SUPPLY—PUBLIC EDUCATION. (Hansard, 24 July 1840)

§ Mr. Goulburn
said, that after the discussion which this vote underwent on a former occasion, he felt it impossible to let it pass without making one or two observations. He admitted that by the new arrangements made known by the minute in council recently laid before the House, particularly with respect to the inspection of schools, there had been, since the last discussion, the greatest possible improvement made. So also with respect to another point—namely, the necessity of submitting to Parliament cases which might be deemed extraordinary, in which the pecuniary assistance was not to be proportioned to the contribution made by the party applying for the assistance, was also a great improvement, and removed many of the objections he had formerly entertained against the vote. At the same time, although he felt that the system was so altered as to render it possible for him to give his willing acquiescence to the grant, he still retained those objections he formerly expressed as to confiding the management and superintendence of the whole education of the people to a lay commission, composed upon the principle of recommendations by the Government. He felt that on a question involving the interests of all classes it would have been expedient and more advisable that it should have been regulated rather by an act of the Legislature, than by a discretion vested in a board, constituted as that was by which this pecuniary grant was to be administered.

§ Lord John Russell
said, that the few observations made by the right hon. Gentleman, rather applied to the plan of last year. He had spoken of it as a plan to regulate the whole education of the country. It certainly was not such. If it were, he should agree with him that it would be matter for legislation rather than for a vote in a committee of supply. The present plan was based on this—that they should take care that those schools to which the public money was given, were under proper inspection. Objections having been made to the former schemes proposed, it had been finally arranged, that no person should be appointed an inspector without the approbation of the Archbishop of Canterbury, or the concur- 976 rence of the Archbishop of York in respect to appointments in his province. These two most rev. Prelates had, upon this arrangement, agreed that the inspection should extend to the whole matters of instruction taught in the schools, as well religious as secular. His belief was, that although this plan did not extend to the whole education of the people, great advantages would be derived from such inspection, and that the greatest possible benefit would ultimately accrue to the country by the gradual extension of education among the people.

§ Mr. Langdale
complained of the very limited benefit to be derived from this grant to that religious part of the community with whom he was more immediately connected. There were upwards of 100,000 poor Irish belonging to the Roman Catholic religion within this metropolis who were entirely destitute of the means of education. These were neglected in their youth, and yet it was complained of in the public prints that the gaols were crowded with Irish adults, who were said most unjustly to participate in this grant. But the natural consequence of neglecting youth was to fill the gaols. What was the resolution which had been come to by the Middlesex magistrates, as it appears in the prints of the present day? In the last Session, he had proposed a measure to enable the Catholic clergy to receive a salary as chaplains of gaols, but it was objected to in another place. A memorial had been since presented to the Home Department, showing that nearly one-third of the persons in the metropolitan gaols, were of the Roman Catholic religion, and praying that a minister might be appointed for those prisoners that were subjected to restrictions for the purpose of reformation. The same reason that had induced them to refuse the benefit of education to these unfortunate men in their infancy, induced them also to refuse religious instruction to those in prison. If there was any remnant of good in these individuals, it was their adherence to the faith of their ancestors; and then, instead of availing themselves of the opportunity afforded of fostering this remnant of good, the first thing they made them do was to apostatize from their religion, and then they were surprised that they returned to society the same miserable individuals as they entered the gaols. They knew that 977 their gaols were filled with persons of one particular class of religion, and they knew that it was one of the principles of their faith, that they do not accept the religious services of other religious bodies; and yet they only allowed the interference of their own clergymen, upon the special application of the prisoners themselves. Upon the apprehension of death, these parties might send for a minister; but it could not be supposed, that under other circumstances, they would voluntarily send for him who was their dread. Instead of this course, they ought to give every facility for religious instruction. These were the grounds on which he felt it his duty, however painful it might be, to make these observations; he knew the opprobrium that was cast upon those with whom he was connected, and the petitions that had been presented against this grant last year had but one burden, and that was to attack the Roman Catholics most undeservedly. He did not blame the Government for not doing more; he knew the fear, the danger, and the apprehension they had of the very name of Roman Catholics; but he did not wish it to go forth to the public, that they were sharing in this bounty equally with others, and then that these very parties formed a great portion of that community which remained in the unfortunate situation already described. In regard to the last minute of the council, he thought it was perfectly right that the clergy of the Church of England should have the superintendence of the religious instruction of those that belonged to their body; but whilst he admitted that, he claimed for himself the same right which he was ready to give to another; and, considering the situation in which a large class of the poorer portion of the community were placed, not only in the metropolis, but in the large manufacturing towns, he thought that something might be done.

§ Mr. Baines
said, they had heard much of Church destitution, but of Catholic destitution they had heard little, and, considering the condition of a large part of the population, he thought that they ought to have heard much more. There was one question, however, which he wished to ask before the vote was agreed to, and it was—whether the inspectors of schools, over whose appointment the archbishops were to have a veto, were to inspect the schools conducted by religious 978 denominations not belonging to the Established Church?

§ Lord J. Russell
said, that the appointment of inspectors with the concurrence of the archbishops, related entirely to such schools as stated themselves to be in communion with the Church of England. There would be other inspectors appointed for other schools, but at the same time, if the inspectors appointed for the Church schools should visit districts in which there shall be other schools, and if the managers of the schools should not object, he could see no reason why the inspectors of the Church schools should not inspect the others.

§ Viscount Sandon
wished to express his own satisfaction, and he believed the general and united feeling of every religious society, at the arrangement which had been made between the noble Lord and the head of the Church. He was only too gratified at being able to state the united feeling of the committee of the National Society, that the heads of the Church, in whose hands, without reserve, they had placed the arrangement, should have made an arrangement which to their minds was so satisfactory. He was sure that they were all imbued with one common object.