Mr. NUGENTasked the hon. Member for Worcestershire (Bewdley Division), as representing the National Insurance Audit Department, whether he will furnish a statement showing the salary or scale of salary of each permanent grade in the Department at its inception and on the 31st March, 1913, the 31st March, 1914, the 31st March, 1915, and the 31st March, 1916, respectively, and the grounds for variation where a permanent increase of salary, of increment of salary, or of scale of salary has been granted to each grade or to certain officials in each grade?
§ Mr. BALDWINThe information asked for in the first part of the question is given in the Estimates for Civil Services for the appropriate years. The answer to the second part of the question is that each case of variations has been dealt with on its merits, with particular reference to the performance of specially onerous duties.
Mr. NUGENTasked the hon. Member for Worcestershire (Bewdley Division), as representing the National Insurance
446W
SCALE of Travelling and Subsistence Allowances on inception of Department— Rail. Subsistence Allowance. Day Allowance. s. d. Inspectors, 1st class … Stay not exceeding 14 nights in any one place—per night, 20s. Stay exceeding 14 nights in same place—per night, 13s. 4d. 6 8 Auditors … Stay not exceeding 14 nights in any one place—per night, 15s. Stay exceeding 14 nights in same place—per night, 10s. 5 0 Present Scales. Inspectors, 1st class … For first 14 nights in one place—per night, 20s. For any nights in excess of 14 in same place—per night, 13s. 4d. 4 0 Auditors … For first 14 nights in one place—per night, 15s. For any nights in excess of 14 in same place—per night, 10s. 3 0 Audit Department, whether, in cases where subsistence allowance cannot be claimed, small travelling charges are allowed to subordinate officials who are obliged to work at places where it is difficult and sometimes impossible, having regard to the status and rates of pay of these subordinates, to obtain suitable lunch within convenient walking distance, and who, in order to save time, necessarily incur such small charges by taking public conveyances to and from the places at which such lunch can be obtained; and, if not, seeing that certain inspectors of audit on a scale of £550 to £700 per annum have been granted a liberal increase of salary by way of double and treble increments, will he explain why?
§ Mr. BALDWINThe answer to the first question is in the negative. With regard to the second part, the hon. Member is referred to the answer to the Member for North Kerry on the 26th April, 1916.
Mr. NUGENTasked the hon. Member-for Worcestershire (Bewdley Division), as-representing the National Insurance Audit Department, whether he will state the grades in respect of which the rates of travelling and subsistence allowances-were laid down by the Treasury at the inception of the Department; the rates-of travelling and subsistence allowances: so laid down for each of such grades; the present rates of travelling and subsistence allowances now in force for each of such grades; the grounds for variation where variation has occurred; and whether the concurrence of all these; affected by such variation was obtained prior to the variation being made?
§ Mr. BALDWINissued the following information:
447WIt was considered that the day subsistence allowances were unnecessarily high. Subsistence allowance at the higher rates were allowed for the first fourteen nights where the stay exceeded that time, as? compensation for the reduction in the day allowances. The inspectors and auditors actually in office were consulted and expressed their acquiescence, but the Treasury could not concede the necessity for obtaining the consent of the officers concerned.
Mr. NUGENTasked the hon. Member for Worcestershire (Bewdley Division), as representing the National Insurance Audit Department, whether, seeing that the hours of attendance of assistant auditors and audit clerks employed in June, July, and August, 1914, in giving instruction on the arrears' scheme to secretaries of societies and branches in respect of the contribution year ended 5th July, 1914, were so managed that in some instances no subsistence allowance or overtime payment could be claimed by these subordinate officials, notwithstanding that they were obliged to perform evening work, either at their official stations or away from their official stations, before returning home late at night, after at least eight hours' continuous duty, that such evening work entailed additional expenses for refreshments which were not ordinarily incurred by these officials and which the Department did not refund to them, and that increased salary by way of double and treble special increments has been granted to certain inspectors of audit on the scale £550 to £700 per annum, he will explain why the additional expenses for refreshments in the instances referred to were not refunded to the subordinate officials in question?
§ Mr. BALDWINSubsistence allowances when claimed have always- been paid, in accordance with the Departmental scales. No allowances are payable unless an officer is away from home for more than ten hours.
Mr. NUGENTasked the hon. Member for Worcestershire (Bewdley Division) whether he is aware that, although the National Insurance Audit Department is only a small department which has been in existence for less than five years, the official instructions issued to the staff of that department are now spread over as many as eight printed books, in addition to sixty or seventy neostyled circulars, 448W which are continually increasing in number; whether these books and circulars are bristling with a multiplicity of cross-references; if so, whether this multiplicity of cross-references is mainly due to the continual necessity of amending and reamending the instructions which have been incessantly issued: whether a considerable amount of the time of the staff, involving an appreciable item of public expenditure, has been occupied in endeavouring to establish some kind of intelligible coherency and co-ordination as regards the application of these instructions to the work of audit; if so, whether this confusion of instructions to the audit staff has reacted to the financial detriment of approved societies by increasing their administrative difficulties; whether lack of practical knowledge of the work of audit and other shortcomings on the part of inspectors of audit are responsible for the issue of such instructions; whether a considerable amount of public money has been expended on headquarters' conferences of inspectors of audit, at which these instructions have been devised; and whether steps will be taken to bring about efficiency and economy in this and kindred matters by the abolition of the grade of inspectors to audit?
§ Mr. BALDWINThe instructions issued to the Audit Staff of the National Insurance Audit Department are of a strictly confidential character. The instructions actually issued to the staff are necessarily complex, covering as they do developments of the administration of national insurance. It is not admitted that the trained staff of the department has difficulty in dealing with these instructions, or that approved societies (who have no access to such instructions) have been prejudiced in any way whatever. I have already deprecated strongly the ungrounded attacks made by the hon. Member on officers of this department.
Mr. NUGENTasked the hon. Member for Worcestershire (Bewdley Division), as representing the National Insurance Audit Department, whether he will furnish a statement showing the names of the auditors now serving in the department who have been promoted from the position of assistant auditor, the date of birth of each, the position of each in order of merit in the literary examination held by the Civil Service Commissioners at which he competed for entry into the department, the date of first 449W appointment of each in the department, the date of promotion of each to the position of auditor, the scale of pay of each as at date of promotion, the actual salary of each immediately preceding date of promotion, and the position of
Name. Date of Birth. Position in Examination Date of First Appointment. Date of Promotion to Auditor. Scale of pay at promotion. Actual salary immediately preceding date of promotion. £ £ Alexander Morrison 20 May, 1877 7 18 Nov., 1912 29 April, 1913 180–10–250 180 Herbert Harry Reeks 28 April, 1879 22 4 Nov., 1912 29 April, 1913 180–10–250 180 Joseph Davies 4 April, 1881 8 16 Dec, 1912 29 April, 1913 180–10–250 180 William Fred Castledine 6 Aug., 1879 29 25 Nov., 1912 29 April, 1913 180–10–250 180 Percy Gordon King 28 Nov., 1881 4 18 Nov., 1912 22 Jan., 1914 £100, after two years £120; 10–£200; 15–£350. 190 Edwin Rhys Nicholas 8 June, 1880 79 25 Nov., 1912 21 May, 1915 200 There is no departmental seniority list of assistant auditors.
Mr. NUGENTasked the hon. Member for Worcestershire (Bewdley Division), as representing the National Insurance Audit Department, whether he will furnish a statement showing the names of the acting auditors now serving in the department, the date of birth of each, the position of each in order of merit in the literary examination held by the Civil Service Commissioners at which he competed for entry into the department, the date of first appointment of each in
Name. Date of Birth. Position in Examination Date of First. Appointment. Date of Promotion to Intermediate Grade. Date of Appointment as Acting Auditor. Scale of pay at date of Appointment as Acting Auditor. Henry Arkle 29 Jan., 1883 64 25 Nov., 1912 1 Jan., 1914 10 Aug., 1915 £100, after two years £120; 10–£200; 15–£350. James Alfred Atkinson 26 Aug., 1883 107 3 Mar., 1913 1 May, 1915 11 Oct., 1915 Cyril Henry Alfred Joynt 30 Sept., 1884 36 25 Nov., 1912 1 May, 1915 20 Sept., 1915 George Thomas Williams 16 Jan., 1883 41 25 Nov., 1912 1 May, 1915 2 May, 1916 There is no departmental seniority list of assistant auditors.
Mr. NUGENTasked the hon. Member for Worcestershire (Bewdley Division) whether he is aware that the National Insurance Audit Department in cases pointed out in its Reports on the Accounts
450Weach in the departmental seniority list of assistant auditors immediately preceding date of promotion?
§ Mr. BALDWINsupplied the following particulars:
the department, the date of promotion of each to the intermediate grade, the date of promotion of each to the position of acting auditor, the scale of pay of each as at date of promotion to the position of acting auditor, and the position of each in the departmental seniority list of assistant auditors immediately preceding date of promotion to the position of acting auditor?
§ Mr. BALDWINissued the following particulars:
of Approved Societies that personal security in respect of certain officers had not been taken out as required by the rules of these societies, notwithstanding that such societies had already obtained such 451W security by subscribing to the National Health Insurance Commissioners' Approved Societies' (Officers) Guarantee Fund; if so, whether it is also a fact that, when such societies as a result of such Reports incurred unnecessary expenditure in taking out further security by way of personal bonds, the Department pointed out in subsequent Reports that duplication of security had occurred; whether he will explain how the action taken by the Department in each instance can be reconciled; whether, seeing that the Commissioners' guarantee fund could serve no other purpose than that of covering personal security in respect of officers of a society, he will explain why the National Insurance Audit Department reported in the first instance to the effect that such fund did not cover such security; whether in a number of cases many months elapsed before the Department reported in the second instance to the effect that such fund should be regarded as covering such security; if so, whether, seeing that in the meantime subordinate officers of the Department must have spent time in dealing with this question, he will state the approximate amount of public money expended in this way; and whether he proposes to take any steps with a view to bringing about economy and efficiency?
§ Mr. BALDWINThe matter is not suitable to be dealt with by means of question and answer. I do not, however, accept the suggestions made by the hon. Member as accurately representing the facts of the case.
Mr. NUGENTasked the hon. Member for Worcestershire (Bewdley Division) whether he is aware that certain subordinates in the National Insurance Audit Department were censured as a result of their truly recording the actual time spent by them on duty when such time exceeded the limit of eight hours a day laid down in a departmental order issued to the staff shortly after the death of a subordinate in the Department; if so, and having regard to the continuous strain involved in auditing accounts of the volume and character of those submitted, and to the fact that the departmental pressure on the staff as regards output of work was not relaxed after the issue of the order referred to, will he say whether the authorities of the Department were well aware that the duties performed both before and after the issue of the order, repre- 452W sented an average of from eight to twelve or fourteen hours daily work; whether their object in issuing the order and censuring subordinates for a breach of it on paper was for the purpose of protecting the Department should any further deaths occur amongst members of the staff as a result of working long hours under continual strain and high pressure; and, if so, whether he sanctions such methods being adopted by any Government Department?
§ Mr. BALDWINThere is no trace of any subordinate in the National Insurance Audit Department having been censured in the circumstances mentioned. No departmental order of the purport mentioned was issued. Directions were given soon after the Department was created that excessive hours should not be worked, and so far as I have been able to ascertain, except in rare instances and for short periods, the hours of work cited by the hon. Member were not worked. The rest of the question does not arise.
Mr. NUGENTasked the hon. Member for Worcestershire (Bewdley Division), as representing the National Insurance Audit Department, whether, seeing that nearly all second division clerks with three to four years' experience of audit work in the various divisions of the Department are now serving with the forces, it is the intention to retain such clerks in the Department after the termination of the War; if not, whether it is-the intention to recruit the Department from the intermediate examination; and, if so, if he will explain why it is considered in the interests of economy and efficiency to fill future vacancies by inexperienced young men on a higher scale of pay than that of the second division rather than retain the services of second division clerks with the experience referred to?
§ Mr. BALDWINThe question of the future method of recruitment of the office dues not require to be considered at the present time.
Mr. NUGENTasked the hon. Member for Worcestershire (Bewdley Division), as representing the National Insurance Audit Department, whether, seeing that in addition to the ordinary rates of salary commuted annual allowances are granted to the following Metropolitan officers of the Local Government Board, namely, £75 each to five assistant auditors and £40 453W each to nineteen clerks, and that the travelling and other conditions which warrant these Local Government Board allowances equally apply in the case of the National Insurance Audit Department, he will explain why similar allowances are not granted to the Metropolitan staff of the National Insurance Audit Department?
§ Mr. BALDWINIt is not considered that sufficient experience has yet been gained under normal conditions of the travelling and other expenses of the staff of the National Insurance Audit Department to render possible the consideration of granting commuted allowances.