HC Deb 11 October 1831 vol 8 cc554-60
Colonel Trench

, in bringing up the Report of the Committee for the improvement of the House, observed, that the bad state of the atmosphere, and the exposure to unequal draughts of air had already caused the death of several hon. Members in the course of this arduous Session. He had to state, that three architects had been consulted—Sir Geoffrey Wyattville, Mr. Benjamin Wyatt, and Mr. Smirke. He would first state in what they agreed, then in what they differed. They all agreed, that the accommodation in the House at present was altogether inadequate to the number of Members, and that two feet was the least space which ought to be allotted to every Gentleman who had to sit for a number of hours. He had admitted, that in the theatres a space of not more than eighteen or twenty inches was allowed. In the House, as it then stood, there were only 700 feet of accommodation; therefore, only accommodation for 350 Members. Now, Sir Geoffrey Wyattville's plan was, on either side to open a recess between the piers of thirty feet, and to cover it with a flat roof, which should not in the least interfere with the building as it then stood. These recesses would afford accommodation to 140 Members. But he considered the plan liable to objection, inasmuch as Mr. Speaker would have great difficulty in seeing hon. Members in those remote recesses; and they would find it scarcely possible to make themselves heard by all the House. Mr. Benjamin Wyatt's plan was, that the House should be projected into the Lobby, and that beyond that another and more extensive Lobby should be constructed—a plan to which he himself inclined, and to which all persons who voted on the late division must, he should imagine, feel well disposed. By this addition to the House there would be accommodation afforded for 100 more Members than at present. According to the usual allowance of eighteen inches space for each person, there would then be in the House accommodation for 590 Members, and for 450, at least, that ample space in which a man of ordinary dimensions might sit, in a comfortable position, for a number of hours. The plan of Mr. Wyatt he considered might be carried into effect at a small expense. His estimate was 344l.; Mr. Smirke's was 350l.; and he thought this plan would give all the accommodation required. The next points to be considered were hearing and ventila- tion. The first might be materially improved by the construction of a new roof, framed and lined with wood; and by the adoption of the ordinary measures, the ventilation might be made infinitely better. These improvements might be effected without any essential alteration in the form of the apartment, for which he had the greatest veneration. Interruption, too, to the Speaker might be avoided according to Mr. Wyatt's plan, by constructing a passage round the apartment, from which doors should open upon every gangway; so that an hon. Member, in taking his place, need never pass over the floor of the House. Nor need there ever be that accumulation of Members at the bar, which now gave rise to such noise and interruption to the debate. The alterations would afford increased accommodations to the Members, would increase the she of the House, would enable them to have it better ventilated, would improve the hearing, and facilitate the means of communication from one part to another, and all this would be performed for the sum of 6,900l. This statement was exclusive of the roof, which would make the sum amount to 10,OOOl. In making the statement, he was bound to tell the House that the Committee appointed to investigate this matter had not agreed with him, and that the Report he had made as their Chairman was of course made according to the wishes of the majority, but his own opinion remained the same as before. The gallant Colonel then proposed that at the beginning of next Session the Committee should be renewed, and should receive at the same time instructions as to which of the plans they should adopt—that of altering the House in the way he proposed, or that of building another, as was suggested by the Committee. He moved that the Report of the Committee be received this day three weeks.

Mr. Hunt

said, that he thought that something ought to be done directly to remedy the inconvenience which was felt From the west window when the wind was blowing in that quarter. He also suggested, that as many hon. Members had their boots shod with iron, and frequently walked or rather trotted, or rather went in a bog-trot amble across the House, a carpet should be put down to diminish the noise.

Colonel Sibthorp

said, that one observation made by the gallant Colonel in- duced him to say a few words to the House. They were told that, this proposed plan would improve the hearing. He should be glad of that, for it was often said, that members, and he for one, could not be heard; it was so said by the corrupt, hired, and perverted Press. He stated that without fear of what might be said respecting him by that corrupt Press. He had asked for better accommodation for the reporters, who now made excuses for not hearing. All he asked was, not, to be misrepresented. He desired the House to consider this subject attentively, and unless they were satisfied that the proposed alteration would be sure of producing the expected advantages, he should, for one, say, that he should be more willing to lay out. 60,000l. for building a new House, than to expend 6,900l. for alterations that might not be sufficient.

Sir J. Wrottesley

stated, that the Committee, after carefully examining the subject, had come to a conclusion the opposite of that, adopted by their hon. Chairman. He himself was perfectly convinced that, if they attempted to make the proposed alterations, they must, expend a much larger sum without obtaining adequate accommodation, and that in every respect it would be better to have a new House.

Mr. Warburton

said, there was one attempt they ought to make, and that was, to alter the mode of geting fresh air into the House. He understood that they were now at a great expense to pump in fresh air, as it was called, but the chief place from which that fresh air was obtained, was one from which the air sent into the House, at the spot near which he sat, was most mephitic and offensive.

Colonel Cust

hoped, that something would be done to remedy the present, acknowledged inconvenience of many of the offices attached to the House.

Mr. Croker

fully agreed with his gallant friend who had introduced this question, that the further consideration of the Report ought to be postponed for three weeks; for, as within that time the prorogation was likely to take place, it would amount to an entire postponement. He was, indeed, a little surprised and disappointed that an hon. Member, with whom he had had the pleasure of voting for the last six months, should now appear as the advocate for reforming this House, and should begin his advocacy by proposing, like the Radi- cals out of doors, to remove the piers. He must oppose him in this Reform, as he had opposed others in one of a political kind, the object of which was also to remove the peers. His hon. and gallant friend had told them, with an odd combination of expressions, that no man could sit comfortably in that House without "two feet;" and had proceeded to calculate their seats by "running measure." This was, indeed, a Reform on fundamental principles, and might not be without its advantage if they saw any prospect of such a union of parties as would form a broad-bottomed Administration. But he thought, under present circumstances, it would be fitter to argue the case à priori, and consider whether they were not very well as they were. It was a remarkable instance of the blindness with which one favourite object or theory will affect the clearest intellects, when his hon. and gallant friend chose this particular moment to produce his proposition for the enlargement of the House. They had last night agreed to a measure that was equivalent to a diminution of the numbers of the House, and on that, the following night, a scheme was offered to them for rendering it capable of containing a larger number of Members. The hon. Gentleman apparently forgot that this House, which had so long been found tolerably convenient for 658 Members, must surely be large enough for a much smaller number. It had been said, that they had not room enough for hon. Members; but the benches were seldom fully occupied, and certainly a greater number of Members could not be expected to attend when the numbers of the House were reduced. On this occasion, which concerned them all, they had but a scanty attendance; it was, therefore, clear, that it was not places that they wanted. He did not blindly reverence the mere antiquity of the edifice; but he could not forget that it was the place in which the Cecils and the Bacons, the Wentworths and Hampdens, the Somers's and the St. Johns, the Walpoles and the Pulteneys, the Pitts, the Foxes, the Murrays, and the Burkes, had "lived, and breathed, and had their being." He did, he confessed, however weak it might appear to the strong-minded Reformers of the day—he did feel the influence of the religio loci; and as long as the human mind was susceptible of local associations, he could not disregard the beneficial effect that might be felt from their continuing to assemble on the scene where so many illustrious actors had performed such splendid parts. If patriotism could grow warmer on the plain of Marathon, and piety amid the ruins of Iona, the zeal and talents of British senators might also be exalted by the religious and legislative sanctity with which time and circumstances had invested the ancient chapel of St. Stephen.

The hon. Member complained of the disorderly assemblage of Members about the bar during a full House: it happened rather unfortunately for this argument, that while the hon. Gentleman was speaking they were repeatedly compelled to call upon hon. Members to take their places, and to cry out "Bar! Bar!" although there was sitting-room for 250 Members vacant at the moment. It was not places for seating an audience that they wanted, but the power of commanding attention. He was sure that those who had attended to the Debates in that House would agree with him, that whenever a Gentleman rose to whom the House was desirous of attending, he had always the power of making himself heard. He doubted whether any architectural alteration that could be made would ensure either the attention of the House when it was not disposed to listen, or the power of any Member of commanding that attention. Another grievance alleged against the present House was, the narrowness and inconvenience of its benches; but he was inclined rather to admire the House for the peculiarity of its benches; for he knew that if they were uneasy to sit upon, they were still less formed to gratify the propensity which their speeches might occasionally produce, as it was almost impossible to sleep upon them. They knew from the example of Eutychus, that a greater orator than even that House had ever produced, had occasionally set some of his auditory asleep: and, even in this short Debate, the House might see that no additional convenience was necessary to invite hon. Members to repose [one or two Members were observed to be asleep on the back benches.]

Another part of his hon. friend's proposition was, to afford wider gangways, and greater facilities of moving about. But he doubted whether that would turn out to be any material advantage, as, at present, many hon. Members kept their places from an indisposition to disturb their neighbours; and were sometimes induced to attend to a, perhaps, tedious duty, and listen patiently to a debate, from which, with easier means of egress, they probably would escape. With the facilities which his gallant friend's plan proposed, they would continually have Gentlemen of locomotive habits moving about, to the obvious interruption of the business of the House and the country. The Irish House of Commons and the French Chambers, which were built according to all the rules of architecture and all the theory of acoustics, were the worst constructed buildings forbearing that was possible, while the English House of Commons, patched and pieced as it was, contained nearly all the advantages a Legislative Assembly could desire. They might make a building as large as Westminster Hall without ensuring attention, for that depended on the speaker and his auditors, and not on the place. He therefore did not think it would be necessary to enlarge the House, though there were some parts of its interior to which the attention of the Board of Works ought to be directed. He should, on the whole, oppose the further consideration of this subject, which he thought quite needless to be introduced at this moment, and which he did not believe could at any time be beneficially arranged on the principles proposed by his hon. and gallant friend.

Colonel Trench

said, he was particularly unhappy that the right hon. Gentleman had made him the subject of his wit and sarcasm. He was utterly unable to follow the right hon. Gentleman in these respects. He was afraid that he had made a statement which the right hon. Gentleman could not understand.

Mr. Croker

said, he should feel very sorry if his hon. friend supposed he had meant any personal offence to him; on the contrary, he had the greatest respect and regard for him, and was perfectly aware of the purity of his hon. friend's taste in architecture. All he had ventured to suggest was, that the building they then possessed, notwithstanding many apparent defects, was, in fact, admirably fitted for the great purposes for which they assembled in it.

Motion agreed to.