§ Mr. Spring Ricemoved the Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into a Committee of the whole House on the Consolidated Fund Bill, for the purpose of moving an alteration in the appropriation clause, of which his right hon. friend the Secretary at War had given notice.
§ The House in Committee.
Mr. Humewould make one observation, which was, that, although this was not the opportunity for any individual to come forward with such remarks as he might think fit to make upon the expenditure sanctioned during the Session, he (Mr. Hume) availed himself of it, in order to declare, that there were many votes in which he had concurred during the Session, in order to save the time of the House, 1244 and allow the great measure of Reform to be brought to a' successful termination. He must at the same time distinctly say, that the expenditure of the country had not been brought down to the standard upon which, in his estimation, it ought to rest. It was, however, but justice to the Government to say, that many minor expenses had been extinguished, and many details laid before Parliament, which had heretofore been kept out of sight; as well as, also, that a measure was now before Parliament which would ensure a fair publication of the accounts of the country. The civil list had been placed on an intelligible footing; but he did not approve of all that had occurred with respect to the pension list; at the same time that there was this advantage gained—that all these branches were now subject to the revision of the Legislature. The votes for the army he could not but think too great, and totally disproportioned to the necessities of the country; and, considered in conjunction with the expenses of the ordnance, that must accompany such an establishment, no doubt existed in his mind of the necessity of a reduction. Indeed, all the reduction of clerks and minor offices were of little importance, as compared with this grand expense, and there was no hope of efficient reduction, so as to relieve the people, without lessening the Estimates for the army and navy. The militia had cost the country 4,500,000l. since the peace, and was useless. So also was the yeomanry, and it would be disgraceful if, in a country rich beyond precedent, as this was, persons could not be found to preserve its peace without pay and emoluments. He therefore anticipated, that in the next Session, and with a Reformed Parliament, reductions might be effected so as to bring down the expenditure from 45,000,000l. to 40,000,000l. 5,000,000l. might appear a large reduction, but when he looked to the variety and extent of our establishments, both at home and in the colonies, he had no doubt that when they were properly scrutinised this object would be effected, and a relief to the amount of 5,000,000l. of taxation thus given. The right hon. Secretary for the Treasury deserved very great credit for the clearness he had already introduced into the public accounts, and he hoped for still further improvements, particularly with respect to the expense of collecting the revenue, which was now 1245 kept out of sight, but which, in point of fact, made the sums paid by the people amount to 49,000,000l., instead of 45,000,000l. The reductions in the Admiralty department were also deserving of commendation, and a saving of 500,000l. had been effected in the purchase of timber. If the process of keeping the ships high and dry at Woolwich, now in progress, answered, he hoped the result would be an immense saving, instead of the expenditure of 29,000,000l. since the peace for the navy—a sum which would, at the present prices, purchase our whole navy. He wished always to assist and support the navy as the best and most efficient arm of this country. The miscellaneous expenses amounted to 2,000,000l., and, in those items, connected with Ireland in particular, he trusted to see very great reductions. The hon. Gentleman, in conclusion, repeated his declaration that his assent to many votes in this Session were not to be held as binding upon him on future occasions.
§ Mr. Spring Ricesaid, that the hon. member for Middlesex had only exercised his parliamentary right in making the explanations he had given, more especially as the hon. Gentleman had frequently intimated that he waived many objections in order to facilitate the progress of the measure of Reform. Still he must be permitted to say, that much had been done by the present Government in the way of reduction. In the ordinary expenses of the navy alone, there had been effected a saving of 250,000l. Upon the actual Estimates of the year there had been a reduction of not less than two millions. If the abstract amount of the income which went to pay the interest on the debt and the dead weight were taken into consideration, it would be seen that but comparatively a small sum remained open to be dealt with by Parliament in the way of reduction, and two millions reduced from such a sum was a great step indeed. He did not mean to say that it was to be a final step. He had also to remind the House that more had been done this year in reducing salaries than had been done during the three years preceding the accession to office of the present Ministry. He admitted that more yet remained to be done—a great deal more; but still the Government was entitled to credit for what it had already effected. He appealed to 1246 the hon. member for Middlesex as to whether Government had not also brought forward in the public accounts sums which had never been brought forward before; amongst which he might name 20,000l. towards the Greek loan.
§ Mr. Courtenaydiffered from the hon. member for Middlesex in almost every word that he had uttered, except in his praise of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Spring Rice), whose industry and exertions were in the highest degree laudable. He should not then enter into the subject, as he should have another opportunity, but merely begged to ask a question as to the decrease of two millions of expenditure alluded to by the right hon. Gentleman. He wished to know whether the saving was effected as comparing this year with the last, or both years with those during the time of the late Government?
§ Mr. Spring Ricesaid, he meant decidedly that the saving was effected as comparing this year with the last.
§ Mr. CourtenayThen it was not a saving as compared with the two last years.
§ Colonel Sibthorpsaid, there could no blame be attached to the Gentlemen who usually sat upon his side of the House, for every proposition that came from the other side—the Reforming side—was sure to be carried. He quite agreed with the hon. member for Middlesex, that all pensions to idle people ought to be abolished, and he, for one, would support such a proposition. There were, also, many of the high officers of the State whose salaries ought to be reduced; for instance, there was the First Lord of the Admiralty—to him he would allow 3,000l. a year, thereby saving 2,000l., which would be made up in patronage and honour; if the right hon. Baronet would not accept that sum, he (Colonel Sibthorp) would lake the office, and transact the business for nothing. Much had been spoken of savings; he, however, could not find them out, and when he had a return, which he was about to move for, of the expense of the wonderful Bill of Reform, as it was called, but which ought to be called the detestable and damnable bill, then the country would see what saving Government had made. It appeared that Parliament was to be dismissed with the consolation that there was already a deficiency in the revenue of 700,000l., and the probability of a further deficiency of 400,000l. next year, but which deficiency he, in his conscience 1247 believed, he could show would be at least 2,000,000l. He, however, hoped Ministers would be able to face the country, and prove to him that his conjectures were wrong.
Sir John Hobhousesaid, that he had given notice of his intention to propose an alteration of one clause of the Appropriation Act; he would not, however, do it then, but on the bringing up of the Report. It was, however, designed to permit officers on half-pay to hold civil appointments without forfeiting their half-pay. The right hon. Baronet stated the several changes which had taken place upon this subject from the year 1810, and observed, that the only exception had been made with respect to those officers who held the office of barrack-masters on foreign stations. As a general principle, it was laid down by the Finance Committee, that the half-pay was given as a retaining fee; but that could never be true in the case of the sick, the infirm, and the aged, nor for those who had been excepted by the Act of 1811. It was morally impossible that any thing like a majority of the officers on half-pay could be called into actual service, the number being now about 7,000. The Report of the Finance Committee of 1828 went upon figures, which certainly appeared rather astounding. According to it, there were 404 officers of the army on half-pay, holding civil offices to the amount of 41,000l. a-year, and they had gone upon an inference which the Return proved to be unjust, namely, that the whole of this sum would be saved by the new regulation. The amount received by navy half-pay officers holding civil offices was 32,000l. a-year, and the Committee assumed that a savins to the amount of 73,000l. a-year could be effected; but the result had been rather the reverse. Officers upon half-pay would not give up that half-pay unless the salaries of the civil appointments were large, and many preferred remaining upon half-pay to making the exchange; so that, in fact, the expense was greater, as both services were separately paid. The present First Lord of the Admiralty, as a member of the Finance Committee of 1828, had been a strenuous advocate for the regulation it suggested: but his experience since he came into office had convinced him that he had formerly been mistaken, and that, practically, an injury was done by the change of system. The Finance 1248 Committee, it appeared, had proceeded upon wrong data, and that body had no right to assume what the result showed to be totally unfounded. Barrack-masters and officers serving in the police in Ireland, for which they were eminently fitted, must be deducted from the amount given for the army, and thus there would only remain 20,000l. to be accounted for; but it was a great fallacy to suppose, that even getting rid of that would produce a reduction of expenditure. By the Return it appeared that in the course of four years, only twenty-one out of 404 half-pay officers were appointed to civil situations, as no more could be found who would give up their half-pay. Of 291 so situated at the commencement of the present year, 181 were of the lowest scale of officers; 106 holding civil appointments under 150l. a-year, and none above 250l. The gross amount of their several salaries was not more than double, instead of being four times the amount of their half-pay, as was inferred by the Finance Committee. Contending, then, that the Committee had gone on fallacious grounds, and also considering that half-pay officers were the best and most proper persons to till certain situations, he did not think they ought to be shut out. He should propose that this change should take place from the 1st of January next—that the appointment of military officers to civil situations should be with the sanction of the Treasury and the Secretary at War, and in order to give Parliament a proper control over such appointments, he would further propose, that a return should be annually laid before the House of the number of officers holding civil situations, and the amount of salary attached to those situations.
Mr. Humeobjected to the intended change, which in his opinion was an innovation upon the principle on which the array had been regulated by the 59th Geo. 3rd, which had been departed from from 1820 to 1828, and restored by the Finance Committee in the latter year. The right hon. Baronet was wrong in supposing that the principle which he was now about to do away with, originated with the Committee of 1828. The fact was, that by the 59th Geo. 3rd, officers in the army or navy were prevented from receiving their half-pay while holding civil appointments of a certain value. The Committee of 1828 had no wish to bar the admission of naval or military officers to civil appoint- 1249 ments, but it recommended that, when holding such appointments, they should no longer be a burthen to the country by the amount of their half-pay. The right hon. Baronet had taken too narrow a view of the subject, which would lead again to that confusion of accounts which of late years had been avoided. He maintained that the principle on which the Finance Committee had proceeded was perfectly correct, and that it was unfit and inexpedient that any half-pay officer should, at the same time, receive pay as a civil servant. The moment an officer accepted a civil appointment he ought to be no longer a burthen to the array. He should, therefore, oppose the bringing up of the clause.
§ Mr. Weylandsupported the Resolution. In his opinion all civil offices should be open to officers on half-pay, for that half-pay was the reward of past services, not a retaining fee for future services. He even disapproved of the regulation for taking away half-pay from those officers who were in holy orders.
Sir Adolphus Dalrytnplewas of opinion that the Finance Committee had been wholly mistaken in the view it took of the subject. He had, previous to this time, endeavoured to induce the Government to consent to such a change as that, and he was grateful for it now that it was proposed.
§ Colonel Sibthorpcordially agreed with the change proposed by the Secretary at War, and hoped to be able to concur with him in future more frequently.
Mr. Humewished it to be understood that he had no desire whatever to bar naval and military officers from holding civil appointments, as he thought them fully qualified for such appointments, indeed, he should wish to see officers selected for such appointments, in order that their half-pay might be saved to the country, which was the intention of the Finance Committee in its recommendation in 1828.
§ Mr. Weylandwished to throw out a suggestion for the consideration of the right hon. Gentleman opposite. He was of opinion that officers who had served ten years, and were entitled to receive half-pay, should be allowed to retain their half-pay though they entered holy orders. He wished a clause of that kind introduced.
Sir John Hobhousesaid, that there would be a strong objection to such a clause, inasmuch as those officers who took holy orders would not be available for the public service. Many cases had occurred, with 1250 reference to the subject of half-pay, involving circumstances so piteous, to which, if he had followed the dictates of his own feelings, instead of performing the strict duty of a public officer, he must have given way. The effect of this clause would he hoped, be, to lessen the number of such cases in future. The question between him and the hon. member for Middlesex was a question of economy. He could assure his hon. friend, that his efforts had been devoted to promote economy, while he did justice to all parties. The regulation could introduce no confusion into the public accounts: but it would be a measure of economy. He hoped that the country, though he had been accused of sacrificing economy and not doing justice, would give him credit for his motives. When this subject was clearly understood, the country would see that the change was not an infringement of public economy, and that it would not introduce confusion into the public accounts; but that it was calculated to restore to the King's service a right, of which it should never have been deprived.
Sir James Grahamsaid, that this clause had his approbation. He had not heard his right hon. friend's speech, but he concluded that his right hon. friend meant it to be with certain reservations. He certainly consented to the regulation with reservations. One of these reservations was, that the maximum of reward should not exceed the civil remuneration, including the half-pay; and that it might be checked, he certainly should recommend that the return of all those officers holding civil situations, and the amount of their half-pay and other emoluments, should be annually laid on the Table of the House. It was on that condition that he assented to it.
§ Clause agreed to—House resumed.