HC Deb 01 May 1834 vol 23 cc402-5
Mr. Barron

rose to bring forward his Motion with regard to Education in Ireland. He was desirous of inducing the Commissioners to follow up a more liberal scheme than their now narrow means would permit. The means for effecting this would be found in the tithes in Ireland. The contrast between Ireland and America with regard to national education would best exhibit the deficiency of the former country. The number of persons going to school in America was one in four; in Norway and Sweden one in five; in the Netherlands one in five; Switzerland one in eight; in the Southern part of Germany one in four; whilst in Ireland it was but one in forty. This was a lamentable state of things, and to this were owing many of the misfortunes by which the country was afflicted. In every country where education was neglected, in the degree of that neglect was the debasement, the brutality, and almost the savageness of the country. It was from the want of such education, that the government of Ireland was found so difficult, and the greatest advantage would result from the establishment of national schools in that country, to which all those who availed themselves of them should pay in proportion to their means. To equalize her with the growing intelligence of Europe, Ireland would want 3,500 schools; whilst, in fact, several parishes, varying in population from 7,000 to 10,000, were without any schools. To furnish the necessary degree of education, a sum much more than Parliament could grant would he requisite; but by his plan a single shilling would not be required from Parliament. It was well known, that those who received the tithes were bound by an act of Parliament, at this moment in existence, namely, the 28th Henry 8th, to keep schools; and, on their induction to their parishes, they were bound by oath to act in conformity with this Act. The schools were established to teach English, under penalties of, for the first offence 6s. 8d.; for the second, 20s.; and for the third, the penalty was forfeiture of the benefice. Now, without interfering with any Parliamentary grants, the money could be thus raised:—There were 747 parishes, in which were no churches; there were 150 benefices, in which no service had been performed for three years past: these would amply supply more than the sum required; nor would it be in contradiction to the original intention with which these appointments were made, that those who held them should undertake the education of the people. The money would thus revert to its legitimate purpose, and law, justice, and the interests of the people, called upon the clergy to make the sacrifice. Now, an average of 20l. on every parish, according to its size, would leave 4,800l. per annum, and this would be fully adequate to the purpose. This plan proposed to invest the powers of governing this fund in the same Commissioners who now existed, authorizing them to borrow, if they thought fit, such sums as might be necessary for the first, which, of course, would be the greatest outlay. Thus the people would receive education out of funds clearly their own, their right to which had never been disputed, and of which they had never been deprived by Act of Parliament. Thus a saving of 44,500l., the sum now granted for the purpose, would be made to the country. On the advantages of education it would be unnecessary for him to dilate: Spain, Portugal, and Russia, put in comparison with the United States of America, best evinced its advantages. He would not trespass longer upon the House to press a subject sanctioned by such authorities as Dr. Chalmers, Dr. Doyle, Dr. Bell, and though last not least, Lord Brougham. He would therefore move, 'That a Select Committee be appointed to devise means for extending the present system of education in Ireland, by establishing one or more national schools 'in every parish, and a model or normal school in each province of that country, without any grant from Parliament. 1. And therein to inquire whether, in the first place, sufficient funds may not be derived from the ecclesiastical tithes in Ireland, without injury to religion, to provide for the education of the poor; and, 2ndly, whether such appropriation of a part of this property would be in accordance with the ancient usage, accompanying its possession, and with several Acts of the Legislature.'

Mr. Richards

seconded the Motion. He agreed with his hon. friend, that the revenues of the Church could not be more beneficially applied, nor in a manner more consistent with the objects for the promotion of which they were originally bestowed. He could only attribute the thinness of the House on such a question to the confidence which he supposed was felt by hon. Members in the anxiety of Ministers to support any measure calculated to improve the condition of Ireland.

Mr. Littleton

thought, that the absence of those hon. Members who usually took great interest in all subjects affecting the welfare of Ireland might be taken as a sufficient indication, that they did not think such a measure expedient at the present time, or at least in its present shape. He was the last man not to admit the great advantages which a liberal system of public education would confer on Ireland; nor was there any question which he would support with greater spirit or with greater zeal, than the system of national education in Ireland, introduced by his right hon. friend near him (Mr. Stanley), which already had exercised a most powerful and beneficial influence in that country. 140,000 children were now educated in these schools, and he believed, that the steps already taken were only preparatory to more extended measures for the diffusion of its advantages. He did not wish to call on the House to give any opinion on the question. He thought it could be more advantageously discussed to-morrow, when the grant to the Irish Education Commission would be proposed; and he believed that, under all circumstances, he should best consult the feeling of the House by moving the previous question.

Mr. Feargus O'Connor

said, the absence of Irish Members might be accounted for by the fact, that the hon. Member's Motion was impracticable, and could not be carried into effect. The Motion was premature. The hon. member for Waterford had better have waited till the Government grant was proposed. He should therefore vote against the Motion.

Mr. Barron

attributed the absence of Irish Members on his Motion to a very different cause. It was because he voted only for men when he thought them right, and against them when he thought them wrong. It was because he would not suffer himself to be influenced by factious motives. Whenever, therefore, he came there to fight even in the same cause for which they fought, he was not supported by them, because he would not belong to their faction. Not wishing to run counter to the sense of the House, he would withdraw his Motion.

Motion withdrawn.