§ On the order of the day for bringing up the report of this bill,
Sir T. Lethbridgesaid, he should postpone his opposition to the bill; until the third reading, when he hoped it would be seriously discussed. He was informed that the measure was disagreeable to the Catholics of Ireland, and he could not see how they could be contented with that part which had formed the second separate bill.
§ Mr. Abercrombyregretted that the hon. baronet had not been in his place upon a former night; for in that case he would have heard a succession of Irish members bearing testimony to the general satisfaction which the measure gave to the loyal and intelligent Irish Catholics. It no doubt would give dissatisfaction to others; for it would reduce some who possessed an unworthy desire of power to a state of deserved insignificance.
Mr. Martin,of Galway, said, he had several letters from leading Catholics, expressing themselves satisfied with whatever the House should agree to on this subject; and also their confidence that the clergy would be finally reconciled to it. He understood that Mr. O'Connell, who wished to get up an aggregate meeting in Dublin, could not get nine persons to sign the requisition. Mr. O'Connell might naturally regard the measure with no particular anxiety, as he might feel convinced that if it rained offices as thick as bail, one would never Tall on his head.
§ The report having been read,
§ Mr. Crokerrose to propose a clause to which he had already called the attention of the House, with regard to a provision for the Catholic clergy. From the manner in which this proposition was received, 1498 when he first mentioned it, he was led to conclude that its principle was generally approved by the House. That it was a measure of vital importance, could not be rationally denied. He had not, indeed, conversed with any one, either within or without that House, who objected to the principle of his proposition. His right hon. friend who had brought forward the bill, had, no doubt, objected to his proposition, not upon the ground of principle, but of time and expediency. Therefore, he was induced, to wave his purpose until the present moment. On the ground of expediency, it was urged by the learned proposer of this bill, that a measure of this nature should proceed from the government. But to such an opinion he could by no means subscribe; for by what constitutional rule could it be maintained that a grant of money should originate any where but in that House, or be voted by any other power than that of the parliament? But, to what government was it meant to refer for such a grant? Why, to a government divided against itself; scarcely two members of which were ad idem upon this point respecting the Catholics. That it would belong to government to consider the extent and apportion the distribution of the money to which his motion referred, he was ready to admit; but although it would be for government to execute, it was not for government to begin such a measure. Again, it was urged, upon the score of expediency, that before a measure of this nature was submitted to the House, it would be right to consult the Catholic clergy of Ireland, whether they were willing to accept such an allowance. But, if the clergy should express a wish for the proposed grant, what must be the consequence to the peace of Ireland, should their hopes be dashed by the dissent of parliament from the proposition? He was convinced that the most important good could be done at a paltry expense. The details which he had collected, he had embodied into a bill. Another objection to his proposition was, that the adoption of it might endanger the success of this bill. But, was danger to be apprehended from the clamour of Dr. Milner, or those who co-operated with him? How strange, that those who assumed the attitude of wise statesmen, should deprecate the measure he proposed, although convinced of its justice, merely from an apprehension that its 1499 adoption might excite the clamour of individuals. His right hon. friend had described the present measure as one which wits to put an end to the dissensions which had distracted Ireland. And how was the House going to make this final compact? Why, by leaving one of the most important subjects out of the treaty. By such a proceeding, distention would be kept alive; and when they considered themselves safe in port, they would be once more obliged to put to sea. If he were asked to state the quarter from which danger had always been most apprehended, the Statute Book would answer for him. The very first penal statute for suppressing disloyalty was levelled, not at the laity, but at the Catholic clergy of Ireland. He should have considered himself guilty of a neglect of duty, if he had not endeavoured to procure the assent of the House to the principle of making an adequate provision for the Catholic clergy. With regard to the extent of that provision, he thought it should enable them to maintain themselves with a suitable degree of respectability. At the same time, it ought not to be so large as to render them wholly independent of their flocks. He concluded by moving a clause, recognising the expediency of the principle of making a provision for the Catholic priesthood.
Lord Castlereaghrose to express a strong doubt as to the propriety of the course which his hon. friend was pursuing. No individual could feel more deeply than himself the expediency of following up the bills before the House, by some such measure as that which his hon. friend was desirous of effecting; but the question was, whether this was the proper moment for proposing it? He had no doubt that, if the subject were brought forward at the seasonable moment, it would meet with that general concurrence, which would afford the best pledge to the Catholic clergy of the desire of parliament to contribute to their comfort. The motion was inadequate to its object; for it could only be rendered effective through a recommendation from the Crown. If the clause proposed to be brought up were now agreed to, the measure could not be final; for they would still have to determine the scale of expenditure. So far from forwarding the object in view the proposition would have the effect of placing-the measure in a retrograde position. Besides, it would 1500 come more properly as a mark of grace and favour from the Crown. Under these circumstances, he trusted his hon. friend would consent to leave the question in a state of amicable repose. If it Were agreed to at this time, it might be considered as a sort of bribe held out to the Catholic clergy; and he owed it to that respectable body, to declare, that When he was authorized, under lord Sidmonth's administration, in 1805, to communicate to them that it was in the contemplation of government to make a similar proposition in their behalf to parliament, they stated, in the most respectful and disinterested manner, that they could not, consistently with duty and honour, receive such a mark of grace and favour at that moment.
Mr. Hutchinsondeprecated the introduction of the measure at any time, without a perfect understanding: between the Catholic clergy and the government.
§ Mr. Crokersaid, that his object was, in a great measure, gained, by the admission of the principle which he proposed; and therefore, with the leave of the House, he would withdraw it.
§ The clause was then withdrawn, and the report agreed to.