Sitting of 18 November 1999

Preamble
The House met at half-past Eleven o'clock
PRAYERS
[Madam Speaker in the Chair]

Business of the House
11.33 am
Sir George Young: May I ask the Leader of the House to give us the business for next week?
The President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mrs. Margaret Beckett): Madam Speaker, you informed the House yesterday of the subjects for debate on the Queen's Speech. The business for the remainder of the week commencing 22 November will be:
Thursday 25 November—Motion to take note of the outstanding reports of the Public Accounts Committee to which the Government have replied. Details will be given in the Official Report.
Friday 26 November—There will be a debate on Government support for the arts on a motion for the Adjournment of the House. Additionally, at the end of the main debate on Tuesday 23 November, motion on the draft Maximum Number of Judges Order 1999. The provisional business for the following week will be as follows:
Monday 29 November—Second Reading of the Electronic Communications Bill.
Tuesday 30 November—Second Reading of the Representation of the People Bill.
Motion relating to the Postal Privilege (Suspension) Order 1999.
Wednesday 1 December—There will be a debate on the European Union on a motion for the Adjournment of the House in advance of the European Council Meeting in Helsinki on 10 and 11 December.
Thursday 2 December—Second Reading of the Resource Accounting and Budgeting Bill.
Friday 3 December—The House will not be sitting.
The House will wish to be reminded that, as from the week commencing 29 November, there will be sittings in Westminster Hall. I shall announce the proposed subjects for debate in my business statement next week. Adjournment debates previously held in the Chamber on Wednesday mornings will, in future, take place in Westminster Hall. As the House is already aware, there will be no morning Adjournment debates on Wednesday 24 November.
The House will also wish to know that on Monday 22 November there will be a debate on the World Trade Organisation millennium round in European Standing Committee C. On Thursday 25 November there will be
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a debate on taxation and financial services in European Standing Committee B. Details of the relevant documents will be given in the Official Report.
[Monday 22 November 1999:
European Standing Committee C—Relevant European Union documents: 10297/99, World Trade Organisation Millennium Round; Relevant European Scrutiny Committee Report: HC 34-xxx, (1998–99).
[Thursday 25 November 1999:

European Standing Committee B—Relevant European Union documents: 8329/99, Taxation and Financial Services; 6615/98, 8781/98, 8484/1/99. Relevant European Legislation Committee Reports: HC 155-xxv; HC 155-xxxvi and HC 155-xxxiii (1997–98). Relevant European Scrutiny Committee reports: HC 34-xvi; HC 34-xxiii and HC 34-xxviii (1998–99).
Sir George Young: The House is grateful to the Leader of the House for giving next week's business, and for an indication of the business for the following week.
I begin this Session as I ended the last, with a reminder that we are still awaiting a debate on the royal commission on long-term care. I hope that it will not be too long before we can find time for that important debate.
In view of the promising developments in Northern Ireland, can the Leader of the House tell us whether the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland plans to make a statement, either tomorrow or next week?
The Leader of the House announced the new sittings in Westminster Hall. Will she give guidance to Members on how the experiment will work, and how they should apply to have the relevant debates?
This is the first Queen's Speech since devolution, and the Leader of the House has announced the Second Reading of a number of Bills. Will the Government indicate in advance which Bills are United Kingdom Bills and which cover England and Wales only? For example, on fur farming, it is not clear whether the proposed Bill is a UK Bill or an England and Wales Bill. It would be genuinely helpful if Members knew.
Usually, there is a debate in Government time in the autumn on either the unified Budget or the public expenditure announcement. There is a risk of losing that debate. Will the Leader of the House assure us that there will be a debate on the economy, public expenditure or the pre-Budget statement before Christmas?
Finally, with memories of the disarray of the last Session fresh in our minds, may I ask the Leader of the House whether, in their programme, the Government have bitten off more than the House is able to chew?
Mrs. Beckett: On long-term care, I hope and anticipate that we will be able to schedule a debate on the matter, perhaps before Christmas.
On Northern Ireland, I cannot tell the right hon. Gentleman at what point my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will be able to come to this House and make a statement. However, I can assure him that the Government intend to keep the House informed. Clearly, the timing is not entirely in our hands.
The right hon. Gentleman asked about the sittings in Westminster Hall, and it is our intention to provide some guidance. The Select Committee on Modernisation of the

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House of Commons suggested that I, as Leader of the House, might write to all hon. Members to remind them of how the debates are to be organised and sought. I have that in hand.
The right hon. Gentleman asked about Bills which are UK-wide and Bills which are for England and Wales only. We anticipate that that will be clear at their introduction, but I accept his point that it will be helpful to the House to know.
The right hon. Gentleman referred to an autumn debate following the pre-Budget statement. That is a matter that we can discuss through the usual channels.
Finally, I reject the right hon. Gentleman's contention that the Session ended in some disarray. I thought that it ended remarkably smoothly, with the Government getting not only all the legislation forecast in the previous Queen's Speech, but more legislation than had been forecast. There is a full legislative programme for the new Session—although that is not what Conservative Members said yesterday, when they claimed that there was nothing in the Queen's Speech.
I remind the right hon. Gentleman of an important development for the House, and an important potential improvement to the way in which we manage our business. A number of Bills foreshadowed in the Queen's Speech concern matters which have had substantial pre-legislative scrutiny in different Committees, and a number have been available in draft for a considerable period. That will make a big difference to the way in which the House can handle them.
Charlotte Atkins: Can we have a debate on mutuality, in view of the imminent threat to my local building society, Leek United, and other local mutual societies, from the asset-stripping company Murray Financial? That would also give us the opportunity to debate the report from the Select Committee on the Treasury on demutualisation, which is an important issue.
Mrs. Beckett: I cannot undertake at present to find time for a special debate on the important issue to which my hon. Friend refers, but perhaps I can remind her that there is a trade and industry debate on Friday as part of the Queen's Speech debates and that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor will introduce a debate on the economy on Wednesday.
Mr. Paul Tyler: We endorse the request from the official Opposition for an urgent debate on the royal commission on long-term care. I hope that we can have that quickly.
Will the Leader of the House address the issue of early-day motions, which have in the past been discouraged by the attempt by some outside the House to treat them as parliamentary wallpaper? Some early-day motions receive the support of large numbers of hon. Members. For example, early-day motion 16,
[That this House welcomes the proposed national Fleet Air Arm Memorial in honour of more than 6,000 men and women who gave their lives in service with the Royal Naval Air Service and the Fleet Air Arm from 1914 to 1918 and since 1938, respectively; acknowledges the vital
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role played by naval aviation in defence of freedom during the 20th century; recalls the 40 battle honours won in two world wars and in subsequent campaigns, including Korea, Borneo, the Falklands, the Gulf and the Adriatic; and believes that the unveiling of the Memorial in June 2000, in Victoria Embankment Gardens outside the Ministry of Defence, will be a fitting tribute to those who have died and an inspiration to future generations.], received the signatures of 101 hon. Members on the first full day back. Early-day motion 17 received 287 signatures; early-day motion 29 received 192; and early-day motion 51, 135.
That is a considerable expression of parliamentary opinion. Will the Leader of the House consider how early-day motions could be debated, perhaps by a ballot of those that receive the most signatures? Could not the Modernisation Committee consider some way of reintroducing real debates on real motions, rather than allowing them merely to sit on the Order Paper?
Mrs. Beckett: I recognise that the hon. Gentleman, along with the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir G. Young), has been pressing for a debate on long-term care, and he will have heard my response.
The hon. Gentleman's other point has two important implications: the handling of early-day motions and whether we can find a way of debating them again; and the means and forum for such debates and whether that is a matter for the Modernisation Committee. Obviously, the matter can be discussed in that Committee but, as he will know, following proposals already made by the Committee on sittings in Westminster Hall, there are substantial extra opportunities for debate. Regardless of whether the matter arises directly as part of the mechanism of early-day motions, when there is an issue of genuine interest and concern, there is nothing to stop hon. Members using other means of raising it in the House.
Mr. Harry Barnes: Tonight's Adjournment debate is to be on objective 2 funding in Beverley and Holderness. In order to save Member after Member applying for Adjournment debates on objective 2 status for their areas, could not we have a general debate, so that all those who have concerns can question the Minister?
Mrs. Beckett: That is an interesting remark. I remind my hon. Friend that there is a trade and industry debate on Friday. I cannot at the moment undertake to find time for a special debate on objective 2 funding, but I completely accept his basic point that there should be better ways of handling the matter than for every hon. Member to try to get a debate on his or her area. When I write to hon. Members, I shall draw attention to the variety of ways in which they have the opportunity to raise issues, and I hope that that will be of assistance.
Mr. James Gray: One of the notable omissions from the Queen's Speech was any mention of farming, with the single exception of fur farming. Is the Leader of the House aware that pigs today cost £7 more to produce than the price that they achieve at the abattoir and that the industry is losing about £2 million a week and facing total meltdown before Christmas? Will she find time for a full day's debate on the plight of the pig farming industry and, if not, does she accept that pig farming may disappear in this country before fur farming?
Mrs. Beckett: Unless the Conservatives intend to subsume agriculture in today's debate on the countryside

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and the environment, they have not chosen to make it one of the subjects on which we shall focus during the debates on the Queen's Speech.
Mr. John Redwood: That is today's debate.
Mrs. Beckett: Yes, I realise that, but the right hon. Gentleman's party has not singled out agriculture and farming for debate. I was under the impression that the Conservative party's general approach was that there was too much legislation and regulation, but the hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr. Gray) seems to be calling for more. I merely note that degree of inconsistency. The hon. Gentleman will know that the Government have given substantial help and are concerned about the plight of pig farmers and farmers in general. We shall continue to keep matters under review.
Mr. Malcolm Savidge: Following on from the point made by the hon. Member for North Cornwall (Mr. Tyler), may I ask my right hon. Friend whether time can be found for a debate on early-day motion 929 from the last Session, which attracted more signatures than any other? That motion showed the overwhelming support of Back Benchers from all parties for an appeal asking the United States Senate to reconsider the comprehensive test ban treaty. I have forwarded the early-day motion to President Clinton and to the leaders of the Senate in the hope that they may follow the example of the House of Commons in putting global security before partisan politics. I fear that if they do not do so, they may endanger non-proliferation.
Mrs. Beckett: My hon. Friend makes a serious point about a matter that has raised concern on both sides of the House and across the world. Anxiety remains that the signal from the American Senate may hinder the cause of non-proliferation. The strong expression of views by Members of the House of Commons will not go unnoticed, but this is hardly the first time that partisan politics has gone against national and international interests.
Rev. Martin Smyth: I understand that, in keeping with growing tradition, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland may make a statement elsewhere today. Meanwhile, may I plead with the Leader of the House for a debate on the Patten report, a plea that I have made before? Before the consultation period is over, may the House have an opportunity to express its views on the report?
Mrs. Beckett: Others may be making statements today. I am not clear of the time scale on these matters, and the hon. Gentleman may be more familiar than I am with the detail of how matters are shifting. However, the Government have sought throughout the process to keep the House properly informed, and we shall continue to do so. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that when my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland feels that the time is right to make a statement to the House, he will certainly do so. Indeed, he is eager to do so, as we are all eager that the Good Friday Agreement should reach a successful conclusion.
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The hon. Gentleman rightly reminds me that he has previously asked about a debate on the Patten report. I cannot undertake to schedule such a debate, but I will draw his remarks to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State.
Dr. George Turner: I am sorry to have to tell the House that the Barclays bank branch in Heacham will close tomorrow. This is one of many bank closures in rural areas of England, and I am sure that it results from general market failure. None of the banks seems able to justify a presence in our larger villages. There are 5,000 people in Heacham, and Barclays is the last bank there. Will the Government recognise that when markets fail, we need new initiatives to help people in rural areas, particularly those who have neither cars nor easy access to neighbouring market towns? Can the House debate that issue at an early date?
Ms. Beckett: I understand my hon. Friend's concern. I note that Conservative Members seem amused by the prospect of his constituents losing their opportunity to access valuable services, an attitude in sharp contrast with their professed concern for people in rural areas. I should remind my hon. Friend that today's debate focuses on the countryside as well as the environment and transport. The Treasury team will attend Wednesday's debate. However, I accept that he is making an important point. I assure him that the Government give great attention to rural issues and expect to publish further proposals in due course.
Mr. Eric Forth: The Leader of the House will be aware that today's Order Paper shows two First Readings, one of the Government Resources and Accounts Bill and the other of the Freedom of Information Bill. Will she consider allowing us an urgent debate as a preliminary to the Second Reading debates on those Bills, so that we can attempt to influence them? It is becoming increasingly obvious that Ministers, especially the Prime Minister, are either genuinely ignorant of Government financial matters such as taxation and expenditure, or give the wrong impression of such matters from time to time both to the House and to the public. Would it not be helpful to have a proper framework of public information, perhaps based on those two Bills, so that we in the House and the public in general could be assured that no matter what the Prime Minister tells us, the truth will somehow come out?
Mrs. Beckett: That was a rather elaborate attempt to make some general, although ill-founded, political points. I simply remind the right hon. Gentleman that he shows less than his usual skill in choosing those two examples, because both those Bills have had substantial pre-scrutiny.
Mr. Desmond Swayne: This afternoon Serplan, which represents 18 million people in the south-east, is likely to reject the proposals of the Crow report. It is vital that the Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions makes a speedy decision, and I believe that it would assist him if we debated the issue in the House. I realise that it will be possible to raise the matter in the debate this afternoon, but I believe that it is a vital issue that merits a full day's debate.
Mrs. Beckett: I simply remind the hon. Gentleman that he can raise the issue today. No doubt he will also look

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for other opportunities to do so, and I shall make a point of ensuring that his name is on the mailing list for the letter telling hon. Members how to raise issues in Westminster Hall.
Mr. Crispin Blunt: Can the Leader of the House assure us that when the defence White Paper finally arrives we will have a full two-day debate on it, as well as, at the end of the Session, another two-day debate on the defence estimates for next year? Will she assure us that we will not lose two days' defence debates because the Government have been late in producing this year's White Paper?
Secondly, will the right hon. Lady ensure, as a matter of priority, that one of the first debates on Select Committee reports is on the Defence Committee's unanimous report on the future of the Defence Evaluation and Research Agency, which found that the Government's privatisation proposals were fatally flawed and should not proceed?
Thirdly, may we, as a matter of urgency, have a statement by the Secretary of State for Defence on his proposals for some form of enlarged Euro corps, such as we have read about in the newspapers? Some of us do not quite understand, and are confused about where all those troops will come from, so we wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman might like to float those ideas across Parliament at some stage.
Mrs. Beckett: There is no question of any debating time for defence matters being lost. I made it clear at the outset that although the White Paper has been delayed—I shall return to that point in a moment—the Government intend to allow the full range of scrutiny. The hon. Gentleman will realise, however, that we shall want the White Paper to go to the Select Committee first, and I am sure that he, too, would want that to happen. He said that the White Paper was late, as if that resulted from fault on the Government's part. May I remind him that we had a small war, and there was some feeling that that ought to be reflected in what would otherwise have been a routine presentation of the White Paper?
The hon. Gentleman also asked me to schedule an early debate on the Select Committee report on DERA. That report has only just been published, and I am sure that he would wish the Government to give it proper consideration and respond to it, as indeed we shall. I also remind him that the order for scheduling debates on Select Committee reports is not solely a matter for me; it is an important function of the Liaison Committee, and any Leader of the House who sought to usurp that function would be treading on difficult territory. Finally, I remind him that there will, of course, be an opportunity to raise defence matters in the debate on the Queen' s Speech.

BILLS PRESENTED

  Representation Of the People
  Mr. Secretary Straw, supported by the Prime Minister, Mr. Secretary Prescott, Mr. Secretary Reid, Mr. Secretary Murphy, Mr. Secretary Mandelson and Mr. Mike O'Brien, presented a Bill to make new provision with respect to the registration of voters for the purposes of parliamentary
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  and local government elections; to make other provision in relation to voting at such elections; and for connected purposes: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed. Explanatory notes to be printed [Bill 2].

  Government Resources and Accounts
  Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, supported by Margaret Beckett, Mr. Secretary Milburn, Mr. Secretary Hoon, Mr. Andrew Smith, Dawn Primarolo, Mr. Stephen Timms and Miss Melanie Johnson, presented a Bill to make provision about government resources and accounts; to provide for financial assistance for a body established to participate in public-private partnerships; and for connected purposes: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed. Explanatory notes to be printed [Bill 3].
  Electronic Communications
  Mr. Secretary Byers, supported by the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Secretary Straw, Mr. Secretary Reid, Marjorie Mowlam, Mr. Secretary Murphy, Mr. Secretary Mandelson and Ms Patricia Hewitt, presented a Bill to make provision to facilitate the use of electronic communications and electronic data storage; to make provision about the modification of licences granted under section 7 of the Telecommunications Act; and for connected purposes: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed. Explanatory notes to be printed [Bill 4].
  Financial Services and Markets
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer, supported by Mr. Secretary Straw, Mr. Secretary Darling, Mr. Secretary Byers, Mr. Secretary Milburn, Jane Kennedy, Mr. Graham Stringer, Mr. Andrew Smith, Dawn Primarolo, Mr. Stephen Timms and Miss Melanie Johnson, presented a Bill to make provision about the regulation of financial services and markets; to provide for the transfer of certain statutory functions relating to building societies, friendly societies, industrial and provident societies and certain other mutual societies; and for connected purposes: Pursuant to Order [25 October], the Bill was ordered to be printed [Bill 1], was read the First and Second time without Question put, and stood committed to a Standing Committee in respect of clauses 135 to 367 and Schedules 12 to 17 with the same Members as the Members of the Standing Committee on the Bill in the previous Session. Explanatory notes to be printed.
  Freedom of Information
  Mr. Secretary Straw, supported by the Prime Minister, Marjorie Mowlam, Mr. Secretary Byers, Mr. Secretary Murphy, Mr. Secretary Mandelson and Mr. Mike O'Brien, presented a Bill to make provision for the disclosure of information held by public authorities or by persons providing services for them and to amend the Data Protection Act 1998 and the Public Records Act 1958; and for connected purposes: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed. Explanatory notes to be printed [Bill 5].
Orders of the Day

  Debate on the Address
  [Second Day]
  Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question [17 November],
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, as follows:
  Most Gracious Sovereign,
  We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament—[Dr. Jack Cunningham.]
  Question again proposed.

  Environment, Transport and the Countryside
  11.56 am
  The Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions (Mr. John Prescott): I am sorry that I cut getting here rather fine, but as the person responsible for transport, I cannot blame the public transport system for being late.
  As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made clear yesterday, the Government are about fairness, enterprise and justice. Indeed, over the past two and a half years we have shown our commitment to those principles and our determination to build a fairer, more modern Britain.
  All the evidence from elections and polls show that the Government enjoy a level of support at mid term that is quite unprecedented and compares very well with the unpopularity of the Thatcher Government. Despite what the Leader of the Opposition said yesterday, we must be doing something right.
  I am bound to say, having listened to the right hon. Gentleman's speech—and this seems to be the general opinion—that his jokes were far more impressive than the contents of his speech. Having listened to the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) on the "Today" programme this morning, it appears that the sole job of the Opposition is simply to oppose, even if it means changing their policies along the way or, indeed, doing exactly the opposite to what they did in government or what they promised to do in government. They seem to have a new park-and-ride policy: they park the old policy and ride the new one in opposition—[Hon. Members: "More."] It was a start, but I want to do it with substance.
  The legislative programme set out in the Queen's Speech yesterday is indeed about modernising Britain—modernising our education system and our hospitals, tackling crime and creating a strong economy. I was particularly proud to hear a Labour Prime Minister talking about a strong, modern economy and the highest number of people in work for decades. We are particularly proud of that. I want to address some of my remarks to the quality of life and there is no better way of improving the quality of life than having a job, working and making a contribution to society. It is an important concept—a modern Britain is about providing a decent quality of life for everyone, not just a few. Indeed, my Department has a central role in local and regional government,
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  environmental protection, housing regeneration and transport. During the past two years it has improved the quality of the water we drink, the air we breathe, the homes in which we live and our local services. Those are all measurable improvements.
  For the first time in years, people are returning to public transport, making it a growth industry once again and utilising thousands more train and bus services that the Government helped to fund. If one talks to those in the industry, it is clear that there is more confidence in Labour and a belief that we consider it an important part of the transport system. The evidence is there and people can make their own judgments.
  The major legislative programme announced yesterday for my Department covers many issues that are central to quality of life, and that will make a real difference to millions of people throughout the country. It will further modernise local authorities, giving people a choice about how they are governed, promoting well-being in local communities and tackling sleaze. It will give us a modern and integrated public transport system, turning around years of underinvestment. It will make the system safer, improve services and increase choice. It will improve the quality of our countryside, offering greater protection for wildlife and improved access for everyone, rather than the privileged few. The Opposition, when in government, used to talk about many of those aims, but they failed to pass the legislation to implement them.
  For 18 years, the Conservative Government systematically undermined local democracy. Their idea of democracy was to abolish the Greater London Council and the metropolitan councils, crippling local government and taking power away from local people. They imposed the poll tax, which cost taxpayers billions of pounds and totally failed as a form of local authority financing. They also imposed a crude capping system on all local authorities. The Conservative Government's obsession with the market gave us compulsory competitive tendering and worse services.
  Mr. John Bercow: This is a history lesson.
  Mr. Prescott: Yes, it is. I want to remind the Opposition of the policies that the Conservative Government imposed. The electorate should remember what 18 years of Tory Government did to local government services, transport and the countryside.
  Local authorities now have a secure basis on which to plan. For the first time in years, no capping limits have been announced in advance and no councils have been capped. That never happened under a Tory Government, but it has happened under this Labour Government.
  Mr. James Gray: If the right hon. Gentleman is so determined to return local democracy to local people and local councils, will he allow local authorities a fourth option in the forthcoming reorganisation of local government? That would be to retain a system akin to—or a slight modification of—the current committee system?
  Mr. Prescott: I advise the hon. Gentleman to wait until the Bill is published. Such questions will be answered then.

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  We have replaced the restrictive practice of compulsory competitive tendering introduced by the previous Administration with a duty to provide best value. That will improve the effectiveness of all local authority services in giving a better deal to local people. The proposal has been welcomed by Tory as well as Labour local authorities. The emphasis will be on the quality of services provided to local people, not on the least cost—the great obsession of the previous Administration until the poll tax, which was about maximum cost and very little benefit.
  The third new local government Bill announced in the Queen's Speech will continue our campaign to modernise local government. We are committed to local government that is open, accountable and which secures the delivery of efficient and high-quality services. It will enable people to make choices about how they are governed. If they want a mayor, they will be able to say so in a referendum.
  The Bill will also tackle sleaze and introduce a new ethical framework and statutory code of conduct for councillors. I am sure that that will be welcomed by all parties. There will be a bond of trust between the community and those who represent them—an essential requirement for confidence in local government. The conduct of everyone in local government—councillors and officers—must be of the highest standards. The Bill will also give local authorities a new power to promote the social, economic and environmental well-being of their communities.
  The Bill will also tackle the culture of intolerance, fear and ignorance created by section 28 of the Local Government Act 1988. No decent person should tolerate the marginalisation and exclusion from society that section 28 promotes. However, I make it clear that repeal of that measure will not provide a licence for abuse. We will not tolerate such things and we will be tough on any such offensives. However, this is a matter of social justice: there is no place in any fair society for the intolerance, fear and ignorance brought by section 28. It has no place in a modern Britain.
  Dr. Julian Lewis: I agree with the Deputy Prime Minister that intolerance of people with minority life styles is entirely inappropriate. However, does he agree that the purpose of section 28 was not to promote intolerance, but to prevent the active promotion, in the classroom and elsewhere, of homosexuality as a way of life?
  Mr. Prescott: That was the intention; it was a fair and proper intention. The difficulty has been that the fear of prosecution has prohibited people from talking about the difficulties that youngsters face during puberty and the development of their sexuality. That is what it is about and it is a difficult balance—I will not say that it is easy. People have strong views about the matter and I understand that. The Government's judgment is that section 28 does not help in that process and that we need to repeal it—and, indeed, we shall.
  Another matter with which the previous Administration failed to deal—there was much talk about it and they made one or two efforts but failed to do anything—is leasehold reform. For 18 years, the Tories failed to do
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  anything about local government; we are delivering. Similarly, for years they talked a lot but failed to deliver on effective leasehold reform, allowing unscrupulous freeholders to continue to exploit leaseholders. In contrast, we are delivering. Our Bill will reform the present leasehold system to give leaseholders a fairer deal. It will extend choice and make it easier for leaseholders collectively to buy their freehold and it will give them the right to manage their own building. Alongside that, we will create a new type of tenancy, commonhold, which will allow people collectively to own and manage their building from the outset, without the need for a separate freehold.
  Those reforms will modernise housing tenure. They are difficult legal concepts, as hon. Members on both sides of the House are well aware. During the consultation process for the Bill we received many highly complex legal proposals, to which we are addressing ourselves. Through the draft Bill outlined in the Queen's Speech, the House can begin to take the first steps to reform leasehold, which is creating a great deal of social injustice in housing.
  Mr. Peter L. Pike: That is an important and complex issue. The problems associated with leasehold in the south are different from those of long-term leasehold in the north—where there are long-term rentals with minimum conditions, but the new freeholders are pressurising many elderly people. Does my right hon. Friend believe that the legislation will deal with those two very different types of problem, given the complexities to which he referred?
  Mr. Prescott: I am well aware of the problem to which my hon. Friend refers. I fought as a candidate for the Southport constituency in 1966. While not all constituencies have problems with leasehold, Southport certainly did. It is a matter of grave concern. The problems are different throughout the country, which is why we embarked on the consultation process and the draft Bill. The House will have an opportunity to continue the debate. My hon. Friend has discussed the matter with Ministers and we will continue to discuss it. We do not underestimate the difficulties and the legal complexities. However, one has to make a decision at the end of the day. We want to deal with all the ramifications. That is our intention in the Bill and it will be welcomed by all concerned.
  Mr. Bercow: I am grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way and I apologise for asking him to press the rewind button. Earlier, the right hon. Gentleman said that the substitution of the so-called best-value approach for that of compulsory competitive tendering had been widely welcomed by a variety of local authorities, thereby apparently proving that the producer interests, at least, were on his side. Can he provide a single example of an end user who has welcomed the proposal?
  Mr. Prescott: Yes, an awful lot of bodies that represent consumers and actual people in various areas have said that the measure is welcome. They have pointed out that, taking into account the full costs involved in compulsory competitive tendering—social costs, wages and value—it was worse for the taxpayer, who ended up paying a great deal more. The National Consumer Council, which is a

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  reputable body, made that very point. It is a body that we could claim to have on our side in welcoming best value as it has been introduced into local authorities.
  Mr. Barry Gardiner: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for allowing me to intervene so quickly after two other interventions. I welcome the Government's commitment to the introduction of leasehold reform and commonhold. Is he aware that perhaps one area of agreement with the Leader of the Opposition did not become apparent in the Chamber yesterday? Leasehold reform will be particularly welcome in the borough of Kensington and Chelsea, where there are about 27,000 leaseholders. The right hon. Gentleman might have welcomed the Government's commitment to reform because the electorate there will be so grateful for it that they may keep him in his job.
  Mr. Prescott: I shall avoid commenting on by-elections. Leasehold reform may or may not be an issue in that by-election, but it certainly was in Southport in 1966. It is matter of social justice. We are trying to correct matters and bring about greater social justice on leasehold.
  Mr. Nigel Waterson: When?
  Mr. Prescott: It is all very well for the hon. Gentleman to say that, but for 18 years the Conservative Government did nothing. Perhaps I should correct that statement: they huffed and puffed but failed to get agreement on legislation. They did not make it any better. People demand leasehold reform because the Tories did not deal with the problem. That is why we have agreed to introduce the measure. Perhaps they can explain to people in the forthcoming by-election how they have done enough and why they do not need to support the Bill. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman indicates that he will—good, we look forward to him saying that at the by-election.
  We are delivering on better local accountability, more local empowerment and better quality local services, including local transport. My Department has received almost 100 local transport plans drawn up by local authorities. They have identified the transport priorities in their areas and can bid for the £700 million that has been made available.
  This country faces a great challenge in tackling congestion and pollution. Everyone, including the Confederation of British Industry and the Institute of Directors, recognises that the economic and environmental damage that congestion and pollution cause is unacceptable. To carry on as before would be the most anti-motorist policy of all. Even the motorist organisations readily say that. The Conservatives sat back while congestion costs rose dramatically. The number of cars per mile, despite the investment of about £70 billion, rose from 70 to 100. Despite the tremendous sums poured into the road programme, they did not reduce congestion; we ended up with more.
  It became obvious, even to the previous Government in their last year of office, that we could not build our way out of congestion and that the only way forward was to improve public transport. That was clearly stated in the
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  Green Paper produced in the last few months of the previous Administration. It referred to
  "a presumption in favour of introducing legislation, in due course, to enable congestion charging".
  However, they did not guarantee that they would recycle the revenues back into local transport. Under the right hon. Member for Wokingham, they have reversed their position, as on so many things. I am a little confused.
  Mr. Oliver Heald: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that, in considering the transport plans that local authorities are putting to him, there is a case for bypasses where there are traffic bottlenecks? In considering Hertfordshire's transport plan, will he bear it in mind that Baldock in my constituency has an appalling bottleneck that must be tackled? There has been a campaign for a bypass for more than 20 years. It would make a huge difference to the economy of north Hertfordshire. Will he bear in mind the thousands of representations that I have had over the years and give us the money?
  Mr. Prescott: There was a common refrain in the House on the road programme, certainly when we were in opposition. The problem with the previous Administration's road programme was that most of it was a wish list with no timetable. They spent all their time doing what the hon. Gentleman did in making a special plea. We have reformed the road programme and taken a different approach.
  Mr. Bernard Jenkin: You cut it.
  Mr. Prescott: Yes, we cut the programme, but the money put into roads by the previous Administration did nothing to reduce congestion. We are talking about transport corridors and further investigation into those areas because we are not against a road programme.
  Roads are an essential part of transport. Most movement in this country takes place on roads, by bus or car. There will be constant competing demands from hon. Members for particular schemes in their areas. We are convinced that bypasses can play a part and, as we have already announced, we intend to increase the bypass programme. As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer pointed out in his pre-Budget speech, now that we have abolished the fuel duty escalator, the extra moneys could be hypothecated to roads and public transport. We are finding the extra resources that are needed to improve the transportation system.
  Mr. Owen Paterson: There is a proposal to build 36,000 houses in Shropshire, where 67 per cent. of people drive to work in a private car. Does the Secretary of State think that that proposal will increase or reduce congestion in Shropshire, where there is a £94 million backlog on the roads? If it increases congestion, will that be good or bad for the sites of special scientific interest in Shropshire?
  Mr. Prescott: One aim in changing the road programme was to save about 100 SSSIs, which were already being destroyed by the previous Administration's road plan. In answer to the hon. Gentleman's question about the location of houses and the problem of

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  congestion, the Tory Government's housing policies also contributed to the congestion. We are reconsidering those planning rules. We are not continuing with the massive shopping-housing estates. About 600 of the 900 built in the past 10 years were brought about by the previous Administration. We thought that that was wrong, so we are changing that. We are holding discussions on household growth in a more regional way and we shall report our conclusions to Parliament at the appropriate time.
  The hon. Gentleman makes the interesting point that what we do about housing, regional planning and transport all contributes to congestion. We have to balance those factors in making a judgment. We will have to make that judgment and we intend to make it. At the moment, we are being advised by all parties inside and outside the House on exactly how we should achieve that balance. At the appropriate time, the Government must make a decision and I will have to come to the House to explain our priorities and the balance of our judgment in these matters.
  Mr. Peter Luff: Will the Secretary of State give way?
  Mr. Prescott: I must make progress; there is a lot in the speech.
  I was saying that the right hon. Member for Wokingham had reversed his position. He came to the House and said that he wanted to deregulate roads and increase speeds, but his leader set up a transport commission to look at the matter again. I wonder what Tory policy is. The right hon. Gentleman comes to the House and says that he has changed their policies and that in opposition the Tories do things differently. He has made that clear, just as he did on the "Today" programme. While he tells us that, the Leader of the Opposition and his colleagues are setting up a transport commission to find other solutions. That fits: the right hon. Gentleman tells us what the Tories do in opposition while his hon. Friend the Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin), the transport spokesman, works out how to deal with those problems in Government. No doubt the hon. Gentleman is about to reverse the policy.
  I noticed that the Leader of the Opposition made the interesting caveat that they do not necessarily have to accept the conclusions. Yet again, we do not know what the Tory policy is. Clearly, the Opposition are confused. Once they have decided their policy on congestion charging, we should like to hear it.
  Mr. John Redwood: Will the Secretary of State give way?
  Mr. Prescott: I will give way in a second.
  In our last debate on the subject, I could not make up my mind whether the right hon. Gentleman was for or against congestion charging. If I remember rightly, he said that he was against unfair congestion charging. We never worked out what was fair or unfair congestion charging. Has he worked it out yet? Has he talked to the shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer about it? What is his policy on congestion charging?
  Mr. Redwood: I have stated our policies clearly. We shall oppose congestion charging in the Bill that the
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  Government introduce. Can the Secretary of State clear up an important confusion that is worrying Londoners and the nation? Does he think that the hon. Member for Brent, East (Mr. Livingstone) should be allowed to run as a potential candidate for London mayor, or does he agree with the Prime Minister that the hon. Gentleman would remind people of the extremism and everything else that made the Labour party despised in the 1980s? Which side is the Secretary of State on in this interesting dispute?
  Mr. Prescott: That is an absolutely irrelevant question.
  I repeat my question to the right hon. Gentleman. He has said that he is totally against congestion charging, although his document previously said that he was against unfair charging. Does that mean that he now opposes all charges, fair or unfair? Does it mean that the Opposition do not believe what they believed in government—that congestion charging may have a role to play in dealing with congestion problems?
  Mr. Redwood: I have already answered that question: I shall oppose, and my right hon. and hon. Friends will support me in opposing, this Government's measures and the congestion charging that they propose to bring in, because the motorist is already unfairly burdened by this miserable Government. Now, will the right hon. Gentleman give us a straight answer—is the hon. Member for Brent, East a suitable person to run for mayor? It is high time that London and the nation were told.
  Mr. Prescott: On congestion charging, the House will have noted that many people agree that, with the best will in the world, although we are giving local authorities powers that they may use if they wish, it will be a number of years before they can be implemented. We are making it absolutely clear that we need to improve the public transport system by finding new resources and investing in trains and buses, to ensure that the motorist has a choice. That is the priority in the next few years. That is the Government's intention. Already, there are signs that, where we have used such methods, people are using their cars less and using public transport more.
  I shall give the right hon. Member a short answer to his Livingstone point. There is no doubt that any candidate—including myself, euro candidates or candidates for whatever it might be—must agree to sign up to our manifesto. That is a simple principle, and it applies. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, my hon. Friend the Member for Brent, East (Mr. Livingstone) has already been interviewed by the party selection committee, so we must wait to see what happens because things have switched around a bit.
  Incidentally, the Conservative candidate has certainly switched about a bit in the things that he does and the policies that he says he supports. He has sharply changed his stance on the underground. He used to say that he wanted it to be kept in its public form—as at present—with bond financing. Now, because the right hon. Member for Wokingham has stated that he believes in a privatised underground, the candidate has made a complete reversal and is saying that he believes in privatisation. In the Labour party, we decide a policy and candidates have an obligation to implement it. They must sign up to the manifesto.
  Mr. Redwood: I hope that the right hon. Gentleman has now had a chance to study our great proposal for the

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  Londoners' tube, which was endorsed by the final two candidates in our very open and democratic selection process for the job of the Conservative candidate for mayor. That, surely, is the way to do it—an open process, which everyone can attend and the media can see what is going on, decided by a democratic vote.
  Will the right hon. Gentleman give the House two guarantees? First, will he guarantee that every member of the Labour party in London will get a vote on the Labour mayoral candidate? Secondly, will he back the Prime Minister in saying that the hon. Member for Brent, East reminds us of the extremism of the 80s—yes or no? Does the hon. Member for Brent, East remind us of the 80s? [Interruption.]
  Madam Speaker: Order. The House has had a very happy knockabout, but I do not recall personalities being in the Queen's speech. Perhaps we can get on and deal with the subject before us
  Mr. Prescott: It is the Government's preference to deal with the substance of policy.
  Mr. Michael Heseltine: On reflection, the Deputy Prime Minister may feel that he was a little unfair to my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) in saying that the question that was asked about the hon. Member for Brent, East (Mr. Livingstone) was irrelevant because he had, in his earlier speech, mentioned the fact that we got rid of the Greater London Council in the early 80s. I was the Secretary of State who—on reflection, I believe wisely—recommended to the Cabinet that we get rid of the GLC. One reason we did so was that the hon. Member for Brent, East was then the leader of the GLC, and he represented an uncontrollable left-wing influence that was damaging to London.
  Can the Deputy Prime Minister explain one simple point? What is the difference between what I did, which was to get rid of the GLC and its leader—now the hon. Member for Brent, East—and what this Labour Government are trying to do, which is to stop the hon. Member for Brent, East becoming London mayor? Is not the only real difference that I succeeded but they will fail?
  Madam Speaker: Order. I ask the Deputy Prime Minister to deal with the subject before us. As I said earlier, we have had a nice knockabout, but there is a serious debate before us.
  Mr. Prescott: Thank you, Madam Speaker, but the abolition of the GLC is an important issue because we are restoring London local government. The right hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine) said that he abolished the GLC because of the personality of its leader, without regard to the wishes of Londoners for an authority. It would have been a lot better to consult the people of London on whether they wanted to get rid of their local government.
  Another important issue is particularly relevant to this debate. When the Tory Government took over from the GLC, they failed to find the finance for London Underground. They nationalised it when they took over the GLC and took responsibility for investment. That is why we now have a major problem of £7 billion of
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  disinvestment in the underground system. That was not a clever move and it was certainly to the disadvantage of London.
  One feature of our Bill will be hypothecation. What is the position of the Conservatives on that? They might say that they are not in favour of congestion charging—we shall wait to see how that argument develops—but are they totally against hypothecation, under which any money raised goes directly to improving public transport? We think that that is the right policy. It is a radical departure and a fundamental change in transport financing. We are looking at congestion charging and, as my right hon. Friend the Chancellor announced recently, any money raised by increases in fuel duty above the rate of inflation will go towards improving public transport. That is a welcome new form of finance and it is very different from the Tories approach to transport when they were in government.
  Mr. Jenkin: You are spending less.
  Mr. Prescott: Yes, spending less; it is the same thing. The Tories are obsessed with a market-led solution. They presided over the disintegration of our national bus network and years of underfunding. In contrast, this Government have found more money for the public transport system. That is why we are beginning to see, for the first time, a reversal of the decline in the number of people using buses. We are beginning to get the necessary resources. At the bus summit last week, the industry committed itself to £380 million of investment—equivalent to 8,500 new buses—because, as the industry would tell the Conservatives if they discussed the matter with it, we have given a vote of confidence in the public transport system.
  We envisage the industry playing a central role. Evidence of investment and the integration of transport at local level are becoming apparent. All that is encouraged by local authorities working with bus companies in the quality partnerships that came about under the previous Administration. Where that approach is failing, our Bill will provide powers for statutory quality contracts, better road architecture, more information for passengers and better buses, which will improve the bus service.
  Mrs. Anne Campbell: Does my right hon. Friend agree that one way to improve the quality of bus services—particularly in my constituency, where Stagecoach services have been branded a disgrace by the traffic commissioner—is through co-operative competition, which will be promoted by compulsory cross-ticketing? Bus companies should not be able to freeze out a competitor by refusing to cross-ticket and refusing to compete.
  Mr. Prescott: Those are important issues. To get the best out of the bus system, we have to have cross-ticketing and information on through travel. The industry has been pressing us for that. Some companies feel that statutory quality contracts may be one way to achieve improvements, in partnership with local authorities.
  The Bill will establish the Strategic Rail Authority. There is unanimous support for that. I read the evidence given by the hon. Member for North Essex to the Transport Sub-Committee. Many questions were raised.

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  I do not think that he said that he was fundamentally against the idea; he seemed to believe that it was a useful idea, but did not want it to be used in the way in which I might use it. We have to reassure hon. Members about such matters. I have told the House several times that neither the authority nor I want to renationalise the railways, as the hon. Gentleman knows. I think that the right hon. Member for Wokingham quoted the chairman of the shadow authority on that.
  The Select Committee and my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody) gave us a great deal of advice on the Strategic Rail Authority. As a shadow authority, it has already begun to renegotiate the franchises to ensure that in future they guarantee greater investment and new trains and services.
  As the Queen's Speech made clear, following the recent tragedy at Paddington the Government will ensure that rail safety is a top priority. I am sure that that is the wish of the whole House. Rail is the safest form of land transport, being 15 times safer than travelling by car, but we are determined to make it safer and to re-establish public confidence. After the Ladbroke Grove tragedy, I set in motion urgent action to achieve a more open, responsive and rigorous safety culture throughout the rail industry. As part of that, I have asked for monthly reports on signals passed at danger, which I shall place in the Libraries of both Houses; the first will be made available this afternoon.
  That report gives statistics on SPADs for the past 10 years and splits the figures by month. Annual figures show that the total fell gradually from 1993–94 until an 8 per cent. increase occurred in 1998–99. Monthly figures demonstrate the cyclical nature of the problem, with SPADs tending to peak in October and November when damp conditions can lead to poor braking performance. This October, there were five serious incidents, comprising 7 per cent. of the monthly total. However, this October's total was significantly lower than those of the preceding 10 years. Nevertheless, we cannot be complacent. As Ladbroke Grove demonstrated all too clearly, a single SPAD can result in catastrophe.
  In addition to the industry investigating every single SPAD, the Health and Safety Executive will thoroughly investigate more serious SPADs, for example, when a train breaches the safety rules and there is an overlap at signals. That is why at last month's rail summit I sought from the industry a commitment to reduce the number of such SPADs, and why, in its report to be submitted to me on 30 November, I shall expect nothing less than a detailed programme of action, on which I shall report back to the House. I have also asked Sir David Davies to undertake a review of the train protection system. All those important steps will improve safety.
  Another recommendation of the Transport Sub-Committee was a proposed Bill to deliver safety improvements in aviation by separating the operation of National Air Traffic Services from safety regulation. The Government will never compromise on safety and the measure will enhance one of the most robust systems of aviation safety regulation in the world. Our preferred option on how to achieve the partnership we want is to secure safety regulation strictly in public hands and to
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  split the shares as follows: 49 per cent. publicly held, 5 per cent. held by workers, and 46 per cent. in private hands.
  We are now openly discussing those deals and also alternative proposals advanced by the trade unions. We shall have a Government-appointed director on the board, a golden share and a veto built into the licence to protect safety in the public interest. Those are matters of concern, but let no one doubt our commitment to safety or try to stir up safety concerns for ideological or industrial ends.
  Our proposals are intended to achieve more than safety. There has been criticism of delays in the public sector programme of investment in NATS. Our proposals will ensure that the system receives the investment it needs—more than £1 billion over the next 10 years—through a partnership with the private sector that frees public funds for other priorities and increases opportunities for NATS in the global economy. Our proposals will allow us to draw on the project management skills of the private sector and to upgrade our systems, while maintaining the two-centre approach at Swanwick and Prestwick, and ensuring public accountability and protection of the public interest. The Bill will deliver a modern integrated transport system that uses innovative financing techniques to deliver better quality services.
  Legislation on the countryside and water form an important part of the Queen's Speech. Labour has been the champion of the countryside—one need only look at the history books to see that. Labour Governments developed the planning system and created the green belt; and, since 1997, this Government have added 30,000 hectares to it. A previous Labour Government created national parks, and this Government will establish two more—the south downs and the new forest.
  Mr. Graham Brady: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Prescott: Not at the moment.
  The House has often expressed grave concern about the deterioration of the quality of life in our countryside. The 1997 Rural Development Commission report on conditions in the countryside revealed that, after 18 years of Tory Government, 43 per cent. of villages had no post office, almost half had no school and three quarters had no bus services. Those were the consequences of 18 years of Tory Government for rural areas, according to that report. The Government have taken immediate action to deal with all those issues: we have tackled the quality of housing, provided for 1,800 rural buses and improved the local environment.
  The Government have also taken a global lead on the environment by brokering for the first time, at Kyoto, a legally binding agreement to tackle climate change. We used our presidency of the European Union to develop policies to achieve that.
  Mr. Oliver Letwin rose—
  Mr. Prescott: I am sorry, but the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale, West (Mr. Brady) wanted to intervene earlier, so I must give way to him.
  Mr. Brady: The right hon. Gentleman referred to expansion of the green belt. Does he accept that there is

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  no value in expanding the green belt if the territory that it protects is allowed to be constantly eroded? I know that that is so because I represent a constituency on the edge of Manchester. Such expansion does not preserve city centres or the quality of life in the surrounding suburbs.
  Mr. Prescott: We created the concept of the green belt and we are proud of that. The issues that the hon. Gentleman mentioned will be tackled when we consider housing development and regional planning. We shall have to present some judgments on those matters—especially on brownfield sites—to the House. We have set a target for brownfield sites. The previous Administration talked about a 50 per cent. target for building on brownfield sites, yet their record was less than 45 per cent. Their target is now two thirds. We shall make changes and achieve the targets that we set. Our record contrasts vividly with that of the Opposition when they were in government.
  We have integrated social and economic policy and conservation is a key theme in the Bill on the countryside, which gives added protection to sites of special scientific interest and to wildlife. When we came to power, more than a quarter of SSSIs had been seriously damaged by the previous Government's policies. In stark contrast, the Government have saved more than 100 SSSIs through our new approach to the road programme. The previous Administration would have destroyed more than 100 SSSIs through their road programme, yet now Opposition Members constantly ask, "What are the Government going to do about SSSIs?" We are unpicking the damage that their policies, especially their road programme, did to SSSIs. The advances help to improve our performance in many of the quality of life indicators that we have published, including those for birds and wetlands.
  The new Bill will fulfil the aspirations of millions of people who want to enjoy the freedom of walking across some of our finest and wildest countryside. I remember the wonder that I felt as a boy on my first visit to the lake district. Its beauty has remained with me and fires my passion to preserve and enhance it for all to enjoy. I am proud that the Bill will grant a new right of access to 4 million acres of mountain, moor, heath and down to the many, not the few. That right will not be unfettered. We expect people to act responsibly when exercising it, just as landowners' rights must be balanced by their responsibility to manage their land effectively and sustainably.
  The measures that I have outlined constitute the essential features of the Government's campaign for a better and fairer Britain and a better quality of life for all. We want a Britain that puts behind it the Tory years of centralisation, boom and bust and neglected public services. Our programme highlights the contrast between a Tory party that trampled on local government and a Labour party that liberates it; between a Tory party that neglected housing and a Labour party that protects leaseholding and expands housing expenditure; between a Tory party that presided over a fragmented public transport system and a Labour party that is improving it; between a Tory party that is the friend of bigotry and intolerance and a Labour party that believes that everyone has equal worth; and between a Tory party that believes that the open countryside should be the preserve of the rich and the few and a Labour party that makes access to the countryside a reality.
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  The Government are committed to enterprise, fairness and a better quality of life. Our legislative programme exemplifies the contrast between Labour and Tory Administrations, and I heartily recommend it to the House.
  12.39 pm
  Mr. John Redwood: I have declared my interests in the register, but I am not speaking on their behalf.
  We all enjoyed the Deputy Prime Minister's contribution and it was good of him to arrive for the debate in the nick of time. We thought that he had fallen foul of his own congested transport system. He managed to prove us wrong on this occasion, although I am sure there will be others. Indeed, at a conference at which I was speaking only this week, the Labour representative was unable to turn up owing to the tremendous traffic congestion and transport chaos in London.
  At business questions, the Leader of the House criticised the Opposition for not wishing to talk about agriculture during today's debate. I can reassure the House that we regard agriculture as crucial in the countryside. We have chosen the countryside as one of today's themes and, in recognition of how important we think it is, our shadow Cabinet agriculture spokesman, my hon. Friend the Member for South Suffolk (Mr. Yeo), will wind up the debate. He will have a great deal to say about the enormous damage that Labour is doing to the countryside in general and the agriculture industry in particular. We feel that Labour does not understand that a good agriculture industry is crucial to the maintenance of our landscape beyond the towns and cities, and my hon. Friend will stress that in his winding-up speech.
  The Queen's Speech reveals that new Labour is guilty of deception under the Trade Descriptions Act 1968, for there is nothing new about this programme and nothing new about these Ministers. My young and active Conservative Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions team faces a—[Interruption.] Ministers should not object, as they are considerably older than the shadow DETR team. Everything is relative. My team faces tired, burnt out, worn out Ministers who already look as if they have been in office for more than a decade, and so quickly have they made mistakes and so rapidly have problems emerged that the state of the country is bad enough to imply that they have.
  The Deputy Prime Minister is wallowing in the past: he is interested in the history of 10 or 15 years ago, and reluctant to talk of the future because he knows that his party has numerous problems in deciding what candidates it should field in important elections and what policies it should put before the House. The only remedies peddled by the Government to cure the nation's disorders are more laws and more taxes. Most other people in the country have already worked out that our problem is too much tax and too many laws, not a shortage of either. There is no vision in the Queen's Speech to renew great cities, to improve our schools, to sort out our hospitals or to solve the transport crisis that the Government are creating. All we get are old Labour ideas from old Labour figures dressed up from time to time in modernisers' clothes.
  Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody: I am very interested in the right hon. Gentleman's

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  remarks about age. Are we to take it that Conservative Front Benchers are now so ageist that they talk not about the quality of their spokesmen but only about their ages?
  Mr. Redwood: I talked about the quality of the members of our team and said that they are energetic and have many good ideas. I was contrasting an Opposition brimming with ideas to improve this country, with a tired old Government who do not know what they are doing and have lost their way. The Labour Government are gluttons for punishment. I am glad that the hon. Lady smiles at that; she knows that there is some truth in it.
  In the midst of the fiasco of trying to choose a candidate for mayor of London, Labour has decided to re-enact the same scenes all over the country—it wants a Bill to bamboozle many more towns and cities into having executive mayors. Let me make a personal comment to the Secretary of State: he is ill-advised to embark on such a course and I ask him to pause and consider the pattern that is emerging. First, a Secretary of State is briefed against for not doing his job well. Then newspaper reports, from sources close to No. 10, say that he is under threat of losing his job. Then comes the dreaded phone call saying, "Alun, we want you to go to Wales and stay there. Frank, you would make a wonderful mayor—just give up the health job." The present Secretary of State has already experienced the first two parts of that worrying pattern: saturation briefing against his competence and question marks over his future.
  If the Secretary of State passes such legislation, will he get a call telling him that Labour is desperate for a candidate it can trust to be mayor of Leeds or Liverpool? How many mayors does he think there will be under the proposal? Are there enough Cabinet members in disfavour to fill all those new slots? Can we be told who will be facing a merry Christmas in the Cabinet? We have a right to know. Is this Labour's new deal for Cabinet members—resign and be offered a job as a mayor?
  The Opposition think that Labour should stop bashing local government. We believe that if a council wishes to keep a committee structure, in which all councillors can be involved on an even footing, it should be allowed to do so. [Interruption.] The Government do not like this at all, because they know that there is much that is good in the present system of local government, which they intend to sweep aside. The Secretary of State could not even answer the sensible intervention from my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (Mr. Gray), who asked whether he would allow councils to keep the present system. The right hon. Gentleman must make up his mind, and we urge him to make up his mind in favour of their doing so.
  Mr. Gray: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way. Did he notice that, in answering the intervention to which he refers, the Deputy Prime Minister not only did not seem to know what the fourth option would be, but suggested that I should wait for the publication of the Bill? Was he not aware that it was published six months ago and has already undergone pre-legislative scrutiny?
  Mr. Prescott rose—
  Madam Speaker: Order.
  Mr. Redwood: I willingly give way to the right hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Prescott: As the right hon. Gentleman knows, the Bill was published in order to allow the House and the Select Committees to study it and make recommendations. We are now considering those recommendations and will report back on them.
  Mr. Redwood: My hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire has won game, set and match, but let us put that on one side. Anyone can make a mistake.
  The important thing is that the Secretary of State should understand the anger, in Labour as well as Conservative local government, at the prospect that existing practices would not be allowed to continue under his proposed legislation. I urge him to think again. If he does not, we shall table amendments that would enable the existing system to continue. We regard this as another of Labour's modernisations, which would drive a bulldozer through the checks and balances of our local constitution, exactly as the Government have done in our national constitution.
  Mr. Brady: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way. He may be interested to know that the borough of Trafford has embarked on a cabinet style of local government already, and that many Labour councillors are feeling excluded from the process and increasingly frustrated at their inability to do their jobs.
  Mr. Redwood: The Secretary of State has a great deal of thinking to do, to try and make the councillor' s role a decent, good role in some of the models that he is proposing, especially in his model of the elected mayor, which represents a massive downgrading of the elected council and councillors. He has never explained how that would work, and we look forward to seeing more of the details, as doubtless he rewrites the Bill as it goes through the House, and guillotines it at the end, in the same way as he had to rewrite much of the Bill dealing with the government of London, and then decided to guillotine it so that we could not debate pages and pages of substantial amendment. That is how the Government have been bulldozing our constitution, both nationally and locally.
  The Bill has been designed by people who do not believe in local democracy and whose idea of devolution is that anyone living under devolved government must accept whatever central Government want. Labour cannot accept the idea that a mayoral candidate for London might ever disagree with the elected Government. "Perish the thought," they say, "that the Welsh Assembly should wish to do something different from that which the Prime Minister seeks." It is an odd style of devolution that entails all the extra costs of more officials and more politicians but gives none of them the right to independent thought or action. For those and other reasons, we will give the local government Bill strong opposition. We are against mayors made in Downing street.
  When it comes to his transport policy, the Secretary of State is becoming a joke. We know that the Prime Minister is seriously worried that DETR is upsetting all

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  the motorists. We saw in a recent television poll that the Government are in deep mire with their record on transport. When people were asked in the poll whether the Government had a good record on transport, 79 per cent. said no, they did not, and only 16 per cent. said yes they did. The public have got this one entirely right, and the Secretary of State should be deeply worried that he has upset not just the Prime Minister but so many people trying to travel round the country.
  We know that the Government are so worried that the Chancellor has been prevailed upon to moderate his language about the fuel escalator, but he has not yet changed his actions on the petrol tax. People will not thank the Government until they are absolutely sure that it is not just the words that are changing, but that the deeds will change as well.
  Mr. Prescott: It is a Conservative tax.
  Mr. Redwood: It is not a Conservative tax. The last increases in fuel duties were introduced by a Labour Government and a Labour Chancellor, at a higher rate than any that the Conservatives introduced, from a higher level of the duty. We are against it; the Government are in favour of it, and they cannot wriggle away from the responsibility. The Deputy Prime Minister seems to think that he has not been governing the country for the past two and a half years. Perhaps he has not, but the public believe that the Government have been governing the country and they know that it was this Government's Budgets that put the price of fuel up so much: it could hardly have been done by the outgoing Conservatives, who can no longer put through a Budget.
  Mr. Prescott: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House in what year the fuel duty escalator was introduced and by which Government, and who now proposes to abolish it?
  Mr. Redwood: When a new Government come into office, they have to decide on their policies. This Government decided to put the fuel duty up in each of the Budgets that they have introduced. They not only decided to put it up, but they put it up by more than the Conservatives, and from a much higher level. The Deputy Prime Minister should remember that we opposed the Government's increases in fuel duty. We are now asking him to come clean. Will he tell us that they have finished with increases in petrol duty? Will he promise us that there will be no further increases in petrol duty for the lifetime of this Parliament and under this Government? Will he give that guarantee?
  Mr. Prescott: I think that the right hon. Gentleman has now confirmed that a Tory Government brought in the tax and that a Labour Government are now committed to abolishing it. That is precisely the position. Any increases in the duty that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer was prepared to consider over and above the inflation rate, he would hypothecate to public transport. Do the Opposition agree with that degree of hypothecation if we introduce it?
  Mr. Redwood: I think that the Deputy Prime Minister has confirmed that the Chancellor of the Exchequer reserves the right to increase fuel duties not just in line
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  with inflation, but by more than inflation. That is exactly my point. This is a dishonest Administration. They say that they are abolishing something when they have no intention whatever of abolishing it.
  Mr. Oliver Letwin: Has my right hon. Friend noticed, as some of us have, that, in the Red Book, the Chancellor has predicted a 5 per cent. increase in the total take from fuel duties next year?
  Mr. Redwood: I am grateful to my very learned hon. Friend, who has read the Red Book carefully and confirms my point. We cannot trust the Government on the fuel duty. It is very obvious that they will increase it.
  Mr. Bercow: Given that currently £17 out of every £20 spent at the petrol pump goes directly to Treasury coffers, and that, during his oration, the Deputy Prime Minister blathered on about the principle of fairness, does my right hon. Friend agree that the Deputy Prime Minister should tell us whether he believes that it is fair that 85 per cent. of the spend on petrol goes to the Treasury? If he does not, at what alternative figure does he propose to aim?
  Mr. Redwood: That is a very good question for the Deputy Prime Minister and I am sure that he will not be able to answer it. I do not know whether he wishes to try to answer it.
  Mr. Prescott: The record is clear on the matter of raising fuel duty. Under the previous Administration the tax on fuel went from 7p to 42p a litre, and the money that they raised from the motorist was increased from £4 billion to £21 billion a year, but they spent less of that on transportation systems.
  Mr. Redwood: As I thought, the Deputy Prime Minister was not going to answer the question, because he has not a clue about the answer to it. Let me make a prediction. The right hon. Gentleman thinks that he has a deal with the Treasury on hypothecation, but he will find that other parts of his budget are cut to allow for the fact that he now has his hands on a little bit of the money that he is raising by way of extra taxes.
  Mr. Paterson: The Deputy Prime Minister failed to point out that when the fuel escalator was introduced, only two countries in Europe had lower fuel prices than the United Kingdom. We now have easily the highest fuel prices, with the cost of diesel twice what it is in Spain and three times what it is in Turkey. The real humbug—
  Mr. Prescott: That is why we are abolishing it.
  Mr. Paterson: Will the Deputy Prime Minister contain himself and stop interrupting?
  Last year, Madam Speaker, you kindly granted me an Adjournment debate on the crisis in the road haulage industry. At that time, I said that the Government were abusing the duty for general taxation purposes, but the then Economic Secretary said:
  "That is not the case."—[Official Report, 11 November 1998; Vol. 319, c. 349.]

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  In last week's pre-Budget statement, however, the Chancellor said that the duty would be used for general taxation.
  Mr. Redwood: That is a very powerful point. We well know that the Deputy Prime Minister has been rolled over by the Treasury on all sorts of matters—not least his failure to get decent money for investment in the London underground and for other necessary public transport investment.
  Mr. Geraint Davies: Will the right hon. Gentleman explain how he would fill the black hole that would be created by cutting taxes on fuel and building 100 extra roads, which would represent an extra £3 billion of expenditure and lost tax in year one, not even taking into account the fact that he would not have any road toll charges? Would he cut health or education spending?
  Mr. Redwood: The Government have not been taking account of the sensible, common-sense policies being launched by the Opposition. We intend to have a good sum to spend on health and education—we have always matched what the Government have offered on those—while having a lower overall total of public spending. I shall give two examples from my own budget: we said that we would abolish the regional development agencies and privatise the tube, taking all that expenditure out of the public accounts.
  It is therefore easy to see how we can get by with lower taxes and lower overall spending while having extremely good, perhaps even higher, spending on services that really matter, such as schools and hospitals. Deliberate misinformation by the Government means that the point has not been understood, but many of my right hon. and hon. Friends with shadow ministerial briefs have also identified, as I have, areas where we would not match the Government's spending because we think that it is wasteful. This is a tax-and-waste Government; we would be a more sensible Government.
  Mr. Dale Campbell-Savours: Did I hear the right hon. Gentleman correctly when he said that he would privatise the tube? Is that the position of the Conservative candidate for mayor of London?
  Mr. Redwood: It has been our mayoral candidate's position for a very long time. I recommend to the hon. Gentleman the Londoners' tube scheme, which includes free shares for all Londoners. That scheme will be very popular and our candidate will have great fun in putting it to London voters.
  I have been deflected by interventions for rather a long time, and I must now make progress on some of other measures in the Queen's Speech. The main problem with the Secretary of State's transport Bill and policy is that they cannot possibly work. We still have no idea of what timetable the right hon. Gentleman has in mind for the Bill, let alone what transport it seeks to regulate. He recognises that people want to travel more and there is congestion, so he decides that the one thing to do is cut the capacity of the system.
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  The Government have failed to create conditions to increase rail capacity, and road capacity is cut by installing bus lanes on motorways and placing all sorts of impediments on main highways to stop or reduce the flow of traffic. Meanwhile, the Secretary of State cuts almost every bypass and road-widening out of the programme. The answer to travel congestion is more capacity. We need more capacity on public transport and we need to maximise the use of existing main roads and improving some of them.
  Now I hear some people asking for a consensus approach to transport. Well, if the Government want that, they must start responding more positively to many of our good ideas that would make the situation much better. Has the Secretary of State read our ideas in "The Common Sense Revolution" which would increase the flows on our main roads? Why will he not take such action? Has he read our proposals for a Londoners' tube, with a massive increase in investment and capacity? Why will he not take that action? Has he seen our proposals for better car parks at bus interchanges and train stations? Why will he not get on with doing that?
  The Government have only one answer to congestion—blame and tax the motorist. If the motorist is moving, tax him, and get him through the congestion charge. If the motorist is stationary, tax him, and get him through the parking charge. Now that some of the traffic jams in and out of our main cities are so bad, motorists fear that they will have to pay both the congestion and the parking charges while in the traffic jam.
  Mr. Christopher Leslie: Given the right hon. Gentleman's interest in investment and private enterprise in London Underground and his position as chairman of Mabey Securities Ltd., will he tell us whether he is getting money into Mabey Securities via its sub-company, Mabey Construction, which is now outside the Palace of Westminster, building half of the Jubilee line?
  Mr. Redwood: I made it very clear at the beginning of the debate that I am not speaking on behalf of any business interest, and I would not waste the time of the House putting forward a business case. That is something that I do in my private time outside the House, and I am in no way inclined to use the opportunity of this debate to further any business interest that I may have, so I shall return to the subject of the debate.
  We all know that taxing the motorist off the road does not work. Labour has tried it for two and a half years, and traffic has grown. It has grown because people need to move around, and as more people get jobs, so more people have to travel to work. As people want more leisure, they need to travel to cinemas, theatres, clubs and pubs, and many of those journeys cannot be undertaken by bus or train, so people go by car and pay the extra tax.
  The congestion problem on our railways and roads will not be solved by legislation, but it could be eased by investment. Traffic jams will be made worse by building too many homes in the countryside. Standstill Britain needs steadfast Government to tackle the problems. Tax and spin are not man enough for the job. We need common sense and better travel facilities.

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  Today, an embarrassed Secretary of State will want to take attention away from his heroic failure in transport by talking of his green ambitions.
  Mr. Peter Bradley: If there is to be no new housing in the countryside, where will country people live?
  Mr. Redwood: Our policy is not to say no new homes in the countryside. I shall come to the point later, so if the hon. Gentleman is patient he will benefit from listening yet again to our popular and good policy on where new development should take place.
  Mr. Alan W. Williams: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Redwood: If I may answer this point, I shall then come to another point from the hon. Gentleman.
  The Secretary of State will never be trusted as green or with our countryside unless he lifts the threat of the bulldozer from so many of our green fields. He has shocked the nation by his refusal to throw out the Crow report which proposes 1.1 million new homes in the south east, half of them on new greenfield sites. It is no good his saying that he has to treasure and study the report. The report is so off the wall that he should just say so and announce a better policy.
  We say that in some areas where there has been a lot of pressure from development and where unemployment is low, local people and councils should have the right to regulate the amount of new house building. We are not saying that there will be no new development on greenfield sites; we are saying that there should be much less than the Secretary of State proposes, and we are identifying a local democratic way in which communities can have their say and can have an influence.
  Many Labour Members think that that is a good idea and wish that their Government would propose it. I pay tribute—uncustomarily, one may think—to those Labour Members who have spoken out about their areas in the south-east where they would like building on greenfield sites. I can reassure them that, come the common-sense revolution, we shall be happy to accommodate their views. We are delighted that they wish to make a contribution. Any area that wants housing on green fields, whether a country area or not, will be welcome to have it under our plans.
  Mr. Peter Bradley rose—
  Mr. Redwood: I am sure that it is a mistake to do so, but I give way again.
  Mr. Peter Bradley: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the early 1990s, when I believe the Conservative party was still in Government, the Rural Development Commission estimated a need for 80,000 social housing units for rural communities, but only 17,700 were built? Can he explain how the common-sense revolution has introduced new policies, that were not in operation when the right hon. Gentleman was a member of the Cabinet, which will secure for the next generation of rural dwellers the affordable housing that they desperately need and which was denied them for 18 years under his Government?
  Mr. Redwood: As I have made it clear, if a local community wishes to build homes of the type that the
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  hon. Gentleman proposes, they will be free to do so under our policy of trusting local councils and local communities rather more. Obviously, decisions will also be dependent on Government funding if they wish to have an element of taxpayer subsidy. That will be decided year by year in the usual budgetary way.
  We are not against the provision of new homes. Many new homes will be needed, and we would like to see many more of them built in the towns and cities. For example, there is a great opportunity in the east Thames corridor which requires some strategic leadership and vision of the kind that we gave in the 1980s by starting off at the western end with the docklands development. I trust that the Secretary of State will take that as sensible advice and might even come round to that view as he studies the unfortunate Crow report.
  The Secretary of State must understand that many of the people who will be seeking new homes in the next decade—there will be many such people—would like to buy modern flats and houses in towns and cities, and it is up to the Government to do a rather better job of freeing up the brownfield sites in the public sector, cleaning them up, making them available and expediting the planning permission. [Interruption.] Now we come to the history lesson. I shall not take any history lessons from the Secretary of State on urban renewal. He has only to go a few miles from Westminster to see one of the greatest urban renewal successes that the world has ever seen in the form of the massive docklands redevelopment. I am asking him to take that model, or something like it, and carry it further east and take it to the heartlands of the northern and midlands cities.
  Recent studies show that unemployment is rising in the Labour heartlands in the north and the midlands. We see that the great divide is becoming worse. The Government are presiding over a disunited Britain. They are concentrating too much development in the south and are not offering enough investment and development in the north. They need to tackle that as a matter of great urgency.
  Why cannot the Secretary of State make up his mind on the many good proposals in the Rogers report on urban renewal, and come to the House to make a full statement and be cross-examined on them? Why does he not launch a blitz on brownfield sites to bring them back into use? He cannot be serious about people using public transport more if he presses on with plans to locate over 1 million people on greenfield sites in the south-east without proper access to trains and buses. Let us not pretend: those people will not have proper access to trains and buses if that kind of suburban development is encouraged. Greenfield development clearly favours using the car and the already-congested motorways.
  The Secretary of State's biggest embarrassment must be the Government's decision to sell a chunk of National Air Traffic Services. Before the election, the now Chief Secretary told everyone that our air was not for sale. Many Labour candidates and Back Benchers believed him, as did many members of NATS staff. Unfortunately, it turned out to be another great Labour lie. The policy will be deeply unpopular, and I strongly object to the way in which the Secretary of State proposes to go about it.
  Instead of selling 100 per cent. to a wide range of British shareholders—giving existing managers and employees a real stake and a real say in their business—

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  the Secretary of State intends to sell around half, surrendering control to a single trade buyer, which could be a foreign company. He will be willing to sell control of our airways at less than half a fair price—perhaps to a foreign interest. The taxpayer will be robbed, and the national interest may not be looked after properly. NATS needs massive new investment. It does not need a foreign owner buying it on the cheap to make a quick buck. Will the Secretary of State confirm today that these contentious matters will be covered by primary legislation? Will he promise not to guillotine or stifle debate on this most sensitive subject?
  I appreciate that many Labour Members who oppose this part of the Bill want a different future for NATS from the one that the Opposition would like. I would never embarrass them by suggesting that we agree on what we would like to see in place of the present system. We do not agree on that, but we have a strong common interest in voting down this miserable proposal from the Government. Many decent Labour Members and the Opposition agree that the proposal is wrong for the staff of NATS, wrong for the taxpayer and wrong for Britain. I urge the Government to think again before they get into a mess on the Floor of the House with the Bill.
  The Queen's Speech is full of measures which will make life worse. It is a meddlesome, bureaucratic and wrong-headed programme. It is the work of modernisers who want to destroy any institution that they have inherited without having something better to put in its place. The Government are failing to deliver on transport, and they have created standstill Britain.
  The Government are now on a collision course with their own supporters over public-private partnerships for the tube and in the air. The Government can look forward to a series of rows over future mayors as they seek to destroy councils. The battle between the hon. Member for Brent, East (Mr. Livingstone) and the right hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson) is billed as the battle for Labour's soul—so will the battle over NATS be. We will discover that the Government have no soul. They have only a set of empty soundbites, as they fail to deliver the promises and the hopes that swept them to power.
  1.8 pm
  Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody: The country has waited a long time for a transport Bill that will begin to address what has been, in effect, 20 years of total destruction of an integrated system. In my county, the bright new white rural rider buses are providing desperately needed services for many villages which had been deprived of almost any kind of efficient bus service.
  The Government have demonstrated that they are prepared to tackle the important aspects of planning—which will integrate and improve the lives of people in rural and urban areas—and to think in the long term about the needs of a modern society and of the United Kingdom in the next millennium.
  Above all, I believe that the decision to include legislation on the railways as part of the new transport Bill will at long last give sufficient muscle to the Deputy Prime Minister to allow him to do what he has long wanted to do, but has been unable to do because he has not had the primary legislation at his command.
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  The Transport Sub-Committee was honoured to be asked to consider the railways legislation and to make recommendations on aspects that we thought could be improved. Most of us received the bulk of the Bill with acclamation. We took evidence from anyone who wanted to draw attention to particular aspects. Opposition members of the Committee made it clear that they did not regard the process as a means of negating their right to oppose the Bill in its entirety, but they were prepared to take part in the detailed examination of the evidence that was presented to us.
  The Strategic Rail Authority is the kind of development that a fragmented and destroyed railway system desperately needs. At the time of privatisation, the previous Government clearly did not consider that the railways would be used by more passengers in the future; they did not care about them. They decided that the system, which was clapped out and had had no real investment for 20 years, should be removed from the Treasury as quickly as possible, irrespective of the chaos that would follow.
  Some years after privatisation, the railway system is still in the most appalling mess. Some companies are facing up efficiently to the need for new rolling stock and integrated services, but others are failing disastrously. There are problems not only with time-keeping but with integration between one service and another. Recently, a Labour Member of Parliament was told in my hearing on the west coast main line that the train to Wales would not be held for her because it was run by a different company and the fact that our train would be late meant that the connection would be disregarded.
  We still have a long way to go, but the Sub-Committee believed that we should consider certain matters with great care. We want the Strategic Rail Authority to state plainly its aims and objectives for a new rail system and to consider how it can draw certain lines of demarcation. We want the regulator's powers and its relationship with the authority to be set out clearly, and we want safety to be addressed with some urgency.
  We considered that many aspects of the legislation are extremely hopeful and should be commended. The SRA will be supported by the general public, who are conscious of the need for the forward planning that has been sadly missing from a system that has been torn apart at the roots. They want better timetable planning and better information, but above all they want to feel that the passengers' interests are at the top of the league of needs.
  We hope that the membership of the SRA will include passenger representatives. We think that the existing passenger organisations need greater support; they certainly need proper funding and more immediate powers. Above all, the SRA must represent at the top level the interests of those who use the services. It is not good enough simply to say that we are thinking of changing many aspects of our railway companies without considering the impact on the passenger. Whether passengers are commuting to work or using the services for holidays or business, it frequently seems that their interests are the last thing on the companies' minds.
  The acquisition of new rolling stock and the provision of high-quality services must be an urgent matter for the companies. We rely on my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to ensure that when the franchises are being renegotiated the Strategic Rail Authority considers not

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  only the companies' safety record but their investment record and the quality of the service that they are providing now. Frankly, if, after this many years of operation, a company cannot guarantee a good quality of service for its existing passengers, promises about what it will do in the future may ring astonishingly hollow. That is still the case for far too many companies and organisations throughout the rail industry.
  Not only do we welcome this long-overdue Bill, but we think that the Strategic Rail Authority will transform much of the planning for railways in the new century. However, safety will inevitably concern everyone using every form of public transport. The references to safety in the Bill were fairly limited because of existing legislation, but the general public will want extra reassurance. Those of us who know about transport know that people who travel by car face safety problems every day of their lives—much more frequently than those who travel by rail or air. Nevertheless, a bad incident, such as the rail crash at Ladbroke Grove, not only makes people deeply concerned, but makes them feel at risk. No matter what reassurances are given by individual companies, people will want to know that legislation is in place to provide that safety measures are the most important aspect in the rail companies' day-to-day operations.
  Mr. Gray: The Bill considered by the Environment, Transport and Regional Affairs Committee, on which I serve, is entirely different to that proposed in the Queen's Speech. The new Bill proposes the privatisation of National Air Traffic Services. Does the hon. Lady think that that privatisation will increase air safety, or decrease it?
  Mrs. Dunwoody: I shall come to National Air Traffic Services in a moment, but I should first like to speak briefly about the Railways Bill and the work done by the Select Committee.
  My Committee was asked to look, in a pre-legislative way, at an existing Bill. Much time was spent on getting the evidence into a shape in which it could be presented to the House of Commons in quite a short time. I should like to record my appreciation of the work of all members of the Committee, who sat through many hours of evidence. I also wish to thank the Clerks and the support staff—they did a fantastic job of getting the report ready before the end of the previous Session, so that we could consider the reintroduced Bill in this Session. I must say that although this is a useful way of considering legislation, it requires a great deal of work and puts considerable pressure on Members of Parliament and on the support services which Select Committees have at their beck and call. I hope that if this is to become an accepted method of consideration, the House of Commons will think seriously about whether it is prepared to give the Select Committees enough support.
  We will expect the SRA not only to set out its aims and objects in very specific terms, but to include new members and passenger representatives. We will expect the Deputy Prime Minister to set out quite precisely the role of the franchising director and the head of the SRA. It would be unfortunate if there were any confusion about the various responsibilities which could have an effect on the railways.
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  It is also vital that the SRA publish an annual report, which the House of Commons has the right to examine—in common with passenger organisations—and debate. We ought to know what the authority is doing and how efficiently it is being done.
  I would have liked more discussion of pensions. When franchises come up again, it will be essential that those who work in the railway industry—existing pensioners and those who expect pensions—should be certain that franchise companies will not regard pension funds as a nice golden pot available for exploitation. It would be quite wrong if pensions funds to which people have contributed over many years became a bargaining chip among the economics of differing franchise companies. I am sure that the Deputy Prime Minister is aware of how sensitive that matter is, and that he will make sure that there can be no doubt about where ownership of the funds lies. There have been problems in the bus industry in the past, and we are sensitive about this matter.
  Let me turn to aspects of the Bill that seem fairly controversial. I do not drive. I am driven more often than not, mainly because I have the nasty habit of composing my best speeches after I have left whichever meeting I have just attended, and that is not the ideal frame of mind in which to drive a car. However, I know how deeply wedded people—particularly males—are to their motor cars. I am often astonished that more babies are not born with wheels rather than feet.
  Motorists seem frequently to approve wholly of proper transport planning as long as it does not deprive them of their own cars. Unless the Government begin to tackle congestion in our towns and cities, gridlock will soon result. It will not matter how many cars anyone owns as all of them will be sitting in a traffic jam.
  Before the general election, my Committee studied countries that have understood the relationship between congestion charging—and motorway tolling, although that is not under discussion at present—and the provision of proper transport services. Norway has tied together charging with the provision of high quality services. People appreciate and respond to that. I do not pretend that motorists in Norway are deeply enamoured of having to pay, whether by smart card or any other means, but hypothecation has enabled them to see the direct link between what they pay and the standard of provision in particular cities.
  Unless the Government take charge of congestion in our cities, we shall not be able to move. All the emotive rubbish about how we are trying to deprive people of their little tin boxes may be of use in party political broadcasts, but it runs counter to the basic system of transport planning for the new century.
  I shall finish on safety. My Committee recommended the creation of an independent safety authority, not just for railways but for aviation and maritime affairs. We did so because the general public are concerned that when, for whatever reason it may be, an industry hands over some responsibility to private companies, there will be a clash between the interests of directors who are responsible for raising money and profits and the interests of passengers. That fundamental worry is the same for transport by air, rail or sea.
  It is essential, therefore, that the Government respond to the clash of interests that the Committee perceived in the Civil Aviation Authority. Putting the safety unit's

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  responsibilities at arm's length would reinforce people's comfort, and the same would be true of the railway industry. The Deputy Prime Minister has said that he is minded to remove the responsibility from Railtrack, and I want to see fairly urgent action on that. I want Railtrack to be told that it will no longer have the strategic unit within its organisation, because there will be a clash of interests, and from the passengers' point of view it is vital that we are seen to be dealing with that as urgently as possible.
  One approach would be to fund an independent unit to cover the inspectorates of all those industries. It would be seen to be independent and would report directly to the Deputy Prime Minister, so it would have a connection with Government that would enable it to set out clearly the need for particular responses both to accidents and to future planning.
  People using passenger services, whatever form of transport that involves, want to be convinced that the requirement for their safety is laid down so precisely that the companies have to respond to it and will not be able to say—as, frighteningly, some said even after the latest rail accident—that there might be a point at which they would not tolerate an independent person telling them what safety standards to adopt and what kinds of investment and responses they should make.
  I find it extraordinary that in Railtrack, a massive company with direct responsibility for safety, the only person who resigned was the person in charge of public relations. That seems to me to set an interesting standard for responses to such problems. I would have liked the directors of Railtrack to think seriously about whether they should resign, because of their own responsibility and the way in which the public regarded their performance.
  As for National Air Traffic Services, I have no doubt that the Government are wholly committed to maintaining safety, but my Committee recommended a number of ways in which non-profit organisations could not only raise the money needed for new equipment, but perform at the same high level of safety as was achieved before, and as we would expect for the future.
  I hope that during the passage of the Bill the Deputy Prime Minister will be able to consider carefully what we have suggested. Non-profit organisations seem to me to be the answer. It is not sensible to hand over air traffic control to a private company whatever its nationality—although I find it difficult to worry too seriously about Her Majesty's loyal Opposition's views on foreign ownership. I am afraid that in my constituency both Rolls-Royce and what used to be British Rail Engineering are now German owned, and several other major companies are foreign owned. When I said at the time that I did not think that that was in the national interest, I was informed that my views were narrowly based, nationalist and old fashioned. Indeed, I suppose that the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood), who speaks for the Opposition, would say that I was old as well, which would automatically disbar me from holding a sensible view.
  The Bill gives us the opportunity for the first time to deal with a transport system which had become disintegrated, disorganised and unresponsive to the needs
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  of ordinary members of the public. I am sure that the Government are certain that it will carry us forward into a new, planned and developing economy.
  My Committee and I believe that this is the first serious attempt for perhaps 20 years to begin to plan the investment in, and the development of, our railway industry and the other related activities that we want to expand, such as rail freight and the efficient use of light railways. I am convinced that that attempt is positive and useful, and I congratulate the Deputy Prime Minister. We now have a serious Transport Minister in post—something that we have lacked for so long that it is difficult to believe that at last we have one.
  1.30 pm
  Mr. Michael Heseltine: I listened with some scepticism to the Deputy Prime Minister's rather overblown assertions about the benefits of the constitutional reforms that the Government intend to extend to local government. I should have thought that a certain modesty might have attended upon his judgment of the consequences of their constitutional reforms of the past two years. I very much doubt that when the Government introduced an Assembly in Scotland they anticipated that Labour would not control it. The inevitable consequence of the present circumstances is that on the next economic downturn it will be controlled by the Scottish Nationalists and the United Kingdom will face a major constitutional crisis.
  I read with incredulity references to making the constitution for local government more accountable. We have an Assembly in Wales, but when it passed a vote of censure on a Labour Minister, where was the accountability? It was dismissed as though it were of no consequence whatever.
  As for the House of Lords, the Government's action was one of political spite. There is no constitutional reform; they have simply decided to get rid of the hereditary peers and replace them with a committee. The virtue of the committee was that it enabled no decision to be taken about an alternative or any reform. We all know—especially those of us who listened to the late Enoch Powell and Mr. Michael Foot—that there is no reform that the House will pass that will create a credible House of Lords, as any such reform would deny the powers of the Commons. The Government can therefore only deal with the hereditary peers and face up to the fact that there is no constitutional integrity in any proposed reform, as we will find in the not too distant future.
  I should have thought that those arguments would weigh in the mind of the Deputy Prime Minister as he tried to persuade us that we would benefit from his innovations in local government. In London, the situation is farcical. Everyone knows that the Labour movement wants the hon. Member for Brent, East (Mr. Livingstone) to be mayor. It is quite evident that he carries the overwhelming support of the Labour movement. So what is his crime? Why are we going through this charade? [Interruption.] The Deputy Prime Minister is quite right to leave at this point, but I am sure that he will consult Hansard because I am about to explain why the Government do not want the hon. Member for Brent, East to be mayor.
  The hon. Gentleman has committed the ultimate crime: he says in public what the vast majority of Labour Members believe in private. His only crime is living up

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  to—and owning up to—the essence of what the Labour party is all about, and that has to be stifled to ensure that London does not get the choice and the man that the bulk of the Labour party supports as the potential candidate. So all the stuff about accountability and constitutional reform turns out to be ill-judged, short-term and not thought through. I therefore approach the overstated claims of constitutional reform in a mood which is a great deal south of zero when I hear them being repeated today.
  I shall concentrate on two lines in the Queen's Speech about the reform of local government. Of course I am well aware that there will be legislation to introduce directly elected mayors. I should now like to make what might broadly be called a loyalty pledge to my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood). I agree with every single word of his speech today, with the exception of the passage about directly elected mayors.
  In my view, the proposal at least to experiment with directly elected mayors is long overdue. First, we have too many councils. When we were in power, we had to face the need to continue the process that has been under way in this country since the 1960s to rationalise the number of councils so as to reflect modem conditions and the sophistication of contemporary services. My colleagues in that Government, the Secretaries of State for Scotland and for Wales, decided that they would go straight to unitary authorities and that they would prescribe them by law. I believe that they were right to do so, and that that is the only way in which we shall achieve the desired results.
  In England, for all sorts of political reasons, the decision was to set up a local committee to examine the matter area by area. The proposal was controversial and ran into the ground, but I advise the Government that the relevant legislation is on the statute book that would enable progress towards unitary authorities to take place. Such a structure is necessary for a modern system of local government. It is what obtains in Scotland and Wales, and in all the large metropolitan areas of the country.
  Secondly, it is becoming increasingly difficult to find candidates to stand as councillors. That is not a problem particularly for the Conservative party—all parties are finding it difficult to find men and women of the necessary calibre to become councillors. The reason is self-evident: increasingly, competitive pressures mean that it is difficult for people to deliver, on a part-time basis, the intensity of service that the job today requires.
  However, all hon. Members know that local government is of massive significance to the fabric of our society. It delivers a range of services that are fundamental to the quiet and decent enjoyment of a civilised society. Therefore the inevitable question arises: how does one create the accountability that will deliver the services with a degree of local discretion while at the same time carrying out national priorities? That is the dilemma that we must resolve.
  Running a major city such as Leeds, Newcastle or Birmingham is more than a full-time job. The chief executives appointed to lead the official side of council work are paid, on average and broadly speaking, more than their peer group of local citizens. Certainly, the amount that they receive is in line with the earnings of the more senior people in their peer group. Yet the council leaders, whose job of leading such cities is as sophisticated and testing as any job in government—with
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  the exception of the most senior Cabinet Ministers—are supposed to give their full-time commitment for remuneration that is at the very opposite end of local community norms.
  There is something crazy about that situation. The remuneration of council leaders does not reflect the need to attract the men and women—already engaged in full-time careers—who will give a positive lead in identifying, and being accountable for, the dynamism of Britain's great cities. That makes no sense. Priorities are topsy-turvy when officials earn dramatically more than their political masters.
  To get the men and women whom we need to run the councils we must recognise the scale of the responsibility involved in what is a major undertaking. Moreover, accountability would be best entrenched if those leaders were directly elected. That would give them a local profile—especially in the major cities—commensurate with the quality of the job and the challenge involved.
  As I understand it, the Government consider that we should move to experiments of the sort that might be compatible with what I am saying. My anxiety is that, if it is left to local discussion to work out the compromises that would lead to an agreement to centralise power in one directly elected person, an effective administration will never be established. That is because the potential leader, looking forward to the sort of employment terms that I am outlining, would have to reach all sorts of compromises with the other councillors to get them to agree to shift power from the committee structure to him or her. The type of streamlined and effective organisation that I consider it our task to demand would therefore not be realised. We will get that only if central Government set out a framework that the House can debate and legislate for, which would enable us to find out whether it could be made to work in practice.
  The next and absolutely essential change that must take place is for central Government to realise how Whitehall suffocates local government officials. All of us who have been in government understand the consequences of the formula-driven distribution of funds from central Government. Each Department distributes by formula certain sums of money as of entitlement—of right—to local authorities. Whether it is housing, social services, education or whatever, central Government hold the purse strings.
  At a local level, it is like a barony—the equivalent officials in each authority are looking up to Whitehall and not across to the leadership of their councils. Those officials are much more interested in the word coming down from Whitehall than in a collective concept of how to run the local authority more effectively. That is because central Whitehall prescribes in the minutest detail how they get the money and what it can be spent on.
  The situation is not as bad as it used to be in every case, but the House will imagine my incredulity when I first discovered in the early 1980s that a form requiring 80 answers had to be filled in before one could build a council house. The questions covered the slope of the roof, the colour of the bricks and the composition of the footings, all of which had to be approved by my Department in Whitehall. It is not as bad as that now, but that suffocation was not apparent to Members of Parliament or councillors, who talked about the freedom

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  to take decisions when they could take practically no decisions that were not double-checked and rubber-stamped in Whitehall.
  That culture still exists. As long as cash is distributed by formula and entitlement, we will never break it.
  Mrs. Dunwoody: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Heseltine: If the hon. Lady will forgive me I will not, as I wish to deploy a logical argument.
  The city challenge scheme with which we experimented had the opposite impact on local authorities. Instead of Whitehall saying, "This is what we want. This is what you will do. Then we will give you the money", we said, "This is the money that is on the table. Tell us what you will do." There were few conditions. One was that they had to work in conjunction with the whole community, including the private sector. The second was that they had to get the participation of the whole community. In other words, it was no good the leader of the local council saying, "The head teacher wants this, the chief constable wants that, council tenants want that." We asked, "Where is the head teacher? Where is the chief constable? Where are the tenants?" If they had all come together to work out what could be achieved and had backed it locally, with the private sector adding to public funds, the Government made commensurate judgments about the allocation of funds—the better the plan, the more money one got.
  In the first year, there was an outcry from those authorities that lost out. In the second year, those who had lost had found out how the people who had won had done so and had upped their standards. Then one got a degree of local enthusiasm and initiative that was unheard of in local government.
  The Government should not only have directly elected chief executives, but should extend that concept, which was specific to perhaps 10,000 to 20,000 people in a major metropolitan area, to the whole authority, encouraging it to produce a corporate plan and ask for Government finance to back it. That would have a dramatic effect, not only in breaking the knot between Whitehall and local authority officials, but in making those officials work as a team and think about the community. Unless everyone was committed to the corporate plan, they would not win. All local authority services would be working towards the advancement and improvement of the authority.
  That concept could be made to work. It would have a totally new psychological impact on local authorities and communities. The people involved would become genuine leaders of their communities, fighting for standards in which they believed and which they thought relevant. They would be allowed to initiate, to experiment and, sometimes, to make mistakes.
  Today, we have a conformist society imposed largely from the centre, and with conformism goes drabness. I believe that that is uncharacteristic of the extraordinary phenomenon of Victorian England, which developed these great metropolitan areas with local dynamism and leadership. We have to recreate that on a model that is to be found quite frequently across the world. I strongly urge
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  the Government to be brave and to take a chance to recreate the dynamism of local government in this country.
  1.45 pm
  Mr. Bill Tynan: I am grateful for the opportunity to make my maiden speech in this important debate.
  The history, tradition and procedures of this House are recognised throughout the world. To participate in my first debate as the elected member for Hamilton, South fills me with pride, a sense of humility and some apprehension. I am sure that right hon. and hon. Members will understand the mixture of emotions surging within me. I congratulate previous speakers; I hope some day to be able to match their expertise.
  I am told that it is traditional to pay tribute to one's predecessors. Even if no such tradition existed, I would wish to pay tribute to mine, Lord Robertson of Port Ellen. I had the privilege of knowing him as a friend. He is an individual of boundless energy and a man of real talent who never forgot why he entered politics. His ambition was to serve and leave a legacy of improved living standards for those whom he represented. This, I believe, he achieved. As a Member of Parliament, he had much to be proud of and I am honoured to follow in his footsteps. I know that the House will join me in wishing the Secretary-General of NATO a successful term in office, in the knowledge that he will work to deliver a safer and more peaceful world.
  I have lived in Hamilton since I married my wife Betty in 1964. Hamilton is the industrial, commercial and administrative centre of the constituency. It was a main stopping place in coaching days. The museum in Muir street is housed in the Hamilton Arms, a 17th century coaching inn. In its day, many famous people stayed there, including Thomas Telford, Dr. Johnson and his biographer, Boswell, Wordsworth and Coleridge. South Lanarkshire council is renovating the museum and merging it with the Cameronians museum. It is introducing the latest technology to create a virtual reality history of Lanarkshire's own regiment, the Cameronians, also known as the Scottish Rifles.
  Hamilton has historic churches and graveyards, and a world famous mausoleum. To the south-east stands Chatelherault, a 1730s hunting lodge of the fifth Duke of Hamilton designed by William Adam. It was recently refurbished for £7 million and restored to its former glory. We also have the remains of Cadzow castle, allegedly built by David I, where Mary, Queen of Scots stayed in 1568. The town centre is being regenerated and will be a showpiece for Lanarkshire when it is completed.
  I want to raise another important issue. I am sure that everyone has heard of my local team, Hamilton Academicals. Some commentators have a little difficulty with the name. During the by-election I, too, had some difficulty with the Accies. Their supporters decided to run a candidate against me to draw attention to the fact that the Accies no longer have a football stadium. He was well supported. Not only did he save his deposit, but he recorded 1,075 votes. The morning after the by-election, people said that it was the best result the Accies had had all season. Seriously, the result was important because it showed the depth of feeling on the issue. I have held two meetings with fans' representatives. I hope that the new

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  Government initiative on community football, backed by the Co-operative Bank, can be used to deliver a new home for the Accies and a community resource for Hamilton.
  In electoral terms, Hamilton, South is small. It covers three main areas: Hamilton, Burnbank and Blantyre, the birthplace of David Livingstone. There are also picturesque villages such as Ferniegair and Quarter. Quarter's most famous miners are well known: Keir Hardie and the most famous Scots singer of all, Harry Lauder. They both worked there.
  South Lanarkshire council, based in Hamilton, is the largest employer in the area. It has an excellent relationship with the Hamilton chamber of commerce and the Lanarkshire development agency. This co-operation has been successful in attracting new, high-tech companies which, together with traditional industries such as Philips, Atlas Hydraulics and Oticon, offer real job opportunities to the people of the area.
  The populations of Hamilton, Burnbank and Blantyre, as well as commuting to Glasgow, are employed in local Lanarkshire companies, such as Rolls-Royce, Hoover, Terex, Honeywells, E J Steils and Robert Lightbodys— I would recommend their cakes to anyone.
  Hamilton, South was predominantly mining communities, with a history of miners' representation, such as the late Alex Wilson MP who died in service in 1978. He was a man of the people—a miner himself who fought hard on behalf of the coal industry and the people of his constituency. To follow in the footsteps of men like Alex and George is, indeed, an honour as well as a challenge—one that I willingly accept.
  During the recent by-election, many important issues were raised, including drugs and the effect that this evil trade has on individuals, families and communities. The House, along with the devolved Scottish Parliament and the Assembly in Wales, has a duty to defeat this evil which preys on individuals, recognises no barriers or class and eats like a cancer into the fabric of our society. Within my constituency, during the by-election, we had the 100th drug death in Scotland. A young woman, a classmate of my youngest daughter, was found dead because of a drugs overdose. We have a responsibility to the country, which is why the resources available must be used to maximum effect. We must consider establishing a fast-track approach: specialist drug courts that can deal with the suppliers immediately, pass sentence within days and confiscate the proceeds from their ill-gotten gains. We must also assist the victims, who need support, not incarceration. That is why I congratulate the local newspaper, the Hamilton Advertiser, which has published a hotline number to enable people anonymously to report suspected drug dealers to the police.
  The police in my constituency, working with South Lanarkshire council and various community-based groups, have been innovative and forward looking. The child safety initiative is a demonstration of how effective co-operation can be. Initiatives such as that, if they are to be successful, require the support of the communities.
  In Hamilton, South we have an incredible range of active voluntary organisations such as the Blantyre volunteer group, Petal, Arthritis Care, Hamilton Women's Aid, Crossroads care attendance scheme, Cruse Bereavement Care, Hamilton community carers, Lanarkshire elderly forum, Hamilton disability forum, Lanarkshire community care forum, the Samaritans, the
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  Citizens Advice Bureau and, of course, south Lanarkshire's benefits, advice and advocacy services. They work tirelessly on behalf of the communities.
  The Government set out their economic objectives within their manifesto before the general election. The pledges made were relevant to my constituency then and remain so today. It was a contract with the people of this country, and at the next general election the people will pass judgment on how well the Government have done and how much they have delivered. I will be happy to fight that election on the Government's record.
  The Government's ambition was to achieve high, stable levels of economic growth and employment, to encourage work and to promote enterprise. The reduction of our massive debt burden was essential. The achievement of a reduction of £30 billion has opened up real opportunities for the Government and the country. The Government have laid the foundation of a fairer society where work is rewarded and the elimination of poverty becomes a crusade.
  The measures delivered by the Government are making a real difference to the lives of the people whom I represent. In Hamilton, South some 369 people benefited from the introduction of the minimum wage. Throughout the United Kingdom nearly 2 million workers improved their level of pay, two thirds of whom were women. From next April, child benefit will be increased to £15 for the first child and £10 for subsequent children. It will benefit nearly 9,000 families in my constituency. The new minimum income guarantee of £75 a week for a single pensioner and almost £117 for pensioner couples will apply to almost 2,000 of the least well-off pensioners in Hamilton, South.
  The introduction of free eye tests from last April affected 8,870 pensioners in my constituency. With the 10p rate of income tax extended to savings from April 1999, with the £100 winter allowance, and with every pensioner over the age of 75 able to receive their television licence free of charge from next autumn, pensioner households will be, on average, £300 a year better off.
  The introduction of the working families tax credit in addition to those measures will do much to encourage the culture of work and remove many families from the dependency culture of the state. At the heart of that initiative lies a guarantee that every family in this land that includes a full-time worker will have minimum take-home pay of £200 a week, and that no family on earnings of less than £235 a week—almost £12,000 a year—will pay income tax. At last—a measure that will start to eliminate poverty.
  There is much to be done, but we can and must all support the Government's ambition to reduce child poverty by half within the next decade, with a commitment to end all child poverty within the next 20 years. In Hamilton, South, 1,600 families are beneficiaries of that policy, and 3,000 children will notice a real difference in their lives. One thousand, six hundred working families in my community have evidence that work does pay, and that work is the route out of poverty.
  The fuel tax escalator was important to my constituency. The Chancellor's pre-Budget statement contained many excellent points, and the attainment of the reduction in CO2 emission targets that allowed him to relax the application of the tax will be especially

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  welcome. Although the Sunday Post in Scotland may claim success for its campaign, that was possible only because we were meeting our international commitments.
  For many years, unemployment has been a major issue for everyone in this country. In his maiden speech, my predecessor expressed his concerns for the people of Hamilton. Hamilton, Burnbank and Blantyre, once mining areas, no longer have pits. The industrial structure has also declined, but the service sector has grown.
  The introduction of the new deal has been a success story. It has assisted the reduction of youth unemployment not only in my constituency, but throughout the country. Employment in the United Kingdom is up by more than 700,000 since the general election. With the new deal, youth unemployment is down by more than 60 per cent. and long-term unemployment is down by more than 50 per cent. The ambition of full employment has been a dream for so many for so long. Twenty-one years ago, my predecessor spoke with passion about the scourge of unemployment and its demoralising effect on society. The most serious aspect of youth unemployment was the emergence of a lost generation of the young without hope, dignity or jobs. We must never be complacent, or gamble with the future of our nation again.
  The measures contained in the Gracious Speech are part of the Government's on-going programme to promote fairness and enterprise, to provide people with real opportunities and to liberate their potential. I believe that it will be welcomed in my constituency.
  In conclusion, I thank my hon. Friends the Members for Clydesdale (Mr. Hood) and for Stirling (Mrs. McGuire), my wife and family who have given me tremendous support, and the members of my constituency party, who made my participation in the debate possible.
  1.58 pm
  Mr. Don Foster: It is a great honour to follow the hon. Member for Hamilton, South (Mr. Tynan). He told the House that he hoped that, in due course, he would learn the skills of presentation in the House. The truth is that he is well ahead of many of us already. He rightly praised his predecessor, whom I am sure the whole House wants to wish the very best in his new job as Secretary-General of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. The hon. Gentleman spoke with great knowledge and passion of the concerns of his constituents, whom he will undoubtedly represent with great energy.
  The hon. Gentleman must have had a somewhat nail-biting end to his election campaign. As we have been talking about freedom of information legislation, I suppose that it is only right to place on the record the fact that he mentioned the relatively few votes that the Hamilton Accies gained in the election. Sadly, the candidate for my party received even fewer votes on that occasion. Nevertheless, as the Scots were saying after last night's match, we shall be back.
  The sad truth is that the hon. Gentleman's speech and some of the earlier speeches have not given me the opportunity to get my breath back following the speech by the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood). Trying to follow the twists, turns and U-turns of Conservative party policy in this area has given a new meaning to the words "common sense".
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  However, common sense was spoken by the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody), who rightly praised just about everybody involved with her Select Committee, including the Clerks and all the helpers. I am sure that the whole House wants to thank her for her tremendous contribution on transport issues in recent times.
  I am sorry to see that the right hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine) is no longer in his place, because he spoke a great deal of common sense, somewhat to my surprise. I found myself in considerable agreement with what he was saying. I hope that he will check this out in Hansard, because I would be happy to stand at one end of a banner proclaiming "Free Local Government" if he is willing to stand at the other. That theme chimes well with my party.
  We have learned a great deal in the past 24 hours. We have learned something remarkable about the Deputy Prime Minister. Many of us enjoyed his performances on the "Today" programme yesterday and today. This morning's performance was particularly revealing, when he revealed that he has known all along that there was not going to be a transport Bill for three years after the election of the Labour Government. We thought that he was battling away with the Treasury and No. 10 Downing street, but the reality is that he is a man of great generosity who agreed to stand aside and let his colleagues take all the credit for their Bills.
  However, the wait has been worth it. It is a bit like waiting for one of the buses that so rarely come. If we wait long enough, eventually three of them will come along. The Deputy Prime Minister has waited long enough and got his three Bills. Broadly speaking, we welcome his success in securing those Bills and much of their content. I shall comment on those three Bills in turn, but it is a pity that there is one Bill missing. I should very much have liked to see a warm homes Bill in the Queen's Speech. As we all know, 8 million people in this country suffer from fuel poverty. Far too many deaths—between 30,000 and 60,000 a year—are linked to hypothermia. We desperately need to take action to improve the quality of those homes.
  The Deputy Prime Minister might well point out that the Government have taken action. We welcome the reduction in VAT on fuel and the £100 addition for pensioners. However, he will know that even the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry pointed out recently in a letter to Friends of the Earth in his constituency that there is little point in throwing money at the problem if the vast majority of it is simply burned to heat the air above houses. We need to have properly insulated, warm homes if people are to be able to benefit from the reduction in VAT and the £100 fuel allowance.
  Mr. John Heppell: Under the home energy efficiency scheme, the Government have put an extra £260 million into ensuring that pensioners' homes in particular are adequately insulated.
  Mr. Foster: I was trying to point out that the Government have taken some action, but I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will have looked at the report of the Environmental Audit Committee in the previous Session, which referred to the issue as "a continuing national scandal" and said that it
  "should be addressed with the sort of urgency and determination usually reserved for more sudden crises here and abroad."

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  The Government have already taken some action, but more work is needed. I hope that the Deputy Prime Minister will be prepared to consider that.
  As I deal with aspects of the Queen's Speech that fall within the remit of the Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions, I hope that he will intervene. He and I agree on the need to reduce congestion on our roads. To achieve that we have to reduce the number of car journeys and increase the use of public transport. The question is: how far are we prepared to go? The Liberal Democrats' view is that we must not only reduce the rate of traffic growth, but achieve an absolute reduction in traffic on our roads. On 6 June 1997, the Deputy Prime Minister stated:
  "I will have failed if in five years' time there are not many more people using public transport and far fewer journeys by car. It's a tall order, but I urge you to hold me to it."
  The right hon. Gentleman's clear intention was to reduce the absolute number of journeys taken by car. I shall be grateful if he intervenes to confirm that he intends to hold to that promise.
  Mr. Prescott: I am happy to respond and to tell the hon. Gentleman that the process is already under way. In the past two years, more people have started to use public transport, which is the first stage of achieving our goal. In many areas, such as Manchester and Brighton, where public transport has been improved, people now use their cars less and public transport more. I readily set the target for myself and I am glad that we are on the way to achieving it.
  Mr. Foster: From that, I take it that the right hon. Gentleman intends to stick to his absolute commitment to acknowledge failure if the level of car use does not decrease in real terms during the five years to which he referred.
  We are delighted that there is to be a draft Bill on leasehold reform. As the right hon. Gentleman acknowledges, such legislation is long overdue. We are also delighted that there is to be a water efficiency Bill, even though the Minister for the Environment appears to have been as surprised as anyone by its inclusion in the Queen's Speech. We also welcome the three major Bills to be promoted by the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions.
  Liberal Democrats acknowledge that opening access to the countryside is important. However, the Deputy Prime Minister has acknowledged that that cannot be an unfettered right. For us, the devil will be in the detail: when the Bill is published, we shall want to know about the constraints that are to be imposed, and about safeguards, provisions for local consent and opportunities for local variations. I hope that the Government have also considered the very different circumstances in Wales and that there will be a separate section in the Bill dealing with the right to roam in Wales.
  We welcome the greater protection for wildlife, which is an issue on which my hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Mr. Brake) and hon. Members from both sides of the House have worked tirelessly. I hope that the Bill will provide protection for wildlife outside sites of special scientific interest; that it will include provisions for the financial support of important wildlife sites; and that it will provide SSSIs
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  with protection against any exploitation of minerals, especially peat—currently, about 4,000 SSSIs are subject to peat extraction.
  As I said, I entirely agree with the views on local government expressed by the right hon. Member for Henley. We have to free local government from the chains imposed on it by Governments of both complexions and Whitehall. I am absolutely delighted that the local government Bill is to repeal section 28. That was an illiberal measure, which should never have reached the statute book. We are delighted that it will be removed at long last.
  We are worried that there is an overall lack of flexibility in the proposals to modernise local government. If we are to free local government, we should allow it, with the agreement of local communities, greater opportunity to decide how best to conduct its business. That decision should not be made centrally. There is too much concentration on structures rather than on outcomes, about which we should all be concerned. I am worried that the centralising tendency will be perpetuated in the Bill. Three items are missing from the measure.
  If we truly want people to be interested in local government, we will not achieve that simply by tinkering with its method of decision making. We should consider the sort of decisions that local government is allowed to make. Local people will be interested in local government only if it is allowed to tackle the community's genuine problems. Local councils should be given a power of general competence to enable them to deal with all matters apart from those that they are specifically prohibited from tackling.
  There should be a fairer funding system, and the introduction of local income tax. There should also be a fairer voting system—to avoid doubt, I mean proportional representation. [Interruption.] I am delighted with the Deputy Prime Minister's response from a sedentary position. I have already got two out of three concessions from him. Perhaps a little more discussion will lead to the third.
  Mr. Prescott: No discussions.
  Mr. Foster: Let us consider transport, on which there may be an opportunity for discussion, despite the Deputy Prime Minister's comment. If he wants support for some of the transport measures, he must look to these Benches; he will not get it from Conservative Members.
  Mr. Prescott: We are introducing the measure because it is right.
  Mr. Foster: Indeed. We shall support the measure when it is right. We shall not support the official Opposition's position. It is interesting to note that Conservative Members use their policies as dirty words. When the Leader of the official Opposition attacks the Government's proposal for congestion charges, he refers to it as a poll tax on wheels.
  It would be easier to support the Deputy Prime Minister's transport measures if people were confident that the Government were doing everything possible and not simply requiring action from the private sector and local government. As I have said to the right hon. Gentleman in our brief exchanges since I took on responsibility for

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  transport, it is worrying that the Government's share of spending on public transport has decreased. There are other sources of funding, but the Government's share has gone down. It will decrease by 7.5 per cent. over five years according to Red Book figures.
  Mr. Prescott: Watch this space.
  Mr. Foster: The Deputy Prime Minister says, "Watch this space"—perhaps I have got three out of four concessions. I shall keep going and make further suggestions.
  As the Deputy Prime Minister is in a generous mood, he might consider another idea that would help him. The public are worried about some of the proposed further charges, and it might be worth considering whether to get rid of vehicle excise licence duty or at least to reduce it significantly for those with small cars. That might encourage people to use cars that are less polluting; it could prove to be a popular measure.
  On the Strategic Rail Authority, I cannot improve on the comments of the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich. We support the authority. However, as we said in Committee, a strategic transport authority would be preferable as it could cover all forms of public transport. We hope that the Strategic Rail Authority will consider, for example, simplifying ticketing practice and a proper national timetable. Those are important matters, which the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich mentioned. She rightly appreciated the importance of the Deputy Prime Minister moving from being minded to take safety from Railtrack to implementing it. We acknowledge that it is difficult to decide who should have responsibility for safety, but we hope that the Deputy Prime Minister will reassign it.
  Let us consider bus deregulation. We support the Government's proposals to remedy the problems that the previous Government created through deregulation. The Deputy Prime should consider open-top, tourist buses, which have not yet been taken into account. There is genuine anxiety in tourist areas such as my constituency of Bath, York and many other places, where tourist buses cause problems. If open-top buses stick to a timetable, their operators can get the reduction in fuel tax. On a wet day, the bus can drive around empty, or with one or two passengers, stick to its timetable and be eligible for the fuel tax reduction. The bus thus adds to congestion. I hope that such problems can be solved.
  The sad truth is, that when the Conservatives were in power, I wrote to the Transport Minister of the day and received a reply that said, "We'll look at it some time later." A new Government gained power, I wrote to them and received a letter that was exactly the same, word for word.
  Mr. Prescott: When?
  Mr. Foster: I have a copy of the letter, which I shall pass to the Deputy Prime Minister. We play a game in my office in which we blank out the names at the top of the letters and ask people to guess which was written under a Conservative Administration and which was written under a Labour Government.
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  I shall comment on the rural bus challenge. I hope that the House realises that public transport will not, by itself, solve all the transport problems of rural areas. We must acknowledge that the majority of people in rural areas need to use their cars and will continue to do so. We must ensure that policies support those people and do not make matters more difficult for them.
  It is right to provide for improving rural bus systems. We welcome the small additional sums that the Government provide, but it is ludicrous to hand out a small amount of money and expect people to prepare expensive bids to get it when only 22 per cent. of bids have been successful. Preparing those bids wastes much energy in local government. There must be a better way of allocating money.
  The proposal to part-privatise National Air Traffic Services will cause the greatest disagreement between the Government and the Liberal Democrats. There are clearly differences between the official Opposition and the Government: the Government want to part-privatise NATS while the official Opposition want to privatise it completely. We support neither option. However, we all want increased investment in NATS. As the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich, who chairs the Transport Sub-Committee, said, there is a sensible proposal for achieving that: the establishment of a not-for-profit, public interest company. That is the most efficient way of raising the money and would remove all existing anxieties. The Deputy Prime Minister knows that pilots, operators, the unions and more than 100 Labour Back Benchers oppose the part-privatisation, which is highly unpopular. We shall support several measures that are under the right hon. Gentleman's aegis in the Queen's Speech, but we implacably oppose the proposal to sell NATS.
  2.19 pm
  Dr. Gavin Strang: I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Foster), the Liberal Democrat spokesperson, and, like him, I welcome much of the Queen's Speech. A lot of the measures will implement manifesto pledges given by the Labour party at the last election. On transport, like the Liberal Democrats, I broadly welcome the fact that we shall go ahead with a proper statutory Strategic Rail Authority. We inherited a privatised, fragmented railway system and I believe that the SRA will make a significant contribution to improving the quality of service in our railway industry. The hon. Gentleman said that he would like a strategic transport authority to be established.
  My right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister has set up a committee to advise him on integrated transport. His Department, along with all the local authorities, is the driving force for the integrated transport policy. There is a fairly broad consensus between the Labour and Liberal parties that local authorities should be given the option to introduce congestion charging.
  I shall take a leaf out of the book of the right hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine), the former Deputy Prime Minister, and concentrate most of my remarks on the area in which I and many of my hon. Friends in the parliamentary Labour party disagree with the Government—the proposal, which is how we should consider it at present, that legislation should deal with aviation. We should be under no illusions about the

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  importance to this country of aviation, which is a huge business. It is growing faster than the national economy, the number of jobs linked directly and indirectly to it is increasing and it is vital to the overall efficiency of the United Kingdom economy. Britain is a European leader in the aviation industry.
  The Labour party leadership likes to say, "We will lead in Europe". Our aviation industry already leads in Europe. An integral part of that aviation industry is our air traffic control system, in which this country is a world leader. We must fully grasp and understand that before we significantly change the present air traffic control arrangements.
  It is proposed that safety regulation be separated from service provision. There will be little opposition to that. I think that the issue is open—the proposition is supported by Eurocontrol and the Transport Sub-Committee of the Environment, Transport and Regional Affairs Committee—and I understand that economic and safety regulation will stay with the Civil Aviation Authority, although various proposals concerning a transport safety super-body have been floated. My hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody), the Chairman of the Transport Sub-Committee, may have been hinting at that in relation to transport safety across the modes. However, I shall leave that on one side: the issue is whether it is necessary to split the CAA and have a more direct split between service provision and regulation.
  One has to bear it in mind that air traffic controllers are regulators, and what they do is what counts. They keep the planes apart. I have had the privilege to represent my constituency in the House of Commons for more than a quarter of a century. Most weeks of the year, I fly in and out of Heathrow airport and no doubt many other hon. Members, as members of the public, have accepted the chance to go into the cockpit with the pilot. This country has an excellent air traffic control system. If the legislation is to propose separating regulation from service provision more formally, there will be no opposition to that, but the real issue concerns privatisation or part-privatisation. I have no doubt that many Labour Members are still trying to persuade Ministers not to privatise Britain's air traffic control.
  Why are the Government proposing privatisation? First, they would receive a capital receipt. To be fair to my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister, he set that out fully at the Labour party conference. Some people have said that National Air Traffic Services is worth £1 billion, so half would be worth £500 million, and I suspect that it will be worth rather more when Swanwick is operational. Nevertheless, a sum of money would be available, but one does not want to exaggerate it. The tax on air passengers introduced by the previous Government brings in about £700 million and the figure will soon be up to £1 billion a year—not a one-off £500 million, which would be raised from the half-privatisation of NATS, but a significant annual sum coming in from the aviation industry. Taking money out of aviation and air traffic control in order to put it into something else—a one-off capital receipt—is not an idea that should be taken on board.
  The second argument, which is also financial, is that we need to privatise NATS in order to get investment. This country has a good record of investment in air traffic control—certainly a better record than the other members of Eurocontrol. I say quite openly that it is a tribute to past
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  Conservative Governments that this country has invested heavily in NATS—we have just taken over and have inherited the investment programme—and the problems at Swanwick, which is the big new centre near Southampton, relate not to lack of investment but to technical challenges. That is why it would be a mistake, at this time of all times, to divert the attention of top management to privatisation. Private business is involved in developing the new equipment and the new system there.
  I submit that our country's record on investment in air traffic control is fairly good, but we can improve it. I believe that, when the sort of money that the Chancellor was talking about last week is available, a Labour Government could justify maintaining and improving on the past investment record in respect of NATS. Some strange figures have been bandied about in the press today, but we are not talking about £1 billion a year, as someone wrote. Investing £1 billion over 10 years would be better than what has been done in the past, but the critical point is that if the Government are determined to put private money into NATS, they can do so by allowing it to borrow directly in the markets, which is what we have done in relation to Manchester municipal airport. That means that we are borrowing for investment, which is what my right hon. Friend the Chancellor believes in, and that such borrowing does not qualify as public sector borrowing under the Maastricht treaty.
  I do not accept that the Treasury definition of public sector borrowing should be the decisive issue for air traffic control in this country. The decisive issues are safety and security. I shall discuss safety.
  Mr. Prescott: Obviously that debate will take place, and I cannot go through all the points that my right hon. Friend has mentioned, but he is quite wrong about Manchester. I introduced the innovative financing for the Manchester airports. They borrow against the assets in a domestic market, as geared to Treasury rules. I persuaded my right hon. Friend the Chancellor to change the Treasury rules. NATS operates under international agreements under which borrowing, financing and charges are agreed internationally. There is not the same freedom. Borrowing in respect of Manchester airport will not count against public sector borrowing; it will simply become private money, not public money. He is not comparing like with like.
  Dr. Strang: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that intervention. He will be aware that his officials have negotiated at Eurocontrol a change in the arrangements in order to facilitate privatisation. [Interruption.] In relation to that point, if the argument is about how we define the PSBR, I defer to the hon. Member for Bath. I am not defending the Chancellor's definition of the PSBR, but under the Maastricht treaty, what I am describing does not come within the PSBR.
  Mr. Don Foster: Has the right hon. Gentleman noticed another part of the Queen's Speech dealing with the Government's accounting Bill? The Gracious Speech specifically states that the Bill will
  "generate more investment in public infrastructure and front line services."

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  The Bill to introduce resource accounting will change the definition of the PSBR and make it much easier to use public money directly to invest in organisations such as NATS and to avoid the problem that we are both trying to resolve.
  Dr. Strang: The British public will not believe that the privatisation of National Air Traffic Services is proposed in order to enhance safety. The airline pilots are against it. Hon. Members will have read the letter in The Times this week from the three trade unions most directly involved—the British Air Line Pilots Association, representing the pilots; the Institution of Professionals, Managers and Specialists, representing the controllers; and the Public and Commercial Services Union, representing support staff. The other names on the letter were those of the chairman of the south-west London campaigning group on clear skies, and Mr. Gifford, executive director of the Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety.

  Since the announcement of the complex privatisation scheme on the day that the House rose before the summer recess, the Government have still not persuaded the airline pilots—who are the key people—or the controllers. Let us not forget also that there is tremendous opposition from the general aviation community. That is not the big airlines, but the business people who fly smaller planes. It is particularly important that they should be encouraged to clock on with NATS in our controlled air space.
  In conclusion, I shall concentrate on the security issues. There are two aspects—first, the threat of global terrorism. We live in the global village and must recognise that such a threat exists. I do not want to be melodramatic, but if intelligence information is received about a bomb on an incoming plane, we need to be able to seize control of the country's air traffic control system. If that is a privatised monopoly operating under price controls, there is much less incentive for it to co-operate with the Government than if it were in the public sector.
  The second security issue, which transcends all other issues, as many hon. Members will appreciate, is our national security in relation to hostile military aircraft. We hope that we are moving into a century when hostile military aircraft will not try to enter our controlled airspace, but the lesson of the century that we are just leaving is that we should not bank on that. Periods of tension may still occur, and I hope that no one will defend the proposed privatisation with the argument that the air traffic control system could be taken back into Government ownership in wartime during a period of serious international tension, or during the build-up of hostilities, or even when war broke out.
  For reasons of national security, other countries, including the United States, have not privatised their air traffic control systems.
  Mr. Jenkin: I am listening carefully to the right hon. Gentleman. He said earlier that the Bill would separate the operation of air traffic control from safety considerations, and that that met with the approval of Eurocontrol. Do his concerns about security following privatisation also apply to the plans to allow Eurocontrol to take control of air traffic operations in the United
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  Kingdom? Will not the laws made by Eurocontrol have direct effect in our own law, so that European airspace will be controlled internationally, rather than our airspace being controlled by our own Government and our own laws? Will the right hon. Gentleman comment?
  Dr. Strang: I am not saying that at all. There is no question but that greater co-operation is needed at European level. I am referring to military issues, not the way in which we organise the arrangements and the provision of air traffic management services in the European Union and beyond.
  One of our most important achievements when we held the presidency of the EU Transport Council was to secure agreement for the establishment of a European aviation safety authority, about which the Select Committee might have been a little more positive in its report. That goes beyond the European Union and beyond air traffic management and control. It covers some of the east European countries, where it is extremely important to raise standards of aviation safety.
  As the hon. Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin) mentioned European issues, I should point out that no country in the European Union has a privatised air traffic control system or is proposing to privatise its existing system. I do not understand a Minister saying that we propose to privatise our air traffic control system in order to facilitate greater co-operation in Europe in relation to Eurocontrol.
  Miss Anne McIntosh: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for allowing me to intervene. Does he agree that Britain has been a flagship in respect of aviation? Other member states were slow to privatise their flag carriers. The previous Conservative Government privatised British Airways very successfully. Other member states have also been slow to privatise their airports. Again, we acted as a flagship in that regard. British Airports Authority has set high standards, which are admired throughout the European Union. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that as other European states have been slow to privatise other aspects of air transport, they will probably look to us to give a lead in the privatisation of air traffic services?
  Dr. Strang: I thoroughly reject that argument which should apply to the United States. I defer to the hon. Lady's experience in relation to Europe and the European Parliament, but I do not believe that we would be giving a lead by privatising air traffic control, and that that would result in some big multinational company taking over air traffic control in European airspace. That is not realistic. Can we expect the French to allow some foreign-based company to take over control of their airspace?
  One of our great strengths is the way in which we integrate our military airspace with our civil airspace. That is facilitated by their being in the public sector. At West Drayton and at Prestwick, one can see how the military controllers operate with the civil controllers. I am glad that the hon. Lady made her point.
  In an interesting speech, Sir Malcolm Field, the chairman of the Civil Aviation Authority, dealt with the argument that the privatisation of air traffic control was somehow like privatising an airline. The difference is fundamental. When an airline is privatised, it can make

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  more private profit, as a privatised company naturally wants to do. It can do so by building its business, expanding its share of the market, providing more frequent services, improving the meals that it serves and so on. There are many means by which a privatised airline can increase its private profits.
  That does not apply in the same way to air traffic control. All that the controllers do is keep planes apart. They ensure that they enter and leave our airspace and airports without any incidents. This country has a tremendous record in that regard. Therefore, I appeal to the Government not to rush into this complex privatisation scheme, particularly when NATS is moving into an important phase. It is scheduled to bring Swanwick into operation in 2002 and it must also bring the new Scottish centre into operation.
  I welcome Ministers' reaffirmation that they are committed to the two-centre strategy, but it is vital that we do not go ahead with the privatisation of air traffic control. If we do not, Labour Members will be able to unite behind a transport Bill in which we believe.
  2.40 pm
  Mr. Christopher Gill: I congratulate the hon. Member for Hamilton, South (Mr. Tynan) on his maiden speech. I hope that he will find his membership of the House satisfying and fulfilling, as indeed I am sure he will.
  I shall confine my remarks to three aspects of the Queen's Speech, particularly in so far as they impact upon my constituents. I shall talk about education, health and the countryside.
  The Queen's Speech stated:
  "Education remains my Government's number one priority."
  On health, it stated:
  "My Government's ten year programme of modernisation for health and social care will provide faster, more convenient services to help improve the country's health."
  That is the Government's rhetoric, but the reality, as perceived from Shropshire, is somewhat different.
  The front-page headline on last Thursday's edition of the Shropshire Star was "Teaching on a shoestring". On Friday, its headline referred to health authority funding in Shropshire and stated, "Missing Out on Millions". I should point out that I have no influence over what the Shropshire Star prints, but, on Saturday, the headline was "Health chiefs warn of extra cash need".
  On every important front, Shropshire is being shortchanged. For example, on education, the London borough of Southwark receives a 50 per cent. higher standard spending assessment for every pupil than Shropshire. So that there is no confusion, I shall provide the figures. For every primary school pupil, Shropshire receives £2,220 while Southwark receives more than 50 per cent. more—the SSA for a primary school child there is £3,396. A child at a secondary school in Shropshire has an SSA of £2,837, while in Southwark the figure is more than 50 per cent. higher at £4,377.
  As if those figures were not bad enough, per capita health spending in Shropshire is £552 against per capita expenditure in Birmingham of £714, and £613 and £596 respectively in the neighbouring counties of Staffordshire and Herefordshire. That is from a
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  Government who boast about making health and education their priority. Try telling that to the people whom I represent in Shropshire.
  What will the Secretary of State for Education and Employment do about his reported comments in the Shropshire Star? When he visited Shropshire last week, the headline was "Education is the key says visitor Blunkett". Following his visit, the newspaper reported that
  "he accepted that the system of dishing out cash to education chiefs was unfair and Shropshire was missing out."
  The newspaper then quotes him as saying:
  "I appreciate the way people in Shropshire feel about it… The difference is staggering."
  The difference is staggering, so I repeat my question: what will the Secretary of State do about the wholly unsatisfactory situation that affects the education of young people in my constituency?
  When will the Secretary of State for Health start to fund Shropshire up to the level of other health authorities, instead of closing the excellent new facilities at Kidderminster hospital, which the previous Conservative Government provided at a cost of £25 million and on which thousands of my constituents depend? I draw attention to the fact that the Queen's Speech says that the Government are committed to providing
  "more convenient services to help improve the country's health."
  The Prime Minister went on record saying that the Government would spend money on improving every accident and emergency unit in the country.
  Those statements do not apply to the Kidderminster hospital, where the accident and emergency facility is being phased out and will be closed down. Far from my constituents having greater convenience in the health provision that is made for them, they will have to journey a further 17 miles to a new hospital that is being built in Worcester. In short, I ask Ministers when this duplicitous Government will put real money where their mouth is. When will they make a reality of their much-vaunted rhetoric?
  The plight of agriculture is another issue of vital concern to my constituents. After two and a half years in government and in spite of all the correspondence that we have had with Ministers, all the meetings between Back Benchers and Ministers and between trade associations and Ministers, and all the debates on agriculture that the Opposition have initiated in this Chamber, the Government have done absolutely nothing beyond what they were obliged to do under the agrimonetary arrangements, other than postpone the implementation of cost burdens that they themselves imposed.
  This is a Government who have learned nothing and forgotten nothing. This is a Government who say that they recognise the problems of over-regulation and yet introduce a Queen's Speech with a record-breaking 28 new Bills. This is a Government who shed crocodile tears for the beef industry, but perpetuate the ludicrous beef on the bone ban. This is a Government who shed crocodile tears for the sheep industry, but will not lift the totally unnecessary spinal column removal regulation. This is a Government who shed crocodile tears for the pig and poultry industries, knowing that the charges that they intend to levy under the integrated pollution prevention and control regulations will put the final nail in the coffin for a whole raft of British pig and poultry farmers.
  Mr. David Prior: I am sure that my hon. Friend will have been contacted by many farmers in

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  Shropshire, as I have been in Norfolk. They are concerned about the implementation of the IPPC regulations. For many pig and poultry farmers, it could be the straw that breaks the camel's back.
  Mr. Gill: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. They have that real fear—[Interruption.] I shall now provide the facts because, although my hon. Friend knows them, Labour Members obviously do not.
  Under the IPPC regulations, an initial application charge of £6,098, which is multiplied by the number of components—the areas of pollution—and an annual subsistence charge of £2,768, which is again multiplied by the number of components, will be levied on pig producers. In addition to those charges, there will be monitoring, transfer and surrender charges, which means that for a typical 2,000-sow unit the annual costs could exceed £18,000.
  That may not seem a lot of money to Treasury Ministers, but I assure the House that, to any pig producer in this country today, £18,000 is an extremely large sum because almost all pig producers are trading at unsustainable losses. For the Government now to impose increased cost burdens on the industry is totally unreasonable, and, as my hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk (Mr. Prior) said, it will be the last straw for many pig and poultry producers.
  While I am on cost burdens, it is worth noting that under this Government road fuel duties and meat inspection charges have escalated. We may have seen off the pesticides tax, but I should like that to be confirmed. I have already mentioned the IPPC charges; there are validation charges for any butcher who wants to put beef in his window and describe it as "British".
  Mr. Letwin: Does my hon. Friend agree that it is extremely dangerous for us to be complacent about the pesticides tax? The Chancellor has not said much about that tax, but is it not true that he has introduced 32 taxes without saying very much about them?
  Mr. Gill: Indeed, that is true. My hon. Friend is right to point that out. The only solace I can give him on that point is that, as I travel around my constituency and around the country, I find that more and more people are talking about stealth taxes. They know what is going on and they increasingly realise that this Government are quite different from previous Labour Governments, who espoused in-your-face socialism. We saw that coming. They were for nationalisation, clause IV and high taxation. Labour Members may laugh, but perhaps their memories are shorter than mine. Do they not recall that under the previous Labour Government, it was possible for taxpayers to pay tax of 98p in the pound? That Government's only reason for not increasing taxes above that level should be obvious to Labour Members, as it is to the general public.
  To return to the extreme threats to agriculture, particularly to the pig and poultry industries, I wonder whether colleagues are aware that, this week, poultry producers received a letter from a company called Amtrak, on which they have relied very heavily for the transport of day-old chicks around the country. Amtrak
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  now says that it will discontinue that service. That was not entirely unpredictable, because many of us recognised that it would be a consequence of the directive on the transport of live animals, which has been in the pipeline. The results of that directive are now beginning to manifest themselves.
  The Government are characterised by a Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food who will not make the decisions that he could make and says that he cannot make the decisions that he ought to make. Perhaps not all Labour Members heard the news bulletin this morning that stated that Germany would not consider lifting the ban on British beef unless and until there was country of origin labelling. That is significant, because the Government have set their face against country of origin labelling.
  I should like an undertaking that, before he proceeds to legislate, and having carried out the review that he promised in an earlier debate about the labelling of food, the Minister will come to the House so that we can debate how we might proceed on that issue. Back Benchers on both sides of the House would then have an opportunity to tell him what the great British public want in the way of labelling.
  My guess is that the public want the same as Germany: a statement of the country of origin. Many housewives would like to discriminate in favour of a purer, home-grown product against an adulterated, imported product, but cannot make that informed choice because the Government will not tell producers to state the country of origin on the product.
  The Queen's Speech contains nothing for the British farmer, and I am extremely disappointed that there is no acknowledgement of the many and varied practical suggestions that have been made to Ministers by agriculture and allied industries in the past two and a half years. Many of us have spent a lot of time making constructive suggestions to help to solve our industry's problems. Not one of those suggestions has been followed.
  There has been no attempt to revise the legislation affecting the splitting of sheep carcases or to authorise dedicated pig offal rendering. There has been no reply, even, to the offer by the Meat Training Council, of which I have the honour to be the honorary president, to provide courses that would cross-train meat inspectors to carry out the duties in abattoirs that are currently undertaken by expensive vets. There has been no undertaking to lift the beef on the bone ban, or to postpone the implementation of the IPPC charges, the consequences of which I have already mentioned.
  This is a do-nothing Government, a Government of spin and no substance, and a Government who can no longer pretend to be the party of the countryside. The Queen's Speech contains nothing for my constituents in Shropshire, and nothing to help agriculture, which is vital to my county's economy and the maintenance of the rural landscape, which is one of the country's priceless assets.
  What the Queen's Speech contains that is relevant to the countryside is a Bill to give
  "greater access to the countryside and to improve protection for wildlife."
  Desirable as those aims may be—I have to point out to Labour Members that they will prove to be contentious and will take up much of the House's time during the next

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  Session—while we are discussing them, the British farmer is going out of business. The proposed legislation entirely misses the point because the endangered species in the countryside is not the wildlife, but those people who have made the countryside what it is today and towards whom the Government display an indifference that many of my constituents find hard to understand. I shall vote accordingly.
  2.59 pm
  Jane GriffithsI shall not take up too much of the House's time, but I want to welcome the proposed legislation on transport. Those of us with constituencies in the south and south-east of England are particularly aware of the problems that congestion causes, although I know that such awareness is widespread.
  The right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood), who is no longer in his place, is my constituency neighbour, and his constituents drive into my constituency to work, do their shopping, go to college and so on. The right hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine) is also my constituency neighbour, to the north, and his constituents drive south into my constituency, causing congestion.
  It is vital to tackle congestion. We have waited more than a generation for a Government with a serious attitude to tackling congestion. That is not anti-motorist. There is no such species as the motorist, only people who make journeys. At some point everyone is a pedestrian, if only while walking from the front door to the garage to get into the car. At some point everyone is a child and too young to drive, and at some point everyone becomes old, perhaps infirm or disabled, and unable to drive. Even those who drive throughout their lives from the age of 17 spend more of their life outside their car than in it.
  I want to refer briefly to the true cost of congestion and pollution resulting from the unfettered use of private cars. There is the social exclusion that can be seen in affluent households where a generation of children make all their journeys in cars, from small babies strapped in child seats to teenagers driven about by their parents, and children who never play outside, fall down and graze their knees or feel the rain on their face. At some point, they will be adolescents who need to get out and look for excitement in the way that teenagers do. Such teenagers may never have travelled on their own using public transport, and they will be at risk in a way that previous generations were not. We hear plenty about children being unfit and overweight, and that is the result of the unfettered use of the private car.
  The previous Government had vindictive, anti-public transport policies, which virtually destroyed public transport in much of the country, especially in rural areas. This Government want to give real choice back to the people. In too many places in Britain, elderly people, perhaps with disabilities, have no choice without access to a car. We must give choice back to the people, and that means that we must sweep away the vindictive anti-public transport policies, giving our roads back to all people, not just to the drivers.
  3.2 pm
  Miss Anne McIntosh: I am delighted to speak in this Queen's Speech debate on the environment, transport and the countryside. I declare an interest in that, being married to an airline executive and a past Member
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  of the European Parliament, I can say with some confidence that my husband and I are both well travelled. I am also a member of the Royal Automobile Club's public policy committee, but I am not speaking on its behalf this afternoon.
  If I were to relate my constituency of the Vale of York to the Government's programme in the Queen's Speech, we would come out of it extremely badly. The Vale of York is deeply rural. To Americans who wonder which part of the country I represent, I always say that it is James Herriot countryside. I represent parts of the outskirts of York—New Earswick, Poppleton, Rawcliffe, Clifton Without, Clifton Moor, Haxby, Wigginton, Skelton, Shipton by Bellingborough—and the market towns of Bedale, Boroughbridge, Easingwold and Thirsk, but the geographical centre is Helperby. A deeply rural farming constituency, it has been deeply damaged by a combination of the fuel escalator and the vehicle excise duty. They have damaged all those working in farming, all who consume farm produce and all who rely on supplies from market town stalls or village shops which, with the resulting extra delivery costs, have been clobbered by a double whammy.
  My farmers took great comfort from the Labour Government's promise that the ban on beef on the bone would be lifted, as would the ban on our beef exports to Europe. The two go hand in glove and until the ban on beef on the bone is lifted, countries such as France and Germany, the United States, South Africa, or any other Commonwealth country will not be minded to take our beef. We need to convince the scientific officers of Scotland and Wales to have the same confidence in the safety of British beef as our English scientific officer has.
  About 30 per cent. of pig production takes place in the county of Yorkshire, and probably 30 per cent. of that is within the Vale of York. I have never before experienced the depth of crisis that exists in the pig farming industry today. It has been particularly clobbered by the uncompetitive conditions which—I accept—the previous Government imposed on it, with the highest animal welfare conditions in the western world, and a ban on sow tethers and stalls imposed seven years before it was imposed on the rest of the EU. The industry is also being damaged by the high pound and cheap imports, which are undercutting it.
  Mr. Gray: My hon. Friend has one third of the nation's pig production in Yorkshire and I probably have one third of the rest of it in Wiltshire; like hers, my farmers are suffering terribly. Is she aware that it costs about £7 more to produce each pig than is achieved at the abattoir, that the industry is currently losing £2 million a week, and that at that rate, by Christmas, the pig industry will be on its knees?
  Miss McIntosh: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for bringing that figure to the Government's attention. Given the little comfort in the Queen's speech for the farming community, I hope that when the Minister replies he will take this opportunity to give some shred of comfort to farmers in the Vale of York.
  Mr. Letwin: Does my hon. Friend agree that if the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has been listening to the debates of the past few weeks in the old Session, he will be aware that the offal disposal costs,

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  which were unfairly imposed on the pig industry as a result of effects in another industry, come to, roughly speaking, the same figure of £7—a pound or two less—to which my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (Mr. Gray) just referred? Is she further aware that the Minister last promised seriously to consider meeting those costs two and a half weeks ago, since when an enormous amount of pig production has already gone out of existence? Will she join me in hoping that he will do something about that tonight?
  Miss McIntosh: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that valid contribution to the debate. I endorse what he says by going a stage further. It was brought to my attention by the National Farmers Union whose president, Ben Gill, is a constituent of mine, that the cost of meat inspection in the United States is met by the federal Government, to the tune of $800 million each year. That makes our farmers less competitive with those of north America. I hope that the Government will go the further mile and reimburse our farmers for those costs.
  Mr. David Heath: Does the hon. Lady recognise that competition with the United States is all one way, in that the Americas and almost all the Commonwealth countries refuse to accept British beef imports? Does she agree that it is time we tackled the Commonwealth beef ban as well as the European beef ban?
  Miss McIntosh: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for drawing attention to a point that I have just made. I am sorry if I did not make it sufficiently clearly. I did say that not just France and Germany, but the United States, South Africa and a host of Commonwealth countries have failed to lift the ban. I linked that with my plea to the Government to lift the ban on beef on the bone.
  Not only is there the effect of the high pound, cheap imports and higher animal welfare conditions in Britain, which acutely affect British pig farmers, there is also the matter of Milk Marque. I have a number of dairy farmers in the Vale of York and they are particularly aggrieved that, at a time when Milk Marque has made a major investment in the Vale of York with its new plant at Dalton industrial estate, they are facing a break-up and a three-way split.
  The question that I want to leave with the Government this afternoon concerns the completely different way in which milk and sugar are treated. British Sugar and Tate&Lyle effectively have a duopoly on sugar production and processing in Britain, one looking after home produce and the other looking after imported produce. I cannot understand why Milk Marque is not able to compete in a similar way within the milk market.
  I declare an interest in Denmark—I am half-Danish, and I follow matters in Denmark with interest. In Denmark and Holland, the equivalents of Milk Marque are allowed to produce and process up to 70 per cent. of milk production—in countries which are directly competing with our farmers. I have yet to be convinced—I can put my farmers' minds at rest—that Milk Marque should be broken up in this way.
  I wish to refer to the Bill on access to the countryside. The impact of such a Bill and the extra responsibilities on rural communities will be difficult to evaluate.
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  The proposal will introduce, effectively—in the Government's words—the right to roam. I believe that that is a misguided policy, which underlines the Government's ignorance of how the countryside works and of the responsibilities of those who farm and work the countryside—responsibilities which they must meet without help from the Government, or in future from the European Union.
  A constituent who lives in north Yorkshire came to see me on Friday of last week. She and her husband are farmers, and of their 13 fields, 11 have footpaths. There is now a dispute over a new footpath which was not in the original plan and which is now a bone of contention between my constituent, a host of neighbours and North Yorkshire county council. This matter has upset my constituent and her neighbours, one of whom is an older lady who lives alone in an isolated part of north Yorkshire. The path would go straight past her front window. One can imagine that, on a dark winter's evening, seeing strange faces at her window would not be good for her constitution.
  My constituent's husband recently received a delivery of wood for 23 stiles. He has been told—before the Bill is introduced—that he must put up those stiles single-handedly. With all the problems that the farming community in the Vale of York faces, I do not understand how farmers are expected to have the time or the resources to put in stiles. Their responsibilities will be added to if the right to roam and the access to the countryside Bill are adopted. The Bill and the right to roam will be intrusive and a threat to security. They will damage the environment, and the cost to the countryside and to the farming community will be great.
  I am delighted to see that the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has resumed his place in the Chamber, and I hope that he can help me with this matter. The right to roam could lead to more footpaths, and to more people roaming around the beautiful countryside of the Vale of York. What would happen if someone was to have an accident on the land of one of my constituents? Would my constituent have to take out compulsory insurance, or are the Government proposing to take responsibility?
  I wish to refer to transport, and particularly to how road charging will impact on those wishing to enter cities. I have had discussions with a number of interested parties, and there seem to be many insurmountable problems as to how the charges will be imposed and policed. Are the Government assuming that there will be a second tier of traffic wardens to monitor parking charges within towns? Are the Government suggesting that there should be a new tier of bureaucrats to see whether people have paid to park in the work place or at home?
  Like other Opposition Members, I wish to make a modest plea on behalf of two villages—Spofforth and Sutton-under-Whitestonecliffe—which more than qualify for a bypass. The Spofforth parish council—with my support—made great representations to North Yorkshire county council. At the moment, there are complicated criteria on security and safety, and—dare I mention it—the unwritten law on the number of deaths there must be each year before a bypass can be built. I hope that the Government will look favourably on stretching the bypass programme where appropriate, and that they will look at making the criteria a little more user-friendly.

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  I wish to make a plea for upgrading the Al from Dishforth to north of Scotch Corner to motorway status. The project was in the roads programme and, I regret to say, was dropped just after the election. I visited the village of Rainton, and met many villagers at the invitation of the parish council. There is a particularly dangerous spur road off the A1 which goes to the constituency of my right hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon (Mr. Curry). Many of the people in Rainton use doctors and other facilities in Ripon, and depend on emergency services coming from Ripon in the event of an accident.
  There have been two fatal accidents in the past six months. However, rather than the road being widened—or a bridge being built over it—it was closed to lay down some red markings. There are no lights yet, and the fatality record proves that we need to revisit the subject of the improvement and upgrading of the A1.
  The Deputy Prime Minister challenged the Opposition on hypothecation. He has given the House a commitment that money raised from congestion charging will go towards improving public transport. But how will that work in a deeply rural, sparsely populated area where many villages may be inaccessible to major routes such as the A1 or A19? How will we benefit from congestion charging in the city of York?
  Will money be spent to improve public services where we really need them, and not just on park and ride—which is contentious among my constituents? We have lost a large segment of the green belt. The Secretary of State seems to have lived up to his commitment to build on the green belt, as the park-and-ride scheme was built on the one remaining part of the Vale of York which was greenbelt. Will the Government explain to my constituents how public transport services in rural north Yorkshire will benefit from the scheme?
  Mr. Letwin: Is my hon. Friend suffering from the illusion that Labour Members have been trying to foster? She does not imagine, does she, that hypothecation means extra money? It means that some money which would otherwise have been described as general expenditure is re-described as having come from a certain tax.
  Miss McIntosh: We have one or two hurdles to overcome, but I accept my hon. Friend's argument that this is not extra money. For example, the money raised from congestion charging and car park charging in the city of York will perhaps be spent on public transport in the city of York. However, it will not be spent on public services generally in the rest of north Yorkshire.
  My concern is that there will be a battle with the Treasury, and my hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset (Mr. Letwin) will be aware that the devil is in the detail. We must ask whether the Treasury will deliver the promise of hypothecation in public transport services. In fact, less money could end up being spent on the services.
  I do not want to pre-empt the outcome of the Cullen inquiry, which will certainly come up with proposals that the House and the Transport Sub-Committee, on which I have the honour to serve, will want to study in great detail, but if the Government are serious about putting safety first they must define clearly the different roles and responsibilities of those involved.
  In the recent hearings to which the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody) referred, the Committee heard a lot of criticism of the privatisation
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  process and an allegation that the rail industry had been fragmented. We face the danger of greater fragmentation under the Secretary of State's safety proposals. The responsibilities of Railtrack, the Health and Safety Executive, the Strategic Rail Authority, the Rail Regulator and any new safety agency must be clear. The public must be assured that the buck stops somewhere. The last thing we want is greater fragmentation.
  Freight grants should be made available to all operators, large and small. At the moment it is probably too easy for a large operator to make an application and more difficult for a smaller one. We should also keep the whole question of freight capacity under review. GNER operates the services between London and Edinburgh through the Vale of York. There is enormous capacity for freight there. Obviously, safety must come first, but I hope that the capacity will be taken up.
  My constituents frequently ask about the promise that was made that Eurostar would operate direct trains from Scotland and the north of England. Passengers from the Vale of York were led to believe that they would be able to board a train at York for Brussels or Paris but that has simply not happened. That has been a great disappointment and I hope that the matter will be kept under review.
  On the privatisation of National Air Traffic Services and the public-private partnership, it is fair to await the Bill to see the details, but the Government must inform us where real control of NATS will lie: with the Government or with the private sector partners. We need an answer this evening.
  I shall now be a bit controversial and perhaps part company with my Front-Bench colleagues. They are aware of my views and we continue to have discussions. I am disappointed that the right hon. Member for Edinburgh, East and Musselburgh (Dr. Strang) is temporarily absent and will not be able to intervene in my support. I believe that we should take air safety as the model for rail safety. The structure of responsibility lying with the airline involved, under the supervision of the Civil Aviation Authority, is a model of how to run safety.
  Civilian flights above 20,000 ft in the European Union would be safer if passengers knew that they would be within the overall responsibility of Eurocontrol. If we compare the fragmentation of European air traffic control with the integration of that of the United States, with a similar geographic area and population, we can see how weak our position will remain until we give Eurocontrol the powers and responsibilities to control flights above 20,000 ft.
  I flew across the European Union for some years and took no comfort from the knowledge that in many instances air traffic controllers were not even working on compatible computers. Sometimes controllers would be operating a computer with one hand and holding a telephone in the other in an attempt to communicate with the next controller down the line. That situation continues, and we need to make some rapid progress.
  I hope that there will be some progress in bilateral negotiations with the United States, especially on reciprocal rights for our carriers to access the internal market of the US—cabotage rights—and on European carriers having equal rights of ownership. There has been painfully little progress so far.

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  We Conservatives want an efficient, reliable and above all safe transport system with a sound infrastructure. We believe that that is best achieved through a reduction in state controls, the input of private enterprise and better management. Those are the criteria against which public sector improvements will be judged and delivered. I am extremely disappointed that the Government's legislative programme is regressive and will not lead to reduced congestion or improved transport services.
  3.27 pm
  Mr. Neil Turner: I am extremely grateful to be able to place on record my tribute to my predecessor, Roger Stott. I am uniquely able to do that because I knew him way back in the late 1960s when we were both in the Labour Party Young Socialists, fighting the good fight against the extremists. I followed him on to both the regional and national committees of that organisation, and it seems that fate has now determined that I should follow him into the House of Commons.
  Roger was elected in 1972 for the neighbouring constituency of Westhoughton. I did not get to renew my acquaintance with him until boundary changes in 1983 put part of his old constituency into the new Wigan constituency and I became, at different times, chairman and secretary of his constituency party. He maintained the long and noble tradition—going back to 1918—of Labour representation from Wigan.
  Roger was a Front Bencher for much of his time in the House and he was well respected by hon. Members of all parties. The tributes that were paid yesterday bore witness to that. He was an assiduous constituency Member and one of the first in my area of Lancashire to set up a well-resourced office to look after his constituents' needs. One of the first people whom he employed there was my right hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Mr. McCartney), now the Minister of State, Cabinet Office.
  Roger had a hinterland, as the new expression has it. He was not only a politician. He had a great interest in cricket and was a member and regular attender at Old Trafford, whenever his parliamentary or constituency duties allowed, as well as at the Oval and Lord's. He was also the mainstay of the all-party group on cricket. His interest even extended to setting up a team in Wigan, which he called the Levellers, which was appropriate, considering that Wigan was the birthplace of Gerrard Winstanley. Just how important the game was to Roger is shown by the fact that he succeeded in inveigling me into playing cricket with him. That says much for his desire to play the game, but not much for his ability as a selector.
  Roger threw himself into his job as an Opposition spokesman on Northern Ireland. He was extremely assiduous in trying to ensure that peace was engendered between the two Northern Ireland communities. He reached his real parliamentary fulfilment at that time. Even when his job no longer directly involved him in Northern Ireland, he continued his search for peace and for ways for the two communities to come together in understanding. The number of people who came from Northern Ireland to pay tribute to him at his funeral, and the realisation that his efforts had been recognised, was a source of pleasure to his family. It is fitting that half his
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  ashes were scattered in Northern Ireland to make sure that his connection with the place would continue. It is equally fitting that his remaining ashes were spread in his Wigan constituency, which he represented so well.
  Roger was a great advocate for Wigan. That was probably one of his easier jobs, because Wigan is a great town with magnificent people. It has an extremely long history: it is a pre-Roman settlement. Hon. Members should not worry that I will go through Wigan's entire history—I shall be brief. Wigan was a Roman town, called Coccium. It was continuously settled, as can be seen from the place names in the surrounding areas and in the town itself, by the native British Anglo-Saxons and the Viking settlers. After the Norman conquest, we had the honour to be one of the four boroughs in the Lancashire area. In 1246—over 750 years ago—we received our charter.
  Lancashire is well known for the many great Catholic families who have lived there throughout its history. When civil war broke out in 1642, Wigan was, from the point of view of this House, on the wrong side, joining with the Catholic king, Charles I. There was suffering in the town after the parliamentary victory in the civil war. But during the Restoration, Charles II noted the town's contribution to the cause of the Crown and gave us our coat of arms, which bears the motto "Ancient and Loyal".
  Coal has been mined in the area for many years, from surface pits and then from drift mines. That natural resource was exploited in the industrial revolution, first by canals, such as the Leeds-Liverpool canal, and the Bridgewater, the world's first commercial canal, and then by the railways, which opened up the town and its products—particularly coal—to the rest of the country.
  Coal, cotton and engineering became the mainstay industries of Wigan in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, as was the case in many other Lancashire towns. In the 1930s, Wigan, like many other areas, was hit by the great depression. However, it allowed George Orwell—real name Eric Blair—to make famous the music hall joke, and our town, by writing about what we would now call the underclass in "The Road to Wigan Pier".
  After the post-war boom of the 1950s and 1960s, the coal and cotton industries declined; that decline became precipitous in the 1980s. Wigan's go-ahead council faced up to the problem by making the creation and saving of jobs its first priority. It went out of its way to attract new industries into the town. Wigan has the Great Universal Stores, the Tidy Britain national group and the Tote. It also has Millikens, an American carpet company which brought to Britain cutting-edge computer technology for the carpet industry. When my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister came to Wigan to support me in my by-election campaign, he came to the Plaxtons bus factory, which was saved by local government money. The company has since expanded and now employs many hundreds of people to produce quality buses.
  The Wigan Borough Partnership, formed by the council, is a partnership between the council, local businesses, the chambers of commerce, chambers of trade and the training and enterprise council. It has been held up by many Ministers, both Conservative and Labour, as a model of how local authorities should work with the private sector in regenerating the local economy for the people.

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  Of course, partnership is not new to Wigan. Way back in the 1950s, the county borough joined with Lancashire county council to bring the Heinz company into Wigan. I say that that was a partnership, because the factory straddles the border between the old county borough and the Lancashire county council—the Orrell urban district, as it was then. That boundary is still there, so half the factory is in the constituency of my neighbour and good friend, the Minister of State, Cabinet Office, my right hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield. I can assure the House, however, that the factory's most famous product—over-indulgence in which could lead to effluence—is made in the part of the factory that is in my right hon. Friend's constituency, not in mine.
  It is a tremendous tribute to the town, its people, its local businesses and the council that unemployment is now just slightly higher than the national average, especially considering the depredations of the 1980s and the terrible changes that were forced on us then. Of course, there are still pockets of urban deprivation and social exclusion. But the Government's working families tax credit, the increases in child benefit, the new deal and the introduction of the minimum wage have all put money into the pockets of ordinary people in Wigan. That money flows straight back into the local economy, increasing employment. The Government's measures are increasing the ability of local people to live decent lives, and also represent a significant boost to the local economy.
  Wigan has moved a long way since receiving its charter in 1246; we still have our history. What about "Uncle Joe's mint balls, that keep you all aglow"? They are known and sung about around the world. And of course we have the famous Wigan rugby league team, probably the most famous team of either code in the world. It is known wherever rugby is played. It was the first rugby league team to be invited to play in the Middlesex sevens. In fact, it is the only one, but that may be because we won it. It was the first rugby league team to play a rugby union team, and the first to play at Twickenham. It has moved on and up. It now has a brand new home, which it shares with Wigan Athletic football club, which stands at the top of the Nationwide second division. I hope that that team will go on to become the champions and move into the first division, as a stepping stone to its premiership ambitions, in which I am sure it will succeed.
  The brand new, joint use, all-seater stadium which seats 25,000 is in a triumvirate of stadiums in the Robin Park area. There is a council-owned, council-run athletic stadium, and a council-owned, council-run sports arena, which contains the northern centres of excellence for tennis and cricket. Hon. Members who helped me in my by-election campaign were very impressed by that collection of sporting facilities in the Robin Park area.
  Wigan is not all urban: countryside surrounds the former pit villages of Crooke, Aspull, Standish and Haigh on the constituency's northern edge. They open out into wonderful countryside. Indeed, only an hour or so's drive from Wigan are north Wales, the Derbyshire dales, the north Yorkshire moors and the magnificent lake district.
  That brings me to one of the reasons why I wanted to speak in this debate. It has always been important to working people to go out to the country. For people who were wage slaves in pits or mills for six days a week, it was important to be free men on Sunday. That is what the right to roam will enshrine in statute—the right of ordinary people to enjoy the countryside. The measures
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  for wildlife protection, which will protect our ancient woodlands and meadows and biodiversity, are also important to ordinary working people. The council and voluntary groups in Wigan have worked hard on those matters, both in the town and in the surrounding areas.
  I welcome the Bill that will continue the process of modernising local government. I am one of the few Members who is also a councillor, and I have been for 25 years. Modernisation is a four-part process. The Government have already begun on best value and an end to crude and universal capping. The further two parts—ethics and the management of local government—will be dealt with in the coming Session.
  On ethics, most fraud in local government is committed by the public against local authorities. Only a very small amount of fraud or corruption is committed by officers or councillors. I do not deny the importance of rooting out such fraud, but it knows no party boundary. We ought to be careful not to throw party political stones as we all live in glass houses in that sense. A clear and consistent code of conduct is important to ensure that no one goes into local government or other public service purely for personal gain.
  On management, some people see the introduction of mayors as a panacea. I am not among them, but I believe mayors can play a role and the community should have the ability to choose its own form of government. Splitting the executive from the rest of the council offers opportunities to local councillors, but there are dangers in that system, and we must be sure to handle change carefully. The form of management chosen by a council must be relevant to local people.
  I am proud to follow Roger Stott into the House of Commons. I am honoured that the people of Wigan chose me as their representative here, and I am proud to support a Labour Government who are carrying out manifesto commitments that will make this country a better place for ordinary people to live and work.
  3.42 pm
  Mr. Oliver Letwin: It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Wigan (Mr. Turner), who spoke with charm and fluency. One is, of course, meant to say that of a maiden speech, but in this case it is true. What is more, the hon. Gentleman sufficiently disagreed with my views about the right to roam to assure him a safe and prosperous future on the Labour Benches. I am sure that we shall hear him speak many times, as much to the point and equally in disagreement with my views.
  Unusually, today's debate joins the environment and agriculture, and I wish to speak about the interstices between those subjects. First, I shall discuss the state of agriculture, particularly in West Dorset. It is a week or two since we held the third of a series of debates on agriculture. In a world in which, we are told, only e-cornmerce, the development of telecommunications and other whizz-bang, high-tech industries move quickly, it is astonishing that the situation in agriculture should have evolved dramatically, to say the least, in the space of just two or three weeks.
  I recall saying in the presence of the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food about three weeks ago that the situation of our pig farmers was dire. For some of them, it is no longer dire: they have gone out of business. I said that some of our smaller and

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  medium-sized dairy farms faced imminent closure; and, in just three weeks, that is no longer true, as some of them are out of business. One of my constituents ran one of the most efficient middle-sized farms—500 acres—in the area. He received various accolades for his business acumen, but he has sold up and left the business.
  The situation is going to change not over the next month or six months but over the next few weeks—and not in a drain but in a cascade. Present policies will lead to the virtual elimination of all but three classes of farm in West Dorset. There will be old family farms where the owners have never borrowed. They hold their quota by purchase, and they have no fixed costs other than the modest cost of a modest existence in a modest house. They will continue until the farmers retire or die, and they will not be succeeded by their children.
  The second class that may survive consists of those farms lucky enough to engage in some industrial process. One farm in my constituency combines the rearing of pigs with dairy production in a highly mechanised modern fashion. It has gone for the upper end of the niche markets for both meat and cheese. In effect, it is a wholesaler of final product, and a farm only in an ancillary sense.
  Thirdly, some land will be farmed by very large contract farmers. Much land, however, will go out of production. My hon. Friends the Members for Vale of York (Miss McIntosh) and for Ludlow (Mr. Gill) will testify to the same patterns of change in their constituencies, whether faster or slower than in mine.
  Miss McIntosh: Does my hon. Friend agree that the decline in farming is being expedited by the stranglehold of bureaucracy and form-filling imposed by the Government? Would it not be a great gesture in the run-up to Christmas if the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food eased off on the regulatory bureaucracy?
  Mr. Letwin: Absolutely. The threat of the integrated pollution prevention and control regulations—mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow—the offal disposal costs, the aggravation of IACS forms and the endless inspections and parade of bureaucracy do nothing to help, and the extra costs imposed are accelerating decline. I hope that the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food will tell us today whether he can do something about offal disposal costs. I persist in believing that he has an absolute right to act. He has not deposited in the House of Commons Library any legal opinion to the contrary. Action would be a welcome help for a pig industry in near-terminal decline.
  We moved from the serious problem of six or nine months ago to the crisis of three months ago in both the dairy and pig industries. We have moved now to impending catastrophe. We shall lose traditional farming in West Dorset and, I suspect, in England.
  I said that I would speak about the interstices of the environment and agriculture. I want to try to explain how someone such as myself—a free trader and a free marketer—can believe it right to try to avert the catastrophe that I have described. We should not do so merely with early retirement schemes, although my farmers would welcome some help in leaving the industry with dignity. It has been months since we first heard from the Government about early retirement schemes, and it would help if some schemes were produced.
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  In addition to early retirement, however, we need subsidies. Now, how can someone like me defend agricultural subsidies? [Interruption.] The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food says that I can do so because I have a farming constituency. I do have such a constituency, but I supported agricultural subsidies when I stood for the seat now occupied by a candidate for the mayorship of London—the hon. Member for Hampstead and Highgate (Ms Jackson). In fact, it is about as far from being an agricultural seat as humankind has yet devised.
  Mr. David Heath: What about Hampstead heath?
  Mr. Letwin: It is rather a long time since Hampstead heath had a cow or a pig on it.
  I am a free marketeer and a free trader, yet I favour agricultural subsidies—and I suspect that anyone who understands the relationships between agriculture and the environment is bound to do the same. Agriculture is not in an ordinary sense an industry, and the countryside is not a park—nor was it given to us in its present form by accident. The shape of our countryside, which is part of the nation's ancient inheritance, evolved because of what human beings have done to it.
  It is conceivable that our countryside could return to its mediaeval origins. Notwithstanding the efforts by the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to study the matter, we now have wild boar in West Dorset.
  Mr. Neil Turner: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman is the bore.
  Mr. Letwin: I may be a bore, but I assure the hon. Gentleman that I am not wild.
  I first brought to MAFF's attention the fact that there were wild boar in West Dorset when I first entered the House two and a half years ago. I put down a harmless question asking whether the Ministry was aware that there was a feral population of wild boar there, and I was told, "No there isn't." Then the Ministry sent down a chap to find out what was going on, he did so, and I asked another question: what would the Ministry do about it? The answer was that there would be another study. We have not yet heard about the study, so nothing has yet happened about the wild boar in West Dorset.
  As I said, I can imagine the whole countryside reverting to its mediaeval origins. There would not only be wild boar all over the place, but lots of forests and, as a result—this will please Labour Members—hunting everywhere. Hunting developed in this country because it was necessary for humankind to defend itself against certain animals.
  However—I hope that this is the more realistic prospect—if we wanted to keep our countryside looking roughly as it does now, but without agriculture, we would have to pay somebody an awful lot to look after it. We could try to persuade landowners to look after it, but they would be disinclined to do so because it would be such a costly exercise. There are probably not enough people in the United Kingdom with enough money to keep up as parkland all the land that is now agricultural.
  We would therefore have to do one of two things. The first option would be to do what I begin to suspect not only the Cabinet Office but the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions have as their

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  ulterior purpose—to allow massive housing development on the land. That is the very plan that was leaked from the Cabinet Office, and it is a perfectly rational plan, which would be entirely economically sustainable. I have not the least doubt that over the next 10 or 15 years Dorset could have not 50,000 new houses, but 500,000.
  I am sure that there would be takers. As the prices for country cottages and holiday lets came down, the inhabitants of the city would flood in, and the landowners would be adequately remunerated by those huge housing developments. By then the landowners would no longer be farmers; the Government's wonderful policies would have produced groups of great landlords. I suspect that that is where the Government are heading. It is a perfectly rational economic prospect, but a perfectly appalling environmental prospect.
  If that happens, landowners will no longer be farmers because they will have been driven out of farming by an unfair regime that allows other people to compete us out of the market, combined with an unwillingness to subsidise sufficiently to enable us to support that regime. If we then wanted to persuade them not to build houses but to keep the parkland looking like parkland, we would have to pay them mightily.
  In fact, if I replay history a little, I can imagine the English countryside being looked after in that way, by stewards and executive agencies set up to pay people to keep the landscape looking the same, but without farming. Then some brilliant person—perhaps the Minister's special adviser—might make a clever suggestion. "Minister," he might say, "We could lessen the subsidy that we have to pay to keep England looking the way it does if we did a spot of farming. We could bring in a bit of income to supplement what we would otherwise have to pay."
  The Minister—it would not be the Minister of Agriculture but the Minister for the Parklands of England, responsible, perhaps, for the executive agency English Parks—would look round and go off and get some expert scientific advice. There is not much of that in MAFF, of course, although there is a great deal of inexpert scientific advice all over the place.
  The advice to the Minister would be that he could indeed save money if the parkland was used productively. Although it might not quite pay for itself, the agriculture would bring in a good bit of the money that would otherwise be spent looking after the place. That is the justification for subsidising agriculture.
  Agriculture is an industry that we need environmentally, and we as a society do not have to pay nearly as much for it as we would have to pay in the long run to keep the place looking as it does now—if that is what we wanted. Subsidy is the social cost that we pay to avoid the plans of the fiends in the Cabinet Office to house over the whole lot.
  Mrs. Dunwoody: I have been paying close attention to the hon. Gentleman's fairy tale, and I am very interested in it. However, he has managed to create the whole scenario without once mentioning the element that so distorts the agricultural industry in this country, with such dramatic results. What is his view of the common agricultural policy? What role does he think it plays?
  Mr. Letwin: The hon. Lady may or may not be surprised to know that my view is that we would be better
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  off if the whole common agricultural policy was scrapped. I have not the slightest doubt, and neither have the farmers in West Dorset, that they would be much better off if they could, by and large, compete in an open market on fair principles and receive subsidies only to the extent that they were unable to compete in that market.
  I believe that the total subsidy required to keep our agriculture going would then be minuscule compared with what we contribute to—and receive back from—the CAP. I am speaking not about the net effect on the United Kingdom economy but about the gross effect on the UK taxpayer. The CAP has brought forth unnecessary production, imposed quotas to deal with that, and then imposed huge administration costs—in short, it has distorted the market so as to maximise the subsidies required to keep that market going.
  I suspect that that opinion is common ground between many Labour Members and many—in fact, almost all—Opposition Members. But none of us knows how to unmake that dreadful machine. [Interruption.] If the Minister knows how, it is surprising that he has not yet done it. I venture to prophesy that by the end of his time as Minister of Agriculture he will join the ranks of the many previous occupants of his post, all of whom failed to do it.
  I would welcome it unreservedly if the whole CAP were scrapped tomorrow. I expect that there would then be far fewer subsidies. I was trying to explain why I need not oppose—indeed, why I must go on supporting—the degree of agricultural subsidy necessary to keep the industry going, on environmental grounds.

  I have been trying to think about the subject a lot in the past few months, and it seems to me that the Government's problem, even with a Minister who really has good intentions towards the industry, is that, essentially, the Government's deepest thinkers are following an entirely different logic. They reckon that agriculture is the equivalent of the coal industry, and that the Labour party should see it in the same way as the Tories saw that industry. They think that it is an industry that has had its time, is kept going by subsidy and needs to be got rid of. If we got rid of it, except for the tiny fraction that is economic, we would, they think, have solved the problem.
  Then, if the leftover land caused problems, it should be used productively by building houses on it.
  The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Nick Brown): I am familiar with the argument that my Government's approach to agriculture is in the same mould as what the Conservatives did to the coal, shipbuilding, steel and heavy engineering industries during the 1980s. I specifically rejected that argument in my speech to the Labour party conference this year, and I got a cheer for doing so. Our approach to agriculture is to address the problems in their real terms and to help people who are going through a difficult time to get through in an economically rational way.
  Mr. Letwin: I take the Minister's words entirely at face value. They are an honest reflection of his own views. However, they do not represent the Government's deepest thinking on the matter. I expect that there will come a time in the not-too-distant future when the Minister will find himself locked in combat with powerful members of the Government.

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  If, as I believe, the Minister's words do not represent the Government's thinking, let me suggest the following steps. First, we need them to take action—not slowly and in the next few months, but in the next few days—to maintain two parts of the agricultural industry that are under the most severe and intense threat—the pig industry and the dairy industry. It is already three weeks since the Minister last said that he would consider such action. We need something to be done now.
  Secondly, we need an absolute statement, not from the Minister but from the Deputy Prime Minister—if not the Prime Minister—that he utterly abjures the idea that has been leaked as the thinking of his own kitchen cabinet: that of trying to solve the problems of the land of this country by housing over it. Thirdly, we need a reconsideration of the status of agriculture as an industry so that it becomes clear that, quite apart from any economics, its value to society makes it worth subsidising. If those three steps were taken, the industry would survive and we would be able to relax a little in the face of what I fear is about to hit not just us and the farmers in my constituency, but the Minister himself.
  4.2 pm
  Mr. Martin Salter: I welcome the Queen's Speech and I am proud to be a Labour Member supporting a Government who are delivering for my constituents. I am pleased to welcome many of the measures contained in yesterday's speech, particularly the proposals to establish the Strategic Rail Authority and to introduce a countryside Bill extending the right to roam. However, I regret the inclusion of plans for the partial privatisation of National Air Traffic Services. Given the loose wording in the Gracious Speech, perhaps it is still possible to change the Government's mind.
  The speech says that a new transport Bill
  "will include measures for National Air Traffic Services to separate safety regulation from operational matters, and deliver major investment in the next generation technology."
  Those are fine objectives that are worthy of our support, but they are entirely achievable without privatising one of our finest public services.
  Like my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody), I want to remind the House that the Paddington train disaster, which had an effect on my constituency, has changed the political landscape significantly. It has reignited concerns about the suitability of privatised safety regimes. Pressing ahead with this public-private partnership now would be insensitive and completely out of step with the public mood.
  A recent poll conducted by The Guardian shows that 73 per cent. of voters are in favour of renationalising large sections of the railway, although that is not a realistic proposition. Other polls indicate that 72 per cent. of the public are against the privatisation of air traffic control. In fact, only 16 per cent. are in favour of it.
  Labour Members have no problems with the separation of safety regulation from operation. We agree that air traffic control should not have to compete with schools and hospitals for scarce public resources. However, these are not the crucial issues. The nub of the argument in the
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  House and in the country is the essential conflict of interest between commercial pressures and the delivery of a public service. It is significant that Richard Branson of Virgin Atlantic and others have already indicated their desire to buy a large stake in National Air Traffic Services. That could represent a serious conflict of interests. The track record of Virgin Trains is hardly one that we would wish to replicate in the skies. Of course we recognise the need for extra investment, but there are other ways in which to achieve that without recourse to privatisation.
  The report of the Select Committee on the Environment, Transport and Regional Affairs offers Ministers other alternatives. The independent, publicly owned corporations in operation in Canada and New Zealand are one such model, as are the trust models. They free air traffic control from the public sector borrowing requirement and allow it to raise capital for future investment. NATS is an extremely attractive proposition for investors, with a guaranteed income stream returning an operating profit of £55 million in 1997. There have been suggestions for the future of the Post Office to give it the necessary commercial freedom. Let me say for the record that if that is good enough for the Post Office—a much-cherished and much-loved public institution—it is good enough for air traffic control.
  If one looks at the argument from the other side—perhaps from a neo-Thatcherite perspective—one finds other question marks over the proposed deal. Until the computer problems at Swanwick are sorted out, one could argue that to dispose of a public asset at a rate far below its eventual sale price is irresponsible and is playing fast and loose with public assets. Perhaps this is not the time even to consider privatisation. We heard about the funding regime for Manchester airport in the exchange between my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister and my right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East and Musselburgh (Dr. Strang), but what worries me and many of my hon. Friends is that this proposal is a gamble.
  At times I am proud that Britain is ahead of other nations and is regarded as innovative, but this is not one of those times. No other country has been down this road and this is the last service that anyone should gamble with. When an aircraft drops out of the sky there are few, if any, survivors and we need to be absolutely sure that the course of action that will be laid before the House is the right one. I really do worry about it.
  The proposal was first made by the previous Conservative Government; it was a politically inspired measure. If political meddling with air traffic control reduces safety standards, the consequences are too appalling to contemplate. It will be of little comfort to our constituents who live under the Heathrow flight path in London, Slough and Reading if we say in years to come that the Government did not listen to the warnings of Labour Back Benchers and, perhaps more importantly, the men and women who have given us the finest, safest and most efficient system in the world.
  It would be arrogant for Ministers to dismiss the views of the people who provide the service. When the pilots through the British Air Line Pilots Association and the air traffic controllers tell us that they are seriously worried that commercial pressures will compromise safety, we should listen to them.

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  The experience of the commercialisation of the Swiss air traffic control service is not good. Staff at the Secretary of State's office have been swamped with e-mails from Swiss air traffic controllers. They were good enough to send me copies. One says:
  "I am an Air Traffic Controller working for an ATS Provider that has been privatised since January 1996.
  I am concerned about the effect privatisation has had on Air Traffic Control.
  In my experience:
  When the company I work for was a Government Department, the overall emphasis was on safety rather than financial considerations.
  With privatisation, I believe that this emphasis has shifted to cost-cutting at every available opportunity—even to the detriment of safety. Also, for a few highly placed people, it has meant significant rewards or bonuses, without coming under any form of scrutiny.
  Privatisation has meant redundancies, a halt in personnel recruitment, outsourcing, numerous restructuring episodes and diminished working conditions. This has led to our current critical situation: a chronic shortage of personnel, staff morale and motivation at an all-time low and a serious lack of confidence in management as well as in our technical and administrative support.
  Having witnessed the transition from a Government Department to a Privatised ATS provider, I believe that:
  The end of large state monopolies means the apparition of 'super monopolies' with little or no transparency.
  The monitoring of safety associated costs and investment in Air Traffic Control, MUST remain a Government responsibility.
  As such, I am completely opposed to the privatisation of NATS."
  That communication is signed by an air traffic controller from Geneva area control centre in Switzerland.
  The NATS public service ethos puts public safety above all else, as it is immune from shareholder pressure to reduce costs. Britain currently has a service regarded as the safest, best and most efficient in the world. I want to keep it that way. As I said earlier, it would be grossly insensitive, after what happened at Paddington, to proceed with undue haste with these proposals.
  Given the large transport agenda before us, I do not understand why we are seeking to divert attention from the need to improve public transport by proposing to privatise a popular public service that returns a profit to the Treasury. That profit amounted to some £40 million last year.
  Mr. Prescott: Will my hon. Friend give way?
  Mr. Salter: In a minute.
  It is a question of trust. I am old fashioned enough to believe that we should keep our promises. In October 1996, seven months before the general election, my right hon. Friend the Member for Oxford, East (Mr. Smith), the present Chief Secretary to the Treasury who was then Opposition transport spokesman, declared that our air was not for sale. In opposition, our policy was to retain full public ownership of NATS. Given that there are viable alternatives to the public-private partnership, why should we break a clear pre-election promise? Why should we press ahead with a discredited Tory proposal that we rightly opposed before 1 May 1997?
  The opposition to the proposal is not confined to the Labour party, or to the people in our country, or to the controllers and the pilots. It is evident in this House of Commons: early-day motion 446 indicated the depth of opposition to the partial privatisation of air traffic control.
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  Labour Members rightly condemn the Conservatives for becoming ever more right wing. We attack their proposals to privatise the national health service, but we are considering a dangerous and discredited Tory plan, on which even the Tories have gone cold. Even those countries with rampant, right-wing regimes that have privatised everything that moves have stopped short of introducing full market forces into air traffic control. Nowhere else has done that: even New Zealand has a state-owned enterprise, and the United States is planning a Government-owned air traffic corporation with private borrowing powers. As I said earlier, the proposal is a gamble that many Labour Members cannot, and will not, support.
  I give way to my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister. [HON. MEMBERS: "He has just left the Chamber.]
  There is no financial pressure to go ahead with the sale of NATS. The Labour Government are no longer constrained by Tory spending limits. The economy and public finances are in good health. The public-private partnership would provide only a one-off capital receipt. It would lose the Treasury a profitable income stream of about £40 million a year.
  Why has the proposal been made now? Are the Government so desperate for a capital receipt of £500 million that they must proceed with such haste? We know that there are others to deal with the future investment requirements of National Air Traffic Services. I have already mentioned the trust model and the independent publicly owned corporation model referred to in the Select Committee report, but there is also the option of a bonds issue. That mechanism is slightly contentious at present, but it funded the investment requirements of the channel tunnel rail link and it is available for National Air Traffic Services.
  I sometimes wonder how we got ourselves into this mess. Perhaps a deal was done somewhere that I missed, or perhaps the proposal is driven by the Treasury. How genuine was the consultation on the various options for the future of National Air Traffic Services? Higher forces than I will have to address those matters, but I urge Ministers to think again. It is still not too late. Listening to Members of this House is a sign not of weakness, but of strength.
  Labour Members will have heard, via their pagers, that we have a little local difficulty in London with regard to mayoral candidates signing up to manifestos. I believe that our candidates should abide by the party's pre-election promises. Before 1997, I and many other Labour Members were electoral candidates and we abided by our pre-election promises. We consulted nationally on our policy over air traffic control. In good faith, we told our constituents—some of whom worked at Heathrow or in the airport industry—that no future Labour Government would ever contemplate the privatisation of air traffic control.
  I intend to keep the solemn pre-election promise that I gave on behalf of my party. I hope that Ministers plan to do the same.
  4.16 pm
  Mr. David Heath: It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Reading, West (Mr. Salter) and I agree with much of what he said. I hope that he re-establishes some sort of dialogue with the Deputy Prime Minister in the near future.

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  Unfortunately, I missed yesterday's Gracious Speech, for the very good reason that I was seeing constituents in Frome market. Although I studied the proposals in detail later, I intend to review them now through the eyes of my constituents. I shall apply the essential Frome market test to the Government's proposals to determine what is relevant to the people in my area.
  That does not mean that I shall turn a blind eye to the wider legislative proposals. I agree with many of them, although some of them—notably the reduction in the access to jury trial—I consider to be retrograde and illiberal. Other proposals, such as those to do with freedom of information, are simply inadequate.
  According to the Frome market test, the Government's proposals fall into three categories. There is the legislation that is proposed on the countryside, and the legislation that, by commission or omission, will have an effect on the countryside. Finally, there is the legislation that did not appear in the Queen's Speech.
  I shall deal first with the legislative proposals for the countryside. We have already had a fair amount of debate on the matter, and I suppose that all hon. Members would agree that there is a need for better environmental legislation. The perennial problem is to balance the interests of the environment with those of a dynamic rural economy. There is also the need to facilitate proper access to the countryside for leisure purposes that should be enjoyed by those who do not have the privilege of living there. Getting that balance right is crucial to the success of the Bill.
  We have argued for some time that there is a need for better protection of wildlife and of sites of special scientific interest. The Deputy Prime Minister has just returned to the Chamber, and I hope that he will say whether the Bill will address the vexed question of interim development orders. They represent a significant problem, in terms of their effect on SSSIs and of the distortions that they make to minerals planning systems across the board.
  Many outstanding interim development orders litter the countryside. As a result, companies often have all the aces in their hands when they deal with planning authorities trying to make sense of the environmental and industrial factors involved in minerals extraction. However, I am pleased that those matters are being addressed.
  When we have argued for better powers of regulation, we have always made it clear that they would be powers of last resort. They would be used to deal with those who do not co-operate and who do not go along with voluntary management arrangements.
  Coupled with the need for better regulation is the need for better and more flexible incentives, so that people who are trying to manage land properly and are sensitive to environmental issues can proceed with their farming businesses. That balance is essential. The same applies to the right to roam. There must be a balance between the interests of those who wish to use the countryside for recreation and those whose livelihoods are bound up in working the countryside to maintain agriculture. In both instances, it is important to develop a right of appeal to an independent arbitrator if there is a dispute. There will be disputes and an unaccountable body should not take the final decision.
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  We also need to consider liability. Successive Governments have failed to tackle the problem of liability for people injured on someone else's land. I remember an absurd situation when I was on the county council. We were told that we had to put lighting on a closed and locked skip site at night because someone might break in, fall into a skip and break an ankle. If we did not have the lighting, the county council could have been liable. That is nonsense. The same could apply to farmed land and could imply liability on the part of the landowner.
  Other measures in the Queen's Speech could have implications for the countryside, such as education. The speech stated that change has been focused on the infant classes. There has been a change and it would be churlish not to recognise that there has been more input into the education of younger children, which has resulted in reduced class sizes, but many problems are still associated with applying rules that were designed on an urban or suburban model to rural situations. Village schools are still threatened. Many such schools do not have flexibility with accommodation, which is a major constraint. I wonder whether the Government have fully recognised the difficulties.
  Last week, I visited Bishop Henderson school in Coleford in my constituency, which has applied two years running for the capital spending that it needs to implement the Government's maximum class size policy. It was turned down last year and is hopeful of success this year. It cannot implement that policy without the classrooms to enable it to happen and at the moment the capital expenditure is not available.
  There is a panoply of crime legislation. Again, the question is whether it will improve the criminal justice system in places, but only at the cost of reducing marginal expenditure on patrols in rural areas. For many years, there has been a diminution in such expenditure. I speak as the former chairman of the Avon and Somerset police authority, which is receiving a report this very day from the chief constable saying that he will have to reduce front-line services to put in place new Government initiatives. We all support those initiatives, such as DNA testing, but the authority does not have the resources to deal with those and to police adequately the country areas of my constituency.
  On transport, we have not yet got right public transport in rural areas and it is possible that we will never do so. It is a major problem. I wonder whether we should look again at the Education Act 1944 and the interplay between school transport, which is a major expenditure for most local authorities, and public transport. There is a difficulty at the moment. Recently, a company that provides services over a wide area of my county has changed hands. One reason for the change was that it has to provide great 50-seater buses for school transport, which are unsuitable for small villages where they are picking up perhaps one or two passengers. The economics are not right and somehow we have to get them right.
  Similarly, we must get rural rail services right. We have main lines that are vastly underused and could be used to provide a better rural rail system. However, I do not detect the forward strategic thinking that will make that happen. For example, Railtrack in its wisdom decided a few months ago to demolish a bridge in my constituency on the main London to Exeter line at Temple Combe. Now we have a single instead of a double rail bed, so that that main line cannot be converted to double use. Frankly, that

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  is absurd and it should not have happened. It is indicative of the fact that Railtrack has still not got the message that we want more investment and more use of our rail services.
  I hesitate to use the term common sense about the congestion policies in the Government's programme because it has been devalued by the Conservative party, but we need common sense in applying anti-congestion policies to rural areas. It would be most foolish to apply taxation to areas where there is no congestion rather than applying the remedy to areas with the problem.
  Most people in rural areas have to use a car. Car ownership is high in rural areas compared with urban areas, and most households have more than one car. They have to because they cannot operate without them. In general, these cars are also among the oldest in the country, so they are not a measure of relative richness, but of relative necessity. Surely we should consider ways in which to ease the burden for essential car users in rural areas, for example, by adopting a huge reduction in or the removal of vehicle excise duty, which would make an enormous difference to people in such areas at a stroke.
  The Queen's Speech mentions a Bill for the Post Office. I will not elaborate on that other than to say that I have serious concerns about the effect of the proposals on sub-post offices in rural areas, which are an essential network. They have such a capacity to provide services in rural areas. At the moment, the income that they have lost from the removal of benefit payments is not being reinstated. All the automation in the world will not do anything about that in the short term. I ask the Government to reconsider that matter.
  I also ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to reconsider his rather surprising announcement last week that he would introduce a punitive regime of daily signing on for people suspected of fraud. How will that work in rural areas? How is someone to sign on 20 or 25 miles away every day and make sense of the social security regime? It is not a sensible measure.
  The main thrust of this debate has been agriculture. I cannot add to all the speeches about the desperate agricultural crisis. Perhaps it is not surprising that the Queen's Speech does not contain primary legislation on agriculture—some would say that more legislation is the last thing that we want, as some of the present secondary legislation is more onerous than it should be.
  The situation has been more than adequately described by hon. Members who have outlined their experiences. The only thing that is keeping many farmers going for even a few weeks and months ahead is the fact that land and quota prices have held up. That will not continue. The fact that land prices have held up is largely due to non-agriculturists buying into the rural economy—buying a farmhouse with land—and not to bare land prices. The moment that these prices start to reduce, the banks will pull the rug and there will be an enormous number of business losses.
  The problems facing the pig industry have been highlighted and are extreme—they could not be more urgent—but the same applies to the dairy and the sheep industries. Yesterday morning, I watched a disposal sale of cattle. A relatively young farmer was selling good stock—black and whites, second or third calving. It was reasonably good-quality stock, but it was fetching less
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  than £300 per cow—£285 perhaps. Four or five years ago, it would have been twice or three times that. It is a desperately miserable position to be in.
  There is no business in the calf rings. On a good day, there may be some bidding for continental calves, but, generally speaking, there is no movement in the calf market. In the sheep pens, no one is bidding for sheep and there are not many there. No one has seen a pig in the market for years. That is the reality.
  There is a knock-on effect for all the industries that depend on agriculture. A couple of livestock hauliers at the market told me of their experiences. I will mention their names because they were kind enough to spend time explaining the situation of their businesses to me: Mr. Butt of Charlton Musgrove and Mr. Conway of Bratton Seymour. As a sign of how bad things have got, one of them said that he had calculated his bad debts in June or July at about £5,000 but that by October or November, they had risen to £28,000. That is the state of agriculture. If it cannot pay the downstream industries, those industries will go. In the case of livestock, that is serious because specialists are involved. Not anyone can drive a livestock lorry. Once those skills have gone, they will never come back. All we are doing is inventing jobs for people overseas.
  I urge the Government to examine what they can do. I would have liked some minor measures in the Queen's Speech to help tackle the agricultural depression. I would have liked legislation to assist the formation of farmers' markets. The Minister of Agriculture knows of the problems with existing market charters. I wanted legislation to establish an agricultural ombudsman so that we could act on the overload of pettifogging bureaucracy that is often applied far too strictly. The Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food is always right and the farmer always wrong even when the matter patently involves a simple mistake that anyone could have made.
  I would have liked measures to deal with fair competition, labelling and the oligopoly of the supermarkets. We have heard today of a new wheeze from Safeway, which has asked for a £20,000 premium on producers. Given the state of the industry, it cannot be right for a supermarket to use its market muscle to bully producers whom it knows can do nothing to withstand it.
  I would have liked changes in the compulsory competitive tendering regime that the Tories introduced. They have been moaning about the fact that local authorities cannot select where they buy their goods from, not realising that it is their legislation that prevents local government from making rational decisions about sourcing goods. It is time that that was tackled.
  Mr. Nick Brown: As the hon. Gentleman knows, I have written to every local authority in England about those matters, in respect of pigs and pork products and, separately, in respect of beef. The Agriculture Ministers in the territorial Departments are writing in similar fashion. It is not right to say that the legislation requires local authorities always to purchase the cheapest. Best value is about more than just price.
  Mr. Heath: I am grateful to the Minister for highlighting what I know he has already done. However, there is a basic difficulty. Best value is not simply a matter of price, but it requires a set of specifications to be issued

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  in advance to which many contracts are linked. It requires authorities to work constantly through a third party over which it has no direct control. There are distinct obstacles to local authorities taking decisions in the interests of their community and local producers. His exhortation is welcome and helpful, but there is still a legislative problem.
  Dr. Alan Whitehead: Does the hon. Gentleman know that the forthcoming local government legislation proposes to give local authorities a power of economic, social and environmental competence for their areas? If that is added to best value, many of his points about local authority action may no longer be an issue.
  Mr. Heath: I am happy to recognise that point, but I will be even happier when it has been tested in court that the general competence to act is matched by a competence within a specific spending bracket that allows local authorities to do as they would wish. I suspect that there is still a problem in that local authorities will be open to challenge under the competitiveness clauses of previous legislation. Unless there is amendment to that in the Bill, as I hope that there will be, there will still be a problem. Perhaps if there is no such amendment, we should try to insert one.
  I would have liked changes to the corporate structure to encourage the development of co-operatives and vertical integration in industries of the sort that, tragically, we did not see with Milk Marque, as a result of the intervention of the Department of Trade and Industry. Such changes would help to ensure a more constructive attitude to making rural businesses work, and work better.
  The sad truth is that none of those things is in the Queen's Speech. There are plenty of measures, but few will impact directly on country areas, and even fewer on the rural economy. I hope that the new Cabinet Committee on rural affairs will produce something substantive so that the next Queen's Speech will contain measures to help the real economy in rural areas. The trouble is that in a year's time, it will be too late for many agricultural businesses, for many businesses that derive their income from agriculture and for many general businesses that will see the agricultural crisis coming home to roost in many of the rural areas that Opposition Members represent.
  4.36 pm
  Mrs. Helen Brinton: I am grateful to be able to speak in this fascinating and important debate. I believe that in the Queen's Speech we saw, for the first time, a Government saying three cheers for the environment. We should definitely value that.
  I particularly welcome two announcements in the Queen's Speech. First, there is the long but eagerly awaited transport Bill, which I hope will include everything that was in the excellent White Paper last summer. I must mention the extremely welcome inclusion of pilots for home zones, which were the subject of my first ten-minute Bill. The Department headed by my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister has proved most accommodating about that small package of measures, which were approved by Members of all parties,
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  apart from the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood). He tried to rubbish them by saying that they concerned only kicking balls through windows and damaging the dahlias. That shows why he sits on the Opposition Benches while the Deputy Prime Minister sits on the Government side.
  Those measures were designed to reverse priority from the motor car to the pedestrian in designated areas, with all sorts of beneficial knock-on effects for residents and the community as a whole. That is not surprising when one considers the larger picture on which the Deputy Prime Minister's Department has been working. It is no less than an attempt to reverse the damage done to our communities by the huge growth in road transport and the decimation of our public transport under far too many years of Conservative Government.
  The Conservatives still prefer to be seen as the friend of that mythical beast, the motorist, as my hon. Friend the Member for Reading, East (Jane Griffiths) eloquently pointed out. They talk as if this creature, the so-called motorist, was not also a responsible member of society—perhaps a parent, at times a pedestrian or even a Member of Parliament.
  I did not know whether to be amazed, saddened or amused by the suggestion of the right hon. Member for Wokingham earlier this year that traffic speeds should be increased rather than decreased. How out of touch with popular opinion can he be? The common sense revolution? I think not. That is of course why he is in opposition while the Deputy Prime Minister is in government.
  Many pioneering measures have already been taken by local councils, so much so that pedestrianised town centres seem to be becoming to be accepted as the sensible norm. Slower speeds in residential areas have already increased pedestrian safety. I am delighted that the new Bill will include measures radically to reduce road congestion and pollution, and will underpin a truly integrated transport strategy which will benefit both town and country residents.
  My second great welcome is for the proposed countryside amenities and conservation Bill which the Minister for the Environment, my right hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, West and Royton (Mr. Meacher), did so much to advance. The subject of new Government action to protect our best wildlife sites has been debated many times in both Houses and received unprecedented support from Members of all parties since it was first raised so well by my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Lepper) last November in his excellent early-day motion. That shows that EDMs can and do work.
  We do not know all the details at present, but the Bill's aims are clear: to increase protection for our wildlife, particularly that in sites of special scientific interest, and to provide greater public access to the countryside, particularly on foot. There are to be measures to prevent damage, increased penalties for those who cause it, and increased agency powers to prosecute for wildlife species offences. As with all major Bills, the devil may well be in the detail. There will be lengthy debate, in which I hope to participate both in the House and in Committee.
  At this point I wish to flag up one concern and that is that there should be sufficient resources to underpin these new measures and, in particular, positive environmental

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  management. Yes, there is a need for tougher penalties and enforcement powers, but that is only for the minority of offenders. We all know that the majority of damage is caused either by neglect by landowners who will not or, more often, cannot maintain their sites, or by modern agribusiness practices which are supported and, indeed, favoured, by current subsidies. It will be no surprise to the House to hear that I am talking about the pernicious common agricultural policy which benefits a small minority of our richer farmers in the south and east.
  Many farmers are desperately eager to adopt more environmentally friendly farming methods. The demand for organic food, as the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, my right hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, East and Wallsend (Mr. Brown), knows, has grown enormously but, scandalously, 70 per cent. of United Kingdom consumption must be imported. Many farmers are eager to subscribe to environmentally friendly support packages, such as countryside stewardship—I think that is what it is called—but there are simply not enough resources to meet demand.
  I understand that shortly there will be a good opportunity to revise the CAP. I hope that the Government will take advantage of it and act to the advantage of our wildlife and of those who are best placed to steward or act as guardians of the sites in a way that is sustainable and is a positive contribution to the local rural economies where such sites are. I am concerned about wildlife protection, but that is because I am concerned about the environment more generally. That means being concerned for those who are best placed to be stewards or guardians of the environment—our farmers.
  Finally, I hope that after much entertaining and positive debate, by this time next year we shall have on the statute book legislation that is truly comprehensive. There is unlikely to be another such major opportunity in the foreseeable future, so we must get it right. Indeed, we will get it right.
  4.44 pm
  Mrs. Ann Cryer: I should like to give a cautious but warm welcome to the aspects of the Queen's Speech for debate today. First, however, I pay tribute to our two new colleagues, my hon. Friends the Members for Hamilton, South (Mr. Tynan) and for Wigan (Mr. Turner). Their maiden speeches were superb and I thoroughly enjoyed them. It is a bonus that we have an additional two regional accents in this place as they are becoming a rarity.
  Earlier in the debate Conservative Members kept dwelling on the subject of the Greater London council and I am not sure why. As I remember it, the GLC was created by the 1970–74 Conservative Government along with the metropolitan county councils, of which one was my own—West Yorkshire. That Government made sure that they brought into those counties the leafier areas around our cities to ensure that at last they could control the areas which contained our major cities. It did not work, so in true democratic style Mrs. Thatcher gave them the chop. They were all brought to a sudden, shuddering end. I am sorry about that as I rather miss our county councils.
  I should also like to pick up on comments made by other Members about the farming community. My constituency is a strange mix of town and country. Hundreds of small hill farmers are having an extremely
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  difficult time. I am well aware of their plight and from time to time I write to the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, my right hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, East and Wallsend (Mr. Brown), and I hope that he can do even more than he already has done to help them.
  I should like to dwell largely on the proposed railway Bill. Following the dreadful Ladbroke Grove crash, there has been an amazing change in the public's perception of public ownership. An element of public ownership in Railtrack assets would have wide support. The support would be forthcoming as there is now genuine anxiety throughout the country about conflicts of interest between the duty to shareholders to provide profits and the duty of care to the travelling public to provide an extremely safe method of travel. However, that is not where we are at today. Today, we are proposing a transport Bill which will have as its main objective the establishment of the Strategic Rail Authority which will be part of a national integrated transport system. The SRA, through its regulatory and franchising roles, will, we hope, have the ability, with the help of the railway inspectorate, to provide a safe environment for rail travellers. I understand that the SRA will have duties to promote rail use, plan strategic development of the network and promote integration between different modes of transport, all of which are needed and which are welcome.
  One of the recommendations of the Select Committee on the Environment, Transport and Regional Affairs when it examined the draft railway Bill was that the SRA should be permitted to dispose of property only when it had consulted all interested parties through an established procedure and was satisfied that it no longer had any potential for railway-related development. It should particularly consider whether the land might be used for the development of rail freight or integrated transport facilities, such as car parks or bus stations. The Select Committee also recommended that the SRA should enjoy a first option to buy any land which Railtrack wishes to sell where it believes that the land may be needed for future operational railway purposes. Those are sound recommendations, particularly given the growth in rail use by passengers and freight, and I trust that they will be incorporated into the part of the Bill concerned with establishing the SRA.
  I am proud to report to hon. Members that I am now the elected president of the Keighley and Worth Valley Railway Preservation Society. I should also declare a minor financial interest, and unlike the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) I am happy to give details without being prompted to do so. I own five £10 shares in the Keighley and Worth Valley Railway Company Ltd. It is a non-profit-making company set up to operate legally the light railway.
  The Select Committee recommended that, with the exception of lines which are used predominantly as a means of public transport, heritage railways should be excluded from the provisions of the Bill. I trust that that will be so under the transport Bill. In evidence to the Environment, Transport and Regional Affairs Committee, the Heritage Railway Association said that its principal concern was to prevent inadvertent inclusion of preserved railways within the scope of general legislation.
  Public transport must be cheap, reliable and safe if we are to move people and freight from cars and lorries to buses and passenger and freight trains. If the transport

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  Bill is to be socially inclusive, it must also enable my constituents, especially those in the two wards of my constituency that are among the most deprived in the country, to travel cheaply and safely, enabling them to visit sports events, sports facilities and relatives in other towns and to take advantage of the wonderful range of museums and art galleries that we in west Yorkshire have in abundance. The elderly and disabled should also be empowered to enjoy those excellent facilities.
  In Keighley, we have our Star buses, which kneel, allowing older people and sufferers from arthritis to enter the bus even when weighed down by shopping. In west Yorkshire, our pensioners have various cheap off-peak travel schemes which are not enjoyed by pensioners in north Yorkshire. I should like the transport Bill to extend those advantages to all areas, so that pensioners can enjoy cheap off-peak travel wherever they live in the United Kingdom, regardless of local authority area.
  Women, especially those with young children, are another group that was badly let down by the previous Government in their rush to deregulate bus services and privatise the rail network. Women often do not have the use of a car; therefore, decent, affordable public transport can make all the difference in the world to the quality of their life. Specifically for them, safety must extend to rail and bus stations and the surrounding areas.
  Improved lighting helps to give confidence. Many of my rail journeys end late at night at Shipley railway station, in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Mr. Leslie). When my fellow passengers have been collected by cars, I am frequently left alone to wait for a taxi, or to walk up to the rank in the town centre. Due to the isolated nature of the station and the low level of light, I frequently find that experience daunting; I cannot be alone in that.
  A further nettle that must be grasped by the SRA is regulation of the railway operating companies that will compel them, without arguments, to strengthen trains at busy times. Of course, packed trains create high profits. Too often, on the Airedale and Wharfedale lines—both largely in my constituency—Northern Spirit fails to add units when it could plan ahead to take account of commuter rush hours or connections with well used trains from or to London. West Yorkshire passenger transport executive has brought pressure to bear on Northern Spirit to end such practices.
  Many of us could give a very long list of moans about things that are going wrong with public transport in our area, but most of us confine our complaints to correspondence with the operating companies, as in our view our role is that not only of a defender of the rights of travellers but as an advocate of public transport, so we try to encourage its use. Commuters will not gladly opt for the rail alternative to their car if they run the risk of sardine-like conditions and cancellations, which exacerbate overcrowding and can mean a late start to the working day or a meeting missed.
  On the more controversial issue of the part-privatisation of National Air Traffic Services, we are told that there will be a separation of service provision from safety regulation, which is welcome. My problem is that I regard air traffic control as entirely about safety—it is its reason to be—and I have difficulty in understanding how the
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  separation can work. However, as always, I am anxious to hear the arguments that will doubtless be made in the debate on the transport Bill.
  I understand that NATS is well equipped, that investment has not been lacking, and that the situation in the most congested UK air space—the south east—compares favourably with similar areas throughout Europe. Having had three especially bad experiences in the summer involving Brussels airport, I am well aware of what and how things can go wrong when—I am only guessing—equipment and staffing levels cannot cope. On each of my Brussels experiences, we were told that two of the three runways were closed due to turbulence over the airport. Closing two of three runways is a radical and unusual remedy. As a delegate to the Council of Europe and a seasoned traveller, I hope, by way of enlightened self-interest, that my right hon. Friend will get that part of the Bill right.
  The Conservatives, with help from their friends in the media, keep suggesting that the Government are at war with the motorist. There is nothing in the outline of the Government's legislative proposals to back up that view by any stretch of the imagination. The motorists known to Conservative Members must be extreme fundamentalists if they consider themselves to be under attack by the Government. They presumably want new motorways until the UK is covered in concrete, believe that side streets are not appropriate places for children to play and think that damage to the environment is not their problem. I have yet to meet such a fundamentalist motorist. The motorists who write and talk to me are not a race apart, they are the same as the rest of us. They have children or grandchildren suffering from asthma, they are concerned about global warming and the future of planet earth and they would prefer not to be motorists if alternatives were in place. I hope and trust that, for all our sakes, the Government's transport legislation will ensure that the alterative of cheap, safe and reliable public transport will be put in place sooner rather than later.
  4.56 pm
  Mr. Owen Paterson: I apologise to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and to Madam Speaker and the House for having absented myself for a little more than an hour and a half in the middle of the debate. I warned Madam Speaker that I had a long-arranged meeting with two gentlemen, one from Somerset and one from Yorkshire. I am grateful for being called.
  It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Members for Peterborough (Mrs. Brinton) and for Keighley (Mrs. Cryer). I entirely endorse the complimentary comments of the hon. Member for Keighley on her new colleague, the hon. Member for Wigan (Mr. Turner), who made a fine maiden speech. I came in during the middle of it. I also endorse the comment of my hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset (Mr. Letwin) that it was a fine speech, but I did not agree with much of it, so I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is destined for a long and successful career on the Labour Benches.
  Yesterday I was in the Gallery watching the Queen deliver her speech. I was shocked that what turns out to be the first page of the speech was entirely devoted to propaganda promoting the supposed achievements of the Government. It would have shown a bit more balance if the Queen had been allowed to state that many of the

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  economic benefits that the Government claim for themselves were put into effect by 18 long, hard years of horrible decisions taken by the previous Conservative Government. It was not right that the dignity of the Queen should have been somewhat bruised by having to make such a propaganda statement. Labour is spending £1,000 million more on government than the Conservatives did. The Government have plenty of press officers, some of whom are now national figures, and they appear to have a camp-bed fixed in the "Today" programme studio. They have plenty of ways to get their message across.
  It was appalling that the Queen had to read out a split infinitive, yet she told us:
  "Education remains my Government's number one priority."
  All those people beavering away in the Cabinet Office could have got their grammar right.
  The comment about education comes pretty sore to those of us from Shropshire. Last week, my hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow (Mr. Gill) successfully winkled out of the Secretary of State for Education and Employment the fact that there is a huge disparity in education funding across the country. The average rate per pupil for primary schools in Shropshire is £2,220, against £3,396 in Southwark. Average spending on secondary pupils in Shropshire is £2,837, against £4,377 in Southwark. I offer my heartiest congratulations to all those working in the education services in Shropshire for coming up with such sterling results, given the extraordinary disparity in funding. I shall come back later to the underfunding of rural services and the aggressive switch from rural areas to the inner cities.
  I should have liked a commitment in the Queen's Speech to reduce the burden on schools. I visited a comprehensive recently where the headmaster was facing 29 different directives. He said that it was impossible to do justice to more than half a dozen. We want fewer burdens on schools and greater freedom.
  I should also like to state my total hostility to the planned introduction of the so-called modernisation project into utility regulation. The process of privatisation should have led to the release from Government interference and into the free market of industries that had for many years been stifled by state control and Government underfunding.
  Let us consider telecommunications. The Labour party said that it was absolutely impossible to privatise British Telecom which, as we all remember, gave a rotten service, with public telephones not working and the installation of a new line taking three weeks. All that has changed. There has been a dramatic increase in telecommunications usage, and more people are employed in the telecommunications industry than were employed prior to privatisation. The last thing we want is renationalisation by the back door through the imposition of a regulatory regime.
  I am delighted to see that the Minister for Housing and Planning is now in the Chamber, having escaped from the campaign of the right hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson)—
  The Minister for Housing and Planning (Mr. Nick Raynsford): I have been here longer than the hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Paterson: The Minister's comment is invidious. I apologised to the Speaker in writing before the debate and I confirmed at the start of my speech that I had had to attend a meeting.
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  I should like to draw the Minister's attention to page 57 of the document "A Fair Deal for Consumers", in which the Government announce their intention of appointing
  "a single cross-utilities panel of perhaps 8-12 members with broad-based expertise amongst its membership in the water, telecommunications, gas and electricity industries."
  Why? The lesson of privatisation is that free markets work. They drive down prices, drive up quality and give choice to the consumer. They should be free of Government interference and subject to less regulation. I can see no advantage in having a cross-utility body, given that the only experience the utilities have in common is that of being under state control for years. They used to cost taxpayers £50 million a week in subsidy, but now contribute £50 million a week to the Exchequer in taxation.
  On the main theme of the debate—transport and country matters—we in Shropshire are not well served by rail services in that there is only one direct link to London each day. Recently, I have held talks with the two main train companies serving the area—Virgin Trains and Central Trains—and Railtrack. There is to be a spectacular increase in investment—for example, Virgin Trains is to invest £1 billion in new tilting trains to Wolverhampton—so I have been trying to secure co-ordination with Central Trains and Railtrack to upgrade the track to Shrewsbury and further into Shropshire.
  It is clear from those discussions that there is a new spirit among railway operators. They will have to live or die by what they provide—Virgin Trains will receive no Government subsidy this year. I hold no brief for the operators, but I am impressed by the way in which they are investing and coping with the enormous jump in demand for their services—the latest figures show an increase of 15 or 16 per cent. They are terrified that the new entrepreneurial spirit and the investment that is being unleashed on our antiquated railway system might be braked, or even stopped, by excessive interference from another regulatory authority.
  Nothing in my discussions indicates that the new Strategic Rail Authority will improve services to Shropshire. We are all elected to make the case for our constituents and to approach on their behalf companies that now have market freedom to invest and make their own decisions. I do not want to have to knock on the door of yet another quango, because quangos do not have the habit of serving the customer.
  Coming from a rural constituency, I am not happy with the promise to give greater access to the countryside. We already have access to 10,000 miles of footpaths. That is a gross infringement of the principle of private property. The countryside is not a playground for the public. Although the Minister shakes his head, the measure is drafted in that spirit and according to urban thinking. There is no demand in the countryside for greater access. I have received few letters about it, but there is great alarm about the measure's impact. I am delighted that the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food is present for the debate.
  The definition of grasslands, which the measure will cover, must be tightly drawn. The laws of trespass will also have to be redefined. I shall cite the case of a farmer who lives not far from me. A network of footpaths crosses

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  his farm and he has a lot of stock. He found that gates on his land were constantly left open. To prevent that, he put chains and a weight on the gates. A fit person could easily have pushed the gates open, and, if they were not latched, they swung back. A couple of weeks later, the farmer found that someone had removed the chains, the gates were again left open and stock was running down the road. That is a genuine problem when farming incomes are down by 75 per cent. The whim of urban lobbyists, who push the Government hard, will create practical problems for farmers in my area.
  Mr. Nick Brown: Agricultural production is exempted from the Bill. The Government believe that rights must be accompanied by responsibilities. That should cover the hon. Gentleman's second point.
  Mr. Paterson: I agree with the Minister that rights and responsibilities go together. However, a tragic incident occurred last year when a lady let her dogs loose in a field of cows and she was killed. The Minister may not know that matadors train on cows because their anatomy—I shall not go into too much detail—allows them to turn faster than bulls. It is not necessarily safe to take dogs into a field of cows. The Bill should make provision for controlling dogs. I am glad to see the Minister nodding.
  The measure should also provide for compensation because those with shoots on their land and others will suffer loss of income. Land that may look like a playground to urban Ministers is a source of income for many farmers.
  Let us consider transport. My constituency includes 98 villages, and 67 per cent. of people in Shropshire drive a private car while 97 per cent. of freight travels in a diesel-powered truck. The Government have done nothing to make movement around Shropshire easier or cheaper. Every business has been penalised and rendered less competitive. That contradicts the second paragraph of the Queen's Speech, which states:
  "My Government's aim is to promote fairness and enterprise".
  The Government make merry about the fact that the Conservatives introduced the fuel escalator. It was introduced at 3 per cent. when only two other countries in western Europe had lower fuel costs than the United Kingdom. We now have startlingly high fuel costs. A fuel distributor in my constituency produced three fuel tankers during the recess and showed how much diesel £3,750 could buy. The tankers were like the three bears—baby tanker took 5,000 litres in the United Kingdom and middle-sized tanker took 10,000 litres in Spain for the same amount of money, while big tanker took an incredible 16,000 litres in Turkey for the same amount of money. Shropshire's businesses are supposed to compete despite there being such a disparity in fuel costs.
  The Government have greatly increased vehicle excise duty, which is £5,750 for a truck of more than 40 tonnes against just over £300 in Portugal and £400 to £500 in France and Spain. I secured an Adjournment debate on that subject this time last year. The Government clearly stated that the swingeing increase in fuel duties was to preserve the environment and to honour the Kyoto demands to reduce 1990 levels of CO2 by 10 per cent. between 2008 and 2012. I have explained until I am blue in the face that the figures do not add up.
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  The Library stated that in 1990 this country generated 159 million tonnes of carbon. Road transport contributed 30 million tonnes and goods vehicles contributed 5 million tonnes, or 16 per cent., of that. It is quite inconceivable, even if the fuel escalator works, that the Government will achieve their carbon targets from the road haulage industry. Of course they are not doing so—almost certainly an increased number of loads are being carried, but they are not being carried by British trucks. British companies have three choices: put up prices, close if they cannot do that, or move overseas.
  Dr. Whitehead: Has the hon. Gentleman read the Government's consultative document on climate change strategy? It suggests a range of measures, one of which concerns transport. Is he not misleading the House if he pretends that transport is the only issue about which the Government are concerned in respect of climate change?
  Mr. Paterson: I certainly did not say that. I said that the justification given in my Adjournment debate last year for putting swingeing extra duties on carbon fuels was the achievement of the Kyoto demand for a reduction in the national quantities of carbon produced. This measure will not achieve any environmental gain at all because the loads have to be carried. As I said earlier, 97 per cent. of the freight in my constituency has to be carried by diesel-powered trucks. If it is not carried by UK-owned trucks, it will be carried by foreign trucks.
  It is now worth while to go on a fuel cruise. Special trips are being run from Dover on which tractor units travel on the ferry to France because fuel is nearly half the price there. There is a huge discrepancy, and we can take a French company to illustrate the point. Mr. Petar Cvetkovic, the managing director of Norbert Dentressangle, said:
  "Our UK based operations and those of all British hauliers are becoming less and less economic. If the Government continues with its fuel Escalator policy, UK industry will become more and more vulnerable to European competition, placing many UK companies and jobs at risk."
  Foreign vehicle trips to the UK have increased by 57 per cent. since 1996, and nearly one in 10 of the heavy trucks on the road is foreign registered and running on cheaper fuel.
  The Government are losing out by, I suggest, between £400 million and £500 million per annum in duty. Last week, we heard a woolly statement from the Chancellor to the effect that he will cut the fuel escalator. He needs to slash it, because road haulage is a strategic industry. I warned a year ago that it would be in dire straits if the Government did not take action, and my warning has sadly come true. The president of the Road Haulage Association in Shropshire went bust. Since then, I have received letters throughout the year from desperate hauliers. I repeat that there is no environmental gain from this measure.
  We made one gain last week, however, when the Chancellor admitted that the measure has nothing whatever to do with the environment but is purely a means of raising revenue. The revenue is not being spent on our roads: £32 billion is being raised from road users, but only £6 billion is being put back. There is a huge backlog of road repairs—in my county, it represents £94 million—yet every car owner pays, on average, £900 more in tax, or fuel duty and vehicle excise duty, every year.

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  People in my area do not have a choice. The last thing that they can afford to lose is their car, and the measures to impose congestion charging will have no impact on traffic. My constituency contains 98 dispersed villages and hamlets, so it will never have a comprehensive public transport system. That is not an option—there will never be the funding for it. My constituents will drive from north Shropshire to, for example, Telford or Newcastle-under-Lyme or Wrexham. They will be paying a tax to another local authority, which may spend that money on improving public transport in its area. There will be absolutely no gain for my constituents who drive back into north Shropshire, because the tax will not be levied there.
  I should be grateful if the Minister would tell me the solution to that problem for those who will drive every day from an area with no congestion charging to their place of work in an area with congestion charging. They will have to travel or risk losing their jobs. They will have to make that journey and park the car, because there is no alternative, but the tax that they are handing over, when they are already being crushed by a £900 a year burden in other duties, will be of no benefit to them. That is a fundamental flaw in the Government's proposals.
  Mr. Nick Brown: Let me answer that point now. Presumably, if the fruits of congestion charging are applied to the easing of congestion, the hon. Gentleman's constituents will be the beneficiaries.
  Mr. Paterson: That is exactly my point. The congestion will not be diminished because people have to drive into that town to get to their place of work. There is a ring of factories all around Telford.
  Mr. Brown: Presumably, other people will not have to drive there.
  Mr. Paterson: I suggest that the majority will still go to those factories by car because there will not be a comprehensive bus or minirail system. That will not happen in a widely dispersed rural area.
  The Government's policy is all stick; there is no carrot. There is a case for road pricing—the way we distribute the use of the asset of our roads is entirely Stalinist. It is the last great element of the British economy run like Gosplan. Once we have paid our vehicle excise duty and insurance and filled up the car with petrol, any of us can go on the roads at any time. There is no marginal cost. We just get hit behind the neck with the wet sandbag of a queue. That is how the market takes effect.
  The Government's proposals contain no hint of a recognition that there is a case for a carrot. In rural areas, people could be released from the burden of vehicle excise duty, so long as they did not move out of their drive-to-work area. If they wanted to drive into Birmingham, I could see a sharp case for increasing the cost of access to the road. [Interruption.] The Minister seems to agree.
  There are cases in the United States where such a scheme has worked. The experiment in Leicester led to charges of £10 before people moved on to public transport. In the area around Puget Sound in north-west America, where about 3 million people live, the drive-to-work rush hour has been stretched by about four
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  hours by staggered road charging. The same is true of the 805 freeway in San Diego, where at certain times of the day the charge is 25 cents a mile and, as traffic builds up, it increases to $4. That is a much more intelligent way of using a pricing mechanism—giving a bonus to those who drive at unfashionable times of day and penalising those who drive at busier times of day. What the Government are proposing is crass. It is a crude tax on those who use cars, and it will not reduce congestion.
  Mr. Raynsford: It will.
  Mr. Paterson: The Minister may nod, but there is no evidence that such a car charge will reduce congestion in an area like mine.
  As for the countryside in general and the kind of area in which I live, I find it incredible that the Government intend to fiddle around with the means of delivering local government, when easily the biggest problem facing rural areas is the massive shift of central Government funds from rural areas to urban areas—£500 million during this Parliament. In my constituency, there is not a single public service that depends on public funds that is adequately funded for the current population.
  There was a march in Whitchurch on Saturday, which I led, in support of the fire service, which is the most underfunded in the UK. It must overspend its standard spending assessment by 46.7 per cent. That is ridiculous. The fire authority in Shropshire gets £8 million from central Government, compared with £22 million in Staffordshire and £22 million in Cheshire. The reason is that the formula for the distribution of central Government funds takes no account of the sparse population of Shropshire.
  Mr. Raynsford: Will the hon. Gentleman reflect on who devised the formula that he criticises?
  Mr. Paterson: That is my next point. The Home Office launched an inquiry with independent consultants to examine the cost of delivering police services in a sparsely populated rural area. It is obvious that there are more police stations and more radio masts, and that communications are difficult. The result showed clearly that, in sparsely populated areas, there was an increase in the cost of delivering that service. I have a letter from the chairman of the West Mercia police authority, who states:
  "In essence therefore the independent study confirms that rural forces have been underfunded for five years, and the study further exemplifies that West Mercia would benefit by £2.3m (or 2.1 per cent.) if the revised sparsity factor was implemented."
  But what do the Government do? They shelve the report. However, underfunding is causing a crisis.
  The Minister for Local Government and the Regions promised Shropshire county council that it would have a three-year run and that it could plan ahead with an increase in its SSA of 6.1 per cent. We have heard that that will be cut to 5.4 per cent. Will the Minister confirm whether that is true? If it is, it will knock £1 million straight out of Shropshire's budget.
  In addition, there is an amazing proposal to build 36,000 new houses in a county where every publicly funded service is stretched. The Queen's Speech states:
  "A Bill will be brought forward to reform local government to make it more innovative and accountable."

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  Who is responsible for the plan to impose 36,000 houses on Shropshire? My hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow and I do not want it; the democratically elected county council does not want it; and the district councils are horrified because they will have to find sites for houses and roads. The very best estimate is that in Shropshire probably 45 per cent. of the sites will be brown field, so there is not a prayer of our getting near the Government's 60 per cent. target of building on brownfield sites.
  The obvious disaster is environmental. The Queen's Speech contains a commitment on sites of special scientific interest. What will be the impact on congestion and traffic of building 36,000 houses for 100,000 people? We all want indigenous growth, and Shropshire has twice the fastest rate of growth in the west midlands, but the best estimate based on that growth is that we require 18,000 houses.
  I raised that point in an intervention on the Deputy Prime Minister, but will the Minister tell me what mechanisms the people of Shropshire can use to stand up against that proposal? What is his reaction to the notion of holding a local referendum on this issue, which crosses all party boundaries? The proposal has nothing to do with accountability; it will be imposed by central planning in Birmingham.
  I am aware that other Members wish to speak, but I want to mention the largest hole in the Queen's Speech—the astonishing lack of a reference to agriculture. Given that agricultural incomes are down 75 per cent., it is incredible that there is no mention of what the Government will do about it. There are things that they can do.
  My hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (Mr. Gray) mentioned the pig industry. Why on earth does this country have higher welfare standards than any other in Europe? The Farmers Guardian reported that 80 per cent. of Dutch pig farmers do not respect the welfare standards in Holland that are much slacker than here. Why do the Government not propose something in respect of labelling so that the British consumer has a choice of which pork products to buy?
  The Government have made complete nonsense of their negotiations on the dairy industry, giving Ireland a huge increase in its milk quota at a time when milk prices in this country are already depressed. The Secretary of State for Trade and Industry made the extraordinary decision to ban Milk Marque from going into processing unless it was broken up.
  I am delighted that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has just arrived in the Chamber, because I want to ask a question. Milk Marque's share of raw milk production has fallen to 38 per cent. The threshold in Europe for a monopoly is 40 per cent., and in the United Kingdom it is 25 per cent. Therefore, why has Express Glanbia, with 30 per cent. of the liquid milk market, and Wiseman's, with 85 per cent. of the Scottish liquid milk market, not been sent for inquiry?
  The biggest problem with the milk industry at present is the suspension of the calf scheme. We thought that we had a token opening of the beef market and, in theory, with that lost the necessity for a calf scheme. The real
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  horror is that we do not have an opening of the beef market, but we have the ending of the calf scheme. Calf production is currently at its peak, with 600,000 calves being produced between now and the spring. However, I have received absolutely no sensible response from the Government to my letters.
  Baroness Hayman suggested in another place that dairy farmers in north Shropshire should produce cross-bred calves. That is a ludicrous suggestion when they are trying to produce quality dairy cows, half of which inevitably will be bull calves. There has to be a solution to the problem, for economic and straightforward humanitarian reasons.
  I am most surprised that there was nothing in the Queen's Speech recognising the huge imposition of regulatory costs, and particularly those on abattoirs. There have been more friendly noises from the Government about an appeal mechanism and a review. There must be an independent authority to which those who are penalised by the Meat Hygiene Service or, in future, the Food Standards Agency, can appeal, and there must be an independent report on the activities of those agencies at the end of the year.
  All in all, I am definitely not an enthusiast for the Queen's Speech. There are extraordinary holes in it, and major problems for the countryside are not addressed. Those issues that are mentioned are meant to pander to the urban lobby.
  5.25 pm
  Mr. Jonathan Shaw: I offer my congratulations to my two hon. Friends who made their maiden speeches today and who are no longer in their seats. Unfortunately I was not in the Chamber to listen to my hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton, South (Mr. Tynan), but I was present to hear my hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Mr. Turner), who made a terrific speech. He made heart-rending remarks about our late colleague, Roger Stott, and no one could doubt his passion for his constituency.
  I shall concentrate on the modernisation of local government and the plans in the Queen's Speech to change voting procedures and introduce flexibility. I have been a local government worker and served on a local authority and I have many friends and family members who work in local government, so I have no doubt that local government needs to change. However, we need to remember the great debt owed to local government workers who provide essential services to our local community. Too often, they are easily denigrated and criticised. It is my experience that the overwhelming majority of local government workers are greatly committed to the public services that they provide. Ever increasing demands are made on them by both political parties when in government.
  The day-to-day pressures faced by local government workers mean that it is not always easy for them to embrace change positively. Several years ago, I was a child protection worker, which involved knocking on doors, after calls had been made, investigating whether children had been abused. Those situations were often very dangerous, and one knocked on a door without knowing what was behind it.
  Against that background, it is difficult to be enthusiastic about bureaucratic structures and changes—they are the last thing on one's mind. One cannot be blamed for just

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  wanting to get on with one's job. That is the same for teachers, planners, housing officers, those responsible for empty housing—my hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Planning knows that that issue is close to my heart—and many others. As we introduce change, therefore, it is vital that we be a little more understanding and be seen to be listening. If we are to make those changes successfully, we need to bring local government workers with us. Local councils will then be more popular with the communities whom they serve and will be more responsive to them. That is exactly what the Government want; indeed, it is what I want.
  There are three, or possibly four, alternatives for structural change, but I think that most councils, particularly district councils, will opt for a leader with a cabinet. Many councils made an early change to that model. My local authority, the Tory-controlled Kent county council, adopted that model and Labour-controlled district councils have done so too. We hear criticisms from Conservative Members, but Conservative-led councils have already embraced that new system. That model is my preference, and it legitimises what has already been happening for several years, in that senior council members effectively form the executive. What is important is that the change will make them more accountable.
  I have served on local authorities for many years and I have sat on too many unnecessary committees, providing little opportunity for councillors, particularly back benchers, seriously to question the chairs of committees or departmental directors. It can be disappointing for someone elected to a local authority, brimming with enthusiasm to serve one's ward and council, to be marooned on the public conveniences sub-committee.
  Research shows that the majority of councillors retiring at the last local elections were overwhelmingly young and had served only one term of office. People want to serve their wards and use their knowledge base to represent the people who elected them. Many such councillors have partners or families and they attend scores of committees, leaving them little time to get out and about in the wards to try to understand their constituents' problems; so it is little wonder that they become frustrated with their often limited role.
  If that role is to be enhanced within the new structures, it is essential that scrutiny committees have the necessary resources, as Select Committees here do. Council members will then be able to develop real interests and pursue matters. For example, a local authority back bencher might be interested in special needs education. At the moment, there may be little opportunity to debate that issue on the education committee, and because there is little time to get out and about in the wards to understand the issue, it will receive little scrutiny in the chamber.
  The new structures offer back benchers the opportunity to get out and about in their wards, to talk to parents and to people in schools, and to really get into a subject such as special educational needs. They will then have the opportunity in a scrutiny committee to put the director and the chair of the education committee through their paces for a couple of hours. In that way they will be able to discover whether the policy matches up to what is happening in the wards. That will stimulate public interest and local councils and it will be far better for local democracy. The new system will also be far more
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  attractive to the opposition if they can question the chair of education at a two-hour public hearing rather than under one small committee item.
  The new proposals will provide better opportunities for all parties and individuals and for local community groups. If they know that the particular issue in which they are interested—whether it relates to disabilities, social services or transport—will be the subject of a two or three-hour scrutiny committee, information can be provided in the same way as it is provided to a Select Committee. Press releases can inform people of what will be discussed, and that will create a more accountable local council than the present often, though not always, clapped-out structure.
  I also welcome the more direct consultation to which councils will have to have regard. There will be a direct impact on staff and we need to ensure that staff have proper training and are made aware of good practice. This is where beacon status plays an important role. Consultation must mean far more than sending out a leaflet with a box to tick.
  I recommend that Front-Bench colleagues look at an exemplary model of good practice and consultation in my constituency—the Snodland partnership. Snodland is a community of 10,000 people in my constituency. We heard Conservative Members rightly trumpeting their areas for having one third of the pig production in the country. In this area of my constituency, we have 10 per cent. of the UK's paper and board manufacturing—some 1.4 million tonnes. Snodland's industries are mainly paper and cement.
  The Snodland partnership has brought together the town council—a Labour council—the borough council and local industries, and £500,000 was put in the pot. The partnership involved the community, which was consulted time and time again. All the people in the town—young and old—were consulted before works began. They knew what was to happen and were asked what they wanted.
  Within a year, we have gained a refurbished high street and a clinic providing advice for teenagers—there is concern about the number of pregnancies in the community. There is a roller-blade park, a community minibus and a millennium museum, which I had the honour of opening a few weeks ago.
  Out of the partnership has arisen a chamber of commerce, which—with local schools—organised the first "Snodland in Bloom". I presented the certificates, which I was pleased to do. All the pictures were put in the library, and I asked whether parents were coming in to look at the pictures. The librarian said yes and that, as a consequence, children were joining the library. There is the benefit of community involvement—a small thing like that can make a real difference to the community. I congratulate all involved, particularly Snodland town council, and those in Tonbridge and Malling.
  I welcome the creation of more flexibility for people to vote. We all—irrespective of political parties—lament low turnouts. Local councillors who have worked hard for their areas can sometimes muster only 15 or 16 per cent, and that is lamentable. However, I am unconvinced that annual elections will increase turnouts. The evidence from the House of Commons research paper shows that there is little difference in turnouts between annual elections and all up in four years.

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  If the third up every year proposal is an attempt to address councils about which the Government are concerned—where there may be a one-party state—it will not do the trick. At the moment, local councils should decide how often they hold elections. There is a danger with the third up every year system in terms of councils with no overall political control, and where there is seemingly no end to that. In such councils, there is drift, and all concerned have one eye on the election. I can think of councils in Kent where there has never been agreement between the political parties about an agenda for the next four years. There is continual infighting and, year on year, everyone has their eye on the election. There is no leadership, and local communities suffer.
  Rolling registers, voting at any polling station and voting by post have been suggested. The Milton Keynes referendum is an excellent example of a turnout in the region of 50 per cent. If we can galvanise public interest, turnout will increase.
  Turnout does not always work to our advantage. My namesake, John Shaw, who was leader of Medway council for many years, lost his seat in 1987. The turnout was higher than usual because it was the day of the general election. He was having a miserable time, as many Labour councillors in the south-east did that night. All night he had canvassed with his team without finding a single Labour vote. He came across a group of houses where he had helped the residents enormously. With confidence, a spring in his step and a poster in his hand, he knocked on the door. The response was, "Councillor Shaw, delighted to see you. We cannot speak highly enough of you. You've done so much for this local community that everyone thinks you're wonderful. What you haven't done for this family isn't worth writing about. But it's time for a change."
  It is time to change local government, so I welcome the Queen's Speech. The legislation will rejuvenate what is sometimes rather tired out. There are many committed people working in local government and we need to give them a far more modern structure in which to do their work.
  5.41 pm
  Mr. Crispin Blunt: I apologise for my absence during part of the debate. I was with the Defence Committee at an informal session with General Sir Michael Jackson, as part of the beginning of our inquiry into Kosovo.
  I commend the hon. Member for Hamilton, South (Mr. Tynan) on his maiden speech. I am afraid that I missed the speech of the hon. Member for Wigan (Mr. Turner) but, like everyone in the House, I mourn the passing of Roger Stott, not least because I hope to inherit his duties as treasurer of the Lords and Commons cricket club. I suspect that there may not be too many candidates in that election. I only hope that I can bowl half as well as he did.
  I share some of the sentiments of the hon. Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Mr. Shaw), especially about the public service performed by local government officers. I take my hat off to him for his work as a child protection officer. All those involved in such duties do an immensely difficult job and he is right to say that we owe them a
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  debt of thanks. I do not agree, however, that there is a need for yet more change in local government. The hon. Gentleman supports a Government who have become expert in reforming bureaucratic structures and imposing new ones.
  I warmly welcomed the Deputy Prime Minister's remarks about the need to protect the quality of life of the citizens whom we all represent. There are great challenges to that quality of life in my constituency and in many others in the south-east. When I was first adopted as the prospective parliamentary candidate for Reigate, it was my perception that the key question for the constituency would be the environment, and how we are to protect and sustain it for future generations.
  The central and most important issue is housing. We are now faced with the appalling prospect of another 1.1 million houses in the south-east by 2016, of which Reigate's share would be 10,000. Even on the Serplan figures, Reigate would have to put up with 6,000 more houses. We are already part of the way through the previous part of this exercise, which began in 1991 when the numbers were laid down.
  Happily, the area along the southern boundary of my constituency is all green belt, but all the green fields are now part of something called the Horley masterplan and the farms will be built on right up to the limit of the green belt. Unsurprisingly, the people who live in the area are deeply unimpressed.
  This question is of central importance. I agree with the article in The Independent today, which says that the Deputy Prime Minister's decision about the Crow report and the regional planning guidance as a whole for south-east England
  "may be the most fateful decision ever taken about the English landscape."
  I agree with the Council for the Protection of Rural England, when it refers to a nightmare future of sprawling development, traffic congestion and urban decay. I agree with the chairman of the environmental services committee of my county council, who describes the plans as "sheer madness". I also agree with the chairman of Buckinghamshire county council that the plans "beggar belief'.
  We face hideous congestion. My hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Soames) referred to "carmageddon", and the word sums up the position. The widening of the M25 has only just been completed, under plans from the previous Government. These days, as soon as the M25 gets snarled up, my constituency knows all about it. The A25 is packed solid; anyone who travels down Reigate hill regularly will understand the problem.
  A large proportion of my constituents commute to London by train. We know that the rail network needs investment—in its capability, quality and capacity. Not least, it needs to be made easier for people to use. Ideas such as creating greater car parking at key transport nodes, such as the railway stations in my constituency and elsewhere, are vital.
  There are other environmental threats to my constituency. The prospect of a second runway at Gatwick airport was formally outlawed under an agreement between Gatwick and the local authority. However, the Government's suspension of planning permission for Crawley to build houses under what might conceivably be

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  the flight path over a second runway gives us great cause for concern that the Government may overturn the legal agreement between Gatwick and its neighbours. I warn the Government that if they do that, there will be enormous opposition from everyone living there. It is enough that Gatwick's capacity will increase from 28 million to 40 million passengers a year. To believe that that part of the world can cope with 80 million passengers a year is to live in cloud cuckoo land.
  My constituency is faced with the prospect of a plant making energy from waste being built next door to a landfill site. That will give Redhill the huge privilege of dealing with all Surrey's domestic waste. That environmental issue has certainly excited the concern of the people whom I represent.
  I receive endless letters about the masts put up by the new telecommunications networks. This is an issue concerning the quality of life—the visual environment is being affected by such things ending up all over the place. People feel that they have no control or influence over the planning process—when plans for the masts arrive, they are objected to, almost nothing happens, and up they go. Imagine my delight, therefore, when the Deputy Prime Minister made quality of life his central theme. The three central measures that the right hon. Gentleman outlined at the beginning of his speech—as in the Queen's Speech—were the modernisation of local government and of the public transport system and the provision of access to the countryside.
  Let us consider modernising local government. The local government organisations and standards Bill is about structure; it is about offering more options regarding the style of local government that my constituents will enjoy. It will provide a directly elected mayor, a cabinet system with a leader, or directly elected mayors with council managers, and future models will allow the Secretary of State to add to that list.
  I say to the Government, "Enough. We have all done it—Conservative and Labour Governments alike." Every time we think there is a problem with local government, we tear it up, peer at the roots and then replant it in a slightly different way. The previous Conservative Government were as responsible for doing that as the Labour Government are now. It is about time we tried to make the system that we have work better. We in this House are vested with our people's sovereignty; this is a representative democracy, and power and responsibility stop here.
  It is up to us to hold the Government to account, but we are in danger of not applying the same principle to local authorities. People understand that they are represented locally by their councillors. It should be up to councils and councillors to choose how to organise their affairs, and we should devolve power to them. Councillors should decide whether they want an elected mayor. The principles that we apply to the House of Commons should apply to local councils so that people may hold councillors directly to account. We should not try to impose yet another new management system from the centre. Let us be serious about devolving authority.
  Government has become hideously complex. Even as a professional politician, I find it difficult to grasp the variety of agencies responsible for carrying out functions for my constituents. The quangocracy has gone mad, and there are chairmen of a vast number of authorities. The hon.
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  Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Mr. Shaw) is nodding at that—like many Members, he appreciates how difficult it is to nail down who is responsible when something goes wrong, or even right. It is hard to find out who we may wish to influence on particular decisions.
  Let me give an example of why, in the interests of our quality of life, we must devolve authority to local government. A tidal wave of houses threatens my constituency and 116 more in the south-east. Local people should be able to choose between economic growth and quality of life. They are in the best position to make those judgments. If they want more jobs and more wealth generation, they will choose a relaxed planning system that will encourage businesses. If, alternatively, they feel that they will be overwhelmed, they will be more restrictive. The power should lie with them.
  As regards the Government's approach to the modernisation of the public transport system, I am astonished by the lessons that they seem to have drawn from the experience of the past 18 years. They say that the Conservatives spent £70 billion on roads, but that congestion increased from 70 cars per mile to 100. They seem to have drawn the conclusion that they do not need to spend money as it clearly does not solve the problem. If we had not spent that money, however, the problem would be infinitely worse. The Government's conclusion is completely wrong.
  In my constituency, for example, the M23-A23 interchange is hopelessly inadequate. It dropped off the roads programme some time during the Conservative period in office, but all that we want is a small road at the junction so that people do not have to make a highly dangerous U-turn. Officers from the Highways Agency have visited the local authority to discuss the scheme, but the agency has only £3 million to spend on schemes for the whole of the south of England. It is hardly surprising that our scheme never got near completion. There is simply not enough money in the roads programme, and someone will die as a result.
  A further quality of life issue relating to roads is noise, which intrudes greatly into people's lives. A section of the M25 runs past some of my constituents' homes. It has been expanded, but expanded in concrete. Local people are desperate for a tarmac surface that would improve their quality of life by reducing the constant noise from the motorway. Again, there is no money.
  As president of Reigate and Redhill rail users association—a wise post to hold given the number of commuters in my constituency—I have found that the privatised rail companies make serious efforts to listen to representations by me and other rail users' representatives.
  Part of the problem that I now see with the Strategic Rail Authority is that the confusion of responsibilities will grow—confusion between the Government, who have significant powers to direct the authority, the authority itself, and the rail companies. It is bad enough at the moment trying to get Railtrack and the operating companies to agree which of them is making the noise when noisy trains disturb my constituents.
  The operating companies say that the problem is duff railway lines, while Railtrack says that the operating companies are running their trains on square wheels—"flats", as they are known in the trade. I am not in a position to judge, but if one goes on at them long enough,

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  they can come to an understanding. Railtrack has started to take responsibility, and I am delighted to say that, having been nagged by me, it has finally promised to lay a newer design of line to reduce the noise and improve the quality of life for my constituents who live nearby.
  As for access to the countryside, for the time being there is still some countryside in my constituency. On Banstead heath the north downs escarpment is stunningly beautiful, and there is also the farmland south of Reigate. However, if we have to find space for 10,000 more houses, or even the Serplan recommendation of about 6,000, that countryside will disappear. If there is one thing that Professor Crow's report shows he does know about, it is the fact that the 60 per cent. target is unsustainable if all those houses are to be built, and at least half of them will have to go on greenfield sites.
  Access to the countryside will not be the answer for my constituents, because they already have access to the beautiful parts of the countryside in the north downs, and the lovely walks on Banstead heath. The question is whether we shall be able to keep any countryside. If not, if my constituents are to have access to any green fields at all, we shall soon have to introduce an "access to people's gardens" Bill. My constituency is about to be swamped with concrete, and I fear that the measures promised in the Queen's Speech will do nothing to save it from that fate.
  5.57 pm
  Dr. Alan Whitehead: I apologise, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for being absent during part of the debate. I was carrying out a long-standing engagement with the Environmental Services Association, about which I shall say more about later. I was delighted to hear in the Queen's Speech of a series of proposed Bills that will have an impact on the environment and the way in which our communities work. The right to roam Bill, the important transport legislation and the new proposals for utilities regulation and water services will all have a substantial impact on quality of life and the way in which our environment works.
  The important unifying factor in the implementation and the consequences of the legislation is local government. I am pleased that, although it is late in the debate, we have now discussed at some length the Government's proposals for local government. They are important not only against the background of the measures in the Queen's Speech but because of our past debates on housing, waste management, economic regeneration and the devolution of power. In all those important areas, it is the tier of government represented by local government that will be responsible for ensuring that results of benefit to our people are achieved.
  One of the most important successes in terms of environmental action following the Rio summit has been the local action carried out under Agenda 21, which has largely been pushed forward by local authorities, with non-governmental organisations as partners.
  The local government Bill mentioned in the Queen's Speech is the second to arise out of the White Paper, and is of central importance, especially in view of the history of local government over the 18 years during which the Conservatives were in power. I find it astonishing that the Conservative party has now declared 1999 to be the year
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  zero. I imagine that anyone who dares mention anything that happened before that date is met with a withering sneer. As far as I know, those in Conservative central office with any knowledge of local government have now been sent to the countryside, where I imagine they will meet leaders of Conservative councils who are enthusiastically implementing the changes that the present Government have made in local government.
  The idea that nothing that happened before is pertinent to what the Conservatives are saying now or is of concern to them represents a profound misunderstanding of local government. Over many years the Conservative party lambasted it unmercifully, passed pettifogging legislation to restrict what it could do, and ridiculed it in the newspapers and in the Chamber, with the result that local government became demoralised and the population felt that it could not do its job satisfactorily. Local government became worried about whether it could deliver on many of the services covered by the proposed legislation.
  Dr. Julian Lewis: I thank the hon. Gentleman, who is my neighbour, for giving way. Did not one reason why local government had a bad reputation lie in the antics of a man who subsequently became the hon. Member for Brent, East (Mr. Livingstone), when he was in command of local government in London? Is not Labour so traumatised by that memory that the Government are doing everything they can to make sure that the hon. Gentleman never again has another senior local government position?
  Dr. Whitehead: I am interested that the hon. Member for New Forest, East (Dr. Lewis) should raise that issue. I find it strange that he confirms again that the previous Government abolished an entire tier of local government simply because they did not like one person. That does not seem to be a responsive attitude towards the future of local government. However, I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman mentioned someone who is standing as mayor of the new London authority, as I wanted to say a word or two about the consequences of ignorance. It seems to me that the Conservative party is profoundly ignorant of the past, the future and the real circumstances of local government and what can best be done to modernise it and make it accountable and in tune with the people.
  I was interested to see the document that was recently produced by the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) on policies for the environment, town and country. The net policy proposed by the Conservatives is that they would strengthen parish councils. I am not sure how that would work. The document also demonstrates their wish to protect the countryside, but to allow unlimited car access and remove from local authorities any ability to organise local communities in such a way that the car does not destroy the lives of people who live in rural areas.
  The ignorance of the Conservative party, however, was best summed up for me today. The hon. Member for New Forest, East will be interested to know that I attended a lunch at which the speaker was Jeffrey Archer, the Conservative candidate for mayor of London. He made a short speech and then offered to take questions. As the lunch had been organised by the Environmental Services Association, one of the questions related to waste management. Mr. Archer was asked whether, if he

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  became mayor, he would do something about the fact that London's waste is dumped all over various parts of the home counties. I wrote down his reply, which was as follows:
  "This is a serious issue. We need dialogue on this. I have already spoken to the leaders of Kent and Surrey county councils and in the next few days I am due to have a meeting with the leaders of Middlesex county council."
  [HON. MEMBERS: "Middlesex?"] Yes, Middlesex. Immediately the image came to me of Mr. Archer turning up to a meeting at Middlesex—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Order. I should remind the hon. Gentleman that he is referring to a Member of the other place and should refer to him accordingly.
  Dr. Whitehead: I apologise, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I should make it clear that I am referring to Lord Archer of Weston-super-Mare.
  When Lord Archer turns up for his meeting at Middlesex county hall just across the river, I fear that he will be somewhat surprised to find that that county council was abolished in the early 1960s. It worries me that a person standing for such high office should know so little of the geography involved.
  I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Mr. Shaw) that the local government legislation proposed in the Queen's Speech will give local authorities the opportunity to be in tune with their communities, and to innovate and move forward on their behalf. Legislation already passed on best value will shortly begin to make a substantial change to the way in which local authorities provide services for their communities. It will also mean that those services will develop in partnership with those communities. They will no longer be dominated by brown envelopes, nor subject to the bottom line that is part of a very limited definition of accountancy.
  The hon. Member for Reigate (Mr. Blunt) was mistaken in his understanding of the history of local government. A key change proposed in the Queen's Speech will affect the one component of local government that has never changed, even during the long period when the Conservatives were lambasting local authorities. The committee system of local government remains unchanged since Victorian times. Can that system develop the necessary innovation and empathy with local communities, or should another approach be adopted?
  I suggest that the idea of local authorities having a leader with a cabinet to replace the interminable procedures involved in a committee system represents a substantial step forward for local understanding and accountability. It is not true that that idea is not popular with local communities, or that it is of no interest to them. I wish to place on record that, in the recent consultation carried out by Southampton city council, more than 7,000 written forms were returned by residents, a majority of whom supported the adoption of a system involving a leader and a cabinet.
  Once explained so that people understand that they represent a serious step forward for local government, the proposals are genuinely popular. I therefore commend that element of the Queen's Speech, as it will give new life and powers to local government.
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  The proposed environmental, social and economic powers for local government will ensure that it will be able to implement the many other proposals in the Queen's Speech. Those measures will make sure that our environment, transport and local communities can move forward with security and safety.
  6.8 pm
  Mr. Tim Yeo: This has been a wide-ranging debate, as one would expect given the breadth of issues covered by the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions, and by the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. It has been notable for two excellent maiden speeches from the hon. Members for Hamilton, South (Mr. Tynan) and for Wigan (Mr. Turner). Both acquitted themselves with distinction, and I know more about their constituencies than ever before.
  Also notable was the speech by my right hon. Friend the Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine), who is not in the Chamber at present. I am sorry that he does not appear more often in the House. His forthright support for the concept of directly elected mayors made me wonder whether it was too late for him to enter the London race—especially as there is some doubt about whether it is necessary to accept all aspects of party policy to do so.
  There have been other high-quality contributions from both sides of the House. I was particularly moved by my hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset (Mr. Letwin), who described the reality facing farmers in his constituency here and now. It was a powerful plea for action, not more words, from the Government. His plea was endorsed by my hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow (Mr. Gill), who also exposed the way in which the Government are depriving rural services in his constituency of funds. My hon. Friend the Member for Vale of York (Miss McIntosh) rightly identified the burden of over-regulation as one of the biggest problems facing farmers.
  I intended to refer to the speeches of some six Labour Members, but as they have not returned to the Chamber I will skip that section of my speech. However, I welcome the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to the debate. We scheduled agriculture as one of the subjects for today's debate to help him. I wanted to give him a chance to remedy the extraordinary omission that many of my hon. Friends have drawn to the attention of the House—the fact that in one of the longest Queen's Speeches ever, which contains more proposals than the previous Queen's Speeches from this Government, agriculture, which is suffering the worst crisis for a generation, does not even merit a reference.
  I welcome my right hon. Friend the Member for Henley back to the Chamber. I am afraid that I have already referred to him, but he will be able to read the reference in Hansard. I am sure that he will enjoy it as much as my colleagues did.
  Labour said that 1999 was to be the year of delivery. What the Government have done is to deliver many farmers into the hands of regulators, bankers, creditors and even liquidators. This evening, the Minister has a chance to fill that gap in the Queen's Speech, to tell the thousands of farmers what he will do to help and to make it clear that Labour has not simply forgotten them.
  The only passage in the Queen's Speech that directly affects agriculture and the countryside is the proposal to introduce the right to roam and overhaul wildlife

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  protection. The only reference in the Prime Minister's speech yesterday was to my comment about illegally fed French livestock, which he seemed to think related to the completely different issue of the French ban on British beef exports. I will deal with both issues later. Whether the right hon. Gentleman is muddled or whether he deliberately plays fast and loose with the truth, the fact is that the more he twists and distorts Tory policy, the more we will tell the truth about Labour policy.
  The proposed countryside access and amenities Bill will deal with two completely unconnected themes. The first is wildlife protection. In principle, we support the need to strengthen existing legislation, although we will need to study the detail of the Bill when it is published. The second is the right to roam. We remain worried about the practical consequences of using the law to increase access to land instead of the voluntary approach, which was making such excellent progress. My hon. Friend the Member for Vale of York emphasised the consequences for her constituents. My fear is that many people will simply not understand where the right to roam begins and ends. The consequences for conservation could be damaging.
  The fight against rural crime, which has already been hit by the Home Secretary's cuts in the number of police, will be made even harder. Furthermore, an opportunity to streamline the existing cumbersome procedures for altering footpaths is being missed. I hope that the Government will accept amendments to remedy that.
  One other issue affects the countryside. My right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) exposed the Government's total failure to protect green fields against excessive development. My hon. Friends the Members for North Shropshire (Mr. Paterson) and for Reigate (Mr. Blunt) referred to that problem and to the disastrous impact that it may be having on their constituencies and the regions around them.
  That failure was further compounded by a leaked Cabinet Office report—mentioned in the thoughtful speech by my hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset—which recommended that prime agricultural land should no longer be preserved for food production, and that it too should be sold off for development. There could scarcely be a starker warning that this Labour Government do not believe that British agriculture has any long-term future. It would cost the Minister and the taxpayer nothing this evening to give Britain's beleaguered farmers a modest morale boost. Let him say that the idea of flogging off prime agricultural land for development is unequivocally rejected.
  Let me turn now directly to agriculture. It is three weeks since the House last debated the subject, and France's illegal ban on imports of British beef remains in force. We keep being told every day that the Government are pursuing the right strategy. Let us review the progress.
  It was almost a year ago, on 22 November 1998, that the Minister first told the House that the ban would be lifted. By 17 December, he was able to say when exports would start. He said:
  "I anticipate that we will be able to start exporting deboned beef by the spring of next year."—[Official Report, 17 December 1998; Vol. 322, c. 1091.]
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  For anyone who wondered how that great achievement had come about, he was later to say:
  "Labour leadership in Europe and our constructive approach towards our European partners has clearly been shown to succeed."—[Official Report, 14 July 1999; Vol. 335, c. 405.]
  In mid July, the Minister obviously thought that his diplomacy was working because he announced to the House a firm date for resumption of beef exports. Spring was a little late this year, because the date was 1 August. In the four months since then, not a single ounce of beef—not a single kilogram, we might say—has been sold to France and Germany. So defective was his diplomacy that he clearly made his statement in July without checking with France that it agreed. Yet he was on notice that France harboured doubts, because France had abstained on the issue when it was discussed at the Agriculture Council in November 1998.
  It is a strange notion of diplomacy that involves not talking to the French Minister. Three weeks ago, as the crisis reached fever pitch, it emerged that the Minister had not even spoken to his French counterpart for more than a week. He told Radio 4 that it would be nonsensical to do so. Perhaps it was just as well, because when he eventually did meet the French Minister two and a half weeks ago, just four days after the European scientific steering committee had unanimously endorsed the safety of British beef, he went to Brussels with all the aces in his hand and still managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. He allowed France to reopen five aspects of the scheme that had already been settled to everyone's satisfaction. He told us that it was only a matter of clarifying a few technicalities and that France would lift its ban on British beef exports by last Thursday. That was a week ago, but that deadline, like every other deadline in this whole story, passed with no lifting of the ban by France and no action by Britain.
  On Monday, the Minister told The Times that he believed that a solution was very, very close and that the two sides had taken a major step forward. Three days later, the position seems to be unchanged. The fear is now that he is preparing to make more concessions for which there is no scientific, legal or political justification, unless, of course, the Prime Minister has ordered him to go on giving in to France, however outrageous its demands.
  The Minister is rather a decent fellow and I like him very much. I have to give him some advice: I do not think that the Prime Minister is any longer on his side. If the Minister allows more conditions to be imposed on the date-based export scheme, which is already so hedged with restrictions that rebuilding exports will inevitably be a long, hard process, and if British beef will be allowed into France only with a special label, his weakness will be exposed still further. At the very time that the row over beef exports has reached its climax, the scandal of contaminated French meat fed on illegal materials has erupted. That scandal is a separate, unrelated issue, but it raises the same principles.
  Four weeks ago, the practice of feeding French livestock human sewage and other illegal material was publicised, and the Minister refused to act. Does anyone believe that if a British farmer was caught feeding British animals with illegal materials the Minister would stand at the Dispatch Box and say that no action was needed? The Minister tried to justify his inaction by saying that he was advised that there was no risk to human health. Even that was a misquotation. The actual advice was that there was no immediate risk to human health.

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  If the Minister is willing to accept that advice when it applies to meat produced in France, why will he not accept the advice of the chief medical officer about meat produced in England? Why at this time of all times, when France is demanding ever more detailed information about British meat, is the Minister so trusting of the French authorities that he has not even obtained their response to the European Commission inspectors' report? Is he afraid to ask for it? I understand that the French sent their answer to the Commission almost three weeks ago. Why has it not been published? If everything in the French cowshed is so tickety-boo, why the secrecy? There is a disgraceful double standard operating here. A Minister who agrees that safe British beef must carry the stigma of a special label before it can go on sale in France while refusing to allow British consumers to know which French meat coming into Britain has been fed with illegal sewage sludge will never enjoy the confidence of British farmers and consumers again.
  Finally, on beef, three weeks ago the Minister claimed:
  "As for a link between the ban on beef on the bone…and the date-based export scheme, no such link exists."
  I am sorry that the Minister is catching the habit of the Prime Minister of making statements that are not true. Just six days earlier, the agriculture counsellor at the French Embassy in London wrote to the Farmers Guardian making it clear that the British ban on beef on the bone was a reason for the French continued ban on British beef exports.
  Mr. Nick Brown: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The hon. Gentleman is saying that I have misled the House, but of course I have done no such thing.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: I hope that we can contain the debate within the normal rules. We do not want excess at this stage.
  Mr. Yeo: Let me make it clear that what I said was that the Minister told the House:
  "As for a link between the ban on beef on the bone…and the date-based export scheme, no such link exists."—[Official Report, 28 October 1999; Vol.336, c. 1119.]
  If the Minister made any assiduous study of the farming press, he would have seen a letter in Farmers Guardian six days earlier in which the agricultural counsellor at the French Embassy made it clear that such a link did exist. Therefore, I believe that the Minister's statement on 28 October in the House was misleading.
  Mr. Brown: That cannot be so. For the avoidance of any doubt, the date-based export scheme is for deboned beef only. No beef on the bone can go through that scheme for exports to the European Union. That is a matter of fact, whatever the opinion of others.
  Mr. Yeo: I am afraid that it is now all too clear why the French Minister runs rings round the British Minister, day in and day out.
  Why will not the Minister ignore the Scottish and Welsh objections? Is not devolution supposed occasionally to involve some differences between what happens in England, in Scotland and in Wales?
  Action on beef was not the only absentee from the Queen's Speech. Pig farmers, another casualty of the present Government's failures, were also totally ignored.
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  My hon. Friends, including my hon. Friend the Member for North Shropshire, mentioned their plight several times. A year ago, in an Opposition-inspired debate, I called for action on labelling to end the practice of describing food as British if it was grown abroad and merely processed here. I called for action to stop retailers selling pigmeat produced under conditions illegal in Britain without telling consumers about it. One year ago, I urged Ministers to make sure that the public sector purchased food that was produced to British standards. It took seven months for the Minister to follow that up.
  On 1 July he told the House:
  "I have on my desk draft letters waiting to go out to the major public authorities—the prisons, the health authorities and local authorities—not via other Departments but directly, urging them to source products of the highest welfare and animal welfare hygiene standards."—[Official Report, 1 July 1999; Vol.334, c. 422.]
  No doubt, on 1 July, the Minister wanted farmers to believe that those letters would shortly be sent; but if they thought that, they would have been wrong. When I questioned the Minister four months later, on 26 October, he could not give a straight answer, and it transpired, incredibly, that those draft letters had remained unsent. They were sent to the authorities only after I had tabled a parliamentary question at the end of the summer recess, and I have little doubt that they would never have been sent if the Conservative Opposition had not actively pursued the matter on behalf of pig farmers.
  In this debate, the Minister was keen enough, in an intervention on the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath), to take credit for having sent those letters. When the Minister allowed a misleading impression to be created by his answer on 1 July, it was the action of a weak man who is once again letting down British agriculture.
  I turn to one more subject on which the Minister has recently again been vocal—the pesticides tax. On 20 October, the Minister told the House:
  "The whole world knows that I am an opponent of a pesticides tax."—[Official Report, 20 October 1999; Vol. 336, c. 457.]
  Perhaps it was not quite the whole world who knew it, because last week, on 9 November, the Government published a document called the pre-Budget report, which, helpfully, has a section on pesticides. Paragraph 6.108 on page 112 says:
  "The Government believes that a tax or charge could be a useful tool…in addressing the environmental impacts of pesticides."
  As far as I know, the Minister is still a member of the Government, so perhaps this evening he will say whether he agrees with the pre-Budget report. It is, after all, an official document. It is not some crazed spin doctor employed by the Chancellor to rubbish his colleagues, although it may be having that effect. Or perhaps the Minister was hoping to be released from his present job and made one of Labour's numerous candidates for London mayor—a position for which he need not support Government policy anyway. If the Minister does support the Chancellor, will he explain what happened between 20 October and 9 November to produce such a dramatic change of view?
  Mr. Letwin: Has my hon. Friend noticed that another Minister may not support the Chancellor? That is the

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  Chancellor, because he totally failed to tell the House anything about that part of the pre-Budget report when he made his statement in the House.
  Mr. Yeo: My hon. Friend makes an important point. This seems to be one of those policies that just appear, without any provenance. One might call it a bastard policy—but perhaps that is an unparliamentary word.
  Was the Minister simply too weak to win his argument with the Treasury, or did he lack the guts to stand up and defend Government policy? If he fails to defend Government policy in the House, when he is surrounded by numerous supporters, what chance can there be that he will defend British interests in Europe and elsewhere when he is surrounded by other Ministers, championing their national interests?
  I am conscious that many other areas of agriculture are causing concern at the moment, but I have tried to focus primarily on the most topical issues. I recognise the urgency of addressing problems of over-regulation—which have been mentioned—including the burgeoning cost of the integrated pollution prevention and control proposals.
  I recognise that dairy farmers, like pig farmers, are being forced out of business week by week and month by month. That process has been accelerated by the Government's unjustified refusal to allow Milk Marque to invest in higher value-added products in processing, without first being broken down into smaller and weaker units. The Minister keeps telling us that he wants farmers to co-operate more for the purposes of marketing, but it is the Government in whom he serves who have denied thousands of dairy farmers the chance to do so. Once again, he has placed British dairy farmers at a disadvantage to their continental counterparts, who are able to take part in such vertical integration.
  At the common agricultural policy reform talks in March, the Prime Minister failed to stop Ireland—a country already four times self-sufficient in dairy products—from gaining an increase in its milk quota next year while British dairy fanners, who are denied by the quota system the chance to serve their own home market, will be further undercut by cheap imports from the Republic of Ireland.
  Let me conclude with three suggestions. As I said at the beginning, I want to be as helpful as possible to the Minister. There are three things that he could announce before 7 o'clock tonight. First, instead of discussing with the French more concessions on the date-based export scheme, which will make it even harder for British beef exports to resume, he should launch a legal action to obtain compensation for British beef farmers for the loss of the exports that they should have been enjoying since 1 August this year.
  Secondly, until France has published its answer to the European Commission inspectors' report about contaminated meat and until that answer has been studied by British scientists to their complete satisfaction, the Minister should impose a precautionary ban to halt the sale of potentially contaminated French meat, which is coming into this country. Thirdly—perhaps the easiest and most overdue measure—the Minister should announce tonight that he is lifting the ban on beef on the bone in England.
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  If the Minister takes those three actions, he will have our full support and will go some way to restoring the damage that has been caused by the failure of the Queen's Speech even to refer to the crisis in agriculture. Without those steps, his credibility will be further damaged. If he fails to act now, instead of finding the solution to farmers' difficulties, he will become part of the problem and I will have to urge the House to oppose the motion.
  6.32 pm
  The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Nick Brown): I am slightly disappointed, because the hon. Member for South Suffolk (Mr. Yeo) usually calls for me to resign, and he has not done so. I am not sure whether it is a softening of his attitude or a display of weakness on his part, but it is a disappointment to me, because it does my credibility with my colleagues and with the farming community no end of good when he makes such calls.
  First, I refer to the two excellent maiden speeches that we have heard today. My hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton, South (Mr. Tynan) referred to his predecessor and wished him well, as I know that the whole House does, in his new and very important responsibilities. My hon. Friend's maiden speech was a well-judged balance between pride in the history and endeavours of his local community and a careful warning of the problems and challenges that face his constituency on child safety and drugs. He also referred to pensioner incomes and the need to reward people who work hard and want to earn a living and keep more of the income that they earn.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Mr. Turner) also made an impressive maiden speech. He, too, paid tribute to his predecessor, who was popular across the House. In particular, he paid tribute to Roger's important role in Anglo-Irish relations, for which I know he will be remembered here and in Ireland. My hon. Friend is clearly getting the hang of being a Labour Member of Parliament. He praised Mr. Blair, as Labour Members of Parliament are encouraged to do—[Hon. Members: "Oh!"] I used to be the Chief Whip. It is no use being surprised at that. My hon. Friend praised Mr. Eric Blair—George Orwell—the author perhaps best known for "The Road to Wigan Pier". He is right to remind us of the tremendous local efforts that have been made in Wigan to tackle structural unemployment and to remind us of the importance of access to the countryside, as it is understood by those who work in urban communities and look to the countryside for recreation.
  We have had a good and wide-ranging debate. I was particularly struck by the opening speech for the Conservatives by the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood). He put the ham into the Woking, having seemingly inherited all the jokes that the Leader of the Opposition discarded. He told us that he was brimming with ideas. We paused and a ripple went round the Government Front Bench as we waited to find out what was going to hit us. A quiet came over the whole House and then the right hon. Gentleman wished us a merry Christmas. I do not want to be left out, so I, too, wish everyone a merry Christmas. The right hon. Gentleman went on to describe his Front-Bench team as young and energetic—a controversial description, but the alternative would be to describe them as old and lazy, which is unfair—even I would not call them old.

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  The right hon. Gentleman lectured us about the downgrading of local democracy—this after a former Conservative Secretary of State for the Environment, the right hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine), boasted of having abolished the GLC because he did not like the election result. It is not possible to downgrade democracy further than that. Two questions were asked, but the right hon. Member for Wokingham did not feel able to answer them, so, for the sake of accuracy, I shall do so. He was asked who introduced the fuel escalator. The answer is, the Conservatives. Then, he was asked who abolished it. The answer is, the Labour Government.
  It came as a revelation to me, but perhaps I do not follow such matters as closely as I should, when the right hon. Gentleman told us of Lord Archer's exciting plan to sell London Underground. He did not say to whom Lord Archer would sell it, even though that is a fair question to ask of matters lying in Lord Archer's hands; nor did the right hon. Gentleman say how much Lord Archer would sell it for, which is an even fairer question. The right hon. Gentleman did not tell us about the impact of the policy on congestion, passenger fares or passenger safety, or what would happen to the pension fund arrangements, a relevant point which was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody).
  We heard the right hon. Member for Henley tell the House that the Labour Government had abolished the unelected Tory hereditary peers in an act of political spite. He failed to appreciate the irony of accusing us of acting out of political spite in that respect when he had boasted that the Thatcher Government had abolished the GLC because he did not like the election results. To hold that view is bad enough, to think it all right to state it in public is even worse, and to see nothing wrong with it even now is worse still.
  The right hon. Gentleman became extremely upset about the Labour party internal arrangements for choosing candidates for public office—not determining the right to stand for public office, but choosing the Labour party candidate. He banged on for so long that he began to sound like a Labour party activist; for a moment, I thought that he was going to join the party, so great was his desire to participate in the process. Then, I looked across at the ranks of the Conservative parliamentary party and noticed that the more moderate and decent wing of the Conservative party was sitting at one end of the Chamber, on his own, and that the 17 other Conservative Members present were huddled behind the hon. Member for South Suffolk (Mr. Yeo), no doubt in an attempt to bask in the hon. Gentleman's reflected glory and stay as far away from the right hon. Member for Henley as they could while still sitting on the Conservative Benches.
  I have a great deal of sympathy with the remarks made by the right hon. Gentleman about local government structures and the way in which the current Government should approach such matters. The speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test (Dr. Whitehead) was on similar lines. Those important matters are not as party political as some people try to make them: we all want structures that work for local government.
  In winding up the debate, it is right that I concentrate on matters directly related to my portfolio. As I have done on many previous occasions, I shall respond specifically to the long list of charges and denunciations thrown at me
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  by the hon. Member for South Suffolk. He always says that he wants to help me, but it never sounds or feels like that. He complains about over-regulation. I am trying to bear down on the regulatory burden in the sector for which I am responsible. We set up working groups to consider priorities that were chosen not only by me, but in consultation with the National Farmers Union.
  The hon. Gentleman complains that the Queen's Speech does not provide for more legislation on agriculture. I am trying to deal with the existing burden. A new approach to the industry, not a new Act of Parliament, is needed to tackle the problems in agriculture. Measures will be forthcoming from the Government this year—for example, announcements will be made about the rural development regulation. Although that does not require immediate primary legislation, it is an important mechanism for reshaping our support for agricultural communities and farm businesses.
  The mechanism is important because it takes us from a system of price support through a system of compensation payments for price cuts to a system—I hope—that decouples support from production and strips into its component parts the theory of multifunctionality that underpins the common agricultural policy. That means that we will spend more public money on paying—defensibly, I believe—for the goods that we wish to purchase and that less money will underpin production, whether we want the product or not. That is an economically rational way forward that is right for our country, our taxpayers and our consumers, and it is right for our farmers as well. There will be fixed-rate payments, which will remain constant while public goods are purchased. They will not be subject to market fluctuations in the same way as the current CAP regime.
  The hon. Gentleman helpfully put to me three ways of avoiding his utter condemnation. His speech contained a full list of complaints, if not the new list, although it did not constitute utter condemnation. He suggested that I could fight for compensation, but that is a matter for the courts. We are considering a private sector trade; it does not take place with the Government. It is for those who suffer losses through the unlawful acts of others to fight to recover them through the courts. People who are unable to demonstrate their loss should be compensated, but that is a matter for the courts, not the Government.
  The hon. Member for South Suffolk also invited me to ban other countries' products on no scientific or professional advice whatever, yet we are complaining about the French Government taking exactly such action. It would be grotesquely foolish for me to do for our country exactly what we are attacking the French for doing for theirs. Remember, the other member states of the European Union are on my side in my handling of the dispute. That includes Germany, which is often cited. The difference between Germany and France is that the Germans are trying to lift their ban while the French have suspended their parliamentary procedures for lifting it. The other 13 member states have lifted their bans. The Commission is on our side—so much so that it has commenced infraction proceedings against France. More than that, when I asked the Commission to do so on an expedited timetable, it did exactly that.
  Mr. Gill: Can the Minister tell the House whether the report in this morning's news bulletin that Germany has

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  decided not to lift the export ban on British beef unless there is country of origin marking is true? If so, what is the Government's reaction?
  Mr. Brown: I did not hear that report but I am happy to explain our position on labelling, which has been consistent throughout. Product labelling is a condition of the date-based export scheme. Companies, such as St. Merryn Meats in Cornwall and the Scottish abattoir that has joined the scheme, want to export clearly labelled products. The Scots prefer "Scotch beef' as the designated term on their product. That will be accompanied by the abattoir number, which is traceable throughout the industry. A range of options is open to St. Merryn Meats, including the Meat and Livestock Commission's assured British meats label. Other clear designations are open to the company.
  Labelling has two purposes. One is to facilitate consumer choice, and the other is to facilitate traceability within the meat sector. In the discussions, I have always been a staunch advocate of both. Labelling is already a condition of the date-based export scheme, as far as it is within the United Kingdom's competence to enforce it. I am sorry that this is a little arcane, and I know that the hon. Member for Ludlow (Mr. Gill) knows about it, but not every hon. Member does.
  Within the European Union, discussions are going on around what are called the beef labelling regulations. The views of the United Kingdom Government and of the German Government are, for all practical purposes, the same. We are supporters of those regulations, and we believe that the product should be labelled and that the consumer should be free to choose.
  We intend to sell our product on the basis of its excellence and the powerful public safeguards that make it one of the safest in the world. There is no intention to sell our products by deceit or deception, as is often alleged by our opponents or those who want to make trouble. It is not true, and I am grateful to the hon. Member for Ludlow for giving me the opportunity to correct that misunderstanding.
  The hon. Member for South Suffolk asks me to lift the beef on the bone ban. My view is exactly the same as it has been since I received the report of the chief medical officer, stating that I could lift the ban on retail sales and on direct sales through catering outlets. I want to lift the ban. The only constraint on my doing so is whether it will be possible to lift it in an orderly way throughout the United Kingdom, which requires the consent of others.
  That is not a recipe for indefinite delay. I said that I hoped to lift the ban before Christmas. That is still my objective. If it is not possible to do so with the consent of others, we will have to consider whether it should be done on a different timetable in different parts of the United Kingdom, but that is not the most desirable way forward, as it is bound to lead to confusion and difficulties in the industry. It would be better to do it together if we can, and it is right to allow a modest delay on our part to try to achieve that outcome.
  Mr. Edward Gamier: I am grateful to the Minister. Who are those others whose consent he requires?
  Mr. Brown: Competence is devolved. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is consulted in these
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  arrangements. That was always the case. There is nothing new in that. The powers that were vested in the Secretary of State for Scotland and in the Secretary of State for Wales are now devolved to the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly. Their chief medical officers are not giving to them the same advice as is being given by the chief medical officer for the United Kingdom.
  Liam Donaldson is appointed as the chief medical officer for the United Kingdom, not for England. The advice that he is giving to the United Kingdom Government is not the same as the advice that the advisers to the other authorities are giving them. To reconcile these matters, we are allowing a little time. I hope that we can lift the ban soon. I certainly think that it is right to lift the ban.
  Mr. Paterson rose—
  Mr. Brown: No, I shall make progress. A range of points was put in the debate. I am sure that the interventions are all intended to be helpful, including that of the hon. Member for North Shropshire (Mr. Paterson), but I hope that hon. Members will forgive me. Time is short, so I shall make progress and deal with some of the other matters that were raised.
  I return to the alternative policy proposed by the Opposition spokesman, the hon. Member for South Suffolk. I am criticised for discussing these matters with the French, although I do not put to one side any of our rights in law. Indeed, the Commission is taking infraction proceedings against France, after we allowed, as we said we would, days but no more than that to try to get the issues resolved by discussion.
  Incidentally, I have not given up hope of getting the issues resolved by dialogue. It is only fair to tell the House that we are very close. For the sake of completeness, I should also tell the House that I have made no concession whatever around the operating arrangements of the date-based export scheme. I could not do that. It would not be right for me even to attempt it, and I would not even attempt it.
  Although it applies specifically in our country, the date-based export scheme is the property of the European Union, which decided on the scheme on a recommendation from the Commission at the Council of Ministers last November. It is not up for renegotiation.
  Nevertheless, the French have sought other assurances on five points that are in the public domain. None of them are fundamental to the date-based export scheme, except for one area of disagreement, on which we cannot give the French what they seek. We are, however, able to give the French guarantees, and it is right to do so for this reason: we want the French to be our customers. If customers ask for guarantees and we are able to give them those guarantees at no extra cost or compromise to ourselves, surely it is right to do so. We will then be able to achieve what must be our core objective, which is to sell them beef. I want the French people to be customers of British beef. That is the purpose of talking to them, discussing with them and not shouting at them and being high handed, which is the alternative approach that is often urged upon me.
  More than that, I am invited to ban French products coming into this country on no scientific or medical basis whatsoever and then defend my subsequent illegal action

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  in probably the same court that the French would be in defending their illegal action against us if it gets that far. It is not sensible to start a trade war over these issues; it is not even proportionate.
  At the beginning of our discussion, some people urged—I notice that they have shut up about it since—that we should use article 36 not as it was intended, but twist it and use it as an excuse. That point is made over and over again and it enters the folklore. So that the whole House can consider the advice that comes to me, I have put it—the best legal advice that is available to me as a Minister—in the Library. Everyone can then consider it. Have the advocates of using article 36 come forward with an alternative opinion? Have they said that the advice that I have received is not well founded in law? No, they have not. They have just moved on and come up with other arguments. Perhaps, if I resigned, the ban would be lifted. Why on earth should the person who is working hard for his country trying to sort the problem out be attacked and criticised?
  The problem is not of the United Kingdom's making. Indeed, it is not even of the French Minister's making. I do not believe that the French saw it coming any more than we did. Having got the problem, surely the sensible thing to do is to try to work it out with people who are our friends, neighbours and significant trading partners. We should do that rather than escalate the quarrel and let the fallout land where it will.
  There are those who say, "Ah, the French have more to lose than Britain, because they export more food products to us than we export to them." That is a very simplistic way of looking at things. If both sides were willing to accept hundreds of thousands of job losses and the millions of pounds worth of commercial losses that would hit both countries if we followed a trade-war policy and tried to enforce it when much of the trade is through third countries in the complexities of what is a single market, that would be ruinous to both countries. There is no point to that, but that ruinous policy is the official policy of the Conservative party.
  Mr. Yeo: The Minister seems to be trying to curry favour with the Prime Minister by following the same example of deliberately distorting the Opposition's position. There are two separate issues. We are dismayed at the fact that the Minister allows the French to continue reopening issues on British beef exports that have been settled to the satisfaction of everyone else.
  However, there is a completely separate problem. Contaminated French meat may be coming in and being sold to British consumers without any label drawing attention to its origin. The Minister has the power, under the treaty of Rome, to impose a ban and there would be nothing illegal about that if he were satisfied that there was a risk to health. I accept that there is a dispute about whether there is a risk to health. He has scientific advice, which says that there is not, but other scientists, including some whom the Government have relied on in the past, say that there is. If he were satisfied, as we are, that there is a risk to human health, such a ban would be entirely legal, would be proportionate to the problem and would be targeted specifically at it. The only person who has advocated a trade war is the Minister through his own one-man boycott of French goods.
  Mr. Brown: It is true that the Government have scientific advice. They have it from their scientific
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  advisers. We carefully checked the advice through the working arrangements within government that will form the new Food Standards Agency—it is not just a matter for my Department, but for the Department of Health as well—and the scientific advice is clear and firm. Again, so that everyone can see what it is, I have placed that advice in the House of Commons Library. I have other scientific and medical advice, but it originates with the hon. Gentleman.
  Each and every one of us can choose from where to take one's advice. Where would hon. Members take their advice from? The Conservative party presided over us getting into this mess in the first place. Under the Conservative Government it was Britain that was isolated in Europe. The Commission thought that we were hardly worth doing business with and despaired of us when it tried to help. Every single country was against us. Just to confirm them in the poor view that they had of us, officials from Britain were sent to frustrate each and every measure under discussion in the EU, even measures that would have been to our advantage had they been carried.
  That is the sort of policy that is being urged upon the British Government, and I am saying that it would be better to try something different which might actually work. The one thing that I can demonstrate to the House and to the country is that the disastrous policies followed by the Conservative Government demonstrably did not work and, worse than that, the Conservative party has managed to refine things now to get us into even more trouble than we were in then.
  Mr. Paterson rose—
  Mr. Brown: I have only a few minutes left and I should try to answer some of the points that have been made in the debate.
  Let me come straight to some of the complaints made by the hon. Member for Ludlow, although we have had them all before. He referred to the ban on sheep spinal cord. That is an important issue and I make no complaint about his raising it. I am considering the matter, but we have clear advice from SEAC that that is a necessary precautionary measure. The Government collectively think that they cannot go against its advice on the matter, although I want to consider it further.
  The hon. Gentleman also asked about the integrated pollution controls, again, perfectly properly. Representations are being made within Government about the charging, but I draw the hon. Gentleman's attention to the fact that existing farmers would not be paying for pigs until 2003 and for poultry until 2004. Before we get there, I hope that I can have some positive and beneficial influence on the charging regime. I am looking hard at those areas that are within my direct competence, including the Meat Hygiene Service, to see what can properly be done on the charging regime, and I hope to have something to say to the House soon. It would be a fair criticism of me—I notice that the hon. Gentleman did not pick on what would be a fair criticism—to say that I should have said something about this already. My response to that is that, while I do not say something about that, the charges remain at the current level rather than being increased, so that at least should be some comfort to the industry.
  I was asked about day-old chicks and welfare rules. No welfare rules apply specifically in those circumstances. There are no new rules on day-old chicks, but if the

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  hon. Gentleman wants to pursue that further with me by correspondence I shall be happy for him to do so. I regret that I was not in the Chamber when he referred to a letter that he sent me to which he has not had a reply, but if he would let me have a copy of that I shall ensure that he has a reply tout de suite, as we who negotiate with the French say.
  The hon. Gentleman and others asked about the pesticides tax. What I said about that is not incompatible with what has been read out. There are advocates of the tax, although I, famously, am not one. The document says "could" not "would", and the Chancellor did not refer to it in his statement earlier. We want a rational way forward on these matters, not the hysteria that comes from the Opposition.
  Debate adjourned.—[Mr. Robert Ainsworth.]
  Debate to be resumed tomorrow.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
  Ordered,
  That Private Members' Bills shall have precedence over government business on 28th January, 4th and 11th February, 3rd, 10th and 24th March, 7th and 14th April, 5th, 12th and 19th May, 9th June and 21st July 2000—[Mr. Robert Ainsworth.]

  SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE
  Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 12 (House not to sit on certain Fridays),
  That the House shall not sit on the following Fridays:
  3rd, 10th and 17th December 1999 and 14th and 21st January, 18th February, 31st March, 16th and 30th June and 14th July 2000.—[Mr. Robert Ainsworth.]
  Question agreed to.

  DELEGATED LEGISLATION
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): With permission, I shall put together the motions relating to delegated legislation.
  Ordered,

  DELEGATED LEGISLATION

    National Institute For Clinical Excellence
    That the National Institute for Clinical Excellence (Amendment) Regulations 1999 (S.I., 1999, No. 2218) be referred to a Standing Committee on Delegated Legislation.
    That the National Institute for Clinical Excellence (Establishment and Constitution) Amendment Order 1999 (S.I., 1999, No. 2219) be referred to a Standing Committee on Delegated Legislation.

    Air Navigation
    That the Air Navigation (Fifth Amendment) Order 1999 (S.I., 1999, No. 2059) be referred to a Standing Committee on Delegated Legislation.—[Mr. Robert Ainsworth.]

  EU Structural Funds
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Robert Ainsworth.]
  7 pm
  Mr. James Cran: Having asked for this debate, I am well aware that every Member of Parliament, local authority and regional development agency will be making representations to the Government about the exclusion of this, that or the next area for the purposes of European funding. Normally, I would not wish to raise this issue in the House. However, I am moved to do so because a considerable wrong is being perpetrated by the Government through the exclusion from objective 2 funding of Withernsea and Hornsea in east Yorkshire.
  The hon. Member for Brigg and Goole (Mr. Cawsey) and I have been co-operating on a non-partisan basis on the issue. I entirely support what he is saying about Goole and he supports what I am saying about Withernsea and Hornsea, simply because they mirror the same circumstances. All we wish is that they be judged on the facts. One is moved to say that, on the basis of the decision taken to exclude those three towns from objective 2 funding, someone somewhere just has not looked at the facts. I wish to outline some of those facts this evening.
  The background has surprised me, in the sense that the whole of the Yorkshire coast was put forward for designation, and a map was prepared by the Department of Trade and Industry. I realise that that map, which was prepared in the summer, probably has no status. Nevertheless, the map indicated that the whole of the Yorkshire coast would be proposed and, we hoped, included for objective 2 funding.
  Imagine our astonishment when the Government's proposals, which hopefully are not set in concrete, were published. Lo and behold, the Yorkshire coast was, by and large, included, but there were one or two quite artificial blips that excluded Hornsea and Withernsea. I am concerned, the hon. Member for Brigg and Goole is concerned and everyone else is concerned.
  The European Commission has indicated to me and to the local authority that it has concerns over the exclusions. It is doubtful whether the Minister or the Government have heard that officially—I understand that. If the Government do not change their mind, the Commission will hopefully make its views known about this matter in the fullness of time.
  The regional development agency—a Government creation with which I have to work and about which I have no complaint—has expressed its disappointment. The Minister will be perfectly well aware what the RDA has said in Yorkshire. If she is not, I will provide the letter.
  The RDA is concerned, if for no other reason than that its economic strategy for 2000–06 identifies as one of the region's great weaknesses what it calls the "peripherality"—I word that I would not use myself—of the East Riding coastal areas. That is merely a recognition that these coastal areas—as is doubtless the case around most of the coast of this country—are in some difficulty, due mainly to the decline of the traditional holiday market.

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  Why am I—along with many other people and organizations—concerned about the exclusion? The decisions that have been taken and published are entirely illogical. The Minister will be well aware that Withernsea has an unemployment problem because of the decline in fishing and the traditional seaside holiday trade. In April 1999, unemployment in Withernsea stood at 15 per cent., while the average for Yorkshire and Humberside was less than 6 per cent and for the United Kingdom less than 5 per cent. There is clearly a problem by that measure alone.
  There is no doubt, by the Government's own standards, that the town exhibits acute economic and social deprivation. The Government's index of local deprivation shows incontrovertibly that the two Withernsea wards are among the 20 per cent. most deprived wards in the whole country, and there is a ward in Brigg and Goole that is worse even than that.
  There is a case to answer that the Government have demonstrably not yet answered, especially when we consider the astonishing fact that the two Withernsea wards are more deprived than any of the 51 wards that the Government proposed for objective 2 status in the north Yorkshire districts of Craven, Hambleton, Harrogate, Richmond and Ryedale. I do not challenge the hon. Members whose constituencies are involved, as they will obviously fight for their constituents, but the Minister must explain why more affluent wards are included for European funding while demonstrably less affluent ones are excluded.
  The Government, the European authorities and everyone else have recognised Withernsea's problems in the past. It qualified for rural development grants, regional selective assistance, employment action zones and a health action zone. I pay tribute to the Government for listening, after an enormous amount of lobbying from me and others, and giving the town a single regeneration budget grant. I am grateful for that, but I fear that its exclusion from European funds may make that an extremely pyrrhic victory.
  European funding is essential to match domestic funding. Without the European funding, the SRB grant is almost worthless. I am sure that that was not the Government's original intention. I was grateful to be invited by the hon. Member for Brigg and Goole to a meeting with the Minister for Trade, who said that he understood the problems and might be willing to consider them. I hope that the Government are so willing.
  The other coastal towns with SRB funding—Scarborough, Filey and Bridlington—have been included in the Government's proposals. Why has not Withernsea? The town has not gone to sleep. There are a lot of hard-working people there who need a little help and a bit of wind in their sails. There is an active partnership and people are looking for regeneration solutions; in my opinion, they have found them. If they are excluded, I fear that considerable damage will be done to those people's confidence. The Holderness Gazette said yesterday that if we do not receive the funding, we shall be back to raising money through tombolas, raffles and coffee mornings. I regret that that is true.
  I fear that Hornsea may simply become another Withernsea, another declining former seaside holiday town with no great future. Hornsea has not yet declined as far, but I fear that it will. It suffers all the same
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  problems—lack of access, lack of transport and lack of employment opportunities following the loss of fishing and traditional seaside holiday jobs. The town has been recognised in the past for all sorts of funding, and one must ask why it has not been so recognised this time. Any funding from any source will require matched funding. Without European funding, there probably will not be enough money for the town.
  Hornsea has an active regeneration organisation that needs some support. I agree with Mr. W. E. Underwood, the president of the Let's Go Hornsea regeneration group, who wrote:
  "There has been and still is great concern that promises of regeneration in the town have been left in abeyance due to lack of funding. Our plans for the regeneration of the Town Centre"—
  he lists a series of projects that could have been funded—are simply awaiting funding. He goes on:
  "These Schemes are not just improvement schemes, they are essential to the whole Social and Economic structure of Hornsea and its surrounding villages. Without some assistance now we are heading for real problems."
  I agree wholeheartedly with Mr. Underwood. I fear that if Hornsea's potential problems are not recognised, it will go the way of Withernsea.
  I should like to offer the Minister a possible solution. She may already have seen it for herself, but I should be glad to make all the necessary information available to her. Mr. Alan Menzies, head of economic development for East Riding council, wrote to the regional director of the Government office for the regions for Yorkshire and the Humber on 17 November. The crux of his letter was the population criteria that the Government must meet.
  The current populations of wards in Yorkshire and Humberside are lower than shown in the figures used by the Government in their submission to the European Commission. The Government used figures from the 1991 census. Recently published evidence from the university of Oxford shows that there was a population decline in many proposed wards from 1991 to 1998. North-east Lincolnshire, Kingston upon Hull and Scarborough have had reductions amounting to 10,277 souls. The Minister will quickly see that if those figures are correct, the two wards in Withernsea and the one in Hornsea could be included without breaching European Commission population ceilings. Outward migration from other parts of the region would almost certainly give her the head room that she needs to include those wards.
  I know that I have the support of the hon. Member for Brigg and Goole in asking not for a commitment to include those towns for objective 2 status—although if the Minister is prepared to give one this evening I would be delighted—but that, in the light of the deprivation figures that I have outlined, the Minister should reconsider the decisions that have been taken.
  Those decisions are illogical and fly in the face of the facts as we understand them, and are therefore wholly wrong. I hope that the Minister will tell me that she will reconsider a decision that I think would cause the two towns to decline in a manner that none of us would want.
  7.15 pm
  The Minister for Small Business and E-Commerce (Ms Patricia Hewitt): I begin by congratulating the hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr. Cran) on securing the debate. I represent a constituency in the east

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  midlands that includes some extremely deprived and disadvantaged communities. One of my wards is on the index that the hon. Gentleman cited, and is one of the most deprived in the east midlands, so I understand the depth of feeling with which he spoke, and the enormous difficulties faced by people in such communities. I respect the way in which the hon. Gentleman has put his case on behalf of his constituents—a case that my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Mr. Cawsey) has also put to me.
  I am grateful to the hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness for recognising the considerable efforts that the Government are making to combat social exclusion, and to invest in disadvantaged areas and in the future of communities that have been left behind by industrial and economic change.
  As the hon. Gentleman knows, we submitted our proposals for objective 2 coverage for the years 2000-06 on Friday 8 October, and they are currently being considered by the Commission. Before I deal with the detail of those proposals, and the specific issues that he has raised, it would be helpful if I said a little about the bigger picture.
  At the Berlin summit in March, my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer secured an outstanding result for this country. The objective 2 aid that we secured will be worth some £2.5 billion over the next seven years, with an additional £0.5 billion for transitional relief. That makes £3 billion for objective 2 alone.
  On top of that, we have the £3 billion already announced for our four objective 1 areas. Including the European social fund and objective 3 funding, we have been awarded more than £10 billion in structural funding. Indeed, there is more still to be announced in relation to various community initiatives. That money, rightly, will go to some of the neediest parts of our country and help to ensure that all parts of it benefit from our increased economic prosperity and the growth of the number of people in work.
  In such a debate, the fact needs to be registered that, at a time when our economic performance was improving dramatically, the number of people out of work throughout the country was falling rapidly, and our prospects for receiving European Union structural funds were reduced—all factors that might have pointed to a cut in regional aid from the structural funds—we secured a safety net to cushion the reduction in numbers and population coverage proposed by the Commission. We secured more investment—more money from the structural funds than we had had in the past. It is in the context of that extremely good result that this debate takes place.
  Within that very good result there are, I am afraid, hard choices to be made. It is of the essence of structural funds and investment in disadvantaged areas that not everybody can qualify. So the regional development agencies, the regional partnerships and the local partnership faced tough choices about the priorities that they put to us, just as we were faced with difficult decisions about the proposals that we put to the Commission.
  The hon. Gentleman asked why Withernsea had not been included. As he acknowledged, parts of East Riding will be eligible for tier 2 support. Many rural wards will
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  also be eligible for the new enterprise scheme for small and medium enterprises. As he rightly said, significant funds have been made available through the single regeneration budget to help to tackle the specific problems in Withernsea. With respect, however, it is wrong to discount the impact of single regeneration budget funding, even in the absence of European structural fund money. Three areas in my constituency now benefit from single regeneration budget funding; none of them qualify for objective 2, let alone objective 1 funding from the European Union. There is no doubt that it is possible to secure real and lasting improvements in social and economic regeneration in disadvantaged areas through the single regeneration budget—and indeed through our new deal for communities—without having the additional benefits of objective 2 or objective 1 funding.
  Looking at the proposals for Yorkshire and Humberside, we have proposed population coverage of more than 1.5 million people for objective 2 funding. In addition, 1.3 million people in south Yorkshire will be covered by objective 1 funding. That is comparable to the existing coverage of 2.7 million people under objectives 2 and 5b.
  To fall within that objective 2 funding, we have proposed the whole of Hull and Richmondshire, parts of Bradford, Leeds, Wakefield, Kirklees, north-east Lincolnshire, the East Riding, Craven, Hambleton, Harrogate, Ryedale and Scarborough. North Lincolnshire will also receive transitional funding.
  The difficulty is deciding in great detail which areas are included and which are not, within the overall population ceiling. I shall return to the statistics on population coverage in just a moment.
  Under the new European regulation, objective 2 funding is divided between four strands: industrial, rural, urban and fisheries. The Commission has given us guidance on the indicative breakdown for each strand. We had to secure a fair and balanced distribution across the regions and across the different strands. At an earlier stage in the regional discussions, there was a suggestion that Withernsea should be included within the fisheries strand as part of a bigger area; but after regional discussions, it was not included in the fisheries strand covering the specific coastal areas to which the hon. Gentleman referred.
  We also had to look at the index of local deprivation and the best possible consistent statistical information that we could get across all the proposed areas to help us decide, regionally and nationally, which areas should be put forward. Using the index of local deprivation for the urban strand of objective 2, the criterion is the worst 10 per cent., not the worst 20 per cent.—in other words, some areas are even worse off than Withernsea.
  The hon. Gentleman also referred to an earlier map and a leaked document that deals with only one of a series of possible options, and which therefore has no status in the debate. I apologise, but I have not seen the letter to which he referred suggesting that population levels have changed, and that it would be possible to add Withernsea and Goole to our proposals.
  The difficulty is that the 1991 wards have been re-rated to take account of 1996 populations. The Commission is working with 1996 data to assess our population ceiling. In any case, we must put forward a case based on data that are consistent across all our objective 2 areas.

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  To fiddle with the data in one area would not be an acceptable way in which to proceed, and might have interesting consequences for population ceilings in other parts of the country. Although I will double check, I fear that the solution proposed by the hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness will not allow us to proceed in the way he suggested.
  We have tried to proceed in line with the consensus that emerged from the public consultation, and with the very strong representations about regional wishes that we have received. Our aim has been to develop broadly ward-based proposals, and they have allowed more accurate targeting of regional priorities than is possible by using data gathered at the level of the local authority district. Because population coverage is reduced from the level set in the last structural fund round, we have to accept that funding must be targeted as specifically as possible on the worst cases of real and identified need.
  In the light of the results of the public consultation—and given the regional priorities identified by the regional offices in England and by their counterparts in the Scottish Executive and the Welsh Assembly—we developed criteria based on levels of unemployment, in combination with measures of high dependency on industry or agriculture and of the decline in those sectors. As I have suggested already, we also used an index of local deprivation for the urban strand.
  The regional priorities identified by the consultation process gave us far more than could be accommodated in the proposals that we designed to accord with the population ceiling agreed at the summit. To help us find the best possible solutions, in many cases the regions refined those priorities as the proposals developed.
  I regret that it has not been possible to include in those proposals Withernsea and the other areas to which the hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness referred
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  I know that he and my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole are to meet my right hon. Friend the Minister for Trade, who has direct responsibility for this matter. However, it would be wrong to hold out any great hope of further change. Our proposals were put forward to the Commission at the beginning of October and we cannot amend them now.
  We look forward to receiving the Commission's response to our proposals. I have undertaken already to check the specific statistical point raised by the hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness although, as I said, I doubt that the answer that he will get will give him much comfort.
  I hope that I have said enough to show, first, that we secured an outstanding result for the United Kingdom in the structural fund package. Secondly, I hope that I have shown that we have secured objective 1 and objective 2 coverage for Yorkshire and Humberside that more than matches the existing population under the equivalent programmes in operation now. In that context, in order to meet the overall population ceiling and to fit inside the four strands that the European Union's new regulation has mandated for the structural funds programme, we have had to make very difficult choices about the specific areas to be covered.
  I shall end on a note of hope that echoes what the hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness said about investment from other sources. The Government have programmes that are directed to disadvantaged areas. I am sure that the single regeneration budget will bring hope and a better future to the hon. Gentleman's constituents, in what is a very deprived area.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at twenty-nine minutes past Seven o'clock.

DEFENCE

  Defence Communication Services Agency
  Jean Corston
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what key targets have been set for the Defence Communication Services Agency for 1999–2000. [98609]

  Mr. Kilfoyle
  The role of the Defence Communication Services Agency is to provide information transfer services to Defence. The Key Targets for the Agency for the 12 months from 1 April 1999 are:Key Target 1:
  To achieve a mean 95 per cent. of the performance targets set down in the Services Baseline Document for the timeliness, accuracy and protection of information transfer services except where other specific targets have been agreed with customers.
  Key Target 2:
  To commission 90 per cent. of requests for new services on or before the dates agreed with customers.
  Key Target 3:
  To restore 95 per cent. of interrupted services classed as operationally urgent within four hours or within other specific periods agreed with customers.
  Key Target 4:
  To answer 85 per cent. of calls to DCSA Operator Assistance Centres in UK within 15 seconds.

  RAF Personnel
  Mrs. Gilroy
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what changes are to be made to the reserve service liability of non-commissioned Royal Air Force personnel. [98663]

  Mr. Spellar
  Currently, on completion of a period of regular service which does not attract an immediate pension, non-commissioned Royal Air Force personnel are liable for up to six years service in either Category 1 or Category 2 of the RAF Reserve of Airmen. The majority of these reservists are placed in Category 1 and have a liability for 15 days annual training, in return for which they receive a small annual payment. Those in Category 2 have no such training liability and, therefore, do not receive payment.

  The reason for this annual training liability dates back to the Cold War and was intended to ensure that sufficient trained personnel would be available to provide, at relatively short notice, key point guards in the event of an anticipated attack on the United Kingdom. In the current strategic environment, however, any requirement for reinforcement could be met within the longer period that the Royal Air Force would have to achieve its required readiness states. Moreover, current planning assumptions indicate that, although there is a continuing need for volunteer reservists, there is little likelihood of the Royal
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  Air Force Reserve of Airmen being required to meet Royal Air Force outputs short of regeneration. Indeed, lessons learned from the operations in Kosovo are expected to further emphasise the need for volunteer reserves, rather than ex-regular reserves.

  It has therefore been decided that non-commissioned personnel who have a commitment beginning on or after 1 February 2000 to serve in the Royal Air Force Reserve of Airmen, will be placed in Category 2 and will have no annual training liability. Ex-regular personnel currently serving in Category 1 will be invited to forego their annual training liability for the remainder of their reserve service commitment.

  This decision will not affect the requirement for all members of the Royal Air Force Reserve of Airmen to keep the Service authorities informed of their contact addresses, and they will still retain their liability for call-out.

CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT

  British Library
  Mr. Bradshaw
  To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport if he intends to undertake a review of the British Library. [98605]

  Mr. Alan Howarth
  As part of my Department's programme of quinquennial reviews of its public bodies, I have today announced the start of our Review of the British Library.

  The British Library is the national centre for reference, study and bibliographical and other information services, in relation both to scientific and technological matters and to the humanities. The Review of the Library will include an evaluation of its role and functions and how those functions can best be carried out, and a review of the efficiency and effectiveness of the way in which the Library delivers services to its users. We aim to complete the Review during the Spring of 2000. A copy of the Terms of Reference has been placed in the Libraries of the House.

EDUCATION AND EMPLOYMENT

  Remploy
  Mr. Dennis Turner
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Employment when he will undertake a quinquennial review of Remploy Ltd. [98571]

  Ms Hodge
  As part of the Government's commitment to achieve better public services, as set out in its Modernising Government White Paper, my Department is today beginning a Quinquennial Review of Remploy. Its aim will be to consider Remploy's contribution to the changing economy and within the new framework for civil rights for disabled people. Following standard Cabinet Office guidelines, the terms of reference for the prior options stage of the review will be:

  (i) To review the functions of Remploy, the effectiveness with which they have been carried out, and the likely need in the future for these functions.

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  (ii) To consider whether on efficiency grounds some or all of the functions of Remploy can be carried out within an alternative organisational framework including by another public, private or voluntary sector body or otherwise within government.

  (iii) To consider the powers, constitutional status, membership and objectives of Remploy.

  We should welcome comments on those matters covered by the review from all those with an interest in Remploy's work. Comments, which may be made public unless respondents specifically request otherwise, should be sent by 31 January 2000, to:

  Arthur Blacklock

  Adult Disadvantage Policy Division

  Department for Education and Employment

  Moorfoot

  Sheffield S1 4PQ

  We have asked that this first stage of the review should be completed by the end of March 2000. The findings will be published and made available to Parliament.

HOME DEPARTMENT

  Crime (Sentences) Act
  Valerie Davey
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he intends to implement section 4 of the Crime (Sentences) Act 1997. [98814]

  Mr. Straw
  Section 4 of the Crime (Sentences) Act 1997 will come into force on 1 December 1999.

  This provides a minimum sentence of three years imprisonment for those convicted for the third time of an offence of domestic burglary.

  Political Parties (Funding)
  Mr. Ivan Lewis
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many replies were received in response to the White Paper on the funding of political parties in the United Kingdom. [98815]

  Mr. Mike O'Brien
  The Home Office has received 36 written responses to the White Paper on the funding of political parties in the United Kingdom. Of those, only two have asked to remain confidential. Copies of the rest have been placed in the Library.

  We are giving careful consideration to the issues raised by respondents and will take them fully into account in the preparation of a Bill for introduction in Parliament.

  Police Training
  Mr. Tony Lloyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what plans he has for the future of police training in England and Wales. [98816]

  Mr. Straw
  A consultation document on proposals for new arrangements for the structure and delivery of police training in England and Wales has been published today. Copies have been placed in the Library and are also being sent to police forces, police authorities, police staff associations and other interested parties. They have been invited to comment by 8 January 2000.

  The consultation period reflects the discussion and debate we have had during the extensive examination of police training in recent months. There has been an
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  inquiry by the Home Affairs Committee, a thematic inspection of training by Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary, a report by Sir William Stubbs and Roger McClure of the London Institute and two reports by the Police Federation. I am grateful to all those who have carried out these surveys and to all those who contributed their time and views during their preparation.

  The consultation paper published today is firmly based on these studies. The paper describes the changes which the Government believe will deliver real improvements. There are numerous examples of good practice and indeed excellence under present arrangements and the proposals will build on those. The proposals, however, also represent an opportunity for a fresh start in police training: I believe that the police service and all the stakeholders in police training in England and Wales are ready to take action in this important area.

  The proposed new arrangements will enable the police service to benefit from new development in education and training and in information and communications technology to achieve professional excellence.

  The proposals published today provide an unprecedented opportunity to raise standards in police training across the board, to provide relevant profession-long training and development for all staff and to translate effective training into real outcomes.

  Witnesses
  Mr. Alan Keen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the proposed timetable for the implementation of(a) the recommendations relating to vulnerable and intimidated witnesses contained in the report, "Speaking Up For Justice", and (b) the measures designed to help witnesses give evidence in Part II of the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Act 1999. [98817]

  Mr. Charles Clarke
  The Government are determined that action should be taken to implement the recommendations in "Speaking Up For Justice" as soon as possible while ensuring that all the necessary equipment and underpinning guidance is in place. I have today published an implementation plan, "Action For Justice", which explains how the agencies working in the criminal justice system are responding to the report. It includes a timetable for implementation, including those witness measures contained in the 1999 Act. Copies have been placed in the Library.

  Immigration
  Helen Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what plans he has to strengthen immigration legislation to tackle abuse of the United Kingdom's immigration control. [98818]

  Mrs. Roche
  The Government are firmly committed to ensuring that those who seek to migrate to the United Kingdom, but have no grounds for doing so under the Immigration Rules, are prevented from coming here.

  From the first moment of Friday 19 November, we will require nationals of the Republic of Croatia to obtain visas to come to the United Kingdom. Croatian nationals will also have to obtain a Direct Airside Transit Visa when they intend to remain airside while in transit through the United Kingdom.

ENVIRONMENT, TRANSPORT AND THE REGIONS

  Rent Assessment Panels
  Mr. Crausby
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions what progress has been made on the Financial Management and Policy Review of Rent Assessment Panels in England. [98437]

  Mr. Mullin
  I have today published a consultation paper on a review of Rent Assessment Panels in England, setting out options for improving their organisation and management.

  Rent Assessment Panels and their committees and tribunals drawn from them, have an important role to play in dealing with fair rent appeals and in resolving disputes between leaseholders and landlords. It is essential they provide an effective service and that it is responsive to the needs of the people who use them.

  The consultation paper sets out a range of options aimed at simplifying the process for all parties and reducing the time taken for disputes to be resolved by the tribunals.

  Copies of the consultation paper have been placed in the Library of the House.

  Millennium Compliance
  Ms Kelly
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions if he will make a statement on the preparations of the international aviation industry towards achieving millennium compliance. [98438]

  Mr. Hill
  The aviation industry in this country—airlines, airports and air traffic control—has been independently assessed and been declared by the Civil Aviation Authority to be millennium compliant.

  Internationally, the aviation industry has adopted a comprehensive approach towards the Y2k problem. The major international aviation organizations—the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO), the International Air Transport Association (IATA) representing the world airlines, and other organisations covering the world's airports and air traffic control systems—have all conducted detailed surveys. Compliance programmes are in the final stages of completion. Current information shows that the international aviation industry is on track for compliance and that airlines will be able to operate services as normal over the Millennium period, should they wish to do so.

  As regards foreign aircraft operating to the UK, permits are only granted to airlines if they comply with international safety standards. The Government have advised foreign airlines that permits may be suspended over the Millennium if they are not satisfied there are no Y2k safety related risks.

  The Government will not, for Y2k reasons, try to prevent any UK airlines from operating to particular destinations or flying over particular regions. IATA's worldwide project on behalf of its member airlines has
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  produced an exhaustive database to provide its member airlines with an authoritative basis upon which to make informed decisions about the services they provide.

  The industry is also engaged on the preparation of national and global contingency plans to deal with any unexpected Y2k problems over the Millennium. On the night of 31 December, special procedures will be in place across the world to monitor the situation and provide for rapid and effective communications between government and industry. Although traffic levels over the period are expected to be considerably reduced compared with previous years, the industry is formulating contingency plans to provide capacity as if air traffic was operating at peak levels, even though it is likely to be one twentieth of this volume. Key facilities such as air traffic control centres will be staffed at higher levels than normal to deal with any unexpected problems.

  Orange Badge Scheme
  Ms Oona King
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions if he will review the Orange Badge scheme of parking concessions for disabled people following the report produced by his statutory advisers, the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee. [98572]

  Mr. Hill
  I have given very careful consideration to DPTAC's report and to the further information which we sought from local authorities about the administration of the Scheme. I have also taken the opportunity to consult my colleagues in the devolved administrations and in Northern Ireland.

  We have concluded that a review of the Scheme is necessary to ensure it continues to serve its fundamental purpose: to enable severely disabled people to park close to their destinations. Without the badge the mobility of those who are most disabled would be greatly restricted. We will be starting the process in the New Year and will be reporting further progress to the House at that time. For now, I can confirm that the review will look at the eligibility criteria, as well as the administration and enforcement of the Scheme.

  Although the Scheme in Scotland and Wales is a matter for the devolved administrations, and in Northern Ireland for the DOE Northern Ireland, I have agreed with my colleagues that the review will be carried out on a UK-wide basis. That arrangement will not, however, prevent changes being introduced on a devolved basis.

  Greenwich Millennium Village
  Mr. Efford
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions when he will be in a position to respond to the report he has received on progress with the Greenwich Millennium Village. [98606]

  Mr. Prescott
  I have today placed in the House Libraries copies of the report provided by English Partnerships which was produced by Gardiner and Theobald.

  I have discussed the report with those leading the project and have agreed that the development may proceed. I have authorised English Partnerships to release the first parcel of land to the developers, so that work can start before Christmas.
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  I am satisfied that Greenwich Millennium Village is now broadly on course to deliver the original aspirations of the project. The architect, Ralph Erskine, is content that the present scheme proposals are consistent with his original masterplan. I have received personal assurances from Alan Cherry, the Chairman of Countryside Properties PLC, and Bob Hawley, the Chairman of Taylor Woodrow PLC, that the Village will, as planned, set the high standards of innovation and sustainability which are needed for such an important mixed use scheme for the 21st Century.

  Planning Enforcement Appeals
  Mr. Michael Jabez Foster
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions what proposals he has to improve the arrangements for processing planning enforcement appeals in England. [98607]

  Ms Beverley Hughes
  I have today issued a consultation paper with proposals to improve the effectiveness and efficiency of processing planning enforcement appeals in England. Comments are invited by 18 February 2000.

  The improvements are proposed as part of the Government's continuing drive to modernise and streamline the planning system. The proposals are intended to improve the Planning Inspectorate's service to its customers. They aim to increase the efficiency of the enforcement appeals process in the interests of all involved by reducing the time taken to determine appeals and standardise procedures between enforcement appeals and ordinary planning appeals wherever practicable.

  Signals Passed at Danger
  Mr. White
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions if he has received from the Health and Safety Executive the first of the monthly reports which he requested on signals passed at danger; and if he will make a statement. [98608]

  Mr. Prescott
  Following the train crash at Ladbroke Grove on 5 October, a number of urgent actions were put in hand to achieve a more open, more responsive and more rigorous culture of safety across the rail industry. As part of these, I asked the Health&Safety Executive (HSE) to let me have regular reports for publication monthly, on all signals passed at danger (SPADs). I received the first of those reports on Tuesday and have now placed a copy in the House Library. I will ensure that future reports are also placed in the Library.

  This first report includes some background information on SPADs and how they are dealt with by the industry and HSE's Railways Inspectorate. It gives statistics for SPADs for the last 10 years and splits the figures by month. The annual figures show that the totals have been falling gradually since 1993–94 until the 8 per cent. rise in 1998–99, which prompted HSE to demand improvements from the industry on how they responded to SPADs. The monthly figures demonstrate the cyclical nature of the problem, with SPADs tending to peak in October/November, when damp conditions and falling leaves can lead to poor braking performance.
  8W
  This October there were five serious incidents (which for instance, breached the 200 yard safety overlap usually allowed at signals), comprising 7 per cent. of the total for the month. As well as the industry investigation of every SPAD, HSE will also investigate thoroughly these more serious SPADs. We should not read too much into one month's figures but the October total was significantly lower than last year.

  The October SPAD figure has only been bettered once in the last 10 years. We must not be complacent however. The Ladbroke Grove accident demonstrated all too clearly how a single SPAD can result in catastrophe. That is why it is so important that the rail industry commit to reducing the number of SPADs. I sought this commitment from the industry at the rail summit which I held last month. When the industry reports back to me on 30 November I shall expect nothing less from them than a detailed programme of action.

PRIME MINISTER

  Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting
  Mr. Stuart Bell
  To ask the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on the recent Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting held in South Africa. [98662]

  The Prime Minister
  I attended the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting, which took place in South Africa from 12–15 November.

  The meeting welcomed Nigeria back into the Commonwealth and Nauru as a full member.

  The meeting took significant decisions on the future of the Commonwealth, the promotion of democracy and human rights, Pakistan and debt, trade and development.

  Commonwealth Heads agreed my proposal that we establish a high-level group, under the Chairmanship of President Mbeki, to review the role of the Commonwealth in the 21st Century. In addition to South Africa, the UK, Australia, Fiji, India, Malta, Singapore, Tanzania, Trinidad and Tobago and Zimbabwe will be on the group. It will report to the next Heads of Government Meeting in Australia in 2001.

  Commonwealth Heads re-affirmed the fundamental political values enshrined in the Harare Commonwealth Declaration. We sent a strong message to General Musharraf in Pakistan calling for a speedy restoration of democracy and the immediate release of Nawaz Sharif and the others detained with him. We agreed that Pakistan should remain suspended from the Councils of the Commonwealth.

  Heads discussed the special theme of "People-Centred Development: the Challenge of Globalisation". We agreed the Fancourt Declaration, which provides a broad agenda to which all Commonwealth countries agreed to work. Heads agreed that globalisation should bring benefits to all, provided it is a genuine force for liberalisation and is accompanied by structural reform and improved competitiveness. We agreed that the new round of WTO

  9W
  trade negotiations should have a development focus, should cover agriculture, services and industrial products and should be balanced.

  Heads expressed concern about the impact of HIV/AIDS, particularly in sub-Saharan Africa. I announced over £22 million of UK assistance for HIV/AIDS related projects, including:

  £14 million for development of a low-cost vaccine;

  £7.5 million for the implementation of an HIV/AIDS strategy in Southern Africa; and

  £1.2 million to train more than 700 VSO volunteers to raise awareness of HIV/AIDs in Southern Africa.

  The Second Commonwealth Business Forum was held in Johannesburg immediately before the Heads meeting. It highlighted the importance of links between Government and the private sector throughout the Commonwealth.

  Heads elected Don McKinnon to succeed Chief Emeka Anyaoku as Commonwealth Secretary General. We paid warm tribute to Chief Anyaoku's service over the last 10 years.

  I held formal bilateral meetings with President Clerides of Cyprus, President Obasanjo of Nigeria and Prime Minister Vajpayee of India, had a meeting with Caribbean Commonwealth Heads and had the opportunity for informal discussions with many of the other Heads present.

  I have arranged for copies of the Durban Communiqué and the Fancourt Commonwealth Declaration on Globalisation and People-Centred Development to be placed in the Library of the House.

SOLICITOR-GENERAL

  CPS
  Ms Coffey
  To ask the Solicitor-General what progress has been made with the introduction of information technology in the Crown Prosecution Service; and if he will make a statement. [98440]

  The Solicitor-General
  As a first step in the CPS's IT Modernisation Programme, CPS prosecutors and caseworkers will be given modern IT tools and the ability to communicate electronically with other criminal justice agencies. The project will be completed in under two years.

  The recent award of £12 million from the Treasury's Capital Modernisation Fund—correcting my answer to the question from my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Kidney) on 21 October 1999, Official Report, column 567—is a major step forward for the CPS. These funds together with a substantial commitment of the CPS's existing resources, will help transform and modernise working practices to deliver better performance.The CPS can start catching-up with IT developments in the criminal justice system and build on its successes in Durham and elsewhere. On 16 September 1999, I visited the CPS office in Stockport, which is a
  10W
  pilot site for an integrated IT system linking the CPS with the police and courts. CPS staff in Stockport, including prosecutors, have embraced enthusiastically the introduction of IT. All staff now use the system to produce correspondence, prepare for trials, and perhaps, more significantly, have established electronic links with the Magistrates Court as well as the Stockport Division of the Greater Manchester Police.

LORD CHANCELLOR'S DEPARTMENT

  Public Trust Office
  Mr. Tony Lloyd
  To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department when the Government will publish the quinquennial review of the Public Trust Office. [99046]

  Jane Kennedy
  The Lord Chancellor has today published the Quinquennial Review of the Public Trust Office, an Executive Agency of the Lord Chancellor's Department established in 1994.

  The Review found strong support for the Government offering protection for the financial affairs of people who are mentally incapable of managing them for themselves.

  The Review recommends that the delivery of the Public Trust Office's key services should be carried out by organisations operating in the voluntary and public sectors, and private sector suppliers. The Lord Chancellor would remain ultimately responsible for the services provided. The Public Trust Office would focus on monitoring the provision of such services and ensuring that the needs of vulnerable people were met. The Review recommends that the Public Trust Office's refinanced and refocused operations should be performed by other parts of the Lord Chancellor's Department: the Court Service and the Official Solicitor's Office. The current Public Trust Office would then be phased out as a separate executive agency.

  The Lord Chancellor has welcomed the Review's clear diagnosis of the challenges faced by the Public Trust Office. He agrees that radical change is required and he, together with colleagues, will wish to explore the Review's recommendations in a programme of change for the Public Trust Office. In doing so, he will want to be satisfied that reform does not entail placing a greater financial burden on some of the poorest and most vulnerable members of society. The Lord Chancellor will announce, in February 2000, how he will take forward reform.

  The Government's overriding objective will be to ensure that the interests of the Public Trust Office's clients are fully protected. To this end the recently established Consultative Forum representing the users of Public Trust Office services will be closely involved in considering how practical improvements to client services can be effected in working up the proposals for change that the Lord Chancellor considers necessary.

  Copies of the Review have been placed in the Libraries of both Houses.

CABINET OFFICE

  Civil Service (New Deal)
  Ms Rosie Winterton
  To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many people have been employed in the Civil Service under the New Deal for the young and unemployed. [98439]

  Marjorie Mowlam
  Based on information provided by Civil Service departments (including their Agencies) participating as employers in the New Deal, the position as at 1 October 1999 is as follows:

  New Deal starts since programmes began

  Department (including their Agencies)

  Age 18–24

  Age 25+

  Total

  Agriculture, Fisheries and Food

  9

  2

  11

  Cabinet Office

  8

  1

  9

  Culture, Media and Sport

  0

  3

  3

  Defence

  27

  21

  48

  Education and Employment

  425

  22

  447

  Environment, Transport and the Regions

  8

  1

  9

  Foreign and Commonwealth Office

  3

  0

  3

  Government Communications Headquarters

  0

  0

  0

  Health

  7

  5

  12

  Home Office

  4

  4

  8

  International Development

  0

  0

  0

  Lord Chancellor's

  4

  0

  4

  National Assembly for Wales

  13

  3

  16

  Northern Ireland Office

  8

  8

  16

  Scottish Executive

  22

  0

  22

  Social Security

  56

  0

  56

  Trade and Industry

  33

  6

  39

  HM Treasury

  28

  9

  37

  Other

  Charity Commission

  8

  0

  8

  Export Credits Guarantee Department

  4

  0

  4

  Government Offices for the Regions

  3

  0

  3

  Intervention Board

  2

  1

  3

  Lord Advocate's

  3

  0

  3

  Totals

  675

  86

  761

AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD

  Food Chain Group
  Mr. Hoyle
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what advice he has received from the Food Chain Group; and if he will make a statement. [98610]

  Mr. Nick Brown
  The Food Chain Group comprised senior figures from the National Farmers Union, Food and Drink Federation, British Retail Consortium, IGD (formerly the Institute of Grocery Distribution) and MAFF, under the chairmanship of a senior MAFF official. The Group was invited to review the opportunities for working together and increasing understanding amongst the players in the food chain, and between the industry and consumers.

  The Group has reported to me on the challengers and opportunities facing the food chain. The report stresses the vital importance of a viable and competitive food chain and identifies the need for action by industry and government to underpin consumer confidence in the quality and value of our food. The key messages include calls to: enhance the dialogue between partners in the food chain; improve communications with consumers; strengthen consumer confidence; and understand and act upon consumer concerns. The need for joined-up help from the Government to improve the industry's competitiveness is also identified.

  I have asked the Policy Issues Council of IGD, which has senior representation across the supply chain, to consider how industry could best take the issues forward. We intend to review progress next Summer.

  The report is being sent to a wide range of agri-food organisations and interests, and further copies are available from my Department. Copies have also been placed in the Library of the House.

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock (Prayers having been read earlier at the Judicial Sitting by the Lord Bishop of Birmingham): The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Lord Gascoyne-Cecil
The Right Honourable Robert Michael James Viscount Cranborne, having been created Baron Gascoyne-Cecil, of Essendon in the County of Rutland, for life, took the oath.
Lord Shepherd of Spalding
The Right Honourable Malcolm Newton Lord Shepherd, having been created Baron Shepherd of Spalding, of Spalding in the County of Lincolnshire, for life, took the oath.

Armed Forces Discipline Bill [H.L.]
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean): My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to amend the Army Act 1955, the Air Force Act 1955 and the Naval Discipline Act 1957 in relation to custody, the right to elect court martial trial and appeals against findings made or punishments awarded on summary dealing or summary trial; and for connected purposes. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time—
Moved, That the Bill be now read a first time.—(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean.)
On Question, Bill read a first time, and to be printed.

Children (Leaving Care) Bill [H.L.]
Lord Burlison: My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to make provision in relation to children and young persons who are being or have been looked after by a local authority; I o replace Section 24 of the Children Act 1989; and for connected purposes. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a first time.—(Lord Burlison.)
On Question, Bill read a first time, and to be printed.

Criminal Justice (Mode of Trial) Bill [H.L.]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Bassam of Brighton): My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to make provision for determining the mode of trial in the case of offences triable either
24
summarily or on indictment; and for connected purposes. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a first time.— (Lord Bassam of Brighton.)
On Question, Bill read a first time, and to be printed.

Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate Bill [H.L.]
The Attorney-General (Lord Williams of Mostyn): My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill providing for an inspectorate for the Crown Prosecution Service; and connected purposes. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a first time.—(Lord Williams of Mostyn.)
On Question, Bill read a first time, and to be printed.

Nuclear Safeguards Bill [H.L.]
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to enable effect to be given to the protocol signed at Vienna on 22nd September 1998, additional to the agreement for the application of safeguards in the United Kingdom in connection with the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons; to allow effect to be given to that agreement in certain territories outside the United Kingdom; and for connected purposes. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.—
Moved, That the Bill be now read a first time.—(Lord McIntosh of Haringey.)
On Question, Bill read a first time, and to be printed.

Committee of Selection
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Boston of
Faversham): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That in accordance with Standing Order 63 a Committee of Selection be appointed to select and propose to the House the names of the Lords to form each Select Committee of the House (except the Committee of Selection itself and any committee otherwise provided for by statute or by order of the House) or any other body not being a Select Committee referred to it by the Chairman of Committees, and the Panel of Deputy Chairmen of Committees; and that the following Lords together with the Chairman of Committees be named of the committee—

L. Burnham,

L. Carter,

L. Harris of Greenwich,

L. Henley,

B. Jay of Paddington,

L. McIntosh of Haringey,

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L. Rodgers of Quarry Bank,

L. Strathclyde,

V. Tenby,

L. Weatherill.—(The Chairman of Committees.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

Address in Reply to Her Majesty's Most Gracious Speech
3.5 p.m.
Debate resumed on the Motion moved yesterday by the Baroness Pitkeathley—namely, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty as follows:
"Most Gracious Sovereign—We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, beg leave to thank Your Majesty for the most gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament".
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, it is a privilege for me to open this important debate on the last gracious Speech of the current millennium. The Government's aim in the Queen's Speech is clear: to set out a radical and reforming programme of legislation built around enterprise and fairness and creating a modern Britain. I look forward to the debate and, in particular, to the maiden speeches from the noble Lord, Lord Watson of Richmond, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Guildford. I am sure all your Lordships wish them well.
I know that the noble Lords, Lord Strathclyde and Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank, signalled their intention of making more general comments. But from these Benches we recognise the importance of opening the debate on foreign and defence policy by addressing foreign and defence policy issues and recognising Britain's important role as an effective international partner. We shall go on developing those themes in the current year.
In addressing these issues we are building on action to secure a platform of economic stability and steady growth. Last week my right honourable friend the Chancellor set out the Government's economic programme for enterprise and fairness. Yesterday the gracious Speech laid out a parallel strategy for our legislation this year.
The legislative programme is large—28 Bills in all, with Bills for enterprise, including promoting e-commerce and better regulation; Bills for fairness, including greater protection for children and decent pensions for all; and Bills to modernise Britain aimed at improving democracy and opening up Whitehall. Not only is this a large agenda, it is also a bold agenda. It is an agenda which continues to reflect the priorities set out in the Government's manifesto— crime, welfare, transport, education and health. And as my noble friend the Leader of the House made clear yesterday, it is an agenda which the Government are determined to secure in both Houses of Parliament, whatever tactics may be deployed in an attempt to
26
frustrate it. I am sure that we will demonstrate our coherence and vision, which the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, seems to doubt so much.
Enterprise, fairness and modernisation are central to the approach the Government have taken in relation to Britain's foreign and defence policy. Those policies are rooted in the Government's vision about Britain's place in the world, both today and in the future. This Government intend to deliver a foreign and security policy and international development programme which are radical, modern and forward looking.
This Government are convinced of the need to engage fully and actively as part of the international community in the debates which will shape the world in which we live during the next century. Those debates concern the future shape and role of the European Union; the need to improve Europe's security and defence capability; and the many other changes that face us in the new millennium, from tackling international crime to facing up to environmental and humanitarian problems and tackling world poverty. The debates are a crucial dimension in developing our agenda for a modern Britain built on enterprise and fairness.
We live in an interconnected and interdependent world. We cannot opt out of these discussions. To do so would be to abrogate our ability to influence events. That is not Britain's way. Our way is to contribute, to be partners, to sustain our friendships and to forge new alliances while such relationships can contribute to peace, stability, social justice and a better and more prosperous life. That is true at home and it is true in our international life too.
Our role is a vital one, as one of the largest and most populous European states; as the world's fifth largest economy and a major trading nation; as a member of the UN Security Council, the G8, NATO and the Commonwealth; and as the possessors of probably the most respected Armed Forces in the world.
Since this Government came to power we have made clear that we want to use the resources we have to benefit the people of this country, of Europe and of the world. Crucial to this is promoting international stability: everything else, our security, prosperity and human rights, flow from this. We will engage with any country where we can make progress through dialogue to meet these objectives, particularly with those countries who believe, as we do, in freedom and democracy, in the rule of law and in human rights.
Stemming from this is a determination to help those in poverty in the world. Justice demands that people in poverty be given the opportunity to improve their lives. Reducing poverty is a clear responsibility of the international community. It is important because it is right in itself but it is also vital in promoting stability. Tackling poverty is one of the major ways of preventing conflict, avoiding confrontation and reducing organised crime. These issues are issues on the streets of London among young people with drug problems and they are issues on the streets of every city in the world. So we are committed to the UN's target

27
of halving the proportion of the world's population living in abject poverty by 2015. This means helping a billion people cut of poverty within 20 years. The target is visionary and it is achievable, but only if we adopt the appropriate policies nationally and internationally.
One of this Government's major achievements has been to forge a new role for Britain in Europe. Our strategy, clear from the start, has been to make Britain a leading partner in Europe. Europe is fundamental to Britain. In 1997 the people of this country made a simple and crucial choice. They chose to elect a government who wanted the European Union to work, not one that wished that the European Union did not exist; a government who would build effective relationships with our European partners and use them to benefit Britain, not one who chose to be marginalised, shouting instructions from the sidelines. Above all, the people of Britain chose a government who would work constructively to build an open, effective and enlarged European Union.
Perhaps I may tell the House about the kind of European Union we are working for. It is one which extends stability and prosperity across our continent, ending the false divide of the cold war, and in so doing opens new markets and new investment opportunities for business; a Europe which takes effective action through closer police co-operation to combat cross-border crime and drug trafficking; and a Europe which can have a clearer voice in the world and make a more effective contribution on the foreign policy stage.
It is because Britain is committed to the success of the EU that we are also committed to reforming it. Economic reform is one of the biggest challenges facing Europe. It is vital that Europe should prosper as much in the next century as it has in this. This Government are working actively and constructively with our partners to put together an economic strategy which will best serve Europe's interests in the years to come, starting at the special Council meeting in Lisbon next March which will discuss European economic reform.
But Europe still has a long way to go. In October last year the Prime Minister called for a fresh debate on Europe's security and defence arrangements. He said that it was time for Europe to live up to its responsibilities on the international stage and time for our economic and political weight to be matched by a stronger foreign and security policy. Since then the Kosovo crisis has reaffirmed the need to make changes. While today the majority of KFOR troops are Europeans, commanded by a European NATO commander, it was American military power that provided the lion's share of our capability during the Kosovo crisis itself.
With all too few exceptions, Europe's armed forces are still structured to meet the requirements of the cold war rather than the requirements of the next century. They are static when they need to be deployable. They are hampered by their reliance on national fixed infrastructure when they need to be sustainable for long periods in theatres of operations. They are focused on single tasks when they need to be flexible.
28
So we need to pull more weight. We all need to modernise to respond to the changing world. We need to address this by reforming our institutions and by looking at the capabilities of our forces themselves. This is why the United Kingdom and France launched a joint defence initiative at the end of last year. This year we have made progress with that initiative, working together as Europeans and with our American allies to begin to pull together structures that will allow Europe to play its proper role in the world.
But none of this changes the fundamental importance of NATO. I know that noble Lords opposite will question my noble friend Lady Scotland on this issue when she replies to the debate. I know that because they always do. So let me anticipate the question from the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan. I assure the House that NATO is, and must remain, the cornerstone of our defence and security policy, and will be the only organisation for conducting collective defence in Europe.
I am sure that we all wish the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, well in his new role as Secretary General of NATO. He was a terrific Secretary of State and I have no doubt that his expertise, talent and commitment will be highly valued in NATO.
NATO will also be the organisation we will use for many crisis management operations, in particular those where Europeans and Americans wish to act together. But at the same time we must he able to provide an additional capability which will allow the EU ready access to NATO assets to act in support of a European crisis management operation where this is appropriate. The work which this Government are leading with those countries which share our values and enjoy our freedoms will, by improving the effectiveness of its European pillar, strengthen NATO as a part of a whole.
I am pleased to say that Britain has led the way with the Strategic Defence Review, which was announced last year and is now being successfully implemented. The SDR points the way ahead on the sort of armed forces which Europe needs to meet the challenges of the new century. It is a radical and far-reaching modernisation of the way we can manage and deliver defence in the world in which we now live.
Overshadowing everything we have done in defence and security this year was the conflict in Kosovo. This was not a conflict we sought. It was not a conflict we wanted to see take place. But it was a conflict that once engaged upon, we were determined to win. With our allies in NATO, we are working hard in Kosovo now on the restoration of the country, reconstructing its towns and villages, putting back together its businesses and its communities, helping to revive its character, its spirit and its people. That we are able to do so is a testament to the people in Kosovo. They saw their country being destroyed. They saw their homes and their communities being ripped apart. They saw their friends, relatives and loved ones being subjected to appalling atrocities and malevolent murder in the most sustained, vicious and brutal demonstration of ethnic cleansing in Europe for half a century.

29
This was not a conflict of politics or of positioning; it was not a conflict of economics or of expediency. This was the most simple and yet the most profound of conflicts. It was a choice between action and inaction; between responding to the most fundamental cry for help and standing aside from that cry. It was a choice between right and wrong.
NATO's member countries took a decision to stand together, and to stand together for Kosovo. We sustained that decision. We laid down the objectives we were determined to fulfil; we stuck to those objectives and we secured them.
Do not forget that we did so against a received wisdom—some of it expressed in this House, sometimes very passionately—that the strategy and the tactics that we had adopted not only would not succeed but could not succeed. I believe that, in spite of these views, NATO kept its collective nerve. I am proud to say, too, that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister was central to the maintenance of that steadfastness.
Kosovo is a good example of foreign policy, military action and international development working well together: military action as the execution of foreign policy and securing its objectives—which were in turn helped towards fruition by deft diplomacy, led for Britain by my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary—and international development to help build a post-conflict society.
We restored the peace in Kosovo. That, together with conflict prevention, is the key role we identified for our Armed Forces in the Strategic Defence Review. We have sustained that role in Bosnia, in the NATO-led peacekeeping force which has done so much to restore civil institutions, stability and prosperity to the people of a country which was only a few years ago riven by ethnic conflict, hatred, violence and brutality.
But these roles of defusing conflict are not limited to our immediate sphere of influence in Europe. Like many countries across the world, we believe that we have a responsibility to play a part in securing stability where regional conflicts place it under threat.
We have given strong support to the efforts to take forward the Middle East peace process. The Government believe that the election of Ehud Barak has created a new window of opportunity for the peace process to move forward, and we look to all parties involved in this complex and long-standing conflict to spare no effort in working for its resolution.
I was in the Middle East only last weekend, talking to our friends in Jordan. Our strong relationship with Jordan is a further example of how Britain is helping to increase the prospect of real stability in a region steeped in a tangled history of sometimes bloody conflict. In his last visit to this country earlier this year, King Hussein of Jordan asked my right honourable friend the Prime Minister what Britain could do to help increase Jordan's security. The Prime Minister responded positively and swiftly. Last weekend I saw some of the results, including the Challenger tanks that Britain has given to Jordan which I believe will help
30
sustain that country's ability to defend itself. Jordan's new king, Abdullah, has already made an impressive start, following in his father's footsteps as a force for peace, stability and moderation in the region.
Of course, Saddam Hussein continues to pose grave risks to his neighbours and to the international community, especially with his attempts to develop biological and chemical weapons in defiance of successive decisions of the United Nations Security Council and in defiance of his international obligations.
I am sure that noble Lords will recall that before the no-fly zones were established, Saddam Hussein made extensive use of helicopter gunships against the Kurdish population in the north as well as attacking Shi'a Muslims in the south. I can assure noble Lords that coalition activity is strictly limited to proportionate self-defence against carefully selected military targets. It is initiated only when coalition forces are directly threatened. Should Saddam Hussein cease his attacks on our aircraft there would be no need for us to take this defensive action. The only alternative to allowing our pilots to defend themselves properly would be to give up patrols and leave the Kurds and Shi'a Muslims exposed to Saddam's full might. This we are not prepared to do.
We have been working intensively over the past few months to reach agreement in the Security Council on a new, comprehensive way forward on Iraq. This approach would pave the way for the resumption of weapons inspections in Iraq, improve the humanitarian effort and address the issue of Kuwaiti detainees. We can take satisfaction that Britain has played a major role in looking to restore unity on Iraq in the Security Council.
But with Saddam Hussein vigilance will be our watchword. We have made it clear that our differences are not with the Iraqi people. We do not seek conflict— but neither would we shirk from it if again it proved to be necessary.
Of course, our forces are making a significant contribution to the Australian-led international force to East Timor, demonstrating once again our commitment to contribute speedily to international efforts to produce peace and stability and to supporting the United Nations. We were able to respond to this crisis quickly because the Strategic Defence Review has encouraged more joint working between the services so that they are able better to provide a quick, flexible and appropriate response to unexpected developments. By pooling our resources, by breaking down traditional barriers, by putting together in this case the right combination of naval power, infantry and air transport, all under joint command at short notice and ready to act on the far side of the world, we were able to demonstrate the validity of our modernised approach.
If I may, I shall now pay tribute to our servicemen and servicewomen. I know that it is always traditional to do so in these debates, but I do so in a particularly heartfelt way because I now have a growing knowledge of what our servicemen and servicewomen do. British

31
troops are welcome in many parts of the world in dealing with crises and disaster because they are complete professionals. They are superbly trained; their codes of conduct and their fairness in dealing with civilian populations are widely acknowledged as second to none. For example, following the return to civilian rule in Nigeria and Sierra Leone, the MoD, the DfID and the Foreign Office are actively engaged with both Governments in helping to rebuild their countries after years of terrible suffering. Our troops are playing a crucial role in that rebuilding. This is indeed joined-up government in action. It is making a real difference on the ground.
I am happy to say that our Armed Forces are now forming partnerships in providing advice and training to the armed forces of friendly states, advising on organisation—including, of course, the importance of democratic control—and helping to promote peaceful and Stable Societies.
Given the Scale and breadth of this activity, concerns are raised in many forums, including ministerial ones, about overstretch in our Armed Forces. May I make it clear that the Government fully recognise the importance of this issue. With the advice of the senior personnel across our military services, including Sir Charles Guthrie, a distinguished and forward thinking Chief of the Defence Staff, the problem is being addressed. But it is vital to understand what the problem is.
There are two components in any staffing shortages—rates of recruitment and rates of retention. On recruitment, we have made significant and impressive progress, the best in the Army in the past decade. On retention, the picture is far more complex. Many of our trained personnel leave the Armed Forces for family reasons. The Government are tackling this in a number of different ways. They include implementing guaranteed post-tour leave to allow personnel to spend much-needed time with their families. We have doubled the telephone allowance so that personnel are now able to speak to their families for up to 20 minutes a week at no cost, wherever they are in the world. We are taking special steps in the Balkans to allow, people to keep in touch by e-mail—"electronic blueys", as I understand this facility is known.
Moreover, the Government are, of course, constantly reviewing our troop deployment. For example, in Bosnia conditions have improved to the extent that this year it has been possible significantly to reduce the size of the NATO-led peacekeeping force, allowing us to reduce our troop commitment from some 4,500 to around 3,300 by the end of the year. As I was able to report to your Lordships only last week, whereas we had almost 13,000 military personnel committed to the NATO-led peacekeeping forces in Kosovo earlier this year, our deployment currently stands at under 5,000 and is due to reduce to fewer than 4,000 in the next couple of months.
Another important component of Armed Forces policies is the absolute commitment to equality and diversity and to developing a culture within the Armed
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Forces that accepts recruits from all sections of the community. I am encouraged that the services are in the forefront of progress in the public sector, but I am also shocked by some of the isolated cases of bullying, intimidation and harassment which still occur. The only acceptable standards in the Armed Forces are the very highest, and we shall be absolutely ruthless with anyone who does not live up to those standards. Wherever it occurs, racism is as unacceptable In Her Majesty's Armed Forces as it is anywhere in the country.
Our commitment to our people applies not just to the regular forces but also to the reserves. I have heard it said—sometimes from those who should know better—that this Government do not care about the reserves. That simply is not the case. As the SDR recommended, we are in fact using them as never before. We are integrating our reserve forces more closely with their regular counterparts and we are ensuring that they are properly manned, equipped and trained and that they have proper resources. Reserves are not there simply to be counted. They are there to be involved and I am pleased to say that that is what is happening.
As the gracious Speech announced, today saw the First Reading of the Armed Forces Discipline Bill. The Bill makes some adjustments to the procedures for administering discipline in the services, bringing under judicial control decisions concerning detention pending charge and trial. It also introduces a right of appeal for those whose discipline cases have been dealt with summarily.
There will be plenty of opportunity over the coming weeks for your Lordships to scrutinise this measure and I do not propose that we should anticipate the Second Reading debate today.
The gracious Speech also mentioned our overseas territories. We shall take forward our offer of British citizenship in our relationship with those territories, for whom we have not only a particular responsibility but also a very great affection. As the former Minister responsible for those territories, I am particularly pleased about that, and I know that my successor, the noble Baroness, Lady Scotland, will pursue that matter vigorously. Those territories and our other friends in the Caribbean are very much in our thoughts and prayers as Hurricane Lenny approaches them in the next couple of days.
Overseas, the OSCE is meeting today and. of course, Chechnya will be near the top of the agenda. I know how many of your Lordships have expressed concern about the volatile situation there. Her Majesty's Government will pursue every means available to help to bring peace to that troubled part of the world.
As the gracious Speech made clear, the values engendered in all of us of democracy, the rule of law and human rights are at the heart of our policies. Both at home and abroad, fairness and enterprise are the bedrock for peace and prosperity. The problems which the world faces are complex, diverse and numerous. From the troubled relationships of our good friends India and Pakistan, to the seemingly endemic violence

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in the Great Lake area of Africa, from the emerging democracy in Indonesia to the international fight in South America and Asia against the drugs trade, we are indeed faced with huge challenges. But we are determined to respond in the way expected of us by the people of Britain. Our record demonstrates that. The people of this country hate oppression; they value fairness and decency and want to see Britain as a force for good in the world. I believe that we shall be better equipped to face the range of international challenges with a modern foreign defence and international development policy; a policy which sees Britain playing its full part in resolving international issues; and a policy which has at its heart the security of this country.
3.34 p.m.
Lord Strathclyderose to move, as an amendment to the Motion for an humble Address, at the end of the Address to insert, "but regret the failure of Your Majesty's Government to reduce the burden of taxation and regulation and deplore the incoherence and the lack of vision of the measures proposed by Your Majesty's Government for the coming Session of Parliament".
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I rise to move the amendment to the humble Address standing in my name on the Order Paper. I do so conscious that this has not been done for some three years. Indeed, it has not been done by our party in 50 years and more since the war. That I do so is perhaps a sign of what we may see in this Session: a more confident and a more assertive House of Lords. It is a House shorn of that mythical, massive, in-built Tory majority that we used to hear about so much. Scarcely one-third of this House is Conservative. It is a House that was the deliberate creation of the Government's flagship Bill last Session; a House that has been described as "more legitimate" by none other than the noble Baroness the Leader of the House. If we are now politically correct, even in the noble Baroness's eyes, we cannot go far wrong.
At this juncture, on behalf of the whole House, perhaps I may say what a pleasure it is to congratulate the noble Baroness on her birthday today.
Noble Lords: Hear, hear!
Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, it is an important milestone and I very much hope that her family will take her out for a splendidly organised celebration this evening. We have had our differences in the past and we shall no doubt have them again in the future. However, this afternoon I declare a cessation to any hostilities and I wish her again a very happy birthday.
During the rest of this debate I look forward also to the many maiden speakers whom we shall hear. I hope that we shall hear from those speakers much again in the future.
Today I am not particularly interested in the question of the legitimacy of the new House. The fundamental reason why I move this amendment is
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that it is high time to subject this Government's performance to far more critical scrutiny in this House. That is, and always has been, the role of your Lordships' House. We are not going to disrupt the Government's business. I scent in that a new Labour lie in the making. What we shall do is to carry out our duty of scrutinising and revising.
This Government now have a record, and that record is not a good one. The tax burden is up; red tape and regulation are up; and the number of spin doctors and policy wonks lurking in No. 10 at the taxpayer's expense is up. However, so much of what is happening is not living up to fine words. Where is the beef? Come to mention it, where is the beef? It is certainly not where it should be—on the bone, on the dining tables of Britain and France and Germany. This issue represents another bumbling, bungling foreign affairs fiasco of the kind that we have come to know so well. And we, Great Britain, are supposed to be influential in the chancelleries of Europe. When shall we have a parliamentary Statement on what has happened in relation to beef?
Back in year one of this Government—and how long ago that glad, confident morning now looks— amid the tawdry and pathetic wrangling and gerrymandering over the mayoralty of London, it all started with promises. The trouble is that wherever one looks—helping savers, reducing taxes, putting 5,000 more policemen on the beat, strengthening the family, waiting to see the doctor—the promises are still just that—just promises; words, words and more words. As the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, said yesterday, is it not time that the Government began to reconnect with the real world? By the way, do the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, and her colleagues on the Front Bench still have that dog-eared pledge card in their pockets? I rather doubt it. I suspect that the noble Baroness is far too sensible for that. However, I bet that later on this evening they will be rifling through their desks trying to find it just in case the people at Millbank read this debate. So much for year one—the year of empty promises.
In year two, the Prime Minister declared that it was to be the year of delivery. We all remember that phrase, "the year of delivery". But why are we still waiting for the delivery? Is that why we have a half-baked Post Office Bill in the gracious Speech? I have to ask: where is the delivery? Old people in pain are waiting longer to see surgeons in our hospitals; disabled savers face penal denial of the help for which they have paid; people's savings have been despoiled and 10 million future retirements impoverished; grant-maintained schools have gone; poor children have lost assistance for the best that education can provide and grammar schools are now under threat; and small firms, the backbone of our economy, are groaning under a burden of new regulation. And now what is happening? The Government are setting up a new committee to catch the old committee that was supposed to be trying to stop all the other committees regulating too much. It is a comic opera. "There was an old woman who swallowed a fly" has nothing on it. It would be ridiculous if it was not so sad.

35
The Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales has just reported that small companies of up to 10 people are now paying almost £2,000 a year more because of new Labour regulation. Slightly larger firms of up to 50 employees are paying nearly £5,000 a year more on average just to fill in forms and respond to regulators. Frontier industries that we desperately need, like IT consultants, are being hounded from pillar to post. A million small traders are sitting up until midnight filling in the Government's forms. The cost is estimated to run into hundreds of millions of pounds. That comes from a Government who claim to be the friend of business and who claim to be deregulating.
It is no good claiming that when you have a Queen's Speech like this, one which will launch a mass of new regulations on utilities, on financial services, on farmers, on landowners, on transport, on motorists—you name it, they regulate it. Where old Labour controlled through nationalisation, new Labour controls through regulation. They are like reformed alcoholics: throwing out the old-fashioned whisky and reaching for a trendy new cosmopolitan cocktail. But the result is much the same—a "We know best" Government, and they love telling us about it.
Now we are told that it is time for the countryside to sit up and be thankful because there is going to be a new committee for rural affairs. That will have them setting up statues of the Prime Minister in Norfolk, Devon and Shropshire. The countryside is groaning in agony, and what does this gracious Speech give it—the right to roam, and of course a free hand for a Bill against fox-hunting. This is a government of urban dwellers for whom the countryside is a giant theme park on which to impose their values; not a place where millions of people live, and struggle in order to make a living. Who made the countryside what it is today? It was not Labour Ministers with three homes but working farmers, country dwellers and, yes, even caring landowners. They made the countryside what it is, but this Government hit them where it hurts; time after time after time. It is country people who know the value of the motor car; and thanks to this Government, they know the cost of driving, too. It has never been higher—not in any country of the world.
This gracious Speech contains as its crown jewel a transport Bill. Apparently, the Deputy Prime Minister has been fighting for this Bill for more than three years. A transport Bill will do nothing for the motorist and little for anyone else. What will the Bill do for all those older people who need a car to run to the shops and carry the shopping? It will tax them. What will it do for town centres and the small shops and markets when people take their custom elsewhere'? It will close them. The only people who will rejoice at a tax on town centre driving will be the owners of the out-of-town supercentres—Wal-Mart; Sainsbury; the big battalions that are this Prime Minister's favoured friends.
I warned yesterday about the potential size of the transport Bill. It is an incoherent Bill at the heart of an incoherent programme. What possible relation is there between the regulation of railways, buses and the
36
future of air traffic control? It is certainly not an integrated transport policy. The Deputy Prime Minister has been searching for that for three years and, like the North Pole in Winnie the Pooh's great expedition, it is yet to be found.
The gracious Speech shows that if the Government are the party of the people, it is certainly not country people. It is not the motorist. It is not savers, for whom this speech does nothing. It is not taxpayers, who now face a tax burden soaring ever higher. It is not teachers, who face new burdens in the classrooms. It is not families, who will find family life further undermined by the speech. Will this gracious Speech help any of those people? No, I think it will not. It is a speech that will give more power to the people who sit on the backs of other people. It is a Magna Carta for the regulators, the new agencies and the inspectors. It is manna to the single issue campaigners who bask in government favour. But on the great things that count—health, schools, choice and family— it is silent. It deals with fur and foxes and councils wanting to promote homosexuality to young children. But where is the concern for our old people and for those who are sick?
The Government now have an established character. It is a bossy, fussy, meddling character that is fully reflected in this incoherent and grossly overloaded gracious Speech. At home we see it in a political correctness running out of control. I detest bigotry and I loathe discrimination, but if the Government lose touch with the common sense of the British people in telling them how to live and breathe—whether about race or sexuality or about what they can think, wear or eat—they will be in danger of damaging the very objectives that they hold dear. One cannot enforce tolerance by restrictive legislation, by a mentality that sees evil and hears institutional evil where there is none. One cannot uphold liberty by banning things one does not like. The doctrine of subjective and selective liberty is one that is ultimately a threat to liberty itself. We should bear that in mind when we look at some of the provisions that we are promised in this Session of Parliament.
Among the measures at which we will want to look extremely carefully are the proposals on freedom of information. This amounts to a freedom to have the information that Ministers want you to have. We will be looking to extend the Bill and I hope that we will be joined by Peers from all sides of the House. We are also deeply worried by the restriction on the right to trial by jury. We know that the Prime Minister's mania for modernisation has run from Britain—last week to the Commonwealth, yesterday to the United Nations, and no doubt in future to the rest of the world. But are there not some ancient things worth preserving and is not the right to trial by jury one of them? I must warn the Government that they will have trouble from this House with the Bill.
My noble friend Lord Moynihan will wind up tonight on defence and foreign affairs. But having heard the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, I must ask what has happened to the ethical foreign policy. I salute the opening of the way to bring China into the

37
WTO. That will do more for the world economy and for freedom in China than a thousand homilies from the Chancellor or the Foreign Secretary. It could be one of the seminal events of our times. How ironic that it comes almost 10 years to the week of the crumbling of the Iron Curtain. We need constructive engagement with China. But did that justify the fawning and kowtowing to President Jiang Zemin on his recent visit, or the heavy-handed policing? I do not think so. All of us have in mind the unfolding tragedy in Chechnya. I also acknowledge the moving words of the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, on Kosovo. But what happened to the Blair doctrine? Has it been shelved because Russia is strong and Serbia was weak? Why is President Jiang Zemin as gut-warmingly good as former President Pinochet is gut-wrenchingly bad? Is it because China is strong and Chile is weak; or is it because the ethical foreign policy is so much humbug and hypocrisy? I do not mind Her Majesty's Government pursuing our national interest—
Lord Annan: My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord will give way on the question of China. Does he not agree that one must have some concern and understanding of China's position? There are two things which worry China. First, it wants stability and it remembers the horrors of the Red Guard and the Cultural Revolution of Mao. Secondly, it wants not to fall into the chaos that Russia fell into after the revolution of Yeltsin. That is why China is not as forthcoming on freedom of information and so on as it should be.
Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I have no trouble in agreeing with much of what the noble Lord has said. I welcome the moves to bring China into the World Trade Organisation. My point concerned the Government's stated objective. One of the first things the Foreign Secretary did when he came to office was to declare an ethical foreign policy. Increasingly, as the months and years go by, we are seeing more muddle, more humbug and more hypocrisy. I want the Government to pursue our national interests but I do mind when they set themselves up as latter-day Palmerstons; the world's gunboat diplomats, with a fraction of the power and none of the logic. Down that route danger lies. I should like to see that admission from the noble Baroness, Lady Scotland, when she winds up the debate later this evening.
This new imperialism of ideas will one day meet its nemesis. If a message is sent out that we will hit the weak and ignore the strong, then the weak will draw only one conclusion from that. They shall need to make themselves strong and doubtless our ethical Foreign Secretary will be happy to sell them the arms to do so. We would be wise to plough that furrow with a good deal more humility and caution than this Government have shown so far. We must live by international law or it will not only be us who rue the day.
We have begun the third Session of Parliament. The time for this Government to blame their predecessors is past. The time to say, "Give us more time", is over.
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The buck now sits very firmly on the desk labelled, "Prime Minister". We have reached the watershed of the first and, I hope, the last Blair government. This incoherent, interfering, regulating bossyboots of a Queen's Speech will make far more enemies than friends. Good. However, it will also do much to worsen life in this country and little to improve it. I regret that, because the Government have missed all too many of the issues that matter. This Queen's Speech advances the pet ideas of the few from the comfort of high office and neglects the concerns of the many in ordinary homes up and down this land. That is the reason why I have sought to move the amendment. It is an important step forward for this House. On Wednesday evening when the amendment comes to a vote I urge the House to accept it. I beg to move.
Moved, as an amendment to the Motion for an humble Address, at the end of the Address to insert "but regret the failure of Your Majesty's Government to reduce the burden of taxation and regulation and deplore the incoherence and the lack of vision of the measures proposed by Your Majesty's Government for the coming Session of Parliament".—(Lord Strathclyde.)
3.52 p.m.
Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank: My Lords, as ever, the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, has been robust and ebullient and was genial in his reference to the birthday of the noble Baroness the Leader of the House. However, when I consider his amendment, I wonder whether on this occasion he is being pushed from behind. Despite his reference at the start of his remarks and once again at the finish, I do not believe that the noble Lord's heart is in it.
I should like to quote from an article published on 17th November in the Daily Telegraph concerning the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. It stated that the noble Lord was to make a political comeback that had been planned by William Hague. The article stated that Mr Hague,
"plans to use the House of Lords to launch more aggressive attacks on the Government".
Party sources said that he would be,
"promoted to a prominent front-bench job within the next few months".
The article uses a telling expression, because all noble Lords know what the phrase "unidentified sources" means in such circumstances. The article stated:
"Although there is no threat to Lord Strathclyde … the former Scottish Secretary is set for a major post".
Finally, the same source said that it would be,
"unlikely that Lord Forsyth would be leader in the interim House".
If I were the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, I should be very worried indeed by those remarks. I believe that all noble Lords are familiar with them and know precisely what they mean.
However, we should not worry too much about the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. As I recall, his leadership as Secretary of State for Scotland resulted in no

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Conservative MPs being returned there at the last election. Equally—if I may distribute largesse in every direction and bring some comfort to the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde—if in the end his time comes and we must say goodbye to the noble Lord, he should remember the fate of the noble Lord, Lord GascoyneCecil, (if we may now call him that now) whose dismissal by William Hague a year ago made him a hero in this place and elsewhere. For that reason, I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, has a bright future ahead of him, either carrying on here where he is much loved, or moving to the Back Benches where his fame will grow daily.
I shall say nothing further about this "Scottish civil war" or the involvement of the noble Lord, Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish. Hitherto I had assumed that the noble Lord was deputy to the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde. It may be that if the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, has not got his eye on the position of the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, perhaps it is the noble Lord, Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish, who is for the chop.
A good deal in the gracious Speech could be opposed, and there is even more where an opinion may be reserved. We shall examine the Bills with very great care as they are published and play our usual part in their scrutiny. However, I put it to the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, that this is not the time for the Conservative Party to use its temporary majority in this House—a majority it holds only because of the Weatherill amendment—before the balancing of parties takes place. The Government are committed to that course. This is not the time for the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, to use a Conservative majority in order to defeat the Government. I shall explain the significance of that after I have given way.
Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, can the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank, explain to the House what majority he believes the Conservative Party has? I said in my speech that we now comprise less than a third of the House.
Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, will understand when I say that the Government's White Paper declared that there should be rough parity between the government of the day and the Conservative Party. However, it is absolutely plain from the figures that there is no rough parity now. Should all the other parties in the House abstain, the Conservative Party could defeat the Government if it brought in all its troops.
I put to the noble Lord a serious and important point: the time will come when the government of the day—and perhaps this Government in particular—will need to reconcile themselves to the fact that if we are to have a bicameral system, the government of the day will from time to time be defeated. My noble friend Lord Russell made that point in a debate last week. However, when that moment comes for the first time, it should be effected by a natural coalition across the parties of the kind put together by the noble Lord, Lord Ashley of Stoke, in the closing stages of the last
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Session. That is the point at which the Government must realise that that is in the nature of a second Chamber which is doing its job. However, I am afraid that the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, if carried, will not enable the Leader of the House to educate her Cabinet colleagues to accept an occasional defeat in this House. The Cabinet would dismiss such a defeat as due entirely to the temporary predominance of Conservative Peers over Labour Peers. I say that because I believe that the amendment standing in the name of the noble Lord distracts from this major constitutional issue that no doubt we shall see tested in due course in this Session.
It would be closer to the spirit of this House to seek agreement on the details of Bills by negotiation rather than confrontation. The real test will be if we can persuade the Government, as we should be able to do from time to time, to amend a Bill on the strength of opinion and the merit of argument across all the parties in your Lordships' House.
I return to a suggestion I have made in the past and which previously received absolutely no attention. I return to it not necessarily in the belief that it will receive much attention now. It is a suggestion in keeping with the roles of both Houses. I have long thought that there would be virtue in every Bill having a Second Reading in the House of Commons after it has been published. It would then approve the principle of the Bill, which is in keeping with the proper role of the elected Chamber. The Bill would then come straight here for Second Reading, Committee and Report stages. The government of the day would find it much easier to concede amendments on merit before the Bill has been through the other place. The Bill would then return to the House of Commons and the government of the day could amend it as they thought fit. So often our problem here is that Secretaries of State find it very difficult to accept amendments from this place if the Bill has already been through the other place.
I do not want to refer in detail to most of the legislative proposals in the gracious Speech, but perhaps I may make one comment about the transport Bill. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, that it is a large Bill. We take that for granted. He said—these are not his words— that it is a
conglomerate Bill. By that I mean that distinct and separate parts are embraced only by the umbrella of its Short Title.
There is to be the part-privatisation of air traffic control. I remember having some responsibility about 30 years ago for working out the legislative consequences of the Edwards report on civil aviation. The present role and structure of air traffic control services stem from that time. I entirely agree that there may be a very strong case for that structure being changed. A generation has passed. But I am not persuaded that the resources should not be found from the public purse— it is capital investment—rather than through the part-privatisation proposed. If it amounts to part-privatisation, we on these Benches shall

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certainly oppose it. However, within this large conglomerate Bill, we shall support anything which will genuinely improve public transport.
Having had some responsibility in that regard some years ago, I say again that we cannot improve public transport without additional resources. That is a message for the Chancellor of the Exchequer. There is no other way of breaking the circle. I speak now to the Conservative Opposition Benches: we cannot improve public transport without either restricting in some way, through parking and electronic pricing, the use of private cars or ensuring that those who use cars pay the full price for doing so. There is no way out. We cannot have it all ways if we genuinely want to improve public transport.
We shall return to this issue on Monday. There is much in the White Paper of July 1998 with which we can agree. I believe that the Government have made a mistake in the tone that they have struck. They should recognise three things. First, it takes a long time to achieve change in the transport area whether in terms of the railways, roads or public transport. It is a great mistake to raise expectations of short-term results.
Secondly, no government in Whitehall can possibly determine the hundreds of thousands of decisions made every day that determine the character and quality of the transport services we enjoy. Again, the lesson is: do not claim more than you can deliver. We all use the phrase "integrated transport", but it will be integrated only because many thousands of decisions take account of the need to do so—and most of them are beyond government control.
Thirdly, it is perfectly true that many of the decisions as regards transport policy in our towns and cities in particular are made by local authorities. The Government must not expect that their policies, determined at national level and agreed by Parliament, will necessarily commend themselves to all local authorities. There will be tension and sometimes local authorities will not fulfil the requirements of the Government or their expectations.
In 1976, the noble Lord, Lord Callaghan, recognised the importance and complexity of transport policy and recreated the transport department. It was a wise decision, as was his choice of Secretary of State. Today the Deputy Prime Minister has too much on his plate. I send this message to the Prime Minister: it is time to recreate a transport department under a separate Cabinet Minister. There is too much to be done.
I agree that there is a large agenda in the gracious Speech. It is a rather scrappy speech with no obvious theme. We all know that there is too much legislation. We cannot expect the Captain of the Gentlemen-at-Arms, the Government Chief Whip, to do as well this year as he did last year in managing to get through government business.
We welcome plans to extend the Race Relations Act, but we shall be deeply opposed to plans to curb trial by jury. We welcome the Bill to regulate the funding of political parties, but we regret that there are
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no proposals for fair voting in local government, which would do more than anything else to avoid corruption in local government including the institutional corruption of power.
I ask one question about the future of your Lordships' House. The White Paper referred to the Government being committed to further long-term reform of the House of Lords. That could mean that they are committed in the long term to further reform of this House. It could also mean that the Government are committed to further reform of the House of Lords for the long term. I assume it is the latter. When we reach the end of our debate next week, I hope that the Leader of the House will confirm what that means and that she will also say, as the gracious Speech does not, that once we have received the Wakeham report and debated it, she will move for the appointment of the Joint Committee of both Houses to which the Government were committed in their White Paper.
No one speaking on the gracious Speech at this stage can fail to mention Northern Ireland. I did so when John Major was Prime Minister. I expressed to him the good will of these Benches in his very difficult endeavours. We should not forget that he began the process which we very much hope is slowly and painfully coming to a conclusion. I also congratulate the Government on their perseverance and patience. They have done as well as any government could in the very difficult circumstances of Northern Ireland. I hope that they will carry with them the good will and support of the whole House.
I said yesterday that I intended to take an overall view of the gracious Speech and I explained why. I regret, therefore, that I am unable to comment, as I would otherwise wish, on defence and foreign affairs. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, that I hope that she enjoys the defence department as I did, although after a rather slow start in my case. The House looks forward to the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Scotland, who handled brilliantly her brief at Question Time and earned the applause of all sides of the House.
I regret that there was not more about Europe in the Queen's Speech. If I may give a message to the Government, it is this. We should all, irrespective of party, remember the historical contribution made by Harold Macmillan to the future of our country and its place in the world. It was he above all who recognised the need to turn Britain away from its imperial past and back to Europe, where its future destiny lay. I am very sorry if the Conservative Party has now abandoned that course. I hope that in due course it will return to the wise position adopted by Harold Macmillan so many years ago. After Harold Macmillan, the Labour government equally decided that we did not have the resources to be a world policeman, and we ceased our attempt to operate east of Suez. Those are good guidelines for us to bear in mind at all times.

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As I have said, there may not be enough about Europe in the gracious Speech. I believe that the Government are now rather lacking in momentum. However, I shall leave it to my noble friends to add their own thoughts on that theme.
4.11 p.m.
The Lord Bishop of Guildford: My Lords, it is a great privilege to speak for the first time in this House in a debate that is focused on the wider world. I was born in Hertfordshire in the middle of the last war and was brought up during the hard and difficult years of reconstruction following the war. Because of the circumstances, many young people of my age were not able to leave their towns and villages, let alone see the seaside, and were certainly not able to travel abroad. I made my first visit overseas as a 17 year-old boy on a school trip. How very different are the circumstances of our life today. We live in an international world, one that inevitably needs to be interdependent.
One of my tasks in my present role is to chair the board of Christian Aid. In that role, I had the privilege earlier this year of visiting Mozambique. As a consequence, I was led to reflect on a number of serious matters in our international development work and in foreign affairs. I was taken to the north of the country, to the heart of the area where civil war raged bitterly for nearly 20 years. I was taken by my guides to a mountainous area where, I was told, one of the parties to the war took prisoners of war up the mountain and pushed them over the cliff at the top. So traumatised were their widows and families that for some time afterwards they did not have the courage to go to find the bodies. When they eventually arrived at the place where the bodies of their loved ones had been thrown, they found but a few bones. Animals had eaten the rest. No war crimes commission is following up the perpetrators of those deeds.
However, both parties to the war in Mozambique made peace, and that peace has stuck. Such has been the development in Mozambique in the past seven or eight years that the country qualifies under the HIPC arrangements for debt relief. We in Christian Aid want to press on the Government that they should continue down the road of lifting the burden of international debt on countries such as Mozambique. There is still much to be done.
When visiting a place such as Mozambique, one sees how dreadful war is, and what a blessing peace is in our world and our ccmmunities. Christian Aid supports a number of partners that are working in some interesting programmes. One is a "swords into ploughshares" programme. It enables people to hand in weapons and have them replaced by the tools of development. Tens of thousands of weapons have been handed in through the programme, and continue to be handed in. My mind drifted to places nearer home and the business of taking weapons out of conflict, and to what can be achieved when people are committed to pursuing peace.
On my way out of the north of the country, I was taken to visit a village school. It was a mud hut. There were no desks, and no seats for the children. The
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school had one blackboard, one teacher, and 100 seven and eight year-old children. I asked the teacher through an interpreter what were his hopes for the next year. He said, "A second teacher". I asked what that would mean. He said it would mean 200 children in the school.
There is huge amount to be done in world development work. Agencies such as Christian Aid, working with the Churches and networks in areas such as Mozambique, and in collaboration with government here and elsewhere, have a huge amount to contribute in supporting the people in making peace and rebuilding their communities. It was a great privilege to visit that country, but I came away conscious of the enormous task that faces us in our international relationships in dealing with these matters.
4.16 p.m.
Lord Chalfont: My Lords, before making my contribution to the debate, it is my pleasure and privilege to congratulate the right reverend Prelate on his moving and distinguished maiden speech. It was even more impressive because of its brevity. Those of us who are familiar with the writings of the right reverend Prelate—notably a publication some 20 years ago entitled, God's People in God's World,—will not be at all surprised by his approach to international problems, and especially the problems of international development and aid. It has been a valuable experience for all of us in this House to listen to his words. I hope that I may be allowed to congratulate him on behalf of the whole House and express the hope that we shall hear much more from him in the future.
Perhaps I may also, even in her absence, add my congratulations to the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, on her birthday. She has a long way to go to catch me up, but as one who reaches a significant milestone of his own in about a week's time I wish her well, as I am sure do all those who are left in your Lordships' House.
In the main debate on the Address I shall not discuss the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde. I shall listen to the debate with great interest and decide what to do in that respect on Wednesday evening. Perhaps I may concentrate on one simple issue in the gracious Speech; namely, the statement that,
"NATO remains the foundation of Britain's defence and security".
It was echoed in the emphatic words of the noble Baroness, Lady Symons.
I confess to being slightly worried about the strength and stability of that foundation. Two aspects of the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, concern me. One is the new strategic concept upon which NATO operates or appears to operate; the other is the emergence in a rather precipitate way of the "European security and defence identity".
I turn first to the strategic doctrine. It is based on a document issued by NATO after the Washington summit in April. It suggests that NATO is no longer,

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as it was founded to be, a purely defensive military alliance. I quote the strategic concept which, as written, states:
"The Alliance not only ensures the defence of its members but contributes to peace and stability".
It goes on to identify the new threats, some of them not entirely military. I quote:
"[The] appearance of complex new risks including oppression, ethnic conflict, economic distress, collapse of political order".
All those are now taken to be threats to NATO to which NATO must react. The noble Baroness, Lady Symons, elaborated on that in her speech.
The new—tome—concept of the role of the military alliance has had some notable consequences, not least the apparent erosion in our international affairs of the concept of the sovereign nation state. It used to be the essential building block of the international structure. I make no value judgments about it, but they are facts. In the immediate past NATO has conducted invasive, military operations against a number of sovereign nation states: for example, Iraq, Serbia, Indonesia. Except in the case of Iraq, it was not that these posed any threat to the security of this country or that of its allies but because the international community disapproved of the internal arrangements of those sovereign nation states; their approach to the problems of human rights, ethnic divisions and separatist movements.
This new doctrine has been called, in the United States, the humanitarian war. It was referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, today as the imperialism of ideas. The doctrine may be admirable and desirable in the concept of what has come to be known as the "ethical foreign policy". But we must pause for a moment and ask ourselves: is this really the proper function of a military alliance? Are our Armed Forces really to be used as peacekeepers, providers of humanitarian aid and guardians of global human rights?
It is possible to hold that concept of what a military alliance is about. But if we do hold it, there are certain inevitable consequences which must be faced. First, there is a comparatively minor one, the impact on the organisation and training of our armed forces. That kind of concept involves the use of armed forces in small packets, small groups, as a kind of international gendarmerie rather than as military units and formations.
So in a few years' time, if this goes on, our Armed Forces will have no experience whatever of operating or training as formations in what used to be called conventional warfare. It does not do to say that they will never have to do so again. We do not know. I merely ask the Government to reconsider. For example, when was the last time the United Kingdom Armed Forces trained at brigade or divisional level? I think the Government would find that quite a difficult question to answer. However, I have no doubt that the officials in the Box will discover it before the time arrives for the reply.
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A more pressing and profound concern is this. As recently as last weekend, the Secretary of State for Defence admitted that the problem of overstretch was real. The noble Baroness, Lady Symons, admitted as much in her speech today. The Secretary of State admitted that it was causing serious problems. Of course it is, simply because, among other things, we are now asking the officers and men of our Navy, Army and Air Force to put their lives at risk, put themselves in harm's way, not to defend our country or its security, or that of our allies, but to engage in operations which are sometimes, I must say, of dubious legal justification and even more dubious moral justification, allegedly to protect human rights or to deliver humanitarian aid. As again happened in the House today, often we seem to take a pride not only in taking part but also in claiming a leading role in all that, being the leaders.
That may be how the Government see the future role of our Armed Forces and those of NATO. As has been said, whatever role our Armed Forces are given, they will carry it out with total dedication and commitment. Of that there is no doubt whatever. But if we are to accept this role for our Armed Forces— the role of global peacekeeping and participation in crisis conflicts all over the world—I say with as much emphasis as I can muster that we must be prepared to provide enough resources to meet the commitments. If we are to do all that, it seems to me we shall have to increase the size of our defence budget and restore some of the extensive cuts which have been made in the Armed Forces and their equipment. If we are not prepared to do that, there is a simple corollary. We cannot accept the multifarious commitments which are not the role of a defensive military alliance.
We now have smaller armed forces than France, Germany, Italy and Turkey. We spend less, as a proportion of our gross national product, on defence than France, Greece and Turkey. Our reserve forces are smaller than those of Spain and Turkey. There is nothing intrinsically wrong or shameful about that, but I submit that we cannot behave like a global power with the military resources of a minor European nation state. The Secretary of State for Defence, speaking of overstretch—the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, repeated it today—said that he would be addressing the problem. There are only two ways of addressing it. Any of the Government's military advisers will readily tell them, "You must increase the resources or reduce the commitments".
The second concern with which I shall deal more briefly is the implications of what is known as the European security and defence identity. Noble Lords will know that the seeds for it were sown at Maastricht in 1992. It was in Berlin and Brussels in 1996 that the foreign and defence ministers formulated and established the European security and defence identity. It was endorsed again in Amsterdam the following year.
We must remember that at Maastricht, when the seed was sown, Chancellor Kohl, the German Chancellor, said that the treaty was a new stage which,
"within a few years will lead to a United States of Europe".

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That was what the German Chancellor said about the Maastricht Treaty and the emergence of a common defence and security policy. We must regard this concept of the ESDI, the European security and defence identity, in that context. I have argued it before and I shall not spend time elaborating it now, but it can be argued that you cannot have common defence and security policies without single defence and foreign ministries. That would mean the end of NATO in its present form and the weakening of our links with the United States. My suspicions about the way we are going have been heightened by the declaration at St Mato last year when the British and French Prime Ministers agreed to go even further than the 1996 concept of the ESDI.
I know we shall be told that NATO has unanimously endorsed the strategic concept—it is not alone—and that it gives unanimous support to the ESDI. But because other people think that it might be a good idea for them, it is not necessarily a good idea for us.
These are not the imaginative ravings of a fanatic. I think everyone will agree that Henry Kissinger is a leading authority on defence and strategic matters. When he was in London recently, he told me that he thought that NATO was now thoroughly confused about its role. He lamented the abrupt abandonment of the concept of national sovereignty and expressed the fear, quite openly, that NATO and Europe were, by their actions and words, threatening to divorce themselves from the United States. These are real concerns expressed by people within NATO and all over the civilised world who know what they are talking about.
I conclude by asking the Government—perhaps in the light of earlier remarks I should say "joined-up Government"—to reassure the House on three specific points. First, are they in full agreement with that aspect of the new NATO strategic concept which gives the NATO alliance commitments beyond that of a defensive military organisation? Do the Government believe that it is one of the functions of NATO to conduct humanitarian wars, or the imperialism of ideas? Secondly, have the Government taken fully into account the implications which may lie hidden behind the superficial attractions of a European defence identity? Thirdly and most important of all, are the Government considering urgently how to match our military commitments with our defence resources? I say "most import ant" because if that is not done soon our Armed Forces, and therefore our national security, may suffer irreparable harm.
4.31 p.m.
Lord Jenkins of Putney: My Lords, it is a particular pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, on this occasion because I am in agreement with much of what he said. I have not always found myself in such a happy position. In particular, I echo his congratulations to my noble friend Lady Symons
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upon her birthday. She will survive many more birthdays looking as charming and being as capable as she is now.
Lord Chalfont: My Lords, perhaps the noble Lord will give way so that I may advise him, in the greatest friendship, that he has the wrong Baroness. Today is the birthday of the noble Baroness, Lady Jay.
The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Jay of Paddington): My Lords, it is my birthday and my noble friend's speech.
Lord Jenkins of Putney: My Lords, in that case I am doubly delighted. My admiration for the Leader of the House is already well known and does not need to be repeated tonight. We are fortunate to possess two Front Bench speakers who are able to combine feminine charm with a degree of conviction and ability that few outside this House enjoy. I also convey my congratulations to the right reverend Prelate who spoke of his personal experience. Whatever happens to this House following reform, we shall always want Benches of this kind. I am aware that the right reverend Prelates are examining their own position and perhaps drawing up proposals for reform. If so, in general the House will favour the maintenance of a Chamber that has respect for the particular reasons that they come here which are different from those that apply to most of us.
The debate takes place on a gracious Speech that deliberately ignores the basic position of the world as it is today. I sought to raise that matter at Question Time on Wednesday of last week. Instead of repeating what I said, perhaps I may quote the words of the noble Lord, Lord Peyton of Yeovil. The subject was the existence of massive reasons for fear. The following point has not been mentioned in the debate. In the past few years mankind has, for the first time, been in a position where it can destroy itself and civilisation. This is a new position. Can we continue to ignore the possibility that we may exercise that new power? If, as I venture to suggest, we are on the way to the end of our civilisation, much of the debate today will have the relevance of the saloon bar chat in the "Titanic" immediately before it hit the iceberg. The noble Lord, Lord Peyton, asked my noble friend Lady Scotland whether she agreed that it was,
"high time that one or more of those who aspire to be described as 'leaders of the world' should depart from their stupefying silence on the question of nuclear warheads, 40,000 of which are stockpiled around the world and threaten not merely the peace of the world but the existence of the planet".—[Official Report, 10/11/99; col. 1344.]
That is the context in which this debate takes place. Neither in the gracious Speech nor in the debate so far has anyone ventured to touch on the fact that we are in that position. For that reason, I am particularly glad to hear the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, echo my belief that NATO is wrong to try to take over the role of the United Nations and decide what international law is because that is the general position of NATO. We must ensure that we do not seek to take away that responsibility from the United Nations and place it

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upon an organisation which is basically within the power of the developed world and which, for that reason, ignores the interests of the third world.
Another question on which the Government have done an amount of work is whether we are in peril from an accidental occurrence as a result of the millennium bug. Again, why do we ignore the possibility of such a nuclear accident? As the noble Lord, Lord Peyton, has agreed, it could be completely disastrous. I am not sure about destroying the planet. However, general opinion is that such a conflagration of nuclear and other weapons could at least threaten the existence of life on earth and certainly that of humanity. In those circumstances, it seems wrong that we ignore the situation and refuse to attempt to deal with it. That is not the only manifestation of that refusal.
This is the third or fourth year of the Geneva disarmament discussions. This year there has been no effective discussion on the subject. Instead there has been continual discussion on matters of procedure: how shall the nations attack their work? One cannot avoid the conclusion that it is a deliberate means of refusing to tackle the real problem by the nations involving themselves in procedural matters about which they can talk forever.
In replying to the Question, my noble friend said that we have done our best to break through this barrier and discuss the question of international peace. I believe that we could do so if our heart were in it, and we were prepared to consider nuclear disarmament as an absolute necessity. But at present we still involve ourselves and the other nations in the procedural issue which prevents us discussing the specific problem.
Although I have been critical of some of the things my Government have done, I would not wish anyone to think that I believe that the Government have done no good. Most of the programme in the gracious Speech involves good policies and important proposals which need to be carried out. However, they need to be carried out with due consciousness of our situation. That is where the Opposition amendment breaks down totally. If I am critical in any way of the Queen's Speech, I am far more critical of the Opposition's amendment to it. I sincerely hope that the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition will consider whether he puts the matter to the vote. I hope that he will not do so. If he does so, I hope that noble Lords, not only on this side of the House, will tell him clearly that we do not need such an amendment at the conclusion of a debate of this kind.
The Duke of Norfolk: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down perhaps I may ask him this question, with all the respect that I have for his views on disarmament. Are we not in a wonderful position with NATO, and in particular with the power of the nuclear weapons of the United States underwriting decisions of the United Nations? Are we not lucky that we have
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NATO with its nuclear weapons, and the United States in particular, supporting the decisions of the United Nations?
Lord Jenkins of Putney: My Lords, if that is what the noble Duke believes, he is entitled to do so. But he would not feel that way if he were a member of almost any other nation in the world. The noble Duke would speak in vain if he sought to convince most of the peoples of the world that, because the United States is powerful and Europe is beginning to say, "We, too, want to be equally powerful", that resolves any dispute, or is a cause for gladness.
4.45 p.m.
Lord Watson of Richmond: My Lords, this is the first occasion on which I have the honour to address your Lordships' House. I wish to do so briefly on the theme of Europe, the Government's policy on Europe, on which there are two paragraphs in the gracious Speech, and on our possible membership of economic and monetary union to which there is no reference whatever.
I refer to the "honour" of addressing your Lordships' House because it is such. I am acutely aware of the privilege, the opportunity and the obligation of sitting in this House, as must any new Member who has been here during recent months. I have to share with your Lordships a sense sometimes of confusion. We heard in the debate yesterday about the reality of the world outside. The reality of the world outside slightly startled me because I have received endless commiserations on joining a House about to be abolished; it is clearly a source of misunderstanding. And there is even the occasional confusion inside the House. I was congratulated by a noble Member of this House who said most courteously that he was sorry that he could not remember my name but he was sure that I had been here for many years. I had been here for three days.
I make my maiden speech on Europe with some trepidation, first, because there is much wisdom and experience in this House on the subject. I have been much influenced in my views on Europe by people within this House—for example, the late Lord Rippon whose sharp common sense about our essential self-interest in the process of European integration was valued. I refer also to the views and experience of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins of Hillhead, under whom I served in the European Commission for a number of years and whose presidency there exemplified British leadership in Europe at its very best. I am also influenced by those with whom I have some disagreement and difference of views but whose opinions I much respect— for example, the noble Lord, Lord Marsh.
However, there is a second reason for some trepidation on my part. I know it is a tradition of your Lordships' House that even if a maiden speech plays with some controversy, it should not be partisan. I shall respect that tradition, and necessarily so for Europe transcends party divisions. What I wish to do

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is share briefly with your Lordships a few aspects of my experience in this area which, it is hoped, may illuminate some aspects of the subject.
My experience of the European Union, and this country's involvement in it, has been as a broadcaster; during the presidency of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, to which I referred, as a European Commission official; and now, as European chairman of an international communications business and a vice-chairman of the European Movement. Looking back over some 30 years, I am struck by the extent to which British attitudes have so often stemmed perhaps from a feeling that our language and our political culture are not somehow part of the process of European integration; that we are out-numbered; that the problem is not so much lack of economic convergence as the absence of political and cultural convergence; and that we are in a process where we are bound to lose or at least not win. All that can lead to a mixture of timidity and belligerence on our part. That is not an edifying combination and certainly not an effective one.
In practice, I have found that self-imposed sense of alienation and its consequences to be misguided. Before his veto of our first attempt to join the European Community, President de Gaulle said:
"Even with the best will in the world on your part" —
meaning our part—
"and no matter what promises you make—you are going to change things in our little club—something comfortable is going to be changed and I would prefer not to have it changed".
In practice, de Gaulle's premonitions of change were well justified. Indeed, many of the changes that we have wrought in the EU have changed things much for the better. Perhaps I may give two examples which I believe are linked.
First, we in the United Kingdom have greatly strengthened the European Union's commitment to an open trading system with the rest of the world. Today, the EU is the world's biggest exporter and second biggest importer. The American union and the European Union have approximately the same share of world trade. It is interesting that inside the EU, the United Kingdom and the Federal Republic of Germany are the biggest importers and exporters to the rest of the world. The UK has consistently strengthened the free trade and trade liberalisation policies of the EU and will no doubt do so again in the forthcoming WTO round.
Secondly— and I feel strongly about this—there has been an astonishing and heartening growth in the use of the English language within the EU institutions and between those institutions and the rest of the world; and with the language comes the political culture from which it springs. When I went to work in the European Commission in 1976, I was solemnly told that if I originated a document in English it would take one week to circulate within the Commission. However, were I to originate it in French it would go round in 24 hours. Today, English is the language in which most European Commission documents are originated: 43 per cent in
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English, 40 per cent in French. English is indeed the dominant language of communication between the institutions and the rest of the world.
That is no cause for complacency. Our effectiveness and enjoyment of the global economy and of the European Union needs much more multilingualism within the United Kingdom. But it would he wrong to underestimate the advantages which our language gives us in the construction of Europe. For some years I have been involved in the English Speaking Union; indeed, I shall soon succeed the noble Baroness, Lady Brigstocke, as its chairman. Since 1989 and the fall of the wall in Berlin, the English Speaking Union has opened 10 thriving branches in eastern and central Europe, with five new branches to be opened in the next few years. The driver, the motor, behind that expansion is that in eastern and central Europe English is seen as a language uniquely essential in a world and a European Union characterised by democracy, free enterprise and the exploding potential of electronic commerce and information technology.
Therefore, I believe that we should approach our role in Europe with great confidence. This is what our United States and Commonwealth friends wish us to do. History has been accelerating and this is a time to touch the accelerator, not the brake. Our influence can rapidly and beneficially grow; but to be exercised, influence requires opportunity. The hard fact is that we cannot shape what we do not join. Surely, the lesson of our uneasy, initially so long delayed, often timid and subsequently belligerent participation in European integration is that the race really does go to the bold and to the committed.
There is much concern in this House and elsewhere about ultimate destinations and final goals. The only goals we really need to fear in the European process are own goals. To commit ourselves outside economic and monetary union indefinitely or for two Parliaments would be a deadly own goal in our relationship with Europe. I hope that it will not happen; that future gracious Speeches will spend more than two paragraphs on our role in Europe, and that those paragraphs will be both determined and bold.
4.54 p.m.
Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, it is my duty and pleasure to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Watson of Richmond, on his excellent maiden speech. In a most genial way, he steered through highly controversial areas but in doing so sounded most objective. That is a great skill. I thought his speech a pleasant contrast with the slightly waspish tone of the first six minutes of the speech from his Front Bench. The noble Lord will forgive me for the adjective.
I, too, congratulate the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Guildford. He is an old friend. I greatly admire what he said and what he does for Christian Aid. He understands, perhaps as some theoreticians and great philosophers do not, that development begins with people and not with economic models, gigantic aid budgets, hydro-electric dams and so forth. The process comes out of the history and culture of the

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country. He understands that and I was delighted to hear the voice of truth and reason from someone who comes from the city of Guildford where I spent most of my life and which I had the privilege of representing in the other place for 31 years.
I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, who opened the debate, on her new, exciting job. I must apologise to her and to the noble Baroness, Lady Scotland, for a discourtesy, but for inescapable personal reasons I must leave before the end of the debate. I hope that they will forgive me.
I wish to concentrate on two phrases in the gracious Speech relating to international affairs. The first talks of seeking,
"to modernise the country and its institutions",
the second of taking,
"a leading role with our partners to shape the future development of the European Union".
I hope that they are interconnected—"joined up" is the trendy phrase—but I am a little uneasy about whether they are. Some of us may not like it, but we are all agreed that a radical modernisation of our institutions is being pressed upon us by colossal developments in the global order. The entire capitalist system is undergoing fundamental, revolutionary restructuring. Certain principles endure, but the world is changing very fast. Business, retailing and social relationships have been transformed by the Internet, cyberspace and so forth. In fact, that is not for tomorrow, it is yesterday.
It is dawning on the policymakers here and in other countries that our political structures must adapt to the new conditions. If power is being redistributed into the networks of existence and relationships, those who seek to govern must do so differently in the future. Let us hope that further reform of your Lordships' House will be part of the improvement and of the adjustment to new conditions. None of that is for debate today. Although we may have bitter feelings about the ways in which we should respond, most people concede that such change is taking place whether we like it or not.
I want to put a single, simple point. Is it not possible that the enormous pressures, which will change the lives of all of us, apply also to the European Union? The European Union is the child of the European Economic Community. It is a magnificent post-war structure. It was created for reasons some of which no longer exist: to keep western Europe from the communists; to stop the French and Germans killing each other; and so on. Those were admirable aims, many of which have faded. But it was created before anyone, except perhaps a few Pentagon officials, had ever heard of the Internet. It was created almost before the computer became a manageable part of life, and it was created much in the model of the old nation state writ large. The Monnet ideas of a Commission, of a Council of Ministers, and of nation states merging into a larger entity were magnificent, but they belong to an age of hierarchy and not to the age of the network into which we have now wandered.
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Therefore, I ask those who come down heavily on the allegedly dithering British for not rushing into every European project whether it is right that we should embrace every dot and comma of the proposals in present or future treaties concerning those projects and whether those of us who hesitate over some European arrangements that belong to yesterday rather than tomorrow are really so sceptical and dumb and to be dismissed as anti-European.
I listened the other day to a senior politician, who, I confess, is a member of my own party, telling us that we were dithering; that the British were missing the bus again; that the great European project was the only game in town, and so on; and that we should rush ahead and embrace it. However, when one sees some of the patterns and attitudes to which the European Union adheres, and which are pressed upon us, and compares them with the extraordinary vigorous and vibrant nature of this island and its economy, which is currently showing that it can adjust to the network age, one wonders whether we do not have a few more thoughts to air and to argue with our European colleagues before we rush in and accept their version of the project.
There are other views which we should have as a nation—indeed, which we are entitled to have as a nation—to press upon the architects of tomorrow's Europe. That sounds high-flown and easy, but it is not. We know that the pressures on our own lives, on the European Union and indeed on every nation state are extremely dangerous and difficult. All parts of our economic life are being globalised into a system of unimaginable complexity. Economics is pulling the world together; politics are pulling it apart. All kinds of new searches for identity are leading to intense attitudes towards local cultures and tribalism in its most extreme form. That is very dangerous.
The picture is of the economics of the world dragging us together and the politics of the world fragmenting and atomising us. Those are extraordinarily dangerous tendencies. If we simply buy the "bigger is better" argument and say that as soon as we all enter the European system all will be well, we are missing out the fact that all may not be at all well in a network age and that we may well have given birth to some extremely dangerous atomising and fragmenting tendencies which undermine the coherence and cohesion of our societies.
The choice was expressed rather well the other day by the leader of the Conservative Party at the CBI. He contrasted the "mammoth" way of thinking with the more agile and fleet-of-foot way required in the network age. He asked what had happened to the mammoth that was recently dug up from the ice: why did it die? Are we not to understand that size can be disastrously weakening and undermine the kind of agility needed? The truth is that just as we on this island cannot escape the fantastic pressures of competition and transparency coming from the global system, nor is the European Union able to do so. Our partners in the Union cannot escape the forces of competition which will be doubly strong in every area.

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The European Central Bank, a new institution, is trying to campaign in Brussels against the introduction of electronic money for a good reason. Electronic money will undermine the power of central banks to operate on the reserves of credit-creating banks. That, in turn, will undermine the precise control of the monetary system that central bankers like to impose. We were talking of that matter recently in your Lordships' House. The mood in the Brussels Commission is to place so many restrictions on e-commerce, on which we are about to legislate in this House and in the other place, that the liability of the seller on the Internet would be the liability of the law which operated in the consumer's country. As most e-commerce trade takes place across borders, those restrictions would kill e-commerce in Europe at birth.
Those are classic and unsurprising Luddite reactions to vast new technologies which will undermine the old hierarchical structures both of this country and of the rest of the European Union. Before we rush into enthusiastic endorsement of the European project, convinced that everything suggested to us is right and that our own doubts are wrong, we should pause and ask what structural institution will emerge from the dust that is neither so big as to be unaccountable and mammoth-like nor so small that it begins to break everything up. The answer must be the one institution that we know on a human scale which we can understand; that is, the nation state.
The more we move into the globalised age, the more sensible we should be to reconstruct and understand the limits as well as the strengths of the nation state: what it can no longer do in the economic realm where the individual is empowered; and what it can do in the realm of upholding the cohesion arid civic order of society. That is my plea: let us be good Europeans, but let us understand that not everything in the European Union is right, and not everything that the British suggest is wrong.
Furthermore, let us in this House in the future, both in the transitional House and in the House to come, do as my noble friend the leader of my party rightly says. We must scrutinise, revise and possibly add the tonic of a touch of accuracy to the present Government's proposals. Accuracy does not seem to be their terribly strong point. As my noble friend's amendment suggests, let us also add some vision. Let us not only revise and scrutinise; let us put forward new ideas and show that there are new gateways to open and new vistas of how governments should work in a free society. Above all, let us show what being a good European really means, which is not quite what is sometimes implied by the more enthusiastic acceptors of everything from Brussels, Paris arid Berlin, which may have many good motives behind it but is not always correct or perceptive.
5.6 p.m.
Lord Bramall: My Lords, I warmly endorse support for a changing NATO and look forward to studying in detail the new disciplinary arrangements for the
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Armed Forces mentioned in the gracious Speech. There was not a great deal else in the Speech about defence. Perhaps it was thought that no news was good news. However, as the noble Baroness has been kind enough to devote quite a lot of her speech to defence, I shall concentrate on that subject.
During the past decade, the Armed Forces have gone through a difficult and exacting time. There have been three major reviews. Each has had ongoing supplementary cutbacks in its wake, and there have been three—if not four—quite major campaigns, one of which certainly was major. Many of the campaigns were of considerable political complexity. I am sure all noble Lords will agree that the Armed Forces have come through all this with flying colours, carrying out their duties in an exemplary and selfless manner in the Gulf, in Bosnia and in Kosovo, where they stood out and shone as something of a redeeming feature in an overall campaign which, for a number of reasons—some of which have been mentioned this evening—future historians may judge rather harshly. They are now doing so in East Timor. The whole country owes them a deep debt of gratitude.
They now need and deserve a degree of cosseting, so lacking in the past 10 years, if their confidence and commitment are to be maintained and if full manning is ever to be achieved. Of the various reviews, the last, the Strategic Defence Review initiated by this Government, was in my opinion the best conceived and, generally speaking, the best executed. However, I believe—and I am sure that many noble Lords will agree—that just at a time when the Reserves are badly needed to do more, the size and structure of the Territorial Army have, for paltry savings, been messed about with and truncated more than was desirable or necessary. The noble Baroness will no doubt imply that I should know better, but that is my view.
I strongly believe that the Strategic Defence Review was on the right lines. It established, as recommended by the Chiefs of Staff, important principles about the scale and sophistication of conflict for which our forces must be organised, trained and equipped. It also established the extent and duration of any intervention or commitment that the country is likely to undertake and for which the Ministry of Defence must be prepared and for which it must budget. If our foreign policy initiatives can be kept, as far as possible, within those constraints, there would be a chance of matching the resources to the military commitment, which has not been achieved for some considerable time.
Historical experience indicates that for a variety of reasons governments of whatever political persuasion—this Government are manifestly no different from any other in that respect—tend to involve themselves as major players in the international scene. They become involved in totally unexpected and unplanned commitments without necessarily being prepared to provide the extra resources that the Armed Forces require to carry them out properly and afterwards to recover from them.
In the Falklands and the Gulf all untoward and extra operational costs were accommodated outside the defence Vote. However, recently, when answering

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a Starred Question, the Minister was a little vague as to how much of the £100 million extra costs for Kosovo—they were at least £100 million—and extra costs for East Timor, both of which were operations with a high political and humanitarian content, are to be borne outside the defence Vote.
Certainly the Strategic Defence Review has given the Armed Forces badly needed guidance for their long-term planning, which hitherto had been lacking. However, all those good intentions are in danger of being eroded and being made more difficult. Indeed, they have already been made more difficult by the Treasury's Parthian shot—I realise the noble Lord is sitting close to me—when it did not receive all it hoped for from the Strategic Defence Review.
Leaving aside any extra operational costs, the defence Vote is inexorably, arbitrarily and inflexibly being cut by 3 per cent compound interest each year. Throughout the 1980s, when the stretch was not as great as it is now, the Vote increased by 3 per cent in real terms from a much higher base line.
That is being presented as an easily absorbable efficiency saving. In the aftermath of a myriad of efficiency-saving exercises over the past 15 years in every conceivable area, and the increasing number of private finance initiatives which limit by contract the areas that can be cut back, if the Ministry of Defence is not to overspend, every budget holder, in practice, is forced by financial officers to find savings of that magnitude. That is having an effect on many elements of the defence budget, such as personnel, new equipment, accommodation and particularly on training, as my noble friend Lord Chalfont has mentioned. Formation training hardly ever happens now.
That is having a debilitating effect at a time when, as the noble Baroness admitted candidly, her Ministry is struggling desperately to correct and cure the services' manifest ills of undermanning (based more on poor retention than recruiting and overstretch)—a vicious circle, with one matter leading back to the other—and trying to enhance the confidence and commitment of those who serve.
Such a situation cries out for stability, which is the key by which to engender contentment and commitment.
The Army also needs more sustainable units, available for the arms plot and emergency duties. To help to achieve that there is a need to have fewer units exclusively earmarked for duty in Northern Ireland, where I believe the total is now 17,000. Drawing on my fairly considerable experience during the difficult 1970s and early 1980s, I believe that could and should be achieved now, however the peace process—it appears to be much more encouraging—develops.
Thoughts also turn to the Gurkhas, who have proudly led the British Army into both Kosovo and East Timor. They have served almost everywhere and have no difficulty in recruiting and retaining for 15 years or more. Another Gurkha battalion, or even battalion headquarters to command, if necessary, the
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independent companies, would make an amazing difference to the arms plot and the emergency tour intervals, which are now so wildly unsatisfactory. I hope we can be assured that there will be no more talk of starting to run down those invaluable extra companies until after 2005 when it will be known whether planned manning levels in the British Army can be achieved.
Finally, the other day I read in the newspapers of a European army. We must be clear what we are talking about. Of course, Europe needs to get its defence act together, as I have long advocated. We need to have the machinery within a pillar of NATO so that we can, if necessary, command and control our own national forces without necessarily having to rely on the United States, although I hope that the continuation of the NATO framework will always ensure that the United States remains deeply concerned about Europe.
With Europe in its present stage of political development, we have no need of a European force, separately recruited, uniformed and motivated like a glorified European foreign legion. That would be neither efficient nor satisfactorily democratically controlled. I believe it is more important to try to strengthen and improve the United Nations' planning, reconnaissance and limited operational control and machinery, which at the moment leaves much to be desired.
The Armed Forces are one of the finest jewels in the crown. I know of no national institution which has retained its reputation or which commands the respect and admiration of the public as well as the Armed Forces have. They have proved their worth and they have done their duty over and over again in the past 30 years. The Government recognise that and have set them on a sound path for the future. However, I hope that they do not allow endless debilitating cheese-paring and cost-cutting upheavals to reduce that efficiency and commitment. That would not be in the national interest: nor, in the light of what we owe the Armed Forces, would it be at all fair.
5.17 p.m.
Lord Desai: My Lords, it is tempting to speak on the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde. I could remind him of the burden of taxation during the time of the Conservative government—to say nothing about the burden of debt to income ratio. I could tell him something about the coherence, or lack thereof, of the entire economic policy of the previous government and how they lost control of the budget deficit. However, now is not the time to go into that. I am sure that on other occasions my noble friends will deal with that matter as it deserves to be dealt with.
I heartily endorse the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank, that the structure of business in this House should be reformed so that this House could act as a committee to the other place. The other place could deal only with Second Readings of Bills and in this House we could deal with the substantial amendments and debate.

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The three subjects before us today are closely interlinked. Indeed the interconnection of defence and international development is greater today than it has been for a long time. One of the reasons is, as the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, said in his excellent speech, that, although globalisation has integrated the world, it has at the same time politically fragmented it. The new wars that we are witnessing and have witnessed during the 1990s have not been the old conventional wars between two nation states—the Gulf War was an exception. By and large, states have waged war against their own citizens; there are civil wars, or wars waged by states which can hardly be called proper nation states.
In that context, war becomes a major reason for under-development and poverty. It is a major reason for famine and starvation. We have to look at our responsibility as a seller of armaments to countries—I do not think we should shirk that responsibility—and at our responsibility to build a structure of global governance, which will ensure that in the next century these wars occur less frequently and perhaps not at all. If they do occur, we must ensure that quick and effective international police action is taken by the United Nations. Lastly, whatever adverse consequences there are in terms of starvation and suffering must be quickly addressed.
In that context, it is important that we should recommit ourselves to the interrupted programme of reform of the United Nations. It was a great pity that the 50th anniversary was missed as an opportunity for a thorough-going reform of the United Nations. Today we are looking forward to the millennial meeting that the Secretary-General will have with the heads of state next year. We have an opportunity to look again seriously at the reform of the United Nations. Certain principles are at stake here which ought to be examined.
First, there ought to be a greater consistency in the way in which the United Nations deals with international crises. I very much agree with my noble friend the Minister that what we did in Kosovo was a noble thing. This is the way of the future. Humanitarian intervention will have to be undertaken by the international community on a regular basis. Of course it would have been better if the United Nations had been fully engaged in that process from the beginning, but the structure of decision-making in the Security Council is such that the United Nations cannot always accomplish speedy resolutions. There have been inconsistencies. We have had failures, and we barely succeeded in Bosnia and East Timor. It is very important that we re-examine the decision-making structures in the United Nations Security Council to see how we can ensure speedy and effective action.
In that respect, I am very worried about the new isolationism of the United States Congress, in terms of the attitude it is taking in relation to paying what it owes to the United Nations and about its rather careless attitude towards the CTBT. If we are to live in a uni-polar world and the United States is to be the one major power responsible, directly or indirectly, for
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supporting international action, then its attitude to these matters has to be very carefully examined. Anything that we can do to persuade our allies across the Atlantic that they should be more internationalist must be done. I do not think we can have a uni-polar world where joint action through the United Nations is needed if the United States is playing a rather erratic role and acting more or less how it likes, and neglecting to pay its dues.
One way in which we ought to re-examine United Nations reform is, first, to see whether the Security Council structure can be changed. Dare I mention in this connection qualified majority voting? My second point—and here I am following what the Inter-Parliamentary Union has put forward—is that we ought to examine whether the United Nations needs a means of consulting the peoples of the world. The United Nations Charter mentions the people of the world, but that has come to mean the governments of the world, who meet in the General Assembly. The people of the world ought to be consulted, either through the Inter-Parliamentary Union or through some other arrangements whereby we can have a swathe of opinion across the world, through NGOs, national parliaments or by other means. We should find out what the people think because what the people think is often not what their governments think. Many of the recent wars around the world have been caused because the people of the countries involved are often in conflict with their own governments. I think that is an urgent task.
There is another urgent matter, which was also mentioned by my noble friend; it concerns human rights. We cannot talk about economic development and poverty alleviation without adding the human rights component. No government can give me good healthcare and good living. I have to be able to ask for those myself. I have to be able to have a guarantee that I can have those things all the time and not just at the whim of a government. So while there are regimes which have performed very well in terms of healthcare, the provision of clean water and sufficient food and so on, one cannot guarantee that that will last.
Therefore, our vision of development for the 21st century must take into account that the poor not only need food, shelter and health, but also human rights. It is usually the poor whose human rights are most often denied and it is the poor who suffer when a state breaks down. Here I want to endorse very much the tremendously good action taken by my right honourable friend the Chancellor and by the Secretary of State for International Development in respect of the debt burden faced by many countries. But of course it is not enough just to cancel the debt. That is the minimal part of it. In many cases one might not want to do that. We have to ensure that debt cancellation is part of a complete programme of poverty alleviation and good governance. It is only when debt alleviation is used to enhance human rights and to alleviate poverty that we would be serving ideals on which the cancellation of debt movement has been basing itself.

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I want to say a word now about the WTO. Freer and more open trade is absolutely essential if we are to alleviate poverty in the world. Again, I am very glad that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for International Development has resisted the many rather negative messages coming from the NGOs, which have taken into their heads the notion that somehow international trade is a conspiracy by the rich to rob the poor. That is not the case. Indeed there has been as much opposition from the rich countries which want to protect jobs at home as there has been from misguided people with other objectives. I believe that the WTO is the most egalitarian international organisation that we have, and if the third world is to advance, it will do so through the WTO. I very much welcome the Government's efforts in this respect, and wish them good luck.
5.30 p.m.
Viscount Waverley: My Lords, reference by the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, to dialogue and the role of poverty alleviation in addressing security concerns is absolutely right. For this reason, for example, I welcome BG being given a gas concession last week for off the Palestinian coast—a matter of which I have some first-hand knowledge—as being a practiceal measure to assuage Israeli security and so create a greater opportunity for regional peace, stability and prosperity. I commend it to the state of Israel.
Those who wish to identify defining events this century need not look much beyond the revolution in Iran of 1979. To a great many, those events were overdue. Since then the affairs of Iran have been evolving, while retaining the ideals of that revolution. The United Kingdom, with its shared history, is currently laying down the foundations for a pragmatic, long-term relationship—a relationship built on solid foundations.
It is important to recognise that the viability of any future relationship will derive from political and economic endeavours proceeding in tandem. Not everybody is a true believer in the inevitability or desirability of this evolving rapprochement; some advocate that it is going too fast, others that it is not going fast enough. The reality is that it is progressing steadily and will stand the test of time. Key bottlenecks are being massaged and patience will be rewarded, with Iran resuming its rightful role as an influential world player.
In mid-February, Iran will be embarking on parliamentary elections which will determine its future direction and the speed with which change will take place. A lively debate continues in the run-up to those elections, which represent an opportunity for the electorate to declare once again their support for the reforms under way in Iran. Those elections, following as they do the local elections in February—the first in Iran's history—show how far Iran has come since the election of President Khatami in May 1997. Of course,
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there continue to be problems and obstacles along the difficult road of reform which the Iranian people have chosen, but they deserve our support.
However, there are two issues which impact on our domestic politics, which are troubling and which the Government may wish to subject to closer scrutiny. First, the case of espionage charges against the 13 Iranian Jews, which has been raised recently in this House and which all of us would like to see successfully resolved, could have been orchestrated to embarrass Iran and damage President Khatami's international image.
Secondly, certain MPs here in Westminster are supporting, and therefore providing legitimacy to, an organisation based in Iraq designated a terrorist group by the United States and others, including the United Kingdom. Those groups—the Mujaheddin-e-Khalq (MKO) and their political representatives in Europe and the United States (the National Council for the Resistance of Iran)—have as their raison d'être the destabilisation of Iran. This Westminster-based support is misguided, ill-informed and, with respect, should be stopped forthwith.
So much for the politics, now for the main course. I returned from Tehran this week having led a trade mission, ahead of a parliamentary delegation, in my capacity as chairman of the British Iranian Chamber of Commerce—a successful visit during which 50 per cent of the participants had successfully concluded their negotiations within the first two days.
Allow me, Minister, at this point to mention with gratitude Nick Brown, the ambassador, and his team, with particular tribute to Eric Jenkinson, the commercial attaché who facilitated the group tirelessly and most effectively.
The past year has been devoted to identifying opportunities, cementing relationships and harmonising working practices between the chamber in London and its counterpart in Tehran, headed by Mr. Khamoushi, all of which has enabled us to produce the solid foundation, working shoulder to shoulder, in the new working partnership. For example, we have identified an exciting programme of trade and investment exchanges and exhibitions for the year 2000. Importantly, we have also negotiated the final draft of an exacting MOU that encompasses many aspects of the UK's approach to Iran; the development of mutual beneficial co-operation and respect; the enhancement of further bilateral trade and services, together with development of transport links and joint economic co-operation with neighbouring emerging countries. Our chambers have a responsibility to help to achieve those aspirations.
Related success stories are already emerging, such as that of Shell International having concluded negotiations this week on the 800 million dollar Nowruz and Soroush oil project. Shell and the state of Iran are to be congratulated and we can look forward to the long-awaited development of Iranian assets for the benefit of the people of Iran.

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Of course, there are other practical ways, in my mind, beyond purely oil and gas activities where the United Kingdom can assist. I could identify public-private partnership initiatives (PFIs) for example. Those models would sit well with any future privatisation programmes and it is an area where the United Kingdom leads the world. There are opportunities to share our experiences, encourage technological exchange and help to provide what really matters—jobs, health facilities and education.
In addition, we can and should support Iran's aim to be a transport and distribution link between the European Union and the markets of neighbouring states, particularly CIS countries. None the less, two issues which are holding us back must be resolved. First, the now unnecessarily lengthy visa processing procedures and, secondly, the establishment of full ECGD cover. Both constraints are associated with the revolution's aftermath and the time has come to move on. I hope that both those issues will benefit from the Foreign Ministers' forthcoming exchange.
Undoubtedly the time is right for some diplomatic give-and-take gestures. Two trade-offs come immediately to mind. First, an investment promotion and protection agreement and a double taxation treaty should be explored, together with, and secondly, UK officials being available to assist Iran to make the economic adjustments necessary for a successful application to join the World Trade Organisation. We could play a constructive role in recommending what reforms should occur before the processing of the application, while simultaneously lobbying the United States to withhold censure.
In conclusion, there is a lot at stake. It is essential that our Ministers start obtaining first-hand knowledge of Iran. It is worth noting that the BBC and the Financial Times will shortly be opening bureaux in Tehran, which will also play a necessary and significant role in clarifying perceptions.
I have already drawn attention to the upcoming Foreign Ministers' exchange and that should be followed quickly by the respective Trade Ministers. It is probable that the current difficulties FCO and DTI officials are having in calling on senior officials in Tehran would ease. That would have the added benefit of encouraging dialogue on areas of Iranian policy that remain of concern to the United Kingdom Government.
5.40 p.m.
Baroness Park of Monmouth: My Lords, as the Defence Committee has said, we need to acknowledge explicitly that choices about our military capability limit our capacity to be a force for good. if we are not to fall back into the situation of over-commitment and overstretch of our Armed Forces from which the SDR was designed to free us and which I believe it tried hard to do.
We indeed have over-commitment. We have over 4,000 engaged in [FOR in Bosnia and some 6,000 to 7,000 in KFOR in Kosovo, both open-ended, unaccompanied, demanding operations. We are now
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to help put in place by 2003 a European rapid reaction force of up to 40,000 men for future peacekeeping and humanitarian crises, fully equipped and capable of rapid and, if necessary, sustained deployment. It is not clear how this relates to the joint rapid reaction forces which, according to the SDR, will cover,
"all military tasks for which the need to provide forces at short notice, including to NATO's Allied Command Europe".
We should never forget that Russia has not actually gone away and remains a nuclear power capable of turbulence and aggression.
The EU force apparently includes, as well as non-EU NATO members such as Turkey, contributions from the 15 EU states, some of which are neutrals outside NATO, so there could be serious conflicts of interest. If the Kosovo and Bosnia operations are anything to go by, the UK contribution will be one of the largest and will be a major commitment to yet another operation likely to be run by committees of Foreign Ministers and media advisers, but this time without our serious ally, the US.
But that is not all. The SDR said that we would also make a much larger contribution of our front line capabilities potentially available to the UN for humanitarian and peace support initiatives, including,
"all of our rapidly deployable forces".
This is now reported to be a formal treaty commitment, though I have not yet heard it debated in either House. Can the Minister confirm whether it is indeed true that we have signed a memorandum of understanding committing the UK to contribute up to 15,000 front-line soldiers and Royal Marines to a UN stand-by emergency force at short notice, to say nothing of helicopters, destroyers, frigates and an aircraft carrier? I ask because this has been reported in the press and I know only too well that the press can get it wrong, so I would like to know what the facts are.
According to press reports the MoD has said that this means only that "some of these resources" could be made available. Is it at all likely that when the time comes we would feel free to say that we never really meant to do anything? It is disturbing enough that we should not only be committed to peacekeeping now in Bosnia, Kosovo and East Timor but should be making further commitments, this time to a UN force—yet another open-ended operation. Serious difficulties arose in Bosnia while the military role was subordinated to the UN civilian authority, and they are no doubt arising again in Kosovo, as they did in the Congo nearly 40 years ago. The military needs a clearer mandate to operate effectively. That is never going to come from yet another committee in New York. With all these interesting and demanding tasks, when is training going to be done, and who will there be left to train? Not least, will they have the time to train for the strategic defensive war which they were meant to fight?
So we are already in a vicious spiral of over-commitment and overstretch and in serious trouble over retention. The Government are only too happy to use our forces as one of their most powerful political weapons without being prepared to invest in them. Yet

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the SDR expressly said—and rightly—that it was vital for the confidence of the forces that plans should be properly resourced. It also said that it had a policy for people, and the MoD has indeed been listening and consulting, not least the families, for it well understands that unhappy families are a serious threat to retention. But the problem is money, and it is difficult not to conclude that in the desperate efforts that have to be made by the MoD to achieve 3 per cent savings annually, as the Treasury requires it to do at the very time when it has more tasks, not less, everything not at the sharp end is likely to suffer. Unfortunately the Government themselves have evidently still not understood that the families, let alone the soldiers, are being pushed to breaking point, and unhappy soldiers—those who do not divorce—leave the forces.
The previous government acted without consulting; this Government consult but do not act. Action costs money. I sometimes think that the only way for the wives to get action, as distinct from leaflets and task forces, would be to declare themselves single mothers, as in effect they are for most of the time. Then this caring society might actually listen to them and support them. Telephone calls are fine, but houses fit to live in are better.
I am not attacking the MoD but the Government, who allow the Treasury to practise endless false economies because defence, they are proud to say, has moved from 2.7 per cent to 2.4 per cent of GDP and is still expected to save money while the tasks are piled on. The previous government, as part of their infamous Treasury-driven bad bargain over the sale of the married quarters estate, promised to ring-fence £100 million for the upgrading to standard 1 condition of the houses in which service families have to live. Over 50 per cent of these did not even reach standard 2 condition and many were much worse. That money was to be in addition to the £40 million per annum already being spent by the MoD on upgrades, apart from £128 million a year on maintenance.
So what has happened? The £100 million has been doled out by the Treasury—£28 million by 1997–98, £20 million 1998–99 and I suppose in theory, according to a Written Answer, £20 million for 1999–2000. Can the Minister confirm that the £20 million due this year has indeed been handed over, as the families have been told that the upgrading promised for 2003 has now slipped to 2005? Can the Minister say why, if this is not lack of money? I want to make it plain that I believe that both the services and the service Ministers are doing their very best to take all the action they are free to take to deal with the often disgraceful conditions in which families have to live. They know, after all, what dire effects these have on retention, taken with turbulence and the fact that a very large percentage of all service today is unaccompanied.
The fault lies, I believe, with the Government, who want a splendid army on the cheap, who rely on service loyalty and who have evidently decided that service wives and children are not real people like the rest of the population. Why else could they leave many of
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them, nearly four years after the sale, still living in squalid, damp, dilapidated properties both at home and abroad? In Germany families are living in such quarters next to homes fully refurbished by the German Government for refugees. In Cyprus, 35 TA families have been sent to live in the same quarters, with corrugated iron roofs and no heating, as many service families have lived in over the past 30 years.
Five years from the sale of the estate I believe that a rent rise is not unlikely. What MoD vote will pay for it, and will the Treasury, which has received money from Annington Homes, increase the budget accordingly? Will the MoD ensure that the Armed Forces Pay Review Board, which sets married quarters charges, is fully aware of the deplorable condition of many quarters and will take that into consideration?
If time allows, I could tell your Lordships much more about the way service families have to live. For example, the MoD's Defence Housing Agency has a natural housekeeping instinct not to spend more money than absolutely necessary on properties likely to be handed back to Annington Homes. It is, after all, not obliged to return property in a full state of repair; that is, without any dilapidation at all. It is only obliged under its under-leases to return properties in good tenantable repair. Therefore the MoD will not be liable for repairs for minor dilapidation. Under existing laws, tenants cannot be obliged to repair properties that are shortly to be redeveloped.
The effect of this prudent provision is that many families are living in thoroughly unacceptable conditions because the MoD does not wish to spend money inadvertently on properties which might be due to be handed back. There are instances where it is refusing to take action on properties not due to be handed back for another two to three years. That is understandable but is extremely hard on those families who live in them, who should surely, like all others living in below-standard quarters, qualify for some abatement of charges.
But there are other equally alarming aspects of the life service families face. The Defence Medical Services is on the point of collapse. The MDHUs are seriously under-staffed and are not able, because of the NHS overriding right to beds, to do their duty of sending injured service men and women back to their units fast, where they are particularly badly needed now. Instead they have wards full of geriatrics. From the point of view of the families, the imminent closure of Haslar, the only military hospital left, means considerable anxiety about where dependants hospitalised from overseas will be accommodated.
It is nothing short of mad to announce the closure of Haslar before the Centre for Defence Medicine, which is supposed to take its place, has been established. It is in no way surprising that since that announcement, to quote the latest Defence Committee report,
"staff have been haemorrhaging from the DMS at an alarming rate".

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Failure to get the centre established could in the view of the committee imply,
"no less than the collapse of the DMS".
The damage to the DMS was first done in Front Line First, but ever since there has been a continuing failure to recognise that this is a military service with a military ethos and military specialisms which people join in order to serve the forces. Its failure hits every serviceman, damages the confidence of families and will be yet another nail in the coffin of retention.
Money alone will not necessarily solve this problem, but it can help. The Government are doing their very best to do something about the Defence Medical Services but, alas. it may be too late. What worries me is that they did not need to close Haslar.
Where are the two hospital ships, one promised as a matter of urgency, for instance? What is being done to ensure that those medical staff who have chosen a career in the Defence Medical Services rather than the NHS do not find that they have suffered as a result, not only in terms of constant overstretch, turbulence, stress and anxiety, but even when it comes to pensions? We all know that what is happening to the DMS is yet another serious blow to morale and retention. Families and servicemen alike see the medical services collapsing.
I greatly admire the Minister's speech and I respect her real and most effective commitment to the forces. But I ask her: how can the Government, in these circumstances, enter into more and more open-ended, unresourced overseas commitments, all unaccompanied, when many families and, by extension, many men are stretched to breaking point?
Finally, I should like to ask the Minister how many members of the services have already given notice that they wish to take retirement in the coming year. I am told that the figure is around 10,000.
5.51 p.m.
Lord Hylton: M y Lords, I was glad when the noble Baroness who opened the debate mentioned Chechnya. However, it was a very brief mention—almost a reference in passing. Since that part of the world is in Europe, the issue needs a little more development. I hope that we shall have more detail when the Government reply to this very long debate.
The history of e past 200 years explains why such strong animosity exists now between Russians and Chechens. In the last century, it took the Russian imperial power about two whole generations to conquer Chechnya. During the Second World War, Stalin deported the entire population to central Asia, causing an untold number of deaths in the process. It was only some years after that dictator died that the Chechens were allowed to return home. The war of 1994–1996 left towns and villages largely devastated and the infrastructure in ruins. Kidnapping—however much one may deplore it—therefore became a means of economic survival for some people.
Since late September of this year we have seen a renewed Russian military offensive. Once again, villages and towns are destroyed by artillery and air
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attacks before the army occupies the ground. Few efforts seem to be made to protect the civilian population. On the contrary, after some 200,000 people had fled into adjoining Ingushetia, the Russian army imposed strict control on the only exit road, allowing a mere trickle of refugees to pass. Meanwhile, another 4,000 have gone to Georgia. But only yesterday a report came from Georgia that three Russian helicopters had been seen dropping anti-personnel mines along the frontier. If correctly reported, it is a very sinister development.
The offensive appears to have been indiscriminate, brutal and disproportionate. Against this background, UNICEF called on all parties to respect the rights of civilians and to allow free movement for all, particularly women and children.
Even assuming that the Chechens were responsible for this year's bomb explosions in Russian cities—which is by no means proved—Chechen casualties already exceed Russian ones by a factor of at least 10 to one. One may ask what is the purpose of this operation? Does anyone really know? Is it to kill some, to cause others to die of cold and hunger and to drive the rest into exile? If so, that is a fairly good description of genocide and should not be tolerated.
Some may argue that these matters are technically part of the internal affairs of the Russian Federation. None the less, they affect the whole of Europe because Russia has obligations to virtually every European state, as agreed under the Helsinki arrangements and through the Council of Europe, of which Russia is a member. If international humanitarian law is violated, all of us are affected. Even from a purely Russian perspective, the present course appears self-defeating. I say that because decimating the Chechens is sure to fan the flames of Islamic extremism. Already there are reports of fighters arriving from such countries as Afghanistan and Pakistan to help the Chechens. It will also put the interests of the remaining Russian minorities in central Asia greatly at risk.
I am glad that Her Majesty's Government have raised the issue of Chechnya with both the EU and the OSCE. We know that these bodies have expressed grave concern, but that by itself seems inadequate. Will the matter be discussed at the forthcoming OSCE summit meeting in Istanbul? I know that President Meri of Estonia will not be attending because he so disapproves of the Russian action in Chechnya. Coming from someone in his position, that is very significant.
If diplomats and heads of government fail to secure explanations and a commitment to peaceful solutions, it will be necessary to find other ways of achieving those ends. That must surely start with a cease-fire and negotiations, whether mediated or not, and with the strongest possible efforts in the direction of conflict resolution. I trust that more will be achieved at Istanbul than was achieved in Budapest in 1994 when Sarajevo was shelled while the OSCE was in session only 100 miles away.
I wish to emphasise that I speak as a friend and a s a visitor to Russia. I declare a charitable interest as chairman of an English trust working through Russian

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partner organisations for the benefit of children and young people in the Moscow region. I want to see Russia as a full member of the European family of nations. I want to see civil society and the rule of law replacing Soviet-style authoritarianism.
I am therefore glad to note that Mr Chernomyrdin, the former Prime Minister and party leader of "Our Home is Russia", while supporting the present Russian Government, has said:
"Russia should help refugees and save people in Chechnya. This is our sacred duty".
He went on to say:
"In the final count we must hold a political dialogue".
Mr Yavlinsky, the leader of the Yabloko party, has said:
"The concentrated bombing of Chechnya must stop. The land offensive must be suspended. Talks must begin. The Russian military success in Dagestan established the pre-conditions for a political talks process".
I urge Her Majesty's Government to use these positive statements as a base for securing a cease-fire and for peaceful solutions.
5.59 p.m.
Baroness Hooper: My Lords, I welcome the opportunity to participate in particular on the international development and foreign affairs aspects of the debate. In this respect, the gracious Speech stated the Government's aim to modernise the United Nations. I hope that we may hear more about those plans from the noble Baroness when she winds up the debate. I also take this opportunity to express the hope that any modernisation of the United Nations will be thought through more thoroughly than the efforts to modernise your Lordships' House, which we have had the misfortune to experience during the past year.
The gracious Speech also stated the intention of the Government to work towards a new partnership between Britain and the overseas territories. I trust that the debates held in your Lordships' House in recent years and, in particular, earlier this year will have helped the Government in formulating their policies and in dealing with the numerous outstanding issues, as well as in giving the people of St Helena as speedily as possible the passport rights that they need. I suspect that the noble Baroness, Lady Scotland, will have a particular interest in this matter in view of her own departmental responsibilities in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.
I suspect that it will come as no surprise to your Lordships if I focus my remarks today in particular on our relations with Latin America. In doing so, I lament once again the absence of my noble friend Lord Montgomery of Alamein. So often in the past he has reminded successive governments of the importance to this country and to the world of the countries of Latin America, not least in the debate which he introduced in your Lordships' House in June this year. We miss his presence and his expertise, but I know that even now he is in South America—in Venezuela—and that he will continue to take an interest in proceedings in your Lordships' House.
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On the political level, there have been recent welcome breakthroughs in Latin America; for example, the triangular agreement between Argentina, the Falkland Islands and ourselves made in May this year. That agreement resolved the few outstanding tensions which remained following the Falklands War. Other examples are the resolution of the border dispute earlier this year between Peru and Equador, the development of relative stability and comity in Central America, and the opening-up of Cuba. I hope that developments focus much more on the Spanish-speaking as well as the English-speaking Caribbean as a region for development. I believe that in that respect the United Kingdom has a particular and important role. We have also seen the strengthening and development of the regional organisations in Latin America, such as Mercosur and the Andean Pact. Sadly, however, we still have an outstanding problem with Chile, but I hope most sincerely that that may be resolved speedily.
On the positive side, the democratic systems are now well established everywhere. Admittedly, there are some danger flashpoints—in Venezuela, Equador and even in Paraguay, where there are trials of strength between the Congress and the President. In that respect, I believe that the work of the Inter-Parliamentary Union and any ways in which we can encourage more contact between representatives of parliaments in that region and our Parliament are welcome and very important.
At the time of the Rio Summit in July—the EU-Mercosur Summit—we heard that, on his first visit to the region in that capacity, the Foreign Secretary had useful meetings with leaders and Ministers and that he was most enthusiastic. At last, I believe that he fully appreciated the potential benefit for this country in consolidating and improving our relations with Latin America. Therefore, I hope that the noble Baroness will be able to reassure us that her right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary is planning to visit that region soon for face-to-face meetings with the new presidents of Argentina, Chile, Uruguay and, in due course, Mexico. There may be others because at the moment there seem to be elections everywhere.
The importance of trade and the role of the WTO are issues which have already been touched on during the debate. I wish to emphasise the importance of our trade and commercial links with Latin America. We can say that we are among the major investors in many countries in Latin America. Indeed, in Mexico we are the largest European investor. Our trade balance there is second only to that with Brazil and it has been considerably enhanced as a result of the European Union/Mexican trade agreement. For those who are not aware of the sophistication and development of the Mexican economy and industry, perhaps I may give an example. It may not be generally realised every time one is overtaken on the road by the new Volkswagen Beetle, that vehicle is produced entirely in Mexico.
There are also some interesting developments in relation to healthcare, spearheaded by the Latin American Trade Advisory Group. I mention that

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group as an example because it has a number of projects on the go: it has plans for a scoping mission to investigate with Mexico's largest healthcare provider the ways in which our experience in this country, our institutions and our academic centres can be of use in their proposed reforms. I understand that the East Anglia National Health Trust is an adviser in that project and that DfID is putting it together. I believe that the co-operation between DfID, the Foreign Office and the DTI provides an interesting example of joined-up government.
Brazil has the largest population and the largest economy in Latin America. Indeed, I believe that it is not sufficiently well known that the economy of one province alone in Brazil—that of Sao Paolo—is equal to the economy of the whole of India. There has been good growth in our trade with Brazil. Until 1997 we had more trade with Brazil than with China. That has declined in the light of recent economic crises, but as the economy picks up next year I am confident that so too will our trade. It may also be of interest to your Lordships to know that whenever you are overtaken on the road by a Fiat Palio, you can point to the fact that that is produced entirely in Brazil.
Argentina is the other major economy which deserves special mention. It is worth noting that in recent years the United Kingdom had more exports per capita to Argentina than to any other Latin American country, in spite of our difficulties in the South Atlantic. It.is to be hoped that in future that will improve. The economic crisis in the region has also caused difficulties. However, I believe that hope for better things to come lies in the recent elections, the installation of the new president in December, and the developments of Mercosur, which includes Uruguay and Paraguay as well as Argentina and Brazil.
There are many exciting projects in the region, with particular targeting on the health and education sectors. Again, it may be of interest to your Lordships to know that currently there are some 3,400 students from Latin America at our universities. LATAG—the Latin American Trade Advisory Group—currently is tracking 1,700 of them with a view to taking full advantage of the resource and future potential that that trend offers. Here again, I should very much like to underline the valuable work of the British Council. I hope that no spirit of false economy on the part of the Treasury will lead to further cuts in the British Council budget. By the same token, I express the hope that there will be no diminution in either the numbers or activities of our energetic and expert diplomats in the various posts in Latin America. That is very often a threat, and we must guard against cutting the activities which currently are going so well.
In the next two weeks I shall be away from your Lordships' House leading a trade mission to Peru and Chile, an arrangement that was made well before the dates for our new Session were known. It is fair to say that most of our major companies—in the chemicals industry, mining, pharmaceuticals, the energy sector and the utilities—are represented in Latin America and can probably cope well enough on their own. However, it is much more difficult for small and
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medium sized businesses—for example, consultancies—to start to take advantage of the opportunities and market openings offered by the Latin American economies which, taken together with the historic links and good will felt for this country throughout the continent, can be of great advantage to us as a trading nation.
I hope that the Department of Trade and Industry will continue to support the kind of trade missions that have increased over recent years and have brought valuable results. In that respect, and returning to the detail of the gracious Speech, I hope that, in introducing a Bill to promote electronic commerce, the Government will bear in mind the importance that that will have for our leading financial institutions and the financial service industry in general, both in the City of London and elsewhere, in developing their services not only in Latin America but throughout the world. I hope, therefore, that the widest possible consultation will take place.
In conclusion, I wish to state that I support my noble friend Lord Strathclyde in the amendment that he has proposed, although his reasons for moving it relate less to foreign affairs and international development than to the other proposals in the gracious Speech.
6.11 p.m.
The Lord Bishop of Birmingham: My Lords, perhaps I may begin by craving your Lordships' indulgence if I have to leave before the end of the debate. I have an engagement early tomorrow morning in Birmingham which I cannot break. Brevity of speech among your Lordships will secure my attendance to the end. But if we go on at the present rate, I think that I shall have to leave before then. It makes me wonder whether on an occasion like this there might be something to be said for limiting speeches to, say, 10 minutes. That should be enough for most people.
Today's Order Paper says that the debate is expected to concentrate on defence, international development and foreign affairs. But where, I ask myself, can one find anything in the text of the gracious Speech on international development? My fears were reinforced in the opening words of the noble Baroness when she said that we would be talking about defence and foreign affairs. International development had slipped out of the quotation.
There are, to be fair, a couple of crumbs. First, there is the Government's promise to support,
"work to improve the effectiveness of the European Union's … development programmes".
But surely there is more to international development than making the programmes of the European Union more effective.
Secondly, there is the promise to,
"take further measures to meet their target of abolishing child poverty in 20 years".
That is a welcome and admirable, if utopian, target, but one that can be realistically considered only in the context of the wider economic and political relations which make for child poverty and which could make for its eradication. So, after the rather restrictive

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perspective of the text of the gracious Speech itself, I was a little reassured when the noble Baroness, Lady Symons of Vernham Dean, said a little more later on in her spoken text about international development in general.
One looks with gratitude back to the Government's 1997 White Paper Eliminating World Poverty. I remember hearing this time last year the speech given by Clare Short, the Secretary of State for International Development, to the General Synod of the Church of England. The Churches certainly appreciate the part played by successive governments in trying to tackle the issue of world debt, which is inseparably linked to the wider issue of world poverty. We appreciate the difficulties of mobilising action on an international level. We must bear in mind the recent reports on the reluctance of the United States Congress to support President Clinton in the pledges that he has made on this matter.
So what am I saying? The Churches deeply appreciated the energy and commitment of the Secretary of State and her department. Perhaps I can be expected to say that since I am Bishop of Birmingham and the Secretary of State is one of Birmingham's most beloved Members of Parliament. We also appreciate the attention given to the issue of debt by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. But if one looks at the gracious Speech as a whole, one cannot help asking how high are the issues of world debt, world poverty—not just child poverty—and international development in the Government's overall list of priorities. Rhetoric is not enough.
International development is not someone else's issue. It is ours, not least because world poverty, as has already been said, threatens the stability and security of us all. But there is also the question of justice. The year 2000 is a year of jubilee, a year in which, in biblical tradition, debts are to be remitted and slaves set free. So may we please hear something more about the Government's plans for pursuing the issues of the remission of debt and the releasing of resources for the elimination not just of child poverty but of world poverty? It would be good to have some reassurance that the Government have not forgotten about their own Department for International Development.
Having spoken about the comparatively low profile of an entire department of State from the purview of the gracious Speech, I should now like to comment on something which is plainly present on the face of the speech. I refer to the Government's clear commitment to introduce a draft Bill to ratify the statute establishing an international criminal court. The Churches certainly welcome the opportunity that that will provide for consultation. The creation of an international criminal court will represent a historic achievement, a deeply significant advance in the recognition and establishment of moral and ethical standards in the international community. One of the weaknesses of international humanitarian law so far is that, despite the impressive body of law which has evolved since the second world war, there has been no
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permanent mechanism—only ad hoc institutions—for enforcing it. The establishment of the international court, by putting a mechanism of enforcement onto a permanent basis, can be expected to change a culture in which humanitarian law and convention have been too readily flouted, not least in the increasing readiness to target civilian populations in times of conflict and war.
It is, of course, deeply regrettable that two members of the Security Council—China and the United States of America—were among the small number of states which voted in Rome last year against the establishment of the international court. Is it significant that they are also two of the countries most addicted to capital punishment? So it is all the more important that the British Government, after playing a major part in the negotiations which led to the statute, should be among the first to seek its ratification. However, two questions arise. First, will the Government be able to give assurances that they do not wish to opt out of Article 124 or Article 94 of the statute? Article 124 would allow a state to opt out of the jurisdiction of the court for seven years while Article 98, by leaving the door open for bilateral agreements, would allow individuals to evade extradition.
Secondly, will the Government assure the House that they will maintain diplomatic pressure on the United States to sign the statute? The historic reluctance of the United States to recognise the jurisdiction of international courts and international institutions which it does not control is well known. Nevertheless, without the assent and participation of the United States of America the authority and effectiveness of the international criminal court will be gravely impaired. One is bound to say that the nature of American commitment to the cause of human rights would, in practice, be called into question.
6.19 p.m.
Lord Thomson of Monifieth: My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Watson of Richmond on his admirable, indeed brilliant, maiden speech. Like my noble friend, I, too, shall draw attention to a curious aspect of the gracious Speech as regards Europe. The gracious Speech states that:
"My Government will take a leading role with our partners to shape the future development of the European Union".
It outlines a number of altogether admirable ways in which this will be done:
"They will promote the enlargement of the Union, support co-operation in the fight against cross-border crime and work to improve the effectiveness of the European Union's Foreign and Security Policy and its development programmes".
However, it is the item that is missing that is curious. There is not one word on the single currency. In this debate I wish to put the argument that the Government will not be able to fulfil their aim of continuing to play a leading role unless they take the lead in persuading the British people to join the single currency.

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We are now within a few weeks of the end of the century. For mo.-e than one-quarter of it we have been members of the European Community. The lessons of that experience are plain to see as we enter the next century. A simple one is that membership of the Union does not involve abandoning the defence of British interests. On that I hope that I carry the consensus of everyone in your Lordships' House. Other member countries fight their own corners. Mrs Thatcher, our Prime Minister as she was then, fought a battle over our share of Community financing and won for Britain a rebate. The other countries recognised, however reluctantly, that she was right.
I recall the wise remarks of a Dutch Commissioner in the far-off days when I was a member of the European Commission. "My dear George", he said, "there are two countries in the Community which are stubborn about defending their national interests. One is France and the other is Britain. But a word of advice", he added. "France always describes her opposition to anything being proposed by the Community as a betrayal of Europe. Britain always makes it appear as though Europe is betraying Britain. That is not the best way to get results". I am sure that he was right.
A second obvious and outstanding lesson for Britain over the whole period of our relationship with the European project has been simply this: it is better to be in at the beginning. My experience as a Commissioner in 1973 of establishing the Community's first regional development fund provided ample evidence of the crucial advantage for Britain of being in at the birth of a major new policy. In the search for objective criteria for helping underprivileged areas, Britain's distinctive problems could be given appropriate consideration. No doubt if the regional development fund, like the CAP or the common fisheries policy, had already been in existence and reflected the circumstances of the six countries before Britain joined, together with Ireland and Denmark, all three countries would have been at a disadvantage.
It is depressing that we have failed to learn this simple lesson over the whole saga of economic and monetary union, the exchange rate mechanism and now the single currency. In my judgment, the stark fact is that if we are to continue as a leading country in the Union, British participation in the single currency is essential. Inevitably those running the single currency in the European Central Bank are already making administrative decisions to meet the needs of those inside while Britain remains outside. The longer we remain outside the more we will find, as has happened before, that we shall join something created by others to reflect their interests. Nor should we be complacent about how long our present capital of goodwill and influence in the Community—fortunately it is substantial under the present Government—would last if through a referendum or otherwise we were to decide to remain outside the single currency.
History never repeats itself, but there are similarities between Britain's hesitations in the early 1970s and now those of the late 1990s. In both cases they will be
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resolved by resorting to a referendum. In 1970 when I was a Minister for Europe in a Labour administration I was involved in producing a White Paper that attempted to prophesy the economic consequences of British membership. I recall describing the process as like trying to forecast the uncertainties of a Dundee United football match. In the event there were many economic troubles for Britain in the transition to full membership. There were also inevitably major unforeseen international economic developments such as the Arab oil crisis. However, despite the difficulties, the referendum produced a massive majority for continuing membership. Twenty-five years later the economic benefits of membership have been undeniable. However carefully we arrange the timing, moving into the single currency is likely to produce its own awkward economic aspects in the short term. However, the long-term benefits, as in 1973, will be substantial. We now have 60 per cent of all our trade with the European Union, and Britain, with its world business language, is a prime attractive area for inward investment.
I shall mention one final lesson for Britain. Throughout its history an essential characteristic of the European Union has been the importance of what is known in Brussels jargon as the political will. The European Union was created as an economic community. Today the majority of its operations remain economic, although the foreign policy, defence and home affairs pillars of the Union outside the jurisdiction of the Commission are becoming steadily more important. However, all the economic achievements of the European Union have had their foundations in political decisions of historic significance. The Coal and Steel Community, which combined the heavy industries of Western Europe, was an act of political will with the political aim of bringing about a Franco-German reconciliation after two catastrophic European wars on the basis of joining their heavy war-making industries.
Messina, in 1955, setting up the Common Market, was an act of political will of breathtaking audacity, to which at the time Britain was unbelievably blind and from which we subsequently suffered. From the beginning the underlying aim of the European construction has been political and not economic. Politicians in Britain who have expressed a similar point of view to mine have been accused of concealing this fact. However, I do not believe that the public declarations of those of us who were involved in taking Britain into Europe in 1973 are open to that charge. Like others, I have made scores of speeches about the political role of the European Community in making inconceivable the great European wars of the past and in enabling Europe in the future to pull its united weight in world affairs in a way now impossible for any single member nation.
In a European Union of ancient nation states the concept of surrendering national identities to a superstate is an unreal fantasy. Equally unreal, however, is the concept that Britain can make the other member states rewrite the treaties. That seems to be the current policy of Her Majesty's loyal Opposition. "Europe à la

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carte" is a Conservative fantasy. Malcolm Rifkind, a former distinguished Foreign Secretary, said that the idea of a universal opt-out was totally non-negotiable.
The Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting—CHOGM—has just concluded in South Africa. My small niche in the history of such matters was to have been Her Majesty's last Secretary of State for Commonwealth Affairs and one of the first European Commissioners. I have special reasons to be aware of the upsetting truth of Dean Acheson's remark that Britain, in creating an independent Commonwealth, had lost an empire and needed to seek a new role in world affairs. I believe that role has proved itself to be a major player in the European Union. If we take our opportunities, it is now perfectly reasonable to conclude that we could within a decade be a player of central significance right across the European board.
We are fortunate that the standing of Britain among its European partners is high at the moment and that the British economy is in good shape. The case in principle for joining the single currency enjoys the support of a broad band of leadership across Britain in politics, in business and in the trade unions. But in circumstances where the referendum is now an accepted instrument of political decision making, and where there is a vociferous and xenophobic section of the press, there is much to do to inform public opinion not only of the case for the single currency but much wider than that; namely, to bring home the general benefits of membership of the European Union for British people.
If the Government are to enjoy the leading role that they seek in Europe they must work to ensure the same decisive majority in the next European referendum as in the last one in 1975. I was involved in that in those far off days. I recollect that that result was achieved despite having a divided Labour Cabinet. One of today's advantages is that there is now a united Cabinet as regards British membership of the European Union. For the sake of Britain and Europe let the Government make the most of it.
6.31 p.m.
The Earl of Sandwich: My Lords, I stand here grateful to be elected—by the grace of God as well as by my Cross-Bench Peers—to your Lordships' interim House. The first Earl of Sandwich was a survivor of two stages of reform, first entering Cromwell's upper House without a title and then earning one after helping King Charles II back to his throne. Whatever our origins as Peers, let us at least agree that after these and many other lessons from history, we can all be reformed by gradual evolution.
Recent anniversaries and the approaching millennium again remind us of our place in European history, as we have just heard from the noble Lord, Lord Thomson. We have remembered countless dead on the battlefield and in the camps. We have looked back to the dramatic collapse of the Iron Curtain and of the Cold War. It is a time to be thankful that we have
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resisted tyranny in this century and have not been tyrannised ourselves. Our enlarging European Union must continue on the principles which were solemnly laid down by its founders after the war.
Yet this Government have a much wider and more ambitious agenda. They are committed to justice on an international scale and to the rights of the very poorest to the benefits of this earth. Even as we strengthen Europe we must simultaneously consider the claims of those who may thereby be weakened and the needs of those who stand to lose as we gain. For example, Oxfam tells us that 8 billion dollars a year would ensure that every child would at least have primary education. That is less than the sum we spend each year on computer games or, apparently, 1 per cent of the wealth of the world's richest 200 people.
So how do we reconcile these two concerns—our obligations to Europe and our commitment to the third world? One way would be to maintain our existing promises of aid and investment, but that is not happening. Overseas development assistance, the world's combined aid programme, fell to as low as 0.22 per cent of gross domestic product in 1997—such is our global estimate of the importance of development. Although our own Government commendably are trying to reverse that trend, let us face it, we shall not be able to make a lot of difference.
What about investment? According to the United Nations world investment report, published in September, FDI world-wide is increasing, but the share of the developing countries has fallen from 37 per cent in 1997 to 28 per cent last year. Most of that investment is going to countries such as China and Brazil and hardly any to the poorest countries such as those in sub-Saharan Africa. Africa receives only 5 per cent of all FDI to the developing countries.
Yet, paradoxically, Africa offers a higher return on investment than anywhere else. That may be why a US-based group has recently announced the largest ever private equity fund for Africa. It was encouraging to hear the Prime Minister, among other leaders at the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in Durban last weekend, announcing new initiatives on good governance, civil society, human rights and AIDS.
But is the United Kingdom doing enough to encourage investment in African enterprise alongside people-based development? There is nothing in the gracious Speech about Africa, as the right reverend Prelate said. There is hardly any mention of development, although the noble Baroness referred to it. Apart from the work of the CDC and the Crown Agents, backed by the DfID, I do not see much evidence of any emphasis in government policy on investment in Africa. No doubt the Minister will respond to that. I welcome the attention to be given to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child.
This Government's support for HIPC-2 has been mentioned and is commendable. However, it is more show than reality for all but a handful of countries.

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Even after Cologne we have yet to see whether debt relief will be translated into genuine health, education and social services. The example of Uganda has been encouraging. Mozambique is also in line for substantial debt relief.
Perhaps I may add my personal congratulations to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Guildford, with whom I have the honour to serve in Christian Aid, for giving us such stirring memories of the war in Mozambique. If these countries can maintain the necessary political stability for economic growth, more young people will be healthy, educated and trained for productive work, and the more likely it is that outsiders will want to invest. Of course, there are many serious obstacles to development such as AIDS and mine clearance which have to be overcome along the way.
But against the background of political uncertainty in much of Africa, the Development Assistance Committee's international development targets look almost unobtainable. I support the targets in principle. I am sure that everyone does. But I wonder how soon the DfID will have to draw back from its own enthusiasm in its primary aim of halving the number of people in poverty by the year 2015. One or two senior economists, notably Professor Robin Marris, have suggested that they should provide that.
Work carried out in Uganda this summer by the Overseas Development Institute and Makerere University shows that while primary education targets may well he met, those for poverty will not. Extreme poverty has continued to decline in Uganda in the 1990s against the national trend of recovery. None of the current projections will achieve the halving of absolute poverty by the year 2015. The growth rate required to achieve it—nearly 5 per cent per annum in terms of real consumption expenditure—will have to be three times the average forecast by the World Bank for sub-Saharan Africa.
However, Uganda has surprised many people in its ability to bounce back from former disasters. We must hope that these predictions are proved wrong. One thing that they show is the near impossibility of making sensible forecasts because of the limitations and inequalities in data. Uganda's poverty eradication action plan is also more robust than most others so we cannot take that as representative of sub-Saharan Africa as a whole.
The gracious Speech mentions Europe. Are we doing enough through the European Union to target the poorest countries? I fear we are not, which may be why it has been mentioned. I have only to quote the International Development Committee report of last January which stated that the composition of European Union development assistance was "astounding" and that none of the top seven recipients was even among the least developed countries. So far the Government's response to that has not been very convincing.
Many seasoned aid-watchers and NGOs long ago concluded that the benefits of aid transfers were exaggerated and that more vigorous trade between
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Europe and the third world—in this context I speak especially of Africa—has more effect than any aid or debt relief programme. But let us look at the recent EU record there. While we have been busily defending the quality of our prime English beef, under the CAP we have also been dumping our beef surpluses on the poorest African countries, first in francophone West Africa and then in sub-Saharan Africa. A report just published by 15 European church aid agencies, entitled Europe's Blind Spot, indicates that imports of European Union beef to South Africa rose seven-fold in the early 1990s, reducing prices to 30p a kilo, thereby damaging regular suppliers such as Namibian cattle farmers.
Agenda 200 proposals are not making matters any easier for third world farmers. This year the European Union has found a new dumping ground in Russia, with similar dire consequences for Russian farmers. Meanwhile, the protocol of the Lomé Convention which guarantees limited quotas of African beef exports is due to expire in February unless it can he extended. I know that the Government are working hard in that direction. Not surprisingly, the church agencies point to breaches of Article 130 of the Maastricht Treaty, which requires policy coherence—that is important in the context of the European Development Fund and European policies generally—between the European Union's Europe and development policies. Similar arguments apply to chocolate, fisheries, and the other products that come under Lomé where Europe is undeniably poaching on other national territories. Much depends on the attitude of the World Trade Organisation as it develops standards which are bound to favour the industrialised countries.
The forthcoming Seattle meeting will show whether the interests of the third world and the least developed countries are being taken seriously or whether only countries such as China, where the potential value of trade with the West is so important, will be listened to. There are great fears on the part of some developing countries that the multilateral agreement on investment may return in another form after Seattle.
In the long run, as the noble Lord, Lord Desai, said, poverty eradication in the third world will come from domestic factors such as security, peace and political and economic stability, and, to a lesser extent, the prospects of outside aid and investment. But, equally, we must not ignore the benefits of not just free trade but fairer trade and the damaging effects of our own Euro-centric plans on those fragile economies.
6.42 p.m.
Lord Stone of Blackheath: My Lords, I realise that for alphabetical reasons I must often follow the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, but it is not fair. He always says things that make me think again, and I have to alter furiously my prepared speech.
I was particularly pleased to note that the Government intend to help modernise the UN and the Security Council and to adapt NATO for the new

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century. This whole programme of legislation attempts to address the massive and rapid changes occurring in many spheres of activity.
Three areas of transformation interest me; namely, in business, in domestic constitutional affairs, and in international politics. In all three, we are faced with complex and, to some, threatening change. In business, where I know it best, change is based on electronic communication, the production and flow of goods and better-informed customers. All of us in business have had to find new structures and new ways of working to address those apparent threats and turn them into opportunities. Believe me, I have experienced that organisational change. It is painful, but necessary.
I turn to the second area: constitutional change. I thought when I came to this House that I should find tradition, tranquillity and stability. But the Government had the foresight to see that the constitution, which has always been fluid in the United Kingdom, also has to move with the times. They initiated a wide range of liberating policies that continue with the current legislative programme.
It is in the nature of change that it cannot be entirely predictable and controlled. It must be put in motion to find the most appropriate settlement. The transitional House is part of that movement, and I hope today to set it a challenge to show its teeth in its new form.
I want to suggest that the Government can make a contribution to new thinking in the third area of dynamic change created by the new technologies—war. Global politics and conflict are also in flux. Unfortunately, possibly as a reaction to globalisation and the redrawing of borders and boundaries, smaller nations are finding difficulty in governing and balancing the democratic demands of majorities with the rights of minorities. Within all this confusion, individuals search for their own identity. In many, a passionate sense of their own ethnicity re-emerges and ferments to the point of hatred for others, resulting in conflict and war.
So here again, this time in the nature of conflict, there has been a massive global change. The majority of disputes are now ethnic in nature; wars are increasingly within states rather than between them; and civilians, not soldiers, are the main victims of war.
At the NATO meeting in Brussels last week, a surprising number of even the most conservative people present were willing to accept that maybe we are living in a new world. Altered dynamics need the formation of different structures and innovative solutions. In all three areas of change—business, domestic politics and international affairs—new approaches are needed. Their adoption will bear risks but pay rewards.
What characterises the change in all three areas is that the dynamics are of such complexity and diversity. A major ingredient, therefore, to lessen the risk in dealing with each of them is cohesion in action and cooperation. Change must be achieved, but with inclusiveness and continuity, mobilising all involved.
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Great businesses are doing that with flatter structures, breaking down hierarchy towers within their company, adopting enlightened leadership and mobilising the workforce. In running the United Kingdom, politicians and civil servants are now working closely across departments, and the electorate are being consulted and informed.
In the area of global conflict, where that complexity and diversity is at its greatest, I am pleased to see that the FCO, the DTI and the DfID are also working together. Those of us with some experience in international trade have been asked to help and join in the work with NGOs and academics.
So how do I propose to put this transitional House to the test? The issue is this. The nature of the change in global dynamics has in the past few decades shown up inadequacies in our structure of world government. The enlightened formation of the current international bodies and structures put in place earlier this century to help police the world and prevent war between nations were addressing a different paradigm. The new paradigm needs new thinking. Public opinion is already changing in response to what people are now able to see in real time unfolding on their screens.
This year has been exceptional in that there have been two successful interventions into sovereign states in conflicts within their borders. Although they were at a late and bloody stage, those controversial actions saved lives. Many experts in this field are convinced that thousands more lives could be saved in the future if we reviewed and revised the international bodies and protocols and the mechanics in the light of the new global dynamics.
Many, many people have contacted me since May, when I suggested in this House that something new might be done. They have given me sufficient cause to believe that the United Kingdom Government could take a lead. None of them feels able to move things forward on his or her own. What they do believe is that your Lordships have the expertise to consider, debate and propose solutions.
Among the issues for consideration are sovereignty and intervention. These need to be re-examined. Perhaps that will even require change to the United Nations Charter as indicated in the gracious Speech.
As regards prevention, real, practical and immediate links are needed between the investment already made, in the UN, in early warning systems for threatened conflict and the options for preventative action.
Thirdly, an integrated approach is needed. As the effects of wars on any continent now affect us all with greater immediacy, there may be an opportunity to enlist the co-operation of all affected bodies: governments, non-governmental organisations and academics. And we must include big businesses, which now sometimes control more people and bigger budgets than many countries.
This House is now composed of Peers, whatever their political hue, who have been asked to serve here because of their own expertise, acquired in their own lifetime, and Peers who have been elected for their

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wisdom and ability. I realise that a debate in this place on the subject that I have outlined would bring forth from such a body of expertise some scepticism and caveats. We shall point out the risks and cite the problems. I know that there are no quick fixes to halt the spread of violence and death.
However, what I now know from having observed this Chamber and listened to your Lordships in other crucial debates that positive pragmatic suggestions will be put. Insights on a vision of a new world order and pointers as to how it might be organised would emerge from such a debate. The House would suggest to the Ministers, my noble friends Lady Scotland and Lady Symons, ways in which the world community might respond if Her Majesty's Government were to take a lead in such an enlightened project.
This gracious Speech contains a full and crucial programme that we must try to complete, but I hope that time can be found to consider and debate the wider long-term issues.
6.49 p.m.
Lord Bridges: My Lords, we are now halfway through this Parliament, so the debate provides an opportunity for a mid-term assessment. My contribution will be an examination of a key element of the Government's foreign policy—its ethical purpose. I note that a number of noble Lords have already spoken on the subject, but I shall follow a different line.
To begin with, the ethical foreign policy was outlined by the Foreign Secretary in launching his mission statement for his department shortly after his appointment on 12th May 1997. Mr Cook concluded with the words that the mission statement,
makes the business of the FCO delivery of a long term strategy, not just managing crisis intervention. It supplies an ethical content to foreign policy and recognises the national interest cannot be defined only by narrow realpolitik.
How far, we may ask, has that aspiration been achieved?
The relation between ethics and foreign policy is a topic which has worried me for some time. It has, indeed, been a central issue for practitioners of diplomacy since President Wilson's Fourteen Points of 1917, the first of which was,
Open Covenants of Peace, openly arrived at
I recall an episode when I was a Private Secretary in the Foreign Office in 1963. The Secretary of State was Lord Home, who had attracted public attention by his remarks about the double standards employed by some members of the United Nations in their criticisms of Britain. It was, therefore, no great surprise when a letter arrived for him at the office from the Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, inviting him to address the assembly on the general topic of "Ethics and Foreign Policy". The Earl asked me to prepare some notes for his speech. The more I thought about it, the more difficult the task became. I was also increasingly aware that Lord Home could write a much better speech on the subject than I could. So I regret to say that I adopted a subterfuge. I
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drafted some notes for him which took a strong line that there should be no connection between ethics and foreign policy. Lord Home was in the middle of a long aeroplane journey from Karachi to London which took 14 hours. As I had hoped, he was so angry that he demanded pencil and paper and produced the draft of an excellent speech, which he subsequently delivered to the Church of Scotland. However, he preferred to shift the emphasis slightly to consider ethics in the life of the nation rather than the policy aspect.
More recently, the issue has come to the fore again. After retiring from the Diplomatic Service at the statutory age of 60, 12 years ago, I was appointed to a fascinating voluntary part-time post as Chairman of the National Committee for UNICEF. I therefore share some of the experiences that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Guildford mentioned in his moving maiden speech earlier.
At that time, the organisation had just completed the negotiation of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which is mentioned in the gracious Speech. Its dynamic American executive director, Jim Grant, had succeeded in arranging a world summit for children, attended by over 100 heads of state and government, to approve an action plan to implement the convention. Each prime minister was allowed three minutes to speak. Our own Prime Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher, made a powerful and effective speech which lasted six minutes, but no one dared to interrupt. The United Nations secretariat had not then located—or since, so far as I know—the Manhattan equivalent of the noble Baroness, Lady Farrington of Ribbleton.
The contribution which most caught my attention was made by the President of the then Czech and Slovak Republic, Vaclav Havel. In the course of his speech he said
Terrible things have been done in the name of children.
By that he meant that during the Nazi occupation of his country during the Second World War, many Czech citizens had felt obliged to continue working for the government of occupation, as the only means of providing support for their children.
That introduces a fresh element to the argument. An act which seems morally justified to the person taking a decision may have profoundly repugnant effects in a broader perspective. Thus the individual Czech may have felt an obligation to look after his children, but he had also supported a tyrannical and evil regime. One may argue, I suppose, that there is a difference between the ethical decision of a person and that of a state, but I do not believe that it disposes of the problem.
Another large problem in this area of policy is that no agreement exists on the nature of the ethical principles which apply. To take an extreme case, if you had been a fly on the wall at the villa on the Wannsee outside West Berlin in 1941, when the Nazis decided to exterminate the Jewish population of central Europe, you could not have avoided the impression that, for the participants, the aim of racial purity was an ethical principle in their eyes. Ethics may be broadly defined, I suppose, as a set of moral principles. Nothing seems

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more immoral to us than the Holocaust, but that is not what Himmler and his acolytes believed. Ethics, it seems, is a word capable of very diverse interpretation.
If we are to adopt policies which are deliberately framed in ethical terms, we need some broad international understanding of what this actually means, if our policies are to gain acceptance and have effect. To take a current illustration, the Government decided, to their great credit, that the ethnic cleansing of Kosovo could only be arrested by intervention on the ground with military forces. No one doubted the evil nature of what was happening. But there was no consensus in the United Nations which would enable us to obtain a copper-bottomed legal authority in the shape of a specific mandate from the Security Council. That point was debated on a number of occasions in this House.
The Government stuck bravely to their guns and persuaded sufficient important partners to join in. We know that the operation was a military success and has enabled the Kosovars to return home, although the ethnic cleansing has continued in the reverse direction.
The difficulty was and remains that Kosovo is part of Serbia and the United Nations charter underlines respect for national sovereignty as its underlying principle. Nevertheless, the ethical foreign policy has scored a notable success there, even if the legal basis for our action was, in President Roosevelt's splendid adjective, distinctly "iffy". Anyone who has doubts on that score might turn to The Times newspaper of Tuesday 16th November which contains an authoritative article by a legal expert which puts it beyond doubt that we had no legal basis in international law for what we did. We may have had a moral basis, but no legal basis.
This matter has come to haunt us, as we are faced with in many respects a similar situation in the case of Chechnya, which is not an independent state but an associate republic within the Russian Federation, with autonomous status. The Russians, infuriated by acts of terrorism within their own lands, which they believe to have been perpetrated by Chechens, have invaded Chechnya for the second time in a decade, with the dreadful consequences we know.
How, one may ask, should an ethical foreign policy apply in this case? Do the Government intend to follow the Kosovo example and send in our splendid troops to restore the land to its indigenous inhabitants? I hope not. Happily, I see no sign of that happening. Evidently, the need for moral consistency does not apply, and it should not, as Russia is a nuclear power, and Serbia, so far as I know, is not.
In this case, we should have other means of pursuing our ethical objective. Russia is heavily dependent on economic aid from the West and it is no doubt being made plain to Moscow that we shall find it difficult to supply further funds if the present violence continues. Also, if the Russians do have good evidence of the involvement of Chechens in terrorism, they would be well advised to publish it, particularly to avoid the intervention from the Muslim world, as happened in
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Kosovo. I read in the newspapers that President Yeltsin is today attending a security conference in Istanbul and that the Foreign Secretary is also there. They may have some useful words on the subject. I suggest that in this important and difficult case, however significant are the ethical principles—they are very significant—their direct translation into action is not a straightforward matter. I believe that national interest should also enter into the discussion as a criterion of foreign policy.
I have heard it said (but not by anybody in the Foreign Office) that the Foreign Secretary particularly dislikes the yardstick of the national interest and prefers to measure policies by other broader guides, whether of ethics, environmental gain or third world development. These aspects are also unquestionably important, but my belief is that the national interest is not a bad criterion and can embrace the other considerations which I have mentioned. Happily, there are some examples to illustrate that that can work. The most notable recent example was the agreement on European security and co-operation signed in Helsinki in 1975. The origin of this negotiation lay in a long-standing Russian desire to obtain a security treaty signed by all European countries which recognised the frontiers and territorial gains achieved by the Communists at the end of the Second World War. The West steadily rejected that notion for more than 20 years.
But in the early 1970s a more enlightened policy was followed by the West—in which this country played a notable part—by which it accepted the status quo in terms of frontiers provided that certain guarantees were given in relation to the rights of all citizens in all the signatory countries. In broad terms, that was the basis of the agreement which led to the unravelling of the Communist empire in eastern Europe by permitting East German refugees to travel to the west via Czechoslovakia and Hungary. Here is a case where an ethical approach produced excellent results. There are other positive examples which we can adduce from our experience within the Commonwealth, whose leaders have, happily, not hesitated to suspend from membership states with totalitarian and military regimes.
It appears to me, therefore, that it is possible to apply the ethical approach directly where this can be established as the basis of a negotiation between like-minded states. But the fly in the ointment is the absence of a basis for moral action in the United Nations where we must follow the rules of the charter. That is a considerable handicap whose existence we cannot ignore. I listened with fascination to the ideas of the noble Lord, Lord Stone, about ways in which we may change the situation. I thought that his analysis was excellent, but it will not be easy to find a solution.
I hope that this contribution to the debate does not appear to be unnecessarily critical. My overall impression from experience of diplomacy is that it is essentially a practical trade and in some ways resembles carpentry or bricklaying. The big structure may eventually emerge but, generally speaking, it is not the product of a grand design; rather, the result of

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different trades and efforts by many diverse people. National interest comes into it. Broadly speaking, that appears to be the conclusion reached in Dr Kissinger's blockbuster volume entitled Diplomacy. The full text runs to 835 pages and contains much good sense. I do not, however, go as far as to suggest that Dr Kissinger would recognise an ethical principle should he happen to come across one. I am not opposed to an ethical foreign policy, but I suggest that. like beauty, it should be in the eye of the beholder and fitted into the broader view which may be described as the national interest.
7.3 p.m.
Lord Blaker: M y Lords, I should like to take up a topic to which the noble Lord. Lord Chalfont, referred. He spoke of the recent wars in Bosnia, Kosovo, East Timor and Chechnya, to which country the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, also referred. I approach the subject from a different point of view. Is the fact that we have had these four wars in quick succession a coincidence or has a common theme brought them about? I believe that there is a common theme to explain the fact that they have occurred in quick succession; namely, in one way or another all have been concerned with self-determination.
The second half of this century—and I believe this will be true well into the next—has been an age of self-determination. In 1945 the number of members of the United Nations was 54; in 1964 it had risen to 113, which was an amazing increase. The total is now 188. Therefore, there have been 134 newly independent countries since the end of the war. Does that tendency have further to go? I believe so. The reasons for the tendency towards self-determination are four. One is the end of the big European empires which occurred relatively soon after the Second World War. In the Russian empire that process has some way to go. I do not believe that Chechnya is the end of the story as far as concerns Russia.
The second factor that has given rise to these small wars is the end of the cold war. When the cold war ended we were told that there would be a new world order. An American professor of Japanese extraction wrote a book entitled The End of History which propounded the view that peace had arrived, but the opposite has happened. The simple reason is that during the cold war it was too dangerous to have wars of this kind. The best example is Yugoslavia, which was kept quiet until relatively recently not only by the strength of Marshal Tito but the fact that until 10 years ago the cold war could have given rise to a world war if some of the member states of Yugoslavia had attempted to secede by force.
The third reason for the tendency towards self-determination is the extraordinary increase in the number of very small independent countries. In the Pacific there are independent countries with populations of no more than 10,000. Twenty years ago the Foreign Office set in hand a study to assess how small the population of a country could be and still allow it to become independent in a self-sustaining way. The conclusion was that the minimum population to sustain a country and its economy was
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1 million. We now have tiny independent states in the Pacific which still survive. No doubt that is a point of great interest to the Scottish National Party. Therefore, to be small is no longer a barrier to independence. The fourth factor is the instant means of communication all over the world which enable leaders of prospective independence movements to know what is going on elsewhere and to learn of the successes of other movements of a similar kind.
We must ask ourselves whether these wars are a passing phase. I believe that we shall see more of them. If one looks at Yugoslavia, in Montenegro and the province of Vojvodina in Serbia there are separatist tendencies. In Africa, some years ago we had the example of Biafra and recently another example in Rwanda. If one looks at the map of Africa, almost every country has at least one straight boundary. A straight boundary is one imposed by the colonial power without paying attention to boundaries between one tribe or ethnic group and the next. There is a lot of trouble in store there. There are straight boundaries between Somalia and Kenya. Somalia claims the northern frontier district of Kenya. If one looks at Sudan, a war has been going on in the south for some time. We know that in Indonesia several islands aspire to independence. Look also at the Kurdish problem in the Middle East; look also at China, where the province of Xinjiang has separatist aspirations.
Some years ago I was responsible for the independence of two small island territories in the Pacific, one with a population of 60,000 and the other with a population of 150,000. Each had at least a dozen islands and in each of those small countries there was a separatist movement. If that is the case, we should assume that it is frequent to find in almost any country one considers, certainly it is true in this country, that there are separatist tendencies. I believe that we face not a new world order but a good deal more disorder.
We have to recognise that with small wars of the kind to which I refer, we see horrors on our television sets which lead people, and especially the tabloid press, to cry, "Something must be done". And something is done. I refer to the way we have been pursuing our policy in recent years, sometimes in a combat role as in Kosovo and sometimes in a peacemaking or peacekeeping role. If we become more addicted to the view that it is permissible to make war in the search to prevent a serious humanitarian catastrophe, those wars are likely to be more frequent.
Whether it is a combat or a peacekeeping role, what is likely to result is a peacekeeping force. A peacekeeping role tends to last a long time. We have had peacekeeping troops in Cyprus since 1964. In Bosnia they have been there for about five years. In Kosovo a new peacekeeping force has been set up. I do not believe that that will be out of Kosovo for quite a long time. I believe that the same may be true in East Timor.
At col. 731 of Hansard of 15th October, the noble Baroness, Lady Scotland, said:
The old ways of settling conflicts without resolving the underlying causes are no longer tenable.

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That is an admirable ambition, but it has been the ambition of governments of all parties for many generations; and the success rate has not been high. One has to recognise that peacekeeping forces do not resolve the underlying cause. It can be said that they make it more difficult to resolve the underlying cause because each of the warring sides can rest content that the peacekeeping forces will keep the peace.
Such a situation raises many questions which have not yet been tackled. For reasons of time I shall not go into them now. But one of the important issues is this. In what war-like situation of that kind shall we play an active role? Will it be limited to European cases, and possibly Indonesia and South-East Asia, or are there wider spheres of action which face us?
The second and most important question is this. If we are going to see more wars of this kind, how are we to continue to play the role we have been playing? And how can our forces have the ability to conduct a conventional war—a subject also mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont—and to play all the roles which they should be playing, if the forces we have continue to be run down? The time has come for a radical rethink by the Government on how they will face that situation.
7.13 p.m.
Lord Beaumont of Whitley: My Lords, I rise to deliver my maiden speech as a member of the Green Party. However, as it is 31 years since my first maiden speech in your Lordships' House, and during that time I have not been exactly silent, I can hardly claim any special indulgences.
Perhaps I may trespass on your Lordships' time to explain why I have chosen the day for debate on foreign affairs for this maiden speech. The most obvious answer is that the day set aside for environmental matters is my birthday, and 30 years as a Peer has not yet given me the courage to upset the plans made by my family for my entertainment.
Another rather more satisfactory answer is that, if I were discussing purely environmental matters, what I would have to say, while green (with a small "g") would not be distinctively Green (with a large "G"). Indeed, I imagine that what I would have to say on that day would be said far better by Members on the Benches in front of me. But while what those Members will say will be worthy, it will hardly be worth saying as long as they and the remainder of your Lordships' House continue to believe in absolute free trade, and to favour the overruling of the legislative powers of this Parliament by the EU and the WTO. That is where the international development side of today's topic arises, and where I attempt to follow the remarks of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham.
However, as regards the Queen's Speech, let me say that in general I welcome the Government's programme despite a too authoritarian streak in it, and I shall not be tempted to go into the Conservative Lobby next Wednesday. We particularly welcome the Bill for the protection of wildlife although, as the
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Government are fully aware, the proposals for greater access to the countryside will need enormous care if the legitimate interests of all parties are to be preserved. As to the Government's "leading role in protecting the global climate", all I can say is, "And the best of British luck". I hope that the Government's Bill to reform local government will include true, not party dominated, proportional representation. And a personal hope is that "taking forward" the offer of British citizenship to the dependent territories implies actual legislation. If it is unfortunately true that in the reforms we have lost the noble Earl, Lord Iveagh, I hope to pick up and carry forward the torch which I passed to him on the subject of St Helena.
The party on these Benches and the Government will probably not have much joy in doing what they wish to do if they do not fight against and distance themselves from the economic shackles of the EU—I do not talk about the political aspects which I do not regard as shackles—and the WTO. For instance, they will not be able to produce any workable ways to preserve the farming way of life in this country. "Where are the yeomen, the yeomen of England?" The answer is that, apart from the fact that most of them are directors of insurance companies, and it is doubtful whether even those will be able to run farms, they will not be very unhappy because they will at least own land of which no more is being made, they tell me. The real yeomen will have retired or hung themselves on their own bowstrings; and if one looks at the suicide rates for farmers one will see that, while that remark may be a great deal too flippant, it is no exaggeration.
I came back from New England a fortnight ago having been to see the fall colours. They were wonderful, but much was on good farmland which had been put out of operation by the competition of the dustbowl monoculture of the Middle West. If I have an investment tip for your Lordships it is, "Invest in red maple saplings". In that way there will be a tourist use for what was the great patchwork of rural England.
It was that great Englishman and good liberal, G. K. Chesterton, who said that,
when you see an apple on a tree your first instinct is to put it in your mouth. It is not to put it on a lorry and send it the length of England.
He might have added, if he had foreseen the obscenity, that it is also not to chop the tree down, grub up the orchard and import your apples for eating half across the world, consuming 14 million litres per year of non-taxpaying, ozone-layer-destroying petrol in the process.
Apart from destroying the countryside, we have through GATT disabled ourselves from passing most of the laws necessary for protecting the global environment or caring for the welfare of our animals; and we are still playing with the idea of a multilateral agreement on investments which would deliver us bound and gagged into the hands of the multinational corporations. In the matter of the welfare of animals, the gains that have been made in Europe, largely at our instance, on the trade in furs from animals killed in the cruel leghold traps and the marketing of cosmetics tested on animals have been lost owing to the WTO.

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Other measures on the welfare of chickens and pigs, for which I have fought in your Lordships' House, are under threat.
I know that the Government will say that they have no intention of signing an MAI and every intention of modifying the so-called rules governing the World Trade Organisation. But the truth is that we are already much too far along that particular path. We need to start a counter revolution. A good start would be to proclaim that free trade as an extreme ideology has gone too far and that we should protect the rural poor of this world by protecting agriculture and persuading countries that an important base position in international affairs is "food security"; is a nation being able to feed itself, as we have had to try to do within living memory.
It has been said, and I am persuaded of the likelihood of it being true, that anything of which one is absolutely certain is probably wrong. And one of the reasons for that is that all extreme positions are wrong. Life is not like that. As Horace said, auream quisquis mediocritatem, or a Golden Mean, is what we need to seek.
Seek to apply absolute free trade, of the rightness of which far too many people are absolutely convinced and which is at first sight the most simple and logical plan for world trade, and on a small scale you destroy the rural countryside of Britain and the whole economy of the Windward isles. On a large scale, you apply a relentless pressure to reduce wages and increase unemployment everywhere in the world.
It is important to realise that all countries and all economies are different and have different needs. Admittedly it is easier to try to supply an overall pattern which suits them all. But that is a bed of Procrustes and lands you up, like the occupants of that bed, either short of a pair of feet or being tortured to death on the rack
The fact is that if we seek to have a civilised world—and I imagine that that is what we all seek—we need to treat each economy and nation separately in the same way as pastors, like myself, attempt to treat every person separately. This involved devolving power to small units and for both economic and political purposes avoiding all large conglomerates. I greatly appreciated and relished the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Blaker.
The Government have grasped the first part of this, hence the admirable devolution to Scotland and Wales for which I and noble Lords on the seats in front of me have campaigned for 50 years and which I thought I should never see achieved. They have not yet grasped the second half.
As I said when I resigned from the Liberal Democrats, they are now green-thinking enough that it would not need an enormous effort for them to take this path. The Tories under their present leadership show signs of being conservative enough, in the true sense of the word, to revert to protectionism—which is only a bad thing if it becomes selfish and jingoistic—and even Old Labour would have seen the point. It is just New Labour that appears to be inexorably
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doomed to pursue a global Gadarene path until we all fall over the precipice. Unfortunately, it is they who are the government.
7.23 p.m.
Baroness Strange: My Lords, I am beginning to feel like a bad penny, always turning up, but I am delighted to be turning up in your Lordships' House, and with so many of your Lordships surviving the shipwreck.
To your Lordships' relief, and particularly that of my noble friend the Minister, who is having a marathon sit-in, this will be a brief speech and I shall make only two points. Reading the gracious Speech makes me feel like a friend of mine who had researched Charles II for a school exam. To her horror, she saw that the question was, "Write all that you know about Charles I". Without hesitation, she began, "Speaking of Charles I reminds me of Charles II".
In paragraph 47 of the gracious Speech, there is reference to the importance of NATO, which reminds me of the importance of our contribution to it. Our new Secretary of State for Defence spoke recently of overstretch; so did my noble friend Lady Symons of Vernham Dean; so did Sir Charles Guthrie; so did my noble friends Lord Chalfont and Lady Park; and so did my noble and gallant friend Lord Bramall. Unless there is at least a 24-month gap between front line unaccompanied tours, overstretch will always be present. There are only two cures for overstretch: fewer commitments or more troops.
My second point also deals with the Armed Forces and stems from sentiments in paragraph 2 of the gracious Speech: modernisation for the millennium. I remembered the visit of the Defence Study Group to Haslar, the only remaining service hospital in the whole country, which I now hear is to be closed down.
When we visited the beautiful 1755 buildings, I was struck by the modern and avant-garde positioning of them, where wounded British servicemen could be unloaded straight from ships sailing into Portsmouth Harbour. This was 40 years before the Napoleonic wars and 50 years before Trafalgar. "Modern" and "modernisation" are relative terms. By the time of Florence Nightingale 100 years later, the splendid modern buildings were already out of date.
Should we not, to celebrate the millennium, build a new modern tri-services hospital at Brize Norton, positioned for easy access by air from East Timor, Kosovo or wherever our services may be deployed, and also with a large civilian catchment area below the central Midlands?
Having visited the splendid new buildings complex at Abbeywood for our defence procurement, I wonder whether something similar could be erected at Brize Norton as a central tri-services hospital. All the expensive, state-of-the-art modern kit could be moved there from Haslar in low loaders. A millennium services hospital would be a tribute to our doctors and nurses, to our continued commitment to NATO, and above all to our own service men and women who are surely of more vital importance than the weapons which they wield.
7.27 p.m.
Lord Avebury: My Lords, the gracious Speech states that the Government will seek to modernise the United Nations and work to make the Security Council more representative. I hope that when the Security Council is enlarged, as it must inevitably be to take account of the changes in the relative importance of the states during the past 50 years, the veto will be abolished and majority voting adopted, because otherwise enlargement is a recipe for paralysis. It has been difficult enough with the present membership to get the Security Council to act firmly when necessary. Modernising the United Nations, I hope, means improving its rules so that decisive measures can be taken to counter threats to peace or to the lives of millions of civilians caught up in one of the 18 "complex emergencies" which are defined by the Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs.
It can hardly be doubted that reforms are urgently needed in a week that has seen the publication of the report on the Srebrenica massacre of July 1995. The UN had a mandate to protect Srebrenica and five other "safe areas", yet 20,000 Bosnian Muslims were killed in and around those areas, 7,000 in Srebrenica alone. As the author of the report stated, the fundamental error made was that we tried to keep the peace and apply the rules of peacekeeping when there was no peace to keep. Perhaps that explains why some other operations, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Blaker, have not been entirely successful. The United Nations sent peacekeeping troops into a situation where there was no peace to keep. That was certainly so in Bosnia. The arms embargo favoured the Serbs, who already had plenty of weapons and all the arms factories. There was neither the will to use air power against the Serbs, nor the means on the ground to repulse them. We failed to appreciate that in their plans for a greater Serbia the enclaves were a prime target. Incomplete and inaccurate information was given to the Security Council and we continued to negotiate with the war criminals Milosevic, Karadzic and Mladic, even though it was clear at the time that they were engaged in attempted genocide.
That is a summary of the conclusions reached by the author of the report. It is of great value that the General Assembly commissioned it and its lessons should be applied more generally. I hope that in the future all UN operations will be audited to see whether the resources allocated match the tasks; whether the objectives were realistic; and whether those entrusted with the management of the operations were doing their jobs properly. I suggest that those audits should be carried out by people independent of the UN and of the Secretariat in particular. They should also be independent of the states involved in the operations concerned, although that does not mean to say that I have any criticism at all of Mr David Harland who was extremely frank and forthright in criticising his own organisation. The postponement of the report did not mean that it was being watered down in the Secretariat as I had feared, but the principle of the independence of auditors must be as essential for the UN as it is for any other body.
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The report reminds us of the need to try to punish those in positions of authority who wilfully kill civilians. I join the right reverend Prelate in being pleased to see that legislation is forthcoming to enable us to ratify the international criminal court, in the genesis of which the UK has played such an important part, as he said. Under our law the extradition of an offender is dependent on the court's satisfaction that the conduct in question would be a crime under domestic law in Britain. Therefore, I ask the Minister who is to reply—I gave her notice of the question—whether common Article 3 offences will be made justiciable in Britain.
The preamble to the United Nations Charter said that the peoples of the United Nations were,
determined to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war,
and, whether it is because of the efforts of the United Nations or the good sense of member states, there has been nothing comparable with the two world wars of the first half of the century during the past 50 years. What was not envisaged in 1945 at San Francisco—the noble Lord, Lord Blaker, dealt with this point in his remarkable speech—was that instead of international wars between the great power blocs, the scourge of the last quarter of the century was internal wars between states of all sizes and sections of their people. Today, there are some 30 conflicts within the boundaries of individual states, and only one active shooting war between states—that of Eritrea and Ethiopia, to which I shall refer later. As the noble Lord rightly pointed out, many are concerned with self-determination, although not all; for example, in Angola and the Democratic Republic of Congo other causes gave rise to the internal conflicts.
At the OSCE summit which began today, I understand that there was discussion of the indiscriminate Russian bombardment of Chechnya, to which the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, referred. He pointed out that 200,000 people, or, as I was told, a quarter of a million, have already fled Chechnya into Ingushetia and Georgia. In the previous war between 1994 and 1996, it is estimated that Chechnya lost 120,000 people—more than 10 per cent of her population. As the noble Lord pointed out, many of those people were survivors of the mass deportation by Stalin of the whole Chechnyan people to Central Asia and Kazakhstan in 1944.
As the chairman of the parliamentary committee for external relations of Chechnya said to me in a fax this morning:
We have the horrible privilege to be subjected to [ethnic cleansing] by a super-power, a member of the Security Council.
The OSCE summit this time is focused on implementation of existing agreements, one of which, made in Budapest in 1994, says that member states will ensure that,
If recourse to force cannot be avoided in performing internal security missions, [the state] will ensure that its use must be commensurate with enforcement. The armed forces will take due care to avoid injury to civilians or their property.

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The Russians are flagrantly and systematically violating this commitment. They are erasing whole residential areas by bombing and shelling, and driving the surviving inhabitants out into the open air, to perish of cold, disease and starvation.
We talk about conflict prevention and conflict resolution, but those are not sciences, and when it comes to particular cases there is generally neither the power nor the will to act. The OSCE has produced some excellent statements over the years, but they are said to be politically rather than legally binding. That means in practice that there are no effective mechanisms of enforcement. In Kosovo, where the conduct of Serbs towards ethnic Albanians was identical with that of the Russians towards the Chechens, the doctrine emerged that groups of states are entitled to act across frontiers without the Security Council's express authorisation, when that was the only means of averting an immediate and overwhelming humanitarian catastrophe. The noble Lord, Lord Bridges, made reference to the doubtful legality of that principle.
Reference is made by the Government to our intervention in northern Iraq, but there of course we had the authority of Security Council Resolutions 678 and 688 to use military force in pursuit of the objectives stated in all the previous resolutions by the Security Council from 660 onwards. If a new rule of international law has indeed been developed in Kosovo, it needs to he spelt out more clearly than it has been so far. Which organisations of states are entitled to judge that a humanitarian catastrophe is occurring, and is anybody in any doubt that Chechnya satisfies the criteria? If so, do we not have to admit—another noble Lord has touched on this point—that international law cannot be applied against super-powers, and how do the Government propose that that problem should be dealt with as part of their UN reforms?
It is ironic also that the OSCE summit is being held in Istanbul, on the territory of a state which itself not only violated the Budapest Summit Declaration which I quoted earlier but rejects also the Copenhagen Declaration of the OSCE on minorities. Turkey's armed forces were responsible for the forcible ejection of 3 million people from their villages and towns in the south-east since the armed conflict with the PKK began in 1984, and they still refuse to accept that Kurdish people have the elementary rights of language, mother-tongue education and control of their own local authorities which the OSCE has defined. The Turks are alone in the region in having rejected all outside help to reach a political solution to the conflict within their boundaries. Indeed, they have never even invited the chairman of the OSCE for informal discussions on the subject. Yet here they are hosting a summit at which everyone else is to be told to obey the rules.
If the OSCE is to be an effective institution in the 21st century, I suggest that it should refrain from making any more new declarations until it finds better means of enforcing the commitments that its members have already undertaken. In cases outside
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Europe where the UN has intervened to prevent humanitarian catastrophes, it has always done so with the consent of the state concerned. In the case of East Timor, Indonesia finally agreed to let the UN send in a multinational force, and the Australians have made it clear that they would not have gone in under any other basis. In Haiti, the legitimate authorities invited the UN. The UN went to Angola with the blessing of the government and UNITA and withdrew only when the fighting intensified.
Should the UN be content to play an entirely passive and neutral role in domestic conflicts, merely alleviating suffering wherever it can? In Sudan, according to UN Special Rapporteur, Leonardo Franco, the human rights situation was worsening,
because of strategies implemented in relation to exploitation of oil resources.
While the discovery of oil was welcome, he said that,
steps taken to preserve control of Sudan's oil fields, such as the displacement of peoples and ethnic cleansing, were unacceptable.
Christian Solidarity Worldwide also considers that exports of oil from the Upper West Nile worth up to 500 million dollars per year are likely to prolong the civil war and worsen the human rights situation. One example of that is that there have been reports of Czech and Polish T-54 and T-55 tanks being sold to Sudan via Yemen, no doubt lubricated by those oil revenues.
In fact, many of the conflicts in Africa have been fuelled either by competition over resources or the diversion of revenues from resource exploitation into the purchase of weaponry. The UN is now trying to stop the flow of weapons to UNITA in Angola by denying Savimbi the money that he obtained from the illegal sale of diamonds, estimated at 1.72 billion dollars between 1994 and the end of last year and 150 million dollars this year alone. However, the Government of Angola are also pouring vast sums of money into the war derived from the exploitation of resources. They received 870 million dollars from signature bonuses on the award of rights to oil companies on blocks 31, 32 and 33, and 350 million dollars of that was paid by BP alone for block 31. According to the former Foreign Minister in an interview with Alex Vines of Human Rights Watch, all those funds were earmarked for the war effort.
Should not the UN look more comprehensively at the diversion of resources from development into armed conflict, particularly in Africa, and the possibilities, for example, of using escrow accounts, as in the case of Iraq, to ensure that royalties are used for humanitarian and developmental purposes only? An agency for the prevention of internal armed conflict should have two other functions. First, it should extend best practice in licensing arms exports to states which are less strict in their criteria than the European Union, such as the states of Eastern Europe, the Ukraine, China and North Korea. Secondly, it should develop independent auditing capacity to ensure that states properly observe the rules that they sign up to and the establishment of general mechanisms for looking at the claims to self-determination, mentioned

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by the noble Lord, Lord Blaker, which are often the causes of armed conflict, as in the cases of Chechnya, Acheli, West Papua or Kashmir.
If the UN had a body to which the people of such territories could appeal, the hearing of their cases before an impartial international tribunal may lead to agreed solutions and would in any case provide an alternative to the use of armed force. My final suggestion is that the Committee on Decolonisation, which has almost completed its work on the former dependencies of the European imperialists, may now turn its attention to that problem.
7.42 p.m.
Baroness Cox: My Lords, I was pleased to hear the Government's commitment in the gracious Speech to a policy of adaptability in defence which will ensure appropriate readiness for the challenges of the new century.
Among those challenges I must raise some deep concerns born of direct experience in two parts of the world which may seem far removed from each other but which are now linked by a common threat. I refer to Sudan and the Caucasus, where those who have instigated the wars in Chechnya and Dagestan are now threatening Armenia and the historically Armenian land of Nagorno-Karabakh.
First, I turn to Sudan. In the cruel calculus of man's inhumanity to man, Sudan ranks as the greatest tragedy in the world today. With 2 million dead and over 5 million displaced in recent years, its toll of suffering exceeds former Yugoslavia, Somalia and Rwanda put together.
The National Islamic Front (NIF) regime, which took power by military coup in 1989, represents at most 5 per cent of the Sudanese people. It has declared "jihad" in its most aggressive form against all who oppose it: Muslims, Christians and traditional believers. The weapons of its jihad include military offensives against innocent civilians, denial of aid to vast areas and slavery.
In the last 18 months I and my colleagues in Christian Solidarity Worldwide have visited Sudan six times and visited areas declared by the NIF as "no-go" for the United Nations Operation Lifeline Sudan and other aid organisations, in Southern Blue Nile, the Nuba Mountains, Western Upper Nile and Bahr-El-Ghazal. We witnessed carnage and scorched earth policies on a huge scale. We saw the aftermath of massive raids by combined government forces, mujahedin and murahaleen.
In May last year in northern Bahr-El-Ghazal we found the remains of a big market where government-led troops had surrounded civilians, forced them into a cul-de-sac and massacred them. Their bodies, covered with thorn bushes to keep vultures at bay, were putrefying in the heat. We followed in the footsteps of those who had tried to escape and saw how they had been mown down and slaughtered. We walked for miles through corpses of civilians interspersed with corpses of cattle. We saw systematically burnt homes,
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schools, clinics, churches and crops. We talked with women and children who had been enslaved and saw the evidence of their ordeals, including scars of beatings and half-Arab babies fathered by the slaves' owners.
Genocide is not a word I use lightly, but I challenge anyone who saw what we saw to find a more appropriate word for this aspect of the NIF's policies.
In June this year we were in Western Upper Nile near the oil wells at Bentiu and we saw how entire communities had lost everything in government raids. Six thousand homes, seven churches, three mosques, several schools and clinics had been burnt. The people were left with nothing with which to survive the rainy season. More recently there have been reports that 150,000 civilians have been displaced from areas around the oil fields, to which the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, has just referred.
People in other areas also suffer. The Beja Muslims in eastern Sudan have been driven from their homes to scavenge in the desert. The people of the Nuba Mountains suffer constant attacks and attempts to force them to go to government peace camps, a cruel euphemism for places little better than concentration camps.
Countless Muslim Arabs in the north have been subject to arrest, torture and extrajudicial killing. Recently, 20 people have been accused by the NIF of being implicated in bombings. They include two Roman Catholic priests, one of whom is the chancellor of a diocese. There is deep concern that confessions were obtained under torture. Three of those imprisoned have reportedly died from torture.
There have also been reports of the use of chemical weapons by the NIF in remote and inaccessible places such as the Nuba Mountains and Southern Blue Nile. People from the areas attacked give consistent accounts of symptoms of those affected such as sore eyes, skin irritation, acute nausea, vomiting and bleeding, symptoms consistent with contact with the arsenical compound Lewisite. Some die and others survive. In July this year there were reports that similar bombs had been dropped in southern Sudan in Lainya and Kaya with similar symptoms experienced among people in the vicinity. An investigative team was sent, including a Canadian chemical weapons expert, but it was recalled before arriving on site.
The failure by the international community to investigate those reports has caused acute dismay among local people, concern among aid organisations and anxiety that inaction will encourage the NIF to believe that it can repeat such attacks with impunity. Indeed, there have been subsequent reports that similar weapons have been used recently in western Upper Nile in the oil-rich areas where the NIF is trying to clear the area of local people.
The NIF's policy of using oil revenue to purchase more weapons for the war must be a matter for serious concern. Already, as the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, has said, there are reports of oil money being used to buy tanks from Poland, transported via Turkey and

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the Yemen. There are also reports that the NIF is currently flying in 40,000 undercover soldiers from China to fight alongside its own forces.
The National Democratic Alliance coalition represents the democratically elected Government of Sudan, now in exile. Its forces face the grimmest dry season offensives yet and they suffer from a grave asymmetry of resources. They have, for example, no protection for their civilians from aerial attack. If the NIF succeeds militarily, a ruthless Islamist regime will become entrenched in Africa's largest country, a regime which has been condemned by the United Nations for its violations of human rights, known to harbour, train and encourage terrorists and committed to the spread of terrorist Islamism beyond its own borders.
The guru behind the NIF, El Turabi, and his close ally the international terrorist Osama Bin Laden, have called on the warriors of the jihad to regard the USA and all who support it as enemies. That is an open incitement to terrorism.
That scenario leads me to brief consideration of my second area of concern, the Caucasus. For it is the leaders behind the war in Sudan and their supporters who have opened another front in Chechnya, ignited the wars in Kashmir and Dagestan and announced their intention to attack Karabakh and Armenia next.
Chechen leaders have been discussing those issues with President Aliyev of Azerbaijan. There is also robust evidence to indicate that the terrorist bombings in Russia were carried out by Islamist terrorists. The materials, mechanisms and techniques used were similar to those used in the attacks on the American embassies in Africa, attacks which are generally acknowledged to have been the work of Islamists.
There has been a great deal of criticism of Russia's response to the offensives in Chechnya, for example, the eloquent contribution by the noble Lord, Lord Hylton.
I in no way underestimate, or have any lack of concern for, the suffering of the innocent victims of Chechnya. However, the Islamists who have initiated these wars are not exempt from blame. Here I must quickly make a fundamental distinction between the ideological Islamists and their policies and Islam itself. Many Muslims are opposed to the Islamists' policies. For example, many Muslim soldiers, including very senior commanders whom I am proud to call my friends, are fighting alongside Christians against the NIF in Sudan. Similarly, the great majority of local people in Chechnya and Dagestan were peaceable Muslims, not seeking a war. They were taken over by the Islamists and became caught up in a conflict not of their choosing.
The war in Chechnya and Dagestan must be seen in this light. The Russians are faced with formidable ideologically committed forces who are instigating these conflicts as part of a wider strategy. At a meeting in London just last Friday, militant leaders, including Abu Hamza and Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammed, called for support for this—I quote—"Jihad for Chechnya" against Russia, including financial
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support, media campaigns and volunteers to go to Chechnya to fight. A declaration was also published which included the following commitment:
We declare that we will never rest until we establish the Khilafah, that is an Islamic State for all Muslims worldwide, which will be a shield behind which Muslims can protect themselves and from behind which they can fight the enemies of Allah.
Moreover, in the Chechnyan war atrocities have been committed on both sides. In the early days of the first Chechnyan war, six ICRC staff were taken hostage in Chechnya and executed. Many other humanitarian and professional workers have also been attacked, terrorised and some of them killed in Chechnya. Understandably, the great majority of foreign organisations moved out and few people remain as witnesses or moderating influences.
Therefore, please may I urge that critical commentary on the wars in Chechnya and Dagestan is balanced and does not continue to put the primary blame on to Russia without apportioning appropriate criticism to those Islamists in Chechnya and Dagestan who started the conflicts, who have their Own track record of brutality and who must carry much of the blame for the suffering of their own people.
These Islamists have announced their intention to attack Nagorno Karabakh and Armenia next: first Dagestan and then Karabakh, and then more Islamic nations of the former Soviet Union in due course. There are many reasons, including oil and pipeline factors. The issues are too complex for discussion here. If any noble Lord would like further information, may I refer to an authoritative article entitled Chechnya; The Mujahedin Factor, written in January 1998 by Yossef Bodansky, Director of the Task Force on Terrorism and Unconventional Warfare of the US Congress. He concludes:
Determined to consolidate their control over the strategically and economically crucial Caucasus, the Islamists and their sponsoring states have already resolved to escalate their terrorist 'jihad' to achieve what no negotiations can deliver. And herein lies the quintessence of the grim prospects for the Caucasus.
I regret having to conclude my schematic comments on these two very complex parts of the world on that grim note. However, I hope that the Government have clear, positive and principled policies in these areas and I look forward to brighter conclusions in the Minister's responses in due course to a number of questions arising from the concerns that I have identified. I am afraid that I have to finish on what is a formidable list, and of course I do not expect replies this evening.
First, to return to Sudan, will the Government put pressure on the NIF regime to desist from aerial bombardment of civilians, and especially from targeting hospitals and feeding centres? Will they put pressure on the regime to open all parts of Sudan to independent human rights monitors to enable those who are currently enslaved to be identified and returned to their communities? Also, will they put pressure on the regime to open all of Sudan to aid organisations and to desist from using food and medical aid as part of their policies of forced Arabisation of Africans or Islamisation of Christians?

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Will the Government raise the issue of the detention and alleged maltreatment of the Roman Catholic priests and all others reportedly imprisoned on false charges? Will they encourage an independent on-site investigation into the alleged use of chemical weapons by the NIF in all the locations where these have reportedly been used? Will the Government work towards the imposition of an arms embargo to restrict the NIF's use of oil revenues to purchase more weapons for its war against its own people?
My final two questions concern the Caucasus. Will the Government adopt a balanced policy towards the very tragic conflicts in Chechnya and Dagestan, recognising culpability where this occurs by all sides involved? Also, will the Government do everything possible to prevail upon the Islamists and on the Government of Azerbaijan to desist from allowing the conflict to spread further, in particular to Armenia and Nagorno Karabakh, as these countries have been identified as the next targets? I hope that the noble Baroness, when she replies, will be able to give an assurance that the Government are doing all in their power to meet these two challenges confronting us as we move into the next century: that is, the escalating conflicts in Sudan and the Caucasus and the urgent need to bring peace with justice for all who are currently suffering in these deeply troubled parts of the world.
Lord Ahmed: My Lords, before the noble Baroness sits down, may I ask whether she is aware that Omar Bakri and Abu Hamza represent less than 0.1 per cent of the Muslim community in Britain and that these are very extreme cases which have been quoted tonight by the noble Baroness? I am particularly concerned at the way in which Kashmir and other places have been mentioned because, as a Kashmiri, I know that over 75,000 Kashmiri people have been brutally murdered by Indian soldiers. That has not been mentioned, and I feel it would be only appropriate to mention the 3,500 Chechnya civilians who have been murdered by the Russian soldiers too.
Baroness Cox: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for allowing me to repeat what I said earlier. I made a very clear distinction between the peaceable Muslims and those who are engaged in terrorist and aggressive policies. Also I emphasised my own great concern for those who are suffering in Chechnya. It is important to look at all the causes of their suffering and not to look at these things in a unilateral way and apportion blame unilaterally.
7.56 p.m.
Lord Craig of Radley: My Lords, in Supplement No. 1 to the London Gazette dated 28th October 1999, there are no fewer than eight pages of special awards to servicemen and women for their bravery and distinguished performances on operational duties. Apart from the still significant number of awards for service in Northern Ireland and some for bravery during search and rescue operations, this one Gazette
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supplement lists more honours and awards to personnel of all three services for engagement in conflicts than any other single Gazette Supplement for many years past.
In the case of my own service, there are no fewer than 25 mentioned for operations in the former Yugoslavia, over Kosovo and in the Gulf, or in support of other United Nations operations. They include every one for gallant and distinguished service, a CBE, two DSOs, eight DFCs and 14 mentions in despatches. The whole list is a magnificent indication of courage and fortitude on the part of our servicemen and women. It is very regrettable that there has been so little media interest in this truly remarkable Gazette and in the men and women whose names are listed in it.
I therefore welcome the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Symons of Vernham Dean, praising the work and fortitude of today's servicemen and women. As a nation and, I am sure in this House, we should congratulate and be proud of our servicemen and women for the way in which they so valiantly serve their country. Because the Royal Air Force suffered no aircraft losses over Kosovo, there is perhaps a mistaken perception that it was not really a dangerous fight. But wars are very rarely without casualties. One has only to read about the operations in Chechnya to realise that wars can be very bloody indeed, both for the attackers and the defenders.
The fighting over Kosovo may have come to an end, but the operations into Iraq continue to this day. We do not see much of them being reported in the media either, but the Royal Air Force has to date flown well over 30 bombing missions over northern or southern Iraq. Since the end of the Gulf War the Royal Air Force has logged a staggering 68,000 hours on operation in that theatre. Those crews too are at risk from Iraqi defences.
We are in danger of viewing such activity as the norm. But for the families and friends of those taking part, it is not something that can be accepted in the same way as normal peacetime flying. Numbing concern and gripping fear can still churn the stomach of even the most resilient of individuals, let alone the children of those involved.
If the nation tasks our aircrew to undertake these prolonged and repetitive operations, we owe it to them to ensure that they are getting full support, both in personal terms and in terms of weapons and other equipment, to enable them to operate effectively. While it may be reasonable, if resources are tight, to look for savings and economies when all that is being done is peacetime training, it is morally wrong to provide less than adequate preparation for operations.
The gracious Speech makes reference to the future of National Air Traffic Services. As the privatisation of NATS is progressed, I hope that the needs of the Armed Forces for airspace to train for operations will be safeguarded. We may no longer mount the large-scale air defence exercises around our shores or send off bomber streams of Victors and Vulcans criss-crossing the whole of the United Kingdom as we did a generation ago at the height of the Cold War.

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But unfettered access to areas of our national airspace is as essential today as it ever was for the training of our aircrews. I hope we can have an assurance on that.
It is now widely known that the Treasury did not provide all that the Ministry of Defence needed to pay for the results of the Strategic Defence Review. On top of that, MoD set itself a 3 per cent per annum target of efficiency savings. I have no fundamental objection to a sensible squeeze. It can be helpful in ensuring that the best and most cost-effective measures are in place. If all the money released were to be used to help enhance our fighting capability, that would be fine. But is that what is going to happen? The MoD pamphlet—Making it Happen— makes it clear that not all the money released will go to defence. We are told that in 1998–99 £594 million was saved—more than the target. How much of that £594 million has been reinvested as indicated? It is one thing to find 3 per cent per annum from a fully-funded budget. But 3 per cent off a budget which is already short by £0.5 billion is an altogether more difficult task.
We owe it to all those who are committed to operations (or may be involved in them in the coming weeks and months because so many of our commitments are ongoing) soldiers and sailors as well as airmen, to see that they are adequately prepared, properly equipped and fully trained for their tasks. But when money is short, a squeeze comes on the equipment programme, on the size of the front line, on activity levels, or on a mix of all three. But each and every one of such cutbacks, if pursued, will have a knock-on effect on the operational front line. The Kosovo operations highlighted equipment deficiencies. We need to tackle those urgently. This is not the time to be hitting the equipment budget.
The front line of all three services has been stretched and stretched by the length and scale of the commitments which they have been undertaking—other noble Lords made that point most strongly. Reducing the size of the front line to accommodate shortages of funds makes no sense, unless Her Majesty's Government are prepared to rein back severely on their military undertakings around the world. I have seen little evidence of that, in the gracious Speech or elsewhere. That is understandable if we are to continue to punch our weight, hold on to our seat on the Security Council, back NATO in the strongest of terns, and now it seems, be ready to provide a major contribution to some European crisis management and rapid reaction formation. There is no further scope for front line cuts.
Nor, as I have said, can we expect our front line forces to go into operations without the full range of training needed for the tasks they may face. Savings on activity and training not only hit those immediately committed, but have the most serious consequences for front line manning and operational capability in the following months and years. No really satisfactory answer has been found yet to deal with the acute undermanning in the three services, much of it in the ranks where experience and leadership, of key importance in operations, are normally to be found.
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In the circumstances which the Armed Forces are now facing, now is not the time to be continuing with the sorts of squeezes and pressures on the budget that characterised and dominated the years of the Cold War. We could take some risks then, believing that the chances of actually fighting were relatively low. Today, in the post-Cold War age, when we are committing a greater percentage of our young servicemen and women to live operations than at any time since the end of World War II, we must update that approach.
We must be more realistic about the cost and funding of defence requirements. This Government, I fear, like so many of their predecessors, still seem to think that the old tried and tested Treasury methods of extracting savings from the defence budget should continue. But defence output, what we expect of our forces today, is not the same as it was during the Cold War. We have seen our front lines cut by one-third to one-half in the course of this decade. We have seen serious undermanning and overstretch. But in the same decade the commitment of our ground, sea and air forces and their involvement in intense activity and live operations has grown inexorably. If Her Majesty's Government want to continue to hold their place on the world stage, they must accept that this means a new, more realistic approach to the funding of defence. Words and promises are not enough; deeds and actions are called for.
All those young men and women who featured recently in the London Gazette, and the many more like them in the three services, deserve to be fully trained, fully equipped and fully backed by this Government. Now is not the time to be cutting the front line, saving on training, or raiding the equipment budget. I hope that the Government will react responsibly and provide the funds where they are now so urgently needed. Our Armed Forces deserve no less of this or any British government.
8.7 p.m.
Baroness Elles: My Lords, first, I join with the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley, in his praise of and congratulations to members of the services who have suffered so much in various activities throughout the world on behalf of the United Kingdom. I do that particularly as a former member of the WAAF, and consequently of the RAF. I am grateful for what the noble and gallant Lord said and hope other noble Lords share in the gratitude he expressed to those servicemen.
I thank also the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, for his remarks on Chechnya. As he dealt with that issue very fully, I have only a few words to add. We must recognise that in recent months our Armed Forces, together with those in particular of the United States, were engaged in massive attacks on Kosovo, with heavy bombardment of Serbian farms resulting in heavy damage to civilians.
The European Union, including specifically the Commissioner for External Affairs, Chris Patten, is now seeking to influence the Russian federal

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authorities' military action in Chechnya, accusing them not only of using military power but disproportionate and indiscriminate use of force, but not by engaging in military action. The EU is seeking for the Russian Federation to reach a political rather than a military solution with the Chechen people.
The facts so far are not encouraging. The Chechen people are seeking independence. The Russian Federation, of course, is not. It is not only a question of people's freedom and national identity, but also, of valuable oil deposits in the region. Information available so far indicates that Russian troops are advancing on Grozny and, indeed, some are said now to be in occupation of parts of the capital. The civilians, therefore, obviously had to leave. They have been advised to leave. In all, it is estimated that about 200,000 people are now refugees in Ingushetia and some in Dagestan.
The optimistic outcome for Russia would be for the army to walk into Grozny unopposed. Until that happens it is difficult to conceive that the Russians will embark on a political dialogue as sought by the EU. But whatever the Russians achieve, member states of the EU are faced with alternatives. First, no military intervention should be undertaken; let the Russian Federation deal with its internal affairs unimpeded. Secondly, the EU should be ready and willing to grant humanitarian aid to the many thousands of civilians who have been displaced. Thirdly, the Russians should be encouraged to enable humanitarian aid to be distributed. This is obviously required. Fourthly, in view of the tragic and appalling treatment of some British subjects recently, there must be guaranteed protection for those international aid workers who are willing to go to work in the area.
At today's meeting in Istanbul, with the presence announced of Mr Boris Yeltsin, it can only be hoped that some progress towards stabilisation will be made. In the context of opening up the frontiers of the EU to central and eastern European states, positive co-operation with the Russian Federation could be achieved within a partnership and co-operation agreement. It will be up to the Russians to show that this can and should be achieved. We very much hope that it will.
8.11 p.m.
Lord Owen: My Lords, I hope that I shall be forgiven if I am not present at the summing up of the debate. President Yeltsin's most senior adviser is in London and I was due to see him an hour and a half ago. Many issues have been raised in this House which I wish to put to him.
The issue of the Caucasus is immensely complex. We need to listen to the Russians' point of view, but they too must listen to some of our urgent humanitarian demands. There is a need to get more humanitarian aid in quickly. We must also try to convince them that even in internal disputes help from outside can sometimes be effective. For years we believed that we alone could solve the problems of Northern Ireland,
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and we resisted all forms of outside help. Recently we have seen the value of intervention from people outside the region and from outside one's own country. Somehow we need to persuade the Russians of the value of that.
The main issue I wish to discuss is Europe, but not the euro, although my views on that may be known to some people. I have profound doubts that we should move into European monetary union without looking carefully at all its aspects. But as it is not mentioned in the Queen's Speech, I shall discuss another matter concerned with the European Union and unity. I am, and always have been, deeply committed to the European Union and our membership. I am not in favour of a static membership. I believe that there are times when we can take initiatives. I strongly approve of the attempt to try to negotiate a new European defence and security identity. I know that this is deeply complex. It, again, could impact adversely on NATO if it was handled badly.
On the other hand, it is extremely difficult to develop a consensus foreign policy and then not have the military muscle to carry that foreign policy through. We certainly saw that in Yugoslavia in 1993 when the European Union had an action plan that had been negotiated. All it needed was a perfectly legitimate demand from President Izetbetgovic to guarantee the borders of the then Bosnian republic within a three republic solution. Because the United States did not wish to do that it would have been natural for Europe to have given that commitment but it did not have the capacity to do that.
We also have to look at the implications that now arise as regards the deeper integration of the European Union. This will obviously be of great importance as we grapple with the question of how far we can go on defence and on some of the other issues. The Government have highlighted five economic tests. We can argue about their validity but we shall certainly hear more about them in terms of whether or not we should join euroland.
It is difficult to make a distinction between economics and politics. There are many political and democratic issues that relate to taxation policy and currency. However, it is legitimate for us to try to identify political tests that are also necessary as a safeguard if we are to continue as a self-governing nation. I suggest five tests which may be appropriate.
First, we need to be absolutely sure that we shall be able to continue to conduct our own nuclear defence policy within the consensus decision-making structures of NATO. That is important because, up until Kosovo at least, quite a number of people felt that NATO was an outdated organisation. Kosovo ought to have convinced us that that organisation is of critical importance, if only for two reasons: first, the flexibility it gave for our own Prime Minister to argue at a crucial moment in the war that we had to look again at the deployment of ground troops. Simultaneously, almost, President Clinton had the authority and the flexibility to pursue a negotiated settlement with the Russians as intermediaries because

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he sensed that the promise his advisers had given him that it would all be over in five days was clearly absolute nonsense. That degree of flexibility and of national independent decision-making is a considerable strength of NATO and I do not want to see it diluted in any respect whatever.
The second test is whether in the last analysis we retain the right to make our own foreign policy decisions even if in a minority of one within the framework of European common foreign and security policy. If one examines closely the Amsterdam Treaty, one sees that we have stretched the elastic of qualified majority voting as far as possible. I do not complain about that. As we enlarge the Community we need mechanisms that push people towards a consensus. But one also needs to have an appeals mechanism over that within the Amsterdam Treaty. However, I defy anyone to change the Amsterdam Treaty in almost any respect as it applies to qualified majority voting in CFSP without effectively impairing one's capacity to have one's own foreign policy in the last analysis. I was shocked that the three so-called "wise men" asked by President Prodi to advise him on the question of enlargement have been able to talk about increasing qualified majority voting in CFSP. I do not believe that is possible. Amsterdam went far in that regard and stretched the elastic. I do not see how one can go further.
The third test is whether any European defence and security initiative established within the EU is purely intergovernmental and there is no involvement of the European Commission, Court or Parliament. That question of no involvement of the European Commission, Court or Parliament was what was agreed by President Chirac and our Prime Minister at the St Malo meeting in December 1998. I think that is an absolute essential if we are to develop a European defence and security identity that does not challenge NATO. Already one sees that pillar being eroded. Again the three wise men have suggested that the European defence identity should not be a separate pillar and that it should be wound into the common foreign and security policy. But of its very nature, common foreign and security policy has to involve the Commission, the external commissioner for trade, the external commissioner for foreign policy and the development issues. They are part of the fabric of developing a foreign policy. You cannot deny that these are tools that have to be there and present at the Council of Foreign Ministers.
Similarly, whether we like it or not, the European Parliament has, without any power, certainly taken some role on foreign policy. The St Malo agreement was quite specific that that was not to happen with defence. I believe that is extremely important. Its democratic responsibility should be to national parliaments, as it has been in the WEU. That is the third test on which we should insist.
The fourth test is whether we remain as a permanent member of the UN Security Council, with the existing veto power, and are not replaced by EU representation on the Security Council or on G8. With great respect to people who have suggested that we could give up the
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veto, there is absolutely no way the United States of America would contemplate giving up the veto. To even suggest it is to gravely damage the UN, which does not have at the moment—to put it mildly—a very high standing with either the House of Representatives or the Senate. The present administration is only just on the point of being able to start to repay its debts.
We must be realistic. The Security Council needs reform. It is an anomaly that Japan and Germany are not there, but it is hard to bring those countries in without finding a place also for big, significant countries such as Brazil, Nigeria and India. Although expanding the Security Council would have its problems, I believe that those five countries have a very strong case.
The reason for raising the issue is that, first of all, we have the German President talking about EU representation on the Security Council; and now we have Javier Solana speaking as high representative for CFSP about EU representation. I count him as a friend. I think he is a very good appointment: as a former Secretary-General of NATO he knows how to work within the parameters of an intergovernmental organisation. However, I question whether he consulted with the Council of Foreign Ministers before suggesting that this should happen. He is not a EU foreign minister; he is a representative of the Council of Foreign Ministers. We do not have, we do not want and there is no constitutional provision for an EU foreign minister. The EU cannot be represented on the Security Council when it does not have the status of a government or a state, any more than NATO can be represented on the Security Council. These kind of initiatives—or flights of fancy—must be nipped in the bud.
We have had also President Prodi talking about a European army. Again, that will need considerable definition before it is acceptable to many different member states.
Then we have the question of G8. This is not a query. The three wise men have come up with a proposition that would effectively, while Britain is outside the euro, ban the Governor of the Bank of England from attending G7 meetings. It is perfectly understandable that the Americans and the Canadians said to the Italians, the Germans and the French "You ought to be represented by the President of the ECB or by your three governors of the banks—but not by the four of them". They chose to be represented by the President of the ECB, which is perfectly fair. But it is not legitimate—it is against the constitution of the Maastricht Treaty—to try to say that we cannot be represented internationally as an individual state on monetary and economic measures. Again, one must question the motivation behind the three wise men suggesting this.
The fifth test that I would suggest is whether we can continue with the right to impose UK controls at the ports of entry from continental EU member states. This is very controversial. Schengen came in with tremendous enthusiasm and then member states found that they could not live within Schengen and they had

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to renege on it. They had to change because circumstances changed. We should be extremely unwise in this country to give up that right. We should co-operate fully on border controls and we should have as big an element of EU identity as possible. But, in the last analysis, we should have the right to have our own controls.
These are important if we are genuinely to believe that going into the euro does not involve a massive step towards a single state, towards a United States of Europe. It is not scaremongering to raise these political questions. This is not just an economic issue. There are political questions which need to be analysed carefully. It is much easier to form a judgment on these questions if we do not rush into the euro. We see how it develops; we see how Euroland copes among the member states. The 11 member states are perfectly entitled to take these steps, if they wish. Under Article 43 of the Treaty of Amsterdam we will see a different speed Europe develop. It is a very essential flexibility; it takes on the concept of the Maastricht Treaty opt-out and it gives its general form and general direction.
We should analyse these matters extremely carefully. There are serious and massive long-term implications in some of these short-term discussions. The issues are extremely technical. One has to be more of a constitutional lawyer to find one's way through the Treaty of Maastricht and the Treaty of Amsterdam and how they impact on our own domestic decisions. In the next two or three years we do not need to be anti-European Union; we do not need to be static and to believe that it cannot in some areas take on extra powers; for instance, I think it should do so in the area of the environment. If we think our people wish this country to remain self-governing in all the essentials of a modern state—we have modified our essentials over the 20th century; we may well modify them over the 21st century—we must be vigilant and extremely careful. We should not rush.
8.26 p.m.
Lord Dahrendorf: My Lords, this important debate inevitably has many strands. I, for one, look forward to seeing how the Minister will pull them together. One of the strands is Europe. I find myself in wide agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Owen, both in the underlying sentiment of wishing to make European co-operation work and in the detailed argument about the problems before us.
Another strand is the future of international organisations. I am still intrigued and interested by what the noble Lord, Lord Stone of Blackheath, said. I hope that his words will be heeded.
A third strand is the vexing issue of ethics and foreign policy. My remarks relate to, but are somewhat different from, the comment of the noble Lord, Lord Bridges. I remind your Lordships that the Government's first gracious Speech contained the statement:
The promotion of human rights worldwide will be a priority—[Official Report, 14/5/97; col. 8.]
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The Foreign Secretary presented his mission statement, quoted already by several of your Lordships, in which—after security, prosperity and quality of life as interests guiding foreign policy—a fourth pillar was introduced, the promotion of our values. It said:
The Labour Government will put human rights at the heart of our foreign policy and will publish an annual report on our work in promoting human rights abroad.
It is true that the Foreign Secretary did not use the phrase, often attributed to him, of "an ethical foreign policy".
But the mission statement does not sound very different. It said:
Our foreign policy must have an ethical dimension and must support the demands of other peoples for the democratic rights on which we insist for ourselves.
Last year's gracious Speech, the Government's second, reaffirmed the good intentions in the usual laconic way. It said that,
my Government remain committed to the effective promotion of human rights world-wide.—[Official Report, 24/11/98; col. 5.]
However, if we search for a similar phrase in this year's gracious Speech, we look in vain. What has happened? Has the world-wide problem of human rights been resolved? Has the ethical dimension of foreign policy been abandoned? Or have the Government discovered that the relations between ethics and foreign policy are rather more complex than they at first seemed and that the whole issue of the ethical dimension of foreign policy needs to be reconsidered? I assume the latter. I do not want to be misunderstood in commenting on the issue. My own interest in human rights is much greater and certainly more passionate than my interest in foreign policy. For that very reason, I am not inclined to confuse the two.
Foreign policy essentially is about interest. And since it is to the present day the foreign policy of nation states, it is about national interest. The national interest of a country, which has developed and cherished a liberal order, democracy and the rule of law, entails particularly close relations with others of similar traditions and aspirations. It also entails the desire to see adopted the elements of the liberal order wherever people have shed tyrannies of whatever description. More than that, a helping hand must be held out to such countries. Enlargement of the European Union to include the post-communist countries of east central Europe takes place far too late and is far too hung up on technical matters of the acquis communautaire—often the vested interest of current members.
However, the national interest is not confined to security and economic prosperity. Liberty is indivisible; it will never be safe until it is universal. At the same time, human rights are not in the same sense a national interest. The integrity of the human person, the absence of torture and detention without trial, and the basic freedoms of speech and of association are indispensable for the liberal order. Their violation in any part of the world is unacceptable to us as moral beings. But not everything that is morally unacceptable can be rectified by governments. Indeed,

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as a traditional liberal, I have a very restrictive view of the role and tasks of government. Campaigning governments are in fact more likely to act against the national interest: than for it. What is more, they are unlikely to campaign effectively. Some of my friends will probably be horrified by such statements, although I hope to clarify them presently.
I am delighted at the flourishing of non-governmental organisations world-wide, especially in the field of human rights. For example, Amnesty began with a programme of adopting prisoners of conscience and fighting quietly and effectively for their release. Foundations, large and small, have assisted those in repressive regimes to set up local radio stations and to produce news sheets and books. Organisations which care for victims of torture have helped individuals and drawn attention to one of the curses of ruthless power. The fate of children in many parts of the world has been the concern of Save the Children and others. The gracious Speech rightly draws attention to this concern and also promises support for those so engaged. That is exactly as it should be.
There can be a climate that is friendly to nongovernmental activists for human rights and one that is hostile. The same is true for non-governmental organisations al home; that is, for the so-called "voluntary sector". It is widely appreciated that this Government have created—not least, in the international sphere, through the Department for International Development—such a friendly environment. However, all that does not form part of an ethical foreign policy or even an ethical dimension of foreign policy. It is an appreciation that human rights need champions so that attention can be drawn to their violation. In the end, perhaps they can become civil rights entrenched in law with appropriate judicial institutions to make them real for individuals anywhere.
Is that all that I he Government can do? It is actually a great deal. But there is more. The Government can also contribute to creating an international environment which promotes the emergence of civil rights—rights of citizens everywhere. Again, the Government deserve praise and support for what they have done. The human rights legislation makes the UK part of a growing network of countries committed to the entrenchment of basic rights.
Others have commented on the fact that it is pleasing to see in the gracious Speech the promise of a Bill which will enable the United Kingdom to ratify the statute for the International Criminal Court. Here, I agree profoundly with the comments of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham. International judicial institutions are still a patchwork quilt. We are groping for a legal order that is binding on all, and we shall probably go on trying and erring and trying again for a long time to come. But such legal institutions are precisely what governments can promote and support. And, let me add, wherever we belong to networks and organisations which have
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basic rights as an element of their charter, we must not tolerate violations of the charter by any of its members.
An omission, sadly, in the gracious Speech, although one remedied largely in the course of the debate, is in relation to Kosovo. As some of your Lordships know, I grew up in Germany after the war. It was my good fortune to live in the British zone of occupation in which thoughtful and generous men, like the noble Lord, Lord Annan, held important positions. He was Lieutenant Colonel Annan when I first met him in February 1946. Despite the horrible experiences of the war and the unspeakable crimes by Germans, military governments of the western allies created conditions which enabled the new Germany to rise from the ashes and soon take its place in the community of nations. Should this not be much easier in a small part of Europe—Kosovo—which consists above all of victims and not of perpetrators of crimes?
I do not believe that Ernest Bevin would have called the British policy towards Germany "ethical", but it was certainly effective. I believe that we have a grave responsibility not just to protect the warring factions in Kosovo but to make possible the emergence of a province of Europe, which, along with others, will find its place in the redefined European Union.
In this comment on interest and principle in foreign policy, I have avoided the one subject which above all has led the media to pour scorn on the idea of an ethical dimension in foreign policy trade. As a former European Commissioner who preceded the late Lord Soames in the trade portfolio, I have seen a certain amount of trade policy in the making and un-ma king. The subject remains difficult. When I saw the delight of Charlene Barshefsky, the American trade representative, at the completion of negotiations for China's accession to the World Trade Organisation. I could not help thinking of the massacre of Tiananman Square and the suppression of Tibet. However, I also knew that it would not do anyone anywhere any good to use moral disgust at China's violations of human rights as an argument against having the country at the negotiating table.
There are, to be sure, limits to such victories of the head over the heart, but after many years of thinking about them, I still find it difficult to define the line with any precision. That is notably the case when it comes to embargoes and sanctions. When, last week, the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, who alas is no longer with us—at least for the moment—asked about rebuilding the bridges of the Danube to avoid more harm to innocent people and the Government's reply invoked the sanctions against Serbia, I found myself on his side rather than on the side of the Government. When I read that sanctions against the terrible Taliban regime of Afghanistan included a discontinuation of international postal services, that seemed to me wrong.
Nearer home, it is of course distasteful to realise that British arms have helped repression in Indonesia, although I can readily see the conflict for Members of the other place representing constituencies in which arms are manufactured and jobs are therefore at risk.

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There may be better answers than the suggestion to look at trade issues case by case but for precisely that reason it does not help to invoke the ethical dimension of foreign policy. Interest, principle and good sense, which are groomed in lively arguments in your Lordships' House as well as the other place, are probably the only sensible way.
8.41 p.m.
Lord Weidenfeld: My Lords, perhaps I may turn to the Middle East. The imminent visit of Prime Minister Barak of Israel to this country may shed new light on the next and so decisive stage of the Arab/Israel peace process. The Israeli Premier has been speaking confidently about prospects and he has been speaking civilly, even flatteringly, about his actual Palestinian and hoped for Syrian interlocutors. But there are perhaps grounds for muted optimism because the unresolved problems are formidable and touch on other issues concerning the Middle East. Euphoric hopes are out of place, as are unrealistic timetables and the urgings of impatient politicians and media commentators.
The Middle East we now confront presents us with new critical issues that go well beyond the conventionally accepted dimensions. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union the Caucasian states have emerged as significant and eventually vitally important players. Before long, what happens in Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and Azerbaijan will be just as relevant as what occurs now in the Magreb, the Sudan or even the Gulf. Water will rival oil as a strategic as well as economic commodity.
In this context the role of Turkey assumes paramount importance and it is with satisfaction that we should greet the Cardiff declaration of the European Union to accord Turkey the undisputed right to apply for membership. We know that attitudes of different European countries towards this issue have been very differentiated. The most soul searching debates occurred in Germany, where the Turkish minority of more than 2 million people, ranging over three generations, creates problems. But the current government have taken a positive stand. The Foreign Minister has come out with an unconditional pledge to back the application of Turkey.
Turkey's long-term economic prospect could be formidable, as are the immediate problems and deficiencies. But there are very solid building blocks for progress. Turkey has an excellent workforce and a burgeoning middle and managerial class. As someone who happens to have experience with networks in higher education, in Europe, the USA and Israel, I have found that Turkish universities, almost alone in the whole of the Muslim world, can hold their own with the best and most sophisticated centres of learning in the West. Turkey, a partner in NATO, which was good enough to risk the lives of her sons for the Atlantic Alliance, should surely be entitled to the material and social benefits and rights of an expanding Europe. Of course she must meet conditions of social and economic convergence and above all upgrade
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standards of human rights and civil society. President Clinton has just now stressed to the Turkish Prime Minister the need to conform to those standards, to review the status of the Kurds, to reach out to the Greek Cypriots for a workable solution ending the division of the island.
This week in Istanbul, at the meeting of the OSCE, western leaders will speak to President Clerides. A new constitutional construct for the future of Cyprus will have to be found to clear up this contentious issue which stands in the way of Turkey's adherence. The spontaneous humanitarian response of the Greek Government and people in the wake of the Turkish earthquakes has made a deep impression on Turkish public opinion.
The more tangible, credible and cordial our approach to Turkey, the more compassionate and balanced our appreciation of her tremendous problems, the more ready she will be to meet the required standards. But we must also appreciate the size of her diverse problems. She has been twice stricken by dire, natural catastrophe, hurting her economy. She suffers from terrorism within the country. It is far too easy and glib to identify the PKK case with the case for the Kurdish population as a whole. There is a long tradition of social and cultural symbiosis between Turks and Kurds which exists alongside a history of terrible feuding. Furthermore, Turkey lives alongside some unstable and bellicose neighbours. She is the great secular power in Islam, a bastion against the unpredictable carriers of the virus of extremism which menaces not only the region but reaches into the Balkans and even across the Atlantic.
Turkey wishes to maintain friendly relations with the Arab world. The Turkish armed forces are not only reliable members of the NATO alliance but represent a stabilising force in the Middle East. Turkey has close military links with Israel. These links do not threaten the Arab world. On the contrary, they remove much of the ingrained anxiety of the Jewish state at being ringed round by countries whose stability, even in the event of a contractual peace, must not be readily assumed. This Turkish alliance with Israel has been misinterpreted, not only in certain parts of the Arab world but also by critics in this country—usually those who are either consciously or subliminally influenced by an anti-Israel bias. Surprisingly, the BBC also lends itself to sallies of a rather partisan nature on this subject. The Turkish Prime Minister admitted that torture is still practised, but at least he condemns it and promises to abolish it. We must persevere and persist ruthlessly, monitor it and ensure that it is abolished. Let us not forget, however, that there are still unhappy human rights deficits even among countries already declared eligible for membership. I refer to child exploitation on a disturbing scale in Romania and discrimination against and maltreatment of Roma and Sinti in the Czech Republic.
This debate is one of the rare occasions when we can stand back and scrutinise Her Majesty's Government's international behaviour, caught in the dilemma between aspiration and performance—the dilemma between an ethical foreign policy and the

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constraints of realpolitik. Both the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary have repeatedly stressed how much human rights observance and the punishment of human rights transgressions weigh with them. In fact they have been in the vanguard of persisting in bringing war criminals to book and have often stiffened the resolve of their allies. But the grim reality still is that Mr Karadic can freely address his followers in the main square of Srebrenica within a stone's throw of the killing fields; that Milosevic and Saddam Hussein are still in power, indeed even more firmly so than a year ago.
The Government must not be lured into lifting sanctions in both countries on the erroneous grounds that this would ultimately weaken the regime, strengthen the opposition and benefit the people. It would in fact enrich the ruling clans and tighten the grip of the tyrants, who are pinning their hopes on their ability to outstay the visibly tiring alliance, and plotting their revenge, which in the case of Serbia would mean reconquest of territory and in the case of Iraq the undisturbed amassing of chemical and bacteriological arms—but in both cases more misery and loss of human lives.
We have had some interesting and enlightening contributions to the questions of national interest and humanitarian policies. I submit that in the cases of Iraq and Serbia 'the two converge. It is in the national interest of a civilised country to fight against a regime that is preparing arsenals of mass destruction that could within measurable time also affect this continent. I also believe that it is in the national interest to fight the regime in Serbia. That regime has had a destabilising effect on an area of Europe that is within an hour-and-a-half's flying time from here. I do not say that humanitarian and national interests are the same and I do not suggest Quixotic policies. A medieval adage from the city of Nuremberg stated, "We only hang people once we have caught them". It is most certainly not advisable to hit out everywhere in a Quixotic manner. However, if it is within our power to catch the criminal and to do justice, then we should do so.
The announcement from the Government that they will nominate an annual commemoration day for the Holocaust is a commendable gesture in the condemnation of past genocide. But it will lose much of its meaning if we do not do all we can—all we can—to punish all the perpetrators of current and continuing crimes against mankind.
8.51 p.m.
Lord Paul: My Lords, I apologise to the House that I will not be able to stay until the end of the debate. I have a longstanding engagement to attend a function and I should like to show my face there before the end of the evening.
As we conclude the last century of this millennium and look towards another era, it is appropriate that we define our agenda and set our goals for the future. These were, I believe, well defined in the gracious
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Speech yesterday. I congratulate Her Majesty's Government on the perspectives and the proposals they have outlined.
As I reflect upon the gracious Speech, I would like to draw your Lordships' attention to certain concerns that are implicit in its themes and thrust—concerns about democracy and human rights around the world and the importance the Government of Britain attach to them. Of course, in the larger scope of modern history, we have good reason to be pleased at the remarkable progress in the advancement of political liberties. For the first time ever, more than one-half of the people on earth live in nations that are democratic or are moving in that direction. Human rights are now at the top of the international agenda. In those terms it is still an imperfect world, but what a contrast it is from a time barely 60 years ago when only around a dozen countries qualified as democracies.
Britain deserves some credit for this global progress. After all, we have evolved a genuinely democratic, multi-ethnic and multi-cultural society. We have done so without radical upheavals and in many ways there are lessons for others in that. I know, perhaps better than most, the strains and tensions this experience has brought. But I also know that the progress we have achieved has taken place through a process of evolution, a process far more protective of liberties and more successful than some of the revolutionary experiments that have scarred our century. I am vividly reminded of this because it has been my good fortune to be the Chancellor of the University of Wolverhampton. Noble Lords will remember that this was a parliamentary constituency from whence came a different message just a few decades ago. In the pursuit of a more democratic ethos, we still have some way to go. However, I am encouraged by the sensitivity that the Government show in these matters and the ways in which they are moving to that end.
Our history and democratic traditions impose obligations on us. Among those is surely a duty to assist multilateral organisations as they seek to advance democracy and human rights. Let me say that my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary deserves our commendation for his unremitting efforts in the pursuit of these ideals in international forums. That is not often an easy task, given the temper of those gatherings. Britain must continue to promote these causes in such places, especially when they are indifferent to gross abridgements of human rights and human freedoms. That is why I am particularly glad that the Commonwealth is becoming unambiguous on those matters. At this point let me mention that the role of Emeka Anyaoku, the retiring Secretary General, deserves more recognition that it has received. Yet there must be some caution on these matters.
A newly created Commonwealth Ministerial Action Group has been designed to name and shame countries that are foot-dragging on, or violating, democratic and human rights principles. Its mission should be undertaken with great care and discernment lest it become a finger-pointing and preachy body. As my

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right honourable friend the Prime Minister has implied, the Commonwealth does not need more self-righteous talk and words without action.
In that context, noble Lords will be aware of the controversial international debate currently taking place about sovereignty. There are those, such as the Secretary-General of the United Nations, who argue that state sovereignty in the modern world is conditional on the human rights behaviour of governments. Many states resist that notion, maintaining that sovereignty is absolute and that internal affairs are entirely the business of national governments. This is a highly contentious issue and will, from time to time, set Britain's national interests against our commitment to democracy and human rights. I hope that on this issue the Government will soon give your Lordships' House an outline of their principles and policy. We will need to give much more attention to this subject.
Allow me to conclude with a tangential observation. We now have a form of national consensus on free enterprise as a fundamental of our economic system. Most people in this country believe that some kind of market economy is fully compatible with democracy. Britain has supported this proposition around the world and it has served us well both in principle and in practice. However, we need to go further. It is now abundantly clear that market economics will not work properly unless accompanied by the rule of law. It is not coincidental that the rule of law is a basic and much cherished component of our democracy. This is a concept that we can promote anywhere and everywhere without accusations of singing a politically self-serving song or engaging in cultural and economic imperialism. As we endorse elections, representative government and the other appurtenances of democracy around the world, I would also like the value of the rule of law to be given more attention. I think that this will better secure both democracy and markets than rhetorical flourishes about the virtues of freedom.
After a century in which authoritarian politics often looked to be the wave of the future, the tide of history is at last on our side. Such moments do not come easily or cheaply. We must work hard to keep the momentum. We have too often paid the price for not sufficiently nurturing what we have accomplished. That is why I am heartened by the sentiments in the gracious Speech.
9 p.m.
Lord Marlesford: My Lords, I too would like to say a few words about the United Nations, particularly in the context of Britain's defence efforts. It does not matter whether we regard the end of the Cold War as being on 9th November 1989 when the Berlin Wall came down, or two years later when the Soviet Union was dissolved on 26th December 1991. The point is that the era that came to an end once again gave the opportunity for the United Nations to fulfil some of the hopes that its founding fathers had before the Iron
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Curtain descended across Europe and effectively divided the world between political systems based on capitalism and Communism.
Thus the reference in the gracious Speech to the modernisation of the UN and the desire of the Government to make the Security Council more effective and representative, could be of great importance not just to Britain but to the world. I say "could be" because I fear that so far I am somewhat unconvinced by the Government's foreign policy. In general it does not seem to have had the rigour or the success of the Government's economic policy. That wretched phrase of which we have heard so much today, an ethical foreign policy, has long been revealed for what it was, a mere sound bite with little thought of the real difficulties that lie behind it. I very much hope that the Minister will ensure that the Foreign Secretary reads carefully the two fascinating speeches made by the noble Lords, Lord Bridges and Lord Dahrendorf. I found it very worthwhile to hear on the one hand a diplomat wrestling with ethics and, on the other, a philosopher wrestling with diplomacy.
I also fear that the professionalism of the Foreign Office may be undermined by what I believe my noble friend Lord Lawson might say were the A-level thoughts of some teenage scribblers who are employed in Mr Cook's foreign policy centre. As the noble Lord, Lord Owen, pointed out to us, these matters are very difficult and not susceptible to jejune solutions.
I do not have the same criticism of the Government's defence policy. I have the highest regard for the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, who was a splendid defence secretary. I believe that he will be an excellent Secretary-General for NATO.
This evening I want to probe a little more deeply into exactly what the Government intend as regards the UN and the Security Council. I imagine that a number of us have read the article in the Economist of September 1999 by the Secretary-General of the UN, Mr Kofi Annan, in which he gives his own ideas of the way forward. I admit that I found his views clearer in highlighting the problems than they were in offering solutions. For example, he seeks to redefine sovereignty away from the sovereignty of the state towards the sovereignty of the individual, when he states that the aim of the UN Charter is,
"To protect individual human beings, not to protect those who abuse them".
No one for a moment would dispute or disagree with that as a desirable objective, but for the UN to attempt to carry that out could lead it into a mire of confusion. As the noble Lord, Lord Dahrendorf, pointed out, this should be the role of some of the international organisations and national organisations which are directly concerned with human rights, which in certain cases have been so successful.
I found it a moving and remarkable experience to listen to my noble friend Lady Cox and her description of what was happening in two parts of the world which she knows so intimately and which she has investigated with such personal courage. If ever there was a case for your Lordships' House being different from another place, that particular speech highlighted it.

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I do not believe that the concept of a sovereign state seeking to advance its national interest is about to wither away. Any government which gave the electorate that impression would not find themselves immensely popular with that electorate.
Mr Blair is not the first Prime Minister to seek to be in some respects his own Foreign Secretary and I can quite see why he is doing so. Indeed, I have no problem in recognising that Mr Blair has become a major international figure. As regards the UN, he has the opportunity to enhance or to reduce irreversibly Britain's national interests.
I have read with care the Prime Minister's Chicago speech of 22nd April this year on the United Nations. In it he said,
"The most pressing foreign policy problem that we face is to identify the circumstances in which we should get actively involved in other people's affairs".
The Prime Minister's five questions that he believed we must answer before deciding to intervene are a good start. They are these. Are we sure of our case? Have we exhausted diplomacy? Are there practical military options? What about the long term? Do we have national interests? In answering them, we must remember two crucial advantages that Britain has.
First, we hold one of the five veto seats on the Security Council. That is our lasting reward for the time when we as a country stood alone against tyranny in the world, between the fall of Paris on 22nd June 1940 and the invasion of Russia by Germany on 22nd June 1941. That seat means that we can never be required to become involved in UN operations with which we do not agree. We can simply veto the Security Council resolution that would authorise them. That is why our veto seat is a national asset beyond price. I hope that the Government will assure us that they have no plans to surrender it, or indeed to trade it. It cannot of course be taken from us. Any proposal to remove it would itself be subject to veto.
Our second advantage is that we have military forces with standards of professionalism, equipment, discipline, diplomacy, integrity and valour which, taken together, are not surpassed by any other country in the world. I particularly echo the doubts expressed on the idea of a European army by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Bramall, and the noble Lord, Lord Owen.
Unfortunately, our military forces are small. They are already greatly over-stretched. We cannot easily afford to expand them within the present budgetary constraints. Yet the world will increasingly need our forces. Since 1989 there have been 35 UN-led (blue-helmeted) operations; there has been British military participation in 17 of them. In addition, there have been five UN-authorised operations (which means multi-national forces or coalitions of the willing) and Britain has provided troops for all of them. I should like to know the gross and net cost to the British taxpayer of each of those operations. If the Minister does not have the information now, perhaps she will write to me.
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That brings me to a point that I raised recently with the noble Baroness, Lady Symons; namely, the urgent need for the provision of military forces for operations authorised by the UN to be separated from the funding of them. There should be a principle of 100 per cent reimbursement to the providers of military forces from a military fund to which all members of the UN should contribute in proportion to their GNP. I recognise that that is more easily said than done. But I hope that we shall work towards that and that the Government will tell us that they agree.
Then there is the real status of UN Security Council resolutions in international law. It is a very uncertain area. There could be great disturbance to the present delicate balance of authority that Security Council resolutions have if the composition of the council were to be disturbed.
The Security Council is the one place where the scope and need for the most skilful traditional diplomacy survives. The need to obtain the agreement of five potential veto members is often hard enough. If that number were to be increased by one or two, it might be possible. But it is hard to see that any increase would not actually amount to nine or 10. Then, I do not believe that the thing would work. There would be a danger of the UN reverting to the impotence of the Cold War period. I should be even more concerned if the proposal, floated by Mr Kofi Annan in his article in the Economist, to by-pass the Security Council in giving a mandate for UN military intervention were to be implemented.
There needs to be a great deal more thought on the implications for UN intervention than so far appears to be given by either HMG or the UN. There is a need for a detailed political, organisational, legal, moral, logistical and financial framework. It could start with something like a Ditchley conference or even a series of Ditchley conferences. Any proposed changes to the organisation of the UN or the structure and role of the Security Council must be fully debated in Parliament before they are agreed. I suggest that when the Government have gone further with their thinking, they might consider publishing a Green Paper which would enable us all to discuss the proposals.
9.14 p.m.
Lord Williamson of Horton: My Lords, this debate has been wide and I support those who exhorted the Government to use their maximum diplomatic efforts in the cruel conflicts in Sudan, Chechnya and elsewhere. Notably, I support the intervention of the noble Baroness, Lady Cox. I wish to say a word about the European Union, as I have much, perhaps too much, experience in that area. As time goes by, many of the decisions and proposals in the European Union might be best described as "home affairs" rather than "international affairs". Some matters may come up elsewhere during the days of debate on the Address. The issues I wish to raise are still international matters. I am sure that the noble Baroness, Lady Scotland, will feel quite at home with them.

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In the gracious Speech there are many general phrases about the European Union, in particular that the United Kingdom Government will take a leading role, with partners. That is a lovely phrase, but it is the implementation that counts, including the implementation in the current year. It is like ballroom dancing: I always take a leading role with partners and nearly always tread on their toes. It is possible that the implementation does not match the general objective.
During the coming Session the Government will be called upon to deal with some business in the European Union which will profoundly affect not only our citizens but our relations with the rest of the world. The principal agenda for the European Union has hardly ever been clearer. It is clear and it is what I described elsewhere as "the triple whammy". There are three main elements. First, there are the next steps on economic and monetary union as preparations are finalised not in Britain but elsewhere for the issue of euro notes and coins in the euro zone. That will change the perception of the euro from being a subject for political and academic discussion to an immediate issue for millions of citizens. It will give the euro a higher profile in international monetary discussions and with the citizens of many other countries.
I hope that the design of the euro coins, at least the European face, will be well received since I chaired the panel which recommended that design to Ministers. The poet T.S. Eliot said that,
"their only monument … a thousand lost golf balls".
When I die, my only memorial will be a thousand lost euro coins.
I do not ask the noble Baroness, Lady Scotland, to comment on Britain and the euro. I consider that there is time for that after the next election.
The second element of the triple whammy is the enlargement to a number of applicant countries and I wish to say a word about that. The importance of the coming change has not been fully understood in the United Kingdom. The enlarged union, which runs up to the borders of the old Soviet Union, will be a very different mixture of national traditions and of richer and poorer countries. Over 100 million people have asked to join our union, which will have almost 500 million people, twice the number in the United States and three times the number in Russia.
It is a more immediate issue since the preparations for the negotiations began quite a long time ago. Time is passing. The principal purpose of the Commission's communication Agenda 2000, which came out in July 1997, was to put the European Union in a position to launch the accession negotiations on a fully researched and firm basis. It was a good example of the European Commission working well, in particular with the analysis of the position in the applicant states and the analysis of how we are to finance it within the current budget ceiling, at least up to 2005 or 2006. So we have set off the negotiations but we must not lose the impulsion. There is a certain risk of that at present. If that happens it is a serious political risk. We have set ourselves on this course and we must continue. During
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this year the United Kingdom Government should make maximum effort to gain an idea of the really difficult issues in these important negotiations, at least with the first group of countries. I refer to questions such as the transition periods, the free movement of people, the application of environmental legislation and so on.
In addition, we are told that there is to be another intergovernmental conference in the near future. I note that we have not given it too much publicity. I am not sure that it will be the world's most popular proposal. That conference is to deal with certain reforms in the present Union not settled at Amsterdam which are considered relevant to enlargement. I shall return to this in a moment because I believe that it is a very important point which so far has not had much attention.
The third part of the triple whammy is the implementation of the Treaty of Amsterdam, notably in the area of common foreign and security policy and citizen-sensitive areas such as immigration and asylum and the fight against organised crime. For myself, I consider that the provisions of the Treaty of Amsterdam on foreign policy are a clear improvement on Maastricht since it will now be the heads of government who set strategy guidelines in some important areas and decision-making by Ministers will be eased. In short, I believe that the United Kingdom Government will have their hands full in working with their European Union partners, and to some degree with the European Parliament and Commission, on these three major issues and in continued action to ensure that the single market works effectively and fairly on the ground and that the liberalising trend of recent years in both the EU and the world continues.
I believe that what has been achieved since the launch of the single market is a miracle. The EU played a major role in the Uruguay round of international trade negotiations. As a number of noble Lords have said, this is an area in which the United Kingdom Government had a decisive role in the tide of liberalisation. We can continue that role in the year ahead, notably in further international negotiations on trade barriers which are coming, albeit with some difficulty. At the same time, we should seek to settle some of the other important but smaller problems, such as bananas. That is an important matter for some parts of the world and our relations with them, but it is somewhat bizarre when it is considered that the European Union imports 1.1 million tonnes of bananas from South America and 1.3 million tonnes from Central America, which would fill a big space in this Chamber, and banana exports by the United States could be easily accommodated on the Government Front Bench.
I turn to specific aspects of the major issues and pose a few questions to the noble Baroness, Lady Scotland. When many years ago I was private secretary to a Minister in your Lordships' House there was great disappointment if no specific questions were put to which the Minister could give pithy answers. Therefore, I should like to oblige the noble Baroness. I do not believe that these questions are politically

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controversial, which is perhaps a good thing given the current state of politics on European affairs in the United Kingdom where some distinguished politicians are (to coin a phrase) in the Conservative Party but not run by it.
As to enlargement, do the Government realistically expect the European Union and the applicant states to have identified during the coming year the key issues that must be settled before accession? Are we or are we not on that timetable? Do the Government see any advantage in setting a target date for completion of negotiations, as some people argue? How do the Government view the objectives of the intergovernmental conference? Do they see it as potentially making radical changes with a view to enlargement or principally as an opportunity to complete unfinished business from Amsterdam, such as the weighting of votes between member states and the number of commissioners in an enlarged Union?
The handling of the intergovernmental conference is important. History shows that the number of subjects in an intergovernmental conference tends to increase to fill the time available. That is what has occurred in the past. We are in the exactly opposite position to the United States, where there have been only 26 amendments of the Constitution since the founding; and only 13 since the abolition of slavery. But we have an enormous number of changes proposed. There is a risk that in such circumstances changes which may involve some loss of sovereignty get into the package almost by accident. How we handle the intergovernmental conference is an important point for the United Kingdom.
Finally, perhaps I may say a brief word on the reference in the gracious Speech to over-complex legislation and bureaucracy. There is much to be done there in the United Kingdom and in the European Union on secondary legislation. The message which I pass. if I may, through the noble Baroness, Lady Scotland, to the Secretary of State is that it is important not just to change the structure of the Commission but also to change what the Commission does. It is essential to reduce or scrap some of the minor tasks which clog up the administration and give rise to dispute with the Parliament and Court of Auditors out of al. proportion to the possible benefits from the schemes and often increase the burdens on those who seek to make the schemes work.
That is my message on that point. I hope that my questions will receive the pithy answers which I forecast.
9.26 p.m.
Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne: My Lords, I have no special questions for the noble Baroness, Lady Scotland, but I shall listen with great interest to the replies that she gives to the previous speaker and earlier speakers.
Your Lordships' debate is very different from a debate that I engaged in recently in the Maltings in Farnham, Surrey, where there were demonstrations of xenophobia, racism, anti-Semitism and an
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extraordinary desire to rewrite Britain's history and to target Germany as forever evil. I am concerned that while the European debate goes on we should not ignore the rise of the hard Right wing, if I may so define it, looking at Austria, Switzerland and—I am most sad to say—the United Kingdom. Indeed, I found this week a small quotation in a newspaper which I wish to share. The article is headed "Bad-terms policy". It states:
"This country cannot have a foreign policy, because it possesses Nationalists, that is to say men for whom patriotism consists of being on bad terms with the rest of the world, and who amuse themselves by raising up difficulties abroad to demolish Government".
As in 1899, with the French (according to Figaro), it is just the same in 1999 in the United Kingdom, Austria, Switzerland and elsewhere. I suggest that the nation state concept, wilfully misapplied this century, has led to separation, strife and bloodshed, xenophobia and racism, and has brought again, as in 1899, a call to all of us now for the same strength of purpose to combat division that we had to call upon at the turn of this century.
Coming from the European Parliament, I believe that national identity is best expressed today in an integrated, enlarged Europe; and that the enlargement of Europe is the best way to secure peace for upwards of half a billion people. I believe that beyond Europe, the enlarged and integrated Europe can negotiate well with the Magreb and the Persian Gulf; that Britain's historic links can be brought into play best in the dimension of an integrated Europe; and that we can then negotiate with China, now, happily, coming into the World Trade Organisation. Thus we can work best as a nation state for global stability.
These are uncharted waters. We have had the excitement of 50 years of peace and prosperity, now about to be transformed into a wider Europe. Can we successfully enlarge the formula while still keeping the original strength and flavour? That is the challenge.
In the European Union, we are committed to integrate more countries into the Union as soon as possible. A European Union of even 30 members is perfectly possible in the medium-term future, even if it does involve large and fundamental institutional changes. For enlargement is not only a political necessity, but surely it is also our moral duty towards people who have suffered 40 years of occupation by the Soviet army and have not broken their chains. Czechs, Hungarians, Poles; these are our partners, our European neighbours, our cousins. They are just as European as we are and perhaps they look upon themselves as even more so.
In this context, the Commission now proposes to extend negotiations on accession beyond the initial six plus one, which was published in Agenda 2000 (Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovenia, Estonia and Cyprus) to all the applicant countries, now numbering 12, including Lithuania, Latvia, Slovakia, Bulgaria and Romania, even though there are some special conditions, which I shall mention later, in the cases of Bulgaria and Romania.

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I welcome that move by the Commission. There is no doubt that that positive signal has already been appreciated in the countries involved. Instead of having six, we now have 12 in the front line for the enlargement of the European Union. And, in fact, we do not have 12; we have a baker's dozen because Turkey has been recognised by the Commission as a genuine applicant. No longer are we playing games with Turkey, just giving it a little through the customs union, but at last we have come to the crunch and said, "Yes, Turkey is a genuine entrant".
That has brought into question our observations about what the European Union really is. To my way of thinking, that moves us on, and rightly so, from the Europe of Constantine perhaps to the Europe of Alexander. The change of attitude of the European Union towards Turkey follows the considerable softening of the Greek position after not one but now two earthquakes. I see that as most positive because for me the accession of Turkey has been a goal for more than 15 years. At the end of a long process, I am sure that Turkey will enter because the process will also involve welcome solutions to issues of human rights, the Turkish Kurds, Cyprus and the Aegean Sea.
Surely, therefore, our goal must be to open negotiations with all the candidates. I do not believe that binding target dates are proper in this case. Target dates will merely disappoint the potential entrants. Nonetheless, surely President Prodi's goal of signing the first treaties by the end of 2004 is excellent. For that to happen, the European Union, we ourselves, have to have achieved significant internal reform by 2002. We cannot afford failure at the next intergovernmental conference.
One of the consequences of the early accessions will be the existence of new and significant transitional periods. We remember that Spain and Portugal were granted generous transitional periods in several key areas; sometimes seven years long from 1985 to 1992. Surely, there is no reason why central European countries cannot benefit from the same treatment. Therefore we have to look carefully at pre-accession strategies, in particular at the Poland/Hungary economic reform programme known as PHARE.
PHARE has been the main support tool from the European Union to candidate countries, not just to Poland and Hungary but now to all the countries of central Europe. It has helped a great deal, particularly in the areas of integration of the acquis communautaire into international legislative corpus. But there is room for improvement. It should be more transparent, more accountable and more closely monitored. Alas, those three words ring true for much of the European Union's programmes, as we have seen yet again from another negative order report in the past week. It is in the mutual interest of the European Union (better use of public money) and the candidate countries(faster accession) to improve the effectiveness of PHARE.
I suggest that we must not forget the Balkans and the CIS. Accession to the European Union is the ultimate goal for the Balkans too. Institutional tools
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such as the stability pact already exist and we must put them to work without delay. We must provide all the support that we can to agencies at work in places such as Kosovo. They cannot fail.
I recently accompanied Madame Nicole Fontaine to Kosovo. She declared that:
"Political Europe was born in Pristina".
Let us hope that that political Europe in Pristina does not degenerate into yet more separatism, as it is threatening to do. I myself am a member of the foreign affairs committee, which has the lengthy and appropriate title of the Committee for Foreign Affairs, Human Rights and Common Defence and Security Policy. I am its first vice-chairman. I have been given Romania to look at and to nourish into becoming a full and appropriate member of the European Union. I know Romania and have visited the country since 1990. The revolution in 1989 uncovered an unhappy picture. Romania was among the poorest of the countries locally and among those which had suffered most under the heel of dictatorship. Communism and dictatorship made miserable bedfellows and drove the Romanian people right down to scale the depths of poverty.
It is perhaps for that reason that over the past decade Romania seems to have progressed less well than other central European countries. In order to achieve successful liberal democracies there have been several changes internally and attempts to struggle with great problems; for example, that of child orphans, as well as with establishing democratic institutional frameworks. We must put a lot of work into Romania. Our target is to support the country's efforts to join the European Union as soon as possible. Romanians are hopeful of that genuine offer. I shall be in Romania this weekend to discuss with members of the government and the population how they may translate that optimism into practical actions to meet the criteria.
The primary objective for Romania now is to meet the Copenhagen criteria set by the European Union as the two main prerequisites for accession to the European Union, which are stable democratic institutions and a full-speed market economy with special effort required in assistance to childcare institutions. Total PHARE funding for central Europe will reach £1 billion per year between 2000 and 2005. Those funds are vital and their employment must be optimised.
I turn briefly to the Gulf to consider Iraq, where there are war crimes, including environmental war crimes; where sanctions are still in place; where the Iraqi people are not our enemy and never have been but are suffering desperately under the dictator. The United Kingdom supports the Iraqi people in their fight for freedom. However, their bids for freedom, as individuals and as groups, are stifled by torture, destroyed by imprisonment and, ultimately, despatched by execution.
I pay tribute to the extraordinary bravery which some individual men and women have shown and which some groups are displaying. I pay tribute to

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their endurance, their courage and the faith that they still maintain that someone somewhere cares and will act. The trouble is that we have no solution for practising single rather than dual containment. By that, the West manages to protect the region and to stem Iraqi aerial assaults on her defenceless Shi'ites and Iraqi Kurds But aerial support cannot stop ethnic cleansing, nor secure the release of prisoners. I know that while sanctions have been in place 300 palaces have been built, in which the tyrant hides. Mosques have been enhanced by that most non-Muslim man who has driven the people into greater misery and poverty.
Who can resolve the crisis? Only the Iraqi people, the opposition inside and outside Iraq can do that. I welcome the 8 million dollars for which the US Congress has voted to support the Iraqi opposition, and the 2 million dollars which it has set aside for other projects of that nature.
If the Iraqi opposition succeed I hope there will be no revenge slaughtering of others around Saddam. I am sure that the regime of "rule by fear" has made many other harmless people carry out the most dreadful deeds. We outside Iraq should press and work with the United Nations to lead the task of the rehabilitation of Iraq from the southern marshlands up to the northern tip of Kurdistan.
I cannot leave the topic of the Gulf without commenting on the bravery of the families in Kuwait. The loss of 0.1 per cent of that population has led to many personal tragedies. The public pain of the invasion that Kuwait bore so bravely and the ugly and repugnant scenes of cruelty do not leave the Kuwaiti minds. The Kuwaiti prisoners of war in Iraqi prisons seem to have disappeared. We must continue to work to get them released.
Finally, on Iran, I am so grateful to our Government and to those who work with the Government for building up relationships with the largest country in the Persian Gulf. This is a unique chance to reshape our policies in the region in the wake of the Cold War era. Britain had special and lengthy relationships with Iran and at last we are able to enlarge our trade and to work together on cultural issues. Recently I spent two days in Iran speaking to their first global international conference on ageing. It is most important that we should work in that country.
Earlier the Minister said that Britain's place in the world was to concentrate on tackling poverty and conflict prevention, and that our foreign policy should be grounded in the security of our country. I believe that to fulfil those goals our tasks are to support the Commonwealth, to work to strengthen our ties with North America, and, above all, to contribute to the security of the wider world by working for a larger, deeper and better integrated European Union.
9.42 p.m.
Lord Moran: My Lords, I am a little surprised to be here tonight. I am grateful to my hereditary Cross-Bench colleagues for doing me the honour of electing
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me to survive the holocaust of the 5th November. To be allowed to address your Lordships once more is a privilege.
I intend to speak on a subject that I told my colleagues concerned me—namely, Europe—about which there is a bland paragraph in the gracious Speech. I listened with interest to the speech of my noble friend Lord Williamson, who served with distinction as Secretary-General of the European Commission for, I believe, 10 years. He speaks with exceptional knowledge. I fear I have a rather more jaundiced view of what goes on in Brussels.
Noble Lords may remember the curious incident of the dog in the night time in the Sherlock Holmes story Silver Blaze. The dog did nothing and remained silent when the villain led out the horse. In the last week or two there has been a similarly curious silence during the extraordinary actions of the French Government in refusing to admit British beef after the European Union and its scientific advisers had pronounced it safe. As far as I know there has been not a cheep from the leading Euro-fanatics in this country. They have preserved an embarrassed silence.
Two months ago in the Daily Telegraph the Prime Minister wrote that, in contrast to the incompetence and extremism of the Conservatives, his Government had worked with our European partners to get the beef ban lifted and that he would give our farmers support in recapturing lost markets. The Daily Telegraph's leader of the same day said that the Prime Minister was entitled to boast about the lifting of the beef ban and that it was something which he has been announcing for two years which has now happened. But it has not, at least not yet. The Prime Minister was wrong-footed. It is difficult not to see the French action as an attempt to damage our beef trade in the interests of their farmers.
In the light of that bizarre episode, which is merely the most outrageous of the periodic efforts of some of our so-called partners to do us down, it is surely necessary for us all to think seriously about whether our present relationship with continental Europe is the best available.
I was impressed by the thoughtful speech of the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, this afternoon on this issue. Those others who have been critical of the European Union and who were opposed to the Maastricht Treaty have, I think, three groups of causes for concern. To begin with, the EU itself is a far from satisfactory institution. There are times when I find myself so exasperated that I agree with a Mr Ellerby, who wrote to the Daily Telegraph saying:
"Sir: I am 97 and have considerable experience of the modern histories of Germany, France and Belgium. I can only conclude that any Briton in favour of our further involvement in Europe should seek medical advice".
Looking at it in more detail, there is the common agricultural policy, historically the heart and soul of the EU, enormously costly and described by Mr Blair himself as
"a manifest absurdity which discredits Europe".

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The common fisheries policy is equally damaging, allowing other countries to take large parts of our once great but now diminishing fish stocks. It is supposed to be based on national quotas but this did not prevent the Spanish quota-hoppers moving in, and the Conservative Government's efforts to protect our fisheries have resulted in fines of millions of pounds which we taxpayers will have to pay to the Spaniards.
Our contributions to Community funds remain enormous—I think the figure was £9.5 billion this year—and disproportionate. We pay excessive amounts relative to our wealth, while other countries like the Republic of Ireland, Spain and Greece do extremely well. Fraud in the Community, as the late Lord Benson used to explain to your Lordships with great knowledge and authority, is sadly endemic and deeply rooted.
The management at the top leaves a lot to be desired, as was demonstrated by the resignation and disgrace of the previous Commission, many of whom, however, have returned to their posts as though nothing had happened. All in all, it is not an encouraging picture. We are again and again involved in disputes where we are in the right, but in a minority of one or two. There is the very recent "ganging up" of all our partners, except Luxembourg, on the withholding tax because, as the noble Lord, Lord Boardman, told us the other day, the Germans cannot manage to get a grip on their own tax evaders and so want to saddle us with a tax which would evidently do serious harm to the City, lose us thousands of jobs and drive a valuable trade out of the EU altogether. There is the damage to the London art market, which has been fully described to your Lordships. Our partners often give the impression of wanting to damage our national interests.
It is argued by the Europhiles that inside the EU we have influence and can fight our corner effectively. In practice, our influence appears to be minimal and we are constantly in the losing minority. I think the patience of our people may not be inexhaustible.
Perhaps most important of all, there is, I am convinced, a fundamental misfit in our membership of the EU as it has developed. No reasonable person can any longer doubt that the whole thrust of the EU is to build a single European state. This was the original aspiration of Jean Monnet and it is the clear aim of Romano Prodi, as it was of Jacques Delors and Jacques Santer, and of the governments of the member states apart from ourselves. Progress towards "ever closer union" has been the driving force behind Maastricht, Amsterdam, the inter-governmental conferences, the day-to-day work of the Commission, the Court and now the European Central Bank. If I were a Belgian or an Italian I should support it. But it is manifestly not what the British people want. We alone do not wish to be submerged in a European super-state.
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But we face inexorable pressure to go along with European integration, as all our MEPs and officials know very well. Romano Prodi wants to reduce or eliminate remaining national vetoes and to increase the scope of qualified majority voting, although my noble friend Lord Owen has told us that there is really no scope for that. Our capacity to look after our interests, to secure opt-outs and rebates, is being rapidly eroded.
The immediate key question is whether we are to abandon our currency and adopt the euro. This would be a further giant step towards the creation of a European state and would be essentially a political and constitutional decision—not, as the Government and the euro fanatics dishonestly pretend, a purely economic one.
I was interested in the points made on this by my noble friend Lord Owen. Mr Major, the man who signed up to Maastricht and denied the people of this country the possibility of choosing what they wanted in a referendum, told the students of Harvard that our participation in the euro is "an inevitability". But your Lordships may have seen the comments by Sir John Coles, who served in Brussels and was, until two years ago, Permanent Under-Secretary at the Foreign Office. He is reported as saying that entering the euro could seriously damage British influence in Europe and across the world; that,
"the process of centralisation overshadows everything",
and that by staying out of the euro we shall help to slow, and hopefully stop, the process.
Sir John and other distinguished people who are against our joining the euro, nevertheless stop short of saying that we should leave the EU. So does the Conservative Party. That party has now taken a robust line in defence of the pound, even though the old guard of the party describe this as "mad" or "incalculable folly". Their change of front is welcome, but their slogan, "In Europe but not run by Europe", though striking a chord with the electorate, as was shown in the European elections, is an unattainable ideal. If by "in Europe" they mean belonging to the EU, then we are increasingly "run by Europe". We long ago surrendered control of agriculture, fisheries and trade, and every year more of our affairs are run by Brussels and this Parliament and our Government decide less and less.
The Europhiles habitually describe Eurosceptics as extremists. But it is surely they who are extremists, seeking as they do to abolish our currency and what remains of our independence and to hand over control of our affairs to unelected commissioners and bureaucrats who know nothing of this country. It is surely not extreme to deplore the way we have turned our backs on our old friends in Canada, Australia and New Zealand, even compelling their nationals to stand in the "other countries" queue at Heathrow.
I am amazed that so many prominent members of the political class in this country are dedicated to European integration. To me their attitude is hard to understand. But worse than that, many of them, from both parties, have when in power told the people of

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this country again and again what they must know is untrue—that the Community is moving towards the transfer of power from Brussels back to national governments; that subsidiarity is a safeguard; and that we can, within the EU, preserve our freedom of action as a sovereign nation. Not surprisingly, fewer and fewer people now believe them. But the Government continue to edge us gradually nearer and nearer to the ultimate goal of a European state, and if they run into criticism they tend to say that we are now so firmly embedded in the EU that we cannot resume the conduct of our own affairs.
One of the undoubted successes of the Euro-fanatics has been to get it established that to leave the EU is unthinkable, since it would have dreadful consequences for all of us and that this course is only advocated by lunatics. So the Conservative Party and indeed many Eurosceptics maintain that we should stay within the EU but work to make things better and stem the integrationist tide. That is a respectable policy but one which I believe has no prospect of success.
We are in practice faced with only two alternatives—either to continue as we are in the EU, knowing that we are bound to be dragged slowly but surely into the European state our partners want to see; or to work out a new, looser and more satisfactory relationship with Europe. I have no doubt which is the wise course for this country. We should apply our minds to working out a positive alternative to integration. We should certainly preserve the common European market, which is even more valuable to our European trading partners than it is to us. But we need to opt out of the CAP, the CFP and the jurisdiction of the court and to stand aside from the drive to create a single state. No doubt there would be howls of abuse. But our partners need our market and it would be strongly in their interest to reach an accommodation. I am sure that, if handled properly, we could negotiate a readjustment that would work. Norway and Switzerland already have arrangements which give them free trade with the EU. The European Economic Area, which grew out of EFTA, provides a useful blueprint.
A new relationship would free us from the constant rows we have at present and allow us to form a friendlier, more sensible relationship with our continental neighbours. Having one's in-laws living in one's house is a recipe for rows. Separate establishments promote harmony.
We must start now, without delay, to work out the details. The Government ought to do this, but they will not. So the various bodies now proposing entry to the euro should do it for them. They must get economists, bankers, lawyers, businessmen, farmers, fishermen and others to work cut plans for a readjustment which will be fair to all a id secure British interests. They must also spell out the advantages of this course to the British people. I believe that such a readjustment would give an immense boost to our self-confidence. It would be a great and exciting adventure and set our country on a new course with great prospects for the future. I should be happy to be part of it.
9.54 p.m.
Lord Vivian: My Lords, I hope that I may take noble Lords back to the defence of the realm. I shall come to the Strategic Defence Review in due course. I wish to start with the most pressing issue confronting the Army now—the overstretch due to over-commitment to which many of your Lordships have referred.
Recently, the Army was deploying 47 per cent. of its troops to prepare for, carry out and recover from operations. The outcome is that the Army has been unable to retain trained soldiers in their corps or regiments. Soldiers are trained extremely well for operations. They relish the opportunity to take part in them. The trouble lies in the frequency of these deployments, leaving wives and families on their own time after time. The average interval between tours ranges from between about seven months for the Royal Signals and Royal Engineers to about 15 months for armoured and infantry regiments. That is clearly too much as the main reason for married personnel leaving the Army is separation from their families for operational deployments.
Recruiting has never been better; it is up 12 per cent on the projected figures and is currently providing a small net inflow of about 25 soldiers per month. However, unless retention can be dramatically increased, it will take a long time to bring the Army up to its proper establishment. Some 3,500 applicants bid for the 350 places at the Army Foundation College. It is hoped that an increase to the capacity at that college can now be realised. Clearly, we should establish more such colleges and should never have abolished the junior leaders regiments.
I am not against the proposal to recruit young individuals who have been involved in petty crime as first offenders. But if, after careful selection, recruiting these individuals should take place, great care must be taken not to allow the parents of children who wish to enlist into the Armed Forces of the Crown to feel that their children are joining a bunch of criminals. It will not be easy to overcome this reaction. The Ministry of Defence should consider the matter carefully, otherwise other young people will not enlist.
How can the problem of over-stretch be addressed to staunch a serious outflow? I am well aware that the 47 per cent of men and women involved in operations has been reduced now to about 35 per cent. and that we have withdrawn a whole brigade from the Balkans. Our contribution to the military forces in Kosovo is now only about 10 per cent. of all troops there. Reduction of soldiers on unaccompanied tours of duty in peacekeeping or peace enforcement will help keep families together and thus provide less reason for leaving the Armed Forces. A larger Army would also help as unaccompanied tours of duty would come round less frequently, although in reality this is probably not practical. However, a larger Army could be achieved by the deployment of the Territorial Army which should certainly be able to undertake peacekeeping and humanitarian duties. I believe that it would acquit itself well.

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Of course, if some troops are withdrawn from Northern Ireland, this will also relieve overstretch. But how can we retain those who have decided to leave in the immediate future, over the next few months? One measure might be to offer those undertaking more than one six-month operational deployment each year a bounty of £5,000 per married person and £3,000 per unmarried person for every extra tour carried out. That would not amount to great expenditure and those I have spoken to seem attracted by the proposal, saying that it would cause them to remain in the forces. Unless immediate action is taken we will not have an army capable of deployment. As many of your Lordships have said, such action must consist of either more resources or fewer commitments.
The real sting in the tail of the Strategic Defence Review was the imposition by the Treasury of 3 per cent savings to be found by the Ministry of Defence from its budget each year. This matter has already been touched upon. I believe that virtually all the efficiency savings that can be made have been achieved and that an additional 3 per cent saving can only be highly detrimental to the Armed Forces of the Crown.
Can the Minister give the House an assurance that training will not be cut; that delivery of weapons, equipment and spare parts will not be slowed down; that future weapon programmes will be kept on schedule; that all agreed pay and personnel matters will be met; that married quarters will be refurbished as planned; and that the Centre for Defence Medicine will go ahead as plotted? Can the Minister also confirm that the new smart procurement procedures might produce much of the required 3 per cent savings?
A number of the Strategic Defence Review recommendations have been carried out. The aspects of "jointery" show some progress. But what steps have been taken to set up the pool of rapid reaction forces and the joint helicopter command? When will they be operational? Are the other joint projects on schedule?
It is pleasing to note that the 3rd Division has been relieved of its regional administrative responsibilities and that 16 Air Assault Brigade has been formed. However, can the Minister give the estimated in-service dates for the two new aircraft carriers, the 55 Euro fighters and the four new roll-on-roll-off container ships? May I also ask whether the sixth operational brigade, 12 Mechanised Brigade, and the extra reconnaissance regiment will be operational on time and, if so, when?
The formation readiness cycle has not been achieved, mainly due to the Kosovo situation and the fact that the sixth brigade has not yet been formed. Your Lordships may remember that the underlying assumptions in the Strategic Defence Review were for the Army to be able to deploy a brigade quickly as part of the new Joint Rapid Reaction Force; to be able to mount two brigade-sized operations concurrently and to sustain one of them indefinitely; to deploy a war-fighting division; to continue to support NATO; and to sustain troops in support of our other interests in the world, including Northern Ireland. In view of the
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continuing lack of retention of servicemen and women in the Army, I wonder whether it is realistic to rely on these assumptions now.
I have already touched on the Territorial Army, but I would remind your Lordships that the TA has been restructured with a view to deployment on operational missions with the Regular Army. So far, in the main, only individuals in the TA have been sent to reinforce the Army on operational duty. Surely the time has come when whole Territorial Army units or sub-units should be deployed on operations such as peacekeeping or humanitarian tasks, which would relieve some overstretch in regular units. If we wish to retain a well trained regular army, various regiments of the TA should be sent to relieve troops in Bosnia and other parts of the world.
I turn to the issue of the Defence Medical Services. Although I have addressed this subject on many occasions in your Lordships' House, the situation has not improved. It has deteriorated. There is a real crisis in existence as the Defence Medical Services were short of about 2,500 personnel as at 1st June this year. I am not aware that the situation has improved in any way since then. Morale is low and future prospects are poor. Immediate action must be taken to rectify the crisis; otherwise the Defence Medical Services will collapse due to lack of staff.
Once again, the problems would appear to stem mainly from poor recruiting and lack of retention. Within the Army, the Royal Army Medical Corps units can support only a medium-scale deployment for operations, and even this may be in doubt as they are well below establishment. If that is the case, Royal Army Medical Corps reservists would have to be called up. Even that is questionable as the reserves themselves are well below strength.
How can that problem be addressed? The situation would be improved somewhat if the Ministry of Defence recruited from overseas. It is understood that there may be available a number of consultants and specialists within the United States of America due to a run-down in their own armed forces. There are also some in Canada, Australia and New Zealand who would welcome a short contract from the British Army. Considerable-sized bounties should be paid to the current consultants and specialists in an attempt to stem the outflow. The Royal Hospital at Haslar should not be run down or closed until the Centre for Defence Medicine is functioning well. Steps should have been taken by now to ensure that National Health Service trusts do not forbid their staff joining the reserves. Military training time should be made available in military district hospital units and proper mess facilities found within them as well.
I should like to touch on the TA medical resources. Before I do so, I must declare an interest as I am Honorary Colonel to 306 Field Hospital. There is insufficient time to draw your Lordships' attention to TA medical problems in any great detail. However, there are some immediate concerns. There have been establishment changes to provide for more consultants and specialists, but that has been at the expense of

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combat medical technicians. However, it has not been possible to recruit those additional doctors. Yet the combat medical technicians have been discharged at a time when anyone with any medical skill is desperately required. That is quite ludicrous as the net result is weak and undermanned units.
The next point is that all field hospitals except one is a specialist unit. "Specialist unit" is a misleading term as it is a perfectly normal field hospital based on the normal establishment, but instead of recruiting from one specific area within the United Kingdom it recruits throughout the country. That ensures that on mobilisation, National Health Service trusts would not lose a large number of staff at any one time, which is exactly what the National Health Service is worried about. I believe that more TA field hospitals should be turned into specialist units, drawing their personnel from all over the country.
My last point concerns any future reduction in the Royal Army Medical Corps and the Territorial Army Medical Services. I should be most grateful if the Minister would confirm that there are no plans to reduce them.
In conclusion, it is very much hoped that Her Majesty's Government will table a defence debate in the near future when matters can be presented in more detail and subjects such as our defence posture in Europe and training in all three services can be examined.
Finally, as is customary on such occasions, I pay my tribute to the men and women of the Armed Forces of the Crown. They protect our liberty and freedom, are brave and courageous and are always prepared to make the supreme sacrifice. Those men and women are an outstanding example to everyone wherever they go, and we all owe then an enormous debt of gratitude.
10.8 p.m.
Lord Thomas of Swynnerton: My Lords, first, I should like to say what a pleasure it is to follow the noble Lord, Lord Vivian, who speaks with such experience and professional knowledge from a long life in the Army. If I may say so without sounding patronising, he is a good example of the kind of Peer whom this House should seek to have in future, should there be a second stage in its reforms.
Like other noble Lords, naturally I read the somewhat lacklustre paragraphs on international affairs in the gracious Speech. However, perhaps I should not complain. We do not expect to have in a document of that nature an essay such as might have been written by my noble friend Lord Dahrendorf. Basically, I agree with what was said. However, I notice that one aspect of international affairs was not mentioned. It was touched on very briefly—but only once—by the noble Lord, Lord Desai, when he pointed out that we have only one great power in international affairs at the present time. 'That is a most unusual state of affairs. Only one power is capable of intervening where it wants, with the force that it wants and when it wants. That power is the United States. This has never happened before. It is worth while
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brooding on it. When Britain was the master of the world we were nothing like as powerful as the United States is at the present time. Under the Roman empire the imperial authority certainly stretched as far as the Pillars of Hercules and to the other end of the Mediterranean, but Rome was not in any sense a global power.
This current state of affairs is one with which we have to come to terms. The curious thing about the situation is that there are certain oddities with regard to the United States' attitude to world power. First, we are frequently made aware that important decisions on foreign affairs are taken in relation to how they affect lobbies and domestic aspects of American policy. For example, it is difficult to imagine that a major initiative on international affairs could be taken in this election year without considerations which would not seem relevant to the issue in hand. I cannot imagine that the US administration could think of revising its ill-advised policy of boycott towards Cuba until the spring of the year 2001 at the earliest.
Secondly, there is the curious fact that, although America is reasonably at ease with its global position, there is not a great deal of interest in the United States in international affairs in the 1990s. All of us who visit that country come back with some strange story of the relatively small number of Congressmen who actually have passports. Thirdly, there is the fact that the United States, although happy with world power, is most unhappy at the idea of losing men in conflict. That has never happened before with a great imperial authority. Even with the technological superiority of the United States, it is a most unusual aspect of power.
Fourthly, it is most uncertain as to when and how the United States will take any action in the international sphere. A book was written on this subject by Dr Richard Haas of the Brookings Foundation. It is entitled The Reluctant Sheriff The title tells all. Dr Haas pointed out that on some occasions the United States, acting as world sheriff, might like to have, so to speak, a posse of supporters—in Europe, perhaps NATO; in the Middle East, perhaps the posse would be the United Nations. However, on other occasions, many Americans, particularly southern Senators or southern Congressmen, would prefer to act without a posse at all. For example, the French journal Le Point has recently said that in order to fight the drug problem in Colombia 5,000 American citizens are acting under the Drug Enforcement Agency. It is an action of international intervention without a posse.
Do we imagine that this state of affairs will continue indefinitely? In many respects of course it would be beneficial if it were to do so. Most noble Lords would accept—although no doubt with the exception of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins of Putney—that the United States is basically a benign power. It has a working democracy that is even more effective at the lower levels than it is at the top. It has a remarkable press and, above all, it is influenced by ourselves. For that reason it must be in our interest that that great country should be in such an astonishing position.

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However, wise men have observed that great powers do not remain in that position for ever. There must be anxiety that America's reluctance to commit troops to combat situations might adversely affect its imperial position. The lack of interest in international affairs of the American public at large must be a weakness. What could happen? For the foreseeable future it does not look as though anything is going to happen. There do not appear to be any potential successors. China or Iran would be impossible.
That brings me to the question of Europe. Of course the nation states of Europe are retired imperial countries and are not capable of becoming anything like the United States. We flitter like moths around the flame of American power, sometimes being burned and wounding ourselves but unable to affect the character of the jet. I listened with great care and attention to the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, the noble Lord, Lord Owen, and also to the noble Lord, Lord Howell, when he warned against any suggestion that we should join a large enterprise merely because it was European. However, if together we were to create something along the lines of a European defence community that could operate within NATO—I accept what the noble Lord, Lord Owen, said on this—at least for the near future, this could be a force which would lead to an alternative source of civilised power in the world. In the short term that could be a continuing source of assistance and counsel to the United States. In the long term it would be able to remind the United States that there are alternatives which could be considered on many different issues.
For that reason I believe that the section in the gracious Speech that gives further support to the ideas on European defence initiated last year at St Malo should be followed up. I agree very much with the noble Lord, Lord Vivian, when he asked for a debate in this House in the near future to discuss European defence matters with more attention than hitherto we have been able to give.
10.18 p.m.
Lord St John of Bletso: My Lords, the gracious Speech, while long in its legislative programme, was certainly short in terms of reference to international development and made no mention of the programme of Her Majesty's Government as regards Africa. However, it did mention that Her Majesty's Government would build on work,
"to strengthen protection for children",
and that they would,
"take further measures to meet their target of abolishing child poverty in 20 years".
It is in that regard that I devote my very brief remarks tonight to the plight of children in Africa and draw attention to the problems and challenges facing the African continent, predominantly in sub-Saharan Africa. Despite the successful elections in South Africa and in Nigeria bringing democracy back to that country, as well as the budding peace initiatives in the
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Democratic Republic of the Congo, Ethiopia, Eritrea and Sierra Leone, the continent remains torn by 11 wars involving 16 nations and countless rebel and splinter movements.
Although many of these wars have been largely internal in origin there has been a tendency for them to mushroom into regional conflicts. What better example than the war in the Democratic Republic of the Congo? Eight million refugees and countless more millions of internally displaced people bear witness to the awesome toll of conflict in Africa. What hope does that give for the young children in that continent affected and afflicted by poverty, malnutrition and civil war?
As a noble Lord who has spent most of his life in Africa I say this basically feeling more as an African than as an Englishman. I entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Desai, that one of the main pre-conditions for eradicating poverty will be through the provision of peace and security in many of the war-torn countries rather than through pouring more and more aid into them.
I also entirely support the call by my noble friend Lord Sandwich that Her Majesty's Government should promote greater investment in Africa. I pay tribute to the invaluable work of the NGOs and all those humanitarian agencies which have done such sterling work over the years many of whose representatives have lost their lives in the course of their work.
The country that particularly concerns me is Angola, a country which has seen little peace for almost 30 years. Despite the peace accord earlier this year, the country has now fallen back into civil war. Mr Savimbi and his UNITA forces are widely perceived as craving power and the MPLA as wanting plunder. In the absence of a commitment to peace by both sides, Angola has simply fallen off the international agenda.
In some war zones in Angola landmines are being planted faster than crops. The World Food Programme has received less than 40 per cent of what it needs and once eradicated diseases such as polio are thriving once again in Angola's inaccessible areas with the results that infant and child mortality rates are rising to appalling levels.
Sadly, the conflicts in Angola and in the Democratic Republic of the Congo had fed off each other and continue to do so. What is needed is a broader, effective regional effort. I have my concerns about the efficacy of SADC. I do not expect the Minister to make any comments about it. The matter can perhaps be raised in another short debate later in the Session.
I entirely agree and pay tribute to the remarkable and moving speech made by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Guildford who spoke of the dividends of peace in Mozambique and the admirable work of Christian Aid. With diamonds and oil in Angola, it ought to be rich but it is sapped by war.
Mozambique has little more than prawns, cashew nuts, cheap electricity and tourism, but since the end of its 20-year civil war in 1994 it has enjoyed

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unprecedented economic growth, and now, even with the return of well over 2 million war refugees, is self-sufficient in food.
The constraints on the economy in Mozambique are primarily the fact that 60 per cent of the adult population are illiterate, and the social problem that haunts most of sub-Saharan Africa—namely, the spread of AIDS. In replying to this long debate, perhaps the Minister would briefly outline what programmes Her Majesty's Government have, both to fight the spread of AIDS and to promote greater education for the less privileged in sub-Saharan Africa.
Finally, I want to pay tribute to the contribution of the BBC World Service in Africa. The World Service has played an important part in rebuilding many countries destroyed by conflict, through the provision of relevant and independent information and analysis. It is by far the most listened to international broadcaster in Africa. In several countries, it is the main radio station.
The Internet revolution has also opened up many opportunities for Africa. Page impressions to the World Service's on-line sites have grown by 125 per cent in the past year.
The recent Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in South Africa assisted in pushing Africa up the international agenda. I hope that President Thabo Mbeki's dream in the next millennium of an African renaissance will be a reality, not just a pipe-dream.
10.27 p.m.
The Earl of Dundee: My Lords, the prospect of lasting peace in Europe may now be rather more convincing than at any previous time. That prospect takes into account the end of the Cold War in 1989 and the consequences of the Kosovo campaign earlier this year. No doubt we should seek to measure and evaluate the outcome of any such peace prospect in terms of stable economic and social development within the regions and communities of European states. That is perhaps as clear a criterion of measurement as it is a desired end product.
What may be less obvious is that economic and social development levels should become the means as well as the desired ends of European stability, let alone the key ingredients and instruments for achieving lasting peace in Europe. Yet that proved to be the case between 1948 and 1989 in terms of the Cold War. The 1949 NATO Alliance could not have been formed had it not been preceded by the economic disbursement of Marshall aid in 1948.
The Cold War would not have ended as it did in the 1980s had the arms race not come to exert an unacceptable level of pressure on the economies of the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact states. Nevertheless, right up to 1989, and in spite of promising signs to the contrary, many of us still believed that Soviet communism would remain entrenched for a long time. It did not, and for that an enormous debt is owed to the forging of the North Atlantic Alliance in the first place, to the planning and development of that
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organisation, and to the balance achieved by its membership in terms of deterrence, diplomacy and economic stability. As we recall, it took much effort and persuasion to form NATO at all. In that connection, it is fitting to pay tribute to Ernest Bevin, who as Foreign Secretary was chiefly responsible for guiding the Americans towards NATO, as it is in connection with this House to pay tribute to Roger Sherfield, Derek Inchyra and Gladwyn Jebb, who as diplomats within the British Foreign Office played a significant part in forming NATO and whom we now remember with gratitude and affection.
There is a striking contrast between the successful handling of the Cold War in 1989 on the one hand and the inept handling of the former Yugoslavia during the 1990s on the other. The contrast is also paradoxical. The former, although it threatened nuclear world war, produced no major disaster in Europe while in the latter, civil war between non-nuclear armies in south-eastern Europe killed more than 250,000 people and made more than 3 million people homeless.
With hindsight, the catastrophe could have been avoided if the prescription of July 1991 of the European Union Dutch presidency had been implemented. This prescription was for two expedients: first, an immediate deployment of NATO and United Nations troops to keep the peace following the hostilities between Serbs and Croats; and, secondly, the continued deployment of the troops while the European Union presided over an orderly secession of states from the former Yugoslavia.
As we know, that proposal was rejected and the western security system remained divided over the former Yugoslavia until the intervention of the Dayton peace plan in October 1995. Many of us believe that, ironically, this division within western defence security was a product of the success of the management of the Cold War by NATO states. For 40 years, NATO's focus had been the containment of the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact states which formed its satellites. The containment of regional instability had thus not been a priority, nor even a necessity. As a result, NATO states, distributed over the European Union and including the United States, were unused to confronting regional instability in the 1990s and, regarding the former Yugoslavia, were divided over, and unsure of, the best way to do so.
Yet although division within western security prevented timely containment, western states and governments had behaved honourably and responsibly. The measure of that is the commitment of those states to peacekeeping forces and to the shared cost and burden of reconstruction. During the 1990s wars, there has also been the impressive disbursement of humanitarian aid by member states within the United Nations.
In those contexts, therefore, we can be proud of our own British contributions and, in particular, of the commitment of our own servicemen, to whom the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley, referred. Although their advice may not have been sufficiently heeded within the western security system,

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we can be grateful for the pragmatic stand adopted as Foreign Secretary by my noble friend Lord Hurd; and as successive special envoys and chairmen of the former Yugoslavia peace initiative for the contributions of my noble friend Lord Carrington and of the noble Lord, Lord Owen, whose speech we heard with great interest today.
So the first theme is that European security must depend upon agreed methods for pre-empting and combating regional instability at the outset before it develops and takes hold. It must also depend upon economic and social development, not just as the fruits and rewards of peace, but as the best means of engendering stability in the first place.
That leads to the current stability pact for south-east Europe and to my second theme, which is the scope for this pact to facilitate, in that area, real and effective levels of economic and social development. Clearly, one key problem at the moment is the continuing regime of President Milosevic in Serbia. As soon as this regime may change, economic opportunities for all neighbouring states can become far better. In order to encourage a change of regime, the authors of the stability pact are surely right to begin by excluding President Milosevic.
Nevertheless, there is the option of offering to the Serbian people and the political opposition a separate Serbian stability pact. This concept is already keenly supported by the Serbian opposition, by the much respected Serbian Orthodox Church and by many international observers. Does the Minister agree that without further pressure, such as through a package of incentives and disincentives, the current Serbian administration is unlikely to change, that its continuation will undermine the workings of the stability pact and therefore that a separate stability pact with strict conditions attached, now offered to Serbia, could assist a great deal in bringing about a change of regime? Does she also agree that the stability pact should include conditions to facilitate in Bosnia and elsewhere the revision of economies whose current practices and restrictions will otherwise continue to hold back social and economic development?
My third theme is the potential impact of the steady regeneration of the former Yugoslavia and the neighbouring area upon the rest of Europe. One potential effect is upon the future direction of the European Union itself. Quite apart from the policy option of the EU further assisting established European Union members, that of widening its role to include logical and suitable candidates appears misplaced if such a move fails to resolve or, worse still, ignores altogether the plight of south east Europe.
Another potential impact is upon an improved working relationship between the European Union, the United States and Russia, and hence upon the developing scope for co-operation, trust and combined containment by those powers of instability in all of the regions, including eastern Europe to which a number of noble Lords have drawn attention today. Not least is the potential impact that successful implementations within the stability pact can have
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upon pragmatic partnerships of all kinds to address social and economic development on different scales. On the one hand, such partnerships may include governments, the World Bank, the Council of Europe, the OSCE and a number of other useful institutions whose general remit is social and economic development. Equally, they should include NGOs, voluntary and charitable bodies to which the noble Lord, Lord Dahrendorf referred, which may often be working on very small yet extremely effective scales.
It is the remit of the UK All-Party Parliamentary Group for Social Development in Europe, of which I am current chairman, to encourage the growth of partnerships to achieve within European regions and communities on a variety of scales a measure of social development. It is also the remit of the group to encourage the parliamentarians of the 41 Council of Europe states to embrace this focus and thus to advocate within their own parliaments the added value of European social development from all kinds of partnerships which may include—but neither those partnerships nor their donors should be confined to—large-scale official or executive institutions.
Within the stability pact there is already agreement to the UK's proposal for an investment compact. Can the Minister confirm that the Government will also take a lead in promoting a wide range of partnerships to advance economic and social development as a priority in stability pact areas, as it may also become relevant elsewhere in Europe?
It is vital that within the stability pact over the next few years there is a clear-headed and committed resolve by the United Kingdom and other European states. If the commitment is a genuine one the welcome initiative of the recent German presidency can succeed. If it should begin to do so such results will give new confidence that the powers and institutions of Europe can be trusted to protect its regions and communities and that at least in Europe peace and stability can become a guaranteed human right for all.
10.38 p.m.
Lord Gilbert: My Lords, I hope that your Lordships will be kind to me today. I rise to my feet in your Lordships' House to make a maiden speech of a certain kind. This is the first time in 30 years in Westminster that I have found myself in the delightful position of being a government Back-Bencher. I have known 18 years on the Back Benches, some more as an Opposition Back-Bencher with all the joys that that entails, and about eight years subject to the constraints of the Front Bench. I am not quite sure how naughty I dare be, so I shall feel my way.
One of the elements of the gracious Speech that caught my attention and most cheered me up was the suggestion that Her Majesty's Government would work towards reform of the United Nations. I think that they are taking on a pretty mighty task, but I wish them God speed.
I hope that the Government realise that the most important aspect to change in the United Nations is not so much its institutions as attitudes. If one can

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Change the attitudes, one does not have to worry too much about the structure. If one cannot change the attitudes, whatever one does to the structure will not help very much.
I take as my text tonight four examples of the kind of behaviour that we find at the United Nations which I find extremely destructive and that we encountered in particular at the time of Kosovo. The first is what I call the determined head-in-the-sand principle which we still see with respect to Kosovo; namely, the suggestion that Kosovo is and will remain, because it has been until now, a part of the Republic of Yugoslavia. That attitude, frankly, defeats me. I cannot see a single element of sovereignty that is exercised by Belgrade over Kosovo. In Kosovo, people do not use Yugoslav postage stamps. They do not pay taxes to Belgrade. They do not have courts in Kosovo which will appeal to higher courts in Serbia. They will not send their young men to be conscripted into a Yugoslav army. I shall be grateful if my noble friend who will reply to the debate can identify for me a single aspect of sovereignty which Yugoslavia now manages to exercise in the province of Kosovo.
The second aspect of behaviour at the United Nations which I find distasteful—it will be familiar to all noble Lords—is what I call voting blackmail. We saw that particularly during Kosovo when the People's Republic of China saw fit to exercise its vote in the Security Council with respect to matters in Kosovo purely on the basis of a petulant dislike of something that the United States was doing currently with respect to Taiwan. It had absolutely nothing to do with the merits or demerits of the United States' position on Kosovo. If Her Majesty's Government are able to lance the boil of voting blackmail in the United Nations, I am sure all noble Lords will be very pleased.
A third aspect of United Nations' behaviour which I hope Her Majesty's Government will seek to influence is what I call an extraordinary ability to continue to be bound by outdated shibboleths which the United Nations has set itself. We are told that there is no way that the boundaries of Yugoslavia can be changed. But we all know that that is rubbish. They have been changed several times in the past decade. If one could not change the boundaries of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia how, pray, did Slovenia emerge? How, pray, did Croatia emerge? How did Bosnia and Herzegovina emerge? What is so different between those provinces and Kosovo? I shall be grateful if my noble friend can explain that to me when she winds up the debate today. Good heavens, my Lords, we have just seen the boundaries of Timor change; and there have been many other such cases since the war, but the United Nations seems set on the principle that boundaries may not be changed.
Fourthly, the United Nations has developed the habit of giving grandiose guarantees which it is totally incapable of implementing, largely because of lack of will. A report, instigated by the United Nations, has just been published, as noble Lords will know, with admirable candour and honesty, castigating the United Nations for its performance over Srebrenica. I endorse totally everything that I have read so far in
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press reports. I confess that I have not had time to read the report itself. But it is exactly the same guarantee that the United Nations recently gave in Kosovo. They said to the Serbs, "Come back into Kosovo. We are there. We will see that you are protected", without having the slightest ability to do so. I hope that the Government will not be party to such histrionic guarantees which can produce disasters.
There are other lessons to be learnt from Kosovo. If I may tease your Lordships, I may keep some of my more indiscreet views for another audience, but one which I wish to proclaim—and I have hinted at it from the Dispatch Box—is my unhappiness at the policy of graduated increments of force. I believe that we made a major strategic mistake in failing to use the maximum necessary force right at the beginning of the campaign, and that force was available to us. I am clear that the suffering of the poor Kosovar people and of others in that area would have been greatly diminished had we from the beginning used the maximum necessary force. My views are well known inside the Ministry of Defence and I hinted at them at the Dispatch Box. They are similar to those of the American Air Force General, General Short, who has been quoted picturesquely in this respect.
I want to make a couple of further comments about Kosovo. It was a remarkable campaign. We kept the alliance together, which was, I hope, an admirable precedent for the future. But it was an extraordinary campaign. I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Watson, is not in his place because I want to refer to and endorse one or two of his remarks. The campaign was remarkable because we suffered no casualties. The noble Lord indicated how squeamish the Americans were at the prospect of accepting casualties, but the most remarkable aspect of the campaign is how squeamish we were about inflicting casualties. It is a remarkable precedent for warfare in the future. I am tempted to say that I am slightly alarmed at the possibility that the general public may believe that all wars in which we become engaged will be casualty free. We may have a serious reaction when we find ourselves in conflicts in which, unfortunately, that cannot be the case.
However, an issue which particularly delighted me about the Kosovo conflict was the increasing use of unmanned aerial vehicles. I see that the noble Lord, Lord Watson, who made a brilliant maiden speech, is now in his place. The use of such vehicles means that you can do great things; you have military capability without putting your brave young men and women at risk. I hope that the Ministry of Defence will continue to prosecute its research into the use of unmanned aerial vehicles, not only in the reconnaissance and information gathering mode, but also—and I know that there are ongoing studies—in air-to-surface power projection and in the use of air-to-air warfare, where we have an opportunity to take the lead.
I am absolutely convinced that that is the way of the future when we are considering using air-to-air weapons which will have a range—and it is beyond visual range—of 100 kilometres or more. I see very little reason why pilots' lives should be placed seriously

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at risk in air-to-air combat in the years ahead. That is not an immediate prospect but it is one which we can foresee in the next decade or so.
I must not detain your Lordships long at this time of night, but I wish to touch on the issue of non-lethal weapons. I am glad to say that they were extremely effective in Kosovo, particularly in the way in which they were used against transformers and power distribution systems in the outskirts of Belgrade. I am not clear as to why our American friends were so hesitant to use some of their non-lethal capacity with respect to waging information warfare. I should be grateful for any further enlightenment that my noble friend can offer in relation to that.
Finally, I wish to mention one of my pet hobbyhorses—our strategic airlift capability. I have a couple of questions for my noble friend Lady Symons, who succeeded me as the Minister of State for Defence Procurement and made a brilliant speech in opening the debate today. Are we still running a competition in respect of both our short-term and long-term requirements for strategic air transport? Secondly, is the American C-17 aircraft, as I hope it is, still a candidate for both those requirements?
10.52 p.m.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Gilbert, mentioned resistance to changing boundaries. He was really talking about resistance to the break up of states. We need to be rather ambivalent about accepting the increasing fragmentation of the global order.
I spent three days in Slovenia last week at a conference on the enlargement of the European Union. I came away with the strong impression that Slovenia is too small to cope with the full obligations of European Union membership. With 2 million people, it is smaller than Sicily. If it puts all its effort into coping with the full obligations of taking part in European integration, its universities will empty and its civil service will be incompetent.
That is not the smallest state. Those noble Lords who have enjoyed the Franz Lehar opera "The Merry Widow" will remember the extended skit on the idea of an independent Montenegro. We are now most likely to have again an independent Montenegro.
As the European Union expands, we are committed to including Malta which has a slightly smaller population than that of Bradford: 371,000. That raises major questions as to how we shall manage an enlarged European Union. If one looks at East Timor and the future of Indonesia, it would be extremely easy for Indonesia to split up into 20 or 25 independent statelets. After all, Indonesia is a Javan empire taking over from the Dutch empire. But I am not sure that an Indonesia split up into 20 or 25 statelets would necessarily contribute much to the peaceful and stable order of the world.
I shall try to be as brief as possible because it is extremely late. The suggestion made by the right reverend Prelates that debates like this should ideally
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be time limited is one which we need to take seriously. In this interim House, we have a large number of active and intelligent Members who have a great deal that is useful to say. The only way that we can be fair to each other is to accept that we probably need to discipline ourselves rather more tightly than we have done in the past.
I was glad that the noble Lord, Lord St John of Bletso, talked about the BBC World Service as I felt that there had been too little said about Britain's civilian contribution to the strengthening of global society and global order. The BBC World Service is extremely important. Every time I am abroad and am forced to watch CNN and various other international news, I recognise the quality of BBC world television and the civilised and cultural values that we can contribute. It is worth paying for and it is worth the British Government making it quite clear that that is part of their foreign policy obligations.
The same applies to the British Council, with its English language teaching and its educational exchange. I declare an interest as a university teacher. Britain's higher education sector has a role to play in contributing to the strengthening of global civil society. We can provide assistance in the development of universities and higher education institutions throughout the developing world, and we can help to educate people from other countries on a broader view of global society.
I welcome, therefore, the Foreign Office's recent announcement that Chevening scholarships, a particularly valuable form of educational exchange, are to be expanded. Educational exchanges of all sorts contribute to better understanding among peoples. I know a little about the largest educational exchange we have had with Argentina since the Falklands war because it concerned the London Schools Symphony Orchestra, of which my son happened to be a member. The orchestra spent two weeks in Argentina last summer, during which the British embassy was extremely helpful. The orchestra played with the Academy of Buenos Aires, also a training orchestra, in the Teatro Colon. It was a great Anglo-Argentine occasion. That is part of the way in which we help to build better understanding among different countries.
I regret that the immensely valuable effort of the know-how fund was transferred away from the Foreign Office to the Department for International Development. After the break-up of the socialist empire, that was another area in which we were able to contribute to better training for the successor regimes. I also regret that our Government were so slow in entering into twinning arrangements with government administrations from the countries of eastern Europe. I am glad to see that at last we are beginning to catch up.
I welcome the emphasis on defence diplomacy within this Government. Part of NATO's new role is to persuade the armed services of those former socialist states that they have a different role in a post-socialist world. One of NATO's greatest successes in

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the 1980s was to retrain the Spanish army to understand that its role was not to attack the Spanish but to contribute to international order outside Spain.
Two weeks ago I met some of the British military attaches who are working with the Romanian, Polish and other armed forces in eastern Europe, helping them to understand the importance of civil/military relations and the extent to which in a democratic society armed forces have a different role.
A number of British agencies are also engaged in the retraining of police, judges and ministries of the interior. Defence diplomacy outside Europe is now also an important part of the way in which Britain can contribute to a more stable world. The noble Lord, Lord Desai, spoke about the importance of helping to reconstruct weak states as a necessary preliminary to the provision of worthwhile economic assistance which would be a necessary basis for civil society. Clearly that is something that the British are good at and it is something that we should emphasise.
The noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, was doubtful about humanitarian intervention. I recognise our limitations, but it seems that that is something we should continue to do with caution. On the imperialism of ideas, we have some confidence that open societies and open economies serve human welfare and noble peace best. It is not entirely a novel concept. I seem to recall learning as a boy that in the 19th century the Royal Navy suppressed the slave trade and international piracy. That is imperialism of ideas perhaps—it is certainly humanitarian intervention—but not entirely novel.
I must say in passing that the continued push for armament exports does not fit in with this emphasis. It is not a matter to be proud of that we can remain among the world's three largest arms exporters. My party therefore regretted the want of a proposal in the Queen's Speech for tougher strategic arms exports. We have, as the Government will know, proposed a strategic arms export Bill.
Conservatives argue that the answer to the emergence of a global network society, as the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, remarked, is to reconstruct and strengthen the nation state. Liberals argue that the answer to the rapid emergence of a global economy with global communications networks is to promote closer international co-operation and to reconstruct and strengthen global institutions.
The gracious Speech talks about modernising the UN. In my opinion—and here I agree strongly with my noble friend Lord Beaumont of Whitley—it is more urgent to re-shape global economic institutions. The World Trade Organisation has now been designated a semi-legal body with a semi-legal dispute settlement process, but of course it is dealing with semi-political issues and it needs to address the question of which principles it is promoting.
The IMF and the World Bank have moved some distance away from the old Washington consensus of free trade and open financial markets, above all, in the wake of the Asian financial crisis. However, I am not
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sure that what is now called the "post-Washington consensus" takes enough on board the need to maintain some discipline over international capital movement and the need to think about a sustainable world economy. It is possible for markets to be too open and too free of regulation. I agree with the right reverend Bishop of Birmingham that a less than equal world economy, less skewed to the advantage of the rich world and to the disadvantage of the poor world, is something that we have to emphasise more, with the British Government working with our European partners through global institutions.
I also agree that we need a stronger global legal framework through the ratification of the international criminal court. This is not entirely an ethical approach. It is, after all, in our self-interest to prevent the collapse of states into disorder or the emergence of tyrannical or terrorist regimes. The consequences of such regimes emerge on our shores in the flows of refugees. I often attempt to discover how it is that we now have some 40,000 Somalis in London who were not here 10 years ago. They have come, legally and illegally, because of the collapse of the Somali state.
The gracious Speech also touched on the question of Britain's dependent territories. I simply say in passing that Britain's dependent territories, in Europe as well as out of Europe, should be of concern in the sensitive issue of the prevention of harmful tax competition, as a recent OECD report puts it, or international tax evasion, as one has more bluntly to put it. It is very odd that the current position of Her Majesty's Government is that the Channel Islands should be allowed to opt out of the European Union for almost all those things which Gibraltar is allowed to opt in for and that those things which Gibraltar is allowed to opt out of are precisely those which the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man are allowed to opt in for. I suspect that that is not a sustainable position. I do not fully understand the rationale for this. The Chief Executive of Jersey explained to me the other week that Jersey has been a "low tax area since 1204", but I was not quite sure that necessarily justified why Jersey should go on being a low tax area in 2001.
The gracious Speech touches on EU enlargement and a common security policy. The scale of enlargement, taking on another 12 or 13 states immediately and, with the Balkan security pact, potentially another three or four weak states, clearly means that the European Union will have to change. It is an immensely important strategic issue, and I regret that Her Majesty's Government have not yet found the political imagination and the rhetoric to explain to the British public and to some of our more benighted partners that this ought to be one of the main priorities for any common fund and security policy. The hesitation of the Labour Government to set out the positive case for closer European co-operation is one which, as the Government know, my party continues to regret.
I regret also that the Government have not made the case more strongly for the single currency. I listened with puzzlement to the noble Lord, Lord

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Moran, talking about how all other governments were committed to a European superstate. That is not what I hear when I go to Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Ireland or Portugal. But I note that the Danes and the Swedes both have governments that say now is the time for them to join the single currency; I note that the Greek Government are now determined to join the single currency, so perhaps within three or four years we will again be the one odd state out.
On common foreign and security policy, my party supports a stronger European pattern of defence co-operation, though regrets that the Labour Government have not moved on it. We therefore welcomed the St Malo initiative and urge the Government to move further ahead.
Again, we regret the Government's failure to put their policy across. I was glad to be able to read exactly what happened at Monday's joint meeting of foreign and defence Ministers. It was a good report in Le Monde yesterday, but it seems to me that the British Government failed to brief our press as fully as the French Government briefed theirs. Perhaps they should be a little more brave and admit that the Dutch-British Marine Amphibious Force is as useful a symbol of close European co-operation as Eurocorps, which the French Government wish always to present.
I remember the origins of the Franco-British defence dialogue. It was extremely secretive. I learnt about it by accident at a meeting in Paris when a senior French official mentioned how well it was going. At the time the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in Britain was Malcolm Rifkind, the Secretary of State for Defence was Michael Portillo. I came back to London and asked friends in the Foreign Office whether such a thing was under way, and they said, "Yes. It is going very well, but whatever you do, do not tell Sir Nicholas Bonsor". At the time Sir Nicholas was the chairman of the Commons Defence Committee. And to sense that the Conservative Government were pursuing a policy which they were desperate their Back-Benchers did not discover was interesting.
NATO has to adapt. I am glad to see in the gracious Speech the phrase that we need to "adapt" the alliance. NATO, after all, has lost an enemy, but has not yet found a role. The advantages of a stronger European pillar were first set out by President Kennedy in his speech on 4th July 1962. I agree strongly with the noble Lord, Lord Desai, and my noble friend Lord Thomas of Swynnerton in relation to the need for partnership with the United States; not leaving the United States to be the lonely superpower. I was struck by an excellent article in the most recent issue of Foreign Affairs by a distinguished American scholar, Robert Tucker, on the dangers of the United States remaining on its own as the dominant power in the world; the dangers of arrogance of power; the dangers of forgetting about its international responsibilities. He argued indeed the advantages of encouraging some sort of countervailing power.
Therefore I agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Owen, said in relation to the European Union; that is, that we should not uncritically accept everything that
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is suggested by Brussels, but critically support it. And I wish to apply the same to Washington. We should not be an adoring disciple of everything the United States proposes; rather, we should be a critical friend.
A good foreign policy has to rest on as clear a sense of national identity and national history as its foundations. I watched, last weekend, the Albert Hall and Cenotaph Remembrance Sunday celebrations. I wondered what my son, for whom Waterloo and Normandy are roughly as far away psychologically, thought about these matters, and what it is that we wish to pass on to each new generation in terms of our preferred memories. What I saw in those ceremonies was overwhelmingly white, overwhelmingly English—an image of ourselves standing alone. I regret that. I suggest that the Government need to think through rather more carefully now how remembrance of what we have done in the past has to be reshaped as the basis for a different foreign policy. There was no mention of the Polish or Czech pilots who made such a vital difference to the Battle of Britain or to those Polish divisions which fought in the British Army in the Second World War. I remember them well because every time I accompany my wife to visit my father-in-law's grave in Bradford I see hundreds of Polish graves, many of them with pictures of military men on them—people who ended up in Britain.
When I go to Prague I am proud to note that the state secretary of the Czech foreign ministry was a lieutenant in the Czech brigade in the British Army during the Second World War. These are assets which we can still use. I was also sorry not to see more reference to the West India Regiment or to the Indian Army, which made such a major contribution to Britain in the previous world war. Perhaps we would neglect our relations with India rather less, and perhaps we might even find it easier to recruit ethnic minorities into the British Army if we made more of that element of our rich and diverse past. It is the rediscovery of Britain's European and global past which is the necessary and best foundation for an intelligent British foreign policy rooted in European co-operation and sharing responsibilities to the world beyond.
11.11 p.m.
Lord Moynihan: My Lords, I begin by congratulating the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Guildford on his incisive maiden speech. It was concise and had great clarity. It was sympathetic and showed great insight into the events he experienced in Mozambique. It was a fine maiden speech. The insights on Europe given by the noble Lord, Lord Watson, in his maiden speech were invaluable. I am sure that we shall hear much more from him in the future. They were both excellent maiden speeches worthy of wider audience.
We were fortunate to have two further "maiden speeches" somewhat unexpectedly this evening. The "maiden speech" of the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley, who spoke for the first time in his capacity as a spokesman for the Green Party, in my view admirably covered five different portfolios this

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evening. I look forward to a further five on Monday and a further five on Tuesday. But perhaps of equal note was the remarkable "maiden speech" from the Back Benches of the noble Lord, Lord Gilbert. I must say that after such a powerful and incisive speech we look forward to studying line by line the questions and, more importantly, the answers that the Government will produce to his absolutely apposite remarks this evening. I can offer only friendly advice to the Government on this occasion; namely, I think that it would be much easier to have the noble Lord "inside the tent" rather than outside. I advise the Government to give him back a job as soon as they can!
Over the past year your Lordships will have noticed that we have witnessed scenes of optimism as life and hope have been breathed back into the Middle East peace process. Peace treaties have been signed in the first tentative steps to end some of the most protracted and difficult conflicts in the world in Sierra Leone and in the Democratic Republic of Congo. Nigeria was welcomed back to the Commonwealth after its people chose their first elected president for over 15 years in February of this year.
However, as we have heard this evening, too often events in the past year have caused us to remember that even if the United Kingdom and western Europe are enjoying a prolonged peace, the world is not a safe place for millions of men, women and children. In this year alone conflict and suffering have left their mark in Kosovo, in Iraq, in the Sudan—as noted in particular by my noble friend Lady Cox—in Kashmir, in East Timor and, most topically, in Chechnya. On the brink of the new millennium it is legitimate to pose the question: what will the next century bring in terms of foreign policy challenges; how can we best equip ourselves to rise to those challenges; and what are they? I mention the "something must he done" challenge referred to my noble friend Lord Blaker. The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Bramall, spoke of a need to respond to an increasing challenge of government being involved in unplanned and unexpected commitments.
In a world where globalisation means that our economies and societies are integrating faster and on more levels than ever before, as clearly stated by my noble friend Lord Howell of Guildford, crises such as natural disasters, communal violence or economic failures have a ripple effect. They are felt at great distances and responses to them can no longer be purely localised.
So let me turn to the first in this context, which was admirably covered by the noble Lord, Lord Hylton. The noble Lord focused on Chechnya almost exclusively. The current conflict in Chechnya is the manifestation of two of the greatest scourges of the late 20th century—terrorism and ethnic conflict. If it is allowed to continue unchecked, it threatens disastrous consequences for both the victims and the aggressors. There is no victory to be gained by this course of action in Chechnya; only grief and sorrow and the potential that Russia's progress towards developing a civil society based on democracy and the rule of law will be undermined.
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We have no independently verifiable reports of what is really happening but, from the information that we have and given the precedent of the disastrous 1994–96 war, it seems certain that Russia's military offensive is disproportionate to its stated aim of a war on terrorists and armed groups in the republic. As the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, said, in horrifying scenes reminiscent of the outpouring of refugees in Kosovo which threatened such profound destabilisation, with the border finally unsealed, refugees are said to be streaming into the neighbouring republic of Ingushetia at the rate of 4,000 a day. They have braved freezing temperatures and arrive, exhausted and cold, to face grim refugee camps, where they are at risk from malnutrition and epidemics. They come bearing harrowing accounts of indiscriminate brutality against Chechen civilians by Russian forces.
Can the Minister confirm whether the OSCE considers Chechnya to be Moscow's internal problem? Can she make a clear statement on whether the Government consider this to be an internal Russian problem? This is a point of critical importance, as any action taken by the Government, together with our international partners, will be predicated on this issue, particularly in view of the proposed clause in the OSCE's new charter stating that if a member state violates human rights it is not a purely internal matter. Does the Minister agree with the United States administration, which has said that Russia's military tactics are not in keeping with the Geneva Convention?
In the words of the US Secretary of State, what is happening in Chechnya is "ominous and deplorable". Those words are all too familiar. It is for this reason that in recent days there has been much attention drawn to the parallels in Kosovo. But in the case of Chechnya, Britain has been accused of standing on the sidelines and doing nothing. I am aware that the Foreign Secretary has spoken to Russian Foreign Minister Ivanov, but this hardly compares to the Foreign Secretary's response to the crisis in East Timor, when he cut short his visit to Japan to attend an emergency meeting in Auckland with other Foreign Ministers to establish an international consensus for action.
Where is the international consensus for action on Chechnya? Today I seek a clear statement from the Minister on the Government's policy towards the crisis in Chechnya and on the ways in which the Government intend to seek a peaceful solution in the interests of Russia and of the wider region.
From these Benches we understand that there are limits to similarities between the situation in Kosovo and the situation in Chechnya. Kosovo was a crisis which took place on the very back-door step of NATO and Europe and represented real instability and insecurity within our region. But if the Government are prepared to justify the NATO action in Kosovo on humanitarian grounds, then the Government—particularly a government who claim an ethical dimension to their foreign policy—must be able to

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explain, coherently and intelligently, why hundreds of thousands of refugees in Chechnya require a different response to refugees in Kosovo.
As noted by the noble Lord, Lord Owen, there are no easy solutions or quick fixes to this crisis or, indeed, to any other of the foreign affairs issues which we have debated this evening. However, the geopolitical and diplomatic hurdles thrown up by the situation in Chechnya should not be underestimated. But for a Government who have an ethical dimension to their foreign policy and whose Foreign Secretary has been keen to emphasise the lead he has taken in Kosovo and in East Timor, those hurdles do not relieve the Government of the responsibility to set out the role they are prepared to undertake to assist in healing the wounds of hundreds of thousands of those associated with the problem of Chechnya—wounds which run all the way from Bosnia to Moscow.
Several noble Lords have raised the issue of developments in Kosovo. I look forward to the Minister's Williamson-style pithy answers to the questions that have been posed concerning that troubled province. From these Benches we supported the Government in their decision to take military action with our NATO allies against Serbia. Nothing has ever divided us across the Chamber on that principle. However, the foreign policy question today is: what of Kosovo today? Kosovo's long-term status is still in question and its economy and infrastructure remain devastated. Five months after the end of the NATO bombing campaign, there is still a high level of ethnic violence and rivalry across the province. Crime is rife and peace is being maintained only very tenuously by the presence of the international peacekeeping force KFOR.
The current situation in Kosovo highlights the critical importance of the work of the UN mission, UNMIK, in the rebuilding of civil society in the province. The fragile seeds of peace and democracy will never take root and grow on the barren soil of chaos and confusion, fertilised only by hatred and by distrust. Unless an interim civil administration is established, democratic institutions are built, the economy of Kosovo is reconstructed, a legal and judicial framework is established and the cycle of ethnically-related violence is broken once and for all, the international community will never succeed in its common goal of a multi-ethnic, stable, peaceful Kosovo enjoying substantial autonomy and meaningful self-administration.
Many noble Lords will have been concerned to read press reports this week that UNMIK is mired in bureaucracy and incompetence, that almost all its major projects are far behind schedule and that respect for the UN has plummeted in the province. The Minister will be aware that the UN representative in Kosovo, Bernard Kouchner, answers those accusations by saying that, although promises and pledges of funds are plentiful, UNMIK simply does not have enough hard cash to do its job. Is the Minister in a position to say whether that is true, and can she tell the House when the 1 billion dollars pledged at
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yesterday's—yes, yesterday's—very belated Kosovo donors' conference will arrive in view of the need for a rapid infusion of money?
We are all agreed that the evil ethnic cleansing that took place in Kosovo, which caused the NATO operation against Serbia earlier this year, was an assault on the universal values of respect for human rights and dignity. But after winning the war in Kosovo, we must not lose the peace. The ultimate test of the success or failure of our military intervention in Kosovo will be the way in which we implement the peace we have imposed and the resources which we are prepared to commit for that purpose.
No one can underestimate the wider implications of failing to win the peace, the importance of Montenegro and the need to take steps to protect the integrity and security of the Montenegrin population, in view of the proposed referendum on secession and the adoption of the German mark as an official currency on 2nd November, which have led to menacing threats from Belgrade.
Those issues have been debated this evening, not least in the context of our defence policy. Many of your Lordships have raised questions on military intervention in general. When the Minister opened the debate, she said that Britain needs to pull more weight. To summarise the sentiments of many of your Lordships, the Minister would receive the following response: Britain needs to pull more weight; what with? Our Armed Forces are already seriously overstretched. That has been a common theme from all sides of the House and one which must be addressed in the different global environment—
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, perhaps I may put the record straight. I did not say that Britain needed to pull more weight; I said that Europe needed to pull more weight.
Lord Moynihan: My Lords, I am delighted to hear the Minister say that she now sees a significant distinction between Europe and Britain. Is she saying to the House that Britain is pulling sufficient weight; and would she like to name the countries in Europe which are not paying their way in terms of defence policy?
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I do not intend to go over the whole of the speech that I made earlier today. If the noble Lord cares to read it properly and listens perhaps a little more carefully in future, he will see that I was making very specific points about Europe's armed forces needing to be restructured, needing to be able to meet the requirements of the next century and needing to be better deployable. That is what I said. When the noble Lord reads it, I am sure he will understand the argument better.
Lord Moynihan: My Lords, I did not actually hear the answer to my question about naming one country in Europe which the Minister believes should be

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pulling more weight on the defence front. I shall happily give way if the noble Baroness wishes to intervene.
In the event that we are not to hear of a single country, I shall move on to a point on which there was widespread agreement around the Chamber. I refer to the financing of our defence capability in a fast-evolving world. We did not have a clear and decisive answer from the Minister in her opening remarks. Perhaps the Government will respond tonight and recognise the collective wisdom and experience around the Chamber. The points that were made about our Armed Forces being heavily overstretched must be addressed if the Armed Forces are to continue to undertake the functions which the Government have set out and which the Government have supported. Therein lies the heart of the argument which came from the Cross Benches, which came from my own Benches and which indeed came from the Minister's Benches. That is the issue to which we have not yet had a reply.
I look forward with great interest to the Minister's summing up because it is crucial to ensure that the outstanding work being done by our Armed Forces is properly and adequately financed. But it is not just the financing of our Armed Forces that is important. It is recognition by the Government that when it comes to military intervention in the 21st century, as we have seen over the past year in cases such as Kosovo and Iraq, the more frequent use of military force under Chapter 7 of the UN security charter will increasingly pose a threat to Security Council unanimity and the consensus-based nature of UN politics. That point was raised on a number of occasions during the debate. It is essential that we are able to agree a prescription with our partners for the breaking of the deadlock that has increasingly paralysed the UN Security Council when it is called upon to assert international authority. Otherwise, that authority will be undermined.
Today's geopolitical environment, in which intrastate conflicts increasingly pose as much of a threat to international stability as interstate conflicts, has seen the United Nations more actively engaged in peacekeeping roles in its very recent history than in the whole of its previous history put together. How will the Government use their influence to reform the United Nations and bring it into a world which realistically can address the points that I have just made? Do they believe that they have a solution—a set of programmes or action points—that they will now implement in order to achieve the grandiose words of great influence that they intend to have in terms of UN reform? Again, I look forward with great interest to the Minister's response on that point.
In conclusion, perhaps I may simply focus momentarily on the outstanding speech of the noble Lord, Lord Dahrendorf. The noble Lord rightly pointed out—I hope I quote him accurately but I shall give way if I do not—that human rights need champions, just as good government needs effective opposition capable of questioning the Government on how they use the powers at their disposal. The question
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of their ethical foreign policy is at the centre of this issue. In January this year, the then Foreign Office Minister, Tony Lloyd, said:
"of course it is right and proper that no distinction should be made between abuses of human rights, whether perpetrated by large or small nations".
Yet 10 months later the Foreign Office Minister Keith Vaz said in another place that on the question of China one must consider such matters on a case-by-case basis. I listened carefully to the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Dahrendorf, and I am not sure whether it is possible to have a case-by-case approach to an ethical foreign policy. Either such a policy is ethical or it is not.
Even under this Government and the modern code of ethics by which we live, that code should remain a constant in the shifting sands of foreign affairs. National interest may indeed demand that policies change, but the ethical dimension does not. This is the Government of ethical inconsistency: inconsistency in their approach to the human rights record of Burma and China, where in the former the regime cannot be integrated into the world until its government changes its ways, while in the latter the president is invited on a state visit to this country with all pomp and ceremony. The Government are inconsistent in their approach to government-funded trade missions which are banned to Burma but not to other human rights offenders like China and Indonesia. The Government are inconsistent in their approach to UN resolutions criticising human rights. The Government are inconsistent in their approach to foreign generals accused of genocide. While the Rwandan Lieutenant-Colonel Tharcisse Muvinyi has been given temporary asylum, the Chilean General Pinochet awaits an extradition decision.
The Government are inconsistent in their approach to Pakistan which has been ejected from the councils of the Commonwealth after a bloodless coup without protest from the Pakistani people, while Russia tramples over the human rights of many of its own citizens in Chechnya. I shall give way.
Lord Avebury: My Lords, has the noble Lord seen a news item this week which states that the Government have agreed to a request for the extradition of Mr Muvinyi to face trial at Arusha?
Lord Moynihan: My Lords, I am delighted to learn that, and I am grateful to the noble Lord. However, the point remains that until that decision was made a very glaring inconsistency in the Government's foreign policy was evident for all to see.
The Government Front Bench may laugh, but why did they not take action before now? They are amused at the debate on inconsistency, but there would have been a glaring inconsistency here had we had this debate a week ago.
Lord Avebury: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord. I have been involved in the case of Mr Muvinyi and I can give the noble Lord the answer he seeks. We did not

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have a request from the Arusha tribunal for his extradition and therefore we could not act until that request was received.
Lord Moynihan: My Lords, as always I am deeply grateful to the noble Lord for offering his background expertise on this issue. It is one of the few on which we have disagreed on the matter of inconsistency, but I shall be happy to give way to the noble Lord if he feels that there are any other examples I have given to your Lordships' House that were not correct. However, I do not think that the noble Lord will need to do that. I simply make the point that if there is going to be an ethical foreign policy, it must be recognised that so far there has been a huge discrepancy on the part of this Government between their words and their actions. There is a large gap between their rhetoric and the reality.
The policy of principled and purposeful engagement with China, while fully and firmly supporting human rights and democracy reform, is a sensible one for this country. It is crucial to remember that engagement is not endorsement. In no way does it relieve Britain of its responsibility to take a firm and candid stance on matters of human rights. Yet what greater endorsement could the British Government have given to China than its failure to co-sponsor the annual motion at the UN Human Rights Commission criticising China's human rights record for the second year running and its conduct during President Jiang Zemin's recent state visit?
I conclude with one example. As a result of a Written Answer to a Parliamentary Question I put to the Minister I learnt that the Prime Minister failed to raise a single individual human rights case during President Jiang's state visit. The Prime Minister did not even raise the case of Mr Xu Wenli, the respected campaigner for democracy who was detained during the Prime Minister's visit to China in October 1998 and released the day after representations were made to the authorities by the British ambassador. He has since been sentenced to 13 years in gaol. When the president made his recent state visit to this country, despite the previous intervention by the Prime Minister during his visit to China, the name of Mr Xu Wenli was not raised.
I have given way a number of times and I have therefore exceeded the amount of time I would have liked to have taken up this evening. Suffice it to say that we on this Front Bench believe that there are many other issues which are of vital importance. We look forward to debating in detail the European Union intergovernmental conference. We also look forward to having clarification from the Minister where there appears to be a major discrepancy—very relevant to your Lordships' House—between the Prime Minister and the Foreign Office Minister, Mr Keith Vaz, as to whether the Government's Green Paper will be published in the run-up to the conference and whether it will contain their negotiating position. There have been differing answers to that. I am aware that the Minister has been helpful to your Lordships' House on
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every occasion. I wonder whether she can confirm tonight that the paper will set out clearly the Government's negotiating position.
We have worked closely and in harmony with the Government on many issues. I was going to give many examples where we praise them for taking initiatives. I understand that we are to have a full day's debate on foreign affairs in January. I hope that that can be confirmed through the usual channels. If it is, we shall need to examine on that occasion the very important issues of Pakistan and India and look at Europe in greater detail, Iraq and many of the other issues which have been raised. I would not wish to leave the impression that by omission from my speech tonight I do not give them very high priority in British foreign policy. I give the Minister and the Government my assurance that she has our support during the coming year to achieve the significant goals that lay ahead. I would welcome her response to the areas of difference which I have raised and to which other noble Lords have alluded this evening.
11.36 p.m.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Scotland of Asthal): My Lords, it is a great privilege to close this debate although it is now at a late hour. I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken and to my noble friend Lady Symons for introducing it. She has set a high standard for my winding up speech.
I regret to say that I was somewhat surprised by the content of the speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, at the start of our debate. Those of us who care passionately about the people of this country and the international community seek a serious debate. However, I was much heartened and enlightened by the explanation proffered by the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank, who doubted whether the noble Lord's heart was in the comments that he was obliged to utter as leader of his party. Knowing of the noble Lord's reputation for intelligence, I can only believe that the analysis of the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, of the genesis of that speech is accurate; otherwise I would have to wonder whether my own favourable assessment of the noble Lord's good sense was wrong which I would be very loath to do.
I particularly welcome therefore the proper concentration of the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, on foreign and international affairs. How refreshing it was, immediately following the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, to hear the maiden speech of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Guildford. He gave a wonderful and powerful speech. And what a fitting start! It concentrated our minds on what really mattered—comity, international reconciliation, inter and intra-state reconstruction and the creation of an environment where children thrive. It focused our minds and hearts. It acted as a salve for that which preceded it.
I am please to tell the right reverend Prelate that Mozambique received heavily indebted poor countries' HIPC relief in June 1999. I can confirm that

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its government have committed themselves to spending the domestic resources thereby released by external debt relief on activities which help to reduce poverty in that country.
The debate has provided the House with an opportunity to take stock of Britain's relations with the rest of the world and to look at the challenges that lie ahead. As my noble friend Lady Symons said, Britain's relationship with the rest of Europe has been greatly strengthened by the positive approach to the European Union adopted by this Government—a clear break with the past, and a long overdue one.
Britain is now helping to set the agenda for Europe in a way that it has never done in the past. That is delivering real benefits for the people of Britain—in strengthening and. reforming Europe's economy, in extending stability and prosperity to the East, in reforming the common agricultural policy, and in tackling drugs and crime.
I welcome particularly the maiden speech of the noble Lord, Lord Watson of Richmond. His voice was one of calm good sense. It well illustrates the enormous contribution made by the United Kingdom to European harmony and development. I wholeheartedly congratulate the noble Lord and have no hesitation in agreeing with the sentiments he expressed about the influence that we now wield.
The noble Lord, Lord Thomson of Monifieth, rightly advocated the need to take a proper approach to working within Europe. We welcome his valuable contribution and agree that Britain must go to the heart of Europe if we are best to meet British interests. That in no way undermines our close relationships with the countries of North America, with which we have so much in common. Nor can we afford to neglect the Commonwealth, which is a unique institution linking countries with shared values and traditions. The Government welcome the agreement at the CHOGM last weekend to form a high-level group to review the role of the Commonwealth and provide advice on how it can best respond to the challenges of the 21st century.
The noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, was right to raise the issue of overseas territories, the Caribbean and Cuba. It gives me great pleasure, as the Minister responsible for overseas territories, that the gracious Speech reaffirmed our commitment to take forward the offer of British citizenship to their people. We also look forward to next year's Caribbean Forum, which will bring the countries of the Caribbean to London.
In that regard, I note with interest the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper. I assure the noble Baroness that the Government have increased funding for the British Council. I am glad that under the current comprehensive spending review the Government have been able to halt previous cutbacks in funding. The British Council has received the same increase in real terms as the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. We shall make a determined effort to secure a further increase during the next spending review, but I can give no commitment as to the precise figure.
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I also say to the noble Baroness that the Prime Minister has told President Cardoso that he would like to make a bilateral visit to Brazil. We hope that he will be able to do so in the next year. I cannot give the noble Baroness precise details in relation to the movements of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State but undertake to write to her in that regard.
Many noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Dahrendorf, the noble Baroness, Lady Nicholson, the noble Lords, Lord Weidenfeld, Lord Williamson, Lord Moran and others, raised the issue of our involvement in Europe and the next enlargement of the EU. Extending the stability and prosperity enjoyed by the countries of western Europe further eastward will help to heal the scars created by a century marked by division and conflict. Accession negotiations with six countries began during our presidency in 1998. We anticipate that in December the Heads of Government will agree to start negotiations with six more.
I welcome the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Weidenfeld, and the noble Baroness, Lady Nicholson, about the importance of Turkey's hopes in relation to joining the EU in due course, and those of the noble Lord, Lord Williamson of Horton, who brings with him such a wealth of knowledge and expertise. I assure all noble Lords that we have lost none of the energy necessary to pursue the issue with great vigour and care. The Government also share the concern expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Nicholson, that setting firm target dates now would not be the best way to further our goal of early enlargement. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, will accept that as an answer to one of his questions.
Enlargement requires a more effective EU institutional structure. This must be both transparent and democratic. Our agenda for institutional reform has already been influential in setting in train the process of modernisation of the Commission. With Romano Prodi as President and Neil Kinnock as Vice President for reform, we now have a team that can achieve far-reaching change. They are already starting to deliver results.
I am happy to tell the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, that, in addition, the Government welcome the opportunity for further reform provided by the forthcoming inter-governmental conference. The agenda will be focused on the so-called "Amsterdam leftovers", the size of the Commission, the votes re-weighting and possible extension of QMV. I accept the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, that what is important is not only the structure of the Commission, but also its working practices and methods.
We are also open to considering other related issues, such as ensuring that the treaty has effective provisions for dealing with misconduct and the resignation of commissioners. We will protect Britain's ability to secure its key national interests by retaining unanimity for areas such as defence, taxation, social security, own resources, treaty change and frontiers. I can therefore give the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, the assurance he seeks.

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I listened carefully to the words of the noble Lord, Lord Owen, and, although he is not in the Chamber, I can assure him that this Government have no intention of throwing away our fundamental national interests in our engagement with Europe. However, apparently unlike the party opposite, we will not fail to promote Britain's interests by refusing to engage with our partners, when action at a European level would be good for Britain. We shall press for it and welcome it.
I reassure the noble Lords, Lord Owen and Lord Dahrendorf, that we are vigilant and extremely careful in the way we approach the challenging issue which European enlargement presents.
Many noble Lords raised the question of NATO: the noble Lords, Lord Chalfont, Lord Jenkins of Putney, Lord Blaker and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Bramall. Like my noble friend Lady Symons, I underscore that NATO remains the foundation of our defence. The Kosovo campaign demonstrated that a strong, capable and modern NATO, underpinned by unity of purpose among the allies, is essential to the promotion of security and stability throughout Europe.
The Government will work to ensure implementation of the vision set out by NATO heads of government at the Washington Summit in April. We want a NATO better equipped to meet the challenges of the next century and in which the transatlantic link is strengthened by a stronger European contribution to the alliance's missions and capabilities. We welcome the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Owen, in that regard.
The noble Lords, Lord Chalfont, Lord Jenkins of Putney and Lord Blaker, and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Bramall, also raised issues about NATO and its purpose. The collective defence remains the cornerstone of NATO's purpose, but NATO must be able to respond to the new security challenge so as to remain relevant in the post-Cold War era and to ensure the stability of the Euro-Atlantic area. The new strategic concept, launched at the Washington Summit in April, continues to build a NATO which sees no nation as its adversary and which values partnership with many.
As my noble friend Lady Symons made clear, events in Bosnia and Kosovo this decade have shown that Europe needs to develop an effective military capability in order to be able to carry out peace-keeping tasks. We hope that the European Council in Helsinki next month will see a firm commitment from all member states. This will strengthen the European Union's foreign policy and the Atlantic alliance. We work to strengthen European capabilities generally.
I know that the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, seeks to distract me with his usual charm, but I shall try to concentrate on matters to hand. This Government are clear that the Armed Forces should not be used merely as an international gendarmerie Our Armed Forces are trained and equipped for conflict of the highest intensity. That was what the Strategic Defence Review concluded was needed and to that we are committed.
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We seek to match commitments to defence resources, strengths and expertise and Kosovo showed that to good effect. An initial commitment of almost 13,000 personnel was reduced to fewer than 4,000 by the end of the year. This validates the SDR.
The supportive comments of the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Bramall, in relation to HMG's Strategic Defence Review were most welcome and high praise indeed. I reassure him that this Government have as one of their highest priorities the recruitment to the Armed Forces of high calibre young people and their retention. The three services improved their 1998–99 recruitment achievements over the previous year and all are currently on course to achieve this year's targets.
The noble and gallant Lords, Lord Bramall and Lord Craig of Radley, the noble Lord, Lord Vivian, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Park of Monmouth and Lady Strange, raised the issue of MoD spending on defence. As to MoD's 3 per cent annual efficiency saving, we are under no illusions. This is a challenging target that can be achieved only by seeking genuine efficiencies. We are determined to avoid a repetition of the mistakes that the Strategic Defence Review sought to rectify. Solid progress has already been made to meet the target and we are working hard to build on this. But the noble and gallant Lord was incorrect in his approach to resources. Resources are saved through this measure and are being used to enhance the capability of our Armed Forces rather than being lost to the Treasury.
The noble Baronesses, Lady Park of Monmouth and Lady Strange, raised a number of specific issues which it would be impossible to do justice to today. My noble friend Lady Symons will write to the noble Baronesses on the full range of measures being taken by the MoD to address family issues, including accommodation and medical facilities, as soon as possible.
We want an enlarged Security Council that includes Germany and Japan, a successful resolution to its funding problems and the continuation of the internal reforms that have been championed so well by the Secretary-General. NATO's intervention in Kosovo was an important defeat for the policies of nationalist extremists which continue to hold back progress in the former Yugoslavia. Our goal now is to reinforce the pressure for change, particularly in Belgrade. We are tightening the economic pressure on Milosevic and his regime and increasing our support for the democratic opposition. In Kosovo the UK is making a major contribution to the UN mission there and to the NATO-led international Kosovo force. Stability in the Balkans is of crucial interest to all Europeans. This Government remain committed to playing a full part in international efforts to achieve it.
I should respond to the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, that there was no legal basis for that intervention. Her Majesty's Government strongly disagree, as they have explained many times in your Lordships' House. The picture in Kosovo is not quite as bleak as the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, painted

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it today. The security situation continues to improve. While incidents of intimidation and murder continue to occur, their number is reducing. That improving scenario is due in no small part to the efforts of KFOR, including British troops, who continue to do an excellent job under the command of General Klaus Reinhardt.
I turn to the interesting speech of my noble friend Lord Gilbert. He asked about the future status of Kosovo. The UNSCR 1244 gives the UN mission responsibility for promoting the establishment of substantial autonomy and self-government in Kosovo. No option is ruled in or out. Any negotiations will take full account of the Rambouillet agreement which provided the self-government for Kosovo within the FRY; and the Kosovo Albanian delegation accepted Rambouillet which the EU and US supported. But Belgrade refused it.
However, my noble friend knows better than anyone in this House the challenges presented by the constitutional position which links Kosovo with the FRY. He also knows better than anyone else the intricacies of targeting policy and the care which was taken to address those issues in order to get the balance right. Collectively, Her Majesty's Government believe that balance was achieved and it was the correct balance. I believe that the answer to the two questions posed by my noble friend is a qualified yes to the first, and a positive yes to the second. But I am sure that my noble friend Lady Symons will write to him in detail. I would hesitate to say that my noble friend cannot remember his two questions; it may say something of their value. I would not be so rude!
In response to the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, perhaps I may say that Her Majesty's Government are committed to reconstruction and stability in the Balkans. We are also calling for reform and democratisation in Serbia. Serbia cannot hope to rejoin the European mainstream with a head of state who is wanted for crimes against humanity, and the EU sanctions will remain in place against the regime until there is a real change and reform in Belgrade. The biggest threat to stability in the region is Milosevic, and I can assure the noble Earl that we shall work actively as a leading partner in the stability pact to promote economic development as part of our approach to the region. We shall continue to encourage economic reform in the countries of the former Yugoslavia.
I should also like to reassure the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins of Putney, and other noble Lords that we remain committed to the UN as the central pillar of international co-operation. But, as the Prime Minister said in Chicago earlier this year, we must modernise the UN and find ways to make it and its Security Council more effective, a key element in defining more closely the conditions and circumstances when it is right to intervene in the face of massive violations of human rights and international humanitarian law. We cannot expect agreement overnight but we are playing a full part in the effort to develop a broader base of support. I fully endorse the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Desai, in relation to this matter. Like
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the noble Lord we, too, hope that next year's millennium assembly will help to give the UN new impetus and focus for the next century. We are working closely with Secretary-General Annan, and Deputy Secretary-General Frechette to prepare for this. We welcome, too, the supportive comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, in his comprehensive speech and the reminder he gave towards ensuring that our day of remembrance is properly representative of the multicultural contribution made to ensure safety and security.
This Government took a number of significant steps in last year's Strategic Defence Review. We now only have a single nuclear weapon system, Trident. We believe that we have the smallest arsenal of any of the nuclear weapons states. We have also set the international standard in transparency. There is a clear internationally agreed way forward on nuclear disarmament and the priorities are further progress in the START process, the entry into force of the test ban treaty and the negotiation of a fissile material cut-off treaty. We shall continue to press hard for progress in all those areas. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, will be reassured.
Another important contribution is the ICC Bill.
Lord Chalfont: My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the Minister so late at night. However, I was intrigued by her statement that we now have the smallest nuclear striking force of all the nuclear powers. Is that what the noble Baroness said? If so, does she mean by throw weight, numbers of missiles, range of missiles, or what? What is her criterion for that somewhat strange remark?
Midnight
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I was referring to the number and nature of our nuclear weapons system. The remaining defence, which is significant, is Trident. Other countries have many more. In approaching the issue, we have been very clear to ensure that our arsenal is effective but appropriate to the size of the threat presented.
The Government also believe that it is right for war criminals to be brought to justice. We strongly support the establishment of an international court and will publish in draft a Bill to enable the United Kingdom to ratify the court statute. That issue was raised by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham and the noble Lords, Lord Avebury, Lord Dahrendorf and many others. The UK has played a pivotal role in achieving international agreement on the establishment of the international criminal court as a permanent effective body able to punish the Saddams and Milosevics of tomorrow.
The right reverend Prelate and the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, asked about the detail of the Bill and our contacts with the Americans. I hope that they will bear with me if I write to both of them on the former issue. As regards the latter, we have always made our views clear to the United States and shall continue to do so—and, I should say, with vigour.

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I turn to the issues raised by so many noble Lords in relation to the so-styled ethical foreign policy. The Government have placed human rights at the heart of their foreign policy, and they remain there. We are committed to protecting and promoting the rights enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the core United Nations human rights instruments.
The Government have taken many practical steps to demonstrate that and we have made real changes in policy, leading to achievements and progress on many issues—for instance, the introduction of tougher arms export licensing criteria—and have succeeded in getting European Union partners to implement similar criteria. At the Rome Conference in June 1998, we played a key role in the agreement to set up an international criminal court. We have ratified legislation securing the permanent abolition of the death penalty in Britain, allowing us to lobby other governments for the global eradication of capital punishment. We have increased support for the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights and the UK 1998 contribution of £6 million made us one of the largest donors. We strengthened the Foreign and Commonwealth Office's continuing dialogue with civil society. Representatives of Save the Children and Amnesty International have been placed in the human rights policy department, and FCO placements in Article 19 and a minority rights group are planned or under way. The list is endless and at this time of night I shall not trouble the House with more. But I can certainly reassure your Lordships that in this area no government could have been more vigorous.
The noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, and others rightly raised the issue of Russia and Chechnya. Notwithstanding the fact that time is pressing on, I feel that I must answer it fully. We believe that there is a need for a lasting peace in the north Caucasus. We are deeply concerned at the human cost of Russia's actions in Chechnya and the risk to regional stability. It is in Russia's interest and our own that she rapidly secures a negotiated political solution. I assure noble Lords that we shall adopt a balanced approach to the issue. The EU has been very active. The Finnish Prime Minister raised the subject at the EU/Russian Summit on 22nd October. Chechnya was discussed at the EU's Northern Dimension Conference in Helsinki on 11th and 12th November and at the EU General Affairs Council on 15th and 16th November. It is on the agenda of the Istanbul OSCE summit which takes place today and tomorrow. I should now say that it is taking place yesterday and today.
A recently returned OSCE fact-finding mission is reporting to the Istanbul summit and the summit is considering deploying to the region the OSCE Chechnya assistance group, now in Moscow, to support international humanitarian aid. We are
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bilaterally engaging the Russians in that issue. The Prime Minister wrote to Prime Minister Putin on 4th November to express his deep concern and to urge him to pursue a negotiated political settlement, including through the good offices of the OSCE. The Foreign Secretary reinforced that message in a telephone call to the Russian foreign minister on 6th November.
We are aware of the interest of UK companies in many of the issues which were raised by the noble Viscount, Lord Waverley. Those matters are being borne well in mind.
I next turn to the issues raised in relation to Africa. The noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, rightly highlighted the challenges which still exist in Africa. The noble Baroness, Lady Cox, referred to the Sudan. We continue to stress to the Government of Sudan and the opposition groups our concern to see a negotiated end to civil war in that region.
I welcome also the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord St John of Bletso. He was right to raise issues which affect children in those regions; for example, AIDS and education. It was good to hear the African voice in that context.
Many regions of Africa are suffering from the effects of conflict. We are working with other countries, including France and Commonwealth countries, to help support positive change. Having achieved agreement on the UN Security Council resolution, we are now giving active support to the decision to send a 6,000-strong peacekeeping operation to Sierra Leone.
We are giving active support to the Canadian ambassador, Robert Fowler, chair of the Angolan sanctions committee, in his efforts to strengthen sanctions against UNITA. We are also active tackling the factors which fuel conflict in Africa including small-arms proliferation and the trade in illicit diamonds.
International development continues to be an issue which has engaged many noble Lords. I hope that, at this late hour, noble Lords will forgive me for not naming the long list of those who dealt with that particular issue. The Government will continue to place international development targets at the centre of their work to eliminate poverty. We shall encourage other countries and institutions to do the same. We recognise that we must work together in an ever-closer and more effective manner with others and we shall continue to ensure a coherence of policy both nationally and internationally to improve the effectiveness and efficiency of multilateral institutions and to work with NGOs.
The noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, referred to the WTO. That is important to us all. We believe that a broad-based agenda is in the best interests of all WTO members and will offer all countries, particularly developing countries, the opportunity to make solid and substantial gains.
Notwithstanding the late hour, I welcome most warmly the sentiments expressed by my noble friend Lord Stone of Blackheath. Any debate in your

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Lordships' House would, of course, be a matter for the usual channels but no one could question the value of such an opportunity for debate.
This House has had a far-reaching debate. Again, I thank all noble Lords who contributed and particularly those who are currently in the Chamber.
Noble Lords: Hear, hear!
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, in the time available, it has been impossible to do justice to the breadth and depth of the issues raised. Where I have not replied to a specific question raised in the debate, one of my noble friends or I will do so in writing.
The Government remain committed to working constructively with our partners to build a more stable, secure, democratic and prosperous world community. In pursuing those goals, the men and women of the Diplomatic Service work long hours in often difficult and sometimes dangerous conditions. I want to pay tribute to their efforts and to welcome the willingness with which they are embracing the modernisation agenda in opening up the British foreign policy debate to outside experts and ideas.
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It is two-and-a-half years since my noble friend Lady Symons wound up the foreign, defence and development debate on this Government's first Queen's Speech. Since then we have made real and substantial progress, delivering on the agenda she then outlined. We have put Britain at the heart of European decision-making. We have put human rights at the centre of our foreign policy. We have delivered benefits for the people of Britain through trade and investment promotion and consular work overseas. That is a proud record.
That work continues and it will be carried forward expeditiously and with vigour by Ministers, diplomats and officials. We are determined to keep on delivering for Britain internationally.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I beg to move that the debate be now adjourned until Monday next.
Moved, That the debate be now adjourned until Monday next.—(Lord McIntosh of Haringey)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and debate adjourned accordingly until Monday next.
House adjourned at eleven minutes past midnight.

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