HC Deb 28 April 1806 vol 6 cc929-31
Mr. Vansittart

brought up the report of the committee of supply, for granting additional pay to the navy. On the question being put, that the resolution be read a 2d time,

Lord Garlie's

rose, not to oppose the resolution, but, as the noble lord who had brought this question before the house had expressed his readiness to listen with attention to whatever should be said on the subject, to propose some considerations by way of amendment to this measure. He approved of the intention on the part of the noble lord to ameliorate the situation of those employed in the naval service; and felt highly gratified by the attention the noble lord had given to the subject; but he was disposed to go somewhat farther, and thought, that two amendments he had to propose would render still more complete the system of encouragement and amelioration proposed by the noble lord. The first amendment he would propose, was that the first lieutenants of the line of battle ships, in order to render them superior to lieutenants of inferior rates, and of their juniors in point of service, be allowed 1s. per day above the ordinary pay of lieutenants. He proposed, that those having 6 years seniority should be admitted to this distinction. The additional expence would not be above 5 or 6l. a day, which was a trifling consideration in comparison of the advantages that, in his opinion, would be derived from it. The next amendment he had to propose respected the petty officers. At present they were eight or ten in number on hoard each ship. The noble lord had stated his intention to increase their number. This however, he thought, would introduce considerable inconvenience. Instead of augmenting the number of the present class of petty officers, it would be better to introduce a new class, and to make that description of men, so useful on board a ship, and known by the appellation of quarter-gunners, rank with the petty officers, giving them 1s. per day in addition to their present pay. There was one generally to every four guns: the additional expence, even in a first rate, would be very inconsiderable. There was another description of seamen also, to whom a sufficient encouragement was not held out in money; he would therefore recommend that the Greenwich out-pension, in case of their deaths, be held out to their widows, orphans, or mothers. This would be an inducement to them to remain in the service, and would make up, in some measure, for their small pay. In the observations he had made, his lordship did not wish to be understood as indicating any inclination to oppose ministers; on the contrary he had communicated to the first lord of the admiralty all the observations he had now stated, as well as those on a former night, previously to the estimates being laid before the house. This deference, he thought, was becoming in a professional man, and due on all occasions to a first lord of the admiralty. As a proof that he was not disposed to urge any question in Opposition to ministers, or entertained any wish to embarrass them, he had, on a former occasion, declined urging the thanks of the house to sir David Baird and sir H. Popham, when he found the proposition contrary to the inclination of ministers, though he thought those meritorious officers had deserved very highly of their country. The noble lord then was proceeding to read his amendments in form, when

The Speaker

reminded the noble lord, that the subject before the house was a resolution, granting his majesty a certain sum. This grant might either be approved of, or the resolution might be thrown out, but it could admit of no restriction. If the sum Was granted, it must remain at the disposal of the crown.

Lord Howick

was of opinion, that the only mode of proceeding proper for the noble lord, if he persisted in the amendments he had adverted to, would be to propose new estimates, agreeably to the alterations he wished to introduce. He spoke in high terms of the candour of the noble lord, and could not suspect him of a wish to oppose ministers, except where he should feel it his duty to do so. He had to return thanks to the noble lord for the suggestions with which he had furnished him, and had given them all consideration before he had laid the subject before the house. In the propositions he had laid before the house, however, he had not acted without communications from the first naval authorities, from which description he certainly did not exclude the noble lord, though he had thought it eligible to omit the suggestions he had then made, and which he had now submitted to the house in the form of amendments. He then adverted in a few words to the propositions offered by the noble lord, though the forms of the house did not at present admit them as the subjects of this discussion. He denied that lieutenants of first rates had at present no advantage over lieutenants of inferior rates, as they had the chance of being appointed masters and commanders, an advantage that was not open to other lieutenants. To make a distinction of seniority and rank might be attended with inconvenience, as those who were first lieutenants to day, might be second or third next day, from any new arrangement in the appointment of the captains or the ships themselves. Such a measure would create a considerable difficulty in making such arrangements, which were sometimes highly necessary. He did not know, besides, that there was any greater degree of responsibility in the lieutenant of a first rate, than was attached to the lieutenant of any other rate, and in some instances he believed not so much; and as a proof of the superior advantages they enjoyed, he stated that the first lieutenants engaged in all the late victories had in general been created masters or commanders. He did not approve of adding to the number of petty officers; and apprehended the noble lord must have been mistaken, if he conceived it was his intention to add to them to any considerable extent. If he had intended so to increase the number of this class of officers, the estimate he had laid before the house would have been quite inadequate. He did not mean more than 15, taking in captains of the top, &c. to a first rate, and so downward in proportion; the whole at an average of ten to a ship.—The resolution was then read a 2d time, and the report agreed to.