Sitting of 24 October 1996

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRAYERS

  Business of the House
  2.34 pm
  The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Tony Newton): As the House is ware, the debate on the Address in reply to the Gracious Speech will be brought to a conclusion on Wednesday 30 October, and you, Madam Speaker, have already indicated the pattern of that debate.
  Following the conclusion of the debate on the Address, the business will be as follows:
  THURSDAY 31 OCTOBER—Proceedings on the Hong Kong Economic and Trade Office Bill.
  FRIDAY 1 NOVEMBER—Debate on the improving schools programme on a motion for the Adjournment of the House.
  In the week commencing 4 November, I envisage that a number of Bills will be set down for Second Reading, which will be published either later today or tomorrow.
  There will be Government business on Thursday 7 November.
  FRIDAY 8 NOVEMBER—The House will not be sitting.
  In the week beginning 11 November, I envisage that Government business will be taken on each day and that there will be a number of other Second Readings of Bills to be published either this week or next. I can give one piece of information, which I hope will be helpful to the House, about the Thursday of that week. I propose that on Thursday 14 November there will be a debate on Hong Kong on a motion for the Adjournment of the House. The debate will be opened by my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary.
  Mrs. Ann Taylor: I thank the Leader of the House for that information and for responding to our requests for another debate on Hong Kong.
  As hon. Members will be aware, this will be a particularly short Session, and it is even more important than usual that the House has as much notice as possible of forthcoming business. I trust that the Leader of the House will try to keep us informed on that basis and I hope that he can confirm this afternoon that he will shortly be able to tell us the days which will be available for Second Reading of private Members' Bills and, indeed, which days will be constituency Fridays.
  It would also help the House if the Leader of the House could give an indication, on an on-going basis, of when the Bills contained in the Queen's Speech are expected to be published, including, of course, the Bill to set up a
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  paedophile register and the Bill to outlaw stalking, both of which the Prime Minister accepted yesterday should be Government Bills.
  Following on from that, I should like to raise a question about the procedure that will be adopted on the guns Bill. The Home Secretary has said that he wants that Bill to be enacted as quickly as possible, and I think that that is common to both sides of the House, but can the Leader of the House give some indication of the time scale of that Bill? Given the very deep and serious concern in the country as a whole, will he urge his colleagues to think again about their refusal to allow a free vote on the important issues regarding the control of handguns, about which many hon. Members on both sides of the House are concerned?
  Finally, as the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has not asked to come and give a statement to the House about the latest evidence on bovine spongiform encephalopathy, and as the lobby of farmers yesterday confirmed our worst fears about the chaos surrounding the Government's management of the BSE crisis, when will the Minister of Agriculture make a statement to Parliament about the crisis, or is he too frightened to appear before the House?
  Mr. Newton: Perhaps I might take the last point first, because, of course, my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of Agriculture answered a private notice question on these matters in the House on our first day back in the spillover from the previous Session, so I hope that the hon. Lady will not feel it reasonable to press the implicit charge that she makes. I simply do not agree with the implicit charge that she made in the last part of her remarks.
  As for research, my understanding is that the research published today confirms—or provides additional evidence—that there may be a link between BSE and the new strain of Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease. Everything that the Government have done since advice was received from the Spongiform Encephalopathy Advisory Committee earlier in the year has been based exactly on that proposition. Indeed, it could be said that Government policy has proceeded on that basis for some six years now, because, earlier, action was taken that went beyond what the scientific advice strictly required at the time. I hope that the hon. Lady will reflect on what she said.
  On a slightly different note, I was grateful to the hon. Lady for her acknowledgement of the advance notice that I gave of a debate on Hong Kong. As she rightly said, the Opposition have been asking for such a debate for some time. I am glad to have been able to respond.
  I will, of course, give as much notice as possible of business. Given that none of the Bills has yet been published, the hon. Lady will appreciate the difficulties. However, much of her curiosity will be satisfied in the next 48 hours, and even more in the next nine or 10 days.
  I readily undertake to give early information about the dates on which private Members' business will be taken, and the dates on which Government Fridays and. constituency Fridays—non-sitting days—will fall.
  We will publish the two Bills to which the hon. Lady referred as soon as possible. They were the subject of exchanges yesterday, and in accordance with the undertakings given, we will ensure that the Opposition are kept informed. However, I am unable to give definite dates now.

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  On the procedures with regard to the firearms legislation, I cannot add to what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said yesterday. It is our aim to publish the Bill either before the end of this month or shortly afterwards.
  Sir Peter Emery: At the start of a new Session, we welcome the fact that the Lord President is still in office. Will he consider the procedural reports that have not been debated, two or three of which would benefit from the views of the whole House being expressed? Will he bear in mind the possibility of finding a half day—if not this week or next week, at least in the near future—in which we could have that debate?
  Mr. Newton: I greatly value the reports produced by the Procedure Committee, and am always mindful of my right hon. Friend's requests. However, at this particular moment I am dealing with a large number of requests for debates on Second Readings of various Bills. I may have to put those requests ahead of his, but I will bear it in mind.
  Mr. Paul Tyler: May I press the Leader of the House on the issue of a statement about the research on bovine spongiform encephalopathy and Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease? In seven months, scientists have produced some important and useful research. Should not that research have been available long ago? They have had seven or eight years to examine those results. Is not it extremely important that one of the responsible Ministers—none of whom will take part in the debate on the Loyal Address—comes before the House, explains the significance of this research for the eradication policy and, in particular, explains why that policy is months behind schedule? The promises that the Prime Minister made after the Florence meeting have all been broken, so why should we believe any new promises?
  Mr. Newton: I cannot add to what I said to the hon. Lady. I will bring the hon. Gentleman's point to the attention of my right hon. Friends.
  Mr. Nicholas Budgen: Does my right hon. Friend agree that speedy and agreed measures often lead to ill-considered and bad legislation, which is what happened with the Dangerous Dogs Act 1989? Is there a danger that the House, in its sympathy for the parents of Dunblane, will forget the legitimate arguments of the people who practise their skills in gun clubs? Would not it be better to have a careful debate on the Adjournment before we rush into legislation on the control of heavy-calibre pistols?
  Mr. Newton: There is a general desire for action to be taken as a matter of urgency. That is not being done quite as hastily as my hon. Friend suggests. Lord Cullen made a long and careful study of these matters in the interval since the Dunblane shootings. I have no doubt that in the wake of that report, and in response to concerns in the country, the view of the House will be that it is right to make early progress.
  Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours: Has the Leader of the House seen a transcript of the remarkable
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  speech on the private finance initiative made by the Chancellor of Exchequer two years ago? The Chancellor apparently wants to restrict the powers of the Comptroller and Auditor General to undertake value-for-money investigations of PFI contracts. In so far as the Comptroller and Auditor General is an Officer of the House and the Chancellor is part of the Executive, is it not an abuse of an Officer of the House to make such a statement and should not there be a full statement from the Dispatch Box?
  Mr. Newton: I have not read the transcript but I have read a copy of the speech that I found in my box a few nights ago. I read it with some care and I do not regard it as saying what the hon. Gentleman says it says.
  Mr. Bob Dunn: Is it possible to arrange for a debate in Government time on the constitutional arrangements by which the country is governed, given that many Conservative Members wish to demonstrate our opposition to any changes affecting the working and composition of the House of Lords, to regional government, to the recreation of the Greater London council and to devolution for Scotland and Wales?
  Mr. Newton: In the light of the pressures to which I have referred on our business in the next few weeks, I cannot make an immediate promise of such a debate. However, I congratulate my hon. Friend on making in such crisp and hard-hitting form the speech that he would make if there were to be such a debate.
  Mr. Dennis Skinner: Will the Leader of the House have a word with the appropriate Minister about the reduction in war pensions for those who were in the far east during the second world war? They received pensions arising from their duty at the time and recently some of them and some widows have had their pensions reduced because at the time the service men were smoking. As the Leader of the House used to be in charge of social security and is a heavy smoker, does not he have a little sympathy for those people who, 50 years ago, were not aware, as people are today, of the consequences of smoking? In any case, they were smoking because of the severe stress under which they were placed. May we have a statement on that and can the matter be reviewed?
  Mr. Newton: The hon. Gentleman is right to say that for some time I was the Minister responsible for these matters. I know how difficult they can be and he may be assured that I have great sympathy for those whose war pensions for disablement or death arising from service in the forces are in question. However, I have to underline that that is the basis of the policy. I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Security will look carefully at what has been said about this case. It is important to remember that the scheme provides benefits when disablement or death are attributable to service in the armed forces.
  Mr. Harry Greenway: May we have a debate next week on the provision of leisure facilities so that I may put before the House the great difficulties that are faced by many riding schools? I am president of the Association of British Riding Schools, but I am not paid for that. The issue should be brought before the

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  House because many of those admirable institutions are being put out of business, thus denying riding facilities to many poor and ordinary people as well as denying a good and sensible living to those who run them.
  Mr. Newton: I would not wish to dismiss my hon. Friend's legitimate concerns. However, it sounds like an appropriate subject for my hon. Friend to pursue on a Wednesday morning or in a daily Adjournment debate, and I am sure that he will seek to enlist your sympathy in that respect, Madam Speaker.
  Mr. Alex Salmond: Why have we not had a statement today from the Chancellor of the Exchequer on this morning's European Court judgment on the VAT sixth directive? Hon. Members in all parts of the House and people in business have been telling the Government and the Treasury for some time that their proposals on VAT were unfair, unsound and open to legal challenge. As the potential bill for this and similar cases could run to many billions of pounds and make the Chancellor's predecessor's activities on black Wednesday look small in comparison, is it not high time that a Treasury Minister came to the Dispatch Box to tell us the exact consequences and implications of that court judgment?
  Mr. Newton: Not for the first time, the hon. Gentleman appears to be engaging in a certain amount of hyperbole, but, as with many legal judgments, the first thing to do is to study the terms of this one carefully. I am advised, however—and this is where he was exaggerating—that, at the most extreme, the loss would be around £200 million, not the billions to which he refers, and that back tax would be payable only if traders could substantiate claims going back 23 years.
  Mr. Michael Fabricant: Will my right hon. Friend arrange for a statement to be made on the amount of expenditure on the national health service? He will be aware that, yesterday, the Leader of the Opposition said that the last Labour Administration spent more in real terms on the health service than the current Conservative Government. It turns out that House of Commons Library statistics show that the Conservative Government spend in real terms some 40 per cent. more than the last Labour Administration. This matter needs to be put straight, as I am sure that the leader of the Labour party did not mean to mislead the House.
  Mr. Newton: The point was very well made in an intervention yesterday afternoon and it was not answered. I have no doubt that my hon. Friend's further point will in due course elicit a response from the Leader of the Opposition.
  Rev. Martin Smyth: In the first tranche of Second Reading Bills, will there be one dealing with the decommissioning of weapons, or is the delay since March due to the fact that perhaps both the Irish Government and Her Majesty's Government are not convinced that there will be a genuine ceasefire and do not wish to waste the House's time?
  Mr. Newton: The hon. Gentleman knows that the reasons for giving careful consideration to these matters are not quite as he seeks to suggest. I cannot say that I
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  expect the decommissioning Bill to be among the first tranche, but he will know that reference was made to it in the Gracious Speech.
  Mr. Andrew Faulds: When can the House have an opportunity to debate the increased social damage that the intended bi-weekly Camelot lotteries will cause to poorer members throughout every community in the country, in every constituency in the country?
  Mr. Newton: The hon. Gentleman will know that this follows a judgment, by the Director General of the Office of the National Lottery, under his responsibilities, that granting this application is consistent with the duties placed on him under the legislation, but both he and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for National Heritage will monitor carefully the effect of the introduction of a midweek lottery and they will take into account the point that the hon. Gentleman has made.
  Mr. Ian Bruce: Can my right hon. Friend find an early opportunity to discuss sport, particularly the Prime Minister's excellent proposal in relation to the British academy of sport. to give hon. Members the opportunity to talk about the excellent facilities that might be available in their constituencies? I am especially interested in pressing the case of Portland as the best place for a British academy of sport.
  Mr. Newton: I take note, as I am sure my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will, of the pressure of the constituency interest, which I well understand. On the main thrust of the question, it is an attractive subject for a debate and I will bear it in mind.
  Mr. David Winnick: Will the Leader of the House reconsider his reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Dewsbury (Mrs. Taylor) about firearms legislation? Is he aware that the reputation not just of the Government or the Opposition, but of Parliament is at stake? Following the Dunblane massacre, people in Britain were concerned about handguns and they are not giving in—and I hope that we will not—to the gun lobby. It seems inconceivable that Parliament will not have a free vote. Surely on such an issue there is every possible case for such a vote. As the Government have already climbed down on two matters yesterday, why do they not climb down on this issue and allow Members to have a free vote on whether we want a full ban on handguns?
  Mr. Newton: I indicated to the hon. Member for Dewsbury (Mrs. Taylor), I hope courteously, that I cannot add to what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said yesterday, and I am not going to do so in response to the hon. Gentleman either.
  Mr. Bruce Grocott: Does the Leader of the House share my astonishment at the Home Secretary's view that the quickest way to get legislation on to the statute book is by means of the private Member's Bill procedure? Will the right hon. Gentleman arrange a debate on parliamentary procedure and confirm that the majority of the Bills introduced by the 20 hon. Members who are lucky enough to be successful in the ballot never reach the statute book? Even the Bills that do reach the

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  statute book take several months to do so. Does the right hon. Gentleman share my concern at the Home Secretary's ignorance of basic parliamentary facts?
  Mr. Newton: On the contrary, I have been given some reason for concern in the last 30 seconds about the hon. Gentleman's understanding of parliamentary procedure and what occurs with private Members' Bills.
  Mr. Harry Barnes: When President Clinton was in Ireland, masses of people turned out in Belfast and Dublin wearing white ribbons to support the cause of peace. Today is Ceasefire Now Day in Ireland, as can be seen from early-day motion 42.
  [That this House notes that the Solidarity to Organise Peace (STOP) group is organising a Ceasefire Now Day on Thursday 24th October throughout the Irish Republic and for which they are asking for one minute's silence in memory of Warrant Officer James Bradwell, who was murdered at the Thiepval barracks in Lisburn; notes that on this day STOP will urge the Provisional IRA to call an immediate ceasefire, as desired by 71 per cent. of their own voters according to a poll in the Irish News, and will encourage the loyalist paramilitaries to maintain their own two year old ceasefire; and encourages all those who sympathise with this initiative to wear white ribbons in solidarity.]
  As a result, people in Ireland are repeating the exercise to which I referred. The demand for peace has not gone away. Is there some means by which the House can show its sympathy with that cause, such as a minute's silence for the warrant officer who was killed at Lisburn, and with the demands that the IRA should enter into a ceasefire—even if it only takes the form of the right hon. Gentleman's reply?
  Mr. Newton: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his courtesy, and I am happy to respond. I am glad that the hon. Gentleman had the opportunity to raise those matters and make his points. I would like, as would everybody else in the House, to support the efforts of groups—wherever they may be—working for a peaceful and lasting settlement in Northern Ireland.
  Mr. John Gunnell: I suggest that the Secretary of State for Health addresses the House along the lines of his speech to the Association of Directors of Social Services last week, when he suggested that the future role of social services departments should be limited to purchasing. That comment seems ill-timed in view of the national report on child abuse, which obviously envisages social services departments continuing their current major role in dealing with child abuse.
  Mr. Newton: From my knowledge of such matters, for which I have also had responsibility as a Minister, I believe
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  that the hon. Gentleman is being somewhat unfair. None of the reports that I read of my right hon. Friend's remarks suggested anything other than a determination to ensure proper registration and inspection schemes for homes of whatever kind. The issue is how that is best achieved.
  Mr. Toby Jessel: As the national lottery was mentioned a few moments ago, does my right hon. Friend consider that the time is right for a further general debate on that subject this winter—particularly in view of the national lottery's tremendous success in raising sums of money for the arts, the national heritage, sport and charities, which is a brilliant national achievement?
  Mr. Newton Mr. Newton: That is an attractive subject for debate, but one of the Bills expected to follow yesterday's Queen's Speech is connected with the national lottery, so that might provide the opportunity for a debate of the kind that my hon. Friend is seeking.

BILLS PRESENTED
  HONG KONG ECONOMIC AND TRADE OFFICE
  Mr. Secretary Rifkind, supported by Mr. Secretary Heseltine, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Secretary Lang, Mr. Anthony Nelson and Mr. Jeremy Hanley, presented a Bill to make provision about privileges and immunities in relation to an economic and trade office established in the United Kingdom by the government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time tomorrow and to be printed. [Bill 1.]
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND RATING
  Mr. Secretary Gummer, supported by the Prime Minister, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Secretary Howard, Secretary Sir George Young, Mr. Secretary Forsyth, Mr. Secretary Hague, Mr. David Curry and Mr. James Clappison, presented a Bill to make further provision about non-domestic rating; to make further provision about parishes and parish councils; to confer additional powers on parish councils and community councils; and for connected purposes: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time tomorrow and to be printed. [Bill 2.]
  CRIME (SENTENCES)
  Mr. Secretary Howard, supported by the Prime Minister, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Secretary Rifkind, Mr. Secretary Dorrell, Secretary Sir Patrick Mayhew, Mr. Secretary Forsyth and Mr. David Maclean, presented a Bill to make further provision with respect to the treatment of offenders; and for connected purposes: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time tomorrow and to be printed. [Bill 3.]
Orders of the Day

  Debate on the Address
  [SECOND DAY]
  Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question [23 October],
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, as follows:
  Most Gracious Sovereign,
  We, your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament.—[Sir Norman Fowler.]
  Question again proposed.

  Foreign Affairs and Defence
  2.58 pm
  The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Malcolm Rifkind): This debate offers the House the opportunity to consider British foreign policy against the background of a Europe that has changed more in the past 10 years than probably at any time since the French revolution in 1789. Over the past 10 years, we have seen the collapse of the Berlin wall, end of the cold war, disappearance of the Warsaw pact, disintegration of the Soviet Union and a series of other dramatic changes in Europe. They have had an effect which has resonated throughout the world and has had substantial global implications.
  For some 44 years, our world was essentially a bi-polar world as the two alliances—the NATO alliance and the Warsaw pact—faced each other in a potentially threatening fashion. There were super-powers in each alliance—the United States and the Soviet Union—with massive nuclear arsenals. There was the ideological conflict of capitalism versus communism.
  Those disagreements, disputes and conflicts were not limited to Europe. The cold war meant that events throughout the world were assessed, largely, in relation to their implications for the cold war. Indeed, the rest of the world called itself the third world. The very name it gave itself had significance only as an aspect of the cold war between the west and the Soviet Union. When there was a coup d'etat in Latin America, the main interest was whether it would produce a Government who were pro-communist or pro the United States. If there was a revolution in Africa, what were the implications for the cold war? If there was a civil war in Afghanistan, what were the geo-political considerations beyond Afghanistan in the wider international context?
  Mr. David Winnick: The right hon. and learned Gentleman is taking a historical road and I should point out that this is the 40th anniversary of the Hungarian uprising. Also, since it is the 40th anniversary of the Suez aggression, would it not be appropriate for the Government to publish a White Paper which, for the first time, gives the truth about what happened before the aggression and about the collusion which undoubtedly took place between the three Governments—the British, the French and the Israelis? After 40 years, why can we not be told the full truth at long last? Surely we are entitled to know.
  Mr. Rifkind: I suspect that we do know the full truth. I am not aware of any significant unresolved issues.
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  Although the hon. Gentleman's party has not been involved in producing White Papers for a long time, he should realise that the primary purpose of a White Paper is to look to the future. We are content to leave it to historians, taking into account Government documents, to assess the lessons of the past.
  That bi-polar world is now behind us with the end of the cold war and we now have a multi-polar situation. There is only one world super-power, yet we have the development of global politics. So many issues are affecting the world as a whole in an unprecedented way. The last time there was a global world, it was based on colonial empires. All those empires—the British, the French and even the Russian—have now disappeared. The factors that now lead to global issues, which will increasingly dominate our debates and the interests of our country, do not arise simply as a result of the end of the cold war but have been given a spur because of that.
  Market economy capitalism is dominant throughout the world. Almost every country, including communist China, is developing what is, in effect, a capitalist economy. We have an extraordinary development in personal communications and information technology which is accelerating and which will give rise to new global dimensions. We have the movement of capital in an unprecedented way which is making it impossible for any one country to have a completely separate economic policy.
  We have the extraordinary growth of trade, not just with the single market in Europe or the North American Free Trade Agreement area, but with the countries of south-east Asia, Japan, Latin America and China which are increasingly becoming major international contributors to the extraordinary increase in global trade and are doing so through the disintegration of internal barriers to wealth creation and economic activity.
  There are not just encouraging developments. There are new global threats of which we should be equally conscious. One of the most unwise predictions of recent years was that of the American philosopher who, at the end of the cold war, said that it was the end of history. I prefer the alternative statement which is that as one door closes another slams in your face.
  We have significant new threats. The international development of terrorism and crime can be properly combated only by unprecedented international action. The threat of drugs is, clearly, an international threat with those who produce drugs and allow them to transit through their territory having to be involved in dealing with that difficulty.
  There is the ever-present threat of weapons of mass destruction, and I do not mean only nuclear weapons, on which most attention has been focused. The increasing threat from chemical and biological weapons is introducing an entirely new dimension into the world, and it is relevant not only as a threat from states but as a potential threat from terrorist organisations.
  We have increasingly become aware of the fact that environmental considerations can be understood properly only in global terms. Pollution knows no national boundaries—as we discovered when the Chernobyl disaster had implications for farmers in Wales and elsewhere. Those issues, too, require an international response.
  The worrying and disturbing growth in religious extremism has major political consequences. I am not thinking only of Islamic extremism, although that has

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  been the most visible example. The assassination of the Israeli Prime Minister by a fellow Israeli demonstrates a similar problem and is indicative of a serious and challenging difficulty that has to be dealt with.
  Mr. Andrew Rowe (Mid-Kent): Bearing in mind the news this morning about what is happening in Burma, and given the record of oppression of minorities—including Christian minorities—by the State Law and Order Restoration Council and the Burmese Government, can my right hon. and learned Friend assure us that the international community is as anxious to stamp out the type of corrupt extremism practised in a country such as Burma as it is in stamping out corruption in countries closer to home?
  Mr. Rifkind: Burma is one of the most disturbing examples of the suppression of basic political liberties, which is happening at a time when there has been a significant increase in political liberty in so many other parts of the world, including Asia. There is a need for international interest in this matter, and to use whatever means are available that would have some prospect of helping the growth of democratic institutions.
  Mr. Robin Cook: Should the Danes revive their proposal for European sanctions in Burma until there is an improvement in human rights, will the Government—after the Foreign Secretary has expressed those sentiments—support them?
  Mr. Rifkind: I should like to make two points. First, the level of European—including British—trade with Burma is insignificant; therefore, we should not kid ourselves that sanctions alone would have a significant impact. Secondly, the British Government's view is that economic sanctions can make sense only if they are endorsed by the United Nations. We do not believe that sanctions promoted by individual countries or groups of countries are likely to have an impact, which is precisely why we disagreed with the United States on sanctions against Iran. The Security Council gave its endorsement to such a policy in the case of Iran, which it did not in the case of Libya. Our view on sanctions against other countries is based on comparable considerations.
  Sir David Steel: Will the Foreign Secretary at least give us an assurance that, until there is a change of heart in Burma—including the promised dialogue with the opposition party and the lifting of restrictions on Aung San Suu Kyi—there will be no further Government-sponsored trade missions to Burma?
  Mr. Rifkind: We currently do not have such missions that I am aware of, and I do not think that it is at all likely that there will be a change in policy.
  Sir Peter Emery: Before the Foreign Secretary finishes the part of his speech dealing with Europe, will he consider much more fully the American desire to dash madly for NATO enlargement? Does he realise that, although it is correct that there is no way in which the Russians should be able to have a veto over any enlargement, it is necessary to ensure greater confidence
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  between Russia and the rest of Europe? There must also be some lateral thinking on issues of non-aggression, weapons control and even non-aggression pacts, rather than build up the obvious fear of every leader of any party in Russia about the enlargement of NATO, whether that fear is justified or not.
  Mr. Rifkind: I do not think that the countries of central and eastern Europe believe that there has been a "mad dash" towards allowing their membership of NATO. We are normally criticised by them because they believe that the entire process goes too slowly. I very much agree with my right hon. Friend that the issue of NATO enlargement should not be examined in isolation. If the policy is to be sensible, we must remember that European security is indivisible and that NATO enlargement should be part of a tripartite strategy.
  I believe that NATO enlargement should go ahead, but it should be accompanied by a strategic relationship between NATO and Russia, very much for the type of reasons that my right hon. Friend the Member for Honiton (Sir P. Emery) mentioned, and I believe that there must also be a coherent strategy for NATO's relations with those other countries that are not applying to join NATO—the most important being Ukraine—which also have very important security interests which we need to take into account.
  Mr. Nicholas Winterton rose—
  Mr. Rifkind: I want to make progress, but I shall give way to my hon. Friend.
  Mr. Winterton: My right hon. and learned Friend has mentioned some of the problems that have occurred recently. Will he mention the grotesque, dramatic refugee problem that now confronts the world? I shall not now mention Zaire, Rwanda or Burundi and the tragedy of the refugees in that part of Africa. I shall mention a small country in the north of India, Bhutan, and its problems with Nepal. What are the British Government doing to solve the severe and growing refugee problem in Bhutan and Nepal?
  Mr. Rifkind: My hon. Friend is right: the movement of peoples, especially refugees, is a very serious problem in various parts of the world, and I am aware of the background to the problem in Bhutan. I do not claim that the United Kingdom can directly make a major impact on that problem—that is for the countries of the region to tackle—but my hon. Friend can assume that of course we will do our best, along with others, to help to solve that problem.
  I have mentioned the way—
  Sir Peter Tapsell: While we are on the subject of NATO enlargement, may I say how very much I agree with what my old and right hon. Friend the Member for Honiton (Sir P. Emery) said on that subject? [HON. MEMBERS: "Old?"] I meant a friend of long standing. He is much younger than I am, anyhow.
  As a matter of wisdom, looking to the future, it would be very unhappy indeed if, at a time when Russia is going through what will be only a temporary phase of weakness, we were to give all the Russian leaders a feeling that we

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  are seeking to take advantage of that to create a position that will threaten their national future. It is very alarming if a succession of national leaders visit eastern Europe and promise individually that specific countries will be admitted to NATO by certain dates. Let us remember the pledge that we gave to Poland in 1939, which we were not effectively able to fulfil and for which the Poles have never really forgiven us, and for goodness sake do not let us make similar mistakes again.
  Mr. Rifkind: It is precisely for the reasons that my hon. Friend gives that the process of considering NATO enlargement has been taken forward very slowly, cautiously and carefully in the past few years. I do not believe that we shall rush into those matters. It is likely that a decision will be taken by the middle of next year to enter into negotiations with some of the applicant countries. I cannot predict how long those negotiations will last. I hope that they will not last too long, because I do not believe that the uncertainty is of benefit, but I assure my hon. Friend that it is precisely because NATO is not only a political club—it involves commitments to collective security—that we must address those issues, and do so sensibly.
  I mentioned the way in which we have moved into a multi-polar world, and I said that the challenges that confront us are very different from those that confronted us a few years ago. That is especially true in Europe. Much of the political debate, in this country and elsewhere, is about the future institutional development of the European Union—issues of majority voting, and so on. We should remember that, important though those issues are, they are not necessarily the most important ones confronting Europe.
  In the past few years, we have been presented with some extraordinary challenges which have not yet been properly addressed. We have a great debate about what degree of integration is sensible in western Europe. It is worth remembering that the experience of central and eastern Europe has been not integration, but disintegration.
  The Soviet Union collapsed into 16 separate countries. Yugoslavia disintegrated into five new states. Czechoslovakia broke up into two countries, fortunately peacefully. Therefore we have an experience of unprecedented integration in western Europe, when the experience of eastern Europe has been disintegration. One of the great challenges for the whole of Europe is to find a way to bring together those two parts of our continent in a way that can produce harmony and stability.
  Yes, we witnessed the end of the cold war—the cold war has been seen to be a temporary aberration of European history—but it has been replaced by a pretty hot peace. We have not yet had peace and stability throughout Europe. I believe that, during the entire cold war, not one NATO or Warsaw pact soldier lost his life in conflict between the two alliances—not a single person—yet, in the years since the end of the cold war, we have had the slaughter in Bosnia and the great loss of life in Chechnya, Armenia and other parts of Europe.
  I believe that the enlargement of the European Union will ultimately be even more important than the specific powers of European Union institutions, because unless we achieve a proper, meaningful and stable relationship with countries such as Ukraine and Russia—the new nation states of eastern Europe—we shall make a fundamental and historic mistake.
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  I have a suggestion for the House: we should stop talking about the former Soviet Union or the Commonwealth of Independent States when we refer to those countries. Countries such as Ukraine, Armenia and the Baltic states are now independent nations, just as Poland, Hungary, France, Britain or Germany are. Every time we refer to them as the former Soviet Union, we imply an identity that can be understood only by reference to their relationship with Moscow. We do not refer to Poland as the former Warsaw pact nor to the United States as the former British empire.
  Sir Peter Emery: Shame.
  Mr. Rifkind: If we can apply consistency, I do not mind, but until we refer to the United States as the former British empire, we should refer to those countries as what they are. Ukraine is eastern Europe; Russia is eastern Europe; Poland, Hungary and the other states are central Europe; and that geographical designation would have a political impact as well as being a more accurate reflection of their situation.
  Mr. Menzies Campbell: What about Scotland?
  Mr. Rifkind: That is western Europe—I hope that that is not controversial.
  I want to report briefly to the House on the intergovernmental conference, which continues to have serious and important deliberations. The timing is now pretty clear: at the Dublin summit later this year, the presidency will produce draft conclusions, not with a serious expectation of immediate agreement but to focus the debate more specifically on the outstanding issues, because only when one addresses texts does one know where each country stands and what are likely to be the important areas of difference. There is now total agreement that the Amsterdam summit of June next year will be the end of the intergovernmental conference. Britain agrees with that, and I believe that it is the view of all the member states.
  Important progress is being made on issues such as the future of the Western European Union; there is not yet final agreement, but there is broad acceptance of the way in which we are heading on such matters. The important question of the relationship of WEU to the European Union remains, and I believe that our determination that the one should not be subordinated to the other will be reflected in the final conclusions.
  On common foreign and security policy, on the role of national Parliaments and on the subsidiarity protocol, good progress has been made, and over the next few months satisfactory conclusions will be reached. Some issues will be more difficult to resolve than others, but I believe that it is right to draw attention to those on which progress is already being made.
  Mr. Jim Marshall: The Secretary of State mentioned the Western European Union. As he well knows, its enlargement is being discussed. How would that future enlargement be affected by the proposed enlargement of NATO to include the central European countries of Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic?
  Mr. Rifkind: There has been a foolish assumption in certain quarters—it is not being pursued now—that a

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  country would be entitled to join WEU without joining NATO. That is an unsustainable proposition because WEU, like NATO, involves a commitment to collective security. Joining is not merely a political declaration. The treaty of Brussels, under which WEU was set up, is a treaty of collective security, but the assets that provide that security are NATO assets, so the United States has a crucial role. The political and factual reality is that one cannot be a full member of WEU without being a member of NATO. Only those countries that are contemplating joining both will be able to consider accession to WEU.
  Mr. Ian Bruce: Will my right hon. and learned Friend say a little more about the European Court? Many of my constituents know that, if the courts in this country do something that the Government believe to be wrong, the Government can introduce a Bill and change the law. My constituents are concerned that no power in the land—not Westminster and not even the Council of Ministers or the European Parliament—can reverse a European Court decision. Can we have an assurance that European Court decisions that politicians do not believe to be right can be reversed using European Community mechanisms?
  Mr. Rifkind: The European Court was created by the treaty and can therefore be changed by treaty amendment. The intergovernmental conference provides an opportunity to make certain changes. The United Kingdom has published its proposals—I shall not go into them today, but they are available to the House. That is the way in which one deals with any such situation.
  The single most important issue for the intergovernmental conference is only beginning to be addressed now—flexibility. We must consider the extent to which groups of European Union states will be able to act together, when not all member states wish to do so, and still have access to European Union institutions. If they do not want access to EU institutions, there is no problem, as the Schengen agreement has shown. Any group of countries can join together on their own initiative and take certain actions jointly. However—this is a fundamental British position—access to European Union institutions for those in such agreements is acceptable only if all 15 states agree. We believe that not for theoretical or ideological reasons, but because access to European institutions means the involvement of the European Commission, the European Court of Justice and the budget. That is not acceptable unless all 15 agree.
  Such agreement is possible, as with the Europol convention. The issue was whether countries under the Europol convention should have access to the European Court of Justice. The final agreement was that the other 14 states would have access to the European Court of Justice on Europol matters and the United Kingdom would not. That arrangement is acceptable because it was agreed by all 15 member states.
  I do not suggest that we or any other country have thought out all the implications of flexibility. It is a fundamental issue and much more work needs to be done in this country and elsewhere if we are to move in that direction. No one doubts that the European Union of the future will be flexible—that is unavoidable and such flexibility already exists to some extent. The issues are
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  how the system will work, what the institutional implications will be and how the interests of minorities as well as majorities can be properly safeguarded.
  Mr. Harry Barnes: Will the Secretary of State confirm that he has just said that the way to change a European Court decision that people find offensive is by altering treaties? Cannot European Union regulations and directives be altered under current treaty arrangements? If the other method is the only one available, we are really into something rather tight.
  Mr. Rifkind: That is a fair point. Part of the problem has been that some directives have not been properly drafted and have been insufficiently precise about what is required. That inevitably gives the European Court the opportunity to make law as well as to interpret it. There is a need for greater precision, clarity and care in the drafting of directives and regulations. I am saying to those who criticise the powers of the European Court that those powers are created by treaty and can be amended only by amending the treaty. That is a straightforward point.
  Mr. Bernard Jenkin: I commend my right hon. and learned Friend's caution on flexibility, but given that we are all under the single jurisdiction of the European institutions, which tends to be an enlarging and deepening jurisdiction, if we allow some member states to take that jurisdiction even further just for themselves, what protection will we have against that jurisdiction extending to the other member states? That is particularly problematic, given that we have a single market with freedom of trade, free and open borders for workers in the European Union and a free transfer of rights between individuals of member states. Is it not increasingly becoming impossible to compartmentalise jurisdiction in some states and not others, unless those states have a constitutional safeguard to prevent the court from enlarging its jurisdiction unilaterally?
  Mr. Rifkind: I have considerable sympathy with my hon. Friend, who sums up an important part of the challenge that we face. However, we cannot duck that challenge. We already have flexibility and it will increase. The challenge for all member states is how to manage that flexibility—what degree of flexibility should be permitted with access to European institutions and how to prevent the unacceptable consequences to which my hon. Friend referred.
  I do not claim that we have all the answers today. That is precisely why I said that more work needs to be done and that our final judgment on these matters will be determined and not just influenced by whether we find a satisfactory way of managing them. We cannot avoid the issue. Flexibility already exists and is bound to increase as the European Union enlarges. The real challenge is not whether we deal with it but how we deal with it.
  Before I leave the subject of the European Union, let me refer to certain remarks made by the right hon. Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook).
  Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours: Will the Secretary of State give way?
  Mr. Rifkind: Let me make some progress first. Perhaps I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman later.

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  I noted with interest that, in his speech to the Labour party conference, the right hon. Gentleman said:
  "we are going to put jobs at the head of the European agenda … jobs will be the bottom line by which we judge whether Britain will join any single currency."
  So jobs are the most important criterion—the single question. Yet, in the same breath—[HON. MEMBERS: "Not the single important question."] The right hon. Gentleman certainly said that jobs were the most important consideration. He said that they would be the bottom line and at the head of our European agenda. He said that jobs would be both at the head of the agenda and the bottom line. Yet, in the same breath, he said that, within the first year after the general election, if there were a Labour Government they would end the British opt-out and sign up to the social chapter. No attempt was made to reconcile those brave words which are mutually incompatible.
  The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that unemployment in Britain is the lowest in Europe and is declining at a time when in other member states it is larger and increasing. In Britain, the figure is below 8 per cent. In Germany, it has been 8 and 9 per cent. In France, it is 12 per cent.; in Italy, 15 per cent.; and in Spain, 22 per cent. and increasing. If the right hon. Gentleman says that that is all very well, but it cannot be credited to the British Government, let me remind him what has been said by others whom he may consider more impartial. Let me remind him what was said in Le Monde on 20 October last year.
  Mr. Denis MacShane: Last year?
  Mr. Rifkind: Yes. I am coming up to the present day. Le Monde remarked:
  "How does one interpret the incredible change in unemployment in Great Britain? If unemployment is dropping in Great Britain, it is because they have done everything to deserve it. For several years, considerable efforts have been made to improve the workings of the labour market thereby boosting job and new company creations".
  Philips, the Dutch company, said:
  "The most competitive country in Europe today is the UK. It has a great sense of realism, a great sense of the competitive spirit".
  The chairman of BMW in Germany said:
  "Great Britain is currently the most attractive country among all European locations for producing cars."
  The Leader of the Opposition went to Germany and lectured the German CBI. He might like to know what the president of the German CBI said about the causes of unemployment:
  "Excessively high German labour costs are costing more and more German jobs. There is really no call for minimum wages in our economic system".
  Mr. MacShane: Will the Secretary of State give way?
  Mr. Rifkind: In a moment. The right hon. Member for Livingston has to make up his mind: either he wants to make jobs a priority or he wishes to give priority to his ideological objectives. He cannot do both.
  In his recent interview in the New Statesman and Society, the right hon. Member for Livingston made a remarkable statement:
  "The terrific potential for a Labour victory in Britain is that not only would you have a straight majority of Prime Ministers at the EU summit from socialist sister parties, but you would also then
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  have one of the key players in Europe on their side. With a Labour Government in Britain we could put together an alliance that would enable a different agenda at those EU summits."
  He says that that is a socialist agenda. I understand that socialism is not a dirty word for him. In a recent interview, he said:
  "I am not afraid to use that word—socialism".
  I wonder from whom he was distinguishing himself. I wonder especially what is the socialist agenda in Europe to which he is committed, because we have not heard much about one from the Leader of the Opposition. He does not tell us anything about socialist agendas or suggest that that is why a Labour Government are required. Since such an agenda is the pet scheme of the right hon. Gentleman, I would be grateful if he could enlighten us on it.
  Mr. MacShane rose—
  Mr. Rifkind: I am happy to give way to the hon. Gentleman. I know that he often speaks for his Front-Bench team, and I am sure that he is about to do so now.
  Mr. MacShane: The Foreign Secretary gave us unattributed quotes from Le Monde of a year ago and mentioned a German leader. May I put to him the remarks last week of Mr. Adair Turner of the CBI? He praised Germany, pointing out that its growth rate in per capita gross domestic product had been higher than that of the United States in the past five, indeed 10, years, and said that the high wages—there is no minimum wage in Germany—forced managers to compete effectively and that the German model had much to teach Britain. Instead of patronising Germany, would the right hon. and learned Gentleman care to learn something from it?
  Mr. Rifkind: I am happy to praise Germany and its economy. It has had the remarkable good sense to reject socialist government for the past 10 to 15 years. That may in part explain the phenomenon to which the hon. Gentleman referred.
  Mr. Peter Shore: The Foreign Secretary has been very generous with his time, but I really think that he should treat the House more seriously when he is discussing such issues and should abandon, for a time at any rate, the more frivolous approach that he is adopting.
  Surely we can get the right hon. and learned Gentleman to agree with this: the social chapter, as a major issue, is a fraud. There is virtually nothing in it, and although it may suit him to pretend that it will have an enormous effect on costs in Britain, he knows that that is untrue. I know very well that my hon. Friends know it to be untrue as well. It is an empty satchel.
  What matters, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman pointed out, are the different labour costs in different parts of Europe. They are due to national legislation rather than to the social chapter. They are also due—I should like him to give his view on this—to the fact that continental European countries are still bound in with the exchange rate mechanism and have exchange rate policies that are not competitive. We have enjoyed precisely the revival in

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  the economy that has occurred because we escaped the ERM and are in a much more competitive exchange rate position.
  Mr. Rifkind: I have no quarrel with part of what the right hon. Gentleman says, but he knows perfectly well that the main reason why other member states of the European Union want to force us into the social chapter is that they wish to erode our competitive advantage, which arises out of the lesser non-labour costs that the UK enjoys. That has been endorsed by the leaders of German industry as well as by industry in other countries.
  I am conscious of the fact that the new challenges that we face in Europe and around the world have to be reflected in the nature of our foreign policy. For the years to come, I believe that British foreign policy should be founded on four basic pillars. The first is the partnership of nations, which is our concept of the way in which the European Union should develop. Secondly, we need to take forward the transatlantic dimension: the concept of Atlantic free trade. The move towards tightening our links with the countries of north America is crucial. I am particularly delighted at the first meeting of the Oxford Forum—bringing together American congressmen, Members of Parliament and German parliamentarians—because in recent times there has been minimum contact at parliamentary level. Congress takes a deep interest in seeking to influence foreign policy but, sadly, congressmen have not always been keen to meet foreigners. That has been a problem, but we are slowly overcoming it.
  I believe that the third pillar of our foreign policy should be promotion of the extraordinary asset that we have in the English language. The English-speaking world and the Commonwealth are a great British asset. The Commonwealth covers a quarter of the globe, and it is an asset not only to us but to all the countries within it, because of our common interests.
  Mr. Nigel Evans: Will my right hon. and learned Friend therefore give his support to BBC World Service Television for the valuable role that it plays in ensuring that not only the English language but independent news is heard throughout the world?
  Mr. Rifkind: I agree with my hon. Friend, and I look forward to the day when BBC World Service Television has the same extraordinary success as the BBC World Service has had and continues to have. That must be the target, and it is an objective that we support.
  The fourth pillar on which our foreign policy needs to be based is the championing of global free trade. Early next month, the President of the Board of Trade and I will publish a White Paper on the fundamental link between free trade and foreign policy. I believe that that is a natural subject in which the United Kingdom can take a lead. We are by nature a merchant free trading nation and, just as within the European Union we have advanced the cause of free trade and the breaking down of economic barriers, so at global level, as the world moves towards adopting the year 2020 as the target date for global free trade, the United Kingdom has a special contribution to make.
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  The four pillars of our foreign policy are best summed up by Tennyson's description of the Duke of Wellington:
  "that tower of strength
  Which stood four-square to all the winds that blew!"
  That is the approach that we should adopt.
  Before I conclude, I shall refer briefly to three or four specific areas of the world—
  Mr. Menzies Campbell rose—
  Mr. Rifkind: I shall not take up too much of the time of the House, because I know that many hon. Members wish to speak, but I shall give way to the hon. and learned Gentleman.
  Mr. Campbell: I am grateful to the Foreign Secretary for giving way—although I cannot match his literary allusion. While he is talking about the principles that should govern British foreign policy, will he say whether he agrees that one should be the need to promote respect for human rights, which was mentioned in the Gracious Speech? If so, how does he explain our continued willingness to supply arms to the Government of Indonesia while they are engaged in the brutal suppression of East Timor?
  Mr. Rifkind: We do not provide the Indonesian Government with arms that are used in East Timor, but we are prepared to provide equipment legitimately required by that Government for the external defence of Indonesia. That is our criterion, and it has been consistently applied.
  I shall talk first about Hong Kong, which is perhaps the single most important priority for the United Kingdom in terms of our obligations over the next year. Useful progress has been made this year, and the Prime Minister and I could depend on no one more than my friend, the Governor of Hong Kong, because of the extraordinarily impressive way in which he has carried out his responsibilities. In his policy address on 2 October he revealed the determination with which he wishes to take forward those responsibilities.
  One of the important decisions still to be taken is the appointment of the first chief executive of Hong Kong. We welcome the fact that the Chinese Government have said that they recognise that the choice of person for that post will be crucial in determining the confidence of the people of Hong Kong, and we look forward to hearing of that choice.
  British responsibilities and interests in Hong Kong will not end in June next year. It is sometimes assumed that after that date we shall somehow have no continuing involvement or responsibility, but that could not be further from the truth. We are building our consulate general there, which will be one of our largest anywhere in the world—much larger than many of our embassies in other parts of the world. That reflects the fact that we have billions of pounds' worth of assets in Hong Kong, and that our trade with Hong Kong is even greater than our trade with China. Hundreds of thousands of people there will continue to hold British passports. Most important, we shall continue to have an ethical responsibility to help the people of Hong Kong when problems arise, as they undoubtedly will in the years to come.

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  I must express my concern at the reported remarks by the Chinese Foreign Minister about freedom of speech and freedom of assembly in Hong Kong after the handover. Freedom of the press and freedom of assembly are guaranteed by the joint declaration and by the Basic Law. No mention has been made of the restrictions suggested by the Chinese Foreign Minister in his reported remarks. We have urged the Chinese Government at the highest level to clarify the remarks, as it is important that they should reassure the people of Hong Kong in this sensitive area.
  Another key issue is whether a provisional legislature should be created. We have made it clear to the Chinese Government that there is no justification for establishing such a provisional legislature and that the members of the Legislative Council should be allowed to serve their natural four-year term of office. China must show that Hong Kong will be run by the people of Hong Kong, and that can be achieved only if the legislature comprises those who have been freely and openly elected by the people of Hong Kong. Neither the joint declaration nor the Basic Law makes mention of a provisional legislature, and China must explain how any such arrangement would be compatible with either. The establishment of a provisional legislature would seriously call into question the commitments made in the joint declaration. The House has heard that we will have a debate on Hong Kong later this year, and that is all I wish to say on that subject at present.
  I now turn briefly to the important issue of Cyprus and the future of that divided island. The recent violence has shown how fragile the peace has been recently. We have a great interest in the future. of Cyprus. We are one of the guarantor powers, and we have the sovereign base areas on the island. This country is home to more than 250,000 Cypriots. A political settlement next year would be enormously important to Cyprus and to Europe, and there ought to be better prospects for such a settlement than there have been for some time. Cyprus wants to join the European Union, and that will be much easier if it is a united island. It would be extraordinarily difficult to incorporate a divided island into the EU, and that point is increasingly understood.
  I recently appointed Sir David Hannay as the British special representative in Cyprus. I did that not because we intend to have a separate British initiative, but because it is important that Britain, the United States and the EU work closely together to make the maximum contribution. I plan to visit Cyprus before Christmas. That will be the first full-scale bilateral visit to Cyprus by a Foreign Secretary since independence in 1960 as, until now, it has been thought inappropriate for such a visit to take place. I look forward to meeting President Klerides in Nicosia, and Mr. Rauf Denktas in his capacity as leader of the Turkish Cypriot community. We will do our best to work with others towards a settlement of the dispute.
  I wish to comment on recent allegations about our relations with Argentina and on the recent speculation on the arms embargo. The Government have from time to time considered the partial relaxation of the arms embargo, and we have recognised that some relaxation could take place. However, we have concluded that the time is not yet right. If we decide to implement any relaxation of the embargo, there will of course be an announcement to Parliament. The allegation that the Department of Trade and Industry's advice to Rolls-Royce in June 1995 reflected any change in the arms embargo or was linked in some way to the oil agreement is absurd and has no foundation. I am happy to clarify that point.
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  I wish to comment briefly on Bosnia. The House will be aware that a peace implementation conference will be held in London in early December. We are all conscious of the great success of the implementation force—IFOR—operation, but the mandate of that force comes to an end later this year. Nor is the civilian reconstruction work at an end.
  The main thrust of our policy as we approach the London conference should be to develop the concept of a contractual relationship between the international community and the various parties in Bosnia. We must impress on them that, if they wish to continue to receive military support and economic help, it is necessary for there to be a clearer understanding of the measures that they will take to rebuild their countries, to restore the dialogue between the Bosnian Government and the Bosnian Serbs and to help to reconstruct a single Bosnia-Herzegovina. The international community cannot be expected to stay in Bosnia indefinitely, and the operation must continue on the basis of a clear understanding of our priorities and the conditions that have been accepted by the countries concerned.
  The middle east peace process is the final area to which wish to refer. It, too, is an area that has given rise to enormous concern. We were all full of euphoria until a few months ago, but in recent times the situation has become very grave. I shall be in Israel and certain other countries of the middle east in a couple of weeks and I do not intend to launch some separate dramatic initiative. I believe that the proper role for the international community is to speak with a single voice. The future of the peace process will depend on the Israelis and the Palestinians, not on any other country. It is for them, if at all possible, to enter into real dialogue and to make substantive progress on the outstanding issues. I believe that the United States, United Kingdom and France are the three countries of the international community that can most influence the outcome, but I believe that the way in which that can be properly taken forward is by close co-ordination of the international community and by putting forward our maximum contribution to assisting those working for peace.
  The first step that we would like to see is, of course, agreement on Hebron. It is being negotiated at the present time, but it has not yet been fully concluded. I believe that, if there is an agreement on Hebron, it will not be the end of the road. It will not be the final statement on the matter. It will not itself have revived the peace process, because other undertakings have already been given which still have to be fully complied with. I am most worried at this precise moment about the situation in Gaza, where I believe the international relief organisations, including the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, are not able to carry out their full responsibilities and are not getting the co-operation, both on access to the area and on the work that they are doing, to which they are entitled. It will be important to urge the Israeli authorities to reconsider some of the restrictions and controls. Any restrictions that are not legitimate on the ground of security should not be there. I believe that the security need can sometimes be exaggerated and used to try to justify controls and restrictions that are unacceptable and are causing grave suffering. It is necessary to work for progress in that area, and that is what we shall seek to do.
  I have mentioned that there are four pillars to British foreign policy: the partnership of nations for our European policy; the transatlantic relationship; the Commonwealth

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  and English-speaking world; and the growth of global free trade. That gives Britain a unique role in the world, not as an empire but as a medium-sized power with global influence. I believe that Britain's interests coincide with the interests of the world community as a whole.
  There are three particular interests to which I shall refer. The obvious one of peace throughout the world is something with which we identify, as does every other civilised country. Secondly, there is prosperity, which can best be achieved through free trade and through the growth of liberal capitalism, which is increasingly becoming the universal philosophy of the modern world. Thirdly, there is global respect for personal liberty and for the rule of law. It is in the area of personal liberty and the rule of law that the United Kingdom also has a particular contribution to make, because those qualities have existed and flourished in this country probably for longer than in any other country.
  Those are the objectives of our foreign policy. I commend them to the House.
  3.48 pm
  Mr. Robin Cook: Yesterday, the Prime Minister set the House a sterling example of bipartisanship when he went for what appeared to be an impromptu expansion of the Gracious Speech and included two measures that had been left out only because, apparently, the Government were in doubt whether Labour would support them. I am touched by the vision of the Government going through the measures in the Queen's Speech, working out whether Labour would support them and leaving out those that they felt we might not support.
  I am also inspired by the bipartisan approach that the Prime Minister showed yesterday, so, to try to build as much common ground as I can with the Secretary of State, I shall at the outset of my speech focus on the areas where we agree—before relaxing into the disagreement with which both he and I are more comfortable.
  I should like to respond to the Secretary of State's opening remarks about the international world that we now inhabit. There has never been an era in which international affairs were more intimately related to the domestic agenda, or a greater need for us to debate them coolly and rationally as part of those issues that concern us in our domestic society.
  Our economy depends on our success in getting access for our trade in a global marketplace. Our environment will survive only if we get agreement on control of the global climate. Our security depends critically on the agreements that we can make on global weapons that have an intercontinental reach and a massive capacity for destruction.
  Whether other countries have Governments who measure up to acceptable and responsible standards of behaviour is no longer a matter only for the populations of those countries, but may be of immediate and direct relevance to us. As a result of the collapse of central authority in Afghanistan, 80 per cent. of the heroin reaching the streets of London comes from that country. The present vacuum in the leadership of Russia has led to strikes over unpaid wages in nuclear power stations, which could have severe consequences for our country and for the rest of Europe.
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  We are all members of the world community. We all have a clear interest in ensuring that the international institutions that police and support the world community are in working order. I thoroughly agree with the sentiments expressed by the Foreign Secretary in his opening remarks. If we are serious, we must follow through the logic of those sentiments in the conduct of some of our policies.
  During the Foreign Secretary's speech, we heard some interesting interventions on fundamentalism and terrorism, on migration, and on the environmental threat to the global climate. Those three major threats to the order of the international community have a common root in poverty. If we want to encourage the residents of poor countries to stay there and not to embark on migration, we must give them the hope of development within their own countries. If we want to protect the global climate against development in the third world, particularly in tropical countries—which, in turn, threatens our own climate—we must provide those countries with the means to achieve sustainable development so that they can protect their environments.
  I put it to the Foreign Secretary that if he is concerned about the rise of fundamentalism, the increase in migration and the environmental threat, it is odd that the consistent trend of the Government's conduct on overseas aid has been repeatedly to cut the aid budget. Overseas aid is now only 0.29 per cent. of our gross domestic product. We are apparently about to receive a report from the National Audit Office which spells out that, at the very time when the aid budget has been decreasing, the proportion given in support of British trade—rather than for the relief of poverty—has been increasing.
  Another consequence for policy arising from these considerations relates to the United Nations. Too often, United Nations institutions, such as the World bank, have pursued structural adjustment policies that were the exact opposite of the development policies required to tackle poverty. That is why many of us want a reform of the United Nations that gives at least as much weight to the Economic and Social Council as it gives to the Security Council.
  In the past two decades, the world has undertaken many days of negotiations and spent many millions of pounds trying to contain conflicts after they have erupted. Those conflicts could have been resolved with less effort and much more cheaply had we first tackled the poverty that bred them.
  Mr. Nigel Evans rose
  Mr. David Howell rose
  Mr. Cook: I shall give way to the right hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. Howell).
  Mr. Howell: I was interested to hear the right hon. Gentleman's remarks about overseas aid. Private direct investment in developing countries, including some of the poorest countries of Africa, is running at $380 billion, which is about 20 times the total amount for overseas aid and technical assistance. We recognise the value of technical assistance, but do we have the right hon. Gentleman's support for further encouragement of private

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  investment as the engine of development, rather than reliance on the old business of cash-to-cash aid from Government to Government?
  Mr. Cook: The right hon. Gentleman has no problem with our support for private direct investment, which provides the technological transfer that is so important. If he speaks to those who are in government in those countries, he will be told that although the private direct investment is welcome, it is no substitute for public sector aid. First, direct investment goes overwhelmingly to the urban population, not to the rural poor. Secondly, direct investment will come only on the back of infrastructure development, which is possible only with official direct aid.
  Mr. Evans: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Cook: No, I should like to proceed for a moment.
  I was rather struck by the fact that, on the birthday of the United Nations, the Foreign Secretary's only reference to that organisation was in response to an intervention by me. I had hoped that this would be an appropriate debate on an appropriate day to extend the Government's best wishes to the United Nations by announcing that Britain intends to join UNESCO once again and take up its place in that organisation. If we are genuinely concerned about the complex nature of the world and the rise in fundamentalism, what are we doing staying out of the one international body that is committed to promoting cultural understanding and co-existence?
  It would be pleasing to think that the importance of these international issues and their immediate relevance to a domestic agenda explains the fact that half the text of the Gracious Speech is about foreign affairs, but I rather suspect that it has more to do with the meagre menu of domestic measures proposed by the Government. Given their problems with the political situation at home, it is probably wise for them to talk as much as possible about the political situation abroad.
  The next 12 months will certainly be rich and busy in foreign policy. Many fascinating and important events that will appear on the world stage are reflected in the Gracious Speech. They include the transfer of Hong Kong, the forthcoming summit on NATO enlargement and the Commonwealth Heads of Government conference in October. Common to all those events is the fact that they address serious issues in international relations. They also offer challenges and opportunities for British diplomacy and will take place under the next Government, not the present one. I say that with increased confidence after the Prime Minister's broadcast to the nation this morning in which he said that the general election will be held no later than 1 May. We would welcome it earlier if it were possible to arrange that, but International Labour Day is an excellent date for this Government's day of reckoning.
  Meantime, the House is in the odd position of being invited to debate the Government's policies on events in world affairs which will not occur until, mercifully, we have an opportunity to be rid of them. The first example is the transfer of Hong Kong, which will take place on 30 June. By 1 May, if that is the date of the general election, every detail of the transfer will have been buttoned down. The hour of sunset at which the British flag is to be lowered will have been settled. The lament
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  by a lone piper will have been chosen by then and, in relation to the transfer, there will be nothing left for an incoming Government to resolve. The present Government will have to accept responsibility for the terms of transfer that they have negotiated and agreed.
  I welcome the fact that the Government have responded to our pressure for a debate on Hong Kong. The Foreign Secretary will be aware that it is more than a year since we last debated Hong Kong and that in less than a year Hong Kong will be transferred. I shall develop our concerns at greater length in that debate, but I take this opportunity to echo the concern that the Foreign Secretary expressed about the interview of Qing Qichen in The Asian Wall Street Journal. In that interview, he expressed the view that the freedom of expression of the people of Hong Kong will not extend to criticism of Chinese Government leaders and that the right to demonstrate will not extend to the right to commemorate the Tiananmen square massacre. Moreover, those constraints on their rights will be maintained whatever is said in the Basic Law.
  The interview gives rise to two serious areas of concern. There is the immediate concern that it suggests an understanding that the political freedoms of the people of Hong Kong after the transfer will be much more restricted than anything that has been envisaged so far, but it also gives rise to wider concern in that it reveals an alarming belief that the state can override legal rights. Were the conduct of the People's Republic of China after transfer to reflect those comments, it would be bad for Hong Kong, because it would be denied democratic rights, and for China, because it would reinforce its image as a country that has difficulty coming to terms with democratic principles and democratic words. It would also, however, be bad for Britain because it would reveal us as having left Hong Kong without an agreement that could keep in place open and democratic systems after our departure.
  I shall pick up on what the Foreign Secretary said about Cyprus. Again, I find myself 90 per cent. in agreement with him. I agree that it is important for the negotiations on Cyprus's accession to the European Union that the dispute over the island be resolved. I think that the Foreign Secretary's exact words were that accession would be "much easier", but there can be no agreement over the division of Cyprus without the agreement of Turkey, and Turkey does not want Cyprus to succeed in its application to join the EU. I therefore put it to him strongly that, while we should work for an early resolution of the dispute over the island, we must be careful that we concede no Turkish veto over Cyprus's right to apply to, or to be admitted to, the EU.
  I shall refer to two other foreign affairs issues before moving on to the semi-domestic debate on European issues. The first is the stalemate in the middle east peace process. The Oslo agreements provided an historic opportunity for reconciliation in the middle east after two bitter generations of conflict. We must not let that opportunity be lost. Sadly, the crack of the revolver that shot Yitzhak Rabin a year ago this month still reverberates throughout the middle east.
  I wish to be clear with the House, which is entitled to assert this: the majority of electors in Israel did not vote to reduce the peace process to an impasse. Israel's Prime Minister was elected by a narrow majority on a commitment to "peace with security". The Israeli people

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  voted for security, but they also wanted peace because they knew that, without peace, there would be no security. If there is no progress in the peace process, we may be left with no process either. If my comments differ, therefore, from the Israeli Government's position, it is not that I am critical of the Israeli people, many of whom share the points that I am about to make.
  The first and urgent priority must be to restore momentum to the peace process. Two qualities are required if it is to resume successfully. The first is that we must restore trust on both sides. Both sides must be confident that the other will deliver on the commitments that it gave in Oslo. I strongly endorse the Foreign Secretary's invitation to the Israeli Government to proceed with the withdrawal from Hebron, which is three months overdue and was agreed by the previous Government.
  The second quality is hope that peace will bring an improvement in the quality of life on both sides of the divide. A fortnight before the tragic killings, I visited both Israel and the Palestinian authority. I was shocked by the subsequent violence, but I was not surprised that things in the Palestinian region boiled over.
  Last year, when the Foreign Secretary addressed the House, he said that there had been substantial economic progress in the Palestinian region. I am sorry to report that that is not now the case. Unfortunately, for most Palestinians, the past year of the peace process has been associated with a reduction in the standard of life. Tens of thousands have lost their jobs as a result of the closure of the border. Restoring freedom of movement into and out of Israel, or even safe passage between different parts of the Palestinian authority, would be the most convincing way that the Government of Israel could demonstrate their commitment to the peace process and that that process will lead to an improvement in the quality of life for the Palestinian people.
  Mr. Winnick: Is my right hon. Friend aware that people who adopt the attitude that Israel has as much right to exist as any other country will be encouraged in the main by his remarks? The best service that the pro-Israelis can do now is to speak up, as my right hon. Friend is doing, for common sense and against the extremists in Israel—who, I hope, do not represent the views of the vast majority of Israeli people. At the end of the day, there must be a Palestinian state as well as Israel.
  Mr. Cook: I believe that it is entirely possible for us to speak as friends both of Israel and of the Palestinian people.
  We have a direct interest in the settlement of that issue. While I was in Israel, I happened to bump into Lord Archer, who I understand was scouring the country for votes for the Conservative party—an entirely legitimate activity. I spent one evening addressing a meeting of people who were minded to vote for the Labour party in this country. We handed out 350 forms, of which more than 300 have been completed and returned by people anxious to vote for a Labour Government in Britain. That is a demonstration of the historic, cultural and community ties between our nations. If those ties give us the right to canvass votes, they also confer on us the responsibility to
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  give friendly support in getting the peace process back on the road with—yes—the objective of peace with security for Israel, but with the recognition that that can be secured only on the basis of peace with justice for the Palestinians.
  Before I turn to matters that divide the House, I shall respond to the Foreign Secretary's observations on Bosnia. We are one year on from Dayton. The House can take satisfaction at the implementation of the military side of the peace agreement. I salute the dedication, patience and professionalism of British troops participating in the implementation force and their role in achieving its objectives.
  One year on from Dayton is a fair period to suggest that an explanation is owed by the commentators and politicians who claimed that a more robust approach to ending the war in Bosnia was impossible because the casualties would be too high and too many troops would be required. Since the NATO intervention that made possible the Dayton agreement, there have been fewer casualties among the international forces than in the preceding years, when they acted only as peacekeepers.
  The implementation force has one major remaining task, which must be carried out if civilian and political reconstruction is to succeed. The war criminals still at large must be brought to book. It is difficult to comprehend why it is thought so impossible to achieve that objective. IFOR states that if it comes across Mr. Karadzic, he will be arrested. Pale is not such a big town—it is smaller than most traditional market towns in Britain. It is difficult to believe that it was not possible at some time during the past year to bump into Mr. Karadzic.
  There is the real danger, as Carl Bildt pointed out that month, that the policy of arresting Mr. Karadzic if he is found is becoming a non-policy. The risk for Bosnia is that there can be no reconciliation in that country unless it is true that there is no immunity for war crimes. That principle extends wider than Bosnia. If the persons who committed atrocities in Bosnia are allowed to get away with them, the next time there is a similar civil conflict, that message will be absorbed by the individuals who give the orders in that conflict.
  I think that I have managed to carry most hon. Members with me so far, and it is plainly time to inject a note of normal debate. I began by stressing the continuity of domestic concerns and global issues. In the modern world, nations are more interdependent than independent, and co-operation and partnership are not just desirable but essential to the quality of life of our people.
  A central feature of foreign affairs debates in the House has been the increasingly strident demand on the Government to be as rude as possible to our immediate European neighbours. That is un unpromising platform from which to begin to achieve contact with the rest of the globe. The past year has seen the expression of the view that Britain should withdraw from Europe move from the fringes of the Conservative party to its main stream. In the past six months, the former Chancellor, the former Chief Secretary and even the present Chief Secretary have all, in various ways, suggested that withdrawal from the European Union might be practical. Not one of them was rebuked within 24 hours by the Minister of State, the Foreign Office's baronet in residence, appearing on "The World at One" telling them that they were out of line. I have to say that I would have

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  more sympathy if he were to do that to his colleagues who urge upon the Government a course of action which would plainly be disastrous for Britain's foreign relations.
  I must say to Conservative Members who have in the past year expressed views about detaching Britain from Europe that they are in danger of believing their own speeches and falling for the myths that they peddle. Hon. Members may shake their heads, but three years ago I was one of the shadows of the hon. Member for Tatton (Mr. Hamilton), who has been much in the news lately. It was a humble if not humbling role.
  I remember the hon. Gentleman addressing the Conservative party conference. He told that conference that the caramel directive of the European Union took 12,000 words whereas it took only 200 words to put together the Lord's prayer. I was impressed by the comparison and telephoned the European Union movement to ask if it could help me trace the caramel directive. A weary spokesman told me that there was no caramel directive and that that line had begun as an after-dinner joke by Sir John Banham some two years previously in Brussels. I telephoned the Minister's office and asked whether they were aware that the caramel directive did not exist. I received a weary reply from a spokesman in the Minister's office, who said that they were aware that the Minister was wrong about the caramel directive but that he was right about the length of Lord's prayer. I fear that that quality of research lies behind some of the knee-jerk anti-Europeanism to which we have been subjected during the past three years.
  I know that the Foreign Secretary does not share those views, although he sometimes finds it convenient not to admit to that. There is a curious omission in his section of the Gracious Speech. The really big thing that is due to happen in Foreign Affairs in the next 12 months is that on 1 July next year Britain will enter the troika of the European Union and on 1 January 1998 it will become the President of the European Union. That is not referred to anywhere in the Gracious Speech, but it is likely to be the issue that will most preoccupy the Foreign Office—[Interruption.] None of the issues in the foreign affairs section of the Gracious Speech requires legislation.
  I understand why the presidency of the EU is not mentioned. If we want to accept that role, we have to accept the role of leadership at the top of the table, not heckling from the bottom. We have to accept the objective of seeking out the point of consensus in the European Union, not constantly priding ourselves on being the odd one out. Finding themselves with that opportunity and the challenge of being President of the European Union would be as big an embarrassment to the Government as to the rest of Europe.
  I read repeatedly in the newspapers that, from now until the general election, the role of Europe in the Conservative election strategy will be to provide an opportunity to demonstrate strength through confrontation. We have been here before. Earlier this year, the Government displayed confrontation with Europe on heroic technicolor panavision scale in the war over British beef, which the Foreign Secretary very diplomatically and delicately did not mention once in his review of world affairs. We demonstrated our strength by a policy of serial vetoing, which, I understand, the Foreign Secretary thought up, called the policy of non-co-operation in Europe or—as I have discovered it was known to his officials—PONCE.
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  It may now be an appropriate time to ask, what good did PONCE do? It did not do the Conservative party much good; successive opinion polls established that the public were less, not more, likely to vote Conservative as a result of PONCE. The reason is simple. The public knew that the BSE crisis was made in Britain by a Government who had failed to provide the regulations that would keep BSE out of foodstuffs.
  Dr. David Clark: Indeed weakened the proposed regulations.
  Mr. Cook: As my hon. Friend corrects me, the Government weakened those regulations. After BSE appeared, they denied that there was a significant risk of its transmission to humans—a denial that looks doubly irresponsible in the face of today's heavy scientific evidence, which shows that that was a virtually certain transmission. The public knew that the stage-managed war with Brussels was another case of BSE—blame someone else.
  The beef war not only did no good to the Conservative party, it did no good to farmers, as they loudly reminded us yesterday.
  The beef war ended in the Florence agreement, hailed by the Foreign Secretary as a turning point. I understand why mention of the Florence agreement buries him in his briefing papers. I shall quote to the House what the Prime Minister said when he reported on the Florence agreement:
  "We aim to be in a position to tell the Commission by October that we have met the necessary conditions for decisions to lift the ban on two of the five stages—that is, certified herds and animals born after a specified date".—[Official Report, 24 June 1996; Vol. 280, c. 21.]
  By October. I think I will carry the House with me on a bipartisan approach to the fact that this is the month of October, that there are seven days left and that not one hon. Member believes that, by next Thursday, those two of the five stages of the ban will have been lifted. The main reason why they will not be lifted is that the Government, having hailed the Florence agreement as a triumph, chose not to implement their side of the bargain.
  The House must ask some questions. What is the Government strategy for getting the export ban lifted? What will we now do to ensure that the continentals honour the Florence agreement, now that we have not honoured our side of the bargain? If we have written off the Florence agreement, what will we do instead? Most of all, surely we are now entitled to ask: what was the beef war fought for? Why did we take on the whole of Europe to achieve nothing?
  I am bound to say that all previous Governments had the wisdom not to wage war with France and Germany at the same time. All previous Governments, even Conservative ones, ensured that, in any previous war, one or other was on our side. They sought to turn the balance of power on the continent to British advantage. Only the Government have fashioned a foreign policy that takes on the whole of Europe at the same time.
  That approach has met with incomprehension in the rest of Europe. It was well expressed by the Foreign Secretary's immediate predecessor, the right hon. Member for Witney (Mr. Hurd), who has retired to the Back

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  Benches but continues to take an interest in such affairs. At the time of the beef war, he wrote:
  "In the past few weeks, I have listened to Danish, Irish, French and Dutch friends of Britain. They do not see anything heroic about our present debate. They look on us rather as an elderly and respected relative suffering from a spasm in the corner of the room. They cannot do much to help us; they hope that the fit will pass before we do ourselves too much harm."
  The clear lesson of the past three or four years is that the repeated confrontation with Europe—the fits and spasms referred to by the Foreign Secretary's predecessor—will pass only when the Government pass.
  I should like to share with the Foreign Secretary my total agreement with the priorities he attributed to Labour's policy towards Europe. Yes, we will sign up to the social chapter. Is he aware that three dozen of the biggest and most efficient British companies have already signed up to the social chapter by implementing works council agreements? In doing so, they have said that having an agreement with their work force on the future strategy of their company is an aid, not a barrier, to competitiveness.
  Yes, Labour has allies in Europe in the party of European Socialists—three of whom were kind enough to send messages of good will to our party conference. We offer Britain a Government who will have the respect, not the contempt, of the Governments of the other member states of Europe.
  Yes, jobs will be at the top of our agenda and our bottom line—the alpha to omega of our European policy. I should mention one of the other spheres in which the Government are becoming isolated. I understand that the Government intend to persist in blocking an employment chapter in the treaty of union when they go to the Dublin summit and intergovernmental conference.
  What possible national interest does Britain have in blocking the promotion of employment becoming an objective of the European Union? The Maastricht treaty, after all, sets out precise, tight objectives on Government spending, public debt and inflation. The Government did not object to those objectives being written into the treaty of European Union. A fortnight ago, I saw the Prime Minister on television taking credit for drafting those objectives. I suspect that the rest of Europe are now willing to let him have that credit, given that the period in which they have been aspiring to those objectives has coincided with lower growth and higher unemployment in their economies. That is why, across Europe, there is now growing support to balance those financial objectives with a commitment to employment.
  In their time in office, the Government have promoted a dramatic shift in the nature of work. When they came to power, 60 per cent. of the work force were in full-time permanent jobs. This year, 60 per cent. of the work force are in temporary, short-term or casual forms of employment. Job insecurity is the barrier to the feel-good factor for which the Government are searching.
  Against that background, I should tell Ministers that we will be delighted to take them on in a general election which they fight on the basis of their commitment to stop the European Union promoting stable employment. The fact that they will go to Dublin to fulfil that commitment demonstrates exactly how out of touch they are with the
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  public's real worries. The people want a Government who do not delight in posturing over the fact that they refuse to agree with the rest of Europe. The public want a Government who can do business with Europe and get deals done in Europe.
  The public do not want a Government who regard with fear the other member states as threats, but a Government who recognise those states as neighbours with whom we share common problems and must share common solutions. They want a Government who do not constantly block any measure to improve social conditions, and are determined to provide the people of Britain with the same rights at work as the rest of Europe—not with the worst rights in Europe.
  The public want a Government who believe sovereignty rests with the people. They want a Government who understand that the real threat to the freedoms, rights and liberties of the British people is not from Brussels but from the ever increasing power that the Government are centralising in Whitehall. The people want a Government who will practise real subsidiarity, devolving power back to the regions and local communities of Britain. A Labour Government offer that.
  If Conservative Members want a general election fought on the European issue, fine, we are ready for it—and we are confident that we can win it. We know that Conservative Members are not confident that they can. If they thought that they could win, instead of this half attempt at half a parliamentary Session, we would now be having a general election.
  A general election is the one measure that the Government could announce that would command real popularity. It is the one step that would restore a feel-good factor and give to the people the hope of the fresh start that Britain now needs in Europe.
  4.24 pm
  Mr. David Howell: I welcome the fact that we are debating foreign policy today and that the subject has not been relegated to Friday, which has been the practice in recent years. That is confirmation of the point made by the right hon. Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook), that never before have domestic issues been so intimately interwoven with foreign policy issues, in every area, from jobs to home loan rates and our entire way of life.
  I begin with the first paragraph of the Gracious Speech, which outlines some of Her Majesty's involvements with countries round the world in the coming year: Brazil, Thailand, India, Canada, Pakistan and Israel are mentioned. My right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary is shortly to go to Israel, and I hope that he has better luck—I am sure that he will—than the President of France, who recently experienced some difficulties there.
  I pick the first paragraph because it reminds us—and we need reminding, especially when we consider the main preoccupations of the speech that we have just heard—that there is a wider world, and that foreign policy is not only about Europe and its problems—although of course we have to set those right. It is the mission of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, of its Ministers and of my right hon. and learned Friend, as he said in his excellent speech,
  "to promote and protect British interests and influence."

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  To do that, we need to look beyond Europe and beyond the niceties of the European debate, which has, unfortunately, dominated our discussions so far this afternoon.
  The Financial Times estimates—it is just a shot in the dark, but it is probably not too far out—that by 2003, only seven years away, the emerging markets such as Latin America, south-east Asia, Africa, central Asia and the Pacific rim will have a larger output than all the so-called advanced industrial countries put together. That is the most important reality of all. My right hon. and learned Friend grasped that fully in his excellent survey of the future.
  The Select Committee on Foreign Affairs—when it has not been bogged down like everyone else in endless issues arising from the European Union and in the latest ideas, some of them hair-raising, flying around from the intergovernmental conference—has tried to point out in its reports that the wider world and its markets should be the main focus of this country's interests and foreign policy over the next 10 years. That is why we drew up a report on the Commonwealth, trying to point out that it is not merely an old club of people who are fond of criticising the former metropolitan power, but a new and vibrant network of some of the fastest-growing markets of the modern world. Our interests, exports and skills will be especially suitable for those markets and that gives us a huge advantage over other countries. The Select Committee is also preparing as quickly as possible a report on Latin America, another vast area in which there was tremendously close British involvement in the past.
  It is not only a matter of considering foreign policy in terms of geographical areas. It will continue to be important to consider the promotion and protection of our interests and influence in terms of the networks—rather than continental or regional blocs—into which the world is increasingly being organised. The second or third largest of those networks is south-east Asia, run by the large group of overseas Chinese who operate a borderless economy that spans Kuala Lumpur, Bangkok, Jakarta, Australasia, Hong Kong and Singapore. That is probably one of the world's biggest economies and it is a network into which we have to link. We fail to do so at our cost.
  Mercosur in Latin America already accounts for 7 per cent. of the planet's gross national product, and will grow very fast—faster, I suspect, than the more mature economies of western Europe. We should also bear in mind the Association of South-East Asian Nations, the Asia-Pacific Economic Co-operation grouping and all our friends in east and central Europe, to which my right hon. and learned Friend rightly referred. They are now beginning to adjust to the market economy and are very anxious to develop links with Britain. When the British travel in those parts of the world, too often one hears the remark, "Where have you been?"
  Some fascinating new groupings that are emerging may become more important for money, jobs and exports than our immediate continental neighbours. Such countries include the Black sea grouping and the Ukraine, which my right hon. and learned Friend rightly mentioned, as well as the new countries of central Asia, which lie beyond that—once parts of what he rightly says we must not keep referring to as the former Soviet Union.
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  All those countries are alive with prospects. They have vast reserves of raw materials. The centre of gravity of the oil industry is moving back to where it started from in the Caspian sea and the central Asian region, changing the face of geopolitics.
  As my right hon. and learned Friend set out, with his four pillars, our foreign policy must take account of a totally new pattern of interests, which we have to protect and promote. The key elements—the most visible part—are investment and capital flows. Those, not trade, are the gigantic forces of the world international system. Trade follows capital flows, induced by the huge capital investments flowing into the developing countries and rapidly making those markets emerge and mature fully.
  Some politicians are slow to perceive what is happening, which is that some so-called emerging countries are leapfrogging the so-called developed countries, not just in investment and infrastructure, but in social structures. Systems of social security and genuine welfare support are developing based on the private sector and private pension schemes, marrying the state obligation with private finance to deliver higher standards of social security and welfare as well as higher general standards of living. Some Latin American countries provide good examples, Chile being the most telling. Chile generates enormous private pension funds, producing secure pensions for its citizens and such great savings that a supposedly developing country—indeed, a few years ago it was bankrupt, with hyper-inflation under a military regime—is now a major exporter of capital. It can save all that it wants for all its infrastructure and still export capital.
  Our foreign policy thinking must adjust to that speed of events. The world is completely different from the one that we were thinking about 10 years ago, the heyday of believing that western Europe—and the European Union—was, in the short-cut and unthinking language of American management, "the only game in town". That era has passed.
  To protect and promote our interests, we must catch hold of certain developments that did not exist before. One is the concept of overseas production. The Japanese talk of their overseas production, but no such concept exists in British statistics and one never hears it mentioned in policy discussion. It means the output of the vast amount of British-owned investment around the world. We are in the big league of the world's super-investors. From factories operated, owned and located by British interests flows a vast amount of production, which does not show up in the trade figures. That shows the absurdity of making judgments about the importance of bilateral relations on the basis of the trade figures.
  The evidence is that an increasing proportion of the production emerging from British-invested and owned plants, factories, services and operations around the world is generating a huge income and represents an important part of our national interest. Sixty per cent. of our visible and invisible earnings—which are themselves dated and meaningless concepts—comes from outside western Europe. While recognising fully the importance of our own back yard in Europe, we should note that the greater proportion of our income comes from outside the European Union.
  Our trade and business has changed. It no longer comprises products and manufactures, but comprises knowledge-intensive, service-intensive operations—

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  products with a huge information content. Our maligned but highly efficient financial services, in which I declare a personal interest, have become one of the dominating forces in our export effort. If we are concerned with the promotion and protection of our interests and influence, we should ensure that those financial services are operated successfully and allowed to trade round the world on an even bigger scale.
  London is already the centre of the world's capital-raising system. I know that my right hon. and learned Friend understands that it is completely in our interests to ensure that the wealth-creating machine that has developed in the past 10 years and has provided security for billions of pounds' worth of infrastructure assets in the developing countries—a point that the right hon. Member for Livingston fails to understand—operates successfully.
  It is also enormously important to promote cultural diplomacy, commercial door-opening, opportunity-seizing and the general encouragement of Britain-friendly attitudes that are the backdrop to successful investment and capital flow. I shall return to that point in a moment, as I am not sure whether we are putting enough muscle behind that effort yet, although I know it is my right hon. and learned Friend's intention.
  As my right hon. and learned Friend rightly said, our island has two huge advantages in this new world, with new trade patterns and new systems creating a change in the centre of gravity of the entire planet and a shift in favour of the so-called former developing countries—many of which have now developed.
  As we said in the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and as my right hon. and learned Friend fully recognised, we have the Commonwealth network. It is transregional and not just another bloc. It is a most amazing network and does not always work in our favour, but as my right hon. and learned Friend rightly says, it is bound together largely by the English language, a common business culture and a heartwarming pro-British sentiment.
  Britain left behind an empire, yet got a good word from most of our former colonies. We are now welcome not only in Commonwealth countries, but in Latin America where there are enormous pro-British ties, a longing for the British to return in force—as some of our businesses are now doing—and almost an obsession with learning English and seeking to promote ties with the British culture. It is an enormous business. An estimated 1 billion people throughout the world are either learning or seeking to learn English—with an English accent. That does not mean that business comes our way automatically, but it provides a fabulous basis for the export of our services, technology and information methods.
  Mr. Michael Fabricant (Mid-Staffordshire): Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is not only the English language that binds us, but English law? Does he further agree that it is no coincidence that Britain is the largest foreign investor in the United States and that, similarly, the United States is the largest single investor in the United Kingdom? English law makes it easy for the United Kingdom, the United States and Commonwealth countries to conduct international trade.
  Mr. Howell: I should even cap what my hon. Friend says. Such links are a question of not only common
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  understanding about the systems of law but the amazing network of common understanding about a vast range of professions—architecture, accountancy, medical professions of every kind and scientific research. It is a fantastic network.
  When the Foreign Affairs Committee sought to study all such things, it was surprised—perhaps other hon. Members were not—that as it lifted the lid on the Commonwealth, which has not been a very popular concept in this country for the past 20 years, it found a huge range of non-governmental contacts and links all over the globe that are flourishing and growing even faster today as new countries queue to join it. If new members are crowding in to join the Commonwealth, so much for the view that it is a dying concept. That is the background against which my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary rightly set out his pillars of foreign policy development.
  One would expect from what my right hon. and learned Friend said—I know that this is the way in which his mind is working—that a large part of the emphasis of our resources and effort in external policy would switch towards every kind of scholastic, cultural and commercial contact, to encourage the flow of investment, the use of the Commonwealth network to which I have referred, and the promotion of English language teaching and vast local operations such as the Cultura groups in Brazil and Argentina, which are huge communities devoted entirely to the promotion of the English language and English culture. The question that must be asked is how much we are getting all that in focus at the moment and whether we could not sharpen that focus somewhat.
  I must come to some awkward figures, which at the moment do not quite fit with the picture of the future that I am painting. First, in the diplomatic wing of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, within which there are many commercial posts and where effort is being mobilised to bring about the kind of world that I am describing, we find that the budget is being slashed. It is being reduced from this year's £1.4 billion to about £1 billion in 1998–99.
  On the cultural diplomacy front, where neighbouring countries are mounting huge efforts to create inducements to encourage capital flows and inward investment into the so-called developing—in fact, developed—world, where future markets will be, we find that the excellent BBC World Service is under considerable constraints. I know that my right hon. and learned Friend has rightly pointed out that the resources which go in that direction are still great, but we are talking about priorities, not marginal concerns in external policy.
  Through the British Council, the machinery can be set in motion in all the emerging market countries to establish the exchange of scholarships. They produce the additional desire for people to come to this country on paid educational visits as students, which is a colossal business and a vast export earner. We may criticise British education and may not have got it all right, but people want to come to this country for higher and specialist education. We can vastly encourage such visits through British Council work, yet many of its operations round the world run on a shoestring and are reduced to one or two people. Another pair of hands—I am not saying that more is always better—could generate vast additional business.

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  We find that added value in terms of prosperity and jobs in this country is being constrained, which indicates to me that the Treasury has not quite got the message that I am trying to share with the House. If we want value added in the new conditions and operations of the global economic system and the kind of security that we all seek in such a system, it is no use just thinking about Europe, just spending a third of our diplomatic resources in western Europe—for that is where they go—or slashing at the diplomatic wing, the World Service and the British Council on some spurious doctrine that every poppy must he cut to the same height and that every area should take the same amount of cuts. That is not priority-making, but wild cutting, which does not make sense in terms of the foreign policy priorities that my right hon. and learned Friend has set out so clearly.
  One has to look at the overall external budget. I once heard my noble Friend Lord Howe, who was an extremely effective Foreign Secretary, say that the one thing that he regretted in his time was that he never had a chance to look at the overall external budgets of the United Kingdom, including defence, as well as, of course, the diplomatic wing, the World Service, the British Council and the Overseas Development Administration, and review the priorities on the basis of the whole canvas of our external spending.
  I see that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence is sitting on the Front Bench next to my tight hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary, who was a very distinguished Secretary of State for Defence himself. I know that their budgets are squeezed and that their ears are full of the cries of excellent soldiers, airmen and sailors, who are saying how difficult it is to conduct their new defence arrangements with a mere £21.4 billion and that they do not like being squeezed by the Treasury any more than anyone else. But I have to lay before them the lopsided oddity of our external budget. Although at one end of the budget there is £21.4 billion, the diplomatic wing is being cut and cut, and judging from all the rumours, is about to be cut still further in areas where a few extra pairs of hands could earn colossal added value for this country.
  My comments are not those of a Member of Parliament who has gone native about the Foreign Office. I am as critical as anybody of some of the policy activities of that Whitehall Department. But the National Audit Office put the argument succinctly when it said that every £1 spent in the commercial posts of British embassies in south-east Asia between 1993 and 1995—this is very precise— generated an extra £77 in earnings and business for Britain. For every £10 million, an extra £800 million is generated. That is very big added value; an enormous increment. We should be investing in it rather than cutting it back.
  As I said, I know that the defence side is under pressure. Yet, according to The Daily Telegraph, we are going to buy 232 Eurofighter aircraft for £16 billion, which works out at £68 million each. I know that the marginal costs will be less and I hope that that £68 million includes delivery, charges, number plates and after-sales service, but that is a lot of money. Although it may seem a facile comparison on a superficial level, underneath there is a serious point that, for the cost of just four of those aircraft at £68 million each, we could transform the budgets of this nation's commercial efforts, the position of the diplomatic wing and the power with which the BBC
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  World Service can spread the British cultural point of view round the world. The British Council could generate tens if not hundreds of millions of pounds in extra earnings from educational services and many other intellectual and knowledge services as well.
  Although I realise that such comments are not practical politics, could we please look at that overall balance in a way that ensures that we put the money where the earnings will be in future and we do not get too dominated by the problems of security, economics and politics in the European theatre?
  Diplomatic spending is running at half the French level and one third of the German level. When the Foreign Affairs Committee went to Latin America recently, we checked some figures and found that throughout Latin America, which is booming and moving into an era of massive export growth based on sound currency and open regionalism, the UK has 117 personnel in post, excluding locally hired personnel. Germany has 427 personnel there, France 384 and Italy 333. Even if half my analysis were right, such areas must be considered again. It is necessary to think in terms of some adjustments to the distribution of our scarce resources. Every pound must be fought for, as it is taxpayers' money and should not and cannot be freely spent.
  So what does one conclude? Of course it is right, and inevitable, that most of the debate will be about Europe, because the European Union questions must be settled. I believe that the wait-and-see policy on the single currency can be developed into a strong and sensible policy. Indeed, it is the only sensible policy. I am a pro-European, and to my mind that policy can be seen as part of supporting the further integration of Europe.
  The all-out political rush for the single currency is a dagger pointed at the heart of European unity. Nothing but division and difficulty will arise from the attempt to fabricate convergence on the basis of political will. My right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary made a superb speech at the Conservative party conference about the importance—and indeed, the sheer common sense as well as the constructive Europeanism—of waiting and seeing. I believe that he was right. That is exactly the policy that we should pursue.
  I hope, too, that we can be good Europeans concerning common interests in foreign policy, without being sucked into the federalist ambitions for a single foreign policy and a single institutional machine to run it. In the light of what I said earlier about the fact that all the growth is outside Europe, we simply cannot afford to be corralled into that narrow European regionalism. It is essential that we rebalance our external preoccupations. I make that point as much to the Opposition as to anyone else.
  We should also think in terms of rebalancing our scarce resources. Our resource effort should focus more on Asia, including the Indian sub-continent, where there is massive potential and marvellous good will, and huge markets are opening for the British. That effort should also concentrate on Latin America, which I have already mentioned, and on all our friends in eastern and central Europe, who are waiting for us.
  At home we should mirror that emphasis, with domestic policies designed to encourage, or at least to remove the obstacles from, the export industries of tomorrow, which are education, research, financial services, language teaching and audio-visual activities of every kind, in which we lead the world.

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  I believe that British potential is as excellent as it ever was. Yesterday the Leader of the Opposition, in a dismal speech, talked about the "fracturing" of Britain. He cannot have travelled in the places where the action is happening. If he did so, he would find that United Kingdom businesses and services are marching rapidly and successfully into those new markets.
  People see that Britain has falling unemployment and a sound currency, and that we have been through the difficulties of deregulation and modernisation—with much sweat and effort, and despite the total opposition of the Labour party at every point throughout the past 15 years—and have emerged as an extremely strong economy superbly positioned to take advantage of the new world that I have described.
  Business is leading the way, and those who think about foreign policy must fall into line. I believe that my right hon. and learned Friend thinks deeply and sees that way forward, but others—some, dare I say it, are around him, and certainly many are on the Opposition Benches—are dragging their feet and refuse to face the conditions of the modern world. I beg them to do so.
  4.52 pm
  Mr. Ernie Ross: I do not want to follow the right hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. Howell) down the path that he took. Instead I shall consider areas of foreign policy, some of which were mentioned in the Queen's Speech and some of which were not, and I shall try to draw some lessons for us to learn as we come to the fag end of this Government and think about the way in which they have run our foreign affairs.
  The Government have responded well in some areas, but like all other Governments they have failed to realise the need to continue that response. As a result, we see on our television screens and in the other media that the problems that we put off until tomorrow are revisiting us today.
  I shall start with Zaire. Initially the world community reacted speedily and positively to the genocide that broke out in central Africa in 1994. Then, as usually happens in complicated foreign affairs, tiredness set in—the tiredness of the international community in the face of constant streams of refugees throughout the world, in eastern Europe, in parts of Africa and elsewhere. The refugees excite and concern us all until they are safely settled in their refugee camps. We send blankets and various things that they need for clean water and food; then we hand them over to someone else and say that they are someone else's problem.
  Once a Government of sorts were established in Rwanda and the thousands of Hutu and Tutsi refugees were locked into the camps in adjoining countries, the situation was allowed to drift gradually off the agenda for most of us. I do not exclude the Opposition from those comments. We, too, allowed that to happen.
  In July, Human Rights Watch/Africa produced two worrying reports, the first of which was about eastern Zaire and Zairean complicity in forcing Tutsis out of eastern Zaire. The second was about Rwandan genocide and human rights abuses against women. I am not certain how the Government responded to those reports, but
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  although they were sent out in July, in view of what is going on now in central Africa, the clock might as well have been turned back to July.
  The reports refer to the genocide in neighbouring Rwanda in 1994, and the flight of the mostly Hutu Rwandan refugees into north Kivu, which fanned inter-ethnic tensions in that region. Some of those refugees arrived in Zaire well armed, and worked to politicise and organise the local Zairian Hutu population into militia groups.
  The reports called on the international community to respond to the growing conflict in that area, and their authors said that they perceived a growing silence and indifference to the problem. They also said that the increasingly poor handling of the refugee crisis had exacerbated the simmering conflict in the area, with predictable consequences. They said yet again that efforts by international non-governmental organisations to alert the international community to the potential for renewed violence were being ignored.
  The reports made a series of recommendations, and although that was in July, when we read them and look at what is going on in central Africa now, we think, "If only we had acted on those recommendations at the time." Had we done so, perhaps the representatives of the media who are having to report the awful violence that is now occurring there would not have to do so.
  The reports said that we should hold the Zairean Government accountable for the actions against the Tutsi population in northern Kivu and for other attacks on civilians. They recommended that the international community should encourage the peaceful and voluntary repatriation of Rwandan refugees from Zaire and provide the means necessary to isolate the camps and prevent further infiltration of ex-Far and Rwandan Interahamwe into north Kivu. The international community was also asked to put pressure on the Rwandan Government to improve their human rights record and create a climate conducive to the return of Rwandan refugees from the camps.
  Apparently there was a need for the international community to monitor the actions of Zairean forces towards the civilian population. The reports called for the deployment of international monitors at airports and border crossings in eastern Zaire to enforce United Nations arms embargoes against the Rwandan military and militias. They also called for the establishment of a UN commission, and for an inquiry into abuses of civilians in that area.
  The reports addressed a series of points to the Governments of Zaire and of Rwanda. Specifically, they called upon the Zairean leaders at all levels of government—national, regional and local—to denounce publicly the ethnic violence, to identify the political, administrative and military officials who have participated in militia attacks or profited from the insecurity in order to pillage or rape, to remove those people from their posts immediately, and to begin prosecutions.
  The reports asked the Government of Rwanda to create conditions within Rwanda that would favour the peaceful and voluntary return of refugees from Zaire. The Rwandans were asked to respect the right to freedom of expression, freedom of movement and freedom of assembly, regardless of ethnicity, and to begin the trials of those currently imprisoned in that country who were accused of having participated in the 1994 genocide.

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  We and the international community did nothing to prevent the Rwandan Hutu extremists—who are determined to return to their country by force and were allowed to take arms into the refugee camps—from launching frequent raids into Rwanda from their bases in the camps in Zaire. As a result, we are seeing familiar scenes in our newspapers and on our television screens. There is the threat of a full-scale war that could engulf the great lakes area of central Africa. Hundreds of thousands of helpless civilians—who are already refugees from war and violence—are once again fleeing to safety. Aid agencies are warning that the recent movement of civilians could lead to a humanitarian disaster similar to the 1994 Rwandan genocide and exodus.
  We had better listen this time, and we must pay attention and get it right. If we do not, the area could become engulfed in a war in which it will be difficult to say which side is which, and we shall be left once again to pick up the pieces. If we do not act now, that is what will happen.
  Mr. Mike Watson: Does my hon. Friend agree that the situation that he has so eloquently outlined in respect of Zaire, Rwanda and, indeed, Burundi is an example of where the UN might play an additional role in the future? Would not a centre for the resolution or avoidance of conflict be one way of ensuring UN involvement to a greater extent than occurred in the early days of the Rwandan dispute?
  Mr. Ross: I agree. That is why I was disappointed that the Foreign Secretary did not refer more to the Government's intentions towards the form and future of the UN. We should ask why the UN has got it so wrong in that area. Why did the UN allow the issue to slip off the agenda? Why did it allow the problems to bubble up once again?
  I should like the Secretary of State for Defence to respond to a particular dilemma when he winds up. We know that there could be elections in Zaire next year and that there is a degree of instability in that country. It is possible that some of the armies, who have armed themselves, could overrun Zaire. What Zaire needs is democracy, and it needs it soon. We know that the President—who is ill and receiving treatment outside Zaire—has promised elections. What action have the UK Government taken to ensure, first, that those elections take place and, secondly, that they are free and fair? Will Opposition parties in Zaire have a genuine right to argue their case? Will they be able to gain access to the media to ensure that the population hear the points that they want to make? We have made a mess of the issue so far, and we must start to put the pieces back together. If we assist in this area, we could help to ensure that there is some stability in Zaire.
  I wish to refer to Cuba, a country that the present Government have in recent years dealt with better than previous Administrations. I can remember when those of us in the all-party Cuba group would regularly ask Foreign Secretaries how they intended to help Cuba move towards a resolution of its conflict with its big brother, the United States of America. I was always disappointed by the way in which successive Ministers with responsibility for the area would respond. They did not regard it as a joke, but they seemed to respond with smiles when we suggested that Cuba was ready to receive not
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  only trade, but advice on how to rebuild its relations with the USA. The present Government, and a succession of Ministers from the Foreign Office and the Department of Trade and Industry, have done a great deal to help Cuba in its attempts to ease its tensions with the USA.
  Trade between the United Kingdom and Cuba has increased dramatically. In the first six months of this year, some £56 million-worth of trade was carried out between ourselves and Cuba, and it may be possible to achieve a record level of trade between our countries. Substantial joint ventures are now taking place involving industries in Cuba and this country, particularly in the development and processing of sugar, where British-managed joint ventures are already in place.
  The Helms-Burton Act recently came into the picture, and many people in this country were concerned about the effect that it might have. Those of us in the all-party Cuba group were pleased with the vociferous response from the Government to the contents of the Act and the representations that they made to the USA on the issue. Having spoken to the Cuban ambassador today, I can say that there is no real evidence that the Act has discouraged European countries—or even America's nearest neighbour, Canada—from forming joint ventures with Cuba. In addition, there is no evidence of any country withdrawing from joint ventures because of the Act. It is to the Government's credit that they responded as they did to the Helms-Burton Act, and their response was helpful.
  The Cuban economy has grown by about 9.6 per cent. in the first six months of this year, and Cuba is hoping for an annual growth in gross domestic product of 5 per cent. In 1994, the exchange rate within Cuba was 150 Cuban pesos to the dollar. The present figure is 18 pesos. Clearly, Cuba was moving along—until hurricane Lili arrived, bringing with it devastation. Some 5,640 homes were destroyed and a further 84,000 were severely damaged by the hurricane. Some 200 factories were destroyed, and considerable damage was done to the sugar and coffee crops. It is believed, however, that sugar—a much hardier crop—may be able to bounce back. In addition, 120,000 tonnes of citrus fruit were destroyed. Happily, no lives were lost. In the main, that was due to the action taken by the Cuban Government to protect the people. More than 300,000 people were evacuated from the path of the hurricane and 267,000 livestock were moved to safety.
  Cuba has not asked for direct aid from any other country, but it has asked the UN humanitarian agencies to provide assistance. I hope that the British Government will call on those UN agencies to provide assistance to Cuba. Cuba believes that it is responsible for dealing with the damage done to the lives of its people and to its economy, and it is confident that it can do so.
  Also with regard to bilateral relations, the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, the hon. Member for Bolton, West (Mr. Sackville), recently visited Cuba, and while he was there a co-operation agreement between Customs in Cuba and Customs and Excise in the United Kingdom was signed that will allow for the training of Cuban Customs officers to take part in the battle against the trade in drugs. That is something for which Cuba is particularly grateful and it will help our own and the world's fight against drugs.
  When the usual United Nations resolution on the blockade of Cuba is moved in the General Assembly, instead of abstaining, on this occasion, given the good

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  progress that has been made in other areas in our relationship, Britain should give a positive vote, calling for the lifting of the blockade against the island of Cuba.
  I associate myself with everything that my right hon. Friend the Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook) said about the middle east. He has a difficult portfolio to handle and I was pleased that he was able to visit the middle east two or three weeks ago, just before the recent difficulties. While he was there, he impressed most people with his awareness of the problems facing both the Israelis and the Palestinians in their determination and struggle for peace. I particularly agree with his assessment that the issues that he identified are the important ones.
  My right hon. Friend rightly identified the fact that the Palestinian economy needs to be revitalised or stimulated if there is to be a peace process at all. If that economy is to be revitalised, we have to do something to ensure that it is given an opportunity to grow. I welcome the new free trade status granted by the United States to the west bank and the Gaza strip, which join Mexico and Canada as lucky recipients of barrier-free access to United States markets, but they will not be able to take advantage of the free trade agreement unless the silly and sometimes provocative embargoes put on by the Israeli Government are lifted.
  It is pretty meaningless to have a free trade agreement with the United States if it is not possible to get the manufactured goods out of the country and into the United States in the first place. The on-going closures of the Palestinian territories to which my right hon. Friend referred are the first problem, before the goods reach the point of embarkation, with all the nonsense that goes on there. If we do not lift the closures and see our responsibility as not only to encourage but to demand that the Israeli Government understand that this is part of the peace process, the free trade agreement between the United States and the Palestinians on the west bank and Gaza will be just a piece of paper and nothing else.
  If the agreement were allowed to develop, it would open up the opportunity to the Palestinians, who—just as we need to trade with the European Union—need to trade with Israel, which is their closest partner. They need to trade with Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and the rest of the middle east, but they also need to trade with the rest of the outside world, and to do that, the restrictions need to be lifted. Although I welcome the free trade agreement itself, it does not mean much if it is not possible to get exports out of the country in the first place.
  I particularly welcome the declaration of the European Union on the middle east peace process, announced on 1 October. The EU, having visited the area, noted that the Palestinians were concerned that their position with regard to the final status of Jerusalem was being eroded by the actions of the Israeli Government on the ground. I do not want to go over all that unfortunate period, but 79 human beings lost their lives. When Yitzhak Rabin lost his life, and we were all devastated by that, I had hoped that his would be the last life to be lost, since that he gave his life for a land at peace, to which he was committed. Whether or not a particular Government were involved in negotiating those agreements, I had hoped that they would accept that the agreements that had been made between the former Prime Minister of Israel and the Palestinian people were made with Israel and not just with a particular
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  Government. They were made not with a Labour Government or a Likud Government, but between the Palestinian people and the Israeli people.
  I commend the part of the EU statement that stresses the importance of the Euro-Mediterranean Association agreement, which is based on a common commitment to the peace process and calls on Israel to give a clear, practical demonstration of its confirmed intention to implement fully the agreements already reached with the Palestine Liberation Organisation, because that is the success or otherwise of peace in the middle east. If only Benyamin Netanyahu could understand that, as Prime Minister, he has inherited agreements and responsibilities. If he simply wants to accept the present arrangement, which is an uneasy peace, and if he thinks that he can enforce security by force of arms, surely the experience of the past few months will have dissuaded him from that. I listened to the Prime Minister of Israel on "Panorama" last week. I certainly was not impressed that he changed so dramatically and I was not convinced that he really understood what was happening and the part that he must play if there is to be peace in the area.
  President Chirac is not the only person visiting the middle east. King Hussein of Jordan made a historic visit to Jericho, which is under Palestinian control. He made it quite clear that, despite all the difficulties, Jordanian-Israeli relationships were governed by existing peace treaties. Despite the fact that they were angry and distressed by what Israel had done over the period just before he visited Jericho, he made it clear that the existing peace treaties would be adhered to and built on, despite the actions of a new Israeli Government. He made it clear that he expected to see a link between the path of a comprehensive and complete peace in the region and the path of restoring the Palestinian and Arab people's right to the national soil.
  King Hussein helped to calm the concerns of Palestinians, because there was a time when many people thought that the Israeli Government might use the peace accord with Jordan to supplement or replace the peace agreement with the Palestinians. He emphasised:
  "We are working together, that our relations are as good as they ever have been and will continue to grow in that direction with mutual respect and trust and the determination to pursue our common goal of achieving peace for this region, for all its people."
  We now hear that the UK Foreign Secretary is also to visit the region shortly. In the press today, the Foreign Secretary is quoted as saying that, during his trip to the middle east, he will not be using any megaphone diplomacy. He said that his response would be first to complement and reinforce existing efforts in mediation made by the United States. He also said that the outside world should not seek to prescribe what the outcome would be, that it was for the Israelis and Palestinians. I agree entirely. He also said that he expected a wise, imaginative and flexible response from Prime Minister Netanyahu and his colleagues. He said that that was vital.
  The Foreign Secretary should remind Mr. Netanyahu that he—the Foreign Secretary—has responsibility for getting other agreements through both Houses of Parliament. On 29 February, the European Parliament gave its assent to the European-Mediterranean agreement with Israel. That must now go through both Houses in the United Kingdom. The Foreign Secretary should tell Mr. Netanyahu that unless he gets back to the peace table, starts talking seriously about peace and begins to lift some

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  of the restrictions on the Palestinian people, we shall have difficulty getting the European-Mediterranean agreement with Israel through either House. It is not that we do not want an agreement with Israel—we want to develop our relations—but we want countries with which we have agreements to live up to the agreements that they have already made, if only as a sign of their good faith.
  The Foreign Secretary spoke to the media about the European envoy to the middle east. I welcome the comments of the Irish Foreign Minister, Dick Spring, who said that there was a clear desire for the European Union to have a more hands-on role in the peace process. It is important for Europe to play an increasing and more important role in the peace process. After all, half of Israel's foreign trade is with the European Union, and 85 per cent. of Palestinian aid comes from the European Union.
  We do not want a repetition of what happened to the last European envoy, Mr. Thomas Dupla, who was forced to stay in his hotel and was not allowed out, because there was no agreement on what his job should be. We do not want to be represented by someone who is confined to his hotel. The Foreign Secretary said that we should spell out in detail what the envoy's role should be, or at least have some understanding of what his job should entail. I suggest that it should be to ensure that both the Palestinians and the Israelis observe international law. He could oversee the position, and guarantee that the Palestinians' human rights are restored and protected. He could also ensure that the massive amount of funding and finance from the European Union is getting through, and is not being held up at Israeli ports or by petty restrictions or downright obstruction. That would be a constructive role for him to play on behalf of Europe.
  There is a major problem. Billions of pounds of aid have been pledged to the Palestinians, but every time the Israeli Government bring a closure on the west bank and Gaza the Palestinian economy loses $6 million per day.
  Mr. Fabricant: Does the hon. Gentleman concede that every time the state of Israel brings a closure, as he puts it, on the movement of Arabs from the west bank or Gaza into Israel, it is not an action but a reaction? It is a reaction to Hamas and other groups that have perpetrated terrorism against the state of Israel.
  Mr. Ross: If it were that—
  Mr. Fabricant: It is that.
  Mr. Ross: If it were that, the hon. Gentleman's point would have some substance. But it has been announced that the west bank and Gaza will be closed this weekend because it is the anniversary of an alleged attack by the Israeli security services on Hamas activists in another country. Whether that incident involved the Israeli secret service, I do not know. I am simply saying that, as it has been decided that there may be some activity in response to that anniversary, this weekend the population in the west bank and Gaza will be confined to that area. The hon. Gentleman is not necessarily correct.
  Every time the Palestinians are locked up, their economy loses $6 million per day which could be spent on improving infrastructure, improving the job prospects of Palestinians and improving the life of the Palestinian
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  people. We should be aware of that, and I hope that the Foreign Secretary will take the matter up with the Prime Minister of Israel when he visits the middle east. I wish him luck. The House is united on this issue. The Foreign Secretary should make it clear to the new Government in Israel that we expect them to honour the international agreements that they have drawn up.
  This country has a good record on building democracy in other parts of the world—a record to which parties on both sides of the House have contributed. In a document that was agreed at our party conference, we said that a Labour Government
  "will be committed to supporting democracy throughout the world."
  It says that we will not seek to impose our model of democracy, but
  "we will offer practical assistance to countries that are committed to creating plural, participatory and accountable political structures".
  It goes on to say that we shall do that by enhancing the role of the Westminster Foundation for Democracy. The Labour party is not the only party involved in the Westminster Foundation for Democracy.
  As the Secretary of State for Defence knows, the Westminster Foundation for Democracy is funded by the Foreign Office, all parties are represented in that organisation and I am privileged to be one of its governors. During the past year, the foundation has funded a wide range of projects to encourage democratic institutions overseas. It has supported political parties, the media, trade unions, women's groups, Parliaments and non-governmental organisations. Its work has grown, and it has given opportunities and encouragement to many individuals who are committed to democratic development in their own countries. Of particular importance are projects in Russia, Bosnia and South Africa. Those countries have regional and global significance, so it is vital to reinforce democratic efforts and activity.
  As I have said, the Labour party intends to enhance the work of the Westminster Foundation for Democracy, and to give greater prominence in our democracy-building activities to the role of civil society. The recipients of assistance have tremendous respect for the work and methods of the foundation. That is shown by the enormous and increasing number of applications for projects, and by the fact that the foundation is increasingly being used as a model by similar foundations.
  We have developed a niche for effective, small-scale projects and for encouraging work involving political parties within countries and from different countries. However, we have not been as effective as we would have liked in the former Soviet Union. As a governor of the foundation, I have argued that increased emphasis should be placed on that region, and I know that the other governors agree with me.
  It is time to expand the work of the Westminster Foundation for Democracy to meet the increasing demand from current recipient countries and to move into other areas where the need for such assistance is growing or could arise in the future, such as the middle east, Palestine, the Indian sub-continent, Cuba, central America and south-east Asia. The foundation's current budget is £2.5 million. An increase of £500,000 would go unnoticed in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office accounts, but it would have a dramatic impact on the foundation's capacity to increase its activities throughout the world. I

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  should like to see the foundation extend its remit to work with those in exile in Burma, the Sudan and Nigeria, to prepare them for an eventual return to democracy. We should be allowed to carry out appropriate projects on a contract basis for the know-how funds and for the Overseas Development Administration.
  The Westminster Foundation for Democracy is a remarkable organisation in that all political parties play a part in it. It does a fantastic job wherever it helps to build plural, democratic, accountable structures and I recommend it for further support from the Government. I shall certainly demand further support from a future Labour Government.
  5.30 pm
  Dr. Charles Goodson-Wickes: As usual, our debates on defence and foreign affairs tend to be civilised. That has certainly been the case so far today and was the case in last week's debate on the defence estimates. In that debate my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence had every reason to be proud of the record of our armed forces, which give sterling service in so many parts of the world. That praise was echoed in all parts of the House. Today my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary gave a masterly exposition of our attitude to foreign affairs in this changing world. I particularly welcomed the historical context of his speech in which he spoke about a multi-polar world.
  I am glad to see the hon. Member for South Shields (Dr. Clark) in his place. He also had some interesting and sensible thoughts last week, but I understand that at the Labour party conference there was, sadly, no opportunity for a defence debate, which is a remarkable indictment.
  Dr. David Clark: There was a defence debate in which the Labour party committed itself to the retention of Trident.
  Dr. Goodson-Wickes: I took the precaution of obtaining the hon. Gentleman's contribution to what he refers to as a defence debate. I have the text in front of me. I understand that the debate took place under a larger, rather pretentiously ordered debate which was headed "Leadership in the World". The hon. Gentleman's contribution consisted of 17 sentences—I have added them up—which apparently reflect the whole of Labour's attitude to defence. Then he moved on, as he rightly said, to tackling the dissention in his party on the issue of Trident. He and I know perfectly well that usually 40-plus of his colleagues put their names to anti-nuclear amendments in the debate on the defence estimates. This year, surprise, surprise, the number had halved and about 20 of his colleagues put their names down for that debate.
  I can only conclude, and I suspect that the country will conclude, that nobody was swayed by the hon. Gentleman's arguments about Trident. There was no philosophical argument, as I understood it. His main basis for not cancelling Trident was that the money on it had largely been spent and there were few savings to be had. None of his hon. Friends will be convinced by the philosophical rigour of that argument and I suspect that the country will conclude that Labour party principles have been subordinated to electoral advantage.
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  The hon. Member for South Shields looks rather uncomfortable. I shall quote one of the more dramatic phrases in his speech. He said:
  "We have caught up with the Tories on defence."
  That may be a bold statement, but it is not particularly inspiring. Let us examine his claim. Did Labour pledge to increase the establishment of the armed forces? No, of course it did not. Has it promised increased expenditure on defence equipment orders? Of course not. Has it produced any new ideas for recruitment? On that I grant a small point to the hon. Gentleman because he came up with the dynamic new idea that we should extend recruitment to citizens of our European partner countries. That suggestion will not take the world by storm. Admirable as are the soldiers of Greece, Italy, Finland or wherever, I cannot see any great merit in their being recruited into the British Army, which seems to be the extent of the hon. Gentleman's enlightened suggestion.
  Dr. David Clark: Does not the hon. Gentleman think that it is right that people such as the Secretary of State for Defence should be eligible to join the British Army?
  Dr. Goodson-Wickes: One could hardly find anybody more fervently committed to this country's defence needs than my right hon. Friend, whatever his distinguished ancestry. The hon. Member for South Shields spoke about citizens of other European countries and as far as I know my right hon. Friend is a citizen only of the United Kingdom. Therefore, the hon. Gentleman's argument is fallacious.
  What does the hon. Member for South Shields really aspire to? He aspires to a defence review no less, based on what he describes as defence needs rather than defence costs. That is a rather interesting concept because it implies that his hon. Friends have obtained a blank cheque from the so-called shadow iron Chancellor to enable their defence aspirations to be met. Can Labour really justify the appalling uncertainty that would be brought about by a defence review after so much disruption in these changing times? What a contrast to the aspiration in the first paragraph on policy in the Gracious Speech which states:
  "National security continues to be of the highest importance. My Government will continue to play a major role in NATO's adaptation and in decisions on its enlargement, and to contribute to the maintenance of international peace and security."
  The hon. Member for South Shields will be glad to hear that the paragraph also states:
  "the United Kingdom's minimum nuclear deterrent will he maintained."
  That is in accord with the wishes of right-thinking people throughout the country.
  In last week's debate on the defence estimates my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence gave the salutary warning that after the cold war NATO had yet to meet an adversary which combines military capability with a strong political will. Against that stark background we should examine our own military resources and those within larger organisations to which we belong.
  It is an enormous tribute to the adaptability and the morale of our forces that we have maintained the highest ever percentage of the Army deployed since the second world war. That is largely in Northern Ireland and in Bosnia. However, there is a price to be paid and I obviously declare an interest as a Regular Army reserve

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  officer. It is that we cannot indefinitely compress the training, deployment, leave and retraining cycle even further than critics of "Options for Change" predicted. Sadly, the term overstretch has become so much used that its impact has been lessened. If anything, its effect, seen particularly in inadequate intervals between tours, is more profound on families than on service men themselves. Their resilience is quite fantastic and nobody knows and cultivates it more than my hon. Friend the Minister of State for the Armed Forces with his typical enthusiasm and bonhomie.
  The Army is 4,000 below strength and the demographic trough will continue until about 2002. Uncertainty over such matters as the Bett report, the Army medical services back-up and the future of the married quarters estate, although the last issue has been resolved, have taxed good will in the armed forces. I look forward to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence giving a progress report on what the Government have done to achieve recruitment of around 17,000 a year for the next three years—that should be its level—to ensure that we have a well-trained, well-housed and well-paid professional Army.
  I wish to examine our role in the larger military organisations in which we participate, the adaptation of which is referred to in the Queen's Speech. I welcome my right hon. Friend's positive redefinition of the Western European Union's role as the European arm of NATO, whereby the WEU maintains political control of NATO assets if only European interests are involved. I have reservations, however—I accept that this is an unfashionable view—about NATO's proposed extension to include central and eastern European countries that were once members of the defunct Warsaw pact.
  If, as the Government have stated, the Russians are wary of the WEU becoming the defence arm of the so-called European Union—that wariness would be shared by many Conservative Members—why should a fragile Russia be any more content with NATO's extension to the former Soviet border? Is it not understandable that it could be interpreted as a threatening move? Should we risk aggravating the uncertainty that unfortunately prevails in Russia and possibly provoking wilder elements to react against a new artificial division across Europe, moving to the east? In historical terms, it could be interpreted as the iron curtain simply being shifted eastward, not with all the implications of the cold war era, but with implications that the House needs to debate.
  Furthermore, if EU Foreign Ministers are incapable of developing a common defence and security policy—again, many of us shed no tears over that at the current stage of European evolution—what makes the Government think that an expanded NATO could do better? Why muddy the waters of decision-making in an organisation that has worked supremely well for half a century and that has furthermore competently adapted from the cold war to the decisive leadership that it has shown in former Yugoslavia?
  Mr. Andrew Mackinlay: I apologise for intervening, but I spoke on this matter last night and I feel strongly that we should remind ourselves of the reason for NATO. It was set up, first, for collective security, but also looking forward to the day when new democracies could
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  emerge in central and eastern Europe. That is happening. A historic window of political opportunity needs to be seized.
  Miscalculation is one of the tragedies of our foreign policy this century. We need to recognise the rights of the people of Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic and some other states, for instance the Baltic states. Certainly Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic should be admitted into NATO in the first tranche. It is a matter of right, apart from our self-interest in terms of collective security and the fact that Poland, with its large land mass and significant army, can contribute a great deal.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Geoffrey Lofthouse): Order. The hon. Gentleman did speak last night and he is having another go this afternoon.
  Dr. Goodson-Wickes: I apologise for missing the hon. Gentleman's speech last night, but I suspect that I heard a rerun of it just now. I have a certain amount of sympathy with what he says, but I hope that he will realise from what I have said that it is a question of getting the right balance. Of course one wants to back up democracies that have developed so marvellously in former eastern European countries, but we should not rush headlong into expanding NATO without thinking about the implications, particularly in relation to Russia.
  In the context of collective security, it is not difficult to identify potential flashpoints throughout the world. For instance, there are large and significant proportions of ethnic Russians—most of them, I think, holding Russian nationality—in the Baltic states. The middle east is going through yet another period of increased tension. Islamic fundamentalism has spread to as near as north Africa, within close range, given modern armaments, of the United Kingdom. Lastly—I do not pretend that this is an exclusive list—further flare-ups in the Balkans are possible.
  There are at least two major anomalies in NATO's relationship with Europe. First, neither France nor Spain is yet fully integrated into the NATO structure. Obviously, we all welcome the positive and now speeded-up moves to bring about that integration, but it is and has been a problem. Secondly, there is the bizarre anomaly of European countries such as Austria, Finland, Sweden and Ireland preserving, for different historical reasons, their neutrality, which makes their accession to NATO unlikely. I was delighted to hear my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary confirm that NATO membership is equivalent to WEU membership and that a country cannot be a member of one and not of the other.
  Those two points will underlie any further discussion about the development of NATO and of the EU. Surely the yardstick of any development or reform—however we put it—must be the question: would we get unanimous and speedy military decisions on matters of collective security, whatever and whenever threats might arise? We need look no further than the different and often conflicting interests of, for instance, Turkey and Greece to realise what complications could arise if, willy-nilly, we expanded NATO.
  By all means, let us co-operate militarily with former eastern bloc countries and develop "Partnership for Peace". It is extremely healthy that we are planning—for, I think, the end of this year—military operations in Poland

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  and the Ukraine. I am not certain whether that has been confirmed, but, rather than any organic development, it represents the best way in which to get to know and understand each other and build trust.
  Clearly, Poland is vital because of all its historical, emotional and geographical aspects. The Ukraine is an especially interesting example because, as far as I know, it has not applied to join NATO and will always have a special relationship vis-à-vis Russia. In any future balance of power in Europe, the Ukraine will always play an important part.
  Those are important, confidence-building measures without organic change. I urge my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence not—and I am putting words into his mouth here which he will probably reject—to support NATO's enlargement for enlargement's sake, or to view such an enlargement as a substitute for broadening the EU, which many Conservative Members believe should be the prime aim and, in many ways, should take precedence over any possible NATO enlargement.
  Since 1979, this Conservative Government have been tried, tested and proved right in military and foreign affairs. They have a record of which they can be proud. For the whole country's sake, we need them to continue in this uncertain world. I welcome the strong endorsement of policies to this end in the Gracious Speech.
  5.49 pm
  Mr. Menzies Campbell: We have been told that the forthcoming general election will be characterised by far greater participation than ever before of theatrical and sporting personalities. Even so, none of us was sufficiently prepared for the shock of hearing the Foreign Secretary praying in aid the sayings of Mr. Tommy Docherty to make a political point. Mr. Docherty is better known for his football than for his philosophy, but I suppose that we must all find our aphorisms wherever we can.
  I wish that the hon. Member for Wimbledon (Dr. Goodson-Wickes) had been with me and my right hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown) when this morning we called on the President of Poland, who is visiting the United Kingdom. The hon. Gentleman would have been made aware of the strength of Poland's desire to participate in not only the European Union but NATO, as a way of receiving recognition for the enormous changes in Poland. That country is understandably endeavouring to ensure that change is firmly rooted in the country's internal democracy and in membership of external institutions that is conditional on the maintenance of democracy.
  NATO has succeeded in relation to Greece and Turkey. If one or both countries had been outside NATO, I suspect that the nature of the relations between them in the recent past might have resulted in not only disagreement but active conflict. NATO has in that sense accommodated countries that substantially disagree, allowing pressure to be imposed to resolve their disagreements by peaceful means, not conflict. The observations of the hon. Member for Wimbledon were not entirely well placed. He has much more practical experience of being a soldier than most right hon. and hon. Members, but on this occasion I must part company with his analysis and logic.
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  I do not part company with the analysis and logic of the right hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. Howell), who is Chairman of the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs, in his remarks about the influence of and role played by the British Council and the BBC World Service. I suspect that he was speaking for virtually every right hon. and hon. Member—I was about to say with the exception of Government Front Benchers, but perhaps one can include even them. The economies made in relation to the British Council and the World Service are of small intrinsic value but have had an unfortunate and regrettable impact on those organisations, which ensure more than anything else that the United Kingdom's cultural and political values receive the widest possible audience.
  It is said that there are no votes in foreign affairs—I do not know whether Mr. Tommy Docherty was the source of that quotation. That sentiment is generally accepted, although sometimes it is expressed differently. President Clinton did so rather negatively when he said, "It's the economy, stupid." Foreign affairs do not always command great interest in relation to electoral success. Perhaps that is why the Prime Minister's contribution yesterday did not make any mention of any foreign affairs issue. The Prime Minister addressed the House on the opening day of the debate on the Loyal Address without once referring to any of the foreign affairs issues raised in the Gracious Speech.
  The Queen's Speech stated:
  "My Government will continue to promote respect for human rights and the international rule of law."
  Those words will have a particularly hollow ring in Nigeria and East Timor. During last week's debate on the defence estimates, I asked what possible moral justification the United Kingdom has for supplying arms to Indonesia. How does the UK
  "promote respect for human rights"
  by supplying arms to Indonesia? In foreign policy, we must exercise judgments about the countries that are entitled to benefit from relations with the UK. Countries that permanently flout human rights or have oppressive regimes should not enjoy that benefit.
  The Indonesian Government are systematically abusing human rights in Indonesia and East Timor. We do not need to know whether Hawk aircraft have been used against persons offering resistance in East Timor. It is enough to know the nature and extent of abuse by the Government of persons who seek to maintain publicly any opinion other than that of the Government. We know enough from the award of the Nobel peace prize to Bishop Belo and Jose Ramos Horta for their campaigning against repression in East Timor.
  Mr. Nigel Evans: Will the hon. and learned Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Campbell: In a moment.
  British Aerospace has had my consistent support, and I suspect that the hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) is about to make that point. I disagree with the right hon. Member for Guildford for seeking indirectly to make a point about the need for the European fighter aircraft and its cost. That aircraft is central to the United Kingdom's defence and to the success and future of British Aerospace. However, I do not believe that the export of Hawk aircraft to Indonesia is necessary for BAe's survival.

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  During the summer, the Prime Minister talked about introducing morality into politics. I have some reservations about the extent to which politicians of any kind should start moralising, but how about introducing morality into British policy on Indonesia?
  Mr. Evans: I was also a little taken aback when my right hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Mr. Howell) started trading the EFA for money for the World Service and various other purposes. I am not saying that money should not be directed at such organisations, but one cannot go about it that way. Nevertheless, is it Liberal Democrat policy to stop the sale of Hawk trainer aircraft to Indonesia?
  Mr. Campbell: Yes, absolutely. I will send the hon. Gentleman a copy of my speech to my party's annual conference, which made exactly that point—which I am repeating. If there is merit in consistency, perhaps I may be allowed a certain measure of self-congratulation for that, if nothing else.
  If we are concerned about the moral high ground, why does not the UK take a lead in a campaign to achieve an outright ban on the production, export and use of anti-personnel land mines? Why does not the UK renounce the manufacture, sale and deployment of anti-personnel land mines? Can there be any greater rebuke to our conscience than that, every day of every year, thousands of men, women and children lose their lives or limbs as a result of the indiscriminate use of land mines? Is it not an affront to humanity that a device that costs $3 to make and $1,000 to clear should cause such widespread civilian casualties? Is it not to our shame that so many of those casualties are in the third world? The military case for anti-personnel land mines is increasingly challenged by senior military commanders who previously had responsibility for the deployment of those weapons. The moral case against them is overwhelming and unanswerable.
  Many land mines have been indiscriminately strewn around Bosnia-Herzegovina. The Gracious Speech commits the Government
  "to support peace in Bosnia and Herzegovina, encouraging full compliance with the Peace Agreement and promoting reconciliation between the former warring parties."
  None of us wants to detract from that objective, but the real issue is whether there will be a follow-on force to IFOR and, if so, whether the UK will be part of it. We know the answer to the second question but not the first, because the Secretary of State for Defence answered the second question in the affirmative last week.
  On the hypothesis that the international community resolved that there should be a follow-on force, the Secretary of State for Defence said that the United Kingdom should be part of it, as should the United States. Everyone agrees that the implementation force has been a remarkable achievement. However, we know that there is still instability in Bosnia-Herzegovina and that the ingredients for tragedy, despair and destruction are still there. We must not throw away the gains made in the past few months. I believe that there must be a follow-on force. The United Kingdom should be exercising every diplomatic effort to achieve that. The answer to the first question must therefore be that there will be a follow-on force and to the second that the United Kingdom will be part of it.
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  There will be risks involved in any such force. British service men and women will be put at risk, but I do not believe that the international community can risk a return to the endless litany of horror and degradation that has been suffered for so many years in a country that is right at the heart of Europe.
  The right hon. Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook) dealt forcefully and effectively with the issue of war criminals. We must robustly and with dedication bring to justice those who have been accused of war crimes. They must not be allowed to escape the consequences of their inhuman behaviour, if that is established in evidence. They must not be allowed to flout the civilised standards of conduct which it is incumbent on us all to follow. As I understand it, the right hon. Member for Livingston said that it was a matter of deterrence. He said that, if we do not deal with it effectively on this occasion, in the future others will feel free to visit the same sort of horrors on other people. That may be true, but there is a more fundamental point: the intrinsic evil of the actions of those against whom the allegations have been made is such that they should be brought to justice, irrespective of any question of deterrence.
  The United Nations failed to bring peace to Bosnia, but it succeeded in keeping many people alive and in preventing even worse bloodshed. It failed because its members gave it ambiguous political objectives and inadequate resources for the mission that it was directed to fulfil.
  Mr. Fabricant: Does the hon. and learned Gentleman agree that the United Nations also failed because it does not have a command structure like that in NATO and that, therefore, it was bound to fail even if it had been given the political directions that he claims it lacked?
  Mr. Campbell: I am coming to elements of reform which I hope might find ready acceptance from the hon. Gentleman.
  If the United Nations is to be more effective in the future, it must be reformed. There is a political crisis—that may be an overworked word, but there is certainly political anxiety at the heart of the United Nations as we conduct this debate—about the future of the office of Secretary-General. I do not believe that whether Mr. Boutros-Ghali has done well or badly matters any longer. The fact is that he has lost the confidence of the United States. The United States is a permanent member of the Security Council and, for the sake of the United Nations, Mr. Boutros-Ghali should step down because the UN cannot afford the paralysis of a dispute in the Security Council about who should be its Secretary-General. However, there is a quid pro quo for such a gesture, which is that the United States Congress should release immediately funds to pay the outstanding contributions of the United States, which now amount to $2 billion. If suppose that, in a practical if not a theoretical sense, the United Nations may be on the verge of bankruptcy. We cannot tolerate that.
  The hon. Member for Mid-Staffordshire (Mr.. Fabricant) raised questions of reform. I shall tell him what I think is an essential minimum programme of reform for the UN. First, there must be an end to the financial profligacy that has characterised so much of what the UN has done. There must be an end to the overstaffing that

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  has bedevilled the UN. There must be an end to appointments made on country of origin rather than on merit. We need a UN agency—this has been referred to obliquely, if not directly, by the right hon. Member for Livingston—for the prevention and suppression of conflict. We should resurrect the military committee of the UN and there should be a staff college responsible for the formulation and revision of peacekeeping doctrine and for instruction in peacekeeping techniques. We should resolve the much vexed question of assigned forces being available for rapid response at the instigation of the Security Council and in reliance of appropriate resolutions. That is the minimum programme of reforms necessary if the United Nations is to perform with more success in circumstances such as those it met in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
  This was the year of the Scott report. I have listened to Ministers and read with interest their responses. Nothing has persuaded me that the events that led to Lord Justice Scott being invited to carry out his extensive inquiry could not happen again. Nothing has been said or written which, in my judgment, would prevent a similar set of circumstances from arising.
  The Foreign Secretary made what one might describe as a statement in relation to certain allegations about Government policy towards Argentina. I am one of those who believe that we should seek to improve our relations with Argentina. The future of the Falkland islanders will best be secured by an atmosphere of, if not trust, at least a higher degree of co-operation. I have met the ambassador and officials from Argentina and I have no doubt that other hon. Members who are similarly motivated will have done the same.
  We know that serious allegations are being made which suggest that certain equipment which would otherwise have been the subject of embargo has been supplied. The Foreign Secretary made a careful statement, but he did not answer all the questions in my mind. I want to pose those questions because it is right that they should be on the record.
  Has policy towards Argentina and the supply of arms or arms-related equipment changed in any way since it was first formulated? Has that policy been subject to different interpretation at any time since its formulation? Has Rolls-Royce been permitted to supply marine engine spares for use in Argentine navy warships? If it has done so, was it with the knowledge of officials in any Government Department? If it has done so, was it with the knowledge of Ministers from any Government Department? If Rolls-Royce has supplied marine engine spares for use in warships, would that be contrary to the Government's published policy? The House is entitled to have answers to those questions.
  Several of those who have contributed to the debate have referred to the middle east. I believe that there is an opportunity for Europe, acting collectively, to exert a beneficial influence in that region. Most assuredly, we have an interest in the region and we have historic associations with many countries there.
  The recent eruption of unrest between Israel and the Palestinians came about as a result of an action regarded by the Palestinians as extremely provocative, but the underlying cause of that eruption was the departure from
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  the principle of land for peace, which lay at the centre of the Oslo accord. The Secretary of State mentioned the need for early withdrawal from Hebron by Israeli forces, but that would not be an end of the process. Withdrawal from Hebron should be the first step in a revitalised peace process, in which the Oslo accord and the principles on which it was founded should be the centrepiece of negotiation.
  The Secretary of State told us that he was going on a tour to the middle east and would eschew megaphone diplomacy. I doubt that anyone would criticise that. Nevertheless, I suggest to him, and to others responsible for formulating United Kingdom policy on that matter, that the centrepiece of our policy should be an acceptance that the European Union should take a much more vigorous role in endeavouring to help the peace process.
  We should urge Israel to cease provocation such as the continuing building of new settlements. We should urge Israel to implement the Oslo accord. We should urge Israel to end the closures of the occupied territories, which have such a devastating effect on the Palestine economy. We should urge Israel to end its predatory action in relation to the city of Jerusalem. We should urge Israel to abandon its threat to close the Orient house in Jerusalem.
  Some of those proposals are more significant than others. Some of those features of current Israeli policy toward the Palestinian people cause considerable distrust and anxiety, and unless those issues are resolved, one cannot look with optimism on a favourable outcome to the present exchanges—I was going to say peace negotiations, but I doubt that what is happening justifies that description. The present exchanges are unlikely to be successful unless the issues that I just mentioned are properly resolved.
  I mentioned a role for the European Union in the middle east. I conclude by referring to the United Kingdom's role in the European Union. This is surely a time when our country is entitled to clear and unambiguous leadership in the debate about Europe. There has been a temporary lull in the internal storm in the Conservative party on that topic—no doubt induced by the soporific breezes of Bournemouth—but one must ask oneself how long that will last, and how long the Prime Minister can expect to straddle the gap on Europe in the Conservative party.
  Mr. Mackinlay: Until 1 May.
  Mr. Campbell: Not as long as that, I fancy. One might say that that would be the terminus a quo of his capacity to straddle that gap, but I doubt that he will manage to get to that point, at least in relation to Europe.
  The events of the summer speak for themselves. I do not wish to rehearse them, but one unique event was eloquent of Government disarray: the hon. Member for Upminster (Sir N. Bonsor), who was in the Chamber earlier, spoke on radio programmes, criticising a Cabinet Minister for breaching Government policy.
  In the curious circumstances of the dispute in the governing party about its policy towards Europe, that is probably the most curious event to have occurred. Nothing similar can have happened in modern political times. If it has happened, the junior Minister has not been notable for his survival afterwards. It was an extraordinary event, and it emphasised the fact that this gap, division, disagreement, lies at the heart of the Conservative party.

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  Four principles should guide the debate on Europe. First—in some senses I echo the Prime Minister—Britain must be unequivocal that its future is as a full and committed member of the European Union. Secondly, Britain must work to make the European Union more democratic and decentralised, and we must rigorously enforce the principle of subsidiarity at every level of government, in Europe and in the United Kingdom.
  Thirdly, Britain must be committed to going ahead with monetary union if economic conditions make it possible to do so. Finally, any substantial change in constitutional arrangements between Britain and the European Union, including the question whether we should join a single currency, should be submitted to the people of Britain for approval in a referendum.
  The Gracious Speech contains, characteristically, many ambiguities and euphemisms—nowhere more so than in relation to Europe. The expansion of NATO is desirable; the expansion of the European Union is inevitable; a comprehensive test ban treaty is worth while; free trade is advantageous; but Europe is central, and the Government's divisions appear irreconcilable. Those divisions will halt them until they are driven from office.
  6.15 pm
  Mr. Michael Fabricant (Mid-Staffordshire): I have the honour to follow the hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell), who demands that we have a referendum if the Government decide to enter a single currency—yet the Prime Minister has committed us to such a referendum in those circumstances. The hon. and learned Gentleman also says that we should strengthen subsidiarity, yet the Prime Minister himself introduced the concept of subsidiarity at the conference in Birmingham some years ago when we had the presidency of the European Union. It is pleasurable to witness such cross-party unity, on that issue at least.
  I shall discuss Israel later, but I cannot resist saying that, at the moment, many people might feel that Binyamin Netanyahu is being held hostage in his own coalition, and that one of the reasons for his hard-line policy is the number of Members of Parliament from the Religious party in his Cabinet, which is a direct consequence of the proportional representation that Israel must suffer in the Knesset. It is Liberal Democrat policy that we should have the same sort of—
  Mr. Menzies Campbell rose—
  Mr. Fabricant: I am happy to give way. I think we are going to witness a U-turn.
  Mr. Campbell: First, my party does not support the system of proportional representation that is used in Israel. That system allows for representation, however minuscule the vote. The system that we support demands that a party gain 5 per cent. of the vote before it obtains representation—a system that has worked successfully in Germany so that the German economy has been the most powerful in Europe for the past 30 years.
  Mr. Fabricant: If we are going to trade comments such as that, I would say that the 5 per cent. system also operates in Italy, and that it might be argued that the Italian economy has been paralysed because of coalitions.
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  The situation in Germany is very different because there is far less controversy between the different parties in Germany.
  Mr. Watson: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Fabricant: No; I wish to reach the main part of my speech.
  My right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary said that the four pillars of our foreign policy are the transatlantic alliance, relationships with developing countries, world trade and, of course, Europe. The hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East has had fun talking about the Conservative party's possible divisions on Europe, but he must accept that similar arguments on Europe are taking place in the Labour party and the Liberal party. There would be rigor mortis in the Chamber if there were no such arguments. The most profound issue facing the United Kingdom today is our relationship with Europe. I have used the word "argument" advisedly, because to argue is to discuss. I have not said that we are quarrelling, and yet I can say that some Liberal Members oppose their leader and do not want a federal Europe. I suggest that argument on Europe is inevitable and that it is positively healthy.
  I should like to raise one specific European matter, because it has affected one of my constituents—although it has general importance in our relationship with Europe. At 6 o'clock on Thursday 11 July 1996, my constituent—Mr. Stanley Allsop of Lichfield—was arrested. He was held in prison without charge for 68 days, he was not allowed to see a lawyer for four days, he was not allowed to make a telephone call during the entire period that he was in prison, he was not charged with a crime, and he was not allowed to see his wife, his children or his grandchildren.
  After 68 days—on 17 September 1996—Mr. Allsop was released. Did this incident happen in Iraq? No. Did it happen in the People's Republic of China? No. It occurred in France. He was arrested because he was asked to transport into the United Kingdom a container, which was sealed in another country, that had drugs inside. The French authorities eventually came to the conclusion that he could not possibly have known that there were drugs in the container that he was collecting for his transport firm, which is based in Lichfield.
  The extraordinary aspect of the case is that in France, as in many other parts of the European Union, English law does not prevail and, therefore, there is no habeas corpus. Astonishingly, what happened to Mr. Allsop could not have happened in the United Kingdom or in the United States. It certainly could not have happened to him in Australia, New Zealand, India or South Africa, where English law prevails—[Interruption.] The hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East says Dutch law prevails in South Africa.
  Mr. Campbell: I am always happy to assist the hon. Gentleman with his education about the United Kingdom. The law in South Africa is Roman-Dutch in origin—exactly the same as the law in Scotland.
  Mr. Fabricant: I think that the hon. and learned Gentleman will find that the system of habeas corpus has been incorporated into South African law. I have worked

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  in South Africa, and pure Roman-Dutch does not prevail, as he maintains. Habeas corpus—the very principle of English law—applies in South Africa.
  The problem with the situation in France and in other parts of the European Union—although not exclusively there—is that, at times, there is more corpus than habeas. People can be held for long periods without being allowed to see relatives, to consult a lawyer or to make a telephone call. They can be held without being charged. That situation is patently wrong and against the principles of natural justice.
  Before we discuss such issues as how straight cucumbers should be, or possible directives on caramel, we should discuss, as a high priority, a common principle of human rights in the European Union for the protection of all European Union citizens. That comment presents a bit of dilemma for me, because I am not at all keen on European directives that impinge on the legal process of any European Union country. It is necessary, however, to have a common basis of human rights so that European Union citizens know that they will have access to lawyers and cannot be held in prison unless they are charged for a specific crime.
  It is extraordinary that Mr. Allsop was held in prison in France—only 40 miles from the south England coast—but that he had no access to a lawyer for such a long time, was not allowed throughout his imprisonment to make a telephone call or to see his wife, children or grandchildren.
  Mr. Allsop was released on 17 September 1996. I should like to pay tribute to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. My right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary intervened on his behalf, as did my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs and Baroness Chalker in another place. The British embassy was active on Mr. Allsop's behalf in Paris, and there was a successful outcome.
  While trying to obtain Mr. Allsop's release, I learnt the extraordinary fact that 15 other British citizens are being held in France without charge. That must be wrong. There must be a common standard of justice and a basic standard of human rights throughout the European Union. If there is not, the European Union will become a meaningless place.
  I was delighted that my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary, in his introduction to today's debate, spoke about the need for world trade. He will recall that, on 26 April 1996, I introduced a ten-minute Bill entitled the Association (United Kingdom, United States and Former Dominions) Bill. I said that it is important, when entering a partnership, to enter a partnership of compatibles. When I was in business, I learnt that it is no good entering partnerships unless one feels that the partners are reasonably compatible and have the same business objectives. I am not married, but I suspect that—unless it is a forced marriage—it is helpful to marry someone who will be compatible over the years, as a longer-lasting and genuine friendship is more likely to result.
  I do not agree with forced marriages or with forced partnerships. There must be compatibility, and I believe that we are very compatible with such countries as the United States and with the former dominions—Canada,
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  Australia and New Zealand. They share not only the English language, but the English legal system—and the principle of habeas corpus.
  Although the population of the United Kingdom, the United States and the old Commonwealth countries, at 356 million people, is smaller than that of the European Union—including the United Kingdom—at 369 million, the gross national product of the EU, including the United Kingdom, is $7,280,975 million, whereas the combined GNP of the United Kingdom, the United States and the old Commonwealth is more than $8,274,500 million. I am not suggesting that we exclude one set of partners or the other, or that there is a conflict between trade with the United States and the old Commonwealth and with our being at the heart of Europe, but it is important that we continue to maintain our links with the United States.
  As I said in an intervention in the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Mr. Howell), the Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee, British companies are the single largest holder of shares in United States companies, and United States companies have the largest number of shares in United Kingdom companies. That has come about not by historical accident but as a direct consequence of our common heritage and of the fact that it is so easy to do business between us.
  Before I came to the House in 1992, I had a company that designed and installed equipment in radio stations and provided services for them. My "compatible" partners and I formed a company from scratch; by the time we sold it in 1991, 48 countries were using equipment and systems designed by us in the United Kingdom. When firms in France owed us money, I found that it was a difficult exercise to go through the French legal system, but when we were owed money by firms in the United States, I was stunned by the fact that the American system had evolved so similarly to ours.
  The United States gained its independence from us in 1783 and could have evolved a totally different legal system; in fact, its system developed in parallel with ours. I think that it was Nietzsche who said that a language was the very soul of a nation—the very basis of how people think. That is demonstrated by the compatibility of the United States and the United Kingdom in so many matters. I was therefore delighted when my right hon. and learned Friend said that the Atlantic alliance was one of the four pillars that we should develop in our foreign policy.
  Our foreign policy has now moved back to the first Elizabethan era. People forget that when Elizabeth I formed what in effect became the diplomatic service, she did so on the basis of trade, not diplomacy. Many years ago, when I worked with officials in British embassies to try to get our equipment exported to various countries, I dealt with diplomats who had never been in trade and had no interest in it—I think that they rather looked down on it—and yet trade, indirectly, paid their wages.
  There has been a transformation since 1979: now, people working in the commercial sections of our embassies and high commissions are often borrowed from industry or have joined the diplomatic service from the Department of Trade and Industry. That is to be welcomed because it strengthens our exports.
  Both Conservative and Opposition Members have mentioned the BBC World Service. I join them in congratulating the BBC on the effectiveness of that

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  service, which lies not only in the quality of its broadcasts but in the quantity of its listeners. Although the World Service is now being broadcast in FM stereo in many places, which means that it can be received on ordinary domestic radio sets, most listeners have to find it on short wave, which is quite a complicated process; yet it can boast more listeners than Radio Russia—formerly the Radio Moscow World Service, to which I had the privilege of supplying equipment and services—Deutsche Welle, Radio Beijing and the Voice of America combined. It is an incredible balancing act to maintain the quality of broadcasting and the quantity of listeners. Domestically, the BBC has often failed to broadcast politically unbiased programmes and to provide worthwhile programming that attracts listeners. A good example of that is Radio 3, compared with Classic FM.
  I am pleased that there is a continued desire for Turkey to join the European Union. Turkey is part of the cornerstone of Europe. I look forward to hearing more about Turkey from my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, North (Mr. Elletson); I know that he visited Turkey in the summer and has learnt the rather complex Turkish language.
  Greece presents certain problems. Hon. Members will recall that Greece has had disputes with Macedonia, which it tried to prevent from using that name, and with various other countries. I hope that, if we can resolve the Cyprus problem, Greece will decide that now is the time to absorb Turkey into the European Union, provided that it is economically safe to do so. Turkey is an important nation and deserves to be a member, closely following the Czech Republic, Poland and Hungary.
  Russia has genuine concerns about the expansion of NATO. Hon. Members have said that Russia should be reassured that NATO is not an offensive power on its borders but a defensive power and a force for good. It is all too easy to forget that, throughout its history, Russia has felt beleaguered and encircled by hostile neighbours. At a time when Russia is going through great difficulties, it is important to reassure it that NATO is not a force for imperialism or for evil and that it will not jeopardise the Russian people but will provide stability and strengthen the very safety that Russia seeks.
  Li Lanqing, the vice-premier of China, is coming here next week. I hope that my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary will tell him that we are concerned about religious persecution in China and in provinces such as Tibet, to which the Dalai Lama is still unable to return, and that no one has forgotten the massacre in Tiananmen square. Incidentally, people in China know about Tiananmen square largely through BBC World Service broadcasts in Mandarin and Cantonese and through the satellite transmissions—which have, sadly, now stopped—of BBC Television on the Star network.
  I was delighted to hear that the hon. Member for South Shields (Dr. Clark) had caught up with the Tories on defence. I should like to claim some credit for that. He will recall that, in 1987, he and I fought a reasonably clean battle for the South Shields constituency; much to my surprise, he won. It is quite clear, however, that my arguments on defence got through to him. Only a few years ago, the Labour party was criticising our deployment of cruise and Pershing missiles in response to the deployment of SS20s by the Warsaw pact; I firmly
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  believe that the west's resolution in deploying those missiles was one of the factors in the break-up of the communist regime in the Soviet Union.
  Dr. David Clark: The mists of time have affected the hon. Gentleman's memory. We had a good, clean fight. I shall not remind him of my majority, but it was considerable. Before he gets too carried away on unilateralism, I should like to point out that I resigned as the deputy Labour spokesman on defence in 1981 when the party went unilateralist because I was a multilateralist.
  Mr. Fabricant: I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman has said that, because it confirms two points: first, that he is a decent sort of fellow; and, secondly, that the Labour party was unilateralist and, I believe, jeopardised the peace as a consequence. Our strength at that time maintained the peace and resulted in our winning the cold war, bringing democracy to the poor benighted people of Russia.
  The Minister of State for Defence Procurement (Mr. James Arbuthnot): I should point out to my hon. Friend that the hon. Member for South Shields (Dr. Clark) has still not answered the question that he was asked last week; why, if he was a multilateralist, did he say that he would not be prepared to use nuclear weapons, destroying the point of having a nuclear deterrent?
  Mr. Fabricant: That is a disturbing thing to hear. There is no point in having nuclear weapons if the potential enemy believes that we would never use them. They have to be there as a deterrent. Please God, nuclear weapons will never be used in action, but they have to exist as a deterrent and they must be credible. Nuclear weapons have no credibility unless people believe that a country is prepared to use them.
  Ms Angela Eagle: Nuclear weapons have been used.
  Mr. Fabricant: The hon. Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle), in her high-pitched voice, is criticising the fact that nuclear weapons have to be available and—[Interruption.] Would the hon. Lady like to intervene?
  Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Janet Fookes): Order. Seated interventions are not welcome to the Chair.
  Mr. Fabricant: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. They are not welcome to me either.
  The Leader of the Opposition has talked about his role model being Margaret Thatcher. He now finds himself crossed with the Archbishop of Canterbury with his views on morality. It is interesting that he, too, has caught up with the Tories on defence. I am not convinced by that, but it is reassuring that he has seen the light. But why should anyone go for the imitation when they can have the real thing?
  The right hon. Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook) asked why we were so opposed to the social chapter, saying that the minimum wage would be a marvellous thing. If it is so marvellous, why does the Labour party not say what the minimum wage should be? I suppose that, if the Conservative party wanted to go for cheap votes, we could say that we liked the idea of a minimum

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  wage and then set it at a very low rate of 10p or 20p an hour. Labour Members are not prepared to put their commitment where their mouths are, so we do not know what their commitment to the minimum wage is. As in so many other areas, there is no beef to their policy; they just make empty promises.
  The right hon. Member for Livingston welcomed works councils. We should not forget that the Conservative party first came up with the idea of stakeholding, and promoted it. In previous Budgets, the Conservative party has encouraged employee share participation and has given employees the chance to own shares in their company and gain tax relief on them.
  We have had an interesting debate. I am pleased that we have four pillars on which to pursue our foreign policy: strengthening our position in Europe; strengthening the transatlantic alliance; encouraging world trade; and promoting our relationship with the developing tigers in the far east.
  If the World Trade Organisation can reach its objectives by 2020, there will be free trade throughout the developed world. I should like to pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister who, some years ago—in this Parliament—successfully ensured the passage of the general agreement on tariffs and trade Uruguay round, which led to the formation of the WTO.
  Speaking controversially as an individual, not as a member of the Government—because I am not—by 2020 we may not need the European Union. If there is free trade between all developed countries, we shall have free access not only to all the European countries for trade, but to north America and the far east. I hope that that will be so. In the meantime, I commend the Queen's Speech to the House and I commend the speech made this afternoon by my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary.
  6.45 pm
  Mr. David Trimble: We are focusing today on the aspects of the Gracious Speech relating to defence and foreign affairs. You will appreciate, Madam Deputy Speaker, that it is with mixed feelings that I note that the ambit of our debate on foreign affairs has been widened by the inclusion in the foreign affairs section of the Gracious Speech of a reference to Northern Ireland. That is unwelcome to my hon. Friends and me, as well as to the people of Northern Ireland.
  Unfortunately, the practice of including the reference to Northern Ireland in the foreign affairs section of the Gracious Speech developed more than 20 years ago. It was precisely 20 years ago that the former hon. Member for South Down, Mr. Enoch Powell, framed and tabled an amendment to the motion on the Loyal Address on behalf of the Ulster Unionist party. It is with regret that we have to repeat that amendment exactly. There was a period when the reference to Northern Ireland was in the right section of the Gracious Speech, but for some reason it has slipped back in the past couple of years. That sends the wrong signals to a host of people. I am not sure why it is done and I should appreciate an explanation from the Government.
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  I note the references in the Gracious Speech to the fight against terrorism and the commitment
  "to promote respect for human rights and the international rule of law."
  I should like to address the latter topic first, drawing the attention of the House in particular to the way in which human rights and international law have been used, are being used and can be used to resolve conflicts in many parts of Europe.
  Several references have been made during the debate to central and eastern Europe. Hon. Members will know that there is the potential for conflict in many areas of central and eastern Europe, where national boundaries do not correspond precisely with ethnic and national groups. In some areas, such potential conflict has been defused by recourse to concepts worked out in human rights law, and in particular the principles developed in recent years by what is now called the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe.
  I shall refer in particular to the treaty between Hungary and Romania concluded on 16 September this year. Hon. Members will know that there are significant minority problems in Romania, which has between 1.7 million and 2 million Hungarians, living mainly in Transylvania. Hungarians continue to suffer ill-treatment by the Romanian Government.
  The issue was drawn to my attention last September, when I had the honour of being included in the United Kingdom delegation to the Inter-Parliamentary Union. During my visit to Bucharest, I attended a meeting of all the bishops in Romania except those of the Orthodox Church. In Romania, Churches are organised on a communal basis. The Orthodox Church is ethnically Romanian, while the other Churches—the Roman Catholic. Reformed, Presbyterian and Unitarian Churches—are all ethnically Hungarian. I met the bishops of the Hungarian Churches, who told me about the discrimination suffered by the Hungarian minority at the hands of the Romanian Government.
  That is a matter of great concern, in a part of Europe where boundaries were changed in the 1920s and 1940s. I hope that the potential for conflict is defused by the treaty between the Governments of Hungary and Romania.
  It will come as no surprise to the House to hear that I very much approve of article 4 to that treaty. Let me briefly draw attention to its main provision:
  "The Contracting Parties confirm that, in accordance with the principles and norms of international law and the principles of the Helsinki Final Act, they shall respect the inviolability of their common border and the territorial integrity of the other Party. They further confirm that they have no territorial claims on each other and that they shall not raise any such claims in the future."
  I note that they regard that as being in accordance with the principles and norms of international law, and they are quite right. The Governments concerned appear to agree that the basic principle for addressing the potential for conflict with national minorities in central and eastern Europe is respect for existing frontiers and the complete absence of territorial claims.
  That is generally accepted, even in regions where the existing borders are not ideal. I am thinking particularly of the justifiable argument that citizens of Crimea could raise in regard to the inclusion of Crimea in the Ukraine. They could claim that it was a rather capricious act of Stalin in the late 1940s. It had no significance at the time as both

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  countries were part of the USSR, but now it has considerable significance for the mainly Russian population of the Crimea. The Russian Government have been careful not to raise even the suspicion of a territorial claim to that area.
  The treaty between Hungary and Romania deals with all aspects of the relationship between the two countries, particularly with provisions to protect the rights of national minorities. I shall not deal with them in detail, but the starting point is for the two Governments to accept and to apply as legal obligations the extensive provisions defining the rights of persons belonging to national minorities and religious groups as contained in certain instruments of the United Nations and the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe.
  It is obvious where the argument leads. Romania and Hungary are not alone in experiencing such problems. The same is happening in other parts of central and eastern Europe, such as the Baltic states, which have substantial ethnic minorities. The solution to minority issues in those countries will probably be along the lines of the agreement between Romania and Hungary.
  I am not suggesting that the treaty is perfect; I know that the Romanian minority is disappointed that no provision has been made for autonomy for the regions where the Hungarians form local majorities. There is a strong argument for making extensive provisions for local autonomy in such circumstances. However, the agreement sets out the basic principles for dealing with minority issues, which will probably be applied in the Baltic states.
  As the Gracious Speech refers to promoting respect for international instruments, why do the Government resolutely refuse to apply the principles contained in agreements to which the United Kingdom is party to the minority problem and the conflict within the British Isles? Instead of following the example of the rest of Europe and implementing agreements that the British and Irish Governments have entered into, we are saddled with the failed Anglo-Irish Agreement. I make no apology for describing it as having failed; one has only to look at the record of the past 11 years. Events this summer demonstrated the complete bankruptcy of that agreement, which is now used as an instrument to create trouble rather than peace.
  The Anglo-Irish Agreement was entered into before most of the OSCE instruments that are now being applied. Why are the Government not prepared seriously to consider replacing it with something along the lines of the agreement entered into between Romania and Hungary?
  The OSCE agreements and accords contain provisions that enable any country involved in the OSCE to raise issues with regard to other countries. I am thinking particularly of the Moscow mechanism, which enables countries to raise questions about the treatment of minorities in other countries, and the Copenhagen accord, which established the Commissioner for National Minorities. Those two instruments constitute a mechanism for some external supervision of the treatment of minorities. If the Irish Government have an interest in ensuring fair treatment of the Irish nationalist minority in the United Kingdom, the OSCE Commissioner for National Minorities and the Moscow mechanism represent a means by which they can reflect that interest. The procedure and machinery established by the failed agreement of 1985 is now redundant. It has been overtaken by events and developments in European law.
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  The Gracious Speech also refers to the fight against terrorism—a matter of real concern in my part of the United Kingdom and to the citizens of London in view of the warnings about renewed terrorist activity by Sinn Fein-IRA. We are glad that the security forces succeeded in foiling major outrages here in London in June and September. Any problems and deficiencies that might have crept into the intelligence network during the IRA ceasefire have obviously been repaired to the extent that vigilance was successful. We accept that one cannot always be successful if one thinks merely in terms of defending targets. For various reasons, lapses may occur and the bomb may get through. The incident at Thiepval barracks in Lisburn underlines that point.
  We need more than just a defensive response; we need to do more than just try to defend the likely targets of terrorist aggression. We need a more positive security response. I think that people throughout the United Kingdom are somewhat surprised that, in the months since 9 February when IRA-Sinn Fein resumed violence, the Government have not been more active and that it has taken so long for a security response to terrorism to develop. I hope that things on that front will change in the near future. I should refer also to the Prime Minister's comments yesterday on terrorism and the position of Sinn Fein with regard to the inter-party talks. With reference to the renewal of violence by Sinn Fein-IRA, I particularly note that he said:
  "That is plainly incompatible with joining the talks. They have excluded themselves by their return to violence".
  The phrase, "They have excluded themselves" is significant. He did not say that they are excluding themselves. It is quite definite that they have excluded themselves. That must surely mean that we have reached a point where the possibility of Sinn Fein-IRA entering the process has gone. The Government may want to use a formula suggesting that the theoretical possibility is open, but in the real world we must acknowledge that it has gone. That was reinforced by the Prime Minister's comments that
  "The IRA and Sinn Fein should be under no illusion that they can join the process until they have demonstrated real commitment to democratic and non-violent methods." —[Official Report, 23 October 1996; Vol. 284, c. 31–32.]
  If one is to use such language, which appears to hold open the possibility of a return by Sinn Fein to the political process, it is necessary at present to spell out precisely what is meant by a
  "real commitment to democratic and non-violent methods."
  We do not want a repeat of the situation in 1994, when ambiguous formulas were used. The Government hummed and hawed about their response and made working assumptions, which have since been disproved by events. We need precision as to what is meant by a ceasefire in this context.
  We also need to deal with the associated issue of the decommissioning of terrorist weapons. I shall not go into detail—certainly not into the detail in which the matter is being discussed at the inter-party talks in the Stormont grounds at the moment, where I think that about three whole days have been devoted to the debate and only three people have spoken.
  Another three whole days on the issue have been promised for next week, so I shall not go into detail save to say that in the paper that we published on 30 September, we were careful to identify the minimum

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  necessary commitments to be given by the Government on legislation, establishment of the international verification commission, the procedure to be followed if Sinn Fein ever entered the process and the timetable to be observed at that point. They are minimum requirements.
  I am rather disappointed by the reference in the Gracious Speech to the legislation on decommissioning. It says that the Government merely
  "stand ready to introduce legislation."
  I had gathered from bilateral discussions with the Government that their position was not passive, but active. I had been given the impression that the legislation would be dealt with in November. Consequently, I was disappointed at the answer given to my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, South (Rev. Martin Smyth), when he asked in business questions earlier when the Second Reading of the Bill would be. He discovered that it would not be in the first tranche of Second Readings, and the Leader of the House was unable to give any precise guidance on when it would be. That is very disappointing and, again, is sending the wrong signals. We need that legislation to be under way as quickly as possible. I shall give way to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he wishes to comment.
  The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Sir Patrick Mayhew): I could not resist an invitation of that character. I was reaching for Hansard, because I have a clear recollection of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister saying that the legislation will be introduced. I realise the point that the hon. Gentleman is making about the Gracious Speech, but I have a very clear recollection of my right hon. Friend saying in his speech in the House yesterday that it will be introduced. Further than that I will not go for the moment.
  Mr. Trimble: I am glad that the Secretary of State says that the legislation will be introduced. He knows that my immediate supplementary question is: when?
  This is a very important issue. In the inter-party talks, we are trying to obtain firm assurances from the Government about the timetable for legislation, the verification commission and the other matters that I mentioned.
  It is important that hon. Members realise the point that we have made in this context. We are not saying that the talks should mark time until the legislation is on the statute book or the verification commission established. We have said that, depending on the quality of assurances given on those matters, we would be prepared for the talks process to move forward into substantive issues in—perhaps—even just the next few weeks. That depends on whether we obtain adequate assurances and an adequate definition of what constitutes a ceasefire. The Prime Minister's words yesterday go some way in that direction, but in view of the plasticity of language and the experiences of 1994–95, we should like things to be tied down with greater precision.
  Rev. Martin Smyth: Does my hon. Friend agree that there is a need for not just assurances and clarity from Her Majesty's Government? We are concerned that they do not fall into the trap that previous
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  Governments fell into, by accepting assurances from the Irish Government that things would be done that were not done.
  Mr. Trimble: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. To underline his point, one can only highlight the contrast between the statement made yesterday by the Prime Minister on that matter, and those made yesterday by the Irish Foreign Minister. The contrast is massive, but then, we have experience of the views of the Irish Foreign Minister in talks at Stormont, where he has not made a positive contribution at all.
  I was holding open the possibility that the talks could move forward to deal with substantive issues if undertakings were given on the ceasefire and decommissioning. It is our hope that the talks will move to substantive issues, but if they are to do so, it needs to be done quickly. The election timetable will, as it were, set an end point to serious discussion, as electoral considerations come to dominate the parties' attitude. Indeed, such considerations have already dominated the attitude of some parties. If anything serious is to be done, it must be done quickly. We have made that point repeatedly to the other parties in the talks and I hope that there is a response.
  If were to move into substantive talks, I would not at the moment envisage any great advantage in becoming involved in lengthy discussions on what are called strand 1 issues. They were debated at considerable length in the inter-party talks in 1992. We were very close to agreement. Although the document on which we were close to agreement is not perfect and could benefit from revision, I do not think that any party will move away from the principles contained in it. With that, as it were, under our belt, I do not envisage any great advantage in entering into substantive or lengthy discussion.
  The inter-party talks of 1992 did not succeed on issues in what are called strands 2 and 3, which relate to the relationship between Northern Ireland and, indeed, the whole of the United Kingdom, and the Republic of Ireland. Obviously, what should be discussed and when, will be a matter for agreement among the parties to the talks. But it will be argued that if we are moving into substantive discussion, we should move quickly to focus on strand 2 and strand 3 issues—the relationship between the Republic of Ireland and both the United Kingdom in general and Northern Ireland in particular. We should focus on those subjects, and see whether we can make progress in dealing with the issues on which there was not agreement in 1992.
  It will be no surprise to hear me say that the way to resolve those difficulties is to look at the models of good practice elsewhere in Europe that were mentioned earlier, and to consider the principles contained in the instruments of the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe.
  The difficulties encountered in 1992 can also be resolved by examining them on a wider basis. In 1992, there was far too much emphasis on the narrow issue of what is known as the relationship between Belfast and Dublin. That relationship is better considered in a wider context, which is, of course, the British Isles as a whole. Within that context, the issues will be easier to resolve.
  That is not simply a formal matter; the wider context is the real context. Although there are a certain number of interactions on an economic, human and social basis on

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  the north-south axis, east-west interactions, both between Belfast and the rest of the United Kingdom and between, say, Dublin and London, are much greater. So there is a real common interest in looking at things in the wider context.
  That is not a new idea. I believe that it was my predecessor as leader, my right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley (Sir J. Molyneaux), who used the term "a council of the British Isles". My hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, South will remember the phrase "the community of the British Isles", with which we have both been associated in the past. That was more than 20 years ago, but it still represents the right context within which to consider the issues.
  The Romanian-Hungarian treaty runs to a good dozen pages, but it does not find it necessary to start creating elaborate structures to provide for the many occasions and features of co-operation between the two countries. It merely refers, in article 5, to the parties' establishing
  "an appropriate framework for co-operation".
  I am fairly certain that that framework will not be an institution with political significance, and it will definitely not be an embryonic joint Romanian-Hungarian Government.
  Rev. Martin Smyth: Does my hon. Friend recognise that such informal arrangements already exist, in so far as the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland have a common migration interest because they form a common migration zone?
  Mr. Trimble: My hon. Friend is right to mention the free travel area that exists throughout the British Isles. That has implications that affect immigration control and other matters, and that reinforces the argument for dealing with such matters within the larger context. That is the way in which we should proceed.
  I hope that there will be an opportunity for the parties to start dealing with the substantive issues in the corning weeks. But first the issues of ceasefire and decommissioning must be adequately dealt with. All the parties involved in the talks must be willing to commit themselves to talking on the existing basis.
  That means going ahead without Sinn Fein, and we hope that there is a willingness to do that—although the comments by the Irish Foreign Minister yesterday reminded us that his close associate, one Mr. Fergus Finlay, said that talks without Sinn Fein were not worth a penny candle. The question will be whether the Irish Government still regard Sinn Fein as more important than all the other parties in Northern Ireland put together. That is a profoundly depressing and anti-democratic state of mind, and I hope that it is not representative of the Irish Government as a whole. That Government will need to declare their mind quickly, so that we can take advantage of the opportunity before us.
  7.14 pm
  Mr. Edward Garnier: The hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble) began his speech by expressing concern about the Northern Ireland section of the humble Address being included in the foreign affairs day. However, I believe that whenever the hon. Gentleman speaks he will be listened to with great attention, and it may even be to his advantage to be
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  required to speak in a foreign affairs debate as he may be listened to with even greater attention today than would have been the case had he had to contend with social security or some of the other rather less exciting domestic issues.
  It is fair to remind the hon. Gentleman, too, that today's debate is not about foreign affairs alone but also about defence and it is sad but true that Northern Ireland has greatly concerned him and his colleagues, as well as the rest of us, as a matter of defence. However, I assure him that from my point of view not only as a Conservative Member of Parliament but as a former pupil of Friends school, Lisburn, I consider Northern Ireland to be very much a domestic, British, United Kingdom issue. I hope that he will be reassured to some extent by those words, delivered from my little haven on these Benches.
  When the hon. Gentleman took us off to Romania and Hungary, I was a little concerned that he had been seduced into joining my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Staffordshire (Mr. Fabricant) in a journey around the international radio dial. However, I was thankful to see that the hon. Gentleman's mind was far too subtle for that and that he was merely addressing us in symbolic terms about the concerns of his Province.
  I shall concentrate on a narrow aspect of foreign affairs—the concerns involving Bosnia-Herzegovina. Hon. Members will know that these were mentioned in the Gracious Speech. In the printed version, the passage appeared at the bottom of page 1 thus:
  "My Government will continue actively to support peace in Bosnia and Herzegovina, encouraging full compliance with the Peace Agreement and promoting reconciliation between the former warring parties."
  The subject was also referred to, by a side wind, as it were, just above the paragraph that concerned the hon. Member for Upper Bann, in a passage which said:
  "A substantial aid programme will be maintained to help improve the quality of life in poorer countries, by contributing to sustainable development and reducing poverty and suffering."
  My only experience of Bosnia and Herzegovina has been a short stay there as one of the 40 British international observers monitoring the elections on 14 September this year. I was one of eight or nine British Members of Parliament in the group. Others were what I would call professional election watchers, while yet others were local government officers. All those people had art interest in seeing that the elections which formed part of the consequences of the Dayton agreement passed off successfully and it is fair to say that as elections, by and large, procedurally they passed off reasonably well.
  My experience was limited to spending a few days in Brcko, a town which sits on the crux of the two halves of the Republika Srpska, on the River Sava, pushed up against Croatia and on the northern border of the Muslim-Croat federation. Because of that geographical position, the town is seen by all the parties in Bosnia-Herzegovina and in Serbia proper as strategically important. The Dayton agreement did not settle its status or say into which part of the new country it should go. Indeed, it is yet to be decided whether Brcko should be part of the federation or should remain, as militarily it now is, in the Republika Srpska.
  I want to dwell not on that, however, but on the civilian, or civil, side of the former Yugoslavia problem. We must concentrate on that, given that the fighting is at an end and given the great strides achieved by IFOR in maintaining the peace since the Dayton agreement.

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  I was looking earlier at the Library paper of 9 July entitled, "The Dayton Agreement: Progress in Implementation". It contains a number of statements, and I wonder whether two of these still hold true in the post-election period. On page 30, the document says:
  "The contradiction between the relative success of the military implementation of the Dayton Agreement and the relative lack of success in the implementation of the civil wing of the agreement gives rise to consideration of the future of the western military presence in Bosnia".
  The second statement is:
  "Although the warring factions have more or less stuck to the letter of the Dayton Agreement, they have not entered into its spirit. While the war has ceased, there is little freedom of movement, actual or even desired, between the three ethnically defined areas of Bosnia".
  My limited experience has been gained from my observations of what was happening on the ground in Banja Luka—where I landed in an Italian military aircraft following a flight from Vienna—and Brcko, where I went other observers. I spent some time in the Brcko area, meeting and speaking with local people, and I would suggest that the two statements that I have quoted remain true, even though they were published in July.
  The elections—as elections—were successful, but I fear that they have not so much unified the new republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina as consolidated the ethnic differences. I spoke to Bosnian Serbs in the voting queues at the 15 polling stations that I was monitoring, some of which were in bombed-out buildings and bullet-riddled schools. Two of the stations were in military tents provided by the US forces, as Brcko was in the US sector. The impression that I gained from many of the voters was that the one thing that they did not want was the proper reunification of Bosnia-Herzegovina. They wanted to consolidate the differences and make sure that the Muslims and Croats did not come back to the area to live in their former homes. That is a fact of life, and I fear that we must live with it.
  That leads me to suggest that the second statement is true—that the people have stuck to the letter of the Dayton agreement, but not to its spirit. The conversations that I had with the voters of Brcko, and other evidence that I saw, confirmed to me that—as the Library paper suggests—while the war has ceased, there is
  "little freedom of movement, actual or even desired".
  People are not prepared to move across the inner zone that separates the Republika Srpska and the Bosnian Muslim Federation.
  I had to travel on one occasion from Brcko to another Republika Srpska town called Doboj. The quickest route would have been to cut straight across the federation, but our drivers refused to cross the boundary despite the fact that the war was supposed to have ended. We had to take a much longer route because no Serb from Bosnia-Herzegovina would ever want to be seen in the federation—just a few miles across the boundary.
  The fact that there is still a ceasefire and that progress is being made on the Dayton agreement is greatly due to the work of the British forces in Bosnia. I was fortunate to land in Banja Luka, the headquarters of the British division, where I met Major-General Kiszley, the general officer commanding. I was able to discuss the operation
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  with him and with others on his staff. I was then able to compare the role of the British forces with that of the United States forces in their sector.
  The comparison was stark. I do not blame the military leaders of the United States sector, who are following political orders. However, it appeared to me—and, it is fair to say, to the people of Brcko—that the United States forces resembled an army of occupation, whereas the British troops appeared to the people of Banja Luka and the north-west sector to be a quite different military force. Our forces do not go around in full military armour or in convoys with machine guns glistening out of military vehicles. Our troops look relaxed, although they are not relaxed in any sense that would suggest military negligence. But my impression was that they were there to assist rather than to confront, as I felt the Americans appeared to the residents of Brcko. As a consequence, the British forces are welcomed and are treated in a far different way from the way in which, the Americans are treated in their sector.
  I do not blame the US forces. It is not their fault that the President has made it clear that he is not prepared to accept any casualties between now and 5 November. But the point is that the British forces can do things in their sector that will have a more long-lasting effect than anything that the American forces can do in theirs.
  What are the British forces doing, and what can we encourage them to do, in their sector? Much has been said about the need to develop the infrastructure and the civilian economy of that war-torn country, and that is correct. The Library paper contains a chapter headed "Progress in reconstruction" which mentions the huge sums of foreign aid that were promised following the Dayton agreement. At the first international conference on reconstruction—held on 20 and 21 December 1995 after the Dayton agreement—the European Union and the World bank promised $500 million of aid, or capital
  "freed up for priority reconstruction projects in the first four months of 1996".
  Further promises of huge sums of money were made, and the Library paper states that
  "the European Union pledged $100 million, the United States $63 million and the World Bank $150 million. France, which insisted on an equal distribution of the financial burden, pledged $4 million."
  All of that is very well, but little of the money has hit the target. We hear great words at international conferences about the huge sums of capital to be used to rebuild the country, but very little of the money is doing the work that it should.
  My central point is that we must contrast those promises with the rather more effective work of the British armed forces and the Overseas Development Administration in the north-west sector. In that sector, little groups of British men and women have worked with local people in small projects—not great civil engineering projects, such as building new motorways and new railways. They are doing what is required now—building new medical centres and primary schools, or rebuilding the small bridges across the little streams and rivers of north-west Bosnia-Herzegovina. They are improving education and health and improving the infrastructure on a small scale. They are improving the water and sanitation systems and creating employment.
  That is happening because the British soldiers and the ODA—which has devoted not hundreds of millions of dollars, but a little under $10 million—have been able to

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  be direct. It is as if they have gone around with a suitcase of money, and said to local people, "Go and rebuild that school. Here is the money and the equipment to do it. If you need a tractor, here is a Royal Engineer with a tractor to help you." It is small-scale, I admit, but it is effective; it is working and it is doing wonderful things for the reputation of the British Government, the British Army and the way we do things in that part of the world. Out of that, I trust that greater things will grow, because we have regained the confidence of the people of that part of Bosnia-Herzegovina in a way that the Americans, for all the reasons that I have explained, could never do. As a consequence, I trust that we shall maintain a British military presence in Bosnia-Herzegovina after the end of the IFOR mission.
  I think that most people now agree that there will have to be some form of NATO military presence in the former Yugoslavia after 1996. It may have to be smaller, but in my view it is essential that Britain remains there and remains a major force within the peacekeeping arrangements stationed there after 1996. I trust that we shall see not only that that is the right thing to do but that it will be in our commercial interest in the long term, because out of these small projects I trust that we shall have so gained the confidence of the people of that country that they will, when it comes to sorting out the bigger problems—the railways, telecommunications, big roads, canal projects, river projects, and so on—come to Britain, the country that came to their aid straight away and was effective, and give the work to the big British companies, the big infrastructure civil engineers, and so on.
  The Overseas Development Administration is frequently traduced by Members of Parliament and by people outside, but today is a day to sing its praises for the work that, in alliance with the British forces in the north-west sector of Bosnia, it has quietly but most effectively been carrying out.
  Before bringing my remarks to an end, I apologise to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for the fact that regrettably I shall not be here for the winding-up speeches. I have informed my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence and I have passed a message to the Opposition spokesman, the hon. Member for South Shields (Dr. Clark). I trust that my absence will not be treated as a discourtesy to the House.
  7.31 pm
  Mr. Mike Watson: I found the speech of the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Mr. Garnier) interesting, because I have been quite close to developments in Bosnia-Herzegovina over the years and have heard experiences, similar to those that he reported, from a friend of mine who works for a non-governmental organisation and was there at the time of the elections. He reported great difficulty in moving around. That, perhaps, is not surprising given the events in that troubled country over the past five years or so. He also came back with a number of reports that lead me to believe that although peace has, thankfully, reigned for a year now and Dayton has largely been complied with, there are all sorts of problems. Although people are putting the war behind them and getting on with the rest of their lives, rebuilding their lives and their country, many people are still categorised as missing, their whereabouts unknown. That is particularly true of the horrific events that took place in and around Srebrenica
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  in the summer of last year, when so many people were herded out of the town and into the countryside and have never been heard of since. One can only have the worst fears about what happened to them.
  The friend to whom I referred was not allowed to go to Srebrenica or cross the river in Mostar and go into the Croatian part of that city. While such no-go areas survive and people harbour suspicions, which are inevitable after the horrific events of any war, but particularly this one, we are some way from being able to say that things have returned to anything like an acceptable level in that country. It is important that we learn the lessons from what happened there, particularly in the context of the earlier remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Ross) in relation to Rwanda and Zaire and the actions of the United Nations. We have to look at reforming important aspects of the United Nations' work, because terrible delays have led to the deaths of thousands of people in Bosnia-Herzegovina over the past few years, and we must make every effort to ensure that they do not recur. If we can do that by reforming the way in which the United Nations operates, we must seize that opportunity.
  I shall confine my remarks mainly to Europe and the European Union—a subject that was given an airing earlier by the Foreign Secretary and his opposite number, my right hon. Friend the Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook). Europe is now more widely discussed among the people of this country than at any other time. That does not necessarily mean that it is particularly well understood, and that situation is highlighted now that a general election is on the horizon. For far too long, the reluctance of the Conservative party—the party of government for the past 17 years—to be involved in anything to do with Europe has prevented this country from playing a meaningful role, from punching its weight, in concert with our fellow European Union members.
  Over the years we have seen a succession of Ministers pursue policies but confine their efforts rather than apply pressure to the accelerator. Indeed, in defiant fashion, they have applied the brake wherever possible—quite often with evident glee. That has had the entirely predictable effect of condemning this country to the margins of the European Union. That is not a position that I and many other hon. Members believe that we should adopt. That is particularly so in the Council of Ministers.
  When I visit Brussels and Strasbourg, Members of the European Parliament—from various parties, not just those from the left—cannot understand the British mentality: why the Conservative party is so anti-European. Even Conservative Members who profess to be pro-European come across in European terms as anti-European. Members of the European Parliament—indeed, some Ministers of some member states—are becoming increasingly fractious over the behaviour of British Ministers who adopt that approach and use the veto as though they were playing a joker in a game of cards. They are a bit like the child who takes his ball home if the game is not going just the way that he wants. That desultory approach was encapsulated by my colleague, Wayne David, a Member of the European Parliament and leader of the parliamentary Labour party. Writing in The House magazine, he said:
  "Surely, we should recognise that using the national veto is not a reflection of political virility, but a sign of political failure. To promote Britain's national interests our approach should be based on engaging with our partners and winning the argument, instead of standing to one side and shouting the loudest."

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  Fortunately, we can say with relative confidence that the days when Britain and its representatives are the lone—indeed, the lonely—voice in Europe are drawing to a close. Within six months, there is a good possibility that this country will have a Government, a Prime Minister and a Cabinet who will all identify with our fellow Europeans and view them as friends with whom we can build a prosperous Europe rather than one that, it seems, is determined to rob us of our sovereignty, which is an argument with which we are continually faced.
  That sea change will not come a moment too soon, but it will come just soon enough for influence to be brought to bear in the intergovernmental conference, as it draws to a conclusion. It will also be in time to set a positive agenda for the period when Britain will have the presidency of the Council of Ministers in the first half of 1998. I echo the remarks of my right hon. Friend the Member for Livingston, who said that there was no mention in the Foreign Secretary's opening remarks about the agenda for 1998 or the fact that Britain enters the troika in the middle of 1997. I do not know, but that may simply reflect the Foreign Secretary's view that, having looked at the political scene, having surveyed it, read the runes and listened to the pollsters, he feels that neither he nor his party will be in government at that time. That might well be a realistic conclusion to arrive at, but it is remiss of the Foreign Secretary, at a crucial time in the development of Europe, to have nothing to say about what Britain might put into the troika, and its period of presidency.
  Mr. Nigel Evans: This is interesting, but what does the hon. Gentleman have to say—he is obviously having a bit of fun pointing the finger at the Conservative Government—about the 15 Labour Members who are also members of a splinter group that disagrees fundamentally with the position of the leader of the Labour party? They feel that the Labour party would take them too deeply into Europe and they fundamentally disagree with the position that the right hon. Gentleman takes.
  Mr. Watson: They have overreacted to the Labour party's proposals. It would be fatuous to suggest that there are no differences of opinion on Europe in the Labour party. Of course there are, but I believe that they are neither as wide nor as deep as those in the Conservative party. Not all Labour Members are in agreement, but the party policy advocated by my right hon. Friends the Members for Sedgefield (Mr. Blair) and for Livingston and others is accepted by an overwhelming majority of the party.
  Labour party policy is arrived at democratically after a healthy debate. Party members understand that, and can live with it. That does not prevent people from arguing a different point of view. The hon. Members to whom the hon. Gentleman referred have certain fears and are prepared to argue their case, but that does not alter the position of an incoming Labour Government.
  An incoming Labour Government will begin the process of bringing this country into line with the rest of the European Union. I was not poking fun at the hon. Gentleman's party. It is not a light-hearted issue, and I am not trying to score cheap political points. I have given
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  a factual description of the way in which this country has been represented in Europe in recent years. This is a serious matter.
  One of the first ways in which an incoming Labour Government would make it clear that their approach to the European Union is different would be to sign up to the social chapter. At the beginning of the debate—at this time of night, that seems a long time ago, because some of us have been here since 2.58 pm—my right hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore) referred to the social chapter, and said that he did not understand what everyone was getting excited about. He described it as an empty satchel. That is going over the score. I think that there is much less in the social chapter than many people have suggested, but that is not to say that it is not worth having.
  Signing up to the social chapter will have an important psychological function. It will send a message to the rest of Europe, and to people in Britain, that Britain's new Government are now willing to play a more proactive role in Europe. The message will be that the Labour Government are speaking on behalf of not only the millions of people who elected them, but the millions who did not vote Labour for various reasons but none the less largely support the position on Europe advocated by the Labour party. They want Britain's relationship with Europe to be inclusive. That would be an early indication of a change in government.
  Signing up to the social chapter will strengthen employment rights, although that will do no more than give British workers the same rights as workers in other countries have had, in many cases for some considerable time. Co-operation on employment policy and the creation of a level playing field will be the inevitable result of the development of the European Union. That level playing field will prevent unscrupulous employers from reducing pay and conditions, seeking the lowest common denominator and trading on the job insecurity that the Government have done their best to foster. The work force have been cowed, and in their desperation for work they will take jobs no matter what protection has been removed, even if they are part time and lack any security.
  The application of the social chapter will allow fair employment practices to apply in this country as they have in other countries for many years. I cannot understand how that can be seen as a disadvantage to British industry. The Government have less faith in the ability of British industry to compete with its European counterparts than have many of its leading players.
  Last week, the Institute of Management revealed the results of a survey that showed—this may have been uncomfortable, indeed embarrassing, for the Government—that three out of four British managers believed that the Conservative party's hostility to Europe had damaged British business. The scare stories about the effects of the social chapter are not borne out by many leading industrialists in this country, who are certainly not Labour supporters. They do not expect to be placed at a disadvantage by the application of the social chapter.
  As has been mentioned on more than one occasion in the debate, the introduction of works councils by many major employers, despite the Government's warnings, reflects that view. I refer to companies such as Coats Viyella, United Biscuits and Pilkington. In the past two years, I have been privileged to hold an Industry and

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  Parliament Trust fellowship at Pilkington. When I visited its head office in St. Helens, that was one of the issues that I discussed with its senior human resources management staff. They made it clear that in its plants in Sweden, Germany and Italy, it was a great advantage to be able to bring together management and staff to discuss issues to their mutual benefit and to the company's benefit. There was no implicit threat, because both sides saw the advantages. Where works councils work effectively—as they do in many other European countries—they are not seen as a threat to management's right to manage, nor are they seen as an attempt by workers to gain rights that they do not have through the usual negotiating channels. So there are clear benefits to both sides of industry.
  Evidence shows that the Government are out of touch with both sides of industry. Many senior managers in this country do not have the fears about what Labour policy on Europe would mean for them that the Government claim.
  One of the major areas in which I want to see progress in the European Union in the coming years is regional policy. One of the major challenges facing an incoming Labour Government will be to make an effective response to the untapped potential of the regions of Britain. I use the term "regions", but I am only too well aware that Scotland is a country, Wales is a country and Northern Ireland is a province. None the less, they are regions within Europe, and if I use that term for convenience the meaning will be well understood.
  The regions of England will be particularly important. There is an on-going debate in the Labour party about devolution of power and the decentralisation of government. People argue that no one knows what the regions of England are: they ask where East Anglia begins and the east midlands ends, and so on. I dispute that. The regions of England are clearly defined. Unemployment statistics are issued in London, nine English regions, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The Government have established offices in the regions and have devolved power; perhaps that is the only example of decentralisation during four terms of Conservative government. They have recognised the benefit of bringing government closer to the people and responding to local needs. That is the most important aspect of regional policy in the United Kingdom. In the European context—the two sit neatly together—this matter is important, because the three European structural funds are allocated on a regional basis.
  Equally important is the fact that it will be next to impossible to reduce the widely perceived mystique of Europe and make it relevant to the people of this country, and to the people of Europe as a whole, unless we give regions a strategic role and bring government closer to the people. We should involve people and make them feel that regions can respond to local needs.
  The way in which this country is ruled puts us at a severe disadvantage, because we are one of the most centralised countries in Europe. Most member countries of the European Union either have been decentralised for some time or, like Spain and France, have made moves to devolve power from the centre.
  The countries and regions of Britain have much to offer across a broad range. That is largely unrecognised. That is not a criticism of the Government, because it has not been Labour policy to take this issue seriously until recent
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  years, but we are beginning to develop that policy now. The countries and regions of Britain have much to offer in a European context, but they are hamstrung by the lack of a strategic framework for generating regional initiatives to enable them to obtain funding that is available through the European Union. The lack of such a framework prevents local authorities as they are now from being the voices in local communities, and it will prevent the putative regional authorities that I hope will be established throughout Britain at some stage from developing regional economic strategies. That is a void, in regeneration terms, which a Labour Government will begin to fill. They will do that in the context of the participatory, inclusive approach to which I referred earlier when I spoke about Labour's attitude to Europe and European Union membership and its appreciation of the increasing importance of the European Union regions.
  That concept has been strengthened. The Maastricht agreement provided for the establishment of a Committee of the Regions, which at the moment is struggling to take on any kind of meaningful role, largely because power has not filtered through in a meaningful way from the centre in Brussels. Undoubtedly, that concept will develop in the years ahead and I hope that the intergovernmental conference will provide a clear framework on how that should happen.
  The development of a co-ordinated regional policy will allow a Labour Government to decentralise our state and deliver the state's services as well as maximising the benefits of our share of European regional funds. Subsidiarity is a much maligned term, but that living example of subsidiarity in operation allows it to be easily illustrated and explained with the spin-off of allowing the participation of our people in making decisions that affect their day-to-day lives. That will help to give Europe the relevance to which I referred earlier.
  Without that there will be an inbuilt suspicion of Europe—I would not put it as high as hostility—in terms of who does what, where the money goes, what we put in, what we get out and why some parts of the country get assistance while others do not. It will be part of any Government's job to be as clear as possible in explaining Europe's role.
  There is no doubt that in the coming years economic and monetary union will be the most controversial issue surrounding Europe, if it is not already that. I am sure that we can all recall the Maastricht treaty winding its weary way through the House in 1993. I contributed to those debates and more than once voted against aspects of the legislation. I did that despite being a confirmed pro-European. I want to see the EU deepened and widened but in a controlled way. I was primarily concerned by the agreement's convergence criteria for moves towards a single European currency. The criteria were and still are deflationary.
  I represent an inner-city constituency which is already short of many of the resources that are needed to provide adequate housing, education and other benefits and I am worried that those criteria put any economy in Europe into a straitjacket, forcing it to bend to certain economic principles before it will be eligible to join the single currency. That concern was shared by many hon. Members. As a concept, a single currency has my support. In itself it is an admirable and desirable destination,

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  but under the current criteria, the route that is mapped out to get there gives me and many others great cause for concern.
  I welcome the fact that the debate has moved on since 1993 and that there seems to be a wider acceptance, certainly in the Labour party, that convergence must be based on improving growth and employment and not on monetary objectives alone. That is the key to the whole matter. I recognise the necessity and welcome the moves that are being made towards flexibility in the criteria. How that will happen, if it happens, remains to be seen.
  The huge protests which occurred in France at the end of last year and last week and those that occurred in Germany show that the severe public expenditure cuts in those countries to enable them to be in the vanguard of the single European currency in 1999 may succeed in bringing about the flexible approach that is needed and may even have the desirable result of putting back any idea of the single European currency coming into effect in 1999. I do not think that that wrecks the project. If we are to have such a currency it is far better to make sure that it is done at one speed so that we do not end up with a two-tier system. That would be particularly damaging because it would ensure that Germany in particular and France and perhaps one or two other smaller countries would be well ahead of the rest of Europe and that gap might prove impossible to bridge in future years.
  Mr. Nigel Evans: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman has given great thought to the single currency because he has spoken at length on it. He says that it is in the best interests of the people of the United Kingdom. Precisely how will a Labour Government consult the British people on whether we ought to have a single currency?
  Mr. Watson: No doubt the hon. Gentleman is aware that my party will either use the general election as a guide or may at some stage use a referendum. That has not been ruled out. Labour has no difficulty with referendums. There are to be referendums in Scotland and Wales and following a Labour victory there would be a referendum on the issue of this country's voting system. My view is that on constitutional issues it is often appropriate to use referendums. Whether it is appropriate for a Labour Government will depend on developments. As I say, it has not been ruled out, as can clearly be seen from party documents. Events would be the appropriate guide in that.
  The hon. Gentleman shakes his head. I have made my position clear and Labour has nothing to fear from consulting the people and saying, "Here is a fairly fundamental change. What do you think about it?" That decision will be made at the time. No one can look ahead two or possibly three years with any clarity.
  The whole question of monetary union has aspects of uncertainty and that is why the policy to which I referred in answer to the intervention of the hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) and the one that was outlined by my right hon. Friend the Member for Livingston earlier are correct at this stage. In the meantime, efforts should be concentrated on trying to build as wide support as possible for the Swedish Government's proposal that an employment chapter should be added as a counterpart of the Maastricht criteria. That would ensure that we do not
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  lose sight of the fact that while job creation may be clearly stated in the Maastricht agreement, how to get there within the confines of the criteria as it stands is not explained. That will be a priority for a Labour Government.
  In a sense, on the question of enlargement I am rising to the bait in respect of comments of the hon. Member for Mid-Staffordshire (Mr. Fabricant), who spoke specifically about Turkey. As is widely known. Labour is keen to see enlargement of the European Union. That is why the party recently appointed Sir Michael Butler, who is held in high esteem for his work for Governments of different political colours, to be our envoy in dealing with those countries that are seeking to enter the EU. That is an example of how seriously we take this matter.
  I am concerned about the remarks on Turkey. The hon. Member for Mid-Staffordshire said that the hon. Member for Blackpool, North (Mr. Elletson) may wish to comment on that. It is unacceptable that a country such as Turkey should be admitted to the EU before severe changes of direction in its internal and external policies are effected. I am not talking only about the illegal occupation of the northern part of Cyprus, but about Turkey's appalling human rights record and in particular its treatment of the Kurds. If we allowed a country with such a record into the European Union at this stage, far from strengthening the union it would weaken the whole concept of the standards that are demanded of countries before they are admitted. Turkey falls well short of those standards.
  I am pleased to say that, when I discussed the matter with Members of the European Parliament and with the European Commission as recently as last month in Strasbourg, I was assured that any application by Turkey would be vetoed. Given its current policy, I want Turkey to stay out, but I would be more than pleased if Turkey could get its house in order, reapplied and was admitted then.
  The EU should be used to encourage all countries of Europe to come into line on basic issues such as human rights, democracy and the sovereignty of other countries' territory, and to abide by United Nations resolutions. Without that, there can be no question of Turkey's entry.
  Overseas development aid has not, to any extent, been touched on today. The Gracious Speech says:
  "A substantial aid programme will be maintained".
  We could be here until a week on Tuesday discussing just what "substantial" means, but Britain's aid level is down to 0.29 per cent. of gross domestic product and falling. Recently, under the auspices of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, I was in Australia. While in Canberra, I met Ministers, including the Minister with responsibility for overseas development aid, the head of AusAid, as the Department is known. In a discussion with him and his civil servants, I commented on the fact that one of the new Liberal-National Government's first cuts had been a 10 per cent. cut in the aid budget, which brought it down to 0.29 per cent. of GDP.
  When I raised that with the Minister, his answer was, "Your country's aid is at that level," more or less questioning my right to raise the issue with him. I made it clear that that was not a decision of the party of which I am a member, but it is worrying that other countries should use Britain's aid level as a benchmark, as if that somehow makes their aid level acceptable.

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  We are about 14th in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development list of countries in terms of aid level. I have spoken at length in debates on the subject in the House and I do not propose to go into any more detail, but, again, under a Labour Government, there would be a sea change in Britain's approach to aid by the fundamental means of restoring to a Government Department the overseas aid portfolio. Labour plans to establish a Department of international development, giving back the added status of a Cabinet Minister to that Department. That would underline our approach to aid and ensure that the world's poorest people receive reasonable assistance from the developed world.
  Among a list of proposals that will substantially change the way in which Britain delivers aid, we have a commitment to reverse the decline in UK aid spending. That will be generally welcomed throughout Britain by people who appreciate the work that is done with our aid budget.
  I touch on Kashmir because the Gracious Speech mentions that the Commonwealth Heads of Government conference will be held in Edinburgh in October 1997. As someone with a large Kashmiri population in my constituency, who has been consistently asked to raise this issue and who has travelled to Kashmir, it strikes me that the Commonwealth offers a means of helping to resolve a conflict and dispute that has been going on for nearly 50 years.
  Hon. Members may note that there is an early-day motion on today's Order Paper on the subject. That outlines the major issues, but it does not mention the Commonwealth, which has a role to play now that Pakistan is again a member. The Commonwealth could use its offices to bring together the Governments of Pakistan and of India, with a view to trying to resolve the dispute along the lines of UN resolutions, some of which have been on the statute book since as far back as 1948.
  The Commonwealth is held in high regard way beyond its boundaries. Bloodshed is continuing in Kashmir. Kidnaps are still a regular occurrence. The unfortunate people kidnapped last year have still not been released and we do not know whether they are still alive. That is an example, added to the fiasco of the recent so-called election in the state of Jammu and Kashmir, of the impasse. I hope that the Commonwealth might be encouraged to try to resolve the dispute. If nothing happens before it meets, the Commonwealth Heads of Government conference might be a useful starting point, when the issue can be placed on the agenda by the British Government of the time.
  It is important that, in debates such as this, where, unusually, there is the opportunity to discuss wide-ranging aspects of the Government's proposals, a broad spectrum of hon. Members from all political parties participate. We have seen that today. I cannot endorse, as the Foreign Secretary invited us to do, what the Gracious Speech says on foreign affairs, particularly Europe, but I end where I started. In the near future, we will have a different approach to Europe. It will be positive, inclusive and much more in tune with the views of Britain's people.
  8.6 pm
  Mr. Harold Elletson: It is interesting to follow the hon. Member for Glasgow, Central (Mr. Watson), because my hon. Friends and I
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  understood him to have opened a new area of Labour party policy. He seemed to commit the Labour party to at least three referendums on various subjects of interest to the British people. I understood him to say that he was expressing the possibility that the Labour party would commit itself, if it ever came to office, to referendums on devolution, on a single currency and on the voting system. Trotsky—not a name so popular these days in the Labour party—used to believe in an era of permanent revolution. The hon. Gentleman seems to believe in an era of permanent referendum.
  Mr. Watson: I take the hon. Gentleman's remarks in the jovial sense in which, I am sure, they were intended. I have not added to Labour party policy. I have simply repeated existing policy on Scotland and Wales, which is well known and has been widely debated in those countries in the past two to three months. A referendurn on the voting system has been policy for some considerable time. On the single currency, let me make it clear, if I did not earlier, that far from committing the party to that policy, or even saying that I want that policy, all I am saying is that it has not been ruled out and it will be examined at the time. The Labour party may, however, correctly conclude that a general election result has given an incoming Labour Government the mandate that they need. We will reconsider later. That is what I said.
  Mr. Elletson: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that clarification. It is useful for the House to have that on record and for the British people to understand that we could be involved in such a prolonged period of extensive referendums. Clearly, the Labour party is unable to trust the House with making up its mind and will commit us to extensive and unnecessary referendums.
  Mr. Edward Leigh: My hon. Friend is being a bit unfair on the Labour party because it says that it wants to test the single currency issue with either a referendum or a general election. It: cannot make up its mind whether to have a general election or a referendum. It is a vague policy. Why does it not simply announce whether it will have a referendum, like our party? Why be so coy about the test of public opinion? I do not understand the Labour party's behaviour. Perhaps my hon. Friend can help me.
  Mr. Elletson: The Labour party is being coy. As my hon. Friend says, we have committed ourselves to a referendum on a fundamental constitutional issue—the single currency—but for the Labour party to commit itself to three referendums seems more than a little careless and utterly absurd. I hope that the British people recognise that at the next general election; however, I do not want to get stuck on the subject, but wish to move on and welcome the Queen's Speech, which outlines the Government's plans to extend opportunity against a background of continuing economic success.
  The tough decisions on the economy taken by Ministers have delivered sustained growth, rising prosperity and low inflation, enabling this year's Queen's Speech to concentrate on raising standards in education and health and on fighting crime. Against that background of sustained economic growth and success, the Government can consider the UK's position in the world with confidence in today's debate on foreign policy and defence.

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  In the recent past, the House has spent more than a little time—some people would say too much—debating European monetary union and a single European currency. The House has spent a great deal less time considering a common foreign and security policy, which is no less important and dangerous. My right hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Mr. Howell) referred to the dangers of the UK being corralled into a narrow European regionalism, and of Britain and other European nation states being drawn into inflexible structures, which would be inappropriate. Foreign policy cannot be imposed on European nation states and to try to do so by diktat or the machinations of Brussels would be dangerous, divisive and as much a threat to sovereignty as trying to impose a single currency.
  My right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary outlined the four main pillars of UK foreign policy as he sees them. I agree that they are priorities, but our foreign policy is still primarily driven by two main engines—and I hope that will continue. Those two engines are our trading interests and a desire to create or maintain stability in areas in which Britain has an overriding national interest—and they may provide points of common interest with our fellow Europeans or they may not. In some areas, commercial rivalry makes it unlikely that we can develop a common policy, at least in the short term. I remember visiting Hong Kong when the Governor and the British Government, following Tiananmen square, were trying to take a tough line with the Chinese Government in Peking. At exactly the same moment, the German Chancellor, Helmut Kohl, arrived over the border—in Guangzhou—with the largest-ever delegation of German business men, to try to win the contract for the new Canton metro. There cannot be a clearer demonstration of the lack of a common European foreign policy, which Germany was understandably prepared to override in its commercial interests.
  Mr. Fabricant: Does my hon. Friend recall that Germany's recognition of Croatia, when we felt that to recognise any of the states of the former Yugoslavia would be destructive, probably single-handedly led to the break-up of the Yugoslav republic?
  Mr. Elletson: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend, who is absolutely right. That is an example of Germany trying to impose a common foreign policy on Europe. In that instance, Germany tried to bounce the rest of Europe into recognising Croatia, and it was a complete disaster. It helped to create the conflict in Bosnia, with all the enormous and tragic consequences that followed.
  It is possible, however, to develop a common foreign policy in some areas, by virtue of shared interests. That is true of the common European response to some of the more bizarre decisions of the United States Government and of the State Department in particular. I hope that my right hon. and hon. Friends will continue to be extremely vigilant in reacting to the outrageous American attitude to trade with Cuba. We cannot allow America to get away with victimising west European business interests. It is outrageous that the USA should seek to blackmail British and other European businesses that are trying to engage in legitimate trade with Cuba. We must stick firmly to that particular common European position.
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  Trade and investment provide the real engines of common foreign policy. As France, Britain and Germany begin to invest in similar emerging markets and countries, or to develop multinational trading alliances to win contracts in new markets, such activities will develop and shape foreign policy. We see that happening in some of the emerging markets of the former Soviet Union and elsewhere. As my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Staffordshire (Mr. Fabricant) pointed out, to follow the Brussels or German route of imposed foreign policy would be extremely dangerous for Europe, posing threats that could have far greater consequences than those that people might initially have imagined.
  Mr. Fabricant: I intended to intervene earlier, when my hon. Friend was talking about American foreign policy on Cuba. I was going to bet my hon. Friend and the House that, after the American elections on 5 November, US policy on Cuba will be revoked by the President—if he is re-elected.
  Mr. Elletson: I am not sure that it is appropriate to undertake the gambling activity of which my hon. Friend seeks to persuade me.
  Mr. Nigel Evans: Not in a royal palace.
  Mr. Elletson: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I am sorry for having given way to my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Staffordshire. Perhaps he did not expect me to do so. Earlier, he made an extremely good point about the dangers of trying to impose a common European foreign policy.
  If the Germans want greater foreign policy co-ordination, the best way is through industrial trading and investment co-operation. Germany might like to consider the importance of large multinational defence contracts such as the Eurofighter, which are real examples of European co-operation. As the EFA is such a strategically important project and has huge export potential, it will obviously be of enormous importance. Perhaps my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence will take that message when he next goes to Bonn. That is the sort of project that the Germans should pursue in the interests of European co-operation, rather than force Europe down the route of an imposed common foreign policy. The Foreign Secretary is absolutely right to resist unnecessary institutional attempts to impose a common foreign policy. His approach contrasts with the approach of the right hon. Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook), who would surrender our sovereignty to Brussels on this and so much else.
  There are areas where I believe that my right hon. and hon. Friends must ensure that the United Kingdom gives a lead in co-ordinating European foreign policy. Increasingly, there are areas of the world in which Europe, particularly Britain and France because of their history, has a significant role to play. That is due partly to the fact that the United States has overstretched itself and has shown that it is not capable of taking on all that it has sought to take on recently. It is vastly over-extended and is unwilling to undertake significant long-term commitments.
  My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Harborough (Mr. Garnier) mentioned some of the strains felt in Bosnia from which it is likely the United States

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  will seek to withdraw following the presidential election. It is clear that the Americans are unhappy about their long-term commitment to keeping troops in Bosnia. There will be other areas in which they are equally unhappy to undertake the necessary commitment or to play a role and it is in such areas that Europe has a duty and a potential role to play.
  The Americans give us some cause for concern in the way in which my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Staffordshire suggested. In some quarters in America what he described is known as the 5–11 policy—that being 5 November. That seems to be a major determinant of American foreign policy. It is ludicrous for us to go along with a foreign policy that is led primarily by a wish to ensure that the President is re-elected. It is nonsense, but it is happening. There are parts of the world where there is too much at stake to allow that to continue. It reveals the lack of United States experience and shows how important it is for us to carve a role for ourselves.
  The United States is bound to withdraw increasingly from some of the areas on Europe's frontiers and to look more and more towards the Pacific rim. Over the next 20 or 30 years, that is bound to be the drift in American foreign policy. Inevitably, we will have to concentrate on some of the crisis areas, difficulties and opportunities on our borders.
  We need a clear and co-ordinated foreign policy which can be led and directed primarily by Britain and France. The most obvious and immediate area on which we should concentrate is the middle east. The United States peace initiative is in imminent danger of collapse and that will create a dangerous vacuum. President Chirac has shown during his recent visit to Israel and Palestine that he is determined to ensure a French presence in the region and to intervene. The experience of the United Kingdom and France throughout the middle east and our significant commercial and trading interests in the region should encourage us to develop a role there. I would encourage the Foreign Secretary to pursue that with the French. I welcome the recent appointment of a European Union envoy to the region. That is good news which we should all welcome.
  Russia and eastern Europe is another area in which we have a responsibility and where there is an urgent need for us to develop a focused European policy. The Foreign Secretary did not mention events in Russia during his speech, but what is happening there now is a cause for concern. It is clear that there is a significant problem in the Kremlin because President Yeltsin is not really in charge. He may soon be removed, either by an act of God or by the act of some of his more immediate neighbours. He would not necessarily have to die to be removed from office because, under the Russian constitution, he can be removed on the grounds of persistent instability. If he is persistently ill or incapacitated, it is likely that he will be removed.
  In the past, Europe and America have made the mistake of putting too much faith in President Yeltsin and assuming that our policy towards Russia should be dictated by trying to preserve him in power. We have not thought through what will happen if he goes, with whom we should deal and whom we should be encouraging. That is a real question for us.
  Yeltsin has not been the great democrat that he was supposed to be. Anybody who has walked through the rubble of Grozny and spoken to people who suffered the
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  Russian attack on Chechnya and the destruction of civilian property and life will know that that disgusting campaign was not the action of a democratic Government, or a Government prepared to pay even the remotest attention to their own constitution. Yet we trusted Yeltsin and backed him during the election campaign, despite knowing all about his health problems. It is obvious that those who now hold power in Russia are an unaccountable and unelected clique.
  That is deeply worrying, particularly for European countries such as the Ukraine, Poland and others which border Russia. It is bound to lead to an increase in demands from those countries for membership of NATO or the European Union. That is perfectly understandable, particularly given the events in Chechnya. Poles feel this particularly strongly because of their historic connection with the Caucasus. In the last century, Polish officers fought with Chechens in the northern Caucasus against the Russian occupation. The Poles feel that link strongly. They can see what the Russians have done in Chechnya and worry that, in certain circumstances, that might be their fate too. Who can blame them?
  Given what has been happening in Russia and the instability there, the worst thing we could do would be to try to ignore the demands for membership of NATO and try to pretend that the problem does not exist. We must face up to the expansion of NATO, probably sooner than we had imagined. If Yeltsin is removed from power, the consequences inside Russia could be so far reaching and horrifying that the expansion of NATO will be on the agenda much sooner than we expected. We must send a clear signal now to the effect that we will not allow a Russian veto, that we will proceed with the expansion of NATO, that we want Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic—to name but a few—to be full members of NATO, that we will go ahead with that process and that we are prepared to offer the guarantees that that entails.
  Mr. Fabricant: Does my hon. Friend accept that there is a difference between Chechnya and countries such as Poland? Historically, Chechnya is part of the Russian federation, whereas Poland was not. Does he also accept that, if Boris Nikolayevich Yeltsin were deposed, it would be wrong for us to intervene to try to decide who would succeed him'? He will recall the British intervention in Murmansk from 1919 to 1922, which was disastrous for British relations—
  Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. That is rather a long intervention, and the hon. Gentleman has already had half an hour and several interventions.
  Mr. Elletson: I am grateful to you, Madam Deputy Speaker. My hon. Friend makes another interesting and valid point.
  I am arguing that we need to understand clearly what our interests in the area are. The first must be stability. Secondly, we must do what we can to encourage democracy and constitutionality. My right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary dwelt on the rule of law, which is extremely important. We must encourage Russia to abide by its law and Russian Governments to abide by what they have adopted as the Russian constitution, imperfect and inadequate though it may be. Our final consideration must be our commercial interests.

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  Of those interests, in this case commercial interests must come a long way down the list of priorities. Our first interest must be stability and our second democracy and constitutionality. Much wishful thinking goes on about our commercial interests in Russia, especially in the banking community.
  Most important, we must send clear signals to Russia about its approach to its neighbours. We need to stop being obsessed by Russia to the exclusion of other countries of the former Soviet Union. The Foreign Secretary mentioned some of those countries and encouraged us not to use the term "the former Soviet Union". Many countries will have been grateful for his remarks.
  We must do what we can to encourage investment and support democracy and the rule of law in countries such as the Ukraine and to help them along the path to democracy and the free market.
  I turn to another part of the world—Turkey. It is overwhelmingly important for Europe to develop policy, and perhaps for Britain to play a lead in helping to develop that policy, in Turkey. I am sorry that we do not have time to go into the implications of Europe's policy towards Turkey and the need for us to develop a common policy towards Turkey, because it is extremely important. I hope that it will be the subject of an Adjournment debate.
  Turkey's immense geopolitical and strategic importance has increased enormously since the break-up of the Soviet Union. Turkey is Europe's bridge to the east. It retains a huge amount of experience in the middle east through its old Ottoman connections. It sits on the border of Iran, Iraq and Syria, all of which have helped to export terrorism to Turkey and elsewhere, but all of which are crucial to the future peace and stability of the middle east.
  Turkey is also crucial in developing the prosperity and security of central Asia and the trans-Caucasus. We cannot underestimate those regions, because they are full of energy and mineral resources, which will transform that region and probably the whole middle east, especially the Gulf. Those resources will provide an enormous new source of energy to western Europe, so that we will no longer depend on the Gulf states. Strategically, that is massively significant.
  The best way for us to approach those countries is through Turkey. We need, as Europeans, to develop a partnership with Turkey that enables us to offer the Turkish model—not ideal, not always thoroughly democratic, not always the type of regime of which we would approve, but at least a model—of progressive secular Islam, to which those states in the former Soviet Union and that part of central Asia can aspire. That is a major challenge for Britain and France. I know that we shall consider that, and I am sure that the Foreign Secretary will do what he can to pursue that initiative.
  8.34 pm
  Mr. Nigel Evans: I am grateful for the chance to make a short contribution to the debate on the Loyal Address. I shall be diligent to ensure that I keep my remarks to a length that will allow other hon. Members to speak.
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  We live in a changing world, which is much smaller than it was before the cold war thawed and the Berlin wall came down. Communism as a creed has become as unpopular abroad as socialism appears to have become at home. But it is not a safer world. Hon. Members mentioned several places where there are problems. If I were to mention them all, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence and the Labour defence spokesman would have no time in which to speak, but I shall mention one or two places where, to a lesser or greater extent, this country may be, or is, involved.
  During the past few weeks, our newspapers have been full of what is happening in Afghanistan, with the Talibans. Many people are extremely worried about their fundamentalist nature. In the places that they have entered, women have been dictated to. They have been told to wear a dress from top to toe and show no skin, and they have been told that they cannot work. That region has been unstable for a long time, but we have cause to worry about what is going on and I hope that the troubles of that region can be brought to a speedy conclusion.
  I am extremely worried about Sri Lanka. Two years ago, I was able to go there to witness elections. For many years, there have been problems in Jaffna with the Tamil Tigers. It was thought that, as the region had become more stable and elections had taken place, things would continue to settle down, and there was great hope that the new leader would bring that about. That has palpably not been the case and, unfortunately, there have been several hundreds, if not thousands, of deaths in Sri Lanka during the past 12 months.
  Sri Lanka relies heavily on tourism, much of which comes from Britain. As a result of the troubles, many British people and other Europeans have decided not to go there, which has hit Sri Lanka's economy savagely and caused suffering to many. I welcome the fact that a great deal of Overseas Development Administration aid has been given to Sri Lanka to help displaced people from the Jaffna region. I hope that stability can be brought back to Sri Lanka in the not too distant future.
  Another part of the world that must cause us great concern, and to which a great deal of ODA money is going, is Rwanda and Burundi. We heard today that a third of a million people are crossing into Zaire. Many hundreds of thousands of people have already crossed into Tanzania and are in receipt of ODA money for food and water, but I read that, in the region of Zaire where the refugees now are, there is sufficient food and water for only a couple of days. That must be of great concern to us, and I hope that every effort is being made to ensure that we get vital supplies through to that region so that people do not starve.
  Bosnia and the former Yugoslavia have been mentioned several times tonight. I had the opportunity to visit Belgrade and Pale. I was heartened to see the work of the United Nations agencies, which were getting food and supplies through to an innocent population who were suffering greatly as a result of the war that savaged the region.
  I am encouraged by the fact that the situation seems to have become much better, although it is still extremely unstable and anything could cause another flare-up. I am delighted that we have a presence in the peacekeeping forces there and that that operation is going extremely well. We must be very careful that our presence is felt in

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  that region to ensure that the troubles do not flare up again, because the people who live there will be the ones who suffer.
  It is obvious that diplomatic efforts are vital in preventing hot spots from flaring up. I visited Cyprus this year and last, and my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary has said that he will visit before the end of this year. I had the opportunity to meet the leader of the northern Cypriots, Rauf Denktas, and this year I met President Klerides. We also met many officials and journalists from both sides of the dispute. Although the situation in Cyprus has been quiet over the past few years, there have been incidents and fatalities on the green line—including one only last week. Unfortunately, the situation seems to be worsening, partly because Cyprus has applied to become a member of the European Union.
  Much attention is being focused on what may happen to Cyprus in the future. The Foreign Secretary mentioned that, although it may not be impossible, it would be far easier for Cyprus to be admitted to the EU if the current divisions on the island were resolved. Great hope has therefore been placed in our special envoy, Sir David Hannay, who will go to the area to do what he can to bring both sides together to find a solution. As I understand it, talks on Cyprus's accession to the EU will start six months after the conclusion of the EU intergovernmental conference.
  The hon. Member for Glasgow, Central (Mr. Watson) said that Turkey's accession to the EU would be difficult because of its human rights record, and gave several other reasons why he thought that it would be inappropriate for Turkey to enter now. I agree that Turkey has certain problems, but I know of no fundamental, philosophical reason why Turkey might not become a full member of the EU.
  A deal was made last year stating that Turkey should enter the customs union, but there have been problems—particularly those raised by Greece—establishing a full customs union with Turkey, and Turkey cannot fully benefit from it. The delay will only cause further problems for Turkey, and increase its suspicions of Greece. We should do as much as we can to ensure that the customs union agreed with Turkey operates properly.
  I have spoken to Turkish Cypriots, and they, too, are concerned at the number of settlers who have come to the north from Turkey. They feel that those Turks do not have the necessary customs or roots in northern Cyprus, and believe that something should be done about the issue. The problems will have to be dealt with if a solution is to be achieved there. One problem is the settlers, how long they have been in Cyprus and how many of them will return to Turkey.
  My right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary mentioned the fact that 250,000 Cypriots are living in the United Kingdom. When there is a settlement, some of them may wish to return to Cyprus, as I was told when I visited Cyprus earlier this year. There is also the problem of the property of people who were removed from the north. They believe that, if there is to be a settlement, there must be compensation for that property.
  As for an agreement, a form of bizonal arrangement should be examined, but certainly with protection for those who live in the north who are rightly concerned that they would be swamped by the Greek Cypriots to the
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  south. I hope that the Foreign Secretary's visit to Cyprus will make some headway and that confidence-building measures will be introduced.
  The European Union has been mentioned time and again. Although it might be thought that EU accession will bring security and stability to Cyprus, it has caused a great deal of discussion and debate in the United Kingdom, and not simply within the Conservative party. There is great disagreement on the issue among Labour Members. At least the Government have given a commitment that there will be a referendum on a single currency, and that the British people will decide whether we should enter a single currency.
  I cannot understand why the Labour party, which has had many months to deliberate on the issue, cannot get its act together and tell the British people whether they will get a referendum. It should not fudge the issue and say that it will be decided by a general election, because all hon. Members know that, in a general election, people vote for all types of issues. A single currency is a fundamental constitutional issue, and the people should be given an opportunity, via a referendum, to decide whether Britain should be a part of it.
  Another issue surrounding European Union expansion—I hope that we endeavour to broaden it and not to deepen it—is our relationship with Gibraltar. I spoke with the Chief Minister, Peter Caravana, at the Conservative party conference. He has good relations with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, but we must ensure that Gibraltar's position is fully recognised in any talks with the EU and in any directives that the EU may issue. The people of Gibraltar are very proud of their links with the United Kingdom, over almost 300 years, and we must ensure that that relationship is properly recognised in EU directives.
  There are many other issues to deal with in this debate, but I shall say only that we are a world trading nation and that we do not trade only with the European Union. It is important that we recognise that fact, and the importance of our trade with the United States, which amounts to about £25 billion a year. We have many links with the United States, as we do with Europe. We do not want to go down the route of a fortress Europe, although we want to have alliances.
  We have an alliance in manufacturing in my constituency, with British Aerospace. No debate on defence and foreign affairs would be complete without a mention of British Aerospace, because of the thousands of workers it employs in my constituency. There are also many smaller companies in my constituency that supply British Aerospace and other defence manufacturers. They were overjoyed at the announcement of the Nimrod order at the end of the old Session.
  Those workers and manufacturers were also delighted by the announcement, made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence at the Farnborough air show, of our commitment to the European fighter 2000. I hope that he will take to Germany the message that we would like there to be an equal, parallel commitment on its behalf. We understand Germany's domestic problems but, if we want there to be a future in collaborative projects with Germany, we must make absolutely certain that all the partners play their proper roles, that we all take an equal share and that we have a defence manufacturing industry for fighter jets.

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  I am speaking not only of the European fighter aircraft, but of the future offensive aircraft that will replace the Tornado. If other countries are to accede to the EU, we must ensure that our partners will remain partners, from beginning to end, and that they will not mess us about.
  Mr. Elletson: My hon. Friend mentioned the defence manufacturing base. Like him, I have many constituents who work for British Aerospace at Warton and Samlesbury. Does my hon. Friend agree that his constituents' jobs depend significantly on defence exports? Does he agree that it is absolutely disgraceful that many Labour Members oppose defence exports to some of British Aerospace's most significant markets? Many Labour Members oppose the sale of defence equipment even to India.
  Mr. Evans: I simply cannot understand the attitude to which my hon. Friend refers.
  The problems with the European fighter and the question whether we should buy fewer of them to enable us to spend more on the World Service and overseas development were mentioned earlier. I am proud of the World Service and I want it to develop, I am proud of the Overseas Development Administration—we are spending more than £2 billion on good, targeted aid—and of our commitment, which I have seen demonstrated by the work being carried out in Africa, but we must ensure that our defence manufacturing industry, which operates not only in the north-west but throughout the United Kingdom, endures. We must back it to ensure that it has the best possible chance to win orders from the British Government and throughout the world.
  8.49 pm
  Mr. Andrew Miller: In response to the hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans), I want to make it clear that Labour is committed to the Eurofighter; there is no difference between us on that, and I hope that that message gets through to his constituents. Like him, I have many constituents who work in the aerospace industry—in Broughton, in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones). That industry remains an important part of our manufacturing infrastructure and must not be forgotten, either by the current Government or by my hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Dr. Clark), who will soon take over from the Secretary of State for Defence.
  It is an interesting week for the House in terms of our commitment to the world, and I am referring not only to the parts of the Gracious Speech relating to foreign policy on which we have some agreement. Everything that we say in the House is now available not only to British newspapers and in Hansard but throughout the world on the Internet; that may cause certain right hon. and hon. Members to think twice about their remarks.
  The Secretary of State for Defence may be interested to know that one person was delighted that the Government survived long enough to ensure that a Gracious Speech could be delivered this year—my daughter Joanne, who is 18 today and who was determined that the Government
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  should survive long enough for her to cast a vote for my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington, South (Mr. Hall) in the election.
  I want to make some points following on from those that I made in the debate on the defence estimates last week. But before I do that, I heard this evening that the European Parliament had condemned British Petroleum for alleged activities in Colombia. We recently had reason to be critical of Shell—with which I work closely because it is an important employer in my constituency—over its policy in Nigeria, and now there is a similar problem with BP. Can the Secretary of State cast some light on what the Government know about BP's activities in Colombia, particularly in the light of what I intend to say about the drugs industry, which bedevils each and every constituency?
  On defence, I want to concentrate on naval issues. I twice asked the Secretary of State a specific question about the batch 2 Trafalgar class submarines in the defence estimates debate. The subject follows neatly the comments of the hon. Member for Ribble Valley about the aerospace industry. We need to give confidence to our manufacturers and it would be helpful to know if and when the Government intend to place the orders. The opportunity is there, and the need has been identified, especially now that some navies in less than stable countries possess SSK submarines. I again press the Secretary of State for a clear answer on the matter.
  We all know that in past engagements the merchant marine has provided sterling support for the Royal Navy. There are now concerns, in the Royal Navy and elsewhere, about the level of that support, especially in the light of the bizarre saga of the Ukrainian ship that was engaged in Operation Purple Star and was subsequently declared unseaworthy by the Americans. That is extremely worrying, and unless we ensure that the Royal Navy gets adequate support, we shall be doing the country a serious disservice.
  The issue of drugs is important in every constituency. I thank the Minister of State for the Armed Forces for a positive response to my comments in the defence estimates debate. There are concerns about certain activities in the Caribbean and south American countries. The hon. Member for Blackpool, North (Mr. Elletson) made a pertinent comment about Cuba. It is clear that the real enemy in the Caribbean is the drugs industry and the way in which it is developing.
  We have an important function through the West Indies guard ship, in partnership with the United States Coastguard, the Dutch navy and others who are trying to stop drug trafficking in the area. There are related questions about our relationships with countries such as Colombia, and questions that relate to other areas of policy. For example, what is to happen with the banana regime—a subject that crops up from time to time in the House? It is regarded too flippantly by some hon. Members on both sides of the House. The underlying issue is clear—if a small farming community fails to get the necessary support to maintain such crops, there will be a marketplace for the drug barons to force their way in. We have a responsibility, particularly to our Commonwealth partners, to ensure that every possible support is given.

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  I was pleased to be invited by the Foreign Office to attend a briefing by our ambassador in Burma a few months ago, as a result of some questions that I had raised. I formally thank the Ministers responsible, because I found the briefing very interesting.
  The first paragraph of the Gracious Speech mentions a proposed royal visit to Thailand. All hon. Members are aware of some of the difficulties facing the Karen nation in camps on the Thai-Burmese border. I hope that the Government will use their best endeavours, through their foreign policy machinery, to put the utmost pressure on those two Governments to develop democratic rights for the people in those camps, who are wrongly regarded as stateless citizens.
  The Karen nation has a long and proud tradition in the area, and many of its elders, including Bruce Humphrey-Taylor in my constituency, fought for the British Army in the second world war. They are getting a raw deal. I hope that we shall exert the maximum pressure on those regimes, particularly bearing in mind the recent pronouncements of the Burmese Government on the lack of freedoms granted to Aung San Suu Kyi.
  I listened carefully to the thoughtful remarks of the hon. Member for Blackpool, North and his definitions of the role of foreign policy, but he missed out the important issue of our humanitarian responsibilities in the development of our foreign policy. Burma is a good example of an area in which the Government could take a lead and give real assistance. The problem is not specifically British, but it relates to the issue of the oil companies, which I mentioned earlier. As the Secretary of State for Defence knows, the freedom movement in Burma has expressed concerns about the role of some foreign oil companies in supporting the regime as a result of deals that have been struck.
  We must consider those matters. We have important potential trade links with such countries, but we must put the human rights of the citizens uppermost in our minds before we commit ourselves to any deals.
  9.2 pm
  Dr. David Clark: It is appropriate to spend the first day of the debate on the Gracious Speech on foreign affairs and defence. Those two intertwined policies are critical to the existence of our country. That is reinforced in the short sentence at the beginning of the substantive part of the Gracious Speech, which says it all:
  "National security continues to be of the highest importance."
  The whole House concurs with that. The Gracious Speech goes on to refer to the future of NATO, Britain's nuclear deterrent, preventing the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and the early ratification of a comprehensive test ban treaty. On all those key points there is a consensus between the Conservative Government and the Labour Opposition—a consensus which, I am sure, also includes the Liberal Democrats. I shall return to that later.
  We have had a good debate, because every right hon. and hon. Member who has sought to contribute has been successful. I was puzzled and somewhat disappointed by the Foreign Secretary's speech. Having had the honour of shadowing him for several years, I know the capabilities and incisiveness of his legally trained mind. Today I thought he was below par. For too long he gave us a tour d'horizon, but certainly not a tour de force. Only towards the end of his speech did he begin to address the real
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  problems facing Britain and British security—problems involving Europe, Hong Kong, Bosnia, Cyprus and the middle east. However, once that speech was over, we began a constructive and positive debate.
  Once again my right hon. Friend the Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook) drew the attention of the Foreign Secretary to all his omissions and widened the debate. He spoke about issues of serious concern to British citizens and exemplified the Government's shortcomings in such issues as bovine spongiform encephalopathy. The Government have let down not only the farmers, but the consumers very badly.
  Six years ago, the Labour party produced a set of proposals which, had the Government accepted them, would have avoided our present difficulties with Europe and would have averted the need for a major cull. It is a pity that the Government would not listen to our proposals for the selective slaughter of calves from infected cows, a proper tagging system such as exists in Northern Ireland and restricting the use of offal in animal feed. Had the Government followed our advice then we would not be in such a mess and many farmers would not be in their present difficulties. That is just one shortcoming in the Government's foreign policy.
  The right hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. Howell), the Chairman of the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs, rightly addressed the role of diplomacy. I did not agree with everything that he said, but he was right to draw to our attention the necessity of diplomacy.
  I enjoyed the thoughtful speech of the hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans), who made a useful contribution to the debate. Although the hon. Member for Blackpool, North (Mr. Elletson) is not in his place, the House benefited from hearing his opinion about Russia. He probably knows more about that country than any other hon. Member and I agree with most of the points he made. I very much agree with what he said about the expansion of NATO. Although we must take the Russians with us as far as possible, we must not let them dictate the shape of our security framework.
  The hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Mr. Garnier) made some excellent points about Bosnia. As for the hon. Member for Mid-Staffordshire (Mr. Fabricant), I listened to his discourse on habeas corpus and I am sure that all hon. Members share his concern about the constituency case that he raised.
  I could not but listen with care to the hon. Member for Wimbledon (Dr. Goodson-Wickes). I always listen to him with great respect when he speaks on military matters as he knows a great deal about them. Once he had got rid of the central office brief, he made an excellent speech. He spoke about overstretch and put a view that the Labour party has continually argued.
  Mr. Fabricant: As the hon. Gentleman believes that there is overstretch in the Army and I know that a number of my hon. Friends would share that view, what commitment is he prepared to make if there were a Labour Government for extra expenditure to ensure that the overstretch is overcome?
  Dr. Clark: I hope that the hon. Gentleman knows the answer to that question.
  Mr. Fabricant: I do not.
  Dr. Clark: If he does not, I am rather surprised.

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  We have argued that it makes no sense to cut the defence budget by more than one third and increase our commitment to the armed forces. The only way that the Government can overcome the problem is to sit down with professional advisers and the experts—as virtually every country in the western world has done—make an assessment of the risks and the threats facing Britain and reshape our forces to meet those threats. It is only by having a strategic defence review, with the painful consequences, that that problem can be addressed. We of course make the point that a strategic defence review is not a cost-cutting exercise. It is an attempt to match our capabilities with the threats to ourselves and our neighbours.
  I should like to take the debate forward a little. My hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Ross) again gave us the benefit of his considerable knowledge of the middle east. My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Central (Mr. Watson) exposed the Government's weakness on Europe. My hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Mr. Miller) showed the benefit of the armed forces scheme. He was able to bring to the House a certain hands-on knowledge of the armed forces, especially the Navy. I hope that the Defence Secretary is able to give him a satisfactory answer on the batch 2 Trafalgar class submarines.
  I said that I thought that the right hon. Member for Guildford had taken the debate forward. His points on the need to build diplomacy into a security strategy represented the right approach. Indeed, we have argued—it is very encouraging that the view is taken up by the only remaining super-power in the world—that preventative defence, as Defense Secretary Perry called it, is a very important part of the armoury in trying to achieve security not only in the west but throughout the world. His speech to the JFK school of government in May on the subject is well worth reading and studying. As he says,
  "The story of preventative defense is not merely one of preventing threats from weapons of mass destruction. It is also the story of engaging military and defence establishments around the world to further the spread of democracy and to further trust among the nations."
  He talked about the way in which we are engaged in trying to help three of the four former Soviet Union countries that still hold nuclear weapons to rid themselves of those weapons. Decommissioning has been going on in Kazakhstan, Belarus and the Ukraine. He gave other examples of how we try to defuse situations before they emerge into points of conflict. In a sense, Secretary Perry was merely repeating in a more sophisticated form the words of General Marshall—who did so much in the post-war years to build economic stability in Europe—who said when wearing his military hat:
  "The only way to win a war is to avoid one."
  He was suggesting not appeasement but preventative diplomacy and preventative security measures to try to ensure that the conflict did not occur.
  I referred earlier to the Opposition's belief in the importance of seeking a consensus with Her Majesty's Government on defence and security matters. I have been trying to follow that approach since undertaking the defence portfolio more than four and a half years ago. It
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  seems obvious to us that we ought to be able to agree across the Chamber on the basic principles governing our national security. The fact that the lead times for development and production in the procurement of defence equipment often stretch across decades and different Governments adds to the need for consensus if possible. For example, there is a need for a joint-strike fighter, to which the hon. Member for Ribble Valley referred. We are talking about an aeroplane for the second quarter of the next century.
  The revolutionary frigate that we saw on television at the weekend, which will be difficult to track by radar, is another example. It is hoped that that will be developed by a British company. We are talking about long-term projects, which increasingly cross national boundaries, so if we could achieve a consensus in the House, that would be the right and proper thing to do.
  If we are honest, there is considerable agreement on many such matters already. On NATO, for example, which was very much a creature of the Labour party under Ernie Bevin in its early years, we agree with the Government. On the idea of the Western European Union's becoming the European pillar of NATO, we agree with the Government. On the United Nations, on retaining our permanent seat on the Security Council and on the development of professional peacekeeping operations, we are in agreement with the Government.
  On British troops in Bosnia, too, we agree with the Government. On Desert Storm, on operation Provide Comfort and on Southern Watch over Iraq, we agree with the Government. On retention of the British nuclear deterrent, we agree with the Government. On the restructuring of the reserves, we agree with the Government. On the need to modernise our weaponry, so that it will be characterised by reach, flexibility and accuracy, as epitomised in Eurofighter and the attack helicopter, we agree with the Government.
  When there is so much agreement, it came as a grave disappointment to us to hear our attempt to build on a national consensus dismissed by the Minister of State for the Armed Forces. It augurs ill for our nation when such a senior Minister is incapable of overcoming party prejudice in the national interest.
  It is not only the hon. Gentleman's prejudice that concerns us, because during the 1996 defence estimates debate on 15 October he said:
  "We do not regard the Government as having any consensus with the Labour party on any single defence issue".—[Official Report, 15 October 1996; Vol. 282, c. 627.]
  Not only is that factually incorrect, but it is unhelpful to the defence of this country. The Minister has become blinded by his limited prejudice.
  Although we are prepared to try to reach a consensus with the Government as far as we can, that does not mean that we slavishly accept all the details of Government policy. Far from it. We believe that in many areas the Government's approach is harmful and destabilising to our armed forces and our security.
  At times the Opposition have led the debate, and we shall continue to do so in the few months before we take over responsibility for the governance of our country. We repeatedly led the debate on Bosnia. It was the Opposition who suggested ways forward for Britain's participation in UNPROFOR and IFOR, and the Government followed. On 7 August 1992 we called for troops to be sent to help

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  in the humanitarian effort. Six weeks later, the Government agreed. In December 1992 we called for a no-fly zone to be established. Four months later, the Government agreed.
  The latest example arose on 11 June this year. When I returned from my fifth visit to Bosnia I urged that British troops should participate in a successor to IFOR. We could not fail to do that, because we could not afford to throw away all the good work that we had done. Only last week, the Secretary of State finally agreed on the line that we had taken.
  Now we hear the Secretary of State acclaiming the expansion of NATO. We were arguing from the Dispatch Box in favour of that in January 1994, and I am pleased to hear that it is now the policy of Her Majesty's Government. I was also delighted to hear President Clinton's announcement in Detroit only last week that new members would be admitted to NATO by 1999—appropriately, as that will be the 50th anniversary.
  We believe that it is right and proper to try to take those arguments forward, and that is what we have done in our attempt to achieve a consensus. However, there is still a lot of work to do.
  On the subject of land mines, the Government have been laggards. During the past year, I have been to Cambodia and Bosnia and seen the effect of anti-personnel mines on civilians—and, indeed, on soldiers. In north-east Cambodia, I was struck to find that about 70 per cent. of military casualties had been inflicted by mines. Anti-personnel mines are the enemy of the soldier as well as the civilian in many cases. For that reason, many American military commanders—including Norman Schwarzkopf and General John Galvin, the former NATO military chief—have urged President Clinton to introduce an embargo and, of course, the President has accepted that.
  Despite that pressure, progress towards achieving a world free of land mines has not been good. This year saw the virtual collapse of the inhumane weapons review conference in Geneva, where only a small number of limited changes were accepted. This simply was not good enough for the men, women and children—and the soldiers—who have suffered so cruelly from anti-personnel mines.
  There are those who say that nothing can be done, but they are wrong. Our Government must be at the centre of multilateral talks and taking a positive line. I must admit that, for one brief moment at the end of last year, I thought that they had decided to make a positive move. It appeared that the Government were prepared to support a ban on anti-personnel land mines, and there were headlines in the newspapers to that effect. But when the details of the Government's policy came out, the reality was exactly the opposite.
  The Government had announced that they would destroy half their stocks of anti-personnel land mines—a welcome move. However, they then announced that they would modernise the other half of their stocks. As British firms have not manufactured such land mines for more than a decade, we will either have to develop the manufacturing capacity in Britain or import mines from countries such as China. In taking either of these options, Britain will be actively encouraging the trade and manufacture of land mines—something that the Government claim to oppose. I hope that we can persuade the Government to change their mind on land mines.
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  One of the advantages of having this debate so soon after the debate on the defence estimates is that we can pursue some points that were not clear before the Gracious Speech. Last week in the estimates debate, I highlighted the issue of overstretch in our armed forces—an issue initially raised by the hon. Member for Wimbledon. I remind the House that although we have cut defence spending by more than a third, our armed forces are more committed than at any time since the end of the second world war. Frankly, many of our units left in Germany and at home are virtually hollow, and we are getting by only because of the dedication and commitment of the personnel in our armed forces.
  Having made up to one third of armed forces personnel redundant, it is unbelievable—yet true—that the Government now have a shortfall in all three services and have not been able to recruit to the full. It takes a special kind of genius to achieve that, but the Government have that. During last week's debate, I was interrupted by the Minister of State for the Armed Forces, who argued that the Army and the military are
  "in a difficult position because they are trying to recruit the high-quality young men and women who are also being sought by the burgeoning British industry".—[Official Report, 14 October 1996: Vol. 282, c. 494].
  When the Minister of State for the Armed Forces interrupted, I had been making the point that I could not understand why the Army could not recruit in the traditional recruiting areas for the infantry, especially the counties of northern England and in Scotland. I have since discovered that, in my constituency, on Tyneside, about 26.5 per cent. of young men between the ages of 17 and 25 are unemployed. These are the traditional recruiting grounds, so why are the Government unable to recruit?
  The truth is that the issue of overstretch, referred to by the hon. Member for Wimbledon, who has considerable military experience, has got through to young men and women. I am afraid that I must tell the Defence Secretary that morale is being affected, and he needs to look at this issue much more seriously. Indeed, he needs to look at training once we have recruited people. A systematic study should be conducted at a high level within the Ministry of Defence to establish a rigorous system for deciding how much training should be conducted centrally and how much at a more diffuse level in the field Army.
  Mr. Nicholas Winterton: I am listening to the argument being advanced by the hon. Gentleman and I have a great deal of sympathy with what he is saying about overstretch, which was reflected by my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Dr. Goodson-Wickes). The hon. Gentleman did, however, say earlier that the Opposition would consider a strategic defence review. If it became apparent from that review that additional resources were necessary to enable Her Majesty's forces to undertake all the functions and responsibilities that they have throughout the world, which, as the hon. Gentleman said, are now greater than at any time since the second world war, would his Government provide the money?
  Dr. Clark: I understand the sympathy that the hon. Gentleman has for me, because I remember the fight that he had on behalf of the Cheshire regiments.
  Mr. Miller: And others.
  Dr. Clark: My hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston was also very much part of that campaign, and I know how hard they both fought to try to ensure that the regiments were maintained.
  The hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) makes a fair point. We have said that we will provide whatever resources are needed for the defence of Britain, but it is important that we match our commitment with the resources available. That will be the role of our strategic defence review.
  I have tried to argue that there are areas on which there is consensus and areas on which there is potential consensus. There are, however, some things that we believe the Government have got completely and utterly wrong. Their obsession with privatisation really is bizarre. No other country in the world would sell off the strategic asset of the married quarters of its military, especially to a foreign country. It is just bizarre. It not only imposes a great deal of uncertainty on thousands of Army and military families but it imposes a real limitation on the flexibility and deployment of our forces and has placed a financial albatross around the necks of successive Secretaries of State for Defence for decades to come.
  What is worrying is that the Government's privatisation mania knows no bounds. They really are sell-off mad. The Defence Secretary's dogma has overcome his common sense. We have seen what privatisation leads to when Tornado aircraft are refitted. Airworks Ltd., a company at St. Athan's, actually wrecked a Tornado. It was only because of the skill of RAF technicians and personnel that we found the damage that had been done. It was not only financial damage, running into tens of millions—or even hundreds of millions—but RAF pilots were expected to take those wrecked aeroplanes up, all in the name of the mania of privatisation.
  Today's news was the final straw. Cowies, the major bus company in the constituency next to mine, made its fortune by buying second-hand military motor cycles, repainting them and selling them back to the public. It is interested in buying Challenger 2 tanks and leasing them back to the Army on a monthly basis. That may amuse the House, but it is the Government's latest ploy, and it is plain daft.
  Mr. Menzies Campbell: The hon. Gentleman is perhaps being a little hard on the Government over this sale and lease-back proposal. We had exclusive responsibility for our tanks immediately prior to the Gulf war, but it took three armoured divisions in Germany to enable us to put one armoured division in the field to assist the allied effort in that war.
  Dr. Clark: The hon. and learned Gentleman is right. The military effort of the Warsaw pact was poor, but to be frank, ours was not much better. Thank God it was that much better, and we were able by other means to destroy the Warsaw pact.
  I used to think that privatisation was a bit of a joke. I also used to joke that the Government should take their arguments to their logical conclusion. Why do they not go the whole hog and privatise our armed forces? The Navy could go to P and O and operate under flags of convenience: that would be the best way. The RAF could be franchised to Virgin Atlantic Airways, although I fear that this Government would choose Freddie Laker. The
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  Army could go to Securicor or Channel 4—[HON. MEMBERS: "Group 4."] Group 4. Tragically, as each day passes those jokes turn into reality. A future Government may be so desperate that they will have to take such action.
  The Government have mismanaged change since the end of the cold war, leaving our armed forces grossly overstretched. Only the dedication of our armed forces has allowed us to get through. The Government have failed to undertake a strategic defence review. We have had no assessment of the threats facing our country, and we have no way of matching those threats. The new Labour Government will do just that and in doing so will not only give our service men and women a fairer deal, but provide a more secure Britain in a more secure world.
  9.32pm
  The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. Michael Portillo): This is the second time in 10 days that we have heard the hon. Member for South Shields (Dr. Clark) make that speech. It did not improve with time. He requires a little more rehearsal on the punch lines if he is to get his jokes in. On the whole, however, in the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Dr. Goodson-Wickes), this has been an extremely civilised debate. It has included some very distinguished contributions.
  I was not present for a short period, so I did not hear all the contributions, but my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, North (Mr. Elletson) made a distinguished speech, and my hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) toured the world in 15 minutes. My right hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Mr. Howell) has the talent of being able to step back from the world scene and observe the trends. He sees the way in which our world is developing and the shifting centres on our globe. He can perceive the advantageous position that Britain occupies in that world: a Britain playing a global role; a Britain with a language that gives her a particular advantage, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary said in his opening remarks.
  We had the good fortune to hear from the hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Ross), who is a governor of the Westminster Foundation for Democracy. I join him in paying tribute to that organisation for its good work.
  The hon. Member for Dundee, West and my hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley asked important questions about Rwanda and Zaire, which is an area of great concern to the House. Both Governments deny beginning cross-border shelling. We have appealed bilaterally to Rwanda and Zaire to calm the situation. We have received assurances from both sides and the situation seems to have calmed.
  Hon. Members spoke about refugees in southern Kivu. Our posts in Kingali and Kinshasa are closely monitoring the position and keeping in touch with UN agencies and the non-governmental organisations. We are concerned by reports of a large-scale internal displacement at Kivu, but so far there has been no major refugee flow across the borders.
  My right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary met Zaire's Prime Minister Kengo during his visit to London on 22 October and discussed the recent escalation of conflict in eastern Zaire. He encouraged him to remain

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  in close contact with all the regional leaders and to do all that he can to defuse the tension with Rwanda and among the different ethnic groups in eastern Zaire.
  The hon. Member for Dundee, West was concerned to know what part we would play in making sure that the elections were free and fair. They will not be held until May but we are considering what help the United Kingdom can give to ensure that they are free and fair. We are supporting the work of the Ligue des Electeurs, which is a Kinshasa-based NGO promoting democracy in Zaire. Experts from the European Union and the United Nations are also assisting in the work of the national electoral commission.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon said that he had unfashionable views about the enlargement of NATO. His remarks seemed to find an echo in the interventions of my right hon. Friend the Member for Honiton (Sir P. Emery) and my hon. Friend the Member for East Lindsey (Sir P. Tapsell). The subject was also mentioned in a distinguished way by my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Staffordshire (Mr. Fabricant).
  I should make it clear that NATO enlargement is part of a number of processes that are going on within NATO. It is obviously adapting to the post cold-war world and is restructuring, planning for new missions and welcoming France and Spain into a new integrated military structure. Therefore enlargement should be seen as one of many changes that will produce a different alliance. NATO does not see itself as being hellbent on its own expansion. It is not an aggressive organisation wishing to take in more and more members—rather the initiative has rested with the applicants who have made a strong moral appeal to NATO. They have put it to us that they would have been members of the western family of nations decades ago if they had not suffered for such a long time under communist regimes. We must acknowledge a moral obligation towards them.
  NATO is certainly not a political club: it is a military alliance, but the process by which nations try to reform themselves and their procedures to qualify for membership of NATO has a strong effect on entrenching their democracies and, of course, NATO will insist on clear evidence that these are permanently established, pluralistic societies before it can admit them to the alliance. Military alliance it is, but one cannot deny that there is also a political dimension to accession.
  We are conscious of Russia's attitude. Of course it has security concerns. We want to make it perfectly clear that there is nothing aggressive about NATO's expansion. We certainly want to build with Russia a new European security architecture. Some believe that we should delay the process of enlargement during the period of difficulty in Russia while President Yeltsin suffers bad health. My view is rather that, in an uncertain position, the obligation on NATO is to inject whatever certainty it can. By sticking to the moderate, but clear and certain timetable that we have developed, we inject certainty into that position.
  None of us is able to define precisely what the new European security architecture involving Russia will look like. We cannot describe the finished product, but we can distinguish the first steps that should be taken. In particular, with Russia's work alongside the implementation force in Bosnia, we have found that we have had to establish certain liaison arrangements between
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  Russia and NATO. Those arrangements have been working well. They can be extended and made permanent. Yesterday, I had the pleasure of meeting Colonel-General Shevtsov, the Russian representative to IFOR, at Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe in Mons.
  NATO has also gone out of its way to explain its policies to a succession of Russian Ministers. I have met Minister Grachev, the former Defence Minister. Minister Rodionov recently attended a meeting with NATO Ministers. General Lebed was recently in Belgium to receive a briefing on the way in which NATO viewed the future. NATO generals stressed to him that NATO has a firm mission for peace enhancement.
  A coherent strategy now forms an important part of NATO's day-to-day work, which is about co-ordinating exercises and activities under "Partnership for Peace" to extend security in Europe, from the Atlantic to the Urals. NATO clearly does and must retain the article 5 responsibility in the NATO treaty, and ensure that we are prepared to exercise that responsibility, but in its day-to-day work, NATO is strongly engaged and absorbed in the peace enhancement mission. That strikes a chord with Russians.
  Mr. David Howell: My right hon. Friend is extremely interested in this issue and has obviously thought about it deeply, but will he reassure us that the peace enhancement concept developed by the generals does not include, contrary to anything said in the House today, any question of buffer or non-aggression zones between Russia and the rest of Europe? Russia has its own back yard in central Asia, but the region should all be eligible for inclusion in the European security system under NATO.
  Mr. Portillo: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. I can imagine nothing worse for the countries concerned than to be regarded as a buffer zone. That terminology, that concept and that idea play no part in NATO thinking.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon discussed the new role that has been given to the Western European Union. It is worth dwelling on that. At the North Atlantic Council meeting in Berlin this year, a historic decision was taken that it would be possible in future for there to be European-only operations, which would use NATO assets, in particular NATO headquarters, which would include Americans. They would, however, be European-only operations and the political authority would rest with the WEU. That puts the WEU on the map in a way that has not been true before. It also, by the way, increases the importance of ensuring that the WEU is not subordinated to the European Union.
  For all the reasons that my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary gave in his opening remarks, the EU, which has members with an honourable tradition of neutrality, but which are not committed to collective defence, is not a suitable body to oversee the WEU's task. The WEU will remain a body whose full members are both members of the EU and NATO members.
  I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, North that a common foreign and security policy cannot be driven by institutional change. It would be impracticable and inconceivable to decree an institutional arrangement that had the effect of obliging countries in Europe to adopt foreign or security policies in which they do not believe.

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  The hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell), my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Harborough (Mr. Garnier)—who made a most distinguished and polished speech based on his experiences as a monitor—the hon. Member for Glasgow, Central (Mr. Watson) and other hon. Members referred to Bosnia. I reiterate that we must put the horse before the cart. We must begin with an overarching political strategy devised by the international community, which must put in place its support for the democratic processes, suggest ways of helping to improve the quality of policing, define the role of the international financial institutions and discuss how rebuilding the country's infrastructure and other work will be co-ordinated.
  All that must be done before we can decide whether there will be a follow-on force to IFOR, its size and objectives. I understand the impatience felt in the House and elsewhere, but I have described the right order in which to proceed. Meanwhile, nothing was lost at the meeting of Defence Ministers at Bergen at the end of September. We tasked the military authorities with preparing a series of contingencies, so that the necessary planning is ready in any eventuality. Since we last discussed Bosnia in the House 10 days ago, the decision was taken by Mr. Frowick to postpone the municipal elections. There were strong arguments for postponement. There were fears about the adequacy of registration and of holding an election in the depths of winter—when the roads would be bad and the nights long—involving places that have no electric light. There were considerable difficulties.
  That decision has implications for force levels in Bosnia. It was anticipated that the drawdown of the implementation force would be postponed substantively until the municipal elections had taken place. We will now see a different shape of drawdown, but still nothing will be done during the course of it that would prejudge the decision about any follow-on force.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley made interesting points about the threat to peace, which need to be carefully assessed. About 35 countries outside NATO are equipped with up-to-date tanks and artillery. Many of them have armies numbered in hundreds of thousands. There are 40 air forces outside NATO with modern offensive aircraft and 30 countries have submarine forces.
  I may say in parentheses to the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Mr. Miller) that the Government are in negotiations with GEC Marconi, which is the preferred bidder for the Trafalgar class batch 2. If we can achieve an acceptable price, we hope to place the prime contract early next year. Although delays are always frustrating, the Government's record over the past year or two of placing orders for the British Army, Royal Air Force and Royal Navy makes me feel proud. We have recently placed orders for three frigates, and for two assault ships to replace HMS Fearless and HMS Intrepid. We have ordered the Apache attack helicopter for the Army, confirmed that we want to go into production with the Eurofighter, and ordered the cruise missiles and anti-armour weapon that will be deployed on the Eurofighter, as well as the Nimrod 2000. I was pleased to hear from my hon. Friends how welcome those orders were.
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  On the question of threat, there are 20 countries outside NATO which possess ballistic missiles now. Some of them have crude technology, but it is improving fast. Even today, some NATO territory is within the arc of threat of some of those missiles fired from the middle east. North Korea is exporting missiles. If it exports its more advanced systems, more NATO nations will be brought within range. There is a risk that, despite our best efforts, stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction will grow and spread. Over a dozen countries have either the capability to deploy chemical or biological weapons or have development programmes which are at an advanced stage. Some of those countries can already produce a warhead for a ballistic missile for those weapons systems.
  The likelihood of conflict in our world is, if anything, increasing. We have seen how, with the end of super-power tension, others have been emboldened to push their territorial and ideological ambitions. My right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary talked about moving away from the bi-polar world. We have seen recently overt aggression by some states and the covert export of terrorism by others.
  We cannot even relax our vigilance over nuclear weapons. The international community was surprised to discover the progress that Iraq had made with its nuclear weapons programme. We will need to sustain in Iraq an intrusive monitoring regime to prevent it from reviving that programme. We will need to monitor North Korea's compliance with the nuclear commitments that it has entered into.
  We have been shocked by the discoveries we have made about the weapons of mass destruction programme in Iraq. The United Nations Special Commission has discovered more and more evidence of the extent of that programme and Iraq has failed to co-operate with those investigations. It has made every effort to hide the extent of what it has been doing.
  Russia's armed forces are clearly not what they used to be during the cold war. Russia's forces have grave problems, but they are large and have a considerable quantity of sophisticated weapons, both conventional and nuclear. Russian capability in strategic nuclear missile submarines has not diminished. That, alongside the reform process in Russia, is one of the factors that we must take into account when assessing the potential security needs of Europe.
  Our planning needs to take account of all the places where conflict could occur. I have looked at an assessment of the potential crisis points around the globe. The last assessment I read had 53 entries of potential crisis points, including the Balkans, the Transcaucasus, Algeria, Libya and Iraq. Seventeen of those potential trouble spots are within just 200 miles of NATO's borders.
  There is no reason to believe that territorial or ethnic disputes are on the decline—quite the contrary. We must add to that potential disputes that could occur over natural resources such as oils, minerals and even water. A common feature where such regional tensions exist is arms proliferation. Dictators impress and intimidate their populations and their neighbours by acquiring weapons of mass destruction. The more responsible nations respond by matching those countries if they can, so as to build up their deterrents. Even where Governments are currently well disposed to us, we need to consider the potential impact of political instability.

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  With the end of super-power tension and the spread of democracy there is the potential for a better world. However, the world has not become good overnight and it is at present no less dangerous. As the risk of global catastrophe has reduced, the risk of geographically limited conflict has increased. We are not in a position to abolish extremism, greed and intolerance, but we can deter them and we can stop them winning.
  All that makes me believe that it is extremely important that NATO should remember that it is a military alliance. There is a tendency for some people to believe that the future for NATO is likely to consist largely, or even exclusively, of peacekeeping operations. Although I recognise that there may be many more Bosnias to come, I would caution against believing that that will be the template for the future of the world.
  As recently as 1991, we were involved in a high-intensity conflict against Iraq—an aggressor with very large amounts of artillery and armour and fairly capable modern aircraft. In the event, we overcame that aggressor, with mercifully few casualties. But even Iraq in 1991 should not be our yardstick for what may come in future. Weapons are becoming more sophisticated, and it is conceivable that we would meet an aggressor, a dictator, much more capable than Iraq was in that year.
  We therefore need to ensure that our military alliance, NATO, which has been so successful in the past, which has had credibility, and which has been able to maintain its deterrent capacity, retains its interest in, and its commitment to, hard defence.
  I make this point vis-a-vis enlargement. It will be important that countries that wish to become members of NATO recognise the responsibilities that are placed on them by membership. Although they wish to benefit in part from the political aspects of NATO membership, the full benefit will come to them if they are part of a military alliance that is as credible and effective as NATO is today.
  Some of my hon. Friends who do not support NATO's expansion may fear that the rigour in that alliance will be loosened. Although that is a reasonable suspicion, we are determined to ensure that it is not realised.
  Mr. Menzies Campbell: I suspect that the Secretary of State has the support of the whole House for what he said, but are we not also required to be anxious about—to use a word of the moment—the drift downwards in defence expenditure among many NATO members? If we are anxious about extending rigour to those who wish to join, should we not be similarly anxious to ensure that the existing members are still able collectively to fight the high-intensity warfare that the Secretary of State rightly mentioned?
  Mr. Portillo: The hon. and learned Gentleman makes a good point.
  If I may say so in response to the hon. Member for South Shields, it is not only Britain whose defence expenditure has been reduced. Since 1985, the European
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  average has reduced by a third in real terms and today, European countries spend a good deal less of their gross domestic product on defence than does the United States.
  I was reading some of the figures yesterday. Seven European countries spend less than 2 per cent. of their GDP on defence. The hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East makes a valid point, but what has been remarkable about Britain is that we have been willing to take tough decisions, we have taken out the numbers in the armed forces and in the civil service, we have not held on to redundant estate and therefore we have been able to achieve great efficiency.
  The fact that I was able to tell the House that, in the past year, we have ordered cruise missiles for submarines and for aeroplanes and all the other assets that I mentioned earlier, shows that Britain, at her present level of commitment, is capable of engaging successfully in high-intensity conflict if necessary.
  That is because we are a country with global responsibilities. We are an island, but we have never been little Englanders. We have always had to trade with the four corners of the globe. That has made us very outward looking. Today we are still a global trading, global investing, globally conscious country, dedicated to the spread of democracy throughout the world; dedicated, through free trade, to the spread of wealth, which, as was well observed during the debate, underpins democracy, drives up living standards and makes the terrorist less welcome.
  We have a responsibility for security in the world. We play our part, as we demonstrated in the Gulf and in Bosnia. We are a highly deployable country. Britain will go on playing its part in world affairs, by deed as well as by words. As long as there is a Conservative Government, we will be a reliable ally.
  It is difficult to arrive at a consensus with the Labour party, because many of its Front Benchers were supporters of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament. They made a fundamental misjudgment about the key decision of the second half of the 20th century, and I, for one, simply cannot trust Labour on defence.
  Debate adjourned.—[Mr. Ottaway.]
  Debate to be resumed tomorrow.

  PUBLIC ACCOUNTS
  Ordered,
  That Mr. Peter Thurnham be discharged from the Committee of Public Accounts and Mr. Charles Wardle be added to the Committee.—[Mr. Ottaway.]

  STANDARDS AND PRIVILEGES
  Ordered,
  That Sir Geoffrey Johnson Smith and Mr. Doug Hoyle be discharged from the Committee on Standards and Privileges and Sir Archibald Hamilton and Mr. Ernie Ross be added to the Committee. —[Mr. Ottaway.]

  Hospital Services (Newbury)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Ottaway.]
  10 pm
  Mr. David Rendel: I am delighted to have the opportunity today to raise the issue of hospital services in Newbury, and I am grateful to Madam Speaker for giving me the opportunity. Before I start, however, I feel that I should make my position clear—to avoid any possible accusation of sleaze—by saying that my wife is a general practitioner who works in the health service in Newbury. Therefore, I have a personal, if somewhat indirect, interest in the matter, which I hope that the House will accept puts me in an even better position to speak up for the interests of all those who are concerned about the future of hospital services in Newbury—whether as patients, staff or in some other capacity.
  I shall begin by setting the scene. Newbury currently has two small hospitals. The first—Newbury district hospital—was originally built in the 19th century. I should repeat that fact, because it is hardly credible: Newbury district hospital was built in the last century, more than 100 years ago. It has, of course, been developed in fits and starts since then, and not all the buildings are quite that old. The original buildings, however—the heart of the hospital—are more than 100 years old.
  Within that heart, the hospital has two wards: one for men and one for women. The wards are used to treat some 2,000 in-patients and day case surgery patients each year. Perhaps more important, however, the hospital also treats 24,000 out-patients each year. It also provides X-ray and pathology services, and a minor injuries unit.
  The other hospital in Newbury—Sandleford hospital—is even older. It was originally built as long ago as the 1840s, and one can get some idea of what the hospital is like when I say that it was built as a workhouse. Sadly, it used to provide many more services than it does now, but gradually it has been run down in the constant expectation that the new Newbury hospital was about to be built.
  Sandleford hospital is now used primarily to care for elderly patients, for rehabilitation or to provide for those who, sadly, have enduring mental health problems. The hospital also contains a more modern block—the Charles Clore Macmillan day unit, which is the most modern block of any of the hospital services in Newbury—which serves cancer patients and those who have life-threatening illnesses.
  After hearing about the current situation, it will not surprise the House to learn that hospital services in Newbury have long been an issue of great concern to everyone living in west Berkshire. As a result, in election after election, the Conservatives have promised the people of west Berkshire that a new hospital would be built. They promised it in 1979. They promised it in 1983, and they promised it in 1987. They promised it in 1992, and they promised it again during the Newbury by-election, in 1993. By that time, of course, not many people still believed the Conservatives' promises—as the people of Newbury showed in that by-election.
  Our concern for west Berkshire's health services was greatly increased in the mid-1980s when the town, loyally supported by the local paper, the Newbury Weekly News, had to fight off plans to close the existing Newbury
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  district hospital without any replacement. We were delighted to win that battle. Localised hospital services are a crucial part of any health service built round the needs of people, rather than the convenience of bureaucracy. However, that win was by no means the end of the long-standing struggle to secure modern hospital facilities to serve west Berkshire.
  On a recent visit to the current hospital, I spoke to a senior nurse. She began her training at the hospital in 1960, and is now nearing retirement. She told me that she hoped that she could still look forward to working in the new hospital before she finally retired. Amazingly, she also told me that she remembered that when she started training in Newbury 36 years ago, the trainee nurses were even then being assured that a new Newbury hospital was due to be built shortly.
  In case anyone should think that that nurse was exaggerating, let me quote from today's edition of the Newbury Weekly News.One article in the section called "Old Memories Revived"—often the most interesting and revealing part of the newspaper, where articles taken from previous editions are reprinted—refers to a joint meeting of the Newbury town and district councils that took place exactly 30 years ago today, on 24 October 1966.
  The article, headed "No New Hospital for 10 Years", says:
  "Newbury must make do with its much-criticised district hospital for at least another 10 years,"—
  I remind hon. Members that the article was written in 1966—
  "members of the Newbury Town and District Councils were told at their first joint meeting on Monday. A letter from the secretary of the Regional Hospital Board informed them that there were long-term plans for a new 400-bed hospital at Newbury,"—
  would that the hospital currently planned had anything like 400 beds—
  "but it was not expected to be built until 1975–76.
  The news was given to the meeting by the Town Clerk who had asked the board what proposals there were for improving hospital facilities.
  Dr. R. Warwick-Brown of Thatcham, added that a new hospital in Newbury was so far down the priority list that it might not be built before the 1980s."
  I only wish that the very worst predictions of the 1960s had come true—that is, the construction of the new hospital in the 1980s.
  People in Newbury are patient; we are used to waiting. The one thing that everyone now knows about Newbury is that we have had to wait for more than 30 years for relief from chronic traffic congestion—we are still waiting—but 36 years, a whole generation and more, is far too long to wait for a new hospital. Even now, there is no end in sight.
  The excellent health service staff work wonders to provide the level of service that they do and they are greatly appreciated by the people of Newbury, but our doctors and nurses have their hands tied behind their backs. Day in, day out they strive to overcome the problems of working in 19th-century buildings. Inevitably, it is impossible for them to work as efficiently and as effectively in their patients' interests as they could in more modern buildings.
  The fact that patients and visitors have to cross a busy main road to get from the car park to the hospital is not good enough; the fact that hospital services are split

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  between two sites is not good enough; and the fact that 18,000 trips a year have to be made to the Reading hospitals because of insufficient facilities in Newbury is not good enough. That is a huge number of unnecessary journeys, often made by people in considerable pain, and even those figures ignore the visits that may be made by patients' relatives. When one adds to that the fact that Battle hospital in Reading is due for closure, one can see that the pressure on the other main hospital in Reading—Royal Berkshire hospital—will become acute. That is also an excellent reason why the new Newbury hospital is needed so soon; it would relieve much of that pressure.
  The number of both in-patients and out-patients due to be served by the new facilities is roughly double the number who can be treated in the present Newbury district hospital. What is more—I should have thought that even the Government would accept this point—the cost of treating Newbury people in Newbury hospital is far less than the cost of treating them in Reading.
  In case there is any doubt about the effect on service standards of the ancient facilities that I have described, I shall report briefly what happened when I took up a complaint from a constituent with the Nuffield orthopaedic centre. In its response to my letter, it put the point simply:
  "The facilities available to us at the Newbury District Hospital are of a poor standard, which does not allow the Orthotist to provide the standard of service that he/she would like to."
  But of course the Government accept that the facilities offered by the aging hospitals in Newbury are not good enough. The case has been made and it is clear for all to see. Indeed, before the Government introduced their health service reforms and transferred the hospitals to the new Priority Care trust, it had long been agreed in principle that a new hospital should be built.
  But the agreement in principle was not enough for this Government. Although in every other part of the country it is accepted that it is the job of the national health service to provide facilities for the health care of local people, the Government decided that in Newbury's case, a large chunk of the necessary finance would have to be provided by the people of Newbury themselves.
  The Newbury Hospital Helpers League, of which I am proud to be a member, was persuaded to pledge the proceeds of a very generous bequest from a Miss Rook towards the cost of the new building. Not only that, but the Government then insisted that the value of the land was not sufficient and that it should, therefore, be given planning permission for development to enhance its value. A green-field site which, in all likelihood, would never otherwise have been developed, was sacrificed by the local population, desperate as we were to make sure that the Government had no further excuse for putting off the hospital any longer. That very precious green-field site makes up part of the strategic green gap between the towns of Newbury and Thatcham. That site would never have been given development permission were it not for the very special community need that the new hospital represents.
  I suggest to the House that the people of Newbury have already more than played their part in making it easy for the Government to go ahead. In fact, had the health service reforms to which I referred a moment ago not put the whole question of what to do and when to do it back into the melting pot, there is little doubt that the new hospital would have been built by now.
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  Even under the new regime, the proposals for a new hospital were accepted by Berkshire health authority in December 1995. They were then accepted by Anglia and Oxford regional health authority in June this year. That is not exactly great progress in 36 years, but at least it is something. We are getting closer. But the frustration felt by the people of Newbury is now met by another brick wall—the private finance initiative. It has already become abundantly clear that the PFI has been a failed attempt to privatise by stealth. However, it has also been a smokescreen for cuts in capital investment.
  There may well be some areas where the PFI has a role to play, but when public health needs have been established, the PFI must not be allowed to introduce additional delays, as has happened in this case. Public health is just too important for that. So the health service is not the best place for the Government to experiment with private funding.
  What the people of west Berkshire want from the Government is a cast-iron assurance that funds to build the new hospital will be forthcoming now. What the staff and patients of Newbury district hospital want are decent, modern facilities that afford the best available standard of care.
  The country is crying out for investment in its infrastructure. When will the Government put aside their ideological insistence on private finance and provide that infrastructure? The whole point of the public purse is to fund public benefits. There can be few greater public benefits than first-class hospital services.
  I look forward to the Minister's assurance that the people of Newbury will have their hospital by the end of the century and, I hope, in good time before that long-suffering nurse, whom I referred to at the start of my speech, retires.
  Newbury has more than fulfilled its side of the bargain. It has provided a very special site and granted a special planning permission to raise the £2 million of charity funding that the Government have demanded. Newbury has permitted the health authority to redevelop the current hospital sites. It has been patient beyond all reasonable expectation.
  It is now time for the Government to fulfil their half of the bargain, and I call upon the Minister to do so tonight.
  10.15 pm
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Mr. John Horam): I was grateful to the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Rendel) for choosing as his subject for tonight's Adjournment debate "Hospital Services in Newbury". The debate has brought to my attention yet another local picture of an NHS that not only is providing high-quality care but has real ambitions for the future.
  The West Berkshire Priority Care Service NHS trust runs two small hospitals in Newbury. In both hospitals, a range of quality community services is provided, albeit from ancient buildings.
  Newbury district hospital has a core of late Victorian buildings, with a typical hotchpotch of development throughout the century. Sandleford hospital occupies a building with a familiar history in terms of NHS building—a former workhouse now transformed to provide around 50 beds. It houses the much-valued

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  Charles Clore Macmillan day unit for patients with cancer or other life-threatening illness, and has a broad range of clinics.
  Between the two hospitals, sterling work is done for the people of Newbury, as I am sure the hon. Gentleman would agree. Consultants from the Royal Berkshire and Battle hospitals in Reading provide services in Newbury, giving local access to first-rate acute care. Out of hours, the hospitals are in the safe and familiar hands of the local general practitioners.
  It is a credit to all the staff who work in the area that patients charter and waiting list standards are consistently achieved. The current NHS performance guide shows the trust obtaining a clutch of five-star awards for the services that it provides.
  I was particularly pleased to learn of the improvements which the trust has recently been able to make in the provision of a nurse-led minor injuries clinic in Newbury, which has also brought some relief to the GPs in the area, including the hon. Gentleman's wife. Meanwhile, patients requiring full-scale accident and emergency services are well cared for in Reading at the Royal Berkshire and Battle hospitals. Next year, the introduction by the Royal Berkshire Ambulance NHS trust of a priority dispatch system—one of only four in the country, as Berkshire was chosen as a pilot area—should also mean more rapid transfer for those whose need is paramount.
  Newbury GPs are in the vanguard of the development of GP fundholding, with the latest wave of applications from GPs who wish to become fundholders. The benefits of the scheme, which puts GPs in direct control of the care that their patients receive, will be extended to some 70 per cent. of people in Berkshire.
  That is the current position—what about the future? Berkshire health authority's purchasing plan for 1997–98 holds much that is of great interest to the people of Newbury and I hope that the hon. Member for Newbury will read it carefully, and offer his comments to the authority.
  Among the plans of particular interest to the hon. Gentleman's constituents is the agreement which has just been reached on the re-provision of services for those severely mentally ill adults who are currently living at Fair Mile hospital. As part of the agreement, discussions will be taking place about the model for local community services.
  GP fundholding has, for the first time, given general practice a central and powerful role in shaping local services. To extend the benefits of this fundamental change, health authorities are required to involve GPs in their own planning processes. Since 1 April, Berkshire health authority has worked in conjunction with local GPs to establish six localities—including one for Newbury—to consider how all GPs can become fully involved in the commissioning of local services for local people. In Newbury, the locality group has settled on its priorities for change, and they are reflected in the health authority's purchasing plan.
  Newbury stands on the verge of its biggest leap forward in hospital services since the creation of the NHS. The plan to build a brand new £16 million community hospital to replace both Newbury and Sandleford hospitals would
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  give local people the facilities that they certainly deserve for the 1990s and beyond. A new hospital between Newbury and Thatcham would improve access to services for many people. It would provide the full range of current services. Through the use of the latest medical advances, it would allow the number of patients enjoying the considerable benefits of day case surgery to rise to around 4,000 each year. In all, the amount of care provided locally would almost double. For a great many people—the hon. Gentleman referred to the number of journeys—journeys to Reading and back for examination and treatment would become a thing of the past.
  Not only will local services improve with the building of the new hospital but the overall running costs to the health authority will fall, as the hon. Gentleman implied, since services in Newbury can obviously be provided at less cost than those in Reading.
  As with any building project, of course, planning issues have had to be resolved before the business of building the new facility could begin in earnest. The sale of the Wash Water site will provide some £2 million towards the cost of the new hospital. The project has been thoroughly discussed at the appropriate planning forum and I certainly do not propose to dwell on such planning matters now. Suffice it to say that the trust has been willing to scale down development plans for the site in accordance with local concerns, and there certainly will be no development at Wash Water unless and until the new hospital becomes a reality. That is a commitment.
  As the hon. Gentleman has made clear, the proposed new hospital for the people of Newbury is to be financed through the private finance initiative. The Newbury scheme benefits, however, from the experience of those who have already trodden the PFI path. As we now know, the scheme is precisely the type for which the benefits of the PFI will be most readily available. It is relatively small, on a green-field site, and benefits from a high level of contributions from land sales and the support of the health authority and local GPs. It is also based on sound activity assumptions and is unencumbered by further major land or planning issues.
  The hon. Gentleman said that the private finance initiative was delaying the building of a new hospital for the people of Newbury. Nothing could be further from the truth. Indeed, under the old system of "public funding or nothing", the new hospital, which, as he said, has been an aspiration for many years, received precisely nothing. Now he suggests that the hospital should return to its place in the queue for public money. As he says, it was low on the list of priorities—so it would be low in the queue. Such an approach would simply set things back.
  Under the PFI on the other hand, the plans have achieved approval in the outline stage from the health authority and the NHS executive. A steering committee including local GPs has been established to drive the project forward. It will work closely with everyone else who has an interest to ensure that the hospital is built on target. With those advantages, there is no reason why the scheme should not progress smoothly and swiftly through the PFI process and present the people of Newbury with a new hospital fit for the new millennium. The present estimate is that the building will begin in 1998 and be completed in 2000.
  The Government's commitment to modernising the NHS is second to none. The NHS building programme is the largest of its kind in the world. Even excluding the

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  £500 million-worth of PFI schemes that have already received final business case approval, the programme includes more than 275 projects, each valued at more than £1 million. I remind the House that every £1 saved, whether by use of the PFI or by any other means, is £1 more available for patient care.
  The hon. Gentleman commented on the PFI in adverse terms, but when the National Health Service (Residual Liabilities) Bill was before the House earlier this year, it was his hon. Friend the Member for Southwark and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes) who said that the real issue was
  "ensuring that there is an accountable way of getting value for money irrespective of whether projects are in the public or private sectors."—[Official Report, 12 March 1996; Vol. 273, c. 841.]
  234
  I agree. That is exactly what the PFI process is all about.
  I remind the hon. Gentleman that the only time NHS spending was cut was when the Liberals last had a say in government. Health spending has increased in each of the past 17 years, and will continue to do so under this Conservative Government and future Conservative Governments. This year, that has meant an extra £13.5 million for the NHS in Berkshire—a rise well ahead of inflation. Indeed, it is the 10th biggest rise in the country. That strong record of investment means that the hon. Gentleman's constituents can look to the future of local hospital services with confidence.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at twenty-five minutes past Ten o'clock.

HOME DEPARTMENT

  Metropolitan Police
  Mr. Dykes
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement on the recent report by Her Majesty's chief inspector of constabulary on the specialist operations department of the Metropolitan police. [229]

  Mr. Maclean
  Yes. I have today placed in the Library a note of the recommendations from the report, together with the Commissioner's responses and the police authority responses, which take into account the advice my right hon. and learned Friend and I have received from the Metropolitan police committee.

  Immigration Laws
  Mr. Dykes
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the outcome of the programme of work arising from the scrutiny of enforcement of immigration laws which he announced on 18 July 1996. [230]

  Miss Widdecombe
  The programme of work announced by my right hon. and learned Friend in July 1995 was designed to implement the findings of an efficiency scrutiny which examined ways in which the Government as a whole could work more effectively to strengthen immigration control and to prevent those temporarily or illegally in this country from receiving state benefits to which they should not be entitled.

  I am pleased to say that the scrutiny process is now complete. It has successfully:
  created a coherent legal framework which bars immigration offenders and temporary visitors from access to important and expensive benefits such as child benefit, family credit and publicly subsidised housing assistance;
  made it an offence under the immigration laws for temporary visitors to have unauthorised recourse to public funds;
  established a general policy on the identification of persons subject to immigration control who claim benefits or services to which they are not entitled through the revision of departmental instructions, the production of a guidance booklet and the opening of the immigration and nationality directorate's status inquiry service to more registered users;
  strengthened the arrangements, within existing data protection legislation, for the exchange of information between Government Departments, agencies and local authorities in order more effectively to administer benefits policy and more quickly to identify and locate immigration offenders. A copy of a circular about the exchange of information with IND issued to local authorities has been placed in the Library.

  Exchanges of information with IND are all conducted within the provisions of the data protection laws. The Commission for Racial Equality has been consulted about proposals on which its advice was important to ensure the maintenance of good race relations in this country. The measures taken have laid the basis for anticipated public
  2
  expenditure savings of over £100 million in the next three years. They will strengthen our immigration control and will greatly reduce the incentives for those seeking to enter or remain unlawfully in the United Kingdom.

  Some of the work is incomplete because it will necessarily stretch beyond the normal time limits of the scrutiny process. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Employment is considering linking eligibility for both student awards and home fee status classification to those who are lawfully settled in the United Kingdom under the immigration laws. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health is considering better ways to identify those persons from abroad who are not eligible for free medical treatment. Such work will be taken forward by the Departments concerned.

  The Government believe that it is wrong that people who are admitted to this country on the basis that they can provide for themselves or who are here illegally should receive benefits paid for by the taxes of lawful residents. The measures we have now taken and the work currently in hand will see that they do not.

ENVIRONMENT

  Building Research Establishment
  Mr. Faber
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement on the future of the Building Research Establishment. [388]

  Mr. Gummer
  On 2 October, the Construction Industry Council sent to me the business plan developed by the construction industry for a national centre for construction, thus meeting the deadline I set out in my reply of 2 April to a question from my right hon. Friend the Member for Watford (Mr. Garel-Jones). I am grateful for the work the industry's representatives have put into the preparation of this plan which I have considered very carefully, but I have concluded that it does not provide a satisfactory basis on which to enter a single tender negotiation to transfer BRE to the private sector. As I advised the House of 2 April, my next option is to privatise BRE through a competitive sale. I am therefore putting in hand at once the action necessary to seek tenders.

  Petrol Vapour Recovery
  Mr. Congdon
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what progress has been made in implementing in the United Kingdom the European Commission stage 1 petrol vapour recovery directive. [652]

  Mr. Clappison
  We are laying regulations in Parliament today, under the Environmental Protection Act 1990, to implement the EC directive (94/63/EC) on the control of volatile organic compound emissions resulting from the storage of petrol and its distribution from terminals to service stations. These are important measures which aim to reduce emissions of the volatile organic compounds which contribute to the formation of ground level ozone.
  3
  The directive requires the fitting and use of equipment, in the distribution and storage of petrol, which is designed to capture and recover petrol vapours rather than venting them into the air as at present. The provisions of the directive will be implemented in a phased programme running through to 2004.

  The Government have decided to apply a derogation in the directive which exempts from its provisions small service stations in areas where emissions are unlikely to contribute significantly to environmental or health problems.

  The regulations laid today include a map showing the areas in which the derogation will apply to new small service stations. These are in rural areas in the northern half of Scotland where petrol vapour emissions do not contribute significantly to ozone formation and ground level ozone is not itself a problem. The directive applied immediately to any proposals for new service stations which are not eligible for the derogation.

  The provisions of the directive do not apply to existing small service stations until 2004. The areas in which the derogation will be applied to these stations will be defined closer to that date, using the best scientific information then available.

  Legislation to implement the directive with regard to petrol tankers was introduced in August in amendments to the Carriage of Dangerous Goods Regulations.

  Direct Labour and Direct Service Organisations
  Mr. Devlin
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what further action he proposes to take against those local authorities whose direct labour and direct service organisations failed to meet their statutory financial objectives in 1994–95. [653]

  Sir Paul Beresford
  On 30 July this year, 22 statutory notices were served on 17 local authorities concerning the failure of their direct labour and service organisations to meet the required financial objectives in 1994–95, and one notice was served on an authority for submitting a qualified account for work which it was carrying out. My right hon. Friend has now considered the responses to those notices, and has decided to give 16 directions to 12 local authorities.

  The directions take the following forms:
  Restricting the type of work the authority can carry out, and preventing the authority from carrying out any part of the work if it fails to meet the financial objective in 1996–97 or 1997–98:
  The London borough of Brent (building maintenance).
  Preventing the authority from carrying out the work if it fails to meet the financial objective in 1997–98 or 1998–99:
  Great Yarmouth borough council (grounds maintenance).
  Preventing the authority from carrying out the work if it fails to submit unqualified accounts in 1995–96 or 1996–97:
  Mid Devon district council (building maintenance).
  Requiring authorities to retender the work and to seek the consent of the Secretary of State if proposing to award the work in-house:
  Amber Valley district council (refuse collection), Harborough district council (grounds maintenance), Stockton on Tees borough council (vehicle maintenance).
  4
  Requiring authorities to retender work if they fail to meet the financial objective in specified years, and to seek the Secretary of State's consent where the work has to be retendered and where the authority subsequently wish to award work-in-house:
  1996–97 and 1997–98: Knowlsey MBC (highways and sewers), Rossendale borough council (highways and sewers). The London borough of Tower Hamlets (building maintenance).
  1997–98 and 1998–99: Rotherham MBC (grounds maintenance).

  The Secretary of State has also decided to take no further statutory action in respect of financial failure in 1994–95 by:
  Bedfordshire county council (vehicle maintenance), Cambridge city council (building cleaning, refuse collection, other cleaning), Chorley borough council (highways and sewers), Halton borough council (vehicle maintenance) and North East Derbyshire district council (refuse collection).

  To date, 67 notices have been served by the Department on 47 local authorities for losses incurred by their DLOs/DSOs in 1994–95, and one notice served on an authority for producing qualified accounts. Today's decisions follow those announced on 13 May and 20 June this year, and complete the programme of financial failure action in relation to 1994–95 accounts.

  This action demonstrates our commitment to protect the interests of local taxpayers, and ensure that they receive value for money services from their local authorities. Where authorities' in-house teams have failed to achieve their financial targets, and where they do not seem to have taken the steps necessary to bring about an improvement in their performance, we will not hesitate to take statutory action.

  Environment Council
  Mr. Congdon
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement on the outcome of the Environment Council on 15 October. [654]

  Mr. Clappison
  Together with my noble friend the Earl of Lindsay I represented the UK at the Environment Council in Luxembourg on 15 October.

  Policy debates were held on the review of the fifth environment action programme and on the proposals to revise directive 90/219 on the contained use of genetically modified micro-organisms. In each case, the Council is expected to reach agreement in December. There were also useful discussions on the "auto-oil" proposals, the proposals for a revision of the drinking water directive and on the review of the Community waste management strategy.

  The Council agreed conclusions on the EU position for the third conference of the parties to the convention on biological diversity. The Council noted a report from the presidency on the progress which is being made on the negotiation of a protocol to the UN framework convention on climate change and on a framework agreement on humane trapping standards.
  5

TREASURY

  Economic and Finance Ministers Council
  Mr. Matthew Banks
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make a statement on the recent Council meeting of the Economic and Finance Ministers of the European Union. [190]

  Mr. Kenneth Clarke
  I represented the UK at the Economic and Finance Council—ECOFIN—of the European Union in Brussels on 14 October.

  The Council considered a Commission report on guarantee arrangements for lending outside the Union by the European investment bank. The main issues discussed were the coverage and level of the guarantees on EIB lending provided by the loan guarantee fund and the proportion of lending on which the EIB should find third party guarantees—that is, guarantees which do not fall on the EU budget or member states. No final agreement was reached, and this item will be taken again at a future ECOFIN meeting.

  Over lunch, EU Finance Ministers met EFTA Finance Ministers to discuss employment policy. A joint communique was issued which emphasised the need for macro-economic frameworks to support strong and sustainable economic growth, prudent budget policies and joint efforts further to implement the single market.

  Commissioner Monti presented the Commission's work programme on VAT. Over the period to 2000, the Commission plans to bring forward a series of proposals to overhaul the current EC VAT arrangements to allow tax authorities to collect revenue and tackle tax avoidance with greater certainty. There was no discussion of this item.

  The Council noted the report of the high-level working group on trans-European networks. This report rules out extra funding for TENs by a revision to the financial perspective and instead concludes that every effort should be made to remove all non-financial delaying factors.

  Labour Market Statistics
  Mr. Matthew Banks
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what changes to labour market statistics the director of the Office for National Statistics will introduce following the Steel report; and if he will make a statement. [191]

  Mr. Kenneth Clarke
  The director of the Office for National Statistics has conducted wide-ranging consultation on the Steel report both inside and outside Government. This showed some support for monthly publication of employment and unemployment and estimates from the labour force survey, but also doubts about whether the additional £7 million to £8 million annual cost of redesigned and enlarged survey represented value for money. An alternative option, costing an additional sum of around £200,000 a year, was also considered based on monthly publication of three-month rolling average estimates from the existing quarterly survey. The benefits of this in terms of informing macro-economic debate could, however, be diminished by potential problems of misunderstanding estimates which related not to individual months but to rolling three-month periods.
  6
  Accordingly, ONS will retain the current quarterly frequency of publication for the LFS. The Government have, however, accepted the recommendation, in the Employment Select Committee's report on unemployment and employment, that greater prominence should be given to the results from the existing quarterly LFS. ONS will be developing proposals for enhancing the dissemination strategy used for the survey in order to achieve this aim.

  Further details are set out in the Government's response to the Employment Committee's report sent earlier to its successor, the Education and Employment Committee.

  Share Trading (Stamp Duty)
  Mr. Matthew Banks
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make a statement on the progress of his proposals for stamp duty on share trading. [192]

  Mr. Kenneth Clarke
  I announced on 24 July 1996 that I intended to replace the current stamp duty on exemptions for market makers and broker dealers on the London stock exchange with a new relief for purchases made on any UK recognised investment exchange or European Economic Area regulated market by any firm fulfilling the role of intermediary on that exchange. The new regime would apply to all UK shares on which stamp duty is levied. Following detailed consultation by the Treasury over the last three months, I have now decided that it is not necessary to confine the relief available to intermediaries to purchases which are offset by sales within a given period. The introduction of such a time limit would impose additional compliance costs on firms; it would encourage a new type of tax-driven trading; and it would do little, if anything, to protect the revenue from stamp duty on shares.

  My central expectation is that the proposed new regime, without a time limit, should deliver broadly the same yield from stamp duty on shares as the current regime. However, in order to guard against any potentially significant losses in revenue which may emerge on the introduction of the new tax regime and the stock exchange's new trading system, I propose to take reserve powers to impose a non-zero rate of stamp duty on share purchases and other defined classes of transactions by intermediaries. These powers could be activated to prevent against loss of revenue arising from abuse of the extended relief for intermediaries' transactions.

  As well as replacing the current reliefs for stock exchange market makers and broker dealers, the proposed regime would also replace the existing stamp duty reliefs for market makers and principal traders on the London International Financial Futures and Options Exchange. Stamp duty relief would be available to LIFFE equity options intermediaries for equity purchases on other exchanges of the stocks in which LIFFE trades an option and the purchase is made on a recognised investment exchange or an EEA regulated market. LIFFE intermediaries would not necessarily have to become intermediaries on other exchanges in order to gain relief.

  Detailed provisions, reflecting these proposals, will be brought forward for the 1997 Finance Bill, with a view to implementing the new regime as soon as is practicable during 1997–98.
  7

SOCIAL SECURITY

  Disability Discrimination Act 1995
  Mr. David Porter
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what progress has been made to establish a Disability Discrimination Act telephone information line. [84]

  Mr. Burt
  I am pleased to announce that following a successful tender exercise, the contract to run the Disability Discrimination Act information line has been awarded to Merit Direct Ltd. The line will be operational by 2 December 1996. Literature and fact sheets on the employment rights and the rights of access to goods, facilities and services will be available through an operator, by textphone, and on the Internet. Additionally, the fact sheets will be available by fax. Initially an automated service may be used for re-ordering literature.

DEFENCE

  Reserve Forces Act 1996
  Mr. Devlin
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the progress to complete the work on the secondary legislation for the Reserve Forces Act 1996. [82]

  Mr. Soames
  Work to develop the necessary secondary legislation to enable the Act's new powers to operate is proceeding well. Both new regulations and amendments to existing ones will be necessary, with some requiring formal public consultation before they are made.

  That process of consultation has now begun. On 18 October we published a consultative document on schemes for exempting reservists from call-out and recall, and for financial assistance for reservists and their employers, provided under part VIII of the Act. The document is available in the Library of the House. As required by the Act, copies have been sent to representatives of employers, employees, the self-employed, and to the Council of Territorial, Auxiliary and Volunteer Reserve Associations. Copies have also been sent to those who responded to the last consultation exercise on the draft Reserve Forces Bill, and to selected reserve units. The consultation period finishes on 29 November and I would encourage all those that the regulations affect or who have an interest in them to read the document carefully and to send in their comments.

  I consider it most important to allow adequate time for interested parties to respond to our proposals, and for a measured assessment of those comments. I have therefore decided that the regulations, and the Act as a whole, should take effect from 1 April 1997 rather than 1 January 1997, the original target date for implementation.

  Challenger 2 Programme
  Mr. David Martin
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what is the current status of the Army's Challenger 2 programme; and if he will make a statement. [194]

  Mr. Portillo
  The Challenger 2 development programme was successfully completed, with all reliability targets achieved on development tanks.8
  Following a series of trials on early production tanks we identified a need to improve the reliability of some of the elements of production vehicles to meet the very high standards set. An agreed programme to achieve this is being undertaken by the contractor, Vickers plc, at no additional cost to my Department. Central to the programme is a sequence of production reliability growth trials with agreed technical milestones.

  The company has met the requirements set in the first of those trials, which was held in July. Challenger 2 has already demonstrated an impressive capability. I am confident that Challenger 2 will fully meet all our technical and reliability requirements in 1997. In order to ensure that the comprehensive logistic support arrangements that we require are properly established, I have agreed that the in-service date for Challenger 2 will be June 1998.

HEALTH

  Social Services Conference
  Mr. Sykes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will place in the Library copies of his speech to the social services conference in Edinburgh on 18 October and of the two documents whose publication he announced on that occasion; and if he will make a statement. [83]

  Mr. Burns
  In his speech on 18 October, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health announced the publication of a consultation document on setting the standards of conduct and practice for social services staff, entitled "The Obligations of Care". Copies are being sent out to interested parties this week. Comments have been requested by 28 February 1997.

  My right hon. Friend also announced the publication of Tom Burgner's report on his review of the regulation and inspection of social services, and gave the Government's initial response to it. Copies are being sent to interested parties this week. The Government intend to publish a White Paper on social services in January next year, and some more detailed responses to the Burgner recommendations will be given then. Meanwhile, we shall be initiating the necessary further consultations on particular issues with the relevant interests, whom we shall be approaching direct in due course.

  Copies of both documents and of the speech have been placed in the Library.

  Long-term Care
  Mr. French
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health when he proposes to establish a partnership scheme for long-term care. [389]
  9
  Mr. Dorrell
  The Government remain committed to the proposals for a partnership scheme set out in the consultation paper "A New Partnership for Care in Old Age", copies of which are available in the Library. In the light of responses to the consultation paper, they also intend to legislate to allow residents in care homes to "top up" the care arranged by their local authorities.
  10
  The Government intend to introduce a Bill as soon as legislative time is available. In the meantime, they are discussing the details of legislation with the financial services industry, representatives of local authorities, and other interested parties. They will publish a draft Bill, and a statement of their policy in the light of comments on the consultation paper, in the new year.

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Chichester.
Earl Brooke and Earl of Warwick—Earl Brooke and Earl of Warwick— Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.
Viscount Bearsted—Viscount Bearsted— Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

Civil Procedure Bill [H.L.]
The Lord Chancellor (Lord Mackay of Clashfern): My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to amend the law about civil procedure in England and Wales; and for connected purposes. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a first time.— (The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read a first time, and to be printed.

Merchant Shipping and Maritime Security Bill [H.L.]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Viscount Goschen): My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to amend the Merchant Shipping Act 1995; to extend the powers of fire authorities to use fire brigades and equipment at sea; to make further provision about the protection of wrecks; to amend Part III of the Aviation and Maritime Security Act 1990; to make provision about piracy; to provide for the continuing application to the International Oil Pollution Compensation Fund of Section 1 of the International Organisations Act 1968; to make provision about the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea; and for connected purposes. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a first time.—(Viscount Goschen.)
On Question, Bill read a first time, and to be printed.

National Heritage Bill [H.L.]
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Inglewood, I beg to introduce a Bill to extend the powers of the Trustees of the National Heritage Memorial Fund. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a first time.—(Baroness Trumpington.)
On Question, Bill read a first time, and to be printed.

Transfer of Crofting Estates (Scotland) Bill [H.L.]
The Earl of Courtown: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Lindsay, I beg to introduce a Bill to enable the Secretary of State to dispose of his crofting estates and certain other property of his in the crofting counties to approved crofting bodies; and for connected purposes. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a first time.—(The Earl of Courtown.)
On Question, Bill read a first time, and to be printed.

Theft (Amendment) Bill [H.L.]
Lord Goff of Chieveley: My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to amend the Theft Act 1968 and the Theft Act 1978; and for connected purposes. beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a first time.—(Lord Goff of Chieveley.)
On Question, Bill read a first time, and to be printed.

Horserace Totalisator Board Bill [H.L.]
Lord Kimball: My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to confer power on the Horserace Totalisator Board to receive or negotiate bets made otherwise than by way of pool betting. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a fist time.—(Lord Kimball.)
On Question, Bill read a first time, and to be printed.

Committee of Selection
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Boston of Faversham): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That in accordance with Standing Order 61 a Committee of Selection be appointed to select and propose to the House the names of the Lords to form each Select Committee of the House (except the Committee of Selection itself and any committee otherwise provided for by statute or by order of the House) or any other body, not being a Select Committee, and the panel of Deputy Chairmen of Committees; and that the following Lords together with the Chairman of Committees be named of the Committee—

V. Allenby of Megiddo,

L. Chesham,

V. Cranborne (L. Privy Seal),

L. Graham of Edmonton,

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L. Harris of Greenwich,

L. Jenkins of Hillhead,

L. McIntosh of Haringey,

L. Richard,

L. Strathclyde,

L. Weatherill.—(The Chairman of Committees.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

Address in Reply to Her Majesty's Most Gracious Speech
Debate resumed on the Motion moved yesterday by Lord Gray of Contin—namely, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty as follows:
"Most Gracious Sovereign—We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, beg leave to thank Your Majesty for the most gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament".
3.12 p.m.
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, I should like to begin by joining in the congratulations extended yesterday to my noble friend Lord Gray of Contin for the eloquence with which he moved this Motion for a loyal Address and also to my noble friend Lord Colwyn for the elegance of his seconding that Motion.
Once again the gracious Speech contains many proposals in the field of law, home and social affairs. I would therefore ask your Lordships' forgiveness if I am unable to offer more than a flavour of them in the time available.
I should like to begin with two Bills which I feel sure will be the subject of lively debate when they come before your Lordships from another place. The Crime (Sentences) Bill, which will apply to England and Wales, and the Crime and Punishment (Scotland) Bill share the same objectives and principles. They are intended to increase the protection of the public from serious, dangerous and persistent offenders. I am sure your Lordships would agree that it is the duty of the Government to ensure that those who are convicted know they will be dealt with effectively and appropriately.
The Crime and Punishment (Scotland) Bill is based on proposals published in the White Paper of the same name in June. It is broader in scope than the Crime (Sentences) Bill but, although naturally there are differences, which can be accounted for by the different legal systems and precedents in the two jurisdictions, it contains similar measures on sentencing. Most importantly, it abolishes parole, introduces a new scheme of earned early release and provides for mandatory life sentences for a repetition of certain sexual and violent offences, and minimum sentences for repeat offences of drug trafficking. It goes wider than the English Bill by including new provisions on evidence and procedure, including clauses on appeals criteria implementing recommendations of the report of
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the Sutherland Committee on Appeals and Miscarriages of Justice. The Bill includes powers to improve the system of administering criminal legal aid. It will enable the Scottish Legal Aid Board to specify the quality standards which are to be met by those providing it and the Government to pilot different approaches to its provision such as the use of contracts with firms.
At the core of the Crime (Sentences) Bill are the sentencing proposals outlined in the White Paper Protecting the Public. Many of your Lordships will recall the debate that took place on these proposals in the previous Session on a Motion so memorably moved by my noble and learned friend Lord Taylor of Gosforth in his last address to this House in his capacity as Lord Chief Justice of England.
The proposals fall into three main parts. The first is honesty in sentencing. We want the public and the offender to know that the sentence passed by the court closely matches the period that the offender is likely to spend in prison. At present it does not. This enrages victims and undermines public confidence in the criminal justice system. The Bill contains provisions to ensure that in future the time served by the offender will more closely match the sentence imposed by the court. The present arrangements for automatic early release and parole will therefore be abolished. Instead, prisoners will be able to earn a small discount by co-operation and positive good behaviour. All prisoners serving 12 months or more will continue to be subject to a period of supervision after release, and offenders who breach their conditions of supervision will be guilty of an offence punishable by imprisonment.
Sex offenders will face extended supervision after their release from prison unless there are exceptional circumstances. The extended period of supervision will normally be 50 per cent. of the sentence imposed or 12 months—whichever is the longer—but may be increased to a maximum of 10 years at the discretion of the court. The conditions of supervision could include a requirement not to communicate with the victims; to reside at a specific address; or to prohibit the offender from working with children.
Secondly, we propose that anyone convicted for the second time of a serious sexual or violent offence should receive an automatic life sentence unless there are exceptional circumstances. The offences which it is proposed should be subject to automatic life sentences include rape, attempted rape, attempted murder, manslaughter and the most serious woundings. The purpose of this proposal is to ensure that those offenders who have been convicted for a second time of such serious offences are not released from prison if it is judged that they continue to pose a real risk to the public. Such offenders will first have to serve the tariff set by the court to reflect the seriousness of the offence they have committed. After that they will be released if—and only if—the Parole Board is satisfied that they no longer present a risk. Otherwise they will continue to be detained, if necessary indefinitely.

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Thirdly, we propose that, except where there are exceptional circumstances, the courts should be required to impose minimum prison sentences of three years on offenders convicted for the third time of domestic burglary and seven years on offenders convicted for a third time of trafficking in class A drugs. Persistent burglars and drug dealers are a menace to society, and they should know that if they continue offending they will go to prison for a long time. The police have played their part by mounting operations targeted at known and persistent offenders. Under our proposals the offenders will know that they can expect a stiff sentence if they persist in offending. The whole object is to persuade such people not to persist further. There is a fundamental importance in achieving this result and it being known that this will be the consequence before the decision to commit the further crime is taken.
Finally, the Bill also contains provisions for a new hospital direction for the sentencing of mentally disordered offenders to be made available initially for those suffering from a psychopathic disorder; new powers for courts to impose a community penalty as an alternative to a fine for persistent minor offenders or as a penalty for fine defaulters; and new arrangements for the transfer and repatriation of prisoners. The public rightly expect protection from serious, dangerous and persistent offenders. The proposals I have outlined are carefully targeted at crimes of particular concern to the public. We believe urgent action is required to provide a real deterrent to such offenders; to punish severely those who continue to offend regardless; and most of all to protect the public from their activities. That is what these Bills are designed to achieve.
We will continue the fight against organised crime by introducing the remaining elements of the package of measures announced by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister last autumn. The Police Bill will unite the existing regional crime squads into a National Crime Squad. Existing regional command structures will be replaced by a unified structure with a national perspective which will place the National Crime Squad under the command of a director general of chief constable rank. The National Crime Squad will conduct pro-active, intelligence-led investigations into the activities of organised criminals at the inter-force, national and international level. At the same time, it will, at the request of chief officers, support forces in their investigation of serious crimes reported to them. The crime squad will work closely with the existing Scottish Crime Squad and with the Royal Ulster Constabulary but will have no specific remit in those separate jurisdictions.
The Bill will also meet the Prime Minister's objective of developing the National Crime Intelligence Service and establishing its identity separate from the Home Office. The service has a leading role throughout the United Kingdom in collecting, developing and disseminating criminal intelligence. It will also be headed by a director general who will be a chief constable and the police service will be its primary customers. But it is a multi-agency body and the contribution of Customs and Excise and other law enforcement agencies will continue to be crucial to its
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success. The service will be an important conduit for international co-operation. It will channel inquiries to Interpol, Europol and the United Kingdom's liaison officers.
The service and the crime squad will each be maintained by a new type of statutory body—a service authority. The service authorities will be rooted in local government legislation and modelled on police authorities. The service authorities will be independently chaired and include police authority, police and independent members, together with one representative from the Home Office. The National Crime Intelligence Service's authority would also include representatives from Scotland and Northern Ireland and from Customs and Excise. Some representatives will sit on both service authorities. The Police Bill will be introduced shortly in your Lordships' House.
The fight against those who abuse the benefit system will also continue with the introduction of a range of new measures in the Benefit Fraud Bill. Provisions will include the removal of unnecessary legislative barriers to the Department of Social Security accessing information held by other government departments and local authorities to assist in the prevention, detection and investigation of fraud. These measures will be carefully drawn to ensure that individuals' appropriate rights of confidentiality are respected.
There will be a new power to enable the Secretary of State for Social Security to inspect local authorities, which administer housing and council tax benefits on his department's behalf, and to make directions with regard to their anti-fraud work. We will also introduce additional penalties to strengthen the range of sanctions against those who defraud the benefit system.
The Bill will also introduce a range of targeted provisions to assist staff engaged in anti-fraud work in practical ways and to close some loopholes in the current system. The department's anti-fraud efforts have resulted in a three-fold improvement in the detection rate over the past three years. The measures in this Bill will ensure that further, significant improvements are made.
Over the past year there has been a wide-ranging debate about the future development of primary healthcare. One of the key points made by family doctors, National Health Service managers and others was that existing contractual arrangements in primary healthcare are sometimes too inflexible and can hamper local service developments. The Government will introduce a Bill which responds to this. It will create the necessary powers to allow new approaches to the delivery of primary healthcare services to be piloted. Our aim is to give healthcare professionals the scope to make still better use of their skills and to enable National Health Service managers to target resources on local healthcare priorities.
The legislation will enable general medical and dental practitioners to put forward new, local contractual arrangements with health authorities replacing the existing national contract. These new arrangements will be piloted, monitored and evaluated. Participation in pilots will be voluntary. Those practitioners who wish to

27
do so will be able to continue to practise under existing arrangements. General practitioners who choose to retain the existing national contract will also be able to agree local modifications to this with health authorities and boards.
The Bill will remove restrictions that prevent health authorities and boards from rewarding community pharmacists who provide a higher standard of service to their patients. It will also allow local flexibility and some simplification to be introduced into contractual arrangements for community pharmacies and optometrists.
The legislation will implement the recommendation in the Chief Medical Officer's report, Maintaining Medical Excellence, that appointments to single-handed practices should be made only where at least one candidate meets the standards set out in the job description.
This Bill will not impose a template for future services. Instead, it recognises that services are best planned by those closest to the people who use those services. We want to free local health service managers and healthcare professionals to work together to develop local solutions to local needs. The United Kingdom primary healthcare system is the envy of the world, and this Bill will allow it to develop its potential still further.
I turn now to Northern Ireland, where it remains the Government's hope that the multi-party negotiations will make progress towards the achievement of a political settlement which is broadly acceptable throughout Northern Ireland and more widely. We also continue to hope that the IRA will make it possible for Sinn Fein to join those negotiations by restoring its ceasefire and convincing us that this is not just another tactical device to be abandoned at any convenient moment. If that were to happen we, and, we believe, the other participants in those talks, would wish to work towards the implementation of the report of the international body set up to provide an independent assessment of the issue of decommissioning paramilitary arsenals—including its proposed compromise approach under which some decommissioning would take place during the negotiations. For that to happen certain legislative provisions would have to be made to enable the international body's recommendations on the modalities of decommissioning to be put into effect.
It is not possible to be confident at this stage that Sinn Fein will join the negotiations or that agreement will be reached on arrangements for decommissioning terrorist weapons. It is nevertheless important that the absence of necessary legislative provisions should not hold up any progress which may be made. Accordingly, the Government will shortly introduce legislation of an enabling character, reflecting the recommendations of the international body and intended to provide the statutory foundation for whatever detailed decommissioning arrangements may in due course be agreed.
Meanwhile, I can assure your Lordships that there will be no slackening in the determination of the Government, the relevant police forces and other
28
agencies to deter and apprehend terrorists and to seize illegally-held weapons and explosives wherever possible. I pay tribute to those responsible in this country and in the Republic of Ireland for substantial recoveries of terrorist arms and explosives in recent months and for the arrest of several people in connection with those finds. The horrific bomb attack in Lisburn on 7th October, in which Warrant Officer Bradwell suffered fatal injuries, illustrates why we must never drop our guard. It also emphasises the need to make whatever preparations are necessary to implement any decommissioning scheme which may be agreed in the context of the multi-party negotiations in Northern Ireland.
I hope your Lordships will forgive me if I now say a few words about a Bill which I myself will be promoting and indeed have already introduced today. The main purpose of the Civil Procedure Bill is to pave the way for implementation of the final report of my noble and learned friend Lord Woolf, Access to Justice, which was published in July this year. I should like to take this opportunity thank him for his tireless efforts and his sensible and far sighted conclusions. The Bill will seek to create the necessary rule-making powers to establish a unified rule-making authority for all civil procedure in the courts of England and Wales to replace the current Supreme Court and county court rule committees and will establish the framework for a unified and simplified set of civil proceedings rules. A draft of the core rules was produced by my noble and learned friend as part of his original remit into the review of civil justice and was published alongside his report in July. I envisage that the single set of simplified rules should help to reduce the cost of litigation, facilitate amicable settlements and encourage the use of alternative methods of dispute resolution.
The Bill will create a new Civil Procedure Rule Committee and set out a statement of its powers and jurisdiction to make rules of court. The Bill will detail the membership of the new committee. It has been my aim in constituting the new committee to ensure a balance of informed perspectives from the different levels of the judiciary, the legal profession and from the outside world.
The Bill will also include an approval procedure for county court practice directions. It is my intention that in future the making of any county court practice direction should require the approval of either the holder of the office of Lord Chancellor or that of a person authorised to act on his behalf in that regard. This will achieve a consistency of practice between county courts. I believe that this Bill will be the first step in achieving greater benefits for civil justice, which is so important to this country.
We will continue to implement the valuable work of the Law Commission by introducing measures of law reform as time allows. At the front of the queue, for instance, will be a Commonhold Bill to set up a form of freehold property ownership for owners of flats and other jointly occupied properties in England and Wales. Like me, I am sure that your Lordships will also welcome the Government's continued efforts to publish

29
Bills in draft for consultation where this is practical. We will, for instance, publish a draft Bill on the introduction of a voluntary system of identity cards, and a draft Community Care (Residential Charges) Bill containing measures to help people make better provision for their long-term care needs in old age. This will allow further consultation on these vitally important issues.
Your Lordships will be aware of the Government's decision to add two further items to the legislative programme for the coming Session: to create new criminal and civil measures to punish stalkers and to discourage them from harassing their victims; and to require those convicted of sexual offences against children and other serious sex offences to register any changes of address with the police—thereby ensuring that the police have up-to-date information on the whereabouts of such offenders. These are important measures, which the Government have long been determined to see on the statute book this Session. We shall be looking to the Opposition parties to make good their commitment to ensure them a speedy passage.
Finally, in the light of the recommendations made by Lord Cullen in his report published last week on the tragic events at Dunblane Primary School on 13th March 1996, the Government intend to introduce a Bill to tighten controls on handguns and a range of regulatory measures greatly to reduce the risk which they and other firearms pose to public safety. We believe that the controls and measures we are putting forward will go a long way in reducing that risk. I am sure that your Lordships would agree that this is a laudable aim and would also wish to join with me in thanking Lord Cullen for his valuable and thorough investigation, concluded, considering the nature of the matter, in such a comparatively short time.
I believe that the measures that I have only briefly been able to touch upon today are extremely important and relevant to the requirements of the British people. I sincerely hope that they will all reach the statute book in this short Session and so be of benefit to our public in years to come.
3.30 p.m.
Lord Richard: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor for his, if I may say so, discursive speech. He ranged widely over a number of topics. The House will be glad to hear that I do not intend to follow him into the range of topics that he covered. In the course of the next four or five days, various of my noble friends from the Front Bench will be pleased to follow the Government down the various roads that they have indicated.
I felt today that it would be more appropriate for me to speak on the first day of the debate on the Royal Address rather than winding up on the last day, as is the more usual practice. I came to that conclusion for two reasons: first, because it is our intention to move a reasoned amendment to the Address which the House may feel apposite, given that this is the last gracious Speech of this Government. Secondly, in relation to this gracious Speech, what is not in the Speech is rather more than what is.
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As the House may have seen in the Minutes of Proceedings, the amendment is in these terms:
"but regret the failure of Your Majesty's Government to manage the nation's affairs in a manner which preserves social cohesion and integrity within the United Kingdom and the country's reputation abroad".
I am advised that the appropriate procedure would be for that amendment to be formally moved on the day on which a vote is to take place. In those circumstances, the amendment will be formally moved next Wednesday by my noble friend Lord Peston and we would anticipate that the House would divide on that day.
The terms of the amendment are wide. They are intended to be. As this is the last of the Queen's Speeches of this Parliament, it is appropriate that we cast our minds back over the whole record of Conservative administration, not merely to 1992 but to 1979. I wish therefore to take a somewhat broad view this afternoon.
Seventeen years, my Lords; no excuses for the state of the nation today; no Labour Government that the party opposite can blame. Power has been vested in that party now for 17 years and soon it will have to account for its stewardship.
The terms of our amendment are carefully chosen: cohesion and integrity. Cohesion is in many ways the acid test of any government's success or failure. Is the country more at peace now with itself than it was 17 years ago? Are the institutions of government more or less respected? Is there a greater or a lesser feeling now of involvement, identity and community? Many of the Government's policies are judgeable by that one test of cohesion. I suggest to the House and to the country that in applying that test they have failed.
The country is not more at peace with itself now; quite the contrary. There is no feeling that the Government have advanced fairness, either as an objective or in reality. I do not recollect people sleeping rough all over London 20 or 30 years ago. I certainly never expected in my day to see an almost permanent pool of unemployment running at about 2 million, even after the Government have so adjusted the criteria for the compilation of the figures as to present them in the most favourable light.
I also never expected to see the emergence in our society of a depressed underclass, nor that real poverty would again occur in 20th century Britain. Nor do I believe that Conservatives of the Macmillan vintage—if I may use that phrase—would ever have accepted the situation. It is a formidable indictment of the past 17 years of Conservative rule.
Nor, looking at the economic situation, did I ever expect to see such a collapse of British manufacturing industry. I was brought up to believe, as a somewhat naive individual, that the basis of British prosperity was the export of British manufacture. No longer so. The relationship of manufacturing to total UK production has fallen from 29 per cent. in 1979, when the Conservatives came in, to less than 21 per cent. now.
The UK's trade balance—a very interesting figure—went into deficit in terms of manufactured goods in 1983 for the first time since the Industrial Revolution.

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It has stayed there ever since 1983. Investment in manufacturing is less now, after 17 years, than it was in 1979. Since June 1990—even as recently as that—700,000 manufacturing jobs have been lost. It is a sobering picture.
As for the public finances, I spare the Government's blushes and will not go into that. I merely say that the national debt has doubled since the Government came in; that the interest on the national debt is now apparently £25 billion a year—more than we spend on transport, on law and order, on housing, the heritage and environment and even more than we spend on defence. That is despite the receipts from privatisation which ran, I am told, at £81 billion and also the proceeds of North Sea oil.
The public finances are in a mess and when the pieces have to be picked up, the overwhelming chances are that it will not be the party opposite that has to do the picking up. There is not much sign of economic competence there; nor is there much to help social cohesion.
The second element in our amendment is integrity. That implies two things: first, an absence of corruption in our public life, and also the integrity of our constitutional arrangements. Let me say a word or two about those two matters.
So far as the first is concerned, I am grateful that the Select Committee in another place, together with Sir Gordon Downey, is to investigate that. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Nolan, has tried, and in this House the Committee of the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, has perhaps been more successful, but there is still a very large mountain to climb. We all know that people are losing faith in our political institutions and in the integrity of politicians, and that is hardly surprising. Perhaps I may give one example. It is relatively important, though not massive. The amendment to the Bill of Rights tagged on to the Defamation Bill in this House is a good example of why public faith in our institutions of government is being eroded.
On the David Frost programme last week, the Prime Minister said:
"why did I help steer a Bill through the House of Commons so that Neil Hamilton could take his case to court".
Later, he said:
"we took legislation through".
I participated in the debate in this House. We were assured by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor that the Government are neutral on this point. Mr. Hamilton sat in the Gallery of this House and watched the so-called free vote on the issue. What a slender reed he turned out to be. Our having amended at his behest one of our fundamental constitutional statutes going back to 1689 specifically so that he could sue, his passion for litigation seemed to evaporate as the doors of the court opened in front of him. I regret that I cannot acquit the Government of their part in that disreputable affair.
It is necessary that the matter should be cleared up. The amendment to the Bill of Rights passed in such a cavalier manner should be repealed and a Select
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Committee of both Houses should be appointed to examine the whole question of the Bill of Rights in the light of modern conditions. That, I know, is the view of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon of Glaisdale, who spoke in forthright terms in the debate in this House on 7th May.
In concluding this part of my remarks, I merely say that the whole issue of sleaze and corruption in public life is damaging not only to the individuals concerned but to Parliament as a whole. In the same David Frost interview the Prime Minister said:
"I am determined that this matter shall be fully examined and by fully examined I mean fully and properly examined by Gordon Downey who will then report to the appropriate House of Commons committee, and it would be my expectation that that report would subsequently be published".
We shall hold him to that.
I now turn to the integrity of our institutions. I had intended to say a few words about the composition of this House. I have more figures. I complained last year that there was nothing in the gracious Speech about the reform of the composition of the House of Lords. There is nothing in this year's gracious Speech about such reform. I assure the House that there will be something in the next gracious Speech about the reform of this Chamber.
The noble Lord the Leader of the House wrote recently that he now wants a Select Committee to examine the issue. Where has he been for the past 17 years? He says that reform of this House must be accompanied by reform of the other place. Where has that proposal been for the past 17 years?
It is not good enough for the Government suddenly to appear open-minded on this issue when they have remained silent for so long. I have heard of death-bed conversions, but this is ridiculous.
Nor is there anything in the gracious Speech on the integrity of our constitutional arrangements within the United Kingdom. There is no doubt that Scotland and Wales desire a greater say in the running of their own affairs. In Scotland the evidence is overwhelming.
Some way has to be found of accommodating those aspirations within the framework of the Union; otherwise the union itself will sunder. I, for one, wish passionately to avoid that. We are not talking about dissolution of the Union. We are talking about where some of the existing power should lie.
Scotland and Wales are separate nations. I speak as a Welshman. I am proud of my heritage, my language, my country and my culture. I say very seriously that we have to devise institutions capable of recognising separateness without provoking separation.
There is nothing in the gracious Speech to show that the Government are even considering these problems, let alone producing policies designed to solve this dilemma. Why not?
Every one of us knows that this gracious Speech is not designed to deal with the real problems facing the country, either in the economy or in the social fabric. This is a political document designed to wrong-foot the Opposition as best the Government can, and is being pursued for political ends. If further evidence is

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required, the extraordinary circumstances of the Prime Minister's U-turn yesterday is proof enough. To amend the Queen's Speech within four hours of its being delivered is a remarkable achievement. It may be right to have done so, but had the Government approached the Labour Party a little earlier they might have avoided this humiliation.
I am in the position, unique for me, of being able to quote on my side of the argument a leader in the Evening Standard. The paper is not normally known for its support for the Labour Party. However, I am glad to say that yesterday it contained comments that were remarkably apposite and correct. It stated:
"Opening the new session of Parliament today, Her Majesty the Queen might as well speak with candour—`My Lords and Members of the House of Commons, my speech mercifully will be shorter than usual. My Government has had to postpone half of its promised legislation because in six months time it has to go to the polls. The legislation it does propose to enact is intended to accomplish three objectives which it considers to be of supreme importance to the party and the country—to avoid confrontations with its own backbenchers in order to protect its majority of two; to appeal widely enough to voters to assist its re-election next spring; and to place my Loyal Opposition in a series of predicaments which will damage its own electoral appeal'".
This Speech is the precursor to the Conservative election manifesto. We shall judge it as such.
3.47 p.m.
Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank: My Lords, I was taken rather by surprise at the conclusion of the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Richard, which I was greatly enjoying. I do not intend to range as widely as he did today; but I greatly share his verdict on the Queen's Speech and I also agree with much of what he said about the state of the nation and the omissions referred to today.
The time has long since passed when any gracious Speech contained surprises. That has made the debate on which we are now engaged a rather contrived occasion. However, on this occasion, it is plain from the remarks of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor and those of the Leader of the Opposition that we are in a transition from a period of phoney peace to a period of phoney war which will continue until the dissolution.
I think it is fair to say that in every Parliament there is at this stage an absence of good government. Here, I take a generous view of what may have happened earlier. On this occasion it is not the interests of the nation that are being put first but, clearly, the interests of the party that seeks re-election when the time comes. This is a period of rampant populism. The Queen's Speech shows that the Government are behaving fully in character.
I think we would all concede that there are proposals in the Queen's Speech which deal with urgent problems which need immediate attention, such as the Dunblane tragedy; or command widespread cross-bench support, such as legislation on stalking and paedophiles. I shall come to those shortly. But they are the exceptions.
However, the coming months will not be entirely predictable. and perhaps we should be glad about that. Looking back on Whitemoor, Parkhurst and Everthorpe,
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on the Woodcock Report and the Learmont Report, the Government will probably have some prison escapes to report and explain away. Those will be serious for the Government because they have put security ahead of everything else in terms of prison priorities.
Equally serious will be disputes, of a kind with which the past two years have been peppered, between the Home Secretary and the head of the Prison Service about who is responsible for what. The last event was the extraordinary turmoil in August when the head of the Prison Service apologised for letting out 537 prisoners under an early release scheme without warning the Home Secretary. As your Lordships know, the Home Secretary takes the view that he is responsible for every achievement and the head of the Prison Service, whoever he may be, is responsible for every disaster. On previous occasions your Lordships have not shown much enthusiasm for that confident belief.
But there is no evidence that the relationship between the Prison Service as an executive agency and the role of the Home Office responsible to Parliament has yet been resolved. The noble Baroness the Minister will recall that in the debate in this House on 13th December last, one issue was the recommendation of Sir John Learmont that there should be an in-depth study of that relationship. The Minister announced that the review was under way and that the Home Secretary would report when it was completed. Almost a year later no such report has been given to either this House or another place and I am now led to believe that the review itself has been abandoned. I ask the Minister when she winds up to tell the House precisely what the position is now. If the review by Miss Kate Jenkins has been abandoned, why and how does that match up to the Home Secretary's promise to implement all the recommendations of the Learmont Report? The precise relationship between the agency and the Home Office is a proper concern for Parliament. So is the fact that a promised Statement appears to have been forgotten.
Last week, a broad welcome was given from these Benches to Statements made in another place and repeated here on Lord Cullen's report on the Dunblane tragedy. There was approval for the Government's decision to ban all high calibre handguns. There has since been time to reflect more fully on the wisdom and—I must emphasise—the practical problems of drawing a line (as the Government propose) which excludes .22 calibre handguns from such a ban. Widespread public debate will no doubt continue and many Members of your Lordships' House will wish to hear the arguments set out in full when the Bill reaches this Chamber and before taking a final view. I should expect no other. However, it is fair for me to say to the House that on present evidence I shall be recommending my colleagues to support a total ban on all handguns when the moment comes.
My noble friend Lord Harris of Greenwich, dealing with the Statement last week, referred to the question of compensation. The quantum of compensation will inevitably depend on the final decision of Parliament about how far the ban should go. But on the assumption that the Bill as published will follow the principles set

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out by Ministers last week, I hope that figures will be available at an early date together with an outline of the compensation scheme.
This time yesterday I was preparing to make the case against using a Private Member's Bill as the vehicle for legislation on stalking and a paedophile register and for government Bills to be introduced first into this House at the earliest opportunity. As the noble Lord, Lord Richard, reminded us, 15 minutes after the Leader of the House concluded our proceedings, I heard on the radio that the Prime Minister had conceded the case without a fight. Since the Leader of the House, the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor and the noble Baroness the Minister must have been equally as surprised as we were by the news, perhaps I should sympathise with them in their isolation. It is still quite extraordinary that the Bills were not included in the Queen's Speech—
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Blatch): My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for allowing the intervention. I wonder whether the noble Lord will say—it would be helpful for the whole House—whether the Liberals will offer the same degree of co-operation on those two Bills as the Official Opposition.
Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank: I shall come to that point in a minute. If the Minister will be patient, I hope to answer the question. In fact, I was welcoming the decision made by the Government and sympathising—I hope the Minister appreciates it—with the position in which she and her colleagues clearly put themselves.
In answer to her question, we shall certainly do all that we can to help the Bills along. But if they are to receive Royal Assent by Easter, the Government must introduce them soon and be prepared to make concessions to opinions expressed in this House. Noble Lords cannot suspend their customary duty of scrutiny, least of all given the problems of definition and the difficulties of legislating which were clearly set out in the Government's own consultation document published in July. Ministers sometimes forget but co-operation in your Lordships' House means give and take across the Benches and is not simply a response to a Government call to "fall in and follow me". I hope that the Government will be prepared to make concessions to this House, if that is what your Lordships wish. It will be in that spirit that we shall do our best to ensure that both Bills have a speedy passage.
We await the major Bill to which the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor made particular reference on mandatory life and minimum sentences. As it is to be published shortly, I do not wish to discuss the detail of it today. But there is one matter on which I hope we can hear from the Minister. Inevitably, as a result of the Bill—indeed it is one of its central purposes—more and more people will be sent to prison. Therefore, will the Minister spell out today in advance of the Bill precisely what the consequences will be for the prison population of this nation? Estimates will have
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been made; the Treasury will have been concerned about the cost; the Minister must know; and the House should now be told.
A year ago, during the debate on the Address, this House had before it the corporate plan of the Prison Service published the previous May. Among its underlying assumptions was a projection about prison population. Paragraph 3.4 of the plan read as follows:
"Our planning assumed that the prison population will continue to rise throughout the 1990s. From a low of 40,600 in December 1992, the population is now over 51,000. It is projected to reach 53,000 by 1997-98 … and 55.000 by the year 2001—an all time high".
That was the Prison Service corporate plan which was before the House a year ago: 53,000 sometime during the next financial year. That is what the plan said. But that figure has long been passed. On 6th September (seven weeks ago) it was 56,150. My latest figure is 57,354. The Minister may wish to improve upon'it.
The Director of the Prison Service, Mr. Richard Tilt, said that the prison population was going up at the rate of about 250 to 300 a week. Numbers are being reached four or five years ahead of forecast and they are accelerating. Mr. Tilt said that we needed a new prison every three weeks to cope with the present rate of expansion. I repeat my request to the Minister: given that that is the present position and that a Bill will shortly be before us and bearing in mind that it costs £24,000 a year to keep a prisoner in prison, will she tell the House now what estimate the Home Office has made of the additional number of prisoners likely to result from the Bill and what will be the estimated cost to the Exchequer?
But there is another and even more important point which is relevant to the Bill. Of course, as the Government claim, prisons take criminals out of circulation. To that extent it works simply because they are locked up. But it does not work if they are turned out into the community—however long their sentences may have been—more hardened than ever before in their criminal ways and therefore more likely to re-offend. If there is no attempt at rehabilitation, no money available, the cumulative effect of a rising prison population will he more crime, not less. It is wrong for politicians of any party to claim that more men and women in prison is a measure of success in dealing with crime. At best it is a temporary relief for the present generation at the price of pushing a worse problem forward onto their children and grandchildren in the years ahead. Those are central questions to the Government's record and today's debate. I hope we shall have answers to them.
Given the present high levels of crime; given the increase in the levels of crime spelt out in the surveys over the period of the life of this Government; and given the widespread fear of what seems to be an increasingly violent society, it is not surprising that people are looking beyond Parliament and politicians for answers. Individual tragedies like the killing of Philip Lawrence and the shootings at Dunblane bring a passionate cry for something better. But that makes it doubly important that we in this House and in another place do not exploit deep and searing personal experience or detach

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ourselves from the realities of what can be done. We should not be carried forward on the bandwagon of our own rhetoric.
I am profoundly doubtful about curfews for children and compulsory parenting. I see little point in a national scheme of good citizenship awards. I do not believe that we should make our decisions for the future on a romanticised view of the family as a happy husband and wife with 2.2 well brought-up children. We need to recognise the legitimacy of many non-traditional as well as traditional ways of life. I say that because we should be careful about turning deep and sincerely held personal convictions into a new and dangerous form of political ideology.
I wish to make one final point. I have said that the Government must find huge additional sums of money—we wait to hear precisely what they will be—to meet the cost of a rapidly increasing prison population. As I said, that is not the best way to deal with the problem of crime. We are certainly not going to heal the wounds in our fractured society unless we are prepared to spend money—on education, above all, but also on our inner cities; on relieving poverty and deprivation; and on alleviating the problems relating to housing and a physical environment which creates a climate of violence and despair. Spending money means raising money, and raising money means taxation; it would be dishonest politics to pretend otherwise.
4.4 p.m.
Lord Ackner: My Lords, the Home Secretary's credibility is currently under attack and has been so for the past three years. There are two schools of thought about his sentencing proposals which feature in the crime sentencing Bill, referred to briefly in the Royal Address. One school says that he is merely appealing to the gallery; playing politics with the administration of justice and taunting the Opposition that he is tougher on crime than they are. The other school contends that he is sincerely concerned that the public are inadequately protected from the criminals by the judiciary and his radical proposals to increase both the level and frequency of imprisonment are designed to improve that situation.
In deciding which school of thought deserves support, it occurred to me that your Lordships may be assisted by considering the contrast, as yet totally unexplained by Mr. Howard, between his recently published White Paper entitled Protecting the Public, upon which the crime Bill is based, and the Government's previous proposals, principles and policies put forward in the 1990 White Paper entitled Crime, Justice and Protecting the Public, embodied in the Criminal Justice Act 1991, which Act was described by the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, when he introduced it in March of that year, as,
"one of the most important criminal justice measures of our time. It will affect the way in which the courts operate and the way in which offenders are dealt with for many years to come".—[Official Report, 12/3/91; col. 73.]
Though Mr. Howard was not the Home Secretary in either 1990 or 1991, he was at all material times a Member of the Cabinet. I suppose some might say that the first contrast is between the two titles, the word
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"justice" being omitted from the current White Paper. I shall endeavour to show that the word "justice" is frequently referred to in the 1990 paper as qualifying the sentencing function.
Let me start with an early paragraph in the 1996 White Paper. At paragraph 1.5 it states:
"In the last few years we have developed and implemented a co-ordinated strategy on crime".
But the "last few years" cannot be extended back to the last five or six years when, by necessary inference from the 1996 White Paper, the Government were guilty of making the most fundamental errors. When did Mr. Howard see the light, and what was its source? What new material and research were responsible for his change of heart? In the words of the then Lord Chief Justice, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Taylor, in a debate he introduced on 23rd May,
"never in the history of our criminal law have such far-reaching proposals been put forward on the strength of such flimsy and dubious evidence".—[Offcial,Report, 23/5/96; col. 1025.]
On the general subject of the role of punishment, the 1996 White Paper states in paragraphs 1.10 and 1.11:
"It is important for society and for individual victims that those who break the law are suitably punished … The Government's role is to provide the statutory framework for sentencing, and to ensure that the courts have the powers they need to impose appropriate punishment in individual cases".
Your Lordships may note the different emphasis in the 1990 White Paper and how the words "just" and "justly" qualify the sentencing powers:
"Punishment has a major part to play in reducing crime, but its role must not be over-stated … The Government's aim is to ensure that convicted criminals in England and Wales are punished justly and suitably according to the seriousness of their offences; in other words that they get their just desserts. No Government should try to influence a decision of the courts in individual cases. The independence of the judiciary is rightly regarded as a cornerstone of our liberties".
I interpose to say that clearly we compromise judicial independence by obliging a judge to sentence unjustly as on occasions the minimum sentences and the mandatory life sentence provisions would oblige him to do.
As regards prison, the 1996 White Paper provides, in paragraph 1.12:
"The Government firmly believes that prison works. First, by taking offenders out of circulation it prevents them from committing yet more crime … Second, prison protects the public from dangerous criminals"—
one might think the second justification is included in the first—
"and third that prison—and the threat of prison—acts as a deterrent to would be criminals. Finally time spent in prison can be used to rehabilitate offenders, for example by improving their training or education".
Now compare this with what is stated in paragraphs 2.7 and 2.8 of the earlier White Paper:
"It was once believed that prison, properly used, could encourage a high proportion of offenders to start an honest life on their release. Nobody now regards imprisonment, in itself, as an effective means of reform for most prisoners. If there is continued progress against overcrowding in prisons, the recent reforms should enable better regimes to be developed, with more opportunities for education, and work, and so a greater chance of turning the lives of some inmates in a positive direction".

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I interpolate to make this comment as to the assumption of continued progress against overcrowding. There has already been a reference to the present state of the prisons—and that is prior to any increase that would result from this proposed legislation.
Since Mr. Howard became Home Secretary some three years ago, the prison population has risen from 43,585 to a record high of 57,354 and is said to be dangerously high. According to the last publication of the Criminal Justice Consultative Council, the prison population is set to rise to 58,000 by the spring of 1997, nearly 3,500 more than previously projected. It is confidently expected to reach some 60,000 this time next year. All that is with the full support of the Government. Your Lordships may remember that Mr. Mawhinney, the party chairman—criticised strongly in this House—at last year's party conference urged the public to write individually to judges when dissatisfied with their sentences. I again stress that this does not include the forecast increase which will occur if the proposals in the Crime Bill are enacted. The fruits of that legislation, it has been said, will add some 20,000 or more to the present total. Further, the recently imposed substantial prison budget cuts are bound to prejudice the development of better opportunities.
I read on from the White Paper:
"But however much prison staff try to inject a positive purpose into the regime, as they do, prison is a society which requires virtually no sense of personal responsibility from prisoners. Normal social or working habits do not fit. The opportunity to learn from other criminals is pervasive. For most offenders, imprisonment has to be justified in terms of public protection, denunciation and retribution. Otherwise it can be an expensive way of making had people worse".
Those views were echoed by the noble Lord, Lord Carr of Hadley, who, in the debate on 23rd May initiated by the former Lord Chief Justice, said:
"Prison is very expensive. It is essential for punishment and for protecting the public from dangerous men and women. Nothing can take the place of prison, but I have seen no evidence from this country or any other which does other than confirm me in the belief that I formed when I was Home Secretary that imprisonment is the most expensive and least effective way of deterring or reforming".—[Official Report, 23/5/96; col. 1052.]
I shall skip a few references to the inability of prison to act as an effective deterrent and come to the coup de grâce. Your Lordships will recall that that which has caused a considerable amount of judicial criticism is the proposal to impose minimum sentences in certain cases and mandatory life sentences in others. Contrast these controversial proposals in the 1996 White Paper with the unequivocal statements in the 1990 White Paper. Paragraph 2.6 reads as follows:
"It is not the Government's intention that Parliament should bind the courts with strict legislative guidelines. The courts have shown great skill in the way they sentence exceptional cases".
I interject to say—but the Government's case for the reforms is that they cannot trust the judges to impose appropriate sentences. I read on:
"The courts will properly continue to have the wide discretion they need if they are to deal justly with the great variety of crimes which come before them".
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Once more the "justness" of the sentence is emphasised. I read on:
"The Government rejects a rigid statutory framework, on the lines of those introduced in the United States, or a system of minimum or mandatory sentences for certain offences".
Now comes the justification for that rejection:
"This would make it more difficult to sentence justly"—
again the word appears—
"in exceptional cases. It could also result in more acquittals by juries, with more guilty men and women going free unjustly as a result".
Mr. Howard has suppressed any reference to these carefully considered and clearly expressed government views. Why so? What are his reasons for now thinking that his contradictory proposals would not result in more acquittals by juries, with more guilty men and women going free unjustly? If the jury is aware that the defendant faces a mandatory life sentence if convicted, would they not in some cases be less willing to convict than at present?
Dr. David Thomas QC, the editor of the current Sentencing Practice and the sentencing editor of Archbold, has stated in a recent article that the experience of many jurisdictions is that mandatory sentences seldom produce the effect their proponents intend. They are far more likely to result in acquittals, plea bargains, refusals to enter any guilty pleas and the reluctance of witnesses to testify. He further points out that far better ideas for dealing with dangerous offenders have been available for decades. The question was comprehensively examined by Lord Butler's committee on Mentally Abnormal Offenders whose report has been gathering dust on the shelves of the Home Office since 1975. Commonwealth countries, including Canada and Australia, have enacted legislation which deals with the problem in a more intelligent way than Mr. Howard now proposes.
Quite apart from the remedies which can be provided by legislation, if the judiciary are undersentencing, as appears to be Mr. Howard's clear opinion, why is not the Attorney-General carrying out his statutory function—and if needs be that statutory obligation could be extended—by bringing to the attention of the Court of Appeal such cases and submitting that discretionary life sentences are not being imposed in cases where they should be and repetitive burglars and drug offenders are receiving too short sentences.
It was only six years ago that the complaint was that the judges were being far too tough on crime, tougher than any other country in Europe, with the possible exception of Turkey. Hence the 1990 White Paper. Accordingly, their discretion to impose imprisonment was reined in by the Criminal Justice Act 1991 which obliged them when sentencing to ignore the defendant's previous record, his reactions to previous non-custodial sentences and all outstanding offences except one and even prohibited taking into account offences which the defendant himself asked to have taken into consideration.
When that Bill was debated in this House I warned that if judges were required to carry out their sentencing functions in blinkers, the result would be distorted

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sentences. That is precisely what occurred. Within a few months of the Act reaching the statute book it had to be appropriately amended, restoring to the judiciary its discretion. Now, according to the Home Secretary, the judges are under-sentencing and therefore once more their discretion is to be removed in certain cases by imposing minimum sentences and mandatory life sentences. I do not believe that the Government will be allowed by Parliament to learn nothing from their past follies.
Finally, I echo the words of the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh. In the debate on the Address on 20th November last year, at col. 215 of the Official Report, he said:
"If the Home Secretary means what he said at Blackpool in early October, then he is in for a great shock when he comes to this House. Those measures would not only be wrong in themselves but would be wildly expensive, would increase the prison population from the present 50,000 to at least 70,000 and probably more than that. I do not believe that such measures could get through this House. Even if a whipped majority in another place insisted on them, I do not believe they would survive the considered view of your Lordships".
I trust that that will be the case.
4.21 p.m.
Lord Windlesham: My Lords, I shall confine my remarks to the first and the last of the list of Bills itemised by my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor when he opened the debate; that is, criminal sentencing and gun control. I welcome unreservedly the prohibition on keeping any handgun in private homes. A number of responsible people in the world of competitive target shooting have long disapproved of that habit, believing that target shooters should keep their weapons in secure conditions at gun clubs. The exemption of .22 rimfire handguns from the total ban on higher calibre handguns is understandable, although it must be realised that these weapons too are lethal. It was .22 bullets that killed Senator Robert Kennedy. It was a .22 weapon which was used to assassinate Yitzhak Rabin. It was a .22 handgun that was used in the attempt on the life of President Reagan in 1981 in which his press secretary, James Brady, was gravely wounded and left permanently incapacitated. So here again the interests of the wider public have to be balanced against those of target shooters.
Then there is the question, raised by Lord Cullen in his fine report, as to how effective centralised storage would be in preventing the potential misuse of these weapons. Although some clubs have their own premises and secure facilities to keep their members' guns, many do not. One that did not was the Stirling Rifle and Pistol Club of which Thomas Hamilton was a member, although he was said to be "not competition oriented".
We should mark those words and their significance. It shows that individual motives for joining gun clubs can be very different. By no means are all those who join attracted by the opportunity to participate in disciplined target shooting as a competitive sport. For some, pistol shooting is less of a sport than a sensation of power.
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Among the reasons given by Lord Cullen against the proposal that handguns should be kept at shooting clubs was that, where clubs had their own premises, the concentration of a large number of guns in a single place, often in a remote location, would present an obvious target for organised theft. Upgrading the security of such premises, he said, would not necessarily discourage, and might even encourage, attack.
These factors seem to me persuasive arguments against the partial exemption of .22 handguns from the otherwise general ban. There are clearly going to be many practical problems if distinctions are to be drawn between one category of handgun and another. In my opinion, they would be best avoided as suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, by outright prohibition. But, as he rightly said, this is a large and complicated subject. We have the benefit of a detailed and well-informed report from Lord Cullen. These are matters that call for debate.
It is not possible to be so magnanimous about the sentencing proposals, which are forecast as an essential element of one of the Government's main planks in their legislative programme for the new Session. Here it is a matter not of going a little further in the right direction, as is the case with gun control, but going too far in the wrong direction.
The main objections to automatic life sentences and mandatory minimum sentences on conviction for certain repeat offences were forcefully deployed in a memorable debate initiated by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Taylor, in his last days before retirement as Lord Chief Justice in May this year. We have heard the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner, speak again today about these proposals and the impact they will have on the concept of justice.
I believe that the objections can be stated very simply in one proposition: that justice can only be done where a judge is free to fit the specific punishment for a particular crime to the circumstances of each individual case. Mandatory sentencing, imposed by legislatures because it appears to be a tougher policy than the alternatives, is bound to be a blunt instrument leading to injustice. Not only that, but it often causes unintended and unwelcome repercussions elsewhere in the penal system.
Let me take as an example the proposed mandatory minimum prison sentence of seven years on offenders aged 18 or over who are convicted of drug trafficking offences involving Class A drugs, who have two or more previous convictions for similar offences. That is a description based on the White Paper Protecting the Public. We have not yet seen the Bill, but there is no indication whatever that the Bill will depart from that formula.
Of course we can all agree that drugs are a menace, devastating the lives of misusers and their families. We can all agree that supplying illegal drugs for profit is a wicked and pernicious trade. The flaw in the Government's approach is that the seven-year minimum sentence will apply not just to professional dealers engaged in large-scale trafficking of the most harmful

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drugs, but also to the pathetic, often young, people who habitually sell small amounts of drugs to their friends to finance their addiction.
Court-ordered drug treatment, which is particularly well suited to this type of offender, will be ruled out by the Government's proposals. The minimum sentence set by law will apparently permit of no exemptions; certainly no exemptions by category. All must be treated similarly, with the result that young addicts who sell these drugs to other addicts in the same locality will get exactly the same sentence as the most hardened professional drug pusher.
The consequence of that inflexibility, we may be certain, is that the prisons will fill up with mainly young, low-level drug offenders, serving lengthy sentences who, furthermore, will have diminished educational opportunities. They will have no incentive to co-operate with the police by giving information about the big-time traffickers because there will be no prospect of a reduced sentence in return, unless plea-bargaining enters into our criminal procedures, as it has so disastrously in the United States.
I have drawn on the American experience before and perhaps I may do so for a moment or two again. In 1994 comprehensive crime control legislation was before Congress. It was the first genuinely comprehensive Act to be passed for 10 years. At that time 60 per cent. of inmates serving custodial sentences in federal prisons were drug offenders. Over half of all prisoners in federal custody were there because of their conviction for a drugs offence. Of those, more than 16,000—that is, 36 per cent. of all drug offenders—were classified as low-level offenders. Despite that, the mandatory sentencing law meant that they were required to serve very long sentences. I should point out that the figures I have given exclude the much larger numbers serving sentences in state prisons.
What happened in 1994? After a great deal of negotiation, the device of a so-called "safety valve" was adopted by Congress. That left in place the severe mandatory sentencing laws for drug offenders, but limited the application of the minimum penalties in certain cases. Among the qualifying criteria were that violence had not been used or threatened; that firearms had not been involved in the offence; that death or serious bodily injury had not resulted; that the defendant had not been the leader or organiser; that he was not engaged in a continuing criminal conspiracy; and that he had truthfully co-operated with law enforcement in providing information and evidence about the offence. The latter criterion for exemption is particularly important.
That is just one example of where the unforeseen and unwelcome consequences of mandatory sentencing, such as cost, overcrowding and the need to find prison space to incarcerate dangerous and violent offenders, have forced a change in the dogmatic rigidity of mandatory sentencing. How much better it would be for us to anticipate, rather than let a predictable crisis arise which would compel a change of course later. I urge the Government to consider carefully the whole range of
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likely outcomes—not just the additional prison places that will be necessary, but the impact of such a policy on each stage of the criminal justice process.
On the question of additional prison capacity, which is of central importance, I hope we shall hear from the Government that the implementation of the sentencing proposals (should they reach the statute book) will not commence until the new prison places are available. It takes time to build prisons. A great deal of money has to be found. It would be fatal to implement such proposals before adequate prison capacity is available. I hope that we shall hear more on that matter, if not at the conclusion of this debate, then certainly before long, because it is a crucial point.
4.34 p.m.
Lord Sewel: My Lords, the gracious Speech was this Government's last opportunity to outline their proposals for reforming our system of government. In the debate on the Constitution last Session, we on this side of the House sought to convince the Government of the need for change. Clearly, we failed—and there is little point in rehearsing now the arguments that we used on that occasion—but the need for reform is evident.
On the one hand, an increasing proportion of our fellow citizens feel alienated and excluded not only from the political process but, even more worryingly, from society as a whole. The rise of social and political exclusion may well be this Government's most damaging legacy. On the other hand, there are enormous grounds for optimism because there is evidence of people really wanting to have greater control over how public policy affects their lives and the lives of their communities, yet often they find our present structures remote and unresponsive. To both those who are excluded and those who feel frustrated, the present Government have nothing to say. They have turned their backs. The present Government have missed an opportunity, but we will accept the challenge.
Our proposals for a domestic parliament for Scotland, an assembly for Wales, and for the development of regional government in England have at their heart the belief that the decentralisation of power and the decentralisation of government will lead to a more cohesive society, a society in which concerned citizens can make a more direct contribution to those areas of policy which touch upon their daily lives and, in so doing, determine not only the quality of their individual lives but the quality of their communities.
Our commitment to decentralisation is firm, but decentralisation can take many forms. It would be a denial of the very value that we wish to protect if we sought to impose from the centre one uniform scheme covering the whole of the United Kingdom. Our proposals recognise the distinctiveness of the component parts of the United Kingdom. Clearly, the demand for regional government is stronger and covers a wider area of policy in Scotland than in some other parts of the United Kingdom. It is therefore right that those differences are recognised. It is also the case that there would be a contradiction or at best a paradox in seeking to impose a form of decentralisation without the

45
explicit consent of the people. In order to leave no room for doubt on that score, we seek the endorsement of the people through referenda.
That leads to serious and somewhat wider constitutional matters. I ask the party opposite to reflect on the wisdom and prudence of seeking to obstruct in this House the passage of a referendum Bill, a Bill designed to allow the people to express their view, a commitment to which will be contained in my party's manifesto at the general election.
If we are to succeed in regenerating and revitalising our political system, changing the structures will not be enough. We have to change the processes and in some areas recognise the demand for change in the way in which we conduct the practice of politics. I have been involved in the devolution debate in Scotland since well before the 1979 referendum and I believe that there are important differences between the circumstances that existed then and those that exist today. In the late 1970s, devolution was very much a debate within the established political class; within and between political parties.
Having spent the past few years travelling around Scotland and talking to many different groups, I believe that the idea of devolution is now more widely and deeply embedded in Scottish society. What has struck me most forcibly has been the number of people, often involved in the lives of their communities or in voluntary organisations, who are active, concerned citizens but who stand at one remove from the formal political process. Some are deeply sceptical of politics and politicians; others, particularly women, find participation in politics virtually impossible because of the very real obstacles of time and distance. Not only do these people underpin our civil society but they are the very people who see a Scottish parliament as providing an opportunity for them to make a wider contribution to the public life of their country. I believe that one of the most important challenges that face all political parties in Scotland is to ensure that these people of talent and quality have the opportunity, and are enabled, to make a full contribution to the new politics.
For many of us, the theatre of politics is part of its attraction but for others the confrontational, adversarial nature of politics makes political involvement deeply unattractive. In developing our proposals in Scotland we have tried to address these issues.
First, we advocate an electoral system that will avoid the dangers of entrenched one-party rule. Indeed, the move towards greater proportionality through the additional voting system will require support for policies to be argued and negotiated beyond a single party. Unashamedly, we want a move to more consensual politics.
Secondly, we want to improve the legislative process. Through a robust process of pre-legislative scrutiny we will require the executive in Scotland to justify its proposals ahead of legislation. In addition, the quality of legislation will be enhanced by the use of specialist subject committees which will develop their own expertise and understanding of policy areas.
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Thirdly, we are determined to make politics more accessible. As a party, we are determined to move quickly towards the objective of gender balance. In part, this will be facilitated by the different type of parliament, with very different working relationships, that we will establish.
In 1978–79 many of the now leading members of the party opposite, particularly in the other place, were strong supporters of devolution. At one time they even promised us a better Bill. (I believe that was the phrase then used.) Soon after 1979 all of them underwent a miraculous conversion. But for the Conservative Party in Scotland that conversion has proved to be, not on the road to Damascus, but on the road to oblivion. Today, speculation in Scotland is not about whether the party opposite will win 10, 20 or 30 seats but whether it will make it into single figures.
The Union has served us well and we want to strengthen and renew it. Today we face the dangers of alienation, exclusion and separatism. Decentralisation is the way to reinvigorate our democracy, enable the concerned citizen to contribute more actively to the political process and build a new union that glories in diversity and values variety. That is a challenge that we are prepared to accept but it is one that the party opposite does not even recognise.
4.44 p.m.
Lord Campbell of Croy: My Lords, I welcome the two measures in the gracious Speech proposed for Scotland, especially that relating to crofting as my home is near Inverness in the Highlands. I also applaud the Government's policies on constitutional development. I refer to changes and innovations by which Parliament's committees, in particular the Scottish Grand Committee, now meet in Scotland with United Kingdom Ministers and can take evidence there on current issues and prospective legislation directly from the public and organisations. The Scottish sector of Parliament is now not only very visible north of the Border but its work attracts much wider interest and is being reported in the media as never before. Steady progress has been made without running into the West Lothian question, risking the breakdown of a system that has been carefully evolved over many years or risking the eventual breakup of the United Kingdom. I welcome the Government's intention to continue that policy. I do so with a certain modesty, because all the proposals that I put forward in my articles published by the Scotsman in 1979 for reforms of the grand committee system have now been put into effect, together with others. Accordingly, it is incorrect to characterise the Conservative Party as determined only to retain the status quo.
In contrast, I point out that in the last period of Labour Government (1974–79) not a single change was achieved in extending devolution. After five years all that was left was aborted legislation. One Bill was withdrawn and another was scuttled as a result of a referendum. However, that government performed a service. Since then I have always pointed that out. They demonstrated how immensely difficult it is to construct a workable system for an assembly or a separate Scottish Parliament. I well remember the audible sighs

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of relief from members of the Labour Cabinet in 1979 when the result of the referendum released them from the task of trying to put into effect the Scotland Act 1978. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Richard, was also then in a position to notice the obvious relief of Ministers.
I congratulate the Government on resisting the temptation to embark on a plan for a Scottish assembly for short-term political reasons. The temptation arises because for several years a high percentage of those living in Scotland have in opinion polls reacted favourably to the vague concept of an assembly. When faced with a definite scheme they react very differently, having perceived the problems and effects. That happened in 1978 and 1979 when the Scotland Act received derisory support in a referendum and had to be repealed. Of course, opinion polls in Northern England have produced similarly high percentages of support for decentralisation. That is an aspiration common to both Scotland and northern England, although it is not high in the public's priorities where health, education, jobs, the environment and other subjects come first.
In supporting the sensible attitude of my noble friends on the Government Front Bench, I remind them of previous forays into constitutional change. In the equivalent debate of today on the Queen's Speech on 30th November, 20 years ago, I spoke in this House from the Opposition Front Bench immediately after the then Lord Chancellor, who opened that day's debate in the same way as has been done by my noble and learned friend today. On the previous day the Scotland and Wales Bill had been introduced. That sought to establish assemblies. I knew the late Lord Elwyn-Jones well. We were in both Houses at the same time and had gone abroad together on at least one parliamentary delegation. I always had the greatest respect and admiration for him, as I am sure did the Members of this House. He was given the unenviable task of explaining that Bill in his opening speech. In the comments that I make I have no personal criticism of him. In the course of his speech he said:
"I find it hard to think of any legislative scheme which has undergone such thorough public scrutiny",
and
… we have been at great pains to get these proposals right".— [Official Report, 30/11/76; col. 144.]
That Bill was suspended by the Government three months later, and withdrawn a few weeks later. It never reached this House.
In parenthesis I should add that that debate on 30th November 1976 (St. Andrew's Day) was significant for me, because the other controversial Bill which I criticised from the Opposition Front Bench (the Aircraft and Shipbuilding Industries Bill) was also withdrawn about four months later, for the reasons which I had adduced.
What killed the Scotland and Wales Bill? To recall its fate one must dip into parliamentary procedure. It is a rule in the Commons that Committee stages of constitutional Bills must be taken on the Floor of the House. The Government of the day decided that an
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enforced timetable Motion (a guillotine) was needed, but in February 1977 the Motion was defeated by a majority of 29, with Labour and Liberal Members voting against it or abstaining.
In the following parliamentary Session, the Government introduced the Scotland Bill. Again, a guillotine was introduced. This time the Motion was passed, reluctantly by several Labour MPs who expressed strong opposition to the Bill. The views of one of them are worth recording as he is now a leading member of the Shadow Cabinet (the right honourable Member for Livingston, Mr. Robin Cook). After devastating criticism of the Bill on 14th November 1977, he said that the Bill and the whole issue could be killed in the subsequent referendum and that is what he hoped would happen. His forecast was correct and his wish was later fulfilled.
One must ask what is his attitude now. Has he had a hand in insisting on a referendum again if Labour were again to be in a position to legislate, and insisting on a second question on tax powers, even more likely to scupper the Bill? Or has he changed his mind? In that speech he hoped that Scots would be given:
"the chance to bury this issue once and for all".
Is he hoping again for a similar result?
In the face of such well-informed opposition from many quarters, our present Government must be commended on their wiser and more prudent approach to those constitutional matters. In particular, they will avoid the difficulties experienced by the previous Labour Government when that guillotine was applied. Large and important clauses of that Bill were never discussed in the other place because the guillotine's chopper fell at certain times. It was only in this House that the whole Bill received full examination, with particular attention being given to the clauses which had not been scrutinised in the other place.
To illustrate other problems which the Queen's Speech wisely avoids, the Opposition Chief Whip in the other place (the right honourable Member for Garscadden, Mr. Dewar) was reported in the Scotsman of 1st October as having said at a conference fringe meeting:
"It is a fallacy that you cannot have a guillotine in the Lords".
It is my understanding that there never has been one in this House. That is something that no doubt my noble friend the Leader of the House will want to take note of. Of course this House can decide upon its own procedure, including the adoption of a course which is unprecedented or unusual. That proposal would be both. If a guillotine were to be imposed in this House, as well as in the other place, parts of a Bill might receive no parliamentary examination at all.
In return for Mr. Dewar's comments on our procedures in this House, I ask whether a Labour Government would try to change the Commons convention that the Committee stages of constitutional Bills are taken on the Floor. Mr. Dewar was reported as saying that he was prepared to do that. That is a serious matter for the other place to decide. How sensible again

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of the present Government not to include in the gracious Speech measures which would raise those irrelevant and unnecessary problems.
I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, will note, or recall because he was concerned with this subject in the late 1970s, that when the Second Reading of the Scotland Bill took place in this House the debate was on a reasoned amendment to decline to give it a Second Reading, moved by a former Labour Lord Advocate, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wilson of Langside. Nonetheless, the Bill did receive a Second Reading without a Division, in accordance with the custom of this House, and the later stages duly took place with the usual expedition observed by your Lordships.
Comments made by the Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland at the recent Labour Party conference, that the peers would probably stand in the way of a devolution measure, were inappropriate and out of place in view of the exemplary, complete and expeditious treatment of the 1978 Act in this House.
We should bear in mind a hypothetical situation: there could be a change of government after the general election in 1997. Although very hypothetical, it would mean that the points I have raised would have immediate application—noble Lords from England and Wales may not realise this—because the Labour Party has committed itself to legislation in the first Session to create a Scottish parliament. That would be next year. A Bill would be based apparently on proposals submitted by an unofficial body called the Scottish Constitutional Convention—proposals much criticised and not solving any of the problems that led to the demise of the 1978 Act, including the West Lothian question.
Labour Party head office in London has insisted that there be a referendum, pointing out that the general election result in Scotland would not provide a mandate as the electorate would be voting on a range of other subjects, some of which would be regarded as more important; for example, health and education, as I have already said. However, the London office has also insisted that there be two questions. One would be on whether to have the kind of parliament outlined. The second would be on whether it should have tax-varying powers. That insistence would lead to a curious situation. Ballot boxes would receive four varieties of voting papers. Some would say no to both questions; some yes to both questions; others yes and no to the first and second question; and yet others no and yes to the questions in the opposite way.
The Liberal Democrats have said that they would not accept a Scottish parliament unless it did have tax-varying powers. When the ballot papers were collected the four varieties would be most unlikely to provide a clear, decisive mandate for anything. There is a suspicion in Scotland that is what the Labour leadership is hoping. As in 1979, it could claim credit for making the effort to do what the public in Scotland appeared to want, but that it had not been endorsed in the referendum. In the words of Mr. Cook: this issue could be buried once and for all. Quantities of valuable parliamentary time would have been squandered, like
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last time, even if guillotines were applied in both Houses as apparently contemplated. In contrast, as the gracious Speech today promises, in this new Session, which is necessarily shorter than usual, the time will be occupied by worthwhile legislation to meet current needs and situations. There has been much rhetoric about the will of the Scottish people. That is difficult to identify or measure. A referendum covers only residents in Scotland who are on the latest registers, including non-Scots and excluding many Scots residing outside Scotland for various valid reasons.
I initiated the only parliamentary debate after the referendum in 1979—a post mortem in this House nine days after the referendum, on 12th March. Speakers from Scotland from all sides in this House raised many comments and electors' grievances. The Hansard records are well worth looking up before arrangements for a future referendum are formulated.
Proposals for creating an assembly and now a Scottish parliament have always raised problems of finance. If there are no tax-raising powers a new body would simply be spending money raised elsewhere. Even the smallest local government council has had to raise some of its finance.
However, the tax-varying powers suggested would raise very little of the total amount needed and would be levied only on basic rate income tax payers. The Governor of the Bank of Scotland, Sir Bruce Pattullo, has pointed out the difficulties of dealing with investment income from dividends and of identifying Scottish recipients. Why should the better off be relieved of payment of that tax if it is found impracticable to apply? That is one of the many problems raised. The proposed parliament, whether or not it could vary taxation, would institutionalise conflict between Edinburgh and Westminster.
This summer the Labour Party issued guarantees to deliver a Scottish parliament. How can it guarantee delivery when there is also to be a referendum and two questions which may not support the proposals? The Labour Party demonstrated complete non-delivery last time in 1978–79. One can assume only that the Labour Party is determined to propose this extra expensive layer of politicians as a move in its feud with the SNP. In practice, if such a scheme were ever embarked upon, the destabilising effects would help the SNP, which would regard it as a stepping stone to independence and disintegration of the Union, which is its objective. Let us hope that the proposals will remain no more than a populist gesture.
During the past 30 years, all the progress in decentralisation and extending administration and parliamentary devolution has been carried out carefully and in stages by Conservative governments. The Labour governments' schemes all came to nothing. The noble Lord, Lord Sewel, talked about Conservatives having been subject to a miraculous conversion in the late 1970s. But the Conservative Party seriously considered the possibilities of an assembly following the initiative of my right honourable friend Mr. Heath in the late 1960s. A committee chaired by Lord Home of the Hirsel suggested a limited extension of the Westminster

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Parliament to sit in Scotland. It would have had few functions but it ingeniously avoided the West Lothian question and other problems. It was then dismissed by the parties opposite as a toothless talking shop. In the meantime, the Kilbrandon Royal Commission was appointed by the Labour Prime Minister of the day. After four-and-a-half years it suggested that an assembly might be workable but at the cost of reducing the number of Scottish MPs at Westminster, a condition which many of us believed unacceptable. After that, as I have mentioned, the Labour Government's efforts and attempts from 1975 to 1979 demonstrated for all to see the dangers and difficulties of pursuing that course.
In many fields during the past 17 years the Labour Party has abandoned its previous policies; for example, its opposition to selling council houses, its policy on nationalisation and its discarding of Clause 4. But I noticed that at its conference the "Red Flag", the anthem, was nonetheless retained. So New Labour still stands for two of Old Labour's traditions: the "Red Flag" and defective, dud devolution schemes.
5.4 p.m.
The Earl of Halsbury: My Lords, I hope that I shall not be ruled out of order if I refer to a matter that is not contained in the Queen's Speech. During the Recess, through the courtesy of the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, I was in touch, at ministerial level, with the Home Office about pornography. My interest in the subject began when I took part in a Motion tabled by my late noble friend Lord Nugent of Guildford in 1980 and I have been banging away about the matter for 16 years. During the course of my conversations with representatives of the Home Office I said that if they did not include in the Queen's Speech mention of government action to be taken on the matter I should do something myself. I have spent the Recess drafting an amendment to the 1979 Act, which is almost completed. I have almost reached finality in my capacity as a draftsman and the amendment awaits the approval of a parliamentary draftsman, who will put the finishing touches to it as an amending Bill.
I have made it an amending Bill because a great deal of the 1979 Act deals with purely legalistic procedures; for example, fines, rights of search and so forth. However, it is shocking to note the amount of material which is in the possession of the police but in respect of which, as a result of the 1979 Act, they have no chance of obtaining a conviction.
I shall not commit the error of delivering a Second Reading speech on a Bill that has not yet received its First Reading. However, perhaps I may inform your Lordships that I have available in semi-final form a version of my Bill setting out what I believe the law on pornography ought to be. If any noble Lord wishes to examine it I shall be happy to oblige. With those words I shall resume my seat with a view to the Bill receiving a First Reading very soon and a Second Reading before Christmas.
5.6 p.m.
Lord Murray of Epping Forest: My Lords, I wish to return to the issue of crime, in particular juvenile crime which was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank. The noble Lord spoke of the spurious deceptive attractiveness of simple solutions to crime. The attractiveness of such responses to juvenile crime as tagging and curfews is that they are both spectacular and cheap.
Understandably, we all react emotionally to the issue of juvenile crime. We are all conscious of the cost to the victims of juvenile crime—among whom, incidentally, other young people are represented more than proportionately to their numbers—and the cost to the public purse, which amounts to approximately £1 billion a year. However, in reality there are no quick fix solutions or cheap solutions on offer. On the contrary, we shall probably have to spend more. At the very least, we must rigorously examine how we can use more effectively the existing resources which we devote from the public purse to juvenile crime, notably by switching from dealing with results to dealing with causes and to the prevention of crime. That is not merely a matter of putting more bobbies on the beat and more TV surveillance in city centres, desirable and important as they are. Prevention and avoidance go much deeper than that.
We do not have a complete picture of the extent of the crime committed by young people or, indeed, by adults. What we know suggests that in 1995 there were, in round figures, 150,000 known male offenders aged between 10 and 17 and 40,000 females. We also know that during the previous decade the overall offending rate for males had tended to fall while that of females had remained the same. But there had been a rise in crimes of violence, robbery and drugs offences which are often interconnected. We know that the peak age for offending is about 18 for males and about 15 for females and that after that offending tends to fall off. We also know that 60 per cent. of the convicted youths aged 16 and 17 had no employment.
Therefore, the picture is not one of an extraordinary increase in the rate of juvenile crime—indeed, there are some hints of a possible small decline—it is one of a persistent and a worrying level of offending. For most young offenders it is a transitional phenomenon which declines with advancing teenage years. But, for a minority, it becomes part of a way of life graduating from young offenders' institutions to recurrent spells in adult prisons. The noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, drew our attention to the exponential increase in the size of the prison population and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner, devastatingly exposed the consequences of this in terms of the increased recidivism of individual prisoners and in terms of the deleterious effects on society as a whole in the long run. Those apply a fortiori to the issue of youth imprisonment.
The evidence is that reconviction rates for young offenders within two years after release from custody are around 80 per cent.—about four chances out of five of being back in prison upon reconviction. That compares with a reconviction rate of some 50 per cent.

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for young people who have been committed to criminal justice projects in the community, at a mere fraction of the £25,000 a year cost to the community of incarcerating each young offender. While such rates of reconviction are still far too high, it clearly makes both penal and economic sense to use this alternative wherever possible to reduce recidivism and save money.
However, that is still dealing with the results rather than the causes of offending. Perhaps the best way of addressing causes is to ask what light the research of the Home Office throws on the sort of young people who end up in custody. Some characteristics stand out. The proportion of young blacks is more than double that of the general population, as anyone immediately sees who visits YOIs. The number who have persistently truanted from school is 44 per cent., compared with 8 per cent. of the general population. There are also those from disrupted and inadequate family backgrounds. All these deserve separate and extended examination which, obviously, I cannot give them today.
However, the most glaring common denominator for young offenders, on which I want to concentrate my remarks, is the fact that no less than 40 per cent. of male prisoners under the age of 21 had been in local authority care, compared with less than 4 per cent. of the same age population-10 times as many proportionately. There is clearly a strong correlation between a background in care and a range of other problems which have been or will be discussed in this debate. For example, 30 per cent. of young, single homeless people have been in care. Over half of the young people who leave care do so with no academic qualifications, compared with 6 per cent. of their peers. At least one in seven of young women leaving care is either pregnant or already a mother. It is estimated that the rate of unemployment among young people and young adults who have been in care is between three and five times higher than others in the same age group.
Therefore, it is no coincidence that the likelihood of ending up in custody is 10 times as high for young people leaving care as for young people coming from a normal family home. This is a dreadful story. The current system of state care for children and young people who cannot live with their parents is failing these youngsters.
NCH Action for Children, in which I happily declare an interest, is in its own way responding to this situation. Through its "leaving care" projects it is putting £2 million from its own limited voluntary resources—where its mouth is—to provide independence and training for youngsters and to try to persuade local authorities to accept that preparation for leaving care must start from the moment a child comes into care. That care and support must continue after leaving care. Leaving care programmes for youngsters that start when they are 15 or 16 are not good enough. Sometimes those youngsters end up on the streets or in custody.
However, such programmes will cost extra money or, at least, courage will be required to divert money from other less critical uses so as to give the most adversely affected of our young people—that is, those deprived of
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a normal family background—a better start in life and a chance of avoiding penal custody for the rest of their lives.
5.15 p.m.
Baroness Seccombe: My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in today's debate on the gracious Speech. I know that law and order and the effectiveness of our criminal justice system to uphold it are matters of great concern to many of your Lordships, and certainly to the broader public.
Upholding law and order and protecting the law-abiding is the first duty of government. The fact that it is the top priority for this Government is quite clearly reflected in their legislative programme for this Session, on which I should like to focus some attention.
Organised crime poses an increasingly complex and sophisticated threat to our communities and to our way of life—and at its root is drugs. It is big business on an international scale; and deadly business at that. If past generations feared external threats to our national security, we now, arguably, have to fear internal threats like drugs more.
Drugs undermine and eat away at the fabric of our families, our communities and, yes, our cohesion as a society, as a nation. The fact is that our young are threatened more by the poison peddled by drug dealers in nightclubs, in schools or on street corners up and down the country than they are from the missiles or tanks of another country. As a matter of urgency, we need to co-ordinate just as effective a national strategy against the drug menace and the menace of organised crime as we have done in the past to combat the external foes who have threatened us. The Government are rightly taking action to do this.
In the last Session the Government introduced the Security Service Act which allows the Security Service to play a supportive role in police and Customs and Excise operations against organised criminals. The Act will strengthen the arm of our law enforcers, as indeed will the Police Bill, which the Government will be putting before us in this Session. The Police Bill will establish a national crime squad better to co-ordinate and structure the fight against organised crime. I believe that it will not compromise our tradition of local policing. But it will increase the heat on the organised criminals who sow so much discord. I welcome that Bill.
A criminal justice system to work effectively must command the confidence of the public. When the public lose faith in the effectiveness of the police, the courts and the prisons to protect them, there is a very real danger of them taking the law into their own hands. The vigilante society then becomes a very real possibility. At the very core of the Government's crime Bill is the desire to strengthen public confidence in the criminal justice system's ability to protect them from dangerous and professional criminals—like repeat rapists or armed robbers, or house burglars and drug dealers.

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Many senior police officers have pointed to the effectiveness of prison both to deter criminals and to protect the public by taking them out of circulation. Pauline Clare, the Chief Constable of Lancashire, has said:
"There is no doubt that the fear of imprisonment is an extremely effective deterrent".
That was stated in a letter to the Home Office Minister, David Maclean, on 12th September 1995. My very real hope is that the proposed sentences for persistent burglars and drug dealers and the life sentences for repeat serious sexual and violent offenders will deter them. But if they do not, then at least the public will be protected by these hardened offenders being taken out of circulation for a long time.
Stalking is a heinous offence. It can destroy the lives of its victims, who end up living in a state of fearful anticipation of what the stalker might do next. At present, there is little that the police or the courts can do, until of course it is too late and the months or years of harassment have culminated in an attack or an assault. I applaud the Government for taking this problem seriously and for taking considered action and consulting widely. Their proposals will embody both criminal and civil remedies.
Two new criminal offences of harassment will be created, with a new civil injunction available through the civil courts. Anti-stalking campaigners must be delighted that there will not be a need to prove an intent to cause alarm or distress to the victim. The stalker will be guilty of stalking if he goes beyond what a reasonable person should realise are actions which cause the victim distress, anxiety, harassment or to fear violence. Stalkers who continue to stalk will rightly face tough penalties.
Although it is not included in the Government's current legislative programme, I should like to take this opportunity to welcome the Government's recently announced new initiatives to combat juvenile offending. As a magistrate I do not sit in the juvenile court, but I feel it is a disgrace that in many of our communities young tearaways reek havoc and disturb public order, making people's lives an absolute misery. We must try to stop it.
It is unacceptable that the criminal actions of juveniles should go unpunished. Punishing juvenile offenders not only teaches them the difference between right and wrong—a factor, sadly, too often lacking in their homes—but it can also be accompanied with action which helps them to break the cycle of offending. Youngsters who are a persistent nuisance to their communities should be deprived of their freedom to go on being such a nuisance. I am glad that the Government intend to do just that by backing up curfew orders with electronic tagging. This has the merits of keeping juvenile offenders out of custody, off the streets and, hopefully, out of trouble.
I also eagerly anticipate the Government's Green Paper on juvenile offenders which will set out how they aim to target those youngsters most at risk of stumbling
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into crime and nipping in the bud any bad behaviour quickly and early on. As I said earlier, it does no one any good if offending is not punished.
To make our streets and communities a safer place to live requires us to take action across the board to tackle crime in all its appearances. This means action against the organised crime of the professional drug dealer; action against the persistent burglar or the repeat rapist; and action against low-level young offenders. This Government are pro-active in fighting crime and I urge your Lordships to support their forthcoming legislative programme. Finally, I wish to say how much I welcome the Home Secretary's intention to institute an annual Philip Lawrence award for young people who make an outstanding contribution to their community. That is a positive step.
5.24 p.m.
The Earl of Mar and Kellie: My Lords, despite the description in some quarters of the gracious Speech as being thin—in part that is inevitable given the 20 or so weeks allowed for its scrutiny—I recognise that the Scottish element will be busy with up to seven Bills to scrutinise.
First, I turn to the Crime and Punishment (Scotland) Bill, and in particular to the proposal to abolish parole and replace it with an apparently simplified or more honest early release scheme. That rings some fundamental alarm bells. In order to believe that this early release scheme is better than the existing parole scheme I shall need to be persuaded that the loss of substantial periods of post-release supervision—and the associated conditional release that goes with it—will achieve the aim of criminal justice social work. I am firmly of the belief that rehabilitation is a cognitive process and is consciously entered into. It can be started in prison but it has to be completed in the community. Resettlement is the central task of criminal justice social work. The existing scheme of release, both on supervision and conditional release, seems well designed to contribute to resettlement and to the avoidance of future offending behaviour. I look forward to hearing how the proposed scheme will be an improvement on that.
I also wish to comment upon the simplistic assertion that release at half sentence is automatic. This half sentence release scheme which we currently have gives prison governors a considerable lever in maintaining order. The more loss of remission that can be awarded, so much greater is the incentive for most prisoners to restrain themselves and behave compliantly. With regard to the alteration of the calculation of liberation dates, I am glad that the alteration from automatic calculation from the start of remand is moving to the Scottish practice. In Scotland the sentencer, who is normally the sheriff, announces whether or not the sentence is backdated to the beginning of the remand period. Sometimes defence agents try to negotiate this in open court.
I now turn to the hybrid scheme proposed for mentally ill offenders. It will allow the detention of a mentally ill offender in a secure psychiatric unit for

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treatment and for his subsequent transfer to prison after he is declared mentally fit. I have two objections to that. First, a person diagnosed with a mental illness rarely makes a complete transition to robust mental health. Secondly, I see injustice in transferring someone to prison for an offence committed while that person was mentally ill. The highly pressured environment of a prison is hardly a suitable environment for a person recently recovered from a mental illness. Last year's Mental Health (Patients in the Community) Act supplies a more satisfactory solution to that situation.
While on the subject of the detention of mentally ill offenders, I noticed a report in yesterday's Guardian where a proven stalker was informed that he would have to be sent to a maximum security hospital, in excess of his needs, as there was no place available to him in a secure community mental health unit. Mental health needs to be repaired and restored in the environment in which the person will live and not in an isolated institution.
I am pleased to see the proposals for a register of child sex offenders and the opening of criminal records for personnel checks. I wish to link that to the accreditation of youth and children's workers, as proposed in Chapter 11 of Lord Cullen's report. If that accreditation scheme is to be effective in preventing unsuitable people from having contact with the vulnerable, it will need to be based on individual registration. I am concerned about the proposal for group registration. I believe that individual accreditation is the only method of keeping tabs on and excluding determined and freelance abusers. One of the features of the late Thomas Hamilton's youth work was that no one had the authority to stop him. No one body could receive complaints and produce a co-ordinated response to those complaints. I also note that he had appointed himself as chairman of his group.
I see that electronic tagging is back on the agenda. I had hoped that this was being switched off on the grounds that it has caused so much domestic violence—domestic violence caused by frustration in complying with the electronic tagging order.
Moving away from the criminal justice field to the north and west of Scotland, I am pleased with the proposal to transfer 1,400 crofts to local crofting trusts. The times have changed since the 1920s when the then Lord Leverhulme tried to give the ownership of the land for free to his crofting tenants in the Isles of Lewis and Harris. They refused to accept it at that time. Times have moved on and crofting trusts are already being established. For the crofter, the proposal retains him or her as a tenant but gives him or her the opportunity to be a member of a trust and so participate in the control of his own activity. Crofting land will be more locally controlled and should be done more accurately.
I understand that the national heritage legislation will be amended to allow the National Heritage Memorial Fund to make grants to private individuals. This may be justifiable if it can be shown that the building, structure or landscape is a worthy part of the national heritage. However, I shall be interested in the degree of public
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access that must accompany this grant aid. The ethos will need to be distinctly communitarian, with a significant willingness to share.
Finally, and predictably, I, too, wish to turn to the governance of Scotland. I am impressed by the way that the Government have identified themselves with the popular mood in Scotland over the decommissioning of all handguns. I hope that this new responsiveness will continue. Last year I complained about there being no commitment to the better governance of Scotland. This year I still look for it. The noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Croy, raised the issue of the Scottish Grand Committee going around Scotland. There is no doubt that it goes around Scotland, but unfortunately it demonstrates a complete lack of democracy. The Scottish question has, for me, two foundations. The first is the imposition of Right-wing policies in Scotland by a minority administration. The route out of that is to implement the most Left-wing policies that the governing party can handle, and in so doing meet the expectations of the Scottish electorate. The second is the popular desire to renegotiate the Union treaty with the purpose of resuming autonomy in domestic affairs.
I believe that the majority of Scots want to stay in the British Union but on more democratic terms. However, stubborn failure to recognise that will ultimately lead to Scotland being discussed on the foreign affairs day.
5.34 p.m.
Lord Braine of Wheatley: My Lords, of all the social issues with which our society and your Lordships' House grapples, surely none is so contentious and for many so difficult to understand as the issue of abortion. It is an issue on which thoughtful people of good will, who have carefully pondered and considered its various aspects, passionately disagree, each side believing fervently that it is protecting the most fundamental of human rights.
I am taking the opportunity, therefore, in this fascinating debate, to seek to confront your Lordships with the uncomfortable facts about what is called "partial birth" abortion. While every abortion sadly takes a human life, this particular method takes that life in the last weeks of pregnancy as the baby, while still in the birth canal, emerges from its mother's womb.
It is, as noble Lords will know, a procedure performed from around 20 weeks to full term, and your Lordships may already be aware that since 1990 our law in this country has permitted abortion up to birth on certain grounds. It might be helpful to your Lordships if I state briefly, but I hope precisely, what happens during a partial birth abortion. We are law-makers here and it is essential that on all matters affecting the law of our land we should speak plainly, and I know that the House will understand.
First, guided by ultrasound, the abortionist grasps the live baby's legs with forceps. Secondly, the baby's legs are pulled out into the birth canal. Thirdly, the abortionist delivers the baby's entire body, except for the head. Fourthly, the abortionist inserts scissors into the baby's skull. I repeat that: the abortionist inserts scissors into the baby's skull. The scissors are then

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opened to enlarge the hole. Finally, the scissors are removed and a suction instrument is inserted. The child's brains are sucked out causing the skull to collapse so that the delivery of the child can be completed.
This is an horrific procedure that should never, ever be allowed in this country, or indeed anywhere else.
According to the Government's responses to parliamentary Questions that I have tabled over the years, there are no known cases of this method being used in this country. At the same time, these responses provide no guarantee whatsoever that the method is definitely not used in some private clinics. Indeed, I am advised that there is nothing in our law that would prevent an abortionist from using it. In short, provided that the terms of the Abortion Act 1967 are complied with, there is nothing to stop a doctor from using this horrific method.
Such procedures, if they ever occurred here, would shock the conscience of the nation. Indeed, when this procedure was discussed in the United States Congress, many congressmen who usually vote with the so-called pro-choice lobby were so disgusted that they voted to override President Clinton's shameful veto of legislation to outlaw it. I should like to take this opportunity of paying a warm tribute to Congressman Charles Canady and Miss Ken D. Harrison, assistant counsel to the Judiciary Sub-committee on the Constitution in the United States, for their outstanding courage and leadership in drawing world-wide attention to this particularly barbaric method of abortion.
Finally, I should like to share with your Lordships the experience of a Mrs. Brenda Pratt Shafer. During a hearing last year, Mrs. Shafer described this shameful procedure to the United States Senate Judiciary Committee. I shall quote from her testimony. As we in Britain are undoubtedly faced with this issue here and now, something has to be done about it in this country. It is as well that we should know what has been said on the subject elsewhere in a civilised country. Mrs. Shafer said:
"I am a registered nurse, licensed in the State of Ohio, with 13 years of experience. In 1993, I was employed by Kimberly Quality Care, a nursing agency in Dayton, Ohio. In September 1993, Kimberly Quality Care asked me to accept an assignment at the Women's Medical Centre, which is operated by Dr. Martin Haskell. I readily accepted this assignment because I was at that time very pro-choice. I had even told my teenage daughters that if any one of them ever got pregnant at a young age, I would make them have an abortion. They disagreed with me on this issue, and one of them even wrote an essay for a high school class that mentioned how we disagreed on this issue. So, because of the strong pro-choice view that I held at that time, I thought this assignment would be no problem for me".
I quote this case because it is relevant to present experience in our own country, I am not talking about something peculiar to the United States, but a matter of grave concern to many people here. Mrs. Shafer went on to say:
"But I was wrong. I stood at the doctor's side as he performed the partial-birth abortion procedure—and what I saw is branded on my mind forever. I worked as an assistant nurse at Dr. Haskell's
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clinic for 3 days—September 28, 29 and 30 1993 … On the third day, Dr. Haskell asked me to observe as he performed several of these procedures that are the subject of this hearing. Although I was in the clinic on the assignment of the agency, Dr. Haskell was interested in hiring me full time, and I was being oriented in the entire range of procedures provided by that faculty. I was present for three of these partial-birth procedures. It is the first one that I will describe to you in detail.
The mother was six months pregnant, 26 and a half weeks … on the third day, she came in to have the partial-birth abortion procedure. Dr. Haskell brought the ultrasound in and hooked it up so that he could see the baby. On the ultrasound screen. I could see the heart beat. As Dr. Haskell watched the baby on the ultrasound screen, the baby's heartbeat was clearly visible on the ultrasound screen. Dr. Haskell went in with forceps, grabbed the baby's legs and pulled them down into the birth canal. Then he delivered the baby's body and the arms—everything but the head. The doctor kept the head right inside the uterus".
I am sorry to speak about what must be for many people a grave and sad matter, but this is life in this age for some and death to others. Mrs. Shafer went on to say:
"The baby's little fingers were clasping and unclasping, and his little feet were kicking. Then the doctor stuck the scissors in the back of his head and the baby's arms jerked out, like a startled reaction, like a flinch, like a baby does when he thinks he is going to fall. The doctor opened up the scissors, stuck a high-powered suction tube into the opening and sucked the baby's brains out. Now the baby went completely limp. I was really completely unprepared for what I was seeing …
Next, Dr. Haskell delivered the baby's head. He cut the umbilical cord and delivered the placenta. He threw the baby into a pan, along with the placenta and the instruments he had just used".
Mrs. Shafer then said:
"I have been a nurse for a long time, and I have seen a lot of death—people maimed in auto-accidents, gun-shot wounds, you name it. But in all my professional years, I have never witnessed anything like that.
I was present in the room during two more such procedures that day, but I was really in shock. I tried to pretend I was somewhere else, to not think about what was happening. I just couldn't wait to get out of there. After I left that day, I never went back.
I was very much affected by what I saw. For a long time—and sometimes still—I had nightmares about what I saw".
What this lady has described so vividly should never ever be allowed to happen in this country. I hope and trust that it never will, but this is an uncertain world and the only way we can be sure that a barbarism of this kind will never be permitted here is for the Minister to give us a categoric assurance on that score. This is one of the gravest subjects with which Parliament and, for that matter, our whole community, our whole nation, can ever be concerned. I hope that we shall receive a clear answer to the questions I have asked.
5.44 p.m.
Lord Balfour of Inchrye: My Lords, I speak rarely in your Lordships' House. That is for two reasons: increasing aural disability makes it difficult to participate in its deliberations, while the subject that interests me most—the arts and their role in society today—does not often feature in its debates.
Nonetheless, I am bound to say that I think that in recent times the arts have not fared at all badly. In January 1994 the noble Lord, Lord Donoughue, instigated a debate, memorable for the profound speech of my noble friend Lord Menuhin. In April last year, my noble friend Lord Palmer initiated a debate on arts

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and heritage, and last June the noble Earl, Lord Gowrie—to whom much is owed for the artistic well-being of this country—drew our attention to the social and economic benefits of the work being undertaken by the distributing bodies of the National Lottery.
Each of these debates was primarily concerned with the question of money for the arts—it seems as if nowadays the words "arts" and "funding" are wholly inseparable—so I do not intend to discuss money at all, beyond briefly making a couple of points pertaining to the lottery.
First, we must guard against any government envisaging the lottery as an excuse for backing out of their commitment to the arts. It cannot be, nor should it be, viewed as a substitute for the basic infrastructure on which the arts rest. Secondly, I hope that the rules for distributing money to the artistic organisations can be loosened somewhat. Currently, cash may be allocated for capital projects—building, restoring and renovating—not for the artistic activities which take place therein. What is the point of theatre companies, orchestras and so forth going bankrupt within these fine palaces of culture?
But I believe that it is not so much a shortage of funds which may imperil the artistic life of our country as two other factors which endanger not just the appreciation of what Matthew Arnold termed,
"the best that has been known and thought":
but, the social scene in general, values which we in the western world have long cherished and standards of conduct in everyday life.
In terms of artistic achievement Britain has much to be proud of. Fifty years ago, on 29th September 1946, one of the great cultural enterprises of our time, the Third Programme, was born. I have noted that the author of the book celebrating this half century has called it The Envy of the World. I think he is justified in doing so because the Third Programme has been imitated by radio stations throughout the world. In those days there was never any question of accessibility being raised, although the programme had its detractors, notably the tabloid press. I know that it is not the function of these publications to propagate any form of culture, but why must they always find it necessary to denigrate it and be content merely to go on wallowing in the trough of trivia? Clearly, excellence and quality have a price to pay—that of popularity.
Compared with 50 years ago, this is not an age of reflection. Life has become faster and noisier, instant gratification is sought in most things, while the attention span of readers and listeners alike is much shorter. Above all, it is the advent of television which has done most to change our habits: we listen less and watch more. I certainly do not propose to indulge in an orgy of TV-bashing. Television is a marvellous medium which has greatly enriched people's lives by teaching them new subjects of interest, showing them places on earth which they could never dream of visiting and generally widening their horizons. The quality of
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television in Britain is unsurpassed, but at the same time I believe that a former newscaster, Miss Angela Rippon, is correct when she says:
"in the breathless pursuit of the young viewer, standards of TV have fallen considerably of late and increasingly pander to the lowest common denominator".
I have found this opinion shared by individuals from all walks of life.
I have read that in this multichannel, multimedia age, we may apparently be given a choice of as many as 100 television channels—a statistic which I confess fills me with gloom when one considers that there is barely sufficient creative talent to provide for the channels that we already have. Nor am I impressed by the pronouncements which we have so far heard from the programme controller of Channel 5 that 40 per cent. of its product will consist of repeats and bought-in foreign shows which will have no more cultural impact than when shown elsewhere. Once again, a channel is to "go for youth", which is merely shorthand for bringing it down-market. But what appalled me most were the reported words of the controller's address at the Edinburgh Television Festival last summer:
"The 40's are only going to get older and they'll take their values with them".
It looks as though "drop dead at 40" will be the motto of Channel 5! What a waste of time, money and resources it promises to be, and what an opportunity has been lost to earmark one channel for the transmission of principally quality programmes. I would also suggest that the over-40s are likely to have more time for viewing, since many of them will have quit what I term the "rodent relay-race" to lead more satisfying lives elsewhere. That has certainly been the experience of numerous friends of mine.
We are, in fact, to be subjected to a further dose of so-called popular culture. In that respect I was amused to read not long ago that, according to a survey of the General Synod, the bishops have committed a serious crime: they are out of touch with popular culture. Not one bishop reads a tabloid newspaper or listens to Radio 1; only one has a satellite dish; only one has video games, while two do not even own a television set.
"Britain's top Churchmen on a different planet",
blared forth the Sun. It reminds me of Stalin's infamous cultural henchman, Zhdanov, who, in 1948, accused many of the Soviet Union's leading writers and composers of "serious anti-democratic tendencies". I am prepared to believe that right reverend Prelates are remote from popular culture, but I do not see why they should necessarily suffer for it. As a Sunday columnist put it, for the most part it consists of,
"inescapable noise, an obsession with sex, screaming pop stations, hypomanic television advertising, radio phone-ins, sex chat shows and helplines, zam-splat television cartoons, zam-splat video games, zam-splat amusement arcades, nasty videos, tabloid newspapers whose only news is about sex or television, and finally the hell of muzak everywhere".
Of course there is no reason why the populace should not pursue these things if it wants to, but equally there is no reason why right reverend Prelates should have to.

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I contend that the cheapening and coarsening of popular culture is, in turn, largely responsible for the spawning of the so-called "yob culture" which now afflicts the lives of so many. Huge chunks of peak television time are taken up by raw and raunchy plays, soap operas and unrestrained comedy shows which stress sex in its most repellent forms, programmes which portray violence, rudeness, selfishness, cruelty, scruffiness in appearance and sheer bad manners. Yet those who shape and profit from all that are quick to deny any responsibility. They and their fashionable defenders sneer at those who even suggest that there may he a connection between what assaults our senses with growing intensity every day on film and television and what is happening on our streets and—in view of recent tragedies—within the precincts of our schools. Beliefs like responsibility, decency, manners and the difference between good and evil are too often dismissed as reactionary or fanciful. "Violence on TV should not be toned down because it should reflect society", and, "tacky shows are what the public wants: those who choose to ignore their high audience rates are elitists", are just two of the statements that I have read as coming from the lips of TV controllers recently. But does not the great success of the recent dramatisation of Pride and Prejudice and the request for more of the same suggest that those opinions may possibly be out of date? However, so long as the TV and newspaper moguls, advertising tycoons and the rest of their ilk make their fortunes, nothing else matters. Ultimately we may end up, if we are not careful, with the situation in America, where the ratings dictate everything, so that any programme requiring even the slightest degree of intelligence or concentration is immediately thrown out. How right Mr. David Blunkett was when, at a teachers' conference in April this year, he said that Britain is in danger of importing the values of the "dumb-dumb" society wherein being a dummy is something you are praised for. He added,
"Perhaps the big challenge is to be able to use the technology and the access to information in a way that is beneficial and that does not end up with kids playing meaningless games''.
A few moments ago I praised the BBC; now, I must castigate the corporation for more and more embracing the other threat to our artistic and cultural heritage—a threat which also encroaches more and more on our daily lives. I refer to the wholly insidious doctrine of political correctness. It is easy to pinpoint the ludicrous lingo that this has given rise to—I have only just learnt that I and many other noble Lords are "follicularly challenged", that is, bald—racism, sexism, ageism, fatism, entryism, the constant emphasis on class and gender, chairperson, sportsperson, spokesperson, and so forth. When I studied Hansard last summer I saw that it has even penetrated your Lordships' House and was glad to read that the perpetrator was aptly mocked by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham. However, it is not really funny. Underneath this absurd language lie deeper concepts which are gradually infiltrating our existence. I have read of how a council cleansing department was in trouble for alerting the public with a safety warning of "Men Working", because two student teachers took exception to the sign as "sexist" even
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though no women were employed on drain and rubbish clearing operations; how a commemorative print of one of the British Army's finest regiments was produced and hangs in many towns throughout the county but not in one town, where the mayoress decided it was inappropriate; how a councillor, who opposed a donation to a Moslem group because "the United Kingdom is a Christian country" had been threatened with prosecution by the Commission for Racial Equality; how the hymn "Jerusalem" was banned from a memorial service because of worries that the phrase "dark satanic mills" might denigrate inner cities; and, amazingly, how the cross was dropped from a national church's advertising campaign for Easter on the grounds that it carried "too much cultural baggage".
Much of this nonsense emanates from the United States, in particular from the universities there. Thousands of students are being taught that the roots of Western civilisation lie in Africa. "Afrocentric" teachers maintain that white scholars have covered up the debt Europe owed Africa for racist reasons. So as to restore black pride, students are told that Greece was an Egyptian colony, that Greek philosophy merely borrowed African wisdom and the famous figures of the ancient world, such as Socrates and Cleopatra, were black. A lady professor who dared to query the view that Shakespeare and Beethoven might have been coloured was in serious trouble with the university authorities. Apropos poor old Beethoven, I am sure that those noble Lords with an ear for music would be as surprised as I was to be asked whether, when listening to the first movement of the Ninth Symphony, they heard "dammed-up energy which finally explodes in the throttling, murderous rage of a rapist, incapable of obtaining release". Well, I certainly was surprised, but should not be according to the author of a book called Feminine Endings: Music, Gender and Sexuality.
But do not let us laugh too soon at all this rubbish on this side of the Atlantic. More and more we are witnessing the current tide of cultural relativism, another offshoot of political correctness, which decrees that there is no difference in value between, say, Schubert and Blur, Milton and Mills & Boon, or between Vermeer's "View of Delft" and a dead sheep at the Tate. All are cultural products to be understood not in terms of their intrinsic value but in relation to their structures and circumstances—including, inevitably, the gender, race and social class of the artist—within which they were produced.
There is no rectitude whatsoever about political correctness. It represents a deliberate distortion or falsification of facts to suit a political purpose and is every bit as odious as the efforts of the Communist and Nazi regimes to do likewise. I feel we must do all in our power to resist this poisonous and pernicious doctrine.
I did not expect the gracious Speech to address the issues that I have raised; nor indeed has it done so. However, I am glad that recent ministerial pronouncements aim to combat some of the effects of "yob culture". I noted, too, that a few weeks ago the Prime Minister said that he plans an arts revolution in schools, fearing that the cultural horizons of children are being limited by computer games and television shows,

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and that he wants to spark a classroom renaissance by giving the arts a greater role in the curriculum and linking with outside organisations. Furthermore I am pleased to have read some words of the right honourable gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, who is quoted as saying,
"For too long in Britain the arts have been seen as peripheral, on the edges of our lives. We have been complacent about the excellence of our artists and art organisations, seeing them as part of our national life which required little thought or attention from politicians or government".
Those are heartening words and I trust that whichever right honourable gentleman is entrusted with the formation of the government next year will do his utmost to fulfil those promises. However, I remain somewhat cynical about this because I know that it is said that there are no votes to be gained by espousing the cause of the arts, and furthermore I think that too many politicians today are usually members of yet a third party, the Philistines.
I should like to play my part too in seeing that the next government pursues a policy of artistic enlightenment but I regret that I may not be in a position to do so. There is a shadow overhanging your Lordships' House: the cry of "reform" is in the air. I agree totally with the opinion expressed last July by my noble friend Lord St. John of Bletso that, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", but that there should be some reform of this House. But I deplore the suggestion that this House ought to be a replica of the other place. I believe that such a course would produce conflict, the sharpening of political knives and a consequent lowering of standards of debate and decorum. Do we really want a duplicate of Prime Minister's Question Time, with the front-benchers snarling at each other across the Dispatch Boxes and the trading of insults across the Floor of the House?
I am also worried that there will be scant opportunity in a reformed House to have debates of the kind that I mentioned at the beginning of my speech. I noted that at the conclusion of the debate on society's moral and spiritual well-being in July which he initiated, the most reverend Primate remarked:
"I also found myself musing that this is an extraordinary assembly in many respects. What other parliament throughout the world would devote a whole day to moral and spiritual matters in the life of the nation? Perhaps it says something about the value of an assembly and Chamber like this that it is able to be a witness and a sign of what a democratic society stands for".—(Official Report, 5/7/96; col. 1776).
I agree wholeheartedly with that but consider that the chances of such a debate occurring in a reformed House of the kind currently envisaged would be on a par with the General Assembly of the United Nations discussing, say, painting or literature.
I am also concerned by the possibility that there may be a dearth of spokesmen on behalf of the arts in a reformed House. In that respect I was interested to read that during the course of his speech last July on the constitution a very kind, humane and much respected noble Lord on the Government Benches, whom I do not see in the Chamber tonight, spoke of the variety of qualifications held by noble Lords, instancing Peers of
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the Armed Forces, the public service, commerce, industry, the trade unions, broadcasting, the academic world, landowners, farmers, explorers and others.
I noticed the omission of the arts from that list. It set me wondering whether it was intentional or accidental, since it is often thought—unfairly, I feel—that leading figures in that sphere, particularly creative artists, may be considered somewhat unreliable, their erotic behaviour in private possibly leading to erratic behaviour in public. That is a popular misconception, of course, the lives of artists being no more admirable or reprehensible than those of other sections of the community. I have no doubt that the finest and foremost practitioners in the field of the arts would respect the courtesies and conventions of your Lordships' House. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Rogers of Riverside, whom we shall soon welcome, will have much to add to our debates.
I believe that on the issues of today this House is very much in line with informed opinion in the country. Moreover, I do not believe that there is a great demand from the electorate for reform to be considered a high priority. I have noticed that those who clamour the loudest for reform are often mere political activists, eager to make a cheap political point. Like most people in this country, they have little idea of the function or working of your Lordships' House. Furthermore, it is apparent that many of those fervent advocates of reform would not be content with such a step. They advocate the abolition of the House, the monarchy, the judiciary and the police and the setting up of workers' militias. In other words, it seems like a sop to the Socialist Workers' Party.
I trust that my words this evening have not been entirely valueless. But I fear that, as one of the threatened species, they may be valedictory.
6.3 p.m.
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: My Lords, participating in the debate in your Lordships' House today, I want to draw on my experience as chairman of the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board and, above all perhaps, on the knowledge gained when I chaired the review of the parole system set up by the present Government, reporting in 1988, whose recommendations on early release are the basis of present sentencing in this country. Finally, I want to say a few words in my capacity as a recorder in the courts and maybe the only person to speak today in this House who has the responsibility of sentencing individuals at the end of trials or pleas.
Like my noble friend Lady Seccombe, I welcome the emphasis in the gracious Speech placed by the Government on the need to fight against international crime and drug dealing and the requirement to deal with firmness and clarity with persistent offenders. Perhaps, from the vantage point of the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board, sadly we see reflected the volume of violence in society today. The situation now is that we receive applications running at the rate of some 6,500 a month; that is 75,000 to 80,000 applications a year from people who claim to be the victims of

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violence in this country. It is a figure that has grown steadily over the years since the scheme was set up in 1964. It is a figure which in part but not in whole reflects the growing nature of violence in our society.
Of course, part of that growth in the number of applications is even more a reflection of the commendable efforts by the present Government to draw the attention of the board to the victims. It is equally in part a reflection of the disturbing and growing amount of sexual abuse which is coming to the fore in cases in this country. But one must inevitably accept that it is also in part a reflection of the level of violence, much of it aggressive, mindless violence: the punch with a fist, the kicking with a boot, the striking with a knife and the slashing with a razor, often inflamed by alcohol, invariably mindless and, sadly, among the young sometimes apparently done for no other reason but kicks.
Therefore, I welcome indeed the talk which is around today about the need for a crusade against violence in our society. We have to carry on the relentless war against the drug dealer. We have to emphasise particularly to the young the need for respect for the dignity of others. We have to recognise that there is a connection between the violence that we see on our screens, on videos and in pornography and the violence that takes place on the streets, if for no other reason but that the emphasis of that violence tends in itself to innure individuals. It dulls their sensitivity to violence and makes violence come more readily to them.
I also accept that part of that battle against violence is a need for society to have a tough attitude towards the perpetrators of crime. As I said, I welcome the emphasis in the gracious Speech. I share entirely the views of my noble friend Lady Seccombe when she said that offences of violence should be dealt with seriously and it is necessary to recognise the trouble caused by the persistent offender and persistent housebreaker. In fact, I believe that there is a mood of agreement on these matters in this House. Therefore, I say to my honourable friend the Minister that I fear that the proposals to deal with these matters, which I understand will be put forward by the Government in their Bill tomorrow, will be highly controversial. Like my noble friend Lord Windlesham, I believe that they are wrong in principle and will not achieve the ends at which they aim. I believe that they will lead to a vast increase in the prison population and in many ways prove to be unworkable. It is sad, because those of us who genuinely hold those views, share equally with others in society the aims which are trying to be achieved.
I do not believe that sentencing should in any way attempt to become a matter of party political debate. Sentencing of offenders is in a way part of the background and the bedrock of the fabric of society. It is surely something on which we must have agreement in this House. I assure your Lordships that I shall not attempt to make a Second Reading speech on a Bill that has not yet been published. I merely want to say without repeating myself that I share all the concerns expressed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner, in his speech about the danger of minimal sentencing.
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I ask my noble friend the Minister who is to reply why I, sitting as a recorder in a court in this country, having heard the whole of the facts and seen the individual who is to be sentenced, should be required to pass a sentence I genuinely believe to be unjust because it is longer than the sentence I believe to be necessary. If my view of justice is unduly lenient, that can be put right. We now have the power in this country to appeal to the Court of Appeal against unduly lenient sentences. That does not apply to domestic burglary, but it should. It is right to invite the Court of Appeal to set firm standards. However, I suggest that there is a distinction between trying to do away with undue leniency in the courts and producing the situation which minimum sentences are bound to do when, from time to time, a judge will find himself having to impose a sentence which he believes to be unjust.
If we are to go down the road towards mandatory minimum sentences, then I hope the Bill will include an exception wide enough to provide for a case where otherwise justice would fail to be done. It must be wider than that originally proposed in the White Paper. In relation to the proposals for life sentences for second offenders, the Government have a strong case when talking of rape. But do they wish to cast the net as wide as they do when talking of offences of wounding and of causing grievous bodily harm?
The White Paper, while calling for "real time" sentencing, goes on to say that it is not intended that the proposals for abolition of parole and early release should lead to an extension of the prison population; that it is not intended that the time people spend in prison should be greater than they are spending at the moment. There are two ways in which that procedure can go. Either that aim will not be achieved and the increase in the prison population will not be the 10,000 predicted, but the 20,000 or 30,000 that will come about; or the aim will be achieved in which case the only effect will be not that the individual will spend longer in prison, but that he will spend less time under supervision in society when he leaves prison. The present threat hanging over an offender that if he commits a further offence during the full period of the sentence passed he will have to serve the full term of that sentence along with the sentence for the further offence, will be removed. Far from offering the public more protection, in practice moving away from early release to a system of real time sentencing will diminish the protection of the public. Can my noble friend tell us how the reduction of one-third and one-half in sentencing is to be achieved? What guidance will there be in the law to achieve it? We looked at the whole of this issue in 1988 and believed that it was unachievable in today's climate.
Finally, the White Paper allows for a period of reflection and for a period in which people's comments could be considered. I felt that the probability was and that the indication had been given that those comments would be published. I spoke to the Minister, with her courtesy, last night. It was explained to me that the number of responses would be published, but not their content. The Library of the House confirmed that the responses have not been published. If we are to have the spirit of debate on sentencing matters that I believe we

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should have, where we achieve a consensus across parties in aiming for a system of sentencing that succeeds, it is important that we should be aware of the views of the judiciary, the Parole Board and others to help in those debates.
6.15 p.m.
The Earl of Longford: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Carlisle, speaks with much authority in this House and elsewhere. However, I must not spend my limited time saying how much I support him, the noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner.
I should like to say something about the various moral crusades that are sweeping the country—I am sure for our benefit. I supported the Archbishop of Canterbury in the summer. Since then Mr. Blair has aroused great interest, as has the widow of the murdered headmaster, and now the Catholic bishops. But I must leave those matters for another occasion. I shall speak rather about the education I have received in recent months on the penal philosophy of the party that has ruled us for the past 17 years.
We had a debate in the summer in which the noble Lords, Lord Carlisle and Lord Windlesham, took part, initiated by the former Lord Chief Justice. All and sundry attacked the government policy which I stigmatise as "Howardism" for want of a better word. Five former Conservative Home Office Ministers, including a former Home Secretary, attacked that policy. That was the beginning of my education on up-to-date Conservative penal thinking. Then came the book of the noble Lord, Lord Windlesham. I hope noble Lords have seen it; I shall give it a free puff. I shall not say how much it cost, otherwise your Lordships may be put off. However, it is worth every penny. Responses to Crime is a book to end all books. I do not know what criminologists in the future will do; it contains everything. It is up to date and has more knowledge in it than most criminologists are likely to possess.
The debate seemed enlightening and we understood that any serious-minded Conservative would be opposed to the policies of Mr. Howard. I then ventured to make my way, with a card hanging round my neck explaining that I was a reporter from the Catholic Herald, to the Conservative Conference at Bournemouth. I encountered the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, who, I was told afterwards, prevented me from being lynched. I am grateful to her for my preservation.
I listened to the debate. It had a totally different atmosphere. I am aware that high-level and sophisticated debates in this House are very different to the discussions at party conferences. I attended a Labour Party Conference in 1960 when Hugh Gaitskell was defeated and said that he would fight, fight and fight again. More due to the efforts of the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, than anybody else, but with other assistance, he set that right a year later. It is possible, but perhaps over-sanguine, to hope that a year from now the Conservative Party, no doubt in Opposition, will see the error of its ways. It may be thought that that is not
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likely, but why not? We have had all the great and good in the Conservative Party in this House denouncing Howardism for some time.
I listened to the debate. We know that party conferences have become rather stage-managed, and that one surely more than most. Ten speakers—no doubt carefully selected—rose to support Mr. Howard. Their message may be summed up in what was said by the first speaker in what was a powerful speech. He said, "I speak for millions and millions of ordinary people". That is the whole case for Howardism; that millions and millions of people are behind him. That was the only case in favour of the views expressed.
Mr. Howard rose and spoke very well. I dare not say this to anybody else here, but the Minister spoke slowly. As I was one of the fastest speakers in the House until supplanted by Lord Goodman and later by someone even closer to home, I felt that some of us had a lot to learn from his delivery—and we must give him credit for something! At any rate, he spoke well and moderately.
I agreed with him on one or two points. I agreed with him on stalking. I am glad that his intentions are to be carried into law in one way or other, after some rather peculiar happenings. I agreed with what he said about stalking. He also said something that does not appear to be going into law, but perhaps it will. He felt strongly, as we all must, that witnesses in rape cases are subjected to an appalling ordeal—almost a second rape—and he indicated that something would be done about that. He also gave us to understand that he would do everything in his power to diminish the curse of drugs, which is undoubtedly the most damaging feature of our national life today. I wish him luck with that, but we all know that it will be extremely difficult for him or for anyone else to do anything about it.
But I found him very unconvincing on other matters. He completely failed to explain away how the huge increase in the prison population will be coped with. I understand that over the next three years the number of prison staff will fall. I gather that the prison population was around 40,000 shortly before Mr. Howard came to office. That figure is now 57,000 and at a time when plans are afoot to reduce the number of prison staff. That is extraordinary madness.
On the subject of the police, a year ago we were told that the number of police would be increased by 5,000. However, in the last recorded year the number of police fell. So let us not assume that the Government are doing anything spectacular about the police or the prison staff.
On the subject of victims, the noble Lord, Lord Carlisle, is a special expert. I am happy to think that 30 or so years ago I had the first debate in this House on victims. I heard Mr. Howard say that victims were the number one priority of the Government. But what did they do about it? They produced a plan that was so inadequate that it was judged unlawful by the judges. It was rather a mockery of a number one priority.
However, when all is said and done, it was in the end a fairly moderate restatement of "Howardism"—the message with which we are all familiar now, that prison works and that it works much better if it is made much

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nastier for prisoners. That is a doctrine which has produced universal contempt among all those who know the subject. Mr. Howard is defying the opinion of the judges, the prison governors, the prison officers, the Probation Service, the Chief Inspector of Prisons, the criminologists and our five former Conservative Ministers. I am ready to believe that he means well. One should always make that assumption.
I recall that in his notable book the noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, had a frontispiece which reminded us that at the time of the Crucifixion of Christ the crowd cried, "Crucify him, crucify him". Pilate gave way. He met the requirements of the populace. That is what Michael Howard appears to be doing. He may be encouraged to be reminded that Pilate was canonised in the Coptic Church, so there is perhaps a chance for Mr. Howard. Pilate at least made fine efforts to try to avert the fury of the mob. It is not clear that Mr. Howard has made any efforts at all.
However, I cheer up. Nothing lasts for ever. In a few months "Howardism" will have passed away and we shall all be—I shall not say happy again because we can never be happy about prisons or crime—able to look forward with some confidence to a future in which more rational counsels prevail.
6.24 p.m.
Baroness Park of Monmouth: My Lords, I quote from the gracious Speech:
"My Government … stand ready to introduce legislation to provide for the decommissioning of firearms, ammunition and explosives in Northern Ireland".
The speech goes on to promise to,
"maintain close and friendly relations with the Republic of Ireland".
May I say that the latter aim will call for considerable determination on the Government's part if Mr. Spring continues to try to pre-empt vital decisions unilaterally. I refer to today's report of his statement that Sinn Fein could enter negotiations within weeks of any IRA ceasefire. Fortunately the Taoiseach's approach has been very different—statesmanlike and fair.
I raise the issue of the proposal to introduce legislation on decommissioning now, first, because it is quite as urgent to get not only guns but plastic explosive and bomb-making equipment off the street in Northern Ireland and the mainland as it is to do something quickly about handguns and knives; but, secondly, because for the two governments to be seen to be working out the detail of enabling legislation in both countries will be the best possible confidence building measure. It will show those who want peace, both in the North and in the South, that the practical steps which need to be taken are being worked out so that they can become law. That gives real power to the security forces in both the North and the South. That is North/South co-operation with which no one can quarrel. I hope very much that the Irish Government, which the Taoiseach said yesterday were working on the details, will make good progress.
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The Taoiseach declared after the Lisburn bomb:
"We, the people in the Republic, have no agenda of a progressive takeover of Northern Ireland against the wishes of the majority there There is no pan-nationalist agenda. Any government I lead would never be part of any such agenda".
He thus sent a vital message of reassurance. He also said that the Irish Government were studying intensively possible amendments to Articles 2 and 3 of the Constitution,
"which would emphasise that it is agreement between people—and not territorial aggrandisement—that we are seeking".
Unfortunately, the original framework document made it quite clear that this could only be done in the event of an overall settlement and it would be most unlikely that the Irish Government could realistically be expected to put this issue to its people in a referendum at this early stage in the talks, particularly while Sinn Fein/IRA excludes itself from them. This makes it all the more vital for work on the practical modalities of decommissioning to be seen to be leading to the framing of actual enabling legislation ready for use when the time comes. Nothing could be more reassuring, or more transparent, and nothing is more likely to flush out Sinn Fein/IRA's true position on the agenda of the talks.
Martin McGuinness, in a triumphalist mood in February 1995, said:
"What is our agenda? We want the ending of British rule in our country. The British Government has got to relinquish its illegal territorial claim over our six northern counties. They have got to leave our country for good".
Has that agenda changed? Is it negotiable? I think not. I hope therefore that both governments will pursue the talks, recognising that Sinn Fein/IRA does not even represent the majority of the minority group. Sinn Fein/IRA came well below the SDLP in the most recent poll and the SDLP and the Alliance Party deserve parity of esteem far more and can speak with authority in determining the future political shape of Northern Ireland within the Union and its status as a friendly and close neighbour with many common interests with the Republic.
The Secretary of State said in an interview in June this year that it had been deemed necessary to secure the confidence of all who need to be at the talks that everyone sitting at the table would be wholly committed to peaceful methods and democratic ways. He said:
"It is because it has proved very difficult to secure a practical means by which that confidence can be engendered that so much time has been taken up".
The framing and introduction of enabling legislation on decommissioning in both North and South can be that practical means. All that is needed after that is, of course, political will on both sides of the border.
6.30 p.m.
Lord Marlesford: My Lords, one of the things that strikes me with some surprise and disappointment in this debate is the absence of any voice from the Bench of Bishops. I would have thought that this is the sort of debate to which, if they are to justify their presence in your Lordships' House, they should have contributed.

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The approach to the problem of crime in our country and in our society varies vastly. It is perhaps that tremendous variation in approach which makes it particularly hard to agree on—and still harder to implement—effective solutions. Perhaps I may start by summarising what seems to be the difference between the two extreme positions. I believe that they are positions which we have to accept exist even if we do not share them or are perhaps to some extent repelled by them. The first is of course the "vengeance and retribution" view. It would suggest that no one has any excuse to commit crime; that criminals must be punished with severity proportional to the offence; that prison is the best answer, although there are those who believe that capital and corporal punishment may also have a role to play; the objects of prison are to punish, to confine and thus to protect society from the criminal and, not least, to act as a deterrent. To many of this persuasion reform of the criminal is a lost cause.
From this approach follows the view that prison should be as unpleasant an experience as possible. Criminals impose costs on society. They are costs to those affected by the crime and to the taxpayer in catching and confining them. There is little sympathy, therefore, for spending money on prisons except either to increase their capacity or to make them more secure. "Let them rot in goal" is a sentiment which is perhaps more widespread right across the political spectrum than some of us would like to admit. I suspect that it is often held particularly by those who themselves have had a tough and hard start in life, but who have not succumbed to the temptations of crime and therefore have not lost their own self-respect.
There is also—perhaps particularly on the part of that group—considerable resentment at the approach of the do-gooders. That is a resentment which is fanned by media accounts of individual crimes and of the way in which some criminals seem to be able to cock a snook at society as represented by the police, the judiciary, the taxpayer and, certainly not least, the victims of crime.
At the other end of the spectrum there are those who believe that it is society and not the individual which is chiefly at fault. To them there is of course crime and there are of course victims of crime, but there are few criminals. Most of those who commit crimes are themselves the victims of a society which is rotten and corrupt; unequal and unfair; materialistic and exploitative—a society in which there is an alienated minority at the bottom, referred to by one or two noble Lords, which is deprived both spiritually and materially, many of its members never having had the chance of employment. This group are the clients of social workers, teachers and the Churches. To them offenders primarily have rights rather than obligations. Some would not even regard crime against property as serious crime.
Prison is a great evil because not only does it deny individuals their precious right to liberty, but it exposes them to untold misery and gives them little or no scope for personal reform. In their view, prison should be concerned only with education and reform and the rehabilitation of the offender in a society which should be apologetic rather than condemnatory of the offender.
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To them, no method of fighting crime would be acceptable if it involves any infringement of civil liberties, which are of overriding value. The fact that the police have, all too frequently, been shown to have taken illegal shortcuts to secure convictions makes the perception of the police among the less fortunate as a repressive body. To many social workers the crime fighting activities of the police, and therefore any evidence that they give in court, should be viewed with deep suspicion by a jury. The consequent and rather widespread reluctance of juries to convict is itself profoundly demoralising for the police.
That attitude was exemplified to me recently by the chair of a Bench in a particularly deprived area of London, who was asked by the local head of the probation service to impose fewer community service orders on the grounds that there was a shortage of suitable tasks for offenders to perform. The magistrate suggested that surely clearing the locality of litter might provide some opportunities, but was told: "You do not understand: that activity would not be in accordance with the dignity of our clients".
I have characterised the two extremes of view. I am not suggesting that any of your Lordships would wish to occupy either of those positions. But there is this interesting dichotomy. I suspect that to some extent the dichotomy may arise from the Judaic-Christian origins of our own civilisation. Unless we understand that there are these two extreme positions, we cannot seek to find solutions unless we are consciously looking somewhere between them.
In giving one or two suggestions, I would like to start by asserting that advances in technology, and particularly in information technology and closed-circuit television, can give the forces of law and order a huge opportunity to fight crime both through detention and protection. I submit—and I particularly ask my noble friend to advocate this with the Treasury—that the capital costs of setting up such a capability is thoroughly cost effective in terms of public spending.
I am sorry to say that one of the problems—indeed, obstacles—has in the past been the Home Office itself. I have had experience in dealing with the Home Office in some of these areas of public policy for over 30 years since my days working in Whitehall with the Central Policy Review staff. In those days dealing with the Home Office was rather like dealing with the North Korean Government. It was so opaque and resistant to new ideas that I concluded that it was the most constipated department in Whitehall.
We often hear of the need for reforming Home Secretaries. Sadly for many Home Secretaries, the Home Office tends to be a political graveyard. What I believe is needed is a reforming Permanent Under-Secretary at the Home Office. The present Permanent Under-Secretary is Mr. Richard Wilson. I have never met him. But he does perhaps have one big advantage: he had never before served in that department before taking up that post.
1 was, of course, glad to hear in the gracious Speech that a first step is to be taken on the introduction of identity cards, but I must once again emphasise that it

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is not the card which matters; it is the need for a secure and unique national identity number which is crucial. I noted that the House of Commons Select Committee on Home Affairs, in a remarkably weak report, specifically recommended that, on civil liberties grounds,
"a unique identity number for each card holder should not be introduced".
Pursuing that line would result in the waste of much public money and I am thankful that in their August White Paper the Government did not specifically endorse that ill-conceived recommendation.
Secondly, the full application of information technology to the management of the prison population should be a high priority. It is deplorable that there is still no single United Kingdom data base for that purpose and it is still more astonishing that the police are not able to access the limited data bases that do exist.
Another deeply worrying problem is the extent of drug use in prisons, with the suggestion that prison staff are involved in facilitating that drug use through either corruption or intimidation. I would hope that General Sir David Ramsbotham will be encouraged to address problems such as those. Although I cannot claim to know him, I have met him on a number of occasions and I feel that, given proper support from the Home Secretary, he would be able to make the administration of our prisons a great deal more effective than is the case today.
One of the best ways of reducing the prison population is, I believe, by drastically expanding and changing the administration of community service orders. As we have heard, it costs some £24,000 a year to keep someone in prison whereas implementing a community service order costs little more than one-fifth of that amount. I believe that there should be two categories of community service: the first is the rather gentle type which is used at present, and the second would be a far tougher back-up. I do not have the time to go into that in any more detail now, but I should be delighted to discuss my ideas later with my noble friend if she is interested.
I have two other suggestions. I believe that there should be restrictions on the movement of major criminals on their release from prison. That should be introduced on a European basis. I repeat that I am talking about major offenders who, on sentencing, should be subject to a number of years of confinement in the country in which they committed their offences. If found in another European country, they should be subject to immediate deportation and probably subject to a further period of confinement. In addition, we should take effective steps permanently to exclude from this country those who are known to have been convicted of certain serious crimes in any part of the world. Again, information technology would make that feasible. Such measures would seriously inhibit the operation of international crime syndicates.
Closed circuit television is being used with increasing success in a whole variety of urban situations. I believe that it is now needed in the small rural areas of the sort that I come from. In this connection, I should like to ask
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my noble friend to look at the way in which the Post Office is failing to meet its obligations to sub-postmasters and the communities they serve. I am thinking particularly of Suffolk and Norfolk where a vicious gang has been raiding unprotected sub-post offices with impunity. It is simply not good enough for the Post Office to say that it cannot afford to fit intruder alarms which are linked to the police. Until that is done the police will have little hope of catching such gangs.
The people of this country perceive crime as one of the major problems with which they expect the Government to deal. There are big variations in the way in which the subject is being approached, but I very much hope that your Lordships' House will assist the Government perhaps in digesting more fully some of the proposals in the gracious Speech.
6.44 p.m.
Lord Monson: My Lords, it is always daunting to follow the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, whose speeches are invariably so interesting and well delivered. The virtual avoidance of controversy and the atmosphere of general good will that pervaded this House yesterday to an even greater extent than usual on such occasions will have lifted the spirits of all noble Lords who were present. Unhappily, all good things have to come to an end.
When rights which have existed for centuries are threatened and when tens of thousands of law-abiding citizens risk being deprived of their possessions and the chance to practice their favourite sporting activities, when the livelihood of many thousands of others is at stake—and all as a panic political reaction to an understandable emotional reaction to a single truly horrible but unique and isolated incident—fierce controversy there is bound to be. I refer, of course, to the proposal in the gracious Speech to introduce a Bill to strengthen controls on the ownership of firearms, as fleshed out by the Statement repeated in this House on 16th October.
Many critics have already cited the unhappy example of the Dangerous Dogs Act, but at least that Act (flawed as it is) was to a large extent a response to the introduction into this country of a new breed of dog bred specifically for its aggressive qualities. In contrast, no novel or above averagely dangerous firearms are being legally shipped into this country at the moment. On the contrary, a substantial proportion of existing legally held weapons have been scrapped—albeit with no beneficial effect on the crime rate; quite the reverse.
In 1954, when there were very few restrictions on the legal ownership of guns compared to today, there were only four robberies in London involving the use of firearms. However, 27 years later, in 1991, there were 1,600 such robberies—a 400-fold increase—despite the drastic curbs imposed since 1954 upon legal gun ownership. One reason, of course, is that Europe is awash with illegal (and fairly inexpensive) guns, particularly since the fall of the Soviet empire. We read almost daily of demoralised Russian troops in Chechnya and elsewhere selling their weapons. One of Britain's most distinguished criminologists, Professor

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Waddington, is on record as agreeing in June of this year that the problem of crime and violence will not be solved by the abolition of privately held weapons.
This is the moment to reiterate my declaration of interest. I own two "handguns"—I prefer to call them "pistols" because that is the traditional English word, which is synonymous with "handgun"—which are beautiful examples of craftsmanship and have been in my family for over 80 and over 100 years respectively. For various reasons, they are of historical as well as aesthetic interest. I no longer possess ammunition for them and am content that that should remain the case. The age of the guns—between 80 and 105 years—is significant. We hear nowadays numerous sneers against the so-called "gun lobby"—mainly from those with no knowledge of, or interest in, our history.
In 1900 Lord Salisbury, the great-great-grandfather of the noble Viscount the Leader of the House (if I have done my calculations correctly), who was then Prime Minister, declared that he would,
"laud the day when there was a rifle in every cottage in England".
Other distinguished figures enthusiastically joined in efforts to encourage "working men" and what were described as "working boys" to shoot,
"as an ordinary branch of recreation",
including the Lord Mayor of London, the Lord Mayor of Liverpool, the Duke of Westminster, the Duke of Norfolk and the Archbishop of York. I suppose that they would nowadays be described as a "gun lobby".
Reverting for a moment to the present day, it is noteworthy that Her Majesty the Queen is patron of the National Rifle Association and that Prince Charles is its president. The policy of encouraging ordinary respectable people of every class to own and learn how to handle guns was so successful that when in 1909 two Russian anarchists robbed a bank in Tottenham they were chased across North London by an impromptu posse of police and armed citizens. The police, not all of whom were at that moment armed, borrowed at least four revolvers at random from passers-by. Yet crimes involving guns were extremely few in number at that time. It was only in 1920—three years after the Russian Revolution, when Bolshevik mini-revolutions were breaking out, or had already broken out, in Germany, Hungary and elsewhere on the Continent and the government of the day were fearful of a communist uprising in Glasgow, Liverpool and London (or possibly all three cities simultaneously), that gun controls were first introduced, albeit of a mild nature compared with today ' s.
I do not want to bombard your Lordships with statistics but there are two present-day figures that may provide food for thought. First, there are fourteen-and-a-half times as many legally-held guns per capita in Switzerland as there are in the Netherlands, yet the homicide rate is virtually identical in those two countries. Secondly, in 1993 there were per capita two-and-a-half times as many households in England and Wales in which guns were kept as there were in the Netherlands, yet there were three-and-a-half times as many homicides involving guns in the Netherlands as there were in England and Wales. Put another way, there
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was an inverse correlation between legal gun ownership and gun homicide. The more guns legally held in one particular country, the less they were used for the purposes of murder or manslaughter.
This is not the moment to comment in any detail upon a Bill that has not yet been published, but two points can usefully be made on the basis of what has been trailed in advance. Anyone who knows anything about guns will acknowledge that, except in freak circumstances, an ordinary 12-bore shotgun is much more lethal at close and medium ranges than a .22 or even .32 pistol. Therefore, the extremely restrictive controls envisaged for the latter seem to be way over the top. I listened carefully to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Windlesham. I acknowledge that .22 pistols have been used in assassinations and attempted assassinations, but I believe that such few potential assassins as there are in this country would have no difficulty whatever in availing themselves of illegal weapons.
Mr. Jim Sharples of the Association of Chief Police Officers asserted to the Select Committee that the public would be much safer if handguns were safely stored at home rather than at gun clubs, as proposed by the Government. That is a proposition with which I wholly agree. Surely, the moderate and practical solution is the complete separation of guns from ammunition, the former being kept in a safe at home and the latter in a safe at the gun club. There is not room in most gun clubs to store weapons in safety. Of course, it would not close every loophole. Nothing will stop determined fanatics, in particular one who is quite happy to sacrifice his own life. In the absence of guns he will use arson, or a stolen lorry, both of which are easily capable of killing 20 or more people at a time.
Not for a second can one blame the families of those children murdered at Dunblane for advocating a course of action based on emotion. We would all react in the same way if any members of our families were murdered in the same cruel manner. But surely it is the duty of legislators to base their legislation on reason rather than transient emotion, particularly when the proposed legislation puts in jeopardy the longstanding rights and livelihoods of tens of thousands of law-abiding individuals.
I have just advocated the use of reason rather than emotion. With the civilised atmosphere which prevailed in this House yesterday once again in mind, I hope that your Lordships will join me in deploring the vicious and prejudiced attacks made on the Conservative Members of the House of Commons Select Committee on Home Affairs even before that committee had published its report on the Dunblane killings. I refer in particular to the ugly attacks on the chairman, Sir Ivan Lawrence. Those attacks grossly exceeded the unspoken limits on political vituperation to which we are accustomed in this country and appeared to be specifically designed to intimidate, and to stifle honest disagreement.
6.55 p.m.
Lord Harding of Petherton: My Lords, I was delighted to hear in the gracious Speech that the aim of the Government was economic growth in a low inflation

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environment. The two go together. If anyone still doubts this, he should look at the history of South American countries. Of course, it is possible to allow economic activity to grow quite fast and to increase employment. However, if inflation is much increased the resulting growth and increase in employment will be only temporary. There is a timelag to this. That makes it difficult in a democracy, especially when elections are looming, for politicians to stick to policies which keep inflation low. There is considerable debate as to how much growth in a mature industrial country will cause inflation to rise.
As the Governor of the Bank of England said the other day, this is not an exact science. In my view, it is better to err on the side of caution, but perhaps not too much caution. Looking at the economic history of this country over the past 30 years, very often these facts have been ignored by governments of both parties. To be charitable, some leading government Ministers have appeared not to have understood them properly. However, since John Major became Prime Minister they have been understood and acted upon by the Government, however unpopular they have been at times.
I have begun on an economic note because these matters affect unemployment. Unemployment and how to deal with it is a social as well as an economic problem. Unemployment is a scourge which any government must do their best to bring down to acceptable levels. It is devastating for those involved if it lasts for more than a few months. If people are unemployed for long, some will give up the struggle. Many become dependent on the state and are disheartened or unwilling to find work when jobs reappear. I believe that in a civilised, modern industrial country where the majority of the working population is reasonably well off, it is fundamental that a safety net should be provided for the unemployed and their families. However, this involves an enormous expenditure of taxpayers' money. Governments should do all that they can to ensure that that money goes to those who really need it. Those who have been unemployed for over a year and have not found jobs should be helped to do so. I commend the Government on the measures that they have introduced to do this. Fraud should be rooted out. The Government are also trying to do this. At the beginning of the debate, my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor referred to a new Bill which would help to do this.
On all of these matters the Labour Party has appeared to move a long way in reaching agreement, except to give any praise the Conservative Government for their policies. I do not expect that. I suppose that that is the nature of opposition. Not so the churches. In particular, the Roman Catholic and Church of England bishops appear to believe that the Government can provide for everyone. With great respect to the Roman Catholic bishops, I urge them to read the New Testament again. Nowhere do the Gospels report that Jesus made any political pronouncements. Jesus was not concerned primarily with people's material well-being but with every person's attitude to God and his fellow man—
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for the politically correct, that would obviously include woman. He summed up all of the Commandments which his fellow Jews regarded as the mainstay of their religion into two: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy might and thy neighbour as thyself. Even if it is difficult with today's scientific knowledge for some to believe in an all-seeing, creative God, there is no better code by which to live one's life than Jesus's second commandment.
I do not believe however that the bishops' espousal of specific policies follows from Jesus's teaching. The Catholic bishops say that a government have the right to lay down a minimum wage, and that a just wage should be paid to employees. A minimum wage set too high will cause more unemployment. Where is the justice in that? It is possible for some employers to pay their workers more than others can. Young people starting in employment are not much use to employers until they have learnt how to do the job well. If they have to be paid the same as the average, fewer will be employed. The high rate of youth unemployment visible in some countries of the EU is proof of the iniquities of a minimum wage.
What is a just wage? Are Church of England country parsons, looking after five parishes, paid a just wage? The bishops say that every employee has the right to join a trade union. I do not want to go in for trade union bashing, but trade unions have in the past abused their power, and indeed in two public services (the Post Office and London Transport) are doing the same today. An employer setting up in business has every right to say that he does not want his employees to belong to a trade union, knowing the trouble that might cause in a fledgling business.
I have no problem with the preface to The Common Good and the Catholic Church's social teaching by Archbishop Basil Hume, published last week, or with the introduction and guide to the document written by Bishop Konstant, the Roman Catholic Bishop of Leeds, up to where he says on page 4:
"In the following paragraphs we apply these ideas to some of the major questions in contemporary British society".
The ideas which he means are all general ideas of right and wrong, the importance of the individual, looking after the poor in society, the evils of totalitarianism and untrammelled capitalist systems, and so forth. Very few, if any, would question those general principles. He also expounds the great good that the Catholic Church has done and continues to do.
As a member of the Church of England I have great admiration for the good which the Catholic Church does. I admire, in particular, its great emphasis on the importance of family life. However, when the Catholic bishops who wrote The Common Good begin to go into specific aspects of government policy, I cannot go with them. For instance, at paragraph 21 on page 8, the text states:
"There are ways of structuring society which facilitate true human development and correspond to moral principles and demands".
That does not square with the aspirations of a free people. It is a top-down approach, alien to our British tradition.

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The whole approach of The Common Good, when it comes to specifics, is that we can somehow create a good and just society by passing laws and creating institutions and structures. That, in my humble opinion, is contrary to Jesus's teaching. He always emphasised personal responsibility and individual conscience. I have seen nowhere in the Gospels that Jesus proposed that government or the organisation of society should be carried out in any particular way. Of course, loving thy neighbour as thyself means that that must be done by people in authority in all walks of life as well as by ordinary people who have no authority over anyone.
The organisation of society and laws affecting business, trade unions, and people's rights and duties are matters of political opinion and debate. I believe in democracy, but I believe that it has many flaws. The Catholic bishops say that certain things must happen. I believe that free market capitalism has benefited and will continue to benefit millions of people in their material prosperity. I agree with the Catholic bishops that its excesses and failures must be rectified by regulation and state help for those who fail or fall on hard times. I disagree with their espousal of certain policies which are a matter of political debate.
Church of England bishops have also criticised Conservative governments since 1979. They have every right to do so. I do not dispute that. However, they would do well to ponder the remarks made the other day by the noble Lord, Lord Harris of High Cross, when he said that they should learn a little bit about economics.
During the past few days one bishop on the radio or television has said that Tories should all embrace the social conscience of some of those he knew. I should be the first to castigate those in my party who were motivated purely by greed and selfish interests. I believe that there are very few such people in my party. There are certainly differences of opinion. It would be quite wrong if there were not. However, the policies of Margaret Thatcher, followed on by John Major, have been proved to be the right ones. We have a far stronger economy and greater social cohesion than we had in 1979. I disagree entirely with the noble Lord, Lord Richard, who said the opposite at the beginning of this debate. He offered no proof of that at all. In my opinion, the so-called "wets" have been proved wrong.
Practically every country in the world has followed our lead in privatisation. Free market economics have and will continue to improve the lives of millions of people throughout the world. Of course capitalism and free markets are cruel to some. That is why it is essential to have a safety net of welfare for those who fall by the wayside, often through no fault of their own. It is a matter for political debate as to how extensive the welfare system should be and as to how it should be arranged—by means testing or all-inclusive benefits, and so forth.
The bishops often imply that those who wish to cut back the welfare state are wicked. It can equally be said that those who are wicked are those who are able-bodied and live off the state and allow hard working people to support them through their taxes.
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Mrs. Lawrence's brave public moral appeal has struck a chord in us all. It is up to all of us, including the bishops, to reach out to the young and to promote policies which encourage family life. That is the way to defeat violence in young people and to give them hope for the future.
7.8 p.m.
Lord Rea: My Lords, the tenor of my speech will be a little different from most of those made this afternoon. I have to admit that I have not been here for all the speeches, but I do not believe that any speaker has so far looked at the part of the Government's legislative programme which deals with primary care. As someone who has spent more than half a lifetime as an NHS GP, it is appropriate for me to make a few remarks about that proposed legislation, as it was mentioned in the gracious Speech and by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor earlier this afternoon.
A White Paper describing the purpose of the legislation was published on 15th October. Like the BMA, we on these Benches welcome the stated intentions of the Bill and the fact that its provisions will be voluntary and that the proposed new projects will be subject to evaluation.
In the debates on the National Health Service and Community Care Bill 1991 we proposed that pilot studies should be carried out. However, the Government decided that that was not possible and the nationwide change in the administrative structure of the National Health Service was applied without prior evaluation. In contrast, in the 20 pages of the White Paper the words "pilot", or "piloting", or "pilots" appear no fewer than 49 times, so much so that I almost saw a leather helmeted, goggled, Biggles-like figure zooming between the pages. It certainly seemed as though some air traffic control were necessary.
Despite the fact that the intentions of the proposed legislation are good, some aspects are worrying and could lead to disruption of the public service role and ethos of general practice in the NHS. For instance, allowing contracts for general practice services to be offered by supermarkets or pharmaceutical firms sounds troubling. However, perhaps in order to calm fears that those moves might destroy a trusted system through creeping privatisation, the White Paper states that patients must continue to have a right to be registered with a general practitioner. However, if alternative styles of primary healthcare are available in supermarkets a form of bus ticket medicine could develop in parallel or in competition with NHS primary care. The extremely valuable benefit of continuing care by a personal doctor or group practice in which the partners share the patients' medical records might be lost.
Of course, there can be no real objection to general practitioners practising from supermarkets if comprehensive practices are located there. Indeed, there are examples of such arrangements which have been negotiated under current legislation. The same applies to primary healthcare units working on National Health Service trust premises. There are already a variety of different ways of enabling members of professions

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allied to medicine, in particular nurses, to work as part of primary healthcare teams. There are some cases in which nurses have joined partnerships. Therefore, I believe that some of the benefits claimed for the proposed legislation are already attainable. There are plenty of examples of good practice around the country which could be emulated if the will and resources existed.
I am also aware that in Britain there are many thoroughly inadequate examples of general practice and if the legislation helps to speed up progress and raise standards we shall be extremely pleased. However, when the legislation comes before us we shall examine it closely to see whether its provisions are necessary or helpful and to suggest safeguards to minimise any possible harmful effects which it might have on the National Health Service. Certain aspects are clearly welcome if not long overdue. A salaried option for general practitioners, instead of being independent contractors paid on a capitation basis as at present, will be extremely useful where, for instance, the recruitment of doctors has been difficult in certain inner city areas or where populations have a nomadic or chaotic lifestyle, such as travellers or the homeless in inner cities, and because of their lifestyle cannot or do not register with a GP. That has already been achieved in some areas but it needs to be made easier and more attractive.
Turning to another provision in the Bill, it is strange that the requirement for health authorities to appoint a candidate for a single-handed GP vacancy, however unsuitable the candidate, was not changed a long time ago. Under the proposed legislation only suitable candidates will be appointed and, if necessary, the vacancy will be held open until then.
Yesterday the noble Lord, Lord Colwyn, spoke of primary healthcare as the gateway to the National Health Service. It is certainly that but it is also much more. For the majority of the population primary healthcare is the National Health Service. It carries an increasing amount of the burden of the continuing care of the chronically ill and elderly as well as increasingly playing the main role in preventive care.
The White Paper and legislation propose to assist that development to go further, but legislation is one thing and putting it into action is another. For that resources are necessary. Page 4 of the White Paper states that consideration must be given to sharing resources between the different branches of the National Health Service. That sounds very much as though the resources for primary healthcare development may have to come from the share now going to secondary healthcare. However, in answer to a Starred Question last week we heard how desperately strained are the finances of many NHS trust hospitals. Beds are being closed and operations are being postponed. It is not possible to transfer funds from one to the other. I suggest that improved primary healthcare in deprived areas, which is what the legislation should be about, will initially result in more and not fewer referrals to hospitals.
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I wish to draw your Lordships' attention to one other aspect of healthcare. It is the plight of doctors working in academic medicine. The Government have failed to honour their commitment to the link between NHS and clinical academic salaries. They must do that. The future of British academic medicine—in fact of all British medicine because that is the fount of it—depends on a healthy academic base. The impending crisis in patient care is caused by the exodus of doctors from university medical departments—57 professorial chairs, which is one in 10, remain unfilled—and there are problems in recruitment at all levels. The situation is so serious that the CVCP has set up an independent inquiry into disincentives to a career in academic medicine. It is perverse that the universities have failed to honour the 1996 pay award for clinical academics. The university employers have made a formal offer of 1.5 per cent. to the medical and dental professions, claiming that, given the current funding constraints, that is the maximum they can afford. Naturally, that offer has been turned down because it is well below the NHS pay award for consultants, registrars and senior registrars of approximately 3.8 per cent.
I must put on record the fact that Britain's university doctors have given the universities two months' notice to resolve the crisis affecting clinical academic salaries before taking formal steps to discourage doctors from applying for university medical posts. Of course, the universities do not have the money to give to the academic medics and the Government must intervene to rescue the situation. Time and again clinical academics have had to wait between six months and a year before the situation has been resolved but this year it appears to be considerably more serious.
As regards the original legislation, I should just like to say in my concluding remarks that I have a little feeling that the proposed legislation sounds good but that, actually, the improvements that it is meant to achieve are very largely already in train and could be achieved without it. In that case, it seems rather to fall into line with some of the other legislative proposals that are contained in the Queen's Speech this year.
7.20 p.m.
Lord Annaly: My Lords, as the 22nd speaker in today's debate on the gracious Speech, I am very conscious that noble Lords will be keen now to hear the concluding speeches from the Opposition and Government Front Benches. My intention is not to detain your Lordships for long and to concentrate my remarks on the firearms legislation which was referred to in the gracious Speech.
I must first say that I am the father of three children aged between nine and six years of age. Like I expect every parent in the country, not to mention every sane person, I was horrified by the appalling events in Dunblane in March. The hearts of the whole country went out to the bereaved families and, indeed, to all those involved in this appalling tragedy.
In the aftermath of that tragedy, the Government acted promptly in setting up a public inquiry. Following the publication of Lord Cullen's most thorough report

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last week, we shall shortly now be considering a government Bill which goes even further than the proposals put forward by Lord Cullen by banning handguns of the calibre of more than .22 and by prohibiting people from keeping even single shot handguns at home.
I ought to point out that I am not a member of a gun club and that I only ever fired a handgun while I was in the Army. However, I do hold a shotgun certificate. There are several concerns which I have regarding the well-intentioned proposed legislation. I am not convinced that keeping .22 handguns centrally in a few secure gun clubs will prevent another Dunblane. Even in Army armouries, which, after all, are checked daily, there have been a few occasions in recent years where weapons have gone missing. I doubt whether any gun club armoury would be as secure as a carefully monitored Army armoury.
Surely if someone with evil intentions wants to obtain a handgun, he will find a way somehow to do so. It may sound as if I am arguing for a total ban on handguns, like, I understand, the two parties opposite. That is not the case. I am a supporter of the great majority of law-abiding firearm certificate holders who possess handguns and whose activities are lawful. Somehow we need to tighten up the vetting procedure for applicants and recover the many illegal unlicensed handguns which we are told exist.
As the noble Lord, Lord Monson, has already said, shotguns are just as lethal at short range as a handgun. I believe that pump action shotguns are still available to purchase. If some mentally unstable person was to, God forbid!, commit an atrocity in the future along the lines of Dunblane using a shotgun, do I take it that all law-abiding owners of shotguns would then be under threat of having to keep their shotguns centrally somewhere? Indeed, I wonder how that would actually work in any event, whether one is a game shooter or a clay pigeon shooter. We have a clay pigeon club in my neighbourhood of which I am not a member. The members shoot in a field. There is no building and certainly nowhere central for those who shoot there to keep their guns.
I urge caution on my right honourable friend in another place. We should not legislate against law-abiding handgun users and miss the real target; namely, the illegal users of such weapons and also those unsuitable people who should not be granted a licence in the first place.
7.24 p.m.
Earl Russell: My Lords, in deciding to hold this Session, the Prime Minister has been a little in the position of a captain who decided to claim the extra half hour and then not to try to knock off the runs. It is a situation which tends to lead to a certain amount of tedium. In that situation there is obviously a temptation to indulge in a certain amount of electioneering. I shall make a confession to your Lordships. I really rather enjoy a little electioneering every now and then. However, this is not the right place to do it. The definition of electioneering is that it involves addressing
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the voters. There are no voters in this Chamber. Our duties here are those of a revising Chamber. Our duty is to look at the wording of legislation and to try, if possible, to ensure that we get it right. Therefore, for most of what I have to say I shall try to concentrate on that duty.
When I came here this morning I had not intended to say anything about Scottish devolution, but I must confess that I have been tempted by the noble Lords, Lord Sewell and Lord Campbell of Croy, to venture briefly into that field. As it happens, I was working late last night on an essay on how James VI and I ruled over two kingdoms. That is the central point of the whole devolution debate.
The United Kingdom is not, as Mr. Major supposes—and, indeed, repeated during his party conference this year—a state with a thousand years of history. The United Kingdom is a merging of sovereign states and a merging which has happened with Scotland and with Wales in two very different ways. What is distinctive about the Union between England and Scotland is the fact that it is a union of fairly recent date between two fully sovereign states. That is why Britain is not a unitary state. It does not have the chief characteristic of a unitary state—of a single system of law. I believe that to be an argument in favour of the argument put forward in the Claim of Right; namely, that there is a residual sovereignty residing in the Scottish people. If it does not reside there, I do not know where else it resides. But an international treaty—which is what the Act of Union, like the Treaty of Rome, is—cannot possibly be non-negotiable.
There is something that we must accept in that respect, although I notice that the noble Lord, Lord Milverton, was extremely surprised when it was pointed out earlier. There is not now consent to continuing the old form of the Union. It must be renegotiated or it must cease. However, when it is renegotiated, I hope that it will be understood that it is a union between two nations which retain a residual sovereignty. Any Bill which did not recognise that fact would, I must confess, put me in considerable difficulties.
I turn now to the one Bill in the gracious Speech which is within my own departmental brief; namely, the Bill which will deal with benefit fraud. We on these Benches welcome that legislation in principle. Fraud is a crime. It is rightly classified under the Theft Acts. Crime must be repressed and any money obtained by fraud is obtained at the expense of someone else. However, in welcoming the Bill in principle, we will also want to scrutinise the detail of its wording with a good deal of care. Because fraud is a crime, it must be proved beyond reasonable doubt. We will want to look at the opportunities available for defence for those who will be accused of this crime and who may perhaps not be in a particularly good position to afford to conduct a defence of their own. I shall look carefully into that aspect of the matter.
Granted that there is a strong case, which we accept, for the interchange of information, we shall also be concerned with ensuring that such information is accurate. It is my understanding that not all information

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held in every government record is necessarily accurate; or, indeed, in any other computer record. There was a case in one of today's newspapers regarding someone who was refused credit because his bank had a mistaken record which showed that he had an unpaid debt of £32,000, not a penny of which he actually owed. Therefore we shall want to know that there is a safeguard against that sort of error. We shall want to know that the proceedings will be conducted in a cost-effective manner. That means that in dealing with housing benefit fraud we must not concentrate exclusively on fraud by claimants but also on fraud by landlords, who are in a much better position to make a considerable killing out of fraud. That also needs to be dealt with. I hope that the Bill will pay attention to that.
I also wish to express the strong hope that any computer contracts arising from that Bill will not be given to EDS Computers, in whom we on these Benches have a limited amount of confidence. I hope also that it will not be used—necessary as this campaign is—for demonising those on benefit and diminishing sympathy for them. I hope the Minister will agree that the vast majority of benefit claimants are honest and that nothing in the pursuit of fraud will in any way be meant to claim anything different.
As my noble friend has already said, we welcome the Bills on stalking and paedophilia. We are glad that those will be discussed in government time. These are vital Bills and we must get them right. In saying that we welcome them we shall want to look with some care at the way they are worded. I hope that it will be possible to conduct some negotiation in private on that wording in order to save the time of this Chamber. If we want to get them on the statute book in the time available—as we do—that will mean talking about some of the difficulties before they are discussed in the Chamber. The Chamber has many virtues, but it is a time-consuming way of negotiating.
As regards the stalking Bill, I hope that it will protect men as well as women. In these days of fatal attractions I fear that that is necessary. By coincidence, I had just decided that I must ask about that matter when I was told about a case of a man who is the victim of a quite acute case of stalking. The woman concerned pursued him all the way to the Canary Islands. Granted the extreme difficulties of defining the crime of stalking, I shall be interested to discover whether it has been defined with sufficient care to make it possible for the accused to mount an adequate defence. If one is to defend oneself, one must be clear exactly what it is one has to disprove.
As regards the Bill concerning the register of paedophiles, it is clearly necessary. I hope that the Minister can assure me that it will be confined to convicted paedophiles and that there will be no question of suspicion. I hope she can also assure me that access to the register will be on a need to know basis. We do not want to make it the basis of a neighbourhood witch-hunt. With those provisos it would be a good and necessary Bill. However, in the long term we must hope
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that sooner or later someone will find some way of treating and curing paedophilia. Research in this field is urgent.
I also wish to refer briefly to the consequences of Mr. Justice Collins' judgment about the local authority obligation to provide housing for asylum seekers. The noble Baroness will be familiar with the bed situation in Hillingdon hospital which provided an extremely interesting programme on "Newsnight" recently, which I doubt whether the Government found particularly pleasant listening. We have had recently a press release from the directors of social services' meeting in Edinburgh which drew attention to the effect of the need to care for asylum seekers, which takes up social services resources and therefore creates bed blocking in hospitals. The press release stated:
"Across 23 London boroughs … 725 families … are currently being supported by social services".
The directors said they expected a further 1,200 families at least to be seeking help from social services in the near future.
In Camden asylum seekers are now being put in an old people's home in response to that judgment. The Camden director of social services said he regarded that as an unsatisfactory solution but he is under a legal obligation which he must discharge.
Hillingdon hospital is in the area of Heathrow airport. I cannot help wondering what connection there is between the need to support asylum seekers which is suddenly thrust upon local authorities and the blocking of beds in the area of Heathrow airport. It is at least a plausible hypothesis that there is a connection. On 4th March in an answer given to a Starred Question by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, the Government promised help to local authorities who are particularly burdened with offering support to asylum seekers.
In referring to a Written Answer of 16th August I wish to thank the noble Baroness and her officials for their work on that Answer on that date. The noble Baroness said that a statement about help for local authorities would be put before us early in this Session. When she replies to this debate I hope that the Minister can tell me that an announcement along those lines is imminent, because it is certainly an urgent matter.
That brings me to the major business of the speech, and that is the Bill on crime and sentencing. The noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, rightly said that his division into two sorts of attitude to crime was a bit of a cartoon. I would prefer to divide it differently. During the previous election it struck me that we all need two lots of policies on crime: one to satisfy the voters and the other to control crime. The Conservative Party has always been extremely good at the first; it has not been as good at the second, which is why ever since the war crime has risen faster under Conservative governments than under other governments.
When I discuss the White Paper and the Bill, when it arrives, the question I shall ask is whether it will protect the public. That seems to me the only important question that we have to ask about it because, as Jeremy Bentham said,

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"All punishment is in itself pain and ought to be admitted, if at all, only in order to avoid a greater pain".
The Home Secretary seems to be abandoning the Gilbertian ambition to make the punishment fit the crime, because it is the central point of minimum sentences that they do not recognise that one burglary is not like another and one rape is not like another. As the noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, pointed out, one drug pushing is not like another. This is a formula approach and it comes out of the same mind as the CSA. Your Lordships know where that leads. However, I agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Bingham, who said that minimum sentences were not unconstitutional. They have indeed been administered before.
Up to the penal reforms of the 1820s it used to be a capital offence to steal goods worth more than one shilling. The first effect of that was that there was no longer any deterrent effect against the severer crimes. If you had already committed a capital offence you could not receive a worse sentence. That is the origin of the proverb that you may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb. I think it has something to do with the 16th century homicide rate.
The death penalty was measured by the value of the stolen goods, but the value of the stolen goods was a question of fact and therefore of course it had to be a matter for the jury. Therefore we find over and over again that people accused of stealing goods worth £5, £10 or £20 were convicted for stealing goods worth 11½d It was a carefully graduated system of mercy conducted by a jury which was still supposed to know the locality of the criminal and the victim. It cannot be done as precisely by juries who no longer know the offenders and the community. However, it will be done.
I do not think it will lead to as many convictions as the Home Secretary thinks. Also the Home Secretary does not seem to have taken into account the amount of crime committed in prison. He says that while people are in prison they do not commit crime. I took part in a debate on 10th January initiated by the noble Lord, Lord Henderson of Brompton, on the Howard League Report, Banged Up, Beaten Up, Cutting Up. It was a painfully clear conclusion from that report that as much crime is committed in prison as outside; and that is still crime. If we are talking about a reduction in crime we need to reduce that too.
I believe that in criticising measures to protect the public one should say how one would do it one's self. We would begin with prevention, which is proverbially better than cure. First, I heard what the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, said about the protection of sub-post offices. That story can be repeated many times. Secondly, we must have better detection. At the moment, I understand that only 3 per cent. of crimes committed end in a conviction. While that is so, how can criminals possibly believe that they will be sentenced; and if they do not believe that they will be sentenced, how can they be deterred by any sentence?
Finally—I listened with great interest to the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Murray of Epping Forest—we must do something about exclusion. I entirely agree that crime is a matter of individual responsibility, but that is
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no excuse for leading people into temptation. We would aim at a situation where no one needs to commit crime in order to eat, and until this Government can match that aim they are not in a position to be quite as condemnatory as they are—and they are a long way from achieving it.
7.41 p.m.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, slightly over a year ago, in a document which I am sure he did not mean to see the public light of day, Mr. John Maples, vice-chairman of the Conservative Party, confessed that his objective for a legislative programme for the Government for 1995-96 would give priority to wrong-footing the Opposition rather than to achieve the aims of the Conservative Party. In greater or lesser degree, according to the departments—in greater degree so far as concerns the Home Office—that was what happened over the past 12 months. It did not work very well. However, the Government do not seem to have learned by their experiences over the past 12 months and are apparently determined that the same principle shall apply over the next six months. We have only to consider the reversals and about-turns of the past 28 hours to realise that there is no consideration in any of the legislative proposals for the improvement of our society or the elimination of crime. They are only an attempt to see how far the Conservative election handbook can be fattened with quotations claiming that the Labour Party is soft on crime and that only a Conservative Party has effective policies to deal with crime.
Clearly the gracious Speech is more complicated than that. It deals with many matters other than crime although it is a rag bag, tail end series of measures. As a result, the debate today has been extremely diverse in the attention paid to different subjects. In an admirable opening speech, the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor kept his nose close to the grindstone. He described legislation and made no general claims for a pattern underlying the measures. I have no doubt that the House will be grateful to him, as it should be, for the attention that he paid to the detail of legislation. However, I believe that the noble and learned Lord would agree that the measures cover a wide range of subjects and have no particular pattern or thrust of policy as we approach the next six months of Parliament.
To some extent I am afraid that the same will be true of what I have to say. I am relieved that I do not need to say anything about Scotland because I could not pretend to the expertise of my noble friend Lord Sewel. I do not need to say anything about primary care because I could not pretend to the expertise of my noble friend Lord Rea. I wish to say a brief word about social security fraud although again I cannot pretend to the expertise of the noble Earl, Lord Russell; and my noble friend Lady Hollis is using her time more usefully rehearsing the Christmas Oratorio. However, to talk about social security fraud, as some unwise government spokesmen have done, as though it were a newly arisen issue which needed fresh legislative concern is somewhat to distort the truth. After all, the fraud about

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which the Government talk is very much the fraud of landlords and tenants; and of those two very much the fraud connived at or even created by landlords. The Labour Party has been urging for many years that there should be more effective control over housing benefit fraud by landlords and the Government have been resisting such pressure. For example, they resisted powers for local authorities to collate and list the different properties owned by landlords whose tenants claim housing benefit. It is a little odd that we should have this social security fraud helpline opened at a time when the benefits fraud helpline is being closed down. There are a number of questions about the social security fraud Bill which will require a good deal of parliamentary attention.
The noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor gave us an introduction to the Civil Procedure Bill, which was welcome. My understanding is it follows from the Woolf report, and in so far as the legislation will follow the Woolf report, I am quite sure that my colleagues will give it a very sympathetic welcome.
The noble and learned Lord also referred to the Police Bill which we are told is to start in this House shortly. As always, we are grateful for that and for what the noble and learned Lord tells us about the composition of the service authority which will run the National Criminal Intelligence Service and the National Crime Squad. He referred to the membership of that service authority. The noble and learned Lord will recall from the debates on the Police and Magistrates' Courts Bill that our concern has been to ensure that those authorities are not the creatures of the Home Secretary but genuinely reflect the needs of different localities and of the tripartite system which has always been in control of the policing of our country. If any lessons were to be learnt from the Police and Magistrates' Courts Act—I believe that we made considerable progress when debating the Bill—I hope that they will have been taken in the drafting of the Police Bill.
Now we must turn to the question of the stalkers Bill and the paedophile register. In opening the debate from these Benches, my noble friend Lord Richard said that perhaps it would have been different if the Government had approached the Labour Party at an earlier stage. I have to tell my noble friend that the Labour Party took the initiative on Tuesday morning, when it became apparent that it was not intended to include these Bills in the Government's programme, of writing to the Home Secretary saying that the Bills would have the support of the Opposition and urging that they be reinstated in the programme. Later on Tuesday, Jack Straw received a complete brush-off from the Home Secretary, who said that he believed that it would be quicker if the Bills were Private Members' Bills. I wonder what happened in the meantime. Was it a certain amount of public humiliation in the House of Commons yesterday afternoon which led to the change?
However, the Government even then do not seem to have learnt. I heard this morning on the "Today" programme that the Prime Minister thought that the issue was the support of the Opposition for the measures and he complained about the time it took for the social
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Security Service Bill to pass through Parliament last year. It was as if somehow the failure of the Government to maintain their legislative programme was the fault of the Opposition. I remind the Government that the delays which undoubtedly took place in the consideration of the Security Service Bill last year were entirely the result of decisions by the Government's business managers and not at all obstruction or delay by the Opposition or anyone else on any other than the government Benches. It took them three months to reach Second Reading. I kept pressing for dates for Second Reading, Committee, Report and Third Reading. On no occasion did we prolong the debate for more than one day. I hope that the Prime Minister will apologise, as he was asked to, for that slur on the work of the Opposition in this House.
I have a personal interest in the stalkers Bill because after the original stalkers Bill proposed by Janet Anderson was shouted down in another place, I initiated a Bill. I have already acknowledged and am grateful for the help from the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor. With it, I was able to restrict the Bill to making stalking a civil offence. I am glad that the Government have now found it possible to return a criminal element to the Bill and look forward to it, as I am sure we all do. I hope that it is as well drafted as my Bill was and that it goes through quickly.
On the paedophile register, of course, it is a paedophile register. I hope it is not a Bill to reflect some of the wider concerns of the White Paper that was introduced in May last year. Without in any way detracting from what the Leader of the Opposition said yesterday, all I can say is that the closer the Government stick to making it a Bill about a paedophile register and the more they eschew any wider content for it, the more likely it will go through without controversy and quickly, as we all wish.
On that subject, I wonder what happened to the sex tourism Bill to which the Home Secretary referred again at Bournemouth, only two weeks ago, as being a firm intention. If that were to come forward, many of us would support it. I am surprised not to see it in the Government's programme.
A number of noble Lords have spoken about guns and the proposed gun legislation. With all due respect to the noble Lords, Lord Monson and Lord Annaly, the general feeling in the country is not only that the rigorous gun control proposed by the Government is right but also that the differences between the Government and the Opposition on gun control are fewer than they were, for example, when the Home Office Select Committee prepared that unwise report.
Except on the issue of a total ban rather than what one might call the nine-tenths ban which the Government propose, I do not believe that there will be great difficulty in either House of Parliament getting the legislation properly on to the statute book, after of course due consideration by us as a revising Chamber, which is necessary.
I wonder what happened to the legislation on knives. Again, only two weeks ago in Bournemouth the Home Secretary referred to strict new laws governing knives.

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They do not seem to have appeared. Is that also to be in the form of a Private Member's Bill? The Labour Party has been pressing for a long time for greater control on knives which can be used for criminal offences.
Those are all what one might call second-rank issues in criminal justice and other areas. Then we come to what the noble Earl, Lord Russell, rightly calls the core of the Government's programme on this subject: the Crime (Sentences) Bill. We must consider it in light of the fact that crime in this country has doubled since 1979, although the number of convictions and cautions has fallen. In other words, dealing with crime has become worse while crime has increased. We must consider that the increase in this country has been faster than in any other major Western country and that criminals are now three times more likely to get away with crimes than in 1980. It is no good the Government continuing to pretend, as they do, that the Labour Party has been soft on crime. I only choose a few examples but, after all, in 1988 we proposed a ban on the sale of guns to under 16 year-olds. It was resisted. In 1994 we proposed much tougher gun licences; that was resisted by the Government. In 1996 in both Chambers we proposed laws on stalking which the Government were not prepared to accept. In 1996 we proposed protection for victims of rape. Above all, and not just in parliamentary terms, we have understood better the relationship between crime and the causes of crime. The eloquent speech by my noble friend Lord Murray of Epping Forest made that clear. We are the ones who have been talking about reform of youth justice; we are the ones who have been talking about tightening up on successive cautions. We are the ones who have been making real attempts to understand issues of public disorder which are so closely related to crime.
Jack Straw said earlier this year that poverty and lack of opportunity caused crime, but crime and disorder worsened poverty and reduced opportunity even further. That is the basis for our concerns about crime policy in this country, even though we recognise the difficulty of producing legislation to deal with illegal acts. It is not a simple relationship.
When I turn to the Crime (Sentences) Bill, I am constrained in what I say because the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner, quoted at length what I said last year. So I have nowhere to hide. I shall not "backslide" on the view that I took then and that I took in the debate on 23rd May. It was that the minimum sentences which are proposed and which were put forward in the White Paper for drug dealing and burglary are a nonsense. They are not evidence of new tough action; they are evidence of gesture politics rather than a real determination to deal with the problems. It is not just that they take away the discretion of judges to make decisions on individual cases. That is serious enough. But it is much more serious that, as the White Paper recognises, they will involve the establishment of at least 12 new prisons and 10,000 new prisoners. That cannot be done before the end of this century and certainly not in the context of a funding cut of 13 per cent. for the Prison Service, even with its present numbers. The noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, made that clear.
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There is an unavoidable conflict between the budgetary cuts on the Prison Service and the work that the Prison Service is required to do. That conflict points up the inadequacy of the slogan, "Prison Works". Yes, in a very limited sense prison can work. But if there is no rehabilitation in prison, if there is no education and no useful work, and if as a result prisoners, however long they have been in prison, leave to commit more offences, then prison does not work.
My noble friend Lord Richard in opening the debate talked more generally than most noble Lords about what should be in the Queen's Speech and what should be our priorities. I regret that the Government's policies as expressed in the gracious Speech have fallen so far short of the vision which my noble friend gave us.
8 p.m.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Blatch): My Lords, I begin by thanking my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor for the eloquent way in which he introduced the debate. I join with him in congratulating my noble friends Lord Gray of Contin and Lord Colwyn on their excellent speeches in response to and in support of the gracious Speech.
Time is always the enemy. I will attempt to cover some of the points raised on the widest variety of subjects in this traditional and characteristically interesting debate, as is the custom of this House. In keeping with tradition, I will write to those noble Lords whose points I do not address.
The noble Lord, Lord Richard, opened with a damning indictment of the state of the nation. He posed the question rhetorically: is the country more at ease with itself now than it was in 1979? The noble Lord went on, as is characteristic of noble Lords opposite, to run down the state of the nation, and suggested that all was peace and prosperity in 1979.
I can only suggest to the noble Lord that he has had a serious bout of amnesia. In 1979, Britain's reputation abroad was at rock bottom. We were commonly known as the "sick man of Europe". Industrial strife was at epidemic proportions; dead bodies lay unburied; streets were piled high with rubbish; public services were in disarray; and we were shamefully brought to book by the IMF.
The situation is vastly different today. We have only to read what the IMF says about the United Kingdom, what the OECD says, or what our European neighbours have to say about the United Kingdom when accepting that our economy, our falling unemployment, our record of economic regeneration and our inward investment is outstripping theirs. The basic rate of tax is the lowest for 50 years. The top rate of tax has been reduced from 83 per cent. to 40 per cent. This positive picture of the United Kingdom will be addressed in more detail by my noble friends on these Benches when we come to the final speeches on the gracious Speech.
Talking this country down, as is done with regular monotony by the Labour Party leaders in this and in another place, is extremely damaging to this country.

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Praying in aid the state of this country in 1979 as some past haven of peace is the stuff of fantasy and strange imaginings.
The noble Lord, Lord Richard, raised the issue of Section 13 of the Defamation Act 1996. The amendment that is now Section 13 was fully debated. One point that was repeatedly made was that the provision was to help any Member of this House or another place who had been defamed and who might otherwise be prevented from protecting his or her reputation by pursuing legal remedy. The new provisions assist any Members of this House or of another place to defend their reputation in the courts. Why should they not be able to do so to the same extent as any other member of the public? The Government have undertaken to co-operate fully in Sir Gordon Downey's inquiry and the work of the Select Committee in another place. That illustrates the Government's determination to preserve the integrity of Parliament. And no one is more determined to uphold the integrity of Parliament than my right honourable friend the Prime Minister.
Much was said about the crime Bill. I shall take the points as they came; many noble Lords referred to it. The crime Bill will contain radical new proposals on sentencing targeted at the most serious, dangerous and persistent offenders. The proposals mean that anyone convicted for a second time of a serious violent and/or sexual offence will receive an automatic life sentence unless there are exceptional circumstances. There will be stiff minimum prison sentences for persistent domestic burglars and dealers in hard drugs—a point which the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, believes is simply gesture politics. The public rightly expects protection from such offenders. The proposals in the White Paper are designed to provide that protection.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner, referred to two points of view as to what motivated my right honourable friend the Home Secretary: on the one hand playing politics, if I might coin the phrase to interpret what he said, and, on the other hand, sincerely addressing real issues as the Home Secretary sees them. I am in no doubt. I take the latter view. My right honourable friend is indeed addressing the serious issues as he sees them.
The noble and learned Lord suggested that the sentencing proposal set out in the crime Bill would compromise judicial independence. I assure the House that there is no question of encroaching upon judicial independence. It is for Parliament to set the statutory framework for sentencing and for the judges to exercise their discretion within that framework. Nor is there anything new about mandatory sentences. The life sentence for murder, and disqualification for certain driving offences, are long-standing examples of just that.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner, also suggested that the proposals for mandatory sentences would lead to injustices and wrongful acquittals. I am happy to confirm that the court will have directions not to impose a mandatory sentence in exceptional cases.
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The Bill will also contain provisions to enable the court to reduce minimum sentences to take account of timely guilty pleas. There will—
Lord Ackner: My Lords, will the noble Baroness confirm that a judge will have the opportunity not to apply a mandatory life sentence or the minimum sentence if he is satisfied that to do so would result in an injustice?
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, the noble and learned Lord will have to be patient and wait for the Bill. So long as it is consistent with the exceptional circumstances as defined by this House and another place, then of course it will be at the discretion of the court.
My noble friend Lord Windlesham and others suggested that the mandatory sentence for drug trafficking offenders would catch minor offenders. I have to disagree with that point. Simple possession will not attract a mandatory penalty. It is targeted at persistent dealers in hard class A drugs such as cocaine, heroin and Ecstasy. If it catches naïve dealers, well and good. They cannot say that they were not warned. In the most serious cases the courts could impose a higher penalty than the mandatory minimum up to maximum life imprisonment.
My noble friend Lord Carlisle made the point that, because of the abolition of parole, there would be less time spent supervising post-custodial sentence prisoners. That is simply wrong. For example, a person serving a prison sentence today who applies for parole and is refused is automatically released at a pre-determined point in the sentence with no supervision at all; whereas under the proposals release will be earned, and will take place only on the basis of being earned; post-supervision, and in some cases extended post-supervision, will apply to all sentences over one year.
The noble Earl, Lord Mar and Kellie, asked how the changes in early release arrangements would represent an improvement. I believe that honesty in sentencing is the best way forward. It means that the sentence offenders actually serve will match much more closely the sentence imposed by the court. At present, it does not. That enrages victims and undermines public confidence in the criminal justice system. Under our proposal the public and offenders themselves will know that the court sentence means what it says. Our proposals will also ensure that in future post-release supervision will be targeted on the most serious offenders because the longer the original sentence, the longer the period of supervision.
The noble Earl also asked about the purpose of the new hospital directive for mentally disordered offenders. It is designed for sentencing offenders who have committed serious offences and require immediate hospital treatment for mental disorder where a hospital and restriction order under the Mental Health Act 1983 would not be appropriate. That might be because the offender bore a significant degree of responsibility for

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his actions, requiring a sentence with a punitive element or because the risks posed by the offender are not directly linked to his mental condition.
Let me make some general points about the sentencing Bill. First, the life sentence is flexible. Judges themselves will be able to set the tariff, not the Home Secretary, to reflect the seriousness of the offence. It is sensible to assess risk at point of release rather than at point of sentence. There is nothing to prevent judges passing life sentences on first conviction in appropriate cases. Judges will continue to have discretion to set tariffs based on the circumstances of the particular case and in genuinely exceptional circumstances they will be able to set aside altogether the automatic life sentence and to avoid injustice.
A major concern mentioned was mandatory minimum sentences for burglars and drug dealers. Again, as I said, exceptional circumstances will mean that there will be a means for avoiding genuine injustice. I know that that is a point of concern to many noble Lords. That will come clear as we see the details of the Bill.
My noble friend Lord Carlisle raised an interesting point. He asked how the Government would ensure that the courts took account of the changes in early release arrangements 'in passing sentence. The Bill will contain explicit provisions requiring the court to do so.
My noble friend also asked whether we would publish the responses that we received to the White Paper, Protecting the Public. We received some 300 responses from organisations and individuals. Many are substantial documents. It is a matter for those who have responded to publish and/or make them available if they wish. We intend to announce the number of responses received and give an indication of the points and criticisms that were made.
The noble Lord, Lord Richard, raised the whole issue of devolution. He was joined by many other noble Lords later in the debate. The Government are unequivocally committed to the Union. We believe that the present arrangements whereby Scotland and Wales enjoy the advantages of full representation at Westminster and a Secretary of State with a seat at the Cabinet table are to the best advantage not only of the people of Scotland and Wales but of the whole of the United Kingdom. But that does not mean that the Government refuse to contemplate change; for example, the new arrangements for the Scottish Grand Committee and changes which ensure more discussion of Welsh business in Parliament.
On the same subject, I understand from what the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, said that there are two questions to be posed. However, what is not being offered to the people of Scotland is a vote on the detail of any proposals. They will be asked straight questions. The planned question will be posed before they see the details of the Bills and before they are placed before Parliament. As my noble friend Lady Carnegy pointed out to me, as she listened to the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, she noted that there was absolutely no mention whatsoever of financial arrangements, which we all know to be extremely costly and rather embarrassing to talk about in public. A partly appointed, gender balanced, possibly with party placemen and indeed
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women, single Chamber with the loss of serious consideration by your Lordships is the most divisive, disruptive and unworkable proposition. As for the debate in the Conservative Party round about 1979, to which the noble Lord referred, we looked at the proposal, knew that it was unworkable, and turned our face against it.
The noble Earl, Lord Mar and Kellie, suggested that the Grand Committee system was undemocratic. All the participants are directly elected Members of Parliament, elected by their public, calling to account in public Ministers of the Crown. What is undemocratic about that?
While still on the subject of devolution, steps have already been taken by the Secretary of State to increase the role of the Scottish Grand Committee. The Opposition's proposals for devolution, which are clearly dictated from London, threaten the integrity of the Union. They give rise to setting Scottish Assembly against Westminster Parliament, setting Scottish executive against the UK Government; conflicts between Scottish executive and the Treasury; and Scottish taxpayers having to pay higher taxes than their friends in the other parts of the United Kingdom, not to mention the West Lothian question. How does that add to the cohesion and integrity of the United Kingdom?
Finally, I refer to my noble friend Lord Campbell of Croy, who took us painstakingly through the history of this subject in the most enlightening way. I cannot add to the forceful case that he put in demolishing the Opposition's proposals for devolution.
I turn to Dunblane and the gun Bill which was mentioned in the gracious Speech. First, our position is clear. All high calibre handguns will be banned and .22 calibre hand guns will be banned from homes but may be stored at clubs which will meet stringent safety standards of security. The only exceptions will be for certain occupational users such as vets. Lord Cullen includes a table in his report in paragraph 9.49 which demonstrates that .22 rimfire cartridges are four to six times less powerful than a typical large calibre handgun. Cartridges of the higher calibre handguns can be modified to produce even higher and most devastating power. This is not technically possible with .22 rimfire cartridges. All higher calibre handguns will become prohibited. In practice banning .22 multi-shot handguns would destroy the sport of target pistol shooting. We estimate that currently there are fewer than 2,000 people who shoot with single shot handguns. It is an Olympic sport which has been taking place since 1896.
On the subject of compensation, the details will come before the House. We shall compensate both owners and dealers. We shall compensate the full market value of prohibited guns and we shall publish details of the scheme very soon. Our approach will give this country some of the strictest gun control laws in the world. The country expects nothing less.
The noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, asked what happened to the review of the relationship between the Home Office and the Prison Service recommended in the report by Sir John Learmont and he referred to Miss Kate Jenkins. Miss Jenkins did some initial work on that

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recommendation and—I have said this to the noble Lord across the Dispatch Box—it was taken forward in discussions between Home Office and Prison Service officials, but no in-depth study or review, as recommended by Sir John Learmont, has been undertaken. That was reported by my honourable friend the Minister of State, Ann Widdecombe, in another place on 14th March. The Prison Service is making good progress in implementing other recommendations in Sir John Learmont's report. Details were placed in the Library on 24th July and my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has undertaken to report to Parliament on the outstanding recommendations in due course. That will be done.
The noble Lord asked about the consequences of the crime Bill for the prison population. We estimate that the sentencing proposals taken together will eventually result in an estimated increase of around 11,000 people in the prison population. That will build up gradually, reaching a peak some 12 years after implementation. We plan to accommodate that increase by building a number of new prisons and providing additional places at existing prisons. The new prisons will be funded through the private finance initiative and the cost will reach an estimated peak of between £375 million and £425 million per annum some 12 years after implementation.
Earl Russell: My Lords—
Baroness Blatch: Perhaps the noble Earl will forgive me but there will be plenty of opportunity to discuss what I have said in the course of this debate. I am trying to cover many of the points raised in the debate.
To put the figures in context, we have already built 22 new prisons and provided nearly 20,000 additional prison places since 1979. A prison building programme sufficient to accommodate the new sentencing proposals is, therefore, realistic and achievable.
The noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, referred to stalking. We welcome what he said about that. I also say to the noble Earl, Lord Russell, that the Bill will afford protection to men as well as women.
The noble Lord, Lord Murray, referred to the very important point of juvenile offenders. He suggested that young people who have been in custody offend at a greater rate than those serving community sentences. Many young people who reoffend following custodial sentences are young people who have been cautioned, served probation sentences and other community sentences. It is unlikely—the noble Lord is or has been a magistrate and will know—that young juveniles are sent to prison for a first or second offence unless it is an extremely serious offence and deemed appropriate by the courts.
The point is important. Last year the Government set up an inter-departmental group to examine ways to identify children most at risk of becoming offenders and take action to divert them from criminality at as early an age as possible. The group concluded that while many examples of good practice exist throughout the country,
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more could be done to adopt a systematic approach to preventing children from becoming offenders. We therefore intend to publish a Green Paper in the autumn setting out a new strategy for identifying and taking action to deal with children at risk of becoming offenders.
The vetting and supervision of adults working with children and young people was also raised by the noble Earl, Lord Mar and Kellie. The Government decided that following proposals in the consultation document On the Record in Scotland, published in June, access to criminal records checks will be extended to all voluntary youth organisations. Consultation will also take place with all interested parties in Scotland, and of course in England and Wales, on proposals for a national information and accreditation system. That was in response to the Cullen Report.
My noble friend Lady Seccombe, in her supportive speech, referred to the National Crime Squad. It is right that the National Crime Squad will not compromise local policing. Members of the public will still report crime to their local police force. The National Crime Squad will support police forces in the investigation of serious crime at the request of the force's chief constable. The Criminal Records Agency was also referred to by the noble Earl. The agency will provide improved access to criminal records for employment-related purposes. I should point out that it is a separate measure from Lord Cullen's proposals for an accreditation scheme.
The noble Lord, Lord Balfour, made a forceful speech about the quality of the arts. I should like to come back to him on that. He also talked amusingly, but seriously, about "PC" and the way it dogs our lives. I can only say that when I was in local government and my authority became a hung council—or, as I preferred to call it, an "unhinged" council—I could not be leader of the council because it was deemed to be hierarchical. I therefore became an equal member of an egalitarian triumvirate; the chairman became "chairperson" and subsequently "chair". Even that was deemed hierarchical so that gave way to "spokesman", "spokesperson" and then to "spoke". I dislike the term "Ms"; I prefer Miss or Mrs or the use of a Christian or surname. And I share much of what the noble Lord said in regard to reform of this great place. Hasty change by a one or two clause Bill is no way to approach such serious reform.
We are all concerned about the point raised by my noble friend Lord Halsbury that he will be raising also in his Private Member's Bill. I should like to see the Bill and consider it in detail. However, at the moment we sympathise and empathise with his point in relation to there being too much pornography too freely available in our community.
I am always pleased to talk with my noble friend Lord Marlesford about his ideas for the future and I promise to talk with him in some detail about the points he raised.
I must refer to Northern Ireland because my noble friend Lady Park referred to that important issue. The Government wish to see all illegally-held weapons removed from circulation. The multi-party talks are at

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present addressing that question. No agreement has yet been reached. However, we are determined that the process should not be held up because of the absence of the necessary statutory framework and the Bill announced by the Prime Minister yesterday will be introduced in the autumn. The multi-party talks proceed. In principle we believe that they will benefit from being as inclusive as possible. But their success does not depend on Sinn Fein being there. Both British and Irish Governments have committed themselves to proceed wholeheartedly with the talks, whether or not Sinn Fein is at the table.
My noble friend mentioned Articles 2 and 3 of the Irish Constitution, embodying the so-called claim on Northern Ireland. As my noble friend said, the Irish Government have committed themselves to amending their constitution so as to remove any such claim in the context of a settlement. What is most significant is that all major political parties in Ireland—North and South—are now committed to the principle that consent would be needed to a change in the constitutional status of Northern Ireland.
If the noble Lord, Lord Rea, will forgive me, I shall come back to him in detail. Suffice to say that our proposals respond to the views expressed by healthcare professionals and NHS management. They aim to improve services for patients with better targeting of local needs. There will be safeguards for patients including the retention of the right to be registered with a GP of one's choice.
The noble Earl, Lord Russell, referred to Hillingdon and to the judgment of Lord Justice Collins, against which we are appealing. I should therefore like to write to him in relation to those points. Measures being brought forward in the fraud Bill are designed to improve the powers to prevent, detect and deter fraud with a focus on landlords and serious fraudsters, as benefit fraud is estimated to cost £4 billion a year. The details of the Bill will be discussed in due course.
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The noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, referred to what my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said on the radio this morning. I listened to him carefully and have since looked at the transcript. First, it is a matter of fact that major Bills take longer in Parliament than other Bills. They are complex and from time to time there will be attempts to amend them. There is limited time in this Parliament, as everyone knows. Of its nature the crime Bill will take longer to proceed through Parliament for those reasons. There was no question whatever of accusing the Labour Party of obstruction on the Security Service Bill. The truth is that one Bill took around seven months. We do not have seven months left in this Parliament and that was the reason for the comment. No offence was meant to the Labour Party.
In conclusion, as your Lordships know, time for this Session of Parliament is limited. We have a substantial, responsive and effective programme of legislation before us designed not to play politics but because we believe it is the right thing to do: effective punishment, protection of the public, the tackling of organised crime, tightening controls to prevent undesirable people from working with children, the strengthening of supervision of sex offenders in the community and more. It is not gesture politics. It is a real response to real problems in the community. The Opposition may feel that it is just playing politics; we believe that those issues are important and we shall not be deterred from our programme.
Whatever the views we hold in this House, I am confident that there will be lively, and I suspect at times tense, but always courteous debate in this House. I look forward to engaging in those discussions.
Viscount Long: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lady Chalker of Wallasey I beg to move that the debate be adjourned until Monday next.
Moved, That the debate be adjourned until Monday next.—(Viscount Long.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and debate adjourned accordingly until Monday next.
House adjourned at twenty-nine minutes past eight o'clock.

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