HL Deb 03 May 1989 vol 507 cc252-4WA
Lord Rodney

asked Her Majesty's Government:

What is the Government's current attitude to the pay and conditions of service of the Fire Service.

The Earl of Arran

The Government are fully committed to an effective fire service and to the nationally recommended standards of fire cover and in this context have been pursuing a policy of better value for money in the fire service for a number of years. The Audit Commission examined this in 1986 and made a number of suggestions for consideration. Some of these are being examined by a Home Office chaired working party under the Central Fire Brigades Advisory Council machinery. Others relate to pay and conditions of service. On these, officials wrote on behalf of my right honourable friend the Home Secretary in May last year to the National Joint Council for Local Authorities' Fire Brigades asking what steps they had taken with regard to the Audit Commission's findings and asking that the council should set up a working party with participation by officials from the Home Departments. This was not accepted. My noble friend the Minster of State at the Home Office then met each of the member bodies of the council individually and discussed with them how matters should be taken forward. When he had completed this round of consultation, my noble friend wrote to the various organisations summarising the Government's position and asking that the council as a body should reconsider their view on my right honourable friend's proposal that a working party should be set up. We await a reply.

Among the issues which we wish to see examined by the proposed working party are: the ban on whole-time firefighters serving in a retained capacity in their spare time; manning practices on public holidays; the Fire Brigade Union's ban on rostered overtime; and whether the present pay formula remains the best way of determining fire service pay for the future.

The Government are resolved to have these properly considered and our hope is that we can carry out this important exercise with all the member bodies of the National Joint Council, which we hope will participate fully with a positive attitude and an open mind. We would like the proposed working party to make recommendations for the National Joint Council to address. If such co-operation were not forthcoming, the Government would have to come to their own view on the merits of the issues and, while we cannot speculate on what steps we would feel compelled to take, we cannot exclude the possibility of legislation if this appears necessary and justified.