HC Deb 09 July 1838 vol 44 cc33-6
Mr. Leader

had to call the attention of the House to a paper which had been laid on the table relative to the expenses of Captain Mitchell's mission to the Peninsula. All those who had read the excellent work of Colonel Napier were aware, that for the purposes of his work he wished to see the maps and plans of Captain Mitchell. He had been referred to Sir George Murray, who refused to let him see them, and never since had he been able to obtain access to them. These maps and plans had been paid for by the public money; they should have been deposited in a public office, where the public might see them. But now he understood, that these maps were about to be published as a private speculation. He wished to know if this were correct?

Viscount Howick

had a very simple answer to give to the hon. Member. All the information he possessed was contained in the return which was before the House. The transaction had occurred long before he was in office.

Mr. Hume

had moved for a return, in order to ascertain whether the maps and plans were public property or not, as he considered it a matter of great importance. It appeared that nearly 5,000l. had been paid out of the public purse for preparing these plans. He did not grudge the application of the money, but the public ought to know what value they had received for the money, and he thought it was the special business of the Government and of the Secretary at War, were public property got out of the proper channel, to ascertain what had become of it. He thought there was neglect somewhere.

Viscount Howick

said, that this subject was one upon which the War-office had no authority whatever, and it was therefore, totally out of his power to make inquiry on the subject. The original authority for the expense had been given by the Treasury of the day. The Secretary at War had not been consulted, and there had been no correspondence with the Secretary at War. A direct authority was given to the Commander-in-chief to incur the expense. The maps had never been in the custody of the War-office, and as Secretary at War he had no authority, and no responsibility on the subject.

Sir H. Hardinge

believed, that these transactions were twenty-three years old, and he was, therefore, not aware of the details, but there was one statement which the noble Lord made which seemed to him objectionable. The noble Lord seemed to say, that the Secretary at War could not be expected to give information upon military expenditure which had not passed through his own office. Why, almost everything that was expended passed through other channels, but the Secretary at War was always considered as one of the organs of the administration in that House, and when a question was put affecting his department he was always expected to give some explanation. It was, he thought, the province of the Secretary at War to afford explanation when the conduct of a general officer was brought before the House. These expenses had been incurred under the authority of the Treasury, and if the noble Lord had applied to Sir George Murray for the necessary explanation he would have experienced no delay. But the noble Lord refused any explanation, because the matter had not passed through his office. Under these circumstances he objected to the mode of answer given by the noble Lord, and he thought, that the noble Lord ought to afford the information required, and to state, whether he approved of the plans, whether he considered them public property, and whether they ought to be transferred into the hands of a private publisher, or published at the public expense? He thought it was competent to the noble Lord to give answers on these points.

Viscount Howick

said, that the right hon. Baronet had not quite correctly alluded to what had previously fallen from him. He did not refuse to give information, but he said, that he had already given all the information he possessed or could procure. He had laid Sir George Murray's own statement on the table. That was the only information he could obtain, and he would tell the right hon. Baronet why he could do no more. He did not wish to express an opinion upon the acts of his predecessors, but if the right hon. Baronet called upon him, as he had, for an opinion on the subject, the only opinion he could give, and he gave it very reluctantly, upon a transaction in which so distinguished an officer was concerned—his most distinct and decided opinion was that the transaction had been highly irregular. Those plans being made at the public expense ought to have been placed in some public office. Whether that office should be the Ordnance, or the Royal College at Sandhurst, or the Quartermaster-general's office, he was not prepared to give an opinion; but that in some public office plans made at the public expense ought, from the original time of their formation, to have been deposited, was undoubtedly his distinct opinion.

Sir H. Hardinge

would only observe, that the plans had never been finished, and it would, therefore, be useless to have deposited them in a public department.

Viscount Howick

And the officer who had to finish the maps was employed in New South Wales. He thought, that these maps and plans ought to have been deposited, not in the custody of an individual officer, but in some public department; and the right hon. Baronet knew as well as he did that there were various departments in which they might have been deposited, which were independent of the War-office, and subject to no control from the War-office. He believed, that the best that could be done was now doing, and that the arrangement with respect to publication was the best that could be made; but the original transaction namely, incurring these expenses without the knowledge of the Secretary at War, was, in his opinion, a most irregular and improper course.

Sir H. Hardinge

would not prolong the discussion, but remind the House that Sir George Murray had incurred a great loss of time and trouble in placing the troops in those plans, and that they were not yet completed. Did the noble Lord mean to say, that these plans were not perfectly at the disposal of the public, or that Sir George Murray would not give them up if required? The only reason why they had not been given up was, that Sir George Murray, being deprived of Captain Mitchell's assistance, could not complete the plans, nor could he put the troops in till they were completed. They could not prevent a public officer like Captain Mitchell from going abroad, although the public service might suffer.

Subject dropped.