§ Mr. Churchillasked the Secretary of State for Defence what is his estimate of the numbers of British forces in West 346W Germany who would, other than for reasons of their posting, qualify for family income supplement; and what steps he is taking to make this benefit available to them.
§ Dr. GilbertI refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for Wallasey (Mrs. Chalker) by my right hon. Friend the Minister for Social Security on 3rd May 1978—[Vol. 949, c. 140–1.] The number of Service men in receipt of family income supplement in the United Kingdom is very small. Because eligibility depends on family circumstances, it is not possible to estimate the number of Service men in West Germany who might quality for family income supplement but I have no reason to doubt the the numbers would similarly be minimal. As regards the second part of the Question, I refer the hon. Member to my reply today to his earlier Question of 21st April.
§ Mr. Churchillasked the Secretary of State for Defence, pursuant to his reply—Official Report, 17th April—if he will publish in the Official Report details of those benefits for which low-paid Service families would qualify in the United Kingdom but for which Service men and their dependants serving with British Forces Germany do not qualify, and what is the reason for this, bearing in mind that they remain fully liable for earnings related national insurance contributions.
§ Dr. Gilbert, pursuant to his reply [Official Report, 24th April 1978; Vol. 948, c. 428], gave the following information:
Low-paid families living abroad are generally not entitled to non-contributory means-tested benefits available to such families living in this country. In addition to family income supplement, these include benefits in kind, such as free school meals, free milk and vitamins for expectant mothers and children under school age, remission of certain charges for treatment under the National Health Service, and rent and rate rebates and rent allowances. When a family is accompanied by non-dependent children, that is, those over the age of 16 and not in full-time education, these children are not entitled to the supplementary benefit payments which they would receive in the United Kingdom.
347WService families are of course eligible for rent and rate rebates under the MOD scheme, which is analogous to that operated by local authorities in the United Kingdom and which applies equally at home and abroad, while medicines are provided free of charge to dependants at Service hospitals overseas. For all the other benefits mentioned above, however, Service families and their non-dependent children are in the same position abroad as are civilians.
The administration of these other benefits is the responsibility of Departments other than MOD: Education and Science for free school meals and Health and Social Security for the remainder. They are governed by legislation which in general makes presence in Great Britain a condition of entitlement, regardless of whether the family concerned is Service or civilian. This has been the case ever since the benefits were introduced and since they are non-contributory, payment of national insurance contributions has no bearing on the question of entitlement.
Unemployment benefit, on the other hand, is a contributory benefit, but here the children of Service men in Germany who have just left school are not necessarily at any disadvantage compared to those in the United Kingdom. Such children in the United Kingdom are normally no longer treated as dependants for national insurance and other benefits. Thus any claim for benefit is made in their own right and if they have just left school they are unlikely to be able to satisfy the contribution conditions for unemployment benefit. In Germany, children of Service men seeking work would, I understand, become subject to German social security arrangements and like their United Kingdom counterparts would not be able to receive unemployment benefit unless the contribution or other qualifying conditions were satisfied. They are unfortunately very unlikely to be eligible for German social assistance, the equivalent of the United Kingdom supplementary benefit, because of the different criteria applying in Germany.
The particular family situation for which the hon. Member requested details in his Question of 17th April—two children at school and two older children unemployed but with their parents overseas—is not regarded as typical since of course low-paid families are found among 348W the junior ranks who would be most unlikely to have the spread of children suggested. Depending on the precise situation, the theoretical effect could be some £20.70 a week in supplementary benefit for the two eldest children, and £2.50 a week—but probably less—in respect of school meals for the two youngest children.
As I told the hon. Member on 17th April, the whole question of eligibility of Service personnel overseas for social security and other benefits has been the subject of discussions between MOD and DHSS. These are continuing and I cannot anticipate the outcome since any attempts to extend State provisions which are normally restricted to this country generally to Service men overseas would raise complex problems. However, it has been established that families already in receipt of family income settlement may continue to receive the balance of the award after posting overseas. At the same time consideration is being given by MOD to introducing arrangements for free school meals in Service schools in Germany and Belgium, which would be subject to the same means test as is used by local education authorities here.