§ On the question that the sum of 20,000l. be granted towards defraying the expense of a Model Prison,
§ Mr. Galley Knightcomplained of the expense, while he was afraid, from what had occurred in other countries, that the solitary system would not answer.
§ Lord John Russellsaid, that the hon. Member mistook the object of the estimate which was for a model prison, not on the solitary but on the separate system. It would be unfair to ask the counties to expend a large sum on a system of prison building until the result of an experiment never tried in England had been ascertained.
§ Lord G. Somerset, without pledging himself to the principle, would not object to the amount; but he would prefer the expenditure of a larger sum, in order that the experiment might be speedily brought to an issue.
§ Mr. F. Maulecould assure the noble Lord that no time would be lost in completing the model prison. The foundation stone had been laid two weeks ago, and the works were proceeding as rapidly as possible.
§ Lord G. Somersetwished to know whether parties in the different counties who might wish to inspect the plans of this model prison would be afforded access to them? He wished to know whether facilities would be afforded to architects residing in the counties to inspect those plans.
§ Mr. F. Maulewas convinced, from the well-known courtesy of the gentleman who had the charge of these plans, that he would in such cases afford every proper access to them.
§ Mr. Goulburndoubted the prudence of counties adopting these plans until after sufficient experience. The model prison was adopted as an experiment, and it would be prudent to wait until there was time to ascertain the result. He thought 1189 that the Government ought to take means to have the prison completed at the earliest possible moment.
§ Sir E. Knatchbulldiffered from his right hon. Friend, and did not see any necessity for haste. He very much doubted the policy of this measure altogether. If the counties were to adopt this model it would lead to great expense. The estimate for this prison was 78,000l., and he (Sir E. Knatchbull) was convinced that before it was completed 140,000l. would be expended. He thought that Government ought to re-consider this proposition, and see whether the system of separate confinement could not be tried elsewhere without the expense of erecting a new prison for the purpose.
§ Lord J. Russellsaid, the system had been tried elsewhere. He had called the proposed plan an experiment from deference to those who doubted its efficacy. He had himself no doubt that it was the best system of prison discipline that could be adopted.
§ Mr. G. Knightsaid, that the year before last, in going through the penitentiary, he saw several cells undergoing alterations, and he was told that they were to be used for the purpose of adopting the silent system. He thought that the building of new prisons would throw great additional expense on the counties. The expense of maintaining prisons in the county of Middlesex was already enormous.—Vote agreed to.