§ Mr. Stanley moved the Order of the Day for the further consideration in Committee of the report on the Public Works (Ireland) Bill.
Mr. O'Connellinquired whether the Commissioners were to have salaries, and who was to be at the head of the commission?
Mr. Stanleysaid, it was the intention of Government that they should be paid, but no provision was made for their salaries by this Bill. The amount was to be submitted to Parliament in annual votes. He wished to state, that the number of Commissioners was to be reduced from five to three, by the desire of the gentleman who was to be employed as head of the commission, and who wished for as little assistance as possible. That gentleman was 45 Colonel Burgoyne, of the Engineers, who sacrificed a place of greater emolument for this, and he had no doubt his character and qualifications for the office would be found of a superior description.
Mr. Humeunderstood, that two Boards of Commissioners were to be abolished, and that some of the members were to have superannuations: he wished to be informed who they were, and whether they were not competent to act under this Bill, so that the public might save the amount of their pensions.
Mr. Stanleysaid, there were four Commissioners of one Board, who could make no claim for superannuation allowances. There were three of another, who had never attended to the duties of office, and yet were in the receipt of salaries. The substituting of one set of Commissioners for these two, who would not only do all the duties the two Boards had performed, but would also include the Post-office department, would cause a saving in the public expenditure of 1,300l£. a year.
Mr. Humesaid, that was no answer to his question which concerned individuals only, and he desired to know how many of the old Commissioners were to have superannuation allowances, and whether, instead of receiving these, they could not perform the duties attached to the new board. He feared they might hereafter be told, if they appointed new Commissioners, that they must still maintain the old ones.
§ Mr. Spring Ricesaid, that when they came into the Committee, his right hon. friend would produce the name of every Commissioner, his present salary, and claim for superannuation. The Commissioners for Inland Navigation had no such claim, the object for which they were appointed being of a temporary nature. The other Board was different, the provisions of an Act of Parliament by which they were appointed, being different.
Mr. Stanleyobserved, that two of the Commissioners to be appointed had already public situations, the salaries of which would be saved on their receiving their appointments. Indeed, one of them gave up a situation of superior emolument.
§ Mr. Alexander Dawsonsaid, the measure had been brought forward as one calculated to relieve the distresses of Ireland; he feared it could have no such effect. The principle on which it went was a loan and the utmost care was taken by the Act, that the money to be advanced was to be 46 repaid with interest. He could only say, Ireland might as well obtain 500,000l. from the Jews in the Minories, and could obtain it on as easy terms. The measure would neither promote the execution of public works, nor alleviate the existing distress. He was one who conceived the measures of the present Government, with respect to Ireland, were based on a shortsighted and most unstatesman like policy. Instead of bringing forward some comprehensive plan for the relief of the poor of Ireland, by the developement of its native resources, Ministers were merely treading in the steps of their predecessors with some petty pence-table temporary expedient, which could be productive of no permanent advantage. It would not even save a starving population, or keep them from inundating this country with paupers. The proper principle was, so to expend money that it might contribute to the permanent improvement of a country. If they looked to the reports of the surveyors appointed during the vice royalty of the Marquis Wellesley, they would there see a proof of his assertion, for by the money expended in the western districts of Con-naught and Munster, the revenue had actually increased three or four fold. They would find villages had grown up where no house had previously existed, and that the habits of the people had been most materially amended. They might, by such means, judiciously employed, disband part of the Yeomanry and police force, for no fears could exist when the people were employed and contented. Previous to the Union, and after the Statute of 1779, Ireland made more progress in ten or twelve years than any other nation in Europe. That was effected by the principle laid down by the Irish Legislature, to expend some part of the public money in improving the natural advantages of the country, and that it was wise to encourage individuals to employ their capitals in the promotion of national works. What was the result? The Grand Canal, a most important means of communication was undertaken and completed principally by the means of individuals. Subsequently, however, a more sound principle had been laid down, which it was his desire to see imitated. It had been then arranged, that when public works were proposed, a satisfactory estimate of the probable cost should be produced, and on two thirds of the amount being advanced by individuals, the 47 remaining third should be paid forthwith out of the public treasury. This had produced infinite good. If they looked abroad, they would find the Government of this country pursuing the same principle, by forming great canals in the American colonies, without the paltry consideration of pounds, shillings and pence. Would they not act in the same generous manner to the sister country? He objected to the present measure from its being illiberal in its principles. He proposed, that instead of a loan, a grant of 500,000l. should be made for the erection of public works in Ireland
§ Lord Althorpwas ready to admit, that great part of what the hon. Gentleman had said was well founded, for experience had proved, that large grants of money, if judiciously laid out, might, in the course of time, produce considerable revenues. Many large private fortunes had been created by such methods, but he was afraid that, in the present state of the finances, it was quite impossible to grant such a sum to Ireland, even with the hope of its becoming hereafter productive. As they were unable to grant money, they proposed, which was the next best thing in their power, to lend it; and the hon. Gentleman should remember, that circumstances at present were different from the circumstances of the country before the Union. He had little doubt but that Ireland would receive almost equal benefit from a loan as from a grant; and he hoped, that the giving employment to the poor would improve their condition.
§ Mr. Leaderwas prepared to admit, that the present condition of Ireland rendered it imperative on every Representative of that country to hail with satisfaction any measure calculated to extend employment and augment the stock of national wealth. In the many public meetings which had been held in Ireland, attended by the most influential resident landed proprietors, it had been agreed, on all hands, that a permanent national loan fund, reissuable as the instalments were paid, and again lent under suitable restrictions, would afford immediate present relief, and confer lasting benefits on Ireland. It was a common thing for hon. Members in that House to rail loudly at Irish discontent, at the existence of crime, the insecurity of property, and the emigration of the pauper peasantry to England, by which the English labourer was thrown out of 48 employment, and the amount of poor-rates increased. But, while these unhappy circumstances were generally admitted, it was obvious that, until the present measure, there had been no attempt at a remedy. He agreed with the right hon. Gentleman, the member for the city of Limerick, that a loan would give present relief, and he was not disposed to cavil at the terms, or object to any reasonable provisions which might be introduced into the Bill, to secure the due application of the advance, and its punctual repayment. It was, however, his duty to press strongly upon his Majesty's Ministers the urgent necessity of making parishes and districts in Ireland, capable, by legislative enactment, of assessing themselves for local improvements, which had become indispensable for the improvement of Ireland. In what other way could the country be reclaimed, or the people employed? Local assessment for local improvements was not a new principle—it had been tried and had worked with facility and the greatest success in Holland. Since the right hon. Gentleman, the Secretary for Ireland, had brought in his Bill, an intelligent friend of his (Mr. John Musgrave), the brother of the member for the county of Water-ford, had been to Holland, for no other purpose than to procure the most accurate information as to every particular connected with the system of public works in that enterprising and prosperous country. As he had been favoured by Mr. Musgrave with a letter on this important subject, he would shortly state the particulars on which that gentleman laid the greatest stress. His letter, and the valuable information he had given to the Committee sitting to inquire into the state of Ireland, had entitled him to the gratitude of every person interested in its prosperity. "The leading principle," he said, "of their (the Dutch) system, which is the growth of centuries, has been, 'to allow local authorities to regulate local concerns.' Each district, whether it be a parish or a province, has had the management of its own parochial or provincial concerns, with as little external influence as possible; but where public works of any magnitude were contemplated, they have, since 1795, had the assistance of a scientific general Board, called the Waterstaat, or Board of Public Works. Each province previously possessed a Board of a similar kind. The commission appointed to draw up the 49 fundamental law, in their Report, published in 1815, consider the Provincial States to have been one of the most important and useful of their ancient political institutions, and attribute to them much of the wealth and greatness of the United Provinces. The president of that commission, Count Hogendorp, who is well known as one of the ablest statesmen and writers in Europe, yesterday told me, that the powers of these Provincial States have been too much curtailed, although they are still very great. Measures of local utility can always be better digested and decided upon by local assemblies, than by a national legislature, whose time must be insufficient even for the due consideration of laws which affect the general interests. The Dutch provinces vary considerably in population and extent; that of South Holland containing 480,000 inhabitants, while Drenthe contains only 63,000. Every province has its own States, consisting of deputies elected by the nobles, by the cities, and by the landholders, the number of deputies from each class being fixed by law for every province. They all sit together, and the governor of the province presides. All public works, charities, tribunals, schools, &c. &c. within the province are subject to their control; but works of merely local interest are under the management of local Boards or Corporations. In cases of repair, the Provincial States act by their own authority, but new works must be approved of by the Waterstaat. The dykes, and works for drainage, are generally managed by local associations, and are supported by taxes levied upon the lands, or other property benefited by them, such property being designated sometimes by the Provincial States, and sometimes by Royal Ordinances. To each province there are attached one or more engineers, who are approved of by the Waterstaat, and paid by the province; but there are also superior engineers, who are paid by the Government for a more general superintendence. The Provincial States nominate, from among themselves, a permanent deputation, who constantly assist the governor of the province, and have extensive powers, for the proper exercise of which they are responsible to the Provincial States, at their annual or other meetings. All the accounts of local authorities, which are of a public nature, are investigated by these States; and those of the States themselves 50 are audited by the National Chamber of Accounts. In short, every province is, in most respects, a miniature of the kingdom at large. The revenues of the Provincial States arise—First, from an addition of six per cent to the national taxes within the province, which is collected by the government, and paid over to the provincial treasury; secondly, from public works, and other property belonging to the province—an instance of a like nature occurs in Cheshire, in which the tolls of the Weaver navigation yield more than 23,000l. per annum, in aid of the county expenditure; and, thirdly, from direct or indirect taxes, which have been submitted to, and approved of, by the King. Their powers of taxation, with the consent of the King, are very extensive, although much less than they were previously to 1795, when each province was nearly independent. The produce of such taxes is applied, under their direction, to objects of provincial or merely local utility. The ten northern provinces contain less than 2,500,000 of inhabitants, of whom more than one-third are Catholics. They consist of between 6,000,000 and 7,000,000 of English acres, or little more than Con-naught; and the soil of many very extensive tracts, particularly towards the east, is as miserably poor as that of Cunnemara. The whole is divided among nearly 380,000 fee-simple proprietors. The population is, on the whole, at least as dense as that of Ireland, but nothing can be more humiliating to an Irishman than the striking contrast between the poverty of his own countrymen and the general appearances of comfort and wealth in the ten northern provinces, where their comparative natural advantages would lead one to anticipate directly the reverse. Although the poor have not here any legal right to be supported by their neighbours, their wants are relieved by public and private charities; and, in the year 1828, I find that more than one-seventh part of the entire population of the Netherlands received assistance, from permanent funds and voluntary contributions, to the amount of nearly 900,000l. The rich provinces of North and South Holland are, together, much less than your county, and consist wholly of islands, which are liable to be inundated by the Rhine, or by the ocean. Many parts of them are at least ten feet beneath the level of the lowest tides, and others are composed of sands, which would be 51 blown away, if great precautions were not adopted to fix them. M. Wyebeking, an eminent German writer, has calculated, that if the public works, which exist in these ten northern provinces, were to be now executed, they would cost upwards of 350,000,000l. sterling; and this statement has been fully corroborated to me by the best authority here. This expenditure has, in fact, gradually created the United Provinces out of a territory, which originally was not more favourably circumstanced than Connaught; but the greater part appears to have been expended in North and South Holland. A system, which has rendered such a country, although constantly struggling for existence against the sea, or against powerful enemies, one of the most productive parts of Europe, is deserving of deep attention; and some parts at least may be usefully imitated in Ireland, whose unequalled natural advantages have not, by similar institutions, been made available in promoting the happiness of its inhabitants. When any new public work is proposed in Holland, such as an extensive drainage, or canal, or embankment, a portion of the expense is almost invariably defrayed, either from the national or from the provincial revenues, without requiring repayment from those who undertake such works. The Dutch have learned, by experience, that such prudent liberality is amply repaid by the additional revenue which arises from the increased wealth and prosperity of the improved districts. The wisdom of this policy has, even in the United Kingdom, been abundantly confirmed by the valuable statements of Mr. Telford, relative to the effects of the Highland roads and bridges, and by Messrs. Nimmo and Griffith, in their reports upon the public works which have been executed in the west and south of Ireland. These instances are principally of importance, from their demonstrating that the amelioration of the moral habits and conduct of the inhabitants, who are within the influence of those public works, fully keeps pace with the physical improvement of the country." He felt it his duty to press on the consideration of the right hon. Gentleman, the Secretary for Ireland, and on his Majesty's Government, the propriety of adopting some such system in Ireland. If it had worked so well in Holland, why should it not be adopted in Ireland? He wished the House to 52 recollect, that in the provinces of Ireland in which industry received no assistance, the revenue was decreasing; and where industry was aided, the revenue was increasing. He held in his hand a paper, strikingly illustrative of the truth of this assertion, and which was eminently calculated to furnish strong reflections on the present state of Ireland. It was a comparative view of the Customs and Excise duties in the several ports and revenue districts of Ireland in 1820 and 1829, made from official documents. In this document, the melancholy and undoubted gradual decline in the Customs and Excise in the province of Leinster was most striking—the small advance in Ulster and Munster was likewise deserving of attention, and it deserved the most serious reflection, that the only part of Ireland in which there had been any increase in the revenue worth mentioning, was the province of Connaught, where local improvements had, for the last ten years, been encouraged by public money. He was sure, that Ireland was capable of repaying, in revenue, in the consumption of British manufactures, and in increased strength to the empire, whatever might be expended on her improvements. He assured Ministers that the urgency of the case did not admit of delay—if Ireland was to be tranquillized, and England relieved from the heavy infliction of an annual invasion by Irish paupers, this great blessing could only be achieved by the determination of his Majesty's advisers, to secure the affections of the people of Ireland, by raising them to the level of surrounding nations. Their hard lot awakened the commiseration and sympathy of every friend of humanity. They must be no longer neglected or overlooked—the reduced prices of landed produce made it necessary to glean the last grain of the harvest to supply the urgent demands of the clergy and gentry, who were compelled to tear from the people the very food they produced, to enable the absent and resident proprietors to purchase the necessaries of life.
Sir John Bourkecommended the caution with which Government was proceeding in making any application of the public money towards the relief of Ireland. He was perfectly convinced, that when the head of the Board, to the care of which the fund now about to be granted was committed, came before the House, with a report of the proceedings of the Commissioners, 53 and their result, a great encouragement would be given to the employment of public money, in future, in a similar manner. He was convinced, that the greatest benefit would be found to result from this loan. To provide employment for the poor, and facilitate communications were the two things now to be desired for Ireland. Although the sea on the Western coast abounded with fish, and the shore with weeds most useful for manure, yet from the want of capital, and the absence of the means of communication with the interior, the inhabitants were unable to avail themselves of the advantages. Wherever money had been expended in the promotion of public works, there the condition of the people had improved in a greater proportion than could have been expected, while the revenue was increased. This was proved in the cases of Connaught and Galway. In one town of the latter county, where public money had been expended for improvements, the revenue had increased within a few years, from 600l. to 900l. With these facts before him, he felt it to be his duty to support any measure which had for its object the promotion of public works in Ireland.
§ Mr. Spring Ricethought, that instead of indulging in this desultory conversation, the House had better proceed at once to the consideration of the report.
§ The House resolved itself into a Committee.
§ Mr. Alexander Dawsonthought the observations of the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, were no apology for the smallness of the grant. Where so much as 3,000,000l. or4,000,000l. were annually drawn from Ireland in the shape of taxation, England was bound to do more for the promotion of public works in that country than this Bill proposed. The simplest remedy for absenteeism would be, to allot some small portion of the revenue derived from Ireland to the improvement of her national resources. He was satisfied, that great advantages would accrue to both countries, if some measures were taken to facilitate the conveyance of corn from the inland districts of Ireland to the manufacturing counties of England. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, "He had no money, and could not afford any for a grant: his answer to that was, allow a lottery for Ireland, and you will have money enough for that and many Other useful objects.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, it was curious to observe the different propositions that were made for the benefit of Ireland. His hon. friend who had just sat down, thought that a system of gambling, introduced into that country, would be a remedy for some of its evils. A lottery was his panacea. Again they were told truly that Connaught although one of the most distressed and impoverished districts of Ireland, was still one of the most productive to the revenue. The hon. member for Kilkenny attempted to account for this by the amount of public money expended there, but he remembered when there was not a village in Con-naught without a private still. The reduction, however, of the duty on whisky had rendered it no longer worth while to resort to illicit means of obtaining it; and the consequence had been, that 50.000l. or 60,000l. a year had been added to the revenue derived from the province of Con-naught. That, he was afraid, was the sole cause of the increase to which the hon. Member had alluded. As much money has been laid out in Munster as in Con-naught, and yet there the revenue had not increased. He admitted the validity of many of the objections taken to the Bill, still he was ready to accept it, because he was of opinion, that any increase, however small, in the improvement of Ireland, ought not to be rejected. The peasantry of that country were in such a condition, that something must be done for their relief; and if this Bill should be the means of furnishing any portion of them with employment, so far at least it would be productive of good. Was there a probability of obtaining an immediate grant he would press for it. But as the noble Lord had declared that the finances of the country were not in a condition to warrant him in making an absolute grant of any considerable sum, he had only to take the next best thing he could get which was the present Bill. He believed it would give employment to a small extent, and therefore he would support it.
Mr. Stanleydid not wish to enter into any discussion unconnected with the immediate subject before the Committee, but he certainly was of opinion, that very large sums of money might be beneficially laid out in Ireland. His noble friend had stated very truly, that in the present circumstances of the country, he could not call for a large sum by way of grant. At all events, if this money was to be lent, 55 although it would for the time have the effect of increasing the burthens of the country, yet it should be recollected, that it would not be lent, except under certain restrictions; and after it was paid, the principal and interest would be a sufficient return to the country for the money laid out. He rose, however, for the purpose of saying, that he thought it very probable that some portion of this grant would be borrowed on Grand-Jury assessments, though, at the same time, he was far from saying, that the money so borrowed would be a large portion of the whole; but there were persons who could afford to give security for the performance of public works independent of any Grand Jury assessments, which could not take place before the next assizes in March. What he desired to say was, that before that time he hoped very great improvements would be made in the existing system of the Grand Jury laws, which would tend to remove some of the heavy burthens now imposed on the peasantry. He would not enter into the subject further than to say, that an enactment relating to the proposed improvements in the Grand Jury laws was almost ready to be laid on the Table, but he abstained from presenting it until an opportunity could be found for discussing its principles by Gentlemen conversant with the making of these laws.
§ Mr. George Robinsonwas aware, that the English Members generally might not wholly object to this sum being made a grant instead of a loan, but while they were on the subject he must press his opinion that the landed proprietors of Ireland, should be made to contribute to the support of its poor. He alluded to this subject solely for the purpose of most strongly protesting against England being called upon to vote large sums of money, for the relief of the Irish people, exclusive of considerable sums sent over by charitable individuals, while the property of the absentee proprietor was not liable to support the paupers engendered on his own estates. The serfs, he might call them, of the absentee, were compelled to cross the Channel in large numbers, at certain seasons of the year, to obtain the means of paying their landlords' rent. They depreciated the value of labour in this country, and by these means made the landed proprietors here contribute to the support of the Irish poor, as well as their own. The wages abstracted by the Irish poor from our 56 own labourers, had to be made up out of the poor-rates. In fact, the English proprietor partly contributed to pay the high rents which the absentee Irish proprietor obtained for his land. It was now too late to attempt to apply palliatives to the state of Ireland. That country was daily increasing in wretchedness. He had at all times wished to benefit her, and as he understood the money now proposed to be advanced would be repaid, he would not object to the measure, and had only made these remarks in consequence of the observations of the hon. member for Louth, against the principle of which he most earnestly protested.
§ Mr. Spring Ricebegged to call the attention of the Committee to the question now before them, which was one particular clause of the Bill, while hon. Members were indulging in desultory observations applicable to the whole measure.
Mr. Blackney,notwithstanding the remarks of the right hon. Secretary, must make a few observations upon the speech of the hon. member for Worcester. In Ireland, a sum of 120,000l. was taken from the pockets of the poor, and retained by the treasurers of counties, for purposes they only understood. In the county which he had the honour to represent, there was 8,000l. or 10,000l. locked up in this way, to the very great prejudice of the people, and he must confess, that as an Irishman he felt himself much hurt that an English Gentleman should stand up in that House and say, the people of Ireland were dependent upon this country. The generous disposition of Englishmen had been shown when the Irish people needed it, but he hoped another part of their character was, not to boast of their good works. If Ireland was governed as it ought to be, England would not be required either to lend or give her wealth—she had enough of her own.
§ Mr. George Robinsonwished to explain. He was sure the House understood him merely to allude to Ireland applying for relief, towards which its own landed proprietors did not contribute.
Mr. Blackneysaid, that during the very short time he had been in the House he had remarked, that whenever any measures relating to Ireland were brought forward, they met with comparatively little attention. He insisted that Ireland had abundant resources to support herself, and all that appertained to her, if she was only 57 treated with fair play, and he must indignantly repel the imputation that Ireland, as a country, was in any degree whatever a burthen upon England.
Mr. Humethought, the hon. Member, (Mr. Blackney) had altogether misunderstood everything which had passed that evening. He trusted, however, as he was so anxious to justify the character of Ireland, that he would be satisfied to see it placed on the same footing as Scotland. Why had not English institutions been adopted in Ireland as they had been in Scotland? The hon. Gentleman had informed them, and no doubt his authority was very good, that in his county, a small one, there was a treasury of 10,000l.; now, if they multiplied this by thirty counties, they would find lying in Ireland, actually unemployed, a sum of 300,000l. If, by any maladministration of the law, this money could not be applied to any useful purpose, that maladministration should be immediately remedied; in which case, according to the statement of the hon. Member, Ireland would want no assistance. She would then be placed in a situation in which he was most anxious to see her; but as a man who wished well for Ireland, he must say, that when the hon. member for Kilkenny came down, night after night, and asked them to do this and that, he was placing her in the situation of a beggar. He really thought, too, the hon. Gentleman wholly mistook the object of this Bill. He fully concurred in the propriety of rendering to Ireland the same assistance as to England and Scotland, in advancing all public works required to forward the interests of the country; but, notwithstanding he entertained these opinions, he must object to the present Bill. This declaration might, perhaps, be considered strange, but he would explain to the House why he held these opinions. The Irish Government, they all knew, had, over and over again, lent itself to complete systems of jobbing, which this Bill would perpetuate. Ever since he had been a Member of that House, the evils arising from certain institutions in Ireland had been constantly pointed out, and he therefore was surprised that his Majesty's Government had not brought in a Bill to remedy them. By this Bill a new Board was to be created in Ireland; but seven years ago there was a distinct Board in Ireland for the management of the receipts of Excise, and everything connected with 58 it, and the duties of this Board were transferred to one in London, because it was found that nothing could be done in Ireland without being locally mismanaged. What occasion, therefore, had they to create a new Board in Ireland, when there was one in England intrusted with the issue of public money, which was ready to receive applications to carry on public works, without the operation of any influence either at Edinburgh or Dublin? Why were the works in Ireland to be subject to local influence? The effect of the Bill would be, to create new Commissioners, new establishments, and new accounts, to be placed, in a great degree, under the control of the Lord Lieutenant, who was to approve of, and sanction, all charges to be referred quarterly to the Treasury in London. What business could the Lord Lieutenant have with the issue of this money? Had any individual anything to do with the issue of money for public works in Scotland? The subject should be wholly referred to the Commissioners already appointed. Why open new accounts with the Bank of England, when the Inland Commissioners were ready to attend to the distribution of the loan without additional expense? It was not becoming to see officers of engineers appointed, when there were so many individuals ready and competent to give an opinion on the practicability of carrying any work into execution. He objected to the whole principle of this Bill, but not to the advance of money on proper principles. He would agree to the advance of 1,000,000l. instead of 500,000l., if it were necessary, but he required to have it placed on the same footing as a similar; loan for England or Scotland; he required it to be kept free from favour or partiality, and placed under the control of a Board established many years, the members of which were perfectly competent to the discharge of their duty. How the Government could want new appointments at all he was at a loss to understand, when there was a Board at present constituted ready to perform the duties without additional salary or trouble. He begged the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to explain on what principle they were to have new accounts and new Commissioners. If the Lord Lieutenant was allowed to interfere, the management of the money would not be satisfactory. He should propose that the provisions of the 59 Act of 3rd George 4th, be extended, and that those Commissioners should be allowed to issue one million of money, in Exchequer bills, to Ireland. It would be the most independent course to place Ireland on the same footing as England and Scotland, and then all partiality would be done away. He had no objection to the return taking place in twenty-five years, although the expectations of Government would not be quite fulfilled, if the imaginations of those by whom this measure was advocated were founded on such extravagant premises as it contained. He had but little hopes of success, but thought he might be supported by Irish Members, when he said, that he was prepared to advance double the amount proposed by the measure, provided such advance was to be regulated on rational principles.
§ Mr. Spring Ricesaid, he hoped to satisfy the hon. member for Middlesex, that the Bill was founded on sound principles, and that the alterations he recommended were unsound. If his hon. friend would look at the money clause, he must be satisfied that the proceeding he advocated as the most preferable, was not neglected. The Treasury were responsible for all disbursements, and to prevent every suspicion of favouritism, all applications, whether rejected or received, were to be laid on the Table. If it was then said that the Board was not to be trusted, who must the House confide in, for that establishment was under their complete supervision? With respect to the next remark of his hon. friend, that he was ready to agree to a million being advanced, provided it was placed under the control of the Board established in London, which had the general management of monies issued for public works in England and Scotland, that part of the business certainly might be intrusted to it, but that Board must be as wholly incompetent to manage the general business to be regulated by the particular Board about to be created (and which it must be understood was to have attached to it all the duties which had been imposed upon two other Boards, which by this Act were to be abolished) as it would be, if the works were placed in Upper Canada. Whether taken on the grounds of expediency or expense, the present measure was the most feasible that could be adopted. His hon. friend had referred to the Grand Jury laws without, however, noticing that the 60 House had been apprised by his right hon. friend, the Secretary for Ireland, that great improvements were contemplated in their machinery. If they were asked why they did not wait until this improvement had taken place, the answer would be, that such a proceeding would delay most important public works, which were wholly independent of Grand Jury presentments. He alluded to the works of Galway, Sligo, and several others, the security of which could not be doubted. It surely would not be said, because the Grand Jury laws were to be reformed in the ensuing spring, that this Bill was to be delayed, at the risk of all sorts of disorders prevailing throughout the winter, for want of employment for the labourers. His hon. friend must at once perceive, that it would not be the means of adding sixpence to the Grand Jury assessments, because the Summer Assizes were over, and the new Bill would be before Parliament previous to the commencement of the Spring Assizes. The hon. member for Middlesex ought to have deferred his objections until the Commissioners had been appointed, and he was not correct in supposing, that the Treasury was not strictly looked after, or that the provisions of this Bill could be carried into effect by the gentlemen who undertook the issue of Exchequer bills in Broad-street.
Mr. Robert Gordonsaid, he quite concurred, as he hoped the House did, in the views taken by the hon. member for Middlesex. He had felt much surprise at the opinions delivered by the right hon. Gentleman who spoke last, when he recollected what was the Report of the Committee on Irish Salaries, to which he would refer the right hon. Gentleman. It was his own Report, drawn up by himself. He would there find it affirmed, that the Commissioners for public works never attended at all, and never did any duty whatever. If he was not mistaken, the right hon. Gentleman there recommended to Government the entire abolition of that establishment, the expenses of which amounted to 4,856l. per annum—the duty being the annual distribution of about 3,500l. of public money. In 1829 this small amount was reduced to 2,000l., and yet the salaries remained the same. He would, therefore, ask, whether the Commissioners of Inland Navigation could not be removed? There were abundance of means to have their duties performed without a new Board 61 being established, as would appear to every one who would take the trouble to read the Report. The London Commissioners were intrusted with the annual distribution of 3,500,000l. public money, and their average expenditure was about 1,500l. a year. Let the House compare this with the expenditure and distribution of the Commissioners for Inland Navigation in Ireland, and he was sure, that it would conclude that the whole measure required the utmost consideration.
§ Mr. Alexander Dawsonsaid, he certainly wished Ireland and Scotland to be dealt with equally. A million of money had been granted for the Caledonian Canal; and one half of the cost of roads and bridges had been defrayed at the public expense. He entirely approved of the undertaking, as it had very materially contributed to the civilization and improvement of the northern parts of Scotland, although the returns did not exceed 3,000l. a-year.
Mr. Humesaid, his hon. friend mixed up things together which were quite different. He wished to consider the subject then before them, without any reference to other subjects.
§ Sir George Clerksaid, he could not permit one observation, relating to the Caledonian Canal, which had fallen from the hon. member for Louth, to pass without some comment. He had said, that he considered that work as a strong proof of the advantage of expending public money in the improvement of the country. He and others took a very different view of the case. It had never been a favourite with Scotch Members, and had its origin in the caprice of certain other persons, who fancied it would benefit the empire at large. On such representations 1,500,000l. had been voted and expended, and the result was, that the tolls barely paid the expense of levying them. Could there be a stronger argument against the outlay of public money than this? The professed object of the canal was, to furnish employment to the Highlanders of Scotland, but not a man of them had been employed: the whole of the labourers were furnished by Ireland, who inundated the country as soon as the rumour went abroad that such a work was to be undertaken. He must add a few words respecting the subject now before the House. He concurred with the hon. member for Middlesex in the belief, that the proposed Board was wholly unnecessary, 62 and that it would be better to double the amount, and place its disposal in the hands of known Commissioners, rather than establish a set of new ones. The only argument in favour of the newly-created Board was, that it would personally decide whether undertakings were desirable or not. He doubted this. They would soon find dependants upon whose information they would rely. If Ministers must have a new Board, surely they might select the Commissioners from some of those whose offices were to be abolished, and thereby save their pensions and superannuation allowances. He considered that the only object was, to create patronage, but he would not oppose it further than thus to state his opinions.
Mr. Warburtonthought it far preferable to advance money for public works by way of loan than by gift, and he hoped to convince Irish Members that such was the case. It was well known, that in the latter case, persons of superior influence obtained all the advantage of the outlay, and the public only derived the advantage of the temporary employment it created, while the substantial benefits would remain in the hands of those who possessed influence. In short, it would be a job. If, on the other hand, the money was advanced as a loan, it would be employed in the embankment of rivers, the construction of roads and bridges, and other works of public utility. The money advanced for the Caledonian Canal had been partly a gift and partly a loan; it was never expected, that a return would be made for the money expended. Although he did not go to the extent of the hon. member for the county of Edinburgh, in affirming that that work should prevent them from engaging in others of the same description, yet it furnished a strong proof that Commissioners who were not responsible for a return of the money, employed it carelessly. As a loan they must be cautious how they advanced it, and whether the security for its return was sufficient. On every point of view, therefore, he was in favour of a loan rather than a grant, and he hoped the Irish Members would be of the same opinion.
§ Mr. James Grattantook the same view of the case as the hon. member for Bridport, and was fully convinced, that a loan, placed in the hands, and to be used under the authority, of a body of intelligent men, responsible for the proper application of 63 it, was preferable to an absolute gift. Employment, or Poor-laws, to support the starving peasantry, were their only resources, and large loans, judiciously applied for the furtherance of the former, was infinitely preferable to the certainty of the latter. If the money to be expended was an absolute grant, it would merely go to improve private property at the expense of the country. He approved, therefore, of the propositions now before them, and would support the further views taken by the hon. member for Middlesex, to increase the grant if placed in proper hands. He should prefer the money being placed in the well-tried hands of the London Commissioners to being intrusted to new men. He had seen the evils of bad management in the misapplication of money advanced with the best intentions, and he was therefore anxious to prevent similar results. In one respect, he feared, the Bill was defective. The money would get into the hands of Grand Juries, who could generally give the best security, but were so addicted to jobbing, as, he feared, would prevent the full benefit of the advance being obtained by the public; and therefore, when they came to that part of the Bill, he should call the attention of the House to that point.
§ Mr. Wysesaid, if the opinion of the Committee were as unanimous as the right hon. member for Limerick seemed to suppose, in favour of the principle of the Bill, he should certainly deprecate, as ill-timed and unnecessary, any further discussion, and urge, without delay, its immediate consideration; but as far as he could perceive, it was not yet decided whether the principle of the Bill was good or bad. Some hon. Gentlemen contended against the object, others against the machinery, others against both. Each of these questions was an ample subject for debate, and as he considered that several mistakes had been made by those who preceded him, he must revert to them. The object of the present Bill was, to promote public works in Ireland, and thereby stimulate the industry and civilization of individuals. If this object could be attained, every one must admit, that it would be laying a deep and broad foundation for the future happiness of Ireland. On this point he hoped, with the extended information they possessed, that very little doubt could exist. Let any one 64 examine the reports of Mr. Griffith, Mr. Munro, Mr. Grantham, Mr. Killaly, &c., and he would see ample evidence of the benefits, which could be conferred upon the most ungrateful soil, and the most secluded and remote districts of the country by a judicious outlay of capital. The great belt of bog stretching across the centre of Ireland, situated most advantageously for draining, by its level above the sea, its contiguity to great rivers, the nature of its material, the proximity of admirable manures, was sufficient to allure and justify the largest expenditure of human industry and capital. Look to the intercourse, whether by land or water, what a number of links and chains of communication might be established. In England, 4,800 miles of inland navigation stretched its various ramifications in all directions, and diffused activity, wealth, and prosperity; in Ireland there was not more than 490. The whole expenditure on the former had amounted, according to Mr. Nimmo, to 30,000,000l., and in Ireland to not more than 3,500,000l. The Shannon offered 234 miles of continuous navigation; 2,000,000 acres were situated on its shores; yet the report of Mr. Williams proved the disgraceful neglect into which it had been suffered to fall, through the apathy of Government, or of Companies to whom Government had transferred its rights. Not more than one bridge was to be found. Now, this separation of province from province was seriously injurious to the commercial interests, as well as to the moral habits of the people. The late distress in Mayo partly arose from the want of communication. Potatoes, which could not be had there, except at the highest famine price, were selling in the neighbouring districts for less than the ordinary value. In Tipperary, at no great distance from the Shannon, they scarcely repaid the price of cultivation. To improve the communication between different parts of Ireland, and in particular to improve its inland navigation, was a mine of wealth which might be explored with the greatest advantage, both to the Government and to individuals—to enrich the State and mend the fortunes of private men. The hon. member for Galway had asserted, that Connaught had advanced in prosperity; and certainly these new districts had advanced beyond the most sanguine expectations, by the simple opening of 65 communications with more cultivated portions of the country. He need hardly instance the case of Clifden, put forward with so much force by Mr. Nimmo. In a few years a town, not consuming, at first, a single article of exciseable commodities, returned to the Exchequer no less than 6,0001. per annum. Look again at the fisheries, which, even with so niggard an allowance as 5,0001. per annum, granted for a short period, had shewn a constantly-augmenting prosperity. But the hon. member for Edinburghshire, probably, was incredulous, and measured every expenditure of public money by the scale of jobbing in the projection and management of the Caledonian Canal. But there were other works executed in Scotland, to which the hon. Member might have adverted. He might have referred to the Reports of the Highland Road Commissioners, especially to the Report of Mr. Telford, in 1803. The expense of these roads was trifling, indeed, compared to their utility. Nearly 1,000 miles of road were executed for the small cost to Government of 150,0001., and the advantages in a country, which, in 1702, was altogether without roads, were so great, that Mr. Telford declares it was advanced thereby at least 100 years in civilization. The Commissioners declared, "That the want of further roads and communications has hitherto proved the greatest obstacle to the introduction of useful industry there; and that every attempt for that purpose must fail, until regular and easy communication is afforded from one part of the country to the other, and more especially from remote points, where there is the best field for useful exertion, to the present seats of capital and industry;" and they stated, "That the empire at large being deeply interested in those improvements, as regards promoting fisheries and increasing the revenue and population of the kingdom, justifies Government in granting aid towards roads and bridges, in a country which must otherwise remain, perhaps for ages, imperfectly connected." Such were the objects contemplated by the present Bill; objects which had not only been regarded in Scotland, and in England, but in France, in Holland, in Sweden, in America, in every country in the civilized world, as of the utmost moment to the well-being and security of the State. But the exception taken was not so much to the object, as to 66 the machinery by which it was to be attained. He did not assent to every portion of that machinery, although he could not acquiesce in the opinions of the hon. member for Middlesex. If they were simply about establishing some mode for the issue of 500,0001. Exchequer-bills in Ireland, the reasoning of the hon. Gentleman would be perfectly just; but they were about to establish a Board, which should have under its superintendence the great roads, the inland navigation, the fisheries, the public works, and the superintending the issue of the funds already granted, for carrying on all these. Did the hon. Gentleman seriously think, that one individual, though gifted with the powers and activity of the hon. Gentleman himself, would be capable of conducting all these? But surely said another hon. Gentleman, all these have been provided with their Boards already. Very true; but these Boards did very little, and were to be suppressed. The Bill provided for the consolidation of the duties and powers of each in that of the new Board. There were thus two purposes for which this Board was to be established; the one, the issue of these bills, the other the administration of these departments, and what might be sufficient for one, would not be for both. The hon. member might think that such Boards had never much to do—they certainly never did much—but what they neglected to do was important, and ought long since to have obtained the most solicitous attention of Government. Take the instance of the Shannon; would any man say, that the navigation of that river was not of the utmost importance to Ireland, and that Government, in whose hands it was, should not suffer it one hour longer to be neglected? So it was with their fisheries; laws had been made which it was not possible, under the present circumstances of destitution, for the fishermen to obey. Every description of fishing, but deep-sea fishing was prohibited; but where there was a dangerous coast, no piers or safety-harbours, and few boats, deep-sea fishing was impossible. But the chief difference among hon. Members appeared to be, as to the manner in which this issue ought to be made. Some hon. Members were for an absolute grant—others for a loan. He had more than once expressed it as his opinion, that whatever money might be allotted to Ireland, should be divided into 67 three portions, one to be applied in conditional grants, that was, half to be granted on the other half being subscribed by the applicants; the second, absolute grants to Government, for the execution of works on its own responsibility, particularly for the extension of the great mail-coach communications of the kingdom—the great lines of internal navigation, and other objects of a general and national character, the expenditure repayable by tolls upon such works (Government being, of course, accountable to Parliament for such expenditure and the receipts); and the third, applicable to loans, on joint or individual security. The present Bill applied 500,000l. to the last of these purposes, but not more than 50,000l. to the first, for which he conceived there was a far greater necessity and demand. The Highland Roads Commissioners, and the Fishery Board of Ireland, found such applications of public money productive of the greatest public and private benefit. Grants to Government, for specific works, on their own responsibility, would, he hoped, be attended to. The navigation of the Shannon, of which Government was proprietor, or rather trustee for the public, demanded immediate care. With regard to the application by way of loan, various objections had been urged. The former misapplication of similar grants had been alluded to. It was very true, that large portions of the 500,000l. recently granted were directed to purposes very different from those originally intended. A portion was borrowed by the Manchester Rail Road Company, through the influence of the late Mr. Huskisson; another portion was still locked up, intended for the Ulster Canal Company, though it was said, the original shareholders never completed their subscriptions. Much too large a sum, he also understood, was applied to the building of court-houses and gaols; yet, with all these drawbacks, it was incontestible, that very essential and permanent advantages had resulted to the country from such grants. A strict eye was now fixed upon such disbursements; and public opinion operated with more efficacy, and to a greater extent, on the conduct of public officers than formerly. He was not so sanguine, indeed, as to expect that this Bill would, as by miracle, exorcise from the land that overwhelming pauperism which now infested it. Some extensive and searching remedy, he was afraid, would be necessary, and, 68 ere long, must be applied. But whether poor-laws be introduced into Ireland or not, the present measure could not be otherwise than beneficial.
§ Mr. Sadlersaid, he had employed much time and attention in endeavouring to improve the condition of the Irish peasantry, and he feared the details of the present Bill would go in a great degree to defeat a measure he contemplated, for the establishment of a system of Poor-laws in that country. He saw no other objections to the principle of the Bill at present before them, and should not oppose the amount of the loan being increased, if the details of the operation could be improved; for to them he objected. Ireland was in such a situation, that no other measure than an improved system of Poor-laws could permanently relieve her. The present measure would, at the best, only alleviate for a time the distress, to return hereafter with a greater pressure. The present Bill tended to establish a kind of state-pawnbrokers. These grants always led to gross jobs: on this account he disapproved of them. The best men that Ireland had produced were of the same opinion. It was most necessary, before they gave power into the hands of untried men, that they should be very cautious. He did not intend to oppose the grant, but he should certainly persist in introducing his plan respecting a system of Poor-laws for Ireland the first opportunity, and should, in general, adopt the same view of the subject as was taken by the Irish Parliament about fifty years before.
Mr. Sheilwas decidedly in favour of the Bill. He certainly thought, that the Irish were entitled to some share of the patronage of Government, as far as was consistent with the proportion of contribution she paid to the general exigencies of the United Kingdom. All the expenditure of the State ought not to circulate exclusively through the great departments of the metropolis. If there was to be patronage, let it not be monopolized. He should undoubtedly prefer a gift to a loan, as some compensation for the enormous drains Ireland was exposed to. Not less than 3,000,000l. a-year had been for many years spent by Irishmen in England, without any equivalent in return. The Irish quit-rents, too, had lately been sold for a sum of 80,000l., and no account was given of the appropriation of this money, further than that it was understood 69 the amount had been expended to increase the magnificence of London. He was happy to perceive, by the Debate of this evening, that Irish affairs were likely to be discussed hereafter with moderation and temper.
§ Mr. Courtenaymerely rose to make an observation in reply to the hon. Member who spoke last but one, and who seemed to think the details of this Bill would obstruct the introduction of his measure for establishing poor-laws in Ireland. He took a different view of the subject, and thought it would facilitate the progress of that measure. He conceived that any measure which tended to give employment to the lower orders of that country, must facilitate the introduction of a system of Poor-laws. He agreed in the opinion, that the granting of money in the way proposed by this Bill, was likely to encourage jobbing. He believed that such would be the result. For thirty years that he had been in official employment, he had seen during three months more jobbing in Ireland than he had witnessed during the remainder of the thirty years.
§ On the question that the blank in the Bill be filled up with the number 500,000,
Mr. Humesaid, he had no objection to double this amount, if it was placed in the hands of the Commissioners sitting in London. He could not comprehend what occasion there could possibly be for creating the unnecessary Board proposed. It was certain, from the evidence taken before the Committee on the Irish Estimates, that the duties performed by the Inland Navigation Commissioners might be transferred without any difficulty whatever. They had no satisfactory evidence of the duties to be performed by the three individuals about to be appointed; besides, the issue of Exchequer bills, and the management of the works, were two perfectly separate and distinct things. It was impossible, therefore, for him to consent to any one clause in this Bill; at the same time he wished it to be understood, that he was willing to grant 1,000,000l. if it were necessary, provided the control of the money was placed in proper hands, and not vested in a new set of Commissioners. He would put it to the right hon. Secretary at War, as a member of the commission for simplifying accounts, whether he could read this Bill, and not at once perceive that the whole arrangement was directly contrary to the principle on 70 which they ought to proceed? He could only say, that it was diametrically opposed to the principles on which Government had hitherto proceeded, and on which he had given them credit for intending to act.
Mr. Stanleysaid, that the Board alluded to by the hon. member for Middlesex had peculiar duties to discharge, which were quite sufficient to occupy the whole of its time.
An Hon. Memberwished to know what those duties were, and he thought it might be advisable to ascertain them by a Committee up-stairs.
Mr. Stanleysaid, the Board had the duty of superintending all public works in Dublin; it took charge of all affairs relating to the Shannon, and superintended generally all the internal affairs of Ireland of this description. He thought, the Irish Members would agree with him that such duties could not be conducted with advantage to the public interests by any other establishment.
Mr. Humewas still of opinion, that the duties could be performed in the manner he had suggested, and that no other Board was necessary.
Mr. Warburtonsaid, there was no time limited in the Bill when these issues were to cease. That was a defect, the time ought to be correctly specified. As he understood the wording of the clause, it would imply, that there was to be a permanent transfer of capital from England to Ireland, which was objectionable.
§ Mr. Lefroysaid, it would be preferable to have an efficient Board in Ireland to an inefficient one here. He suspected, however, that one object of the Bill was, to make a provision for certain individuals, by giving them salaries. The utmost care should be taken that competent persons were appointed.
Mr. Humewished to know to what period the issue of these Exchequer bills was to be limited, and he presumed, that the usual rules applying to bills of this character would be observed.
§ Mr. Poulett Thomsonreplied, that the period would not exceed three years.
Mr. Humethought it was most important that efficient persons should be appointed Commissioners, and he had 71 some doubts, from what he had heard, that this was not likely to be the case. He wished to know the names of the two additional Gentlemen to be appointed, making five instead of three.
Mr. Stanleyreplied, that one of them was Mr. Radcliffe a member of the present Board of Inland Navigation, who had been brought up as an engineer, and was conversant with public accounts.
Mr. Humesaid, it was a singular appointment to take a member from a Board which it was the right hon. Gentleman's object to show was inefficient.
§ Mr. Spring Ricesaid, he had been an engineer, and was employed under Colonel Burgoyne during the late war. He had been appointed to his present place by the late Government.
Mr. Robert Gordonremained of opinion, that the contemplated Board was unnecessary. He held in his hand a statement of the expenditure by the Board of Inland Navigation. There were two Commissioners, with a salary of 5251. per annum each, and their chief business was to superintend the management of 1,698l. a-year. It certainly could not be necessary, on the abolition of such a Board, to establish a new one to perform such duties.
Mr. Warburtonwished to know, what occasion there was for any other persons but engineers to be appointed.
Mr. Stanleyin reply to the hon. Gentleman, must acquaint him, that the Board would have very difficult and complicated public accounts to keep, and persons not accustomed to them would not be competent to arrange them. Five Commissioners were necessary to manage the business.
Mr. Humesaid, that if Ministers really wished to appoint efficient Commissioners, they could not do better than follow the course which he was about to suggest. The wording of the clause at present was—"It shall and may be lawful by warrant or warrants, under and by virtue of the Royal Sign Manual, to nominate." Now, there he would stop, and insert something to this effect:—"The Commissioners now acting under the 57th George 3rd and 3rd George 4th, to be the Commissioners to execute the provisions of this Act." The effect of such an amendment would be, to transfer the duties to the Commissioners 72 in London, who would carry on the business, as far as the advance of money was concerned without any additional expense. He held in his hand a copy of the Act, to which the names of the Commissioners were affixed; and they might appoint Colonel Burgoyne, or any other officer, to reside in Dublin, and report on the fitness and expediency of the different undertakings. He hoped, that one simple plan of this description would be adopted in England, Ireland, and Scotland, when the whole business could be conducted with much less expense, and great advantage to the country.
§ Mr. Cramptonbegged to assure the hon. member for Middlesex, that the Board of Works in Ireland had very important duties to perform, the whole of the public works were under its charge.
Mr. Humesaid, would his hon. friend have the goodness to point out these works? He knew of none but those connected with Phœnix Park and the Castle.
Mr. Stanleysaid, the Board must sit in Ireland to superintend the proceedings. They had 310 miles of road under their own care and management a part of which consisted of the Holyhead road, the other parts were divided into small parcels which required much more care in their arrangements than if they were connected. He begged to call his hon. friend's attention to the papers on the subject of inland navigation, by which he would perceive that the duties of the Board were of an important character. The money would be demanded probably for objects of a local nature as well as for public works. Of course these must be judged of on the spot. His hon. friend said, they might have a superintendant, but that would not answer; they must have one always in Dublin, and another ready to go when called upon. This Bill, however, did not include salaries for the proposed Commissioners: when they came to the Miscellaneous Estimates was the proper time to discuss that question.
Mr. O'Connellwished very much to know where the roads were which this Board had under its superintendence. The roads in general were turnpike trusts, or under Grand Jury assessments. At least, all that came within his knowledge were so.
Mr. Stanleycould not mention where every one of the roads was situated. He knew of several, however; among others, were the roads from Limerick to Ashbourn, 73 and from Kilkenny to Kenmare, which were under their management.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, the right hon. Gentleman was, no doubt, correct. The Grand Jury presents, the county pays, a third party superintends, and finds a fourth party to contract for the execution.
§ Mr. James Grattansaid, such a divided responsibility was absurd, one efficient person was much better calculated to get the business properly done. An able engineer, such as Colonel Burgoyne was described to be, would provide proper persons to act under him.
Mr. Jephsonsaid, he believed the Ireland Commissioners acted through the agency of Surveyors appointed by themselves, and the Board to be appointed would do the same. It would, therefore, be of little consequence where the Board sat. The arguments of the hon. member for Middlesex had great weight; the business should be conducted by some general system, applicable to all parts of the United Kingdom. He did not see the necessity of separate Boards, which only served to prevent any efficient control being had by that House over their proceedings.
Mr. Humesaid, the Bill professed to have three objects in view, which were, an Issue of Exchequer Bills, the Management of Public Works, and the improvement of Inland Navigation in Ireland. These ought to be under separate heads; but when it was proposed to establish a Board in Dublin to embrace all these, its machinery must be complex, and confusion and irresponsibility would be the consequence. If the authors of the measure wished to avoid all suspicions of patronage, if they were anxious to have the public accounts simplified, and responsible officers to call upon, they pursued the worst possible method to obtain their object. If they really wished to obtain these desirable ends, combined with an economical application of the public money, let them appoint an able intelligent and experienced engineer to superintend the executive part, and he understood they could not make a better choice than Colonel Burgoyne; allow him to select proper persons to carry his orders into execution, and make him responsible to, and communicate directly with, the Treasury, or with the Board already established in London, and direct the documents and accounts to be placed on the Table of the 74 House. There would then be no occasion for all the machinery to be created by the Bill. Something like such an arrangement, it was his opinion, from all he had heard in the course of the debate, would be the most advisable proceeding.
Sir John Bourkesaid, if the Board was to be a deliberative body, it ought not to consist of less than three members. He approved of the establishment, and thought the personal attendance of the various Members would be necessary in different parts of Ireland. There were works required on the Shannon, such as Piers, embankments, &c. which would employ many persons. At the same time other works might be going on in distant parts, so as to make it impossible for one person to attend to the whole.
Mr. Callaghansaid, that with whatever parties the direction might rest, they ought to be resident in Dublin. A Board of Commissioners in London would not be efficient for the purposes required. He by no means, however, approved of the machinery to be established, it looked like providing places for several Gentlemen. The engineer to be appointed should not be one of the Commissioners, but act under them. As to the remark that this bill did not provide salaries for the Commissioners, if once they were appointed, the House would have little discretion left as to paying them. He should recommend postponement of the measure.
Colonel O'Gradycould by no means consent to leave the whole business to one engineer, he thought the appointment of a Board necessary.
Mr. Humesaid, they much underrated the talents of Colonel Burgoyne, if they did not think him adequate to superintend the application of half a million of money, when they knew that Mr. Telford was found competent to direct the expenditure of six times that sum. He should therefore move as an amendment, that to carry into effect the appropriation of 500,000l. in Exchequer Bills to be advanced for public works in Ireland, the Commissioners appointed by the 57th Geo. 3rd, and 3rd Geo. 4th be appointed. These were unpaid Commissioners. He did this to make provision for the appropriation of Exchequer bills. This might be done by the Commissioners in England, and they might appoint Colonel Burgoyne to superintend the works in Ireland, as Mr. Telford had been appointed in England.
§ Mr. Spring Ricecontended, that it would be absurd to re-appoint these Commissioners. Some of them were dead, and of the disposition of the others to act the House could know nothing.
Mr. Humesaid, his hon. friend had given an additional reason to postpone the consideration of this subject. The extra trouble to the Commissioners already existing would be very trifling. All applications made to them would be referred to their engineer, and he had no doubt they would be ready to act if requested.
Mr. Robert Gordonwished to inquire from the right hon. Secretary, if a Board of unpaid Commissioners could not be found in Dublin?
Mr. O'Connellsaid, as they had much important matter connected with the Re-form Bill to go through the next day, and as it was very late, he would move, that the Chairman report progress, and ask leave to sit again.
§ The House resumed; the Committee to sit again on Monday next.