§ The House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply to which the Miscellaneous Estimates were referred. On the resolution, "That 60,000l. be granted towards defraying the expense of the building of a Penitentiary House at Millbank, for the year 1818,"
Mr. Gordonsaid, that the House ought to be made acquainted with the way in which the sums before granted for the building of this establishment had been spent. It had been found necessary to take down some of the towers, they had been so badly constructed. The sum now required was for rebuilding.
§ Mr. Lockhartsaid, no less than 71,000l. above the sum at which the expense of this prison was originally estimated, had already been voted; and as a prison it had totally failed to produce the effect which the House had in view, namely, to deter from the commission of crime. It might indeed have produced, what, compared with the other, was a secondary object, the amendment of the criminal. But that was of small importance, compared with the deterring from the commission of crime. It might be Christian-like to endeavour to better these people, and to 770 send them into the world in a more comfortable condition than they were in before. The world, however, could dispense with them; for he believed the chasm in society, occasioned by the removal of culprits, could always be soon filled up. Notwithstanding the sums expended by the country in prisons and establishments of various descriptions, they found that crimes were perpetually increasing. There were other means to which they ought to turn their attention. A vigilant police ought to be established. The metropolis ought to be divided into districts, and a stricter watch set over those individuals who were habituated to crimes, and who were known not to obtain their living by honest means. If one quarter of the sum which they were devoting to this useless expense were expended on a watchful police, the commission of crime would soon receive an effective check, and they would not witness those disgraceful crimes which the metropolis had of late exhibited. He hoped the House would soon turn their attention to this subject. He did not think that a diminution of punishment could have the effect of preventing crime. A permanent and extensive effect could only be produced by a vigorous police. It was said that our prisons were nurseries of crime; that the. comparatively innocent, from associating with hardened criminals, returned to society much worse members than when they entered the prisons. Why, he would ask, in the prisons of this metropolis, should persons, whose guilt was not established, be kept five or six weeks in the company of hardened criminals? At present, instead of the criminals being punished, society was punished; and society was punished because it was so negligent.
§ Mr. C. Longsaid, the objections to the Penitentiary at Millbank ought to have been stated at an earlier period. It ought to be recollected that the Penitentiary was adopted by parliament after a great deal of discussion. He was astonished that the hon. gentleman should consider the amendment of the persons in that prison a secondary object. The hon. gentleman had said what was perfectly true, that innocent persons, from mixing with hardened criminals in prisons, came out depraved. Did he mean to say, then, that a system by which the amendment of prisoners was promoted, was not worth the attention of the House? It was true that a tower had been pulled down and rebuilt. 771 Those who planned and superintended the building had not the choice of the situation, which was pointed out by act of parliament. A small part of the building had given way, but the cause was known, and from the means which had been adopted, no further apprehension was entertained. All who had visited the building agreed, that it could not possibly be constructed on a plan better calculated to answer the object in view. The system appeared, as far as they had yet had any experience of it, to answer the purpose of those who projected it. This was very much owing to an hon. friend of his (Mr. Holford) who had devoted all his time to this object. Without a constant vigilance and superintendence, the hopes of the House from this prison would be frustrated.
§ Mr. Lockhartexplained. The right hon. gentleman had very much misunderstood him, if he supposed that he considered the amendment of prisoners a secondary consideration. He had merely said that this was secondary with reference to the greater consideration of preventing crime.
§ Mr. Arbuthnotappealed to the hon. member for Shrewsbury as to the amelioration in the conduct of the prisoners in the Penitentiary.
Mr. Bennetsaid, he approved, in great part, of the system pursued at Millbank, though he thought it admitted of improvement
Mr. Wynnsaid, that when they considered the great expense which the transportation of offenders occasioned to the country, and how little satisfactory the result had been, particularly in the case of females, they could not fail to view the Penitentiary plan as most beneficial to the country.
§ The Resolution was then agreed to.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerthen moved, "That 725,6811. 12s. 3d. be granted on account of the sum of two millions to be applied by his majesty, in concert with his majesty the king of the Netherlands, towards improving the defences of the Low Countries, by virtue of the Convention concluded on the 13th of August 1814." In proposing this vote, he had the satisfaction of informing the House, that the subject of the vote was not likely to occasion the charges upon the public that had at first been imagined; for the French government, it was a subject of considerable congratulation, had 772 made no delay whatever in the payment of the charges which they had to bear.
§ Mr. Warreobserved, that by the treaty of 1815 there was to be set apart 60 millions of livres out of the 125 millions of livres which was to be paid by France to the Netherlands, for the reparation of the fortresses on the Flemish frontier. The whole expense of the reparation of these fortresses was estimated at 137 millions of livres. He did not know whether these 60 millions had already been expended by the king of the Netherlands in contributing to the repair of the fortresses; and he could wish to receive some information from the noble lord on this subject.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, that as a consideration for the colonies ceded by Holland to this country, it was understood that Great Britain was to contribute equally with Holland towards the reparation of the fortresses on the French frontier.' Sixty million livres to be received from France were to be appropriated to the same purpose. The contributions from France were to be applied in the first place towards that expense. He could assure the hon. member that in all cases the sums received from France were appropriated to this object as soon as they came in; but the whole of the 60 millions of livres, had not been so employed, because this sum had not yet all come in.
§ Mr. Warreobserved, that by an additional article of the treaty we were bound to bear equally with the king of the Netherlands such farther charges incurred in the reparation of the Belgic fortresses as should not make the sum to be paid by Great Britain to exceed in the whole three millions. He should like to know from the noble lord how far we were liable to pay more than two millions towards the repair of the fortresses?
Lord Castlereaghsaid, the whole sum which Great Britain was bound to pay by the treaty, could not exceed two millions.
§ Mr. Warreasked, if by the treaty we could not be called on to pay three millions in all towards the Belgic fortresses?
The Chancellor of the Exchequerallowed that the treaty was not very clearly worded with respect to this matter; but there was a distinct understanding, that the whole sum which Great Britain should contribute towards the repair of the Belgic fortresses should not exceed two millions; and that the whole charge which could by any possibility be brought against Great 773 Britain by the king of the Netherlands should not exceed three millions.
§ Mr. Tierneywas willing to believe that this was the understanding at signing the treaty, still, however, the treaty itself might be thought to bear a different construction.
§ The Resolution was then agreed to.