HC Deb 30 May 1821 vol 5 cc1043-6
Lord Milton

, in rising to move that the House do agree to the Lords' Amendments in this bill, thought it necessary to say a few words, in order to guard himself from being supposed to prefer the present state of the bill to the state in which it was when it left that House. He thought it would have been much better had the franchise been transferred to Leeds; but, considering that the main object of the bill was not so much the substitution of any particular place, as the disfranchisement of Grampound, he should be sorry to propose any proceeding that might lead to the loss of the bill altogether. He hoped, however, that on some future occasion a measure might be adopted better calculated to repair the defects in our representative system, and to preserve the balance which ought to be maintained between the various interests of the country. The present was the fourth bill of a similar character, which increased the weight of the landed interest in that House. Now, with all his natural partiality for the landed interest, he was decidedly of opinion that the House ought not to legislate in a way which might give to any individual interest an undue preponderance.

Mr. Wynn

said, he regretted the alterations made in the bill. As the Lords had agreed to the disfranchisement of Grampound, be thought it would have been better if they had sent down a separate bill mentioning the place to which they wished the franchise to be transferred. He thought the situation of the county of York, unless divided into two counties would be rendered much worse by having to elect four representatives in place of two. It would afford opportunities, of keeping open the poll, when there was no hope or chance of success. It was likely, too, that the West Riding would return all the four members, inasmuch as 14,000 polled there at the last election, and only 8,000 in the North and East riding. He wished, therefore, that the bill might be sent back to the Lords with an amendment, the object of which would be to provide that the West riding, including the city of York, should send two representatives to parliament, and the East and North riding two more. They might state at the same time that they did not insist on the amendment, and by that means incur no risk of losing the bill.

Mr. Stuart Wortley

said, that the House of Lords had placed them in a more cruel situation than they had ever before stood in. The question originally was, whether the elective franchise should be extended to the county of York, or given to the town of Leeds. That House had solemnly decided in favour of the latter proposition. The Lords had, however, entirely changed the bill. They said, "You shall not have two burgesses, but you shall have two knights of the shire." Now, he would ask whether, in a case affecting the rights of the Commons, the Lords ought to have made a change of such magnitude, without the most serious consideration. He would contend that by the alteration made in this bill the peers had added greatly to their influence. He would say that a greater misfortune could not happen to the county of York than the having four representatives in parliament. Looking, however, to the bill, he could not give it his sanction, for the mere purpose of securing the principle on which it was founded. It was a measure which satisfied nobody, not even those who were most favourable to reform. Their better course would be to reject this bill, to agree to a second for the disfranchisement of Grampound, and afterwards to consider to what place the elective franchise should; be granted.

The Marquis of Londonderry

admitted* that this was a case of considerable difficulty. For his own part, he did not think that the course pursued by the Lords was at all objectionable. In acting as they had done, the Lords had merely exercised their legislative power to give to the measure which had been sent to them that shape which the expedience of the case seemed to require. His hon. friend would wish merely to extinguish the right of voting in Grampound, and that being done, he would leave the other question to be settled afterwards. This would be most unwise, because he did not think that the other House had bound itself to the extinction of the right of electing two members for Grampound, without pointing out a place for which two members might be returned in their room, Will respect to the objections of his learned friend (Mr. Wynn), he would only observe, that if they passed the present bill, it could not be considered ah irrevocable measure. If his learned friend came forward next session, and pointed out the means by which two additional members might be elected for Yorkshire, in a manner more eligible than that which was now proposed, he did not think that the House would be precluded from agreeing to that bill, by voting for the bill now before the House. Parliament would separate with more credit to itself by agreeing to the bill in its present shape, than they would do if they rejected it, and waited till another session, although that were to bring forth the most perfect measure that the human mind could imagine.

Lord J. Russell

said, the question was, whether or not the bill, as amended, was so ill adapted to its object, that it would be well to reject it. The object was first to reform the borough of Grampound, and then to transfer the right of returning two representatives to another place. It had been decided that the borough was corrupt, and that the elective franchise should be transferred to some other place, and to this the Lords had agreed. The Commons had proposed to give the franchise to the borough of Leeds, the Lords decided that it should be transferred to the large county of York. Now, though he wished that Leeds should return two members to parliament, he was still of opinion that more members ought to be given to the county of York. He was therefore content that the bill as amended should pass; but in a future session, he proposed to call the attention of the House to the claims of large towns to send members to that House.

The amendments were agreed to. After which, lord Milton gave notice that he would tomorrow move for leave to bring in a bill "for facilitating the taking of the Poll on contested Elections for the County of York."