HC Deb 19 March 1840 vol 52 cc1250-4
Viscount Morpeth

said, that in pursuance of the understanding when the poor-law passed, that the mendicity clauses should be embodied in a separate bill—in pursuance of the reports of the Poor-law Commissioners, and particularly of the resident commigsioners—and, lastly, in pursuance of the suggestions of many large bodies, and many boards of guardians already formed in Ireland—he now rose to ask for leave to bring in a bill for the suppression of mendicancy in Ireland. The present laws upon this subject in Ireland were liable to these objections and to these practical defects, that their definitions were obsolete and uncertain, or that they subjected the parties to such severe penalties as to defeat their own object; they gave the extreme punishment of transportation for vagrancy; and such was their severity, that, being repugnant to the feelings of the people, they could not be enforced. In the present bill, he had adopted so much of the vagrancy law of England as related to the suppression of mendicancy, without incorporating that portion of the English law which related rather to matters fit for a police code, than to the subject of the Poor-laws, He had endeavoured to make the law as simple, and the penalties as mild and as consistent as the difficulties of the subject would allow. His object wag to relieve the proprietors, and the most poor of the proprietors, from the double charge of those to which they were now, for the first time, subject under the Poor-law Act, and those to which, at all times past and now, they were subject under a regular and organised system of mendicity, acting partly on an appeal to their benevolent feelings, and partly on the fear of mischief or injury from persons refused, or the dread of divine vengeance from a refusal to give alms. The bill which he proposed, would not apply so strongly to the wealthy class, or to the absentee proprietors; their lawns, and parks, and avenues, were sufficiently guarded against the intrusion of the mendicant's footstep: but it was in the cabin, that was most open to the winds of heaven, that was most open also to the mendicant's prayer. It was the meal that was composed of potatoes, that was, as he feared, the oftenest shared by the wandering stranger. Was it his wish to prevent these acts of charity and of benevolence? He had no such wish, the House had no power so to act; the current of charity was too deep, too universal, and too strong to be stopped by human law; but he wished to put under some control, and some check of the central body in Dublin, or of the resident magistracy, the regular and unprincipled trade of mendicancy, which too extensively prevailed in several parts of Ireland, where the most destitute were brought to contribute largely to the support of regular mendicants. He knew, that there were many difficulties to contend with; he was aware, that much might be said on both sides; he did not disguise from himself the difficulty of making alms-begging liable to punishment, in a country where the law gave no absolute right to relief; he proposed, however, to make it punishable only when the workhouses in a district should be built, and so long as the workhouses were able to contain all those whom the guardians should deem proper objects of relief; and on balancing the whole of the arguments on both sides, it did appear to him, that the balance leaned towards an Act putting under control professional mendicancy. He allowed, that there were doubts upon the minds of many persons; he did not wish to hurry the bill through the House; he would lay it upon the Table; and before he proceeded further with it, he would give full time for its being attentively considered by all, and especially by the Irish community; and with this intention he trusted there would be no opposition made to his obtaining leave to bring in the bill.

Sir R. Peel

asked whether it was proposed under this bill, to tolerate a system of mendicancy when the workhouses were full, which was forbidden when there was accommodation for the poor in those workhouses?

Viscount Morpeth

replied, that the penalties under this bill, only applied to parties taken up in the act of begging in districts where the workhouses were capable of receiving them.

Sir R. Peel

But supposing the workhouse in any particular district to be full, and that it would be impossible to receive any more inmates, would mendicancy be in that case tolerated in that district?

Viscount Morpeth

said, that in such a case, no alteration was made in the law as it at present existed. There would be no penalties where the workhouses were incapable of receiving inmates.

Sir R. Peel

observed, that it would be extremely difficult to fix the parties with a knowledge of the workhouse being capable of receiving inmates. The noble Lord had used the word "disorderly." Did he mean by this, the act of demanding alms accompanied by violence? If nothing more than this was meant, then the bill would afford no relief to the smaller proprietors—those who were now exposed to affecting appeals to their benevolence—appeals which they were always very ready to give ear to.

Viscount Morpeth

said, that in using the word "disorderly," he referred to the asking of alms in any manner prohibited by the enactments of this bill.

Mr. Shaw

was glad to hear from the noble Lord, that he meant to give full time for the consideration of this bill, upon which such great doubts existed. In reference to what the noble Lord had said, however, as to the understanding, with regard to this measure, at the time of the passing of the Irish Poor-law Act, he begged to remind the noble Lord, that the object of those who advocated the postponement of any enactment on the subject of mendicancy, was not merely to obtain separate bills, but to afford time for a full observation of the operation of the Poor-law in Ireland, before any attempt was made directly to suppress mendicancy.

Mr. Lynch

supported the motion, It was impossible that there could exist two sorts of relief in Ireland—one in-door relief, according to law and the other out- door relief, according to the established custom of the country. Yet such would be the case, unless some such measure as this was passed.

Mr. M. J. O'Cannell

said, that the great objection to the Irish Poor-law was, that while it took away what had been truly described by the hon. Member for Galway as out-door relief, according to the custom of the country, it did not substitute outdoor relief according to law. The object of postponing this question had been to afford time for observing the operation of the Poor-law in Ireland, yet three weeks had scarcely elapsed since the establishment of the first union workhouse in that country. With so short an experience of the operation of that law, this bill was very premature. It would be much better to let the present system continue in operation a year longer before introducing such a measure as this.

Leave given.