Sitting of 2 May 2002

Preamble
The House met at half-past Eleven o'clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS

  LONDON DEVELOPMENT AGENCY BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  To be read a Second time on Thursday 9 May.

Oral Answers to Questions
  TRADE AND INDUSTRY
  The Secretary of State was asked—
  TRADE AND INDUSTRY

    Aerospace Industry
    Mr. David Chaytor: What discussions she has had with representatives of the aerospace industry in respect of retraining of employees facing redundancy. [51995]
    The Minister for Employment Relations, Industry and the Regions (Alan Johnson): There are meetings from time to time with representatives of the aerospace industry to discuss the state of the industry and the role of Government. These discussions have, on occasion, touched on the retraining of employees facing redundancy, although this has not been the main subject of any of the meetings.
    Mr. Chaytor: I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. May I draw his attention to the problems faced by the employees of British Aerospace in Manchester and elsewhere, and by those of the smaller companies based at Manchester airport, many of whom are my constituents? Will he pay particular attention to the need for liaison between the three Departments with an interest in this matter—his own, the Department for Education and Skills and the Department for Work and Pensions—to ensure that the skills of aerospace workers are not lost to the economy of the north-west during this period of downturn?
    Alan Johnson: My hon. Friend raises an important point. There have been severe job losses, particularly in the north-west. We work very closely with the DWP and the DFES, and we have provided funds through the new Jobcentre Plus rapid response fund to assist in those areas, as has the North West Development Agency. Our objective in such circumstances is always to assist those who have been made redundant to remain in high-skilled,
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    highly paid employment and to keep their skills in the region so that when the upturn comes—as we are sure it will—they will be available to a very important sector of our manufacturing industry.

    Beer (Full Pints)
    Mr. Nicholas Winterton: What steps she is taking to ensure that consumers receive a full pint in public houses. [51997]
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Nigel Griffiths): One in five pints currently contain less than 95 per cent. of capacity. That is clearly unacceptable. On 18 March, we issued a consultation document to tackle this. We are committed to giving short shrift to short measures, and our proposals should guarantee beer and cider drinkers 60 million extra pints a year.
    Mr. Winterton: I am most grateful to the Minister for that positive, if not frothy, response. I would like to declare an interest from the past. I was, for 10 years, non-executive chairman of CAMRA Real Ale Investments, which then became Midsummer Inns before it was bought out and we were all made redundant by the new company. Is the Minister sure that what the Government are doing will ensure that beer drinkers receive a full liquid pint without having to ask for a top-up? The Campaign for Real Ale feels very strongly about this, as do those who support traditional pubs and brewers. I make no criticism of the smaller brewer, but it is, unfortunately, not untypical that too many people have to ask for a top-up in the beer outlets run by the bigger companies. Will the Government look at this again, perhaps a little more seriously?
    Nigel Griffiths: CAMRA's loss is Parliament's gain. We have listened to representations from all the interested parties in this matter, including the hon. Gentleman's constituents. I spoke this morning to Hugh Thompson of Storm Brewing in Macclesfield, who welcomed the proposals in the consultation document. He is also full of praise for the 14p a pint reduction announced in the Budget, which will help nine out of 10 brewers—350 in total. Let me add to the hon. Gentleman's comments by saying that anyone who seeks to short-change Britain's drinkers will be left with a bitter taste in their mouth, because, with fines under our proposals of up to £1,000 per short measure and, in the case of repeat offenders, the loss of their licence and their livelihood, I think that we shall see effective action taken for the first time to tackle the short-measure culture.
    Mr. Martin O'Neill: Does my hon. Friend agree that there are dangers in half-baked consumerism? If the glasses are to be bigger, we shall have to pay for those bigger glasses, and if the amount of liquid in them is to be greater, the brewers and the publicans will find ways of charging us for it. It will be of little consolation to beer drinkers if we end up drinking slightly more beer out of bigger glasses at far greater expense. Those are the dangers of half-baked consumerism, and many of us who

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    like a pint of beer are very wary of them because we know that consumerism has rarely been recognised by brewers and publicans in the past.
    Nigel Griffiths: My hon. Friend is perfectly correct. That is why there is nothing half-baked about these proposals. They are for consumers and drinkers in Britain, and they will ensure that there are stiffer penalties than ever and that the equivalent of about 60 million extra pints a year will go to the drinkers and not back to the breweries.
    Richard Younger-Ross: I hope that that promise will be delivered. Will the Minister enlighten us about when he will deliver the promised licensing law reform rather than just the half-baked attempt on licensing for new year's day?
    Nigel Griffiths: That is out for consultation and clearly there are diverse interests in the House and in the country on licensing laws. I hope that it is possible to reach a compromise that is agreeable to local communities up and down the country, which differ as to how much those laws should be expanded to allow round-the-clock drinking. I can tell the hon. Gentleman that, in cities such as Edinburgh, it is acceptable but in other parts of the country it is not. There is no one-size-fits-all solution.

    Energy Review Report
    Miss Anne McIntosh: What the Government's response is to the performance and innovation unit energy review report; and if she will make a statement. [51998]
    The Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Ms Patricia Hewitt): The Government will consult shortly on the issues raised in the report and will set out their detailed response in an energy White Paper around the end of the year.
    Miss McIntosh: The Secretary of State will recall that her Department has authorised the building of a long string of power lines, which has led to little Eiffel towers appearing across the Vale of York recently. Is she aware that the existing electricity-carrying pylons are operating at only 20 per cent. capacity, which means that the existing line is 80 per cent. surplus to requirements? Following the PIU energy review report, will she introduce legislation to ensure that the electricity generated is as close as possible to demand so that we no longer need those hideous power lines?
    Ms Hewitt: I am aware of the concern in the hon. Lady's constituency and elsewhere in Yorkshire about the north Yorkshire power line. Indeed, the energy Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Cunninghame, North (Mr. Wilson), recently met her and some of her constituents to discuss the matter. We shall consider the broader point that she raises as part of the wider review, but the issues relating to the new north Yorkshire power line, including the possibility of running the cable
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    underground, were examined enormously carefully during six and a half years of consideration and two public inquiries. Unfortunately, the costs proved insuperable.
    Miss Anne Begg: I welcome the fact that the Government are to publish an energy policy White Paper, which I hope will make it clear that the future of the North sea oil and gas industry remains very important to the supply of the UK's energy needs. Has the Department made an assessment of the fiscal changes proposed in the Budget and their impact on the North sea oil and gas industry?
    Ms Hewitt: I agree with my hon. Friend about the oil and gas industry's importance to the future of our energy supplies, and of course that will be reflected in the White Paper, as it was in the PIU report. She will be aware that the changes to the taxation of North sea oil have been under Treasury consideration for some years. Although the increase in the special rate of taxation is unwelcome to the industry, I hope that it welcomes the inclusion of 100 per cent. capital allowances for investment, which is hugely important, particularly for the fallow fields, and the ending of the extremely unpopular royalty payments regime.
    Mr. Boris Johnson: It is good news that the Government have decided that fusion should be part of this country's long-term energy programme. As the Secretary of State is aware, much fusion research takes place at the Culham Laboratories in my constituency. Given the importance of the fusion programme and the potential that it offers for long-term, limitless greenhouse gas-free energy, will she take steps to protect the Culham programme from the cuts that I understand are envisaged by the European Commission? Is it guaranteed that the fusion programme will continue?
    Ms Hewitt: The hon. Gentleman is obviously used to writing articles rather longer than speeches to the House of Commons, but he raises the hugely important possibility of generating power from fusion. The Minister for Science and Innovation has been pursuing it, and I remind the hon. Gentleman that we have increased funding for basic scientific research in our country by upwards of £1 billion to start to make up for the cuts made under the Conservative Government. Of course, we shall consider sustaining fusion power research as part of the future of our science research programmes.
    Paddy Tipping: In any response to the PIU report, will the Secretary of State ensure that the country does not depend on a single source of energy, such as imported gas? Will she consider the need for an EU replacement state subsidy scheme for coal, and consider in particular the important issue of burning coal in an environmentally friendly way?
    Ms Hewitt: Diversity and security of supply is one of the central objectives in the report, and we shall of course pay close attention to it when preparing our White Paper. Diversity and security involves not simply different energy sources—different fuels—but different parts of the world, including of course the United Kingdom.

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    We are working with our European partners to establish a new framework for state aid to the coal industry. We have already committed about £120 million by way of operating aid. We are also considering what more we can do to support the development and use of clean coal technologies, which are a hugely important part of environmentally sustainable energy production.
    Mr. Robert Key: I was concerned to hear from the Secretary of State that the publication of the promised White Paper had already slipped from October to the end of the year. When the energy Minister, the hon. Member for Cunninghame, North (Mr. Wilson), returns, will she draw his attention to the fact that Greenpeace, Shell, the British Wind Energy Association, British Nuclear Fuels plc, the Coal Authority, the Carbon Trust, Friends of the Earth, the Energy Saving Trust, the Association of European Transmission System Operators, the European fusion development agreement, Slough Heat and Power, TXU—and myself, sir—are all waiting for a full debate in the Chamber on the PIU energy review?
    We know that the White Paper is being drafted, and we know which officials are leading the drafting. If the Government are serious, they must consult the House now rather than waiting until all the decisions have been made.
    Ms Hewitt: I am glad to be able to reassure the hon. Gentleman, and all the organisations that he listed at such length, that before the end of the month we will publish a consultation document specifying the issues on which we invite views following the PIU report, so that full consultation and debate take place before we draft the White Paper.

    Broadband Telecommunications
    Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: What action she is taking to ensure that broadband telecommunications are rolled out more rapidly in rural areas. [51999]
    Kevin Brennan: What steps she is taking to assist the roll-out of broadband infrastructure in Britain. [52007]
    The Minister for E-Commerce and Competitiveness (Mr. Douglas Alexander): We set out our strategy for making the broadband market more extensive and competitive in December. Since then the market has continued to develop. Broadband services are available to over 60 per cent. of the population, and coverage is increasing. There are now more than 500,000 broadband subscribers in the UK. The increased take-up strengthens the case for a further roll-out of services.
    Mr. Clifton-Brown: Is the Minister aware that, according to information that I received recently, in certain parts of the Cotswolds it will take between seven and 10 years for broadband services to become available? Will that not create a technological apartheid? People in businesses dependent on broadband will have to move away from those areas, because they will not be able to receive it.
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    I am aware that BT is enabling 500 exchanges to start operating by the end of May, and I am aware of the pilot schemes in Cornwall and Wales. Does the Minister agree, however, that the country's future growth depends on the rapid roll-out of broadband services in every area? May I also ask him to look into the fact that add-on services in relation to both broadband and IDSN are not covered by the regulator? Given BT's monopoly in this respect, should the position not be examined?
    Mr. Alexander: I am intrigued by the terms of the question. The advice available to me suggests that both ADSL and cable services are available in the hon. Gentleman's constituency. Nevertheless, he has made an important point about how we can ensure that the services are rolled out.
    Only last month, I challenged BT to provide more exchanges. I am delighted to say that there will be a further 100 throughout the United Kingdom, but we face a challenge—that of not just extending coverage, but driving up usage. That is why the price reductions of recent months will be so critical in altering the risk-reward balance in infrastructure decisions affecting rural areas that will be made in months to come.
    Kevin Brennan: Does my hon. Friend recognise that the roll-out of broadband is a big issue in urban as well as in rural areas, particularly in places such as the valleys of south Wales, where cabling is not widely available? What steps will he take to ensure that there is joined-up public sector commissioning of broadband to ensure that we can spread availability, drive down costs and bridge the technology deficit in more deprived communities?
    Mr. Alexander: My hon. Friend makes an important point. One of the first challenges that we faced was to ensure that we got an appropriate return for the public sector investment in this area. The Government spend, at all levels, approximately £1.7 billion a year on information and communications technology. One of the challenges that has been set for the Office of Government Commerce is to use that spend effectively to deal with exactly the questions identified by my hon. Friend.
    John Thurso: The Minister may be aware of the helpful exchange that I had with the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry in the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport on this issue. Does he now accept that, left to the private market, remote rural areas in the highlands such as my constituency will never get broadband? While I welcome the £30 million fund that the Government have set up, should we not do more to encourage it into those areas?
    Mr. Alexander: I welcome the initiatives that have been taken over recent months by British Telecom. A further two initiatives would be of importance in the hon. Gentleman's constituency: first, the actions of the Scottish Executive in taking forward their digital highlands project; secondly, and most significantly for long-term roll-out across rural areas, there is the interesting work that BT is doing with satellite provision of broadband services, which can achieve a footprint, not

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    least in the highlands and islands of Scotland, that can guarantee a service for small and medium-sized enterprises, which is very important.
    Mr. Philip Hammond: The Government's objective is to achieve not only universal affordable access to broadband—I emphasise affordable because the Minister has just mentioned satellite, which is not affordable—but a choice of diverse services to provide that access. With the failure of the broadband fixed wireless access auction, and the Secretary of State's acknowledgment to the Select Committee on Trade and Industry that there probably is not a commercial case for fixed wireless access, does the Minister accept that even if ADSL roll-out is achieved in rural areas, no competitive access arrangements will be available for the foreseeable future in many rural areas?
    Mr. Alexander: No, I do not accept the hon. Gentleman's point. I recently visited Northern Ireland and saw there the development of competition in satellite services. While I accept that satellite is at the moment very expensive for SMEs, in the months and years to come, we will see the price reductions that we are already seeing in ADSL services. However, his point about platforms is important. It makes the case that the Government have been advancing that their appropriate response is to maintain platform neutrality in the area of broadband. We have set broad objectives, but it is for the market to determine, working in an effective relationship with the Government, what the most appropriate technology is for those particular areas.

    Steel (US Tariffs)
    Mr. Win Griffiths: What progress has been made to secure exemptions for UK steel companies from US tariffs. [52000]
    The Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Ms Patricia Hewitt): The Minister for Trade and Investment and I and our embassy in Washington are in regular contact with senior members of the American Administration to support our companies' requests for exclusions from the American import tariffs on steel. I am glad to say that the Administration have now agreed to consider new applications that are received by 20 May. We expect decisions on those exclusion requests to be made by 3 July.
    Mr. Griffiths: I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply and for the way in which the Government have tried to pursue all these issues within a strictly legal framework, unlike the American Government. That is much appreciated at the steelworks at Port Talbot, which is in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon (Dr. Francis), but which I can see from my living room window. Over the past 20 years, there have been huge reductions in jobs at that steelworks to keep it competitive. I urge my right hon. Friend to do whatever else she may have in mind to make certain that production of high-quality, competitive steel can continue in Aberavon.
    Ms Hewitt: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for those remarks. Throughout this whole business, we have
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    stressed to the American Administration that we believe that their action is completely unjustified and unlawful under World Trade Organisation rules. We are making absolutely certain that the action that we take with our European partners is within the WTO rules. I am grateful for his and others' support for that strategy, but the most important thing that we can do to support our steelworkers, apart from fighting the American action, is to maintain economic stability and support our manufacturing industry, which I believe is now on the verge of an upturn. That in turn will produce the demand that workers at Corus in his constituency and elsewhere so desperately need. We will continue to support our steelworkers and to make the case for our highly productive and competitive steel plants against this unjustified American action.
    Tony Baldry: Will the Secretary of State confirm that Commissioner Lamy is meeting his opposite number in Washington today? Does this not confirm the benefit of Britain's membership of the European Union? If each of us were seeking independently to take on the United States, we would not have the benefit of operating as a European Union. Does that not show the good sense of the British people when they said yes to Europe in the 1975 referendum?
    Ms Hewitt: I agree with every word that the hon. Gentleman has said, although I am not sure that his hon. Friends on the Opposition Front Bench or indeed the Leader of the Opposition would agree with him. If he feels like crossing the Floor today, let me say how much we would welcome him.
    Phil Hope: My right hon. Friend will know that in Corby we have a very efficient, highly productive rolling mill producing some of the finest tube in the country. Indeed, it was used to construct the London Eye, one of the major icons of the millennium. In Corby we are proud of our steel and our steelworkers and feel that the action by the United States is unacceptable, unlawful and unjustified. I thank the Government for the work that they are already doing, but if the negotiations on compensation break down, will they consider the option of European Union retaliation against the United States to force it to drop these unacceptable tariffs and allow our manufacturing industry, which is beginning to move into an upturn, to make the very most of the stable economy that we have created for businesses in this country?
    Ms Hewitt: My hon. Friend is right about the competitive excellence of the company in his constituency. The anger that his constituents feel about the American action was reflected among the steelworkers whom I recently met in Yorkshire. At this stage, our first priority is to get exclusions from the US tariffs for particular products and for the companies that have requested them. Only yesterday, I spoke again to Don Evans, the American Commerce Secretary. My hon. Friend and others will welcome the fact that Secretary Evans was able to tell me that, if products on which additional import duty has already been paid since 20 March are now granted an exclusion, the extra duty will he refunded.

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    We are pursuing the exclusions as effectively as we can. Along with our European colleagues, we are pursuing compensation and putting pressure on the American Administration to agree countervailing measures to compensate our economy for the impact of their tariff action and we are keeping open the possibility of retaliatory action. No decision has yet been made on that. I must tell my hon. Friend that we are all alive to the dangers of a tit-for-tat war, but we are acting under the WTO rules to keep that option open by working with the European Commission to ensure that a list of products for possible retaliation is filed under the WTO rules by 17 May.
    Dr. Hywel Francis: My right hon. Friend will be well aware of the work of the all-party parliamentary group on steel in supporting the steel industry in Britain and on the representations that it has made on behalf of steel communities. Can she reassure the House that every effort is being made to make representations to the American Government to make sure that the protectionism and economic nationalism that their action represents will not spread to other industries?
    Ms Hewitt: I can certainly give my hon. Friend that assurance. We are working hard and putting all the pressure that we can on the American Administration to persuade them to minimise the damage that has been caused not only to our steel industry, but to the cause of fair and free world trade by their unjustified and unlawful action. I am very grateful to the members of the all-party parliamentary group on steel for taking action on this issue, especially the recent representations that they made in person to the American embassy in London.

    Enterprise Projects
    Mr. Tom Harris: What action her Department is taking to target enterprise projects at disadvantaged areas and groups. [52003]
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Nigel Griffiths): We are spending £170 million developing businesses in disadvantaged areas and among under-represented groups. The latest round of phoenix funding benefits a further 11 areas, including those in and around Bolton, Bristol, Dorset, Hertfordshire, Isle of Wight, Liverpool, London, Norfolk and Sheffield. It includes the city growth strategies to help inner cities, and the development fund for rural renewal. Similar schemes operate in Scotland.
    Mr. Harris: Is my hon. Friend aware that 9 per cent. of the total land area in Glasgow has been designated an undeveloped brownfield site? Does he agree that Government action to prepare such sites for commercial use would have a significant positive impact on employment not only in Glasgow but in cities throughout the United Kingdom?
    Nigel Griffiths: I wholeheartedly endorse that. On Tuesday, I visited one such site in Deeside, where this sort of development money is now greatly benefiting the local community and local enterprise. It is particularly important that funds such as those under the community
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    development funding initiative in Glasgow go towards developing businesses. I know that such corporate venturing is very important.
    Mr. Ian Davidson: Is the Minister aware that my constituency has the highest unemployment in Scotland? Will he clarify what is being done to ensure that people from my area can get jobs in enterprises that are supported by his Department over a wider travel-to-work area? What has he done in particular to help Pollok and Glasgow recently?
    Nigel Griffiths: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising the issues that concern his constituents. I know that he will want to join me in congratulating the Government on their tremendous efforts in cutting unemployment in his constituency, although I would be the first to acknowledge that more must be done and that there are no grounds for complacency. I shall ensure that he is written to with details of all the help that has been available in his constituency from both my Department and the Scottish Executive equivalent.
    Brian Cotter: Will the Minister clarify the bid scheme that the Government are proposing to develop areas? On the face of it, it seems to be very good, but will it effectively deliver for businesses that do not have a lot of resources? There is concern that the application of extra business rates and taxes will be all right for larger concerns but not for smaller businesses, which could be overcome by bigger firms that want to spend more money and pay more business rates to revitalise an area. Will the bid scheme overcome that problem?
    Nigel Griffiths: Looking at the mass of the company is an important point. It is obviously much easier to give 10 grants to 10 large bids than to do all the work that might be needed to sub-divide them into 100 bids. I know that officials at the DTI are well aware of that and of the need to help SMEs. I applaud the efforts that have already been made in that direction. I shall draw the hon. Gentleman's words to their attention; we take them to heart.

    Coal Industry
    Mr. John Grogan: If she will make a statement on the future of the coal industry. [52004]
    The Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Ms Patricia Hewitt): Coal continues to play an important part in the UK's energy mix. Since December 2000, the Government have spent £141 million on the coal operating aid scheme to help the UK coal industry deal with depressed world prices and compete successfully with imports in meeting demand.
    Mr. Grogan: On the day that my right hon. Friend meets the chief executive of UK Coal and two weeks before coalfield Members meet the Prime Minister to discuss the future of the coal industry, will she assure me that the British Government will support in discussions in the European Union the concept of investment aid for the

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    coal industry, which would for the first time allow aid to be used to access reserves or new faces, rather than largely being restricted to funding losses?
    Ms Hewitt: As my hon. Friend implied, it is not possible at the moment, either under the coal subsidy scheme or under regional selective assistance, for the Government to support investment in the coal industry. We are currently in negotiations in Brussels, as part of the discussion about the new coal state aid framework, to see whether it will be possible to provide investment aid for those mines for which it would be appropriate. We do not know what the outcome of those discussions will be, but we are pressing that case.
    Mr. Elfyn Llwyd: As the right hon. Lady knows, the European Coal and Steel Community treaty is due to expire in July. She also knows that Spain, France and Germany have said that they will continue with the aid, pending the new treaty in January. I urge on her the need to extend the aid until the new treaty is in place. The colliery manager at Bettws Ammanford rang my hon. Friend the Member for East Carmarthen and Dinefwr (Adam Price) to say that he had regrettably been forced to open redundancy negotiations with his work force, so I urge the Secretary of State to rethink the issue and make an early announcement. The energy Minister visited Longannet recently, but he could do nothing to save that pit. Will she please intervene and save Bettws Ammanford while it is possible to do so?
    Ms Hewitt: Of course all of us bitterly regretted what happened at Longannet. We are just thankful that nobody was in the pit at the time and that we avoided the casualties that would otherwise have occurred. I will draw the situation at Bettws to the attention of my hon. Friend the energy Minister and I am sure that he will wish to talk to managers and workers there. When the current scheme runs out, we would prefer to see an immediate transition to a new operating framework, but I stress to the hon. Gentleman that conditions that justified the establishment of an operating aid scheme in 2000—in particular, the very depressed world price for coal—do not really apply now. The substantial amounts of aid that have been given to the industry under the existing operating aid scheme were given on the understanding that the various mines would be economically viable by July this year. We are considering the matter carefully, but it will not be easy to solve.
    Mr. Andrew Robathan: The Secretary of State referred to the importance of coal in the energy mix. Can she confirm that her energy policies are destroying other Government policies? In particular, the workings of the new electricity trading arrangements are destroying the possibility of reaching targets for combined heat and power and renewable energy by 2010. Is she aware that the NETA have led to a 60 per cent. reduction in CHP production and to some wind farms being closed down because they are no longer productive?
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The question is out of order. It is beyond the scope of the original question and the Minister will not answer it.

    Urban Post Offices
    Adam Price: If it is her policy to support Consignia's proposed network reinvention programme for urban post offices. [52005]
    The Minister for E-Commerce and Competitiveness (Mr. Douglas Alexander): The Government are committed to maintaining a nationwide network of post offices. Following the announcement in January agreeing in principle to a compensation package for the urban network restructuring programme to be undertaken by Post Office Ltd., I can confirm that support of up to £210 million will be available for the compensation and investment package for urban offices, subject to state aid and parliamentary approval.
    Adam Price: I am grateful to the Minister for his reply, but the Government's policy on the issue is a touch Orwellian. The Conservatives are often roundly—and rightly—condemned for the 3,500 post offices that closed under their Government, but we are told that the 3,000 proposed closures under this Government are an issue of network reinvention and are the operational responsibility of Consignia, even though the Government are the only shareholder. Is not the real underlying agenda the Government's continuing intention to part-privatise, by the back door? As we discovered this morning in Hansard, the Government were involved in the discussions to privatise part of Consignia by selling a share to the privately owned Dutch company, TPG. Our experience in Wales with Dutch mergers is unfortunate—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The Minister will do his best to answer the question.
    Mr. Alexander: I am grateful to you, Mr. Speaker. The hon. Gentleman raised the question of closure. The latest figures available indicate that for the year to the end of March 2002 the total number of closures across the country was 262, compared with 547 in the previous year.
    Mr. Mark Lazarowicz: I welcome the funding that the Government are making available to the reinvention programme, which I know will help the post office service in the future. However, I draw to my hon. Friend's attention the situation regarding the Stockbridge post office in my constituency. That area has been without sub-post office facilities for several months. We now have a commitment from Consignia about reopening a post office, but we do not have a date. Will my hon. Friend get in touch with Consignia and ask it to get a move on so that we can have a definite date for the reopening of a post office in the Stockbridge area of my constituency?
    Mr. Alexander: Such matters are operational matters for Consignia, but in my dim and distant past as a student I used to use that post office, so I shall certainly be happy to make those representations on my hon. Friend's behalf.
    Rev. Martin Smyth: Does the Minister accept that the policies of successive Governments have made it difficult for small post offices to serve, in both urban and rural areas? Will better links be established with

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    the reinvented Consignia to make sure that the people of our country as a whole are served by a Post Office that serves the nation rather than private enterprise?
    Mr. Alexander: I certainly endorse that sentiment. From my own constituency, I know of the vital work undertaken not only in rural but in urban areas by Post Office Counters Ltd. That is why we are determined to get the Post Office's finances on to a sustainable basis, and remain committed to a national network of sub-post offices.
    Dr. Vincent Cable: Will the Minister confirm that there is a link between the Government's decision to approve the closure of a third of urban post offices and their adoption of an extremely pessimistic target of 3 million for the take-up of post office card accounts? That is only half the number of people that the Government's own social exclusion unit has estimated to be without bank accounts. Do not the Government's assumptions inevitably imply a large-scale migration of custom from post offices to the banking system?
    Mr. Alexander: First, I emphasise that the figure of 3 million is an operational assumption, and it is being considered. The Government's determination to move many who are unbanked into the banking system is consistent with our determination to tackle social exclusion in this country. However, we of course want to ensure that post offices are located where they are best able to serve customers, both those who wish to collect benefits and those who have wider retailing needs.
    Mr. Mark Field: I thank the hon. Member for East Carmarthen and Dinefwr (Adam Price) for raising the matter of urban post offices. We hear a lot about the problems with rural post offices. What is the Minister's relationship with Postwatch, the organisation that looks after the interests of post office consumers? What is his approach to urban post offices such as those in my constituency, of which well over a third are likely to be closed in the next 12 months?
    Mr. Alexander: Of course, we maintain a dialogue with Postwatch. The programme will be subject to scrutiny in this House and in Europe. As we move forward with it, it is vital that there is consultation, at a national level with Postwatch, and at the local level of individual sub-post offices. That is exactly the Government's intention.
    Mr. John Whittingdale: Two years ago, the Government said that by keeping the Post Office in the public sector, it could become a "world-class player" providing a service fit "for the 21st century." Today, it is losing £1.5 million a day, it is about to announce thousands of redundancies, and the Government have been forced to admit that they have been engaged in secret talks to the sell the Post Office to the Dutch. Who does the Minister blame for that fiasco, given that just two years ago the Post Office had a golden future? Is it management, the unions, or his own Government?
    Mr. Alexander: The hon. Gentleman makes a serious point about the challenges that we face with the Post Office. However, the point would have more credibility if
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    a single Conservative Member had attended yesterday's Westminster Hall debate on the Post Office, to which my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, the Member for Edinburgh, South (Nigel Griffiths), responded. However, I accept that we face challenges with regard to the Post Office. That is why we have taken decisions to strengthen management that are consistent with a commitment to commercial freedom. It is vital to move the programme forward to achieve the goals that we have set—the delivery of the universal service obligation, and the maintenance of a national network of post offices.

    Manufacturing
    Mr. Ben Chapman: What steps she is taking to help manufacturing industry. [52006]
    The Minister for Employment Relations, Industry and the Regions (Alan Johnson): Fundamental to the success of our manufacturing industry is the establishment of a stable macro-economic framework, which this Government have successfully put in place since 1997. In addition, we have set in hand a range of specific measures that will improve industry's productivity and competitiveness. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State expects to set out the Government's strategy for manufacturing in a publication later this month.
    Mr. Chapman: I welcome and look forward to that publication. However, what are the Government doing now to help manufacturing firms in my constituency? No matter what they do in terms of productivity or efficiency gains, ground-breaking agreements between management and unions, and investment, they still cannot compete because of the barrier of the pound-euro exchange rate.
    Alan Johnson: From visiting the Wirral international business park with my hon. Friend in February, I know of the concern of local manufacturing businesses, particularly about the slowdown in the world economy and the weakness of the euro. We believe that artificial measures to reduce the level of sterling would risk a return to the economic instability that so damaged manufacturing in the past.
    In this morning's newspaper, the chief executive of Siemens, Alan Wood, says:
    "it is clear that the UK can only sustain a successful manufacturing base if we all increase our productivity levels by investing in high-tech manufacturing. We also need to establish good supply chain management, create cutting edge research and make more innovative products."
    We need to concentrate on skills, innovation and research and development so that we can add value to manufacturing products in this country and ensure the success of manufacturing in Wirral and throughout the United Kingdom.
    Mr. John Whittingdale: I begin by congratulating the Minister on what we are told is his new appointment. If the Government are so keen to show their support for manufacturing industry, will he explain why neither he nor any of the other seven Department of Trade and Industry Ministers could find time in their diary to attend MACH 2002, the No.1 exhibition of manufacturing

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    technology which is taking place in Birmingham for the whole of this week? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the equivalent event in Germany was attended by the German Chancellor, Gerhard Schröder? Does not the Government's failure even to turn up speak far more loudly about the priority that they attach to manufacturing than a change in the title at the top of the Minister's notepaper?
    Alan Johnson: The suggestion is nonsense. The Machine Tool Technologies Association is a very important organisation which understands the importance that we attach to manufacturing industry. I understand that the hon. Member for Maldon and East Chelmsford (Mr. Whittingdale) attended the exhibition. In my new role, I will ensure that the MTTA never has to accept second best again.
    Mr. fain Luke: I welcome the many initiatives in the Budget to sustain manufacturing, help stimulate small and medium-sized manufacturing concerns and, importantly, assist in the start-up of new, smaller manufacturing concerns. Will the Minister give an undertaking to work closely with the Scottish Executive, Scottish Enterprise and local companies in Scotland to ensure that the new telephone helpline is widely advertised and that the new starter packs are widely available so that new manufacturing concerns can start up throughout the country?
    Alan Johnson: I will certainly give my hon. Friend the assurance that he seeks. It is important that we work closely with the Scottish Executive and with Scottish Enterprise to ensure that in the early days of what seems to be a better future for manufacturing—after a dreadful time—we all work together. In that way, the opportunities for business support are well understood and well known to companies and manufacturing.

    Regional Development Agencies
    Mr. David Borrow: What actions she is taking to enable regional development agencies to best suit their activities to regional needs. [52009]
    The Minister for Employment Relations, Industry and the Regions (Alan Johnson): From 1 April this year, the regional development agencies are getting their funding from the Government as a single budget. This will give them the flexibility to address the regional needs and opportunities that they have identified as key to developing their regional economies.
    In return, we have agreed a set of targets with the RDAs. These sit within a common framework, but reflect each region's particular needs and priorities.
    Mr. Borrow: My hon. Friend will be aware that the north-west of England is the leading aerospace region in the United Kingdom and, indeed, the world. The North West Development Agency is working with the North West Aerospace Alliance, the universities in the area, BAE Systems, Rolls-Royce and the Airbus consortium to develop an aerospace innovation centre in the north-west. I have spoken to colleagues in the region, and it is clear that there is frustration at the delay in getting this project
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    off the ground. I should be grateful if my hon. Friend would look into the matter and see what support his Department can give to the project in the months ahead.
    Alan Johnson: I am certainly aware of the enormous efforts made by the North West Development Agency to improve aerospace facilities and, indeed, by linking with the universities, to ensure that there is a constant supply of skills for that industry. I was not aware of the point that my hon. Friend makes, and I will undertake to intervene and to find out what is happening.

    MINISTER FOR WOMEN
    The Minister was asked—

    Pre-eclampsia
    Dr. Andrew Murrison: If she will make a statement on the recent report into pre-eclampsia. [52031]
    The Minister for Women (Ms Patricia Hewitt): I understand that the study to which the hon. Gentleman refers suggests an association, but it does not find any direct link between working and pre-eclampsia, and that the lead researcher has commented that it would not be right to draw firm conclusions from this study. The Health and Safety Executive will undertake a detailed assessment of the report and will consider whether there is a need to provide additional guidance for employers, employees and health care providers.
    Dr. Murrison: I thank the Minister for that response. In light of the fact that this is just one report, I wonder what discussions she is having with her colleagues in the Department of Health and the maternity working group to establish the need for further research to clarify the possibility of a link between working and pre-eclampsia. More generally, will she tell us a little about what she is doing to publicise this condition, which is poorly understood among women and health care workers?
    Ms Hewitt: The hon. Gentleman raises an enormously important point. Eclampsia and pre-eclampsia are leading causes of maternal death and, as he says, the causes are not at all well understood. I understand that my colleagues in the Department of Health are already talking to the Health and Safety Executive, as I suggest. I am sure that they are considering the need for further research, although I will draw that point specifically to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health. I would also stress to the hon. Gentleman that the Department of Health is already funding the voluntary group, Action on Pre-eclampsia, and that part of that funding is used to make information directly available to pregnant women. I believe that that information is found to be reassuring and practically very helpful.
    Mrs. Caroline Spelman: Yesterday's report that fewer than half the babies born in England have a completely natural delivery is shocking. The increasing medicalisation of maternity care is causing midwives to vote with their feet and the policy of creating ever-larger units undermines the kind of personal care that can guard

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    against pre-eclampsia. Will the Minister for Women tell the House what will happen to the maternity units that, according to the birth-rate plus survey, cannot find enough midwives?
    Ms Hewitt: The hon. Lady raises a very important point about ensuring that women can get the kind of care that they want in pregnancy and childbirth. For many women—I had a great experience with a midwife-assisted delivery—it is very desirable to have a midwife engaged in care throughout the pregnancy, as well as at the delivery itself. I will certainly draw the hon. Lady's remarks to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health, and I will write to her further on this subject.

    Parents (Employment)
    Mark Tami: What she is doing to encourage the employment of parents. [52032]
    The Minister for Women (Ms Patricia Hewitt): We are doing a great deal to enable parents to balance work and family. I stress the improvements that we are making to maternity pay and leave, the creation of paternity and adoption leave and the new duty for employers seriously to consider requests for flexible working from the parents of young children—all of which come on top of the other measures that we have taken, particularly the increased investment in child care and the introduction of the highly successful working families tax credit and the child care tax credit.
    Mark Tami: Does the Minister for Women agree that what parents want is the ability to work flexibly? Will she do all that she can to encourage employers down that road? Will she encourage them even more during the World cup so that they can enjoy the benefits of the goal-scoring talents of my constituent, Michael Owen?
    Ms Hewitt: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. Many fathers, mothers and others will want to make sure that they watch the games, and will be cheering on his constituent. I welcome the fact that many employers have already indicated that they will be flexible on this matter, and will ensure that employees can watch the key matches rather than perhaps taking unauthorised sick leave. We know from awards such as the 100 Best Companies to Work For—which is sponsored by my Department—that employers who offer flexible working, particularly to parents, are not only more popular with their employees but are more profitable than other companies, too.
    Miss Anne McIntosh: Does the right hon. Lady agree that the single most damaging thing that this Government have done to prevent the increase in part-time women—particularly mothers of young families—is to announce the increase in national insurance contributions?
    Ms Hewitt: I am not sure whether the hon. Lady wants to increase part-time women or part-time working. Let me say that the increase in the number of women in employment, particularly women with young children, has been faster in the last few years than in previous decades. I do not agree that the very modest increase in national
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    insurance contributions that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor announced in the Budget will damage that. I have no doubt that, by next year, when the increase in national insurance contributions comes into effect, and when we expect the economy to grow at well over 3 per cent. a year, the issue for job creation and for businesses will not be the national insurance contributions but whether they can get enough good skilled workers. Of course, we will continue to support the extension of part-time working so that women and men can have a greater choice of working hours, which we know that they want.

    Second World War
    Mr. John Grogan: What steps are being taken to recognise the contribution made by women to the British war effort in the second world war. [52034]
    The Minister for Women (Ms Patricia Hewitt): The Government recognise and value the enormous contribution made by the women of this country during the second world war. I understand that the noble Baroness Boothroyd is patron of a committee that is looking to erect a memorial to the women of world war two. I wish the committee every success with this excellent proposal.
    Mr. Grogan: Does my right hon. Friend agree that, in golden jubilee year, it would be particularly appropriate to bring the campaign for a memorial to the women of world war two—another of whose patrons, incidentally, is the Princess Royal—to a successful conclusion? Will she agree to keep a close watching brief on the efforts of the trustees to secure a central site in the heart of our capital for this memorial? The latest possible site is the Victoria embankment, close to the Ministry of Defence.
    Ms Hewitt: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. I have already wished that committee and its patrons every success, and I shall continue to take a close personal interest in it. It occurs to me that, coming so soon after the death of the Queen Mother—who first found her place in the affections of our country during the second world war, particularly in the east end—it would be highly appropriate to commemorate her, along with other women who made such a heroic contribution to the war effort in the first and second world wars, in a single statue. It also occurs to me that an appropriate and central place for that would be the vacant plinth in Trafalgar square.
    Sue Doughty: I, too, would like to add my support for a memorial to the effort made by women during the second world war in all sorts of fields. In particular, I hope that we will recognise the contribution made by young women who stayed at home to care for families when everybody else went away, and who may have lost the chance of marriage and bringing up their own family when people came home with injuries, which meant that they slipped from being a teenager to a carer, perhaps for many years. They lost the opportunity to marry and to earn, and they are sometimes now among the poorest old people. We should remember the service provided by that group of women.
    Ms Hewitt: The hon. Lady makes a very important point, and I entirely agree with her about the importance

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    of recognising and valuing the contribution that was made by those forgotten women of the war as well as that of the women who served in the Land Army, in the services and in many other ways, including in the workplace as well as in the home.

    Female Entrepreneurs
    Mr. Henry Bellingham: When she next expects to meet representatives of small firms organisations to discuss female entrepreneurs. [52035]
    The Minister for Women (Ms Patricia Hewitt): My hon Friend the Minister with responsibility for small business meets regularly the small business representative organisations to discuss how we can improve the environment for UK small business, including women entrepreneurs. Indeed, he most recently raised this issue at the end of last month at a meeting of entrepreneurs in Stoke-on-Trent and, just last week, I helped to launch the new north-west women's business network, which is doing excellent work to support women already in business or wanting to set up their own business in that region.
    Mr. Bellingham: Female entrepreneurs in my constituency will be very pleased to hear that, but is the
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    Minister aware that what they do not want is patronising advice from the Government? They want determined effort to lift burdens on business and to improve the business climate. What plans does she have to do that? Does she agree with the British Chambers of Commerce, which said in a recent report that this Government had imposed more burdens on business than any other Government in history?
    Ms Hewitt: If the hon. Gentleman looks at the record and the comparison with other countries, he will find that, according to the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, we have a much lower level of product market regulation than most other advanced countries. We have much more favourable employment regulations than most of the rest of the European Union and, according to all benchmarks, we are one of the best places in which to start and to grow a small business. We are determined to keep it that way, which is why we are making such an effort to improve and further simplify regulations.
    However, we also know that women constitute about one in three of the owner-managers of small businesses and that the proportion is much higher in the United States. There is a great deal more that we shall do to support women to start their own businesses, because there is untapped potential that can contribute to the growth of the economy in the hon. Gentleman's constituency and right across the country.

Business of the House
12.31 pm
Mr. Eric Forth: Will the Leader of the House give the business for next week?
The President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Robin Cook): The business of the House for next week is as follows:
MONDAY 6 MAY The House will not be sitting on the bank holiday. [Interruption.] Another step forward for modernization
TUESDAY 7 MAY—Second Reading of the Police Reform Bill [Lords].
WEDNESDAY 8 MAY—Progress on consideration in Committee of the Finance Bill.
THURSDAY 9 MAY—Conclusion of consideration in Committee of the Finance Bill.
FRIDAY 10 MAY—Private Members Bills.
The provisional business for the week after will be:
MONDAY 13 MAY—Second Reading of the National Insurance Contributions Bill.
TUESDAY 14 MAY—Motion to approve the First Report from the Modernisation of the House of Commons Committee on Select Committees.
Motions relating to the Ninth Report from the Standards and Privileges Committee on a new code of conduct and guide to the rules.
WEDNESDAY 15 MAY—Opposition Day [13th Allotted Day]. There will be a debate on a motion in the name of the Liberal Democrats. Subject to be announced.
THURSDAY 16 MAY—Progress on a Bill. Details to be confirmed next week.
FRIDAY 17 MAY—The House will not be sitting.
The House will wish to know that on Wednesday 15 May 2002, there will be a debate relating to packaging and packaging waste in European Standing Committee C.
Details of the relevant documents will be given in the Official Report.
[Wednesday 15 May 2002:
European Standing Committee A—Relevant European Union documents: 15194/01; Packaging and packaging waste. Relevant European Scrutiny Committee Report: HC 152-xiv, (2001–02).]
Mr. Forth: I thank the Leader of the House for that statement.
I wish to ask, in particular, about the business for 14 May, when the House will consider the Modernisation Committee's report. Can the right hon. Gentleman give any indication of when he expects to table the many amendments to Standing Orders that will no doubt be required to give effect to the Committee's recommendations? Is he having any regrets about what he is proposing to do on Select Committees?
For example, the suggestion of an increase in the size of Select Committees is agitating many Members. I understand that the Leader of the House might want to give a sense of purpose to the lost souls on his Back Benches who have nothing else to do and that he might therefore want to find them a place on a Select
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Committee. However, given that just the other day four Labour Back Benchers bunked off from a Select Committee, does he not find it difficult to justify increasing representation on such Committees when their existing members cannot even be bothered to attend?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the remarks made by one of those Committee members, the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Dr. Palmer)? He said:
"There is a long tradition that Select Committees operate by consensus. That tradition is normally to the benefit of Opposition Members, as, otherwise"—
here, Mr. Speaker, is the key phrase—
"Government Members on Select Committees would routinely pass motions praising the Government to the skies and approving every detail in every Bill."—[Official Report, 30 April 2002; Vol. 384, c. 831.]
Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that that is a remarkable insight into the attitude of Labour Members to Select Committees? Indeed, it is a shocking revelation of their role on Select Committees, which are supposed to be impartial and to operate on a non-political basis.
Is the Leader of the House also aware of early-day motion 1214, signed, I think, by virtually all Select Committee Chairmen, who are members of the august Liaison Committee?
[That this House endorses the Liaison Committee's welcome for the Modernisation Committee's belief in the central role of select committees in parliamentary scrutiny; also endorses the Liaison Committee's support for most of the proposals in the Modernisation Committee's report on Select Committees; regrets, however, that the Liaison Committee's strong concerns that the standard size of departmental select committees should remain as 11 have been overlooked; notes that the collective objections of chairmen are related to their experience in maintaining the cohesion of committees in carrying out the crucial task of scrutiny; points out that an increase of over one-third in the size of most committees would substantially alter their effectiveness and method of working; and urges the Leader of the House to reconsider this important issue.]
The early-day motion challenges the proposal to increase the size of Select Committees, and I suspect I know why. If the membership of Select Committees is increased and if, as I would hope, their budget for travel is not increased correspondingly, those signatories have rumbled the fact that more Committee members would go on fewer trips. That is probably the killer fact in the consideration of that ill-fated suggestion. I hope that the Leader of the House will reconsider what he is proposing, even at this late stage.
I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman about his understanding of the guidelines issued by the Prime Minister on pre-election Government publicity. I have no doubt that he is intimately aware of those, but perhaps it will help right hon. and hon. Members if I give a few choice quotations. The guidelines are headed, "Elections to local councils: guidance for civil servants on conduct". Has the right hon. Gentleman discussed those with the Cabinet Secretary? If not, can we have brief debate on them in the near future?
The guidelines state:
"The period of sensitivity preceding Local Elections is not fixed in relation to any particular date, but the general convention is that particular care should be taken in the three weeks preceding the elections; in this case, from 11 April 2002."

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They go on to say:
"there should he even-handedness in meeting information requests from different political parties … particular care should be taken over official support, and the use of public resources, including publicity, for Ministerial announcements which have a bearing on matters relevant to the local elections".
The guidelines go on to give the further helpful advice that
"it may be better to defer an announcement until after the elections".
Some Departments have taken that suggestion to heart. The Daily Telegraph told us on 30 April that
"the Department of Culture, Media and Sport said: 'We want to publish the draft Bill next week, after the local elections. We cannot publish before then as there are purdah rules in place to cover the election.'"
So that Department was trying to stick to the rules. Then, The Guardian told us on I May:
"the department for culture media and sport said it was unable to make any announcement until after May 2 because of the local government elections in England. Any announcement would be made to parliament first."
So the House can congratulate the Secretary of State and the Ministers at the Department for Culture, Media and Sport on trying hard to stick to the rules.
That is the good news. Unfortunately, not all Departments took that admirable attitude. Is the Leader of the House intending to have discussions with the Cabinet Secretary, and perhaps even with the Prime Minister, about other colleagues who were more cavalier with the rules? I do not want to pick out anyone in particular—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Well, as my colleagues urge me, what about the Home Secretary? He has been parading up and down, talking about more of this and more of that, and of better this and better that, in flagrant violation of the very rules that have just been issued.
Can we have a debate on that matter and, before we do, can the Leader of the House tell us what on earth is going on'? Does anyone in the Government take any rules seriously any more? Is the Prime Minister going to do anything about that? Is the Cabinet Secretary a complete busted flush, or are we going to get some action on this rather than just pieces of paper that are completely ignored by almost every Department except the good old Department for Culture, Media and Sport?
Mr. Cook: First, in answer to the right hon. Gentleman's question about the Standing Orders debate on 14 May, I can tell him that I will be discussing the draft of the Standing Orders with the Modernisation Committee next Wednesday, and I hope to table them immediately afterwards. I hope therefore that they will be on the Order Paper in the week before the debate so that the whole House can see them.
Do I regret the Modernisation Committee's proposals? No, I do not. Nor for one moment do I imagine that the other members of the Committee from all parties who are with us in the Chamber regret what we are proposing. It represents a major strengthening of the Select Committee system in the House. It will provide a form of independent and transparent nomination to Select Committees; it will provide for greater resources, especially staff, for Select Committees; and it will provide a clear statement of the core tasks, functions and focus of Select Committees.
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All that is a very important step towards increasing the powers of scrutiny in the House, and all of it has been welcomed by members of the Liaison Committee, whose report on the Modernisation Committee's report is very positive, describing it as "excellent".
I fully understand the sensitivity of the right hon. Gentleman's party on increasing the size of Select Committees. The Conservatives have so few Back Benchers that they are now obliged to fill up Select Committee places with Front Benchers, so I do not anticipate that they will vote for a significant increase in the size of Select Committees.
Mr. Henry Bellingham: At least our members turn up.
Mr. Cook: On the question of those who missed Monday's meeting, I point out to the House that one of them has been absent from the House for some time because of long-term illness, and we must respect that. Another was attending a funeral—there are times when all Members must carry out such personal tasks—and I understand that another was attending to a family illness. We must approach these demands with appropriate respect because we are all human and we all have such demands made of us.
What the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) is acknowledging is that the full membership of the Treasury Committee would not have signed up to the preposterous report that finally emerged from an unbalanced, badly attended meeting. However, I should have thought that if he were seriously concerned that occasionally an hon. Member will have a family duty to perform and would therefore be unable to attend a meeting, he would support our proposal for a larger membership, to make sure that when one or two Members went missing it did not result in such a disproportionate outcome. [HON. MEMBERS: "Four."] Opposition Members shout "Four", but I have explained that three of those four had perfectly compelling and understandable reasons for their absence. Had those three attended, we would not have had the result that we did. Nevertheless, I welcome the Conservatives' enthusiastic interest in Select Committees, and I hope that they will support the proposals that we will make on 14 May to strengthen Select Committees and to give hon. Members more opportunity to take part in the work of scrutiny.
I shall convey the right hon. Gentleman's congratulations to the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, with an appropriate health warning instructing her to "handle with care", as I am sure she will. I point out to the right hon. Gentleman, however, that if he studies with care the guidelines on what can be announced during local authority elections, he will find that they clearly and specifically state that the business of government must go on. It would be preposterous if central Government ground to a halt for a three-week period. Indeed, I personally warmly support what the Home Secretary announced this week, and if the right hon. Gentleman will permit me I will convey to my right hon. Friend my own congratulations on what he said.
The Conservative party may not like it, but let me tell the right hon. Gentleman that the nation will welcome the announcement of £67 million to tackle street crime, £194 million to create more prison places and £36 million

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more for police operations. We will be very proud today to stand on our record of having created a record number of police throughout England and Wales, and that is one reason why we look forward with confidence to what happens at the polls.
Miss Anne Begg: I understand that this morning GMTV again highlighted the insidious pyramid gifting scheme, women empowering women, which results in women being tricked into parting with up to £3,000 of cash in the hope that they will get back £24,000. Like all pyramid schemes, it works on the gullibility of people who believe that they cannot lose. In fact, only those who get into the scheme at the beginning get back any money, and the vast majority—usually those who can afford it least—lose out.
This scheme has been spreading throughout the UK for almost two years, and it was rife in Aberdeen last summer, when I secured an Adjournment debate on the subject. I was therefore dismayed to hear that women are still being suckered into parting with their money. As it would appear that the trading schemes regulations that came into effect in 1997 cannot be used to stop gifting schemes such as women empowering women, will my right hon. Friend find time to legislate to outlaw this pernicious scheme?
Mr. Cook: I fully endorse what my hon. Friend said. I welcome the fact that she has taken the opportunity of exchanges in the House to warn of those dangers and I hope that her remarks will be reported in her local area. When I was Foreign Secretary, I saw the enormous damage done in foreign countries, particularly in the Balkans, by pyramid schemes, and we do not want to allow them through the door here. Frankly, I would be surprised if the blatant fraud involved were within the law, but I shall happily draw the problem to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry and consider whether fresh legislation is required.
Mr. Paul Tyler: Will the Leader of the House arrange for the House to have an early opportunity to consider the deplorable and depressing situation that has arisen as a result of the collapse of the United Nations' initiative on an investigation in Jenin? It would be preferable to have such an opportunity early next week if the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs can come to the House, as that would be of benefit to all of us.
Will the right hon. Gentleman arrange for the House to have an early opportunity to consider the relative merits of different voting systems? Does he accept that the system that allowed the French nation to be put in its present dilemma is not one of proportional representation, but is effectively identical to the system that the Government introduced today for the election of mayors in seven cities in this country? I understand that last night the Leader of the House and his Conservative shadow agreed on the issue of proportional representation, so can the House have an opportunity to discuss that, too?
The debate that we have long been promised on the report published on 14 February by the Select Committee on Public Administration on House of Lords reform must surely take place soon as we have now had the Government response. A number of the right hon. Gentleman's Cabinet colleagues keep going on about the
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need for the House of Commons to have a predominant voice in the way in which our Parliament operates, so why cannot Members of the Commons be allowed to express a view before consultation is complete? Will he comment on the fact that last night a senior Law Lord was reported as saying that it was extremely important to separate the Law Lords' function from the function of a supreme court?
Finally, we are surprised that there is to be a debate on the report just out on the new code of conduct and guidance on rules. Apparently, it announces a relaxation of disclosure, even though the Wicks committee is still looking at standards of conduct. Is it not premature of the House to take a view on those matters when that important committee has yet to report?
Mr. Cook: On the last point, I have arranged for a debate to be held on the report of the Standards and Privileges Committee at an early opportunity which, to be honest, I believe will be welcomed by the Committee and Members of Parliament. It is important that we should express a view on those matters. I do not readily accept the hon. Gentleman's characterisation of the report as relaxing the rules; on the contrary, it is trying to make sure that we have rules that are easily understood and applied, and therefore more difficult to duck. It is for the House itself to decide, but I can see that there is a case to be made that that will result in more, rather than less, effective regulation.
On the other matters raised by the hon. Gentleman, the Israeli Government's refusal to admit the UN inspection is a grave matter. The investigation was originally suggested by the Israeli Government, who said at the time that they would welcome it. I very much regret that they have changed their mind. I believe that that will rebound badly on them in the world and in international opinion and that it is a mistake according to the test of their own interests. We will of course continue to work through the United Nations to find ways of ensuring a proper audit and account of what happened in Jenin, but ultimately we will require the co-operation of members of the Israeli Government who recognise that it would be better if the investigation went ahead.
On voting systems, I agree with the hon. Gentleman; the system for electing the French President proceeded on the basis of the first two past the post and has run into spectacular difficulty as a result. However, I am encouraged by the dramatic rise in turnout in parts of England conducting a postal ballot for local authority elections—as high as 57 per cent. in Chorley and typically over 50 per cent. in many other areas. It is very encouraging that that change in the system has produced a much higher turnout, and I hope that the other experiments that we are carrying out—for example, electronic voting—will show a similar revival of interest from voters who have found it easier to cast their votes.
I have repeatedly answered questions on the House of Lords. Only this week, I told hon. Members that we anticipate being able to make a statement on the matter before the House rises for the summer recess, and I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman that the sooner that happens, the better. When we have that discussion, plainly Lord Bingham's observations will be relevant.
Jeremy Corbyn: The Leader of the House will no doubt have seen my early-day motion 1223 on attacks on places of worship.
[That this House is appalled that a North London synagogue has been daubed with racist graffiti; expresses its sympathy to the members; condemns any attacks on places of worship of any religion; and calls for respect and tolerance of all faiths.]
I am sure that my right hon. Friend would join me in condemning the disgraceful attack on and daubing of a synagogue in north London last weekend, as well as the other attacks that have taken place on mosques and other places of worship over the past few months. Will he do his best to ensure that the Home Office makes it clear to every police authority that it should give priority to protecting such buildings and trying to track down those who perpetrate such attacks?
Does my right hon. Friend agree that it might be useful if all hon. Members visited mosques, temples and synagogues in their constituencies to show that we as a community are not prepared to tolerate such attacks, and that we recognise that allowing people to get away with them makes race relations considerably worse and is seen as a victory for the forces of intolerance?
Mr. Cook: I readily agree with my hon. Friend. I condemn attacks on places of worship of any religion, and I am sure that the police and appropriate authorities will respond vigorously.
I should add that the incidence of hatred, intimidation, violence and desecration to which my hon. Friend draws attention is another solid reason why today the British people, wherever they are voting, should vote together to reject the fascists who are standing for election.
Mr. Richard Bacon: Does the Leader of the House agree with the recommendation of the Select Committee on Education and Skills that its report on individual learning accounts, which was published yesterday, should be debated, and will he make time—preferably Government time—for such a debate? Such a debate is necessary in the light of the report's conclusion that no evidence was presented to the Committee
"to suggest that Ministers sought advice from other Government Departments, or even heeded warnings from within their own Department, on how to protect the scheme from unscrupulous opportunists"—
and of the admission to the Committee by the Minister with responsibility for adult skills that
"the design of the scheme did not allow us to stamp out abuse"—
in other words, that it was fundamentally flawed. Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise the seriousness of the report's comments about the waste of millions of pounds of taxpayers' money, and will he allow time for a debate?
Mr. Cook: The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that the report was presented only two days ago. As the Prime Minister said yesterday, we will examine it carefully, but cannot give a considered response at this point. I fully understand that the Committee and the House will wish to pursue the points raised, and the Government will respond fully.
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In the meantime, I remind the hon. Gentleman that the Department acted speedily and vigorously when evidence of fraud emerged, and consequently the system was shut down very quickly.
Ms Diane Abbott: Will the Leader of the House make time for a debate on the relationship between Her Majesty's Government and India, so that the House may discuss the rising tide of violence in Gujarat, which has been somewhat under-reported? Hundreds of people are dying week after week, many of them relatives of British residents, and there are disturbing reports of state involvement in massacres of Muslims. Will my right hon. Friend make time for a debate on that very serious human rights situation?
Mr. Cook: My hon. Friend returns to a matter that has been raised in business questions on several occasions, especially by hon. Members representing communities with friends and relatives in Gujarat, who are understandably distressed by what has happened to those communities. It appears that worrying loss of life and serious cases of violence and conflict have occurred in the region.
Foreign Office Ministers have been in repeated contact with the Indian Government to convey the concerns of people in Britain about what has been happening. We shall continue to do so, and I am sure that hon. Members will look for ways in which they can, rightly and properly, express their constituents' concerns.
Mr. Roy Beggs: Will the Leader of the House join me in welcoming the launch in Belfast of the new multi-agency initiative to assess and manage the risk posed by sex offenders in Northern Ireland? I welcome that and, on behalf of my party, congratulate those involved.
Does the right hon. Gentleman consider that a debate on protecting the public against sex offenders would promote more openness on this most serious and sensitive issue, and hopefully encourage greater public co-operation in the campaign to remove this evil from society?
Mr. Cook: I am very happy to join the hon. Gentleman in congratulating all those involved in the multi-agency initiative in Northern Ireland. I hope that they will succeed in achieving more openness about sex offending.
If we are to tackle the problem of making the victims of sex offences feel able to come forward and talk to others about their experiences, we must ensure that they have confidence in the system and understand that we are willing to respond vigorously and give the matter priority. I believe that the initiative in Northern Ireland will go a long way towards achieving that.
Mr. David Borrow: My right hon. Friend knows that the events of 11 September had a dramatic effect on aviation and aerospace industries throughout the world. As the medium to long-term consequences are now becoming clear, does he agree that we are approaching the time when it would be appropriate to debate the matter in the Chamber? Will he do his best to find parliamentary time for such a debate?
Mr. Cook: I cannot promise my hon. Friend a debate on the subject given the pressure on business as we

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approach the end of the Session. However, I shall draw his observations to the attention of the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. As my hon. Friend knows, the Government have closely followed the difficulties of the aviation industry and we are willing to assist in any way that is appropriate.
I am pleased to say that the evidence from the tourist boards shows a revival in visits to all parts of Britain. I hope that that increase in traffic will help the aviation industry out of the crisis into which it fell after 11 September.
Mr. John Hayes: The interim report of the Select Committee on the Treasury has already been mentioned today. Perhaps its most worrying finding was the inadequate consultation on national insurance increases with small and medium-sized businesses, like many in my constituency, which are currently suffering from the shock announcement. Will consultation form part of the Government's annual report, which we expect daily?
When the Government launched the annual report, hon. Members, not unreasonably, expected it to be published annually. We have not received one for some time. Will it be published? Will consultation be part of it? Will the Prime Minister, who has condescended to come before the Liaison Committee regularly, be questioned on the annual report when he performs in that capacity?
Mr. Cook: My impression from the newspapers in the past few days is that the Government have been through a quinquennial report. I believe that we emerged from that assessment with much credit. The Prime Minister is entitled to be given credit for his decision, to which the hon. Gentleman alluded, to give evidence twice a year before the Liaison Committee, which represents all the Select Committees in the House. That is a courageous and proper step, which will increase the power of Select Committees to scrutinise. No previous Prime Minister has taken such a step, including during the 18 years when the Conservative party had Prime Ministers.
Mr. Chris Bryant: My right hon. Friend knows that in the past six to seven months, Argentina has suffered an economic and political crisis that is probably unparalleled even in the history of Latin American democracies. It is affecting many British nationals and companies based in Argentina. Yet, so far as I can ascertain, not a single sentence has been uttered in the House about Argentina in the past six months, despite five opportunities to discuss Gibraltar, which probably affects fewer British citizens. Will the Leader of the House allow an early debate so that we can discuss ways in which to protect British nationals from the problems in Argentina?
Mr. Cook: I congratulate my hon. Friend on setting right the neglect of Argentina in the record of the House. Thanks to his intervention, sentences referring to it will appear. I shall reflect on his comments and there will be opportunities to discuss Argentina in general debates when it is relevant to raise anxieties about Latin America and specifically Argentina. I do not believe that I would be thanked next time there was demand for a statement on Gibraltar if I said that there would be a statement on Argentina instead.
Mr. Andrew MacKay: Perhaps it is understandable for one Labour Member to be missing for
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compassionate reasons from a vital meeting of the Select Committee on the Treasury, but it is surely careless and cavalier for four to be missing. I shall therefore ask the Leader of the House two questions. First, will he deny press reports that he, on behalf of the Government, will in the near future produce a motion to remove some, or all four, of those Members from that Select Committee? Will he tell the House that he has absolutely no intention of doing so? Secondly, will he explain—having failed to do so to the shadow Leader of the House—why he completely disagrees with every member of the Liaison Committee, which comprises, after all, the Chairmen of all the Select Committees, in wanting extra members on Select Committees? It is clear from the experience of the Treasury Committee that that would not work.
Mr. Cook: On the contrary, I think that the evidence to which the right hon. Gentleman refers suggests that perhaps we do need more members on some of the major Committees that handle business. I would like to say two further things in response to the right hon. Gentleman. First, I have had no motion suggested to me in relation to changing the membership of the Treasury Committee. Indeed, the only reference to that that I have seen in the press has been in the gossip columns, and I would strongly advise him not to take the gossip columns that seriously.
Secondly, I would suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should turn up on 14 May and vote for the recommendations of the Modernisation Committee, which provide for an independent Committee of Nomination, representing the House rather than any party, to decide on the nominations to the Select Committees. If he does so, it will not then be a matter for me to decide who should or should not be on a Committee.
Mr. David Chaytor: Given that the questions of democratic participation and voter turnout are very much in the minds of those of us with elections in our constituencies today, and given the many innovative experiments in voting methods to which my right hon. Friend has referred, will the Government make a statement analysing the effect of those experiments on the levels of voter turnout? Will he provide time for a debate in which the House could consider the effects of the experiments, so that we can inform the development of Government policy in respect of changes to voting methods?
Mr. Cook: I can certainly say to my hon. Friend that the Government will make a full analysis of the pilot schemes. After all—
Mr. Forth: Look, it's a doughnut!
Mr. Cook: I am very happy to be a free-standing speaker at the Dispatch Box, without any requirement for a doughnut.
Dr. Julian Lewis: It's not for you. It's a Welsh doughnut for the next debate.
Mr. Cook: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that guidance. It is often difficult to know exactly how many Members are sitting behind me when I have to look over at the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst—a sacrifice that I make every Thursday.

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Perhaps I can return to my hon. Friend's question. I am pleased to say that we shall make a full analysis of the pilot schemes. We did, after all, encourage these pilots schemes to come forward and I believe that we funded most of them. It is already evident that the postal ballots have been taken up with enthusiasm; that might be one early conclusion that we can reach. A whole range of other experiments is being carried out, and I hope to spend tonight in Newham observing the use of electronic voting, which has already enabled people in hospitals and old folks homes, who could not otherwise have voted, to vote. I hope that that will result in more people having a right to exercise their democratic choice.
Pete Wishart: I, like the Leader of the House and several other hon. Members, am pleased that the Prime Minister has agreed to turn up to the Liaison Committee and accept questions from the Chairs of the Select Committees. The Leader of the House will be aware, however, that we in the SNP-Plaid Cymru do not have even a member on a non-regional departmental Select Committee, far less a Chair, hence our interest in the debate on 14 May, as we all support the Modernisation Committee report. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell me when we will have the opportunity to question the Prime Minister, beyond the opportunity available to us at Prime Minister's questions?
Mr. Cook: The hon. Gentleman welcomes the Prime Minister's decision to appear before the Liaison Committee, and I am grateful for that welcome. The decision represents a major step forward and strengthens the accountability of Government to the Select Committee system. I also welcome the fact that the hon. Gentleman will support the increase in the size of the Select Committees. One of the problems with a membership of 11 is that it is difficult to secure a precise, representative balance on each Committee, and, if we can secure the increase that I am proposing, it will be easier to ensure that the minority parties have better representation.
Dr. Julian Lewis: It is tempting to follow the hon. Member for North Cornwall (Mr. Tyler) and call for a debate on proportional representation, as that would give hon. Members the opportunity to remind him and his fellow Liberal Democrats of the role of PR in putting the National Front on the electoral map in France in the first place. I shall resist that temptation, however, and ask instead for a statement or debate on Zimbabwe. Has the Leader of the House seen in today's press the simultaneous announcements of the declaration of a disaster in Zimbabwe—largely due to the maladministration of the Mugabe regime—and of the arrest of The Guardian's correspondent there? I know that the relationship between The Guardian and the Labour party is not as close as it used to be, but I am sure that we all agree that what is happening to journalists in Zimbabwe is totally unacceptable. Is not it important that we do not let the crisis in the middle east divert our attention from what is happening in Zimbabwe now that the election has 0been stolen, as everybody predicted?
Mr. Cook: I am not sure that I recall the golden era of a close relationship between the Labour party and
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The Guardian to which the hon. Gentleman refers, although I have great sympathy with everything else he says. The economic situation in Zimbabwe is appalling and there is a real threat of hunger and suffering in a country that, traditionally, was fertile and which exported food, never mind had difficulty feeding its own people. That is overwhelmingly down not to any failing by the people of Zimbabwe, but to the grotesque mismanagement and brutality of the Mugabe regime. I entirely support the hon. Gentleman in that we should not forget what is happening in that country or stop applying pressure to the regime simply because the elections are over and some television cameras have moved on.
Mr. Alistair Carmichael: May we have an early statement on the worrying delay in the European Commission's response on common fisheries policy reform, which is causing considerable concern in the fishing industry, especially in Shetland? Will the Leader of the House emphasise to his colleagues in the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs that the fishing industry thinks that the European Union and the CFP are drinking in the last chance saloon and that reform as outlined in the Green Paper is welcome, but that anything else will be resisted?
Mr. Cook: I listened carefully to the hon. Gentleman, who speaks with authority, representing the constituency that he does. Of course, the Government are keenly aware of the interest in the Commission proposals and are keen to discuss them with the Commission. However, I must tell the House that, when we receive those proposals, it is important that a long-term perspective on fish conservation is part of the package. Unfortunately, some fish stocks are themselves drinking in the last chance saloon.
Mr. Henry Bellingham: May I again ask the Leader of the House about PowderJect and the smallpox vaccine contract? Last week, I mentioned a Danish company, Bavarian Nordic. Is it true that a German company—Impfstoffwerke Dessau Tornau, or IDT for short—is now involved? We know that PowderJect was paid £32 million on a contract by Her Majesty's Government. Do we know how much PowderJect paid Bavarian Nordic? Is it true that Acambis—another UK company, which has successfully completed two smallpox vaccine contracts for the US Government—was not allowed to bid for the UK contract? Why is that? Can the right hon. Gentleman answer those questions? Is not it time for a debate on the issue?
Mr. Cook: As I have said to the hon. Gentleman—three times now, I think—the contract was awarded following five separate tenders. Although I do not have, off by heart, the names of the other four companies, and although I cannot say whether the company to which he refers is among them, there was a competitive bid involving five different companies and PowderJect won the tender on the basis of providing the best value for money. How PowderJect supplies the contract that it has obtained is primarily a matter for PowderJect. I certainly have no insight into its private accounts.
Mr. Andrew Turner: Now that those whom Damilola Taylor's father believes murdered his son

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have forgone the opportunity to defend themselves in court, but have had a series of soft lobs on the "Today" programme, will the Government introduce proposals to reduce the number of dodges, loopholes and procedural technicalities that make it so difficult for those genuinely pursuing justice to bring cases effectively to trial?
Mr. Cook: The Government have been vigilant and vigorous in pursuing steps to ensure that we can bring to justice those who have committed crime. Indeed, the House will have many opportunities to debate that in the forthcoming Session, when there will be a number of Bills relating to court proceedings and criminal justice.
In this country we are very clear about the separation between politicians and the judiciary. I would deprecate anything said in the Chamber that cast doubt on the outcome of the court proceedings.
Richard Younger-Ross: Perhaps the Leader of the House will find an opportunity to read early-day motion 1228, which concerns effective local councils.
[That this House notes with concern the large number of resignations by town and parish councillors in protest at the implementation of the 'Model Code of Conduct for Parish and Town Councils'; believes that this is undermining local democracy and will severely weaken the representative character of these immensely valuable watchdogs; considers that the code is too Draconian for most small councils and that its implementation should have been delayed for one year to coincide with the local elections in 2003; and calls upon the Government urgently to reconsider both the terms and the application of these constraints.] May we have a debate on the effect of the new model code of conduct?
Is the Leader of the House aware that there have been a large number of resignations from parish and town councils, and that in one instance the entire council resigned? Such councils control very small budgets, and councillors receive no payment for the hard work they do for the community, but they are being asked to declare very small interests. That is a far more onerous requirement than the one placed on us.
Mr. Cook: I shall be happy to consider the point and write to the hon. Gentleman. In the meantime, let me say that I think the country and, too often, the media undervalue the voluntary contribution made by tens of thousands of people throughout the country who make local government work, and neither receive nor expect any financial reward. It is of course important for them to be open and declare what financial interests they may have, because we do not want anyone to be able to profit from his or her position, but most people in local government are driven not by a financial incentive but by a will to serve the local community, and to further their own genuine political convictions on behalf of the community.

Wales in the World
[Relevant documents: First Report from the Welsh Affairs Committee, Session 2000–01, on Wales in the World: the role of the UK Government in promoting Wales abroad, HC 38, and the Government's Response thereto, HC 270, Session 2001–02; Second Special Report from the Welsh Affairs Committee of Session 2001–02, HC 311—Response of the National Assembly for Wales to the First Report from the Welsh Affairs Committee, Session 2000–01, on Wales in the World: the role of the UK Government in promoting Wales abroad, HC 311, Session 2001–02.]
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Ainger.]
1.11 pm
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Paul Murphy): Welsh Members are rarely given the opportunity to engage in a day-long Adjournment debate, on a Thursday, about a matter affecting Wales. There is, of course, our annual St. David's day debate, which takes place around the time of that saint's day, but apart from that we have few such opportunities.
Mr. Nigel Evans: I wonder why.
Mr. Murphy: As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Welsh Grand Committee was due to debate the matter later in the year. For various reasons, however, this slot has become available, and I think it beneficial for Welsh Members to be able to rise to the challenge as I know only Welsh Members can.
I pay special tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd, South (Mr. Jones), who, as Chairman of the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs, initiated the inquiry into Wales's position in the world and what has happened to its profile since devolution. The Committee is extremely important. Over the years, it has more than once highlighted issues of great significance to the people of Wales and, indeed, to the whole United Kingdom. We currently await its report on objective 1 structural funding for Wales. Uniquely, it took evidence on that important issue from me and also from the First Minister of the National Assembly in Cardiff. We also await its reports on farming and food prices, and on broadband cabling. A report on transport in Wales is still under way.
That last example highlights the way in which the Committee is adapting to a post-devolution world. It now meets its counterparts in the National Assembly, where issues such as transport that are divided between the Assembly and the Government can be dealt with jointly. Today, however, we shall deal with an even broader subject—the position of Wales in the wider world. The responses of the Assembly and the Government to the Committee's report on the subject also indicate that government in Wales is a joint affair—that the people of Wales are represented jointly by Members of the House of Commons here and by Members of the National Assembly in Cardiff. Clearly, in this and other instances, co-operation and partnership between the Assembly and the Government can work.
Donald Anderson: My right hon. Friend is right to point out the advantages of partnership

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between this House and the National Assembly. When he and the First Minister talk about modernisation and adapting the procedures of the House, will they consider the possibility of having a joint Committee of the Assembly and Parliament, particularly in matters such as this, in which both the Assembly and Parliament clearly have an interest? Rather than making recommendations to the Assembly, the joint Committee could make representations that draw on the strengths of Members from both the Assembly and Parliament, which could be of real value to Wales.
Mr. Murphy: I shall certainly mention that to the First Minister. My right hon. Friend the President of the Council has now left, but I know that he will read what my right hon. Friend has said in Hansard and take those points into account. We need to be innovative in the way in which we deal with issues constitutionally following the advent of devolution. I take my right hon. Friend's point.
Mr. Bill Wiggin: I hope that the innovations will have a bearing on all our constituents, whether they live on the borders of Wales or are Welsh themselves. One of the difficulties that I face is that I cannot ask the Secretary of State questions about issues that are devolved: because they are devolved, it is impossible for hon. Members even to ask about them. Perhaps one of the innovations that the right hon. Gentleman will seek to bring in will permit some sort of dialogue or exchange in this Chamber to allow the concerns of our constituents on the borders outside Wales to be voiced to him.
Mr. Murphy: I have no problems with that. At most Welsh questions, there is no shortage of hon. Members on both sides of the House asking me questions that impinge on matters that are devolved, as opposed to those that are reserved.
Devolution has highlighted the international position of Wales in a special way. This coming Saturday, in just over 48 hours' time, the 2002 FA cup final will kick off at the Millennium stadium in Cardiff. It will be watched by hundreds of millions of people in more than 100 countries, so the profile of Wales will be raised still more and in a special way this weekend.
As the Select Committee's investigation showed, the problem has been that, internationally, Scotland and Ireland have had a higher profile than Wales for a variety of reasons. Perhaps it is a question of size and of the extent to which the Scottish and Irish diaspora stay together in the United States, Australia and other countries. Although Welsh people did emigrate to America and elsewhere, because of the size of Welsh communities abroad, and for reasons of assimilation, Wales's profile was not as high as that of Scotland and Ireland. The Select Committee report did a great service in trying to find out why that was and, more significantly, how that profile could he raised to make Wales better known and more frequently visited by people from elsewhere.
Mr. Elfyn Llwyd: Members on both sides of the House who went on the
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visit to America discovered that several Welsh expatriates were keen to assist in raising the profile of Wales. We had quite a lengthy telephone conference with them. To our disgust and dismay—I think I speak for hon. Members throughout the House in this—their offers of help to the Welsh Development Agency and Wales Tourist Board were rejected out of hand. Surely there is something wrong there.
Mr. Murphy: I do not know the details of the matter that the hon. Gentleman has raised, but I agree with him in principle. If any help comes from expat Welsh men or women living anywhere in the world, it is important that we take advantage of that. The Scottish and Irish do, and we should too. The hon. Gentleman refers to the United States, and I am sure that other hon. Members, like me, have talked to politicians in the United States.
There is hardly a family in Wales that does not have some American connection: my great grandparents went to Philadelphia, stayed a year and came back again, but there were others who remained in America. More people in Wales work for American companies than for any other foreign companies. That connection with the United States could be used in a positive way for the people of Wales.
Mr. Chris Bryant: Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Murphy: I give way to my hon. Friend, who no doubt has an American anecdote.
Mr. Bryant: I feel almost ashamed to bring in my American anecdote now. My right hon. Friend may be amused to know that when the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport visited the United States recently, the British consul turned out to be from Penygraig and the venture capitalist who led the discussion at Stanford university on the Tuesday morning was from Treorchy. Clearly, the Rhondda has so much get up and go that some people have got up and gone.
Mr. Murphy: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention. Everyone except me seems to have visited America recently.
Lembit Öpik: To make a slightly more serious point, At is worth drawing attention to the success of the south of Ireland in the United States. Ireland has been immensely successful at creating a brand identity in the United States that has clearly brought economic benefits. Does the Minister agree that if we were proactive in this regard, although we might not achieve the same success as Ireland, we could certainly go a long way towards creating a trend of Welsh pride in the United States which could produce not only tourism benefits, but economic benefits which are currently going elsewhere?
Mr. Murphy: Yes. I shall make some specific points about that later in my speech. I visited America several times when I was Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office. The hon. Gentleman will know that 40 million people in the United States claim Irish ancestry. Any comparison should take account of the huge difference in

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scale, although that does not mean that post-devolution Wales, or indeed the United Kingdom, cannot take advantage of the factors that he mentioned.
Kevin Brennan: If my right hon. Friend gets an opportunity to visit the United States in the near future, will he follow the example of my constituent Charlotte Church, who took the opportunity to explain to President George W. Bush where Wales is. Perhaps if my right hon. Friend's ancestors had stayed over there and he had become President of the United States, there might be more awareness of where Wales is. Will he take the opportunity of reminding US politicians where Wales is?
Mr. Murphy: I shall certainly do that, although I have no intention of singing the rest of my speech. My hon. Friend makes a valid point. People like Charlotte Church raise the profile of Wales and Welsh people in a very special way.
To return to Europe, which is geographically closer to home, it is important that we tell the rest of the United Kingdom that, on balance, Wales is more pro-Europe than any other part of the United Kingdom. There are various reasons for that, not the least of which is the fact that Wales has a substantial structural funding regime. Two thirds of the land mass of Wales will now get objective 1 funding. That is crucial to the future prosperity of the Welsh economy, although it is not the only reason why people in Wales feel that they understand Europe and relate to it.
Recently, Welsh politicians have been talking to their counterparts in regional government in the European Union. The Committee of the Regions plays an important role in regional activities and regional government in Europe. I pay tribute to two members of that committee: Rosemary Butler, who is a member of the Welsh Assembly, and Brian Smith, who is a member of the Welsh Local Government Association. They and their alternates play an important role in raising the profile of Wales.
I visited Spain a couple of weeks ago. I went to the Asturias region which, Members will know, is very similar to Wales in that it was traditionally a coal and steel region and has now had to change. After that, I spoke at a conference in Segovia, where there were people from all over Europe who are now looking at the way in which regional government is operating in the European Union context.
Wales is of course playing its part in that context. My Department plays that role; my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary recently led a trade mission to the Czech Republic. Welsh Members of Parliament have a role to play, too. My hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Mr. David) recently took a number of Members to Brussels to talk to people in the EU. The Welsh Affairs Committee has of course visited Brussels, where its members have talked to EU politicians and officials.
In addition, something has occurred that is peculiar to the development of devolution. In establishing the devolution settlements, liaison was important not only between the Government and the Assembly, but with the other devolved Administrations in the UK—the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Scottish Parliament and its Executive. To that end, on 30 October in Cardiff, the Prime Minister chaired a joint ministerial council,
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which looked in principle at how we deal with international affairs from a devolution point of view, and at our relationship with Europe.
In addition to that, the Foreign Secretary chairs meetings of the joint ministerial council on Europe, of which there have been three in recent months. They discussed, among other things, the convention on the future of Europe and the 2004 intergovernmental conference. As well as that, my right hon. Friend the Minister for Europe organises with the Assembly a series of what are called Minecor meetings, which my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary also attends.
What is so new is the way in which the Assembly is participating in Europe. There is specific Assembly representation in Brussels as part of the UK representation. Assembly Ministers go to EU Council meetings. An interesting and important development since devolution is that between April 2001 and March 2002, there have been seven Council meetings, attended by Ministers from Cardiff who deal with culture, the environment, agriculture and education. Indeed, the Assembly Minister responsible has led on youth issues at such meetings. That compares interestingly with four meetings in previous years. I remind Members that, even though Assembly Ministers represent a devolved Administration, they have become part of the UK delegation at such meetings. The same of course applies to Scotland and to Northern Ireland.
Assembly Ministers have visited countries such as Ireland, Finland and Spain, and the Assembly is a member of various EU networks. Those include links with the motor regions of Catalonia, Baden-Wurttemberg, Lombardy and Rhone-Alpes.
Mr. Roger Williams: The Secretary of State is right when he says that Wales is broadly pro-European. Europe is also very pro-Wales. If one introduces oneself as Welsh and living in Wales when one is travelling, one receives a much better reception than if one leaves it to people to assume that one is of some other origin. The benefits that flow from that relationship are often impeded by the exchange rate between the pound and the euro, which disadvantages our manufacturing and agricultural exports, and above all our tourism operators, who have in the past depended on European visitors for much of their trade. Sadly, that is not so to the same extent at present.
Mr. Murphy: Yes, that is particularly important for us in Wales. The hon. Gentleman rather neatly takes me to the next subject on which I propose to touch: tourism. He, perhaps more than any other Member in the Chamber, will know the impact of the foot and mouth disaster and, of course, of the events of 11 September on the tourism industry.
In Brecon and Radnorshire, as well as in other constituencies throughout Wales—especially in Snowdonia—tourism has been badly hit by those events. The Welsh Affairs Committee in its evidence mentioned the need for an improved working relationship between the British Tourist Authority and the Wales Tourist Board, so that they could work together to promote tourism in Wales. For obvious reasons, a British tourist authority exists to promote Wales as much as it does to promote England, Scotland or Northern Ireland.

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We want to maximise Wales's share of overseas visitors and of visitors from other parts of the UK. There are signs, as I am sure the hon. Gentleman knows, that things are getting better for the tourist industry. It will take time, especially given the huge loss of resources suffered by small businesses in Wales as a result of what hit them. However, if good can come from the disaster that has occurred, it is that people in Wales have managed to focus on ensuring that we attract visitors from other parts of the world to come to Wales.
Everyone knows that the core attractions for visitors to the United Kingdom are London, Stratford-on-Avon and, perhaps, Edinburgh. It is often difficult to get visitors to go elsewhere, but it is the job of the WTB and the BTA, working together, to ensure that overseas visitors look at their brochures and understand that Wales has much to offer. We have a great diversity of opportunity for tourists and it is up to us—in the Government and in the Assembly—to ensure that that is promoted.
Mrs. Betty Williams: It concerned me greatly that, 12 months after the foot and mouth outbreak occurred, our television programmes were recently showing pictures of burning animals. If my right hon. Friend shares my concern about that, will he use his good offices to persuade the powers-that-be at the BBC and the other channels to refrain from using such images in their news bulletins? As a Member for a constituency that relies heavily on tourism, I was also concerned—as I said in the Welsh Grand Committee—by the incident that took place over the Easter weekend in which activists from the Cymuned group stood on the cob in Porthmadog. It did not affect my constituency directly, but it affected the constituencies of the hon. Members for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd) and for Caernarfon (Hywel Williams). I would hope that they would join me in condemning such actions, which will affect the livelihood of their constituents. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Does that mean that the hon. Gentlemen do not agree with me? Will my right hon. Friend join me in condemning such actions, because foot and mouth last year brought the tourism industry to its knees?
Mr. Murphy: Of course I condemn such actions, and every right-thinking person would do so. Anybody in their right mind who wishes to increase the tourism potential of north Wales would not partake in those activities, because it is important to give the right impression to people from abroad that when they visit Wales they will receive a proper Welsh welcome.
Mr. Bryant: There is a serious point to be made about the way in which broadcasters portray Wales to the rest of the world. I do not know whether my right hon. Friend has seen the film "Solomon and Gaenor", which is mentioned in the Committee's report. It is a fine movie, but it is unremittingly sad and gives a destructive vision of Welsh society—admittedly some 50 or 60 years ago. What can we do to ensure that broadcasters portray Wales in a positive way that will encourage people to come to Wales?
Mr. Murphy: I do not think that we can abandon sadness altogether. Even we in Wales are sad from time
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to time, about different things. However, I understand my hon. Friend's point: if a gloomy picture is being painted of the way in which we in Wales work and live our lives, that is something that must be considered.
My hon. Friend the Member for Conwy (Mrs. Williams) mentioned her constituency. I was there yesterday, in Llandudno. It was a very nice, sunny, early spring day—
Mrs. Betty Williams: It always is.
Mr. Murphy: I must say that I thought that there was an enormous opportunity there to capture the overseas visitor. The area has mountains and a beach, and hotels in Wales are improving all the time. Indeed, the only five-star hotel in the country is in my hon. Friend's constituency.
Television is important. The British Tourist Authority is advertising on the television, and its overseas campaign will feature Carreg Cennen castle in south Wales. Other advertising ventures will be undertaken by the BTA and the Wales Tourist Board. They are vital to getting people to understand what Wales has to offer.
The House will recall that the WTB is organising a campaign called "Wales—The Big Country", which is aimed especially at getting people from other parts of the UK to visit Wales. All hon. Members representing Welsh constituencies are conscious of the importance of tourism to our economy, especially to small and medium-sized enterprises. That importance arises from the fact that Wales is such a beautiful country.
I know that you, Madam Deputy Speaker, are a Welsh woman and that you are familiar with some of the points being made in the debate. You will know that, in addition to tourism, inward investment has been singularly important in ensuring the strengthening of the Welsh economy over the years. The Welsh Development Agency and Invest UK are working together much more effectively than in the past. They have sponsored events abroad, one of which took place in Hanover and involved Cardiff university.
Companies that have been responsible for inward investment in Wales in the past year include International Rectifier, the Great Lakes Chemical Corporation, Continental Teves, Borg Warner, and ICM Pharmaceuticals. In addition, the Welsh Assembly has made more money available for Wales Trade International.
However, the figures on the business done abroad by Welsh companies are staggering; exports from Wales total about £6 billion, of which more than £4 billion goes to countries within the EU.
Mr. Mark Prisk: Inward investment is important, but does the Secretary of State agree that there is a danger in focusing on that as the sole answer to all problems? Long-term structural changes are needed in the Welsh economy to encourage a sense of entrepreneurship in many communities, but they will not necessarily be stimulated by inward investment. Do not indigenous businesses need support and promotion as much as any form of inward investment?
Mr. Murphy: I could not agree more. The hon. Gentleman is right: we cannot afford to rely solely on companies from other countries to stimulate industrial development in Wales. Such companies, not least those

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from Japan, have been significant for us but, as I said earlier, so have companies from the US. Increasingly, however, we live and work in a global economic environment, and many companies that originated in Wales and the UK have been taken over, often by American companies. For example, in my constituency, more people now work for American companies than work for companies owned by any other investor. That is because local firms have been taken over by American, global companies. An example of that is Girlings, the brake manufacturer, which was originally a British firm, and similar examples can be found in both north and south Wales.
However, the hon. Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr. Frisk) mentioned indigenous small and medium-sized businesses. I know that the Assembly is working hard to ensure that such companies are enabled to fulfil their potential.
Mr. Prisk: The Secretary of State is very generous in giving way again. Many in the Chamber will be concerned, as I am, about steel imports and the American position. What contribution has the right hon. Gentleman made to ensuring that Welsh steel businesses have been properly represented? Perhaps there is an opportunity here to square the deal and respond to the American changes in import controls.
Mr. Murphy: Yes, not least of which was the recent meeting that I had with the First Minister and the Deputy Trade Secretary of the United States Government when he visited Cardiff. We spent a great deal of time discussing those issues. Moreover, I represent a steel constituency; some hundreds of people in my constituency work in the Panteg steelworks and also in Llanwern.
The hon. Gentleman's general point is about the importance of indigenous firms. What they export, from the European point of view, is extremely important. The significance of the exchange rate has been mentioned; it is important not only to the tourism industry but to the steel and manufacturing industries, and is one reason why Europe is of such huge significance to the people of Wales and Welsh industry in general.
The other aspect referred to in the Select Committee report was the importance of the British Council in raising the profile of Wales. Since devolution, it has made an enormous contribution to ensuring that that profile is higher than it used to be. It contributes to festivals, such as that in Hay-on-Wye; it ensures that the catalogues of Welsh literature go to all overseas British Council offices and it promotes the exports of Welsh creative industries, which are increasingly important to us.
It is a staggering fact that more people are employed in the creative industries—in the media, films and music—than were employed in the steel and coal industry combined. When I was a boy, all those years ago, between 250,000 and 500,000 people in Wales, including my father, were employed in those two big industries.
Huge changes have taken place, but the most exciting developments of the past five to 10 years have been in film, media and music. The British Council is helping to ensure that Catatonia and the Stereophonics, to name but two, are known the world over, not just in Europe or the United Kingdom.
Wales Arts International has been strengthened, with four full-time staff in the Cardiff office of the British Council dealing specifically with Wales Arts International.
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The British Council also organised a conference on lesser used languages in Europe, helped by the Welsh Language Board. It trains and gives seminars on devolution to its own staff so that people throughout the world working for the British Council are aware of what Wales is like since devolution.
I am also glad to say that the First Minister has set up Wales International centres around the world. These are not embassies or consulates; instead, they complement the work of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office which supports what the Assembly is doing. The centres raise our profile, helping trade, industry and tourism. The first will be in New York next year, while others will be sited in San Francisco, Tokyo, Hong Kong and mainland Europe. As well as dealing with trade and industry, they work with universities, local authorities, museums, libraries, sporting organisations and, of course, with the diaspora—the expats who were referred to earlier. I pay special tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) who, along with other Members, has dealt with issues surrounding the Welsh diaspora, which are very important to people in Wales.
In addition, there is significant consular representation in Cardiff with honorary consuls from countries in Europe, Africa, south and central America, the far east and Canada. The Irish Consul General in Cardiff does an extremely good job, and a diplomat from the United States embassy is dedicated to dealing with Welsh issues.
Staff in our embassies and consulates around the world are trained, when ambassadors and high commissioners are appointed, to be aware of the United Kingdom's new constitutional arrangements. People in our posts around the world are conscious of devolution.
Julie Morgan: Does my right hon. Friend agree that Wales's standing in the world is also enhanced by the numerous voluntary groups and solidarity groups that have links with other countries and promote Wales as a devolved country throughout the world? I am thinking of one group in particular—the Nicaragua Solidarity Campaign—which has for many years forged links with the autonomous coast of Nicaragua, which has had a long-standing relationship with us because of similarities in our respective language and cultural traditions. Does he agree that those groups, at the grassroots, also portray Wales to the world?
Mr. Murphy: Yes, and I also remind the House that there is nothing particularly new in that. Wales was involved in such activities throughout the 20th century. In fact, it has always been a country that has looked outwards, not inwards. It has been international in many respects of that word. As hon. Members who represent valley constituencies will recall from their histories of their constituencies, many Welsh miners went to fight in the Spanish civil war to oppose fascism.
The essence of Welsh politics has not just been confined to domestic issues, but has extended to international ones as well, and that will be even more so in a devolved Wales. Far from being introspective, devolution has meant that—in the context of being not only part of the United Kingdom, but very special and different, too—we can exercise all the talents of Welsh men and women internationally as well as domestically.
For that reason, I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd. South and the other members of the Welsh Affairs Committee for doing an excellent job in highlighting the

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profile of Wales and in ensuring that the Assembly and the Government have had to react positively to the points that the Select Committee has made. The Assembly and the Government have made enormous strides in raising the profile of Wales. Devolution has added a huge new dimension to our relationship with the rest of the world. It recognises the fact that, yes, we are part of the United Kingdom, but that we are a very special part of it, and I commend the Select Committee's report to the House.
1.47 pm
Mr. Nigel Evans: Today's subject is very important—"Wales in the World: the role of the UK Government in promoting Wales abroad". I am not sure whether to blow the cobwebs off that report—it is more than a year old. I suspect that we have the great people of England to thank for today's debate because, as everyone knows, local government elections are being held in England.
I am afraid that we will have to wait a couple of years for similar elections in Wales because, as the hon. Member for Conwy (Mrs. Williams) said, the Welsh Assembly, in its great wisdom, decided to defer the Welsh elections by 12 months, so that they would not take place on the same day as the Welsh Assembly elections. None the less, I dusted down my copy of the report and had a good read. It is important that we do not look a gift horse in the mouth; we should take the opportunities that exist. I suspect that we had to battle hard against all the other competing bids for today's subject.
We should build on the report. In parts, it is a fairly miserable report, given that, of all the United Kingdom's constituent parts, Wales comes fourth out of four in terms of recognition. We are mostly known for things such as the Princess of Wales and the Prince of Wales. News bulletins in the United States of America used to refer to them as the Waleses. [Interruption.] That is absolutely true, so it is indeed a case of God bless the Prince of Wales.
We are also known for our rugby skills, although I suspect that people are nostalgic about them these days. So there are the usual stereotypes, and I remember that the Minister for Europe, the right hon. Member for Neath (Peter Hain), was very keen on the phrase "Cool Cymru", but I suspect that his campaign has foundered.
I heard what the Secretary of State said about groups such as Catatonia, the Stereophonics and the Super Furry Animals. I suspect, however, that Wales does well out of their great success and talent in music rather than from anything that we can do. Charlotte Church was also mentioned, and Tom Jones was one of the great leaders in all of that.
The stereotypes are predictable, but the amount of ignorance about Wales worries me. When Charlotte Church met the President of the United States, he said to her, "What state is Wales in?" I do not know whether he was referring to the geography of Wales or the state of Wales. President Bush has a good sense of humour, and I suspect that he now knows exactly what state Wales is in.
Ignorance about Wales is perhaps not confined only to great world leaders. I received a reply yesterday to a question that I asked the Minister for E-Commerce and
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Competitiveness. I asked him what effect Post Office redundancies would have on communities in Lancashire. He replied:
"The Consignia board decided that the company's costs needed to be reduced to stem its losses and improve its performance. At the moment it is not immediately clear what the effect in Wales will be."
I know that Wales is a large country, but it is interesting to note that even Ministers cannot work out its boundaries.
I decided to enter the word "Wales" into the Google internet search engine to see what came up. The No. 1 area of interest was the Welsh Assembly; the Wales Tourist Board only featured second. Perhaps the Welsh Assembly has now become the great tourist centre for the whole of Wales, and people are queueing up to visit it to see where everything is happening. After all, there is wall-to-wall coverage of the Assembly on S4C2.
Donald Anderson: The hon. Gentleman is not being helpful in the sense that anyone who has visited the Welsh Assembly's information centre must be impressed by what is there. It is, perhaps, a model that the House should follow.
Mr. Evans: My concern is getting people into Wales in the first place, not thinking about people queueing for and flocking to the Welsh Assembly's information centre and where they will go afterwards. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will share my concern that we need to get more tourists into Wales. I think that he will agree with some remarks that I shall make later about Swansea.
I wonder whether people were flocking to the Welsh Assembly to look at the £8 million hole where the new Welsh Assembly building should stand. Rarely has so much taxpayers' money been spent on achieving absolutely nothing. A fence has been erected around the hole to stop the tourists flocking there to look into it. That is a great shame; the fence should be taken down. Normally, when money is being misspent, people say that it is money being chucked down the hole. At least the Welsh Assembly has created the hole down which all the money can be thrown later. This is the new bold Wales, where our politicians can turn their backs on a children's hospital for Wales while spending millions on building a palace to glorify their own presence—and they cannot even get that right.
Chris Ruane: Will the hon. Gentleman inform the House whether he voted for or against the £250 million for Portcullis House?
Mr. Evans: With my hand on my heart, I cannot tell the hon. Gentleman, because I suspect that the vote went through at 11 or 12 o'clock at night, without a huge debate on the issue.
Lembit Öpik: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Evans: I shall do so in a moment. I know that the hon. Gentleman probably wants to welcome the defection yesterday of a Liberal Democrat on Cardiff council to the Conservatives. I shall give him every opportunity to praise that.
We all know about the transport problems in Wales. Sue Essex's and Rhodri Morgan's fun ride—the pods that are supposed to go between the Welsh Assembly and City

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hall—will cost £20 million. It is a case of Richard Rogers meets Buck Rogers in the 21st century, and it seems as though it will be a Disneyworld invention.
Thank goodness, the £20 million for the pods could not be better spent. We are grateful that all the roads in Wales are in good nick. There is no street crime, no waiting lists for the national health service and all our schools are in tip-top condition. There is nothing on which the money could have been better spent. Sadly, however, that is not the case. I know that the money could have been spent in a better way.
Lembit Öpik: I considered welcoming the defection of a Tory councillor to the Liberal Democrats—I refer to Mary Megarry in Pembroke—but I wish to make a plea for consistency. In the interests of consistency and not talking Wales down, will the hon. Gentleman seriously answer the question and tell us whether he opposes the kind of construction projects that led to Portcullis House and to the millennium dome, which I believe he supported at the time? If he says that he did not oppose those projects, how can he criticise the reasonable proposals in Wales that are designed to create a long-standing home for the Assembly? Members of the Conservative party in Wales, at least, seem to support the proposals.
Mr. Evans: Conservative Members of the Welsh Assembly totally opposed the erection of a new building on that site. They believed that the money should have been spent on a children's hospital for Wales. I hope that Liberal Democrats in Wales would want the money to be spent in that way.
I have said enough on the record to show that I thought that the £250 million for Portcullis House was extravagant expenditure. I also thought that the dome should never have been built. Indeed, I refused to go there throughout the entire time that it was open—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): Order. Let us get back to debating to Wales in the world.
Mr. Evans: I am grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker, to get off the subject of the dome; the sooner we move on, the better.
Mr. Llwyd: I do not want to intrude on private grief, so will the hon. Gentleman join me in congratulating Ian Botham on his superb effort to raise nearly £1 million for a hospital for children in Wales? Will he, and Labour Members, consider signing early-day motion 1224, which is on that subject?
Mr. Evans: I welcome the early-day motion. I was delighted by the enormous effort and commitment that Ian Botham put into the walk. I believe that Catherine Zeta Jones met him at one stage of the tour. We should recognise the enormous efforts that he made to raise such sums, but I have just spoken about £40 million for a new building for the Welsh Assembly and £20 million for the project involving the pods. We should consider using those vast sums in other ways.
Huw Irranca-Davies: During the period of neo-colonial Tory rule, the popular perception was that
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Wales was out on the fringe. The then Secretary of State sent back £100 million to the Government, who told him what a good boy he had been.
Mr. Evans: Successive Secretaries of State for Wales showed an enormous commitment to Wales over the 18 years that we were in power. I bet that people in the hon. Gentleman's constituency and elsewhere now feel that, five years after the promise was made that "Things can only get better"—not just in Wales, but the whole UK—things have not got better: in fact, they have got a great deal worse.
Let us take the opportunity provided by this debate to tick some boxes. The Secretary of State for Wales might care to put in a bid to hold a debate on Wales in the world every year so that we can consider the issues raised by the report and the Government's response and examine suggestions made by the Welsh Assembly and by councils throughout Wales. That would enable us to see how we could do a lot a better for Wales. We should create tick boxes to set targets by which we can be judged in 12 months' time.
Mr. Roger Williams: Going back to the hon. Gentleman's opposition to Portcullis House and the dome, will he explain why he accepted an office in Portcullis House when he refused to visit the dome?
Mr. Evans rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I have already ruled on that matter.
Mr. Evans: Thank you for your protection, Madam Deputy Speaker. As a riposte, however, may I ask why the hon. Gentleman accepted a seat in Westminster on the basis of first past the post when his party opposes that system? I assume that he did that because it is the system and the Liberal Democrats use it. For the same reason, I have an office in Portcullis House.
I want to consider those things on which we can make a difference. The Secretary of State mentioned tourism, which is vital to Wales. It accounts for 7 per cent. of our gross domestic product and one in 10 Welsh jobs. Some 100,000 jobs in 10,000 businesses, many of them small businesses, are in that industry. I do not declare an interest because my retail business in Swansea is not on the tourist trail. If any tourists are wandering around Town hill, I suspect that they are lost or visiting relatives. However, the industry is important. It contributes about £5 million a day to the Welsh economy and 50 per cent. of tourism revenue comes from rural Wales. An increase in tourism benefits all such businesses.
The Secretary of State mentioned foot and mouth, which was a dire disease. It hit agriculture hard. We now know, if we did not know it before, how important agriculture and the natural environment are to tourism. We need to reconsider what support we can give to Welsh farming and we must have a public inquiry into foot and mouth to ensure that it never happens again.
Overseas tourism is worth about £12 billion to the United Kingdom. Wales has only a small share of that—about £176 million, or just under 1.4 per cent, which is a tiny percentage. The report clearly highlights the fact that many visitors do not know about Wales even when they

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are in the UK. Sometimes, people visit Wales because of congestion on the M6. When they turn off the motorway to avoid that, they discover that Wales is a jewel within the UK and a superb place to visit.
I heard what the hon. Member for Conwy said and think that the vast majority of people in Wales open their arms to tourists and give a big welcome to visitors from any part of the world, including England. English tourists are important to Wales. They spend money at bed and breakfasts and hotels and in restaurants and cafés. It is important that we make certain that everyone in England knows they will get a good royal welcome when they come to Wales.
We know what Wales has to offer historically. The Secretary of State spoke about the beauty of Wales. Its coastline is superb, from the Gower peninsula right up to Aberystwyth—[Interruption.] Yes, the coast goes right round to Llandudno, which will shortly host the Conservative conference in Wales.
Chris Ruane: What about Rhyl?
Mr. Evans: I also mean Rhyl and a number of other areas.
Wales is also known for the international music festival in Llangollen and the Eisteddfod, which alternates between north and south Wales. Cardiff hosts the international singer of the world contest, and there are other international music festivals. We have much of which we can be proud.
I was born in Swansea and lived there for 33 years. Some of my family still lives there. I think we have learned a great deal in that time. Swansea used to have the oldest passenger railway in the world which ran along the Mumbles road. In the 1960s, in a gross act of wanton vandalism, the railway was done away with. We now know that it would have helped with congestion on the Mumbles road, and thousands of tourists would have come to see it.
Donald Anderson: The railway would have involved public expenditure and might have made the children's hospital less attainable.
Mr. Evans: The number of tourists who would have come to Swansea to see the oldest passenger railway in the world would have earned Wales enough tax pounds and produced sufficient money through a growing economy for that not to be a problem.
We know that Swansea has a lot to offer. We know too that Cardiff is a buzzing city with great growth and development, and not only because of the millennium stadium. We wish both cup final teams and their supporters well. We hope that the weather is fine for them and that they have a peaceful and enjoyable Saturday in Cardiff. May the best team win.
Huw Irranca-Davies: I welcome the direction that the hon. Gentleman is taking in his speech, which has a very positive outlook. He mentioned that significant tourist attractions can draw in people from abroad, and we have seen that happen with the Guggenheim museum in Bilbao.
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Does that mean that the hon. Gentleman welcomes such architecturally magnificent palaces because they lead to worldwide recognition of an area?
Mr. Evans: It depends on what is done in those buildings. I think that architecture is important in certain circumstances. The old City hall in Cardiff, for example, is a wonderful and impressive building, and people would come to look at it because of its architecture, both inside and outside.
We have talked about all the great things in Wales, but we know that we have a problem in getting tourists into Wales. One difficulty is competition from cheap airlines. One only has to look on the internet to see that there are several, including BMI, easyJet, Ryanair, Go and Buzz, which can fly people to an amazing array of places for small sums. They can go to Barcelona, Portugal, Ibiza or Nice for £25, to Dublin for £19, and to Venice for £15. They go to those places for sunshine, among other things, and we have to compete in that market and do better.
I heard what the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) said about southern Ireland. The Irish Tourist Board has a 'very large budget—four times that of Wales—so perhaps we ought to look at ours. We should find out how it is spent, how effective it is and what the return is. We can then see whether we can do better with our resources.
Mr. Wayne David: The hon. Gentleman mentioned a number of cheap airlines. Will he be using them when he goes round Europe to study the national health service in various countries?
Mr. Evans: I do not know which airline the shadow Secretary of State for Health has been using, but when it comes to returns, the hon. Gentleman will soon be learning of our policies to improve the NHS in this country, including Wales, where of course it is in a poor state.
Those who have travelled to the United States of America and other places recently will have seen the Welsh Development Agency advertisement, which comes on after the news and before the main movie or entertainment section. It is a very good advertisement, and it will achieve enormous returns for Wales. One of the greatest growth areas in the economy is tourism, and within that the greatest growth is in short stays—people stay somewhere on Friday and Saturday night and return home on Sunday. We have to be in that market.
Cardiff airport is successful, and I am sure that we were all disappointed by the announcement that British Airways was withdrawing a number of routes. That cannot be good news. In 1999, 1.3 million passengers used the airport, and in 2001 the figure was more than 1.5 million. That is a good growth record, and although 11 September may have affected it somewhat, we can only hope that use of the airport continues to grow. We need a proper roads infrastructure leading from the airport to the M4, and the road between the airport and Cardiff needs dualling. The airport should be seen as a gateway to south Wales, and we need to ensure that it has the proper infrastructure.
I turn now to regional airports. In the USA, states do very well out of regional airports. We need to look at what we can do to ensure that our regional airports are

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given every support. The right hon. Member for Swansea, East (Donald Anderson) mentioned Swansea airport, which serves one of the growth areas in Wales. It is absolutely superb. Oxford Economic Forecasting states:
"Good air transport links are one of the key considerations affecting where companies choose to invest."
Swansea is the 22nd largest city in the United Kingdom. We know that there is a problem with the three-hour journey to Swansea—the extra hour between Cardiff and Swansea seems to take longer than 60 minutes, and does on many occasions—and we need to see what we can possibly do with the airport. Within a radius of approximately 25 miles of the airport there are 730,000 people. That catchment area is bigger than those for Norwich or Exeter, and 1,000 passengers a day could use Swansea as a regional airport, thus cutting commuter traffic. As we know, there is congestion in parts of the city.
I commend Martin and Louisa Morgan, who took over Swansea airport from the local authority. The airport was always seen as a dead weight around Swansea council's neck but we hope that, with the Morgans' investment and entrepreneurship, it will become a magnet not only for people in Swansea, but for the whole of west Wales. We all recognise that the announcement about ITV Digital will have an appalling effect in Pembrokeshire, where more than 1,000 jobs will be lost—a tragedy for the area, which already has the second highest unemployment in Wales. We need to look at boosting business opportunities in Swansea and west Wales. Martin and Louisa have already invested a considerable amount in Swansea airport. When I was a lad, its glory was fading and the airfield was used more for car boot sales on bank holiday Mondays than for air traffic.
Thanks to the Morgans' investment, they now employ 50 people, although there were only three employees when they took the airport over. The airport has full fire facilities and restaurants, and I hope that the Secretary of State can visit as soon as possible to see what sort of help he can give the airport and Air Wales, which has been responsible for the boost in air traffic at Swansea. If the runway was extended, it could take charter aircraft and 737s, which could mean that direct links with other European capitals would be on the cards. Air Wales already flies to Dublin, a hub for the rest of the world, and we must see what we can do to assist with an expansion of flight destinations. I was staggered to learn that none of the airports in Wales is eligible for objective 1 funding, which is a great shame, as it might have given them the extra boost that they need. Will the Secretary of State examine that matter as Welsh airports need investment? Will he meet the Welsh Development Agency, local authorities and any representatives of the Welsh Assembly to put in place a strategy for Swansea airport and, following that, other regional airports?
I pay tribute to Roy Thomas, who started Air Wales only a couple of years ago. The airline now employs 30 people and flies from Cardiff to Cork and Dublin, which is welcome following British Airways' announcement of the withdrawal of its Cardiff-Dublin service. Last October, Air Wales started to fly from Swansea to Dublin and, a month later, to Cork as well. It is now looking to buy two larger, 42-seater planes to add to its existing 19-seater Dornier aircraft. Air Wales is doing a terrific job; we should see how we can help it and Swansea airport.
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A Swansea-London route would be a great link. It would be great for tourists travelling to London and for business people in London who wish to expand their enterprises in Wales. If we had an airport that could provide such a service, the London route would pay for itself. I urge the Secretary of State to have discussions with Air Wales and Swansea airport to see if we can do anything to facilitate that. Expansion would help bed and breakfasts, hotels, restaurants and conference facilities, not only in Swansea but in a much wider area, and would help us to develop opportunities in west Wales.
On a recent visit to New York, I saw a full-page advertisement in The New York Times placed jointly by British Airways and the British Tourist Authority. It said:
"It's time you followed in your father's, father's, father's footsteps."
I do not know how much that advertisement cost, but would it not be great if we saw a full-page advertisement trying to get people to come to Wales? I urge the Secretary of State to have discussions to see how we can advertise Wales more directly as a first stop for people who want to come to Britain. I make no apology for having devoted the majority of my speech to tourism, because it is an enormous growth industry that is vital to Wales, and we must see what we can do to improve and increase it.
I want briefly to cover two other aspects of Wales in the world, the first being Atlantic college, which the Secretary of State has visited on at least two occasions. When I went there recently, I spoke to the principal about how the college is expanding. Anyone who goes there cannot but be impressed by what it has to offer. It runs a two-year baccalaureate and has 330 students from 70 countries—although, sadly, only 20 are from Wales. I know that the Secretary of State was impressed by what he saw, so will he consider how to enable more students—many of whom are on bursaries—to go to the college, which has a superb reputation not only in Wales, but throughout the world?
Three weeks ago, I met a senior Chinese politician touring the House of Commons, who said that he went to Atlantic college. There are enormous potential spin-offs from all the links that that gentleman will develop back in China as his career progresses. The college has been open since 1962, and thousands of youngsters have passed through it, mostly from other parts of the world. That will pay dividends for Wales in future as those young people remember—with great affection, I suspect—their experiences in Wales.
When I spoke to the college principal, he talked about a young girl from a valley seat who had recently come for interview, and whom he described as dynamite. The college offered her a three-quarters bursary, but her parents are unable to meet the cost of the other quarter. It is a crying shame that a Welsh youngster with the necessary ability, skill and talent is unable to benefit from going to Atlantic college. At one time, local authorities provided bursaries to send young people from all parts of Wales to the college, but no longer. If there is still an opportunity to get that young girl into the college, will the Secretary of State consider what can be done to assist in that, whether through local authorities or business sponsorship? Let us open the doors of that Welsh college to more Welsh people and, indeed, more people from the United Kingdom.

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I mentioned the collapse of ITV Digital and the enormous impact that that will have on an area that is already an unemployment black spot. That comes on top of job losses in other companies, including Consignia, throughout the whole of Wales: British Airways, in Cardiff; Pirelli Cables; RD Precision, which makes aircraft parts; Alcoa; GE Aircraft Engines; Corning Optical; and Sony. The Secretary of State knows first-hand about the enormous impact of the closure of Corns, which led to redundancies in south and north Wales.
The WDA is playing its role in trying to sell Wales, but its job has become tougher since it has had to compete against other development agencies throughout the whole of the UK. The Secretary of State spoke about our representatives going to New York, San Francisco, Tokyo and other parts of the world. I mentioned China, which is of course one of the great growth areas of the world. It would be useful to try to secure more trade between China and Wales. He said that the representatives will be properly trained. Will he ensure that they are fully aware of the extent of the abilities of manufacturing and service companies in Wales, so that they can be proactive about looking for the opportunities abroad that will enable our exporters to build on the £6 billion that he mentioned, as well as finding new opportunities to help some of our smaller businesses?
The report is important. This debate has come about by a fluke, but let us use the opportunity well by being constructive in our suggestions about how to help businesses in Wales. We should not walk away thinking, "Oh well, that's another day filled; there's no vote, so we can just forget about it", because that would be a complete waste of the debate. Let us revisit what we said today because I am sure that hon. Members from all parties will make constructive suggestions about ways to support Welsh businesses and get people more interested in Wales. Let us reconsider the debate in 12 months and ascertain what has been achieved and how we can build on the opportunity that today provides.
2.19 pm
Mr. Martyn Jones: I am grateful for the opportunity to debate the report of the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs on "Wales in the World". As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said, we originally asked for a debate in the Welsh Grand Committee because the subject is primarily, although not exclusively, of interest to Welsh Members. However, most hon. Members who represent English constituencies are otherwise occupied today and I am therefore pleased that we can debate the subject on the Floor of the House, which is even better than a Welsh Grand Committee.
It is good to debate the report after a sufficient length of time to test the Government's responsibility. Although the report is entitled "Wales in the World", the Welsh Affairs Committee surprisingly did not travel abroad. I offer my sincere apologies to our friends in the Press Gallery, if any are present, for so cruelly denying them their junketing headlines. We stayed in the United Kingdom for the inquiry.
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The inquiry arose from a visit to the United States when we were considering social exclusion.
Mr. Llwyd: Ah.
Mr. Jones: The hon. Gentleman will remember Chicago.
We saw some amazing projects in relation to the social exclusion report. The hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd) said earlier that we held an interesting telephone conference—we failed to get a video conference—with business men throughout the United States while we were there. One of the tenets of our report on economic investment in Wales was that Members of Parliament and Assembly Members should contact business men and women of Welsh descent when they travel abroad to encourage contacts.
We were disappointed at the lack of liaison between some aspects of the UK Government's promotion abroad and business men and women who have links with Wales. That prompted us to hold the inquiry, which involved inviting various authorities to see us here rather than junketing around the world. We also invited famous Welsh people to give evidence, including Bryn Terfel Jones, Tom Jones and Catherine Zeta Jones. None was able to attend in person, and many members of the Committee were devastated that Miss Jones—perhaps I should say Mrs. Douglas—could not be present.
There was no conspiracy to ensure that only Joneses gave evidence. None of the three celebrities whom I mentioned are directly related to me.
Chris Ruane: They must be somewhere along the line.
Mr. Jones: They may well be distantly related, as all Joneses probably are. There is a serious point. Jones should be synonymous with Wales, as Roberts, Williams, Evans—
Lembit Öpik: Ö
Mr. Jones: I am not sure about that.
Chris Ruane: Murphy.
Mr. Jones: The Secretary of State's name represents one of our competitors, Ireland.
Jones is as important to Wales as are O'Reilly, O'Brien, O'Malley or, indeed, Murphy to Ireland or MacGregor, MacDonald or MacAllister to Scotland.
Mr. David Wilshire: Or Smith to England.
Mr. Jones: Indeed, However, American Smiths do not necessarily believe that they are English, whereas an O'Malley in Chicago, who may be fifth or sixth generation, still thinks of himself or herself as Irish. Welsh people come across the problem when trying to promote Wales abroad. The most obvious reason relates to the patterns of emigration from Britain to the US in the 19th or 20th centuries.

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The Irish emigrated to the US in much greater numbers than the Welsh and formed distinct Irish-American communities. Their Welsh counterparts were more likely to be integrated and assimilated in the melting pot of American society, possibly because of names.
Donald Anderson: To add a historical note, the great boom in emigration to the United States occurred at a time of relative prosperity in Wales, when there was inward migration to areas such as the valleys from rural areas. We therefore lost out in the period of emigration to which my hon. Friend refers.
Mr. Jones: I am sure that my right hon. Friend is correct.
Hywel Williams: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that much of the migration in Wales was from north to south and from west to east? We should be proud of that, and not worry too much about the lack of Welsh diaspora in the United States. North-south and west-east migration saved many communities throughout Wales from economic decline and ensured the preservation of the Welsh language.
Mr. Jones: The hon. Gentleman is partly correct. Nevertheless, many people left Wales to go to America. For example, many coal miners in Michigan were of Welsh descent. They were called Jones and Williams, and it was therefore not obvious that they were Welsh. I do not completely accept the hon. Gentleman's point, but to extend it, many Welsh people emigrated to England. There was also immigration from England.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East (Donald Anderson) was right to say that we did not emigrate at that time because we did not have to. We were not in the same sad position as the Irish. Nevertheless, those who went to America from Wales tended not to be perceived as a distinct group, unlike Irish-Americans. It is therefore rare to meet a native-born American who describes himself as Welsh. A notable exception is Glyn Davies, the Deputy Chief of Mission at the US embassy. He is No. 2 to his excellency William Farish, the ambassador, and is proud to display his Welsh ancestry.
The position has begun to change since the advent of the Internet. Myriad genealogy websites hosted in the United States on the world wide web are dedicated to helping Americans trace their Welsh ancestry. As the hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) said, a survey by the British Council of young professionals and post-graduate students in 28 countries showed that, despite the world wide web, a problem remains: people with Welsh ancestry do not relate to Wales; they simply do not know about Wales.
The survey, which was undertaken in October 2000, showed that only 67 per cent. of respondents mentioned Wales when they were asked to name the constituent countries of the United Kingdom. By contrast, 85 per cent. mentioned England, 80 per cent. mentioned Scotland and 72 per cent. mentioned Northern Ireland. When they were asked to name something that they associated with Wales, the most common responses were the late Princess of Wales and the Prince of Wales. Rugby, sheep, castles, the valleys and coal mining were among the other predictable answers. Probably none gives a true picture of
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Wales nowadays. There is nothing wrong with tradition, but those responses do not project an accurate image of modern Wales.
Many of the people we spoke to in America thought that Wales's lack of recognition in the wider world was a problem. Obviously, we did not expect the Government to be able to tackle the underlying demographic reasons for Wales's low international profile, but we decided that the issue was worth looking at to see what more could be done to boost Wales's image overseas.
The UK Government and their associated public bodies, and the National Assembly and its sponsored public bodies, have responsibility for promoting Wales abroad. Although the responsibilities of the Government relate primarily to the promotion of the UK as a whole—or of Great Britain, in some cases—those of the Assembly relate specifically to the promotion of Wales. That is not the whole story, however. Economic policy, transport links, housing, environmental protection, broadcasting and telecommunications all have an impact on investment and trade, including invisible exports such as income from overseas visitors.
The promotion of Wales needs to be seen as a thread running through numerous Government policy areas, rather than as a distinct policy in its own right. It is also important to recognise that promoting Britain or the UK as a whole is not enough. Wales, as the least-recognised country in the UK, is bound to lose out in an all-UK approach to overseas promotion. We believe that there must be a distinct promotion of Wales as a tourist destination, a location for inward investment and an exporter, alongside the more general promotion of the UK as a whole.
I am sure that other hon. Members will want to speak on trade and investment, but I shall make just a few points on those matters. Two bodies are responsible for promoting trade and investment in Wales.
Chris Ruane: Before my hon. Friend moves on to trade and investment, may I make a point about foreign tourists coming to Wales? The hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) mentioned that only 1.4 per cent. of the foreign tourists who visit the UK come to Wales. How far does my hon. Friend think that the Welsh Affairs Committee's recommendation that the British Tourist Authority should set specific targets for each region of the UK will go towards redressing the imbalance?
Mr. Jones: My hon. Friend makes a good point. I shall come in a moment to tourism and the dichotomy between our population as a proportion of that of the UK as a whole and the amount of investment and/or tourists that we get. We are not pulling our weight in terms of the proportion of our population, and setting targets might well be a way forward. I do not think that that was a conclusion of our report, but perhaps the Government will look at the matter.
As I was saying, two bodies have responsibility for promoting trade and investment in Wales: British Trade International—an agency of the Foreign Office and the Department of Trade and Industry—which was created in 2000 to bring together the various components of trade and investment promotion for the UK; and WalesTrade International, which was established by the Assembly at about the same time to bring together the overseas trade

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work previously carried out by the Welsh Development Agency and the Assembly itself. WalesTrade International has two members of staff based overseas, and the WDA has 25. British Trade International has a network of 1,400 overseas staff, based in more than 200 posts and covering roughly 140 overseas markets.
Although they are still relatively new organisations, the evidence suggests that Trade Partners UK—the branch of BTI that handles trade—and WalesTrade International are working well together. Assembly officials went so far as to describe their working relationship with Trade Partners UK as "excellent". The chief executive of BTI told us that it had had a good deal of success with a number of products from Wales, including contracts in Brazil and South Africa for a Merthyr Tydfil firm that makes heavy lifting equipment, the export of camera equipment for use in large stadiums and the export of self-adhesive film used in the aircraft industry to the middle east and Latin America. One reason for the good relations between Trade Partners UK and WalesTrade International might be that Trade Partners UK was first established at about the time that devolution was taking place, and efforts were made to involve the devolved Administrations right from the start.
Over the past 20 years, Wales has been markedly more successful than other parts of the UK in terms of inward investment. Although its share of inward investment into the UK has fallen over the past 10 years or so from 19 per cent. to 11 per cent., it is still far higher in proportion to its share of the population. That is one plus factor. Inward investment was effective in creating large numbers of jobs to replace those lost in the coal and steel industries in the 1970s and 1980s. Unfortunately, the need for inward investment in steel-making areas is becoming just as pressing now as it was then, as Corus implements its closure programme.
Unfortunately, witnesses' confidence in Trade Partners UK was not entirely matched when it came to Invest UK, British Trade International's inward investment wing. The WDA works closely with Invest UK and believes that it has a successful track record, but it is concerned that Wales has, on occasion, been poorly represented by Invest UK. It alleges that a number of high-profile investment missions from Japan and Korea have not included Wales on their itinerary, despite the fact that both countries have strong business links with Wales and despite lobbying from the WDA.
To some extent, this is reflected in Invest UK's outcomes. Of 757 inward investment decisions recorded by the WDA in 1999–2000, only 45 went to Wales. At just under 6 per cent. of the total, this is considerably smaller than Wales's overall share of UK inward investment, suggesting that investors who approach the UK through Invest UK are less likely to invest in Wales than those who approach it via some other route. My hon. Friend's suggestion about targets might have some relevance to Invest UK's policies.
The First Minister told us that relations between the WDA and the Invest in Britain Bureau, Invest UK's predecessor body, had been "pretty unhealthy" for a long time, but that, since the creation of BTI, relations with Invest UK had begun to improve. Invest UK's main argument about the level of support it provides to the WDA is that it is not for Invest UK to direct potential investors to any particular part of the UK. Investors must
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make their own decisions, based on their business needs and on what each region has to offer. Invest UK's job is to maximise the total size of the investment cake. I would suggest that it is not doing that if it does not get the same proportion of investment into Wales as it is getting in general terms.
I shall move on to tourism. Wales's share of inward investment may be greater than our share of the population, but our share of overseas tourists is much smaller. We get about 1.4 per cent. of Britain's £12.7 billion overseas tourism revenue. The hon. Member for Ribble Valley mentioned that point, and it is relevant. Tourism is important to the Welsh economy as a whole, and particularly important in those parts of the country where it is the main source of income for local businesses. On the positive side, we get about 8 per cent. of domestic tourism revenues.
I am sure that hon. Members need no reminder of the many reasons why Wales is such an outstanding tourist destination, but for those who are interested, we set some of them out in paragraphs 22 to 25 of the report. Even that rather lengthy list only skims the surface.
Mr. Wiggin: I would like to take this opportunity to ask the hon. Gentleman about the effects on tourism of foot and mouth disease, and whether he shares my concern that we could see a similar crisis if more is not done to tackle bovine tuberculosis? No tourism business could take that kind of knock again, and I hope that he will persuade Labour Members that more needs to be done.
Mr. Jones: I shall come to the effects of foot and mouth in a moment; I share the hon. Gentleman's concerns about its tangential effects on the tourist industry. It behoves hon. Members not to make too much of bovine tuberculosis. Like foot and mouth, it is not a disease that presents a problem to the general public because of the way in which it is controlled, although it is a problem for animals. We would hope, however, that any control measures would not impinge on tourism. I think that that is the point that the hon. Gentleman was making.
The best quote that I heard about Wale's tourism potential was given to me recently by a hotelier from Llangollen, in my constituency—a gem, I might say, for any tourist wishing to come to Wales—who told the tale of an American tourist who happened to visit his bed-and-breakfast place. The tourist was driving southwards from Scotland, but got lost somewhere around Manchester, just before he reached the M6. He ended up in north Wales, having strayed, by accident, from the tourist rut that runs from Edinburgh to London via Stratford. He described the beauty of the landscape he witnessed as "knocking the socks off' anywhere he had previously visited. Such is the potential that we are privileged to have in our small nation.
One matter of concern that we discovered during the inquiry was the nature of the British Tourist Authority's targets. Although the BTA's general aim is to promote a regional spread of visitors, its main target is achieving a certain return on investment. We were concerned that that would militate against promoting cheaper areas of the country such as Wales, which offer the tourist much better value for money, and work in favour of London and the

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south-east of England, where tourists may rely on paying multiples of the prices that they would pay in Wales for transport, accommodation, food and entry to attractions.
Essentially, tourists could be ripped off in the south-east whereas they could get much better value for their dollar or mark—or their euro, now—in north Wales. I am sorry, in Wales generally; that was a Freudian slip. [Interruption.]
Chris Ruane: I hear a "north-east Wales".
Mr. Jones: I am trying to change the emphasis, as the hon. Member for Ribble Valley talked about south Wales all the time.
Chris Ruane: He was Swansea-centric.
Mr. Jones: I have never heard that term before, but it is probably a misnomer, as Swansea is not centric to anywhere. Nevertheless, the area is wonderful, particularly the Gower. I am sure that tourists would not be ripped off in Swansea, were they to go there.
The Committee was pleased to learn from the Government's response that the most recent funding agreement between the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and the BTA, covering 2001–02 to 2003–04, sets a measurable target for the authority to increase year on year the proportion of additional spend that it delivers through visits outside London. I would be interested to hear an update from the Minister, if he could provide one.
Tourism is more important to the economy of Wales than to the economy of much of the rest of the UK, and it is estimated that one Welsh job in 10 depend on tourism. At the end of our inquiry, just over a year ago, we made a two-day visit to north Wales, where we met representatives of the local tourism industry. Our intention was to discuss the inquiry's subject matter, but the conversations inevitably turned to the foot and mouth crisis. The news that we received was deeply worrying.
Tourism operators were not unsympathetic to the dreadful situation faced by farmers at that time—indeed, many were themselves farmers or from farming families—but there was a great deal of concern about the impact on tourism of measures being taken to halt the spread of what is essentially an animal disease.
We found that almost all tourism operators experienced a significant drop in trade, and some attractions had not reopened since the outbreak began. Many youth hostels and national park visitor centres were closed, as were 17 of the 18 National Trust sites. Those businesses that remained open reported falls in business ranging from 20 to 100 per cent. Even the conference trade was affected, with hotels in Conwy and Llandudno having bookings cancelled at short notice.
We were extremely worried by what we heard and, at our next meeting, the Committee directed me to write to the Secretary of State for Wales to set out our concerns. That was over a year ago. I would very much welcome a statement from the Minister on the steps that the Government are taking to reverse the damage done to the tourism industry at that time.
The third broad area that we examined was culture, the arts and sport. I do not propose to say a great deal on the subject because, towards the end of our inquiry, the
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Assembly established Cymru'n Creu, which is a cultural consortium that includes bodies such as the Wales Tourist Board, the WDA, the Arts Council, the Sports Council, broadcasters and several others, and covers the interests of the voluntary sector and the creative industries more broadly.
Many concerns related to poor co-ordination of different organisations and events. We believe that the creation of Cymru'n Creu was an effective response, but we recommended that the relevant UK bodies should forge strong links with the consortium. In particular, we recommended that the Government should consider ways to promote Welsh film and television programmes—one of the success stories so far in the promotion of Wales abroad—to a wider audience.
I have touched on a number of recommendations that relate to specific policy areas. However, as our inquiry progressed, we became more and more convinced that the solutions were not specific to a particular sector of international promotion—sport, inward investment, broadcasting and so on—but were general, affecting the work of the Government and the Assembly as a whole. That chimes with the Assembly's desire to adopt an all-Wales approach to overseas tourism.
A key recommendation was that the Government should adopt ambitious targets for secondment between the National Assembly and UK Government bodies. As it stands, the memorandum of understanding between the Government and the Assembly allows such secondments, but they have been slow to get off the ground, at least in part because the Assembly attaches more significance to secondment to EU bodies. That is understandable, especially given the importance of European structural funds in Wales.
However, it is also important to ensure that those who work for the UK Government overseas are fully conversant with the devolution settlement and are aware of and sensitive to Welsh issues. We suggested a target—every UK Government post overseas should have at least one member of staff with experience of working for the Assembly or another public body in Wales—and we were pleased that the Government responded positively, although they stopped short of committing themselves to our proposed target.
Assembly-sponsored public bodies such as the WTB and the WDA have staff based overseas and the Assembly has its own office in Brussels, but those staff are spread thinly on the ground. We suggested that one way to expand the coverage of each ASPB would be to establish a single brand—a common name and logo—to enable ASPB overseas offices effectively to act as Welsh embassies by providing a first stop for access to the full range of services provided by the Assembly and the relevant services provided by the UK Government.
In the majority of cases, that might involve little more than fielding and forwarding queries or distributing other organisations' literature, but a single, easily identifiable brand identity would help to promote a clear, strong image abroad. We do not have that at present, although it became clear that establishing such a brand is one of the most important steps that we could take. The WDA has a good logo—half a dragon—and Wales is identified with the dragon. So, although we might not use the WDA version, such a logo would be useful.

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Two main institutions represent Wales in Brussels—the Wales European Centre and the Assembly's Brussels office. We saw their shared premises during a recent visit made in connection with our current inquiry into objective 1. The WEC has had a presence in Brussels since 1992. It was set up by the WDA and Welsh local government, and the partnership that contributes to the centre has grown to more than 70 public bodies.
Although the Assembly is a partner in the WEC, it opened its own Brussels office in 2000. Assembly office staff have diplomatic credentials, which give them access to UK diplomats, Foreign Office papers and so on—an inside track on the UK's relations with the EU. Clearly, however, the current arrangements could generate confusion over the respective roles of the two offices.
I am sure that the Assembly would not have set up two offices in Brussels with similar and, to some extent, overlapping remits had it been starting from scratch, but the WEC had been running for seven years when the Assembly was established, so it was decided to build on the existing arrangements.
The First Minister announced two weeks ago that the Assembly will relinquish its WEC membership to enhance its own representation in Brussels. That is correct, I believe, but the bodies involved should work together to ensure that there is no duplication of effort in promoting Wales in Europe.
As the Secretary of State said, Wales has only one full diplomatic post—the Irish consulate general in Cardiff. The Committee wrote to the embassies of those countries with full diplomatic representation in Scotland or Northern Ireland to ask why they had not established a consulate in Wales. Many thought honorary consuls sufficient to meet their needs and some said that, although they would like to establish a full consulate in Wales, their budgets would not permit it. The Italian ambassador told us that he would personally recommend upgrading the consulate in Wales.
More important than overseas diplomatic representation in Wales is the quality of British representation overseas. Our main recommendation is on secondments, but we felt that more could be done on specific Welsh representation in some of our embassies. The Irish have made extremely good use of St. Patrick's day as an opportunity to promote Ireland. Indeed, it has become an international celebration that is perhaps marked more enthusiastically in some countries than in Ireland itself.
Each Irish Cabinet Minister is required to spend the day at an Irish embassy somewhere in the world, leading the celebrations there. We did not go so far as to suggest that Assembly Ministers should be despatched around the world on 1 March every year—or, indeed, that Members of Parliament representing Welsh seats should travel to all parts of the world on that day, although I would volunteer for that—but we recommended that every UK embassy should hold a specific St. David's day event to promote Wales every year.
The Government told us in their response that posts are encouraged to celebrate St. David's day "where appropriate" and that 20 did so in 2001. That is slightly disappointing, and I would be pleased to learn in due course that the number of posts celebrating St. David's day this year was somewhat higher.
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I have not covered all the ground in the report, because my Committee colleagues will want to mention it and I do not want to steal their thunder.
2.49 pm
Lembit Öpik: I am impressed by, and grateful for, the efforts of the hon. Member for Clwyd, South (Mr. Jones). Despite my disappointment at not being able to pound the streets of Southwark and Bermondsey, I am greatly consoled by finding myself in such auspicious company, surrounded by Welsh Members and by the would-be Welsh Members on the Conservative Benches.
Wales's role in the world has been a subject for debate ever since the Romans were given a fright by the axe-wielding Queen. Boadicea. It seems that the centurions considered the Celtic fringe too much trouble to bother with, so they built the A5 and used it to drive home. We had to wait nearly 2,000 years for the completion of the harbour development in Holyhead—and, for that matter, for any real improvements to the A5.
Apart from some castle building in the early middle ages, there has not been much macro-political investment in Wales by London's political classes, so it is hardly surprising that Wales still seeks to define its role not just in the United Kingdom and Europe, but in the world. That has given us political opportunities to argue among ourselves about the Welsh national identity, but it also gives us a significant opportunity to sell Wales as the great undiscovered territory, the "big country" in the United Kingdom, in terms of both tourism and economic development.
There is a problem with the Welsh identity. Wales is not yet entirely confident about its own nationality: it is not sure how it wants to project itself. The strengths are well known to us—gentleness, depth of character, a traditional commitment to communities and, very important, a willingness to look out for each other that has, I think, been lost in other parts of the United Kingdom. Those strengths, however, constitute a weakness in a sense. The clarity of identity that we must have if we want a confident international image has yet to be fully developed.
Along the eastern border of Wales, for instance, many people do not even regard themselves as being part of the nation. They tune their televisions into Central Television. I do not criticise them for doing that, but we should acknowledge that we have not yet made the Welsh identity so attractive that people feel comfortable, even proud, in associating themselves with it.
Hywel Williams: I am relieved to hear the hon. Gentleman refer to some of the structural difficulties that have arisen in the construction of Welsh identities in the past. Perhaps he would like to explore those, rather than ascribing problems with the Welsh identity to individual Welshmen and Welshwomen.
Lembit Öpik: That is what I was trying to do. I was not suggesting that any individual, or indeed Plaid Cymru, was responsible for either abusing or failing to define the Welsh identity. Indeed, I accept that Plaid Cymru has had a healthy and diverse internal debate in seeking to define itself.

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As the hon. Gentleman implies, in some respects the issues are structural, and are underlined by interesting debates engaged in by the Welsh nationalists. The lesson is not that we should condemn Plaid Cymru for grappling with those issues, but that if the nationalists are grappling with them, it is hardly surprising that Wales as a nation is doing the same. All parties here, and in the National Assembly, have an opportunity to try to identify the essence of Welshness that can sell the nation in the United Kingdom, Europe and the world.
Other countries have managed successfully in that regard, and we can learn from them. Members have mentioned Ireland's success in defining itself very clearly. I know the Irish experience well, because I was brought up in Northern Ireland, but I can give an even more interesting example, that of Estonia. Some claim that Wales is too small to sell itself viably on the international circuit, but Estonia has had many more serious problems of the same nature and has nevertheless succeeded in doing so. Its population is less than half that of Wales, and until recently it was not well known; but in the last 10 years particularly, it has been singularly successful in achieving the kind of profile that Wales, too, has an opportunity to achieve.
Public recognition of a nation's achievement is not always necessary. Members who have bought products from Ikea may be surprised to learn that those products are likely to have been built and designed in Estonia. For a time, there was an item of furniture that shared its name with my brother Endel. There are close family ties with Ikea's product lines. Estonia has also done what Wales could do in terms of music. I am sure that many Members have heard the music of Arvo Pärt, a very successful classical composer. That shows what can be done with a clearly defined identity.
Talking of music, Estonia is host to the Eurovision song contest. My only slight regret is that, had things been different, I could have won the contest last year. As things are, I must content myself with my harmonica.
My final example from Estonia relates to its football team, which made a very successful visit to Wrexham—
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. May we return to the subject of the debate, which is "Wales in the World"—interesting though the hon. Gentleman's comments are?
Lembit Öpik: I apologise if I was digressing too much with reminiscences of my genetic past. I was about to mention Wrexham, the venue for the last international game in which the Estonian football team took part.
Mr. David: Has the hon. Gentleman any plans to move back to Estonia?
Lembit Öpik: That is always an insurance policy in my back pocket lest things turn bad in Wales, although I am sure that I shall not need to avail myself of it.
Let me now deal specifically with Wales, and explain my brief digression into the Baltic states. My point was that if a small nation such as Estonia can achieve this kind of international profile, there is no justification for suggesting that there is a barrier to Wales's achieving it. The report is very clear about the opportunities available to us in, for instance, tourism, culture, language, sport and, of course, trade and industry and investment.
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According to the report,
"Wales's poor share of the overseas tourist market is largely due to the country's poor recognition overseas".
Members who have spoken have made that clear as well. The argument is almost circular, but it highlights the fact that we have a great opportunity to sell Wales to other countries and potential visitors. It is not that those visitors have positively decided not to visit Wales; they are simply not aware of the opportunities. I pay tribute to the Wales Tourist Board for its "big country" campaign, which is an innovative way of trying to advertise—certainly in the United Kingdom market—for more internal tourism. It may provide some pointers on what can be done internationally as well.
Earlier, I suggested to the Minister that we had an opportunity in the United States. Ireland has clearly taken full advantage of its opportunity there. Our opportunity is less than that of the south of Ireland, but we could bring about a manifold increase in our links with the United States. I have often thought that there could be a Celtic tour involving Scotland, Ireland and Wales, with an historical package that would be very attractive to tourists from the United States. If we can pool our resources with those of Scotland and the south of Ireland, we shall be working with successful groups that would themselves stand to benefit.
The report suggests that we promote Wales as a first-choice destination, and it is in that context that we would be most successful. As the hon. Member for Clwyd, South implied, tourism is a tremendously important part of our economy, producing £2 billion per annum—£5 million a day—and employing about 95,000 people. We must recognise tourism as a serious economic opportunity. Even a small percentage increase in turnover will lead to benefits. In addition, tourism tends to be important in areas that are perhaps less successful economically than Cardiff and other large areas. The money can be disproportionately effective in stimulating local economic development.
Jenny Randerson, one of the Liberal Democrat Assembly Members, has worked hard on this issue, and is a member of the Britain abroad taskforce. I am pleased that we are working in partnership with other parts of the United Kingdom to stimulate such development.
On culture, language and sport, we need to choose our branding. We need to decide how to identify ourselves clearly with the products that we most want to push. The list in the report shows that, left to their own devices, would-be visitors to Wales are not necessarily latching on as clearly as we would like to key selling points.
Again, there are lessons to be learned from Ireland, which has chosen some key products that are now internationally identified as brand names not just of the companies that produce them but of Ireland. An obvious one is Guinness. Who can deny the success that Guinness has had in branding Ireland as well as its product?
Chris Ruane: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that there are Welsh products with international recognition, including Ty Nant water?
Lembit Öpik: The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. We have started on that path. We are beginning to be quite successful with various cheeses: Caerphilly cheese stands to be an internationally recognised brand.

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Everything is there, which is why achieving the kind of success that Ireland has had will not be such a big leap. Ty Nant water could be the Welsh equivalent of Guinness, but I am sure that there will be even more successful brands.
From a cultural perspective, we could start to brand Wales as a centre for performing arts. The international Eisteddfod has not yet been mentioned.
Mr. Llwyd: Yes it has.
Lembit Öpik: I am sorry; apparently, it has been mentioned, but I would like to mention it too. The Eisteddfod has been tremendously successful in building relations between the countries that send representatives and the Welsh nation. By coincidence, no fewer than two Estonian choirs attended last year's Eisteddfod—but shall leave further discussion on that to a time outside the Chamber.
We need to recognise that, when other countries send representatives to our international Eisteddfod, a lot of publicity about Wales is generated in those countries. Effectively, we open a cultural shop window, which will, I hope, attract tourists. I suspect that if we took a strategic approach and encouraged the Wales Tourist Board to think clearly about the opportunities that that opens up, the international Eisteddfods could pay back into the Welsh economy much more than they already do.
On sport, rugby has already been mentioned, sadly, but there is a great undiscovered opportunity, and that is Welsh soccer. A large number of people in Wales, as in the rest of the United Kingdom, celebrate the sport of soccer every weekend, but we have not yet made a breakthrough in selling Welsh soccer, as the Scottish have with Scottish football.
One reason for that—I raise this unabashedly—is the BBC's resistance to giving Welsh football a level playing field. I am tremendously disappointed that, despite having run a campaign for over a year, the BBC refuses to include the Welsh football scores on the Saturday announcement. Two minutes is about all it would take to do a reasonable job—l00 minutes a year. The BBC has yet to respond. I warn it that an angry mob of Welsh football supporters will eventually inundate Broadcasting house with letters and petitions until justice is done. I hope that the BBC will take note of that respectful plea for parity.
One successful example of sporting achievement is that we have for the time being managed to secure the Millennium stadium as the greatest venue in the UK for many sporting activities. According to the report, it was curiously described by one commentator as
"Wales's own Sydney Opera House".
I imagine it would be difficult to play football between seats, but the implication is that the Millennium stadium is an entity in its own right, a celebration of Welshness, not least because of its distinctive external appearance. The stadium is well marketed and well used. The Wales Tourist Board and indeed the Welsh Assembly may seek creative ways in which to use the stadium to promote Cardiff as a destination for sport lovers from outside the UK as well.
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On trade and industry, sheep and farming are important in areas such as that represented by my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Mr. Williams) and me, but we must recognise that they do not make up a very large proportion of the overall turnover of the economy. While we must be careful not to run down the land area of Wales, a majority of which is farmed, we must recognise that the true economic breakthroughs for driving the Welsh economy need to be found elsewhere.
We should specialise again. There are some centres of excellence in Wales, which we have yet to bring together strategically so that international investors regard them as significant. The two I want to mention are film, media and music, and aerospace.
With regard to film, media and music, there is a particular talent in Wales, above and beyond what one would expect on a pro rata basis. It has provided some great performers. Many regard Tom Jones as one of the true ambassadors of Welsh entertainment—"it's not unusual" to hear that even in Estonia.
There is a great chance for us to drive the Welsh film industry. The film industry generally in the UK is reviving. It looks with great interest at what is going on in Wales. Aside from the economic turnover, it puts Wales generally in a positive light. Some great actors have come out of Wales. Catherine Zeta Jones has been mentioned repeatedly, but there are others.
Mr. Prisk: In terms of the hon. Gentleman's tour of the cultural aspects of Wales—I entirely endorse his comments, although I was not quite clear what an unlevel playing field was in relation to football—will he join me, and, I am sure, all hon. Members present in supporting the bid by Cardiff to become the city of culture for Europe? It is an extremely important bid.
Lembit Öpik: The hon. Gentleman is right to mention that. I was going to come to it but I will cover it now. I imagine that not one individual in the Chamber would refuse to add their enthusiastic support to Cardiff's bid. Cardiff is almost there already. When we see the success, indeed the transformation, that was achieved in Glasgow, we can speculate about the long-term benefits that it could bring to Cardiff and to Wales. Cardiff would then be a showpiece of culture; the performing arts of the nation in particular would be a showpiece.
Kevin Brennan: I warmly welcome the intervention by the hon. Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr. Prisk) and the response by the hon. Gentleman, who has signed early-day motion 1177 on the subject. I invite the hon. Member for Hertford and Stortford to add his name to it and to encourage his English colleagues from the Conservative party to sign it, too.
Lembit Öpik: This is exactly the new, positive approach to inclusive politics that I referred to in my speech on St. David's day. Having had sharp words only a few weeks ago, the hon. Gentleman and I are now speaking and marching as one to the resonant sound of the performing arts in Cardiff—[Interruption.] I see even more back-patting breaking out among Labour Members.
Huw Irranca-Davies: It certainly is a matter for back-patting. I too congratulate Cardiff and I have signed the early-day motion. It is a golden opportunity not only for Cardiff but for Wales.
Lembit Öpik: Indeed it is. As hon. Members who may be looking for an opportunity to put those fine words into action will know, the May festival in Newtown is coming up soon. Hon. Members are most welcome to attend and they will receive a warm invitation from me to come along and have fun. Although Cardiff is not the be all and end all in investment terms, it is a useful showpiece for Wales. One justification for significant investment in major arts projects in Cardiff is the knock-on effect on the rest of Wales. For example, performers who may not otherwise have come to Wales may be attracted to come to Cardiff and perhaps go on to tour Wales.
The performing arts offer many other benefits and I am sure that we will hear about them from other hon. Members. Strategically, rather than trying to do great things in all the arts, those who have influence over these matters should seriously consider specialising in the performing arts that are the historical basis of the Eisteddfod tradition.
In the context of trade and industry, my other suggestion on specialisation for Wales is the aerospace industry and regional airports. The hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans), who is not here to hear my compliments, put his finger on the button when he referred to airports and the large number of jobs connected with aerospace in Wales. The industry has a high turnover and provides some 20,000 jobs.
Hon. Members may be surprised to learn that Wales has the oldest space port in the world. Aberporth was founded in 1939 when the secret rocket propulsion group was evacuated from Fort Halsted near London. It operated throughout the war and has been operating ever since. It represents an enormous international opportunity for Wales to play a meaningful role in the developing environment of space technology. [Interruption.] I hear hon. Members muttering the word "asteroid". I am not suggesting that Aberporth become the home of the Spaceguard UK project to prevent near earth objects hitting the earth because that is already based in Knighton.
Chris Ruane: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the fine tradition of Wales's association with space continues in my constituency as 50 per cent. of the glass used in reflectors in satellites is made by Pilkington which is based there?
Lembit Öpik: The hon. Gentleman is right. The Welsh aerospace industry has a turnover of £2 billion. Space shuttle windows are produced by Pilkington and its control valves by Ellisons. Bangor university developed the Zero-Gee experimental chamber for the international space station and the engineering department at University College Cardiff is doing some important work on the Herschel space telescope which will be orbited as the successor to the Hubble space telescope.
Hon. Members are aware of my passion and interest in aerospace and for once my hobby accords well with the economic opportunities for Wales to specialise as a true centre of global excellence in an industry that is guaranteed to grow exponentially in terms of the amount of money devoted to it.
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Wales is due about 5 per cent. of the British national research budget from the research councils, amounting to about £60 million per year, but it does not get more than a fraction of that. Most of the cash goes to organisations in the Thames valley, the access corridor to Oxbridge. In order to shine internationally in this sector, we should lobby those who have the power to distribute that money more equitably and make sure that it is diverted to places where it can be of most use to the United Kingdom. Needless to say, I believe that that means that Wales would get a fairer share.
You will be delighted to know, Madam Deputy Speaker, that I am having a meeting in Cardiff to discuss that very issue; I can see that you can hardly contain your excitement. As the potential is so huge, I hope that hon. Members whose constituencies are directly affected by the aerospace industry—the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Mr. Ruane) has made his commitment clear—will be able to work together to create for Wales a truly forward looking, cutting-edge, high-technology industry capable of competing with the best in international space development.
Finally, let me make a few suggestions about how we can convert our vision of a positive international role for Wales into a reality. First, we need to look outwards. We must not waste our energy on pointless internal debates. I am sorry that the hon. Member for Ribble Valley is not here as I wanted to chide him for his criticisms of the proposed investment in a permanent home for the Welsh Assembly. The reason why that has international significance is exactly the same as the reason why there are often long queues of people waiting to watch our proceedings. Although this is our primary workplace for discussing matters such as the subject of today's debate, investment in the Assembly also makes a statement to the world about the United Kingdom and our democracy. It was a trifle churlish of him to criticise such an investment because he was being a little hypocritical. He was damning of the millennium dome and Portcullis House and said that he had not visited the dome on principle, yet he has an office in Portcullis House.
Mr. Laurence Robertson: That is not the point.
Lembit Öpik: It is precisely the point. If we want Wales to be seen in a positive light, we must be willing to make courageous investments in the short term which pay off in the long term. Part of that is an investment in the public image of the democratic process that we hope will play an increasingly significant role in decisions for the Welsh people. The hon. Member for Ribble Valley is a tremendously nice man—at least from time to time—but Conservative Members must view difficult long-term decisions for Wales in a less opportunistic way.
Mr. Evans: The hon. Gentleman has found his way from Estonia through Ireland and into Wales. Will he state clearly that he agrees that taxpayers' money would be far better spent on a children's hospital, for instance, than on a palace for the politicians of the Welsh Assembly? Indeed, as he knows, the result of the referendum was

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very tight. If the people of Wales had known that £40 million was going on a building, they probably would have voted no.
Lembit Öpik: We are straying off the subject, but I hope that I will be permitted one sentence in response if I promise not to mention Estonia.
Chris Ruane: The hon. Gentleman just has.
Lembit Öpik: The hon. Gentleman has seen through my clever plan.
The argument deployed by the hon. Member for Ribble Valley is cheeky, because the matter is not one of either/or. Indeed, he might argue similarly that had we not built Portcullis House, we could have built 10 children's hospitals around the United Kingdom. I simply counsel him to value the benefit of consistency or to move out of his office in Portcullis House.
Chris Ruane: And preferably out of the country.
Lembit Öpik: The hon. Gentleman should not be naughty.
I shall finish with a few thoughts about the benefits of us all becoming international ambassadors for Wales. I know that the hon. Member for Clwyd, South always carries his passport, but we can all make an effort in other ways. We can fulfil one implicit recommendation in the report by asking prominent people in the diaspora of Wales to play their part in selling Wales. There are many examples of successful ambassadors for Ireland and for Scotland, and we probably undersell ourselves by simply not asking questions of such people, who would probably be willing to celebrate their Welsh connections.
In addition, we should exploit the potential of unexpected heroes who have high credibility around the world. Robert Owen, who coincidentally was born in Newtown in Montgomeryshire, was the architect of the co-operative movement—and who would deny that? He has a tremendous standing in certain parts of the world, way beyond that which he enjoys in the UK. His work is admired and he is well known among many people—not just academics—in Japan, which is mentioned in the report. There may be opportunities for us to create cultural tourism and an economic respect for some of the traditions in Wales, and to use that as one way to increase our standing on the international circuit. The Robert Owen Society has done great work in promoting that case, and I do what I can as well.
Robert Owen is just one example that I know of; I am sure that hon. Members could think of similar ambassadors from the past who could be used to illustrate the extent to which Wales has influenced international thinking. I have little doubt that such an approach could provide an important and meaningful lever in places such as Japan and elsewhere.
In addition, we need to make greater ambassadors of our national celebrations. Let us consider what St. Patrick's day has done for the south of Ireland. It prompts a global celebration. To Rhodri Morgan's great credit, he has seen such potential. Indeed, he went to the United States of America on St. David's day to make some
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important statements about the expansion of our public image. We could make money and a great deal of international capital by ensuring that we do the same assertively and creatively.
Mr. Evans: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there was a tartan parade in New York on St. Andrew's day, just as there is a parade for St. Patrick's day? Because the United States is such an important market, it might not be a bad idea to concentrate a little effort in New York and do something similar for St. David's day.
Lembit Öpik: The hon. Gentleman is right; we could all add our creative thoughts on how that could best be done. Few countries in the world fail to take such opportunities. For example, there are tremendous celebrations, with which hon. Members will be familiar, on independence day in Estonia every year—I assure hon. Members that that will be the last time that I mention that country in this debate.
It is good that we have had, for whatever reason, an opportunity to debate on the Floor of the House the role of Wales. I am confident that, blessed as we are with some of the best journalists anywhere in the world, we shall get a fair wind in tomorrow's press, as they act as ambassadors for a new spirit in the media, providing the inspiration that will flow from this Chamber like wild fire, first through the Welsh nation and then across the wider world.
It would be worth reviewing how we are doing on this subject. The hon. Member for Ribble Valley suggested that we revisit it in 12 months' time, but that will of course be the day of the Assembly elections. I think that we need a little longer to allow such a strategic approach to take root.
Nevertheless, if Wales has the courage to develop the kind of visions that we are discussing—I have added my views—and we have the soul to reach out across the world to potential friends, allies and investors in Wales, we can not only make more frequent travellers to Wales spend a little longer in our fair nation more often, but we can make Wales the final destination for international investment. It is up to us to make that happen in partnership with the Welsh Assembly. If we do so, I am sure that a larger proportion of economically active individuals and the Welsh public will feel that we are serving them well in a practical sense.
3.26 pm
Ann Clwyd: This has been a very interesting debate. I now know quite a lot about Estonia. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) for filling me in on those details.
I also want to talk about other countries and Wales's link with them. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said at the beginning of the debate, Wales has always been internationalist in its approach to the rest of the world. I think of Keir Hardie, or of Henry Richard, the apostle of peace, and of the many people who have contributed to the success of the United Nations. Wales has always played an honourable role in key posts in the United Nations, yet we sometimes forget the contributions that we have made to the development of that institution.
My international interest began at Urdd UNESCO summer schools at Pantyfedwen. I would like them to return to the Welsh scene because they made an important

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contribution to the education of so many Welsh schoolchildren. I attended them at the ages of 14 and 15. Children from all over the world went to Pantyfedwen near Aberystwyth for those summer schools. We used to watch films about other countries, famine and poverty, and we had lecturers such as Lord Richard Calder, who is a very famous name in the United Nations. Somehow, those summer schools engendered in us, children brought up in Wales, the ideas for which I am very grateful. In my case, they have meant a lifelong interest in international affairs and international development. I therefore hope that that opportunity will be offered again to the children of Wales some time in the very near future.
Hywel Williams: Will the hon. Lady therefore applaud and welcome the recent initiative taken by Urdd Gobaith Cymru and Cymorth Cristnogol—Christian Aid—to establish Croeso Calcutta, which will link young people in Wales with that great city on the Indian sub-continent?
Ann Clwyd: I welcome all such links; they are very important. The twinning arrangements of so many Welsh towns bring together two communities whose people might not otherwise have an opportunity to visit people in other countries. That has been important in Cynon Valley, for example, which is twinned with many other parts of the world. I certainly welcome that.
I also pay tribute to the National Union of Mineworkers, which always maintained its international links. The father of my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon (Dr. Francis), Dai Francis, was one of those who ensured that such international links were solid and continuous. Indeed, the mining community that is still left in my constituency has considerable links with miners from other countries.
Other hon. Members have mentioned Welsh film making, and we hope that soon a film about Tower colliery will be made for international distribution. I hope that that will bring opportunities for people in Cynon Valley. Filming has already started, and I am sure that mining communities in many other parts of the world will be able to identify with the film. Many people were interested in the struggle to keep Tower going, especially in France and Belgium, and that was important to us at the time.
My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, North (Julie Morgan) mentioned the Wales Nicaragua Solidarity Campaign, and similar organisations exist for Cuba, Lesotho and other countries. The group Christians against Torture is mainly made up of church and chapel people in Wales and it is extremely active. One issue that it has focused on is the Turkish Kurdish Members of Parliament who were imprisoned eight years ago. People in Wales have kept up links with those Members of Parliament, and last Easter when I visited Leyla Zana in prison in Ankara she showed me a letter from some of the members of that group in Cardiff. Throughout the time she has been in prison she has corresponded with them and they played a role in getting her husband out of prison. Indeed, he visited Cardiff a few years ago to thank people for their efforts on his behalf.
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I mention that issue because, as Members of Parliament, we should be concerned about Members of Parliament in other countries who cannot fulfil their mandates, perhaps because they have been sent to prison unfairly.
Mr. Llwyd: I know of the hon. Lady's great interest in the problems of the Kurds and similar situations worldwide. She may be interested to learn that last year a rally was held in Bala against the Ilisu dam, and it was well attended by Kurdish people. I am pleased to say that the proposal for the dam has now been shelved.
Ann Clwyd: I played a role in getting that project shelved, so I have taken an interest in it. The Kurdish-Welsh link is an interesting one. Many Kurds were trained in Cardiff, Bangor or Swansea, or at the North Wales institute, and they have built up links with the Welsh. I mention the four Turkish Kurdish MPs because the European Court of Human Rights ruled last year that the legal proceedings against them—Leyla Zana, Hatip Dicle, Selim Sadak and Orhan Dogan—were unfair and called for compensation and damages to be paid to them. Despite all our efforts, they remain in prison. That is an absolute scandal, and we should put more pressure on the Turkish authorities to release them.
The four MPs were imprisoned for the peaceful expression of their beliefs. Leyla Zana was imprisoned because, as she took the oath in the Turkish Parliament, she wore the traditional Kurdish colours of red, yellow and green in her headband. Her colleagues wore handkerchiefs in their pockets in the same colours. As she took her oath, there were cries of "Separatist", "Traitor", "Arrest her" and even "Hang her".
The Turks have much to learn from us in Wales on how two linguistic communities can live side by side in harmony, using both languages and with television channels and radio stations for both. Welsh language broadcasting no longer causes much trouble, in the days of satellite television which gives people a choice. We are an example of how to achieve the harmony that could also be achieved in Turkey. That country is an applicant for membership of the EU, but a Turkish truck driver has recently been sentenced to three years in prison for listening to a cassette of Kurdish music. Such persecution should not be tolerated without protest by those of us in the EU, especially in Wales, where we know that it is possible to co-exist and use both languages.
I know that many people in Wales take a great interest in the fate of Leyla Zana. When I visited her last year, I was told that I could not take her any letters, but I took her a birthday card in Welsh which the prison authorities allowed through. She was pleased to receive the card because it was her birthday on the day that I visited her. She should not be in prison and the Turks should either give her a fresh trial or release her.
Some two weeks ago I visited Jenin, where I met a member of the International Committee of the Red Cross. He was based in Geneva, but he came from Bangor. For three days, he had been waiting at the entrance of the refugee camp in Jenin, hoping to be allowed in to use his skills. He was not able to do so, because the Israelis prevented international organisations, including the ICRC, from gaining access to the camp and its civilian inhabitants.

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It is an outrage that the United Nations has been refused permission to send a committee of investigation into Jenin, where we suspect that many violations of humanitarian law took place. It undermines the authority of the UN and the Secretary-General. Our Foreign Secretary and Prime Minister have tried hard behind the scenes and the Security Council will meet yet again to decide on a resolution.
Wales has always played an important role in the world, and will continue to do so.
3.38 pm
Mr. Elfyn Llwyd: I intended to concentrate my remarks on tourism, but I realised that the hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) had decided likewise. I must have made the wrong decision.
Mr. Martyn Jones: Again.
Mr. I,Iwyd: Indeed. However, I shall speak mostly about tourism so I wish to declare an interest. My daughter, Catrin, is a professional actress and she appears in the television advert for the Wales Tourist Board, which several hon. Members have mentioned. As a family, we are doing our bit. However, I shall be brief and I shall not take half as much time as some other hon. Members, because I know that others wish to speak.
The report that we are discussing refers to three main areas—the marketing of Wales as a destination for tourism, Welsh representation in governance at UK and EU level, and the marketing of Welsh trading interests in creative industries.
The report is a good one. The responses from the Assembly and the Government are heartening in parts, although disappointing here and there. We must see how the process develops. As the Secretary of State said, we are in the immediate post-devolution period. We are all trying to see how everything fits in. Clearly, it behoves us to work together to increase Wales's potential as a tourist destination. I am sure that that is why we are here today.
It is interesting to compare the responses. The Assembly seems to agree with the report's conclusion that more needs to be done to promote Wales, whereas the UK Government seem more satisfied with the present situation. Certain witnesses from the British Tourist Authority thought that the appropriate number of visitors to Wales could be calculated as a proportion of its population. That is a bizarre idea.
I say this with great respect to the BTA, but it is easy to sell holidays based in London, Stratford and Edinburgh. The hon. Member for Clwyd, South (Mr. Jones), the Chairman of the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs, has already made that point. Wales is fitted in almost as, "By the way, how about a few days in Wales?" It is obvious that people who have been up to Edinburgh and back down to London do not want to cross into Wales. A conflict of interest is therefore bound to exist.
However, I am not whingeing. The English Tourism Council is entitled to market England abroad by itself, and through the BTA. Wales is therefore placed at a bit of a disadvantage. The report tries to tackle such matters. I am
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sure that the Government will address them in due course. given the huge importance of tourism to the Welsh economy. It is worth about £2 billion annually, and accounts for between 7 and 9 per cent. of Wales's gross domestic product. The relative contribution of tourism in many coastal areas, and some rural ones, is even higher. Tourism supports about 25,000 jobs directly in rural Wales, or about 10 per cent. of the work force. It supports many more jobs indirectly, and is Wales's largest industry.
In its response, the Assembly agrees that Wales's profile is too low. It outlines what it has done to raise it, and some good progress has been made. For example, Wales is due to host some high-profile events, with the Ryder cup golf tournament being held there in 2008. The FA cup final is being held in Cardiff on Saturday—I shall be there to do my bit, although I am not sure yet which team to support—and we must not forget the rugby world cup tournament. Rugby is a painful subject just now in Wales, so I shall not refer to it further today.
The Secretary of State spoke about liaison with the motor regions of Europe. High-profile visits have been made recently to the National Assembly for Wales by the Taoiseach, President Pujol of Catalonia, and the vice-premier of China. However, many of Wales's key overseas markets remain unaware of the realities of foot and mouth, either through misinformation or misunderstanding.
Many people in the US—and I say this with respect—think that one cannot eat meat safely in Wales or the rest of the UK because of foot and mouth. That is clearly nonsense, but I regret to say that that impression is still abroad. In addition, the horrific events of 11 September have had a significant impact on Wales's largest tourism market.
I am glad to say that the budget for the WTB for 2001–02 rose by 30 per cent. The total is still a quarter of that for the tourist board in the Irish Republic, but we are getting there: we cannot expect to complete the journey overnight.
The WTB is due to receive objective 1 money for a couple of projects. Reference has been made to the creation of Cymru'n Creu, a body to co-ordinate raising Wales's profile abroad. The Assembly states that it
"looks forward to strengthening further its links with UK Government Departments, and bodies"
to further the aims of tourism.
When the Under-Secretary of State for Wales winds up the debate, I hope that he will say what is happening with Cymru'n Creu, and what further developments there have been. If he cannot do so today, I hope that he will write to me.
A sub-committee has been established in the National Assembly which is called "Wales in the World." Not much has been heard of it so far, and I should be grateful if the Under Secretary told us what he knows about it. The debate is important, and the committee has a role to play in keeping it going. As the hon. Member for Ribble Valley said, it is to be hoped that the papers for today will not be packed away and forgotten about. I see no reason why Members of Parliament should not try to assist the committee by feeding it information.
The Government's response to the report does not accept that Wales has a lower profile than other European countries or regions of similar size. That is in sharp

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contrast to the Assembly's view. The Government say that 4 per cent. of overseas visitors to the UK visit Wales. Given that Wales's population accounts for 5 per cent. of the UK total, the report says that the number of visitors is not bad.
I fail to see the logic of that assertion, which makes no sense at all. What is the population of Stratford-on-Avon? What percentage of all visitors go there? The Government's response is based on a strange assumption.
The main point is that there is a need to relaunch a rural tourism strategy. We must not allow the current malaise in rural areas, which stems from the knock-on problems from foot and mouth, to persist. Very often, the agricultural community and the tourist sector are inextricably linked. Some people are therefore liable to have suffered a double whammy: those who have tried to diversify into tourism have been hit not once, but twice.
Farm-based tourism has been hit, but it remains a growth area. It needs to be developed. The events of the past couple of years should not deter us from the task—and the challenge—of ensuring that farm-based tourism in Wales is brought up to speed. However, that has to be done fairly swiftly, as we are on the verge of the reform of the common agricultural policy.
Wales could also be well placed to profit from green tourism. Diversification will make it possible for such tourism to expand in Wales. We need to make sure that Wales makes full use of its great natural assets.
I take issue with the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik), who referred to the number of acres in Wales devoted to farming. Farmers are the custodians of the landscape. If their custodianship were not careful, no part of rural Wales would be considered a tourist attraction. However, if I misunderstood him, I should be happy to allow him to intervene.
Lembit Öpik: For the sake of the record, I completely agree with the hon. Gentleman. My point was simply that, although tourism may not account for a great proportion of Wales's GDP, farmers are the guardians of the overwhelming majority of the surface area that people come to visit. I am grateful to him for letting me clarify that.
Mr. Llwyd: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, and I accept what he says.
I also welcome the new walking campaign initiative. There are great walks all over Wales, and we need to look also at the concept of themed holidays. We have excellent facilities for fishing, golf and almost any activity that one could name. We need to make sure that people out there know that, as the story has not been told clearly enough hitherto.
Wales has a low share of tourism, due in part to the lack of facilities, but more to the fact that the country is not being sold as well as it should be abroad. That message comes over fairly clearly in the report.
Mrs. Betty Williams: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that if the Snowdonia Green Key scheme had gone ahead as intended, that would have been yet another kick in the teeth for tourism in north-west Wales?
Mr. Llwyd: I oppose that scheme. Places such as Betws-y-Coed and Llanrwst have been told that there will
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be gateway places, where people will have to park and take buses. There is no room to park as it is—it is absolutely ridiculous. We have heard fantasy figures about 75 jobs being created, but heaven only knows where those jobs will come from. There must be a rethink. I agree that there should be a regular bus service, but it must be voluntary. People should not be forced off at places that have no facilities. I agree entirely with the hon. Lady.
We could make more of the centre for alternative technology at Machynlleth, which is in the constituency of the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik), and I know that he is a regular visitor. It is a landmark development and has been for many years. It is at the cutting edge of environmental developments and could be linked to green tourism.
The Government's response also mentioned some welcome initiatives. The British Tourist Authority and the Wales Tourist Board organised a visit to Wales of trade and media leaders. Mr. Glyn Davies of the American embassy accepted an invitation at short notice to come up to Portmeirion to give an extra boost to tourism in Wales and to make it plain to his friends in America and beyond that the food is perfectly safe and that they are missing out. We all owe him a vote of thanks for that. We should also thank the ambassador who arranged the I March celebration at his residence. It was an astounding success and a very welcome initiative, which I hope will be repeated next year. I am not exactly singing for my supper, but I must say that it was rather good.
The report is concerned that the overall marketing of the United Kingdom fails to market the worth of the different countries within it. Predictably, the BTA and the British Council say that Wales has its fair share, but that is not the case and we need to look at the structures again.
Adam Price: My hon. Friend will he aware that cultural tourism is a growth area worldwide. Does he agree that, as that trend continues, the cultural and linguistic distinctiveness of Wales will give us an edge? Should we not, therefore, take steps to encourage greater bilingualism and ensure that a greater proportion of Welsh speakers work in the hospitality sector in all parts of Wales?
Mr. Llwyd: I agree entirely. We should no longer think of tourism as a Cinderella industry—it is not. Tourism can be very well paid. Our colleagues in Ireland, for example, look upon it as another respectable industry, not badly paid and very often year-round. We can develop our industry, and our cultural differences can play a part.
In 1996, S4C conducted a survey that showed that 62 per cent. of people from outside Wales thought that Wales was simply sheep and coal mines—a strange and not very positive image. Our cousins in Scotland and Ireland are marketing their industries expertly.
The recent campaign by the Wales Tourist Board is welcome, and not simply because it keeps my daughter in work. The big country campaign captures the "bigness" of spirit and emotion that is inspired by the Welsh people and our fabulous landscape.
The hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) has been instrumental in inviting people who are considering making a film about the Arthurian legend in north Wales,

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and all credit to him for that. We could develop that further, because we have a distinct history that could be marketed.
We need to concentrate on the transport problems that are holding Wales back, although we must not talk Wales down in doing so. I agree that developing regional airports would be a useful measure.
The future of our £2 billion tourist industry depends to a large extent on nurturing a highly skilled work force to provide the high-quality holiday experience that is expected and demanded—rightly—by our discerning visitors. We need to come up to speed—very often we do, as we have excellent facilities.
The tourism training forum, a new independent body set up by the Wales Tourist Board, is doing a good job. Education and Learning in Wales is assisting, as is the National Assembly for Wales. However, according to the Welsh Economic Review, published yesterday, the National Assembly should play a more pivotal role in marketing Wales, extending to bringing the likes of the Wales Tourist Board and Welsh business together to market Wales fully on the back of events such as the Ryder cup and the Network Q rally.
The Government response points out that the Wales Office should do as much as it can to represent Wales abroad and to give a good view of it. Not long ago, the Secretary of State made a speech in Bruges, in which he denigrated nationalists and said:
"many nationalists would counter that theirs is a civic and inclusive nationalism. But I have to say that I regard their desire to put an international frontier between England and Wales as justifiable only in terms that would satisfy the faith and language nationalists."
The right hon. Gentleman went on to say that he did not regard English people as foreigners in Wales, thereby insinuating that English people were often not made to feel welcome in Wales. That is not part of our thinking—it never has been and never will be. Ministers should talk up Wales when they go abroad, not pick off their political opponents and give the wrong impression of Wales.
The Government response highlighted the important role of the Wales Office in representing Wales abroad. A parliamentary question answered on 17 April showed that, between them, the Secretary of State and the Under-Secretary of State for Wales have undertaken only one trade mission since July 1999—the ill-fated and now fabled train ride to the Czech Republic. One trade mission in 22 months does not represent a high profile, I regret to say.
Chris Ruane: The hon. Gentleman criticises my right hon. Friend for saying in his speech in Bruges that the Welsh nationalists have an anti-English feeling. Is he aware that Dafydd Elis-Thomas, the Presiding Officer of the National Assembly for Wales, shares that view? He admitted that there is an anti-English feeling within Welsh language nationalism that risked deepening tensions between Welsh speakers and non-Welsh speakers.
Mr. Llwyd: I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman knows this, but I have been singled out for criticism by those very people, so I am not really qualified to say anything. They are more prejudiced against me than
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against the hon. Gentleman, so I do not know where that leaves us. However, I was pleased to see the hon. Gentleman's colleague pass him that crib note.
We in Wales need to attract further investment in the knowledge-based industries. We are falling behind; we need more liaison with universities. The importance of inward investment in this sector cannot be overestimated.
Some 50 major Japanese companies currently operate in Wales. They recognise what Wales has to offer—a high standard of living, a loyal and adaptable work force and a clean, healthy and beautiful environment. Here comes the nasty bit—on Tuesday evening the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. David) criticised Plaid Cymru Members for not being in the Chamber for the Finance Bill debate. All four Members of Plaid Cymru spoke in the Budget debate proper or in the Welsh Grand Committee debate on the Budget. We were represented in the Finance Bill debate by my hon. Friend the Member for Angus (Mr. Weir), a member of the Scottish National party.
The hon. Member for Caerphilly is a new Member, so he probably does not understand: we are a joint grouping, and we were represented that evening by my hon. Friend the Member for Angus. Furthermore, my hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion (Mr. Thomas) popped in and out of the debate regularly. Neither the hon. Member for Caerphilly nor one single member of the Welsh parliamentary Labour party bothered to turn up to the debate on UK-Japanese relations on 11 April in Westminster Hall, despite many Labour Members having important Japanese concerns in their constituency. Of course, it was a Thursday—time to skive off. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."]
Mr. David rose—
Mr. Llwyd: Let me finish what I am saying. The hon. Gentleman can have inclusive politics—allegedly the flavour of the month in Cardiff—or he can pick a fight. He can choose what he wants, but he should not lead with his chin.
Mr. David: I reiterate the point that I made in the debate on the Finance Bill. First, not one Welsh nationalist Member set foot in this Chamber for any length of time. Some of them might have poked their heads around the door to see what was happening, but they made no contribution. Secondly, it is an utter disgrace when a member of the Scottish National party has to speak on behalf of Plaid Cymru. Those two parties might have a cosy relationship, but that has no credibility with the people of Wales.
Mr. Llwyd: When the hon. Gentleman has been here long enough and begins to learn a little of our practice, he will find out that only one of my hon. Friends was entitled to speak, and my hon. Friend the Member for Angus spoke that evening. As for the hon. Gentleman's record, he went home instead of taking part in that debate on Japan, so he should stop digging when he is in a hole.
Mr. David rose—
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): Order. The hon. Gentleman has inished his speech.
4 pm
Mr. Martin Caton: I am a member of the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs, which undertook this inquiry. One of the most illuminating pieces of evidence that we considered was the report, which has already been mentioned by at least two hon. Members, on the British Council's survey of the attitudes of young professionals and postgraduate students in some 28 countries throughout the world. The survey was conducted by MORI in 1999 and 2000, and published under the title "Through Other Eyes".
As one assumes that the people surveyed—well-educated men and women aged between 24 and 35, with above-average incomes and excellent prospects—will be among the next generation of movers and shakers on the international scene, their attitudes towards Wales and the United Kingdom generally should be of more than passing interest.
For the United Kingdom as a whole, the message was mixed. There was generally a high opinion of our higher education provision, our businesses and our institutions, including our democratic institutions. However, we scored low, in their perception, for creativity and innovation. We did particularly badly under the heading "People and society", as there was a widespread view that we are still deeply divided by class and that we are sometimes racially intolerant and unwelcoming to foreigners.
Before dealing with the attitudes towards Wales, it is important to recognise that we in Wales have our part to play in building on the positive aspects of the perception of the United Kingdom and overcoming or correcting the negative image of the United Kingdom that some people identified.
When those in our young, upwardly mobile survey group were asked about the images that best summed up Wales for them, 20 per cent. identified Diana, Princess of Wales; 13 per cent. identified Charles, Prince of Wales; and 8 per cent. identified the royal family generally. They then listed castles, rugby and beautiful landscapes in that order, and all with less than 7 per cent.
To be fair, the associations with the other nations of the United Kingdom were almost equally limited and distorting. With Scotland, the No. 1 icon was kilts, followed by whisky, bagpipes, the highlands and cold weather.
In 1999 and 2000, when young go-getters from around the world were asked what they associated with Northern Ireland, 34 per cent. replied violence and religious conflict, followed by the IRA and then the scenery. Perhaps that has begun to change since then. England was represented by the Queen, football, London, the Houses of Parliament, Oxbridge education and bad weather in that order.
Perhaps Wales does not come out much worse than anyone else in that icon association game, although I am not sure that the Welsh contemporaries of those in the international survey group would agree with them in putting the royal family in the top three spots, even in this jubilee year. That may tie in with a more revealing figure: 16 per cent. of those intelligent and successful young people replied that they did not associate anything with Wales. I suspect that that figure would have been even higher if it had not been for the tragic loss of Princess Diana and the fact that the name "Wales" had appeared a great deal in the media in the two years before the survey.
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When asked the same question, the figure was only 3 per cent. for England, 6 per cent. for Scotland and 10 per cent. for Northern Ireland. Clearly, Wales projects by far the least distinct image internationally of any of the countries of the United Kingdom. That is reinforced by the response to the question, "What countries go to make up the UK?" As has already been said, 85 per cent. identified England; 80 per cent., Scotland; 72 per cent., Northern Ireland; and just 67 per cent., Wales.
So we in Wales have an identity problem in the perception of the world. Of course, the significance of that can be easily exaggerated. We are a small nation that is part of a bigger state. We cannot expect everyone to know about us or to be aware of all our qualities. Let us face it, we would have a much bigger long-term problem if we somehow managed to create a fantastic image of Wales, but the quality—the substance, as opposed to the spin—did not come anywhere near matching it. Our challenge is to get the message across and tell people just how good Wales is and how much it has to offer, but we have not yet managed to do that well enough in some ways. That is true in several different, but related ways.
In our report, we broke the subject of Wales in the world into three broad categories: trade and investment, tourism and culture, and language and sport. Those are sensible subdivisions in which to address the practical issues that we considered in our inquiry, but the boundary lines are nowhere near as distinct, if they exist at all, when considering the more nebulous concepts of image, identification and recognition.
Put at its most obvious, we all know of investment decisions in Wales that have been influenced by positive experiences that the decision makers have had in their higher education, on holidays, attending conferences or through some cultural association. Equally, we all know of the impact—positive and negative—on image that the use of locations in major international films can have. Whatever people thought of the film "Lord of the Rings: the Fellowship of the Ring", I have not met many who did not admit that it had increased their desire to visit New Zealand.
Establishing and marketing the right sort of consistent image can be valuable across a range of economic activities. I was going to talk about Scotland and Ireland, but they have been dealt with quite well by other hon. Members and the time is getting on.
Adam Price: The hon. Gentleman has just mentioned Scotland and Ireland in passing, but the hon. Member for Clwyd, South (Mr. Jones) mentioned the fact that there is now greater diplomatic representation in Edinburgh and Belfast. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that possibly one of the reasons for that greater representation is the fact the Scottish Parliament and the Northern Ireland Assembly have law-making powers?
Mr. Caton: That is not yet a significant factor, but it may well come to that. Scotland and Ireland have moved away from a caricature image in people's minds towards a much more accurate and three-dimensional image because of various economic and cultural developments in both those countries. That is happening in Wales as well, but we are a little behind.
Chris Ruane: Is my hon. Friend aware that the American consulates in Belfast and Edinburgh have not

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just been established but have existed for more than 100 years? Is he also aware that the consulate in Wales was withdrawn in 1965—years before devolution?
Mr. Caton: Yes, I am aware of that. Like my hon. Friend and the other members of the Select Committee, I know that we need to do all we can to get those consulate and international representatives into Cardiff. When we met the Irish consul general, he said how important the type of networking that is provided by the fact he is in Cardiff is for the Republic of Ireland and for Wales. We need to work on that.
I should like quickly to consider the inward investment and trade aspect of our inquiry. Naturally, we gave most of our attention to the role of Government—especially the UK Government—and agencies in promoting those twin objectives. However, it is important to remember that the most important component in getting foreign business to locate in Wales or in selling what we produce in Wales is not how we are promoted by the Government at any level, but the quality of what we offer and how well it fits what the investor or the customer wants.
For inward investment, the communications and sourcing materials and components, and the quality of education, training and the environment are far more significant than how good the WDA video was or how nice the Foreign and Commonwealth Office people were. Some investors, who have made a real contribution to our economic development in Wales, have become aware of what we have to offer through channels other than those offered by the Government at any level. I think in particular of the value of the higher education sector. Our universities and colleges can be a magnet for high-quality, high-tech, cutting-edge employment in Wales. This was brought home to me twice in the last few months, once in south Wales and once in north Wales.
The first occasion was the opening of the Technium centre on the docks in Swansea, which is a joint project involving the university, the Welsh Development Agency and the council, and which is the next stage on from the college's innovation centre. It is a base for developing the business and the technology for a whole new range of products. It is exciting, not least because it brings together established, successful and, sometimes, foreign companies with a new generation of Welsh entrepreneurs. That initiative needs to be rolled out across the whole of Wales to tie in to our existing educational and research network.
In north Wales, just a few weeks ago, the Welsh Affairs Committee was taking evidence for our current inquiry into broadband cabling in Wales. There was a lot of criticism of and concern about the adequacy of broadband provision and the comparative costs in north-west Wales in particular. Not unreasonably, therefore, we asked one company involved in advanced research and development why it had decided to locate in Bangor when it knew the disadvantages. It immediately replied, "Because of the university." It went on to explain the partnership that it had developed with the relevant department in the university, which was mutually beneficial. The quality of the graduates and postgraduates coming out of that department was even more important, however, and it had offered employment to some of them.
I am sure that maintaining and improving the excellence of our higher education and research institutions will be more and more important in attracting
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investment and developing new Welsh products. In fact, that can play a valuable part in improving Wales's identity and image in the world. One of the things that those young people whom the British Council surveyed admired about the UK was our educational institutions. The only colleges that they mentioned, however, were Oxford, Cambridge and the London School of Economics. Welsh universities, which are already world leaders in many areas, need to be recognised for a more general level of excellence.
I was going to talk about tourism, but that has been covered well in the debate. As many other Members wish to speak, I shall conclude.
4.12 pm
Mr. Mark Prisk: I commend the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Caton) not least for identifying the importance of perceptions. We of all people should understand that, in the information age, perception is often more important than reality. The same applies when one is trying to promote a country, a nation or a city. I therefore also want to pick up the theme that he began—trade and investment—and to consider the position of Wales in the economic world.
The Select Committee, of which I am now a member—I was not a member when it prepared the report—received a wide variety of evidence about the characteristics of the Welsh economy. Those characteristics represent both strengths and weaknesses. Among comparative strengths, the most important items were a very skilled work force who have high productivity, and, in tandem with that, good industrial relations and few strikes. In addition, Wales has now developed centres of excellence in several different business sectors—the one that comes to mind is the information technology and telecommunications sector. Since 1990, £3 billion has come to Wales, involving 200 companies, in that sector alone. People in Wales can take considerable pride in that.
In terms of weaknesses—there must be two sides to any argument—one of the worries highlighted in the report is the relatively low level of research and development investment in Wales. Sometimes, that can be a symptom of inadequate innovation. Secondly, there seemed to be low levels of entrepreneurial activity.
Chris Ruane: The hon. Gentleman has a point—there has been a lack of research capabilities in Wales in the past. Is he aware, however, of a £10 million project, the Opto Electronic Incubation and Research Centre, which will be based in my constituency in north Wales? It is tied in to Aberystwyth university, Bangor university and the North East Wales institute of higher education. I hope that it will fill that gap in my part of north Wales.
Mr. Prisk: The hon. Gentleman brings good news to the House, which I am more than happy to support. It is a good example. We must hope, however, that it is not merely an example in isolation, and that there are more projects of that nature. I suspect that there will be many more.
Huw Irranca-Davies rose—
Mr. Prisk: As the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) is an even newer Member than me, I shall generously give way again.
Huw Irranca-Davies: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his courtesy. The centre to which my hon. Friend the

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Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) referred is not an isolated example. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would also welcome the Technium centre in Swansea.
Mr. Prisk: I am always happy to allow an advertising intermission. I shall now resume my speech.
The third aspect of the evidence to the Committee that worried me was the relatively low profile of Wales in the business world. The hon. Member for Gower referred to that. There was another allied weakness: an over- reliance, which is perhaps historical, on low-value products. That is not totally true—as Labour Members have demonstrated, there are always good examples to bring to the fore—and Ford's investment in the Premier Automotive Group in Bridgend is an encouraging sign that what might have been thought, historically, to be lower-value manufacturing products can be turned into higher-value products. That is a welcome trend.
In considering strengths and weaknesses, the Select Committee has recognised that the Welsh economy is undergoing a long-term fundamental transformation from an economy based on primary and manufacturing industry into a genuinely mixed economy. That transformation is, of course, still under way. If I may, I shall therefore focus on two aspects of the report's findings—inward investment and indigenous businesses.
The Welsh Development Agency has an excellent record on inward investment. Although the Welsh population is approximately only 5 per cent. of the United Kingdom population, inward investment in Wales throughout the 1980s and 1990s was pro rata far higher. In 1991, inward investment was 19 per cent. and, even last year, despite a considerable fall, it was 11 per cent. of total UK inward investment. That is still double the inward investment that we might expect were we to relate it to the population size of Wales. That is tremendous testimony to the work of the Welsh Development Agency and other Government agencies in the late 1980s and the 1990s.
Equally, we should not underestimate the value of signature projects such as the development of the Millennium stadium in Cardiff to which hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik), who is not here at present, referred. These projects help to attract international attention and to change perceptions—as the hon. Member for Gower said—about the attractiveness of a city and its qualities as a business location. That is why I was happy to lend my support to Cardiff's bid to be European city of culture in the future. It was encouraging that that was supported across the House.
As the Secretary of State highlighted when he opened the debate, inward investment from international business has helped the Welsh economy change and has provided much-needed jobs. As he also accepted, however, it is not a panacea. In some ways, inward investment raises as many questions as it answers. For example, is there not a danger of merely replacing one big company with another, thus perpetuating a community's dependency on one employer? Can we rely on footloose multinationals to create jobs, given their collective record? Furthermore, is it not a fairly expensive way of creating jobs?
Those questions lead to a realisation that inward investment on its own will not produce the long-term structural changes to the economy that are so important. To do that, we need to address the needs of indigenous
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businesses, large and small. The Select Committee's report found that, by comparison with England and other European Union countries, entrepreneurship in Wales, sadly, lags behind: a low number of start-ups; poor levels of research and development, despite some good examples; a lack of key marketing skills; and too few Welsh small businesses engaged in international trade. Those are all symptoms of what I might term an entrepreneurial deficit.
The Select Committee's report identified objective 1 status and funding as offering perhaps the greatest hope of reversing that deficit. Although I am not opposed to objective 1 and similar projects, as a former small business man, I am sceptical about the genuine quality and opportunity that top-down government schemes offer. There is certainly much activity and many schemes, initiatives and funds. However, to date, the results do not bode well. What is lacking is a clear understanding of why people become their own boss—their motives and aspirations. We therefore need to be realistic about the environment in which enterprise operates in Wales.
First, many sole traders and husband—and—wife partnerships have no wish to grow. They run the local shop or pub, and they want simply to be independent and make their own way in the world. The prospect of radical growth and driving into new markets—together with all the bureaucracy that inevitably comes with that—holds little appeal for them. Given that many small businesses and self-employed firms already spend up to four working days a month filling in Government forms, is it any wonder that they are hesitant to embrace the ideology of growth?
Secondly, many Welsh and Cornish communities—I say this as a Cornishman—are naturally small and self-contained, and others may have known only one large employer throughout the history of the community. The employer might have been a mine or a steelworks, and that is how it has always been. The danger is that there is no entrepreneurial role model in those communities and no culture of making it by oneself. That is why I said that there is a sense in which inward investment does not necessarily tackle the root of the problem. The danger is that it will merely reinforce the problem. We move from one steelworks in a town to one call centre. I cite the example of call centres because of the sad news of the job losses at Pembroke dock. In some ways, that underlines the danger of relying simply on inward investment.
The third characteristic that shapes the environment for enterprise is the fact that, in the communities that have relied on the jobs of one employer, the people who want to get on often move on. The danger is that they will move to the bright lights of Cardiff or London. Therefore, the single most important thing that any Government can do to focus on changing the culture is to raise people's aspirations.
I would like to consider several practical ways in which we can make a difference in Wales and raise people's aspirations. First, in education, the emphasis has been on teaching business and enterprise in schools. That is fine, because teaching has its role. However, the real need is not to instruct but to inspire. How do we do that? A good example—I had the privilege of being part of it in the past—is the Prince's Trust, which was founded by the Prince of Wales. The trust supports budding entrepreneurs, and many Members will be familiar with its work. At the heart of its work is the role of the mentor.

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I was self-employed and I had the opportunity to help other youngsters to come through the process and get involved in becoming their own boss. It is important to provide hands-on experience or to act as a role model. Such a direct approach is highly successful.
The other aspect of the issue is to educate not just youngsters but members of the public sector. That means trying to help civil servants, who may not have direct experience of enterprise, to understand the practical realities of running a small or large business. In particular, the Industry and Parliament Trust does wonderful work to help civil servants and big business to work together. I am also aware that a fellowship for small businesses enables parliamentarians to gain experience. However, we need to go a step further. In Cardiff and Whitehall, we need to consider extending the scheme so that civil servants and small businesses can gain experience from one another. I do not know whether the new head of the civil service will embrace that suggestion, but the noises that he has made so far are encouraging.
Another practical suggestion that I wish to make relates to the removal of barriers to growth and enterprise, and I will give three brief examples. First, the report refers specifically to objective 1, and the Committee is engaged in further discussion of how that is working. However, the report shows that the process is too slow and that many enterprises find it too time consuming. The barriers are too high and the worry is that the administrative process is reactive and not proactive. We need change in that regard.
The second barrier that concerns people is the discrimination in the United Kingdom and Wales against the self-employed. We need to remove such discrimination in a legal and taxation sense and then go on to consider how we can end the discrimination against the self-employed when it comes to bank loans and mortgages. Both sides of the House can engage in that agenda.
The third barrier relates to regulations. Although I am sure that Labour Members would be only too thrilled to hear me wax lyrical on the subject at length, I will merely say that last year 4,642 new regulations were introduced. For many small business men—we return to the question of perception—that is 4,642 new reasons why they do not want to grow the business, take on a new employee or, for that matter, come into business at all.
Investing and doing business in Wales has much to commend it. A skilled and productive work force lie at the heart of Welsh competitiveness in what is an increasingly mobile and cost-conscious world economy. However, the root problem of changing the entrepreneurial culture in both towns and villages is not being addressed fully by the Government or by the Assembly's policies and schemes. Drawing in inward investors and multinationals has its place but, in the end, the future of the Welsh economy and enterprise lies in the hands of the Welsh people. They have raised their skills and their productivity; we now need to help them to raise their aspirations to be their best.
4.27 pm
Chris Ruane: As many Members have said, this is an important debate. We have talked about the Welsh diaspora, and the first Welsh person to
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start it was Prince Madoc in 1170. He discovered America 300 years before Columbus and 200 years before St. Brendan of Ireland.
Wales has a proud tradition in America. When I visited the deputy ambassador, Glyn Davies, two years ago to discuss Wales in America, he pointed out to me a brass plaque that depicted the declaration of independence. He went through the names of every one of those who signed the declaration. One third of them were Welsh. We have a proud tradition in north America. However, perhaps we should be less proud of the fact that five of the top 10 names for black people in America are Welsh names—Lewis, Williams, Jones and so on. That may be because the Welsh were the first colonists out there and owned slaves.
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said that hardly a family in Wales does not have a connection in America, and that applies to my family. My sister Maureen Ellis left Wales 24 years ago; my sister Kathy Wazera left for America 22 years ago; and my sister Amy Kelly went to America 12 years ago.
Mr. Evans: When is the hon. Gentleman going?
Chris Ruane: I am staying put.
Indeed, 4 million Americans claim Welsh heritage. The American census farm contains a Welsh tick box, which will please Conservative Members. Some 4 million people ticked that box to say that they were of Welsh descent.
Kevin Brennan: Is my hon. Friend aware of two other interesting points about names in America? First, to emphasise what he said about the names of black Americans, the greatest long jump final of all time was between Mike Powell, Carl Lewis and Larry Meyrick. Secondly, a recent book indicates that America is probably named after a Welsh merchant who lived near Bristol called Ameurig.
Chris Ruane: We should not forget to include Jesse Owens on that proud list of black Americans with Welsh names.
There are 300 St. David's societies around the world. I was given a list of those five years ago and it was already out of date then. When I saw the list, I thought what a fantastic network to use to promote Welsh culture, investment, exports, tourism and academia. Indeed, we have made great gains in promoting Wales around the world and attracting investment into Wales. We have had significant successes—the 143 American companies that have invested in Wales are proof of that. Between 1983 and 2000, there was £5 billion of American investment in Wales, which created 75,000 jobs.
The Welsh Development Agency is probably the most successful development agency in the world. Twenty years ago, there were only three development agencies in Tokyo, one of which was the WDA. We have made good use of our consulates, increasingly so since devolution. Last summer, I travelled at my own expense to the Gymanfa Ganu in San Jose and spent an evening at the British consulate in San Francisco, where 150 people of Welsh extraction, including Welsh business people, mingled together, networking to strengthen the bonds between Wales and America.

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However, we need to build on our successes. For relatively little money, with some organisational skills and through recognition and co-operation, we could help to expand Wales's influence around the world. Wales International produces an excellent publication that goes back 50 years called "Yr Enfys"—"The Rainbow". "Yr Enfys" is about to collapse for the sake of £5,000 per annum. Wales International contributed to the Welsh Affairs Committee when it looked into the position of Wales in the world. It is a fantastic organisation, whose aims are:
"To forge close and abiding world-wide links between Wales and the people of Welsh descent and friends of the language, culture and traditions of Wales … To promote present-day Wales, its work and culture outside Wales and to encourage and assist in the establishing of Welsh Societies outside Wales wherever this is possible. Many Societies Worldwide are already affiliated to the movement … To provide a meeting place every year at the Royal National Eisteddfod of Wales for its members and its friends from all over the world … To develop and maintain a register/database of worldwide Welsh contacts for individuals, cultural organisations and public bodies."
It is possible for organisations such as Wales International to fold for the sake of £5,000.
The Gymanfa Ganu is a fantastic celebration of Welshness across the whole of north America. Last year, it was held in San Jose and more than 2,000 people of Welsh extraction attended. Rather than finance, that great organisation requires recognition and an awareness among the political and cultural classes within Wales of what it does. I travelled with my family, and Rhodri Morgan and his wife, my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, North (Julie Morgan), also attended. We were the only three political representatives there.
Mr. Prisk: Why does the hon. Gentleman think that, historically, Irish communities have got into the political culture of the countries that they have moved to, but Welsh communities have not been so successful?
Chris Ruane: Ruane is an Irish name from Galway on the west coast. I am aware of the great strides that the Irish people have taken in developing their international network.
I would urge all hon. Members to visit the Gymanfa Ganu at least once. I think that it takes place in Ontario this year. It deserves our political support and is a great networking opportunity for Welsh businesses, Welsh culture and Welsh academia.
Numerous hon. Members have pointed out that, when the Welsh Affairs Committee visited America to look into social exclusion, we were contacted by the Welsh North American Chamber of Commerce. The group comprises about 100 eminent business people who are spread across north America. Some of them are millionaires and multi-millionaires, and they provide a valuable Welsh network. Most of them are of Welsh extraction. The group is headed by David Williams, who has become a good friend of mine in the past couple of years. It thinks that it has been ignored by the WDA and the Wales Tourist Board, and instead of co-operation, there was confrontation. It is a valuable asset in America. Bridges have been built, but we still need more co-operation between independent Welsh organisations in America.
Adam Price: The hon. Gentleman has strongly made the point about the economic advantages of the Welsh
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diaspora several times. To pick up on something that the hon. Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr. Prisk) said, it is true that Welsh business people outside Wales have been tremendously successful, not least in America. I can think of JP Morgan, Jack Daniel and, more recently, the former head of CBS, who is of Welsh extraction.
Chris Ruane: Absolutely; I believe that the former head of CBS was at the Gymanfa Ganu last year. I agree with the hon. Gentleman about the success of Welsh people in America.
David Williams has set up a business network across north America. He says that an equivalent networking system is desperately needed for Welsh academics. Our greatest export over the past 100 years has been our young people and our young qualified people, thousands of whom have ended up in academic institutions in Canada and the USA. It would be beneficial to the Welsh economy if we could develop a network between those academics, to make them aware of the research and the developments in Wales, and the fact that Wales is developing a booming economy. We could even try to convince them to return. That has been done in Ireland, where there is a skills shortage. At Easter and Christmas, people go to Dublin and Shannon airports to ask people where they are from and what their qualifications are, before pointing out job opportunities in Ireland. I urge the development of a Welsh academic establishment across America and, indeed, the world.
We could also develop the twinning of towns and counties in Wales. That already happens on a haphazard basis and has been mentioned by several hon. Members. My county of Denbighshire is twinned with a region of Sweden and my home town of Rhyl is developing a twinning relationship with Athay in county Clare in Ireland. I also believe that Lesotho and Wales have been twinned for a number of years. We need promotion, co-ordination and perhaps a pocket of finance to draw on to develop the bonds around the world between Welsh towns, counties and organisations.
Click Cymru is another idea that warrants attention. I was involved with Hicks Randles in Mold in north Wales, and mentioned the 300 Welsh societies that exist around the world. People at that company thought it would be an excellent idea if we harnessed the support of the societies to develop the Welsh economy. They did a great deal of work on that for no pay—it was all off their own bat. Over a two-year period, they met high-powered people in BT, Barclays and the National Library of Wales to develop a portal—a database—for Wales. Specifically, they were interested in developing tourism.
The hon. Members for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd) and for East Carmarthen and Dinefwr (Adam Price) said that we need to attract people to visit Wales as a first resort. It will be difficult to do that, but one way is by developing links with the Welsh diaspora and by developing research resources, as Ireland has done. Fifteen years ago, the Taoiseach took young people off the dole and taught them computer skills. They went through the parish registers of births, marriages and deaths and the shipping registers, and put them all on to computer databases. Each county in the north and south of Ireland had a research centre, and those were used as a worm on a hook to attract people of Irish extraction back to the old country to research their roots. Many people

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did so and spent money in the local economy. They also strengthened even further the bond between Ireland, Irish-Americans and Irish people around the world.
Mr. Evans: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that we must also explain how easy it is to get to Wales, particularly if people come to Manchester airport for north Wales? The links are very good there, but we must improve the links at Cardiff airport so that people can discover south and west Wales.
Chris Ruane: I agree entirely, but first we must put the idea in people's heads to come to Wales. How they get there is a secondary factor, which we do need to look into.
Lembit Öpik: Does the hon. Gentleman agree with the hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) that, along with the important marketing campaign that he describes, we should think seriously about the benefits of having a regional structure for existing airports? We do not need much investment to finish off the campaign that he describes.
Chris Ruane: Absolutely. I agree with both points. We need international airports as well as regional airports in Wales. Again, I point to the example of Ireland. My family come from Oranmore in County Galway, where my uncle sold off fields for the development of Galway airport. There are also airports at Knock, Shannon, Kerry and Cork—in fact, throughout Ireland. We should be developing such a network in Wales.
I worked closely with Click Cymru, which spent a great deal of time, effort and research developing the database and portal that I mentioned. It received enthusiastic responses from people throughout Wales, but its bid for objective I funding was unsuccessful and has withered on the vine, so a fantastic opportunity has disappeared.
A number of hon. Members have mentioned the importance of St. David's day, which I think should be a national holiday in Wales. We should have the day off, or perhaps the day after so that we could celebrate late on St. David's day and recuperate the following day. I think that there may be something of the Welsh methodist in us all—I speak as a Catholic—because we seem to have a negative attitude towards celebration. Or perhaps it is just laziness. What did we Members do, collectively, rather than as individuals or within our own parties, to celebrate St. David's day this year in the House of Commons? Perhaps we should develop a cross-party initiative to promote Wales in the House. I know that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State had a bit of a beano, or a soirée, in Gwydyr house, and we are thankful for that.
Again, we need to look to the Irish example. My hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd, South (Mr. Jones) pointed out that the Dail in Ireland closes down for a week so that TDs and the Taoiseach can travel round the world to help to celebrate St. Patrick's day. That is not considered a freebie or a jolly: there is a database informing them who they are visiting, why they have been invited, who they are to talk to and what they are to say. The aim is to bring jobs and investment back to Ireland. We need to take a more structured approach to our St. David's day celebrations. I was pleased to hear that the First Minister was in New York
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celebrating St. Patrick's day and raising the Welsh profile. He was also, as I mentioned, at the Gymanfa Ganu in San Jose, where the WDA had a large tent.
Mr. Llwyd: I know of the hon. Gentleman's interest and enthusiasm in this area, but I point out that the First Minister was celebrating St. David's day, not St. Patrick's day.
Chris Ruane: I thank the hon. Gentleman for correcting me on that point, although I am sure that the First Minister celebrated St. Patrick's day too.
The Welsh Affairs Committee was told in evidence that the Taoiseach visits America with a list of people of Irish extraction, drawn from corporate America, whom he will meet and wine and dine, in the hope of getting a certain type of investment for Ireland. The Secretary of State and the First Minister should be doing as much of that as they can.
I urge hon. Members to take up their visits. We can now make three visits a year to European Union capitals.
Gareth Thomas: And to candidate countries.
Chris Ruane: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. We can now visit candidate countries in eastern Europe.
Lembit Öpik: Including Estonia.
Chris Ruane: Yes, including Estonia. We need to find out about the international and European links in our own constituencies and take advantage of our visits to develop those links.
We also need to consider the use that is made of Welsh celebrities, such as Charlotte Church, Catherine Zeta Jones, loan Gruffydd—who incidentally was said by American women to be sexier than George Clooney—Tom Jones, Shirley Bassey and Bryn Terfel. They are all proud to be Welsh, but we need a more structured and co-ordinated approach to taking advantage of their celebrity to promote Wales in America.
I turn now to a more contentious part of my speech. We must look carefully at the image of Wales being portrayed, especially in the UK, by certain sections in Wales. I am expecting hon. Members to intervene, but I will accept interventions—as many as are requested—at the end of these remarks. Over the past two years there have been a number of incidents of people speaking in strong and detrimental terms about what is happening to the language.
I am talking about people such as Gwilym ab loan, who said:
"Montana is the dumping ground for oddballs, social misfits and society drop outs and Wales suffers from the same phenomenon. Soon Wales will be so full of foreigners, in our own land our voice will be drowned out."
I am talking about people such as John Elfed Jones, who compared the movement of non-Welsh speakers into Welsh-speaking communities, which includes people who, like me, were born and raised as Welshmen, to the spread of foot and mouth disease.

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I am talking about people such as Eifion Lloyd Jones, who urged Welsh schools not to accept too many non-Welsh-speaking children. That includes my own daughter, who attends a Welsh-speaking school. In fact, it was the first Welsh-speaking school in the English language community in Wales, and I attended its 50-year celebration two years ago. In that school, 85 per cent. of the children are from families whose mother tongue is English, and it is doing a fantastic job. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] It is good to hear that agreement.
I know that Plaid Cymru Members have stood up to be counted and have criticised people like Eifion Lloyd Jones. They include the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy, who is on the record in the House as having criticised Seimon Glyn for his racist comments last year. The hon. Gentleman said that the Secretary of State or his eminent PPS was passing up crib notes. These are not crib notes; they are notes that I have gleaned myself by typing the word "racist" into the computer and extracting about 20 different articles. Many of them are from The Guardian and other national newspapers, not just the Daily Post or the Western Mail.
Some Members have taken a principled stand. Again, I mention Dafydd Elis-Thomas, the Presiding Officer of the National Assembly for Wales, who admitted that there was an anti-English feeling within Welsh language nationalism which risked deepening tensions between Welsh and non-Welsh speakers. That development has been roundly criticised by eminent non-political people in Wales, including the Professor of Judaism at Lampeter university, who was deeply disturbed by attacks on incomers to Wales. He said:
"It's just the kind of language used in the early stages of Nazism in the 1930s."
If words like "mixed marriages", "incomers" and "in-migration" are bandied around, a political climate is created. If politicians stand back and do nothing, they are part of the process. I therefore welcome the interventions of some members of Plaid Cymru but, to make a political point, criticism has come from Back Benchers and the Presiding Officer, but not the leadership of the party.
None of the articles that I took off the internet mention Ieuan Wyn Jones, whose views are hidden. He should look at the lessons learned by the Labour party when it was infiltrated by extremists in the 1980s. It took a principled leader, Neil Kinnock, to stand up and root out those extremists. He was straight with them and said, "These our rules and this is the way we operate. If you don't like it, get out." That is exactly what should have been done with Seimon Glyn: the problem should have been nipped in the bud and he should have been told by Ieuan Wyn Jones, "Any more of this and you're out."
However, Ieuan Wyn Jones failed to take such action; as a result, extremism has spread both within and outside his own party, which is detrimental to Wales and sends out entirely the wrong message to people in England, the rest of the UK and elsewhere. Why should an investor invest in north Wales when he is told, "Come in, invest and build your factor, but don't you or your children come into our communities. Even if you want your children to speak Welsh, we do not want them in our Welsh language schools as they will pollute the language." Entirely the wrong message is sent out to tourists. Why should they come to Wales when offensive signs are stuck up?
I have not spoken on this topic before. I do not want to mix it with Plaid Cymru, which has its own agenda. However, the issue is pertinent to our debate on Wales in
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the world; it has a negative effect on the position of Wales in the UK. I urge Members on both sides of the House to do their utmost when racist comments are made in the media to stand shoulder to shoulder and say that they will not accept or tolerate them.
Mr. Llwyd: I noticed that the hon. Gentleman did not refer to what the hon. Member for Clwyd, West (Gareth Thomas) said about incomers swamping Colwyn Bay and adding to pressure on social services. However, I have no truck with the kind of behaviour described by the hon. Gentleman, and neither does my hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion (Mr. Thomas), who has just returned from the Le Pen protest in France. We are not signing up to any agenda of that description; we never have and we never will.
Chris Ruane: I accept the hon. Gentleman's assurance. As I have said, he is on record in the House of Commons as criticising Seimon Glyn on the issue.
There are other significant issues, including houses in multiple occupation in seaside towns, which my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd, West (Gareth Thomas) has rightly brought into political debate. However, the language and terminology that we use to discuss that issue create a particular political climate. Preserving the Welsh language is important, as is preserving jobs in our rural communities, but we cannot develop proper policies on them if the language does not fit the issue, as has been the case. We need political unity to develop proper housing policies and make sure that finance and resources are available to spread the language. However, that has been made more difficult by certain sections of Plaid Cymru and the Welsh language movement.
Mr. Evans: I touched on that in my speech. Does the hon. Gentleman accept that while certain people say nasty, damaging and hurtful things, the message from our debate should be loud and clear to the people of the UK, particularly in England? They are extremely welcome to visit Wales, set up businesses and create employment there. Only a small minority of nasty people say damaging things; they discredit our country.
Chris Ruane: Absolutely. As I said, I am pleased that there have been comments from other Opposition parties in support of that.
In conclusion, if we work together as politicians and develop a political agenda to promote Wales within Wales, the UK and around the world, we are much more likely to achieve our goals than we are with a divisive political agenda in our own country.
4.56 pm
Hywel Williams: I congratulate the Welsh Affairs Committee on its report. It is sad but not surprising that the report did not reach the House earlier. I recently took part in a debate on the equally important social fund report produced by the former Social Security Committee, and it languished for at least a year before being debated.
We are debating the Welsh report on a quiet afternoon when other events have drawn attention elsewhere; it is sad that attendance in the Chamber is thin. We have heard about ignorance about Wales and the Welsh language

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which seems to extend to BT. Recently, I dialled 192 and asked for a number in the blameless community of Garndolbenmaen. I was asked which country that was in; Members may be interested to know that I was dialling from Swansea.
Some Members have looked at the subject of our debate—Wales in the world—chosen the world rather than Wales, and decided to go elsewhere. It is sad that some of them represent Welsh constituencies. I note that the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. David) has departed, perhaps to hone his literary skills after receiving a blast from my hon. Friend the Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd). The hon. Member for Conwy (Mrs. Williams) is no longer in the Chamber. Contrary to her usual views, perhaps she has succumbed to the delights of Virgin Rail.
Our debate is about Wales in the world, not Wales or the world, a principle that has guided many people from my constituency for many years, not least the entrepreneurial slate traders who carried slates from Porthmadog, Caernarfon, Porth Dinorwig and elsewhere to all parts of the world in the previous two centuries. The principle also guides the thoughts of my party and progressive national bodies, as I shall explain later. In my constituency, we have a large Polish community, as some Members may know. We have a Polish retirement community, Dom Polska, in a rural part of Caernarfon, which is trilingual; signs appear in Polish, Welsh and English. The communities of Llanbedrog, Pwllheli and Penrhos have gained tremendously for many years from the existence of that retirement home, not least from the substantial employment that it provides.
I propose three guiding aims for looking at Wales and the world. We should be consistent in speaking as Welsh people with one voice, and we should speak up for Wales, not talk it down. The pictures that we should present should be true pictures of ourselves, unencumbered by narrow political considerations. Our primary purpose should be to represent Wales, not other interests—that is the principle of our party. We have far to go before those aims are achieved.
Tourism has been discussed by many hon. Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy. In March, I attended a British Tourist Authority reception to mark St. David's clay. It was a convivial evening attended by the Secretary of State for Wales, the Under-Secretary of State for Wales and the Minister for Tourism, Film and Broadcasting, the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Dr. Howells), who is unaccountably absent. Given his ministerial interests and much-advertised internationalism, I would have expected to see him here at some point.
During that evening at the BTA, we heard many fine words, if to the accompaniment of some rather dodgy white wine.
Mr. Llwyd: It was not Welsh, was it?
Hywel Williams: No, but it was warm, to say the least.
Significantly, I soon found myself giving Wales the hard sell to some BTA executives. It was only later that I realised that it should have been the other way round: they should have been giving me the hard sell. However, they
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seemed interested, or at least polite. We heard fine words, and look forward to even finer action, especially as regards the recommendations of the report. In the past, the impression has wrongly been gained that tourism in the UK consists of a golden triangle to the east, and that the mountains of Eryri—Snowdonia—in my constituency are merely pimples on the body politic: or touristic, perhaps. I shall not go into any detail on where the pimples are to be found. That impression will be particularly wrong in future if the BTA lives up to its promises.
One of our priorities for tourism must be to promote the nature of the unique nature of the Welsh holiday experience, including ensuring the prosperity of the Welsh language and culture and of our unique take on the English language. Too many people forget that English is, after all, a Welsh language.
Another priority must be to address the transport problems that beset our country, not least north-south, by rail and by road. In my constituency we have the Cambrian line. Recently, when travelling on the west coast main line, I looked at the railway map and noticed that the Cambrian line was not there. The line went from Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth; to the north there was nothing at all. I seem to remember that the last time I went in that direction there was a railway line all the way from Machynlleth to Pwllheli.
We must deal with training deficits in the tourism industry. Some good work is already in hand, as I have heard from my local colleges.
Lembit Öpik: Before the hon. Gentleman moves away from the rail network, does he agree, given that there is a lot of competition to take over the rail network, that an important factor in attracting people to Wales is the quality of the proposals to ensure that there is a truly national rail network across Wales, adding to what we hope will be an effective regional airport structure?
Hywel Williams: The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. Certainly, the quality of the Cambrian line leaves something to be desired. The sum required to bring it up to a proper standard is relatively small, but it faces competition from other rail priorities. We want to ensure that it is given proper attention, because investment is needed for the loop that will increase traffic tremendously on the northern part of the line.
As I said, it is important to deal with training deficits in the tourism industry, and some good work is already in hand, as I have seen in my local colleges. However, we have far to go to reach the point where working in tourism services is more than a second choice—or even worse—for our young people. During my time at school and as a student, I spent many summers working in the tourism industry, and at that time such employment left a great deal to be desired.
Given the system of government that we currently enjoy, it is important to develop secondments between Welsh institutions and public bodies in our European and UK counterparts. I note that the Assembly exceeded its target of six secondments per year to European institutions. Will the Minister tell us what progress has been made in developing secondments with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office? Secondment is a two-way process. What progress has been made in training UK

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overseas staff about Wales to raise their awareness of the resources of its landscape, people, languages and culture? On the UK level, it is not only a matter of secondments to the Wales Office. What progress has been made as regards secondments to other UK Departments?
The vital sector of secondments to UK and international business will be of great help to Welsh business. On 26 October I received an answer from the Department of Trade and Industry in which I was told:
"It is not possible from central records to give the location"— [Official Report, 26 October 2001; Vol. 373, c. 415W.]
of every secondment from private business into Government and from Government into private business. However, I was given a long list of 341 companies that have taken or given secondments to the DTI. The only one that I could discover that seemed to have any Welsh relevance was the Prince of Wales's press office, which, with all due respect, is not the powerhouse of the Welsh economy or Welsh industry. I note that Arthur Andersen also figures in the list.
On 17 October, I asked the Secretary of State a question about business in the private sector seconding people into the Wales Office. His reply stated that the current arrangements mean that
"it is not practicable to attribute individual outward secondments to the Wales Office. There have been no inward secondments from the private sector to the Wales Office."—[Official Report, 29 October 2001; Vol. 373, c. 492W.]
Given the key role that international business and trade could play in developing the Welsh economy, that matter needs attention, and I look forward to hearing the Minister's response.
I want to refer briefly to the Wales European Centre, which has been debated this afternoon in another place. The Assembly's response to the report states:
"Both the Assembly's Brussels Office and the WEC are important tools in forging an identity for Wales in Europe. They also ensure that we are well placed to engage with EU institutions at an early stage."
This month, the Assembly office decided to pull out of the Wales European Centre and to set up a separate office in Brussels. Plaid Cymru condemns the decision to withdraw funds from the Wales European Centre. We acknowledge that changes are needed, but we are worried about the lack of prior consultation, whatever the First Minister says.
Sir John Grey is currently conducting a review into the workings of the Wales European Centre. Perhaps it would have been better to await its conclusions before acting without consulting. The way in which the matter has been handled is damaging to Wales's reputation in Europe.
Mr. Simon Thomas: My hon. Friend mentioned the Wales European Centre and embassies. Does he agree that we should also consider the British Council and its work in promoting Wales abroad'? Does he share my anxiety that it has no worked-out programme for promoting devolved parts of the United Kingdom? Many people abroad learn about the activities and culture of the United Kingdom through the British Council. They would never know about the Welsh language and culture through the current programme.
Hywel Williams: I agree. I unfortunately have to listen to the BBC World Service in the small hours. Again, little
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attention is given to Wales in that Foreign Office-funded service. We need to use the instruments of the British state to promote Wales abroad more effectively.
I want to consider trade and industry, especially the creative industry. Three industries are based in my constituency. Ceka Tools was originally a German company, which was relocated to Pwllheli, and is now a substantial importer and exporter of hand tools and other goods. It has recently extended its market to Ireland. Instead of continually looking to the east, it has taken advantage of our excellent links with Ireland.
Sain records has developed a body of Welsh music on tape, disc, CD, video and DVD. It has a substantial list that it sells to the United States. It is very successful and is branching out locally and opening a shop in Caernarfon to sell its goods.
Hufenfa De Arfon—the South Caernarfonshire Creamery—has recently won an export reward. It is based in the west of my constituency, far from centres of population, yet it makes a cheese called Monterey Jack to an American recipe, which it manages to export to America. I am not sure what the English idiom is—
Chris Ruane: Sending coals to Newcastle.
Hywel Williams: I thank the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane).
The creamery is doing well because it has a basic sense of entrepreneurship to which I referred earlier in respect of state industry. Lest anyone doubts that such entrepreneurship exists in the Welsh language as well as the English language, I recently attended the creamery's annual general meeting with Carwyn Jones from the National Assembly for Wales and Dafydd Wigley, my immediate predecessor. It was successful and interesting and conducted entirely through the medium of Welsh.
On a lighter note, there is a story circulating in my constituency that we have a large French creamery in south Caernarfon. Some tourists saw a milk tanker carrying the name "Hufenfa De Arfon" and wondered, because of the way in which they pronounced it—houvenva d'arvon—why a French company was based in south Caernarfonshire. We therefore have real and imagined international links in Caernarfon.
I am sure that all hon. Members were glad about the launch of Cyfle Cymru—Opportunity Wales—on 22 April. It is the largest e-commerce initiative of its type in Europe. That will give Welsh business and commerce an advantage in exporting to and working in other countries. Cyfle Cymru will provide a wealth of opportunities for small and medium-sized enterprises to extend their businesses and work up niche export markets.
The international image of Wales and Welsh business will increasingly be sourced locally in Wales to the whole world. I heartily subscribe to the principle of thinking globally and acting locally. I note that Cyfle Cymru's site is entirely bilingual—no narrow monoglotism there. I sincerely hope that many hon. Members will attend the London launch of Cyfle Cymru—Opportunity Wales—on 21 May.
Many companies in my constituency are associated with the television production industry. I was told recently that that industry had succeeded in creating up to 800 jobs in an area where jobs of such quality are scarce. It has

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succeeded not only in providing Welsh language programmes to SpedwarC—S4C—but in establishing many joint productions with other countries. A friend recently returned from a long stint of filming in Poland and enjoyed good relations with film companies there. He looks forward to further work there.
The 800 jobs are vital and the success of the industry depends on secure funding, which needs to be extended when necessary. I was therefore glad to meet the chief executive of the North Wales Film Commission at my constituency office. Again, he is selling Wales hard, especially north Wales locations, to the film industry. He has achieved notable success in attracting major Hollywood productions as well as domestic UK and Welsh productions.
There is an interesting and varied picture of international links in trade and the creative industry in my constituency. Those links need to be supported and we look forward to their providing many more high quality, high value jobs in the future.
In reference to the three principles that I mentioned at the beginning of my speech, I note that the difference between Plaid Cymru, as a nationalist party, and the other parties in this place is that our prime purpose is to represent Wales. I am certainly proud to do that.
5.15 pm
Huw Irranca-Davies: I welcome the opportunity to take part in this important debate. I also welcome the unanimity across the Floor of the House today in representing and putting the case for Wales. I should stress, however, that we are also here as United Kingdom Members of Parliament, so as well as putting the case for our own communities and for Wales we must put the case for the United Kingdom. I do not see a schism in those concepts.
If I may, I shall tread on dangerous ground by talking about Wales, the Welsh, tourism and the whole question of image and identity. These issues are crucial as we reach a turning point in Wales. We have gone through years of massive restructuring in industry involving the loss of the coal mining industry, and the turbulence in the steel industry at the moment. We can see the restructuring going on. This is a time of change and of pain. Out of that, however, will come opportunity and challenge.
We need to achieve—in the House, in our communities and as a Welsh nation—a clear confidence in what we are about, what we see ourselves as, and where we see ourselves going as a nation. If we can reach some degree of agreement on that, we shall have achieved a lot today, and we can take that message forward. This is not a political point. We need coherently and consistently to present the idea that we are not going to whinge when whingeing is not necessary. We should present the case that Wales is a nation of winners and of potential. We can do things as well as or better than anyone else. We in this House are aiming to present that case.
Why is this important? First, it is important for business. Some good points have been made this afternoon about business and entrepreneurship. It is vital that we change the culture and give people the structures and the confidence that will enable them to take forward
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that entrepreneurial vision. Wales has undoubtedly lacked those skills for many years, for whatever reason, so we must advance the case for such change.
Inward investment is important, but, as has rightly been pointed out, it is not the be all and end all. It has, however, been a great help and we have been very successful in attracting it. We should not turn our backs on it, but we also need to encourage our own small businesses and self-employed businesses to set up, to take on small numbers of people and to build from there. That is not to say, however, that they should set up in their own region and then move to a location where production costs are cheaper or the wages are a quarter of those in Wales. We have seen that happen before, and we have to encourage them to stay.
It is also important for society and the community that we agree on some kind of identity and cohesion. Sometimes, when we are considering the technical details, we underestimate the idea of having shared goals and aspirations—a vision that enables people to say, "Yes, the politicians in the House, the Assembly and throughout the land are saying that this is what we want. We want to bring our children up in the areas where we live because the politicians are trying to provide these opportunities and this vision." The vision thing can easily be dismissed if we concentrate only on the nuts and bolts. If we forget about the vision thing, however, and forget about where we want to be in 10 or 15 years, it will all fall down and cease to be worth while.
Mr. Prisk: Without wishing to engage in gratuitous back-slapping, I entirely agree with what the hon. Gentleman said earlier—not least because he was agreeing with me. Does he agree that it is at the heart of this matter to move from a culture of dependency—in this case, economic dependence on one employer—to one of independence and confidence? I endorse his comments about change, and I wonder whether he would agree with that suggestion.
Huw Irranca-Davies: Indeed, the hon. Gentleman is right. There is always a danger in relying too much on a single employer, which is why we need diversity in the economic community as much as in the cultural community. The Welsh Development Agency has been making strides in that direction, but it must go further. The Secretary of State will no doubt continue his discussions with it to ensure that there is a network of approaches in the business community rather than too much reliance on just one.
I want to speak specifically on tourism, which has been much discussed today. There is a subtle difference, which has not been mentioned, between the identity of a person and a nation and what is presented as a tourism product. Much has been said about kicking out the old stereotypes and getting rid of the idea of turning us into a heritage nation. As a chap called Hewison once said, "Who wants a nation when you can step off the plane from Heathrow and walk into a Disneyfied theme park of heritage and castles?" We must accept that many people want that—they come here because of the pageantry, the industrial heritage, the castles, the legends and the myths—and that it is an essential ingredient of tourism, even though it is not necessarily what we are now.
We talk about identity: one aspect is a forward-looking nation seeking dynamic industry and diversity of communities and culture; the other is giving the tourists

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what they want. We must accept that as a nation, even though there may be a stereotypical element to it. Felix Mendelssohn, writing way back in the 19th century, said:
"Here I am in Wales … and a harper sits in the vestibule of every inn and never stops playing so-called folk melodies, that infamous, common stuff'.
If the tourists demand such a product, let us give them what they want.
Kevin Brennan: A harp in every pub.
Huw Irranca-Davies: Yes, indeed.
This is undoubtedly a time of change, as well as opportunity. In 1945, there were more than 250,000 jobs in collieries, but by 1989 there were 10,000, and the story continues. In addition, we had immense industrial dereliction as a left-over. In the early 1960s, there were more than 8,000 hectares of disused spoil heaps, 3,000 hectares of disused mineral workings and 7,500 disused, derelict installations. That is still the image that some people hold of Wales—dereliction and despoiled valleys—but times have moved on significantly.
Back in 1935, Thomas Jones wrote in the New Statesman:
"What's wrong with Wales? … South Wales should be designated as a grant national ruin".
How times change. Would he not be interested to know that the Blaenavon ironworks is designated a world heritage site, along with the pyramids? We have the potential; we need to play to our strengths.
Before 1966, there were only three reclamation schemes for despoiled areas in the whole of Wales. By 1990, thanks to local authorities and the WDA, more than £170 million had been spent on 800 sites covering 17,000 acres. An area the size of a football pitch, every day of every year during this period, was turned back towards its natural state. That may be seen in my area—the Llynfi, Garw and Ogwr valleys have been turned back to their natural state—but we must put something back into those communities to acknowledge that the industries have gone and to provide a vision for the future. We have treated the areas cosmetically; now we must move on and bring jobs and a different vision.
In 1939, a pressure group called Political and Economic Planning proposed closing Merthyr and transporting all the residents down to sunny Monmouthshire, for the good of the residents and the taxpayer. The House, the WDA and the Assembly can suggest better remedies than that. I mention those illustrations because we do not want to dwell only on our history. We have the new image to contend with—for example, a dynamic industry such as adventure activities.
I used to be a lecturer at the Swansea institute. It now runs courses in adventure activity management, water sports and sailing management and golf management—as the Ryder cup comes to Wales. That is the sort of innovation that results from a different image, and from bringing major events to Wales and developing tourism there. We should consider how the past can benefit the future.
An example in my constituency is the Garw valley railway, the "Daffodil Line". Volunteers united to seek funds, helped by the local authority and other agencies, to put a steam railway back into a cul-de-sac valley—a
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valley leading nowhere. Until recently, its future led nowhere as well. Now there will be a railway that we hope can be linked with the adventure activity centre at the top of the valley, and with crafts, the work of local painters, cafés and so on.
That is one instance of the vibrancy that we can develop in our communities and put across as the Welsh product. We must dwell partly on our industrial heritage and our culture and partly on a new entrepreneurial vision of not just a great unspoilt landscape, but a centre of interest and activity—adventure activities, and activities for the family.
The importance of tourism has already been mentioned, so I shall not say too much about it. Let me point out, however, that even in Bridgend, where there is a 10-year strategy for tourism development, tourism contributes £119 million a year, supporting 2,500 jobs. As has been said, Wales receives 8 per cent. of UK tourism spending but only 2 per cent. of overseas spending.
Tourism is not one-way traffic; it benefits areas. The conservation of the countryside and parks has been productive. Apparently, 63 per cent. of visitors to the Garw valley country park said that that had influenced their decision to visit the area. There are 750 public rights of way, including the Celtic trail and cycleways, which are likely to attract 200,000 people to south Wales; and there are crafts. There is, for instance, the Welsh Porcelain Company at Maesteg.
Let us look at Wales as a whole, however. Why do tourists go there? They mention certain attributes. A Wales Tourist Board survey carried out a year ago mentioned beautiful scenery, castles, the friendliness of the people, fresh air, a land of legend and mystery, and somewhere to enjoy the great outdoors. But what made people feel let down? What did they feel they had missed at the end of their visits? Apparently, the "legend" aspect, and the experience of a country that is famed for song, music and poetry.
We are failing to capitalise on our strengths. We should go beyond the stereotypes. We should look at what the Irish do with the idea of craic and fun—the idea of a harp in every pub, and an Irish jig band in every pub. Let us play to our strengths. It may seem coy to us and it may not be what happens at our local hostelries, but given the money that can flow from tourism, we need to be bold and imaginative. We are underselling ourselves.
I welcome the additional spending on the Wales Tourist Board and the British Tourist Authority. The BTA should extend more of the benefits from London into the regions. I would welcome ambitious targets, not just for the next two or three years but for the future generally. The "hidden Britain" campaign is helping to spread those benefits across the regions.
The comment
"Wales at present is little more than the highlands of England without a highland line: it is a geographical expression"
was made in 1886. Sometimes it seems that we have not moved much further in terms of tourist development. How can we persuade inbound tourists to go further out into the regions?
I was disappointed to read, on the BTA's very good website, that when it recommended a set itinerary for the UK involving 10 days' travel over 1,100 miles of the UK, tourists spent one day venturing across the border to

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Welshpool, seeing the gardens and travelling down the Severn. That is not my idea of what Wales is. That does not capitalise on the products and opportunities that we have. I stress to the Secretary of State and to other Ministers that we need to look carefully at how Wales is marketed. The BTA has moved in the right direction, but it needs to move a little further.
The Welsh language is an important issue in that regard. Opposition Members have already said how important it is. We agree that the Welsh language has intrinsic value. It is part of our culture but it also has a value for tourism. I agree that it is what differentiates us. It gives us the authenticity of Wales and the Welsh. It is not spoken widely throughout Wales, but it is significant in certain parts of Wales.
On genealogical resources, we are being beaten again. The Scottish and Irish have easy access if they want to trace their ancestry. We are starting to get there, but we are not quite there: we are playing catch-up. We have gone in the right direction but we should go further to make it easy to access genealogical sources.
Mr. Simon Thomas: I agree with the hon. Gentleman's general tone but I am sure that he would not let the opportunity pass without paying tribute to what the National Library of Wales in Aberystwyth does to help people from abroad to trace their genealogical records. I am sure that he will find if he goes there that visitors from abroad can find all the information online, including important Welsh Mormon records, from which a lot of people trace their Welsh origins.
Huw Irranca-Davies: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. That is right. My point was about the ease of access. The websites are fantastic but they should be easily accessible. They are available, as the Welsh and Scottish websites are. They do a tremendous job. Let us bring them to the forefront so that we can see more of them.
It is rare for poetry to be quoted in the Chamber, but I want to contrast a vision of Wales. R.S. Thomas wrote:

"There is no present in Wales,

And no future;

There is only the past,

Brittle with relics,

Wind-bitten towers and castles

With sham ghosts;

Mouldering quarries and mines;

And an impotent people,

Sick with inbreeding,

Worrying the carcase of an old song."

That has gone. We now need to move onwards with confidence. When the question is asked, "Who will answer for tomorrow?" it is us. Let us put that vision and the mechanisms in place, and let us drive in the tourism and get our fair share for Wales.
5.32 pm
Dr. Hywel Francis: I wish to declare an interest as the chair and trustee of the Paul Robeson Wales Trust.
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I welcome the debate for two reasons. First, it gives the House the opportunity to consider the evidence, observations and conclusions of this important Select Committee report. Secondly, it gives hon. Members the opportunity to reflect beyond the report on issues that are critical to Wales in the world.
On the conclusions of the report, hon. Members on both sides of the House have spoken eloquently on many of the issues that were problems and challenges at the time of the inquiry. The welcome arrival of democratic devolution in Wales is already beginning to impact positively on the presence and understanding of Wales on the world stage. The report makes an important contribution to that cause, and I hope that its many constructive conclusions will be taken up both by the Assembly and by Parliament at the earliest opportunity.
I turn to issues and themes that will need to be dealt with if Wales is to have a more central and dynamic role in the world. We need to consider four themes: first, celebrating our cultural diversity, which reminds us of our international roots; secondly, recognising and emphasising our historical and contemporary international role; thirdly, building on the growing positive attitudes towards the Welsh language in Wales and how we portray that internationally; and, finally, strengthening our relationships with Europe.
The Rhondda writer Gwyn Thomas once wrote that we were
"one of the classic lands of emigration".
If we want to look at our motherland, we have to keep turning, for our brothers and sisters are everywhere. I believe that there is another meaning to those words. As Dr. Mashuq Ally, the head of the Commission for Racial Equality in Wales, has said:
"Wales is a commonwealth of communities."
Modern multicultural and multifaith Wales does look around the world as our Wales is worldwide in its origins and we should be proud of that. Again, Gwyn Thomas put it beautifully:
"As you move to the docks"—
in Cardiff—
"you hear the high soft speech of a hundred tongues from Africa and the East, or perhaps from the lips of a child born into the docks, the enchanting mixture of Somerset. Madagascar and Pondlanffraith"
The Commission for Racial Equality in Wales has done much in recent years to make us more aware of our cultural diversity, celebrating rather than fearing it. I hope that the role of the CRE will be enhanced and strengthened in years to come so as to achieve greater social cohesion within Wales and between Wales and the world and make our full contribution to conquering racism and xenophobia at home and abroad.
Mr. Simon Thomas: Will the hon. Gentleman join me in welcoming the fact that the CRE will contribute to the conference next Tuesday on the future of the Welsh language in Wales and the role of our Welsh-speaking communities? I am sure that he also welcomes the way in which the CRE is exploring these issues with Welsh language communities.
Dr. Francis: Indeed I do welcome the role of the CRE in all this work. I know that many of its officers have entered into fruitful discussion with many language groups on this important issue.

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Many of us were brought up on a heady diet of Welsh internationalism. I believe that the children's hymn "Draw, draw yn China" was an internationalist hymn not an imperialist one. For us, Elfed's words:

"Da yw caru gwlad ein hunain,

Gwell yw caru'r gread gyfan",

which translate as:

"It is good to love one's country,

It is better to love the whole world",

were a statement of fact, not a political assertion.
The anti-fascist Jack Roberts, known locally as Jack Russia, born in Penrhyndeudraeth, captain in the international brigades and organiser of the national eisteddfod at Caerphilly, and Tom Jones, known throughout Wales as Twm Sbaen, a Franco prisoner from Rhosllanerchrugog and founder of the Wales TUC, are not details of history but the very essence of Welsh history and indeed world history, as is Eunice Stallard, who was born in Ystradgynlais. She collected money for Basque refugee children in the 1930s and was a founder of the Greenham women's peace camp. Emma Goldman, the Russian-American socialist writer, a frequent visitor to my constituency in Briton Ferry and Cwmafan, was given British citizenship by the comradely gesture of marriage by James Coltman, a Glanaman miner from Carmarthenshire.
Wales ignores its proud internationalist history at its peril. There are many lessons to be learned. Many great radical movements—the peace movement, the antiapartheid movement, the green movement and the trade union movement—have their origins in the distinctive social justice and internationalist, welcoming and tolerant traditions of Wales.
Lembit Öpik: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would agree that the Co-operative movement and Robert Owen's contribution is also important.
Dr. Francis: I apologise for not mentioning Robert Owen and the Co-operative movement. The first society of course was founded in Cwmbach in the Cynon valley in 1864.
When I want to think of Wales at its best, I think of our relationship with Paul Robeson and the causes of peace and justice which he espoused. It is thoroughly appropriate that "Let Paul Robeson sing!", the exhibition currently touring Wales, is funded by the National Assembly and local authorities, and the plans to take it to countries beyond Wales are most welcome. I hope that in time it will come to the Houses of Parliament.
I also think of Gregorio Esteban, who was born in Baracaldo in northern Spain, who taught Spanish through the medium of Welsh in Abercraf s miners' welfare hall, and of Salay Rahman, a founder of the Port Talbot Muslim Welfare Association and the Afan community credit union. Both were proud of their culture and faith, and proud to be Welsh.
I also think of the Welsh Centre for International Affairs, which is in Cardiff's temple of peace. It has for decades played a vital role in communicating Wales and Welsh aspirations to the world, and conversely explaining to Wales important contemporary, global, social, economic and cultural changes. The centre places strong emphasis on world citizenship, international youth
1130
exchanges, peace, conquering poverty and racism, and achieving global social justice. Its quiet, educational voice of tolerance and reason needs to be listened to and valued in Wales and beyond. It deserves our full support and we should be proud of its work.
I turn now to how we safeguard, portray and enhance the Welsh language, and how it is perceived internationally in cultural and commercial terms. We should be more confident in explaining how the Welsh language is very much part of modern Wales. The diligent work of bodies such as Cyd. Pont and the Urdd is largely unsung beyond Wales, yet but for their work and that of the Welsh-medium and bilingual pre-school and school movement over the decades, the language would not be as strong as it is today.
There is a danger that that benign, positive work will be eclipsed by other well-meaning and perhaps not so well-meaning forces. I am pleased that Neath Port Talbot county borough council is to welcome Europe's largest youth festival next year, the Urdd Eisteddfod, in my locality, and I am proud to be one of its vice-presidents. Locally, nationally and internationally, the event will give great impetus to the Welsh language as a language of the future, and as one that takes its place with equal status alongside other languages in Britain.
I end on a contemporary note: Wales in Europe. Welsh involvement in the European Union has always been positive. It was particularly so in the 1980s, through structural funds in assisting rural, urban and valley communities which experienced enormous economic and traumatic change—climaxing of course with the sad recognition that west Wales and the valleys had achieved objective 1 status.
Two major challenges are before us: the single currency and EU enlargement. Quite simply, the single market needs a single currency. From a Welsh perspective, the case for entry is comprehensively made in the recently published pamphlet "Wales in Europe", which emphasises safer jobs, more foreign trade and investment, and higher standards of living. The single market, the single currency and European enlargement are very much in both the internationalist traditions and the contemporary interests of the Welsh people, in achieving what Paul Robeson called peace, dignity and abundance for all.
5.43 pm
Kevin Brennan: I intend to focus on the role of the capital city in promoting Wales in the world, particularly its bid for European capital of culture in 2008.
Given the implications for Wales's image in the world, I should, however, first say a few words about the problems that occurred outside Ninian Park in my constituency after last night's second division play-off between Cardiff City and Stoke City. It would be wrong to exaggerate what happened or to tar all the Cardiff City supporters with the same brush. Indeed, problems were created by Stoke fans in the first leg. However, I say to those who were involved in any violence or disturbance that everyone understands the bitter disappointment of last night, following such a magnificent recent run, which was helped by the fantastic support of Cardiff City fans, but if such incidents are repeated, they will begin to threaten all our ambitions to see Cardiff in the premier league—in football and, indeed, in every sense.

1131
I draw the House's attention to early-day motion 1177, in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, North (Julie Morgan). I thank other hon. Members across the House, from Wales and beyond, who have given it their support. It commends Cardiff's bid to be European capital of culture in 2008. I also wish to draw hon. Members' attention to the fact that the bid document from Cardiff is now available and being circulated. An event will be held here in the House on 21 May to promote the bid to Members, and I ask them to make every effort to attend.
Cardiff's bid for European capital of culture highlights the transformation that has taken place in our capital city in recent years. Billy Connolly's recent programme, which showed his natural reaction to the changes that had taken place since he last visited the city, confirmed their radical nature. The statistics bear that out: the official mid-year estimate of Cardiff's population in 2000 was 327,500, which shows a population growth since 1991 of 9.2 per cent., compared with population growth in Wales as a whole of 1.9 per cent. and in the UK of 3.4 per cent. Given that the 2001 census is expected to confirm that the population of Wales is some 3 million, the metropolitan area of Cardiff hosts half the nation's population. Cardiff is also a cosmopolitan city. It is estimated that 2.3 per cent. of the population is black, 2.8 per cent. Asian, and 2 per cent. Chinese or other ethnic group.
The bid is important for the image of Wales for several reasons. For most of its history, Cardiff, as many hon. Members will know, was a relatively small village. It had Roman remains, having been built on a giant mud-pat where three rivers meet the Bristol channel. Greater historians than me will know that towns such as Merthyr, at the time of the 1830 rebel rising, and Newport, at the time of the Chartist rising in 1839, were much more important than Cardiff. It was in the second half of the 19th century, when the population graph for Cardiff was rising at a right angle, that the city grew rapidly. Had that population growth continued, the population of Cardiff today would be 20 million.
It was coal, and the valleys of south Wales, that were responsible for Cardiff's development. Coal was also responsible for the multicultural nature of the modern Cardiff, with all the different languages that are spoken and the influences from across the world, including Somalia and Yemen. Powerful European influences are also at work. One of Cardiff's most famous sons, Roald Dahl, wrote in his book "Boy":
"To the shipbrokers, coal was black gold. My father and his new found friend, Mr. Andersen, understood this very well. It made sense, they told each other, to set up their shipbroking business in one of the greatest coaling ports in Europe. What was it to be? The answer was simple. The greatest coaling port in the world at that time was Cardiff in South Wales. So off to Cardiff they went."
That explains why Cardiff eventually became our capital city in the 20th century. In 1905, Cardiff was designated a city and, in an era of great municipal expansion, some of its civic jewels, such as the city hall, were built. Indeed, the old plans for Cathays park—home of the city hall—show a site reserved for a Welsh parliament, because home rule was a big issue at the end of the 19th century. In 2005, we shall celebrate the centenary of Cardiff becoming a city and I hope that by then it will have been named as the capital of culture for 2008.
1132
In the 20th century, population growth slowed as the coal industry gradually declined. However, Cardiff had established its position as Wales's premier city. That position was cemented with events such as the 1927 FA cup final victory of Cardiff City over Arsenal. That was 75 years ago, almost to the day. Arsenal are playing in the final on Saturday, but not against Cardiff City, sadly.
Like many other British cities, Cardiff suffered in the second world war, but it also opened its arms to the world. As part of the city's bid to be capital of culture in 2008, residents of the Penalun house Jewish retirement home are writing a great Cardiff poem:

"Here in Cardiff we were German.

Back in Germany we were Jews.

Here, though, no one called us names.

Here in Cardiff we were welcomed."

That proud and honourable tradition forms part of the city's hid for 2008.
Cardiff was made the official capital of Wales in 1955, although it had been unofficially recognised as such for many years. Three years later, the Commonwealth games were held there. In the 1970s, the city was most famous for hosting the great rugby matches of that era, which included those involving the famous Welsh side of Barry John and Gareth Edwards, both of whom played for Cardiff rugby club.
There was a renaissance in the city during the 1980s and 1990s, with the redevelopment of Cardiff hay. My predecessor once spoke in the House for two hours and 40 minutes in opposition to the Cardiff bay barrage. My hon. Friend the Member for Newport, West (Paul Flynn) went as far as to invent an endangered species, the Grangetown barking rat, to try and build opposition to the barrage. He was not successful, and the bay development is now almost complete. It has transformed the area, which was in decline after the coal industry in Wales almost completely disappeared.
In 1999, the Millennium stadium was built for the rugby world cup, and democratic devolution came to Wales. That has meant that Cardiff has become a real capital, perhaps for the first time. The city also hosts the FA cup final.
The cultural and economic renaissance of our capital city is accompanied by a political one, with the realisation of Keir Hardie's vision of home rule, which we now call devolution. However, the city needs to reach out more to the rest of Wales, and to reach out, with Wales, to the rest of the world. That is what today's debate has been about.
Cardiff has not reached out enough in the past. Perhaps its cosmopolitan history means that the city has taken for granted the rest of Wales and the rest of the world. The bid for culture capital status is a way of reaching out, as it is being made on behalf of Wales as a whole, not on the city's behalf alone. It seeks to emphasise Cardiff's links with the rest of Wales, and the cultural achievements of Wales as a whole—north, south, east, west, city and countryside. It is an inclusive bid, which is why it has attracted so much support from Welsh Members of Parliament.
Many of the events planned will be Wales-wide, and will not be restricted to Cardiff. They will include events involving the Pop Factory at Porth in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Mr. Bryant), who was here earlier, and the Merthyr movie film project,

1133
in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Havard). Projects from all over Wales will be included in the bid.
Cardiff's bid will emphasise the youthfulness of Cardiff as a capital city in a devolved Wales, as well as the country's European links and cultural values. It will involve co-productions and exchanges with other countries across Europe. The communities of Cardiff and other parts of Wales will be included.
The great Cardiff poem is being compiled in conjunction with, and with the assistance of, the Welsh writers academy. Anyone visiting Cardiff can see the poem as a work in progress in the old library centre, where the bid headquarters is stationed.
The bid will emphasise inclusivity, diversity and multiculturalism. It will emphasise the languages of Wales—Welsh and English, of course, but also the other languages of ethnic minority communities so often heard in Cardiff and other parts of Wales.
Lembit Öpik: I am interested in the concept of inclusivity. Does the hon. Gentleman feel that there is a prospect of building in inclusivity in terms of performing arts events around Wales that feed into the central focus in Cardiff?
Kevin Brennan: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. That is very much part of the bid. I commend the bid document to him; it is lengthy, but it contains a passage on that very idea, including events such as the Llangollen international eisteddfod that he mentioned. We need to build on existing cultural events.
The bid will also build on the existing and developing cultural infrastructure in our capital city. One of Cardiff's great features and strengths in terms of quality of life is the richness of its cultural infrastructure. We know about the new millennium centre that is to be built. The hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) might support expenditure on developing the millennium centre even if he will not support the neighbouring new building of the National Assembly.
Partners in the bid include Cardiff castle, one of Wales's major tourist attractions; the Museum of Welsh Life, in my constituency; Coopers field, which will be developed into a permanent event site for 20,000 participants—the Urdd eisteddfod is being held in Cardiff this year: the Millennium stadium; the Oval basin in the docks, to be renamed the Roald Dahl Plass, in honour of Cardiff's famous resident: the Bay arts studios; the Howard Gardens gallery in the Cardiff School of Art and Design; the Cardiff International Arena; City Hall; the Channel View centre; the Chapter arts centre; Llanover hall; Llandaff cathedral; the New Theatre; the National Museum and Galleries of Wales; the Norwegian Church arts centre; the Sherman theatre; St. David's hall; Techniquest—the hands-on science and technology museum in Cardiff bay; the centres for sports training and competition, including indoor athletics; the Welsh Institute of Sport and the Glamorgan county cricket club school of excellence; the BIG SHED project in the bay; the Cardiff City football club new stadium; and the multicultural arts centre for Wales. I could go on, but I do not have the time. We have a major cultural infrastructure in our capital city, and we can build on it.
Cardiff also has an outstanding track record of hosting major international sporting, cultural and political events, including the European summits, the FA cup, the rugby
1134
world cup and, indeed, the Labour party spring conference. [Interruption.] The Liberal Democrats have also held their conference in Cardiff.
The use of new technologies will also be part of the bid. It will be used as a transforming experience for Cardiff and for Wales, to try and change the perception of Wales in the world, raise its status and make people more aware of what modern Wales is all about. When Glasgow was European capital of culture, we saw the impact that can have on the image of a city and a country.
I should like to finish by quoting a poet I know quite well, Gwyneth Lewis, who lives in Cardiff:
"The past we inherit, the future we build."
Cardiff's bid to be European capital of culture in 2008 is an important part of building the future of Wales in the world.
5.58 pm
Donald Anderson: We have had a remarkable debate, ranging from Gwyneth Lewis—and Estonia—to R.S. Thomas—and Estonia—to Gwyn Thomas—and Estonia. We even had a suggestion from the hon. Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr. Prisk), who is fairly new to Welsh debates, of an entrepreneurial deficit in Wales. As he is new, perhaps I should remind him of the story of what happened when Keith Joseph addressed a Swansea business club. He said that there was not an enterprise culture in Wales—that there was not even a Welsh word for entrepreneur. Of course, a heckler asked, "What is the English word for entrepreneur?"
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd, South (Mr. Jones) and his Select Committee on the report, which is wide-ranging, like our debate today, the theme of which has been the unknown image of Wales. The product is not well known outside Wales, but I take the wise remark of my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Mr. Caton) that while image and product identification must be considered, quality is of greater importance. We may have the greatest tourism marketing, but if our restaurants and hotels are poor, the quality of our product will not be worth having. That said, the theme was essentially the lack of product identification and the adverse effects on tourism and inward investment, to which reference is made in paragraphs 9 and 27 of the report.
I found much of what was said perhaps too defeatist. We have an unfortunate Welsh trait of folding our arms and saying, "It's all too difficult", or "The Irish are much more lucky." It is rather like the Llanelli-Leicester game last week, when the ball hovered and twice banged the post. We say, "That's Wales's fate. It always happens to us.
Incidentally, I agree wholly with what my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, West (Kevin Brennan) said about the millennium bid. My city, Swansea, is wholly in favour of that bid, but the challenge for Cardiff is to reach out to other parts of Wales. I recall that the people of Cardiff did not vote for devolution. Perhaps this is a debate for another day, but, in my judgment, the distance between Cardiff and other parts of Wales—the centralisation—is still proceeding apace. Whether measured by office rents, by house prices or by availability and location decisions, that is clearly a major problem for Wales.
Mr. Llwyd: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Donald Anderson: No, I must move on.

1135
Perhaps I can quickly illustrate the nature of the problem. When I was a student in France, an elderly lady from the United States asked me where I was from. I said, "Wales", to which she replied by asking, "Is that anywhere near Stratford?" That gives some indication of the problem.
I should like to say a little about the US. The hon. Member for Town hill and Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) mentioned an advert that he saw in New York. He will tell me if I am wrong, but it said something like, "Follow in your father's and your grandfather's footsteps." Well, when we consider the Irish in America, we may say that 40 million Americans look back to an Irish heritage, but let us not forget the strengths of Wales in the US. Let us analyse the foundations on which we can build not just in genealogy but in theme holidays and so on.
I stand to be corrected by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon (Dr. Francis) about our historical roots, but between a third and a half of the signatories of the declaration of independence were of Welsh extraction. Thomas Jefferson's father was a north Walian and called Snowdonia his home. As for the professions, some of the most eminent lawyers in US history were of Welsh origin, from Chief Justice Marshall—the seminal man in federalism—to Chief Justice Charles Evans Hughes, a Welsh speaker, who was only narrowly defeated by Woodrow Wilson in the 1916 presidential election.
Others with a Welsh background include Frank Lloyd Wright, the great architect of Chicago, and John L. Lewis, the great trade union leader—and in terms of professional competence, I remind the House that Al Capone's accountant, a Mr. Humphreys, was from Breconshire.
Mr. Llwyd: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Donald Anderson: Yes of course—if the hon. Gentleman wants to mention Al Capone.
Mr. Llwyd: I do not want to risk the right hon. Gentleman's wrath, but a former right hon. Member for Caernarfon was closely related to the said gentleman, Murray the Hump. I do not know whether that informs the debate—it probably does not.
Donald Anderson: As for the regional impact, which we have to target, Scranton and Walkes-Barr were bastions of Welsh culture in the 19th century. In Philadelphia, most of the place names on the mainline railway are related to Wales. Those in the old south were not of English background as they claimed, but mainly of Celtic background. Jefferson Davis, the President of the Confederacy, was a Welsh American, as, perhaps rather more importantly, was Jack Daniel, who founded the whiskey firm in Tennessee.
As for culture, the Irish may have their nostalgic and schmaltzy films with John Wayne, but John Ford's "How Green Was My Valley" is a hymn of praise to Welsh working-class solidarity and values. Our stars today range from Richard Burton and Anthony Hopkins to Catherine Zeta Jones and Joan Gruffydd, who has a cult following because of "Hornblower". I was reminded by my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Mr. Bryant) that Charlotte Church is billed as an English singer; there is a challenge for us.
1136
In terms of cultural matters, President Carter came to Swansea on the Dylan Thomas trail. With regard to male voice choirs, the Swansea male choir, of which I have the honour to be president, has been in Chicago and elsewhere in Illinois in the past 12 months. The Morriston Orpheus choir from my constituency has sung not only on two occasions in the Sydney opera house but September in Carnegie hall, after 11 September. Why cannot we make visits by Welsh choirs opportunities for disseminating Welsh tourist literature.? Why do we not send key historians to the United States—to targeted areas, such as Pittsburgh, parts of Chicago and parts of the south—to remind people there of the links with Wales? The distinguished Welsh historian, Professor Peter Stead, who happens to be a good personal friend, told me that he walked into a library in Wisconsin fairly recently and the first book that he saw was "Wisconsin and the Welsh". I should declare an interest, as he is a friend, but why do we not send such people on lecture tours around the United States?
Hywel Williams rose—
Donald Anderson: I have pledged to be brief.
Such opportunities should be used. My understanding is that, for instance, the opportunity of the Morriston Orpheus choir's visit to New York was not exploited. That was a public relations failing. It is a wonderful choir, which sang very well, but it was not adequately publicised; certainly, the Welsh element was not. We have a potential platform to exploit if we target it.
I have mentioned the United States, but I am sure that I could perform a similar exercise—I shall not do so, as colleagues will be pleased to hear—for the Welsh in Australia. We could try to build on our relationships there. I wonder whether we have been imaginative enough in considering those Welsh linkages. Having made a bid to send a friend of mine around the United States, I should not pursue that matter.
Hywel Williams rose—
Donald Anderson: I have promised to be brief.
On foreign diplomatic representation, I met a distinguished ambassador this morning from a Latin American country, and I tried this question on him: "What is your image, and your people's image, of Wales?" This distinguished ambassador—who had also been a foreign minister—said, "It is extremely hazy. My country, which is a major soccer country, thinks of the Welsh soccer team." Otherwise, he said that all his countrymen would think of Richard Burton as an English star. We have a problem of overcoming that image. Image can be helpful in terms of tourism and the attraction of industry. With regard to industry, however, we have been doing more in terms of using Welsh firms to act as missionaries for Wales.
To move away from the parochialism that sometimes exists in Wales—the valleys complex is the worst sort—cross-fertilisation in terms of the civil service was a valuable recommendation of the Committee. However, a quota of embassies overseas that should have people who have served in the Assembly was asking a little too much. It was, at least, something worth striving for—an impossible ideal, as Niebuhr said, which we should strive for nevertheless.

1137
On honorary consuls—again, I am delighted that the Committee wrote around to embassies—I have, in little ways, urged several key ambassadors to look for local business men, not just in Cardiff but perhaps in Town hill, who would be very happy to be honorary consuls. Those honorary consulships might fructify into full consular positions, and that would improve relations.
The ambassador to whom I spoke this morning had never been to Wales and was looking forward to going there. We must be far more proactive in ensuring that most of the major countries at least have an honorary consul in Wales. We should also ensure that we use the instruments that we have—the Welsh diaspora and contacts in the American and Japanese firms in Wales—so that, when people ask us where we are from and we say Wales, we are not asked whether it is close to Stratford.
We face enormous problems with our profile and product identification, but we have a good product and we should not be defeatist about it. We should look to our strengths and to every way in which we can maximise the recognition factor for Wales. We should be imaginative, and each one of us should be ready to bang the drum for Wales.
6.11 pm
Mark Tami: I welcome the Select Committee report "Wales in the World". It is honest and recognises that Wales has some way to go to establish itself at the forefront of people's thinking and consciousness abroad. I will spare people a rerun of the Charlotte Church story—we have probably heard enough about it—but it illustrates a point.
The fact that people in the wider world do not identify a product, service or even an individual as being predominantly Welsh does not mean that Wales is not playing a major role in the world economy. My constituency of Alyn and Deeside and much of north-east Wales are heavily dependent on manufacturing for their employment and well-being. As well as many small and medium-sized manufacturers, we have several large players, including Toyota, Corns and Airbus to name but three. Those companies export products across the world and they are at the forefront of value-added manufacturing.
Those companies are not considered to be Welsh. Indeed, of the three that I have mentioned one is Japanese, one is Anglo-Dutch and Airbus is a European partnership. Airbus illustrates a point. Its factory was previously known as BAE Systems and, despite the fact that it is in Wales, it was known as BAE Systems Chester. Thankfully, that has now changed.
The three companies have chosen to locate in Wales. More important, they have decided to stay and invest in Wales because of the quality of the products that are manufactured. All three operate in fiercely competitive markets, and that point applies to established companies as well as to new entrants. Airbus's achievement in coming from a standing start to compete with established giants, such as Boeing, is testament to its success, a success that many so-called experts said would be impossible to achieve. Its growing market share and order book for all sizes and types of passenger airliner shows that Europe and, importantly, Wales can succeed and compete whatever the challenge may be.
The introduction of the A380—the so-called super jumbo that will be the world's largest passenger airliner—will cement Airbus's position as a world leader in its
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market. That seemed impossible only a few years ago when the Boeing 747 was considered to be the only large passenger aircraft.
The success of the plant at Broughton has been possible only because of Airbus's sizeable commitment. Indeed, the new hangar in which the wings for the A380 will be built is under construction. It is the largest commercial building project in the UK, and Airbus is spending more than £l million a week on it. The completed building, which will he open in May 2003, will contain more than 14,000 tonnes of steel all produced and supplied by Corus. The building will have more than 1 million sq ft of floor space. It is a mammoth project, and a great achievement for Britain and Wales. However, it will be the work inside the building that will secure the position of Airbus and the jobs of thousands of people. The quality of that work must be the best, and I am confident that that will be achieved through the use of cutting-edge technology at the plant. We must maintain our intellectual property in that respect. The quality will also be achieved because of the skills of the work force at Broughton and, indeed, throughout north-east Wales.
Maintaining and enhancing the skills base is vital if we are to retain manufacturing jobs. That applies throughout Wales. In addition, we want to attract new inward investors to Wales. That is a big challenge for us, just as it is for Britain as a whole. Even in times of economic growth and low unemployment, there is a danger of eroding the skills base.
All hon. Members can give examples of manufacturing jobs in our constituencies which have been lost and replaced with jobs in the service sector or in more basic assembly operations. I am not denigrating those jobs, and they do provide employment but, as several hon. Members said, such jobs are readily exported to lower cost producers in eastern Europe or the developing world. That will always be a danger if we lack the value-added element and do not have real intellectual property. Those jobs can always be uprooted and transported elsewhere, and Wales has suffered as much, if not more, than any other part of Britain in that respect.
When my predecessor, now Lord Jones, made his maiden speech in the House, he spoke of the importance of the textile industry to what was then Flint, East and the almost total reliance on the steel industry for employment in the area. That pattern has changed dramatically since the 1970s, however. There has been a painful and damaging period of change throughout Wales, but new industries and employers have appeared. The change has not been seamless and it has been far from smooth.
There was massive unemployment throughout Wales in the 1980s. Our traditional employers did not so much go into decline as collapse. Large areas of Wales are still recovering from that dark period and we still have major issues to address, especially with regard to reskilling and re-equipping some of those people who lost their jobs and who need to re-enter the job market. North-east Wales has probably been more fortunate in rebuilding after that period than some other areas. The geography of the area has helped. We have a good road network and, following an announcement by the Department for Transport, Local Government and the Regions, I am glad to note that it will get even better in the near future.
Our proximity to north-west England has been especially important, in terms of both the supply chain and the interchange of employees and skills. Many of my

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constituents work in manufacturing companies across the border, such as Vauxhall at Ellesmere Port. Equally, many people from those areas come to Wales to work. So the solution to securing future employment and growth in north-east Wales is not simply a matter for Wales. We have to build on our successes; and look to the future, not the past. In north-east Wales we have a genuine possibility of establishing the premier location in Britain for quality manufacturing jobs. If we are to meet that potential, we need to continue to provide the right environment both for existing businesses, big and small, and for new inward investors.
I have spoken in the House of my disappointment at the decision of the Welsh Assembly not to grant permission to extend the Deeside industrial park. That would have created thousands of good quality jobs for Wales as a whole. North-east Wales therefore faces a challenge in finding alternative areas to develop, but I am sure that we will do so. The demand is there, and we must meet it.
North-east Wales has much to offer and a good story to tell, but companies will continue to invest in Wales only if we make them aware of the opportunities and benefits there. Importantly, politicians have a major job to do in that respect. We have to paint a positive picture of Wales. We must not denigrate it or portray it as a place of Victorian-era misery and depression. It is not like that, and we have a positive story to tell. We want people to come to Wales, to invest their money, to help to build our economy and to secure the long-term future for the people of Wales.
6.20 pm
Mr. Huw Edwards: I apologise for not being here for the early part of the debate. I was a member of the Select Committee when it undertook this inquiry, but I am no longer a member.
This has been an interesting and wide-ranging debate. I was impressed by the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) who made yet another good speech, using his expertise in tourism. He mentioned the success in achieving world heritage status for Blaenavon, which shows how much collaboration there has been between the local authorities of Torfaen, Blaenau Gwent and Monmouthshire. When that project is developed, it will be a great success.
I was interested in the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon (Dr. Francis). He will know that I have strong family connections with his constituency and in nearby Neath. He made important points, using his extensive historical knowledge. I also commend my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, West (Kevin Brennan) for his comments. I assure him that those people who support culture will support Cardiff's bid to be the European city of culture. That decision will be made soon, and I hope that we can make whatever representations are necessary to ensure that Cardiff is successful.
The Select Committee received evidence from significant organisations that are working hard to promote Wales abroad, including the Welsh Development Agency, the Wales Tourist Board and Wales Trade International. In the short time that I have to speak, I want to stress the importance of promoting Wales abroad and of promoting the interests of Monmouthshire.
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Monmouthshire is part of Wales. I know that there has been debate about that in the past, and I get a few letters questioning the fact, but I assure my constituents and all Members of the House that Monmouthshire is most certainly part of Wales. I am particularly proud to be a Welsh Member of Parliament representing a Welsh constituency, although I was brought up in the fine Welsh community here in London. One of the ambassadors for Wales from my little Welsh community is our latest operatic dame, Anne Evans, who was a member of our little chapel, capel y Borough, just a few miles away in Southwark.
I should like to focus on three aspects of the Select Committee's report. The first is tourism. I represent an area of Monmouthshire which is outstandingly beautiful and includes world-famous sites such as the Wye valley and Tintern abbey. It attracts visitors from all over the world. I wonder sometimes whether they come to the Wye valley but go no further into Wales. I sincerely want people coming from Heathrow, Gatwick or Birmingham airports to use Monmouthshire as an entrance to Wales.
I was particularly delighted to see in the Wales Tourist Board's promotional literature, which goes to other countries, a 10-day tour starting in Monmouthshire, but when I went into the tourist office in Monmouthshire, no such literature was available because the tour is only promoted abroad. I hope that such literature can be made available within Monmouthshire itself.
Recently, Monmouthshire has been severely hit by foot and mouth. In the Easter holiday and the few weeks since then, there has been a revitalisation of rural tourism in Monmouthshire. I was delighted to spend time over Easter in a beautiful part of my constituency, the Llanthony valley, which I think is unknown in England, in the world and in Wales. It goes from the village of Llanfihangel Crucorney, past Llanthony priory, towards Capel-y-Fin and over to Hay. Capel-y-Fin is in the constituency of the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Mr. Williams), and has the smallest polling station in the country.
I hope that hon. Members will be able to see the amusing video that was filmed, and recently launched, in Monmouthshire, "Arthur's Dyke", which depicts the walk along Offa's dyke. There are beautiful locations in Wales, so the film industry can invest there. We have a tremendous international film school in the university of Wales college just outside Monmouthshire at Newport. I give credit to everyone who campaigned to get Newport city status, which will benefit Newport, south-east Wales and Monmouthshire.
The Select Committee took evidence from Wales Trade International and the Welsh Development Agency, and realised the significance of promoting Wales abroad. I have a particular interest in links between Wales and Japan. I am delighted that Wales has an honorary Japanese consul and that events in the Japan-UK 2001–02 festival were held in Monmouthshire at the Monmouth Boys school and the superb but largely unknown Nimbus concert hall, which is the only quality concert hall between Birmingham and Cardiff. I wish that more people in Wales knew about it. Japan has done a tremendous amount to help Wales. I would hate to think of the state of the Welsh economy had it not been for Japanese investment in the 1980s. There are strong links between the two countries. I was delighted that the former Japanese

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ambassador, Mr. Hayashi, made a memorable visit to Monmouth a couple of years ago; I trust that it established good links between Monmouth and Japan.
I have visited companies in the past couple of years that have developed a world reputation for their products. Last Friday, I went to the Mitel telecommunications factory. I was impressed by new developments in information technology that could be of great benefit in education and health care, including a remote district nurse service which would be particularly useful in rural areas. Television and interactive IT can be used to monitor old people and others in isolated areas. That would be a tremendous investment, and I hope that Mitel can trial its work in Wales.
I have also visited Nimbus, which is involved in advanced technology and makes CD machines that are exported across the world. Fairfield-Mabey manufactures bridge girders which are exported to developing countries across the world; it works with the Department for International Development to try to get infrastructure investment into other countries, which is to its credit. Ocean Resource develops installations for the petro-chemical industry; and the Cambian Group received the Queen's award for export achievement a couple of years ago—I was delighted to attend the ceremony.
We can also promote Monmouthshire as a sporting venue. I am sure that we all share delight in winning the bid to host the Ryder cup at the Celtic Manor, and give credit to Sir Terry Matthews, Tony Lewis and everyone else who worked hard on the bid on their tremendous achievement. One or two of the holes on the Ryder cup course are in Monmouthshire; when it is expanded, I hope that there will be more. Monmouthshire has other world-famous sporting facilities. We have two of the finest salmon rivers in the world, the Usk and the Wye, and have outstanding cultural traditions.
We want to attract people from across the world to Monmouthshire so that they can use it as a gateway into Wales. However, I want Monmouthshire and all its assets to be enjoyed by the people of Wales. I hope that visitors will appreciate it as they do the north-east and north-west of Wales. We can do more to promote our own areas. It was a great pleasure to serve on the Select Committee, and I commend its recommendations to the House.
6.29 pm
Mr. Laurence Robertson: It is a pleasure to wind up the debate on behalf of the official Opposition. Not many Conservative Members are here, for reasons that are well known to the House—some important elections are going on around the country, at least in England. I do not know what excuse the many missing Welsh Labour Members have, but it is a pleasure to see those who are here, and I congratulate them on having turned up and taken part.
We have heard no fewer than 14 Back-Bench speeches, all of which made an important contribution. Many debates become repetitive, but on this occasion each speech has added something new to the debate, and it has been a privilege to listen to it.
The Secretary of State opened the debate by making several important points, one or two of which I should like to add to. He talked about the benefits of the European Union to Wales. We should bear it in mind that one of the problems involved in the money that comes
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from Europe is that it is no more than recycled money from the very few net contributors to the European Union, of which this country is one. We should not get too excited about what Europe may be doing for Wales. The Secretary of State mentioned that money in the context of objective 1 arrangements. As he will be aware, the report points to problems with delays in objective 1 payments. The Welsh European Funding Office, an executive agency of the National Assembly, is responsible for such payments. Clearly, members of the Committee believe that that issue should be urgently addressed.
The Secretary of State spoke about Wales with obvious pride and stressed what a beautiful country it is. In describing the importance of tourism, he explained why Wales has not been able to promote itself throughout the world as have England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and, indeed, the Republic. His comments about the problems faced by Wales were useful and gave a good background to the subject, although that does not mean to say that we should let the matter rest there.
The shadow Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans), made several practical points. At times he was somewhat controversial, which is not unusual for him. In discussing the cost of the Assembly building, he suggested that the money might have been better spent on some of the more important functions of government in Wales.
My hon. Friend also covered matters relating to tourism, such as people's ability nowadays to travel abroad very cheaply. It sometimes costs more to drive to and park at the airport than to fly to certain elegant settings in Europe and beyond. That problem should not be underestimated. I speak as an Englishman—I say that before anyone else can—but I have spent many weeks and months travelling Wales and have enjoyed many holidays there. It has recently become obvious to me that fewer people are doing that because it is so easy and cheap to travel abroad. My hon. Friend put his finger on an important point and, characteristically, suggested one or two ways in which it might be addressed—for example, by improving airports.
My hon. Friend touched on the problem of ITV Digital, which has unfortunately hit Wales very hard. I want to return to that in a few minutes.
The hon. Member for Clwyd, South (Mr. Jones), who chairs the Welsh Affairs Select Committee, gave a comprehensive and useful outline of the report. It was interesting to hear about the number and quality of the people he invited to give evidence, one or two of whom, if they had turned up, would have attracted a record attendance at the Committee. It is sad that that did not happen. He also listed several people who have Welsh ancestry, and pointed out that many people have Welsh ancestry but do not recognise it. That was an important point. He also mentioned several things that are associated with Wales. Again, it is perhaps unfortunate that that is not fully recognised.
I like and admire the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) a great deal. As ever, he made an entertaining speech full of good points. He mentioned the aerospace industry, which several other hon. Members discussed. It is also important to my constituency of Tewkesbury, where several aerospace jobs have been lost. There have been many aerospace mergers,

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but there are also many opportunities. It is therefore important for the United Kingdom, especially Wales, to grasp them.
It is important for aerospace companies in this country to work on a level playing field. We hear so much about the level playing field for agriculture, but it is no less vital for aerospace. We must ensure that our competitors do not receive benefits from their Governments that the Government do not give ours. I am asking not for handouts to aerospace companies—far from it—but for them not to be disadvantaged when competing with companies abroad.
Lembit Öpik: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it would be helpful if Ministers agreed with Rhodri Morgan, the First Minister, on the aerospace industry? He was present at the formal launch of the aerospace group for professional and business people directly related to aerospace in Wales.
Mr. Robertson: Yes. I am sure that the Minister will respond to that point. The hon. Member for Montgomeryshire talked a great deal about his constituency as well as Estonia. I am sure that he will not be described as the hon. Member for Estonia for long after today.
The hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) spoke about Wales's wider role in human rights. She made an extremely interesting and important contribution.
The hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd)—I hope that I have pronounced it correctly—[HoN. MEMBERS: "Well done."] Since serving on a Standing Committee with the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr. Thomas), I have been practising pronouncing some Welsh names. The hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy spoke about tourism and the need to market Wales better. That was a recurring theme of the debate.
The hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Caton) spoke about the importance of perception and stressed the amount that Wales has to offer.
My hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr. Prisk) spoke about Wales positively, but he outlined several matters on which we need to concentrate, including the need for greater research funding and capability, which one or two other hon. Members also mentioned. He referred to Wales's low profile in the business world, but he also mentioned the Millennium stadium, which adds credibility and brings recognition to Wales. That is extremely positive.
My hon. Friend spoke about entrepreneurial problems: "entrepreneurial" is difficult to pronounce and I understand why the right hon. Member for Swansea, East (Donald Anderson) suggested that it was not an English or a Welsh word. My hon. Friend also talked about the low rate of start-ups. There is a need in Wales and throughout the United Kingdom to stop standing in the way of small businesses and to encourage them as best we can.
The hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) mentioned involving more politicians in spreading the news about Wales throughout the world and using the many celebrities that Wales can boast. He made an
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extremely important point about his regret at the running down of Wales, and also about—I hesitate to use the term—racist or strongly nationalist remarks. Perhaps he felt that they were damaging. He drew support from all sides about that. It is a problem in most countries, but it does not help Wales and he was right to draw attention to it.
The hon. Member for Caernarfon (Hywel Williams) discussed secondments from business to promote Wales abroad and made many other detailed points. The hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) made a lively speech that reminded me of his excellent maiden speech, in which he broke with convention by being controversial and party political as well as entertaining. Whenever he is on his feet in the Chamber, I shall do my best to listen to the important points that he makes. He stressed how important it is to remember that we are here not only as MPs from Wales, England, Northern Ireland or Scotland, but as Members of the United Kingdom Parliament, and that we should do all that we can to promote the United Kingdom as a whole as well as promoting all its parts.
The hon. Member for Aheravon (Dr. Francis) made some important points about Welsh history. As someone who is interested in history, I believe that it can make the present and the future come alive, and I found his remarks most refreshing. The hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Kevin Brennan) rightly condemned the hooligans at the football match last night. He also talked about Cardiff's bid to become the European capital of culture in 2008. While hon. Members from different areas might have conflicting interests in relation to which city achieves that title, I certainly wish Cardiff well.
The right hon. Member for Swansea, East reminded us, in a characteristically interesting speech, of Welsh stars, and of famous and important people, whom we really should use more, as has been suggested.
The hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami) spoke about the importance of the aerospace industry and the Airbus. He also mentioned the textile industry, about which I, too, have some concerns, having worked in it for many years, in north Wales and elsewhere.
Last, but not least, the hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. Edwards) spoke about the attractiveness of his area—which he insists is Welsh—and about the importance of Japanese investment in Wales.
Mr. Edwards: Knowing the hon. Gentleman's interest in horse racing, I was delighted to welcome him to Chepstow race course. I know that the hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) has also attended. Does he agree that Chepstow is not only the capital race course of Wales but one of the finest in Britain?
Mr. Robertson: I certainly agree. I understand that there are plans to build another race course in Wales. If that goes ahead, I wish it luck. It is always a privilege to visit Chepstow race course, even though I usually—not always—come away a lot poorer, but, in another way, much richer for the experience of having been there.
It is important to recognise the investment made not only by the Japanese but by the Americans. That kind of investment adds to the international flavour that we all want to see in Wales. I was rather disturbed to discover the extent of the decline of inward investment in Wales—I was not aware of the extent of it until I researched this

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debate. The levels used to be a lot higher than they are now. They are still impressive when compared with the population size, but it is a matter that we need to address.
We also need to address the problems of agriculture, which is also in decline. All these things declining is not very good. As the hon. Member for Rhondda (Mr. Bryant) pointed out in an intervention, it is important that we put out good-news stories about Wales. By way of an analogy, I take a great interest in Ethiopia. The ambassador for Ethiopia always tells me how important it is for his country to get the right image across. Ethiopia is not just about desperate people suffering starvation and disease; that is not the sum total of the country. He feels that it is important to get across the right image for his country, and it is important to do the same for Wales.
We need to address the problems of agriculture. My hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley was right to say that there should be a public inquiry into foot and mouth disease, which was as devastating for Wales as it was for so many other areas. It is also important that farmers and others working in agriculture should be allowed to diversify. We often find, however, that they are blocked from doing so by the rules of planning. I am sure that that applies throughout the United Kingdom, and it is another issue that needs to be addressed.
I would like to make many more points, but time is against me. This has been a very interesting debate, and I shall finish by echoing the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley, who suggested that, having concluded this debate, we should not just go away and forget about what has been said. Let us use many of the points that have been raised on both sides of the House for the benefit of Wales.
6.44 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Don Touhig): We have had a wide-ranging and comprehensive debate on Wales in the world, covering the report and a significant range of recent achievements. The debate has been of a high standard, which again proves that we have a good story to tell about Wales. That is a warning to the whingers and knockers to stop talking Wales down. We should see the Severn bridge as a gateway to markets for Welsh goods, not a drawbridge to be pulled up, shutting out the rest of the world.
"Wales for the Welsh" is a slogan that bears deep menace for all of us in the House. It is important for Members of all parties to confront that evil, because it will not help Wales and Wales in the world, and we know what will happen if we go down the road of challenging who is and who is not Welsh. Who decides who is Welsh?
We all know what happens when a country thinks that the only issue to be tackled is who fits in ethnically and who does not. It starts with people saying, "If you can't speak Welsh, you're not Welsh." Then comes, "If your grandparents weren't born in Wales, you're not Welsh." It ends with. "If you're not white, you're not Welsh." Those are the dangers. Our parents' generation took up arms against those who advocated a new dark age in Europe. They defeated them; we must ensure that we defeat such people in this generation.
We can look back with satisfaction on the fact that our own Welsh Development Agency first spread the message that Wales is a great place to grow a business and a great
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place to come and invest. The agency's success over the past quarter of a century is shown by the fact that it became the template for the regional development agencies that followed. Indeed, the WDA has opened up new horizons for Welsh business and the Welsh economy.
Furthermore, in Wales Trade International we have an organisation with an ambitious programme of trade missions for the coming year. I was proud and pleased to meet its delegation in the Czech Republic in March. The entrepreneurial spirit of the small firms that took part encouraged me, and I can tell the House of some successes. Mr. John Wyn Williams, chairman of Vaynol Estates in Bangor, said that the visit was a great success for his organisation, resulting in five contacts. Terry Gorman, of Swansea-based HPA Property, which specialises in repairing and maintaining glass structures, had 15 meetings. Four companies that he met want to establish partnerships, while another wanted prices immediately for work to be carried out.
Lyn Powell, from RPS Chapman Warren, a Cardiff-based planning and environment consultancy, has been asked by the Brno city authorities to submit plans to relocate the central railway station and redevelop the site. Suzanne Wilkinson, from Invest E in Welshpool, was immediately asked for quotes for her software products by a non-governmental agency involved in waste management. The visit was a success and I pay tribute to all who took part. I was impressed, too, by my welcome in north Bohemia and, in particular, in south Bohemia, when I visited a small town called Pisek. Tucked away in the local museum was a display of art by Welsh artists.
Wales can be proud of its tourism industry and the bodies that work hard to promote Wales as a tourist destination. The British Tourist Authority has nine core campaigns running at the moment. They were all developed in consultation with the Wales Tourist Board and they feature considerable Welsh content. Everyone in Wales feels pride when they see the imaginative WTB advertising campaign promoting Wales—the big country.
Those campaigns capitalise on Wales's core strengths of being a country that inspires and that is welcoming and passionate. We have a rich heritage of poetry, song, legend and mystery as well as wonderful and dramatic countryside. We also have a rich industrial heritage. Let us not forget that we spearheaded the industrial revolution, and that Welsh coal and iron are the two products that changed the world in the 19th century.
Wales can be rightly proud of its achievements in developing creative industries, which a number of colleagues mentioned. Now we seek to make an impression on the world through high-tech companies, the expansion of information technology and the creative and performing arts. We can and do attract high-tech companies involved in research and development. When considering where to locate its European headquarters and its research and development facility, General Dynamics received a consultant's report, which was, it told me, completed with apparent academic rigour. It strongly advised General Dynamics against coming to Wales. Following a little prompting from me and from others, the company located itself in Oakdale in my constituency in the Welsh valleys. Only this morning, the human resources director told me that it had had no problem in recruiting highly skilled, high-quality staff in Wales. It had not had to headhunt; it had used job fairs and other

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conventional means of attracting a work force, and had secured people with the right qualifications and the right chemistry for the company.
General Dynamics, incidentally, is now forging ahead with a major research and development initiative, in partnership with the university of Wales in Cardiff.
Last autumn I visited Cyfle in Cardiff bay. Cyfle is a company engaged in training for the film, television and media industry, and, thankfully, is well supported by S4C. I also visited the International Film School at Newport, where it was brought home to me how important the film and television industry is to Wales. Those two centres support and nurture the creative and communications industries in Wales—industries that employ many people through the three television networks we have in Wales, and will be important to Wales in this 21st century.
Our communities, too, benefit from Wales's greater capacity to be outward-looking. They benefit from twinning arrangements, for instance. My own children attended a comprehensive school that was twinned with a school in Germany, and my constituency and many others have twinning links with European towns. Blaenavon, in the constituency of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, is twinned with one of the world's best wine-producing areas, in Bordeaux. I commend it to Members.
All these experiences serve to broaden the horizons of our people, and to boost their confidence in their ability to handle what is different and then use that to improve their quality of life and that of their families. It is improving the quality of life and increasing our people's prosperity that bring us all to the House of Commons.
The world is our market, culturally and economically. Wales has seen enormous changes in its economic fortunes in the past few years. The strong economic policies introduced by this Government have sustained us well, even in the tragic and awful aftermath of 11 September. We have one of the strongest and most robust economies in the western world. Our economy is growing at a rate of 2.25 per cent. a year, faster than the economy of any other G7 country. There is strong consumer demand, which I see when I travel around Wales, and our unemployment is at its lowest for 27 years. That is a remarkable achievement.
Mr. Evans: The Minister mentions unemployment. Will he and the Secretary of State work with the Assembly and the WDA to ensure that Pembrokeshire receives inward investment following the collapse of ITV Digital?
Mr. Touhig: The hon. Gentleman can be assured that that will happen. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has had discussions with fellow Cabinet Ministers and other members of the Government, with Members of the Assembly and with others to try to overcome the awful problems now being faced in that part of the world.
We heard speeches from my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd, South (Mr. Jones), the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik), my hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd), the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd), my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Mr. Caton), the hon.
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Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr. Prisk), my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane), the hon. Member for Caernarfon (Hywel Williams), my hon. Friends the Members for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies), for Aberavon (Dr. Francis) and for Cardiff, West (Kevin Brennan), my right hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East (Donald Anderson), my hon. Friends the Members for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami) and for Monmouth (Mr. Edwards) and, of course, the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr. Robertson).
The hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) made his usual robust contribution, but I thought it negative at first. He rose at 1.47 pm, and it was 2.2 pm before he said anything positive, when he admitted that Wales was a jewel. He went on to make some important points about regional airports. My colleagues in the Department for Transport, Local Government and the Regions will soon publish reports on their investigation of the valley and how we can develop regional airports across the United Kingdom and in Wales in particular. The hon. Gentleman also mentioned Atlantic college, which makes an important contribution to education in Wales. I can tell him that Education and Learning Wales has discretion to fund support for scholarships.
My hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd, South has done a superb job in leading the Welsh Affairs Committee, which produced the report that prompted this debate. He spoke about the problems we experience as a result of stereotyped perceptions of Wales and its people, and helpfully suggested answers to the questions posed by the report. We are indebted to him and his Committee for an excellent job.
My hon. Friend mentioned the importance of exchanges between staff working in the Assembly and Government agencies with those working in our embassies and agencies abroad. That is encouraged by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, and a number of colleagues who work in the Assembly are currently on secondment in Brussels. My hon. Friend also mentioned the celebration of St. David's day. The FCO encourages all our embassies to organise events celebrating our national saint.
My hon. Friend referred in particular to the British Tourist Authority's efforts and involvement. The three-year funding agreement with the BTA and the Department for Culture, Media and Sport includes a target for increasing the proportion of additional spend that the BTA delivers through visits outside London.
The hon. Member for Montgomeryshire was right to stress the importance of selling Wales. He pointed out the successes that other countries have had in promoting their identity, including Estonia. He made some good points about promoting Wales through the performing arts. I hope that, when it is completed, the millennium centre will be a focus for that.
My hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley was right to remind us of Wales's important contribution to internationalism. She also reminded us of her childhood and how important it is that we educate ourselves about other countries. That breaks down barriers and fears.
The hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy made a number of important points about ensuring that Wales is promoted as a tourist destination. Recently, I had a meeting with the Wales Tourist Board, and I have offered the use of the House to promote Wales as a tourist destination.

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The hon. Gentleman mentioned the awful problems that foot and mouth caused the tourism industry and the whole of Wales. Initial indications are that we are overcoming those problems and that tourists are returning. In the next few days, I will write to him about a number of other matters that he raised.
The hon. Gentleman mentioned that the Secretary of State and I have made just one trade mission in 22 months. That is true. Our visit to the Czech Republic was a success. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman may laugh but companies in his part of the world have benefited from that trade mission. We should not knock that. It is good for Wales and for Welsh business. The Secretary of State has also visited the Republic of Ireland, Brussels and Spain. He has been very active in that regard.
My hon. Friend the Member for Gower made an important point about the perception of Wales overseas. The hon. Member for Hertford and Stortford made a thoughtful contribution, which those on the Conservative Front Bench may benefit from reading. It was useful and important.
My hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd highlighted the importance of the profile of Wales in north America. As we all know, north America was discovered by a Welshman. He spoke of the importance of allowing the language not to divide us, but to unite us. The hon. Member for Caernarfon was right to say that we must speak up for Wales at all times. He referred to the importance of training in tourism. We must ensure that we promote that.
My hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore was right to say that we must seek to change people's perception of Wales, a point also made by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon, who reminded us of the strong links between Paul Robeson and Wales.
My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, West referred to Cardiff's bid to become the European city of culture. We all wish the city every success in that. My right hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East reminded us of the
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many famous people who have had links with Wales. It was good that he did that. My hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside pointed out the importance of north-east Wales as a major area of manufacturing, where companies can meet all the problems that the economy faces. My hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth brought his knowledge of the Committee's work to bear and said how important it was that we promote Wales abroad.
As I have said, we have heard many important contributions. It has been a very good debate. It has shown that we can make and have made great strides in Wales. The devolution settlement has given new impetus to the way in which we govern ourselves and manage our affairs and key public services.
Wales is making a significant contribution in a European context. It is attracting inward investment and increasing its capacity for international trade. It is developing and promoting its tourism products to appeal to an increasingly wide range of visitors. It is raising its profile around the world in terms of culture, its language and its arts. Indeed, a group of Welsh artists will be exhibiting in Chicago in the coming months.
Devolution means less introspection. It means being more outward looking and having greater confidence in ourselves. The National Assembly, working in partnership with the Government and Parliament, can promote Wales widely around the world. That unity and partnership bring many benefits to Wales, and of course it is beneficial that we are part of the fourth largest economy on the planet. It is important that we provide opportunities for debate, so that we can solve the problems that we face as a country.
We have proved today that Wales in the world is not a bad issue to debate. The hon. Member for Ribble Valley suggested that we might return to it on many other occasions. Perhaps we will. As I said at the start of my speech, the standard of debate today has been very high indeed. It has given us the chance—
It being Seven o'clock, the motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.

Housing (Edmonton)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mrs. McGuire.]
7 pm
Mr. Andrew Love: I am grateful to have secured this evening's Adjournment debate and I apologise to my hon. Friend the Minister for keeping her so late on a Thursday.
I raise this as a constituency issue, not on behalf of any individual but on behalf of all 1,849 of my constituents—the most recent estimate that I have—who have raised housing or housing-related issues with me since 1997. Sadly, I have been unable to assist most of them. The difficulties are illustrated by a number of recent cases. I should stress that these are average cases and not the most extreme examples.
Mr. and Mrs. K-W, who have three children, have been living in bed-and-breakfast accommodation since March 2000. Mr. K-W is in a very poor state of health. They have several concerns: they have no privacy because their landlord continues to enter and leave the property as he chooses; they cannot plan for the future as they do not know when they will be rehoused; and they pay £100 a month to keep their furniture in storage and the local authority pays £850 a month for their accommodation. In their case, work would not pay as they then could not afford their current accommodation.
Turning to the private sector, Mr. Campbell, who has an 11-year-old daughter, lives in a one-bedroom flat that is almost uninhabitable, yet if he chooses to leave he will be declared to have made himself intentionally homeless. The environmental health department has tried to assist him in dealing with his landlord, but has had no joy. His daughter, who lives with him, has no privacy and nowhere to study, and her health and education are suffering.
In the council sector, Ms Q lives with her partner and three children in two-bedroom accommodation. Her three children—two boys and a girl, two of whom are in their teens—sleep in the same room. The youngest child, a girl, suffers from severe asthma and often keeps them all up all night. The oldest boy has no privacy and his education is beginning to suffer.
Those are just some of the cases that illustrate the deterioration in housing provision in my constituency. We can look at that in a number of different ways. Let me start with affordability, given the announcement two days ago that we have just had the highest monthly increase in house price inflation since records began, at 3.4 per cent.
Let us consider the average owner-occupier in a flat or maisonette in my constituency. At the beginning of 2001, such a flat would have cost £94,000 and average gross earnings were £26,000. It is simple to work out that, assuming that they could borrow on a multiplier of 2.5 times income, the average owner-occupier in my constituency would require a deposit of some £29,000. Assuming that they could find a sympathetic bank, they would have to borrow about 3.5 times their salary in order to purchase an average flat. Even those at the top 10 per cent. of earnings would require a multiplier of 2.25 times their salary to buy average accommodation in my constituency.
I have taken figures from this week's local press on the private rented sector. A one-bedroom flat costs £140 a week and a three-bedroom terraced house costs nearly
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£200 a week. A person on average earnings would have to pay one third of their gross weekly income to rent an average two-bedroom flat in my constituency. Even those at the top 10 per cent. of earnings would be paying a fifth of their income in rent.
A recent study carried out by my local authority showed that, of those deemed to be in housing need, 95 per cent. could not afford either to rent in the private sector or to buy a property. That has done two things: first, it has put enormous pressure on the social rented sector; and, secondly and perhaps just as importantly—in some ways even more importantly—it has reduced movement from the social sector into owner-occupation or private renting. Such movement has simply dried up for people in my constituency.
The result of all that has been an explosion since 1997 in the numbers featuring in housing stress statistics. Homelessness acceptance has risen from 550 people to 1,230, and the number of those in temporary accommodation has risen from 1,134 to 2,327. Even the number of those using bed-and-breakfast accommodation has gone up from 122 to 287. That is against a backdrop of an inadequate supply of new accommodation locally. In the three years from 1998 to 2001, 567 new units of accommodation were completed, yet in that same period, 706 properties were sold under the right-to-buy scheme. I do not want to raise that issue in this debate—it is very sensitive—but urgent steps need to be taken to restrain the right to buy. Otherwise, the situation in London and especially in my constituency will continue to deteriorate.
We are paying a very high price for the problem. We are paying it economically, with the mismatch of skills and jobs—everyone is well aware of the problem of key workers; we are also paying the price socially, in terms of education. I have spoken about some of the problems of my younger constituents—the impact on their health of living in bed-and-breakfast accommodation and the family breakdown that regularly results from housing stress. We must therefore take such issues extremely seriously. I should like to suggest a number of ways in which they can be addressed.
I believe—I know that the Government support this—that we must end the scandal of bed-and-breakfast and bed-and-breakfast annexe accommodation. Therefore, I welcome the setting up of the bed-and-breakfast unit. I recognise the need to co-ordinate action across the capital to disseminate the best information and best practice available. However, for the unit to be successful—I note that it will exist only until the end of 2003—we must set it ambitious targets. I should like to hear the Minister's comments on that.
I recognise that the provision of permanent accommodation will not improve significantly in the very near future, so reducing the use of bed-and-breakfast accommodation will mean substituting other temporary accommodation. I commend the Shelter scheme on developing private sector leasing, under which it suggests that we could increase the number of private sector, leased temporary accommodation units by 10,000. I hope that the Minister will be able to comment positively on providing the necessary support, which will of course significantly reduce local authorities' rental costs.
The second issue that I want to consider is that of maximising the amount of new, affordable accommodation through the planning system. My local

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authority, like many others, has a target of 25 per cent. of affordable accommodation in any new housing development. I note that the Government are consulting on a Green Paper on planning obligations and have suggested introducing tariffs. I welcome that suggestion for a number of reasons.
I accept that we needed to extend the tariff regime not only to housing development but to commercial development, and I am pleased that that has happened. I welcome the fact that it can take the form of either cash or kind, but I want to express just a little concern—it is expressed by many—about our willingness and ability to continue to achieve mixed communities as a result.
The most important point that I want to raise about the consultation is twofold. First, it is important that the tariff be allowed on any size of development; there should not be a minimum size. Secondly, when the tariffs have been introduced, it is critical that they are adequately monitored to ensure that we achieve increases in the amount of affordable accommodation, especially in the capital.
We must also use innovative ways of increasing the amount of new affordable accommodation. I commend to the Minister the scheme initiated by my own local authority—the comprehensive development initiative—which, over the next couple of years, will develop some 2,000 new units of accommodation on existing council-owned lands. It uses several mechanisms to achieve that, including proper consultation with its tenants and ensuring a positive aspect for everyone involved in the development. It will require a contribution to the approved development programme from partners in the housing association movement.
That brings me to my final and most important point, which is critical to the future of my constituency. We desperately need to increase the supply of affordable accommodation to address the acute shortages that exist in my local authority, which is probably the worst affected in outer London, and throughout the capital. I welcome the funding for that purpose in the current round of the comprehensive spending review. This year, some £500 million has been allocated for new accommodation in London, and I welcome that. Indeed, my local authority has been able to double its programme this year. I recognise and welcome the fact that, in the three years of that plan, 100.000 new affordable units will be built.
I also welcome the fact that next year will see an even more significant increase in the funding available for new accommodation. However, because of the bleakness of the situation in my constituency and across London, I question whether that amount will address the real needs and stop any further increase in housing stress against the backdrop of escalating construction costs. We all know about the skill shortages and the capacity constraints that are beginning to emerge, and we recognise that it is becoming increasingly expensive to build in the capital.
I have read the estimates that various academics and others have produced about the housing need in Greater London and in high-demand areas throughout the country. However, we must address housing stress, which will take up resources. I have a few suggestions. First, we should maintain the programme in the comprehensive spending review in 2003–04 and, if possible, increase that level of funding in the future. That is the only way in which we will begin to address the housing need. Secondly, the Minister should look carefully at the share of the housing
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investment programme that comes to the capital. We all know about the controversy surrounding the index of local deprivation, which has meant that the proportion of the HIP going to high-demand areas of the capital has not increased. Indeed, it may have decreased. If we are to deal with the great pressures on housing in the capital, that must be reviewed as a priority.
My constituents should, and will, demand nothing less. Otherwise, they will continue to languish in appalling bed-and-breakfast accommodation, inadequate private sector accommodation or even overcrowded social housing. They recognise that the Government have set priorities in health and education, and they know that other parts of the country have housing problems.
I welcome the recent report from the Select Committee on Transport, Local Government and the Regions on empty homes, which exposed a real scandal. I also welcome the important investigation into affordable accommodation that is about to be undertaken by the Select Committee. I think that it will show the acute need that exists in my area, and across the capital. Addressing such matters must be a priority for the Government. Otherwise, I shall remain impotent when faced with my constituents' housing problems.
7.15 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport, Local Government and the Regions (Ms Sally Keeble): I begin by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton (Mr. Love) on securing this debate, on what is clearly an important issue for everyone in Edmonton. Today is a most appropriate date for this debate on a key service such as housing, given that the local government elections are being held.
I am very aware that my hon. Friend has taken an active interest in this subject for a long time—indeed, he was interested in it long before he entered this House. I know too that he is doing a great service for his constituents by raising the profile of a problem that faces many people in his area.
Housing problems dominate the surgeries of all hon. Members, and are often the most difficult and the saddest that we encounter. I sympathise with my hon. Friend and—more to the point—with his constituents, given some of the problems that need to be resolved. They include overcrowding and the pressures of living in bed-and-breakfast accommodation.
The Government are obviously acutely aware of the problems. We are very concerned about the sharp increase in the number of homeless households, in London and elsewhere, being placed in temporary accommodation or in bed-and-breakfast units. Over the past five years, the number of homeless households in bed-and-breakfast accommodation has risen to nearly 12,500. Most of those homeless households—nearly 8,500—are in London. In Enfield, the borough covering the constituency of my hon. Friend there are more than 2,300 households in temporary accommodation, of which over 300 are in bed and breakfast. That figure is the second highest in outer London.
The Government are concerned about the quality of life of families living in temporary accommodation and bed-and-breakfast units. We are especially worried about what happens to the children, given the well-documented and well-charted impact on health. We are also aware of

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the bad effects of repeat moves, and of the effects suffered by people in overcrowded accommodation. We are also aware of the financial constraints on local authorities to manage temporary accommodation and bed-andbreakfast units.
Although there has been a rise in the number of homeless households in accommodation recently, the Government have taken action to respond very quickly, introducing a series of measures and establishing new units. I shall speak at greater length about those later. However, the figures for London overall are still well below what they were 10 years ago. The Government have acted to intervene and deal with the problem before it reaches the crisis proportions evident in London 10 years ago.
I shall talk first about the general issues and then move to the specific solutions being considered for Edmonton. I shall also deal with the matters that my hon. Friend raised.
My hon. Friend was right to note that the Department has established a homelessness directorate, which will bring together and lead a number of Government initiatives aimed at tackling homelessness. The directorate is responsible for taking forward the work of the former rough sleepers unit, helping to sustain the reductions in rough sleeping achieved over the past two years.
That means continuing to help those vulnerable people who remain on the streets. It also means continuing to rebuild the lives of those who have already been helped away from the streets, particularly through schemes to offer training and employment opportunities and a real chance of independence. It also means building on the work of the unit to prevent those most at risk of sleeping rough from reaching the streets in the first place.
The directorate also includes the Government's bed-and-breakfast unit, which has a clear remit to work with local authorities such as Enfield to help reduce homelessness and the number of people in bed-and-breakfast and temporary accommodation. The unit has held meetings with a number of agencies working in the sector.
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State recently gave a commitment that by March 2004 local authorities will ensure that no homeless family with children has to live in bed-and-breakfast accommodation except in an emergency, and then for no more than six weeks and only in accommodation of a suitable standard. Some £35 million will be available to help meet this commitment in 2002–03. The bed-and-breakfast unit is currently discussing with local authorities like Enfield, which has a high level of bed-and-breakfast usage, their individual action plans to meet this commitment. While the unit should spearhead initiatives and find solutions to the problem, the service provision is still at local authority level.
My hon. Friend referred to annexes, an issue about which the Government are also concerned. I will make sure that he receives details of the thinking and decisions on that issue in writing. The problem is localised and restricted to a number of specific local authorities.
Tackling homelessness involves working across Departments. That is why the bed-and-breakfast unit will also be looking at the wider issues of access to health and
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other services for those placed in this form of accommodation. The Department for Work and Pensions has announced changes to housing benefit rules worth around £10 million to boost incentives for private sector leasing by local authorities. That deals with one of the concerns expressed by my hon. Friend.
One of the directorate's first responsibilities was to produce a national homelessness framework, within which the Government will work in tackling homelessness and look to their key voluntary, statutory and private sector partners to play their part in tackling homelessness.
The directorate will also be responsible for ensuring the effective implementation of the Homelessness Act 2002, which provides stronger protection for those who become homeless and also ensures that local authorities such as Enfield and their partners take a more strategic approach to tackling and preventing homelessness.
We will be issuing a revised statutory code of guidance on allocation and homelessness, reflecting changes brought about by the new Homelessness Act and the proposed priority needs order. We will allocate additional resources to help local authorities deliver the new priority needs order which, as I am sure my hon. Friend knows, will give young people the rights to housing for the first time and to be treated as homeless. It will also give rights to other people. I expect that it will lead in the short term to an increase in the number of homeless people although in the longer term it will ensure that we meet the real and often hidden housing needs of people up and down the country.
My hon. Friend mentioned housing costs, which leads me to the problems of supply and demand. The need for housing in London is rising sharply. Current projections for London suggest a growth of 26,000 households a year between 1996 and 2016, but only about 18.000 new dwellings are being built each year and only 4,000 of those could be termed affordable.
If we are to have any prospect of tackling London's shortage of affordable housing, and the problems that my hon. Friend referred to in Edmonton, the first priority must be to increase the rate of new build. This will require an innovative and radical approach from the Government, the Mayor, local authorities, community leaders and others. A key element will be a much stronger drive to redevelop existing sites to provide mixed-use, high-quality and higher-density housing. My hon. Friend is right about the impact of changes in the planning system. We recently published a Green Paper setting out our proposals for long-term reform of the planning system, but there is a great deal that we can do to simplify and speed up the process.
My hon. Friend is also right about the need to look at the issues surrounding planning gain and the way in which we provide and develop integrated housing schemes. I realise that there are concerns about our ability to continue to provide mixed communities, but it is essential that we do so. The supply of housing is a problem and there is also an issue about sustainable housing. I am sure that my hon. Friend does not want to go back to the time when London saw the proliferation of monolithic, single-tenure housing estates. Most of them are being pulled down because they simply did not meet people's housing aspirations. That is one of the strongest arguments for the Government persisting in getting mixed communities instead of the old monolithic housing estates.

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The trend of rising homelessness, which increases pressure on the social housing stock, and the housing needs of key workers, require innovative approaches to provision. Of course we need to look at many other issues affecting the delivery of affordable housing, including funding, attracting private finance, using public sector stock and public sector land and encouraging industry and employers to respond to the challenge.
I understand that the London borough of Enfield is taking that approach through the comprehensive development initiative. Some 2,000 homes are to be built on brownfield sites, including disused garages and open spaces, over seven years. That initiative is being delivered in partnership with registered social landlords and local residents to develop good quality affordable homes for local people. The land, owned by the council, is disposed of in return for 100 per cent. nominations. Funding has come from the Housing Corporation and private sector match funding.
As well as encouraging the fullest use of identified brownfield sites, there may be scope for greater regeneration of existing rundown properties and to improve the local environment, especially in areas with worn-out dwellings and surroundings. Again, I understand that the London borough of Enfield is taking that approach in Edmonton, through the major regeneration scheme—the Edmonton partnership initiative—which my hon. Friend mentioned.
The initiative is centred on community involvement and on the transfer of over 1,300 council properties to two housing associations. It includes the phased demolition of three 25-storey tower blocks, as well as improvements and major repairs to each residential property in Edmonton. It also involves working with local people—traders, and the private and voluntary sectors—and aims to improve the shopping, transport, environment and social and economic conditions in Edmonton. It is a good example of a successful partnership, and I am sure that it will help to ensure that we have not only good homes, but sustainable communities.
I am pleased to note that the London borough of Enfield is also supporting the Government's starter home initiative and, by working in partnership with housing associations, will provide assistance to key workers. About 72 teachers, 14 police officers and 86 health staff will benefit from that initiative in Enfield.
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My hon. Friend mentioned capacity problems, particularly in the building industry, and the problems that that would create in trying to build the number of homes that are needed throughout London. That is a problem not just in London but throughout the country. The high wages and skills shortages in London are attracting building workers from all over the country to the capital.
Just as housing schemes in London are finding it difficult to get the right number of skilled builders, in the low-demand areas—for example, in Liverpool and elsewhere where building is taking place to regenerate some of the very poor-quality, low-demand properties—schemes are also being held back by labour shortages because those areas have lost all their skilled workers to London.
The Government are acutely aware of the problems that that is creating and are working closely with the industry and others to boost the number of people—especially by attracting people from sectors of society that traditionally have not worked in the building industry, such as women and people in the black and ethnic minority communities, to try to improve the number of skilled people in the building industry.
Of course there are severe pressures on housing in London, but we also have to consider carefully the problems throughout the country. The Government have such a commitment and have funded programmes to meet the housing problems that have been identified not only in high-value areas in London, but in the low-demand areas in the midlands and the north of the country.
For all those initiatives to work, there must be sufficiently strong local leadership and a can-do mentality among all concerned—whether in the private, public or voluntary sectors—to drive through the necessary changes. I believe that that already exists in many parts of London; of course, we must encourage it where it does not.
I am sure that my hon. Friend will play an important part in ensuring that there is a strong can-do mentality in his constituency and that the local authorities and others will work together to meet the housing needs of the local community. This debate has highlighted some important issues, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising them. If he has any questions remaining, I should be very happy to write to him about them.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at twenty-nine minutes past Seven o'clock.

Preamble
[SIR MICHAEL LORD in the Chair]

Women and IT
Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting be now adjourned.—[Mrs. McGuire.]
2.30 pm
The Minister for E-Commerce and Competitiveness (Mr. Douglas Alexander): The Government welcome the opportunity to debate this important issue. Information and communications technologies are perhaps the defining technologies of our generation, and to an increasing extent they pervade our lives and work.
Current estimates suggest that servicing the nation's ever-increasing demand for ICT provides jobs for more than 1 million people in the United Kingdom, but when one examines the profile of the IT work force, one is immediately struck by how few women work in the industry. Women comprise nearly half of the overall work force and slightly more than half of the population, but they account for only one fifth of the work force in IT—sadly, that is a declining trend—and for less than 10 per cent. of high-value-added jobs such as software engineering.
That is highly disadvantageous to women, because it means that they miss out on opportunities to earn the higher wages available in the IT sector. That is arguably another facet of the digital divide that, unless it is bridged, threatens to entrench inequalities between the sexes and within communities. It is also disadvantageous to business and to the wider economy.
An IT industry dominated by men harnesses only half of the talent and creativity available. That is a cause for concern in an industry that, despite current economic conditions, will in the long term have a growing demand for skilled labour. The Institute for Employment Research has forecast that, through a combination of expansion and replacement demand, the IT, electronics and communications industries will need more than 1 million people to fill jobs between 1999 and 2010.
Addressing the under-representation of women in IT is a top priority for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry both in her departmental capacity and as Minister for Women. However, in describing the Government's response, I shall talk as much about what other Departments, particularly the Department for Education and Skills, are doing as about what the Department for Trade and Industry seeks to achieve. That reflects the Government's view that we face a complex challenge that demands a joined-up response.
The Government are determined to play their part in helping to reverse the serious under-representation of women in IT jobs, working with partners in business and education. In "Opportunity for all in a world of change", last year's enterprise and skills White Paper, we stated our ambition that the UK should match the best of our competitors with regard to women's employment in IT. We want to open up to women the
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same opportunities in IT as are enjoyed by their male counterparts. We want them to be able to seize those opportunities on an equal footing. However, we do not underestimate the extent of the challenge.
I draw hon. Members' attention to recent research commissioned by the DTI, the Department for Education and Skills and the women's unit on women's participation in IT learning and employment, entitled "Women in ITEC Courses and Careers". The study covers women's participation in IT, electronics and communications. It reveals that compared to a number of other countries, including the USA, Canada and Ireland, the UK is not performing especially well in terms of the proportion of women working in IT and related high-tech industries: for example, in the US, women account for a fifth of the high-skill, technical roles in those industries, whereas the figure for the UK is only 9 per cent., with far more women taking lower skilled, non-professional occupations.
We must take a comprehensive and long-term approach if we are to be successful. High impact, sustainable solutions are required if we are to persuade more girls and women to consider IT as a career option, and we need to support them through appropriate education and training relevant to their particular circumstances. I shall now set out some of the major elements of our holistic approach to the challenge.
Within our communities, we must first ensure that everyone has equal access to IT. We cannot afford to allow any section of society—whether women, the unemployed, lower-skilled workers or people who face language or cultural barriers—to be excluded from those technologies. We are on target to have 6,000 UK Online centres in operation by the end of the year to provide training in and access to ICTs, in particular to deprived communities.
Recently, I visited a family centre in my constituency, Paisley, South. It has child care facilities in one room and computers with direct access to the internet next door, where training is provided, primarily for single mothers. I was struck by their hunger to learn, their interest and their appetite to engage with the new technology, but it became clear from my conversations with those women that if the child care facilities were not in the same building, they would not be able to gain access to the technology, despite their determination to do so.
We need to encourage more girls and young women to consider careers in IT and to develop the knowledge and skills needed to succeed. In England in 2001, about 24,000 girls achieved A to C grades in GCSE computer studies, compared to 32,000 boys. In the same year, about 4,000 girls achieved an A-level in computer science, compared with a little more than 13,000 boys. However, girls out-perform boys in the subject at GCSE and A-level. The position is similar in higher education, where only a fifth of computing graduates are women. Women make up only 15 per cent. of engineering graduates, but they perform especially well in that discipline, women having come top in the British Computer Society professional examinations for the past two years.
A factor that needs to be recognised is that too many talented girls are put off by male stereotypes of science, engineering and technology. That is why it is important

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that successful women in science and technology-based careers are highly visible, to act as role models for the coming generation. We are providing core funding to the WISE—women in science and engineering—campaign for the next three years, in partnership with the Engineering and Marine Training Authority, the Engineering Employers Federation and the Engineering and Technology Board. Our aim is to help enhance the impact and effectiveness of WISE by, for example, bringing the gender issue into the mainstream of science and engineering initiatives, especially in relation to young people.
The DTI and the DFES are also working to establish an extensive network of science and engineering ambassadors seconded from industry to act as role models and mentors in schools across the country. We want as many female ambassadors as possible to enthuse girls at school about IT, science and engineering. Given that the challenge is for industry as well as the Government, I am pleased to say that business is responding well. At the DTI's "Women in IT" conference earlier this year, IBM and Dell—two major employers—pledged to support their employees in becoming ambassadors. IBM alone is targeting 200 of its staff to work within the programme. We hope that other businesses will rise to the challenge and follow IBM and Dell's example.
We also need to ensure that schools and teachers have the tools and equipment they need to help girls to develop IT skills. We are already investing massively in IT for schools: more than £1 billion is available between 2001 and 2004 to equip schools, colleges and other places of learning across the country with ICT, including assistance to purchase computers, but we must go further. As part of our wider strategy to raise standards at key stage 3, which covers 11 to 14-year-olds, we are piloting a new programme to improve the teaching of ICT, with a view to rolling it out across England in the coming academic year. We are focusing on strengthening teaching and learning in ICT as a discrete subject in its own right, and will work to enhance teachers' pedagogic skills and subject knowledge. That investment needs to be maintained if we are to achieve our ambitious targets for 14-year-olds. We expect that, by 2007, 85 per cent. of 14-year-olds will achieve level 5 or above in ICT.
We know that girls are more likely than boys to turn away from IT, even after achieving good results at GCSE, so we need to find new ways to engage girls and to persuade more of them that IT is worth pursuing. That is why the DTI and the DFES have supported e-Skills UK to develop what we call the computer clubs for girls programme. Through a set of CD-ROMs delivered directly to the school, the clubs will provide a learning environment for girls that enables them to develop professional IT skills while undertaking tasks and projects that are of interest to them, such as creating magazine front covers with their photographs on them.
The clubs are a worthwhile development and the IT industry is excited about engaging in the programme. One company from the United States, Macromedia, has agreed to make its Flash web animation software free to schools when used in the club activities. I understand that e-Skills UK is talking to other software providers
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about donating software to the clubs. The clubs concept will be rolled out initially in several schools in the south-east with the support of the South East England Development Agency, which is to be congratulated on the initiative. That is an important first step in making the clubs a reality across the country.
The DTI has also funded the development of workshops to inspire 13 and 14-year-old girls to consider careers in IT. The workshops are hosted by IT businesses, and 10 companies have so far agreed to be involved as part of the ambassadors programme, which I mentioned earlier. The girls get to meet employees and to see that IT professionals do not in fact conform to some of the stereotypes that one reads about in the newspapers. Feedback from the girls has been enthusiastic and positive. The success of several pilot workshops in the south-east means that we are thinking about rolling the programme out more widely.
We have already supported an industry dialogue with the makers of television soaps and dramas. The idea is to show programme makers, who can influence public perceptions, that IT is not solely the domain of men. In time, we may see more realistic television portrayals of the IT industry and of the people who work in it, in all their diversity.
Girls and boys need to be able to access high-quality careers advice to find out what opportunities a career in IT offers and what skills and training they will need. With the support of DTI and the DFES, e-Skills UK has developed an online resource to fill exactly that need. The IT Compass website, which has been promoted through the media and specialist magazines, contains information about IT careers. It describes how to get relevant work experience, and there is a special section for women who are interested in jobs in IT.
IT Compass connects young people with role models and with case studies of people who already work in the industry. It seeks to break down some of the stereotypes and to show what opportunities are available to people with different talents and aspirations. There are also advice and support materials for careers advisers, so that they can offer students the best and most up-to-date guidance on working in IT. I am pleased to say that there have been more than 500,000 hits on the site since its launch in January 2002.
The site will complement and support the Connexions service, which is the new support service for all 13 to 19-year-olds. Connexions will offer young people integrated advice, guidance and personal development opportunities to help them make a smooth transition into adulthood and working life. It will also help to tackle gender stereotyping, which can drive women and men to think too narrowly about their career options. Several Connexions partnerships have linked up with the Equal Opportunities Commission to launch the "What's Stopping You?" campaign, which will highlight the damage that gender stereotyping can cause and work to change people's perceptions of men's and women's jobs.
We are taking action to encourage women to join the next generation of IT professionals, but there is a generation of women of working age who already have IT skills or want to develop them. Many are mothers who want to work but cannot find IT jobs with the flexible working arrangements they need to balance

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work and their responsibilities as parents. The industry is, after all, often characterised by a rather macho image and a 24/7 culture. Business must face up to its primary duty to introduce working arrangements that enable women and men to balance work and family responsibilities.
The Government, too, must play their part. We are introducing a light-touch regulatory framework through the Employment Bill, which supports our commitment to create highly productive, modern and successful workplaces through fairness and partnership at work. The Bill will deliver a balanced package of support for working parents, while reducing red tape for employers by simplifying the rules governing maternity leave and pay. It will also make it easier to settle disputes in the workplace.
In particular, the Bill will help working mothers by affording them an entitlement to six months paid maternity leave and a further six months unpaid maternity leave. It will also provide for a total increase of more than 60 per cent. in the rate of statutory maternity pay and maternity allowance from £62 to £100. More than 300,000 mothers each year will benefit from the increase in maternity pay to £100 per week and from the increase in the period of maternity pay to 26 weeks.
The Bill will also introduce for the first time new rights to adoption leave and pay and to paternity leave and pay. Paternity leave will be available to fathers following the birth of a child, or to one parent when a child is newly placed for adoption. A married couple who adopt will be able to choose which partner takes adoption leave. Adoption leave' will reflect maternity leave, with six months' paid leave and six months' unpaid leave. Paternity leave will be two weeks' paid leave.
The measures in the Bill will also facilitate flexible working. The Bill will give parents of children aged under six and those of disabled children aged under 18 the right to apply to work flexibly, and it will place a duty on employers to take requests seriously. That new right will take effect in April 2003.
We are also helping to develop and disseminate good business practice in work-life balance arrangements. Our work-life balance campaign has amply demonstrated the business case for introducing work-life balance arrangements. Improved productivity, greater staff retention and reduced absenteeism can all flow directly from effective work-life balance policies. BT, for example, instituted its "freedom to work" pilot project, which allowed employees to propose their own working patterns. The patterns piloted included occasional home-working, working full-time over four days, and working a combination of long and short days. Employees also tried banking time to qualify for longer periods of leave to meet their caring responsibilities. The company has reported improvements in productivity and greater retention of skills as a result of its initiative.
The work-life balance challenge fund provides funding to businesses to help them to understand and introduce successful arrangements such as part-time, term-time and other flexible working practices. In January, we announced moneys of up to £1 million in addition to the existing fourth round of the fund, specifically to support flexible working in the IT, telecommunications and electronics industries. I am
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pleased to say that we received a good number of interesting proposals and will make the final selection of successful projects shortly. We hope that the lessons learned by individual businesses will be adopted by the IT sector more generally in due course, and we will work with partners to disseminate information, key messages and good practice.
It is vital that we get our approach right and provide women with the opportunity and motivation to work. As many as 50,000 women in the UK with a degree relating to science, engineering or technology are currently not working. Of the women scientists and engineers who return to work each year, many will not take up a related occupation. That represents a massive waste of potential and talent and a serious blow to the nation's productivity and competitiveness. To help we have introduced a pilot mentoring scheme to support women scientists and engineers in the workplace, particularly those women who return to the workplace after a career break. The programme involves the direct participation of major companies, such as Ford and AstraZeneca.
Mrs. Caroline Spelman: Does the Minister accept that many highly qualified female scientists and engineers might consciously choose to stay at home with their children? I hope that he does not regard that as a waste. They benefit the nation by raising their children.
Mr. Alexander: The Government's principal objective is to give people a realistic choice. We are determined to break down any barriers that inhibit women from returning to the workplace, so that they have a realistic choice and can exercise their judgment depending on their individual circumstances.
Like other sectors, IT suffers from a pay gap between men and women. That is not good for the economy or for the interests of employers or employees. Last year, the Government asked Denise Kingsmill of the Competition Commission to undertake an independent review of what actions business and others could take to close that gender pay gap. The Kingsmill report was published last December and makes an important contribution to tackling the pay gap challenge. It chimes with existing measures, including key elements of the Employment Bill and the work of the fair pay champions in supporting equal pay initiatives in their sectors. We have accepted and are taking forward the bulk of the Kingsmill recommendations, although we do not want to introduce any new regulations on the back of the report.
We also recognise that some women and men may require particular support if they are to capitalise on the opportunity that IT affords them; for example, the unemployed, disabled people, and ethnic minorities. Ambition: IT is the Government-business partnership aimed at unemployed people through the new deal programme. It encompasses a range of initiatives, including a national pilot that will train unemployed people as IT technicians. The training provision is just being set up, and we hope to see the first of Ambition: IT new dealers begin their courses later this year. We want as many unemployed women as possible to take part. Training will be made available in such a way as to enable participants to accommodate their child care and other family responsibilities.

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Courses provided through learndirect give adults easy access to ICT learning opportunities, including ICT skills, at home, in the workplace and at learndirect centres nationally. There are currently more than 1,300 centres nationwide, offering more than 500 different courses. Last year, more than 55 per cent. of learndirect learners were women. That is more than 136,000 women, of whom 113,000 were studying ICT courses.
The further and higher education sectors are also playing their part. Hon. Members will be aware of the Government's £100 million investment in developing vocational centres of excellence in further education colleges in England. The network of centres will comprise a strategic mix of high-quality local, regional, sectoral and national specialisms, including IT, to offer young people and adults the enhanced vocational learning that they need to succeed in the modern knowledge-driven economy. The DFES announced a further £40 million of new money for the network only this week.
Let me give an example. Lewisham college in south-east London is a beacon college which last year was also designated one of the first pathfinder centres of excellence in IT. The college's school of computing and IT caters for 4,000 learners every year: 40 per cent. are women, 60 per cent. come from ethnic minorities, and 60 per cent. are aged over 25. Lewisham has looked hard at its provision for women and has increased women's take-up of courses by providing courses during school hours and offering personal development sessions for learners, supported by an all-female development team and coupled with help in job-search techniques and work experience.
To increase the availability of high-quality ICT learning still further, the Government have now invested £25 million in encouraging regional consortiums of universities, colleges such as the one I mentioned, and businesses in England to establish new technology institutes. They will offer ICT courses, mostly at technician or intermediate level, but with progression routes to degree level and beyond. The Higher Education Funding Council for England has been considering applications for NTI status from various regional consortiums and I understand that the successful bids will be announced shortly. We expect there to be two new technology institutes in each English region by 2004–05.
I hope that it is clear that the Government are investing in a comprehensive package of measures to give women equality of opportunity in IT, as in other high-tech sectors of the economy. However, I do not want to leave the impression that Government can overcome such challenges alone; business, schools, colleges and universities have an equal responsibility to do all they can to engage women in IT. Time does not permit me to cover the many excellent regional and local initiatives supported by industry and education that are making a vital contribution—I am sure that hon. Members can cite examples from their constituencies; nor can I pretend that our work is near completion. Much has been done, but much remains to be done. However, our co-ordinated and joined-up approach represents a real chance of long-term success for women in IT.
2.50 pm
Mrs. Caroline Spelman: First, I have to admit that I was surprised by the title of the debate. When I was asked to contribute to it as my party's spokesman on women, I could not work out whether it was to be a celebration of women's equality in IT skills or a lament for the opposite. I now have the curious impression that it is to be a debate about a perfect world in which, if all the women were shackled to a computer, everything would be rosy in the garden. Speaking on behalf of my sex, I do not see things that way.
The title struck me instinctively as rather patronising—we would not, for instance, have a debate about women and telephones, so why have one about women and information technology? I have noticed that the researchers in my office, whether female or male, seem to have identical IT skills. Those skills are a function of the fact that IT was automatically part of their education, which took place 20 years after my own. Young men and women do not see any difference in their respective skills. I test marketed my theory that this was a rather spurious debate on my husband, who is a management consultant. He looked blank and said that information technology is, quite simply, gender neutral.
However, I dutifully did my research and most of it pointed to the fact to which the Minister has alluded, that fewer women than men choose to specialise in computer studies. It is important to recognise the distinction between those of us whose IT skills constitute managing—or not—that piece of equipment in the office that could transform our lives and those who want to study, work and advance the science and the industry.
Fewer women than men are employed in information technology, electronics and communications after graduation. The proportion of women employed in the industry has fallen from 16 per cent. a couple of years ago to 13 per cent., as the Minister said. We can only guess at the reasons. It could be choice. My party favours choice, which is why I underlined the fact that women who are highly qualified in IT might choose to have a career break so that they can raise children. They might feel at that point in their lives that raising children is as important—if not more so—than being at the cutting edge of the industry.
Perhaps the majority of women do not find IT very appealing. I do not know how many people of either sex would relish wrestling with such subjects as local loop unbundling, which is apparently on its last legs. None of my research suggested that women are worse than men at grasping IT skills; rather, it has traditionally been the fate of the sciences that women are not naturally attracted to them as a career. During my research, the expression "computer nerd" came to mind. I hesitate to say whether it conjured up a masculine or a feminine image—that is best left to hon. Members to surmise.
Women have traditionally been attracted to jobs that involve interacting with people rather than with machines. To many women, working at the cutting edge of IT and the computer industry can appear a cerebral and lonely activity, and not one that women who enjoy socialising, mixing, conversing and generally interacting with people might choose to pursue. I only speculate about reasons why women might choose an alternative career to IT.

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When the debate was announced, I heard from a company that has taught IT since 1964. That company states:
"Our experience regarding the proportion of women taking our training courses with the aim of entering a career in IT has been consistent with the industry as a whole. Our latest statistics show that 27 per cent. of our initial enquiries are female—but only 11 per cent. of those who go on to enrol with us are female. Back in the 1980s when the industry standard for women in senior IT roles was 19 per cent. our proportion of enrolments was 19 per cent. We are now given to believe that the comparable figure now has fallen to 11 per cent."
The company could not offer any particular reason for that. The people at that company sounded a little bemused when I told them the subject of the debate. They wondered what had caused it to be raised, but were none the less grateful for an opportunity to air the subject of IT training. It has been mooted that IT is not female friendly because of the tendency of IT managers to recruit in their own image, and there is evidence from the training industry to substantiate that. Whether the problem is related to role modelling gives us food for thought.
The report from the Select Committee on Education and Skills on the Government's individual learning account debacle was published earlier this week. In theory, the scheme could have encouraged and helped women back into a career structure late in life. That was one of the aims of the account when it was announced in the Labour manifesto in 1997. The account was cheap, simple and accessible, but as the report says, it was open to the most appalling abuse from unscrupulous providers. The scheme was not regulated, which means that even now, five months after the Government suspended its operation, there seems to be no clear picture of the extent of the fraud.
The report's judgment on the way in which the account was monitored is damning. It suggests that the Government failed to learn from the mistakes of the past. No check was put on the providers to give good value for money, and there was no incentive for the customer to complain. There are four whole pages of conclusions and recommendations in the report, which totally condemns the notion that the problems arose from the delivery of the account. Where have we heard that criticism before? I feel sure that all hon. Members can cite constituency cases that alerted them early on to the problems that would ensue.
The ILA scheme seemed custom built to introduce people to IT—indeed, many of the courses were geared to computer studies and were attractive to women who had missed out on IT training earlier in their lives. The potential of the ILA brought to my mind the testimony of a contributor to a document called "Choices", which I prepared in the last Parliament. I shall read the lady's contribution because it may shed light on the disparity in the uptake of IT skills and suggests that the scheme could have assisted people in her position if it had worked properly. I shall not give her name because she asked to remain anonymous. but she likes to be known as Elizabeth. She wrote:
"My children have all grown up and left home and I became aware of the fact that there were basic skills I did not possess. Specifically, there was the new (to me) area of IT. I am not terrified of computers, I just can't use them as I have never been taught to! It seemed a sensible thing to try and learn. Obviously, these courses weren't available when I was at school and college, and I
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haven't had the opportunity since. It wasn't only finding a course, it was finding one I could afford as a non-earner and that was at a convenient time and in a convenient place. My voluntary work commitments meant I was unable to take up the one I did find and I have had difficulties finding another. I am not looking forward to becoming a technical wizard, I just want to be able to do useful things, such as writing letters and typing lists. This would be very useful within my work."
That is an illustration of another problem that has so far not been mentioned, which is that the differential between men and women in mastering information technology has less to do with gender than with age.
I do not want to sound ageist. Like Elizabeth, I had no information technology training at school, and I am sure that I am not the only Member of Parliament who sometimes has to rely on her children to set the video recorder and get the most rapid results from the computer at home. My 11-year-old daughter is a far better desktop publisher than I am. It is a plain fact of life that the younger generation who have grown up with the new technology can learn and retain the skills that they need more effectively than others can. To them, information technology is second nature. That is good, because those skills will become increasingly important at home and in the workplace.
It is essential that women are not left behind in learning IT skills, because those skills can be used in many different professions. However, it is not desirable that women should be encouraged to work in IT industries if that is not where their natural inclinations lie. They should have a genuine choice.
Mr. Alexander: I hesitate to disrupt the congenial atmosphere of the debate, but does the hon. Lady accept that there are any structural barriers to women exercising those fundamental choices? She suggested that the tenor of the debate was patronising, but passed over the statistics I quoted that show that even young women taking GCSE and A-levels show a disinclination to enter the profession? Does she accept that there are any structural inhibiters, or are we merely seeing the outcome of the exercise of a multiplicity of independent choices?
Mrs. Spelman: I am simply concerned that the Minister wants to explain away the differential in factual terms. He may be overemphasising the structural barriers. In matters of choice, it is right to stand back and say that in some respects women are better adapted to some professions than to others. There are many examples of women predominating in other professions—nursing, for example. There are male nurses but generally women find themselves in the caring roles; such roles come naturally to them, and they enjoy doing that kind of job. We should not fight like crazy to strive for a 50:50 balance between male and female nurses.
Mr. Alexander: The hon. Lady said that the topic of the debate came close to being patronising. Is not the suggestion that women have an inclination towards caring professions and a disinclination towards working with machines news to the many outstanding female scientists in this country? Does she accept that although a multiplicity of choices is being exercised by women as to the jobs they take, the endurance of the pay gap

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between men and women alerts us to the existence of structural inhibiters in terms not only of pay but the choice of profession?
Mrs. Spelman: I do not know whether the Minister is married, but I suggest that he goes home and talks to the female members of his family about their preferences. He will find, on the whole, that the women in his extended family have chosen or have been expected to perform the caring role. The fact that society does not sufficiently appreciate the value of women's caring role in society is a separate matter for debate.
Mr. Alexander rose—
Mrs. Spelman: I will not give way again on that point, but I will take up a matter that the Minister mentioned in the first of his two interventions—the equipping of women.
The theory underlying the debate is that providing women with additional IT training will definitely lead to better job prospects. We must be careful with that theory. There is no question that some of the access courses provided for younger women, especially those who have missed out earlier in their education, can play a beneficial role in getting them on to the first rung of employment. In my constituency, which contains four of the most deprived wards in the country, programmes run alongside crèche facilities, to enable young women who do not have any qualifications to take the first step in mastering the use of a personal computer. However, that is a long way from the reality of a well-paid job at the cutting edge of IT. I spoke to those women, and it is clear that they recognise that the first step towards understanding IT—something as simple as word processing—is the one that might get them a relatively simple clerical job. It is the means to an end rather than an end in itself.
Mr. Tom Harris: The hon. Lady is in danger of being complacent. Earlier, she stated that women are naturally drawn to the caring professions. Are not women encouraged to enter such professions because they are relatively low paid, and discouraged from entering ICT jobs because they are well paid?
Mrs. Spelman: I do not see it that way. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman should consult his male friends. Men do not usually volunteer to undertake caring roles within the family; on the whole, it is the woman in the relationship who takes the children to the doctor's surgery or the playground and picks them up from school. Such tasks have tended to fall to the female in the partnership, and that is not a choice related to pay. Women consciously prioritise looking after those for whom they feel responsible within their families.
I am far from complacent today. A serious problem is looming. I can see where the Minister's is coming from, and there is no doubt that the IT revolution has opened up jobs for women. Call centres that have been the salvation of some domestic incomes—in the north-east, for example. However, I am deeply concerned about the consequences of that.
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During a recent visit to India with Oxfam, I witnessed the incredibly rapid increase in the outsourcing of call centres. All British Airways complaints are now dealt with in Bombay. In the back office of HSBC bank, I saw for myself how all banking inquiries are dealt with in Delhi, although they appear to be answered and settled in the United Kingdom. At the height of sophistication, it is possible for one end of the office to be handling calls from New Orleans, with the Indian operator speaking in a true New Orleans drawl and knowing the day's weather conditions in that town. The customer would have no idea that the call had been taken in the heart of central Asia.
The serious underlying problem is that those call centres are manned by Indian graduates who earn between £2,000 and £3,000 per year. Graduates in the United Kingdom would have enormous difficulty competing with those rates of pay. I fear that it is inevitable that more and more of our computer-based service operations will be relocated to countries such as India. At a conservative estimate, 20,000 such British jobs have been outsourced to India in the past year.
Mr. Alexander: I appreciate the hon. Lady's generosity in giving way for the third time. She raises an important point about the call centre industry—a focus of continuing interest and application for me. I recently met representatives of the Call Centre Association to discuss the issue. Does she accept that her position is not wholly logical? There is great merit in having this debate, because if there is a risk of low-value call centre jobs moving offshore because of competition based exclusively on cost per employee, the only sustainable future for the UK's call centre industry is to continue the evolution that is already under way and move up the value chain. People must have great familiarity with ICT if they are to work in the contact centres of the future.
Mrs. Spelman: I believe that there is consensus between the Minister and myself on that point. However, the Government should take a long, hard look at the realities of the marketplace. We must not fall into the trap of training people—women, in this context—for jobs that will ultimately disappear. There is no disputing the logic of that. The only way to recover from the marketplace revenue sufficient to meet the cost of living in this country is by constantly upskilling. The underskilling of many parts of our work force will condemn many families to a significant loss of income unless an important shift is made.
In my view, learning should start at school, right at the grass roots. There is no better place to learn information technology skills. They are a great deal more difficult to grasp and retain the older one gets, as I well know. I question whether women and IT is a clearly definable subject or a rather spurious combination that overlays more deep-seated problems of underskilling, underachievement and underperformance in school. I suspect that if debates like today's are still taking place in the House of Commons in 20 years' time—we will probably have a virtual House of Commons by then— the title is more likely to be "Women and Pencil Skills—a Lost Art?"
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Nicholas Winterton): Order. Before I call the next contributor to this important

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debate, I must say that not only shall I chair the debate for the rest of the day but I shall listen carefully to what is said, because I am an honorary vice-president of the Royal College of Midwives. So, too, is the hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead (Harry Cohen), and we both attended the college's conference this week. I will take great interest what right hon. and hon. Members say.
3.11 pm
Mrs. Joan Humble: It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Meriden (Mrs. Spelman). I agree with much of what she said, but not with her introduction and conclusion, because I do not believe that the debate is spurious. I think that it is important because, as the Minister said, the issue of women and information technology presents challenges for the Government. I am here to challenge the Minister. My speech is half a page long; that tells hon. Members what I know about information technology. My hon. Friend the Minister has to convince women like me to get involved in IT.
I notice that there are few women here. I know that today is a very important day, but this is an important subject, and we need to attract women to debates such as this. More years ago than I care to remember, when I graduated in history after having specialised in ancient and mediaeval history, I thought that the quill pen was far too advanced an innovation. Using computers and all the other equipment to which we now have access is therefore not one but two, three or even four steps too far for me. There are many women like me.
The debate is important because I complacently assumed that things were getting better and that younger women and girls in schools were learning more about information technology. I am sure that there were computers when I was a girl, but one of them would probably have filled the whole Chamber while being able to do as much as a modern PlayStation. I never had access to computers. I thought that girls would now know how to plug them in, switch them on, and do all the other things that we are supposed to do with them— and I am sure that the Minister will tell me what those things are.
When my daughters were at school, they learned how to use computers and they feel at ease with them, so I was surprised to hear the Minister's statistics. I, too, have some statistics that show that all is not rosy in the garden. We need to be aware of that and not assume that young girls and younger women have more opportunities than I had. We must encourage them, for the reasons outlined by my hon. Friend the Minister.
In 2000, only 13 per cent. of workers in information technology in this country were women—down from 16 per cent. in 1999, and a lower proportion than in Canada, the USA and Ireland. Women's participation in IT education and employment is now declining in many areas. We must not be complacent; we need to ask why that is happening and see what we can do about it. As my hon. Friend the Minister has said, women are missing out on job opportunities, so I welcome the fact that the Government are tackling the issue cross-departmentally.
Many under-16 girls still in education continue to have a negative attitude toward computers. That attitude is not apparent in primary schools, nearly all of
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which now seem to have a room devoted to computers, and boys and girls use them equally. However, in IT and computer studies in secondary school, just as they do in many science subjects, girls feel that they cannot participate equally with boys. We need to make sure that girls in secondary schools are encouraged to participate.
We must involve IT training and education in the learning and career choices that young women make post-16. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will discuss that with colleagues involved in the new Connexions service, especially as that service will offer a much more intensive package of support and advice to young people from more disadvantaged backgrounds, who need extra support. I hope that no assumption will be made that young people cannot access jobs and training in IT; they should be encouraged to do that.
Like the hon. Member for Meriden said, with each passing birthday I feel more sympathy for women returners. Many have never had access to computers or learned the skills that today's children take for granted, but I agree that they have developed other skills. Many older women acquire interpersonal skills through looking after their families and juggling family life and work. They develop organisation skills and transportation skills—finding out how to ferry half a dozen children from A to B while simultaneously cooking a meal. Those are valuable skills but, unfortunately, not many employers accept that: they want to see a certificate—some proof that an examination has been passed.
Women need to be encouraged to explore the many learning opportunities that are available to them. Blackpool and the Fylde college—my local college of further education—now has many courses that enable women to learn basic and more advanced computer skills. The college does not set up courses specifically for women, but more and more women are attending the courses.
Older women and returners to the employment market need to know how to operate a computer, but they also need to learn skills to read a computer screen. That might sound absurd to a person who regularly uses a computer, but sometimes people read information from a computer screen and say to me, "Look—you can see X," but I cannot see it. I am used to reading books and papers. Reading information from a computer screen is an acquired skill, especially from screens that have blocks of information in different parts. The skills required are much broader than simply knowing how to plug in, switch on and log on—if that is a correct term— to the computer to access information. People should be taught not to be frightened of computers and to understand that modern information technology can be useful.
My secretary complains about the number of e-mails that she receives on my behalf, but she also tells me that e-mails are very useful. My husband told me recently that he corresponded with a university in America. Once, he would have had to check time differences to see whether the person to whom he wished to speak would be awake when he telephoned. Now, my husband can send e-mails whenever he likes and the man in America can read them when he is in his office.

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Modern technology has many uses and women should be made aware that it can make their jobs easier—it should not be a threat. However, training is vital if women are to get through the front door. Recently, BBC Radio Lancashire organised a community bus that is a bit like a mobile internet café. Radio reporters take the bus to small communities and towns in Lancashire and discuss various local issues with people. People are given the opportunity to climb on the bus and see a computer. They are told, "This isn't scary. Come in. We're your Radio Lancashire presenters. You know us and we're not going to frighten you. You can switch this on and we'll show you how you can access information."
There are many initiatives, and, as my hon. Friend the Minister said, they are not only for the Government to organise. Other organisations can encourage more people, especially women, to get involved in IT. That is why I welcome the initiatives that he outlined to use women who work in the IT field as role models and mentors. If girls in schools see women who work in the information technology field, they might think, "Yes, I can do that as well." There are more computers clubs for girls and we should encourage girls to use them. The women in IT champions will perform a useful role. The Minister gave us several statistics on the number of women and girls who pass GCSEs and who go on to university. We must monitor that and ensure that more girls are encouraged to enter for such examinations.
I agree with the hon. Member for Meriden that the debate should not focus solely on IT jobs for computer experts. Young girls know that they will need computer skills in almost any job. In the dim and distant past when I was a civil servant, everything was done on paper. We used paper files and filled in paper forms. These days, in any civil service outlet, such as the local jobcentre, more work is done with computers. Women who have language and basic communication skills now need IT skills as well to do clerical jobs in the civil service.
I am a member of the Select Committee on Work and Pensions, so I have looked into the development of the new Jobcentre Plus. Lots of modern technology is going into that: more electronic claim forms are being developed, so that the clerk listens to the claimant over the telephone and inputs information to the computer screen. I never did that, but young women who seek that kind of career—and older women who are returners—will be required to do that sort of work, so they need training. The circle is complete.
There are increasing opportunities for women in the labour market, but many of those opportunities require them to have IT skills. They will need those skills for almost any job that they do. That is even true of shop work—take a look at modern shop tills; they are very complicated. There are also jobs for women in IT itself, and I hope to see more and more of them undertaking that sort of work.
If my hon. Friend the Minister can find a very basic course for me, I might step through the door and try it, but he will have to overcome quite a lot of reluctance on my part. In this context, my message is do as I say, not necessarily as I do. Nevertheless, there are lots of women out there in the country who want to do what he is
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saying they should do. They want to go through the door and learn how to get involved in information technology and computers. They want to do that not only for their own personal development, but because there are jobs out there for them to do, and they should be able to do them. I wish them good luck—and I wish my hon. Friend good luck, too.
3.26 pm
Sue Doughty: I stand here as a woman who used to work in IT. I have about 15 years' experience in project management, on both highly technical and very untechnical projects. I am pleased, therefore, that this debate is being held; it is taking place not a moment too soon.
When we talk about the problems facing women in IT, we should take a look at the Government's report on women in ITEC, because it has stacks of statistics that tell their own story. I fully agree with some of the things that the Minister said about the need for action.
I have employed women and men; I have been employed directly; and I have been a contract worker, so I have had lots of experience of dealing with some of these problems, and it is clear to me that, sometimes, being a woman in IT is like being a woman who goes in for politics—women in the Chamber may acknowledge some resonance in that. IT is not a naturally welcoming environment to women. It is not the sort of environment where women feel that they belong straight away. Sadly, I was reminded of that today, as I watched the Minister for Women, at Question Time. A Conservative Back-Bench Member put a sensible question, but she made a slight slip of the tongue: one might have expected the male MPs on the Labour Benches to do a bit of barracking, but it was the male MPs on her own Front Bench who did the barracking, when she was trying to make her message clear.
Sometimes, it is like that for women in IT as well. It is not an easy environment, and things need to be done about that. Women go into IT at their own peril, but taking up that career—or nursing, or anything else—should be a matter of equal choice. That should be the case, as regards the opportunity not only to enter a career, but to rise to the top in it, and to have parity in pay at every stage, because the Government's statistics show that women get fewer of the good jobs and that they have unequal jobs and lower pay at every stage. That is a big problem and I am glad that it is being recognised and highlighted.
Why does it matter so much? It is a real problem. The statistics show that there are 20,000 unfilled IT jobs in the United Kingdom; yet we have an untapped work force that should be pushed into such work, because women are jolly good at it when they do it. They have many skills to bring, some of which men do not bring. I do not want to introduce a gender argument, but women have special qualities, especially in working with other people. Those of us who have switched on a computer and tried to make it work have often wondered, "Who wrote this system? I bet it wasn't a woman, because she would never have done it like that." Some of our intuitive skills work jolly well in the discipline of IT, producing excellent systems that enable people who work under pressure in call centres, for example, to enter information quickly.

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Another set of statistics shows that the number of IT jobs has grown by 50 per cent. over the past five years, creating 336,000 jobs, whereas there was only an 8 per cent. growth in the general work force. Twenty-two per cent. of staff are women, but in 1994, the figure was 29 per cent. That decline is continuing, yet everything suggests that it should not; women are receiving a better education, and more women are obtaining degrees in the field, but it is happening nevertheless. We talk about positive discrimination for women in politics, but we have the same problem in IT. I do not like positive discrimination. I like to think that everyone should get there and that equality will just happen. However, the reality is that it does not.
We must also recognise that as a country we do ourselves no favours. We do not have enough skilled staff and are increasingly reliant on people from overseas. I have worked in organisations that brought in teams of programmers from overseas who subsequently returned to their own country to support the programme once it was developed. That practice is not foolproof. When someone works on the opposite side of the world in a different time zone, the costs involved are different from those in this country. People with support in their own office in this country can pick up the phone to report a problem that, due to the level of service, is solved within a certain number of hours. The call centre may not be able to deal with the problem. Money is also lost when the matter must be dealt with on a night shift or is not tackled until people come in the following day. The circumstances are not always as simple as they might be, although I recognise that with globalisation such situations will occur more often.
Many employers would employ more people in this country if they had the skills. Women are flexible workers and want to do well; they like to do their best. Not everyone wants to work full-time, and not every IT job needs to be done full-Lime. One of the last big implementations that I undertook involved large teams of trainers and support staff, some of whom worked every day, and some of whom did not. There were more women in training, and guess what? Women in IT training receive less than women with the same skills providing support, but they are generally the same people.
IT is a good career for women, and there is no reason why women should not succeed if they have the right skills and are capable when they acquire the skills. They have to be a bit pushy, but the men are pushy, too. We have to get through the barrier of young men employing other young men when they do not need to. We want a mixture of people, which will result in better and more realistic systems being developed, because computer users are not all men; nor are they all young or all old. Greater mixing of teams results in better systems.
Curiously, women do not often enter IT through the graduate route. I worked in one field, curiously enough, coming in to assist, when project management skills were not strong in IT. I used skills that I had acquired in other work, and in other aspects of the project—for example, drawing up the time sheets.
That was a long time ago, but we are gradually picking up skills. Other women become involved because they are the most articulate in the user community. They complain, "Look, you've designed this for me. I don't understand a word of it, and it'll
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never work because you've ignored all the following points." Women are good at such communication. The best thing that an IT manager can do in that situation is to say, "If you can articulate what's needed in the system as well as that, you're doing the wrong job. Come and join us." Many women do, but we forget that that is only the first move.
We leave women in support or low-level jobs, instead of asking what they could do next. That is a problem, and sometimes it is a question of overcoming women's lack of confidence. They need to know that computing is not a black art and that, with training, they will progress. There is nothing to say that men have different brains and can learn computing but that women cannot. However, women sometimes need counselling, care and encouragement so that they can make progress.
What happens in the early years is an issue. We need only consider IT games and how kids play on computers to realise that. Who gets to go on the computer and what are the games about? They are generally about shooting and beating people up, and girls tend not to play them. I was interested to hear about the work for girls projects and I would like to know how they work, because not all girls lean towards computing in the sort of environment that I have described. As a result, they tend to back off, and the home computer gradually becomes dad's or the boys' domain.
The women whom I know in IT talk about a new phenomenon called "Dad's server room". In the old days, dad had model trains trundling round the attic, but now dad has spent £3,000—money that was not necessarily available to mum—on a computer that is set up as a client server. His friends come over to play an interesting game of "Doom" on it and they send messages all over the place, and again women are excluded. We cannot interfere in the family set-up, but we must recognise that compensating activities are needed to counteract some of the inequality that exists in the home.
Mr. Alexander: I am greatly sympathetic to the hon. Lady's remarks. She has highlighted an issue on which I might have spent more time in my contribution: the importance of content, rather than infrastructure. Does the hon. Lady agree that the problem may be not that women have a predilection to work in the caring professions rather than with machinery, but that the software available in the household may not be as attractive to young women as it is to young men?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Before the hon. Lady responds to the Minister's intervention, may I suggest that she moves closer to her microphone? Those who are seeking to take down what is being said are finding it slightly difficult to hear everything that she is saying. I should be grateful for the hon. Lady's help.
Sue Doughty: Thank you for that advice, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
I agree with the Minister that content is important, because for many women it is not the gadget that is important, but what they can do with it to enrich their lives.
There are other problems: one of which is how easy or difficult it is for women to stay in computing. It must be recognised that IT has particular problems because the

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skills move on constantly. It is not even the case that what someone knew last year will be good enough for this year or next year. Almost every six months—three months in some sectors there is something new to
learn, because most people in IT are problem solvers, and every day brings another problem, another system or another piece of hardware. Being away from the subject for any length of time is a major drawback.
Conversely, employers spend large amounts of money training people who then leave. In certain areas, that is a real problem. I shall cite an example, although I am slightly cautious about it, as it concerns a site that my husband set up when he was employed by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to run its IT site at Guildford. I declare that as an interest, although it happened a long time before I knew him.
That IT department had a big problem with losing programmers, so the women who were leaving were asked, "Why are you going and what would it take to keep you?" People in the department had suddenly realised that if they could retain the women, they would not need to keep training new employees and investing in that training. The department wanted to know if it could do more to retain people. In the end, it set up a nursery and an after-school club, because as any woman trying to juggle children, family and career knows, it is not only care for the under-fives that is needed—the school holidays are a real problem. Unusually, the department managed to set up the facilities on-site so that mum or dad came to work and baby or holidaying schoolchild could go there and play with their friends. It was particularly good for the little ones because mum could pop along if there was a problem.
The unit worked well. Before it was set up, the average stay in the job was less than three years and turnover was 25 per cent. a year. The Guildford site was the worst of all the Government sites, but it had spare land and buildings, as Departments often do, unlike most organisations, which tend to buy and sell property as part of their normal activity. The unit was successful from day one in retaining women in the job.
Some women whose children have now grown up are still in the IT department doing excellent work for DEFRA. As the civil service pays lower rates for the same IT skills than commercial organisations, the unit was a vital factor in persuading key staff to stay on. It is worrying that DEFRA is considering outsourcing the whole of that department. Women who were able to pursue a good career knowing that their children were being well cared for are now getting extremely worried.
We have talked a little about training and some of the comments that have been made are very true. Curiously, when we were designing a training course to be used by lots of women, mousing and similar skills were important. The more we can get people designing systems and understanding the barriers between people and computers, rather than merely giving training at ridiculously low prices, the better will be the systems and the training.
The other issue is flexibility for women. I have a big criticism of the Government as regards the cost of keeping up IT skills and the situation with the
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independent sector, contractors and IR35. Women used to be able to work part-time and choose which projects to take up. I did that for some years. It was possible to work on a project, stop when one chose and then start again later. People often need to do that.
Under the current system people in IT are not taxed in the same way as in other businesses. They are independent. People who stay in a project for more than a year and work on-site are not paid to train. They are not paid to develop their skills, which can be expensive; they might have to attend an international training course. The employer does not pay for the computer that employees may have bought to get their skills up to speed on the next bit of hardware because they must always be right at the leading edge if they are to give added value in the project. They are taxed disproportionately compared with someone who describes himself as a business, brings in five people and sets that against his costs. That is a long-standing Government injustice against the IT contracting industry, and it should have been addressed.
We have to get away from the 24/7 culture. There is a temptation for businesses to exploit IT people, and women feel the pinch more than men when businesses try to bring in a project sooner than is reasonable. Instead of employing more people, companies hope that people will work longer hours. In those circumstances, women leave. They say, "That is the last project that I will do. Yes, we had a lovely dinner at the end and there was a bottle of champagne on my desk, but the next project that comes along will be 10 hours a day, day after day, and my husband will be pretty angry that I do not have time for the family." That is a pressure.
I welcome the Minister's comments about maternity and other leave, and the different models and their scope, but we have to remember the skill shift in IT. One of the problems that I experienced as an employer of women who were returning to work was that their previous job was almost certainly no longer in existence due to the reshaping and regrouping of IT projects in response to business needs. We need to recognise the additional work that is needed to bring someone back from maternity leave. Her job may have moved elsewhere and she will need something good to go to. She will also need a catch-up period to get her skills back, because her colleagues may have moved on to another programme or platform.
I agree that there are problems with individual learning accounts and we must get them sorted out quickly. It is an inexpensive source of training, especially for women who are wondering whether to return to work. It has been useful, but statistics show that women have not taken up ILA courses as much as men. However, if they are not available at all, no women will be able to take them up. It is a matter of urgency. I appreciate that the Government must not introduce something that has the same problems as before, but every delay is a delay in someone getting the training that they need for the job that they want.
We welcome the efforts to overcome stereotyping and would welcome more women in the IT industry. There is a challenge in the fact that many IT jobs are a bit anoraky, so women choose not to go for them. However, women must have the right to choose whether they want to be an anorak. Indeed, it might be good for some of the IT anorak clusters to have a few women

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working in them to help them to deliver better systems. We must give women that choice, but we must also ensure that employers recognise that they will never have world-class systems if they overlook such a valuable resource as women.
3.46 pm
Mr. Ian Taylor: I am delighted to take part in the debate. I should make two declarations. First, my initials are IT, and when I saw on the Order Paper that the title of the debate was "Women and IT", I wondered whether it was a forerunner of some headline in next weekend's News of the World. I declare that I have no knowledge of any connection between this debate and any salacious stories. Secondly, and more seriously, I have interests in the technology sector, which are fully recorded in the Register of Members' Interests. However, I believe that none of them has an influence on today's debate.
I have considerable sympathy for the Minister, not least because he has part of the portfolio that I had as a Minister for Science and Technology. I must be careful not to say that that was in the last Conservative Administration, because it was once reported in a newspaper that I was predicting that we had had the last Conservative Administration. I am sure that there will be many more to come, but in the previous Conservative Administration I had part of the Minister's portfolio and dealt with the same issues.
These will be brief remarks, and I must apologise because I had to put back a meeting to take part in this debate and must leave early to attend it.
We can examine the subject on different levels, a couple of which have been mentioned. One is whether women could enter the job market by having skills that young people who are currently being educated regard as natural. As the hon. Member for Blackpool, North and Fleetwood (Mrs. Humble) said, children in primary schools are having a wonderful time learning about IT. They do not regard computers as a threat or even breakable; they just work on them until they find what they want. That is important.
I launched an information technology for all campaign, which the Government have carried on in various forms. It was designed to demystify IT for all the population—not only women—and destroy the perception that computers are used only by other people. Access to the job market for women is a key matter that this debate could consider, and progress is being made on that.
I am concerned more by the problem that is felt throughout the UK of a lack of skills in research and development. That includes technology and, therefore, IT. There is also an under-representation of women in the adding of value in our economy. As my hon. Friend the Member for Meriden (Mrs. Spelman) rightly said, low-skill employment—whether it is men or women in call centres is immaterial to my point—will ultimately be outsourced to countries such as India. As a Minister, I visited Bangalore in India to see what was going on, and I am sure that the Minister has done the same.
My concern is that women are under-represented among technology drivers. This country still has an opportunity to take the lead in that area. Businesses need such skills, and we must develop them in our
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universities. However, women are generally under-represented among graduates in information technology, electronics and communications subjects, despite the fact that they form the majority and a growing proportion of university graduates. That is worrying, not only because women are under-represented—I do not want to patronise—but because it means that there is no proper throughput of skills due to the under-representation of a growing proportion of the population. Women move away from information technology, electronics and communications skills as they structure their education towards a career. In the UK, that starts before entry into higher education. Although similar proportions of males and females study ITEC-related subjects at school, a smaller proportion of women qualify at GCE A-level.
The problem is serious, but there are various ways to help. The Government have sponsored certain schemes—for example, the UK Online action plan contains various suggestions for continuing training for women who have opted out of opportunities to use their added-value skills in industry. There is a role for industry—the pay differential was mentioned—but industry must do more for lifelong learning. That is where the debate becomes almost circuitous, as new technologies facilitate lifelong learning. Computers enable women who must leave industry for pregnancy and the early stages of raising a child to keep in touch with what is going on, as they can access the network of the company that they left. Some companies are introducing family-friendly policies that enable them to do that.
Many organisations, such as the British Computer Society's women's specialist groups, are aware of the problem. The HighTech Women website provides a network for women, even if they have opted out for years. When I was Minister for Public Services and Science, I considered with the Royal Society how scientists could continue their postgraduate and postdoctoral work if they became pregnant. Many grants were structured around a continuity of research, which did not allow for the fact that the pregnancy might not coincide with the development of the research project. I am glad that Dame Julia Higgins has become foreign secretary of the Royal Society. She did much to try to restructure universities' thinking about how they could retain women by enabling them to continue their research and have children. That was important.
We should concentrate on initiatives to keep women in industry, research and the professions. Such initiatives are to be welcomed, not in a patronising "we must do something nice for women" sense, but because the UK will suffer if a disproportionate number of women in our communities are not making that contribution. We have flexible working, distributed learning networks and policies for extending broadband to the home. I used to have responsibility for broadband issues, with which we are wrestling. ADSL technology provides homes with a terrific opportunity to participate in learning programmes and still be part of business while raising a child. There is a new mentality and approach.
I agree with the hon. Member for Guildford (Sue Doughty) that the Government must try to ensure that its taxation and regulatory policies do not prevent people from taking advantage of that working

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flexibility. IR35 is a case in point. The Budget may have introduced a trend towards incorporation for taxation purposes.
Mr. Alexander: I am intrigued by the hon. Gentleman's argument in a speech with which I have great sympathy. His contribution seems to contradict that of the hon. Member for Meriden (Mrs. Spelman), as he recognises that as well as a multiplicity of private choices that will affect the productivity of the British economy, there is also a role for society in the public choices that we make, such as the roll- out of broadband technology, access to the workplace and levels of investment, skills and technology. The issue is a profoundly serious one and not amenable to an accusation of being patronising.
Mr. Taylor: My hon. Friend, who is one of the wisest contributors to the debate in our party, was making the point that there is a danger of it being patronising if it does not address the serious problems. I have tried to keep away from remarks about whether women can use a computer, which is a patronising approach. Some men and women do not know how to use computers, no matter whether games are more man-oriented. We could all recount sexist stories about whether women understand computers. My wife seems to have found much more interesting holidays since she learned how to go online—the tourist industry may have benefited from that, but I am not sure that the nation as a whole has.
I am concerned with how we retain women's interest in career continuity so that our economy does not suffer. We can do that by ensuring that technology is ubiquitous, and that the broadband revolution rolls out, so that people can work from home or at the company. There are many reasons why that is desirable, but one is because of the inevitability that a woman's place will for a time, if she is married and has children, be in the home. Women should not be cut off from productive work during that period. By using IT skills, they can contribute the added value of improving a product, presenting a company's activities or undertaking basic research. The motion is timely, and I am happy to have contributed to it.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Before I call the hon. Member for South Ribble (Mr. Borrow), I should like to thank him for his co-operation.
3.56 pm
Mr. David Borrow: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The debate on women and IT is about women's involvement in technology in general, and in engineering, maths and science. For many years it has been difficult to get an adequate proportion of women involved in those areas at a professional level. Much of the problem is to do with gender stereotyping.
I shall begin by recounting a little of my family history, as an illustration of that problem. My mother went to grammar school and became a shorthand typist, and my father went to a secondary modern and, after an apprenticeship, became a fitter, assistant foreman and eventually a training officer at ICI, training apprentices
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and graduates on graduate training courses. His ambition for me was that I should be an engineer, so I did maths, physics and chemistry and A-level. However, I disappointed him greatly by opting to do economics rather than engineering at university. Ten years later, my sister became an engineer and now works in the engineering industry. That little tale shows the extent to which family expectations of boys and girls can affect their occupations. My father did not expect my sister to be an engineer.
In many ways, the problem of insufficient numbers of women in information technology reflects the lack of women in engineering and similar occupations in the 1960s when I was at school. When I did maths, physics and chemistry at O-level, there was a balance of boys and girls studying those subjects, but at A-level about 90 per cent. of the students were boys. At university, all the engineering courses were heavily dominated by men. When my sister chose to study engineering, there was an article in our local newspaper about how remarkable it was that a woman wanted to be an engineer. She was the only woman studying engineering in her year. Such stereotyping and assumptions that some occupations are only for males make it more difficult for women to enter them.
The statistics on education from pre-16 to graduate level clearly show that the problems in engineering, science and technology also exist in IT. For every three girls who do a GCSE in computer science, there are four boys, so the gap is not great at 16. However, by the time they reach their A-levels, there are slightly more than three boys to every girl, and by graduate level there are four boys to every girl. In the space of five or six years, the position changes from one in which there is not much of an imbalance between boys and girls to one in which 80 per cent. of computer graduates are male.
It would be easy to go along with the view that girls are not predisposed to computer sciences and IT, but the reality is very different. I am not particularly computer literate or very good with computers, but I had experience of them at the organisation I worked for before I came to the House. We installed a computer system to provide word processing and a database, which was quite an expensive and sophisticated operation. Most of my staff were female. All the women with clerical duties, such as typing letters and administering the database system, ended up using the new computer software, and they had little problem doing so. It was the professional staff, such as myself, who had problems mastering computer skills. Ours was a typical administrative office, and we were used to staff running around and typing letters for us. Suddenly, we had to acquire keyboard skills, which we had never had to do.
That taught me a valuable lesson: women have the skills to operate IT, so it is not women-unfriendly. The real barrier is between professional and non-professional jobs in IT. As other hon. Members have said, the majority of staff in numerous call centres, banks, shops and other organisations are female, and those women quite happily and competently operate word processing and database systems. The majority of the people in this country who use IT day to day are women. What barrier prevents them from becoming professional computer operators, instead of using

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software that has been devised, written and prepared by someone else to use in the job that they already do? That is the key question.
I recently attended an engineering conference and listened to a presentation by a woman from the Association for Women in Science and Engineering, which was set up in 1984. At that time, 7 per cent. of engineering graduates were women, but that figure has now risen to 15 per cent. She went through a series of measures that could make the workplace more woman-friendly. One issue was networking. In professional organisations with very few women, the men tend to network among themselves, and the women need their own network to prosper within the organisation. There is also the issue of family-friendly policies.
We also need women who have been successful in IT to act as role models. From Bill Gates downwards, most of the role models in IT are men. The image we have is either of Bill Gates and his millions, or of an adolescent male, who is stuck in his bedroom, playing war games and designing computer software, and who suddenly gets a brilliant job at the age of 18 or 19 by producing a programme that is worth £500,000. If the problem is tackled properly, women will have a better chance of breaking into IT at a professional level than they do of entering a career in engineering, science or maths.
My constituency is heavily dominated by engineering. My father would regard himself as a craft engineer. The traditional image of an engineering company is oily rags, big machines and men with craft skills turning operations or working machines. Traditionally, few women have gone into that occupation, but the balance is shifting. There are fewer jobs at the craft end and more jobs in professional engineering, which require computer skills. There are no longer rooms full of draughtsmen designing things, because designing and testing is now done largely on computer systems, using sophisticated computer software, which allows someone to design an aeroplane, see if it flies, and then alter it a bit.
The whole image of the engineering industry is changing, but young people still grow up with the idea that engineering is all about oily rags and big machines. If under-16s are asked whether they think that IT is a male or female industry, it is clear that the image of IT is very different. In any school, girls are just as likely as boys to be using IT to access information for their projects, make fancy leaflets or play games. The traditional route from GCSEs to graduate level is through precisely the A-level subjects that have been the route into engineering, science and technology—maths, physics and other subjects that have traditionally been male dominated, and which it has been difficult to persuade large numbers of women to study. The challenge is to break the logjam, so that a similar number of girls who study computers, maths or physics at GCSE go on to study the same subjects at A-level and pursue a route into information technology.
Another crucial issue, which was mentioned briefly by the hon. Member for Guildford (Sue Doughty), is the barriers that exist in many industries between professional and non-professional staff. The idea that unless someone has a degree in a subject they cannot become a professional is crucial in respect of engineering and IT. In many organisations, large numbers of women operate sophisticated computer systems, but they are
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not encouraged to gain the qualifications or experience necessary to move from being a non-professional IT operative to a computer programmer or to take more of a leadership role in the organisation. That is holding women back.
It is possible to change the image of an occupation so that women feel that they can compete successfully in it. When I was a teenager in the 1960s, two occupations were perceived as male, one of which was journalism in its broadest sense. The image of a journalist tended to be of a guy with an old raincoat, who drank a bit, smoked a lot and spent time getting information in pubs, and would then be stuck in some garret in central Manchester typing up stories. Since then, journalism and media studies have become occupations that women see as much for them as for men. That has changed during the past 30 years.
The other occupations that come to mind are those in the legal world. In the mid-1960s, the image of a lawyer was of a man. One rarely came across women solicitors or barristers, but probably as many women now go into law as men.
Mrs. Spelman: Not at the top level.
Mr. Borrow: The legal world has changed because there is no reason for barriers. The image of what an occupation is important.
I am convinced that the problems of women working in IT at a professional level should be tackled seriously. Some ideas mentioned by the Minister are useful and helpful. He talked about £1 million towards a work-life balance challenge fund to make it easier for people to work in IT by altering IT policies that were not family-friendly. A little more security on long-term funding of such schemes would be of assistance, so the Government could help.
Image matters, so it would be useful for a few light television comedies or soaps to involve women who work in IT, because the television image of IT is male dominated. I drop that in because of "That's Life", which was on a few years ago and pops up in repeats occasionally. It portrayed several 20-something professional lawyers, women and men. [Interruption.] It was called "This Life". It may have had many non-legal scenes, but it reinforced the fact that the legal profession is as open to women as it is to men.
Occupations shown by the media have much to do with how young people see their future careers. If we do not see women who work in IT in the media, that will make it more difficult for 16 or 17-year-old women to view the IT profession as one that they should go into, and we will continue to lose the chunk of women who take computer studies at 16 but do not pursue it through the age of 18 and on to graduation at 21 and 22.
4.14 pm
Mr. Desmond Swayne: What a pleasure it is to follow the hon. Member for South Ribble (Mr. Borrow). I thoroughly enjoyed his interesting and well-informed speech. I take a slightly different tack, although I agree with much of what he said.
The Minister referred to the report "Women in ITEC Courses and Careers", which was published in November 2001. Several hon. Members have drawn

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attention to the fact that, in 1998–99, only 21 per cent. of computer science graduates were women, but I think that we might attach rather too much significance to that statistic.
For 10 years before becoming a Member, I worked in the IT sector, particularly in the financial services sector. To a large extent, that was the cutting edge, mainly because that was where the investment and the large profits were made developing treasury and risk management systems for financial products. I cannot think of any contemporary of mine, either in my own bank or in the many other City banks, who had a degree in computer sciences. By and large, they were arts graduates, although I accept that a significant proportion of them were mathematics graduates. In that respect, the comments of the hon. Member for South Ribble had great force, but the industry was largely populated by those who acquired their computer skills subsequent to their degrees—as people do in many other disciplines.
I have some sympathy for what the hon. Member for Blackpool, North and Fleetwood (Mrs. Humble) said—indeed, the point was alluded to by my hon. Friend the Member for Meriden (Mrs. Spelman)—which is that computer science has a terrifying jargon. However, it is precisely that a jargon, whose only function is to act as a deterrent to new entrants so that those already working in the industry can maintain their price. It happens in all professions; barriers are erected to exclude new entrants in order to protect the interests of those already in them. Once people crack the jargon, and realise that that is all that it is, IT is like most other professions: most people can do it.
I accept that in some professions we want someone who has had prolonged training. For instance, I would not want people operating on me unless I knew that they were competent and had a great expertise and experience in their discipline. However, for the greater part of modern professional experience, my view is that most people can do it. That was certainly my experience of the computing industry. As someone who had a degree in late mediaeval church history, I quickly discovered that there was a limited demand for specialists on the heresies of the middle ages, and I managed, with some success, to pass myself off for 10 years as an IT professional.
The report includes figures—they were alluded to by the hon. Member for Blackpool, North and Fleetwood—showing that the number of women in employment in the IT industry and the other industries covered by the report declined from 16 to 13 per cent. between 1999 and 2000. That strikes me as rather more worrying, and I am inclined to ask what has gone wrong. My experience of the industry was that it lent itself to women. In the financial sector of the IT industry, there was a disproportionate number of female employees—including those in the most senior positions. Perhaps I was in a quite untypical environment, but I have no reason to believe that that was the case. Women did disproportionately well in that industry, and I am therefore surprised and disappointed at that statistic.
My experience differs from that of the hon. Member for Guildford (Sue Doughty), who saw movement into the industry from the user community. The traffic was
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largely going in the other direction, especially among female systems analysts, who quickly impressed the users with their understanding and skill in interpreting their requirements. Women's ability to sit down and understand requirements and get on well with the people who explain their requirements is much better than that of men. As a consequence, they tended to be poached by the user community. One often found that the IT industry, at least in financial services, was a springboard from which women moved from IT into the industry itself.
The Scottish bank for which I worked was a traditional employer and in many ways a Dickensian institution, but in 10 years we developed what might now be called flexible terms of employment. Those will improve further with the development of broadband, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr. Taylor) drew attention, and of other things that enable home working. The IT industry provides a helpful environment for women to thrive in, especially those with family responsibilities and the need for career breaks. There are many IT activities, such as programming and technical writing, that do not require people to be in the workplace. That trend developed when I was in the industry, to women's advantage, so I am worried about the statistic that suggests a decline in women in employment. I suspect that it may be a blip or that the statistic is questionable, because I find it very surprising.
I share the concern of my hon. Friend the Member for Meriden that the industry has to remain competitive because there is a great deal of competition overseas, especially in the Asian markets. Our bank outsourced the maintenance of what were called "legacy systems", the large batch programmes that were developed in the 1970s and early 1980s. All the maintenance and development of those systems have been outsourced to companies in India, which is a growing force in the IT market. We must take account of that and ensure that our business environment is helpful to IT companies, otherwise fewer men and women will be employed in an industry that is vital for the future.
4.23 pm
Mr. Tom Harris: I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this important debate, especially as it is my first opportunity to speak in Westminster Hall, although that is entirely my own fault as I have been a Member for almost a year.
I begin by welcoming the comments made by the hon. Member for Meriden (Mrs. Spelman), who said how surprised she was about the title of the debate. I assure her that her surprise is as nothing compared to that of my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane), who last night, after more than one pint of beer, looked at me aghast and said, "Are you really having a debate on women and ET?" Clearly, he has been detained on the Floor of the House, or he would have been here.
We should demystify some of the language that surrounds IT, as the hon. Member for New Forest, West (Mr. Swayne) said. Computers are not scary, but simple instruments to use. I was astonished to find how many pensioners in my constituency regularly use computers to access the internet and who do so, after a small

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amount of training, with a great deal of confidence—far more, I dare say, than many of my colleagues. We can always learn from the older generation.
My wife is one of those who have been scared off new technology by people saying that they are afraid to switch on the computer in case it blows up and other such dramatic suggestions. She has therefore decided that I am the only person in the household who can switch on the computer or set the timer for the video. It might be that she is either confused by technology or too lazy to do it herself. Given that she is not here, and that she never reads Hansard, I feel free to speculate.
I have had the privilege of serving on the House of Commons Select Committee on Science and Technology for the past few months. It has discussed asking the royal societies why, as state-funded bodies, they have so few women members. The mere mention of such an inquiry precipitated a huge amount of panicked correspondence in the daily broadsheets. One of the defenders of the royal societies told me that to increase the number of women in those societies would be "to compromise excellence". It is profoundly depressing, at the beginning of the 21st century, that such attitudes hold sway, not only in academia but in industry.
There is no denying that the Government face a challenge in achieving a situation in which women have the same career opportunities as men. That is not to belittle other career opportunities and directions or the choice of the many women who want to remain in their homes. It is simply to say that women should be given exactly the same choice as everybody else.
We have mentioned statistics. Given that more than half of the university graduates in this country are women, we have to ask why only a fifth of computer graduates are women. That is a worrying disparity. The hon. Member for New Forest, West suggested that it might be a blip but I do not see much evidence for that. In 1995, seven years ago, only 25 per cent. of workers in the information and communications technology industries were women. Last year, that figure had fallen to 22 per cent. There is a medium-term decline in the number of women employed in those industries, and I am delighted that the Minister introduced the debate by telling us how the Government are trying to reverse that trend.
It did not have to be this way. The information technology industry—a brand new industry—provided an opportunity to reinvent the workplace. More than any other, it represented the future, yet we seem to have fallen into the bad old ways epitomised by some of our more traditional industries. When I think about my own city, Glasgow, I think of shipbuilding, but there are many other examples of male-dominated industries. I hesitate to name politics as one of them.
What went wrong? We have to go back to the classroom to find out. The Science and Technology Committee has been speaking to teenagers who are about to decide what subjects to take for their GCSEs or who are in the middle of their GCSE courses. In science, there is already a definite disparity between what boys and girls want to study. Even among those who go into science, girls are more likely to want to study biology and boys are more likely to want to study physics. I could be simplistic and conclude that that is because women are more interested in nurturing life and
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understanding how it is created, and men just like to blow things up. However, there is a more sophisticated analysis—
Mrs. Humble: No.
Mr. Harris: That is bit worrying.
There is no point trying to encourage school leavers to study computing science if they are not already familiar with the subject, having had an interest in it at school. It is up to teachers and the Government to find ways to encourage that interest.
The media must take some responsibility for taking a negative view of computer geeks, an expression that was used in the debate. The term "anoraks" was also used; I am not sure whether there are computer anoraks, as anoraks are usually worn outdoors and most computer geeks stay at home in their bedrooms. It is sometimes forgotten that in the early to mid-1990s, before the internet was recognised and used as almost infinite source of information, a communications tool and a source of entertainment, it was largely used by teenage boys to discuss the merits of "Star Trek" and "Dungeons and Dragons", and that image has persisted. Bill Gates, despite his intelligence, his achievements and his wealth, is invariably described in the media as a computer geek. That is the most obvious example of the media's patronising attitude to anyone who works with computers.
Another example is that of the movie industry. I have lost count of the number of times Hollywood movies portray male scientists as dysfunctional freaks, and female scientists are invariably played by implausibly pneumatic former models. The part of the nuclear physicist Dr. Christmas Jones in the latest James Bond movie, which I recommend, is played by the actress Denise Richards. It is not difficult to understand why many young women, seeing that media stereotype, are not persuaded to pursue a career in science, although it is not for me to speculate on what effect Miss Richards's portrayal may have on the male audience.
Schools must make science in general, and computing in particular, attractive, dynamic and relevant and, most importantly, inclusive. The hon. Member for New Forest, West hit the nail on the head when he said that computer professionals like to make their job look more difficult than it is. That is a trick used in many careers. Computing should not be an esoteric, arcane skill that allows people into a new, rarefied world of computer wizards. It is a basic skill that most people can achieve with very little training.
The Government have done a great deal to ensure that those who live in socially deprived areas have access to new technology. Castlemilk library in my constituency has a room with brand new, internet-ready computers that enable people living in the area to go on the internet in a few minutes. I extend a warm welcome to the Minister to visit the library to see for himself what an excellent asset it is to the local community.
The Government have addressed the issue of social exclusion in that community, but we are discussing sexual, rather than social, exclusion. We must learn from the mistakes of the past. British boardrooms have suffered massively over the years because they have refused to utilise the skills and experience of half the

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population. The same has been true for many years of almost every industry, as it has been of this place, although I hope that the position is improving. Because IT technology is so fundamental to the health of our economy and to the future prosperity of the country, it is incumbent on all of us to ensure that everyone is included in the future of that industry.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: We are grateful to the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Harris), whom I thank for his co-operation and for his informed advice on what films I should see.
4.35 pm
Mrs. Spelman: This has been an interesting debate, and I take from it some fundamental points on which all hon. Members are in agreement. Although the hon. Member for Guildford (Sue Doughty) is not here at present, I take the opportunity to congratulate her on her new role as spokesperson on women's issues for the Liberal Democrat party.
There is no intrinsic reason why women and information technology should be incompatible. None of the barriers that we have evoked today is insurmountable, but it will take much initiative on all sides to dismantle real and perceived barriers. For the sake of those who take an interest in information technology, I wish to put on the record the view that it would be of enormous assistance to do something about the exclusivity of the language that tends to be used in the industry. My hon. Friend the Member for New Forest, West (Mr. Swayne) described it as jargon. It is a jargon-littered subject, and that does nothing to encourage women to embrace the technology. I appeal to the industry to deal with the image that is associated with IT. I enjoin the media to be helpful and to contribute to a positive image that is associated with women and the use of information technology.
Hon. Members have tried to contribute constructively to the debate and to get a handle on the reality of the situation. The underlying, serious point concerns the skills set of our nation. We, as legislators, must help the Government of the day to see ahead and make sure that the future generation—male or female—will be well equipped to seek good employment opportunities. We must ensure that those who are currently faced with a difficult choice take whatever remedial action is necessary. Much of our debate has been about remedial action, both for generations that have not had the opportunity to acquire the skills as part of their formal school education and who have needed to acquire them latterly, and those for whom the school system has failed and who now perceive the need to acquire such skills. Much of our attention needs to be drawn to remedial action.
4.38 pm
Mr. Alexander: The debate has been wide ranging. I have certainly enjoyed and valued the contribution of all hon. Members. I wish to start my remarks with what may be a career-threatening confession about the hon. Member for Meriden (Mrs. Spelman). When I listen to her during Trade and Industry Questions, I am regularly
282WH
struck by her common sense, and by the fact that there are certain points of agreement between us. I sometimes wonder why she is a member of the Conservative party. However, given her opening remarks today, I have a better handle on why she is a Conservative.
The hon. Lady has a somewhat complacent view of this important challenge. She made the curious observation that women have a predilection towards working with the caring professions rather than machinery. That would be a revelation to the generations of mill girls, whose expertise working huge machines with their hands gave my town of Paisley world leadership in cotton production in the 19th and 20th centuries. It might also be news to Baroness Thatcher, who, as we know, was a research chemist before joining the ranks of the Conservative party. It may also be news to my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Margaret Beckett), who was a distinguished metallurgist before assuming her place in politics.
Although the speech made by the hon. Member for Meriden was well observed, it was premised on a fundamental error—that there is somehow a fundamental dichotomy between working with machines and working with people. The hon. Member for Guildford (Sue Doughty) made her point powerfully. The dynamic sectors of the economy reflect an ability to master and use technical knowledge in the service of commercial goals that involve working with people. Our traditional view of geeks on the one hand, and people who understand markets on the other, defies the reality of places such as Silicon valley, where the powerful interchange between people with an intuitive understanding of the capacity of technology, and those with an intuitive understanding of markets, has led to such spectacular growth in the IT sector over the past few years.
I take great issue with the analysis that there is a fundamental cleavage between those who work with technology and those who work with people—it reflects a broader problem in the approach to economic policy making. I sympathise with some of the remarks made by the hon. Member for Meriden about the call centre industry a matter of considerable concern to me. My ministerial responsibilities in the Department of Trade and Industry have afforded me the opportunity to visit Bangalore in recent months, to see for myself some of the competitive challenges that we will face from the Indian sub-continent. I have also met representatives of the Call Centre Association and individual managers within the industry.
To suggest that there is a great risk in adopting a low-skill, low-wage view of the British economy is a curious critique from a Conservative spokesperson. I am happy to welcome a repentant sinner to the view held for many decades by Labour Members: the best competitive environment for the United Kingdom is to establish itself as a high-skill, high-wage, high-productivity, high-value-added economy. Again, I must judge the hon. Lady's words against the reality of policy. In pursuit of that vision, Labour Members voted for the national minimum wage that was opposed by the Conservatives. That was why we wanted extra funding for education and additional support for a national child care strategy, which was also opposed by the Conservatives in terms of resources. One must take with a pinch of salt

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the suggestion that there is now unanimity that our future lies in a high-skill, high-wage economy—although that is certainly the view of the Labour Government.
A welcome degree of balance was brought to the debate by the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, North and Fleetwood (Mrs. Humble). She was absolutely right to acknowledge the risk of complacency creeping into the debate, given the seriousness of the subject. By quoting worrying statistics and urging the Government to work collaboratively, she certainly found favour with me. She made her points powerfully.
My hon. Friend began her remarks by informing the Chamber, with humour, about the importance of the quill pen in history. She used humour effectively to draw out an important point: although individuals exercise private choices about whether to learn to read and write, as a society we face a fundamental choice about whether the public interest is served by equipping people with basic skills. That is not a partisan point. One need only speak to the director-general of the Confederation of British Industry, Mr. Digby Jones, to hear powerful arguments about the productivity of the British economy and the risk that we run if, after decades of under-investment in education, we do not deal with the basic skills challenge that faces us.
My hon. Friend's point about the importance of literacy in a previous generation holds true today: as a society, we face fundamental public policy choices. In the service of that, taking action to deal with fundamental challenges in literacy as well as the problems of ICT, is entirely consistent with our view—it is the effective interaction of Government and the market that can best offer us a future as a productive and dynamic economy. For many years, Labour Members have argued for equity and the need for people to realise their potential by getting basic skills. We are moving towards a knowledge-based economy, and there is great merit in advancing such skills for the productive interests of the United Kingdom. Given the range of jobs that now involve ICT—that was a common view of hon. Members—just as in previous generations we recognised an obligation to equip people with skills of reading, writing and basic numeracy, although we did not always fulfil that, we should now recognise that the challenge that we face is to equip people with opportunities to exploit those skills.
My hon. Friend suggested that I could give her grounds for encouragement in starting her journey toward more familiarity with ICT. Given the Rolls Royce machine that is the British civil service, I can offer her help and assistance, although I cannot vouch that each of the centres that I shall mention are in her constituency. In the environs of Blackpool, opportunities exist at a boys and girls club at Laycock Gate, Blackpool central library, Blackpool Foyer centre and Grassmere Road centre.
Mrs. Humble: I visit those establishments regularly, and every time I do, a lecturer or an assistant tries to detain me and sit me down. I shall have to do something
284WH
about it, because not only the younger generation, but the older generation who increasingly use the facilities, have left me behind.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: I do not know how the Minister is going to respond to that.
Mr. Alexander: My hon. Friend uses characteristic humour to make a serious point. In my constituency, training in basic adult literacy used to take place at the local further education college. I can think of few things that would be more intimidating to a person who did not have basic reading and writing skills than a request that they cross the threshold of a local FE college. The latest initiative that we have taken in my constituency is to ensure that we distribute information on courses in basic reading and writing to community centres. We can all learn from insights—not least my hon. Friend's experience—to ensure that courses are as accessible as possible.
I pay tribute to the contribution of the hon. Member for Guildford. I respect her expertise from her many years in the ICT field, and I agreed with much of her speech. I was sympathetic to her insights on the challenge that we face to transform attitudes in the ICT sector, and on our challenge to transform attitudes in this place. Much progress has yet to be made on politics and ICT.
I was pleased that the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr. Taylor) was able to speak before he had to depart. He brought much to the debate by drawing from his experience as Minister for Science and Technology in a previous Administration. Although at times he came close to contradicting the position of the principal Conservative spokesman, he gave us a welcome insight into several challenges that we face on public policy. His understanding of public policy and broadband issues made an important contribution to the debate.
My hon. Friend the Member for South Ribble (Mr. Borrow) paid due tribute to his constituents' strength and expertise in engineering. He drew powerfully on his and his family's personal experience to show the lessons that we should learn and challenges that we face. I was intrigued by his description of the professions of journalism and law. I declare an interest because I served as a Scottish lawyer before I entered this place, but I take his point on board. When I studied law, the number of women who entered law school was significantly higher than the number of men. There are grounds for optimism, although the Conservative spokesman observed that there are not yet equal numbers of women in the higher ranks of the law. That is a fair observation, and I hope that it will be addressed by the ever-increasing numbers of women entering the profession.
Mr. Tom Harris: My hon. Friend referred to the accuracy of the comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for South Ribble about solicitors. Speaking as a former journalist, I tell the Minister that my hon. Friend's portrayal of journalists was just as accurate.
Mr. Alexander: I am on my mettle as regards my response to that observation. I will neither contest nor endorse my hon. Friend's assertion, as some journalists might read the record.

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I take on board the points that have been made about work-life balance funding, and it might be appropriate if I were to offer to write to my hon. Friend the Member for South Ribble who raised a point on the sustainability of that funding. With regard to his contribution, I feel that there are grounds for optimism about being able to leave behind the old-fashioned view of the economy and of the contribution that men and women respectively can make to it. I suggest that we are leaving that behind and moving forward—that we are progressing from a view of society as seen on "That's Life" to one that will be seen on "This Life".
The next contribution came from the hon. Member for New Forest, West (Mr. Swayne), who came close to suggesting that the statistic that underpinned some of the contributions to the debate was merely a blip. That point was addressed well by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Harris), who pointed out that it was not an isolated statistic, because there are worrying trends that deserve the attention of the House. That is why the debate has been important.
I felt that the hon. Member for New Forest, West was on surer ground in his assertion of the critical competitive importance of the ICT sector to the British economy. To draw on remarks I made earlier, it is precisely for that reason that we do not approach the debate merely in terms of equity and an interest in equality—strong though those are. We also approach it in terms of addressing how we can best harness the true talents of the UK work force, in an environment and an emerging economy where human capital—the skills and talents of our individual workers—will be a significant competitive driver, determining the relative success of the UK economy. It would be a dereliction of our duty, if we were not alive to the possibility that we might be denying the British economy the full range of talents available to it, so a clear economic rationale has underpinned the debate.
I turn to the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Cathcart, whose constituency is close to my own home. If that was his maiden speech in this Chamber, he has set himself a very high standard; it was worthy of people of far more experience, and of many more years in this place.
286WH
From my own experience in my constituency of Paisley, South, I am aware of the kind of work that my hon. Friend described in his constituency. In Paisley central library, I recently visited a computer learning facility that is undertaking many of the same kinds of work that I imagine are under way in the Castlemilk library, about which he spoke. I would welcome the opportunity—if it were to arise—to visit Castlemilk, and to hear of the work that is being taken forward in Cathcart.
My hon. Friend's description of the media brought a novel and interesting flash of light and insight to the debate. Perhaps some of us should have touched on that subject earlier. I was also intrigued by his recommendations as to which films you should watch, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I will bear them in mind. I end my remarks on his contribution by saying that his description of the problem left me stirred but not altogether shaken.
I will now conclude. This has been an important debate. I hope that the contributions—not only from Labour Members, but from across the Chamber—have convinced even those hon. Members who were sceptical at the start of the importance of the debate, on the grounds of both equity and economic productivity.
In my opening remarks, I acknowledged that there was still a great deal of work to do on the matter under discussion, and that the ambitions of the Government in that regard have by no means been fulfilled. We should regard the debate as the starting point of a continuing discussion about how, together with industry, we take forward some of the challenges that some of the more worrying statistics have revealed. Therefore, it is not a challenge exclusively for Government: there are many other players, not least the media and the sector itself, and there are a wide range of bodies that must take it forward.
I am heartened by the support I have received from Ministerial colleagues across Whitehall in rising to an important endeavour, and I will bear in mind many of the reflections that I have heard in the debate.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: I congratulate all the hon. Members who spoke in the debate on the quality and informed nature of their contributions.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at six minutes to Five o'clock.

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

  Regional Governance
  Joyce Quin
  To ask the Deputy Prime Minister when he will publish the White Paper on English regional governance. [54682]

  The Deputy Prime Minister and First Secretary of State
  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport, Local Government and the Regions and I intend to publish the White Paper on Thursday 9 May.

  United Nations Equator Initiative
  Mr. Gardiner
  To ask the Deputy Prime Minister if the UK supports the aims of the United Nations Equator Initiative. [48155]

  Clare Short
  I have been asked to reply.

  The UK has not been directly involved in the United Nations Equator Initiative, which has been designed to support the World Summit on Sustainable Development (WSSD) and the Convention on Biodiversity. However, we support its aim to reduce poverty through the conservation and sustainable use of biodiversity in the equatorial belt by fostering, supporting and strengthening community partnerships. The initiative will highlight successful initiatives undertaken by communities in the equatorial belt who are using their biological resources in a sustainable way to improve livelihoods. The first Equator Initiative Awards for such initiatives will be presented at WSSD.

  Parliamentary Questions
  Mr. Yeo
  To ask the Deputy Prime Minister if he will list the written questions asked of him between(a) 1 to 30 June 2001, (b) 1 to 31 July 2001, (c) 1 to 30 September 2001, (d) 1 to 31 October 2001, (e) 1 to 30 November 2001, (f) 1 to 31 December 2001, (g) 1 to 31 January 2002, (h) 1 to 28 February 2002, (i) 1 to 31 March 2002 and (j) 1 to 30 April 2002 that had not received a substantive answer by 30 April; and if he will state (i) the name of the hon. Member asking the question and (ii) the reasons the question had not received a substantive answer. [54077]

  The Deputy Prime Minister and First Secretary of State
  I refer the hon. Member to the answer given by my right hon. Friend the Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook) today.

  As at 30 April my Department had one question from February and one question from March that had not received a substantive reply. These have since been answered.
  890W
  In addition 20 questions tabled in April had not received a substantive reply that were due for answer by that date.

PRIME MINISTER

  Aga Khan
  Mr. Frank Field
  To ask the Prime Minister when he last met(a) the Aga Khan, (b) the Aga Khan development network and (c) the Aga Khan Foundation; what the subject matter of the meeting was; and what discussions he had in advance of the meeting. [53807]

  The Prime Minister
  I have meetings with a wide range of organisations and individuals. As with previous Administrations it is not my practice to provide details of all such meetings.

  St. Thomas's
  Mr. Frank Field
  To ask the Prime Minister (1) what recent representations he has received on the sale of the St. Thomas's old medical school site; [53806]

  (2) what recent discussions he has had on the St. Thomas's old medical school site. [53805]

  The Prime Minister
  I have received representations. I have made it clear that I am not in a position to intervene in the decision making on the St. Thomas's site. The site is owned by King's college London, and decisions on its future are a matter for them.

  Parliamentary Questions
  Mr. Yeo
  To ask the Prime Minister if he will list the written questions asked of him between(a) 1 to 30 June 2001, (b) 1 to 31 July 2001, (c) 1 to 30 September 2001, (d) 1 to 31 October 2001, (e) 1 to 30 November 2001, (f) 1 to 31 December 2001, (g) 1 to 31 January 2002, (h) 1 to 28 February 2002, (i) 1 to 31 March 2002 and (j) 1 to 30 April 2002 that had not received a substantive answer by 30 April; and if he will state (i) the name of the hon. Member asking the question and (ii) the reasons the question had not received a substantive answer. [54076]

  The Prime Minister
  Two ordinary written parliamentary questions tabled for answer on 24 and 29 April 2002 respectively have not yet been answered, but will be shortly.

  My office aims to answer all ordinary written parliamentary questions within five working days, and named day written parliamentary questions on the day named.

HOME DEPARTMENT

  Departmental Staff
  Mr. Bercow
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many and what proportion of the staff of his Department are part-time employees. [47414]
  891W
  Angela Eagle
  [holding answer 10 April 2002]: I refer the hon. Member to the answer given to him by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr. Leslie), on 11 April 2002, Official Report, column 553W.

  Special Advisers
  Mr. Burns
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how much was spent by departmental special advisers on food, alcoholic and non-alcoholic drinks for entertainment purposes in each of the last five years. [46836]

  Angela Eagle
  [holding answer 10 April 2002]: I refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave him on 10 April 2002, Official Report, column 348W.

  Statutory Instruments
  Mr. Bercow
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, pursuant to his answer of 4 March 2002,Official Report, columns 42–45W, on statutory instruments, what assessment he has made of the cost effectiveness of each of the statutory instruments listed. [50014]

  Angela Eagle
  Costs associated with regulatory proposals are considered at the policy development stage. A regulatory impact assessment (RIA) is completed for regulatory proposals unless there are no or negligible costs, and sets out the impact, in terms of costs, benefits and risks of the proposed regulation which could affect businesses, charities or the voluntary sector. RIAs are available from the Library.

  Drug Cases
  Mr. Cox
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many drug cases were dealt with in magistrates courts in the Greater London area in each of the last three years. [50876]

  Mr. Bob Ainsworth
  The available information, from the Home Office Court Proceedings Database, provided in the table, shows the number of defendants proceeded against in magistrates courts within the Metropolitan police area for drug offences by outcome in the years 1998 to 2000.

  Information on court proceedings for 2001 will be available in the autumn.

  Number of defendants1 proceeded against in magistrates courts in the Metropolitan police area by outcome, 1998–2000

  Type of drug offences

  All types

  of which: Class A

  Defendants proceeded against

  1998

  11,312

  3,729

  1999

  11,280

  4,200

  2000

  10,387

  4,205

  Percentage of: Proceedings terminated early

  1998

  10.7

  11.7

  1999

  10.5

  11.3

  2000

  11.1

  11.6

  892W

  Number of defendants1 proceeded against in magistrates courts in the Metropolitan police area by outcome, 1998–2000

  Type of drug offences

  All types

  of which: Class A

  Defendants acquitted

  1998

  0.3

  0.3

  1999

  0.3

  0.3

  2000

  0.3

  0.3

  Defendants convicted

  1998

  17.2

  31.4

  1999

  15.5

  27.3

  2000

  16.3

  28.9

  Defendants committed for trial

  1998

  71.8

  56.6

  1999

  73.7

  61.1

  2000

  72.2

  59.1

  1 For which a drug offence was the principal offence

  Correspondence
  Mr. Kaufman
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he intends to reply to the letter to him dated 18 March from the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton with regard to Gul Hargus. [51794]

  Angela Eagle
  I understand that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office replied to my right hon. Friend on 16 April 2002.

  Mr. Kaufman
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he intends to reply to the letter to him dated 18 February from the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton with regard to Mr. A Khilei. [51793]

  Angela Eagle
  My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary wrote to my right hon. Friend on 22 April 2002.

  Mr. Kaufman
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he intends to reply to the letter to him dated 22 February from the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton with regard to Debbie Esho. [51792]

  Mr. Blunkett
  I wrote to my right hon. Friend on 1 May 2002.

  British Overseas Citizenship
  Mr. Gerrard
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many people he estimates hold British overseas citizenship; and what information he holds about their countries of residence. [52407]

  Angela Eagle
  There is no reliable way of estimating the number of British overseas citizens. However, returns from our consulates and diplomatic missions suggest that there may be about 1.5 million such citizens, with the largest concentrations residing in Malaysia, India and Kenya. Many of these also hold the citizenship of the country in which they are resident.

  Suicide and Voluntary Euthanasia
  Mr. Hancock
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement on the research commissioned by him in the last five years on(a) suicide, (b) assisted suicide and (c) voluntary euthanasia. [52314]
  893W
  Mr. Keith Bradley
  Policy in this area is the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health. I refer the hon. Member to the reply given to him by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department of Health (Ms Blears) on 12 April 2002,Official Report, column 670W.

  Domestic Security
  Mr. Bercow
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how much of the £50 million provided for domestic security responsibilities since 11 September 2001 has been spent. [52360]

  Mr. Blunkett
  All the additional money allocated to the Home Office that was announced by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his statement on the pre-Budget report on 27 November 2001 has been distributed to provide operational and technical support for the police and to enhance our preparedness to deal with the terrorist threat.

  Belmarsh Prison
  Mr. McNamara
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what religious beliefs have been declared by prisoners held in the special secure unit at HMP Belmarsh; what pastoral care is available for groups of prisoners of each religion; and what arrangements have been made by prison authorities to respect the(a) religious practices and (b) dietary requirements of each religion. [52462]

  Beverley Hughes
  The facility at Belmarsh is designated as a High Secure Unit (HSU). Currently the religious beliefs of prisoners within the unit who have declared a faith are(a) Church of England, (b) Roman Catholic, (c) Judaism, and (d) Islam.

  All prisoners have access to ministers of their chosen faith, either as groups or individuals, at least once a week. Additional access can be requested by prisoners, which is then arranged. Religious services for each faith are held weekly within the HSU. In addition, the HSU can accommodate additional services required during times of religious festivals. Timings for religious services are built into the regime.

  Individual religious dietary requirements are offered at each mealtime and prisoners are able to choose from the selection of food on offer. Religious festivals or celebrations, which require a change in the content of meals or the time of their provision, are also catered for. All food is prepared to the respective religious belief.

  Prisoners are also supplied with religious items to enable them to practice their belief.

  People Trafficking
  Dr. Tonge
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what plans he has to offer victims of people-trafficking a reflection delay in order to make an informed decision regarding the pressing of charges against the traffickers. [52247]

  Angela Eagle
  [holding answer 25 April 2002]: Arrangements already exist which enable the police to ask for someone subject to immigration control to be allowed to enter or remain in the United Kingdom where this
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  would assist in the investigation of organised crime. These arrangements would permit a period of reflection, but it is not offered automatically. The Government have yet to decide whether or not to opt in to the proposed European directive on this subject.

  Disability Discrimination Act
  Brian Cotter
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what adjustments have been made to his Department's premises following the introduction of the Disability Discrimination Act 1995; and what the cost of these adjustments has been as a proportion of the Department's budget. [53026]

  Angela Eagle
  [holding answer 29 April 2002]: The Home Department has taken account of the requirements of the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 at its premises. Alteration works ranging from local works to suit the requirements of individuals to larger scale changes such as the construction of ramps, chair lifts and the refurbishment of toilets to accommodate wheelchair access have been undertaken where appropriate.

  Disability Discrimination Act surveys have been undertaken at a number of sites and remedial work has been undertaken or is planned as appropriate. At other premises, we have ensured that the provisions of the Act are covered as part of larger refurbishment projects, or when acquiring new property.

  The nature and cost of alterations to the Department's premises in order to comply with the Disability Discrimination Act are not recorded centrally and could only be obtained at disproportionate cost.

  Racial Equality
  Mr. Andrew Turner
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will ask the CRE to extend the deadline for parish councils which received the consultative document on the draft code of practice on the duty to promote race equality late; and if he will list, by county, the parish councils which responded to the consultation. [53464]

  Angela Eagle
  [holding answer 30 April 2002]: As I said in my reply of 13 March 2002, the consultation period ended on 28 February 2002 but the deadline was extended until 15 March 2002 for those Parish Councils who notified the Commission for Racial Equality that they had received the consultation pack late. No further extension is possible.

  The draft Code of Practice was laid before Parliament on 17 April.

  The 87 Parish Councils which responded to the consultation exercise are listed alphabetically below (but a breakdown by county is not available).

  Name of Parish Council

  Ardeley Parish Council

  Arlesey Town Council

  Ashington Parish Council

  Balderton Parish Council

  Barlaston Parish Council

  Barton Mills Parish Council

  Beccles Town Council

  Birchanger Parish Council

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  Birstall Parish Council

  Blithfield Parish Council

  Bradwell Parish Council

  Brockdish and Thorpe Parish Council

  Buckingham Town Council

  Cheddleton Parish Council

  Chepping Wycombe Parish Council

  Chipperfield Parish Council

  Chipstable Parish Council

  City of Ely Council

  Clayworth Parish Council

  Cottered Parish Council

  Dean and Shelton Parish Council

  Dilham Parish Council

  Dover Town Council

  East Hoathly with Halland Parish Council

  Eastfield Parish Council

  Emberton Parish Council

  Etchingham Parish Council

  Fakenham Town Council

  Farnham Parish Council

  Gnosall Parish Council

  Godalming Town Council

  Granborough Parish Council

  Gurnard Parish Council

  Haughton Parish Council

  Haydon Wick Parish Council

  Headley Parish Council

  Hedge End Town Council

  Hedon Parish Council

  Hessle Town Council

  Hexham Town Council

  Holtby Parish Council

  Holywell and Needingworth PC

  Hopton and Coton Parish Council

  Hoveton Parish Council

  Hythe and Dibden Parish Council

  Ingestre With Tixall Parish Council

  Leominster Town Council

  Llantwit Major Town Council

  Maplethorpe and Sutton Town Council

  Mavesyn Ridware Parish Council

  Mossley Town Council

  Newborough Parish Council

  Newbrough Parish Council

  Newholm—cum—Dunsley Parish Council

  North Hykeham Town Coucil

  Ormesby St. Michael Parish Council

  Perton Parish Council

  Peterlee Town Council

  Porter Heigham Parish Council

  Purleigh Parish Council

  Quarnford Parish Council

  Ringwood Town Council

  Saltburn, Marske and New Marske Parish Council

  Santon Downham Parish Council

  Seaford Town Council

  Sealescombe Parish Council

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  Shildon Town Council

  Skegness Town Coucil

  St Ives Town Council

  Steeton with Eastburn Parish Council

  Steppingley Parish Council

  Stotfold Town Council

  Tavistock Town Council

  Terrington St Clement Parish Council

  Tollesbury Parish Council

  Trimingham Parish Council

  Uckfield Parish Council

  Uckfield Town Council

  Warden Parish Council

  Watford Rural Parish Council

  Werrington Parish Council

  West Buckland Parish Council

  West Itchenor Parish Council

  Wootton Parish Council

  Worth Parish Council

  Wyhondley Parish Council

  Wythall Parish Council.

  Zimbabwe
  Mr. Ancram
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the UK and EU travel ban on Zimbabwean officials is enforced by(a) individual airlines and (b) immigration officials at ports of entry. [53134]

  Angela Eagle
  [holding answer 30 April 2002]: The United Kingdom has adopted a travel ban on certain Zimbabwean officials consistent with a Common Position passed by the European Council. Whilst responsibility for deciding whether to carry a passenger ultimately rests with the airline, there is no requirement on the carrier to be fully satisfied in advance of travel that a passenger will be acceptable to the United Kingdom authorities. That judgment can be exercised only by the immigration officer on arrival. Airlines are, however, required to ensure that only properly documented passengers board their aircraft to the United Kingdom. Zimbabwean nationals do not require visas to enter the United Kingdom, but the airline is expected to ensure that the Zimbabwean passenger is the rightful holder of the passport being presented and that the document itself is acceptable for entry to the United Kingdom.

  The United Kingdom Immigration Service is responsible for enforcing the travel ban. Immigration officers at ports have been instructed not to grant entry to those Zimbabwean officials placed on the European Union travel ban list.

  Mr. Ancram
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department which Zimbabwean nationals, subject to a travel ban by the United States, have recently passed through United Kingdom ports en-route to the US and any other destinations; and what liaison there is between UK and US immigration officials on this subject. [53133]

  Angela Eagle
  [holding answer 30 April 2002]: We are not aware of any Zimbabwean nationals, subject to a travel ban, passing through the United Kingdom to other countries. But at major United Kingdom airports, only passengers who present themselves at the immigration control seeking entry whilst in transit would come to the

  897W
  attention of the Immigration Service. Many others will remain airside and travel on in direct transit to their destinations and without seeking leave to enter the United Kingdom.

  The Immigration and Nationality Directorate has strong links with Untied States officials. Anyone identified by the Immigration Service on arrival in the United Kingdom declared by the American authorities to be unacceptable for entry to the United States will be prevented from travelling on.

  Asylum Seekers
  Peter Bradley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many pilot accommodation centres for asylum seekers he is seeking to secure; when they will be identified; when they will be announced; and when they will be operational. [52347]

  Angela Eagle
  [holding answer 25 April 2002]: In respect of the number of pilot accommodation centres we are seeking to secure I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry) on 5 March 2002, Official Report, column 160W.

  In respect of the identification, announcement and operation of these sites, I refer my hon. Friend to the answers I gave to the hon. Member for Mid-Worcestershire (Mr. Luff) on 11 March 2002, Official Report, column 781W, and to the hon. Member for Edinburgh, West (John Barrett) on 18 March 2002, Official Report, column 97W.

  Peter Bradley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if the development of all asylum seekers accommodation centres will require planning consent. [52350]

  Angela Eagle
  [holding answer 25 April 2002]: Planning consent will be required in every case.

  Peter Bradley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how it is proposed that planning applications for asylum seekers' accommodation centres will be handled. [52349]

  Angela Eagle
  [holding answer 25 April 2002]: Planning notifications will be submitted under the terms of Circular 18–84, which covers developments by Government Departments on Crown property. In every case there will be full consultation with the local authorities and local communities.

  Peter Bradley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what guidelines he proposes to issue to private companies proposing asylum seeker accommodation centres as to the standards expected of them in their relations with local communities and representative bodies. [52356]

  Angela Eagle
  [holding answer 25 April 2002]: We cannot set standards for organisations prior to their involvement formally in arrangements for the delivery of accommodation centres. However, those invited to bid would be expected to do so in accordance with normally expected standards.

  Peter Bradley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what characteristics he seeks in the sites suitable for asylum seekers' accommodation centres. [52348]
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  Angela Eagle
  [holding answer 25 April 2002]: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Mid-Worcestershire (Mr. Luff) on 7 February 2002, Official Report, column 1134W.

  Peter Bradley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps he is taking to provide information to local communities where proposals to develop asylum seeker accommodation centres are made. [52355]

  Angela Eagle
  [holding answer 25 April 2002]: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes (Shona McIsaac) on 25 February 2002, Official Report, column 900W.

  Peter Bradley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many expressions of interest he has received from(a) private landowners and (b) private sector prospective operators of asylum seeker accommodation centres. [52352]

  Angela Eagle
  [holding answer 28 April 2002]: The information requested is commercially confidential.

  Yarl's Wood
  Mr. Sayeed
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if Ministers were informed that a decision had been made not to fit a sprinkler system to the premises at Yarl's Wood detention centre; and if he will make a statement. [39523]

  Angela Eagle
  The decision not to fit sprinklers was informed by a number of different expert sources. The Minister responsible at the time made the decision based upon this advice.

  Harry Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what the latest estimated cost is of the Yarl's Wood fire; and how much is expected to be borne by the Exchequer. [49846]

  Angela Eagle
  For legal reasons I am unable to comment at this stage on the costs of the Yarl's Wood incident and who will bear responsibility for those costs.

TRANSPORT, LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND THE REGIONS

  Railways
  Mr. Redwood
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, Local Government and the Regions how many miles of new railway track have been commissioned in the last six months. [44236]

  Mr. Spellar
  [holding answer 18 March 2002]: The maintenance of track, including repairs and replacement, is carried out daily. Some large scale infrastructure projects are currently in hand, such as the West Coast Main Line upgrade which includes track-relaying, and others are being planned, such as the East Coast Main Line upgrade. A host of other infrastructure projects are also in hand or planned nation-wide, as indicated in the Strategic Rail Authority's Strategic Plan.

  Budget (Effects on Cheltenham)
  Mr. Nigel Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, Local Government and the Regions what effect the Budget of 17 April will have on the transport system in Cheltenham. [52936]

  Mr. Jamieson
  The Chancellor's Budget statement included a number of fiscal and other measures relating to road vehicles and fuels. An assessment of the impact of these on the transport system in Cheltenham has not been carried out.

  Young People
  Dr. Starkey
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, Local Government and the Regions on what subjects and on which dates his Department has consulted organisations representing young people; and if he will list such organisations. [52491]

  Ms Keeble
  This information is not held centrally in the manner requested and could be secured only at disproportionate cost.

  The Department is committed to the new core principles for the involvement of children and young people published by the Minister for Young People in November 2001. The Department will shortly be publishing an action plan setting out for the first time how it will implement these principles to extend the participation of children and young people in the design, provision and evaluation of policies and services that affect them.

  Ministerial Training
  Mr. Bercow
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, Local Government and the Regions how much has been spent by his Department on training by the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts for Ministers and officials in each of the last five years. [52743]

  Dr. Whitehead
  [holding answer 26 April 2002]: My Department has not incurred any expenditure on training by the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts for Ministers or officials in the last five years.

  Mr. Bercow
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, Local Government and the Regions how much has been spent by his Department on voice coaching for Ministers and officials in each of the last five years. [52703]

  Dr. Whitehead
  [holding answer 26 April 2002]: My Department has not incurred any expenditure on training on voice coaching for Ministers or officials in the last five years.

  Mr. Bercow
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, Local Government and the Regions how much has been spent by his Department on training in leadership skills for Ministers and officials in each of the last five years. [52727]

  Dr. Whitehead
  [holding answer 26 April 2002]: There has been no expenditure for training in leadership skills for Ministers in the last five years. However, my Department actively encourages training in leadership
  900W
  skills for officials and as a result of the civil service reform programme a considerable commitment has been made in the last two years.

  £000

  Year

  Expenditure

  1997–98

  n/a

  1998–99

  22.0

  1999–2000

  26.8

  2000–01

  207.0

  2001–02

  618.6

  n/a = not available

  London Underground
  Tom Brake
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, Local Government and the Regions (1) what assessment his Department has made of EC Treaty Articles 81, 82, 87 and 88 with regard to the PPP of London Underground; [53114]

  (2) what (a) discussions and (b) correspondence he and his Department have had with the European Commission with regard to the PPP of London Underground and EC Treaty Articles 81, 82, 87 and 88. [53113]

  Mr. Jamieson
  The Government are aware of their obligations under European Community law. All appropriate regulatory clearances will be obtained before any PPP contracts take effect.

  Construction Industry
  Brian Cotter
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, Local Government and the Regions what representations have been made to his Department, and by whom, following the introduction of Building (Amendment) Regulations 2002. [53006]

  Dr. Whitehead
  Since the introduction of the Building (Amendment) Regulations 2002, my Department has had representations from the Federation of Master Builders and the Federation of Small Businesses. These representations have led to a number of letters and questions from MPs and Peers.

  Up until 26 April we had also received around 30 items of correspondence, either directly or through Members of Parliament, from local authorities, industry bodies, individual installers of flues and glazing, window fabricators or potential scheme providers commenting on the schemes, asking for clarification on aspects of them, or wishing to be involved in self-certification. We have also held a number of meetings with further potential self-certification scheme providers in the fields of heating appliances, flue installation, energy ratings and assessments as well as with a trade body regarding the Fenestration Self-Assessment Scheme.

  Council Housing
  Mr. Evans
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, Local Government and the Regions how much council tenant rent was written off in each of the last five years in each local authority. [53101]

  Ms Keeble
  Local authorities reported the total rent arrears written off their Housing Revenue Account during each of the years 1996–97 to 2000–01. This information has been placed in the Libraries of the House.

  Road Pricing
  Chris Grayling
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, Local Government and the Regions what technology pilots into road pricing schemes his Department is involved with [53221]

  Mr. Jamieson
  We are supporting research projects into technology suitable for urban congestion charging or lorry distance-based charging: a demonstration of interoperable charging and telematics systems (jointly with Leeds city council and the Highways Agency); and a project on dynamic freight analysis.

  Tyneside Multi-modal Study
  Mr. Cousins
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, Local Government and the Regions when the conclusions of the Tyneside multi-modal study will be published. [53480]

  Mr. Jamieson
  The Tyneside area multi-modal study report, including consultants' recommendations will be forwarded to the Regional Assembly in July 2002. The Assembly will consider the findings, together with all comments received, before forwarding their recommendations to Government. A ministerial decision on an investment strategy will be made after full consideration of the issues.

  Rail Freight
  Chris Grayling
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, Local Government and the Regions what protection is given to rail freight operators against increases in track access charges by the Rail Regulator. [53507]

  Mr. Jamieson
  The Rail Regulator published the final conclusions of his review of freight charging policy on 18 October 2001. This allowed a 50 per cent. reduction in the access charges that the freight operators pay Railtrack for the use of the network.

  Chiltern Line
  Chris Grayling
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, Local Government and the Regions if he will make a statement on section 44.4 of the Chiltern franchise agreement, with particular reference to subsection (aa) and the reason that this clause was included in the agreement. [53503]

  Mr. Jamieson
  Clause 44.4(aa) was included in the Chiltern franchise agreement as a result of negotiations between the Strategic Rail Authority and M40 Trains.

  Chris Grayling
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, Local Government and the Regions (1) if it is his policy to continue the provision for train operating companies to be reimbursed by the Government for additional costs resulting from an interim review and adjustment of track access charges by the Rail Regulator when all the remaining franchises are renewed; [53505]

  (2) whether Chiltern will continue to be reimbursed by the Government for additional costs resulting from an interim review and adjustment of track access charges by the Rail Regulator as part of its new franchise agreement. [53504]
  902W
  Mr. Jamieson
  Yes. If such a provision was not included bidders for rail franchises would merely price the perceived risk of increased charges into their bids.

  Seaports
  Miss McIntosh
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, Local Government and the Regions what assessment he has made of the security of seaports since 11 September. [R] [53647]

  Mr. Jamieson
  Under paragraph 1 of Part II of the Code of Practice on Access to Government Information, it is not the practice to disclose details of security matters.

  Correspondence
  Mr. Kaufman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, Local Government and the Regions when he will reply to the letter to him dated 13 March 2002 from the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton with regard to Mr. Pat McGuinness. [53954]

  Mr. Byers
  I understand that Chris Shepley, Chief Inspector of the Planning Inspectorate, wrote to my right hon. Friend on 30 April.

  Rural Housing
  Mr. Breed
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport. Local Government and the Regions, pursuant to his answer of 27 November 2002,Official Report, column 861W, on rural housing, how many households were identified as being in priority need for housing in (a) 1996, (b) 1997, (c) 1998, (d) 1999, (e) 2000, (f) 2001 and (g) 2002 in local authorities defined as rural. [53779]

  Ms Keeble
  Summary information on activity under the statutory homeless provisions of the 1996 Housing Act is reported to the Department by local authorities in England. This includes the number of households accepted as being eligible for assistance, unintentionally homeless and in priority need. The numbers of these households in authorities categorised as either "mixed rural" or "deep rural" are as follows:

  Households accepted as unintentionally homeless and in priority need: rural authorities in England—financial year totals

  Number of households

  1996–97

  15,190

  1997–98

  14,460

  1998–99

  14,440

  1999–2000

  15,050

  2000–2001

  17,160

  Source:

  DTLR P1(E) housing activity return

  Emergency Calls Service
  Sandra Gidley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, Local Government and the Regions (1) what plans he has to review back-up mechanisms in the event of a 999 telephone failure; and if he will make a statement; [54028]
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  (2) what measures are in place to ensure availability of 999 services in the event of failure in the local telephone network. [54029]

  Dr. Whitehead
  In addition to implementing contingency plans to restore the service, telephone companies liaise with the emergency services. The emergency services cover such circumstances with extra patrols, stationing vehicles at strategic points and advice through the media. Where possible calls will be transferred to another emergency service which should be in radio communication with the affected service.

  Particular attention is paid to the resilience and robustness of the 999 service. DTLR manages a 999 liaison committee which brings together representatives of the emergency services and the telephone operating companies to consider issues affecting the service. This matter will be raised at the next meeting of the committee.

  Mr. Andrew Turner
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, Local Government and the Regions if he will make a statement on the level of service of the Hampshire and Isle of Wight 999 services on Thursday 25 April with particular reference to(a) emergency service 999 calls, (b) the telephone landlines in Southampton and parts of the Isle of Wight and (c) back-up arrangements. [53893]

  Dr. Whitehead
  At 18.30 on Thursday a fault occurred in the equipment at the Southampton Bargate BT telephone exchange. Customers in Southampton and some in surrounding areas in Hampshire and Wiltshire were affected and experienced loss of service. 80 per cent. of customers had been restored to service by midnight and almost all others by 3.55 am.

  During the incident the BT call centres that answer 999 calls quickly liaised with the emergency services and implemented contingency plans. BT's 999 call centres are outside of the Southampton area. BT connected those who could make calls beyond their local area to neighbouring emergency services in Dorset or Hampshire who contacted the local emergency services using radio links or other means. For those who could only make local calls and therefore not access BT's 999 call centre, the emergency services covered these areas with extra patrols, stationing vehicles at strategic points and keeping the public informed through the media.

  Isle of Wight Fire and Ambulance Control Rooms were not affected and callers on the Isle of Wight would have been able to make 999 calls as they are routed via equipment at a building in Portsmouth, not the affected Southampton unit. In the case of a request for police assistance, calls were routed via the temporary links to Dorset police on behalf of Hampshire police.

  BT have informed me that a detailed investigation has established that a number of crucial components failed at the same time.

  Railtrack Successor
  Mr. Lilley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, Local Government and the Regions if he will list the categories and value of payments made to, by and on 904W
  behalf of the proposed Company Limited by Guarantee as a successor to Railtrack which will be paid from public funds. [53802]

  Mr. Spellar
  The successor to Railtrack plc will continue to receive income to the time and profile as set out in the regulator's October 2000 periodic review and the April 2001 agreement between the Government and Railtrack.

  If Network Rail's bid is successful, the support to be provided by Government is outlined in the replies to the right hon. and learned Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Howard) on 16 April 2002, Official Report, column 812W, and to the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope) on 24 April 2002, Official Report, columns 284–85W.

  National Insurance
  Mr. Andrew Turner
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, Local Government and the Regions what his estimate is of the cost in a full year of the Budget changes to employers' national insurance contributions to(a) his Department, (b) agencies of his Department and (c) local government carrying out functions within the responsibility of his Department. [53889]

  Dr. Whitehead
  I refer the hon. Member to the answer given to him by the my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury on 29 April 2002,Official Report, column 544W.

  Parliamentary Questions
  Mr. Yeo
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, Local Government and the Regions if he will list the written questions asked of him between(a) 1 to 30 June 2001, (b) 1 to 31 July 2001, (c) 1 to 30 September 2001, (d) 1 to 31 October 2001, (e) 1 to 30 November 2001, (f) 1 to 31 December 2001, (g) I to 31 January 2002, (h) 1 to 28 February 2002, (i) 1 to 31 March 2002 and (j) 1 to 30 April 2002 that had not received a substantive answer by 30 April; and if he will state (i) the name of the hon. Member asking the question and (ii) the reasons the question had not received a substantive answer. [54083]

  Dr. Whitehead
  I refer the hon. Member to the answer given today by my right hon. Friend the President of the Council.

  Since this Department was formed on 8 June 2001, Ministers have answered over 6,600 written questions. At 30 April 2002, 72 written questions had not received a substantive answer. By convention ordinary written questions are answered within a week of tabling and 60 of the 72 questions were tabled after 24 April. Of the remaining 12 questions, one named day question was given a holding reply on 18 March and a substantive answer was given on 2 May; seven other named day questions were given a holding reply on various dates in April and they have now been given substantive answers; and four ordinary written questions which were due for answer in the period 12 to 24 April were answered on 1 May.

EDUCATION AND SKILLS

  New Deal
  Mr. Bercow
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Skills how many people have been employed by her Department in each of the last three years under(a) the New Deal for Young People, (b) the New Deal for the Over 50s and (c) the New Deal for Lone Parents; and at what cost, listed by category, to public funds. [44908]

  Mr. Ivan Lewis
  Information on the numbers employed on New Deal is not held in a format that identifies those employed on the over 50 or lone parent programmes.

  Information on the subsidised numbers employed under New Deal for Young People is as follows:

  New Deal for Young People

  Year

  1998–1999

  12

  1999–2000

  26

  2000–2001

  50

  2001–2002

  3

  The figures for 2000–02 relate to DfES and its former Department DfEE. The figure for 2000–01 was prior to the Machinery of Government changes. The figure for 2001–02 takes account of the Machinery of Government changes.

  Since 1 April 2000 there have been 51 unsubsidised New Deal job starts. It is not possible to allocate any of these to any particular age or client group.

  New Deal recruits take up existing vacancies so any extra cost to public funds is limited to the subsidy, where appropriate, and to any training and development which may be needed. The cost of the latter cannot be identified.

  School Transport
  Mr. Breed
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Skills what proportion of school children travelled by(a) foot, (b) bus, (c) car, (d) bicycle, (e) train and (f) other form of transport to rural (i) primary and (ii) secondary schools in (a) 1999, (b) 2000 and (c) 2001. [46458]

  Mr. Timms
  [holding answer 15 April 2002]: Information is only available in respect of people living in rural areas, not for rural schools, and data are not sufficiently reliable for individual years.

  GCSE entries and achievements of all candidates in all schools and further education sector colleges, 1996–97 to 2000–01

  Academic year

  Number of entries

  Grade A*

  Grade A

  Grade B

  Grade C

  Grade D

  Grade E

  Grade F

  Grade G

  Total A*-C

  Total A*-G

  1996–97

  Mathematics

  660,910

  13,121

  46,520

  90,104

  152,279

  106,312

  97,925

  76,689

  77,960

  302,024

  622,567

  Physics

  38,527

  5,429

  8,700

  11,063

  7,627

  2,866

  1,491

  579

  772

  32,819

  37,811

  Chemistry

  39,406

  5,597

  8,441

  11,386

  8,397

  2,835

  1,344

  539

  867

  33,821

  38,617

  Biology

  52,043

  4,592

  10,564

  13,296

  10,016

  5,817

  3,609

  1,193

  2,956

  38,468

  49,338

  History

  212,215

  9,266

  27,047

  42,351

  41,631

  30,852

  24,206

  17,456

  19,406

  120,295

  203,545

  English literature

  468,037

  12,721

  50,611

  100,800

  121,708

  83,831

  49,928

  27,929

  20,509

  285,840

  455,987

  French

  313,013

  12,193

  44,354

  44,317

  52,757

  57,300

  41,737

  33,666

  26,689

  153,621

  302,679

  Geography

  265,895

  10,560

  32,290

  48,136

  51,560

  44,060

  35,023

  24,067

  20,199

  142,546

  257,229

  Economics

  8,530

  244

  1,027

  1,719

  2,179

  1,546

  627

  454

  734

  5,169

  8,021

  906W
  From the National Travel Survey, the distribution of mode of travel to school for people living in rural areas of Great Britain over the period 1992–2000 was as follows:

  Percentage travelling by:

  Primary

  Secondary

  (a) Foot

  41

  19

  (b) Bus

  15

  51

  (c) Car

  40

  22

  (d)-(e)-(f) Bicycle, train, other

  4

  8

  Note:

  Percentages are calculated across all children coded as being in education in the National Travel Survey. Primary pupils defined as children aged 5–10 in the National Travel Survey Secondary pupils defined as children aged 11–16 in the National Travel Survey.

  Source:

  DTLR

  The sample size is too small to give accurate figures for bicycle and train which together account for less than half of the last category shown. Rural areas are those with a population of less than 3,000 as defined by the 1991 Census.

  Business Development Unit
  Lynne Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Skills if she will make a statement on the work of the Business Development Unit; and what her estimate is of the financial value of sponsorship and other support they have secured. [53741]

  Mr. Timms
  The Business Development Unit has, since its establishment in January 2001, managed and developed the Department's relationships with appropriate key business partners, promoting their understanding of and responses to our educational policies; and to date secured sponsorship of over £7.3 million in cash and in kind from businesses in support of national projects for the schools sector.

  Examinations
  Mrs. Laing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Skills how many pupils are studying(a) mathematics, (b) physics, (c) chemistry, (d) biology, (e) history, (f) English literature, (g) French, (h) geography and (i) economics at (i) GCSE and (ii) A-level; and how many passed in each subject, broken down by grade achieved in all institutions in each year from 1997 to 2001. [48245]

  Mr. Timms
  [holding answer 10 April 2002]: The information requested is shown in the following tables.
  907W

  GCSE entries and achievements of all candidates in all schools and further education sector colleges, 1996–97 to 2000–01

  Academic year

  Number of entries

  Grade A*

  Grade A

  Grade B

  Grade C

  Grade D

  Grade E

  Grade F

  Grade G

  Total A*-C

  Total A*-G

  1997–98

  Mathematics

  644,224

  12,994

  47,887

  96,232

  140,079

  112,866

  102,275

  57,344

  31,897

  297,192

  601,574

  Physics

  39,316

  6,511

  9,512

  9,765

  8,189

  3,342

  1,121

  322

  88

  33,977

  38,850

  Chemistry

  39,924

  5,524

  10,571

  10,617

  8,170

  3,027

  1,119

  319

  102

  34,882

  39,449

  Biology

  51,354

  4,920

  11,265

  11,867

  11,237

  6,026

  2,668

  829

  329

  39,289

  49,141

  History

  192,621

  9,703

  27,777

  38,008

  36,462

  26,683

  21,587

  15,910

  9,670

  111,950

  185,800

  English literature

  455,651

  16,175

  47,530

  88,119

  125,222

  83,181

  52,265

  25,160

  10,423

  277,046

  448,075

  French

  312,358

  18,686

  34,615

  41,480

  57,374

  59,784

  48,060

  31,718

  15,547

  152,155

  307,264

  Geography

  240,822

  10,924

  28,993

  39,153

  53,430

  43,270

  29,932

  19,030

  9,300

  132,500

  234,032

  Economics

  6,625

  247

  791

  1,384

  1,583

  1,188

  595

  324

  214

  4,005

  6,326

  1998–99

  Mathematics

  650,930

  14,700

  50,136

  102,120

  141,303

  120,218

  96,772

  59,449

  31,841

  308,259

  616,539

  Physics

  40,166

  7,582

  9,787

  9,641

  7,997

  3,361

  968

  330

  98

  35,007

  39,764

  Chemistry

  40,653

  6,441

  10,523

  10,353

  8,193

  3,331

  1,036

  336

  87

  35,510

  40,300

  Biology

  50,329

  5,918

  10,982

  12,106

  10,671

  5,681

  2,265

  758

  329

  39,677

  48,710

  History

  192,206

  11,429

  28,975

  38,843

  36,287

  26,342

  21,114

  14,637

  8,599

  115,534

  186,226

  English literature

  471,723

  16,390

  53,513

  102,057

  122,557

  80,655

  51,149

  27,077

  10,685

  294,517

  464,083

  French

  316,742

  19,529

  35,488

  44,213

  62,256

  58,243

  46,460

  31,599

  14,608

  161,486

  312,396

  Geography

  234,144

  11,082

  29,223

  38,786

  53,669

  40,767

  27,564

  17,412

  8,681

  132,760

  227,184

  Economics

  5,766

  241

  770

  1,202

  1,419

  1,037

  421

  270

  181

  3,632

  5,541

  1999–2000

  Mathematics

  651,804

  17,951

  50,100

  105,652

  147,105

  118,257

  98,578

  57,102

  27,198

  320,808

  621,943

  Physics

  40,230

  7,088

  10,447

  9,868

  7,851

  3,347

  920

  264

  88

  35,254

  39,873

  Chemistry

  40,524

  6,564

  10,667

  10,237

  8,249

  3,285

  896

  241

  64

  35,717

  40,203

  Biology

  50,068

  5,853

  11,528

  11,798

  10,880

  5,490

  2,050

  672

  273

  40,059

  48,544

  History

  193,447

  13,205

  30,720

  39,016

  35,627

  26,040

  20,194

  14,779

  8,474

  118,568

  188,055

  English literature

  476,486

  17,024

  56,469

  107,386

  120,040

  80,333

  50,561

  25,732

  10,758

  300,919

  468,303

  French

  318,889

  19,811

  35,340

  42,832

  64,276

  57,625

  46,288

  32,128

  15,677

  162,259

  313,977

  Geography

  221,005

  11,315

  28,836

  37,148

  50,137

  38,099

  25,333

  16,135

  8,009

  127,436

  215,012

  Economics

  5,352

  221

  709

  1,137

  1,324

  989

  404

  233

  134

  3,391

  5,151

  2000–01

  Mathematics

  670,858

  18,250

  55,248

  111,725

  150,697

  121,798

  95,976

  58,194

  28,243

  335,920

  640,131

  Physics

  40,602

  7,212

  10,678

  9,742

  8,208

  3,188

  889

  252

  97

  35,840

  40,266

  Chemistry

  40,911

  6,761

  11,103

  10,117

  8,241

  3,211

  903

  228

  59

  36,222

  40,623

  Biology

  48,961

  6,858

  11,185

  11,740

  10,286

  4,778

  1,862

  709

  269

  40,069

  47,687

  History

  197,789

  15,164

  31,241

  38,705

  36,000

  26,915

  20,598

  14,668

  8,739

  121,110

  192,030

  English literature

  499,205

  18,515

  59,512

  112,480

  124,886

  86,740

  50,825

  25,403

  11,707

  315,393

  490,068

  French

  326,065

  22,022

  32,971

  41,496

  71,810

  59,683

  45,143

  31,293

  16,374

  168,299

  320,792

  Geography

  223,525

  17,282

  29,126

  35,964

  50,501

  36,105

  24,721

  15,697

  7,792

  132,873

  217,188

  Economics

  4,694

  246

  650

  1,038

  1,170

  773

  362

  172

  113

  3,104

  4,524

  Source:

  Taken from data collected for the Secondary Performance Tables.

  GCE A-level entries and achievements of all candidates in all schools and further education sector colleges, 1996–97 to 2000–01

  Academic year

  Number of entries

  Grade A

  Grade B

  Grade C

  Grade D

  Grade E

  Grades A-E

  1996–97

  Mathematics

  63,858

  17,078

  12,533

  10,772

  8,961

  6,636

  55,980

  Physics

  29,844

  6,291

  6,350

  5,400

  4,653

  3,446

  26,140

  Chemistry

  38,251

  7,960

  7,991

  6,962

  5,661

  4,574

  33,148

  Biology

  51,477

  7,329

  9,861

  9,736

  9,069

  7,570

  43,565

  History

  38,066

  5,435

  7,007

  7,753

  7,020

  5,101

  32,316

  English literature

  55,905

  9,218

  11,350

  13,072

  11,650

  7,182

  52,472

  French

  22,503

  4,532

  4,514

  4,422

  3,779

  2,770

  20,017

  Geography

  38,581

  4,540

  8,276

  8,979

  7,428

  5,212

  34,435

  Economics

  20,217

  3,186

  3,374

  3,681

  3,604

  2,788

  16,633

  1997–98

  Mathematics

  64,346

  18,103

  12,241

  10,672

  9,049

  6,902

  56,967

  Physics

  30,605

  6,891

  6,264

  5,697

  4,773

  3,492

  27,117

  Chemistry

  38,752

  8,965

  8,061

  7,186

  5,715

  4,304

  34,231

  Biology

  52,260

  8,200

  10,032

  9,942

  9,202

  7,521

  44,897

  History

  36,065

  5,472

  6,849

  7,430

  6,736

  4,625

  31,112

  English literature

  54,026

  9,440

  11,266

  12,761

  11,057

  6,331

  50,855

  French

  20,622

  4,517

  4,291

  4,017

  3,542

  2,429

  18,796

  Geography

  39,337

  5,991

  8,610

  9,145

  7,350

  4,828

  35,924

  Economics

  18,868

  3,323

  3,322

  3,631

  3,192

  2,413

  15,881

  908W 909W

  GCE A-level entries and achievements of all candidates in all schools and further education sector colleges, 1996–97 to 2000–01

  Academic year

  Number of entries

  Grade A

  Grade B

  Grade C

  Grade D

  Grade E

  Grades A-E

  1998–99

  Mathematics

  63,510

  18,073

  11,962

  10,531

  8,791

  6,940

  56,297

  Physics

  30,428

  7,330

  6,042

  5,699

  4,667

  3,484

  27,222

  Chemistry

  37,469

  9,126

  8,015

  7,030

  5,574

  3,965

  33,711

  Biology

  50,159

  8,491

  9,478

  9,775

  8,907

  7,032

  43,683

  History

  34,855

  5,789

  6,803

  7,490

  6,280

  4,055

  30,417

  English literature

  51,163

  9,037

  10,672

  12,389

  10,327

  5,968

  48,393

  French

  18,662

  4,342

  3,853

  3,752

  3,059

  2,131

  17,137

  Geography

  37,500

  6,225

  8,224

  8,756

  7,100

  4,307

  34,612

  Economics

  18,865

  3,560

  3,425

  3,705

  3,293

  2,486

  16,469

  1999–2000

  Mathematics

  60,734

  17,600

  11,543

  10,156

  8,679

  6,222

  54,200

  Physics

  28,945

  7,179

  5,720

  5,312

  4,390

  3,300

  25,901

  Chemistry

  36,696

  9,237

  8,061

  6,823

  5,389

  3,713

  33,223

  Biology

  48,987

  8,436

  9,546

  9,630

  8,609

  6,819

  43,040

  History

  34,488

  5,887

  6,809

  7,575

  6,125

  3,984

  30,380

  English literature

  48,417

  9,066

  10,100

  11,943

  9,720

  5,290

  46,119

  French

  16,049

  3,807

  3,430

  3,194

  2,609

  1,710

  14,750

  Geography

  33,405

  6,029

  7,438

  7,578

  5,980

  3,813

  30,838

  Economics

  17,742

  3,736

  3,261

  3,282

  3,141

  2,250

  15,670

  2000–01

  Mathematics

  61,202

  17,732

  11,362

  9,894

  8,625

  6,607

  54,220

  Physics

  28,725

  7,121

  5,698

  5,260

  4,241

  3,343

  25,663

  Chemistry

  35,138

  9,170

  7,622

  6,512

  4,980

  3,671

  31,955

  Biology

  46,868

  8,519

  9,237

  9,232

  7,945

  6,412

  41,345

  History

  35,032

  6,356

  7,223

  7,636

  6,104

  3,641

  30,960

  English literature

  47,486

  9,403

  9,915

  11,648

  9,351

  4,928

  45,245

  French

  16,102

  4,010

  3,308

  3,150

  2,571

  1,731

  14,770

  Geography

  33,461

  6,387

  7,477

  7,526

  5,948

  3,669

  31,007

  Economics

  17,369

  3,829

  3,263

  3,498

  3,029

  1,964

  15,583

  Source:

  Taken from data collected from the 16–18 School and College Performance Tables.

  Ofsted
  Mr. Andrew Turner
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Skills what requirements were(a) placed on and (b) removed from the Office for Standards in Education in the last year for which information is available. [53892]

  Mr. Timms
  I refer the hon. Member to the reply about the requirements placed on, and removed from, HM Chief Inspector of Schools which I answered on 1 May.

  Teachers
  Chris Grayling
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Skills what reasons underlie the changes in the number of teacher training places since 1997. [54276]

  Mr. Timms
  The number of places on courses of initial teacher training that my right hon. Friend makes available each year is designed to ensure a supply of newly qualified teachers adequate for the forecast needs of maintained schools in England. The total is informed by a statistical model of the demand for new teachers, taking account of the availability of funding and of the capacity of training providers. The number of places available has risen each year since 1999–2000 and, from this September, will be the highest for over a decade.

  Parliamentary Questions
  Mr. Yeo
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Skills if she will list the written questions asked of
  910W
  her between (a) 1 to 30 June 2001, (b) 1 to 31 July 2001, (c) 1 to 30 September 2001, (d) 1 to 31 October 2001, (e) 1 to 30 November 2001, (f) 1 to 31 December 2001, (g) 1 to 31 January 2002, (h) 1 to 28 February 2002, (i) 1 to 31 March 2002 and (j) 1 to 30 April 2002 that had not received a substantive answer by 30 April; and if she will state (i) the name of the hon. Member asking the question and (ii) the reasons the question had not received a substantive answer. [54092]

  Estelle Morris
  The following table provides details of questions tabled to my Department and waiting reply as at 30 April.

  Questioner

  Dates

  PQs outstanding

  Mark Todd

  2–28 February 2002

  1

  John Battle (1)

  1–31 March 2002

  13

  John Bercow (4)

  Colin Breed (1)

  Damian Green (1)

  Lynne Jones (1)

  Eleanor Laing (3)

  Phil Willis (1)

  Tony Wright (1)

  John Bercow (8)

  1–30 April 2002

  68

  Graham Brady (3)

  Alistair Burt (1)

  Brian Cotter (1)

  Ross Cranston (1)

  Claire Curtis-Thomas (1)

  911W

  Questioner

  Dates

  PQs outstanding

  Louise Ellman (1)

  Chris Grayling (9)

  Jane Griffiths (1)

  Alan Hurst (2)

  Lynne Jones (1)

  Julian Lewis (4)

  David Lidington (1)

  Tim Loughton (1)

  John Mann (8)

  Gillian Merron (1)

  Mark Oaten (1)

  Chris Ruane (1)

  Barry Sheerman (3)

  Phyllis Starkey (1)

  Gerry Steinberg (1)

  Matthew Taylor (1)

  Jenny Tonge (1)

  Andrew Turner (8)

  Dave Watts (1)

  Phil Willis (1)

  Shaun Woodward (1)

  James Wray (4)

  These represent less than 8 per cent. of questions tabled to my Department between 1 February and 30 April. We are working towards providing all Members with substantive answers as soon as possible.

  I also refer the hon. Member to the reply given today by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House of Commons.

  Manufacturing (Skills)
  Mr. Hopkins
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Skills what steps she is taking to raise the level of skills in UK manufacturing. [52017]

  John Healey
  Arrangements for training in the manufacturing industry are a matter for employers, as in any other industry. However, my Department has in place a wide range of policies designed to improve the nation's skills base. There are four key elements to our strategy for achieving a high skills, high value added economy, they are to:

  strengthen the links between learning and employment;

  create excellence in vocational learning;

  work with employers to boost skills and productivity;

  promote the adult basic skills strategy.

  Within this context we are developing a network of Sector Skills councils that will engage employers more fully in the planning and delivery of learning and skills. We are pleased that important manufacturing interests such as textiles, oil and gas production, refining and distribution and chemicals manufacture are represented among the trailblazer Sector Skills councils. We are committed to building the conditions in which a successful manufacturing sector can thrive. The network of business-led councils will provide the framework in which to develop a highly skilled workforce that will support improved productivity and innovation in manufacturing companies in the UK.

INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT

  Debt
  Mrs. Spelman
  To ask the Secretary of State for International Development (1) what the value is of the bilateral debt repayments held in trust by the UK; [53615]

  (2) how many of the bilateral debt repayments held in trust by the UK have been repaid to developing countries. [53614]

  Mr. Boateng
  I have been asked to reply.

  As of end of 2001, the UK has been holding in trust a total of £1,057,200 for six countries. Provision is being made to make payment to countries that have reached their Decision Point in this financial year.

  Mrs. Spelman
  To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what recent assessment she has made of the impact of natural disasters on levels of debt sustainability of heavily indebted poor countries. [53656]

  Clare Short
  The Government have been following closely the impact of falling commodity prices on developing countries even before the events of 11 September. At the annual meetings of the World bank and IMF in Ottawa last November, we raised this concern and asked bank and fund staff to revisit the debt sustainability analyses of all commodity dependent low-income countries, including HIPCs. The IMF and World bank analysis, published last month, shows that, although the situation varies from country to country, the external debt indicators for most HIPC countries have deteriorated, and several HIPC countries now face unsustainable debt burdens as a result. Following UK pressure, the World bank and IMF boards have agreed to provide additional relief to countries in this situation. This was reconfirmed at the spring meetings last month.

  Mrs. Spelman
  To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what the total is of public and publicly guaranteed external debt owed by all developing countries; and what proportion of this is owed by the heavily indebted poor countries. [53622]

  Clare Short
  The total public and publicly guaranteed external debt owed by all developing countries to the UK is £21.656 billion, of which £1.356 billion is owed by heavily indebted poor countries (HIPC), as at 31 March 2002. This includes £167 million of aid debts for middle and low-income countries; HIPCs account for £54 million of this. The UK has already written off its aid loans to all the poorest countries, not just HIPCs. However, the outstanding amounts are still included in DFID's accounts, as payments are written off as they become due.

  The remaining amount consists of publicly guaranteed debt owed to ECGD (£21.349 billion, of which HIPCs account for £1.248 billion) and CDC (£140.12 million, of which HIPCs account for £54.21 million). The HIPC figures take account of debt relief to date and will continue to diminish over time as countries complete the HIPC process. The UK's definition of developing countries is based on the Development Assistance Committee (DAC) list of aid recipients at 1 January 2000, which includes countries in transition and middle-income countries.
  913W
  Mrs. Spelman
  To ask the Secretary of State for International Development (1) what human development indicators are taken into account when debt sustainability levels are calculated; and how; [53583]

  (2) whether HIV/Aids levels are taken into account in debt sustainability measurements of the HIPC initiative; [53621]

  Clare Short
  When assessing developing countries' debt sustainability, principally in the context of the heavily indebted poor countries (HIPC) initiative, the IMF and World bank work with Government in the countries themselves to produce detailed forecasts of export growth, GDP growth and new borrowing. These forecasts take account of various factors affecting the countries' economic situation, and the need for concessional borrowing to finance their poverty reduction strategies.

  Childhood Immunisation
  Dr. Gibson
  To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what assessment she has made of the value of childhood immunisation in developing countries. [53895]

  Clare Short
  Immunisation against common childhood diseases are among the most cost effective interventions in health. Reducing the burden of communicable diseases directly benefits child survival and contributes to progress toward the child mortality millennium development goal. Vaccines against diphtheria, measles, pertussis, tetanus, polio, and tuberculosis currently save up to 3 million lives annually worldwide. Of the 30 million children who do not get vaccinated about 25 million live in low income countries.

  Through its support of the Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunisation (GAVI) my Department is helping to achieve higher coverage with routine and new vaccines in poor countries that has the potential to save a further two million lives each year.

  National Insurance
  Mr. Andrew Turner
  To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what her estimate is of the cost in a full year of the Budget changes to employers' national insurance contributions to(a) her Department, (b) agencies of her Department and (c) charities in the overseas development sector. [53888]

  Clare Short
  I estimate that the Budget changes to employers' national insurance contributions will add approximately £400,000 per year to DFID staff costs from April 2003. DFID does not have any agencies as such, and we are not able to estimate the cost to charities in the overseas development sector.

  Parliamentary Questions
  Mr. Yeo
  To ask the Secretary of State for International Development if she will list the written questions asked of her between(a) 1 to 30 June 2001, (b) 1 to 31 July 2001, (c) 1 to 30 September 2001, (d) 1 to 31 October 2001, (e) 1 to 30 November 2001, (f) 1 to 31 December 2001, (g) 1 to 31 January 2002, (h) 1 to 28 February 2002, (i) 1 to 31 March 2002 and (j) 1 to 30 April 2002 that had not received a substantive answer by 30 April; and if
  914W
  she will state (i) the name of the hon. Member asking the question and (ii) the reasons the question had not received a substantive answer. [54094]

  Clare Short
  In the period indicated 1,482 questions were tabled to my Department, of which 99.12 per cent. were substantively answered by 30 April 2002. Twelve questions remain unanswered at present. These are due to the usual inter-Departmental consultations conducted in order to ensure as full an answer as possible is provided to MPs.

  Sudan
  Mr. Cox
  To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what funding her Department has allocated in 2002–03 for projects in the Sudan; and if she will list them. [53687]

  Clare Short
  We have an allocation at the start of this year of approximately £8 million for Sudan. Much of this will be spent on meeting humanitarian needs, the rest on activities in support of the peace process. Activities will largely be determined in-year according to need.

  Overseas Projects
  Mr. Bercow
  To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what recent assessment she has made of the value for money achieved by the National Agency for the Development and Implementation of Reconstruction Programmes in Romania. [49194]

  Clare Short
  The National Agency for the Development and Implementation of the Reconstruction Programmes for the Mining Regions (NAD) was set up as an autonomous agency by the Government of Romania in February 1998. Its remit is to achieve the social and economic regeneration of communities in mining regions. It is still in the process of fully developing its capacity and skills, support for which is being given by my Department and the World bank. It is too early to assess the value for money being achieved by NAD.

  African Farmers
  Ms Atherton
  To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what steps are being taken to ensure that the interests of African farmers are being secured with regard to intellectual property rights. [53370]

  Clare Short
  A number of international agencies, supported by DFID, have assisted developing countries to introduce intellectual property rights regimes for improved crop varieties, which take account of their particular socio-economic circumstances, for example protecting farmers' rights to save seed from one crop to the next. We will continue to support such initiatives and to help ensure that any future developments in international agreements on intellectual property rights regimes, including in the WTO, continue to take account of the needs of developing countries.

  Furthermore, the UK Government has established the UK Commission on Intellectual Property Rights (CIPR), to look at how international intellectual property agreements can best take account of the needs of poor people in developing countries (for further information see http://www.iprcommission.org or telephone +44(0) 2077637162). The Commission will look at many of the

  915W
  issues relating to the developmental impact of intellectual property rights, including the effect of intellectual property rights on poor farmers in developing countries. We expect the Commission to report its recommendations by summer 2002.

  Cambodia
  Mr. Kidney
  To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what assessment she has made of children's(a) participation in primary education and (b) access to health services in Cambodia. [53438]

  Clare Short
  Large numbers of Cambodian children are poor and do not have access to good primary education and health services. The quality of state education provision is low. Net enrolment rates are 78 per cent. at primary level (74 per cent. for girls) reducing to 6 per cent. at upper secondary level (5 per cent. for girls). The primary education sector is currently receiving substantial support from a consortium of donors led by the Asian Development bank, which includes some assistance from my Department.

  State health provision is poor, though improving from a very low base and with notable successes in certain areas, including in combating malaria and HIV/AIDS. Infant and under-five mortality rates are 86 and 122 per 1,000 live births. Since 1992, my Department has committed £20 million to improve access by the poor to health services and for HIV/AIDS programmes. We plan to provide further substantial support in these areas.

  Mr. Kidney
  To ask the Secretary of State for international Development what aid is being directed to Cambodia by(a) the UK and (b) the EU. [53393]

  Clare Short
  In 2001–02 my Department provided £5.8 million and in 2002–03 we expect to spend about £7.5 million, mainly focused on rural development and health, including HIV/AIDS. We contributed £0.58 million to help organise and run the Cambodian commune elections in 2001. The latest figures available for European Union member state and European Commission development assistance for Cambodia relate to calendar year 2000, when member states (including the United Kingdom) provided £62.4 million and the European Community £18.5 million, of which the UK share was £3.5 million.

CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT

  National Lottery
  Nick Harvey
  To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport how her Department defines the principle of additionality with regard the distribution of lottery funds; and if she will make a statement. [51760]

  Mr. Caborn
  Lottery money must not substitute for services already provided by Government and funded by the Exchequer, but it can add to them. There are many desirable projects within the fields of health, the environment and education as well as the arts, sport and heritage, which would not be funded within existing priorities. Lottery money is used both to fund projects which would not receive funding from the Exchequer and 916W
  in some cases to support innovations which, if successful, may eventually become absorbed into mainstream funding.

  National Insurance
  Mr. Andrew Turner
  To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport if she will estimate the cost in the next 12 months of the Budget changes to employers' national insurance contributions to(a) her Departments, (b) agencies of her Department and (c) local government, carrying out functions within the responsibility of her Department. [52069]

  Dr. Howells
  It is estimated that the changes to employers' national insurance contributions announced in the Budget will increase pay costs on average by 0.7 per cent. next year.

  Mr. Greenway
  To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what assessment she has made of the cost to museums, galleries and arts organisations of the proposed increase in national insurance contributions. [52758]

  Dr. Howells
  [holding answer 29 April 2002]: It is estimated that the changes to employers' national insurance contributions announced in the Budget will increase pay costs on average by 0.7 per cent. next year.

  Recruitment
  Dr. Julian Lewis
  To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport how many net additional staff her Department has recruited in each month since June 2001 at(a) executive officer level and (b) administrative level. [52420]

  Dr. Howells
  The number of net additional staff recruited by the Department are shown in the following table:

  Executive officer level

  Administrative level

  Month/type of staff

  Headcount

  FTE1

  Headcount

  FTE1

  June 2001

  Permanent

  -1

  -1

  7

  7

  Casual

  -1

  -1

  0

  0

  Total

  -2

  -2

  7

  7

  July 2001

  Permanent

  1

  1

  -1

  -1

  Casual

  1

  1

  0

  0

  Total

  2

  2

  -1

  -1

  August 2001

  Permanent

  0

  0

  -1

  -1

  Casual

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Total

  0

  0

  -1

  -1

  September 2001

  Permanent

  -2

  -2

  4

  4

  Casual

  -5

  -5

  0

  0

  Total

  -7

  -7

  4

  4

  October 2001

  Permanent

  0

  0

  -1

  -1

  Casual

  1

  1

  0

  0

  Total

  1

  1

  -1

  -1

  917W

  Executive officer level

  Administrative level

  Month/ type of staff

  Headcount

  FTE1

  Headcount

  FTE1

  November 2001

  Permanent

  0

  0

  -2

  -2

  Casual

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Total

  1

  1

  -2

  -2

  December 2001

  Permanent

  -1

  -1

  0

  0

  Casual

  0

  0

  1

  1

  Total

  -1

  -1

  1

  1

  January 2002

  Permanent

  1

  1

  3

  3

  Casual

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Total

  1

  1

  3

  3

  February 2002

  Permanent

  0

  0

  1

  1

  Casual

  0

  0

  1

  1

  Total

  0

  0

  2

  2

  March 2002

  Permanent

  1

  1

  -3

  -3

  Casual

  0

  0

  1

  1

  Total

  1

  1

  -2

  -2

  Grand total

  -4

  -4

  10

  10

  1 Full time equivalent

  National Heritage Memorial Fund
  Sue Doughty
  To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport if she will ensure that the National Heritage Memorial Fund publishes a breakdown of the funds that have been allocated, indicating(a) to whom the funds have been allocated, (b) how long the allocation has been in place and (c) reasons for significant delays in the release of funds to the beneficiaries. [52996]

  Dr. Howells
  The National Heritage Memorial Fund (NHMF) publishes information on grants in its annual report. Funds remain allocated until the grantee draws them down or NHMF is informed that the funds will not

  Period

  Total tabled

  Number outstanding

  UIN

  Date tabled

  Hon. Member for …

  1 to 30 June 2001

  139

  0

  —

  —

  —

  1 to 31 July 2001

  160

  0

  —

  —

  —

  1 to 30 September 2001

  7

  0

  —

  —

  —

  1 to 31 October 2001

  162

  0

  —

  —

  —

  1 to 30 November 2001

  256

  0

  —

  —

  —

  1 to 31 December 2001

  184

  0

  —

  —

  —

  1 to 31 January 2002

  210

  0

  —

  —

  —

  1 to 28 February 2002

  246

  0

  —

  —

  —

  1 to 31 March 2002

  281

  3

  47255

  25 March 2002

  Buckingham

  1 to 31 March 2002

  485335

  26 March 2002

  South Suffolk

  1 to 31 March 2002

  48377

  26 March 2002

  South Suffolk

  1 to 30 April 2002

  142

  11

  52069

  18 April 2002

  Isle of Wight

  1 to 30 April 2002

  51760

  17 April 2002

  North Devon

  1 to 30 April 2002

  52420

  22 April 2002

  New Forest, East

  1 to 30 April 2002

  52471

  23 April 2002

  Crosby

  1 to 30 April 2002

  52506

  23 April 2002

  Milton Keynes, South-West

  1 to 30 April 2002

  52815

  23 April 2002

  South Suffolk

  1 to 30 April 2002

  52851

  23 April 2002

  South Suffolk

  1 to 30 April 2002

  52816

  23 April 2002

  South Suffolk

  1 to 30 April 2002

  52757

  23 April 2002

  Ryedale

  1 to 30 April 2002

  52758

  23 April 2002

  Ryedale

  1 to 30 April 2002

  52759

  23 April 2002

  Ryedale

  918W
  be needed. There are no delays in the release of funds by NHMF, with payment taking on average just 13 working days from the date on which grantees apply to draw on moneys awarded to them. However, delays could occur as a result of changes in the grant recipients' own project timetable which may mean they delay drawing down funds.

  World Tourism Organisation
  Mr. David Marshall
  To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport if she will make a statement on her policy on the United Kingdom joining the World Tourism Organisation. [54069]

  Dr. Howells
  The Government do not believe that there would be value for money in joining the World Tourism Organisation, membership of which would cost an estimated £200,000 a year. However, DCMS does takes an interest in the work of the WTO and offers co-operation in areas such as statistics and best practice in environmentally sustainable development.

  Parliamentary Questions
  Mr. Yeo
  To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport if she will list the written questions asked of her between(a) 1 to 30 June 2001, (b) 1 to 31 July 2001, (c) 1 to 30 September 2001,(d) 1 to 31 October 2001, (e) 1 to 30 November 2001,(f) 1 to 31 December 2001, (g) 1 to 31 January 2002, (h) 1 to 28 February 2002, (i) 1 to 31 March 2002 and (j) 1 to 30 April 2002 that had not received a substantive answer by 30 April; and if she will state (i) the name of the hon. Member asking the question and (ii) the reasons the question had not received a substantive answer. [54093]

  Dr. Howells
  I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer given by my right hon. Friend the President of the Council today.

  Ministers make every attempt to answer questions within the agreed time scales but delays may occur when we are required to obtain information from external sources such as our sponsored bodies. The number of questions still awaiting a reply from the Department at the end of April is shown in the table.
  919W
  In addition, there are a further 30 questions which were tabled to us at the end of April with answers due in May.

TRADE AND INDUSTRY

  Small Business Sector
  Huw Irranca-Davies
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what assessment she has made of the effect the measures announced in the Budget will have on enterprise in the small business sector. [52010]

  Nigel Griffiths
  The Budget will benefit the small business sector through a new zero starting rate and a reduced small company rate for corporation tax; VAT and payroll simplification measures; a new Community Investment Tax Credit, and a range of other measures which are making Britain the best place to start and grow a business.

  Lisbon Agenda
  Mr. David
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if she will make a statement on how the Lisbon agenda is being pursued following the Barcelona summit. [52011]

  Ms Hewitt
  The conclusions agreed at Barcelona registered solid progress on the economic reform agenda.

  I will be ensuring that the Department delivers on the Government's Lisbon commitments.

  Broadband
  Mr. Edwards
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what steps she is taking to assist the roll-out of broadband infrastructure in Monmouthshire. [52012]

  Mr. Alexander
  The UK online annual report in November 2001 set out the Government's strategy for making the broadband market more extensive and competitive.

  Last month BT announced its intention to enable a further 100 telephone exchanges, including in Monmouth, to deliver ADSL services.

  Mr. Bacon
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if she will make a statement on progress towards the Government's target for broadband access. [52029]

  Mr. Alexander
  The UK online annual report (November 2001) assessed the UK's progress in developing an extensive and competitive broadband market.

  Since then, take-up has risen to above 500,000 customers, while coverage has increased with 100 further telephone exchanges now due to be enabled to provide broadband services.

  John Robertson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry how many homes and businesses have a broadband connection. [52014]
  920W
  Mr. Alexander
  The UK now has over half a million broadband connections. This represents a 54 per cent. increase since the beginning of 2002.

  BT's commitment to broadband and their recent price reductions, together with the successful broadband programmes of the cable companies, pave the way for further advances on broadband during 2002.

  Workplace Management
  Mark Tami
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what she is doing to promote among all companies the common characteristics shared by what she considers the best managed workplaces in the UK. [52015]

  Alan Johnson
  We recognise the importance of good people strategies as key drivers of productivity improvement.

  That is why my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State recently announced a £20 million package of support to champion best practice in work organisation, which will:

  expand the Partnership Fund

  extend the reach of the Industry Forum activity

  enhance the Fit for the Future Best Practice Campaign

  support the "100 best companies to work for" list.

  Rural Communities (Utilities)
  Peter Bradley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what assistance her Department provides to rural communities wishing to secure connections to the principal utilities. [52019]

  Mr. Alexander
  Gas, electricity and telephone connections are a contractual matter between consumers and companies within the individual industries, and are not subsidised by the DTI. Companies providing connections are subject to the relevant provisions of primary and secondary legislation, which are designed to encourage connections.

  Universal telecoms providers are required to provide a connection to anyone who reasonably requests it. Electricity distribution networks are required to provide and maintain a connection to any customer requiring electricity within their area. Gas transporters are required to connect all properties within 23 metres of an existing main.

  Steel
  Dr. Francis
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if she will make a statement on the operation of European safeguards introduced to protect the British steel industry. [52020]
  921W
  Ms Hewitt
  The Government will stand by our steel industry and communities in combating the unjustified and deeply regrettable action by the United States. We pressed for and welcome the introduction from 29 March of provisional safeguard measures to protect the UK and EU industry against diversion of trade from the US. We also fully support the action taken by the European Commission in initiating World Trade Organisation action against the US.

  Paul Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what recent consultations she has had with the steel industry. [52013]

  Ms Hewitt
  I have had a number of consultations with steel companies and key organisations representing the steel industry recently. These discussions have focused on US actions to restrict steel imports.

  Advantage West Midlands
  David Wright
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what recent discussions she has had with Advantage West Midlands about promoting Telford as a business location. [52022]

  Alan Johnson
  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has met recently the board of Advantage West Midlands, to discuss region-wide issues such as manufacturing and the region's proposal to become a manufacturing beacon; clearly this will have an impact on Telford.

  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and other DTI Ministers also attend frequent meetings of the RDA chairs, including Advantage West Midlands, where a wide range of issues is discussed, including its broadband and technology cluster proposals.

  Energywatch
  Mr. Lazarowicz
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what measures she has put in place to monitor the effectiveness of Energywatch. [52023]

  Ms Hewitt
  Energywatch is subject to formal and informal in-year monitoring by DTI. The impact that Energywatch has had and the benefits it has delivered against its main aims are measured against its performance indicators. The indicators for 2001–02 were published in 2001 in the document "Measuring Up", and Energywatch's performance against them will be set out in its annual report for 2001–02. Those for 2002–03 are included in the document "What We Plan To Do, Year 2", Energywatch's forward work programme for 2002–03.

  Energy
  Mr. Jack
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry when her Department will respond to the performance and innovation unit report on future energy provisions. [52024]

  Ms Hewitt
  I refer the right hon. Member to the answer given earlier today to the hon. Member for Vale of York (Miss McIntosh).

  Corporate Social Responsibility
  Mr. MacDougall
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what proportion of companies have adopted corporate social responsibility policies; and if she will make a statement. [52026]

  Mr. Alexander
  There is no single measure for the proportion of companies that have adopted corporate social responsibility (CSR) policies. However, 76 per cent. of FTSE 100 companies currently publish information on their social, human rights and environmental performance. In addition, 83 per cent. of companies that feature in the FTSE all-share index are now represented in the FTSE 4Good indices, which reflect the performance on equities regarded as socially responsible.

  It is currently estimated that small and medium enterprises (SMEs) make a social contribution of up to £3 billion per annum.

  The Government will publish their second report on CSR on 14 May, which is designed to drive forward the CSR agenda and encourage more businesses to initiate their own CSR policies.

  Digital Broadcasting
  Mrs. Lawrence
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what measures she is taking to guarantee the future of all three platforms for delivery of digital broadcasting. [52028]

  Mr. Alexander
  The Digital Television Action Plan sets out a wide range of tasks to be undertaken by Government and stakeholders in order to achieve our aim for the UK to have the most dynamic and competitive market for digital TV in the G7, and to enable us to meet the criteria set for the switchover from analogue to digital terrestrial transmissions. The action plan is based on our commitment to enabling consumers to have a choice, wherever possible, of the means by which they access their digital services. Where Government have a principal role to play, as in ensuring that the digital terrestrial platform has sufficient spectrum available to it to enable it to compete effectively, we will do so. However, it is up to the broadcasters and others involved in the provision of digital television services to make the most of what each platform can offer.

  Coal Aid Scheme
  Paddy Tipping
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what discussions she has held with EU partners about a replacement coal aid scheme. [52008]

  Ms Hewitt
  This issue was discussed at the last Energy Council on 5 December last year, attended by my hon Friend the Minister of State for Industry and Construction. There have since been a number of discussions, at official level, in the Council Energy Working Group.

  BCCI
  Mr. Vaz
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if she will make a statement on the meeting between the hon. Member for Leicester, East and the Parliamentary Under-Secretary at her Department on 17 April concerning BCCI. [51564]
  923W
  Miss Melanie Johnson
  I met my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, East together with Mr. Clarke, Mr. Malik and Mr. Qayyum on 17 April to discuss the progress of the liquidation of Bank of Credit and Commerce International SA. I am grateful to my hon. Friend and his colleagues for bringing me up to date with their concerns.

  National Insurance
  Mr. Andrew Turner
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if she will estimate the cost in the next 12 months of the Budget changes to employers' national insurance contributions to(a) her Department, (b) agencies of her Department and (c) local government carrying out functions within the responsibility of her Department, (d) industry, (e) manufacturing industry, (f) aerospace industries, (g) small businesses and (h) self-employed people. [52081]

  Ms Hewitt
  I refer the hon. Member to the reply given to him by my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary on 29 April 2002,Official Report, column 544W.

  Scientific Research
  Dr. Kumar
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if she will make a statement on her action to promote scientific research in the UK, with special reference to research and development spending, training, investment and independent advice. [52547]

  Ms Hewitt
  Scientific research lies at the heart of this Government's policies to stimulate innovation and economic development, and to improve the quality of life. The Science and Innovation White Paper—"Excellence and Opportunity: A science and innovation policy for the 21st century"—was published in July 2000. It set out our strategy for building on the UK's record of scientific excellence, and for ensuring that outputs from scientific research are harnessed in innovative products and services that will yield economic and social benefits for the people of the UK.

  The following are among the actions we are taking to promote scientific research in the UK:
  An increase in total Government investment in Science, Engineering and Technology in real terms of almost 11 per cent. from 2000–01 to £7.6 billion in 2003–04.
  The creation of two tax credits specifically to encourage greater levels of R&D in the UK. The first is aimed at SMEs and offers a 50 per cent. super-deduction on all qualifying R&D, while the Chancellor announced in his recent Budget that to complement the SME Credit, a new straight volume Tax Credit will now he offered to large companies which will benefit from a 25 per cent. super-deduction on all qualifying R&D expenditure.
  We have increased the funding available for postgraduate researchers and are actively encouraging better practice in managing and developing research staff. The Government are considering how to take forward the recently published review by Sir Gareth Roberts on the training of scientists and engineers.
  Our work on the development of strategic priorities for the Research Councils, acting together as Research Councils UK, will serve to increase the relevance of scientific research in the UK and encourage further investment in it.
  The Government are committed to improving the ways it obtains scientific advice and communicates developments in science and science policy. It has published a Code of Practice for Scientific Advisory Committees, and Guidelines 2000 which set out best practice for the use of scientific advice in policy making.

  Business Contacts
  Mr. Andrew Turner
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry on what occasions in the last 12 months she has lobbied in other countries in support of specific contracts; and with what results. [53957]

  Ms Hewitt
  I refer the hon. Member to the answer given to him on 26 April 2002,Official Report, column 490W.

  BP
  Norman Baker
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry in what work Mr. Bob Saunders will be involved at her Department while on secondment from BP. [52159]

  Ms Hewitt
  [holding answer 29 April 2002]: Mr. Saunders will work in Oil and Gas Directorate and will deal with downstream oil industry issues. The specific duties include contributing to policy development and briefing on the downstream oil sector including questions of security of supply, fuel quality, air and water quality and fuelling of vehicles in the longer term.

  The secondment will be subject to contractual terms and conditions, including provisions on avoidance of conflict of interest.

  Disabled Access
  Brian Cotter
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what adjustments have been made to her Department's premises following the introduction of the Disability Discrimination Act 1995; and what the cost of these adjustments was as a proportion of the Department's budget. [53030]

  Ms Hewitt
  [holding answer 29 April 2002]: My Department is committed to ensuring compliance with the requirements of the Disability Discrimination Act. My Department has used the Royal Association for Disability and Rehabilitation to provide specialist advice on how its premises and facilities can be enhanced for people with disabilities. Whenever new works or refurbishment projects are undertaken in premises controlled by the Department the requirements of people with disabilities using the premises are taken into account. Where the Department is a minor occupier of premises we work with the premises landlord to ensure compliance where practicable. Examples include induction loop systems in reception areas; tactile marking, handrails and ramps; low level embossed call buttons and voice announcements in lifts; counters designed to aid wheelchair users; automatically opening doors.

  My Department also has an accommodation focus group for staff with disabilities to discuss their concerns and requirements. For example staff have been supplied with specialist furniture, specialist display screen equipment for those with visual impairments; voice activated personal computers; and teledata fire alarm paging systems.

  My Department does not keep a separate record of all such adjustments or their cost. To produce such information could be done only at disproportionate cost.

  Telephone Systems (Hampshire and Isle of Wight)
  Sandra Gidley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (1) if she will instigate an inquiry into the service level of the telephone system in Hampshire and the Isle of Wight on 25 April and its impact on emergency services; [54026]

  (2) what investigation has taken place into the level of service of the telephone system in Hampshire and the Isle of Wight on 25 April and its impact on emergency services. [54027]

  Mr. Alexander
  I understand that at 18.30 on Thursday 25 April a fault occurred in the equipment at the Southampton Bargate BT telephone exchange. As a result a large number of customers across a wide area in Hampshire, Wiltshire and the Isle of Wight were affected involving the loss of their telephone service including access to the 999 emergency services. BT worked to restore service as quickly as possible and to mitigate the impact on the emergency services including the police. Services were restored to some 80 per cent. of customers by midnight and all others by 03:55 am the following morning.

  Oftel is urgently investigating the causes of this failure and considering what measures should be put in place to avoid it happening again. I have asked the Director General to write to the hon. Member as soon as possible, and to keep me informed.

  Aerospace Industry
  Mrs. Iris Robinson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what representations she has made to the Treasury on the review of the Export Credits Guarantee Department on the impact of changes to the ECGD on the competitiveness of the UK aerospace industry. [53242]

  Ms Hewitt
  DTI and Treasury Ministers meet regularly to consider progress on the programme of work being carried out to strengthen ECGD's risk management systems and evaluate its contribution to the competitiveness of the UK economy. ECGD plays an important role in supporting the UK's aerospace industry and is currently seeking views from customers, including those in the aerospace sector, on the economic benefits it generates.

  Older Women
  Mrs. Humble
  To ask the Minister what assessment she has made of the contribution that women aged over 50 years make to UK prosperity. [52036]

  Ms Hewitt
  Almost 2.4 million women in their 50s are in work. They make up 20 per cent. of the female working population and 9 per cent. of total working population. The New Deal 50 plus has helped over 19,000 women off benefits and back into work since its launch in April 2000.

  Returning to Work
  Mr. Bacon
  To ask the Minister if she will make a statement on the steps she is taking to help mothers return to work. [52039]
  926W
  Ms Hewitt
  We are taking a number of steps. These include introducing, as part of the Employment Bill which is currently before Parliament, a new duty for employers to seriously consider requests for flexible working from parents of young children and improvements to maternity leave and pay. We are also taking forward a range of other measures such as investment in child care, working families tax credit, the New Deal for Lone Parents, the New Deal for Partners, and increased access to adult education.

SOLICITOR-GENERAL

  Press Office
  Mr. Burns
  To ask the Solicitor-General what the total cost of running the Department's press office was in(a) 1996–97 and (b) the latest year for which figures are available. [46800]

  The Solicitor-General
  [holding answer 9 April 2002] The single press officer who acts for both my own Department, the Legal Secretariat to the Law Officers, and the Treasury Solicitor's Department also acts as Private Secretary to the Attorney-General. Costs incurred in relation to the press office aspect of the post cannot be separately calculated.

  No figures are available for the total cost of running the Crown Prosecution Service's press office in 1996–97. The total cost in 2000–01 (the latest year for which figures are available) was £205,269.

  The cost of running the press office of the Serious Fraud Office in 1996–97 was £170,439. The figure for 2001–02, which is provisional, is £201,003.

  User Consultation
  Mr. Bercow
  To ask the Solicitor-General what new steps her Department took in 2001–02 to consult the users of its services about their wishes and expectations; and if he will publish the findings. [47312]

  The Solicitor-General
  [holding answer 10 April 2002]: The Treasury Solicitor's Department has carried out an extensive consultation exercise with clients in the course of the Quinquennial Review of the Department. The findings were reported and published by the Attorney-General on 3 May 2001. In addition, the Treasury Solicitor's Department carried out annual client satisfaction surveys which seek client Departments' views on the legal service it provides and whether those services meet their expectations. These surveys figure among the SDA targets for the Treasury Solicitor's Department, progress on which will be published in the Department's 2002 departmental report.

  The Treasury Solicitor's Department has also recently adopted a client care policy at the core of which is regular contact and discussion with recipients of the legal services they provide.

  The concept of user service satisfaction is not easily applicable to the duties of my own Department, the Legal Secretariat to the Law Officers, the primary function of which is to give legal advice to Government, or to the prosecuting authorities, the Crown Prosecution Service and the Serious Fraud Office. However, in relation to the

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  CPS, following the recommendation made at the Stephen Lawrence Inquiry that the CPS should communicate information about its casework decisions direct to victims rather than the police, the CPS launched its Direct Communication with Victims (DCV) scheme in October 2000. Under this scheme the CPS provides reasons to victims whenever it either drops or alters a charge substantially and, in certain cases, it offers to meet face to face to give a fuller explanation if required. In this way the CPS is able to take into account the wishes and expectations of its users.

  UK Crown Prosecutions
  Harry Cohen
  To ask the Solicitor-General what criteria the CPS uses in determining whether to seek to prosecute in the UK courts, UK nationals accused of committing serious offences abroad; and if she will make a statement. [51796]

  The Solicitor-General
  [holding answer 25 April 2002]: In most cases foreign states would normally prosecute offences committed within their own jurisdiction.

  The general rule is that the English courts do not accept jurisdiction where UK nationals commit offences outside England and Wales in the absence of express provisions to the contrary. Some of these statutory exceptions are:
  Homicide as set out in sections 9 and 10 of the Offences against the Person Act 1861. A British subject therefore, who, in a foreign country, within the dominion of a foreign power, murders either a British subject or a foreigner is triable in England under the express provisions of this section.
  Offences of dishonesty and blackmail contrary to sections 1–6 of the Criminal Justice Act 1993.
  Conspiracy, incitement and attempt to commit the offences listed in the Criminal Justice Act 1993.
  Sex Offenders Act 1997.
  Part 12 of the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001, which applies to offences committed on or after 14 February 2002, extends the ambit of the present offences under common law and statute by making it explicit that they cover both the bribery and corruption of foreign public officials and of those in the private sector when committed wholly abroad. It also extends the jurisdiction of the United Kingdom to include acts committed by UK nationals and companies abroad.

  All such cases are reviewed in accordance with the Code for Crown Prosecutors. The Crown Prosecutor must first be satisfied that there is enough evidence to provide
  "a realistic prospect of conviction".
  If the case passes the evidential test the Crown Prosecutor then has to consider whether a prosecution is required in the public interest. The code gives examples of public interest factors both for and against prosecution but this is not an exhaustive list. A prosecution will usually take place unless there are public interest factors tending against prosecution, which clearly outweigh those tending in favour.

  However, there is often the need to recognise the fact that the foreign state in which the offence was committed may either want or intend to prosecute the UK national for the same offence. This can necessitate discussion between the judicial authorities in the UK and abroad. Such factors as where the victims and witnesses reside and the views of the victim are also taken into account.

  Ministerial Training
  Mr. Bercow
  To ask the Solicitor-General how much has been spent by her Department on voice coaching for Ministers and officials in each of the last five years. [52701]

  The Solicitor-General
  [holding answer 26 April 2002]: Nothing.

  Mr. Bercow
  To ask the Solicitor-General how much has been spent by her Department on training by the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts for Ministers and officials in each of the last five years. [52740]

  The Solicitor-General
  [holding answer 26 April 2002]: Nothing.

  Young People
  Dr. Starkey
  To ask the Solicitor-General on what subjects and on which dates her Department has recently consulted organisations representing young people; and if she will list such organisations. [52493]

  The Solicitor-General
  [holding answer 30 April 2002]: The Departments for which the Attorney-General is responsible have not formally consulted any organisations representing young people. However, the Crown Prosecution Service has worked with the following groups on youth justice issues: Nacro Youth Crime section, SOYA, the Michael Sieff Foundation, Schools Out!, the Children's Society, youth offender teams and Connexions.

  Ronald Maddison
  Matthew Taylor
  To ask the Solicitor-General if she will place in the Library a copy of the request from Her Majesty's Coroner for Wiltshire and Swindon for a fresh inquest into the death of Ronald Maddison. [53394]

  The Solicitor-General
  Following requests for and availability of further information, HM Coroner for Wiltshire and Swindon recently completed an application to the Attorney-General for authority to apply for a fresh inquest into the death of Ronald Maddison. That application was granted on 16 April 2002. The next stage is for the coroner to apply to the High Court for a fresh inquest. If the High Court grants the application, the coroner will hold the fresh inquest with a jury. If that is the case, the jury should reach a verdict on the evidence received at the inquest, free from prejudice. I am not satisfied that publication of the request made by the coroner would not prejudice a jury if there were to be a fresh inquest and therefore I do not consider it to be appropriate to place a copy of the coroner's request in the Library. The coroner shares my view. The facts will be fully canvassed at the inquest if the application is granted.

  CPS
  Mr. Lepper
  To ask the Solicitor-General when the annual report by HM chief inspector of the Crown Prosecution Service for 2000–01 will be published. [54679]

  The Solicitor-General
  The report was laid before Parliament today and will be published tomorrow. It reports on the performance of the Crown Prosecution Service in the period from 1 October 2000 to 30 September 2001.

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS

  Victor Bout
  David Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent developments there have been concerning Victor Bout. [54788]

  Mr. MacShane
  There have been two recent important developments. On 15 April 2002 the UK publication Air Cargo News published an article which alleges that Victor Bout had been involved in the supply of an aircraft for Osama bin Laden in 1995. Prior to 11 September this aircraft had reportedly been frequently overflying Iran from Saudi Arabia to Kabul and Kandahar in Afghanistan. It is now reportedly parked at Jeddah in Saudi Arabia. I shall be asking that the United Nations investigate this very serious allegation as a matter of great importance.

  Following our past approaches to the UAE on the subject of Victor Bout, and the issuing of an international arrest warrant by the Belgian authorities, I am pleased to welcome a recent announcement by the Government of the United Arab Emirates. They have informed the United Nations Angola Monitoring Mechanism that Bout's companies, ie Air Cess and Trans Avia, have been prohibited from operating in the United Arab Emirates. He has also been banned from entering the United Arab Emirates personally.

  I hope that this increased international pressure on Bout will finally result in the end of his sanctions-busting activities and that he will be brought to justice. The UK has played a leading role in drawing international attention to Bout's illegal activities, initially in Angola and Liberia and more recently relating to Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda.

  Iraq
  David Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has made of unaccounted for stocks of Iraqi precursor chemicals, chemical agent and special munitions, based on the findings of the UN Special Commission. [54789]

  Mr. Straw
  In answer to questions on 12 March 2002,Official Report, columns 743–45, I said that weapons inspectors were unable to account for 4,000 tonnes of so-called precursor chemicals used in the production of weapons; 610 tonnes of precursor chemicals used in the production of nerve gas; and 31,000 chemical weapons munitions.

  This information was the best available at the time, and was based on Iraqi declarations to UNSCOM inspectors between 1991–98 and data contained in an UNSCOM report published in 1999.

  Since I gave this answer, Her Majesty's Government have carried out a more detailed study. This latest assessment of the quantities of material unaccounted for by UNSCOM inspectors which has potential applications in Iraq's chemical and biological weapons programmes is as follows:
  Up to 3,000 tonnes of precursor chemicals, approximately 300 tonnes of which, in the Iraqi CW programme, were unique to the production of VX nerve agent;
  Up to 360 tonnes of bulk CW agent including 1.5 tonnes of VX; and
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  Over 30,000 special munitions for delivery of chemical and biological agents;
  Large quantities of growth media acquired for use in the production of biological weapons—enough to produce over three times the amount of anthrax Iraq admits to having manufactured.

  These figures represent our latest assessment. This assessment is subject to continual review in the light of any updates from UNMOVIC or incoming intelligence reports. Some of the estimates are unchanged. The changes we have made do not alter our view on the scale of the Iraqi WMD threat. Indeed, they reinforce our judgment that Iraq's chemical and biological capabilities are substantial and a very real danger to the region and the wider world. We shall be releasing further material about this threat in due course.

  Uganda
  Mr. Menzies Campbell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent representations Her Majesty's Government have made to the Government of Uganda about human rights with specific reference to the conduct of the police towards opposition supporters at a rally in Kampala on 12 January; and if he will make a statement. [52112]

  Mr. Straw
  We follow closely the human rights situation in Uganda and regularly raise our concerns with the Ugandan authorities. We also have regular contact with the Ugandan Human Rights Commission and other HR interest groups such as the Foundation for Human Rights Initiative.

  We take seriously reports of human rights abuses, such as harassment of the opposition. Unfortunately, the 12 January rally resulted in the death of a student. Three policemen were arrested in connection with the incident, but were subsequently released pending further investigation. The high commission continues regularly to stress to the Ugandan authorities the need for effective action to bring those responsible for this death to justice.

  Gibraltar
  Bob Spink
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his policy is on referring the issue of self-determination of the Gibraltar people to the International Court of Justice for an advisory opinion. [53959]

  Peter Hain
  I refer the hon. Member to my reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton, North-East (Mr. Crausby) on 6 November 2001,Official Report, column 121W.

  Mr. Spring
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, pursuant to his answer to the hon. Member for Derby, North on 11 April 2002,Official Report, column 525W, on Gibraltar, whether the sums mentioned that Gibraltar is to receive under European Union structural funding are in pounds or euros. [52487]

  Peter Hain
  The sums referred to are Gibraltar's Structural Fund allocations in euros.

  Racism
  Mr. McNamara
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, pursuant to his answer of 1 March 2002,Official Report, column 1638W,

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  on racism, what further progress has been made in consultation with NGOs in drawing up a national action plan to ensure UK-wide follow-through in line with the action plan drawn up by the UN World Conference on Racism in Durban in September 2001; when he plans to publish a draft action plan for consultation; what events he is considering to discuss this plan; and what measures he will take to ensure the engagement of the devolved regions in this process. [52546]

  Angela Eagle
  I have been asked to reply.

  Responsibility for taking this work forward falls to the Home Office. A working group of representatives from all interested Departments, including the devolved Administrations, is being established with a view to drawing up a national action plan by early summer. This will be done in close consultation with an non-governmental organisation (NGO) steering group which has been specifically set up for that purpose.

  Much of the work recommended in the World Conference Programme of Action is already being undertaken or planned in United Kingdom. We are in the process of mapping out the extent of this work to identify any gaps. We are also considering with the NGO steering group plans for a national consultation exercise to discuss the draft action plan, culminating in a national conference in the autumn.

TREASURY

  Civil Servants
  Paul Flynn
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many civil servants were employed in each of the past 10 years; and what changes have taken place in real terms in their total remuneration. [34083]

  Mr. Andrew Smith
  [holding answer 11 February 2002]: The Office for National Statistics Annual Abstract of Statistics 2002 (ISSN 0072 5730) gives consistent historical data on civil service staff numbers. Numbers for paybill costs within departmental administration costs limits are given in table 5.1 of PESA 2001–02 (Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses, Cm 5101). These are not precisely comparable with civil service staff numbers statistics, as civil servants in the devolved Administrations are excluded, and casual and other non-civil service staff on departmental payrolls are included.

  Aerospace Industry
  Mrs. Iris Robinson
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what assessment he has made of the impact on the competitiveness of the UK aerospace industry of recent changes to the Export Credits Guarantee Department. [53243]

  Mr. Andrew Smith
  The recent changes to the Large Aircraft Sector Understanding (LASU) scheme, under which ECGD provides support for the UK aerospace industry, were made as a result of a 1999 economic study undertaken by ECGD. These changes were delayed to allow time for ECGD to move in concert with its French and German counterparts. The Government are fully committed to supporting in the most effective way possible the competitiveness of all UK companies,932W
  including those in the aerospace sector, who will constitute some of the major beneficiaries of the new R&D tax credit announced on the Budget.

  Pension Contribution Holidays
  Mr. Watts
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will amend the pension rules to remove the ability of companies to take contribution holidays from their employees' pension scheme. [52027]

  Ruth Kelly
  In general, contributions to occupational schemes are determined by the trustees' view of the funding position of the scheme and its likely needs. The Government have no plans to amend the tax rules governing the taking of employer contribution holidays from occupational pension schemes.

  Pornographic Films
  Mr. Laws
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether film tax relief is available for pornographic films made in the UK(a) before and (b) after the restrictions on film tax relief introduced in the April 2002 Budget; and if he will make a statement. [53335]

  Dawn Primarolo
  I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer I gave him on I May.

  Revenue
  Mr. Flight
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will list in cash terms(a) at 2002–03 prices and (b) and as a percentage of gross domestic product, the net taxes and social security contributions for each year since 1996–97, incorporating the accounting changes referred to in Box C2 of the Budget Red Book 2002. [53774]

  Mr. Andrew Smith
  Historical figures for net taxes and social security contributions as a percentage of GDP, consistent with the new OECD classification of personal tax credits, are set out in Table C23 of Budget 2002. An estimate of this ratio for 2001–02 and projections for 2002–03 onwards are shown in Table C10.

  Vehicle Seizures
  Barbara Follett
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if HM Customs and Excise will change its vehicle seizure policy in relation to alcohol and tobacco smuggling as a result of the Court of Appeal decision in the Lindsay case. [54790]

  Mr. Boateng
  The Court of Appeal confirmed in the Lindsay case that Customs vehicle seizure and non-restoration policy in relation to those who smuggle alcohol and tobacco for profit was justified and proportionate. It also confirmed that vehicles used to smuggle on a non-profit basis were similarly liable to seizure. However, the Court considered that in not-for-profit cases a proportionate response, depending on the individual circumstances, would be to offer to restore such seized vehicles.

  Accordingly when Customs detect commercial for profit smugglers, any vehicles used in such smuggling will remain subject to the existing tough seizure and non-restoration policy. However, Customs have now further developed their vehicle seizure policy, taking into account the clarification provided by the Court of Appeal.

  933W
  When Customs detect not-for-profit smugglers their goods and vehicles will be seized but vehicle restoration will ordinarily be offered in the first instance for a sum equivalent to the revenue evaded. There will be a rising scale for any subsequent offences up to non-restoration. Customs will reserve the right to vary their restoration terms according to the aggravating or mitigating circumstances of any individual case.

  This policy will allow Customs to continue their successful approach of hitting those who smuggle for profit with tough sanctions that strike at their illicit trade and also provides a real and proportionate penalty for those who break the law, albeit without such profit-making motivation. It represents a fair and balanced policy.

  Scotland Office
  Mrs. Lait
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make a statement on the implication of his Budget statement for the Scotland Office DEL. [53332]

  Mr. Andrew Smith
  The Scotland Office provision (non-devolved) will be determined in the spending review within the overall Scotland DEL provision to be determined in the spending review. The increases in the Scottish Executive's (devolved) budget in 2003–04 to 2007–08 as a consequence of the increases in health spending announced for England are £224 million, £858 million, £1,576 million, £2,341 million and £3,201 million.

  Property Prices
  Matthew Taylor
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what projected change in property prices underlies the revenue assumptions in Table C8 of the Financial Statement and Budget report 2002; and if he will make a statement. [53404]

  Mr. Andrew Smith
  The revenue forecasts in Table C8 of the FSBR are based on house price data calculated by taking the arithmetic average of the DTLR, Nationwide and Halifax indices available at the time of the Budget. Following this, house prices inflation is projected to moderate towards its long run relationship with earnings, as explained in paragraph B54 of the Financial Statement and Budget Report 2002. Forecasts for house prices are not published.

  Projected Revenues
  Matthew Taylor
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what the reasons are for the change in projected revenues from(a) air passenger duty and (b) capital taxes since the Budget of 2001 shown in Table C8 of the Financial Statement and Budget report 2002; and if he will make a statement. [53405]

  Mr. Boateng
  The change in projected revenues for APD was announced in the pre-Budget report 2001. There are a number of reasons for this change. Last year's global economic slowdown had significant effect on passenger numbers and this was exacerbated by the tragedies on 11 September. There has also been a trend towards economy class travel to European destinations, which are generally charged at the lowest rate of APD. This is attributed in part to the success of the low cost airlines.
  934W
  Explanations of the changes in forecast receipts for capital taxes since the Budget of 2001 are given in paragraphs B48 of the pre-Budget report, November 2001 and C45 of the Financial Statement and Budget Report, April 2002.

  Mental Health Services
  Mr. Heald
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what assessment he has made of the(a) costs and (b) savings to HM Treasury in developing a modern mental health service. [45929]

  Jacqui Smith
  [holding answer 25 March 2002]: I have been asked to reply.

  The Wanless Final Report estimated the costs of developing a world class service at some £3.1 billion per annum, and the net savings across government at £3.1 billion per annum. The Department is studying the Wanless Report with great interest and it will be an important source of analysis and information in the allocation of resources to the service.

  Computer Terminals
  Mr. Cousins
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many on-line computer terminals were available in each division of Customs and Excise in each of the last three years; what assessment was made of system reliability; and who the providers of the IT system were. [53481]

  Mr. Boateng
  The following number of on-line computer terminals were available to Customs and Excise in the last three financial year:

  31 March 2000–18,502

  3I March 2001–1 9,669

  31 March 2002–23,130

  On 31 March 2000 responsibility (and ownership) for desktop and laptop computers passed to ICL (now Fujitsu Services) under a PFI contract. Responsibility for the IT system mainframes remains with Customs and Excise. Mainframe services are provided by in-house staff using mainframes, which have been purchased from Fujitsu.

  Since the transfer of ownership to Fujitsu Services the level of service has been jointly monitored on a monthly basis. Although there were inevitable teething problems during national roll out/hand over, service standards have improved significantly in recent months and the monthly service report for March 2002 records a high level of service in nearly all areas.

  Given major organisational changes within HMCE over the last three years a detailed breakdown of computer availability by division is not available in this format.

  Climate Change Levy
  Sue Doughty
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what the total cost to the Treasury will be(a) at the outset of its introduction and (b) projected in the next three years of (i) an exemption from the Climate Change Levy of fuel used in dual-use purposes and (ii) extending relief to certain processes to certain processes which compete with those benefiting from the dual-use or non-fuel use

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  exemptions; what steps (a) have and (b) will be taken to introduce such exemptions; and if he will make a statement. [537381

  Mr. Boateng
  The dual-use exemption is an integral part of the levy's design and is taken account of in published climate change levy forecasts. Customs have been considering which processes the new exemption will apply to and will be consulting industry and other Government Departments shortly for their views on which processes should benefit, with a view to introducing the exemption at the earliest opportunity. The cost of extending the exemption is expected to be negligible, but will be subject to the definition being finalised.

  Parliamentary Questions
  Mr. Yeo
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will list the written questions asked of him between(a) 1 to 30 June 2001, (b) 1 to 31 July 2001, (c) 1 to 30 September 2001. (d) 1 to 31 October 2001, (e) 1 to 30 November 2001, (f) 1 to 31 December 2001, (g) 1 to 31 January 2002, (h) 1 to 28 February 2002, (i) 1 to 31 March 2002 and (j) 1 to 30 April 2002 that had not received a substantive answer by 30 April; and if he will state (i) the name of the hon. Member asking the question and (ii) the reasons the question had not received a substantive answer. [540781

  Mr. Boateng
  3,255 of the 4,205 (77.4 per cent.) written questions tabled to Treasury Ministers in the present parliamentary Session up to 30 April received substantive replies on or before the dates on which answers were due. Answers have not yet been given to 36 questions, but in 14 of these cases the answers are not overdue.

  Energy Efficiency
  Sue Doughty
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what the total cost to the Treasury will be(a) at the outset of its introduction and (b) projected in the next three years of the extension of the 5 per cent. rate of VAT to apply to the grant-funded installation of (i) factory-insulated hot water tanks, (ii) micro-combined heat and power and (iii) renewable energy heating systems in the homes of the less well-off. [53716]

  Mr. Boateng
  The cost of the reduced rate of VAT for these grant-funded installations at the outset of its introduction and over the next three years will be negligible.

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS

  "Agriculture in the United Kingdom"
  Mr. Tynan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when the latest volume of "Agriculture in the United Kingdom" will be published. [54680]

  Margaret Beckett
  Agriculture in the United Kingdom 2001 will be published on Friday 3 May. Copies of this report will be available from the Libraries of the House on that day. It will also be available in electronic form from DEFRA's website at www.defra.gov.uk/esg.m_publications.htm.

  EU Funding
  Vernon Coaker
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if it is the policy of her Department to claim the outstanding agrimony compensation from the European Commission; and if she will make a statement. [54528]

  Margaret Beckett
  We have considered the case for payment of optional agrimonetary compensation to the livestock sector. While we acknowledge the difficulties that the sector is facing and are working with them on the recommendations of the Policy Commission on Food and Farming, we have decided not to make a claim on these funds given the many competing demands on the Exchequer at present.

  Water Bill
  Mr. Tynan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when the Government will publish its response to the draft Water Bill consultation; and if she will make a statement. [54681]

  Mr. Meacher
  The Government response to the draft Water Bill consultation is being published today. It considers issues raised by over 150 respondents. Copies of the response are being placed in the Library.

  There was general support for the aims of the Bill, although there were inevitably differences regarding a number of the proposals. The main changes that will be in the Bill as a result of the consultation are:
  Ofwat will he governed by a Regulatory Board rather than an individual Director General, along similar lines to other economic regulators. This is instead of the Advisory Panel proposed in the draft Bill.
  Ofwat's duty to ensure that water companies are able to secure reasonable returns on their capital will now be retained.

  The draft Water Bill contains provisions in the broad areas of water resource management and better regulations as well as other specific provisions. In particular the draft Bill contains:
  reform of water abstraction licensing to provide new powers to protect the environment and manage water resources more effectively and a requirement on water companies to prepare drought plans and conserve water;
  amendment of the regulatory framework to improve the position of consumers and improve regulatory certainty, and in particular to set up a new, independent Consumer Council for Water;
  reform of the drinking water regulatory regime to cope with industry restructuring and the possible effects of the Competition Act 1998 giving the Drinking Water Inspectorate greater status, and increasing the level of fines that magistrates can impose; and
  improvement of the regime for controlling polluting discharges, and rationalisation of arrangements for reservoir safety and the regulation of water, sewerage and contaminated land.

  The Government response to the draft Water Bill consultation reflects the Government's continued commitment to placing consumers at the heart of regulation and ensuring environmental sustainability in the water industry.

  We aim to introduce the Bill as soon as parliamentary time allows.

  Meat Imports
  Mr. Liddell-Grainger
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will make
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  a statement on recent changes to the regulations on meat imports; and what action her Department has taken since February 2001 to prevent the import of illegal meat into the UK. [52475]

  Mr. Morley
  We amended legislation on 1 May 2001 to make it easier for local authorities to take action where meat, which could have been imported illegally, is found. Legislation has been laid before Parliament which includes new powers for enforcement officers (already available to customs officers) to search baggage, etc. for illegal imports of animal products.

  Since February 2001 we have taken a range of initiatives aimed at improving our ability to prevent and detect illegal imports of animal products. These initiatives have been co-ordinated by officials in the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, but involve other Departments such as HM Customs and Excise and the Food Standards Agency, and the local authorities who are responsible for controls at ports and airports. We have concentrated on raising public awareness of our import rules through our embassies, and strengthening intelligence gathering and sharing to improve targeting of anti-smuggling measures. We also introduced new posters which are displayed at airports and ports to ensure that travellers are aware of the restrictions on what may be imported. On 28 March we published an action plan. This plan commits Government to a range of measures including completing a risk assessment of disease risks posed by illegal imports of meat. The action plan is available in the Library of the House.

  Solar Panels
  Ian Lucas
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what buildings owned by her Department have solar panels installed. [53488]

  Mr. Morley
  The Department's animal health office at Bury St. Edmunds has solar panels installed to heat the hot water used on the site.

  Rural Proofing Report
  Miss McIntosh
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what was the cost of(a) drafting, (b) printing and (c) distributing the rural proofing report drafted by the countryside agency. [51911]

  Alun Michael
  "Rural Proofing in 2001/02—A report to Government by the Countryside Agency", was published by the countryside agency on II April. Printing costs were £3,417; distribution costs were about £488 in postage and £563 to load the report onto the agency's website. The costs of drafting the report cannot be separated out from the rest of the agency's work.

  Foot and Mouth
  Lembit Öpik
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what the average amount of compensation paid by her Department to individual farmers as the result of the recent foot and mouth disease outbreak was; and if she will make a statement. [53698]
  938W
  Mr. Morley
  The average amount of compensation paid by the Department to individual farmers is £124,755. A total of £1,050 million has been paid to farmers in compensation for animals slaughtered due to foot and mouth disease.

  Lembit Öpik
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what different types of compensation have been paid to farmers by her Department as the result of the recent foot and mouth disease outbreak; and if she will make a statement. 153697]

  Mr. Morley
  There are two types of compensation paid to farmers as a result of the recent outbreak of foot and mouth disease, they are(a) animal compensation for animals slaughtered and (b) non-animal compensation. Non-animal compensation covers cleansing and disinfecting, items seized and destroyed and claims for reinstatement of damaged property.

  Lembit Öpik
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much compensation has been paid by her Department to farmers in(a) the Montgomeryshire constituency and (b) Powys as the result of the foot and mouth disease outbreak; and if she will make a statement. [53696]

  Mr. Morley
  The statutory amount paid in compensation to farmers in Powys county is £35,601,839.00 this includes payment to farmers in Montgomeryshire. It is difficult to establish the exact amount of compensation paid to particular parts of a county or region.

  Mr. Gray
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what the total value was of road haulage contracts for the removal of foot and mouth carcases in Northumberland; what the value was of contracts awarded to Snowie Ltd; and what tendering procedure was used for the awarding of carcase haulage contracts. [45456]

  Mr. Morley
  [holding answer 25 March 2002]: The total value of road haulage contracts for the removal of foot and mouth carcases in Northumberland was £2,857,867 excluding VAT. The value of foot and mouth contracts awarded to Snowie up to mid-March 2002 was £37,751,894 excluding VAT. Carcase haulage contracts were awarded through the negotiated procurement procedure without the prior publication of a notice, and by competitive tendering.

  Mr. Peter Duncan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what claims against her Department remain unsettled in respect of damage to roads and infrastructure in Dumfries and Galloway region inflicted during the foot and mouth outbreak. [52908]

  Mr. Morley
  The claim submitted by Dumfries and Galloway council to the Department in respect of damage allegedly caused to roads and infrastructure in the region during operations to control and eradicate foot and mouth disease referred to in the reply to the hon. Member on 11 February 2002,Official Report, columns 85–86W, has not been pursued. However, I understand that Writs in respect of such damage have been served on Scottish Ministers in relation to certain operational aspects of disease control and eradication in Scotland.
  939W
  Mr. Russell Brown
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what representations she has received from(a) the Scottish Executive and (b) Dumfries and Galloway council for the recovery of moneys used by Dumfries and Galloway council for repairs to roads damaged by work associated with the eradication of foot and mouth disease. [53236]

  Mr. Morley
  [holding answer 30 April 2002]: Officials of Dumfries and Galloway council, the Scottish Executive and the Department met in January. The matter of the council's wish to recover costs relating to repair of road damage allegedly caused during operations to control and eradicate foot and mouth disease was raised. Subsequently, the council wrote to the Department indicating that it was seeking legal advice. I understand that Writs in respect of such damage have been served on Scottish Ministers. Officials of the Scottish Executive and of the Department are in touch about this.

  Pigs
  Mr. Ruffley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will estimate the size of the national pig breeding herd in(a) 2001, (b) 2000 and (c) 1999. [53700]

  Mr. Morley
  The June agricultural and horticultural census estimates the size of the pig breeding herd in England was:

  Thousand

  (a) 2001

  489

  (b) 2000

  503

  (c) 1999

  573

  Notes:

  1. These data relate to main and minor holdings.

  2. The pig breeding herd comprises sows in pig, gilts in pig and suckled or dry sows being kept for further breeding.

  Mr. Robert Watson and Hans Blix
  Joan Ruddock
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if the United Kingdom will support(a) Mr. Robert Watson continuing as Chairman of the InterGovernmental Panel on Climate Change and (b) Hans Blix continuing in his post as Head of the UN Monitoring, Inspection and Verification Commission. [52155]

  Mr. Meacher
  [holding answer 24 April 2002]: In view of Robert Watson's outstanding track record the UK was in favour of his continuation as chair of IPCC. In the event, the IPCC elected Dr. Rajendra Pachauri to the position of chairman.

  The UK supported Hans Blix's appointment as the head of UNMOVIC in 2000. We have every confidence in his continuing chairmanship.

  BSE
  Mr. Tyler
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent studies on the transmissibility of BSE she has commissioned; and if she will make a statement. [53129]
  940W
  Mr. Morley
  [holding answer 29 April 2002]: Within the past 12 months, DEFRA has commissioned two studies investigating BSE transmission. One is using transgenic mice to assess the relative transmissibility of sheep BSE (and sheep scrapie) and cattle BSE to humans. The second study is following the natural spread of BSE from experimentally infected sheep within a breeding flock to establish whether BSE can transmit to TSE free animals and establish itself within the flock.

  In addition to these projects, one study, which is about to begin, will investigate what effect the age at which sheep are experimentally infected with BSE has on the disease. The Department is also funding a study, under way for the past six years, to assess the possibility of maternal transmission of BSE in sheep.

  Within the past year, no further studies have been commissioned to investigate BSE transmission in cattle.

  Regional Advisory Councils
  Mrs. Ann Winterton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will make a statement on the conditions for the setting up of regional advisory councils in connection with the Post 2002 Common Fisheries Policy. [51444]

  Mr. Morley
  The Commission's proposals for the future of the Common Fisheries Policy are now expected imminently: we may expect them, if the Commission follows through with the ideas it envisaged in its Green Paper last year, to propose the establishment of regional committees which would comprise a range of stakeholder representatives. The idea of involving stakeholders more closely in management decisions relating to the fisheries in which they are interested is broadly welcome to us: the precise details of what may be adopted will need to be the subject of consultation with interested UK bodies and then negotiations in the Council of Ministers.

  Farmers
  Mrs. Ann Winterton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what percentage of the farm workforce is aged under 35 years in each European Union member nation; and how much financial aid was claimed by each European Union member nation under the EU system of grants and interest rate subsidies to assist young farmers to enter the agriculture industry in each of the last 10 years for which figures are available. [53202]

  Mr. Morley
  The table shows the latest available information from Eurostat (the Statistics Office for the European Community) on the proportion of the agricultural work force aged under 35 years in each member state. It was not obligatory for member states to collect information on ages of all workers in 1993 and 1997.

  Proportion of workforce aged under 35 years 1

  Percentage

  EU member state

  1989–90

  1993

  1995

  1997

  Belgium

  20

  19

  23

  21

  Denmark

  20

  —

  31

  32

  Germany

  30

  28

  27

  25

  Greece

  19

  23

  18

  17

  Spain

  20

  —

  22

  22

  941W

  Proportion of workforce aged under 35 years 1

  Percentage

  EU member state

  1989–90

  1993

  1995

  1997

  France

  21

  21

  20

  20

  Ireland

  26

  31

  30

  30

  Italy

  17

  16

  15

  16

  Luxembourg

  26

  26

  25

  23

  Netherlands

  32

  —

  32

  —

  Austria

  —

  —

  31

  29

  Portugal

  30

  —

  26

  25

  Finland

  —

  —

  29

  29

  Sweden

  —

  —

  17

  —

  United Kingdom

  28

  —

  24

  —

  Total EU 12

  22

  —

  20

  —

  Total EU15

  —

  —

  21

  —

  1 Excludes non-regular workers (eg seasonal, casual and gang labour)

  Source:

  EC Farm Structure Surveys—Eurostat

  The EU regulation on rural development, which was implemented in 2000, permits member states to provide funds for the setting-up of young farmers as part of their rural development programmes. Expenditure from the EU budget for these schemes, by member state, is shown in the following table. Prior to 2000 other EU member states may have provided aid to young farmers via structural fund programmes or national schemes. We do not have information on any such schemes or the levels of expenditure.

  Rural development programmes EU expenditure on setting up young farmers

  euro million

  2000

  2001

  Belgium

  0.7

  0

  Denmark

  0

  0

  Germany

  1.0

  2.4

  Greece

  0

  0

  Spain

  1.2

  4.7

  France

  22.8

  29.8

  Ireland

  0

  0

  Italy

  19.5

  42.0

  Luxembourg

  0.1

  0.3

  Netherlands

  0

  0

  Austria

  8.0

  8.3

  Portugal

  0

  0

  Finland

  0

  0

  Sweden

  0.3

  0.8

  UK

  0

  0

  Total EU15

  53.6

  88.2

  Newspaper Advertising
  Mr. Bercow
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, pursuant to the answer of 26 March 2002,Official Report, column 829W, on newspaper advertising, how many advertisements have been placed in each of the publications listed since 8 June 2001; and what the (a) purpose and (b) result of each advertisement was. [49927]

  Mr. Morley
  Our records show that we booked the following number of advertisements since June 2001.
  942W

  Number of advertisements

  Regional Papers

  78

  National Press

  8

  Magazines

  55

  Total

  141

  The purpose of newspaper advertisements is to inform and increase general awareness of the Department's policies, aims, activities and procedures. The advertisements may be aimed at any or all of the general public, stakeholders, industry and special interest groups as well as being directed at potential employees and can be targeted locally, by region, or nationally. Measurement of results can be either subjective or quantifiable, many of the advertisements aim for respondent involvement, some advertisements generate other media coverage thereby achieving a wider dissemination of the message.

  To provide the detail for each advertisement as asked for in the question would incur disproportionate cost.

  Staff Pay
  Mr. Bercow
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what have been the total salary costs of each of the non-departmental public bodies for which she is responsible in each of the last five years. [50304]

  Mr. Morley
  The information is contained in the annual reports and accounts of the Department's NDPBs, which are laid before Parliament each year. Copies are deposited in the Library of the House.

  Rural White Paper
  Mr. Breed
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, pursuant to the answer of 30 January 2002,Official Report, column 355W, on the Rural White Paper, what proportion of announced funds and schemes was spent, broken down by category, during 2001–02. [53780]

  Alun Michael
  I refer the hon. Member to my answer of 6 February 2002,Official Report, column 991W, which set out details of the latest available information on expenditure broken down by category.

  Since then I can report the following:

  220 application forms have been issued in respect of the £2 million Government fund to support volunteer and community initiatives to maintain or reopen post office facilities in rural areas. 44 applications worth £375,000 have been approved and the actual amount paid out from September 2001, when the scheme came into operation, to 31 March 2002 is £79,000.

  From April 2001 up to the end of the third quarter, December 2001 Cornwall, Devon, Durham and Lincolnshire partnerships have reported the creation of 8,588 child care places broken down as follows: Durham—2,187, Devon—2,484, Cornwall—2,310, Lincolnshire1,607. Figures up to April 2002 are not yet available.

  The final figures for expenditure in 2001–02 on Rural Bus Subsidy Grant and Rural Bus Challenge are £41.4 million and £11.2 million respectively, a total of £52.6 million.
  943W
  The total outturn for expenditure on the new countryside agency's Vital Villages Grant schemes until 31 March 2002 is: Community Services Grant—£1.7 million, Parish Plans Fund—099,000, Parish Transport Fund—£354,000. In addition grants worth £5.9 million have been approved under the Rural Transport Partnership fund.

  Mr. Breed
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will place the study(a) to identify the key drivers of economic development and social exclusion in rural areas and (b) into rural statistics relating to the Rural White Paper in the Library. [53887]

  Alun Michael
  Both studies have attracted a wide level of interest. Consultation on the economic study of rural areas report is now expected to be complete by early next month. We plan to publish both reports and to place copies in the Library as soon as possible.

  Bovine TB
  Mr. Breed
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many farmers were waiting for bovine TB tests, broken down by constituency, in each month since January 2001. [53759]

  Mr. Morley
  The information is not available in the format requested. Raw data show that at the end of March 2002 there were some 2,200 TB tests overdue in the Cornwall Animal Health Office area.

  In context, at the end of March 2002 some 10,500 TB tests were overdue in the west animal health region and some 25,000 overdue in GB.

  Mrs. Ann Winterton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment she has made of changes to the geographical incidence of reported cases of bovine TB in herds in the last five years; and what impact this has had on the deployment of her Department's bovine TB testing and control resources. [53205]

  Mr. Morley
  In the last five years the known higher incidence areas, such as Cornwall, Devon and Gloucestershire in the south and west of England and south and mid-Wales, have seen increases in the number of incidents of bovine TB. In addition to these, new areas of infection have been identified in Derbyshire and Staffordshire. The restart of TB testing after the foot and mouth disease outbreak has disclosed an increase in incidents in the areas with higher incidence of bovine TB. Outside of these areas it is not yet clear whether the scattered incidents come from movement of infected cattle or new foci of disease.

  As herds with bovine TB are identified greater veterinary resource is targeted to testing herds in the surrounding area, usually on a parish basis. Currently the greatest deployment of state veterinary resource on bovine TB testing is to be found in the parishes of the south and west of England and the south and west Wales. Most routine TB testing is carried out on behalf of the State Veterinary Service by local veterinary practitioners employed as local veterinary inspectors (LVIs).

  Common Fisheries Policy
  Mr. Wray
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what proposals the Department has made at EU level to reform the common fisheries policy. [51236]

  Mr. Morley
  The Government set out their views on the future of the common fisheries policy in September 2001, in response to the Commission's Green Paper on the subject.

  Our primary aim must be a policy which is both economically and environmentally sustainable and which offers stakeholders greater involvement in management decisions affecting them. Only in that way will the CFP attract support and credibility from fishermen and so ensure responsible stock management and offer the prospect of a viable future. I strongly agree with the Commission's conclusions in their Green Paper on the operation of the CFP that it is not meeting its objectives. The Commission's actual proposals for the future of the CFP, which we need in order that these vital negotiations can start, are now expected imminently.

  Press Subscriptions
  Mr. Yeo
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will list the magazines and periodicals subscribed to by her Department, stating for each subscription the(a) number of copies taken and (b) annual cost. [52822]

  Mr. Morley
  [holding answer 26 April 2002]: DEFRA has 1,376 subscriptions which are centrally managed, the annual cost of the centralised subscriptions is £75,816.89.

  There may be local magazine and periodical subscription arrangements for agencies and decentralised budget holders.

  To list the magazines and periodicals and obtain details of the decentralised expenditure for these subscriptions could only be done at a disproportionate cost.

  Incinerators (Animal Disposal)
  Mr. Breed
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will list the names, locations and percentage out of the total number of those commercial incinerators deemed adequate for the disposal of animals following a future animal disease outbreak. [53798]

  Mr. Morley
  Six commercial large-animal incinerators in England and Wales have indicated they are willing to dispose of animals culled under foot and mouth disease control measures. Negotiations and contractual arrangements have yet to be finalised and as a result, the names and locations cannot be disclosed. The total weekly disposal capacity of these six sites is approximately 17,000 sheep or 1,900 cattle.

  At present, as set out in the Interim Contingency Plan, incineration will be the initial preferred disposal route in a disease outbreak, but in the event of escalation, additional disposal routes, including rendering and licensed commercial landfill, will be employed.

  Environment Agency
  Dr. Jack Cunningham
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether it is the policy of her Department to allow the Environment Agency to(a) reduce the resources devoted to freshwater fisheries and (b) increase expenditure on other aspects of the agency's work; and if she will make a statement. [52482]

  Mr. Morley
  [holding answer 29 April 2002]: The controls on financial, staffing and related matters are defined in the Environment Agency Financial Memorandum, prepared by DEFRA and the National Assembly for Wales and agreed with the agency. Revenue from rod and net licence duties, together with this Department's fisheries grant-in-aid are used for salmon and freshwater fisheries purposes only, unless otherwise agreed.

  Dr. Jack Cunningham
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will take steps to ensure that the Environment Agency BRITE proposals do not result in a transfer of funding and manpower from freshwater fisheries activities to other areas of the agency's responsibilities; and if she will make a statement. 152483]

  Mr. Morley
  [holding answer 29 April 2002]: I refer my right hon. Friend to the reply I gave him on 18 March 2002, Official Report, column 129W.

  Agrimonetary Compensation
  Mr. Flook
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what the average time that agrimonetary compensation payments were overdue in(a) England, (b) the south-west and (c) Somerset was in 2001–02. [53308]

  Mr. Morley
  Payments of agrimonetary compensation in England due to be made in the financial year 2001–02 were nearly all made in that period. We have not interrogated the databases necessary to provide details of late payments as this could be done only at disproportionate cost.

  Curry Moor, Somerset
  Mr. Flook
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when Curry Moor in Somerset was registered as a reservoir; what consultation, and with whom, there was ahead of the registration; what measures were taken to assess the social and environmental impact of the reservoir on Curry Moor; who has responsibility for the reservoir; and whether the reservoir has its completion certificate. [53309]

  Mr. Meacher
  I understand that the Curry Moor embankment was built in the 12th century for flood protection. The Environment Agency was granted planning permission in July 1999 to carry out strengthening works to ensure its continuing safety as one of the agency's flood prevention works. These works started in May 2001 and have not yet been completed so no final certificate has been issued by the construction engineer. In recognition of its potential to retain a significant volume of water artificially, Somerset county council, as the enforcement authority for the purposes of the Reservoirs Act 1975, registered the embankment as 946W
  forming part of a large raised reservoir in March 2002. Registration under the 1975 Act is necessary for all reservoirs which are designed to hold, or are capable of holding, more than 25,000 cubic metres of water above natural ground level. No consultation is required for registration purposes.

  Organic Waste
  Mr. Don Foster
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what recent steps have been taken to encourage composting of organic(a) kitchen and (b) garden waste from (i) domestic and (ii) commercial properties by local authorities; [52382]

  (2) what her Department's (a) national and (b) local targets for (i) domestic and (ii) commercial composting of organic waste are; [52384]

  (3) what funding is available to local authorities to increase levels of composting; and by how much funding has changed for each year since 1997. [52383]

  Mr. Meacher
  The Government strongly supports composting as a way of disposing of biodegradable waste, improving soil quality and replacing non-renewable products such as peat. Although the land spreading of composted kitchen/catering waste is currently prohibited under animal health legislation, we are actively encouraging the composting of green waste—at home, at municipal civic amenity sites and when separately collected by local authorities.

  The Waste and Resources Action Programme (WRAP) are currently working with the Composting Association to develop the existing industry standard for compost, to achieve British Standards Institute (BSI) accreditation. The delivery of these industry standards for compost will help to create markets for organic waste derived products.

  Targets have been set for England and Wales to recycle or compost at least 25 per cent. of household waste by 2005. This national target is backed up by statutory targets for each local authority in England for 2003–04 and 2005–06.

  The 2000 spending review allocated £220 million private finance initiative funding for waste management that can be used to deliver increased recycling/composting rates. It also established a new £140 million household waste and recycling fund to help local authorities meet their statutory performance standards for recycling and composting.

  The principal funding for local authority waste management functions, including composting, is the Environmental Protection and Cultural Services (EPCS) standard spending assessment. The spending review 2000 set the Government's support for local authorities for the three years up to 2003–04. This included an annual increase in the revenue support to local authorities for environmental protection and cultural services (EPCS). By 2003–04 this support will have risen by £1.1 billion over the 2000–01 provision. Consistent with the general local authority financial framework, it is for individual local authorities to decide the proportion of their budget that should be directed to waste management work.

  The average annual increase in the EPCS standard spending assessment block since 1997–98 has been 3.3 per cent.
  947W
  Future funding for local authority waste management will be determined in the 2002 spending review.

  Flood Defence
  Mr. Liddell-Grainger
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what future plans there are to increase funding to the Environment Agency for flood defence. [53450]

  Mr. Morley
  This Department provides grant (and supplementary credit approvals to local authorities) to the Environment Agency, local authorities and internal drainage boards for flood and coastal defence capital works in England. The total provision available, and the Environment Agency's share of it, is increasing as shown in the table:

  £ million

  2001–02 Provisional outturn

  2002–03 Allocation

  2003–04 Provision

  Total

  91.0

  106.0

  114.0

  Of which:

  Environment Agency

  61.5

  65.0

  1—

  1 Not yet allocated

  The provision available for 2003–04 will be allocated to authorities later this year.

  The other main source of funding for the Environment Agency are levies paid by local authorities. The figures are as follows:

  £ million

  2001–02

  233.7

  2002–03

  247.8

  2003–04

  1—

  1 To be decided in early 2003

  Funding levels for future years will be considered in this year's spending review.

  Rural Areas (Budget)
  Mr. Peter Ainsworth
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment she has made of the effect of the Budget on rural areas. [51983]

  Margaret Beckett
  [holding answer 23 April 2002]: Many of the measures in the Budget will benefit rural areas. In particular rural businesses are overwhelmingly small businesses and the Budget measures aimed at helping small businesses will benefit rural areas. The commitments given on increased benefits for health care and education will also help rural areas, as will the decision to exempt the provision of employer-subsidised bus services from tax. Measures to support neighbourhood renewal and to help disadvantaged areas, for example the abolition of stamp duty on non-residential property transfers in those areas, will also help the relatively few rural districts suffering severe social deprivation.

  Battery Farming
  Norman Baker
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether she intends to ban the beak trimming of birds kept in battery cages; and if she will make a statement. [49281]

  Mr. Morley
  [holding answer 15 April 2002]: Council Directive 99/74/EC prohibits all mutilation but permits member states to authorise beak trimming provided it is carried out by qualified staff on chickens that are less than 10 days old and intended for laying. It is intended that the directive will be implemented in England without being added to in any way. We do expect beak trimming to be ended as soon as practicable and we will be discussing with the egg industry and breeders the best way to achieve this.

  Ministerial Training
  Mr. Bercow
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much has been spent by her Department on training by the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts for Ministers and officials in each of the last five years. [52738]

  Mr. Morley
  [holding answer 26 April 2002]: Ministers in this Department are able to take advantage of the "Programmes for Ministers" organised by the Centre for Management and Policy Studies (CMPS) in the Cabinet Office.

  Since the formation of this Department in June 2001 no departmental training has been provided to Ministers and officials by the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts.

  Mr. Bercow
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much has been spent by her Department on training in leadership skills for Ministers and officials in each of the last five years. [52712]

  Mr. Morley
  [holding answer 26 April 2002]: Ministers in this Department are able to take advantage of the "Programmes for Ministers" organised by the Centre for Management and Policy Studies (CMPS) in the Cabinet Office.

  Since the formation of this Department in June 2001, £492,878 has been spent on a departmental centrally funded leadership programme for the senior civil service in DEFRA and for other senior managers in key leadership roles.

  Mr. Bercow
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much has been spent by her Department on voice coaching for Ministers and officials in each of the last five years. [52699]

  Mr. Morley
  [holding answer 26 April 2002]: Ministers in this Department are able to take advantage of the "Programmes for Ministers" organised by the Centre for Management and Policy Studies (CMPS) in the Cabinet Office.

  Since the formation of this Department in June 2001 no departmental costs have been incurred on voice coaching for Ministers and officials.

  Energy Conservation
  Sue Doughty
  To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment she has made of the (1)(a) past and (b) future impact on carbon dioxide emissions of the enhanced capital allowances for investments in energy saving technologies introduced in April 2001; [53728]

  (2) impact on carbon dioxide emissions of the enhanced capital allowances for investments in (a) heat pumps, (b) radiant and warm air heaters, (c) solar heaters, (d) energy efficient refrigerator equipment, (e) compressor equipment and (f) energy-saving technology investments in assets for leasing. [52721]

  Mr. Boateng
  I have been asked to reply.

  The energy-saving technologies introduced in 2001 are forecast to save at least 0.5 million tonnes of carbon a year by 2010. The technologies to be added in 2002 are expected to save a further one million tonnes of carbon to 2010, with the greatest contributions from radiant and warm air heaters, and refrigeration compressors. Savings will depend on the uptake and evolution of the scheme.

PRIVY COUNCIL

  Overtime Payments
  Mr. Bercow
  To ask the President of the Council what his policy is on overtime payments for staff in his Department. [49130]

  Mr. Robin Cook
  My policy is that, where staff work extra hours, they should be properly recompensed for it. Accordingly, all staff in my Department, except for members of the senior civil service, are entitled to claim overtime for work done in excess of their conditioned hours.

  Parliamentary Questions
  Mr. Yeo
  To ask the President of the Council if he will list the written questions asked of him between(a) 1 to 30 June 2001, (b) 1 to 31 July 2001, (c) 1 to 30 September 2001, (d) 1 to 31 October 2001, (e) 1 to 30 November 2001, (f) 1 to 31 December 2001, (g) 1 to 31 January 2002, (h) 1 to 28 February 2002, (i) 1 to 31 March 2002 and (j) 1 to 30 April 2002 that had not received a substantive answer by 30 April; and if he will state (i) the name of the hon. Member asking the question and (ii) the reasons the question had not received a substantive answer. [54079]

  Mr. Robin Cook
  Ministers have an obligation to Parliament to ensure that Members receive a substantive response to their named day question on the named day and to endeavour to answer an ordinary written question within a working week of it being tabled.

  Ministers and their Departments should make every effort to ensure that the live load of questions still awaiting a substantive reply should be kept to a minimum at all times.
  950W
  For my Department, only one question tabled by the hon. Member for Buckingham remained unanswered for the period in question, which was due in part to work pressures in the Department.

  The hon. Member for Buckingham will receive a response to his question today.

WALES

  Parliamentary Questions
  Mr. Yeo
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list the written questions asked of him between(a) 1 to 30 June 2001, (b) 1 to 31 July 2001, (c) 1 to 30 September 2001, (d) 1 to 31 October 2001, (e) 1 to 30 November 2001, (f) 1 to 31 December 2001, (g) 1 to 31 January 2002, (h) 1 to 28 February 2002, (i) 1 to 31 March 2002 and (j) 1 to 30 April 2002 that had not received a substantive answer by 30 April; and if he will state (i) the name of the hon. Member asking the question and (ii) the reasons the question had not received a substantive answer. [54086]

  Mr. Paul Murphy
  At the close of business on 30 April the following questions (excluding this one) had not received a substantive answer:

  2001

  1 June to 30 June—none

  1 July to 31 July—none

  1 September to 30 September—none

  1 October to 31 October—none

  1 November to 30 November—none

  1 December to 31 December—none

  2002

  1 January to 31 January—two, John Bercow MP

  1 February to 28 February—none

  1 March to 31 March—one, Tony Wright, MP; one, Nigel Evans MP; one, Llew Smith MP

  1 April to 30 April—one, Phyllis Starkey MP; three, Nigel Evans MP; one, Matthew Taylor MP.

  It is my practice to answer questions as quickly as possible, consistent with the need to provide meaningful answers.

  Of the 10 questions listed above, five had been with my Department for four working days or less on 30 April. The remainder asked for information which was not immediately available in the form requested and so required some additional time to compile.

  Rheumatology Services
  Mr. Evans
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what recent discussions he has had about the provision of rheumatology services in Wales. [53105]

  Mr. Paul Murphy
  I have regular discussions with Cabinet Colleagues and National Assembly Ministers, about a range of issues affecting Wales.

  I understand that the Assembly is currently considering with the national health service the provision of rheumatology services as part of the National Service Framework in Wales.

LORD CHANCELLOR'S DEPARTMENT

  Delegated Legislation
  Mr. Bercow
  To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department (1) what assessment she has made of the cost-effectiveness of the High Court and County Courts Jurisdiction (Amendment) Order 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52666]

  (2) the Civil Procedure (Modification of Enactments) Order 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52650]

  (3) the Legal Advice and Assistance (Amendment No. 3) Regulations 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52674]

  (4) the Distress for Rent (Amendment) Rules 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52684]

  (5) the Criminal Defence Service (General) Regulations 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52680]

  (6) the Criminal Defence Service (Funding) (Amendment) Order 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52681]

  (7) the Transport Tribunal (Amendment) Rules 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52682]

  (8) the Criminal Defence Service (Representation Order Appeals) Regulations 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52679]

  (9) the Civil Courts (Amendment) Order 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52685]

  (10) the Referrals to the Special Commissioners Regulations 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52686]

  (11) the Human Rights Act 1998 (Amendment No. 2) Order 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52683]

  (12) the Social Security Commissioners (Procedure) (Amendment) Regulations 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52622]

  (13) the Legal Aid in Criminal and Care Proceedings (Costs) (Amendment) Regulations 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52676]

  (14) the Land Registration Fees Order 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52677]

  (15) the Criminal Defence Service (Choice in Very High Cost Cases) Regulations 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52678]

  (16) the Legal Advice and Assistance at Police Stations) (Remuneration) (Amendment) Regulations 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52675]

  (17) the Legal Aid in Family Proceedings (Remuneration) (Amendment No. 2) Regulations 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52672]

  (18) the Social Security Contributions (Decisions and Appeals) (Amendment) Regulations 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52687]

  (19) the Pensions Appeal Tribunals (England and Wales) (Amendment No. 2) Rules 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52673]
  952W
  (20) the Land Registration (District Registries) Order 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52642]

  (21) the Value Added Tax Tribunals (Amendment) Rules 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52644]

  (22) the Community Legal Service (Financial) (Amendment No. 2) Regulations 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52645]

  (23) the Civil Legal Aid (General) (Amendment No. 2) Regulations 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52630]

  (24) the Criminal Defence Service (Funding) (Amendment No. 3) Order 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52643]

  (25) the Litigants in Person (Costs and Expenses) (Magistrates' Courts) Order 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52640]

  (26) the Legal Aid in Criminal and Care Proceedings (Costs) (Amendment No. 2) Order 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52641]

  (27) the Financial Services and Markets Tribunal Rules 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52655]

  (28) the Magistrates' Courts Committees (Constitution) (Amendment) Regulations 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52652]

  (29) the High Court and County Courts Jurisdiction (Amendment No. 2) Order 2001; and if he will make a statement; [52653]

  (30) the Magistrates' Courts (International Criminal Court) (Forms) Rules 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52654]

  (31) the Greater London Magistrates' Courts Authority (Constitution) (Amendment) 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52651]

  (32) the Licensed Conveyancers' Discipline and Appeals Committee (Procedure) Rules Approval Order 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52648]

  (33) the Court of Protection (Amendment) Rules 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52647]

  (34) the Civil Procedure (Amendment No. 4) Rules 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52649]

  (35) the Insurers (Winding Up) Rules 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52634]

  (36) the Immigration and Asylum Appeals (Procedure) (Amendment) Rules 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52626]

  (37) the Crown Court (Amendment) (No. 3) Rules 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52628]

  (38) the Public Trustee (Notices Affecting Land) (Title on Death) (Amendment) Regulations 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52629]

  (39) the Employment Appeals Tribunal (Amendment) Rules 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52621]

  (40) the Magistrates' Courts (Detention and Forfeiture of Terrorist Cash) (No. 2) Rules 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52627]
  953W
  (41) the Civil Procedure (Amendment No. 6) Rules 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52624]

  (42) the Civil Procedure (Amendment No. 5) Rules 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52625]

  (43) the Public Record Office (Fees) (No. 2) Regulations 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52639]

  (44) the Financial Services and Markets Tribunal (Legal Assistance Scheme, Costs) Regulations 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52636]

  (45) the Financial Services and Markets Tribunal (Legal Assistance) Regulations 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52637]

  (46) the Contracting Out of Functions (Tribunal Staff) Order 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52638]

  (47) the Bankruptcy (Financial Services and Markets Act 2000) Rules 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52635]

  (48) the Contracting Out (Administration and other Court Staff) Order 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52632]

  (49) the Community Legal Service (Cost Protection) (Amendment No. 2) Regulations 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52631]

  (50) the Community Legal Service (Financial) (Amendment No. 3) Regulations 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52633]

  (51) the Justices' Clerks (Qualifications of Assistants) (Amendment) Rules 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52658]

  (52) the Civil Procedure (Amendment No. 3) Rules 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52660]

  (53) the Children (Allocation of Proceedings) (Amendment No. 2) Order 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52661]/
  (54) the Community Legal Service (Funding) (Amendment No. 2) Order 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52646]

  (55) the Parental Responsibility Agreement (Amendment) Regulations 2001; and if he will make a statement; [52659]

  (56) the Legal Aid in Family Proceedings (Remuneration) (Amendment No. 3) Regulations 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52656]

  (57) the Damages (Personal Injury) Order 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52657]

  (58) the Criminal Defence Service (Funding) (Amendment No. 2) Order 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52671]

  (59) the County Court Fees (Amendment) Order 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52668]

  (60) the General Commissioners of Income Tax (Costs) Regulations 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52669]
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  (61) the Justices and Justices' Clerks (Costs) Regulations 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52670]

  (62) the Enforcement of Road Traffic Debts (Amendment) Order 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52667]

  (63) the Inner London Court Staff Pension (Amendment) Order 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52664]

  (64) the Criminal Defence Service (General) (No. 2) Regulations 2001; and if she will make a statement; [52663]

  (65) the Civil Procedure (Amendment No. 2) Rules 2001; and if she will make a statement. [52665]

  Ms Rosie Winterton
  I refer the hon. Member to the written answer I gave to him on 1 May 2002,Official Report, column 863W.

SCOTLAND

  European Union Directives
  Mr. Bercow
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if she will list the European Union directives and regulations relating to her Department that have been implemented in each of the last four years, specifying(a) the title and purpose of each, (b) the cost to public funds of each and (c) the cost to businesses of each. [39113]

  Mrs. Liddell
  Since the Scotland Office was established on 1 July 1999 no European Union directives or regulations have been implemented by my Department.

  Scottish Financial Enterprise
  Mrs. Lait
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland when she plans to meet Scottish Financial Enterprise; and how many times she has met them since becoming Secretary of State. [41607]

  Mrs. Liddell
  I refer the hon. Member to my answer of 25 March 2002,Official Report, column 685W.

  Parental Leave Directive
  Mr. Bercow
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what estimate she has made of the(a) financial costs and (b) benefits to her Department of the Parental Leave Directive. [42487]

  Mrs. Liddell
  The Scotland Office was established in its present form on 1 July 1999. To date there have been no applications for parental leave in the department.

  My department is committed to helping its staff achieve a better balance between their home, family obligations and their work. Parental leave can play an important part in achieving this. We believe it will lead to greater commitment and morale among staff with families and to help reduce staff turnover.

  Access to Information
  Tony Wright
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if she will list the administrative manuals and internal guidance which her Department has made public
  955W
  as required by Part 1 of the Code of Practice on Access to Government Information; and which of these were first made available after May 1997. [45404]

  Mrs. Liddell
  Since my Department was established on 1 July 1999 the Scotland Office Service Delivery Agreement, the Scotland Office Charger and the Scotland Office Departmental Annual Reports have been publicly available. These give details of the service the public can expect to receive from my Department, and its record against these standards.

  Scottish Interests
  Mrs. Lait
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps she has taken to represent Scottish interests to the Department for Work and Pensions on pensions issues. [46348]

  Mrs. Liddell
  I have frequent meetings with Department for Work and Pensions Ministers and discuss a wide range of matters with them.

  Shipyards
  Pete Wishart
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what recent discussions she has had with the Scottish Executive on helping shipyards in Scotland to market themselves(a) abroad and (b) within the UK. [45963]

  Mrs. Liddell
  [holding answer 26 March 2002]: The Clyde Shipyards Task Force set out recommendations to promote the Clyde Yards. I shall continue to have regular discussions with Scottish Executive Ministers about how we might support these and other Scottish shipyards at home and abroad.

  Whisky Strip
  Mr. Weir
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) what representations she has received from the tourist industry in Scotland on the impact of the whisky strip on miniature whiskies produced for the tourist industry; [48040]

  (2) what representations she has received from the gift packaging industry in Scotland on the impact of the introduction of a whisky strip for whisky miniatures used in producing gift packs; [48041]

  (3) what representations she has received from the whisky industry on the impact of the whisky strip on the production of miniature whiskies. [48039]

  Mrs. Liddell
  [holding answer 10 April 2002]: I have received formal submissions from the Scotch Whisky Association and the Gin and Vodka Association covering a wide range of concerns on the introduction of fiscal marks on spirits. I have also received informal representations.

  It was clear from the consultation process that the introduction of tax stamps would have a severe impact on the productivity and compliance costs of the spirits industry which, if passed on in full, could have had a significant impact on retail prices for spirits. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer therefore decided to pursue a joint programme of co-operation with the spirits industry to identify, track and trace illicit consignments of spirits, not involving strip stamps.

  Smart Card Technology
  Mr. Laurence Robertson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if she will make a statement on the use of smart card technology in her Department and in the areas for which it is responsible; and what discussions she has had with private companies about the use of smart card technology within her Department. [50473]

  Mrs. Liddell
  [holding answer 16 April 2002]: My Department does not provide services directly to the public and I have had no discussions with private companies about the use of smart card technology. The office of the e-Envoy has established a working group to consider policy on smart cards for the United Kingdom

  Minimum Income Guarantee
  Mr. Davidson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many pensioners in Glasgow, Pollok are receiving the minimum income guarantee; and what estimate she has made of the numbers of those who are eligible but have not claimed. [52479]

  Mr. Foulkes
  In the Glasgow, Pollock constituency, some 3,600 people benefit from the minimum income guarantee. Estimates of the number of pensioners eligible but not claiming minimum income guarantee are not available below Great Britain level. Figures for Great Britain are included in the publication "Take Up of Income Related Benefits: Statistics for 1999-2000".

  Tartan Week
  Mr. Peter Duncan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what involvement her Department had in the Tartan Week celebrations in the USA. [52559]

  Mrs. Liddell
  The First Minister and other representatives of the Scottish Executive and the Scottish Parliament attended the Tartan Day celebrations. I and my Department were happy to provide support. The First Minister and I share the view that such events can lend support to the Friends of Scotland initiative.

  Grangemouth Refinery
  Mr. Connarty
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what discussions she, her Ministers and officials have held with BP over future plans for the Grangemouth refinery since January; and if she will make a statement. [53593]

  Mr. Foulkes
  I visited BP's complex at Grangemouth on 22 April and met with senior BP management. We discussed their long-term plans for sustaining the future of this very important complex and the contribution it makes to both the local and Scottish economy.

  Parliamentary Questions
  Mr. Yeo
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if she will list the written questions asked of her between(a) 1 to 30 June 2001, (b) 1 to 31 July 2001, (c) 1 to 30 September 2001, (d) 1 to 31 October 2001, (e) 1 to 30 November 2001, (f) 1 to 31 December 2001, (g) 1 to 31 January 2002, (h) 1 to 28 February 2002, (i) 1 to 31 March 2002 and (j) 1 to 30 April 2002 that had not received a substantive answer by 30 April;

  957W
  and if he will state (i) the name of the hon. Member asking the question and (ii) the reasons the question had not received a substantive answer. [54089]

  Mrs. Liddell
  I refer the hon. Member to the answer given today by my right hon. Friend the President of the Council. As at 30 April—due in no small part to the increasing number of 'round robin' questions—37 written questions await a reply. These will lbe answered as soon as possible.

  New Deal
  Mr. Bercow
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many people employed by her Department under the New Deal for Young People in each of the last four years have subsequently(a) found unsubsidised employment for more than 13 weeks and (b) returned to jobseeker's allowance or other benefits. [45084]

  Mrs. Liddell
  Information on New Deal appointees who have now left my Department is not held centrally.

DEFENCE

  84 Squadron
  Mr. Jenkin
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when he plans to withdraw the Wessex helicopters in service with 84 Squadron; and what aircraft will be used to replace them. [49768]

  Mr. Ingram
  On current plans we expect to withdraw the Wessex helicopters of 84 Squadron from RAF service on 31 March 2003. They will be replaced by the Bell 412 Enhanced Performance helicopter.

  National Insurance
  Mr. Andrew Turner
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will estimate the cost in the next 12 months of the Budget changes to employers' national insurance contributions to(a) his Department, (b) agencies of his Department, (c) each of the armed forces and (d) employers in respect of time spent by employees on reserve forces service. [52082]

  Mr. Ingram
  I refer the hon. Member to the answer given on 29 April 2002,Official Report, column 544W, by my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary (Mr. Smith).

  Mr. Jenkin
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will estimate the full year cost of Budget changes to national insurance to the MOD in the first year of its operation. [53528]

  Mr. Ingram
  The full year cost to the Ministry of Defence of the Budget changes to employers' national insurance contributions in 2003–04 is estimated to be some £60 million.

  Transport Aircraft
  Mr. Cousins
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many transport aircraft have been chartered and leased to operate on behalf of British armed forces(a) for ISAF and (b) as part of the operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan; and from which (i) sources and (ii) countries the leased aircraft have come. [52115]
  958W
  Mr. Hoon
  As at 22 April, a total of 89 aircraft have been chartered/leased in support of the International Security Assistance Force. With one exception, these were sourced through UK-based commercial aircraft brokers. 69 have been provided by various Russian airlines, nine by Ukrainian airlines and nine by a Latvian airline. An Armenian airline provided an aircraft over a period. An Iranian aircraft was sourced through a commercial company based in Germany.

  64 aircraft were sourced through UK-based aircraft brokers in support of Operation Enduring Freedom, 52 from a Russian and 12 from a Latvian airline.

  Service Accommodation
  Mr. Hancock
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will list the responses, by percentage in each category of answer, from members of the(a) Royal Navy, (b) Royal Air Force and (c) Army in the latest available continuous attitude survey to questions regarding (i) service family accommodation and (ii) single living accommodation; and if he will make a statement. [52106]

  Dr. Moonie
  The purpose of the continuous attitude surveys is to ascertain the attitude of personnel towards a range of service conditions including accommodation. Senior staff and policy makers use the information gathered from the surveys to identify which policies are seen to be working and to inform subsequent policy development work.

  The surveys are purely a management tool and would risk losing their significance if published out of context. It is also relevant that, in order to encourage full participation, respondents are assured of the continuing anonymity of their inputs. I am therefore withholding the information requested in accordance with Exemption 2 of the Code of Practice on Access to Government Information.

  Royal Navy
  Mr. Keetch
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will list the total requirement of the Royal Navy, broken down by ship type, in(a) 1997, and (b) 2002 and planned for (c) 2007, (d) 2012 and (e) 2017; and if he will make a statement. [52113]

  Mr. Ingram
  The term "requirement of the Royal Navy" is not one that is generally recognised by the Ministry of Defence, however the number of Royal Navy ships and submarines in service in 1997 and 2002 as well as the currently planned numbers for 2007 are shown in the following table.

  Vessel type

  1997

  2002

  2007

  Submarines

  15

  16

  13

  Aircraft Carriers

  3

  3

  3

  Landing Platform Docks

  2

  10

  2

  Landing Platform Helicopter

  0

  1

  1

  Destroyers

  12

  11

  11

  Frigates

  23

  21

  21

  Minehunters

  18

  22

  22

  Offshore Patrol

  8

  7

  5

  Patrol Craft

  15

  16

  16

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  Vessel type

  1997

  2002

  2007

  Ice Patrol Ship

  1

  1

  1

  Survey Ships

  6

  3

  4

  1 HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark the new replacement landing platform docks are planned to enter service in 2003

  Beyond 2007 numbers are dependent upon continuing analysis and evaluation and upon decisions about how particular capability requirements might in future most cost-effectively be met.

  Aircraft
  Mr. Keetch
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will list the total requirement of the(a) RAF and (b) Royal Navy, broken down by aircraft type in (i) 1997, (ii) 2002 and planned for (iii) 2007, (iv) 2010 and (v) 2017; and if he will make a statement. [52133]

  Mr. Ingram
  [holding answer 25 April 2002]: Holdings of RAF and Royal Navy aircraft in 1997 and 2002, and planned holdings in 2007—including both operational aircraft and those in sustainment fleets but excluding aircraft operated by the Defence Procurement Agency and QinetiQ—are set out. A separate table shows the aircraft which form the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight.

  Beyond 2007, numbers are dependent upon continuing analysis and evaluation and upon decisions about how particular capability requirements might in future most cost-effectively be met. In some areas the capabilities currently provided by RAF and RN aircraft may be provided under service provision contracts with commercial partners under PFI arrangements—in these cases fleet sizes and aircraft types will normally be a matter for the service provider to determine in light of the specified requirement.

  RAF aircraft

  Requirement

  Current planning assumption

  Type

  1997

  2002

  2007

  A400M

  0

  0

  0

  Astor

  0

  0

  4

  BAel25

  8

  6

  6

  BAel46

  3

  2

  2

  Bulldog1

  116

  0

  0

  C17

  0

  4

  4

  Canberra

  9

  7

  0

  Chinook2

  34

  —

  —

  Dominie3

  10

  11

  11

  Eurofighter

  0

  0

  78

  JSF

  0

  0

  0

  FSTA

  0

  0

  1

  Gazelle4

  21

  0

  0

  Glider—Vigilant

  53

  57

  56

  Glider—Viking

  82

  89

  84

  Glider—Valiant

  4

  0

  0

  Glider—Janus

  2

  0

  0

  Harrier5

  70

  83

  75

  Hawk3,6,7

  100

  118

  112

  Hercules

  56

  51

  51

  Islander

  2

  2

  2

  Jaguar

  54

  66

  35

  Jetstream3

  10

  11

  11

  Nimrod

  29

  24

  24

  Puma2

  37

  —

  —

  Sea King Mk3

  25

  25

  25

  Sea King replacement

  0

  0

  0

  960W

  RAF aircraft

  Requirement

  Current planning assumption

  Type

  1997

  2002

  2007

  Sentry AEW1

  7

  7

  7

  Tornado F3

  107

  113

  72

  Tornado GR

  142

  187

  142

  Tristar

  9

  9

  9

  Tucano3

  73

  126

  126

  Twin Squirrel8

  0

  3

  —

  VC10

  26

  20

  19

  Wessex9

  50

  4

  0

  1 Training now provided under the Light Aircraft Flying Task (LAFT) contract.

  2 Support Helicopters now form part of the Joint Helicopter Command (Army).

  3 The UK Military Flying Training System (UKMFTS) requirement to replace current fixed wing aircrew training aircraft (Tucano, Hawk, Jetstream and Dominic) will potentially be met through a PFI contract.

  4 Training now provided under contract by Defence Helicopter Flying School.

  5 Excludes RN Sea Harriers (see RN table as follows).

  6 RAF requirement excludes aircraft for RN Fleet Requirement and Aircraft Direction Unit (FRADU) tasks.

  7 The specific capability required to meet the non aircrew-training tasks currently performed by the Hawks has yet to be determined.

  8 Leased aircraft for VIP transport, current contract runs to March 2004.

  9 Cyprus SAR only until 2002, to be replaced by contractor operated aircraft from April 03.

  The Battle of Britain Memorial Flight currently consists of:

  Type

  Total Aircraft Holding 1997

  Total Aircraft Holding 2002

  Dakota

  1

  1

  Hurricane

  2

  2

  Lancaster

  1

  1

  Chipmunk T10

  1

  1

  Spitfire

  5

  5

  RAF aircraft

  Requirement

  Current planning assumption

  Type

  1997

  2002

  2007

  Gazelle

  8

  8

  0

  Hawk1

  15

  14

  15

  Jetstream2

  15

  13

  13

  Light Utility

  —

  —

  6

  Helicopter

  —

  —

  —

  Lynx

  82

  80

  362

  Merlin

  2

  38

  41

  Sea Harrier4

  49

  54

  0

  Sea King5

  111

  88

  67

  1 The specific capability required to meet he tasks currently performed by the Hawks has yet to be determined.

  2 The UK Military Flying Training System (UKMFTS) requirement to replace current fixed wing training aircraft (Jetstream T2) will potentially be met through a PFI contact. Numbers and types of aircraft to meet the requirement would be a matter for the contractor. The remainder of the Jetstream aircraft (Jetstream T3), employed in the communications role, have a later OSD.

  3 Our current planning assumption is that the Lynx Mk 3 and 8 will be replaced by the Surface Combatant Maritime Rotorcraft, in the latter part of the decade.
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  4 Under the Joint Force Harrier migration plan the Sea Harrier will be withdrawn from service by Apr 2006.

  5 Our current planning assumption is that the Sea King MK4 (and Puma) will be replaced by the Support and Amphibious Battlefield Rotorcraft programme. The Anti Submarine Sea King force is being replaced by the Merlin Mk I. Numbers shown reflect this run down.

  Nuclear Weapons
  Mr. Keetch
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what capabilities have been developed to verify the reduction in nuclear weapons since July 1998; and if he will make a statement. [51489]

  Mr. Ingram
  [holding answer 25 April 2002]: Following commitments made in the Strategic Defence Review the Ministry of Defence has developed its capability to consider technologies, skills and techniques which may be utilised in the verification of the reduction and elimination of nuclear weapons. The MOD published a paper entitled 'Nuclear Verification' in April 2000 which summarised the work of an initial study by the Atomic Weapons Establishment Aldermaston which examined the United Kingdom's capabilities to verify the reduction and elimination of nuclear weapons. A verification research programme has also been established to cover further technical and systems studies and this is continuing. MOD will continue to maintain its awareness of technologies which may be relevant to the verification of nuclear disarmament.

  Defence Diplomacy Mission
  Mr. Keetch
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the enhanced arms control programme set up under the Defence Diplomacy Mission of the strategic defence review; how many staff were dedicated to this programme in(a) July 1998 and (b) April 2002. [51259]

  Mr. Ingram
  [holding answer 25 April 2002]: Principal achievements of the enhanced arms control programme under the Defence Diplomacy Mission of the strategic defence review have included:

  Nuclear arms control
  After withdrawal of the RAF's freefall nuclear bomb, Trident is now our only nuclear system. All WE-177 warheads have been dismantled, as have all Chevaline warheads. The operationally available stockpile has been reduced to fewer than 200 warheads, which is a reduction of more than 70 per cent. in the potential explosive power of our nuclear forces since the cold war. The readiness of our nuclear forces has been reduced. Only a single Trident submarine is now on deterrent patrol, carrying 48 warheads. The submarine patrol is normally on several days' "notice to fire" and its missiles are de-targeted.

  Fissile material no longer required for defence purposes has been placed under international safeguards and all enrichment and reprocessing facilities in the UK are now subject to Euratom safeguards and liable to international inspection by the IAEA. The MOD has become more transparent about its nuclear and fissile material stockpiles. The Ministry of Defence published a report on Historical Accounting and Plutonium in April 2000.

  The MOD has taken a lead in promoting the issue of the international verification of nuclear arms reductions arid commissioned the Atomic Weapons Establishment
  962W
  (AWE) Aldermaston to conduct studies. An initial report entitled Nuclear Verification was published in April 2000 and a programme has begun to develop UK expertise in verifying the reduction and elimination of nuclear weapons internationally.

  The MOD worked with the FCO to enable the UK to play a key role in the successful agreement of a final document at the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty Review Conference in 2000 which set out a programme of action for the next five years.

  The MOD has supported FCO efforts leading to the UK signature and ratification of the protocols to the treaty of Pelindaba (African Nuclear Weapon Free Zone) in 2001. It has played an active role in establishing the verification mechanisms for the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban treaty (CTBT) through scientific support to the Provisional Technical Secretariat of the CTBT organisation in Vienna and, together with the FCO, has continued to promote its early entry into force.

  Biological and toxin weapons convention

  The MOD has provided expert technical and policy advice as part of the delegation to the ad hoc group in Geneva negotiating a protocol to strengthen the biological and toxin weapons convention (BTWC), as well as the delegation to the BTWC Review Conference, including drafting a number of important technical papers. In particular, DSTL Porton Down made a leading contribution to the technical aspects of the draft protocol and drafted a thorough and well received review of scientific and technological developments to inform the Review Conference. This input has been a key factor enabling the UK to play a leading role in these negotiations. The MOD has also contributed substantially to the Green Paper on Biological Arms Control to be published by the Foreign Secretary on 29 April.

  Chemical weapons convention

  The MOD has also provided expert technical and policy advice as part of the delegation to the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) in The Hague, including drafting a number of important technical papers. This input has played a key part in enabling the UK to play a leading role in the OPCW. We have provided a programme of training to enhance the capabilities of OPCW inspectors. This year we have contributed £50,000 to the OPCW voluntary fund to provide assistance to states in the event that they are attacked with chemical weapons. We have continued to conduct annual practice challenge inspection exercises to test our own responses and to help provide training to the OPCW inspectors. DSTL Porton Down is one of some 12 laboratories world wide that has achieved and retains the status of designation by the Director-General of the OPCW for the analysis of chemical samples. With the FCO, we have worked bilaterally with a number of states to clarify issues arising from their declaration of relevant facilities and activities under the chemical weapons convention.

  Russia

  We have initiated a programme of assistance to Russia with destruction of its chemical weapons and for biological non-proliferation projects, contributing up to £12 million over three years. We have successfully negotiated a treaty with Russia covering this assistance, which the Defence Secretary signed on 20 December 2001. We have also attracted to the UK programme

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  contributions worth some euro 2 million and £1.4 million from the EU and Norway respectively, which MOD will manage on their behalf.

  Conventional arms control

  Since July 1998 the Joint Arms Control Implementation Group (JACIG) has conducted or hosted some 400 inspections or visits related to existing arms control treaties, such as the Conventional Armed Forces in Europe (CFE) treaty, or confidence and security building agreements, such as Vienna Document 1999. This includes 45 missions related to the Open Skies treaty. These have involved regular contact with all 54 other nations in the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), although inspections are not conducted on or by other NATO nations. In addition, JACIG has conducted a variety of bilateral activities, outside formal treaty requirements, designed to foster good working relationships with a number of OSCE nations, particularly with Russia and countries in the Balkans. These have included running language training and arms control inspectors' courses, lecturing at overseas institutions, and providing technical expert advice in a variety of forums.

  We played a positive role in the convention on certain conventional weapons (CCW) in gaining a mandate to take forward discussions to address explosive remnants of war.

  We have supported implementation of the Ottawa convention in a number of ways, including through the provision of a member of staff, jointly with the Department for International Development, to the Geneva International Centre for Humanitarian Demining.

  Export control regimes

  Together with the FCO we have achieved a well established outreach programme to 12 countries on export control and non-proliferation. We have increased the effectiveness of the Wassenaar Arrangement, which covers the transfers of conventional weapons and dual-use material, particularly with respect to information sharing a transparency. We have agreed guidelines on the export of man-portable air defence systems (MANPADS) and criteria for judging destabilising transfers of conventional weapons. We have also been instrumental in the restructuring of the Nuclear Suppliers Group.

  Iraq

  An MOD representative played an active role in the UN Secretary-General's panel which proposed the new UNMOVIC (United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission), on which MOD provides the UK commissioner. We have also assisted in the training of UNMOVIC inspectors.

  Working with other Departments

  The MOD works closely with the FCO as well as the DTI, DfID and other Government Departments to formulate arms control policy, negotiate in international forums and implement non-proliferation measures.
  964W
  Staff numbers

  The staff numbers involved in MOD work on arms control as part of the Defence Diplomacy Mission are as follows:

  Staff numbers

  (a) July 1998

  134

  (b) April 2002

  140

  Note:

  Numbers are full-time equivalents rounded to nearest whole number. They include both civilian and military staff. They exclude those in a support role and work conducted for other Departments.

  Naval Vessels
  Mr. Jenkin
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what plans he has to put further Royal Navy vessels at states of low readiness. [52895]

  Mr. Ingram
  [holding answer 26 April 2002]: The plan to hold HMS Sheffield at extended readiness from November 2002 until September 2004 was declared on 4 March 2002, Official Report, column 34W.

  On current plans, and commensurate with force levels endorsed within the SDR, HMS Invincible will be held at extended readiness from 2006 until she is withdrawn from service towards the end of this decade.

  It has been decided that the Type 42 Destroyer HMS Glasgow will be placed at extended readiness from May 2002 to early July 2002. This will not affect the Royal Navy's ability to meet its current level of commitments during that priod.

  Army Manpower
  Patrick Mercer
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when the Army training regiments will accept their last infantry recruits. [53050]

  Mr. Ingram
  All adult Standard Entry Infantry recruits will henceforth receive both initial and specialist training at the School of Infantry at Catterick in North Yorkshire on a combined course. Junior Entry Infantry recruits will receive their basic training at either the Army Training Regiment (ATR) at Bassingbourn in Cambridgeshire or the Army Foundation College at Harrogate; they then move to Catterick for Phase 2 specialist Infantry training. It is our intention that no Infantry training will in future be carried out at other ATRs, although a number of adult Standard Entry recruits are still completing their initial training at ATR Glencorse, ATR Lichfield, ATR Pirbright and ATR Winchester.

  Armed Forces
  Mr. Jenkin
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the in-year requirement for UK trained Army, Naval Service and Royal Air Force personnel has been in each of the past five years; and what the requirement will be in 2003. [53606]
  965W
  Mr. Ingram
  The in-year requirements for UK trained personnel for each of the past five years are detailed in the following table.

  Naval Service

  1Army

  2RAF

  1 April 1997

  42,911

  103,353

  56,445

  1 April 1998

  41,937

  102,825

  54,527

  1 April 1999

  40,943

  102,389

  53,024

  1 April 2000

  39,863

  103,086

  52,160

  1 April 2001

  39,897

  103,926

  51,594

  1 This represents the requirement for UK Trained Army Personnel (UKTAP) and excludes the requirement for the Full Time Reserve Service (FTRS) personnel and Gurkha Trained Army Manpower (GURTAM)

  2 Figure excludes the requirement for FTRS personnel

  The requirement on 1 April 2003 for the Naval Service is currently assessed at 38,321 personnel and for the RAF it will be approximately 49,000. Detailed work is still under way to determine the Army's requirement for 2003.

  National Missile Defence
  Dr. Tonge
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what recent discussions his Department has had with(a) EU member states and (b) the EU Commissioner for External Relations, regarding a European Union view on national missile defence. [53599]

  Mr. Hoon
  None. Missile defence is not a matter for the European Union.

  Dr. Tonge
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what agreements have been made with the USA regarding the use of UK facilities at(a) Fylingdales and
  (b) Menwith Hill. [53585]

  Mr. Ingram
  The use of the Ballistic Missile Early Warning Station at RAF Fylingdales by the United Kingdom and the United States is governed by an exchange of notes between the British Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and the American ambassador, dated 15 February 1960.

  As with other UK bases that are made available to the United States visiting forces, the use of RAF Menwith Hill is governed by the NATO Status of Forces Agreement of 1951 and additional confidential arrangements.

  Dr. Tonge
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what recent discussions his Department has had with UK firms bidding for work on the US-initiated programme of national missile defence; and if he will make a statement. [53598]

  Mr. Hoon
  Expertise relating to missile defence was developed by a number of the United Kingdom companies during the Technology Readiness and Risk Assessment Programme sponsored by the Ministry of Defence. An unclassified summary of the report was placed in the Library of the House on 26 February 2002. Regular discussions with firms take place as part of continuing activity in this area.

  Afghanistan
  Mr. Cox
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will estimate the number of civilians who have been 966W
  killed in Afghanistan since the commencement of international coalition military action against terrorists in that country; and if he will make a statement. [53751]

  Mr. Hoon
  I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave on 12 December 2001,Official Report, column 860W, to my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Lynne Jones).

  Missile Defence
  Mr. Hancock
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the prospects are for a missile defence system that can cover the European countries of NATO; and if he will make a statement. [53692]

  Mr. Hoon
  The United States has made clear that it wishes to see friends and allies protected from the emerging threat posed by ballistic missiles. However, it has yet to put forward any detailed plans.

  Sea Harriers
  Mr. Jenkin
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, pursuant to his answer of 16 April 2002,Official Report, columns 823–4W, on Sea Harriers, if he will estimate the value of the savings to which he refers in column 824W. [53534]

  Mr. Ingram
  [holding answer 30 April 2002]: I refer the hon Member to the answer I gave to him on 29 April 2002 Official Report, column 531W.

  Medical Treatment (Waiting Times)
  Mr. Gerald Howarth
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many(a) officers and (b) other ranks are awaiting medical treatment; and how many of these have been waiting over three months. [53872]

  Dr. Moonie
  Service patients are mainly treated in Defence Secondary Care Agency (DSCA) administered Ministry of Defence Hospital Units (MDHUs) situated in National Health Service (NHS) Trusts, in other NHS hospitals as NHS patients or in DSCA Directly Managed Units in the United Kingdom and overseas. The Army administers secondary care in Northern Ireland. The British Forces Germany Health Service provides secondary care for Service personnel in Germany, where there are generally no waiting lists.

  The MOD only maintains central records on the overall number of Armed Forces patients awaiting inpatient treatment (including daycase surgery) at MDHUs. MDHU waiting list information as at 31 December 2001 for all MDHUs except Portsmouth, for which the waiting list information is at 30 September 2001, is provided in the following table. These are the latest dates for which information is available.

  Waiting time (months)

  Number of service patients waiting

  0–3 months

  1,166

  3+ months

  897

  Total waiting

  2,063

  Princess Royal Barracks, Deepcut (Fatalities)
  Mr. Hawkins
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what special inquiries have been undertaken in relation to two recent deaths from bullet wounds at Princess Royal Barracks, Deepcut, near Camberley, Surrey; and if he will make a statement. [53885]

  Dr. Moonie
  The recent deaths of two soldiers at the Princess Royal Barracks, Deepcut, are the subject of on-going investigations by the Surrey police. An Army Board of Inquiry will be held into each incident in due course, although this cannot take place until such time the associated police investigations are complete.

  Pay
  Mr. Keetch
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many service personnel(a) with children and (b) without children in the (i) Army, (ii) Royal Navy and (iii) RAF are earning under £92.90 per week after tax and national insurance deductions; and if he will make a statement. [53762]

  Mr. Ingram
  I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave on 25 April 2002,Official Report, column 425W. The minimum rate of pay for armed forces personnel (for Army new entrants under 17 only) is currently £8,997 per annum. As this is considerably greater than £92.90 per week (£4,830.80 per annum) and the adult new entrant rate is even higher at £10,778 per annum, an individual in the armed forces would not, therefore, receive as little as £92.90 per week after normal tax and national insurance contributions.

  Comprehensive information on parental status is not held, for example on those single personnel with children, or married with a spouse with children from a previous relationship. Information on the parental status of individual armed forces personnel in receipt of specific rates of pay could be provided only at disproportionate cost.

  Warship Support Modernisation Initiative
  Syd Rapson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what assurances will be given on the terms and conditions for the staff to be transferred to the private sector as part of the Warship Support Modernisation initiative. [54787]

  Mr. Ingram
  Following successful discussions between officials from my Department, MOD trade unions and the prospective partnering companies, my Department and the partnering companies have signed a Joint Statement of Intent on the transfer of staff to the private sector under the Warship Support Modernisation initiative. The Joint Statement of Intent gives assurances that current terms and conditions, including redundancy provision, will transfer in full in compliance with the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) regulations and the MOD TUPE Code of Practice. New pension arrangements, broadly comparable to those currently enjoyed under the Principal Civil Service Pension Scheme, will be offered to those who transfer.

  The partnering companies have stated their intention to achieve any changes to pay and conditions of employment through consultation and negotiation. It is also their intention to achieve any job reductions that may arise through natural wastage and voluntary means to avoid
  968W
  compulsory redundancies. The companies confirm their commitment to work fully with the recognised trade unions after the transfer. These assurances are set out in full in the Joint Statement of Intent, a copy of which will be placed in the Library of the House.

WORK AND PENSIONS

  Pensions
  Mr. Frank Field
  To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what proportion of single male pensioners aged(a) 70 and under, (b) 71 to 75, (c) 76 to 80 and (d) over 80 years had an income below 60 per cent. of the median income in each of the last 10 years. [53803]

  Mr. McCartney
  The information is not available in the format requested. Such information as is available is in the table.

  Proportion of single male pensioners below 60 per cent. of median

  Percentage of pensioners

  Income threshold: 60 per cent. of median

  Before housing costs

  After housing costs

  Including the self-employed

  1991–92

  23

  30

  1992–93

  18

  28

  1993–94

  17

  26

  1994–95

  17

  23

  1995–96

  17

  22

  1996–97

  17

  25

  1997–98

  18

  28

  1998–99

  18

  28

  1999–2000

  18

  26

  2000–01

  16

  24

  Excluding the self-employed

  1991–92

  21

  29

  1992–93

  18

  28

  1993–94

  16

  25

  1994–95

  16

  22

  1995–96

  16

  21

  1996–97

  16

  24

  1997–98

  18

  28

  1998–99

  17

  27

  1999–2000

  18

  25

  2000–01

  16

  23

  Notes:

  1. All figures are estimates and are taken from the Households Below Average Income (HBAI) series. From 1991–92 to 1993–94 data are derived from the Family Expenditure Survey (two calendar years combined for 1991–92 and 1992–93 and two financial years combined for 1993–94). From 1994–95 to 2000–01, data is derived from the Family Resources Survey and represents singe financial years. The Family Resources Survey does not include Northern Ireland, and the latest year for which data are available is 2000–01.

  2. The estimates are sample counts, which have been adjusted for non-response using multipurpose grossing factors. Estimates are subject to both sample error and to variable in non-response. The income measure used is weekly net (disposable) equivalised household income (that is to say income that is adjusted to reflect the composition of the household).

  3. The estimates are presented on both a Before Housing Costs (BHC) and an After Housing Costs (AHC) basis in line with HBAI conventions. Figures are provided excluding the self-employed, as research suggests that, for self-employed people, income as reported in surveys is often a poor indicator of living standards. HBAI convention is to present results excluding the self-employed, presenting results including the self-employed where the two differ.
  969W
  Mr. Frank Field
  To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if he will set out the differences in eligibility criteria for each category of people claiming the(a) basic state pension and (b) state second pension. [52100]

  Mr. McCartney
  People can qualify for a full basic state pension on reaching state pension age providing they make a claim and satisfy the following contribution conditions:They must have paid 50 qualifying contributions before 6 April 1975 or enough contributions in any one tax year after April 1975 for that year to be a qualifying year. Enough contributions must be paid or credited to give qualifying years for about 90 per cent. of their working life.
  To qualify for any basic pension at all a person must have enough qualifying years to receive a pension of at least 25 per cent. of the full rate.

  People can qualify for additional pension through the state second pension payable at state pension age if they are:
  Employees without contracted-out pension arrangement earning between the national insurance lower and upper earnings levels, or

  Percentage distribution of income for individuals living in pensioners couples by age—excluding the self-employed

  Percentage of pensioners

  Net equivalised disposable household income

  Bottom quintile

  Second quintile

  Third quintile

  Fourth quintile

  Top quintile

  Total

  Before housing costs Pensioner couples

  1991–92

  28

  28

  21

  13

  11

  5.1

  1992–93

  25

  29

  21

  14

  11

  5.2

  1993–94

  24

  31

  21

  12

  12

  5.2

  1994–95

  24

  29

  21

  15

  11

  5.1

  1995–96

  27

  26

  21

  15

  11

  5.1

  1996–97

  23

  29

  21

  15

  12

  5.1

  1997–98

  24

  28

  22

  14

  12

  5.2

  1998–99

  27

  26

  20

  15

  12

  5.2

  1999–2000

  24

  29

  21

  14

  11

  5.2

  2000–01

  26

  27

  21

  14

  12

  5.2

  of which: Head aged 70 and under

  1991–92

  21

  26

  24

  17

  12

  2.4

  1992–93

  20

  27

  23

  16

  14

  2.4

  1993–94

  18

  31

  23

  13

  15

  2.3

  1994–95

  18

  28

  23

  18

  14

  2.1

  1995–96

  21

  24

  24

  17

  14

  2.2

  1996–97

  16

  27

  23

  19

  16

  2.2

  1997–98

  18

  26

  23

  18

  15

  2.3

  1998–99

  20

  25

  22

  18

  15

  2.3

  1999–2000

  17

  27

  23

  18

  15

  2.3

  2000–01

  19

  26

  23

  17

  15

  2.2

  Head aged 71 to 75

  1991–92

  31

  28

  21

  10

  11

  1.3

  1992–93

  26

  27

  21

  15

  11

  1.4

  1993–94

  27

  31

  19

  13

  11

  1.5

  1994–95

  26

  30

  20

  14

  9

  1.6

  1995–96

  28

  30

  19

  13

  10

  1.6

  1996–97

  25

  29

  21

  13

  13

  1.5

  1997–98

  28

  31

  19

  11

  11

  1.4

  1998–99

  28

  28

  20

  14

  10

  1.5

  1999–2000

  26

  32

  20

  12

  10

  1.5

  2000–01

  28

  27

  22

  14

  9

  1.4

  Head aged 76 to 80

  1991–92

  37

  25

  19

  9

  9

  0.9

  1992–93

  35

  31

  20

  7

  7

  0.9

  970W
  Employees who have contracted-out pension arrangements who earn between the national insurance lower earnings level and £24,600 (in 2002–03 terms) or
  Carers who either qualify for Home Responsibilities Protection (HRP) where they are caring for an ill or disabled person or a child under age six; or are entitled to invalid care allowance throughout a qualifying year or
  People who, throughout a qualifying year, are entitled to incapacity benefit at the long term rate or; receive severe disablement allowance, and who at state pension age, have worked and paid or are treated as having paid class 1 national insurance contributions for 10 per cent. of their working life.

  Mr. Frank Field
  To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what percentage of pensioner couples where the age of the head of the household was(a) 70 and under, (b) 71 to 75, (c) 76 to 80 and (d) over 80 years had an income in (i) the bottom income quintile, (ii) the second bottom income quintile, (iii) the middle income quintile, (iv) the second top income quintile and (v) the top income quintile, in each of the past 10 years. [53811]

  Mr. McCartney
  The information is not available in the format requested. Such information as is available is in the tables.
  971W

  Percentage distribution of income for individuals living in pensioners couples by age—excluding the self-employed

  Percentage of pensioners

  Net equivalised disposable household income

  Bottom quintile

  Second quintile

  Third quintile

  Fourth quintile

  Top quintile

  Total

  1993–94

  30

  31

  21

  9

  9

  0.9

  1994–95

  32

  26

  21

  11

  9

  0.8

  1995–96

  38

  23

  18

  12

  8

  0.8

  1996–97

  30

  31

  21

  13

  6

  0.9

  1997–98

  31

  28

  21

  12

  7

  0.9

  1998–99

  36

  28

  16

  13

  8

  0.9

  1999–2000

  32

  29

  20

  12

  7

  1.0

  2000–01

  33

  27

  19

  12

  9

  1.0

  Head aged over 80

  1991–92

  32

  42

  11

  8

  7

  0.5

  1992–93

  27

  39

  17

  10

  7

  0.5

  1993–94

  35

  27

  19

  9

  10

  0.5

  1994–95

  32

  31

  20

  10

  7

  0.6

  1995–96

  36

  25

  20

  10

  8

  0.6

  1996–97

  31

  33

  17

  10

  9

  0.6

  1997–98

  28

  30

  22

  12

  8

  0.6

  1998–99

  37

  27

  12

  14

  9

  0.5

  1999–2000

  39

  26

  22

  7

  6

  0.5

  2000–01

  34

  30

  16

  9

  10

  0.6

  Net equivalised disposable household income

  Bottom quintile

  Second quintile

  Third quintile

  Fourth quintile

  Top quintile

  Total

  After housing costs Pensioner couples

  1991–92

  23

  28

  20

  15

  14

  5.1

  1992–93

  20

  28

  22

  16

  14

  5.2

  1993–94

  20

  30

  22

  14

  15

  5.2

  1994–95

  19

  28

  23

  16

  13

  5.1

  1995–96

  19

  29

  22

  16

  14

  5.1

  1996–97

  16

  30

  22

  17

  14

  5.1

  1997–98

  18

  29

  23

  17

  13

  5.2

  1998–99

  18

  29

  22

  16

  15

  5.2

  1999–2000

  18

  29

  23

  16

  13

  5.2

  2000–01

  19

  27

  22

  17

  15

  5.2

  of which: Head aged 70 and under

  1991–92

  16

  25

  23

  20

  16

  2.4

  1992–93

  14

  27

  24

  18

  16

  2.4

  1993–94

  14

  30

  23

  15

  17

  2.3

  1994–95

  14

  25

  26

  19

  16

  2.1

  1995–96

  14

  25

  25

  19

  17

  2.2

  1996–97

  12

  26

  24

  21

  17

  2.2

  1997–98

  12

  25

  24

  21

  17

  2.3

  1998–99

  14

  24

  24

  19

  19

  2.3

  1999–2000

  13

  25

  23

  21

  18

  2.3

  2000–01

  14

  24

  24

  21

  18

  2.2

  Head aged 71 to 75

  1991–92

  26

  28

  20

  12

  14

  1.3

  1992–93

  22

  26

  21

  16

  14

  1.4

  1993–94

  22

  31

  19

  15

  13

  1.5

  1994–95

  20

  29

  23

  16

  11

  1.6

  1995–96

  19

  32

  22

  15

  12

  1.6

  1996–97

  18

  31

  22

  14

  14

  1.5

  1997–98

  20

  34

  22

  13

  12

  1.4

  1998–99

  18

  31

  23

  15

  12

  1.5

  1999–2000

  18

  32

  24

  14

  11

  1.5

  2000–01

  21

  28

  24

  15

  13

  1.4

  Head aged 76 to 80

  1991–92

  29

  29

  20

  10

  11

  0.9

  1992–93

  31

  30

  21

  11

  8

  0.9

  1993–94

  26

  29

  23

  11

  11

  0.9

  972W 973W

  Net equivalised disposable household income

  Bottom quintile

  Second quintile

  Third quintile

  Fourth quintile

  Top quintile

  Total

  1994–95

  27

  29

  20

  12

  12

  0.8

  1995–96

  26

  31

  18

  13

  11

  0.8

  1996–97

  21

  35

  21

  15

  7

  0.9

  1997–98

  26

  28

  22

  15

  9

  0.9

  1998–99

  24

  34

  18

  13

  10

  0.9

  1999–2000

  20

  36

  21

  13

  10

  1.0

  2000–01

  24

  29

  21

  13

  13

  1.0

  Head aged over 80

  1991–92

  38

  38

  9

  9

  8

  0.5

  1992–93

  28

  35

  16

  13

  9

  0.5

  1993–94

  27

  31

  21

  9

  12

  0.5

  1994–95

  26

  33

  21

  12

  8

  0.6

  1995–96

  29

  30

  20

  12

  10

  0.6

  1996–97

  26

  36

  17

  12

  10

  0.6

  1997–98

  24

  32

  20

  15

  8

  0.6

  1998–99

  28

  32

  14

  13

  13

  0.5

  1999–2000

  32

  31

  22

  10

  6

  0.5

  2000–01

  27

  35

  16

  11

  11

  0.6

  Notes:

  1. All figures are estimates and are taken from the Households Below Average Income (HBAI) series. From 1991–92 to 1993–94 data are derived from the Family Expenditure Survey (two calendar years combined for 1991–92 and 1992–93 and two financial years combined for 1993–94) and relates to the UK. From 1994–95 to 2000–01, data are derived from the Family Resources Survey and represents single financial years. The Family Resources Survey does not include Northern Ireland, and the latest year for which data are available is 2000–01.

  2. The estimates are sample counts, which have been adjusted for non-response using multipurpose grossing factors. Estimates are subject to both sampling error and to variability in non-response. The income measures used is weekly net (disposable) equivalised household income (that is to say income that is adjusted to reflect the composition of the household).

  3. The estimates are presented on both a Before Housing Costs (BHC) and an After Housing Costs (AHC) basis in line with HBAI conventions. Figures are provided excluding the self-employed, as research suggests that, for self-employed people, income as reported in surveys is often a poor indicator of living standards. HBAI convention is to present results excluding the self-employed, presenting results including the self-employed where the two differ significantly.

  Mr. Frank Field
  To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what proportion of single female pensioners aged(a) 70 and under, (b) 71 to 75, (c) 76 to 80 and (d) over 80 years had an income below 60 per cent. of the median income in each of the last 10 years. [53813]

  Mr. McCartney
  The information is not available in the format requested. Such information as is available is provided in the table.

  Proportion of single female pensioners below 60 per cent. Of median income

  Percentage of pensioners

  Income threshold: 60 per cent. of median

  Before housing costs

  After housing costs

  Including the self-employed

  1991–92

  31

  42

  1992–93

  26

  36

  1993–94

  25

  34

  1994–95

  25

  33

  1995–96

  24

  29

  1996–97

  25

  35

  1997–98

  25

  34

  1998–99

  24

  34

  1999–2000

  24

  32

  2000–01

  23

  30

  Excluding the self-employed

  1991–92

  29

  42

  1992–93

  26

  36

  1993–94

  24

  33

  1994–95

  24

  31

  1995–96

  23

  28

  1996–97

  24

  33

  1997–98

  24

  33

  974W

  Proportion of single female pensioners below 60 per cent. Of median income

  Percentage of pensioners

  Income threshold: 60 per cent. of median

  Before housing costs

  After housing costs

  1998–99

  23

  32

  1999–2000

  24

  31

  2000–01

  23

  29

  Notes:

  1. All figures are estimates and are taken from the Households Below Average Income (HBAI) series. From 1991–92 to 1993–94 data are derived from the Family Expenditure Survey (two calendar years combined for 1991–92 and 1992–93 and two financial years combined for 1993–94). From 1994–95 to 2000–01, data are derived from the Family Resources Survey and represents single financial years. The Family Resources Survey does not include Northern Ireland, and the latest year for which data are available is 2000–01.

  2. The estimates are sample counts, which have been adjusted for non-response using multipurpose grossing factors that control for tenure, council tax band and a number of other variables. Estimates are subject to both sampling error and to variability in non-response. The income measure used is weekly net (disposable) equivalised household income (that is to say income that is adjusted to reflect the composition of the household).

  3. The estimates are presented on both a Before Housing Costs (BHC) and an After Housing Costs (AHC) basis in line with HBAI conventions. Figures are provided excluding the self-employed, as research suggests that, for self-employed people, income as reported

  975W
  in surveys is often a poor indicator of living standards. HBAI convention is to present results excluding the self-employed, presenting results including the self-employed where the two differ.

  Mr. Frank Field
  To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what percentage of single male pensioners aged(a) 70 and under, (b) 71 to 75, (c) 76 to 80 and (d) over 80 years had an income in (i) the bottom

  Percentage distribution of income for single male pensioners, excluding the self-employed

  Net equivalised disposable household income

  Bottom quintile

  Second quintile

  Third quintile

  Fourth quintile

  Top quintile

  Total

  Before housing costs

  1991–92

  21

  39

  16

  11

  13

  0.9

  1992–93

  19

  40

  16

  12

  13

  0.9

  1993–94

  21

  37

  18

  12

  12

  0.9

  1994–95

  21

  34

  23

  12

  10

  0.9

  1995–96

  21

  35

  23

  13

  9

  0.9

  1996–97

  19

  31

  25

  15

  10

  0.9

  1997–98

  21

  36

  19

  15

  8

  0.9

  1998–99

  21

  35

  21

  13

  9

  0.9

  1999–2000

  21

  33

  21

  15

  11

  1.0

  2000–01

  20

  33

  21

  15

  10

  1.0

  After housing costs

  1991–92

  18

  36

  16

  14

  16

  0.9

  1992–93

  16

  40

  15

  13

  17

  0.9

  1993–94

  15

  39

  17

  13

  16

  0.9

  1994–95

  16

  36

  19

  14

  15

  0.9

  1995–96

  14

  39

  20

  15

  13

  0.9

  1996–97

  14

  34

  21

  18

  14

  0.9

  1997–98

  17

  36

  19

  15

  12

  0.9

  1998–99

  19

  33

  20

  16

  12

  0.9

  1999–2000

  16

  35

  19

  15

  15

  1.0

  2000–01

  17

  32

  20

  16

  15

  1.0

  Notes:

  1. All figures are estimates and are taken from the Households Below Average Income (HBAI) series. From 1991–92 to 1993–94 data are derived from the Family Expenditure Survey (two calendar years combined for 1991–92 to 1992–03 and two financial years combined for 1993–94) and relates to the UK. From the 1994–95 to 2000–01, data are derived from the Family Resources Survey and represents single financial years. The Family Resources Survey does not include Northern Ireland, and the latest year for which data are available is 2000–01.

  2. The estimates are sample counts, which have been adjusted for non-response using multipurpose grossing factors. Estimates are subject to both sampling error and to variability in non-response. The income measure used is weekly net (disposable) equivalised household income (that is to say income that is adjusted to reflect the composition of the household).

  3. The estimates are presented on both a Before Housing Costs (BHC) and After Housing Costs (AHC) basis in line with HBAI conventions. Figures are provided excluding the self-employed, as research suggests that, for self-employed people, income as reported in surveys is often a poor indicator of living standards. HBAI convention is to present results excluding the self-employed, presenting results including the self-employed where the two differ significantly.

  4. As a result of the small sample sizes associated with breaking down male pensioners according to age, only the overall distribution has been presented above. While sample sizes are adequate for point-in-time estimates, it is unlikely that a time series would have any validity as a guide to changes over time. The information for 200–01 can be found in the publication 'Households Below Average Income 1994–95 to 2000–01', a copy of which can be found in the House of Commons Library.

  Mr. Frank Field
  To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what proportion of pensioner couples had an income below 60 per cent. of the median income in each of the last 10 years where the head of the family was aged(a) 70 and under, (b) 71 to 75, (c) 76 to 80 and (d) over 80 years. [53804]

  Mr. McCartney
  The information is not available in the format requested. Such information as is available is provided in the tables.
  976W
  income quintile, (ii) the second bottom income quintile, (iii) the middle income quintile, (iv) the second top income quintile and (v) the top income quintile, in each of the past 10 years. [53810]

  Mr. McCartney
  The information is not available in the format requested. Such information as is available is in the table.

  Proportion of individuals in pensioner couples below 60 per cent. of median income, including the self-employed

  Percentage of pensioners

  Income threshold: 60 per cent. of median

  Before housing costs

  After housing costs

  1991–92

  29

  27

  1992–93

  24

  25

  1993–94

  22

  25

  1994–95

  19

  23

  1995–96

  21

  23

  977W

  Proportion of individuals in pensioner couples below 60 per cent. of median income, including the self-employed

  Percentage of pensioners

  Income threshold: 60 per cent. of median

  Before housing costs

  After housing costs

  1996–97

  20

  22

  1997–98

  21

  23

  1998–99

  23

  22

  1999–2000

  21

  22

  2000–01

  22

  22

  Proportion of individuals in pensioner couples below 60 per cent. of median income, including the self-employed

  Percentage of pensioners

  Income threshold: 60 per cent. of median

  Before housing costs

  After housing costs

  1991–92

  28

  27

  1992–93

  24

  25

  1993–94

  21

  24

  1994–95

  18

  22

  1995–96

  21

  23

  1996–97

  19

  22

  1997–98

  20

  23

  1998–99

  22

  22

  1999–2000

  20

  22

  2000–01

  21

  21

  Percentage distribution of income for single female pensioners by age, excluding the self-employed

  Net equivalised disposable household income

  Before housing costs:

  Bottom quintile

  Second quintile

  Third quintile

  Fourth quintile

  Top quintile

  Total

  single female pensioners

  1991–92

  29

  38

  16

  9

  8

  3.5

  1992–93

  27

  40

  16

  10

  7

  3.4

  1993–94

  27

  37

  17

  12

  7

  3.4

  1994–95

  29

  35

  18

  12

  6

  3.3

  1995–96

  28

  34

  19

  14

  6

  3.2

  1996–97

  27

  34

  20

  12

  7

  3.2

  1997–98

  27

  33

  20

  13

  7

  3.2

  1998–99

  27

  33

  21

  13

  6

  3.2

  1999–2000

  27

  31

  21

  14

  7

  3.1

  2000–01

  27

  33

  20

  13

  6

  3.1

  of which: aged 70 and under

  1991–92

  24

  36

  18

  11

  11

  1.2

  1992–93

  22

  37

  19

  11

  10

  1.1

  1993–94

  21

  38

  18

  12

  11

  1.1

  1994–95

  23

  35

  19

  13

  10

  1.1

  1995–96

  23

  35

  19

  15

  8

  1.0

  1996–97

  22

  34

  22

  13

  8

  1.0

  1997–98

  20

  33

  22

  16

  9

  1.0

  1998–99

  22

  33

  22

  14

  9

  1.0

  1999–2000

  21

  33

  22

  14

  10

  1.0

  2000–01

  24

  33

  21

  14

  9

  1.0

  aged 71 to 75

  1991–92

  35

  34

  13

  11

  7

  0.7

  1992–93

  31

  39

  15

  10

  6

  0.8

  1993–94

  33

  36

  14

  12

  5

  0.7

  1994–95

  28

  36

  19

  11

  6

  0.7

  1995–96

  27

  34

  20

  14

  5

  0.8

  1996–97

  28

  36

  18

  12

  6

  0.7

  1997–98

  29

  35

  19

  11

  6

  0.6

  1998–99

  31

  35

  19

  11

  4

  0.7

  1999–2000

  31

  31

  20

  13

  4

  0.6

  2000–01

  25

  35

  21

  13

  6

  0.6

  978W
  Notes:

  1. All figures are estimates and are taken from the Households Below Average Income (HBA1) series. From 1991–92 to 1993–94 data are derived from the Family Expenditure Survey (two calendar years combined for 1991–92 and 1992–93 and two financial years combined for 1993–94). From 1994–95 to 2000–01, data are derived from the Family Resources Survey and represents single financial years. The Family Resources Survey does not include Northern Ireland, and the latest year for which data are available is 2000–01.

  2. The estimates are sample counts, which have been adjusted for non-response using multi-purpose grossing factors. Estimates are subject to both sampling error and to variability in non-response. The income measure used is weekly net (disposable) equivalised household income (that is to say income that is adjusted to reflect the composition of the household).

  3. The estimates are presented on both a Before Housing Costs (BHC) and an After Housing Costs (AHC) basis in line with HBAI conventions. Figures are provided excluding the self-employed, as research suggests that, for self-employed people, income as reported in surveys is often a poor indicator of living standards. HBAI convention is to present results excluding the self-employed, presenting results including the self-employed where the two differ.

  Mr. Frank Field
  To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what percentage of single female pensioners aged(a) 70 and under, (b) 71 to 75, (c) 76 to 80 and (d) over 80 years had an income in (i) the bottom income quintile, (ii) the second bottom income quintile, (iii) the middle income quintile, (iv) the second top income quintile and (v) the top income quintile, in each of the past 10 years. [53809]

  Mr. McCartney
  The information is in the tables.
  979W

  Percentage distribution of income for single female pensioners by age, excluding the self-employed

  Net equivalised disposable household income

  Before housing costs:

  Bottom quintile

  Second quintile

  Third quintile

  Fourth quintile

  Top quintile

  Total

  aged 76 to 80

  1991–92

  30

  42

  13

  8

  6

  0.8

  1992–93

  31

  41

  13

  10

  6

  0.8

  1993–94

  32

  40

  16

  9

  4

  0.7

  1994–95

  33

  37

  16

  11

  3

  0.6

  1995–96

  34

  34

  17

  11

  4

  0.6

  1996–97

  30

  35

  19

  9

  6

  0.6

  1997–98

  31

  32

  21

  10

  6

  0.7

  1998–99

  28

  36

  19

  13

  5

  0.7

  1999–2000

  30

  34

  19

  12

  4

  0.7

  2000–01

  29

  34

  19

  14

  4

  0.7

  aged over 80

  1991–92

  31

  39

  16

  6

  8

  0.8

  1992–93

  28

  42

  17

  8

  5

  0.8

  1993–94

  28

  36

  18

  12

  5

  0.9

  1994–95

  33

  32

  18

  12

  5

  0.9

  1995–96

  30

  32

  19

  14

  5

  0.9

  1996–97

  29

  32

  21

  13

  5

  0.8

  1997–98

  30

  31

  20

  13

  5

  0.9

  1998–99

  29

  31

  21

  15

  5

  0.8

  1999–2000

  28

  27

  23

  16

  6

  0.8

  2000–01

  30

  31

  20

  13

  6

  0.8

  Percentage distribution of income for single female pensioners by age, excluding the self-employed

  Net equivalised disposable household income

  After housing costs:

  Bottom quintile

  Second quintile

  Third quintile

  Fourth quintile

  Top quintile

  Total

  Single female pensioners

  1991–92

  27

  35

  15

  12

  11

  3.5

  1992–93

  22

  39

  17

  12

  10

  3.4

  1993–94

  22

  39

  17

  13

  10

  3.4

  1994–95

  23

  38

  16

  13

  9

  3.3

  1995–96

  20

  38

  18

  15

  9

  3.2

  1996–97

  18

  39

  19

  14

  9

  3.2

  1997–98

  22

  35

  19

  15

  9

  3.2

  1998–99

  23

  32

  21

  15

  9

  3.2

  1999–2000

  22

  32

  20

  16

  10

  3.1

  2000–01

  23

  31

  21

  15

  10

  3.1

  of which: aged 70 and under

  1991–92

  25

  29

  18

  13

  15

  1.2

  1992–93

  21

  34

  17

  13

  16

  1.1

  1993–94

  19

  34

  18

  13

  16

  1.1

  1994–95

  20

  34

  18

  15

  13

  1.1

  1995–96

  19

  36

  19

  14

  13

  1.0

  1996–97

  17

  35

  19

  16

  12

  1.0

  1997–98

  19

  30

  20

  18

  13

  1.0

  1998–99

  19

  29

  23

  15

  14

  1.0

  1999–2000

  20

  29

  21

  14

  16

  1.0

  2000–01

  22

  29

  20

  15

  13

  1.0

  aged 71 to 75

  1991–92

  30

  37

  11

  12

  11

  0.7

  1992–93

  26

  39

  14

  14

  7

  0.8

  1993–94

  29

  35

  15

  11

  10

  0.7

  1994–95

  24

  39

  16

  13

  8

  0.7

  1995–96

  19

  36

  21

  14

  9

  0.8

  1996–97

  19

  40

  19

  13

  9

  0.7

  1997–98

  24

  36

  17

  14

  8

  0.6

  1998–99

  29

  33

  17

  14

  6

  0.7

  1999–2000

  24

  33

  19

  16

  7

  0.6

  2000–01

  24

  26

  24

  16

  9

  0.6

  aged 76 to 80

  1991–92

  32

  37

  12

  12

  8

  0.8

  1992–93

  23

  43

  16

  9

  8

  0.8

  1993–94

  20

  45

  19

  10

  6

  0.7

  1994–95

  27

  42

  14

  12

  5

  0.6

  980W 981W

  Percentage distribution of income for single female pensioners by age, excluding the self-employed

  Net equivalised disposable household income

  After housing costs:

  Bottom quintile

  Second quintile

  Third quintile

  Fourth quintile

  Top quintile

  Total

  1995–96

  23

  42

  15

  13

  7

  0.6

  1996–97

  20

  42

  19

  12

  8

  0.6

  1997–98

  22

  38

  19

  13

  8

  0.7

  1998–99

  25

  33

  20

  16

  7

  0.7

  1999–2000

  24

  35

  20

  15

  7

  0.7

  2000–01

  21

  34

  22

  15

  8

  0.7

  aged over 80

  1991–92

  23

  40

  18

  10

  9

  0.8

  1992–93

  20

  43

  19

  10

  7

  0.8

  1993–94

  19

  43

  16

  15

  8

  0.9

  1994–95

  23

  40

  17

  13

  7

  0.9

  1995–96

  21

  37

  18

  17

  7

  0.9

  1996–97

  18

  41

  19

  16

  7

  0.8

  1997–98

  23

  37

  18

  15

  7

  0.9

  1998–99

  19

  36

  20

  17

  7

  0.8

  1999–2000

  20

  33

  20

  18

  8

  0.8

  2000–01

  24

  34

  20

  15

  8

  0.8

  Notes:

  1. All figures are estimates and are taken from the Households Below Average Income (HBAI) series. From 1991–92 to 1993–94 data are derived from the Family Expenditure Survey (two calendar years combined for 1991–92 and 1992–93 and two financial years combined for 1993–94) and relates to the UK. From 1994–95 to 2000–01, data are derived from the Family Resources Survey and represents single financial years. The Family Resources Survey does not include Northern Ireland, and the latest year for which data are available is 2000–01.

  2. The estimates are sample counts, which have been adjusted for non-response using multi-purpose grossing factors. Estimates are subject to both sampling error and to variability in non-response. The income measure used is weekly net (disposable) equivalised household income (that is to say income that is adjusted to reflect the composition of the household).

  3. The estimates are presented on both a Before Housing Costs (BHC) and an After Housing Costs (AHC) basis in line with HBAI conventions. Figures are provided excluding the self-employed, as research suggests that, for self-employed people, income as reported in surveys is often a poor indicator of living standards. HBAI convention is to present results excluding the self-employed, presenting results including the self-employed where the two differ significantly.

  Mr. Frank Field
  To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what proportion of pensioner households had an income below 60 per cent. of the median income in each of the last 10 years. [53812]

  Mr. McCartney
  Such information as is available can be found in the publication "Households Below Average Income 1994–95 to 2000–01" a copy of which is held in the Library.

  Social Fund
  Mr. David Marshall
  To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions when the Social Fund limits were last increased; and if he will make a statement as to when he next expects them to be increased. [54068]

  Malcolm Wicks
  The gross national budget for social fund loans and grants is decided in time for allocations to be made to each district from 1 April each year. The setting and allocation of the 2002–03 budget has already taken place. At £627 million, the April 2002 budget represents an increase of £6.4 million over the budget set in April 2001. The size of the gross national budget will he reviewed against next year.

  Staff Numbers
  Mr. Bercow
  To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many staff have been employed by his Department in each of the last 10 years. [42462]

  Mr. McCartney
  The Department for Work and Pensions was formed in June 2001 and figures have been supplied from employment services and DSS legacy systems. Information for earlier years is not available and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.
  982W

  Date

  Staff employed

  31 December 1998

  139,820

  31 December 1999

  131,539

  31 December 2000

  130,799

  31 December 2001

  134,489

  Solar Panels
  Ian Lucas
  To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what buildings owned by his Department have solar panels installed. [53495]

  Malcolm Wicks
  Five of the buildings we occupy under the terms of the PRIME PFI agreement do have solar panels installed. These buildings are all located in the west country:

  Bournemouth—Cotlands road

  Truro

  Plymouth—Durley

  Exeter—Clarendon

  Penzance—Branwell.

  Royal Mail Benefit Scheme
  Mr. Frank Field
  To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many local authorities are operating the Royal Mail "Do Not Redirect" benefit mail scheme. [53808]

  Malcolm Wicks
  367 of the 408 local authorities administering housing benefit, representing 90 per cent. of the total, use the official "Do Not Redirect" scheme, stopping housing benefit fraudsters claiming from a false address. Some authorities have established similar
  983W
  schemes locally with Royal Mail. We are keen to see all authorities using "Do Not Redirect" and will continue to encourage the remaining authorities to do so.

  Family Allowances
  Mr. Watts
  To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if he will disregard family allowances in benefit calculations. [51290]

  Malcolm Wicks
  There are no plans to disregard child benefit in the calculation of entitlement to income related benefits. Although the Government have not changed the way that entitlement to income support and income based jobseeker's allowance is calculated, low income families have gained substantially from increases in the allowances for children in these benefits. For example, a couple on income support with two children under the age of 11 is £2,000 a year better off in real terms than they would have been in 1997.

  Further, as my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced recently, we plan to increase the child allowances in the income related benefits by a further £3.50 per week from October 2002.

  In the longer term, the new child tax credit, to be introduced from April 2003 will build on the foundations of the universal child benefit to provide a seamless system of support for low income families. It will replace the children's allowances in income support and income based jobseeker's allowance and these benefits will no longer be affected by payments of child benefit. The child tax credit will, alongside child benefit, provide child support of £54.25 a week for the first child in families with an income of less than £13,000 a year.

  Incapacity Benefit
  Mr. Chope
  To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what proportion of claims for incapacity benefit were unsuccessful in each of the last three years for which figures are available. [40784]

  Mr. Nicholas Brown
  The information is in the table.

  Proportion of unsuccessful incapacity benefit (IB) claims

  Percentage of unsuccessful IB claims as a proportion of claims received

  1 April 1999 to 31 March 20001

  51

  1 April 2000 to 31 March 2001

  51

  1 April 2001 to 31 March 2002

  52

  1 The underlying data for the period 1 April 1999 to 31 May 1999 only include claims that were unsuccessful because they failed the contribution test. The underlying data from 1 June 1999 onwards include claims that were unsuccessful because they failed the contribution test or were withdrawn, and claims where no medical evidence was received or where the person claimed while living abroad in a country which does not have a reciprocal social security agreement.

  Notes:

  1. People whose IB claims are unsuccessful can go on the receive national insurance credits only.

  2. The number of unsuccessful IB claims may refer to a slightly different time period to the number of claims received.

  Source:

  The underlying data are taken from 100 per cent. counts supplied by the Department's Central Data Unit.
  984W
  Miss McIntosh
  To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many people claimed incapacity benefit in the York and North Yorkshire area in(a) 1997, (b) 1999, (c) 2000 and (d) 2001. [28197]

  Mr. Nicholas Brown
  [pursuant to his reply, 6 March 2002, c. 411W]: The available information is in the table.

  Number of people claiming incapacity benefit (IB) in the City of York and North Yorkshire local authority areas

  York

  North Yorkshire1

  31 August 1997

  4,700

  14,300

  31 August 1999

  4,500

  14,000

  31 August 2000

  4,800

  13,900

  31 August 2001

  4,900

  14,600

  1 North Yorkshire includes Craven, Hambleton, Harrogate, Richmondshire, Ryedale, Scarborough and Selby.

  Note:

  Figures are rounded to the nearest hundred.

  Source:

  Figures are taken from a 5 per cent. sample of the incapacity benefit computer system and exclude a small number of cases held clerically.

  Information and Communication Sector (Vacancies)
  Paul Holmes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what information he has concerning the total number of vacancies which arise annually for higher level skilled employees in the information and communications technology sector; what estimate he has made of the number of those positions which are filled by overseas applicants; and what plans he has to address these issues. [45380]

  Mr. Nicholas Brown
  Comprehensive data on national notified vacancies and the number of these vacancies filled by overseas applicants are not centrally available.

  New Deal for Young People
  Mr. Sheerman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions by what means Employment Services assess the costs required to provide different kinds of training in allocating funds to new deal for young people training providers. [49957]

  Mr. Nicholas Brown
  The national funding rates for new deal for young people training provision are based on they type, length and occupational area covered by that provision. The rates are banded by occupational area to allow for higher payments for more expensive training. The amounts paid are based on historical data and the rates are broadly consistent with those of the Learning and Skills Council.

  Training Providers
  Mr. Sheerman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of the effect of the implementation of formula funding on the general level of funds available to training providers. [49958]

  Mr. Nicholas Brown
  The introduction of formula funding for new deal provision has not created an additional restriction on the overall level of funds available to individual training providers. Subject to their satisfactory performance, the majority of providers will receive levels of income similar to those they received
  985W
  previously. However, successful providers can enhance their earning considerably by increasing the number of clients they help into sustained employment.

  Andrew Palmer
  Andrew Mackinlay
  To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (1) when the Chief Executive of the Child Support Agency will send a substantive reply to the letter of 29 January from my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay) concerning his constituent, Andrew Palmer of East Tilbury; [37432]

  (2) when and in what terms the Child Support Agency apologised to Andrew Palmer of East Tilbury; and if he will make a statement. [37436]

  Malcolm Wicks
  The administration of the child Support Agency is a mater for the Chief Executive, Mr. Doug Smith. He will write to the hon. Member.

  Letter from Doug Smith to Andrew Mackinlay, dated 1 May 2002:
  The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions in replying to your Parliamentary Question about the Child Support Agency promised a substantive reply by me to the operational aspects. I'm sorry about the long delay in providing this.
  You ask two questions, firstly, when and in what terms the Child Support Agency apologised to Andrew Palmer of East Tilbury and if the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions will make a statement. Secondly, when I will send a substantive reply to your letter of the 29th January concerning your constituent Andrew Palmer.
  I replied to your letter on 6th March 2002 and on the same day wrote in similar terms to Mr Palmer, my letter to you included the words;
  "I apologise for the Agency's incorrect approach to your constituent, which I have now established arose as a result of an error many years ago in allocating your constituents National Insurance number to another person."

  Child Support
  Mr. Kirkwood
  To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if he will place in the Library a copy of(a) each of the CSA's monthly Business Information Bulletins since April 2001, (b) the CSA Board's quarterly review of its progress, (c) the CSA's Risk Management Framework and Report on Risk Management for and (d) the CSA's Latest Controls report from December 2001. [32548]

  Malcolm Wicks
  The administration of the Child Support Agency is a matter for the chief executive, Mr. Doug Smith. He will write to the hon. Member.

  Letter from Doug Smith to Mr. Kirkwood, dated 1 May 2002:
  The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions in replying to your Parliamentary Question about the Child Support Agency promised a substantive reply by me. I'm sorry about the long delay in providing this.
  You have asked for a copy of each of the following to be place in the library:

  (a) each of the CSA's monthly Business Information Bulletins since April 2001,

  (b) the CSA board's quarterly review of its progress,

  (c) the CSA's risk management framework and reports on risk management,

  (d) the CSA's latest control report from December 2001.

  986W
  I am anxious to place as much material as possible in the public domain and thereby open ourselves to public scrutiny. However I also need to balance this against the harm that release of the information could have in two areas:
  — First, where the code of practice on access to government information exempts from disclosure "information whose disclosure would harm the frankness and candour of internal discussion, including: internal opinion, advice, recommendation, consultation and deliberation; projections and assumptions relating to internal policy analysis; analysis of alternative policy options and information relating to rejected policy options".
  — Secondly, in the area of "effective management and operations of the public service" where the relevant code exemption can embrace information "relating to the conduct of tests, examinations or audits conducted by a Department where disclosure of the methods used might prejudice the effectiveness of the tests or the attainments of their objectives".
  I have carefully considered the four documents (or sets of documents) against those criteria. I do not believe that within that guidance it would be appropriate to release

  (a) The CSA's monthly Business Information Bulletins. These are internally produced documents flagging month by month updates focused on issues and risks. They are written openly and frankly and it's effectiveness would be significantly constrained if the authors were aware that it would be publicly disclosed. This appears to fall within the first area described above.

  (b) The quarterly review of progress. This is a standing agenda item for the Board and is not, as such a document. There are a number of documents commenting on different areas but my ability to release those documents is constrained by the factors mentioned in my previous paragraph. This also appears to fall within the first area described above.

  (c) I am content to place the CSA's risk management framework within the library. I do not believe that the report on risk management, which review our internal controls, should be released. This appears to fall within the second area described above.

  (d) I do not believe the CSA's latest controls report which by definition review our internal controls should be released. This also appears to fall within the second area described above.

  If you are not satisfied with my reasons for not giving you the rest of the information, please tell me why. If you are still not satisfied after we have looked at your request again, you can approach the Ombudsman, who will be able to see all the relevant papers and decide whether the decision is fair.
  I am sorry if this reply appears negative. I would be happy to meet with you and colleagues on DWP Select Committee to discuss how I might provide you with briefings covering the substance of these reports, perhaps informally on a regular basis.

  Mr. Andrew Turner
  To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many assessments have been made by the Child Support Agency within(a) one month, (b) two to six months, (c) seven to 12 months, (d) one to two years and (e) more than two years of application in each year since the Agency's creation. [51062]

  Malcolm Wicks
  [holding answer 18 April 2002]: The administration of the Child Support Agency is a matter for the Chief Executive, Mr. Doug Smith. He will write to the hon. Member.

  Letter from Doug Smith to Andrew Turner, dated 1 May 2002:
  The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions in replying to your recent Parliamentary Question about the Child Support Agency promised a substantive reply to me.
  You ask, how many assessments have been made by the Child Support Agency within (a) one month (b) two to six months (c) seven to 12 months (d) one to two years and (e) more than two years of application in each year since the Agency's creation.

  987W
  I am sorry but the information you have requested is only available from 1998. The figures in the table below are extrapolated from a sample of 5 per cent. of the live cases on our computer system. They are therefore subject to a small degree of sampling error. As a result, whilst the figures I am quoting are statistically valid, they will not match exactly previously published figures for assessments made in the years in question.

  Maintenance Assessments made

  Year to 31 March

  1999

  2000

  2001

  Under one month

  8,300

  4,000

  2,300

  Within two to six months

  77,600

  62,500

  41,800

  Within seven to twelve months

  39,800

  33,800

  25,300

  Within one to two years

  25,200

  17,200

  17,400

  Over two years

  48,700

  14,100

  12,000

  I do not yet have similar information available to 31 March 2002. I can tell you that for the period 1 April 2001–31 March 2002, 53,644 assessments were made within 20 weeks of receiving an application, 33,612 between 20 and 52 weeks and 19,209 over 52 weeks.

  I hope this is helpful.

  Mark Tami
  To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (1) what was the average number of employees working for the Child Support Agency in each of the last five years; [30264]

  (2) what the staff turnover was for each grade of employee working for the Child Support Agency in the last 12 months; [30265]

  (3) how many appeals were made to the Parliamentary Ombudsman regarding the Child Support Agency in the last 12 months. [30267]

  Malcolm Wicks
  The administration of the Child Support Agency is a matter for the chief executive, Mr. Doug Smith. He will write to the hon. Member.

  Letter from Doug Smith to Mark Tami, dated 1 May 2002:
  The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions in replying to your Parliamentary Question about the Child Support Agency promised a substantive reply by me. I'm sorry about the long delay in providing this.
  You ask three questions: one, what was the average number of employees working for the Child Support Agency in each of the last five years, two, what the staff turnover was for each grade of employee working for the Child Support Agency in the last 12 months and three, how many appeals were made to the Parliamentary Ombudsman regarding the Child Support Agency in the last 12 months.
  Table 1 on the attached annex shows the staff in post figures, which are based on an average of the year, commencing January to December. Figures shown are the amount of staff based on a headcount (which includes part time staff), also the number of whole time equivalent staff. The higher figure for 2001 reflect additional staff currently employed within the Child Support Reform Project. These figures do not include work undertaken for us in Belfast by Northern Ireland Child Support Agency staff.
  Table 2 on the attached annex is the number of staff who have left the Agency between January 2001 to December 2001. These figures include staff who have moved to another part of Government as well as those who have resigned from the public service.
  From 1st January 2001 to 31st December 2001 the Parliamentary Ombudsman received 136 requests for investigation regarding Child Support Agency cases.
  988W
  I hope this is helpful.

  Annex 1

  Table 1: The average number of staff in post for each of the last five years

  Year

  Whole-time equivalent

  Headcount

  2001

  9,486.78

  10,292

  2000

  8,720.75

  9,298

  1999

  8,442.03

  9,305

  1998

  8,271.08

  9,067

  1997

  8,502.02

  9,312

  Source:

  Corporate Services Division. Department of Work and Pensions

  Table 2: Staff turnover 1 January 2001 to 31 December 2001

  Total leavers

  Grade

  Staff transferring to other Government department or agency

  Staff leaving the civil service

  Total

  Administrative Assistant

  45

  365

  410

  Support Grade 1

  1

  10

  11

  Administrative Officer

  198

  768

  966

  Executive Officer

  141

  98

  239

  Higher Executive Officer

  55

  17

  72

  Senior Executive Officer

  16

  4

  20

  Grade 7

  4

  0

  4

  Grade 6

  0

  1

  1

  Total

  460

  1,263

  1,723

  Source:

  Corporate Services Division. Department of Work and Pensions

  Mr. Webb
  To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (1) how many non-resident parents the CSA calculates have(a) 0 per cent. maintenance liability and (b) a net income of less than £100 per week; [42802]

  (2) what the average percentage of net income paid in child support maintenance by the non-resident parent under the CSA system is for (a) one child, (b) two children and (c) three children; [42804]

  (3) what the (a) number and (b) percentage of those in receipt of CSA child support maintenance who are also in receipt of (i) income support and (ii) income-based jobseekers' allowance is. [42805]

  Malcolm Wicks
  [holding answer 12 March 2002]: The administration of the Child Support Agency is a matter for the Chief Executive, Mr. Doug Smith. He will write to the hon. Member.

  Letter from Doug Smith to Steve Webb, dated 1 May 2002:
  The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions in replying to your Parliamentary Question about the Child Support Agency promised a substantive reply by me. I'm sorry about the long delay in providing this.
  You ask three questions;
  What is the number and percentage of those in receipt of Child Support Agency maintenance who are also in receipt of (i) Income Support and (ii) Jobseekers Allowance (Income Based);
  How many non-resident parents the Child Support Agency currently calculates have (i) 0 per cent maintenance liability and (ii) a net income of less than £100 per week;
  What is the average percentage of net income paid in child support maintenance by the non-resident parent under the Child Support Agency system for (a) one child, (b) two children and (c) three children.

  989W
  The figures I have used in this reply have been taken from the Quarterly Summary of Child Support Agency statistics, a copy of which is placed in the House of Commons library the figures referred to below are all as at November 2001.
  There were 380,900 parents with care with full maintenance assessments in receipt of child support maintenance who are also in receipt of Income Support. (37.4% of the total number of parents with care), and 8,600 in receipt of Jobseekers Allowance (Income Based), (0.8% of the total number of parents with care).
  There were 497,400 non-resident parents with a nil maintenance assessment. At the same date there were 506,900 non-resident parents who had a net income for assessment purposes of less than £100 per week.
  The mean average percentage of net income (as currently defined) paid by a non-resident parent is 15% where one child is involved, 18% where two children are involved and 19% where three or more children are involved. This excludes cases where the net income for maintenance assessment purposes is nil.
  It should be noted that the definition of net income in the current scheme differs significantly from that in the new arrangements in the Child Support, Pensions and Social Security Act 2000.
  Under the new scheme we will take account of the earned income of the non-resident parent, including overtime, bonus and commission, together with tax credits and income from occupational pensions. Deductions for tax, national insurance and pension contributions will be made.
  Under the current scheme, we allow deductions for half of the pension contributions and we take account of other sources of income such as child benefit, contributory and non-contributory benefits, income from property or capital, housing benefit and council tax benefit.
  Not all of these other sources of income will be ignored entirely in the new scheme. A non-resident parent who, for example, receives Incapacity Benefit will be required to pay maintenance at a flat rate of £5 per week. And, where a non-resident parent has substantial property or capital assets, the parent with care may apply for a variation to the maintenance calculation.

  Vinyl Chloride Monomer
  Mr. Barnes
  To ask the Secretary for Work and Pensions when he is due to receive the report of the Industrial Injuries Advisory Council on whether vinyl chloride monomer should be added to the prescribed list for industrial injuries disablement benefit; and when it is proposed to publish(a) the report and (b) the response of the Minister. [33780]

  Mr. Nicholas Brown
  I refer my hon. Friend to the reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr. Lammy) on 14 February 2002,Official Report, column 635W.

HEALTH

  Child and Family Support Service
  Mr. Wray
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what funding has gone into the Child and Family Support Service since 1997. [45485]

  Jacqui Smith
  Between 1996–97 and 2002–03 resources for personal social services in England increased by over 20 per cent. in real terms. Councils determine what proportion of their overall resources, including this increase, is to be spent on children and family support services.
  990W
  Mr. Wray
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the Child and Family Support Service; and what plans he has to increase cooperation with local authorities and improve access to services. [45487]

  Jacqui Smith
  Local authorities provide a wide range of services to support children and their families. The Social Services Inspectorate systematically assesses the performance of all local councils with social services responsibilities, evaluating the quality of services experienced by users and carers and monitoring the implementation of Government policy for social services.

  In 1999 we published an overview report of the inspection programme of family support services in eight authorities. The report was entitled "Getting Family Support Right" and showed that 80 per cent. of families expressed satisfaction with the family support services they had received. At the same time we published a six-page pamphlet for front line staff called "Key messages for practitioners and first-line managers", which summarised the key findings of inspection assessments and disseminated examples of good practice.

  Multi-agency working is a key element of the Government's five year £885 million quality protects programme which is improving the management and delivery of children's social services. The Government have set national objectives to improve outcomes for children and young people in need and local authorities are expected to show steady improvement towards the achievement of these in their annual quality protects management action plans.

  The three cross Government programmes to tackle the social exclusion of children: Sure Start; The Children's Fund; and Connexions; all involve co-operation and multi-agency partnership working by a range of statutory and voluntary sector agencies, to ensure that children and family support services are accessible and effective.

  Mount Vernon Hospital
  Mr. Gareth R. Thomas
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health which NHS agencies(a) own the Mount Vernon hospital estate and (b) are responsible for services provided there; and if he will list the chief executive and board members of each of these agencies. [48899]

  Mr. Hutton
  The Mount Vernon hospital estate is held by Hillingdon NHS Trust on behalf of the Secretary of State for Health.

  Services at Mount Vernon hospital are provided by Hillingdon NHS Trust and West Hertfordshire hospitals NHS Trust.
  991W
  The board members of West Hertfordshire hospitals NHS Trust are:

  Rosie Sanderson Chairwoman

  Val Harrison Chief Executive

  Ritu Chabra Non-Executive Director

  Robin Douglas Non-Executive Director

  Neil Marshall Non-Executive Director

  Said Namdarkhan Non-Executive Director

  Barbara Saunders Non-Executive Director

  Howard Borkett-Jones Medical Director

  Ken Sharp Acting Director of Finance

  Clare Mooney Acting Director of Human Resources

  Gillian Hooper Director of Nursing

  David Law Director of Strategic Planning

  Nigel Coomber Director of Operations

  Ann Donkin Director of Modernisation and Performance (from May 2002).

  The board members of Hillingdon NHS Trust are:

  Steve Coventry Chairman

  David McVittie Chief Executive

  Ann Chapman Non-Executive Director

  Tony Valentine Non-Executive Director

  Obaid Siddiqui Non-Executive Director

  Christine Beatty Non-Executive Director

  Linda Warren Non-Executive Director

  Clare Panniker Director of Operations

  Paul Wratten Director of Finance

  Corinne Hall Director of Nursing

  Stephen Meechan Director of Information and Commissioning

  Diana Rimmer Medical Director.

  Mr. Gareth R. Thomas
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what plans he has to sell off part of the Mount Vernon estate. [48909]

  Mr. Hutton
  There are currently no plans to dispose of the Mount Vernon hospital estate.

  Obesity
  Mr. Gale
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what guidance his Department gives to directors of public health and general practitioners about the appropriate use of(a) traditional diets, (b) exercise, (c) formula slimming foods, (d) surgery and (e) slimming drugs, as part of the strategic response to the problem of overweight and obesity. [49315]

  Yvette Cooper
  [holding answer 18 April 2002]: The balance of good health food model, which is based on current Government guidelines for healthy eating, has been widely disseminated.

  The national quality assurance framework for exercise referral systems was published in April 2001. General practitioners were notified of the guidelines through the GP bulletin, which is sent to all GPs in England. The document offers guidance to primary care and fitness professionals, who work together to offer tailored exercise and physical activity programmes to patients whose health would benefit from increased exercise.

  In 1987, a committee on medical aspects of food and nutrition policy (COMA) report was published on very low calorie diets (VLCD). The report highlighted that a
  992W
  major criticism of VLCDs is that individuals frequently re-gain any weight lost after the diet has ended. A recent report by the Royal College of Physicians (RCP 1998) on "clinical management of overweight and obese patients" supported the findings of the COMA panel.

  The National Institute for Clinical Excellence (NICE) has provided guidance on two anti-obesity drugs sibutramine and orlistat. Their guidance means patients can expect more equal access to these drugs in the future.

  NICE is currently reviewing the clinical effectiveness and cost effectiveness of surgery for morbid obesity, and is due to report later this year.

  Drug Inquiries (Liaison)
  Mr. Gray
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health whether NICE and Scottish NICE are allowed to liaise with each other about similarities and parallel inquiries into a particular drug. [50823]

  Ms Blears
  [holding answer 18 April 2002]: We would expect the National Institute of Clinical Excellence to work with any experts and health bodies it deems appropriate in order to deliver robust guidance to the national health service in England and Wales.

  Speech Therapists
  Mr. Lidington
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many posts for speech therapists in(a) the national health service and (b) each relevant trust are unfilled. [51060]

  Mr. Hutton
  [holding answer 18 April 2002]: The information requested has been placed in the Library.

  Anaemia
  Mr. Havard
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what assessment he has made of the advice from the British Committee for Standards in Haematology relating to blood transfusions and patients with chronic anaemia; [51547]

  (2) what assessment he has made of the advice for the British Committee for Standards in Haematology on the benefits for chronic anaemia patients of maintaining haemoglobin levels at more than 12 g/dl. [51546]

  Yvette Cooper
  The publication of guidelines from the British Committee for Standards in Haematology in 2001 provides specific advice to clinicians. The type of treatment offered to chronic anaemia patients is a matter of individual clinical judgment and discussion with the patient concerned. The Department encourages the production of local protocols, which use existing guidance produced from a sound evidence based and clinical consensus.

  Smallpox
  Mr. Swire
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment he has made of the amounts of smallpox vaccine necessary to treat the whole population in the event of a terrorist biological attack. [51786]

  Mr. Hutton
  The number of vaccine doses required to cover the population would be approximately 60 million.
  993W
  Mr. Dalyell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what percentage of the population would be expected to contract smallpox on a transmission ratio of(a) 4 to 6 and (b) 10 to 12. [44009]

  Mr. Hutton
  [holding answer 26 March 2002]: Crude estimates of the number of people that might contract smallpox following one initial case with prompt and vigorous public health intervention, assuming a United Kingdom population of 60 million are:
  for a transmission rate of 1:4–6 (mean 5) 34 cases (0.00006 per cent. of the population)
  for a transmission rate of 1:10–12 (mean 11) 11,800 cases (0.02 per cent. of the population).

  Rates of 10–12 would be more likely to occur only at the very start of an outbreak before public health interventions were implemented. Lower transmission rates would apply thereafter.

  Hospital Standards
  Mr. Brady
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what safeguards are in place to maintain standards for waiting times and other services for patients of the host hospital trust when two trusts enter into a contractual agreement for services. [52236]

  Mr. Hutton
  The NHS Plan clearly sets out the waiting times standards for both in-patients and out-patients and the staged improvements to be made each year. It is the responsibility of commissioners, including national health service trusts, to ensure that any contractual agreements entered into meet the extant waiting time standards set out in the NHS Plan.

  The Department regularly collects data from the NHS to monitor progress and achievement towards the NHS Plan targets.

  Organ Donation
  Dr. Kumar
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment he has made of the benefits of conducting targeted campaigns to encourage organ donation. [52454]

  Jacqui Smith
  The South Asian Campaign was launched in 1999. Research into the attitudes on general health issues and organ donation in particular helped to inform the development of this campaign. An evaluation of the campaign was carried out in October 2000 and this helped to inform phase III which was launched last September.

  The black campaign was launched in March 2002. The campaign focuses on the fact that black people are three times as likely to develop kidney failure and that under 1 per cent. of organ donors are black. Research to help develop this campaign was undertaken through Central Office of Information Communications. The Department will monitor the progress of the campaign carefully.

  Dr. Kumar
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many Black and Asian organ donors there were in each of the past 10 years. [52452]

  Jacqui Smith
  Number of Black and Asian organ donors in the last 10 years in the United Kingdom is shown in the table.
  994W

  Year

  Black/Black British

  As percentage of adonors where ethnic origin recorded

  Asian/Asian British

  As percentage of donors where ethnic origin recorded

  1995

  0

  0.0

  9

  4.7

  1996

  2

  0.7

  13

  4.7

  1997

  2

  0.7

  3

  1.1

  1998

  5

  1.9

  2

  0.8

  1999

  4

  1.5

  3

  1.1

  2000

  3

  0.4

  11

  1.5

  2001

  6

  0.8

  7

  0.9

  20021

  3

  1.5

  2

  1.0

  1 To 24 April 2002

  The ethnic origin of donors only started being recorded on the National Transplant Database in 1995 and in the years 1995–99 there are still many cases where the ethnic origin is not recorded so the figures for these years may be underestimated.

  Pariamentary Questions
  Mr. Burns
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) how many named day written questions were tabled between 1 November 2001 and 26 March 2002; and how many that received a holding answer were given a substantive answer(a) within three days, (b) within seven days, (c) within 14 days, (d) within 28 days and (e) over 28 days; [52268]

  (2) how many named day written questions were tabled between 1 November 2000 and 26 March 2001; and how many that received a holding answer were given a substantive answer (a) within three days, (b) within seven days, (c) within 14 days, (d) within 28 days and (e) over 28 days; [52269]

  (3) how many named day written parliamentary questions tabled between (a) 1 November 2000 and 26 March 2001 and (b) 1 November 2001 and 26 March 2002 received (i) a substantive answer on the named day and (ii) a holding answer. [52270]

  Ms Blears
  [holding answer 25 April 2002]: 1,887 named day written questions were tabled to this Department between 1 November 2001 and 26 March 2002. A manual count shows that around 50 per cent. received a holding reply.

  985 named day written questions were tabled to this Department between 1 November 2000 and 26 March 2001. A manual count shows that around 45 per cent. received a holding reply.

  The information on the current database does not support the further analysis sought, which could be obtained only by a manual count and which would incur a disproportionate cost. We are developing an improved database capable of providing more sophisticated analysis of information which should be introduced before the next parliamentary Session.

  Ministerial Training
  Mr. Bercow
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how much has been spent by his Department on training in leadership skills for Ministers and officials in each of the last five years. [52726]
  995W
  Blears
  [holding answer 26 April 2002]: The Department spent approximately £5.7 million training and developing its staff in 2000–01. Leadership is often one element of a wider personal development programme. Information on the amount attributed to development of leadership skills from such programmes could be provided only at disproportionate cost.

  Mr. Bercow
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how much has been spent by his Department on training by the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts for Ministers and officials in each of the last five years. [52749]

  Ms Blears
  [holding answer 26 April 2002]: The Department's records indicate that the Department has not paid for any Minister or official to receive training from the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art in any of the last five years.

  Suicide
  Ms Drown
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health whether the National Suicide Prevention Strategy will address the issue of assisted suicide; and if he will make a statement. [53196]

  Jacqui Smith
  The National Suicide Prevention Strategy for England, launched on 26 April for public consultation, does not address the issue of assisted suicide.

  We have no plans to change the law in this respect.

  Suicide
  Dr. Fox
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many MRI scanners there are in London. [53225]

  Mr. Hutton
  There are approximately 47 magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scanners installed in the national health service in London. It is estimated that there are a further 20 MRI scanners installed in the private sector in London.

  Disability Facilities
  Lynne Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will make it his policy that no elderly or disabled person should have to wait more than six months for aids and adaptations to enable them to take a bath or shower. [53314]

  Jacqui Smith
  Community equipment services that provide aids and adaptations determine local standards for assessing and responding to clients' needs. The national project to integrate health and social services' equipment services encourages those services to review and improve their standards with the expectation that they will use the new funding for these services announced in January 2001 to make waiting times as short as possible.

  Care Homes
  Dr. Murrison
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many care home places there were in Wiltshire in(a) 1997 and (b) at the latest date for which figures are available. [52988]

  Jacqui Smith
  Information on the number of places in residential and nursing care homes in Wiltshire at 31 March 1997 and 2001 is shown in the table.
  996W

  Residential and nursing care places in Wiltshire 1—at 31 March

  Rounded numbers

  1997

  2001

  Residential places

  4,510

  3,990

  Nursing places

  22,220

  2,060

  Total

  6,730

  6,050

  1 Figures are based on boundaries prior to local government reorganisation on 1 April 1997 and so for 2001 include Swindon unitary authority.

  2 Information relates to registered beds during the period 1 October 1996 to 31 March 1997.

  Source:

  Department of Health's annual returns.

  Mr. Nicholas Winterton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what change there has been in the number of care home beds in the Eastern Cheshire Primary Care Trust area since 1997. [53304]

  Jacqui Smith
  Information on care home places is not available at primary care trust level. The table shows the number of residential and nursing places in Cheshire at 31 March each year.

  Residential and nursing care places in Cheshire, 1997 to 2001

  At 31 March

  rounded numbers, rates

  1997

  1998

  1999

  2000

  2001

  Residential places1

  5,090

  5,320

  5,360

  5,730

  5,530

  Nursing places2

  35,390

  5,910

  5,750

  5,560

  5,470

  Total

  10,480

  11,240

  11,110

  11,290

  11,000

  Percentage change

  —

  7

  -1

  2

  -3

  1 Information is based on the boundaries for Cheshire county council prior to local government re-organisation on 1 April 1998. Information for 1999 onwards therefore includes Halton and Warrington unitary authorities.

  2 Information is presented for North Cheshire and South Cheshire health authorities

  3 Information for 1997 relates to registered beds during the period 1 October 1996 to 31 March 1997

  Source:

  Department of Health's annual returns

  British Red Cross
  Mr. Lidington
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what financial support his Department has given since 1 April 2000 to projects run by the British Red Cross. [52946]

  Jacqui Smith
  [holding answer 26 April 2002]: The British Red Cross was awarded a Section 64 grant for a three year project in the intermediate care programme at £122,000 for 2001–02, £122,000 for 2002–03 and £100,000 for 2003–04, to be paid with equal matched funding from the Home Office's Active Community Unit.

  Press Subscriptions
  Mr. Yeo
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will list the newspapers subscribed to(a) Monday to Saturday and (b) on Sunday by his Department, stating for each subscription (i) the number of copies taken, and (ii) the annual cost. [52831]

  Ms Blears
  [holding answer 26 April 2002]: The newspapers subscribed to by the Department in 2002, the number of copies and the annual cost of each subscription are shown in the table.
  997W

  Newspaper

  Monday- Friday

  Saturday

  Sunday

  Approx. annual cost per title (£)

  Birmingham Post

  3

  2

  —

  331.20

  Daily Mail

  14

  2

  —

  1,603.20

  Daily Mirror

  12

  1

  —

  1,081.44

  Daily Star

  7

  1

  —

  579.60

  Daily Telegraph

  16

  6

  —

  2,452.80

  Evening Standard

  23

  —

  —

  2,125.20

  Express

  13

  2

  —

  1,255.80

  Financial Times

  20

  6

  —

  5,568

  Guardian

  20

  6

  —

  3,048

  Independent

  21

  6

  —

  3,157.20

  Independent on Sunday

  —

  —

  5

  288

  Mail on Sunday

  —

  —

  4

  211.20

  Manchester Evening News

  1

  —

  —

  276

  Morning Star

  3

  3

  —

  792

  News of the World

  —

  —

  2

  62.4

  Northern Daily Echo

  1

  —

  —

  76.80

  Observer

  —

  —

  5

  288

  South London Press

  1

  —

  —

  19.20

  Southern Daily Echo

  11

  —

  —

  276

  Sun

  12

  1

  —

  993.60

  Sunday Express

  —

  —

  3

  144

  Sunday Mirror

  —

  —

  2

  62.40

  Sunday People

  —

  —

  2

  62.40

  Sunday Telegraph

  —

  —

  4

  192

  Sunday Times

  —

  —

  6

  345.60

  Times

  19

  6

  —

  2,299.20

  Yorkshire Post

  1

  1

  —

  388.32

  1 Friday

  The approximate total annual cost is £27,980 to which suppliers apply a discount of 13.5 per cent. to some titles. This information covers central purchasing through the Department's library for library use and for retention by individual units. The figures are based on subscriptions purchased in January and February 2002, and extrapolated for 12 months to give the annual figures. Newspaper titles purchased remain fairly constant but there are variations in number of copies per title due to cancellations and new purchases.

  Prescription Charges
  Dr. Evan Harris
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment he has made of the percentage of prescriptions incurring a charge which were not dispensed in the last three years. [53367]

  Ms Blears
  No assessment has been made of the extent to which people incurring a charge do not make use of prescriptions. Around 85 per cent. of items are dispensed free of charge and around 50 per cent. of the population do not have to pay charges.

  Matrons
  Tim Loughton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many matrons have been recruited since his Department's announcement on the issue, broken down by(a) PCT areas and (b) age. [53300]

  Mr. Hutton
  [holding answer 29 April 2002]: Available information was published in a report, 'Modern Matrons in the NHS: a progress report', on 15 April 2002 and is set out in the table. Data was collected prior to changes that took effect on I April 2002, and is therefore presented within old regional office boundaries. Data broken down by PCT area and by age is not available centrally.
  998W

  Region

  Number of matrons by April 2002

  London

  452

  North West

  224

  South West

  261

  Trent

  205

  West Midlands

  210

  Northern and Yorkshire

  239

  SouthWest

  180

  Eastern

  124

  Princess Royal Hospital (Haywards Heath)
  Tim Loughton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what occupational therapy is available for patients of the Villa psychiatric ward at the Princess Royal Hospital in Haywards Heath; [53280]

  (2) what work is taking place at the Princess Royal Hospital in Haywards Heath to remove asbestos panelling in the Villa psychiatric ward. [53293]

  (3) what recent representations he has received on behalf of patients regarding conditions at the Villa psychiatric ward at the Princess Royal Hospital in Haywards Heath. [53279]

  Ms Blears
  [holding answer 29 April 2002]: Information on the occupational therapy services available for patients in the Villa psychiatric ward is not held centrally. However, it is recognised locally that there needs to be improvements in the provision of occupational therapy and other activities for patients. West Sussex Health and Social Care NHS Trust, which now has responsibility for the facility, is taking action as a matter of urgency to bring this about.

  The Villa ward is currently undergoing refurbishment to the bathroom and toilet areas. As part of this work, it has been necessary to remove and replace asbestos panels located in the service ducts. I have been assured that the existing panels are contained within the trust's asbestos register, that the work is being undertaken by authorised asbestos removal contractors and notifications have been given to the Health and Safety Executive.

  Tim Loughton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what security arrangements are in force for protection of medical records for psychiatric patients at the Princess Royal Hospital in Haywards Heath. [53281]

  Ms Blears
  [holding answer 29 April 2002]: Medical records for current patients are kept under lock and key on the ward. Records for discharged patients are kept under lock and key in secure rooms.

  I was very concerned to learn that individuals entered the Villa Ward office and appeared to have looked at confidential records and removed other items. The break-in was reported to Sussex Police and they are currently investigating. An internal investigation is being carried out by the Trust.

  MMR
  Tim Loughton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what measures have been taken by his Department
  999W
  to maintain records of children who have been vaccinated for measles, mumps and rubella by separate injections through private providers. [53269]

  Yvette Cooper
  [holding answer 29 April 2002]: It is the responsibility of private providers to submit information on children who have had separate vaccines either to the general practitioner (GP) responsible for the child's care, or to the primary care trust where they live. If the private provider does not submit such information, it can only be ascertained by either the GP or the community child health unit approaching the parents of apparently unimmunised children.

  Antenatal maternity Units
  Tim Loughton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many antenatal maternity units have been modernised since 2001. [53316]

  Yvette Cooper
  [holding answer 29 April 2002]: Over 200 maternity units in England received a share of the £100 million capital investment to carry out a range of major and minor projects some of which included upgrading of antenatal units.

  Projects relating to refurbishment of antenatal units are in various stages of completion, with equipment purchased for some, redecoration work underway in most, while some projects involving building work are in the tendering process. All projects should be completed around April 2003.

  Hepatitis C
  Tim Loughton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what estimate his Department has made of the number of people infected with hepatitis C in the United Kingdom. [53275]

  Yvette Cooper
  [holding answer 29 April 2002]: It is estimated that 0.4 per cent. of the general population in England (about 200,000 people) have chronic hepatitis C infection. Information on the prevalence of chronic hepatitis C infection in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland can be obtained from the respective devolved administrations.

  Tim Loughton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will make a statement on the main common characteristics of those suffering from hepatitis C in the United Kingdom. [53277]

  Yvette Cooper
  [holding answer 29 April 2002]: In the majority of cases, people who acquire hepatitis C infection do not have any immediate symptoms. Only a small proportion of patients develop an acute illness with jaundice soon after infection. Up to 80 per cent. of people infected with hepatitis C develop chronic infection. Many of those remain well or only develop symptoms after many years, with the onset of complications of chronic liver disease. Some of those with chronic infection report non-specific symptoms, such as tiredness and fatigue, muscle pains and aching joints, depression, and some complain of poor memory or concentration.

  Worthing and Southlands Hospitals NHS Trust
  Tim Loughton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many nurses have been recruited to Worthing 1000W
  and Southlands Hospitals Trust; and, of these, how many have been recruited from overseas and from which countries. [53321]

  Ms Blears
  [holding answer 29 April 2002]: Worthing and Southlands Hospitals NHS Trust has advised that the figures for the last two years are as follows:

  Total nursing staff recruited

  Overseas recruitment (percentage)

  2000–01

  1202

  225

  2001–02

  3221

  4,567 overseas nurses (30 per cent.)

  1 Of which 72 were nurse assistants.

  2 Philippines 12 per cent.

  3 Of which 59 were nurse assistants

  4 65—Philippines.

  5 2—South Africa.

  Source:

  Worthing and Southlands Hospitals NHS Trust.

  Acute Services (East Kent)
  Hugh Robertson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what progress has been made with the review of acute services in East Kent; and when he expects it to make a decision. [52978]

  Ms Blears
  [holding answer 29 April 2002]: The Kent and Medway health authority considered the options for the configuration of acute services in East Kent on 16 April. Their recommendations will be put to Ministers shortly.

  Kent Ambulance NHS Trust
  Hugh Robertson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health for what reason he has forbidden the Kent Ambulance NHS Trust to recruit substantively to senior management positions. [52980]

  Ms Blears
  [holding answer 29 April 2002]: It is for the new Kent and Medway strategic health authority to determine if senior posts, currently vacant, should be filled during the period of the review of ambulance services.

  As the hon. Member is aware, health authorities, together with their primary care trusts, will review the position of their local ambulance services. They will make recommendations to the director of health and social care for the south, by September 2002, about how ambulance services should be organised in the future.

  Mr. Laurence Robertson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what progress has been made with the review into the Kent Ambulance NHS Trust; and when it is expected to be complete. [52979]

  Ms Blears
  [holding answer 29 April 2002]: As announced on 15 January 2002, health authorities, together with their primary care trusts, will review the position of their local ambulance services. They will make recommendations to the director of health and social care for the south, by September 2002, about how ambulance services should be organised in the future.

  Nursing Care
  Mr. McCabe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) how the allocation of free nursing care outside hospital is monitored; [53461]

  (2) what avenues exist for individuals and their relatives to appeal when (a) claimants are not adequately assessed for nursing care and (b) when necessary items are excluded and then subjected to charging and means-testing; [53462]

  (3) what mechanisms exist within the NHS to ensure that nursing care outside hospital is free. [53460]

  Jacqui Smith
  Guidance was issued to the national health service and to councils with social service responsibilities on 25 September 2001 under cover of HSC 2001/17: LAC (2001)26. The National Health Service (Nursing Care in Residential Accommodation) (England) Directions 2001 direct the national health service to carry out these functions. Copies of the guidance and the directions are in the Library.

  From I October 2001, the NHS became responsible for determining the need for care by a registered nurse of all people who pay the full costs of their nursing care themselves and for arranging payments to nursing homes. Budget responsibilities lie with the nursing home co-ordinator and professional responsibilities with a lead nurse. From that date nobody should have to pay for the care that they need from a registered nurse. This corrects the anomaly of people in a nursing home having to pay for the care from a registered nurse that would have been provided free of charge in any other setting.

  All new residents entering homes after that date will have had their needs reviewed within three months and 12 months thereafter. It is open to anyone—the resident, their family or the nursing home—to seek a review of any determination made if they feel it does not accurately reflect the person's need for a registered nurse. The lead nurse may arrange for a further determination to be carried out. If anyone remains dissatisfied, the matter can be referred to the health authority's continuing care panel for a decision to be reviewed.

  Residents of nursing homes should have access to services from the NHS and local authorities on the same basis as they would if they were in any other setting. Local authorities continue to be able to charge for some of the services that they provide. For residents of care homes providing residential care and those receiving care in their own home, NHS services are provided free of charge directly by the community nursing service. In the case of nursing home residents, nursing homes are paid for the care from a registered nurse that a person needs and which they provide.

  BCG Vaccination
  Dr. Fox
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health which health authorities do not provide the BCG vaccination. [38683]

  Yvette Cooper
  [holding answer 28 February 2002]: The Government have recommended continually since 1953 that BCG vaccine should be routinely offered to all school children aged 10 to 14. These recommendations are set out in the book "Immunisation against infectious disease" (1996).
  1002W
  The national schools BCG programme resumed in March 2001 following a period of suspension from September 1999 due to limited supplies of the vaccine. However, routine BCG vaccine is currently not being offered to school children in Oxford, Avon and York/Selby.

  The Department will be working with all health authorities to ensure that they comply with the policy in the coming school year.

  NHS Professionals
  Mr. Heald
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps he is taking to ensure that accurate comparisons can be made of the costs of NHS Professionals and commercial nurses' agencies. [41727]

  Mr. Hutton
  Agency framework agreements are currently being put in place with commercial agencies providing temporary staff to the national health service.

  These will clearly set out each agency's charging rates, and allow cost comparisons with NHS professionals, who charge a standard management fee of 7 per cent. to cover operational costs.

  Private Finance Initiative
  Dr. Fox
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what changes he plans to make to the development of private finance initiative schemes. [53229]

  Mr. Hutton
  The Department issued guidance on 21 March 2002 which sets out a number of initiatives that are designed to speed up private finance initiative (PFI) procurement and ensure that the national health service obtains the best value from the current market.

  The guidance entitled "Improving PFI Procurement" can be found on the dedicated Department's PFI website at www.doh.gov.uk/pfi

  The operation of the PFI process will continue to be monitored and refined to ensure it makes its contribution to the modernisation of the NHS set out in the NHS plan.

  Locums
  Dr. Fox
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will make a statement on progress with including locums on health authority supplementary lists. [53226]

  Mr. Hutton
  Health authorities and primary care trusts have until 31 May 2002 to complete the initial compilation of their supplementary lists.

  Provisional information provided by health authorities indicates that sufficient numbers of non-principals had applied to join supplementary lists, at 31 March, to maintain the existing level of support provided by this section of the work force to General Medical Services.

  Waiting Times
  Dr. Fox
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what the average waiting time for routine endoscopies was in the last 12 months. [53231]

  Mr. Hutton
  We do not collect waiting times for endoscopy. The NHS cancer plan sets out new goals to reduce waiting times for cancer patients. The target is that
  1003W
  by 2005 no one should wait longer than two months from urgent general practitioner referral to beginning cancer treatment except for a good clinical reason or through patient choice. This target period includes the time for necessary diagnostic tests including endoscopy. Data collection on the waiting times to treatment targets will be introduced as we roll out the cancer plan waiting times targets.

  £2.5 million over three years has been made available within the national cancer plan to train more GPs, nurses, surgeons and gastroenterologists to meet the rising demand for endoscopy. This training will increase the number of diagnostic investigations that will be able to be carried out as an aid to diagnosis for patients with suspected cancer.

  Cancelled Operations
  Dr. Fox
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what plans he has to broaden the definition of cancelled operation to include operations cancelled the day before admission. [53223]

  Mr. Hutton
  1 refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave him on 19 April 2002,Official Report, column 1227W.

  Nursing and Midwifery Council
  Dr. Fox
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what recent advice his Department has given to the Nursing and Midwifery Council on registration procedures. [53224]

  Mr. Hutton
  None.

  General Practitioner Appraisals
  Dr. Fox
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he plans to announce the recruitment of further GP appraisers. [53230]

  Mr. Hutton
  Primary care trusts (PCTs) are responsible for ensuring they have sufficient appraisers to implement general practitioners (GPs) appraisals. Most PCTs have put forward between three and 10 GPs. We are pleased with the progress being made.

  Nurses
  Dr. Fox
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health for what reason the fees for the re-registration of nurses have increased in the last year. [53232]

  Mr. Hutton
  Registration fees for nurses, midwives and health visitors are the responsibility of the Nursing and Midwifery Council. The increase, which was decided by its predecessor, the United Kingdom Central Council for Nursing, Midwifery and Health Visiting, and introduced from 1 October 2001, was to match increases in core business, notably on casework relating to professional conduct.

  Occupational Health
  Dr. Tonge
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what proportion of the new investment in the NHS is to be devoted to(a) workplace health and (b) the development of the occupational health service. [53600]
  1004W
  Mr. Hutton
  Decisions about what proportion of the extra resources for the national health service announced in the 2002 Budget is to be devoted to workplace health and occupational health services will be taken locally rather than nationally.

  Good occupational health and safety is an essential part of the effective management of the health of people at work. "The Effective Management of Occupational Health and Safety Services in the NHS", issued by the Department of Health in November 2001, describes the range of services which should be available to all staff working in the NHS and sets a number of standards for their delivery. The service delivery standards form part of the Improving Working Lives programme in the NHS.

  Primary Care Trusts (Leeds)
  Mr. Challen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what level of extra funding each primary care trust in Leeds may receive as a result of the changes announced in the Budget statement. [53333]

  Mr. Hutton
  As a result of the Budget, the national health service in England will receive an annual average real terms growth in resources of 7.4 per cent. for the five years from 2003–04 to 2007–08. Local allocations to primary care trusts will be announced later this year.

  Primary Care Premises
  Dr. Evan Harris
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many primary care premises have been improved in(a) England and (b) each health authority since March 1999. [45718]

  Mr. Hutton
  [holding answer 25 March 2002]: The number of improvements to premises used by General Practitioners in England and by health authority from April 1999 to December 2001 are shown in the table.

  The table includes provisional data for 2001–02.

  Health authority

  improvements

  Bradford

  13

  County Durham and Darlington

  12

  East Riding and Hull

  11

  Gateshead and South Tyneside

  1

  Leeds

  30

  Newcastle and North Tyneside

  23

  North Cumbria

  21

  Northumberland

  21

  Sunderland

  6

  Tees

  32

  Wakefield

  13

  North Yorkshire

  13

  Calderdale and Kirklees

  16

  Barnsley

  5

  North Derbyshire

  11

  Southern Derbyshire

  18

  Doncaster

  3

  Leicestershire

  25

  Lincolnshire

  21

  North Nottinghamshire

  6

  Nottingham

  11

  Rotherham

  4

  Sheffield

  6

  South Humber

  10

  Birmingham

  31

  Coventry

  5

  Dudley

  12

  Herefordshire

  0

  1005W

  Health authority

  improvements

  Sandwell

  2

  Shropshire

  9

  Solihull

  2

  North Staffordshire

  16

  South Staffordshire

  6

  Walsall

  9

  Warwickshire

  13

  Wolverhampton

  39

  Worcestershire

  1

  South Lancashire

  10

  Liverpool

  13

  Manchester

  7

  Morecambe Bay

  7

  St. Helens and Knowsley

  29

  Salford and Trafford

  16

  Sefton

  33

  Stockport

  1

  West Pennine

  13

  Bury and Rochdale

  10

  North Cheshire

  24

  South Cheshire

  14

  East Lancashire

  10

  North West Lancashire

  6

  Wigan and Bolton

  15

  Wirral

  28

  Bedfordshire

  8

  North Essex

  6

  South Essex

  32

  Suffolk

  4

  Cambridgeshire

  25

  Norfolk

  20

  Hertfordshire

  12

  Hillingdon

  10

  Kensington, Chelsea and Westminster

  23

  Redbridge and Waltham Forest

  7

  Croydon

  13

  Kingston and Richmond

  2

  Lambeth, Southwark and Lewisham

  3

  Merton, Sutton and Wands worth

  13

  Barking and Havering

  27

  Brent and Harrow

  35

  Camden and Islington

  7

  Ealing, Hammersmith and Hounslow

  13

  East London and City

  48

  Barnet, Enfield and Haringey

  6

  Bromley, Bexley and Greenwich

  12

  Berkshire

  27

  Buckinghamshire

  9

  East Kent

  31

  West Kent

  12

  East Surrey

  13

  West Surrey

  41

  East Sussex, Brighton and Hove

  15

  West Sussex

  61

  Northamptonshire

  20

  Oxfordshire

  20

  North and Mid Hampshire

  36

  Southampton and SW Hampshire

  48

  Isle of Wight, Portsmouth and South East Hampshire

  21

  Somerset

  0

  South and West Devon

  39

  Wiltshire

  8

  Avon

  10

  Cornwall and Isles of Scilly

  0

  Dorset

  11

  North and East Devon

  3

  Gloucestershire

  2

  England

  1,452

  Correspondence
  Mr. Blunt
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will list which individuals and bodies he understands to be represented by the phrase "all concerned" in Sir William Wells' letter to him of 28 February 2001 as being content to publish the draft statement appended to that letter. [51930]

  Ms Blears
  This is a matter for Sir William Wells.

  NHS Staff Numbers
  Mr. Burstow
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many vacancies there were for(a) occupational therapists, (b) physiotherapists and (c) speech and language therapists in each NHS region in each year from 1997. [53473]

  Mr. Hutton
  Between 1999 and 2001 there have been increases in the number of physiotherapists, occupational therapists and speech and language therapists of:

  1,250 (10 per cent.) occupational therapists

  1,140 (7.75 per cent.) physiotherapists

  400 (8 per cent.) speech and language therapists.

  The information requested on vacancies has been placed in the Library. The Department did not collect vacancy information in 1997 or 1998.

  Mr. Burstow
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many(a) occupational therapists, (b) physiotherapists and (c) speech and language therapists were employed in the NHS in each NHS region in each year since 1997. [53471]

  Mr. Hutton
  The information requested is shown in the table.

  Overall between 1997 and 2001 the number of

  occupational therapists has increased by 2,390 (20 per cent.)

  physiotherapists has increased by 1,970 (14 per cent.)

  speech and language therapists has increased by 810 (16 per cent.).

  NHS hospital and community health services (HCHS): qualified scientific, therapeutic and technical staff within the specified areas of work and NHS regional office areas as at 30 September each year

  1997

  1998

  1999

  2000

  2001

  Occupational therapists

  11,520

  11,980

  12,660

  13,130

  13,910

  Northern and Yorkshire

  1,390

  1,430

  1,550

  1,640

  1,750

  Trent

  1,260

  1,310

  1,400

  1,420

  1,580

  West Midlands

  1,050

  1,150

  1,220

  1,260

  1,340

  NorthWest

  1,490

  1,540

  1,620

  1,710

  1,820

  Eastern

  1,090

  1,150

  1,210

  1,270

  1,410

  London

  1,670

  1,760

  1,870

  1,940

  2,000

  South East

  2,050

  2,070

  2,150

  2,190

  2,340

  SouthWest

  1,410

  1,460

  1,540

  1,590

  1,680

  Others

  100

  90

  100

  100

  0

  Physiotherapists

  14,240

  14,700

  15,070

  15,610

  16,210

  Northern and Yorkshire

  1,970

  2,000

  2,070

  2,120

  2,270

  Trent

  1,450

  1,530

  1,570

  1,610

  1,600

  West Midlands

  1,580

  1,630

  1,670

  1,740

  1,750

  North West

  2,070

  2,150

  2,170

  2,280

  2,360

  Eastern

  1,170

  1,220

  1,270

  1,300

  1,400

  London

  2,030

  2,120

  2,230

  2,300

  2,320

  South East

  2,350

  2,390

  2,420

  2,480

  2,670

  SouthWest

  1,620

  1,660

  1,680

  1,790

  1,850

  1007W

  NHS hospital and community health services (HCHS): qualified scientific, therapeutic and technical staff within the specified areas of work and NHS regional office areas as at 30 September each year

  1997

  1998

  1999

  2000

  2001

  Speech and language therapists

  4,870

  5,030

  5,180

  5,430

  5,680

  Northern and Yorkshire

  570

  570

  600

  640

  690

  Trent

  500

  480

  460

  530

  520

  West Midlands

  510

  540

  540

  570

  580

  North West

  660

  690

  700

  750

  730

  Eastern

  410

  450

  460

  500

  510

  London

  840

  910

  960

  960

  1,020

  South East

  890

  880

  920

  950

  1,060

  South West

  490

  500

  540

  530

  570

  Others1

  2—

  2—

  2—

  2—

  2—

  1 Others include special health authorities and other statutory bodies

  2 Five or less and greater than zero

  Notes:

  1. Due to the new regional office boundaries in 1999 the 1997 and 1998 figures are estimated regional splits

  2. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10

  Source:

  Department of Health non-medical workforce census

  Ambulance Service Reviews
  Mr. Wilshire
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will publish a list of ambulance service reviews carried out in south-east England in the last five years, stating(a) when each began, (b) when each was conducted, (c) how much each cost and (d) how much was spent on consultants on each occasion. [53914]

  Ms Blears
  In 1999 the national health service executive's south-east regional office first asked ambulance trusts in the south-east to review their structures to ascertain whether their number and size were appropriate to enable them to fulfil core duties, including emergency services, effectively. This culminated in formal proposals for a review of ambulance service in the region which were circulated for public consultation between May and September 2001.

  As a result of the consultation it was announced on 15 January 2002 that health authorities, together with their primary care trusts, would review the position of their local ambulance services. They will make recommendations to the Director of Health and Social Care for the south, by September 2002, about how ambulance services should he organised in the future. This is the only review conducted centrally. Each ambulance trust also reviewed its service in terms of performance standards.

  Information on local reviews of ambulance services is not collected centrally.

  No additional work force costs were incurred as most of the work in connection with the review of ambulance services in the south-east has been carried out by existing civil servants at the Department and staff at health authorities and trusts. Additional costs were incurred for printing and the hire of, for example, church halls, for public meetings. Consultants KPMG were also involved in some service reviews. However, the wide ranging nature of the process and the number of organisations involved have meant that no central collation of costs was made.

  National Insurance
  Mr. Wilshire
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will estimate the cost of the 1 per cent. increase in national insurance payments for each NHS trust in its first year of application. [53934]

  Mr. Hutton
  It is not possible to estimate the cost for each individual national health service trust. The cost to the NHS as a whole is estimated to be around £200 million next year, or 0.3 per cent. of total NHS spending.

  Ashford and St. Peter's Hospitals
  Mr. Wilshire
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many franchising bids he has received for the post of Chief Executive of the Ashford and St. Peter's Hospitals NHS Trust. [53915]

  Ms Blears
  The Department's directorate of health and social care for the south of England has received two expressions of interest. An announcement will be made shortly.

  Anti-TB Vaccination
  Dr. Fox
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what the commercial basis of the decision to award the anti-TB vaccination contract to Powderject was. [38678]

  Yvette Cooper
  [holding answer 28 February 2002]: The contract was awarded to Powderject under European Union public procurement regulations.

  Powderject was the only manufacturer with a United Kingdom licence to supply BCG vaccine at that time.

  Doctors' Salaries
  Mr. Woodward
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what the starting salary for(a) junior house officers and (b) senior house officers in (i) the north-west, (ii) the south-east, (iii) the north-east, (iv) the midlands and (v) Scotland was in (a) 1999, (b) 2000 and (c) 2001; what it is in 2002; and what it will be in (1) 2003 and (2) 2004. [44998]

  Mr. Hutton
  [holding answer 25 March 2002]: The basic starting salaries of junior doctors are negotiated and determined nationally, and therefore show no regional variation. This includes Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

  The following table shows as starting salaries the first scale point for house officers and senior house officers over the period 1999 to 2002.

  House officer

  Senior house officer

  1999

  16,710

  20,845

  2000

  17,260

  21,535

  2001

  17,935

  22,380

  2002

  18,585

  23,190

  These are basic salaries, subject to a post-specific supplement to reflect the intensity and unsocial hours aspects of the work of that post. Supplements range from

  1009W
  20 per cent. of basic salary to 70 per cent. of basic salary; most posts attract at least 50 per cent. Regional variations are not significant. The salaries of doctors in training form part of the remit of the Review Body on Doctors' and Dentists' Remuneration (DDRB). Doctors' pay is influenced by DDRB recommendations and salary levels in 2003 and beyond will be dependent upon the views of that body in the light of the circumstances at the time.

  GP and Dental Services
  Mr. Breed
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what proportion of(a) general practitioners and (b) dentists were located (i) within five, (ii) five to 10, (iii) 10 to 15 and (iv) more than 15 kilometres from settlements with under 3,000 people in (a) 1999, (b) 2000 and (c) 2001. [46507]

  Mr. Hutton
  [holding answer 15 April 2002]: Table A shows the estimated percentage of general practitioners in England who were located within (i) five, (ii) five to 10, (iii) 10 to 15 and (iv) more than 15 kilometres from settlements with under 3,000 people, at September for 1999, 2000 and 2001. Table B shows the equivalent data for dentists.

  Table A: Estimate of the percentage of Unrestricted Principals and Equivalent (UPEs) within certain distances from settlements with under 3,000 people at September for each of the years 1999, 2000 and 2001 in England

  Percentage

  Distance from settlement

  1999

  2000

  2001

  Less than 5 km

  88

  88

  88

  5 km to 10 km

  7

  7

  7

  10 km to 15 km

  5

  4

  4

  Greater than 15 km

  0

  0

  0

  Note:

  Data as at 1 October 1999 and 30 September 2000 and 2001.

  Source:

  Department of Health General and Personal Medical Services Statistics.

  Table B: General Dental Service—estimated percentage of principal dentists1 within certain distances from settlements with under 3,000 people at September for each of the years 1999, 2000 and 2001

  Percentage

  Distance from settlement

  1999

  2000

  2001

  Less than 5 km

  85

  86

  86

  5 km to 10 km

  9

  8

  8

  10 km to 15 km

  6

  6

  6

  Greater than 15 km

  3—

  3—

  3—

  1 Dentists are General Dental Service principals on health authority lists. They are counted at every location where they practice Assistants and vocational dental practitioners are excluded

  2 Dentists who had a payment claim processed in September.

  3 Less than 1 per cent.

  Acute Hospitals
  Mr. Hoban
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will list those parties which have indicated interest in providing franchised management services for acute hospitals. [50800]

  Mr. Hutton
  [holding answer 18 April 2002]: The Department is setting up a register of interest for organisations outside of the national health service which are interested in taking on the management franchise for
  1010W
  poorly performing NHS trusts. The register will be made public and its criteria published in full. The Department has not yet formally invited expressions of interest, pending publication of the register in the summer.

  Negligence Claims
  Dr. Jack Cunningham
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many negligence claims have been made against the NHS in each of the last five years; what the cost was to the NHS from negligence claims over that period; what the average length of time was for a negligence case against the NHS to be settled; and how many inquiries have been set up following settlement of negligence claims against the NHS in those years. [53035]

  Ms Blears
  [holding answer 1 May 2002]: The Department does not hold figures for all negligence claims made against the NHS.

  Overall figures for expenditure on clinical negligence, which have been taken from the national audited summarised accounts for health authorities, NHS trusts and NHS litigation authority (NHSLA), for each of the latest years are as follows:

  £ million

  1996–97

  235

  1997–98

  144

  1998–99

  221

  1999–2000

  373

  Figures prior to 1996–97 are not available because clinical negligence was not separately identified in the accounts prior to that date. Changes to accounting policies mean that these amounts are not directly comparable. Data for 2000–01 are not available owing to the transfer of the existing liability scheme to the NHSLA and the format of the accounts.

  Golden Jubilee
  Nick Harvey
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what precautions(a) local hospitals and (b) emergency management services are planning to take in preparation for the crowds anticipated during the weekend of the Queen's Golden Jubilee; and if he will make a statement. [44596]

  Mr. Hutton
  Planning for big events, including the Queen's Golden Jubilee, is co-ordinated by the local police forces built upon tried and tested procedures. There are established major Incident procedures and cross border support mechanisms. All hospitals and ambulance services have major incident plans.

  The main celebrations for the Queen's Golden Jubilee are being held in London. The Department of Culture, Media and Sport has an operational and safety planning group, which includes emergency services and health representatives, to oversee the safety and health aspects of the events in the Royal Parks, the City of London and the processional route to St. Paul's Cathedral.
  1011W
  These systems are designed to treat as many casualties as possible at the event sites using first aid posts or advance treatment centres which will be staffed by
  1012W
  doctors, nurses and first alders. This will reduce vehicle movements around the events and reduce potential pressure on accident and emergency departments.

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Southwark.

Credit Reference Agencies
Lord Higginsasked Her Majesty's Government:
What steps have been taken by the Information Commissioner and credit agencies to ensure that, when an individual applies for credit, such agencies reveal information concerning that individual alone, and that data on others in the same family or at the same address remain confidential.
The Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department (Baroness Scotland of Asthal): My Lords, in response to concerns expressed by the commissioner, the industry is implementing proposals for restricting the use of third party data in the lending process. The main proposals are that financial connections will not be assumed solely on the basis of shared surnames and addresses; that parents and children will no longer automatically be assumed to be financially connected; and that individuals asking to see their credit files will normally receive only their own data.
Lord Higgins: My Lords, as the Data Protection Act was passed as long ago as 1998, does the Minister agree that the practice of credit rating agencies releasing personal financial information to other family members and to those thought to have a financial connect ion has gone on far too long? How much longer does she expect such a practice to continue? Surely, it should stop straightaway.
Secondly, will the Government consider the situation whereby the provision of inadequate information by credit rating agencies to lenders may result in wealthy and, more importantly, poor people being denied credit because they do not have much or any credit history?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, the new provisions will address the issues outlined by the noble Lord. The commissioner, as the noble Lord will know, did not have the ability to act independently in relation to this matter until the changes that took place in 1998. Before that time, she was bound by a tribunal decision that did not allow her to take action. The industry is working with the commission. There are three main agencies. One is already compliant with the proposals that I have outlined; the second is likely to be compliant by June; and the progress of the third credit reference agency is being carefully monitored.
On the noble Lord's second point, to whom such agencies lend their money will always be a matter of commercial judgment. There has to be sound practice
792
in that regard and one has to keep a watchful eye in relation to those matters. One cannot improperly interfere with what is, in essence, a commercial judgment.
Lord Borrie: My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is extremely undesirable for anyone to be over-committed with debt? If someone who is not credit-worthy lives in a household and applies for credit in the name of one of the other members of the household, and if the credit rating agency does not have information about the other members, what is to stop the non-credit-worthy person intercepting the replies and obtaining credit when he or she is completely non-credit-worthy?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I understand what the noble Lord says. What he has just described is fraud. We have laws that are perfectly capable of dealing with people who so act. The important point about the change is that it is unjust for the sins of the father to be visited on the son or vice versa. Each of us has an entitlement to be judged on what we do or do not do as opposed to that which is done by a member of our family.
Lord Rogan: My Lords, is the Minister satisfied that credit agencies now recognise BFPO addresses as permanent addresses for the purposes of assessing the credit worthiness of the members of our Armed Forces while they are serving abroad? If not, will she make representation to the credit rating agencies to rectify that anomaly?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I am very much aware of the concern raised by the noble Lord. Quite often our Armed Forces serve abroad and are put at a disadvantage. Of course, it is a matter for the commissioner but I shall take it into account and undertake to write to the noble Lord in relation to it.
Baroness Buscombe: My Lords, the Minister will know that it is extremely difficult to open a bank account if one does not have a credit rating. In that case, how will poor people open a bank account if they do not have a credit rating? What effect will that have on the Government's proposal for universal bank accounts?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I understand the difficulties to which the noble Baroness refers. It will be a matter for those who lend money to decide the basis on which that money is to be lent. Another problem is that of people undertaking commitments in relation to loans that they simply cannot afford. A working party has been set up to look at the issue of over-indebtedness. I am sure that that will be one of the issues that the working party may want to encompass.
Lord McNally: My Lords, will the Minister draw the attention of that working party to the advertising on commercial television, usually in the afternoons, by

793
companies that put a heavy emphasis on phrases such as "No credit rating will be asked for", "Your loan will be automatic" and so on? Such advertisements appear to be aimed at vulnerable people who have already experienced indebtedness and will get deeper into debt as a result of that kind of aggressive advertising.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I understand the concern rightly expressed by the noble Lord. In setting up the task force to explore the causes and effects of over-indebtedness, which was set up in October 2000, that was one of the issues to be considered. The task force reported in April 2001. The main proposals were as follows: first, that the Department of Trade and Industry should commission research into the causes, effect and extent of consumer over-indebtedness and identify solutions. The department expects to publish the outcome of that research later this year. Secondly, the DTI should set up a working group to look at credit marketing techniques, to improve credit information to consumers and to look at the way payment protection insurance is sold. Those groups have now been established. Thirdly, lenders should improve their data sharing and the information they give when they turn down applications, and should stop offering unchecked instant credit, to which the noble Lord referred. Already one major trade association has banned unchecked instant credit. So we are addressing this problem and are doing so with a great deal of energy.
Baroness Crawley: My Lords, can my noble friend say how she thinks the community legal service partnerships can assist in what is the central issue here; that is, over-indebtedness?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, we have tried to bring people together in relation to the provision of advice and legal services. Indebtedness is one of the issues to which many of the community legal service partnerships are rightly addressing their minds.

Five-pound Banknotes: Supply
3.15 p.m.
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bayasked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they will encourage banks in England and Wales to make more £5 notes available in cash machines and at branch counters.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, the production, issue and distribution of bank notes is the responsibility of the Bank of England. It is for the Bank to ensure that sufficient £5 notes are in circulation and that they are of suitable quality. Some banks have made a commercial decision to limit their stock of £5 notes and not to use them in cash machines for reasons of cost effectiveness and demand.
794
However, the Bank is working with high street banks, the Post Office and key retailers to improve the quantity and quality of £5 notes in circulation.
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Does he realise, and do the Government accept, that people want more fivers rather than pockets full of coins or large, inconvenient notes? The Bank of England is having to work through Marks & Spencer and Consignia because the banks are being extremely unhelpful in making £5 notes available. It is quite possible, as Northern Ireland shows, to make available £5 notes, but it is extremely difficult to get them from tills. Leading retailers have been conducting a survey. When will the banks begin to pay attention to the needs of their customers so we do not all have to make do with a few filthy fivers because they are not doing their job properly?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, fivers are filthy not because there are not enough of them, but because people shove them in their pockets with their change. They only last nine months; £10 and £20 notes last two to three years. Fivers last for much less time. However, the Bank of England is introducing new £5 notes on 21st May with the portrait of Elizabeth Fry instead of George Stephenson. I understand that they will be considerably tougher.
Cash machines normally have only two cassettes and it is the commercial judgment of the banks that, except in some cases like university towns, their customers want £10 and £20 notes rather than £5 notes.
Lord Brookman: My Lords, has my noble friend any idea as to whether or not the Government wish to reintroduce the old white £5 notes? Some on these Benches still have many in their possession.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, a share-out is called for! I remember them with affection. Perhaps my noble friend would like to go back to before 1855 when all bank notes had to be filled in by the cashier with the name of the payee. We do not intend to go that far back.
Lord Sheldon: My Lords, since the present £5 note is worth approximately the same amount as half-a-crown in 1939, has any consideration been given to producing a £5 coin?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, yes. The Bank of England does not believe that that would be appropriate at the present time. The £2 coins are doing rather well; let us wait until they settle in.
Lord Marlesford: My Lords, is the Minister aware that if the £50 note was adjusted for inflation since its original introduction, it would now be worth over £115? Is there not a case for introducing at least a £100 note given that euro notes go up to 500 euros, which is about £300?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I am not sure we want to follow the euro in having such large denominational notes. They are only in circulation in some European countries. There is a risk of money laundering being made easier because one can carry an awful lot of money in a single briefcase. I should have thought we had to be quite careful about introducing larger denomination notes.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: My Lords, has the Minister seen the survey carried out among its members by the British Retail Consortium? It clearly shows that the £5 note remains a popular and vital part of our currency. Will the Minister take on board the fact that banks are acting in their own interests and not in the interests of the general public?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, that is why we are grateful to high street retailers, members of the British Retail Consortium, for the help that they are giving to the Bank of England to keep £5 notes in circulation. Clearly, we shall not interfere in the commercial decisions of banks, but the Bank of England is taking steps to circumvent them.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, when people mention £5 coins, an automatic answer seems to be that they are too large and too heavy. Has consideration been given to the possibility of making higher value coins much smaller and lighter than lower value coins, as happens in Australia? Would not that be an answer with the £5 coin?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, for many years there has been a tendency for coins of any given denomination to become smaller and lighter. That is clearly welcome, but we still find heavy weights in our pockets and any additional coins, as opposed to notes, would not be attractive.
Lord Weatherill: My Lords, without wishing to prolong this discussion, if your Lordships wish to have brand new £5 notes, or even brand new £5 coins, they need go only to the post office in Central Lobby.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, that is a helpful suggestion.
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, my ambition in life is to be smaller and lighter. Following a conversation at lunch, does the Minister agree that it is important to maintain the difference in size of different notes to help blind people, to whom size is important?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, whatever changes the noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington, makes, she will never be less impressive. Let me make clear that her lunch was not with me, but the new £5 note will be the same size as the existing £5 note and the difference in size between existing denominations will be maintained.

Street Crime
3.22 p.m.
Baroness Blatchasked Her Majesty's Government:
What policy initiatives are in place or are due to be introduced to ensure that street crime is brought under control by the end of September.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords., the Government are introducing a comprehensive package of anti-street crime initiatives in the 10 force areas with the worst problem. Those include the fast-tracking of video identity parades; the establishment of specialist courts to deal with street crime and fast-tracking of cases; the extension of juvenile tagging on bail; clarification of the legality of bail door-stepping conditions; new powers for the courts to remand young people to secure accommodation; better systems for sharing information between schools and the police; more schemes involving police in schools; measures to crack down on truancy and bad behaviour in schools; and provision of full-time education for excluded pupils in the worst affected areas.
I can assure the House that there will be further announcements as more initiatives come on stream.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his list. The Prime Minister pledged to bring street crime under control by September. That pledge comes against a background of crime across England rising by 21 per cent; robberies up by 42 per cent; the number of police down by 500 since 1997; and the number of Specials down by 37 per cent—a mighty 7,100. If the Prime Minister is now pledged to bring all that under control in 16 weeks' time, why has he not been more successful during the past five years?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, the Government's record on crime is extremely impressive. Since 1997, crime has reduced by 21 per cent overall. I accept that robberies have increased during that time. That is precisely why the Government—the Prime Minister, the Home Secretary and the Government as a whole—are fully committed to introducing a range of measures to tackle crimes such as robbery and to ensure that they are swept from our streets.
Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate: My Lords, given that much street crime is caused by the misuse of hard drugs, does my noble friend agree that the approach of the Association of Chief Police Officers—to provide more treatment, as opposed to punishment—is sensible to deal with the problem? Those who argue that that is going soft on drugs are wrong, because that deals with the problem in a far smarter way by providing exits from the addiction that drives people to commit street crime.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, it is commonly accepted and widely known that drugs drive crime—street crime in particular. That is why the Government

797
have in the past couple of Budgets announced more resources to tackle crime. As part of that initiative, the Department of Health will ensure that the necessary drug treatments are in place, so that services are fully engaged in exchanging information—in particular, about children at risk from drugs and drug offences. So we are fully committed to ensuring that we do everything that we can to tackle the drugs menace.
Lord Dholakia: My Lords, can the Minister tell us of any additional financial resources available to criminal justice agencies to reduce crime by September? What advice—research advice in particular—did the Prime Minister receive about withdrawal of benefits from parents and its impact on crime?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, yesterday, the Home Office made an announcement of a budget boost to tackle street crime, along with a package of measures to assist the police in countering terrorism. On the question of child benefit and its withdrawal, the Prime Minister made plain yesterday that that is one of a number of proposals being actively considered as part of the Government's overall drive against antisocial behaviour.
Lord Renton: My Lords, does the noble Lord recollect that until about 30 or 40 years ago, streets in many of our urban areas were patrolled, even through the night, by pairs of police officers on foot? That helped to keep crime down. Might that not be an advantage now in some urban areas?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, of course we fully support, encourage and fund active beat patrolling by police officers. It is for the 34 chief constables and their senior officers to deploy their police resources as best they can. The Government are fully committed to ensuring that we have more police officers. By March next year, we will have 130,000 police officers serving in this country—a record number.
Lord Elton: My Lords, to what level will street crime have to be reduced for the Prime Minister to say that it has been brought under control? In other words, what is the Government's view of an acceptable level of street crime? Can we have a figure, so that we will know when we get there?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, any street crime is unacceptable. There is a Public Service Agreement target, which is to reduce robberies by 14 per cent during the next five years, but I expect that your Lordships' House would like street crime to be eradicated in its entirety.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, who will treat all those people; where will they be treated; and what will happen if they refuse to accept treatment—after all, they have committed crimes? What is the essence of the working of the plan?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, the anti-street crime initiative takes many forms. We are attacking the problem through schools, by having police officers attached to schools with particular problems. There will be more resources to deal with drug treatment and to tackle the increased use of courts. The police are receiving more resources to ensure that they can do their job with greater perception and accuracy. The whole strategy is linked, comprehensive and coherent, and it has the support of the police service.
Lord Avebury: My Lords, in the list of measures that the noble Lord read out, he said nothing about closed-circuit television cameras. Has the Metropolitan Police presented a budget for extra CCTV cameras in the areas worst affected by street crime? If so, how much of that money has been provided?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I do not have those figures to hand. As the noble Lord will know, the Government—and the previous government—have invested considerable resources in enhancing CCTV nationally. Budgets have been specifically set aside for that and the impact of CCTV is widely acknowledged as being most beneficial in driving down crime.

Public Expenditure: Health and Education
3.30 p.m.
Lord Chadlingtonasked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they propose to increase budget allocations in health and education to compensate for the increase in national insurance contributions announced in the Budget.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, the Chancellor announced in the Budget that spending on health would increase by over £40 billion over the next five years. Decisions on education spending and all other public services will be announced in this summer's spending review. Under existing plans, UK education spending will rise by £4.4 billion next year.
Lord Chadlington: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Can he tell the House what percentage of the NHS budget and the schools budget will go towards paying national insurance in 2005–07?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I do not have immediately to hand the figures for the percentages to be spent on national insurance. I have a figure for the increase caused by the increase in national insurance contributions. That is more relevant to the original Question. For the whole economy, the increase in national insurance contributions will cost 0.7 per cent of payroll costs. That puts the issue in perspective.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, does the Minister accept that the figure for education is over £80 million? Does he agree with me that, if that sum is not

799
compensated for pound for pound, the money can come only from within the services—health and education?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, the figure is considerably greater than £80 million; it is £180 million for schools in England. I think that, in the interests of accuracy, the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, should not underestimate the figures. It is more difficult to get figures for the whole of education, because universities are, strictly speaking, in the private sector, and we do not keep the information centrally.
With regard to the second question asked by the noble Baroness, I have said that, under existing plans, UK education spending will rise by £4.4 billion next year. We must look, as we did last week, at the contrast between the huge increase in expenditure on public services and the increase in costs for the public sector caused by the increase in national insurance contributions. Are the Opposition in favour of having the increases in national insurance contributions apply only to the private sector? Are they against improvements to public services?
Lord Newby: My Lords, does the Minister accept that, as a result of the changes announced in the Budget, the average primary school will have to pay £4,000 extra in national insurance and the average secondary school £20,000 extra? In the same Budget, it was announced that the Standards Fund receipts would amount to £5,500 per primary school and £16,000 per secondary school. Does the Minister agree that that is a classic example of the maxim, "What the Chancellor giveth the Chancellor also taketh away"?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, somebody must pay for public services, as my noble friend Lord Peston reminded the House last week. The figures that I have given for total expenditure on education are, of course, the current figures. It is not for me to anticipate the position in any sector—except health, for which decisions have already been taken—after the 2002 spending review, the results of which will be announced this summer.
Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, can we get to the core of the Question asked by my noble friend Lord Chadlington? What will the National Health Service have to pay because of the increase in contributions? Would it not be more candid to deduct that figure from the gross figure for how much more is being spent on the National Health Service? That would be a more accurate definition of what is actually being spent. At the moment, we have the ceaseless recirculation of money being paid in taxes which is then, allegedly, put back into the same service.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I shall certainly give the figures. I gave them last week and gladly do so again. The increase in national insurance contributions will cost the health service £300 million out of an increase of £6.7 billion. The House should
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concentrate on that relationship rather than thinking about the complications that the noble Lord, Lord Howell, would wish us to indulge in.
The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, is the Minister aware how welcome is the additional £66 million made available to schools on 25th April for, for example, extra behavioural support in classes to reduce truancy and exclusion? This morning, I spoke to the head teacher of a primary school in King's Cross who is desperate to obtain more support for one of her children. The child, whose mother and sister are heroin addicts, has a brain tumour. Additional resources will make all the difference to people such as that teacher, who has made a success of her school, which was once deemed by the Evening Standard to be one of the 10 worst schools in London.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, what the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, has said brings realism and a breath of fresh air to the debate.

Deputy Chairmen of Committees
3.35 p.m.
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Tordoff): My Lords, I beg to move the first Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, on behalf of the Committee of Selection, That the Lord Burnham, the Baroness Fookes, the Baroness Gould of Potternewton, the Lord Haskel and the Baroness Thomas of Walliswood be added to the Panel of Lords appointed to act as Deputy Chairmen of Committees for this Session.—(The Chairman of Committees.)
Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, will the Chairman of Committees confirm that the nominations made by the Committee of Selection are based on the criteria relating to standards in public life? In particular, I am thinking of objectivity, fairness and transparency. Is the objective basis for the evaluation of possible Deputy Chairmen of Committees transparently available to Members or do we still have a rather unclear system, operated through the usual channels?
The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, I suspect that it is the latter.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Communications
The Chairman of Committees: My Lords. I beg to move the second Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That the Commons message of yesterday be now considered, and that a Committee of six Lords be appointed to join with the Committee appointed by

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the Commons to consider and report on any draft Communications Bill presented to both Houses by a Minister of the Crown;
That, as proposed by the Committee of Selection, the Lords following be named of the Committee:

B. Cohen of Pimlico,

L. Crickhowell,

L. Hussey of North Bradley,

L. McNally,

L. Pilkington of Oxenford,

L. Puttnam;

That the Committee have power to agree with the Commons in the appointment of a Chairman;
That the Committee have leave to report from time to time;
That the Committee have power to appoint specialist advisers;
That the Committee have power to adjourn from place to place within the United Kingdom;
That the reports of the Committee from time to time shall be printed, notwithstanding any adjournment of the House;
That the Committee do report no later than three months after the presentation of any such draft Bill;
And that the Committee do meet with the Committee appointed by the Commons on Thursday 9th May at 3 o'clock in Room 134 Millbank House;
and that a message be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith.—(The Chairman of Committees.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Mobile Telephones (Re-programming) Bill [H.L.]
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Rooker, I beg to introduce a Bill to create offences in respect of unique electronic equipment identifiers of mobile wireless communications devices. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a first time.—(Lord Bassam of Brighton.)
On Question, Bill read a first time, and to be printed.

Education Bill
3.38 p.m.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education and Skills (Baroness Ashton of Upholland): My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Baroness Ashton of Upholland.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES in the Chair.]
Baroness Blatchmoved Amendment No. 1:
Before Clause 1, insert the following new clause—
"EXEMPTION OF INNOVATIVE PROJECTS
(1) This section has effect notwithstanding anything in Chapter 1 of this Act.
(2) A maintained school governing body may, in consultation with the parents of children at the school, resolve to implement an innovative project which, in the opinion of the governing body, contributes to the raising of educational standards achieved by registered pupils at the school.
(3) Subject to subsection (4), the governing body may resolve to exempt any innovative project from any requirement imposed by education legislation on the governing body.
(4) The Secretary of State shall by order designate any requirement imposed by education legislation on a school governing body as not subject to exemption, relaxation or modification by a governing body, even in the case of an innovative project.
(5) No order may be made under subsection (4), nor may any provision be made in such an order, unless the Secretary of State or the National Assembly for Wales as the case may be is satisfied that such order or provision may be made without detriment to the education at the school of those pupils having special educational needs."
The noble Baroness said: Amendment No. 1 is grouped with Amendments Nos. 4, 7, 8, 14, 15 and 157, which will, I believe, be spoken to by the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp of Guildford. This is the beginning of what will be a lively and lengthy discussion of the Bill. Despite the Written Answers, the policy papers and the endless missives from the department, the Bill is still strong on powers and central control but light on detail. Much of our effort in Committee will be expended in eliciting details from the Government of how they intend the powers to be used.
Few noble Lords will take issue with the Government's ambition that schools should be more proactive in exploring ways to raise standards. One key way to raise standards is to raise our expectations of children; when more is expected of children, more of them will rise to the challenge. However, at the outset of our debate, I must press the Government to spell out the problems experienced by schools that have led the Secretary of State to take such an open-ended power. What is it that a school is inhibited by law from doing in order to raise standards? I can think of examples such as altering term times and the number of days in the year on which attendance at school is required or the use of particular forms of punishment, which, in any case, is governed by European Union law. However, as regards almost any other aspect of running a school, exemption from legislation is not required.
In order to raise standards one could consider teaching boys and girls separately; various forms of streaming by ability or setting by subjects; homework patterns; lunchtime and after-school curricular activities; methods of teaching; mentoring; the use of technology, including inter-active media; team teaching; rote learning; whole-class teaching; group and individual learning; the use of assistants in the

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classroom, both paid and voluntary; field trips; town and country visits; in-school and out-of-school project learning; the involvement of outside bodies; intensive special needs teaching by withdrawing pupils from class for all or part of a day; special programmes for the most able and for the least able; and exploring more effective means of recording progress. I could fill many more pages with actions that could be taken to raise standards which do not require any exemption from existing law. It is for the Government to argue their case. So in attempting to raise standards, what proportion of schools have been prevented innovating by a legal constraint? If there were legal constraints, what were they?
I turn to a different point. Although through letters the Government have indicated the way in which the early clauses will be used, they have still not accepted the need to include certain safeguards in the Bill. For example, in answer to a Written Question (HL 3784) the Government indicated that the Secretary of State would consider the impact of any application to innovate on the breadth of provision available. That provision is not in the Bill.
They also indicated that the Government,
"would not in general regard a proposal to suspend the requirement to teach a compulsory subject as standards-raising unless appropriate arrangements were in place to secure high standards in the basics and a broad and balanced curriculum".—[Official Report, 30/4/02; col. WA93.]
They would not in general, but perhaps they would in particular cases. Again, there is no reference to that on the face of the Bill.
Fundamentally, no protection whatever is written into the Bill for children with special educational needs. The Bill is silent on that. Indeed, if the Government mean that no application would be accepted that disadvantaged any other group of children—including those with special educational needs—why not say so and why not say so on the face of the Bill?
Then there is the perennial issue of bureaucracy. With between 23,000 and 24,000 schools applying individually, or even in co-operative groups, where is the army of civil servants to crawl over each application in order to verify the quality of the bids; to check the impact of the proposals on children and surrounding schools; and to test the depth and effectiveness of any consultation?
During a previous debate on education, I said that civil servants in the DIES must shake with excitement when the Bills come forward because it means at least the sustenance of those in post and perhaps a doubling, trebling or even quadrupling of their army. One can only presume that the DfES has not lost its appetite for controlling from the centre.
My amendment and those tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, aim to achieve the same result: that is, to encourage innovation with the aim of raising standards and to innovate, subject of course to the Secretary of State setting out by order in Parliament any requirement that would not be subject to exemption, relaxation or modification. In that way, if
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the Government believed that a broad and balanced curriculum must be provided and that no other group of children should be disadvantaged by a proposal or any other constraint they wanted to put in place, they could set that out in the order. That would allow schools to operate within a clear framework, and parents, governors and teachers—and under the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, local education authorities too—would be involved in the process.
Most noble Lords who spoke at Second Reading accepted that protection for children with special educational needs was fundamental. That is why it is enshrined in my amendment. If accepted, the amendments would cut out costly and time-consuming bidding processes. Schools would have greater ownership of their programmes and they would be openly accountable to children, to parents and to Ofsted through the inspection system.
Furthermore, there would be no need to time-limit projects. If they were successful, they would continue; if they were not, they would be dropped. They could be self-evaluated by the schools and they could be further externally evaluated by Ofsted. Therefore, I hope that the Minister will accept that a great deal of flexibility to explore ways of raising standards already exists in our schools.
On a more cynical note, I expect that most schools would argue that if there were less central control and bureaucracy and if a greater sum of their core funding arrived in the schools for their budgets, there would be considerably more opportunity, time and money to fund innovative, standard-raising projects.
Finally, there is a legislative tension—even, dare I say, contradiction?—which the Government have not addressed and I am afraid that they will have to do so. Under Section 5 of the School Standards and Framework Act 1998, LEAs have a duty to raise standards. In this Bill, local education authorities are not even statutory consultees. That matter will have to be addressed. I beg to move.
3.45 p.m.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I rise to support Amendment No. 1 moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, and to speak to Amendments Nos. 4, 7, 8 14, 15 and 157. In supporting Amendment No. 1, I not iced its similarities to an amendment moved by my honourable friend Mr Willis, Liberal Democrat spokesman for education in the other place. I congratulate the noble Baroness on making good use of that amendment.
I want to speak more generally about the grouping of amendments because it gets to the heart of the Bill. The Government justify the Bill in terms of promoting innovation and diversification in the education sector. The first chapter of the Bill is all about innovation, but at no point have we had a satisfactory explanation of what "innovation" means. The noble Lord, Lord Peston, and the noble Baroness, Lady David, will try to give us a definition of "innovation" in some of the amendments that they will be moving later, but it is

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extraordinarily unsatisfactory that when pressed in the other place the best that the Minister, Mr Timms, could come up with was that "innovation" meant doing something new.
I have been looking through the further explanations that we have received from the Government, in particular the guidance, about the power to innovate. I do not find in that any further explanation of "innovation". Innovation is therefore about doing something new, but I return to the point which arose again and again at Second Reading; that, surely, any good school has been doing it since kingdom come! We expect good schools to be innovative in any event.
That is at the root of a series of amendments which I and the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, have put forward. We believe that all schools should be innovative, not just the good schools. We intensely dislike the concept of earned autonomy and we do not believe that it should relate only to the schools which have time to put their proposals to the Secretary of State.
I know that there is a distinction between innovation and earned autonomy and I know that there is a degree to which those who have earned autonomy can act automatically. However, every school must apply to the Secretary of State. Moreover, Chapter 1 relating to innovation is extremely lengthy. When I read the guidance notes I was hit by the amount of time and energy which will have to be spent on examining and vetting each proposal for innovation.
The Liberal Democrats' starting point—I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, shares my feelings—is that good schools are continually innovating and finding flexibilities within the system. I echo the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, that within the education system there is little need to legislate to innovate because schools can do most of the things that they want to do.
After talking with head teachers and governors I know that an area in which they might like to innovate is that relating to the curriculum. They would like a little more flexibility. One also knows that many schools with confident heads are already being innovative and finding ways around the national curriculum.
However, some schools are perhaps slightly less innovative, or more diffident, and we want to encourage those. Our Amendment No. 15 is intended to encourage those schools to go forward. We should encourage not only the best schools, but also the average ones. Not only do the best need a push; very often it is actually the average schools that need a little extra encouragement.
Again, we reject the notion of earned autonomy. Head teachers do not necessarily want to be told what to do. For example, with regard to pay and conditions, when talking with school heads and governors, it has been made clear to me that they feel that they already have quite enough flexibility in that area. Many do not want to touch it because they feel that they are walking into an absolute minefield.
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On top of all that, it is truly absurd that the Department for Education and Skills should think that every application needs to be vetted by the department itself. It already has something of a reputation for overload. Its staff have far too much to do and thus are not always able to respond as quickly as they might. Perhaps the department has become overburdened with its own bureaucracy. If that is the case, then why take on even more? Again, the notion that even under earned autonomy, schools will have to apply to the department rather than utilising the devolved system already established in local education authorities is quite absurd. At least the LEAs could vet the applications being put forward.
The conclusion we reached was that if anything is needed in this area, it is a broad clause which would give all schools except for those in special measures leeway to deviate from the national curriculum to the tune of something in the order of 20 per cent of their time. The proposal about giving them a degree of flexibility as regards time came from an analogy with planning legislation. If people want to build an extension to their home which amounts to less than 20 per cent of the square footage of the original building, it can be done without having to seek specific planning permission. We thought that the same principle could be applied in the education sector. Thus one day of the school week could be devoted, if you like, to extra-curricular activities.
That principle explains the thrust of the proposed new clause set out in Amendment No. 15. Subsection (1) makes it clear that any proposals would still have to contribute towards raising educational standards. Subsection (2) would ensure a broad and balanced curriculum and limit projects to no more than 20 per cent of time spent away from the subjects specified in the national curriculum. Subsection (3) would allow the Secretary of State, or the National Assembly for Wales, to issue guidance rather than regulations on the general aims in this area. Subsection (4) states that consultation should be carried out with parents and local education authorities. They must be satisfied that the proposals are sound. However, I stress that a school would be required to consult with a local education authority. Ultimately, the authority would not be able to exercise a veto on any proposals.
Subsection (5) covers the procedures for the organisation that would have a veto over the proposals; that is, that they should be subject to the normal inspection procedures carried out by Ofsted. Although the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, said that any good school would monitor its own progress on new innovations, if a verification by Ofsted suggested that the innovations were not contributing to an improvement in school performance, they would have to be dropped. Lastly, subsection (6) specifies that any school in special measures should not be given such a flexibility. For such schools, it would be nose to the grindstone on the national curriculum—although some might argue that those are the very schools which need a degree of flexibility.

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Amendments Nos. 4, 7, 8 and 14 are paving amendments for the substantive new clause set out in Amendment No. 15. Amendment No. 4 would change the wording from "qualifying bodies" to "schools". Perhaps we ought to have included in this grouping Amendment No. 3, to which I shall speak later, because we seek to delete the words,
"in the opinion of the Secretary of State".
Thus Amendment No. 7 would make the end of Clause 1(1) read "England and Wales", making obsolete Clause 1(2), as set out in Amendment No. 8.
Clause 14 requires a little further explanation. It is needed because at present there is no definition of the concept of a "school term" in education legislation. Amendment No. 157 repeats precisely the same amendment, but I have tabled it at this point because I have been asked by Mr Chris Price, who is leading a commission that is considering the school year for the Local Government Association, to put in two amendments. The second amendment, to which I shall speak in due course, is Amendment No. 139. That would pave the way for a standardisation of the school year to be introduced at some stage if it is decided that we should move in that direction. We would then need to incorporate into education legislation a definition of the concept of a school term. Such a proposal would suit us well because in order to define the use of "one-fifth" of a school's time, we would need to be able to define exactly what would be the total time.
We feel very strongly that every school should have the chance to innovate. This new clause would provide a facility for schools to do so; not unreasonably, but within a considered framework.
Lord Rix: Having been absent from the House of Lords for the first three days of this week owing to a sudden family bereavement, I was unaware of the opening amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, until rather late in the day when I took my place in the Committee. I apologise for that.
I feel that I must give Amendment No. 1 my full support, in particular subsection (5). The Marshalled List contains many amendments referring to special educational needs and disability. How appropriate, therefore, to insert such a supportive clause right at the beginning of the Bill. It is but a harbinger of things to come. I hope that the Minister will be minded to offer a favourable response.
Baroness Perry of Southwark: I, too, have added my name to the amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp of Guildford. However, I should also like to offer my strong support for the amendment moved by my noble friend Lady Blatch. I shall not repeat all the points made so strongly by both noble Baronesses, rather I wish simply to underline my particular concern that we should not create a two-tier system of schools. Some schools might be rewarded with a proposal which in reality is simply plain, good educational practice. Other schools, however, which might already be doing less well, would not be allowed such flexibility. Please let us have the right to
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experiment and innovate within very carefully defined limits made available to all schools, except perhaps those in special measures.
Secondly, it is important to put on to the face of the Bill that a broad and balanced curriculum must be preserved. It is vital that that concept is maintained. A good many head teachers in the system have their own hobby-horses and would like to do things differently, not least in secondary schools. Some feel strongly that less able or less motivated children should be given rather boring and tedious technical and practical work, with little exposure to academic subjects at which, given the opportunity, they might excel if they happen to be late developers. The concept of a broad and balanced curriculum is one which has been hard fought for over the past generation or so of teachers and schools. It is terribly important to retain it by writing it into the Bill.
We felt that to allow something in the order of one-fifth of school time to be used for experiment was acceptable, but what is done must fall within the concept of the broad and balanced curriculum. Thus the main amendment in this grouping would allow schools to be innovative and to give certain children different kinds of experiences outwith the constraints of the national curriculum.
Finally, I hope that any innovations will be closely monitored to ensure that they really do raise standards. We have all seen people riding high on their hobby-horses, promoting what at the time seemed to be frightfully good ideas. Those people become very enthusiastic; they go to conferences and get very excited about the notion. Ultimately, however, no one asks the question: were the children performing better and producing better work as a result of the introduction of the new idea? We do not want an education service that is full of gimmicks. We want one that genuinely provides ever-increasing high standards for all school children.
4 p.m.
Baroness Walmsley: I support this group of amendments and wish to say something about teachers as professionals. The Government have said that they respect teachers as professionals and want: to encourage them to behave as such, and they have introduced a number of initiatives to help teachers to develop their professionalism.
One of the criteria of a professional is someone whose judgment can be trusted in his or her field of expertise. A second criterion is someone who will keep up with the latest research and the cutting edge of best practice in that field. What nonsense it would be, therefore, to tell teachers that they are professionals and then to tell some of them that they cannot innovate and to tell others that they have to ask a lot of other people before they can do so.
All professionals innovate and conscientiously evaluate the results of those innovations in the interests of the people that they serve. For example, at the moment my dentist is evaluating a new piece of equipment for blasting my teeth with very fine

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bicarbonate of soda. In that kind of spirit, teachers are innovating all the time. It is important that all teachers should get the opportunity—unless there is a very good reason why they should not—to introduce at least 20 per cent innovation into the curriculum.
For those reasons and many others, I support in particular substantive Amendment No. 15, which has been brought forward by my noble friend Lady Sharp of Guildford, and the paving amendments leading up to it.
Lord Dearing: I declare an interest as a vice-president of the Local Government Association and as the chairman of a committee that recently advised the Church of England on its schools. In commenting, I am assuming that Clause 2, in particular, applies to all schools, not only successful schools. That is important.
I support the thrust of the comments that have been made. I cannot see that it is an effective way of doing business for a government department at the centre to take individual decisions for 20,000 schools about which it knows nothing. That is not an effective means of decision taking. If it is to be done conscientiously it will take an army—and I am not convinced that the army will do it well.
I understand, and engage with, the Government in saying that they want to free up the process more. If I were a Minister, I would be worried about what the blighters might do if the whole 22,000 were let loose with a blanket authority. I would want a handle to be kept on it—but not by me at the centre of the 22,000.
Mention has been made of local education authorities. They know these schools—it is their business to know these schools. It would make good management sense to use the expertise of LEAs and, in the case of church schools, the diocesan boards of education. They should be consulted, certainly, and perhaps they should initially approve proposals, because I am scared about what might happen if this is let loose and the final power is with the governing body. I would want to keep a handle on it.
But I urge the Government to think again about how they can create the right balance between their view of "We must keep a grip on every decision" and letting 22,000 flowers bloom. I urge the Government to think again on that particular point.
As to Clause 6, which concerns the curriculum and the issue of whether all schools or only successful schools should be allowed to innovate, we shall come to that on another occasion.
Lord Pilkington of Oxenford: There has been a long tradition in English education, stretching back almost to the beginning of the last century, that local education authorities and governing bodies run schools. The Department of Education and the old Board of Education were never fitted to take the roles of a Napoleonic education system. Suddenly, the Government have decided to change things. I endorse what the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, said. Without
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making any nasty criticisms, I do not believe that the department has a tradition of doing this. Nor would I say that the model that exists in France, where it has been done, is necessarily ideal. In common with the noble Baronesses, Lady Sharp and Lady Perry, and many others—and a former chief inspector, Lord knows—I urge the Government to think again. They are biting off a bigger cake than they can chew. They will rue it in the end.
Lord Roberts of Conwy: I ask the Minister to ensure that, in her reply to the debate, she indicates exactly what the Government have in mind by way of innovation. We are all in favour of innovation in principle. We know that innovation does take place in schools. But clearly the Government have got something very particular in mind when they introduce a clause of this kind, which amounts to a power to facilitate innovation. In all the discussions we have had so far on this particular chapter of the Bill, the mystery remains of what exactly the Government have in mind by way of their hope for innovation. What kind of innovation do they expect?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: This has been an interesting beginning to the first day in Committee. Noble Lords have raised some interesting questions, which I shall attempt to address. Reference has also been made to later amendments.
The clause is at the heart of our attempt to change the conditions under which schools and local education authorities can lead our education system. The noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, has rightly pointed out—as, indeed, have other noble Lords—that there are many ways in which schools can innovate. I am most grateful to the noble Baroness for putting some of those on the record. But the issue for us is much deeper. We believe that schools and local education authorities are in the best position—because we are able to understand what they are doing—to start looking at ways in which they can move education forward.
Noble Lords have asked me to be specific. I shall try to be, but I shall inevitably refer to a couple of retrospective ideas. The purpose behind the clause is to say that we believe that there are ways in which schools are beginning to innovate and ways in which they would like to innovate but do not believe that they can because of legislation. The noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, said that schools can get round the national curriculum. That, in a sense, raises the issue; it is about schools which have got round it.
An example I have used before in your Lordships' House concerns the ability of schools to work more closely with further education and to look at workplace learning. We discovered that schools were doing this, but doing it despite the legislation. A more recent example—we are now in the later stages of the Bill—comes from my own experience of visiting a school not far from here. The head teacher said, "We were delighted to see that the childcare potential is now being recognised in this Bill because for me, as a head teacher, I have long wanted to do something that

811
brought in the children and their families earlier to my school, specifically because I believe it would raise standards. But of course I could not do it".
Different schools will have different ideas. That is the purpose of the clause. I cannot give the Committee a list of what schools may want to do. If we knew what they wanted to do specifically, and we could see the standard-raising effect, it would be in the Bill. This is simply about enabling schools to come forward with their ideas.
We wish to put on record that we welcome the fact that schools can innovate. Nothing in the Bill affects the ability of schools to innovate as they already do, as noble Lords have described. The Bill applies only where schools are prevented from doing so because of legislation. In no way will the Bill attack the freedoms that schools have already.
In theory, Amendment No. 1 would do away with the Secretary of State's role of checking and approving innovative projects. The effect would be that no statutory instrument would be placed, and that, in turn, would mean that there was no public record of the changes made. We believe that there should be accountability and the opportunity for parliamentary scrutiny of the use of this power through the placing of statutory instruments. That is secured clearly by giving the role of making statutory instruments to the Secretary of State.
In addition, without the involvement of the Secretary of State, schools and LEAs would in theory be free to change the law at will. It is essential that every proposal under the power to innovate receives scrutiny in the light of the best professional advice.
Without the Secretary of State's involvement, we lose the bigger picture. It would be wrong to allow individual schools to determine what proposals they believe would benefit their pupils without regard to the effect on neighbouring schools and LEAs. Given the breadth of these powers, we believe that it is vital that we retain this broader view.
The Secretary of State also provides protection for the vulnerable. The noble Lord, Lord Rix, and I will no doubt debate these issues in more detail, as will other noble Lords. I want to be clear that there are no circumstances in which we would want to approve any project that weakens the position of the vulnerable. Indeed, in determining whether or not a proposal raises standards, the Secretary of State will have regard to the need to raise standards for all children, including those with special educational needs.
But we should also be clear that there is no reason why any innovative project from a school or from a local education authority would be any less likely to benefit children with special educational needs. Indeed, I very much hope that these proposals will lead to innovation for children with special educational needs. We should be encouraging any project that might lead to higher educational standards for this group of pupils.
I turn to Amendment No. 15. As it stands, it would not allow schools or local education authorities to make any exemption from legislation. It would merely
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allow them to pursue innovative projects within the confines of existing law. As I have said, they are already able to do this and we would, of course, encourage them to do it.
The noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, referred to the issue of "four-fifths of the time". Within her amendment that is a key part. There is no restriction on time in the national curriculum. So long as schools complete the programmes of study, they can take as long or as little time as they like and set the school day or term that they consider appropriate for their pupils.
Perhaps I may take this opportunity to reassure the noble Baroness that we have addressed other points in the amendment. Guidance on the power to innovate will be made available to all schools and LEAs. I have placed a draft version of the document in the Library, but perhaps I may summarise its key points.
The guidance currently covers eligibility, exemptions available, consultation criteria against which applications will be judged, the approval of proposals and the evaluation of projects. While we have no preconceived ideas about the sort of exemptions applicants would wish to seek, the Secretary of State would expect all schools applying for such freedom to demonstrate that they will continue to deliver a broad and balanced curriculum.
Applicants are also required to consult those who are likely to be affected by the proposal. Where a school is the applicant, we would expect that to include the local education authority, as well as all those involved in the school, including parents and pupils, and other relevant parties.
Schools will continue to be subject to Ofsted inspections and the accountability framework. Furthermore, they will be required to conduct their own evaluation of their project. We do not intend to rule out schools in special measures from the exemptions, as they are as entitled as any other school to attempt to raise standards and improve education. However, the Secretary of State will be able to make judgments on individual cases.
That brings me back to my main point; namely, the absolute importance of the Secretary of State's role in the process and in safeguarding standards. Amendment No. 4 is at odds with our view that the LEA has a vital part to play and should be consulted whenever a school puts forward a proposal. I appreciate what the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, has said about the paving nature of some of the amendments, but to deal with the amendment specifically, we believe that LEAs themselves and education action zones should be able to come forward with proposals.
LEAs undoubtedly have a strategic role in innovation, but they also have a direct track record of success in this field. For example, in working with education action zones, in delivering literacy and numeracy strategies, and in turning round schools in special measures, LEAs have demonstrated their potential to have a real impact and make a real difference to standards in their schools.

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I want LEAs to be able to build on that experience and, where they have new ideas for innovative ways of raising standards in schools, to be able to come forward with proposals. Their role may be particularly important for projects involving collaboration between schools, where the LEA will be best placed to make that work. I can see no reason, therefore, to exclude other qualifying bodies from the powers under Chapter 1 if they can assist schools in innovating to raise standards. I hope, therefore, that the noble Baroness will not press the amendment.
Amendments Nos. 7 and 8 concern the role of the Secretary of State in relation to Wales. The Committee will not be surprised that I am concerned that the spirit of the amendment goes against the spirit of the devolution settlement, under which the National Assembly for Wales has devolved authority for most educational matters apart from determining teachers' pay and conditions.
It would seem strange on the face of it if, where a proposal and the power to innovate relate to a matter for which the National Assembly had devolved responsibility, the National Assembly was not allowed to determine whether it believed it would lead to higher educational standards for children in Wales.
Indeed, under the amendment the National Assembly would still be required to lay an order, but would be able to do so only if, in the opinion of the Secretary of State, a proposal would raise the educational standards for children in England and in Wales. The amendment would also extend the test of a proposal in both England and Wales by requiring that a proposal contribute to the educational standards of pupils in both countries. Naturally, we would hope that proposals would have the potential to be applied more widely both in England and in Wales, but there may be proposals that relate specifically to the circumstances of schools in England or in Wales. I believe that this is a sensible approach to take and that it is in line with the spirit of the devolution settlement.
I now turn to Amendments Nos. 14 and 157. Their effect would be to define the word "term" in two places in the Bill. I have listened to the arguments carefully, but remain convinced that it is not necessary to include such a definition in the Bill. I, too, am aware of what Mr Price has been doing, and we have been in discussion both with him and with the Local Government Association.
The word "term" has a clear, ordinary meaning in common usage which will determine its interpretation in the Bill and which is in line with the interpretation sought by the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp. Clause 1 includes a number of definitions which are useful for ensuring that this chapter of the Bill can be understood. The word "term", however, does not appear in this chapter, so this definition would not mean anything in this particular context.
The amendment to Clause 37 would apply the definition to the responsibility to determine term dates in Clause 31. However, Clause 31 sets out not only a
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responsibility to determine term dates, but also a responsibility to determine the dates of holidays. It follows that there is a clear duty to determine the dates of half-term holidays and any faith or occasional days. Bank holidays are, of course, determined nationally under separate arrangements, and rights in relation to elections—a topical subject—are determined under separation arrangements relating to representation of the people.
I am clear, therefore, that there is no gap. I am happy to place on record our belief that there is no lack of clarity in this legislation. The duties to determine when children should and should not be at school are clear. This should not cause any problems for local education authorities or for schools. I hope that that assures the noble Baroness that the position is as she would like it to be, and that her amendments are therefore unnecessary.
I believe that the power to innovate offers an exciting opportunity for schools and LEAs to come forward with new ideas to raise standards. I hope that with the reassurances I have given, together with the draft guidance that I have circulated, noble Lords will feel able not to press their amendments.
4.15 p.m.
Baroness Blatch: I am afraid that I am even more concerned about the Bill as a result of the Minister's response. She made no reference to a central question posed by myself and many other speakers. Where will the civil servants come from? Who will monitor and evaluate every single application? Who will deal with the minutiae? This will either be done properly, or it will be done in a cursory way. It will be time-consuming—I would argue that it will be time-wasteful—and it will be very costly. The Minister made no mention whatever of those matters.
The Minister said that these clauses were at the heart of the debate. We all agree about the aim of the early clauses of the Bill; namely, that schools should be free to innovate. We accept the importance of that. The best schools do it as a matter of course. A school is a dynamic; it should constantly seek ways to raise standards. There is no argument about that. That is the heart of the debate—not the civil servants, the bureaucracy or the minutiae of a terribly bureaucratic system, but the fact that we want to support schools in their efforts to innovate in order to raise standards.
The Minister went on to say that the issue was much deeper, but there was no depth in any of the arguments that she used to counter much of what we said. She argued that schools should be free to work more closely with further education. I do not know where the Minister has been, but the schools that I know already do that. There has been a great deal of collaboration with FE. In fact, schools in my area also work with higher education through masterclasses for bright children, visiting professors coming to schools and children visiting the universities. Collaboration with further and higher education does not need to be exempt from regulation.

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The Minister also talked about pre-five education. Schools up and down the land are working with playgroups, mother and toddler groups and nursery classes in a more formal and integral part of the school system. I do not understand what the problem is there. In the middle of all that, the Minister said that she could not give precise examples. I am not sure that there are any. We have touched on those areas in which we think that legislation could be relaxed and where some freedom should be given to schools. The Minister's arguments do not stand up against the points that we have made.
What legislation stands in the way of schools working with FE? What legislation stands in the way of them working with higher education? We know that we have legislation coming on 14 to 19 education, which will make more formal arrangements for children to partake of mainstream education both in mainstream schools and with further education. Those issues will be dealt with in that legislation. The Minister does not have a strong argument on that point.
The Minister went on to say that there should be accountability. Schools live in a goldfish bowl these days. They are accountable. A great deal of information is put into the public domain about the performance of schools. They are responsible to their governors and their parents. They have annual meetings and periodic statutory consultation processes. As the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, said, the local education authority also knows a great deal about its local schools. More formally, schools are also highly accountable through the Ofsted system. The argument about accountability will not wash.
I have no reason to doubt the noble Baroness when she says that the Government believe in protection for the vulnerable, particularly for those with special educational needs, because I know that she means it. That is such a fundamental point that it has to be written on the face of the Bill. I am sure that many noble Lords feel strongly about that and will wish to return to the issue.
The answer to every school's prayer is that the Government are going to send them guidance. Our schools receive guidance by the hour. Our head teachers are up to saturation point. Every day when they pick up the bundle of post from behind the door, their head hangs low, because they should be using their energy and all the time at their disposal to get on with the business of teaching and helping to develop their young people in their classrooms, but instead they have to read missives from the DfEE. I cannot believe that that is put forward as a serious argument against our proposals.
The noble Baroness also said that where the school was the applicant, we would expect it to include the LEA. I have some concerns about the role that the LEA would play, but it is right that it should be informed and consulted. I am more worried about the suggestion that the LEA should be the determining factor. We shall come to that on later amendments.
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The Minister has not mentioned staffing at the department or the costs of such a process and how it works. She went on to talk about education action zones. They are innovative by nature. That is why they were set up—to go outside mainstream education and explore ways of raising standards, particularly in the inner cities, although that has been extended to rural areas now. Again, I do not understand why such schools need to move outside the existing legislation.
The Minister also talked about collaboration between schools. What is there in law to stop that? My air of absolute frustration may have been detected in my response to the Minister's comments on the amendments. All I can say is that we should free up schools. That does not mean schools doing as they like, as the Minister argued. We should set the framework within which they can explore and innovate with the aim of raising standards for their children. We should allow them to work with governors and parents, constantly exploring ways to raise standards. There is no worry about a repeat of William Tyndale. It could not happen today. Too much is known about what goes on in schools. They live in a goldfish bowl and are openly accountable. Twenty years ago, the department boasted about the secret garden. I remember the daily battle in the department about control. Let the reins go. Set the framework, give the professionals their head and let them get on with it. Self-evaluation, Ofsted and public information are all there as a constraint on schools doing what they like, to use the Minister's words.
I do not remember the Minister being particularly critical of the detail of my amendment, although I shall have to read her comments. That we shall return to the issue is not in doubt. The Minister made some specific comments about the amendments of the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp. I have sympathy with all those amendments, but I do not want to deny the noble Baroness the opportunity to come back and counter the Minister's remarks if she wishes to do so. I hope that the Minister will think again about putting in place a labyrinthine system that is second nature to the department, because it will simply debilitate the energy and resources of people who have better things to do. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 1 [Purpose and interpretation of Chapter 1]:
Baroness Walmsleymoved Amendment No. 2:
Page 1, line 6, at beginning insert "Subject to subsection (1A) below,"
The noble Baroness said: I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 9, 21 and 23. The amendments would ensure that the use of new powers by schools was subject to consultation with local education authorities. The Bill allows maintained schools to apply directly to the Secretary of State for exemption from any requirement of education legislation, for example on the curriculum, that is not otherwise provided for in Chapter 2 of Part 1. Clause 4 does not even require the LEA to be consulted.

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Local councils have a strategic role to play in promoting and maintaining innovation. The amendments would ensure that local councils were recognised on the face of the Bill by making them statutory consultees when the Secretary of State or the National Assembly for Wales make an order to suspend statutory requirements. That would ensure that one school could not innovate at the expense of other schools in the area without the agreement of the local authority. The amendments would ensure that the power to innovate was translated into greater freedoms and flexibilities for councils as well as for schools, drawing LEAs into the innovation agenda.
Local authorities already have a track record in this field, so it is illogical to exclude them from what we hope will be some of the most exciting advances in educational standards in the future. For example, education action zones, the delivery of literacy and numeracy strategies and the turnaround of schools in special measures are all ways in which local councils have already taken a lead and made a difference in raising standards at local level.
Already seven councils have piloted innovative and creative new projects to increase community involvement in schools. These include the establishment of rural academies and the co-location of a range of facilities serving the wider community on the school site.
These projects illustrate how councils can respond to the innovation challenge and use the opportunities to raise educational standards, particularly by joining up education and other council responsibilities. It would be wrong to suggest that local authorities would stand in the way of effective innovation. Since the Second World War, local government has led the main examples of innovation, such as the delegation of resources to schools, parental rights, delegation of staffing to schools, community education, middle schools and comprehensive education.
Today of all days—the day of the local elections—noble Lords of all parties are aware of how hard it can be to persuade high-quality, busy people to devote their time to the often thankless task of public service. How foolish it would be, therefore, to take away from them the right to be involved in the exciting and stimulating decisions that are ahead when, one hopes, an improved version of this Bill eventually becomes law. Indeed, it would be wrong not to consult LEAs when they retain residual responsibility for school improvement. Section 5 of the School Standards and Framework Act 1998 gives LEAs a duty to promote high standards in the education of children. Part 6 of the Bill emphasises LEAs' duty to ensure that the national curriculum is taught. Therefore, LEAs must be involved in innovation through consultation.
The Government have said much about deregulation in the Bill. However, shifting primary legislation to regulations made by secondary legislation is not deregulation. Deregulation occurs only when primary legislation sets out the principles and allows local bodies, schools and LEAs to get on and do the job.
4.30 p.m.
Baroness Blatch: As I said in speaking to the first group of amendments, I believe in the importance of letting local authorities know precisely what is going on in their areas, as that might have a very real impact on the provision that they make.
I tabled Amendment No. 24, which is in this group, to insert a new paragraph on page 3. The provision is concerned with applications for orders under Clause 2. We know that the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, is with us at least in spirit on the provision. In speaking to Amendment No. 1, she said that the Liberal Democrats "would expect" such consultation to occur. However, I think that we need rather stronger provision, and there is a strong case for including it in the Bill. LEAs should be statutory consultees. There is, as I said, a tension in regard to the legal position. In law, LEAs have a responsibility to raise standards, whereas the Bill does not even require that they be statutory consultees. I think that there is a good argument for accepting the amendments.
Lord Dearing: I rise very briefly to support the preceding arguments. I believe that good chief education officers have a great deal to contribute to the development of thinking in schools. If they have a statutory right to be consulted, they can contribute without hindering. I hope that the Government will feel able to respond to the amendments.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: The powers in this clause are intended to ensure that we are able to support schools and LEAs with innovative ideas that could not otherwise be implemented. The powers are in no way intended to increase or centralise power in the Secretary of State's hands. As Members of the Committee will realise, the powers can be used only to respond to the innovative standards-raising proposals put forward by schools and LEAs.
The Secretary of State of course will make an informed decision as to whether to approve proposals on the basis of information provided by the applicant, which will include the outcome of consultation with local bodies. My right honourable friend the Minister for School Standards has already provided in another place an assurance that guidance issued under Clause 4(2) should refer to the need for the consultation to include the LEA when a school, and not the LEA, is the applicant. I am happy to repeat that assurance. Indeed, I have now made available in the Library of the House an outline draft of this guidance. Paragraph 10, on page 2, states:
"In all cases where a school is the applicant we would expect them to have consulted their own LEA … If an LEA is itself the applicant neighbouring LEAs should be consulted where the proposal is likely to have a wider impact than the LEA itself".
Baroness Blatch: The Minister seems to be saying that the department will always expect applicants to have consulted the LEA. Some applicants, however, may not have done so. Would it not be fairer to include the requirement in legislation, rather than to throw back those applications with the statement that

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consultation is expected? Maintained schools in local authority areas will almost never be able to begin the process without letting the local authority know. Why not make the requirement part of the process? The Minister seems to lump LEAs with every other body. One of those bodies could be a group of local shops. Indeed, there may even be a case for informing local tradesmen of certain matters, such as when children are taken out of school for educational purposes. LEAs are a fairly important part of the process. This group of amendments proposes only that they should be informed.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I agree with the noble Baroness that they are extremely important, just as parents, pupils and teachers are extremely important to schools. Although the consultation requirement is not included in primary legislation, I think that the statutory guidance provides considerable reassurance. However, at this stage, I am fully prepared to consider the point further. On that basis, I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Walmsley: I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Sharp of Guildfordmoved Amendment No. 3:
Page line 6, after "to" insert "promote and"
The noble Baroness said: In moving Amendment No. 3, I shall also speak to Amendment No. 5. Clause 1 states:
"The purpose of this Chapter is to facilitate the implementation by qualifying bodies of innovative projects".
Amendment No. 3 would change that to read, "to promote and facilitate" implementation.
"Facilitate" is a rather neutral and passive word. In replying to our debate on the overall innovation issue, the Minister said that we wanted to be positive and to enable schools to innovate and improve performance. In that context, the word "promote" is as suitable as the word "facilitate". We believe that it is important to be positive and to promote innovation. We should encourage schools to innovate, and we should say so right at the beginning of the Bill.
Amendment No. 5 is perhaps the more substantive one. In replying on my Amendment No. 4, the Minister seemed to imply that I was forgetting about devolution. Perhaps I should have referred to Amendment No. 5 with Amendment No. 4, as the former removes the Secretary of State from subsection (1)(a) completely. We return to the issue of whether the Secretary of State really has to approve each project. The fact is that the department cannot micro-manage these matters. In replying to me, the Minister said that public scrutiny is not only vital but must be put on the record. She also said that the proposals will be in guidance which will have to be approved by
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Parliament. Will every proposal have to be laid before Parliament? The degree of centralisation involved in all of this seems absurd.
The Minister went on to say that it would be wrong for individual schools to determine what innovation they think would be in their interests. But what on earth does the department know about neighbourhood schools and what the people in those neighbourhoods think? It is much more important that schools consult parents, local neighbourhoods and local education authorities. The reference in Clause 1 to the opinion of the Secretary of State demonstrates the extent of centralisation and micro-management, and that reference is unnecessary. Indeed, the Minister would be as hard-pressed as anyone else to cite one example of innovation that has not already been dealt with in legislation. This comes back to what I said on Second Reading; namely, that most of the Bill is unnecessary and a waste of parliamentary time when there are other important matters that we ought to discuss. Nevertheless, the Government have given the Bill to us with 210 clauses and 22 schedules and we shall jolly well make them pay for it!
It is absurd that the Secretary of State has to have an opinion on each individual proposal. We believe that that should be eliminated from the face of the Bill. I beg to move.
Baroness Perry of Southwark: I briefly reinforce what has been said about Amendment No. 5. There is a fundamental disagreement between what the Government propose and what we are trying to say. The Government propose micro-management on the part of the Secretary of State or people in the department—one hopes with advice from Ofsted—as regards approving or disapproving every single scheme which is submitted. Our amendments suggest that the Secretary of State shall lay down the things which schools can do, not in the form of a detailed list but in terms of the appropriate objectives of innovation. Several Members of the Committee suggested that the Secretary of State should lay down the things which schools cannot do such as remove provision for children with special needs. But if the Secretary of State were to lay down the objectives of innovation and the things which schools could not do, why not just let them get on with it?
Baroness Blatch: I add to the comments of my noble friend. We are back to the fundamental point; that is, that the man in Whitehall does not know best as regards determining the way forward for every school in the country. However, we are in Committee and we are having to table "what if" amendments. If neither Amendment No. 1 nor Amendment No. 15—those are fundamental amendments—is accepted, what then? If Amendment No. 5, which seeks to delete the words,
"in the opinion of the Secretary of State",
were successful, it is my view—I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, agrees with me—that a measure such as that contained in Amendments Nos. 1 or 15 would have to be put in its place. Clearly there would have to be some framework within which

821
schools would work. My difficulty is the following. I should like to support the amendment as we do not believe that the opinion of the Secretary of State should prevail. However, if the Government have their way and the scheme is implemented in the way that the Government would like, I should like to add the words "or the Chief Inspector" as that would lessen the workload of the Secretary of State and his department and also the chief inspector is rather better informed about every school in the land. For some time the chief inspector through Ofsted has on a regular basis visited every single maintained school. I believe that the chief inspector is better equipped to understand the matters that we are discussing. If one allowed the chief inspector under certain criteria automatically to give schools the right to innovate that would lessen the incredible workload that will be put in train by the Bill.
If the Minister says that the Government would expect the Secretary of State to liaise with the chief inspector in order to be informed about schools, that would simply compound the system about which we have heard and which we understand the Bill proposes. As I say, I should like to support the removal of the words,
"in the opinion of the Secretary of State",
but, if that is not possible, my Amendment No. 6, which refers to the chief inspector, would at least be helpful.
4.45 p.m.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, for telling me that I shall pay for the Bill. It is an interesting first Bill for me to take through all its stages. The Committee is being indulgent in trying to ensure that I address all the questions that are raised.
As we are back at the heart of the Bill I make two or three comments by way of an overview. First, I gave retrospective examples. I believe that I said that they were retrospective. The purpose of the power is to seek projects of which we are not yet aware. I believe that the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, said that we should lay down what schools cannot do. However, it is precisely in the area of what schools cannot do that we are trying to look for new ideas. We have an education system of which all Members of the Chamber are rightly proud but we also know that it does not perform as well as it might with all our children. Within that system we seek to enable the people who know our children—teachers and local education authorities—to suggest ways in which they believe our legislation could get in the way of supporting those children. That does not detract from all the existing innovative ways in which schools can develop. As I said, the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, referred to many of those. We do not seek in any way to constrain what schools can do already. We simply seek to add something extra. We seek to say to schools and to local education authorities, "If, in the course of looking at
822
how best you can serve our children, you say to us, 'We think that we have something special which is worth exploring'"—
Baroness Blatch: I intervene as this is Committee stage and we shall have no other opportunity to be iterative. The noble Baroness said that we were addressing the heart of the Bill. However, she has just said that the Government are merely trying to introduce more flexibility in case there is something they have not thought of. She also said that she could not think of an example of that. If the noble Baroness cannot think of an example—I gave a long but not exhaustive list of ways in which schools can innovate—what on earth is the point of all this and why is such a strong defence—almost a stone wall—being mounted against what I regard as sensible ideas to allow innovation to take place and to set schools free to innovate without this absolutely strapped around system of bureaucracy?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: This is not a stone wall. I am trying to explain that there are issues connected with the way in which we want our schools to take forward education. We want to enable them to think more fully about such matters. The measure is at the heart of the Bill. We are not trying to do anything other than allow schools and local education authorities the right to be creative and the right to come to us to seek change because we believe fundamentally that change should be led by our schools and local education authorities. That is the opposite of a centralising approach.
I turn to the specific amendments before us. I turn first to Amendment No. 3. By introducing the Bill—and giving the Secretary of State the power to respond to schools and LEAs—we have already demonstrated our commitment to promoting as well as facilitating innovation. The promotion of innovation is an aim that the Government share and the Bill in its very essence provides for it.
But to add the words proposed in Amendment No. 3 would if anything increase the role of the Secretary of State in the process. At present, the power is intended merely to allow the Secretary of State to respond to proposals from schools and not to initiate her own. The current balance between the role of the Secretary of State in responding to proposals and schools or LEAs in coming forward with them rightly places the emphasis on promoting innovation at a school or a local education authority level so it is in the hands of those who know what works best.
Of course, we want to do whatever we can to support schools and local education authorities in coming forward with innovative proposals. We decided to set up the new innovation unit which will be established later this year. We hope that that will be important in creating the right climate for innovation and in supporting teachers to develop and share their best ideas. Therefore, I can reassure the noble Baroness that we are at one in believing that the Government should promote innovation. I reassure

823
her that we shall be doing so. I hope that she will agree that it is not necessary in the context of this clause to change the legislation in order to secure that result.
Given the unintended consequences of the amendment and the reassurances that I have given about the Government's commitment to support and encourage schools and local education authorities in coming forward with proposals, I hope that the noble Baroness will agree to withdraw Amendment No. 3.
I turn to Amendment No. 5. I agree with the noble Baroness that innovation in our schools should not be the preserve of the Secretary of State. Schools are and will continue to be free to innovate within the law in all that they do, without any involvement from the Secretary of State or any other central body. I reassure her that this chapter in no way reduces schools' and LEAs' existing scope to innovate. Only when such innovation is prevented or hindered by provisions in education legislation would it be necessary for schools to apply under the power to innovate.
However, if we are to have confidence in our ability to respond effectively to schools and LEAs in a wide range of circumstances, the breadth of the power is necessary. What we are creating is a power to enable the Secretary of State to respond to schools and LEAs where their proposals require the temporary "disapplication" of legislation to work. That is not about centralising power in the Secretary of State's hands. If we are going to give schools and LEAs the freedom to pilot new ways of raising standards, there must be some safeguards and some parliamentary process to ensure that projects that are put forward will contribute to the raising of educational standards. In that context, it is important that schools know the law.
I therefore believe that the role of the Secretary of State is absolutely essential. The Secretary of State must be able to make a judgment before making an order that. in her opinion, in light of all the available evidence and, where necessary, following consultation with the chief inspector—I shall discuss that later—a project will contribute to the raising of educational standards.
As I have already said, the Secretary of State's opinion also provides an additional protection for vulnerable children and means that she would not make any order where she believed that that would be detrimental to the interests of those children. The proposal is not about the Secretary of State acting on her own or ignoring the views of schools and LEAs. But I believe that it is essential that every proposal receives independent scrutiny in the light of the best available professional advice.
While I therefore do not believe that removing the opinion of the Secretary of State would be helpful, I am ready to discuss whether there may be other helpful ways of strengthening the protections that are already in place in the legislation. I hope that in the light of that, the noble Baroness will not press the amendment.
I turn to Amendment No. 6. Clause 2(3) already requires the Secretary of State to consult the chief inspector before making an order. I would expect the Secretary of State to make full use of the chief
824
inspector's expertise—the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, suggested this—where appropriate, in considering proposals from schools and LEAs. However, it is important that we are clear about the fact that it must be the Secretary of State who lays an order. We must not be in a position where the law is in doubt in relation to any school. There must be a clear statement that is publicly available to all that makes clear each individual's rights and duties. That means that whenever an exemption is granted, a statutory instrument must be made. That is quite clearly a role for the Secretary of State in relation to England and for the National Assembly for Wales in relation to Wales.
I also believe that there should be accountability and the opportunity for parliamentary scrutiny of those statutory instruments. That is again clearly secured by giving the role of making the statutory instrument to the Secretary of State or the National Assembly for Wales.
Given those arguments, I hope that Members of the Committee will accept that the Secretary of State must be the one to lay an order. It would be strange to have an alternative decision-maker at that stage and it might involve questioning the role of Ofsted. Of course I agree with the noble Baroness that the Secretary of State should, wherever necessary, take into account the chief inspector's views. But I am not sure of the benefit of adding him as an alternative source of opinion prior to the final exercise of discretion. I therefore hope that the noble Baroness will not press the amendment.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I cannot say that I am totally convinced by the Minister's arguments. For example, as regards using the word "promote", she said, "Yes, of course we are promoting innovation; that is what we are about". However, she also said that she does not want that in the Bill because it would involve centralising. Why? Perhaps it was lucky that the amendments were grouped; at first I did not think so. That is precisely why we want to remove from a later subsection the power involving the opinion of the Secretary of State. We feel that the concept of promoting is more positive but we do not want the Secretary of State to feel that she should do the promoting. We feel that promotion needs to be in the general atmosphere and that it should devolve downwards. We have already argued that it is up to each individual school to innovate.
Nor do I buy the argument that the Secretary of State needs to have the confidence to respond. The argument was that the Secretary of State needs that power in order to protect the vulnerable. However, the Bill's provisions in that regard are incredible. Clause 2(1)(a) refers to,
"conferring on the applicant exemption from any requirement imposed by education legislation".
I stress the phrase, "any requirement". If someone suggested that we should suspend special educational needs legislation, we should not of course do so. That is why we need the opinion of the Secretary of State. We come back to the central question.

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When one talks to heads and principals of colleges, the one point about which they want a little flexibility is in relation to the national curriculum. That is one reason why the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, and I tabled Amendment No. 15. That is the one area in which heads and principals feel constrained. One might say that they do not need to feel constrained, but there is a degree of such a feeling. Perhaps during our discussion on the Bill we can pass on the message, "You need not feel constrained. You can go off and, so long as you can fulfil the requirements, spend your time doing anything else". That would be splendid. However, it underlines the general feeling that we do not need such legislation.
I am not convinced by the Minister's arguments. I shall read her speech very carefully and we shall probably return to these issues on Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 4 and 5 not moved.]
Baroness Blatchmoved Amendment No. 6:
Page 1, line 8, after "State" insert "or the Chief Inspector"
The noble Baroness said: I want to respond to a point that the Minister made about the amendment. She said what I feared—and, in fact, what I predicted—she would say; that is, that the chief inspector will of course be consulted. That will duplicate all of the efforts. We will have the Secretary of State, who does not know all of the schools locally, speaking to the chief inspector, who does know all of the schools locally. If the chief inspector can say—this is consistent with the proposed wording—that a proposition from a school or an applicant contributes to the raising of educational standards, that should be the end of the matter. That should not be second-guessed by the Secretary of State, although technically it would be. The order would be laid technically because it is simply a matter of officials laying the order in the House.
I am going to test the Government's nerve on this matter. I wish to test the opinion of the House.
4.57 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 6) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 75; Not-Contents, 133.

Division No. 1

CONTENTS

Anelay of St Johns, B.

Campbell of Alloway, L.

Ashcroft, L.

Campbell of Croy, L.

Astor of Hever, L.

Carnegy of Lour, B.

Baker of Dorking, L.

Chadlington, L.

Biffen, L.

Clark of Kempston, L.

Blatch, B.

Colwyn, L.

Boardman, L.

Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]

Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.

Cox, B.

Brougham and Vaux, L.

Craigavon, V.

Byford, B.

Crickhowell, L.

Caithness, E.

Denham, L.

826

Dixon-Smith, L.

Monro of Langholm, L.

Dundee, E.

Murton of Lindisfarne, L.

Elton, L.

Noakes, B.

Ferrers, E.

Northbourne, L.

Flather, B.

O'Cathain, B.

Fraser of Carmyllie, L.

Onslow, E.

Freeman, L.

Park of Monmouth, B.

Gardner of Parkes, B.

Perry of Southwark, B.

Glentoran, L.

Pilkington of Oxenford, L.

Goschen, V.

Rawlings, B.

Gray of Contin, L.

Reay, L.

Henley, L.

Renton, L.

Higgins, L.

Roberts of Conwy, L.

Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.

Rogan, L.

Rotherwick, L.

Holderness, L.

Seccombe, B. [Teller]

Hooper, B.

Selborne, E.

Howe, E.

Skelmersdale, L.

King of Bridgwater, L.

Skidelsky, L.

Lucas, L.

Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.

Luke, L.

Strathclyde, L.

Lyell, L.

Swinfen, L.

McColl of Dulwich, L.

Taylor of Warwick, L.

Marlesford, L.

Thomas of Gwydir, L.

Mayhew of Twysden, L.

Trefgarne, L.

Miller of Hendon, B.

Tugendhat, L.

Molyneaux of Killead, L.

Vivian, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Acton, L.

Gilbert, L.

Addington, L.

Goldsmith, L.

Ahmed, L.

Goudie, B.

Allenby of Megiddo, V.

Gould of Potternewton, B.

Amos, B.

Grabiner, L.

Andrews, B.

Graham of Edmonton, L.

Ashton of Upholland, B.

Grenfell, L.

Bernstein of Craigweil, L.

Grocott, L.

Blackburn, Bp.

Hardy of Wath, L.

Blackstone, B.

Harris of Haringey, L.

Borrie, L.

Harrison, L.

Bradshaw, L.

Haskel, L.

Bragg, L.

Hayman, B.

Brett, L.

Hilton of Eggardon, B.

Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.

Hooson, L.

Brookman, L.

Howells of St. Davids, B.

Burlison, L.

Howie of Troon, L.

Campbell-Savours, L.

Hughes of Woodside, L.

Carter, L.[Teller]

Hunt of Chesterton, L.

Clark of Windermere, L.

Hunt of Kings Heath, L.

Clinton-Davis, L.

Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)

Colville of Culross, V.

Corbett of Castle Vale, L.

Jay of Paddington, B.

Craig of Radley, L.

Judd, L.

Crawley, B.

Levy, L.

Darcy de Knayth, B.

Lipsey, L.

David, B.

Listowel, E.

Davies of Coity, L.

Lockwood, B.

Davies of Oldham, L.

Macdonald of Tradeston, L.

Dearing, L.

Mclntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]

Desai, L.

Dholakia, L.

McIntosh of Hudnall, B.

Dormand of Easington, L.

MacKenzie of Culkein, L.

Dubs, L.

Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.

Elder, L.

McNally, L.

Evans of Parkside, L.

Masham of Ilton, B.

Evans of Watford, L.

Massey of Darwen, B.

Falconer of Thoroton, L.

Merlyn-Rees, L.

Falkland, V.

Milner of Leeds, L.

Farrington of Ribbleton, B.

Mishcon, L.

Faulkner of Worcester, L.

Mitchell, L.

Filkin, L.

Monson, L.

Gale, B.

Morgan, L.

Gavron, L.

Morris of Aberavon, L.

Geraint, L.

Newby, L.

Gibson of Market Rasen, B.

Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.

827

Palmer, L.

Smith of Clifton, L.

Paul, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Pendry, L.

Taylor of Blackburn, L.

Peston, L.

Temple-Morris, L.

Pitkeathley,B.

Tenby, V.

Plant of Highfield, L.

Thomson of Monifieth, L.

Prys-Davies, L.

Thornton, B.

Puttnam, L.

Turnberg, L.

Ramsay of Cartvale, B.

Turner of Camden, B.

Randall of St. Budeaux, L.

Uddin, B.

Rendell of Babergh, B.

Walker of Doncaster, L.

Richard, L.

Walmsley, B.

Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.

Warwick of Undercliffe, B.

Roper, L.

Weatherill, L.

Russell-Johnston, L.

Whitaker, B.

St.John of Bletso, L.

Whitty, L.

Sawyer, L.

Wilkins, B.

Scotland of Asthal, B.

Williams of Elvel, L.

Sharp of Guildford, B.

Williams of Mostyn, L. (Lora Privy Seat)

Sheldon, L.

Simon, V.

Williamson of Horton, L.

Simon of Highbury, L.

Woolmer of Leeds, L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
5.8 p.m.
[Amendments Nos. 7 to 9 not moved.]
Lord Pestonmoved Amendment No. 10:
Page 1, line 11, at end insert—
"( ) In this Bill "innovation" and "innovative projects" refer inter alia to—

(a) teaching methods, and

(b) access by teachers and pupils to computers and information and communication technology."

The noble Lord said: In speaking to Amendment No. 10, which stands in my name and that of my noble friend Lady David, I begin by making some general remarks. Because I did not speak to any of the earlier amendments, I hope that Members of the Committee do not think that I was not sympathetic to what was said. But, if we are to get the Committee stage of the Bill finished before Whitsun, I do not believe that we should all pop up every minute to say, "Oh, yes, we agree with the noble Lord". In that sense, in relation to the previous group of amendments, I was particularly pleased to hear the Minister say that she would talk to noble Lords opposite about some of their concerns.
The amendments tabled in the names of my noble friend Lady David and myself are, in every case, exploratory. We simply seek clarification and, therefore, the amendments amount to questions. I do not know about other noble Lords, but I have been in this House for a great many years and find this Bill particularly difficult to understand. Quite honestly, there are large sections of it that I do not understand at all. I do not know what the Bill is saying, let alone whether I agree with it. Therefore, one reason for tabling some rather tedious amendments is in order to be a good pupil and to learn something.
I turn to one or two other general points. Anyone who is interested in innovation and who knows about the history of education will know that, throughout our history, innovation in our education system has
828
come from teachers in schools. It has come from local education authorities and not from the department. I speak as someone who, for a long time, was the Minister's chief adviser in the department.
My own general judgment is that the way in which to help innovation in our country, and, indeed, the way in which to help education more generally, is for the department to adopt as its maxim, "Let's not get in the way". However, as we discuss innovation, I am concerned that the department seems to want to get in the way. That is what it believes it can do to help. The word "facilitate" appears but, from my reading of the Bill, the department seems to be interested in the opposite—the antonym—of "facilitate". However, that could simply be down to my ignorance because, I repeat, I do not fully understand the Bill.
My general aim regarding this section of the Bill is to try to understand what counts as an "innovation". The reason that my noble friend and I have approached the matter in a rather different way from opposition Peers is that, instead of looking at generalities, we want to look at specifics. In doing so, I have in mind one other difference: I believe that there is a valid distinction between what a school can propose and what it can do. I had always assumed that what went on in a school, subject to various broad rules, was up to the head teacher and the teachers to decide. What puzzles me partly about the Bill is that that seems to be called into question now.
I am still dealing with my general remarks. The Minister that teachers should know the law. I admit that that had never occurred to me in all my life, both as a pupil, teacher and an adviser at the department. If that is now the Government's position, I believe that this matter is much more serious than Members of the Committee opposite have said. It seems ridiculous to me that there should be the notion that before anything is done one had better find out beforehand whether it is legal. I cannot believe that the department really believes that to be the case.
I turn now to the set of examples which I would like the Committee to begin with and my Amendment No. 10. It states that innovation should include teaching methods and, within that, it should include access to computers, IT and that kind of thing. First, I want reassurance that innovation does include them. Secondly, I would like reassurance that that has nothing to do with the department. I take quite a specific example. Teachers may decide that they would rather teach using Powerpoint than blackboard and chalk. I would regard that as highly innovative. It was suggested to me at university that I might use that method, particularly as I never wrote legibly on the board and it was thought that the students might learn something if I used computer methods. It would never have occurred to me to ask for permission at the university to do that. I would like to be reassured by the Minister that no teacher would ever have to ask permission to do so.
More generally, as regards IT teaching, I believe that most of the methods for teaching languages in our schools are out of date and highly ineffective. The

829
result is that many students get very good marks in what was called the General Schools Certificate in my day, but have no facility with the language at all. Modern teaching methods would use modern computer methods. For example, I am trying to learn Italian. I do not do that by looking for a teacher to teach me. I have got tapes, CDs and videos. I interact with the whole system and I learn. I agree that at my age, every time I learn to ask how to get a train from Orvieto to Rome, I forget how to ask what is the price of a room. If I can order a first course in a restaurant I forget about how to order wine. So it is always one step forward and one step back, but at least I am learning something.
My point here is that if teachers wish to use that kind of computer method in schools, it is clearly an innovation. But in what sense do we need legislation for that kind of activity and in what sense do we need the department to he involved? Similarly, as a book addict, of course I use books for all kinds of things. But I know full well that if I wish to acquire information my method is now on-line in many cases and via the computer, and a search engine. It is quite a good way of teaching oneself different things.
If schools began to do that as the norm, in my ordinary use of English I would regard it as an innovation. But what it has to do with legislation is beyond me. I accept that I may be wrong: legislation may be required, but I cannot remotely see why that should be the case.
I put to the Committee the general question whether I am right in believing that these areas are innovative in the correct use of the English language. Am I not also right that this is something that should be happening or ought to happen, and does not require the Minister, the Secretary of State herself or even my noble friend, excellent though she is, to get involved? Am I not right in saying that we ought to stay out of these matters rather than the other way round?
We might well be interested in the diffusion of best practice, which is quite a different question. My best method for improving diffusion would be to get rid of Ofsted, which is unfortunately one of the biggest disasters to hit the education system of our country, introduced by Members of the House opposite. I would restore Her Majesty's Inspectorate at a shot. Indeed, if my noble friend would like a little advice, an amendment to this Bill in one clause to get rid of Ofsted and bring back Her Majesty's Chief Inspector, plus others, would do more good for education than almost anything else I can think of.
To summarise the position, I am simply looking for what counts as innovation, using this amendment as a specific example of whether I am right that it counts and then ask why it requires all the parts of the Bill to let it happen. I beg to move.
5.15 p.m.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I am delighted that the noble Lord is making these inquiries. If he made a few more of schools he would discover that they are doing
830
precisely the kinds of things that he is suggesting that they should do. It is a very good idea to probe, as the noble Lord is doing, to get at the root of what is meant by innovation here.
Baroness Blatch: I, too, welcome the amendment for that very reason. I believe that we are putting the Government on the spot. They have no ideas of their own and cannot think of anything. There is no definition of innovation. The amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Peston, and his noble friend Lady David, serve a purpose.
Incidentally, the two subjects covered by this amendment are both within my list of things that could be done within the existing law. The noble Lord made a much more important point en passant in addressing the amendment. He referred to teachers having to be conscious every minute of the day as to whether what they are doing is within the law. My view is that until now they have not stopped to think about that, but simply got on with running the schools and teaching the children. I believe that this Bill will make them do just that. There will be a constant looking over the shoulder and wondering whether what one is doing is lawful. Time will be spent by the schools making inquiries as to whether they can teach in a particular way or use a particular form of technology.
The noble Lord made some points about technology. When I studied A-level history I remember making marvellous use of tapes prepared by the best historians in the world. One would listen to three or four eminent historians interacting with each other with the student listening and interacting with the discussions and the teacher. That can now be taken a great deal further. In preparation for further and, particularly, higher education, the student can be left unsupervised by a teacher with the properly organised use of technology. I do not believe that that is outside the law. As the noble Lord has done, I query fundamentally whether we need these early amendments and whether we should do more to encourage and promote innovation—to use the word of the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp—in our schools and exhort them to do so, but not to put this raft of legislation in their way.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I agree with everything that noble Lords have said about encouraging innovation in schools, and about encouraging schools to use the innovation that they are already able to accomplish. I believe that we are of one mind on that point.
I am conscious of the point made by my noble friend Lord Peston about not getting in the way of such innovation. That is a good maxim in many cases. However, I return to the central point that I am trying to make; namely, that we seek to assist schools that have found something that they wish to do, but which we are preventing them from doing. We hope to enable those schools that want to explore whether the removal of that prevention could assist them. That is the nub of the matter.

831
I did not mean to suggest that teachers should know the law, and bear it in mind every minute of the day. If we are to suspend legislation for a school, it is important that we do so properly. It must be done by statutory instrument via the Secretary of State so that the law is clear. Perhaps I may take the case of special educational needs, which is something very dear to noble Lords' hearts. It is important that our educational institutions understand the law as it relates to students who have special educational needs. If we were to suspend any kind of law in another case, we would need to be clear in that respect. That is the point I make; not that I expect our teachers to spend their time worrying about the law.
I know that this is a problem for some noble Lords, but we do not have any preconceived ideas of the kind of exemptions that applicants may seek. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Peston, and to the noble Baroness, Lady David, for helping us to explore this important issue. I should tell my noble friend that the use of Powerpoint and of white boards—great innovations in schools—is most important. We must enable our schools to use new technology to its fullest and greatest extent.
I should tell the Committee that I have ministerial responsibility for ICT in schools. I am greatly heartened by the work that we are accomplishing to enable schools to go forward in this field. That includes providing as many teachers as we can with lap-tops to facilitate the use of new technology, and thereby support them in their work. We also provide support in the classroom to enable students to learn. In that way, teaching and learning will be enhanced. I accept what my noble friend said about such innovations: they are useful if, like me, you are unable to write on a blackboard in a way that anyone could possibly understand.
My noble friend also talked about languages. As noble Lords will know from previous debates, I can talk for England on the subject of languages in schools. However, I accept that we can use many different ways of supporting our students in a diverse variety of languages, especially by using new technology.
The noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, talked about her experiences when studying history. She told us about listening to tapes and joining in with the interaction between historians. Through the introduction of new technology, it is to be hoped that students will ultimately be able to watch—and, perhaps, interact— with some of our great teachers and lecturers right across the world. Indeed, perhaps they will even be able to engage in direct conversations with, say, a school in France on the subject of geography or history; in other words, with the use of new technology, they may be able to participate in the process of language learning by taking part in discussions in other countries.
We have great enthusiasm for, and are working towards all such developments. They do not require the power to innovate. However, as we explore these new ways of approaching technology and consider the way in which we want teaching and learning to
832
improve, there may be something that we could do to help and support schools, or education authorities, and enable them to do it in an even better way. That may apply to a particular way in which we are teaching or learning in schools. We are simply saying that we are not prescribing that; we want to look for it. Where schools believe that they have found it, we want them to be able to come forward and propose to us—
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: Perhaps I may put this to the Minister. Is the noble Baroness not worried that in passing this legislation many schools that are currently engaging in these activities as a matter of course will feel that they must now have permission to continue with them? That is the worrying aspect of the matter. Indeed, rather than encouraging innovation, this Bill may stultify it. Everyone will be writing letters to the Department for Education and Skills, but they will not receive a response for about six months. The whole process could go on for ever.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: During my time in the department I have not heard of anyone having to wait six months for a response from the Department for Education and Skills. I pay tribute to the officials who work incredibly hard on our behalf to ensure that they respond within set and very strict timetables. I hope that Members of the Committee will recognise that if you write to the department you will receive a reply within the allotted time. I wish to place that on the record.
I understand the point that the noble Baroness has made, but that suggests that we would somehow use this power to prevent schools from carrying out current innovations. We all recognise that schools may need to be encouraged to innovate in ways that are currently allowed through better understanding. My hope is that the innovation unit will play a part in that process by supporting teachers to spread best practice. Where legislation is halted for a fixed period, it is simply a matter of ensuring that, after four years, schools may apply for a possible extension of three years. We should be allowed to do that.
I turn to my noble friend's question about all the activities he described. If there were something within the power to innovate that could be implemented, schools would be able to apply on that basis. However, many of the activities that he mentioned are currently practised by our schools.
Lord Peston: I thank my noble friend for her informative reply, which I shall summarise. I believe she said that the sort of activities that I described did not require permission from this Bill and the Secretary of State because they are happening, and they will continue in that way. Sadly, I suppose that I must admit to being a rather thick pupil because I believe my noble friend used the expression, "Well, what requires the powers to innovate?" I know that it is not easy to answer that question, but I have to ask it. Indeed, we shall have to face it at some time.
What, specifically, are we missing here? This features in the next and the following amendment, where, again, I am fairly certain that I shall be told that

833
such activities do not require the powers to innovate. My question remains: what requires the powers to innovate? I shall, of course, withdraw the amendment at this stage, leaving that question hanging in the air.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Pestonmoved Amendment No. 11:
Page 1, line 11, at end insert—
"( ) In this Bill "innovation" and "innovative projects" refer inter alia to—

(a) teaching arrangements, and

(b) organisation of the school day, week and year."

The noble Lord said: I can be much more brief with this amendment, which relates to innovation in another area. By "teaching arrangements", I mean the processes of setting, streaming, and so on. For example, a school that is already setting or streaming may decide that that is not a good way to proceed and may, therefore, abandon the practice. Are those arrangements examples of innovation, or would changes in them be innovative? In that case, would the Bill have any leverage in that respect? Alternatively, would such matters be decided by schools themselves, with the position not changing if the Bill were passed?
Under the heading of "teaching arrangements", perhaps I may raise a point previously mentioned by another noble Lord. I refer to the whole question of the research base for all the activities that schools pursue. Not surprisingly, many activities in which schools engage do not have a research base. If you are "innovative", it means that you are trying something for the first time. Therefore, by definition, you think, "This is a good idea; let's try and do it".
As someone who is totally committed to education and very keen on people trying new things, what worries me is not merely the diffusion of what they discover, and whether or not it works; I also hope that a system exists whereby a school that has found a good way forward—let us take, for example, the great row regarding the best way to achieve literacy—should be able to contribute as part of a research base to enable other people to learn from it. I say that bearing in mind, in particular, a standard social science point that something that works in one school may work for special reasons, and, therefore, cannot be generalised. That issue requires further thought.
The
"organisation of the school day, week and year",
as set out in the amendment, is another one of my favourite topics. I am not quite clear on the law in this respect. My noble friend is in the ministerial position where she can explain the law to us. I have never understood the position where a school decides that it would rather teach certain hours rather than others. I have a feeling that schools are not free to operate in that respect. The same goes for the school week and the school year. However, let us suppose that a school
834
decided, in its judgment, to start school at 8 o'clock in the morning and finish at lunch-time. I have forgotten which country in Europe follows that practice—
Baroness David: Germany.
Lord Peston: Anyway, one not exactly uneducated country operates in that way. Such a school may say, "We have seen them do it. We would like to try it to see if it works". Can my noble friend say whether that would fall within the rubric of this part of the Bill? Is it currently illegal, and needs to be made legal, or what?
Those are the kinds of questions that I have in mind. I do not want to delay your Lordships by going through example after example, but I hope that I have made my argument clear. I want to know whether innovation covers such matters, whether the Bill has leverage on them, or whether this is an area where the Bill turns out to have no play on such matters at all. I beg to move.
5.30 p.m.
Baroness Blatch: This is another opportunity to probe innovation further. The organisation of the school day and school year was an area that I thought may require legislation. The noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, has mentioned the national curriculum. It strikes me that if there is an argument for compulsion, it is an argument for compulsion and not an argument for exemption. Another area is punishment, where we are, in a sense, ruled by European Union law.
My understanding as regards Amendment No. 11 is that paragraph (a) would be within the law, but that paragraph (b) would be outwith the law. I believe that there is an argument for saying that the Government should consider the matter. The irony that springs to mind is that a school that took a radical view about following the European system of an early start to the day and having sport and recreational subjects outside the curriculum in extra-curricular time would probably be turned down, because it would have an impact on other schools around, it would make life difficult for working parents and so on. One may expect applications to come forward for lengthening or shortening the school day, or having a four-day week rather than a five-day week, or teaching for more weeks in the year—a whole host of options—that genuinely schools, their staff, their governors and the parents may consider would make life easier.
Amendments have also been tabled in relation to five and six-term school years. That is an area that may require a change in legislation. It would be interesting to know whether the Government would allow some flexibility in the use of the school year, setting down criteria for how it could be accommodated without the need for the draconian early part of the Bill, which means that schools would have to make an application for almost any minor change in the organisation of the time spent in school by children.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: This is an apposite amendment. Only this morning my husband asked me

835
whether there was any legislation relating to the school week. The school of which he is a governor is trying to rearrange its school week. It is considering finishing at lunchtime on a Friday so that teachers can use Friday afternoon as preparation time for the following week. As my husband is a county councillor, he has been asked to find out from the council whether there is any legislation covering this point. Depending on the Minister's reply, I may be able to tell him.
Baroness Perry of Southwark: The noble Lord, Lord Peston, has raised a profound issue. That is a good example of an area where schools may produce some innovative ideas that may need some relaxation of the law. However, trying to deal with individual schools and their individual ideas is not the way to proceed. If the regulations that currently determine how much of the day, the week and the year children must spend in school are inhibiting good and desirable innovation, why not create for all schools a new relaxed law that allows them, within carefully defined limits, to explore the innovation that the noble Lord has described? We could then see what good ideas they come up with, the process could be properly monitored and researched, as the noble Lord has suggested, and in terms of the outcomes we could see whether the ideas improve pupil performance. We shall then know whether or not we have done the right thing.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: This has been an interesting debate. Perhaps we can look at the powers in more detail. I am grateful to my noble friends Lord Peston and Lady David for raising the issue and I am delighted to be able to help the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp. The law says that there must be two sessions with a break in between. Noble Lords are correct that if we want to make radical changes to the school day, perhaps to what has been described as the continental day, but which is in fact a combination of the German and the French model, we would need to use precisely this power.
Although I accept the thrust and the spirit of what the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, said, we come back to the central point that whatever we do must raise standards for our children. That provision would need to be within the models that one may want to explore. Changes could not be made for convenience or for other reasons, but they must be made in the genuine belief that our children will benefit educationally. That must include children with special educational needs, children who are gifted and talented and so on.
We would look precisely in those areas for schools to come forward with ideas. We would want to allow them to develop the model that they believe would work best for their school. They may want to explore a different model; for example, a model that developed along the French lines—four days of school plus Saturday mornings—or a German model that starts earlier and finishes earlier.
We are trying not to prescribe for schools precisely what we believe the limits should be, but we want them to come forward with ideas. Part of the purpose behind such a move is to enable good ideas that work to come
836
forward in primary legislation and become part of our school system. Noble Lords will agree that we do not want to experiment with our children. We want to ensure that the way in which we approach the situation raises standards. We want to allow schools to come forward with carefully considered ideas that are to the educational advantage of the children. We also want to respond in a positive manner and to monitor the situation carefully.
Baroness Perry of Southwark: We cannot know in advance whether an experiment raised standards. Trying to approve matters before they have taken place is like making wild guesses. Is this something we like the look of or not? If we allow limited and carefully controlled innovation and we ensure that it is properly monitored, we shall know after the event—not beforehand—whether it has worked. The idea of approving something beforehand is not an appropriate way to proceed.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I do not believe that schools make wild guesses. Schools consider carefully what they are trying to achieve. Schools already consider carefully innovations that they make, and they carefully consider what they will achieve by taking on a particular measure. That is the essence of the argument. The controls that we have put in place are precisely to ensure that we are not guessing wildly, but making the best possible judgment. That is why this power is important in allowing schools to come forward with and to develop ideas, and it will allow us to assess and to evaluate them, with the schools, to ensure that the ideas raise standards. When we can see that ideas have had an effect, we want to be able to come to your Lordships' House and the other place with legislation.
In answer to my noble friend's question yes, we want to see the potential to raise standards in those areas explored. I hope that he will accept that response to his amendment.
Lord Peston: I thank my noble friend for that answer. I have two brief comments. First, the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, is right. We have taken the concept of innovation from industry. An industrialist would regard it as ridiculous if one were to say, "Can you guarantee that this will work?" because by definition an innovation is something that one cannot guarantee. An innovation needs a basis for trying it, although one knows full well that it may fail. If we believe in innovation, as I believe all noble Lords do — certainly the Minister does—we must accept that an innovation may fail, although we hope that it will succeed. I believe that that is the correct interpretation.
I have one slightly dissenting remark. My old friend, the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, used the word "punishment". Whatever else I have in mind in this amendment, I am strictly a non-punishment man. In terms of fundamental philosophy, I believe that, in order to achieve something, carrots are the way and not sticks. Whatever else happens via this Bill, I hope

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that nothing happens to increase the role of punishment in schools. Subject to that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Davidmoved Amendment No. 12:
Page 1, line 11, at end insert—
"( ) In this Bill "innovation" and "innovative projects" refer inter alia to involvement of the parents in the school."
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, we come to the third of our probing amendments to try to discover what comes under "innovation" and "innovative projects". This probe concerns whether parental involvement in schools is included in the scope of Clause 1.
Enormous advances have been made in promoting the involvement of parents in schools, mostly without any legislative backing—with the exception of parental involvement in governing bodies. Parents are welcomed to a range of tasks in schools, and that is good; for instance, helping with reading by reading aloud a story or whatever; helping with sports and with drama. Those are all very good. My question therefore is this. If a school were to ask to be allowed to carry out an innovative project which reduced the level of parental involvement, would the Secretary of State support it? I beg to move.
Baroness Lockwood: My Lords, perhaps I can pick up a point made by my noble friend Lord Peston in an earlier amendment. Although the amendments in this series have been taken separately, there is a continuing theme; that is, what is "innovation"? What comes within the scope of the Act in the sense of when does permission have to be obtained from the department and when can an innovation be initiated by a school on its own?
It has taken us three amendments to tease out the fact contained in one of the amendments; that is, that permission has to be obtained from the department if,
"organisation of the school day, week and year",
is to be altered. If it takes this House that amount of probing, how are schools to understand exactly what they can and cannot do? There will have to be some detailed guidance provided for schools to know just how they can operate under the Bill.
Lord Roberts of Conwy: My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Lockwood, prompts me to return to the original point of my speech; namely, the mystery of what comprises "innovation" and indeed what stimulated the Government to bring forward this chapter of clauses.
In reply to an earlier amendment the Minister said that she had no "preconceived ideas" as to what might come forward from schools and other qualifying bodies as proposals for innovation. Yet quite clearly behind these clauses there is a conviction on the part of the Government that there is a wealth of ideas out there somewhere ready to be brought forward.
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Otherwise why were these clauses introduced into this legislation with so much importance being attached to them?
I press the Minister again, at the end of these three noble attempts to elicit some form of innovation that requires statutory relaxation, to explain this chapter of the Bill more clearly. I shall certainly feel a great deal happier if I have some kind of justification from the Government as to why Clause 1 was introduced at all. Surely the Government have expectations and must have examples of the sort of innovative ideas that are currently prevented because of statutory restraints.
5.45 p.m.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, hit upon an important phrase in this context when he talked about the "wealth of ideas". All noble Lords recognise that within our schools system there has indeed been a wealth of ideas which enabled schools to develop and become individual. I believe that all schools have an individual nature in the way that they educate their children which is to be welcomed and enhanced.
But when we talk to schools and look at the history of legislation we find examples where schools could have done things differently that would have been better for their children. I accept that the examples I gave earlier were retrospective—involving education of under-fives and so forth—but they were projects which schools had thought of and would have liked to introduce earlier. So we are all in the same place in saying that schools should be the innovators—they understand what is happening and have ideas—and the department should be the facilitator. We are simply exploring that premise in more detail.
I too am grateful to my noble friends Lady David and Lord Peston for taking us through some examples. There is no need to list them. I am not trying to prevent a discussion on this. But what I shall seek to do between now and the next stage of the Bill is to spell out in a little more detail, as the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, did at the beginning of this debate, some of the innovations that schools are currently able to put into practice. I shall attempt to find something which I can lay in the Library of the House to help us in our discussions and deliberations.
My noble friend Lady David mentioned specifically the role of parents in schools. We all recognise and welcome parents' involvement in schools. Indeed, in looking at some of our most disadvantaged young people, we find it is crucial to involve parents in a supportive way to work with the schools and with those children from an early age. At the risk of diverting to another topic, it is the essence of Sure Start; it is about trying to involve parents early. I wish to see that translated throughout the school years so that parents are involved. Parents may or may not be able to go into schools and support the children in a specific way. But we want them to make a commitment to the school, to the child's education and to work in partnership with the school to ensure that their children obtain the best possible education from the school and support the school in achieving that.

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So parental involvement is extremely important. I cannot imagine therefore a situation where a reduction of parental involvement could possibly raise standards. That is incomprehensible. I know that my noble friend was probing that point deliberately. But I cannot think of a situation where less parental involvement in schools would be an advantage to the school and an advantage in the raising of standards. I cannot envisage a situation where that might happen.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, before the Minister sits down, I do not believe anybody was arguing—certainly not the noble Baroness, Lady David—that there might be a reduction of the involvement of parents. The idea was the positive involvement of parents. I agree with the Minister that it is inconceivable that there is in existence any piece of legislation from which exemption would need to be granted in order to promote, encourage and involve parents in the education of their children.
But perhaps I can press the noble Baroness on something she said. The noble Baroness admitted that her examples were from a long time ago. That is true. As I said in my speech, schools working with FE and HE has been going on for a long time and, as far as I know, it has not been against the law to do so. But we are talking about this set of Ministers, this Secretary of State and the noble Baroness herself who is part of the educational team who appear to be saying that they have been pressed by teachers on their visits about the frustration of inhibitions on them to innovate because of legislation. We have asked time and again for examples of that and the noble Baroness has not been able to give them.
So what have all those teachers been saying to the noble Baroness and her colleagues in the department that hinted that there are statutes in place which prevent them from innovating in the classroom?
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: Perhaps I may supplement what the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, said. We return to the essential point: trying to find out what is innovative. We have explored various ideas, but the only one that the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, has come up with is the organisation of the school week. Yet, as I understand it, there is flexibility. She said that as long as there is a break, the school day can be varied. There must be two sessions with a break in the middle, but otherwise schools do not need statutory exemption. I suppose that they would if they ran one session a day, but provided that there is a break in the middle, they can run a short day.
We have explored many ideas. If I may say so, your Lordships' House is a creative place, and we have been trying hard to think of ideas. But we have been unable to come up with anything that is not already covered in legislation.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I gave a second example in the Bill: the issue of childcare. Schools have been saying that one way in which they want to engage with families—especially in the areas of highest disadvantage—is to be able to provide within the
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school childcare facilities run not by teachers but by organisations from either the private or voluntary sectors. That would enable children and families to come into the school and participate in it. That is an example. We shall later discuss the part of the Bill that provides for that.
I recognise that I have created some difficulties for the Committee. We are considering areas in which we are trying to enable schools to think about ideas and develop them. Members of the Committee have rightly said that a great deal of innovation can take place. We have focused on the example of the school day. The noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, is right, although there is guidance governing how changes can be made to ensure that parents are kept informed, and so on. That is one example. Before we return to the issue, I shall try to find more examples to satisfy the Committee.
I thought that I had answered the specific question asked by my noble friend Lady David: might we support reducing the level of parental involvement? I was doing nothing other than trying to answer what I thought was her question. I take on board the points made by the Committee and shall of course reflect on them.
Baroness David: I thank Members of the Committee for their contributions to this short debate. I have received an answer to my question and I find it reassuring. I am delighted that my noble friend thinks that the more families are involved in school the better for the school and the families. We have got a little from these three amendments—we have got a little further—although the position is not altogether satisfactory. I thank my noble friend for her reply and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Northbournemoved Amendment No. 13:
Page 1, line 21, at end insert "but excluding section 1 of the Education Reform Act 1988 (c. 40) (duties with respect to the curriculum) and section 2 of the Education (Schools) Act 1992 (c. 38) (functions of the Chief Inspector for England)"
The noble Lord said: The Bill is scary, especially in Clause 2. The noble Baroness has told us with great charm exactly what the Secretary of State plans to do. My concern is with what the Bill allows a future Secretary of State to do. It is a question not of the Government's intention but of the actual words in the Bill. I must add that it is not the first time that I have said that in the context of an education Bill.
I tabled the amendment because I am in love with Section 1 of the Education Reform Act 1988. As the Committee will remember, it states:
"The curriculum for a maintained school satisfies the requirements of this section if it is a balanced and broadly based curriculum which … promotes the spiritual, moral, cultural, mental and physical development of the pupils at the school and of society; and … prepares such pupils for the opportunities, responsibilities and experiences of adult life".
Lord Baker of Dorking: Hear, hear.
Lord Northbourne: I am glad to have the support of the noble Lord, Lord Baker.

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I hope to receive from the Minister a clear assurance that the Bill does not open the door to the Secretary of State, or some future Secretary of State, to change that provision of Section 1 of the Education Reform Act 1988, or of Section 2(d) of the Education (Schools) Act 1992, which lays on Ofsted inspectors a comparable duty to report on the spiritual, moral, social and cultural development of pupils in schools.
I am grateful to the noble Baroness for the guidance that she sent and the assurance that it includes. I assume that the assurance refers to Clauses 74 and 75, which appear to re-establish and reconfirm the terms of Section 1 of the 1988 Act. Can she confirm that that is the case? Can she further confirm that the provisions of Clause 2 do not enable a future Secretary of State to vary or exclude clauses from the Bill—specifically, Clauses 74 and 75? Finally, does Clause 2 empower the Secretary of State to suspend or vary Section 2(d) of the 1992 Act, which provides for Ofsted? I beg to move.
Baroness Blatch: One problem with the Bill to which the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, referred is that most of us can cast our minds back through the plethora of education legislation and think of something that should be inviolate under the Bill—something that should not be exempted even if the school believes that by doing so it could raise standards for its children.
I know that my noble friend Lord Baker, who is looking pleased, was not only Secretary of State for Education at the time but wrote the words cited by the noble Lord. Lord Northbourne. They are fundamental and profound words that set the context for our young people. I have always believed that education without a spiritual dimension is and clinical. It is essential that that should be included, along with all the other factors listed in Section 1. The temptation is now to list other statutes and say that they should be exempt from exemption, if I may put it that way.
I hope that after our debates on all the amendments to this part of the Bill, the noble Baroness will try to persuade her colleagues that their aim of promoting and encouraging innovation in schools can be achieved in a more cost-efficient and operationally effective way. We should then not be worried about some future time when some other Secretary of State may allow schools to be exempt from Section 1 of the Education Reform Act 1988.
I have sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne. If the Bill proceeds unamended, we may well return to the matter and propose to insert in the Bill statutes that we believe should be inviolate and should not be affected in any way by any application to the Secretary of State for exemption. The way that the Bill is couched will tempt many of us to table such amendments.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, and the noble Lord, Lord
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Northbourne, that it is important to ensure that all children receive a broad and balanced curriculum and that sufficient safeguards are in place to ensure that educational standards are monitored and maintained in our schools. I hope that the noble Lord will be reassured by the guidance covering applications for the power to innovate that I have placed in the Library. That guidance clearly states that we would not countenance proposals that led to a diminution in the accountability arrangements for schools. However, we would consider proposals to strengthen or simplify the accountability framework.
I hope that the Committee is also reassured by the criteria set out in the guidance, which clearly state that when considering proposals the Secretary of State will have regard to the need to promote the spiritual, moral, cultural, mental and physical development of children and society through a broad and balanced curriculum. I am sure that the Committee will accept that as a statement of our determination to ensure that all children continue to receive the breadth of education to which they are entitled.
The answer to the question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, about whether Sections 74 and 75 re-enact the Education Reform Act 1988 is, "Yes". That is currently in the Education Act 1996. I recognise that it is an important point, and, on Report, I shall propose an amendment that will address it fully.
Lord Northbourne: I am grateful for that encouraging answer. I would not have pressed the amendment, but I will say that, unfortunately, guidance is not the same as law. That is the problem. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I want to make a short statement about Amendment No. 14. I am not satisfied with the answer that the Minister gave about the definition of the school year. The matter arises again in Amendment No. 139, which is linked to Amendment No. 157. With the Committee's leave, I shall return to the issue when we discuss Amendment No. 139. That would be more appropriate.
[Amendment No. 14 not moved.]
Clause 1 agreed to.
[Amendment No. 15 not moved.]
6 p.m.
Clause 2 [Power to suspend statutory requirements etc]:
Baroness Blatchmoved Amendment No. 16:
Page 2, line 25, at end insert "except section 317 of the Education Act 1996 (duties of governing body or local education authority in relation to pupils with special educational needs)"
The noble Baroness said: I hope that the Minister will find the amendment irresistible. Several of us, representing all parts of the Committee, have argued that it is fundamental that, in any exemption from legislation, we should concern ourselves with

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protecting the interests of children with special educational needs. The noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, who is not now in his place, was concerned about Section 1 of the Education Reform Act 1988. I wish to make an exception of Section 317 of the Education Act 1996, which protects the interests of children with special educational needs.
Subsection (1) of Section 317 says that,
"The governing body, in the case of a"—
community, foundation or voluntary school—
"and the local education authority, in the case of a maintained nursery school, shall"—
not "may", which is often used in legislation—
"shall

(a) use their best endeavours, in exercising their functions in relation to the school, to secure that, if any registered pupil has special educational needs, the special educational provision which his learning difficulty calls for is made,

(b) secure that, where the responsible person has been informed by the local education authority that a registered pupil has special educational needs, those needs are made known to all who are likely to teach him, and

(c) secure that the teachers in the school are aware of the importance of identifying, and providing for, those registered pupils who have special educational needs".

I hope that the Minister will agree with me that it is inconceivable that any proposal that came forward from a school—single applicant or corporate applicant—would have the effect of invalidating Section 317 of the 1996 Act in any way, just as would have been the case with Section 1 of the 1988 Act.
There is a great deal of insecurity about the vulnerability of legislation protecting children with special educational needs. In particular, the ink is hardly dry on the Act that deals with children with special educational needs. We must put something in the Bill that puts it beyond peradventure that the interests of those children are secure. I beg to move.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I support Amendment No. 16, and I shall speak to Amendment No. 17, which is in my name and that of the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley.
As the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, said, many of us were engaged last year in putting through the Special Educational Needs and Disability Act 2001. There is concern—not only on our part but among those who supported our work on that Act, particularly the Special Education Consortium—that we should now introduce such sweeping legislation. I have already referred to the power given to the Secretary of State to confer on an applicant,
"exemption from any requirement imposed by education legislation".
That is what it says in the Bill.
It is vitally important that it is made clear—preferably in the Bill—that that exemption does not include special educational needs provision. We went to a lot of trouble last year to make sure that the needs of children with special educational needs were covered in legislation, so that schools could not wriggle out of their obligations and—perhaps, above
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all—so that colleges and universities could not wriggle out of their obligations. There is great danger that this Bill will do away with all that.
The education Acts govern the arrangements for children with special educational needs, including children with disabilities to the extent that they need special educational provision. The Acts and the related secondary legislation also cover reporting by governing bodies of maintained schools in respect of arrangements for children with disabilities. The Special Education Consortium recognises that the legislation covering other aspects of the duty towards children with disabilities is not included in the education Acts and, therefore, could not be varied by application under Clause 2. However, an application could be made to vary future education Acts that might include more detailed arrangements for disabled pupils as well as pupils with SEN.
We are grateful for the time given by the Minister and officials to hear the concerns of those fighting for the rights of those with special educational needs. Careful consideration has been given I o those concerns. The Secretary of State has given an assurance that she does not intend to vary any duties to disabled children or children with special educational needs. However, that is not what the Bill says. Equally, a commitment from the current Secretary of State does not bind any subsequent—perhaps less benign — Secretary of State.
Reassurances have been given that the approval of the Secretary of State is needed for any variation. That is clear in the design of the Bill. However, the Secretary of State may not be well placed to see what might be the impact of a variation on local provision for disabled children. It is, therefore, extremely important that we get a commitment in the Bill that there will be no exemption from or disallowing of aspects of educational legislation that relate to special educational needs.
Baroness Darcy de Knayth: I support all three amendments. The noble Baronesses who have spoken have been very eloquent and rather brief. I am afraid that I shall not be quite so brief.
All the amendments are aimed at the protection of the vulnerable, to use the Minister's words. My amendment—No. 22—originated with the Independent Panel on Special Education Advice, of which I am a patron. IPSEA is a member of the Special Education Consortium, which is the source of the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp of Guildford. My amendment goes wider than Amendment No. 16, proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, but Amendment No. 17—in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp of Guildford—is preferable to my amendment because it covers children with disabilities under the DDA. So, I would plump for Amendment No. 17, but, for the moment, I shall speak to Amendment No. 22.
I am grateful to the Minister for our long and helpful meeting. We all understand the Government's intention to open up the possibility of innovation and

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progressive development of educational practice by adventurous LEAs. Their aim is to improve schooling for all children by relieving LEAs of certain legal duties. I shall not go into the question of whether, in the case of most children, legislation is necessary; we have had enough of that today. I support the contention made by both noble Baronesses that children with special educational needs already have the freedom; it is the protection of the statement that they need.
I shall try not to be too repetitive, but with regard to the arrangements for the assessment and statementing of children with special educational needs, set out under the Education Act 1996, I need to make two specific points. I shall be boringly specific after the glorious eloquence of the noble Lord, Lord Peston, but I am afraid that it is necessary.
Seeing the noble Lord, Lord Peston, reminds me that during the passage of the 1988 Act we were worried about the freedom which teachers were given under the curriculum to disapply it to children with special educational needs. At that point, the worry was reversed. Teachers do have the freedom.
On the positive side, statements already allow educational provision to be tailored for individual children. A feature of that individual tailoring can be relieving LEAs and schools of specific duties which are not appropriate in terms of meeting the special needs of individual children; thus allowing innovation with regard to the education of individual children with statements. For example, under the 2001 SEN regulations, an LEA can apply whatever modifications or even exclusions that it considers appropriate to the application of the national curriculum in respect of an individual child. Furthermore, an LEA can decide upon any provision for his education otherwise than at school. It currently allows a wide variety of provision other than attendance at school; for instance, split placements between schools and specialist units; early attendance at colleges; home-based education with support from the home tuition service, and so forth.
In short, the device of a statement already allows an LEA maximum flexibility to be innovative with educational arrangements to the benefit of individual children with special educational needs. It does not need the benefits which the Government believe that Clause 2 will bring to all our children. Secondly, on a more negative note, there is potential for great hazard in Clause 2 for children whose needs require them to have assessments and statements of special educational needs made and maintained under the 1996 Act.
The Minister spoke about teachers knowing the law and she said how important it was to have an understanding of SEN law. The main purpose of statements is to protect the provision for children with special educational needs. The important point is that that protection depends on a linking together of several separate duties created by separate sections of the 1996 Act: the duty to identify from those children for whom they are responsible those who have special educational needs under Section 323; the duty to assess
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a child who has, or probably has, special educational needs which require the authority to determine the special educational provision called for under Section 323(2); the duty to make and maintain a statement of special educational needs when assessment shows that to be necessary under Section 324(1); the duty to specify in a statement the special educational provision to be made for the purpose of meeting an individual child's needs under Section 324(3)(a) and (b); and the duty to arrange the special education provision specified in a statement under Section 324(5)(a)(i).
The point is that as with any chain it would take only one of those links to be removed (through an LEA being relieved of one of those legal duties by a future Secretary of State) for children's legal entitlements to special educational provision to be totally undermined. Those entitlements would fall and with them Parliament's settled intention for more than 20 years for provision to protect those children's needs. The Minister described it as the protection of the vulnerable.
I am grateful to the Minister for her most useful guidance as regards the power to innovate. Page 1 contained a cheering piece stating that it was the view of the Government that weakening the accountability framework would not lead to higher standards overall. She stated that proposals may raise standards by strengthening the accountability framework. That is immediately followed by:
"Proposals to simplify or make the accountability framework less bureaucratic will also be considered".
Alarm bells ring as anyone involved in special educational needs knows that it is a common complaint to LEAs that the assessment and statementing procedures are too bureaucratic and too complex, yet a child's legal entitlements to appropriate provision are absolutely dependent on the procedures—the links in the chain—being adhered to.
With regard to children with special educational needs, a removal or simplification of any of the existing procedures set out in the 1996 Act risks undermining children's legal entitlement to a statement which genuinely protects their provision—the ultimate protection of the vulnerable.
I look forward to the Minister's reply and I hope that we shall be able to have a good many conversations outwith the Chamber. For the moment, I firmly support the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp.
6.15 p.m.
Lord Rix: I echo the sentiments expressed by the triumvirate of noble Baronesses who have spoken. I recognise and welcome the Government's attempts to promote innovation in classrooms. I am not against innovation; to stifle it is to lose possibility. I was fortunate enough to have an opportunity to discuss the issue with the Minister and I thank her for the assurances that she has given. However, my concern is about the effects of the clause in the longer term, rather like my noble friend Lord Northbourne, who is not in

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his place, when he moved Amendment No. 13. Given the new power, can the Minister assure the Committee that no future Secretary of State will intentionally or unintentionally allow schools to opt out of special educational needs legislation in the name of innovation? As the Bill is presently written, I fear that the Minister may find it impossible to gaze into her crystal ball and offer such a guarantee.
We have come a long way since the Education (Handicapped Children) Act 1970 which gave all children a place in our educational system and I do not want to see us sliding hack. To do so would be to lose all the gains towards inclusion, equal access and equal provisions for pupils with special educational needs and disabled children. We could combine innovation and caution, which is what Members of the Committee have proposed. Therefore, I support all three noble Baronesses in their respective amendments.
Lord Swinfen: I, too, support this group of amendments. I hope that at a later stage the Minister will come hack with her own amendment which has the same effect. Having quickly looked at the Bill, I understand that the only innovations on special educational needs which could be brought forward would probably weaken the current special educational needs framework. Will the Minister reassure me on that point and give examples of innovations that would not weaken but would strengthen the framework? At present, as regards special educational needs I see the clause being used only to weaken them.
Lord Addington: I support the amendment tabled by my noble friend. The noble Lord, Lord Rix, mentioned the Education Act 1970. If good intentions were enough, the matter would probably have ended there. Most of the measures put forward for special education have been in response to need. People make mistakes, they overlook issues and they do not always understand them. We have reached the point at which individual needs must be examined on a case-by-case basis.
If we make exemptions and remove pieces of legislation, we are in danger of opening up cracks down which people will fall. The great advantage of the amendment and current legislation is that people have something to fall back on. There is a constant fear that if provisions are removed many of the defences that we have put in place will disappear.
I hope that the Minister will tell the Committee that provisions will be written down on paper so that a parent can read it and say, "No, this cannot happen. We should receive X amount of help". The history of special educational needs shows that unless there is something on paper to indicate to people what they should do and to whom they should speak, action is not taken. At present, we have a good structure—at least on paper. Please let us know that none of that will be removed.
Lord Lucas: This is a difficult area to deal with. Both schools and, in particular, local education authorities
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are under a great deal of pressure with regard to special educational needs. I have much sympathy for the local educational authorities, which have so little leeway in their budgets to deal with the extra demands that arise from having perhaps only two or three extra pupils with autism throughout the entire authority. Those pupils can take half a million pounds from the budget.
Special educational needs is an area where innovation and experimentation is required. We need fresh thinking and new ideas and we need to see how they work. So I welcome the application of the early clauses of the Bill to this area, but I share completely the reservations expressed by the Special Educational Consortium and others about putting at risk the very hard won rights of children with special educational needs. This is an area where we cannot leave things as undefined as they are in the Bill.
For most schools, such a power will be a positive move and will present wonderful opportunities because, by and large, all the motivations in those schools are also positive. However, in the area of special educational needs, where heavy financial pressures must be borne—and even within schools there may be many prejudices and difficulties—I do believe that we have to keep the safeguards in place. I favour the approach adopted by my noble friend Lady Blatch in her amendment. Let us not be wet blankets and say that we shall have no innovation at all in this area, but let us also find a way of incorporating into the Bill a means of ensuring that, whatever experimentation takes place, the key elements of protection are kept firmly in place. We should not allow them to be chipped away.
Beyond that, let us encourage as much innovation as possible in the provision of special needs education because surely we need to do better than we are at the moment. It would be a great pity to lose the right to innovate simply because of the justified fears of the special educational needs lobby when it considers the new battery of powers that will be conferred on special educational needs education. The Government must move on this point and find a way of making the protections sacrosanct, while leaving as much room as possible for SEN education to do better than is the case at present.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I cannot match the eloquence with which so many noble Lords have put their case on this extremely important point. Before I begin, I wish to make one point which I failed to raise in response to Amendment No. 13, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, although I see that he is not in his place. A point was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Rix, about the length of the power. Noble Lords should be aware that the power will last for four years, at the end of which it would cease to operate. During that time, a school may apply for up to three years for an innovation to be taken forward, with a possible extension of a further three years. For that reason, it would not be within the remit of future Secretaries of State to take forward this particular power. However, noble Lords should bear in mind that neither election dates nor their outcomes are within my gift.

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I recognise the importance of this area and I am grateful to the many noble Lords and representatives of the Special Educational Consortium who have come to see me to discuss these issues. As I said to all those who did come to see me, I was keen that we should have this debate.
I want to make it clear that in determining whether or not a proposal would raise standards, the Secretary of State will have regard to the need to raise standards for all children, including those with special educational needs. However, I have said previously that there is no reason why innovative proposals from schools or LEAs are any less likely to benefit children with special educational needs. Indeed, I very much hope that pupils with special educational needs will benefit from these proposals. As the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, pointed out, we should encourage any project which might lead to higher educational standards and support for this group of pupils.
My only concern with the amendments is that, as currently drafted, they may actually stand in the way of allowing schools and LEAs to come forward with proposals which could benefit pupils with special educational needs. I shall give the Committee an example. If the governing body of a particular school—let us call it a strong school in the context of special educational needs—were to take on the key teaching and learning responsibilities of a weaker school's governing body, it would be important, in strengthening arrangements for those with special educational needs, that the strong school's governing body could lead on this as well. That would require some adjustment to the effects of special educational legislation, to secure proper provision.
I should like to say to the noble Lord, Lord Addington, who spoke so eloquently about the matter, that I hope that we are not yet finished with our support for special educational needs. Indeed, we have put in place a raft of provisions to support our children, although I hope that we have not come to an end in those efforts. I am sure that there will be much more that we can do to support these and all our children in education.
Within that context, perhaps I may give a commitment that, before we return to the matter on Report, I shall look at how best we can ensure that the protections for vulnerable children and those with special educational needs are made clear, not only in this legislation but also in our intentions as to how this power will be used. With that commitment, I hope that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Lord Renton: I have listened to the noble Baroness with great interest, but I should have thought that this was a matter on which it would be desirable to have the removal of doubt. The incorporation of either Amendment No. 16 or Amendment No. 17 would
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surely help in that. It would not interfere with the meaning of the legislation. Something along these lines would be desirable.
Baroness Blatch: I have selected one piece of legislation, the noble Baroness has selected another, while the noble Baroness, Lady Darcy de Knayth, has chosen yet another way of approaching the same issue. I should admit at the outset that I am not territorial about my amendment. What we are all arguing for is to ensure that proper protection is brought to bear against the strong feelings of vulnerability felt by those concerned about the provision for children with special educational needs. Because special educational needs has been included in the list where powers may be brought to bear, they could qualify for exemption.
One of the ways around the difficulty would be this. Although I shall withdraw the amendment at the end of my remarks, between now and the Report stage, I would ask the Minister to consider carefully whether subsection (5) of my proposed new Clause I might aid us here. For the purposes of clarity I shall quote it:
"No order may be made under subsection (4) nor may any provision be made in such an order, unless the Secretary of State or the National Assembly for Wales as the case may be is satisfied that such order or provision may be made without detriment to the education at the school of those pupils having special educational needs".
I am sure that the provision would need a little rewriting, but it would ensure that nothing in Clause 2 should be allowed to interfere with or have a detrimental effect on the education of children with special educational needs.
I believe that this would also fall into the category covered by the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne. Adding a provision at the very beginning of the Bill would act as a form of scene-setter for the rest of the legislation. The protection of children with special educational needs should be made extremely clear and I am sure that such a provision is warranted. I put this proposal forward as a suggestion.
I agree with the noble Baroness that there is much scope for innovation in the field of special educational needs. It is an area which already enjoys a great deal of effort on the part of many people, and long may that continue. One would not want to exclude them from being able to apply to raise standards for children with special educational needs.
When the noble Baroness referred to the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, she commented on the time-scale of the power. I find it difficult to understand why any form of time constraint has to be incorporated at all. As I said when speaking in support of Amendment No. 1, if a school has introduced an innovation and it is a good idea, why impose a three-year, six-year or any other constraint on it? Surely it should be allowed to continue. If the innovation does not work, then it will be found out. Either parents will become dissatisfied or exam results and school performance will show that it is not working, and through its inspections, Ofsted will discover that something is amiss. Poor

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innovation's will simply fall by the wayside. It would even be possible to introduce a power in the Bill that if, after a certain period, an innovation is not working, then it should fall. However, if it is successful, the thought of 23,000 potential regulations having to pass through the House in order to change the law on the basis of proposals here, there and everywhere strikes me as being an extremely laborious way of allowing for innovation.
In the meantime, however, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I rise to say only that I am delighted that the Minister is listening to these arguments. I look forward to seeing her further proposals.
[Amendment No. 17 not moved.]
6.30 p.m.
Lord Pestonmoved Amendment No. 18:
Page 2, line 33, at end insert—
"( ) No order made in this Chapter shall enable the Secretary of State (in relation to England) or the National Assembly of Wales (in relation to Wales) to introduce or permit the introduction of selection by ability in any schools in receipt of public funds."
The noble Lord said: We have had some extremely interesting debates on the amendments so far where, although there is still some controversy, there seems to have been a considerable meeting of minds. I now take the Committee into an area where I believe that philosophically we will diverge very strongly indeed. The amendment relates to selection and comprehensive education.
I declare an interest. I have devoted more than 30 years of my life to campaigning for comprehensive education. My children went to comprehensive schools even though my friends at Highgate at the time—riot all of them, but quite a lot—talked about "sacrificing your children" and so on. Anyone who knows my children will know that the word "sacrifice" does not apply to them at all.
I was heartened by my noble friend the Minister when, at Second Reading, she averred her commitment to comprehensive education. A similar statement has been made by my right honourable friend the present Secretary of State. But, as the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, said, we are discussing a Bill which one day will be an Act of Parliament. Therefore, what specific Ministers or specific Secretaries of State say at this time is of no relevance whatever. We are discussing the broad generic concept of "a" Secretary of State, whoever he or she may be.
Even bearing that in mind—and here I must be very acerbic indeed—I should have thought that, after five years of a Labour Government with two massive majorities, by now all grammar schools would have gone. Although there are not many grammar schools left, if I had had my way they certainly would all have gone. I regarded them as a blot on the educational landscape 30 years ago; I still regard their contribution
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to the education system viewed as a whole as destructive, not constructive. But I accept defeat on that. If this Labour Government with this majority are not going to get rid of grammar schools, I cannot imagine that I shall live to see a Labour Government who will.
My concern, therefore, is what the Bill will enable, in the abstract sense, a future Secretary of State to do. On reading the Bill, I cannot see that the Bill does other than empower a future Secretary of State— doctrinal though I may regard such a person—to say, "We believe that an innovation that will raise standards and improve our education system would be one that reintroduced selection by ability". I can see nothing in the Bill to stop that if the Secretary of State were to argue along those lines. I do not want to put the idea into the heads of those who have not thought as cleverly as I have that that is how they may argue, but in the Bill I cannot see anything that could remotely stop such a Secretary State.
My noble friend replying that she does not intend to do it simply is not an answer to the question. In her response I wish to hear my noble friend say one of two things: either that I do not understand the Bill—which I entirely accept; I have said that I am having difficulties with it—or that it could not possibly happen. But if I understand the Bill correctly, a future Secretary of State could do this on the grounds that it was innovative and beneficial. We would then have to amend the Bill—exactly on these or, with better draftsmen's ideas, other lines—so that no Secretary of State could reintroduce reselection on the grounds that it was an innovation that he or she thought was advantageous.
I reassure my noble friend that I am still sticking to my policy; this is a probing amendment. I have no intention of seeking a vote on comprehensives until Report stage, but at least one Member of the Committee will one day go on record as supporting in the Lobbies comprehensive education. I beg to move.
Lord Pilkington of Oxenford: My Lords, I oppose the Bill on the grounds that it gives too much power to the Secretary of State. If the interpretation of the noble Lord, Lord Peston, is correct, I would welcome the chance for the Secretary of State to improve many of the disadvantages that exist currently in English education.
Most of Europe will be amazed that the battles of 40 years ago are still going on in the English legislature. "Selection by ability" is a rather general term. It is like saying, "All Catholics are wrong", or, "All Marxists are devils". What it really means is that people should be educated according to their potential. The noble Lord and I share the ideal that every pupil in this country is entitled to a general education. But there comes a time when some want to be economists like the noble Lord, some want to be historians like me, some want to be plumbers, some want to be electricians and so on. They are all entitled to a training that allows them to fulfil their potential.

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This occurs in France, in Holland and the Netherlands, in Germany and in Austria. In Germany, for example, people move between the two systems without the bitterness of the kind of class war that the noble Lord describes. If the Secretary of State decided that people over 16 should move in a direction where their particular potential could be realised, that would not be selection by ability. If he or she further decided that they should, for reasons of economy and specialisation, go to specialist institutions—as they do in France and Germany—he or she should be entitled to do so. The noble Lord is being dinosaur-like in the field of education in seeking to deny the Secretary of State this power.
It is interesting that when East Germany joined the West it abandoned comprehensive education, which it had had for a long time, except in Brandenberg and part of Berlin. It was egalitarian—everyone had the choice—but only 9 per cent of Germany followed comprehensive education.
Dare I say that it is somewhat insular to talk in those terms—terms that I have not heard since the 1960s? I speak as chairman of the National Grammar Schools Association. Many of our schools have beacon status awarded by the Government. I deplore the amendment. I admire the noble Lord in many respects; and I am sorry that he is rather like a man who still believes that the earth is flat.
Baroness Walmsley: I support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Peston. The commitment of these Benches to the principle of comprehensive education is well known. With respect to the noble Lord, Lord Pilkington, this has nothing to do with class warfare but a great deal to do with standards. The contribution of comprehensive education to the increase in educational standards in this country over decades is very well known to those who know about education. With those few words, I support the amendment.
Lord Lucas: In the interests of balance, as the Government Front Bench will undoubtedly support selection, I should say something in support of the comprehensive principle. I entirely share the affection of the noble Lord, Lord Peston, for comprehensive schools. That is where my children are, and I am delighted by it. The way that comprehensive schools work—when they work well—is entirely admirable and is the best solution, where that is possible, to organising schools and education.
But I do not support the noble Lord in the wording of his amendment. Clearly you have to have some schools where you select by ability. If you are going to have a school for young footballers as a football academy, or for people specialising in dance or music and so on, then you have to select by that ability. If we are to offer those kinds of opportunities, clearly selection has a place.
Selection also has a place at some age. At the moment, we allow selection at 16. One can find admirable examples of where that works extremely
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well. The noble Lord may know the Cambridge sixth-form colleges. There is no formal division between the two, but one has developed as the academic college and the other has developed as the college with breadth. Selection in the process of getting kids into Hills Road does not hurt at all because it allows it to offer a much more focused curriculum on the straightforward academics, whereas Long Road has a much broader and, in many ways, more interesting offering without having the academic hurdles to get over. Such selection has allowed that kind of differentiation to take place.
My objection to a grammar school system, such as is practised in Kent or Buckinghamshire, is that children are not developed at age 11. They have not begun to show their faces. My son is 14, and even at that age I find it hard to know whether he will turn out to be an academic or a rock musician. If he were forced to make the choice at 11, it would be daffy, and I would not wish it upon him to have to make the choice at 14; 16 is probably the right age at which to allow selection by ability. So I see several roles for selection by ability, but I do not share the passion of some in my party for the extension of it. I line myself up behind my idol in these matters, the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher, who did so much good work in introducing the comprehensive system.
Lord Dormand of Easington: I strongly support the views expressed by my noble friend Lord Peston. I have made my views known during both terms of office of this Government, in this Chamber and in writing. All that we are told is that they have to take into consideration the views of parents. That is the official answer, and it is difficult to argue against that.
My question, then, is: how do we assess the views of parents? Do we take votes in the area of a school? Do we write more letters? Do we canvass? What is the system whereby we come to what some would say is the answer to the problem posed by my noble friend?
An argument to which I subscribe, although my noble friend may not, is that if you feel as we feel, and as we have argued for many years, that comprehensive education is the best system of secondary education, then, frankly, we do it. If there is opposition—as there will be—then we have to use the argument and cite the experience to show that what we are saying and doing is right. I only hope that we shall have a longer and more sensible debate on this very important and central issue.
6.45 p.m.
Baroness Blatch: I suddenly like this Bill! I have no philosophical hang-up about selection on the basis of ability. I say to those noble Lords who have supported the amendment, including those on the Liberal Democrat Benches: the Government have left you all behind. We are all Tories now on this issue. There is a great deal of selection in the system. If she makes reference to the matter in replying, the noble Baroness will be able to catalogue the areas in the system where, even since this Government came to power, modes of selection have been introduced.

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I remember an incredible debate—which I may later be able to find in Hansard—that took place when we attempted to elicit from the Government their definition of "ability" and "aptitude". It would qualify for the Wooden Spoon Award from the Plain English Society. It was pure gobbledegook. It took a long time, and the debate was extremely amusing, but at the end of the day we were none the wiser.
Perhaps I may draw to the attention of our Liberal Democrat friends the intervention that took place during the speech by the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock. When she claimed to be against selection on the basis of ability, she was reminded that Liberal Democrats up and down the land were walking in the streets to defend their local grammar schools from being destroyed by the balloting system put in place by this Government. The answer was: "Well, our national policy is one thing, but our local policy is another". All I can say is: if you have a policy, you have a policy. As I say, in principle, I have no objection whatever and no philosophical hang-up.
Teaching children—all children—according to their abilities and aptitudes is what education should be about. Reference has been made to children with special educational needs. It is just as important to meet their needs as it is to meet the needs of those who are highly able.
I know that the Minister will tell us how much the Government are doing to meet the needs of the highly able. But they are being selected for that. Whether they are being selected under the same roof, in a comprehensive school, or whether they are being selected for an academic "hot house" type education in Hills Road or even in some of our grammar schools up and down the land makes no odds. It is important that children are taught and that the education provided is consistent with their abilities and aptitudes.
Being against selection, as the Government claim to be—although in practice they have put quite a lot of it in place—is a mean-spirited policy of envy. We must be thankful for small mercies: the limited amount of selection that was in place when the Government took office is still in place.
The noble Lord, Lord Peston, in confessional mode, talked about his own children going to comprehensive school. I shall be equally confessional and say that my children did too. My children have done exceptionally well. The debate is not about whether you like or do not like comprehensive education. I believe that it has its place in the system. We have a great deal of choice in the education system. There are some excellent comprehensive schools; there are some poor ones. There are some excellent private schools; there are some poor ones. There are some excellent grammar schools; and there are some grammar schools that are not performing as well as they might. The debate is not about the structure of a school; it is about meeting the needs of children.
We had a debate in this House on higher education last night and a previous debate on the subject about a week ago. One of the key issues that emerged was how we should prepare young people for higher
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education. There was agreement on all sides, including on the Government Benches, that another key issue was how we could help children from poorer families to be fully prepared at school level to be qualified for entrance into higher education. I passionately support that idea. But you cannot do that if you turn your back on selection on the grounds of ability.
The Government's determination to deny selection on the grounds of ability makes the policy of inclusion an absolute sham. As I said, bright children from poorer homes will be the losers. It is for them that we should be concerned. When the Government came to office, such children were helped—by the assisted places scheme, by places in independent schools and by places in grammar schools. Then the pernicious system of local balloting 'was introduced to see whether local pressure groups could get rid of grammar schools. Over every grammar school in the country hangs the sword of Damocles; namely, the fear that signatures will be gathered for a petition in the balloting system that will determine its future. That need not happen only once; it can happen year on year, affecting the children in those schools and sapping the energies of parents and staff, who have to drop what they are doing in order to fend off the possible curtailment of their future.
I hope that the amendment introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Peston, will not be supported and that the Liberal Democrats will not enter the Lobby with him at a later stage. I hope that the Minister—who I believe is as concerned about bright children from poor homes as we all are—will at least say that there is a place in education for selecting children on the basis of aptitude and ability.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I had not intended to intervene in this debate. However, I have been moved to do so by the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch.
My great regret is that, so far as concerns new Labour, we are all Tories now. The point is that they have not done as the noble Lord, Lord Peston, has suggested and stood up for the comprehensive principle. Yes, it was 40 years ago, as the noble Lord, Lord Pilkington, said. For the past 40 years I have been fighting for the comprehensive system. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, put it very well: at 11, you cannot choose. I agree with him: 15 or 16 is the right age. That is when young people have some idea of their own abilities and know where they want to go.
We debated this matter yesterday. I cannot accept what the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, said about—
Lord Pilkington of Oxenford: If the Germans can select at 14 with no problem of conflict between classes, why can we not do that in England?
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: That relates partly to the class system in this country. I think that 14, 15 or 16 are much better ages for selecting.
I cannot accept what the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, said about preparation for universities. Across the board, good comprehensive schools are preparing

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young people for university and they are doing splendidly. Yesterday I was arguing the case for having masters degrees for plumbers. We need a broad range. Schools such as the sixth-form colleges in Cambridge are doing precisely that and are preparing our young people splendidly to go forward.
Baroness Blatch: I know how passionate the noble Baroness is about plumbers. Does she agree that, while we need first-class plumbers, electricians, doctors, dentists and nurses, we also need the academic élite? We need bright academic people. We know from what teachers say about the very bright children in our nursery schools, our primary schools and our secondary schools that unless they can be selected at some time and given an education commensurate with their particular talents, we are failing those children.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I think that the noble Baroness would also accept—because I think that this applies to both our own children—that all the evidence shows that bright children do very well at comprehensive schools and many of them go forward to become very bright academics.
Lord Turnberg: I hesitate to speak in this debate, because it is clearly not my area. I am prompted to do so because there is clearly some confusion about the difference between education and training. Education has to be available to all, irrespective of ability. Training is for people who want to take advantage of their particular aptitudes. Training comes rather later, after a person has been educated to the best of their capacity. That is why I support the amendment.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: This has been an interesting debate. I am interested in the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, about rock musicians. As a great fan of "Pop Idol", including, I confess, voting at the end—
Lord Lucas: Rock, not pop.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: On that I can support the noble Lord even more. We must certainly have a conversation about that.
In some ways I wish that we were having this debate on a Wednesday afternoon, when we would have the time to delve into the fundamentals of the issue. We share the aim of teaching children of all aptitudes and abilities. The question embroiled in the debate is about the mechanics of how to do that.
I do not believe in a grammar school system, because I do not believe in a system that chooses at 11 those who are to be described as "academic" and go to grammar school and those who, as where I grew up, go to a secondary modern. That does not mean that children should not make choices at older ages. We have always had a system in which children make choices as they get older about the kind of education that works for them. All noble Lords agree on that.
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To respond to my noble friend Lord Peston specifically on the amendment, this power, which will last for four years, is brought in by a government who legislated in the School Standards and Framework Act 1998 to rule out any new selection by ability in maintained schools. We have made it clear that we do not believe that selection by academic ability has anything to do with raising standards. The Secretary of State would not accept a proposal to extend selection to publicly funded schools under this power. As we do not believe that such proposals would raise standards, we would not have the power to use the provision in that way. I can also give a commitment to my noble friend to make that explicit in the guidance on the power to innovate. With those reassurances, I hope that he will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Peston: I remind the Committee that I am a member of the academic elite and I stand second to no one in the Chamber in my capacity for intellectual snobbery. I also apologise to my noble friend Lord McIntosh of Haringey, because he was at least as committed and more directly involved than I was in comprehensive education in Haringey. I accept that he, among others, was at the forefront of what we were all doing. That applies to many other noble Lords.
I also plead guilty to being a dinosaur. Being a dinosaur means that I am a conservative, of course. I think that many things from the past that are old are good compared with things that are new. I have no problem with that.
Suggesting that we are all Tories now shows an ignorance of the history of comprehensives. The Tories were at the forefront of introducing comprehensives in some of their local authorities. It was not Tory doctrine at the beginning of all this not to go for comprehensive. As the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, said, as far as I know and unless things have changed, the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher, created more comprehensives than any other Secretary of State—and quite rightly. It is not true to say that we are all Tories now.
Noble Lords know how much I hate politics. In my judgment, this is not a political matter, but a philosophical division on the nature of education and how we approach it. The question generally is not just about bright children from poorer homes, but about all children. I am as concerned about stupid children from rich homes as I am about bright children from poorer homes. Stupid children from rich homes having inappropriate education inflicted on them because of the class prejudices—if noble Lords wish to press that point—of their parents is just as bad as anything else that I can think of. The issue is what is right for all children.
I have two other points following the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas. He got on to my next amendment, which has ruined it for me a little. The next amendment is about what we should do for the future Beckhams of this world. I shall come to that in a moment. On the issue of rock versus academic, I shall give the Committee one anecdote. When I was very much younger, one of my economics colleagues at LSE

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said to me, "We've got this young man called Jagger and he has asked me whether he should carry on with his BSc(Econ) or carry on with his group". I said to him, "I take it you advised him that a BSc(Econ) was definitely worth a lot more for the future than playing rock music". He said, "No, I told him if he was good at rock he probably ought to do that". For once, an economist gave some good advice.
Coming to what the amendment is all about, I am still a little lost, because my noble friend the Minister did not reassure me about what I feared could happen. She did not say whether a different Secretary of State could use the legislation in precisely the form that troubles me. I agree with her that we need a bit more time on the issue, so we shall come back to it on Report and talk some more. Given that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Pestonmoved Amendment No. 19:
Page 2, line 33, at end insert—
"( ) No order made in this Chapter shall enable the Secretary of State (in relation to England) or the National Assembly of Wales (in relation to Wales) to introduce where it does not already occur, or extend or permit the extension of, selection by aptitude, social class, or religious affiliation in any schools in receipt of public funds."
The noble Lord said: I am getting tired, even if no one else is, so I hope that we can deal with this amendment reasonably quickly. Amendment No. 18 related to my hope that it would not be possible to extend selection by ability under the Bill. This amendment relates to what forms of selection would be permissible under the Bill. It raises our old friend, the debate on whether aptitude is different from ability. I beg the Committee not to continue that debate this evening. I shall be happy to come back to it when I am feeling stronger, but I can do without that kind of linguistics at the moment. Would the Bill enable the introduction of forms of selection other than by ability? The amendment also anticipates one of the tough areas that I shall get involved with—the question of selection by religious affiliation. I want to debate that, although not in detail under this heading. Would the Bill enable that to be extended? As I promised right at the beginning of today's proceedings, I am viewing this as a straight question to the Minister and to other noble Lords. What forms of selection might be permitted under the rubric of this Bill?
I have one further comment in anticipation of a later debate. I agree that we need to debate age and what happens in different age groups. However, I do not want to do that in this debate, and I hope that other noble Lords also accept that we should postpone debating the issue of 14, 16 and so on until we reach later, relevant amendments. I beg to move.
7 p.m.
The Lord Bishop of Blackburn: I have listened very carefully to this fascinating debate. I am sorry to disappoint the noble Lord, Lord Peston, but I suspect that he anticipated that someone from these Benches
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might intervene at this point. I simply tell him that, in visiting hundreds of schools and talking to thousands of head teachers, teachers and parents, I have never come across a school yet that admitted social class as one of the grounds on which it admitted pupils. I also agree that this is not the moment to debate these issues. I should simply like to make a couple of points on the issue of religious affiliation.
I am aware that Amendment No. 19 is only a probing amendment. However, if it were accepted, I believe that it would be a limitation on the freedom of schools and local communities to develop the character of schools and to respond to the needs of the local community. Over the years, time and again, through me and other spokesmen, the Church of England has put on public record its commitment to working in partnership with LEAs, parents and the local community. Consequently, any development of the Church's provision must have local support and agreement. There is a slight danger that, if Amendment No. 19 were accepted, that would be prevented. We believe that a requirement such as that proposed in the amendment in respect of religious affiliation would undermine local decision-making and schools' ability to develop as they see fit in the development of their own life and their own educational standards.
Some would say that the amendment could represent an intolerant attitude, although I do not believe that the noble Lord, Lord Peston, intended it in that way. Others have told me that they believe it is rather undemocratic. It would certainly enshrine the discrepancy in the ability to exercise parental preference in Church of England high school education in this country. However, this is not the moment to have a major debate on that subject. That will come later, and I look forward to it with more passionate interest than I can say. I simply want to say that we are concerned about the limitation that the amendment, if passed in this form, could put on the freedom of schools and communities to develop.
Lord Roberts of Conwy: I think that the noble Lord, Lord Peston, would readily admit that, in both Amendment No. 18 and Amendment No. 19, we are fighting over old battlegrounds. Perhaps we should forget those old battlegrounds and certainly not regard them as inhibiting any future development. My own feeling, for what it is worth, is that selection by ability is a matter for a teacher, whereas selection by aptitude is probably more a matter for the pupil himself or herself.
My own experience, ancient as it is now, includes being educated at two comprehensive schools, including, during the war, one of the first comprehensives in Anglesey. I still remember being paralysed by the 11-plus exam, so much so that I could barely write my name on the paper. Even so, I had to pass the exam to get into that old county school, which was formerly a grammar school and was fast developing into a comprehensive school. Even in those early days, there was streaming—an A stream, a B stream and so on—in that school. Then, I had to pass

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exams—both a scholarship exam and the common entrance—to enter another comprehensive school, namely Harrow. Harrow ultimately was a comprehensive school in the sense that there was a tremendous amount of streaming of pupils with particular aptitudes.
Although, as I say, we should forget the old battlegrounds represented by phrases such as selection by ability and selection by aptitude, such phrases should not inhibit those currently involved in education who may be thinking of innovative ideas.
Lord Dearing: I am sorry that we are not going to have the debate about the Beckhams, the Jaggers and the Isambard Kingdom Brunels. How do we best respond to the needs of children and young children? It is quite an important issue. If we cannot afford to provide excellence in all our schools for all these different aptitudes, there is an argument for saying—as the Government are doing—let us have some schools that are particularly well equipped in, for example, sport, engineering, languages or information technology, and reserve a modest proportion of those places for the young Beckhams and the young Jaggers.
I do not think that that is antagonistic to the comprehensive principle. It seems to be saying, as sensibly as one can, "We have limited resources and cannot provide the best in all subjects in all our schools. So let us go for good standards everywhere, but, across the city as a whole, provide centres of excellence in particular areas". However, we shall hear more of that.
Although we shall have the debate on faith schools on another day, I should like to make a couple of points now. Amendment No. 19 would, as I read it, fossilise the position. However, society is not static. A small city or big town, for example, might have a complete reorganisation of its schools. Following consultation with parents and others, it may decide, as I know one city has, to close a church school. Another aspect of the reorganisation, however, may be to expand another school and provide places that are distinctively for children from faith homes. Amendment No. 19 would stop that desirable reorganisation of provision in such places.
I should also hope that we are a tolerant society in which we are willing to respond to the wishes of parents and local communities. Specifically, however, and as an advocate of church schools in particular circumstances, I would not want these powers to be used to circumvent the procedures which exist to ensure that we are truly meeting the needs and wishes of society. I would not want the Secretary of State to say, "No, we shall ignore the school's organisation committee, the process by which all proposals must go forward and be considered, and an objective of reaching unanimity". I would not want the Secretary of State to short-circuit that. I would therefore be with the noble Lord, Lord Peston, in not wanting to see these powers used to circumvent existing procedures.
Lord Rix: Is the noble Lord, Lord Peston, satisfied that the wording of Amendment No. 19 does not
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provide yet another excuse for excluding pupils with special educational needs with a particular aptitude for a particular subject?
Lord Brennan: I intervene only briefly, first to declare an interest that I did not expect to declare: I am the president of the Catholic Union of Great Britain. In speaking to a previous amendment, the noble Lord, Lord Pilkington, remarked on the historical absurdity suggesting that Catholics are always wrong. For my brethren in the faith generally and for my fellow Peers of this faith, I reassure him and the House that we contribute matters that do not show that that absurdity is an absurdity.
Secondly, and much more importantly, I speak because the question of faith schools is of particular importance, as the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, just indicated. I admire the spirit in which the noble Lord, Lord Peston, moved the amendment. His enthusiasm is remarkable. I hope that my noble friend the Minister will match that enthusiasm with the measure of care and discretion with which she clarifies the Government's position about safeguarding faith schools. Just as the phrase of the noble Lord, Lord Pilkington, was an absurdity, it is equally an absurdity to suggest that a faith school is not capable of innovation in education.
Baroness Blatch: I support the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Brennan. It is a pity that we are not having a longer debate on some of these issues. I fully expect the Minister to support strongly the existence of faith schools and even the encouragement of more. I admire the tenacity and the good humour with which the noble Lord, Lord Peston, always enters into these debates. I have enjoyed engaging in debate with the noble Lord over a number of years. We entered this House on the same List and therefore we are approaching the same anniversary. The Minister gave the noble Lord reasonable assurances on the previous amendment. However, I hope and believe that that will not be the case as regards the amendment that we are at present discussing.
It is right that children of families of a particular faith should be allowed to be selected for schools that support that faith. There is now a growth in the number of ecumenical schools. In Cambridge a Catholic and an Anglican school have been established and are working well. I hope that that process will be encouraged.
I believe that specialist schools have worked well. The Government accepted them and have expanded their number. They have a policy aim to continue to expand that number. I believe that a later amendment will seek to expand the number of subjects that are offered. I refer to arts, music, sport, science and technology and languages. A moment ago I reminisced about various young people who had received a specialist education before we had state specialist schools. As a councillor in Cambridgeshire I helped a talented young violinist when my colleagues on the local authority said that his needs could be met in any of the local schools in Cambridgeshire. There was no

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doubt that many of those schools had strong music departments. Cambridgeshire prides itself on its good schools. However, the young boy went to Cheetham's school and was successful. The right decision was taken in that case. I am delighted that he went to that school. He enjoyed the specialist education which he received there.
Languages, technology and science have progressed a great deal through innovation—the Clause 2 issue—in our city technology colleges which gave birth to the specialist colleges which I support. There is a strong argument for allowing selection on grounds of academic ability but certainly on grounds of faith and aptitude for specialist subjects. I do not think that I know of a school that selects on the basis of social class. I hope that such a school does not exist. I would not support that as the only criterion for selection. Certainly, we all know areas of the country where groups of people can afford to move to a particular area where schools have a good reputation. However, that is not a case of schools selecting pupils on the basis of social class but of parents being able to afford to move to an area with a school that has a good reputation. Let us make no mistake: if selection is denied, people will find ways to get their children in the best schools. However, that applies only to those who can afford to take certain action. Governments of any political persuasion should do what they can to support the children of families who cannot afford to move to an area with schools that would provide an education to meet the abilities and aptitudes of their children.
Baroness Walmsley: As we shall debate faith schools later I do not intend to address them at the moment. However, I wish to comment on the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Peston, on selection by aptitude, even if we all understand what that means.
When the Bill was debated in another place my honourable friend the Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough encouraged the Government not only to allow all schools to be specialist schools but also to take away the right to select 10 per cent of students by aptitude partly because of the difficulty of knowing what that means but also because this is an area where the Government have already innovated and tried something out which has turned out to be rather unpopular. We know that only 6 per cent of existing specialist schools use the right to select by aptitude. That right has proved itself to be unwanted and unworkable and I therefore agree with the noble Lord, Lord Peston, that we should not extend it.
7.15 p.m.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: This is another debate which I sense heralds other debates to come. I shall try to address my remarks to the amendment in order to keep my powder dry for later. Again, we are considering how best to respond to the needs of all children. That is something which unites this Chamber and is something which makes me proud to be a Member of it.
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In addressing the amendment let me begin again by saying that the purpose of this power is to respond to proposals which will raise standards. If a proposal comes forward that would not raise standards, it could not be approved.
As noble Lords will know, the admission arrangements for maintained schools are determined locally following a statutory consultation process. Admission authorities for schools must ensure that those arrangements comply with legislation and have regard to my department's code of practice on school admissions. Statutory parties to the consultation may object to the independent schools adjudicator if they are unhappy with any aspect of a school's determined admission arrangements. I cannot envisage a way in which a change to those arrangements could be argued to improve educational standards of children.
The amendment refers to three types of selection—by aptitude, by social class and by religious affiliation. We legislated in the School Standards and Framework Act 1998 to rule out any new selection by academic ability except for "fair banding" and sixth forms. I have set out the position on aptitude several times. I shall respect the tiredness of the noble Lord, Lord Peston, at this point in the day, but no doubt we shall return to the matter. I can be clear that we would not use the power to change that position. We are clear that any selection on the basis of social class is unacceptable and the code of practice on school admissions makes it clear that admissions authorities for schools should not set admissions criteria which have the effect of disadvantaging certain social groups in the local community. For example, we would not expect to see criteria that give priority for admission on the basis of a parent's occupation or income. I assure the Committee that any request to the Secretary of State for an order which would disadvantage a particular social class would have no chance of success.
As the Committee will be aware, many schools of a religious character give priority for admission to adherents of a particular faith or denomination. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Blackburn mentioned that. That criterion forms part of a school's published admission arrangements and as such must be consulted on, as I described earlier, and may be the subject of objection to the schools adjudicator. As I said earlier, we could not envisage a use of the power to innovate to bypass that process.
In conclusion, I do not believe that the noble Lord's amendment is necessary to achieve the protections he seeks. I hope that, given my assurances, he will agree to withdraw it.
Lord Peston: I thank my noble friend for that reply. I wish to make a few brief remarks. I say to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Blackburn that as regards social class and selection we have what we might call the "Mandy Rice-Davies" phenomenon here as regards asking any head about social class; namely, "He would, wouldn't he?" However, anyone

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who knows anything about the research into school admissions knows that a social class element definitely plays a role in some schools.
I accept what the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, said; namely, that I am fighting on all battlegrounds, but not as regards every subject. When we discuss the reform of the curriculum and 14–16 education, even I shall reveal some new thoughts. The Committee will have to wait for that.
I turn to selection, particularly by aptitude, which was discussed by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas. Let us assume that we continue with selection by aptitude, which has been legitimised. That would mean that all of our good footballers were in very few schools, likewise all our good artists and good musicians. We should ask ourselves—we are using our imagination—"Is that the kind of education system that we should like to have?". My view is that we should simply answer "No". I should like all children to attend schools in which some pupils are really rather good at art. In my school, some were but, unfortunately, I was not one of them. The notion that they—or the good footballers or good musicians—would not even be in such a school is the reason I oppose selection by aptitude.
As the Minister is well aware, I am opposed to all that development on the part of the Government. In fact, it is worse than that; I regard that approach as a gimmick, and I believe that it will gradually die. Let us use our imagination and consider what would happen if we went down the path of selection by aptitude: we should end up with an educational system that, broadly, we should find very unattractive.
We shall debate religious schools in due course, but I have a similar view in that regard. If the children of really committed religious people were all concentrated in just a few of our schools, I should regard that as a disaster for our country, let alone for education. That is why I am very concerned about the fact that, overwhelmingly, most children should be in our straightforward, ordinary schools. When we debate religious schools, our debate will not be about religion but about "inclusivity" and where we should like our children to be educated.
That is where I am coming from. I thank the Minister for her answer and other noble Lords for taking part in this debate. This is certainly a theme to which we shall return. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Lucasmoved Amendment No. 20:
Page 2, line 38, at end insert—
"( ) No order shall be made under this section unless proper provision has been made for the independent evaluation of the effects of the project, and for the publication of that evaluation."
The noble Lord said: Many experiments will take place under the Bill, but what will become of their results? We shall spend much money, but what value shall we get from that five or 10 years down the road?
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Education is littered with experiments that have been tried and funded by the Department for Education but which have been allowed to die because nothing came out of them that was usable by other schools. There was no education pack, no route to follow and no training of other teachers; there was nothing that would allow a successful experiment to propagate in the system and nothing that would allow it even to continue in the schools in which it started. Many approaches have been started, given three or four years' funding by the education department and then left to themselves. Even if a new school wants to pick up some of the approaches, there is nothing that it can turn to.
In addition, many educational theories and practices have been propagated without ever having been properly tested and without their educational value ever having been shown. Such practices were fashionable and the thing to do. They might be what the TES or some other authority said was the right thing to think about this year. Those nostrums propagate, just as has happened in the medical profession in former years. We need to ensure in education, as the Government have done in medicine, that the practice that is propagating around the system has been shown to be beneficial.
The Government have introduced NICE, which is an innovation of which I thoroughly approve in the Department of Health. It is time that in education we had at least something to that effect, if not a body of that format. Educational research has always been extremely thin on the ground. Even when we are confronted with problems such as how best to treat special needs children or whether there are ways of educating dyslexics that are better, cheaper, quicker, more effective and more lasting than others—the Government are spending hundreds of millions of pounds on that every year—precious little research is done on which method works best. Down the years, that has cost us a great deal of money. I know that it takes some money up front to do such experiments, but unless one does the research when one is doing the innovating, at the end of the day one either has to continue with a project that one does not know has any value or one is left with a project with which one cannot do any good afterwards.
That happens right at the core of the department. Ofsted has never done any decent research into whether its reports paint an accurate picture of schools. It has never submitted itself to external verification. It is extraordinary that an institution that was set up to assess how well schools were doing has never permitted itself to be analysed in that way by academics or anyone else. There should be a culture in education—as there is in medicine and other areas—of peer review, of innovations being tested against what other people think of them, of how well practices have actually performed, and of independent views being taken of the products of research and innovation. That is the basis on which we should seek to move forward in education.

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As we come to what I hope will be the beginning of a fascinating period of experimentation and ideas in education, we should set out in the right way and with a determination that what comes out of this approach should have been evaluated independently. That independent evaluation should be available to the public, other schools, and those who wish to take a critical view of what is happening. That will allow us to learn from what we are going to do and to take forward the best, not just what appears to be the best presented, when we look at what has been done. I beg to move.
Baroness Walmsley: I rise to support Amendment No. 20 on the grounds that there is a need for proper evaluation and transparency. I also wish to speak to Amendment No. 25, which is grouped with it.
Proper evaluation and transparency are both good things, but so is accountability. The purpose of Amendment No. 25 is to ensure that the Secretary of State's decisions in relation to allowing certain schools to be exempt from education legislation are subject to parliamentary scrutiny. That will be done by introducing an obligation for the Secretary of State in England and the Assembly Cabinet Minister for Education in Wales to lay before Parliament or the Assembly, as appropriate, an annual report on the operation of the provisions of this chapter of the Bill. That would allow Members of Parliament or of the Assembly to question what has been done—that would, I hope, be done on the basis of independent evaluation—and to judge its efficacy.
In her earlier remarks, the Minister expressed support for having an opportunity for parliamentary scrutiny of innovations, so I hope that she will view these amendments with favour. What goes on in schools is of economic value. Undoubtedly, some schools will try to exploit that. It is far better that schools, rather than private companies, should be in a position to innovate. I hope that that will raise standards and disseminate best practice into other schools. But mistakes are often made when things are tried for the first time. It is therefore essential that there is an opportunity in the Bill for Parliament to assess what has been done and to give its opinion on whether that is in the best interests of our children.
When the Bill was debated in another place, it was suggested that one innovation for which schools might apply might be that of charging for their services and ending the right to free education. The Minister assured Members of another place that that was an example of an innovation that would not be allowed. However, the Minister was not forthcoming with other examples of the sort of things that would not be allowed. The noble Lord, Lord Peston, has already pressed the Minister on precisely what sort of innovations really require this legislation. Perhaps the Minister can elaborate on that when she replies. Would the Government accept a reduction in the burden of statistical returns on schools as the sort of innovation for which they are looking? It is all the
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more important that accountability to Parliament and to the Welsh Assembly, as appropriate, should be mandatory and included in the Bill.
Lord Dormand of Easington: The proposal put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, sounds fine, especially with regard to education, if I may say so. But does he agree that there is a problem in relation to the time factor? He says that the provision has to be made. That is the first thing, and that would take some time. Then there must be an independent evaluation, which, I suppose, would take even longer if it were to be of any value at all. We then come to the publication of the assessment or evaluation. There is also one other stage which the noble Lord did not mention—the consideration.
In many cases, would it not take months and months to come to a decision? The noble Lord may say that it would be well worth it, and he may be right about that. However, does he agree that, if we were to go through all those stages for all or most of the projects in education, that would present a serious obstacle to what he is proposing?
7.30 p.m.
Lord Lucas: I should like to see the noble Lord propose his system for medicine, whereby doctors would simply do whatever they wanted and would experiment on people in any way that they wanted. They would not be subject to a review of what they had done or be questioned as to the usefulness of what they had done. They would be allowed to publish a paper without peer review, and other people would then be encouraged to copy it if it happened to take their fancy. That is how it is in education. I hope that it will not be in most—
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): Perhaps the noble Lord will give way. I could not resist intervening. Can I take it that he fully supports the introduction of the National Institute for Clinical Excellence, which is designed to show that we have robust evidence of cost-effective clinical treatments?
Lord Lucas: Yes, but if the noble Lord had not been yacking to his medical colleagues on the Back Benches, he would have heard me say so.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I fear that—
Baroness Blatch: I shall be brief because I know that people are waiting to get on with the next debate. I would not normally support this type of amendment. I believe that evaluation should be carried out at school level. It seems to me that to be responsive to the parents and for validation to be carried out externally through inspection would be the right way to go.
However, I shall support both Amendments Nos. 20 and 25, first, on the grounds that what the amendments seek to achieve would flush out the legislation that acts as an inhibitor, and therefore we should all be able to answer the question that the

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Minister is unable to answer today. Secondly, the annual report to Parliament would quantify the number of applications. However, I hope that, in addition, it would include the number of schools that would apply which would discover that they did not need legislative exemption at all. Thus, we would know what quantity of work had been involved in implementing the early part of the Bill.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I apologise for rising too early. I lost my grip on how the Committee stage works during the intervention from my noble friend.
The purpose of the power to innovate is to pilot innovative proposals which might be adopted more widely through further legislation if they were successful in raising educational standards. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, that the use of the power should receive proper evaluation and that, where appropriate, that evaluation should be independent and published. I can give the Committee the assurance that, because we want to learn the lessons of innovation, we shall certainly expect good quality evaluation of projects.
However, I hope that the noble Lord will also recognise that the nature of evaluation will vary enormously, depending on the type and size of project involved, and so on. In some cases, for example, it is possible that interviews with people directly impacted will be sufficient; in others, it will require detailed performance analysis or survey work.
We want to see evaluation that is fit for its purpose, with the proposer—whether it is a school or the local education authority—putting forward the kind of evaluation that is appropriate to the project. They will have the most direct experience of the projects and will have most to learn from the experience of the lessons being put into practice.
We shall, of course, also have a keen interest in the lessons to be learned. We shall work with individual projects to ensure that good quality evaluation plans are in place to meet our need for information and to provide a basis for deciding how similar requests should be dealt with in future and whether more general legislative change would be a good thing.
It may not always be appropriate to require the provision to be in place before a project has begun. In some cases, the development of the evaluation design may need to go hand in hand with the development of the pilot project itself. However, the guidance that I have placed in the Library of the House makes it absolutely clear that applicants will be required to develop an appropriate evaluation strategy. I hope that those reassurances are helpful to Members of the Committee.
Turning to Amendment No. 25, we have also said that the power will end after four years. At that point, we shall want to review the effectiveness of the power to innovate, and so will Parliament.
In addition to what I said in reply to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, about the evaluation of projects, I want to make it clear to the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley,
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in relation to Amendment No. 25 that I agree that it is important to keep a public record of the use of the power. As I have said before, that is one of the reasons why it is important that the Secretary of State is involved in the process and can lay orders before Parliament. Her involvement ensures that, in every case where the power to innovate is used to disapply legislation, there will be a public record of exactly what has been disapplied, who the disapplication applies to and how long it will last.
I believe that means that there will already be a full parliamentary and public record of the operation within the provisions of this chapter. However, I should like to consider carefully whether Amendment No. 25 or something similar should be introduced on Report. On that basis, I hope that the noble Baroness will not move her amendment.
Baroness Walmsley: I am very encouraged by the Minister's answer. I thank her and look forward to hearing what she has say on Report.
Lord Lucas: I am very grateful for that reply. It is encouraging to see the Department for Education and Skills at last taking research seriously. I hope that that will expand into other areas of its activities. However, I am grateful for what the noble Baroness said, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 21 and 22 not moved.]
Clause 2 agreed to.
Lord Davies of Oldham: I beg to move that the House do now resume. In moving the Motion, I suggest that the Committee stage begin again not before 8.36 p.m.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House resumed.

Parkinson's Disease
7.36 p.m.
Lord Harrisonrose to ask Her Majesty's Government what care is provided for sufferers from Parkinson's disease.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, Parkinson's disease,
"is a gift that just keeps on taking".
So writes Canadian actor, Michael J Fox, in his uplifting autobiography, Lucky Man, where he retails movingly his coming out with Parkinson's at the young age of 30.
His embracing of the disease as something that has enriched his life—hence, the title, Lucky Man—is nothing short of heroic. But here in Britain every day a private tragedy is acted out by the 120,000 individuals similarly afflicted with Parkinson's, still conning their parts for a disease that locks fast minds in slow bodies. Their courage and fortitude matches Michael J Fox's

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but has no similar public arena. Tonight's debate, I hope, will throw some light on a disease that is still little understood in contemporary Britain.
For most of us, Parkinson's is a chat show, not an affliction whose symptoms are tremors, stiffness and rigidity of the limbs, poverty of movement, pain, depression, fatigue and, sometimes, loss of expression in the face and voice. There is nothing theatrical about the rictus of pain borne by Parkinson's sufferers.
Nor are the disease's consequences restricted to those sufferers. In their penumbra stand the families, friends., medics, support services, and the cherished Parkinson's Disease Society itself, serving to mitigate the worst effects of the disease on their charges. They, too, in my book, deserve Oscars.
As vice-president of the Chester and District PDS, it has been my privilege to meet and learn from this close community, dedicated to defeating Parkinson's. And victory is in the wings. The research at Frenchay Hospital in Bristol in regenerating dormant dopamine-producing cells is heartening indeed. Moreover, any team boasting Billy Graham, Muhammad Ali, the Pope and the noble Lord, Lord Merlyn-Rees, on its side should have something going for success.
What can this House do to help? Our Select Committee's recent report, wisely setting down the conditions for innovative stem cell research, was a major advance. On a lighter note, the promotion of the PDS schools project card by the education Minister, my noble friend Lady Ashton, is a useful step in improving public understanding of the disease. But more needs to be done, and the Government are in a good position to help, especially in the aftermath of the recent Budget, dedicated to putting the NHS and, I hope, Parkinson's sufferers back on their feet.
Mis-diagnosis is a major bugbear in the treatment of Parkinson's disease. As many as three out of 10 patients are mis-diagnosed, but we are desperately short of those specialist neurologists who are key to the correct diagnosis of Parkinson's. The 350 neurologists in the United Kingdom today fall woefully short of the 1,000 needed to make a compelling difference. In Britain we have one neurologist to 177,000 of the population. France boasts a ratio of one to 38,000, Holland one to 25,000 and the United States one to 20,000. Indeed, our overworked complement of 350 practising neurologists today is equivalent to the number of neurologists America had at the end of World War II. They are overworked so that in my region of Merseyside neurologists have kindly volunteered to work gratis Sunday morning and evening clinics to ensure that the Government's target of a 26-week waiting limit for new referrals is met. The new, proposed 20-week limit is the straw that could break the camel's back. It really is time for this sensible Government to invest long term in Parkinson's. It is a mammoth task. Even if we increase numbers by 5 per cent a year, it will not be until 2034 that we have our full complement of needed neurologists.
General practitioners, too, need help. The relative rarity of the disease in my view requires that each primary care trust should appoint a lead GP able to
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advise colleagues about diagnosis and referral, problems which particularly touch the young and the elderly.
Nursing specialists and welfare 'visitors, too, are vital. We need 125 more of the former and we should fund the latter. Why is it up to the local PDS branches to fund the vital welfare visitors? It is time to throw good money after good to complete the job of developing a modern, comprehensive health service.
Will my noble friend the Minister also review the Statutory Instrument changing the rules for qualifying for disability living allowance for PD sufferers? Does the Minister agree that because of the on-off syndrome associated with the disease, ability to walk, aided or unaided, should be judged over a seven-day period and not by single consultation? Can my noble friend say what the Government are doing to promote best practice among hospital and care home staff about the particular needs of Parkinson's sufferers; for example, ensuring that the vital medication is taken at the time of need and not wait for the drug round? Will the Government ensure that the smaller number of people who have young onset Parkinson's are exempted from prescription charges?
As regards brain pacemakers whose deep brain stimulation helps reduce tremors, do the Government recognise that fewer than one in 20 British patients currently benefit compared to one in three Swiss and one in I0 French? Can this situation be improved? Are the Government committed to introducing best practice from the Continent as promoted by the European Parkinson's Disease Association?
I conclude with the "Start of Coastin"' campaign of Tom Isaacs, a 33-year old sufferer who is currently walking the coast of Britain to raise awareness of Parkinson's. Is it not time that we stopped coasting on Parkinson's and accelerated help and encouragement to the lucky men and women who daily struggle so defiantly with this, the most deadly and debilitating of diseases? For Michael J Fox and all his fellow sufferers in Britain, is it not time that we got back to the future?
Lord Filkin: My Lords, it might be helpful to the House to mention that we have very limited time for the debate this evening and that if later speakers are not to suffer, it will be necessary for speeches to end when the clock turns to four minutes.
7.44 p.m.
Baroness Masham of Ilton: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, for asking this most important question. Unfortunately, I have to declare an interest, as my husband was found to have Parkinson's, but this was some time after he had had two strokes and was found to be a diabetic. While in hospital he developed a deep vein thrombosis, which he was discharged with and had to be re-admitted to another hospital as an emergency. After returning home he had a bleed in the brain from too much warfarin, which had not been adequately monitored by the GPs. I was getting desperate, and with advice from a friend who is a neurologist, I brought my

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husband to London for assessment. Parkinson's disease was diagnosed at St Mary's hospital, Paddington.
It seems that there is still a great deal to learn about this complicated condition. What triggers it? Does it lie dormant? I know several people with it. It was revealing last week to hear Michael J Fox, the American actor, who developed Parkinson's while quite young, telling his story during Parkinson's Awareness Week.
There are many tips which can be passed on, such as kicking the ankle when the Parkinson's sufferer freezes; by putting white sticks on the ground to help them lift their feet or drink iced water to help swallowing. There is a useful booklet Looking After Your Bladder in Parkinsonism. It is a joint project by the Continence Foundation, the Parkinson's Disease Society and the Royal College of Nursing.
The specialist Parkinson's trained nurse can be of immense help to colleagues, patients and their carers. Last week I was told by an academic GP that there are only two such nurses in the whole of the West Midlands. I believe that there is not one in North Yorkshire. I cannot over-emphasise the immense help and value specialist advice gives, particularly in the monitoring of drugs, which can make all the difference to Parkinson's patients.
It is very clear that in the UK we have far fewer consultant neurologists than in all other European countries for which there are available data. There are so few neurologists in this country that most hospitals do not have a neurologist who is on site, especially in the north. The management of such patients is heavily dependent on the type of hospital into which the patient is admitted. It is a post-code lottery. That is not acceptable. If there are to be advances in the treatment of Parkinson's and these are to be available to all who need it, there must be more neurology centres of excellence. The Government have shown their determination to make the NHS work by allocating more money. It must go on patient care, not management power building.
The importance of professional interaction with specialist colleagues cannot be overestimated, for such contacts are a constant source of advice and education. There must be a specialist neurology network throughout the country if people with Parkinson's disease are to get the care they need.
7.48 p.m.
Baroness Pitkeathley: My Lords, I, too, am grateful to my noble friend for giving us the opportunity to debate this important issue. I declare an interest as vice-president of both the Parkinson's Disease Society and of Carers UK.
I want to concentrate on the problems faced by those who have responsibility for caring for people with Parkinson's disease; the family members who willingly and with love provide care, often over a long period of time and often because of the particular
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physical and emotional changes which are the result of this most cruel of illnesses, at great personal cost, economically, physically and emotionally.
However, I must first acknowledge the great progress that has been made for family carers both through the unrelenting campaigning of my colleagues at Carers UK and the Parkinson's Disease Society and through the sympathetic approach adopted by this Government. For example, the earnings limit on invalid care allowance has risen from £50 to £72. Proposals are in hand to re-name ICA carers' allowance and to allow carers over the age of 65 to claim invalid care allowance for the first time. The changes will also extend the payment of the care allowance for eight weeks after the death of the person being cared for.
Then there is the carer's grant, amounting to £85 million this year, and £100 million for the next and final year, which will enable local authorities to provide breaks for carers. This has produced some really innovative developments, including joint working between social services and the NHS. Then there is the state second pension, which will give carers in receipt of ICA a credit towards the second pension. Similarly, we should not forget the Carers and Disabled Children Act 2000, which I had the honour of taking through your Lordships' House. For the first time, this legislation gives carers a right to support services.
However, we cannot deny that many carers—perhaps most—remain isolated and unsupported. Perhaps I may highlight one or two areas of difficulty. Let us take, for example, hospital discharge. The report based on carers' experiences You Can Take Him Home Now, published by Carers UK last year, found that carers were overlooked, that their needs were not assessed, and that the person for whom they cared was discharged too soon.
I turn to funding under the Carers and Disabled Children Act, which is a serious problem. The Labour Party manifesto promised such funding, but a recent survey showed that only 18 per cent of local authorities found new resources last year to implement the Act's provisions. Many of those who care for someone suffering from Parkinson's disease understand that the identification of carers by GPs is vital. The National Strategy for Carers stated that GPs should have the systems in place by April 2000. However, the deadline was later extended to April 2002. Can my noble friend the Minister tell us whether his department has provided GPs with any information in this respect?
If any justification were needed for calling for more support for carers, it was made very clear in the report published by Carers UK, Without Us. The report shows that, if we had to provide substitute care for the care that carers provide, largely free of cost, we would, as a nation, have to find another £57 billion each year—the cost of another NHS. Those new figures are 70 per cent higher than the £34 billion that we have been using for some years. They show that the average carer saves the United Kingdom £10,000 every year.

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The rise in the value of carers' support can be put down to three factors. First, the cost of replacement care increasing; secondly, the number of carers providing "significant" care having risen owing to funding for health and social care failing to keep pace with demand; and, thirdly, the fact that although more domiciliary care is provided in the community it concentrates on fewer people—with carers inevitably making up the shortfall.
The rise in the value of carers' support is a warning to policy makers about the extent to which our economy relies on the care provided by family and friends. It shows that if only a small number were to give up caring, perhaps through ill health or lack of support—who would blame any carer of someone with Parkinson's disease if he or she did so?—the economic impact would be dramatic. Given our future demographics and ageing population, it shows an urgent need for better recognition and support for carers.
7.53 p.m.
Baroness Gale: My Lords, I, too, should like to thank my noble friend Lord Harrison for bringing this important debate before the House. Parkinson's disease affects not just the sufferer but the whole family. I speak with some knowledge on how the effects of the disease can also affect members of the family who live with it every day. My father was a victim of the disease. He was diagnosed at the age of 50, although he had obviously been suffering for several years previously. At that time, in the late 1950s, there was very little knowledge, research, or understanding of Parkinson's disease. It took a long time to diagnose my father's illness. Can noble Lords imagine being ill and not knowing what is wrong—and eventually being diagnosed of an illness which cannot be cured; where GPs have little knowledge and cannot offer much help other than to prescribe pain killers; where there is no support group, and no one to turn to for advice or help?
About 10 years later I discovered that the Parkinson's Disease Society had just been formed. I remember reading a letter in a daily newspaper from a Miss Jenkins, who wrote about the society. I contacted her immediately asking for more information. She had formed the society. Her sister had Parkinson's disease. They had found there was so little information available that they resolved to do something about it. I even had a visit from Miss Jenkins one day. It was good to learn from her of the work that was being undertaken. I received much information from the society, which I always passed on to my mother. She would then take it to our GP. I recall her saying that the doctor was very interested to receive the information, as he knew very little about Parkinson's disease.
I know that times have changed. However, I should like to pay tribute to the wonderful work that the Parkinson's Disease Society is doing. Since its earliest day, it has ensured that research has been carried out and that progress has been made. There are now 286 branches with 27,000 members. Imagine now how
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much help and support those people are able to offer sufferers and their families. The research that the society carries out has brought new hope for sufferers, although, as we know, there is still a long way to go.
The situation has improved. On the medical side, more help is available to alleviate the symptoms associated with Parkinson's. Carers are now available to assist the family looking after a sufferer, and more financial help is available. But there is still much more that can be done to alleviate the problems, and to work with the sufferer and the family to help them to have a better quality of life.
The Parkinson's Disease Society is calling for more investment to ensure that there are more physiotherapists, speech and language therapists, and occupational therapists. It says that the provision of support for therapists is uneven and that national standards must be put in place and enforced. If this request alone could be granted, I am certain that it would be of tremendous help to sufferers.
In conclusion, much has been achieved over the years in the help and support available for the sufferers of Parkinson's disease. It is to be hoped that a cure may be found one day. In the mean time, every effort must be made to give as much help and support as possible so that sufferers and their families can be helped to live as normal a life as possible within the constraints of medical and community support.
7.56 p.m.
Lord Williamson of Horton: My Lords, what I shall say in this short debate is mainly about the need to ensure that the potential new research and treatments for Parkinsons's disease—in particular, a very recent development—are followed through and adequately funded. That does not mean that I underrate the importance of the work being undertaken and planned for the care of Parkinson's sufferers; indeed, we have about 120,000 people in the United Kingdom with the disease. It is clear that there are problems with both the patient and the carer, which we must not forget.
However, I turn to the point that I wish to draw to the Minister's attention. The noble Lord will have noticed the recent announcement by the North Bristol NHS Trust of a pilot study at Frenchay Hospital, which may provide a breakthrough in the treatment of Parkinson's disease. There have been many false dawns in the treatment of this disease; and, in my view, that makes it all the more important that we should follow up these treatments, which—admittedly, in a very small sample—have shown a marked improvement in the symptoms for the patients treated.
The team at the Frenchay Hospital was led, by Steven Gill, a consultant neurosurgeon, with Peter Heywood, a consultant neurologist, Nik Patel, a neurosurgeon, and Karen O'Sullivan, who is a specialist nurse. It gives me pleasure to mention the specialist nurses, who are sometimes—but not in this case—forgotten. The treatment involves planting a catheter in a specific region of the brain that controls movement and is deficient in dopamine. Without dopamine the nerve cells cannot properly transmit

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messages to the body, and this results in deterioration in movement. A pump then transmits to this area of the brain GDNF (glial-derived neurotrophic factor), which is a natural growth factor required for the development and maintenance of nerve cells producing dopamine.
There has been a clear improvement in the symptoms of the patients treated, and there is evidence from other sources that GDNF can block the degeneration of nerve cells. We can say that it can work, and that it has worked. What is important now is to move on to a larger scale trial because we do not know if the improvement is sustainable, or whether there may be unintended consequences.
I should say that I have a personal interest. I recently spent 10 days in the neurological ward of the Frenchay Hospital, under the care of Dr Heywood, which increased my interest in the possibilities of a more effective treatment of Parkinson's disease. Although, in some ways, 10 days in Frenchay Hospital was more interesting than 10 days in your Lordships' House, inevitably I spent some time playing cards with patients suffering from Parkinson's disease. I was, therefore, particularly pleased to see the comment made by Roger Nelson, who received the new treatment:
"I got to the stage where I could not deal or shuffle the cards, but now I can fan the cards, pick them out and play again".
I understand that the research and pilot study have been funded by the Parkinson's Disease Society. I thank the society for that. But such charitable organisations are not wealthy and the point of my intervention today is to draw to the Minister's attention that, in my view, there is an obligation on the Department of Health to ensure that the next stage of the study does not fail because of lack of funding. I do not say that it should necessarily be funded by the Government, but by one means or another—perhaps by potential support from medical foundations or other organizations—the Minister should take care that this small-scale study does not stop at this stage, but has enough funding to go on to show whether it can provide even more benefits for those suffering from Parkinson's disease.
8 p.m.
Lord Brookman: My Lords, I agree with other noble Lords that my noble friend Lord Harrison is to be complimented and thanked for raising the subject of Parkinson's disease, with particular reference to care and carers.
I declare an interest. I have an elder brother who suffers from Parkinson's disease. Knowing of his acute problems and the wonderful support given by his wife and family is one of the key reasons for putting my name down to speak.
Parkinson's disease awareness week was held in April. The admirable organisation, the Parkinson's Disease Society, founded in 1969 by a carer, Mali Jenkins—a People's Peer if ever there was one—makes
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a telling point that Parkinson's disease affects all aspects of daily life for the individual and for the family who must also live with the condition.
Our hearts go out to all who suffer from the disease— some 120,000 in the UK alone—and to the tens of thousands who live with the disease by being partners, families and children of a sufferer. We who see loved ones suffering are unable to comprehend fully the magnitude of the problem facing those living with and caring for those suffering from the dreadful disease.
This debate gives us the opportunity to highlight the work of the Parkinson's Disease Society. Its guiding principles of research, support, information and advice require our support and that of the Government. As the society states:
"It is estimated that the current level of people over the age of 60 would increase by some 53 per cent by 2030—12.2 million to 18.7 million".
Clearly, that will affect the number suffering with Parkinson's disease and other neurological conditions.
I am in no way a medical person, so reading some of the research undertaken by the society is very luminous. Currently there is no cure for the disease, but as research continues there will always be hope. Medication—that is drug treatment—and surgical interventions together with other therapies can and do play a part. But sadly serious shortfalls in neurologists, other specialists and Parkinson's disease nurse specialists make life difficult for those working in this area. To the best of my knowledge no nurse visits my brother. I believe that one should be available but it could be that Welsh stubbornness plays its part in that.
Investment is required in those areas, and I hope that the well-received announcements by the Chancellor in his Budget will ensure that those objectives are met. We all agree that Parkinson's disease is a dreadful illness and that although much is happening, and much has happened, more adequate support for those suffering from the disease is essential. The wonderful carers, specialist nurses, neurologists and other specialists deserve nothing less. I sincerely hope that the Government, working closely with the society and others, will bring about a better life and a better way forward for people like my brother. I await with interest to hear the views of the Minister.
8.4 p.m.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: My Lords, I declare an interest as a hospice doctor who has cared for patients with end-stage Parkinson's disease, some of whom have been remarkably young and alarmingly rigid and unable to move.
My points relate to specialist services in the new NHS and to the importance of research as well as education and training. The care of patients depends crucially on an accurate diagnosis. If the diagnosis is wrong, the care will not be right. Diagnostic error is surprisingly common, to quote the textbook of the noble Lord, Lord Walton of Detchant. It requires neurologically-trained doctors to make an accurate

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diagnosis. Parkinson's disease is a common condition. One in 100 people over 65 and one in 50 people over 80 will suffer from it. Sadly, one can see that instance reflected among the Members of this House.
There is an alarming shortage of neurologists. The noble Lord, Lord Brookman, spoke of his relative. Wales is even worse off compared with the rest of the UK. We have only one neurologist for every 277,000 of the population, which means that France, which has the next lowest ratio in Europe, has more than seven times as many neurologists per head of population than Wales.
There is a shortage of fully-resourced specialist centres for treatment and for research. Levodopa., the drug that was thought to be the gold standard in the 1970s, is effective. Prior to Levodopa the life expectancy of patients was, on average, nine years, but sadly the effectiveness of the drug wanes after five to 10 years. The situation is worse in young people. Patients whose disease starts under the age of 40 have a much more rapid failure of levodopa, so that by the time they have spent six years on treatment 100 per cent have complications from treatment and no longer benefit. It is important to note that one in 20 patients with the disease is under 40 at the time of diagnosis.
Many noble Lords will have seen the film "Awakenings" or read the book by Oliver Sachs that describes the great difference that dopamine-type drugs made in the post-viral Parkinsonism that was seen in New York. Levodopa and the other drugs have nasty side-effects, but there are exciting horizons in combining drugs with new delivery systems, including ways of delivering them through neurosurgery, as we have already heard.
Neurosurgery is not that expensive. I have done some cost calculations on deep-brain stimulation with the help of Mr Gill from Bristol. About 10 per cent of patients with Parkinson's disease may benefit from deep-brain stimulation, but it is offered to only about 0.1 per cent because of financial constraints. Patients' quality-of-life scores improve by 70 per cent and patients post-operatively have about 60 to 70 per cent of their day mobile, whereas it is only about 10 per cent pre-operatively.
The costings are that the deep-brain stimulator costs between £10,000 and £12,000; the surgery and support cost between £10,000 and £15,000; and the battery, costing £8,000, has to be replaced after five to eight years, giving a total cost of between £30,000 and £35,000. The drug requirements of patients fall by about 50 per cent post-operatively. The medication costs alone for a patient over five years who does not have surgery total about £80,000. So there is a significant saving of at least £5,000 per patient over five years. That is comparing the drug costs with the surgery costs and before one counts the savings in care costs. I point out that not only are specialist services and research needed, but that such a treatment may save costs in the long term.
My final plea is as a hospice doctor. Nowhere in the UK is there 50 per cent funding of hospices. Mostly, they are charitably funded from cancer care charities.
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Sadly, that means that Parkinson's disease patients sometimes miss out because cancer patients tend to be taken as a priority over those with neurological disease. I urge the Government to look at specialist services as a saving and not as a major cost.
8.10 p.m.
Lord Turnberg: My Lords, I want to concentrate my remarks on the need for research into this extremely distressing condition. Here I express an interest as scientific adviser to the Association of Medical Research Charities, of which the Parkinson's Disease Society is a member.
The fact is that despite an enormous amount of research effort we still have few clues about why the disease occurs, and our current treatments, I am afraid, are somewhat limited. It is only by more basic research that we can hope to break through this barrier of ignorance. And of course there are some fascinating glimpses of greater understanding and new treatments.
The genes which contribute to the disease are being elucidated and the biochemical disturbances underlying it are gradually being clarified. New forms of treatment—injection of stem cells of various sorts into the damaged areas of the brain; infusions of a neural growth factor, as we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, are proving interesting; electrical stimulation—all offer some hope. But there is an awful long way to go before we know whether any of those will really be successful for large numbers of patients for any length of time. And meanwhile we must press on with the research.
Yet there are many barriers to research which we have to overcome, and I do not just mean funding. Of course we need more funding. But I want to concentrate specifically on the barriers put up by public attitudes to research. While the 120,000 or so patients with Parkinson's disease and their relatives and carers are desperate for the research, others are more antipathetic. For example, there is antipathy to research using animals, when we know that animal research is able to give us enormous insights into the disease. The recently developed genetically modified mouse model of Parkinson's is an invaluable tool to study mechanisms of the disease and to try new treatments. But animal research has come under fire from a range of quarters.
Then there has been the antagonism to research using human embryonic stem cells, which again offers enormous potential for treatment. Though your Lordships' House has done a major service in its rational recommendations on stem cell research, there remains a little anxiety that that area of research may be threatened.
Perhaps a bigger threat is the fall-out from the Alder Hey affair, which has posed a major threat to the acquisition of human tissues on which so much important research depends. The Redfern report, written against a highly charged background, has caused—perhaps inadvertently—untold damage to research which is dependent on human tissues.

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There are a whole range of other barriers to research, but I wanted to concentrate on those which relate to public attitudes. My question for the Minister will perhaps give him an opportunity to say what I know he really believes. Do the Government take these threats to research—the animal issue, the human tissue issue and the stem cell issue—seriously? I look forward to his response.
8.12 p.m.
Lord Addington: My Lords, it is very difficult in four minutes to try to sum up the attitude of this debate, so I shall not try. But this debate has shown that whatever increase in funding is given to the National Health Service can certainly be spent very easily. Also, when we are calling for extra resources we are generally asking for extra people to be employed and for them to be better trained.
We then come on to the area which interests me most, and I shall try to address my remarks to that, though I feel slightly guilty because it is not the noble Lord's department to which my comments will be directed. Therefore I charge him with the duty of passing on to the Department for Work and Pensions my comments in relation to the tests it is implementing to allow a person to claim the lower mobility rate for the disability living allowance.
One of the criteria in the test is that one should be unable to go outside without support. Unfortunately, people with Parkinson's, as with other conditions such as multiple sclerosis, have good days and bad days; there are periods when the disease is particularly active and periods when it is not. That means that the assessment of medical need will have to be conducted over a period of time. It means that there will have to be some form of medical input or at least a reference to medical records over a long period of time. That will make it more difficult for people to be correctly assessed for the right allowances which the Government say people should receive.
Will the Department of Health tell the Department for Work and Pensions to be flexible? The current proposals going through the parliamentary system must have the capacity to be flexible to give help to the people it is intended should receive it. Unless we manage to do that—this is merely an example of the practice—unless we can break through those Chinese walls, we will end up misspending money. A problem in one department can have knock-on costs in another.
If somebody is unsure on their feet and every second day falls over, we will end up treating them on the National Health Service. Thus the budgets may be eaten up in casualty departments. That may be a trite way of putting it, but the principle is generally accepted.
When it comes to dealing with these problems we have to look sideways as well. There are knock-on benefits from having more therapists—particularly physiotherapists—trained within the health service, even if a high percentage of their time is put aside for dealing with such conditions as Parkinson's disease, as
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we will still end up with greater resources for investment in other parts of the health service. I hope that the Government, when looking to help in this area, will always keep a weather eye on those knock-on benefits.
8.16 p.m.
Earl Howe: My Lords, if this short debate has brought home one message, it is surely the devastating nature of Parkinson's disease and the scale of the suffering it causes. Some 120,000 people in this country are currently afflicted with it. That statistic alone should make us appreciate how vital it is that timely diagnosis and effective treatment should be accessible on the NHS, and I join other noble Lords in expressing my appreciation to the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, for giving us the opportunity to debate those issues.
Parkinson's presents doctors with an inherent difficulty: there is no clinical test for it. Misdiagnosis, both false positive and false negative, can, and frequently does, occur. That is perhaps not surprising given that some of the initial symptoms of PD are shared by other neurological conditions. But that difficulty is compounded by the fact that diagnosing Parkinson's is outside the range of expertise of many, if not most, GPs because the number of patients suffering from it per practice will on average be very few. That means that most GPs as a matter of routine refer suspected cases of Parkinson's to a neurological specialist.
The waiting time to see a specialist is often long. We are very short indeed of neurologists in this country, as most noble Lords have said. At present there are only 350 of them and of those only around 60 have specific expertise in Parkinson's. That is about half the number we should have in relation to the size of our population and several times fewer per head of population than many other European countries. Like other noble Lords, I hope that the Minister can comment on that issue.
We are also short of nurse specialists who give a vital service to patients and their families. The care of a Parkinson's patient is not just about providing appropriate medication; it is also about making sure that he or she receives emotional support as well as all the right information about how to manage the disease. The better the support, the longer a patient can maintain independence and the lower the cost of care to the public purse. What plans are there to increase the number of specialist nurses?
The Social Policy Ageing and Information Network reported last year that the lives of 1 million elderly people are at risk because they are not getting basic care and support at home and there are too few places in suitable residential care homes. That leads to nearly 700,000 delayed discharges from hospitals every year. The Government have provided specific funding to sort out such delays, but I doubt whether the sums earmarked will go very far towards funding the necessary degree of long-term support and social care for those very vulnerable individuals who cannot look after themselves.

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Setting aside delayed discharges, hospital is not always the best place to be a Parkinson's disease patient. Many sufferers reported that hospital staff simply do not appreciate that medication for Parkinson's is time critical. The consequences of delaying medication even briefly can be extremely serious. I too should like to pay tribute to the Parkinson's Disease Society which has done so much to raise awareness about the disease and to provide information and support to patients. The unnecessary errors in the treatment of Parkinson's disease patients in hospital have been highlighted by the society as one example of the need for awareness-raising in the broadest sense.
Like other noble Lords, I look forward to the publication of the national service framework. I wish that that could take place sooner than 2005. However, the longer-term future for PD treatment looks exciting. A number of advances emerging from research, including deep-brain stimulation, new drugs, neurosurgery by robot, brain tissue transplants and recent discoveries in genetics provide real hope that this distressing condition will one day be overcome. I hope that the UK—indeed, the NHS—will be in the vanguard of harnessing proven advances in treatment to the benefit of patients.
8.20 p.m.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I echo the words of other noble Lords in thanking my noble friend Lord Harrison for initiating this debate. The fact that so many noble Lords spoke suggests that the debate has been well worth while and I am sorry that the time available is so short.
My noble friend Lord Harrison described well the experience of people with Parkinson's disease. My noble friend Lord Brookman reminded us of the impact on their loved ones. My noble friend Lord Harrison spoke about the close community dedicated to conquering the disease and to helping and supporting those who suffer from it. They are a large number of people. It is estimated that there are approximately 18 new cases per 100,000 people each year and that more than 120,000 people in the UK have Parkinson's disease.
It is also clear that there are big challenges to face over diagnosis, speedy referral, appropriate services and appropriate support. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, referred to the national service framework for longterm conditions, which will give us a clear framework to deal with diagnosis, rapid referral and appropriate services.
In February 2001, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State announced the development of a national service framework for long-term conditions. It will have a particular focus on people with neurological conditions and brain and spinal injury, including services for people with epilepsy, multiple sclerosis, Parkinson's disease, motor neurone disease and other similar conditions. We intend to consult a wide range of stakeholders—that will be a feature throughout the development of national service
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frameworks. Already, voluntary and professional organisations, including the Parkinson's Disease Society, patients, carers and experts have been involved in the early scoping work.
The noble Earl, Lord Howe, expressed disappointment about the timetable. I, too, wish that we could introduce national service frameworks more quickly, but we must recognise that there must be a proper timetable. We must ensure that the service is able to take on new responsibilities that will be placed on it. The importance of national service frameworks cannot be underestimated. Their implementation should ensure that we get consistency, good quality services and reduced regional variations and inequalities in access to those services. In the long run, people suffering from Parkinson's disease will undoubtedly benefit from those improvements. But, of course, I understand the frustrations of those who wish that the national service frameworks could have been introduced earlier than 2005.
Several noble Lords, including my noble friends Lord Brookman and Lord Harrison, the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, and the noble Earl, Lord Howe, raised the question of the number of neurologists. There is no question that we have an acute shortage of neurologists. We have set out clear plans to increase the number of consultants generally. Of course, within that, there will be an increase in the number of neurologists. We have already announced a increase of up to 15 specialist registrars in neurology for 2002–04. The long-term conditions care group workforce team is considering a workforce strategy to underpin the national service frameworks to which I referred.
An additional 140 trained specialists will he available to take up consultant posts in neurology by 2009. That is a significant increase, but I recognise that noble Lords would want us to go further. Without giving any commitment, the national service framework and the workforce planning that will need to go alongside will give us a further opportunity to consider those figures.
Of course, although consultant neurologists are vital, it is not just doctors who are needed. I was glad that several noble Lords—in particular, the noble Baroness, Lady Masham of Ilton—referred to the critical importance of specialist nurses. The first specialist Parkinson's disease nurses in the NHS were appointed in 1989. Let me place on record the Government's tribute to the work of such nurses. They are traditionally developed and initially funded by the Parkinson's Disease Society, with the NHS taking over funding after one or two years. The role of the nurse is to co-ordinate the care of those with the condition and provide a reliable source of information and support. Such nurses are instrumental in raising awareness of education and training. There is no doubt that they are making a wonderful impact by supporting and improving the lives of people affected by Parkinson's disease.
I also listened with great interest to what was said about general practitioners and their skills in this area. Again, the national service framework will help, but it

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is also worth mentioning our initiative to encourage GPs to develop special clinical interests. That is an area of great potential and I hope that primary care trusts will take that to heart as they develop their plans for the future.
The noble Earl, Lord Howe, raised the issue of residential care, as he frequently does. The new incentive systems that we propose for delayed discharges and the increase in the personal social services budget for the next three years will enhance the viability of care homes. We may just touch on that issue again next Wednesday.
Several noble Lords, including my noble friends Lady Gale and Lord Brookman, mentioned the Parkinson's Disease Society. I have already referred to the immensely valuable work that it is undertaking, but that allows me to pay tribute to Mary Baker, its previous leader. What tremendous work she did. It is good that she is now President of the European Parkinson's Disease Association. I am sure that what she did in the UK will now be done in Europe. I pity the bureaucrats of Brussels—but not much. Her successor, Linda Kelly, is taking on the good work and we offer her every support.
We have no intention to extend the current exemption arrangements for prescription charges. More than 85 per cent of NHS prescription items are dispensed free of charge, and we think that that is the best approach. Also, those who pay prescription charges can seek help under the NHS low income scheme or through purchase of a prescription prepayment certificate.
My noble friend Lady Pitkeathley mentioned carers. No one in the country knows more about the issue than my noble friend. She paid tribute to our national carers strategy—but of course, she played such a crucial role in its development and continuing improvement. She mentioned the Carers and Disabled Children Act 2000, which she took through your Lordships' House. It is an important framework and foundation for the continued development and support of carers. My noble friend kindly gave me notice that she would raise the issue of the survey carried out by the Association of Directors of Social Services of progress in the assessment of carers. I know that it expresses some disappointment about the progress that has been made. We shall study the survey results with great care. My noble friend asked about funding, and the survey results will be helpful when we consider future spending plans in the 2002 spending review.
I accept that we need to know more about the identification of carers by GPs. Given the time available, I offer to write to the noble Baroness setting out the position in respect of that important issue.
The noble Lord, Lord Addington, raised the issue of the Social Security (Disability Living Allowance) (Amendment) Regulations 2002 and the specific issue of flexibility in relation to good and bad days. I shall discuss it with the Department for Work and Pensions and come back to the noble Lord. I am aware of the issue, but I would like to consider it in more detail.
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The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, raised the important issue of palliative care. She will know that, in England, we are committed to matching the money raised by the voluntary sector with the money that the NHS spends, including grants to the voluntary sector. I do not know the position in Wales, but we are aware of the funding issues. I recognise the competitiveness of the arena in which voluntary organisations must raise funds, and I spoke to the Association of Fundraisers in Palliative Care on Sunday. It is important that the hospice movement should maintain its independence. The fact that it raises so much money enhances that independence.
My noble friend Lord Turnberg raised several important issues relating to research and spoke about barriers. I shall respond on the issue of animal research. I have been distressed by the activities of some people in this country who have sought, through the most disgraceful methods, to hinder, threaten and intimidate people going about their lawful business and conducting research that will have an enormous impact on the improvement of conditions for many people.
Noble Lords will know that the Government have taken action. We have legislated, and we support properly regulated research that attempts to reduce and minimise the number of animals used in research. Ultimately, however, I am convinced that we must use animals, and I offer my wholehearted support to the reputable people who do that. We cannot allow a situation in which the people who do such research are intimidated. The sort of intimidation which places like Huntingdon Life Sciences have had to put up with only fills me with tremendous admiration for the people who work in such laboratories.
We had an interesting discussion about the research that is now available. We are considering the clinical effectiveness of deep-brain stimulation. The MRC is funding a research trial, and the Parkinson's Disease Society has also put a considerable amount of money into that trial. I understand that the trial will run for five years, to 2006, with a further five-year follow-up period. Unfortunately, proper, robust research takes time, but we must do it to inform the future development of services.
The Frenchay Hospital research is extremely interesting. As the noble Lord, Lord Williamson of Horton, suggested, it may provide a breakthrough in the treatment of the condition. The preliminary results show a marked improvement in the symptoms of all five patients. My understanding is that it is the first time that such improvement has occurred in patients with a chronic neurological disease following the infusion of a growth factor.
I understand that the trust concerned receives a considerable amount of money from the NHS research and development fund. However, I am happy to examine the funding in more detail to see whether there are any problems. I shall come back to the noble Lord on that.
Time is against me. It has been an invaluable debate, and there are more things that we must do. In particular, I listened carefully to what was said about

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guidance and training to enable speedy diagnosis, referral and provision of services. We must consider workforce planning, and the NSF will be helpful when we examine staff numbers. Above all, we must ensure that the NHS provides the sensitive support services that are required by people who suffer from Parkinson's disease.
I end by congratulating my noble friend on raising so many important issues. I am grateful to all noble Lords who spoke. Undoubtedly, our debate will inform the development of policy in the department, and I shall make sure that the relevant columns of Hansard are brought to the attention of those working on the national service framework.

Education Bill
8.36 p.m.
House again in Committee.
Clause 3 [Variation or revocation of orders under Section 2]:
[Amendment No. 23 not moved.]
Clause 3 agreed to.
Clause 4 [Applications for orders under Section 2]:
[Amendment No. 24 not moved.]
Clause 4 agreed to.
[Amendment No. 25 not moved.]
Baroness Blatchmoved Amendment No. 26:
Before Clause 5, insert the following new clause—
"AUTOMATIC EXEMPTIONS FROM CURRICULUM AND PAY AND CONDITIONS PROVISIONS
(1) Regulations shall designate curriculum or pay or conditions provisions as attracting exemptions for all maintained schools, subject to subsection (2).
(2) Regulations may prescribe circumstances in which a school or category of schools will not benefit from automatic exemption under subsection (1), in which case section 6 shall apply.
(3) The regulations in subsections (1) and (2) shall be subject to affirmative resolution."
The noble Baroness said: In moving Amendment No. 26, I shall also speak to Amendment No. 32.
The amendment would allow for exemption from curriculum and pay and conditions provisions for all schools, subject to regulations made by the Secretary of State that would circumscribe the schools or categories of school that would not benefit from that freedom. Any regulations that came before the House would do so under the affirmative resolution procedures.
The regulations referred to in subsection (1) would set the framework within which freedom would be allowed—for example, in schools in which a broad and balanced curriculum was to be retained or for named subjects that would not be available for exemption, depending on the view of the Secretary of State, and aspects of pay and conditions provisions that were not for relaxation, modification or alteration.
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The amendment would, in a more limited field, advance the proposal that schools should he free to manage themselves, unless there is a concern about them. The amendment is not seeking full exemption from all curriculum provisions, although the best-performing schools should be given more freedom, a point made earlier by the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp of Guildford. The very best schools, which come through inspections with flying colours, would like more freedom and more relaxation of national curriculum requirements.
Nor does the amendment seek full derogation from all pay and conditions provisions. It would build on Clause 6, which we will discuss later, by allowing the Secretary of State to propose exemption from some curriculum or pay and conditions rules that apply to all schools.
Secondly, it allows the Secretary of State to publish open and objective criteria such as, for example, defining a "failing school" under which schools or categories of school should not qualify for exemption. Perhaps I may give an unlikely example. The department might say that all schools should be exempt from the need to teach the maths curriculum as regards algebra, but that the schools specialising in maths would not be exempt.
It would be for the Secretary of State to determine what did and did not qualify for exemption. The circumstances should be objective, published and automatic. The discretionary powers being sought by the Government in Section 6 would apply only if a school or category of school fell foul of the objective criteria which would have been set out.
It does not remove the discretionary power of the department under Clause 6, but it writes into law an assumption that exemptions would confer general freedom in all cases, limited only by objective criteria that had been published and well understood. Clause 6 would still give the Government power to waive the limitations, even in the case of a school or schools which were within the category described as not exempt. However, on first reading, the procedure under Clause 6 seems excessively, almost perversely, complex. Again, that will be the subject of later amendments.
The amendment would introduce simpler, clearer and more open procedures which would be to the benefit of innovation and would at the same time drastically reduce the bureaucracy inherent in the Government's proposals. I have deliberately referred to what the amendment does not do. Therefore, I hope that in response the Minister will refrain from any arguments that might have been put forward by officials as regards what my amendment is meant to achieve.
It was important to say what the amendment does not do because I know that people become worried. We are keen to give the Secretary of State the powers to circumscribe the use of the power so that all the area which the Secretary of State deems not to he made

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available for exemption will be determined by Parliament under the affirmative resolution procedure. I beg to move.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: While we on these Benches support the notion of bringing the criteria out into the open, in general we are not supportive of the whole concept of earned autonomy. We believe that it goes much too far in the direction of giving successful schools the right to innovate, whereas that right needs to be broader.
We are unhappy at the degree to which already the specialist schools' programme tends to put powers and, above all, money into the hands of the successful schools. We see this measure as yet another aspect of encouragement; making it easier for successful schools but leaving the average schools in a more difficult position. We have reservations about the general issue of earned autonomy. If this is the way in which the Government want to go, we would like to see all provisions brought out into the open.
Lord Dearing: I intervene to support the reservations expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp. Perhaps I may discuss Clause 6 in this context. We are saying, "We will reward you successful schools by removing the national curriculum requirement from you". I argue that there is no need to remove the national curriculum requirements from successful schools because they are succeeding. Why intervene? Why change things? We have a success.
The place where greater freedom is most needed is in those schools which are not succeeding. Perhaps the head teacher, with the support of the local authority, has some good ideas to respond to the particular needs of the children in his or her school which will require greater flexibility in the curriculum. I do not want to speculate on particular conditions, but let us suppose, say, that the school was one of ethnic minority. A motivation might then be enhanced if the school had a greater opportunity to respond to the culture of those children. I tend to believe that the proposal is perverse.
Secondly, to the extent that successful schools can depart from the curriculum, to the extent that they are successful and can change the terms and conditions and change pay, there is an even greater risk that the best teachers will be attracted to those successful schools and away from the schools which most need the best teachers.
I ask the Government to think carefully about whether the national curriculum is unfit for the best schools and fit only for the less successful schools and whether it is the case that the national curriculum has served us well over the years and that we should remove it only where we are clear that to do so is necessary to enhance the performance of the children in a school.
8.45 p.m.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I thought it might be helpful to Members of the Committee if I commented
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on the purpose behind the concept of earned autonomy, particularly in the light of the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp. We have a school system which is accountable and one in which we can monitor individual school performance. We have described that as allowing us to intervene in inverse proportion to success.
Within that framework, we want to entrust our most successful and well-led schools with additional freedoms and flexibilities so that they have more control over the way in which they are run. These greater freedoms and flexibilities will relate to certain areas of the national curriculum and teachers' pay and conditions. However, I would make it clear to Members of the Committee that performance targets, accountability, including Ofsted inspection, and effective teacher performance management arrangements will remain in place. Schools will also be required to teach the basics and offer a broad and balanced curriculum.
The clauses are intended to ensure that within certain parameters this greater freedom will build on the professionalism that we know exists within the school workforce and help us to consider what further flexibilities may benefit the system as a whole.
I say to the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, that it is important to recognise that that is a different concept from that of the power to innovate, which is by its nature an opportunity for any school to come forward. This measure is about giving autonomy which is permanent and which will be as far as is possible automatic. Therefore, it is important to differentiate the two.
I now turn to specific amendments. It is particularly true for the provisions under earned autonomy, where they will apply by right, that we look at our successful schools. We have identified the areas of the curriculum and teachers' pay and conditions as being those where the freedoms could apply. Given the nature of those freedoms, we want to be particularly clear that they are given to schools in the best possible position to make use of them in the interests of their pupils.
We also believe that the prospect of earning greater autonomy could be a helpful incentive for improvement. However, at this stage we of course want to proceed with caution. I believe that given the nature of the flexibilities we should look to schools which have good leadership and management and achieve a satisfactory standard for qualification for the earned autonomy.
We have said that we intend to consult fully on the detailed criteria. We intend to make them challenging to provide schools with incentives and to ensure that the flexibilities are used wisely. Over time, the proportion of eligible schools will grow as systems improve.
We believe that that is the right approach, complementing the innovation provisions under Chapter 1 of the Bill. We see the schools which earn autonomy as developing ideas so that over time all schools benefit from the success of the policy. None the less, I say to the noble Baroness that in the light of the

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debate I am prepared to look further at the detail of the criteria and to consider whether detailed adjustments might be made so that more schools are eligible.
I turn to Amendments Nos. 26 and 32. They also propose that regulations relating to the curriculum or pay and conditions flexibilities and the circumstances in which schools would not benefit must be debated in both Houses. With respect, I would remind the Committee that the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee was content with our approach. Given that we intend to undertake a full consultation, noble Lords will understand that we do not believe that it is necessary to add additional layers to the process, which the amendment would require, and thus possibly use parliamentary time less wisely.
I hope that, in the light of those comments and my earlier commitment, the noble Baroness will recognise that we envisage a system that will provide incentives to achieve success and will feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Blatch: I am grateful to the noble Baroness for the way in which she has responded to the amendment. Certainly I accept with much gratitude the fact that the noble Baroness will look again at the criteria.
I had understood that the target originally set by the Government was to be only 10 per cent of all schools. That is a little disturbing because it presupposes that 90 per cent of our schools are in some way unable to qualify. I cannot think of anything that would disqualify, say, the 20, 30 or 40 per cent below the top decile. We have some high-performing schools in the upper quartile of all schools. The notion that the criteria would disqualify 90 per cent of schools and allow through only 10 per cent strikes me as an extremely cautious approach.
The noble Lord, Lord Dearing, has expressed considerable reservations. To an extent, I understand his words about the national curriculum. In the face of a great deal of opposition, I have always defended the introduction of the national curriculum. I can recall the pre-national curriculum days when some schools were allowing children to leave at 16 years old without ever having studied a science subject. Indeed, in some schools there were children who had never learnt maths and English. Some quite horrifying stories were told at the time. For those reasons, I always thought that the introduction of the national curriculum was right.
However, I would be the first to say that the initial introduction of the national curriculum caused enormous tensions within schools. It was highly prescriptive and it stifled innovation and professional flexibility. I believe that there are a number of schools, mostly the more successful ones, which feel inhibited or even held back by the requirements of the national curriculum. Therefore there is scope for allowing the highest performing schools, those that continue to pass through the inspection system with flying colours, a little more freedom. We ought to be able to trust such schools to deliver the kind of education that not only
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benefits the pupils in their care but which would not go down the road of becoming irresponsible. I understand the noble Lord's thinking on this issue.
However, in response to his point that if successful schools were given such autonomy they would then act as a magnet for the most successful teachers, I have to say that in the real world those schools are already a magnet for the best teachers. The most ambitious and able teachers gravitate towards the schools that give them the greatest professional flexibility and freedom. I am not sure that that is an effective argument against the proposal.
I am glad that the Government will look again at the criteria, although there is some tension in their words. On the one hand they talk about setting criteria that would allow through a certain number of schools, but on the other they refer to an automatic qualification. However, once the criteria have been set then, as I understand it, any school which meets those criteria under an automatic system would automatically qualify for the freedoms set out in the clause. If that is the case, introducing targets would not be appropriate because the number of schools that would qualify would be the number that qualified—because they met the criteria. However, that is a detail.
I await the Government's further thinking on this matter. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 5 [Interpretation of Chapter 2]:
Lord Pestonmoved Amendment No. 27:
Page 4, line 6, leave out "performance" and insert "educational performance including its efficiency"
The noble Lord said: Amendments Nos. 27 and 28 are technical and have been tabled to seek clarification. The Bill uses the word "performance". The first amendment seeks to find out what the Government mean by that. I suggest the alternative of,
"educational performance including its efficiency".
The first part is obvious. Is the Bill about educational performance rather than any other performance? The second part on efficiency has been included because I understand that if a school performs well, it will get certain benefits. The test of performance is very important and I am sure that almost everyone in the field now uses the expression "value added", an expression that is almost vulgar but one which is central to economics. That concept is the one that matters in this area.
A school that is highly selective, with many good kids, and does well with them is unimpressive, but a school that is not selective, with many difficult children, and does well is fantastically successful. To that end, I want to ask my noble friend on the Front Bench precisely what the Government have in mind in this whole area.
Whatever may be our view of this part of the Bill in general, it is important to ensure that the criteria to be are applied are not biased in what would be an absurd direction; in other words, whatever else we arc talking about, we are certainly talking about offering

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incentives to do well educationally with the children in place in any school. The measure required for that is to ascertain what a school adds to the education of those children. Let me add that my concept of educational performance includes life enhancement as an important aspect. That, in summary, sets out my first question to my noble friend.
The second question I wish to put concerns the word "leadership", because there is much more to a school than simply leadership. I have always thought of a school, as I have always thought of a department in a university, as a co-operative enterprise. The people are all in it together. The way to judge the enterprise is not to refer to the great star of a particular department but rather to what do those people do as a joint group of teachers? I wonder whether the Government share that view. Within that, what matters is not only leadership but management more generally. Does my noble friend agree with that?
I wish to raise one other matter, although I am sorry to have to do so at this late hour. I am sure that my noble friend is aware that education is another area which is immensely biased against women. The number of women in senior posts is disproportionately low compared with the number of women who come into education as teachers. Far fewer women than men are promoted to senior positions. I wonder whether people in education wriggle away from this by referring to "leadership" rather than something else. They may say, "Women are not natural leaders. We can see that around your Lordships' House all the time". As someone who has been a great campaigner for the equality of women, I am a little worried about it. We need to find a form of words that will not carry on that bias against women.
Lastly, I raise a minor technical point. I am a little worried about the whole of this proposal in connection with a rather obvious question. Let us assume that a school has been given a special status as a result of a particular "leader", as stated in the Bill. What will happen if that excellent leader leaves the school? If the quality of the school depends entirely on its leadership, will it then lose its status? The idea is ridiculous, but that seems to be what it says in the Bill.
I have put these matters forward through two technical amendments. No doubt my noble friend has easy answers, but at this point I seek elucidation and information. I beg to move.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Peston, has explained that what he meant by the term "efficiency" was in fact "value added". I have to say that in this age of managerialism, the word "efficiency" is too frequently interpreted as cost effectiveness, so I was rather horrified by the use of the term. I entirely endorse his view that we should regard this as a matter of value added and I am only sorry that he did not propose the term in his amendment.
For rather the same reason, I wonder about his use of the word "management" as well as the word "leadership". I believe that one element that stands out
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in our education system is how important is the quality of leadership in a head teacher. To that end, the courses that have been introduced recently to train head teachers in leadership are important innovations. We have not done enough in this area so far.
I understand what the noble Lord means by his use of the words "management" and "leadership", but, as he knows full well, I believe that we may be in danger of introducing the concept of managerialism, of which we have far too much already in the education system.
It is very obvious that in the education system as a whole women are not properly represented in the higher ranks. However, this House demonstrates that women are the workers of the world.
9 p.m.
Baroness Blatch: We are not doing too badly this evening. I have done a head count around the Chamber. Not only are we holding our own in terms of numbers; we are holding our own as effective operators.
I support the introduction of the word "management", but probably for different reasons. This strikes me as an issue where you can have leadership. Leadership is about motivating people and getting the best out of them, but the management of an establishment is also important. If the Government are considering giving freedom to a school, they will expect it to be well run—that means well managed; they would also expect leadership.
I support the amendment in regard to adding the word "educational". "Performance" can mean many things to many people, but we are talking about education—the primary concern so far as concerns the Bill—and about giving schools their freedom to provide effective education, and there is a distinction to be made between good performance and good educational delivery. So we support the amendments which seek to add those two words to the clause.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: Again, another new idea has been introduced to the Committee. I, too, have carried out a head count of the women. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, that they are extremely effective. I shall of course pass on that view to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, who also fits into the category. This is a serious point. I am not quite sure how to respond to it in the context of the amendment, except to say that it is important that we ensure that able women can achieve in, and be at the top of, our education system.
As regards Amendment No. 27, in proposing performance criteria for earned autonomy we are absolutely clear that performance relates to "educational performance". We believe that the performance criteria, on which we propose to consult, involves looking at a school's performance within the relevant free school meal band for precisely this reason.
We want to ensure that schools facing a variety of circumstances are eligible for earned autonomy. Included in this is our intention that schools in the

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most challenging circumstances are able to qualify for, and obtain, earned autonomy. As the noble Lord has requested, and the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, has said, over time, as value-added measures are introduced, we are committed to considering how that data can be incorporated into the performance criteria.
Our proposals in this respect are set out in the earned autonomy policy document provided in another place and available from the House Library. However, I would draw the Committee's attention to point 8 of that guidance, where we describe how we would remove flexibilities and freedoms. We recognise that school performances can be variable and we would wish to see flexibilities removed only if performance fell significantly or over a protracted period of time and where the use by the school of the increased flexibilities might be a contributing factor. We have expressed this by saying that if a school's performance either falls significantly below the top 25 per cent mark in its free school meal band for three years running, or falls below the median performance level in that free school meal band in any one year, or is judged by Ofsted to fall below "excellent" or "very good" in two of the three aspects above. I hope that that is helpful.
As to Amendment No. 28, we intend that the school's management should be included in the criteria. It is an intention that we have already set out in the policy statement I referred to earlier. We intend that the detailed content of the criteria should be set in regulations rather than in primary legislation. That will allow us as the policy develops to develop the criteria, broadening the availability of earned autonomy to yet more well led, high-performing schools.
However, the noble Lord has made a point that we should consider further. We have distinguished elsewhere in the Bill—for example, in Schedule 16 which makes minor amendments to the School Inspections Act—between "leadership" and "management". It has always been our intention that the two areas of leadership and management should be used together in making judgments in this area, and my noble friend is right to point out that there is at least some doubt as to whether the primary legislation enables us to do so. I can reassure him that I shall consider the point further with a view to bringing forward an amendment at Report stage, if necessary, to ensure that judgment about management can be included in the criteria. With this assurance, I trust that my noble friend will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Peston: I thank my noble friend for her encouraging reply. Perhaps I may make one last point which I forgot to make earlier. I hope that we recognise that although we are talking about schools, a school is already a quite large body. In the days when I visited schools, one of the things that made me feel optimistic about the world was that, even in a bad school, teachers were performing miracles in adverse circumstances. I know my noble friend will agree that although we are trying to improve a school within a
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school, we must recognise always that there will be people there who are doing remarkable work. We must not undermine that remarkable work even though, overall, the school itself needs to improve. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 28 not moved.]
Baroness Sharp of Guildfordmoved Amendment No. 29:
Page 4, line 7, at end insert "and shall include criteria requiring the school to demonstrate how any exemption will be evaluated in terms of its impact on disabled pupils and pupils with special educational needs"
The noble Baroness said: In moving Amendment No 29, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 30 and 43. This group of amendments again concerns special educational needs. The arrangements in this chapter of the Bill are all about successful schools. It is the demonstrated success of a school that will qualify it for exemption from or modification of statutory powers.
The Special Education Consortium—I speak on its behalf—is very concerned that three key criteria should be met to ensure that the arrangements for earned autonomy take adequate account of the education of disabled children and children with special educational needs. Three particular aspects about which we are concerned are represented by the three amendments.
First, schools which are deemed to be successful should be able to demonstrate that they have been successful in promoting the education of disabled children and children with educational needs. Traditional measures of success depend heavily on test and examination performance. Such outcomes may not adequately reflect a school's work with disabled children and children with special educational needs. In fact, it is possible for a school to be performing well on test and examination outcomes but to be neglecting the progress of disabled children and children with SEN. By contrast, it is likely that a school which is promoting the achievement of disabled children and children with SEN is promoting also the achievement of all the other children in the school. So it is crucial for schools seeking earned autonomy to be able to demonstrate satisfactorily their ability to provide, and to provide well, for disabled children and children with special educational needs. That is why we are pressing Amendment No. 29.
We are concerned, secondly, that there should be a requirement to show how the impact of any exemption or any innovation will be evaluated from the point of view of its impact on disabled pupils and pupils with SEN. Again, it would be possible for the exemptions or modifications earned by a school further to disadvantage disabled children and children with SEN. There might, for example, be a narrowing of the curriculum or a reliance on classroom assistants to provide teaching for children with SEN, with teachers acting in a more consultative mode. Interaction with a teacher lies at the heart of the learning process, and other staff may not be adequately trained to spot the

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clues to a child's progress and to exploit them to the benefit of the child. That explains why we are putting forward the second amendment.
The third amendment, Amendment No. 43, is concerned with the ability of successful schools to demonstrate that they have significant support from parents and the community, and in particular from parents with disabled children and children with special educational needs.
There are provisions for the governing body to consult with parents before an application is submitted under this chapter of the Bill. It is important that consultation specifically seeks out the views of parents of disabled children and children with SEN. Any modification or exemption may affect such children disproportionately. The views of this group of parents should be made clear in the application. I look forward to the Minister's response to our reasons for putting forward the three amendments. I beg to move.
Baroness Blatch: The noble Baroness has spoken to Amendment No. 43. I believe that she misinterpreted it anyway, but she referred to it as one of three Liberal Democrat amendments. Amendment No. 43 stands in my name, so I am not sure whether she was referring to a different amendment.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I beg the noble Baroness's pardon. I see that our amendments are Amendments Nos. 29 and 30.
Baroness Blatch: All these amendments refer to the protection of children with special needs, but Amendment No. 43 in my name—and I shall speak also to Amendment No. 39—seeks to ensure that,
"No regulations … shall limit or reduce the provision of special educational needs in any qualifying school".
I return to the fact that there is universal concern about this issue. I was contacted only today by the NUT, which makes some interesting points on Amendment No. 39. In its briefing, it refers to the fact that the Bill contains no guarantee of the protection of such children. We have made that point ad nauseam during the course of the debate. The NUT goes on to say:
"The Government has stated its intention that 'every school must continue to teach the basics and offer a broad and balanced curriculum'".
There is a tension here. The Bill allows for an exemption from those requirements. So it would be helpful to know exactly what the Government will regard as a no-go area for the purposes of asking for exemptions. The NUT briefing continues:
"It is not clear what is meant by 'a broad and balanced curriculum'".
At some point in the debate we shall need a definition from the Government as to what they believe is a "broad and balanced curriculum".
The Green Paper and the White Paper emphasise the importance of sports, the arts, drama and music, but again there is little or no reference to history or
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geography. I know that outside this Chamber there is considerable concern, for example, that the term "humanities" will not necessarily include history and/or geography. In addition, the Green Paper and the White Paper imply that sports, the arts, drama and musical activities are increasingly seen as extracurricular; therefore, not all pupils will have the same opportunities for access.
I return to my earlier suggestion. It is becoming clearer and clearer to me that all the different amendments that we have tabled in order to provide protection for children with special educational needs may not be the best way to go about this. I implore the noble Baroness to give some consideration between now and the next stage of the Bill to a portmanteau statement at the outset of the Bill, in or before Clause 1, setting in statute protection for the interests and needs of such children if any SEN legislation being applied for in terms of exemption fell foul of that basic, fundamental protection. That provision could be included in a single amendment and would be hugely helpful.
For that reason, I shall not press my Amendments Nos. 39 and 43. There is still some debate to be had about the matter and there may be a meeting of minds on finding a better way of building in protection for children with special educational needs.
Lord Rix: I am inclined to agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, on her last statement. It would be splendid if there was a catch-all clause at the beginning of the Bill to encompass all people with special educational needs and disability. The references could then be few and far between in the rest of the Bill, because the issue would be covered in statute for all time.
Once more, I wish to play my one-string fiddle with regard to the amendments proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp of Guildford. When schools apply to become qualifying schools, it is important that they show better than average effective special educational needs practices rather than being allowed to exclude such children. I would welcome an assurance from the Minister that pupils with special educational needs and disabled children will not end up consigned to non-qualifying, less favoured schools. I therefore support the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp of Guildford, in her amendments and hope that the Minister will look on them favourably.
9.15 p.m.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I fully support the sentiments that lie behind the amendments—a wish to see the interests of disabled children or those with special educational needs at the heart of decisions relating to earned autonomy. However, it will not surprise noble Lords to hear that I do not believe that these amendments offer the best way to achieve that aim. I fear that Amendment No. 29 would add to the bureaucracy of the application process and discourage schools from coming forward with ideas that would benefit all children, including those it is intended to protect. For example, schools applying for earned

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autonomy would not know if they were eligible until after they had applied and it had been determined whether the evaluation plan was acceptable. Before a school embarks on a consultation programme on the flexibilities that it is seeking, it is not unreasonable for it to expect to know whether it would qualify.
We have made clear our intention to make as many flexibilities as possible automatic. This is based on a belief that we can and should trust our best schools to take decisions that are right for their pupils. That includes those with special educational needs. It is also based on an understanding that schools need to be allowed to get on with the job of educating our children without a continual need to justify and defend their decisions through reports and applications.
There are already safeguards to protect the interests of children with special educational needs, including the inspection regime. Our commitment to the publication of value-added measures will provide yet another means of holding schools accountable for the progress of all children. Furthermore, the policy statement on earned autonomy has made clear our intention to consult on the use of value-added data in determining eligibility for earned autonomy once sufficient information is available. While I would be happy to continue to explore other ways of meeting the concerns of the noble Baroness, I do not believe this is the right approach.
The same applies to Amendment No. 30. If there was a clear and unambiguous measure of attainment for these children that could be applied in appropriate cases, I would be happy to accept an amendment of this kind. Unfortunately, as noble Lords will be only too well aware, this is not the case. It is notoriously difficult to develop a simple measure of attainment for children whose educational needs are so varied and where there are huge differences from school to school in the nature of their special needs and their special needs provision.
The amendment would require us to specify such a measure in regulations. There is a real danger that that measure would turn out to be unfair, denying schools earned autonomy because of a measure that was inappropriate to the nature of the special needs that they catered for.
The amendment would also deny earned autonomy to any school without pupils with disabilities—although I am sure that that is not intentional. It is impossible to demonstrate high standards of achievement of children with disabilities if there are none at the school in question.
While I am more than willing to continue to explore with noble Lords other ways of meeting their concerns, I return to the general proposition of earned autonomy, which is about trusting our best schools and our best head teachers to take decisions that are in the best interests of their children, including those children with disabilities or with special educational needs.
In relation to Amendments Nos. 39 and 43, I remind the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, that Clause 7 makes it clear that the governing body must consult the
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parents of pupils at the school where that governing body is applying for earned autonomy in respect of any curriculum provision. Parents can voice their views and concerns through parent representatives on the governing body and through the explicit requirements of Clause 7. Where parents of pupils with special educational needs are opposed to the change being proposed, they will make their views known, The governing body will consider those views, and I do not believe that the governing body of a successful school would disregard them.
We have also made it clear that the accountability framework will remain. Performance tables will remain in place and Ofsted will continue to inspect schools and will continue to be concerned with the education that the school provides for all its children, including those with special needs.
Finally, I stress that earned autonomy cannot change the duties of the local education authority or the governing body to secure that appropriate special educational provision for pupils with special educational needs is made. Therefore, qualifying schools will have to take that into account during their consultations and subsequently when making an application to the Secretary of State or the National Assembly.
As I have said, I would welcome discussions with noble Lords. I am very interested in the possible way forward described by the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch. I should like to consider that and other issues before the next stage of the Bill. I would genuinely welcome discussions on how to take the issue forward. It is quite difficult, but there is no lack of will from the Government. With those reassurances, I hope that the noble Baroness will withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I thank the Minister for that reply. I also apologise to the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch. I was looking at my briefing on Amendment No. 46, which comes later and also deals with page 5 of the Bill. I therefore jumped to the conclusion that one of her amendments must be mine.
We recognise that, as the Minister said, it is inevitably difficult to find the right phrasing in these matters. What is most encouraging is the notion that we might be able to establish a type of portmanteau coverage to address special educational needs issues. Those issues arise throughout the Bill, and we shall be moving a series of amendments to address them. Nevertheless, it would be very satisfactory to cover the issues at the beginning of the Bill. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 30 not moved.]
Lord Davies of Oldhammoved Amendment No. 31:
Page 4, line 10, at end insert—
"(2A) For the purposes of this Chapter a school teacher is "employed" at a school if he works at the school under a contract falling within paragraphs (b), (c) and (d) of section 118(3)."

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The noble Lord said: In moving Amendment No. 31, I shall speak to Amendments Nos. 154, 158 and 368. These are technical amendments providing for internal consistency within the Bill.
Amendment No. 31, which amends Clause 5, adds a definition that ensures the provisions allowing certain schools to apply for exemption from parts of the pay and conditions document apply to exactly the same group of people as the document. The other three amendments remove a list of related definitions from Chapter 1 of Part 3 of the Bill. The definitions were imported from the School Standards and Framework Act 1998 and are not needed for this chapter as the meaning of the terms is clear where used. Amendment No. 368 takes the definition of a contract of employment which was located in this chapter and places it in Clause 205 in order to refer to the whole Bill.
These are technical improvements to the Bill's drafting which will ensure consistency in the interpretation of the Bill as a whole. I beg to move.
Lord Lucas: I should be grateful for a little help from the Minister. It is not clear that the definitions in Clause 118(3)(b) and Clause 129(1) would apply to a head teacher or member of senior management who was not actually teaching. I am also not clear whether the ambit of the definitions is intended to cover supply teachers, who do not seem to be covered by Clause 118(3)(c). I hope that he can enlighten me on the point.
Lord Davies of Oldham: These are technical amendments which improve the Bill's internal consistency. The noble Lord is asking me about their extent and range. I cannot deal with the precise points now, but I shall write to him on them. We shall also have an opportunity to return to these technical provisions and improve them if necessary.
Baroness Blatch: I am sorry to be pernickety on the point, but I have been in the position that the Minister now finds himself in: one moves a string of technical amendments, bites one's lip, and just hopes that everyone says okay and does not ask a question. However, it is especially important that questions on technical amendments be answered. Although I am not accusing the Minister of this, Ministers sometimes use the ploy of avoiding noble Lords' questions and worries by referring to the technical nature of amendments. My noble friend Lord Lucas has asked a question and I think it deserves an answer. The Minister is asking the Committee to approve the amendments. However, as it will not delay our consideration of the Bill, I think that we should leave the amendments to Report stage, after the question has been answered.
Lord Davies of Oldham: I am grateful to the noble Baroness for eating up those two crucial minutes so that help could arrive, and getting me round that rather sticky corner. I am grateful for her approach, and she is absolutely right—technical amendments
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always do raise real issues. As she will recognise, however, we are simply seeking to make the Bill as clear and consistent as possible. Moreover, as she so rightly said, it is often difficult to answer questions on technical amendments.
The points that the noble Lord made do not affect the amendments. The amendments ensure that certain definitions here are consistent with those in Clause 118. I believe that the noble Lord will conclude that we have produced clearer definitions. That is why these amendments were tabled.
Lord Lucas: I entirely agree that the wording and the construction are more elegant. However, my understanding of the amendments that the noble Lord introduces is that in this section of the Bill the parts which are to apply to teachers employed at a school enabling the pay and conditions regulations to be relaxed in relation to those teachers will not now apply to head teachers and members of the senior management who do not teach. I should be grateful for confirmation that that is what is intended as that is certainly the effect of the amendments as I read them. It is also the effect of the amendments as I read them that they would not apply to supply teachers. I suspect that that may be right, but I should again be grateful for confirmation that that is what is intended.
Lord Davies of Oldham: I confirm that that is what is intended. The crucial clause is Clause 118 which concerns the power to prescribe pay and conditions. As the noble Lord rightly indicated, supply teachers are under specific contracts. Therefore, the amendment does not apply to supply teachers. The measure applies to non-teaching heads. Subsection (4) of Clause 118 states:
"A person is also a school teacher for the purposes of this section if he serves as the head teacher of a school maintained by a local education authority".
Lord Lucas: The amendment that we are looking at does not refer to subsection (4) of Clause 118; it refers only to paragraphs (b), (c) and (d) of Clause 118(3), which do not include a head teacher who is not a teacher.
Lord Davies of Oldham: The noble Lord will recognise that what we are trying to achieve throughout the Bill is consistency of definitions. We recognise the distinction with regard to supply teachers. I believe that he will accept that the amendment adds to the clarity of the Bill as a whole. If there are outstanding difficulties, I undertake to return to them on Report. However, at this point I cannot see that there is any difficulty in accepting Amendment No. 31.
Lord Lucas: In part I have been motivated in all this by the torrid times given to me by the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, over many years on similar groups of amendments when I was a junior Whip on the Front Bench. However, I believe that we have an unresolved point here. I should be grateful for a letter before Report in time to table amendments if that is required.
Lord Davies of Oldham: I give that assurance.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendment No. 32 not moved.]
Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 6 [Exemptions available to qualifying schools]:
Baroness Sharp of Guildfordmoved Amendment No. 33:
Page 4, line 25, leave out "may" and insert "shall"
The noble Baroness said: In moving Amendment No. 33, I wish also to speak to the Question that Clause 6 stand part of the Bill. These two issues are related. Clause 6(1) states:
"Regulations may for the purposes of this section—".
It then sets out some detailed provisions.
The amendment was suggested by the National Association of Head Teachers. Its view is that it has got to have regulations in order to make any applications under the earned autonomy provision. It is impossible for it not to have details of what is needed. What is a successful school, and why cannot schools other than those with a serious weakness be allowed to practise self-management?
The detail of the provisions brings me to the clause stand part debate. I made it clear in my initial remarks on earned autonomy that I am less than convinced that that is a good idea. Many issues arise in that regard. Why should schools have to apply to the Secretary of State for permission to exercise earned autonomy? The Minister said that, given the criteria, schools will not know when they apply whether they will be eligible for earned autonomy and that the whole issue will have to be evaluated by the Department for Education and Skills.
We return to the debate that we had at the start of our proceedings on the centralisation of these issues, the degree to which the arrangement is concentrated on the ministry and the degree of micro-management that is entailed. The process seems incredibly bureaucratic and over-prescriptive and it will place a great deal of power in the hands of the Secretary of State.
When we debated Amendment No. 15, I suggested that the one area in which schools wanted a hit of flexibility was in relation to the curriculum, but the Minister replied, "They do not need that because they already have plenty of flexibility in relation to the curriculum". Why are we now proposing that, with regard to earned autonomy, we should give them flexibility in relation to the curriculum? That is a nonsense. I therefore question whether the clause should stand part of the Bill. I beg to move.
9.30 p.m
Lord Peston: I have a question about our procedure. We will come to subsequent amendments that relate to Clause 6. How can we possibly be debating clause stand part before our consideration of those amendments? Surely, someone or other—I hate to look at the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp—must be out
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of order. We cannot possibly debate clause stand part before considering amendments that require the clause to still be in the Bill when we debate them.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: The answer is that we can debate clause stand part but that we cannot resolve it until all of the amendments to the clause have been debated. It is perfectly proper to debate clause stand part if the proposer of the earlier amendment wishes to do so.
Lord Peston: I entirely take my noble friend's point, but it seems to be slightly illogical to be debating something without an ability to resolve it. It makes much more logical sense to debate the amendments and then to have the clause stand part debate. But at this time of night it is obviously all getting a bit beyond me.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: The reason why I discussed whether the clause stand part was because it is grouped with the amendment on the groupings list. I did a certain amount of regrouping yesterday but, unlike the noble Lord, I did not regroup my amendments to the extent that every one of them would be debated separately.
Lord Roberts of Conwy: I have much sympathy with Amendment No. 33, which involves the rest of the clause. However, it is very strange that regulations "may" provide—
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Skelmersdale): I regret that we have got somewhat out of order, notwithstanding the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Peston. We should return to the amendment.
Lord Roberts of Conwy: The noble Baroness has spoken to the amendment, as has the noble Lord, Lord Peston; I am simply continuing our debate on it. However, what I wish to say involves the clause stand part debate, which is grouped with the amendment.
It is very strange that Clause 6(1) states that:
"Regulations may for the purposes of this section",
designate various provisions, which are listed in paragraphs (a) to (d). They are substantial paragraphs. Paragraphs (a) and (b) speak of designating "any curriculum provision", and paragraphs (c) and (d) refer to modifications of "any curriculum provision".
What is meant by those designations? In practical terms, how far will the regulations go in designating parts of the curriculum from which schools may be exempt? Are the core national curriculum and its subjects sacrosanct, or could they come under any of these regulations as providing exemption? This point was raised earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, and by my noble friend Lady Blatch. It is time that we had some clarification of precisely what is meant by "any curriculum provision" and the exemption that may be provided through regulation on that account.
Lord Lucas: My interest in opposing the Question that Clause 6 stand part is based merely on wishing to find out what Clause 6 is intended to do.
Baroness Blatch: I am sympathetic to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Peston. It does seem bizarre to discuss whether the clause shall stand part when there are two pages of amendments yet to come in relation to the clause. I believe that that is probably a fault of the groupings. It is always possible, although highly unlikely, that the Minister will accept all the amendments between now and Amendment No. 43, although I believe that she has already indicated that Amendment No. 43 is not acceptable. We may have a very different Clause 6 in the Bill when we come to agreeing whether it will stand part; or we may know far more about it by the time we reach that point. Therefore, I believe that the amendments are important in finding out what the clause is about and having that on the record. We can then debate whether or not we believe that it should stand part of the Bill. With that, I agree.
However, there is a supreme irony here. In speeches over recent days we have heard Ministers use the language of devolution. That is particularly the case in the health service but less so in the education service, although I have heard it from the Secretary of State for Education. They have spoken of passing more control for public services to local level, with more devolution of management and more ownership at local level. They have spoken of letting go of the reins and of Whitehall agreeing to relinquish its central control.
But this Bill is very centralist. Now, almost everything that happens and almost everything that moves in schools must be approved by the Secretary of State. I believe that that flies in the face of, and is very inconsistent with, much of what is being said. I hope that the noble Baroness will be able to persuade her colleagues to say that schools can be trusted. As I said during debate on earlier amendments, schools are highly accountable. They operate in a goldfish bowl; they cannot get away with delivering a poor service without it being noticed and without it being dealt with by some part of legislation.
Therefore, the situation is the reverse of what Ministers are saying. The reality is that the central control is tightening all the time. I hope that we in this House can do something about loosening that control before the Bill goes back to another place.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: On my first day of my first Committee stage, I confess to being slightly lost so far as concerns the procedure. I do not know whether I should talk about clause stand part now or later. I shall do my best to respond in various ways to the relevant issues that have been raised, and I hope that I shall have addressed them all by the time we reach the end of our discussions on these amendments.
As I said, earned autonomy is about trusting schools to exercise additional freedoms and flexibilities in the interests of the schools. We want the process to be as simple and un-bureaucatic as possible, with—I say this to the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch—minimal
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involvement from the Secretary of State. However, while we wish as many flexibilities as possible to be made available as of right, we believe that we need to retain the ability to decide whether or not it will be appropriate for regulations to include both automatic and discretionary areas of exemption.
Such decisions will be subject to full consultation. Until we are clear, following consultation, what areas will be covered by regulation, it is important that we retain flexibility. That is precisely why it is appropriate to leave the word "may" in the first line of Clause 6 rather than to replace it by "shall". If the word "shall" were included we would be required to make available some automatic exemptions and some discretionary ones, in both teachers' pay and conditions and in the national curriculum. The word "may" would enable us to make exemptions automatic as far as possible, with no discretionary element.
We have set out in detail our proposals for doing this in a policy statement sent to the committee in another place and that is available in the Library of the House. Therefore, I hope that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Before I move on I would like to refer to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, which is subjects. I am very pleased that he raised it because, as Members of the Committee will be aware, we have been doing a great deal of work on the Green Paper on the education of 14 to 19-year olds and the flexibility that we are very keen to see in Key Stage 4 of the national curriculum. We have had a chance to reflect on the stance of earned autonomy that we outlined in another place.
It is our view that non-core foundation subjects need to be protected under earned autonomy. That means that no school will be able to suspend any subject, but will be given flexibility in relation to the programmes of study for non-core subjects, allowing far more freedom in teaching and greater scope in curriculum planning. I hope that that is helpful to the noble Lord.
Lord Roberts of Conwy: Does what the Minister has just said in relation to the foundation subjects, or the non-core subjects to which the noble Baroness referred, mean that the core subjects are sacrosanct?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: It does.
Baroness Blatch: I wish to press the noble Baroness on that point. In a Written Answer to me the word "general" is used. It states that in specific cases where the matter could qualify for autonomy, both under innovation and earned autonomy, it was possible for an application to be approved.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: As I have tried to indicate, we have been looking at what is the best and most appropriate way of taking forward earned autonomy within our school system. It is our view that because we have been looking at the strategy for 14 to 19 year-olds that we are very keen to ensure that the flexibility around that group is at the heart of what we

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are trying to do with flexibility. Then we shall look back at the implications involved in terms of Key Stages 1 and 3.
We are aiming to make sure that within our school system a child moving from one school to another or entering the system is aware of the subjects in which it is entitled to be taught and which are available. Beyond that we want to ensure that schools have freedom to be able to explore different and innovative ways, through earned autonomy, of being able to teach those subjects. That is what we are seeking to do within that framework. I hope that clarifies the point for the noble Baroness. If it does not, I shall either write to her or state the issue in a different way.
Baroness Blatch: I have now found the reply, which is to a Written Question (HL 3784). It states,
"The Government have made clear their view that they would not in general regard a proposal to suspend the requirement to teach a compulsory subject as standard-raising unless"-
in other words, there is a caveat—
"appropriate arrangements are in place to secure high standards in the basics and a broad and balanced curriculum. It follows that only in such circumstances would my right honourable friend the Secretary of State have the power to grant the order". [Official Report, 30/04/02; col. WA93.]
That is, grant the order to exempt a compulsory subject from being taught. Therefore, the status of the compulsory subject is affected by both Clause 2 and Clause 5.
9.45 p.m.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I, too, have a copy of the letter that I wrote to the noble Baroness in front of me. It refers to Clause 1, which deals with the power to innovate. I am sorry, but the letter begins by saying:
"Clause 1 means that the Secretary of State would only be permitted to approve proposals if she considers that they would contribute to the raising of standards".
It refers specifically to the powers to innovate.
Baroness Blatch: It is true that the letter was written in relation to "innovate". However, all I am saying is that the compulsory nature of the subject is already distorted in this Bill. In fact, the reply to the Written Question from which I quoted a short time ago refers to Clause 2. The actual question put to the Minister was whether this would be possible under proposals set out in Clause 2, and I have already repeated the reply. The compulsory nature of the subject is already compromised by Clause 2, and, I believe, by Clause 5.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: Clause 2 relates to the power to innovate. The reply given to the noble Baroness referred to the power to innovate. I am sorry if the noble Baroness finds that confusing. However, both Clause 1 and Clause 2 refer to the power to innovate. That is the issue to which I was replying.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: Perhaps I may return to Amendment No. 33. I thank the Minister for her reply. I have a copy of the policy statement, which the noble Baroness was kind enough to send to us. Can she
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tell me what the difference is between a policy statement and a regulation? Quite clearly, those who are trying to run schools do need governance as to whether or not they should apply. I recognise that they cannot do so unless they have some kind of guidance. Surely it would be sensible to cover this by way of guidance, or through regulations. I have a slight preference for guidance because I believe it to be slightly less centralising.
It would be sensible for me to withdraw my amendment. Perhaps the Minister could write to me with the answer to my question.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I am in a position to give the noble Baroness the answer. A policy statement is put before Parliament, whereas regulations are the vehicle by which it is implemented. However, the two should reflect each other.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: Am I right in thinking that the policy statement issued now will lead to regulations at a later date?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: Yes,
Baroness Blatch: I am sorry to be pernickety again, but did the Minister say that the policy statement is a document that is put before Parliament? I have a copy of the statement, but I have never seen any mention on an Order Paper of it being put before Parliament. If the document is placed in the Library of the House, that is very different. The placing of a document before Parliament is a very formal process. It is important to know whether it is put before Parliament, or whether it is simply a document for information in order to clarify the Government's thinking underlying the policy.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: The noble Baroness is absolutely correct: I was misled—
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: By me!
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I was not going to name him, but I was misled by my noble friend Lord McIntosh. As I said, the noble Baroness is absolutely correct: the document is put in the Library, and not laid before Parliament. I apologise. I shall get better at this in time.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Walmsleymoved Amendment No. 34:
Page 4, line 33, at end insert—
"( ) In so far as regulations made under this section relate to a pay or conditions provision they shall in addition to providing for an exemption or modification make provision also for the determination of the relevant pay or conditions by means of negotiation between relevant bodies and representatives of those to whom different pay and conditions are to be applied."

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The noble Baroness said: In moving this amendment, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 38, 48 and 49. The purpose of this group of amendments is to probe the Government's intentions in relation to qualifying schools exempt from legislation relating to teachers' pay and conditions.
The amendments seek to ensure negotiating rights for staff and their representatives in schools with earned autonomy. There has been a long argument about whether the existing statutory procedure for the determination of teachers' pay and conditions conforms to international conventions. Without the provisions sought by these amendments the Government could place themselves further outside their international obligations.
Clause 9(1), as it stands, clearly assumes that pay and other conditions of school staff exempted from statutory arrangements will be determined unilaterally by the governing body, even though the governing body will not be the employer of staff in community and voluntary controlled schools. Clearly that is nonsense.
Given recent difficulties in recruiting teachers, it is unlikely that schools will want to move away from the school teachers' pay and conditions document in order to worsen teachers' conditions. However, it is easy to see how some schools may be tempted to move away from it in order to recruit staff, without adequate consideration of the impact on retention of other staff. That could exacerbate the current staffing problems, the extent of which the Government will not know until they have conducted the long-awaited staffing and curriculum survey, on which the Minister recently told the House in an Answer to a Starred Question from myself that we shall have to wait another year.
However, there is nothing to prevent teachers in any school negotiating the non-statutory aspects of pay and conditions. By involving the teachers' unions, the amendment would ensure that such negotiations were placed on a whole-school basis. It would therefore protect schools from inadvertently straying into starting internecine wars in staff rooms, supposedly havens of peace and refuges from the stresses and strains of the classroom. I beg to move.
Lord Peston: Amendment No. 37 is in my name and that of my noble friend Lady David. Broadly it is in line with what the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, has said. What is the point of the clause on pay? The Minister will remember that this kind of opt-out from statutory pay and conditions was a characteristic of the GM schools regime. It is interesting that of the GM schools—they numbered only about 1,000—only three opted out. One wonders why the Government have decided that they should return to the theme. What is the point?
The positive side of offering more, which is what the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, spoke of, must have an effect if they are able to do this. If they are not able to offer more I cannot see why they have been given the
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power. It must have an effect on recruitment, which will have adverse effects on neighbouring schools that do not have the same power.
I do not want to make a Treasury point, but I am amazed that the Treasury would want to give any schools the power to start spending excess sums of money that the Treasury cannot control. I should have thought that the Treasury would be keen to retain the nationally agreed scales. Maybe the Treasury, for once, has not noticed this Bill going through Parliament.
My honourable friend the Minister with responsibility for schools said in the other place that he was aware of this point. He also appeared to say that he did not believe that anyone would make much use of it. He did not accept that there would be much possible effect on neighbouring schools. However, he must then find himself with a logical difficulty. If schools do not make use of the power, why are we giving it to them? And if they do make use of it, there is no way of getting round the fact that it will have an effect on other schools.
Mostly we concentrate on poaching by means of excess pay, but I am not convinced by the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley. She believes that there will be no attempt to cut pay. Anyone who knows anything about the way that organisations work knows that if they run into financial difficulties, they may well ask members of staff whether they still want their jobs. Members of staff who are not highly mobile may then be told that they had better accept a worsening of pay or work more hours.
I do not regard as trivial the part of my amendment that talks about poorer pay and conditions. But my main point is that I regard most of this as hypothetical and overwhelmingly I can see no case for any of the pay and conditions provisions being included in the Bill. Therefore I ask my noble friend to think again about this. It is something that a sensible government would not introduce into the education system. It is asking for trouble. It will be no discredit for the Government to say, "This is a silly thing. We were taken with it in a fit of madness and the time has come to return to sanity".
Lord Lucas: Over the years it seems to me that the national pay scales for teachers and nurses have served to make them among the most poorly and underpaid professions in this country. If one surrenders one's bargaining power and deals not with local people who understand one's specific qualities, but subjects oneself to a national system, there is little else that could happen over the long-term other than pay going down. One need only look at the train drivers to see what happens when that position is reversed. They negotiate with people rather more local to their place of employment and their salaries go up at a great rate.
I should like to see teachers' salaries rising at a considerable rate. It is a good idea to have mechanisms in place which encourage schools to pay good teachers money over and above what they are worth. It encourages them to use teachers more innovatively

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and more efficiently, beyond anything else. Being stuck in the current stultifying system is one of the great drawbacks of the present school system.
The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, raises the prospect of it being even worse. Thank goodness we will never see a Liberal government.
Lord Peston: I am not sure whether it is allowed in the rules, but perhaps I can offer the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, a bet. He is younger than me so he may live to see this happen. Is he really saying that if we went along these lines, teachers overall will be better off? Wearing my economics hat, I bet him that the best they can hope for is as good and the more likely outcome is worse. If there were ever a case of let us wait and live to see the day, this is a very good example of possible predictions.
Lord Lucas: There are only a few examples available at the moment. But can the noble Lord say whether teachers at the Thomas Telford School are paid better or worse than average?
Lord Peston: That is an easy question for me. I do not know.
Lord Dearing: Perhaps I could add a word of caution on schools being involved in local pay negotiations. I know no more expensive hobby for an amateur than to engage in pay negotiations with professionals. I have tried!
I know the Local Government Association is concerned about this aspect. Local initiatives by one school will inevitably impact across the system. If this is to go forward, it may be advisable for the schools to consult their LEA before committing themselves.
Baroness Blatch: Perhaps I may ask the noble Lord, Lord Peston, a question through the Minister, unconnected with whether or not people receive poorer pay. I believe that the impetus would be for greater pay rather than for poorer pay. Certainly that is the case where it has been exercised, as my noble friend said. And I can answer the question in relation to the Thomas Telford School; the teachers are paid infinitely more than the normal national pay and conditions stipulate.
In relation to paragraph (b) in Amendment No. 37, staff are moving from school to school all the time. They move in and out of the faith and independent sectors; they move across the maintained sectors; they move from primary to secondary and the other way round. It is difficult to know therefore what is and what is not poaching. Some schools certainly give a nod and a wink about a forthcoming vacancy and invite people to think about it. That is the normal sort of head-hunting that takes place. It would be nearly impossible to prove a case of poaching of teachers.
My other point is more philosophical. Teachers should be free to go where they want. No teacher moves by compulsion. If a teacher wishes to move from one school to another, it may not be the pay that
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is the attraction; it may be the philosophy or the ethos of the school; it may be that somebody wants to move into or out of a faith school. So paragraph (b) is questionable. I have no comment to make on paragraph (a).
10 p.m.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I raise the example of further education colleges, which when they became bodies corporate were able to move over to locally negotiated pay and where, on the whole, pay has not been raised. Many staff were then made selfemployed—effectively they became contract staff to the further education colleges. One complaint that we heard last week at a lobby concerned the low rates of pay and the lack of pay increases for years.
Lord Peston: As I was asked a question that I do not take to be rhetorical, we ought to remember what we are discussing. We are discussing the creation of a special class of schools within the whole class of schools with additional powers. We are not discussing all schools competing equally against each other, which might lead to a proper outcome. A special group will be allowed to do things that other schools cannot.
I am asking my noble friend: what is it about those schools that we should give them those powers? What would they gain—what would be gained—from that? Will the Government reassure us that that will not be to the detriment of schools that do not have those powers? I am about to use a cliché that I took a lifetime oath never to use, but I shall use it because I am getting tired. We are discussing our standard level playing field question.
The Earl of Listowel: I apologise for not being present when the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, moved the amendment. I was not as alert as I should have been. I have heard teachers in Southwark, Haringey and elsewhere express concern that some schools have the most difficult pupils. They struggle and everything seems to work against them. I am worried that the introduction of special payments to certain schools may add to that negative spiral, by which the most successful schools can hire the best teachers and they are drained away from the least successful schools. I should like reassurance that that will not happen—that sink schools will not be created by the measure.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I shall start by addressing Amendments Nos. 34 and 38. I should stress that we intend to make the application procedure for schools contemplating making changes to pay and conditions provisions as simple and straightforward as possible. That is why we intend that qualifying schools that apply for exemption from or modification to designated pay and conditions provisions will be entitled to have their applications approved by the Secretary of State as of right. In general, the Secretary of State should approve proposals under the innovation clauses. Earned autonomy should mean just that.

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With reference to the point raised by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, we have agreed closely to reconsider the criteria. We want to bring in our good schools with good leadership and management, recognising the circumstances in which they operate, so that we have a breadth and allow those schools to develop under earned autonomy. So it will not just be for one group of schools. It is based on good quality leadership and good standards. As I said, I shall return to discuss the criteria.
We fully recognise and accept the right of teachers at any school where such proposals are made to be consulted. After the governing body has made proposals—teachers are of course represented on and fully involved in the governing body—consultation will be a legal requirement. That is written into the Bill in Clause 7.
In answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, when the governing body makes its determinations, it must have regard to general employment law. It will be changing people's contracts of employment; it cannot do that unilaterally. It will be able to take advice from the local education authority or other personnel services providers about how lawfully to give effect to its exemptions or modifications.
It is not clear that negotiating machinery would be needed in every case. Of course, if a school secured extensive exemptions, some local pay determination machinery would be needed to replace the national machinery, but the earned autonomy provisions allow for the possibility of minor modifications and exemptions to suit local circumstances.
The amendment would require negotiation and agreement with the relevant teacher unions at an inappropriate stage in the procedure. Not only would that slow the process; it would make it far more burdensome for the schools. It would mean that an application for any change, however small, would be subject to that requirement.
No sensible governing body will propose changes that will be detrimental to teachers. All governing bodies will keep a close eye on any potential effect on recruitment and retention. The consultation stage of the process gives teachers full opportunity to put their views. No governing body would push through unpopular proposals with no support from the head teacher and staff in the school. The last thing that they want is that teachers—their most valuable asset—should vote with their feet.
I welcome the discussion on the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Peston. I am sure that my noble friend will not be surprised to hear that I cannot support the amendment in practice. However, I hope to offer some reassurance that will satisfy him. I shall explain why the wording of the amendment leaves us in some difficulty. I understand the sentiment behind the use of the word "poorer" in the first part of the amendment and appreciate it at a basic level. However, it would be difficult to define in practice because of its subjective nature and the complexity of the arrangements that could be put in place by a school
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subject to earned autonomy and the difficulty of comparing them with what can also be viewed as complex arrangements relating to pay and conditions at a national level.
With a potentially wide range of spine points, allowances and bonuses, to say nothing of potential variations in working time, it could be less straightforward than it might at first appear to compare arrangements between schools. I stress once more that no sensible governing body will offer its teachers pay and conditions that are, overall, inferior to those that might be obtained in a school not subject to earned autonomy. On the contrary, they will not pursue the autonomy route unless it offers benefits for their staff, better working arrangements and long-term advantages for the school and its pupils.
That leads me on to consideration of the second part of Amendment No. 37 about the poaching of teachers. As the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, explained, the proposed change would go far beyond what was workable in practice. It would prevent—or at least restrict—the movement of any staff into schools subject to earned autonomy but not out of them. That restriction would also cover staff who are not in any way subject to the earned autonomy arrangements—for example, non-teaching staff and classroom assistants—through the blanket use of the term "other staff".
I would expect that, if anything, teachers in schools subject to earned autonomy are unlikely to be offered inferior terms and conditions, for the reasons that I have outlined. There could be, for example, a bonus for long service, an allowance for running an out-of school club or a revised pay scale in return for more flexible working arrangements. We must remember that schools subject to earned autonomy will have no more money than other schools to pay their staff.
It is possible that such earned autonomy schools will be attractive to teachers in other schools if the particular arrangements appeal to them. However, all schools already have the flexibility to offer additional allowances—in particular, recruitment and retention allowances—that can be paid to any classroom teacher, subject to set maxima. The latest changes set out by the STRB and agreed by the Government also offer increased flexibility on head teachers' pay that many schools will welcome. Schools also have the freedom to offer discretionary experience points to classroom teachers. The national pay and conditions arrangements are far from rigid.
Amendment No. 48 would cause us problems. I have already said that we believe strongly that the arrangements set out in the Bill for the practical application and implementation of changes to teachers' pay and conditions arrangements that may follow from the earned autonomy provisions are the right ones. The process that we are putting forward is fair for all concerned, not least teachers, and enables the process to be carried forward with as little bureaucracy as possible on the part of governors and schools.

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The amendment would remove from the governing body the explicit authority and duty to make a determination regarding teachers' pay and conditions, to the extent that national conditions do not apply. It is important to be clear about where that duty lies, and it is consistent with the purpose of earned autonomy to extend governors' powers. In most schools, governors are the "relevant body" for the purpose of making pay decisions under the terms of the statutory school teachers' pay and conditions document. In an earned autonomy school, they would continue to make pay decisions; for example, in the case of performance pay. But to remove from governors the ultimate power to make decisions on pay under earned autonomy arrangements, leaving it as a matter for negotiation, cuts right across these statutory arrangements in a way which would only bring confusion and inconsistency.
The amendment would also remove from the LEA the duty to support the governors in giving effect to governors' decisions on matters relating to pay and conditions. For example, the LEA holds the contracts of employment of teachers at community and voluntary controlled schools. If a teacher's contract of employment needs to be changed as a consequence of earned autonomy, the LEA must be required to make the necessary changes. We believe that paragraph (b) is a helpful clarification.
Finally, the amendment would take away the clarification which is necessary for practical reasons about the position of a teacher in respect of pay and conditions from the time the order enabling changes to take place is made and its actual implementation.
Although I understand the reason for Amendment No. 49, I am afraid that I cannot agree that it is appropriate. First, its effect is too wide. The governing body would need to negotiate in some way with any body which represents teachers, whether or not it even has any members at the school. For a governing body to have to do this in respect of every change, small or large, which might affect pay and conditions—even if every teacher at the school had already expressed full support for it during the consultation process—would be quite unnecessary.
It is unnecessary because, although the Bill gives governing bodies the right to determine pay and conditions of teachers in circumstances where an order gives them the right to do so, general employment law means that the governing body cannot make unilateral decisions and they will need to negotiate with the teachers concerned in a manner appropriate to the modification which is being made.
I should point out that the point will not have been reached at a school without the general support of teachers at the school, so the governing body would be proceeding within a constructive climate. What we do not intend is for a form of local negotiating machinery to be imposed, which we believe Amendment No. 40 would do in a heavy-handed way. It will be down to the governing body to carry this forward in a way appropriate to modification or modifications being made.
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None the less, I can give clear assurances to Members of the Committee that there will need to be proper consultation with all teachers affected. I hope that that will reassure the noble Baroness.
Baroness Walmsley: I thank the Minister for her reply. In laying out the flexibilities which schools already have in terms of pay and conditions, she explained better than I why we do not need the provisions about pay and conditions in Clause 6. She has great confidence in the ability of governing bodies to do the right thing in this respect. Of course, governing bodies are loyal to their particular schools, but they have no responsibility for all the schools around them. By including the appropriate teaching unions and the local authorities in the negotiations we could avoid the situation in which there was a negative impact on other schools surrounding the few which would attract the additional powers when they have earned autonomy. Perhaps we can return to that matter at Report stage. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Pestonmoved Amendment No. 35:
Page 4, line 33, at end insert—
"( ) No regulations with regard to exemption from any curriculum provision should enable material to be introduced which is extraneous to any subject, as normally understood."
The noble Lord said: In speaking to Amendments Nos. 35 and 36, I feel obliged to apologise to the Committee. I regard the two amendments as absolutely fundamental to the Bill and to our system of education. I regard it as absolutely absurd that we are debating such amendments at 10.15 p.m. The sooner we abandon the arcane procedures of your Lordships' House and adopt the suggestions which my noble and learned friend the Leader of the House will put forward to us soon, so that on a Thursday we will stop at seven o'clock and on any other day we will stop at ten o'clock, the better. This House will become more efficient and will be able to deal with matters of this kind in a much more appropriate way.
Back-Benchers on this side of the House have no power in that regard. We must debate amendments when they arise and therefore I see no way in which I can avoid raising such matters. Furthermore, I regret to say that I can see no way of doing it briefly. So unless my noble friend who is the Whip on the Front Bench would care to move that we adjourn, I shall now proceed. I do not believe that he is going to adjourn the Committee.
Both of the amendments take us into the area of religious schools. They also take us into the area of the curriculum and they take us to fundamental questions which need answers. I have not yet heard those answers. What is the precise contribution that religious schools make to education—I shall concentrate on education rather than religion—that causes us to have them at all, to wish to expand their number and, if I may put it this way, to wish to extend them to additional religions? That is one question.

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The second question, which is not unrelated to the first, is: what is the connection between what I would call the religious ethos of a school and the national curriculum? I assume we would agree that, in some cases, there is no connection. Young people are taught that the square root of two is an irrational number and I cannot see how postulating one or other religion or deity could throw any light on that question. Thus if we are discussing the serious mathematics being taught in school, then the problem does not arise. I assume that it would also not arise in theoretical physics and, in so far as my own subject is taught in schools, that it could not possibly arise in the teaching of economics.
However, the question is: where can it arise? At this point I would add: if it cannot arise anywhere, why do religious schools exist anyway? Those are the kinds of questions that are before us and on which we must reflect.
I turn now to the question of where religious ethos might arise. The obvious subject to start with is history. Before I move on to religion, I shall cite another example. Any noble Lord who has seen an American school history textbook will know that the account of the American Revolution or the War of Independence in that textbook will bear no resemblance to what I was taught at school. Anyone reading such a book would wonder at what an extraordinarily biased view of history the Americans are being taught. A fortiori, if one reads the chapter on the battle of Waterloo in a French history textbook, you have to be incredibly clever to discover that they lost and we won. Indeed, if you miss the last sentence, then you will not discover it at all.
I am perfectly well aware that in the subject of history then—what is the right word?—bias or point or view will have an impact. We should have no difficulty with that. Therefore, if I were in a Catholic school, it would not surprise me if the way in which the Reformation is taught had certain nuances which would be a little different from those I would encounter if I were in a Protestant school or if I were not in a religious school at all. Again, I should say that that does not remotely trouble me. What would trouble me would be if there were no such nuances. That is not what I am about.
Perhaps I may turn to areas where, again, I would not expect there to be any difference. In English literature, if the school play was "The Merchant of Venice", I would hope that the play would be dealt with in the same way in a Jewish school, in a Muslim school, in a Protestant school and in a school that was not religious at all. Equally, given his views on religion, if Shelley's poetry was being discussed in English literature classes, I would hope that no religious school would make any attempt to undermine the beauty of that poet's work by saying, "Well, it can't be very good because of his views". Again, I hope that that would not happen.
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Then I have to ask, if such things would not happen, then where does the religious impact come from? That takes me on to what started me on the subject in the debate on Second Reading; namely, the fact that there appear to be people who not only believe in what is called Creationism, but who actually think that it would be appropriate to introduce it into schools in the relevant subject, biology. I did not know that such people still existed in our country. I found that impossible to believe. I know that there are some flat earthers around; but when I inquired as to whether there were some flat earthers in our schools, I was not able to find a single case of anyone teaching physics on a flat earth basis.
The question I come to is this. For anyone who knows anything about biology—unfortunately, too few do—matters such as evolution and natural selection are not only a part of biology but permeate the whole of it. If a teacher were to include in the curriculum matters of a creationist kind, that would be immensely damaging. More to the point, who is there to protect the children against such an event? In the Emmanuel school case, Ofsted was not there to protect anyone. Indeed, Ofsted did not seem to notice it and gave the relevant school a good assessment.
A similar question arises in one of the most fascinating topics in the history of science—that is, the age of the universe. An attempt was made to show on the basis of the Old Testament that the earth was 4,040 years old. Indeed, an attempt was made to date the exact day and time that the world was created. It shows the incredible ingenuity of the human mind that one can do that kind of work. I find it marvellous.
Occasionally I come across people who, in the face of the fact that the world is billions of years old and, on the basis of all that we know about physics—the world will come to an end unless all the theories of entropies, thermodynamics and so on are wrong—say, "There is no problem here. The whole of the previous history was invented at the same time as the world was created 4,040 years ago and somehow there will be a new creation in several million years' time".
But those are substantive questions. My concern is to ask what goes on in these schools and what it is that they do. The schools that I know about do not behave in such a way. No school that I have come across so far—except for the Emmanuel school case—would dream of allowing such matters into the sciences, the arts and so on.
My worry is twofold. First, can I believe that that will be the case in the future, especially with the great expansion of what appears to be acceptable or called a religion? Secondly, will not existing schools, if the danger arises, also feel that they can safely go in that direction? I have no difficulty with people who have faith which is separate from science—it is a classic problem in philosophy—but I am always puzzled by the fact that for a lot of people who have faith, faith does not seem to be enough. The history of theology and philosophy shows that, ultimately, believers want more. They are not content to say, "I have faith in the existence of a deity", or, "I have faith in that".

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Throughout history, there has been an urgent desire to prove things as well. For the great thinkers, such as Thomas Aquinas, faith was not good enough; he needed a proof. I would argue that a proof is always impossible and you have to accept things as a matter of faith.
But these are side issues. The main issue is that the Government have said three things. First, they have said that they rather like religious schools; secondly, they have said that they would like to have more religious schools; and, thirdly, they have said that we have got to include more religions in the group that can have religious schools.
The reason I raise these matters, at twenty-five past ten at night, is to ask the simple question: how do we protect the national curriculum? How do we protect the great scientific traditions of our country and the great humanities traditions of our country from the encroachment of those who may not respect them and who would allow religious matters—which have their place—to cross over into these areas?
I repeat my point that I am not happy that I am raising these matters in an empty Chamber at a late hour. But, as this is when the amendments have come before the Committee, I have no choice. I have raised the matter, and I am interested to hear the response of one or two other Members of the Committee whom I hope I have persuaded to take part in the debate. I beg to move.
The Lord Bishop of Blackburn: I suspect that Members of the Committee expect me to make some contribution—although I must say that I had not interpreted the words of the amendment in the light in which the noble Lord, Lord Peston, referred to it. I had intended to speak of behalf of my former profession, RE teacher and specialist, and not on the generality of faith schools or on the Emmanuel school, which is no part of the Church of England's family of schools. I believe that the date the noble Lord was seeking is 4004 BC, which I believe Archbishop Ussher came up with in the 17th or 18th century.
I shall deal merely with the amendment and not with the larger questions raised. I do not believe it is appropriate to deal with those at this time of night, and I wholeheartedly support the noble Lord's comments about our procedures. No curriculum is value free when it is taught. When I was an RE specialist, I was always extremely worried about what the English masters were putting across by way of interpretation and values in regard to religious matters and the faith of others. That happens across the board.
The amendment as worded places a strict delimitation on religious education. I am sure that the noble Lord would agree that it is probably too vague to be practical in the real world of schools. For example, would it prohibit the teaching of the poetry of George Herbert or John Milton within the English
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curriculum, since an element of religious education is necessary to understand those authors' works? Would it place a similar—
Lord Peston: The answer to that sort of question is simply no. It would not prohibit such teaching.
The Lord Bishop of Blackburn: As worded, it could do so. One would be dealing with matters that are properly part of the RE curriculum in order to get the youngsters to understand the poetry. Again, it would almost rule out the teaching of the history of the Tudors because of the religious matters involved. One might ask how we deal with the Middle East today. As the amendment is worded, it gives rise to a series of issues that would lead to confusion and great difficulty.
I am trying to get my mind round this. I know that the amendment refers to the curriculum, which is published and agreed, and in the case of RE, through the SACRE, is carefully agreed by a series of groups of committees which come together to form that body. So it is probably more a matter of public participation in the creation of the curriculum in the generality of the community schools. As I understand it, the noble Lord is using the amendment as a peg for the general teaching that goes on.
It is said that hard cases make bad law. I wonder whether, by singling out the Emmanuel school in Gateshead, we are drifting into an area where, as the noble Lord admitted, we can think of no examples of schools in the maintained sector, or even within the generality of the independent sector, where these kinds of difficulties between science and religion occur. We need to be reminded that many scientists are people of faith and indeed practise their faiths across the great world religion. That is fact.
I hope that having raised this matter the noble Lord will wait until there is a greater engagement in the course of the Bill on the whole issue of faith schools and what they do or do not do.
As drafted, the amendment is unworkable and would do a great disservice to RE teachers and to others who deal with matters that raise ethical, moral, spiritual and religious issues in the general curriculum. On those grounds, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw the amendment.
10.30 p.m.
Baroness Blatch: I am puzzled by what appears to be almost an obsession on the part of the noble Lord, Lord Peston, about faith schools and his apparent fear of any extension of their numbers. He has made no secret of his disappointment in the present policy of welcoming and encouraging faith schools. The noble Lord is right that the amendment requires a great deal of debate, but, like the right reverend Prelate, I cannot get my mind round what he finds fundamentally disagreeable about the existence of faith schools. We shall deal later with the issue of whether we should have faith schools, so I shall leave my comments on

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that, but the noble Lord seems disturbed by the notion of faith schools and would apparently like them out of the system altogether.
The amendment would be almost impossible for teachers to comply with—not just RE teachers, but teachers generally. The impact of religion on art, culture, the lives of people and even on science, scientists and the ethics of science—I know that there is the whole Emmanuel issue to discuss—is so great that they are inextricably linked. That is why we have moved from religious instruction to religious education. This is all about religious education, not religious instruction. I am not offended by faith schools—in fact, I positively welcome them. We have always been very tolerant about these things in this country. We have a tradition of people who hold a strong faith but who positively prefer to go to a secular school, but we also have a tradition of people who hold a strong faith—or sometimes not such a strong faith—and who prefer the ethos of a school that supports a particular religion. I do not find that offensive. I find it all part of the rich pattern of education.
Like the right reverend Prelate, I find the amendments unworkable in an educational sense. They would do a disservice to teachers, but worse than that, it would be asking the impossible of teachers to accept what I believe is behind the amendments.
Baroness Walmsley: I am a biologist and my subject is most affected by the issue that the noble Lord, Lord Peston, has raised. Like him, I abhor the teaching of creationism in a state-funded school, mainly because it is so far beyond what any credible scientist would accept as to be incompatible with providing a broadly based education based on the real facts and possibly preparing our children for a career in science.
However, just as the noble Lord has difficulty understanding what is meant in other parts of the Bill, I have difficulty understanding what he means by "extraneous". I am afraid that I feel that Amendment No. 35 is unworkable.
On Amendment No. 36, society today has to deal with many ethical issues. As a biology teacher, I have always felt the responsibility to try to prepare children to make those decisions when they become adults.
I feel that there is a need to prepare children to make moral decisions, not based on a particular faith, on biological matters. I therefore feel that it is not inappropriate to introduce those types of issues into the teaching of science in our schools, particularly given that there are so many issues which citizens who take the responsibility to take part in politics feel they must take upon themselves. We have to prepare our children for that. Therefore, on this occasion, I am afraid that I am not able to support the noble Lord, Lord Peston, in his amendment.
Lord Dearing: I had guessed that the issue of Emmanuel might come up. Not knowing anything in particular about Emmanuel, I thought that I would find out what was going on so that it might inform the
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House. I have not a lot of expert knowledge. However, if creationism is defined, as I believe it often is, as a belief that,
"Earth History can be clearly dated to show that the world is younger than 10,000 years and … that the universe was made in six days, each made up of 24 hours",
then, according to Emmanuel,
"The truth is that our Science Department teaches neither".
Furthermore,
"Within the assumption that 'creationism' is defined",
as I have defined it,
"such 'creationism' is not and has never been taught within Emmanuel College".
I am told that the teachers,
"within the College's Science Department … hold a wide variety of views regarding these issues, ranging from atheistic evolution giving rise to life from nothing to the concept which sees everything as having been created by an Intelligent Designer God from nothing",
and innumerable views in between.
I made inquiries about the children who go to Emmanuel school. They correspond almost exactly with the normal ability range. In science, 87 per cent of them received A to C markings in GCSE, way above the national average. It is a faith school which is not a Church of England school. Being a technology college, it does not have a duty to teach the national curriculum, yet it does so in science. So perhaps there is more to be said about Emmanuel than is commonly thought. I was told that the matter is being pursued by Her Majesty's Inspectors and the Commons Science and Technology Committee. Perhaps we will see what they make of it.
I was puzzled by Amendments Nos. 35 and 36. If people are to be given greater freedom in the curriculum, new material will come in. I could not see precisely what the noble Lord, Lord Peston, had in mind in being so concerned about new material, unless it was specifically religious material. I do not think that it is part of the Government's thinking deliberately to make space for more religious teaching. However, RE is one of the subjects in the national curriculum examined at GCSE. Very many schools do the RE short course, which is the legitimate curriculum subject. It may be that, if there were more space in the curriculum, some schools would choose to do the full RE GCSE.
Religion is part of the reality of the world. We cannot wish it away. It is there around all of us. It is central to very many people's lives. It influences the way we live and what happens in our streets and our homes. We cannot say, "You must pretend there is not such a thing".
So I turn to the point made by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Blackburn. If one is teaching history after 1530 right through the Stuarts and even beyond, one cannot make sense of it without addressing the religious controversies of the day. People burned at the stake for them. Kingdoms were at risk for them. In human geography, one cannot avoid looking at the religious composition of the world. As the right reverend Prelate said, the point arises in

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teaching English literature. We would have to give kids some help to understand, for example, Manley Hopkins' poetry, which is so complex that his friend the Poet Laureate, Robert Bridges, could not understand it.
Religion is so much concerned with the way to live and about moral and ethical issues. They pervade art and literature. You cannot say that because religion considers those moral and ethical issues we cannot discuss moral and ethical issues in the context of other subjects. While I understand that within his framework of reference the noble Lord is concerned about freeing up the curriculum and providing opportunities as regards extraneous religious material, I do not think that that is part of anyone's thinking. If his thinking is that it is wrong in understanding life to take into account the religious dimension, he is not giving people a full education.
Lord Lucas: Although I come from the same side of the street as the noble Lord, Lord Peston, in being one of the irreligious, I do not think that he is going in the right direction with these amendments. I do not know of a serious faith which does not involve believing something that looks from my point of view totally ridiculous. It seems to be a characteristic of all faiths. Although creationism is particularly banana-brained in that it implies a God who has lied in every living thing and in the air, water and rocks beneath us and only told the truth in a book—which I find a pretty strange God—I do not think that this is something we should worry about too much. If it affected the way the curriculum was taught and the way a school was being properly conducted, it would be the kind of thing which Ofsted ought to pick up. If Ofsted thinks that something is going wrong in that regard, that ought to be taken seriously. However, I believe that we are well enough guarded by Ofsted which may have missed this point once but has now been put on guard against these things. It is a matter it will have to watch if we expand the range of religions which have schools and it is something we shall have to watch generally. However, I think that that is sufficient.
In particular, I do not think that we should go down the roads proposed by the amendments. I am enormously in favour of broadening out curriculum subjects, of merging them or doing things in different ways and not teaching in little compartments which so restrict us and do not allow the discussion of history in the context of science or science in the context of history, as if the two were separate things at such a basic level as GCSE. I should like to see much fuzzier boundaries between subjects, if one could find a way of introducing them and teaching effectively. If you have a religious school—there are many religious people who want religious schools and I have no objection at all to them having them—everything in that school will be permeated by the religion concerned. I cannot think of a single subject which would not be touched by a religion, even one that is as familiar to me as Catholicism. Certainly, what is true for that surely must be true for most religions. I do not
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think that you can separate out religious feeling from other subjects. You can do so possibly as regards mathematics but not as regards any other subject.
I do not think that the noble Lord can claim that economics is safe from religion. I regard Marxism as a religion and that has exerted plenty of influence on economics. I do not think that we should seek to draw these boundaries or seek to exclude religion or philosophy from application to any subject where they have a bearing.
Lord Roberts of Conwy: Would my noble friend care to comment on the fact that the individual pupil will also bring something to the teaching that he receives? It is very possible, say, with history, to take a purely religious line almost throughout. Similarly, the pupil can bring his own ethics, morals and home background to bear through his religion on all the other subjects that we have talked about.
10.45 p.m.
Lord Lucas: I entirely agree. Most of us develop a healthy scepticism for the philosophic element of what we are taught in school and we accumulate our own philosophies from a variety of sources. I have left behind many of the things that my teachers would have liked to inculcate into me, and I imagine that many other Members of the Committee have done so, too.
This is a serious subject but I do not believe that the amendments are the right way to approach it. I hope that we shall later return to the question of the way in which religion in schools should relate to the state. To say that religion should not be part of the curriculum or permeate all subjects is to misunderstand what we are as human beings, which is essentially philosophic beings who bring our beliefs into every aspect of what we do and study.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I am beginning to feel rather sorry for the noble Lord, Lord Peston, but I am not going to provide him with any succour by saying that I agree with him.
The amendments are unworkable and I fundamentally do not agree with their approach. I could not understand Amendment No. 35 when I read it; I just put two exclamation marks beside it and waited to see what he said. Perhaps we should try following the logic of his proposal. The theories of Keynes would have been regarded as heresy and would never have been taught because they would have been regarded as being extraneous to the economics curriculum by many economists in the 1930s. The teachings of many people at any moment in time—Galileo and Darwin are two examples—were regarded as being totally heretical to the mainstream school of thought at that time. Knowledge progresses, as we know perfectly well, by debating such matters.
I have no sympathy with the proposal. Amendment No. 35 is totally illiberal. On Amendment No, 36, I agree with all those who said that our whole culture is infiltrated to a very great degree. One cannot put these matters into little boxes. As my noble friend Lady

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Walmsley said, in teaching biology one has to approach and discuss various points of ethics. That is true of many other areas. I am sorry but I simply do not agree with the amendments.
Lord Davies of Oldham: It is my misfortune this evening to have been involved, first, with a small technical series of amendments, in relation to which I ran into untold trouble, and now with the most fundamental debate that could ever take place in the House on education. I have arrived equipped with a contribution that would last for an hour and a half but, in deference to the lateness of the hour, to which my noble friend has drawn attention, I will truncate it to three or four minutes.
I was unable to respond to my noble friend's earlier plea that his debate should be arranged for a more convenient time because, first, an arrangement had been arrived at through the usual channels before he stood up. I am the last person, as I am sure he will agree, to break agreements between the usual channels.
Secondly, my noble friend will recall that it was Hegel who said that the owl of Minerva takes flight at night. If we are going to have a philosophical and religious debate, we should have it quite late in the evening. Unfortunately, we cannot go beyond 11 p.m. so we shall have a rather more truncated debate than he might like.
A third factor, to which Members of the Committee have referred, is involved; that is, that this debate is taking place within the framework of this piece of legislation and has been raised through amendments to the legislation. I am afraid that my noble friend is bound by the rules of the game. As and when those amendments come up, that is when they will be debated.
It is also the case that, although many of us would like to indulge in substantial debate on the depth of these issues, on which he made a most eloquent plea, we are concerned with what the amendments would do to the Bill. I am bound therefore to restrict my remarks somewhat to the technicalities in that regard. However, I do so gladly and against the background that there have been outstanding contributions from all Members of the Committee who have spoken in this debate. I know that the noble Lord is in a minority but he put his case with the greatest eloquence. That is why he provoked everyone to respond to him. I have strained to match his eloquence and believe that in every case I have succeeded in doing so and have answered many of the issues that he raised.
I was grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, for defining the Emmanuel position. I have substantial information on that, but the noble Lord indicated that the college teaches science in a manner and to a level which is acceptable to Ofsted, to inspectors and to the examination board which examines the students. Therefore, I believe that he can rest assured on that point.
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With regard to the more general issue of how prescriptive we could be about particular subjects, I believe that everyone who has spoken in the debate—in particular, the right reverend Prelate—has identified how difficult that matter is. There is no doubt about it; it is not only a question that certain themes embrace more than one academic subject but that we are only too happy to see certain academic subjects broadened out and taken in conjunction with other issues. To take the most obvious example, citizenship has recently been introduced into the curriculum. We should certainly never be able to discuss citizenship unless we did so in the context of religion as well; otherwise, how would we spread the concept of understanding other faiths and reach the degree of tolerance that we should like to see developed in our society, which is a crucial part of citizenship?
Likewise, as Members on all sides of the Committee have indicated, there are a number of ways in which subjects interlink and inform each other so as to produce genuine education and enlightenment for students. Therefore, in those terms, I believe that we have had a most useful theoretical debate. My only comment to my noble friend is that he is a skilled parliamentarian. He knows that there are other ways in which these issues can be debated at great length, even in the afternoon. It is for him to employ that strategy if he so wishes.
However, this evening we are discussing his amendments. In addition to the reservations that have been expressed about the amendments on all sides of the Chamber, perhaps I may make the most obvious point. If the amendments were carried, we should be placing on schools which had received earned autonomy a restriction greater than that placed on all other schools. I am sure that my noble friend does not intend that. I believe that he is seeking to air the issue, and he does so within this framework. But the logic of the amendment would be that schools which reached the position of earned autonomy would find themselves at a level of restriction which they would not be under if they had not earned that autonomy. Surely that would be a great contradiction in terms.
I recognise the value of my noble friend's contribution this evening. I believe that we have all enjoyed the debate. I know that I am being dreadfully short in this all-too-truncated reply, but perhaps I may assure him that I have used one-eighth of the notes that I have available. There may be another occasion on which he can explore these matters, and I am sure that he will take full advantage of that. However, this evening I hope that he will withdraw the amendment.
Lord Peston: I thank my noble friend for his reply. Obviously I am losing my talent as a teacher. I believed that I was debating the subject of religious schools; I was not debating religion. If noble Lords want to hear me on the subject of religion, they will really hear something.
I must also say, very acerbically, that I have heard some nonsense in my time, but some of the ideas that I have heard this evening beat everything—for example,

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the notion that religion permeates economics. I hope that if my good friend the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, were asked, "If the supply curve is upward-sloping and the demand curve shifts to the right", she would not say that that was an ethical question, or at least I hope that she would not expect to receive any marks for that. I hope that she would not say that it was a religious question, but simply answer, "As price goes up, quantity goes up".
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I say to the noble Lord that I do not believe that I said that religion permeates economics in any sense.
Lord Lucas: Not so much religion, but philosophy should. I believe that one of the great faults with mainstream economics has been how little it takes account of how we act as people and of feelings and emotions.
Lord Peston: There really is a limit to how much teaching I can do this evening. I can only say that that reply scores nought out of 10 on any analysis of the subject. I did learn from the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley. I would be absolutely horrified if biology is taught not as a science, but as including an ethical element. I have no difficulty with ethics in teaching, but if I am teaching biology or its equivalent, I teach biology. I would certainly say that there are ethical dimensions related to it. As regards economics, I have no difficulty about it, but not when I am teaching the subject, which is the point.
Baroness, Walmsley: I believe that the noble Lord has picked up my meaning exactly, which was to make sure that students knew the context of the discussions within society as a whole in which they were learning certain facts, which then would enable them to make decisions.
Lord Peston: I agree with that entirely. I do not want to prolong this discussion. My noble friend will he well aware of the tricks that I shall be up to at Report stage to make sure that I get a full debate at the proper time. I am simply asking the question that if we have religious schools, what do they do which is so special? Does religion work through the curriculum and work to its detriment? If religion does not work through the curriculum, I do not know what religious schools do. That is my point. I shall return to that in due course.
928
I say to the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, that I should have thought that religion comes into an enormous number of subjects. I cannot imagine how one can teach history without talking about religion because it is part of the subject. Earlier I enthusiastically said that we must have an acquaintance with the Bible if only because without it one cannot understand English literature at all. But that is not remotely what my amendment concerns. I am trying to deal with religious schools and what it is that everyone is so keen on. I am also uttering a word of warning. I believe that moving along these paths will be bad for our country.
I ask my noble friend that if "the usual channels" do deals, could they possibly let the rest of us know what they are? It might well help us in how to proceed. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Blatch: Before the noble Lord sits down, would he not give some credit for the fact that formal education in this country was introduced by the Churches? It was they who brought young people together to be educated and formal education grew out of that provision.
Lord Peston: That is not quite right. The Churches played an enormously important role in educating the poor. I said at Second Reading that no one could ever be other than supportive of the great contribution the Church of England made to education, particularly to the education of the poor. But there have always been educational establishments that were not religious. I would not remotely want to undermine the role of the Church. But I again emphasise that I do not see what that has to do with policy making today. I hope that we shall have a good chance to return to that. I am still trying to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 36 to 38 not moved.]
Lord Davies of Oldham: I beg to move that the House do now resume.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House resumed.
House adjourned at one minute to eleven o'clock.

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