§ Viscount Palmerstonwished, before the Speaker left the Chair, to ask a question of the right hon. Baronet the head of her Majesty's Government. As the subject on which he wished to make an inquiry was one to which the attention of the right hon. Baronet had been drawn some time since by his hon. Friend, the Member for the Tower Ham-lets, and as he was sure, that it was one to which the deep and earnest attention of her majesty's Government must have been given, he trusted, that he should be excused for not having given notice of his intention to ask the question, and he was convinced, that the Government would be able at once to give an answer to it—the subject to which it related was the present state of affairs in Spain, the tranquillity of that country being threatened by an irruption from France. Since the time when his hon. Friend had asked a question on this subject, reports had become still more prevalent of an organization going on in France—of enlistments being made, of dépôts being formed out of the Carlist refugees, and of an organization of a very extensive character, and necessarily involving the expenditure of large sums of money. That these things were now going on in France was a matter notorious to all the world; and it was also known that these things were done for the avowed purpose of an irruption into Spain—of an irruption into Spain, for the purpose of forwarding the views of the Carlist party. He could not then doubt, under such circumstances, but that her Majesty's Government had made a strong representation on these matters to the government of 62 France. The right hon. Baronet had stated on a former occasion the general interest which the Government of England took in the present established order of things in Spain, and upon that ground alone such representations would be justifiable. But the Quadruple Treaty constituted still stronger grounds; for although it might be contended that that treaty had been so far worked out that it could not longer be appealed to for the purpose of calling upon the contracting parties to take active measures in pursuance of its stipulations, yet considering that the spirit of that treaty ought to animate and guide the councils both of France and England, that treaty would not only justify, but seemed absolutely to require, that the strongest representations should in the present state of things be made to the French government on the danger now threatened to Spain, originating in proceedings from France, and which the government of France had the power to prevent. Therefore it was, that he could not doubt but that the English Government had made strong representations to the government of France on this subject. Moreover, he took for granted, that the government of France must have given to the English Government assurances that they would use every means within their power to prevent the combination which was now going on in that country from taking effect. He could not believe, that the French government, owing its origin as it did to the popular will—founded as it was upon popular institutions—would lend itself to any conspiracy that was avowedly and notoriously organised for the purpose of controlling the will of the people of Spain in regard to their own institutions, and for setting up an absolute despotism, or that which nearly approximated to despotism, in Spain. But the experience they had had of the power of the French government, to control transactions of this kind within its own territory, must expose it to the imputation of connivance with the transaction to which he referred, if nothing were done by it to prevent the bursting forth of the conspiracy that was now going on. He wished, then, to ask the right hon. Gentleman, whether, besides the assurances to this effect, which he took for granted had been received by her Majesty's Government from the government of France, that all should be done which it was in the power of that government to do, to prevent the 63 conspiracy from taking effect upon Spain. He asked, then, whether her Majesty's Government were aware that the French government had taken any effectual steps for the purpose of carrying those assurances into execution, and for preventing an irruption into Spain for the purpose of promoting the interests of the Carlist party?
§ Sir R. Peel:The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for the Tower Hamlets(Colonel Fox) asked me a question the other night with reference to the reports which prevailed that there was a system of active combination and conspiracy directed against the internal tranquillity of Spain. He stated also, that he had heard rumours, to which he was disposed to give credit, that an active partisan in the late civil war in Spain, General Cabrera, was then in Paris, and actually engaged in organizing a conspiracy. I stated that I had no positive information whatever on that point, that I had heard the report before, but that of course it was impossible for me to answer for a fact of that nature, namely, whether General Cabrera were in Paris or not. It has been supposed that 1 made an assertion to the effect that he was. The hon. Gentleman will recollect that I made no assertion on that point, but I stated merely that I had heard the circumstance mentioned. The noble Lord must excuse me, if the only answer which I can at present consider myself justified in giving to his questions is, that we have maintained since our accession to power the most friendly relations with the existing government of Spain; that we have done all a friendly Government could do to consolidate that government, and by counsel and advice, where such counsel and advice could with propriety be given, to confirm its authority, from a sincere conviction that during its existence Spain has made as rapid a progress in the restoration of peace and the revival of prosperity as could be expected from a country torn so recently by civil dissensions. Sir, that friendly interest in the affairs of Spain, and in the stability of its present government, still continues. That government, I believe, will be the first to acknowledge the cordial interest we have taken in its stability. We have continually done so; and we certainly have made representations to the Court of France upon the subject to which the noble Lord has referred. But he must 64 excuse me if I decline, from a sense of duty, from entering into any further details. I may take this opportunity of expressing a hope that the Spanish people will rally round the Spanish government; that they will forget their party disputes and internal divisions; and, if they have reason to credit the existence of those conspiracies, that they will feel this to be a time when not the influence of foreign governments, but when their own exertions must be directed to maintain the government which rules over them. And, if they do rally round that government, my belief is, that they will be enabled to defy the combinations and conspiracies which are said to be directed against them. Sir, with my opinions in respect to active interference in the domestic dissensions of other nations, I cannot promise more than the sympathy and cordial goodwill of England. But if the Spanish people are animated by that spirit by which a people struggling for independence ought to be animated, they may depend upon it that they will have, on the part of this country, not active intervention, perhaps, but that sympathy and warm interest in their exertions which will enable them to confirm their independence, and to carry their government triumphant through any struggle to which it may be exposed.
Lord J. Russell:Sir, it is most gratifying to find, from the answer of the right hon. Gentleman, that there is but one wish among all parties in England. Both the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government, and, I am sure, the people of this country, desire that Spain should be strong and independent. Neither the Government nor the people of England wish any exclusive power or influence in Spain. All that we desire is, that her power and her institutions may be consolidated, and that she may take her place with that influence which ought to belong to the heroic spirit of her people among the nations of Europe. With respect to the measures which the right hon. Gentleman may think fit to take, after what he has said, I cannot ask him to go into any further explanations at present. Whether the policy of this country should be confined to sympathy—whether, after representations have been made, further steps should be taken, must, of course, very much depend on what is actually done by the government of France. If 65 any troubles that may take place in Spain should bear merely the character of civil war, nothing can be more unwise than to mix in those disturbances; but if it should hereafter appear that any incursion that may be made into Spain is made with the money, the arms, and the resources of any foreign Government, then a different result would follow, and then, I think, a different policy may be pursued by the Government of this country.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, he had understood the right hon. Baronet opposite to declare a general approbation of the conduct of the present government of Spain. One part of that conduct, however, be did not think the right hon. Baronet would be prepared to approve, and that was the cruel persecution which the government was now carrying on against the clergy of that country—not only clergymen who might be supposed to participate in Carlist opinions, and against whom he would not complain that the law should be put in force, but clergymen who had favoured the cause of the Queen, the legitimate Queen, and who had in some instances been lately appointed to high offices,—he would mention one, the Archbishop of Toledo,—persecution was directed against these, as well as others, and the utmost cruelty was exhibited in the mode of the persecution. The law for the seizure of the temporalities of the church, and providing an annual stipend for the clergy, had been carried into effect as far as related to the church property, but the provision had been totally forgotten. He did not complain of that; it was a matter of internal regulation; but he complained that the clergy were required to join in the conveyance of that property. Having stated that they would not resist the law, but leave the officers of Government to seize the property according to law, they were required to take an active part in the conveyance of the property, and he believed that thousands had been immured in prison, suffering the severest privations and the most cruel treatment, merely because they refused to join actively in a measure to which they were willing to submit passively. The matter, indeed, was still worse, for when brought before the courts of justice no counsel were allowed to plead for them; and in one instance where counsel had the courage to appear, the trial was not allowed to proceed, and he was punished for his teme- 66 rity. He did not wish to trespass further on the attention of the House, but this he was entitled to say, that if the present were a case in which he could call for a committee he should be enabled to prove the most unrelenting cruelty existed in these respects under the present government in Spain. If this were a revolution for the purpose of abandoning the religion now professed there and adopting another form of faith he should have nothing to say; but the whole proceeding was precisely that which was pursued by the Jacobinical party of the French National Assembly. It was the subversion of the church, not for the substitution of another, but to turn the ecclesiastical property into the hands of the military, accompanied with the greatest cruelties towards its former possessors. He was quite sure, if the right hon. Baronet were in the possession of these facts, his approbation of the Spanish government would not have gone the length of sanctioning such proceedings. It was in vain for the right hon. Baronet, or any one else, to appeal to the people of Spain to rally around their present government, if the statement he had made of its proceedings were founded in fact. He trusted, on the contrary, the Spanish people would not rally around a government that could perpetrate such enormities.
§ Sir R. Peeldid not express any opinion whatever with respect to particular acts. Nothing, in his opinion, could be so dangerous; nothing could be so presumptuous, as for a Minister of England to undertake to canvass the acts of any foreign government. The very principle of such an interference with the domestic concerns of other countries he would be the first to repudiate. He had expressed no approbation of the individual acts of the Spanish government, regarding this as a question, not of particular acts, but of national interests. Soon after coming into office they found a conspiracy directed against a government with which this country was maintaining amicable and friendly relations. The first overt act of that conspiracy was to make an attack, in the dead of the night, on the palace of the Queen—to attempt by military force to seize on the person of the Queen; and if it had succeeded, be believed the life of that Queen would have been placed in jeopardy—the success of the first attack most probably would have led to the loss 67 of the Queen's life. Her Majesty's Ministers had, therefore, felt they were acting not merely in conformity with the law of nations, but with all the duties imposed on governments maintaining mutual friendly relations, in doing everything that lay in their power to discountenance such wicked efforts, and the possible renewal of such scenes as then took place. They had, therefore, considered it their duty to discourage to the utmost every such attempt, and with this view, to give every aid they could to a friendly government. But with respect to particular acts of any foreign power, he altogether disclaimed the expression of any approbation or disapprobation. Indeed, he felt he should have altogether exceeded his duty if he implied any opinion on such a subject.
§ Mr. Borthwicksaid, from the part which, in former Parliaments, he had taken in respect to this question, he might perhaps be allowed to say two words before the House went into committee. He was greatly relieved, he confessed, by the answer which the right hon. Baronet had given to the question put by the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite, because it appeared from that answer that we should have no more interference with the internal affairs of foreign nations. It might perhaps relieve, in some degree, the anxiety of the noble Lord opposite, when he assured him that General Cabrera had not been at Paris at all, much less for the purpose which the noble Lord had attributed to him; and for Don Carlos himself, it was now pretty generally known that he had published his determination to repudiate individually, and to command his generals to refuse, on his behalf, all participation in any scheme of union between Carlists and Christinos for the purpose of upsetting the present government and placing any other in its stead. For his part, he trusted that neither in the spirit of any extinct treaty—nor of any new convention to be established in imitation of it, would England ever again commit herself by taking any part with a faction or political sect in Spain, or in any other country. He would not, however tempting the occasion might be, obtrude upon the House quotations from speeches which he had made in Parliament some years ago, but he would protest now, as he had protested then, against all interference by this country, in questions which, from their peculiar and domestic nature; were limited by the bounds of the country 68 which they immediately concerned. The natural wealth of Spain was almost without limit. Her moral power, arising from the noble character of her population, was also inestimable. That natural wealth and that moral energy would long ere now, but for the mischievous interference of this country, have developed themselves, to the great advancement of Spanish greatness—of European, of human prosperity. Let England now, in holding out the hand of friendly alliance to that great country, do so in the spirit of a liberal and becoming generosity; let her limit her friendship by no conditions of faction or of party, and he was satisfied that the prophecy of the right hon. Baronet would speedily be fulfilled, in Spanish tranquillity, and, to that extent, European prosperity. It was not often that he had the good fortune to agree with the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Cork, but he would be glad to see the English Government exerting whatever influence she possessed with that of Spain, for the purpose of sparing the further infliction of cruel persecutions upon the clergy of that country. [" That's interference."] Yes, that's interference if you will; but it is not an interference with domestic faction to set aside legitimate succession, it is the interference of friendly advice against notorious injustice, committed by the existing government against a class of men who, Protestant as he was, be could not help admitting had, for the last fifty years, been exemplary in the discharge of their duties and most useful to their country.
§ Colonel Foxwas satisfied that the statements of the hon. and learned Member for Cork respecting the clergy in Spain were greatly exaggerated. There had been no massacre of the clergy, as had been said, under the present government. Ha should like to know a single instance in which that government had acted like the Jacobinical General Assembly, With the exception of one, he believed that none of the clergy had been shut up in prison, and he strongly protested against the statement that any of them had been slaughtered by the Spanish government.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, his objection was still unanswered, and his statements not impugned. The Spanish government had acted like the Jacobinical Assembly in regard to the church property, and he had proofs that several clergymen had been murdered.
§ Lord J. Mannersobserved, that the statements respecting the murder of the Spanish clergy were unfortunately but too true, as in one instance, it was well known that no less than thirty of them had been thrown over the bridge of the Manzanares. He had heard with great satisfaction the principle laid down by the right hon. Baronet in regard to non-interference, and he trusted that the country would have no more quadruple alliances of the concoction of the noble Lord opposite, and no more British legions.
§ Mr. C. Bullerthought the House of Commons had nothing whatever to say to what Espartero did with the Spanish clergy.
§ The Speakerleft the Chair, and the House resolved itself into a committee of