Sir Hussey Viviansaid, that before going into the Ordnance Estimates he was anxious to say a few words on what had just occurred. He felt highly flattered by what had been said by his right hon. Friend opposite, as a reason why he ought not to have replied to the charges which had been brought against him. Perhaps, as far as he himself was personally concerned, he ought not to have done so, but his right hon. and gallant Friend could not be aware of the mischief to the academy, which had been the consequence of the propagation of the atrocious reports to which he had alluded. He would now propose the Ordnance Estimates for the year, and in doing so it was not his intention to trespass at any length upon the attention of the House. The estimates of this year somewhat exceeded the estimates of last year, and in the debate on the Navy and Army Estimates, his hon. Friend, the Member for Kilkenny had said, that there seemed to be a sort of esprit du corps among the heads of departments, to see who could make their estimates the highest; he could, however, assure his hon. Friend, that in preparing the Ordnance Estimates the only spirit that had actuated him had been a spirit of economy as strict as was consistent with the efficiency of the department over which he presided, and which would always be with him a matter of the first consideration. The hon. Gentleman had frequently referred to the year 1792, for the purpose of contrasting the amount proposed at the present day with the estimates of that period—now he thought that if his hon. Friend would compare the estimates of the present year with those of the year 1792, he would not find much reason to complain. The total amount of expenditure for the Ordnance department in the year 1792 amounted to 422,000l., from which a deduction was to be made of 21,000l. on account of superannuations, which were then paid by the Ordnance department, and which were not paid by that department at present. This would make the Ordnance Estimates for the year 1792 amount to 400.000l. The present year the expense of the Ordnance had been 1,812,000l., from which, if they deducted the sum of 1,370,346l, on account of services performed by the Ordnance department, and with which it was not chargeable in 1792, they would find that in reality the expense of the Ordnance 1291 department, as compared with that year, amounted only to 442,000l., and when the hon. Gentleman recollected the enormous extent of out colonial possessions he thought he would find that this estimate was not an extravagant one. In the first vote which he should propose for the Ordnance civil establishment it would be found that there was an increase of 23l. over the vote of last year—this arose from an increase in the amount of salaries paid in that department. In the second vote for the Ordnance and Engineering Department it would be found that, as compared with the vote of last year, there was a decrease of 722l. In the third vote for the royal artillery, horse artillery, master-general's department, there was an increase of 1,347l.—this was occasioned by an increase in the rate of pay in that department, and the additional number of artillerymen which had been employed. In the fourth vote for the barrack department, there was an increase of 3,326l. This was occasioned by the addition which had taken place in the number of barracks in the United Kingdom. In the fifth vote, under the head of extraordinaries, there was an increase of 67,000l. This increase was attributable to the increased expense of providing proper comfort and accommodation for the troops in Canada, by the erection of additional buildings, and also by an increased amount of barrack accommodation in the Colonies. There was also an increase of 10,000l. for the erection of barracks at Porto Bello; and in the next case there was an increase of 36,000l. from military and civil contingencies. The army extraordinaries used formerly to supply the augmenting department on foreign stations with articles which were now supplied by themselves. This had taken 40,000l. from the army extraordinaries. On the next vote there was an increase of 19,000l. under the head of stores, 5,000l. of this were for providing percussion arms, as had been alluded to last year; 9,000l. were for an increase in the Ordnance stores, and 4,000l. for an increase in the artillerymen. An increase had taken place in the Commissariat; they supplied different articles, such as boats, for the use of the department in the Colonies, and when two regiments of cavalry were last year conveyed from Ireland to England, it was at the expense of this department; and the consequent increase amounted to 1292 13,000l. The total increase in the whole of the estimates of this year, as compared with those of last year, was 152,566l. The whole expense of this year for the Ordnance department was 1,971,042l. The credits for the present year were 86,000l.; last year they were 93,000l.; consequently, they were this year 7,240l. less; and the total amount of money proposed to be voted for the service of the Ordnance department during the present year was 1,885,042l.
§ Sir H. Hardingewished to ask, if in the case of the barracks in the West Indies, there had been, on the part of the Ordnance department, anything like an accidental neglect in supplying the troops with proper accommodation? He did not for a moment impute intentional neglect, but he would ask his right hon. and gallant Friend, whether that accommodation could not be better afforded by some other department than the Ordnance. He had moved for papers on this subject, which, although laid on the table, had not been printed; and the noble Lord the Member for Northumberland had moved for other papers, which had not yet been produced. He hoped that when those papers were laid upon the table, some discussion on this subject would take place.
Sir Hussey Vivianregretted, that the papers had not yet been laid upon the table. He denied that there had been the slightest inattention on the part of the Ordnance to the state of the barracks, either in the Colonies or at home. His right hon. Friend knew well what were the regulations with regard to the barracks in the Colonies. In every colony there was an officer of the Engineers, whose attention was specially directed to the state of the barracks. It was his duty to make a special report on the subject. That report they got every year. The repairs and estimates were immediately considered, and what was necessary to be done was ordered; and he should not have the slightest difficulty in proving, when the subject came before the House, that no neglect was attributable to the Ordnance Department.
§ Mr. Humethought it was rather irregular in the right hon. Gentleman, who held himself up as the pattern of order and regularity, to introduce this discussion now, instead of when the subject of barracks was under consideration. He could 1293 only express his deep regret to see so large an Estimate, but having voted the Navy and Army Estimates, they must supply the men with arms. It was useless to take any objection now, when new taxes were laid on, then would be the time to grumble. He believed the hon. and gallant Officer conducted his department as economically as any in the service, but he must protest against his allegation, that the present Estimates did not exceed those of 1792. In that year the number of artillerymen was 4,000; at the present time it was 8,800; and how it could be contended that there was no increase, was a paradox he could not pretend to understand. He was not the only person who took 1792 as the standard; three military committees which had sat, had all taken the same view. He meant no reflection in what he was about to say, but until the Ordnance Department was altogether new modelled, which he had hoped to see done before this, be could not expect the expenses to be lessened. He would not allow the estimates to pass without expressing his opinion that our engineers and the officers of the artillery were at present very ill-used. In England nothing was known to the Commander-in-chief of the officers of the artillery, except through intermediate agents, and that he thought derogated from their character, and was injurious to their interests, as there was no opportunity of properly appreciating their merits. He would, therefore, strongly recommend that the artillery should be always under the immediate command of the commander-in-chief, as he thought that change would be attended with the best effects. It was an anomalous circumstance, that when our artillery were sent to the Colonies, they were no longer under the instructions of the Ordnance, but under the authority of the Commander-in-chief, and he thought it would be advisable that that rule should be applied in all cases. He also wished that the officers in question should have an opportunity of being employed on staffs, and of being raised to other lucrative situations. There was an item which he did not wish to let pass unnoticed. He alluded to the management of the stores, for which 38s. per cwt. was paid, and he thought that to be a very large sum. With regard to the barrack department, he should allow that the management of it had been very much 1294 improved, though he could not but say that the expenses of it were still very high.
§ Sir H. Hardingethought the hon. Member had misunderstood his question to his right hon. Friend. He had mentioned that the barracks ought to be conducted by the Ordnance department, and not be under that of the War-office. And his question was with reference to the report of the commissioners recommending' the taking away from the Ordnance department, that branch of its administration, and transferring it to the War-office. When he recollected what was the state of the barracks when under the War-office, he could not help stating that in his opinion the Ordnance department was the best to take charge of them, and that should they be transferred to the War-office, a great detriment to the public service would be the result. He should view with jealousy any attempt which should be made by the noble Lord the Member for Northumberland, to transfer the barracks back to the War-office.
§ Sir De Lacy Evanswould also view any such experiment with great fear. The hon. Member for Kilkenny had spoken of the artillery of this country in comparison with the artillery of other countries. Every military man in Europe acknowledged the superiority of the English artillery. He certainly lamented the restricted opportunity offered to the officers of the artillery and engineers. When the officers of these corps rise to the rank of colonels, their efficient services cease. Should his hon. Friend the Member for Kilkenny think proper to propose something to relieve these officers from this disadvantage, he would be disposed to give him his support.
Mr. W. Attwoodsaid, that as the discussion on the more prominent points of the estimates appeared to have closed, he wished to call the attention of the House to an item in the first vote, which, although it might not seem of great general importance, was one of much moment to the parties interested, and in its consequences not immaterial to the public service. He alluded to the disparity which was manifest on looking at the estimates between the sums charged for salaries for the gentlemen employed in the establishments at the Tower and Pall-mall and those paid to parties similarly occupied at Woolwich. The senior clerks at the former stations 1295 had 900l. per annum, the second class 300l. to 600l., and the junior class 90l. to 300l., while at Woolwich all the clerks employed, senior and junior, were on the scale of from 90l. to 300l. He wished to ask the reason of this disparity. He understood the duties at Woolwich to be as arduous and responsible, and the character of the persons employed and their abilities as good. It was necessary they should understand, not merely the ordinary routine of their office business, but should be thoroughly acquainted with the nature and various applications of the stores under their charge. It would seem, therefore, that if their salaries were sufficient, those paid in London were too high; or if the salaries in London were no more than adequate, those of the Woolwich establishment ought to be raised. He wished to ask the reason of the disparity?
Sir H. Viviansaid, that the difference in the amounts of the salaries to which the hon. Gentleman had referred had existed for many years previous to his accession to the duties of the Master-general of the Ordnance, and arose from the superior duties which the one class had to perform in comparison with the other, and the greater responsibility which attached to their situations. Taking these circumstances into consideration, he could not but consider that the difference in these salaries was fully justifiable. With repect to what had fallen from the hon. Member for Kilkenny, he must recollect that they had fifteen more colonies now than they had in 1792, and that they had of course an additional number of artillery, guns, stores, and other things to send out to them for their protection. With regard to the transfer of the artillery and engineering department from the Ordnance Office to the Horse Guards and the War Office, that was a subject which, in the absence of the noble Lord the Member for Northumberland, he would not discuss. He should, however, whenever called upon by the noble Lord, be able to show to the House that such a proposition would, if acceded to, tend to destroy altogether one of the most efficient departments of the service, and lead to enormous expense.
Mr. W. Attwoodsaid, that much dissatisfaction had been occasioned by the disparity which he had pointed out, and he was desirous to know whether the 1296 attention of the Master-general had been called to the subject. Although the right hon. and gallant Officer said, that the comparative nature of the duties to be performed justified the inequality, he could not but think it desirable that the subject should receive consideration, that some more satisfactory arrangement could be made.
§ Sir H. Hardingeobserved that he had had formerly some experience as to the Ordnance Department, and he could not but rise to vindicate the distinction of salaries to which the hon. Member had referred. The heads of the different departments of the Ordnance were very dependent upon the chief clerks alluded to; and he must say, that he had never found any set of clerks more competent than those of the Ordnance Department, whom he considered to be rather under-paid than over-paid. He could assure the hon. Member that the salaries of the chief clerks at the Tower and in Pall-mall were fully justified by the duties they performed.
Sir H. Viviansaid, that they were well deserving of the commendation bestowed upon them by his right hon. and gallant Friend.
§ Vote, viz., 116,874l. for salaries, &c, to the civil establishments at the Tower and Pall Mall, &c, agreed to.
§ On the question to vote 180,415l. to defray the expences of military and civil contingencies, ordnance surveys, &c.
Sir J. Y. Bullersaid, that he wished to have some information with respect to the dismissal of Mr. Foot, a solicitor to the Ordnance, at Devonport. That gentleman had been many years a solicitor to the Ordnance, and the general impression was, that he had been dismissed in consequence of the part he had taken at the last election for Devonport. He was dismissed after that election, and from that time to this no other grounds had been stated for his removal. He was therefore desirous of having some information from the right hon. and gallant Gentleman upon the subject.
Sir H. Viviansaid, that the hon. Baronet knew as much about this gentleman's dismissal as he did himself. It was not a matter which the Ordnance department had anything to do with; and the first he had heard of it was from Mr. Dawson, whom he had seen the other day at her Majesty's Levee, who had, expressed. 1297 to him his hopes that Mr. Foot had not been dismissed for having given him his support at the election in question. The fact was, that a solicitor to the Ordnance had died, and a new one having been appointed, had, as was usual, the appointment of all the others at the out-stations. It was through these means, he believed, that Mr. Foot's dismissal had occurred; and the Ordnance Office knew no more about it than the right hon. Baronet himself. The first he had heard of it, was, he repeated, from Mr. Dawson himself, and he had stated to Mr. Foot, that he could not interfere in the matter. With respect to the interference of Mr. Foot in the election, he had understood that he had interfered in it; but whether that was the cause of his dismissal he could not tell.
§ Sir H. Hardingesaid, he did not at all like this transaction—and could not see why a new solicitor to the Ordnance was to discard another because he chanced to be of a different opinion from himself. If there should be any change of Government presently—what would take place? Why, that if this was the rule on which this new solicitor chose to act with respect to the political opinions of others, the next Government might dismiss him on the same grounds, and by such occurrences, the public service would be put to inconvenience. This never was the system acted on by the Ordnance Department heretofore, and he very well recollected, that when he was some years ago attached to that office, there was a clerk there, a man of very good conduct and character in his situation, who seldom asked for leave of absence, except at the time when the election might take place at Rochester, where, being himself a Whig, he always voted for the Whig candidate, and no notice was ever taken of the circumstance. He did not think, then, that it ought to be tolerated that this gentleman who was newly appointed to the office of solicitor to the Ordnance should dismiss others from their appointments on the ground of a difference of political opinion—and he should have hoped, that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman, knowing Mr. Foot and his respectability and long services, would have taken the circumstance of so abrupt a dismissal into consideration.
Sir H. Viviansaid, he had never hinted that Mr. Foot had been removed for 1298 electioneering reasons. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman had alluded to a clerk in the Ordnance, who, though voting against a Government candidate, was not interfered with; and he (Sir H. Vivian) could tell his right hon. and gallant Friend of the case of one of the Government clerks at Devonport, who, when he was a candidate for that borough, had voted against himself—and no notice was taken of the circumstance by the Government.
§ Sir E. Knatchbullsaid, that he agreed with his right hon. and gallant Friend, the Member for Launceston, that it was in the power of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite, to see if the cause alleged for this gentleman's dismissal was the right one or not. This gentleman had served in the same situation for fifty years, and was a man of high character and respectability; and when Mr. Smith, the late solicitor to the Ordnance was appointed, he did not find it necessary to act as the present solicitor had done, and to remove Mr. Foot. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman had not been able to avoid saying, that that gentleman had interfered in the election against the Government candidate, and he could not but think it would have been more becoming in the right hon. Gentleman if he had looked into the case and ascertained the true cause of his dismissal.
Sir H. Viviansaid, that Mr. Foot did not hold an official appointment. The appointment was one which rested entirely with Mr. Hicknett, as solicitor of the Ordnance, and that department, had nothing whatever to do with it. All the Ordnance did was to say to Mr. Hicknett that he should do the business, and of course he was to get it done in the best way he could. Mr. Hicknett alone was responsible to the Ordnance, and with respect to the dismissal of Mr. Foot, all he could say was, that he was not aware of the ground on which it proceeded.
Colonel Ansoncould assure the House, that till he had seen the matter alluded to in the public papers, he had known nothing of the removal of Mr. Foot. What had been the motives which had induced the solicitor of the Board of Ordnance to transfer the business to another agent, he could not tell, but he could not agree in opinion with those who stated, that Mr. Foot had been dismissed from political considerations. The solicitor to the Board. 1299 had, perhaps, his own friends, whom he wished to employ, but at all events, he could not believe that Mr. Foot had been removed because of his political opinions. He should be sorry should such have been the case, and he should regret much if such a principle were acted upon, as he thought persons holding official appointments ought to be perfectly free to express their political opinions.
§ Mr. Humethought the question before the House one of very great importance. In his opinion, no person ought to be punished for an expression of political opinions, and he could not think it proper that any one holding official appointments under the Government should be dismissed from office for voting at an election according to his own views and sentiments. If such a pernicious principle were generally acted upon, the consequences would be most serious both to individuals and to the public service. He hoped they would never follow the example of the United States, where a clean sweep was made, whenever there was a change in the Government, It was the duty of the House to guard against such a proceeding ever taking place in this country, and he would offer a very simple remedy for their consideration. If the House would agree to adopt the system of vote by ballot, no person would be dismissed for political opinions, as the votes of individuals could not then be ascertained. When the question of vote by ballot next came before the House, he should claim the votes of hon. Gentlemen opposite, who complained o the dismissal of Mr. Foot.
Sir T. Aclandsaid, the hon. Member for Kilkenny would certainly not have his vote in favour of the Ballot. He sincerely rejoiced, that the Board of Ordnance had had nothing to do with this transaction. He at once acquitted the right hon. Gentleman, the Master-genera of the Ordnance, of having taken any part in the dismissal of Mr. Foot. The Ballot was not the proper remedy for evils of the nature, and he thought the best protection for official persons expressing their political opinions, was the public and genera reprobation which Mr. Foot's dismissal bad received. That Gentleman was upwards of 70 years of age, he was a person of the highest respectability, and had for the long period of 55 years, been honourably employed in the public service. Why then, bad he been dismissed? Surely, 1300 there was good room for inquiry in such a case as this. He would read Mr. Foot's own statement to the House. That gentleman said:—
Most true it is, that I have had the honour of acting as law-agent to the Board of Ordnance, and their town solicitor at this place, for 55 years last past.Now, it was contended that Mr. Foot's appointment was not made by the Government; but, surely, the solicitor to the Board of Ordnance, the inferior officer of he Board, ought to be responsible to the head of the department for turning out of office an old and faithful public servant. Surely, the Master-general had a right to call upon the solicitor, whom he did appoint, to explain the reasons which had induced him to dismiss Mr. Foot, against whom no charge had ever been brought. The House bad a perfect right to call upon the right hon. Gentleman to institute an inquiry into the motives of the solicitor for the dismissal of this gentleman. Why, he would ask, was it that Mr. Foot immediately after he had been canvassed for the Government candidate, and after he had voted at the election for the Conservative candidate, had, without any intimation, been deprived of the taw business of the Board of Ordnance? Had there been any complaint against Mr. Foot? Let them hear Mr. Foot's own statement on this point. He said:—During that very long period (of 55 years) I have conducted a great variety of law business (I hope I may be excused for saying) so satisfactorily, that the Board never, on any, the most important occasion, deemed it necessary to send down their solicitor to direct or assist me.He added further:—After this statement, it may seem almost needless to add, as the fact is, that I never received the slightest indication or expression of the Board's or their solicitor's disapprobation of any one act done by me in my office; and that there never was any objection made to any one item in my professional bills of costs when presented for payment, though by the rules of the board, they were always very strictly examined.What, then, was the cause of Mr. Fool's dismissal? Mr. Foot said;—Thus circumstanced as I have been with the Board and their solicitor, for more than half a century, it remains only for me, most reluctantly, to confirm the current reports, and to state, that in consequence of myself and 1301 son having given our votes at the last election for Devonport in favour of Mr. Dawson, and against the Government candidate, Mr. Tuffnell, the law business of the Ordnance and barrack department has been withdrawn from us and bestowed on another, without the slightest intimation to us on the subject.Such was the statement of Mr. Foot, who was not a hot, violent man, for till the present time, he had never been, as he believed, canvassed at an election, or disturbed in the exercise of his political rights. He knew Mr. Foot well, as an old political supporter of his, and, he must say that he should have been guilty of great ingratitude if he had not stated, that to his own knowledge, he was a gentleman of the highest respectability and honour. He acquitted the Master-general of the Ordnance of having taken any part in the dismissal of Mr. Foot; but he thought the right hon. Gentleman was bound, in duty to himself, to ascertain whether political motives had induced the solicitor to the Board of Ordnance to transfer the legal business of the department from that gentleman to another agent.
Sir H. Vivianhad one word to say. He thought the hon. Gentleman opposite was mistaken in saying that Mr. Foot had been canvassed by Mr. Tuffnell. So far was Mr. Tuffnell from canvassing Mr. Foot, that he said nothing to him, that could be considered a canvass. There was a gentleman present when they met, who said, that there was a mistake in supposing that Mr. Foot had been canvassed. He would say again, that the appointment did not rest with him, and he questioned whether Mr. Foot had ever any communication with the Ordnance Department.
§ Viscount Palmerstonthought that the discussion of that evening would give great satisfaction to the public. It was certainly satisfactory to hear the warm and indignant terms in which hon. Gentlemen opposite had expressed themselves at a supposed interference of a person appointed by the Board of Ordnance with the individual whom he might think proper to employ as his agent in consequence of a vote which that individual had given at an election. It had been fully established by the Master-General of the Ordnance that the Board of Ordnance knew nothing of Mr. Foot's appointment or dismissal. He was appointed by the solicitor of the board, who selected his agents on his own 1302 responsibility, and without consulting the Board of Ordnance. The appointment of Mr. Foot's successor was, therefore, the selection of one private individual by another, with which selection the Board of Ordnance had nothing whatever to do. The solicitor was the person who was responsible to the Board for the transaction of its legal business, and the Board had nothing to do with the agents whom the solicitor might appoint. This discussion, however, would not be without effect, and he had been much consoled by the warmth of the expressions of hon. Gentlemen opposite, because he was sure that when the reports of that night's proceedings went forth to the public, the public would perceive that there would be no more any improper interference with the exercise of the political franchise. They would no longer hear, after what had that night taken place, of tenants dismissed from their farms by their landlords in consequence of voting against their candidates; they would no more hear of persons ejected from their houses in towns, for the conscientious exercise of their political rights, and tradesmen might now sleep soundly, free from all apprehension of losing the custom of the rich, should they act on their own views in the election of Members of that House. He therefore hoped that all tenants in the country, that all householders in towns, and that all tradesmen, would read with attention the remarks which had that night fallen from hon. Gentlemen opposite. He was anxious to give protection to every one in the exercise of his political rights, and as he could not agree with the hon. Member for Kilkenny in supporting the ballot, he felt the greatest satisfaction at what had that night passed in the House.
§ Sir T. Fremantlesaid, the noble Lord had acted perhaps wisely for himself and the Government in endeavouring to distract the attention of hon. Members from the real question before the House. There was a great difference between the ejectment of tenants and the removal of persons employed in the public business from situations which they had long held, and with the duties of which they were fully conversant. There was no analogy betwixt the two cases. If the noble Lord had been present from the commencement of the debate, and if he had known that Mr. Foot had been for fifty-five years the agent at Devonport for the solicitor of the 1303 Board of Ordnance, he would not have attempted to make the House believe that this was a private appointment, of which the Board of Ordnance knew nothing. For his part, he thought the House ought not to rest satisfied with the explanation which had been given of this transaction, and he must say that in his opinion some further inquiry ought to take place. The Master-general of the Ordnance had come down to the House prepared to combat several statements which had been made in the newspapers, and he would ask him why he had not also prepared himself to meet this charge, which had been so much canvassed, and while the conduct of the Ordnance had been generally condemned? The Master-general had said he could not tell why Mr. Foot had been removed, but he must tell the Master-general that he had neglected his duty to this highly respectable gentleman, in allowing him to be dismissed without making any inquiries into the cause of his dismissal. Mr. Foot had stated, that he had lost the business of the Ordnance in consequence of the vote which he had given, and he thought the House had a right to ascertain whether, and how far, this system was to be extended, and it would only have been justice to Mr. Foot, a faithful servant of the public, to inform him what the grounds were upon which he had been discharged. If it was upon political grounds, that would be a satisfaction to that gentleman, as he would then know that there was no charge against his conduct. It had been stated by his hon. Friend, the Member for South Devonshire, that the clerk of the Ordnance had canvassed Mr. Foot previous to the election, and solicited his vote in favour of the Government candidate. That was an important circumstance, because the Master-general of the Ordnance had said, that the Board of Ordnance knew nothing about Mr. Foot's appointment; yet they found that he was here brought into connexion with a clerk of the Ordnance before the election took place. He hoped, that on bringing up the report of the committee, the hon. Gentleman opposite would be able to state fully the history of this transaction, for no one could say that an explanation was not necessary.
Colonel Ansondid not believe that Mr. Foot had been dismissed from political considerations. Broad assertions had been made by hon. Gentlemen opposite in re- 1304 ference to this matter; but he could only repeat, that the Board of Ordnance had had nothing whatever to do with the transfer of the business from Mr. Foot.
Sir J. Y. Bullerhad made no assertion which he was not prepared to support. He had written to a friend of his to inquire into the circumstances of the case, and the answer he had received fully bore out the statements contained in Mr. Foot's letter. As to Mr. Dundas, his Friend stated, that that gentleman had made minute inquiries as to the amount of Mr. Foot's emoluments, and, having ascertained what that amount was, that he had then canvassed him in favour of the Government candidate. He also understood, that the solicitor to the Board of Ordnance had appointed a conveyancer in the room of Mr. Foot, and that that gentleman had been obliged to call in a solicitor to his assistance, so that it was likely the country would have to pay for both.
Colonel Ansonsaid, the fact was, they would have to pay for neither. They would only have to pay the solicitor appointed by the board.
§ Sir H. Hardingeobserved, that it was most important that the solicitors engaged for the Ordnance department should be retained in the public service, the duties not appertaining to the ordinary business of a solicitor; and in no instance that he was aware of had a dismissal taken place except from professional incapacity. Now, this gentleman had served for fifty-five years in the Ordnance department, and therefore some urgent reason should have been given for his dismissal.
Mr. Tuffnelsaid, that he should like to offer a few observations upon this subject, in which it must be supposed that he was in some degree interested. Allusions had been made to the conduct of Captain Dundas in this matter, and it had been said that Captain Dundas had been his right-hand man at the election. Now he begged to deny that such was the case, for in reality Captain Dundas had been in Devon port only two or three days during the canvass, which canvass had lasted during two months. With regard to Mr. Foote, there was no doubt that he had been canvassed. He believed, that he had gone to Mr. Foote himself, as he had gone to every one else. He meant to say nothing at all against the conduct of that gentleman, for be believed, that he was fully 1305 entitled to the very high character which he had received from hon. Gentlemen opposite. He was sincerely rejoiced that this discussion had come, because it gave him an opportunity, by the explanation of a fact, to contradict many of those assertions which had been made. He had looked into the votes which had been given at his election, and had referred to those of the members or officers of all the public departments which had been given. Of these public officers 170 had voted in his favour, and 150 for his opponent; so that the suggestion of Government influence having been exerted in his favour was distinctly negatived. The majority which he had obtained was clearly that of the borough and not of Government officers.
§ Sir E. Knatchbullsaid, that the hon. Gentleman had stated his belief, that no Government influence had been exercised in the Devonport election, and to that belief he was entitled. But the noble Lord had entered upon a strain of glowing eloquence, such as the House did not often hear, and had certainly afforded good ground for the suspicion, that there was something rotten in the transaction. He wished to know why it was thought necessary to make this appointment at the precise moment of the election.
Sir H. Vivianrepeated, that in the appointment of the local agents the Board of Ordnance had no right to interfere.
§ Sir De L. Evanssaid, that it had been repeatedly declared officially, that these gentlemen were not the officers of the Ordnance. The death of the previous solicitor was coeval with the election, and the appointment was free from suspicion.
Sir J. Y. Bullercomplained, that a person named Colman, the printer for the Ordnance at Devonport, who had also voted for Mr. Dawson, had been likewise dismissed. A man named Underwood, who had charge of one of the Ordnance hoys, and who had voted for Mr. Dawson, had been removed to Woolwich and separated from his family.
Sir H. Vivianstated, that Underwood's removal to Woolwich was not in the slightest degree connected with politics, and that of the case of Colman he knew nothing.
§ Vote, with several other votes, agreed to.
§ House resumed.