Westminster Hall Sitting of 23 January 2003

Preamble
[SIR ALAN HASELHURST in the Chair]

Youth Policy
2.30 pm
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. This being this first session of questions in Westminster Hall, I have a short statement about the procedure that I intend to follow. As happens in the House, I will call each hon. Member with a question in turn; as in the House the hon. Member should rise and respond "Question No. 1," and so on. I will then call a Minister to answer.
This session is different from questions in the House, in that we have four Ministers here, from four different Departments. The House has decided that questions in Westminster Hall should relate to an overall "cross-cutting" theme—on this occasion, youth policy.
After the Minister's initial answer, I will call the hon. Member in whose name the question was tabled to ask a supplementary question. It may be that one of the other Ministers present will want to come in to answer that supplementary question, either instead of, or in addition to, the Minister giving the original answer.
I will then call other hon. Members to ask supplementary questions, including, on some questions, Opposition Front Benchers. I may also call an hon. Member to ask a second supplementary question if I deem it appropriate.
Hon. Members should remember, however, that this is a question and answer session and not a series of mini-debates. I expect Ministers' answers and supplementary questions to be short and to the point. I hope to achieve a free-flowing exchange to allow us to make good progress through the Order Paper in the hour allotted to questions.
This is a novel procedure and I seek the co-operation of all hon. Members to help to make it a useful addition to our procedures for holding the Government to account. It is, inevitably, experimental at this stage. I do not intend any precedents to be set by my rulings today—except brevity—and I will be happy to receive, privately, any suggestions from colleagues for modifications.
I remind hon. Members too that sittings in Westminster Hall are governed by the same conventions concerning behaviour and mode of address as in the Chamber.
2.34 pm
Sitting suspended for a Division in the House.
2.48 pm
On resuming
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I had better mention that all the microphones are live, so it would be helpful if
144WH
there were no background conversation to interrupt the main proceedings. I re-emphasise my point about brevity in case anyone has forgotten it in the past 18 minutes. Although it will become obvious later, for the convenience of hon. Members I shall tell them now that Question 5 will be answered with Question 3 and Question 10 will be answered with Question 9.

Oral Answers to Questions
Oral Answers to Questions

  Re-offending
  1.Simon Hughes: What assessment the Government have made of the impact on reducing re-offending by young people of participation in schemes promoted or supported by the Youth Justice Board. [91805]
  The Minister for Policing, Crime Reduction and Community Safety (Mr. John Denham): The reconviction rates of offenders dealt with in July 2000, just after the national introduction of the main reform measures, were reduced by 14 per cent, compared with 1997.
  A range of YJB funded programmes are also being evaluated. The results include a 25 per cent, reduction in re-offending following education, training and employment programmes, a drop of 29.5 percentage points in children offending after their parents had been on parenting programmes, and on the nine-month intensive supervision and surveillance programme pilot a drop from 160 to 47 offences.
  Simon Hughes: It is a great pleasure to ask the first supplementary question. We all accept the success of the Youth Justice Board. Its programmes have been widely welcomed. Will the Minister guarantee that the funding will not only continue, but be extended for the splash programme, the youth inclusion programme, the intensive supervision and surveillance programme and, above all, the youth service, which has been badly cut back over the past decade? If funding is there, we know how to give youngsters positive alternatives to antisocial behaviour and boredom.
  Mr. Denham: The YJB programme has been successful, although I do not have the details regarding that. We intend to repeat last summer's very successful programme of youth activities, and to do that in a way that frees money and brings it together into a single pot for local authorities and agencies to use.
  We have already guaranteed the future of the youth inclusion programmes, which have been very successful in helping young people in high crime areas. I hope that we will shortly be able to give more details about the extension of the intensive supervision and surveillance programmes, which are effective in keeping young people out of custody and out of trouble.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Education and Skills will talk about the youth service.
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education and Skills (Mr. Ivan Lewis): One of the problems in taking an integrated approach to the needs of young people has been the underfunding and undervaluation of the youth service over many years. A new vision for youth services and an understanding of how those services and others—such as Connexions—connect together are fundamental to achieving many of our objectives in respect of education, performance, antisocial behaviour, street crime and so forth.
  Julie Morgan: Because of the devolution to Wales of many matters that affect young people who offend, it is important that there are close links between the different Government Departments and between the Government and the Assembly in Wales. What progress is being made on an all-Wales youth offending strategy involving the YJB, and what is the value of such a strategy?
  Mr. Denham: I will have to get back to my hon. Friend about our position on an all-Wales strategy, but it is important that people can see that the YJB has a strategy that ties in well with the other agencies that work with young people to reduce crime.
  We liaise well with the Assembly: for example, the equivalent of an English regional crime reduction director is based in, and works with, the Assembly and helps to link the work of the local community safety partnerships with the YJB and other organisations. There is value in having coherent policies. I will write to my hon. Friend about the matter.
  Mr. James Paice: Conservative Members welcome this opportunity to cross-question Ministers—in this case, on youth policy.
  Against a background of a huge increase in the number of persistent young offenders, the work of the YJB is essential; its great value has been mentioned. The Minister referred to intensive supervision and surveillance programmes, which are a step in the right direction. I understand that Oxford university is assessing those programmes and analysing their benefit. There is doubt about whether 25 hours over three months is adequate contact time, but we need to see the results. When does the Minister expect to hear from Oxford university? Will he be publishing that report?
  Mr. Denham: The intensive supervision and surveillance programme is aimed at the 3 per cent, of young people who are estimated to commit about 25 per cent, of all crime. It is not the case that we have necessarily had a rise in the number of persistent young offenders. According to the figures that we have, the reconviction rate has fallen. The Oxford university study must be long term if its full effects are to be seen. It will be available in 2004. The interim assessment has shown a drop in the number of offences from 160 to 47 among young people involved in the programme. This is not just a matter of contact time, which is rather more extensive than the hon. Gentleman suggests. Offenders are also tagged and subject to curfew, so there is a
  146WH
  mixture of intensive engagement and some limits on freedom, and the expense and problems that arise from young offenders institutions are avoided.
  Mr. Paice: May I turn the Minister's attention to the issue of funding, which was touched on by the Liberal Democrat spokesman? I visited a youth improvement programme this morning. One of the facts that came through loud and clear was that although those involved welcomed the decision to extend the programme for another three years—we, too, are pleased with that decision—there is such a disparate range of sources of funds and requirements that the bureaucracy being imposed on those involved, who are basically youth workers, is insufferable. One such worker told me that they had turned down £150,000 because the bureaucratic burden that went along with the job in question did not make it worth while.
  It is sensible to have a range of programmes. However, will the Minister consider whether he can bring together the various bodies—some charitable, some publicly funded—that are funding the programmes, whether they provide core funds or extra money? Could we put all the money together, so that those involved with programmes could concentrate on bidding in the first place and on dealing with youths, rather than constantly filling in forms and meeting different requirements for different forms of assessment?
  Mr. Denham: That is a good point. Last summer, we increased the number of young people involved in summer activities from 25,000 to more than 90,000, but that was done at a great pace and involved some 12 different streams of money. Much work has been done, led by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, to bring that money together into a single pot—or as close as a single pot as we can get—so that it is much easier to administer next year. Much the same principles should apply to the youth inclusion programmes, for which there may be funding from the lottery, local authorities or the neighbourhood renewal fund. Bringing the sums together is a major exercise, but I accept the hon. Gentleman's point and we are working hard on it.
  Mr. Hilton Dawson: Given the lamentable re-offending rates of those leaving young offenders institutions, would not the best idea to reduce youth offending be to ensure that the vast majority of young offenders did not go into custody? Given the recent decision of the High Court in relation to the application of the Children Act 1989 to young offenders institutions, what work is the Youth Justice Board doing to ensure that all young people who are locked up are supported by the provisions of the 1989 Act, and treated as children rather than criminals?
  Mr. Denham: On the first point, the vast majority of young offenders do not go into custody. For every 100 young offenders, no more than four will go into custody. One reason for expanding the intensive supervision and surveillance programme is that it is targeted at a group of young people who might otherwise go into custody. If current success rates are repeated, the programme will have the benefit of protecting the public and being a satisfactory way of dealing with young people who have been carrying out serious crimes. However, there always

  147WH
  will be some young people from whom the community needs to be protected. Every young offenders institution has a child protection co-ordinator and has established a child protection committee, and is in contact with the local area child protection committee structure, so there is a system for integrating what is happening in young offenders institutions with wider child protection arrangements.
  Jonathan Shaw: The hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Simon Hughes) referred to the good work of the Youth Justice Board and mentioned some of its successes, one of which is its work with parents of young offenders. Is the Department for Education and Skills thinking about that work and considering working with the parents of young people who are truanting? Those young people often get involved in crime. Is there to be any debate on the lessons learned from the work of the Youth Justice Board?
  Mr. Denham: Yes. We are looking at that while we draw up a new Green Paper on young people at risk. One of the things that we discovered was that parents who are required to attend parenting classes often react, after a time, by asking why the support was not offered before their children were in serious trouble. We are examining ways in which we can extend parenting support at an earlier phase of a child's life and give support to parents earlier. Money for families is available in the spending review from the parenting fund, and the Secretary of State for Education and Skills has talked about facilities at school to develop parenting contracts as a way of agreeing with parents how they can support the work done with their children. There will be more to come in the area that my hon. Friend talked about.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. It is not habitually the case that Ministers of the Crown are at a disadvantage, but I am advised that their microphones are dead. If they could use their own amplification, it would help those who are reporting our proceedings.

  Drug Education
  2. Jim Dobbin: What steps the Government are taking to improve drug education among young people. [91806]
  The Minister of State, Department of Health (Jacqui Smith): To protect young people from problematic drug use we must make sure that all young people, particularly the most vulnerable, have access to credible drug education and information.
  Almost all schools now have a drug education policy in place and Ofsted reports that the quality of drug education in the classroom is improving year on year. Investment in training programmes for teachers and Connexions advisers, and the national healthy school standard are all providing an important boost to drug education. To build on improvements already made, the Government are implementing a five-year evaluation and research programme called Blueprint.
  Jim Dobbin: Is the Minister aware of the excellent work that takes place in the voluntary sector on drug
  148WH
  awareness in schools? An example of an organisation that does such work is the North-West Life Education Trust, which is funded by Rotary International in Great Britain and Ireland. It has put together an interesting programme of visits that take place throughout my constituency and Rochdale's local education authority area.
  Jacqui Smith: Yes, my hon. Friend makes an important point. We recognise that the voluntary sector's contribution can be important in developing drug education. When young people are asked what they want from drug education, they often express an interest in using external visitors, for example. We welcome that contribution. We are aware of the work of Life Education Centres and its chief executive is represented on the advisory group for the Blueprint programme that I mentioned earlier. It is up to local schools to determine the extent to which their drug education policies use outside organisations and voluntary organisations. I certainly believe, and research suggests, that effective drug education is best provided by a partnership involving teachers, parents, voluntary organisations and pupils themselves in order to determine the programmes.
  Mr. John Redwood: Are the Government giving consideration to, or undertaking studies on, cannabis liberalisation and the liberalisation of other so-called "soft" drugs?
  Jacqui Smith: As I think the right hon. Gentleman is aware, research is being conducted on the health effects of using cannabis with regard to certain illnesses. The Government's position is now clear. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has proposed the reclassification of cannabis. The message for young people remains clear: cannabis is a harmful drug and taking cannabis is illegal—our drug education programmes are based on that message. We must also recognise that programmes should be credible and honest about relative health problems associated with different drugs. It is important that we continue to focus our attention and targets on ensuring that we reduce the use of class A drugs, which are clearly the most harmful drugs.
  Mr. Lindsay Hoyle: I wonder what role sports stars and sporting clubs could play in the fight for drug education. Could that role be further extended through schools in the future?
  The Minister for Sport (Mr. Richard Caborn): I think that my hon. Friend knows about the World Anti-Doping Agency. UK Sport signed off a memorandum of understanding supporting the agency in Moscow only a few weeks ago. UK Sport now has information available on its website or by other means. It is doing everything that it can to show the harmful effects of drugs and doping. We are trying to eradicate the use of drugs in competition, because it is cheating. We want to rid sport of cheating.
  Mr. David Rendel: The Minister will be aware that one drug kills more people than any other. That drug is tobacco, which kills roughly 300 people a

  149WH
  day. Is the Minister aware that one in four young people can become addicted to tobacco after sampling just two or three cigarettes? Would it not improve education in our schools if the message to young people were not so much "Do not smoke" as "Do not even start smoking because you may become addicted very quickly"?
  Jacqui Smith: The hon. Gentleman raises an important point that is being reflected in guidance and practice. We need to take a broad approach that covers illegal drugs as well as tobacco and alcohol. The Government are concerned about young people taking up smoking because of the problems that that can lead to in later life. That is why many of our education programmes deal with the harm that tobacco can do; it is also why we are taking action on banning tobacco advertising.

  Youth Services
  Phil Hope: What action is being taken to improve the statutory and voluntary youth service. [91807]
  Alan Simpson: What assessment the Government have made of the need for a statutory policy for youth services. [91809]
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education and Skills (Mr. Ivan Lewis): On 18 December 2002, I published the Government's reform and investment plan for youth services and youth work over the next five years in a document entitled "Transforming Youth Work—Resourcing Excellent Youth Services". The document sets out, for the first time, the Government's vision for high quality, well managed and properly resourced services. It is an excellent document and I will circulate it to all hon. Members in the next fortnight.
  Additional investment over the next three years means that there is now no excuse for local authorities to cut youth service budgets. Indeed, we expect to see significant increases in spending year on year.
  The document also sets out, for the first time, a legislative basis to give the Secretary of State the power to intervene when a local authority is clearly failing to provide an acceptable level of service. He will not hesitate to use that power in circumstances where young people are being short-changed.
  Phil Hope: May I record my support for this unique parliamentary occasion? It demonstrates that the whole House is committed to young people.
  We would all agree that the youth service has been neglected for decades, under successive Governments. I very much welcome the document that was published in December. It was also welcomed by youth services and one leading practitioner described it as a "landmark document" and possibly the most important for 40 years. That is a tribute to the Government's proposals for the future. The document contains an excellent structure for better delivery of youth services, but when will we see a step-by-step implementation plan? Is the
  150WH
  Minister confident that local authorities that have failed to spend on youth services in the past will deliver the kind of expenditure called for in the document?
  Mr. Lewis: I would like to begin by paying tribute to my hon. Friend. Over the years, even when it has not been fashionable, he has been among the most passionate advocates of youth services.
  For the first time, this framework allows us to tell local authorities what we expect of them. If local authorities are not delivering the high quality services that young people deserve, we will have the power to intervene. We will not hesitate to do that if we feel that local authorities are not providing an adequate or sufficient youth service. We believe that the resources that we are investing give local authorities no excuse.
  My hon. Friend asked about implementation. When we produce strategies, the main issue is to get the delivery right. People in communities up and down the country—especially young people—must start to see a tangible improvement in the quality of services to which they have access. Every local authority will be required to produce a pledge to young people, setting out what young people in their area can expect. That pledge should involve young people in the development of services. There should be an approach to community cohesion that brings together young people from different cultures and backgrounds, so that we can build positive relationships.
  We also want to see far more intergenerational work. One of the sadnesses in many communities is the breakdown in relationships between old and young. We are going to come forward with proposals on those issues—a new curriculum for youth work, the contribution of Connexions and, most important, the commitment to engaging with the voluntary and community sectors.
  We must make it clear that local authorities cannot do it on their own. They have to make best use of innovative and imaginative voluntary organisations, which are particularly good at getting to some of the hard-to-reach people who find it difficult to access statutory services. At a national level, our priority for next year is to develop a substantive work force development strategy. We know that we have major recruitment and retention problems, and it is vital that we have highly skilled, highly qualified, high quality people on the front line of youth services, both as youth workers and in management positions.
  Alan Simpson: I welcome the increased clarity of directions and resources that we are offering local authorities. However, we are ducking the central problem—the failure of Governments to place youth services on a statutory basis. It has always been one of the softer targets—one of the services that local authorities can cut. We would be better advised to grasp the nettle and place youth services on a statutory footing. Perhaps we should follow the lead of the French authorities, which have an audit duty; they have at least to define the range and condition of sports and leisure amenities available to the youth in their areas. Without such an audit, we do not even know the amenity base that we are working from.
  Mr. Lewis: A central part of our strategy is that, for the first time, we have defined adequate and sufficient

  151WH
  services in a range of areas. Now that we have done that, existing legislation gives the Secretary of State the power to intervene and direct local authorities that are not providing an adequate youth service either to provide those services themselves or to insist that another organisation better able to do so take over that responsibility. The proposals in the document effectively put youth services on a statutory footing for the first time. It gives us the power to intervene and direct; we hope that we do not have to use the power, but we shall not hesitate to use it if local authorities that are now being given significantly more resources for youth services fail to fulfil their responsibilities to young people.
  Bob Spink (Castle Point): Is the Minister aware of the youth service policy, and does he agree with it, of having an arbitrary age limit of 25 years old, which excludes people from some clubs? Some of those with severe learning difficulties who are excluded have come to rely on those clubs or social activities; indeed, they bring an awful lot to the clubs by their attendance. Does the Minister agree that their arbitrary exclusion should be avoided, so that they can continue to bring something to the clubs? Is that not an area where common sense rather than prescription would be the best policy?
  Mr. Lewis: I empathise with the point made by the hon. Gentleman. Before being elected to Parliament, I spent many years working with people who had learning disabilities. The point is particularly relevant, although I have to say that the idea of 25-year-old adults attending youth activities is entirely inappropriate and unacceptable. We must have leisure activities that are appropriate for their age.
  I understand how people can feel if a service is withdrawn or if, as they get older, they no longer have access to the same quality of life support that they previously enjoyed. I understand carers' concerns about that, but the challenge is to create age-appropriate services that give those with learning disabilities the opportunity to fulfil their potential and to participate in a mainstream way in the life of their local community.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I have a short administrative announcement. Would Ministers please move two places to their right?

  Citizenship
  Mr Andrew Miller: What plans the Government have to promote active citizenship among young people. [91808]
  The Minister for Policing, Crime Reduction and Community Safety (Mr. John Denham): The Government are committed to enabling our young people to voice their views and to take a full and active part in society. We are already encouraging young people to become more involved in the life of their schools and communities through a number of measures. Statutory citizenship education, which was introduced into the national curriculum last September, encourages young people to consider social and moral responsibility, community involvement and political literacy. The millennium volunteers programme offers young people a practical opportunity to get involved in
  152WH
  their communities. Government Departments have made a commitment to involve young people in the development and design of their services and policies.
  The UK Youth Parliament is also an excellent means of encouraging young people to be more aware of democracy and citizenship. I know that some members of the UKYP are here with us today. I am pleased to be able to announce that the Government will provide continued funding for UKYP next year at an enhanced level—tangible evidence of our commitment to encouraging active citizenship among young people.
  We have done substantial work on getting young people involved and that is linked directly to new initiatives by the Electoral Commission to encourage young people to vote and to ensure that they are on the voting lists.
  Mr. Miller: I welcome my hon. Friend's response. However, there are different problems in different parts of the country, reflecting the varying sizes and structures of local authorities. In my own local authority, which is a small district council, a great deal of positive work is being done to promote youth council work. It has been a tremendous success. Sadly, I have yet to find a little pot of gold that I can tap into—and I am looking at four here—to assist in the development of that programme. It is working. Those of us who represent constituencies that are a considerable distance from London find it very difficult to bring parties of young people down here. The Government should consider that problem. As my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Education and Skills said, local authorities cannot do those things on their own; they need help. I hope that the Government will consider that very carefully.
  Mr. Denham: We need to be clear about what can be funded. Some activities are the responsibility of the Government to fund. For example, we will be funding the UK Youth Parliament with £110,000 of core funding. We will be providing £55,000 to support regional development, as we recognise that not everybody can partake in national activities.
  I am strongly of the view that local youth councils and local youth forums should not be merely an add-on to local authority activity. Local authorities deliver services that will affect young people, and those services will be better if they consult the young people at whom they are aimed. It is unreasonable to expect central Government to pay for the development of local plans; we expect local authorities to do that as part of their business. Local authorities should build in support for youth participation and consultation during every working day rather than do it when there is an extra pot of money available.
  Matthew Green: May I, on behalf of the Liberal Democrats, welcome these cross-cutting youth questions? It is a very positive way of re-engaging young people with the political process. The Minister wishes to promote active citizenship, but what would he say to a 16 or 17-year-old who is in work and paying income tax, national insurance and council tax but who cannot vote for the politicians who set those taxes?
  Mr. Denham: I would say to the hon. Gentleman and to the representatives of the Conservative party that

  153WH
  there has been consultation with young people on the voting age. It should be for the Electoral Commission to decide whether it wants to review independently the arguments for and against a change in the voting age. Several issues must be considered. One is rights, which affect how the question is framed, but we must also consider whether a change in voting age would make a significant difference to the declining participation of young people in the electoral process. We will consider all these matters when the Electoral Commission launches its consultation next month. I know that many young people will take an interest.
  Claire Ward: Voting is just one of the responsibilities involved in active citizenship. Will the Minister review the ages al which children acquire rights to a range of things in Britain? On the national Youth Parliament and the Government's support for it, will the Minister and the Under-Secretary of State for Education and Skills ensure that all schools actively promote the opportunity for their pupils to vote in the elections for members of the Youth Parliament?
  Mr. Denham: We would strongly encourage all schools and all local education authorities to do that—the level of involvement and commitment across the country is varied—and to do so in a way that represents a form of a democratic election. Within the last year, we have taken the powers to give statutory guidance to schools and school governors on how they should involve and listen to young people in the management of schools, sometimes by schools councils, sometimes in other ways. I would pushing the boundaries of this Question Time if I were to answer the wider question of whether there should be a total review of everything, from when somebody can drive to when they can pay tax, or own a firearm.
  Mr. Charles Hendry: Does the Minister agree that the Connexions service, which the Government set up to give young people advice, can play an important role in helping young people to become active citizens, by giving them information on volunteering opportunities? If so, does he share the concerns of many voluntary organisations that are increasingly frustrated by the fact that Connexions makes it harder to give such advice, because it acts as a block on their work? Can he confirm that, although the two are expected to work in partnership, this year Connexions has a budget of £334 million, yet it spent only £2 million with voluntary organisations? How do the Government think that they can encourage young people to get involved in more voluntary activity, when they are so evidently failing to develop a partnership with the voluntary sector?
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education and Skills (Mr. Ivan Lewis): The hon. Gentleman makes an important point about the benefits of getting young people involved in active citizenship through voluntary work, and there is a consensus on that in the House. He did not refer to the millennium volunteers project, which the Government introduced, and which has been an incredible success in getting young people under 16 involved in voluntary work, and continuing with that voluntary work in later life.
  154WH
  I agree that the Connexions service is a vital new youth service that, through work with other youth services, has the potential to transform the opportunities available to young people. It can provide universal high quality advice, information and guidance to young people, work in a more intense way with young people with serious problems who need a lot of support and mentoring assistance, and ensure that such young people have access to the right specialist services.
  I share the hon. Gentleman's view on the Connexions service's engagement with the voluntary sector. There were difficulties in the early days, although Connexions has not been going very long. That is why we recently issued clear guidance to all the Connexions partnerships about how they are expected to work and engage with voluntary and community-based organisations. I shall monitor those partnership relationships and expect to see tangible improvement in the engagement between the partnerships and the voluntary organisations.
  Dr. Phyllis Starkey: One aspect of active citizenship, as the Minister said, is having one's voice heard in the services that affect one. Will the Health Minister say what steps are being taken to ensure that young people's voices as patients and carers are heard through the forums?
  The Minister of State, Department of Health (Jacqui Smith): My hon. Friend makes an important point that is linked to the point made earlier that we should engage young people in the mainstream of public service development. She rightly referred to developments in the health service, such as the setting up of the commission for patient involvement and the patient forum, which are to be set up in every trust. We have already ensured that the consideration of how young people can be engaged in that work is an important priority for that commission. I expect to see efforts made in those patient forums to ensure that young people get a direct voice. We are now considering what we need to do nationally to ensure that there is a young people's voice in that commission for patient involvement. That will ensure that their voice can be heard.
  My hon. Friend also mentioned young carers. Some important work is being supported by both the Government's carers initiative and local schemes to ensure that young carers benefit from the increased investment, and that their voices are heard alongside those of other carers. That work also includes giving advice to schools on identifying and supporting young carers in their important role.

  Sport Action Zone (Stoke-on-Trent)
  6. Ms Joan Walley: What progress has been made in involving young people in a sport action zone in Stoke-on-Trent. [91810]
  The Minister for Sport (Mr. Richard Caborn): I had the opportunity to visit my hon. Friend's constituency to discuss the sport action zone. As she knows, Sport England, which is the Government's agent, is working on 18 further schemes. Twelve schemes are already operational, and a further 18 will be rolled out in the not-too-distant future.

  155WH
  Sport England has been working closely with Stoke-on-Trent city council and the strategic partnership to develop a bid for the whole of Stoke. As my hon. Friend knows, there are two contenders for the region, and I understand that Stoke is making a strong case.
  Ms Walley: I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply, and I hope that our bid will be even stronger as a result of this debate. We are desperately in need of extra support in meeting the city's health needs, although extra work is being done on employment and skills. We feel that the power of sport could transform the aspirations of the people of Stoke-on-Trent.
  Will the Government look urgently at the merits of our case? We must encourage people to aim high, and sport can bring about a transformation. However, I am concerned because there has been a moratorium on decisions by Sport England since we submitted our bid last November. We had expected a result in January, but we understand that no further decisions will be made until April, because of the regional bodies that have been set up. Please can we have a decision—and the right one as soon as possible?
  Mr. Caborn: The new chairman of Sport England, Patrick Carter, has asked that there be no further expenditure for the next three months so that the organisation can take a total view. However, I do not believe that the sport action zones are under threat, and I hope that answers will be made available around April.
  The involvement of young people in the Stoke-on-Trent scheme is important, and I commend the consultation. Young people have developed the scheme through a young people's local strategic partnership. Two of those young people will be on the main local strategic partnership, which is making the bid to Sport England.
  There have been wide consultations with young people, which have been extremely well received. One of the scheme's dimensions therefore relates very much to young people. Indeed, in the real world, and in a practical way, the scheme is very much aimed at the young people of Stoke-on-Trent.
  Mr. Malcolm Moss: Whether or not Stoke-on-Trent's bid is successful, sport action zones are a potential success. There are also encouraging early results from the Youth Justice Board's splash scheme, which shows a 5.2 per cent. reduction in youth crime in the participating areas. Has the Department factored those things into the cost-benefit analysis of bringing the Olympics to this country?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I remind the Minister that we are talking about Stoke-on-Trent.

  Young Prisoners
  Mr. Paul Burstow: What the Government's policy is on children in prisons. [91811]
  The Minister for Policing, Crime Reduction and Community Safety (Mr. John Denham): With the support of the Youth Justice Board, the Government have provided a wide range of alternative sentences for
  156WH
  juveniles and young offenders, including community sentences. However, the most serious or persistent young offenders should receive a custodial sentence.
  The Prison Service has created discrete juvenile institutions, which are for juveniles only. There are also juvenile units in young offenders institutions. As a matter of policy, juveniles and adults are separated in Prison Service establishments. A small number of juveniles may, on occasion, be held outside juvenile institutions for security or medical reasons, or to be close to court. Where possible, they will be held separately from adults.
  Mr. Burstow: I am grateful to the Minister. He will know that over the past 10 years the number of children in custody in adult prisons has doubled. The figure today stands at 2,609. He will also be aware of the report "Safeguarding Children" by the joint inspectors, which expressed many concerns about young offenders institutions. Can he and his colleague from the Department of Health comment on the situation since the judgment by the court in respect of the judicial review called by the Howard League? What extra steps are the Government taking to tackle what Mr. Justice Mumby described as
  "degrading, offensive and totally unacceptable treatment"
  of children, to ensure that all children enjoy their United Nations convention rights? The judge in that case predicted that it was only a matter of time before there was a successful challenge under the human rights legislation. Can he comment on those matters, particularly in the light of the fact that it appears that the Home Office and the Department of Health do not have the same view about whether the Children Act 1989 applies within prisons?
  Mr. Denham: There are two points there. It is misleading to talk about the number of young people in adult prisons without allowing for the segregation of those young people from adults. The number of young people who may mix with adults—meaning 18-year#olds and 19-year-olds—is much smaller than the figure that he gave. There is a small number of cases, for example, in the mother and baby unit at Holloway, in which young women may mix with older women. It is wrong to give the impression that there is a routine mixing of juveniles with ordinary adult offenders in our prisons. That is not the case.
  Mr. Justice Mumby made it clear that one phrase in the guidance said that the Children Act did not apply. He was right to say that that was wrong in law. He also recognised that the philosophy of the guidance concerning young people in the prison system was in line with the aims of the Children Act. Child protection committees are in place, and we are training our staff. We are linking into social services work with young offenders. Some practical issues have to be tackled. If somebody is, say, 200 miles away from his home area—he might be there particularly to ensure that he is in a juvenile institution and not in an adult prison—it is difficult for there to be the necessary practical working links with the social services. We know that improvements are needed, but a substantial commitment has already been made and we shall build on that, following the judgment.
  Vernon Coaker: As co-Chair of the United Kingdom Youth Parliament, some of the members of which are here, I welcome this session and the Minister's comment about funding—it is very good news. Can I ask the Minister about young people and children in prison? We are locking more and more young people up, for longer and from an earlier age. While that makes us appear tough, the re-offending rate is something that we are all concerned about. Can the Minister describe further what happens in prison to encourage those young people to turn away from crime and to reduce their re-offending? What structures are in place to support those young people and their families when they leave prison after three or four months and to stop them from going straight back into a life of crime?
  Mr. Denham: We are aiming to improve the quality of the education and training that is provided in young offenders institutions. There is a new senior post of head of learning and skills in each establishment, and special educational needs co-ordinators and learning support assistants have been appointed on a ratio of one assistant for every ten prisoners. Each young person has an entitlement of 30 hours' education, training and personal development activity per week, as recommended by the social exclusion unit in its report "Bridging the Gap".
  We have concentrated on basic skills. Many of those in young offenders institutions lack the most basic literacy and numeracy skills, and people in those institutions should receive recognition for their achievements—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Could the Minister speak up? He is not being heard at the back.
  Mr. Denham: Some 2,000 young offenders achieved successes in basic literacy and numeracy skills last year. Those improvements in education within the service are enormously important. Equally important is the target that we have set to ensure that 90 per cent, of all young people coming out of custody are engaged in education, training or employment by April 2004. We expect not just those in the young offenders institutions but the youth offending team and the Connexions service to work with those young offenders to ensure that we have a high rate of successful placements when people come out of institutions.
  Tim Loughton: We have heard that the number of children in prison has increased in 10 years from 1,328 to more than 2,600. Why does the Minister think that that has happened? Is it because we are better at apprehending young offenders? Is it because they are committing more serious offences—or is it because we are becoming worse at providing other and more appropriate forms of care and custody?
  Mr. Denham: There are several reasons why the number of young people receiving custodial sentences is increasing. There has undoubtedly been an upward trend over a long period in the more serious forms of offending by young people. There are two ways in which to reduce the trend, the first of which is the development of successful alternatives to custodial sentences. We
  158WH
  spoke earlier about intensive supervision and surveillance programmes targeted on those who would otherwise receive custodial sentences.
  However, more preventive work must be done. In the majority of cases in which 15-year-olds were sent to young offender institutions there were signs much earlier in their lives—sometimes as early as five, six or seven years old—when they fell behind with literacy at school. No Government have succeeded in such early prevention, but I hope that the Green Paper on children at risk to be published in the spring will show the way forward.

  New Deal
  Mr Graham Brady: If the Government will make a statement on the new deal for young people. [91812]
  The Minister for Sport (Mr. Richard Caborn): The new deal is providing individual young people with support to help them back into the world of work, such as education and so on. By the end of last September, 400,000 young people had moved into work since 1997.
  Mr. Brady: I am sure that the Minister knows that one in four of the jobs provided to young people from the new deal has finished before its 13th week. One of the new deal's problems has been the failure to provide lasting long-term employment. He will also know that, in the second year of the new deal—in April 2000–45,930 young people had been through the new deal, and not just once—they had gone back into it. A revolving door had been established that was keeping people out of the unemployment figures, but they were not being provided with long-term work. Can he give me the up-to-date figure of how many young people have been through the new deal for young people twice, three times or more? How many of them have been through the new deal for young people and subsequently through the new deal 25-plus?
  Mr. Caborn: The question shows a weakness in the arrangements, because such matters are not a departmental responsibility of the Ministers present today. I will write to the hon. Gentleman when I receive such information.
  The new deal has been a great success. I represent an inner-city constituency, and the rate of unemployment of its young people has been reduced considerably. Furthermore, 79 per cent, of young people who have entered the new deal for a second time face long-term employment prospects. It has reduced the unemployment level of young people to the lowest level since the 1970s. By any standards, that must be successful. There can be argument about the statistics, but the hon. Gentleman is denigrating a highly successful scheme. Many young people have been given an opportunity in life that they would not have received, had it not been for the new deal.
  3.39 pm
  Sitting suspended for a Division in the House.
  3.51 pm
  On resuming
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Hon. Members may note that a unique power has been established by the Chair in pushing four Ministers of the Crown to the Back Benches, but I hope that it will be for the convenience of hon. Members.

  Victims of Crime
  Mr. Martin Salter: What action the Government are taking to strengthen support for young people who are victims of criminal assaults by other young people. [91813]
  Mrs. Helen Clark: What action the Government are taking to reduce the number of young people who are victims of crime. [91814]
  The Minister for Policing, Crime Reduction and Community Safety (Mr. John Denham): Young people are often the victims of youth crime. Actions such as the street crime initiative have not only reduced street crime overall; they have reduced the extent to which young people have been the victims of crime. In July last year, we introduced new support in the court system for vulnerable and intimidated witnesses, many of whom are young people required to give evidence. In addition, £2 million of the £28 million that we give to Victim Support is designed to support vulnerable and intimidated witnesses.
  Mr. Salter: Considering that one in four permanently excluded school children admitted, in the 2002 MORI youth survey, to stealing a mobile phone, mainly from other young people, does the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education and Skills agree that further work is needed to deal with the problem of permanent exclusions to counter the traumatic effect of youth-on-youth crime?
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education and Skills (Mr. Ivan Lewis): I sympathise with my hon. Friend's point. There is a direct link between permanent exclusion and street crime which we must address. We cannot duck the issue; behaviour and discipline have become a major issue in our schools. Teachers have difficulty with that, and it undermines the ability of young people to learn. There must be support for teachers and head teachers because, in some circumstances, the only option available to them is permanent exclusion.
  What is different now is that from September we have insisted that any child who is permanently excluded must have access to full-time education and objective advice to get them reintegrated into mainstream education as soon as possible. In addition, we are putting a tremendous amount of resources into preventive work, so that young people's behaviour does not deteriorate to such an extent that permanent exclusion is the only option. In excellence in cities areas, learning mentors in units in schools allow teachers to withdraw young people for a short time to work on a one-to-one basis and get the behaviour sorted out before they return to class.
  160WH
  We must also focus on teacher training. We must give teachers the skills and confidence to manage some of the behaviour and discipline problems that they have to face. In some circumstances, permanent exclusion is the only option, but we must make resources available for preventive work so that young people do not drift into criminal activities.
  Mrs. Clark: I am grateful for that reply from the Under-Secretary, as well as for the reply by the Home Office Minister. Will they join me and, I am sure, hon. Members on all sides of the Chamber, in sending condolences to the family in Peterborough of Ross Parker, a 17-year-old killed about a year ago in an unprovoked attack by three young men older than him, who have now been convicted and sent to prison?
  Will Ministers also join me in congratulating the Peterborough community in general, the police and the Jack Hunt school led by Chris Hilliard, where Ross was a student, on the tremendous way in which they have worked together to overcome the divisive effects of that tragic incident? Will Ministers visit Peterborough and the school, and perhaps meet Ross's family?
  Mr. Denham: I certainly join my hon. Friend in sending condolences to Ross Parker's family. I know that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary spoke to them at the time of the murder. I pay tribute to Ross's parents for their clear commitment to ensuring that that tragic event should not prove to be a divisive event in Peterborough. My hon. Friend has said what needs to be said about the work that people have done locally. A huge effort has been made in Peterborough to prevent that event from being even more damaging. If my hon. Friend thinks that it would be of value to the community, I will certainly consider visiting her constituency.
  Richard Younger-Ross: Does the Minister accept that one of the best ways to help a young victim of crime may be to ensure that the period between the incident and the trial is as short as possible? Cases in my constituency have taken over a year to come to trial, and schools that have approached me on the matter are concerned about the impact of that on the victim's education, as well as the damage that the long-drawn-out period does to the perpetrator of the crime.
  Mr. Denham: That is an important point. Members will be aware that when this Government were elected in 1997, it took 142 days on average for a case involving a young offender to come to court. We made that a priority, and for a number of months the average has been less than half that. Some cases will take less time to come to court, just as some will take more.
  It is also important that we provide good support to young people who are required to appear at those trials, whether they have been victims of crime or are witnesses. Among other initiatives, including Victim Support, which we have discussed, I have talked to the Department for Education and Skills about ways in which the Connexions service could provide additional support to young witnesses who are about to go through

  161WH
  the trauma of reliving their experience in court. It is important that we support young victims of crime through a very difficult time in their lives.
  Mr. David Hinchliffe: What consideration are the Government giving in the development of their child protection strategy to assaults on children by their parents? Are the Government considering removing the "reasonable chastisement" defence in respect of physical punishment?
  The Minister of State, Department of Health (Jacqui Smith): As my hon. Friend knows, the Government carried out a consultation on the issue. Although I know that my hon. Friend and other colleagues disagreed with it, many people felt that the law should not be changed to achieve what people see effectively as a ban on parents smacking their children.
  My hon. Friend referred to the defence of reasonable chastisement. After the changes to human rights legislation, it is necessary for any court in this country which is considering a case of assault against a young person in which the defence of reasonable chastisement is being used, to consider the age and, if necessary, gender of the child and the kind of assault that was undertaken. The court must seriously consider whether the case constituted assault.
  With the exception of reasonable chastisement, exactly the same law applies to adults and children. My hon. Friend and others believe that we should make it impossible for parents to smack their children. As I have said previously, that would not help us in the important job, to which my hon. Friend rightly draws attention, of preventing serious abuse against children. There is a clear distinction between a parent smacking their child—something that many of us may deplore—and violence against a child. It does not help us to make that distinction by changing the law as he suggests. We have asked the Attorney-General to keep the defence of reasonable chastisement under review, and assure him that we continue to monitor the situation. I share his concern that we need to tackle abuse against children. That should be our top priority.

  School Governing Bodies
  Paul Holmes: What plans the Government have to require schools to include pupil representatives as associate members of school governing bodies. [91815]
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education and Skills (Mr. Ivan Lewis): From 1 September it will be possible for pupils and others to be appointed as associate members of school governing bodies, enabling them to attend full governing body
  162WH
  meetings and to be members of governing body committees. We have no plans to make it compulsory for governing bodies to make such appointments.
  Paul Holmes: I thank the Minister for his reply. I welcome it, at least in part. When I was teaching at my second school in the 1980s, we had an effective series of pupil school governors. Unfortunately, Lady Thatcher's Government did away with them.
  Many schools today have effective school councils; they use pupils to interview candidates for middle management and even for headship posts, as my last school did. Ofsted is now proposing to take evidence from pupils when doing school inspections. In the light of all that, and if promoting active citizenship is to mean anything, will the Minister assure us that the Government will reconsider the lack of urgency in, or commitment to, the matter of requiring all schools to allow pupils to become full, active school governors?
  Mr. Lewis: If the hon. Gentleman was teaching in the 1980s, I could have had the privilege of being one of his pupils. The substantive point is that the Government are not neutral on that issue. We believe that it is part of the school standards agenda actively to involve young people in making key decisions about schools. How the schools do that must be left to them. It would be entirely inappropriate for us to prescribe the models that should be deployed in those circumstances.
  If young people are to be motivated, the school environment should reflect their needs; young people should be turned on to learning, not turned off. Their active engagement and involvement in key roles and in the decision-making process is vital for the school community and for the skills that we want young people to develop for later life.
  Another point is that the Connexions service actively involves young people in the recruitment policy; they recruit personal advisers and, in some circumstances, are involved in selecting chief executives. We are making significant progress. It is important to raise educational standards—the matter should not be treated as a sideshow—and to ensure that young people feel positively about their educational experience.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I thank hon. Members for enduring this afternoon's technical vicissitudes. I repeat that I would be delighted to hear privately from hon. Members about today's proceedings. It has been difficult to balance the need to achieve breadth with the need to ensure that penetrating serial questions are asked. We shall have to think about that and decide whether we should attempt to take fewer questions. I am sure that all those matters will be reviewed.
  I also announce that there is to be a special meeting of the all-party children group with members of the Youth Parliament, now that the question session has ended. It will take place in Committee Room 21, and I understand that any colleagues who would like to go along for a discussion about what has taken place will be extremely welcome.
  I propose suspending the sitting for two minutes to allow people who are not staying for the debate to leave.
  Sitting suspended.

Pathways to Work
Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting be now adjourned. —[Charlotte Atkins.]
4.2 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Maria Eagle): May I say how pleased I am to open the debate on the Green Paper "Pathways to work: Helping people into employment", which we published by way of a statement in the House on 18 November 2002? I take this opportunity to remind hon. Members that the consultation closes on 10 February 2003, so there is still plenty of time for hon. Members and others who have an interest in these matters to send us their comments and suggestions.
It is appropriate that we are considering the issues that are raised by the Green Paper during the European year of people with disabilities—I was pleased to attend the celebration launch yesterday. Work, and access to work, is one of the biggest and most important issues facing disabled people. One of the key goals of the Department for Work and Pensions is the improvement of the employment rate for disabled people. That is also a crucial part of the wider Government strategy for the full inclusion of disabled people in our society. We have a twin-track strategy to make progress, which is both facilitating pathways into work—that is what the Green Paper and this debate are about—and improving the civil rights of disabled people while seeking to end discrimination against them, whether in the workplace or anywhere else.
Hon. Members who are assiduous in respect of their duties—I have only to look around to see how assiduous they are—will have seen that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions made a written ministerial statement yesterday announcing our intention to publish, for pre-legislative scrutiny, a disability Bill in draft later this year. That will enable us to deal with the gaps and omissions that remain in the Disability Discrimination Act 1995. That, taken together with the changes that we are making in order to comply with article 13 of the employment directive, and with the full implementation of the remaining provisions of the Disability Discrimination Act by October 2004, will represent the biggest expansion of civil rights for disabled people ever seen in this country.
We have an environment that is conducive to change and which will enable disabled people to take their rightful place in the workplace. We need, however, to take practical steps to help disabled people overcome the barriers to work that they face. That is what "Pathways to Work" is all about.
I will briefly set out the scale of the problem. The good news is that, because we have record levels of employment in a strong and stable economy, the environment in this country is conducive to progress. Almost 1.5 million new jobs have been created since 1997. Some 74.3 per cent, of people of working age are in work—that is the highest percentage ever in the UK and it is the second best of all the G7 countries. We also have the lowest unemployment level in the G7 for the first time in nearly 50 years. Some of the most disadvantaged in the labour market have benefited most from the developments. For example, long-term unemployment has fallen by 75 per cent., which is
164WH
greater than the fall in the general level of unemployment. There has been a 500,000 fall in the level of unemployment.
We can realistically hope to make progress in respect of the employment levels of disabled people, and we have, but the obstacles are formidable. A trend is emerging throughout the developed world of increasing numbers of working-age people being in receipt of sickness or incapacity benefits with no evidence of a commensurate increase in ill health in the population as a whole.
That trend is apparent in Britain. There are currently 2.7 million people on incapacity benefits, which includes severe disablement allowance. There was a 6 per cent, increase between 1997 and 2002. Before the hon. Member for Daventry (Mr. Boswell) suggests that that does not represent progress, I gently remind him that the last Conservative Government presided over a 26 per cent, increase in those numbers between 1992 and 1997.
Mr. Tim Boswell rose—
Maria Eagle: I will give way in a moment.
In case the hon. Gentleman thinks that I am being selective with the years that I have mentioned, the number of people on sickness and incapacity benefits tripled between 1979 and 1997.
Mr. Boswell: The Minister does me a slight disservice, because I rose on a different point. My wife comes from industrial south Wales. We should recognise that geographic areas that have a history of high unemployment, deprivation and relatively low health tend to express the trend mentioned by the Minister. Perhaps there is evidence of a slight cultural and local factor as well as a purely objective derivation.
Maria Eagle: The hon. Gentleman is right. I apologise for giving way to him on a point to which he was not intending to reply. There are geographical variations and other types of variation as well, all of which require careful study before deciding what can be done about the problems. As well as the rate of increase of those on incapacity benefits slowing there are other good signs—a narrowing in the gap between the unemployment rate of the working-age population as a whole and that of disabled people, for example. Between 1998–2002, the employment rate of working-age disabled people rose by about 4.5 per cent. It is still below the average for working-age people who are not disabled, but there is evidence of a narrowing, which should be welcomed.
We must remember that disabled people are still five times as likely to be unemployed as non-disabled people. In order to ensure that disabled people benefit from the increasing economic prosperity that I have outlined, we must close that gap.
What are the relevant facts about the benefit that will help us to come up with solutions? Almost half of all those on incapacity benefit are on the benefit for more than five years. Those on incapacity benefit for more than one year remain on that benefit for eight years, on average. However, we know that 90 per cent, of those coming on to incapacity benefit expect to return to work

165WH
when they first make their claim, so the trend is not evidence of malingering, scrounging or deliberately trying to play the system.
The people concerned want to work and expect to return to work. We know that 1 million disabled people on benefit say that they would like to work, but we are not as good at helping them to meet their aspirations as we are at helping those who are more traditionally unemployed. We must try to improve.
We have made some helpful changes—increasing flexibility in the benefit system, for example, making work pay and offering specialist help by way of disability employment programmes. The incapacity benefit linking rules, which were extended in 1998 to 52 weeks, enable people on that benefit to try out work. If, because of their health condition or for any other reason, they are not able to remain in employment, they can go back on benefit at the level at which they were before. To somebody with a health condition, the insecurity of worrying about taking a job and then losing it, and where that puts that person in relation to their benefit was a big disincentive to disabled people to try out work. The linking rules should remove that disincentive. We should remember that if a disabled person is in receipt of disabled person's tax credit, the linking rules extend to two years.
There is also a change in the therapeutic earnings rules, as they used to be known, in respect of permitted work. It allows people on incapacity benefit to work for an unlimited time earning up to £20 a week. If they work for less than 16 hours a week, they can retain their benefit while earning up to £67.50 a week for 26 weeks, and for a further 26 weeks if that will assist them. The therapeutic earnings rules used to require a doctor's certificate stating that work would be of benefit to somebody's health condition. That is no longer necessary. We have also uprated the earnings limit in incapacity benefit, which enables people to keep some of their benefit in line with the national minimum wage. Such changes help to make work pay and ease the difficult transition from being on benefit to being in work.
In addition to doing what we can to increase the flexibilities in the benefit rules, we have also, as a Department, improved our advisory services. We have developed some of our specialist disability employment programmes. For example, the creation of Jobcentre Plus is designed to provide a personalised service to those who require our assistance with getting back into work. That sort of more customer-focused, individualised service can assist only when helping people who are facing multiple barriers to work.
We have some long-standing programmes, such as workstep, although it has been reformed from the old support and employment programme to emphasise progression into non-supported work environments. Programmes such as access to work assist individuals in dealing with the costs of their disability to the extent that it is a barrier to work. New programmes, such as the new deal for disabled people, are trying innovative ways of helping disabled people into the workplace.
For many years, our services have attempted to provide additional assistance and, as I go round the country, I value the work of the disability employment
166WH
advisers and the network of often very dedicated people who are skilled at assisting local disabled people into work. That work is ongoing and we are learning from it, but we need to do more.
The Green Paper outlines the next steps, which are concerned with how we can learn from what we have done already to improve the service that we can offer to people on sickness and incapacity benefits who want to work. I will briefly outline some of our ideas. We believe that a more tailored and intensive support system should be delivered at the point at which people start to receive incapacity benefits. I am referring to the flow on to the benefit, the point at which people are most job-ready. Having just come out of work, people are often at their most ambitious to get back to it and have expectations that they will. We believe that an intervention at that point could be effective, so we intend to deliver more intensive support in a new package of help.
As hon. Members will recall, having read the document, we intend to pilot the approach in six different areas—three pilots starting in October and three further pilots starting next April, with almost £97 million worth of new resources to establish whether we can devise a system that will work. The basis of it is that early, frequent support from skilled personal advisers, direct access to a range of specialist programmes and clear financial incentives to work will make a real difference to people as they start to receive incapacity benefits.
As for the better framework of support, those who are eligible for it in the pilot areas will receive an intensive series of work-focused interviews. They will not be compulsory for everybody with every condition. There will be exemptions because the package is devised to help those who are able to, and want to, get back to work, not to put disabled people and people with severe conditions through some kind of hoop in order to prove that they deserve their benefits. The approach is not coercive but supportive.
The personal adviser and the disabled person will produce action plans to set out a way of going forward and meeting aspirations to return to work. We recognise that our personal advisers will need new and better skills to deal with the client group because interventions will be more difficult. The advice will not be as straightforward as some personal advice that we can give now in Jobcentre Plus.
There will be direct access to a wider range of help including joint programmes that will join job-focused support with rehabilitation in conjunction with local NHS providers. That has great potential to be very effective.
Many of those on incapacity benefit—about 35 per cent., from memory—have a mental impairment of one kind or another, whether that is a learning disability or a mental illness such as depression. About 22 per cent, of people on incapacity benefit have back pain or musculoskeletal difficulties. If there were interventions and rehabilitations at that level, many of those people would be able to return to work, and many aspire to do that.
We had excellent results when we piloted such an approach in Salford and Bristol, and I shall briefly outline some of them because they are encouraging. The pilot involved 91 volunteers who were on a range of

167WH
benefits. Fifty were on incapacity benefit, 27 were on jobseeker's allowance, and the rest were inactive or on no benefits. About two thirds of the people had been sacked or had resigned from work because of back pain. They had been out of work for an average of three years and had suffered from back pain for an average of eight and a half years. The volunteers undertook courses in groups ranging in size from eight to 12 people. The programme was quite short because it lasted for four to six weeks. More than 95 per cent, of the people who started the course completed it.
Six months after the programme had ceased, 40 per cent. of the participants were in paid employment, which was full-time employment in almost all cases, and 25 per cent. were in job training education or voluntary work, and were thus edging closer toward the labour market. The results from the intervention are interesting and promising. We aim to pilot the scheme in a more widely more scientific manner in order to determine whether it can help.
We will also offer an improved visible financial incentive: the return to work credit. It is tremendously important to offer unambiguously a better-off calculation that works for people if we expect them to go back to work. None of us would choose to work for nothing. We like our work for many reasons, but pay is certainly one of those. It is not reasonable for us to expect people who have been out of the labour market for some time to go back to work for the love of it, although work can have other beneficial effects. People, especially those with health conditions such as depression, find that going back to work is a healthy thing to do. However, that does not remove the requirement to ensure unambiguously that those who make the effort receive a financial reward.
The return to work credit would operate through Jobcentre Plus. It would be £40 a week for 52 weeks for those who return to work but earn less than £15,000 a year. That will send a strong signal and it will be a popular measure that will have an impact on those who wish to return to work. We are also considering extending the advisers discretionary fund of up to £300 for any individual case.
I often go around the country meeting people who work for Jobcentre Plus and the Department, and I am often struck by the imagination, hard work and dedication of many of our staff. The advisers discretionary fund is an active tool that is entirely based on the discretion of the adviser, and it can remove those last difficult barriers to returning to work. Increasing the payment to up to £300 could have a major impact in tackling the last barriers in a flexible way, and will be great value for money.
We also want to make sure that there is better support for people with health problems who are on jobseeker's allowance. According to the Green Paper, some people fail their medical assessment—the personal capability assessment—and end up having to come off incapacity benefit. Many go back on to jobseeker's allowance. Such people do not necessarily receive the help getting back to work that they might reasonably expect.
We want to ensure that we do not clock up the fact that someone is no longer eligible for incapacity benefit as a success, rather that we help that person into work. We intend to make sure that such people receive
168WH
specialist help, including personal advice, and straight away have new deal opportunities and a proper jobseeker's agreement. We also want to ensure that we recognise their health needs. Just because someone does not pass the personal capability assessment, it does not necessarily mean that they do not have a health condition. We also intend to focus on those who go back on to jobseeker's allowance, and are therefore technically not on sickness or incapacity benefit.
As I say, the Green Paper is out for consultation at the moment, and that is another reason why I welcome the opportunity to set out our plans. Once the consultation is over and we have considered the responses, we will come forward with suggestions on which of its ideas we will take forward. Before the pilots are extended nationally, we will evaluate them fully. The policy issue of the increasing numbers of our fellow citizens claiming sickness and incapacity benefit and not fully receiving the help that we give to jobseekers is a major problem that needs to be dealt with. If we came up with interventions that allowed us to deal with the issue, it would be a major success in social policy terms, and would be a great boost to our commitment and determination to ensure the full inclusion of disabled people in our society.
Sir Nicholas Winterton (in the Chair): It might be helpful for Members to know that the debate will conclude at one minute to 6 o'clock. I call Mr. Boswell.
4.27 pm
Mr. Tim Boswell: I welcome the opportunity to debate the issue of pathways to work, and I welcome the tone in which the Minister introduced the debate. Those of us who are interested in vocational rehabilitation and the employment of disabled people are, sadly, too few—although some hon. Members have duties elsewhere at the moment—so we can probably treat each other as hon. Friends in terms of our commitment to the subject, even if some of our approaches vary.
As we are giving proper plaudits—or credit where it is due—I am grateful to the Government for announcing the draft disability Bill, which will repair the omissions in civil rights in this subject. However, I should warn the Minister that I came to the debate straight from participating in the Royal Association for Disability and Rehabilitation's annual general meeting. I asked a distinguished and active campaigner in the disability rights movement her opinion of the new Bill, and she replied rather firmly, "When I've seen it, I'll comment on it." We need that caveat; however, the sooner we see it, the better. On balance, it is probably better that the Bill has a period in draft, because it is important that we get it right. The Minister need not necessarily assume that we wish to diminish its provisions, because we may well want to beef it up in some parts. That will depend.
David Cairns: Is it not good that the reason why the Bill is still a considerable way off is to allow for pre-legislative scrutiny? That has not always happened in the past. It will allow people from RADAR and all the other organisations that the

169WH
hon. Gentleman and I know well from this field to make a contribution that is more likely to have an effect before the Bill is drafted.
Mr. Boswell: There is always an argument about whether to do such things before or after, and some of us are critical of the way in which the Government have, to some extent, compressed scrutiny during the passage of Bills, because I like discussing Bills in detail. If the pre-legislative scrutiny has that effect, and if RADAR and the other organisations can get at the Bill before things are set in stone, I will support it. Time will tell whether that is the case, but I do not wish to start on an ungracious note.
As the Minister said, this subject is very important. Currently, 2.7 million of our people—a very significant proportion of the labour force—are on one incapacity benefit or another. Last year, the Prime Minister rather briskly described that as a scandal; on that, I agree with him.
To make a point that the Minister tried to elicit from me earlier, the number of claimants declined after changes were made in 1995 but is now beginning to creep up again. The Government's introduction to their Green Paper rather archly referred to people on incapacity benefit as not yet fully sharing in the success of the Government's welfare to work strategy. That is a bit of spin, but it makes a genuine point; they must do better, and the Minister concedes that that is the case. My party would back any action that encourages people to stay attached to the labour market, provided that it is not coercive, to borrow a word that she used.
Maria Eagle: When I was preparing for the debate, I noticed a parliamentary question that had been put down by the hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs (Mr. Flight), who is well known for looking for public expenditure savings. He asked whether it was the Government's policy to pay incapacity benefit for a fixed term. Is that Conservative party policy?
Mr. Boswell: The Minister needs to sort out her grammar. An interrogative is not a statement, and she should not confuse them.
We have a common objective; we want the same thing, so there is no point in messing about. I remember the Minister for Work disarming me once at Question Time by saying, "I think that we all want the same thing, even if we have to dress things up in politically charged language." We will not debate this matter further, because we accept that that is the case.
I welcome an announcement in a reply from the Minister for Work—and therefore from the Minister's Department—to a letter that I wrote on behalf of Rehab UK, which had expressed concerns about its financing of its specialist centres. The announcement put on the record on behalf of the Department that there was an economic benefit in vocational rehabilitation. We know that there is a personal benefit in that, but there is also—if I may put my gloss on it—a good business case for it. I am pleased that the Minister agrees with that.
It is a little chilling—but not very surprising—that the letter went on to say that that is to be judged against other priorities; 'twas ever thus, perhaps. The key is to
170WH
get the right balance in our judgments, and we need to stimulate interest in achieving a much better understanding of the statistics and the case for these kinds of intervention. I will return to that point.
In this Room a couple of days ago, there was a very absorbing and rather good Adjournment debate on rehabilitation after brain injury. Figures from Rehab UK were quoted that suggested that the number of persons who had been through programmes and were then unable to find work was discouraging; some 60 per cent, of its throughput were unable to find work. There are also indications that the number of people returning to work in this country after a serious brain injury is lower than in the United States of America, for example. I hope that when the Minister looks at good practice in this country, she will also look at lessons that can be learned from other countries.
I will make two further points, neither of which is intended to be contentious. Indeed, to some extent the Minister is beginning to pick them up in the new Green Paper. The first is that there should be a seamless web—not a chasm, as there has often been—in respect of the health end of rehabilitation after such injuries. That does not mean only brain injuries, although those in the field often say that the quality of rehabilitation services for those is a proxy for the quality of rehabilitation services generally.
We understand that treatments start in hospital and may have to go through other primary medical phases but they cannot simply stop there, with the chain being broken. We need a continuous pathway, as the Health Committee's report on brain injury nearly three years ago made clear. Nor can the services be divorced from all the social agencies. It is not only a matter of the Employment Service but of supported or adapted housing, for example. The more we can bring such services together and, to borrow some Government jargon, join them up, the better.
It is in that context that I welcome the Minister's readiness to consider local NHS providers as part of job preparation and preparing people for returning to work. If she wants to examine a case after brain trauma, one of the most interesting that I can offer is the experience of the admirable community brain injury service at Aylesbury under Dr. Andy Tyerman, which has an excellent record. It has won awards, is practically focused and involves all the agencies. Even at the more intense, medical end, the more one is prepared to bring in psychologists to intervene early, the better. There is a common objective: bringing people back to work.
My second general point is implicit in the Green Paper. Maintaining people's position of employment is often at least as important as opening up opportunities for those who are already disabled and may never have participated in employment. We are conducting a double-headed operation, and properly so.
Chronic degeneration that is not remediated by reasonable adjustments can eventually drive people to retire from the work force and on to incapacity benefit. I have been given a figure for weekly entry into 113 of 3,300. It is not the figure that is chilling so much as the number of people who go on to IB and stay there for six months or more. The number returning to work after that is disappointingly low.

171WH
There are several points to be made about that. The first—I concede to the Minister—is the need for an emphasis on early, though not premature, intervention. Intense therapy and focus are welcome and we will want to monitor how the pilots work. We have come light years from discussions about malingering and other negative phrases, but there is a sense in which these problems compound themselves. If people have an accident or injury or develop a condition and are unable to work comfortably, they may leave the work force. That can become a progressive problem, with people becoming dispirited so that they do not get involved. We are at one in our general approach. We do not want entry to IB to become a one-way ticket to permanent exclusion from the labour force.
It is good sense to set up arrangements to encourage the retention in employment of people with impairments or chronic or growing disabilities. That should be done in parallel with action to create opportunities for people who are being employed for the first time. The two go together. I am always struck by the quite low cost of the adjustments and adaptations that may have to be provided. They can be complicated, as with the brain trauma cases that I mentioned, but it may just be a matter of a better seat or lighting or a different posture. The changes may be almost cost-free. The Minister may like to remind us that the average cost of adjustment is about £175, not the thousands of pounds that many employers fear.
I, too, would like to praise the work of disability employment advisers, although they are sometimes constrained by targets. For example, with learning disabilities and mental health, there is a suggestion that people will not be taken on unless it is felt that they will have returned to employment within six months. That may not always be possible and it may act as a deterrent. DEAs still have too low a profile in the Employment Service and it is not self-evident that that will change automatically with Jobcentre Plus or the new pathways to work.
We should also pay tribute to the specialist agencies in the voluntary sector that give advice, such as the Royal National Institute of the Blind and Mencap, which do immensely valuable work. I shall further discuss that relationship shortly.
The Government need to sort themselves out in respect of some formal problems relating to arrangements for people at work. I have been banging on about that for some time and making some interesting revelations. For example, at one point, the Health and Safety Executive was parked with the Department for Transport, but I am pleased that we managed to get it back to the Department for Work and Pensions.
There is a split—with reason, as there always is in government—in that occupational health is under the Department of Health, including its consultancy arm, NHS Plus, while vocational rehabilitation is under the Department for Work and Pensions. I mention that not to suggest that that cannot work, but to point out that Ministers in both Departments must actively ensure that the interface is successful, especially given some of the schemes that the Minister is introducing today. Ministers must offer a common front or pathway on
172WH
disability issues. That is sometimes called joined-up government, and the Minister might like to comment on that.
I shall discuss points that arise from, or have been made to me about, the pathways document. Specialist return to work services, protection in work services or adaptation in work services require a heavy input in terms of personnel, time and, to some extent, depending on the case involved, physical resources. We need to concede that they will not always have an immediate or easy outcome. Ministers are fond of adopting targets, and Oppositions of crowing when they are not met. Sometimes the targets change or are reinterpreted. We need not go into that now, but it is an area where we are trying to get the glass half-full, not half-empty. I shall try to reflect that in my comments now and subsequently.
The Government's paper talks of 700,000 people a year coming on to benefits for the first time, and mentions a similar figure—although one is a stock while the other is a flow—for the number of disabled people for whom work would be appropriate but who are not working. The Minister was frank in saying that that is not good enough and that we must do better.
The Minister did not say much about the new deal for disabled people, however, and I have found it hard to get a clear evaluation from the Government of how it is going. She will no doubt say, in part, that it is early days. I accept that, and I make my remarks in the context of realising that it is perhaps better to try than not to be successful at all, but the idea that 94,000 people are involved through all the job brokers and the scheme's agents while it leads to only about 1,400 or 1,600 long-term, secure, continuing placements is depressing. We need to reflect on why that should be and Ministers should ask more questions.
It is no wonder that Ministers have been coy and have not set targets for the pathways to work. Of course, if there are no targets, they cannot be missed. I say that not just for the sake of political debate. There is a real point about how much we should measure and how much should take place experimentally.
Miss Anne Begg: Setting targets in this area could be dangerous. If the Government were to set them and then fall short, they might be tempted to pursue them in a way that would lead to coercion. For this to work, it is crucial that disabled people and those on incapacity benefit do not believe that they are being forced into jobs and that their benefits will be at risk if they do not take them. We must put the message out loud and clear, but setting targets will make it harder to hear.
Mr. Boswell: I am genuinely grateful to the hon. Lady for her comment. In support of her general point, I feel strongly that we should not give people the impression that they are being dragooned into work regardless of how they feel or of how they can perform, and if targets work—I cited a complaint that was put to me—we should resist that firmly.
My point is that Ministers like to set targets in most areas, yet they have been very coy in this one. There might be reasons for that, but it is incumbent on them to look carefully at how the pilots work. They have not always done that; the pilots of the new deal for disabled

173WH
people were quickly rolled into the main scheme. Ministers should satisfy themselves, critically and objectively, that interventions are suitable and that any additional moneys are appropriately used.
I come now, on this tour of particular issues, to access to work. The Minister hardly mentioned it, which might be revealing. The scheme is important, not merely because it was introduced by a Conservative Government—extra money has been made available by the present Government—but because if it is that good, I am surprised that only some 25 per cent, of employers surveyed had heard of it. It is not well understood. For quite small costs of adjustment, it could make a huge difference—it needs to be publicised vigorously. While the Minister is looking at pilot schemes in some areas, she should address the national picture too.
May I give a small warning? I am concerned about any suggestion of using the disability rights lever as an alternative driver on employers. We all know that employers are recalcitrant, do not want to know and will not change their attitudes, so it might be necessary to get tough with them. However, it is important to emphasise the business case, the relatively low cost of most reasonable adjustments and the fact that access to work is available where there are significant additional costs.
I shall touch briefly on supported employment. There was a concern, which has not been much replayed since the introduction of workstep, that some targets set by Ministers would cause people who were comfortably established in supported employment, and often preferred it, to be pushed on as part of a churning exercise to meet targets. I have not heard much about that lately, but I invite the Minister to comment on the potential danger.
It is not surprising, in view of the Minister's figure of one third of the case load being on incapacity benefits, that representations that I have received on the pathways document have tended to concentrate on learning disabilities and mental health. That is appropriate, because they present some of the most intractable problems when it comes to gaining employment. For example, Mencap points out that only 10 per cent, of learning disabled people are employed. That is even more depressing than the overall figure for disabled people. One is looking at substantially less activity than one would expect in the fully able work force. I think that those people matter, even if some costs are greater and the economic return is relatively low. Many of them, some of whom are put into work by their own employment agencies, give excellent service. They are loyal employees, and they get great satisfaction from their participation in the labour market.
In that context, there is still concern about the 16-hour rule and its interaction with the tax credits. For example, Mencap has pointed out to me that it is possible to work for up to four hours under the minimum wage—£20 a week under income support—without losing incapacity benefit. People who do more than 16 hours of work could receive support from tax credit, although there is an awkward transition zone between five and 15 in which neither might be possible. I do not ask the Minister to find an instant answer to that, but I mention it as a continuing concern.
174WH
The learning disability charities and the mental health charities have concerns over whether the new arrangements will carry enough specialist firepower—if I may put it that way—to deal with the problems of the individuals involved. The answer is not to expect a disability adviser to cover the whole lot, like a paragon who understands everything. They have huge and broad expertise, however, and the new arrangements might stimulate that, thereby allowing for greater specialisation in the cadre of advisers. However, the problem can be overcome if one of the adviser's skills is the referral on and if they can use, for example, the voluntary sector in which they have expertise to handle a case and to make progress. Ministers have made progress on that with the outsourcing of part of the new deal for disabled people, and I hope that they consider the same approach on pathways, because not everything can be covered.
Two matters from my constituency experience bear on the issue. I have a constituent who wishes to be a disc jockey, but who happens to be totally blind. His case came to my attention because I read about it in the local paper. He needs some support for that ambition. One of the arguments about access to work—official arguments on principle are often
maddeningly consistent, if I may put it that way—was that all disc jockeys need a certain way of stacking their CDs and that there was nothing distinctive about my constituent's needs. Therefore, there was no need for access to work, unless there was an incremental benefit. I can just about understand that argument.
However, an especial difficulty—I have gone back to the local branch of the Employment Service and I do not need to seek an Adjournment debate on the case—was that it offered him driver support, but at the national minimum wage. In Daventry, there is no chance of his picking up such support for less than about £7 an hour, so he must either subsidise the cost out of his earnings or not take the driver.
A case that bears more on the issue of specialist expertise is that of a lady with a severe latex allergy, and I became one of the joint parliamentary presidents of the Latex Allergy Support Group partly on the basis of it. The condition is quite uncommon, but more common than it should be, and that lady has had great difficulties in getting the right mix of support. That is not because anyone seeks to be unhelpful, but because the condition is not fully understood and aspects of it cannot be remedied easily. To be fair, the matter is difficult and I do not criticise the officers, but I must use the case as an example of some of the problems.
In closing my remarks, I refer to some long-term issues. The Minister opened in the spirit of inquiry and will, I hope, be amenable to listening to, and reflecting on, some of our concerns, although no instant answer is required. I have listed five of those on which the Government have not gone far enough in the Green Paper. The first is the question of adequate flexibility in the interaction between benefits and work.
I readily accept—as does Mencap, which stressed the point in its briefing to me—the highly beneficial changes that have been made in the linking rules, which are much better. A psychology is developing that has moved away from the idea that people are either in work or out of work and on benefit, and never the twain shall meet. There is now a much more flexible and nuanced

175WH
arrangement. I may have mentioned to the Minister previously that, although I know of people with a physical injury who have felt well enough to work, until people go out and try, they do not know whether they can do it or not. People might run close to the law if they work, and a more flexible approach is required in such cases. One has been pioneered, but it needs further development.
Secondly, we all want to help, but good will is not always the best counsellor. We need a proper and rigorous evaluation of pilot studies, when they take place, and of the various activities that are taking place elsewhere in support of pathways to work. There is no point in shutting our eyes if remedies do not work; we need to concentrate on ones that do, while accepting that conditions differ throughout the country and that local discretion is important.
The hon. Member for Greenock and Inverclyde (David Cairns) would, I am sure, wish me to voice my support for his plea that one of the pilots should go to his constituency. I understand his views, although I hope that he will still make a speech. To be more objective, however, I hope that pilots will be spread around the country and reflect the differences that exist. Dare I put in a plea for some rural areas to be considered? There are disabled people who live in rural areas, and not everything goes well for them.
My third point is perhaps more unusual than the others, but I hope that it is proper to make it in this context. In future, our understanding of the Human Rights Act 1998 and of equality legislation may change. It may be that a single oversight body will be in place, and the Minister referred to changes that the draft disability Bill will introduce. She knows that I have just been chairing a meeting of RADAR at which we discussed some of those issues. It has become clear to me that, when we consider discrimination, attitude is critical. I see the Minister nodding. That is not a legal issue, but it relates closely to human rights. We should have the right attitude to people who are disabled or who have impairments or conditions that could give rise to discrimination.
It is important that measures are acceptable to people in the work place, and the Employers Forum on Disability, which I know reasonably well, is considering that issue. It is terribly important that trade unions—the other part of the social partnership—are seen to be involved and that measures are acceptable to them. Otherwise, difficult issues may arise, such as some people saying that there is a health and safety issue when there is not or when it could be overcome. Such disagreements can foul our best intentions.
I want to make two other more general points. We need better pathways. We would all agree with that and it is explicit in the title of the consultation paper, but, for the pilot schemes, Ministers should consider the possibility of having a single budget holder who can cut through bureaucratic tangles. The Minister referred to the advisers discretionary fund of £300. However, we should consider the whole range of provision—in health, housing, social care, transport, work place adaptions, physiotherapy and elsewhere—as it may be necessary for someone to go out, as would happen with an insured work force, and provide the missing component that may not otherwise be available. That
176WH
may cross departmental boundaries. We must consider the possibility of putting budgets together so that there can be a single pathway.
Advocacy is a related issue. Most disabled people, if they return to employment, will be mentally capable, but, as the paper suggests, they may not always he strong advocates of their own cases. There should be advocacy for them, however, perhaps outside the system when appropriate, and proper case management that can take them through that pathway. That is all for the future.
I concede that Ministers have not claimed arrogantly to have solved the problems. In so far as they approach the matter with a degree of humility, they will have our sympathy and support. I suggest that a mixture is required—the right blend of humility and persistence—because the problems are deep seated and terribly important to the individual. Incidentally, they are also significant to the economy. They did not start today, they will not go away tomorrow and it is extremely important that we start on the path that leads to their being resolved to a much greater extent than has been so far achieved.
5 pm
Ann McKechin: I welcome the Government's paper on issues surrounding incapacity benefit, and I congratulate the Department on the imaginative solutions that it proposes to encourage and support substantially more claimants back into the labour market. Sadly, it is in my home city of Glasgow that the worst problems exist.
Sitting suspended for a Division in the House.
5.24 pm
On resuming
Sir Nicholas Winterton (in the Chair): I hope that the House agrees that we should restart our debate.
Ann McKechin: Thank you very much, Sir Nicholas.
Sadly, it is in Glasgow that the worst incapacity benefit problems exist. I believe that Glasgow needs special attention, and I hope that I can establish a case for that today. Glasgow, by a very long way, has the highest number of claimants—39,000, which is more than any other city outside London. Incredibly, although our population is only 609,000, about 25 per cent, of them claim incapacity benefit.
Sir Nicholas Winterton (in the Chair): I have to say to the hon. Lady that I sympathise with her and all in Westminster Hall, but I am obliged by Standing Orders to suspend the sitting. As soon as Members can get back, we will begin yet again.
5.25 pm
Sitting suspended for a Division in the House.
5.36 pm
On resuming
Sir Nicholas Winterton (in the Chair): Once again, I apologise to hon. Members who are taking part in the

177WH
debate in Westminster Hall this afternoon for what I can only describe as the eccentricities of the House of Commons. I apologise in particular to the hon. Member for Glasgow, Maryhill (Ann McKechin), who has already started her speech twice. This will be the third time. I know that other Members wish to speak who need to leave promptly because of trains and other things.
Ann McKechin: Thank you again, Sir Nicholas. Third time lucky, I hope.
Although the city population of Glasgow is only 609,000, we have more than 25 per cent, more incapacity benefit claimants than Birmingham and almost double the number in Manchester—both are cities which, like Glasgow, have experience of heavy industry in their recent past.
According to the latest statistics, seven of Glasgow's constituencies are in the top 100 United Kingdom employment blackspots. Last year, the Child Poverty Action Group rated three Glasgow seats, including my own, as the worst constituencies for child poverty in the UK. Glasgow also has the highest concentration of heroin injectors in Europe, and the Greater Glasgow health board estimates that we have 15,000 drug addicts, four times the national average. Glasgow also has rising suicide rates among the young, continuing alcohol misuse and chronic ill health statistics that are among the worst in Europe.
Problems of that nature are not unique to my city, but the sheer scale and concentration of deprivation mark Glasgow out as a place that deserves special treatment. I commend the Government on the programmes introduced in the past five or six years, which have already made a significant contribution towards Glasgow's renewal. During that period, the total unemployed count in Glasgow has fallen by more than 15,000. Glasgow is enjoying substantial expansion for the first time in many years: last year, the job growth rate was more than 7 per cent., the highest in any UK city. The consequent new build of office space in the city centre, together with substantial capital investment in our schools, housing and hospitals, has led to many additional jobs, for example, in the construction industry. In fact, there are already skills shortages in that sector.
The proposed transfer of the city council's rented housing stock—the largest in western Europe—to the new Glasgow housing association this year will offer the basis for substantial new capital investment and rebuilding, which will create even further demand for jobs in the construction sector. Our commitment to quality public services in schools, child care, community care and hospitals, as well as considerable expansion in our private sector, particularly in the financial sector, will inevitably lead to further job opportunities.
The challenges that we now face are to harness those opportunities for the benefit of Glasgow's citizens and to tackle the social problems that afflict so many of them. The opportunities have never been better and the rewards to our society for overcoming long-term non-employment would be enormous. The social justice argument is overwhelming and there is an equally strong economic argument.
178WH
According to the evidence given by Scottish Enterprise to the Scottish Affairs Select Committee at the end of last year, Scotland is the only country in Europe that is currently depopulating. It is estimated that by 2016 there will be 300,000 more people over 50 and 220,000 fewer people under 50 in the job market. If we do not improve the employment rate in Scotland's largest city, which has only 55 per cent, of its former population compared to the Scottish average of 71 per cent., the economy of the whole country—not just Glasgow—will suffer substantially.
Currently, only one in every two new jobs in Glasgow goes to a person who actually resides there. In substantial areas of the city, including my constituency, the majority of the adult population is not in work: people are either on the unemployment register, or they are on some other form of benefit such as incapacity benefit. In some areas, that group comprises as much as 70 per cent, of the total adult population. The Government's paper correctly states that many IB claimants have been out of the labour market for a substantial period, and many lack basic skills. Many in my city suffer from chaotic lifestyles and the majority lack confidence or have no knowledge of the current job market.
Many of those people were encouraged in past years, when employment was dropping sharply, to enter the IB system. In fact, a network of welfare officers was established with the principle of maximising income for those who were considered to have little prospect of reentering the job market. We need to do the opposite, by taking more deliberate and structured action to convince and encourage those claimants who do not suffer from serious and permanent disablement or incapacity—it was said earlier that such people are clearly in a different category—to rejoin the labour market within a relatively short time. Longer-term support and training are vital if we really want to get substantial numbers back to work. I fully support the Government's proposals to merge the Employment Service and the Benefits Agency into Jobcentre Plus in order to offer an increasingly personalised service and to target the hidden unemployed in such areas.
Many applicants still have a poor view of their local social security office. Unfortunately, the local drug dealers in my constituency often hang around outside the benefits office, and many people find the place intimidating. In addition, the agency is perceived—rightly or wrongly—to be more interested in investigating abuses than in positively assisting applicants into the most appropriate programme. That is why I encourage the Minister to ensure that any new proposals incorporate a close partnership with other agencies that do not suffer the stigma of being an enforcement organisation, as social security offices do.
Jobseekers are likely to be more relaxed when talking about an application or any problems with agencies such as the local enterprise network than they are when dealing with the social security office. I know that my local enterprise company has had considerable successes in getting people who have been non-employed or unemployed in the long-term back into work. It has supported them in their application, their job interview and, most important, during their first months of work, when their confidence can still be very fragile.

179WH
We must be sensitive to what is the appropriate support for those who suffer from addiction problems. I know that the Government have already made proposals for special money to be set aside for those suffering from drug abuse, but they must also consider the fact that a large number of people who claim I B also suffer from addiction problems.
The Green Paper examines the current monetary barriers to making work pay. The so-called housing benefit trap is often viewed as afflicting only London and the south of England, but hon. Members might be surprised to know that we in Glasgow suffer from exactly the same problem. We have the highest council tax rates in the United Kingdom—£1,140 for a band D property—and historically high social rents. At the same time, the largest group of workers in the city are in the £10,000 to £14,000 per annum wage bracket. The steep withdrawal of housing and council tax benefit that occurs when applicants move from unemployment to work continues to act as a significant barrier to seeking work. Most of those moving from incapacity benefit back into the workplace are likely to start in low-paid, often part-time jobs—the very jobs that are affected by the housing benefit trap.
That is why I commend the proposal for a substantial and distinct financial incentive for a good length of time to encourage the move back into work. We can encourage people, once they have got back into work, to seek further training so that they get out of very low-paid jobs into better-paid employment as their career progresses. To be frank, without such an incentive, there is little prospect of persuading many incapacity benefit claimants to make the move to work.
Finally, the Minister may be aware that throughout 2002, the Glasgow group of MPs engaged in a dialogue with the Department about the need for action and greater resources to tackle our city's employment problems. Unfortunately, after a promising start, we have yet to make any progress. None the less, I trust that the group's discussions with the Department for Work and Pensions will be much more productive in 2003. I also encourage her and her colleagues to visit the city and to support the efforts of our civic agencies, which are very keen to assist the Government's efforts to eliminate long-term non-employment and to end this blight on our city once and for all.
Sir Nicholas Winterton (in the Chair): I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her perseverance in the face of the hurdles that were placed in her way.
5.46 pm
Miss Anne Begg: I realise that time is moving on, so I will try to be brief. I was keen to participate in the debate because a week after the Select Committee on Work and Pensions announced an inquiry into getting disabled people into work, the Government published a Green Paper on the same subject. I like to think that our Select Committee has its finger on the pulse and that we are abreast of the issues of the day.
The Green Paper signals the Government's recognition of the fact that although other new deals, such as those for the young unemployed and for lone parents, have been extremely successful, the new deal for
180WH
disabled people has been less so. That is certainly one of the reasons why the Work and Pensions Committee thought the subject worth a more thorough investigation. It is a thorny issue, and a difficult one, and the Government must handle it very sensitively if they are to get it right.
The Government are absolutely right to stress the importance of work, and it is dreadful that I still have to say that in this forum. Work is important to people for many different reasons, not just because we need money to live. Some people work even though they actually earn less by doing so. There is also an issue of social inclusion: people are defined by their work. It is important that people feel that they have a place in society. That is not to demean those who do not have work, but most people on incapacity benefit lose out in so many aspects of society by not working.
Work can be good for disabled people. It can be therapeutic of itself; there is nothing like long hours spent in front of the television to make someone feel ill. Work is important, and it is sad that I have to emphasise that because some people still take a paternalistic attitude towards those with disabilities. They claim that the Government are being unfair and unreasonable in wanting to help those with disabilities into work. Most incapacity benefit claimants say that they want to work. Of course, many of them do not think of themselves as disabled. For example, they might have suffered a heart problem some years ago, which qualifies them for incapacity benefit, but they have become progressively more ill the longer they remain workless. Such people often suffer psychological problems because unemployment can cause illness or incapacity.
Nevertheless, it is not easy for people who are leaving incapacity benefit to start work. There are all the usual discrimination issues—the physical and attitudinal barriers.
Mr. Huw Edwards: On the issue of discrimination, has my hon. Friend seen early-day motion 477, which relates to the discrimination suffered by my constituent, Karen Godfrey? She was sacked before Christmas for no other reason than that she was disabled—apparently, she did not fit in for insurance reasons. It emerged that she had worked for WHSmith for five years for nothing but gift vouchers—she got £5-worth a week for working four hours a day. Does my hon. Friend not agree that it is excellent that the Government have established the Disability Rights Commission to investigate such cases?
Miss Begg: I certainly hope that the DRC takes up such cases. I well remember a time when I was regarded as a fire hazard simply because I deigned to go to the cinema in a wheelchair. Such attitudes are becoming things of the past, and it is sad to hear that the same health and safety regulations are still being used to push people out of work. There are other examples of such blatant discrimination, and I hope that the creation of the DRC will allow us establish the case law necessary to ensure that it becomes a thing of the past.
Some barriers to work are external to the person who is on IB or who has a disability, but others are often internal—they originate in the person themselves. If people have been workless for years, they inevitably

181WH
have low self-esteem. They may not know what they are capable of, and they will be frightened of the unknown. The Government must be sensitive to such issues. They must realise that it will not necessarily be easy to get someone through the Jobcentre Plus door to see what is available. That is why it is important that letters inviting IB claimants to Jobcentre Plus are as non-threatening and as supportive as possible.
Jobcentre Plus has changed things. Aberdeen is a pathfinder area for the scheme, and the atmosphere in jobcentres is totally different from anything seen in the old benefits offices, which my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Maryhill (Ann McKechin) described. Jobcentres are changing, but many people on IB do not know that, because they have not been over the threshold of a jobcentre for a long time. They need quite a bit of persuading that it is not like the old system and that their benefits are not under threat.
Let me give a good example of what is happening in Aberdeen. The local jobcentre manager, Bob Alexander, and I organised a business breakfast and a seminar for people working on disability issues at Jobcentre Plus. I also invited people from the voluntary sector who were trying to get disabled people into work. Ironically, the two sides had never met, but the morning was very informative. Although successful, it provided a salutary lesson: many of the people from the voluntary sector said that Jobcentre Plus was the last place they would advise their client group to visit. They, too, had not seen the changes, and they thought that jobcentres would be threatening and too difficult for their clients.
The radical aspect of the new deal for disabled people is the use of job brokers. I was glad to hear the Minister say that the advisers discretionary fund would be increased, but I know that job brokers are effective, because the new cleaner for MPs' offices in Aberdeen was recruited through that process. A job broker phoned my office manager, saying, "This woman is absolutely wonderful. You'd be daft not to employ her," and that is exactly what we found when she came for her interview. She is so happy to be back in work, having been out of work for more than five years. Her self-esteem has increased beyond measure, and she feels much better than she ever could have done had she remained on incapacity benefit. However, she put the letter back in the drawer three times before finally lifting the phone, and it took her something like two months to take up the original invitation.
The Government must use people such as Anne, our cleaner, to argue the case for their changes. The clients who had succeeded because of the new deal were undoubtedly the best speakers at the meeting that Bob Alexander and I arranged in Aberdeen to bring people from voluntary sector and Jobcentre Plus together. They brought a tear to our eyes, because they were superb at selling the importance of what they had achieved.
I realise that my time is up, although there is much more that I want to say. I hope that we will get another chance to debate helping people with disabilities and those on incapacity benefit into work. It is an important issue, and I commend the Government on making a really good start, but there is still a long way to go.
5.54 pm
David Cairns: I shall try to condense my remarks into the briefest possible time. I warmly congratulate the Government on introducing the Green Paper. It has become more necessary as unemployment has fallen and the issue has emerged from beneath the receding waters of unemployment. Unemployment in my constituency has fallen from more than 20 per cent, in the mid-1980s to about 4.5 per cent., but, at the same time, the number of economically inactive people has risen to a staggering and shameful 39 per cent. Two in five adults of working age are therefore neither in work nor looking for work. That is the scale of the challenge that we face.
I was heartened to see the Government outline the five barriers that stand in people's way in returning to work. Looking at the skills and training aspects of Jobcentre Plus, may I make a special plea? Advisers with specialist skills include those who are specially trained to deal with people with brain and head injuries. Often, such people do not show that very much is wrong with them, but the relapsing nature of the illness means that specialist knowledge is required. I hope that the Minister can give us some advice on that,
A small caveat about the Green Paper is that it could contain a little more on rehabilitation. Only two references are made to it: one in the context of solicitors and personal injury claims, and a small reference in an annexe. Yet certain types of rehabilitation are absolutely central if people in my constituency who come from an industrial heritage and have industrial injuries are to get certain types of work. When the disabilities Bill is introduced—I appreciate that this issue is largely the responsibility of the Department of Health in England and Wales, and the Scottish Executive north of the border—close working will be required between the Minister's Department, the Department of Health and Malcolm Chisholm, the Minister for Health and Community Care north of the border. I therefore repeat the plea that the hon. Member for Daventry (Mr. Boswell) kindly made.
Finally, if the Minister is planning to site one of the pilot areas in Scotland, I make the plea that it covers Inverclyde, given its 39 per cent. economic inactivity rate.
5.57 pm
Paul Holmes: The Liberal Democrats welcome the stated principles behind the consultation paper and many of the ideas that arise out of those principles. The 2.7 million people on incapacity benefit in this country represent a figure only slightly above the equivalent numbers in most of Europe, and 40 per cent, of such people already say in Government and disability organisation surveys that they want to return to work if the obstacles to doing so can be removed.
There are many measures proposed in the Green Paper that could do much to ease the path back into work, such as increased financial incentives to return to work, and a better support and referral framework. A more integrated approach to getting people back into work is needed. Use of the NHS, social services, and so forth to offer the greatest opportunity for work is vital.
We fully support the creation of an environment in which as many employers as possible are managing health at work actively and positively. I welcome the

183WH
comments of the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions in Disability Now that to exhort employers to do more and to deploy the necessary legislation are key elements of change.
Although there is much to welcome, many concerns remain. Compulsory, work-focused interviews backed by the threat of benefit loss for those who claim disability benefits are not the best way to help those who are able back into work. It seems strange that only months after the nationwide roll-out of the new deal for disabled people, the Government chose to introduce the compulsory interviews that are integral to the Green Paper. The Government have said that the aim of the new compulsory interviews is to help the 750,000 disabled people who want to find jobs. The new deal for disabled people appears to have the same objective, although it is still voluntary. If the Government are so convinced that the reason that those on incapacity benefit who want to get a job are being put off is lack of support, skills and knowledge, will the new deal for disabled people provide that service while not threatening people with withdrawal of benefits for missing interviews?
Initially, the Government proposals talk sensibly of focusing on new claimants only. Experience shows that, once people have become long-term sick and unemployed, it is much harder for them to get back into work for all sorts of reasons, such as loss of skills, loss of confidence, and so forth. The Trojan horse is on page 39 of the Green Paper, "Pathways to work: Helping people into employment". It states:
"In due course, the Government will consider whether … to extend a requirement to attend work-focused interviews to some existing recipients of incapacity benefits … as well."
I still do not understand the Government's reluctance to focus their initial efforts in respect of long-term benefit claimants on the 40 per cent, who, in Government and disability organisation surveys, repeatedly say that they positively want to work if help is provided and obstacles are removed.
The work-focused interview has not proven itself to be as successful as parts of the Green Paper suggest. A Department for Work and Pensions research report on the ONE service leads to some conclusions on that—
6 pm
Sitting suspended for a Division in the House.
6.10 pm
On resuming—
Paul Holmes: A Department for Work and Pensions research report on the ONE service concluded that there was no evidence that participation in ONE had increased labour market activity among sick and disabled clients. A new study of the Government flagship disabled employment scheme showed that between July 2001 and September 2002, only 1,400 disabled people worked for longer than six months after getting help. Only 6,099 were helped into any kind of work at all, which is far short of the target of 90,000 people in jobs over a three-year period—in fact, just 5 per cent, of those involved. Regrettably, due to a
184WH
technical hitch, those embarrassing figures failed to appear on the Department for Work and Pensions website alongside other figures on new deal schemes, and they had to be reported later in Disability Now.
As happens with many of the Government's proposals and schemes to get people back to work, there is concern from groups such as UnumProvident, which has worked in the field for 30 years, about the focus on merely getting people into work because focus is needed on the long-term aspects of keeping disabled people in work. Retention in employment is a critical challenge.
Disability groups such as the Shaw Trust argue that the key lesson to be learned from the weakness of the current approach through Jobcentre Plus is that employment interviews and work placements cannot be provided for disabled people by the same people who are responsible for monitoring their benefits. Only this afternoon at a seminar on welfare to work that was held in this building, the Shaw Trust, Remploy and speakers from two private sector firms—WTCS and Work Directions—all disagreed strongly with the proposals in the Green Paper on that issue. The same groups questioned the need for six Government pilots on top of the five previous ones. Their schemes, which are based on intensive work with voluntary participants, seem to have higher success rates than the general figures quoted by the Government.
Maria Eagle: The hon. Gentleman has just criticised the new deal for disabled people for not achieving the high level of job sustainability that we had all hoped for. That is a voluntary project. Does he think that that might be one of the reasons why?
Paul Holmes: The groups that I mentioned—two private sector, one voluntary and one public—all detailed success rates this afternoon of between 30 and 40 per cent., which are higher than the low overall figures of Government projects. The groups argued specifically that the key reason for the success of their projects compared with the failures of the whole scheme was because they work with volunteers and provide intensive support.
If there are to be further pilots on top of the existing five schemes—three have reported, one is under way and one has not even started—the Minister could do worse than looking at the pilot in my constituency of Chesterfield. The chamber of commerce is running the Power project, which does excellent work by empowering those with disabilities who want to prepare to return to work.
A further concern is the Government's target-setting culture, although that does not mean public or headline targets in this case, unlike for education. Mencap reported that the ONE areas were given targets to move people off benefits and into work. That is a worry because target setting could result in personal advisers pressurising people into unsuitable work although circumstances dictate that that is not the best opinion, but the easiest option. A Mencap report said:
"Mencap is aware that the One service had targets to move people off benefits and into work. Mencap would caution against internal targets such as the number of interviews conducted in a week by a personal adviser or a target of a specified number of people entering work".

185WH
The same issues repeatedly arise with SchlumbergerSema, which admitted, when questioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Northavon (Mr. Webb) and me, that its financial contracts with the Government and its general practitioners could represent a financial incentive to push through the maximum number of client assessments in the shortest possible time in order to maximise profits and bonuses, although this was not necessarily in the interests of the people being assessed.
I have received many letters from constituents calling into question the quality of the personal capability assessments conducted by SchlumbergerSema GPs. Can we therefore expect the company to increase the speed of assessment, as the Government have stated it should? Would that result in better assessments? The Government may be premature in their reliance on the competency of SchlumbergerSema to meet its current contractual obligations without increasing the pressure even more.
Disability organisations have other concerns about the proposals to help disabled people into work—specifically the failure properly to address systematic discrimination in the labour market. It is highly unlikely that work-focused interviews will fully meet their potential in helping disabled people into employment while the obstacles of employer discrimination and inaccessibility remain in place.
In the Green Paper, the Government admit that financial incentives are a huge obstacle to people attempting to get back into the world of work. It says that many people on incapacity benefit will gain only a small amount by getting a job and some may end up worse off. If the Government know that employment can result in the disabled receiving less income than they would from the many confusing benefits that are available to them, how can they be expected to move off benefits and into employment? Although the Green Paper proposals may be successful in gaining employment for some, no contingency measures are proposed in case employees find that they cannot cope with the job or employers discover that they did not realise what they were taking on.
Although the Government's disabled persons tax credit allows a combination of work and benefit, the minimum requirement of 16 hours work a week means that people on IB who can work for fewer than 16 hours a week, or who can work one week but not the next—for example, a multiple sclerosis sufferer may need to work one week in two—are ignored. Mencap and UnumProvident made the same point in their responses to the Green Paper. The Liberal Democrat suggestion of a partial capacity benefit would better address the situation, as it would encourage disabled people to do varying amounts of paid work without fear of becoming ineligible for benefit.
The plethora of benefits can appear overly complex and provide strong disincentives for disabled people to look for work, and they are in need of radical reform. It is similar to the complexity of the minimum income guarantee and the replacement pension tax credits—a third of eligible pensioners do not claim, partly because of the sheer complexity of the provisions.
186WH
The Government admit that employers are reluctant to employ older workers. That will be addressed by the implementation of age discrimination legislation, but it will not happen until 2006. If the Government are serious about addressing the fact that just under half of those claiming the benefit are aged 50 or over, it is nonsensical to wait for so many years before beginning to remove one of the obstacles to getting people off incapacity benefit and back to work. The Liberal Democrats would introduce that as soon as possible, as part of a single unified equality Act.
The Government are again dragging their heels on the question of a disability Act, with their otherwise welcome announcement yesterday that they would introduce a draft Bill. The Liberal Democrats and nongovernmental organisations such as the Disability Rights Commission have campaigned for such a move as a matter of urgency for some time and it was widely expected that the Government would include the legislation in the last Queen's Speech, if not the previous one. The vague promise to legislate later in this Parliament means that the long-awaited disability Bill could be squeezed out once again as the next general election approaches. How much better it would be if that lengthy process had started last year or the year before.
It is essential that disabled people should have full and equal rights before the Government proceed with their aim of establishing a single equality commission. That is the only way to remove many of the obstacles to the employment of disabled people that the Government describe in the document.
I sum up by saying that Liberal Democrats support the stated principles in the consultation paper, in that barriers to work for those claiming IB should be removed. However, we have doubts about the value of compulsory work-focused interviews supported by the threat of benefit penalties. We oppose the target-setting culture that pressures those involved into making unsuitable and hasty decisions in order to meet Government targets or gain maximum financial bonuses. We believe that removing the remaining legal areas of discrimination against disabled people is a more urgent priority, and that the Government should utilise the expertise of disability groups more.
I hope that the Green Paper is a genuine consultation exercise, but I note the comments of the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions in the current issue of "Disability Now". He says:
"I would welcome the responses to the document. However, we have thought hard about the proposals and feel that this is the direction we should be moving in."
If the Government have already decided to discount the views of the voluntary and private sector organizations—not forgetting R employ, the experts in such matters—which all oppose compulsory interviews and benefit sanctions, that suggests that our deliberations could be a waste of time.
6.19 pm
Maria Eagle: I shall do my best to respond to the points that have been made in the debate as speedily as I can, so that we are not kept too long from our trains and so on. I commend most hon. Members today for the constructive way in which they have conducted the

187WH
debate and on how they have engaged with the issues set out in the Green Paper. All of us in the House are concerned about such matters and we want progress to be made. The Government's consultation processes are always genuine and we welcome all ideas, because we want to find out what works.
There has not been as much progress as we would have wished in the past few years because such steps are difficult to take, as my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Miss Begg) said, and because we do not know what works. Had previous Governments attempted to get those on incapacity benefit and sickness and disability benefits back into work, we would have a better idea of what policy will work. We are feeling our way. We should not be condemned and criticised for that. Some of the constructive criticism that we have received today from some hon. Members has been positive, but I do not believe that churlish negativity, which we have also heard, helps.
Paul Holmes: Will the Minister give way?
Maria Eagle: I shall give way because I was referring to the hon. Gentleman's contribution to the debate.
Paul Holmes: Will the Minister confirm that she has criticised my direct quotes from the Shaw Trust, Remploy and two private sector training organisations, all of which have a proven track record in such matters?
Maria Eagle: I am criticising the hon. Gentleman's tone and the content of his remarks, not anything that has been said by the providers or organisations to which he has referred. I have not heard what they said. He may not have represented their views in quite the way that they would have wanted. The Shaw Trust and other organisations that he described as experts in such matters operate the new deal for disabled people on our behalf. It is not sensible for him to commend them on the one hand, and criticise the new deal for disabled people on the other. Those organisations provide such services for us. It is more sensible to be constructive than to forget the way in which this Chamber tends to operate, which is more calm and sensible than other parliamentary debates.
The hon. Member for Daventry (Mr. Boswell) referred to the performance of the new deal for disabled people. Other hon. Members have also drawn attention to it, perhaps in a more negative way. At present, there have been almost 8,000 job entries, but a smaller number of sustained job entries. That is partly because the national roll-out is only 18 months old and many job brokers are still finding their way. It is not easy. Job brokers have different approaches throughout the country and some work better than others.
The Shaw Trust to which the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Paul Holmes) referred has a good record in delivering job broker services, as do some of our in-house providers. There is not a monopoly of good sense and experience in the public, private or voluntary sector. We must learn and be constructive across the piece to find out what works. The Department has been taking steps to improve job broker performance and achieve a better spread of success throughout the different providers. One of the downsides of bringing in many
188WH
providers in different parts of the country is that we could start off with a variable performance. We are engaging constructively with the job brokers to improve the performance of those who have not done so well by spreading best practice from those who have. That is a good way forward.
The hon. Member for Daventry referred also to targets and expressed his worry that they would create problems. We do not have set targets of the number of people whom we want to take off incapacity benefit. That would be inappropriate. We have general targets to narrow the gap between the level of participation in the labour market of the working age population in general and disabled people, but those are positive targets. We are not providing incentives to local Jobcentre Plus staff to get so many people off benefits.
The hon. Gentleman said that he had five concerns. The first was adequate benefit flexibility, which he suggested required further development. Adequate benefit flexibility is easy to say, but it is difficult to achieve, partly because of the complex nature of our benefit system and also because many benefits are enshrined in legislation and are, therefore, not easy to change. Many of our benefits, including incapacity benefit and some working age benefits, must be sufficiently comprehensive to be applied in a wide range of circumstances. For example, a benefit might apply to everyone of working age. It can be difficult, therefore, to introduce the sort of flexibility that one would like to see for a particular group of individuals without creating all sorts of loopholes and potential for fraud. Those are the difficulties in promoting benefit flexibility, but I can tell the hon. Gentleman that we are always considering what can he done. The fact that we have introduced some flexibilities, which are well regarded by those who know about them, is proof of the fact that we want to make progress in the area.
The hon. Gentleman also called for rigorous evaluation of the pilot activity, unlike the hon. Member for Chesterfield, who does not seem to believe in evaluation. There will be a comprehensive evaluation programme, combining both qualitative and quantitative elements, with the aim of detecting the impact of any package of changes that we pilot on improving rates of return to work among IB clientele. That has not often been tried in the past. The statistical significance of interventions can be difficult to calculate and the methodology for evaluation can be difficult. We are committed to rigorous evaluation of the pilot activity. We want to find out what works, and only when we have done that and are convinced that it will make a difference will we actually spread the practice more widely.
The hon. Gentleman also referred to attitudes among the business community and social partners. He is right about that. The reference by my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (Mr. Edwards) to his constituent, Karen Godfrey, illustrated just how far we still have to go in respect of attitudes in society. The idea of expecting someone to work for vouchers that can be spent only where the person works, instead of a wage, was outlawed by the Truck Act 1831 and the Wages Act 1986—although, apparently, not at WH Smith, if the worker is disabled. That sort of practice must be

189WH
stamped out. I very much hope that the Disability Rights Commission will do its utmost to take up such cases.
Mr. Boswell: I have not: looked at the details of that case since the hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. Edwards) referred to it earlier this evening, but I was under the impression, from a communication that I received some days ago from a colleague, that it had been sorted out. I do not condone the decisions that were taken and entirely agree that it should never have happened, but the important point is that a framework now exists for dealing with such a case, as well as a readiness on the part of management and that of the Disability Rights Commission, to ensure that such practice is stamped out.
Maria Eagle: I hope that that is the case.
Mr. Edwards: I have heard from the managing director of WH Smith, who has condemned the case. That is not company policy and was an isolated incident. Nevertheless, it constituted discrimination and is being investigated.
Maria Eagle: I need not say any more on that, except to add that it indicates why we need the law to back up whatever we try to do by exhortation.
The hon. Member for Daventry made some references to advocacy and better pathways, all of which I agree with. We need to work on that.
My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Maryhill (Ann McKechin) made some interesting points about Glasgow, indicating that, like many cities, it has particular problems, but also illustrating powerfully that it seems to have more of a problem than some comparable cities. That illustrates how thorny, deep-seated and complicated the issue is; clearly, it has cultural aspects.
My hon. Friend was able to give us some hope that Glasgow is on its way back in terms of regeneration. She also gave us some good news about falling unemployment. I agree with her that if we got to where we are by way of a certain culture and welfare benefits advice that told people that they were incapable, we must reverse that. I welcome her comments about the Green Paper, because we are trying to make a cultural change. I was in Glasgow recently to visit the Royal Strathclyde Blindcraft factory. I would be happy to come back to visit that fine city at any time at my hon. Friend's invitation.
My hon. Friend also made some points about the culture of social security offices, and my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South stressed how different Jobcentre Plus offices are. The Glasgow Jobcentre Plus roll-out will start this April, and my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Maryhill, her constituents and colleagues will then see the massive difference between Jobcentre Plus and social security offices.
190WH
My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South made an extremely valuable contribution, and clearly has a passionate approach to the issue. Who better than my hon. Friend to tell us the truth of the matter from the other side of the fence? She is passionately in favour of making sure that disabled people can work, and I agree with her. I also agree with her about targets; I have replied to what the hon. Member for Daventry said on the subject. We do not have targets for getting certain numbers of people off the benefit. That is not how we are dealing with the issue. I also agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South that the new deal for disabled people works when people pluck up the courage to go along to the Jobcentre Plus.
I agree that people who have gone through the process and gained employment are by far the best advocates of the quality of the system. I often speak at conferences and events about the new deal for disabled people. Usually, my speech is irrelevant, because someone will have stood up and spoken about their personal experience, and that is much more powerful than anything that I, as a Whitehall Minister, might say. Instead of suggesting that I know the way forward, it is much better to get someone who has gone through the process and succeeded to stand up and say so—they are much better advocates that I am.
My hon. Friend the Member for Greenock and Inverclyde (David Cairns) clearly wants a pilot, and I have twigged that he would like one in his area. I shall see what I can do, as consideration of such matters is ongoing. However, I cannot promise him anything, so I hope that he will not take too much encouragement from what I say. It is absolutely true that we must consider and tackle the fact that almost 39 per cent, of his constituents are economically inactive.
The hon. Member for Chesterfield, who speaks for the Liberal Democrats, made a number of points that I shall take up briefly. I do not agree that compulsory work-focused interviews are not the way forward. One of the problems with voluntary schemes such as the new deal for disabled people is that getting people to come along to a Jobcentre Plus in the first place can be a big barrier. I agree that it would be a major concern if further participation beyond the first contact were compulsory; some of his points might then have some validity. However, I do not believe that it is negative to encourage those who are just coming on to the benefit to receive the intensive help by saying that there will be a sanction. That is one of the ways in which we can make sure that we offer help to those who most require it.
The hon. Gentleman also said that it would be sensible to focus on those claimants who want to go back to work. We have survey evidence on numbers, but we do not know who all the claimants are. We sent out letters about the new deal for disabled people in respect of the stock of IB claimants, and one reason why there have been only 8,000 "outputs" of sustained employment is that not everyone comes forward. One reason for that is the voluntary nature of the scheme. We need to try different approaches. I am very much in favour of the compulsory element if the support that is then offered is not coercive or backed up by targets to

191WH
get numbers of people off benefit. I believe that that is a perfectly defensible and sensible way of approaching the matter.
It seems that the hon. Member for Chesterfield is against pilots. I do not believe that it is possible, on this complex issue, to devise a system that will work for our diverse, different and complex set of clients without rigorous evaluation and pilots. It would be easy for us, with our prejudices, to sit down and discuss what we think would do the job, and then spread that across the country. In respect of what is a difficult problem, we should try out different approaches, do our best to find out what will work and spread that good practice around the country.
I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman's comments on our alleged failure to address discrimination against disabled people. When the Government took office, the only thing that was unlawful was direct discrimination against disabled people in employment, in large firms and in service provision. Those were the only aspects of the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 to have been implemented. There were other provisions, but they had not then been commenced. If, by the end of this Parliament, we can meet the commitments that we have made, including the Bill that was announced yesterday, discrimination against disabled people in employment and in service provision will be completely outlawed. We shall have taken major steps to get rid of discrimination against disabled people in every part of society. If we can achieve that, it will be the biggest step forward in disability rights that the country has ever seen. Since the announcement yesterday, I have had a good reaction from many members of the disability lobby, who can be cynical sometimes, although one understands why. I am determined to make sure that we carry through that commitment, notwithstanding the general cynicism and negativity of the Liberal Democrats.
Sir Nicholas Winterton (in the Chair): From the Chair, I thank the Minister for her reply and congratulate hon. Members who have taken part for the physical and mental stamina necessitated by our experiences today.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at twenty-four minutes to Seven o'clock.

Question Not Answered Orally

  Obesity
  12. Mr. Hopkins: What plans the Government have to tackle obesity among young people through the promotion of sport. [91816]
  Jacqui Smith: We already have in place major cross-Government programmes of work to increase levels of physical activity among children and young people. The Departments for Culture, Media and Sport and for Education and Skills are investing £459 million to transform physical education, school sport and club links over the next three years. The funding will help deliver a joint DFES/DCMS public service agreement target to enhance sports opportunities for five to 16-year-olds by increasing the percentage of children who spend at least two hours a week on high quality PE and school sport—in and beyond the curriculum—to 75 per cent. by 2006.
  At a community level, the Department is setting up a new programme of local exercise action pilots led by primary care trusts to test out different approaches to increase access to physical activity among priority groups, including children and young people.