HC Deb 11 August 1831 vol 5 cc1209-13
Viscount Palmerston

I wish to know, whether the hon. Baronet, whose motion with regard to Belgium stands for this evening, would have any objection to postpone it, after I shall state the circumstances which I am about to state to the House. Accounts have been received this day, that orders have been sent from the Hague to the Dutch troops, to retire from the Belgic territory; and as negotiations are about to be recommenced, I do hope that the hon. Baronet will see, that the bringing forward of his motion, under such circumstances, could not in any way conduce to the public advantage, while the discussion to which it would lead, might produce serious mischief. I trust that the hon. Baronet, after hearing this statement, will perceive the propriety of his not pressing his motion, which stands for this evening.

Sir Richard Vyvyan

Before I consent to postpone my motion, I wish to put a question to the noble Lord. I beg to ask him, whether he understands, that, in the event of the Dutch troops retiring from Belgium, the French troops are also to retire from the Belgic territory?

Viscount Palmerston

In reply to the question of the hon. Baronet, I beg to state that which I have already stated on a former occasion—namely, that such an assurance has been given by the French government.

Sir Richard Vyvyan

Though I gave notice of this motion several days ago, and though, having already once postponed it at the request of the noble Lord, I am rather reluctant to defer bringing it forward on this occasion, yet, after the statement which has been made by the noble Lord, that the negotiations are about to be recommenced, and after his assurance that accounts have been received, that the king of the Netherlands has withdrawn his troops from Belgium, so that there is no chance of our being engaged in conflict with him at present, I am not unwilling to postpone my motion which stands for this evening. I shall postpone it until we know, whether the French government will act up to the assurance to which my noble friend has alluded, and whether it will redeem the pledge which has been given to my noble friend, as well as to the ministers at Paris, namely, that in the event of the Dutch troops retiring from Belgium, the troops which had been ordered to advance by the French government, would be at once withdrawn from that territory. Aware of the feelings which at present exist in France, I am ready to admit, that it might be inexpedient to discuss this motion just now. I am anxious, however, to bring it on within a week, as we shall then know whether the French troops have been withdrawn or not. I therefore consent to postpone my motion for a given period, namely to this day week, as we have a right to expect to hear, within that time, that, the French troops have been withdrawn from Belgium.

Lord Stormont

I cannot say that, postponing this motion altogether meets my approbation. I had given a previous notice on the subject to which the motion of my hon. friend, that was to come on this evening, referred; but I at once gave way to my hon. friend, when he gave notice of his motion on the subject, feeling that the affair to which I was desirous to draw the attention of the House could be fully gone into in the discussion on that motion. As, however, my hon. friend has now postponed his motion for another week, and as I think that this is a matter of too great urgency to be delayed so long, I beg leave to give notice, that I shall, to-morrow, move for the production of certain papers relating to Belgium.

Mr. Croker

If it had not been for the notice of motion which had been given by the hon. Baronet in the first instance, I should have felt it my duty to have given notice of a motion in reference to a question of urgent and pressing necessity. I thought that, in the discussion to-night on the motion of the hon. Baronet, that question could be brought before the House. As, however, the hon. Baronet has postponed his motion, on the ground of public convenience, and in consideration of the existing state of things, I beg to give notice, that I shall bring forward a part of the subject of Belgium before the House. Indeed, so urgent and so pressing do I consider the necessity for bringing this matter under the notice of the House, that it is with great reluctance that I postpone it even for a single day. Before I bring it forward, I wish to ask my noble friend, at what time he or the Conference became acquainted with the letter from the minister of foreign affairs in Holland, dated the 2nd of August?

Viscount Palmerston

That letter was addressed to the ministers of the five Powers. It was placed in my hands on Wednesday week, at twelve o'clock, by the Plenipotentiary just arrived from the Hague, and I delivered it to the Conference on Thursday, at the earliest possible period.

Mr. Croker

I apprehend that my noble friend has fallen into a mistake with regard to the letter to which my question refers—I apprehend, that he speaks of the letter dated the 1st of August, but my question relates to the letter of the 2nd of August, which specially refers to that of the 1st.

Viscount Palmerston

What is the nature of the letter to which my right hon. friend wishes to draw my attention?

Mr. Croker

The letter to which I allude is to be found in the ordinary channels of public information. It appears to be a circular letter from the minister of foreign affairs for Holland, to all the ambassadors of all the Powers; and it begins by referring to the letter of the 1st of August, to which the noble Lord has alluded. The letter of which I speak has appeared in a public journal of great authority and extensive circulation. It has been published in The Times of this morning, and that journal, in one of its leading articles, has made observations upon it. I have been obliged to enter into this explanation, to show that, in the question which I have put to the noble Lord, I do not allude to the letter of the 1st, but to the letter of the 2nd of August.

Viscount Palmerston

I cannot answer my hon. friend's question at this moment positively as to the time that that letter was communicated to me. It was read to me and one of my noble friends in a very hurried manner by the minister of the Netherlands, subsequent to the meeting of the Conference, either on Friday or Saturday last, as well as I recollect.

Mr. Croker

I hope the noble Lord will be able to state to-morrow, when I shall bring forward my motion, whether it was on Friday or Saturday that that letter was for the first time communicated to him. I shall certainly bring forward my motion then, as the matter, I repeat, is one of urgent necessity.

Sir Richard Vyvyan

My noble friend, the member for Woodstock, has said, that he gave way to me on this subject, and he has now announced his intention to bring forward a motion on the subject to-morrow night. I have postponed my Motion in consequence of the existing state of things, and I would beg of my noble friend to wait until Thursday next. I shall be ready to resign the Motion then into the hands of my noble friend: but I do hope that he will not bring the question forward until that day.

Lord Stormont

In my opinion, this is a case which does not admit of delay, and I must, therefore, persevere in my intention of bringing it forward to-morrow night.

The Marquis of Chandos

I wish to ask the noble Lord, whether his Majesty's Government has not obtained information that the French troops have crossed the Belgic frontier, and have taken possession of Mons?

Viscount Palmerston

I have reason to know, that the French troops have crossed the Belgic Frontier, and that they have arrived at Mons.

The Marquis of Chandos

I beg to ask the noble Lord, whether the French troops have taken military possession of the citadel or the town of Mons?

Viscount Palmerston

Surely the House must perceive the very great inconvenience which would result from my being obliged to answer questions of this description. Any information which the House of Commons has a right to expect, I shall be always ready to communicate on the fitting occasion; but though it is in the power of any hon. Member to call for that information, I must say that it is too much for an hon. Member to come down here, and to ask me for the news of the day. Whatever information the House of Commons may require, in order to enable it to form an opinion of the policy of his Majesty's Government, I shall be always ready to give; but if Gentlemen expect, that his Majesty's Ministers are here to serve no purposes but those of a newspaper, I can assure them that they will find themselves greatly disappointed.

The Marquis of Chandos

I am sorry the noble Lord has thought it consistent with his duty to refuse to answer the question which I put to him. I felt it my duty to put that question to a Minister of the Crown; I only exercised a right which I possess, as a Member of this House, in putting that question, and I must say, that I have found, on the part of his Majesty's Ministers, a disposition to withhold from this House, and from the country, that information which they have a right to expect.

Sir John Wrottesley

I rise to order. I cannot allow the noble Marquis to cast such unmerited imputations on his Majesty's Ministers.

The Speaker

—There being no motion before the House, and as the noble Marquis has not stated that it is his intention to conclude with a motion, there is no doubt that he is out of order in the observations which he has been making.

Viscount Palmerston.

—There shall be no misunderstanding on the point to which the noble Marquis has referred. In answer to his Conner question, I stated that the French troops had crossed the frontiers, and had arrived at Mons. That is the only information in my possession on the subject.

Lord Eliot.

—I wish to ask the noble Lord whether, subsequent to a communication which the king of Belgium received from this country, that Monarch did not send a communication to the French government, requesting that the advance of the French troops into Belgium should not take place, and that the answer of the French government was, that the resolution having been taken, his request could not be complied with, and that the troops must advance?

Viscount Palmerston.

—Surely this question furnishes another instance of the inconvenience of which I have already complained, with regard to putting questions of this description. It appears that I am not merely expected to give the House accurate and detailed information as to every thing which his Majesty's Government has done, but that I am also expected to furnish the House with information as to what has been done by all the other governments in Europe. That does not, I conceive, form any part of the duty which I feel called upon to discharge.

Mr. Croker.

—The question which I asked of the noble Lord, I put to him because the subject appears to me to be one of urgent necessity, and because it will put him in possession of the object of the motion which, according to my notice, I shall bring forward to-morrow night. That motion I could, in the exercise of an undoubted right, as a Member of this House, bring on to-night, without any notice whatever, but I think it will be more courteous towards the noble Lord to fix it for to-morrow night.

The conversation dropped.