§ Mr. Alderman Prinseprose, pursuant to notice, to move for the production of a document of the highest national importance in his estimation, with a view to put government and the house in possession of a most material fact with regard to the commerce of India. To enable his majesty's ministers to take prospective measures upon the subject of India, it appeared to him essentially necessary that they should be made acquainted with the proportion of the commerce of that territory, of which neutrals had contrived to possess themselves. That proportion truck his mind, and he believed, when known, it would equally strike that of any thinking man in the country, to be most extraordinary and unfair, when compared to that enjoyed by the subjects of this country commonly denominated private traders, nay, even by the India company themselves. Upon considering this comparison, it would be seen what return was made to Great Britain for the price she has paid for the purchase of our Indian territory; for the expence incurred in maintaining it; and for the anxiety generally existing with respect to its concerns. The fact was, the British share of Indian commerce was a very inadequate recompence for the quantity of population and wealth which Great Britain was annually in the habit of expending for the support of our dominion in India; for the constant drain upon every class of our population, to administer the various branches of civil and military government of those territories; for the original and subsequent contributions of capital for the company's trade, and for the diversion of so great a portion of our naval strength in the external protection of India against the natural enemy of our commerce and power. Foreigners enjoyed a share of this trade, which, compared with our own, the company's and private traders included, bore a proportion of not less, he was certain, than three to one. By this statement he would not be understood as wishing to excite any complaints on the part of the private traders; and still farther was it from his view to attach any blame to the India company, for the toleration of neutral commerce. The fault was not theirs; for, several of the neutral powers had possessions in India, before we ourselves obtained any footing in that quarter. By treaty some of them enjoyed the right of traffic with our territory; and some possessed territories of their own. 435 Nothing was more opposite to his wish, than the exclusion of neutral traders from India; and those which were in amity with Great Britain, could not be excluded without a breach of treaty. The attempt, indeed, at such exclusion, would be highly impolitic at any time, but particularly so at present. For, if the capital laid out in India by foreign traders, were withdrawn, our Indian manufacturers would be comparatively unemployed, because there would be no sufficient market for their produce, and of course our revenue must suffer. Foreign capitals he conceived to be now the principal support of the revenues and circulation of British India. But, whence came the capital disposed of in India by the Americans and other neutral traders, was another question; whether any, or what proportion of this capital, which consisted principally of specie, did or did not find its way from this country through circuitous channels in consequence of the limited allowance granted, to a rather comparative discountenance of our own private traders, might become a matter for consideration. How far the conduct of the India company towards those who were engaged in the private trade was fair, or politic, might also be enquired into. But, at present, his object simply was, that the document he referred to should be laid before the house, and it would be for the house itself, or for ministers, to consider whether any proceeding should hereafter be founded upon it. The document itself was of the utmost consequence, even as an article of information, to which it was essentially material that gentlemen should turn their minds. A communication which he had lately received from a gentleman unconnected with the state of Indian commerce, forcibly impressed his mind with the propriety of calling the attention of parliament and the country to this question. According to this gent's statement, which of course was not official, but who had recently arrived from India, and who was not himself a commercial man, the proportion which the neutral trade bore to ours was equally matter of astonishment and alarm. It appeared that in the harbour of Calcutta alone, there were in the year 1800–1, no less than 26 American vessels; in 1802–3, 32 ditto; in 1803–4, 27 ditto; and in the last year 29; together with 10 Portuguese, 2 Danish and 1 Swedish. This was evidently a most inordinate proportion of the India trade. But the value of this commerce might be 436 estimated from this circumstance, that in the year 1804, the sum paid for only six articles of commerce at Calcutta alone, amounted to no less than three millions. The bullion imported into Bengal by those neutrals during the 4 last years exclusive of that laid out by the India company, exceeded 19 millions of dollars, and the importations of last year alone, amounted to 5,300,000. The importance of laying such a document in an official shape, must be obvious to every commercial and political man. He was induced to bring it forward solely from public motives, and not at all with a view to urge the private traders to press their complaints at present. Their best course would be, in his judgment, to leave their case entirely to the consideration of his majesty's ministers, in the hope, which no doubt was well founded, that as soon as leisure permitted, they would attend to that important question. At the same time he felt that the document for which he proposed to move, would furnish the strongest grounds in favour of the private traders, and of course in favour of the best interests of the country. After some remarks on the facility with which the knowledge could be furnished which it was the object of his motion to obtain, as lists of the arrivals and departures of shipping were published monthly in India, and as the duties were collected ad valorem, the hon. gent. concluded with moving, "That there be laid before this house, lists of all ships and vessels navigating under Portuguese or other European colours and American, which have entered inwards and cleared outwards from the ports of Calcutta Madras, Bombay, Colombo, Surat, and Prince of Wales's Island, and the subordinate custom houses thereof, from the official year 1800–1, inclusive to the latest period received; together with their tonnage, and the value of their respective cargoes, so far as the same can be made out. Also, of all British shipping, not chartered in Europe, which have cleared out from those ports for London during the same period."
§ Mr. Francis. —I presume, sir, it is hardly necessary to second such a motion as the present. A return of the value of exports and imports of tonnage, shipping, and cargoes, is a mere custom-house document, a thing of course, perpetually moved for in this house, even without notice, and never refused or disputed. I rise now, sir, for another purpose. The facts, stated by the 437 worthy alderman, and the general conclusions, winch he appeared to draw from them, are certainly of great importance a many views; though chiefly in a commercial sense. But, as .this particular branch of the British interests in India is rather new to the house of commons, and even to myself, notwithstanding all the attention I have given to Indian questions, it is not at all unlikely that many other gentlemen may be as uncertain as I am, whether they perfectly understood him. For that reason, and also to obtain some lights from the worthy chairman of the court of directors, on the same subject, on which no man is better able than himself to give us the clearest information, I. beg leave to restate some of the propositions affirmed by the hon. alderman. If I have at all mistaken his meaning, I am sure he will have the goodness to set me right. In the first place, however, it may be of use, not only now but hereafter, to revive and establish one fundamental truth, which never yet, I believe, was disputed by any man who knew any thing of the matter; and therefore tit to be kept in view in all future discussions of the commercial interests of India, which in effect are our own. It is, sir, that in any intercourse purely commercial between India and Europe, the relative circumstances of the two parties is such, that the balance of trade merely, must be, from the nature of their respective wants, immensely in favour of the natives of India. The inference from this position is obvious and natural. If England had nothing to consider, in its connection with India, but the duties of a sovereign, or even the profit of a proprietor; if this house, for example, were king of Bengal, I say that, in that character, it would be your essential interest to open all the ports of that country to all the ships and merchants of Europe indiscriminately. I hold it to be little less than impossible for such trade to exist without a constant balance in specie, more or less, being actually paid by the European merchant, for Indian produce or Indian manufacture. The truth of this proposition is not affected by the amount of supplies now sent out for the use of Europeans, and which have nothing to do with the natural consumption of the country. I have stated this opinion, with many arguments to support it long ago to the court of directors",*
*In his minute of Dec. 1776, in the Revenue department.438 in the following terms. "There is reason "to presume, that this was the policy of the ancient government; or why did they encourage every European nation to frequent their ports by exempting their export and import trade from duties?" I do not mean to go farther into any general considerations of this kind at present. Whether we like it or not, a time will come, when they must be resumed. I shall never meddle with them, if I can avoid it. The subject is not within my reach. What I aim at now is to obtain information, and chiefly concerning some matters of fact, to which the hon. alderman has alluded. He says, "that, in 18O4, the sum paid by neutrals, for only six articles, at Calcutta alone, amounted to three millions; that the bullion imported into Bengal, by those neutrals, exclusive of that laid out by the India company, exceeded nineteen millions in dollars, and that the importations of last year alone, amount to 5,300,000l." In addition to all this importation by neutrals, we know that within a very few late years, the India company have poured into Bengal and the other presidencies, a supply of specie, not far short of 7 or 8 millions sterling. I cannot precisely state the period nor the amount, because the return is not before us. More or less, however, we are sufficiently certain of the fact. On these facts a question arises, which I am utterly unable to answer. It constitutes a problem, not only beyond the extent of any knowledge I possess, but beyond the reach of my imagination to resolve or account for. With a territorial revenue, greatly under-stated at 15 millions sterling a year, and with this immense influx of foreign specie, into Bengal particularly, how does it happen that there is no circulation of specie in Calcutta, or in any of the company's other presidencies or settlements? No, not a rupee. The only medium of circulation, in all those principal places at least, is paper, and paper of the worst quality and most injurious to the government, that is, company's notes or bonds, or securities,—the name is Immaterial,—with a heavy interest, convertible at short intervals into capital. Now, I ask the hon. chairman of the court of directors, for no man is better qualified to instruct the house on this subject, what becomes of all this specie? Is it buried? is it re-exported? or how is it employed? All we know is, that it vanishes And disappears, as fast as it is imported, 439 My next question is, and very material it will be found some day or other, where and how is all this supply of money produced in the first instance? Does it really and bonâ fide belong to those neutral powers, under whose flag so great a portion of the foreign trade of India is carried on; not only to the exclusion of British private traders, but, in a considerable degree, even of our chartered company? Is it a question to be thought of with indifference, whether our own West-India islands shall be supplied with the manufactures of our own Bengal, as in fact they are, by American carriers? Is that immense carrying trade to be taken from the industry and navigation of Great Britain, and made over to Sweden, Denmark, and America? I say, you must correct your institutions, if that be the effect of them. Again I ask, with what capital, with whose money, do these foreigners conduct this trade, to and fro, With our proper settlements and colonies? Is it their own, or is it British property? If it be the latter, as I suspect it is for the most part, why should we transfer the use of such a capital, and the profits of such trade to foreign carriers? Is it rational that Britain should bear the whole expence and burthen of these distant settlements and that the only return they can make us should be ingrossed by strangers? The fully of permitting such courses to be continued is insupportable.— Another question deserves the attention of this house. Where in fact, are the cargoes of the ships in question, which are destined for Europe, disposed of? Where do they find their principal market? Is it in poor Sweden, or in poor Denmark, or in the ruin of Holland or in the desolation of Germany? I do no believe it: no, sir, the real market is in the British islands. This conclusion at least is obvious and natural; common sense can draw no other from the facts that are known, and from all the appearances, until better information shall be received from sufficient authority.
§ Mr. Charles Grantrose, and said: I do not rise, sir, to advance either of the objections the hon. gent. (Mr. Prinsep) anticipated, to the production of the papers he has called for, nor, indeed, to object at all to his motion, because my opposit on to it might be misunderstood; but I wish to submit some general observations on the subject on which these papers a intended to bear. That subject is a very large one, namely, the extent to which the 440 private trade of individuals belonging to his country should be open between Great Britain and India. It is not a subject merely commercial, but involves a great political question; the system by which our Indian empire can be best governed and retained for Great Britain; that is to say, whether the intercourse between the two countries shall be regulated on the principles of our colonial policy, which give all our subjects a free trade between our colonies and the mother country, or by the principles which have hitherto made the East-India company the national organ through which India was to be governed, and the commerce between it and this country carried on.—This,I say sir, is a great national question, in the determination of which may be involved the preservation of our Indian empire; and, therefore, it is not at all to be decided by any results derived from such statements as the hon. gent. has called for; statements which, merely in a commercial view, would give but partial and imperfect information, insufficient even for just commercial conclusions on the subject.— This great question, sir, will not be best considered by bringing on the discussion of it immediately in this house, with the minds of gentlemen not sufficiently informed or prepared for it. I am humbly of opinion, that it is a subject for the mature enquiry and deliberation of his majesty's government; who, alter fully informing themselves of facts, and weighing the bearings of the proposed enlargements of private trade upon the safe retention of our Indian empire, will be best enabled to bring just views of this subject before parliament. The present crisis, when the nation is engaged in the most arduous struggle, is not the time for entering into this enquiry. it should be reserved for a more calm and settled period. The question of private trade was before the house some years ago, and an arrangement was then agreed to, which is still in force.—The question must again necessarily come into view when the renewal of the company's charter is agitated, and that ought to be in a few years hence, because the charter hat now but seven years to run, and the consideration of its renewal should not be delayed till the eve of its expiration.—It has been argued that the trade of India is open to all the subjects of Europe, except those of this country. This has never been a matter within our controul. The maritime nations of Europe had the privilege of trading 441 settlements in India, as early as we had, some earlier. Our acquisition of territory there did not deprive, them of their rights. Some of their settlements were without the pale of our conquests; those which were otherwise, were confirmed to them by treaties; and though the Indian continental settlements of the nations with which we are at war, are at present in our possession, it does not follow that they may not hereafter be restored. Besides, we do not regulate the trade of foreign Europe or America with our Indian territories on the principles of colonial exclusion. We could not do so, or if we did, the nations who have no settlements of their own there, might shut out our Indian goods from their ports. Whenever we are at war, all the neutral nations of Europe and America must carry on the Indian trade with more advantage than either the India company or the individuals of this country can. They save war insurance which we must pay; they otherwise navigate cheaper, and they sail at the most convenient times. The Americans undoubtedly avail themselves of this state of things, and in a way contrary to the letter and spirit of the treaty of commerce and amity made with them in 1794. By that treaty, they were allowed a direct trade between our settlements in India and their own ports in America. They now carry on a circuitous trade between India and foreign Europe, in violation of that treaty, and they even supply our own colonies with Indian commodities. The East-India company are not to blame in this. It is a subject for the consideration of government, and they no doubt pay due at tention to it.—In answer to the enquiries of the hon, gent. (Mr. Francis), I would observe, that the quantity of 19 millions of dollars, said to have been imported in the course of some years into India, probably includes the export of bullion from this country, making a considerable part of the whole; the rest must come from America and Foreign Europe. That there is little circulation of specie in our principal Indian settlements, is true. Paper constitutes the chief circulation there; but in all the interior of our vast possessions; specie only circulates; the manufacturer, the peasant, the trader can deal with nothing else. A great proportion, therefore, of the imported bullion, being coined into rupees, no doubt, circulates in the interior of our own possessions. But a part, I believe, goes to countries beyond them for the 442 purchase of the productions of those countries, and does not return to us. In answer to the question, where the cargoes brought by foreigners from India are sold? 1 apprehend in foreign Europe and America.—But to return to the main subject; I must repeat that no conclusion can be drawn from any insulated document respecting it. It is a very complex subject, and I must deprecate any discussion, or the inference of any important fact from a partial view of it. Since the arrangement made respecting the private trade in 1801, many new facts have been established which the company will have to state; amongst others, that the enlargements since given to the private trade have, with other circumstances of the time, deteriorated the company's sales of Indian goods 30 per cent. Perhaps when the subject comes to be investigated, it may be found that the question between the company and individuals, as it relates to trade, is not entirely a question about lessening the share of neutral nations in the Indian commerce, and increasing ours, but partly a question about transferring to individuals a share of the trade now carried on by the company. In a political view the question concerning. the extent to which individuals shall be allowed to embark in this trade, must be connected with another question far more important, whether India is to be governed on colonial principles, or by the more restricted system now in force? a question which I conceive involves the safety of our eastern empire.
§ Mr. Francis .—Sir, on one topic only I beg leave to explain myself. I am not at all satisfied with the explanation given by the hon. director, in respect to the specie,. which, if it existed, ought to circulate generally through the provinces. He admits that there is little circulation of specie in our principal settlements. But he affirms "that a great proportion of the imported bullion, being coined into rupees, no doubt, circulates in the interior of our own possessions." This solution of the difficulty seems to me full as extraordinary as the difficulty itself. If any great financier was to inform this house that; although there was not a guinea or a shilling to be seen in London or its neighbourhood, there was a plentiful circulation of both in Scotland, in Yorkshire, and in every part of the kingdom, at the distance of 50 or Go miles from the capital, what would you think of his veracity or his intellects? Is it physi- 443 cally possible that the blood can circulate at the extremities, and never return to or pass through the heart? But I doubt the fact, and for this plain and unanswerable reason. Admitting that lord Cornwallis could find no money at Calcutta to pay the arrears of the army, still, on the principle of the present explanation, he might have found money enough in the districts. He might have raised such a sum as 200,000l. at least; and then he would not have been reduced to the deplorable necessity of taking that amount a second time in his own life, out of the company's ships, and changing its destination, from the provision of their investment in China to the payment of the army on the frontier of Oude, or on the banks of the Jumna.
§ Mr. Brogdensupported the motion, as he thought the whole of this important question should be fully examined. He had himself, last session, proposed to bring forward a motion the same, if not in form at least in substance, with that then under consideration, but had abandoned the idea, as he was not certain of support to give effect to his proposition.
§ Mr. Atkinssupported the motion, and suggested the propriety of producing an account of the total value of exports from, and imports into the East Indies, distinguishing the share of each nation engaged in the trade.
Mr. Secretary Foxhad some doubts on the subject of this motion. The hon. director had said, that the production of this paper would not be sufficient to enable the house to form a complete judgment on the whole case, without the production of other documents. If this paper would lead only to an imperfect or premature opinion, he should certainly feel strong doubts of the propriety of granting it. Had the hon. director stated an intention to move for other papers, in order to bring the matter fully and impartially before the house, he for his part could see no reasonable ground of objection to its production; but as the case stood then, he did not think it right to grant any paper that would have the effect of leaving an imperfect impression on the minds of those who should consult it. Such it appeared was the opinion of the directors, and he could not help thinking, that that house and the country was fully willing to give to the judgment of that hon. board all the confidence to which it was entitled. But independently of their opinion, the, hon. mover himself had not stated any 444 ground of necessity for the production o this paper, or that he meant to take any proceeding upon it. He had indeed stated the contrary. There was another point connected with this motion which the hon mover had perhaps in contemplation when he brought it forward: he meant the carrying trade of America. That this subject was now under consideration elsewhere, was tolerably notorious. It was not, he believed, unknown to any one who heard him, that a representation respecting it had been made to his majesty's govt. on the part of the United States. This representation was under discussion, and every necessary information would be sought for; but not, however, from any papers to be laid on the table of this house; not from any document of the nature of that moved for by the hon. gent.; but by application to all those who were most intimately acquainted with the subject at issue. Ministers would look for knowledge to aid their judgment through the proper channels. Among others, the directors of the India company would of course be resorted to but upon a question of such delicacy arid importance, no imperfect document would be trusted to, such as this motion proposed to influence the judgment of that house.
§ Mr. Prinsepstated his only object to be to bring an important fact before the house, out of which a very serious question would naturally arise, namely, whether the subjects of this country had such a share of the profits of the commerce of India, as was sufficient to atone to them for the incumbrance to which they submitted for the maintenance of that territory; and whether, if the same system was pursued, the territory would be worth holding? The hon. chairman had stated his opinion to be, that this country could never successfully contend with foreigners in the carrying trade; if so, it followed, that neutrals, with such free access to India as they now possessed, must inevitably carry off all that trade, except the slender portion which the imperial commerce of the company enabled them to support: He happily entertained a more cheering confidence: experience had taught him, that raw materials, produce of various kinds, and coarser commodities than the assortments in which the company traded,—though more bulky and therefore more beneficial to the support of our carrying trade,—that those very articles in which foreigners now dealt almost exclusively, might be brought home by 445 British traders in their own smaller-sized and cheaper-equipped vessels, with considerable profit to the trader, and to the great advantage of the revenues of this country. A sufficient supply of the raw instead of the manufactured material, would accelerate the period which he saw approaching, when the natives of India shall be supplied with cloth made here of their own cotton, leaving to the mother country all the profits of freight, agency, commission, insurance, and manufacture All these and many other beneficial results would follow an extension of the privileges of the private trader, if no time was lost in taking up the question to which his motion paved the way. The hon. member felt himself obliged to bend to the high authority on the treasury bench, but still he would contend that the document he moved for would answer every purpose If it did not, however, it was easy for the hon. director, or any other person, to move for such further papers as might be deemed necessary. The declining to do so, and still opposing his motion, he could no avoid thinking, sheaved a disposition to blink the question.
§ Lord Henry Pettysaid, it was always tin wish of his majesty's ministers to give every species of information which could lead to any distinct object or practical conclusion. It would, however, evidently appear improper, that there should be any discussion in that house, upon points of so much delicacy, and which were now the objects of important discussions elsewhere. But as there could not, with propriety, be any discussion in that house, upon those points, he thought it would be the best way of getting rid of the motion by proceeding to the other orders of the day. He, therefore, without any disrespect to the hon. alderman, thought it his duty to move that the other orders of the day be now read.
Lord Castlereaghwas of opinion, that a commercial question of such magnitude and importance to the interests of India, and of this country, should not be brought before the house on any partial statement. If the question were to be examined by the house, it should be on much more general grounds. The principal reason, however, which made him concur with the noble lord who had moved the order of the day was, that he must most seriously deprecate any discussions in this house, which might at all influence, or prejudice, the discussion upon those points which were now the 446 subject of negociations carrying on by his majesty's ministers. There would be no use in the production of those papers no discussion was intended, as it was in the power of any individual member to get the information that those papers would convey, either from one of the directors or any person connected with the East-India company. He hoped his majesty's ministers would proceed in those important negociations with all that temper and forbearance which was due to a country whose interests had been so long connected with ours; and at the same time with that firmness and decision which were due to the rights and interests of this country, and without which our commercial relations could not subsist, either with America or any other country. He should wish this subject to be left to his majesty's ministers in the most comprehensive manner. There was one idea, however, he should venture to suggest, which if he had continued longer in office, he had intended to have carried into effect. He thought there might be an account of time Indian exports, imports, and the amount of the carrying trade, laid before parliament annually, in the same way that the account of the exports and imports of Great Britain were. Such an annual account would give to the house information of great importance with respect to India.—.Mr. Alderman Prinsep, after a few words of explanation, withdrew his motion.