§ Mr. C. BATHURSTasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, under the National Insurance Bill, any person, however wealthy, will be able under Clause 5 to obtain all the health insurance benefits conferred by the Act, provided that he depends partly for his livelihood upon some regular occupation, while paying as premium only seven-ninths of the amount which he would have to pay to an insurance company; if so, upon what principle is the remaining two-ninths payable by the State; and whether he has considered the effect upon insurance companies of such competition in these cases?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEThe answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, provided the person referred to joins an approved society. A wealthy man who becomes insured would probably contribute in taxation far more than the amount he receives from the State. I do not think the facilities offered to the wealthy are such as to give rise to any competition with insurance companies.
§ Mr. C. BATHURSTasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, under Clause 55 of the National Insurance Bill, any existing member of a registered friendly society will, under any circumstances, be compelled to pay in respect of sickness and invalidity insurance to the 1514W Government, and in respect of death and funeral insurance to his society a larger aggregate amount than he has now to pay for the same benefits to his society?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEI fear it is impossible to say whether this will be so in particular cases. It depends entirely on the amount of the benefits they are insured for. If it occurs it will be clear evidence that the member was inadequately insured against sickness and disablement.
§ Mr. C. BATHURSTasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether in deciding, for the purposes of his national health insurance scheme, upon a uniform rate of 4d. to be paid by all workmen weekly, whatever be the terms of their employment or the conditions under which they work, he has taken into account the freedom from sickness and invalidity enjoyed by agricultural labourers as compared with those employed in factories or living under less healthy conditions in the towns, and the consequent possibility in the result of the low paid agricultural labourers, in conjunction with their employers, contributing not merely towards their own sick benefits, but also towards those enjoyed by more highly paid employees in much more profitable industries?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEAny class of persons who enjoy better health than the average can gain the the full advantage of this under the Bill in precisely the same way as they can at present when they insure voluntarily, that is to say, by associating with one another and not with less healthy persons for the purposes of the State Insurance. I have examined the scale of contributions paid by rural friendly societies, and I find that no society offers to pay anything like the benefits under the Bill for the weekly payment exacted by the State Scheme.
MARQUESS of TULLIBARDINEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in addition to submitting the draft schemes, then in two parts, for the National Insurance Bill to the leaders of the Labour party, he also gave the leaders of other parties in this House an opportunity of seeing them; and whether it was the result of representations on the part of the Labour party that the schemes were consolidated into one Bill?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEThe draft schemes were submitted to the Leader of 1515W the Liberal party in his capacity of Prime Minister and not to the Leader of any other party in the House. The Government decided that the most, satisfactory method of dealing with the question was to combine the whole National Insurance Scheme in one Bill.
MARQUESS of TULLIBARDINEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether federations of employers and representatives of insurance companies and other interests had an opportunity of seeing the draft scheme of the National Insurance Bill, as well as the representatives of the Labour party and certain friendly societies, before the Bill was submitted to this House?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEThe draft Bill was not shown to representatives of any of the bodies named, though particular proposals in the Bill were from time to time confidentially communicated to persons with special experience whom it was thought desirable to consult.
§ Mr. MOUNTasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in calculating the weekly wages of employes for the purposes of the National Insurance Bill, it is proposed to make any allowances in cases where cottages are provided rent free or at a rent which is less than an economic rent?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEThe rent of a cottage would, I imagine, be regarded not as "wages" but as "other remuneration" for the purposes of the Second Schedule of the Bill.
Major WHITEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the estimates of cost given by him as to the National Insurance Bill were based on advice given by actuarial experts; and, if so, from what sources?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEThe answer is in the affirmative. Three of the best actuaries have been for a long time employed in giving advice on the Estimates to the Government. I have already promised to lay the information before the House.
§ Mr. BOOTHasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can give the House an estimate of the expenses of management of the National Insurance Scheme, and under what Government Department it is proposed to administer the Bill?
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§ Mr. GEORGE TERRELLasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can state the amount of the estimated cost of administration of national insurance under the Bill now before the House for each of the first three years of its coming into operation, separating, if possible, the expenses connected with sickness from the expenses in regard to unemployment?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEI will answer this and the question in the name of the hon. Member for the Chippenham Division, together. I regret that in consequence of a misprint in the notice of the latter question, which occurred both in the Votes and in the Order Paper, I gave a misleading answer yesterday. It would not be possible to deal satisfactorily with the various financial estimates involved in the Bill in anticipation of the detailed reports which will be laid before the House shortly. The provisions for the administration of the scheme will be found in the Bill which has been circulated to Members, and especially in Clauses 41 and 65.
§ Mr. ROBERT HARCOURTasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to criticisms of county councillors upon the composite character of the local health committees proposed to be established under the National Insurance Bill, on the ground that there are already too many overlapping authorities of this kind, and suggesting that the work could be well performed by the existing public health committees; whether he has also had regard to similar views expressed in the Minority Report of the Poor Law Commission; and whether he will give favourable consideration to these arguments?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEThe functions and the funds of the local health committees are such that it is important that the persons insured under the National Insurance Bill should be represented upon them.