§ Sir Samuel Whalleypresented a Petition from the vestrymen of the parish of St. Pancras, Middlesex, calling the attention of the House to an Act which passed in the last Session for the removal of paupers to Scotland and Ireland at the expense of the counties from which they were removed. By this measure the rates of Middlesex had been increased almost tenfold; and that county, which was not agricultural, had the whole burthen of the removal of the Irish paupers thrown upon it, to the relief of the midland and agricultural counties, which alone reaped the benefit, if there was any benefit, from the labour of those paupers. The petitioners did not wish to throw back the burthen on the agricultural counties; but they thought, as the influx of Irish and Scotch paupers was a national grievance, the expense of their removal should be paid out of the Consolidated Fund. Heretofore the cost of the removal from the county of Middlesex was 5s. per head, but by the new law the expense was raised to 32s. per head at the very outset. The Magistrates of that county, no doubt with the most laudable intentions, had adopted a new plan for removing paupers; but although they had succeeded in greatly diminishing the numbers, still the expense to the county was very largely increased.
§ Mr. Benettsaid, that the hon. member for Marylebone had made a most extraordinary assertion when he said, that London was not the market to which the Irish labourers came to dispose of their labour. If he would make inquiry, he would very soon find, that nineteen-twentieths of the 432 paviors, navigators, and other hard-working labourers of London were Irishmen. He was sure, if it were not for the Irish labourers, there would be a great dearth or labour in London, and the price of it would rise greatly. They had nothing to do with the counties through which they passed, upon which it would be hard to throw the burthen of passing them back from London, perhaps twice a-year. The hon. Gentleman ought to remember also, that, if London had to bear the burthen of these Irish labourers, it had the benefit of the expenditure of the Irish Members.
Mr. Alderman Woodsaid, that this was not the time for discussing this subject. If his hon. friend, the member for Marylebone, were to move, before he brought forward his Motion for the repeal of this Act, for a return of the expenditure of which the petitioners complained, he would find that half the amount might be set down as the consequence of the improvident bargain made by the Middlesex Magistrates. There were vessels passing, constantly to Ireland which would take the paupers the very day they received them from the officers, and at 15s. a-head, whereas, he understood that 32s. was the price now paid. It appeared, that the Magistrates originally contracted for 15s. passage money, with 1s. per day whilst they remained on board. It was, besides, stipulated that if any escaped, half the passage money of each person so escaping should be returned. He would beg attention to the fact, that in January, 1833, no less than 438 vagrants had been passed by London and Middlesex to Ireland, while in January, 1834, they amounted only to thirty-nine. It was a mistake to suppose, that the labourers of London were those who were passed back to Ireland. That was not the case. The persons who came here for the purposes of haymaking, large numbers of whom generally found employment in Kent, were the classes who were sent back to Ireland. These men generally carried away 5l. or 6l. concealed about their persons, and, he recollected, in 1817, he had about seventy of them in the Mansion-House, and found that each of them had sums of money concealed.
§ Mr. Humewas perfectly well aware, that the petitioners were respectable persons; but he believed, that they were mistaken. The Vestrymen of Marylebone, who, he was bound to say, generally took 433 a liberal view of things, appeared to him, in this instance, to have taken one of a quite contrary nature. He had attended the meeting of that body, and it was then admitted, that the number of paupers passed now was, in proportion to that passed heretofore, as seventeen to forty-three. A Magistrate of the Borough had also acknowledged to him that there were only five paupers in the workhouse waiting to be passed to their respective countries. And yet with these facts before them the Vestry persisted in presenting this petition. With respect to the measure itself, it had been long admitted, that some remedial enactment was necessary; and he thought the present one a fit and proper experiment to be made on the subject. It had been argued, that if an experiment were made, it should be made at the expense of the public; but if that were the case, the motives for economy would cease, and the experiment would fail. That it had hitherto been successful, he had the fullest proof, in the Returns made by the Clerk of the Peace, of the numbers passed, at periods previous and subsequent to the obtaining of this measure. He believed the abuses of the Poor-laws would become the ruin of the country if they were suffered to continue. This was, however, an experiment to obviate one of those abuses, and, consequently should be hailed with satisfaction and delight by all who wished to avert that consummation. He hoped that the House would not alter the measure.
§ Sir Edward Knatchbullwas inclined to believe, that the Act in question had produced much good, but there was one defect in it which he wished to bring before the attention of the House, namely, the fact, that all paupers were to continue in the hands of the constables until they were placed on board the vessel appointed to carry them to their respective destinations. Petition laid on the Table.