Sitting of 5 January 2004

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
Oral Answers to Questions
  CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT
  The Secretary of State was asked—
  CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT

    Pornographic Publications
    Andrew Selous: What her policy is on preventing pornographic publications from being sold to children. [145827]
    The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Tessa Jowell): In answering, I welcome my hon. Friend—I mean the hon. Member for Bromsgrove (Miss Kirkbride), but she may, one never knows, become an hon. Friend—to her new duties on the Opposition Front Bench.
    Children must, of course, be protected from exposure to pornography, and I commend Bedfordshire county council and the hon. Member for South-West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) for their efforts in that area. The magazine industry has established voluntary top-shelf arrangements covering the display and sale of pornographic publications, and those are welcome. In
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    practice, however, there may be difficulties in defining closely what is or is not deemed to be pornographic or obscene under the framework of the Obscene Publications Acts.
    There is a case for exploring what more might practically be done to safeguard children in the light of Bedfordshire county council's experience. I therefore intend to convene a meeting with the Local Government Association and other interested parties, including relevant Departments, to discuss the issue.
    Andrew Selous: I am heartened by the Secretary of State's reply. Bedfordshire's trading standards authority has clearly shown from its under-age surveillance work that children are being sold sexually explicit material, as is no doubt the case elsewhere. Will the Government make a commitment to pursue Bedfordshire's proposal that trading standards authorities be empowered to prosecute traders for selling sexually explicit material to children, just as they prosecute traders who sell them alcohol or cigarettes?
    Tessa Jowell: Having set out the position in my opening answer, I do not want at this stage to commit myself to the outcome of the discussions that we intend to hold. On the basis that we will examine whether the experience in Bedfordshire is a problem that faces local authorities more widely, we will engage in those discussions and produce proposals that are proportionate and practical, and we will, wherever possible, work with the industry.
    Mr. David Drew: Happy new year, Mr. Speaker.
    My right hon. Friend will be aware that the problem is no longer a question only of the sale of these materials to young people; they are freely available on the internet. All right hon. and hon. Members seem to be particularly plagued by them. Can my right hon. Friend assure me that we are looking at how to shut down all

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    manner of spam involving pornographic material on the basis that we should be prosecuting? I look forward to hearing how she intends to take that forward.
    Tessa Jowell: My hon. Friend has a long-standing concern about and interest in this area. He will be aware of the Government's position, which was clearly set out during debates in both Houses on the Communications Act 2003. There are undoubtedly inconsistencies as regards the licensing of videos, the non-licensing of magazines and the unregulated status of the internet. I am committed to achieving the maximum protection for children while taking account of those inconsistencies and the increasing ease with which children are able to secure pornographic material.
    Mr. Gerald Howarth: Does the Minister recognise that one of the most serious problems is not the top shelf but the bottom shelves on which magazines such as More!, published by Emap, are readily on display and on sale to young children? If the Minister would take the trouble to read such magazines, she would find that they concentrate on the mechanics of sex and that they contain little moral content. It is little wonder that our children have no moral leadership in this country when that sort of material is freely available.
    Tessa Jowell: There is an important distinction to be drawn as regards the market for teenage magazines, which I believe provide a very important service, by and large, for many young people. Yes, those magazines provide entertainment, gossip and tittle-tattle, but for many young people—this is to be regretted—they are the principal source of information about sex, development and relationships. By and large, that is a responsibility that the magazines discharge responsibly, through the Periodical Publishers Association and other industry associations. There is all the difference in the world between those magazines and the kind of magazines to which the hon. Member for South-West Bedfordshire referred, which are pornographic and, in some cases, questionably obscene.

    Women's Sport (Funding)
    Dr. Evan Harris: What assessment she has made of the level at which women's sport is funded compared with men's sport. [145828]
    The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Tessa Jowell): Until recently, Sport England has based all its funding decisions on objective assessments of sporting need, without specific regard to gender issues. The Government's cross-departmental activity co-ordination team, the chairmanship of which is shared between my right hon. Friend the Minister for Sport and Tourism and the Under-Secretary with responsibility for public health. my hon. Friend the Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Miss Johnson), will investigate whether that has produced disparities in provision as part of its work on building the evidence base for our developing sports policy. The 20 sports that will receive one-stop planning support from Sport England and UK Sport must have full equity agreements in place. Those
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    agreements include a requirement to meet gender-funding targets that are based on the circumstances of the individual sports.
    Dr. Harris: I am grateful to the Secretary of State for explaining what work is being done. She will recognise that compared with the USA, our position on women's sport is very poor. We have no professional football league for women and snooker's governing body recently withdrew funding for women's snooker. Does she recognise that without better media coverage of women's sport—the skill displayed, not just the outfits and appearance of the participants—we will continue to have difficulty in encouraging girls at school to continue with sport in the way that boys do, in emulation of their role models? Do the Government have any role in providing funding to redress the gender imbalance in the media coverage of sport?
    Tessa Jowell: No, I do not see a role for the Government in providing funding for media coverage. However, I see a case for funding national sports governing bodies and Sport England—as we are doing—to increase participation in sport by young women and girls. All the evidence shows that when measures are introduced to encourage more girls to take part in sports—such as the Nike initiative, which operates through school sports partnerships—they do so. The problem is greater at the grass roots level of sporting activity than at the elite end. We are well aware of the weaknesses in performance in meeting the needs of women in sport, and we intend to do everything that we can to rectify them.
    Mr. Derek Wyatt: Does my right hon. Friend believe that the BBC should have a public service remit to cover women's sport? In the licence fee changes that may be made after 2006, will she ensure that the right of women's sport to equal coverage is printed and published in the BBC's public service remit?
    Tessa Jowell: That is an interesting proposition, and I am sure that my hon. Friend, who is active in such areas, will ensure that the current consultation on the review of the BBC's charter notes that precise point.
    Mr. John Greenway: I welcome the Chancellor's recent acceptance—at long last—of mandatory rate relief for community and amateur sports clubs. As the Secretary of State will know, I long argued for that provision from the Dispatch Box. In view of her reply to the hon. Member for Oxford. West and Abingdon (Dr. Harris), does she agree that community clubs are more likely to persuade girls and young women to take part in sport when schools and colleges are not so successful in doing so?
    Tessa Jowell: Such organisations have an important part to play and measures such as those announced by the Chancellor to improve the financial security of community sports clubs will help. The steps that we are taking to improve links between sport in school and in clubs, through investment in school-club links, will also increase the opportunities for participation for young women.

    British Library
    Linda Perham: What assessment she has made of the recent study by Spectrum Strategy Consultants and Indepen of the value of the work of the British Library. [145829]
    The Minister for the Arts (Estelle Morris): As my hon. Friend knows, that study estimates the value of the British Library's services to the UK economy by asking a sample of users and general public about the value they place on them. It provides positive support for the Government's continuing investment in the British Library.
    Linda Perham: I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. Does she know that the results of the study show a 4:1 benefit-cost ratio? As she mentioned, the study clearly demonstrates the considerable value of the British Library's work to the country. not only in the cultural sphere but in underpinning research and innovation, which are fundamental to the competitiveness and growth of the British economy.
    Estelle Morris: I am happy to agree with my hon. Friend. Indeed, the research confirms what many of us already knew—that the British Library is one of the institutions of which we have every right to be very proud. It contributes to the whole range of British activity. There is an interesting argument about the type of research that brought about those results, but I none the less applaud and recognise the work of the British Library in bringing proof that the money that is invested—taxpayers' money—is actually giving a return. I am happy to congratulate the British Library, to welcome the report and to continue to work with the library in the future.
    Mr. Graham Brady: In assessing the study, will the Minister look again at ways in which assistance could be extended for Braille lending, especially through the work of the National Library for the Blind, and ways in which that might also be offered through the British Library?
    Estelle Morris: I am happy to do that. With regard to the original question, the report was made by the British Library, not by the Government; the library took the decision to fund the research and we are happy to read the report and observe it. We may act on it in the future.
    On the hon. Gentleman's question about the availability of Braille materials, that issue is increasingly important. As a nation, we have become much more aware of what we need to do to support people with disabilities and I shall certainly reflect on that as I reflect on the report from the British Library.

    Licensing Act
    Mr. Patrick McLoughlin: If she will make a statement on the implementation of the Licensing Act 2003. [145830]
    The Minister for Sport and Tourism (Mr. Richard Caborn): I am sure that the hon. Gentleman knows that some of the provisions of the Licensing Act 2003 have
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    already commenced. The timetable for full implementation is largely dependent on the date when Parliament approves a draft of the guidance to be made under section 182 of the Act. We hope to table that draft this month, and if it is cleared either in January or early February we shall be on course for full implementation of the Act by the spring of 2005.
    Mr. McLoughlin: The Minister said in a letter to me last August that he sees the system as a "light touch" one. As he has just acknowledged, the draft guidance has not yet properly been released for the public, yet one can see it on the Department's website where it runs to about 165 pages. It states:
    "This draft, prepared by officials, is being provided to enable stakeholders and officials in Government Departments to consider and comment on the proposed contents."
    If the Government cannot decide what they want to see in the guidance, how can village halls make the plans necessary to ensure that they abide by the regulations that are being brought in by the Government?
    Mr. Caborn: I think that the hon. Gentleman ought to know that that is part of a consultation process, not implementation. I can see that he has the information from the website with him. Anybody can see it; as he rightly said we put it out in August and September for wide consultation. Comments on the consultation have been received and the final draft will, I hope, be before the House before the end of this month. Both Houses of Parliament will then be able to comment on the draft, and if it is cleared by early February the full Act will be implemented by spring 2005. The material is part of the consultation that we said would take place and we have held to our word.
    Mr. Kelvin Hopkins: Will my right hon. Friend monitor carefully the impact of the new licensing law on dangerous levels of alcohol consumption? If in the course of time it appears that dangerous levels of alcohol consumption are increasing, will he look again at further reforms?
    Mr. Caborn: Yes, but it is not just down to the Licensing Act 2003; there is a cross-departmental approach and, I hope, a cross-party approach to the matter. The Prime Minister has set up a unit, led by the Department of Health, to look into the problems of drink. At a political level, my officials are co-operating with the Department of Health and we hope to reduce the level of binge drinking in this country.
    Miss Julie Kirkbride: The right hon. Gentleman has heard concerns about the Licensing Act from both sides of the House, but the principal concern for local authorities is the actual cost of its implementation. The Government have reassured councils about the costs, which include running and inspection costs, but it is primarily the set-up costs that most concern people in local authorities. Some have estimated that set-up costs could be as much as £200,000. In the past, the Government have said that there will be full recovery costs, but that has not assuaged councils such as Maidstone borough council,

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    whose deputy chief executive Trevor Gasson wrote to the Department on 9 December:
    "My concern is the extent to which the Government has totally underestimated the costs involved for local authorities in doing this job properly. Moreover, having brought it to the attention of the Secretary of State, the cavalier manner in which my comments have been treated is most disappointing."
    Will the Minister tell the House whether in fact full recovery costs mean the set-up costs that are of most concern to councils?
    Mr. Caborn: I am disappointed to hear those comments because we met the Local Government Association just before Christmas. The meeting was led by my right hon. Friend the Minister for Local Government, Regional Governance and Fire, who is based in the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister. A range of issues, including licensing, was discussed by people from all parties, as the hon. Lady would accept, and a further meeting with the Department has been requested. The answer to the question is yes—there will be proper cost-reflected pricing. We discussed the set-up costs as well, and we believe that solutions can be found. We will sit down with the LGA—and if the local authority to which the hon. Lady refers approaches a certain party representative on the LGA, I am sure that it will be much better informed than if it approaches the Opposition spokesperson. I say that very genuinely because this is a complex issue. Local authorities and their leaders, including Conservative ones, are in dialogue, and they thanked us for the meeting that took place just before Christmas. That is a lot more than is coming across from the Opposition.
    Miss Kirkbride: It is precisely because local authorities believe that the Government are not listening that they are approaching hon. Members such as myself, to ensure that we are fully aware of their concerns. The Minister must surely be aware that sensitivity about the council tax has now reached crisis point across the country. My own authority in Worcestershire has increased council tax by some 80 per cent. since Labour was elected in 1997. We need to determine whether this is yet another example of Labour Government stealth tax, so would he like to return to the Dispatch Box and promise hon. Members and their constituents that not a penny piece will be added to the council tax as a result of the implementation of the Licensing Act 2003?
    Mr. Caborn: It would be impossible to meet the 410 licensing authorities—[Interruption.]The proposition that has just been put to me is that we meet the 410 licensing authorities to discuss the issue with them individually. There are proper ways to carry out discussions with local authorities, and we are discussing this issue with the body that is responsible for local government and to which all parties subscribe: the Local Government Association. As I have said, I will meet Sir Jeremy Beecham and his officers in the very near future.
    Claire Ward: Further to my right hon. Friend's reply, may I impress on him the need for certainty in respect of the timetable for implementing the regulations? I have received representations from my local authority, which is in the process of setting its
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    council budgets and wishes to be certain about any impact that may result from this legislation. It therefore needs to be sure about the timing of those implications on the budget.
    Mr. Caborn: That timetable is laid down very clearly in the Act. As I have said, as soon as both Houses approve the regulations, that kicks off the timetable, which will be six months. The first appointed day will be in July this year and the implementation period will end six months after that in the spring of 2005. The timetable is very clear. Local authorities have some concerns, but if they refer to the Act they will see that the timetable for implementation kicks in as soon as both Houses have agreed to the regulations. That is very clear.
    Mr. Don Foster: I suspect that the House will be surprised by the Minister's complacency about the timetable for implementing the Act. He has just told the House that he expects the first named day to be in June or July, so how does he expect the industry and local authorities to prepare in time for that date when, as we have heard, the guidance has not yet been published or approved, when the secondary legislation has not yet been agreed, when no agreement on the fee structure has been reached with local authorities, when we have not seen the draft forms that will be provided to local authorities for the operational plans, when we have not agreed on the set-up fees and, above all, when the Department has agreed that it will drive forward the plans for a central database but has not yet started to do so?
    Mr. Caborn: I go back to the original question, which concerned the consultation on the regulations that has been under way since August or September, involving dialogue not just with the local authorities but with all those who will be affected by the Act, and we shall come back to the House with their comments. The timetable is clear in the Act and it has been debated ad nauseam in Committee. Rather than the picture painted by the hon. Gentleman, the reality, according to the Local Government Association, is that many local authorities are already preparing to implement the Act. They are obviously far ahead of many hon. Members who represent them.
    Mr. Peter Pike: Does my right hon. Friend agree that when the new Act is fully implemented licensees will have great responsibility in the running of their premises to ensure that no problems are caused for local residents? Does he further agree that one problem at the moment in many town centres is caused by pubs allowing people to walk out with glasses and beer bottles, who then deposit them here, there and everywhere? If licensees allow that to happen, they may well be frowned upon when it comes to the operation of the new hours.
    Mr. Caborn: When the new Act comes into operation, the powers of local residents will be much increased. They will be able to be a statutory objector, and the licensing authority—the local authority—will have to take that on board. A number of sanctions can be taken against somebody who is not fulfilling the requirements of the Act, even to the removal of the licence. The residents and local people have more powers now than they had before.

    Unclaimed Lottery Prizes
    Sir Teddy Taylor: What the total of unclaimed lottery prizes is; and what the largest single unclaimed prize is. [145831]
    The Minister for the Arts (Estelle Morris): Total unclaimed prizes up to the week ending 13 December 2003 were £597.2 million. The largest unclaimed prize to date is £3,011,065.
    Sir Teddy Taylor: As the amount is substantial, has the Minister made any inquiries as to why so many people take the trouble to buy lottery tickets but not to claim the prizes, which, as she says, now amount to over £590 million? What happens to the money? Does it go to the lottery company or to worthwhile charities?
    Estelle Morris: I am not sure that I can say why so many people do not claim their prizes, especially the one that was over £3 million. I am surprised. The hon. Gentleman asked the same question last year, and he will note that the amount of money unclaimed has increased. It goes up by 13 or 14 per cent. each year; it is a cumulative figure. Three of the four largest unclaimed prizes have been in the last two years, so the figure is now quite staggering. When the hon. Gentleman raised the question last year, my right hon. Friend the Minister for Sport and Tourism undertook to speak to Camelot, the organisation operating the lottery, about it and he did. Adverts are now put out shortly before the end of the period in which claims have to be made to try to get people to claim awards if they have not already done so, but the increase remains about the same. However, I reassure the hon. Gentleman and the House that the money goes to the Secretary of State and through her to the fund that is paid out for good causes, so Camelot stands to gain not a penny from anyone who does not claim their prize, but good causes stand to gain a lot.
    Mr. Lindsay Hoyle: Obviously, a huge amount of money is unclaimed, but rather than becoming embroiled in bureaucracy in deciding who to give it to, would not it be better if all unclaimed prizes went to the hospice movement, and then all communities would benefit?
    Estelle Morris: I am sure that the hospice movement can apply for lottery funds in the same way as others can, but to set up a complicated procedure whereby there is another fund of money to which all will have access—one cannot simply give it to the hospice movement, because many other organisations would consider that they, too, had an equal claim to it—would result in the very bureaucracy against which my hon. Friend has just warned. We have an existing structure in the form of the fund for good causes, and it is right and proper that the unclaimed money should go there, but I do wish that the amount were lower. The notion of people not claiming the prize money does not sit well with encouraging more people to buy lottery tickets, which is what we are meant to be doing to get more money into the good causes kitty.

    Horse Racing
    Mr. Bill Tynan: What discussions she has had with the Scottish Executive regarding the future of horse racing in (a) the United Kingdom and (b) Scotland. [145833]
    The Minister for Sport and Tourism (Mr. Richard Caborn): We have not had any discussions with the Scottish Executive on horse racing arrangements.
    Mr. Tynan: I thank the Minister for his comprehensive response. It would have been appropriate to have some discussions, because there is concern—[Interruption.] It has been suggested that I declare an interest because of the amount of money that I give to the impoverished bookmakers of Hamilton, South over the year. However, on a serious note, would the Minister take time from his busy schedule to visit the town of Hamilton and meet the representatives of the five race courses in Scotland, who are concerned about the proposals emanating from the Office of Fair Trading? If he could give assurances about such a visit, race course executives would be delighted.
    Mr. Caborn: I would love to visit Scotland at some point in the future. As for the OFT, my hon. Friend is right that there are concerns about the uncertainty caused by its involvement, which are reflected in a letter from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to the chairman of the OFT, saying clearly that we want to make sure that there are comprehensive arrangements for racing across the country. We accept, however, that there must be compliance with competition law. I hope that all the parties get together because racing has a fantastic future and is on a growth path. More people now go to the races than before, and there is greater interest in horse racing. If the two parties can come together and submit their case to the OFT—I think that that is possible—my hon. Friend's fears will be allayed and horse racing will grow. It is a great sport, and is followed by all classes of people up and down the land.
    Mr. Laurence Robertson: The Minister put his finger on the problem facing racing, not only in Scotland but throughout the United Kingdom—the OFT's investigation into the control of horse racing. He and the Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, the hon. Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Sutcliffe), who has ministerial responsibility for competition, have expressed a great deal of concern about what is likely to be proposed. The Minister said that racing has been doing rather well recently, so will he redouble his efforts to convince the OFT that the last thing that it needs at the moment is for the baby to be thrown out with the bath water? The racing industry is improving and making plans for the future. The last thing that it needs is a heavy-handed report from the OFT.
    Mr. Caborn: Many will appreciate the hon. Gentleman's words. However, I repeat that if people in racing can come together—and I believe that they can—to reach a solution to the process introduced by the OFT's rule 14, the fears that he and my hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton, South (Mr. Tynan) expressed

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    can be allayed. It is very much in the hands of racing, not the OFT. However, I believe that the OFT will try to find a solution that complies with what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State asked it to do, and ensure that a full and diverse national programme of racing is the end result.
    John Robertson: I heard what my right hon. Friend said, but does he accept that thousands of jobs are at risk and small race courses throughout the country could close if the OFT's suggestions are implemented? Will he use his offices to ensure that those small race courses are looked after, and the OFT's proposals do not result in the loss of thousands of jobs?
    Mr. Caborn: I can only repeat what I have already said. The statistics for the past few years on horse racing show that there is no reason for race courses to close. If anything, there is growth in the marketplace—there is no doubt that the statistics show that. If people in racing come together and make a submission to the OFT, a solution can be found. Some may disagree, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Rule 14 has been introduced, and there must be a response. We believe that there is a way out—if people in the industry and the sport come together, they can find a solution to the problem.
    Pete Wishart: When the Minister eventually gets around to having discussions with Scottish Ministers, will he discuss the impact of the OFT report on national hunt racing? Perth race course is situated in my constituency. It is a great example of a small but successful national racecourse. Will he give a reassurance that national hunt racing will survive what is suggested in the report?
    Mr. James Gray: And support hunting.
    Mr. Caborn: The latter comment is not the answer. If the Scottish Executive asks for discussions with my Department, we will be more than willing to have those discussions. In the light of what has been said, that is a high possibility because of some of the concerns that exist. None the less, I reiterate that, to a large extent, a solution lies in the industry and the sport themselves.

    Crystal Palace Sports Centre
    Mrs. Jacqui Lait: What discussions she has had on the future of Crystal Palace sports centre. [145834]
    The Minister for Sport and Tourism (Mr. Richard Caborn): Owing to the constituency interest of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State in respect of Crystal Palace, I am dealing with this question.
    I discuss Crystal Palace with the chairman and chief executive of Sport England on a regular basis. On 26 November, I also attended a meeting with the Mayor of London, the chairman of Sport England and representatives from the London borough of Bromley to discuss the matter.
    Mrs. Lait: I am grateful to the Minister for that reply, and I understand the Secretary of State's difficulties with
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    this issue, which I am sure he will realise is directly a constituency interest of mine. He will be aware that, on 18 December, his colleague Lord McIntosh stated:
    "It is likely that the closure of the centre for redevelopment under the discussions that are currently taking place will form a part of any agreed solution."—[Official Report, House of Lords, 18 December 2003; Vol. 655, c.181W.]
    I have recently received a copy of a letter from Colin Kirkwood, a former president of Beckenham swimming club, to the Mayor of London. The letter argues that the pool at Crystal Palace should not be shut before any new facilities are in place. I urge the Minister to give me some assurances about that, because the centre is crucial for high-performance athletes and the nearest Olympic-size pool is situated in Dunkirk.
    Mr. Caborn: The hon. Lady raises a number of questions. First, there is an agreement that Sport England will withdraw from the deal on 31 March 2004. Bromley has known about that agreement for a considerable period, and that is what we are working towards. We would want to keep the facilities in operation, and we believe that the proposition made by the Mayor of London to take over their running, which is part of the discussions and negotiations that are currently going on—I hope that they will be successful—will see their continuation. Although there may be redevelopment in terms of the track, we hope that that can be decoupled from the sports facilities so that we can continue to run the athletics grand prix this year.
    I say to the hon. Lady that, unless that is done by the end of January, it will be very difficult to run grands prix here. My Department is working hard with the Mayor and other Departments to try to achieve that objective. I want the track to continue and I would like to see a new facility. Community usage is now at more than 80 per cent. Sport England is there not to run facilities, but to take a strategic overview for sport. The running of facilities is for local authorities, the private sector or joint ventures.
    Mr. Nick Hawkins: Does the Minister recognise that the work that he is seeking to do to try to broker a deal, if I can put it that way, to keep Crystal Palace open is crucial in terms of the prospects for our Olympic bid? Not only do many potential future Olympians use Crystal Palace as their training base, as my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Mrs. Lait) said, but most unfortunate signals would be sent if Crystal Palace were seen to close. I know that he cares about the prospect of the Olympic bid as much as me, and, I am sure, hon. Members in all parts of the House, but will he recognise that, as part of the Government's job of leadership, it is vital that we do not see chains and padlocks on Crystal Palace at the end of March?
    Mr. Caborn: We are working very hard to ensure that those padlocks do not appear. As part of the wider Olympic bid, we are considering proposals for an aquatic centre that I hope will provide the type of 50 m pool facilities to which he is referring. Indeed, that is being discussed not only at a community level in the sport, but with the governing body, the swimming association. That process will continue to ensure coverage throughout the country in terms of such facilities. On Crystal Palace, we will continue to try to

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    ensure that a deal is done, and we will try to ensure that the athletics grand prix also takes place. That three-way deal will have to be done. I understand from Sport England that we have continued to support the facilities in Bromley way beyond any other facilities for community use. A decision should be made by the end of March.

    British Sign Language
    Mr. Jim Cunningham: What recent discussions her Department has had with the Department for Education and Skills on ways to increase the use of British sign language on television. [145835]
    The Minister for the Arts (Estelle Morris): My Department is an active member of the British sign language working group, which was established by the Department for Work and Pensions. The Communications Act 2003 extends, for the first time, the signing target on digital terrestrial television to digital cable and satellite broadcasters. That target is that 5 per cent. of all non-excluded programmes should be translated into sign language.
    Mr. Cunningham: I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer, but may I ask her, first, whether she has a time scale for expanding those sign language programmes; and secondly. whether she is prepared to provide incentives to encourage more of them?
    Estelle Morris: There is indeed a time scale—that the target should be reached by the 10th anniversary of the start of the service. That differs depending on the broadcaster concerned. For the BBC it is 2008; for some of the others it is 2010. I am not about to announce any incentives to ensure that it is reached, but it will be closely monitored through Ofcom. My hon. Friend may want to know that towards the end of last month, Ofcom published its code for people with sensory impairment, in which it set out its plans for ensuring that the target was reached and how it intends to monitor and enforce it. I very much hope that we can make progress on this important issue.
    Mr. Tim Boswell: Of course, we welcome the recent official recognition of British sign language, as we do any practical action that is taken by Government or broadcasters to improve their services to people with disabilities; but given that although the broadcasting code has been extended. the figures in it have not been increased, can the Minister tell us when there will be any material sign of improvement in coverage of signing for hearing-impaired people? For that matter, when does she hope to resolve the related issue of the current technical and/or commercial impasse in extending audio description for blind service users?
    Estelle Morris: The hon. Gentleman raises some interesting points. When I looked at the targets I was amazed that the target for sign language was much lower than those for other measures to help people with sensory impairment. One of the problems is that there is not a closed system, so that when programmes are signed everybody accesses the sign language as well as
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    watching the full screen. It is hoped that in the near future, people who want signing will be able to turn it on, while those who do not want it will not need to have it. I suspect that when that technology is available there will be much faster progress towards the target. I do not set much store by the fact that the target was met, given that it was only 2 or 3 per cent.—it has now been increased by 5 per cent. More important is the ongoing technological work to create a closed system.
    On the hon. Gentleman's second point, I am told that work is progress. We hope that there will soon be a workable mechanism to make access to television for people with sensory impairments more probable. From now on, progress should be much quicker.

    Business Tourism (Yorkshire)
    Hugh Bayley: What plans she has to support the business tourism and conference trade in Yorkshire. [145836]
    The Minister for Sport and Tourism (Mr. Richard Caborn): VisitBritain promotes business tourism to Britain as a whole, working closely with the Business Tourism Partnership and a range of other partners, including the Yorkshire tourist board and city destinations such as York, Sheffield—my own town—and Leeds: for example, in relation to international conferences. It is interesting that those three cities have formed the White Rose university research group, partly to exploit the area of business tourism.
    Hugh Bayley: Is my right hon. Friend aware that last year York had its best ever year for business tourism, with a 20 per cent. increase in bookings? That reflects the investment in new conference facilities that has been made by York racecourse, the university, hotels and the National Railway Museum, which won Business Britain's award for unique conferencing venue of the year for 2003–04. When will Yorkshire Forward complete its review of business tourism, and what will it do to promote further investment in business tourism in my constituency and elsewhere in the region?
    Mr. Caborn: As I understand it, Yorkshire Forward has completed that consultation and will report back in the next few months. There will be further discussions on implementation. I welcome the fact that the regional development agencies are putting their new remit, tourism, right at the heart of the regional economic agenda. That is another example of added economic value, bringing together universities, local authorities and the development agency. That is to be welcomed.

  The hon. Member for Middlesbrough, representing the Church Commissioners, was asked—
  CHURCH COMMISSIONERS

    Ecclesiastical Insurance
    Mr. Gordon Prentice: How much was paid to insure ecclesiastical buildings from (a) fire and (b) other damage in the latest year for which figures are available. [145847]
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs (Mr. David Lammy): I have been asked to reply, in the absence of the Second Church Estates Commissioner.
    The information is not collected on a regular basis. In 1998, according to a one-off statistical exercise, parishes' expenditure on insuring their churches' income was £21 million.
    Mr. Prentice: A year ago, almost to the day, a crazed axeman with an axe in each hand caused £;200,000 worth of damage in Waltham abbey, knocking the heads off statues and damaging a 14th century stained glass window. That was the worst example of damage last year, but no fewer than one in seven Church of England churches was vandalised last year, and it falls to the parishes, as my hon. Friend will know, to bear the cost of insuring the church. Would it not be fairer for the Church of England to—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. A brief question is the best way to conduct hon. Members' affairs. I think the Minister could answer that.
    Mr. Lammy: The matter to which my hon. Friend the Member for Pendle (Mr. Prentice) refers is a matter for the Archbishops Council, not the Church Commissioners. The council, through the Council for the Care of Churches, published a leaflet on church security and insurance, entitled "Safe and Sound". I am happy to pass on my hon. Friend's concerns to the Second Church Estates Commissioner, through the Archbishops Council.
    Sir Sydney Chapman: Can the Minister tell the House whether the Church insures its buildings against acts of God? [Laughter.] If it does, does that not show a certain lack of faith, and if it does not, does that not show a lack of acumen?
    Mr. Lammy: That is not a matter that would properly concern the Second Church Estates Commissioner.

    Clergy (Employed Status)
    Mr. Lindsay Hoyle: What representations the Church Commissioners have made to the Department of Trade and Industry in relation to employed status for members of the clergy under the Employment Relations Act 1999. [145848]
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs (Mr. David Lammy): The Church Commissioners have not made representations to the DTI. In 2002 the Archbishops Council responded to the DTI's discussion document on employment status in relation to statutory employment rights, and set up a group to review clergy terms of service. Its first report wass considered by the council on 9 December 2002 and will be debated by the General Synod in February.
    Mr. Hoyle: Is my hon. Friend aware that Amicus conducted a survey of the clergy and found that 36 per cent. felt that their employment rights were being
    16
    eroded? Rather than those rights being eroded, they ought to be seen to be improved. What can my hon. Friend do in that regard?
    Mr. Lammy: I am aware of that, as I am a member of Amicus. He will know that a number of clergy are members of the trade union. They will no doubt want to make their voice heard in the General Synod discussion later this year.
    Mr. John Bercow: It is a matter of great regret that the Second Church Estates Commissioner is unable to be with us this afternoon, but I hope that the hon. Gentleman will convey to him my congratulations on his well-deserved knighthood—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!] I speak for other right hon. and hon. Members as well, it seems. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that members of the clergy should have employment rights equivalent to those of all other employees?
    Mr. Lammy: The hon. Gentleman's question cuts to the heart of the issue. The distinction involved is whether a member of the clergy is an office holder—the view that the Church has maintained for some time—or has the traditional role of an employee. That is the subject of the DTI document, and it cuts to the heart of the debate that the General Synod will quite properly have later this year. I am sure that many views will be expressed in the House on where that particular buck should fall.
    Mr. Ben Chapman: This subject has been debated in the House for at least six years, to my knowledge. The McClean committee was set up more than a year ago, and I am delighted that its report has now gone to the Archbishops Council, but the matter now faces the necessary discussion in Synod and a consultation with the clergy, which will take some time. May I urge more haste and more speed?
    Mr. Lammy: I know that no one has campaigned on this issue in the House more than my hon. Friend. There has been some progress, and the Archbishops Council made the decision about three weeks ago to debate the matter. This is a very complex issue which goes to the heart of what it means to be a parish priest.

  ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE
  The hon. Member for Gosport, representing the Speaker's Committee on the Electoral Commission, was asked—
  ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE

    Voting Age
    Bob Spink: What representations the commission has received regarding reduction of the age for voting. [145849]
    Mr. Peter Viggers: May I join in the congratulations to my friend and pair, the Second Church Estates Commissioner, the hon. Member for

    17
    Middlesbrough (Sir Stuart Bell), on the honour of a knighthood that has been conferred on him for his long and loyal service to the House and to the nation?
    The Electoral Commission is conducting a formal review of the minimum age for voting and expects to publish its report before Easter. The commission has conducted an extensive public consultation exercise in connection with the review, and has received a wide range of views, which it will take into account when formulating its conclusions and recommendations.
    Bob Spink: I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. He will know that opinion is mixed on this issue, even among youngsters themselves. Will he please urge the commission to be brave and innovative in its response to this consultation, and to give a message to young people that we are prepared to trust them and to listen to them, even at 16? There are many good young people, and even though turnout might be low in that age group, I believe that they should be offered the opportunity to share in our democracy.
    Mr. Viggers: I thank my hon. Friend for that question. The Electoral Commission is well aware of the activities of the Votes at Sixteen campaign and others who have been campaigning for the vote to be extended to this younger age group. I am sure that the commission's forthcoming report will include an assessment of the level of support expressed in relation to the recommendations that it makes. Any change in the minimum voting age would, of course, require primary legislation.
    Mr. Bill O'Brien: If young people were consulted on the highly controversial decision by the Electoral Commission on the ward boundary review of metropolitan authorities—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The question is about the age for voting. It has nothing to do with boundary reviews. I call Dr. Starkey.
    Dr. Phyllis Starkey: I should like to ask the hon. Gentleman whether the Electoral Commission is aware of the Nestlé family monitor study of young people's attitudes towards politics, which clearly showed that 53 per cent. of young people aged between 11 and 18 supported the reduction of the voting age to 16 or even lower. Will the hon. Gentleman ensure that the commission takes note of this extensive survey?
    Mr. Viggers: Yes. A completely separate point is that the Electoral Commission has been keen to identify initiatives that would assist in reconnecting young people with politics, in line with its statutory duty to promote public awareness of democratic institutions. This is a separate point from that of the reduction of the voting age.
    Matthew Green: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is aware that the Liberal Democrats strongly support the reduction of the voting age to 16.
    18
    Will he tell the House whether the Electoral Commission received any representations from the Labour party during the consultation period and, if so, whether they were received before or after the Prime Minister changed his position from opposition to agnosticism on this issue?
    Mr. Viggers: Yes, I think I recall that the Liberal Democrats were indeed active in encouraging people to fill in forms relating to the Votes at Sixteen campaign. I also think I am right in saying that they were successful in encouraging 23 people to write to the Electoral Commission.

  The hon. Member for Middlesbrough, representing the Church Commissioners, was asked—
  CHURCH COMMISSIONERS

    English Cathedrals
    Mr. Peter Luff: What assessment he has made of the financial situation of English cathedrals. [145850]
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs (Mr. David Lammy): The Church Commissioners have made no such assessment. Their role in cathedral funding is limited to the payment of some clergy stipends and the provision of grants for staff and administrative costs.
    Mr. Luff: I declare an interest as chairman of Worcester cathedral council. [HON. MEMBERS: "Ah!"] That is a non-remunerated post, I hasten to add. Does the Minister not agree that the triple responsibility of maintaining a living heritage of music and liturgy in cathedrals, maintaining the built heritage, which is rightly subject to strong statutory protection, and, of course, offering witness to the Christian faith is proving an intolerable burden for many cathedrals?
    A crisis is looming in cathedral funding. Cathedrals such as Worcester are taking steps to address that by seeking endowments for their music in particular, but is not there a need for the Church Commissioners to lead a national debate—involving, for example, the Minister's colleagues at the Treasury and the Department for Culture, Media and Sport—before that crisis reaches a dreadful fruition?
    Mr. Lammy: I too should declare an interest as a former cathedral chorister at Peterborough, but I should also say that although the Church Commissioners provide some assistance to cathedrals—last year they gave £6 million—they must obviously pay attention to the core of their business and their obligations through legal trusts to parishes. I understand from the Archbishops Council that Worcester cathedral has been offered £99,000 in an English Heritage grant for 2004–05 for the repair of its chapterhouse roof, but I am of course happy to draw

    19
    what the hon. Gentleman said to the attention of the Archbishops Council and the Second Church Estates Commissioner.
    Jane Griffiths: My hon. Friend the Minister will know the history of the appointment of the next Bishop of Reading. Will he comment, however, on a Sunday newspaper report, which is expanded on in today's Reading Evening Post, to the effect that the next Bishop of Reading is to be your chaplain, Mr. Speaker, who is held in very high respect in the House?
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Lady is out of order.
    Mr. John Gummer: I wonder whether the Church Commissioners should not take this opportunity to look carefully at what is happening in other countries, which will show that most other European countries are very much more generous towards their great ecclesiastical edifices—even states that are professedly agnostic, such as France. Would it not be good for the Church Commissioners to get a bit tougher with this Government, and indeed all Governments, to ensure that the state helps to keep up these great buildings with a great deal more generosity?
    Mr. Lammy: There has been considerable progress since 1990, when the Church conducted a substantial review of work needed on its cathedrals. Many of those cathedrals have been substantially repaired since then. As is proper and right, the Church Commissioners make a contribution, but it is right also that the lion's share of that contribution goes to parishes. This is an important issue for the Church, and indeed for the heritage of this country, which is why English Heritage also makes a substantial contribution to the life of our cathedrals and their general fabric.

    Church Repairs (VAT)
    Miss Anne McIntosh: If he will make a statement on recent progress towards reducing VAT on church repairs. [145852]
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs (Mr. David Lammy): The Church of England VAT group and other faith groups were delighted to see in the recent pre-Budget report that the listed places of worship grant scheme has been approved to run for a further period up to the end of March 2006. The current EU Commission proposals in respect of the wider VAT review have been rejected by the European Council of Finance Ministers, bringing about a temporary halt, but it is hoped that the Commission will revise its proposals.
    Miss McIntosh: I thank the Minister for that reply. Will he convey my warmest congratulations to the Second Church Estates Commissioner, the hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Sir Stuart Bell), on his well deserved knighthood?
    Will the Minister join me and the Second Church Estates Commissioner in making representations on reducing VAT on church repairs and also on the preservation of burial sites such as the Thornborough henges, which have enormous religious and archeological value and which could be thrown away for ever because of a quarrying application?
    Mr. Lammy: I know that the hon. Lady's is one of the strongest voices in Parliament on this issue. The campaign continues, a number of MEPs convey their wish to continue to lobby in Europe, there is a letter-writing campaign by the Church, and the Second Church Estates Commissioner and I will use our best endeavours to keep up the pressure on this important issue.

Libya
3.30 pm
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Jack Straw): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a statement about Libya.
As the House will be aware, the announcements about Libya's weapons programmes occurred on 19 December, a day after the House had adjourned for the Christmas recess. I therefore felt that the House would like an early opportunity to hear a report from me and to discuss those developments.
Libya is a signatory to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and to the biological weapons convention. We have long been concerned, however, about Libya's proliferation activities, which potentially could have posed a threat to the region, and might put Libya in breach of those international obligations. Furthermore, there have been profound concerns about two Libyan acts of terrorism in the 1980s: the Pan Am flight destroyed over Lockerbie in December 1988, and the murder of Woman Police Constable Yvonne Fletcher in April 1984.
For several years, we have been engaged in discussion with the Libyan authorities to resolve those two issues. The discussions led to the trial—under Scots law, but in The Hague—of Libyan citizens accused of offences in connection with the Lockerbie outrage and, much more recently, to Libya agreeing to pay compensation to the families of those killed at Lockerbie, and to the Libyans accepting full responsibility for the actions of their officials. In consequence, United Nations Security Council sanctions were lifted under Security Council resolution 1506 on 12 September last year. The Libyans have also paid compensation to the family of WPC Fletcher, although we continue our efforts to pursue her murderers.
An important aspect of the Lockerbie discussions was Libya's categorical renunciation of terrorism and its pledge to co-operate in the international fight against terrorism. My predecessor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook), restored diplomatic relations in 1999. In 2002, the Minister for Trade and Investment, my hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. O'Brien), who was then an Under-Secretary in the Foreign Office, visited Libya and held fruitful discussions with Colonel Gadafi. Last year, we concluded a cultural and transport agreement with Libya. More recently, Libya repaid on 30 December—just a week ago—£20 million of debt that it had owed to our Export Credits Guarantee Department.
This process of engagement provided the backdrop for the discussions on Libya's weapons programme, which began with an approach to us by Libya in March last year. At Libyan request, these discussions took place in the strictest secrecy. Nine months of work by officials and experts from the United States and the United Kingdom then followed. Libya acknowledged to us that it was developing a nuclear fuel cycle intended to support nuclear weapons development. A team of British and American officials were given access to projects at more than 10 sites. Those projects included uranium enrichment. Libya had not yet developed a nuclear weapon, but it was on the way to doing so. Libya provided to us evidence of activity in the chemical
22
weapons field, including significant quantities of chemical agent and bombs designed to be filled with chemical agent. The team of British and American specialists was given access to scientists at research centres with dual-use potential to support biological weapons-related work. Libya has provided access to facilities where missile research and development work has been conducted.
As a result of these discussions, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, United States President Bush and the Libyan Foreign Minister, Abdulrahman Shalgam, on behalf of Colonel Gadafi, made parallel public statements on 19 December. I am placing Foreign Minister Shalgam's statement in the Library of the House. In the Libyan statement, Colonel Gadafi committed his country
"of its own free will…to eliminate these materials, equipment and programmes",
thus ridding itself of all internationally banned weapons. Our own Prime Minister, in his statement, paid tribute to Colonel Gadafi for making this courageous decision.
I have invited Foreign Minister Shalgam to visit London soon to discuss a range of bilateral and international issues. That will form part of the process of implementing Libya's decision to dismantle its weapons programmes. Britain and the United States will now make progress with the practical issues of verification and of the dismantling of the weapons, in partnership with Libya and with the International Atomic Energy Agency and the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons. We have committed ourselves to helping with the preparation of Libya's return to those two international organisations, and to helping to dismantle the programmes that Libya has agreed to destroy. Responsibility for verifying Libya's declarations lies with the IAEA and OPCW, within their respective remits, and it is for the Libyan authorities to inform those organisations about the details of their programmes.
I have kept in close touch with Dr. Mohammed El Baradei, director-general of the IAEA, and I spoke to him again this morning. He took a team to Libya last week and visited a number of sites there. A report will be presented to the next meeting of the IAEA board of governors in March.
This agreement represents a successful outcome for the engagement by the United States and the United Kingdom with Libya over a long period. We have, I believe, established a relationship of trust, which has enabled Libya first to renounce terrorism and now to renounce the pursuit of weapons of mass destruction. I applaud the remarks of Foreign Minister Shalgam, who has said:
"Libya's belief is that an arms race does not serve its security nor the security of the region, but conflicts with Libya's overarching goal of a world where security and peace hold sway."
For our part, we have recognised that we now have corresponding responsibilities to enable Libya to come fully into the mainstream of the international community.
The proliferation of weapons of mass destruction represents one of the most serious threats to national and international security. Tackling that threat is at the

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heart of the Government's efforts to create a more peaceful and more prosperous world. In parallel with the discussions with Libya, much work has continued with Iran following its agreement in principle with the IAEA board of governors and the Foreign Ministers of Germany and France and myself. Iran has now signed an additional protocol allowing intrusive inspections under the IAEA's regime, as agreed with the three Foreign Ministers—including me—on 20 October.
It is always, and obviously, better to resolve issues through negotiation and agreement when that is possible, but for that to happen it is necessary to have a partner with whom to negotiate. Over the last five years, we have built a relationship with Libya, through active diplomacy, which has enabled us together to take an important step towards reducing the threat of weapons of mass destruction and enhancing international peace and security.
Mr. Michael Ancram: I thank the Foreign Secretary both for his statement and for allowing me to see it in advance.
Conservative Members welcome the statement of 19 December that Libya would transparently and verifiably complete elimination of its weapons of mass destruction, restrict its missile programme range to 300 km and adhere to the chemical weapons convention. That is hopeful news, and if those commitments are in due course fulfilled it will be good news. May I, through the Foreign Secretary, congratulate the skilful British public servants who, along with their American colleagues, have painstakingly—over many months—brought the Libyans to the current promising position?
It is significant that this progress has been made not through a United Nations resolution or through formal European Union initiatives, but through the firmness of purpose and deft diplomacy of the United Kingdom and the United States. I must ask the Foreign Secretary whether there are other states with extant WMD programmes where the UK and the US are undertaking similar initiatives—for instance, Syria or North Korea.
Can the Foreign Secretary be more specific about the extent and nature of the WMD programmes in Libya that are covered by the agreement? How advanced were the programmes that are now being investigated? Have experts either seen or uncovered in Libya "massive evidence" of programmes and facilities for the production of WMD of the sort claimed in relation to Iraq by the Prime Minister on 16 December?
There have been recent reports that Libya purchased a significant part of its nuclear know-how and materials from Pakistan. Has the Foreign Secretary had discussions with the Government of Pakistan as to whether those reports are true and, if so, what was the nature and extent of such transaction?
I welcome the progress confirmed by the Foreign Secretary today, but is it not wise to exercise a healthy degree of caution when dealing with Colonel Gadafi? Should not the complete lifting of all sanctions wait for the actual dismantling of the weapons of mass destruction concerned? Should not other unfinished business be completed, such as the naming and handing over of WPC Yvonne Fletcher's cold-blooded killer, before the hand of friendship is fully extended?
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Was it really wise for the Prime Minister to describe as "courageous" a past provider of weapons to the Provisional IRA for use against our people, or for the Foreign Secretary to describe one of the leading backers of Mugabe and his vile regime in Zimbabwe as a "statesman"? We know that spin is endemic for this Government, but those claims are just foolish.
The Foreign Secretary went on to say that Gadafi
"is almost in from the cold".
Has he not almost come in from the cold before, such as in 1982 when he promised President Mitterrand of France that he would stop funding the IRA, only two years later to double his support; or in 1986, when he pledged, and I use his words, his "Arab honour" to President Mubarek of Egypt that he would stop all anti-American terrorist activity, just two years before Pan Am 103 was blown out of the skies above Lockerbie? Does the Foreign Secretary really believe, with all the evidence of irrationality, dishonesty and totalitarianism, that on this occasion Gadafi can genuinely be trusted? If so, can he tell the House what has changed?
The pudding being served up today shows promise, but the proof of it should be not in the recipe, nor even in the cooking, but in the eating—and it is a pudding that should be eaten with a very long spoon.
Mr. Straw: First, I thank the right hon. and learned Gentleman for his congratulations to people whom he described as "skilful" public servants. Indeed, they are and they were, and they worked very co-operatively with their counterparts in the United States.
I understand that, given Libya's history, there may be a degree of scepticism about the arrangements that we have made with Libya, but the Prime Minister used the word "courageous" and I used a similar word, "statesmanlike", in the statements on 19 and 20 December as a result of the best judgments that we could make following long experience, working in the strictest secrecy with the Libyans over many months, going back to a period of conduct from the late 1990s, when my predecessor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook), made arrangements for the trials of the Libyan suspects to be held in The Hague and then for the restoration of diplomatic relations with that country.
Of course, everyone on each side is bound to be cautious—that applies also to the Libyans—but I do not think the right hon. and learned Gentleman would be right to be too cavilling about what has been achieved. It is a very significant development. Moreover, the reassurance lies in the extent to which Libya has accepted very intrusive inspections by the IAEA and the OPCW and, outside their remits, by the United States, the United Kingdom and, in appropriate circumstances, by the P5 of the Security Council.
The right hon. and learned Gentleman asked about matters relating to other states. Work in relation to North Korea is well known and publicised, and on the record. He will forgive me for not going into detail about other states that we suspect may have illegal weapons programmes. The same caution applies in respect of

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suggestions in the newspapers about countries that allegedly acted as suppliers to the Libyans. These matters are themselves the subject of verification procedures, which will be led by the IAEA and the OPCW, within their remits.
Mr. Robin Cook: May I heartily congratulate my right hon. Friend on a landmark agreement—without the qualifications that we have just heard from the Opposition Dispatch Box? Does he agree with me that we do not have to endorse all the foreign—or, indeed, the domestic—policies of Colonel Gadafi to recognise this as a good agreement that we should welcome, that serves our interests and that is also right for Libya? We should certainly go into this with our eyes open and without any false impression about what may be in the background or about some of Colonel Gadafi's current policies. But if we do not respond generously and openly to this good agreement, we are very unlikely to get any other such agreements from any other country in the world.
Finally, may I invite my right hon. Friend to convey the House's warm appreciation to the career diplomats in the middle east command, who have proved that patient and persistent diplomatic engagement can be as successful as any dramatic method in reaching a solution?
Mr. Straw: I thank my right hon. Friend for the very diplomatic terms in which he put that question—the season of good cheer has obviously continued into the first week of January. In turn, I should like to offer my thanks to him for the leadership that he showed some years ago. He took some rather difficult decisions, opening up relations with the Libyans to get agreements in respect of Lockerbie, and to set the ground for agreement to pay compensation to WPC Fletcher's family. However, in answer to a question from the right hon. and learned Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram)—I am sorry that I did not deal with it directly—I accept that there are still outstanding issues to be dealt with by the Libyans in respect of their co-operation in our identifying WPC Fletcher's likely murderers.
I shall of course pass on my right hon. Friend's thanks to the career diplomats, and to the others—they are well known to him—who worked so hard on this dossier. I endorse the point that he makes: this is a sensible agreement that is right for the international community, but is also right for Libya. Over the years, it has become apparent inside Libya that its future security would not be assured in any way by its developing unlawful weapons programmes in the nuclear, chemical and biological fields, and that it is far more likely to be assured—as I am sure it will be—by its coming fully into the international fold.
Mr. Michael Moore: The Foreign Secretary's statement is extremely welcome. In respect of Libya, we must never forget the atrocities committed at Lockerbie or the callous murder of WPC Fletcher. However, at a time of enormous worldwide uncertainty and danger, Libya's new willingness to comply with international obligations represents a major breakthrough. The Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister deserve full credit for their part in securing that. To the warm thanks
26
already offered in this Chamber, I add my own warm thanks to the civil servants and diplomats involved, both here and in America.
According to the Foreign Secretary's statement, Libya had succeeded in enriching uranium, yet according to the International Atomic Energy Agency, the programme was still at a very early stage in its development. Can he clarify his understanding of the progress made by Libya? What does he expect the international inspection regime's timetable to be and what role will the UK play in it?
Putting this development into its wider context, does the Foreign Secretary agree that, as the right hon. Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook) said, patient multilateral diplomacy offers the best way of removing the worldwide threat of nuclear and other weapons of mass destruction? Building on the recent successes in Iran and Libya, can he assure us that the Government will use this newly created momentum to intensify the effort for diplomatic solutions in other potential flashpoints, such as North Korea?
Mr. Straw: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his opening remarks. He is right to say that we must never forget either the poor souls who lost their lives on the day of the Lockerbie atrocity or the outrageous murder of WPC Fletcher. We do not intend to do so.
The hon. Gentleman asked about the timetable. What is now happening—this partly answers his question about uranium enrichment—is the beginning of a programme of inspection and verification by the IAEA and the OPCW. The remit is wide but has limits. Parallel discussions are also taking place between Libya and the United States and the United Kingdom in respect of other matters. A report will be presented to the March meeting of the IAEA board of governors, though what it will contain remains to be seen. The IAEA's inspectors and our own experts are still actively investigating issues about the extent of the uranium enrichment facilities.
I agree with the hon. Gentleman about patient multilateral diplomacy. I have always been in favour of it, as have the whole Government. However, we must bear in mind that any sort of diplomacy can have effect only if there is a willing interlocutor. That applied in Iran and Libya, and I hope that the relative early success of those two engagements will encourage the forces of light in countries that still harbour unlawful weapons programmes to engage in similar diplomatic activity. That will require them, as much as us, to engage with the process.
Mr. Russell Brown: The whole House will welcome today's announcement and developments over recent weeks. My right hon. Friend mentioned Lockerbie, and compensation is still very much on the agenda. However, I am sure that he and other hon. Members will agree that compensation can never make up for the loss of loved ones—all 270 of them. It has been said recently that because the US is not lifting sanctions—necessary by 12 May—Libya will withhold the compensation payments. Will the Foreign Secretary do everything in his power to ensure that his colleagues in the US lift those sanctions? Can he provide

27
a simple answer to a simple question—and will he put it to Colonel Gadafi—that Lockerbie families still ask? Why was Pan Am flight 103 targeted in the first place?
Mr. Straw: My hon. Friend speaks with special poignancy and authority, because Lockerbie is in his constituency. He is right that no amount of compensation, apologies or trial processes can ever make up for the loss of innocent lives on that dreadful December day in 1988. That said, it is better for compensation and apologies to be offered and for trial processes to be in place than not.
On the issue of lifting US sanctions and its link with the payment of compensation under Security Council resolution 1506, I am in regular contact with US Secretary of State, Colin Powell, and I will be happy to raise the issue with him. I propose to have a brief meeting with my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries (Mr. Brown) immediately after the statement.
Sir Teddy Taylor: Does the Foreign Secretary agree that it is desperately important for world peace that we make a positive and meaningful response to this concession by Libya, and indeed the similar concessions of Iran? Will he make real endeavours to persuade the United States to lift trade sanctions? Will the resumption of normality lead to an invitation to Colonel Gadafi to visit the United Kingdom?
Mr. Straw: As I said in my statement, we recognise that in response to the important series of measures announced and taken by Libya, including its acceptance of proper verification and inspection, we now have corresponding responsibilities to enable Libya fully to enter the mainstream of the international community. There will be a phased programme that will, among other things, involve the lifting of sanctions and other restrictions placed on the country. That applies not only to United Nations sanctions, which were formally lifted on 12 September by resolution 1506, but to those restrictions imposed by the United Kingdom, the European Union and the United States, whose Government are properly seized of the fact that there are obligations on them.
Joan Ruddock: As someone who has long advocated unilateral steps to multilateral disarmament, may I add my congratulations to the Libyan authorities and, particularly, to the British Government for their role? Does my right hon. Friend agree that if the progress that is being made in Libya, and indeed in Iran, is to be continued and sustained, Israel too must surely be brought within the ambit of international disarmament agreements?
Mr. Straw: I thank my hon. Friend for the congratulations. As far as Israel is concerned, the UK Government have long had a policy of seeking a nuclear-free area in the whole of the middle east. The fact that efforts in which we have been heavily involved have greatly reduced the threat of unlawful weapons programmes in Iran, Libya and Iraq should provide
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significant food for thought for those in Israel. At the same time, what would also greatly ease the security situation would be for the Arab and Islamic states to recognise Israel's right to exist within international borders and to cease to threaten its very existence. That, frankly, is what places Israel in a different security category from any other country in the world. If other Arab countries were to follow the example of Egypt, Jordan and some other states in recognising Israel's right to exist within accepted international borders—they do not have to recognise the line of the fence or issues about refugee return and other complex matters that are bound up in a long-term peace settlement—it would make a huge difference to the climate of insecurity in Israel and enable us to pursue an active dialogue with Israel much more effectively.
Mr. Patrick McLoughlin: Does the Foreign Secretary believe that the bombing of Pan Am 103 was done with the prior approval of Gadafi?
Mr. Straw: I have no direct information to that effect.
Mr. Clive Soley: It struck me, as I heard about this welcome agreement, that we have to deal with states in which there are individual differences. Libya was moving, and it was right that we encouraged it to continue to do so, as is the case in Iran and, possibly, Syria. The problem is with countries such as Iraq, where, in spite of numerous United Nations resolutions, there is no sign of movement whatsoever. One lesson we must learn is that the UN should not again pass resolutions without the least intention of acting on them. If there is pressure for reform and reform is taking place, we should support it. If there is none, we have to take other and firmer action.
Mr. Straw: I entirely agree with those sentiments. Active, peaceful diplomacy is always to be preferred, but it is sometimes possible only if there is the possibility of an alternative approach with a harder edge to its diplomacy. After 12 years, that was the situation and choice that we faced in Iraq. There is great food for thought for the whole international community and those committed to the United Nations in how it should change its future approach to deal with the modern threats that affect our security, which were simply absent, and therefore not considered, at the time when the UN charter was developed in the mid-1940s.
Mr. Crispin Blunt: May I say that Mr. William Ehrman and the other Foreign Office officials who so brilliantly conducted the negotiations may not be entirely happy with the Foreign Secretary associating them with a "dossier"?
By implication, in his answer to my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram), the Foreign Secretary said that Pakistan's involvement was now the subject of verification procedures? Will there be any consequences for Pakistan if its reported involvement is verified? What assurance can the Foreign Secretary give the House that he is absolutely confident that elements of the Pakistani Administration are not continuing with proliferation?
Mr. Straw: When I used the word "dossier", it was in the French sense of an "active file". I will pass on the hon. Gentleman's compliments to my excellent team of officials. I have already replied to his question about other countries alleged to have been associated with Libya. Such matters are being carefully investigated by the IAEA, within its remit, and we will wait to see what it says.
Mr. Tam Dalyell: In the light of the fact that Mr. Eddie MacKechnie, the distinguished Glasgow solicitor and Abdelbaset al-Megrahi's lawyer, is appealing on his client's behalf through the Scottish criminal procedure in the belief that he is innocent of the Pan Am 103 crime, could my right hon. Friend ask the Libyans—in the new atmosphere—if Mr. al-Megrahi was guilty, what did he do, in detail, in Malta in the first three weeks of December 1988? Would my right hon. Friend accept—
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman knows the rules—only one supplementary question.
Mr. Straw: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for prior notice of his detailed question. As he mentioned, a further attempt at appeal is being made on behalf of Mr. al-Megrahi. Our judgment is that his trial and appeal were conducted with fairness, thoroughness and dignity under Scots law. The judges concluded that the conception, planning and execution of the bombing were of Libyan origin. The Libyan Government have subsequently accepted responsibility for the actions of their officials, in accordance with Security Council resolutions. As a result, United Nations sanctions were lifted. That is the position of the Libyan Government and it is one that we support.
Dr. Julian Lewis: Does the Foreign Secretary agree that this progressive development shows that those people who anticipated a uniting of the Arab nations against the United Kingdom as a result of military action against Iraq have been proven wrong? Does he agree that we could go further and say that despite the long-term diplomatic moves, it was firm military action that had something to do with the outcome in Libya and a possible future outcome in Iraq?
Mr. Straw: I agree with the hon. Gentleman's first point. All kinds of dire predictions were made about what would happen if military action were taken against Iraq. Although the casualty figures in Iraq for coalition forces and for Iraqis have been higher than we anticipated, the negative regional consequences have not occurred. In fact, the regional consequences have been benign. As for the effect of the military action against Iraq on the Libyan discussions, we should remember that the discussions started four years before. It will be for historians to judge the exact effect of the invasion of Iraq, but the removal of Saddam Hussein removed the threat that he posed to the region. Those unfamiliar with the Arab world do not properly understand the focus for instability that Saddam provided, and to that extent his removal helped to
30
improve the climate so that the leaders with whom we have been dealing have felt more secure about actively continuing negotiations.
Mr. Andrew Dismore: I welcome my right hon. Friend's statement, but the renunciation of terrorism by Libya has been met with scepticism in certain parts of my constituency, especially given that on 22 December the Libyan Prime Minister said on the "Today" programme that Libya had never supported terrorism, only freedom fighters—a euphemistic term, as usual—and that on 4 November Colonel Gadafi made a speech that apparently encouraged women to engage in suicide bombing. What assurances have been given by Libya, especially in the context of its support for middle-east terrorism?
Mr. Straw: My hon. Friend will be aware that many people—some in this country but certainly in the middle east—continue to draw a distinction between freedom fighters and terrorists. That distinction is not recognised by the United Nations, nor indeed by anybody in the House, but it exists and it is argued about. Libya has made considerable progress in its practical renunciation of support for terrorism. It cannot change its history, but it has clearly renounced violence, terrorism and the use of weapons of mass destruction and their proliferation. It is taking active and verifiable steps to meet its promises, and that is good progress. Of course, all of us are right to be cautious and to ensure that progress will continue in the future, but equally we must recognise our responsibilities to Libya.
Mr. John Wilkinson: In his statement the Foreign Secretary gave us the welcome news that the Libyan Government are to reimburse the Export Credits Guarantee Department to the tune of £20 million that was presumably paid out to British exporters on whose payments the Libyans defaulted. Can he tell us whether there have been significant discussions of the new business climate with Libya? Is not British business eager to seize any opportunities that may exist in the new atmosphere in Libya? For example, will the Libyans allow the repatriation of profits and capital of British businesses that may ultimately invest in Libya? Is not business the best way to cement a nascent relationship?
Mr. Straw: There has not been detailed discussion of business relations in the context of these discussions. That would not have been appropriate. However, the shift by Libya towards meeting its obligations to the Export Credits Guarantee Department on 30 December is, I think, an indication that Libya wants not only to normalise business relations with the United Kingdom but to see them flourish—as we do—in the new climate.
David Winnick: I welcome the decision made by Libya; undoubtedly, Iraq has concentrated quite a few minds. Can my right hon. Friend tell us whether there is any intention to press the Libyan Government on improvements in the human rights situation in that country? The country remains a dictatorship and a state where any criticism of the colonel means persecution and worse. Does my right hon. Friend agree that, before there is any question of

31
the colonel being invited to this country, as has been suggested by the Opposition—I hope that does not occur—there will have to be real and substantial improvements in human rights?
Mr. Straw: Plainly, human rights will be one of the many issues that I shall seek to discuss with Foreign Minister Shalgam when he visits the United Kingdom—I hope, in the next three or four weeks. That is the case in respect of any country with which we have productive bilateral relationships.
Mr. Jonathan Djanogly: I welcome the move towards decommissioning but as I am mindful of the litany of broken promises from Colonel Gadafi over the years, will the Foreign Secretary confirm that the opening of the door to increased relations with Libya, whether in business or otherwise, will be commensurate with the rate at which the Libyans decommission?
Mr. Straw: It will not be arithmetically commensurate but we shall of course be taking account of progress and continuing good faith on the Libyan side, just as they will be taking account of progress and good faith on the United States, United Kingdom and international organisation side.
Mr. George Foulkes: Does the Foreign Secretary agree that this agreement between the west and a formerly hostile Muslim country helps to undermine the terror network of Osama bin Laden? Does he further agree that it indicates that those who felt that the liberation of Iraq would make the world more dangerous have been proved wrong? May I warn him, however, not to expect to be showered with compliments from the usual suspects, none of whom, of course, are in the Chamber today?
Mr. Straw: May I say to my right hon. Friend that one compliment from him is worth a thousand from the usual suspects?
There is no direct, obvious link between what has happened in respect of Libya's weapons programmes and active terrorism, but what we have been doing in Libya, separately in respect of Iran and Iraq and, for example, with the very good progress that, thank God, is now being made in India and Pakistan is to help to create an environment in which terrorists will find it much more difficult to operate. That will not produce immediate dividends, but it will over time, for sure, help to stabilise those countries and those environments, and therefore reduce the scope for international terrorism.
Hugh Robertson: In addition to the Lockerbie bombing and the murder of WPC Fletcher, the Libyan Government were known to be a substantial supplier of arms to the IRA throughout the 1980s. Given that the type and quantity of those arms is still unknown and that they remain a considerable obstacle to the Northern Ireland peace
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process, have the Libyan Government indicated to the British Government that they will give them a full and frank inventory of all those arms supplied?
Mr. Straw: There are and have been discussions on that matter, but I apologise to the hon. Gentleman for not going into too much detail about it.
Mike Gapes: Does the Foreign Secretary think that one of the factors leading to the Libyan decision could have been the fact that Libya itself has experienced some terrorism from organisations linked to bin Laden? In that context, does he think that the alleged bin Laden statement is partly directed at Libya, as well as at the other Arab regimes that have taken a more responsible position over recent years?
Mr. Straw: I am in no doubt at all that there is an increasing realisation across the Arab and Islamic world that the greatest victims of so-called Islamic terrorism perpetrated by al-Qaeda and its associates are members of the Islamic faith and that if people are not for such vicious perverted people whose creed has nothing whatever to do with Islam, they are against them and they are more likely to be a victim of their terrorism than those of us in the west.
Gregory Barker: I, too, pay tribute to the British diplomats and also the unsung heroes of the Secret Intelligence Service who have played a very important role in reaching this agreement, but may I ask the Foreign Secretary whether, as a result of the rapprochement with the United Kingdom and the United States, Colonel Gadafi, who remains a dictator and tyrant at home, is more or less secure in that position?
Mr. Straw: Frankly, that is for Colonel Gadafi to judge, but it is hard to take such decisions in terms of a country's external relations without those decisions also having a beneficial and positive impact on relations within a country and in respect of how his government—with a small "g"—operates.
Mr. Andrew Miller: Do we know whether Libya intends to continue its work on the nuclear cycle for peaceful purposes?
Mr. Straw: That is a matter for Libya to disclose, but my understanding is that it does not intend to do so.
Mr. George Osborne: Does the Foreign Secretary remember that some hon. Members argued that action against Iraq would encourage proliferation, as rogue states sought a nuclear guarantee against American and British intervention? Has not Libya's action and indeed the willingness of Iran and North Korea to engage in dialogue demolished yet another anti-war argument?
Mr. Straw: Yes.
Hugh Bayley: What encouragement does my right hon. Friend think that these welcome developments will have on disarmament

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and peace-building elsewhere in Africa? Of course, those important objectives of the New Partnership for Africa's Development are essential if the continent is to develop economically.
Mr. Straw: I do not know whether there will be direct effects on peace processes in sub-Saharan Africa, not least because the economies of countries there are in a very different state of development, and there is no suggestion that any country in sub-Saharan Africa has developed a nuclear or chemical weapons programme.
Mr. George Osborne: South Africa.
Mr. Straw: Apart, of course, from South Africa, which, as I was about to say, is the one country in the world that voluntarily gave up its nuclear weapons programme without any external pressure and has been the subject of full verification by the IAEA. That said, important peace processes are taking place in respect of the Great Lakes region and in Burundi, Sudan, Somalia and west Africa, and I am clear that the example of negotiated solutions to problems faced by states on the continent of Africa as a whole will be a good one.

Point of Order
4.15 pm
Mr. John Gummer(Con): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You will have seen on the front page of The Times today an authoritative report that the Deputy Prime Minister has decided to take planning powers away from local authorities in making decisions about planning in rural areas. Have you had any request from the Deputy Prime Minister to make this statement to the House rather than leaking it to the press?
Mr. Speaker: The Deputy Prime Minister has not been in touch with me [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I see no reason why the Deputy Prime Minister should be in touch. It is up to him whether he wishes to make a statement on these matters.

Orders of the Day

  Traffic Management Bill
  [Relevant documents: Fifth Report from the Transport Committee, Session 2002–03, on Local Roads and Pathways, HC 407-I, and the Government response thereto, Cm 6007; First Report from the Transport Committee, Session 2003–04, on the Traffic Management Bill, HC 144; and Evidence taken before the Transport Committee on 12 and 19 December, relating to Traffic Law and its Enforcement, HC 105-i and -ii.]
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Mr. Speaker: I inform the House that I have selected the amendment in the name of the Leader of the Opposition.
  4.16 pm
  The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. Alistair Darling): I beg to move, that the Bill be read a Second time.
  The Bill will allow us to put in place measures to make road travel more reliable and will help to reduce congestion. It has three main objectives. First, it will allow better management of the motorway network, including the introduction of a new traffic officer service, which will also free up police time for other duties. Secondly, it will provide for more effective management of the local road network. Thirdly, it will introduce new measures better to control roadworks, including the introduction of a new permit scheme. The Bill also contains new measures better to co-ordinate traffic management in London in part 5, as well as powers for local authorities to enforce traffic contraventions in part 6.
  I should like to deal with each part of the Bill in turn, and I come first to the proposals in part 1 better to manage the motorway network. The pressures on the motorway network are well known. We are dealing with the consequences of decades of underinvestment, coupled with the pressures of rising prosperity. We are one of the largest economies of the world and people are better off and they are travelling more on our roads and elsewhere.
  There are three steps necessary to reduce congestion and make journeys more reliable. First, we are investing in new capacity where it is needed to tackle congestion and improve safety, including proposals to widen roads and to improve various pinch-points in the system. In the past two years, 17 trunk road schemes have been completed, and we announced last year that we would take forward proposals to widen key strategic arteries, such as the M1, M6 and M25. Secondly, we are improving rail and other public transport so that it provides a better choice, and we are doubling rail spending over five years. Thirdly, we need to make better use of existing infrastructure, improving the way that it is managed, and that is where part 1 of the Bill will help.
  On trunk roads, 25 per cent. of congestion is caused by traffic incidents and accidents, which is why central to this strategy is the recognition that by managing our road space properly we can get more out of it, and that is why the Highways Agency is being given new powers
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  and duties in the Bill to manage the road network more effectively to ensure that when there are incidents or accidents on the roads they are cleared up quickly and responded to promptly.
  Part of what is needed is better information. Already the Highways Agency's national traffic control centre in the west midlands is being brought into use, and once it is fully operational this summer it will monitor traffic conditions and be able to provide up-to-date information for the whole of the trunk network, something that I think that most people will value.
  Mr. Andrew Miller: I appreciate that from the point of view of road users results of incidents need to be cleared up quickly, but can my right hon. Friend assure me that there will be no relaxation of the need where appropriate to treat the site of an incident as a crime scene?
  Mr. Darling: My hon. Friend is quite right. Under the Bill, the Highways Agency and the police will work together. If there is an accident, the police will be on duty and they will need to take steps to find out whether there has been any criminal activity. But the big difference in future will be that the Highways Agency traffic officers will have the sole duty of getting traffic moving as quickly as possible.
  At the moment, if there is a major accident, it can sometimes take hours before the road is cleared and traffic can move freely. Once the police are satisfied that all their work is done in relation to any criminal activity or assisting with the removal of casualties, it is not their job to make sure that the traffic is moving again, debris is cleared up and lorries or cars that need to be moved are dealt with quickly. In the proposals we recognise what the police do best and, at the same time, recognise the need to manage our motorways far better than we do at present. That is the answer to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Mr. Miller).
  Several hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Darling: I cannot promise to give way to everybody, but I shall give way to as many Members as possible.
  Mr. David Wilshire: The documents issued by the right hon. Gentleman say that the police will be in charge of the new officers. However, can he assure the House that if those traffic officers get to the scene first they will have to wait for the police to arrive, rather than act in their absence?
  Mr. Darling: The police are not in charge of those officers, who are employed by the Highways Agency. However, there will be a clear distinction between police duties to investigate any crime when they arrive to help with the removal of any casualties and the job of traffic officers on the highway, which is not to do police work but to get the traffic moving as quickly as possible. Most people, when they see an accident or incident on the road, are anxious that, as soon as the injured are taken to hospital, the road should be cleared as quickly as possible, and that is what the traffic officers will do.
  Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody: Can my right hon. Friend therefore tell us who

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  will decide what is adequate evidence when there is a road accident—the traffic officer who arrives first to clear the way or the police officer who arrives subsequently and will have to gather evidence, possibly for a criminal case?
  Mr. Darling: The people who decide what evidence is to be gathered and make such an assessment are the police. The arrangements have been worked up in conjunction with the Association of Chief Police Officers, which fully supports the idea that its officers' time should be freed up so that they can get on with other duties once they have dealt with the immediate aftermath of an accident. Protocols will also be put in place to ensure that it is clear who does what. The main problem that we are trying to deal with is all too common—after the police have finished at the site, nothing happens for a long time while somebody works out whose job it is to get the traffic going. Many hon. Members have probably sat in their car on the motorway facing precisely that problem and experienced the inevitable frustration that it brings.
  Mr. Robert Key: May I give credit where credit is due, as there is a great deal in the Bill that deserves commendation, although it also includes some slightly strange ideas?
  A decade ago, when I was Minister for Roads and Traffic, we had a go at this problem, and tried hard to find a way to clear up accidents after the injured had been taken away and so on. The stumbling block was not the police or the collection of evidence but the coroner's instructions. County coroners put a stop to efforts to clear things up quickly. They would not, for example, allow videotaped evidence, and insisted that policemen measure things with tape measures and chalk on the road. Has the Secretary of State managed to get over that particular roadblock?
  Mr. Darling: I certainly hope we have. The problem is not just how much evidence needs to be obtained, which is obviously kept under review. I was talking about the delay that arises when all the evidence, on any view, has been collected, but before the traffic is moving again. The primary duty of traffic officers is to help, not just in accidents but in other incidents on the road, to get traffic moving. As I said, 25 per cent. of congestion on trunk roads is caused by incidents and accidents. If we could reduce that figure substantially, that would give us an awful lot more capacity on existing roads. There is common ground between Members on both sides of the House about the fact that we do not have enough road capacity at present.
  Hugh Bayley: My right hon. Friend referred to the increased investment that the Government are putting into the railways. Of course, it is necessary to ensure that that increased investment results in better services for the public. What changes is he contemplating making to hold train operating companies, as well as infrastructure renewal and track maintenance companies, more responsible so that we get a good benefit for the passenger in return for the investment?
  Mr. Darling: My hon. Friend is right to raise that issue, which is of continuing concern. I do not want to
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  go into too much detail about it, not least because the Bill is more about roads than railways. As one can traditionally wander slightly widely on Second Reading, however, I can say that I agree with the thrust of what he says. If we are doubling rail spending, as is the case, we are entitled to ensure that we get a pound's worth of benefit for every pound that we spend. That is why we have been concentrating over the past few years on driving down costs and improving reliability, but we still have a long way to go, as everybody would agree.
  Mr. Patrick McLoughlin Mr. Patrick McLoughlin (West Derbyshire) (Con) rose—
  Several hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Darling: I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman, but then press on, if I may, as we seem to be in something of a traffic jam at the moment.
  Mr. McLoughlin: I am grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way. One of the problems when an accident takes place and a fatality occurs is that the family of the deceased person will rightly want to know that every course of inquiry has been pursued. Will he give an assurance that that process is still in the proper control of the police officers investigating the accident and that nothing will be done to prevent them from carrying out necessary inquiries? At the time of an accident, inquiries may not automatically show that a major incident or crime has occurred, as that can be established only by proper investigation. Will he give that assurance today?
  Mr. Darling: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. We are not proposing anything that would curtail the powers and duties of the police to investigate an accident, report any criminal activity that they feel has occurred and otherwise ensure that everything else is attended to in the way that he described. What we are concerned about is ensuring that, once the police have completed their duty as quickly as possible, any vehicles involved are removed so that the traffic can flow as quickly as possible.
  The first phase of what we propose will be introduced on the M42 in the west midlands later this year, with powers—if the House grants them—enabling traffic officers increasingly to take on the duties that I have described. Part 1 allows the traffic officer service, which will be uniformed, to take over the duties that I have set out so as to help keep traffic moving and speed up response times to incidents. Traffic officers will be able to deal with all the problems that we have discussed so that they can get the traffic moving as soon as possible.
  I should like to deal now with one point that I dare say will arise later in the debate. In relation to the removal of vehicles, the Royal Automobile Club and others have asked whether it is the Government's intention to usurp their functions; the answer is no, it is not. People who are members of the RAC, the Automobile Association and other organisations join them partly so that they can be taken off the motorway if they need assistance. We have no problem with that, but we are concerned that several hours should not elapse between an accident occurring and the removal of a vehicle simply because nobody is

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  on hand to remove it. I believe that the measure will help to improve things and, as I said, the first phase will be introduced in the west midlands later this year.
  Clause 6 sets out specific powers enabling traffic officers to stop and direct traffic similar to those used by the police, so they will be able to divert traffic away from problems and manage traffic flow. The police will remain responsible for investigating serious accidents and other incidents, as we have described, but the two organisations will be working together. The new traffic officer service will also enable us to manage the motorway network better, making better use of road space, because the officers will be on hand quickly to deal with any source of delay, which, it is to be hoped, will avoid delay for road users.
  We are putting in place measures to transform the way in which traffic is managed on the trunk road network, making journeys safer and more reliable, but more effective management of the local road network is also essential. It is worth bearing in mind that more than half the journeys made in this country are local trips of less than five miles. Part 2 provides for more effective management of local road networks. We are already giving councils more money to tackle the backlog in investment and maintenance on roads by providing some £30 billion over 10 years; indeed, the local transport plan settlement that was announced last December gave local authorities £1.6 billion. But money is only part of the solution. We also need a change in culture and approach to ensure that the road network locally is managed in the interests of road users.
  Mr. Graham Stringer: Part 2 gives central Government the power to replace traffic authorities and give them general directions. How can my right hon. Friend assure the House that that is not a centralising measure, given that the regulatory impact assessment gives no figures for costs or benefits? I would expect the Government to show the House that the Bill will have a genuine, measurable benefit.
  Mr. Darling: The main thrust of this part of the Bill is the requirement on local authorities to appoint traffic managers. That is not a centralising measure: the best people to manage a local road network are those who know it and can see what happens from day to day. The Bill is intended to deal with a situation that arises in every town and city from time to time: roadworks that cause great congestion because the knock-on effects of digging up or blocking off a road are not properly thought through. Roadworks start, the contractors go away, and nothing happens; or the roadworks are not properly laid out. That can lead to many difficulties, sometimes to chaos and gridlock. Hon. Members will be familiar with what happened in London at the end of 2002, when large areas of the city ground to a halt because of the volume of roadworks, the consequences of which had not been fully thought out.
  Central Government are not very good at sorting such problems out—it can be done only by local authorities. We want them to appoint a traffic manager with the statutory duty set out in clause 16 and subsequent clauses and then to ensure that that person has the responsibility of planning matters so that traffic
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  is kept moving. I should have thought that most people would agree that it makes sense to change the focus and culture of councils to ensure that they concentrate on getting traffic moving. Unfortunately, roadworks are a fact of life, but we can manage them much better. The Bill is not centralising; it tells councils that they have a duty to get on with it, because large numbers of them could do better.
  Mrs. Anne Campbell: I speak as a cyclist, as well as an occasional motorist. Will my right hon. Friend consider additional clauses to give the new traffic managers powers to move on people who are inappropriately parked? That not only causes congestion for motorists but can create huge dangers for cyclists—for example, if someone is parked across a cycle way.
  Mr. Darling: The duty to deal with people who park in the wrong place lies with traffic wardens or, in some cases, policemen. The job of the traffic manager, who is an official of the council—not necessarily a new person, but someone specially designated—is to ensure that the council organises matters so as to give priority to keeping traffic moving. Too often, that does not happen. I agree that many other things need to be done and that councils should pay attention to the way in which people park, which can cause great difficulty not only to cyclists but to pedestrians and others.
  Mr. Simon Thomas: We support the Bill because it is a devolutionary measure. The National Assembly, with local authorities, will decide what happens in Wales. However, does the Secretary of State share the concern of many people that the traffic management duty in clause 16 may be too narrowly focused in terms of taking into account wider community concerns? Two of the purposes of traffic management should be safety on the roads and, ultimately, wherever possible, traffic reduction that integrates with other schemes such as increased cycle access or pedestrianisation. Would not the Bill be improved if it addressed those wider sustainable developments, as well as safety issues?
  Mr. Darling: Strangely enough, I agree with the hon. Gentleman about the need to make sure that the wider implications are taken into account, but I do not agree that we should extend the duties of the traffic manager. If we add more and more duties and take more and more matters into account, the whole exercise becomes pointless. We are making sure that someone has a statutory duty to do everything possible to keep traffic moving. That is new and provides a single point of accountability and responsibility. In time, it will change the culture and approach of councils. Unfortunately, there are councils that have not paid enough attention to that, and it is one of the main causes of congestion in our streets.
  Simon Hughes: Like many others, I broadly welcome the Bill, but can the Secretary of State explain the criteria for intervention that would allow him, for example, to replace the Mayor of London as the person looking

  41
  after London transport, or to replace the traffic manager in any London borough so that they would not have to heed what the Mayor of London was doing? The Government took powers to intervene in local education authorities and appointed private contractors in Southwark. They were hopeless and withdrew because they were not making enough money, and the whole thing fell apart. Have we learned the lessons of that?
  Mr. Darling: I cannot imagine why the hon. Gentleman should be worried about the Bill taking powers away from the Mayor of London. [Interruption.] Some of my hon. Friends unkindly remark that that is unlikely to trouble him in future, either. I am glad that he mentioned London, because the situation there is slightly different. Not only is there Transport for London, but there are 33 boroughs. He will have seen that there are powers in the Bill to ensure greater co-ordination across the boroughs without work in one borough disrupting transport for a large chunk of London.
  As the hon. Gentleman mentioned, if the local authority is judged to be failing, there are powers that can be used to order the appointment of a traffic director. That is appropriate if the local authority refuses to do anything about the matter. In London there has been a history of people not working as closely as they should. Interestingly, the evidence so far is that TfL, the police and the boroughs have been working a lot more closely over the past few months. One example is the work done to the Hammersmith flyover last August. All the usual predictions of chaos and confusion were made but, if I remember rightly, work was completed early and the project was well managed.
  There are other examples, too. Towards the end of 2002, once people began to focus on the problems being caused by the work at Vauxhall cross, Trafalgar square, round Westminster and so on, it was amazing how the flow of traffic could be improved. The powers in the Bill allow that to happen. Yes, there are reserve powers that would allow us to step in if that was thought necessary.
  I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's broad welcome. It is unfortunate that most of the Conservative party have taken a slightly different view. One wonders what their solution to the problems might be. Since the hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs. May) has been in charge of both transport and the environment, the only thing that is clear is that she does not have a policy on anything. Perhaps we will find out more this afternoon.
  Mr. John Redwood: I strongly welcome the requirement on local authorities to secure the expeditious movement of traffic. That is an extremely good idea. I understand how it applies to temporary street works and obstacles, but does it also apply to permanent obstacles imposed by local authorities? Would the traffic manager be required to review the phasing of traffic lights and junction design, which are often the main obstacles to the flow of traffic? That would make me welcome the Bill even more.
  Mr. Darling: Yes, he would. The right hon. Gentleman is right—sometimes road layout and design are fundamental. For example, when the new bus ways
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  were introduced in Leeds, the road layout had to be changed radically to make the whole system work. That is an important point.
  Mr. Speaker has selected the reasoned amendment for debate, and I would like to say a word about that before I turn to the third part of the Bill, which relates to street works and permit schemes. The amendment states:
  "street works…cause only 10 per cent. of delays".
  I wonder where the hon. Member for Maidenhead and the hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. Green) got that statistic from—[Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman mutters sotto voce that it was from the Transport Research Laboratory. That is indeed where the figure comes from, but it refers to a study of the amount of delays on trunk roads. One does not have to be an expert to have noticed that the utility companies tend not to dig up motorways to put in cables.
  Most of us are aware that roadworks are an increasing source of disruption for road users. In 1985, for example, utility company street works caused about £35 million worth of disruption to road users. It is thought that that figure had risen to more than £2.5 billion by 1992, and I believe that the most recent estimate, which is still being evaluated, will show a further increase. The majority of people who have commented on the Bill have said—and I am in no doubt—that street works are a cause of major concern. We need to recognise that, move on and introduce a new system for regulating them.
  In 1991, which was the last time that the Government looked into these issues, there were far fewer utilities digging up roads and providing services. There is now an increasing number of them, which is something that we want to encourage. The utilities and providers of services are an essential part of this country, but we need to provide a far better system for regulating the way in which roads are dug up and the number of times that that can happen. Part 3 will enable us to do just that.
  Mr. Richard Allan: On that point, does the Secretary of State recognise the public interest that is served by the continuing development of telecommunications networks, as exemplified by the Government's own broadband Britain strategy? Will he assure the House that any regulations introduced under this part of the Bill will not add unnecessary burdens or costs to that essential part of the UK economy?
  Mr. Darling: The hon. Gentleman is right that that is an essential part of the United Kingdom economy and we want to encourage it. However, it should be possible for us better to organise the way in which cables are put under ground and the number of times that a road needs to be dug up during a particular period.
  The permit system that we propose is modelled on one in use in New York, where permits specify when work can be carried out. For example, it can be specified that some work can be done only in the evening when it would cause less disruption, rather than during the rush hour, depending on what is being done and where. Provision can also be made there to ensure that the time taken to do the work is divided up so that roads are not blocked for weeks on end without anything actually happening. It can also be a requirement that only one

  43
  lane of a road can be dealt with at a time. In other words, a permit can set out all kinds of terms and conditions to ensure that the work is done properly.
  I am sure that the utilities, local authorities and the traffic manager who will have to regulate these things will be able to put in place a system that is fair to the people who put in the services, to those who want to use them and to road users who often face a great deal of disruption. In most cases, the work could be better organised than it is at present, and the permit system is designed to achieve that. Our intention is not to prevent such work from being carried out—far from it. It is to ensure that it is done more efficiently and better co-ordinated.
  The Bill includes a number of other measures. It will, for example, enable local authorities to direct utilities to resurface the full width of a road if it is so badly damaged that that is justified. Part 6 will extend the scope for local authorities to take over the enforcement of certain traffic offences from the police. I would like to say a word about that, as it has been the subject of some comment in the press and other media. Indeed, the hon. Member for Ashford has been quite active on this issue over the weekend. The Bill proposes, in certain cases, to transfer to the local authority the enforcement power in relation to parking offences or offences such as driving in a bus lane or waiting on a box junction. I cannot see anything philosophically wrong with that. The first time that such a transfer happened was in 1991, when powers relating to the enforcement of parking penalties were transferred to local authorities.
  When I was listening to the hon. Member for Ashford on the "Today" programme shortly before I went on, it occurred to me that in 1991 someone other than us must have been in government and that someone must have thought this a jolly good idea. I asked someone to peruse the Conservative central office website, as one does, and we happened on the entry for the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope), who is in the Chamber. Under the heading, "Christopher's Experience", apart from finding out that Christopher was Member of Parliament for Southampton, Itchen from 1983 until, sadly, just 1992, when circumstances intervened, we discover that between 1990 and 1992, which is the material time, he was Minister for Roads and Traffic.
  As one does, I then turned to Hansard for 5 February 1991, because I was anxious to find out why the Conservative Government thought it might be a jolly good idea to transfer enforcement powers from the police to local authorities. The hon. Gentleman said
  "But the police have only finite resources, and they have a responsibility to ensure that they are allocated on a proper priority basis."—[Official Report, Standing Committee G, 5 February 1991; c. 324.]
  He is quite right.
  Curiosity considerably aroused because of the vehemence of the attack levelled against us, I looked to see what else the Conservative party is producing. What better could I find than a policy statement from Steven Norris, whom we understand is to be the Conservative party candidate in the mayoral elections? It is very interesting. This, we must assume, is Conservative party
  44
  policy. Under the heading, "Enforce road regulations to ensure traffic flow", he says:
  "The Mayor should use existing camera technology as well as the transport police and traffic wardens to enforce road regulations and penalty notices."
  So it would appear that at some time the idea that local authorities could enforce such things was Conservative policy, and we find that the Conservatives' mayoral candidate seems to think it a good idea.
  When the police face so many other pressures and have so many other priorities, surely it makes sense that things such as keeping bus lanes clear and trying to dissuade people from going through an amber light, stopping in the middle of a box junction or stopping traffic moving could be left to those who are responsible to a local authority. I would have thought that quite reasonable. Having looked at what the Conservatives did and having listened to what the hon. Member for Ashford has said, he is guilty of indulging in a little humbug over the past few days.
  For the sake of completeness, my researches revealed a further aspect to which we shall no doubt return, although perhaps not today. The hon. Member for Christchurch has recently been vocal on the subject of speed cameras, as have others. I was therefore intrigued to find that section 19 of the Road Traffic Act 1991, for which he was responsible, made speed cameras possible. We have in the Chamber the father of the speed camera, sitting on the Opposition Front Bench.
  The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Dr. Kim Howells): Take a bow.
  Mr. Darling: I am going to give the hon. Member for Christchurch the credit that he deserves. On 10 December 1990, he said:
  "Our estimate is that, when clause 19"—
  the one that made speed cameras possible—
  "is fully implemented, some 2 million extra offences will be detected and subject to prosecution on fixed penalty tickets, which will mean the certainty of detection will be much greater. That is the greatest deterrent. In turn, it will lead to a dramatic improvement in road safety."—[Official Report, 10 December 1990; Vol. 182, c. 789.]
  He will be no doubt interested to know that his prediction of all those years ago is not far off the mark in respect of the number of offences and he is absolutely right that it makes a contribution to road safety. When we next hear him complaining about speed cameras, perhaps he will have the humility to confess that, if it had not been for him, there would be no speed cameras in this country.
  Mr. Andrew Robathan: The Secretary of State is being fairly amusing, but may I take him back to the serious point about local authority representatives essentially being the witnesses to and the prosecutors for road traffic offences? Parking is clear—one is parked either illegally or legally—but things are more difficult when the vehicle is moving. What training will those individuals have before they are used to prosecute people?
  Mr. Darling: There are a couple of points there. First, I agree that people must be trained properly. I agree that there is a world of difference between looking at a meter to see whether it has expired and looking at somebody who might be going into a bus lane. In the case of bus

  45
  lanes in London, that system is in place now. To a large extent, bus lanes in London are policed through remote cameras, and it is on the basis of such cameras that a penalty can be imposed.
  I want to make one further serious point, which bears on the speed camera question and on what we are proposing—I have said this outside the House and I should say it inside the House. It is important that we remember that there is a fine line between maintaining public support for things such as speed cameras—which have shown that they can reduce casualties and serious injuries—and keeping bus lanes and junctions clear, and individuals overstepping the mark. The public will stay with us if they believe that such measures are there to help them by reducing accidents and congestion, but they will not put up with it if they feel that people have gone beyond that point and are picking on them. They do not want that.
  The hon. Gentleman is right that the people about whom we are talking must be trained properly and know what their responsibilities are. It is important that people have confidence in them, because the object of these measures is to get traffic flowing more efficiently. We have all had experience of sitting in a bus that cannot go up the bus lane because someone is parked in the middle of it, or of being stuck at a junction that is blocked because people are ignoring the box markings and so on. If those problems can be sorted out, that will contribute to making traffic less congested.
  Mr. Roger Berry: One of the problems that many disabled people must put up with is disregard for the blue badge scheme. Part 6 seems to me ideal for dealing with its proper enforcement. It has been subject to a review, and the Government have broadly accepted the recommendations. Will my right hon. Friend take the opportunity that the Bill offers to address the scheme's proper enforcement?
  Mr. Darling: I am not sure that the Bill is the right place to do it. As my hon. Friend will know, we conducted a review after consultation with a wide variety of organisations. We may return to the matter in Committee but I cannot promise to include it in the Bill. If he is lucky enough to secure a place on the Committee that scrutinises the Bill—the Whip has already made a note of his name, which will teach him to intervene—the issue can no doubt be debated for many hours Upstairs.
  John Mann: The Secretary of State makes a powerful case for the use of public servants in some of these functions. One legacy of previous Governments, in 1991 and 1984, was the ability of local authorities to privatise such services. How does he square the lack of a provision in the Bill to tidy up that anomaly—for example, the ability to privatise local authority duties in relation to car parking—with the need, in his words, to take the public with us in these changes?
  Mr. Darling: I am not sure whether the fact that the people who enforce parking regulations work not for a council but a private company is the concern. The question is how they conduct themselves and enforce the rules and regulations. I have long taken the philosophic view that what matters is what works best—it does not
  46
  matter whether they are in the public or private sector. What does matter is that they know the rules, enforce them fairly and act reasonably. Problems have arisen when someone does not act reasonably, gets the back up of a member of the public unnecessarily, and moves from a situation in which they might have had tacit support to one in which they face outright opposition. That is what ought to be avoided.
  John Mann: What if a private operator employs car parking attendants who are on performance-related pay and, under the contracts, the local authority receives a set percentage of car parking charges while the contractor receives 100 per cent. of the fines? Might that not skew the actions of attendants and operators, and thus remove the public confidence in fairness and equity that is so crucial?
  Mr. Darling: It is for the local authority, whether it does the work itself or has decided to give it to someone else, to ensure that it strikes the right balance, applies the right rules and takes the right approach to enforcement. We have all come across people employed by councils, as well as people employed by private companies, whose attitude could do with some refinement; but, equally, we have come across people working for private companies and people working for councils whose manner as they issue a ticket is a sheer delight—they could not be nicer about it. If my hon. Friend is saying that the work should not be done in the private sector, I disagree with him, but he has probably just talked his way on to the Standing Committee, where he will be able to discuss the matter further.
  Mr. David Kidney: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that spending of the fines income from this civil enforcement will be restricted to traffic management schemes and local environmental schemes? That would make the proposals more acceptable to the public.
  Mr. Darling: None of these arrangements is there to raise revenue, any more than speed cameras are. The purpose of speed cameras is to reduce the number of deaths and serious injuries, which they have done by about 35 per cent.
  Just before the new year, I heard my hon. Friend on the radio arguing for tougher penalties and lower speed limits. He does not always give that impression when speaking to some newspapers, but he is right to suggest that it would be wrong of us to get rid of speed cameras, because there is evidence that they have indeed reduced the number of deaths and serious injuries. The Bill is designed primarily to ensure that traffic flows more smoothly than it does now, rather than to raise revenue. If revenue raising were our objective, we would bear it in mind that there are better ways of doing it.
  Mr. Wilshire: I shall resist the temptation to join in the private grief between the Secretary of State and his Back Benchers. May I return him to training, and his point about putting people's backs up? Can he assure us that training will include the use of common sense and discretion; otherwise, there will be a risk that the more enforcing officers there are, the more people will be alienated from authority? That could easily make

  47
  matters worse. I am with the Secretary of State in principle, but it would help enormously if training included such measures.
  Mr. Darling: The hon. Gentleman is right to the extent that common sense is essential in all policing, whether enforcement is carried out by police officers, traffic wardens or people whose job is dedicated to enforcing traffic regulations of this kind. Most people recognise that traffic rules and regulations are ignored too often at present, and that the result is traffic jams and frustration. People get very annoyed. As I have said, it is necessary to strike the right balance to maintain public support. People need to see that the measures are improving safety and reliability, and getting rid of traffic jams. They want to see that there is a greater good, and I am confident that that can happen.
  We are committed to sustaining high levels of investment in transport. That is why we are tackling the backlog of maintenance, and investing in major improvements in the network. The Bill will allow us also to manage our roads more effectively, and to make better use of the road space that we have. I am grateful for the broad support that it has received so far, and I commend it to the House.
  4.59 pm
  Mr. Damian Green: I beg to move,
  That this House declines to give a Second Reading to the Traffic Management Bill because it fails to address the most serious reasons for congestion, concentrating instead on street works, which cause only 10 per cent. of delays; diminishes local authority autonomy by giving the Secretary of State reserve powers over local traffic issues; and imposes an over-bureaucratic traffic management system.
  Few of the many Bills produced for this Session will have a more favourable background than this, because there is widespread agreement that we need to ensure that some of the frustrations involved in being a driver in Britain today are tackled. Motorists in Britain are now over-taxed, harassed and too often abused. It is hardly surprising that they feel persecuted by the Government—they are persecuted by the Government.
  By 2000, the amount of revenue raised from motorists rose to £45 billion but this country spends the lowest proportion of motoring taxes on transport of any advanced country. One effect of that is the rise in congestion that the Bill is supposed to tackle. It is at record levels, which is hardly surprising given that the first transport decision taken by the incoming Government in 1997 was to scrap the bulk of the road-building programme. I am pleased that that disastrous decision has been partially reversed in recent years but the effects live on in the clogged streets and trunk roads.
  At the outset of the debate it is important to tackle the thesis that new roads simply fill up and therefore lead to more congestion. The concept that a road that is full of vehicles is symptomatic of a failure in the system is never applied to schools or hospitals. In addition, an underlying point is too often ignored by those who subscribe to the easy thesis that more roads mean more traffic and more traffic inevitably means more congestion. Car travel has increased in recent years not because of any sudden desire among the population to
  48
  make unnecessary journeys but because of an increase in the numbers holding driving licences. In 1976—[Interruption.]
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): Order. The Secretary of State was listened to with great care by the House and the same politeness should be extended to the hon. Member who is now addressing the House.
  Mr. Green: In 1976, fewer than 20 million people held a driving licence, compared to 32 million in 2000. The Secretary of State made the point that that increase may be a sign of underlying economic success. I agree—the underlying economic success in the 1980s and 1990s led to a rise in prosperity. The growth in the number of people holding driving licences has been greatest among women and older people, so those who sneer about the growth in car use are attacking the growth in access to its use among groups who in previous generations did not enjoy that facility. That extension of choice from the few to the many should be welcomed and should not be used as an excuse to make the lives of all motorists a misery.
  It is understandable that Ministers should seek to solve some of the problems caused by inadequate traffic management. No one could object to the principles behind the Bill. On motorways, on trunk roads and on roads in towns and cities, frustrations build up and occasionally boil over because of unnecessary obstruction. We would have welcomed a Bill that introduced practical and sensible measures to keep traffic flowing smoothly. Sadly, this Bill is not it. Instead, it is a wasted opportunity promising more bureaucracy, more confusion and more anger among motorists as they realise the full extent of the disappointment they face. That is why we tabled an amendment designed to encourage the Government to go away and think again. Others agree that this is a rushed and therefore imperfect Bill.
  The Secretary of State covered a number of issues in his wide-ranging introduction. He made interesting points on the successful transport Bills introduced by Conservative Governments, particularly under the aegis of my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope), but one of the more extraordinary things he said was how widespread the welcome for the Bill had been. I think that he has been reading only the old cuttings rather than the recent ones. From his speech, it appears that he spent a large amount of the Christmas and new year period either listening to me on the radio or reading newspaper articles in which I was quoted, but he needs to look at what other people have said since they have looked at the detail of the Bill. Of course, everyone welcomed the principle of the Bill but recently many people have agreed that its preparation has been rushed and that therefore it is deeply imperfect.
  The Transport Select Committee rightly describes as "absurd" the Government's decision to allow only four sitting days between the Bill's publication and this Second Reading debate. The Government have also ignored the fact that the Committee is currently inquiring into one of the Bill's key policies. The AA, moreover, says that it welcomes the Bill in principle, but complains that there has been a paucity of consultation and discussion. It says:
  "There is much that is unsettling, unclear, ambiguous and risky."

  49
  Another affected group is the telecommunications company Thus. Initially, it was "encouraged" by the Government's promises, but it now says the following:
  "Having now seen the Traffic Management Bill we are concerned that these promises amount to little more than rhetoric, and that an opportunity to reform the conduct of all forms of works in the street may be missed."
  The House knows that this Bill was launched on a wave of good will. For Ministers to have assembled such a wide coalition of well-informed grumblers and opponents in such a short time is some achievement. Given that the Minister with responsibility for roads was generous last week in saying that he will look seriously at our proposals to improve the use of speed cameras, I shall reciprocate by maintaining our characteristic stance of being constructive and helpful at all times. However, the Secretary of State was uncharacteristically churlish when he complained that since my hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs. May) took over the environment and transport brief, she has not produced any policies. As I said, last week the Secretary of State's junior Minister welcomed our comments about speed cameras. I hope that that Minister meant what he said, and that he will look constructively at our suggestions. Ministers should adopt the same approach to the Bill: for their own sake—and, more importantly, for the sake of Britain's motorists, cyclists and pedestrians—they should radically change this Bill in several respects; otherwise, they will be seen to have failed, and to have missed their best opportunity to achieve something constructive for Britain's motorists.
  Let me address the individual aspects of the Bill that cause most concern, and which the Secretary of State dealt with. The first is the replacement of traffic police with the Highways Agency's new traffic officers. We all want the police to concentrate on fighting crime—neither side of the House regards that as a controversial issue. It is also true that the police have steadily withdrawn from traffic duties. Between 1997 and 2001, there was a 12 per cent. rise in the volume of traffic and a 12 per cent. decline in the number of police officers assigned to traffic duties, but there are legitimate reasons for thinking that the Bill's proposals go too far. As the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody) pointed out, the new traffic officers will have responsibility for clearing wreckage and obstructions, rather than for ensuring that offences have not been committed. That will have severe practical effects. Often, when a car is pulled over by the police for dangerous driving, further checks are made that reveal wider criminal activity. That option simply will not be available to civilian traffic officers, so we will be making the police less effective than they currently are in their wider crime-fighting duties.
  In response to an intervention, the Secretary of State said that the police would be in charge at all times, but which police? In the Bill's supporting papers, the Government admit—indeed, they boast—that there will be 550 fewer traffic police as a result of these measures. If there are 550 fewer traffic police, they will not be available to perform the duties that the Secretary of State says that such police will still perform. So in his own terms, his attitude to this part of the Bill is, I am afraid, completely incoherent.
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  The AA is right to warn about the need for clear lines of accountability in respect of traffic officers. It says:
  "There must be transparency, and clear lines of reporting".
  It then makes another vital point:
  "There must be correct separation of powers so that consumer protection (e.g. setting fees) is not done by the same body as that which makes and enforces the rules. No sweeping, blanket powers should be given to anyone other than an accountable…authority. The motorist must be a beneficiary; there must be no 'back door' charges or restrictions".
  I hope that the Secretary of State will take that warning into account. If not, he will reinforce the cynicism that many motorists feel about the Government's attitude towards them.
  There is also the practical issue of giving the Highways Agency the powers and the duty to clear away broken-down vehicles and charge drivers for doing so. The Secretary of State rather cavalierly said that the RAC and the AA were needlessly worried, because their fears were not consonant with the Government's purpose. Charging drivers may not be the purpose of the Bill, but it will be the effect, and it is perverse to deny people the opportunity to take out a sensible insurance policy so that expert bodies can remove their cars quickly from the roads for repairs.
  The Secretary of State—unlike many Government Members sitting behind him—is on the wing of the Labour party that purports to believe in the efficiency of markets, so he may agree with me. He will observe that, since the proliferation of breakdown services and therefore greater competition, the efficiency of those services has improved markedly. It is now much rarer than it was 20 or 30 years ago for people to be left for hours by the side of the road: the standard has improved.
  The RAC observes that the Bill will lead to a needless doubling up of resources. Up to 70 or 80 per cent. of its customers call from a mobile phone when they have broken down on the motorway, and a patrol vehicle is dispatched in response. The same applies, of course, to all the other breakdown services. If the Highways Agency is to devote itself to doing the same thing in all circumstances, it will lead to the ludicrous situation of having competing breakdown vans racing along the motorway in an attempt to solve the same problem.
  The problems will be even worse, because the Highways Agency will charge for carrying out its duty. The current charge is £105, so if the Highways Agency gets there first, that is presumably what motorists will have to pay, even if they have already called for their own breakdown service to assist them. It will lead, in the first case, to unfair charging and, as an obvious second-order effect that seems to have been ignored, to a reduction in the number of people signing up for various insurance breakdown services. That will be an inevitable consequence of the Bill. It is surely absurd that the effect of a Bill that is designed to make it easier to remove broken-down vehicles from motorways will actually reduce the number of people offering services to do so.
  Mr. Miller: If I am not a member of a breakdown agency, who should be responsible for removing my vehicle from the road?
  Mr. Green: The Highways Agency, but we want to encourage as many people as possible to take the

  51
  responsibility. [Interruption.] If the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Mr. Miller) does not want to be responsible and fails to take out the policies that millions of other motorists do, I am afraid that he will have to accept the consequences. What he is doing by going through the Lobby later this evening is supporting a system that will encourage fewer people to take responsibility for breakdowns. He should further reflect on the responsibility of his own actions in supporting the Government on this perverse aspect of the Bill.
  Mr. Kidney: The Secretary of State has already given an assurance that the Highways Agency is not seeking to replace the existing market in the recovery of broken-down vehicles, so will the hon. Gentleman join me in a constructive suggestion? The Highways Agency has already taken part in a working party with the police to sort out a protocol about where their boundaries lie. Would it not be helpful if it did the same with the breakdown and recovery services to sort out their boundaries?
  Mr. Green: That would have been sensible and the Government should have arranged for it to happen—the Highways Agency is, after all, an agency of the Department for Transport—before bringing the Bill before the House. I have already mentioned that various bodies, including the organisations that provide rescue services and distinguished groups such as the Transport Committee, have objected to the lack of consultation over the Bill. Indeed, the Select Committee wanted a draft Bill. Where there is a huge interaction between existing private sector and voluntary bodies and the state, consultation over a draft Bill would have been an extremely sensible way to proceed. It might have resulted in a less contentious, less badly drafted and less inadequate Bill. Sadly, that did not happen. I entirely agree that it would be sensible, but I wish that Ministers had thought of it some months ago before putting the Bill before the House.
  I believe, as I suspect the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Kidney) does, that the RAC's concerns are valid, and there are others that Ministers should have considered before introducing this part of the Bill. In particular, the Secretary of State failed to explain what is meant by the further special powers in the Bill, which may be given to traffic officers and enforced through summary offences. He is asking the House to legislate in the dark. The Transport Committee drew attention to those important powers, and the Secretary of State is being slightly insulting to the House in introducing legislation with wide potential implications without a word of explanation during his Second Reading speech.
  The second key section of the Bill deals with the powers of local authorities. Many submissions have been made suggesting that those powers, combined with the paramount duty imposed on local authorities to keep traffic flowing, will have implications for both road safety and the environment. I am sure that hon. Members on both sides will wish to pick up on that, and it will be interesting to hear how the roads Minister—the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the hon.
  52
  Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Mr. Jamieson)—responds. A number of other important issues affect this part of the Bill and part 6, which deals with the civil enforcement of traffic offences. One of the more fascinatingly risible parts of the Secretary of State's speech came when he denied that this is in any way a centralising measure. After all, he plans to tell local authorities in great detail how they should run their traffic management, and he is going to insist that they employ a traffic officer. If that traffic manager does not then do what the Secretary of State wants, the Government will have the power to sack him or her and take over all power themselves. If that is not a centralising measure, I do not know what is. For the right hon. Gentleman to claim that it is not shows admirable chutzpah but a complete departure from common sense.
  I want to deal with the problem of using a combination of cameras and traffic wardens to enforce increasing amounts of traffic law. The Minister made the perfectly true and very sensible point that it was a previous Conservative Government and an extremely successful roads Minister—my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch—who introduced speed cameras. I was fascinated to hear that my hon. Friend's prediction that 2 million extra offences would eventually be caught by speed cameras has finally been proved correct after 12 years. What is interesting, however, is that following that increase of 2 million over 12 years, the Government predict an increase over one year from 2 million to 3 million. The Minister may try to maintain that all speed cameras are in the right place and are all about safety and have nothing to do with raising revenue for the Government. Frankly, that will not wash.
  Mrs. Dunwoody: Does the hon. Gentleman disagree with the criteria used for the placing of speed cameras, which are set up only where there have been at least four injuries within a one-year period? Does he think that they are not acceptable?
  Mr. Green: The criteria are sensible, but there is a lot of evidence that the cameras are not in the right place. [Interruption.] The roads Minister is saying that there is no evidence, but I refer him to a written answer that he gave me. I asked him about the siting of cameras on the five most dangerous roads in this country, and his answer showed that there were no speed cameras on three of them. There is certainly a large amount of prima facie evidence that cameras are not in the right place. We are saying that we need a proper national audit of how many cameras there are and where they are. One of the most extraordinary written answers that the roads Minister has been forced to give me over the past couple of weeks is that the Government do not know how many cameras there are. Presumably he does not know where they are either, so when the Government claim that every camera is in the right place and that their siting is all about road safety rather than about raising revenue for the Chancellor, they simply cannot be telling the truth.
  Mr. Brian H. Donohoe: Does that mean that the Opposition accept the present criteria for placing cameras?
  Mr. Green: We certainly need some criteria and it would be sensible to start with the most dangerous areas

  53
  and roll out speed cameras from there. Many people believe, and they appear to have some evidence behind them, that speed cameras are not in the right places—
  Mr. Miller: Give an example.
  Mr. Green: I have just given an example, if the hon. Gentleman cared to listen. I pointed out the answer given by the Under-Secretary, which suggested that of the five most dangerous roads in the country, three do not have a single camera.
  Mr. Miller: That is not a real example.
  Mr. Green: I suggest that he takes that point up with his Front-Bench colleagues, because it is their example.
  Mr. Redwood: My hon. Friend has given good examples of dangerous roads where cameras should be placed, and I could take the Secretary of State to many roads that are relatively safe but which have cameras to collect money from people who judge that they can go faster than the recommended or compulsory speed limit. Examples include the A316 and M4 into London, which have money-raising cameras on straight stretches of dual or treble carriageway, where there is little danger and no accidents.
  Mr. Green: My right hon. Friend is right, and I know that many hon. Members on both sides of the House have similar examples. Since I have started raising the issue of speed cameras, where they are sited and whether we need a national audit of them, my e-mail has rarely stopped pinging with further examples.
  Mr. Miller: I agree with the hon. Gentleman about the need for cameras on the dangerous roads that he mentions, but will he now give the House an example of a camera that is wrongly sited?
  Mr. Green: The hon. Gentleman appears not to be listening to the debate. My right hon. Friend has just given several examples. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman is a great reader of the News of the World, but he may have seen its report this Sunday on the removal of a camera.
  Mr. Miller: Has the hon. Gentleman got an example?
  Mr. Green: We have just been offered three examples. Increasing numbers of respectable citizens reckon that cameras are not used for the proper purpose of making our roads safer and less congested, but are designed to take more and more money out of the pockets of motorists and put it into the pockets of the Chancellor. The problem with the Bill, and the increasing reliance on cameras to police the new range of offences that will result, is that it will reinforce that cynicism.
  Mr. Simon Thomas: The hon. Gentleman is giving the most explicit explanation that I have heard from the Conservatives of their opposition to the current use of speed cameras. Does he agree that speed cameras are placed on roads with a combination of a history of serious accidents and evidence of motorists speeding—I think that the figure is 25 per cent.—according to the
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  decision of a local speed camera partnership? He mentioned the five most dangerous roads in the United Kingdom, one of which runs through my constituency. However, the A44 from Llangurig to Aberystwyth is dangerous because of its tortuous, stagecoach nature, not because of speed. It is wrong to mix up the two. We should consider speed cameras in terms of how they control speed, and we should consider dangerous roads in terms of a range of other factors.
  Mr. Green: That is right. My objection to the proliferation of speed cameras in some areas is the suggestion that speed is the only danger. Roads that may be dangerous for other reasons do not receive the requisite degree of traffic policing. One of the effects of the obsession with cameras is a reduction in the number of traffic police, who are the only people who will be effective on roads such as the one that the hon. Gentleman has just mentioned. If we are obsessed with cameras to the exclusion of all other enforcement methods for safer driving, we will make some roads more dangerous than they need to be. The hon. Gentleman's example illustrates perfectly what is wrong with an over-reliance on cameras.
  The central problem with the Bill is that the increasing reliance on cameras will remove the element of common sense. Of course, the vast majority of people who park in bus lanes or obstruct traffic in yellow boxes are behaving illegally and should be punished. However, there are exceptions and special circumstances that a trained police officer would recognise and be able to exercise judgment about, which a camera cannot do. In those cases, a real sense of grievance would be created that would further damage relations between the motorist and law enforcement agencies.
  John Mann: I represent a Nottingham constituency that would be the hon. Gentleman's ideal as until last month there were no speed cameras in the jurisdiction of Nottinghamshire county council. There have been no fatal accidents on the A638 at Scrooby in my constituency, so does he agree that the best way to control speed at Scrooby and the neighbouring village of Barnby Moor is through the occasional use of a speed camera operated by a police officer—the situation that has prevailed for the past 20 years—or does he agree with me and about 90 per cent. of the residents of those villages that the best way to control speed there would be for the county council to put in a speed camera?
  Mr. Green: If the system has worked successfully for 20 years, there is clearly a sensible debate to be held about whether it is effective. The hon. Gentleman fails to address the central point, however. We all agree that speed cameras are useful and necessary in some areas, but an increasing number of people do not agree that the current use of such cameras is the most effective way of dealing with the problem. One reason for people's cynicism is that the Chancellor of the Exchequer creams off about £17 million a year—I think that was the figure given by the Government last week. That amount goes straight to the coffers of the Exchequer. That is why people are cynical.
  For the Secretary of State to stand at the Dispatch Box and tell us that the measure has nothing to do with raising money is absurd. It is to do with raising money.

  55
  Money is raised and passed over to the Exchequer; it is not spent on road safety or road improvements, for example on roads that may be unsafe even though they are not especially subject to high speeds. Such measures would be a much better use of the money and would reduce the cynicism that over-reliance on cameras has induced among many motorists.
  The problem is that the Government propose to increase their reliance on cameras and on automatic penalties. I am astonished that they are doing that rather than rowing back in the face of the overwhelming public view that speed cameras have been over-used.
  Another point to be considered is the Government's desire to remove the police as much as possible from dealing with traffic offences. Everyone wants the police to spend their time fighting crime, but the way to do that is to get them out of the stations, away from filling out forms in triplicate to prove that they are hitting the latest centrally imposed targets. That would allow them to fight crime. In terms of traffic duties, a police officer who pulls over a dangerous driver often exposes other crimes. The Government's proposals would remove the ability of the police to do that, which would be a seriously dangerous development.
  Simon Hughes: Can the hon. Gentleman tell the House how many additional police officers he believes should be designated as traffic police and what the costs will be?
  Mr. Green: No, I cannot. It would be absurd for me to attempt to do so in terms of the detailed policies on law and order that we shall adopt in our manifesto for the next general election. I should have thought that the hon. Gentleman would agree that if the trend towards the removal of traffic police continues, there will be no traffic police, we shall no longer rely on the police for such duties and that will be a damaging development both for law and order in general and for traffic management. He said that he welcomed the Bill, but as it will bring about a reduction of 550 in the number of police officers I hope that he will join us in the Lobby and vote for our amendment. If he wants traffic police, he needs to vote for the amendment to translate his words into parliamentary action so I shall be interested to see what he does at the end of the debate.
  Mr. Darling: Will the hon. Gentleman tell me whether Mr. Steve Norris is wrong when he says that
  "existing camera technology and traffic wardens"
  should
  "enforce road regulations and penalty notices"?
  Mr. Green: That arrangement was introduced for existing static offences by my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch. That seems perfectly sensible, but the Secretary of State refuses to accept that ever-increasing extension of the powers of those non-police people and their reliance on camera technology has now hit the buffers. Steve Norris did not say that, but the Secretary of State apparently believes that he did.
  This is a very serious issue, but the Government do not seem to think that it is. They seem to think that they can take away all traffic police and that no damage will
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  be done to traffic policing or to policing generally. That is the Bill's effect. It is clear that Labour Back Benchers have not bothered to read the background papers. The Government do not just admit that there will be 550 fewer traffic police officers dealing with traffic; they boast about that fact. That reduction may well prove to be damaging.
  The final big area for the Bill is the vexed subject of street works. Of all the issues covered, that should have been the one about which it was easiest to build a consensus. Everyone who drives or travels on public transport has a tale of roads being dug up, repaired and dug up again the following week. So it is particularly frustrating that the opportunity to promote a complete solution to that problem has been missed.
  The proposals in the Bill concentrate purely on the utilities, although the Secretary of State will know that the most important thing is to ensure not just that all the utilities are co-ordinated but that they are co-ordinated with all the public sector works as well. That is not impossible. He has mentioned New York, but he need not go that far; such things are done in Scotland. Everyone who I have spoken to commends the Susiephone system and says that it works extremely well in Scotland. It seems absurd that he has not tried to import that system from Scotland and that, instead, he has chosen to go down a different route that will be less effective.
  In the run-up to the Bill, the Secretary of State talked rather grandly about the holistic approach to street works. Unfortunately, he has failed his own test: the Bill does not represent a holistic approach, so it misses its biggest target. It also seems to be fairly cavalier about relying on evidence. The new permit scheme that he wants to introduce is effectively a lane-rental scheme, and that idea has its attractions—I dare say that he has some Steve Norris quotes about the attractions of lane rental—but surely a sensible Government would wait to see the impact of their own pilot scheme before introducing country-wide legislation. The Government have appointed consultants to look at their pilot scheme, and the results are, surprisingly, not very encouraging. The Halcrow report says:
  "There is little evidence that adoption of lane rental has effected much further improvement in the average duration of works.
  The major utilities operating in Camden and Middlesbrough"—
  where those pilots schemes operate—
  "confirm that they have not altered their practices as a result of the introduction of the pilot schemes.
  The statutory undertakers have indicated to us that they do not intend to introduce any changes to working practices as a result of the introduction of the Lane Rental pilot schemes".
  As I say, I was surprised when I read that and I dare say that the Secretary of State was surprised when he read that that was a result of the pilot schemes, but it seems particularly extraordinary to set up a couple of pilot schemes, ask people to investigate them and go ahead regardless of the evidence.
  Again, I wish that the Secretary of State had carried out more consultation and thought more carefully about the proposals before introducing them. That thread runs through the Bill. Despite the length of time that the Government have spent preparing the Bill, it has ended up being a rushed, imperfect job, on which

  57
  they have not done enough consultation. At best, that part of the Bill is premature; at worst, it will commit local authorities to a line of action that will not solve the underlying problems.
  Large parts of a Bill that ought to be uncontroversial are desperately deficient. Those who should have been properly consulted have not been properly consulted: the Transport Committee, the motoring organisations and the utilities have all been ignored. The Bill is made worse by the Government's refusal to listen to any view but their own. Motorists in this country deserve a break. The Bill was supposed to lead to traffic flowing more smoothly to the benefit of the motorist and the environment. It fails in that central and vital purpose, which is why I commend our amendment to the House.
  5.34 pm
  Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody: Four times more people are killed on the roads in this country every year than are victims of murder. I should have thought that that fact would make the House of Commons think quite seriously about any legislation that affects either road policing or the control of our traffic, yet we do not include the policing of roads in our strategic objectives for the police. There has been a consistent decline in the number of specialist police who are either trained to understand the problems of traffic or who are consistently given that role. As chief constables do not have a specific responsibility to maintain traffic police, they do not do so. The evidence of Her Majesty's inspector was that forces clearly regarded both the commitment of men and vehicles to road policing as being a peripheral duty from which people could be readily reallocated—a startling fact of which we should take note.
  At the risk of upsetting those on the Government Front Bench, I must say that I believe that when we discuss an important change in the legislation that affects roads and traffic we should take account of certain things. We must be sure in our own minds what we want to do. If we want the highways authority to be the Highways Agency and to have the core task of ensuring that traffic moves more readily, let us say so and make that clear, but when we are introducing new powers let us also consider the implications of what we are doing.
  The Bill was introduced to the House of Commons on only Thursday 11 December and printed the day after, and it should be borne in mind that the House rose on 18 December. The Government know that my Committee is looking at traffic enforcement and that we have done some work on it, but this is an ideal subject for pre-legislative scrutiny, not simply because it is a complex subject but because it is one on which people will want to give evidence. Hon. Members on both sides of the House have clearly demonstrated the prejudices that people have about traffic. We would like a little detailed information that is based on fact. If we cannot even agree on whether speed cameras are being placed according to the criteria set down, how can we possibly have a sensible debate in the Chamber about the legislation that we are framing?
  I have the greatest regard for the Secretary of State, but I regret that the Bill has been introduced so rapidly. Unlike some members of my own party, I do not have
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  this great commitment and warmth towards ideas that were introduced by previous Conservative Governments. I know that that shows a want of something on my part, but it is why I am sitting on the Government Benches, not on the Opposition Benches.
  The Bill has all sorts of implications far beyond simply organising the speedy movement of cars along a motorway. First, has the House considered the status of this new group of people, the traffic officers? Will they be trained in the same way as we train police officers, and, if not, at what point will they decide, when an accident or an incident has occurred, that the movement of various bits of evidence from the carriageway or the permission to resume the movement of cars will not have a deleterious effect on the collection of evidence?
  We are told that the police will retain final responsibility, but can we be sure that traffic officers will get to the scene first? If so, what will the traffic officers do that police officers do not already do? The police ensure that the carriageway is reopened once it is safe to do so and proper action has been taken in relation to the incident.
  It is terribly important that we know what extra powers can be given by order to the traffic police. It is obvious, because it is in the Bill, that if the Secretary of State decides in future that those responsibilities should be devolved to a private contractor, there is nothing to stop the contractor controlling and instructing the traffic police, which will have great implications for people involved in traffic incidents. It is clear from the evidence that the Select Committee on Transport took from families who had suffered bereavements as a result of traffic accidents that the police officer's initial decision at the scene can determine the conduct of a case—not just whether the motorist should be prosecuted, but the way in which the prosecution is conducted and its implications for the victim's family. That is an important responsibility, and it should not be taken lightly.
  It is important that we know what the relationship between traffic managers and traffic officers will be. Traffic managers can be appointed by local authorities, but can also be imposed by the Department for Transport, so it would be helpful to know their direct responsibilities, to whom they are answerable, the terms under which they operate and the way in which they intend to proceed. Special powers in clause 5 allow traffic officers to maintain or improve the movement of traffic and prevent or reduce
  "the effect of anything causing (or which has the potential to cause) congestion".
  They can also be used to avoid danger to persons—that is well down the list of duties—and prevent damage to anything on or near a road
  "for a purpose incidental to any of those purposes."
  Those powers are so general as to be worrying, and I would like more precision.
  The Secretary of State will know that in the Session 2002–03 my Committee undertook a great deal of work on a related subject. During that period, the Government announced that they intended to appoint traffic tsars and make provision for further controls over street works. However, we have been told today that only a quarter of incidents cause congestion. In other words, three quarters of the problems that we encounter

  59
  do not arise from circumstances that the Bill is supposed to address. It would therefore be helpful if the Bill's intentions were spelt out in more detail and its implications made clearer. Why does the Secretary of State not have a responsibility to ensure completely safe conduct? Why can there not be a commitment in the Bill saying that his first responsibility is the safety of people travelling on our roads. It is a simple commitment, but it would reassure people. In this country, we do a great deal to try to cut the number of deaths and injuries, but the reality is that we still kill thousands of people every year. Although the figures are dropping, they are not dropping nearly far enough, and they represent something that destroys people who are involved in such incidents.
  I am concerned about the fact that we are creating a structure with a narrow base. Everybody would cheerfully accept the theory that the work of traffic wardens in towns should be expanded. No one can object to the principle—[Interruption.] I detect a certain note of dissent, but I think that most people would accept that view—
  Mr. Stringer: It is only the Manchester experience.
  Mrs. Dunwoody: Luckily, I cannot always say that I have had a Manchester experience.
  Most people would accept that the work of traffic wardens is meant to improve quality of life and the movement of traffic in towns, but we are not doing something as simple as giving extra powers to an existing work force; we are looking to create an entirely new group with very narrow terms of reference.
  I know that many people will highlight aspects of the Bill that concern them, but I want to ask one or two questions before I sit down. If a considerable number of police officers are to be released by the creation of traffic officers, will those policemen retain their expertise? Will they still have a responsibility for traffic and be able to fulfil the task that they currently fulfil in preparing for prosecutions where there has been a criminal act or an incident of some importance? If not, will they be absorbed by the police force and will that work be left almost entirely to people who are not trained police officers? Will the police forces themselves suffer loss of revenue from the arrangements that are going to be made? If so, how will it be replaced?
  Will the public as a whole find that people whom they do not recognise as trained police officers are taking decisions that can have an immediate effect, perhaps on their full licence or livelihood? How long do we imagine that that will be acceptable? We have only to see what has happened in relation to speed cameras and to consider the artificial and frighteningly unbalanced campaign that has been built up by some tabloids about the use of cameras to realise that, in a very short time, people would be rampaging through the pages of our newspapers complaining bitterly that those administering traffic law were neither police officers nor properly trained. That is what the Bill proposes.
  On the whole, the House of Commons makes a fool of itself when it rushes things, does not take time, programmes every Bill and pushes legislation through
  60
  irrespective of the amount of consideration that it has given to the measure's wording. This matter cannot be dealt with lightly. The Bill introduces a major change; we are creating for the first time almost since the time of Robert Peel a new group of officers who are not police officers, town beadles or collectors of little bits of paper to stick on to parked motor cars, but a group of people who will have the power to take major decisions that could enable those who have been involved in serious accidents to escape prosecution or large numbers of people who consider that they have been hard done by to find that they have no recourse to any sort of appeal. Above all, we could see a situation in which the general public begin to question the common sense of the House of Commons. When that happens, frankly, we are all at risk.
  5.48 pm
  John Thurso: I wonder whether I might ask your advice, Mr. Deputy Speaker, in respect of a procedural point before I come to my comments on the Bill. I raise this point having listened to the very powerful contribution of the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody) and to other contributions, and having received last-minute advice from my hon. Friend the Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Simon Hughes). I understand that there exists a Special Standing Committee that could consider the Bill and take evidence. May I ask you, therefore, to reflect on whether at this late stage you might accept or consider accepting a manuscript amendment for the committal of the Bill to a Special Standing Committee, given that the period between publication and Second Reading has been so short? I shall leave that thought with you.
  There is much in the Bill to commend. In giving it a broad welcome, however, I have to say that at first sight it is a rather modest measure on a very important subject, and that it is perhaps more noteworthy for what is left out than for what it includes. Although its central thrust of tackling congestion on our roads cannot be argued with, and many of its objectives are perfectly acceptable—even laudable—it has serious omissions, of which I should like to mention two. First, as the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich said, there is no mention of road safety in relation to the duties of traffic officers or the network management of local traffic authorities. When that was raised with the Secretary of State, he replied that the Government did not want to put too many duties on to traffic officers; yet clause 1(2) stipulates precisely one duty, and it would be very simple to add after paragraphs (a) and (b) a paragraph (c) stating that they should have regard to road safety in performing their duties.
  Secondly, the Bill omits any mention of the environmental impact of what traffic managers may or may not do and the way in which the networks are managed. Again, it would be simple to put that duty into the Bill to enable them to take account of that important aspect.
  Notwithstanding those clear defects, which my hon. Friends and I will seek to amend, and our considerable concern about many details that I shall touch on later, which we shall also seek to amend, we will, in the light of the Bill's basic objectives, support it on Second Reading.

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  I want to make two general criticisms of the Bill. First, it is riddled with clauses that permit future actions and decisions—I believe they are called Henry VIII Clauses—and much of it can be wholly changed by subsequent regulations. That desire to leave alternate options open in every part suggests either that the Government have not actively thought through in sufficient depth what they wish to achieve or that they do not have sufficient confidence in the proposals as currently drafted. Moreover, there is much reference to the guidance notes that are to be issued at a later stage in relation to several clauses. That makes it difficult to know exactly what will be put into practice. Will the Government consider publishing those guidance notes in draft before the detailed consideration of the Bill is complete in order to give the House some idea of their impact and the way in which the Government's thinking is going?
  Secondly, many of the clauses are drafted in such a way that they are open to a variety of interpretations. Indeed, without the explanatory notes—I was grateful to have the notes so that I could understand what the Government were driving at—it would be difficult to know precisely what the Government intend to achieve. One example is clause 2(6), which appears to suggest that if an individual who has been specified in subsection (1)(b) as an authoriser of traffic officers were to move on or to lose his or her job, the traffic officer who has been authorised would automatically lose their job, too. Perhaps that is what the Government intend, but it seems perverse, to say the least. There are many other such examples.
  The creation of a special force of traffic officers to deal with general traffic issues that occupy considerable amounts of police time is a sensible concept that we support. However, that must lead not to a reduction in the policing of our roads, but rather to more effective policing by allowing the road traffic police who are liberated from more mundane duties to concentrate on those who are involved in serious road crime or serious road traffic accidents. The reduction of police numbers has direct consequences for road safety. According to the Government's own figures, in the three years from 1999 there were 8 per cent. fewer police patrolling our roads in England as a whole, while the figure for London, so I have been told, is nearer to 25 per cent. in the same period. In that same period, road deaths increased. It is therefore essential that officers who are freed from routine duties that are to be covered by traffic officers can concentrate on serious road crime. The Bill's only reference to road safety in respect of traffic officers is in clause 5(3); and it is very small. Given the cost of road traffic accidents in lives and money, such officers should have a general duty to have regard to road safety.
  The Bill is very vague about how traffic officers will operate. For example, what training will they have? Will they be appointed, given a day's induction, and let loose on a "fire and forget" basis; or will they have some proper formal training? If they are to have such training, why cannot that be specified in order to give us some assurance on how they will perform their duties?
  Clause 8, which deals with further special powers, is unnecessary and potentially dangerous. Surely the Government should decide what they want in the way of powers and include them in the Bill instead of inserting a clause that permits any changes at a later date.
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  The principle of network management by local traffic authorities is perfectly sound, as is the appointment of traffic managers; but, again, the network management duty makes no mention of road safety. Moreover, clause 16(2) could be interpreted in the opposite direction as requiring the removal of, or prohibition of the introduction of, such things as home zones and traffic calming measures. I cannot believe that that is what the Government actually intend.
  Mr. Redwood: The hon. Gentleman is inadvertently misleading us. The Bill makes it very clear that it is a duty of a traffic officer to avoid
  "danger to persons or other traffic using such a road"
  and there are similar caveats in the local authority provisions. He should read the Bill before commenting on it.
  John Thurso: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, but I have read the Bill, as he will see from my reference to the clause. My point is that the Bill does not include a general duty for traffic managers to undertake such action.
  It would be helpful if the guidance notes that are mentioned in clause 18 were available in draft, which would give us some idea of what the Government have in mind.
  I now come to the provisions dealing with interventions and the appointment of road traffic directors—or tsars. Not content with tsars, we now seem to have super-tsars. It says something about the Bill when this part of it says more about defining how interventions will be dealt with than about the general duties of network managers. The fact that there are whole clauses on interventions confirms the Government's desire to dictate from the centre. There is no need for traffic directors, and we should strangle them immediately by deleting those clauses.
  Under the pernicious clause 30, every time central Government choose to interfere by installing a super-tsar, the poor local authority—and even poorer local taxpayer—has to pick up the financial burden. I see no merit whatsoever in traffic directors, and I should like that part of the Bill to be removed.
  Parts 3 and 4 touch on permit schemes and street works. It is obvious that good co-ordination of street and roadworks is a major factor in reducing congestion. The question therefore is whether the permit scheme envisaged in the Bill and the amendments to the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991 will achieve that objective. Permit schemes can work. They do in other countries. They work in Scotland, as has been pointed out, and they work in New York, as the Secretary of State mentioned. Any fair scheme should work in this country.
  I remain to be convinced that, as currently envisaged, the scheme in the Bill would not simply increase costs and bureaucracy without tangible result. In particular, the Government must make it clear that any fees charged should be fair and designed only to recoup reasonable costs. Fees must not become another backdoor tax.
  I do not see that the changes envisaged in part 4 add much to the 1991 Act, which it amends. That will need careful consideration in Committee. I am particularly

  63
  concerned about the resurfacing provisions and the ability to charge retrospectively for resurfacing. That has the potential to create a nightmare of contingent liabilities on utility company balance sheets. The temptation to use clause 54, which becomes new section 73D of the 1991 Act, as a revenue-raiser for authorities may prove overwhelming. That could add considerably to costs for utilities, for little or no real gain. Indeed, much of the resurfacing provisions is so worded as to give rise to the suspicion that they are inspired by the desire to raise revenue, more than anything else.
  Mr. David Drew: The Bill has much to commend it, although I agree with the hon. Gentleman about the need to emphasise road safety. As someone who cycles regularly, including this morning at 7.15, I know that it is a major problem for cyclists when a road surface has deteriorated and a trench has been put along it. It is frustrating to know that nobody will do anything about that under current legislation. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the Bill at least offers the possibility that where the standard of work has deteriorated, something will be done about it by the local authority, either by carrying out the work itself or by drawing the money back from the original undertaker?
  John Thurso: As an occasional cyclist, I concur with the hon. Gentleman that holes in the road and troughs that have been badly filled are a nuisance. The point that I am addressing is not that the road should be resurfaced, but the way in which the Bill sets out to charge utilities or others that have dug up the road in the past, rather than at the time. In terms of balance sheet accounting, the utility will have to try to guesstimate the liability it may be asked to pay in the future, and carry that through its balance sheet year. That is an immensely complicated way of dealing with charging for the problem.
  I am addressing not the need to resurface, but the manner in which authorities may retrospectively charge, and the fact that there is no straightforward fee. There is a provision in the Bill that would allow the utility to buy its way out by making an upfront payment. My suspicion is that that may well be the option that the utility chooses, in order to have a clean balance sheet at the year-end. That will then become the norm and it will become revenue-raising in excess of what is required, rather than raising the revenue necessary to resurface the road.
  Mr. Drew: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way again. Is not the problem that too often the answer is to backfill—to put a trench in—rather than to resurface the road? That is a false economy. We all accept that those trenches will result in the road quality deteriorating much more quickly than if it had been resurfaced. I hope the Bill will make resurfacing the first response, not the last one.
  John Thurso: I understand the point that the hon. Gentleman is trying to make, but I do not believe it is correct that installing a trench may later result in the utility incurring a cost that is unquantified and that it does not know about for some time into the future. I am
  64
  speaking of the mechanics of how that could be done. It is evidence that the Bill could usefully have undergone pre-legislative scrutiny—a point well made by other hon. Members. That is the sort of technical detail that requires to be fleshed out, which is why a Special Standing Committee might be the way forward.
  I understand that approximately half of all roadworks are attributable to utility companies, but the other half are attributable to road authorities. Would it not be more appropriate that there should be similar policing of road authorities as is proposed for the utility companies? It seems rather unfair that the entire burden should be imposed on the utility companies, and not on all the others that may be digging up the road.
  As my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. Allan) pointed out, IT companies need a different type of access to roads from that required by traditional utilities. I hope the Government will consider those genuine differences and make sure that they are provided for as the Bill goes along.
  Mr. Paul Tyler: My hon. Friend touches on a sore subject as far as Cornwall is concerned. IT contractors were allowed, one after another, as the Minister knows, to dig up major roads, with no attempt at co-ordination or liaison between them. They have all admitted to me and to other hon. Members that had the Government of the day persuaded them to do so, they would all have taken the same trench and the same channelling.
  John Thurso: My hon. Friend makes a valid point.
  Broadly, the provisions in part 5 for better strategic roads in London are extremely sensible. I see that my hon. Friend the Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey is attempting to catch Madam Deputy Speaker's eye, so I shall leave it to him to comment on that, for whatever reason he may have for doing that. The one point that I will make is that for London particularly, traffic directors make no sense whatever.
  In part 6, there are some sensible provisions regarding the change to civil penalties, but one extremely worrying concept, which has already been raised—The requirement on traffic wardens and others to police moving offences, especially in respect of box junction offences. I have no problem with the use of cameras to police box junctions, bus lanes and so on. At least the camera provides pretty clear and incontrovertible evidence that can be examined and challenged. Those are important offences and, as we all know from driving around in London, unclogging box junctions will make a tremendous difference. However, to ask one single traffic warden to make a snap judgment, possibly, on what may be a borderline infringement, is surely a recipe for disaster. It does nothing for congestion, motorists, pedestrians or traffic wardens, and in all probability it will prove unworkable. I hope very much that the Government will look again at that idea.
  As I said at the beginning, there is much that the Bill seeks to achieve that is laudable, hence our support on Second Reading. Equally, there is much in the detail, some of which I have outlined, that not only can be criticised, but that requires careful scrutiny. I hope the Government will listen to the constructive suggestions

  65
  that we will put forward, but ultimately this is a short-term Bill that deals only with the symptoms of congestion, not the causes. Until we have a safe, reliable, affordable public transport system and an effective road-charging scheme, we will still only be tinkering at the margins. This is a modest little Bill that has shown, on examination, that it has much to be modest about.
  6.9 pm
  Mrs. Jackie Lawrence: May I say how pleased I am to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody), whose experience in the House and whose knowledge as Chairman of the Transport Committee were so evident in her speech? Were it not for the fact that debates in this place are planned according to time, I would be satisfied that all the relevant questions had been covered, at least in part, in her speech.
  In principle, there is much to be welcomed in the Bill. Unfortunately, the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr. Thomas) has left the Chamber. I am pleased that the proposals cover both England and Wales, because transport, like pollution, does not respect boundaries, and an event or problem can have an impact on areas a great distance away. As a Welsh MP who travels 250 miles to Westminster every week, I can testify to that personally.
  The declared aim of the Bill is to reduce congestion on Britain's roads, and that is vital for economic reasons. Like other speakers, I have some questions about road safety issues. I caught the train to get here this morning, and the Minister will be pleased to hear that it was on time. My journey bore no resemblance to those described in today's Evening Standard. I sometimes drive here, and the main part of my route is on the M4. Congestion along the eastern part of the motorway often affects the length and nature of my journey between here and Wales—particularly congestion between Heathrow airport and Reading and in central London. Such congestion can add between an hour and a half and two hours to an already lengthy journey. The Severn bridge is halfway between London and my constituency, but the area that has the greatest impact on the overall length of my journey is inevitably the busy section between Swindon and London. I am tempted to say that that demonstrates the need to rise above the parochial view that Welsh transport problems can be solved entirely in Wales, but I shall avoid doing so.
  I welcome the Government's moves to regulate road works and create a mechanism whereby traffic can be kept flowing as freely as possible, but I am curious that clause 20 raises the prospect of failing traffic authorities facing an intervention notice. That point has not been mentioned in detail. The Bill contains no definition of what would constitute failure, and I would add that to the list of points that have been made by my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich.
  Tackling congestion and keeping traffic moving is important to individuals such as myself who frequently face long journeys. However, it is even more important for UK business and productivity generally. The Freight Transport Association estimates that road congestion costs the UK economy more than £20 billion a year, which is the equivalent of £450 for every man, woman and child in this country. Like many statistics, that
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  might not mean much to the ordinary listener until put into context. For example, one of the major employers in my constituency—if not the single largest direct employer in our county—is a haulage company called Mansell Davies. It employs more than 200 local people in an area in which companies of such size are rare. It is a general haulier, but it does a great deal of transportation work for the local agricultural industry. In west Wales, agriculture and tourism form a major part of the economy.
  It is not difficult to see why tackling congestion on the UK's roads is so important to companies such as Mansell Davies. It is already a considerable distance from markets, and controls on drivers' hours and unexpected delays as a result of congestion can have a big effect on its ability to transport perishable goods and on its running costs. I spoke today to the company's managing director, who raised the issue of the criminal element of road traffic accidents, and the fact that motorway accidents are increasingly causing delays of four or five hours, which can knock the company's schedule out completely and considerably increase its running costs. Pembrokeshire values that company as one of its major employers, and we need to act to keep it competitive.
  Tourism also forms a major element of our economy. The Bill will enable local authorities in areas such as mine to plan roadworks so that they do not have the adverse impact on our tourism industry that we so often see at the moment. Unfortunately, this country does not have good weather for the majority of the year, and in Pembrokeshire, all the utility companies dig up the roads during the summer months, which hinders free movement and can put many tourists off.
  Work on the M4 should be co-ordinated with work in the Severn rail tunnel. Such work projects have conflicted on days on which rugby matches have been held, which has made getting in and out of Wales extremely difficult at peak times. I hope that the Minister will take on board the need not only to consider the strategic managing of roadworks but to link it to major rail works in Wales.
  Mr. Parmjit Dhanda: Does my hon. Friend agree that part of the difficulty on major match days—whether that involves FA cup finals or rugby matches—has been that the rail service has sometimes not been running into Cardiff? That has caused problems getting in and out on the M4.
  Mrs. Lawrence: My hon. Friend is correct. The extra pressures placed on the Millennium stadium caused by Wembley being non-operational have created further problems. His question endorses my point that we need to co-ordinate strategic work on roads and rail to ensure a means of getting traffic through, one way or another.
  I recently saw an example of co-ordination and licensing in Copenhagen, where tram lines run through the centre of the city. The tram system is very efficient and serves the city well. Work on the tram lines and the roads is carried out overnight. It starts after dark and is finished, or at least put into abeyance, by 7 am to allow normal daytime traffic to proceed.
  Inward investment is also important to Pembrokeshire, and traffic congestion is a major block to encouraging such investment west of the M4 corridor.

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  It is an acknowledged fact that roads in Wales are generally much clearer than those in England, but what happens in England has a direct impact on our ability to attract companies into our region and to keep our industry competitive. Research by the Welsh Development Agency has shown that companies locating in Wales generally require a journey time of not more than two hours from their point of arrival in the UK. For example, an American company whose senior staff fly into Heathrow will not wish them to travel for more than two hours to reach their UK base. The increasing role and reputation of Cardiff international airport is tackling that issue to some degree, but this demonstrates how important it is that we tackle road congestion if we are to continue to disperse jobs throughout the UK as a whole. The Bill's measures to take a strategic look at the road network and manage programmed highway events is therefore very welcome.
  As well as the strategic highway considerations, there are other important measures in the Bill that I believe need further explanation. One that has already been mentioned is the role of the new uniformed on-road traffic officers. These officers will be given powers to stop or direct traffic, and to place temporary road signs. However, clause 8 refers to the granting of further special powers to them. It would be beneficial to the debate if the Minister would expand on those special powers now, rather than waiting until the Bill is in Committee.
  The Secretary of State mentioned the ability for local authorities to handle offences such as blocking box junctions. Does that mean that local authorities will be given the power to prevent the blocking of dropped kerbs, which are used by wheelchairs? That is a tremendous problem. Are other things involved, such as allowing powered two-wheel vehicles to use bus lanes in towns or other areas under local authority jurisdiction? When bicycle riders became permitted to use bus lanes there was, I believe, a drop of about 28 per cent. in accidents involving cyclists. I hope that a similar move for powered two-wheelers would have a similar road safety impact.
  The question marks over the uniformed on-road traffic officers relate to whether they will take on some duties that are undertaken by police in tackling dangerous driving. if they are to do so, what precise powers does the Minister envisage them having, and does he accept that there will need to be clear lines of demarcation between their duties and police duties? Those question marks are perhaps best outlined in the document published by the Select Committee on 17 December, immediately before the recess.
  I am not one of those who decry the increasing use of speed cameras on UK roads—nor do I think that enforcement means either police or cameras, because the two should complement each other. Figures that I have obtained from the Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety show clearly that speed cameras have proved to be an extremely successful road safety tool. Those figures demolish the myths put out by certain elements of the press recently, and show that deaths and serious injuries have been reduced by over one third at speed camera sites.
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  Among the myths is the claim by Autocar magazine that speed cameras are not sited on the most dangerous roads, and also that they are not popular. The hon. Member for Ceredigion mentioned the need to consider other factors in judging which are the most dangerous roads, and criteria for placement have to be based on accident figures plus figures demonstrating that surveys have shown that 20 per cent. of drivers on the stretch of road in question are exceeding the speed limit. I know that to be a fact because Pembrokeshire county council has been assiduous about it. Some communities are frustrated that this should be so.
  I would like to tell Autocar magazine and anyone else who doubts the effectiveness of speed cameras that communities in my constituency would be very grateful to have speed cameras in their midst. It is perhaps more accurate to say that, in general, speed cameras are unpopular among those who have little regard for the rule of law and the welfare of people living in communities affected by busy roads.
  There is one more myth from Autocar—the claim that
  "Cameras have contributed to a fall in traffic policing".
  That is a serious issue and it has been raised.
  Regrettably, Home Office figures show that there has been an overall UK-wide reduction in the number of designated traffic police. Looking back to 1966, traffic-trained officers made up 15 to 20 per cent. of constable strength, but in 1998 that figure was 7 per cent. of force strength. PACT's view is that there are two contributory factors to that. One is that fixed speed cameras reduce the speed limit enforcement burden on officers with the result that reduced officer time is spent on dealing with collisions and their aftermath. The second is the finding of the report "Road Policing and Traffic 1998", produced by the inspectorate of constabulary, that the fall in the number of designated traffic officers is due partly to the increasing demands of more high-profile policing and partly to a failure to include road traffic enforcement as a "key priority" for policing. Perhaps we should take that up with the Home Office, although again the matter was covered adequately by my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich. There should be a link between traffic policing and the Department for Transport: it should not be left entirely with the Home Office.
  Mr. Drew: Obviously this is a crucial part of the legislation, but does my hon. Friend agree that, in a sense, the debate runs parallel to what the public want, which is visible policing? However, we all know—I am sure that we all go out with our police from time to time—that visible policing conflicts with effective policing. The reality of the modern world is that the most effective policing is based on intelligence. In considering such an example, should we not acknowledge that the most effective policing involves looking out for those motorists who are the most dangerous? That could involve staking out their homes and looking out for whether they are drinking and driving. So we are not going to get a real picture here. These things are much more complex than just looking at certain numbers. Will my hon. Friend comment on that?
  Mrs. Lawrence: I thank my hon. Friend for raising that issue, and I think he is absolutely right.

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  Interestingly, a look at the figures for those committing traffic offences who are implicated in other serious crime bears out what he is saying.
  Traffic policing and camera enforcement should not be mutually exclusive, and that leads me back to question the role of the uniformed on-road officers that will be created by the Bill. While cameras can register and enforce speed violations of vehicles exceeding standard limits, there are speeding offences they cannot deal with. For example, they will not detect the speeding of the 4x4 vehicle towing a boat on a trailer that overtook me via the outside lane of the M4 at well over 70 mph recently, breaking three rules of the road in doing so. Neither will they detect the 60 mph restricted solo vehicle speeding in any lane, whether that is a lorry or any vehicle towing a trailer. They cannot detect the boy or girl racer who weaves from lane to lane, both overtaking and undertaking and causing a danger to all road users. They cannot detect the vehicle "tailgating" the one in front—an all too prevalent practice, it seems. All those activities are liable to cause accidents and subsequent congestion.
  Brian White: Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the greatest frustrations is someone doing 40 or 50 mph in the middle lane, which causes a lot of problems? People going slowly and not at the appropriate speed, as well as people going over the speed limit, cause many accidents.
  Mrs. Lawrence: I agree entirely. Also involved is the current practice of drivers feeling that they can drive continuously in the middle or the outside lane, turning a three-lane motorway into a one-lane motorway. That needs a human presence on the motorway to deal with it. All those offences are dangerous. They cause congestion and are potentially causes of accidents, but they require a human presence on the roads to identify them. More officers present in unmarked cars, plus traffic policing being restored as a key priority at some level, would achieve that.
  I am interested to hear from the Minister whether those are the further powers referred to in clause 8. In the meantime, I urge the Government to ignore the idea of populist support for ending speed camera enforcement. That populist support does not come from people living in communities severed by busy roads. They are aware of the value and worth of speed cameras in protecting local residents and children in particular. I would suggest that that populist support comes only from those who are prepared selfishly to ignore speed limits and break rules that are there quite simply to save lives. Speed cameras have been shown to be effective in doing so. In fact, if we are serious about road safety we probably need more, as well as more enforcement support for those offences that the cameras cannot detect. I would welcome the Minister's comments as to whether the proposed uniformed officers will have any role in doing just that.
  6.28 pm
  Mr. John Redwood: I have declared my interests in the register. I welcome the general thrust of the Government's intentions, as the official Opposition did through the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Ashford (Mr. Green). There is a
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  big congestion problem and there are things that can be done to manage the existing road network more successfully to reduce some congestion pressures, so I hope that the House gets to work on the Bill in a spirit of co-operation.
  There are possibilities for building alliances from Members of all parties, because we all face the problem of congested roads and frustrated journeys. We all have many constituents who find it increasingly difficult to get to work, to the shops or to the leisure facilities that they wish to visit, but they have to go by car because there is no viable public transport alternative for many of those journeys.
  I therefore have a list of some 10 proposals, which could be accommodated within the legislation or be added as a strength by developing other policies outside it that might go further than the Bill in dealing with congestion. My first proposal is connected to car parking. My observation is that, in many busy urban environments, a lot of the traffic circulating is traffic that is frustrated at not being able to find an easy parking place near the station, bus stop or shops that the person wishes ultimately to use. All too many car parks at public transport interchanges are full after about 8 or 8.30 am because their size is not adequate for the number of people wishing to change mode of travel.
  Town centre car parking is often not adequate for the binge shopping that now characterises our retail experience: everybody wishes to go on the same two or three days after Christmas or new year to do all their shopping for the year for many items in the sales, and there simply is not enough car parking space. More and more traffic therefore circulates and chases fewer and fewer spaces in car parks and on the street. We should therefore look at the adequacy of parking, particularly for transport interchanges, and those same transport interchange car parks could be a useful adjunct to shopping car parks at the weekend, when fewer people would want to use them for their main purpose: transport interchange. In my area, we face totally inadequate car parking at main railway stations and adjacent to main shopping areas. A more realistic parking policy would reduce much unnecessary circulation.
  The second item on my list could be arranged by the Department for Transport in conjunction with colleagues responsible for planning: parking of vehicles at or near people's homes. Present planning guidance seems to encourage fewer garages and fewer off-street car parking places for people's vehicles. Much of the guidance assumes that the typical family has only one and a half cars. I do not know about you, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I have never met any families with one and a half cars. In my area, the increasing trend is for all families to have two cars, because both the wife and the husband wish to go to work or to separate leisure or retail facilities. That requires two cars, and places are therefore needed to garage or park those cars off-street. If many of the cars were taken off-street when stationary, that would make a big impact on the available road space for cars, lorries, vans, emergency vehicles and buses to circulate, and the place would be improved aesthetically if people put cars in their garages and closed their garage doors. My observation is that,

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  when people own their cars, they tend to put them in their garages and lock the doors, whereas if their cars are provided by a company, they often put about £300 of junk in the garage, close the door, and leave the £15,000 motor outside. Life is not perfect, but it would be good to change planning guidance so that more off-street parking places are provided in residential areas to free road space for circulation.
  The third issue, which is already covered by this Bill, is roadworks. I welcome the Government's moves to try to expedite roadworks and clarify the duties of the private sector contractors and businesses that need access to the highway to dig it up in order to repair or expand facilities. I am glad that the Government welcome competition and choice, which means more such organisations having the right or need to enter the highway for those purposes. I hope that when scrutiny has finished in Committee, sense will have been made of the powers that local and national Government require to control or discipline that work.
  The Minister should also ensure that the Bill acts against traffic management authorities—highways authorities—themselves. My observation is that local and national highways authorities are as guilty as private sector utilities of digging up roads at inappropriate times of day, of coning off too much road space or large chunks of it when people are not working on the site, and of not removing the cones where possible to facilitate traffic flows. It is possible in some cases for local and national highways authorities to insist on overnight or weekend working, or working at periods of the day and year when the roads are less busy. That is not universal practice, however. Given how our main routes are overtaxed and overstressed, it should become common practice to undertake disruptive works overnight or at less busy times of the day and year to improve flows at peak periods when congestion is usually at its worst. I hope that the Minister will consider amending the Bill to place strong duties of care on highways authorities to ensure that they, too, behave themselves when entering our streets and deciding to close down lanes or whole roads.
  Mr. Drew: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that one thing that makes that so much more difficult is contractualisation? I have some sympathy with his point, but surely with predictable work—this would not necessarily apply to emergency work, although even that could be covered—a work team should be on call to complete it in the shortest period. That is much more difficult when contractual arrangements are in place.
  Mr. Redwood: I do not think that that is true at all. The highways authority employs the contractor, and it can specify in the contract not only the works that need to be done, which it must specify anyway, but the hours of working. When granting planning permissions for major developments, particularly in busy areas such as London, it is normal for the local authority to lay down conditions on when and how the building contractors can get access to the site, the hours of working, the hours at which they can use noisy implements and so on. Those of us who are residents in the centre of London welcome such restrictions for our protection. Similar
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  restrictions can be placed on contractors working directly for the highways authority. That does not mean that all work must be done in-house but merely that some foresight and proper management of the contract is needed so that the highway is not abused and congested unnecessarily by the actions of the highways authority—often the worst culprit in this connection.
  My fourth point is a similar one in relation to the Highways Agency acting on the motorways and main national trunk routes. I read in my papers recently that the M25 will be widened on its western section close to my constituency. I welcome that because it is necessary progress. It is a very successful road, and without it the economy of Britain would scarcely function at modern levels—it takes so many of the goods and passengers that need to move around London and across the country. Of course more capacity is needed. I find it extraordinary that it will take two years to add a couple of lanes to a rather short section of the motorway, and that much of the work will take place during busy hours of the day.
  I cannot imagine that the authorities would decide to do that to one of the two principal runways at Heathrow. They would not say that they will take a couple of years to improve the runway and make sure that it is closed down or has speed restrictions on it at busy times when all the jets are stacked up to leave or come in from America and elsewhere. That would make no commercial sense. Of course, work is done very quickly at Heathrow and it is done overnight and at times when the runway can be shut.
  The same should apply to the M25, which is probably the most vital transport investment made in this country in the last 100 years and the crucial central link of our whole transport system. Given that more than 80 per cent. of all goods and passengers go by road, and given that the M25 is the main link for the whole national network, taking huge flows of traffic, surely it is possible to do that work in less than two years and to avoid doing it at busy times of the day. I hope that the Highways Agency will be re-instructed, certainly on future contracts if not on those, so that we can have a better performance in future.
  My fifth proposition is that much of the congestion in urban and developed areas comes from stops made by buses and delivery vehicles without proper pull-ins or access to the facilities to which they wish to get access. In the case of new bus stops, it would be wise for local authorities to require pull-ins or for the bus stop to be sited on a section of the highway on which traffic can get past the bus safely, without having to queue behind it while people get on and off the bus and, sometimes, pay their fares.
  Mrs. Dunwoody: I can cite a case in which a bus service was withdrawn simply because it was impossible to take a single-decker bus down a road in which people parked their cars. When I suggested that there should be nice yellow lines, the residents of the road were singularly unhappy.
  Mr. Redwood: That is a perfectly good point, although it is different from the one that I was making. I am all in favour of better bus services. I am also well aware, as is the hon. Lady, as a constituency Member,

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  that people who have lobbied for a bus service normally object strongly when it is suggested that the route should run along their own road. Buses are noisy, cause a lot of vibration and can be intimidating for those in houses close to the street. The providers of bus services, the planners and—sometimes—Members of Parliament must pick their way through such problems.
  My point is that when introducing new bus stops, local authorities should at the very least have a duty to use their best endeavours to find places on the highway where it is possible to pass a bus that is stationary or collecting passengers and, ideally, that would be an absolute requirement. Indeed, in the case of new estates, commercial developments and retail areas, it should be possible to incorporate lay-bys and pull-ins in the road structure so that buses can pull off the highway safely without impeding traffic flow, and people can get on and off the buses free of the pressures of traffic whistling close to them as it does when buses are allowed to stop in the middle of the carriageway in narrow streets, as they often are now.
  Of course it will not be possible to move all the existing bus stops. That would be too disruptive. Nevertheless, local authorities should be required to apply those measures to the siting of new stops, and also to the design and development of retail and industrial facilities. All those, surely, should be required to provide proper back access, proper parking and proper entry and exit points for heavy commercial vehicles. That would end many of the problems in busy town centres where vans and lorries must stop outside the front doors of shops, disrupting the traffic pattern. I am glad that the Bill contains provisions relating to double parking, but it could go further by proposing at least a duty for future developments to provide proper access for deliveries and the collection of goods in the case of retail outlets.
  My sixth point concerns junction design. Here the road safety problems that worry us all meet the problem of congestion. I do not think that enforcing better road safety need conflict with the solving of congestion problems, although many Members seemed to take that for granted today. A great many accidents occur at junctions, because it is at junctions that a damaging conflict between pedestrians, cyclists and vehicles all travelling in different directions, and all taking up less usual positions on the highway as they jostle to turn right or left, intersect or move from lane to lane, is most likely. There is a lot of fairly unpredictable movement, and too much movement causing conflict between the vulnerable—the pedestrian and the cyclist—the less vulnerable—the car—and the largely invulnerable heavy lorry and bus.
  I want the Government to encourage better design at junctions. That is not possible in every case, as some of our beautiful towns and cities contain narrow mediaeval street patterns; but in many instances, even given the existing width of the highway, it would be possible to segregate right-turning traffic from traffic going straight ahead. That would lessen congestion and introduce more discipline and order at junctions, reducing the potential for dangerous conflict. It would be a good idea to design a decent long right-turning lane in every new highway and road that will be heavily used—not just in trunk roads, but in busy interconnecting roads between towns and villages and different parts of a large city—so that right-turning traffic can be segregated, and straight-
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  on traffic can make reasonable progress across the junction when it is free to do so, given the traffic controls that will undoubtedly be necessary.
  My seventh suggestion is that we should allow traffic to turn left at red lights, while treating a red light as a stop sign. Traffic should of course be required to halt so that it can make sure that the situation is safe, and anyone crossing the road should have priority, but in many instances vehicles could easily turn left while posing no danger. That would free junctions more quickly, increase flows and reduce the pollution caused by those sitting at junctions—as they nearly always do—with their engines running and stuff belching out of the back.
  This is my eighth point. We should think again about traffic light phasing in many towns and cities. There is a new tendency, especially in London, towards all-red phases that seem to go on for a very long time, regardless of whether there are people wishing to cross the road. That is causing a good deal of pollution, congestion and frustration. It is normally sufficient for pedestrians to be able to cross one road at a time. It is therefore possible to synchronise light controls for pedestrians with those for vehicles. There should always be a green phase for vehicles at busy junctions, along with a guarantee of safety for pedestrians in the form of a green phase for them as well. All-red light junctions are causing an awful burden of extra pollution in the centre of London.
  In my area, where we do not yet experience that problem to any great extent—although I fear it is coming our way—we need a system allowing people to decide on the priority route. Traffic light junctions would be much better if the lights always reverted to green on main roads unless they sensed traffic on the lesser roads coming into the junction. After the busy periods, traffic often sits at red lights for no good reason at night, again polluting the environment and frustrating the driver, when there is obviously nothing coming in the other directions. Traffic sensors, and a presumption that the lights would always be green for the main route unless traffic was present, would greatly reduce the congestion and frustration for which there is no need, given the small volume of traffic.
  My ninth point is this. We should reduce the number of pinch points and humps on well-used roads, which are themselves becoming a danger. A few years ago, a strange safety fad began: that of taking a perfectly two-lane road, deciding that all other speed-control methods would not work, and putting bumps and other obstacles in the way so that the two-lane road became a one-lane road. Unwise drivers would then play a game of chicken with each other, coming in different directions. It would be a case of who would reach the pinch point first and get through. I do not consider that a safe way of behaving, or a sensible way of reducing congestion and encouraging flow. If there is a speed problem on the road, by all means solve it in other ways.
  John Mann: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the changes in the Department for Transport traffic guidance in the last year are a significant improvement on the guidance of 1990, 1991 and 1992, which

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  introduced the absurd system of road humps that were essentially intended not to stop speeding but to discourage any kind of motoring?
  Mr. Redwood: I am not sure that the latest guidance helps as much as the hon. Gentleman suggests. Many of the measures to which I object have been introduced in the last six years. Perhaps councils are finding it difficult to catch up with more sensible and rational thinking. I look forward to hearing the Minister's response to that.
  John Mann: I have spent a lot of time looking at this. I should be interested to know which departmental guidance, since 1997, has altered the position in relation to pinch points and road humps—apart from the guidance of approximately three years ago that created the concept of home zones. Those that have caused trouble in my area date from 1990, 1994 and the earlier years, particularly 1991 and 1992. If there are specific examples of guidance that has changed the position, I have obviously missed them. I should be most interested to know of them, as this is of great consequence to my constituents.
  Mr. Redwood: I am talking about the reality on the ground. Many of these things were introduced under a Labour Government and often under Labour and Lib Dem councils. It is a great pity. I look forward to better guidance and support from the Department to get rid of some of the obvious follies.
  Another absurdity is the double cushion—a cushion on each of the lanes of a two-lane highway. Some people think that the way to avoid the cushion is to drive straight down the middle of the highway, where they do not bump as much as when they go over the cushion. That is extremely dangerous but it does not stop a lot of people doing it.
  John Mann: I believe that it was the 1994 guidelines that did not incorporate the ambulance service, which was not consulted and would have objected to many of the double cushions. Ambulances could not traverse them. As the right hon. Gentleman will recall, they were created on the basis that they would allow emergency service vehicles, particularly fire engines, to traverse them. Does he welcome the fact that in the past year the ambulance service has been automatically statutorily incorporated in any guidance on traffic calming, which means such problems can be avoided in his area and mine in future?
  Mr. Redwood: The hon. Gentleman is unwise to try to make a party political point because I cannot avoid a party political point in response. What I had in mind were road cushions introduced by a Labour council in Reading right outside Royal Berkshire hospital, which is about the most inappropriate place one could imagine given that, when we go there, we do not want to be shaken up too much if we have broken something or have something a little tender. It is not at all helpful to have those cushions right outside the hospital. Ambulance drivers do not like them either.
  My tenth point is that the best answer for safety as well as freeing congestion is, wherever possible, to segregate users who do not get on very well. It is not easy
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  to combine pedestrians, bicycles, cars and vans on the same road space. Where we have the luxury of new design, or where we have enough width already in the route corridor, it is much better to have decent pavements, if necessary protecting the pavement from the road by suitable railings. It is useful to have footbridges, underpasses and other things so that pedestrians do not have to wait to cross the road but can get straight on with getting across. It is a good idea to have sensible cycle lanes that can be properly maintained, avoiding lumps and bumps on the side of the road, potholes, drain covers and all the other things that cause trouble to those of us who occasionally brave a bicycle and discover how difficult it is on narrow, mixed-mode roads to cycle successfully and pleasantly. That is a much better answer. Again, it is not always possible, given restricted streets and the inherited asset, but it is possible in some places where there is sufficient width on the route corridor.
  We are invited by the Bill to consider speed cameras. We have had an unsatisfactory debate so far. There is a role for speed cameras in locations where speed could be, or has been proven to be, the cause of accidents. I suspect that the guidance on the location of speed cameras is broadly correct. I would want to look at it again but I can see the logic of it. I just do not believe that quite a lot of speed cameras that I have seen and sought to obey successfully are there for the reasons set out in the guidance.
  There is another problem. While there are still some places where the maximum speed limit is inappropriately high for the conditions, there are many places where the maximum speed limit for the road is thought inappropriately low by most of the road users. That is where those cameras become ways of taxing or frustrating the motorist.
  I often seek to come to London by car because I normally stay several nights in London and my local train station will not allow me to park my car for longer than a day. Therefore, I cannot come by train— [Interruption.] Does the hon. Member for North-West Leicestershire (David Taylor) wish to intervene? No, he does not.
  I get a lot of experience of using the M4-A4, the M3-A316 and the M40-A40, the three principal western radial routes into our capital city. In recent years, there has been a progressive reduction in the 70 mph speed limit on motorway sections closest to London and on the dual carriageway with grade separated interchanges on the trunk road system to the east of the motorway. Most motorists do not think that those speed limits are appropriate. There are now speed limits of 40, 50 and 60 mph, depending on where one is, on what are very big roads with no pedestrians and no conflict of traffic across them.
  As a law-abiding law maker, I do not like that law but I know that I have to obey it. I dutifully come in at 40, 50 or 60 mph. I am always in the slow lane. Most people are overtaking me at 10 or 20 mph faster than I am travelling. I do not think that they are doing anything unsafe but they are clearly doing something illegal. As soon as they reach the cameras, all the sensible ones who know those roads very well stick on their brakes. They bunch around the cameras—something that the Government have now told the press, but not Parliament, they may want to tackle—to try to get their

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  speed down and as soon as they are through the area with the camera they think, "This is a perfectly safe road. It should be 60 or 70 mph." They put their feet down and away they go again.
  That is making idiots of the law makers. It is doing great harm because, as soon as people get the idea that it is perfectly safe to do 60 mph on a grade separated dual or treble carriageway into London, they may think, "It makes sense to do 40 on a 30 mph road or perhaps I can do 28 on a 20 mph road. Perhaps the speed limit there is ill judged, too." However, the speed element in this case may have been better judged because there could be a conflict with vulnerable users of the highway.
  The Government need to look again both at speed limits and where they wish to place their main enforcement activities. The cameras are in much greater profusion on those large roads where there is no great danger from speeds higher than the speed limit and there are still quite a lot of very bad roads, described by my hon. Friend the Member for Ashford as some of the worst in Britain, where, for good reason or bad, it has been decided not to place speed cameras, perhaps because someone has decided that speed is not the major cause of accidents on them.
  In considering the Bill, we must tackle that general question: is speed the main or primary cause of accidents? The Transport Research Laboratory and others have concluded that speed is only the primary cause of accidents in between 7 and 15 per cent. of all accidents. That is serious but by no means the main cause. The main causes of accidents are bad driving, pedestrians and cyclists behaving rashly on busy roads, or bad junction construction allied to misjudgments by motorists, cyclists and pedestrians. That is where an awful lot of the accidents occur and where my suggestions on junction design and segregation would make quite a lot of impact on road safety. Our safest roads are our motorways, which happen to be our fastest roads. Even this Government are not going to suggest that we should all go at 30 mph on the motorway to avoid some of the accidents that unfortunately occur, because they realise that we have to have reasonable speeds on the main trunk motorway routes around the country to keep things moving.
  To say that speed is the cause of accidents is about as helpful as saying that travel is the cause of accidents. It is self-evident that if we banned everyone from travelling other than by foot we would avoid a lot of casualties and deaths but few people would want to live in such a society. It would be much poorer and the range of things that we could do would be gravely reduced by such huge restrictions on our movement. I was glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Ashford made the powerful point that one reason for congestion is the big surge in people gaining access to driving licences. Twenty or 30 years ago, they would not have been able to, owing to the fact that motoring was much more a luxury for the rich and less a necessity of the many. We should welcome that and try to accommodate it.
  The answer is not to say that speed is the main problem. It is not to say that limiting speed is the way to deal with safety and/or congestion. Nor should we be trying to drive all those people off the roads all the time. We should be trying to make good transport choices available for them, including getting them to proper
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  transport interchanges, so that they can use public transport, where that is available and appropriate, much more easily.
  I hope that, during the progress of the Bill, the Government's laudable aim of reducing congestion will remain the principal aim of the legislation. I have tried to show that that is not necessarily in conflict with having safer roads, but could in many cases be allied to better road safety if we have a proper understanding of the causes of accidents, deaths and injuries. I have offered 10 practical suggestions—some could be included in the Bill, and others could be dealt with by other Government action—that would give much more bang for our buck, and much more scope for cutting the congestion that is now a grave threat to our economic recovery and to our quality of life.
  7 pm
  Mr. David Kidney: Please allow me to wish you, Madam Deputy Speaker, the rest of Mr. Speaker's team and the staff of the House a happy new year. I should declare a non-pecuniary interest of some relevance, in that I co-chair the Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety, which has been mentioned; however, everything that I will say in this debate constitutes my own views. Like many Members who have spoken, I am a some-time motorist, a sometime cyclist, and a some-time pedestrian, so of course, I have an interest in the Bill.
  I should like to declare my sympathy for and solidarity with my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody), in that her Committee was deprived of the opportunity of pre-legislative scrutiny of the Bill. I am an enthusiast of draft Bills and pre-legislative scrutiny, which improve the quality of legislation passed by this House. It also gives the outside world the opportunity to comment before the House begins the formal stages of debate and scrutiny, rather than learning about such legislation afterwards and complaining to us.
  I agree with those Members who expressed regret at the absence of a more explicit commitment in the Bill to the objective of road safety itself. I should certainly like closer reference to be made in Committee to strategies such as the Government's road safety strategy, and to the aim of reducing casualties on roads. However, the official Opposition's spokesman was well wide of the mark when he described the Bill as an anti-motorist measure. Perhaps that is a predictable and well-worn Opposition response to any Government proposal relating to our roads. I would argue that in fact, the Bill is unambiguously pro-motorist, and answers many of the loudest and most frequent complaints made to me and to other law makers by motorists themselves. Indeed, the more proactive management of the road network of England and Wales is surely a desirable aim that has long been neglected by this House and Parliament. However, it is important to put this proposal in the context of the rest of the Government's road transport proposals. Substantial investment is being made in trains and buses, and in local road safety measures through local transport plans. The building of some new roads has been proposed, along with the widening of certain major roads. Together, that amounts to a package to aid motoring, not to obstruct it.

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  During my contribution, I propose to imagine myself in the driving seat of my car, and to consider the differences that I will see as a driver if the Bill becomes law in its current form. It is important to make a distinction that some Members have not quite made. There are clear differences of approach in terms of trunk roads, including motorways, which are managed by the Highways Agency, and the networks of local roads that are managed by local authorities. When I drive along motorways and trunk roads in future, I can expect to see the Highways Agency's new uniformed traffic officers on patrol in their marked patrol vehicles. However, they will be in addition to, not in place of, police officers. Indeed, the spokesman for the official Opposition did the House a gross disservice by suggesting that when the Highways Agency's traffic officers are introduced, the police will withdraw from the highways that the agency manages. In fact, the excellent research paper on the Bill, prepared by the House of Commons Library, provides a very good description of the history of the collaboration between the Highways Agency and chief police officers in attaining their respective roles and responsibilities in the future policing and management of trunk roads and motorways. That passage of the research paper is very helpful, and is reassuring for those who have any doubts about the future presence of the police on our roads.
  Mr. Adrian Flook: While the hon. Gentleman is travelling along these motorways, does he perceive the role of these individuals as ever involving measuring traffic speed?
  Mr. Kidney: [Interruption.] No, and the Bill's proposals are clear enough in that regard. I hesitated because I remembered my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich asking what was meant by the reference to an ability to increase traffic officers' powers at a later stage. We should certainly pursue that matter in Committee, but here we are talking about the police's role in enforcing the law, and the traffic officers' role in managing the network and keeping traffic flowing.
  However, the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Flook) makes a good point about the powers of traffic officers. What will I need to know about their powers as I drive along the motorway? First, I will need to know that they are there as part of the Highways Agency's new role as the network manager. They will be proactive in trying to reduce congestion, especially after the breakdowns and crashes that occur on motorways and trunk roads. Among their powers will be the power to order me to stop, or to use, or not to use, a particular motorway lane. If I resist or obstruct them in carrying out those duties, I face a fine of up to £1,000 and a month in prison. Under the terms of the new criminal justice legislation, that will change to a maximum of 51 weeks in prison, to take account of the custody plus powers that will eventually apply. Of course, traffic officers may also place signs on the motorway that give those instructions to me, and which I must obey. Importantly, as clause 4 tells us, those officers must defer to police officers.
  When I drive along and reach the scene of a breakdown or a crash, I will expect to see these traffic officers in attendance. How will they know that there has
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  been such an incident? They will be directed by regional control centres, and will receive information from the emergency phone system alongside the motorway, from CCTV cameras, from police reports and from telephone calls from the public. If I break down or crash, how will my vehicle be removed? If I subscribe to a recovery service such as the AA, Green Flag or RAC, as many people do, I would expect to alert the organisation in question to the fact that my vehicle needs to be removed. Will the Highways Agency's traffic officers come along and tell me that they will remove my vehicle, even as I am waiting for my breakdown vehicle to arrive, at a current statutory cost of £105? I would like to insist on my own arrangements, but will I be able to do so? According to my understanding of the Secretary of State's contribution today, I will, but it is clear that if the vehicle in question is causing an obstruction, it would at some point become unreasonable to continue to wait for a service that claims to be on its way.
  More importantly, if I am at the side of the motorway because of a crash, I will be confident that it will not have been my fault. I will want the police to be on the scene, carrying out their investigations to establish where the fault lies, before the traffic officers allow the traffic to drive over the scene of the crash, thereby destroying any evidence to support my contention that the crash was somebody else's fault. If there is a dispute in terms of traffic officers wanting to clear the backlog of traffic, and the police wanting to continue their investigations, it is important to come back to clause 4, which makes it clear that police officers will have the final say.
  The Secretary of State has told us that we in the west midlands, where I do most of my motoring, can expect to be the first to see the new service in operation on the motorways. I can certainly vouch for the control centre at Perry Barr. Police officers and Highways Agency staff are already located there under the same roof, side by side, co-operating in the policing of the motorways of the west midlands.
  If I am driving along the M42 in 2006, I will see the country's first example of more active management by the Highways Agency. I will see more frequent gantries with overhead signs, providing the ability to impose speed limits on the lanes in which I am travelling and other lane controls—for example, telling me which lanes I can or cannot use. If I look to my left across the hard shoulder, I will see additional emergency refuge areas beyond it. At times the signs will instruct me to use the hard shoulder as a running lane as well. It is another example of the Highways Agency's intention to do everything to keep the traffic moving.
  All that applies to motorways and trunk roads, which are only 4 per cent. of the total road network of England and Wales. What of the local roads in towns and cities such as Stafford? Here we do not start from a base of no organisation whatever—the county council already has a traffic control centre in Staffordshire from which staff can monitor traffic flows and intervene when traffic builds up. Traffic light timings can be changed to speed the traffic through areas of congestion and the council can work co-operatively with the police to ensure intervention where it is necessary.
  A briefing from Transport for London shows that similar arrangements already exist in London. I have no detailed knowledge of how it works in London, but the

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  briefing is reasonably impressive. From that briefing and on the basis of my discussions with Staffordshire county council, it is clear that both believe that they could do better if they had appropriate legal powers and effective partnerships with others such as the police. I am therefore happy to support the Bill's proposals for local authorities to have new duties to co-ordinate and manage the road networks in their areas. I am also happy that the new duties and responsibilities should be focused on a traffic manager who heads the service that each authority provides.
  Furthermore, I am delighted to hear about a permit scheme to provide some control over what I find to be the motorist's most common complaint—the fact that no sooner has one utility company dug up the road and reinstated the surface than another comes along to dig up the same road all over again. Many people wonder why local authorities do not have the ability to co-ordinate such roadworks more closely. Happily and at long last, we have a Bill that answers that motorists' question and confers the power on local authorities. It restores the power to local authorities and goes further, making it a duty to co-ordinate roadworks, including those carried out by authorities themselves. That is a wholly desirable and necessary addition to existing provision.
  I received a briefing from Severn Trent Water plc, which serves the residents of Stafford with water services. The company articulates its concerns about the new system. Its particular worry, outlined in the briefing, is about the proposal for local authorities to make orders that there should be no digging up of roads for a set length of time after they have been dug up and reinstated. I say to the company that we need a sensible and reasonable interpretation of what is meant by "emergencies", which allow utility companies to dig up the same stretch of road when it should be free from roadworks.
  I personally welcome the idea of a street works register, which I hope will be open to the widest possible public inspection. I hope that it will allow the public to see what works are forthcoming and to comment on them. The local authority should then be encouraged to take some notice of what the public say. After all, authorities will be able to co-ordinate such matters as the dates and permitted times of day for roadworks, which routes will be affected and the diversions that they will entail. Motorists are keen on such issues and could contribute to the debate before the conditions were set.
  The Bill also proposes that local authorities have improved enforcement powers. I believe that that is a positive policy, not something to worry about. As an example, Staffordshire has not proved too good at the civil enforcement of parking regulations under existing law. As a result, there are far fewer residents' parking schemes in Staffordshire than many residents would like. I look forward to authorities being able to use civil enforcement powers and, as a by-product, to create more residents' parking schemes that will be effectively enforced. If parking fines for breaches of regulations are collected effectively, I hope that authorities will use the money to keep the residents' parking scheme charges at a reasonable level and to ring-fence any excess for local environmental improvements for the same communities.
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  Many of my constituents complain that the police seem too busy to prevent everyday traffic violations, such as the abuse of disabled parking spaces, vehicles wrongly using bus lanes or parking over yellow junction boxes that should not have been entered in the first place. What we need is proper and consistent enforcement of traffic regulations. If we attain such proper enforcement in future, it would meet public expectation and help to keep traffic flowing in the future.
  I see the Bill as a giant stride forward in keeping traffic moving. I hope that, as a result, the future will see less congestion, happier motorists with lower blood pressure and cleaner air. The Bill advances network management and provision of levels of customer service in a way that has not previously been attempted in England and Wales, so I welcome it and urge the House to feel that it is safe on this occasion to put the foot down on the accelerator, steer the Bill through Parliament and make for the open roads.
  7.17 pm
  Sir George Young: It is a pleasure to follow the thoughtful and constructive speech of the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Kidney). The House enjoyed being a passenger in his car as he took us on a 20-minute, action-packed drive around the Bill's various clauses.
  I want to start by picking up a point that the hon. Gentleman made, which was also mentioned by the hon. Members for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody) and for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso). The Leader of the House keeps reminding us that the Government are in favour, in principle, of pre-legislative scrutiny. They would have done well to test drive the Bill on a pre-legislative circuit in order to deal with the many leaks, rattles and sharp edges that the House has already discovered in just three hours of debate. The Bill's accelerated process through Standing Committee will not allow us to do justice to it.
  The hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Mrs. Lawrence) says she is pleased that the Bill applies to England and Wales. I ask rhetorically whether it is right that Scottish Members are entitled to vote on Second Reading for a Bill that applies only to England and Wales and deals with a subject that is a wholly devolved matter for the Scottish Parliament. That question is likely to be asked more frequently as the Bill passes through Parliament.
  Mr. Key: Would my right hon. Friend care to comment on the fact that not a single Scottish Member of Parliament has been present to speak in the debate so far?
  Sir George Young: I agree with my hon. Friend, but I am glad that the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross was not listening to his intervention. Having said that, no Back Bencher representing a Scottish constituency is attending the debate at present.
  I welcome the concept of better management of our roads. The policy of predict and provide died a long time ago and was buried by a combination of financial pressure from the Treasury and environmental pressure from a broader base. As the Secretary of State said, we

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  need a balanced, sustainable and affordable transport policy, which requires us to make the best possible use of the road space available.
  The Government chose a bad day on which to introduce the Bill because today is the first time for some seven years when capped rail fares have gone up by more than the retail prices index minus one. That seriously injures the Secretary of State's advocacy of a balanced transport policy that encourages more use of public transport.
  I do not claim to be the author of the policy in part 1 of allowing the Highways Agency to take from the police some responsibilities for traffic management, but the idea was certainly knocking around the Department some eight years ago and it seems to have had a long gestation period. I should like to make two points. First, on resources, the Highways Agency will spend £72 million initially and £57 million per annum once the traffic officers and the regional control centres are up and running. Has the Department been given the resources by the Treasury, or has it had to raid its road or rail budget to find the elbow room for that extra expenditure? Is any of the cash for those extra responsibilities being taken from the police, who will no longer have to perform those functions? The Bill implies that there is no transfer of resources, but it would be helpful to have the point confirmed by the Minister.
  I hope that the Minister will also be able to deal with a number of important issues raised in the debate. Grey areas of demarcation have been raised between the police and the Highways Agency traffic officers. How will they inter-relate, and when will it be safe to allow the traffic to move on because no evidence is required for a criminal investigation? My hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (Mr. Key) mentioned the problem with the interest of the coroners: has that issue been satisfactorily resolved?
  Clause 11 provides that traffic officers will wear a uniform. That is important, because motorists need to know whether someone is a traffic officer. Obviously, however, those officers must not be mistaken for police officers, which they are not. Is some ingenuity being applied to exactly what uniform will designate someone as of authority but not a police officer? Will the traffic officers who are to speed up motorway traffic after an accident operate on traffic going the other way? It is frequently the case that there is a corresponding traffic jam going the other way, and traffic officers will be needed to stop the rubber-necking that often takes place.
  I am pleased to see that clause 9 enables the removal of certain vehicles by traffic officers. I hope that means that abandoned vehicles will be removed more quickly. It is not unusual for abandoned cars to remain on the verge of a road for some weeks, often with a sign on the windscreen saying that the police are aware of the vehicle. In those weeks, the windscreen is broken, the tyres are removed and the vehicle becomes even more of an eyesore and a hazard. I hope that clause 9 will enable that to be dealt with more quickly.
  I will need some persuasion that the principle of part 2, providing reserve powers to intervene when local authorities fail in their duties, is absolutely necessary.
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  The Government have such powers in, for example, education, where they have been used not wholly successfully. I recall suspending, some 20 or 25 years ago, a housing authority that refused to implement the right to buy. However, the House can ask the Government what evidence there is that local authorities are so negligent in their network management responsibilities that primary legislation is justified in this field of local authority activity. How do we know whether a local authority is failing. We can refer to standards of measurement for schools to judge whether an education authority is failing, but so far as I am aware there are no agreed measurements for whether a local authority is failing in this area. This part of the Bill sits uneasily with the rhetoric from the Deputy Prime Minister about wanting to decentralise and intervene less. Nor is it absolutely clear that the Highways Agency, which presumably would intervene if a local authority failed, is always on top of the job on its own roads.
  Clause 16, on which there have been some exchanges, places a duty to manage the network to secure
  "the expeditious movement of traffic on the authority's road network."
  Does that mean that the clause has priority over other objectives? It is well known to every motorist or cyclist in London over the past 18 months that the phasing of traffic lights has been changed so that they are red for longer. On my journey here from Dolphin square, at Vauxhall Bridge road I now—unlike, I must say, a lot of other cyclists—spend more time waiting for the lights to turn green. I ask myself whether the Mayor is in breach of clause 16. If he is, what is the Minister going to do about it? Will the guidance referred to in clauses 18 and 19 cover some of the issues raised in this debate about road safety and the needs of pedestrians and cyclists in order to qualify the rather stark obligation in clause 16(1)?
  Part 3 is wonderful in theory, but I doubt whether it will work in practice. I fear that it will be very bureaucratic. Why do we need the bit in clause 33 that says that once a council has prepared a permit scheme in accordance with the legislation, it must submit it to the Secretary of State? Why cannot councils just get on with it? I am intrigued by the exemption in clause 37, which I assume applies only to public highways. What public highways is Her Majesty going to dig up "in her private capacity"? One has a vivid image of the regal piledriver being set to work on some aspect of the road network and then exemption being pleaded under clause 37.
  There has been a bit of special pleading from the utilities. I have seen it argued that since the principal cause of traffic congestion is volume, the Bill is built on a false premise. I do not accept that; if one wants to make the most of the existing resource, one must clearly minimise the down time. Where I do have a lot of sympathy with the utilities is when they say that 50 per cent. of highway works are carried out not by them but by the Highways Agency, who appear to be exempt from the Bill. I do not see how there will be a level playing field between the authority and the utility companies. The agency digs up the streets a lot and appears to be judge and jury in parts 3 and 4 of the Bill. Even if it did fine itself, the net effect would be neutral. The notes tell us that the works covered in part 3 could include Highways Agency works. That is rather important. Are they covered, or are they totally exempt?

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  The hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. Allan) mentioned the roll out of broadband. I have campaigned in the House with colleagues on both sides to have broadband extended to rural areas. The economics of roll out are fairly marginal, and some telephone exchanges may never be enabled. I hope that the Minister has been in touch with his colleagues at the Department of Trade and Industry and has been able to reassure them that no measure in the Bill will either delay the delivery of broadband or so drive up the costs that it becomes uneconomic. Joined-up government is trying to pool demand for broadband among health and education providers, and that process would be stopped in its tracks if measures in the Bill made the roll out of broadband more difficult. A lot of the work that is covered is demand led. For example, when a customer wants broadband, someone may have to dig up the street to connect him. I do not see how that can be phased into the obligations in clause 49 and 50 that stop anyone digging up a road if the local authority has resurfaced it during the previous 12 months.
  Clause 41 places a duty on the street authority to co-ordinate its own roadworks and those of statutory undertakers. That is a perfectly sensible concept. The difficulty is that it is the street authority that will do the co-ordinating, and I fear that it may give preference to its own requirements over those of everybody else.
  This is more a matter for Committee, but clauses 56 and 57 seem to sit rather uneasily together. Clause 56 enables the Secretary of State to designate additional roads as strategic roads in London. Clause 57 enables the Greater London Authority to direct that a road may cease to be a strategic road. One can visualise an endless series of orders as particular roads are designated by the Secretary of State and then undesignated by the Mayor. It is not clear from a first reading of the Bill how that might be resolved.
  I am not going to enter the debate on speed cameras: there are no fixed speed cameras in North-West Hampshire, so I see no need to involve myself in that debate.
  On part 6, I support taking enforcement from the police and giving it to civil authorities as a principle. I am spending part of this year taking part in the police parliamentary scheme and that proposal will allow the police to focus on the real priorities for law and order. If it also takes pressure off the courts, that is an additional bonus.
  Clause 89 deserves a final passing comment. According to the title of the clause, it would give local authorities the power to use the surplus income from parking places more flexibly. However, according to the notes, that power will also extend to penalty charges. If the clause is to apply to all the income from all the new offences in the Bill, local authorities will have a considerable incentive to maximise income from that source. We all know the pressure that local authorities are under from the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister. If they cannot quite afford to pay for a new leisure centre out of the council tax, clause 89 would offer a convenient escape route. Councils could hit the penalty charges hard, hope that the victims do not live in the borough and, hey presto, they would have a new and buoyant source of income.
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  I suspect that the Bill is not quite as good as the Secretary of State told us, nor quite as bad as my hon. Friend the Member for Ashford (Mr. Green) suggested. My interest in the Second Reading should not be construed as an enthusiasm for the Committee stage, but I am sure that the Bill can be knocked into shape and all the questions answered. I believe that it will play a useful if unglamorous part in future transport policy.
  7.31 pm
  Brian White: It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young), although he has obviously read my speech as it covers some of the same territory as his. I welcome the Government's aim of reducing delays on the roads and ensuring that the Highways Agency and local authorities tackle congestion better. The Bill contains several welcome common-sense proposals, including the transfer of powers from the police to traffic officers. That will free up police time, and I welcome it.
  Forty years ago today, London Underground introduced the first automatic ticket barrier, which was regarded as innovative new technology, although nobody would think it odd today. One of my concerns about the Bill is whether it will be flexible enough to accommodate new technology. If not, it could go out of date very quickly.
  Regional control offices will provide a useful forum, and it makes sense that traffic should be managed at a local level. There are different problems in different areas and the Bill will grant local authorities more effective powers to make improvements on the roads. It is important to note the criteria on which the Department will judge success and how much it will take local factors into account. We must also see the Bill in the context of other initiatives from the Government, including their plans to increase road capacity in the medium to long term. That is not necessarily a good idea in all circumstances. I fundamentally disagree with the hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. Green) about the widening of the M1 between Luton and Milton Keynes. It is a waste of money and will not solve the problem. It will mean years of uncertainty, more road works and misery, and after six months—if that—of easier driving conditions, we will be back where we started. The money would be better spent on redesigning road junctions, especially motorway junctions, dualling the A41 between Bedford and Milton Keynes, and other environmental improvements.
  My constituents in Worcester close, Newport Pagnell, have had their Christmas break ruined by lorries parked at the Newport Pagnell service station leaving their engines running overnight to fuel their refrigerated units. Despite complaints to the service station and the Highways Agency, nothing has been done. That is the result of ineffective enforcement and is the sort of issue that the Bill should tackle, through sound barriers, redesign of parking areas and other initiatives that the Highways Agency should progress. The Bill could thus have a real impact on the lives of our constituents. As the agency moves from being primarily a road-building body to managing the road network, it should manage traffic flows on trunk roads and motorways and alleviate some of the worst consequences of the way in which we run our road network.

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  For once in my life, I agree with the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood). He was right to say that the design of new roads can alleviate many of the problems. I also agree that one of the best ways to tackle traffic flow problems is to separate cycle ways from roads. As a former environment Minister, he will appreciate the problem with red ways—or cycle ways—that we have in Milton Keynes. They are separate from main roads but they do not fit into the square boxes of the Department's funding formula, so the Government provide no money for their maintenance. We have hundreds of kilometres of red ways in Milton Keynes, but the Government give us no money for them. Why should other areas introduce separate cycle ways when they know that they will receive no extra money for them? It is important that any new proposals are taken into account in the funding formula for local authorities.
  The right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire and the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. Allan) mentioned broadband. The Bill will undoubtedly help British industry by alleviating congestion, but it must not have adverse effects on the longer term aims of the UK economy and other parts of industry. The need for IT companies to take up streets has been mentioned. I wrote to my hon. Friend the Minister before Christmas to highlight the issue and I am pleased to say that I received a response this morning. It says that the Department has set up a working group with the DTI to consider the issues to ensure that any adverse effects on the industry are minimised. It also states that
  "it is vital that the new legislative regime is effective without placing excessive regulatory burdens on those who carry out works in the street. This means getting the detailed arrangements right."
  That is the fundamental issue. We must get the details right and, if I am lucky enough to serve on the Standing Committee, I will come back to that issue.
  Street works can cause a nuisance. Existing legislation applies to utility companies, and the Transport Committee found it to be effective but badly implemented. I want some assurances from the Minister that the Bill will not repeat the history of the Department over the past 30 years, of proposing legislation but not knowing how to implement it. In 1991, those of us in local government warned the Conservative Government that the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991 would not deliver what it promised. We were assured that there would be no problem, so I am concerned to ensure that the Bill, which attempts to tackle some of the defects of that Act, will not repeat some of its mistakes. I urge the Government to consider fully the contribution that telecoms companies make to the UK economy and ensure that the legislation does not adversely affect them. If we impose embargoes we simply protect the incumbent companies and do not allow new companies to start up. Such details must be taken on board.
  The regulatory impact assessment takes little account of the cost to businesses and consumers of being denied access to new services. It is important for the Department to look into the commercial pressures that provide real incentives for such companies. If we get the legislation right and have the right type of
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  communication between the Department for Transport and other Departments, that will be a boon to British industry. If we get things wrong, there will be barriers and the normally hollow charges made about bureaucracy and red tape that we hear from the Opposition could turn out for once to be valid. The Minister should take that point on board.
  I had intended to raise the importance of the concerns of disabled road users, but my hon. Friend the Member for Kingswood (Mr. Berry) beat me to it by talking about the blue badge scheme. The Government have consulted widely about a number of changes. Those of us who regularly attend business questions are told that there is a premium on time for dealing with primary legislation. The Bill offers us an opportunity to make proposals and I hope that the Government will listen to the concerns that have been expressed about the desirability of tackling the problems of the blue badge scheme, and deal with them in Committee.
  Permit schemes work in many parts of the world and we should support them. However, the RIA states that in theory permits could be required by all and that it would be open to the Highways Agency to exempt itself, which would seem to dilute the scheme. I was always strongly opposed to third-party right of appeal in the planning system, but there was one exception to my opposition: where a council gave itself planning permission. Similar situations could arise under the Bill, so I welcome the Government's commitment that a further RIA will be made whenever regulations are introduced. The Government should ensure that all parties are involved in consultation on such regulations, but there could be real problems so I urge them in Committee to look again at the appeals mechanism for the permit scheme, to avoid repeating the problems that have arisen in the planning system.
  Under the current street works regulations, companies have to agree with the local authority a time for carrying out works on roads. The Halcrow group report shows how things have changed; companies dig smaller trenches rather than one large one so that they can backfill quickly if time is running out. The report highlighted the fact that most local authorities are unable to monitor, challenge or co-ordinate schemes owing to limited resources, low priorities and bad management. Whatever the increase in fines under clause 39, it will not achieve our objectives unless we put resources into enforcement, and the monitoring and control of the way in which local authorities work. The report of the Select Committee on Transport provides useful evidence on that point.
  The key to the success of the Bill is good communication within Departments, between Departments and between the various agencies, the police, the highways authorities and so on. The right hon. Member for Wokingham made several interesting suggestions.
  The local authority has just refurbished the bus stops in the road outside my office. A team went along putting in new bus shelters and resurfacing the road. However, the traffic management people, at the next desk at the local authority, had been planning to remove the traffic congestion barriers—the pinch points—for about a year. Despite sitting at adjoining desks, neither of those teams actually talked to the other, so the bus lane

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  scheme has compromised the removal of traffic congestion. That is an example of bad communication and we must ensure that lines of communication are recognised as a key part of the Bill.
  Despite my concerns, I fully support the Government in introducing the measure. There are difficult issues to tackle. The Bill would have benefited from pre-legislative scrutiny, but it will set up useful powers to help to ameliorate traffic management and tackle congestion. It is easy for Opposition Members to huff and puff, to throw together a few "anti" statements, with something about stealth tax, to criticise speed cameras and to try to get some cheap publicity. However, I did not actually hear many concrete suggestions to replace the Government's proposals.
  The Bill is a useful step forward. It can be improved in Committee, but if we are to tackle our congestion problems and the wider issues relating to the management of our road network, it offers a good starting point.
  7.46 pm
  Simon Hughes: I am happy to have this opportunity to speak on an important Bill. As my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso) said earlier, I shall—unsurprisingly—concentrate on matters to do with London—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] The Bill includes a lot about London so it is appropriate that there should be at least one London-centred speech.
  I want to endorse three points that have received wide support from both sides of the House. First, there should have been a draft Bill. We now have a good system for pre-legislative scrutiny and if it had been applied to the Bill we should have avoided some of the problems that we have already run into.
  Secondly, it is imperative that the Bill sets out responsibility for safety, especially in relation to the duties of those responsible for network management. To be fair, I think that there was a misunderstanding between my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross and the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood). In part 1, under the duties of the traffic officers appointed to work for the Highways Agency, there is, correctly, a reference to activities that assist in avoiding danger on the roads. However, there is no provision to make it the responsibility of a local traffic authority to improve safety. Such a provision could easily be added to clause 16 and it is important that it should be.
  Like many colleagues, I have stood alongside constituents who have lost relatives because of bad driving and because of deaths resulting from road collisions. I think particularly of the Bradfords, a couple who lost their only son, aged 14. They have since become active in RoadPeace, as have many others. Sadly, RoadPeace receives no Government support or funding—I stand to be corrected by Ministers—even though it is probably the best recognised of the groups that campaign on behalf of the victims of accidents and collisions on our roads. We have a duty to people such as Brigitte Chaudhry and many others who have fought
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  to put on the agenda the fact that speed and bad driving continue to kill and injure many, many people—as the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody) pointed out. Everyone involved in improving traffic management should have a safety responsibility.
  Thirdly, there should be a duty to ensure that we manage our traffic so as to improve the environment and not to harm it further. That should also be included in the Bill.
  Road users have a long list of current problems. We could all compile such lists. Mine includes 10 bugbears about London traffic that people have raised with me or that I have experienced myself. The first, which is addressed in the Bill, as legislation has sought to address it before, consists of the unnecessary roadworks, the repeated roadworks, the long-drawn-out roadworks, the roadworks that are happening in theory but people never see anyone on the job and the roadworks that are not completed properly and cause not only for cyclists but for others the problems that we all know about.
  The second is people who jump traffic lights, which happens increasingly frequently in London as a result of the slowing of traffic light changes, and those who block box junctions. I see more and more people in cars and vans, as well as cyclists, jumping traffic lights, regularly causing danger to themselves and others, and I shall return to why we need to deal with that increasingly dangerous problem.
  Mr. Redwood: I agree that that is dangerous, but is not one of the reasons for it the all-red phases and the fact that vehicle drivers have therefore learned that there is not so much danger as they originally thought? That is very dangerous in itself. I do not commend that behaviour, but that is why it is happening.
  Simon Hughes: I accept that, and I thought that the right hon. Gentleman made a thoughtful and considered speech. I agree with many of the specific points that he made, and I shall return to some of those proposals.
  The third bugbear is inconsiderate parking, often of single vehicles. As I was coming from Bermondsey this morning, a vehicle was parked just after 7 o'clock in the inner of two lanes, so everyone had to go from two lanes to one for about 200 yards. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) says that I could have gone by bus. I do so often, but I was going on other journeys today, so I did not do so on that occasion. I have been by bus—and by tube today, too. It is very frustrating when a whole lane of traffic is lost because one person parks inconsiderately, often on a double-yellow or red lines, reducing three lanes to two, or two lanes to one.
  The fourth bugbear is the failure to know what parking rules apply. We arrive in a place, we want to do the right thing and we look for a sign, but there is none. Once in Camden, near the British Museum, I remember looking along the whole length of the street to discover what the rules were—not a sign to be seen. People cannot be expected to comply with the law if they cannot find the signs. In London, where borough boundaries are often difficult to determine, people do not necessarily know which borough they are in and therefore cannot know which rules apply. That is clearly nonsense.

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  The fifth bugbear is indeed the rephased traffic light that holds us on red when nothing is coming in any direction and makes people increasingly angry and impetuous. Indeed, that is another reason why people shoot red lights when they have just turned red; they know that they will be held back for a very long time if they do not.
  The next is the over-zealous parking warden. A television series featured Southwark parking wardens, and one in particular who delighted in his work. The over-zealous parking warden may be fine, but the over-zealous parking warden who clearly does a bit more than is objectively justified is less fine, and the over-zealous parking warden who does that when everyone thinks that there is a clearly an incentive or commission for the number of catches made in a day is less fine still. There is a serious issue about commissions for trying to catch people out. A friend of mine was caught the other day, although he was sure, as were his family whom I trust as well as anyone, that he had not parked on a yellow line. He had parked just the other side of the yellow line, but a ticket was put on the car before it was picked up.
  The next bugbear is fewer traffic police. There are fewer people around to do the policing and the monitoring, and so on.
  The next is unnecessary empty bus lanes. We are trying to get one changed on Jamaica road in Bermondsey. It is justifiable at rush hour, but there is almost nothing in it during the middle of the day.
  The ninth is that sometimes the bus lanes are not unnecessary; it is just that they have unnecessary buses in them with no one on board. In the middle of day, there are often buses back to back along Oxford street with no one, or just a few people, on board. It is wonderful to have more buses, but not at times of day when people do not need them.
  The last bugbear—this was raised quite properly by the hon. Member for Milton Keynes, North-East (Brian White)—is the inconsistent application of the badge for disabled drivers. People do not have the freedom that they are intended to have because of that lack of consistency. We need to answer those frustrations, and we should seek to do so in the Bill if they are matters for national legislation.
  On the London agenda, London has led the way in doing many good things in transport, and the Bill seeks to provide other local authorities and areas throughout the country with the opportunity to do them too. I commend those actions. The old Greater London Council proposed the lorry ban—something that I supported—and it still remains in a residual form. The current Mayor introduced the congestion charge—something that I supported when the legislation went through the House and the Greater London Authority was set up, and in respect of which I made submissions to the present Mayor and the GLA appropriately. The congestion charge is not perfect—changes need to be made—but the principle is good, and I would wish it to continue.
  Powers under the London Local Authorities 1996 and the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 enable some of the things that the
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  Government now argue for to be done, particularly those that allow civil enforcement, rather than impose criminal penalty, for traffic offences. I shall return to that, because I support some of those measures but am wary of others.
  There are two specific London parts of the Bill—parts 5 and 2. Part 5 is welcome and gives the Mayor the power to specify new strategic roads. Many roads in London are not currently trunk roads, but they are clearly main roads by any definition. Technically, 16 per cent. of London's roads fall into that category, but they carry 75 per cent. of the traffic, and the logic is that they should be brought within the strategic network for common management and therefore that the Mayor and the London boroughs should co-operate in that. That would also have a beneficial side effect, to which the right hon. Member for Wokingham alluded: there would be no road humps on those roads. Sometimes there are road humps on roads that are clearly main roads, which causes inconvenience not just to the London Ambulance Service, which does indeed protest about that in London, but to others, as well as additional wear and tear to many vehicles, which adds to maintenance costs. So clauses 57 and 58 are welcome, including the power to stop other boroughs messing up the strategic plans. It cannot be right that they should be allowed to do that.
  There is, however, an unnecessary provision that relates to London in part 2. My hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young) and other hon. Members have referred to the proposal that the Government can intervene if local authorities do not do their jobs properly. As other colleagues have pointed out, the powers contained in clause 20 to provide for intervention notices have no objective implementation criteria at all. The clause reads:
  "If the appropriate national authority"—
  the Secretary of State in England, or the National Assembly for Wales
  "considers that a local traffic authority may be failing properly to perform any of their duties under sections 16 and 17 it may give a notice".
  So a prior notice can be given on the basis of a subjective judgment, and it can be implemented when there has been a chance to make a response under clause 21, which states:
  "If the appropriate national authority is satisfied…it may, by order,"
  make an intervention order. That is absolutely inconsistent with devolution to local councils or with devolution to the London Assembly. We debated this power two or three years ago, and one of the few substantial powers given to the London Mayor and the London Assembly is to deal with traffic in London, but it is suggested that, on the basis of no objective criteria, the Government can intervene and take back such powers.
  Ministers in all Departments would do well to consider the relatively unhappy litany of occasions when the Government wrote such powers into legislation and implemented them. As Ministers in the Department for Education and Skills know, the first Administration of the Labour Government intervened in Southwark to

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  take over its education authority from a Labour local council. In the end, the appointed private sector contractor—WS Atkins—ran away because it was not making enough money and left everyone in the lurch, and many people now realise that it might have been better to leave things with the local authority after all.
  I hope that part 2 will go, as my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross said, not least since it also provides for one borough to be able to undermine the Transport for London traffic director as well. That is further nonsense. It also implies, although it does not say, that the Government could appoint a private sector body as the director. That strikes me as being unsatisfactory, as the evidence adduces.
  So what could be done? Like other hon. Members, I shall make some suggestions. First, I agree with the right hon. Member for Wokingham that, if we are to encourage people to use public transport more and to drive less, there should be park and ride facilities at railheads, the ends of tube lines and the rail termini on the edge of London that are big enough to take the traffic. Amsterdam does it very well. Oxford does it well and Cambridge is doing it. It is possible to do it, although people require an incentive to use public transport systems. The only effective scheme on the edge of London is near Uxbridge, and that is a pretty half-hearted attempt.
  Secondly, I was surprised that the Secretary of State did not say a word about the use of satellite technology—the global positioning system—which could enable traffic management and road pricing throughout the country. It would be interesting to hear from the Minister whether the Government support that and may wish to use it. Some more mischievous people suggest that one reason why they may want the power of intervention is to stop others using it rather than waiting for it to be applied nationally.
  Thirdly, we must insist that local authorities provide adequate signs. People should not be penalised if there is no sign within a reasonable distance informing them of the rules. The duty to explain the rules rests with the local transport authority.
  Fourthly, the cameras, or fictitious cameras, that are overly used for speeding—although perfectly properly in their rightful place—should be used for dealing with the jumping of traffic lights, the blocked box junction and the bus lane infractions. Cameras used for such purposes are much more reliable and effective than an individual person appointed to give a subjective view. Like my hon. Friend, I am unhappy about the idea that a single official can give evidence about a moving traffic offence that may be disputed and contested.
  Fifthly, there is the general matter of principle regarding who has authority to give a ticket or take action as a law enforcement agency which would result in someone committing an offence and having a criminal record. I take the simple view that such people should always be employees of the state or of the local authority. Contractors working for private companies on a profit-making basis should not be able to enforce the criminal law. I have a clear view about that and it should apply on motorways as well as on trunk roads and London roads. If I am responsible for such matters next year there will be no such private contractors.
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  [Interruption.] The Labour party does not even have a candidate. It is casting around for someone whom it threw out only a few years ago, so it cannot sing too much about this.
  Sixthly, it is absolutely right that there should be a permit system. At page 37 of volume 1 of the Transport Committee's report there is a helpful paragraph on the New York scheme that states:
  "any Utility wishing to dig up the road has to obtain a separate permit for each of its works…The New York City Department of Transportation issued over 172,000 permits in the financial year 2002…Fees are currently between$135 and $380 for 15 or 30 days".
  Those permits give all the conditions that apply. That is a proper way to regulate what has become a nonsense. There used to be a dozen utility companies about 15 years ago; there are now about 150. We need a permit system.
  Seventhly, we should consider impounding vehicles more often. The regular offender should lose his vehicle. It may or may not be the white van—
  Mr. Key: It may be the orange taxi.
  Simon Hughes: There are not many of those. The regular offender should not simply be given a ticket—a fine that is not enforced—his vehicle should be held, not just until the fine is paid but as a punishment. That is an appropriate punishment and should be used more often.
  Eighthly, road closures in the community on bank holidays and at weekends for local events should be more frequent and easier. At present people have to go through a long and complicated process and they would be grateful for temporary pedestrianisation for community activity, and I hope that that can be encouraged.
  Ninthly, the hon. Member for Milton Keynes, North-East made the strong point that I had not heard before about the nonsense of having the red ways for cycles in Milton Keynes that cannot be funded. There should be, as there is in many countries, the separation of cycles and pedestrians wherever possible. That is clearly safer and should be the case much more frequently in London, but we will have to sort out the funding stream for that.
  Lastly, I do not go as far as the right hon. Member for Wokingham in saying that we should allow more frequent movement through red lights for left or right turns, although I think that he specified left turns, arguing from the presumption of the United States. I am not yet persuaded about that, although it is done there. But there is certainly a case for having traffic lights that are much more sensitive to traffic flows so that when there is nothing in the other lane one is not waiting.
  Some of those measures can be achieved through the Bill and some at a local authority or London-wide level; others can happen already. It is clearly a good thing that we have a Bill through which some of those changes can be achieved, but I hope that the Government remember that safer traffic and environmentally sound traffic is as important as speedier and better managed traffic, and that they will all be equally high priorities for the

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  Government nationally, as I hope they will be in London in the years ahead.
  8.6 pm
  Mr. Parmjit Dhanda: I would not quite describe the last four or five hours as a rollercoaster, but we have certainly been on something of a journey, not least with the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) and his 10-point plan—I think that it was 10 points; I may have switched off after 10—including going through red lights when he is turning left, with the hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. Green) and his campaign with the News of the World to scrap as many speed cameras as he can, and with my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Kidney) as we drove around the west midlands together for 15 minutes or so.
  Unfortunately, my contribution will not be as exciting. It will be short and focus on one specific area that has been mentioned by the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. Allan), the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young) and my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes, North-East (Brian White), because we are anoraks to a degree when it comes to technology.
  First, I draw the attention of the House to my entry in the Register of Members' Interests. The Bill fundamentally concerns congestion on our roads, but it will affect other areas as well, one of which is the telecommunications industry. I am secretary of the all-party group on telecommunications and a member of Connect, the union for professionals in telecommunications.
  The industry has some concerns about aspects of the Bill, which I am sure will be fleshed out in Committee, although I hope that the Secretary of State's remarks earlier will help the industry to realise that some of its fears are not necessarily matters for concern. Many of the powers involved have been around since the Transport Act 2000.
  Before dealing with the telecommunications aspects of the Bill, it is worth highlighting the three main aspects of the debate. First, there are the principal causes of congestion. Secondly, there is the question of which of those can be addressed through legislation—many aspects of congestion cannot be so addressed, although it can help. Much of the problem concerns people's mindset and their desire to drive cars, to own more cars and to drive vehicles in which they are the only occupants. The third issue is how we can measure effectively the success of the Bill's proposals.
  Let us take a closer look at the principal causes of congestion. I have received some statistics that have been widely circulated; I know that Opposition Members have also received them. The Secretary of State talked about statistics on congestion and delays on trunk roads that showed that 65 per cent. of traffic congestion is caused by traffic volume or the number of cars on the road, which is linked to people's desire to have more vehicles and use cars rather than to travel by rail, bus, bicycle or on foot. According to those Government figures, 25 per cent. of congestion is caused by accidents and incidents, and 10 per cent. by street
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  works. A figure as low as 10 per cent., even if it is relates specifically to delays on trunk roads, as he said, is not an excuse for ignoring street works. It is right for the Bill to tackle the problem, but it must take an holistic approach. It is important to remember that a single piece of legislation is not a miracle cure and will not wipe out congestion. In addition to legislating, we must change people's mindset and get them to think about the consequences of their decisions, whether the automobile is the right mode of transport and whether they can find other ways of getting to work. We must assist them in their decisions by taking action ourselves on public transport.
  It is right for the Bill to focus on the management of motorway incidents, traffic management, the control of street works and the civil enforcement of measures on driving and parking offences. One problem that has not been commented on concerns the fact that many roads in our constituencies, including mine, have become a patchwork quilt of repairs after utility companies have dug up the road. I welcome the £5,000 fines that can be levied on utilities that do not repair the roads properly. That causes not just the inconvenience of congestion but discomfort from the bumpy rides that people have to endure. Barnwood avenue in my constituency is a good example of that.
  We must take great care to ensure that measures intended to reduce congestion do not have negative consequences on other public services such as the telecoms industry, which other hon. Members and I have mentioned. Britain's roads provide a thoroughfare, not just for the telecoms industry but for many other essential services. The maintenance of high standards in services such as gas, electricity, water and telecommunications requires street works if their infrastructure is to be improved.
  Broadband targets have been mentioned. I hope that the assurances given by the Secretary of State will make a difference to the telecommunications companies that have lobbied hon. Members, including me, but the detail of the Bill's proposals remains to be fleshed out in Committee. If there is a trade-off between regulatory measures to reduce congestion and the effective provision of services to consumers, we must strike the right balance. Problems will arise in many of our constituencies as a result of regeneration programmes, which require street works if new housing, including social housing, and retail outlets are to have enhanced communications, energy and water services. I hope that special consideration will be given in Committee to the regeneration programmes that are under way, and the intensive work that is done by the utilities.
  A specific problem relating to the telecommunications industry has not yet been mentioned. We need to bear in mind the practical problems associated with completion of the network. Construction has been completed on much of the network, and work now needs to focus on connecting particular customers. Such work is inevitably conducted with little forward notice, which restricts the scope for extensive planning and co-ordination. Companies involved in such work already have a commercial imperative to carry it out as quickly as possible, but if we introduce legislation that makes that more difficult and

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  hinders their responsiveness to customers, our constituents may not thank us. We need to bear that in mind during the passage of the Bill.
  After close inspection of the Bill, I believe that measures to tackle those responsible for problems arising from street works have been in place since the Transport Act was passed in 2000. The Bill will result in a single, more cohesive response to those problems. In Committee, I hope that we will look in more detail at the needs of big regeneration projects and the issues that affect the telecommunications industry, particularly as the network is close to completion. If we manage to get those provisions right, particularly given all the other measures in the Bill, we will make a significant difference to reducing congestion on all our streets.
  8.17 pm
  Mr. Robert Key: In deciding whether to oppose the Bill, my tests have been quite simple. Will its provisions make a genuine difference to road safety across the country? Will they make a genuine difference to the economic performance and success of our country? Will they make a difference to the road safety figures and economic life of my constituency? Will they make a difference to the quality of life of people in Salisbury who endure daily gridlock as they try to get to work? Will they make a difference to people in the villages in my constituency who find it increasingly difficult to get into Salisbury and park there, and whose local authorities are frustrated in their pursuit of perfectly sensible plans agreed with the Government to alleviate traffic management problems and do what is required of them under clause 16? I shall return to that later.
  I have come to the conclusion that I shall not oppose the Bill because, as I said to the Secretary of State earlier, it includes many commendable provisions. However, I am happy to sign up to the reasoned amendment tabled by my right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the Opposition and others, because the Bill fails to address the most serious causes of congestion. A key problem is the fact that there is no longer enough road capacity for our level of economic activity in this country. The local transport settlement announced in a written answer on the last day on which Parliament sat before Christmas was a serious setback for effective traffic management in my Salisbury constituency, as I shall seek to explain.
  I accept that the Department of Transport was born of necessity and died of exhaustion in 1997, when it became part of the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions. The Department for Transport has been born again, and I wish it well. The Bill includes some fundamental provisions that have not been properly explored, although they have been touched on, including the novel concept that someone who is not a constable may stop traffic on the public highway. That is a very important power, and the public need to understand what is about to happen. We are all familiar with the lollypop lady—an example of a civilian employed by a local education authority who has the power to stop a vehicle for a very limited and specific purpose. The Police Reform Act 2002 contained provision allowing the police to direct certain employees of local authorities to stop traffic on a public highway in certain circumstances, but the scope of that power was
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  very limited and largely related to road traffic regulations, construction and vehicle inspectorate checking and so on.
  Last autumn, however, I came across the London Local Authorities Bill, which came to this House from another place, and noticed clause 9, which is entitled "Vehicle emissions testing: stopping of vehicles". I was unhappy about that provision. A decade ago, when I held the office now occupied by the Under-Secretary, the hon. Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Mr. Jamieson), and was Minister for Roads and Traffic, there was a fierce debate in the then Department of Transport about all the issues that we are discussing tonight. That included discussion about the extent to which the police could be left to do better things and the suggestion that civilians could perfectly well take on certain functions such as stopping vehicles to check them.
  At that time, on the basis of representations received from a number of different authorities and people, including the police, the Department decided not to proceed. The reasons were straightforward. We were told that the public had confidence in the police and were used to the police stopping them and instructing them to go to the side of the road, whether to direct them around an accident or whatever else. For a very long time, there has been a presumption in our country that no one except a constable has the right to stop people on the public highway. It was put to me and my Secretary of State that there were genuine fears that burglars, thieves, rapists and even terrorists would take advantage of such a power and dress up in a uniform that appeared to be a security officer's uniform, and that that possibility was very dangerous and a risk not worth taking. I find it strange that, a decade later, when the risks from terrorism are so much greater, it should be decided that the danger of abuse is not very serious after all.
  On the question of uniforms, as part of the debate in the Department of Transport a decade ago, I was taken to visit the Dartford bridge, or "Le Crossing", as we now have to call it under French ownership. Those who made the visit saw the security officers employed by the bridge company, who looked just like Metropolitan police officers. They had little silver numbers on their shoulders and wore black ties and blue shirts. People driving over the bridge obviously thought that they were police officers and were inclined to do what they said. Of course, they were not police officers; they merely gave the impression that they were. I am not saying that anyone was trying to do anything illegal or underhand. Indeed, the arrangement was made with the full co-operation of the police forces either side of the bridge, who thought it a good idea that they did not have to do the job. Nevertheless, the answer at that time remained that applying that policy to the public highways was a risk not worth taking.
  I pursued my concern about the provision by the simple expedient of exercising my right to object to the London Local Authorities Bill until I was satisfied that the authorities concerned, and indeed the House, had given the matter proper consideration. Of course, the Bill was considered in Committee both in another place and in this House. Some of the issues were discussed, although not in any particular detail, but I wanted to check up some points with one or two people before I withdrew my objection. I wrote to the Minister, and the

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  Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. McNulty), replied in a letter dated 16 December. He was not very enthusiastic:
  "The Department was consulted about this provision and has expressed no strong views on it…I know that there are those who are cautious about giving powers to stop to civilians—and this is why the powers that are available to our enforcement staff in the Vehicle Operator Services Agency are currently on trial."
  So no conclusion has yet been reached. He continued:
  "However, I hope that we will be able to demonstrate both to the police and to the public and vehicle operators that giving powers to stop to particular civilian groups with enforcement responsibilities is a sensible use of resources. I also hope we will be able to show that, in practice, this idea carries with it no real drawbacks. I hope this is helpful."
  Yes, it was helpful. At least I knew that the Government had at least considered the matter and were aware of the terms of the Bill.
  I also wrote to the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis, from whom I have yet to receive a response. If he says that the Metropolitan police are perfectly happy with the measure and see no difficulty, and if the House properly considers this particular matter on Second Reading and in Committee, where the issues can be properly looked at, I will withdraw my objections to the London Local Authorities Bill.
  I am not sure that the Bill before us goes far enough to address traffic management issues, as it seems to leave out a lot. For example, it does not have anything to say about motor cycles, but the motor cycling fraternity is very important. I know that, historically, the guardians of public policy in the Department for Transport have been opposed to motor cyclists because they consider them to be dangerous. That was always the case. The Minister shakes his head, and he is right to do so. As the relevant Minister, I went for a few rides on motor bikes and saw the experience from the riders' point of view. Eventually, we came around to encouraging motor cyclists because motor cycles were environmentally friendly and took up so much less space. I am glad to say that we introduced the first experiments and trials in which motor cycles were allowed to travel along bus lanes in certain cities. That was very successful and I wish that it could happen much more; it is a very sensible idea. I would like traffic management to take greater account of motor cycles.
  The same is true of cyclists. The humble bicycle is increasingly important. I endorse what has been said about cyclists in Milton Keynes and about the problem of a lack of provision for specific funding. Of course, there is now a presumption in local transport packages that an element will be spent on bicycles. I am glad to say that in Nottingham, I think in 1994 or 1993, I introduced the first ever Government cycling policy; indeed, that was an appropriate city in which to do so. Traffic management and pedestrians, taken together, are also a very important subject. Although we are assured by the road research laboratory and others that it is possible for bicycles and pedestrians to go together, such combinations have to be carefully planned in congested city centres.
  I suppose that I should declare an interest at this point as president of the Salisbury plain branch of the
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  Institute of Advanced Motorists, from which I am never short of advice about the impact of traffic management—or the lack of it—on driving habits and conditions in and around Salisbury.
  Clause 16 deals with network management duties. It is all very well imposing new duties on local authorities, but without adequate resources enabling them to fulfil their obligations, not a lot will happen. The big issue in clause 16 is whether traffic management plans can be properly implemented. I want to stiffen the resolve of Ministers in the Department for Transport, to strengthen their hand with the Treasury, and to encourage them like mad to stick to the agreement on the Salisbury transport package that we had reached, under the guidance of the Government office for the south-west, when the Government, sadly and misguidedly, decided in July 1997 to cancel the Salisbury bypass. Salisbury desperately needs a bypass, and we are now seeing the results of that decision. We agreed to put together a sensible, carefully phased traffic management plan, much of which would conform completely with the Bill. It was an integrated and balanced policy that included five park-and-ride sites, one of which is up and running and two of which are out to tender. Now we find that even the Government office for the south-west is embarrassed because funds have been frozen; and it looks horribly as though we are not going to make any progress and the whole thing will fall apart.
  Just before Christmas, I had a word with both Under-Secretaries, who have attended assiduously throughout the debate, and I know that they are happy to look at the matter. Having been in their position, I do not believe in conspiracy theories; but I do believe in cock-ups, and I think that this is a cock-up. [Interruption.] Well, some of us have been there. Seriously, I ask the Minister to consider seeing me, perhaps with some of my councillor colleagues, to consider carefully the problem of Salisbury, because its transport settlement fits so well with what he is trying to achieve in the Bill. If we fail to deliver for the people of Salisbury, that will be a failure for the Government, for it was they who made the proposal and my councillors who courageously put party prejudice aside and said, "Yes—gulp—we'll sign up to this because it is in the interests of the whole community of Salisbury". I hope very much that we will not fail at this late stage.
  Another issue is that of mobile safety camera units and the enforcement of speed limits through cameras. As an experienced motorist, I believe that one is either breaking the speed limit or one is not. It is idle to argue, "It was a perfectly clear road, officer—there was no traffic about, it was late at night, and I was sober; but, darn, the cameras were flashing." That is not a rational argument. There is a reason for speed limits and for imposing the law. In my judgment, speed cameras have undoubtedly done far more good than harm. Yes, they can be a real menace to people, but I hope that the Government will not weaken. They should be sensible, however, where it can be shown that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ashford (Mr. Green) explained earlier, cameras have been sited in the wrong places for the wrong reasons. We can all agree with that. If there is evidence of the indiscriminate placing of those cameras, that will break the trust between the public and the police, which is very damaging and should not happen.

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  The public often do not realise how far ahead of us the police have got in detecting and deterring crime through the use of cameras. Last summer, I spent some time with the special constabulary in my constituency, who are particularly useful in assisting the regular constabulary in traffic enforcement matters. Operating in conjunction with the Wiltshire constabulary, the specials manned a white van mobile safety unit. I was hugely impressed—not only by the technology, but by the approach and attitude of the policemen and women who carried out those duties. What is achieved by those vans would be unimaginable even a decade ago. I learned that in Northamptonshire, which has been pioneering in this respect, overall crime detection has soared to hitherto unheard of levels. The cameras in the van can identify a vehicle that is coming towards its rear, and a signal is transmitted via a satellite up-link to the police national computer. The response is either to give the all clear, so nothing happens, or to set off an alarm that immediately tells the police on the ground that the vehicle is wanted in connection with a crime, a robbery, a speeding offence, lack of insurance, lack of tax, or whatever. That has undoubtedly given a degree of security to communities around the country that was not there before the so-called dreaded speed camera was introduced. The surveillance does not stop there. It is quite noticeable around the Churchill way in Salisbury, the inner ring road—the sad temporary fix for a proper bypass that was constructed in the 1960s—where one sees the Highways Agency cameras tracking the whole of that route and able to read the vehicle number plates and more.
  In the control room at the headquarters of the Wiltshire constabulary in Devizes, I have seen the CCTV cameras operated by the district council in Salisbury, Amesbury and Wilton, which can pan in and read the tax disc on a vehicle that is driving along a road, to see whether it is out of date. The technology is remarkable. There is one thing that astonishes me: if a Conservative Government had done that, we would never have got away with it, because of all the civil liberties arguments—"How dare you? Human rights!" We would not have done it. We could not have achieved it. Whether the public do not know the level of surveillance they are under, or whether Labour is no longer old Labour and is new Labour and does not mind about civil liberties, I am not sure. I leave that judgment to others. Although there is always a balance to be struck in terms of civil liberties, the use of cameras not only in traffic management, but in policing techniques and security has come on apace, to the advantage of the community as a whole.
  I was delighted to hear what the Secretary of State said about road accident clearance. I hope that the point, which was echoed by my right hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young), about the role of coroners can be addressed, as that is a sticking point.
  In conclusion, the way in which hazards have been engineered out of our roads is remarkable. As usual, it is a combination of common sense and good design. I endorse what my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) and others said about that. Of course, designing roads is hugely important and has developed remarkably and must continue to do so, in conjunction with the enormous advantage that we have
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  gained from the way in which new technology can be used to help us achieve safety. That includes overhead gantries, a concept that I recall introducing on to the M25; variable speeds on motorways and trunk roads, which I was delighted to put my name to as Minister for Roads and Traffic a decade ago on the M25, and which, in a perfect world, would be the solution to many problems; and ramp metering, which has had a hugely positive impact round the midlands box, for example. Those are instances of new technology being used and improved all the time. A further example is real-time public transport information at bus shelters and so on.
  Engineering out the hazards is one aspect, and the Bill should ensure that more attention is given to that, through the appointment of local authority traffic officers. Perhaps the biggest thing of all is our attitude to speed as road users. Anyone who has driven in the United States of America will know that there is a completely different and relaxed attitude to driving there. One does not bother to change lanes—what is the point with a seven-lane highway, a big car, a 55 mph speed limit and traffic cops with guns at every turn on the highway? One just does not speed or change lanes. One behaves more sensibly.
  That is the sort of attitude we need to encourage in this country. It does not profit us very much if we drive at 80 mph on a motorway for a few miles. If we had kept at 70 mph, we might have got there 30 seconds later. When we come to the end of the motorway, we will have got there quicker and will have longer to wait to get through the bottleneck that was caused.
  That is another point in favour of speed cameras. People wonder about the purpose of a speed camera on a straight road without any congestion. One purpose is to ensure constant traffic flows along roads, because that makes the best use of the capacity of the road. If we think differently about speed as drivers, just as we now think differently about drinking and driving, and just as we tend to think differently now about smoking, that will be the most effective way in which we can improve traffic management and road safety. It comes back to human behaviour. There will always be tearaways and boom boys. There will always be people chasing each other, as there were when I was on a road near Salisbury last Saturday evening. They were behaving in the most appallingly dangerous manner at only 4 o'clock in the afternoon. Changing human behaviour is the best way in which we can influence traffic management.
  The Bill will do no harm, and it might do some good. I suspect, therefore, that although I shall vote in favour of the reasoned amendment, it will get into Committee, where a great deal of work will need to be done on it before it comes back here. I hope that it will really make a difference to my constituents and to the whole country.
  8.40 pm
  John Mann: It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Salisbury (Mr. Key), who gave the best advocacy of the Government's proposals that we have heard so far in this debate. I do not know whether he has journeyed towards new Labour, or whether new Labour has journeyed towards him. In any case, the bridge across is there, should he wish to

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  continue his journey, following such an informed and articulate analysis of the use of technology. It was most apposite to the debate.
  I thank the Secretary of State for his kind suggestion that I sit on the Bill Committee. Unlike some of the more reticent Members who have spoken from the Opposition Benches, I believe that it is always an honour humbly to serve, and I look forward to doing so, should the Whips have taken note of that suggestion. A puff of white smoke will emerge from Worksop town hall to signify that my name has been added to the roll-call of those putting in time working on the detail of the Bill.
  The single biggest contribution that the Government have made to tackling congestion is the decision that they made about 18 months ago to get rid of the three roundabouts on the A1 in Nottinghamshire. That decision was not taken by the previous Labour Government—the Callaghan Government—or by any of the five subsequent Conservative Governments since the issue was first debated in 1970. The decision was finally taken following a visit to my constituency by the then Transport Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Warley (Mr. Spellar). When he saw the situation, he decided to spend the necessary money. The difference that that will make to the local economy in my constituency will be worth more than £10 million a year in terms of the profitability of local businesses.
  In terms of the quality of life of the people who can now journey either up and down the A1 or—in the case of many of my constituents—across it, the savings in their average journey times will be astronomical. There will also be a reduction in the pollution currently caused by cars stopping and starting at the roundabouts near the villages of Blyth, Harworth and Bircotes. For those living there, this decision represents a significant and timely change that will reduce congestion significantly.
  Just this week, we are witnessing the removal of the second lot of road humps from Manton in my constituency that were unwisely put in by the county council following guidance from the early 1990s, especially the 1994 guidance. The guidance failed to take into account the presence of on-street parking. In its wisdom, the county council, like many others, stuck road humps into areas that had previously had high accident rates, including mining estates. Until the mid-to-late 1990s, those estates had had long roads with not many cars on them, because previous generations of miners had lived and worked in the village and not required cars to get to work. The local Manton pit, at which 2,500 Manton residents worked until it was arbitrarily shut down in 1992, was within walking distance of their homes. There was no car park at the pit for the locals; everyone walked to work. Of course, cars appeared as people had to find work further afield, but we found that the inflection on the road humps did not work when cars were parked each side of them.
  There are no garages or drives at most houses in most mining villages, so the presence of the cars, which were newly acquired to allow people to work further afield, meant that the road humps lined the middle of the street. That meant that emergency service vehicles—as I said
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  earlier, the ambulance service was not consulted on this—could not traverse the humps in the way that they were designed to do and the humps were a total disaster.
  I am pleased to say, however, that that guidance has changed and that, wisely, the vast majority of the road humps, including the second lot, have been dug out this very week, much to the delight of local residents. That is not an anti-road safety issue, but one of pedestrians, residents and motorists coming together to produce a coherent and sensible road management policy. My question to the Minister is this: where in the Bill does it say who will take responsibility locally for the outcome in relation to edicts that come in guidance notes from the Department for Transport, which in this case were implemented wrongly and absurdly and were applied by the county council in circumstances in which they would not work, although I commend the Department and the Government for their well meaning attempt to achieve road safety? If that is not clear, an amendment is required to ensure that someone locally takes precise responsibility.
  On speed cameras, although I will not repeat anything from the excellent contribution of the hon. Member for Salisbury, there is an additional point. We in Nottinghamshire have had to wait, but my constituency, following a vigorous campaign, now has speed cameras, although that required seven deaths over about 18 months on the A631 and there was tremendous all-party resistance to it in the county council. One wonders whether declarations of interest should have been made and why some of those people opposed their introduction.
  In that context, who should be responsible for saying, "Here is a road that clearly meets the criteria but has no speed cameras"? Having such a person would ensure that my local residents could get what they are crying out for—safer roads. Some contributions on speed cameras sounded rather dated, because the new cameras that we have are digital. Digital cameras do not result in people being fined just because they went 2 mph over the limit when passing a particular camera, although people who brake to slow down and then speed up will get a fine, because the cameras can monitor cars over the length of a road. Also, the stretch of road being monitored between various cameras can be varied so that people do not know they are being filmed.
  What is happening has been widely publicised among local residents and we have found that all the locals are going below the speed limit, which has been rightly reduced to 50 mph. We have safer roads. That is popular with the local community and we are making good use of the technology. Who will be responsible for ensuring that no county council can fail fulfil its responsibilities for introducing such speed cameras?
  On the A638 at Scrooby and Barnby Moor, the local residents are demanding speed cameras. It seems to me that the right for the local community to say, "We are the ones who are living with the speed, so we should determine what we have outside our front door," is missing from the Bill. If the Minister requires a further example, I invite him to visit me at home. On the A620, my local road in the constituency, there have been four deaths in three separate accidents in the past six months, but because none of the deaths occurred at precisely the same point it would be excluded in terms of the specific requirement that gives the county council a get out—it

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  can say, "We'll not be having speed cameras or even a speed camera on this road." However, local residents would rather have safer roads for us to drive on.
  Of course, many of those victims were children, who were in the back of cars that cut into large roads as people went about their everyday business. They are all too often the victims of our failure to take appropriate action. I hope that the Minister will provide clarification on that.
  Australia was cited as an example. When I was there in the summer, I asked Australian parliamentary colleagues why everyone drove so slowly. The answer was clear: they drive slowly because they do not want to get the very large fines that come automatically when excess speed is recorded. Everybody therefore drives slowly, safely and more sensibly.
  I am keen to hear from the Minister about the issue of gas. I fully support many of the details in the Bill relating to an efficient road management system, but there is a dilemma. The Bracebridge estate in my constituency consists of 90 pensioner bungalows. In mining villages, pensioners have tended to stay with solid fuel for two reasons: first, empathy for the product that they mined in their lifetime; and, secondly, the concessionary fuel allowance from the National Coal Board. Therefore, while everyone else has tended to convert to gas, pockets exist—in this case, 90 pensioner properties—that are without gas. It will be necessary to dig under the main road to connect to the gas main. Transco and its competitors may use that as an excuse to charge an exorbitant additional price to connect those pensioners' homes to gas supplies. That is one of the smaller ambiguities that are present in any legislation, but discussions should take place with the Department of Trade and Industry about how we overcome that ambiguity.
  On the issue of road surfacing, one of my suggestions, which no doubt is uncontroversial, relates to the adoption of roads. There are several new estates in my constituency. I am always delighted to welcome new residents, and I am obliged to keep doing so because so many problems exist in completing the contracts to get the roads made-up. In the context of re-surfacing, it seems to me that the adoption of roads, and how that ties in with utilities and house builders, could be worked into this Bill. That seems both logical and sensible—it fits with the sprit of the Bill—and it will solve what seems to be an increasing problem, whereby builders, who are making so much money on house sales, are prepared to delay for significant periods the small deposits that they pay to the highway authorities to guarantee the completion of made-up roads.
  Similarly, to give a smaller example, Mill street in Worksop has not been adopted in 80 years—the street is shorter in length than this Chamber, yet it has not been made up—which causes tremendous problems for local residents. The county council has repeatedly been unwilling, for no good reason, to make it up. Including in the Bill an obligation for the adoption of such roads, which have existed for a significant period but, for whatever anomalous reason, do not have the tarmac and the service that goes with it, would be a tiny expenditure for local authorities. In terms of equity and quality of life for those in the small pockets concerned,
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  however—again, an undue number of them are in mining constituencies—that would be a useful amendment.
  Mr. Drew: One of the main problems with the adoption of roads occurs when builders go bankrupt. Usually, insufficient money has been held back, and the local authority sees no obligation to adopt the road. That problem bedevils parts of my constituency, and I am sure it occurs in all constituencies.
  John Mann: Absolutely. There are bankruptcies, and also protracted arguments about who is responsible. We now see a greater opportunity to solve a problem that blights parts of our constituencies and causes us unnecessary work. It is not that we are unwilling to do the work, but such problems ought to be resolved by those who are making large amounts of money out of new building.
  Scaffolding and skips are a problem on mining estates and properties. It is all very well when a nice semi-detached house has a drive, or a tower block—like the one where I live, just across the river, when I am in London—has some land at the front. Scaffolding and skips can be placed a good distance from the road. Indeed, there is a skip in front of my flat at the moment. A property in a mining village, however, may have no drive, and it may have no garden if it is in a terrace. The price may be high in such cases. We must ensure that in a terraced cul-de-sac, for instance, no exploitation takes place, not least on the part of local authorities who might see this as a potential cash cow—a way of filling their coffers that could work unduly against the interests of people living in what are generally much cheaper properties.
  The concept of a parking attendant becoming a civil enforcement officer is, I feel, a major issue. I have no intrinsic problem with it, but the loophole in the current law could be replicated many times, and I do have a problem with that. The Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 makes no provision for the agents of a local authority to act on behalf of the authority. Although section 33(7) refers to the use of agents to manage car parking facilities, the Act does not authorise a third party to pursue action through the criminal justice system. The Road Traffic Act 1991 decriminalised parking offences and brought them within the scope of civil enforcement, which I think was sensible. I commend those responsible for the move.
  I have raised a good deal of local publicity over a problem in my constituency, which is clearly a problem throughout the country. It relates to private operators of local authority car parks. A dispute over a fine—over whether someone has or has not paid or whether he has a ticket, for instance—is a civil dispute in the case of a private car park. If a car park is run by a local authority, it is possible to consult and put pressure on democratically accountable representatives to ensure that it is run properly, but there is a problem if the car park is run privately on behalf of a local authority. Woe betide anyone who chooses to park in the Bawtry car park, which is run not by a district or county council but by a town council. Well meaning as it is, bless its cotton socks, the council—advised by its part-time clerk—has signed an agreement with a private contractor in Bawtry for its new pay-and-display car park, which is causing a few problems.

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  In a written answer given on 16 December, the Under-Secretary of State told me:
  "It is an established legal principle that a power delegated to one body may not be further delegated in the absence of express provision or necessary implication."—[Official Report, 16 December 2003; Vol. 415, c. 794W.]
  There is a loophole in the law and it may be worsened unless it is closed by the Bill. The private operator is using the threat of criminal, not civil, action to intimidate people into paying car park fines.
  Thirty-six cases were taken to court. I made four representations to the court. Fortunately for the 36 people, my first representation—that the tickets issued were invalid—was accepted by the judge, so all 36 did not have to pay their fines. Unfortunately for everyone else, that meant that the judge did not need to issue any edict in relation to the other cases.
  My second representation concerned the fact that there is no provision allowing a private operator to take people to the criminal courts on behalf of a local authority. I would go further. Nothing in existing legislation allows private operators to go to civil courts where they are running a local authority car park. That is solely the local authority's prerogative and responsibility.
  This is fundamental. Parking attendants, who could be renamed and re-empowered as civil enforcement officers, employed by a private company and paid by results, may be rather exuberant. When all the money from fines goes to the private operator, there is an incentive for fines to be levied. Letters saying that people will be criminally liable and will be taken to the criminal courts, despite the fact that operators have never won in any court with any case, mean that people tend to pay. The £20 or £30 fine becomes a £75 or £100 fine. People are paying £100 routinely in order to avoid what they fear will be a criminal record.
  It is no good me saying to them that I do not think that the private operators have the powers to do that because most people are fearful of the consequences of going to court. That is not equitable. That is not a good way of getting public support. There is a loophole in the law that will be worsened by these people becoming civil enforcement officers. That loophole needs to be tightened.
  A letter from the solicitors of a private company talks of "criminal liability" and commencing "criminal proceedings". That is the language that solicitors are using. The Bill should deal with that because it is totally inequitable. Let me give a couple of examples to illustrate the problem. We need to keep the public on our side. There are two types of ticket machine in essence. One type has an internal heater: the tickets come out dry. The other type, which is cheaper, does not. Therefore, the ticket comes out damp. People stick a ticket on their windscreen and it falls off. Surprise, surprise, the vast majority of cases that I have come across are of people who bought tickets, were not over their time but whose tickets fell off because they were wet—it was raining when they bought them. When they show the ticket to the private operator, he still attempts to fine them and threatens them with criminal litigation in the magistrates court. People are terrified into paying,
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  despite the fact that they owe not a penny because the fault is in the machine. I am sure that it is purely accidental that the machines do not have the internal heater, despite the fact that they are outdoor machines. If we are going to have public support, we cannot afford to allow such things to happen.
  Nor can we afford to allow a disabled woman with cystic fibrosis, who is carrying an oxygen machine in a car park with a slope and who has parked where she can get out of the car without the wheel chair rolling away, to be given a parking ticket while carrying the oxygen machine. I am more than happy for her to go—I will represent her if necessary—to the civil courts and to argue her case but it is wholly wrong and improper for criminal proceedings to be threatened. The concept of having a civil enforcement officer in uniform who threatens criminal proceedings is even more damaging. There is an important loophole in the law, which does not apply just to my constituents. It is a scandal, and it needs to be addressed in the Bill.
  There is also the question of the parking adjudicator. The adjudicator can be approached if the car park in question is a local authority car park, but not if it is run by a private operator. That is absolute nonsense; the parking adjudicator needs to have a proper remit. The Bill needs to close that loophole in the law.
  My final concern relates to drug testing. Drug testing at the roadside where accidents have occurred is important, and will be increasingly necessary in future. Such testing must not be impaired by any changes introduced by the Bill. That would be very detrimental, and the Minister will doubtless be able to reassure me on that point. It is important to raise that issue at this stage, and with that thought in mind, I commend the Bill to the House.
  9.5 pm
  Mr. David Drew: One advantage of speaking at the end of a very long Second Reading debate is that one can sweep up most of the ideas that have been expressed. One can dispose of much of one's own speech because it has already been dealt with, and concentrate on a small number of issues that, hopefully, can be covered under the principles of the legislation, even if they cannot be included in the detailed discussions in Committee. I am not necessarily putting myself forward for membership of that Committee, but given the number of Labour Members who have spoken today, there will be considerable competition to get on to it. Indeed, this is an important Bill that deals with an issue on which many of us can wax lyrical. That could be because some of us were councillors in previous incarnations, or because, as all our postbags show, the Bill deals with a subject of great concern to our constituents.
  My own constituency of Stroud is an interesting case in point, in that we have achieved some notoriety of late. It was said at the Christmas brass band concert a couple of years ago that we had become the roadworks capital of the United Kingdom. It was virtually impossible to move in Stroud without hitting a set of traffic lights or some other barrier to getting around. In preparing for today's debate, I asked the county council to give me some figures on what it considers an appropriate number of road openings. It said that some 4,000 road

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  openings a year would be appropriate for an area the size of Stroud, but that in 2002–03, we achieved the grand total of 6,595. So if nothing else, we are way above our average. Perhaps people will look back on that claim in due course and think about it.
  I know the reason for such figures. A great deal of infrastructure redevelopment needs to take place, and I welcome such redevelopment. I am not here to attack the utilities. My hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Kidney) received the same letter that I received from Severn Trent Water, which takes a slightly different view of the importance of this legislation and the need to introduce it now. However, we will enter into discussions with the utilities, because if Stroud is anything to go by, they are getting a bad press. They are seen to be responsible for a great many road openings, and not just those relating to emergencies. Of course, we accept that emergencies occur over time, but I am talking about everyday repair and maintenance, which has a major impact. We do not in any way regard the public authorities as immune in this regard, and one good thing that this legislation will hopefully lead to is greater co-ordination.
  I know that there have been criticisms from both sides about the timidity of the legislation. The problem of litigious excess has focused the mind of my own local authority, and we need to be aware of the possible ramifications of the Leicestershire county council v. Transco case. Neither the Minister nor I can comment on it, but the history of that case shows that previous attempts to legislate for street works or road management have not always proved their worth when tested in the courts. We have to hope that this time the legislation will work and conflicts will be amicably resolved. Ultimately, we are here to try to secure the best way of moving cars forward as easily and expeditiously as possible.
  I shall not speak for long because I know that the hon. Member for Vale of York (Miss McIntosh) wants to contribute to the debate. However, I want to take a slightly different angle from others who have provided a mixed reception to the Bill on Second Reading. I shall refer to a numerous group who are profoundly affected by what happens on our roads. I refer, of course, to pedestrians and cyclists.
  We sometimes think of roads as the preserve of motorists alone, and forget that some people, because they are too young or too old, cannot drive. Those people are none the less greatly affected by roadworks and our management of our road space, so I make a plea for them. I want to take up their position because we too often ignore them. We have already debated speed cameras, but we need to understand that the majority of the lobbying in favour of having speed cameras on our roads is not from motorists, but from pedestrians living alongside roads. Motorists have views about what speed is appropriate, whether cameras should be installed and whether they have been fairly nicked, but if we are to represent the majority of our constituents, some of whom cannot vote, we must understand that speed causes considerable unpleasantness in some people's lives. Sometimes, as my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody), who I am pleased to see again in her place, said at the outset, speed can kill people.
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  We should regard anything that kills people as an appropriate subject for debate, and not just talk about speed as a minor inconvenience. I was pleased to hear what the hon. Member for Salisbury (Mr. Key) had to say—that people can be delayed in their journeys by 30 seconds or a minute, but if something goes wrong, speed can profoundly affect someone's family for the rest of their lives. It is an important issue that we should not talk glibly about as though it is a case of our being for or against the motorist: it is far more serious than that.
  Another general point is that we have glossed over the differences between more urbanised road space and rural roads. We talk a lot about congestion and the need to move people more quickly around our urban areas, but the reverse is true in rural Britain where people feel that they are the make-waits. When people have suffered from congestion, they often take out their frustration by speeding along country lanes, and we all know that it is impossible to impose general limits other than the national speed limit. Sadly, we have witnessed an increased incidence of death and serious injuries on country roads, which we ignore at our peril. Many constituents in rural areas lobby us continually on that. I accept that some people lobby us one way and those who wear a different hat lobby us another way, but we must try to make a judgment.
  I hope that I did not delay the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso) when I talked about resurfacing rather than the normal way in which we repair roads. I do not want to labour the point, but we too often take a short-term view on the basis that that is how contracts can best be delivered. In the longer term, however, we have terrible road surfaces. Gloucestershire is always asked to estimate the true cost of under-repair on the roads and produces figures such as £140 million. That is pretty meaningless because its measurement is subject to all sorts of questions. However, we all know our roads are in a poor state because we have too often taken a short-term way out that fails to complete the repair once the road has been opened up. If we only thought a bit more about doing repairs properly, perhaps they would not be as expensive as they are thought to be because our roads would not deteriorate at the rate at which they do. I have seen figures in Select Committee reports and from the Government in which lovely graph lines go up and down, but much depends on the grant settlement and the decay of individual roads. I hope that we will look at forcing those who open up roads, whether they come from the public or private sector, to be far clearer about the fact that if they are asked to contribute, they may really have to improve the quality of a road by resurfacing rather than just putting a nice trench down that will last for a year or two and then deteriorate.
  I agree with all who say that the Bill should have been subject to proper scrutiny. Perhaps it is just the time of year, or it may be that the Government felt that they wanted the Bill on the statute book and that there are reasons why that should be done sooner rather than later. As ever, however, we could benefit from trying to tease out some of the problems.
  Hon. Friends and Opposition Members have mentioned the point about empowering people other than police officers to investigate road traffic accidents. saying that we could redeploy those officers to other things. I wish that such matters were so earnestly

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  attended to by police officers that we were actually losing them to them. Sadly, though, we all know of cases in which greater investigation and a will actually to bring offenders to book would have brought at least some satisfaction to those who believe that their loved ones have been sacrificed in vain. Because of a lack of evidence being accrued, people have had paltry sentences and, more often than not, have gone out and offended again. That is unacceptable. Anything that we can do to take these matters more seriously should be done. That is not just a question of formal legal authorities doing more; all hon. Members will have experience of the game that insurance companies play as they try to delay judgment so that they do not have to pay out on behalf of their clients.
  I may be getting away from the Bill itself in saying that, but it is connected to the question whether road safety should be included in the Bill and the way in which we should give people satisfaction if there has, unfortunately, been an accident and, most sadly of all, a fatality. We should give justice. That is the whole basis on which organisations such as RoadPeace work: they feel that justice is not done or seen to be done. We should do anything we can to tighten up.
  As a keen cyclist, I feel that the vast majority of motorists understand their obligations. Cars are dangerous weapons and, if misused, can cause all sorts of problems. A rogue element perpetrates the worst offences and we must do what we can, through this legislation, to combat it.
  9.20 pm
  Miss Anne McIntosh: I am most grateful to the hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew) for allowing me to make one or two points in the remaining time available. I refer to my entry in the Register of Members' Interests—as a member of the RAC Foundation, I sit on the RAC public policy committee. I have also driven six hours from north Yorkshire to take part in the debate.
  I greatly agree with what has been said about traffic officers on both sides of the House and I do not wish to repeat those remarks. My experience over Christmas was that traffic wardens are like London buses—one never sees them or they come in threes. When my husband's vehicle was rammed at high speed on Thirsk market square by another vehicle that disappeared without leaving the customary courtesy note with insurance details, there was no traffic warden in sight. However, on Christmas eve in Thirsk, three traffic wardens were handing out parking fines like sweeties.
  I wish to echo the concerns raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young) and my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (Mr. Key) about uniforms for traffic officers and I am sure that the Minister will wish to address that issue. I am delighted to see him in his place, because we spent many a happy hour together on the Committee considering the Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003 a year ago.
  The Secretary of State for Transport will decide the traffic officers' uniform for England and Wales, and it will be important to ensure that they will be easily
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  identifiable and distinct from their counterparts in Scotland. Many people from the Vale of York, including me, use the A1 as the main artery to access our vacations in Scotland and it will be a problem if no clear distinction can be made between traffic officers in England and those in Scotland. It will also be necessary to distinguish traffic officers from traffic wardens and police officers.
  Clause 13 will provide an extensive power to acquire land. Should there be a major accident or incident on the A1 at the border, it will be important to know if that power extends only to England and Wales or if it includes Scotland, and in what specific circumstances that power would be exercised and to what extent. Like the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody), I think that too many questions remain unanswered by the Bill in its present form.
  The Secretary of State for Scotland will recall from his experience at the Scottish Bar that road traffic incidents are some of the most difficult to deal with. I hope that the Minister will consider an amendment in Committee to ensure that witnesses of a crime on a road that they do not usually frequent are tracked down, even though they do not see signs placed on the road inviting witnesses to come forward. I hope that we can use the Bill to fill that gap in the law.
  I was shocked—as I am sure other members of the Transport Committee were—to learn that the police have only recently drawn up a full handbook on how to deal with road accidents, like their handbook for murder cases. That is a welcome development, although it is long overdue.
  I hope that it will remain the responsibility of uniformed police officers to inform family members that they have lost a loved one or that a loved one has been seriously injured in an accident. Uniformed police officers should exercise that duty. The highways authority should not be allowed to clear the road or take away evidence that could be used in the case.
  Before my recent return to the Transport Committee, it issued an excellent report that drew attention to the fact that tensions could be created between the police officers who currently have responsibility in traffic accident cases and the new traffic officers. I hope that the Minister will explain how his Government imagine that such tensions will be eased.
  Other tensions could arise between the existing breakdown services, which are operated by private firms, and any new procedures that the Government envisage under the provisions of clauses 5 and 9. The Minister shakes his head, but it is not good enough simply to empower the Secretary of State to introduce at a later date draft orders that can be approved by affirmative resolution of the House under clause 8(4). I entirely endorse the Select Committee's conclusions on that point.
  The provisions are not good enough. On Second Reading and in the subsequent detailed scrutiny in Committee, it is the purpose of the House to tease out such details. In that regard, I should be most grateful if the Minister would lend us his ear and confirm the role of the national breakdown services. When the honest motorist has legally licensed and taxed his car, has fully comprehensive insurance and has subscribed at vast

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  expense—normally well over £100—for a full motoring recovery service, will he have the option to call the motorway breakdown service of his choice? From the concerns expressed on both sides of the House, the Minister will realise that there is real anxiety that the new highways authority procedures would enable a traffic officer to nominate for such a motorist any national breakdown service, or even an authority's competing service, and charge the motorist for that facility. That could greatly undermine the excellent services that have been provided by well-established national breakdown services—for well over 100 years in the case of the RAC and the AA. Will the Minister tell us how he expects to ease the apparent tensions both between the new traffic officers and the existing traffic police and, more especially, between the new traffic officers and the national breakdown services? I hope, too, that he will respond to our points about uniforms.
  I am disappointed that the Government have not seen fit to deal with the very real issue of child casualties. Only three weeks ago, before the House rose for the Christmas recess, we heard that child casualties, especially among child pedestrians caught up in accidents, are unacceptably high. I think that the Minister accepted that, so will he admit that it is not only speed that causes many of the injuries and casualties among child pedestrians but that we must also consider the role of fixed speed cameras and—something that has been overlooked for much of the debate—of mobile speed cameras, and vehicle design?
  Although I am delighted that in comparison with the rest of Europe we have a good record on most types of road casualty, I hope that the Government will take the opportunity offered by the Bill to address the unacceptably high figures for child casualties.
  I hope that the Minister will respond to those points and that the House will support the Opposition in our reasoned amendment. If congestion is the problem, the Bill in its present form does not necessarily provide the way forward but will lead to an unacceptably bureaucratic traffic management system.
  9.30 pm
  Mr. Christopher Chope: We have had an excellent debate, and I emphasise the word "debate" because quite often we in the House have a dialogue of the deaf, but there has been a genuine discussion across the Floor this time. It would have been better if no hon. Member with a Scottish constituency had spoken and we had been confined to hearing Members with English or Welsh constituencies because this business affects only England and Wales.
  The debate has also been adorned with first-class contributions from right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House. My right hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young) used his wealth of experience as a former Secretary of State to ask some penetrating questions, such as who is going to pay the bill for all this? If the Government's cavalier approach to administration costs in the Department for Transport is anything to go by, they are not interested in the costs of anything these days. The new limit for administration costs in that Department is now no less than £379 million this year. That is just the bill for administration.
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  My right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) asked fewer questions but made a series of constructive and persuasive proposals—a shopping list that I hope he will be able to pursue in Committee. He should have received encouragement from the fact that the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Simon Hughes), in a rather London-centric speech, agreed with many of his points.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (Mr. Key)—a former Minister for Roads and Traffic—talked about the role of cameras in snooping on road users. Later, I shall draw attention to the fact that the Government are failing to enforce the law, despite the number of cameras and notwithstanding all the snooping that is going on. He also spoke eloquently about the continuing Salisbury traffic nightmare and his support for the motorcycling fraternity.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Vale of York (Miss McIntosh)—a member of the Transport Committee and the RAC—brought some interesting points to the debate, including her plea that we should try to reduce the carnage among children on our roads. Those hon. Members who have had the chance to look at tonight's Evening Standard will have seen a most horrific example of just that, where a six-year-old girl in, I think, Ealing or Southall was mown down and killed on Christmas day. That was perpetrated by someone who had stolen a car and was driving unlawfully in a bus lane—a reminder that it is a mistake to try to separate driving offences and criminal behaviour.
  The hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody), as usual, spoke with authority and effectively damned the Bill with faint praise. The hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Mrs. Lawrence) emphasised the importance of reducing congestion for the rural economy. The hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Kidney) brought to our attention his concerns as the chairman of PACT, and those concerns were echoed by the hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew), who emphasised his concerns about cyclists.
  Mr. Stephen Pound: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Chope: No, I will not give way because the hon. Gentleman has not been present for the whole debate. If he had read tonight's Evening Standard and been present for the whole debate, he would have had the chance to catch your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
  The hon. Member for Milton Keynes, North-East (Brian White) highlighted his concern about the Bill's impact on the development of broadband, and that point was also made by a number of other hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Gloucester (Mr. Dhanda). The hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) took the biscuit in the sense that he demonstrated a knowledge of road humps superior to that of any other hon. Member who participated.
  The Government should be concerned at the serious all-party criticism of the Bill on a number of accounts. There is a lack of pre-legislative scrutiny—an ideal opportunity has been missed. There is a lack of detail in the Bill on several key points, particularly the extra powers for traffic officers and the unanswered question about what will happen to the 550 police who will be

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  displaced. There is also the issue of the Bill's impact on broadband and the extraordinary powers that the Government will take to oust traffic managers where they do not like them when they are working for local authorities.
  Other concerns emphasised by Conservative Members were the lack of a level playing field between utilities and local highway authorities, both contributing to highway disruption, local authority fixed penalty notices being extended to moving traffic offences, and speed cameras being used as revenue raisers and no longer commanding the respect of the motoring public.
  I should like to concentrate on two or three big issues. The Government have hyped the Bill, saying that it is a congestion-busting Bill, yet in the Department for Transport's autumn performance report, published in December 2003, at page 5, we see that the Department admits:
  "The target for congestion will not be met. We are in the process of agreeing a better and more useful measure of congestion."
  The Government have been working on this for some time, because the first target was set in 2000 as a public service agreement to reduce congestion on the inter-urban trunk road network and in large urban areas in England below current levels by 2010 by promoting integrated transport solutions and investing in public transport and the road network. The latter part of that target was removed, so in 2002 we had a fresh target to reduce congestion on the inter-urban trunk road network and in large urban areas in England below 2000 levels by 2010. Yet we are told this autumn that even that target will not be met and that the Government will find a better and more useful measure of congestion.
  I asked the Secretary of State, in a question that should have been answered today because it was a priority written question, what the level of congestion in inter-urban roads and urban roads is against which he intends to achieve a reduction as a result of the Bill. As reducing congestion is supposedly at the heart of the Bill, one would have thought that that would be an easy question for the Department to respond to, but it has failed to do so in a timely way.
  The Department has also failed to respond to another question asking for the Secretary of State's estimate of the proportion of congestion on roads in England and Wales that is caused by poorly planned and lengthy street works carried out by utilities and by or on behalf of highway authorities. He had great fun knocking the 10 per cent. figure in the Opposition's amendment, but if he says that that figure is wrong, let him declare the correct figure. Why has he not done so in response to my parliamentary question due for answer today?
  The second point that I want to emphasise, which was raised by a number of hon. Members tangentially, is the police role in fighting crime. The Motorists Forum report, published in December last year, included a review of the delivery of the road safety strategy and emphasised the link between road traffic offences and other crime. It referred to the North report, which was published in 1988.
  There is a contrast between the approach taken by the Government in the Bill and that of the Road Traffic Act 1991, with which I was privileged to be involved. The
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  latter measure was informed by the North report, which was followed by a public debate on the issues that it raised. This time, the Government have ducked out of that public debate and scrutiny, and have rightly come in for severe criticism from the Select Committee and many others. The North report emphasised the importance of proportionality of enforcement for a wide range of traffic offences, from minor lapses to potentially fatal disregard for the law, and that issue is as relevant now as it was then. Research in 1999 demonstrated the link between people who commit traffic offences and people who commit serious crime. It showed that a third of drivers illegally parked in disabled bays had criminal records. Half had committed road traffic offences and a fifth were of immediate police interest because of suspected connections with unsolved crime. There is therefore a direct link between people who flout the traffic laws and people who, in the strongest sense of the term, are criminals.
  The Government, however, have not taken the opportunity in the Bill to address concerns about rising car crime and lawlessness among those who drive on our roads. Every hour, 300 car crimes are committed at a cost to the nation's drivers of £826 million. Car mugging, in which crooks break into vehicles to steal, has risen by 20 per cent. in the past year to no fewer than 415,000 offences. There are four times as many car muggings as street robberies. The Government's emphasis on dealing with street robberies ignores the plight of motorists, who pay an enormous sum of money as a result of the lawlessness to which they are subject. Nine out of 10 motorists do not believe that the Government are doing enough to fight car crime, and the Bill does nothing to address that.
  The number of people driving without a driving licence is, according to the Minister's figures, between 620,000 and just over 1 million. The number of people without insurance is estimated to be 1.25 million. The number of untaxed vehicles is 1.75 million, and only about half the fines imposed for driving offences are paid. At its worst, the Bill panders to those who enjoy persecuting and humiliating the motoring public. It targets the essentially law-abiding citizen, yet does nothing to tackle the rogues responsible for increased lawlessness on our roads.
  Finally, the Secretary of State has kindly said that I am an expert in the field, so I should like to address speed cameras. The Government have tried to exercise spin on the issue. The answer that I received on 17 December about the eight safety camera partnership areas for which figures are available said that, in 2002, the number of fatalities had increased in four areas, notwithstanding the presence of a safety camera partnership, and had decreased in the other four. That conclusion is not the same as the Government's spin that such partnerships always result in a reduction of fatalities. The Secretary of State said that he was concerned that the safety cameraship—[Laughter.] I am sorry, he said that the safety camera partnerships should comply with his rules. However, his own handbook states:
  "Compliance with these rules and guidelines bears no significance on the detection and enforcement of offences so

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  detected by safety camera operations. To this end, non-compliance with these rules and guidelines by a partnership does not provide for any mitigation in defence for an offence committed by a driver in breach of current UK law."
  Surely, if the Government are concerned about the abuse of the rules and guidelines, they should declare tonight that if in future anybody is caught on a speed camera, but it is shown that that camera is operating in breach of their own guidelines, no penalty should be imposed. That is surely the minimum progress that we should make this evening, and is something on which Members on both sides of the House would agree.
  9.44 pm
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. David Jamieson): This has been a full and thoughtful debate in which there has been support for the Bill in all parts of the House.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew) said that a number of bids had been made by people who wished to serve on the Committee considering the Bill. I am sure that the Whip has taken careful note and marked the contributions that have been made, and that all of us will go to sleep tonight dwelling on the word "cameraship"—a new word that the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope) has put into the English language.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody) made a powerful contribution in which she raised a number of points. I hope that many of them will be addressed in Committee. My hon. Friend the Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Mrs. Lawrence) made a very thoughtful contribution.
  The right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood), with his 10 commandments, made one of the best contributions tonight in terms of presenting good ideas. Perhaps the hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs. May) will note his speech. He may have something to offer, although he seems to be shaking his head; I am not quite sure why.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Kidney) made a helpful and supportive contribution, as he always does in such debates. The right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young), drawing on his long experience in the matters under discussion, made some useful points, and I am sure that many of them will be debated in Committee as well.
  The hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Simon Hughes) spoke of London. My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Mr. Dhanda) expressed well-reasoned support for the Bill. The hon. Member for Salisbury (Mr. Key) made a sensitive and supportive speech and was very much in favour of the Bill, for which I am grateful.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) made some very powerful points about road safety. As always, he was a strong advocate for his constituents. My hon. Friend the Member for Stroud spoke for good sense, as always, and emphasised important issues of road safety. My hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes, North-East (Brian White) made a very thoughtful contribution.
  I hope that the hon. Member for Vale of York (Miss McIntosh) serves on the Committee, so that we can enjoy many a happy hour there together, as we have on
  118
  other Bills. The hon. Member for Christchurch was in danger of sullying the tone of the debate, but we will gloss over that.
  The Bill contains a number of measures with a common aim—ensuring that our national and local road networks are operated as efficiently as possible and safely for the benefit of all road users, including cyclists and pedestrians, who are just as much road users as people in motor vehicles.
  The creation of the traffic officer service for the Highways Agency has arisen from a very thorough review by the agency and the police of their respective roles and responsibilities. It is apparent that transferring some of the traffic management activities on motorways and trunk roads, especially when there are incidents on those roads, would bring considerable benefits. There would be benefits not only for drivers, in terms of fewer and shorter hold-ups and better information about what is happening, but for the police, as the equivalent of 540 police officers would be released for vehicle, road and other crime fighting duties.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich raised the issue of how those extra resources would be used. Of course, it is a matter for the chief constable in each area to decide how any time that has been released from police officers should be used. On a recent visit to the west midlands, where the first trial is to be introduced, I saw that the police there were anxious to use any of the resources released in respect of traffic officers for further crime reduction and tackling crime on the roads, not only including road crime, but where criminals are using the road network in conjunction with other criminality.
  The traffic officer service will be brought together with the new regional control centres, operated jointly by the police and the Highways Agency, which will manage traffic and co-ordinate on-road resources. We intend to roll out the approach progressively, starting in the midlands this year.
  For local authorities, we are introducing a network management duty, so that they carry out all their relevant activities in a way that minimises congestion and disruption. They will be required to appoint a traffic manager. It will be for each authority to decide the traffic manager's precise role, but the manager will be key to achieving the goal of keeping the traffic moving.
  Several hon. Members asked what exactly the role of traffic managers should be. Of course, their precise duties will be a matter for the local authority concerned, and they will be responsible to it. That will in no way diminish authorities' existing duties on safety, the environment and the provision of high-quality public transport, but by drawing together the strands that affect the movement of the network, the service that is provided to all road users will be improved. At the same time, if authorities are not performing their duties properly, it is right that the Government should be able to take action. We would much prefer that authorities improve their performance and manage their networks effectively, but if intervention is necessary the Bill provides for that on the basis of evidence, transparency and proportionality.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich raised several points that encompass many of those that were made by hon. Members on both sides of the House,

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  and quoted the important statistic that four times more people are killed on our roads each year than are murdered. That further focuses our attention on the need to drive down the number of casualties on our roads. Safety is key to the measures in the Bill.
  Several Members asked about traffic officers. Of course, they will be trained for the appropriate level of activity that they have to undertake. Their uniforms will be clearly distinguishable from those of the police: they will be marked, "Traffic Officer", and carry the Highways Agency logo. As for the role that they might perform if they were the first people to arrive at an incident, they could provide first aid or give information to road users further back on the road to avoid their running into the incident as well. The kind of extra power that may be appropriate in future is the checking of overweight vehicles on some parts of the road network.
  I turn now to the contribution of the hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. Green). The period of economic success in the 1980s and 1990s that he talked about must have passed me by. One of the reasons why our transport network is under so much pressure is that now—in the late 1990s and 2000 onwards—we have an economy that is thriving, with 1.5 million more people in work. That has created extra stress on our transport system, which was neglected for years by the Conservative party.
  The hon. Gentleman said that there would be 550 fewer traffic police. That is simply not the case. We will release the time of those 550 police to enable them to carry out other activities, such as tracking down criminals on the roads. They will enforce the law on the roads, not be removed from them.
  The hon. Gentleman uttered another piece of nonsense—let me nail this one—when he said that traffic officers will represent a competing breakdown service on the motorway. He clearly was not listening when the Secretary of State said in his opening speech that that is not the case. They will not provide an alternative breakdown service, but in certain circumstances they may do what the police do now—for example, they may call in contractors to take a vehicle away if no other service is available to do it. The role of the AA and the RAC will of course remain as it is today. Traffic officers will work closely and carefully with all the people who provide such services on the road.
  The hon. Gentleman went on to say that the Bill places in the hands of civilians certain activities for enforcing the law. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State gave credit to the hon. Member for Christchurch for introducing speed cameras. In the 1930s, one of my predecessors in Plymouth, Devonport—Hore-Belisha—had a certain beacon named after him. The Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East (Mr. McNulty) made the suggestion, to which I shall give careful consideration, that the speed cameras should be called Chope cameras. I also give the hon. Gentleman credit for introducing the measure to transfer enforcement for road traffic offences from the police to local authorities. He said on 26 February 1991 in the debate on the Road Traffic Bill:
  "I had in mind that local authority parking attendants could be responsible for enforcing almost all parking regulations within
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  particular designated areas"—[Official Report, 26 February 1991; Vol. 186, c. 817.]
  That was the first time that the matter was mentioned. I do not want to undermine the success of the hon. Gentleman in introducing so many of the things that he now criticises from the position that he currently occupies.
  The hon. Member for Ashford spoke at length about speed cameras, as did a number of other contributors. He said that there is a lot of evidence that cameras are in the wrong place. "A lot of evidence" is not constituted by his constant repetition of a falsehood. In the newspapers he has been quoted as saying that 4,000 cameras were wrongly placed. I noticed that when my hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Mr. Miller) asked him to name one of those 4,000 cameras that were in the wrong place, he could not tell us anything at all. He was totally silent on the matter.
  I can tell the hon. Gentleman that many hon. Members in all parts of the House would be up in arms if we said that we intended to remove the camera from their local community, not least my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw. The A631, the A638 and the A620 may be some of the roads in question.
  I have a challenge for the hon. Member for Ashford, and it is a serious one. On matters of road safety, I should like to think that we had a certain amount of cross-party accord. I am sure he would agree that we want to reduce death and injury on our roads. I hope there is no disagreement on that. If he knows of any speed safety camera in one of the partnership areas that has been placed somewhere where it does not meet the stringent criteria set by my Department, let him provide that evidence. If he does not have the evidence to present to me and to the House, let him be silent for a time and reflect on the number of people, particularly the children and elderly people, whom those cameras have saved.
  Mr. Chope: If my hon. Friend provides such evidence, will the Minister guarantee that any fines imposed as a result of that speed camera will be remitted?
  Mr. Jamieson: If the hon. Member for Ashford can provide evidence that any of those 4,000 cameras do not meet the criteria, we will have the matter investigated. I asked for that eight weeks ago. As yet, nobody has come forward and identified such a camera or site. We are told that there are 4,000, but nobody has come forward with a camera site that does not fit the criteria. I give the hon. Gentleman this commitment: if he will give me just one such example, we will have it investigated and, if appropriate, we will have it removed.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire made a helpful contribution to the debate, particularly in her comments about roadworks at night and structuring the roadworks to take place at appropriate times of the day. That is provided for in the Bill.
  The right hon. Member for Wokingham mentioned 10 ideas, of which four or five instantly struck me as having considerable merit. I hope that he is successful in getting on the Committee that will consider the Bill, so that we can further explore some of those ideas. I can tell

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  the right hon. Gentleman that on occasion, we raise the speed limit on a road. He will know that on the M4, where the speed limit was 50 mph, we decided that there was no road safety reason for it being 50 mph on the lead-in to London, so we increased the speed limit to 60 mph.
  The debate has been useful. I hope that the Bill will gain accord from both sides of the House. It will undoubtedly make a major contribution to road safety and reducing congestion.
  Question put, That the amendment be made:—
  The House divided: Ayes 126, Noes 362.

  Division No.19]

  [9:59 pm

  AYES

  Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)

  Heathcoat-Amory, rh David

  Amess, David

  Hoban, Mark (Fareham)

  Ancram, rh Michael

  Hogg, rh Douglas

  Arbuthnot, rh James

  Horam, John (Orpington)

  Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)

  Howard, rh Michael

  Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

  Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)

  Bacon, Richard

  Hunter, Andrew

  Baldry, Tony

  Jack, rh Michael

  Barker, Gregory

  Jenkin, Bernard

  Baron, John (Billericay)

  Johnson, Boris (Henley)

  Bercow, John

  Key, Robert (Salisbury)

  Blunt, Crispin

  Kirkbride, Miss Julie

  Boswell, Tim

  Knight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire)

  Brady, Graham

  Laing, Mrs Eleanor

  Brazier, Julian

  Lait, Mrs Jacqui

  Browning, Mrs Angela

  Lansley, Andrew

  Burns, Simon

  Leigh, Edward

  Burnside, David

  Letwin, rh Oliver

  Burt, Alistair

  Lewis, Dr. Julian (New Forest E)

  Butterfill, John

  Liddell-Grainger, Ian

  Cameron, David

  Lidington, David

  Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)

  Lilley, rh Peter

  Loughton, Tim

  Chope, Christopher

  Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)

  Clappison, James

  McIntosh, Miss Anne

  Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

  Maclean, rh David

  Collins, Tim

  McLoughlin, Patrick

  Conway, Derek

  Malins, Humfrey

  Cormack, Sir Patrick

  Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian

  Curry, rh David

  May, Mrs Theresa

  Davies, Quentin (Grantham & Stamford)

  Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield)

  Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)

  Murrison, Dr. Andrew

  Norman, Archie

  Djanogly, Jonathan

  O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)

  Duncan, Alan (Rutland)

  Osborne, George (Tatton)

  Evans, Nigel

  Ottaway, Richard

  Fabricant, Michael

  Paice, James

  Fallon, Michael

  Paterson, Owen

  Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster)

  Prisk, Mark (Hertford)

  Redwood, rh John

  Flight, Howard

  Robathan, Andrew

  Flook, Adrian

  Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)

  Forth, rh Eric

  Roe, Mrs Marion

  Fox, Dr. Liam

  Rosindell, Andrew

  Gale, Roger (N Thanet)

  Ruffley, David

  Garnier, Edward

  Selous, Andrew

  Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis)

  Shephard, rh Mrs Gillian

  Goodman, Paul

  Shepherd, Richard

  Gray, James (N Wilts)

  Simmonds, Mark

  Grayling, Chris

  Soames, Nicholas

  Green, Damian (Ashford)

  Spelman, Mrs Caroline

  Greenway, John

  Spink, Bob (Castle Point)

  Grieve, Dominic

  Stanley, rh Sir John

  Gummer, rh John

  Steen, Anthony

  Hawkins, Nick

  Streeter, Gary

  Heald, Oliver

  Swayne, Desmond

  122

  Syms, Robert

  Willetts, David

  Taylor, John (Solihull)

  Wilshire, David

  Taylor, Sir Teddy

  Winterton, Ann (Congleton)

  Tredinnick, David

  Winterton, Sir Nicholas (Macclesfield)

  Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)

  Viggers, Peter

  Yeo, Tim (S Suffolk)

  Walter, Robert

  Young, rh Sir George

  Watkinson, Angela

  Whittingdale, John

  Tellers for the Ayes:

  Wiggin, Bill

  Hugh Robertson and Mr. Mark Francois

  Wilkinson, John

  NOES

  Adams, Irene (Paisley N)

  Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)

  Ainger, Nick

  Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)

  Clarke, rh Charles (Norwich S)

  Alexander, Douglas

  Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)

  Allan, Richard

  Allen, Graham

  Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

  Austin, John

  Clelland, David

  Bailey, Adrian

  Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V)

  Barnes, Harry

  Coffey, Ms Ann

  Barrett, John

  Cohen, Harry

  Barron, rh Kevin

  Coleman, Iain

  Battle, John

  Connarty, Michael

  Bayley, Hugh

  Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

  Beard, Nigel

  Corbyn, Jeremy

  Beckett, rh Margaret

  Cotter, Brian

  Begg, Miss Anne

  Cousins, Jim

  Beith, rh A. J.

  Cranston, Ross

  Bell, Stuart

  Crausby, David

  Benn, rh Hilary

  Cryer, Ann (Keighley)

  Bennett, Andrew

  Cryer, John (Hornchurch)

  Benton, Joe (Bootle)

  Cummings, John

  Berry, Roger

  Cunningham, rh Dr. Jack (Copeland)

  Betts, Clive

  Blackman, Liz

  Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)

  Blears, Ms Hazel

  Cunningham, Tony (Workington)

  Blizzard, Bob

  Dalyell, Tam

  Boateng, rh Paul

  Darling, rh Alistair

  Borrow, David

  Davey, Edward (Kingston)

  Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)

  Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

  Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)

  David, Wayne

  Bradshaw, Ben

  Davidson, Ian

  Brake, Tom (Carshalton)

  Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)

  Breed, Colin

  Davis, rh Terry (B'ham Hodge H)

  Brennan, Kevin

  Dawson, Hilton

  Brooke, Mrs Annette L.

  Dean, Mrs Janet

  Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend)

  Denham, rh John

  Dhanda, Parmjit

  Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

  Dismore, Andrew

  Browne, Desmond

  Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)

  Bruce, Malcolm

  Dobson, rh Frank

  Bryant, Chris

  Donohoe, Brian H.

  Buck, Ms Karen

  Doran, Frank

  Burden, Richard

  Doughty, Sue

  Burgon, Colin

  Drew, David (Stroud)

  Burnett, John

  Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth

  Burnham, Andy

  Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

  Burstow, Paul

  Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

  Caborn, rh Richard

  Edwards, Huw

  Cairns, David

  Efford, Clive

  Calton, Mrs Patsy

  Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)

  Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)

  Farrelly, Paul

  Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

  Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)

  Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

  Fisher, Mark

  Caplin, Ivor

  Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna

  Carmichael, Alistair

  Flint, Caroline

  Casale, Roger

  Flynn, Paul (Newport W)

  Caton, Martin

  Foster, rh Derek

  Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)

  Foster, Don (Bath)

  Challen, Colin

  Foster, Michael (Worcester)

  Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)

  Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)

  Chidgey, David

  Clapham, Michael

  Foulkes, rh George

  Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)

  Francis, Dr. Hywel

  123

  Gapes, Mike (Ilford S)

  Lawrence, Mrs Jackie

  Gardiner, Barry

  Laws, David (Yeovil)

  Gerrard, Neil

  Laxton, Bob (Derby N)

  Gibson, Dr. Ian

  Lazarowicz, Mark

  Gidley, Sandra

  Leslie, Christopher

  Gilroy, Linda

  Levitt, Tom (High Peak)

  Goggins, Paul

  Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)

  Green, Matthew (Ludlow)

  Lewis, Terry (Worsley)

  Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)

  Linton, Martin

  Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

  Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)

  Grogan, John

  Love, Andrew

  Hain, rh Peter

  Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)

  Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

  Luke, Iain (Dundee E)

  Hall, Patrick (Bedford)

  Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)

  Hamilton, David (Midlothian)

  McAvoy, Thomas

  Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)

  McCabe, Stephen

  Hancock, Mike

  McCartney, rh Ian

  Hanson, David

  McDonagh, Siobhain

  Harman, rh Ms Harriet

  MacDonald, Calum

  Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney)

  MacDougall, John

  McIsaac, Shona

  Healey, John

  McKechin, Ann

  Heath, David

  Mackinlay, Andrew

  Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)

  McNulty, Tony

  Hendrick, Mark

  MacShane, Denis

  Hepburn, Stephen

  Mactaggart, Fiona

  Heppell, John

  McWalter, Tony

  Heyes, David

  McWilliam, John

  Hill, Keith (Streatham)

  Mahmood, Khalid

  Hinchliffe, David

  Mallaber, Judy

  Hodge, Margaret

  Mandelson, rh Peter

  Holmes, Paul

  Mann, John (Bassetlaw)

  Hood, Jimmy (Clydesdale)

  Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)

  Hope, Phil (Corby)

  Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)

  Hopkins, Kelvin

  Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)

  Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)

  Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)

  Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

  Marshall-Andrews, Robert

  Howells, Dr. Kim

  Martlew, Eric

  Hoyle, Lindsay

  Meacher, rh Michael

  Hughes, Beverley (Stretford & Urmston)

  Merron, Gillian

  Michael, rh Alun

  Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

  Milburn, rh Alan

  Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)

  Miliband, David

  Humble, Mrs Joan

  Miller, Andrew

  Hurst, Alan (Braintree)

  Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)

  Hutton, rh John

  Moffatt, Laura

  Iddon, Dr. Brian

  Mole, Chris

  Illsley, Eric

  Moonie, Dr. Lewis

  Irranca-Davies, Huw

  Moore, Michael

  Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)

  Morley, Elliot

  Morris, rh Estelle

  Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)

  Mountford, Kali

  Jamieson, David

  Mudie, George

  Johnson, Alan (Hull W)

  Mullin, Chris

  Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)

  Munn, Ms Meg

  Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)

  Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

  Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)

  Jones, Kevan (N Durham)

  Naysmith, Dr. Doug

  Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)

  O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)

  Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)

  O'Hara, Edward

  Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)

  Olner, Bill

  Keeble, Ms Sally

  O'Neill, Martin

  Kemp, Fraser

  Owen, Albert

  Khabra, Piara S.

  Palmer, Dr. Nick

  Kidney, David

  Perham, Linda

  Kilfoyle, Peter

  Picking, Anne

  King, Andy (Rugby)

  Pickthall, Colin

  King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)

  Pike, Peter (Burnley)

  Plaskitt, James

  Kirkwood, Sir Archy

  Pond, Chris (Gravesham)

  Knight, Jim (S Dorset)

  Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)

  Kumar, Dr. Ashok

  Pound, Stephen

  Ladyman, Dr. Stephen

  Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)

  Lamb, Norman

  Lammy, David

  Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

  124

  Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)

  Stoate, Dr. Howard

  Straw, rh Jack

  Prosser, Gwyn

  Stringer, Graham

  Pugh, Dr. John

  Stuart, Ms Gisela

  Purchase, Ken

  Stunell, Andrew

  Purnell, James

  Sutcliffe, Gerry

  Quin, rh Joyce

  Tami, Mark (Alyn)

  Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)

  Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)

  Raynsford, rh Nick

  Taylor, David (NW Leics)

  Reed, Andy (Loughborough)

  Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)

  Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill)

  Teather, Sarah

  Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)

  Rendel, David

  Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)

  Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)

  Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)

  Thurso, John

  Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)

  Tipping, Paddy

  Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)

  Roche, Mrs Barbara

  Tonge, Dr. Jenny

  Rooney, Terry

  Touhig, Don (Islwyn)

  Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

  Trickett, Jon

  Roy, Frank (Motherwell)

  Truswell, Paul

  Ruane, Chris

  Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

  Ruddock, Joan

  Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)

  Russell, Bob (Colchester)

  Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)

  Turner, Neil (Wigan)

  Twigg, Derek (Halton)

  Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)

  Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)

  Salter, Martin

  Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)

  Sanders, Adrian

  Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)

  Sarwar, Mohammad

  Vaz, Keith (Leicester E)

  Savidge, Malcolm

  Vis, Dr. Rudi

  Sawford, Phil

  Ward, Claire

  Sedgemore, Brian

  Wareing, Robert N.

  Sheridan, Jim

  Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)

  Short, rh Clare

  Watts, David

  Simon, Siôn (B'ham Erdington)

  Webb, Steve (Northavon)

  Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)

  White, Brian

  Skinner, Dennis

  Whitehead, Dr. Alan

  Smith, rh Andrew (Oxford E)

  Wicks, Malcolm

  Smith, rh Chris (Islington S & Finsbury)

  Williams, Betty (Conwy)

  Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)

  Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)

  Williams, Roger (Brecon)

  Smith, John (Glamorgan)

  Willis, Phil

  Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)

  Wills, Michael

  Winnick, David

  Soley, Clive

  Woodward, Shaun

  Southworth, Helen

  Woolas, Phil

  Spellar, rh John

  Worthington, Tony

  Squire, Rachel

  Wright, David (Telford)

  Starkey, Dr. Phyllis

  Wright, Tony (Cannock)

  Stevenson, George

  Wyatt, Derek

  Stewart, David (Inverness E & Lochaber)

  Tellers for the Noes:

  Stewart, Ian (Eccles)

  Charlotte Atkins and Jim Fitzpatrick

  Stinchcombe, Paul

  Question accordingly negatived.
  Main Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 62 (Amendment on Second or Third Reading), and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time.

  TRAFFIC MANAGEMENT BILL (PROGRAMME)
  Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Orders, [28 June 2001 and 6 November 2003],
  That the following provisions shall apply to the Traffic Management Bill:
  The House divided: Ayes 357, Noes 128.

  Division No. 20]

  [10:14 pm

  AYES

  Adams, Irene (Paisley N)

  Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

  Ainger, Nick

  Caplin, Ivor

  Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)

  Carmichael, Alistair

  Alexander, Douglas

  Casale, Roger

  Allan, Richard

  Caton, Martin

  Allen, Graham

  Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)

  Austin, John

  Challen, Colin

  Bailey, Adrian

  Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)

  Barnes, Harry

  Chidgey, David

  Barrett, John

  Clapham, Michael

  Barron, rh Kevin

  Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)

  Battle, John

  Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)

  Bayley, Hugh

  Beard, Nigel

  Clarke, rh Charles (Norwich S)

  Beckett, rh Margaret

  Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)

  Begg, Miss Anne

  Beith, rh A. J.

  Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)

  Bell, Stuart

  Clelland, David

  Benn, rh Hilary

  Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V)

  Bennett, Andrew

  Coffey, Ms Ann

  Benton, Joe (Bootle)

  Cohen, Harry

  Berry, Roger

  Coleman, Iain

  Betts, Clive

  Connarty, Michael

  Blackman, Liz

  Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

  Blears, Ms Hazel

  Corbyn, Jeremy

  Blizzard, Bob

  Cotter, Brian

  Boateng, rh Paul

  Cousins, Jim

  Borrow, David

  Cranston, Ross

  Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)

  Crausby, David

  Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)

  Cryer, Ann (Keighley)

  Bradshaw, Ben

  Cryer, John (Hornchurch)

  Brake, Tom (Carshalton)

  Cummings, John

  Breed, Colin

  Cunningham, rh Dr. Jack (Copeland)

  Brennan, Kevin

  Brooke, Mrs Annette L.

  Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)

  Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend)

  Cunningham, Tony (Workington)

  Dalyell, Tam

  Brown, Russell (Dumfries)

  Darling, rh Alistair

  Browne, Desmond

  Davey, Edward (Kingston)

  Bruce, Malcolm

  Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)

  Bryant, Chris

  David, Wayne

  Buck, Ms Karen

  Davidson, Ian

  Burden, Richard

  Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)

  Burgon, Colin

  Davis, rh Terry (B'ham Hodge H)

  Burnham, Andy

  Dawson, Hilton

  Burstow, Paul

  Dean, Mrs Janet

  Caborn, rh Richard

  Denham, rh John

  Cairns, David

  Dhanda, Parmjit

  Calton, Mrs Patsy

  Dismore, Andrew

  Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)

  Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)

  Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

  Dobson, rh Frank

  126

  Donohoe, Brian H.

  Johnson, Alan (Hull W)

  Doran, Frank

  Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)

  Doughty, Sue

  Drew, David (Stroud)

  Jones, Helen (Warrington N)

  Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)

  Jones, Kevan (N Durham)

  Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)

  Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)

  Edwards, Huw

  Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)

  Efford, Clive

  Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)

  Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)

  Keeble, Ms Sally

  Farrelly, Paul

  Kemp, Fraser

  Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)

  Khabra, Piara S.

  Fisher, Mark

  Kidney, David

  Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna

  Kilfoyle, Peter

  Flint, Caroline

  King, Andy (Rugby)

  Flynn, Paul (Newport W)

  King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)

  Foster, rh Derek

  Foster, Don (Bath)

  Kirkwood, Sir Archy

  Foster, Michael (Worcester)

  Knight, Jim (S Dorset)

  Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)

  Kumar, Dr. Ashok

  Ladyman, Dr. Stephen

  Foulkes, rh George

  Lamb, Norman

  Francis, Dr. Hywel

  Lammy, David

  Gapes, Mike (Ilford S)

  Lawrence, Mrs Jackie

  Gardiner, Barry

  Laws, David (Yeovil)

  Gerrard, Neil

  Laxton, Bob (Derby N)

  Gibson, Dr. Ian

  Lazarowicz, Mark

  Gidley, Sandra

  Leslie, Christopher

  Gilroy, Linda

  Levitt, Tom (High Peak)

  Goggins, Paul

  Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)

  Green, Matthew (Ludlow)

  Lewis, Terry (Worsley)

  Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)

  Linton, Martin

  Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

  Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)

  Grogan, John

  Love, Andrew

  Hain, rh Peter

  Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)

  Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)

  Luke, Iain (Dundee E)

  Hall, Patrick (Bedford)

  Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)

  Hamilton, David (Midlothian)

  McAvoy, Thomas

  Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)

  McCabe, Stephen

  Hancock, Mike

  McCartney, rh Ian

  Hanson, David

  McDonagh, Siobhain

  Harman, rh Ms Harriet

  MacDonald, Calum

  Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney)

  MacDougall, John

  McIsaac, Shona

  Healey, John

  McKechin, Ann

  Heath, David

  Mackinlay, Andrew

  Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)

  McNulty, Tony

  Hendrick, Mark

  MacShane, Denis

  Hepburn, Stephen

  Mactaggart, Fiona

  Heppell, John

  McWalter, Tony

  Heyes, David

  McWilliam, John

  Hill, Keith (Streatham)

  Mahmood, Khalid

  Hinchliffe, David

  Mallaber, Judy

  Hodge, Margaret

  Mandelson, rh Peter

  Holmes, Paul

  Mann, John (Bassetlaw)

  Hood, Jimmy (Clydesdale)

  Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)

  Hope, Phil (Corby)

  Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)

  Hopkins, Kelvin

  Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)

  Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)

  Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)

  Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

  Marshall-Andrews, Robert

  Howells, Dr. Kim

  Martlew, Eric

  Hoyle, Lindsay

  Meacher, rh Michael

  Hughes, Beverley (Stretford & Urmston)

  Merron, Gillian

  Michael, rh Alun

  Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

  Milburn, rh Alan

  Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)

  Miliband, David

  Humble, Mrs Joan

  Miller, Andrew

  Hurst, Alan (Braintree)

  Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)

  Hutton, rh John

  Moffatt, Laura

  Iddon, Dr. Brian

  Mole, Chris

  Illsley, Eric

  Moonie, Dr. Lewis

  Irranca-Davies, Huw

  Moore. Michael

  Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)

  Morley, Elliot

  Morris, rh Estelle

  Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)

  Mountford, Kali

  Jamieson, David

  Mudie, George

  127

  Mullin, Chris

  Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)

  Munn, Ms Meg

  Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)

  Soley, Clive

  Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)

  Southworth, Helen

  Naysmith, Dr. Doug

  Spellar, rh John

  O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)

  Squire, Rachel

  O'Hara, Edward

  Starkey, Dr. Phyllis

  Olner, Bill

  Stevenson, George

  O'Neill, Martin

  Stewart, David (Inverness E & Lochaber)

  Owen, Albert

  Palmer, Dr. Nick

  Stewart, Ian (Eccles)

  Perham, Linda

  Stinchcombe, Paul

  Picking, Anne

  Stoate, Dr. Howard

  Pickthall, Colin

  Straw, rh Jack

  Pike, Peter (Burnley)

  Stringer, Graham

  Plaskitt, James

  Stuart, Ms Gisela

  Pond, Chris (Gravesham)

  Stunell, Andrew

  Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)

  Sutcliffe, Gerry

  Pound, Stephen

  Tami, Mark (Alyn)

  Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)

  Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)

  Taylor, David (NW Leics)

  Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

  Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)

  Prosser, Gwyn

  Teather, Sarah

  Pugh, Dr. John

  Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)

  Purchase Ken

  Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)

  Purnell, James

  Thurso,John

  Quin, rh Joyce

  Tipping, Paddy

  Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)

  Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)

  Raynsford, rh Nick

  Tonge, Dr. Jenny

  Reed, Andy (Loughborough)

  Touhig, Don (Islwyn)

  Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill)

  Trickett, Jon

  Truswell, Paul

  Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

  Rendel, David

  Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)

  Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)

  Turner, Neil (Wigan)

  Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)

  Twigg, Derek (Halton)

  Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)

  Roche, Mrs Barbara

  Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)

  Rooney, Terry

  Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)

  Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

  Vaz, Keith (Leicester E)

  Roy, Frank (Motherwell)

  Vis, Dr. Rudi

  Ruane, Chris

  Ward, Claire

  Ruddock, Joan

  Wareing, Robert N.

  Russell, Bob (Colchester)

  Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)

  Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)

  Watts, David

  Webb, Steve (Northavon)

  Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)

  White, Brian

  Salter, Martin

  Whitehead, Dr. Alan

  Sanders, Adrian

  Wicks, Malcolm

  Sarwar, Mohammad

  Williams, Betty (Conwy)

  Savidge, Malcolm

  Williams, Roger (Brecon)

  Sawford, Phil

  Willis, Phil

  Sedgemore, Brian

  Wills, Michael

  Sheridan, Jim

  Winnick, David

  Short, rh Clare

  Woodward, Shaun

  Simon, Siôn (B'ham Erdington)

  Woolas, Phil

  Worthington, Tony

  Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)

  Wright, David (Telford)

  Skinner, Dennis

  Wright, Tony (Cannock)

  Smith, rh Andrew (Oxford E)

  Wyatt, Derek

  Smith, rh Chris (Islington S & Finsbury)

  Tellers for the Ayes:

  Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)

  Jim Fitzpatrick and Charlotte Atkins

  Smith, John (Glamorgan)

  NOES

  Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)

  Bercow, John

  Amess, David

  Blunt, Crispin

  Ancram, rh Michael

  Boswell, Tim

  Arbuthnot, rh James

  Brady, Graham

  Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)

  Brazier, Julian

  Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

  Browning, Mrs Angela

  Bacon, Richard

  Burns, Simon

  Baldry, Tony

  Burnside, David

  Barker, Gregory

  Burt, Alistair

  Baron, John (Billericay)

  Butterfill, John

  128

  Cameron, David

  Loughton, Tim

  Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)

  Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)

  McIntosh, Miss Anne

  Chope, Christopher

  Maclean, rh David

  Clappison, James

  McLoughlin, Patrick

  Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

  Malins, Humfrey

  Collins, Tim

  Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian

  Conway, Derek

  May, Mrs Theresa

  Cormack, Sir Patrick

  Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield)

  Curry, rh David

  Davies, Quentin (Grantham & Stamford)

  Murrison, Dr. Andrew

  Norman, Archie

  Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)

  O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)

  Osborne, George (Tatton)

  Djanogly, Jonathan

  Ottaway, Richard

  Duncan, Alan (Rutland)

  Paice, James

  Evans, Nigel

  Paterson, Owen

  Fabricant, Michael

  Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)

  Fallon, Michael

  Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster)

  Prisk, Mark (Hertford)

  Redwood, rh John

  Flight, Howard

  Robathan, Andrew

  Flook, Adrian

  Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)

  Forth, rh Eric

  Roe, Mrs Marion

  Fox, Dr. Liam

  Rosindell, Andrew

  Gale, Roger (N Thanet)

  Ruffley, David

  Garnier, Edward

  Selous, Andrew

  Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis)

  Shepherd, Richard

  Goodman, Paul

  Simmonds, Mark

  Gray, James (N Wilts)

  Soames, Nicholas

  Grayling, Chris

  Spelman, Mrs Caroline

  Green, Damian (Ashford)

  Spink, Bob (Castle Point)

  Greenway, John

  Stanley, rh Sir John

  Grieve, Dominic

  Steen, Anthony

  Gummer, rh John

  Streeter, Gary

  Hawkins, Nick

  Swayne, Desmond

  Heald, Oliver

  Syms, Robert

  Heathcoat-Amory, rh David

  Taylor, John (Solihull)

  Hoban, Mark (Fareham)

  Taylor, Sir Teddy

  Hogg, rh Douglas

  Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)

  Horam, John (Orpington)

  Tredinnick, David

  Howard, rh Michael

  Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)

  Viggers, Peter

  Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)

  Walter, Robert

  Hunter, Andrew

  Watkinson, Angela

  Jack, rh Michael

  Whittingdale, John

  Jenkin, Bernard

  Wiggin, Bill

  Johnson, Boris (Henley)

  Wilkinson, John

  Key, Robert (Salisbury)

  Willetts, David

  Kirkbride, Miss Julie

  Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)

  Knight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire)

  Wilshire, David

  Laing, Mrs Eleanor

  Winterton, Ann (Congleton)

  Lait, Mrs Jacqui

  Winterton, Sir Nicholas (Macclesfield)

  Lansley, Andrew

  Leigh, Edward

  Yeo, Tim (S Suffolk)

  Letwin, rh Oliver

  Young, rh Sir George

  Lewis, Dr. Julian (New Forest E)

  Liddell-Grainger, Ian

  Tellers for the Noes:

  Lidington, David

  Hugh Robertson and Mr. Mark Francois

  Lilley, rh Peter

  Question accordingly agreed to.

  TRAFFIC MANAGEMENT BILL (PROGRAMME)
    Committal
    1. The Bill shall be committed to a Standing Committee.

    Proceedings in Standing Committee
    2. Proceedings in the Standing Committee shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion on Thursday 12th February 2004.
    3. The Standing Committee shall have leave to sit twice on the first day on which it meets.

    Consideration and Third Reading
    4. Proceedings on consideration shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour before the moment of interruption on the day on which those proceedings are commenced.
    5. Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption on that day.
    6. Sessional Order B (programming committees) made on 28th June 2001 shall not apply to proceedings on consideration and Third Reading.

    Other proceedings
    7. Any other proceedings on the Bill (including any proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments or on any further message from the Lords) may be programmed. [Jim Fitzpatrick.]

  TRAFFIC MANAGEMENT BILL [MONEY]
  Queen's recommendation having been signified—
  Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 52 (Money resolutions and ways and means resolutions in connection with Bills),
  That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Traffic Management Bill, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of money provided by Parliament of—

  any expenditure incurred by the Secretary of State in respect of—

  (a)traffic officers designated under the Act;

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  (b)the establishment and operation of regional centres for the management of traffic on the network of roads for which the Secretary of State is the traffic authority;

  (c)the provision, for purposes connected with the management of traffic on that road network, of information or advice to the public; or

  (d)other activities carried out for purposes connected with the management of traffic on that road network;

  any other expenditure incurred by the Secretary of State in consequence or by virtue of the Act;

  any increase attributable to the Act in the sums payable out of money so provided by virtue of any other Act.—[Mr. Bob Ainsworth.]

  Question agreed to.

  TRAFFIC MANAGEMENT BILL [WAYS AND MEANS]
  Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 52 (Money resolutions and ways and means resolutions in connection with Bills),
  That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Traffic Management Bill, it is expedient to authorize—

  the charging of fees in relation to permits issued, or applications for permits to be issued, under permit schemes;

  the payment of sums by undertakers who are required to carry out, or to contribute to the cost of carrying out, re-surfacing works in a street;

  the charging of sums in relation to the temporary occupation of the highway.—[Mr. Bob Ainsworth.]

  Question agreed to.

  COMMITTEES

    OFFICE OF THE DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER: HOUSING, PLANNING, LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND THE REGIONS
    Ordered,
    That Mr. John Bercow and Mr. Gary Streeter be discharged from the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister: Housing, Planning, Local Government and the Regions Committee and Mrs. Eleanor Laing and Mr. Graham Brady be added.—[Mr. Mc William.]

    CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS
    Ordered,
    That Mr. Mark Field be discharged from the Constitutional Affairs Committee and Mr. Andrew Rosindell be added.—[Mr. Mc William.]

  Alcohol Marketing
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Charlotte Atkins.]
  10.30 pm
  Ross Cranston: Marketing of alcohol, as with other products, has a real impact on consumers. Who does not know that Heineken refreshes the parts that other beers cannot reach or that Guinness is good for you? Those are extremely effective marketing slogans, part of our culture and, like other examples of the genre, about as true. I suggest in this Adjournment debate that it is time to draw a line. The consequences of alcohol abuse are now so great that there must be more effective controls over the marketing of alcohol. I declare my interest as chairman of the all-party group on alcohol misuse.
  Let me start with the public health costs of the more extreme cases. In September last year, in my constituency, consultant heptalogists at Dudley NHS hospitals trust presented me with a petition whose signatures had been collected nationwide. The concern was with the effects of alcohol addiction, particularly with liver disease. Cirrhosis of the liver is an important cause of illness and death. In the year 2000 it killed more men than Parkinson's disease and more women than cervical cancer. There have been large rises in death rates from chronic liver disease in most age groups. Among 35 to 44-year-olds, there has been an eightfold increase for men and nearly a sevenfold increase for women.
  My Dudley doctors were not concerned only with liver disease and other medical problems. A psychiatrist attended the presentation because alcohol addiction relates to dependence and psychiatric conditions such as depression and anxiety. In all, alcohol dependence syndrome accounts for more than 30,000 hospital admissions per year in the UK.
  It is sometimes difficult to get a handle on the other social costs flowing from alcohol abuse. Domestic violence is a major problem. One in nine women experience domestic violence at any one time, with high rates of repeat victimisation. Importantly, there are other indirect consequences such as the psychological effects on children. The relationship with alcohol is complex. The Stella project, working under the auspices of the Mayor of London, argues that men can be violent to women with or without alcohol, but points out that perpetrators may help to create a dependence on alcohol as a tool of control and that victims may themselves become dependent on it to cope with the emotional trauma.
  I shall now deal with the night-time economy. At one level, it means the regeneration of city and town centres, but there is a dark underbelly, where an aggressive hedonism is fuelled by the excessive consumption of alcohol. Traditional pubs catering for a wide range of customers have been replaced by multiple vertical drinking establishments geared to a youth market. Too often the accepted norm in such places is that customers will drink to excess. Violence and antisocial behaviour on the streets is the inevitable consequence, making the lives of those living nearby a misery. It can also result in the exclusion from those areas of older people and others who find the atmosphere alien and threatening.

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  Excessive alcohol consumption results in heavy demands for services such as ambulances, taking resources away from higher priority cases. Before Christmas, for example, west midlands ambulance service announced that 80 per cent. of its cases during the previous festive period were drink related. During the period between 22 December 2003 and last Friday, the police reported that in Dudley, North there were 84 incidents of alcohol-related offending, from drunken behaviour to violence either at licensed premises or elsewhere in the constituency.
  What of the role of marketing in all that? George Orwell described advertising as the rattling of a stick in the swill bucket. The industry would say that the £220 million plus spent a year on alcohol advertising is a force for competition, innovation and consumer choice. The industry claims that the role of advertising is not to increase overall consumption, but rather to enable brands to compete with others in the sector and to gain market share as drinking fashions change. I beg to differ.
  I am not suggesting that advertising is the source of all evil with alcohol misuse and the source of the public health consequences. Some marketing and advertising is clever, innovative and attractive, but the industry is selling a product that is not totally benign. It is a product that, in certain circumstances, has serious negative consequences for our health and society. The causal factors in alcohol misuse are many, and marketing is only one of them. Peer pressure can be a major factor among young people, for example. Nor am I suggesting that advertising always hits the target. I am also not suggesting that to ban advertising would solve the problem of alcohol misuse overnight.
  The Government's strategy unit, in its interim analytical report on alcohol, has collected a great deal of useful information on the implications of alcohol for our society. In relation to advertising, it cites a recent study that used a large sample of time-series data drawn from 20 Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development countries, including the United Kingdom. That study suggests that a partial or total advertising ban would be expected to lower consumption substantially. It contradicts earlier findings concluding that advertising bans would not reduce alcohol consumption.
  Page 130 of the interim analytical report is devoted to the susceptibility of younger people to advertising. For example, young people are more conscious of and more likely to follow rapidly evolving trends and fashion. Since they are early in their drinking careers, they are less likely to have established strong brand and drink preferences. One study cited in the report associates advertising with increased binge drinking by young people. It notes the significant amount spent on advertising youth brands.
  Of course, advertising is only one aspect of marketing. The interim analytical report quite rightly highlights sponsorships, product tie-ins and placements, contests and special promotions. It estimates that when those are taken into account, total spend on promotional activities in the UK could be in the range of £600 million
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  to £800 million annually. There is also the use these days of the internet and mobile telephones in marketing campaigns.
  Then there are point-of-sale promotions, many of which are initiated by retailers. In early December, the "Society" section of The Guardian reported on cut-price promotions in Newcastle and Manchester, but they are of course nationwide. The Nicholson report in Scotland identified such promotions as being of special concern in relation to binge drinking, a point to which I shall return.
  Let me summarise my concerns. First, the industry spends enormous sums on promotion. Then there is the worrying trend in advertising targeting younger people, especially younger women these days, and associating alcohol with sexual and social success. That type of marketing gives the lie to the industry's claim that marketing is about brand switching. If that were the case, it would have concentrated on the heavy drinking young male. Advertising is also designed to recruit new consumers and increase consumption, and that is why it has in recent years targeted the young, especially younger women.
  Secondly, we have one of the laxest regulatory regimes in the world. Television advertisements for alcohol are banned in France, and there are substantial restrictions in other European countries. Yet in the UK in 1995, we saw the end of the voluntary agreement among mainstream spirits producers not to undertake television advertising. We now have substantial advertising of premium, ready-to-drink products. Apart from self-regulation, there is virtually no control over marketing in magazines, at the cinema and on billboard advertisements.
  Thirdly, the mainly voluntary controls are not working effectively enough. It is all very well to pray in aid, say, the steps taken by the Portman Group, such as the obligation for merchandise not to contain alcohol brand names if aimed at children, but there are loopholes in the code. The drinks industry can sponsor as many sporting events and teams as it likes, leading to conflicting messages. In my view, some advertisements step over the boundaries of taste and decency. There is the notion of drinking to excess being an essential part of living life to the full.
  Some parts of the industry emphasise social responsibility. Some of the multinationals—the drinks industry is dominated by a limited number of multinationals, such as Diageo and Allied Domecq—have a social responsibility marketing section on their websites, but that is not the norm.
  What are the options? The Government's forthcoming alcohol strategy will be an opportunity to send stern warnings to the industry about its marketing practices. I hope that the Government will keep the door open to imposing statutory regulation if the industry does not become significantly more responsible in its marketing. The Government's message should be that if the industry wants self-regulation, it will have to make significant and immediate changes. We need not just the occasional socially responsible drinking campaign but for all drinks advertising to be such as to change the drinking culture. I hope that co-regulation of alcohol marketing on television and radio by Ofcom and the Advertising Association will result in a thorough

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  re-examination of the current lax approach. If full regulation is to be avoided, the self-regulatory codes must be enforced in spirit, not just to the letter, if they are to survive. The British Medical Association has called for a ban on all television advertising. Unless the industry takes steps now, the case for a ban will be overwhelming.
  As part of a more responsible approach, particular marketing techniques need to be controlled. I have already mentioned some of the point-of-sale promotions that encourage binge drinking. Even the Portman Group, in its December briefing note, has seen the writing on the wall and calls for
  "action by retailers to curb irresponsible promotions."
  The Nicholson committee in Scotland drew attention to some establishments whose extreme promotions were designed to attract customers regardless of the consequences to their health or to public order and the amenity of others. The committee proposed that there be a duty on all licensed premises to refrain from anything
  "whether by way of promotional advertising, by way of offering discounted prices, or in any other way, which encourages excessive consumption of alcohol and which thereby prejudices, or is likely to prejudice, the licensing principles."
  Just before Christmas, the Glasgow Licensing Board adopted the Nicholson recommendations on promotions.
  I also urge the Government to consider other specific measures in the alcohol strategy. People need to have information about levels of alcohol that are bad for their health and to be able to relate that to the drinks they consume. I have supported the Dudley hepatologists in their call for compulsory labelling of alcohol containers with the number of units of alcohol inside clearly displayed. Some in the industry are already labelling their products along those lines, which is welcome. Cains brewery in Liverpool now labels its 2008 ale with the number of units per bottle and also places a warning on the label:
  "ALCOHOL ADVICE: Robert Cain support responsible drinking. Excessive drinking can cause harm. Observe the daily guidelines for sensible drinking. Do not drink and drive."
  I commend the brewery for that. Yesterday, the Irish Government announced that they were seriously considering such warnings on all cans and bottles of alcohol.
  Labelling would need to be combined with an awareness campaign on the relevance of units of alcohol, which brings me to the use of marketing to campaign for responsible drinking. We are not far off the time when the Government should consider using the creative skills in the advertising world to good effect. The Prime Minister's big conversation contains the question:
  "Should alcohol advertising be taxed, with the proceeds going on treatment or responsible drinking campaigns?"
  Alcohol advertising is already subject to a levy of one tenth of 1 per cent. of expenditure to support the Advertising Standards Authority. So the big conversation question does not raise any new issue of principle, and a positive answer would accord with the notion that any industry must take financial responsibility for associated social costs.
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  Alcohol, in the words of a recent WHO-sponsored publication, is no ordinary commodity. It has very serious costs. One in 13 adults is dependent on alcohol—some 280,000 in the west midlands alone. Among younger people, there is the particular problem of binge drinking, which is a cause of antisocial behaviour and violence, quite apart from the long-term health effects for them and costs to the NHS.
  Some marketing techniques encourage messages about unacceptable drinking. The industry, regulators, the Government and Members of Parliament must urgently address the issue. The forthcoming alcohol strategy provides an important opportunity for everyone involved to take up the challenge of encouraging a more responsible attitude towards alcohol.
  10.45 pm
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Miss Melanie Johnson): I congratulate my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Dudley, North (Ross Cranston) on his success in securing a debate on this important topic.
  As we know, about 90 per cent. of adults in Britain drink alcohol and most of them drink sensibly for most of the time, but we are all aware of the harms associated with alcohol misuse. My hon. and learned Friend knows that the Government are committed to tackling those harms, which is why we are currently developing an alcohol harm reduction strategy for England. In the national health service plan, we said that we would implement the strategy during 2004 and I am pleased to say that we are on course to achieve that timetable. This will be the first time that there has been a co-ordinated and joined-up effort to tackle alcohol-related harm in England and I am pleased to be involved in the current work.
  It is important to ensure that we develop a robust and effective strategy, so it is vital that we draw in the expertise of all the stakeholders, including the all-party group on alcohol misuse, which has contributed to the work to date. I thank the group for its contribution. Over the last seven months, since I took over the public health brief, I have been struck by the number of stakeholders, both inside and outside Government, involved in tackling alcohol-related harm. That demonstrates beyond doubt that a joined-up approach is needed, and that we will be able to build a successful strategy only if we recognise that the Government cannot tackle the problems of alcohol misuse alone. The contribution of the voluntary sector, the private sector and individuals themselves will be needed if the strategy is to make a real difference.
  My hon. and learned Friend mentioned some of the harms associated with alcohol misuse. As he noted, the Prime Minister's strategy unit recently published its interim analytical report, which gives a comprehensive account of the types of alcohol-related harm that are most prevalent in modern-day England. My hon. and learned Friend has mentioned some, and I, too, shall refer to a few of them.
  On the harm to health, we know that between 15,000 and 22,000 people die in England each year as a result of alcohol misuse, and that such misuse accounts for 150,000 hospital admissions each year. The strategy unit

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  also commissioned research that indicated that about one third of all attendances at accident and emergency departments are alcohol-related. It is certainly clear that addressing health harms will need to be a cornerstone of the strategy.
  My hon. and learned Friend mentioned alcohol-related crime and antisocial behaviour. He will be aware that the strategy unit's interim analytical report noted that the cost of alcohol-related crime in England has risen to £4.7 billion per year. Action to combat alcohol-related crime will also need to be at the forefront of the strategy.
  Before moving on to other matters, I join my hon. and learned Friend in commending the Stella project. As he said, the project works with mainstream substance misuse services to ensure that they can offer non-judgmental help to both perpetrators and victims of domestic violence. The project provides a valuable resource for substance misuse services in the capital, and I add my praise to that of my hon. and learned Friend.
  My hon. and learned Friend referred to the evening economy and the problems generated by alcohol-related crime and disorder in an evening economy that often seems to exist only to serve younger people. Supporting urban regeneration by developing a diverse evening economy that caters for a range of ages and leisure tastes will be quite a challenge for the Government, local authorities and leisure providers to meet.
  I shall briefly mention some of the risk factors and the reasons why people misuse alcohol. Several factors were identified in the interim analytical report and without understanding what they are we shall not be able develop effective interventions. A number of individual risks were reported—personality, attitudes and beliefs, genetic make-up, age and gender, occupation and, indeed, even the region where people live—all of which have a role to play in whether someone develops a problem and misuses alcohol.
  Of course, those individuals do not live in a vacuum, and the report also identifies a number of other factors in an individual's immediate environment that increase risk: family structure and parental divorce, parental drinking and parental attitudes to drinking, relationships with parents and pressure from and relationships with peers and friends.
  Of course, risks are posed by the wider culture. The unit's analysis shows that culture and attitudes towards alcohol are driven by multiple influences. At various times, as we all know, many people will use alcohol to be sociable, to gain acceptance as part of a group, to relieve stress or to deal with trauma and to get drunk. The culture of getting drunk and going out to get drunk is particularly worrying, as my hon. and learned Friend and my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, Central (Mr. Cousins), who is also present, will agree. The strategy unit's analysis found that going out to get drunk was particularly associated with the 16 to 24 age group, and that, in turn, it could increase the risk of suffering certain alcohol-related harm, particularly alcohol-related violence.
  The interim analysis also considered the extent to which the market for alcoholic drinks can pose additional risks for individuals. The unit found that
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  price and availability could influence alcohol consumption and, presumably, could therefore influence alcohol misuse as well, but an individual's relationship with the alcohol market and the extent to which the market shaped drinking preferences or was shaped by them was far less clear. That lack of clarity comes to the fore when we consider the marketing and advertising of alcoholic drinks.
  The relationship between marketing, advertising, attitudes and behaviour is, of course, complex. My hon. and learned Friend drew attention to the often conflicting evidence in that area, with one study noting that higher expenditure on alcohol advertising appears to be associated with higher alcohol consumption, while findings from other studies appear to suggest that an advertising ban would not lower alcohol consumption. Furthermore, the strategy unit found that seven in 10 people thought that advertising influenced the amount that others drank, but only one in 10 felt that advertising influenced the amount that they drank.
  I think that it has been worth while spending this short time considering those risk factors, as they serve to show us that the reasons lying behind an individual's alcohol misuse can be very complex, and they demonstrate the scale of the challenge that the Government and our partners face in tackling alcohol misuse.
  The unit is entering the final stage of its work on drafting the alcohol harm reduction strategy for England. I cannot yet discuss the detailed options that the strategy will contain, but I can say that it will be firmly based around effective interventions in the four main areas: education and communication, supply and pricing, health and treatment services and, finally, community safety and criminal justice. The final strategy will need to contain interventions in all four areas, and it will also need to ensure that the initiatives fit together into a coherent whole, as well as linking to other Government initiatives in the fields of health, crime, antisocial behaviour and so forth.
  My hon. and learned Friend has made some valuable suggestions on ways to tackle alcohol misuse, and I should like to discuss them. He suggested the tightening of the current statutory and voluntary codes on advertising, with the option to regulate alcohol advertising in the future; cracking down on irresponsible retail promotions that encourage excessive drinking; displaying sensible drinking information in licensed premises; ensuring that reasonably priced non-alcoholic drinks are available; unit labelling of alcohol containers; an awareness campaign to raise the knowledge of alcohol misuse and its potential for harm; and a levy on alcohol advertising expenditure. As ever, my hon. and learned Friend has come up with some interesting and innovative suggestions, which will be considered by the strategy unit team.
  We have seen that there is no evidence to suggest that there is a clear link between the advertising and the promotion of alcoholic drinks and alcohol consumption or misuse. However, as a society we believe that unrestricted advertising and promotion is not acceptable and, as my hon. and learned Friend has noted, we have a number of statutory and non-statutory

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  codes that seek to ensure that the advertising of alcoholic beverages is not aimed towards young people, does not promote excessive drinking and does not suggest that alcohol consumption can be linked with physical, mental, social or sexual success.
  My hon. and learned Friend mentioned some recent advertisements that do not appear to be in keeping with the spirit of the codes, and I certainly agree with him. He noted that some drinks manufacturers have begun to take their social responsibilities more seriously and have taken steps to ensure that their advertisements are in keeping with both the spirit and the letter of those codes. Like him, I commend those companies that have chosen to take that action. However, as he notes, there is a growing concern that the self-regulatory elements of our framework are not working as well as they could or should. Ensuring that we can have confidence in our arrangements for alcohol advertising is crucial, and proposals in this area will certainly form part of the strategy.
  In relation to irresponsible retail promotions and my hon. and learned Friend's reference to the recent Nicholson committee review in Scotland, we too have read the report with interest and I am always keen to review the practices of and learn from others with an interest in tackling alcohol misuse. We will give careful consideration to the committee's proposals for dealing
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  with those irresponsible retail promotions of alcoholic drinks that result in excessive drinking, even if they do not set out actively to encourage such drinking.
  I assure my hon. and learned Friend that we will be looking very carefully at his other suggestions. An examination of the best ways of getting information about alcohol misuse to the public will be one of the fundamental parts of the strategy, and our work in this area will also cover issues such as the display of unit information and the sensible drinking message. I am looking forward to hearing what people have to say about the proposals for an advertising levy set out in the Labour party's big conversation.
  In conclusion, I thank my hon. and learned Friend for the opportunity to discuss an interesting and useful topic and for the coverage that it has given to issues relating to the marketing of alcohol and to other issues that are crucial if we are successfully to tackle alcohol misuse. Again, I thank him and his colleagues in the all-party group for providing a valuable contribution to the ongoing development of our alcohol harm reduction strategy for England, and I promise him that it will not be too much longer before he will have the pleasure of seeing the finished piece of work.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at three minutes to Eleven o'clock.

TRADE AND INDUSTRY

  British Energy
  The Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Ms Patricia Hewitt)
  On 1 December 2003,Official Report, cols 50–51WS, I informed the House that, following a request from British Energy, I was temporarily increasing the maximum amount available to the company under the Government's credit facility to £275 million. The increase was subject to the condition that it was limited to the period prior to the expected receipt of the proceeds from the sale of the company's interest in Amergen, or 22 February 2004, if earlier, whereafter it would be reduced to £200 million.

  This is the first opportunity I have had to inform the House that British Energy announced on 23 December it had completed, and received the proceeds from, the sale of its interest in Amergen. Accordingly, the maximum amount available to the company under the facility has been reduced back to £200 million. Subject to the conditions of the restructuring, the facility will continue to be available to the company while the restructuring is agreed.

TREASURY

  Equitable Life
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Ruth Kelly)
  Lord Penrose delivered the report of his inquiry into Equitable Life on 23 December. The Treasury and its legal advisers and a limited number of people at the FSA are now reviewing the contents of the report. Subject to these discussions, it is the Treasury's intention to publish the report in full as soon as possible. Further details will be announced in due course.

INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT

  Iran Earthquake
  The Secretary of State for International Development (Hilary Benn)
  On 26 December 2003, at 1.57 am Greenwich Mean Time (5.27 am local time) a powerful earthquake, of magnitude 6.7 on the Richter scale, struck Kerman Province in south eastern Iran. The epicentre was near to the city of Bam. The earthquake hit the city while people were sleeping and the resultant human tragedy has been immense. The Government of Iran now estimate that between 30,000 and 32,000-people have lost their lives. Some 16,000 suffered injuries and 70,000 have been left homeless.

  The Iranian Government has long experience of dealing with earthquakes and other natural disasters, but the sheer scale of this disaster meant that it
  2WS
  welcomed international assistance. The situation was compounded by the fact that many of the city officials in Bam were themselves killed during the earthquake.

  The first priority was search and rescue support for those still trapped in the rubble, and the provision of medical care for the injured. With Bam's only surviving hospital completely overwhelmed, the injured were flown to Kerman, 125 miles away, where they were stabilised before being flown on to Tehran and Isfahan. Providing shelter for those facing the freezing desert night was also critical. Water and electricity supplies took a while to be restored, so some local people were relying on open fires, in low winter temperatures. The Iranian authorities mobilised 20,000 volunteers for the relief effort and the Iranian Red Crescent treated approximately 30,000 casualties in the first four days, of which 10,000 were evacuated to receive tertiary care in seven other centres in Iran. The United Nations report that food and water supply is now adequate at this stage and that health needs are being addressed.

  The United Kingdom played its part in responding quickly to the tragedy. In London, DFID opened its emergency crisis co-ordination room on the morning the earthquake happened, from where staff helped to co-ordinate efforts on the ground, liaise with other international relief organisations and worked with the Iranian Government and the British Embassy in Tehran to ensure that humanitarian assistance was delivered as quickly as possible. The Foreign Secretary spoke to the Iranian Foreign Minister, Kamal Kharrazi, on the afternoon of 26 December, to express his deep condolences at the loss of so many Iranian people in the earthquake and to offer the Iranian Government the services of specialised search and rescue teams to help in the immediate aftermath of the earthquake.

  On 27 December, the day after the earthquake, 68 search and rescue specialists from the UK landed in Kerman on a DFID-organised charter flight from Stansted. The team, comprising UK fire service teams, specialists from British non-governmental organisations including the International Rescue Corps, Canis, Rapid and Bird, and four staff from DFID, took with them sniffer dogs and thermal imaging equipment. They were amongst the first international teams to reach Bam. The search and rescue phase has now come to a close and the UK teams have returned home. The United Nations report that the collective efforts of the Iranian and international search and rescue teams saved approximately 1,000 lives.

  In addition to the immediate search and rescue effort, DFID immediately committed £150,000 towards the International Federation of the Red Cross/Red Crescent appeal for shelter, heating and water purification equipment and on 29 December organised an airlift of 450 winter tents and other shelter materials, from DFID's warehouse, for distribution by the Iranian Red Crescent. We also leased two Antonov 12 cargo aircraft and put them at the disposal of the Government of Iran for the first few days to assist in maintaining the flow of relief items from congested airports to the areas where they are most needed. Also, following an urgent appeal from the World Health Organisation, DFID allocated £59,000 for the immediate purchase of 20,000 doses of tetanus vaccine, to be donated to the Ministry of Health and the Iranian Red Crescent. To date, in total, we have contributed some £900,000, including the

  3WS
  UK share (approximately £280,000) of the European Community commitment towards the international relief effort. DFID is maintaining a presence in the country to look at potential further help in the light of assessments currently underway.

  The Government of Iran has asked the United Nations to develop and launch a Flash appeal. It will address the relief, recovery and early rehabilitation needs of those affected by the disaster and cover a period of three months. The Flash appeal is expected to be launched, in Tehran, on 8 January 2004.

  I want to pay tribute to the professionalism and dedication of the teams from Britain and Iran, and from other nations, that immediately responded to the call for help. The preparedness of the British teams meant that the UK was able to react as soon as news of the earthquake began to reach us. I am also grateful for the excellent assistance provided by the British Embassy in Tehran in facilitating and supporting the teams during
  4WS
  this period. Since the start of the crisis DFID has made available its situation reports on the DFID website. A copy of the latest report will also be placed in the Libraries of the House.
  Helping the people of Bam has become a genuinely global effort, with assistance pouring in from all around the world. One thousand, six hundred international search and rescue, health and relief personnel drawn from 44 countries operated in the disaster area. Since the earthquake, the UN in Bam and Kerman has registered 1,400 flights carrying relief teams and emergency supplies. At moments of great human need like this, the international community must do all that it can to help. It is notable that over 50 countries are doing so, including significant commitments from the Gulf Co-operation Council for reconstruction.

  Finally, I am sure that the House will wish to express its heartfelt condolences to the people of Bam and of Iran on the terrible tragedy that they have suffered. Our thoughts are with them.

Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Truro.

Disabled Facilities Grant
Baroness Wilkins: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I wish the House a very happy new year.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government, in light of their announcement on 4 December that the means test on parents of disabled children for the disabled facilities grant is to be abolished in Northern Ireland, whether they will now abolish this means test in England and Wales.
The Minister of State, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (Lord Rooker): My Lords, I reciprocate.
This is a very serious issue about which there has been pressure on the Government for some time. The Office of the Deputy Prime Minister, jointly with the Department of Health, will be reviewing the disabled facilities grant programme, including the operation of the means test, in the context of the spending review 2004. We will announce our conclusions later this year. The position in Wales is, of course, a matter for the Welsh Assembly, but I am led to believe that it will also be undertaking a review of this important issue this year.
Baroness Wilkins: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that helpful Answer. In doing so, I declare an interest as patron of HoDis, the National Disabled Persons Housing Service. Is my noble friend aware of the Joseph Rowntree Foundation research published over a year ago which showed that one in three families
2
who, as a result of the means test, were assessed as needing to make a contribution towards an adaptation to their home for their children's needs could not afford to do so and no adaptation was made? As a result, thousands of disabled children are living in homes which blight their life chances, restrict their social development and cause their parents acute stress, back injury and sometimes loss of employment.
Is the Minister also aware that that same research shows that a fundamental weakness in trying to address the housing needs of disabled children is the lack of sufficient focus within the legislation? Are the Government planning to address this in the Housing Bill?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I do not think it is addressed in the current Housing Bill, but I take the point about the Joseph Rowntree Foundation report. There is no doubt that in respect of the disabled facilities grant there is a perverse disadvantage for children, because the chances are that one or both parents will be working. Only 5 per cent of disabled facilities grants relate to children; out of about 30,000 such grants, some 1,500 are for children. The average grant for a child is twice the average figure—about £12,000. Nevertheless, as has been indicated, there has been a change in Northern Ireland, affecting a smaller number of people. This is an important issue, which we need to review. As I said, we will fully review the operation of the system in the context of the spending review 2004, and we will come back to the House with a decision later in the year.
Lord Rix: My Lords, is the Minister aware that the Audit Commission review of 2003 also highlighted the necessity for housing for parents caring for a disabled child?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, yes. The disabled facilities grant is the last of the mandatory housing grants still operating in England and Wales. In some ways, it is an area in which local authorities have no discretion. There is a ring-fenced amount of money available. The amount

3
has increased from £56 million to £100 million in the last four or five years, so it is not as though the issue is not being addressed. Nevertheless, there is still an unmet need out there, some of which is caused by the perverse operation of the means test in relation to children because, unlike elderly people—the main recipients of the grant—one or both parents probably works.
Lord Campbell of Croy: My Lords, approximately how many families are at present subject to this means test in England and Wales?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I cannot give a figure in that respect. However, of the 30,000 disabled facilities grants in England and Wales, 5 per cent relate to families with a disabled child—about 1,500. They are all subject to the means test. As to how many actually have to pay, I looked at the calculations and, frankly, I am not prepared to stand here and try to explain to your Lordships' House how this grant is awarded. It is based on the housing benefit structure, and anybody who knows anything about that knows that we have a real problem on our hands. So there is a difficulty here. The effect is that some families do not apply, resulting in an unmet need, although we do not know the precise figures.
Baroness Masham of Ilton: My Lords, may I ask the Minister how much it costs to administer this means test?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, the noble Baroness can ask, but I am afraid I cannot answer. I will get an answer. The total amount of money in England and Wales is about £175 million, and the cost to central government is about £100 million. We repay to local government some 60 per cent of what they spend, but they can spend more, as there is a discretionary element. No one has yet asked me about the estimated cost, so I will give the figures. In terms of lifting the means test for children, our estimate is somewhere between £10 million and £20 million a year.
Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, in the light of the Minister's response to my noble friend Lord Campbell of Croy, are there any plans to review the criteria for the means test?
Lord Rooker: Yes, my Lords. The implication of the Answer I first gave is that we are reviewing whether there is a justification for the means test for children. We will review this in the context of the spending review 2004.
Lord Addington: My Lords, I am encouraged by the noble Lord's replies. When the Government consider the situation in Northern Ireland, will they take account of people who are not eligible for the grant? If more people receive the grant, the Government will
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ensure that the benefit is more widely distributed to those people who need it. Will such practice be used as an example in relation to all other such moneys?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, we are talking about only one specific mandatory grant. I do not know what the effect of the decision regarding Northern Ireland will be. As stated in the Question, the decision was announced only just before the end of last year. The extra cost of the change in Northern Ireland is estimated at £150,000 out of a budget of £8.5 million. It is estimated that some 30 families in Northern Ireland withdrew their applications because of the means test. One cannot be certain about what will happen until the change takes place. Therefore, it is not possible to give a precise view of what will happen in Northern Ireland, but obviously with time we shall have the answer.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland: My Lords, in view of the Minister's encouraging replies, I hope that I may ask two further questions. First, how soon can we hope that the means test is removed? Secondly, the measure concerns children, but many of these disabled children have grown up and are now in their twenties. Can we hope that the matter of dependent older children in other households is considered?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I hope that I have not given too much encouragement in this regard. I said that there would be a full review of the operation of the disabled facilities grant programme, including the operation of the means test. I pointed out that there is a perverse effect, particularly where children are concerned, because of the way in which the means test works. As regards the decision that we are discussing, technically the 2004 spending review has not started. I suppose that it will start shortly. I presume that the Chancellor will announce the relevant decisions in the summer within the global figures. It will then be up to individual departments to determine how they allocate their resources.
A decision will be made later this year on whether or not the grant itself will remain mandatory. It is a fairly fundamental principle. It is the last of the mandatory housing grants; everything else is now discretionary. As is implied in the Question, the measure has specific effects with regard to disabled children. People over the age of 18 are adults and can apply in their own right.

Government Advertising: Expenditure
2.45 p.m.
Lord McNally Lord McNally asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they will invite the Committee on Standards in Public Life to review quarterly, and report to Parliament on, levels of expenditure by government departments on advertising and related campaigns; and to do so up to the date of the next general election.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, the Government believe that there are already sufficient arrangements in place for the reporting of expenditure on government advertising. Government advertising is conducted in accordance with the guidance on the work of the Government Information and Communications Service. Departments account for advertising expenditure in their annual reports which can, of course, be audited by the National Audit Office and the Public Accounts Committee. In addition, the Advisory Committee on Advertising monitors the effectiveness of COI advertising.
Lord McNally: My Lords, does not the Minister recall that in the 12 months up to the 2001 election government expenditure on advertising rocketed and that a "Panorama" exposé showed that much of that expenditure was not targeted at recipients but at key, core voters? Does he recall that at that time government advertising was under the ultimate control of Mr Alastair Campbell, and that when Mr Campbell departed office we were assured that we would have a government Civil Service overlord independent of political control? That was four months ago. When will this Civil Service overlord he appointed? When he or she is appointed, how will they have whistle-blower powers if there is no Civil Service Act to give them independence from their political masters?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his wide-ranging questions. The noble Lord asked in particular about the appointment of a Permanent Secretary to cover government communications. My understanding is that an advertisement has recently been placed for that and that an appointment will be made in the next few months. That person will, of course, report to Sir Andrew Turnbull.
With regard to the noble Lord's comments on the "Panorama" programme, I have looked at the Government's spend on advertising over the relevant period. Expenditure reached some £191 million in the year to which the noble Lord referred. However, that is in keeping with the trend figures in relation to the parliamentary cycle going back several decades.
Lord Higgins: My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that it is very important to distinguish between propaganda and information? Although there is a strong need to publicise the pensions credit as very few people understand it at the moment, the full-page advertisements currently appearing in the national press which state that pensioners,
"who have modest savings, investments, or income such as a second pension or an annuity, could get extra money as well",
are grossly misleading. Such advertisements ought to say, "The Chancellor will go on taxing your small savings, but not quite as much as before".
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I hesitate to say this but I think that if the Government were to issue an advertisement based on the noble Lord's last comment, it would probably be considered propaganda. I am sure
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the noble Lord would agree that it is entirely right that governments spend money on promoting, explaining and informing the public about their rights and responsibilities. The Government's spend on advertising, or media expenditure, in the year 2002–03, covered such subjects as the million visitor campaign for the British Tourist Authority, the new tax credits scheme for the Inland Revenue, the tobacco information campaign, the business links scheme, tax self-assessment, energy efficiency, army recruitment and campaigns to encourage more people to take up teaching. No doubt, although it is not in the list, there were campaigns directed at getting more people to join our excellent police service. It is hard to argue against those things which I am sure comprise the vast bulk of government advertising.
Lord Naseby: My Lords, is the Minister aware that part of the Question relates to "related campaigns"? Is he not further aware that if the Civil Service overlord is do his job effectively, he will need information on the cost of PR, sponsorship and a welter of related campaigns? What plans are there to pull those figures together?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, one of the purposes of the appointment of a Permanent Secretary for government communications is the carrying out of precisely the kind of work to which the noble Lord referred. I have no doubt that the Permanent Secretary will be well supported by every department, particularly the COI and the Government Information and Communications Service, which will provide, I am sure, the top-quality advice that he will need for that job.
Lord Tebbit: My Lords, is there any significance in the fact that while the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, was answering a Question about benefits for disabled children, there was one official in the Box, but that during the Minister's current question-and-answer session, there are three? Perhaps that gives us a picture of the Government's priorities.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I rather fancy that that is because the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, is very good at answering questions. The noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, will have to put up with me on this one.
I am grateful to the noble Lord for his question. It occurs to me that when he was at the Department of Trade and Industry allegations were made that advertising in that department went up by leaps and bounds.
Lord McNally: My Lords, nobody is suggesting—
Noble Lords: Next Question!
Lord McNally: My Lords, it is not "next Question".
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean): My Lords, strictly speaking, we have passed the halfway point. To be fair to the other Questions, we should move on.

Highly Skilled Migrant Programme
2.52 p.m.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes Baroness Gardner of Parkes asked Her Majesty's Government:
How many permits have been issued under the highly skilled migrant programme since the introduction of this scheme; and how many of these have been issued to those skilled in the health sector.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Scotland of Asthal): My Lords, since the Government launched the highly skilled migrant programme on 28 January 2002, there have been 5,570 successful applications up to 31 December 2003. Of those, 64 have been issued to general practitioners and dentists.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. Will she explain the exact position of the people who come under that scheme? The notes for applicants have now been extended to 27 pages and are very good indeed. They were updated in October following modifications to the scheme. I notice the notes state that if you are applying from inside the UK, you have to complete a document which confirms,
"that you can support yourself and your family in the UK without using public funds during your stay".
Why would that apply only to people who are coming from inside the UK?
A related point is that if you are coming from outside the UK, your spouse or partner must come with you. However, if your spouse or partner is already granted residence in the UK, that rules you out. I do not understand that. Paragraph 7.6.5 states:
"Your spouse or partner must accompany or join you in the UK. In addition your spouse or partner must not already have been granted…permanent residence in the UK".
Will the Minister indicate whether people who come from outside are automatically entitled to benefits as soon as they arrive? If not, what follow-up is there in those cases and why the difference?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her complimentary comments about the document. I hope that I shall be able to answer the number of questions that she has asked.
Applicants are not entitled to public funds; that is, income support, jobseeker's allowance, housing and homelessness assistance, housing benefit and council tax benefit. They are not entitled to them because it is intended that they should be self-sufficient and
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economically viable. At the end of the 12-month period, they have to apply for an extension if they wish. On that application form, they have to demonstrate that they have been economically active during that time or have taken reasonable steps to become economically active. I can reassure the noble Baroness that, during the two years the scheme has been operating, of the 5,570 people who have been granted leave, only one has not proven to the department's satisfaction at the end of 12 months that he was economically active and self-sufficient.
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords—
Lord Avebury: My Lords, does the noble Baroness have the information about the number of people with health skills who are waiting to be considered as asylum seekers? Why are they not eligible for the programme? In the old days, when it was administered by the DfES, they used to be so eligible.
Will the Minister also indicate whether proper consideration is being given to the denuding of health workers from countries where their skills are severely needed? Those countries include South Africa, which provides so many of the people in our hospitals today.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, the programme differs markedly from that which applies to those who seek to come to this country as asylum seekers. It is obviously open to any individual who falls within the highly skilled migrant programme to apply under that scheme. The individual employment migration route for highly skilled migrants to come to the UK is to seek work or to pursue self-employment opportunities. Those who fall within that category are usually perfectly capable of being economically self-sufficient.
On the denuding of help, it is important to acknowledge that the largest number of applicants comes from the United States of America. We have received 991 applications from the US. We are not denuding other countries, but we do believe that there are real benefits for migrants who wish to come to this country and to share their skills with us, not least because many of them hone those skills, develop them and then take them home.
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords—
Viscount Bridgeman: My Lords, will the Minister comment on concerns expressed by certain immigrant organisations that highly skilled migrant workers may deprive other countries of much needed skilled workers?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I think that I answered that question a moment ago. Such applicants are entitled to come to this country. We all

9
believe in the free movement of people. That is their democratic right. Many of those who come here hone their skills and take them home, having sent a plentiful supply of money in the interim. That benefits the countries from which they came.
Lord Burnham: My Lords, what percentage—
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, happy new year to everybody. The valuable and helpful notes for those people who are hoping to take advantage of the scheme state:
"The scoring area is for General Practitioners (GPs) only and is not open to Veterinary Surgeons or Dentists";
nor is it open to nurses, particularly highly skilled nurses. Why is there a difference?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, under the scoring system, one automatically receives 50 points for being a GP. One has to score 65 points overall. Noble Lords will know that there is a real need for highly skilled general practitioners and doctors generally. We have made the criteria sufficiently clear so that anyone who falls within the professions that the noble Baroness has identified should be able to meet those criteria if he has the necessary skills. We do not consider that to be an impediment. Indeed, since we changed the rules, the number of monthly applications has risen from an average of 70 to about 250. I shall check those figures and come back to the noble Baroness.

NHS Hospitals: Ministers of Religion
2.59 p.m.
Lord Trefgarne Lord Trefgarne asked Her Majesty's Government:
What changes have been made to the regulations relating to visits to National Health Service hospitals by ministers of religion in recent months.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord Warner): My Lords, there are no regulations in relation to ministers of religion visiting NHS hospitals. New guidance, Meeting the Religious and Spiritual Needs of Patients and Staff, was issued to NHS trusts on 5 November 2003. That replaced out-of-date guidance and was prepared after wide consultation with different interests. The new document helps NHS trusts to deliver religious and spiritual care in a way that meets the diverse needs of their local populations.
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, I am greatly obliged to the noble Lord for that reply. Is he aware that nonconformist ministers in particular are complaining that the new guidance, issued in November, prevents their access to local hospitals? Is he satisfied that that is appropriate?
Lord Warner: My Lords, I do not believe that anything in the new guidance would have that broadly based effect. It is of course for NHS trusts locally to settle the precise arrangements for providing chaplaincy services in their area, taking account of the new guidance and the Data Protection Act. If the noble Lord wishes to write to me to raise particular concerns, I will look into them and respond to him.
The Lord Bishop of Oxford: My Lords, does the Minister not agree that if hospitals are committed to whole-person care—care that includes not only the physical and emotional, but the spiritual dimension—as most of them are, it is very important that chaplains and other visiting ministers should be provided full access to the knowledge without which they cannot exercise that care?
Lord Warner: My Lords, the right reverend Prelate is of course raising the issue of the Data Protection Act. Under that Act, although there are exemptions on the passage of information for medical reasons, the information in question may not be regarded as information for medical reasons. The Information Commissioner has pronounced on that, as the right reverend Prelate may he well aware.
Lord Janner of Braunstone: My Lords, does my noble friend accept that the more serious the illnesses suffered by patients, the greater the need for spiritual and religious care and concern? In the circumstances, will Her Majesty's Government take steps to ensure that sufficient funds are available, so that people of all faiths—young and old, large and small—are looked after? At present, the funding is not there, and the faiths are not able to provide the spiritual and religious care that patients need.
Lord Warner: My Lords, the matter is for the individual local trusts. The House will be well aware of the very large increases in funding for the NHS that this Government have provided. It will be for the trusts to use those resources as appropriate. Receiving spiritual and chaplaincy services is a matter on which individuals must give their individual consent. People will vary in their views on the matter.
Baroness Barker: My Lords, almost exactly a year ago, Ministers reported that the department was working with hospitals to develop good practice in admissions by asking people what their religion was, and asking for their consent for that to be communicated to a representative of their faith. What has happened in the year to implement that good practice throughout the NHS?
Lord Warner: My Lords, the new good practice guidance sets the framework within which that work is done. Under the guidance, a local trust can operate in the way suggested by the noble Baroness.
Baroness Carnegy of Lour: My Lords0, in the Minister's response to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Oxford, was he telling the House that the Data Protection Act comes between chaplains in hospitals and the facts that they need to minister to patients?
Lord Warner: No, my Lords. I was reminding the right reverend Prelate and the House of the Data Protection Act, and that it requires people to give their consent for the passage of information. The only exemption to that is in relation to information where medical reasons are involved. As I understand it, the decision of the Information Commissioner was that passing information without consent under the terms of medical reasons did not extend to information relating to religion.
Lord Avebury: My Lords, is the Minister aware that a difficulty arises when prisoners are transferred from an establishment under the Prison Service to a special hospital, and that the ministers who have been in charge of their spiritual care during their stay in prison may not be aware, unless the patient informs them, that he or she has been transferred? Therefore, there is discontinuation of the spiritual care received by that person.
Lord Warner: My Lords, I was not aware of that problem, but I shall look into it and write to the noble Lord.
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, the Minister said that the new guidance published in the autumn was to replace the existing guidance, which had become out of date. How had it become out of date?
Lord Warner: My Lords, the old guidance was issued more than 10 years ago. As the noble Lord will know, there has been quite a lot of movement in terms of the way in which the NHS is organised, including the Government's wish to shift responsibilities down to the local level. The new guidance was reframed in that way, and to take account of the greater range of faiths that may need to be involved in providing a chaplaincy and spiritual service in the NHS of today.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, how can the Data Protection Act apply if the wretched patient is incapable of giving consent?
Lord Warner: My Lords, that is a matter best left to the local judgment of the NHS staff involved.

Business
3.5 p.m.
Lord Grocott: My Lords, later this afternoon, with the leave of the House, there will be a repeated Statement on Libya by my noble friend Lady Symons.
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It is intended that it will be taken after the third speech—that of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay—on the Health Protection Agency Bill.

Energy Bill [H.L.]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Whitty): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That it be an instruction to the Grand Committee to which the Energy Bill has been committed that they consider the Bill in the following order:

Clauses 1 and 2,

Schedule 1,

Clauses 3 to 11,

Schedule 2,

Clauses 12 and 13,

Schedule 3,

Clauses 14 to 27,

Schedule 4,

Clauses 28 to 35,

Schedule 5,

Clause 36,

Schedule 6,

Clauses 37 to 41,

Schedule 7,

Clause 42,

Schedule 8,

Clause 43,

Schedule 9,

Clauses 44 to 47,

Schedule 10,

Clauses 48 and 49,

Schedule 11,

Clauses 50 to 57,

Schedule 12,

Clauses 58 and 59,

Schedule 13,

Clauses 60 to 65,

Schedule 14,

Clauses 66 to 71,

Schedule 15,

Clauses 72 to 82,

Schedule 16,

Clauses 83 to 110,

Schedule 17,

Clauses 111 to 113,

Schedule 18,

Clauses 114 and 115,

Schedule 19,

Clauses 116 to 131,

Schedules 20 and 21,

Clauses 132 to 145,

Schedule 22,

Clauses 146 to 161,

Schedule 23,

Clause 162.—(Lord Whitty.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

Health Protection Agency Bill [H.L.]
3.6 p.m.
Lord Warner: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.
I am pleased to have the opportunity to open the debate on the Second Reading of the Health Protection Agency Bill, which was introduced to this House on 27 November. It is only a small Bill, but an important one because the agency which it creates is a central part of improving the delivery of frontline health protection services. During the debate on the Queen's Speech, I was therefore pleased to hear support for the Bill from all sides of the House.
I would like to start by outlining the background to the Bill. The need to create the agency arises from a number of recent developments which have made us all much more aware of the risks posed by chemical, biological and radiological threats. Diseases such as TB and HIV/AIDS are still not beaten, and continued vigilance is required to keep them under control. Alongside those known diseases, the outbreak of SARS last year provided a stark warning of the threat posed by the emergence of new diseases, as well as of the risks of importing exotic infections into this country. In addition to those natural threats, we are faced with the spectre of a deliberate release of pathogens, such as anthrax and smallpox, or of chemical or radioactive agents. All those factors have led us to look afresh at how we can best respond to those threats to health and protect our population.
The establishment of the Health Protection Agency was first proposed in Getting Ahead al the Curve, the Chief Medical Officer's strategy for infectious disease and other aspects of health protection, which was published in January 2002. That strategy brought together a number of proposals which offered a more systematic approach to improving health protection. The creation of the Health Protection Agency is a top priority because it will also help us to achieve many of the other proposals in the strategy.
Our key aim in creating the agency is to strengthen and co-ordinate the arrangements for specialist support for health protection on which local NHS bodies and local authorities rely. In the past, a considerable number of different bodies and interests have provided support for health protection issues. Advice on infectious disease generally came from the Public Health Laboratory Service, including the Communicable Disease Surveillance Centre. The National Focus for Chemical Incidents and various regional service provider units provided support on chemical hazards.
Regional advisers supported the health contribution to emergency planning, and consultants in communicable disease control took responsibility for much of the action at local level, in relation to both infectious disease and other hazards. Advice on radiological hazards is currently provided by the National Radiological Protection Board. There was also the National Poisons Information Service and the Centre for Applied Microbiology and Research. The Health Protection Agency will combine all those
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functions in one organisation for the Secretary of State for Health, with the devolved administrations deciding the precise role that the agency will play in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
That wide-ranging role for the agency is an important development, because when an incident occurs it is not always immediately clear whether it has a chemical, radiological or an infectious source. A single agency can provide quick access to all relevant expertise. We also expect to see benefits as all these different specialist areas learn from each other. By placing different responsibilities within a single unified agency we should see a beater degree of cross-fertilisation of good ideas and good practice than in the past.
From June to September 2002 the Department of Health conducted an extensive consultation exercise on the creation of the agency, to which it received 215 responses. One of the results of the consultation exercise was that in November 2002, my honourable friend Hazel Blears, who was at that time the Minister for Public Health, announced the decision to create the agency through a two-stage process. The first stage was to create the agency on 1 April 2003 as a special health authority in England and Wales, which is able to carry out functions under the National Health Service Act 1977. The second stage is to establish the agency as a non-departmental public body which will be able to carry out a wider range of functions, including those that are currently exercised by the National Radiological Protection Board.
That two-stage approach enabled us to move speedily to create the agency as a special health authority covering England and Wales on 1 April 2003. It also gave the Scottish Executive time to complete its own consultation exercise to help determine what role the agency might have in Scotland before we started the second stage. The NI-IS, local authorities and others who undertake health protection and health emergency planning at a local level are now supported by specialists who are part of a national agency who can supply expertise and backup and run programmes on their behalf.
The agency also enables the UK government to make an integrated contribution to a range of international initiatives. In particular, the agency is working to ensure that there is effective international co-operation regarding the surveillance of emerging infections, poisons, chemicals and radiological hazards. That enhances the high reputation for health protection which the UK already has in the international community. A prime example of this was the agency's contribution to the international effort to control SARS. From day one, the agency was linked into the international effort, both in surveillance and laboratory work. The agency had representatives in China, Hong Kong, Vietnam, Canada and at the World Health Organisation where the modelling of SARS was led by the agency. A senior official of the World Health Organisation reported that it would not have been able to manage that work without the UK. As a result of this work the agency is about to sign a memorandum of understanding with the new health protection authority in Hong Kong to work on research, training and emergency planning. That will

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enable the UK to be well ahead of diseases that arise in the far east, as well as having a shared international approach.
Since April 2003 the agency has taken the opportunity to establish itself as a modern, forward-looking organisation. It committed itself to transparency and openness; high standards of corporate governance, integrity and value for money; and working in partnership with other organisations to develop and deliver programmes and policies and ensure public involvement. Its work is based on the best available evidence together with high clinical and public health standards. At this point it is worth mentioning a few of the more significant achievements of the agency so far. Almost from the day of its creation the agency was tested by a number of incidents which posed a threat to public health—some within the UK and some international. I am pleased to say that the agency met those challenges head on, proving that the change process had not disrupted the essential business of its predecessor bodies.
The most prominent and serious of the threats was the emergence of SARS. In addition, the agency has strengthened our ability to respond to chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear terrorist threats. The agency is now supporting the UK Government in that field of work in the same way as the predecessor bodies. In particular, the agency has already coordinated a number of training exercises and provided other forms of emergency response training. As well as ensuring business continuity, it has also made significant progress in delivering a broader vision for it to provide a health protection service at local level in England. It has set up nine regional and 36 local health protection teams to bring a more unified and consistent approach to public health threats across the country. The new relationships and networks will take time to bed down, but the agency, the NHS and local government are working constructively together. In particular, the agency is currently working closely with primary care trusts to finalise the memoranda of understanding which govern their relationships and contribute to the aim of achieving the same high standards of response throughout the country. That should resolve earlier difficulties with some PCTs.
That is only a snapshot of the agency's work, but it demonstrates that at regional and local level the synergy in the CMO's vision for the agency is already producing results. The agency now offers more coherent and better co-ordinated arrangements for health protection than we had in the past and is successfully delivering that service at local level. Therefore, I pay tribute to the staff who worked so hard to achieve that remarkable transition so quickly. They have created a solid and effective foundation upon which we can use the Bill to develop the agency further.
The Bill gives the agency wider functions than could be provided for in the statutory instruments which set up the agency as a special health authority and establishes it now on a proper statutory basis throughout the UK. Without the legislation to give it the additional functions that we originally intended, the agency will be unable to
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undertake the full role that was envisaged for it in Getting Ahead of the Curve. An important feature of the Bill is that Clauses 2 and 3 give the agency specific functions in each of the four parts of the United Kingdom and enable the Secretary of State for Health and each of the devolved administrations to give the agency additional functions in the future if circumstances change. The extent to which the agency will be given additional functions in the different parts of the United Kingdom will vary to take account of the different needs of the Secretary of State for Health and the devolved administrations. It will be for the devolved administrations to shape their use of the Health Protection Agency to meet their particular needs and the Bill reflects that situation in Clauses 2 to 4 and 6.
The other major change in the Bill is contained in Clause 3, which will give the agency the radiation protection functions which are currently exercised by the National Radiological Protection Board. So, alongside the bringing together of different functions, the Bill enables us to reduce bureaucracy further by cutting the number of quangos, because the Special Health Authority and the National Radiological Protection Board will both be replaced by the new body. It is more than just a tidying up of existing arrangements: a more powerful system than we have at present will be created.
In future therefore, the Government and each of the devolved administrations will look to the new agency to provide the functions that are currently exercised by the NRPB. I pay tribute to the service that the NRPB has provided to this country. Originally set up in 1970, the NRPB has been the Government's principal source of scientific advice on radiation issues. Over the years the board has built up an outstanding national and international reputation as a source of expertise on radiological protection issues. That has enabled it to provide an authoritative and independent service to both the Government and the people of this country.
Nevertheless, it is possible to strengthen that service even further by transferring those radiological functions to the Health Protection Agency. Establishing a more integrated source of advice will improve the overall arrangements for the delivery of health protection and will enable the agency to exploit the synergies between the various health protection functions. One particular step that will assist in the exploitation of those synergies has been the decision to co-locate the headquarters of the new agency's chemicals division within the NRPB headquarters building at Didcot.
Transferring radiation protection functions to the agency does not compromise in any way the independent nature of the advice that the HPA will provide, or reduce its quality. The new agency will be an executive non-departmental public body, which is exactly what the National Radiological Protection Board is now. That will ensure the continuing authority of this advice.
The Bill will enable the NRPB staff and assets, as well as those of the Special Health Authority, to be transferred to the new agency. Organisational change can be unsettling for the staff concerned, but I am

17
confident that it will be managed smoothly, with the minimum amount of disruption to both staff and work. To facilitate that process, the two bodies are already working together closely and share the same chairman.
The remaining elements of the Bill are primarily concerned with the practical aspects of setting up and running the agency. The provisions relating to the agency's hoard in Schedule I are in line with the proposals in the 2002 consultation paper that I mentioned, on which there was little comment. Future appointments are likely to be delegated to the NHS Appointments Commission. The funding of the agency will come from the Department of Health and the devolved administrations, plus contracts with the private sector and other parts of the public sector.
The provisions in the Bill on accounts, audit and annual reports are broadly comparable to provisions in existing legislation for equivalent bodies and will provide the framework to ensure that the agency is properly managed and accountable. Clause 5 provides for the agency to work co-operatively with other bodies and Clause 6 identifies who can give directions to the agency and on what functions. Clause 7 provides for the publication of information by the agency and Clause 8 for the transfer of property and staff.
The final point that I want to emphasise to your Lordships is that the Bill will not entail any additional public expenditure or changes to public service manpower. But those resources can be used more efficiently in a single agency. The transitional costs involved in widening the agency's powers will be met from the existing resources available to the Department of Health and the NHS.
Setting up the Health Protection Agency Special Health Authority has already illustrated the kind of developments which changes to arm's-length bodies can achieve. It has shown how, without the need for the Department of Health to seek additional resources from the Treasury, the agency has been able to set up an emergency response division virtually from scratch, strengthen the ability to provide chemicals advice so that there is now the capacity to be proactive as well as reactive, and develop local and regional services.
I hope that I have made it clear why the Government have introduced the Bill. They have done so to bring into full effect this important new body for carrying out the full range of functions envisaged in Getting Ahead of the Curve. The Bill will enable the new Health Protection Agency to respond more effectively to the changing and sometimes dangerous challenges to public health in the 21st century and to deliver an improved health protection service to the public. I commend the Bill to the House.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time.—(Lord Warner.)
3.23 p.m.
Lord Fowler: My Lords, I welcome the Bill and agree with the noble Lord that it is an important measure. I also agree that we are fortunate in having in the agency some very skilled and dedicated staff who already have
18
an international reputation. To place much of this on a United Kingdom basis obviously makes a great deal of sense.
I shall not seek to repeat all the arguments in favour of the agency, which the Minister summarised extremely well. Instead, I want to concentrate on what I regard as one of its most fundamental roles—that is, gathering information on HIV/AIDS and sexually transmitted disease generally. Perhaps I may say in parenthesis that I was slightly surprised that the Minister did not say more about that area. In fact. I am not sure that he said anything about it. I find that surprising for reasons that I shall explain.
It seems to me that the information that the agency collects is entirely fundamental in guiding policy and informing the public of dangers that have emerged or show signs of emerging. In the area of sexual disease, there is no question that we are seeing problem after problem: we are seeing alarming rises in sexually transmitted infections generally; we are seeing new dangers in the area of HIV/AIDS; and we are seeing the clinics set up to deal with those problems operating under acute difficulties. In other words, we see a public health crisis.
That is not only my view; it is the view of the House of Commons Select Committee on Health. It gave its verdict last summer when it said:
"We have been appalled by the crisis in sexual health we have heard about and witnessed during our inquiry. We do not use the word 'crisis' lightly but in this case it is appropriate. This is a major public health issue and the problems identified in this report must be addressed immediately".
I refer also to a very important letter in the Times of 15 December from Professor Michael Adler, who is a most respected figure in this area. He said:
"The Department of Health's desire to shift the balance and devolve responsibility to primary care trusts…means that no one takes responsibility for sexual health".
He went on:
"The time has come for strong central political leadership and recognition that we are dealing with a major public health crisis".
Therefore, against that background, I believe that we have a public health crisis and, also against that background, it must be in the public interest that the new agency should have the resources and means to gather up-to-date information; otherwise, informed debate is impossible and we revert to prejudice and predetermined views. There are few areas where there is a greater temptation to go down that road than in sexual health.
I take it as accepted that in the publication of the information that the agency gathers, the Government will give the agency complete and unfettered independence. I also take it that there is no question of health Ministers or civil servants wanting to alter any findings that could be embarrassing to whatever government happen to be in power.
I believe that in Committee we shall need to consider Clause 7, which sets out when information will not be published. I assume that the provision on the Data Protection Act covers patient confidentiality. That is clearly a very important issue in this area. But I am

19
always wary when I see that publication can be banned when it is "not in the public interest". We shall need to examine who judges what is in the public interest and what is not.
However, my major concern about the Bill is that the collection and analysis of information on sexually transmitted infection should not be some theoretical exercise. Where problems are identified, the information should be accompanied by statements of action on how the problems are to be remedied. There is no point in allowing the reports of the agency to gather dust on the shelves of medical libraries. The public will want to know what Ministers intend to do to put the position right.
What concerns me about the Bill is that it places a great number of duties on the agency—a great number indeed—but not many on the Government in how they respond. Let us take the annual report as an example. In Clause 24:
"The Agency must as soon as possible after the end of each financial year prepare and send to the Secretary of State"
an annual report and,
"must provide the Secretary of State with such other reports and information as he directs".
And what is the duty on the Secretary of State? Only that he must lay copies of the reports before each House of Parliament. There is not even an "as soon as possible" requirement on the Secretary of State.
However, that is a minor irritant. What is really lacking in the Bill is any requirement on the Government to respond to the reports of the agency and, in particular, to its annual report. There is no requirement on Ministers to set out what they are doing. There is no requirement on Ministers to set out how their policies are tackling or will tackle the issues raised. That is certainly not because everything is going so fantastically well as this moment that any statement would be entirely unnecessary.
One has only to look at the very important update report of the Health Protection Agency, published to coincide with World AIDS Day, to know that that is not remotely the case. The report presents a very grim picture. It shows that sexually transmitted infection generally has increased alarmingly; that in the past 12 months, for example, diagnoses of infectious syphilis in men increased by 73 per cent and in women by 33 per cent; that there have been significant increases in sexually transmitted infections among gay and bisexual men; that cases of gonorrhoea, again among gay men, have almost doubled since 1999; and that those same sexually transmitted infections may facilitate the transmission of HIV.
The report also reveals that there has been an increase in the number of heterosexual HIV diagnoses acquired in this country, and that over the past 12 months there has been a 20 per cent increase in the number of people living with HIV to an estimate today of about 50,000. The figures also show big increases in the number of HIV infections acquired outside the United Kingdom, notably in sub-Saharan Africa, which provide other—but I would suggest different—challenges.
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It would be a profound mistake to blame the deteriorating position simply on people coming to this country from abroad. Both with sexual disease generally and with HIV/AIDS, there is a major problem which is entirely home-made. The irony is that so much of the disease is entirely preventable. However, the position remains that either through ignorance—which remains very high among young people, who are most at risk—or through risk-taking by men who believe, utterly incorrectly, that HIV can be cured, precautions are ignored.
The net result is not only needless suffering, but also treatment clinics under unprecedented pressure, particularly in cities such as London. Anyone who doubts that has only to cross the river to St Thomas's Hospital to see facilities stretched to bursting point. The net result is further public health risk. The whole idea of the clinics was that they would offer immediate and confidential walk-in facilities. The rule today is that consultation is by appointment and that there is waiting and delay—delay in which infection can be spread further.
In policy terms, the lack has not been of information on the spread of this danger. Information has been collected faithfully and well by the predecessor bodies to the Health Protection Agency. As I think my figures have demonstrated, that continues to be done by the agency. The lack has been of the action necessary to counter the threat. None of this has happened overnight. The figures started deteriorating from about 1996–97. The public can judge for themselves whether the responses of governments have measured up to the scale of the problem. I doubt that many will say that they have.
I have to observe that it took this Government four years—one whole Parliament—to produce their much-promised strategy document on sexual health. It was as if Ministers were embarrassed by the whole subject and, above all, wanted it to go away. Perhaps I may advise the Government: before they publish documents such as the one that I have with me entitled UK's call for action on HIV/AIDS, in which there is more than a hint of self-congratulation in what they have done in pushing HIV/AIDS up the world agenda, they should first examine whether they have the authority to make such claims, based on what they have actually done at home.
I do not claim that by placing a duty on the Government—any government—to respond to the reports of the Health Protection Agency we will solve all the difficulties, but I certainly believe that it would help. I notice from the agency's own report, in November 2003, that it had 10 quite specific proposals, which ranged from reducing the waiting time at clinics to increasing prevention efforts directed at gay and bisexual men and promoting voluntary confidential HIV testing of migrants from sub-Saharan Africa who present themselves at clinics. It is a very wide range of important proposals, all of which are very closely directed at urgent issues. Surely no one denies the need to reduce waiting times at clinics. I find there is also

21
increasing support for much more extensive public education and advertising directed particularly at young people.
At Question Time today, Ministers defended the money spent on government advertising. I suggest that there would be little criticism if more money were spent in this particular area, warning young people of the present dangers. It remains vital that we reduce the undoubted ignorance that exists and persuade people generally of the importance of sensible prevention measures.
Of course, what matters is not what I think, or even what the Health Protection Agency believes, but what the Government decide to do. Quite rightly, in this Bill the Government are holding the agency to account and setting out what they require the agency to do. However, the public also have rights over the Government. We are dealing with important threats to public health. The public have a right to know what the Government intend to do to meet those threats. This is not a function that can he sub-contracted to an agency. An agency can measure the size of the problem and make proposals. However, when it comes down to it, it is the duty of the Government, not the agency, to protect the public.
I support the Second Reading of the Bill. However, I believe that there is much more to do to achieve the purposes that we all desire.
3.36 p.m.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, I welcome the Bill. The Health Protection Agency has many important and different aspects, as the Minister so clearly outlined. I shall concentrate my remarks on the incorporation of the National Radiological Protection Board. I declare an interest as an employee of the Velindre NHS Trust in Wales.
As an independent public body the National Radiological Protection Board has indeed provided independent advice to protect public health and to protect workers exposed occupationally and patients undergoing medical treatment from the hazards of radiation. Its remit covers both ionising and non-ionising radiation. It has also carried out research to underpin the advice it has given. It has established a national and international reputation for scientific excellence, particularly in relation to dosimetry and the health effects of ionising and non-ionising radiation.
The National Radiological Protection Board has also made major contributions to the development of plans to deal with nuclear emergencies and model the behaviour of radionucleotides in the working and natural environments; to the assessment of workers and members of the public who are exposed, including those involved in medical irradiation; and to protecting people from the health effects of ultraviolet and electromagnetic radiation, including power frequencies and radio frequencies. All of those data are incredibly important and are sometimes the result of
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government policy. The agency's independence must be preserved within the new body to ensure that it can hold government policy to account, and vice versa.
The National Radiological Protection Board has consistently been represented on all the relevant premier scientific committees. It also developed the UK gold standard for professional training in radiological protection. All of that comes at a price. The board currently holds assets; it is very important that there is no risk of it being asset-stripped.
The contribution of those from radiation protection to the Health Protection Agency started with enthusiasm under the leadership of Professor Roger Clarke and now of Professor Roger Cox. The collaboration is already demonstrating that the National Radiological Protection Board has much to contribute within the HPA and that it will gain scientifically. Those are all positive events. As the Minister outlined, the key areas of collaboration are emergency response planning, including chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear incidents; the provision of training and radiological protection for the local and regional units of the Health Protection Agency; and modelling of the dispersion of noxious agents in the environment.
Future research and development is absolutely crucial as it will affect the assessment of human exposure to genotoxic agents including chemical and radiological agents. However, I seek reassurance from the Minister that the radiological protection work and other work of the agency within the devolved administrations will remain adequately funded in the long term; that staff developments, both within the UK and through international collaboration, will be encouraged; and that the retention of expertise will be adequately resourced. Because once that expertise is lost, it will take many years to regain.
It is essential that the National Radiological Protection Board develops and maintains the expertise necessary to respond to health concerns when they arise, often at very short notice. Examples include the Chernobyl incident, concerns over mobile phones and base stations and the work done in assessing concerns about childhood leukaemia occurring near nuclear sites. These matters need work between the board of the Health Protection Agency and other disease registers. I should like to address briefly some aspects surrounding disease registration in a moment.
The independence of the board, with its UK-wide responsibilities, has led to its well established reputation far beyond our shores. This international role is extremely important for all. As the Minister outlined, in Getting Ahead of the Curve Sir Liam Donaldson referred to the National Radiological Protection Board being a "distinct entity" within the Health Protection Agency. I hope the Minister will be able to confirm that the resources required to maintain that expertise—and that distinct identity—will be available; and that the independent work of the protection board will he supported so that it can hold government to account over their policies, and that its information can be used to inform policy, just as Defra has consulted over contaminated land and radioactive waste disposal.

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The board's independent opinion is of great value and must not be stifled, even though at times the information it puts into the public domain may appear to be uncomfortable for whichever government are in power.
The noble Lord, Lord Fowler, has eloquently called for action on sexually transmitted diseases. Disease registration and issues of confidentiality and consent will need to be clarified for the Health Protection Agency and disease registration processes to work effectively.
To date, there is
The Government need to engage the public in understanding why epidemiological data are so important. The public needs to understand why every citizen's disease data are important to contribute to the mosaic picture of health, so that policies can be scrutinised and early warning signs detected. Without addressing some of the broader aspects, I fear that the Health Protection Agency may find itself in shackles and unable to operate as effectively as one hopes it will. So my plea throughout will be for independence to be maintained; for the cross-border working between devolved administrations to continue; and for some of the broader issues of registration to be addressed.

Libya
3.43 p.m.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement on Libya being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary. The Statement is as follows:
"With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a Statement on Libya. As the House will be aware, the important announcements about Libya's weapons programmes occurred on 19th December, a day after the House had adjourned for the Christmas Recess. I therefore felt that the House should have an early opportunity to discuss these developments.
"Libya is a signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and the Biological Weapons Convention. But we had long been concerned about Libya's proliferation activities, which could potentially have posed a threat to the region, and might put Libya in breach of its international obligations.
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"Furthermore, there have been the profound concerns about two Libyan acts of terrorism in the 1980s—the Pan Am flight destroyed over Lockerbie in December 1988, and the murder of WPC Fletcher in April 1984. For several years we have been engaged in discussions with the Libyan authorities to resolve these two issues. These discussions led to the trial—under Scots law, but in the Hague—of Libyan citizens accused of offences in connection with the Lockerbie outrage and much more recently to Libya agreeing to pay compensation to the families of those killed at Lockerbie. The Libyans have accepted full responsibility for the action of their officials and the matter reported to the Security Council with UNSC sanctions lifted by SCR 1506 on 12 September.
"The Libyans have also paid compensation to the family of WPC Fletcher, but we continue our efforts to pursue her murderers.
"An important aspect of the Lockerbie discussions was Libya's categorical renunciation of terrorism and pledge to co-operate in the international fight against terrorism. Diplomatic relations with Libya were restored in 1999 by my right honourable friend the Member for Livingston. In 2002, my honourable friend the Member for North Warwickshire, then Parliamentary Under-Secretary in the FCO, visited Libya and held fruitful discussions with Colonel Gaddafi. Last year we concluded both a cultural and a transport agreement. More recently, on 30 December Libya repaid £20 million of debt it owed to our Exports Credits Guarantee Department.
"This process of engagement provided the backdrop for the discussions on Libya's weapons programmes which began with an approach to us by Libya in March of last year. At Libyan request these discussions took place in the strictest secrecy.
"Nine months of work by officials and experts from the United States and the United Kingdom then followed. Libya acknowledged to us that it was developing a nuclear fuel cycle intended to support nuclear weapons development. A team of British and American officials were given access to projects at more than 10 sites. These projects included uranium enrichment. Libya had not yet developed a nuclear weapon, but was on the way to doing so.
"Libya provided evidence to us of activity in the chemical weapons field, including significant quantities of chemical agent and bombs designed to be filled with chemical agent.
"The team of British and American specialists was given access to scientists at research centres with dual-use potential to support biological weapons-related work. And Libya has provided access to facilities where missile research and development work had been conducted.
"As a result of these discussions, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister, United States President Bush and the Libyan Foreign Minister, Abdulrahman Shalgam on behalf of Colonel Gaddafi made parallel public statements on 19 December. I am

25
placing Foreign Minister Shalgam's statement in the Library of the House. In the Libyan statement Colonel Gaddafi committed his country,
"of its own free will…to eliminate these materials, equipments and programmes so that Libya may be completely free of internationally proscribed weapons".
The Prime Minister in his statement paid tribute to Colonel Gaddafi for taking this courageous decision.
"I have invited Foreign Minister Shalgam to visit London soon to discuss a range of bilateral and international issues. This will form part of the process of implementing the decision by Libya to dismantle its weapons programmes. Britain and the United States will now be taking forward the practical issues of verification and of the dismantling of these weapons in partnership with Libya and with the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) and the Organisation for Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW). We have committed ourselves to helping with the preparation of Libya's returns to the IAEA and OPCW and to helping dismantle the programmes Libya has agreed to destroy.
"Within their respective remits, the responsibility for verifying Libya's declarations lies with the IAEA and the OPCW, and it is for the Libyan authorities to inform these organisations about the details of their programmes.
"I have been in close touch with Dr Mohammed El Baradei, the Director-General of the IAEA, and I spoke to him again this morning. He took a team to Libya last week and visited a number of sites. There will be a report to the next meeting of the IAEA board of governors in March.
"This agreement represents a successful outcome for the engagement by the US and the UK with Libya over a long period. We have, I believe, established a relationship of trust, which has enabled Libya first to renounce terrorism and now to renounce the pursuit of weapons of mass destruction. I greatly applaud the remarks of Foreign Minister Shalgam in which he said:
'Libya's belief is that an arms race does not serve its security nor the security of the region, but conflicts with Libya's overarching goal of a world where security and peace hold sway'.
For our part, we have recognised that we now have corresponding responsibilities to enable Libya to come fully into the mainstream of the international community.
"The proliferation of weapons of mass destruction represents one of the most serious threats to national and international security. Tackling that threat is at the heart of the Government's efforts to create a more peaceful and prosperous world. In parallel to the discussions with Libya, much work has continued with Iran. Following its agreement in principle with the board of governors of the IAEA, the Foreign Ministers of Germany and France and myself, Iran has now signed an additional protocol allowing intrusive inspections.
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"It is always better to resolve issues by negotiation and agreement when possible. Butt for that to happen, it is necessary to have a partner with whom to negotiate. Over the past five years, we have built a relationship with Libya that has enabled us together to take an important step towards reducing the threat of weapons of mass destruction".
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
3.51 p.m.
Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, your Lordships will be grateful to the noble Baroness for repeating that Statement from the Foreign Secretary on Libya. On balance, we welcome Libya's decision to come clean about its weapons of mass destruction programme, its missiles of more than 300 kilometre range and its chemical weapons programmes. That is undoubtedly one step forward in shoring up and refreshing the world's now shaky non-proliferation treaty regime, which is in need of strengthening and reinforcement.
However, going further than that and christening General Gaddafi as a statesman with whom we can do business is surely going a little too far. A few weeks back, our job was apparently to fight a war on terrorism and to fight for democracy everywhere. This week, General Gaddafi is now in favour, who is not noted for his enthusiasm for democracy and has had little to do with the democratic system during his 34 years in office. After all, he has presided over the country that gave us the murder of Yvonne Fletcher in St James's Square—as the noble Baroness reminded us, the killer has still not been handed over or identified—and the Lockerbie horror, which the noble Baroness mentioned. His regime provided the IRA with Semtex, weapons and other forms of support.
Indeed, at this moment, as far as I know, the Libyan regime provides Zimbabwe and the Zimbabwean leadership—the illegal regime there—with oil. I heard nothing about it in the Statement, but I presume that during the negotiations of the past five years, or whatever, we have insisted on one condition being that that process stops: that oil should no longer be provided to the illegal Zimbabwe regime. Can we be assured that that has been examined and that condition applied, or at least discussed, because hearing nothing about it in the Statement is worrying?
There is then the general question of sanctions. The UN has now voted to lift sanctions on Libya, but the United States has not yet done so. Can we he clear where we stand on the matter and what is our assessment of the likelihood of the US lifting sanctions in the near future?
As the noble Baroness reminded us, over the years General Gaddafi has imported centrifuge equipment to make highly enriched uranium—U 235—according to reports this morning, apparently from Pakistan. However, I understand that the Libyans had difficulty screwing together the various parts of the centrifuge equipment and had not reached the enrichment phase, although they were on the way. Will we now receive more information about the underworld of nuclear

27
trade between Pakistan, Libya, North Korea and Iran? Will more be forthcoming so that the matter can at last be opened out and halted in the interests of all humanity?
As I said, overall we welcome the prodigal, if I may put it that way, but with prudent caution, I urge—perhaps with a little more caution than the more exuberant statements of the Foreign Secretary have demonstrated. Above all, we should insist on thorough verification at all phases of that opening up to ensure that it is really happening and monitor rigorously to ensure that that unreliable, maverick dictator, who has changed sides, directions, opinions and alliances many times, will this time live up to his word.
3.56 p.m.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, we on these Benches also welcome the Statement—with slightly fewer reservations than have been expressed from the Conservative Benches. The development is thoroughly welcome; we hope that it will be followed by other successful negotiations. We all acknowledge that the development of weapons of mass destruction is a real threat to world order and that any successful negotiation that leads a country to renounce nuclear weapons is therefore unreservedly desirable.
My noble friend Lord Roper and I were just discussing how many of us have been following the relationship with Libya with close attention ever since, 20 years ago, we were three doors from the Libyan embassy. I was watching the demonstration outside the Libyan embassy on 20 April 1984 and saw WPC Fletcher being shot. That was not an easy thing to cope with.
Libya has not only been promoting weapons of mass destruction, it has, as the noble Lord, Lord Howell, remarked, been actively supporting terrorist groups and destabilising regimes across Africa, and not only supporting the regime in Zimbabwe. I am surprised that the noble Lord described that regime as illegal—it is illegitimate perhaps, but not, I think, illegal. I was in southern Africa last week, and my latest information is that the Libyans are no longer supporting the Zimbabweans, simply because the Zimbabwean debt to Libya is now so large that they have given up extending credit.
However, the Libyan role in west Africa has also been extremely damaging. Its active support for Charles Taylor and destabilising efforts in Cote d'Ivoire and Sierra Leone are also matters with which we are properly concerned. I should be grateful if the Minister could confirm that that dimension of Libyan foreign policy has also been covered in the negotiations and that Libyan intervention in the tangled affairs of west Africa is now moderated.
We recognise that weapons of mass destruction are a major problem elsewhere in the world. The noble Lord, Lord Howell, referred to the problem of Pakistan as a supplier. Today's reports confirm what had been widely suggested for many years. He also raised the question of Brazil. As the issue is especially
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sensitive in the Middle East, do the Government now intend to raise the question of nuclear weapons programmes with the Government of Israel, which is also not observing the current regime and which has clearly developed a substantial military nuclear programme? It would be a major measure in rebuilding confidence in the Middle East if the Israeli Government were to follow down the same road.
We especially welcome the involvement of multilateral institutions—the IAEA and OPCW—and want the Government to assure us that the United States is as committed to multilateral engagement, to strengthening the role of international institutions, as Her Majesty's Government appear to be. We welcome particularly the successful use of measures short of war—sanctions, diplomacy, carrots and sticks, incentives and penalties—and their proven success in this case. Will the Minister confirm that the negotiations started before the invasion of Iraq?
4 p.m.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I thank both noble Lords for their welcome of the Statement, albeit that the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, was marginally more guarded in his welcome than the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire.
This is an important step forward, but I stress to the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, that it is not the first step that Libya has taken in the right direction. The Statement was not exuberant, as the noble Lord characterised it; if anything, it erred on the side of flatness in how it laid out the history regarding Libya. Some of that history has been very lamentable, such as Lockerbie and the murder of WPC Fletcher.
The Statement also tried to point out how the relationship has developed over the past five years—very cautiously, with the developments of the Lockerbie trial and the compensation for the murder of WPC Fletcher. As the Statement pointed out, the murderers have still not been brought to justice. In all that, it is important to remind ourselves, as the noble Lord did—the Statement did, too not only of the history, but of the progress that there has been in normalising the international relationship.
Although the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, picked up the following enormously important point, the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, did not do so in quite the same way: the current position does not rely on trust or statements about statesmanship; it relies on proper mechanisms for implementation through the international agencies, the IAEA and the OPCW. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, for acknowledging that point.
Both noble Lords referred to Zimbabwe. We have made Libya aware of our views on its relationship with Zimbabwe, but I am sure that both noble Lords will have noticed that my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary is inviting Foreign Minister Shalgam to the United Kingdom shortly. I am sure that that bilateral issue will be an important point in the discussions that will take place then.

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The noble Lord asked, now that the United Nations sanctions have been lifted, about the United States sanctions. That is a matter for the United States of America. They will have to decide how they think the international agencies have done in the verification of Libya's undertakings. Libya has also agreed to sign the chemical protocol as well as the biological one, to which it has already put its name. I am sure that the United States will wish to scrutinise how the monitoring is carried out and that they will have many questions. As I am sure both noble Lords are aware, a European Union arms embargo is still in place.
Both noble Lords asked about other clandestine programmes of weapons of mass destruction. I agree with them that it is enormously important to pursue, both with the countries where we believe that weapons programmes are in progress and through the international agencies, ways to get other countries into the sort of negotiations that we have managed to conduct with the Libyans over the past nine months or so. The Statement referred to the fact that the Iranians have now entered such a process with the IAEA.
The noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, raised several issues similar to those raised by the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, which I hope that I have covered. In particular, he raised the question of whether Israel was one of the other states that may have nuclear weapons programmes. I make no exception regarding Israel. Israel has never admitted to such programmes, but it is important that, where we have reason to believe that we should enter into negotiations with a state—not only Israel, there are other states—we should do so if at all possible. That is the right course to pursue but, as the Statement makes clear, it is possible to do so only where there is a willing partner with whom to have such negotiations.
In my recent travels in the Middle East, I raised not only the issues of weapons of mass destruction but also issues surrounding the control of terrorism. We all understand that those are dual threats. It is important to get a number of states around the world to participate more fully and more robustly in dealing with the dual threats of terrorism and weapons of mass destruction programmes.
The noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, asked whether the negotiations had begun before or after the invasion of Iraq. I cannot give the exact dates. If the noble Lord's point is that the negotiations were not spurred by what was happening over Iraq, we could argue the point either way. Whether it was just before or just after, much pressure was being brought to bear on Iraq at the time. The basic point is that, where there is a willing partner, it is possible to deal with these dreadful weapons programmes through negotiation and without resort to any military conflict. If that was the noble Lord's point, I agree with him entirely.
4.6 p.m.
Lord Judd: My Lords, I, for one, side myself completely with those who wish to place on record appreciation of and congratulations to Ministers and officials who have worked so tirelessly on this very
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important development. It is significant news that has significance beyond Libya—in the whole international community, certainly the Middle East. Without reservation I wish to say thank you, if my noble friend will accept my remarks.
The noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, specifically mentioned Israel. Does my noble friend accept that Israel is not just another case to be examined, but a crucial case, if stability is to be promoted in the region and internationally? My noble friend's response was encouraging, but it would he good to hear that some priority was being given to the matter because of its immense significance.
In the long run, our credibility in this sort of operation, which is so much to be applauded, will be related to how far the world can see that we, the United States and France are ourselves committed to reducing our dependence on weapons of mass destruction, nuclear weapons and the rest, and reducing nuclear arsenals. That commitment that we have given in the past will come under increasing scrutiny as we take initiatives of this kind. I know my noble friend's personal commitments on disarmament, but I hope that she can reassure us that in the context of what has happened we shall redouble our efforts to make our own contribution in the already-established nuclear powers to making the world safer.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Judd for what he said. He asked whether I would accept his remarks, which were made without reservation. Of course I accept them very warmly. I thank the noble Lord very much for reminding us of the very important role that officials play in such negotiations. Often, Ministers stand at the Dispatch Box and take the brickbats or the credits. On this occasion, officials have played an enormously important role, and their expertise is invaluable.
The noble Lord made the point that Israel was a crucial case. I acknowledge that, but I say to him that all cases are crucial. I am sure that, in his turn, he will acknowledge that, too. It takes only one country to resort to the use of weapons of mass destruction, whatever those weapons are, for there to be a truly appalling position for us internationally. Of course, the Middle East is a particularly volatile part of the world, and a resort to any of these terrible weapons would be truly devastating.
The noble Lord asked what we are doing to reduce our arsenals. I do not think that this Government have a bad tale to tell over that. We put the freefall bomb out of commission when we came into power; we have substantially reduced our nuclear warheads, as I am sure the noble Lord will know. I am sure he will also know and acknowledge that the United Kingdom Government pursue vigorously all international opportunities for non-proliferation, for looking at ways in which we can reduce fissile material around the world, and to encouraging others, perhaps who have not been quite as enthusiastic as we have in signing up to the international treaties, to do so.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick: My Lords, will the noble Baroness accept my congratulations to the Government and to the United States Administration on the very skilful way in which they have brought about a remarkable step forward? Does she agree that this shows that persistence with international work, through international machinery, can pay off, as it has done in the case of Libya?
The decision to go to the Security Council in 1992 has led on to a sequence of improvements in the behaviour of that regime. Although I share some of the doubts of the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, about the permanence of Colonel Gaddafi's conversion, I still think we have to recognise that concerted international pressure has brought positive results. Has the Minister become aware of a reported comment by a member of the US Administration, that he could not understand why Dr El Baradei the director general of the IAEA, had recently been to Libya, following the declaration of Colonel Gaddafi, since El Baradei knew next to nothing about the Libyan nuclear programme?
Does the Minister agree that it is important that all governments represented on the governing board of the IAEA, which of course includes the United States and the United Kingdom, should pass to the director general any information they may have about the failure by NPT signatories to fulfil their obligations? Will she say a little more about the role that the Government see for the IAEA and the OPCW in the future verification of the commitments that President Gaddafi has recently entered into?
I welcome what the noble Baroness said in her original Statement, or rather the Foreign Secretary's Statement, but it would be good to hear a little more to be quite sure that the verification of these very important statements that Colonel Gaddafi has made will be put fair and square in the hands of international bodies that can be accepted on a continuing basis by the Libyan regime.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hannay of Chiswick, for his welcome for this Statement. We are all bound to have a degree of caution in looking ahead over the next few months. It is important to be very hard-headed about this whole process of implementation and monitoring, and that of course is why we welcomed the visit that Dr El Baradei made to Libya. He took with him a team from the IAEA.
I did not see the remarks to which the noble Lord refers, and I try not to comment too much on reported remarks that I have not seen. Dr El Baradei has considerable expertise in atomic energy and he works with a team of experts in the IAEA. As the noble Lord, Lord Hannay of Chiswick, pointed out, he also works with a team on the board of governors who have expertise from around various countries in the world, and they will receive a report. The noble Lord asked about the next step. A report will go to the IAEA governing board in March this year.
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The noble Lord asked me to say a little more about what is happening. At the moment, the process that has begun has four areas where Libya will be making some advances over the next few months. There is nuclear capability; chemical capability; and there is the question of biological capabilities, because Libya admitted to past intentions to acquire capabilities related to biological weapons as well. The noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, referred to the important point about the means of delivery. There is also the question of missile development in Libya as well. So there are four avenues to be pursued over the next few months as far as Libya's declarations are concerned.
Lord Blaker: My Lords, I too congratulate Her Majesty's Government on the part that they played in the negotiations with Libya that led to Libya changing its posture on nuclear weapons and created the prospect that Libya would also change its posture on the other types of weapons of mass destruction to which the noble Baroness referred. To what extent does the noble Baroness believe that the dramatic change made by Mr Gaddafi was influenced by the successful war conducted by the coalition against Iraq and by the capture of Saddam Hussein?
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Blaker, for what he has said. What we have seen recently has indeed been dramatic, but it has been the dramatic part of a process that has gone on for five years. In answering the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, I stressed that we had made advances in our efforts to get Libya more aligned with its international neighbours on the question of Lockerbie, in the first place, and on the question of WPC Fletcher. There have also been some interesting changes in the ways in which we have dealt with cultural issues relating to Libya, with transport issues and—significantly, I would say as a former Minister for Trade—with their repayment of debt to the Export Credits Guarantee Department.
The noble Lord asked whether the decision was influenced by the war with Iraq. It would be difficult to single out an issue and say that it was the turning point in the mind of Colonel Gaddafi that made him decide that he needed, at this point, to reveal the extent of his weapons programmes and move towards normalising his international relationships. Who can say that part of the pressure on Colonel Gaddafi was not due to seeing what happened in Iraq, but there may also have been a realisation that there was far more mileage in normalising relationships, getting better trading relationships and increasing the prosperity of his country by normalising commercial transactions with other countries. I suspect that all those issues played their part. I do not discount what happened in Iraq. What we have seen is enormously welcome, and I hope that others, having seen what has happened, will feel moved to enter into the same sort of negotiations.
Lord Howe of Aberavon: My Lords, far be it from me to adjudicate in the debate between my noble friend and the noble Baroness about the cause of the act of

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repentance. Lawyers spend years arguing about the difference between the causa causans and the causa sine qua non. I am probably not allowed to use such language in the House.
The original tragic killing of WPC Yvonne Fletcher took place during my early months at the Foreign Office, and not long after that came the attack on the American nightclub in Berlin, which led us to take action that was necessary at the time. I join other noble Lords in warmly welcoming the Statement made by the Minister, and I endorse the tributes paid to the tenacity. patience and robust pressure shown over a long time during the process. Like the noble Lord, Lord Judd, I pay tribute to the part played by Ministers and officials.
May I be mildly mischievous and ask the noble Baroness whether she agrees that we should also pay tribute to the value of secrecy in diplomacy? It is probable that such an achievement would not have been possible had it not been for the extreme confidentiality with which the professionals conducted the negotiations over a long period. We should let the world know that secret diplomacy still has a part to play in helping us achieve the kind of world in which we want to live.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I agree so much with what the noble and learned Lord has just said. The question of how we put information into the public arena, on the one hand, while having negotiations that are worth having, on the other, is one of the great dilemmas of modern political life and one that we have not resolved. The noble and learned Lord has opened up an enormously important area of discussion. I wish it was one to which we devoted more time. Perhaps I may say that I wish it was one in which we could have a better discussion with some parts of the media. It is crucially important that where we are able to take forward that type of negotiation we are allowed to do so. I understand why there is a great demand for information. In a free and open democracy, there will be many who want to see that kind of information put into the public arena. I agree with the noble and learned Lord that it is enormously important we also recognise that sometimes secrecy is absolutely invaluable in getting to this type of position.

Health Protection Agency Bill [H.L.]
4.20 p.m.
Second Reading debate resumed.
Lord Turnberg: My Lords, I am afraid that I have to bring us back from Libya to the Health Protection Agency. The creation of the HPA clearly is a vitally important initiative. It has focused attention on the need for a comprehensive system to protect the population from infectious diseases—on which 1 will focus—and on other environmental hazards.
If ever there was a subject for us to be taking seriously this is it. Almost every time the Government are blown off course by unexpected events, often it
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turns out to be some infection or other—be it AIDS or SARS or even flu or CJD or bio-terrorism with anthrax and the like. If it is not human infection, it is animal infection, such as mad cow disease or foot and mouth disease. All those infections created great anxiety and cost billions to the Exchequer, which had not been calculated for, quite apart from the suffering that they caused.
No one can doubt the importance of the HPA. Here, we have a chance to enhance our capacity to deal with all those threats. But we must get it right. The least we might expect is an improvement on what went before, not that what we had was so deficient. Here I express an interest as past chairman of the board of the Public Health Laboratory Service, which I believe was regarded widely as a model of an integrated system. The epidemiological analysis was and is carried out by the disease control centre, from which all the advice for action to practitioners in the field emanates. It is closely linked to a laboratory network around the country where all the tests on patients and samples was done and the results are reported to the centre.
That worked well. For example, even the director of CDC Atlanta in the United States lauded and envied our system, and we led the field in Europe. I am therefore not so starry eyed as my noble friend the Minister that all this has happened since the HPA came into being. But, of course, it was far from perfect. I had the pleasure to serve on your Lordships' Select Committee on Science and Technology under the wise chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Soulsby. Its report, too, emphasised where some of the difficulties lie and where we should expect the HPA to take up the cudgels.
The two major problems that beset the HPA's predecessors and which must be addressed if it is to succeed were, on the one hand, starvation of funds, so that they were unable to do the jobs that they desperately wanted and needed to do, and, on the other hand, a degree of interference and micro-management by the Department of Health, which was hard to bear for much of the time and sometimes became intolerable.
What should we be looking for in the Bill? First, it must ensure that the HPA has the capacity to deal not only with current known threats but also with sudden surges of infection outbreaks. Hitherto, there have been many occasions when capacity was sorely stretched and, sometimes, even overwhelmed, even though we know that we can expect the unexpected every year.
The HPA needs a first-rate IT system so that information about the nature of outbreaks—for example, where they are occurring or linking an unusual case in one part of a country with one in another—is transmitted rapidly to those in the field who have to trace sources of outbreaks and take action. An effective IT system is the vital nervous system for the HPA, which is so dependent on rapid information flows. Currently, its systems are nowhere near as good or as integrated as is necessary. That is

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despite repeated requests for funding by the HPA's predecessor. We must ensure that the HPA is not similarly deprived.
The HPA needs resources to invest in research and development. It is heavily dependent on new technologies and techniques to keep ahead of infections that are constantly evolving and changing. I am concerned that research is mentioned only tangentially in the Bill. Greater emphasis must be put on education and training too. The HPA must have the capacity to engage in international collaboration activities as well as parochial UK activities. Viruses and bacteria do not seem to need passports.
All those activities are self-evident; some are indicated in the Bill. But those requirements have been obvious for years. The major reason that they have not been achieved as well as they should is because successive government policies have diverted funds to front-line clinical activities, such as waiting list initiatives and the like, and away from public health. Some people might think that the £50 million to £60 million per year provided by the Department of Health for the PHLS—which, interestingly, contrasts with the £170 million that we heard about for advertising—is so small as to suggest an unthinking disregard for the dangers that come from neglecting our defences against infection. But that was and, I believe, still is the level of support.
There is no hint of more funding. Indeed, the Chief Medical Officer has clearly stated that the change to the HPA is to be achieved without additional funds, which is reiterated in the Explanatory Notes to the Bill. The Bill suggests that the Secretary of State will take note of how much external support the HPA will earn when determining its government grant, so the more that it earns externally, the less the Secretary of State will need to provide. That does not seem to be entirely satisfactory.
One aspect of funding that is not mentioned in the Bill is that which primary care trusts now have to provide. All those laboratories previously run by the PHLS and now taken over by NHS trusts must be funded for public health functions by the PCTs. All the surveillance work, the very specialised types of testing and rapid reporting are the responsibility of PCTs. But it remains to be seen how seriously those responsibilities will be taken when they are sorely pressed by more acute clinical demands. Individual patients always take precedence over the more nebulous need for public health protection.
I turn now to the relationship between the Department of Health and the HPA. Is it likely to be anything like the enviable relationship of government to the Food Standards Agency? That would be a marvellous model. Unfortunately, there is nothing in the Bill which suggests that the HPA will be allowed to get on with the job without undue interference by the department. Of course, with a subject of such overwhelming national importance, the Government must be involved and must be informed. There is no doubt about that. But the Bill is absolutely stiff with directions by the Secretary of State. Does it need all this close monitoring? The HPA is full of
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highly dedicated, highly expert and responsible people. I know them well; they were all on the PHLS. I cannot believe that this degree of monitoring and managing can be justified. The HPA deserves better.
Perhaps I may say what I believe is needed in the Bill. First, there should be less emphasis on direction by the Secretary of State. Secondly, there should be greater emphasis on the role that the HPA should have in research and development and in education and training. It should be required, rather than simply permitted, to participate in international collaborative activities of importance to the UK and elsewhere. Of course, the HPA must be adequately funded for all those roles.
The HPA should also be given the facility to influence PCTs, perhaps through their directors of public health and through the memoranda of understanding—if they have sufficient teeth—so that they take seriously support for public health laboratory functions. Further, the Bill should make it obvious that the Secretary of State cannot penalise the HPA by cutting its funds if it earns more from other sources.
I finish by saying that, ultimately, the HPA will be able to meet all these vital responsibilities only if it is adequately resourced. It will struggle to achieve all the welcome principles embodied in the Bill unless that is the case. Here is an opportunity to make a real difference from what went before.
4.30 p.m.
Lord Soulsby of Swaffham Prior: My Lords, this debate follows closely the publication of the Science and Technology Committee report, Fighting Infection, which I had the honour to chair; the Government's response to that report; the debate on it in this House; and, again, the Government's response. All identified that the Health Protection Agency is an important and urgent development.
This debate on Second Reading is the time to identify the most important issues that have surfaced from individuals and organisations which have a stake in the success of the Health Protection Agency. Additionally, it is time to address those issues that were identified by the Select Committee and others, but which have not been given the emphasis one would have hoped for in the Government's response to the committee report.
It has always been envisaged that the HPA would play a major role in bringing together the various strands in the provision of health services. Indeed, in reply to the debate on the Select Committee report, the noble Lord, Lord Warner, stated that,
"the Health Protection Agency is the first of its kind in the world. Its creation is an essential, ground-breaking development for the protection of health in this country".—[Official Report, 8/12/03; col.618.]
We hope very much that that will be the case, but it is essential that this ground-breaking development does not founder for want of appropriate funding. I should say that alarm bells began to ring when I read the Explanatory Notes, in particular paragraph 32, which states that:

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"The Bill does not entail additional public expenditure or changes to public service manpower".
That was repeated by the Minister opposite this afternoon.
With respect to the first recommendation made in the Select Committee report, the Government agreed that there was room for the improvement of management and indicated that the integration of expertise would enable the Government to get more from the same resources not only as a result of economies of scale, but by building synergies between different disciplines. Precisely what is meant by that is not clear, but if the HPA is to do its work well—and all welcome and wish it well in this respect—then wishes and welcomes are not sufficient and there must be a capability of launching the HPA in such a manner that it can deal with what is expected of it.
Previous speakers have indicated that much needs to be done, while in opening the debate the Minister remarked that much has already been done. An example of a proposed important area for the HPA is for it to take specific and primary responsibility for the integration of surveillance related to human, animal and food-borne infection. It is possible that that can be accomplished under subsection (2) of Clause 4, headed "Functions: supplementary". It allows the agency to do,
"anything which is thinks is…appropriate for facilitating…the exercise of its functions".
I regard that as a particularly wide remit for any organisation. A clear statement of the respective roles of the HPA and the Department of Health as perceived by the department would be beneficial, as well as of the responses of the department to recommendations made by the HPA. I hope that that would be a two-way process. This is important in view of what is expected of the HPA.
Contrary to the stated expectations of the Government, much of what is envisaged will entail an increasing level of manpower, and where there is a consequent loss of manpower in seeking to meet those aims, it is unlikely that it will be achieved without any further cost whatever. As the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, pointed out, there are surges of expectation and necessities to be met in health situations that must be accommodated. One of those is bio-terrorism, We do not know where it may hit, but we must be prepared. Obviously such needs cannot be met at the expense of reductions elsewhere. The agency must be capable of meeting surges of action.
One development that would fit into the concept of integration of expertise is that of infection centres. The proposal was not given much support in the Government's response, but it has received wide support elsewhere, in particular from the Colleges Committee on Infection and Tropical Medicine. The point is made that all areas should have access to a critical mass of expertise in the prevention and management of infectious problems. The Government would prefer to see the formation of looser networks, as suggested in the Department of Health's response. However, we share the view of the British Infection Society that the infection centre concept is the optimal
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way to develop surge capacity able to deal with acute demand, as was adequately demonstrated recently with SARS, West Nile fever and influenza.
One area of particular concern is that of vaccine research, development and production The Government's response to the House of Lords inquiry agreed that there has been a significant deficit in the UK capacity for vaccine production. A secure supply of vaccines in the event of a national or global pandemic is essential. Previously, the HPA Porton Down facility was identified as an essential component of preparedness. Further, the HPA has commented that it would be imprudent not to have a vaccine capability there. The Select Committee recommendation on this point has yet to receive a fair wind.
One wonders whether the wide range of functions and capabilities listed in Clause 4 would allow the HPA to go ahead with Porton Down vaccine development, or would the HPA still have to be a supplicant to the Department of Health for funding for this facility? The need for a flu vaccine to meet a pandemic situation is well illustrated by the present position in the United States, where the national supplies of flu vaccine are insufficient to immunise target groups. Comments made on 12 December last in the New York Times include:
"For the first time in recent memory there may be less vaccine than people want and certainly far less than would be needed to vaccinate all 185 million for whom the vaccine is recommended or suggested".
One topic which has become prominent recently is that of the supply of academic clinicians and, in particular, medical microbiologists. I know that this question was put to the Minister during our previous debate on these issues. He stated then that action was being taken and it is to be hoped that some attention can be paid to it under one or other of the rubrics of the Bill.
I make a final comment on a matter referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg; that of the status of the HPA. It is important that this is clarified with respect to the Department of Health and the Government. We have recommended that the HPA should be considered an independent body, as is the case for the Food Standards Agency. I understand that this concept is under consideration and perhaps the Minister can comment on the progress of those deliberations.
We all believe that the HPA is a crucial development for the provision of healthcare across a wide spectrum of activities. It has much important work to do. We must get it right. For this to be accomplished, there must be provision of appropriate funding and facilities to allow it to work.
4.40 p.m.
Baroness Masham of Ilton: My Lords, the first piece of legislation to be discussed by your Lordships in the new year is the Health Protection Agency Bill, which I consider to be of the utmost importance. I was concerned to read in the Explanatory Notes that from April 2003 the agency will be created as a special health

39
authority and that subsequently, when legislative time allows, as a non-departmental public body which will be able to carry out a wider range of functions. Surely with something as important as this Bill, the Government should be able to make time available as a priority when they believe the need is there. My concern is the importance that the Government are giving the Bill. Perhaps the Minister will give it a rating out of 10—with 10 being the most important.
The HPA will have three main functions relating to health: the protection of the community against infectious diseases and other dangers to health; the prevention of the spread of infectious disease; and the provision of assistance to any other person who exercises functions in relation to these matters.
The HPA is also given powers in regard to radiation protection and the publication of information on such matters. A requirement for co-operation with other agencies is also included in the Bill. With new and continuing threats from infectious diseases, environmental hazards and the need for health emergency planning, this must be a top priority.
With so many vital duties included within the Bill—such as the provision of services in the event of the deliberate release of chemical and microbiological agents and poisons—I hope that other health issues which may not seem so dramatic will not be neglected. Terrorism is causing world-wide alarm, but we must not downgrade the urgency of tackling the disturbing rising rates of infection.
Under much pressure, the Government have developed a sexual health and HIV strategy and an infectious disease strategy. The pressure must be kept up to try to make hospitals and the community safer for vulnerable people. Sloppy hospital hygiene and complacency over the danger of MRSA have now become a fear for people needing invasive procedures. Will the HPA be able to recommend standards to help control infections?
Sometimes it seems that people working in public health have not been given the appropriate status for the important work they do. The Bill may well increase the workloads of doctors and nurses working in public health as data collection for the purposes of surveillance of the spread of disease is vital. But if the job is to be done properly it will take more time and more personnel. It must be done accurately.
Infectious diseases currently present a real threat to the nation as a whole. Although there was a reduction in the number of people with infectious diseases in the latter part of the 20th century—largely thanks to the increased use of vaccinations and antibiotics—recent years have seen a rise in the prevalence of certain diseases. In particular, levels of infection from tuberculosis and HIV/AIDS, which had been stable or in decline, have seen a recent increase. The HPA is particularly concerned that treatments for diseases, including cancer, reduce the strength of the immune systems of certain individuals to infectious disease.
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With modern air travel the countries of the world are now very close to each other. This was highlighted by last year's outbreak of SARS, which originated in a district in China where humans live close to animals and fowls, such as pigs and chickens, and the danger of the disease being spread by civet cats seems once more to be a threat. Given the problem of TB in cattle, BSE, CJD, and many other infections which can be passed from animal to human, the problem of leptospirosis—Weil's disease—which is passed by rats, and rabies in dogs and foxes, will there be a veterinary section of the Health Protection Agency?
I am told that in May this year there is to be a government veterinary surveillance strategy review. Over the years there have been some deficiencies in surveillance. Is it not the case that many other countries regard this requirement as fundamental?
Some noble Lords may remember Baroness Walton, who, a few years ago, died of CJD. She was a great loss to your Lordships' House. There is a need for research and development in so many of these serious conditions.
In a recent case in America, quick surveillance traced where a cow with BSE had come from and quick quarantine of the farm took place. Can the Minister assure the House that our surveillance and tracing policy will be improved? If the noble Lord does not know the answer in regard to my question about the veterinary section of the HPA, perhaps he will write to me.
It seems as important to have a good IT system with which to pass information round at local, regional and national levels in the veterinary world as it is in the medical and human systems. Given the increasing resistance to antibiotics it is vital to have a reliable monitoring system in place and good overall co-ordination. What assurances can the Minister give that, given its broad scope, the agency will not become submerged in red tape and that responsibilities will not be confused?
As the agency was formed following the amalgamation of a number of different units there have been problems in relation to working practices. Difficulties have been experienced with the establishment of common systems, with ensuring that there is appropriate accommodation for all and with the creation of a unified information technology system. It seems that the Government have some sorting out to do to ensure that there is smooth and efficient co-ordinated management before the HPA becomes a non-departmental public body.
In ending, I should like the Minister to explain what part the Health Protection Agency will have in blood safety. Just before the House recessed for Christmas, your Lordships were given a Statement on a case of CJD from a blood transfusion. Since then, there has been a case of BSE in a cow in the United States. Many blood compounds are imported from the USA, as they had been considered safer. It may be that blood, which is vital to save lives in many cases of accidents and operations, could be made even safer after this new development. What is the Government's view on synthetic blood?

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With so many changes in the National Health Service and so many different bodies doing different things, perhaps the Government would give some publicity, so that the public understand who is doing what. I hope that your Lordships will agree with me that the Bill needs careful scrutiny to see that we give the population of England and Wales the very best health protection.
4.51 p.m.
Lord Chan: My Lords, like other noble Lords, I welcome this Bill to establish the Health Protection Agency, but with some worries about the Bill as presented today. I was especially impressed by my experience of working with the agency's communicable infections directorate. That came about because of the inordinate delay of more than four weeks before a ministerial Statement was made about SARS in the United Kingdom, at the end of April 2003.
In early May 2003, a month after the agency came into existence as a special health authority, I had the opportunity to work with the HPA on SARS. Professor Angus Nicoll, director of communicable infections, came to see me on 6 May because of my Written Questions about advice for Britain's Chinese community and my concerns about the inappropriate quarantine of Chinese children in boarding schools. That evening, the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, led a dinner-hour debate on SARS and tuberculosis, in which a number of noble Lords took part.
I outlined my concerns in Hansard, vol.647, No. 86, saying:
"In Britain we have had only six probable cases, and all have recovered. However, high levels of fear are present in the Chinese community, particularly as they watch satellite television from Hong Kong and erroneously assume that precautions recommended there, where SARS infection is still active, should be implemented in Britain".—[Official Report, 6/5/03; col.1031.]
At that time, fears of SARS had also drastically reduced the number of diners in Chinese restaurants in London's Chinatown.
A week later, I met two members of Professor Nicoll's department working on SARS, and we discussed a draft of a press release for the general public containing information aimed at the Chinese community. A further draft press release was written after more discussions with people in London's Chinatown community, and published on 23 May 2003.
That experience convinced me of the need for the Health Protection Agency during an outbreak of an infectious disease, even though we in the UK were not particularly affected. It demonstrated the value of an independent national agency that could give advice to the NHS in an emergency. Hospitals and primary care staff were assisted on the clinical diagnosis of patients and isolation procedures. The HPA also provided appropriate information for members of the public, particularly people who had been in countries where SARS was spreading.
In April 2003, as the Minister has said, the HPA sent public health specialists to centres in countries where SARS was epidemic in order to study infection control
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measures, particularly in Beijing, Hong Kong and Singapore. That was important because of the fears generated here, in the Chinese community, and the scaremongering that arose about people carrying SARS from affected countries into the UK.
After the SARS outbreak subsided in the summer, I had another meeting, in mid-July, with a team from the HPA, to consider community research in case of a recurrence of SARS in the winter. Funding for that research had to be generated from outside the HPA, but no indication was given whether the NHS would contribute. Like the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg. and others, I am concerned that funding for research and development in the HPA is still inadequate.
It is significant that a new case of SARS—the first since July 2003—was diagnosed last week, and the diagnosis confirmed today, in Guangzhou, southern China, where the first cases of SARS were reported in 2003. My concern is whether the NHS, particularly in primary care, is today better prepared to deal with a SARS outbreak than it was 12 months ago.
Clearly, the Health Protection Agency is essential for the maintenance of the public's health. The HPA's efficiency is increased by its regional centres in England. The downside of the current arrangements, including the two-part implementation of the restructuring of the HPA, has been the upheaval of staff in its regional centres. In addition, the primary care trusts are expected to fund the work of the regional centres of the HPA, but many primary care trusts are struggling with debts. Further, public health units in primary care trusts are also small and fully stretched in coping with the issues of health inequalities. Therefore, there is an air of crisis management in public health in primary care trusts, especially in parts of the north west, where the HPA is expected to collaborate with the primary care trusts on issues such as surveillance, diagnosis, management and control of outbreaks.
With such a wide-ranging agenda, it is unlikely that the HPA can be expected to work well without the prospect of additional funding. If the HPA is to be independent and effective, the Bill is to be welcomed; but if it is to be involved in the community where protection is expected, it must be allowed to function with adequate resources.
4.57 p.m.
Lord Clement-Jones: My Lords, this has been an extremely well-informed debate. Each noble Lord, in his or her own expert way, has most helpfully cast a spotlight on different aspects of the Bill, dispelling any notion that it is simply a legal formality. Talking of spotlights, this House in the past month has emphasised the importance of good microbiological surveillance and infection control—in the debate on the Science and Technology Committee report, Fighting Infection, through government reports, such as the Government's response to that report and the Chief Medical Officer's Winning Ways report on reducing healthcare-associated infection. Before breaking for the Recess, we had the Government's Statement on a suspected case of vCJD

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infection, which the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, mentioned, which could have been passed on through a blood transfusion.
There are other major challenges. The noble Lord, Lord Fowler, highlighted in his extremely interesting speech the current crisis in sexual health. In addition, we have a TB crisis in some areas of the country. The test of the Bill is whether it will ensure that the new agency is up to those challenges and whether it will help the agency to have the powers and resources to carry out its mission of disease prevention and control, strengthening its ability to address emerging threats and public health emergencies.
One key consequence of the Bill, which we on these Benches thoroughly support, is to bring together the HPA and the NRPB—the National Radiological Protection Board. We believe that the incorporation of the CAMR—we must now call it HPA Porton Down, I think—and cementing the partnership that already exists between the HPA and the NRPB should ensure that the HPA can comprehensively deal with public health threats from terrorist acts. But the reality of the Bill is that the HPA is already in existence and its progress can be assessed. The HPA is now eight months old. As the Minister emphasised in his opening speech, it has been operating as a special health authority since April 2003.
The Minister was extremely upbeat in his statement about how the HPA was operating, but according to the chief executive, Dr Pat Troop, although the agency has progressed significantly in a short time, much work still needs to be done to create a single organisation. So we should not be complacent about the way in which the agency is taking shape.
It is important that the Health Protection Agency does not lose any surveillance capacity or its ability to respond during the process of giving it more independence. It is vital that there is cohesion in key areas as it attempts to bring in and merge its various component organisations, such as the PHLS and the CAMR. I welcomed the Minister's tribute to the PHLS, and not simply because the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, for whom I have considerable respect, is here. It performed an extremely valuable function. It was not the failure of the PH LS that gave rise to the Getting Ahead of the Curve proposals, but a desire to build upon existing success.
The HPA published a five-year plan in August last year and identified no fewer than 12 strategic goals. That is a very ambitious programme. The very notable first goal was to reduce the impact of infectious diseases. This is quite a formidable list of strategic goals, but particularly welcome was that of providing the public with authoritative and impartial information and advice. The PHLS did that extremely well for professionals and opinion-formers such as myself. However, I very much hope that the HPA will extend that role, and when I come to talk about resources, that will be a significant aspect.
Any purveyor of information must be trusted. I have considerable reservations, as has the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, about the Government's ability to hold
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back information and insist that the HPA does not deliver certain information. I have severe doubts about whether the public will trust the HPA if there is a hint of a suspicion that it is holding back information about particular situations.
Given that, it is the first goal which continues to attract considerable attention, especially in the context of our NHS trusts—the issue of healthcare-associated infection. If the HPA can co-ordinate efforts across the board to reduce the number of infections acquired in hospitals, it will be a notable and welcome achievement. But there has for some time been a major crisis regarding hospital-acquired infection. The noble Baroness, Lady Masham, made the case extremely well. My worry is that many health professionals in the NHS seem resigned to MRSA as a fact of life. That seems deeply worrying.
What is the truth of the matter? The Government seem to publish a new strategy on dealing with hospital-acquired infection every few months. The last one was in December. One has only to look back at past Department of Health press releases. One issued on 9 June 2003, for instance, said:
"The Chief Medical Officer Professor Sir Liam Donaldson is spearheading a new Government drive to tackle healthcare associated infections …particularly those acquired in hospitals".
Another issued in December 2003 said:
"Health Secretary John Reid today published plans for a crackdown on healthcare acquired infections, including antibiotic-resistant infections—so-called superbugs".
Holding these up to the mirror, one would find it very difficult to see much difference in what actual strategy was being proposed. So what is new? Perhaps the Government should spend some time not simply issuing good PR about how they plan to tackle MRSA and other hospital-acquired infections but making sure that their plans were implemented. I am sure, and I hope, that the HPA will have a considerable role in that process.
Although the HPA will have many significant advantages because of the way in which the various bodies are being brought together in addressing a wider area of public health issues, we on these Benches question, and continue to question—as the noble Lord, Lord Chan, did—the wisdom of transferring the PHLS microbiology laboratories across to NHS trusts last year. The excellence of the PHLS has long been envied by countries that lack such a system, including the United States. In the US, federal agencies such as the centres for disease control have relied on individual public health laboratories in various states and cities for information, many of which have outdated facilities and capabilities. Now, just when we are hiving off these microbiology laboratories, public health officials in the US are looking to create a nationwide system that would reduce the current fragmentation in their own network.
We need to ensure that we are not sacrificing high levels of excellence or creating a fragmented, unresponsive system as a result of giving public health laboratories to the NHS trusts. Throughout this debate, noble Lords have expressed concern, as did the Select Committee, regarding NHS laboratory funding,

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specifically the point that PCTs may fund microbiological testing at meagre levels that maintain the laboratories but do not allow them to thrive and develop. Careful observation will be necessary to maintain the high standards we enjoyed with the PHLS.
Last month. the noble Lord, Lord Warner, said:
"Steps have been taken to ensure that all the laboratories transferred to NHS trusts are appropriately resourced and motivated to continue to meet their public health responsibilities".
My Lords, how? The noble Lord went on to say:
"We intend that standard national operating procedures will be put in place throughout the NHS microbiological pathology service so as to improve quality and ensure consistency of reporting arrangements". —[Official Report, 8/12/03; col.617.]
Should these not be in place by now?
In the Government's response to the Select Committee, we learnt that a new inspector of microbiology is to be created, who will eventually come under the CHAI. This seems a rather strange appointment to make. If those laboratories were still within the HPA, there would be no need to appoint an inspector of microbiology. Is it not a pure fix that the Government now finally recognise that, having deconstructed a perfectly satisfactory network and put it into the NHS where it will have the possibility of fewer funds, they now need a regulator, an inspector, to make sure that the whole system does not go pear shaped? That seems to be a patch that the Government have had to create because of the flaw in their own policy. I very much hope that the Government will think again before they go full steam ahead with that particular proposal.
Evidence that laboratories have received adequate resources and maintained high quality should be gathered and made available as soon as possible. If the Government plan to carry on with the inspector of microbiology, I hope that the remit of that inspector will be wide enough to ensure that it relates to resourcing as well as to the clinical functioning of those laboratories.
There are other issues. Noble Lords have raised some very important ones regarding resourcing. The RCN supports the Bill but it has raised issues of human resources, such as the limited availability of already overstretched public health nurses and the new system's reliance on nurses to report unusual incidences of disease.
Today noble Lords raised fundamental financial issues, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg. The Minister said that no additional resource would be provided for the HPA, as though that were a great virtue. What assurance can the Minister give that the HPA's corporate plan will be fully resourced and that it will receive adequate resources to put that corporate plan into effect? What answer is there to the questions of the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, on IT and R&D?
We on these Benches support the Bill in principle. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, pointed out, there is a wider political dimension. Public health with all its many challenges needs to be given much
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greater importance. We have not had a senior Minister for public health since Tessa Jowell. As public health involves so many different policy aspects, there is even a good case for a Cabinet Minister of public health who has the authority to work with other government departments. Furthermore, the Minister of public health should, as the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, suggested, be obliged to make a public response to the HPA annual report.
Much mention has been made in the Government's response to the Fighting Infection report to a review of public health law. Not only is this important for disease registries—the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, was absolutely right to highlight their importance—but also the HPA will be central to any new powers. We have been promised a review of public health law for some time. Can the Minister now give more details of the review? When will it start? What will its timetable be?
Finally, a couple of extremely pertinent questions were raised regarding the nature of the HPA. I refer to the level of independence of the HPA. As a number of noble Lords asked, will it have the same status as the FSA, or will the Government fall again into the trap of micromanaging an agency, as the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, fears? The noble Lord, Lord Soulsby, raised the very pertinent question of whether the HPA will have a vaccine development capability. Along with a number of other noble Lords, I am being lobbied on that issue to an increasing extent. I have considerable concerns about our vaccine development capacity. Is the Minister convinced that our current arrangements are adequate for our needs? I look forward to hearing the Minister's reply.
5.12 p.m.
Earl Howe: My Lords, this debate has been an interesting and worthy start to our proceedings in 2004. In common with other noble Lords I should like to express my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Warner, for the clear and helpful manner in which he introduced it. As he said, we are dealing with a Bill of considerable importance and underlying substance, to which from these Benches I am happy to extend a general welcome. However, the style of that welcome has to be somewhat cautious. While the Bill may not exactly deliver us into the realms of high political controversy, it would be odd if there were not features of it which caused us a degree of hesitation and, indeed, disquiet. I shall come to those shortly.
In looking at a Bill of this kind it is helpful to set the scene, as the Minister did. As might be expected, the scene from where I am standing looks rather different from the one described by the noble Lord, Lord Warner. Looking at the wider picture I would be the first to acknowledge that in certain areas the Government's public health record has been quite good; perhaps the best examples of that being the vaccination programme against meningitis and the immunisation of vulnerable groups against influenza. Unfortunately, though, one cannot say the same thing universally. The persistent prevalence of tuberculosis, particularly in London, is quite simply a disaster. The same could be said for

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hospital acquired infections which are rampant in the NHS but, interestingly, rare in the private sector. HIV/AIDS has dramatically increased in the past couple of years and shows no sign of abating. Where is the strategy to tackle it? I have not seen it.
In sexual health more generally, cases of chlamydia have gone up by 78 per cent in four years. Gonorrhoea has increased by 86 per cent in five years, yet, as my noble friend Lord Fowler pointed out, there is a shortage of consultants, health visitors and facilities in all those disciplines.
Perhaps the most worrying area of all, however, is that of diabetes linked to obesity. No fewer than 38 per cent of adults are now overweight, as clinically defined, and 20 per cent obese. If present trends continue, a quarter of the population will be obese by 2010, with massive consequences for human health and NHS resources. I have not met anyone who thinks that the Government have a credible plan to frustrate those predictions. We can only live in hope that, even if belatedly, they will produce one.
Whatever Ministers may have been doing on the public health front, it has certainly not been enough. Rather too much attention has been devoted during the past few years to reorganising the health service and rather too little to the serious problems presented by transmissible infections.
My mentioning the reorganisation of the health service is not irrelevant. I am sure that many of us can wholeheartedly sign up to the concept of devolving the power downwards from Whitehall and of promoting local accountability and local priority setting on the part of doctors, nurses and managers. That is definitely the positive side of shifting the balance of power.
However, that blueprint is in danger of coming apart in those areas that demand a broader-based approach, chief of those being specialised commissioning and public health. The delivery of public health protection has to be local, but the overarching activities of research, surveillance and planning require a comprehensive, population-based approach, not fragmentation. Those activities do not fall naturally into the laps of PCTs. As the Health Select Committee in another place pointed out, PCTs tend to focus almost exclusively on commissioning and diagnostic and treatment services in an essentially reactive context.
The reason for concern is that when it comes to expertise in public health, PCTs are finding that the jam is spread very thinly among them. When we read, as we did recently, of the CMO speaking of the need for more public health training for trust managers, the thinness of the jam becomes even more apparent. The jury is still out on whether PCTs will succeed in fulfilling that particular aspect of their role in the way that everybody wants.
Therefore, the creation of the Health Protection Agency as a national body that takes the lead on surveillance, research and planning across the UK and across a broad front has always been a logical concept. A body that looks strategically at the threats to public
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health, engages in horizon scanning, prepares for emergencies, conducts relevant research and advises government seems to have a natural place in the scheme of things.
It is therefore reassuring to see that one of the key roles of the HPA is to give support to PCTs in the planning and delivery of public health measures at a local level. My goodness, they need that. They need it in particular to cope effectively with the control of infection, sometimes in uncharted situations where speed is of the essence. Sixty per cent of all ill health is due to infectious disease. Those of us who listened to. or read, the debate led by my noble friend Lord Soulsby on 8 December last year will have been struck by how very apt a precursor it was to the subject matter that we are debating today. I recall in particular the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, who so clearly spelled out what is difficult about framing public health policy in the 21st century; that is, that the backcloth against which public health professionals operate is constantly changing. Not only is it constantly changing, but it is also unpredictable in many respects. The rapid movement of people and goods across the world, population growth in third world countries, and climate change together almost guarantee the creation of new and virulent pathogens that can wreak havoc in developed countries such as our own unless we are extremely vigilant.
The HPA will be the eyes and ears of the nation for threats such as those, and the voice of the nation in terms of how we should deal with emergencies when they occur. Of course, we already have the Health Protection Agency as established as a special health authority. It is early days yet, but it seems to have got off to a satisfactory start. As we have heard, the Bill establishes the agency on a different footing as a non-departmental public body and expands its statutory remit in a number of ways. I have little problem with the idea of reconstituting the agency as an NDPB. Indeed, as it currently is, its glaring shortcoming is that its remit is confined to England and Wales. For an area of activity such as public health that is no respecter of boundaries on a map. that makes no sense.
That shortcoming will be addressed in the proposed change of status, although not entirely so. We cannot unwind the clock on devolution, and I shall not argue that we should. However, even the most ardent admirer of devolved government has to concede that the administrative contortions with which the agency will need to contend that are directly consequent on devolution are, at the very least, not conducive to its efficiency or coherence. I have not attempted to quantify the proportion of the Bill devoted to the different arrangements that will apply in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, but it is quite substantial.
Perhaps the biggest question mark in the Bill—here I diverge slightly from the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones—hangs over Clause 3 and the related provisions. It always sounds persuasive to hear the argument that if one can bring similar expertise that was previously dispersed across several organisations under the umbrella of a single body, that can be only a good thing. However, it is not an argument that in every case should

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be taken as read. The counter-argument to it is that, by doing away with a discrete centre of excellence, we lose focus, risk an erosion of the expertise and the research base, and inevitably erode intangible assets such as international reputation.
In an area as important as radiation protection, those concerns should be taken seriously. I read the response of the National Radiological Protection Board to the Government's consultation document. The clear message that emerged was that the NRPB was not convinced by the arguments for change and favoured remaining as it is, although with full co-ordination with the agency. I cannot believe that that can he dismissed merely as special pleading. I have not spoken to the NRPB and I apologise to it if my interpretation of its words is wrong, but I give the Minister notice that we shall come back to the concerns on that issue in Committee.
We do not need to dwell too long on what is now a fait accompli, namely the disbanding of the PHLS and the distribution of its laboratories between the agency and the NHS, but we need to debate the consequences of that decision. One argument in favour of integrating allied expertise within a single agency is that it creates surge capacity for dealing with emergencies. For the agency, that may prove true and valid on one level, providing that it is resourced properly, a point made by many noble Lords. However, when it comes to laboratory capacity, the story is not so simple.
The agency may persuade itself that it has access to the laboratories now run by the NHS, but the fact remains that it no longer controls those laboratories. As the report of your Lordships' Science and Technology Committee pointed out, the ability to direct activity within a managed network of laboratories such as existed under the PHLS was decidedly beneficial. It enabled resources to be directed in a co-ordinated manner, and provided inbuilt surge support when problems occurred. The HPA will have a job on its hands to ensure that the essential public health functions of the laboratories, especially in times of emergency but including their surveillance functions, are not disrupted by competing pressures from the acute healthcare sector.
Lastly, I turn to the agency's international role, which will be extremely important. International collaboration is essential in the fight against infection. The reputation of our national body for impartiality and expertise will be key to its effectiveness on that front. That is why we should look severely askance at the ministerial powers of direction which pepper the Bill. In specific circumstances where speed of action is essential to the public interest, there may be a case for a limited power of direction. But otherwise, we must question the necessity for it. We shall do exactly that when we return to the Bill in Committee.
For now, I shall conclude on as positive a note as I can. It is important that we wish the agency well in its vital tasks that lie ahead. At the conclusion of the Bill I hope that we may all emerge reassured and as confident as possible that both the legislative base and
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the prevailing conditions are set fair for the agency to achieve the full range of its objectives. I look forward to our further deliberations towards that end.
5.26 p.m.
Lord Warner: My Lords, we have had a wide-ranging and well informed debate and I am grateful to noble Lords for their contributions. I begin by making a small correction to my opening speech. I said that the Secretary of State intended to delegate future appointments to the NHS Appointments Commission. I had overlooked the fact that the Secretary of State has no power to do that in relation to Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. To avoid allegations that I have misled the House, I felt that I should correct that point.
The noble Lord, Lord Fowler, spoke powerfully about HIV/AIDS. I thought, in passing, that he was a shade unkind to the Government. We are committed to tackling the increasing rates of HIV and sexually transmitted disease infections. Over the past two years we have invested over £35 million in specialist STI clinics, including an additional £15 million that was recently announced by John Reid. So, there is a real attempt to improve capacity. We believe that the HPA's sophisticated surveillance provides the opportunity, as the noble Lord acknowledged, for a comprehensive picture of the HIV/AIDS epidemic that allows us better to target our prevention efforts and planned services for those people infected or afflicted by HIV/AIDS.
The noble Lord, Lord Fowler, and other noble Lords also raised the issue of whether the HPA would be able to decide of its own volition to publish particular reports or information. No doubt we will debate the matter in Committee, but we believe that Clause 7 makes it clear that it is for the HPA to make the decision on whether or not to publish particular information or reports. As I understand the position, that is on a par with the arrangements that were put in place for the Food Standards Agency; so, it is the body itself which determines whether or not to publish particular information. There is no question of sinister characters such as John Reid or myself overruling the agency in that matter. Indeed, only the Food Standards Agency and the HPA are in that position. The Secretary of State has no power of direction in relation to the publication of that information. I hope that that reassures noble Lords over the agency's independent ability to publish that information.
The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, raised a number of points, and I am grateful for her recognition of the prospect of advances offered by the Bill. I hope that I can give some reassurance to her and to a number of noble Lords who raised the question of resources. I can assure the House that I shall keep going for five minutes at least. I hope that my response to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, on the issue of resources will deal with many of the concerns raised by other noble Lords.
I believe that possible confusion over what I said relates to the questions of what counts as public expenditure and the period to which it relates. In my

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opening remarks, I said that the Bill contains no proposed increase in new public expenditure commitments. However, the 2002 spending review settlement already contained provision for an approximate increase of £25 million per year between 2003 –04— the current year—and 2004–05 and 2005–06. Thus, the old SHA would have had that increase in provision, and the plan is to carry that through to the Health Protection Agency. Therefore, the Explanatory Notes are written as they are because that is already factored into the spending plans of the bodies involved. If that caused confusion, I apologise. However, I place clearly on the record that the intention is to plan for a £25 million or so increase in the provision between 2003–04 and 2004–05.
The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, raised the question of radiological protection in relation to Wales. The intention is that the HPA will continue to provide the same level of service in Wales, as it will in Northern Ireland, without charge in this area. Therefore, there is no intention whatever to reduce the level of service. If the level of service costs a little more, that will be provided for in the budgetary arrangements which I mentioned. I hope that the noble Baroness is reassured on that point.
My noble friend Lord Turnberg raised a number of points, including the issue of resources, and I hope that I dealt with those. At this point, I pay tribute to the work carried out by my noble friend as chairman of the Public Health Laboratory Service. As referred to by a number of noble Lords, I acknowledge that it was not a sense of failure on the part of the PHLS that caused us to move towards the agenda of establishing a Health Protection Agency. There has been enormous commitment within that organisation in terms of public service and a great deal is owed to the PHLS.
My noble friend Lord Turnberg raised a number of issues relating to micro-management, staff and research. On the subject of micro-management, I say to my noble friend that, as I believe I have tried to make clear on a number of occasions, we are reducing the size of the Department of Health by about 38 per cent. Therefore, even if there were a wish on the part of the staff of the Department of Health to micro-manage this new service, their capacity to do so would be substantially reduced. Certainly so far as concerns this Minister, as a responsible Minister with departmental management duties in the Department of Health, I can say that there is no wish on our part to move into the field of micro-management.
A number of noble Lords raised the issue of research and staffing. I refer them to a piece of work to which the agency has already committed itself in terms of key gains. Two of these key gains are to develop a more knowledgeable and skilled health protection staff and to increase research into health protection. So there is a real commitment by the embryonic agency to tackle the issue of skilled staff, which is not easy—no one claims it is—and the issue of research.
The noble Lord, Lord Soulsby, raised a number of issues on vaccines. What I will say, which may not totally reassure him, is that we have, as I said in the
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earlier debate, on several occasions considered the whole issue of a centrally funded strategic vaccines facility. However, the evidence has yet to convince us that there is a case for allocating the funds required—approximately £30 million—or that there is an adequate description of exactly what such a centre would provide. Development and production of a new vaccine takes many months and is not a first-line response to a new or emerging infectious disease.
The Department of Health values the HPA Porton Down's work in drafting the emergency vaccine facility's business case. After very serious consideration and discussions with the Ministry of Defence, it has decided to define wider UK requirements more carefully before proceeding. This work is in hand with a number of partners, including the Health Protection Agency. I think that that is our current position on the whole issue of vaccines.
The noble Lord, Lord Soulsby, also raised the issue—as I understood him—about why the HPA is not established on the same basis as the Food Standards Agency. The FSA is a non-ministerial department, which is of course a Crown body and therefore part of the Government; the HPA, as a non-departmental public body, is not a Crown body and is therefore not a part of government. That was a decision taken, but it reflects the high level of independence of the HPA. That, taken together with the point I made earlier about its ability to publish its information no matter where the chips fall, is an important part of that independence.
The noble Baroness, Lady Masham, raised a number of issues relating to HCAIs and MRSA, as did the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and a number of other noble Lords. I think that the position is fairly clear. The Government have made an attempt to produce a strategy; they did so last year.
In December the Chief Medical Officer published a new action plan. It is not just a press notice, it is the CMO's action plan giving new emphasis and more detail about what needs to be done to try to crack this extraordinarily difficult issue of healthcare associated infections. The situation is not unique to this country, many countries have problems with HCAIs. Winning Ways: Working together to reduce Healthcare Associated Infection in England, for example, lists a number of changes which we hope will produce a better response within the healthcare field. In particular, there is a requirement for every trust to have a director of infection prevention and control who reports at board level. That is a new initiative to try to get at the local level someone clearly responsible and accountable for tackling this particular area of difficulty. These are not easy problems to tackle, as noble Lords know, but the Government are on the case and trying to make progress through the work of the CMO.
The noble Baroness, Lady Masham, asked what part the HPA will play on blood safety. The National Blood Authority is of course responsible for blood supply. It works closely with the HPA on risks from blood-borne infections. The noble Baroness also asked whether there would be a veterinary section in the

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HPA. The answer is no, but the agency will be responsible for taking an overview of all relevant surveillance systems, including those for animals, which is of course the responsibility of Defra. We are very conscious of the risks posed by zoonosis infections that can be spread from animals to humans.
The noble Lords, Lord Chan and Lord Clement-Jones, and the noble Earl, Lord Howe, raised the issue of PCTs. PCTs are new bodies and, like all new bodies, they will take time to move to full effectiveness. We are now in a situation where 75 per cent of NHS resources are distributed through PCTs. They can prioritise public health in a way that is possibly a little different from the way it was done in the past and, as I tried to say in my opening speech, they will be well supported by the HPA. There is a relationship there. The new memorandum of understanding that I mentioned which is being drawn up between the HPA and the PCTs demonstrates the kind of good working relationship that is being developed.
I mentioned some of the key objectives that the agency has set for itself. Another objective, as the agency itself puts it, is to ensure,
"From Cumbria to Cornwall, the same high standards of response to an outbreak or incident."
The HPA is conscious of the need to ensure greater consistency in the response at local level to public health issues.
I was sorry to see the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, picking over the bones of the PHLS. I was gratified that the noble Earl, Lord Howe, showed a slightly more statesmanlike approach to this particular issue. This is now, as far as we are concerned, water under the bridge. The decision has been taken and the laboratories have been transferred to NHS trusts, although the HPA retains eight laboratories that it runs itself. I am not sure there is a great deal of merit in going over that ground again.
All NHS-run microbiology laboratories are being required to seek accreditation, and, as the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, said, there will be a new inspector of microbiology whose role is to champion and promote high quality clinical and public health microbiology. The inspector will look after both the former PHLS laboratories, which provide routine microbiology services, and also a much larger number of laboratories—approximately 300—providing the same sorts of services that were already under local NHS management. There is therefore a prospect of driving up standards across a wider number of laboratories, rather than just concentrating on the former Public Health Laboratory Services laboratories, important though they were.
I think I have dealt with most of the points that the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, raised in regard to my remarks on similar points raised by other noble Lords. We will have to wait for the business plans from the new agency. I was not trying to be complacent in my opening remarks, which the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones called "upbeat". I was trying to get across the message that, in eight months, the new agency has done pretty well in trying to tackle some of
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problems that it faced. It is worth pointing out, if I dare say it again, that these changes are being introduced in a context where NHS spending is increasing by 7 per cent in real terms over a five-year period. We are therefore introducing these changes in a period of relative plenty, compared with previous eras.
The National Radiological Protection Board did say what the noble Earl said it said in its response to the consultation exercise, but, again, it has moved on. I am sure that he will want to make his own inquiries about that, but it has moved on and accepts that the changes to be made are sensible. It has been reassured by Scotland's attitude in its willingness to continue to use those services, which provide benefit to the devolved administrations.
I have dealt with most points that the noble Earl raised in responding to other noble Lords. He raised the subject of obesity; we know that that is a serious problem. I tried to set out to the House the Government's thinking on that in a debate not long before Christmas. If I have failed to answer any points, I shall read Hansard and write to noble Lords.
On Question, Bill read a second time and committed to a Grand Committee.

Single Transferable Vote
5.46 p.m.
Earl Russell Earl Russell rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have considered the possibility that the introduction of the single transferable vote might increase the level of public participation in politics.
The noble Earl said: My Lords, I must declare an interest as president of the Electoral Reform Society. I shall speak as much in that capacity as 1 will as a member of my party. Although there are certain broad similarities between the views of my party and those of the society, it is on behalf of the society that I shall speak today.
There is a general sense of dismay at the lack of value being placed on the vote in many quarters. By contrast, I vividly remember going into my newsagents on the day of the first South African election. My newsagents were Natal Indians and I shall never forget the sense of pride that suffused the whole of their expressions on that day. That has been felt here. It does not seem to be felt nearly as widely now.
The point about the vote is that what is significant is not what happens when you have it but what happens when you do not. It is what my wife used to say about cancer. It does not make much difference if you do it but it makes an enormous amount of difference if you do not. If you do not have the vote, people can oppress you with as much freedom as they like. That does not prove that they necessarily will, but to give them the opportunity is not always wise. So there is a degree of safety in possessing the vote, of which people are not always aware.
At the same time as we are hearing more and more complaints of lack of interest in the vote, more and more people are complaining about the rise of interest

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in single-issue politics. Voters have a right to be interested in single issues if they want to be. In a democracy, that right cannot and should not be taken away from them.
I admit that those who deal in single issues must at the same time learn that single issues, uncontrolled and unplanned, get a little like driving on the dodgems: you tend to get a rather bumpy ride. The relationship between single issues is something to which people must learn to pay attention, but if single issues are where their interest begins, I do not see why it should not. After all, not every political interest takes the form of a ready-made, off-the-peg commitment to a party philosophy. That is especially true at a moment when the philosophies of all the parties are in the garage for their 100-year service. Political parties will never cease to need that.
It is important that the range of issues on which people feel capable of having an opinion, and on which they are interested in having one, is much wider and much less exclusively national than previously. The debate on GM crops, for example, is much more than a national issue and must be pursued, whichever side you are on, in something beyond the national forum. A single national political party, therefore, is not necessarily the best vehicle for pursuing the issue.
We are getting into a situation in which people no longer take their political parties by inheritance. Even when I started canvassing—not that long ago—people almost always voted in the same way as their families did. I even heard, "I must ask my husband", as recently as three years ago. That was quite a shock three years ago, but it reminded me of how common the attitude used to be.
Hereditary politics are disappearing. Their disappearance must lead to a decline in off-the-peg commitments to party philosophies as a whole, as the two things are logically interlocked. If the interest is individual, it will begin in interest in an individual issue. Issues such as Europe or those arising in some of the recent debates in this House on public morals and the law create alliances on both sides of the argument which create passion across the Chamber far beyond the boundaries of parties. I do not see how one can hope to run a live and vibrant political system that does not allow for those interests which are outside, above or beside parties.
Only one electoral system allows people to express their opinion on a single issue. There are many different forms of proportional representation, with different virtues and different uses. The particular distinctive use of the single transferable vote is that it allows you to vote across party boundaries for the supporters or opponents of a particular cause.
In our recent debates on questions such as the age of consent or gay adoption, for example, one could think of plenty of people who would have wanted to vote perhaps for three people from three different quarters of the Chamber, and who would have wished to do so in all consistency. In a national election, I do not see
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why that should not be a democratic right. If it is not a democratic right, it will be much harder to get people interested in participation than it would be otherwise.
If we have the individual conscience working on individual issues, I do not see why that should not allow votes for individual candidates in preference to other candidates from the same party. After all, the present system has been described as a closed list of one. There are problems in that description, but I can see perfectly well what it is getting at. If the object of democracy is to discover the opinions of the voters—and there are strong opinions among the voters that go across party boundaries—I do not see why that should not be heard. I am not suggesting that it should be mandatory, and I fully accept the whole of Burke's argument that an MP is a representative and not a delegate. However, I think that before an MP represents, he, or she, should have had the chance to listen to what he should be listening to. I see no way that this can be done except through the single transferable vote.
If it can engage more people in the political process, it can do only good. I think that this will be particularly true among the young, because they are the extreme example of the departure from hereditary politics. The proportion of my own pupils who voted for the same party as their parents was remarkably low. In fact, they were making choices as they went along, often for reasons of which their parents knew nothing and cared less.
Indeed, if we try the parties by the standards of their ancestors, a great many of them fail to measure up. If we want a free-thinking, free-voting, lively and independent democracy, there is a strong argument for saying that the single transferable vote is likely to be the best way of getting it. That way, since the concern about the small number of people voting is deep and genuine, we just might kill two birds with one stone. It is a rare achievement, but it is nice when you can do it.
5.57 p.m.
Lord Norton of Louth: My Lords, I congratulate the noble Earl, Lord Russell, on raising this Question. There have been reports of private discussions between the Prime Minister and the leader of the Liberal Democrats on electoral reform. I therefore welcome the opportunity to put on the public record why changing our electoral system would be detrimental to the health of the British polity, and why the proposal put forward by the noble Earl will not address the root of the problem of declining public participation in politics. Rather, utilising the single transferable vote for parliamentary elections has the potential to make the problem worse. As such, it would constitute part of the problem and not part of the solution.
I shall address first the basic problem inherent in adopting a system of proportional representation for parliamentary elections. One of the fundamental attributes of our present political system is that it delivers accountability. The late, distinguished philosopher, Sir Karl Popper, argued that the most important feature of a political system was not how it

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enabled a government to be chosen, but rather how it ensured that a government could be removed peacefully from office. The electoral system of the United Kingdom, he argued, facilitated the removal of the government from office. Election day constituted judgment day. That is something that we should seek to preserve.
Under our existing system, one body, the party in government, is responsible for public policy. It is returned to office on the basis of a particular programme. If it fails to deliver, electors know that they can sweep it from office at the next election. Awareness of electoral mortality encourages the government to be responsive to public opinion between elections in a way that is often not encouraged in other systems, where politicians know they can engage in post-election bargaining in order to stay in office. Accountability is thus fundamental to our political system. That, I think, is worth protecting. I believe that electors take the same view. Surveys reveal that. when asked, electors tend to favour electoral reform. However, when asked about the consequences of electoral systems, they tend to favour the consequences that result from our existing first-past-the-post electoral system. I should also record that one should be wary of citing polls that show people favour electoral reform. Some years ago, in a poll where respondents were probed more deeply, it emerged that most did not feel strongly about electoral reform and twice as many had never heard of proportional representation as those that claimed to know quite a lot about it.
Accountability is but one reason why we should retain our existing electoral system. There are several others. The system that we have provides a direct and exclusive link between citizens and Members of Parliament. It tempers party control through giving MPs a local base. The constituency can, on occasion, provide a protective shield against the demands of the Whips. It also provides some degree of proportionality of power.
Supporters of proportional representation define proportionality solely in terms of the relationship of votes to seats. However, if 10 per cent of the votes deliver 10 per cent of the seats, they do not necessarily deliver 10 per cent of the negotiating power in the House of Commons. The result can be disproportionate negotiating power, far in excess of anything justified by the number of votes gained. If proportionality is defined instead in terms of the ratio of votes gained to the time spent in government, the UK system has proved more proportional than many other Western systems. Thus, there is a powerful prima facie case for retaining our existing electoral system.
Are the attributes that I have outlined outweighed by the benefits ascribed to the PR system of the single transferable vote? The answer is an unequivocal "no". One argument advanced for STV is that it retains the link between Members and constituencies. Members are elected in multi-member constituencies. However, that has generated a particular problem. STV in Ireland has contributed to the phenomenon of localism and
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Members of the Dáil devoting disproportionate time to their constituencies and failing to engage in the collective task of scrutinising the executive.
Eunan O'Halpin, in his chapter on Ireland in Parliaments and Governments in Western Europe, which I edited in 1998, records the claim that Members of the Dail play a subsidiary role in policy-making and scrutinising the executive and that,
"most dissipate their energies in electorally rewarding but nationally futile brokerage (interceding with central and local bureaucracy on behalf of individual constituents or groups of constituents)".
Interestingly, in this context, there have been calls in Ireland for reform of the electoral system in order to reduce this incentive to localism. Indeed, Fianna Fáil has previously made the case for adopting the first-past-the-post system. In the United Kingdom, we manage to maintain a balance between constituency work and scrutinising the executive. We should not be going down the route of seeking to be like the Dáil, which is one of the weakest parliaments in western Europe.
But would not the introduction of a system of STV increase turnout in general elections? That is what the noble Earl is asking the Government to consider. Again, perhaps we may look at the experience of STV in Ireland. What has happened to turnout in general elections there? Turnout has fallen substantially over the past eight or nine general elections, from roughly three-quarters of the electorate voting to two-thirds.
Earl Russell: My Lords, Ireland is one conspicuous exception to the point that I was making about the greater range of issues that concern people. Over there, the whole of their politics is due for a 100-year service.
Lord Norton of Louth: My Lords, I shall come to the point made by the noble Earl about pressure groups, but I must point out that all the experience of STV in Europe is in terms of Ireland. My point is that it does not provide much of a basis on which we can consider going forward.
On that basis, the Government may find that there is not much to consider. But if that does not persuade the Government, perhaps we should look elsewhere. Let us not look at Ireland; let us look at elections to the European Parliament. In Britain, we have moved from the first-past-the-post system to a regional list system of proportional representation. What has happened? Has turnout increased? The answer is "no". Introducing a system of proportional representation has done nothing to increase public participation in politics.
There has been a decline in mainstream political activity over the years. There has been a decline over time in the number of people joining political parties. There has been something of a decline—although not the consistent decline that some critics claim—in turnout at general elections. Voting by young people, a body that traditionally has a low turnout, is even lower now than it was 30 years ago. However, I stress that the decline has been in what I have called mainstream

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political activity; that is, people engaging through the political parties and supporting those parties in the polling booths
There has not necessarily been a decline in political activity as such. Rather, people have found outlets for political activity other than through the political parties. As the noble Earl mentioned, they have joined interest groups, including single-issue groups, which enable them to focus on issues of particular concern to them. They have also proved willing to engage in demonstrations and to sign petitions. People will take to the streets if they disagree strongly with a policy, but they appear reluctant to engage in the process by which policy is made.
Why, then, the decline in mainstream political participation? It has nothing to do with the electoral process. I wish to suggest two reasons, one in respect of political parties and the other in respect of power.
Political parties have proved less attractive to people than before, at times because they do not appear to offer electors much of a choice, but more enduringly, I believe, because there are now far more competing attractions than there were in the 1950s and 1960s. There has been a significant growth in the number of interest groups and concerns about public policy are being absorbed by such groups. There has been a burgeoning of attractions outside the realm of the political, facilitated by the expansion of the mass media and now by the Internet. It is difficult for political parties to compete. Catch-all political parties, geared to discussing and generating public policy, can offer little to compete with the quick, easy and transient attraction of "Pop Idol".
Fragmentation of political power is also a problem. Where now is political power to be found? There are competing centres of power. There is what I have termed the paradox of accountability; that is, the more elected bodies you have, the less accountable each one becomes. There is confusion on the part of electors over who is responsible for what. There is a perception—in this case, perception is important—that a great deal of decision-making power has passed to the institutions of the European Union. Organised groups may know how to lobby Brussels effectively, but the ordinary citizen does not. As power flows to different bodies, especially upwards to the European Union, there is the danger that people will feel helpless in the face of this development and turn their backs on mainstream political activity. If power is seen to be flowing to other institutions, what is the point of voting?
What flows from this is that we need to address the causes of declining participation in mainstream political activity and to consider what might, if anything, serve to reverse the trend. The noble Earl, Lord Russell, has noted the problem, but has not come up with a viable solution. Rather, if we have a system of proportional representation—destroying, as it is likely to do, the core accountability at the heart of our political system—that will add to the problem, denying electors the opportunity to call government to account. That is not the road down which we should
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be going. Other countries are experiencing similar problems. Adopting one of their electoral systems is not the answer.
6.8 p.m.
Lord Greaves: My Lords, it is a privilege to take part in a debate initiated by my noble friend Lord Russell, and I congratulate him. It is also a privilege to follow the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, who has made an extremely eloquent and interesting speech setting out what I would describe as the reactionary Conservative position, which of course he is entitled to do.
Lord Norton of Louth: My Lords, I rise on a point of clarification. To be reactionary is to support the status quo ante. I am being conservative.
Lord Greaves: My Lords, I am quite happy for the noble Lord to describe himself as he wishes. He is certainly a Conservative. While I am tempted to spend all of my time picking apart item by item what the noble Lord has just said, I shall try to resist doing so. However, I am bound to say that when he referred to accountability and the ability of the electorate to boot out the government in power, I am reminded of the general election held in 1951. The electors voted to keep the Labour government in power, but because of the quirks of the electoral system and despite the fact that Labour won more votes than the Conservatives, it was the Conservatives who secured a working majority. I do not consider that to be accountable.
It is also said that because the quirks of the electoral system have now shifted away from a natural bias towards the Conservatives—which existed for much of our lifetime—to a strong natural bias towards Labour, the present Government could receive as little as 37 or 38 per cent of the vote at the next general election and still retain power. So almost two-thirds of the electorate could vote against them but they would still be there. The noble Lord is entitled to believe that that adds up to accountability, but I do not believe that it does.
The noble Lord mentioned the situation in the Republic of Ireland where, at various times, the two largest parties have wanted to move towards a system of first-past-the-post. Fianna Fáil is consistent in wanting to do so. Of course it is. If the Republic was to adopt a system of first-past-the-post, Fianna Fáil believes it would get an overall majority on a minority of votes.
It is interesting that whenever the political parties in Ireland have tried to introduce the system through a referendum, the people of Ireland have said, "No. We like STV and we are going to keep it. The politicians had better operate under STV because that is the way in which we, the people, can maintain the greatest amount of influence and control over our politicians". As I will make clear later, that is what STV achieves.
Of course this not only concerns Westminster elections. We have local elections and European elections; we now have elections in Scotland and Wales to the Parliament and the Assembly; and there may soon

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be elections to the feeble regional authorities that the Government want to establish in certain parts of the country. It is interesting that there is a steady movement towards forms of proportional representation for these different elections. It is quite clear that the Scottish Parliament, the Scottish Executive, will introduce proportional representation—probably STV—for local elections in Scotland. There is a general view there that, if that happens, the Scottish parliamentary elections will not he long following.
If that happens, it could be the beginning of what the noble Lord, Lord Norton, would perhaps see as a rather slippery slope but which others would see as the opening of the gates to an idea which has been around for a long time. Those of us who, for a long time, trod the streets on behalf of the Liberal Party—Liberal Democrats seem to have been doing so for the party's lifetime—believe that STV's time is coming and may well come within our lifetime.
It used to be called the "British" system of proportional representation. It is interesting that when we started to adopt proportional representation for various elections we moved instead to non-British systems of lists and top-up lists, where the candidates are listed in order by the political parties. This represents the old political parties trying to exercise control through a system which prevents the people from having the control that STV would give them.
No system is perfect—there are defects with STV as with any other system—but STV gives power to individual voters more than any other system. It not only allows them to cast their votes for individual candidates and, as my noble friend said, to choose between candidates from a particular party according to their views on issues they think important, it forces them to do so. It forces them to put the candidates in order. If they want to vote for the Labour Party, it forces them to put in order the candidates from the Labour Party. If they have strong views about which of those candidates is better than the others, it allows them to do that. Parties do not like that, because they like to keep control of the process and to determine exactly who gets elected when they get so many votes. However, it is an old-fashioned idea that parties should have that kind of control and authority.
The second thing that STV does, as my noble friend said, is to allow people to vote across parties if individual issues are what move them to vote. It is true that individual issue politics has become far more important in recent years. STV would allow them to vote for the candidates who have those views, regardless of which party they belong to. It also allows voters to transfer their preferences from their favoured party to other parties later on, in order to increase the amount of influence that they have over the final result.
In local politics, that gives hope to independents. People say that independents cannot succeed under STV, but that is absolute nonsense. Strong independents will do well under STV. For example, in a five-member STV seat, a strong independent would have to get only nearly 17 per cent of the vote to be guaranteed to be elected. In
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practice, if they picked up lots of transfers across the board, they might well be elected with quite a few votes fewer than that. It would make it possible for people who are at the moment kept out by the party system to come in and add variety and interest.
Again, political parties do not like that—and I do not suppose that my own political party likes it too much, either. However, that is something that STV does that is very important. It increases dramatically the chances that people's votes will actually count towards the final result. In a five-member seat, probably more than 80 per cent and perhaps much more than 80 per cent of people who vote will have achieved influence over the final list of those who are elected. Under first past the post, the number can be as low as 20 per cent in very safe seats. The question then is whether it is worth people bothering to go to vote or even to send their postal votes back, because it will not make any difference to the result. Under STV, the way in which individuals vote is highly likely to have an influence on who gets elected. Surely, that would encourage people to take part in the system.
STV is surely the system that provides the greatest accountability between the individual voter and those who are elected. That is the most important thing. All the arguments that the noble Lord, Lord Norton, puts forward about electing a national government, even if they are valid, do not apply to any of the other forums.
I should like to end by casting some doubt on whether turnout in elections is going down in a permanent and significant way. Certainly, at the moment, turnout seems to be low. The question is whether it is a short-term phenomenon or something that will affect the body politic for a long time. From a graph produced by the House of Commons Library, in one of its publications, it is clear that in general elections turnout peaked in 1950 and that between 1950 and 1966, there was a gentle decline—if one draws some obvious straight-line graphs at the top of the bar chart. Between 1950 and 1966, turnout declined fairly steadily and gently, and in 1970 it was 72 per cent. Between 1974 and 1992, it is difficult to argue that turnout went down at all. It fluctuated, but there were highs at each end and slightly lower troughs in the middle. The phenomenon of reduced turnout possibly started in 1997—although we could include that in the series. However, it does seem to have happened at the last general election, and it has occurred in other elections.
In local elections, turnout in recent times peaked in 1990. Again, I am taking this information from figures in a House of Commons Library research paper. For those of us who remember campaigning in the 1990 local elections, turnout peaked then for very obvious reasons. It was the time of the poll tax, and that was the election at which the people of Britain rose up and said, "We don't want the poll tax and we're going to vote against it". Regrettably, most of them voted Labour as a result, but not in all places. But it does not matter—the result at that election was caused by the political circumstances of the time, not by the electoral system or anything else.

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Although local election turnouts have declined almost year by year since then—there had not been that kind of dramatic local political context in most places—there is some evidence that that decline has now ceased and might be reversing. We will not find out until two or three more years have passed. But I advise against a counsel of despair—people should not say that electoral turnout in this country is going down and down and that this will be the case for ever and a day. It will not. When people really feel angry, and they feel the need to feel angry, they will vote.
Finally, STV provides the opportunity for people to be angry about a much wider range of issues and have more influence on the result. It is therefore, in my judgment, likely to encourage people to turn out to vote.
6.21 p.m.
Lord Alexander of Weedon: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Russell, for introducing this debate, not least because it gives me an opportunity to pay tribute to the unfailing contribution that he makes to the work of this House. He combines an unrivalled knowledge of history with an acute sensitivity to contemporary events that enrich our work. It is typical of that sense of purpose that he has raised what is a priority for parliamentary reform.
The Government are planning yet further limited change to this House. They have decided to avoid their initial promise of providing a more democratic and representative House of Lords and their support in their last election manifesto for an elected element in this House. They are tinkering with a niggardly measure which—rightly, in my view—has secured cross-party rebellion. And yet, they are not showing any interest at all in change to the shape of the other place.
This is probably for a simple reason. It is probably because the House of Commons, unlike the House of Lords, is a largely subservient assembly. In the last Parliament, it was totally subservient to the Government. There were 1,000 Divisions, and the Government won exactly 1,000 of them. In this Parliament, there are more stirrings from the discontented and disaffected. But in the end, as over Iraq and foundation hospitals, the Government, after the dramas, get their way.
We have to think of some fundamental questions. How real is parliamentary accountability? How representative are Members of Parliament? That issue is beginning to strike some Members of this House when they consider the difference in attitude to fox hunting between the Members on the Government Benches in the other place and the public. How real is the old claim, going back to 1689, that Parliament is truly sovereign? Or is the reality that we increasingly have what Lord Hailsham famously described more than 25 years ago as an elective dictatorship?
In 1997, the Government had no doubt that the issue should be promptly debated and the people given a voice. They made a clear manifesto promise, as no doubt the Minister will confirm in his response, to set
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up an independent commission to propose alternatives to the first-past-the-post voting system. They made an unequivocal promise that there would be a referendum on the outcome of the work of that commission. They then recognised, rightly, that there was a need to offer the voters a choice whether they wished to change and improve the voting system.
The commission was established commendably promptly under the chairmanship of the late Lord Jenkins. I was fortunate enough to be asked to be a member. We were asked to report within a year, and we did. We did not seek to be revolutionary. We explored alternative systems, including that in the Republic of Ireland. We were wonderfully entertained on our visit to the Republic and the returning officers took the greatest pride in explaining that whether or not the voters understood the way in which STV worked, the returning officers did and all was well.
Our own suggestion for modest change was that as well as retaining the constituency system we should have an alternative vote within that system to give wider opportunity of choice to those in the single member constituencies, but with a top up, as we called it, of a modest 20 per cent proportional representation. We did not seek to go the full German route of proportional representation. We were concerned to adopt an evolutionary approach that might have some chance of acceptance. We considered that would mean greater fairness to the voters in the distribution of seats between parties and that everyone would feel that their vote would count for at least a little. The cogency of the report and the wonderfully readable style are a lasting tribute to the work of Lord Jenkins. But even—
Earl Russell: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord for all he is saying. May I just put on the record that I breathe no word of criticism of the Jenkins report?
Lord Alexander of Weedon: My Lords, I am very conscious of that because the noble Earl and I are very much on the same side in this debate. We have slightly different views on the preferable means of improving the system but whether or not it brands me as an inadequate Conservative, I am fully supportive of changes to the electoral system.
However, even our modest proposal found no favour with the Government. Did we have a formal response? No. Did we have the whiff of a referendum? No. Was our report cynically tossed into the long grass where it continues to languish? Yes. The Government were by then already addicted to power. They had won such a victory that they no longer needed to woo the Liberal Democrats and unfortunately they became oblivious to the key issue of fairness to the voters. Here I must part company with my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth. He attaches immense importance to the old argument that the great benefit of our system is that it enables us to "throw the rascals out". That in my view is too negative and too modest a view of what is needed in fairness to the electorate. Fairness to voters is what it is all about; it is not about fairness to government or political parties or keeping an established system in place but about giving voters the opportunity to be properly represented.

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In a sense I think that my noble friend's argument would have been convincingly advanced by Napoleon III in the France of the Third Empire in his support of a referendal democracy, but it ignores the fact that there arc acute anomalies which will, I think, be recognised at some future time when glaring practical inequities surface and arouse sudden concern. Perhaps I may briefly list some of them. In four out of the past five elections, governments of two political complexions—I am not making a party political point—had an overall majority of more than 100 with rather more that 40 per cent of the voles. At the last election, Labour had 44 per cent of the vote and they have an overall majority of 180. That disproportionate approach, whichever party it temporarily favours, is unhealthy, unrepresentative and also lessens the valuable need for governments to try to reach out for consensus in society.
The second issue that I shall raise was anticipated in the thoughtful speech of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves; that is. the distribution of votes. There is a mix of large and small constituencies. That means that an inappropriate advantage is conferred on the Labour Party. In the doctrine of electoral reformers, it is called systemic bias. That could be of immense democratic importance if, for example, at a coming election, Labour and Conservatives were to dead-heat at 38 per cent. Is it really acceptable in our society that Labour should still have a majority of 75 seats? Will that be comfortably accepted should that dead heat arise? If not, should we address it now?
In spite of that, there is little interest in my own party in any type of electoral reform or in any of the anomalies about which I speak. I would simply say as gently as I can to my noble friend on the Front Bench that I find that disappointing, although I am grateful for the way in which my differing views are, as they are on other issues, tolerated in the broad-church party that is the Conservative Party in this House.
My next point relates to Scotland. In Scotland, as we know, MPs in the UK Parliament have no vote on the wide range of devolved affairs, yet they vote on purely English issues. The time may come when there are more English MPs against a government proposal than in favour and the Government are saved on English issues only by the votes of those Scottish Members. Will that be accepted for very long? The West Lothian question, as it has historically been known, is compounded by the size of the seats in Scotland. They are small. The Government were to take action to reduce the number of Scottish Members, but, alas, that has been postponed. That inequity continues.
I move on to a point where I come very much together with the noble Earl, Lord Russell; that is, the value of a vote to people. In many constituencies—perhaps 400—there is never a change of party control or Member. If one lives in that constituency all one's life and happens to support a party other than that which wins that constituency, one's vote never counts at all. I cannot help thinking that that may be one of the reasons why the voting in general elections in this country has dropped to 61 per cent. I applaud what the Electoral Commission is doing under Sam Younger,
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its chairman, to try to make it easier for people to vote, but we have to look at the fundamentals as well. It is incontrovertible that proportional representation, or even a measure of it, would give some purpose to every vote. So although, because of my Irish experience, I disagree with the noble Earl, Lord Russell, on the STV, I agree with him strongly on the principle of fairer representation. It is right that all new systems are proportional, whether for Europe, Scotland or Wales, or in the London local elections. We are maintaining a dinosaur of a system that is so inequitable to the voters and excludes so many from a meaningful part in the democratic process.
I wish only that the Government would look honestly at the issue, and do so instead of seeking to tinker further with this House, where they have not come forward with a single argument to suggest that our work is not being done, on the whole, reasonably well. The time must come, and it should not be left to when a government feel that the only way to retain office would be to offer another party a douceur of a change to proportional representation. Fairness should begin now.
6.36 p.m.
Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Earl, Lord Russell, for raising what has been a quite fascinating debate. There have not been many speakers, but those who have taken part have provided me with a great deal of food for thought. I also endorse the tribute made to the noble Earl by my noble friend Lord Alexander of Weedon about his contribution to the House, which we all appreciate and have welcomed. In the time I have been in the House, I have certainly always enjoyed his speeches and the erudition with which he speaks.
I am conscious that there have been important speeches tonight, and I am delighted that I have had behind me the noble Lords, Lord Norton of Louth and Lord Alexander. I am not so delighted that neither of them supported the view that I am likely to take, but there is the broad church of the Conservative Party, as the noble Lord, Lord Alexander, said. We also had a very interesting exposition by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, on the virtue of STV. I disagreed with most of it, but he certainly taught me a thing or two on the way. I agree with him—I hope that my agreeing with it will make it a certain fact—that the reduction in voting at the moment is not necessarily a long-term phenomenon. Of course, it has generated this debate.
The first message that I got about the debate was that it was on the single transferable vote—full stop—so I thought that my reply could be really succinct. I wanted to say, "We are against it", and sit down. However, when I looked at the full title, I realised that there was more to the debate than that, and that I would have to say a little more than that. However, my initial thoughts on a response were not too far off our position on any form of alternative voting systems. They all have one overarching problem, which is that they separate candidates and the elected from

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constituencies. In my view, none can guarantee the strength of government that we constitutionally currently have.
Perhaps that is rather odd. Given our current position in opposition, it might be thought that we would want to review the options for a quick return to power, but none of the alternative routes would provide the stability that we have and value in our current democracy or, as my noble friend Lord Norton said, that provides the accountability that we currently possess. We have a well tried system in this country—at least, we still have it for general and local elections, although the water has been muddied with some of the more recent interlopers into the democratic system, such as mayoral elections and devolved government. But we have a system that has brought stable government to this country for years and where people are selected by individual parties to put themselves forward to a particular electorate. Those people who are voted in represent that electorate.
I am slightly anxious about the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Alexander, which has been made elsewhere, that a vote is wasted in a constituency where a party does not win. A vote can never be wasted from that point of view, because if enough votes are cast a party will win. It has been shown on innumerable occasions, particularly in some noteworthy by-elections, that votes and voters are capable of overturning the status quo.
The advantage of the current system is that the representative has to concentrate on maintaining the support of his electorate, work for it and assist with its problems. In general, he has to be identified with that constituency and have a unique position within it. No other system has that direct connection between the two—not even the single transferable vote, which would result in a number of members representing much enlarged constituencies. The nearest is that espoused by the noble Lord, Lord Alexander, the additional vote system, which maintains the one member one constituency connection but brings with it the distribution of votes on an elimination basis to reach the result. So voters do not and cannot have a transparent view of what their vote has achieved.
We have heard today the repeated concerns about the percentage of people who turn out to vote and falling numbers in all elections. The Bill that we will discuss on Thursday, the European and Local Elections Pilot Bill, is germane to the discussion about whether there are administrative and practical methods of encouraging those who want to vote to do so. But what we all have to admit is that there is a large percentage of the electorate who are disengaged from the electoral system—whatever system and for whatever reason. They will not vote whatever changes are made. Some of the reasons are obvious and my noble friend Lord Norton put them more elegantly than I: the perception that Parliament has less and less control over its own affairs as a result of the ascendance of the European Union; that laws are passed down and implemented without parliamentary intervention; that Members of Parliament consequently have less and less influence over policy—some people
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suggest that MPs are becoming self-seeking; that local government has lessening powers to look after itself; and that there are too many elections and people do not know what they are for. There is a feeling that the Government do nothing to "help me".
We have all heard those arguments, which, while we may not agree with all or any of them, are familiar to all politicians, even if we cannot at present see a way to improve the situation. The question today is whether a different voting mechanism would improve matters, or, perhaps, improve the lot of smaller parties and people with individual views, who receive fewer seats than they feel they are entitled to by the number of votes cast nationally on their behalf. The Liberal view. which has not necessarily been put by the noble Earl, Lord Russell, but may have been by definition, is along those lines.
The arguments put forward for STV—that it breaks the party hold on government; that it enables people with wide views to be elected; and that voters have a choice between candidates and do not need to support a candidate of their own party, but can swap and choose—is counterbalanced by the complexity of the counting system, the requirement for large electorates—up to about 150,000—with multi-member constituencies, and the potential for an inconclusive or finely balanced parliament unable to deliver on a manifesto commitment. Governments who put to the electorate their proposals for the policies that they wish to implement, so long as they do not "cheat" on that, at least enable a clear position to be held by electors on whether they have fulfilled their promises or have affected the country well or badly.
I am aware that the single transferable vote system is supported by the Electoral Reform Society, on whose behalf the noble Earl, Lord Russell, spoke. But it is interesting that it was not the system put forward to the Labour Government by the Jenkins commission in 1997, when this was a "hot" topical issue. I listened carefully to what my noble friend Lord Alexander. who was a distinguished member of that commission, said about the not very great difference between the single transferable vote and the additional member vote systems.
Thus, there is little agreement, even among those who have taken an academic interest in the subject. about any realistic alternative to the one voting system that we have at the moment. Therefore, perhaps we should simply leave the matter alone because "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". That is where we would stand in the absence of more compelling reasons than have been put tonight, previously or, most likely, in the future.
6.46 p.m.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I have enjoyed this debate more than I have enjoyed many in your Lordships' House. In a sense, it has been, much as the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, said, a debate small in number but with a very distinguished cast list. I feel that I genuinely learnt something throughout the discussions on the issue debated this evening. I

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congratulate the noble Earl, Lord Russell, on introducing the debate in the way that he did, with many wise words.
Another feature of the debate has been its breadth. Two very different and equally distinguished views were aired from the Conservative Back Benches. One came from the noble Lord, Lord Alexander of Weedon, who, following his important and distinguished work on the Jenkins commission, offered us a view of that commission's contribution to the discussion about proportional representation systems. The other was a robust and hard-nosed view of the threat that PR in some variant form, perhaps of STV, might pose to the nature of United Kingdom parliamentary democracy.
I considered another interesting feature of the debate to be the use of the term "accountability", and different views were expressed on that. One came from the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, who spoke about the importance of accountability within the parliamentary system. The other view, expressed lucidly, came from the Liberal Democrat Benches and referred to the importance of accountability to those whom, after all, we are here to serve—the electors or voters.
I am aware of the considerable interest that exists in electoral issues. I am delighted that we focused a good deal of attention on the issue of the single transferable vote system not only as a model for improving the proportional nature of our electoral system but also as a means of encouraging interest in democratic and electoral politics.
It is interesting that, in a sense, the best example of STV—certainly the only example within the United Kingdom's system of government—is within Northern Ireland. It is ironic that it was the Conservatives who, when in government during 1970 to 1974, first introduced STV into our political processes when they implemented it for local government in Northern Ireland. STV was introduced in Northern Ireland as a means of ensuring that, in a divided society, the candidates elected accurately reflected the opinions of the voters so that the strength of each party in the Assembly, or council, would be proportional to support among the electorate.
While it is generally recognised that an STV system can produce what one might describe as a "scrupulously proportional" result, and certainly notwithstanding what the noble Earl has said, there is little evidence to suggest that the introduction of such a system is likely to increase the level of public participation in politics or necessarily to enhance voter turnout. We have had some debate on that issue. It is certainly the case that within the Dail elections there has been a decline in turnout, even though there is an STV system in place.
We have in this country a first-past-the-post system for general elections. but turnout has only fallen significantly perhaps in the last two general elections, and in particular in the last general election. For that reason, I do not think that turnout can be blamed on the lack of an STV system. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, made the point that it is not necessarily the case that this is a long-term and
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continuing trend. We have too little evidence to suggest that. There is countervailing evidence to suggest that interest in politics is very much alive and well and some considerable evidence to suggest that interest in local government is beginning to revive, regardless of whether there is an STV system in place.
It is certainly notable that turnout for European parliamentary elections has remained good in Ireland in comparison with other member states. However, it is worth counterbalancing that by saying that traditionally voting has been popular there even before the introduction of STV.
Some comment was made during the course of the debate about the role of political parties and politics itself. I would argue that the parties themselves have a large responsibility for reinvigorating the political system and encouraging voter participation. The independent Electoral Commission has indicated in its book on Election 2001 that public participation in politics depends to a great extent on,
"the quality and persuasiveness of the policies put forward by the political parties and their ability to motivate voters".
In An Agenda for the Future, the commission warns:
"Responsibility for re-engaging the electorate with the democratic process must rest in large part with the political parties".
So it is our responsibility. I do not think that it is one that we can shirk lightly.
I turn to the Government's record on proportional representation. I think that I can argue that our record is fairly good. We have shown a willingness to address the issues where appropriate and to take action when it is necessary, although the noble Earl, Lord Russell, may be disappointed that STV has not specifically figured in our efforts.
In the Government's first term, in line with our 1997 manifesto, we set up an independent commission to look at proportional representation for Westminster, a matter that was commented on many times by the distinguished and late Lord Jenkins of Hillhead. It produced a very interesting and illuminating report, which recommended, as the noble Lord, Lord Alexander of Weedon, said, an alternative vote plus top up system—AV+ rather than STV.
We also introduced proportional representation for the European parliamentary elections in 1999, for the Scottish parliamentary elections and for the Welsh Assembly elections also in 1999—
Lord Alexander of Weedon: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. Since he trails his coat about the excellence of the Government's record on proportional representation, does he agree that the 1997 manifesto promised a referendum on the outcome of what became the Jenkins commission? If so, can he say why such a referendum has never been held?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I shall deal with that point because I think it is important. I finish

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the point about where we have introduced forms of PR simply by adding that it was introduced for elections to the GLA in 2000.
Perhaps I may cover the noble Lord's point. It remains the position that if, in the light of political developments and the review which we promised of the electoral system in our 2001 manifesto, there were recommendations to change the electoral system, we would obviously abide by the commitment we made in our 1997 manifesto that there would be a referendum on that issue.
Lord Maclennan of Rogart: My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for giving way. At this stage, can he say anything more about the review to which he referred and the possibility of recommendations being made? By whom would the recommendations be made? Do the Government envisage a further commission sitting on the issue, in supplement to the Jenkins commission? Does he envisage this being a review in which other political parties participate? Does he envisage that it would be an internal review only, conducted by the Government, or one conducted by an individual? What is the nature of the review? When is it to take place? What will its status be? Will he acknowledge that it would be wholly unsatisfactory, in view of the great work that was done by the Jenkins commission, to have something of less standing producing the definitive position on this issue?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his intervention. It is worth revisiting what we said in our most recent manifesto, in 2001. It referred to the major innovations which I have mentioned; innovations that we have already introduced to the electoral systems for the devolved administrations, the European Parliament and the London Assembly. It confirmed that we would review the experience of the new systems and the Jenkins report to assess whether changes might be made to the electoral system for the House of Commons.
No decisions have yet been made on the structure and timing of any review and a number of options are possible. We are considering when and how best to initiate any review so that it can be comprehensive and can look at practical experience gained. We have already had some very useful experience in the real life working of various PR systems in various elections. Further experience will be gained in this year's European parliamentary and Greater London Authority elections. In both cases, this will be only the second time that elections to those bodies will have been run under their respective proportional, though not STV, systems.
Lessons learnt from experience on the ground are most valuable, which is why the detailed reports produced after elections by the independent Electoral
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Commission are so useful. Noble Lords may also be aware that another body, the Independent Commission on Proportional Representation, a team of electoral experts, has been carrying out a study of how PR has actually worked thus far in the UK.
The ICPR was set up by the constitution unit of University College London. It is jointly chaired by David Butler and Peter Riddell, the political correspondent of the Times, and its vice-chair is Professor Robert Hazell of UCL's constitution unit. The ICPR membership includes a number of well known MPs and MEPs from all parties, together with distinguished academics and journalists. Its stated aim is to conduct research to ensure that the Government's review of the electoral system for general elections, to which I have referred, is based upon the best available evidence. The ICPR produced and published an interim report on the experience of PR in April last year and it will produce its final report in March 2004.
Any review that the Government might initiate will certainly wish to draw on the findings of the Jenkins report, the reports of the independent Electoral Commission on particular elections and our own views of the experiences of the devolved legislatures and also the findings of the ICPR report. We have listened very much to what has been said about methods of proportional representation. We have taken careful note of the arguments for particular systems—in particular, STV and the different permutations of PR generally. There are arguments for and against each possible voting system.
This debate has been most valuable because it has attempted—perhaps sketchily—to make the link between voting systems and public participation in politics. That is a rich and interesting vein, although perhaps we should consider more generally ways to engage the electorate further to foster confidence and strength in our parliamentary system.
There can be no doubt that the first-past-the-post system is simple and easy to understand, while STV can seem convoluted and complex. On the other hand, first past the post may tend to discourage those supporting minority parties from voting, while a PR system can or could ensure that all votes carry weight— although some systems of PR give greater weight and create greater equality than others.
In general, the Government welcome wide consideration of those issues. I put on record our preparedness to learn from the results of research and experience. Indeed, no one can seriously question our appetite for considering and undertaking wide-ranging constitutional reform when necessary. Debate such as this about different PR systems and the participation of the public generally in politics play an important part in that continued and continuing debate.
House adjourned at one minute past seven o'clock.

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  Iran: Earthquake in Bam
  The Lord President of the Council (Baroness Amos)
  On 26 December 2003, at 1.57 a.m. Greenwich Mean Time (5.27 a.m. local time) a powerful earthquake, of magnitude 6.7 on the Richter scale, struck Kerman Province in south-eastern Iran. The epicentre was near to the city of Barn. The earthquake hit the city while people were sleeping and the resultant human tragedy has been immense. The Government of Iran now estimate that between 30,000 and 32,000 people have lost their lives. Some 16,000 suffered injuries and 70,000 have been left homeless.

  The Iranian Government have long experience of dealing with earthquakes and other natural disasters, but the sheer scale of this disaster meant that they welcomed international assistance. The situation was compounded by the fact that many of the city officials in Bam were themselves killed during the earthquake.

  The first priority was search and rescue support for those still trapped in the rubble, and the provision of medical care for the injured. With Bam's only surviving hospital completely overwhelmed, the injured were flown to Kerman, 125 miles away, where they were stabilised before being flown on to Tehran and Isfahan. Providing shelter for those facing the freezing desert night was also critical. Water and electricity supplies took a while to be restored, so some local people were relying on open fires, in low winter temperatures. The Iranian authorities mobilised 20,000 volunteers for the relief effort and the Iranian Red Crescent treated approximately 30,000 casualties in the first four days, of which 10,000 were evacuated to receive tertiary care in seven other centres in Iran. The United Nations reports that the food and water supply is now adequate at this stage and that health needs are being addressed.

  The United Kingdom played its part in responding quickly to the tragedy. In London, DfID opened its emergency crisis co-ordination room on the morning the earthquake happened, from where staff helped to co-ordinate efforts on the ground, liaise with other international relief organisations and worked with the Iranian Government and the British Embassy in Tehran to ensure that humanitarian assistance was delivered as quickly as possible. The Foreign Secretary spoke to the Iranian Foreign Minister, Kamal Kharrazi, on the afternoon of 26 December, to express his deep condolences at the loss of so many Iranian people in the earthquake and to offer the Iranian Government the services of specialised search and rescue teams to help in the immediate aftermath of the earthquake.
  WS 2
  On 27 December, the day after the earthquake, 68 search and rescue specialists from the UK landed in Kerman on a DfID-organised charter flight from Stansted. The team, comprising UK fire service teams, specialists from British non-governmental organisations including the International Rescue Corps, Canis, Rapid and Bird, and four staff from DfID, took with them sniffer dogs and thermal-imaging equipment. They were among the first international teams to reach Bam. The search and rescue phase has now come to a close and the UK teams have returned home. The United Nations reports that the collective efforts of the Iranian and international search and rescue teams saved approximately 1,000 lives.

  In addition to the immediate search and rescue effort, DfID immediately committed £150.000 towards the International Federation of the Red Cross/Red Crescent appeal for shelter, heating and water purification equipment and on 29 December organised an airlift of 450 winter tents and other shelter materials, from DflD's warehouse, for distribution by the Iranian Red Crescent. We also leased two Antonov 12 cargo aircraft and put them at the disposal of the Government of Iran for the first few days to assist in maintaining the flow of relief items from congested airports to the areas where they are most needed. Also, following an urgent appeal from the World Health Organisation, DfID allocated £59,000 for the immediate purchase of 20,000 doses of tetanus vaccine, to be donated to the Ministry of Health and the Iranian Red Crescent. To date, in total, we have contributed some £900,000, including the UK share (approximately £280,000) of the European Community commitment towards the international relief effort. DfID is maintaining a presence in the country to look at potential further help in the light of assessments currently under way.

  The Government of Iran have asked the United Nations to develop and launch a Flash Appeal. It will address the relief, recovery and early rehabilitation needs of those affected by the disaster and cover a period of three months. The Flash Appeal is expected to be launched, in Tehran, on 8 January 2004.

  I want to pay tribute to the professionalism and dedication of the teams from Britain and Iran, and from other nations, that immediately responded to the call for help. The preparedness of the British teams meant that the UK was able to react as soon as news of the earthquake began to reach us. I am also grateful for the excellent assistance provided by the British Embassy in Tehran in facilitating and supporting the teams during this period. Since the start of the crisis DfID has made available its situation reports on the DfID website. A copy of the latest report will also be placed in the Library of the House.

  Helping the people of Bam has become a genuinely global effort, with assistance pouring in from all around the world: 1,600 international search and rescue, health and relief personnel drawn from 44 countries operated in the disaster area. Since the earthquake, the UN in Bam and Kerman has registered 1,400 flights carrying relief teams and

  WS 3
  emergency supplies. At moments of great human need like this, the international community must do all that it can to help. It is notable that over 50 countries are doing so, including significant commitments from the Gulf Co-operation Council for reconstruction.

  Finally, I am sure that the House will wish to express its heartfelt condolences to the people of Barn and of Iran on the terrible tragedy that they have suffered. Our thoughts are with them.

  Equitable Life: Penrose Inquiry
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Lord McIntosh of Haringey)
  Lord Penrose delivered the report of his inquiry into Equitable Life on 23 December. The Treasury and its legal advisers and a limited number of people at the FSA are now reviewing the contents of the report. Subject to these discussions, it is the Treasury's intention to publish the report in full as soon as possible. Further details will be announced in due course.