The house resolved itself into a committee of supply, to which were referred the papers presented on the 15th by the secretary at war.
The Secretary at Warthen rose to move his resolutions grounded on those estimates. The right hon. gent., in many parts of his speech, spoke in so low a tone, that it was impossible to hear him distinctly. The estimates of the present year differed, he said, but little in their amount from those of the preceding year. He could not withhold his tribute of praise from the illustrious Commander in Chief, under whose auspices the army had been raised to its present excellent state; and which it was the object of his majesty's government to preserve, and, if possible, to augment. In preparing the estimates for the present year, they had turned their attention to what all men, conversant in military affairs, knew to be one of the great leading principles of economy, and that was to make the disproportion between the real effective army, and the number voted, as small as possible. If it did not appear in the present estimates that there was a considerable diminution of expence, it was because many augmentations had taken place in the course of the last year, particularly in the cavalry, the ordnance, and the waggon-train, a considerable diminution in the expence of which was now proposed. In the cavalry, the regiments were to be reduced from 1000 to 800. The foot-guards were to be reduced from 140 men a company to 130, and the waggon-train was to undergo a diminution of 1728 men. The difference which this would make in the estimates of the present year Would be as follows: saving, by reductions in cavalry, 255,000l.; ditto, foot-guards, 18,000l.; ditto, waggon-train, 90,000l.; total saving by reductions, 363,000l. In the whole of the estimate (including the volunteers), there would be a diminution of 934,192l.; from which, the diminution With respect to the expence of volunteers was subtracted, which amounted to 472,000l., there would remain 462,192l. as the total diminution of expences, in consequence of the reductions to be made.
§ General Tarletonrequested the right hon. gent. to state the items which made up this total sum. He could understand how the 363,000l. might be saved by the reductions in the cavalry, the foot-guards, and the waggon-train; but he could not see what was to swell this sum to 934,192l.
The Secretary at Warcontinued, and said that he hoped, in the course of his statement, to satisfy the hon. general. He should first proceed to state the total amount of our effective force at home and abroad, including the troops serving in India; and the second battalions. He should take their number at the following periods: 1st of January 1806, 240,953; 1st of May 1806, 250,994; making an increase of 10,041 men. It appeared, therefore, that while our army was increased by above 10,000 men, the expence of it would be diminished by near half a million. His majesty's government might therefore take credit for having provided an army on much cheaper terms than their predecessors. After the head of guards and garrisons, the next head which presented itself was, that of the regiments serving in India; but, as the East-India company paid the whole expence, he should not state them in the estimates. Next came the recruiting establishment, for the regiments which came under the same observations. The next head was, the recruiting staff contingencies for the supply of the army. This had been estimated last year at 50,000l. recruiting establishment, 50,000l.. contingencies, and 25,000l. for the recruiting establishment in Ireland. The same sum would be Sufficient for the present year, although a somewhat greater proportion should be allowed for the recruiting establishment in Ireland. In the next head the hon. general (Tarleton) would find some of those reductions which he had been looking for, and that was in the general staff of the army. The estimated reduction was 54,553l., but the real reduction would be considerably more, and would, as he supposed, amount to 90,000l. This difference would proceed in a great measure from the discontinuance of the Brigadier-Generals to inspect the volunteer corps, who were in future to be inspected by more subordinate officers. There would be also a reduction in the expence of the militia, on account of the number who entered from the militia into the regular army. The next estimate he had to state, With great pleasure, was respecting the volunteers 309 He hoped this statement would do away the unfounded alarm which had prevailed very generally about the supposed intention of government towards the volunteers. It would shew that as ample a provision was made for keeping up that body as was consistent with the rules of economy. The chief difference was with respect to the volunteer officers. It was intended that for the future they should not in any case have the command of field officers of the line. When he recollected how zealously and meritoriously those gentlemen had come forward in the defence of the country, he could hardly believe there was a single volunteer officer who would be dissatisfied at not being allowed the command over officers who had been regularly bred. The estimates for the volunteers were as follow: for the last year, 1,600,000l.; for the present, 1,028,000l.; total of saving, 572,000l. This sum included 132,000l. for clothing, which would fall in after the present year. The right hon. secretary then read the different items which formed the total sum at which he reckoned the saving in the expences for volunteers: among the principal items was 298,000l. to be saved by discontinuing the permanent duty; 50,000l.; by discontinuing the ten days' exercise when permanent duty was not required; and for discontinuing the matching guinea, 198,000l. He also stated other reductions that would take place from reducing the pay of the drill serjeants from 1s. 6d. a day to 2s. 6d. per week; as also in the expence of the field-officers. After a few general observations, he moved his first resolution, which was, "That 121,529 men should be voted for the regular army of the united kingdom, from the 25th of June till the 24th of December, both inclusive."
§ General Tarletoncommented upon several parts of the statement of the right. hon. secretary. It was intended, it seemed, very much to reduce the cavalry. This measure he highly disapproved of. The late government had added two troops to each regiment of cavalry, and in so doing he thought they had acted most wisely. British cavalry enjoyed a high and deserved reputation. They would be found most useful either in defence of our own country in case of invasion, or in any foreign expedition that might be determined upon; and he therefore characterised their reduction as a very extraordinary proceeding. The mode by which the right hon. secre- 310 tary had calculated the expence of the army, if the late ministers had continued, was unfair. With regard to the diminution of the waggon-train, the propriety of this was, under any circumstances, questionable; and, until the establishment of some large central depôt, he thought such a diminution highly inexpedient. Above four months had elapsed since the 21st of January, when the right hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Windham) had come down to the house, and declared, that such was the dangerous situation of the country, that four days ought not to be allowed to pass without the interposition of some effective measure, tending to increase our military strength, and to put our regular army on a better footing. What had the present ministers done after this declaration? They had lived like drones, on the collected stores of their predecessors. To the able arrangements of the late administration, the country owed every advantage that it had derived since the present administration came into power. To that administration was to be attributed the glorious victory at St. Domingo. To that administration was to be attributed the capture of the Cape of Good Hope. And here he would observe, that notwithstanding the brave and successful exertions of the officers who commanded in that expedition, notwithstanding they had effected a landing in the face of a superior force, and had beaten that force, yet the thanks of the house had not been voted to them, simply, he was convinced, because the plan on which they had acted originated with the late administration. The present Board of Admiralty had not chosen to reward sir Home Popham for his services on that occasion, because that gallant officer was not a favourite with certain persons out of the house. To the measures adopted by the late administration, was likewise to be attributed the recent capture of the Marengo and the Belle Poule. In fact, although he trusted that the country would yet derive some advantage from the exertions of his majesty's present government, still nothing was more certain than that hitherto nothing had resulted from them. He had been accused of entertaining unreasonable expectations. Those expectations were grounded on the speeches of the right hon. secretary for the war department, when he was on the opposition side of the house;—speeches which naturally induced the country to look for a new military era, as soon 311 as that right hon. gent. came into power, to expect from him another harvest of Cadmus. Four months however had elapsed since that event, and nothing had been done. It was above two mouths since the right hon. gent. made his long military speech in the house; what had ensued? Let any one candidly examine the conduct of the present ministry in military affairs, and he would find no great cause of satisfaction or confidence. In the first place, on the motion of a noble lord, a very unconstitutional grant of 18 millions and a half had been voted for, the army in that house, before the distinct appropriation which was intended to be made of that sum, had been explained. Then the army estimates were brought forward for two months, and then they were brought forward for another month. The mutiny bill too was first passed for two months, and again passed for one month. All these acts were no very striking indications of the talents and foresight of his majesty's present ministers. All that the right hon. gent. had done was to destroy the Additional Force act, and by so doing he had "thrown away a pearl richer than all his tribe." He would not touch at present upon the gigantic subject of the regular army; but would merely make a few observations on the volunteer system, The right hon. secretary at war had complained, that great misrepresentation had taken place of what his right hon. friend, the secretary for the war department, had said of his intentions with regard to the volunteers. He did not know where this misrepresentation originated. The gentlemen who reported the proceedings of the house for the newspapers, were generally better inclined to a new administration than to a new opposition, and were much more likely to give the speech of the right hon. secretary with correctness, than the speeches of the gentlemen who sat on the same bench with himself; and he believed that the sentiments and observations of the right hon. gent. had been very fairly stated to the public. He could not but notice that a considerable change had taken place in the tone of that right hon. gent. since he had attended the great civic feast at Guildhall, when the toast of "The volunteers of England" was given, proving the truth of the old saying, "In vino veritas." From that moment, the tone of the right hon. gent. had been much lowered on this subject. The effect had subsequently been increased by certain popular resolutions; and if, after all this, his former spirit should 312 revive, a message might perhaps occasion, his dismission from his majesty's service. The hon. general commented with great severity on the speech which the right hon. gent. had made in support of the bill for the repeal of the Additional Force act. That speech contained infinite wit, humour, and vivacity, and from any indifferent member would have been very proper, and very entertaining; but, coming on such an important subject from the secretary of state for the war department, he could not but consider the levity with which it abounded, as in the highest degree indecorous. With regard to the proposed abolition of the general inspecting officers, for the purpose of substituting the lords tenants of counties, he considered such a change as very injudicious; and on this subject he was sure that he might safely appeal to the opinion of all who had any connection with volunteer corps. Emulation was excited in the present mode, which would, by the proposed plan, become diminished, if not extinct. Nor was he a greater friend to the proposed abandonment of permanent duty. As an officer, he declared that he thought permanent duty most essential to the volunteer system. In the district he commanded; volunteers were put on permanent duty. under proper inspection, for 15 days; and so great was the influence of example, that although they appeared somewhat awkward when they first entered the field, before the time was expired they were fitted for military duty. What were the returns on the table? 200,000 volunteers were reported as fit for duty in England only ; of which,. 100,000 were represented as in a, sufficient state of discipline to act with troops of the line. After all the lavish promises, nothing had been performed; the right hon. gent. must leave his airy schemes and metaphysical eccentricity, for wise projects, and sound sense, or the country would be left defenceless.
§ Mr. Whitbreadobserved, that the hon. general had talked of every thing but the army estimates. He had even introduced naval subjects, and had gone out of his way to cast a particular blame on his noble friend at the head of the admiralty, and a general blame on the whole of his majesty's ministers, whom he had chosen to term drones. He would ask whether the noble lord (H. Petty), from whom the house had just heard such a display of talents, had shewn himself a drone? Was his right hon. friend near him (Mr. Fox) a drone? Was 313 the right hon. secretary of state for the war department a drone, because, duly considering the magnitude and importance of the subject, he had not proceeded so rapidly with his military plans as the impatience of the hon. general prompted him to expect? Adverting to the hon. general's supposition, that his right hon. friend's tone with regard to the volunteers had been considerably lowered, since his visit to the city; he declared, that he should think him very unworthy the situation which he held in his majesty's councils, if he allowed a toast given by a worthy alderman to bias his determination on the great military system which he had in contemplation. But did he so? was his tone altered? On the contrary, all the statements made tonight by the right hon. secretary at war, of the cessation of the June allowances, of the reduction of the expences of drill serjeants, and of the abolition of permanent duty, were so many strong proofs that the tone of his right hon. friend remained unchanged. With regard to the observations made by the hon. general on this last proposition, namely, the abolition of permanent duty, great as was his faith in the military skill of that hon. general, he could easily suppose, that his right hon. friend had consulted officers who were as competent to decide on questions of this nature. The fact was, that several volunteer corps which had never been on permanent duty, had been returned by the inspecting field officers as fit to act with the line, which evinced that permanent duty was not indispensable to the attainment of discipline. The hon. general had misunderstood one part of the right hon. secretary's statement. He had not said, that lords lieutenants were to be substituted for the present inspecting field officers of volunteers; but he had expressly said, that three major-generals were to be appointed to that service; and thus a great part of the useless machinery attached to the inspection of the volunteers, would be got rid of. He repeated his former sentiments on the rank of volunteer officers, and declared, that in his opinion, no rational man who now commanded a volunteer corps, but must be rejoiced at being relieved from the responsibility which his having a command over regular officers above the rank of captain, had hitherto imposed on him.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, he did not intend to enter generally into any discussion on the military policy of the country: he rose 314 principally to propose a few questions deserving some reply, at a time when the country was in so peculiar a situation, with the eyes of all Europe directed to it, after the extravagant pretentions of his majesty's ministers, on the scheme of military improvement. He perfectly agreed with his hon. friend, that the house was at present placed in a very peculiar situation, as well in its own view as in that of the country and of Europe, after all that had already taken place. When his majesty's present ministers had come into office, it was the general impression in the country that some fundamental change would be immediately made in the military system of the country, and he left the house to judge how far such a fundamental change was consistent with the efficient state of the army, as represented in the statements of the secretary at war. So full, however, had the house and the country been of the expectation that some such fundamental change was to be brought forward, that he and his friends had suggested, with a view to afford the right hon. gent. an opportunity of maturing the measure, the expediency of passing a mutiny bill for two months. The suggestion had been acted upon, and he begged the house now to recollect in what a situation it was placed. These were the fourth military estimates which had been voted this year, and in order to give effect to these estimates, a fourth mutiny bill was to be passed. He asked whether any government had ever exhibited such extraordinary an extraordinary instance of inefficiency? One might have expected that these fourth estimates should contain some new matter, some indication of the measures which the right hon. gent. meant to produce. Yet, stange as it was and must appear to every gentleman in the house, the estimates now proposed to be voted, differed in nothing from those that had been voted in March, except in the amount of saving from the reduction of the cavalry. He agreed with his hon. friend (general Tarleton), that it was desirable to keep the cavalry on a respectable footing; but, from the difficulty that had been felt in maintaining that body on the full establishment, he asserted that it was the intention of the late government to reduce them, according to the plan now proposed, to 800 rank and file each regiment. After all the parade, or rather farce of such frequent delays in the production of the promised measures, the present proceeding would have the effect of 315 shewing to Europe, that there existed an extreme jealousy between the parliament and the government, when such short mutiny bills were passed. The present measure was not calculated to give the parliament or the country any idea of what the principles or prominent features of the proposed measures were. And here he begged to ask the secretary at war for information respecting the subject of the volunteers, with regard to whom, considerable apprehensions had been excited by the speech of the right hon. gent., and notwithstanding the efforts, that had since been made to explain away the impression produced on the public by that speech, the statements made that night were not calculated to remove them: but on this subject he should take another opportunity of speaking more at large, and in consenting to vote the estimates in this instance, he begged not to vote them otherwise than as matter of account, and not to preclude himself from reverting to the subject on a future occasion. The economy under the head of volunteer expenditure he considered as a contemptible consideration. The object of the right hon. gent. seemed to be to breaks down that respectable body, and to get rid of them as an effective part of the military defence of the country. When the right hon. gent., in the present instance, affirmed that they had no designs upon the volunteer system, but rather wished to support it, they were only defending themselves against the indignant feelings of the public. But, as the right hon. gent. had intimated to the house, on the day when the noble lord near him (lord Howick) had brought forward his propositions for an increase of pay to the navy, from the admiral down to the seaman, his intention to advise his majesty to recommend a similar augmentation of pay to the army, some estimate of the amount of such augmentation ought to have been submitted to the house, and, if any substantive object, beyond the unnecessary parade of such an intimation was intended, the noble lord would have to provide for it by a supplemental budget. If this were to have been matter of separate consideration, the estimates now proposed might as well have been submitted to a final decision in March last. The expence of the projected training, which he looked upon as the most burthensome part of the plan, ought to have been included in the estimates. Was the house ever to be informed of the mode of proceeding of the right 316 hon. gent.? On the first day of the session, at a critical period, the consideration of an important question could not be deferred beyond the day fixed; and yet four months had now elapsed since the gentlemen had come into office, and the only thing they had done, the only symptom of life that had appeared during their ministerial existence, was to bring forward the repeal of the Additional Force acts, by a bill, containing the detestable clause relative to the re-payment of the penalties. The Irish chancellor of the exchequer, had also brought in a bill for allowing the Irish militia to volunteer their services to this country; and as that was a measure which he had himself supported, the hon, baronet had his thanks for it; though from every thing the right hon. gent. had said on the subject formerly, it did not appear to have met his approbation. If government could make up their minds on the subject, and he thought they were at present trembling between the difficulties of the country and the projects into which they had rashly precipitated themselves, he implored ministers, and particularly the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham), to inform the house what proceedings he meant to adopt, and not to bring forward their measures one after another, whereby the attention of the house might be exhausted. He asked of his majesty's ministers also to state, when they meant to bring their measures forward, and to allow sufficient time between their introduction and their final decision. He wished them to give the house time to consider a subject, which had taken them two months to make up their minds upon, after the disgrace and ignominy of coming so often with estimates to parliament. He did not think it fair for ministers to take credit for economy at the expence of the late government. The reduction in the cavalry they would have carried into effect, but the reduction of the waggon train he disclaimed. The statements were founded on a false principle of economy. He called on the right hon. gent. to state in what parliamentary shape he meant to bring forward his plan for limited service, which was to alter the whole system of the army, whether in a separate act, or in the mutiny bill; and if in the latter shape, he trusted he would bring it forward in a manly manner in the face of the bill, and not attempt to introduce it sculking into the bill at a late stage of its progress. He could not see what ministers 317 had done since they had been in office, except explain away the impressions produced by the speech of the right hon. gent.
Mr. Secretary Windhamsaid, the noble lord had railed in a very good style; his terms were strong, and well selected for his purpose. Had there been as much sound argument as there was coarse abuse, it would have been one of the most powerful harangues that ever was delivered in parliament. At the same time he could not help saying, that the points in his speech, to which it was necessary to make:any reply, were but few in number, and required but little exertion of mind to answer. It was curious to notice the manner in which the noble lord, and the hon. general beside him, happened to support each other in opposition. The noble lord concurred with the hon. general, in condemning what he called a false economy with respect to the arrangement of the cavalry; and yet he claimed credit for the contemplation of a similar arrangement on the part of the late ministry. Now it was impossible that the noble lord's argument upon this subject should cut both ways; the door must be either shut or open. As to the noble lord's allusion to the sentiments uttered by him (Mr. W.) on a former day respecting the volunteers, he had only to state, that the sentiments ascribed to him by the noble lord and others were materially different from those which he had really expressed. Any opinion the house had heard from him on the occasion referred to, still remained completely unchanged, and the misrepresentations of his opinions which had gone abroad should not disturb him, They must pass away with the common calumnies of the day. If asked what he meant to do with the volunteers, he would answer—to leave them precisely where they were, with some exceptions which could not be injurious to their efficiency, them character, or their feelings, while they must tend to the public benefit. The volunteers were not to be deprived of their adjutants, their serjeant-majors, or their drill-serjeants, who were material to their discipline. If it were proposed to impose any burthen, or offer any offence to the volunteers, then the clamour raised upon the subject might be excuseable. Instead however, of calling upon them to be more frequent in their attendance on parade, or perform an increased duty, it was proposed to remit their attendance, and call upon them to do duty much less frequent[...]y than 318 heretofore. How then could the clamour against the proposed arrangements be at all justified? With regard to the noble lord's,assertion, that the whole of the plan he had the honour of submitting to the house should be taken into consideration altogether; he protested against the justice of that assertion. For, although he had thought proper to open the plan altogether, it did not follow that the several parts of that plan might not be separately considered. In deed, it was in fact right and necessary that these parts should be carried into execution seriatim. To the question put, by. the noble lord, as to the course of proceeding meant to be followed upon the measures under consideration, he was ready to answer, that the point of enlisting for a limited term would be first submitted to the house. Of this project, one part of it was intended to be introduced in the shape of a clause in the mutiny bill, and the other would be proposed in a separate act relative to the arrangements for Chelsea Hospital. In the first part it would be obvious to the house, that the purpose was to leave as much as possible to the direction of future governments, in order that they might be at liberty to form any new engagements with the soldiery which might be deemed advisable. But the latter part respecting Chelsea, it was proposed to make a permanent regulation. The other part of his project, relative to the training of the people for the militia (with respect to which he only meant to prolong the suspension of ballot already existing) and the volunteers, would naturally follow the consideration of the project he referred to. It was his intention to bring forward the first and most material part of the system he had described before the holidays, in order that there should be a full opportunity of examining it during the recess, and at an early day after he would propose to bring forward the discussion.
§ Mr. Percevalcontended, that he had not misrepresented the right hon. gent., whose subsequent explanations had, however, materially softened the sentiments he had originally expressed. He insisted that the right hon. gent. had declared himself an enemy to the ballot, insomuch that when he found himself under the necessity of resorting to it, to enforce his training system, to avoid the odious word, he had preferred to use the word "lot," leaving out the syllable "bal." When it was recollected that the right hon. gent. had com- 319 pared the volunteers to painted cherries Which none but simple birds would take for real fruit, and that he had compared those who had encouraged the volunteers to children planting sticks and then supposing they had planted trees, it would not be deemed uncharitable in them to conclude that he was not friendly to the volunteers. The right hon. gent. had said he had used the Word "relax" for "remit," with respect to the discipline of the volunteers, but it mattered hot which he used, as either would be ruinous to the system. It would be an injury to the right hon. gent to suppose that he had been misrepresented with respect to the volunteers; because, if his object were to destroy their institution, his measures were rational; whereas, if he Was inclined to encourage and support them, his measures were irrational, they being calculated to produce their destruction.
Mr. Secretary Foxrose just to say a few words on what had fallen from the learned gent. who had just sat down. It was not necessary to review what had taken place in a former debate respecting the misrepresentations of the sentiments of his right hon. friend. There was no great grammatical difference, he admitted, between "relax" and "remit," but they might be used so as to have a far different import. It was rather extraordinary that the use of the word "relax" by his right hon. friend, should still be adverted to, especially as on the very day when he had so expressed himself, he had explained what he had intended to say. It reminded him of an old saying, "that there was sometimes no better way of uttering a falsehood than in the words of truth." In the long parliamentary experience he had had, he had never known any speech so misrepresented, and so industriously circulated, as that of his right hon. friend. The misrepresentation had been circulated over the whole country. He had had correspondence on the subject from various quarters. Amongst others be had a letter from a respectable gentleman, which would throw some light on the question. The letter adverted to Mr. secretary Windham's plan, and a supposed prevalent opinion that the volunteers were of no use whatever; which the writer denied, asserting, that only three things were wanting to make them a valuable, serviceable, and efficient force,—to take away permanent duty, the June allowances, and the inspecting field-officers. 320 Do all this, it was added, and you will improve the volunteers. Now, it happened that these were precisely the measures proposed by his right hon. friend, who had been represented as decidedly hostile to the volunteer system. The grand object of his right hon. friend had been to establish a regular military force, equal to the demands of the country; and if the volunteers could ever become such a force, then all the military bills which the house had, from time to time, passed, were in themselves unnecessary, and fraught with tyranny and oppression. But, in his opinion, a regular army, equal to the demands of the country, in the present situation of Europe, could never be formed without such means. The volunteers could only be considered as a subsidiary force; and it was certainly his wish that they should remain embodied, to assist in the protection of the country, notwithstanding the alterations that were proposed to be made in their system. No man had a higher respect for the volunteers than he had; and he should be extremely sorry were the proposed measures to have the effect of depriving the country of their services in that capacity; though he must continue to think that the proposed savings in that part of our military system were of great importance, and at the same time not calculated to do it any injury. With regard to his right hon. friend, he must say that, in his opinion, he was the best qualified for the office which he now held, of any man in the country; and he had no doubt, that not many years would elapse before the country in general entertained the same opinion. With respect to the levy-en-masse, it had been said that some estimate of the probable expence attending it should have been laid before the house. But calculations could not be accurately made respecting a measure which was perfectly new, and which it was also uncertain whether parliament would adopt. With regard to the time when the discussion of the plans of his right hon. friend should come on, he suggested that the report of the committee might be received the next day, and the mutiny bill might then be brought up and read a first time, and a second time on Friday next. On the first day after the recess, the bill might be discussed in a committee of the whole house, and particularly that clause of it which respected the limitation of service. Or, if this should be thought too early a day, he 321 trusted that Friday se'nnight would not be objected to. On the whole, he considered the new system proposed, as not so much productive of immediate advantage, as calculated to promote the future good of the army, and to place it on a better footing; and he trusted that the present administration would, at no distant period, be acknowledged to have performed a great service to the country, if they should be so fortunate as to carry it into execution.
§ Mr. Canningentered at some length into a defence of what had fallen from his hon. and learned friend, and contended that he was not chargeable with those misrepresentations ascribed to him. With regard to the panegyric which the right hon. secretary had pronounced on his friend, it was rather curious to remark, that after he had delivered a similar encomium on an hon. gent. (Mr. Francis) intimately versant in the affairs of India, that hon. gent. had left the treasury bench, and seated himself on the opposite side of the house. He thought that the military plans were introduced too tardily, and now proposed to be discussed with too much precipitation. After the long delay which had taken place since their first proposal, people were now asking whether they would take place at all or not; and to fix on Wednesday next as the day for their discussion, would be taking the house by surprise, since many members would not have returned after the holidays, on that day. He wished also that it should be understood, when the discussion took place, that the whole system proposed should be brought under review. He suggested that the first Monday after the recess was the very earliest day on which the discussion could with any propriety come on. He entertained doubts whether a call of the house might not be expedient, preparatory to a decision on one of the most important measures that ever came before parliament, and in that case it could not come on in less than a fortnight, The protraction of the discussion which had already taken place, should not now be remedied by precipitation. He thought it would also have been but fair, that some estimate should have been laid before the Louse by the right hon. secretary, of the expence likely to be incurred by the additional pay to the army, and by the levy-en-masse. Were a statement of this expence to be laid before the house, he believed that those savings, for Which ministers took so much credit to 322 themselves, would be nearly done away. It would appear that what was retained by the one hand was given away by the other. He ridiculed the idea of substituting three itinerant major-generals for inspecting the volunteers, in the room of those inspectors at present employed; and concluded with observing, that whenever the discussion on the clause in the mutiny bill should come on, he would take that opportunity of delivering his sentiments on the whole combined system.
Mr. Secretary Fox ,in explanation, said, that he would certainly take the sense of the house, whether the Mutiny bill should proceed to a committee on Friday se'nnight, if any opposition was made to that proposal. It was perfectly in the right hon. gentleman's option to debate the clause in what manner he pleased; but he must not be angry if he and his hon. friends should decline replying to any speech which he might deliver, that appeared to involve topics extraneous to that immediately before the house. Since the union with Ireland, no call of the house had taken place; and he could not see that it was called for by the present measure, in preference to others of equal importance that had been discussed in the house during the last session.
Mr. Yorkewas anxious that more time should be granted: for he was not aware of what clauses might be proposed in the Mutiny bill; or what was the ultimate decision of the right hon. gent. respecting the leading features of his plan. What was the term and limit of service that was to be proposed to men when enlisting? Were they to have the powers of claiming their discharge in time of war? Was it equally to affect the cavalry and artillery with the rest of the army? Was it to extend to the army now existing? Surely these were important and complicated questions, to the discussion of which gentlemen could not be expected to come prepared so soon as Friday se'nnight.
Mr. Secretary Windhamfully admitted the right of the right hon. gent. to put such questions, and replied, that the limitation of service was meant to apply to the corps of artillery, and the cavalry, as well as the infantry of the regular army. With regard to the period of war, and when on foreign service, he had proposed that an addition of six months to the stipulated term should take place; and it might, perhaps, be proper to give a still farther ex- 323 tension of perhaps two or three years to this period in time of war. But he wished to have it always distinctly understood, that there was a period beyond which, even in war, the service of the soldier should not be extended. With regard to the inspection of the volunteers, he had at first stated, that they should be under the superintendance of the county-lieutenants, but he had not meant to exclude the inspection of military officers. Respecting additional pay to officers of the army, he thought it would be most proper to state his idea on that subject on a future occasion. It was one in which the house must be guided, not merely by its liberality, but also with a view to the great numbers, and the consequent great increase of expence; and, therefore, it would not be right to encourage too sanguine hopes.
Mr. Yorkewished for a clearer understanding of the right hon. secretary's views. At present he understood him that his plan of limited service extended to the cavalry and artillery, and was for seven years.
§ Mr. Windhamobserved, that the term of seven years did not apply to those branches.
Mr. Yorkeobserved, that he understood the extension in time of war was to take place for two or three years.
§ Mr. Windhamsaw no reason to think the original time stated by him would be altered, but that an extension in the power of the crown, in time of war, might be made without prejudice to the general effects of the measure. The time he had stated for the artillery was twelve years.
Sir James Pulteneywas of opinion that the volunteers would lose more by the decay of their discipline, than the country could gain by any savings proposed. He conceived that permanent duty was highly necessary to the improvemet of their discipline, and that some kind, of military inspection was also indispensible. As to the ballot, he was glad to find that it was not to be absolutely abolished, but he feared that even its temporary suspension would render it more difficult to resort to it again. As to the allowance for clothing to the volunteers, 30s. was too little, and 20s. wholly inadequate.
§ Mr. Hiley Addingtonobserved, that the allowance was only 20s. from government, and that government could not have committed itself on that subject, though three years afterwards, if the situation of the country remained the same, the same allowance might be requisite. He could not 324 understand how gentlemen could talk of the house being taken by surprise upon a ten days' notice, particularly when he recollected the same gentlemen proceeding last year on a twenty-four hours' notice, to the rescinding of the resolutions of the house.
§ General Tarletonwished to know what was intended respecting. the West-India regiments?
§ Mr. H. Addingtonsaid, that 20s. was the whole of the August allowance.
§ Mr. Windhamsaid that 30s. was the allowance in June, and 20s. in August; there was therefore no reduction.
§ Mr. Matthewssaid, that unless the allowances to the volunteers were kept up, nay increased, it was impossible the establishment could be kept up. At first, subscriptions were liberal, and the general zeal came in aid of the funds necessary for the support of the corps; but it could not be expected that the subscriptions would continue, or that gentlemen would again be at the very great expence they had incurred for the volunteers with which they were connected. How then was the difference to be made good, and how could the establishment last without provision for its maintenance?
§ Mr. Spencer Stanhopeconfirmed the observations of the hon. member, and said, that unless something was done to defray the expence, the volunteers must disband of themselves, though nothing else were done.
Mr. Rosesaid, it was impossible that corps should be supported in the manner they first were raised, and provided with funds. Twenty shillings in no case could clothe a man. He knew so by having tried in the cheapest manner; and coat, waistcoat, and breeches, independent of other. articles, cost 24s. It was strange, therefore, to hear of confining the allowances, when the corps must be obliged to be disbanded for want of funds. And to this was added the discouragement held out by the plan proposed. Their feelings and their circumstances must operate to the overthrow of the system; and if the volunteers had not complained, it was because their officers had used their utmost efforts to induce them to wait, in the hope that some alterations would take place in the plan that had been opened to the house.
§ Mr. Windhamsaid, every body knew how the volunteers were raised and supported; but was it proposed that government should make up all the expence which would be required in consequence of the failure of other funds? Clear it was, from what had been said, that if the volunteers disbanded, it was by the force of circumstances, and not from any thing government had proposed.
§ Mr. Spencer Stanhopehad not meant to contend, that government should maintain the whole volunteers when their subscriptions failed; but it would be dangerous to let the whole disband themselves; and therefore an additional allowance, at least to some of them, was necessary. At the breaking out of any new war, our reliance must be on the volunteers, and therefore the spirit should be cherished and the system maintained.
§ Dr. Laurencesaid, it now clearly appeared, that those who had been so long extolling the volunteers, and charging others with undervaluing them, now admitted that the system would be at an end of itself, without large public aid: so it was not what government did, or proposed, that caused the volunteers to disband. It was expressly stated that they must disband, if they did not obtain support from the public purse.
§ Mr. Foxcould not but observe, that this was giving a new and important turn to the debate. It was no longer the plan and speech of his right hon. friend that had discouraged and disgusted the volunteers; but it would now appear, that if they are to receive only the same allowance that was granted them by the former administration, they must go right about and disband themselves. Was it then the plan of the right hon. gent. now no more, to have increased that allowance, and that under a conviction, that without such an increase the volunteers would not continue their services. Indeed, the former administration felt this difficulty; and Mr. Pitt, like every man of sense, must have foreseen what it would ultimately come to; but did the late administration come forward and propose such increase? He might therefore congratulate himself, and his right hon. friend, that, after all the hue and cry that had so industriously been raised against his measures, as tending to discourage and disband the volunteers, it now was confessed by those who reprobated them as so destructive of the volun- 326 teer system, that this system was likely to dissolve, not because any such measures had been proposed by his right hon. friend, but because an increase of allowance was not to be made them; which increase had never been proposed or held out to them at any former period.
§ Lord De Blaquiereobserved, that though the want of means might tend to reduce the volunteer establishment, he did not think it could he denied, that certain of the regulations of the new plan (some of which he approved) would operate as discouragements to the volunteers, and to the subscriptions too, which otherwise might have come to their aid.
§ Mr. Spencer Stanhoperestated his former argument, that farther allowances must be made to the volunteer corps, if the system was to be kept up. And what was to be allowed, should be so apportioned as to keep, at least, part of the volunteers together. He gave an instance of the alacrity of his own corps in the West Riding of York, which, on a false alarm, mustered, and partly marched. 15 miles within, fifteen hours, and out of 600 men only 9 were absent. He said, that permanent duty was more agreeable to the volunteers than duty at home.
§ Mr. Matthewsrepeated, that it was necessary something should be done for the support of the volunteer corps, if they were to be kept up. He complained of a certain report from an inspecting officer, respecting the corps which he commanded, and which was printed and on the table. He said that it had been altered, and things put in, which were not in the original he had seen.
§ General Tarletonstated, that it was an error that had crept in, and he had taken care to have it corrected and announced in the district.
The Secretary at Warremarked, that the report alluded to had been printed from the originals sent to the adjutant-general's office, and if there was an error, it must be an error of the press.
§ Mr. Shaw Lefevresaid a few words about the reports of inspecting officers, some of which were offensive to the feelings of the volunteer corps.
§ Mr. Ryderknew the question of farther issue for clothing the volunteers had been under the consideration of the late government; but nothing was decided. It could not be doubted, however, that Mr. Pitt, who was so convinced of the utility of the 327 volunteer establishment, would have taken measures to support it, if he had seen them necessary. At any rate, he would have done nothing to discourage them, or to injure their discipline, which the measure proposed unquestionably did. As to the expence, it would be found that the proposed train-bands would cost more than all the saving on the volunteers, without being so efficient.
§ Mr. Foxreplied, that he knew not what Mr. Pitt would have done; but he complained of the disingenuous mode of debating the business that was practised by gentlemen on the opposite side. If the plan proposed tended to destroy the volunteers, it was but fair to state that as an objection; but it was unfair to object to that as a fault of ministers which they had nothing as yet to do with, and was part of Mr. Pitt's system.
Mr. W. Smithsaid, in the place where he lived, it had long since been notorious, that if the volunteers did not get assistance, they must disband for want of funds.
§ Mr. Ellisondeclared, that the plans of the right hon. gentleman had caused the utmost disgust throughout the country and among the volunteers.
§ Mr. Windhamreplied, that if that effect had been produced, it must have been by misrepresentation.
§ Mr. Ellisonasserted, it was from what he had heard in the house, and what was circulated in the newspapers, and not by any misrepresentations.—The resolutions were then read and agreed to; and the house being resumed, the other orders of the day were disposed of.