§ Lord John Russellmoved for leave to bring in a Bill to carry into effect, with certain modifications, the fourth report of the Church Commissioners.
§ Sir Robert Inglissaid, the noble Lord could not surely be intending, at a period of the night within a quarter of an hour of the usual time of adjournment, twelve o'clock, to introduce a measure designed to effect various extensive and important changes in the constitution of the Church.
§ Lord John Russellthought, there was no necessity for being so delicate as his hon. Friend opposite seemed to think proper, since the measure he proposed to introduce was originally recommended by a church commission appointed by the right hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth, and of which the right hon. Gentleman and other Members of his administration were Members. After the right hon. Baronet retired from office, several Members of the present Government sat on the Commission, the clerical Members of which continued the same. On the report made by that Commission, a bill formerly introduced into the House was founded; and he now proposed to bring in a measure nearly similar in its provisions. He did not think it too much to ask leave, even if the time were an hour later, to introduce a bill founded on such authority, because he did not think that the House could at any time refuse to entertain such a bill, and allow it to be printed, in order that its principle might be fairly considered. The measure was founded on the fourth report of the Church Commissioners, the whole of which he proposed to recite in the preamble. Some alterations had been made 1114 in a further draft of the report, which he proposed to embody in the Bill; but these had been chiefly adopted at the request of the deans and chapters; and therefore he did not think they could be fairly objected to by the House. He was not now about to repeat the statements he had made to the House, when the former Bill was brought in, which had now been nearly three years before the public. The chief alteration made by the Commissioners on reconsideration was, to recommend that patronage, instead of being taken from the deans and chapters, and given to the bishops at once, should be reserved to the deans and chapters, so long as any person belonging to the chapter remained alive. This alteration had been made in compliance with the desire of the deans and chapters, and no objection, he thought, could fairly be made to the Bill on that account. The draft of this further report to which he alluded was prepared, when, in consequence of circumstances which he need not mention, the meetings of the Commission were broken off, and at last the Commission came to an end in consequence of the demise of the Crown. He did not now intend to bring in a bill containing word for word, or letter for letter, the propositions of the Church Commissioners. There were two points on which he proposed to add to those recommendations. The first regarded the persons who were to carry the act into effect. According to the act regulating the incomes of the bishops, persons holding certain official stations, together with those archbishops and bishops originally named, were appointed Commissioners for that purpose. As this Bill would confer great power over the administration of the property of the Church, it seemed to him right, that the number of Commissioners should be increased. A complaint had been made to him, that the number of laymen was too great, which he proposed, in some respect, to remedy. He proposed, that the Crown should have power to nominate five persons to sit on the Commission, of whom three should be Members of the Church of England. This was a power which might be, but need not necessarily be exercised. He proposed, likewise, that there should be some limit to the incomes of the deans, and other members of the chapters, as there was now by Act of Parliament a limit to those of the archbishops and bishops. In the very 1115 few cases in which the incomes of deans exceeded 2,000l., he proposed that the surplus should be set apart to the augmentation of small livings, and in the few instances where that of a canon or prebendary exceeded 1,000l., that the surplus should be devoted to the same object. These were the only modifications of any consequence affecting the recommendations of the Commissioners which he should propose; the rest of the Bill was to carry into effect the original proposals of those Commissioners, which, in their opinion, would tend very much to the augmentation of small livings, and the increase of religious instruction in populous places, where there was now a very great deficiency. When the Bill came to be read a second time, he would go more generally into the subject of the reforms proposed or effected by this, and other measures in the constitution of the Church; and he would then be happy to meet his hon. Friend, the Member for the University of Oxford, in considering the whole question. The noble Lord moved for leave to bring in the Bill as above.
§ Sir Robert Inglisthought, his noble Friend was almost the only Minister who would not, under the circumstances, have either made a fuller statement to the House, or made it at a more seasonable hour. The objections he entertained against the Bill, announced by the noble Lord, were, perhaps, stronger than those he had felt against the Bill he had brought in last year. He could never be reconciled to a bill, hostile to the constitution, perhaps to the existence of the Church, by any acquiescence in the spoliation of ecclesiastical property, which might be obtained by any boon offered in the measure to a particular class of proprietors. He felt it his duty to declare, as strongly as he could, his decided and unalterable aversion to the Bill. It was, in itself, injurious, and was one of a series of measures opposed to the best interests of the Church.
§ Mr. Gladstonehoped, that before the second reading of this Bill, ample time would be given for consideration, as the question involved was one of daily increasing interest, and required the most mature deliberation.
§ Leave given.