§ On the question that the Speaker do now leave the Chair,
§ Mr. Humerose and said: At this very late hour he wished to know what course the right hon. Baronet meant to take with regard to the votes of supply.
§ Sir R. PeelThe course I mean to pursue, if we resolve ourselves into a committee of supply, is this: notwithstanding the lateness of the hour, I shall feel it my duty to vote the supply for the exigencies of the war in China, and then I propose to go on with the other votes. At the same time, if in respect to any particular vote, like the Syrian vote for instance, there is a general desire that it should be discussed, as has been intimated to me, or if it should be felt inconvenient to take the discussion upon it at this hour, in the same spirit that, I trust, I have pursued the conduct of the public business hitherto, I shall wave that discussion until a more favourable opportunity, and go on with some other vote.
§ Mr. T. Duncombegave notice of his intention, when the House resolved itself into a committee of supply, to move that all the remaining estimates, except those for Syria, Canada, and China, be taken for three months instead of for six months.
Lord J. Russellsaid, the intimation given by the right hon. Baronet was of a course that was perfectly convenient for the House and for the country. He could not conceive that any objection could be fairly brought against it. The right hon. Baronet had candidly professed his readiness to postpone any vote upon which there might be a wish to have a discussion, and therefore he trusted that no unnecessary delay would be thrown in the way of the other business.
§ House in committee.
§ Sir G. Clerk moved that a sum not exceeding 806,566l. be granted to her Majesty for the expenses of the expedition to China.
§ Mr. S. Crawfordwished to ask to what purposes this money was to be applied, as he objected to the carrying on of the Chinese war.
§ The Chancellor of the Exchequerre-plied, that the hon. Gentleman might learn from the papers upon the Table of the House that a great portion of the money had been due to the East India Company for some time, and the rest was another portion of the expenses which had been incurred in India.
§ Mr. Crawfordcould not concur in any vote which would go to the continuance of the war with China.
§ Sir R. PeelI must distinctly state that this country being engaged in war, I shall propose a vote to enable the Government to bring that war to an honourable conclusion. Though it may be consistent for the hon. Gentleman to object to the continuance of the Chinese war, I cannot purchase his acquiescence in this vote by abandonment of that intention.
§ Lord Howickwould not oppose any vote, but he thought it proper at present to abstain from giving any opinion upon the policy of the Chinese war.
§ The vote agreed to.
§ The next vote proposed was for 108,000l. for services in Canada consequent on the late insurrection.
§ Mr. Humesaid, that he had heard from Canada, that the grossest misapplication of public money was going on there. He had moved for a return more than three weeks ago which would have furnished some information on this subject, but it had not been produced. Nothing but jobbery of the worst kind was going on, and he thought, therefore, that they ought not to vote away money without some explanation of the manner in which it was expended.
§ The Chancellor of the Exchequerreplied, that he had told the hon. Member, when he moved for the paper, that it would be difficult to compile, seeing that it required the number of men stationed at different parts of the province to be mentioned, and other particulars which it was impossible at once to supply.
§ Mr. Humesaid, there had been no account rendered of the way in which the last grant had been spent. It was important that the House should know how the money was laid out, what number of men received pay, and what their clothing cost. Until some account of that kind was forthcoming, he hoped the vote would be postponed.
§ Sir G. Clerkremarked, that if the hon. Member wished to have a similar return to those which had been presented to the House formerly, he could have one up to a very late period.
§ Mr. C. Bullerthought, it would be rather more satisfactory if the Government would tell what the vote was for. He did not mean to object to a vote of money to Canada, because it 1370 might be of use; but he thought it would be objectionable to vote away money without knowing the precise purpose to which it was to be applied. It was a dangerous precedent to come down to the House with colonial estimates, and call upon the House to agree to grant several thousands of pounds to pay for an article which the government of Canada ought to pay for. There never was any force in the world in which there was more jobbing than in the militia and volunteer regiments of Canada. There might be a necessity for keeping up such forces; but the Government ought to tell the House what kind of forces they were, their numbers, their pay, their expenses, their constitution and regulations, and what proportion of their charges the Canadians themselves defrayed? When he left Canada [Cheer]—when he saw the quarter whence that cheer came, he was not surprised. His opinion was, from what he knew of the people of Canada, that if the matter were left to them, they would keep up their volunteer force in a very efficient manner which no grant of money could promote.
Lord Stanleysaid, the hon. Gentleman seemed to assume that for a fact, of which there was no proof. He did not believe that there was any ground for the charge of jobbing. He believed that the military force had been exceedingly serviceable during the Canadian rebellion. It was also the opinion of high military authorities in Canada, that it would not be prudent, at the present season of the year, to reduce the strength of that force. The vote now proposed was similar to that which the late Government considered necessary. It had the concurrence of the chief military authorities in Canada.
§ Mr. C. Bullercould not see on what ground the noble Lord charged him with ignorance. He, in his observations on the jobbing practised in Canada, referred to the particular period when he was in that country. He again asserted, that there was in Upper Canada gross jobbing and expenditure of public money during the period of the first insurrection. He had stated nothing to the House which could not be fully supported and borne out by facts. Why, within the space of eight miles in Canada there were (during the period he was in that country) no less than seventeen military colonels; and in one regiment there were fifty officers be- 1371 longing to one family. [Laughter.] He meant they were of one family connexion.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ Mr. Williams moved that the Chairman report progress, and ask leave to sit again.
§ Sir R. Peelsaid, that if the House consented to allow the resolutions to be reported, the committee of supply could not be proceeded with that evening.
§ The committee divided on the motion that the resolutions be reported:—Ayes 21; Noes 200:—Majority 179.
| List of the AYES on the First Division in Committee. | |
| Aglionby, H. A. | O'Connell, D. |
| Bowring, Dr. | O'Connell, M. J, |
| Brotherton, J. | O'Connell, J. |
| Clements, Visct. | Pechell, Capt. |
| Collins, W. | Scholefield, J. |
| Crawford, W. S. | Tancred, H. W. |
| Duncombe, T. | Troubridge, Sir E. T. |
| Elphinstone, H. | Wallace, R. |
| Ewart, W. | Wood, B. |
| Fielden, J. | TELLERS. |
| Johnson, Gen. | Williams, W. |
| Leader, J. T. | Hume, J. |
§ [We give only the Ayes in the first division in committee. The Ayes on the two other divisions consisted of the same Members—omitting Mr. Leader and Mr. Tancred, on the second, and in addition to those two Gentleman, Mr. Brotherton and Capt. Pechell in the third.]
§ Sir G. Clerkmoving that a sum not exceeding 10,000l. be voted for works and repairs in the harbour of Kingston,
§ Mr. Humeat that hour of the night could not accede to any vote of the public money. He moved that the Chairman report progress, and ask leave to sit again.
§ The commitee divided:—Ayes 19; Noes 185: Majority 166.
§ Question again put.
§ Dr. Bowring moved that the Chairman do now leave the Chair.
§ The committee again divided:—Ayes 17; Noes 178: Majority 161.
§ Question again put.
§ Mr. Hawesexceedingly regretted the course the hon. Member thought it right to take. He thought there could be no 1372 difficulty in taking those votes to which there was no objection.
Sheilsaid, these objections of the hon. Member for Montrose had the effect of delaying the Session; and this was a great annoyance to Members who had not their residence in London.
§ Sir R. Peeldenied that he was allowed the opportunity of bringing forward the question of the supplies at half-past four, as a debate which, although it was important, had nothing to do with these matters, had to night occupied the attention of the House until half-past twelve and until this time there was not an opportunity of bringing forward the miscellaneous estimates. He had stated that the public service experienced great inconvenience; and he had voluntarily offered to withdraw the vote for Syria, or any other against which there was any objection. But after taking two votes, the hon. Gentleman moved adjournments to prevent further progress being made. He must protest against such a course. He thought it was too much to ask hon. Gentlemen to devote two or three hours on motions of adjournment; and if such a course were to be persisted in, it would be impossible for the public business to be properly conducted, or for human strength to go through with it. It Was not his wish to use harsh expressions, but he must protest against such a course. He wished to know if the hon. Gentleman's objection to proceed was on account of the lateness of the hour, or for the purpose of obstructing the supplies? If it were for the purpose of obstructing the supplies, the sooner that question was fought the better. He stated that distinctly, not in the way of menace, but for protecting the proper execution of the public business, and for protecting the constitution of this country. There was no consideration which should induce him to propose any measure merely for the sake of obstructing the supplies. If the hon. Gentleman's objection was against the lateness of the hour, and if he understood that on Wednesday next at an early hour they were to go on to consider the miscellaneous votes, he would not object to an adjournment.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ House resumed. Committee to sit again.