MR. SHERIFF EVANS.

HC Deb 03 March 1840 vol 52 cc850-7

Viscount Mahon

before the House proceeded to the regular business of the evening felt bound to state to them some circumstances which had come to his knowledge, and admitted of no delay, and which be hoped would receive immediate and attentive consideration. On that morning he received a message from a Mr. Freeman, who, he since understood, was a medical gentleman of the highest character and respectability, residing at No. 21, Spring-gardens. Mr. Freeman stated to him that he was the professional attendant of Mr. Sheriff Evans, and that Mr. Sheriff Evans was suffering under a complaint of the liver. He further stated, that Mr. Sheriff Evans had been used to an active life, and that on undertaking the office of sheriff he could not have foreseen the circumstances in which he had since been placed. Mr. Freeman went on to say, that further confinement would be not merely dangerous to the health but dangerous to the life of Mr. Sheriff Evans; and stated expressly, that he conceived the life of Mr. Sheriff Evans to be in danger from further confinement. Under these circumstances, looking to what the House had determined in the case of Mr. Sheriff Wheelton, he thought that if Mr. Freeman's statement proved to be well-founded, the House must come to a similar determination. He had, therefore, requested Mr. Freeman to be in attendance at the House about five o'clock, for the purpose of being examined; so that if anything which he had now stated to the House were exaggerated or erroneous, it might be set right; and if, on the contrary, his statements were correct, that they might rest on the professional authority of a medical man. Having stated this circumstance, he should leave the case in the hands of the House, fully trusting, as an assembly of British Gentlemen, having commenced whatever measures they meant to pursue for the defence of their privileges, and whatever opinions they might entertain on such measures—that, as an assembly of British Gentlemen, they would never be found unmindful of the claims of sickness or the duties of humanity. If there were no objection, he would move that Mr. Freeman be called in and examined at the Bar.

Mr. Warburton

hoped that the question would not be brought forward that evening; but if the noble Lord intended to call for the evidence of which the noble Lord had spoken, that he would give notice. He thought that on the last occasion the House had been taken by surprise. They all felt exceedingly sorry, as individuals, for the inconvenience to which the sheriffs had been subjected by their confinement; but it was on general principles that they thought it necessary to subject those gentlemen to confinement. Take any oilier case. Suppose the two individuals, confined in Warwick Gaol, in consequence of a riot at Birmingham. It was proved, by correspondence which had been laid before the House, that the health of those two individuals had been most seriously endangered. What was the course pursued by the Government upon the representations which were made? The surgeon of the gaol was the person appointed to investigate and inquire into the health of those individuals. It was only after very long continued representations of the bad health of these individuals that the medical adviser, who had been accustomed to visit them was allowed, as a great indulgence, to have access to the prisoners to examine into their stale of health. He would, therefore, beg of the House to observe the difference between this way of treating prisoners in custody for offences against the laws when their health was endangered, and the summary mode of proceeding which was now proposed. He trusted that the noble Lord would give notice of his motion, that Gentlemen might have an opportunity of knowing that it would come on, and of considering the best mode of proceeding, whether they were disposed to support or oppose the motion. It was not fair that the motion should be brought on without previous notice. The noble Lord had not ventured to say, that there was any immediate danger to be apprehended; and if the life or health of Mr. Sheriff Evans was not in any immediate danger, the noble Lord had made out no case for pressing his motion now.

Lord John Russell

said, that the hon. Gentleman who had just spoken, had correctly represented the usual course of proceeding with prisoners convicted of crime. If a representation was made of life being in danger, it was referred to the surgeon of the gaol; and upon the statement of the surgeon of the gaol that a prisoner's life was in danger, there was no case in which there was not indulgence granted or a remission of the sentence. The hon. Gentleman was also right in stating that they had not similar evidence here. Certainly there was no one that he knew of as an officer of the House, whom they could employ on a similar occasion. He thought the House should now pursue one of two courses. He was ready to agree with one or the other. They should either pursue the course recommended by the hon. Member for Bridport, and have the medical person examined to-morrow, or, what he thought would be for some reasons preferable, the medical person should be now examined, and that his evidence should be taken down. The noble Lord, the Member for Hertford, having stated that the illness was a liver-complaint, and therefore not like a sudden fit requiring immediate relief, the evidence might be printed and taken into consideration to-morrow. It did not seem that the lapse of twenty-four hours could make any very great difference with regard to the sheriff's health. Of the two courses, he thought it better that Mr. Freeman should be called in now, and his evidence taken.

Mr. O'Connell

said, it must be recollected that this gentleman could obtain his own liberation at any moment, and it would be no disparagement to him to submit to the authority of the House. He thought that such being the state of the case, putting forward the present plea, in the shape in which it was brought before the House, was ludicrous. A man like Vincent, if he could obtain his liberty in the same way, would not hesitate to do so, by the acknowledgment of his offence; but this gentleman need make no such acknowledgment. Let the House be good enough to recollect that one of the last proceedings of the sheriff's had been a perfectly voluntary one against the privileges of the House. There was an attachment in the hands of the coroner, which was not returnable until the 19th of April. It ordered the sheriffs to pay the money in their hands over to Stock-dale; and notwithstanding that they might have waited till the 19th of April, they volunteered to pay the money to Stockdale at once, apparently to furnish an argument to their advocates in that House, that having paid the money once, they ought not to be asked to do it again. The only way of enforcing the privileges of the House was by imprisonment. If it was to be got rid of on the allegation of ill-health, by any person who still continued his contempt towards the House, while he knew that his liberation upon submission would be instantaneous, the maintenance of their privileges would be impossible. It was not the House which now detained the sheriff, but his own willfulness. At the present moment he did not even come forward with a petition. There was no application from him. He did not come forward stating any scruple of conscience, and at the time representing his ill-health, and leaving his case in the hands of the House. If he understood the noble Lord, he was not even authorised to make the communication which he had made by Mr. Sheriff Evans. The noble Lord got his information from a third party, who volunteered the statement He respectfully submitted to the House that their power of maintaining their privileges was a mockery if they suffered them to be frittered away in this manner.

Viscount Mahon

was sorry that the plea which he had put forward should appear ludicrous to the hon. and learned Gentleman; but he would venture to say that it would appear so to no other man in the House but himself.

Mr. O'Connell

submitted that the expression of (he noble Lord was not in order. It was certainly exceedingly uncivil.

Viscount Mahon

had understood the hon. and learned Member to repeat the word ludicrous, and apply it to the proceeding before them. He should now repeat, and the Speaker would correct him if out of order, that he believed such an application would appear ludicrous to no other Member of the House than the hon. and learned Member for Dublin. With respect to the request made by the hon. Member for Bridport, he should only say that he could not consent to any postponement of his motion. He felt that the House should proceed immediately to receive information with regard to the health of the sheriff. With regard to further proceedings, he submitted that they would be in a better state to decide upon the question when they had professional evidence before them. He should, therefore, most certainly persist in his motion.

Mr. O'Connell

, in explanation, said the noble Lord had totally mistaken his ap- plication of the word ludicrous. It occurred to him, that the proposal of the noble Lord was ludicrous, inasmuch as it a third person came forward lo make a representation of the sickness of an individual, that individual having it in his power to make that statement himself. He thought the manner was just as ludicrous as the matter, and he was not surprised at it, for it was well known that a more ludicrous individual than the noble Lord was not in that House.

Mr. Warburton moved as an amendment, that the further consideration of the question be adjourned till to-morrow.

Sir M. Wood

said, to his knowledge, Mr. Freeman, Sheriff Evans's medical attendant, had visited him regularly for the last ten days, and he was most anxious that some proposition should be made to the House. He believed that the resolution passed for the relief of the other sheriff was one for which the most substantial grounds existed; that gentleman had since been extremely ill, and been unable to attend to his duties. He knew that Mr. Sheriff Evans was very ill, and for the last few days had been considerably worse. He did not wish to buy his freedom by the payment of 640l., and he hoped the House did not mean to sell it for that sum. The sheriff thought himself justified in all he had done, and he would not bend to the House. He did not come forward to ask relief, because he did not choose to incur the same charges that were made against the other sheriff. He already told the House that if, in the execution of his duty, he had done anything to offend the House, he deeply deplored it. What did the House want of him more? Did they want him to go down on his knees? He hoped and trusted the sheriff never would do so. Instead of being anxious to pay the money, and oppose the wish of that House, he had retained it as long as he possibly could. The coroner had sent the sheriff notice that he had orders to attach him, but why had he not gone and served the notice himself? Why, because he was afraid to do so—he was afraid of being placed in the same situation. It had been proposed to let this inquiry stand over until to-morrow; why was this delay proposed? The gentleman might be dangerously ill, and he knew the medical man felt great anxiety on the subject. He hoped the House would agree to the noble Lord's motion.

Sir E. Knatchbull

regretted that the hon. Baronet, who had just sat down, had followed the unwise course of the hon. Member for Dublin, in going into the merits of the question. The conduct of the sheriff ought not to be mixed up with the question before the House. He more especially rose for the purpose of noticing the expression of the hon. and learned Member for Dublin, to which he was almost ashamed to advert—the expression used towards his noble Friend, that he was the most ludicrous person in the House. He thought the hon. and learned Member would not be able to satisfy his own mind of the propriety of having used the expression, and he trusted he would offer the explanation which was due to his noble Friend.

Mr. Hume

said, that the noble Lord had made a charge which affected his hon. and learned Friend's sensibility. No one would refuse to liberate the sheriff if he were in immediate danger; but the question was, whether he ought not to approach the House by petition, or whether he should be liberated on the statement of a Member of the House, who had not seen the sheriff himself, but taken his information from somebody else, and then brought forward the case without notice. He submitted that, after what they had done in the attempt to protect their privileges, and particularly after the observations of his hon. Friend below him (Sir M. Wood), they ought to require a petition from the sheriff.

Sir Robert Peel

said, that they ought to keep perfectly distinct the consideration of the particular grounds on which this proposal was made, from the general question. There might be some Gentlemen who thought that the sheriff had sufficiently expiated his offence to the House, and was entitled to his discharge. Let that question be distinctly brought forward. But nothing could be more discreditable than to seek to get rid of a supposed difficulty, by pretending to release a sheriff on the score of indisposition, unless they were satisfied of the reality, of the plea. He would rather vote for the discharge of the sheriff on the ground of sufficient punishment having been inflicted, than seek to get out of a situation of embarrassment by releasing the sheriff on the ground of indisposition, unless he was satisfied that the indisposition was such as to necessitate the release. But the simple question now was, whether the physician should be examined at once or to-morrow. His noble Friend said, that the medical adviser of the sheriff had reason to believe that not only his health but his life was in danger. That was his noble Friend's statement, and the question being, whether they should examine the medical adviser today or tomorrow, he thought it better to examine him at once. When they heard the evidence they might determine whether to release the sheriffs at once, or postpone the question, or decide that there was no ground for release. If they were prepared to examine the medical adviser at all, he certainly would prefer an immediate examination to the postponement. In saying so, he expressed no opinion whatever of the course it might be advisable to pursue when they heard what the examination was. He did not commit himself in the slightest degree as to the course which he would take after hearing the evidence. He was satisfied that the House would administer justice on this occasion, on the same principles on which it would be administered in any other case in which illness was put forth as a reason for remitting punishment.

Mr. Warburton

was not prepared to examine a medical man, and he believed that very few persons in the House were qualified to do so. He believed the hon. Member for Finsbury was not present. If that hon. Gentleman was disposed to examine the medical man, he ought to have an opportunity, by postponement of the examination till to-morrow. However, he was not disposed to go against the sense of the House, if it was in favour of immediate examination.

Amendment withdrawn, original motion agreed to.

Mr. Freeman

called in, and examined. He stated in answer to questions, that he was the medical attendant of Mr. Sheriff Evans, and had seen him professionally that morning. His health was very bad.—His life in danger by further confinement.—He was suffering under a liver complaint, and had been for several years.—He had been accustomed to an active life. He (Mr. Freeman) was a surgeon, and had been the medical attendant of Mr. Sheriff Evans for seven or eight years.—He had been more frequently well than ill.—He had attended him professionally about two or three months before. Since he prescribed for him some days had elapsed. He takes physic daily; had been taking it about a week or a fortnight. His disease was a liver complaint, and was growing worse under his confinement. His life would be in danger if his imprisonment were continued. The liver had not been enlarged since his confinement. No other medical man had been called in. There was no active inflammation of the liver, nor did he apprehend any immediate inflammation: he did not think that being allowed air and exercise, and then to return to the House of Commons would answer the purpose, as the sheriff's mind was suffering. The sheriff was allowed to take wine, and he occasionally took a glass of sherry. He had not been confined to his bed at all. Sheriff Evans was not aware of his being summoned there today, and there had been no communication between them on the subject. The witness was induced, from the circumstances themselves, to make his present representation of the matter, without consulting Mr. Sheriff Evans; he did so because he thought that there would be danger to Mr. Evans in the present confinement. Sheriff Evans could take the air by walking in the cloisters, but he did not say that he took advantage of it, on account of the easterly wind. Witness had desired him to take as much air and exercise as he could; and, considering the weather, he took as much exercise as he could.

Witness withdrew.

Viscount Mahon moved that the evidence be printed with the votes, and taken into consideration the next day.

Ordered.