HC Deb 06 September 1831 vol 6 cc1205-16
Lord Althorp,

in moving the Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into a Committee on the Reform of Parliament (England) Bill, expressed a hope that they would let the Bill get through the Committee that evening, even though it should lead them to sit to a later hour than usual.

Sir Edward Sugden

said, that he had no wish to prevent the noble Lord from accomplishing his wish to get this Bill through before the Coronation; at the same time he must object to their sitting much beyond their usual hour.

Lord Granville Somerset

could not accede to the proposition of the noble Lord. He had himself a clause to propose as soon as the Committee got through the present clauses of the Bill; but he could not think of bringing forward that clause at half-past one or two o'clock in the morning.

Mr. Hunt

hoped the remaining clauses would not be hurried through the House: some of them he considered among the most important in the Bill.

Mr. Wilks

had given notice of his intention to incorporate into this Bill a clause, enacting that Parliaments should not have more than a triennial duration. Now, as the present Bill was only a local Bill, being for the Reform of the Representation in England and Wales merely, and as the two other Reform Bills were also locals bills for Scotland and Ireland respectively, he was of opinion that a clause of a general description could not properly be introduced into any one of them. Though he was more and more convinced of the necessity of making Parliaments triennial, he was now of opinion that a separate bill would be the best mode of effecting that object. He should, therefore, not introduce the clause of which he had given notice. At the same time he begged leave to state, that in the next Session of Parliament he would move for leave to bring in a bill to prevent the continuance of any Parliament for more than three years.

Sir Edward Sugden

was glad that something at least would be left for a new Parliament to do.

The House then went into Committee.

The forty-fifth clause, by which counties are to be divided into districts for polling by Justices in Sessions, was agreed to after some slight verbal amendments.

On the proposal of the forty-sixth clause, which relates to the erection of booths at the polling places,

Sir Edward Sugden

expressed his former opinion, that it would be found impossible to carry the machinery of this clause into operation in the case of a contested election; the time allowed was too short.

Mr. Hughes Hughes

said, that there was good reason why the booths should be provided by the county, and paid for at the county expense. That expense would be very trifling, if they could be made so as to be put up and taken down at every election. They might also be used for other county purposes.

The clause was then agreed to.

The forty-seventh clause was then put, which makes provision as to the Sheriff's deputies, the custody of the poll-books, and the final declaration of the poll.

Mr. Houldsworth

contended, that this clause would amount to a perpetual obstruction to all free elections in counties for the future. From calculations he had made, he found it would be impossible that the electors in large counties could be polled in a contested election at different places, within the time limited.

Lord Althorp

defended the clause: he could not enter into such nice calculations as those which the hon. Member appeared to have made, but, in general, as contests would not take place without some motive, the Sheriff would be aware of them, and take the necessary measures without difficulty.

Mr. Hughes Hughes

begged to call the noble Lord's attention to the frequency with which contests arose on the day of nomination, without any previous intimation; and if these remarks were applicable; to counties, they were still more so to cities and boroughs, where an election might commence on the day of nomination.

The clause was then agreed to.

Sir Edward Sugden

said, from the wording of this clause, it would appear that the state of the poll could not be known until the conclusion of the contest. The effect of this would be, an election must always continue until the termination of the time allowed.

Lord Althorp

could not agree with the hon. and learned Gentleman, because it was impossible to suppose, that this provision of the Bill could prevent any candidate from obtaining the necessary information as to the state of the poll, by which he could regulate his proceedings either to retire or go on.

Mr. Houldsworth

said, that might be the case in boroughs, but in large counties the state of the poll could not be known where the polling places were widely separate.

Sir Edward Sugden

supposed telegraphs would be established, for no other method would enable the candidates to obtain the necessary information.

Clause agreed to.

The forty-eighth clause, relative to the commencement and continuance of polls at borough elections, was next read.

Mr. Hughes Hughes

begged the noble Lord would inform him, that as this clause provided that the poll should commence on the day of nomination, or on the third day at the outside, who was to regulate that?

Lord Althorp

the returning officer, of course.

Mr. Hughes Hughes

then that should be expressed in the clause; it ought not to be left in any uncertainty.

Mr. John Campbell

said, in his opinion, the returning officer was the proper person to have this discretionary power—he would, no doubt, consult the convenience of the candidates.

Mr. Wilks

differed from the hon. and learned Gentleman. The returning officer might have a political bias, it might be the interest of one candidate to put off the election until the last hour allowed, and the interest of the other to commence it immediately: as little ought to be left to the discretion of the returning officer as possible.

Lord Althorp

said, something must be left to his discretion, although it was, undoubtedly, right to confine it as much as possible.

Mr. Wilks

said, he should move, that the following words be inserted in the clause "as the candidates at the election may agree, or, in case of their disagreement, as the returning officer shall direct."

Mr. John Campbell

said, these words would never answer; suppose there were three candidates, two on one side and one on the other, then the returning officer must decide.

Sir Edward Sugden

said, that probably these words would apply better "at the discretion of the returning officer when the candidates shall not agree on the day."

Mr. Cresset Pelham

said, if the nomination was fixed for an early day, another candidate would be prevented from coming forward, and the returning officer might be prevented from giving due notice.

Mr. Wilks

said, the clause only applied to contested elections, and the nomination was the time at which the contest was to begin, and from which all the arrangements must be made; consequently no new candidate could start after that, and this provision was a great improvement on the old system in that respect.

The Chairman

said, the question was, that after the words "at the latest, on the third day," it was proposed to insert "unless that shall happen to be on a Sunday, and in that case, on the Monday following;" and the amendment proposed was to insert in addition "at the discretion of the returning officer in case the candidates shall not agree on a day."

Mr. John Campbell

said, the returning officer ought not to be controlled by the candidates. The elections ought to begin forthwith, or on a specific day to be named in the Bill.

Mr. Wilks

said, it was well known, that in certain boroughs, the elections ought to begin forthwith, from the time of nomination, to prevent the political predilections of Mayors and Corporations influencing the elections. He wished the time, therefore, to be left to the candidates, who had a mutual interest to prevent expense and disorder.

Mr. Hunt

said, they must have time to erect booths where there were many voters, and no building appropriated for that purpose.

Amendment agreed to.

On that part of the clause which provides that the polling "shall continue for two days only, that is to say, for hours on the first day of polling, and for hours on the second day,"

The first question was, that the first blank be filled up by the word seven.

Mr. Cutlar Fergusson

objected, that seven hours were too short a time to enable the contesting parties to arrive at a satisfactory conclusion. Courts at law sat for a longer period, and even that House usually devoted more hours than seven to business.

Lord Althorp

replied, that this number of hours had been appointed in order to prevent the polls being kept open at an unseasonable and inconvenient time in winter, when nightfall would necessarily interfere with the progress of business.

Mr. Alderman Waithman

said, that in the City of London they had, by the present system polled 8,600 voters in six days, and he thought they could, by the divisions and polling places to be provided, terminate their elections within the two days now allowed.

Sir Charles Wetherell

took the present opportunity of inquiring from the worthy Alderman, how his constituents, the Livery of London, for whom he had a high respect, liked that addition to the whole Bill, by which renters of rooms, lodgers and warehouse-keepers, were let in among them. He was afraid, that the worthy Alderman and his constituents, did not approve of that addition, and that they did not understand fully the nature of the Bill.

Mr. Alderman Waithman

said, he believed he understood the Bill as well as the hon. and learned Gentleman. At all events he would not take his reading of it.

Sir Edward Sugden

proposed, that "seven hours at least on the first day" should be inserted; and the hon. and learned Gentleman's suggestion was ultimately agreed to.

The next question was, that the second blank be filled up with the words "eight hours," for the duration of the poll on the second day.

Mr. Hunt

begged to ask, whether it would not be better to fix the hour at which the polling should commence.

The Attorney General

said, there was no occasion for such a provision; and it would be better certainly to fix a precise number of hours for the polling on the second day; if it were otherwise, a temptation might be held out for the returning officer to prolong or shorten the period for some purposes of his own.

Agreed to.

The Proviso was then put, "That nothing in this Bill, should prevent the closing of the poll, under any circumstances under which it may be closed at present."

Agreed to.

The clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

The 49th clause, regulating the polling for boroughs in England and Wales at several booths, so that not more than 600 should vote atone compartment in a booth, and providing that if the booths are in different places, a deputy of the returning officer to preside at each place—was next put.

On the question, that the second part of the clause, for the erection of separate booths, be agreed to,

Colonel Sibthorp

objected to the clause, as separating the candidate from the electors. He would rather meet his constituents face to face, and hear every objection that could be urged against his conduct: on that account he trusted, that the noble Lord would submit to some modification of the clause.

Clause agreed to.

The next part, "That the Sheriff or other returning officer, may appoint a deputy where the booths are erected in different places—put.

Mr. Hunt

complained that sufficient notice would not be given to the electors of the compartments in which they were to vote.

Lord Althorp

thought, the clause as amended, would be sufficiently explicit in that respect.

Mr. Hunt

was afraid some difficulty would still be found with regard to the districts of large towns.

Sir Charles Wetherell

thought, the clause would be utterly impracticable. In a large and populous town, Manchester, for instance, where there were from 30,000 to 40,000 voters, it would be impossible for the returning officer so to divide the place into compartments of 600 voters each, so as to close the election in two days.

Mr. Stanley

observed, that the hon. and learned Member did not seem to be aware that this impracticable plan had been already in operation during two elections. A bill was introduced by the hon. member for Worcester, and had passed, empowering the returning officer to divide large towns into compartments, with 600 voters in each, and under this arrangement the last two general elections were conducted.

Sir Edward Sugden

said, that his hon. and learned friend was perfectly aware of the Act in question, but it was applicable to a state of things wholly different from that which would exist under this Bill. By this Bill the polling would last only two days, though the number of constituents would be greatly increased.

Sir Charles Wetherell

said, the great objects of his remarks was, to endeavour to save time and expense at elections, and therefore, to demonstrate that the noble Lord's plan was impracticable, and would only lead to confusion, The Act the hon. Gentleman had quoted he was perfectly aware of, which was only fit to be applied to Oxford or Worcester, for which places it was intended. Its provisions would wholly fail in the extraordinary geographical boroughs they were about to make.

Mr. Hunt

was of opinion that the classing parishes in different booths would tend to confuse the electors, who would not know where they should go to vote.

Mr. Wilks

thought, that in small boroughs the division of booths was unnecessary and inconvenient.

Mr. Strickland

suggested, as a means of saving expense, that instead of enacting that the returning officer, at the final close of the poll, shall keep the poll-books unopened till the following day, and then declare the state of the poll, it should be "as soon as conveniently may be."

Lord Althorp

adopted the suggestion of the hon. Member, so far as to add at the end of the clause the words "provided always that the returning officer or his legal deputy may, if he think fit, declare the final state of the poll, and make his return, immediately after the poll is finished."

The proviso was added to the clause.

On the question being put, "that the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Wilks

suggested, that the clause should not be applied to boroughs where there were not 1,000 electors.

Lord Althorp

said, such a limitation would not be convenient.

Mr. Robert Gordon

proposed the following addition to the clause;—"Provided always that no nomination or election of a Member to serve in Parliament shall be held in any church or chapel or other place of public worship."

Sir Edward Sugden

fully concurred with the Amendment proposed by the hon. Member.

Mr. Croker

concurred in the proposition, though he thought it unnecessary, as the practice was even now illegal.

Mr. William Peel

supported the Amendment, which was agreed to.

The clause, as amended, to stand part of the Bill.

On the question being put on clause 50,

Mr. Hughes Hughes moved as an Amendment in the first part of the clause, that "all booths to be built for the convenience of taking polls shall be erected by the Sheriff or other returning officer, at the expense of the county, city, town, or borough, requiring the same; and the same shall remain the property of such county, city, town, or borough." His object in this was, to diminish the expense of elections, which was the professed object of the Bill.

Sir Edward Sugden

would oppose the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman. He was ready to admit it had one advantage, if advantage it could be called, it seemed to offer a premium to strangers to obtrude themselves as candidates, where they were not known, at the expense of the county rates. If they desired the poor man to pay for the ambitious desires of the rich, they would agree to the Amendment.

Lord Althorp

observed, that if this proposition were adopted, it would be necessary to empower the counties, cities, towns, and boroughs, to raise a tax to defray the expense of booths. He thought it not unreasonable to lay the expense on candidates.

Mr. Croker

remarked, that it was a most extraordinary proposal that the booths should be the property of the returning officers. He supposed this was what the hon. Member would call a mare's (Mayor's) nest.

Mr. Cresset Pelham

said, it would be much better to dispense with the Assistant Barristers, and appropriate the funds which were to pay these learned gentlemen, to the erection of polling booths

Captain Spencer

begged to ask, if houses might not be employed to take voters in as well as booths.

Lord John Russell

said, there was nothing in the Bill to prevent that being done, if it was found more convenient.

Amendment withdrawn, and clause agreed to.

Clauses 51 and 52 were agreed to.

On the question being put on clause 53,

Lord Granville Somerset

intimated, that it was his intention to move that a new district of boroughs be formed in the county of Monmouth, for the purpose of sending one Member to Parliament.

Lord John Russell

suggested that this was not the proper moment for this Amendment. The noble Lord could bring it forward at a future stage, and if it were adopted, the clause should be altered accordingly.

Lord Granville Somerset

said, he should be prepared to do so to-morrow.

Mr. James L. Knight

recommended a provision, that each voter in a contributory borough should be entitled to vote in that borough alone.

Lord Althorp

said, a considerable disadvantage would result from such an arrangement.

The clause was carried.

Clause 54 also carried.

On the Chairman putting clause 55,

The Attorney General

objected to including the Barrister with the Sheriff and other officers, who, by the clause, were rendered liable to actions for damages for wilfully contravening the provisions of the Act.

Mr. Wilks

said, if the Barrister was to be excused from being liable to penalties, the Overseer of the Poor should also be exonerated.

Lord Althorp

was inclined to concur with his hon. and learned friend, as the Barrister had no positive duty to perform but that of giving judgment, and for which, if his judgment were corrupt, he was liable to proceedings under other statutes.

Mr. Wilks

repeated, that the returning officer and Overseer, ought to be relieved from penalties as well as the Barrister.

The Attorney General

said, if the penalty was inserted in the Bill, he was satisfied they would not get Barristers to act.

Lord John Russell

supported the clause, and contended that the Barrister had positive duties to perform.

Mr. Hunt

said, the Attorney General was checking the rope just as the Bill began to run: he seemed to wish to make a distinction between lawyers and other people.

Lord Althorp

proposed that the clause should be passed, with an understanding that it might receive some modification, should the House think proper, when it was moved to bring up the report.

The clause carried, and the two blanks left for the insertion of the maximum of damages were filled up each with 500l.

Clause 56 carried nem. con.

Clause 57 put. It was proposed to insert the sum of 10l. in the blank left for the maximum of fine upon any person voting at an election by means of fraudulently assuming the name of any rightful elector.

Mr. Cresset Pelham

trusted that this clause did not supersede the former penalties for such a transgression [cries of "no, no."]

Mr. Wilks

thought the fine by far too small. He should propose the sum of 50l.

Mr. Hunt

would vote for even 25l.,but certainly he thought the fine ought to be much greater than 10l.

Colonel Sibthorp

thought 50l. a proper amount of fine.

Lord Althorp

wished to state, that in addition to the fine the offender would be deprived of his franchise for life.

Mr. Hughes Hughes

suggested, that cases might occur in which the offender might not have any franchise to lose.

Mr. Wilks's

proposition adopted, and the blank filled up with the words "fifty pounds."

Clauses 58 and 59 carried.

The Chairman put the question, "That clause 60 (the last clause) stand part of the Bill."

Colonel Sibthorp

declared that he had opposed the Bill fairly and fearlessly. His side of the House was cheered by the supporters of Ministers, as if they had got through their labours. He could tell them that their labours had only commenced. He did not understand being treated with contempt. He would tell those who laughed at him, either in the House or out of the House, that he would support his opinions and vindicate himself to the last hour he had to breathe. He regretted that the Bill had passed through the Committee so soon. The Bill had passed too speedily. If his opponents were tired, he would not give up. He would never give in. He was never yet put down in that House, and never would be. He was never put down out of the House, and he defied the hon. Member opposite, who was laughing at him, to put him down. The hon. Member had supported the Bill conscientiously, and why did not the hon. Member give him credit for having opposed the Bill with equal sincerity? He prayed to God that the Bill might not pass. If the Bill did pass, which he prayed to God might never be the case, all he had to say was, in the words of that great and sublime statesman, now admired, and who, he fervently trusted, would have his memory for ever preserved in that House—"Oh, save my country and the Sovereign." He felt confident that the Bill would not pass—such a Bill never could pass.

The Chairman

begged the hon. Member to give him permission to state simply what was the question before the Committee. It was, that after the words "be it enacted" the word "Treasury," &c. be inserted.

The clause put, and the Chairman saying "As many as are of this opinion, say Ay," the House resounded with cheers. "As many as are of the contrary opinion, say No." One or two voices feebly uttered "No." "I think the Ayes have it." [loud cheers.]

Clause agreed to.

Lord Althorp

proposed two clauses, the first was to fulfil the suggestions of the hon. member for Bodmin, and provided that no freehold of a less value than 10l., held for a life or lives, should hereafter entitle any person to vote for a county.

Clause agreed to.

Lord Althorp

then proposed a clause relating to the appointment of Barristers to revise the list of voters.—Agreed to.

Lord Althorp

also proposed to add a clause, to the effect that lists of the voters should be printed, and sold at a reasonable price.

Mr. Wilks

suggested that the price should be fixed.

Clause agreed to.

Lord Althorp

also proposed a clause providing that the Justices of the Peace in the neighbourhood of Shoreham and Cricklade should have the power of dividing those places into convenient districts, so as that the poll should be conveniently taken.—Agreed to.

Lord Althorp

said, there now remained one clause to be disposed of—he alluded to the money clause, which related to the payment of Barristers. He could not bring that clause before the Committee until tomorrow. He should therefore move, that the Chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again to-morrow, and he very sincerely trusted that it would be the last time when he should be called upon to make any similar motion.

House resumed; Committee to sit again next day.