HC Deb 10 May 1836 vol 33 cc816-7
Mr. Thomas Duncombe

said, that he did not feel disposed to accede to the suggestion of the noble Lord for postponing his motion relative to the Parliamentary Surveys of the Church Lands; preserved in the library of Lambeth Palace. Those documents were of the greatest importance now that the question of tithes was under the consideration of the House, inasmuch as they formed the connecting link between the value of that property to which they referred as given in the King's books and its actual value at the present time. They had been made by order of the long Parliament—consequently they were the property of Parliament, and moreover the Archbishop of Canterbury admitted, that they were deposited with him—that he was the keeper of them—for the Parliament. He thought it necessary that they should be in every hon. Member's hands, embracing as they did much valuable information on a subject under discussion in Parliament, in place of individuals having to pay two guineas for a single extract to the Archbishop's Secretary, which they were now obliged to pay He did not see how any objection could be made to his Motion, and he trusted he should have the House with him in making it. The hon. Member concluded by moving for a copy of the Parliamentary Surveys of Church Lands, preserved in the Library of Manuscripts at Lambeth.

Lord John Russell

thought the Motion was unnecessary, as, according to his hon. Friend's own statement, these documents were not difficult of access to any one. In the next place, he saw no more reason for copying them at the expense of the country than he did for copying the parish registers of any part of the kingdom, or those documents of a similar nature in the Rolls Chapel, the Tower, and other depositories of them. If his hon. Friend's motion was acceded to, it would afford a plea and a precedent for other hon. Members to move for other records of the same character; and, in the end, all the records in the kingdom might be moved for by that means. The noble Lord concluded by moving, as an Amendment, that the Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into a Committee on the Tithes Commutation Bill, be read.

Mr. Hume

expressed his surprise at the disinclination of the noble Lord to consent to the production of these papers. They were Parliamentary documents, and, therefore, ought to be in possession of Parliament. In his opinion it was extremely desirable that they should be produced.

Mr. Jervis

maintained the expediency of producing these surveys.

The Attorney-General

would not deny that they were public records, but objected to their being printed by an order of that House. It would be equally reasonable for any hon. Member to move that Doomsday Book, which was public property, should be printed, and laid upon the Table of the House.

Mr. Evelyn Denison

opposed the motion, because he thought it absurd to call for the production of twenty quarto volumes, which must be copied and printed before they could be laid before the House, and which, if the information they contained were of any value at all, ought to be in the hands of Members at the present moment.

Mr. Thomas Duncombe

replied, that his motion went merely to have the papers laid upon the Table of the House. He had no wish to cast a reflection on any one, particularly the Archbishop of Canterbury, but he thought that these public documents should be in the possession of the House. He felt that the production of them was of so much importance, that he should certainly take the sense of the House upon the question.

The House divided on the original motion—Ayes 40; Noes 99:—Majority 59.

List of the AYES.
Aglionby, H. A. Parrott, J.
Barnard, E. G. Parry, Sir L. P. J.
Bewes, T. Pease, J.
Blamire, W. Philips, M.
Bowring, Dr. Potter, B.
Brocklehurst, J. Power, J.
Buckingham, J. S. Rundle, J.
Crawford, W. S. Scholefield, J.
Gaskell, D. Strutt, E.
Grote, G. Talbot, J. H.
Gully, J. Thompson, Colonel
Harvey, D. W. Trelawney, Sir W.
Hawkins, J. H. Trevor, hon. A.
Hodges, T. L. Wakley, T.
Horsman, E. Warburton, H.
Jervis, J. Whalley, Sir S.
Kemp, T. R. Williams, W. A.
Lushington, C. Wyse, T.
Maher, J. TELLERS.
Marsland, H. Duncombe, T.
Mullins, F. W. Hume, J.
Palmer, General
List of the NOES.
Alsager, Captain Longfield, R.
Baring, F. T. Lushington, Dr.
Benett, J. Mackenzie, S.
Bernal, R. M'Taggart, J.
Blackburne, I. Martin, J.
Borthwick, P. Maule, hon. F.
Brownrigg, S. Meynell, Captain
Buller, C. Miles, W.
Buller, E. Moreton, hon. A. H.
Buller, Sir J. Murray, rt. hn. J. A.
Byng, rt. hon. G. North, F.
Campbell, Sir J. O'Ferrall, R. M.
Cayley, E. S. Pelham, hon. C. A.
Chetwynd, Captain Philips, G. R.
Childers, J. W. Plumptre, J. P.
Clerk, Sir G. Poulter, J. S.
Cockerell, Sir C. Powell, Colonel
Colborne, N. W. R. Pryme, G.
Compton, H. C. Pusey, P.
Crawford, W. Rice, right hon. T. S.
Crompton, S. Ridley, Sir M. W.
Curteis, H. B. Robinson, G. R.
Curteis, E. B. Rolfe, Sir R. M.
Denison, J. E. Rooper, J. B.
Donkin, Sir R. Rushbrooke, Colonel
Dottin, A. R. Russell, Lord J.
Eaton, R. J. Sanford, E. A.
Ebrington, Lord Scott, Sir E. D.
Elwes, J. P. Somerset, Lord G.
Estcourt, T. Stanley, E. J.
Fergusson, rt. hon. C. Stormont, Lord
Finch, G. Strickland, Sir G.
Fleetwood, P. H. Thomson, right hon. C. P.
Fleming, J.
Folkes, Sir W. Townley, R. G.
Forbes, W. Troubridge, Sir E.
Freshfield, J. W. Vere, Sir C. B.
Gordon, hon. W. Verney, Sir H.
Goulburn, rt. hon. H. Vernon, G.
Greene, T. Vivian, J. E.
Hogg, J. W. Vyvyan, Sir R.
Howick, Lord Weyland, Major
Jackson, Sergeant White, S.
Jones, W. Wilbraham, G.
Knatchbull, right hon. Sir E. Wilkins, W.
Wood, Colonel
Knight, H. G. Wrightson, W. B.
Knightley, Sir C. Wrottesley, Sir J.
Lawson, A. Yorke, E. T.
Lennard, T. B. TELLERS.
Lincoln, Earl of Hay, Sir A.
Long, W. Steuart, R.