§ The House went into a Committee of Supply upon the Navy Estimates,
§ Sir James Graham, in proposing the first vote for the expense of the Admiralty, said, that he felt great pleasure in announcing to the House, that, notwithstanding the reduction of 7,000l. which had been made under this head last year, a still further reduction of 17,000l. was made in the present Estimates, together with the sum of 5,000l. arising from fees, which had been altogether abolished; thus showing a reduction under this head during the last two years of not less than 29,000l. He had also the pleasure to inform the House that the balance-sheet for the last year was now upon the Table of the House. It would show that the estimates for the last year had not been exceeded; but, on the contrary, that there was a considerable balance remaining out of them. The right hon. Baronet concluded by moving, that the sum of 104,070l. should be granted for defraying the salaries of officers, and contingent expenses of the Admiralty for the year 1833.
§ Mr. Humesaid, that as the House had already decided upon the amount of men to be employed, which involved the general question of reduction, he would not 123 trouble it by calling for a division upon any of those resolutions. The right hon. Gentleman had certainly made a great many reductions. The changes had been so great, and the consolidations so numerous, since the right hon. Gentleman had come into his present office, that it was impossible to say exactly what would be the result of the whole; but, as far as they went, he was inclined to believe that they would be useful. The amount of reductions effected was, he admitted, very considerable. The general scale of reduction, however, adopted by his Majesty's Government in the different establishments of the country was much too contracted. The noble Lord opposite must have recourse to much more extensive reductions. Such was the opinion of every individual with whom he (Mr. Hume) conversed upon the subject. Indeed, none but those individuals who were connected with the Government seemed to think it possible to keep up the existing establishments. As the House had already decided as to the number of men to be employed, it would be doing no good to endeavour to cut off this or that vote in the Estimates.
§ Sir James Grahamsaid, as far as the number of men were concerned, a large majority of the House had already declared it necessary. The amount of the forces must always be guided by the circumstances in which the country was placed. He hoped that next year the necessity for keeping up so large a force would not exist. The hon. Member was exceedingly desirous to guard Government against an increase of expenditure; but he would beg to remind that hon. Member, that, excluding the half-pay, and those items over which his Majesty's Government had no control, there had been a decrease in the last two years of not less than thirty per cent in the expense of the effective service, and that service, he believed, was more efficient than before.
§ Resolution agreed to.
§ The next Resolution was, that 21,725l. be granted to his Majesty to defray the salaries of the officers and contingent expenses of the Navy Pay Office.
§ Mr. Humeasked, whether the expense of sending money to the outports could not be saved? He saw, in the estimate, a charge of 275l. for messengers accompanying the money to the dockyards. Of that he did not complain so much, but there was a further sum of 2,000l. charged, 124 which he considered as so much money wasted. The marines were paid by bills, which the different bankers paid, and he did not know why the seamen could not be paid in the same manner.
Mr. Poulett Thomsonhad given the subject his best attention, having once supposed, like his hon. friend, that a considerable saving might be made; but he found that the business was now carried on at the cheapest rate possible. The bankers would not undertake to send the money unless a deposit was placed in their hands, and a commission given them. If, indeed, the Bank of England had any branch banks at the outports, the business might have been easily arranged. In the Act establishing the branch banks of the Bank of England, a clause was inserted forbidding these branches from making any payments, except where the branch was actually established. There was a branch at Exeter, but there was none either at Portsmouth or Plymouth; and therefore it was impossible to make an arrangement such as he had contemplated.
§ Mr. Humewished to know how the business was done now? Were notes or gold sent down to pay the seamen?
§ Mr. Humethought, with the large balance which the Government had in the hands of the Bank of England, means might be found to pay the seamen without the expense of remitting the money. He supposed, if 20,000l. were lodged in the hands of the bankers at the out ports, they would undertake to provide the money whenever it was wanted.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ The next Resolution was, that 22,109l. be granted to his Majesty to defray the salaries of the officers and the contingent expenses of the scientific department of the navy.
§ Mr. Humethought that this was the opportunity he ought to lake to bring the case of the students of naval architecture before the House. The returns, however, which he had moved for had been so recently completed, that they were not yet printed. He therefore was not able to lay the case of the young men, who he thought had been very hardly treated, fully before the House. He would only say, that while other nations were diligently 125 making a progress in naval architecture, we seemed to be retrograding. Other countries thought it necessary to keep up their scientific establishments, but we were destroying ours. He thought at least, that the men who for twenty-six years had been bred up to this profession, who were not only good practical shipbuilders, but well acquainted with all the science connected with their profession, he could not help thinking that it would have been wise to have formed such a body of men into a small board, rather than break up the establishment altogether. At present no plan was followed in building our ships, but one was built or altered according to the whim of one man, and another was built or altered according to the whim of another man. There was no principle whatever followed in building our ships, because we had not one system of education and one mode of instruction.
§ Sir James Grahamsaid, that after the best information they could obtain, the Board of Admiralty thought the most proper course to pursue was to appoint men who united scientific knowledge with practical experience. He could assure the hon. Member, that measures would be taken to give the public all the information which might be laid before the Board of Naval Architecture.
§ Mr. Humewas desirous of knowing; explicitly whether Captain Symonds's plan had been successful or not? He understood that the Vernon, which had been built on the principles suggested by that officer, had turned out a complete failure. It was now two years and a half since the experiment had been tried, and it was only right the public should know whether or not it had answered the purposes it was designed for.
§ Sir James Grahamanswered, that as far as the Board of Admiralty was advised upon the subject, the superiority of the Vernon and of all the other vessels built under Captain Symonds's superintendence to vessels built upon any other system was remarkably great. The officers appointed to try their efficiency had reported those vessels to be of extraordinary strength and power, with all the good qualities of the lightest vessels.
Captain Dundasdeclared, on the authority of Sir Francis Collier, who commanded the Vernon, that the experiment had fully succeeded.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ On the Motion that 114,970l. be granted for salaries of Officers and expenses of Naval Establishments,
§ Mr. Humeobjected to the Captains-Superintendants of the Dock-yards of Pembroke and Woolwich receiving pay in addition to their pay as captains of yachts.
§ Sir James Grahamsaid, if there was one thing more than another for which he might take credit, it was his endeavour to reduce the expenditure for the royal yachts. One of these was constantly at Pembroke, the other at Woolwich, and the captains of each did full and active duty as Superintendants of those yards, [Mr. Hume: Are there only two royal yachts?] There were formerly five. One of these, which had been usually at the service of the Lord-lieutenant of Ireland he had wholly done away with. Two were afloat at the command of his Majesty, and he did not think that the House or the country would object to his Majesty, who had been bred up in the navy, having two vessels for his sole use. The other two were, by the arrangement he had alluded to, no longer sinecures, but tributary to the public service.
§ Mr. Humesaid, then there were, in fact, still four yachts. He freely admitted the propriety of placing two at the disposal of his Majesty, but the other two should, in his opinion, be put down.
§ Sir James Grahamsaid, that, from the time of William 3rd. to the present day, there had never been less than four royal yachts. George 3rd., when at Weymouth, had always three in immediate attendance upon him. He (Sir J.) thought it right to keep up the number of four, that the other two might be ready if they were ever wanted.
§ Mr. Humesaid, they should be kept up, not on the ground of usage, but for the purpose of use. Why had they applied schedules A and B to certain boroughs? Because they did not want them. Yet usage might, on the same principle, have shielded those boroughs, as now it was advanced to uphold these yachts. He was sorry to hear such reasons adduced for maintaining what the country did not require.
§ Resolution agreed to.
§ On the Question that a sum not exceeding 438,426l. be granted to his Majesty for the wages of artificers, &c, employed 127 in his Majesty's naval establishments at home,
§ Mr. B. Carterstated, that he had a petition in his possession from a number of the inhabitants of Portsmouth, complaining of the hardships to which the artificers of Portsmouth Dock-yard had been subjected, by the discharge of a great many hands, by the degradation of many who had acquired a certain rank in the yard to an inferior rank, and, above all, by the employment of convicts in the yard. He was happy to hear that his Majesty's Government intended to correct the last-mentioned evil; and he trusted that the intention would be carried into effect with as little delay as possible; for nothing could be more irksome to honest and free men, than to be associated in labours with persons of so different a description.
Captain Dundasobserved, that the attention of the House had been for many weeks called to the misery of the people of Ireland. That misery was at least equalled, if not exceeded, by the misery of the inhabitants of a district not four miles from the metropolis; he meant Deptford; where, in consequence of the number of artificers who had been discharged from the King's yard, the Poor rates had been raised to 18s. in the pound.
§ Sir James Grahamobserved, that the predecessors of the present Ministers had fixed upon 6,000 as the number to which the artificers in the various Dock-yards might be reduced. After having been three years in office, his Majesty's present Government had felt it their painful duty to make this, almost the last saving in the way of reduction, of which the naval department was capable; and had thought that the time had arrived when they might discharge 500 artificers, reducing the number from 6,500 to 6,000. It should be considered, however, that the sum saved, namely 37,000l. was spread over the whole of his Majesty's Dock-yards. That it fell more heavily on Portsmouth Dock-yard than on any other was owing to the circumstance that almost as many labourers were employed in that yard as in any other two yards in the kingdom. He was happy to confirm the statement of the hon. member for Portsmouth, that his Majesty's Government were of opinion, that the employment of convicts in the Dock-yards might and ought to cease, both with reference to political and as 128 moral considerations. It appeared, that the demand for labour at Van Diemen's Land was so great that this step might be taken without difficulty; and he spoke upon this subject the opinion both of his noble friend, the late, and of his right hon. friend the present. Secretary of State for the Colonial Department. Time, however, must be given for the arrangement. If the convicts were all removed at once, the sudden demand for labourers in the Dock-yards would create an inconvenient rise in the price of that labour. Another difficulty in the arrangement was caused by the consideration, that many of the convicts had already gone through the greater portion of their time, and that, in such cases it might be desirable to allow them to complete their time in the yards. He would, however, undertake to say, that no fresh convicts should be sent there. He had to add, in making the reductions, care had been taken to keep the most efficient men.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ On the Question, that a sum of 63,700l. be granted to defray the expense of new works and improvements in the Dockyards,
§ Sir James Grahamsaid, that he wished to call the attention of the Committee to this vote, the decision of which would, in fact, involve the question what should be the future outlay of the Breakwater at Plymouth. The late Sir John Rennie had recommended that the work should be finished with solid masonry; that recommendation was adopted by his son, and the Admiralty, after having obtained every possible information on the matter, supported the recommendation. The last winter had afforded a severe trial of the efficiency of the work, and he was happy to say, that the result was perfectly satisfactory. He had received a letter upon the subject, and should beg leave to read a few lines to the House. The writer stated, that although it had blown a hurricane during the past week, such as had never been equalled since the disastrous gale of November, 1824, all the vessels in the Sound had ridden it out in safety, and the work itself had suffered very little damage. Only a few stones had been thrown over to the Northern side. All that part of it which had been finished in solid masonry was left uninjured, and the few stones which had been swept off were removed from that part which had not 129 been so finished. He wished only to add now, that to the immortal honour of Sir John Rennie, the sum required for the works would fall short of the estimate he had sent in. That estimate amounted to 1,200,000l., but the expense amounted only to 1,100,000l.
§ Mr. Humethought, that if the work was to be finished, the sooner it was finished the better; for that would be sounder economy than leaving it uncompleted for a long period. If it could be finished better with solid masonry than in any other manner, he should not oppose its being so finished; but he thought it should be done without further delay. He wished to know on what principle it was, that Deptford Dock-yard was to be put down, and new Dock-yards at Sheerness and Pembroke were to be built? He did not understand this mode of proceeding. Sheerness was at a considerable distance from the metropolis, and in an exposed place, and he wished to know why the public money was to be expended in the erection of a Dock-yard there?
§ Sir James Grahamsaid, that if the question was now for the first time to be discussed, whether or not there should be a Dock-yard at Sheerness, he might possibly be found to agree with the hon. member opposite; but as 2,000,000l. had already been spent upon this work, and as the money now required to finish it was comparatively small, he recommended that it should be finished, in order to prevent the utter wasting of so great an outlay. As to Pembroke Dock-yard, he thought that a most fit place to select for such a purpose; for the depth of water was considerable, and the wages were low, and there were many things that rendered it a proper place for the building of ships. By having these two Dock-yards, he should be able to do what he had long wished, to know exactly the comparative expense of building and of repairing ships, because the two sorts of works, and consequently the two sorts of accounts, would be kept perfectly distinct.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ On the Question, that 871,858l. be granted for the half-pay of the Royal Navy and Marines,
§ Mr. Humeobjected, on the ground that gross extravagance was committed in that department of the public service in consequence of no care being taken to place persons enjoying half-pay upon full pay 130 when additional officers were required for the active service of the Navy.
Captain D. Dundaswas surprised at the remark just made by the hon. member for Middlesex. In his opinion, the recommendation of the hon. Member was anything but judicious; and there was no one, he was sure, in that House, who had the slightest acquaintance with the naval service, who would not be ready to testify to the fact, that sufficient justice was not done to the naval service. There were many officers of the navy who had served thirty and forty years, who had not above 3s. 6d. a-day, and he referred to the case of the pursers as one in point.
§ Admiral Codringtonsaid, this was a subject to which he had paid great attention, and he must say, that the most rank injustice was dealt out to all classes of half-pay officers in the navy. There was no other class in the country so badly provided for. The allowance which was given to pursers was a disgrace to the country. They were a body of men who filled most arduous situations, and were sometimes necessarily intrusted with the most important secrets; yet the allowance, after thirty years' service, was only 3s. a day. With regard to the treatment of other retired officers of the navy, it was scandalous; and he could adduce instances of service and sufferings that were remunerated by stipends which would not be offered by any gentleman to his servants. He knew one instance of a person who had received several dangerous wounds, amongst which was the loss of an eye, and the allowance for all those sufferings was only 6d. a-day. One person who had served under himself at Navarino lost an eye there, and his remuneration was 2l. The fact was, there appeared to be a systematic attempt to put down the navy. If there were any such intention, he thought it but right that all other pensions, as well as those of the navy, should be abolished. He would mention several other instances in which injustice was done to the navy. There had been several petitions presented from men who served at Navarino, and who lost every rag of their clothes in that action, but they received no remuneration or gratuity. There was one general petition in their behalf, forwarded to Sir John Gore, who, by order of his present Majesty, then Lord High Admiral, presented it to the Admiralty, and strange to say, when he inquired for that petition. 131 on his return from the Mediterranean, it was not to be found. It had never been heard of at the Treasury, nor was it to be found at the Admiralty. He could not avoid saying, that there appeared to have been a determination to inflict every injustice on all those who had served at Navarino. When he came to make a comparison between the pensions granted to officers of the navy, and those granted to other persons, the injustice done to the navy was still more manifest. He saw by the Pension List, that 500l. a-year was given to Mr. Thomas N. Holmes, a young gentleman, with whose services to the State no man was acquainted, whilst the oldest Captains in the navy had not more than 250l. a-year as a retired allowance. Sir Benjamin Hallowell was an officer of the most distinguished merit, who served under Nelson, and he now received 750l. a-year, whilst a retired Secretary received a pension of 2,000l. a-year. He would go through the list of such discrepancies were it not that that he should tire the House. He remembered that when the navy used to be paid in Bank-notes, a ship would be ordered off immediately the men received the money, perhaps to Gibraltar, where the one-pound note passed for only 14s., and thus the seamen were most shamefully defrauded of one-third of their pay. He had himself received his quarterly bills on foreign stations in dollars reckoned at more than 9s. each, whilst at the same time the army was paid in dollars taken at only 4s. and a fraction. In every point the navy had been treated in a manner disgraceful to the country. There was another hardship with respect to widows' pensions. Officers were made to contribute 3d. in the pound out of their pay towards the Widows' Pension Fund, whilst their widows were refused all benefit from the fund unless they could swear to their possessing no other property. He complained likewise, that where such men as boatswains had served meritoriously afloat, and were afterwards employed in the dock-yards, the two services were not allowed to be taken conjointly in order to make out a period which would entitle them to a pension. He conceived that the Foreign Enlistment Bill was a great injustice to the navy, for why should not seamen and officers be allowed to employ their professional skill, or pursue their avocation where they pleased, and for those who were willing to reward them? 132 He did not see why officers who bad no employment at home should be prevented from entering foreign service, and learning their trade as shoemakers, as other persons were allowed to do. Instead of injuring the British navy, it would greatly benefit it. He was glad that the convicts were at last to be removed from the dock-yards, for respectable men felt themselves degraded in being obliged to work in company with such characters. He could not conclude without drawing a comparison between the pay of Commissaries of the array, and Pursers in the navy. A Commissary-general received 1l. 9s. 3d. per diem, a Deputy Commissary-general received 14s. 8d., an Assistant Commissary-general 7s. 4d., and the Deputy Assistant Commissary-general 4s. 11d. per diem. Now, the senior Purser of the navy had been made in 1777, and received no more than 5s. a-day; the senior Purser made in 1799, received but 4s. a-day; and other Pursers made in 1808, received but 3s. a-day. These were inconsistencies disgraceful to the country, and which ever way he turned, be found the navy always dealt more harshly by than any other service.
§ Mr. O'Dwyeralso objected to the system upon which the navy was governed, and could say, from his own knowledge, that the complaints of the gallant Admiral were well founded. He was sorry to see an indisposition in the Government to relieve the country of the half-pay paid to officers who had rendered no services, and performed no duties whatever. Promotion was given entirely to young men of aristocratic families.
§ Sir James Grahamwould challenge the closest investigation into the promotions of the navy, since he had had the honour of being placed at the head of the department. He decidedly agreed with the gallant Admiral, that promotions must be held out as a stimulus to the profession, and that they were at once the cheapest and most honourable mode of procuring and rewarding services. Government, however, was placed between a cross-fire, for, whilst the hon. member for Middlesex attacked it for want of economy, another party assailed it for carrying economy too far, in withholding promotions and rewards from the naval service. He would say, that so far from the Admiralty having any objection to naval officers entering the merchant service, the fact of a person having go served would rather be considered 133 as a claim to attention and favour. He must assure the gallant Admiral, the member for Devonport, that the fullest consideration had been given by the Admiralty to the memorial from Navarino. It was in the power of the gallant Officer to bring the subject before the House, when he should be prepared to state the grounds of the refusal given by the Admiralty to the prayer of that memorial. With respect to the case of the Pursers, he begged to remind the gallant Admiral, that a Purser of a first-rate ship was in the receipt of an income of 900l. a-year, which was much larger than any income received by a Commissary-general.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ The House resumed.