HC Deb 04 May 1972 vol 836 cc206-14W
Mr. Mason

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what increase in the costs of the United Kingdom Concorde project is due to inflation, giving the annual perecentage increases since its inception up to the present time.

Mr. Michael Heseltine

Of the £480 million which is the United Kingdom share of the latest development cost approximately £180 million is due to inflation. The annual percentage in-creases due to inflation have been as follows:

Per cent.
1963 6.5
1964 6.5
1965 7.3
1966 3.5
1967 6.8
1968 8.1
1969 8.7
1970 14.7
1971 9.1

Mr. Mason

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry whether he will consider producing a White Paper on the Concorde project, detailing its history of development, escalating costs and a breakdown of research, development and production costs of the British Aircraft Corporation operations and Government finance.

Mr. Michael Heseltine

No. The House is kept fully informed about progress of the Concorde project and of the estimate of costs.

Mr. Mason

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what determined his decision to place an order for six more Concorde aircraft.

Mr. Michael Heseltine

Our decision was taken in order to ensure that sufficient aircraft are available to meet the initial demands of airlines when Concorde enters service and to maintain an efficient flow of manufacturing work.

Mr. Mason

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what joint agreement has been reached with the French Government and the joint producers of the Concorde aircraft to have an international sales drive for Concorde.

Mr. Michael Heseltine

Both the British and French Governments are giving the manufacturers every support in their sales efforts. For example, overseas sales flights by both prototype aircraft have been and are being made with the full support of both Governments.

Mr. Mason

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what is the most recent estimated total cost of the Concorde project; and if he will specify the French and British research, development and production costs.

Mr. Michael Heseltine

The latest estimate of total development costs in the two countries is £970 million at January, 1972, prices. This is an increase over the previous estimate of £85 million of which £45 million is due to pay and price increases in Britain and France. Studies are, however, being made of improvements which may well lead to further development work, the cost of which would be additional to this estimate of £970 million. Expenditure in Britain and France up to 31st March, 1972 was £630 million. Expenditure on production in the United Kingdom to date is £26 million and a similar sum has been incurred in France.

The estimate of £970 million is divided as follows as between actual past and forecast future expenditure:

£million
British Government French Government Both Government
Actual costs from 29thNovember, 1962, to31st March, 1972, atthe rates prevailingwhen the costs were incurred 330 300 63
Estimated costs from 31st March, 1972, to completion of the programme at January, 1972 prices 150 190 34
Totals 480 490 97

The difference between the latest estimate of £970 million at January. 1972, prices and the former estimate of £885 million at December, 1970, prices is as follows:

£million
Former estimate at December, 1970,
prices 885
Pay and price increases 45
Additional development tasks 25
Revision of estimates 15
Revised estimate at January, 1972, prices 970

Mr. Mason

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what is the most recent estimated cost of one Concorde and spares to option holders of the Concorde aircraft.

Mr. Michael Heseltine

The basis of a pricing formula for the first three option holding airlines was announced in the House on 22nd December, 1971. The price for later option holders is now being considered. The actual price for individual airlines will depend upon a number of factors such as their requirements for optional equipment, payment terms, and their policy in acquiring stocks of spares. —[Vol. 828, c. 393.]

Mr. Mason

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what are the perceived noise decibel levels at landing and take-off of the Concorde compared with the Boeing 747, the Lockheed 1011 and the Douglas DC10.

Mr. Michael Heseltine

I set out below the manufacturers' estimates of Concorde's noise, measured in EPNDb according to the criteria laid down in the ICAO and FAA noise certification standards, in relation to those of a range of other aircraft which will be flying at the time.

Take-off (flyover) Approach
Concorde 114 115
Boeing 707–320C 114 120
Boeing 747–100 111 114
Boeing 747–200 108 109
VC10 110 115
Lockheed 1011 98 103
DC10 99 106
Trident III 104 110

Mr. Mason

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (1) what recent consultations have taken place with overseas Governments regarding supersonic flying over their countries; with what results; and if he will specify which countries have so far declared it permissible and which have not;

(2) whether supersonic corridors have been agreed between Great Britain and other nations in readiness for the Concorde aircraft; which have so far been agreed; and which are still subject to negotiations.

Mr. Michael Heseltine

The vast proportion of Concorde's route mileage on entry into service will be over the sea which is international air space. Control of movements in national airspace is a matter in the first instance for the Government of the country concerned. There is therefore no need for Her Majesty's Government to initiate any official bilateral consultations on supersonic flying until a specific proposal originates from an airline intending to operate Con- corde. We have of course kept ourselves continually informed of current international thinking on this matter.

In respect of specific positions adopted by other countries I have nothing to add to the reply given to the hon. Member for Putney (Mr. Hugh Jenkins) on 17th April.

Mr. Mason

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry whether he will move for the establishment of a Select Committee to vet the cost estimates of the Concorde project; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Michael Heseltine

This has never been considered necessary by any Government. I share that view.

Mr. Mason

asked the Secretary of state for Trade and Industry to what extent payload, noise and pollution problems of the Concorde aircraft have been overcome in readiness for sales to the world's airlines.

Mr. Michael Heseltine

The manufacturers are confident that they can offer a payload which will be acceptable to the airlines and that noise on entry into service will be comparable with that of subsonic jets such as the Boeing 707 and DC8. The engines of the production Concorde will be virtually smokeless. All our evidence indicates that Concorde's operations will not have any significant effect on the upper atmosphere.

Mr. Mason

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what the estimated overall operating costs in seat miles on the North Atlantic service of Concorde are to be compared with the Boeing 747.

Mr. Michael Heseltine

It can be misleading to compare the seat miles cost of Concorde, aimed principally at a market where time is important, with a Boeing 747 catering principally for mass transportation. The ratio between the seat mile operating costs of Concorde and of the Boeing 747 will vary according to aircraft price, passenger layout, utilisation, service life and other variables. The manufacturers estimate that the seat mile cost of Concorde will be about 70–75 per cent. higher than that of the Boeing 747. Much the most important comparison is in the level of fares necessary to operate Concorde successfully and the manufacturers are confident that Concorde can be profitably operated at fares about the same as the first-class Boeing 747 fare.

Mr. Mason

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what financial controls have been exercised over the British Aircraft Corporation regarding the increased costs of the Concorde aircraft; and what other examination he proposes in connection with parliamentary accountability.

Mr. Michael Heseltine

A full explanation of the system of financial control on the Concorde project has been given to the Committee of Public Accounts. I am satisfied that effective arrangements exist for ensuring proper accountability for Concorde expenditure.

Mr. Mason

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what recent consultations he has had with the British Overseas Airways Corporation regarding its possible purchase of Concorde; and what formula has been agreed regarding price and forms of assistance in anticipation of operating losses.

Mr. Michael Heseltine

The British Airways Board has kept me in touch with its thinking about the equipment requirements of the board's airlines. I will consider all representations it has made to me. The price is a matter between BOAC and BAC. No agreement has yet been concluded.

Mr. Mason

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will list the estimated consequences of the cancellation of the United Kingdom Concorde project, especially regarding compensation and unemployment.

Mr. Michael Heseltine

I have no thought of cancelling the Concorde.

Mr. Mason

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what steps his Department is taking to ensure that Concorde is successfully sold to the British Overseas Airways Corporation, Air France and other option holders of the Concorde aircraft.

Mr. Michael Heseltine

Detailed discussions are taking place with the two national airlines about orders for the aircraft. I confidently expect other option holders to follow this initiative.

Mr. Mason

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and industry what consultation has taken place between his Department and other nations regarding landing rights for Concorde, and with what results

Mr. Michael Heseltine

Rights for technical landing stops under the multilateral International Air Services Transit Agreement and the Chicago Convention apply to civil aircraft in conformity with the convention without limitation as to type, and bilateral rights for traffic and technical landing stops do not usually specify particular types of civil aircraft.

For flights in special circumstances outside these rights, such as the forthcoming demonstration flights by Concorde, specific approaches are made to authorities abroad for clearance as necessary. I am grateful to the following Governments for such agreements:

Singapore. Federal Repu of Germany.
Philippines.
Australia. Greece.
Spain. Lebanon.
Brazil. Saudi Arabia.
Argentine Bahrein.
Senegal. Iran.
Portugal India.
Thailand

Mr. Mason

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry whether consultations have taken place with the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics regarding landing rights in the United Kingdom for Russian supersonic commercial aircraft; whether agreement for the United Kingdom Concorde to use a supersonic corridor over Northern Russia and have landing rights in Soviet territory hinges on this type of agreement; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Michael Heseltine

Rights for Soviet civil air services in the United Kingdom and for British civil air services in the USSR are contained in the bilateral Air Services Agreement (Cmnd. 798), the amending Exchanges of Notes (Cmnd. 1077, Cmnd. 1262 and Cmnd. 4354) and the Supplementary Protocol (Cmnd. 4388), all of which are published documents. The agreement provides for several features of the services, including types of aircraft used, to be agreed between the airlines subject to reference to the aeronautical authorities of the two Governments. Use of the Soviet supersonic aircraft or Concorde on these services or on new routes has not so far been raised by either party or its airlines.

Mr. Biffen

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what discussions he has had with the British Overseas Airways Corporation and the relevant authorities in the United States of America concerning landing rights of Concorde in North America; and what financial guarantees have been given to the British Overseas Airways Corporation in the event of Concorde not being allowed to operate from airports on the eastern coast of the United States of America.

Mr. Michael Heseltine

Air traffic rights available to BOAC in the United States under the United States/United Kingdom Air Services Agreement do not specify types of aircraft. No financial guarantees have been given nor are any contemplated.

Mr. Biffen

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he is satisfied that Section 515 of the Canadian Air Regulations will permit supersonic flight by the Concorde over Canadian territory; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Michael Heseltine

The application of this regulation to any supersonic route over Canada which may be proposed would be a matter for the Canadian authorities.

Mr. Biffen

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what numbers are currently employed on the development of a second generation Concorde; and what public funds are being devoted to such work.

Mr. Michael Heseltine

Our priority is to make a success of the existing aircraft. No work is proceeding on the development of a Concorde successor.

Mr. Biffen

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what assessment he has now made of the annual operating loss likely to be incurred by the British Overseas Airways Corporation as a result of operating a fleet of Concorde aircraft; and how it is proposed that such losses will be financed.

Mr. Michael Heseltine

As I said in answer to the right hon. Member for Barnsley (Mr. Mason), I do not accept the implication that Concorde operations will be other than profitable. The second part of the Question therefore does not arise.