§ Dr. SALTERasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether there is any Treasury rule, minute, or provision, and, if so, what, prohibiting or regulating the expenditure of public moneys, either in connection with the poor persons rules or the administration of justice in the County Court, or in connection with the Poor Persons Defence Act, 1903?
§ Mr. R. McNEILLThe answer is in the negative. In so far, however, as expenditure from Votes of Parliament is concerned, the Departments responsible for administration are, like other Departments, subject to Treasury control in the normal way. Expenditure under the Poor Prisoners Defence Act, 1903, is regulated by the terms of the Act and the Home Office rules thereunder.
§ Dr. SALTERasked the Attorney-General whether, when the Committee on legal aid to the poor (Mr. Justice Finlay's Committee) was appointed, a member, and, if so, who, was appointed by, or to represent, the Treasury; and whether the object of such appointment was to assure compliance with certain Treasury rules or minutes prohibiting the expenditure of public moneys on legal aid to the poor?
§ The ATTORNEY-GENERALMr. Justice Finlay's Committee includes among its members a gentleman who holds the position of Deputy-Controller of Supply Services at the Treasury. I assume that the object of his appointment was that he might give the Committee the benefit1390W of his knowledge and experience on any question arising in which the Treasury were concerned. No Treasury rules or minutes exist prohibiting the expenditure of public moneys on legal aid to the poor, and in fact considerable sums of public moneys are so expended.
§ Dr. SALTERasked the Attorney-General whether he is aware that the Report of Mr. Justice Lawrence's Committee (Command Paper 430) found as a fact that the reason why there only came to trial one-fourth of the applications granted to poor persons to proceed under the Poor Persons Rules was mainly due to the poor persons being unable to find the necessary out-of-pocket expenses to enable them to start or proceed with their cases; whether he is aware that the said Report expressed the opinion that, unless a fund were formed for the payment of poor persons' expenses, the really poor or quite destitute persons have no chance of availing themselves of the Poor Persons' Rules; and whether the committee of solicitors referred to in the Report of Mr. Justice Lawrence's Committee (Command Paper 2358) will themselves establish the before-mentioned fund and, if so, from what sources?
§ The ATTORNEY - GENERALThe observations quoted by the hon. Member from Mr. Justice Lawrence's First Report (which was presented in 1919) have reference only to matrimonial cases. That Report was founded upon the facts as they then existed. At that time there might be taxed against the poor person a sum of money in respect of office expenses in addition to out-of-pocket expenses in the true sense. As a result of that Report the charge for office expenses was prohibited and the cost thereby reduced by some 50 per cent. It is hoped that as the result of Mr. Justice Lawrence's Second Report, presented in 1925, a further reduction in cost will be effected through the measures of decentralisation therein proposed. As I have on more than one occasion stated, I am not prepared to recommend any further grant of public money, and I do not anticipate that the solicitors' committee will themselves establish any fund. There is no evidence that in any substantial number of cases an incapacity to find the deposit required in a matrimonial case interposes a bar to proceedings by a poor person.