Sitting of 27 January 2005

Preamble
The House met at eleven of the clock (Prayers having been read earlier at the Judicial Sitting by the Lord Bishop of Manchester ): The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES on the Woolsack.

EU: Referendum on Constitution
Lord Howell of Guildford Lord Howell of Guildford asked Her Majesty's Government:
What is the earliest possible date, following Royal Assent to a Bill providing for a referendum on the proposed new European Union constitution, for that referendum to be held, taking into account the necessary preparations and administrative arrangements required.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean): My Lords, following Royal Assent to a Bill providing for a referendum, secondary legislation will be required to set the detailed rules under which any referendum in future will be held. Further secondary legislation will be needed to cover the detailed rules for this specific referendum, plus further legislation extending the referendum provisions to Gibraltar. Other issues that affect the period between Royal Assent and a referendum, including the referendum period itself, are still under consideration and will be matters for parliamentary decision.
Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that rather informative and helpful reply. Whether one believes that this massive new constitution is good for the United Kingdom and the future of Europe or bad for them—I admit that I am in the latter camp, like most people—will the Minister at least reassure us, after what she said, that there is no question of choosing a date for the referendum that mixes it up with national or local elections in any way, because to do so would be flouting the advice of the independent Electoral Commission?
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I am very glad that the noble Lord found it informative; the question of what all the secondary legislation covered certainly took some getting to grips with. The noble Lord's views on the advisability or otherwise of the constitution will not come as a surprise to any of us, but I hope that my answer to his last point will not be a surprise either. The Government will of course take consideration of the advice that is offered by the independent commission.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, will my noble friend the Minister give me a commitment that in order to combat ignorance and ensure an informed
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debate before a referendum, the Government will produce factual information on the constitutional treaty to be delivered to all households?
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, factual information is available to your Lordships. There is the factual information in the Guide to the European Union which covers how the EU works and what the proposed constitution says; that is currently out in two versions. I can also tell your Lordships that the Foreign Office has produced an estimable document which deals with the question of where the individual elements for this constitutional treaty come from in terms of previous treaties. That is an undertaking that I made previously in this House. Fifty copies of this document are available in the Printed Paper Office, so your Lordships had better rush to get them, though further copies will be available in Command Paper form very shortly. As to whether this document will go to individual households, looking at its volume, I rather doubt it. The question of what will go to individual households is still a matter for discussion among my right honourable and honourable friends.
Lord Maclennan of Rogart: My Lords, bearing in mind the length and complexity of the treaty which is necessary to ensure that actions taken by Union institutions are not the arbitrary exercise of power but are in accordance with rules predetermined and pre-agreed by the member states of the Union, do the Government recognise that voters in the referendum will require time to assimilate the kind of information that the Government are making available and to judge not only whether the document is appropriate to achieve those predictable ends but also what would be the consequences for this country and for the European Union of Britain seeking to become an offshore island?
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I agree with what the noble Lord has said. I think that there is still a great deal of confusion about this constitutional treaty. There has to be consultation on the secondary legislation—three parts of it, to which I referred when answering the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford. That consultation will be not only with interested parties here but with, for example, the Government of Gibraltar on their secondary legislation. There is then the question, of course, of the referendum period itself; that is, the phase during which the Electoral Commission receives applications from organisations which want to be designated as official "Yes" or "No" campaigns.
There is also the crucial question, as the noble Lord rightly says, of time for ordinary citizens to consider what they believe is good for this country. It is very important that people have the opportunity to look at some of the myths that are around and see that many of them—one of which was mentioned in the Sun newspaper this morning, about the primacy of EU

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legislation being introduced by this Bill—has in fact been the case since the 1972 Act. It is a popular myth. I hope that it will be dispelled.
Lord Slynn of Hadley: My Lords, since the constitutional treaty repeats a great part of what is already in the Treaty of Rome as amended from time to time, will the Minister say whether people are going to be told with reasonable clarity what are the new matters on which attention should really be focused?
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, yes; I think that that is an important factor. But in addressing the important factor of what is really new in this treaty, we also need to deal with some of what I have just described as the popular myths that have unfortunately taken root and are being peddled by some of our excellent press in this country as newly introduced measures under this treaty, which they most certainly are not.
Lord Howe of Aberavon: My Lords, in the light of the noble Baroness's last sentence, and given that continued effective membership of the European Union is an objective loudly proclaimed by the leadership of every major party in this House, can she tell us what is the earliest date on which we might expect the Prime Minister and his colleagues in government to start expounding the merits and value of that continuing membership as vigorously as they should be doing?
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I agree that we all have rather different interpretations of what we mean by "effective membership". I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Howell, wants us to be effective members, and so do I, but our interpretations of what that really means in fact are very different. The implication of the question asked by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe of Aberavon, is that the Prime Minister has not begun to state very clearly what the position of the Labour Party—the party of government at the moment—is on this question. I believe that the Prime Minister has stated that very clearly. I believe that the question needs to be addressed with energy and vigour. In your Lordships' House, while I am able to do so at the Dispatch Box, I shall do so.
Lord Harrison: My Lords, does my noble friend believe that decision-making will become more bureaucratic and time consuming if this constitution is not ratified by the 25 countries of the European Union?
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, yes, I believe that that is the case. I can hear some grumbling from the Benches opposite. One of the reasons why we need this constitution is that we are currently running on provisions that were drawn up originally for a group of six which then expanded, as we know, at various points over the years. We now have a group of 25—it may expand even further—but are still running on provisions that have not been fundamentally altered in that respect.
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This constitutional treaty allows us to address those issues and to dispatch the business of the Community, if it is passed, in a far better way than at the moment.
Lord Dykes: My Lords—
Lord Davies of Oldham: I am sorry, my Lords; we need to move on.

Firearms Database
11.8 a.m.
Lord Corbett of Castle Vale Lord Corbett of Castle Vale asked Her Majesty's Government:
When, and at what total cost to public funds, they plan to make the national firearms database fully operational.
The Minister of State, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (Lord Rooker): My Lords, as my noble friend is aware, it was necessary to suspend the roll-out of the programme of the national firearms licensing management system as a result of a number of technical difficulties that came to light during piloting of the system last year. Most of those have now been successfully resolved, including one of the key issues, which was the inability to print the certificate. The question of slow running is still being investigated. Once that has been resolved, a new roll-out schedule will be negotiated with individual forces. The total cost of the project is expected to be about £6.2 million.
Lord Corbett of Castle Vale: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for giving the latest instalment in this sorry saga. Given rising gun crime, is it not a continuing risk to public safety that after seven years the Association of Chief Police Officers and the Home Office still do not have a national firearms database up and running, as Parliament decided? Why, after spending these millions of pounds on what looks like another IT fiasco in Whitehall, are we still without a protective database of this kind? Will the Minister confirm that the Metropolitan Police and Lancashire Constabulary are to run a joint pilot scheme in April and May, following a pilot scheme last year, which, as he reminded the House, revealed that the certificates could not be printed and that in any event the scheme ran far too slowly to be of any effective use to the police?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, we are trying to avoid a computer fiasco—plenty of examples of such fiascos exist that we all know about. We will not roll out and run the system until we are confident that it will work. It would not serve any purpose trying to roll out a system if the printing were slow. I understand that the problem with regard to that slowness arises in the individual police networks, not in the lines from Hendon where the base is situated.
As regards a pilot, I am not aware that Lancashire Constabulary and the Metropolitan Police are due to undertake another pilot. However, they were the pilot

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authorities in July 2004 when serious technical problems arose that stopped the roll-out as planned. Nevertheless, I would want to ensure that we get the system right before it is put into operation. Therefore, further piloting may occur. An audit of the technical system is being conducted. That should finish by the end of this month and be reported on. I invite my noble friend and other noble Lords to chase me and the Home Office on this matter. Our expectation is that we will probably be ready for roll-out by July this summer. However, that is an expectation; it is not a firm commitment.
Lord Marlesford: My Lords, does the Minister understand how important it is to get this system up and running, given that it is seven years since Parliament said that it was necessary, and given the endless statements on the matter by Ministers in this House, including the noble Lord and the noble Baroness, Lady Scotland? The inability of the Home Office to get under a million people with firearms certificates on to a single computer gives one no confidence that the Home Office has the competence to introduce an identity card scheme which would cover 60 million people.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I say in answer to the supplementary question of my noble friend Lord Corbett that the Met and Lancashire Constabulary will continue to be involved in the pilot; in other words, it is a continuous pilot. They were involved in the pilot last year and they will continue to be involved in it.
I say to the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, that the situation is incredibly frustrating. I have said to Home Office officials, "Heaven forbid that one serious incident such as has occurred in the past should happen before this scheme is rolled out. If it does, the roof will fall in on someone somewhere". However, I make clear that this system will not constitute a cast iron guarantee of preventing such difficulties.
I also say to the noble Lord that this system involves rather more than just putting 800,000 people on a register. I accept that that was what was asked for originally. If that were all that was planned, it would have been done a long time ago. However, that would not serve the purpose of the scheme. That is why the costs have gone up from the original estimate. We plan to introduce a much more sophisticated operation in which all 43 police forces in England and Wales and those in Scotland would be able to search the system for information on anyone who has applied for a firearms certificate, been refused one or whatever. It is not simply a matter of drawing up a list of 800,000 people who have firearms certificates; the system is rather more complicated than that because a simple list would not help to prevent tragedies such as have occurred in the past.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, is not my noble friend right to continue pursuing this matter, not least, as he has said today, to draw the House's attention to the problems that we will face in believing that the Home Office is capable of delivering a robust
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ID card system? Surely there is a direct read-across from the answer the Minister has just given. The latter would be an even more sophisticated system that would require easy and proper access to information that had been properly stored. How will the Government persuade us that they will meet one of the five tests that we on these Benches will wish to see satisfied before the Identity Cards Bill can have a fair passage?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I refer to what is behind some of the questions—I do not impugn what anyone has said—namely, that the Home Office perhaps did not like the policy that we are discussing. However, as was said to me this morning, if the Home Office had wanted to block it, that could have been done much more easily, much more cheaply and at a much earlier point than dragging the situation out for seven years. In other words, there is a commitment in the Home Office to get this system up and running. I want this House to pursue Ministers, and Ministers to pursue officials, on the matter.
I am not involved in the detail of the Identity Cards Bill but one of the key lessons as regards other IT systems—I was involved in only one such system when I was at MAFF—and previous inquiries undertaken throughout Whitehall by the Public Accounts Committee, is that once you set up a system and put an operation in place, you should not change it while you are building the system. If you do, it will not deliver what you originally intended. Loads of people are always approaching Ministers and saying, "We can make this a lot better than you originally planned. We can do lots of other work on it". The minute you start to do that, the costs go through the roof and you do not deliver what you originally intended. You need to maintain very tight control and say, "This is what we want to do. Let us make that work and only when that is working successfully should we start thinking about expanding it". That is the lesson to be learnt from Whitehall IT catastrophes that have occurred under governments of both parties.
Lord McNally: My Lords, the Minister wants us to take a continuing interest in this matter. I assure him that with the noble Lords, Lord Corbett and Lord Marlesford, firmly gripping each ankle there is no likelihood that it will disappear from our agenda. Has the Home Office any other initiatives as regards the root problem which has become much worse during the eight years that we have waited for the system—gun ownership and gun crime—and which this register was supposed to counterbalance?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, there has been an overall increase in the level of gun crime. In 2003–04 the increase was less than 1 per cent. The number of offences has risen each year since 1997–98. However, the 2003–04 rise is the smallest in that period. The figures also show a decrease of 7 per cent in the use of hand guns in the period 2002–03. Excluding air weapons, gun crime as a proportion of recorded crime has remained fairly static at about 0.17 per cent. We

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are about fourteenth or fifteenth in the league of countries for firearms homicide. It is a very serious matter even though it comprises a very small part of overall crime. It needs to be tackled very seriously. Getting the national database up and running is part of tackling it.

Criminal Justice Act 2003: Retrials
11.17a.m.
Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate asked Her Majesty's Government:
When the provisions of Part 10 ("Retrial for Serious Offences") of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 will be brought into effect.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal (The Minister of State, Home Office): My Lords, the provisions relating to retrials for serious offences in England and Wales will be announced as soon as possible.
Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that helpful reply. This Question is absolutely coincidental to the previous Question, which also dealt with delay. I should declare an interest: as long ago as 1997, as president of the Police Superintendents' Association, I campaigned for a change in the law on double jeopardy. More recently, I accompanied Mrs Anne Ming, the mother of a murder victim in Teesside, who was supportive of a change in the law to make it retrospective. Does the Minister agree that in cases of murder, where there has been a perverse acquittal and subsequently there is found to be new and compelling evidence, it is important that the retrial takes place speedily, not least for the closure that is required by the victim's relatives but also because it would put right a substantial miscarriage of justice?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I agree with my noble friend on the importance of retrials for serious offences in appropriate cases. For that reason, we introduced the provisions of Part 10 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003. I absolutely agree with my noble friend that these issues should be undertaken as speedily as is reasonably practicable.
Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, are there any cases where there is an application to be made with the consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions for an acquittal to be reviewed by the Court of Appeal? How many are there and what is the need for these provisions?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I do not have those precise figures, but the noble Lord will remember that when we debated these issues extensively during the passage of the Criminal Justice Act, the need for such provisions was clearly laid out
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and the House, in its wisdom, together with the other place, decided that the provisions were merited. Nothing has changed since that time.
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: My Lords, what was the cause of the delay in implementing them?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, there has been a great deal of work in preparation, both in relation to the guidance and to the rules. I would very much have liked to come to your Lordships' House today with a precise date. Indeed, my brief says three things: "as soon as possible", "on 23 March" and "on 4 April". I am not able to pick which and, therefore, I say to your Lordships, "as soon as possible".
Lord Dholakia: My Lords, can the Minister indicate the number of serious cases that are being re-examined by the police and does the Stephen Lawrence case form part of those investigations?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I am unable to give the noble Lord the answer he seeks, but these provisions have been long awaited by a number of families, not least those cases where the defendant has been acquitted and subsequent DNA material and other fairly convincing material indicates that the acquittal may not have been sound. For those families, I cannot over-emphasise how much they have longed for these provisions. So, perhaps I may assure the House that we very much understand why we need to inject a degree of urgency and that I have strained every muscle to be able to come to your Lordships' House today to announce a date. It is a matter of great frustration to me that I am not able to say the date which I would most like to pick. But I assure your Lordships that I shall continue in my endeavours.
Lord Richard: My Lords, my noble friend will know that "as soon as possible" is capable of having a multitude of meanings. It could mean a distant or a near prospect. Do I understand from the comments of my noble friend today that "as soon as possible" means "spring"?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, your Lordships can be absolutely sure that it will be spring.

Oxford University
11.22 a.m.
Baroness Morris of Bolton Baroness Morris of Bolton asked Her Majesty's Government:
What is their response to the reported decision of Oxford University to reduce the number of United Kingdom students over the next five years in favour of overseas students.
Lord Triesman: My Lords, as an independent university, it is for Oxford to decide its own academic strategy. I understand that it proposes an overall

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growth rate in student numbers of 1.5 per cent a year, within which there will be a significant expansion of opportunity for United Kingdom students at graduate level, which in its view should more than compensate for the modest reduction in undergraduate numbers.
Baroness Morris of Bolton: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply, but given the fact that Oxford loses out badly to its US competitors, building bigger endowments for our universities must surely be a priority. Does the Minister accept that the Government's recent announcement of £7.5 million a year to boost endowments, not only pales into insignificance, compared to the Conservatives' pledge of £500 million a year, but will make no difference whatever in helping our best universities and our brightest students?
Lord Triesman: No, my Lords, I do not accept the premises that the noble Baroness puts to me. The traditions of endowments in the United States are very different, due to the background of charitable giving. When you look at the endowments system, for example, at Harvard University—I believe that some 14 billion dollars is invested to provide those endowments—and the money raised even by universities which do not have prestige of Harvard in the United States or in the world system, you can see how difficult it would be for the UK to mirror that. However, big efforts are being made, both by the Government and by universities. There has been a significant improvement at Oxford, Cambridge and many other universities. They should be congratulated on that.
Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, is the Minister aware that all but one of our universities have announced that they will charge the maximum £3,000 fees? If the Office for Fair Access, with its part-time director, who is a university vice-chancellor, cannot ensure that there is a range of fees available to our students, what on earth is the point of it? Does the Minister agree with that?
Lord Triesman: My Lords, throughout the debate on this matter, we made it clear—and I thought that there was pretty wide support for this—that universities are independent institutions and they would come to their own decisions. The legislation around universities is designed to enshrine their independence—and those are the decisions to which they have come. Whether Sir Martin Harris is part time or not, I can hardly think of anyone with a more robust sense of what is needed to defend the United Kingdom system.
Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe: My Lords, I declare an interest as chief executive of Universities UK. Does my noble friend acknowledge that Oxford University's announcement shows the importance of overseas students, both culturally and financially, to the higher education sector? Does he agree that all government departments should support the recruitment of overseas
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students and that the Home Office's current proposals to increase visa extension charges could damage the efforts both of the sector and of his own department?
Lord Triesman: My Lords, the announcement by Oxford, which mirrors in some important respects the developments in other great institutions—for example, the London School of Economics—was about changing the environment and increasing the number of overseas students. The vice-chancellor of Oxford University, Dr John Hood, said on BBCl's lunchtime news that the steps were being taken because,
"we want our students to work as students in a diverse milieu, with people from many nations and cultures, which will better mirror the sort of world they will graduate into when they leave Oxford".
I do not believe that there are impediments, even of the kind that my noble friend has mentioned. The reality is that overseas students are flooding into the United Kingdom and I am delighted that that is the case.
Lord Baker of Dorking: My Lords, does the Minister not appreciate that if his government do not let Oxford charge the level of fees that it wishes to, and then tell it how it should select its students, then this decision to accept more overseas students was predictable, inevitable and entirely the responsibility of the Government? The Government should stop trying to put pressure on the universities by lecturing and bullying them—and should respect their independence.
Lord Triesman: My Lords, you can have no greater respect for the independence of Oxford or any other university than to say that it is taking academic decisions about the quality of its academic life and the milieu that it wants to create. Some universities advocate that fees should become a free-for-all. Well, that will not happen. Moving the balance towards slightly more postgraduates—we are reaching nowhere near the ratio of postgraduates to graduates that Harvard, for example, has—is a decision about the quality of the research environment, and Oxford is perfectly competent to take such decisions.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester: My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the chances of Oxford and Cambridge retaining their status as world-class universities will be enhanced as a result of their ability to charge the variable fees that the Government have introduced, but retaining that status would almost be impossible if the proposals of the party opposite to scrap those fees were to come into effect?
Lord Triesman: My Lords, I agree. The purpose of variable fees was to increase the income that universities required to retain their status. Universities also need to raise money by other routes. In the case of Oxford University, I understand that it will be selling land valued at some £80 million over the next two years. It has an income of some £20 million to £21 million from Oxford University Press. All such factors will help. Variable fees are unquestionably a

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mechanism for all universities, especially those that do not have those land resources or a charitable company ploughing money into them.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, returning to the question of overseas students, has any assessment been made of the indirect, as well as the direct, value to the economy made by overseas students who go on to hold influential positions in their own countries?
Lord Triesman: My Lords, I will check whether that has been modelled. I think that it was the University of Strathclyde that participated in research some years ago on such figures. I will check to see if there are contemporary figures. The newspaper coverage in other countries of the fact that Oxford University would potentially be encouraging more postgraduates from those countries, showed that that was met with widespread celebration. Not all of us read the newspapers from Kerala of a morning, but it was thought there to be a splendid world achievement.
Lord Roberts of Conwy: My Lords, the Minister said a few moments ago that international students were flooding into this country. There has been a decline in our market share, as six years ago some 16 per cent of international students came to this country, and we were second only to the United States. Now, the figure is down to 11 or 12 per cent, and we are equal with Germany in the share of international students. Are the Government doing anything to encourage international students to come here to boost our universities?
Lord Triesman: My Lords, a great deal of effort is going into attracting students, both from the Government and individual universities that run bilateral arrangements with other countries and do a huge amount of their recruitment in other countries. The set of figures that has just been presented could be misleading. The reality is that there is much greater movement of students around the world. Overall, the percentage that each country has varies over time, but the numbers reflected—which is the critical thing for a UK university—show that there is a great attraction of students from all over the world to United Kingdom institutions.

Commissioners for Revenue and Customs Bill
Brought from the Commons; read a first time, and ordered to be printed.

Mental Capacity Bill
11.32 a.m.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Constitutional Affairs (Baroness Ashton of Upholland): My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do now again resolve itself into Committee. — (Baroness Ashton of Upholland.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES in the Chair.]
[Amendment No. 28 not moved.]
Clause 7 [Payment for necessary goods and services]:
Lord Goodhart Lord Goodhart moved Amendment No. 29:
Page 4, line 36, at end insert—
"( ) A contract may be rendered void through the county court when it is demonstrable that a person lacked capacity to understand the contract when they made it or lacked capacity to meet their obligation under that agreement (or both)."
The noble Lord said: These amendments have been proposed by the CAB, which is concerned with the number of cases in which businesses have entered into contracts with people who lack capacity, and those contracts were unduly disadvantageous to those people. At present, under English law, though not under the law of Scotland, a contract entered into by a person lacking capacity can be set aside only if the other party to that contract was aware of the incapacity. The CAB amendments alter this, and it wants to apply to England the rule in Scotland, which is that a contract can be set aside on grounds of incapacity even if the other party to the contract was not aware of the incapacity.
There are two particular sets of circumstances in which a change of law of this kind ought to apply: first, if goods or services are supplied, even at a fair price but those goods or services are inappropriate for the requirements of the purchaser. For example, a person suffering from manic depression may, during a manic phase, buy things that are not needed by them and are not appropriate to their lifestyle. The CAB briefing refers to the purchase of a yacht, and I mentioned at Second Reading the purchase of enormous cowsheds for a farm that was far too small to be able to make use of them. In cases of that kind, it would be reasonable to say that the contract can be set aside at least before the providers of goods or services have changed their position to their detriment in reliance on it. For example, if someone lacking capacity buys an expensive new car from a dealer who has it in stock, and before delivery of the car the contract is set aside, the dealer is no worse off than if the contract had never been entered into. I accept that it is a more difficult situation for the contract to be set aside after delivery, particularly, for example, if the buyer of the car has caused damage to it.
The second set of circumstances where it is plainly justifiable to set a contract aside even in the absence of knowledge of lack of capacity, is where goods or services have been provided at an excessive price. Any such contract involves taking unfair advantage of the purchaser. It may not be a case where the purchaser lacks capacity. The purchaser may be gullible, inexperienced, badly advised or close to, but not quite over, the borderline of capacity. In such a case, the provider of goods or services can justifiably be required to accept the rest of the contract being set

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aside if the purchaser turns out to lack capacity, even if the provider was not aware of that. For example, a case was raised by the CAB of an elderly man who was talked into paying a gardener £ 1,125 for one and a half days work. That was clearly inappropriate, and it would be justifiable to set aside that contract and recover that money even if the gardener in question had done one and a half days' work. The principle applies also to the purchase of property at a substantial undervalue from a person lacking capacity.
These are issues for the civil courts, not for the Court of Protection. I see no need to confine them to the county courts as these amendments do. If it is law in the county court it should be law in the High Court as well. There is a strong case for extending the existing powers to set aside a contract for incapacity of one party where the contract can be set aside without loss to the other party, or where the person lacking capacity has been persuaded to enter into a plainly disadvantageous contract.
Further, the CAB says that under Scottish law, where any contract can be set aside if entered into by a person lacking capacity, that law works satisfactorily, and in general other parties are prepared to accept any consequential losses. We wish to hear the views of the Government both on the application of the full Scottish law and on the more limited alternative suggestions that I have mentioned. I beg to move.
Earl Howe: I add my warm endorsement of these amendments, which are of considerable importance. I suspect, in fact I know, that the Minister needs no persuading on the iniquities of those individuals who exploit confused elderly people by tricking them into making purchases that they do not need, or by overcharging them for goods or services that they have received.
The feature of these amendments that commends them is that they are not "nanny state" amendments. They are better seen as an addition to the legal framework that protects consumers generally, but also more particularly vulnerable consumers. The noble Lord has made a strong, persuasive case for buttressing the rights of consumers who lack mental capacity, because the safeguards in the existing law may not be ones of which they are capable of taking advantage. I agree that the experience in Scotland provides a useful paradigm for what these amendments seek to achieve.
Lord Christopher: I support the amendments as well. Perhaps I see them in a slightly different light in certain respects. To begin with, I see them prospectively as a deterrent for those who may be inclined to take advantage of vulnerable people. The better care agencies would wish to draw to the attention of the people for whom they provide that there may be a strong liability if they do certain things that they should not.
I have discovered that there are very many more such cases than anyone might realise, for the simple reason that, while some are prosecuted, the majority almost certainly are not. That is primarily because of the difficulties of proving fraud. One case in which there was a prosecution, similar to that referred to by the noble
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Lord, Lord Goodhart, was when a very expensive horse was purchased, a stable yard refurbished and new stables built, all out of the moneys of the elderly person ostensibly being cared for.
In a sense, my final remarks bear on what I said at our first sitting. The provisions as they stand will not help a great deal those who are not yet declared to lack capacity but are none the less seriously vulnerable. As the Bill's passage continues, I hope that we shall be able to fill that gap in it.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: The noble Earl, Lord Howe, is right that I need no convincing about trying to deal with unscrupulous behaviour, particularly towards elderly people. I have a lot of experience of that. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, for raising the matter. I am also grateful to my noble friend Lord Christopher, who raised very particular issues which we will come to in the course of the Bill's passage, but about which I have had the privilege of talking to him at length.
I shall resist the amendments on three grounds, but I do so with the opportunity to talk a little about what else the Government are doing to address the issues raised. I therefore resist the amendments in a spirit of wanting to find the best way to deal with the questions, not saying that the Government are not interested in dealing with them.
As the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, made clear, there is already a right to challenge a contract in court where one party knew or should reasonably have known that the other party lacked capacity. I am also concerned that, in making the amendments, we might even narrow the grounds for such a challenge, which would be extremely contrary to what the noble Lord wishes to achieve. I pay tribute to the work of the citizens advice bureaux in looking at the Bill with us, and more generally for the support that they give to many people, especially those in such circumstances.
As Members of the Committee know, common law enables a contract made with a person who lacks capacity to be challenged and declared void at the option of that person or their representative, if the other party knew or should reasonably have known that the person lacked capacity at the relevant time. As the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, said, the only exception is the provision in the Sale of Goods Act surrounding the sale of necessary goods. Those provisions, replicated in Clause 7, ensure that traders can sell and recoup a reasonable price for necessary goods and services to someone who lacks capacity to make the contract. That is to ensure that people who lack capacity can still buy goods and services, to enable them to live independently. That is the purpose behind this part of the Bill. The other side of the same coin is that the provisions also ensure that traders are not discouraged from selling to them. I recognise that the amendments would leave those areas unchanged, but it is important to examine the balance in such aspects of the Bill between enabling people to continue with everyday life and being unable to do so.

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Unfortunately, the amendments could also reduce the current scope of protection. An example is where the price is inappropriate. At the moment, any contract can be challenged, even a contract that is entirely fair in its terms. The second and third amendments would require the person lacking capacity to show that goods and services were not necessary, or that the seller had overcharged or undersold, before it could be challenged in the court. We do not want to reduce the scope of protection provided by the current common law—that challenge can be made on any grounds.
The third set of reasons is more complicated. The amendments shift the emphasis from whether the other party knew or had reasonable grounds to believe that the person lacked capacity to the simple question of whether the court believes that the person making the contract had capacity to do so. Under the amendments, if the person lacked capacity, the contract would be void. It does not matter whether the person selling to that individual could reasonably be expected to know that. That is at odds with the principles of the Bill, which empower someone who lacks capacity to make as many decisions as they can. We do not want reputable businesses to shy away from making contracts with anyone they perceive as lacking capacity, and thus for those who lack capacity to be discriminated against.
11.45 a.m.
It is also worth saying that the amendments would have an effect that I am sure is not intended. At the moment, a contract is voidable only if the person who lacks capacity wishes it to be so and if it is determined by the courts that that is right. The amendments would enable the seller to apply to the court to have a contract declared void on the basis of the person's lack of capacity. I am not sure that that is where we want to go, but it would be the effect.
The amendment would place an unreasonable burden on the business concerned. If any contract made with someone who lacked capacity could be void, irrespective of the other party's knowledge or reasonable belief about lack of capacity, there could be increased challenges. I am not sure that it is fair to say that a salesperson at the point of sale—which may not be face to face—would have to estimate whether a person lacked capacity. That is not reasonable.
The Government have approached these important issues through initiatives from my colleagues in the Department of Trade and Industry. I shall briefly set out a few examples, which I hope will allay some concerns raised. Today, we have the first day of Committee in another place on the Consumer Credit Bill. In that Bill, there is a new test of an "unfair relationship", which will enable a court to have regard to all relevant matters in a relationship that seem unfair to the debtor, including issues of capacity. The court can modify or set aside all or any of the rights and obligations in the credit agreement. In those circumstances, the court might find that a relationship was unfair, whether the lender knew that the person had the capacity to enter the agreement or not.
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That Bill will also allow a consumer to complain to the Financial Ombudsman Service about a credit agreement if the lender's own complaints service has been exhausted. People who are unable to represent themselves can be represented in making a claim. That Bill also gives the Office of Fair Trading expanded powers of investigation and enforcement to address conduct designed to exploit or harm people, which would include people who lack mental capacity.
Another project under way is the unfair commercial practices directive, which is directed at aggressive or misleading sales practice and should provide a high level of protection for vulnerable consumers. Also relevant is the Government's consultation on doorstep selling, which looked at bogus and exploitative trading practices. We have had 3,000 responses to that, and the NACAB has done huge work on door-to-door selling. We will be bringing forward proposals on the matter.
The issue is of significant concern to the Government. However, the amendments would run counter to the principles of this Bill, and conceivably make it more difficult for people who wished to live their lives independently to be able to do so. I know that that was not the intention. We take the issues raised extremely seriously, but we wish to address them in some of the other initiatives that we have taken forward. Within the way in which the law operates, we believe that we have the balance right in enabling people to live independently while recognising that any behaviour to exploit someone would be understood and dealt with by the courts. On that basis, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Goodhart: I am grateful to the Minister for expressing sympathy with the problems that arise in cases of this kind. However, I am a great deal less grateful for the fact that she is not prepared to do anything about it in the Bill. Quite correctly, she criticised the way in which these amendments are drafted. I have to say that I did not draft them myself, but those points are of course all curable.
Perhaps the noble Baroness's best argument was when she said that she did not want people to back away. I can see that up to a point, and I think that in cases where someone buys an apparently reasonable amount of clothes, there is no justification for penalising the person who sold them on the grounds that the person who bought them was, for example, also buying the same things from several other shops and ended up with far more than he or she needed. But there are also cases involving the sale of very expensive items, such as a car, a yacht, a horse or jewellery and so on, where the person who is selling should certainly have in mind whether there are any grounds for thinking that the person might lack capacity.
This is an important issue. I note that the Minister pointed with some force to the provisions in the Consumer Credit Bill, but if that is sauce for the goose of the Consumer Credit Bill, why is it not also sauce for the gander of the Mental Capacity Bill, and why should not the same kind of principles be applied more widely than to contracts of consumer credit?

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This is an issue to which we shall need to return. I shall take away these amendments but I think it likely that I shall bring them back, not in identical form but in a somewhat similar form intended to achieve the same effect but perhaps more efficiently. Meanwhile, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 30 and31 not moved.]
Clause 7 agreed to.
Clause 8 agreed to.
Clause 9 [Lasting powers of attorney]:
Lord Goodhart Lord Goodhart moved Amendment No. 32:
Page 5, line 17, leave out "and which includes authority to make such decisions"
The noble Lord said: In moving Amendment No.32, I shall speak also to Amendment No. 33. These amendments raise the question of when the lasting power of attorney comes into effect. In fact, the Bill is not nearly as clear on this subject as it should be. The issue is covered by Clause 9(1),which states:
"A lasting power of attorney is a power of attorney under which the donor … confers on the donee … authority to make decisions about all or any of the following … [the donor's] personal welfare or specified matters concerning [the donor's] personal welfare, and … [the donor's] property and affairs or specified matters concerning [the donor's] property and affairs, and which includes authority to make such decisions in circumstances where [the donor] no longer has capacity".
I have some difficulty in understanding exactly what the final words mean. They could be read as meaning that a lasting power of attorney comes into effect only on a donor's incapacity, but they could also be read as meaning that a lasting power of attorney may come into effect immediately or at any other time before the incapacity, provided it expressly states that it is to remain in effect after the commencement of incapacity.
As I understand it—I believe this is made clear by the draft code—the Government intend the latter meaning; that is, that it can come into effect immediately, provided it is stated that it will remain in effect after the commencement of incapacity. But I do not think that the drafting here is very good. It should be clarified.
One has to ask what kind of decision can be taken by the donee of a power of attorney while the donor still has capacity. There are, of course, two kinds of power here: the power to take decisions on personal welfare and the power to deal with property and affairs. I believe that final decisions on the personal welfare of the donor should be taken by the donor so long as he or she retains capacity. So far as concerns personal welfare, a spouse or relative could make arrangements. They could, for example, find suitable accommodation to offer to a donor who is unable to continue living alone, but the final decision in a case of that kind should be for the donor.
On the other hand, a lasting power of attorney could reasonably give a donee authority over the property and affairs of the donor while the donor was still alive. For example, a donor might say to a donee, "I find it too difficult nowadays to make out my tax returns. Can you deal with them?" That kind of transfer of
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power seems perfectly reasonable. Indeed, that is what the code says is the purpose of the Bill. But nothing in the Bill says that a lasting power of attorney cannot give authority to take welfare decisions while the donor still has capacity to take them himself.
Surely it should be stated in the Bill that, first, a lasting power of attorney cannot apply to welfare decisions before the donor loses capacity and, equally, that the lasting power of attorney can apply to decisions relating to property and affairs before the donor loses capacity. As I said, it is clear from the draft code that that is what the Government intend but it is very far from clear in the Bill that that is their intention, and I think that this is a sufficiently important issue to justify it being included in the Bill. I beg to move.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: The noble Lord is absolutely right in his interpretation—that is, financial powers of attorney can be used with or without capacity. An example of that is that at present people can and do use enduring powers of attorney when they have capacity. They may feel that they are no longer able to deal with certain things, such as the tax return—I know that feeling. Another example may be where the individual or his family have gone to live abroad but they do not know the country and have appointed an attorney to deal with issues for them in this country. There are many such examples. Or it may be the case of an elderly person who is finding it difficult to handle some investments but is perfectly happy to use his money on a day-to-day basis. The provision is specifically designed to allow that to happen. Those are common occurrences now and we wish them to continue. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, is with us on that.
Welfare issues can be included only when a person lacks capacity. Clause 11(6)(a) states that welfare decisions can be taken only where P lacks capacity. So I am not sure that I agree with the noble Lord that that situation is not dealt with in the Bill. But I make it clear that throughout the Committee stage everything that is said will be pored over by me and others to ensure that we capture all the critical points. However, I shall of course look at the language again.
Clause 9(1) does not deal with the point at which the LPA comes into effect; it concerns the fundamental definition of a lasting power of attorney. It must include the authority for when P lacks capacity or it will not be an LPA. We think that the combination of those clauses achieves what we and the noble Lord wish, which is, as the noble Lord said, within the code of practice. They enable flexibility for financial lasting powers of attorney but, for obvious reasons, inflexibility on welfare and other matters. I hope that I have addressed the points raised. I shall check the wording again but that is my understanding. I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Noon
Lord Goodhart: I am grateful to the noble Baroness. We are entirely agreed on the purpose here. What she has said goes some way towards satisfying my

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concerns. As this is simply a drafting point, it is unlikely that we will wish to press the matter again. Therefore, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 33 not moved.]
Earl Howe Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 34:
Page 5. line 22, after "registered" insert "and updated"
The noble Earl said: I hope that the Committee will allow me to take a few minutes to set out the thinking behind Amendments No. 34 and 46. Their aim is to place on the face of the Bill, and, I hope, to improve, the proposals suggested in a Written Statement by the Minister's honourable colleague, David Lammy, on 10 January. The intention is that the measures contained in the amendments would be of simple, practical assistance to donees, to financial institutions and to the Office of the Public Guardian. There are three issues to address and I shall go through each of them in turn.
First, there is the issue of keeping the register of lasting powers of attorney up to date. There is a widespread view, which I share, that keeping the register up to date will be essential if it is to be of any use in checking concerns about abuse. I welcome the fact that this concern has been acknowledged by the Government, but I believe that there is a case for including a requirement within the Bill that information is kept up to date once an LPA is in use.
To make the system workable there should be a requirement on the Public OPG to confirm receipt of information about the lasting power of attorney and all such confirmations should be presented with the instrument when being used. If a lasting power of attorney is being presented, for example, to a bank and an address has changed, proof that that has been recorded and acknowledged by the Office of the Public Guardian will mean that the bank will not need to conduct its own inquiries.
The second issue I want to flag up is that of establishing a simple method of enabling banks to accept a lasting power of attorney if it is stipulated that it should be used only if the donor has lost capacity. The suggestion that the Minister put forward was that the donor should state that the lasting power of attorney should come into effect only once a general practitioner has confirmed in writing the donor's lack of capacity to manage his affairs.
Unfortunately, that goes only part of the way to resolving the problems that banks will face. It is a helpful suggestion, but it does not cover the waterfront. First, a donor may fail to suggest that particular stipulation, or the stipulation might be one that the banks would not feel they could accept. Secondly, it may mean that banks develop different practices in relation to what they accept and do not accept; for example, how frequently would a bank want to have confirmation of that sort? On an individual decision test, it could mean that they may want confirmation for
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every single transaction, or other banks may develop systems whereby they want further confirmation of incapacity if the amount to be withdrawn is over a certain amount. One can see all kinds of complications arising.
My view is that these are issues that are best addressed on a national basis by the Office of the Public Guardian. I believe that in such cases it would be desirable for there to be a requirement on the donee to inform the OPG of the proposed use of such a lasting power of attorney and that the certificate of incapacity to manage his financial affairs should be sent to the OPG along with information about any other changes of circumstance. The OPG would then confirm in writing the receipt of that information and it should be presented to the bank with the instrument.
The third issue is establishing when a lasting power of attorney is actually in use. I believe that it is essential that the OPG is aware when registered LPAs are in use. That is essential because of the need to monitor and to gather statistics, but more importantly, it will enable the OPG to send relevant sections of the code of practice to donees at a time when they will have considerable relevance to them. Given that there is likely to be a long gap between registration and the LPA being used, it is likely that donees will need up-to-date information from the code.
In the case of financial LPAs, that would give an opportunity for the OPG to give information to donees about the need to discuss with the bank ways of opening accounts which would allow the donor as much responsibility for his finances as he could manage. That is of particular importance in cases where there are fluctuating conditions or where a donee can manage simple day-to-day transactions, but not large investments.
A simple way of triggering information about the use of the LPA is a requirement on the donee to inform the OPG when LPAs are used for the first time. At the same time, the donee should either confirm that there have been no changes of circumstances since registration other than the capacity of the donor, or should update any other changes of circumstances.
Currently, the proposal is that all registered LPAs should be updated with changes of circumstances. I really have to question whether that is sensible or necessary. It would engage the OPG in unnecessary work that frankly is of little relevance if the LPA is not in any form of use. It is very likely that individuals will forget to notify the OPG of changes of address or marriage if they are not using the lasting power of attorney.
I recognise that in some instances it may not be possible for the donee to have updated the registered instrument at the time when it is first needed. A welfare power of attorney, for example, may need to be used if the donor has suffered an accident and then goes into a coma. In those kinds of cases, I believe that the registered lasting power of attorney should be accepted, even if the information is not up to date, as long as the requirement is met by sending the required updated information to the OPG within 28 days.

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I also suggest that where no changes of circumstances have been recorded after the notification of use, it would be helpful for the OPG to send reminders, along with leaflets informing the donee about the code, at five-yearly intervals.
I hope that the Minister will be sympathetic to these proposals, which are designed to encapsulate and build on the idea set out by her honourable friend Mr Lammy. I beg to move.
Baroness Barker: The debate on Monday was one of high moral principle and great oratory. Today is the time to put on anoraks and get down to what I believe are some of the most important aspects of this legislation—the small, mundane things of life. I strongly support the noble Earl in all that he has said. Those who had the misfortune to be on the Joint Committee with me will know that I banged on endlessly about financial abuse.
One of the most shocking pieces of evidence that the Joint Committee heard was from Master Lush of the Court of Protection. We asked whether he could give any indication of how the current system was working. He said that the court, which at the moment does very little monitoring as far as I can see, reckoned that in about 20 per cent of the cases there was some form of abuse. That thought has stayed with me as the proposals have unfolded on lasting powers of attorney.
When the Minister responds, I suspect that she will make much of the fact that registration will be a factor. It is good that powers of attorney will now have to be registered because we know that there are thousands of powers of attorney which are not. In essence, they are almost like private arrangements between individuals.
I suspect also that the word "balance" might enter the Minister's response, because there is, I accept, a question of balance between undue burden and what is fair. I come down on the side of the noble Earl and his proposals for one reason: there is widespread ignorance about powers of attorney, even among people who hold them. Apart from anything else, what the noble Earl proposes will go a long way toward establishing good practices on a day-to-day level.
In discussions that I and others have had, usually with Ministers from the DWP, it is widely acknowledged that in financial affairs the response that one gets from a financial institution to a particular problem of this kind is random. One does not know how an institution will respond to a particular problem. That is not to say that banks and institutions do not respond with great compassion and understanding, but frequently they do so by bending rules and procedures in order to try to make something happen.
On the noble Earl's proposal to keep the register up to date, people live far more transient lives and names change far more frequently than they ever did before. The names of those involved are not necessarily obvious, where either the donor or the donee has married and changed his or her name. Such details need to be kept up to date. There is also the question
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of enabling LPAs to become "living" documents; ones which are routinely used. Another key point concerns the first use of an LPA.
Those are three fundamental elements to make what is a good proposal work in practice. Both donors and donees find these matters difficult. For all those reasons, I strongly support the noble Earl and I hope that he receives a favourable response.
Baroness Greengross: I have added my name to the amendment in support of the noble Earl because we have been very worried about financial abuse for a very long time. As the noble Baroness said, the amendment puts in the element of balance. So this is feasible, while at the same time being a fairly routine and easy way to protect people against the sort of abuse we really have to do something about. I am very pleased that the Bill will eventually do that.
Lord Christopher: Perhaps I may add one word of caution. I apologise to the noble Earl; I missed the context—it is not important to hear it again—in which he referred to general practitioners. But, from my own experience, to rely exclusively on them in present circumstances is a considerable risk. That is not a criticism of them at all, but they simply are not directly trained or involved in this area—and perhaps they should not be. That is a matter for consideration.
I discussed some of the affairs discreetly with one GP. He was quite appalled to learn of the financial changes taking place, which certainly would never have been known to him simply on the basis of his visiting the patient. I think that one needs to be very careful in that direction.
12.15 p.m.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: I would not like noble Lords in any way to pre-empt the Government's response to the amendment, but, on listening to the argument made out by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, it strikes me that there is the potential here for another point of abuse to be picked up and the red flag to occur in a way that may not happen otherwise. The principle behind the amendment is certainly extremely important even if the exact process may not be acceptable at the moment to the Government. The noble Earl has outlined another layer of safety for people.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, that it is important to ensure that we identify points where the red flag goes up and people become concerned. I am very grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, for bringing the amendment forward, not least because I think that he has half my speaking notes and the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, has the other half.
With regard to the amendment, I feel that I would want to look again at what we are doing. Where I differ from what has been proposed is only in the sense of what we put on the face of legislation, how inflexible that can be, what issues should go alongside it, and

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what is better put in guidance or codes or practice, which, noble Lords will know, I take very seriously because they have statutory force.
Perhaps I may explain to the noble Earl what my concern was about notifying the Office of the Public Guardian before the power was used. I could not see what the point of that would be, in the sense that you might use the power once and then not use it again for 20 years—for example, if it was a financial power, or because somebody had a road accident and it was used at that particular point to support their welfare needs, but then they recovered and that was that for 25 years. I do not see what the Public Guardian could do that would be of help. The noble Earl said that you could send donees the latest information from the code of practice to remind them of their duties and responsibilities. I cannot commit to that—I am going completely off my speaking notes here—but I thought that that was a very interesting point. I am very grateful to the noble Earl for it.
I am not sure how to make that happen, and I am not certain that it needs to be in primary legislation, but I hope that the noble Earl will not mind if I say that that was of great interest to me. I shall go away and think about what we might do.
As the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, said—and I have been more or less in this position—one does not always know what one is doing when given a power of attorney. The more we are able to inform people, the better. So I thank the noble Baroness for that and I shall look at it.
I am not going to make too much of registration. However, the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, is right; it is very important that powers of attorney are registered. In a sense, at the point of registration, a lasting power of attorney becomes a customer of the Office of the Public Guardian. From that point onward any complaints can be investigated and dealt with, whether or not the office has been notified that the power is being used. That is an important difference from the current position. I would not want to loose sight of that as a critical point of contact.
I can see the point about the code of practice, but I cannot see that being notified that the power was being used once would necessarily help. However, as I have said, I shall look at that point.
As the noble Earl said, some financial lasting powers of attorney can stipulate that they are to be used only when the donor loses capacity. We have talked about the certificate of incapacity. I think that there are real issues about that. We have made a commitment—the noble Earl referred to my honourable friend Mr Lammy—about amending the draft code of practice to explain that where a lasting power of attorney contains such a provision, the donor should specify that and specify how the donee will demonstrate that the donor has lost capacity. The code will say that if the donor wants to include this provision within the lasting power of attorney, it will be in his own interest to decide these arrangements in advance.
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Members of the Committee have talked about the role of GPs. We are not saying that somebody loses capacity at a positive moment in time, because it does not happen like that, and the Bill has specifically gone away from that premise. I should be concerned about not losing the flexibility that we would want to put into the provision, bearing in mind of course that the vast majority of lasting powers of attorney of all kinds are with those who love the individual and who are loved by the individual.
Yes, we need to be clear about stamping out abuse, but I do not want to be too inflexible. For the moment, I want to put that in the code and allow donors— people such as you or me—to decide, if they only wish the individual to use the power of attorney in financial matters when they have lost capacity to do so, how that will be determined. It may be by a GP; it may be by other means. I am nervous about including that in statute and making the provision even more onerous when this is something that we are keen for people to think about to make provision for the future in safety.
Baroness Barker: I have a great deal of sympathy with the noble Baroness's point about flexibility. I have talked to different people who know that they are ill and will lose capacity, and who, in the absence of the Bill, have sought to make all sorts of arrangements, including having consultant gerontologists sign an agreement with their spouse that they have lost capacity, and so on. Up to a point, I accept her argument about flexibility.
I also accept the good point made by the noble Lord, Lord Christopher: how on earth are GPs to make such decisions, especially in relation to a person's capacity to manage finances? The problem, to which my noble friend Lord Goodhart alluded, is that with nothing at all in the Bill, there is a huge hole. People who want to make powers of attorney do not know where to go or to whom to turn to have an authoritative statement about that fundamental point: that they have lost capacity.
I shall give the noble Baroness an example. An elderly lady had developed Alzheimer's. When a relative found out that a significant amount of money from an officer's war pension was going into her bank account, she suddenly came back from abroad and developed an interest. The person who had been guiding that person's welfare and her GP went to the bank to say, "This money is needed to pay for this person's care. This other person will come in and bring with them this person who lacks capacity. They will probably have got her to sign something, but we ask you not to give them the money". The bank said, "No. We have no authority to stop that".
My point is that it is not just about the wishes of the person with incapacity. How do institutions know who has the authority? That is an old example from many years back, but I have thought about the matter a lot and talked about it with some of the people concerned. For me, on balance, there must be some medical input. It cannot be the only or final input; there must be a structure of decision-making around it that includes

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representatives of families, and so on; but at some point there must be a definitive marker of whose word can be trusted.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I am grateful to the noble Baroness and I understand her example, but what was in my mind while she was speaking was, first, the fact that it will involve not someone walking in with a piece of paper but a registered LPA. The noble Baroness may shrug her shoulders, but the importance of that is that the donor, who could be me, will have made a decision about who they wish to be their attorney. That is critical.
First, this does not involve just someone arriving on the scene; you or I will have made the choice of who we want to be our attorney. Yes, we will put safeguards around that, but the critical factor is that, with capacity, I have made that choice. We should not lose sight of that. Secondly, I will have registered that choice with the Public Guardian, who knows about that choice and can have that choice challenged by another relative who says that that they are really worried about that. The Public Guardian would have to investigate that.
Thirdly, I take the point about banks and financial institutions. Part of the work that we are already beginning in thinking through what we do next is with the financial institutions to consider how we can support them and how they can train their staff better to understand those issues, given that backdrop.
One can argue about when medical intervention should be involved, but in my experience of people losing capacity, there is not one moment when it happens. People lose capacity over time, sometimes in a fluctuating way but, especially over financial issues, they may lose capacity over some things but not others. The reason that I want flexibility is that many people are vesting in someone who loves them the ability to say, "My mum can no longer deal with money. She cannot understand what the money is in her pocket. I can see that, so I need to be able to support her". It does not necessarily always involve a medical intervention of some kind by someone who says that they do not think that the person can deal with money any more.
All I am asking is that we do not make the Bill so inflexible that, first, people will not make these powers of attorney, which is a factor that we must always consider and, secondly, we do not recognise that in the vast majority of cases, people will not be incapacitated in any particular way at any one moment. I take on board what the noble Baroness said and am keen during the course of the Committee to reconsider the safeguards. In many ways, I have no difficulty with what is proposed; my only issue is with what is written in the Bill and what is not. The Committee knows better than I do that when including things in the Bill, we must ensure that, in a sense, we are inflexible—we are clear about what we mean, what sanctions apply and the outcome. From working in government, it is clear to me that what we provide in guidance, the code and advice that we send to people can have a dramatic effect on how people deal with issues.
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I take the noble Baroness's example; there are many examples and my noble friend Lord Christopher himself has a story to end most concerning what can go wrong. I am not against that, but I am looking for a balance. Let us be clear. Financial institutions need better training, information and support, yes. Registration is a critical part of that. People will make a considered choice at a point where they have capacity. Incapacity is not an event; incapacity is a process. We must be aware of that. It is mainly about choosing someone who you love and trust. We must keep that balance right. Having said all that, I am of course keen to ensure that we have this right and we will look at it again.
I shall finish by talking a bit about the point about changing circumstances raised by the noble Earl. As I said, that is when I definitely thought that he had got hold of my speaking notes. I agree with what the noble Earl is seeking to achieve. The issue is about how it would work. He himself asked: if there is a moment when you have to send in information, is that the most pertinent point? Again, I am not sure that that is for primary legislation or accompanying regulations.
What sanction would we impose if people do not let us know that they have moved house? If they do not notify us that they have changed their name, but it is clear from other evidence who they are, would we want the LPA to be invalid? Changing circumstances and changing information are important, and I accept that we need to get people to notify changes of circumstance, but the noble Earl himself said that, in many ways, that notification of information may be irrelevant—I hope that I am not misquoting him—to what we are seeking to achieve. We have been trying to enable people to give information under the code of practice but not saying, "You must do this", because there would have to be a corresponding, "If you do not do this, this is what will happen".
12.30 p.m.
I do not think that any Member of the Committee would suggest that in the case of a person moving house or failing to notify that they have changed their name—perhaps because they got married or divorced—where it is quite clear that it is still the same person, the power of attorney should become, somehow, invalid or that there should be a sanction against the person.
I am looking for ways in which we can use the code of practice so that we do not end up with an over-bureaucratic system, which I am not sure is the best use of public money when we need to do quite a lot in that area, or something that needs to provide a sanction with it.
In summary, I am very interested in what the noble Earl, Lord Howe, said about giving people more information when they want to use it and ensuring that the safeguards around that are right. I am very keen to keep flexibility to enable people to make informed choices and to ensure that the institutions, particularly financial ones, receive advice, support and understanding. I recognise that registration is a critical moment and makes the attorney a customer of the

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Office of the Public Guardian, thereby enabling people to complain, to raise issues and to have them investigated. We will look at how best to retain flexibility for the individual donor and not make it so onerous on the donee that people do not do it.
My contention is that, currently, that is in the code of practice. But, on the basis of what the noble Earl has said about giving people information, I will look at those issues again very carefully and perhaps have conversations outside your Lordships' Chamber. I hope that the noble Earl will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Christopher: Before my noble friend sits down, perhaps she will be kind enough to respond to two questions. The first question relates to filling what I think is probably an inexcusable gap in my knowledge. What will be the legal status of the code of practice? That is not simply my worry; it has been expressed to me by others when discussing the legal basis.
Secondly, did I understand the Minister correctly that members of the family would have an opportunity of objecting where lasting power of attorney was sought? My understanding of the Bill is that the person making the power could nominate those persons who should be told, which might leave out the family altogether.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: A statutory code of practice means that courts would take it into account. If one departs from a statutory code, one has to give evidence as to why one has departed from it, which gives the statutory code legal force.
My noble friend is correct. The Bill allows the individual to designate who he would wish to be notified about the lasting power of attorney, but that does not prevent anyone from making a complaint to the Office of the Public Guardian, which can decide if it wishes to pursue that complaint.
Earl Howe: This has been an extremely useful debate. I extend my thanks to the Minister, the noble Baronesses, Lady Barker and Lady Finlay, and the noble Lord, Lord Christopher, for having illuminated aspects of those quite tricky questions. At Second Reading, I said that quite a bit of what I wanted to raise in Committee was about balance and clarity, of which this is a classic example.
We will be coming to a series of issues where the question will be: should we amend the Bill or should we be content with something in the code of practice? I agree fully with the Minister that a lot of this could be embodied within the code of practice very satisfactorily. I am not completely convinced, however, that there should be no amendment whatever to the Bill. We really need to look at that issue between now and Report stage.
The Minister will realise that my key concern was that there should be established, recognised procedures, so that the system is workable and universal. I used the banks as my main example in the context of those amendments. From a day-to-day point of view, interaction between the donee and donor's banks will have particular importance. But we do not want different
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banks to adopt different rules and practices that leave the public bewildered and unclear, which suggests that whatever rules we have should be mandatory if they are to be universal. I am not quite sure that the code of practice, although it will have statutory force, will ensure that all the banks sign up to it and that they do not also add their own rules.
Flexibility is fine, but it can lead to uncertainty. That is the downside of flexibility. Nevertheless, I am grateful to the Minister for all that she has said. I think that we are thinking on parallel tracks even if the tracks are not exactly the same. For now, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Earl Howe Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 35:
Page 5, line 30, leave out "section 4 (" and insert "sections 1 to 4 (the principles and"
The noble Earl said: In moving the amendment, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 55 and 57. The amendments are quite simple: they are aimed at ensuring that the attorney under an LPA acts in accordance with all the principles outlined in Clause 1. I believe—I am sure that we all do—that attorneys should be aware of the need to consider each of the principles before acting; for example, making sure that the person lacks capacity before making any decision, enabling the donor to make his own decisions where possible, helping the donor to communicate his decision and so on. Although that is implied in the Bill, in the light of my discussions with the Making Decisions Alliance, my feeling is that that should be in the Bill.
Amendment No. 57 makes a proposal that is closely allied to that point. The proposed new subsection would make it clear that financial attorneys are also under the same obligation not to make any decisions for the donor if he can make the decisions for himself, unless the donor has expressly given permission that it can be used prior to loss of capacity. That provision, explicit in the Bill, would serve to focus minds at the time that the LPA is created. More to the point, it would act as an added safeguard to the donor. I beg to move.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: I strongly support this amendment. Reinforcing the principles behind the Bill is crucial. One can imagine a situation where someone had powers and his decision-making was influenced by his own experience. We all have fears—sometimes irrational or deep-seated—of which we may not even be completely aware. But such views may alter the way in which we look at something, particularly if it is from someone else's point of view.
On trying to think through the type of decision that could be made, I became concerned that a clinically negligent or irrational decision might be made. It would then be very difficult, unless you were really forcing the person making the decision to go back to the core principles of the Bill, even to be able perhaps to challenge that.
One example that came to mind was a situation concerning someone with a high spinal injury in intensive care, in a coma and unable to communicate

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in any way. The person making the decision might view that as being so horrendous that when asked for a welfare decision he would go against continuing with all clinical input. But the clinicians may be aware that the condition is in fact spinal shock as opposed to a cord transection and that there may be quite a high chance of recovery. That is an example from my own experience.
However, the general principle will arise in several other amendments because reinforcing the principles in the Bill at every relevant point is absolutely crucial. Again. I strongly support the amendment.
Baroness Barker: I rise to support the noble Earl in his amendment and to speak to Amendments Nos. 55 and 57, to which I have added my name. On Tuesday, I think it was the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, who talked about decisions that are benign but which are made unnecessarily on behalf of other people. Given that, my reason for attaching my name to these amendments is to highlight why they are needed. A carer for a person who lacks capacity may become so used to making decisions that, while they are clearly in the person's interests, doing so becomes a way of life. Over time, the carer begins to take over decision-making on aspects and activities where the person could be making those decisions for himself.
I hasten to say that I have no wish to undermine carers in any way, but having listened to people with learning disabilities, I know that one of their fears about this Bill—although more so over the original draft Bill than the one before the Committee—is that it will allow others to make on their behalf decisions that they are perfectly capable of making for themselves. This is not easy to quantify, and I shall give the Minister a dose of her medicine by saying that I do not think that we should be too specific—the wording is general in nature. None the less, it is right to include what is almost a form of reminder for decision-makers that they should not be making decisions where it is reasonably clear that the person concerned could make that decision for himself. That would strike a helpful balance in the legislation.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I sympathise with what these amendments are trying to achieve. The proposal is very much in line with the spirit of the Bill by placing an emphasis on the principle of best interests, minimum intervention and our insistence on a functional approach to capacity.
We have put the principles right up front and have made it clear that we want them to apply to all acts done and decisions made for people who lack capacity. Attorneys must have regard not only to best interests, but also to the presumption of capacity, the principle of minimum intervention, and the requirements for assessing capacity as set out in Clauses 2 and 3.
Noble Lords will note that we again make specific reference to "best interests" in this clause because that is the guiding principle of the Bill. All decisions made and acts done by attorneys must first and foremost be
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guided by a regard for best interests. On Tuesday we discussed objectivity within the consideration of best interests that is critical to that way of operating.
The relevant clause already holds that attorneys are subject to the "provisions of the Act" which will make them subject to the principles set out in Clauses 1, 2 and 3. But I am not averse to including additional references to the principles clause. I shall look at this again and consider whether Clauses 1 and 4, covering principles and best interests, do go far enough in their emphasis to address the points that have been made On that basis, I hope that the noble Earl will not wish to press his amendment.
I turn to Amendment No. 55. I recognise that the objective is to ensure that an attorney with the authority to make personal welfare decisions cannot act if he,
"knows or has reasonable grounds for believing that P has capacity in relation to the matter".
The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, spoke tellingly about the way in which someone can find himself, with no malign intent, drifting into the habit of taking over the decision-making processes in someone's life.
That will be balanced by the guidance we issue and the clarity with which we set out the processes for determining capacity. But Clause ll(6)(a) already makes it clear that an attorney's authority to make decisions about a person's personal welfare extends only to those circumstances where the person lacks capacity. Further, while I hope that the Bill will be widely read once it has been enacted, I have my doubts about that. What will matter is how the message is put across to those who find themselves acting as attorneys, along with all those who have an interest in looking after the welfare of people who lack capacity.
This new subsection was added to Clause 11 in response to recommendations made by the Joint Committee, and I am grateful for that. We agreed that neither health nor welfare decisions should be taken by an attorney while the donor has capacity. Given that, I think that the Bill already achieves the intention of this amendment while recognising that its interpretation in the outside world is a critical element. The code of practice will be very important in its function of providing information to those who act as attorneys.
We have discussed briefly the issues raised by Amendment No. 57 in the previous group. It addresses the difference regarding a financial power of attorney in the sense that, very often, those with enduring power of attorney are able to act in some matters but not in others. We have spoken about handling investments, filling in tax returns and so forth. The donor and donee can work together on such matters. However, we have also said that if donors wish to limit that authority, they should do so. That is already provided for in the Bill because it makes specific provision for the donor to set out restrictions and conditions if they so wish. It also ensures that when people do consider a lasting power of attorney, they receive the necessary guidance on when and how it should be done.
On the basis of my commitment to look again on where the principles might be set out, and on the basis that issues of welfare and financial powers of attorney

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are addressed and will be further covered in guidance and the code of practice, I hope that the noble Earl will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
12.45 p.m
Earl Howe: I am grateful to the Minister for her helpful reply, and to the noble Baronesses who spoke in support of these amendments. Turning first to Amendment No. 35, I thank the Minister for agreeing to look again at the point.
I will take Amendment No. 55 away and look at it again. I would say only that I think the amendment is perhaps more in tune with the spirit of Clauses 1 and 2 in that it is very much a matter of emphasis here. We may arrive at the same point legally, but the language used and the absence of negatives may be of some significance.
I take the point made about Amendment No. 57. If this issue does not appear in the Bill, it is certainly one that should be flagged up when the code of practice is issued. It is something that everyone who makes a lasting power of attorney needs to think about and is not a matter that should pass by default. Given that we are in agreement on that point, it is more a question of deciding where the provision should go. Again, I shall reflect on what the Minister has said. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 9 agreed to.
Schedule 1 [Lasting powers of attorney: formalities]:
Earl Howe Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 36:
Page 36. line 24. after "attorney," insert "and in the case of a welfare attorney prescribed sections within the instrument covering advance statements as to treatment and care preferences, advance decisions that specified treatment is not to be carried out,"
The noble Earl said: In moving Amendment No. 36 I shall speak also to the other amendments grouped with it. This is another set of amendments with a very practical purpose to them. Quite simply, each attempts to improve the wording of the instrument. The amendment to paragraph 2( 1 )(a) is aimed at encouraging donors to put as much information as possible on the instrument about how they wish the donee's powers to be used, and to make clear to the donee on the instrument any wishes and preferences they may have in relation to their care.
Having talked about this with members of the Making Decisions Alliance, I think that the LPA instrument could be of great help in establishing a person's past wishes if at the time of making the instrument the donor is encouraged to give some serious consideration to how they would like their care to be provided. For instance, they may wish to state that they would like the donee to receive a direct payment for care rather than having to receive services. That would be in line with the Government's policy of encouraging that kind of empowerment. Currently, direct payments can be made only once the person has lost capacity if this has been specified on the enduring power of attorney instrument. It would be a great help to the donee to know what the person wished if this was stated on the LPA.
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Amendments Nos. 38, 39 and 44 relate to donees stating whether they are bankrupt or on the POVA register. The amendments would simply allow an additional safeguard if donees had to make statements of this nature.
Amendments Nos. 47 to 50, which relate to paragraphs 19 to 22, would ensure that where there is an alteration to an LPA there must be a statement about the nature of the alteration on the instrument itself. The Bill proposes that the alteration could go on an attached note. I am not happy with that. We all know what happens to attached notes—they become detached and can go adrift. I agree very strongly with the Making Decisions Alliance that this is one point of important detail which should be rethought. I beg to move.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I am grateful to the noble Earl. I must admit that the stamping part of the Bill is my favourite and I have been looking forward to debating it for several days.
Let me go through the amendments. With Amendment No. 36, we are again discussing where one would provide information, not the question that information is important. The reason I am resisting the idea of putting on the face of Bill the information that the noble Earl wishes to have about the kind of care and treatment the donor might like to receive—although I recognise the importance of giving people information and getting them to think about decisions—is that the prescribed information is not for that purpose and I am a little nervous about what it might do.
I looked yesterday at the prescribed information required on the enduring power of attorney form. An obvious comparison is where you apply for a passport and a great deal of information is provided in boxes at the side of the form which helps you to fill it in. The purpose of the prescribed information would be to ensure that donors fully understand the purpose and the effect of the lasting power of attorney that they are creating. It is a critical function of that information that donors are in no doubt about what they are doing and what they are creating.
I would be worried about including information on advance decisions as part of that prescribed information, partly because people might feel that they have to include information about advance decisions on the form. Technically, the amendment would make that kind of information essential. I know that is not what the noble Earl seeks to do—he is seeking to invite people to think about the issue and perhaps to include such information—but, unfortunately, the amendment would have that effect. I mention that in passing but, nevertheless, it is an important part of the debate.
We will be providing guidance, including advice about advance decisions. The noble Earl referred to people wanting someone to be financially supported, to the importance of people thinking through the kind of decisions they are making and the importance of making their wishes known to their loved ones or to their attorney—who would probably be a loved one too—so that they are able to act on their behalf in the best possible way.

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I agree with the spirit of the amendment but I am nervous about saying that advance decisions should be on the form because the purpose of the information required is different. It is about ensuring that people know where to sign and that they understand what the document is. We are only discussing where you do this. I do not think it is appropriate for it to be on the form.
Amendment No. 37 would require the person making the LPA to state on the document the relationship, if any, between the donee and any person the donor has named to be notified of an application. I am not really sure quite what the noble Earl is getting at but I think it is to identify any possible collusion between the donee and the named person, or indeed to signal any undue pressure that might have been placed on the donor to name a person who will not object to the registration. I am not sure that that would be particularly helpful because we know that the relationship between the donor's chosen attorney and a named person is not a sound indicator of whether that person is acting in the interests of the donor.
Our guidance will inform people about the benefits of naming a person to be notified but, again, this is ultimately the choice of the donor. If the noble Earl wishes to return to the issue and explain a little more about what might be achieved, perhaps we can speak again outside the Committee. The only thing I can think of is that it would help to identify possible collusion, but I am not sure that the amendment would achieve what is necessary in such a case.
Amendment No. 38 seeks to amend the schedule to the effect that the powers of lasting powers of attorney are subject to the provisions of the Bill and, in particular, to Clauses 1 to 4. It is a mirror of Amendment No. 35, which we have already discussed. As I have already indicated, I will consider Amendment No. 35 and whether we can make changes to make it even clearer that the principles in Clause 1 must be followed by an attorney.
Amendments Nos. 39, 44, 45 and 47 concern additional safeguards. They all require the donee to state that he is not bankrupt and is not on the protection of vulnerable adults list. They require the notifications, which must be sent to those named by the donor to inform them of registration, to contain this information. I agree that we should do everything we can to safeguard against the abuse of donors of lasting powers of attorney.
Let me deal with the issue of bankruptcy. The Bill already states that someone who is bankrupt cannot be appointed to act as a financial attorney. We have listened to concerns about how we can ensure that this provision is not ignored. There may be a situation, for example, where the donor did not know that the donee was bankrupt and the donee kept quiet about it. We have therefore decided that the Office of the Public Guardian will check to see if prospective financial attorneys are bankrupt when an LPA is to be registered. That information will be available to the Office of the Public Guardian throughout and should make it unnecessary for the donee to agree a statement
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to that effect or for it to be included on the notification. If the donee is bankrupt, then the LPA will be invalid. That will achieve the noble Earl's objective.
As the noble Earl said, the amendments also relate to people on the protection of vulnerable adults list. They propose that someone who appeared on the list could not be registered as a lasting power of attorney unless the donor was aware of this. If the donee was placed on the list and the donor was unaware of this and lacked capacity, the lasting power of attorney would be revoked.
I am very sympathetic to the intention of the amendments but my reservation is a practical one. It would not be possible as things stand for the public guardian to check whether donees were on the POVA list and, therefore, whether these requirements could be complied with.
The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, will know more about this than I do—I know that she was very involved in the legislation— but the list was designed to ensure that people included on the protection of vulnerable adults list could not be recruited to work as care providers. That is what it is for. In order to make it possible to cross-check—and there are also issues of information being used other than for its original purpose, but I shall leave those aside for the moment— we would have to make substantial, fundamental amendments to the Care Standards Act 2000 to allow the list to be checked by donors or by the Public Guardian. Such changes would be beyond the scope of this Bill.
I have already indicated that I am very sympathetic to what lies behind the amendments and so I propose to look at another way of doing this. Noble Lords will know that the Government are currently considering the recommendations of the Bichard inquiry, one of which proposes that,
"new arrangements should be introduced requiring those who wish to work with children, or vulnerable adults, to be registered".
If we were able to adopt such a scheme, we could consider whether donees of lasting powers of attorney and deputies should be brought within it. The current position is that the Office of the Public Guardian could not check the accuracy of the donee's statement that he or she was not on the POVA list, but we are considering, within the context of the Bichard inquiry, whether we can address that shortcoming.
I propose to take this issue away and look at whether there is value in requiring prospective attorneys to make a statement that they are not on the POVA list. However, it must be understood that whether or not they tick the box, at present there is no way of checking. That might be a deterrent to some people who did not know that we could not check it, but I do not want to give the wrong impression.
Now we get to my favourite part, which is about stamping—
1 p.m.
Baroness Barker: I am very sorry to hold the noble Baroness back. I heard what she said about the POVA list, and I quite understand why it is not possible to do

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what we want. I think she said there should not be a requirement for somebody to declare that he was a bankrupt because that would be checked by the Office of the Public Guardian, and if someone was a bankrupt, the LPA would be automatically invalidated. What would then happen? Presumably the authorities would then write to the person who had taken out the power of attorney that it was invalid because the person chosen to act as donee was bankrupt.
Given what the noble Baroness said about having a statement about POVA, albeit a voluntary one that cannot be enforced by legislation, is there not a parallel about getting people to declare, or not declare, bankruptcy at the stage at which the power of attorney is being drawn up so that we begin, through the paperwork, to drive standards up? There is something wrong about this being reactive, about people having to go to the Office of the Public Guardian to be told that it cannot be done because their chosen donee is bankrupt. That should be brought to people's attention when they are drawing up the LPA. I am sorry that this is a bit incoherent, but does the noble Baroness take my point?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I take the point completely. The noble Baroness has highlighted what I said was almost a contradiction. Because we can check something, there is no need to tick a box; because we cannot check something, the box has to be ticked. The noble Baroness is absolutely right.
The point behind the amendments is, I believe, to provide clarity and protect vulnerable people. The underlying principle is whether we can discover whether somebody is bankrupt. Yes, we can. Can we discover whether somebody is on the POVA list? No, we cannot.
The noble Baroness talks, quite rightly, of deterrence. If people have to tick a box, it might make somebody think twice. That is why I shall look at this within the context of POVA. I am not against having a box about bankrupts; I was not suggesting that that would or would not be a good thing, and I shall look at it. But in the context of the Bill, as opposed to how we design the form to make it work better, if somebody were bankrupt, we would know. We would be able to identify him even if the LPA had already been registered, and to notify financial institutions to that effect. With POVA, we cannot.
In looking at what might be on the form, I would not want to pretend that, with regard to POVA, it would give us any further information other than what the individual chose to declare. That might be a good deterrent, but it would be no more than that at this stage. I accept that what I said was contradictory purely in terms of the amendments, but I was asking what we were trying to achieve.
The noble Earl has taken forward something the MDA has raised, and we may have given the answer. The instrument is stamped. The word "note" is stamped. My initial reaction yesterday was to change
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"note" to "stamp"; then someone very cleverly pointed out that the great joy of legislation is always making sure that you put something down for the future. I shall not be changing "note" to "stamped", although they are stamped at the moment, because if we move to electronic records, that will be an electronic note and not a physical stamp, and I would have to bring the legislation back to change it. Noble Lords can see why I am enjoying this.
The noble Earl is absolutely right; the most logical thing to do is not attach one piece of paper to another piece of paper and risk it being lost. That does not happen now—it is stamped. But I want to leave the word "note" in the Bill to allow for what I hope will be a good move to electronic records. I hope that that explanation makes sense, and that the noble Earl will feel totally satisfied and withdraw his amendment.
Baroness Masham of Ilton: There are many vulnerable people who have capacity but may be frail and vulnerable. Will they be protected under the Bill, or will it only be those without capacity?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: The whole purpose of the Bill, as I think the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, knows, is to try not to define a person as lacking in capacity, incapable or having capacity. For many people, as they get older, or because of illness, changes in capacity are fluctuating or gradual. It is a function of getting older. We are seeking to protect everybody by making it absolutely clear that incapacity is not a moment—it is a process.
Secondly, one should always act in the best interests of the individual. That is an objective, not a subjective, test. It is not a question of what I think or what the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, thinks, but of what is objectively in the individual's best interests.
Thirdly, given the protections we provide for powers of attorney, we are telling people that if they wish to, it is a good idea to appoint somebody they trust, and probably love, to act on their behalf if they cannot do it themselves. We are saying that our job is to provide safeguards so that even though the vast majority will be fine, if somebody were to try and exploit people, we would protect them.
I hope that as we go through the Bill, the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, will see that that is what we are doing. Many of the issues we are debating today are not about a disagreement of principle but merely about how we achieve what we want.
Earl Howe: This is just the sort of debate in Committee that I enjoy and believe that we should have because it enables us to air some extremely important practical matters. We all agree about the end result; it is simply a question of how we get there.
I well take the noble Baroness's point that Amendment No. 36 has an unwanted side effect. I shall reflect on that point. As regards bankruptcy and the POVA list, we are looking at how we reach the end point. In a sense, it does not really matter how we get

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there on this issue, as long as we get there. I am very grateful to the Minister for her undertaking about bankruptcy. I am entirely reassured by that.
I was a little disappointed to hear that there is no means for the Public Guardian to carry out a check on whether someone is on the POVA list. It would be helpful to have a discussion with the Minister outside the Committee on what options are available to achieve the end point we both desire. I am grateful to her for referring to the Bichard inquiry, which is very germane to the issue.
There is a deterrent value in requiring someone to tick a box. That was partly the rationale for these amendments, although it is not a sufficient justification for them. The justification is, as we all agree, to protect vulnerable people. Nevertheless, I think we are in agreement on that narrow issue. The points that the noble Baroness made about the stamp were sufficient deterrent to enable me to refrain from bringing back these amendments at Report. However, I do not want to close off my options at this stage. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 37 to 39 not moved.]
Earl Howe Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 40:
Page 37, line 12, at end insert —
"( ) no material conflict of interest is likely to arise by the creation of the lasting power of attorney,"
The noble Earl said: In moving Amendment No. 40, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 41 to 43 and 58. Amendment No. 40 is, I hope, self-explanatory. A person on whom a lasting power of attorney is conferred is in many cases likely to be the spouse or close relative of the donor. In those circumstances, the donor enters into the power of attorney with his eyes open as regards any potential conflict of interest which the donee may face if ever in the future he has to act under its authority.
Conflicts of interest are an everyday fact of life. Very often, they do not matter because many if not most people are able to set aside their personal wants and wishes when they know that their duty is to do the very best by someone they love. However, there will be instances where perhaps the conflict of interest is both blatant and dangerous. We have all read of cases where someone has inveigled their way into the life of an elderly person of some means. The family of that person are all of a sudden made to feel unwelcome by this individual who may be a carer or housekeeper. Before anyone knows what is happening, the carer has become the donee of a lasting power of attorney. Within a year or two, the power has taken effect because of the mental incapacity of the donor. I am concerned that, as the Bill stands, there is not a great deal to prevent that type of situation arising.
My amendment proposes that, at the time of registration, the Public Guardian should have the reassurance from the person signing the certificate that accompanies the LPA that, in his opinion, there is no material conflict of interest—actual or potential—about
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which the Public Guardian need be concerned. A qualified statement by the person signing the certificate would not necessarily be a bar to registration of the LPA. However, it could serve as a marker if, at a future date, the Office of the Public Guardian initiated a degree of monitoring on the operation of certain LPAs. One hopes that it would also act as a signal to the donee of the LPA that a certain conflict of interest had been publicly noted. There could well be merit in having at least an element of transparency in this sense without going overboard in trying to eliminate conflicts of interest in all circumstances, which is clearly unrealistic and impossible.
Amendments Nos. 41 to 43 are again straightforward. Clause 9 makes it clear that an LPA is not created unless the person executing it has capacity to do so. When we look at the provisions in Schedule 1 relating to the formalities for making an LPA effective, it is not explicitly stated how the Public Guardian is supposed to know whether that condition has been met. That is clearly a fundamental consideration and I wonder whether a responsibility should not be placed on the person signing the certificate accompanying the LPA that, in his opinion, there is no doubt about the person's capacity to enter into the deed.
If so, it is not obvious how the person signing the certificate is supposed to ascertain the matters that he is required to certify or what investigations will be necessary for him to carry out. If he is negligent, or maybe a little remiss in carrying them out, what penalties will there be for incorrect certification? Although we do not want to create a mammoth piece of bureaucracy, people need to know that certifying an LPA is not something to be undertaken lightly or incautiously.
We do not know who the person of a prescribed description will be—whether a medical practitioner, a lawyer or someone else with a suitable qualification. Equally, we do not know what kind of prescribed information the certificate will have to contain. It would be extremely helpful to the Committee if the Minister could shed a little light on these areas.
1.15 p.m.
Amendment No. 58 is a straightforward probing amendment. I do not need the Minister to tell me that it is extremely defective in the way that it has been drawn up. It is designed for a purpose—as a hook on which I can hang what I am about say. Clause 13 (6) makes clear that the appointment of an LPA donee is terminated on the occurrence of certain events, one of which is when the donee himself loses mental capacity. My question is self-evident from the amendment. What does this provision imply? Does it mean that a donee who has a car accident and is taken to hospital in a coma, but who later makes a full recovery, will find that his appointment has been terminated by his period of unconsciousness? Does it mean that someone who is epileptic and has temporary periods of incapacity cannot ever be the donee of a lasting power of attorney?

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As the clause stands, not only would temporary bouts of incapacity terminate the donee's appointment, but they would also serve to revoke the power itself. Is that really desirable? I realise that the amendment is far from perfect as it stands, but I would be grateful if the Minister could throw some light on the question. I beg to move.
Baroness Barker: I will speak to Amendment No. 79 which is in this group, but before I do, I want to say that I strongly support the intent behind the amendment moved by the noble Earl, Lord Howe. As he said, conflicts of interest are everyday matters and things that families manage very well. However, when a conflict of interest is of such a magnitude it is right that it should at least be noted and registered, if not prohibited. I hope that that would apply to all powers of attorney, however informal the process of establishing it had been— whether or not there had been legal advice.
Amendment No. 79 is designed to question Clause 23(2)(b). This may be a reflection on the lack of capacity of my noble friend Lord Goodhart and myself—although my noble friend is an experienced draftsman and lawyer—but neither of us understood what the clause meant. We thought that it might refer to big decisions such as moving house or something that a person would absolutely have to be consulted about. However, we did not really know what it meant so we are asking the Minister to explain.
Lord Alton of Liverpool: I also share the concerns voiced by the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, on that point. I am sure that we all agree that clarity in legislation is essential but sometimes we fall back on a certain amount of gobbledegook and anyone reading paragraph (2)(b) of Clause 23 would agree with the remarks just made. However, I particularly support what the noble Earl, Lord Howe, said on Amendment No. 40 about the important question of conflicts of interest. Many of us will have dealt with such situations. Certainly, when I was a constituency Member of Parliament I often dealt with disputes within families or between friends because of issues that would arise through conflicts and they were some of the most painful experiences that any of us could be involved in.
I particularly recall a telling remark made by the noble Earl's noble friend, the noble Baroness Lady Cumberlege, during the Second Reading debate on the Assisted Dying for the Terminally Ill Bill. She said—and it drew some laughter in the Chamber, though the issue is very serious—that where there is a will there is a relative. We must at least be seized of that possibility. That is why, when conflicts of interest arise, it is important that we ensure, as the noble Baroness has just said, that they are at least recorded— and, in some cases, there should be strict prohibitions.
We shall have to consider the question with regard not only to LPAs but to directives and other issues in the Bill. It may be that there should be a specific section simply dealing with conflict. I draw the Committee's attention in that regard to the most recent report of the Joint Committee on Human
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Rights—the fourth report of the Session 2004–05. The committee suggested that the following safeguard should be inserted into the Bill:
"A requirement that a witness to an advance directive not be a person who stands to gain from the person's death, or employed at the relevant health care establishment which is caring for the person".
Will that point, and the point raised by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, be addressed as we proceed through the details of the Bill?
Baroness Howarth of Breckland: The reason I am here today is to raise on behalf of CSCI, and as the ex-deputy chair of the National Care Standards Commission, the serious concern that they have about the registered owners and their staff. It is important to consider not only the staff in care homes but the whole grouping who might become either LPAs or deputies. That is why I am in difficulties knowing on which amendment to make my point, so forgive me if I am procedurally wrong. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, is always so good at being eloquent. It would make it extraordinarily difficult for vulnerable people to have confidence in their care homes if they felt that these powers were in the hands of those who were registered to care for them.
There is an added difficulty in that CSCI, which has the responsibility to inspect in such situations, will find itself with a whole new raft of conditions to oversee in terms of the rights and responsibilities of the individuals under its care in relation to that inspection. So there is an institutional as well as personal problem.
I hope that the Government take time to consider the matter. I would like to see some definition placed in the Bill. The Minister may be reticent about that but, if that is not done, these issues must be included firmly in guidance. I am grateful for the words recommended by my noble friend, and seek clarification on the point.
There are some difficulties in how the definition might be written, as one cannot prevent those in residential homes and domiciliary care—and let us not forget that domiciliary care, with people caring for Others in their homes, is part of the issue—from looking after people's finances and being involved in them. Carers often have to manage the money, collect the pensions and do the shopping. We need to be careful that we do not exclude those activities in ensuring that those carers are not deputies or have power of attorney.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: First, my noble friend Lady Andrews will address in greater detail the very important point that the noble Baroness. Lady Howarth, has raised. I became aware of it when I saw the letter from the Commission for Social Care Inspection yesterday. I am going to seek a meeting with CSCI, as well, to explore the matter in greater detail. But I can tell the noble Baroness at the outset that we are very alive to the issue. There are no absolutes in this issue, as she will know, so we want to be clear about not ruling something out for ever in all circumstances. But there are real concerns, which she has raised, and my noble friend will discuss them in

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greater detail when we reach Amendment No. 64, when the matter arises. However, the noble Baroness is right to raise the matter here, too, and we shall consider what we can further do. We do not want to move to an absolute position, because there may be circumstances in which it is appropriate to act as deputy in particular circumstances approved by the court in the right way.
I am grateful to all Members of the Committee who have spoken on this matter. I can tell the noble Lord, Lord Alton, when we come to advance decisions, but I do not want to pre-empt that. He makes an important point, and I am studying what the Joint Committee said in its final deliberations on the Bill to ensure that we have got the Bill right. But that is an issue, as the noble Lord will realise, that we must deal with in the right and sensible way, recognising the relationships that will exist between those acting as attorneys, who will very often be beneficiaries but may not know that they are. With an advance decision, a doctor would not know and could not find out the beneficiary of somebody's will, because there would be no way of knowing that. We must ensure that we have got the balance right.
Lord Alton of Liverpool: Before the Minister leaves that point, she said earlier in our proceedings that she was aware that many people will never read the detail of the Bill but they will have a rough idea of what it allows. Would it not be sensible to codify in one part of the Bill all the questions around conflicts of interest? We will debate the different aspects of that when we discuss Amendment No. 64. But the matter arises at several points in the Bill, so would it not be sensible to bring it all together in the same place?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: The purpose of the Committee is to explore how far one codifies at all and how far one codifies in particular ways. The theme today has been how far one can codify in a way that does not move the balance too far in the other direction, and prevent people being involved in something that we are all supporting—that is, to create lasting powers of attorney for all the right and obvious reasons. So we are negotiating in a sense, or discussing how and when it is best to put such matters into the legislation, with all that that brings, when it is best to consider these matters in other ways, and how far one can differentiate between different kinds of relationships and interests. There may be conflicts in one set of circumstances, but none in another. That is very important. I am not against the noble Lord's proposal, but we are trying to explore the matter—and that is the joy of Committee, if I may say so.
I turn to Amendment No. 58. We have sought to create certainty around the question of the attorney. The noble Earl rightly referred to the possibility of someone having an ongoing illness that means he lacks capacity, or someone who may have a fluctuating illness. The key point is whether the attorney lacks the capacity to carry out the duties of the attorney. That is the point that we have been searching for.
To give a very flippant example, but an example none the less, if an attorney were very drunk for an evening, one would be quite clear that he would not be able to
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carry out his duties. But of course, during that time, he may not be required to carry out the duties, so it does not apply. So we do not want to revoke powers of attorney for those circumstances. An attorney might have an accident and be unconscious for 12 hours, then perfectly fine thereafter. But we are keen to get some certainty into the process, because we do not want to create confusion in the minds of those who are going to be reliant on the powers of attorney operating correctly—not least, the financial instructions, which we described earlier. Our suggestion is that, in the case of an attorney with fluctuating capacity, or indeed with a long period of incapacity, it is better for the revocation of the power of attorney to be final, and for the ex-attorney to apply to the court for appointment as deputy if the court considers that to be in the person's best interests.
Having reconsidered the Bill, I am not sure that the current drafting is as helpful as it might be, so I will look at it and see whether we can clarify it further. We are seeking to be absolutely clear that the attorney must be able to carry out the duties of the attorney and, when that might not be possible for varying periods that could affect the situation, the power should be revoked, but with the opportunity to become a deputy if that were felt to be appropriate by the court. That is simply and precisely to give clarity to those on the receiving end of the attorney, if I may so describe it.
I turn to Amendment No. 79, proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, and the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart. I love the idea that we have put something in the Bill that even they, with all their amazing abilities in different ways, could not understand. I confess that I did not understand it either. But now I do, and once you do it becomes easier, certainly for those with a legal training and a legal mind. I am looking specifically at the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart. I suspect that he will start nodding when I make my next comments.
1.30 p.m.
Lasting powers of attorney are in law regarded as agents and are therefore affected by the law of agency as well as the provisions of the Bill. Noble Lords familiar with the law of agency—which I was not, but I am now—will know that it is sometimes necessary for the attorney to give the consent or authorisation of the donor before they can act. The obvious example is where the donee would like to purchase the donor's property. The donor would make it a condition of the power of attorney that the attorney must get their consent. In other words, if I wanted to buy the house of someone for whom I act as attorney, I would need to get their consent to do so. However, if they lack capacity, I cannot get their consent. Yet, it would be wrong for me to purchase their house without consent. In those circumstances, the court would step in and give the consent. So, it is a protection, but a protection in circumstances where the law of agency applies. Noble Lords could read Clause 23(2)(b) with that example in mind.
Lord Goodhart: I am a little concerned with that explanation. I think that a case where the donee was

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wishing to purchase the donor's property would be outside the functions of an agent and the donee would be purchasing not as agent but on his own account. I think that the donee could not under the law of agency then proceed to sell to himself. So it would be a transaction that was outside the agency altogether. So it would not, I would have thought, have had much to do with the law of agency. I see what is intended, though I am not sure that it is necessary.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I think that in that situation—and I am not a lawyer, as is about to become quite clear—you would be acting as both. You would not only be purchasing it for yourself but acting on behalf of the other person as their agent. You are therefore undoubtedly in a conflict. In those specific circumstances the court must intervene to ensure that it is done properly. That is my understanding of the situation, and we will ensure that that is the case. I saw that as the logic of the matter when I discovered that this provision was needed. There are times when one is acting both as agent for someone else and on one's own behalf. One cannot be in that conflicted situation, and therefore the courts must intervene.
The critical point is that it is about ensuring that people are properly looked after. So the courts will act appropriately and properly.
Baroness Greengross: Would not the other provisions about conflict of interest cover this point, rather than this specific provision? It seems to me an absolute conflict of interest, even if it is within the family.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: The noble Baroness is right to think that. But as we also know, it is important in primary legislation to ensure that there is a good fit with the other parts of the law. I will go away and see whether it could be done that way. However, I suspect that parliamentary counsel have included the provision because of the need to make it sufficiently clear so that lawyers looking at it will say, "I know what this means. This means that it must apply to the law of agency". As the wording did not carry that meaning for the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, I shall have to check it. However, as parliamentary counsel do not put in superfluous clauses, there must be a very important explanation for it. But I take the noble Baroness's point—which is one that I as a layperson would take.
It is also very important to say that the provision is solely about the consent or authorisation that the attorney needs in order to carry out their duties as an attorney. So it is not about giving or refusing consent on medical treatment. I hope that I have made that clear; I am not entirely certain that I have, but I hope that I have.
I turn to Amendments Nos. 40, 41, 42 and 43. I say to the noble Earl that our ambition on the prescribed person is that there will be someone who has known the donor for some time or is perhaps a professional. The certificate will say that, in their opinion, the donor understands the purpose of the instrument and the
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scope of the authority conferred upon it; that no fraud or undue pressure is being used; and that there is nothing else to prevent an LPA being created.
I have shied away from requiring that a professional do that because "professionals" quite often equals "fees". I am not terribly taken with making that a requirement. In my view, it is just as valid to allow someone who knows you well to fill in the form. I take the noble Earl's point on people understanding the importance of the matter. I will think about how we can ensure that that happens. Perhaps that is a matter of providing guidance to the person signing it. This is not the right analogy, but I know that, like me, the noble Earl will have been in the position of being asked to sign the back of a passport photograph to say that it is a true likeness. Neither he nor I would sign it if that was not true. When we witness signatures on wills and so on, we are very clear that we do so with a sense of responsibility. I think that that is very important.
I am not sure that I want to go further by saying that the form has to be signed by a particular type of person. I do not want to base this purely on professionalism. We are also asking people for their opinion. This is by no means the only safeguard; it is a part of the process. That is my current position and where I hope to remain. However, I am willing to listen to what other noble Lords say.
Noble Lords have made the point that relatives are likely to be beneficiaries of the donor's will. I like the comment of the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, that, "Where there's a will, there's a relative". That has to be one to remember. I do not want to prevent anyone appointing a relative merely because there might be a conflict of interest. It is possible, indeed probable, that noble Lords here today who take out—as I hope they will—a lasting power of attorney will appoint someone who will be a beneficiary in one way or another. They may not know that they will be a beneficiary, but they probably will be. It is difficult for a certificate provider to determine the likelihood of a conflict arising without knowing the contents of the donor's will. I am not entirely sure that it is appropriate that they should be given that information. I am nervous about that.
I am also keen not to deter people from wanting to provide the certification. Much of this is about getting people to understand the importance and relevance of these documents while trusting in the good sense of most people. I recognise issues of vulnerability, but we are also talking about ensuring that we give people the right safeguards and flexibility.
Lord Alton of Liverpool: I am sorry to interrupt the Minister again, but these are important questions. She has been very helpful in assisting us to explore them. She referred earlier to a situation where, for example, a house might be sold over the head of the person who previously lived there because they lost their capacity. As she said, in many cases a relative will be acting on behalf of someone with their wishes and will do so in a loving and caring way. However, we are all aware of circumstances where someone is given permission by the court which, on the face of it, seems a reasonable enough decision, that person comes to own the

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property, and then he acts to evict from the home the person without capacity. Perhaps the person without capacity will be put into residential accommodation and have a much inferior standard of life than he had previously. That may be very much against what his primary wishes would have been. What will we be able to do about such cases?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: The noble Lord has raised some very important points. I would say two things. First, above everything else, the Bill's theme and core is that the attorney must act in the best interests of the person concerned. The scenario that the noble Lord painted clearly would not be in the person's best interests. Therefore, the power of attorney could be revoked and the force of law could take its place.
Secondly, we have created in the Bill a new criminal offence involving wilful neglect of the individual. This is meant specifically to capture circumstances in which an individual may be neglected—not physically harmed, but neglected—as a consequence of the actions of an attorney or anyone else. That will be a criminal offence that will carry a sentence.
We are seeking to say that we recognise that, in the vast majority of cases, attorneys will act in the best interests of the individual in a loving and caring way—which is great—but that we also have to guard against circumstances where someone, whoever they are, whether an attorney or someone else, does not do so. We need the weight of law to protect that individual. We hope to achieve the combination of those two things. The noble Lord is right—we need to get a balance in those two areas. We do not want to prevent or deter people from taking powers of attorney or from wishing to be attorneys, never mind signing the certificate, but we also want to assure that protections are in place.
Baroness Greengross: I am sorry to intervene as everyone is hungry, but I shall be quick. We talked about bankruptcy but there are other considerations. It may not be a case of someone being bankrupt. Would wilful neglect cover someone who puts an older person who is frail and vulnerable into very cheap accommodation as opposed to expensive accommodation, as the former person knows that he or she will benefit from doing that at a later stage?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: We are running ahead of ourselves. We will debate this matter later. It would depend on the circumstances. It depends what the noble Baroness means by cheap accommodation and expensive accommodation. However, it is difficult to say that that situation incorporates the best interest test and therefore the attorney's powers could be revoked and he or she would have no control over what happened to the individual in question. One way or another those circumstances are covered in the Bill, whether it is a question of neglect or best interest.
I shall be brief as I am neglecting the need of Members of the Committee to take refreshment. Amendment No. 41 seeks to include particular reference to the mental incapacity of the donor when the prescribed person makes the certificate. I reassure the noble Earl that the
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Bill already requires that the prescribed person certifies that, in his opinion, the donor understands the purpose of the instrument and the scope of the authority conferred under it. As the noble Earl would expect, I want to avoid the label "mental incapacity" in the Bill because it does not fit with what we seek to do.
We have ensured that if, in the opinion of the person providing the certificate, the donor does not understand that he is creating a lasting power of attorney, he will not be able to provide a certificate. Without the certificate the lasting power of attorney cannot be registered. We have done it that way round. A certificate is awarded when the donor says that he has understood what he is doing. If a certificate is not awarded because that is not considered to be the case, the lasting power of attorney cannot be registered. I hope that the noble Earl considers that we achieve the same outcome but from a different direction.
In Amendment No. 42 the noble Earl seeks penalties for incorrect certification. I am sure that the noble Earl seeks to deter someone from lying in a certificate rather than to catch people who fill it in incorrectly. However, he will understand that I do not want to deter people from providing a certificate because they fear a mistake on their part or that a challenge to their opinion might result in a fine or criminal sentence. I am sure that the noble Earl does not want that either. We need to make clear that this is an important thing to do. The donor needs to think carefully about who he or she invites to certify this provision. The provision of a certificate is an important safeguard which in most cases will be made by honest people with integrity. We want to support this and not undermine it. If it were the only measure upon which one was relying, I could understand the desire to include many more safeguards, but that is not the case.
We have discussed various measures today, for example, ticking boxes, certifying in a particular way, filling in a form in a particular way, the Explanatory Notes that we provide and guidance that is given to the donor, the donee and the person providing the certification. We are trying to build all those things into the appropriate safeguards.
Amendment No. 43 seeks to remove the requirement that the certificate includes any prescribed information. We propose that the prescribed information will include explanations about the purpose of the lasting power of attorney and the meaning of the certificate on the face of the certificate. This is intended to ensure that the maker of a certificate knows exactly what he or she is signing and the legal effect of the lasting power of attorney that is being created. The maker of a certificate should understand the seriousness of the action that he or she is taking.
I hope that I have gone at least some way to address all of the points that have been made today. I am very happy to continue discussions on these issues between now and Report. I hope that the noble Earl will withdraw the amendment.
Earl Howe: Once again I am very grateful to the noble Baroness and to Members of the Committee for what they have said in relation to these amendments. I am particularly glad that Amendment No. 40

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attracted the support that it did. The noble Lord, Lord Alton, is, of course, right that conflict of interest is an issue that extends across a number of areas in the Bill. We shall return to that theme shortly.
The noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, raised a dimension of the issue about which she is supremely qualified to speak. I must say that it was not a point that I had focused on myself. I hope that we can pursue that matter between now and Report. I refer to the concerns raised by CSCI.
I am grateful to the Minister in relation to what she said about Amendments Nos. 41 to 43. She was most helpful. I agree with her that we do not necessarily want to stipulate that it should be a professional person who signs the certificate. That would create unnecessary costs and barriers. But at the same time if someone signs a certificate in bad faith, I am sure most of us would feel that there ought to be a penalty for doing that.
I speak from ignorance but I would be extremely surprised if there were not penalties associated with someone who deliberately made a false statement when certifying someone's passport application or an application for a shotgun certificate and did so either when he should have known better or when he had not made the proper inquiries, or when the statement was an out-and-out lie. I would be surprised if there were not penalties associated with doing that so there was a real deterrent in law. The matter that we are discussing is to my mind equally serious. I hope that it can be clarified.
The noble Baroness is right—what is being asked for here is an opinion; it is not necessarily a matter of fact. It is not possible for someone to know the contents of someone else's will, and not desirable either. Nevertheless that does not prevent an opinion being given whether there is, or is likely to be, a material conflict of interest.
1.45 p.m.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I am sorry to interrupt the noble Earl but I want to make a distinction. When one signs the back of a passport photo to confirm that it is a photo of the relevant person, or when one confirms a signature, those are facts. However, the matter that we are discussing concerns opinion. How would one ever know whether the opinion of the person making the certificate was wrong, false or that he or she lied? I would be interested to hear how the noble Earl considers we could deal with that issue in the same way as we deal with facts. By the way, I have no idea what the penalties are for giving false information in relation to a person's passport. It is a question of facts versus opinions, which is a difficult issue to resolve.
Earl Howe: I take that point but if the noble Baroness pursues my example of the application for a shotgun licence, you are passing an opinion that the person who is applying for that licence is a suitable person to hold it. I have had occasion to refuse to give
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such an opinion as the person applying was not in my opinion a suitable person to have a shotgun. There are probably parallels elsewhere.
I turn briefly to Amendment No. 58. If the test of capacity of the donee is, as the noble Baroness said, a matter of fact in all the circumstances at a particular juncture, that is a very helpful clarification. However, if that is so, we need to look at the drafting a little more closely to make that point clear. The question then arises, at what point does a temporary period of incapacity become significant and then trigger a revocation of the power? Reading the Bill, I do not think that we are very close to answering that question. Therefore, we should reconsider it. However, the time is drawing on and it is the moment for me to beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 41 to 50 not moved.]
Schedule 1 agreed to.
Baroness Andrews: I beg to move that the House do now resume. In doing so, I suggest that the Committee stage begin again not before 2.50 p.m.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House resumed.

Local Authorities' Plans and Strategies (Disapplication) (England) Order 2005
1.50 p.m.
Lord Rooker Lord Rooker rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 10 January be approved [4th Report from the Joint Committee].
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this order disapplies seven statutory plan requirements for local authorities that are rated "excellent" under the comprehensive performance assessment. The order was introduced by the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister following consultation both with external stakeholders and other departments that have responsibility for legislation that is amended by the order. It was laid before both Houses between 30 June and 8 November 2004, along with documents containing an explanation of the policy proposals and details of the consultation.
No representations were received during that period. Some slight changes were made subsequently to the draft order, following amendments to the Children Bill and discussions with counsel to the Chairman of Committees in another place, resulting in the draft order that is now before the House. The changes were fully discussed with departments in the lead on the relevant legislation. I shall explain these changes shortly.
It might be helpful to the House if I summarise the background and purpose of the order so that there are no misunderstandings. It is part of a package of freedoms and flexibilities for excellent local authorities. In our White Paper, Strong Local Leadership—Quality Public Services, published in December 2001, the Government

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announced their intention to increase local authorities' room for action, giving them the powers and freedom that they need to innovate and shape services in ways that respond to and meet local needs. Among other things, the White Paper highlighted that the plethora of central controls had at times become counterproductive, with councils having to produce some 66 separate plans and strategies. We promised to cut the number of plans for all authorities by 50 per cent, and to provide further cuts for the highest performing authorities identified under the comprehensive performance assessment. Cross-departmental agreement was reached subsequently in November 2002 to cut the separate number of plans by a further 75 per cent, and to reduce to the absolute minimum those that excellent authorities would need to produce.
The reduction in plans has been facilitated by various means. Some plans have now been subsumed within wider overarching strategies, and departments are using other mechanisms for monitoring authorities' performances and assessing funding bids. Other plans have been removed under recent Acts of Parliament. For example, the majority of plans for children and young people's social services and education will be removed on commencement of the Children Act 2004. That will repeal seven statutory plans, including the adoption services plan, which was in the previous draft of the order and has now been removed, and it will remove several non-statutory plan requirements for all children services authorities. It will introduce an overarching children and young people's plan. However, excellent authorities will not be required to produce the plan.
It is not always possible, however, to find a convenient Bill as a means to remove a plan that authorities are obliged to prepare because of a requirement under primary legislation. So where it had been agreed to remove certain other statutory plans, the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister thought it appropriate to use the powers under Section 6 of the Local Government Act 2000 to do so; hence the present order.
The order applies to local authorities categorised as "excellent" under the comprehensive performance assessment by an order under Section 99(4) of the Local Government Act 2003. It disapplies seven separate obligations to prepare, produce, or publish, as the case may be, the following plans and strategies: the publication of homelessness strategies, required under the Homelessness Act 2002; submission of home energy conservation reports, required under the Home Energy Conservation Act 1995; preparation of youth justice plans, required by the Crime and Disorder Act 1998; preparation and publication of rights of way improvement plans, required under the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000; preparation of local transport plans and bus strategies, required under the Transport Act 2000; and preparation of plans for air quality, required under the Environment Act 1995.
I emphasise, for the avoidance of any doubt, which I am sure will not occur in this House, but might outside, that the order does not remove the requirement for excellent local authorities to continue to plan
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effectively in all those areas with their partners, but it provides flexibility for them to plan in a way that suits their purposes, allowing them to focus on local priorities. So the work carries on; but the requirement for the publication of these plans has been removed. Indeed, exempted authorities may continue to produce plans or strategies under statutory processes as if they were not exempted, if they choose to do so. It is up to them; that is they key point. The work must carry on; if they want to produce a plan it is up to them, but they no longer have to do so.
The order also provides transitional periods for authorities that cease to be rated "excellent" under the comprehensive performance assessment. Those authorities will have at least a year to try to recover their "excellent" rating before the various statutory plan requirements re-apply. In most cases, statutory guidance or timetables will inform them when the next plan should be finalised or submitted to Government. Those transitional arrangements are among the changes added to the order following consultations, and they have been agreed by the relevant departments.
The order was the subject of consultation carried out between November 2003 and January 2004. We received 74 responses to the consultation, including from the Local Government Association. There were replies from 22 excellent local authorities, 12 other local authorities and 40 other organisations or individuals. Most local authorities and the LGA supported the proposals. Several excellent authorities noted that the proposals demonstrated an increased level of trust between central and local government. They welcomed the freedom to plan in a non-prescriptive manner that focused on local priorities and cut out wasteful bureaucratic activity. Their concerns centred on the limited impact of the proposals if prescriptive practices imposed by central government, such as the linking of funding to plans and centrally-imposed targets, remained. Some asked that authorities that wished to continue to produce plans within the statutory format be given the power to do so.
In general, most non-local authority respondents were not in favour of the proposals. There was some acknowledgement that the cumulative plan burden on local authorities had been too great, but these respondents did not want the specific requirements in which they had an interest to be disapplied. Several respondents were concerned that exempted authorities would not continue to consult or plan for services for which statutory plan duties were removed. Others were concerned that information vital for their own or for central government purposes could be lost. There was also some concern that services would lose out in terms of local priority and funding if plan requirements were removed.
The Government have made it clear from the outset of plan rationalisation that removing requirements to produce written plans for central government should in no way detract from the importance of effective planning for the delivery of services. We still expect authorities to consult with partners and ensure the participation of the public and service users. The

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removal of statutory plan requirements simply gives authorities and their partners more flexibility to decide how they go about the process.
As a result of responses to the consultation, we made a number of changes to the order. I have already mentioned the addition of transitional arrangements and the removal of the adoption services plan. To clear up any uncertainty, in response to concerns about ongoing consultation on improving rights of way, we have also added a requirement on authorities not producing a rights of way improvement plan to consult the bodies listed in the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 when formulating their rights of way improvement policies.
To sum up, we trust excellent authorities to plan well. That is one reason why they are excellent. If they do not carry on performing in an excellent way, they risk losing their "excellent" performance status and are then back to having to produce the plans. We are sure that the freedom to plan without obligatory adherence to prescribed frameworks will only assist in the process and reduce unnecessary burdens on authorities. I commend the order, including this bonfire of controls, to the House. I beg to move.
Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 10 January be approved [4th Report from the Joint Committee].—(Lord Rooker.)
Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing the statutory instrument in the way in which he did, and for giving details of the consultation. It is amazing how few responses come in to what one might expect to be a major issue. We have had debates about consultation before on some of our legislation from the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister, and it always astonishes me how little people wake up to the fact that something will have an influence.
This is a pretty mixed bag of issues. The plans look as though they have been plucked at random from various Acts which impinge on local government from across government. The Minister said that they have been carefully thought out, but how did the particular plans come to be selected? What rational thought lies behind the choice of the plans that the Government are producing?
One of the Government's promises, on the introduction of the comprehensive performance assessments in 2002, was that high-performing or excellent councils would have the number of plans that they had to produce cut back, and this is a start on that. There was also a promise that the number of inspection regimes would be reduced. There has been an unfulfilled expectation that the promise of a three-year inspection holiday for good councils would be implemented. Neither the full holiday reduction in inspections nor a significant reduction in plans has been carried out. I am bound to say that I do not think that the very small tranche of plans in the order contributes much to improve that situation.
It is argued that the comprehensive performance assessment is a blunt weapon to keep local government up to standard. It is evident too, from the expectation
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in the order, that some of those councils considered at the moment to be high-performing or excellent and thus able to dispense with having the plans in written form—may fail on the way. They may bounce back up again, however, before having to start thinking about putting together the plans from which had they not lost their status they would otherwise be exempt.
This is a strange way to run business. Let us be frank—either statutory plans are necessary or they are not. If they are a necessary requirement, they are necessary for everyone. If they are not a requirement, they should not be a requirement for any authority— good, bad or indifferent. The only rationale that there can be for having the written plans is for the Government to follow what is going on across the country, if they insist or think that there is a reason for them to do so.
We do not oppose the order, although we are slightly bewildered by it. However, I want to ask the Minister a couple of questions. Why is it relevant for some authorities and not others to produce the plans? Why was this tranche of plans dusted out of the cupboard? When is it intended that others will follow? Why are any plans at all still being sought from excellent councils, in view of the Government's pledge in 2002 that that requirement would be removed from the greater majority? When will the Government admit that the comprehensive performance assessment policy, with its expensive and still extensive inspection regimes, is an albatross round the neck of local government?
Baroness Scott of Needham Market: My Lords. I thank the Minister. On this very cold day, I got little warmth from the bonfire of regulation that he set forth—it was a pretty paltry bonfire. Local authorities were promised that, when the comprehensive performance assessment came in, they would receive all sorts of freedoms and flexibilities. As a local authority councillor, I know that we held our breath and waited and waited. All sorts of freedoms would have been very useful to local authorities—freedom from ring-fenced grants and the raft of inspection regimes, and so on.
When the freedoms and flexibilities came through, those freedoms were for only the very few excellent authorities, not the very many that are good, for example. All sorts of financial freedoms simply did not come forward. There was very much a sense at the time that the Government were having to cast around pretty quickly for some freedoms that they could give at relatively little cost, so they came up with the idea of freedom from plans. I share the noble Baroness's slightly perplexed attitude—plans are either necessary or not, and were either necessary or not. Some of them have been relatively recently brought in, such as right of way plans, which were brought in in 2002. One has to ask why on earth they were brought in in the first place if they could be so easily dispensed with.
The Minister is right to say that the work carries on regardless. He went on to say that the policy gave excellent authorities more flexibility to respond to local needs. On these Benches, we argue that all local

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authorities should have the ability to respond flexibly to local needs, not merely the very few that are excellent. I hope that the Minister might consider at least extending some of the flexibilities to the good authorities, which have demonstrated on the whole that they are doing a good job. They have been externally assessed. Perhaps the Government should consider the default position to be that government intervention and a requirement for rigid planning should be restricted to those authorities that have been assessed and found to be weak. The default position should be that local government should be trusted and allowed to get on with the job.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I confess to some astonishment at the less than full-hearted support that the order has received. There are some really poor local authorities—weak and poor, as classified by the Audit Commission, not the Government. I am not sure that either noble Baroness is saying that we should let them have their bonfire as well. You cannot treat authorities all the same, because they are not. I take it that there is a fair case to be made for authorities that are good, bordering on excellent, because they are obviously striving to be excellent. However, there are plenty of excellent authorities. We have to say, "You've got to prove yourself as an excellent authority, and we—the Government—won't put all this red tape and these extra burdens on you because you've shown that you can do the job". Removing the requirement to produce the plans does not in any way alter the requirement to do the work and provide the services to people. If authorities do not, they will lose their "excellent" classification and it will put them back to "good". Then they will be required to have more red tape and do things in a very prescriptive way. I made that point.
The order is not a mixed bag. I explained the seven plans by saying that there has not been a suitable legislative vehicle around to act in this way. We wanted to fulfil our commitment and have the reduction as soon as possible. Lots of other changes have been dealt with as Bills have gone through; they have been wrapped up in various clauses and schedules. If you like, the order is a residual bag of those matters with which we have not been able to deal by any other means, which is why we decided to go for the order.
We are providing further freedoms. The noble Baroness, Lady Scott, mentioned ring-fenced grants. I am not sure—perhaps it is in the notes—but, to the best of my knowledge, there are virtually next to no ring-fenced grants for local authorities any more. We have cut back massively on ring-fencing over the past few years. I am not saying that there is now none at all but it is at nothing like the level that it was seven, or indeed five, years ago. So we are providing further freedoms for the highest performing authorities. We want authorities to strive to become highest performing authorities because they then get more freedom to deliver the services in the way they want. If they are not high-performing authorities, it is our duty as government to ensure that services to the public are delivered in the best way possible—hence, the central government controls.
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With regard to a reduction in the number of inspections for excellent authorities, there will be virtually no compulsory inspections. The order concerning the power to trade for fair, good and excellent authorities came into effect on 29 July last year. We have streamlined the requirements on best value performance plans for both good and excellent authorities, and we are currently consulting on provisions allowing good and excellent authorities to spend, on any service, income obtained from fixed-penalty notices for dog fouling and litter.
So there are some areas where we can claim movement in the right direction—perhaps not a massive amount but movement none the less. This order is basically part of a wider package because we could not find another parliamentary way of decreasing bureaucracy. The number of inspections in councils during 2004–05 will fall by more than 30 per cent compared with 2002–03.
There is more freedom to borrow and invest. The new prudential borrowing system began in April 2004 and authorities are free to borrow for capital projects without government consent. Councils have also been given increased freedom to invest.
We have deregulated 63 consent regime powers. Through new powers, we have provided all authorities with greater flexibility and opportunities to charge for discretionary services. We simply cannot say that all authorities are to be treated the same—they are not, and I think we have to appreciate that that is the case. There are a limited number of cases where we consider central government have a legitimate need for formal plans. Even in those that are not required to submit plans, they must still do the work.
I take the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, about the number of responses to the consultation. This House is not too interested in the work of the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister. I can tell that from the number of parliamentary Questions that I get and also from the number of debates initiated and so on. That is not to say that that work is not important but there are other matters which the House considers more important. There is a mechanism for responding to the consultation and we have taken on board the points raised.
This issue has been in both Houses for quite a while. There has been no parliamentary pressure to deal with it because there has been no pressure from outside. I think we have satisfied the voluntary sector and the pressure groups which wanted the plan to continue because they have a role in it. We have convinced them that the work must continue in the excellent authorities. They are not to use the fact that they are excellent authorities as an excuse not to participate and consult their partners. We have every confidence in them and trust them to carry on the work that they were doing previously as excellent authorities. We are saying that part of the price for that is less bureaucracy from Whitehall. I think that that is a good thing.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Local Authorities (Contracting Out of BID Levy Billing, Collection and Enforcement Functions) Order 2004
2.13 p.m.
Lord Rooker Lord Rooker rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 15 December 2004 be approved. [4 th Report from the Joint Committee].
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this order is made under Sections 70 and 77 of, and Schedule 16 to, the Deregulation and Contracting Out Act 1994. The order provides for billing authorities in England and Wales to authorise other persons to exercise functions relating to the administration and enforcement of the business improvement district (BID) levy.
First, I need to draw your Lordships' attention to a minor technical matter in relation to the draft order. Noble Lords will note that the title and citation refer to the year 2004. That reflects the date when the draft order was laid but, because the order takes the year when it is made, the references to 2004 will need to be changed to 2005. That is a normal part of the process. A Bill is introduced one year and becomes an Act in another. No amendment is necessary as the change is made in the normal course of events.
The order is of interest primarily to billing authorities. We consulted the Local Government Association, which agreed that the order was not contentious but simply extended powers already enjoyed by billing authorities. This is not new policy. It was therefore agreed that a full consultation was not necessary.
The order complements the business improvement district regulations, which came into force last September. Those regulations allow local authorities and local businesses to work together for the benefit of their local community. BID schemes could include a wide range of different measures for improving the places where people work and live. That might involve increasing security or cleanliness, improving public access and the street environment, or enhancing or promoting the town centre or business area in other ways.
Those improvements would be funded by a levy raised on the non-domestic ratepayers, or a defined class of ratepayers, in the area covered by the scheme. However, before any proposal goes ahead, the businesses concerned have the opportunity to vote in a ballot. Since September, there have been three BID ballots, all of which were successful. The first was in Kingston upon Thames; more recently, there was one in the heart of London covering the Piccadilly Circus and Leicester Square area; and, within the past day or so, we have heard of the success of another London BID, known as Better Bankside.
The billing authorities in those areas—that is, the Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames, Westminster City Council and Southward Borough Council—will shortly be collecting the BID levy as agreed in the ballots. Your Lordships will be interested to know that a further five BID schemes are out to ballot at the moment and another four are expected to go to ballot shortly.
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Existing legislation enables billing authorities in England and Wales to contract out their collection and enforcement functions relating to non-domestic business rates. Around 40 authorities out of the 384 make use of these existing provisions. This order will allow billing authorities to do the same in collecting the business improvement district levy. Of the 22 billing authorities with BID pilots in their area, three—namely, Plymouth, Bromley and Liverpool—already contract out their non-domestic rates collection function. So this is nothing new and I therefore commend the order to the House. I beg to move.
Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 15 December 2004 be approved. [4th Report from the Joint Committee].—(Lord Rooker.)
Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I think that this order is unexceptional and I do not oppose it in any way.
Baroness Scott of Needham Market: My Lords, we also support it from these Benches.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Representation of the People (Variation of Limits of Candidates' Election Expenses) (City of London) Order 2005
2.17 p.m.
Lord Rooker Lord Rooker rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 9 December 2004 be approved. [3rd Report from the Joint Committee].
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this order is intended to increase the maximum limits of expenditure of candidates standing at ward elections and elections by liverymen in common hall in the City of London—that is, the Corporation of London. The order applies only to that; it does not apply to what we normally understand as local government.
The current limits for such City of London elections are laid down in the Representation of the People Act 1983, and they were last changed in 1997. Clearly everyone will be aware that the value of money has changed a little since that time. We have not had the rampant inflation suffered by, and under, previous Labour and Tory governments—let us make no bones about that.
Under Section 197(3) of the Representation of the People Act 1983, the relevant Secretary of State—in this case, the Deputy Prime Minister—has power to vary the maximum limits of such election expenses where, in his view, there has been a change in the value of money since the last occasion on which such limits were set. It is clear to the Deputy Prime Minister that there has been a change in the value of money since the limits were last set almost eight years ago, as evidenced by changes to the GDP deflator figures, which show an increase of 21.38 per cent.

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To reflect that change in the value of money, the Government are proposing that the maximum limits for ward elections are increased from £219.043 per elector to £266.052 per elector and, for elections by liverymen in common hall, that the limits are increased from 23.3 pence per elector to 28.3 pence per elector. The draft order, when approved, would give effect to the Government's proposal.
I shall say a brief word on why the City is treated differently. The legislation makes provision for elections in the City of London which is different from that for other local authority elections. That is set out in Sections 191 to 198 of the 1983 Act. In relation to election expenses for candidates in local government elections and parliamentary elections, the Secretary of State has powers to make an order either to take into account a change in the value of money or to give effect to a recommendation from the Electoral Commission. The commission has more options in that it may recommend an increase or a decrease that is below or above the change in the value of money; or no change at all.
The Government have asked the Electoral Commission for its view on what the maximum limits should be for local government and parliamentary elections with a view to bringing forward another order in time for all this year's elections. The commission published its recommendation on 14 January. The Government are grateful to the commission for the work it has done and we are considering very carefully the recommendations it has made.
However, there are no powers in legislation for the Government to seek or to give effect to a recommendation from the Electoral Commission for the City of London. To be honest, it slipped through the net; otherwise, it would be wrapped up with everything else. That is the reason why we require this special order. I commend the order to the House.
Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 9 December 2004 be approved[3rd Report from the Joint Committee] —(Lord Rooker.)
Baroness Hanham: My Lords, this is much the most interesting of the three orders before the House today because it is unusual. It is not every day that one has the opportunity to discuss the City of London's affairs, even though it is to raise election expenses—twopence is twopence.
The order is welcome. As the noble Lord has said, this is the first uprating since 1997 and the City Corporation has made it known that it would prefer successive adjustments, which these days we must assume to be upwards, to take place at four yearly intervals, particularly as the electoral period for ward elections to the Common Council will, from this year, be for four years. I believe that in the past they have been annual.
The uprating is in line with the change in the value of money, as the Minister has pointed out. There is no quarrel to that approach from anyone. However, I would just add a comment about the suggestion, which arose from the consultation, that the City should be
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aligned with local authorities generally, and that proposals for future upratings should be included as part of the recommendations made by the Electoral Commission in respect of local authority elections.
It is true that within the City of London, the Common Council exercises the functions of a local authority. The City Corporation is a composite organisation, which is reflected in the range of activities its members carry out. The existing legislation makes a distinction between local government elections and elections in the City, no doubt reflecting the distinctive nature of the administration in the City. Many of the City's electoral arrangements are also governed by private Acts. I think the initial inspections were brought about by a ballot Act in 1887, although I may be wrong about the date. It will be necessary to take careful account of these factors in deciding whether the City fits into a more generalised provision governing local authorities. Apart from those views from the City, I confirm that the order has our support.
Baroness Scott of Needham Market: My Lords, we on these Benches also support the order. I have one question for the Minister. It appears that a wait of something like eight years to uprate is quite significant. If one of my noble friends who understands more about the economy than I do were here, no doubt he would be able to say exactly what the uprating was and what the inflation rate has been since then. I do not know. Nevertheless, it seems to me that eight years is quite a long wait and it seems rather odd that it is entirely up to the Secretary of State to decide whether he believes there has been enough of a cost-of-living increase. Perhaps there might be some merit in considering an automatic four-yearly upgrade.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I fully accept the point. Eight years is probably an unacceptable time to wait. I asked why on earth I am using parliamentary time to bring forward an order relating to this important point, although, in the scale of things, it is not that supreme. As I have said, it is 21 per cent over eight years, which shows the stability of the economy. Over the eight years we have had an inflation rate that at one time occurred in one year when I was in the other place. So there has been a big success in dealing with the economy.
The fact is that this matter slipped through the net. In some future local government legislation it should be possible to ensure that the City is treated fairly with others, so that there is more flexibility to do this as and when required. The City of London is a unique institution. As I have made clear, it is not like normal local government—I do not say that in any critical way. Surely, when dealing with maximum election expenses, as we do for everyone else—Members of Parliament, county councillors and district councillors—the City should be part of the normal process which we are all used to. I see nothing peculiar about that. Those in the City should not have to wait eight years and they should not have uncertainty about the issue either.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
[The Sitting was suspended from 2.25 to 2.50 p.m.]

Mental Capacity Bill
House again in Committee.
Clause 10 [Appointment of donees]:
[Amendment No. 51 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.]
Baroness Barker Baroness Barker moved Amendment No. 52:
Page 5, line 39, at end insert—
"( ) If an individual who is bankrupt is appointed and registered as a welfare attorney, and a care decision involves a cost to the donor, it shall be a duty on the public body proposing or arranging such care to arrange the involvement of an independent consultee under sections 34 to 39 of this Act.
( ) An individual whose name is registered on a list under section 81 of the Care Standards Act 2000 (c. 14) (duty of Secretary of State to keep list) shall not be appointed as a donee of a lasting power of attorney unless the donor has had an opportunity to ascertain whether the proposed donee is included in such a list."
The noble Baroness said: I feel particularly strongly that we should consider Amendment No. 52 at some length. The architecture of the Bill makes a clear and express difference between welfare LPAs and financial LPAs. This is a distinct change from the current system of enduring powers of attorney. In some ways, it is a welcome distinction. In the life of somebody who lacks capacity there are usually two main areas of concern. Very often they will be quite distinct and separate.
However, it occurred to me when reading the Bill a few days ago that while there is a certain elegance to that distinction, it does not sufficiently reflect real life. The noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, is, like me and the noble Earl, Lord Howe, a veteran of many debates in your Lordships' House on charging for care services. Increasingly, care services will have to be paid for.
Therefore, it is difficult to see how one can draw such an arbitrary distinction between welfare and financial decisions. I quite understand—and I appreciate that in drawing up the Bill the Government have said that one may wish a member of one's family or a close relative—somebody one trusts—to be the person to make decisions about one's welfare. However, it is not inconceivable that a bankrupt person could be registered as the welfare attorney and could be called upon to make a care decision but would have a clear financial interest in it.
I take the obvious example of the child of an elderly parent who may become involved in a decision about which care home the parent goes into. If that person was likely to be a beneficiary of the parent's will, probably in the not too distant future, that would be a classic conflict of interest—a matter we talked about before the House resumed. Therefore, we contend with this amendment that a bankrupt should not be the key person making decisions about care matters which have such an overt financial consideration.
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I took to heart some of the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, before lunch. These may not be big decisions involving considerable sums of money for residential care. They may be much smaller, involving, for example, domiciliary care, although the costs of domiciliary care are not inconsiderable these days. That is the principle motivation for tabling Amendment No. 52. The amendment has the support of a number of the organisations in the Making Decisions Alliance.
During the afternoon, as we work our way through the amendments like the good anoraks that we are, we shall go over a whole range of matters in which different bodies will be exercising decisions about welfare and decisions which will have cost implications. For example, when we reach court-appointed deputies, we may be talking about local authorities. They are providers of care which charge for care, and which may, as a deputy, have a charge over an incapacitated person's affairs.
ResCare—the organisation which represents carers of people with very severe learning difficulties—made one point very strongly to the Joint Committee. It cited quite clear cases where welfare decisions had been made by authorities solely on the basis of costs and not on the best interests of the individual. So, I am opening up the first front on an issue which we shall consider from a number of different aspects.
Amendments Nos. 59 and 60 relate to conflict of interest issues that we spoke about this morning but in a slightly different way. I beg to move.
Earl Howe: I should like to support the noble Baroness in all that she said in relation to Amendment No. 52, and to speak in a little more detail on the other two amendments grouped with it.
Amendment No. 59 is designed to deal with situations where the donee of a lasting power of attorney is found to have been placed on the POVA register at a date later than the date on which the LPA was created. That issue needs to be looked at carefully because it is by no means far-fetched.
Given that donees can make important, if not vital, decisions about the finances and the welfare of some of our most vulnerable citizens, there should be checks that the donee is a suitable person. The Making Decisions Alliance considers that a person who is naming an attorney to take decisions on his behalf should be able to do so with the full information that he needs. An opportunity for him to check the POVA register, if he so wished, would enable a donor to make an informed decision. As the donor has capacity, it is his decision whether he still wishes to choose a donee on such a register.
The Bill should provide for a situation where the donee is placed on the POVA register at a later date and the donor who has now lost capacity is not in a position to be aware of this change in the situation. In instances such as that, the Bill should allow for the appointment to be revoked. In another place, the Government made clear that they were considering whether LPAs and deputies should fall under the scope of the POVA register and I hope that the noble Baroness can throw some further light on that today.
3 p.m.
Baroness Andrews: I am grateful to noble Lords for explaining the purpose of their amendments. This group revisits some of our debates earlier today; it also anticipates some that we will have later when we consider conflict of interest, and so on. Essentially, the amendments are designed to ensure that people who lose capacity have the best possible protection. We completely agree and sympathise with that intention. It is imperative that those who may be very vulnerable should not be exposed to further vulnerability and should not be abused in any way. Of course we share those concerns.
However, before I address the amendments, I should say that there is a fine line to be trodden here between protecting vulnerable people and allowing them to make their own independent choices, as long as and as far as they can. The whole point of an LPA—its attractiveness—is that the person chooses someone who they believe they can trust. That decision should be respected, unless their behaviour gives rise to real concern. Again, we return to the issue of balance.
The noble Earl and the noble Baroness revisited some issues addressed by my noble friend. I hope that she was able to put some concerns at rest earlier concerning the POVA register and bankruptcy by putting them in context. I cannot add much to what my noble friend said about the POVA list, although I take the noble Earl's point about the dynamic, changing nature of situations.
I can add only that we have explained why the POVA list cannot be checked by the Public Guardian, by definition, because it was designed to ensure that people included on it are not recruited to work as care providers. That sits firmly within everything that we tried to do under the Care Standards Act 2000. That is, therefore, way beyond the scope of the Bill. However, as my noble friend said, we will consider an amendment to require attorneys to state that they are not on the POVA list. As my noble friend explained, David Lammy stated in another place that we are also considering whether the Government should introduce new arrangements to protect the vulnerable. We have heard what the noble Earl said and the instances that he has brought to our attention and will consider them.
On Amendment No. 52, on which the noble Baroness focused, we are grateful that she is working with the distinction and new provision that we are making for a welfare attorney. I think that that will be very positive. Although someone who is bankrupt cannot act as the attorney of a financial LPA, the Bill does not prevent him from acting as a welfare attorney. The amendment is intended to deal with the situation where the attorney of a welfare LPA who is bankrupt needs to make a decision about the care of the person lacking capacity. The noble Baroness is attempting to reduce the possibility of a wrong decision being made for the wrong reason. We heard earlier from the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, who is not in her place, the example of choosing to put someone in a cheaper residential home. She also raised issues about charging for services. Another complication is that the attorney
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may hope to inherit the donor's estate. The amendment suggests that an independent consultee be involved in such situations. I very much appreciate the concerns that have been raised.
Let me first address the instance of the independent consultee. Our main problem with the amendment is that we intend that the service provided by the independent consultee will be for major, life-changing situations where help, support and advocacy will be very important for people lacking capacity. That is what the Bill requires where the person lacking capacity has no family or friends—to use the bleak phrase, the unbefriended. As the noble Baroness knows, we have said that we will consult on situations additional to those set out in Clause 35 to 37 when an independent consultee should be involved. I do not want to prejudge that consultation, which I am sure will be very positive, but it is highly unlikely that we would want to involve an independent consultee when an attorney is already acting or for routine situations in the life of the person involved.
To think about the wider picture, when they have capacity, people will appoint only attorneys whom they trust to act in their best interest. We must think in commonsense terms. We must trust people's common sense not to appoint someone whom they suspect may be more interested in a future inheritance than their best interest. After all, we have some years of experience of enduring powers of attorney. Well established processes have been set up and there is no major evidence of abuse or non-functioning.
Also, we cannot legislate to make people good; but we can legislate to make the protection as robust as we can. When it comes to matters such as decisions whether to place people in inappropriate residential homes that are cheaper than they deserve or need, we must remember that the principle of the Bill is that an attorney must act in the person's best interests. If they fail to do so, if they propose to act in a way contrary to the person's best interest, the court can revoke the power.
The Bill should reduce the opportunity for such decisions to be made. We are confident that it will. I do not need to tell the noble Baroness about the conditions of residential care. People buy it, whether they are self-funding or are paid for by the local authority. If the person also appoints a welfare attorney, the finance and welfare attorneys will need to work together to agree on the residential care placement, considering the welfare and financial needs. As the noble Baroness said, sometimes it is difficult to separate those out. That joint approach will help to ensure that a person's best interests are respected.
We also have the Care Standards Act 2000, whereby the care home will accept a person only if it is an appropriate placement. You cannot simply dump an elderly relative in a care home if it is inappropriate. The Care Standards Act must be observed and the care must be appropriate. So there is a second order of protection. In any case, the Public Guardian will be working with other health and social care agencies. If he learns of any abuse—he may learn about it from other members of the

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family, the care worker, a neighbour, a friend, someone in the local church, or whatever—by an attorney in any way, he will investigate it.
If we are making such a strong case for the importance of an LPA and someone agreeing to act as an attorney, the donor might find it rather strange if a third party—the independent consultee—could at some point be called in to question the attorney's decisions. They might think that there was little point in appointing someone to make decisions for them if that person could be countermanded in some way.
Finally, it is extremely unlikely that someone who lacks capacity but has a reasonable income and capital—we will debate that a little later—will not have appointed a financial LPA or have required a financial deputy. A health and welfare deputy cannot make financial decisions themselves.
Therefore, given the balance that the Bill is intended to achieve the protections that are offered to deal with abuse and our argument about the independent consultee, I hope that the noble Baroness feels that she can withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Barker: I thank the noble Baroness for her customary full and considered response. I do not think that she will be surprised when I say that she has not fully answered the points that I made. Sometimes in my professional life, I talk to groups of pensioners. I am always amazed at the number who have not made a will. Half of the group say, "It's all right. My kids will sort it out". The other half say, "Oh no. You get your will sorted".
We are now in similar territory, which is why the route down which I am going is perhaps unfortunate. It is often strange to watch the way in which people behave when money is involved and how their actions and perceptions change. I am not trying to do down carers—possibly with financial difficulties—in any way. My proposal might be welcomed by people who are appointed as attorneys and find themselves having their judgments questioned, which are perhaps for very good welfare decisions. Some people may be happier in residential homes that cost a lot less just because they are near to and will see people they like.
I do not buy the argument given by the noble Baroness that people are deterred from becoming attorneys or from making lasting powers if they think that a third party will be involved. In that case, why will they have to be registered? It is fairly inevitable that they will be subject to some kind of scrutiny.
The noble Baroness is right to point out that whether this works properly rests a lot on the Office of the Public Guardian, but the sum total of her answer does not add up to the protection that I would like to see in place. I shall certainly consider what the noble Baroness said, but I may return to this issue. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 10 agreed to.
Clause 11 [Lasting powers of attorney: restrictions]:
[Amendments Nos. 53 to 55 not moved.]
Earl Howe Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 56:
Page 7, line 3, leave out from "treatment," to "and" in line 4.
The noble Earl said: In speaking to Amendment No. 56, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 74 and 75. In those amendments, I want to open up an issue that is of very considerable importance and concern to many people; that is, whether third parties should be able to make life-and-death decisions about an individual.
Clause 11(7) makes clear that a lasting power of attorney may include an authority to give or refuse consent to life-sustaining treatment, provided that the deed contains an express provision to that effect. While I know that that provision has met with widespread acceptance—I recognise all of the reasons why that is so—it is also fair to acknowledge that there are many who view it with disquiet.
The Bill is clear that a donee, and a deputy, has a legal right of veto in the event that life-sustaining treatment is proposed for an incapacitated person. That, I suggest, is an awesome responsibility, whoever the individual is. We need to make 100 per cent certain that it is appropriate. If we look around us, we can quite easily identify grounds for doubt based on human rights considerations. Article 2(1) of the European Convention states:
"Everyone's right to life shall be protected by law. No one shall be deprived of his life intentionally save in the execution of a sentence of a court following his conviction of a crime for which this penalty is provided by law".
That is fairly categorical.
The Joint Committee looked at that part of the convention. It found that although Article 2 imposes positive duties on the state to uphold an individual's right to life, a public authority cannot be compelled to impose treatment against a person's express wishes.
I think that we all understand and accept the point about a person's express wishes, but that is not the same thing, it seems to me, as a person's wishes as interpreted by a third party; namely, an attorney. All that an attorney can ever hope to do is to arrive at a judgment as to what he believes are the patient's best interests. That judgment is only that—a judgment. However honest and conscientious the decision is, it is not on a par with the express wishes of the patient, nor can it be. So although the Joint Committee came to the conclusion that Article 2 of the ECHR is not infringed by this part of the Bill, I venture to suggest that its conclusion may have been somewhat borderline. I should be interested to hear form the noble Lord, Lord Carter, whether that was so.
I have no problem with the idea that an attorney should be consulted by the treating doctor and that the patient's wishes, as expressed by the attorney, should carry weight in the decision that the doctor eventually reaches. Where I hesitate quite strongly is over a right of veto being conferred on someone who may have no

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medical qualifications and whose degree of authority in second-guessing a medical practitioner may therefore be highly questionable.
Turning to court deputies, the position of the Government is roughly this, if I do not misrepresent them. They argue that these powers could be useful in situations when, for example, someone needs a series of decisions to be made about a course of treatment and there are distressing and perhaps lengthy disputes between a doctor and the patient's family. Ministers have also pointed to the provision in Clause 20(6), which states that the authority granted to a deputy by the court to take decisions in this area is an express authority that it may confer,
"only if it is satisfied that the circumstances are exceptional".
With great respect to the Government, it is possible to look at that situation from the other end of the telescope. It seems that one could just as cogently argue that where one has a full-blown dispute between doctors and members of a family about whether or not to continue life-sustaining treatment, only a decision of the court can properly resolve it. Many would argue that only the court has the necessary impartiality and objectivity required for a decision of that gravity.
For the court to appoint a deputy to make those decisions on its behalf makes very little sense to me. I say that because in appointing the deputy the court would in any case have to consider the circumstances of the case. So it would be no greater burden for it to make a declaration about whether treatment should or should not be provided.
But, even setting that thought aside, there are other potential complications. The court might appoint one of the people involved in the dispute to make the necessary decision—either a family member or even, perhaps, the doctor. You do not have to have much imagination to realise what scope that would afford to exacerbate the dispute, whichever way the matter eventually turned out.
A court decision attempts to balance and resolve differing viewpoints and to arrive at a considered conclusion. There is no telling whether a court deputy would be able to mirror that process or take a decision that all parties would be able to accept. It is an invidious thing to impose on the shoulders of any individual.
I quite strongly believe that however conscientious a deputy is, there is and will always be the worry that he or she may not succeed in taking the informed and dispassionate view of the matter which a court must necessarily take. It is for those reasons that we need to look at those provisions again. I beg to move.
3.15 p.m.
Lord Carter: I have added my name to Amendment No. 74 precisely for the reason just outlined by the noble Earl, Lord Howe. In fact, the discussions and subsequent recommendation of the Joint Committee were not borderline.
A number of witnesses were dismayed that deputies' powers would extend to refusing consent to the carrying out or continuation of medical treatment. We handed in a minute from the Foundation for People with Learning
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Disabilities. On an earlier amendment, noble Lords will recall that I mentioned recently published research about the reduced life expectancy of people with learning disabilities. The thought is there—I put it no stronger than that—that subliminally, in taking decisions about a course of treatment, the withdrawal of treatment or other medical intervention for people with learning disabilities, the person taking the decision could be affected by the fact that the patient had a learning disability.
I shall quote from the evidence submitted by the foundation:
"if deputies can make a decision regarding withdrawal of treatment, the decisions need to go to court and be very, very seriously considered. I think the withdrawal of nutrition and hydration is a very painful experience and that if people choose to in their advance directive that is one thing, but to assume that for someone who does not have the capacity undermines their right to life".
We also heard interesting evidence from the Catholic Union:
"it is highly likely that such an appointee will be some official such as the chief Social Worker for the area concerned. Thus the chief Social Worker for the area is likely to be making decisions about the provision of treatment (or even sustenance by tube) to the patient, and thus perhaps making decisions about whether that patient should continue to live or not, even though that social worker is not medically qualified and has no medical duty of care. That is clearly a matter for considerable concern".
Those representations led to the committee making the following recommendation:
"We strongly urge that the provisions allowing deputies to consent to treatment be restricted to exclude the withdrawal or refusal of life-sustaining treatment. Unless there is a valid LPA or advance decision expressing the individual's wishes in relation to the subject, decisions relating to the carrying out or continuation of life-sustaining treatment should be referred to the Court of Protection for determination".
In the first part of the Government's response, we were quite hopeful:
"While the Bill already states that deputies would be given powers that are as limited in scope and duration as possible, we understand the reasoning behind this recommendation. Giving a deputy the authority to refuse consent to the provision or continuance of life-sustaining treatment on behalf of a person who lacks capacity is very significant, and we understand the concerns that people have".
Then I am afraid we have the Welsh for "but"
"However, the Government is not persuaded that a blanket exclusion of the power to refuse treatment is necessary".
They go on to set out the reasons, which were referred to by the noble Earl, Lord Howe. But it was not made clear in the example they gave whether there might be a series of decisions about a course of treatment. If there is a course of treatment, I imagine that none the less a single decision must be made at the beginning of that course to allow it to be carried out. If a different treatment has to be considered, then I am sure that you would have to go back to the court.
This is an area of real concern. Members of the Joint Committee thought about it very seriously, which is why we made our recommendation. The Government should think again on this because there is real general concern that deputies will be taking decisions for which they are not qualified. It would be better to leave them to the court.

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Lastly, I mention another example the Government cited as an argument against the provision. They said that there could be,
"distressing and lengthy disputes between doctor and family".
That is exactly what the court is for. The parties can go to the court and have the dispute resolved. It is an argument in favour of reference to the court, not against.
I was pleased to add my name to Amendment No. 74 and I look forward to learning why the Government, in their response to the recommendation of the Joint Committee, gave an extremely fair wind in the first part of their response and then changed their mind.
Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Amendment No. 80, dealing with the issue of second opinions, is grouped with these amendments. Before speaking to it, however, I should like to add my voice to that of the noble Lord, Lord Carter, in support of the arguments that have been so persuasively and eloquently put by the noble Earl. It will be dangerous for the person with incapacity unless we do something along the lines suggested in these amendments.
I also think that it is invidious to the deputy, for the reasons adumbrated today. I am concerned that we will be trumping the medics with people who, as the noble Earl, pointed out, are not medically qualified. It would put social workers in an invidious position. We need to tread very carefully in this area and I hope that Amendments Nos. 56, 74 and 75 will commend themselves to the Government.
I am grateful to my noble friends Lady Finlay of Llandaff and Lady Masham of Ilton for their support of my Amendment No. 80. The amendment is divided into five subsections which I shall detail after a brief general introduction to this proposed new clause.
The amendment seeks to introduce additional safeguards around proxy decision making, whether the decision is being made by an attorney appointed in a lasting power of attorney or by a deputy appointed by the Court of Protection. The most important feature of this amendment is that it requires the medical practitioner to obtain a second opinion in the event of a dispute between himself and the attorney or deputy.
I have good grounds for arguing in favour of this proposition because of the experience that we have already had in Scotland. That is another jurisdiction, but nevertheless it is one that is familiar to us all. Clause 50 of the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Act 2000 provides that where there is a dispute between the doctor and the attorney or deputy, an application can be made to the court by the doctor for a second medical opinion to be provided. I should like to ask the Government why the Scottish position has not been adopted in the Mental Capacity Bill. I raised this question with the Minister when we met recently to discuss the provisions of the Bill. The good practice that has been experienced in Scotland is something that we should consider as we come to assess how to proceed with our own legislation.
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Requiring a second opinion in the event of disputes would provide an important safeguard against inappropriate decisions being taken by either doctors or attorneys and deputies.
Subsection (2) of Amendment No. 80 would allow any person interested in the personal welfare of a person to appeal a decision about his medical treatment to the court. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Carter, about being able to continue to do that in all individual circumstances where disputes arise. Subsection (2) would apply even where there is no dispute between the medical practitioner and the attorney or deputy.
Subsection (3) would apply in the event of a dispute between the medical practitioner and the attorney or deputy. It requires the medical practitioner to ask the Secretary of State to nominate another medical practitioner to provide a second opinion.
Subsection (4) would apply in the event of the nominated medical practitioner certifying that the treatment can go ahead. In those circumstances, the medical practitioner primarily responsible for the medical treatment of the person may provide that treatment, notwithstanding any disagreement with the attorney or deputy.
Finally, subsection (5) would apply where, having sought and obtained a second medical opinion, the medical practitioner primarily responsible for the medical treatment of the person disagrees with that opinion. In those circumstances, he or indeed any person having an interest in the personal welfare of the person may apply to the court for a determination whether the proposed treatment should be given.
The amendment would provide an important mechanism for resolving disputes between medical professionals and proxy decision makers. It would, it is hoped, obviate the need for expensive and time-consuming litigation. I hope that the Government will reflect carefully on the principles that underline the amendment so that, even if the technical details need to be altered, they will consider incorporating something along these lines—dealing with the practice as we have seen it working in Scotland.
3.30 p.m.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: I do not wish to repeat the detailed points that have been made so eloquently by those noble Lords who have already spoken, but I think that this is a very important principle in terms of the way decisions are taken. These complex decisions are being taken every day up and down the UK. This is not a rare event. The way these amendments are set out would provide a pathway to deal with taking decisions when disagreement or complexity surround them.
The second opinion referred to in Amendment No. 80 is not "a" second opinion. By having a list of nominated persons, one envisages that these will be people who have had specific additional training in the complexities of medical ethics and end-of-life decision-making. They will be people whose decision-making processes are, first, informed by higher specialist training; and, secondly, the decision-making process

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can be audited so that the way in which they function as nominated second opinions can be monitored over time. The courts would then become a default position as a last resort.
However, it is to be hoped that the second opinion coming in would be able to untangle the medically inappropriate or negligent decisions and help both parties—the person advocating the treatment and the person saying that it should not be occurring—to see the situation from both sides. Often one of the important roles of a second opinion is to bring about a reconciliation of conflicting views.
In working through the amendments, I notice that one phrase is not used—that is, "care plans". I wonder whether there is a need for a mechanism—probably in the code of practice rather than on the face of the Bill—whereby in the dispute process there is an obligation to revisit the care plan frequently. As the noble Lord, Lord Carter, said, while a decision is being made as to whether or not to instigate something, the clinical situation can change and new decisions arise as to what else you do as part of the treatment, or what you do not do, depending on how the course of treatment and the monitoring processes are going.
So what may at first sight appear to be a single decision could turn into a cascade of decisions—and it is with a cascade of decisions in particular that the second opinion could be useful. Such decisions could be brought back and kept within the frame, and could push the revisiting of care plans. As I said previously, I am a little concerned that we have been looking at these decisions as though they are single, isolated decisions, which I honestly believe they are not.
However imperfectly these amendments are currently worded, and whatever difficulties the suggestions we are putting forward now may pose, I hope the Minister will consider the importance of formulating a pathway for resolution before having to go to the courts. I hope she will establish a default mechanism—which perhaps mirrors the one proposed in Amendment No. 11, which was tabled previously by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and I—that, when in doubt, a default position towards life is safer than a default position towards death.
Baroness Masham of Ilton: Many disabled people have come to the House of Lords and said that there need to be more safeguards in the Bill. These amendments highlight that. I have attached my name to Amendment No. 80.
One shudders when one thinks of Shipman. He has gone now, but only yesterday another person—this time a completely bogus doctor—appeared. He was a taxi driver who ran a clinic. He conned his so-called colleague doctors and he conned his patients. That shows how these things can happen—and they can happen when working with professional people. The man is now in prison for 10 years, I think, but it shows how important it is to have a second opinion.
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The Minister will need to look at the matter very seriously if we are going to help the many disabled people who are now very fearful. I support the amendments.
Baroness Warnock: I am attracted to the notion introduced by my noble friend Lady Finlay of the care plan that can be revisited from time to time. This is essential and defines the function of the second opinion. But would the care plan have been drawn up first, not only by the doctors but in the light of an advance directive if there were one?
Lord Carter: I wish to make one further point. I am sure that when the Minister replies she will draw our attention to Clause 20(6), which states:
"The court may exercise its power under subsection (5) only if it is satisfied that the circumstances are exceptional".
It would be extremely helpful if she could give examples of what are exceptional circumstances and perhaps an idea of their frequency.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken for setting out the complex and extremely important issues that underlie the amendments. I shall not enter into an argument about whether the amendments are technically correct or incorrect because I know that their purpose at this stage is to tease out discussion about the issues.
Let me start with Amendments Nos. 74 and 75, which concern the question of the court-appointed deputy. As my noble friend Lord Carter said, the Government were very keen and welcomed the vast majority of the committee's recommendations, but they concluded at that stage that there may be a handful of circumstances where the court might decide that it would be in the person's best interests to give a deputy the power to give or refuse consent to life-sustaining treatment.
However, to save the time of the Committee, I have reviewed that decision and I can give an assurance that I intend to bring forward an amendment at Report stage to remove the ability of the court to give a deputy that power. For all the reasons stated, I believe that that is the right thing to do. I pay tribute to the Committee. In other words, I am stopping before the "but" in terms of what my noble friend said. I will discuss with the noble Lords who brought forward the amendments the exact wording. I see the sense of it being for the court to decide for all the reasons that have been given.
As to Amendment No. 56, I start—not surprisingly from all that I have said during the passage of the Bill—in a different place. Although at first sight this might appear to be a similar issue, there is a crucial difference—that is, that the attorney is acting because the donor wishes him to do so. In other words—if we personalise these matters and deal with real people—I might decide that I want to give my husband or my child the power to act on my behalf in accordance with Clause ll(7)(a) and make an express provision. In those circumstances, we believe that that is right and

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proper. In this context, it is very important that we make a distinction between that situation and a deputy who is an unknown individual.
We know that attorneys will generally be, for all the best possible reasons, family members or friends. We know, too, that when people know that they have a particular condition or, as we all are, they are getting older, they will take comfort in the fact that a loved one will take the decision rather than a complete stranger, however wonderful the doctor may be. In a sense, the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, made my case in her description of what can happen when professional doctors perhaps do not always act in the best interests. I am not for one minute suggesting that as a negative reason but because I believe it is right for individuals to have the right to say "When I am not capable of taking a decision I wish to give it to you".
It also concerns giving consent to treatment as well as refusal. As the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, has rightly reminded us on many occasions, we are not dealing with a single moment or a single treatment but with a set of treatments depending on what is happening to the individual. It could be a course of antibiotics or many other treatments. We are saying that it is right that the attorney appointed by the individual makes those decisions in the right way.
The theme of the Bill is that attorneys have to act in the best interests of the person.
I am sorry, I am being corrected. I should have said that I am going to stop deputies refusing treatment; we do not mind if people give consent to treatment. I am sorry if I did not make that clear, but that is what the noble Lord wanted.
We want to make sure that that is the case. We have made it very clear that if a doctor has any doubt about the attorney's attitude towards making decisions, he can continue to treat while seeking clarification from the court. In other words, even if I give my husband, through an express provision, the right to make a decision to consent to or to refuse treatment that, in the context of my situation, would be considered life-sustaining, if a medical professional felt that he was not acting in my best interests, a doctor could treat and go to the court for clarification. In many senses, that is where Amendment No. 80 comes in. The noble Lord, Lord Alton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, have plotted the journey. Members of the Committee will not be surprised to hear that I will resist putting that in the Bill, not least because I do not want to undermine what I have said about attorneys, because they are very important, and about that specific provision.
It is important that the voice of the stakeholders is heard. The Alzheimer's Disease Society supports very strongly the provision to allow attorneys to make treatment decisions. It sees that as a safeguard that an attorney can ensure that life-sustaining treatment continues to be given where a doctor may suggest that it is withdrawn. It is a two-way street.
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I hope that what I have said about deputies and the amendment I will bring forward has given some comfort to noble Lords. But I hope that the distinction I have drawn between deputies and attorneys is understood and that we are very clear it is the individual who gives that power to somebody. If members of the medical professional feel that that power is being used wrongly and the person is being abused, they can treat and go to the court. That is very important.
Lord Alton of Liverpool: Before the Minister leaves that point, I specifically asked her about the experience in Scotland. Amendment No. 80 is based on the Scottish legislation. Why did the Government reach different conclusions from those of their Scottish counterparts? Have we weighed the evidence and experience in Scotland in proceeding in the direction that the Minister has outlined?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: Indeed, I was going to come on to that point. I thought that I was becoming more eloquent rather than winding down. That is a fallacy on my part.
There is no reason to suggest that what the noble Lord says about Scotland would not work in practice. However, we do not agree with the principle behind the amendment because we think it is important to respect the power that an individual gives to an attorney. We want to ensure that that is how the Bill works.
More generally, we are looking very carefully at the experience in Scotland; some of our proposals are born of its experiences, both good and bad. Elements of how the system works in Scotland are different. One of the principal reasons why we have not simply followed the Scottish example is the difference in common law. The noble Lord knows that some issues addressed in the Bill were not necessary to address in Scotland because they did not have that legal basis. In part, we are moving from the common law to statute in areas of law that are already well founded.
I think the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, would agree from her own experience that this is a team effort. The relative or friend who has power of attorney will be working with a team of professionals because a series of decisions needs to be taken and because these issues need very careful thought.
We are very clear that second opinions are available. We have talked about these issues to the medical bodies, including the BMA and the GMC. There are well recognised ways in which second opinions are sought. We have not sought to second-guess medical opinion or, indeed, clinical practice. I have no doubt that second opinions would be sought by those who had power of attorney and were concerned about the medical practitioner or by the medical practitioner concerned about the way in which the attorney was operating. That is not on the face of the Bill, because it is good medical practice. However, we are very clear that the court overrides the chosen attorney.
We expect there to be a dialogue; we expect people to work through this; and we expect them to understand that life-sustaining treatment is not an

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event but a series of potential different events. The attorney, as a loved one—a person given that power by the individual—has to act in his best interests. But if there is a dispute, everybody's role is clear. One can seek second opinions, the doctor can continue to treat and only the court can override the attorney, not somebody with a slightly different opinion. I think that that is the best protection we can give. In Scotland, the end result is the court, so in a sense this is not about practice but principles.
On Amendment No. 80, the noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay and Lady Warnock, were absolutely right about care plans. In most situations, one would expect that people have a care plan, and good clinical practice suggests it. I suggest that it should be worked out now with relatives and friends—those involved in the care of the individual. That gives greater certainty about who is acting on whose behalf and that decisions are taken as a team. I do not want to move away from that position, and although I understand what lies behind the issues raised in this group of amendments, I want an attorney to be given the power by the individual—by me to my husband, by any noble Lord to his child or best friend—and play his proper and appropriate part. I want to be clear that members of the medical profession have a duty of care and the right to override a particular decision without fear of litigation if they are concerned about why the attorney has taken that decision and that the court will do its job in determining the truth and making the final decision. That is where we are.
I think that there is nothing between us on this; we are merely negotiating about what needs to be in the Bill and how we set it out. Given what I have said about taking away the right of deputies to refuse treatment, for all the good reasons that have been put forward, I hope that noble Lords will support the Government in this process and the noble Earl will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
3.45 p.m.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: I appreciate greatly the Minister's reply. We are all travelling in the same direction and want the same outcomes. Could we take this opportunity to revisit the draft code of practice and make sure that the guidance is strong enough? Second opinions should be given by not just anyone but by someone who has specific training at a higher level and can demonstrate it. Such people should keep a log of the number of times they are asked to provide a second opinion, and care plans should be formally audited over time so that a degree of experience builds up within the profession that drives up the standard. One of the great opportunities of this Bill is that we can encapsulate good practice and, in time, drive up the standard right across the board.
Baroness Masham of Ilton: I should like to add something to my noble friend's comments about care plans. They should be kept up to date. I have just been doing my husband's care plan, and it gets out of date very quickly.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I have no difficulty with revisiting the code of practice. I simply fear that we might
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be straying into what the BMA and GMC do. I agree completely about the need to keep care plans updated, to make sure that one has the right professional knowledge and that a body of knowledge is built up, and that we have the highest possible standards. Those factors do not all fall within what I am able to achieve in the code of practice, but they fall within what the Government are able to do in their discussions with the BMA and GMC. On that basis, I am more than happy to look at the code of practice again.
Lord Carter: This is the second time the Government have accepted a recommendation of the Joint Committee, which they did not do at the time. I am extremely grateful and will now see how many more agreements I can get.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: That is always a danger when I do anything.
Earl Howe: This has been a very gratifying debate, with some notable contributions from all quarters of the Committee. I am particularly grateful to the Minister for having taken the initiative to look at the power of court deputies. I am immensely appreciative of the obvious thought that she has devoted to this issue and believe that the Bill will be better for that decision.
It remains for us to consider whether we should go a little further and bring back on Report the ability of an attorney to take life-and-death decisions. I understand all that the Minister has said in this context. As a generality, we want the Bill to empower individuals. I recognise that anything which dilutes that sense of empowerment is, a priori, something that we should hesitate to adopt. But I ask myself whether it is right for Parliament to bestow a power of such gravity on anyone. It is an awesome responsibility to have to take a decision on behalf of someone in a life or death situation. The circumstances in which the power may be used cannot usually be foreseen by the donor. In most cases, one could imagine that there would be little problem where a doctor recommends withholding or withdrawal of treatment, but are we really saying that where a doctor recommends continuing treatment, an attorney would have the power to veto that?
The Minister indicated that there were contingency provisions that would enable the court to look at the whole situation, but I will need to reflect on this issue. I am not detracting in any way from the force of the arguments that the Minister presented, which I recognise is considerable, but the matter is not as clear-cut as she made out. There is considerable disquiet among a number of people that the Bill contains these provisions. It is useful to have had these exchanges and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 57 not moved.]
Clause 11 agreed to.
Clause 12 agreed to.
Clause 13 [Revocation of lasting powers of attorney etc.]:
[Amendments Nos. 58 to 60 not moved.]
Clause 13 agreed to.
Clauses 14 and 15 agreed to.
Clause 16 [Powers to make decisions and appoint deputies: general]:
Earl Howe Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 61:
Page 9, line 24, at end insert—
"(c) P's claims for and payments of state benefits administered by the relevant authorities"
The noble Earl said: In moving this amendment, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 68 and 69. With these amendments we move to a completely different subject. The aim of these amendments is to ensure that individuals who rely solely on state benefits for their income are included within the provisions of the Bill. There are approximately 300,000 people who lack capacity and have appointees appointed by the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions.
It is difficult to argue that all the safeguards that apply in this Bill should not apply equally to those who receive only benefit income. It makes no sense to have a separate system of appointeeship for the Department for Work and Pensions. Current appointees are the equivalent of deputies and so by rights should be covered by the equivalent safeguards. In many cases, the Court of Protection would merely need to make a single order rather than appoint the person as a deputy, but that approach would bring that person within the ambit of the Bill and would resolve the current confusion about when an appointee and a deputy are needed. The single order could stipulate who should be responsible for the claims to benefits and clarify that the person is responsible for all aspects of the claim and if there are overpayments. Safeguards could be incorporated into the single order in the same way as they are currently for those given responsibility under short orders.
The amendments would provide greater protection to the person lacking capacity who is not able to choose their appointee—he or she is chosen for them. Furthermore, there are no rights of appeal against that decision. The appointee is not monitored by the Department for Work and Pensions and there are frequent examples of the appointee not using the benefits in the best interests of the mentally incapacitated person and it being difficult to get the appointeeship revoked. If there were concerns about the actions of a person in relation to state benefits, the court could take the steps necessary to revoke the order.
If the Minister has the word "resist" in her brief, I hope that she will take a step backwards from that exhortation and take stock of what I have said because there are all sorts of practical benefits that could ensue from making the changes that I have suggested. I beg to move.
Baroness Barker: I strongly support the statements made by the noble Earl, Lord Howe. It is wholly wrong that appointeeship should not fall within the ambit of this Bill.
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I want to ask the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, why the DWP has not included appointeeships in the Bill and why it is content to see a completely separate system running in parallel. There are several concerns that I have become aware of from colleagues who work in the information, advice and advocacy services, not least of which is that appointeeship is not routinely monitored. It is only revoked when concerns have been raised by people, which can take quite a long time. For many of the people about whom we are talking, whose only source of income is benefits, there is a distinction. Whereas an attorney is chosen—we have heard much today about the importance of the fact that an attorney is chosen by an individual—appointees are not. Appointees, as their name implies, are appointed, so a significant safeguard is missing.
The other concern for some of us is that, although we have spoken at length today about concerns such as the POVA list—I know that we cannot use it under this Bill, but we did mention it—to the best of my knowledge there are no such restrictions on people appointed by the DWP. In fact there are few restrictions in social security legislation. When she comes to "resist" the amendment with the force of the DWP, I hope that the Minister will address those points.
Baroness Andrews: I am always open to temptation but this is one instance where I will have to resist. I hope that I can do so with some understanding of the problem and give noble Lords who have spoken some comfort about aspects of the existing situation.
The group of amendments taken together would allow a deputy to be appointed to administer any state benefits paid to someone lacking capacity and those benefits might include a state pension, income support or disability living allowance. We must consider—and I say this in particular to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, who spoke most eloquently about the need to solve problems in the system—what is the most appropriate system in the circumstances. We must have adequate but not disproportionately excessive safeguards.
A financial deputy who is appointed as a deputy for property and affairs could, if appropriate, administer benefits, so it is not that benefits are excluded. Certainly, someone who has that responsibility can deal with benefits as well. Currently receivers appointed by the Court of Protection can do so, and deputies will have the same powers. So there would be no difference between private income and state benefits. I hope that that will be of some help and comfort. It is quite possible, for example, that the court might appoint a deputy for someone suffering from a temporary period of incapacity—a road accident, for example—who had a significant sum of money at their disposal and also received a disability living allowance for a teenage child. It would then make perfect sense for the same person to look after all that income and property.
4 p.m.
Both noble Lords addressed the issue of people whose primary income is in benefits. For them we have a system of appointeeships, 500,000 of which are in

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place, which is a huge number. As the noble Earl said, some 300,000 people might be eligible under the terms of the amendment. But that 500,000 must compare with 17,500 state receivers, so we have already reached very disproportionate numbers.
The appointeeship system is used when people lack capacity and receive state benefits. It is a long-standing, integral part of the system for payment of state benefits and, clearly, it must remain with the Department for Work and Pensions, as that is the department that administers the benefit, after all. We need that coherence and accountability, which could be lost if the responsibility were to move to another department.
The other thing about proportionality is that a court should not need to be involved every time a friend or neighbour offers to take responsibility for the benefits of someone who needs their help. The whole purpose of the appointeeship system is that it is an informal arrangement, often between families, friends and neighbours. Someone will go and collect the pension or disability pension, and it is done out of kindness, neighbourliness and generosity. It would be a disproportionate burden to expect people to get a court order first, and then to submit accounts to the Public Guardian on a regular basis. Frankly, many people would simply not do it. We know that the impact on those who were dependent on those acts of kindness would be very grave indeed. So it is important to balance the potential benefit with the potential difficulties, to which the noble Earl referred. We need to ensure that people continue to do those things.
The other thing that I would say is that, as the benefit system has evolved—and again this is a contextual point—we have become much better at ensuring that people on benefits have access to proper information. For example, I know from my other noble friend who made a lightning appearance, Lady Hollis of Heigham, about the provisions that we are making within the Disability Discrimination Bill for pensioners with physical immobility to receive benefits by a post office card, or to entrust their card to relatives. So we are looking at different ways in which we can help people through the system. But it is quite a different matter when someone is administering a sizeable and complex amount of money, with grave implications. In those cases, it is appropriate that a deputy should be appointed and monitored by the court and that he or she should meet formal requirements, such as producing accounts.
Therefore, we do not go along with the recommendations made in the amendment, although we completely understand what noble Lords are concerned about. It would be disproportionate to appoint a deputy when someone's finances are relatively straightforward and could be managed. But for those instances when they are not, a court can make a single order when a single decision is needed. For example, the major decision for many people who become incapacitated is to decide whether to move into a care home. In those situations, it would be possible to make a single order to deal with that. But
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it would not be appropriate to make a single order if the implication was that the applicant had a continuing role in relation to the person lacking capacity, as they always would if they were looking after their state pension.
We must think of the Court of Protection—and we shall come to that matter later in the Committee—as very much the place of last resort, when affairs cannot be settled in other ways. That is another reason why we do not want the court to be involved, when other solutions such as the appointeeship system are in place. Instead, the court will be able to provide other support through the Office of the Public Guardian, which will act as a signpost in many ways to suitable help and advice for a range of issues. Of course, as the noble Lord said, information is extremely important; people need to know where to go to get the most appropriate information and help to resolve problems concerning someone who lacks capacity. They will be able to advise, given the financial status of the person lacking capacity, the nature of the incapacity, the nature of the help that is needed, and other relevant circumstances, what is the best solution. But it will not always be the case that a court solution will be best; some other agency might be much better.
I turn to the point raised by the noble Baroness about monitoring. This is where the Committee might feel warmer to what I am saying. We know that there have been concerns about the appointeeship system, which has been in place for a long time, and, in particular, the monitoring of appointees. The Bill has enabled us to take stock of the arrangements for appointees and to improve them in the light of the Bill's principles. Officials and Ministers from DCA and DWP have been discussing how they can use the Bill to improve the appointeeship system. DWP Ministers have readily agreed that they will review the appointment process in light of the Bill.
During the process a DWP official—a benefits official—will visit the person lacking capacity and the prospective appointee. The official needs to be sure that the person does in fact lack the capacity to look after their own benefits, and that the appointee will act in their best interests. That process will be enhanced by the Bill and the code of practice. For example, it will be useful for the officials carrying out those visits to have the benefit of the extra advice on assessing capacity. DWP and DCA officials will work together to ensure that DWP guidance reflects the principles of the Bill and places best interests at its heart.
In addition, DWP acknowledges that the question of monitoring needs to be addressed, and it will look at the options for introducing a monitoring system. With half a million appointees, that is not going to be easy; but it is clearly important, and there will be visits, paper reviews, targeted monitoring—all those sorts of things can be looked at in the light of the Bill. DWP will act quickly to revoke appointments where allegations of mismanagement are made.
I should say to the noble Earl, who made the point about revocation, that the claimant can challenge an appointee. It is not always easy, but as things come to

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light within families, neighbourhoods and care homes about the conduct of appointees, DWP will certainly always investigate under those circumstances. I also reassure him about the idea that there might be confusion because there are two systems running. I have explained why we want to keep the appointeeship system, but the Court of Protection and the Office of the Public Guardian, in their efforts to make sure that we have as much information and appropriate placement as possible, will produce a wide range of information leaflets, including advice on applying to be a deputy. That will make it clear that it will not be necessary to apply to be a deputy unless the finances of the person lacking capacity are sufficiently complex to warrant it. That is part of our implementation strategy—to make information available as widely as possible. We will look for that information to go into as many places, such as doctors' surgeries, as possible.
When someone is receiving benefits and has a deputy or attorney, the DWP is committed to working with that person and enabling them to administer the benefits as well. We are looking at genuinely joined-up thinking and practice here. If there is no deputy or attorney, the DWP itself will make an appointment. DCA and DWP officials are committed to working together to ensure there is no confusion. It is a credit to the Bill that it has prompted that sort of movement in a system that has worked well but could probably work better.
With that explanation, I hope that noble Lords will not press their amendments.
Baroness Barker: I hope that the noble Earl, Lord Howe, will not mind if I speak first.
I thank the Minister for her comments. She made some very important statements, particularly about the extent to which DWP has been pushed towards reviewing appointeeship, which is a particular concern. However, I have a couple of points.
Perhaps the Minister can tell me at some stage how many of the half million appointees are in fact employees of statutory authorities acting on behalf of older people. The noble Baroness talked about contextual information. I think that there are two critical pieces of contextual information. Over the next year—the next year from March, as she will probably know from having sat through the proceedings on other legislation with me—direct payments will rapidly commence. By that I am talking not about direct payment of grant, but payment of benefit directly rather than through order books. There is a lot of concern about those with incapacity who will, over a short time, perhaps for the first time in their lives, have to start to operate a bank account. Over the next year that is going to be an extremely contentious and difficult matter in practice.
My second point concerns the way in which local authorities operate the appointeeship system. The noble Baroness may be able to discover another interesting statistic. How many of those for whom local authorities are appointees are in residential care?
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I suspect she will find that many people in residential care have local authority appointees. Why? Because there is a very close relationship between getting care home fees and so on.
I am also interested to know how many of those not in residential care have been given appointees. I ask that for the following reason. Age Concern is beginning to pick up a situation whereby local authorities approach voluntary organisations to ask them to take on the appointeeship work. Why? Because it is not a chargeable service. I am very concerned about some of the changes that are beginning to occur. I am not sure that they are happening for the best of reasons.
I thank the noble Baroness very warmly for her comments on the proposed monitoring, particularly regarding the DCA and DWP review of the appointment process. I hope that that will include an assessment of the extent to which appointees will follow the principles in the Bill. I ask her to consider two further points on that.
First, appointeeships are by nature informal, usually because the sums involved are not large and would not involve the Court of Protection. Sometimes, however, that sum is all the income that a person has and may mean a lot to him. Will there be any move towards notifying the Office of the Public Guardian about the number of appointeeships so that it can begin to register and monitor them? Secondly, are there any plans to make provisions allowing claimants to appeal decisions on their lack of capacity and their need for appointeeship? I would like to think that some of the Bill's best provisions for the autonomy of those who lack capacity could be reflected in the appointeeship system that is running in parallel.
Baroness Andrews: I am sorry that my noble friend Lady Hollis made such a lightning appearance—I should have detained her, or maybe restrained her. I shall do my best to deal with those points. However, I think it unlikely that we will be able to provide the noble Baroness with the information in the form she requests on the number of appointees and whether they come from statutory authorities. I know that she is right about the close relationship that leads to their becoming appointees for people in residential care. However, we will certainly see what we can find out on that point.
Direct payments are payments from local authorities to enable people to pay for their own care. At the moment it is possible to have direct payments but I understand that consultation is to begin on indirect payments where a person lacks capacity. I shall obtain more information on that and write to the noble Baroness.
I shall also write to the noble Baroness on the issues of notification relating to the Office of the Public Guardian and appointments. The appointments system is fairly fluid and informal. I shall think about those questions and write to the noble Baroness.
4.15 p.m.
Baroness Barker: I beg the indulgence of the Committee to ask that when the noble Baroness writes to me she addresses an issue that has been raised by

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Solicitors for the Elderly. That organisation is very concerned about these issues and has provided extensive briefing on them. I believe it is correct to say that single orders will cover people who have small occupational pensions. Will the noble Baroness ask colleagues in the DWP why, if single orders will cover those people, they cannot also cover people who receive benefits, as the two groups of people often share similar circumstances?
Baroness Andrews: That matter relates to the answer I gave about the difficulty of involving the courts and the formalities that would be involved. There is also the problem of the typical four-month delay that arises in those circumstances. If a large number of people went through that system, the delays would be longer. Practical issues are involved here but I shall certainly write to the noble Baroness.
Earl Howe: The fact that the noble Baroness wears a velvet glove in presenting her case does not prevent me feeling as though I have been beaten to a pulp on this side of the Chamber. Nevertheless, she has taken great care to meet the spirit of these amendments so far as she possibly can, and for that I am grateful.
The most encouraging message I take from her reply is that there is joined-up thought within government on these matters. There is not just joined-up thought but also the prospect of joined-up practice as between the Department for Constitutional Affairs and the DWP. That is immensely encouraging. I am sure we all want to see—this was the theme of my earlier remarks—the spirit of this Bill and of the codes of practice apply across the piece. I was extremely glad to hear what the noble Baroness said about the principle of best interests and about monitoring.
The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, made some very pertinent points. I hope that when a letter is sent to her in answer to those points I shall receive a copy as the questions were very well made. I was particularly taken with her question that, if the system remained as it is—I understand what the noble Baroness said about retaining accountability with the Department for Work and Pensions—and appointeeship remained with the DWP, whether there would be a system of automatically informing the Public Guardian of appointments made. That question implies that there should be some sort of a register kept by the Public Guardian of all the third parties who are dealing with a person's affairs, whether it be an appointee, a deputy or an attorney. If a register existed, an appointeeship that had been revoked because the appointee was not fulfilling the conditions of the appointment could be taken off the register. One could envisage that system working without too much bureaucracy or difficulty.
In the light of what the noble Baroness said about joined-up practice it would be interesting to hear whether there are discussions with the banks to enable claimants with appointees to manage as much of their affairs as they can themselves. That is a principle that we have debated since the beginning of this Bill. It is not immediately easy to see how that principle could be dovetailed into the current system but I hope that it could be.
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The suitability of the appointee is, of course, another very important aspect of this. As the noble Baroness rightly said, you do not have a choice when the appointee is chosen—that is someone who is just thrust upon you. If we are to pursue the spirit of this Bill, we ought to look at ways of having some sort of check and some sort of voice for the individual.
It is only right for me to thank the noble Baroness for having enlightened us on the Government's current thinking. Much of what she said was encouraging, and I do not feel too pummelled. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Earl Howe Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 62:
Page 9, line 31, leave out "section 4 (" and insert "sections 1 to 4 (the principles and"
The noble Earl said: In moving Amendment No. 62, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 66, 67, 71, 72 and 76. These amendments mirror the similar ones that we debated earlier for lasting power of attorney. It should be clear in the Bill that deputies should act in accordance with the principles of the Bill as outlined in Clause 1. The noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, was kind enough to say that she would take away that suggestion and consider it further. Like attorneys, deputies must be aware of the need to consider each of the principles before taking any action. Once again, although the Bill implies that they should do so, there is nothing apart from Clause 1 that explicitly makes that an obligation. Deputies and those appointed under a single order should have the same responsibilities as donees under an LPA to update the Office of the Public Guardian with any relevant change in circumstances.
Self-evidently, deputies can make vital decisions in relation to the finances and welfare of some of the most vulnerable people. For that reason, there should be checks that the deputy is a suitable person. Although the Bill provides that those who are bankrupt cannot be financial deputies, further checks should be made by the Office of the Public Guardian to make sure that the person who has applied to be a deputy is suitable for that role. I beg to move.
Baroness Andrews: As the noble Earl said, some of the amendments have been anticipated by the welcome statement made by my noble friend about the emphasis on principles. I shall take Amendments Nos. 62 and 76 first, which propose that Clauses 16 and 20 be amended to the effect that the powers of the Court of Protection and court-appointed deputies are subject to the provisions of the Act and to Sections 1 to 4, on the principles of best interests.
We discussed similar amendments in reference to attorneys, and this is in line with the spirit of the Bill. My noble friend said that she would take this away and consider an additional reference to the principles clause, which will emphasise that deputies are subject to the provisions of the Act and to Section 1 on the principles and best interests. On that basis, we look forward to yet another round of applause from noble Lords opposite for fitting in with the spirit of the Bill.

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Amendments Nos. 66, 71 and 72 talk about safeguards. These amendments seek to reduce the possibility that unsuitable people are appointed as deputies. We have talked about the two ways in which we are going to secure that, first by excluding the appointment of those on the Protection of Vulnerable Adults List. We have talked about why it is not possible to check that list, although we understand the principle behind the amendments.
There have been discussions on bankruptcy not only in this House but in the other place as well. This afternoon, my noble friend confirmed that the Office of the Public Guardian will check to see whether prospective deputies are bankrupt. It is highly unlikely that the court would appoint an individual who is bankrupt as a deputy in relation to property and affairs, but as we said in debating another amendment a moment ago, it is possible that the court might wish to appoint such a person in relation to other decisions. Although they are bankrupt, they might still be the appropriate person for taking decisions on welfare and health. It does not preclude people being the best people in that sense. The court will obviously look carefully at whether such an appointment is possible.
On the POVA list, I reiterate—it was part of our response to the Bichard inquiry—that we are exploring the possibility of setting up new arrangements for registering those who care for vulnerable people. In addition on safeguards, given the principle that the powers conferred on a deputy should be limited in scope, a requirement to check the list would not be necessary in every case. A court might want to appoint a person to deal with a very specific and limited matter to do with a person's property and affairs. It might not be appropriate to consult the list in those circumstances.
Clause 16(4) makes it absolutely clear that a decision by the court—a single order—is to be preferred to the appointment of a deputy. That is something that we will explore on the next group of amendments, in relation to the principle of minimum intervention. The powers conferred on a deputy should be as limited in scope and duration as is practicable in the circumstances. We should also not lose sight of the fact that, under Clause 56, the Public Guardian is required to maintain a register of orders appointing deputies and to supervise them. The nature of that supervision is something that we will again discuss on the next amendment. We have good safeguards in the Bill.
I come to the change of circumstances, which was raised by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, on a previous amendment, when my noble friend gave it a warm welcome. It is more difficult to translate the issue into the position of deputies, and I shall explain why. My noble friend explained that the code of practice would advise deputies that they should inform the Office of the Public Guardian of any change in their circumstances. The code will point out the importance of keeping the register of deputies up to date. We listened hard to what the noble Earl said on that.
However, I am not sure how helpful it would be to include that information in every court order. It would raise questions on how we would enforce the matter,
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and about what sanctions would apply if someone did not immediately let the OPG know about a change of address. Those are very practical issues. It would be wrong and misleading to put something in a court order that had no legal force. The notion of such information being in it is a problem for us.
For those reasons, it would be better to include the advice in the code than in a court order, bearing in mind what my noble friend said about the legal force of the code. Deputies will have a duty to have regard to the code; it is not simply a menu of suggestions. Those safeguards should commend themselves to the Committee, not least because a deputy, unlike an attorney, will have to make regular reports to the Public Guardian to ensure that he maintains the duty that he has undertaken. I hope that the noble Earl will be able to withdraw his amendment on that basis.
Earl Howe: I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for that full reply. I do not wish to add anything to my earlier comments, except to say that I shall reflect carefully on what she said before Report. I think that she allayed most of my concerns, and I totally understand her points about the POVA list, which we debated earlier. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
4.30 p.m.
Baroness Barker Baroness Barker moved Amendment No. 63:
Page 9, line 35, leave out paragraph (a).
The noble Baroness said: This is a probing amendment. Paragraph (a) states that a decision of the court is always to be preferred to that of a deputy. Why should that be the case? Does the noble Baroness think that having such a statement in the Bill would make it more likely that more decisions would be put before the court than might otherwise be the case and that, in a sense, there would be a ratcheting up of the kind of decisions upon which one would seek a court decision?
Amendment No. 65, which is also in this group, has been tabled for two main reasons. First, when looking through the Bill, I could not see—I am willing to be proven wrong—that the court had a power to review the appointment of deputies. Circumstances may change and a power to review an appointment may well be a good thing; for example, if the person who had been appointed was a relative and at some point there had been a divorce, or where there was inconclusive evidence of abuse—not something of such significance or such prima facie standing that the court would go on to exert any of the other powers listed in this part of the Bill.
I think that we shall go on to have a significant debate on the amendment in this group tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, but it may be better if I say this now and then sit down and not take up further time. My second reason for tabling the amendment is that I wonder whether conflicts of interest might arise when, for example, a court-appointed deputy is a member of staff of an authority and that authority is also engaged in charging fees for services. Furthermore, perhaps the noble Baroness will consider another issue on which I

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have some concern—that is, where the appointed deputy is a solicitor, or a member of a solicitors' practice, who also acts on behalf of the authority which may be making the charge. I can see some potential for a conflict of interest there. I consider this to be an important set of amendments. I beg to move.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: I rise to speak to Amendment No. 70A, which is in my name and in this group. It is a probing amendment and its obvious purpose is to require the court to appoint a suitable family member as a deputy in preference to a professional. The concept and the wording are taken from Clause 32(2)(a) of the Bill, which concerns the consultation of carers over research.
The amendment's further purpose is to recall the very important points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, (at col. 69 of the report of our Second Reading debate) when she wisely drew a distinction between family carers and professional carers, who, unfortunately, are often in conflict over what should happen to a person with intellectual impairment. Indeed, in the whole area that we are considering, I agree with the noble Baroness that a clear distinction should be made—and reflected in the Bill and the guidelines—between family carers and professional carers. I suggest to the Minister that perhaps that distinction should be made particularly in the guidelines; I do not know how easy it is to include it in the Bill.
I remind Members of the Committee of what I said at Second Reading. Although it is common ground that we must do our utmost to treat every person as an individual with their own unique qualities and requirements, it is probably true to say that people with more severe impairments are likely to be better known by, and to rely more on, their family members than is the case with those with less severe difficulties, some of whom can be frustrated with what they may regard as an overprotective family and who may therefore look more for professional support.
For those reasons and for the reasons put forward by the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeithley, at Second Reading, I submit that it is important to draw a clear distinction between family carers and professional carers. The word "carer" should not continue to be a blanket description for those very different and often conflicting categories of people.
The amendment gives me the opportunity to put another point to the Minister. At Second Reading, I suggested that the next of kin of an intellectually impaired person, or a person nominated by the next of kin should be granted the same powers of discovery as the Bill proposes for independent consultees. The Minister has been good enough to write to me declining that suggestion, saying that the next of kin may not be particularly close to the person concerned and that the family can use the Data Protection Act to access the health and social care records which may be required to inform a decision. The Minister says in her letter:
"The Bill requires that those engaged in caring for a person who lacks capacity, or who are interested in their welfare, should be consulted when a decision needs to be made. So the person holding
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information, for example, a doctor, may voluntarily disclose relevant information to them so long as he complies with data protection principles".
The Minister will forgive me, but those are not quite the same powers as those proposed for independent consultees. Family carers may, therefore, find themselves at a disadvantage. I shall of course be very interested to hear the Minister's reply to the problem today, but as things stand, I trust that she will accept that the Bill, as drafted, will encourage many, perhaps most, of the family members whom I represent to seek to become deputies. I accept, as I did at Second Reading, that that may not apply to most of the categories of people covered by the Bill, but for the families of people with life-long severe incapacity, it will become the obvious thing to do. There is perhaps nothing wrong with that, but I want to be sure that the Government understand and accept that. I beg to move.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland: I understand that in my absence from the Chamber just before lunch, for which I apologise, the Minister assured the Committee that there were difficulties in residential carers becoming attorneys. I raise the same point in relation to deputies. Those who are professionally employed as registered care home owners or their employees have real conflicts of interest in relation to this part of the Bill.
There are real difficulties in relation to the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, and certainly in relation to the points he raised about what the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, had said. Such people often have others to speak for them. I have a grave concern for large numbers of particularly elderly, frail people and severely disabled people who do not have anyone else but the local authority or their care home to stand up for them. In the world of children, we have ensured that there is always an external person. I had hoped that the inclusion of attorneys and deputies in the Bill would bring that assurance.
Therefore, I am looking to the Government, through this Bill, to take us to the next stage of care and representation for those who otherwise would not have representation because they often do not have family members providing that care. I am particularly concerned about conflicts of interest as regards residential carers and care home owners; domiciliary care comes into that too.
Baroness Knight of Collingtree: Does the noble Baroness agree that she could also put in to the categories that she has mentioned mentally handicapped people? Often, if they were born to elderly parents, they have no one. I support what she has said, that this Committee must not leave these people insufficiently cared for.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland: I absolutely accept that. I was simply adding to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, rather than detracting from them. I thought he made that point extremely eloquently on behalf of that group of people.
Lord Christopher: I see some conflict between this proposal and the one that follows in Amendment

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No. 64. I suggest that we need to have some confidence in the court. I cannot believe that the court would not wish to prefer a family member if that, prima facie, was the best thing to do.
On the other hand, it may well be the case that so far as concerns the family, nobody wants to do it, whatever their feelings for the patient, or that there are some serious conflicts between one family member and another which can only lead to problems if one or other was chosen.
So I suggest that this proposal certainly should not be on the face of the Bill. Whether something is needed in the guidance notes is a matter for thought. But let us have some confidence that the court will use its head.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: Of course I accept that the circumstances the noble Lord puts forward may arise. I think that he will accept that there is less likely to be some form of financial conflict of interest with the category of people I referred to. If they have lifelong impairment from birth, they are most unlikely to have the assets which can cause conflicts of interest, unlike other people who have had assets during their life, for instance, and who are covered by the Bill. With that proviso, I accept what the noble Lord says.
Lord Christopher: I will support that briefly. When we get to Amendment No. 64 I shall try to show the other side of that story.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: I would like briefly to inform the Committee of some correspondence I have received that supports Amendment No. 70A. It is from the Cardiff and the Vale Parents Federation, which has consulted with the All Wales Forum of Parents and Carers. Perhaps I may try to summarise its contents. The federation has consulted widely, including in England, as far as I can ascertain.
The federation feels deeply hurt by some general statements that suggest that in these circumstances family carers are not necessarily the best people. It points out very clearly—and I endorse this from my own experience—that these families are trying very hard to achieve the wishes of people for whom they care and who they feel may be so easily disregarded and that in many cases it is impossible to interpret people's wishes accurately.
The federation points to independent research which has demonstrated that in person-centred decision-making families working with their relatives make the most effective advocates and representatives. We ignore that type of objective research at our peril. This is an important amendment in redressing the balance and ensuring that families feel they are respected when they have spent all their lives fighting for the rights of the person who lacks capacity.
Lord Walton of Detchant: I raise briefly one point relating to the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch. There is a difficulty over the definition of next of kin. It is perfectly straightforward
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when there is a spouse or a son or daughter of the individual in question. However, when we in the Select Committee on Medical Ethics looked at the issue we were advised that there are relationships, such as gay relationships, which have no legal standing. In that situation certain difficulties may arise in talking about what is meant by a family. We came to the conclusion that next of kin should be regarded as the individual closest to that person.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: I should be perfectly happy to substitute the phrase put forward by the noble Lord.
Earl Howe: Perhaps I may speak briefly to Amendments Nos. 64 and 73 in the group, which again bear upon the theme of conflicts of interest. What I think is important in this context is not that conflicts of interest should be absent altogether, because very often that is impossible, but that there should be transparency.
My amendments refer to "material" conflicts of interest. I do not think that it is for the Bill to define what "material" should mean here, the court should take the view on what is or is not material. If a deputy happens to be a close relative, conflicts of one kind or another will be highly likely but, as in business and, indeed, in ordinary life, they will not matter as long as everyone is aware of them and the person concerned is scrupulous about following the best interests obligation.
4.45 p.m.
Where they may matter is where large sums of money or substantial assets are involved and where the deputy stands to inherit large sums from the incapacitated person's will. Earlier, we had the example of where there is a choice between a care home costing, say, £400 a week and one costing £800 a week. Let us imagine that the first care home would be adequate and that the second one would be both affordable and provide much better amenities. That is the kind of major decision where an independent advocate should be on hand to support both the incapacitated person and the deputy to ensure that the outcome reached is right and fair.
It may be that, all things considered, the cheaper care home is the preferable option, but it would not be right for the deputy to take that decision without declaring his personal interest and without the decision being given a stamp of approval either by the court or by an independent third party. We need to bear in mind that deputies may well be appointed where there is family conflict. The obligation to declare material or potentially material interests would protect the deputy himself, as much as the person for whom he was acting.
I hope that we will hear some encouraging mood music from the Minister when she replies.
Lord Christopher: I apologise; I had not realised that Amendment No. 64 was in this group, but I suspect that I would not have spoken until I heard the noble Earl in any case. I cannot think that any Member of the Committee objects to the objective here. It is

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clearly desirable. I return to something that I said a few moments ago: we must have some confidence that the court will know what it is doing or will find out what is the wisest course of action.
I am not quite sure what is the difference between a receiver and a deputy; perhaps it is a distinction without much practical difference. Again, in the case that has been mentioned almost to the point of boredom, the court master said that in his judgment it was a case where he would normally have appointed a solicitor—but they cost money and, prima facie, there was no money to pay one—or a member of his own staff. On his own grounds, I suspect, he decided that I was cheaper. I would assess that, had the court appointed a member of its own staff to do the job, we would have been talking, over a period of three years, of at least a third of a unit. So what is involved is not inconsiderable in some cases.
One advantage of being here is that the concept of declaring an interest is pushed into our minds daily. Sometimes we slip but, mostly, we do it properly. This is an area where the court should decide who it feels can best do the task that has to be done, whatever it may be. It may be simple; it may be complex. There should also be clear guidance if someone is appointed who, prima facie, will have an interest. I certainly had an interest; there is no question about that. It should be clear what are their responsibilities in ensuring that the court knows what those interests are as the case proceeds.
It may be quite simple. This example could have arisen—although it did not. There may be a choice between selling an 18th century clock, which the attorney had hoped to have one day, to pay some bills and selling something else. I took the precaution of ensuring that there was a solicitor at my elbow from time to time and checking with her as issues arose. On an almost weekly or monthly basis, I would tell the court what I proposed to do and ask whether it was okay. I never received the answer that it was not. Unless that is conveyed to people, we will considerably restrict the court in the appointments that it can make.
I do not question what has been said from the Cross Benches: that it is often a member of the family who can best do the job. As I said, I suspect that that was in part why I got the job. But to tie the court's hands in some fashion is a mistake. We should have confidence in the court, but ensure that there is proper guidance for the people given those tasks about their responsibilities.
Lord Alton of Liverpool: Earlier in the proceedings of the Committee, I raised a question about codifying the various forms of conflict of interest that are peppered throughout the Bill. The point just made by the noble Lord, Lord Christopher, illustrates again the need for us to be very clear about that. I support strongly the remarks made by the noble Earl.
I do not intend to reiterate my earlier arguments, but will the Minister say whether consideration is being given not only to showing where different forms of
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conflict arise in the Bill but also to making clear what penalties there would be and what courses of action lay open?
Baroness Andrews: We have had a very wide-ranging debate, not least on the nature of the conflict of interest. There have been many examples of what might constitute a conflict of interest, for which I am very grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken.
Amendment No. 63, in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, and the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, is not necessarily easy to deal with, but there is a more straightforward explanation to the single issue that the noble Baroness addressed. When deciding whether to appoint a deputy, the court must, of course, have regard to the Bill's main and overriding principle of best interests. Clause 16(4) sets out two further principles to which the court must have regard when deciding whether it is in a person's best interests to appoint a deputy.
Those principles are that a court decision will always be preferable to the appointment of a deputy and the powers that deputies are given must be as limited in scope and duration as is reasonably practicable in the circumstances.
The noble Lord and the noble Baroness propose that the first of those principles—Clause 16(4)(a)—be deleted, which would remove that presumption. The noble Baroness gazed at me in wonder and said, "Why, oh why, are you actually doing this?". As I hinted in our previous debate, both principles in this clause set out the Bill's principle of minimum intervention, as set out in Clause 1. It is an extremely important provision because it attempts to achieve that balance between protection and independence; that is, people without capacity are enabled to be as independent as possible, while giving them as much protection as possible. Any decision must be that which is least restrictive of their rights and freedom of action.
Rightly, the Bill does away with the label of "incapable". What matters is whether a person can take a particular decision at a particular time.
A one-off decision by the court is less restrictive of the person's rights and autonomy than the appointment of a deputy. The deputy, unlike an attorney, will not have been chosen by the person concerned, but by the court. The deputy will not be able to make ongoing decisions for the person on the matters specified by the court. For example, where several members of a family are arguing between themselves about whether a person should have serious medical treatment, the doctor may want to come to the court to get a single order for that particular decision.
There may be situations where it is more appropriate to appoint someone to deal with ongoing decisions, rather than obliging people to come back to court. For example, where there is property to be sold and a series of significant financial decisions to be made over weeks or months, it would probably be better to appoint a deputy. In other situations, a single court order might be better. We expect there to be many more deputies for financial affairs than for health and welfare. But, in all

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cases, it is most important for the court to take a decision that is in the best interests of the person concerned. So we cannot be categorical about it.
I hope that it is clear why deleting this part of Clause 16(4) would be contrary to the important principle of minimum intervention and, therefore, at odds with the Bill's ethos. With that explanation, I hope that the noble Lord will be satisfied.
I turn now to conflicts of interest. Amendments Nos. 64 and 73 seek to ensure that the court does not appoint a deputy with any actual or potential conflict of interest in taking decisions for the person who lacks capacity. The noble Earl took some time to explain what he meant by "material conflict of interest", which was both important and helpful. Other noble Lords mentioned further definitions of conflict of interest such as the example of the care home owner, while the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, cited that of the lawyer.
Perhaps I may first address the financial issue. Of course we understand the underlying aim of the amendments. It is important that a person lacking capacity is protected from potential abuse at the hands of a court appointed deputy. However, I suggest that the amendments would not add to the safeguards already in place. A three-layer defence is provided here, which I shall detail for noble Lords.
First, we have the overriding imperative of "best interests". Both the court and the deputy are required to act in the person's best interests. Indeed, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Christopher for reinforcing that central point. It means that the court cannot appoint a deputy if it knows of a conflict of interest that would mean that the prospective deputy would not act in the best interests of the person who lacks capacity.
That brings me to the second line of defence and addresses the concerns raised about the meaning of "material conflict", and what evidence will be available to the court to make a decision. To begin with, the deputy will need to declare whether he has ever been convicted of a criminal offence and whether he has ever been disqualified as a company director. As is the case with receivers, the court will be able to obtain a copy of the will of the person who lacks capacity, so that it will be clear whether the prospective deputy is a beneficiary.
Added to those is a third layer of defence, which has resulted from the experience we have gained from the process of receivership. We have developed ways of judging what are best interests and whether people are capable of acting in the best interests of someone else without encountering any conflict.
We have to acknowledge—indeed, it is a positive thing—that in many cases deputies will be trusted family members such as husbands, wives or children. This may happen, for example, if the person has not made an LPA while they had capacity, and their loved one applies to be appointed as a deputy. It may also arise when someone loses capacity suddenly as a result of severe brain injury. However, as noble Lords have been at pains to point out, being a beneficiary of a will
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does not mean that the person appointed would not act in the family's best interests. Every family is different, and as Tolstoy noted, every family is unhappy in different ways. Families are complicated and occasionally will be in conflict for the greater part of their lives. However, we need to ensure that the system arising from the Bill protects people from the worst of such situations.
Once appointed, the deputy must always act in the best interests of the person concerned. If he acted to further his own interests to the disadvantage of that person, it would be open to the court to revoke or amend the deputy's authority. As my noble friend has already indicated, we propose to consider whether to provide explicitly in the Bill that deputies are subject to the principles set out in Clause 1 and the best interests provisions in Clause 4.
I hope that, with the safeguards I have set out, the Bill will provide for everything it reasonably can. I hope also that the evidence point meets the definition offered by the noble Earl in his amendment as to what is "reasonably ascertainable". However, we have to be realistic about what we can and cannot find out, as well as what may or may not be inferred.
I shall turn briefly to our discussion on care home owners and registered care providers. The noble Baroness has made a powerful case, one that on its face is almost irresistible. But we have to consider carefully the fact that there are instances where the person who is most closely involved in the life of a vulnerable person, and who provides the most affection, is the care home owner. I could cite cases of that myself. If we outlaw the provision to appoint them as deputies, we might take away from vulnerable individuals their sole option. It is difficult to preclude such an appointment on the face of the Bill. The court's decision will have to be respected and will be final.
5 p.m.
The noble Baroness will know better than anyone what we are trying to achieve through the national care standards. They are incredibly challenging standards to meet but she knows that they are making a major difference. All those contextual improvements will make a great difference to relationships.
It might also be helpful if we were to talk through with the noble Baroness—my noble friend has made this offer—some of the implications. We know that CSCI is concerned about this and we would be happy to do that.
Let me deal with the question raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, about the conflict where the solicitor acting as deputy acts for the local authority as well. Professionals such as solicitors often have contradictory obligations—they often act for different people—and it is not unknown for them to be in such a situation. However, the noble Baroness has raised an important point and we shall listen to what she says.
From that range of conflicts, let me pass on to Amendment No. 65. This follows quite logically because it raises the question of how the court will monitor the quality of the responsibilities of deputies

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and whether they are doing their job properly. It follows closely on from the discussion on conflict of interests. We understand that the intention behind the amendment is to protect vulnerable people.
We are quite clear that the right people should be appointed, but we are equally clear that they should have the checks and support necessary to ensure that they do a good job. That responsibility will rest with the Public Guardian. He will be charged with supervising the deputy. He will have a range of powers available to him and he will be alert to any complaints that are made. All court-appointed deputies will be registered with, and supervised by, the Public Guardian.
The supervision arrangements will build on what we have in place already and they will be made up front. When someone applies to become a deputy, checks will be made to ensure that only suitable people are appointed and that subsequent supervision is tailored to the level of risk involved. Evidently an accountant acting as a financial deputy may need less supervision than a lay person, but every deputy will receive an initial visit from a Court of Protection visitor in the early months of appointment. Thereafter, the visitor can visit as his judgment dictates to respond to difficulties and to monitor what is going on.
Specifically for financial deputies, the Public Guardian will require a regular submission of accounts. He will be responsible for co-operating with other agencies, such as the police and social services. New innovations we have made in regard to health and welfare deputies may require them to submit reports saying how often they have exercised their authorities. This is work in progress and we will look very carefully at the issue, not least in the light of the concerns that have been raised in the debate today. This will enable the court to determine whether the deputyship is still necessary and to ensure that the appointment is reviewed regularly. Again we are looking at this in the light of the minimum intervention principle. Deputies will be authorised to deal with specific matters for a specified period of time and will be subject to review.
If there are concerns about a deputy's actions, no matter where they come from—the family, the care staff, neighbours or whatever—the Public Guardian will act as a co-ordinating point to investigate those concerns with relevant agencies. Ultimately the matter could be referred to the court and the court will be able to revoke the powers of people who are acting as deputies or amend their powers. So there is a range of protections around the system. I hope that I have reassured the Committee on that matter.
The final debate we had was on the issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Pearson. Of course we sympathise, without condition, with what he is trying to achieve. Let me make a general point. He referred to the letter that my noble friend wrote to the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: I referred to the letter that the Minister wrote to me.
Baroness Andrews: I beg the noble Lord's pardon. However, my answer still stands, I am afraid. We feel
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it is not appropriate to make distinctions in the Bill between types of carers. I am thinking aloud here: we have such a range of legislation dealing with carers, such as the Care Standards Act 2000, and legislation covering young carers, that defining and treating this notion across legislation might well be difficult. There may be other explanations.
I cannot answer the noble Lord's question about next-of-kin on the Floor of the Chamber this afternoon. I am afraid that he will have to bear with us and receive another letter.
The good news is that this point will certainly be covered in the code, which has statutory force. That will enable us to spend more time explaining why we make the distinctions and judgments we do. I hope that that will help.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: Since making my remarks, I have received a copy of the letter the Minister wrote to the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley. It makes the point that the statutory obligation will be to consult,
"those who know a person best".
We would all agree with that. I mention in passing, and in anticipation of the letter that the noble Baroness will be writing to me, that there is often conflict between professional carers and family carers with regard to who knows the person best. My family has on two occasions been told by no doubt well meaning social workers that they knew my daughter very much better than we did. That is the kind of thing that I am trying to avoid in future, because it is very unhelpful.
Baroness Andrews: That is a helpful point. I do not think that that is an unusual situation. Highly dependent people in residential care homes develop very close relationships with their carers. Sometimes there are issues, such as when families feel excluded or the practice is not good. There is an art to managing these relationships in the interest of the person involved.
The noble Lord's amendment would introduce a new principle to which the court should have regard when appointing deputies. It should,
"prefer appointing as deputy a person who, otherwise than in a professional capacity or for remuneration"
is engaged in caring for the person—that is, a family carer. Noble Lords on both sides of the Chamber have spoken about that, and we understand the intention, for the reason that family members are more likely to have the person's best interests at heart. We would all like to think that our families have our best interests at heart.
The amendment would cause problems because, in all sincerity, we do not believe that it would be practicable. First, Clause 19 refers not just to the appointment of health and welfare deputies but also to financial deputies. In this specific case, the best deputy for financial and property affairs will not be a family member. That is self-evident. It could well be an accountant or someone else in a professional capacity.
My noble friend Lord Christopher spoke on my next point. It is preferable to avoid imposing too many rigid rules on the court. We need to enable the court to act

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with flexibility and proper judgment, to make decisions in the person's best interests. There will be instances where it will be in the person's best interests to have a daughter or husband nominated, but in other cases it will not. We have to retain that flexibility to cover the very wide range of circumstances which will arise. In some very sad cases, the family will not have the best interests of the person at heart. So I ask that we allow the court to have flexibility and discretion on a case-by-case basis.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: I will accept what the Minister said, provided that the Minister accepts that in the case of families of people with lifelong severe learning disabilities, there may be the odd bad apple among the families. But on the whole, the majority know the person best. They have looked after them very often with great effort for a long time. As long as that is on the record, I accept all the other things that she said, because the Bill covers many categories of people.
Baroness Andrews: I would not disagree with what the noble Lord said.
Finally, the noble Lord mentioned that the family carer had fewer rights to information than independent consultees. We are not sure that that is true. It is possible to share information according to best interests. It will normally be in a person's best interests to share information with the independent consultees who have been given particular powers because they have no relationship with the patient. However, it may not be in the patient's best interests to share information with them, so there are some subtleties at work.
I am conscious of the time and that other specific questions were asked in the course of the debate. I hope that I have said enough across the range of the amendments for noble Lords to feel happy about not pressing their amendments. I shall read Hansard very carefully and reply in writing to issues that I have not been able to address.
Baroness Barker: I thank the Minister for her full response and her explanation about our Amendment No. 63. It points up that this is a rather different Bill and that there are different ways of expressing things on these subjects than has previously been the case. The Minister said a considerable amount in response to Amendment No. 65. I will go away and study Hansard, but I was interested in the idea that the Office of the Public Guardian might have to produce reports, especially about how often it has exercised its authority.
I remain concerned that the issue of conflict of interest has not been fully addressed. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, was absolutely right when he said that conflicts of interest do exist. It is a question of how they are dealt with and the transparency that lies behind that. The Minister has gone a considerable way towards explaining how the machinery behind the Bill
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will work. Noble Lords may want to take this matter away and consider coming back at a further stage. Meanwhile, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 64 to 67 not moved.]
Clause 16 agreed to.
Clause 17 agreed to.
Clause 18[Section 16 powers: property and affairs]:
[Amendments Nos. 68 and 69 not moved.]
Clause 18 agreed to.
Schedule 2 [Property and affairs: supplementary provisions]:
Baroness Barker Baroness Barker moved Amendment No. 70:
Page 44, line 27, leave out "Lord Chancellor has" and insert "bishop of the diocese in which the benefice is situated has"
The noble Baroness said: I apologise. The noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, has had to leave and this amendment was penned by his hand. Happily for me, I get the privilege of moving the best amendment in the whole Bill. This is not so much an anorak amendment, but a cassock amendment. I have waited for hours to say that, and I am sorry, but I have now got it out of my system.
Noble Lords will know, and some will appreciate in great depth, that where the patron of a benefice—the individual who has the right to appoint a priest of the Church of England—lacks capacity to make the appointment, the power of the appointment currently resides with or, according to the Bill, should remain with the Lord Chancellor. It is our view that that is wrong and that the involvement of the Lord Chancellor in the appointment of clergy of the Church of England to benefices is an historical anomaly, which should be terminated as soon as possible and should not be extended. Perhaps I am acting as an advocate for the Church of England here but, frankly, we believe that they have had centuries of experience and have the skills and capacity to do this all very well on their own. We should like to empower the Church of England to take over this particular function. I beg to move.
5.15 p.m.
Earl Howe: I am not sure whether I should declare an interest—perhaps I should, as I am a patron of four livings. It was my belief that when a patron was unwilling or unable to make an appointment, the duty fell automatically on the diocesan bishop, failing whom it fell to the Archbishop of Canterbury, failing whom it fell to the Prime Minister. I was unaware that the Lord Chancellor had a role in that process and, regardless of the current legal position, I am entirely in sympathy with the amendment that the noble Baroness proposes. It makes eminent sense.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: Apparently, since the 14th century, the Lord Chancellor has exercised patronage in relation to a number of parishes. The noble Earl may be acting, as I am sure that he always

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does, with complete correctness. I am fascinated to meet someone who is a patron, as I had never heard of that until this amendment appeared.
This is a very interesting and extremely specialised point, as the noble Baroness knows, in the light of the proposals made under the Constitutional Reform Bill and the application of the Mental Capacity Bill. We are considering what best to do and are doing so in consultation with the Church. I shall return with an amendment to sort out the matter properly, as soon as possible, taking on board what the noble Baroness and the noble Earl have said. I have to say that my favourite amendment is still the stamp one, but there we go. I hope the noble Baroness will withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Knight of Collingtree: Before the Minister reaches a conclusion on the matter and the whole business comes back to us, could we have some knowledge of the views of the bishops on this matter? If, for instance, they are not very anxious to take on this responsibility, could we at least know about it? It is a change and, when the matter is considered, it is one of the things that we ought to know. What is the view of the bishops themselves on the matter?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I suspect that the bishops will speak for themselves, any moment now.
The Lord Bishop of St Albans: I am most grateful to the Minister for allowing me to speak on my own behalf. As the Committee will be aware, the situation is intensely complicated for reasons of history, and so on. I know that very careful consideration has been given by the Church of England in conjunction with the Department for Constitutional Affairs and others as to how the schedule may resolve, in the light of much bigger issues. We are content at the moment that those conversations should go ahead, recognising all the anomalies that some have referred to, and recognising the importance of patronage.
I want to assure the House, while wearing a cassock in this particular case, that bishops enjoy exercising patronage. Just for interest's sake, I can tell the Committee that there are some dioceses, of which mine is one, where bishops exercise patronage only in slightly over 51 or 52 per cent of the cases, but of course all the responsibility falls to us if the patrons get it wrong. So there is some injustice still in the world.
Lord St John of Fawsley: It has been said, "Put not your trust in princes". You might vary that and say, "Put not your trust in Prelates". This is in one sense a very confined and technical argument; in another sense, it is not, because it is connected with the whole future of the parson's freehold, which is one of the great bastions of liberty left in this country.
There were only two institutions which were independent. One was the House of Lords, until the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, turned her countenance upon the issue and started interfering with its freedoms and independence. The other was the Church of England
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and the parsons. If they are to be reduced to people who can be moved about just at the will of a bishop, that will be a major threat to liberty.
When the Roman Catholic hierarchy was restored in 1850 in this country, leading, as the noble Baroness will recall, to the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill forbidding them to use their titles, those who were not restored at that time—I hope that the noble Baroness will let me see her countenance once again—the ordinary priests, were not restored in their independence. It is vital that that independence should be retained. That is why, although you get the odd eccentric, they are able to speak freely. Everyone else in this country is now some form of employee, some sort of petit fonctionnaire looking over their shoulder to see whom they can please.
Lord Carter: Will the noble Lord give way?
Lord St John of Fawsley: To the noble Lord, of course; I could think of nothing more delightful except giving way to the noble Baroness whose countenance is now so evasive.
Lord Carter: I just wondered whether the noble Lord was aware of the sentence in the Companion that says that a debate should be relevant to the question before the House.
Lord St John of Fawsley: I have a rather broader view than the noble Lord and can see the relevance very clearly. It is a question of liberty. Because it is a general question of liberty, it is relevant to this issue. We must be broad case and not lower case. Let us look at the broad print. Anyhow, I will not speak for very long. I just wanted to make that point. I hope that it will be noticed in the Synod—which is one of the afflictions with which the right reverend Prelates have to deal—that there is a very strong body of opinion in this House and elsewhere that wants the parson's freehold to be preserved and would regard any inroad into that as a major attack and assault on the liberty and freedom of the Church.
The Lord Bishop of Winchester: This is delicate ground, and far be it from me to adjudicate between the noble Lord, Lord St John of Fawsley, and the noble Lord, Lord Carter. The House will make its own decisions. I observe, first, that I do not think that we should simply sit down under his description of the Synod because people might say that we agreed with him were we to do so. I will not say any more about that either.
My guess is that the significant issue here about which discussions will be going on, if I may presume to say so, is other than that to which he has drawn attention. The significant issue could be—I am not party to the discussions although I guess some of us will be consulted at some point—somewhere in the region of the participation of the Crown in matters ecclesiastical. I suspect that that is where the issue lies. It may be, although again I do not know, that part of the motivation of the amendment is to shift patronage to the bishops and away from the Crown and the Lord

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Chancellor. If that is so, then the issue is certainly other and it is certainly delicate. I think it might just be worth making those observations.
Lord St John of FawsleyI think that the right reverend Prelate has made a most important point, the beneficial side effect of which was to justify my intervention against the imprudent attempt to silence me by the noble Lord, Lord Carter. The noble Lord has held many offices. I wonder whether he has ever been Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. Well, I have.
Lord Carter: If it will help the noble Lord, I have been Captain of the Honourable Corps of the Gentlemen-at-Arms.
Lord St John of Fawsley: That is one of the greatest dignified parts of the constitution, but the position of Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster is part of the efficient parts of the constitution by which we rule and govern.
When I was Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster— if I may be allowed to return to the train of thought which has been providentially prompted by the right reverend Prelate—I had a considerable degree of patronage. However, mindful of the statute of primuni, which places certain penalties on the members of the Church to which the noble Lord, Lord Carter, belongs if they exercise this patronage, I decided to refrain from exercising it altogether and put it entirely in the hands of my officials. However, the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster is a figure who is much closer to Her Majesty the Queen than the Lord Chancellor. Therefore the point made by the right reverend Prelate is very germane because this affects the patronage of the Duchy of Lancaster where, of course, the Queen is Head of State in virtue of her position of Duke of Lancaster and not as Queen of this country.
I thank—I was almost going to say most reverend Prelate—the right reverend Prelate for his extraordinarily helpful, diplomatic, eirenical and ecumenical intervention.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: The purpose of this amendment is to deal with what we have been dealing with today and throughout the course of this Bill; namely, the issue of capacity and what we should do to retain the theme of the Bill regarding best interest while addressing a very specialised point concerning individuals who might lose capacity, and therefore the relationship between the duties and responsibilities they have and those on the receiving end of those duties and responsibilities.
These are important issues and we need to continue the dialogue. It is not a question of the broader issues, although I accept that the noble Lord has every right to discuss those, because today we are discussing the issue of capacity. It is in that spirit that I say to the noble Lord that we will continue to discuss with the right reverend Prelate and others how best to deal
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with what we would do if someone who had this patronage lost capacity to ensure that we supported that individual and dealt with the relevant issues.
In that spirit and with my countenance firmly upon the noble Lord—however, I do not hear with my countenance; I hear with another part of me and therefore I can still listen with great interest to the noble Lord while not always looking at him directly— I hope that on that basis he will feel satisfied that I am acting completely properly in saying that we should continue that dialogue and return to this matter at Report.
Lord St John of Fawsley: Let me assure the Minister before she sits down that, of course, I accept the bona fides of her intentions; I have never doubted them for a moment. She is one of the most honourable Members of this House. She has taken an extraordinarily active and constructive part in these debates. She has taken immense trouble. She must have spent hours studying the matter, and I fully appreciate it. I merely thank her very much and say to her, "God bless you", by which in this context I mean, "God help you".
Baroness Barker: I told the Committee this was the best amendment in the whole Bill and so it has proved.
The noble Baroness is right—the bigger question of constitutional reform was no doubt an inspiration to my noble friend Lord Goodhart. However, he tabled this amendment—I speak to it in his stead—within the context of this debate and this Bill. It is about coming to appropriate decisions for individuals taking into account all relevant matters. We would not want to prejudice the outcome of what I realise are very important and delicate negotiations. It is our view that perhaps the locus for those decisions is within the Church rather than with the Lord Chancellor.
I am glad to hear that those discussions are continuing and I wish them well. This debate has been useful, not least because I did not know that the noble Earl, Lord Howe, had had that experience. It has been an interesting and fascinating debate. I am reminded of the words of one of my former colleagues. One might expect me to quote Lord Russell, but I shall not. Instead, I shall quote Lord Harris of Greenwich, who was Chief Whip when I entered the House. He said:
"It is possible to speak in this House on a subject about which you know nothing, but, personally I would not do it".
As someone who was raised as a Methodist, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
5.30 p.m.
Schedule 2 agreed to.
Clause 19 [Appointment of deputies]:
[Amendments Nos. 70A to 72 not moved.]
Clause 19 agreed to.
Clause 20 [Restrictions on deputies]:
[Amendments Nos. 73 to 78 not moved.]
Clause 20 agreed to.
Clause 21 [Transfer of proceedings relating to people under 18]:
On Question, Whether Clause 21 shall stand part of the Bill?
Baroness Barker: In essence, the clause seeks to deal with issues relating to people aged between 16 and 18. When the Bill was debated in another place, my honourable friend Paul Burstow asked the Minister how the Children Act would interrelate with the Bill in relation to those young people. My honourable friend received an interesting and helpful letter from David Lammy on 31 October 2004, which was circulated to other parties in another place. Mr Lammy helpfully stated:
"The Children Act 1989 applies to all children up to the age of 18, whilst the Mental Capacity Bill applies to people aged 16 and above who lack capacity. There is thus some overlap between the two",
and that cases could be heard,
"either in a family court or in the Court of Protection".
He said that Clause 21 enabled the Lord Chancellor to direct that a case be heard in whichever court would be most relevant. Mr Lammy helpfully set out that the family court would be the best place when an issue was likely to be one-off. An issue regarding someone aged 16 to 18 whose incapacity was likely to endure could be heard in the Court of Protection.
I tabled this amendment simply to ask the noble Baroness: given the powers of the Lord Chancellor in this clause, how people who lack capacity, or the carers of those people, influence that decision regarding which court matters will be decided in and which piece of legislation would be paramount. Is there a trigger process that can determine which of the two courts should consider the matter?
The noble Baroness may not have anticipated that question. If she did not, I would be happy for her to write to me to clear up that matter. It is important that we establish the ways in which young people with incapacity and, particularly, their carers, will know which legislation is relevant to them.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I am grateful to the noble Baroness. I was not specifically anticipating that point, although it is important. The noble Baroness is right—the intention behind this provision is that the Lord Chancellor, through order-making powers, should be able to determine the circumstances that would be specified in the order concerning how a young person would best be dealt with.
For example, if the parents of a 17 year-old who has profound learning difficulties are in dispute with each other about residence or contact, it might be more appropriate for the Court of Protection to deal with that, since a Section 8 order made under the Children Act 1989 would expire on the child's eighteenth birthday at the latest. It is about making sure that we have that recognition. The objective is to try to determine the circumstances. The noble Baroness raised an important point about ensuring the input
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from those closest to the young person, where you do not have disputes between them. I shall write to her on that.
Baroness Barker: I am grateful to the noble Baroness.
Clause 21 agreed to.
Clause 22 agreed to.
Clause 23 [Powers of court in relation to operation of lasting powers of attorney]:
[Amendment No. 79 not moved.]
Clause 23 agreed to.
[Amendment No. 80 not moved.]
Clause 24 [Advance decisions to refuse treatment: general]:
Baroness Ashton of Upholland Baroness Ashton of Upholland moved Amendment No. 81:
Page 14, line 24, leave out "In this section and sections 25 and 26,"
The noble Baroness said: As we have discussed already, advance decisions to refuse treatment are a choice that people can exercise if they wish. As I have indicated to your Lordships, we should remember that they are valid in common law now; therefore they are not new. Our concern in framing provisions in the Bill is to make it clearer to everyone when an advance decision is binding and when it is not. We have spent some time this afternoon discussing the issues around the safeguards to advance decisions. I am pleased to bring forward this amendment and to speak to the other amendments in the group.
The amendments add new safeguards and make it clear that an advance decision will not apply to any treatment that a doctor considers necessary to sustain life, unless strict formalities have been complied with. These formalities are that the decision must be in writing; must be signed and must be witnessed. In addition, there must be an express statement that the decision stands even if life is at risk. Noble Lords will recall that in the course of our deliberations today we talked about the fact that it is not a moment in time when a treatment could be life-sustaining. There are many treatments that are in some circumstances life-sustaining and in others not. It is important that if a person were to say, "I do not wish to receive this treatment", that they would say too, "even if life was at risk". That might be antibiotics, blood transfusions, chemotherapy or whatever.
These amendments amount to new and significant measures to meet concerns that have been raised by your Lordships, both in your Lordships' House and elsewhere, by Members of another place, and by the Joint Committee on Human Rights. These formalities clearly tip the balance of advance decisions even further in favour of preserving life. For example, a verifying statement would make it clear that the maker of an advance decision was fully aware of the possible consequences of their refusal. The amendments to Clause 24 make clear that a partial or full withdrawal of an advance decision does not need to be in writing.

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That allows people to say when they arrive in hospital, "Forget it, I do not want that advance decision to stand", and not have treatment denied them because they have changed their mind verbally. I am sure that noble Lords will accept that is an important element.
However, if there is an alteration to an advance decision relating to life-sustaining treatment, that would need to be in writing and the formalities complied with. In other words, if someone sought to add in other treatments, or to change the circumstances, they would have to put that in writing, but withdrawing agreement to that advance decision could be done verbally.
I want to make it clear what "in writing" can mean. Noble Lords will appreciate that I had to consider this carefully. In a sense this led us to think about it carefully before bringing it forward. It means that an advance decision can be written by a family member or recorded in medical notes by a doctor or healthcare professional, and it can include electronic records. If P—the patient— is unable to sign the advance decision, it can be signed in his presence and by his direction. That is specifically to ensure that we do not discriminate against people who, for whatever reason, are unable to write but have the capacity to make decisions.
For the purposes of accuracy, I should explain that we remove the words:
"In this section and sections 25 and 26",
from the beginning of Clause 24 because of a number of references to advance decisions elsewhere in the Bill. I beg to move.
Lord Carter: I tabled Amendment No. 86 as an amendment to the government amendment, to ask my noble friend why, in partially accepting the recommendation of the Joint Committee, she has not gone all the way. I remind her that the recommendation was:
"In most circumstances we believe that it would be reasonable for the Bill to require that advance decisions to refuse treatment should be recorded in writing and witnessed by two independent persons having no financial interest in that person's estate".
That is the first point. One person—perhaps a family member—might well have a financial interest in the estate, which is why we recommended that there be two. We said that they should both have no financial interest.
We went on:
"An exception might, however, be made where the decision was taken during ongoing medical treatment in which case it should be recorded by the doctor in charge of the treatment in the patients notes and independently witnessed".
My noble friend said that if something is in the notes it is in writing, but would it be independently witnessed in the notes? In their reply, the Government said:
"The Government is seriously considering this recommendation and how best we can ensure that advance decisions are made with full understanding of their consequences and free from coercion. However, there is a risk that a formal process for making an advance decision would require a formal process for revoking the decision, thus discouraging people (or making it very difficult for them) from making clear that that they have changed their decision".
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Presumably the Government have moved away from their concern about the formal process of revoking the decision, because Amendment No. 83 states:
"A withdrawal (including a partial withdrawal) need not be in writing".
That is fine, if we understand it. Their concern was about a formal revocation, and now they are happy with what I would call an informal revocation.
The question of the material interest of one or two witnesses—I shall come back to the number—is important, as was borne out only this week by the first progress report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights. It is an extremely interesting report with a section on the Bill, and I am sure that the Government will respond to a number of its recommendations in this area and others on the Bill. The Joint Committee states, at paragraph 4.23:
"A number of other procedural safeguards may also be appropriate, for example a requirement that a witness to an advance directive not be a person who stands to gain from the person's death, or employed at the relevant health care establishment which is caring for the person".
I wish that I had seen that before I had drafted Amendment No. 86, because I would have certainly added that extremely important point about employment at the relevant healthcare establishment.
There is concern about the question of the financial interest of the witness in the estate of the person making the advance decision. Amendment No. 84, which is in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Howe, makes the same point, but still seems to be based on only one witness. I think that, in drafting his amendment, he has accepted the one witness in the Government's amendment, but his amendment says that,
"it is not valid if it is formally witnessed by a person who has a material interest in the consequences of the withholding or withdrawal of the treatment".
I understand the Government's position. They think that a family member—the husband or wife—may wish to be the witness. Would it not be sensible to allow that by having two witnesses, one of whom could be the family member but making sure that there is another, independent witness who has no financial interest or is not employed by a healthcare employer, which is the construction that the Joint Committee suggested? The matter is important.
The amendment is obviously an attempt to probe the Government's opinion, but there is a strong argument for the recommendation made by the Joint Committee.
5.45 p.m.
Baroness Chapman: My name is added to Amendment No. 87 in this group. It is designed to ensure that a rash or uninformed statement made 20 years ago cannot today create circumstances which could result in life-saving treatment being withdrawn and possibly death. Many people make verbal statements to the effect of, "I wouldn't want to live if that happened to me", or even a glib statement such as, "If that happens to me, flick the switch!".

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The intention behind the amendment is to review a possibly life-ending decision as a person's life experiences increase. For example, a 20 year-old might say that he would wish to refuse treatment if he developed a progressive condition. But if he then developed that condition, he might adapt to his new state. Accepting a condition can be similar to accepting the changes to our bodies during the ageing process. At that point, the person could be completely at ease with having treatment and his previous statement would become invalid. This is particularly important when a condition causes communication skills to diminish.
A review of an advance decision would remove the obvious doubt created by a lengthy time span between the statement being made and the situation that a person was now in. A two-year cycle would allow for leaps in medical knowledge and improvements in treating many medical conditions.
Earl Howe: I shall speak briefly to Amendments Nos. 84 and 91, which stand in my name. First, I am quite content to defer to the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Carter, on the question of conflict of interest. The case that he made is very persuasive and I shall not dig my heels in on the terms of my amendment, which nevertheless was designed to achieve substantially the same end.
I turn to Amendment No. 91. Clause 26 makes clear that, where there is doubt about the validity or applicability of an advance decision or about whether it exists, the matter may be referred to the court for determination. That is a welcome provision, but I should like to probe the Minister on it because we need to understand what might be involved in questioning whether an advance decision exists.
I see several types of situation where the existence of an advance decision might be challenged. One is where a doctor has reason to believe that the incapacitated person was put under some kind of improper pressure to make the decision, and another is where he believes that the individual was mentally incapacitated at the time the decision was made. He might, for example, suspect that the patient had dementia, or the patient might be a drug addict or he might have been suffering from a bout of very severe depression which skewed his judgment when making the decision.
But there is another situation which, if proved, might lead a court to declare an advance decision to be null and void. That is where the person had mental capacity when he made the decision but clearly did not understand what the decision meant. I am thinking of two main ideas here: one is where the person says that if he should ever be thought to be in the last stages of a terminal illness, he would want all treatment to be withheld. The problem might be that, in saying that, he might not appreciate that treatment would include the administration of artificial nutrition and hydration. It might be possible for the person's wife or carer to come forward and say, "But when Jim said 'treatment', what he meant was chemotherapy. He didn't mean that he wanted to be deprived of artificial nutrition and liquids".
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The other idea relates to a more complex situation. It is where the advance decision was made in relation to, say, a particular illness and the person in question says something along the lines of, "When I reach such and such a stage in this illness, I do not want this or that medication". But the person might have a completely misconceived notion of what it would be like to experience the illness in question or to receive the treatment that he had decided to refuse. It could be that he made the decision not on the basis of a discussion with his doctor about all the ins and outs of the illness and its treatment but on the basis of something that he had heard from a mate at work which was completely wrong. Again, the man's wife might come forward and say, "But Jim was always told X, Y and Z. He never realised that that was not correct. If he had, he would never have made the advance decision".
That kind of case is not the same as one where the circumstances have changed between the making of a decision and the time when it is implemented. Where the doctor reasonably believes that the circumstances have changed, the Bill allows him to regard the decision as not applicable. The kind of situation that I have in mind has more to do with what the person understood or misunderstood when he signed the piece of paper.
I am the first to acknowledge that we do not want to nanny people. We cannot go around second-guessing people's considered decisions willy nilly, but we should allow for the case in which there is clear evidence that someone did not understand what he was saying, or that he said it on the basis of a completely false premise.
Baroness Knight of Collingtree: Before my noble friend sits down, in addition to the excellent points that have been made, would he include a situation in which, due to the distance of time since the original request was made—the information on which the person acted may well have been correct at the time—medical advance has happened so fast, as it does, that the decision has been overtaken by events? I believe that can and could happen.
Earl Howe: I entirely agree with my noble friend, but the Bill caters for that precise set of circumstances. When there have been medical advances and there has been quite a distance of time between the creation of the advance decision and the time when it comes to be put into effect, as the Bill is worded, the doctor is allowed to take that into account and he may safely treat, if he is in any doubt about the applicability of the advance decision. When the Minister replies I believe that we shall find that the concern of my noble friend has already been addressed, although I completely agree with her that if it has not been, we need to focus on it.
In conclusion, I warmly welcome the Government's amendments to this clause. I agree with the Minister that they buttress the provisions in a most helpful way and we can only but be grateful to her for the care that she has taken in this regard.
Lord Brennan: I wish to speak to the government amendments and to my Amendments Nos. 85A and 89. This is an important group of amendments because

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it seeks, as my noble friend has just said, to ensure that there are strict formalities and clarity and it seeks to avoid confusion or doubt about how an advance decision should fall to be applied. I welcome that objective.
First, I want to comment on what advance decisions mean in connection with life-sustaining treatment. Then I want to deal with Amendment No. 85A and, finally, with Amendment No. 89.
I invite the Committee's attention to what is meant by life-sustaining treatment. At present, the Bill in its interpretation clause, refers us back to the definition at Clause 4(10):
""Life-sustaining treatment' means treatment which in the view of a person providing health care for the person concerned is"— I emphasise the next few words— "necessary to sustain his life".
It is important for us to realise that we are not talking only about people who are dying; we are talking about people who are alive but who may need life-sustaining treatment to keep them alive. There is a distinction between that and the natural process of dying.
I am not being critical of the government amendments; I am seeking to probe how this provision will work. How will this life-sustaining treatment provision, in the definition and in Clauses 24 to 26, be considered first by the person making the decision and then by the doctor who may have to implement it?
Clause 24(2)—I presume this embraces a life-sustaining decision—states that,
"a decision may be regarded as specifying a treatment or circumstances even though expressed in layman's terms".
So we have a definition which is medical in its nature— Clause 4(10). We also have a provision for the decision to be in layman's terms—all that is in the hands of the person making the decision. Then comes how it is to be interpreted by a doctor in due course.
In Amendment No. 83 we are first reassured that any alterations to an advance decision still have to be in writing if they involve life-sustaining treatment. So the need for formality and clarity continues in this particular context.
Amendment No. 85 contains a strong provision in what would become Clause 25(5). It states:
"An advance decision is not applicable to life-sustaining treatment unless—(a) the decision is verified by a statement by P [the person] to the effect that it is to apply to that treatment even if life is at risk".
So either before or after the word "even" we should put a bracket which says "not only if life is at risk"; "even if life is at risk" is a matter of emphasis and not distinction.
What happens where, in either the original decision or in the alteration, in layman's terms the person is expected to "verify"—that has a legal ring to it—to make it clear that the decision is to apply to life-sustaining treatment, even if life is at risk? That is not a legal academic question because at Clause 26(2)—sorry to take the matter slowly, but it needs to be looked at carefully—when all this happens, the doctor, usually,
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"does not incur liability for carrying out or continuing the treatment unless, at the time, he is satisfied that an advance decision exists which is valid and applicable to the treatment".
So it is up to that doctor or medical person to make his or her decision whether that which is provided for in Clauses 24 and 25 and these amendments is going to work.
I am going to draw a case to the attention of the Committee, and noble Lords may wish to consider it between now and Report. It is called W Healthcare NHS Trust and KH and Others decided by the Court of Appeal on 17 September last year. I regret that it was brought to my notice only yesterday. In it the court expressly considered the circumstances said to have given rise to a common law advance decision. It used these kinds of words to test whether the decision worked. The words were strong. For example, it said:
"The continuing validity of the advance directive must be clearly established by convincing and inherently reliable evidence".
To put it another way: has the person making the decision catered for every possible eventuality? These are strict aspects of the common law which the courts apply. The Bill does not add to or detract from that approach. Implicitly, it confirms that that rigour needs to be exercised by government Amendment No. 85.
6 p.m.
I invite my noble friend to confirm, if not today in precise terms but later, that I have understood the process correctly; namely, that, ultimately, it comes down to whether the doctor has a doubt about whether this is a decision to apply. I repeat—it is a doctor's decision, where he does not have to persuade himself of his own approach. The test, to which I referred Members of the Committee in Clause 26(2), is not to be applied unless he is satisfied that it is valid and applicable.
If I have understood all of that correctly, and this continues to apply, as I have no doubt it will to the Bill when it becomes law as it does to the common law, we are dealing with a stern set of circumstances in the context of life-sustaining treatment. I am gratified that my noble friend the Minister seems to agree with my analysis. I thought that it would be helpful for Members of the Committee to realise that this is how the law will fall to be applied. There should be no vagueness or inattention to proper analysis. There should be very great care, because life is at stake.
By way of encouragement to my noble friend and the Government, perhaps I may now go yet further in their expressed desire to seek to preserve life in the context of advance decisions. On Tuesday, the Government introduced their Amendment No. 13 relating to the "best interests" clause. It was put that a decision-maker, a proxy or doctor in making a decision about best interests should not be motivated by a desire to bring about the death of the person involved. It was a further step by the Government which I and many noble Lords have welcomed.
However, it has a corollary. The proxy and the doctor may be dealt with, but what about the person if his advance decision is motivated by a desire to bring

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about his own death? I mean a suicidal desire in the strict sense of the word; namely, "I will cause my own death if I can".
Amendment No. 85A involves a very serious topic for the House to consider. I have expressly used the words from government Amendment No. 13 by way of repetition to show that the same objective is at play. People should not be motivated by the desire to bring about a death. I have introduced the amendment because, as Archbishop Peter Smith of the Catholic Church, for example, has said:
"We believe an amendment [such as this] is needed to send a clear signal that the Bill does not give validity to expressly suicidal advance decisions, and have proposed an amendment that we believe would not overburden doctors in these difficult cases".
In substance, that is the amendment, which perhaps we may examine briefly. First, the Suicide Act decriminalised suicide. It did so not to help the suicidal to commit suicide—an absurd result—rather to help the suicidal not to commit suicide, by enabling them to avoid the stigma of the crime if they did or attempted to commit suicide and to have medical treatment, and so on. So the Suicide Act did not create a right to kill yourself. It is a complete misinterpretation of British law for anyone to consider that to be the position.
Note that I used the words "to kill yourself". That is entirely different from someone who wishes not to undergo further futile or overly burdensome treatment. What the Suicide Act also provides, as my noble friend Lord Carter observed on Tuesday, is that even though we have decriminalised suicide, anyone who assists in a suicide—"aids, abets, procures or encourages"—will commit an offence punishable by up to 14 years' imprisonment. It cannot be thought that the Suicide Act in any way sought to diminish the gravity of assisting someone to kill themselves; rather it confirmed it by abolishing the crime of suicide and preserving the crime of assisting a suicide.
Therefore, since there is no right to kill yourself, and since there is no right to die in the context of being able to ask someone to help you to die—see the case of Pretty, which was so important a while ago—what is to be done when we face circumstances in which a person wants to use an advance decision to achieve a suicidal intent? On Tuesday, my noble friend Lady Ashton said:
"If an advance decision read, 'I wish to kill myself', that is not an advance decision. An advance decision is a refusal of certain treatment. It has to be treatment-specific and circumstance-specific".[Official Report, 25/1/05; col. 1182.]
I agree, but that is not the end of the matter, it is the beginning. What is the position where the advance direction states, to use my noble friend's example, "I do not wish to be given antibiotics if I am in the final stages of terminal cancer. I wish to be enabled to die."? Is that tainted because it expresses a decision about treatment with another objective; that of achieving a death?
If it is thought that we are dealing with cases just of the written word, I think not. My amendment talks about an express motivation, a desire to bring about your own death. That does not have to be set out in a written decision. I shall give two examples, one
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particular and one general. Let us suppose that someone signs an advance decision in a hospital in front of a doctor who, a few minutes before, had heard the person saying to a relative, "I've had enough of this. I want to die. Get me something that will enable it to happen.". The paper is put in front of that patient and she signs it. The doctor has heard the exchange. There is no bona fide intention to withhold treatment within the context of Clause 24; the expressed motivation is to die. If my noble friend responds by saying that that is covered by Clause 26(2) because the doctor can say that the advance decision is not valid, I shall be reassured. However, I do not think it does so with sufficient clarity.
I turn to a more general example. Once the legislation is passed, let us suppose that the Voluntary Euthanasia Society or a similar organisation seeks to explain to people how they can achieve voluntary euthanasia by making advance decisions which comply with the legislation provided that certain words are not used. Is that what the Bill intends to apply in society? I find that very difficult to believe. Let us suppose that several people regularly arrived at one hospital with the same form of advance decision, and it became clear that it was the product of an organisation assisting them to bring about their own death. What would happen, even though the advance decision in its formal terms applies to the provisions of Clause 24?
I have raised these matters because they are very important. They concern intention and motivation, topics that we raised on Tuesday but which I do not want to enter into again. The ways in which advance decisions will work are extremely important for the Committee to consider.
I close by turning to Amendment No. 89, which would amend Clause 25. It concerns a simple proposition which is democratic in its intent. If we are changing the law by making advance decisions, of statutory and binding effect, the place where they will usually be paid attention to is in a hospital. What is the policy of the Government and the view of our society as to the way in which advance decisions will be used or provided by hospitals? Are we to have a say in it or not? Is it to be left to the national health system to implement it in hospitals, some yes, some no? How? Is an advance decision that you sign on day one of going into hospital in year "X" valid 10 years later, or do you get a fresh one each time you go in? What happens?
In America, the states that have this kind of legislation legislated for it; parliament decided. It would be most unfortunate, would it not, if after the passing of the Bill advance decisions came into general use, with a variety of different interpretations and connotations in different hospitals and different parts of the country, without Parliament having a say?
This has an important concluding significance. In 1977, an adviser to President Carter advised him to change social values regarding cost-inducing activities and said that the cost saving from a nationwide push towards living wills was likely to be enormous—more than one-fifth of Medicare expenditure was on persons in the last year of their life. So are we or are we not to

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have resource-driven change without parliamentary control? That is my concern and I wonder how it is to be dealt with.
Lord Alton of Liverpool: With his usual forensic skills, the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, in the amendments that he has laid before the Committee, has taken us back to some of the crucial life and death decisions about which we are legislating.
During his remarks, the noble Lord drew our attention to the case of W Healthcare Trust v KH and others which was decided in September 2004. It is a case on which we need to reflect as we proceed towards Report stage because, in many respects, it has a bearing on the decisions we are taking. For instance, my noble friend Lady Chapman referred earlier to how sometimes casual remarks might be interpreted as being decisions that a person wishes to be acted upon in the future.
This particular case, for instance, concerned a 59 year-old lady who had been suffering from multiple sclerosis since the middle of the 1970s. She had expressed the wish to a relative at one stage that she simply did not want, if the circumstances arose, any machines to carry on sustaining her life. "I do not want to be kept alive by machines", is what she is reported to have said to her daughter.
Reflecting on those words, it was stated quite clearly in the judgment that that simply was not enough to allow such a procedure to occur. So we have to be clear on the face of the Bill in what circumstances such decisions would be able to be acted upon.
But what happened in this case was not about machines; it was a non-PVS case in which the PEG providing nutrition was accidentally severed from the patient and the issue arose as to whether or not the PEG should be reinserted. It was the view of the relatives that the PEG should not be reinserted and it was the view of the clinicians that it should be. In fact, it was the unanimous view, according to Lord Justice Brooke, of those responsible for her care that it should be reinstated.
I was struck, as was the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, by the force of the judgment in this very recent case— we are talking about the autumn of last year—both where the Lord Justice refers to the decision of the first judge to hear the case and then gives his own view. He said:
"I cannot say that life-prolonging treatment (in this case feeding via the PEG) would provide no benefit".
He had earlier stated:
"The Court cannot in effect sanction the death by starvation of a patient who is not in a PVS state other than with their clear and informed consent or where their condition is so intolerable as to be beyond doubt".
He also said,
"in my judgment the law has not yet reached the stage where their arguments"—
those of the relatives—"can rule the day".
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I have two other brief comments about the judgment which relate directly to the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Brennan. The first judge came to the conclusion that it was in the best interests of the patient to accede to the unanimous wish of those who were responsible for her treatment. Mr Justice Brooke says,
"judges have to apply the law as they find it. English law, as it stands at present, places a very heavy burden on those who are advocating a course which would lead inevitably to the cessation of a human life. In my judgment, it is impossible for this court to interfere with the judge's judgment".
Elsewhere in these proceedings Mr Justice Munby is quoted from the case HE v A Hospital NHS Trust [2003], a relatively recent case. He said:
"Where, as here, life is at stake, the evidence must be scrutinised with a special care. The continuing validity of the advance directive"—
a point which has been made throughout our debates about the importance of having continuing care programmes—
"must be clearly established by convincing and inherently reliable evidence".
The noble Lord made that point when addressing his amendments.
6.15 p.m.
There are nine amendments in the group, and I should like to say why I support a number of them and have added my name to some of them. Before I do so, I say in parenthesis, that in tabling Amendment No. 86, the noble Lord, Lord Carter, has, as the noble Earl said when he addressed Amendment No. 84, done the Committee a service by bringing the issue of conflict back before us. I support what he said and agree with the noble Earl that it probably does the job better.
I strongly support the buttressing effect the noble Earl referred to concerning his Amendment No. 91 which deals with undue influence, understanding and capacity. Although the Minister may say that it is otiose and is already provided for in the legislation, sometimes it is worth saying things twice when they are of such importance.
I, too, welcome government Amendment No. 85. It properly provides that advance decisions are not applicable to life-sustaining treatments, unless they are in writing and witnessed, like a will. This is therefore very welcome. However, as in the case of second opinions, to which I referred earlier, it is worth remarking that this issue could have been avoided if the template of the Scottish legislation—the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Act 2000—had been followed.
I was looking at the Green Paper which preceded the Scottish Act, in which the Scottish Executive made this important statement:
"We have examined carefully a number of other proposals made by the Scottish Law commission, by the Alliance for the Promotion of the Incapable Adults Bill, and by others. Such proposals have included legislation to give clear legal force to Advance statements ("Living Wills") and to provide for the withholding or withdrawal of treatment from patients who may be in … PVS. Although such proposals have the sincere support of particular interest groups, we do not consider that they command

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general support. Attempts to legislate in this area will not adequately cover all situations which might arise, and could produce unintended and undesirable results in individual cases".
We should take that warning to heart as we consider doing precisely that.
Paragraph 2.29 of the Scottish code of practice for persons authorised to carry out medical treatment or research under Part 5 of the Act had this to say about advance decisions:
"A competently made advance statement made orally or in writing to a medical practitioner, solicitor or other professional person would be a strong indication of a patient's past wishes about medical treatment but should not be viewed in isolation from the surrounding circumstances. The status of an advance statement should be judged in the light of the age of the statement"—
a point made by my noble friend Lady Chapman—
"its relevance to the patient's current healthcare needs, medical progress since the time it was made"—
a point made by my noble friend Lady Knight of Collingtree—
"and the patient's current wishes and feelings. An advance statement cannot bind a medical practitioner to do anything illegal or unethical. An advance directive is a document which specifically refuses particular treatments or categories of treatment. Such documents are potentially binding. When the medical practitioner contemplates overriding such a directive, appropriate guidance should be sought".
According to an independent survey of doctors in Britain conducted by Opinion Research Business for the Right to Life organisation in May last year, 76 per cent of doctors indicated that they shared the concerns of the House of Lords Select Committee on Medical Ethics that patients could deprive themselves of medical treatment developed after they had signed their directives. Almost half the doctors polled— 49 per cent—would seek advice from a colleague, which addresses the point about a second opinion, if they had an advance directive saying "no tube feeding" and were unable to confirm the directive at the time of treatment. Most doctors, some 71 per cent, claim that they would disregard an advance directive in circumstances where they felt that it would cause harm to the patient or did not seem to apply.
We should bear in mind what the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, said about protection, a point to which I shall return later. It is important that we are clear about an issue raised by the noble Lord, Lord Carter, in our proceedings on Tuesday about Part II of the Suicide Act 1961, and how that would affect a doctor in the circumstances described earlier.
We should also reflect on what the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Habgood, said to us on Tuesday. He said that it was not too late to reflect further on the desirability of not making these advance directives statutory. If we are not prepared to reconsider that, we should at least agree Amendments Nos. 85A and 87 as safeguards.
The Joint Committee on Human Rights has written to the Government asking whether the Government will be amending Clauses 24 to 26 to reflect the decision in Burke that advance decisions requesting treatment, including ANH—artificial nutrition and hydration— should be given the same status as advance decisions for
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refusing treatment. That is an important point. We need to know the Government's response to that. In his opinion on the Mental Capacity Bill, Richard Gordon QC makes the following point:
"There is no safeguard on the MCB (though the Code attempts to address the difficulties) for ensuring that advance decisions are properly scrutinised and true effect is given to the then competent patient's wishes".
The committee's report builds on that point in paragraph 2.46. It states:
"It is not clear to us why advance directives should not carry the additional safeguard that they should be required to be in writing. Second, the classification of ANH as "treatment" may not be well known to laypeople".
That point has already been made in your Lordships' House.
It is clear that the safeguards around advance decisions are far from satisfactory and place incapacitated patients at risk of having their Article 3 and Article 8 rights infringed. Disability Awareness in Action had this to say about the advance decisions:
"The MCB will make such instruments legally binding, which for anyone deemed 'incapable', whether through impairment or through temporary sedation (in hospital) has worrying implications. One of the strongest messages that comes from our society today is that if you are disabled person, or a sick person or an older person, you can no longer have control over your own life and that our lives are not worthy of living. This is particularly the case for disabled people, sick people and older people who require assistance to look after themselves.
"The MCB will create an environment in which older and disabled people (with capacity) are placed in an impossible situation at an impossible time with a risk of undue pressure placed on them to sign away any future right to decision-making by the completion of a legally binding Advance Decision document, whilst those people deemed 'incapacitated' are unlikely to ever experience the luxury of having such a choice.
Disability Awareness in Action continues:
"Advance Decisions, which are already operational in a few hospitals"—
it cites Hammersmith Hospital Trust, which was alluded to by the noble Lord, Lord Clarke of Hampstead, in our Second Reading debate—
"do not create greater choice, they actually limit choice. The potential for abuse of this kind of document is enormous—there is no protection from the pressure an individual may feel from others to opt out of receiving life saving treatment, and there is no safeguard in place if such a person has a change of heart once they are no longer able to communicate such a decision. Discussions about Advance Decisions are not possible until we are part of a society that supports and celebrates diversity and where treatment decisions are made without reference to",
cost and benefits—a point to which I referred during the Second Reading debate in the light of remarks made by the noble Baroness, Lady Warnock. She said that if people wanted to keep people alive, the cost should fall on the relatives. That is indicative of thinking that is increasingly prevalent in our society. Advance decisions do not appear in the Scottish Adults with Incapacity Act 2000.
I should like briefly to draw the Committee's attention to the actual words of Amendment No. 85A, on page 13 of the Marshalled List. I and my noble

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friend Lady Masham have put our names to the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Brennan. It says quite categorically:
"if it is expressly motivated by a desire to be assisted to bring about P's death".
That refers to advance decisions that are suicidally motivated, as the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, said.
I do not intend to reiterate everything that I said on Tuesday. I can promise the Minister that—and I know that she is looking at the clock, but these are important questions and none of us is going to be stampeded through the amendments. There are nine amendments in this group, and they are very different from one another, so I hope that the Committee will bear with me.
We still need clarity on how Section 2 of the 1961 Act will be affected by this Bill, and the Government need to tell us today how it will affect a medical professional faced with a patient who has attempted suicide when a note requires him to do nothing. The noble Lord, Lord Brennan, gave an example of someone who said that he did not wish to be treated with antibiotics. Will people such as that be open to prosecution? There are 14-year tariffs involved here, and we need to know. Without a satisfactory answer, it underlines why an amendment of this kind is so necessary.
Amendment No. 87, moved by my noble friend Lady Chapman, is an important amendment that seeks to ensure that advance decisions must be constantly reviewed and updated, otherwise they will cease to be valid and applicable. The Government may point to Clause 25(4)(b) and (c) and say that the Bill already covers that point, but it is important to be more specific. The Joint Committee on Human Rights, in its most recent report, argued:
"Advance directives should be time-limited to guard against the danger of directives being overtaken by developments in treatment and medicine or being forgotten about by a person who would have revoked it had they remembered its existence".
The Joint Committee also identified two other safeguards which it believes should be included in the Bill. I am very happy to talk outside the Committee to the Minister about those, and the importance of incorporating them.
Finally, on Amendment No. 89, at Second Reading the noble Lord, Lord Clarke of Hampstead, referred to the tick-box procedures which he said had been used at Hammersmith General Hospital. The Minister disputed that, but, whether it is true or not, we need to safeguard against National Health Service bodies promoting advance decisions through which patients would decline medical treatment in circumstances that would be of more benefit to the trust than to the patient. I refer the Minister to the letter's page in today's Times, on which Stephen Trott, the Rector of Pitsford with Boughton in Northampton, makes very concisely the point that I would prefer to make at greater length. He said:
"How much protection would there be in practice for an elderly, frightened and isolated patient in an anonymous nursing home, under pressure from relatives to put an end to the rapid drain on the family inheritance? How much pressure would there be upon doctors, conscious of scarce resources, to clear beds in hospitals?
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How quickly would society discount life's final stages, as it has done since the Abortion Act of 1968 in respect of life before birth?
Once the threshold is crossed, assisted dying will indeed come to resemble a veterinary system, with comparable criteria for assessment of the value of human life. Convenience and cost will feature prominently in the calculation".
Amendment No. 89 would require any form of advance decision to be approved by an affirmative resolution of Parliament. However, before Report, there would be value in extending the scope of Amendment No. 89 to include care homes. I hope that the Minister will consider that point, too.
Lord Carter: I shall be extremely brief, but the noble Lord, Lord Alton, picked up a point made by the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Habgood, and the noble Lord, Lord Walton, about this business of advance decisions being advisory. There has been an argument that they should be excluded from the Bill altogether. We considered this important matter in the Joint Committee. We considered that if advance decisions were not to have statutory force, it would leave in place the common law provisions which have made valid and applicable refusals effective, but the proposed powers of donees, deputies and the Court of Protection in the Bill to make healthcare decisions would have no common law equivalent. That is the strongest argument about them being given legal force.
We went on to state that if the Bill contains no mention of advance decisions to refuse treatment— that is the exclusion argument—and even if they are advisory and have no statutory force, the Court of Protection cannot be given a statutory power to decide whether an advance decision has been validly made. That would mean that the High Court would continue to resort to its inherent jurisdiction in relation to adults who lack capacity to resolve such matters. In other words, if we are to have the whole hierarchy of the donee, the deputy and the Court of Protection, all of which are built into the Bill, we will have to give legal and statutory force to advance decisions.
6.30 p.m.
Lord Alton of Liverpool: I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Carter. I have followed that argument and I agree with him that it looks as though the Government are determined to go in this direction anyway. I understand the reasons for that, and there are arguments on both sides. However, if that is to be the case, does he not accept that Amendments Nos. 85A and 87 would therefore be a useful contribution to addressing at least some of the concerns that noble Lords such as the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Habgood, raised?
Lord Carter: I am still puzzled by Amendment No. 85A, which states,
"expressly motivated by a desire to be assisted",
and the whole business of the Suicide Act.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: Slightly contrary to the tone of what has gone before, I thank the Government

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for having done what I have really wanted them to do, which is to ensure that these advance decisions are in writing and situation specific.
I have been trying to look at this from the clinician's point of view. I already do this with patients: we sit down and discuss matters that are very situation specific. In such cases I will record the matter in the case notes and get the patient to sign them. If possible, I will have someone in to witness. I can see that it is not practical to have two people come in to witness. I can see that it could be very complicated to find a witness in out-patients who has nothing at all to do with the healthcare establishment. Sometimes, in such cases, a manager who is trying to act independently will come in to witness the conversation. That is incredibly helpful.
I have added my name to the amendment seeking to extend the time-limit for the validity of such statements for the following reason. The difficulty in clinical practice is that one deals with shades of grey, whereas we are trying in the Bill to address the issue in black and white. The situation that I have described already pertains. I hope that the Committee will feel that, when a patient loses capacity, it is good practice to try to ascertain very specifically what he wants regarding a very specific aspect of his care.
Under the provision as currently worded, the clinician should go back and renegotiate. If the patient signals orally—as he probably will because he will be too ill to signal in writing—that advance decision will immediately fall and we are back to treating the patient. I have been in exactly that situation on many occasions when patients have decided that they want to have a bit of treatment after all and to give it a go. Some people change their mind as they progress through their disease but some do not. Some find it very helpful not to feel continually pressurised into doing something that they feel inside themselves is futile.
If we can deal with cases on a situation-specific basis, we can distinguish the futile from the suicidal intention. If my reading of the Bill is correct, Clause 58 will provide protection against suicidal intent. So when a patient is brought into casualty clutching a bit of paper which has been duly witnessed or whatever— and which may be part of the suicide pact—the casualty doctor on duty can look at it and immediately say, "That is not valid". She can record in the notes that it is not valid because it is a suicide note. She will, therefore, be able to go ahead and treat, supposedly against the patient's wishes, in order to sustain life.
I can see a possible advantage in having a double statement against suicide in order to avoid situations where people say that they want a specific treatment in order to hasten death. As I understand the provision as drafted, however, they will not be able to do that. They will only be able to say what they do not want done, but they are still entitled to good care and to supportive care. If they do not have good and supportive care, that would
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go against the wording of the Bill. They would have been denied the care that they ought to have. So all care would continue and the only thing that they are refusing is that very specific treatment. The situation where someone makes a vague statement, which is reported second-hand by the family, is precisely the thing which I had argued was incredibly dangerous behind the scene with the Government before the Bill ever appeared on the Floor of the House. I am very grateful that they have made the measure so specific. Unlike other noble Lords who have spoken, I welcome what the Government have done.
Baroness Greengross: I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay—the Government have taken an enormously important step by their insistence that advance directives are situation specific. They are not about assisted suicide. I am not a doctor or a lawyer but I have worked on end-of-life decisions for older people for a long time. At one time I had the enormous privilege of working on those decisions with the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans. That was a great privilege. We have discussed these issues at great length together.
I say to the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, that I very much respect his views and the brilliant way in which he argues them. However, in my view, for what it is worth, when the person he quoted said, "I do not want treatment. I do not want antibiotics. I want to be enabled to die", that meant that person did not want to be prevented from dying. That is what refusing treatment is about. It is not about committing suicide. I believe that is in line with the vows, and beliefs of the doctor profession in this country. Therefore, I consider that the Government have made very important concessions. I support the Government and not these amendments.
Baroness Masham of Ilton: I have added my name to two amendments in this group. However, all the amendments are very important. This debate, if it has done anything, has shown the Committee how complex the whole subject is. We are discussing life and death decisions. The noble Lord, Lord Brennan, is a lawyer. It is important that we are clear, as it is the law that will interpret it on the ground, that those people who want to live will be able to live, and that there will not be a complex muddle on the ground. I believe that is what the people outside are now looking to the House of Lords to sort out. I hope that we will be able to do that because it is not completely clear.
I have great admiration for my noble friend who is a doctor in palliative care and who works with life and death situations in her working life. But then there is the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, a lawyer, who says something different. Then there is my noble friend Lord Alton who says—I have my name to this amendment—that there should be a two-year break for people to be able to change their mind. Treatment changes, attitudes change, and I hope that the Government will agree to that amendment. But 1 do hope that tonight the Minister will be able to give us

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some assurances that all those people who want to live will be able to do so without having fear of going into hospitals or care homes.
Baroness Barker: I rise briefly to make a small contribution to what has been an enormously helpful debate in total. I do so because my colleague in another place, Paul Burstow, was instrumental, along with Members from all sides in another place, in doing the work that enabled the Government to reach this point. They should be congratulated, as should the Government. They are trying to walk a very fine line and legislation is not always a great means by which to do that, but the amendment is right.
The noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, was absolutely right. This is not about assisted suicide, this is about people making very specific statements about particular forms of treatment which they do not wish to receive. That, in itself, does not constitute a refusal of other treatment or an expression of a wish to be assisted to commit suicide. That is completely distinct.
As someone who stands back and listens a great deal in such debates, because I am not a professional in any of the key disciplines involved, I believe that the clarity achieved by the Government in their amendments is probably as near as it is possible to achieve. I have some sympathy for the Government, given that some people, for good and honourable reasons, will never be satisfied with any statement of this kind.
I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, whose views and approach to such matters I have listened to all the time I have been in this House—she is one of the best and most persistent advocates for patients who receive bad treatment across the NHS—that I truly appreciate her dilemma. Members of this House have different views. All of their contributions are made from entirely honourable motives. For me, this is ultimately a medical decision on which I would wish to listen to a doctor, rather than to a member of another profession, only because a medical situation changes so fast. That is why it is so important that the Government introduce amendments which enable statements to be withdrawn. Having said that, the requirement for a statement to be in writing is an enormous step forward and for which many people have worked to obtain. This House should be grateful for that and accept it.
6.45 p.m.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, this has been a very important debate.
I wish the noble Lord, Lord Rix, a happy birthday as he has joined us briefly. He will not mind me saying that he is 81 today. Also, the birthday of the noble Earl, Lord Howe, is approaching rapidly—I believe that it is on Saturday.
The noble Lord, Lord Alton, was right to say that I was looking at the clock. I was conscious that the noble Baroness, Lady Knight, has sat for an enormous amount of time waiting to speak to an important set of amendments that we shall not reach this evening. I
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understand what it is like to sit here waiting. We shall, of course, deal with the important issues that the noble Baroness wishes to raise when we return to Committee, and I thank her for staying to contribute this afternoon. I apologise, but, the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and my noble friend Lord Brennan wished to raise some important matters. That was why I was looking twitchy—it was for no other reason.
I am grateful for all the contributions to the important debate this evening. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, that I recognise the contribution that her honourable friend Paul Burstow and many others have made on this subject. It is always difficult to consider whether one puts in legislation a particular way of doing something. One must be mindful, as we have been, of not making it so difficult for people to do what we think would be a good thing that it becomes impossible.
The weight of opinion, not least from my noble friend Lord Carter—who always seems to get his way when it comes to work that I am in involved in—has been important in ensuring that we recognise how critical it is to have advance decisions done in the way that we have said. I am grateful for the welcome support that was underlying most of what noble Lords said. I do not think that any noble Lord said that what the Government did was wrong, but perhaps there was more enthusiasm in some quarters than others.
I was struck by what the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, said: "If I want to live, I should be allowed to live". I could not agree more. The Bill, above anything, is about life and celebrating life, and celebrating the right of people to quality of life; to not be labelled or discriminated against but to live their lives and participate in their own lives as far as possible. That is the fundamental core of what we seek to do. and that is why I have approached this Bill, as a Minister recently joined to its work, with enormous enthusiasm, because it is really important.
What the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, said about being prevented from dying is really important. I could not have expected a better speech than that from the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay. I hope that all noble Lords, both those present and those who were not able to be present, will read that, because there speaks experience, and there speaks real knowledge and compassion. If I were in that position, I hope that the noble Baroness would be looking after me.
It is important to consider where these decisions are made. As the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, has said on a number of occasions during proceedings on the Bill, they are often made on a day-to-day basis, in all types of circumstances and they are made in conjunction with the real need to ensure that basic, high-quality care is provided and to recognise that dying is as natural as living. We all find that difficult at times—I certainly do—but it is important. People should have the opportunity to die at home; to die in circumstances that are right and proper for them. That is completely different from someone committing suicide; I am talking about the natural process of death. That is an

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important distinction, and one that my noble friend Lord Brennan and the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and others, sought to make. It is true that we have to be absolutely clear on that.
A number of noble Lords, not least my noble friend Lord Brennan and the noble Lord, Lord Alton, referred to Section 2 of the 1961 Act. I will not read out that part of the Act, but advance decisions do not allow a doctor, or force a doctor, to do anything that would otherwise be illegal. The administering of drugs in lethal doses is not allowed. A valid advance decision is not regarded by the courts as suicide. A doctor who follows a valid, applicable advance decision is not aiding a suicide. Clause 58 is critical in this, and it is important to remember that that makes clear that the Bill does not change the operation of the Suicide Act.
Without taking too much time—though I recognise the importance of this debate—I want to work through the specific amendments and try to deal with some of the additional points raised on the way. I appreciate that the noble Earl said that he was happy to join in with the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lord Carter. Amendments Nos. 84 and 86 are about witnessing a signature to an advance decision, and the question of whether anyone has a financial interest. I understand and appreciate what is behind these amendments. My difficulty is that they are unworkable in practice. We must remember that you make the advance decision when you have capacity; it is your personal choice. We have made this requirement that says that in these circumstances you must make sure that you write, you sign, and someone must witness the signature, if it applies to life-sustaining treatment.
Let us think of a real-life situation. The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, asked how on earth you got two signatures and so on. I wonder how easy it would be for a doctor to know whether the person who witnessed the signature had a material interest in consequences of withholding or withdrawing treatment. The witness himself may not even know; we talked earlier about wills and whether someone would know their contents. Even children may know that they may inherit, but they may not know on what basis, in what context, how much and so on. That applies even more so to anyone who was not immediate family.
We could not really expect doctors to ask the person who signed the advance decision about the potential beneficiaries from their death. It would be impractical, not least because we are talking about people who lack capacity. I cannot go along with the idea, because it would not work. I understand the intention and am always willing to keep talking about such matters, but we could not make it work in the right way.
Earl Howe: I want to clarify what the noble Baroness said. Surely the point at issue is not whether, at the time that the decision comes to be implemented, the witness has an interest in the estate of the incapacitated person. It is a matter of propriety. Just as we have a law that says that you may not be a witness to a will if you are named
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as a beneficiary in it, it would be a simple matter to verify at the time that the instrument is created whether the witness was a beneficiary of that person's will. It is not therefore up to the treating clinician to have to verify anything about the status of the witness at the time that he comes to consider whether to put the decision into effect.
Lord Rix: I apologise for my late arrival at this very important debate. I am celebrating my birthday today, so perhaps am one year nearer having to make an advance decision. What the noble Earl said was correct. The person making the advance decision can ensure—perhaps in writing on the advance decision— that the witnesses are not beneficiaries in any shape or form.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I identify two problems with what Members of the Committee have said. The first is that I am not sure that, if I were making an advance decision, I would want the people witnessing it to know whether they would benefit from me at that point. The second problem is that I do not know who the noble Earl thinks will verify the fact. If you make an advance decision in writing in the way in which we have described and have it witnessed, there is no one to verify that fact until the point at which the advance decision will be used. Therefore, there will be no one to say that a person may have a financial interest.
I understand the logic, which is that one is seeking as many protections as possible against people being coerced or pressurised. However, we are talking about people who have capacity making a decision about a situation-specific form of treatment in the future that they wish not to have, and having someone witness that that is what they have done. As the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, said—we have accepted it in the spirit of the government amendments—that might include a clinician, witnessed by someone else. That brings us to the point about it not being someone who is part of the establishment of a hospital trust. A doctor or nurse would be an employee of the trust, but no one would suggest that, in witnessing, they were doing anything other than verifying that something was proper, valid and appropriate.
So I have a problem with that, but am very willing to talk more. My problem is not what is behind the amendment, but whether it is workable to do that without getting into problems with which we cannot deal. No doubt Members of the Committee will come back to that if they wish to discuss it further.
The noble Earl gave examples about treatment. Clause 24(l)(a) is specific. He talked about Jim's wife commenting to the effect that he did not understand what he was doing when he made the statement. If that was the case, the statement would be invalid. That is very straightforward. We have made it absolutely clear that, if there is any doubt whatever, the Bill is tilted very much in favour of treatment. That is a very different position from the common law at present.

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Therefore, a very important set of safeguards is included in the Bill and we should not lose sight of that. The noble Baroness, Lady Knight, who is no longer in her place, spoke of medical advances overtaking events, and the noble Earl, Lord Howe, verified what was in the Bill, for which I am very grateful. If the circumstances have changed and treatment has moved on with medical advances and so on, although a person might have said, "I would not like this particular treatment", a clinician can provide treatment because the circumstances are not as they were. To quote the example given by the noble Earl, there is no question in my mind that if Jim's wife said, "Well, he wrote this but he didn't understand what he was doing", the decision would be completely invalid. There is no question but that the physician would continue to provide the treatment. We need to be very clear about these issues because they are terribly important.
I turn to Amendment No. 87, which aims to put a shelf-life on an advance decision. We considered this issue at length because we wanted to question whether there was a need to renew a decision. The difficulty that we ran into was that any kind of shelf life put on a decision is necessarily arbitrary, and that then raises questions about whether advance decisions do or do not qualify. If the shelf life was five years, would the decision qualify after five years and one month had passed? The nature of the decision that one might take about a particular treatment in a particular set of circumstances could be outdated in months. Treatments could move on and situations could change, but other situations would stand the test of time. So we have approached the issue in a different way. We have included in the Bill a test of whether the decision is valid and applicable at the time that the decision is used.
Of course, I recognise that people should think carefully about updating such decisions. I support that idea and shall consider what might be done in the code of practice. But we are very clear that if a person does not anticipate the circumstances which then arise, the decision is not valid. We are constantly trying to say, "You have to be crystal clear about what you meant and you have to be crystal clear that the circumstances have not changed". We think that that gets us to where the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, wants us to be but in a better way because it does not assume that a time limit will make a difference. However, I accept that the noble Baroness also believes that we should be saying to people, "It's probably not a bad idea to think again and review what you have written". But, in terms of validity, I think that the test that we have is right. I hope that that will assist the noble Baroness in thinking through the matter.
Amendment No. 85A, which was spoken to very eloquently by my noble friend Lord Brennan and the noble Lord, Lord Alton, concerns an advance decision being "expressly motivated". As my noble friend said, and as the noble Lord, Lord Alton, knows very well from our discussions, the Government were minded to
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introduce Amendment No. 13 to make it clear that, when looking at all the issues surrounding best interests, you cannot be expressly motivated by a desire to cause someone's death.
In responding to my noble friend Lord Brennan, I shall talk about the law, but I hesitate to do so because I recognise that I am in the presence of an expert second to none. I think that my noble friend accepts that the legal framework underlying advance decisions is different. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, that the reason we are not in the same position as Scotland because Scotland does not have the common law basis, and, when legislating, it would have been wrong to ignore the whole area of mental capacity. It is very important that we deal with those issues and deal with them effectively, not least by including the safeguards that I have described.
Advance decisions affect only the people who choose to make them. They are decisions taken by the person concerned and not by a third party. Briefly, there are three reasons why I have difficulty with these amendments. First, they are inconsistent with the common law and the decisions that competent adults can take. Secondly, as I have already indicated, there are already significant safeguards to ensure that a doctor does not have to follow an advance decision if he is concerned that it might be expressly suicidal and thus not made with capacity.
I am fairly confident that I could address very quickly any example that noble Lords can come up with by looking at what the Bill says. We would be able to deal with someone arriving who clearly wishes to kill himself. No doctor would be able to say that that is an advance decision of the kind that I have described.
7 p.m.
Thirdly, the difficulty is whether this can be made workable. It is difficult because of betraying motives. In a sense, one knows that someone has a motive by what they say as well as by what they do. If one said, "I do not want this treatment because I want to kill myself, that would be an expressed desire and the doctor would act accordingly. Of course, anyone who was really serious about making an advance decision would try to sidestep that kind of language. So we have to be very clear as we could end up making the law less safe. People would in a sense move away from betraying what we would want them to do, which is express a suicidal motivation.
I do not believe that any suicide note would meet this Bill's stringent conditions anyway. If noble Lords look at the Bill again between now and Report, they will recognise that the Bill makes doctors freer than they are currently to give appropriate treatment in someone's best interests if they arrive at A&E having made any kind of suicide attempt. We are absolutely clear that when in doubt, doctors treat. We are absolutely clear that they are covered in terms of liability. That addresses all those concerns expressed by noble Lords and in another place that doctors could

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be sued or that doctors would not be clear about what to do. It is absolutely clear. If someone arrives, having attempted to kill themselves, a doctor can treat him or her regardless.
I know that these are very difficult issues. We have worked through with the noble Lord, Lord Alton, a couple of real examples that concerned him and we were pleased to do. I noticed noble Lords straying into talking about casual remarks. The noble Lord, Lord Alton, gave an example about a peg being removed from a patient. Such matters are not advance decisions; casual remarks are not advance decisions in this context. They have to be written, they have to be situation and treatment specific, and they have to be in layman's terms. It is important that people are able to write these decisions. Doctors can interpret layman's terms very effectively. We would not expect people to know the clinical names for particular things because that would be inappropriate; for example, antibiotics are antibiotics but they are not to a doctor because there are many different types.
Lord Alton of Liverpool: The point I was making from the judgment was precisely that: as it was just a casual remark, it certainly could not be taken as binding on the doctors who were treating the patient. The second point is that the peg was not removed; the peg had come apart accidentally and the ruling was that the peg should be reinserted over and above the wishes of the relatives of the patient on the basis that nutrition and hydration should be continued.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: Indeed, in a sense, the noble Lord and I are in agreement about that case. It is absolutely right that the patient should have continued to be treated.
Amendment No. 89 says,
"prescribed by regulation made by affirmative resolution of Parliament".
In effect, that is trying to find a standard format for advance decisions. Again, in practice we need to have a more flexible approach, partly because many people in this context will make decisions on treatment that they do and do not want, which will be recorded in their hospital notes, as the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, said. It would be very difficult to think about doing that in a prescribed way.
I am not sure—I do not think this has been suggested, but I want to add my voice to it—that we want NHS trusts providing forms. That would take us into a different world. Hammersmith Hospital has been much maligned. It was not doing what the press said. It was carrying out a survey of patients, and that was all. It was not trying to do advance decisions. I am very sorry that we keep hearing about that. It did not happen. I do not think any of us would be happy—the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, raised this point—if one were handed an advance decision form as one arrived at hospital. That is not the way we want to go at all.
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Turning to Amendment No. 91, there are three things for the court to consider in determining whether a decision exists: whether it was made under undue pressure; whether the person understood; and whether he had capacity at the time. I agree that the decision should be unambiguous; it should be considered: and it should not be made as a result of undue pressure. The courts will ask those precise questions.
The key is that the person has to have capacity in order to make the advance decision. He must be able to understand, use and weigh the information, which goes back to our discussions on Clause 3. It will include information about the reasonably foreseeable consequences of deciding one way or another. Case law also makes it clear that undue pressure can affect capacity, where a person's "will is overborne". So, if the court is making a declaration about an advance decision, all aspects of the legal tests for capacity will be investigated.
This has been a very important and interesting debate. I am very grateful to all Members of the Committee. I hope that in studying what we have said today noble Lords will go back to the Bill, which will include the government amendments, which I hope will be passed, and see that in all these areas we have protected doctors and patients but kept what is already a common-law right: that when you have capacity you can make decisions about your future.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendment No. 82 not moved.]
Baroness Ashton of Upholland Baroness Ashton of Upholland moved Amendment No. 83:
Page 14, line 36, at end insert—
"(4) A withdrawal (including a partial withdrawal) need not be in writing.
(5) An alteration of an advance decision need not be in writing (unless section 25(5) applies in relation to the decision resulting from the alteration)."
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendment No. 84 not moved.]
Clause 24, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 25 [Validity and applicability of advance decisions]:
Baroness Ashton of Upholland Baroness Ashton of Upholland moved Amendment No. 85:
Page 15, line 16, leave out subsection (5) and insert—
(5) An advance decision is not applicable to life-sustaining treatment unless—

(a) the decision is verified by a statement by P to the effect that it is to apply to that treatment even if life is at risk, and

(b) the decision and statement comply with subsection (5A).

(5A) A decision or statement complies with this subsection only if—

(a) it is in writing,

(b) it is signed by P or by another person in P's presence and by P's direction.

1511

(c) the signature is made or acknowledged by P in the presence of a witness, and

(d) the witness signs it, or acknowledges his signature, in P's presence."

[Amendments Nos. 85A to 87, as amendments to Amendment No. 85, not moved.]
On Question, Amendment No. 85 agreed to.
[Amendment No. 88 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.]
[Amendment No. 89 not moved.]
Clause 25, as amended, agreed to.
Baroness Andrews: I beg to move that the House do now resume.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House resumed.

Railways Bill
Brought from the Commons; read a first time, and ordered to be printed.
House adjourned at eight minutes past seven o'clock.

  Northern Ireland Civil Service: Harassment
  Northern Ireland Civil Service: Harassment
  Northern Ireland Civil Service: Public Holidays
  Northern Ireland Civil Service: Public Holidays
  Northern Ireland: Departmental Underspend
  Northern Ireland: Departmental Underspend
  Northern Ireland: PEACE II Funding
  Northern Ireland: PEACE II Funding
  Waterways Ireland
  Waterways Ireland
  North/South Language Body
  North/South Language Body
  PSNI/An Garda Siochana Co-operation
  PSNI/An Garda Siochana Co-operation
  Northern Ireland: Community Development Grants
  Northern Ireland: Community Development Grants
  Northern Ireland Teachers
  Northern Ireland Teachers
  Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission
  Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission
  Northern Ireland: Political Advisers
  Northern Ireland: Political Advisers
  Northern Ireland: Landlords/Tenants
  Northern Ireland: Landlords/Tenants
  Northern Ireland: North Mud Flats
  Northern Ireland: North Mud Flats
  Irish language Broadcast Fund
  Irish language Broadcast Fund
  Arts Council of Northern Ireland
  Arts Council of Northern Ireland
  China: Human Rights
  China: Human Rights
  Algeria and Tunisia: Human Rights
  Algeria and Tunisia: Human Rights
  Royal Navy: Sports Funding
  Royal Navy: Sports Funding
  Armed Forces: Pensions
  Armed Forces: Pensions
  FiReControl Contract
  FiReControl Contract
  Schools: Gun Crime
  Schools: Gun Crime
  Teacher Recruitment
  Teacher Recruitment
  Land-based Colleges
  Land-based Colleges
  Children in Care
  Children in Care
  Inheritance Tax: Estates
  Inheritance Tax: Estates
  Inheritance Tax Rate
  Inheritance Tax Rate
  Fairclough Report
  Fairclough Report
  Alcohol Harm Reduction Strategy: Resources
  Alcohol Harm Reduction Strategy: Resources
  Road Schemes: Cost/Benefit Ratios
  Road Schemes: Cost/Benefit Ratios
  Parking Enforcement: Removal of Vehicle Covers
  Parking Enforcement: Removal of Vehicle Covers
  Road Safety Cameras: Public and Media Awareness
  Road Safety Cameras: Public and Media Awareness
  Dyslexia: Driving Test Arrangements
  Dyslexia: Driving Test Arrangements
  Lorries
  Lorries

  Electoral Candidacy
  The Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs and Lord Chancellor (Lord Falconer of Thoroton)
  The Government intend to legislate, when parliamentary time allows, to lower the age at which a candidate may stand for election from 21 to 18 years-old. Such a change in policy is consistent with the recommendation made by the independent Electoral Commission in its report The Age of Electoral Majority, published in April 2004.

  Criminal Records Bureau Annual Report and Accounts 2003–04
  The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Scotland of Asthal)
  I am pleased to announce that the Criminal Records Bureau Annual Report and Accounts 2003–04 has been published today and copies of the report have been placed in the Library of the House.

  Iraq: Update
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Bach)
  My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Geoffrey Hoon) has made the following Written Ministerial Statement.

  Following the expiry of the Dutch mandate in Iraq and the planned withdrawal of its force of 1,400 personnel from Al Muthanna province in Iraq in March, the United Kingdom has, in its role as framework nation, reviewed with allies how security should continue to be provided in this part of Multinational Division (South East) (MND(SE)).

  We have greatly appreciated the valuable contribution made by the Dutch battle group in Iraq. Dutch forces have made good progress in Al Muthanna, both in ensuring the stability of the province and building the capability of the Iraqi security forces (ISF). This means that a significantly smaller force package is now able to perform these tasks and the general officer commanding (GOC) MND(SE) has concluded that a force of some 600 personnel will be adequate to support and mentor Iraqi security forces in providing general security in Al Muthanna, as well as providing protection for the Japanese reconstruction battalion located there.

  The majority of the personnel required will come from UK units already deployed in Iraq, principally the Queen's Dragoon Guards and the 2nd battalion, the Princess of Wales's Royal Regiment. A small number of additional personnel will also need to be deployed to provide logistics and other essential support to the force in Al Muthanna. This will temporarily increase the total number of UK personnel in Iraq by approximately 220, although this will subsequently fall to approximately
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  150, once the initial deployment to Al Muthanna is completed. Overall, however, the number of UK personnel deployed in Iraq is planned to fall by the end of February as the withdrawal of the Extremely High Readiness Reserve takes place following the Iraqi elections.

  In the meantime, we continue to consult with allies on the best way to meet security tasks in the province.

  Iraq: Khamisiyah
  Lord Bach
  My honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Ivor Caplin) has made the following Written Ministerial Statement.

  I am publishing today the Ministry of Defence paper Review of Modelling of the Demolitions at Khamisiyah in March 1991 and Implications for UK Personnel. The purpose of the paper is to evaluate recent work undertaken by the US Department of Defense (DoD) which modelled the distribution of nerve agents released by US demolitions of Iraqi chemical weapons at the end of the 1990–91 Gulf conflict and to discuss its implications for UK personnel.

  The MoD has assessed the 2002 DoD model carefully and welcomes the improvements incorporated. The model better estimates the size and nature of the possible area of exposure. However, MoD notes that it utilises wide parameters in order to include the maximum number of personnel who could potentially have been exposed to any level of nerve agent. While it is appropriate to include a margin of this kind, MoD believes that the limits used in the model somewhat overstate the potential risk to UK troops. None the less, MoD has used the model for its own analysis and concludes that:

  The model results in a generally smaller geographic exposure area than that described in earlier models.

  As estimated previously, approximately 9,000 UK service personnel may have been within the area of possible exposure, with the closest some 130 km from Khamisiyah.

  The level of nerve agent would have been too low to have any biologically detectable effect on UK troops and would have a minimal impact on health; again this is consistent with previous findings.

  English Partnerships: Chairman
  The Minister of State, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (Lord Rooker)
  My right honourable friend the Minister for Housing and Planning has made the following Written Ministerial Statement.

  I wish to announce that Margaret Ford has been reappointed as chairman of English Partnerships to serve a further three-year term with effect from 1 April 2005. English Partnerships is the national regeneration agency supporting high quality sustainable growth in England.

  Dog and Cat Fur: Imports
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Trade and Industry (Lord Sainsbury of Turville)
  My right honourable friend the Minister for Trade and Investment (Douglas Alexander) has made the following Written Ministerial Statement.

  The Government promised to report back to both Houses 12 months from my predecessor's Statement to the House on 28 January 2004, (Official Report, Commons, col. 11–12WS) on the alleged import of domestic cat and dog fur into the UK.

  The Government understands the ethical abhorrence felt about this issue. Our priority remains to establish the facts about the extent of this alleged trade and to act in a measured way. To this end, we encouraged interested parties to come forward with hard evidence of such fur being on sale in the UK and we undertook work to establish a reliable scientific test to identify between different species of fur.

  In July 2003 the Government invited interested parties to produce hard evidence of a problem in the UK, but to date there is no substantive evidence that such fur is entering the UK in significant and commercial quantities, if at all.

  The Government have been working in parallel to establish a scientific test to make it possible to ascertain reliably what species of animal any given fur sample has come from. Such a test is essential to enable trading standards officers to address allegations of mislabelling arising under the existing Trade Descriptions Act and to help establish whether domestic cat and dog fur is on sale in the UK.

  Last January we reported back on work commissioned on the "mass spectrometry" means of distinguishing the furs of domestic cat and dogs from that of other animal species. Scientific experts at the former Laboratory of the Government Chemist (LGC Limited) concluded that "mass spectrometry" was not yet sufficiently reliable.

  The database of fur samples on which the "mass spectrometry" method relies, together with the search algorithms used in testing were improved in the year since the last tests were commissioned. On the basis of new tests commissioned in autumn 2004, LGC Ltd. has concluded that, from this limited trial, the use of MALDI TOF mass spectrometry to identify domestic dog and cat hair from other species is a viable option, although a question mark remains on identifying fur which has been chemically treated.

  The UK keeps in touch with officials in several countries where the possible trade in domestic cat and dog fur is a concern, including the USA, Australia, France, Belgium and Sweden. We will be sharing our findings from the "mass spectrometry" trials with these governments and with all our European partners.

  The Government's position remains that without hard evidence of such imports at commercial levels to the UK, we will not consider legislation and that any action would be most effective if taken at EU level. The Government continue to welcome input and evidence
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  from interested stakeholders and will continue to share information with other governments, particularly those in Europe.

  Shipman Inquiry: Fifth Report
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord Warner)
  My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Health has made the following Written Ministerial Statement.

  In December, my noble friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Lord Warner) announced that the launch of the General Medical Council's revalidation scheme should not start until doubts raised by Dame Janet Smith had been resolved. He said that it would be unfair to doctors and confusing for patients to start the new revalidation scheme until the question marks raised by Dame Janet on the evidence doctors would be required to submit had been answered.

  His announcement followed the publication of the fifth Shipman Report, Safeguarding Patients: Lessons from the past—Proposals for the Future. In her report, Dame Janet Smith made it clear that she had concerns that the GMC's revised fitness to practise and revalidation procedures would not help to improve patient protection or safety sufficiently.

  I take what Dame Janet has said very seriously. I am determined to respond carefully and robustly to her recommendations to ensure that we develop a very strong patient protection plan. We want to put an end to the idea that the General Medical Council is a representative body for doctors. It is not. Its primary role must be to protect patients.

  In order to ensure that it does this effectively I have asked the Chief Medical Officer for England, Sir Liam Donaldson to undertake a review and report his advice to me on what further measures are necessary to:

  strengthen procedures for assuring the safety of patients in situations where a doctor's performance or conduct pose a risk to patient safety or the effective functioning of services;

  ensure the operation of an effective system of revalidation; and

  reconfigure the role, structure and functions of the General Medical Council.

  I have asked the Chief Medical Officer to report to me later this year. This will minimise any delay to the introduction of measures that will both improve patient safety and ensure that doctors are fit to practise. The Chief Medical Officer will put an emphasis on patient safety. He will draw on the findings and recommendations made by Dame Janet and other inquiries on poor clinical performance and misconduct. An advisory group that includes experts from organisations representing consumer, healthcare quality and professional interests will support him.
  WS 61
  Dame Janet made a number of recommendations not directly covered by the terms of reference of the Chief Medical Officer's review. Our consideration of these recommendations will continue in parallel to the work of the review, focusing particularly on improving measures designed to safeguard patients and improve the quality of the services provided to them.

  The full list of interest groups represented on the CMO's advisory group are:

  Professor Carol Black, President of the Royal College of Physicians

  Professor Sir Graeme Catto, President of the General Medical Council

  Mr James Johnson, Chairman of the British Medical Association

  Professor Sir Ian Kennedy, Chairman of the Healthcare Commission

  Mr Harry Cayton, Director for the Patients and Public

  Dr Sheila Adam, Director of Public Health of the North East London Strategic Health Authority

  Professor Sir Bruce Keogh, President of the Society of Cardiothoracic Surgeons of Great Britain and Ireland

  Professor Angela Coulter, Chief Executive of the Picker Institute

  Ms Janice Barber, Managing Partner at Hempsons Solicitors

  Clara MaKay, Director of Policy and Research at Breast Cancer Care

  Dr Mayur Lakhani, Chairman of Council at the Royal College of General Practitioners

  WS 62

  Mr Michael Morgan, Director of the Change Partnership; former Human Resources Director of Northern Food

  Niall Dickson, Director of the Kings Fund

  Malcolm Dean, Journalist at the Guardian Newspaper

  Mrs Karen Straughair, Chief Executive of Sunderland Teaching Primary Care Trust

  Jenny Simpson, Chief Executive of the British Association of Medical Managers

  Captain Lowe, former Chief Pilot at British Airways

  Ed Mayo, Chief Executive of the National Consumer Council

  Jane Wesson, Chair of the Council for Healthcare Regulatory Excellence

  Shipman Inquiry: The Final Report
  Lord Warner
  My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Health has made the following Written Ministerial Statement.

  Dame Janet Smith, Chairman of the Shipman Inquiry, published her sixth report Shipman: The Final Report today. Copies of the report have been placed in the Library.

  Once again the Government express their profound thanks to Dame Janet Smith and her team for their work throughout the lifetime of the inquiry. We also reiterate our sympathy to all the relatives and friends of Shipman's victims and express our thanks to them for their valuable contribution to the inquiry's work.