Sitting of 3 December 1996

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS

  KING'S COLLEGE LONDON BILL [LORDS]
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That the Promoters of the King's College London Bill [Lords] may, notwithstanding anything in the Standing Orders or practice of this House, proceed with the Bill in the present Session; and the Petition for the Bill shall be deemed to have been deposited and all Standing Orders applicable thereto shall be deemed to have been complied with;
  That if the Bill is brought from the Lords in the present Session, the Agents for the Bill shall deposit in the Private Bill Office a declaration signed by them stating that the Bill is the same, in every respect, as the Bill which was brought from the Lords in the last Session;
  That, as soon as a certificate by one of the Clerks in the Private Bill Office, that such a declaration has been so deposited, has been laid upon the Table of the House, the Bill shall be read the first and second time (and shall be recorded in the Journal of this House as having been so read) and shall be ordered to be read the third time;
  That no further Fees shall be charged in respect of any proceedings on the Bill in respect of which Fees have already been incurred during any previous Session.—[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]
  Hon. Members: Object.
  Debate to be resumed on Tuesday 10 December.

Oral Answers to Questions
  HEALTH

    Capitation Funding
    Mr. Whittingdale: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what progress has been made towards full capitation funding of district health authorities; and if he will make a statement. [5611]
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Mr. John Horam): The health authority revenue allocations announced last Thursday show that in 1997–98, the next financial year, considerable progress will be made towards that goal.
    Mr. Whittingdale: Is my hon. Friend aware that North Essex and South Essex health authorities are further away from their capitation target than any other health authority in the country? I thank him for recognising that by announcing an increase of 2.6 per cent. in real terms in this year's settlement, but is he aware that that will still leave North Essex some £14 million short of its capitation target? That is likely to cause real difficulties. Can he therefore give me an assurance that, in future years, he will concentrate on giving extra resources to authorities that remain below their capitation target?
    Mr. Horam: I am sure that it is not a great comfort to my hon. Friend to know that there is another health authority worse even than North Essex in terms of its distance from the capitation target. None the less, he will be aware that, in this settlement, we have achieved another £16 million towards a total of £370 million for North Essex, which brings it to 3.77 per cent. below its capitation target. I certainly give him the assurance that we will continue to make progress in that direction. Indeed, given what the Prime Minister and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health have said about real resources over the next few years, if another Conservative Government are elected, we will certainly make progress towards that end.
    Ms Coffey: If the Minister is introducing a more equitable distribution of resources to health authorities, why is he introducing a challenge fund for the care of the elderly? Is it not a fact that all that will happen is that money will go to the best bidder and not necessarily to those with the most need? Is that not just another example of the Government's lottery of care for the elderly?
    Mr. Horam: I am glad to be able to tell the hon. Lady that, as a result of the fairly small changes to the capitation formula, which we will incorporate in next year's figures, no less than 86 per cent. of total capitation funding will be related to needs.
    Mr. John Greenway: Does my hon. Friend agree that hospital trusts operate within a number of former health districts that still receive below the national average for health funding? In particular, and as my hon. Friend knows, Scarborough district and Scarborough and North East Yorkshire Healthcare NHS trust have a deficit. Can my hon. Friend reassure me and my many constituents,

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    and those of my hon. Friend the Member for Scarborough (Mr. Sykes)—[HON. MEMBERS: "Where is he?"]—that their needs will be met from the enormous increase in funding of £1.6 billion, which the Government announced last week?
    Mr. Horam: Perhaps I can reassure my hon. Friends inside and outside the Chamber that, as a result of my right hon. Friend's decisions, North Yorkshire is now only 0.5 per cent. away from the target funding. I am sure that we will eliminate that shortfall in the next year of a Conservative Government.

    Hospital Deficits
    Mr. Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will make a statement on NHS hospital deficits last year. [5610]
    The Minister for Health (Mr. Gerald Malone): Financial information for 1995–96 will be available later this month, following analysis and validation of the trust audited annual accounts by the national health service executive.
    Mr. Bayley: Does the Minister recall that the most recently published NHS accounts listed 13 NHS trusts in non-technical deficit and said that the NHS executive would take action to remedy those deficits? Is he further aware that, of those 13 trusts, 11 were still in deficit the following year and that the aggregate deficit had gone up from £10 million to £20 million? Is that not an indication that the internal market is putting trusts into deficit? What action does he intend to take to stop the closure of more trusts such as the Anglia Harbours NHS trust?
    Mr. Malone: I recognise from the question an article that appeared in a newspaper close to the hon. Gentleman's constituency setting out his concerns, which I do not regard as justified. His concern is that those trusts that have a deficit cannot manage their way out of it.
    In 1994–95, 16 trusts recorded real retained deficits; 10 of them remained in real deficit in 1995–96 and five forecast deficits in 1996–97, so the point that the hon. Gentleman tries to make is wrong. He would do better to remember his own advice, which is that if he wants to do something about all that, he should encourage those on his Front Bench to increase spending in the health service in real terms, as the Government have done. The hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Smith) tried this morning, but palpably failed.
    Mrs. Roe: Does my hon. Friend agree that the Secretary of State's announcement of £23 billion for health authorities last year may go some way to deal with a projected deficit slightly in excess of £100 million?
    Mr. Malone: My hon. Friend is right. I repeat what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said when he was questioned in the health debate last week about first quarter returns for trusts: there is an estimated surplus this year of about £60 million. That proves, as my hon. Friend suggests, that this is a well-managed service with an increasing resource that has been given by the Government.
    Rev. Martin Smyth: There has always been pressure on finance in the health service. In the past, a balance was
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    always achieved. What is the difficulty now? Is the fact that some health authorities are now recording deficits the result of bad management or of someone trying to get ahead of someone else?
    Mr. Malone: The hon. Gentleman is right to point to the fact that, over time, trust accounts must be balanced. That is happening. Trusts are obliged to balance their accounts on a following year basis. Trusts that have difficulty have made enormous progress towards eliminating deficits over time. That is precisely what we expect health authorities, which are purchasers, and trusts, which are providers, to do—and it is made all the easier because, this year, every health authority has been given increased spending in real terms.

    NHS Spending
    Mr. Pawsey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what is the current level of spending on the national health service; and what it was in (a) 1979 and (b) 1989 in real terms. [5612]
    The Secretary of State for Health (Mr. Stephen Dorrell): National health service total net expenditure in England is planned to be £34.4 billion in 1997–98. At constant prices, the equivalent expenditure in 1978–79 was £19.6 billion, and in 1988–89 was £26.5 billion.
    Mr. Pawsey: I thank my right hon. Friend for that very revealing reply, which emphasises, as nothing else would, the Government's continuing commitment to the nation's health. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the evidence for that increase in spending can be found in every trust hospital and every fundholder's surgery and is experienced by every member of the public who goes for treatment?
    Mr. Dorrell: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Those figures represent a 30 per cent. real terms increase since 1990—an increase of three quarters since 1979. Most important for the future is the Prime Minister's commitment to year on year on year on year on year real terms increases in NHS spending. In this morning's Daily Mirror, the hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Smith) wrote an article. He said:
    "Labour will match the Tories' plan for funding the NHS—we are very serious about that"—
    so serious that they will match it for year one. What about year two, year three, year four and year five of the next Parliament?
    Mr. Simon Hughes: I believe that everyone will welcome what is a relatively generous settlement for the coming year, which has been secured by the Secretary of State and by the Government. The Secretary of State is correct to say that, even after this morning's speech by the hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Smith), the Government's financial commitment is considerably greater than the Labour party's.
    If the Government are so committed, why is there not a similar commitment for the following years, which, according to the Chancellor's announcement, do not show any continuing real growth? Is not the truth that the

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    Government are still always tempted to give tax cuts, such as those that they will vote through tonight, which only Liberal Democrat Members continue to oppose?
    Mr. Dorrell: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his recognition of a "relatively generous settlement", as he called it, for next year but, with respect, he is wrong about future years. The Red Book shows a real-terms increase, to which we are pledged, for national health service expenditure in year 2 and year 3. The Labour party refuses to give such a pledge. The hon. Gentleman was too generous to the shadow health spokesman, whose pledge for next year is not to volunteer back to the Treasury health money that this Government have committed to the NHS.
    Mr. Dunn: Can my right hon. Friend confirm that the Government's commitment to the national health service allows the people of Dartford—
    Mr. Jacques Arnold: And Gravesham.
    Mr. Dunn:—to look forward to the construction of a new district general hospital early in the new year? Will he accept my thanks and pass them on to his Ministers and other colleagues who have worked so hard to bring about that result?
    Mr. Dorrell: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I was as pleased as he was by the health authority's decision last Thursday. If and when the hospital is built, as we intend that it should be, I am sure that it will benefit the citizens of both Dartford and Gravesham. I look forward to the day.
    Mr. Chris Smith: Will the Secretary of State confirm, first, that he has cut capital spending on the health service by one third in the current year and next year and, secondly, that page 124 of the Red Book, which presents the control totals in real-terms figures, shows that, between 1998 and 1999, there is to be no real-terms increase in planned spending on the health service? Does not that show that the Chancellor has already torn up the promise given by the Prime Minister at the Tory party conference?
    Mr. Dorrell: The hon. Gentleman is wrong on both counts. The Red Book makes it clear that the cash plans for the health service in year three are increasing faster than the GDP deflator. [HON. MEMBERS: "Real terms."] We plan for the health service in cash spending, as the hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Smith) is also committed to do. The cash spending for the health service in year three increases faster than inflation. Hon. Gentlemen might misunderstand me. Faster than inflation means real-terms growth. That is what the Government are committed to, what they have delivered for 18 years and what this Conservative Government will deliver in the next Parliament. The hon. Gentleman has only to wait and see.
    Mr. Duncan Smith: Does my right hon. Friend agree that, notwithstanding the increase in the figures, one of the key points is the way that the service is delivered? It is more efficiently delivered now, so the pounds spent are spent on more people. I am particularly concerned about fundholding practices. The Opposition's position on
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    fundholding is oblique. Will my right hon. Friend make it clear to the House that we seek to increase the number of fundholders, because fundholding has worked?
    Mr. Dorrell: My hon. Friend is right to say that fundholding has worked. It is the option that has been chosen by almost 60 per cent. of GPs in England—because they believe that it is in the interests of their NHS patients that they should be come fundholders. My hon. Friend was wrong about the hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury. The hon. Gentleman made it crystal clear this morning that he intends to abolish fundholding—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Hear, hear, Opposition Members say. If they really cared about health service patients, they would take the hon. Gentleman to one side and ask him why he intends, if he is ever given the chance, to deny to GPs working in the health service the option that they think is in the best interests of their patients. That is what the hon. Gentleman announced this morning: he does not care about NHS patients.

    Market Testing
    Mr. Purchase: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many NHS services have been market tested. [5613]
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Mr. Simon Burns): The national health service executive market testing database has evidence of 86 services that have been market tested or are planned to be market tested.
    Mr. Purchase: Does the Minister recognise that the entire exercise has been characterised by a reduction in services throughout the NHS? In my constituency, an organisation called Trident, which was formerly known as Hospital Services, had to change its name to gain new contracts—hon. Members may speculate about why that was necessary. The contract is failing to deliver promised savings and there has been an attempt to reduce the number of hours worked by people in the service. A constituent who works as a cleaner with the Wolverhampton health service has been forced to clean using water with no additives. Does the Minister believe that market testing is justified in those circumstances?
    Mr. Burns: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman utterly misunderstands the purpose and benefits of market testing. He fails to see that market testing is improving standards, particularly in laundry and other hotel services. By enhancing standards, market testing is saving the health service between £100 million and £150 million, which is then used to provide extra health care for patients. The hon. Gentleman should support that initiative. In addition, the trust that has taken out the contract is more than happy with the service being provided. I suggest that the hon. Gentleman gets a better briefing from UNISON, which seems to be misleading him.
    Mr. David Shaw: How much has market testing saved us in terms of additional operations in the health service? Have not efficiency savings led to a considerable increase in the number of patients who are treated through the health service?
    Mr. Burns: I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend, who puts his finger on the most important issue. Market

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    testing is resulting in improved services and, since it began in 1983, it has saved the health service about £1 billion—about £100 million to £150 million a year. That means more hip and cataract operations and more acute service provision in the health service.

    Total Purchasing Initiative
    Mr. Congdon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many general practitioners have expressed an interest in the Government's total purchasing initiative. [5614]
    Mr. Malone: There are 82 national total purchasing pilots comprising 322 practices. We understand that many other sites have expressed interest in such pilots. We will consider how to respond to this in the light of the National Health Service (Primary Care) Bill, which is currently before Parliament.
    Mr. Congdon: I warmly welcome the growth in fundholding, and its extension via the total purchasing initiative, which is popular with GPs and patients. Given the success of fundholding, does my hon. Friend agree that it would be quite wrong to abolish it, as is proposed by the shadow health spokesman?
    Mr. Malone: My hon. Friend is right. At least we have an end to the equivocation about replacing or evolving fundholding: we now know that the Labour party would abolish it. The advantages that have accrued to patients and to general practitioners from total purchasing pilots would be lost if the Opposition had their way. Unlike fundholding under this Government—which is a voluntary principle carried forward in the National Health Service (Primary Care) Bill before the House—Labour would force general practitioners into commissioning groups. It would become chain-gang commissioning, which is anathema to this side of the House.

    Community Health Councils
    Mr. Pike: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what representations his Department has received regarding possible changes in the role and functions of community health councils. [5615]
    Mr. Horam: I have received a number of representations regarding the role and functions of community health councils, in connection with the report on the resourcing and performance management of community health councils, which will be published shortly, inviting comments.
    I assure the hon. Gentleman that we value the role played by CHCs, as independent statutory bodies, and have no intention of changing either their role or their functions.
    Mr. Pike: Is it true that the performance of CHCs will be reviewed? If so, who will conduct the review and how will that be done? Is it not essential that CHCs continue to be the patients' representatives in the national health service?
    Mr. Horam: I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman's assertion that CHCs should continue to be the patients'
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    representatives and put patients' complaints fairly and squarely to the relevant authorities. The review has been completed, and I shall publish the results shortly. There will then be a period of consultation when all can make their views plain on the contents of the report. I should add that the Association of Community Health Councils for England and Wales was represented on the steering committee of the review, and helped to choose the consultants who undertook that review.
    Mr. Rowe: Does my hon. Friend accept that one of the functions of CHCs is to help patients to make complaints? One of my local provider trusts sent out 35,000 invitations to households to attend its annual meeting. Only one patient and his wife attended. Does not that suggest that, contrary to the stories peddled by the Labour party, satisfaction with the way in which the national health service is working is very high?
    Mr. Horam: Indeed it is. As my hon. Friend will be aware, the settlement, particularly as regards Kent, is another feather in the cap of my right hon. Friend, who has fought continuously for extra funds for the national health service.

    NHS Operations
    Mr. Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will make a statement on the number of people currently waiting for NHS operations. [5616]
    Mr. Dorrell: Half of all admissions to hospital are immediate. The latest available provisional figures, for 30 September, show that 1,060,150 people were waiting for admission. Of people waiting for admission, four out of 10 will be admitted within one month, half within six weeks and more than two thirds within three months. Fifteen thousand people—one in 70—were waiting longer than 12 months.
    Mr. Hanson: Will the Secretary of State take this opportunity to welcome the Labour party's pledge to reduce the number of people on waiting lists—particularly for cancer operations—by 100,000? Will he recognise that that will benefit many of my constituents in north Wales, for which he is not responsible, and those who use Clatterbridge hospital in the Wirral? Will he take the opportunity today to recognise the pledge and support it in the House?
    Mr. Dorrell: I do not support the pledge, because everyone who works in the health service knows that what the shadow health spokesman said at the Labour party conference is nonsense. To talk about a waiting list for cancer surgery is to talk about a waiting list that does not exist, and when the Labour party, which voted against the abolition of regional health authorities, talks about £100 million of administrative savings, it convinces nobody. The Government have delivered 25,000 more doctors and 55,000 more nurses to the NHS since 1979. That is why we are treating more patients. We have also cut the average waiting time for waiting list patients from nine months to four months. That is the reality of the Government's record on waiting lists.
    Mr. Garnier: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the three major acute hospitals in Leicester, which serve

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    his and my constituents, are doing very well at reducing waiting times for patients of all categories? Will he further use this opportunity to scotch the scare stories put around by Labour politicians in and around the city of Leicester that the three major acute hospitals are bound to be reduced to two because of a shortage of cash in the national health service? Will he confirm that there will be three hospitals in the city so long as it is necessary to have them and that, if the number does go down to two, patient care and waiting times will be very much to the forefront of his mind?
    Mr. Dorrell: As every Leicestershire Member of Parliament knows—including Labour Members of Parliament in Leicestershire—because we have been told by Leicestershire health authority, there is no proposal to reduce the number of acute hospitals in the city of Leicester. It is blatant scaremongering to suggest otherwise. What is going on is a review of acute service provision in Leicestershire to ensure that we deliver the most effective and efficient health care that we can to the people of Leicestershire. That, I hope, is supported by hon. Members on both sides of the House.
    Mr. Barron: My constituent, Mrs. Walker, who lives in Brinsworth, is 85 years of age. She was told in October that she will have to wait until 17 March 1998 for a hip operation at Rotherham General Hospitals NHS trust. Her surgeon told her that
    "due to severe financial constraints"
    he is allowed to perform only two operations a week. The hospital told me that it is
    "currently exceeding the number of orthopaedic operations for which it is funded".
    Is that not a direct consequence of the introduction of the internal market? We all know that the internal market uses hundreds of millions of pounds ever year on bureaucracy. Why does my constituent have to wait until 1998, in pain, for a hip replacement when the hospital, the surgeon and other health professionals are there? The only thing that is stopping it happening is the internal market that the Tories have introduced.
    Mr. Dorrell: That is the politics of Jennifer's ear. Labour really is bankrupt on health. Now the hon. Gentleman leaps to the Dispatch Box to take up a constituency case. If he writes to me, I will take it up.
    Mr. Harry Greenway: May I welcome the progress being made towards the provision of more single-sex wards in hospitals? Will the national health service, in principle, seek to make a single-sex ward available to any patient who asks for one?
    Mr. Dorrell: As my hon. Friend knows, we have set out clearly the health service's commitment to move towards single sex provision. It is in the patients charter. It is a clear requirement of the management of the health service to deliver the patients charter. We have monitored that requirement, and we shall continue to do so. I assure my hon. Friend that that is an important priority of the management of the health service.

    Regional Health Issues
    Mr. Hinchliffe: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how often he meets the chairs of the NHS regional executive to discuss current regional health issues. [5617]
    Mr. Horam: The Secretary of State meets regional chairmen regularly to discuss a wide range of regional and national issues.
    Mr. Hinchliffe: Has the Minister raised with the chair of the Northern and Yorkshire regional health authority its failure to honour clear obligations given to Pinderfields hospital to compensate it for the loss of regional neuro-surgery provision to Leeds? The Minister knows full well that my constituents and those of my hon. Friend the Member for Normanton (Mr. O'Brien) were lied to and clearly misled during public consultation on this matter. He is directly responsible: what is he going to do about it?
    Mr. Horam: The hon. Gentleman's health authority is over target and has ample resources. It received a further increase this year. The local health trust has a specialist eye unit and a skin graft unit, which are doing marvellous work. Wakefield is in very good shape.
    Mr. Jacques Arnold: When my hon. Friend meets the chairman of South Thames health authority, will he pass on the congratulations of the people of north-west Kent on last week's decision to develop the private finance initiative for Darenth Park hospital at a cost of £102 million, which answers my constituents' dreams?
    Mr. Horam: I am delighted that Gravesham and Dartford are in such harmony.
    Ms Jowell: Will the Minister assure the House that, when he next meets the chairmen of the NHS regional executive, he will set a timetable for making good the Government's promise to patients that they can expect to be treated in a single-sex ward? Does he recall the Prime Minister's admission at the Dispatch Box two weeks ago that the Government had broken that promise to patients? Would he care to explain to the House why a report on the performance of NHS trusts on the patients charter standard on mixed-sex wards—which he promised in April would be published shortly—has still not seen the light of day? Is that report being suppressed because its findings confirm the inhumanity of mixed-sex wards, and offer further proof that Tory promises to patients are not worth the paper that they are written on?
    Mr. Horam: I am surprised that the hon. Lady took such a long time to ask a question that had just been answered by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. He has made plain the Government's commitment in the patients charter to move towards the elimination of mixed-sex wards. That is clearly in the public interest and in the interest of patients, and I am surprised that the hon. Lady thinks that we would renege on that commitment.

    St. Helier NHS Trust
    Lady Olga Maitland: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what recent assessment he has made of health provision by St. Helier NHS trust. [5618]
    Mr. Burns: The St. Helier NHS trust provides a comprehensive range of good quality services to more patients than ever before.
    Lady Olga Maitland: I thank my hon. Friend for his kind words about the magnificent track record of the St. Helier trust. Is he aware that, despite the Government's commitment of £1.6 billion extra resources to the health service, my local health authority of Merton, Sutton and Wandsworth is deeply concerned about a shortfall of £4 million, of which £1 million affects St. Helier? Will my hon. Friend consider a bridging loan so that we can maintain the excellent services that we have always had?
    Mr. Burns: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend. As she will know, as a result of the £1.6 billion secured by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, Merton, Sutton and Wandsworth health authority has an increase in cash terms of £11.5 million, which is a real-terms increase of 1.64 per cent. I know that my hon. Friend has written to my hon. Friend the Minister for Health. I assure her that her letter will be examined carefully, although, obviously, I cannot anticipate the answer. However, she may be interested to know that, after the Budget, the director of finance at the St. Helier NHS trust said of the £1.6 billion extra:
    "This is at the top end of my expectations. This means we will not have to make any cuts at all."

    NHS Managers
    Mr. McAvoy: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many managers there are in the national health service currently; how many there were in 1989; and if he will make a statement. [5620]
    Mr. Malone: There were 26,700 managers in the NHS in 1995—the latest year for which figures are available. The figure includes 6,660 practice managers employed by general practitioners, and excludes managers who need to be qualified health care professionals to do their job. Directly comparable information is not available for 1989.
    Mr. McAvoy: Is the Minister proud of the fact that the Government have cut the number of nurses by 50,000 and replaced them with 20,000 new senior managers? Does he accept that that simple fact reflects clearly the twisted priorities of the Government? Does he accept that those twisted priorities are the reason why more than 1 million people are waiting for treatment, dozens of trusts are on the verge of bankruptcy and ever more people are forced to sign up for private health insurance?
    Mr. Malone: The Government are proud of the fact that there are 55,000 more nurses and 25,000 more doctors now than when we took office, and that we have cut waiting lists since implementing our reforms. In 1990, 200,000 people were waiting for more than 12 months, and that figure is now down to 15,000. Activity in the
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    NHS is up by 33 per cent., whereas the total management figure, as a percentage of staff, is up by about 3 per cent. The NHS is built on those achievements, and the hon. Gentleman does no good by ignoring them.
    Mr. Bill Walker: Does my hon. Friend agree that the resources of the NHS are its staff, its equipment and its buildings? Does he further agree that it is how those resources are managed that will affect patients, and that, unless they are managed effectively and properly, all the qualified people in the world would not be able to assist patients?
    Mr. Malone: My hon. Friend is right. He understands that the genesis of the changes to the national health service was the Griffiths report, in 1985–86, which revealed that there was a great management deficit in the NHS. The Labour party seems to think that an organisation that employs approximately 1 million people and has an annual budget in the United Kingdom of about £40 billion per annum can somehow run services on its own. That has proved not to be the case. As my hon. Friend said, more patient care is being delivered today than ever before, because of the structure and proper management put in place by the Government.
    Mr. Foulkes: Is it not the case that if health services are reorganised as they were in Ayrshire—where three trusts and one board are now doing what one board managed to do previously—we shall have four times as many managers? Is that not a crazy way in which to run a health service?
    Mr. Malone: I will say only that when we reorganised the health service to abolish regional health authorities—to cut out a layer of bureaucratic administration—the hon. Gentleman voted against it.

    Health Care, Huddersfield
    Mr. Riddick: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what discussions he had about health care in Huddersfield during his recent visit to Huddersfield national health service trust. [5621]
    Mr. Burns: I understand that discussions were concentrated on a number of issues, not least the excellent care provided to users by Huddersfield NHS trust.
    Mr. Riddick: Is my hon. Friend aware that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State was able to see for himself some of the superb developments that are taking place as part of the £10 million investment programme being carried out by the Huddersfield NHS trust? Does that not simply demonstrate the Conservative Government's total commitment to the NHS in Yorkshire? Is he aware that I receive far fewer complaints about the local NHS in my part the world than about my local Labour-controlled council?
    Mr. Burns: My hon. Friend is right to identify the £10 million that has been invested over the past 18 months in hospital facilities in the Huddersfield area, including a new neurology ward, the Greenlea oncology suite, a relocated intensive care unit with new dedicated facilities and the refurbished orthopaedic out-patient

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    department. I am sure that my hon. Friend agrees that it is no wonder that he gets fewer complaints about his excellent local national health service provision than he does about his local authority, because people are led up to the back teeth with the shroud waving, moaning and carping of the Labour party.
    Mr. Campbell-Savours: When the Secretary of State visited Huddersfield and met the impressive team that runs the trust, did he mention page 124 of the Red Book—a page which I am sure that the Minister knows off by heart? In particular, did he mention the lines that refer to health, of which the NHS budget forms a part? The total health budget from 1997 to—
    Hon. Members: Reading.
    Madam Speaker: Order. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is not reading, but if he is, I am sure that he will stop it.
    Mr. Campbell-Savours: The figure for next year is 33.4. For the year after, it is 33.2. That is a real terms reduction of 0.2 over 12 months, according to the Red Book. Will the Minister explain how it is possible to construe that reduction in real-terms expenditure over 12 months, shown in a Government document, as an increase?
    Mr. Burns: The hon. Gentleman is obviously trying to help the hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Smith), who failed last night and again this morning. There is a straightforward answer to the question; there is no secret about it. He will see it confirmed if he continues to look through the Red Book. There will be a real-terms increase in spending on the national health service. The fall in the figure—[Interruption.] If the hon. Gentleman listens, he will get the answer. The fall in the figure is accounted for by the community care money being transferred to the Department of the Environment budget. If the hon. Gentleman looks at that budget, he will see the money there.
    Mrs. Peacock: Is my hon. Friend aware that the Dewsbury Healthcare NHS trust, which serves my constituency, has a long history of low funding? Is he further aware that, since its inception, the Calderdale and Kirklees health authority, based in Huddersfield, has done nothing to redress the balance?
    Mr. Burns: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for drawing the problem to my attention. She will be aware of the record increase, in the context of total national health service funding, in last year's budget.—[Interruption.]
    Madam Speaker: Order. The House cannot hear the Minister unless he uses the microphone.
    Mr. Burns: I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend for drawing the problem to my attention.

    Surgery Outcomes
    Mr. Gerrard: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will publish information about surgery outcomes on a hospital-by-hospital basis. [5622]
    Mr. Malone: We are working with the professions to develop information on outcomes. It is essential that information is robust, meaningful and unlikely to mislead before any decision is taken on publication.
    Mr. Gerrard: Is it not about time that we had some patients charter standards on quality? Why is the Minister still considering what to do on the issue when the Scottish Office is already publishing information about clinical outcome indicators on a hospital-by-hospital basis? If the information can be published in Scotland, why can it not be published in England, so that local people can make judgments about the quality of their hospitals?
    Mr. Malone: I do not remember Labour Members, who now seem keen about publishing outcomes information, being so keen when we started publishing the information in Scotland. We are piloting and evaluating a range of indicators aimed at giving patients better information about the quality of their treatment. Information will be available within the NHS during next year and will be published in a form accessible to patients in 1998. I hope that the hon. Gentleman remembers that that is only one part of the task on the issue of quality that he raised. We are also looking at clinical audit and effectiveness, investing large amounts of money in improving both.
    Mr. Gallie: Does my hon. Friend agree that the move away from the old, unwieldy health boards with 20 or so members to small, compact trust hospital management groups has done much to introduce local factors, which have allowed surgical outcomes to be much improved?
    Mr. Malone: That is right. My hon. Friend has touched on an extremely important point. The accountability of the NHS has been improved by the changes that the Government have brought about, and that allows us to look at such quality issues.

    Mentally Ill People
    Mr. Heppell: To ask the Secretary of State for Health when he last met the Association of County Councils to discuss services for mentally ill people. [5623]
    Mr. Burns: The Secretary of State meets regularly with the local authority associations, including the Association of County Councils. The last such meeting when mental health issues were discussed took place on 18 September.
    Mr. Heppell: Does the Minister really believe that the Government bear no responsibility for the number of mentally ill people who are homeless—living on the streets or in hostels—or for the fact that one in every six mental patients who are discharged from hospital are readmitted within 90 days as emergency cases?
    Mr. Burns: I am rather disappointed that the hon. Gentleman did not have the grace to acknowledge the

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    work that is being done through the record increases in spending on mental health—on the rough sleepers initiative, the mental illness specific grant, the mental health challenge funding and all the other initiatives—to help those with mental illness.

  PRIME MINISTER

    Engagements
    Mr. Butler: To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 3 December. [5640]
    The Prime Minister (Mr. John Major): This morning, I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall be having further meetings later today.
    Mr. Butler: What advice can my right hon. Friend give to the many constituents of mine and of other hon. Members who are excellently served by innovative and increasingly comprehensive GP fundholders, in the light of Labour's repeated pledge to destroy such practices?
    The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is right about the helpful changes that have been made to the health service over recent years. More than 4 million extra patients have been treated since 1979—a million since the reforms began. There is no doubt that the reforms, including GP fundholding, have been an enormous success. I very much regret that the Labour party cannot accept what is successful and, instead, threaten it.
    Mr. Blair: Will the Prime Minister say clearly, without any qualification, that his statement of 3 April on behalf of the Government that at the next election he will not rule out the option of joining a single currency in the next Parliament, remains unequivocally the position of the Government?
    The Prime Minister: That remains unequivocally the position of the Government.
    Mr. Blair: It is right to give the Prime Minister credit for such a clear reply. Let us see whether we can get another little clear reply. Can he tidy up one small loose end? Does he agree with the Deputy Prime Minister's statement on the radio at lunchtime, when he said of that position:
    "We are not going to change our position in the election campaign or in this Parliament"?
    The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend said that; that is our position.
    Sir Michael Spicer: The assurances gained by my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer in Brussels yesterday are to be warmly welcomed. Does my right hon. Friend think that it is now important that those assurances are written into the treaty of Rome, given the experiences that we have had with the European Court of Justice and the way in which it has interpreted the treaty of Rome? Will he press for such amendments at the Dublin summit?
    The Prime Minister: As my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor said to the House the other day, the elements of the stability pact would not affect the United Kingdom unless we were part of stage 3 of economic and monetary union. As my right hon. and learned Friend will tell the House in his statement shortly, our position is legally protected under the treaty, but we intend to ensure that the detailed regulations leave no room for ambiguity.
    Mr. Ashdown: Ordinary people in Britain will pay more tax under the Conservatives at the next election than they paid under the Conservatives at the last election. The Treasury figures show that, the Treasury's Red Book confirms it and Treasury Ministers admit it. Why is the Prime Minister the only person left in Britain denying it?
    The Prime Minister: I am afraid that the right hon. Gentleman is misleading the House and I shall explain gently to him how. If one earns more, one pays more tax. That is certainly true but, as my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary made clear, if we had not changed direct taxes at all since before the election, a family on average earnings would have paid more next year under the old regime than they will as a result of our tax cuts. The increase in taxation is a result of increased earnings. Unless the right hon. Gentleman would like marginal earnings to be untaxed, that is inevitable.
    Mr. Sumberg: Has my right hon. Friend had the opportunity to read the bulletin of the Bury and Bolton chamber of commerce, which reports a dramatic upturn in business confidence and business activity in my constituency? As it is the chamber's Christmas lunch on Friday, which I shall attend, will my right hon. Friend send my constituents a message of congratulations on that achievement and his best wishes for a new year of greater prosperity under a new Conservative Government?
    The Prime Minister: The strict answer to the first point about whether I have read the bulletin is no, I have not, but it clearly provides comforting reading. There is no doubt that the economy is improving, unemployment is falling, growth is continuing and manufacturing is doing extremely well in Bury and Bolton, and across the country. That is the result of the policies that we have been following, and we shall continue to follow them.
    Ms Walley: To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 3 December. [5641]
    The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Lady to the reply I gave some moments ago.
    Ms Walley: Given that the Government have now been forced to admit, contrary to what the Prime Minister said to the right hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown), that the Budget was a tax-raising Budget, and given that changes to direct tax mean that income taxes have gone up, will he now take down his untrue posters that falsely claim that honest John has given lower income tax?
    The Prime Minister: All I can say to the hon. Lady is that she should read the answer I gave to the right hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown) and she will find that the premise of her question is wrong.
    Dr. Twinn: Will my right hon. Friend support an inquiry into economic incompetence in local government

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    and will he start that inquiry with the London borough of Enfield, which in this year alone has failed to spend £5 million on housing maintenance and £1 million of single regeneration budget money, due to be spent on industrial renewal in my constituency? Is that not another example of new Labour, new incompetence?
    The Prime Minister: There are many examples of that and it might be difficult to inquire into all of them. In view of my hon. Friend's remarks, I shall draw the situation to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment.
    Mr. Betts: To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 3 December. [5642]
    The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Betts: I refer the Prime Minister to the comment of the Chief Secretary to the Treasury on Sunday—that direct taxes have risen during this Parliament—and to his own comment a few moments ago that direct taxes have risen only because earnings have risen. Will the Prime Minister accept the figures produced independently by the House of Commons Library, which show that, during the course of this Parliament, families on average earnings will not only pay more in direct taxes absolutely, by more than £2 a week, but—as a proportion of their earnings—their direct taxes will rise from 20.2 per cent. to 20.7 per cent? Will he now accept that the Chief Secretary was right to make those comments on Sunday, and will he withdraw his statement that the Government have kept direct taxes down, as it is simply not true?
    The Prime Minister: People who are receiving larger incomes and are moving up the tax bands of course distort the figures. The reality is that people will be £1,100 better off next year, allowing for tax and inflation, than they were before the last election. The hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends do not like that and, under Labour, no one would be richer but everyone would still have to pay more tax, as is inevitably the case under a Labour Government. Everyone knows that there would be higher tax rates under Labour, and I do not know how the hon. Gentleman has the effrontery to pretend otherwise.
    Mr. John Marshall: To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 3 December. [5643]
    The Prime Minister: I refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Marshall: As First Lord of the Treasury, my right hon. Friend is responsible for providing much of the finance for local government. Is he aware that many local authorities with high council taxes give poor services to their constituents? Does he agree that those who cannot run Islington or Hackney are incapable of running the country?
    The Prime Minister: New Labour hopes to produce a revolution in government, but I am astonished that it has utterly failed to do so in the element of local government that it already controls. There are a large number of
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    examples of inefficiency that one could give, including a council that has not collected 20 per cent. of its council tax, is owed £16 million in arrears, has a debt of more than £800 million, pays interest of £91 million, has the sixth-highest council tax in the country and has the worst education results. That council should be well known to the Leader of the Opposition—it is his council in Islington.
    Mr. O'Hara: To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 3 December. [5644]
    The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. O'Hara: The Prime Minister boasts about 25 tax cuts. Will he confirm that, to qualify for them, a taxpayer must—among other things—be a small company, drive a vintage car and be dead?
    The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman is very amusing, but wrong.
    Mr. Matthew Banks: To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 3 December. [5645]
    The Prime Minister: I refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Banks: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has cut some 25 taxes in the previous two Budgets, and that, since the last general election, the average family now have some £1,100 more to spend? Do not such facts show the contrast between the Conservative and Labour parties?
    The Prime Minister: I agree with my hon. Friend. The reality is that the basic rate of income tax is at its lowest level for 60 years.[Interruption.]
    Madam Speaker: Order. The hon. Member for Ceredigion and Pembroke, North (Mr. Dafis) will remove himself for the remainder of this day's sitting—I will have order in this Chamber—I am cautioning the hon. Gentleman. I will have no more of that in the Chamber.
    The Prime Minister: As my hon. Friend the Member for Southport (Mr. Banks) intimated, we now have the lowest basic rate of income tax for 60 years and people's living standards are rising. There is no doubt that Labour's appetite for European-style regulation would provide European-level taxes.
    Mr. Mackinlay: To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 3 December. [5646]
    The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Mackinlay: Can we cut out all the claptrap? The top 10 per cent. of earners in this country have done very

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    well, and people earning more than £64,000 are not paying higher taxes under the Tory Government. But the poor people—the most disadvantaged in our society—have seen their incomes fall and their tax demands go up. Is that fair? Should not the broadest backs bear the heaviest burden?
    The Prime Minister: If the hon. Gentleman wants to cut out claptrap, he should remain seated in future. The reality is that, as they were at between 83p and 98p when the Conservative Government came to power, it is hardly surprising if those upper rates of taxation have fallen. At the moment, one in four taxpayers—28 per cent., to be precise—now pay tax at only 20p in the pound and we
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    seek to bring more people within that rate, so that the basic rate becomes 20p in the pound. That is a fair tax system, and we are delivering it.
    Dr. Spink: On a day when the Palace is graced with the presence of the forces' sweetheart, Dame Vera Lynn, will my right hon. Friend send a message of good will to everyone in the British armed services who will be serving abroad over Christmas, and will he pay tribute to our armed services, which are the most professional in the world?
    The Prime Minister: I am happy to pay tribute to our armed forces, both abroad and at home, and I am delighted to see that, on this issue at least, I have the whole-hearted support of those on the Opposition Front Bench.

Economic and Finance Council
3.30 pm
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Kenneth Clarke): With permission, I should like to make a statement about the Council of Finance Ministers meeting in Brussels that I attended yesterday.
The Council considered at some length a new lending remit for the European investment bank. We considered and approved a report on employment policy to be submitted jointly by ECOFIN and the Social Affairs Council for consideration at the forthcoming European Council at Dublin. We transacted a number of other items of routine business that I shall report to the House in due course by written answer, in the usual way.
We carried forward political preparations for the anticipated discussion at Dublin of economic and monetary union. Finance Ministers have been charged by the last European Council at Florence with preparing a progress report on preparations for EMU. Progress was made, but no final conclusions were reached, mainly because of outstanding issues that remain to be resolved on the operation of the proposed stability pact and, in particular, on the definition of an exceptional and temporary deficit for the purpose of article 104(c).
I made a constructive contribution to the debate in an effort to achieve the widest possible measure of political agreement in preparation for the summit meeting. I made it clear at the outset of the discussion that my agreement, while in line with Government policy, was subject to a parliamentary reserve and could not commit the Government until parliamentary discussions had been completed. The Irish President of the Council confirmed that my parliamentary reserve would be reported and printed on any document laid before the Dublin Council.
Only two of the texts of the draft regulations that are currently subject to parliamentary scrutiny and were the subject of my statement to the House last Monday featured in the discussions at ECOFIN yesterday. They were the regulations on the legal framework for the euro under article 235 and under article 109(1)4 of the treaty.
There had never been any question of legislative decision on economic and monetary union being taken at yesterday's meeting. The two regulations were considered and drafts will probably be attached to the eventual report to Dublin.
The Council of Finance Ministers is at present agreed that there will be no final agreement on the operation of EMU or the text of any regulations until all the negotiations are completed. ECOFIN and all member states are working on the basis that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. I anticipate that no final agreement on any binding legislation on economic and monetary union is likely before, at the earliest, the planned European Council meeting in Amsterdam in June next year.
The draft article 235 regulation causes no problems to the British Government as it now stands. We would like to see it progressed as quickly as possible, to give greater legal certainty to existing commercial contracts in English law denominated in ecu or in currencies that might go into the euro.
The article 109(1)(4) regulation might have caused concern in this country as some people might have claimed, mistakenly, that the legislation to be enacted in
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due course by the member states of the euro zone would be directly applicable to all member states in a way that contradicted the British opt-out. That interpretation would have been incorrect. However, I was able to obtain the agreement of the Council to amendments to article 17 of the draft regulation, and consequential changes to the recitals of the regulations, that make the position clear and beyond doubt on the face of the document. The amendments make the application of the regulation subject to protocol 11 of the treaty. The amendments also make it clear that the protocol stipulates, among other things, that article 109(1)(4) shall not apply to the United Kingdom unless we move to the third stage.
I have also obtained agreement to changes to any text of the report that ECOFIN may eventually submit to the Dublin Council on progress towards EMU. I have obtained clear statements that membership of the proposed ERM 2 for states outside the euro will be voluntary. I have obtained explicit statements that the Council can make only non-binding recommendations under article 103 to member states outside the euro and outside ERM 2 when carrying out surveillance of economic policies.
We have, of course, been committed to economic and monetary co-operation and convergence of economic and monetary policies that have been necessary for the further development of the Community ever since we signed the Single European Act. The present treaty and practice commit us only to seek to ensure that our domestic policies are geared to price stability and sound public finances and to seek to avoid an excessive deficit. No sanctions can be applied to this country for any failure to take effective steps to achieve that unless and until we move to stage 3.
The report will deal with budgetary discipline in stage 3. The draft now states:
"Euro area Member States will be obliged to submit programmes and will be subject to agreed sanctions for failure to act effectively on excessive deficits. In the surveillance procedure, other Member States will be obliged to submit convergence programmes only. In the excessive deficit procedure, sanctions cannot be applied to them."
I shall ensure that such statements remain in any report that may eventually be submitted to the Dublin Council. Such statements are not being challenged by any other member state or the Commission.
The outstanding matters to be resolved relate to the circumstances in which a member of the euro may not be subject to the excessive deficit procedure and possible sanctions if a deficit is only exceptional and temporary.
The preparatory work in ECOFIN is therefore proceeding precisely on the legal and political basis that I and my hon. Friend the Exchequer Secretary and others have frequently described to the House.
Mr. Gordon Brown: Will the Chancellor confirm that the full two-day debate that the Government promised on Europe will take place, with one day allocated, as previously suggested, to discussing these important economic issues?
Unusually for a statement to the House, particularly the first oral statement by a Chancellor after an ECOFIN meeting, the Chancellor has sought to concentrate on decisions that have not been made or that have been deferred rather than on those that have been made. He

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says that final political and legislative agreement has not been reached, but also that only two issues are outstanding: the definition of excessive deficits and sanctions on temporary and excessive deficits. Will he confirm that we are right to conclude that there was political agreement yesterday on some very important specifics: not only on the nature and legal status of the euro, but on the nature of the new exchange rate mechanism and on most of the detailed agreements on the stability pact and convergence? I hope that he will give the details of those to the House in these exchanges.
Will the Chancellor assure us that the outstanding questions that he mentioned will not be tied up at the Franco-German summit next Monday without a significant British input, but will remain genuinely open until discussed at the next Finance Ministers meeting next Thursday?
Will the Chancellor confirm that the Government's position yesterday was to raise no objections to the proposals on the euro? On exchange rate policy, will he confirm that while the guarantee that he mentioned confirms that economic advice from the Commission to the outs will not be binding, the Government's position as expressed by him yesterday at the summit is to raise no objection to the more central proposal that the exchange rates of the outs will be monitored and assessed?
Will he confirm that the purpose is that the Commission should ensure that Britain and other countries will avoid real exchange misalignments, and that surveillance on such market-sensitive areas will be published by the Commission? While we already knew that membership of ERM 2 was voluntary, does the Chancellor agree that he accepted a statement yesterday that member states with a derogation could be expected to join the new mechanism?
While the Chancellor has always been right to say that countries outside the euro cannot be fined, and while, as he has announced today, he has added a new stipulation that there be no legal obligation for the outs to avoid excessive deficits—something understood by everyone else in every other country before last week—will he confirm what he has failed to tell us: that the convergence programmes, which are obligatory as per the agreement made yesterday, should be developed along the same lines as stability programmes? Will he confirm that, under that agreement, convergence plans will have to be submitted by Britain every year, that they will form the basis of public comment by the Commission and that Britain then may be rebuked for failure to take necessary action?
Does the Chancellor agree with us that the difference between the Labour party and the Conservative party is that, while we and he can support the principle of monetary union, Labour is able to admit something that the Chancellor must deny for internal reasons: that, whether we join or not, monetary union will have a significant and direct impact on Britain—something that must be taken into account in any decision that we make?
Last Monday, the Chancellor sought to reassure his Back Benchers. Then last Thursday he called on them in a radio interview to come to their senses. Yesterday, in another wobble, the Prime Minister tried to appease them. Today he is trying to correct that statement. Today we
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have a very unusual statement from a Chancellor concentrating on decisions that have not been made rather than telling us about the decisions that are being made.
Is it not true that, for this Government, with different ministerial briefings on Europe, a day is now a long time in politics, and that we may soon have the "Today" policy, the 1 o'clock news policy, the 6 o'clock news policy and the 9 o'clock news policy? Struggle as the Chancellor does to reconcile his party's interest with the British national interest, it is time for us to insist that the national interest comes first.
Mr. Clarke: I can confirm that there will be a two-day debate. I assume, subject to agreement through the usual channels, that one day will be devoted to economic and monetary union and the other to the intergovernmental conference.
I always report back on ECOFIN meetings, not usually in this form, but by written answer. I am always ready to come here if anyone wishes to hear about ECOFIN meetings. Sometimes, rather bizarre accounts of those meetings appear. I answer parliamentary questions on the subject. I put explanatory memoranda before the Scrutiny Committee. I appear before the Select Committees of both Houses. I do not think that there is any detail of the process that I have not shared with anyone on either side of the House who is seriously interested in listening.
Occasionally, the right hon. Gentleman puts to me points that he appears to have picked up from my speeches. I have lost count of the number of times that I have pointed out that economic and monetary union is of enormous importance to Britain, whether or not we join. It is not a new discovery by the right hon. Gentleman. He knows perfectly well that, as at present we are prospering because we are in the single market and the single market is extremely important to us, it matters to us a great deal how the euro zone works, whether we join it or not. That is why I keep attending the meetings.
It is true that there are only two outstanding issues in the draft report to go forward, but I have made the whole report subject to a parliamentary reserve, as I described. I have already set out the issues in my statement. All the details of any other aspect on which the right hon. Gentleman wishes to press me in these exchanges or elsewhere are in the explanatory memoranda. The ERM 2 mechanism is described. It will be a hub-and-spoke mechanism, as opposed to ERM 1, which works on a different basis. At every stage, it has been clear that membership of ERM 2 is voluntary, and the Prime Minister and I have always made it clear that we cannot foresee circumstances in which Britain will join ERM 2.
It is right that the document states that members with a derogation can be expected to join, but this country is not, strictly speaking, a member with a derogation—we have an opt-out under our separate protocol 11, to which I referred.
Nothing will be decided at the Franco-German summit, any more than anything was finally decided at the Anglo-French summit that I attended, or at the Anglo-German summits that I attend. In fact, any idea that yesterday's meeting involved some sort of Franco-German axis against the rest of the members is a complete illusion. I am glad to say that the 15 Ministers from 15 member countries were all defending their national interests and no such cross-alliances emerged.

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It is certainly true that exchange rates will be a matter of common concern. That was established in the treaty—it has been the position for 25 years, since we signed the treaty of Rome. The right hon. Gentleman's sudden and horrid realisation of that aspect of the argument is, I think, a little belated.
As for the submission of convergence programmes, we have been submitting such programmes for at least three years. We have been declared to be in excessive deficit and we have been made subject to non-binding recommendations, along with, I think, 12 other member states, which are all currently in excessive deficits. Those recommendations are not binding—I could walk away saying, "I do not agree with those recommendations, thank you very much." In fact, the recommendations are entirely in line with this Government's policy of getting rid of an excessive deficit and putting the public finances into a healthy state.
That is the position. This is the second statement that I have made in a week and I look forward to debating the subject with the right hon. Gentleman. The reason why these matters are not debated on the Floor more often is that the Opposition have never asked for a Supply day debate on the issue. It is the right hon. Gentleman who runs away from discussing the issue, because it is he who has not had any moments of clarity with his Back Benchers. I look forward to seeing the right hon. Gentleman on the spot, explaining precisely where he agrees with me, where he disagrees with me and what he is going to say about it to some of his own Back Benchers.
Mr. Norman Lamont: Is the Chancellor aware that there is total support for the view that the convergence criteria should not be fudged? However, does not that also apply to this country? Will my right hon. and learned Friend confirm that it is a provision in the Maastricht treaty that, in order to qualify for EMU, a country has to join the exchange rate mechanism? Is not that the reason why Italy has rejoined the exchange rate mechanism in the past few days?
If my right hon. and learned Friend thinks that exchange rate stability should be judged post hoc, because the ERM does not really exist, will he confirm that he has taken the Law Officers' opinion on that point? Will he tell us from what central exchange rate the criteria for stability will be judged over the next two years?
Mr. Clarke: At the moment, we have a floating exchange rate, not a central exchange rate. The treaty was drafted at a time when the ERM narrow bands were the normal margins for currency fluctuations. No one has reinterpreted the treaty since those members still in the ERM have been moving within broad bands, and there are differences of opinion about that aspect of the treaty.
If one examines the treaty, one finds that it will eventually be for the Heads of Government in the Council to decide whether the member states comply with the conditions necessary for going ahead with stage 3, which go beyond the convergence criteria and enable them to address wider issues. I certainly agree with my right hon. Friend that it is extremely important that, if and when they move to that decision, they decide to go ahead with membership only in a euro zone of countries that are genuinely convergent, in which the criteria are not fudged in any important respect. Otherwise, I would think that
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that was, in itself, a reason for insisting that the United Kingdom ought not to join—regardless of other problems that might arise at the time.
It is a question not only of hitting those magic convergence criteria figures for the calendar year 1997, but of countries putting themselves into a position where they will maintain stable fiscal conditions in their economies for the foreseeable future. That matter has still to be judged and it is currently extremely difficult to forecast what our position will be.
Mr. Malcolm Bruce: Will the House take note of the fact that the Opposition's explanation of their obscure position on economic and monetary union took nearly as long as the Chancellor's explanation of the Government's obscure position on economic and monetary union?
Will the Chancellor acknowledge that, as long as the United Kingdom remains a potential or aspirant member of economic and monetary union—which is the Government's position—we shall be bound by convergence criteria that will inevitably be determined by the details of any stability pacts agreed by members of the euro zone? Given his robust defence of the Government's position, which those on these Benches respect and admire, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman also tell the House that he would not stay in a Government who undermined his position by declaring that they would not under any circumstances join economic and monetary union—something which, in any case, is not in the Government's gift to offer?
Mr. Clarke: Unlike the Labour party, the Government not only have a clear position, but restate it rather frequently. We cannot be criticised for the number of occasions on which various members of the Government keep setting out in unequivocal terms what our policy is. We are also pursuing that policy in some detail. I hope that the House's sudden interest in frequent statements on progress will take forward a little the understanding of where we are.
It is certainly true that, within the single market, convergence has always been important. As I said, the Government signed up to all that in the late 1980s—in 1986, I believe—with the Single European Act. If there were unstable conditions throughout the single market, and countries were getting into fiscal problems of one kind or another, or there were wild fluctuations in exchange rates caused by unsuitable fiscal policies, the pattern of trade would be disrupted and every member state would suffer.
We have been submitting convergence programmes. We submit them to the House and they are approved by the House. Then we go through the surveillance procedure and make recommendations that match what we wish to do. We take part in the surveillance procedure of other member states, and urge them to take similar action to get their fiscal policies in order, so that stability in the market can be maintained for all of us.
Mr. John Redwood: Having agreed to a regulation that will make the euro legal within the European Community, how does the Chancellor propose to make it legal outside the Community? Does he agree that one of the recitals in the proposed regulation serves

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to undermine the legality of the currency outside Europe, in that it invites people to realise that it has not been made properly legal outside the member states? Does he believe the legal advice in the Community that there would need to be legislation in countries such as America and Japan, to make it legal compulsorily to convert their deutschmarks and ecu into euros?
Mr. Clarke: The European Union can legislate only for the convertibility of the currency inside the Union and the impact on contracts within our jurisdictions. When such a change takes place, other member states may have to address any legal problems arising in those countries, but that is not a matter for the European Union.
I should make it clear that the most important aspect of the regulation on the legal basis of the euro is to ensure continuity of contract. It will not make legal any contract that would otherwise be unlawful; what we seek to avoid is any question of people's trying to frustrate existing contracts by saying that circumstances have changed if the ecu becomes the euro, or if other currencies go into EMU.
I believe that my right hon. Friend, with his knowledge of such matters, will discover that many people in the City of London want us to get on with the regulation, because they want to avoid the litigation and uncertainty that might otherwise result.
Mr. Peter Shore: Is the Chancellor aware that, if we had been subjected to the stability pact and its penalties over the past four years, since he became Chancellor, Britain would have had to pay to the European central bank more than £11 billion? Does he consider that such a penalty would be a proper reflection of his incompetence as a Chancellor, or does he think that an £11 billion penalty would be excessive, and that there were circumstances to justify his excess borrowing requirement over the past four years?
Mr. Clarke: We have not finally settled the level of penalties, but I am glad to say that yesterday everybody agreed that we should put a cap on them. We have not yet settled the circumstances in which penalties might arise if there were an economic downturn of an exceptional or temporary nature. In any event, everything will depend on a political decision to be taken by the Council of Ministers, if such a process is put in hand against any member state of the euro that starts to get into fiscal difficulties.
Looking back over the history of deficits in every other country does not help. If we look back over the 1980s, across the whole continent, we see that deficit financing was—
Mr. Nigel Spearing: Yours?
Mr. Clarke: We would find that practically every member state might have been subject to penalties, under some of the drafts now being produced.
What is happening is that all member states and all sensible Governments in the world are getting away from heavy deficit financing, and they are having to do so. If one compares this country with the continent, one can see that we are well ahead in getting our deficit properly
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under control, down to an acceptable level, and moving it towards a balance. We have made all the structural changes in our labour market and elsewhere that other countries, such as France and Germany, are now having to get through to make themselves competitive.
Mr. Ray Whitney: May I congratulate my right hon. and learned Friend on the constructive way in which he has projected and protected our national interest at the ECOFIN discussions? Will the Chancellor assure the House that, in the months before a decision must be taken about entering into the single currency, be it at Amsterdam in June or subsequently, he and the rest of the Government will make every effort to disperse the fog of misinformation on the single currency that has been deliberately created?
Mr. Clarke: I agree with my hon. Friend. I am grateful for the opportunity to set out the stage that we have reached in a process of work that has been going on for some months. I trust that the more we debate the issue on the Floor of the House, the more the logic of that position will get across to those on both sides of the House, because it matters to us, as my shadow said a few moments ago, whether we eventually exercise our option to join or not. There are arguments on both sides of that option that we shall have to judge when the circumstances have made it the right time to make that judgment.
I have brought back a report on a meeting of ECOFIN of a kind that I previously reported by written answer because no one was interested in having a debate on the Floor of the House. I do not come back here to say that, yesterday, I discovered some dragons and slayed them—there were no dragons. I have, however, got on the front of more documents statements of the obvious truth, acknowledged by other Ministers and by the Commission. The only query that I had at one stage was from another Finance Minister who asked. "Why do we have to make the document longer by putting this into it when it is already obvious what it means?" I have done a bit of that, and I will do more of it.
Mr. Giles Radice: Could the Chancellor tell the House how many countries will qualify under the Maastricht criteria for the single currency when the time comes?
Mr. Clarke: When I produce a Budget statement, I make many economic forecasts, but it is always wise not to add to them. At this stage, I would not like to say whether a sufficient number will qualify by what date. At the moment, a large number of member states expect to go into economic and monetary union before the turn of the century. That prospect exists as a real possibility behind all our discussions.
Mr. John Butterfill: Will my right hon. and learned Friend confirm that, whether or not the Government decide to join the euro in the first wave, it is vital to this country's interests that the euro should be a successful and robust currency? Does he agree that it is therefore essential that the terms under which the euro is managed are as robust as possible? Does he further agree that it would be entirely undesirable for countries

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to be able to cheat on the way in and then subsequently cheat on the management of their economies once they were members of that currency?
Mr. Clarke: Those countries are likely to comprise some of our most important customers in the world, and the single market remains our most important market for the export of goods and services. When it does well, we do well; when it does badly, we slow down. It is therefore important that, within a market that we shall share with those countries, whether we join the euro or not, stability and the right conditions are sustained, which lead to the growth of trade and investment. That is the whole basis on which we are taking part in the discussions at the moment. It would be folly to walk away from them.
It is also important to ensure that, when the new arrangements go ahead, and if there is a euro zone, it does not divide the Union in other ways. It is extremely important that the countries that do not join the euro zone are not put into a situation where the procedures make them second-class members, excluded from decision making. I have to say, however, that it is bound to be the case that those who join the euro zone will be the principal movers and shakers of most of the political developments in the Union.
Mr. Tony Benn: Did the Chancellor congratulate the French Minister on the constructive role played by the French Government in bringing about a settlement of the lorry drivers' dispute in France, which has led to higher wages, shorter hours, retirement at 55 and higher safety standards? Does he not accept that that is the sort of model for European co-operation that would be welcome across all the European Union?
Mr. Clarke: Employment policy is not a European matter. There is no European Community competence in employment matters, which are entirely a matter for the nation state, and so they should remain; so I certainly do not comment on French industrial disputes.
I know an awful lot of French politicians and business men who agree that France must go through the process of reform and structural change, especially in its labour market, that the British so painfully went through in the 1980s. We are now benefiting from the changes that we have made, in rising employment, falling unemployment and healthy prospects. The French are going through the same process. I do not join the side of those in France who seek to resist it so far as to drive up industrial costs there to an unacceptable level.
Mr. Robert Jackson: Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the financial and economic policies that the stability pact is designed to sustain are all policies that a sensible and prudent Conservative Government would in any case wish to pursue?
Mr. Clarke: Yes. Although those convergence programmes impose no binding recommendations on us, the recommendations come to us in a form that any sensible Conservative would say was the basis of a sound fiscal and economic policy. If anything, they are a bit generous. I believe that this country should move towards balance in the medium term and that our aspirations for inflation should be to match, if possible, the best of our competitors in western Europe.
Mr. George Stevenson: The Chancellor will know that, of the three proposed
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regulations—governing the status of the euro, preparation for the use of the euro and the stability pact—two regulations are subject to article 104, which means that we have opt-outs, and the other is subject to article 103, which means that we have not. The Chancellor talked about clarification being contained in the annexe to the report document. Can he confirm that the proposed regulation on the stability pact, and therefore the convergence information, which is under article 103 and therefore not subject to opt-out, will be subject to opt-out?
Mr. Clarke: I had better read the hon. Gentleman's question when it appears in Hansard. I would also invite him to read my statement, which dealt with those attachments. I do not say that disrespectfully. Because of a minor matter of a fire in my Department, I had to write it myself, so I am more familiar with it, but it is not altogether clear until one reads it twice.
We shall attach two draft regulations to the report. They are two of the draft regulations that are currently subject to scrutiny in the House. I have, as set out in the report, had amendments made to article 17 of the regulation under article 109(1)(4), to make it clear that in this country we have no binding consequences from that because of our opt-out from article 109.
I have set out the position as clearly as I can in the statement and the explanatory memorandum. If we stay out, we have to produce convergence programmes, we are subject to surveillance and we can have non-binding recommendations made against us. That has gone on for years. We accepted all that in the Single European Act, when my right hon. Friend Baroness Thatcher was Prime Minister and I was a member of the Government.
If we joined the single European currency, we would have no opt-out from the sanctions, which is why it is so important that the details of that are argued by British Ministers. Yesterday I took a very active part in the debate, because it is important for everyone that we get that right.
Mr. James Couchman: Further to the question by the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn), did my right hon. and learned Friend have a chance to discuss with the French Finance Minister what the impact of last week's ruinous settlement will be on that country's eligibility to join EMU? For without France, surely EMU will have to be postponed.
Mr. Clarke: I did not have such an opportunity except conversationally, which obviously I would not report, but I follow events in France with interest and I agree with my hon. Friend that the whole thing will not happen unless France can achieve the convergence criteria.
I agree with those who say that achieving the convergence criteria means putting the interpretation on it that my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Thames (Mr. Lamont) did a moment ago—strict compliance with the convergence criteria, so that the country is likely to be able to sustain a healthy financial position. But it is for the Government of France to address their internal problems and to ensure that, first, they can achieve that standard if they wish to enter EMU, and secondly, they can make themselves competitive with

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other countries in northern Europe, which they will face on very level terms if they enter economic and monetary union with them.
Mr. Dennis Skinner: Is the Chancellor aware that one of the reasons why he is here today to speak about ECOFIN, as opposed to providing written answers or attending the Scrutiny Committee, is that 18 members of the Cabinet do not agree with it? My right hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown) asked whether the Chancellor still agreed with economic and monetary union, not because my right hon. Friend particularly wanted an answer for himself, but because he wanted the Chancellor to tell the Euro-sceptics on his Back Benches that he is still in the same place as before.
The problem, as the Chancellor knows only too well, is that large numbers of people in Britain know that, to meet the criteria, up to £18 billion-worth of public expenditure would have to be cut, which would mean throwing more people on to the dole. That is why there are strikes in France and other Common Market countries. Workers there are saying, "So far, but no further."
Mr. Clarke: Whether or not I appear before the House is a matter for the usual channels. I am but the servant of the House, and I am always happy to appear before it. I do not regard the shadow Chancellor as a simple inquirer after truth. He may have other motives when he seeks answers to questions.
The path that I have taken in ECOFIN is in pursuit of the Government's policy, clearly restated, accepted collectively by the Cabinet and reiterated by every member of it, as my statements repeatedly make clear.
On the matter of controversy, the hon. Gentleman's description of the consequences of pursuing sound fiscal policies is bizarre. No country can prosper by running up huge public deficits, incurring huge debts in proportion to its gross domestic product and allowing inflation to rise.
Mr. Skinner: You should know.
Mr. Clarke: No, the hon. Gentleman should know. He supported Labour Governments who tried that and should have demonstrated to the rest of the world that it was pure folly.
Mr. Tony Marlow: Can my right hon. and learned Friend say whether article 3 of the convergence protocol—the one dealing with ERM—is operative? Are there circumstances in which European institutions can take legal action against the United Kingdom if they perceive that we have devalued in a competitive way?
Mr. Clarke: I ask my hon. Friend to refer me to the particular article in clearer terms, and perhaps to put his question in writing. I shall try to give him a clear reply.
It is not true that if we opt to remain outside the euro zone, we can be made subject to sanctions. We can be made subject to non-binding recommendations under
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article 103, but as the term implies, we are free to disregard them. Article 189 of the treaty makes it clear that the recommendations are non-binding.
Rev. Martin Smyth: In his statement, the Chancellor said that nothing would be agreed until everything was agreed. That expression is usually used to give reassurance. Whom was it intended to reassure? In the discussions in which I was involved several years ago, nothing was agreed and that was the end of the understanding. Those who disagree will walk away, and those who want to move on will keep moving on, until someone gives in. Do the Chancellor's words imply that the majority veto will be given away, or are they intended to reassure a particular group?
Mr. Clarke: I realise that the hon. Gentleman has experience of negotiations on matters of the most fundamental importance, which gave rise to the idea that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. In less emotively charged but extremely important negotiations such as those in which we are engaged, it is a perfectly sensible rule to apply, so that agreement is steadily produced, with give and take on all sides and everyone reserving the right to revisit the whole if a new issue arises.
However, these negotiations are not proceeding on that basis. No one wishes to get rid of vetoes; the whole process is based on the treaty. No Minister and no one in the Commission seeks to reopen the treaty base or to extend the treaty's provisions. Although everyone reserved their position last night when we finally left the meeting, we were reduced to discussing pretty obscure details of precisely what kind of economic downturn could give rise to a deficit that might be described as excessive and temporary. A great deal of feeling is expressed on the matter and there is a wide divergence of views. However, ultimately it is not likely to destroy the whole process.
Mr. Iain Duncan Smith: In answer to a question from my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) on 25 November, my right hon. and learned Friend gave an undertaking that he would seek copper-bottomed reassurances about the use of article 103 for those who remained out under recital 13. I have listened to my right hon. and learned Friend, but I still cannot see the difference between what he said on 25 November and his comments today. Is not the key to using article 103 the fact that it allows the court to be used at some point for possible infraction proceedings? Is not the best way of copper-bottoming it simply to say, "Let us take recital 13 out of the use of article 103," which would then solve the problem?
Mr. Clarke: Article 103 is concerned solely with the provision of information. In so far as regulations are made under article 103, they are procedural rules. The only way in which they can give rise to sanctions is in the theoretical manner that one can be made subject to infraction proceedings for any non-compliance. However, that has not yet given rise to any fines and it would be rather bizarre to go to infraction proceedings on procedural points. Although people occasionally make statements that imply otherwise, it cannot give rise to any proceedings against a member state for failing to comply

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with economic surveillance recommendations, for example, because the treaty expressly provides that those recommendations are non-binding.
Recital 13—the regulation to which my hon. Friend referred—did not come up yesterday because the regulation was not addressed. I think that it will come up at a meeting of ECOFIN some time in January or February next year—I am not sure when we shall face it next. As my hon. Friend knows, I do not agree that recital 13 has the effect that some people fear. When we come to it, I shall address it in the way that I addressed the two regulations yesterday and the report that we had, and seek to get on the face of the document clarity as to its meaning. The recital cannot alter the nature of article 103.
Yesterday I had not the slightest difficulty in getting statements made: my colleagues regard them as bald statements of the obvious truth. We are fairly familiar with the treaty, having spent many hours of our lives discussing it together. I shall seek to come back from discussions on that regulation with a statement that makes it clear. Recital 13 will not matter in the slightest once we see the regulation to which it refers: the regulation that will bring up to date the convergence procedures for those who do not go into the euro zone. According to the latest information that I have, that regulation is not even drafted yet and it has certainly not been tabled by the Commission.
Mr. Denzil Davies: The Chancellor has emphasised the importance that he attaches to convergence, not only on 1 January 1999, but thereafter if there is a euro. Will he confirm that, while the stability pact applies to Government deficits, it does not apply to Government debts? If that is the case, after 1 January 1999 there will be no sanctions to prevent divergence from national debt.
Mr. Clarke: That is not finally settled—some versions include debt and some include deficits only. The argument is that, in setting fiscal policy, the fiscal deficit for each year is most immediately within Government control. If a Government achieve fiscal deficits that are below the rate of growth of GDP, the total stock of debt as a proportion of GDP is bound to come down. The argument for concentrating on deficits is: if one gets the deficit right, the debt problem will be resolved in consequence.
I see the right hon. Gentleman nodding; he is very well informed and expert in such matters. I respect his judgment and I look forward to hearing his views. I am merely explaining the reason why everyone is concentrating on deficits rather than debt at present.
Mr. John Wilkinson: Can my right hon. and learned Friend explain why there is such preoccupation with budget deficits? One understands the treaty commitment and the pursuit of convergence, but has not experience on the continent shown that convergence of itself brings pain and grief—notably high unemployment and recession, especially in France and Spain? As a sovereign independent country, should we not place greater emphasis on other economic criteria, such as levels of employment, investment, competitiveness and technical innovation?
Mr. Clarke: I realise that healthy public finances are not the only thing that matter in economic policy, but
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they matter quite a lot. Their relevance in this context is that modern states, sovereign nation states, have limited freedom in this area because they are subject to the discipline of today's unregulated markets. If a Government get their fiscal policies wrong, they are rapidly punished by the reaction of the markets. The difficulty if one goes into a single currency or economic and monetary union is that if one member of EMU gets it wrong, all the members are punished by the markets. There is a tendency to weaken the currency or drive up interest rates—not necessarily, but they will tend in that direction—if one of the member states gets into a fiscal problem. That is why there is so much concentration on that subject.
The treaty refers to other matters that should be taken into account. I am not sure that unemployment levels are much of a guide, but flexibility in other respects, including flexibility in the labour market, is highly relevant. If countries agree that they can combine their monetary policies so that shocks that might occur—which previously had been absorbed by changes in the exchange rate or interest rates—have to be absorbed in other ways, one has to be clear that they can be absorbed in a way that does not cause excessive strain.
In the end, countries that go into a single currency will find that the main pressure on them is rapidly to make themselves more competitive with one another, and it will step up the overall pressure on all of them to make themselves more competitive. That will help them to develop their own economies and help them in their competitiveness with the outside world.
Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones: Can the Chancellor clarify the reply that he gave to his predecessor, the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Thames (Mr. Lamont), about whether it will be necessary to rejoin the ERM? If the Government were ever to recommend to the House that the United Kingdom should join the final stage of EMU, is it his policy that we would not of necessity have to join the ERM first?
Mr. Clarke: I am one who asserts and believes that it is not necessary first to join the ERM. That matter will be resolved, with every other application for membership, if they occur, if in 1998, or whenever, somebody applies for membership of economic and monetary union and has not joined the ERM. The whole matter will then have to be resolved by the European Council or by the Council of the Heads of Government, which will have to see whether the country satisfies the conditions in totality, set out in the treaty.
Mr. Graham Riddick: Surely the Maastricht treaty says that countries that wish to participate in the single currency will have to have been within the ERM for two years before joining. If that is so and, as my right hon. and learned Friend said today and also in his letter of 22 November, this country will not rejoin the ERM, surely it means that no Conservative Government can take this country into a single currency. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] If that is indeed the case, let us say so.
Mr. Clarke: I do not think that it is the case. My hon. Friend has got near to the treaty, but he has not

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used the precise words, which, off the cuff, I cannot guarantee to get precisely right myself. He quotes from the test of exchange rate stability, and one of the tests is about being within the normal range of movement of the exchange rate mechanism. At the time that it was drafted, it referred to the narrow bands, which collapsed at least three years ago, so it is extremely arguable whether it is any longer remotely relevant as a test to decide whether sufficient exchange rate stability has been developed by a member state.
All those matters, and many more, still have to emerge if and when we reach a process whereby member states contemplate going into EMU and this country has to decide whether to exercise its opt-out or opt in. That is some way ahead, and I think that an awful lot of things will happen between now and then to make the position much clearer and to make the position of many other countries much clearer, as well as our own. At the moment, we do not even know which countries might be joining and when, and there are equally important details beyond that to be resolved before we can take a judgment.
Mr. Nigel Spearing: The Chancellor referred to the procedures of the House. Is it not a fact that, between now and Friday week, he must table a motion on these topics, which, together with any selected amendments, will be taken and voted on forthwith? As there is to be a debate next week on the motion for the Adjournment—presumably for about six hours before 10 o'clock—would it not make good sense to take the forthwith motions and any amendments immediately afterwards? Can the Chancellor persuade his right hon. Friend the Leader of the House to take that step, for the Chancellor's own reputation, for the Government's reputation and for the reputation of the House and its procedures?
Mr. Clarke: As the hon. Gentleman knows, the tabling of business and the procedures of the House are matters for my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House to deal with on the Government's behalf, and are not matters for me. At an appropriate time, we shall table whatever scrutiny motions are necessary. We shall require a parliamentary scrutiny reserve until such time as we have completed the proper processes.
Precisely what is forthcoming at Dublin remains to be seen. I have already made it clear that any definitive legislative action is unlikely to take place before June next year at the earliest. The documents, about which hon. Members were very concerned 10 days ago, are likely to go through further negotiation. The revised form in which they emerge could be liable to further scrutiny. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will allow me to leave such matters to the expertise of my right hon. Friend the Leader of House, who will clarify the position in due course.
Mr. William Cash: Unless my right hon. and learned Friend has found that the textual amendments to which he referred were burnt in the Treasury fire this morning, would he be good enough to allow the House to see them before the debate?
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Will he answer the question that he did not answer last Monday, and that the Prime Minister did not answer the following day? I asked for an absolute guarantee that the regulations would be amended to ensure that, on the assumption that we were out of a single currency, and that countries would be fined for having cheated their way into the system or having failed because of incompetence, United Kingdom taxpayers would not, as net contributors, have to pay one way or another for the default of others.
Mr. Clarke: I referred to an amendment to the regulation in paragraph 17 of article 109(1)(4). Because of a variety of circumstances, the only copy that I had to hand this morning was the one that I was carrying in my pocket. The document will eventually be published by the Irish presidency. The draft regulation will then be laid before the House, so that we can all see it.
I also referred to the emerging text of the report that may be put before the Dublin summit if it is agreed by then. At the moment, it is still an emerging report, the text of which has not been finished. I said that I would ensure that my points were included, and I think that I can give that undertaking, because nobody resisted them yesterday. I do not know whether we shall finish the report in time for Dublin. It is for the Irish presidency to decide when the document will come into the public domain.
There is a mountain of paper, and what is published is rapidly overtaken. There is no attempt to hold anything back from the House; it is a matter of keeping pace with events, and with the sometimes vast quantities of paper that the House is given to scrutinise as much as it wishes.
I do not agree with my hon. Friend's description of the penalties procedure. Penalties arise if a country goes into economic and monetary union, incurs an excessive fiscal deficit contrary to its obligations, and then fails to take any effective steps to reduce it. In my opinion, the purpose of the penalties is to act as a deterrent, and to ensure that Governments do not get themselves into that position. That is why we negotiated to have those penalties in the Maastricht treaty.
Mr. Mike Gapes: Does the Chancellor agree that if the euro goes ahead and this country stays out, our exporters will face greater uncertainty because of the possibility of continuing transaction costs and of speculation against our currency, and the possibility—or the likelihood—of higher interest rates? Has he noticed how interest rates in Italy and Spain have been falling in expectation of their joining? Can he tell us why our interest rates are not falling?
Mr. Clarke: I agree that those arguments can be made, but if the hon. Gentleman was fair, he would also concede that there might be some downside arguments as well. A great deal depends on how well the project is put together and how it progresses. However, those who are pursuing economic and monetary union believe that they will achieve a strong currency, stable economic conditions and low interest rates, as the hon. Gentleman described. It is certainly

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the case that we have higher long-term interest rates than most of our competitors because of our history of devaluation and fiscal deficits.
Mr. Nicholas Budgen: Will my right hon. and learned Friend confirm that the other countries of the European Union regard our floating exchange rate as conferring upon us a grossly unfair advantage? Will he tell us whether he achieved anything in his negotiations this week that will protect us from retribution from the other countries?
Mr. Clarke: If they do regard it as that, I think that they are wrong. We have a floating exchange rate, which my hon. Friend has always been in favour of—and I am in favour of it.
Mr. Budgen: Now.
Mr. Clarke: Now, yes; because the attempt to manage it did not work. I concede that to my hon. Friend; we have had this discussion before. The result is that our exchange rate goes up and down. Whether that is an advantage remains a matter of argument. Currently our currency is strengthening very strongly, and many British industries are beginning to worry that we might get too strong. That is a floating exchange rate. I do not think that member states have complete control over those exchange rates in the way that some people imagine. The market—as my hon. Friend would be the first to agree—determines such things.
Mr. Budgen: What about sanctions?
Mr. Clarke: No sanctions would be taken against us; the single market does not lend itself to the imposition of trading penalties on a country that has the misfortune of having its currency weakened excessively. There are simply no ways in which the single market obligations can be undone, and there is no way in which any fiscal transfers can be demanded.
Mr. Ken Purchase: The hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Budgen) does not agree.
Mr. Clarke: My hon. Friend may not agree, but I wish that he would refer me to any fears that anyone is striding forward with such threats to us.
Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Speaker: Thank you. We shall now move on to the next business. No doubt, had questions been asked and answered more briskly, I could have called more hon. Members. I am sure that the House is with me on that.

Points of Order
4.27 pm
Mr. Paul Flynn: On a point of order, Madam Speaker. May I ask for your help—as you are the defender of Back-Bench privileges—in the deplorable deterioration of the parliamentary answers that we have been receiving? I have received an apology from the Northern Ireland Office for giving me entirely wrong information, and an apology from the Department of Social Security for telling me that an answer was in a leaflet in the Library. That leaflet did not yet exist, and it was not printed until a month later.
However, those answers pale into insignificance compared to one that I received to a question that I tabled on 19 November 1996. I was astonished to receive, on the same day, a telephone call from a journalist, who said, "That is a huge sum." I had not yet received the answer. The question was:
"To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what was the total cost of the police participation in the state opening of Parliament."
The journalist told me that the answer was £284,000.
Later that day, I received a holding answer. The next day, I was told:
"As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister stated in his reply to the hon. Member … any additional costs of police staff who took part in the ceremony are not separately costed."—[Official Report, 20 November 1996: Vol. 285, c. 621.]
I am holding a letter that was sent from one department of the Metropolitan police to another. The heading is "Parliamentary question: Mr. Paul Flynn, Newport, West." The letter contains the answer that was reported to the Metropolitan police committee, on 15 November—three days before—and provides not only a detailed answer and the total cost, but even further details. It is one of the fullest answers that one could receive.
The Home Office, however, has not yet answered my question, and it has deliberately withheld that information from the House. The Department's reply is a deliberate, calculated untruth. If I were speaking outside the House, I would describe it as a lie.
It is outrageous to treat Back Benchers in that way, forcing us to ask question after question to get information and then deceiving us. I hope that the House can inquire into that, and will consider the Metropolitan police's comment that the spending is excessive and unnecessary.
Madam Speaker: I have listened with care to the hon. Gentleman's point. He seems to have an argument with the Minister concerned. It is not a point of order, but I am concerned by the issue that he has raised. I hope that those on the Treasury Bench have noted the matter. If the hon. Gentleman gives me the information, I shall see what I can do about it.
Mr. Alan Duncann): On a point of order, Madam Speaker. During Prime Minister's questions this afternoon, there was a disturbance in the Gallery, which was echoed by confusion on the Floor of the House, as a result of which you exercised your authority from the Chair. I was not able to see exactly what took place amidst that confusion, but will you confirm that your ruling was that the hon. Member for Ceredigion and Pembroke, North (Mr. Dafis) was

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expelled from the House for the rest of today's sitting, following which you reprimanded and cautioned those other hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond), who also broke into applause?
Madam Speaker: The hon. Gentleman has not quite got it right.
Mr. Alex Salmond rose—
Madam Speaker: Hold on. I can deal with this.
The hon. Gentleman has not quite got it correct. I was cautioning hon. Members—there were more than one of them—who were applauding an interruption. I do not approve of hon. Members applauding an interruption to the proceedings of the House. I gave a caution. I did not use the Standing Order. I am rather more ferocious than I thought I appeared to be. The hon. Member for Ceredigion and Pembroke, North (Mr. Dafis) seemed rather intimidated and got up and went out. I wish that hon. Members would do that more frequently. I have not expelled him from the House for the remainder of the day. I cautioned him.
Mr. Salmond: Further to that point of order, Madam Speaker. My interpretation of what you have said is that you were giving a yellow card rather than a red card. As one of those who has had a red card in the past, I appreciate the difference. In terms of order, even in unparliamentary terms, I can think of worse things in the House than applause for a small nation that is suffering genocide—one is school sneaks on the Conservative Benches.
Madam Speaker: I disapprove of interruptions to the proceedings of the House. Now we are going to move on.
Mr. Andrew Faulds: Further to that point of order, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: There can be no further points of order. I have dealt with the matter.
Mr. Faulds rose—
Madam Speaker: Order. If the hon. Gentleman has another point of order, I shall take it.
Mr. Faulds: It is the same issue.
Madam Speaker: In that case, we must go on with the ten-minute rule motion.

Local Authorities (Youth Expenditure)
4.32 pm
Mr. Andrew Rowe: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require local authorities to take into account the priorities of young people in allocating expenditure.
The Bill addresses one of the important political issues of our day. While we here debate the management of the great public services such as health, education, housing or social security, a silent revolution is occurring which, if left unnoticed for much longer, could destroy this place and render all that we do here of no effect.
The young people of the nation do not feel involved in the government of the country. Not only do they despise us politicians; they refuse to vote in elections. At the last general election, the number of 18 to 24-year-olds who did not vote rose to 45 per cent. There are signs that they will be joined in their indifference by the succeeding cohort of first-time voters. If those trends continue, the claim of this place to represent the nation will be badly undermined.
While we spend much of our time here passing laws to regulate in finest detail the acceptable materials for building houses in areas of special landscape importance or the breeds of dog that can or cannot be bought in pet shops, the future of our democratic society is coming into question. Our young people are steadily marching away from electoral involvement. The aim of the Bill is to arrest that desertion.
Under the Bill, local authorities would be required to set aside a proportion of their revenue support grant income for expenditure requested by young people. Unlike existing arrangements for funding the youth service, for example, the money could be spent only in response to proposals submitted by young people. If they knew that some of their ideas were assured of funding, they would have an incentive to connect with the political process. At the moment, only a tiny handful of would-be career politicians and a slightly larger number of single-issue enthusiasts see any purpose in taking part in politics.
Wherever I go, I meet young people who ask why politicians pay no attention to them. "You never ask us what we think. Even if you occasionally do, you don't pay any attention to our ideas, and nothing changes," they say. The younger generation have no desire to run society, but they want to be taken seriously by those who do.
In May, an ad hoc organisation, Heirs to the Millennium, which I chair, set out to collect young people's ideas for party manifestos, and submitted them to the party leaders. The young predicted that nothing would come of it. They will all be mightily surprised if they are taken seriously by the party policy-makers, and even more surprised if any effort is made to tell them what part their suggestions played in the discussions. Their justified cynicism is one reason why I am introducing the Bill.
Some local authorities are beginning to think about how consultation might be introduced. In Croydon, for example, an alliance of the mayor and Madam Speaker's predecessor—it is no surprise that it was my right hon. and noble Friend Lord Weatherill who set up the Speaker's commission on citizenship—has established

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a forum for young people, which is beginning to have some influence on how the authority creates policy. Leeds and York have taken some steps, and I understand that a group in Edinburgh is trying to establish a youth parliament. In Birmingham, the city council convened a young people's group to discuss the budget and was salutarily asked by one 17-year-old how it had managed to lose several million pounds that was unaccounted for.
In my experience, young people nearly always have valuable ideas to offer and new insights to bring to the problems that bedevil us all. Most local authorities have no idea how to involve young people, and actually could not care less. If local authorities had a sum of money that could be spent only in response to ideas submitted by young people, they would undoubtedly facilitate the creation of channels for collecting and evaluating such ideas.
The matter is urgent. With every year that passes, we are pushing the age at which young people become self-determining adults further and further into middle age. For many of the most able and creative people in Britain, the age at which they feel welcome to play a responsible part in adult society is beyond the age at which Pitt became Prime Minister, and close to the age at which Alexander the Great died. Add to that the pressures on them when they first enter work, which discourage them from taking an active role in the cumbersome and time-consuming structures through which we normally work, and it can be seen how huge is the swathe of people whose opinions and experiences we disregard.
I use the word "experience" advisedly, because there are many areas of modern life in which the young alone have any serious "street cred". Who, for example, knows about drugs in the playground or the disco, or gangs or bullying—the young, who experience such things every day, or Members of Parliament, councillors and local government officials? For most of us, the youth culture that creates so many tensions in our communities is a closed book. If we are lucky, it may be selectively opened for us by our children. We have virtually no first-hand experience of its dangers and opportunities.
I believe that, if we required local authorities to hypothecate a sum of money to be released solely on the application of young people, we would kill several birds with one stone. We would encourage young people to make sensible plans to improve the communities in which they live; we would give them a sense of ownership of what was done as a result; we would find all sorts of new ways in which to approach some of our problems or be reassured that we were not missing obvious tricks.
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I have no doubt that many councillors and council officers will panic at the idea and claim that, with all the many claims on council resources, there is no scope for any other activity, and they will be paranoid about the chance of some of the money being wasted. To argue thus is to argue mindlessly.
Everyone in the House can quote appalling examples of spectacular wastefulness that has been incurred by the very people who are the quickest to refuse to give responsibility to others. I have little doubt that the cost of meetings called simply to monitor the runaway expenditure on the British library exceeds any sum that is likely to be made available to young people if my Bill were to become law.
I am not suggesting additional expenditure. Indeed, I would be out of order to do so in a ten-minute Bill. I merely suggest that some of the money currently spent would be at least as well spent at the instance of young people. I believe that, if young people were given the responsibility for putting into practice ideas that they themselves had put forward and could call on the sort of support available to councillors, we would see a cost-effectiveness in delivering those projects that would be the envy of many local authority auditors.
We have to find new ways to make our young people able and willing to share in the governance of this land. After all, they will inherit it. They will have to pick up our mistakes, and will have to look after us in our old age. If we leave them on the outside and dismiss their hopes, fears, ideas and aspirations as irrelevant to the serious business of politics, we may wake up one day to find this place and all its local authority creations up and down the country sent packing by a generation whose views of our meanderings would echo Oliver Cromwell's.
My Bill is a tiny step towards demonstrating real interest in the younger generation and a small attempt to enlist their enthusiasm, experience, competence and idealism in solving the problems that we here find so hard to deal with. I hope that the House will give me leave to introduce it.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Andrew Rowe, Mr. David Alton, Mr. Hugh Bayley, Mr. Tim Devlin, Mr. Simon Hughes, Sir Jim Lester and Mr. Stephen Timms.

LOCAL AUTHORITIES (YOUTH EXPENDITURE)
Mr. Andrew Rowe accordingly presented a Bill to require local authorities to take into account the priorities of young people in allocating expenditure: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Friday 7 February and to be printed [Bill 46].
Orders of the Day
  WAYS AND MEANS
  Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question [26 November].

  AMENDMENT OF THE LAW
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That it is expedient to amend the law with respect to the National Debt and the public revenue and to make further provision in connection with finance; but this Resolution does not extend to the making of any amendment with respect to value added tax so as to provide—

  (a) for zero-rating or exempting a supply, acquisition or importation;

  (b) for refunding an amount of tax;

  (c) for varying any rate at which that tax is at any time chargeable; or

  (d) for any relief, other than a relief which—

  (i) so far as it is applicable to goods, applies to goods of every description, and

  (ii) so far as it is applicable to services, applies to services of every description.—[Mr. Kenneth Clarke.]

  Question again proposed.

  Budget Resolutions and Economic Situation
  [Relevant document: European Community Document No. 9002/96, concerning the Council Recommendation to the United Kingdom with a view to bringing an end to the situation of an excessive government deficit in the United Kingdom, prepared in accordance with Article 104c(7) of the Treaty establishing the European Community.]
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Geoffrey Lofthouse): I must tell the House that Madam Speaker has selected amendment (d) in the name of the Leader of the Opposition to the first Ways and Means motion. It may be convenient if at this stage I also announce that Madam Speaker has selected the amendment in the name of Leader of the Opposition to motion number 2 on public expenditure which is being debated with the Budget resolutions. I call Mr. John Prescott.
  Mr. John Prescott: I do not mind speaking first, but I think it is the other way about.
  4.42 pm
  The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr. Michael Heseltine): The House has been treated to an interesting revelation by the deputy leader of the Labour party, who said that he did not mind speaking first. He will not take the slightest notice of the facts I shall put before the House. He is not interested in the truth of my arguments, because he has a propaganda handout from Walworth road that he intends to inflict upon us. It is kind of him to allow me to put the arguments and facts on the record first.
  The House has now been debating the Budget proposals for almost a week, and the debate has shown starkly the difference between the successful policies of the Government and the lack of any credible alternatives from
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  the Opposition. There are two basic reasons why I make such a claim. I shall start with some of the most authoritative independent opinions.
  For example, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development says that, because of the Government's programme of structural reforms, we have
  "a more flexible and less inflation-prone economy".
  The International Monetary Fund says that, in the United Kingdom,
  "recent economic performance has been enviable."
  I accept, of course, that both the IMF and the OECD are academic economic authorities, so perhaps we should concentrate on the views of the people whose investment decisions are measured in hard terms—the bosses of the world's most enterprising companies.
  The chairman of Phillips says that the United Kingdom is the most competitive country in Europe today. The chairman of BMW described the United Kingdom as
  "by far the most attractive place to invest in Europe."
  The chief executive of Siemens has praised the pro-business environment that exists here. Those are the comments that have been made, not by some member of the Government and not even by citizens of the United Kingdom, but by people who have a totally detached view and are responsible for giving their best judgment and backing it with their money. I accept that those opinions are but quotations, so let us talk about some of the facts.
  From every quarter of the globe, the world's great companies are pouring money into the British economy. They are putting money into our economy to bolster tomorrow's industries, whether manufacturing or service. Hyundai has made a £2.4 billion investment in Scotland. Lucky Goldstar has made a £1.7 billion investment in south Wales. Siemens has invested £1.1 billion in the north-east. Fujitsu has invested £800 million in the north-east. Toyota and UPS are each investing some £800 million in the east midlands. BMW and Jaguar are each investing around £400 million in the west midlands.
  The City of London is the world's largest centre for foreign exchange. It is larger than New York and Tokyo combined, with more foreign exchange banks than any other city in the world, and a stock exchange that is the world's largest centre for foreign equities.
  Other industries tell the same story. The tourist industry pulled in a record 24 million overseas visitors to the United Kingdom in 1995, earning around £12.1 billion and, in the process, it arrested and reversed the decline in market share that had happened over many years. If I may borrow a phrase from one of our most successful privatised industries, we are in truth the world's favourite economy.
  The biotechnology industry has sales already in excess of £4 billion, and that figure is set to more than double by the end of 1998. Our aerospace industry, to which the privatised British Aerospace is central, is going from strength to strength, with a 20 per cent. stake in US Air's decision to buy up to 400 airbuses in a deal worth £11 billion. We have an enormous new order for Hawk from Australia.
  We have seen British Telecom's price for calls within the United Kingdom fall by 40 per cent. in real terms since 1984. That privatisation led to the deregulation of the industry and the explosion of activity that followed.

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  We are going further. From the end of this month, any company that wants to run international calls in and out of the United Kingdom will be allowed to do so.
  Britain is the first country in the world to open its international telephone traffic to anyone who wants to provide a service. The consequences of that were accurately reflected in The Independent recently:
  "In a world where manufacturing (and increasingly service) technology crosses national boundaries in a matter of weeks, achieving a comparative advantage in international telecommunications is the most important thing any government can do."
  We have done it, and we have done it in the industries of tomorrow.
  Every statistic that is published offers growing proof that the British people are responding to the most exciting economic prospects that we have seen for a generation. Unemployment is down by almost 1 million. Housing starts are up. House prices are up. We have heard much from the Opposition about negative equity, but the latest figures show that the number of households affected by negative equity is now down more than 80 per cent. on the 1992 peak.
  In the first quarter of 1996—[Interruption.] The deputy leader of the Labour party knows that housing starts have started to rise again. I know that the Opposition are totally uninterested in any facts or figures—[Interruption.] The right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) did not know that I was going to include this subject in my speech, but he may have time to get the figures before he gets to his feet. Housing starts are on the rise again, as shown in the last quarterly figures published.
  We hear nothing now from Labour about negative equity, just as we hear nothing now about unemployment. In the first quarter of this year, the Department of the Environment estimated that about £2 billion of negative equity was outstanding. In the second quarter, that figure fell to £1.5 billion, and I can now tell the House that the latest estimate for the third quarter is that negative equity has fallen to about £600 million. Today's newspapers state that the Halifax building society is reporting that house prices have risen since the last figure was released, with the result that negative equity is now almost a thing of the past.
  Mr. John Garrett: The Deputy Prime Minister has failed to mention that the Housing Corporation's budget has been cut from £1.8 billion two years ago to £600 million in the coming year. He has also failed to admit that the total number of houses built for rent will be some 20,000 in the coming year, and fewer in later years—despite the fact that the Government's own target was for 60,000 a year.
  The Deputy Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman is fully aware that we have re-created the private rented sector in the teeth of opposition from the Labour party. Today, there is a wide range of privately available homes for people on low incomes who are supported with housing rental subsidies.
  We introduced those subsidies in an attempt to change the emphasis of housing support—again, in the teeth of Labour opposition. It is no good for the hon. Gentleman to select one aspect of the housing programme from the
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  whole market. The Government have provided the widest choice of tenure in the housing market seen in this country since the early post-war period. We have been successful in increasing the availability of housing, particularly at the lower end of the marketplace.
  It is not surprising that confidence has returned to the housing industry, as it has to the high street. Retail sales figures are up by 4 per cent. on a year ago, and we have the best growth of any major European Union economy. Let no one believe for one instant that these privileges are somehow restricted to a limited section of society. Looking at the effect of the growth in our economy and the spread of wealth in terms of what it has done to provide real opportunities for real people, the figures are startling.
  In the early 1980s, 73 per cent. of households had a telephone. Today, the figure is well over 90 per cent. When the Government were elected, only 47 per cent. of the population had a freezer. Now, the figure is 88 per cent. Some 58 per cent. had central heating—it is now 84 per cent.; 60 per cent. had a car—it is now nearly 70 per cent. In 1979, 55 per cent. of dwellings were owner-occupied. By last year, that had gone up to 67 per cent.
  We must add to those figures the fast-growing numbers who are taking advantage of new modern technologies. Some 75 per cent. of the population now have a video recorder. Some 64 per cent. have a microwave oven, and 24 per cent. have a home computer—one of the highest incidences anywhere in the world.
  These are the irrefutable facts that show the extent to which widely available improvements in living standards have been created by the growth policies achieved by the Government.
  Mr. Alex Salmond: From the way the Deputy Prime Minister talks, one would think that he had installed all that central heating personally. He said a few seconds ago that the United Kingdom's growth rate was the fastest of the major EU economies. Does he accept that—according to the OECD figures for this year—the United States, Australia, the Czech Republic, Finland, Ireland, Mexico, New Zealand, Norway and Turkey all have faster growth rates than the United Kingdom? Does he further accept that the Irish growth rate—achieved by an EU country—is more than three times that of the United Kingdom?
  The Deputy Prime Minister: I referred to major European growth economies, and I do not see the point in the hon. Gentleman giving a long list of non-European economies. The European economies are the ones with which it is realistic to compare our performance—for no other reason than the fact that 55 to 60 per cent. of all our trade now goes to the EU. Therefore, we are interlinked with the success of that part of the world trading economy. It is within that comparison that the statistics are meaningful, and it is against the standards of those like economies that the Government's policies have proved to be so successful.
  Mr. Matthew Carrington: The only serious economy mentioned by the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond) was the United States, which has a high growth rate and a successful economy because it

  823
  has deregulated and encouraged private enterprise—just as the British Government have been doing. In other words, the hon. Gentleman was suggesting that we should follow the line of the US, not the line advocated by Opposition parties.
  The Deputy Prime Minister: I wholly agree with my hon. Friend; it is the deregulated and low-tax economies with large and vibrant private sectors that have been successful. It is because we have followed our policies—all in the teeth of opposition from the Opposition parties—that we have proved to be such a success.
  It is therefore no surprise that next year, taking into account the latest Budget judgments, a family on average earnings will be £1,100 better off than they were five years ago. On the same basis, the average family will receive an increase of nearly £370 in the coming year, after allowing for inflation and tax.
  Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours: May I ask the Deputy Prime Minister a question about exchange rates? I do not want to draw him on interest rates, as I am sure that he would have every reason for not answering me directly. Is he worried about the rise in the value of sterling, and its implications for competitiveness in British industry?
  The Deputy Prime Minister: One can argue the case both ways. The post-war successes of Japan and Germany have been co-incidental with—or possibly have caused—rising exchange rates. They have invested sufficiently to achieve the productivity to enable the advance to proceed. It can be argued all ways. We know that exchange rates are a reflection of market decisions, and those concerned self-evidently have confidence in the British economy for such an increase to be taking place.
  The vital challenge we now face, given the excellence of the circumstances we enjoy, is how to keep this economic recovery in place. Our record of achieving those results, and the alternative policies from the Opposition, are the matters on which the election campaign will undoubtedly he fought.
  It is important to ask a simple question. What exactly are the policies of the Labour party? Has anyone known, on any one day in any week in any month during the past few years? An hour or so ago, I heard the right hon. Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown), the shadow Chancellor, referring to Government changes of policy for "Today", the 1 o'clock news, "PM" and "News at 10". But nothing could more simply describe the Labour party's view than the way in which, by nods and winks, it has sought to produce its policies over the past few years. Any pressure group, any protest, any wandering journalist—implicit commitments to spend money will be made, or a nod given here and a wink there.
  Let us have some idea of what it all could lead to. I ask for the figures, and it is up to the deputy Leader of the Labour party to answer factual questions on the commitments that Labour has given to overseas aid.
  Mr. Campbell-Savours: Which commitments?
  The Deputy Prime Minister: Labour said in "New Labour, New Life for Britain":
  824
  "Labour will start to reverse the decline in UK aid spending … We will strengthen and restructure the aid programme."
  Labour has also said:
  "In government, Labour will: start to reverse the decline in UK aid spending"
  and:
  "Overseas aid from the Government is slipping … It is a very worrying time and Labour is committed to reversing the trend."
  Clearly, the implication is that more money will be spent. How much more? Or are those commitments a fiction? Until Labour starts to answer those questions, we will continue to believe that the bills we have published are right.
  Let us look at Labour's proposals for the railways. Is this or is this not a commitment:
  "We will give Britain a publicly owned, publicly accountable BR"?
  Mr. Campbell-Savours: When?
  The Deputy Prime Minister: When? At the Labour party conference a few months ago. The speaker was the leader of the Labour party.
  Mr. Campbell-Savours: I was asking when we—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must settle down and not get too excited.
  The Deputy Prime Minister: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I can understand the excitement that the hon. Gentleman gets from my speech, and he is right, because over months—indeed, over years—Labour has implied that it will spend money on programme after programme. How can the leader of the Labour party say that he believes in a publicly owned railway, without facing the fact that it costs money to renationalise railways?
  We have made it clear that, in our view, the Labour party's commitments are vast. We have published our calculations, and the easy way for Labour Members to deny them is to give the alternative figures that they have worked out; if they have not worked out the figures, they should withdraw all the commitments.
  Labour Members clearly believe that Labour Governments can achieve what they want without spending money: they can give teachers sabbaticals and pay for it out of existing resources; they can renationalise the railways—that is what the leader of the Labour party said—for nothing; and they can have a minimum wage and save money by doing it. Perhaps, by adding a lot of people to the unemployment queue, as Labour's deputy leader believes would happen, some money could be saved, but that is a harsh way of doing it.
  The Labour party has made 89 spending promises, and everybody knows that, in the end, all Labour Governments put up taxes. We can see why that is the case, as Labour spokesmen make commitments that would lead to higher taxes if ever they got to power. They suggest that—in their language—a windfall tax could pay for their commitments, but that tax is yet another Phoney implied promise. How can cash be taken out of the pockets of British companies without either putting up prices or cutting investment? How can investment be cut without destroying jobs?

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  New Labour means new taxes—and a lot of them. There is the tartan tax; or has Labour abandoned that? It is committed to a tartan tax, but why should the Scots pay more than the rest of us, for the privilege of trying to buy off the Scottish National party? There is to be a telephone tax, called a windfall tax, and a teenage tax, as child benefit is withdrawn. All those taxes are clearly set out in commitments made by the Labour party.
  We were promised details once the Budget was over. The right hon. Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown) clearly said that he would produce the details, but all we heard was a new commitment to lower the rate of value added tax on domestic fuel. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I hear the support for that proposal from Labour Members and from the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond), the leader of the Scottish nationalists, who is ahead of the game and knows what I am about to say, because his party made exactly the same proposal in 1994.
  At that time, no less a figure than the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Central (Mr. Darling), the shadow Chief Secretary—I hope that I am not offending him, because I quote only from Hansard, which I assume to be accurate—said that the proposal to cut VAT on fuel, which is now official Labour party policy, was a
  "cynical ploy from an increasingly opportunist and desperate party."—[Official Report, 23 January 1995; Vol. 253, c. 49.]
  That is the shadow Chief Secretary's verdict on the shadow Chancellor, and they are still in opposition. I know that there were plenty of arguments between the leader of the Labour party and his deputy, but this is ridiculous.
  Mr. Alistair Darling rose—
  The Deputy Prime Minister: No, no, no. Why should we have the monkey when we can have the organ grinder? The hon. Member for Edinburgh, Central is to wind up for his party—perhaps he is wound up—so he will have every chance to speak.
  Mr. Prescott: You named him.
  The Deputy Prime Minister: Very well, then—I give way to the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Central.
  Mr. Darling: I am extremely grateful to the Deputy Prime Minister, who has reluctantly given way. Some people read Hansard, so perhaps I should take the opportunity to set him right.
  I accept that I criticised the leader of the Scottish National party in 1995, and I stand by every word of what I said. The House will recall that, at that time, the issue before us was whether to support the Labour amendment to reduce value added tax to 8 per cent.; the success of that amendment depended on getting Tory rebels, which we did. What the nationalists did then was cynical, but we are extending our commitment to protect people who have to pay more VAT on domestic fuel as a result of broken Tory promises.
  The Deputy Prime Minister: Any time that I can give way to the shadow Chief Secretary, give me the chance to do so. I have never heard such humbug in my life. It was perfectly all right to try to con the Scottish
  826
  nationalists and a few Tory Back Benchers in order to pursue some devious device four years ago, but it suddenly becomes totally reprehensible when it is done today. That is new Labour in its starkest, clearest clothing. I dare say that the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Central would not have said what he did, and revealed exactly what sort of shadow Chief Secretary he is, had the shadow Chancellor been here.
  The truth is that the shadow Chancellor has gone further in his suggestions about what can be announced by way of policy. He has been quite specific about the 5 per cent. VAT, so why can he not answer the other questions? If he has done the calculations and knows how much he has to allow for by way of lost revenue on VAT, he must know where the balancing figures are to come from. He has done his homework and has the figures, and there is a vast range of subjects on which he could be specific, so why does not he tell us about them?
  Perhaps the shadow Chancellor has been talking to the deputy leader of the Labour party, who said that nothing would be announced before the general election—apart from the good news. He was perfectly prepared to announce the 5 per cent. VAT, but any fool knows not to announce the bad news, such as what is to happen with occupational pension schemes, contributions to personal schemes, corporation tax, employers' national insurance and a range of other taxation issues, all of which, I assume, a prudent and cautious shadow Chancellor—as, we are told, the right hon. Member for Dunfermline, East is—must have worked out before coming up with the cynical announcement he made, despite all the vagaries of the shadow Chief Secretary's views.
  The House and the country will not be fooled. We all know that every Labour Government increase taxes. Some of my right hon. and hon. Friends were here in 1979 when we went through the Lobbies to force the dying Labour Government to reduce income tax from 34p to 33p in the pound. We have been in power for quite a long time since then, and the standard rate is down to 23p in the pound and falling; today, 7 million people pay only 20p in the pound. Nobody seriously believes for an instant that any of that would have happened under a Labour Government.
  I see that the shadow Chancellor has returned to the Chamber. He may be interested to know that the shadow Chief Secretary has just explained why his latest plans to set VAT at 5 per cent. Were described as a
  "cynical ploy from an increasingly opportunist and desperate party."—[Official Report, 23 January 1995; Vol. 253, c. 49.]
  I believe that he was the shadow Chancellor at the time, so perhaps he will want to have discussions later behind the Speaker's Chair about his future relationship with the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Central.
  Between 1974 and 1979, inflation was on average 15.5 per cent. Today, we have the best inflation record for a generation: less than 4 per cent. for more than four years.
  Mr. Robert Sheldon: The Deputy Prime Minister will be aware that, over the past 12 months, the pound has risen by 14 per cent., which has made imports much cheaper and exports much dearer, creating problems for our manufacturing industry. Cheaper imports will obviously reduce inflation and bring down the retail price index. Goldman Sachs assumes that the reduction will be about 1 per cent., so 2.5 per cent.

  827
  inflation would have been 3.5 per cent. if the Government had not increased the value of the pound. That success has been achieved at the expense of our manufacturing industry.
  The Deputy Prime Minister: I am trying to work out whether the right hon. Gentleman is complaining. Is he against the pound being strong? Would he like it to be run down? The simple way to depreciate the pound is to threaten people with a Labour Government. Go back to the old days of high inflation and see what that does to our currency. The statistics we use have been common to all parties, and show that we have the best inflation record for a generation. I know that that sticks in the throat of the Labour party, as do all the figures of success.
  Our exports are at a record high, despite the pound's appreciation. Does the Labour party favour that? The shadow Chancellor has had to try to find ways to add to his campaign to undermine Britain's performance. The way in which he constantly seeks to undermine British industrial capability and British service industries is an insult. He has to find the worst conceivable examples of any exceptions.
  The other day, he found an extraordinary survey that put our education record 42nd in the world. Some of his surveys are interesting. I have done some homework. The survey he cited shows that Turkey is second for equal opportunities, and placed the policies of the French Government ahead of those of the United States for their grasp of economic realities. So that we do not get carried away, the survey put Britain below China for the openness of national culture.
  No serious commentator would take a blind bit of notice of such surveys. The Labour party cannot stand the truth about the success of the British economy. Again, these are not Government statistics, but on my desk yesterday I had some figures from the Chartered Institute of Purchasing and Supply, which has nothing to do with the Government or the Conservative party. It helpfully set out the Government's record, right from start to finish, and that of the previous Government.
  The figures show that annual growth in manufacturing output under the previous Government was minus 0.5 per cent.; since 1979, it has been 0.7 per cent.—despite the recession. The annual growth in manufacturing productivity under the previous Government was 1.5 per cent.; under this Government, it is 3.4 per cent. The most important test of competitiveness is enhanced productivity.
  The figures then consider annual growth in manufacturing exports—the test of what foreigners think of our products. In 1974–79, it was 2 per cent. per annum; under this Government, it is 4.6 per cent. per annum. That is the clearest possible indication of the success that we have enabled British men and women at work to achieve in the marketplaces of the world, despite the toughening competition that everyone knows exists.
  The challenge we face today is to preserve the economic disciplines that enable our economy to grow faster than those of our European competitors and faster than it has characteristically grown in the post-war world, and to pursue policies that will contain inflation and enhance our competitiveness. Everyone who has
  828
  commented—I mean commented seriously—on the changes of recent years knows that it is the success of our economic and structural policies that has led to our remarkable inward and self-generated national investment.
  We now have the highest inward and outward investment, relative to gross domestic product, of any G7 country. Since 1979, business investment has increased by more than 50 per cent. Whole-economy investment under the previous Government grew by 0.3 per cent. a year; it now grows by 1.7 per cent. a year—six times as fast, and faster than any other major European Union country.
  That achievement is, of course, greatly reinforced by the remarkable success of the nationalised industries now that they are in private hands. In one case after the other, there have been massive improvements in investment: British Telecom, £27 billion since privatisation; the regional electricity companies, £1 billion a year; and Railtrack, the new success of privatisation, expects to spend more than £8 billion on infrastructure to April 2001.
  The answer of the Labour party is to give us a publicly owned, publicly accountable British Rail. The leader of the Labour party said that only a month ago. Nothing is more calculated to restore indifferent services and inadequate investment in the railways than taking them back into public ownership. Of course, we all know that they could not dream of affording to do it. It is only another sop to the unions upon whose support Labour depends.
  So the story continues. I have talked about the need to keep the disciplines necessary to preserve our economic success. Equally, in other vital areas of the economy, on which the Budget has concentrated, we must preserve disciplines to improve standards. That is nowhere more true than in respect of our education system.
  The Labour party cannot face the simple but inescapable truth that we can improve education only by accepting that the same head teachers, in the same schools, with the same teachers and the same children, have to improve their performance. We have shown that the right, and only, way is to insist upon a national curriculum, testing and the publication of results, and to give teachers and parents maximum discretion over their own budgets.
  Of course there are people in the education world who resist the changes; of course the Labour party resisted every one of them. Labour does not like the publication of results, because it foresaw, with precisely the clarity that we did, that, once we let the public in and trusted people with information, the public would insist on raising standards in our schools. That is why standards are rising.
  Everyone knows that one in three of our young people today go into higher education, against one in eight when Labour was in power. People know that a record 53.7 per cent. of pupils achieved five or more GCSEs at grades A to C this year, and that the A-level pass rate this year was nearly 86 per cent.—up from 68 per cent. in 1980. But the Labour party proposes to reverse all the proposals that have brought about those changes by putting local authorities back in charge: the very people who presided over the decline in the first place.
  Labour wants to abolish the assisted places scheme—one of its most vicious proposals. It is a piece of social engineering in keeping with its decision to abolish choice

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  in education in the 1960s. It thought then that it would benefit the inner cities by closing the grammar schools, some of the best schools in the country. It is little surprise that it did not work. Parents with the ability to choose chose to leave the inner cities and move their children from inner-city comprehensives to suburban ones.
  No one knows that better than the leader of the Labour party, because he is the epitome of what happens if one tries to imprison children in schools that their parents believe to be of inadequate quality. Parents take their children away, just as he did; but now he wants to stop other parents doing precisely what he believed to be right.
  It is characteristic of the Opposition that, on every gesture and policy, they are hellbent on reversing the changes that have made Britain the enterprise centre of Europe.
  They are going to put Labour councils back in charge of the business rates. We all know what will happen: up will go the business rates. They are going to impose new, unwanted, unnecessary costs on local taxpayers and local industries in authorities in Scotland, Wales, London and the English regions.
  The Labour party has no concept of the increased global competition to which the British economy and all others are increasingly subject. To meet that competition, we have delivered a Budget that is another courageous step forward in building the most exciting economic prospects that any of us have seen for Britain.
  We as a Government deliver what we promise. We said that we would deliver higher standards. As promised, the average family has £700 more to spend after tax and inflation this year than at the time of the last election. We said that we would get inflation down. As promised, the underlying rate of inflation has been below 4 per cent. for longer than at any time in the past 50 years. That has helped us to bring mortgage rates down to their lowest for 30 years.
  We said that we would re-create a flexible labour market. As promised, more jobs have been created. We have the lowest unemployment rate of any major European Union economy. We said that we would cut tax on earnings. As promised, we have made progress towards the goal of a 20p basic rate for all. We have increased the 20p band and cut the basic rate by 10p to 23p since 1979. Now one in four income tax payers pay tax at only 20p.
  We said that we would control public spending and the size of the state. As promised, public spending as a share of gross domestic product is on a downward trend. It peaked at 47.25 per cent. in the 1970s. We are set to get it below 40 per cent. and keep it there. As promised, we are laying the foundations for five more years of low inflation, rising employment, improving living standards and lasting prosperity, but we will also deliver the essential prerequisite for five more years of success, and that is five more years of Conservative government.
  5.21 pm
  Mr. John Prescott: I beg to move amendment (d), in paragraph (c), after "chargeable", insert:
  "other than an amendment for the reduction to five per cent. of the rate chargeable on fuel and power for domestic or charity use".
  We have heard a characteristic speech from the Deputy Prime Minister. By a generous interpretation, 15 minutes of his 40-minute speech were devoted to his
  830
  Government's Budget. Naturally, he wanted to ask us what we would do, but I should point out to him that the debate, like the debates that we have had all week, is about the Government's Budget, and we intend to discuss it.
  This debate follows the debate on the Chancellor's statement on the ECOFIN meeting. We congratulate the Deputy Prime Minister and the Chancellor on the way in which they appear to have ambushed the Prime Minister today, thereby showing once and for all that the Prime Minister is weak and at the mercy of one faction one clay and another faction another. The facts appear to be correct. We have a Prime Minister who gets pushed from one day to another. That is exactly what we saw from the Chancellor's report on the ECOFIN meeting.
  Mr. Peter Luff: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Prescott: I hope to give way shortly, but I should make a start.
  The Deputy Prime Minister and the Chancellor have made clear the Government's case for the Budget. I put it to the House that it is not an honest Budget to help ordinary, hard-working families but an unfair Budget for the few and not for the many. It does not strengthen the economy or equip Britain for the future. On the contrary, it discourages investment. That is the charge that we lay against the Budget. It is based on the old Tory formula—give with one hand and take with the other, mortgaging our future to pay for their economic incompetence. That proves once again to the British people that they are worse off under the Tories.
  The Deputy Prime Minister gave a litany of proposals. Why is it that the country at large does not recognise the record that he described to the House? It is not recognised, whether it is put to the test in elections or in opinion polls. People do not believe what the Tories say about the economy. The people of Britain will judge the Government not on one week or five years of government but on 18 Budgets over 17 years.
  The purpose of Tory Budgets was set in 1979 by Chancellor Howe in his first Budget. He said that the aim of the Tory Government was to end the relative decline of the British economy. The Deputy Prime Minister has sought to show that they have achieved that. The Chancellor said last week:
  "The British economy is in its fifth successive year of steady, healthy economic growth … These are the best circumstances we have faced for a generation … It is a Rolls-Royce recovery and it is built to last."—[Official Report, 26 November 1996; Vol. 286, c. 154.]
  That is what he told us, and that is the point that we are asked to debate here today.
  The Deputy Prime Minister made a great point of saying how much was paid in overseas aid. If the economy is as successful and strong as he says and we are doing so well, it is a disgrace that the Budget contains even further cuts in overseas aid, which is desperately needed in many parts of the world.
  What is the real truth of this matter? On Wednesday the Chief Secretary to the Treasury gave us a selective comparison of unemployment among the G7 countries. It was the only statistic from the G7 that he used. If he widens his horizons, he will find that overall the last

  831
  Labour Government had a better record on employment and unemployment than the Tory Government, whether the figures are relative to other countries or absolute. That is not a matter that is contested. If the Deputy Prime Minister wishes to contest it, I am prepared to give way to him.
  The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. William Waldegrave): As the right hon. Gentleman is interested in history, can he remind me whether any Labour Government ever left unemployment lower than they found it?
  Mr. Prescott: I am sorry. I did not hear the right hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Waldegrave: With the exception of the Labour Government in power at the time of demobilisation after the war, there has never been a Labour Government who left unemployment lower than they found it?
  Mr. Prescott: As a matter of history, since the right hon. Gentleman is interested in history, the Labour Government were the first ever to sustain full employment in the British economy. We maintained full employment following Tory Governments and sustained it for two decades. The level of employment was always greater under us. Most Governments can claim that because there is an increase in population during their period of office. However, the Tory Government have claimed that somehow unemployment is far lower in Britain than in other countries and that they lead the way in putting people back to work.
  We have had mention of the G7 countries. As the Chief Secretary said, we are third out of the seven in terms of unemployment. That may be so, but we are sixth in the European Union and 14th in the 22 OECD countries. That is hardly a good record. That it is middling along is the best that can be said for it. Our position is certainly worse than under the Labour Government, whether one contrasts relative, average or absolute figures.
  It is absolute nonsense for the Tories to claim that they have a better record on unemployment, particularly when we have 1 million more unemployed than in 1979, after 17 years of Tory government. So let us hear no more silly nonsense about the Tory Government's contribution to reducing unemployment.
  The Chief Secretary chose to point out the G7 figures on the level of unemployment, but if he had chosen inflation, he would have found that we were sixth and falling. We are sixth in terms of interest rates and falling and we are at the bottom in terms of the level of investment compared with the G7 countries. I should have thought that those figures and indices were of equal importance to any successful economy.
  If we look at comparisons with OECD or EU countries, we are not in the top part in any way. We are middling or down at the bottom of the tables. So it is not right for the Tories constantly to give wrong information. The Chief Secretary to the Treasury has not always been careful with his language or his information to the House, but on this occasion it is right for us to point out that he did not give us the entire truth.
  The Deputy Prime Minister: As we are quoting international comments and the right hon. Gentleman is
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  talking about inflation, it is worth pointing out that the OECD survey for 1979, talking about a Labour Government, said:
  "The most pressing problem is inflation, and its reduction must be regarded as a first priority for economic policy".
  The OECD now says:
  "inflation performance over the past four years has been remarkably good".
  Mr. Prescott: I am quite prepared to admit that, if we look at inflation over a couple of decades, going back to the oil price hike period, inflation is certainly better now. We welcome that—make no mistake, we want low inflation—but if we look at the overall record of the Labour Government elected in 1974, we see that they were successful in reducing high rates of inflation. If we look at the first two years of the Conservative Government elected in 1979, we see that inflation shot up from approximately 7 per cent. to nearly 28 per cent., primarily because they increased the rate of value added tax.
  I remind Conservative Members that, in the 1979 election, the Daily Mail listed the 10 lies that Labour was telling, and one of those was that the Tories would increase VAT. Despite their continual denials, the first thing that the Tories did when they entered office was to increase value added tax. They continued to deny it and continued to increase it, and this Budget continues down that road.
  We can be selective in our use of statistics. Where there have been improvements, we welcome them—why should we not? If we are achieving lower inflation, that is acceptable; but it is right for us to point out that the price of that is higher unemployment and great difficulty in managing the public finances. That is what the Budget has had to contend with, and I shall deal with that point shortly.
  After 17 years of Tory government, we have fallen in the international leagues to which the Deputy Prime Minister has referred. We have fallen from 13th to 18th in the world prosperity league. I know that there are arguments about that point—previously, at Question Time, the Deputy Prime Minister has made the case for saying that, in fact, we have fallen only to 15th place. Okay, I accept that; but our position is poor and we are falling further down the league. Despite all that he has been saying about the past 17 years, we have fallen in that league table from 13th place to 15th or to 18th, whatever the right hon. Gentleman prefers.
  We languish at 42nd place in respect of education and training—that is an indictment of Tory policies. On investment, about which the Deputy Prime Minister has spoken at length, we are 22nd out of the 25 OECD nations. We are near the bottom of that international league. Even the Chancellor has clearly admitted that investment has tended to flatten out and that he has not achieved the sort of investment levels—especially in manufacturing—that he had hoped to achieve.
  On interest rates, we have fallen from fifth to ninth in Europe, with interest rates twice as high as those in Germany or France. That has been true throughout the lifetime of this Government. Our share of world trade has gone down, not up. It has fallen from 5.4 per cent. in 1979 to 4.8 per cent. today. Those are not the indices and signs of success. We can all agree that the economy faces

  833
  problems—for decades, Governments have had difficulty with the balance of payments, the balance of trade, inflation and unemployment—but the present Government's claim that there have been major and fundamental changes in the economy is not reflected in international indices. That is our point.
  The Tories record must be judged in the light of the massive revenues from North sea oil and privatisation—the equivalent of a quarter of a billion pounds a week, every week, for the 16 years that they have been in office. It was always thought that, when North sea oil came on tap, it would be a major advantage for whichever Government were then in office. We would get the virtuous circle that the Tories talk about, because the money would be used for investment, reducing unemployment and getting the public finances in a proper state.
  Where has all that money gone? All we ever hear from the Government is what they have done to cut taxes—I shall talk about that in a minute. That is how they have wasted the money. They have not used it for long-term investment, but given it away to their friends, especially those on high incomes. That is the record of the Tory Government.
  I notice that the Budget contains every variety of what the Financial Times called
  "creative accounting and wishful thinking."
  There is certainly much evidence of the Government doing that to try to delay or conceal the ways in which we will all have to pay for their incompetence. We realise that the privatisation of the student debt and the Army housing leaseback are ways in which the public sector borrowing requirement can be reduced.
  The Government's assumption of falling unemployment is unprecedented. No Government have done that before. This Government have said, year after year, that it is impossible to predict what the level of unemployment will be in future years—why have they given a prediction this year? They did it for one very good reason: they made the prediction so as to enable them to make an assessment of savings on social security and unemployment benefit, which can then be fed into the process of balancing the books on public sector financing. That is the sole reason why it was done.
  I have to smile because, in last week's debate on the utilities, the Deputy Prime Minister asked, where would the money come from? The money raised in one year from the utilities could be spent over three or four years. When I suggested that it might be possible to save money by paying people who have been given work, instead of having to pay benefits when they are on the dole, I was laughed out of court—but my argument lies at the heart of the Budget's attempt to save £800 million. We know that, going into the next millennium, we will still have 1.6 million unemployed people, which is 60 per cent. more than Labour had in 1979.
  Mr. Edward Leigh: Will the right hon. Gentleman, as deputy leader of the Labour party, match the Government's commitment to increase spending on health in real terms every year?
  Mr. Prescott: Anyone who has read the Budget debate so far will know that that commitment is a contestable point. If it is a promise, I am bound to say that the Government's record on keeping their promises and on predictions of the public sector borrowing requirement and future expenditure is woefully inadequate. I would not believe anything a Tory Government told me about anything. I have to accept statements made in the House, but do not expect me to believe Tory promises—they told us that they would not increase VAT, but they are doing it again. Anyone who looks at the proportion of expenditure that goes to the health service will know that resources have not increased at all.
  Let me turn to a measure in which, no doubt, the Deputy Prime Minister played a part—spend to save. That is an interesting term and, from a man who spent a lot of time telling people to delay paying their debts, it is a good term. It is a subject with which the right hon. Gentleman is extremely conversant—spend to save and keep the money going longer.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown) was ridiculed when he argued in favour of closing tax loopholes. Does not spend to save mean the same as closing tax loopholes? The Chancellor called it the politics of "Alice in Wonderland". He said that he was not Santa Claus, but now he is Alice in Wonderland—looking at him now, I have to say that that requires some imagination. The Government have pinched a relevant Labour idea because they are desperately trying to balance the books—something that they have constantly failed to achieve, year after year. I shall come to the public sector borrowing requirement in a second.
  Of course, there are doubts about whether it is possible to raise £6.5 billion, which is the figure that the commentators have been writing about. At the end of the day, it all comes down to predictions on public finances, on which the Government's record is poor.
  Let us take the public sector borrowing requirement, which is always used when the Government are stating their desire to balance the Budget. In 1992, before the election, they said that the PSBR would be £32 billion in the year to follow; in fact, it was £45 billion. They said that it would be £25 billion in 1993, but it was actually £36 billion. This year, it was supposed to be £6 billion, but it has turned out to be £26.5 billion. The Government may not be especially successful at balancing the Budget, but they are much worse at making predictions—their accuracy is deplorable.
  There is a growing fear that the Chancellor will be forced by the markets to raise interest rates to meet his implied inflation figure. The real test of the Budget must be its effect on the real economy.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Kenneth Clarke): The right hon. Gentleman is criticising our record on the public sector borrowing requirement and referring to the Red Book. Is the Labour party committed to keeping to the spending totals for Departments set out in the Red Book? Is Labour forswearing increasing any of those spending totals, given the right hon. Gentleman's concern about our record on public sector borrowing?
  Mr. Prescott: The proper reply would be to say that the answer to that question will be made clear at the beginning of next year. The Chancellor has made a fair

  835
  point, but even he will recognise that the projections for public spending raise serious doubts about how the money is to be raised. What he promises now may not be achieved after the election—but that is the old Tory trick. What the Tories promise before the election they have to readjust afterwards. But the debts have to be paid. The promises on public expenditure come now, and they must be paid for later.
  Every Chancellor has done the same. I must tell the right hon. and learned Gentleman that what he does is not unique. It is almost what has caused the boom and bust in the British economy, as Chancellors have geared themselves to the electoral cycle rather than to the needs of the nation. That is evident from most of the figures in the Red Book.
  Mr. Campbell-Savours: Does my right hon. Friend recall the promises made in the autumn statement of 1991—promises that were reversed the following June? A series of promises, covering all Departments, was made, but every commitment on public expenditure made before the election was withdrawn after the campaign was over. We remember.
  Mr. Prescott: Yes, I remember. That was the former Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Thames (Mr. Lamont), who fought me in an election in Kingston upon Hull in the 1970s. People in Hull did not believe him then, and we should not have believed his projections when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, either. No doubt the present Chancellor has learnt all those techniques, and means to deploy them.
  Mr. Kenneth Clarke: They are not techniques. If the Labour party wishes to do better than the Government on public sector borrowing, it must either take public sector spending down or put taxation up. It does not even have a commitment to keep public spending down to where it is now. Will taxation be put up, so as to improve our performance on public sector borrowing?
  Mr. Prescott: That is certainly a question posed by the right hon. and learned Gentleman's Budget. It is a question that he would face if he were Chancellor after the election, but we do not think that he will be.
  There is another option, and we have it here. It is called a utility tax. We can impose a tax on obscene profits and use the resources to put people back to work. We would not have to pay so much to keep people on the unemployment register, and there would be a different order of priorities within public expenditure. I call that the virtuous circle, although it is not what the Government mean by that term.
  Mr. John Townend: The right hon. Gentleman talks about a utility tax. Will he answer a question that the right hon. Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett) refused to answer yesterday? Will he give a copper-bottomed guarantee that the "utility tax" will apply only to companies that have been privatised? If not, does it mean that, if I bought half a million pounds, worth of claret and the price doubled, I would have to pay a windfall tax?
  Mr. Prescott: I know that, as an accountant, the hon. Gentleman would like to be accurate about what he thinks
  836
  the tax would cover. My right hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown) made that clear. I do not believe that the hon. Member for Bridlington (Mr. Townend) was here last week when we discussed the utilities under a motion tabled by the Government. We talked about the definition of what constitutes utilities. With regard to privatised utilities, we shall make a judgment at the proper time, talking to the regulators and to the industries.
  The idea is not new. I must remind the hon. Gentleman that the 1981 Budget included the banks tax. I think that he was in the House then, and voted in favour. When he voted for that tax he did not ask what it would apply to, or at what rate. He simply agreed to tax an obscene profit—although he would not say that, because Tories would not use those words. He probably said "excess profits". I believe that the Government's description at the time was "fixed fiscal rectitude" or something similar.
  None the less, the tax was the same sort of thing. It was a tax on profits. The hon. Gentleman did not ask questions; he simply voted in the Lobby, without knowing. Yet now he is asking us to define something that was not defined when a Conservative Chancellor proposed the bank tax. I shall talk about the utilities tax in a minute.
  The important factor in strengthening our economy is increasing the skills of our work force. Everybody agrees that training and education are vital to a modern economy, yet what does the Budget do? The Chancellor has cut the budget for nursery education, for TECs and for capital spending on higher education.
  Investment has fallen from 15.5 of GDP in 1990 to 13 per cent. today. Despite all the claims of the Deputy Prime Minister, manufacturing output is still only 2 per cent. higher than in 1990. Productivity has stalled. That is a record not of success but of incompetence—if the Government wish to claim to have had any influence over what has happened.
  Even the private finance initiative, which is often mentioned in the House, and which offered such great promise, has come to very little. I believe that, as recorded in last year's Red Book, the Chancellor thought that the private finance initiative panel had identified 1,000 potential projects, worth £25 billion. Yet he now says that the figure is only £1 billion. All the estimates and hopes for the PFI seem to have come to naught.
  As the Chancellor knows, I have always been a fan of the idea. Indeed, I was an advocate of public-private partnership before the Government were, and they often ridiculed me for it. I believe that in a document presented by the Deputy Prime Minister when the Cabinet was discussing the financing of the Post Office, the option was referred to as the "Prescott option". It was no surprise that, as I understand it, the right hon. Gentleman led the attack on the "Prescott option". I do not suppose there would have been many votes in Cabinet for such a thing, but—
  Mr. Kenneth Clarke: The right hon. Gentleman is right to say that we have often referred to the Prescott option when considering borrowing for capital finance—but we regard what he used to advocate for railway rolling stock and so on simply as borrowing. He could never see why the Government could not just borrow to buy such things.

  837
  The private finance initiative is a little more complicated than that. It involves risk transfer from the public to the private sector, in a way far removed from the original Prescott option. Labour Governments were good at borrowing, and no doubt would be again—but the kind of borrowing that the right hon. Gentleman advocates is the kind that gets countries into crisis. Indeed, it is the kind that he was criticising five minutes ago.
  Mr. Prescott: It must be said that the present Government are not one characterised by very low borrowing levels, however those are measured. Secondly, perhaps it is because the Government did not adopt the Prescott option that they could not make the system work. I know that the Chancellor himself appointed Sir Alastair Morton to consider the proposals and to break down the resistance of the Treasury. Unfortunately, he could not do that either, so the only claim that can be made for the PFI is to cite it as a reason for increasing public expenditure on hospitals and other things.
  I think that everybody agrees that, if some of the Treasury rules were changed, there could be a much more favourable approach. To be honest, I think that the Chancellor is trying to achieve that, or he would not have told us that there were £25 billion, worth of options—although he has been able to secure only £1 billion, worth of those.
  I understand that the PFI was to have played a major part in the financing of hospitals, at the rate of one a month. Yet the only hospital that has actually been financed is the one for which the agreement was signed the night before the Chancellor presented his Budget. Clearly there are many difficulties involved, despite the right hon. and learned Gentleman's enthusiasm for the Prescott proposals. I recommend that he reconsiders the old Prescott option, and he might be able to get more of the projects started.
  The Government have introduced the PFI in such a way that it fails to boost public services significantly and undermines public servants, and has bemused and frustrated the private sector partners and short-changed the taxpayer. The leasing arrangement for the railway stock in York cost considerably more, because the Treasury got behind it and imposed all sorts of impossible rules. In the end, it would cost much more to do things privately than to borrow from the Treasury, but one could not borrow from the Treasury because it was not prepared to increase taxes or use other ways of raising money to increase revenue.
  The Economist described all that as a "dog's breakfast". The much-vaunted plans for a string of national health service projects under the PFI have dwindled down to the single contract that I have already mentioned, and the forecasts have fallen.
  I regret the fact that the Government have not been able to use their so-called business acumen, and have turned a good idea into a dismal failure. We could have used that idea to boost public investment and create jobs in a much more ambitious way than has been achieved. I wish the Chancellor well in trying to get something out of it—but there are not many months left for him to do so.
  There is one measure that the Chancellor saw fit not to mention in his Budget statement—a proposal dramatically to increase tax on long-life investments. That will
  838
  especially affect gas, electricity, water and telecommunications companies, because most of their assets will have been in existence for 25 years.
  Might that not be a utility tax? It will apply largely to utilities. When the House debated Labour's windfall levy last week, the Deputy Prime Minister became quite upset. I note from Hansard that he said:
  "The fact is that windfall taxes, like any other, must come from somewhere … prices would go up or investment would he cut … There is no loose cash sitting about with no purpose in the pockets of British companies. A windfall tax would affect prices or jobs".—[Official Report, 21 November 1996; Vol. 285, c. 1127.]
  Will the Deputy Prime Minister explain what will be affected by the utilities tax on long-life investments? Will it be jobs or investment? Did he consider that? Did the Chancellor tell him? While the right hon. Gentleman was in the House of Commons saying all that, the Chancellor was planning his own version of a utility tax.
  Unlike the windfall levy on excess profits, the Government's suggested tax will apply directly to long-term capital investments. It will be not a one-off levy but a tax that will increase year upon year, and affect the level of the long-term investment that is at the heart of the problems of the British economy.
  On the day when the Chancellor made his announcement, the right hon. Gentleman was apparently encouraging privatised companies to come together to resist the windfall levy, so can he tell us whether he knew of his right hon. and learned Friend's plan to impose that tax on the utilities? Was he concealing that fact from those companies, or was he not told? Will he still host that gathering of the privatised company bosses, his potential cheerleaders, the Heselteenies? I understand that some companies have now declined to join that group. Is that because he did not tell them the truth about the Government's plans?
  There was some debate at the weekend about whether the direct tax bill for the average family has gone up since 1992. The Prime Minister still refused to admit the truth during Question Time. How could he do anything else when he has put posters up around the country saying, "As promised, income tax down"? He could hardly change those posters. The Tory party led by honest John would have us believe that direct tax has come down, but honest William has told us otherwise. This week the chief financial secretary to the Treasury—
  Mr. Waldegrave: I am the Chief Secretary.
  Mr. Prescott: Okay. I am not one for hierarchy. I was not brought up the proper way, as the right hon. Gentleman can tell.
  This week the right hon. Gentleman admitted that direct tax has gone up. We all know that his word is his bond. After all, he is the only man to have been subject to a vote in the House of Commons, which—
  Mr. Waldegrave rose—
  Mr. Prescott: Wait a minute. He won that vote with a majority of one. That is like someone deciding by 13 to 12 to send good-will wishes.
  Mr. Waldegrave: I am glad that I did not spoil the right hon. Gentleman's joke, although it did not go down very well.

  839
  The Prime Minister confirmed that what I said was correct: if earnings go up, people pay more tax. The Prime Minister also confirmed today what I confirmed yesterday: if we had made no changes above the legal indexation of the tax system since 1991–92, the average family about whom we all talk would be paying £88 more in tax.
  Mr. Prescott: The reality is that taxes are going up. People recognise that, and I am sure that they have made a judgment about it.
  Since 1992, direct tax has increased for families earning an average income. I must say to the Financial Secretary—[Interruption.] I mean the Chief Secretary to the Cabinet—
  Mr. Waldegrave: I am Chief Secretary to the Treasury.
  Mr. Prescott: Okay.
  The right hon. Gentleman must feel somewhat raw, because on the one hand he is accused in the House of not telling the truth to it, but when he does tell the truth, he almost gets sacked by the Prime Minister. I will leave the public to make a judgment about that.
  On top of the 22 tax increases since the election, the Budget contains one brand new tax and seven further Tory tax rises, as my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition so tellingly exposed within minutes of the Budget statement.
  One hidden tax is the rise in council tax—an extra £4 billion will be charged over the next three years. That is equivalent to £200 extra from every family. The Red Book clearly shows that the tax burden as a share of the gross domestic product is set to rise from 35.75 per cent. to 37 per cent. by the year 2000. That is according to the Government's own figures and according to their stated commitment. Over the next three years, the Tories will take back nearly £7 billion more a year in tax, the equivalent of 3.5p on income tax. The truth is that the overall tax burden will be increased by the Budget. The Tory party is a tax-increasing, not a tax-cutting, party.
  Mr. Garrett: My right hon. Friend has given examples of the impact of the increases of taxation on ordinary families. Surely the most telling statistic is that in 1975 there were 920,000 children living in homes below the poverty line as defined by the Department of Social Security, and today that figure is 2.9 million. That comparative statistic surely puts into the shade the Deputy Prime Minister's chat about microwave ovens and how many people have freezers.
  Mr. Prescott: I am glad that my hon. Friend has made that point, because poverty is one of the key issues of my speech. The council tax will be forced up by £4 billion over three years, but local councils' budget have nevertheless been cut by a further £2 billion, which will threaten essential local services. That will add to the difficulties that my hon. Friend has identified.
  The tendency in the Tory party is to attack Labour councils, as the Prime Minister did today. We must accept, however, that Labour local authorities are doing
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  something right, because in 1979 there were 243 Tory councils, and now the number is down to 13. Something must have gone wrong, because there used to be 12,000 Tory councillors, but that number has now been reduced to 5,000. I assume that the electorate did not like Tory party policy whether at national Government level or at local level.
  We are concerned about expenditure on health, schools and crime prevention. This is a Budget where one pays more and gets less. That is how it is with Tories—we cannot trust them on tax.
  As my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, South (Mr. Garrett) pointed out, the mark of 17 years of Tory government has been the growing poverty gap. One in five non-pensioner households are without a wage earner. More than 4 million children live in households earning below half the average income—three times more than in 1979. In real terms, income for the poorest 10th of the population has fallen by 13 per cent., whereas the income of the richest 10 per cent. has increased by 60 per cent. We have not heard about that record from the Government.
  Several hon. Members rose
  Mr. Prescott: No, I will not give way, because other Members want to speak.
  The poverty gap has been brought about because of the Government's policies. Breaking the link between pensions and earnings has caused more poverty among pensioners. More and more people have been driven to means-tested benefits. The abolition of the wages councils has cost the taxpayer more than £3 billion in family credit to support poverty pay. The unemployment rate has twice been allowed to rise above 3 million. How right was the vice-chairman of the Tory party, Mr. John Maples, who said in 1994:
  "The reality is now that the rich are getting richer on the backs of the rest who are getting poorer.
  The gap between the highest and the lowest paid worker is higher than at any time since records began in 1886."
  There is one category in which we lead the world—growing inequality. If Ministers and the Deputy Prime Minister would care to look at reports published by the World bank, the OECD and the United Nations Development Programme, they would discover that not only is inequality damaging and wrong for any economy that is concerned about social justice, but that it is bad for that very economy, because it suffers from the consequences of the growing gap between the rich and the poor.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown) has fought a valiant case for cutting VAT on domestic fuel. There is no doubt that that should help to alleviate fuel poverty, as our amendment makes clear.
  Social justice means many things, but nothing is more important than a decent place to live. The Deputy Prime Minister made no mention of poverty, and to talk about housing policy as though it is just about negative equity insults the intelligence of many people who have had to face the consequences of Government policy.
  Under the Tory Government of many years ago, Prime Minister Macmillan was proud to say that 300,000 new houses a year were built. The Tories often boasted about

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  achieving that. Now just 180,000 houses have been built. The scale of the poverty in this country is revealed by the fact that people do not have decent housing.
  Under the Labour Government we built 290,000 new homes a year. For every year of the Tory Government, however, 100,000 fewer houses have been built. Negative equity still affects 1 million people and there are still thousands of evictions a week, but no one talks about building houses. That is bad enough, but negative equity has also been caused by the sale of local council houses. Local authorities were told to sell those houses and between £4 billion and £5 billion is still held in receipts that could be used as part of a phased programme to build houses. That would reduce the unemployment problem faced by 225,000 building workers. Would it not be better to bring jobs and social justice together by taking building workers off the dole and putting them back to work to build houses to meet the greatest level of homelessness that we have seen in this country for many years? That is what social justice is about.
  Last week the Secretary of State for the Environment told the House that we need 4.4 million new homes by the next decade. If he is right, and I have listened to the judgments on which he based that assessment, at the present rate of building we will achieve that target not in 10 years but in 30 years, in 2025. That is unacceptable. I want to hear the Government say that it is their priority to get people off the dole in order to build the houses for those who need them. That would improve our quality of life and would have a great influence on the feel-good factor. We must take those facts into account, but we know that the Government's housing policy is deplorable.
  We must consider the political context in which the Budget was presented. It was designed to save the skins of the Tory party, not to secure the future of the nation. I noticed that the Chancellor made his Budget address to the nation at 9.30 pm on Tuesday evening. I had a look to see what kind of graphs and statistics he intended to use, because they are usually extremely interesting, and they make me laugh. I noted the irony of the scheduling because that address was immediately followed by "One Foot in the Grave". I do not know whether the right hon. and learned Gentleman watched it afterwards—how appropriate.
  The first poll taken after the Budget appeared in the Evening Standard. It found that people did not feel better off and that they thought that it was not fair. Indeed, the Budget was judged a flop within 24 hours of the Chancellor's broadcast. All the analysis since then has confirmed the verdict, including today's ICM/Guardian poll, which found that less than a third of people feel a lot better off. That is what we expect from a Budget for the few, not for the many. Nearly half the people questioned felt worse off, and the people were moving away from the Tory party.
  The people in this country know that they cannot trust the Tories on tax or the economy. They know that Labour will be better for jobs, for health, for education and for crime prevention. They know that Labour will encourage the long-term investment that will make the economy strong. They know that they will be better off with Labour, and I assume that the poll result shows that.
  The next test will be the by-election in Barnsley, East. I shall now address what I say to the Deputy Prime Minister. There are two forthcoming by-elections—
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  Barnsley, East and the Euro-constituency of Merseyside, West. The people in Barnsley hold the Government's majority in their hands, and they are brassed off with the Government.
  I recommend that the Deputy Prime Minister watches the film "Brassed Off", because it is about a community that was destroyed by his coal policy, and the consequential effects in areas such as Grimethorpe and Barnsley. Yes, the electorate there are brassed off, and I believe that, a week on Thursday, they will take the opportunity to finish the Government's majority. That is a real test of what the Deputy Prime Minister said.
  On 12 December, the people will make that clear, and it will remove the Government's parliamentary majority. If any further proof were needed that the Government are running scared of the electorate, just look at Wirral, South. Everything was in place. Twenty hotel rooms were booked, party workers were primed and the candidate was wheeled out in a party political broadcast. All the talk was, "Don't worry; on 19 December the people of Win-al will have a chance to give their verdict on the Budget and the Government's competence".
  But last Friday, the Tories ran away from holding the Wirral, South by-election on 19 December. Half the Cabinet queued up to shop the party chairman, and the Chancellor told Jimmy Young that the Tory party cannot be led. The Tories ran scared in Wirral, South because they know that the loss of that seat will turn them into a minority Government. That is why they fear the test.
  Last Friday, I wrote to the Prime Minister asking him to explain the decision to delay the Wirral, South by-election. I said that the people in Wirral, South were entitled to their democratic say. I wrote:
  "They will want to know whether it is your intention to honour the convention and hold a by-election within three months of the death of Barry Porter, or whether you intend not to hold one and deny voters the chance of choosing a new MP until the general election?
  The people of Wirral South need representation and they need an answer. The rest of the country also needs to be told."
  The Prime Minister's reply, dated 2 December, was delivered by hand today. It simply said:
  "Dear John,
  Thank you for your letter of 29 November. The Christmas pantomime season has clearly started early this year."
  That is it. That is the answer that the Prime Minister of this country gives to the people in Wirral, South, when all I said was that they had a right to take a democratic decision and that they should have a Member of Parliament to represent them in this place. That is the attitude of the present Prime Minister.
  It just goes to show that the Tories are running scared on tax following a Budget that has flopped. They are running scared of one another, with half the Cabinet trooping in to complain to the Chief Whip that the party chairman is bullying them. They are running scared on Europe. Their party is split from top to bottom, behaving like two halves of a pantomime horse walking in opposite directions.
  The House will ask, why does not the self-styled Minister of Merseyside show leadership by hopping along to the Wirral and giving the people the election that they are entitled to? He will not, because the Tory party cannot be led and its leader cannot lead. If the economy is in

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  such great shape, why do not the Tories have the guts to let all the people decide in a general election, and end the pantomime of a Tory Government?
  6.3 pm
  Mr. John MacGregor: I was the Chief Secretary to the Treasury who costed the Labour party's programme before the 1987 election, and I want to follow my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister in his analysis of Labour's continuing lack of credibility on tax and expenditure. Mark you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, it has shifted a bit. In 1987, the Labour party made very many specific commitments, which it had not costed, so members of the party were bowled over when the cost of what they had firmly and clearly committed themselves to emerged.
  In 1992, the Labour party tried to avoid the dilemma that it had got into in 1987 by addressing one or two of the tax implications and admitting that there would have to be some tax increases. Labour Members are so conscious that tax is the Achilles' heel of their party's approach that they have shifted the ground. They now criticise the shortfall in public expenditure wherever they wish to do so, and pretend to any pressure group that a Labour Government would put that right, yet they also say from the Front Bench and to City audiences that that is not a commitment. Simultaneously, they criticise every tax increase, giving the clear implication that they would not have done it or might reverse it, and then pretend that that is not so.
  Labour cannot get away with that approach. That is very important, and I want to emphasise it.
  Dr. Norman A. Godman: The right hon. Gentleman mentioned 1987. If the Government had maintained their 1987 share of North sea oil and gas profits, the Treasury would have received an extra £12 billion in tax revenues between that year and 1994.
  Mr. MacGregor: Labour's commitment to expenditure per year in 1987 was a good deal higher even than that figure. That is why Labour Members were devastated when the total costing was done.
  Where does the Labour party stand now? It has made certain commitments. The first is the windfall tax, which should be known as the pitfall tax because so many pitfalls have been demonstrated. The biggest pitfall is that it is a one-off tax to meet a spending commitment on employment that everyone knows will last for more than a year. There is bound to be a continuing commitment, for which the windfall tax would produce no revenue. The implication is that Labour is making a much heavier spending commitment for the lifetime of a Parliament.
  Labour's next specific commitment is to abolish the assisted places scheme and tax relief on health care insurance for the over-60s. I supposed that the Labour party now supported public-private partnership, of which those are both good examples. I go further: it is very damaging that the Labour party has chosen to try to abolish those two schemes.
  Perhaps I should declare an interest in the assisted places scheme, in that my wife is a member of the council of the Girls Public Day School Trust, which benefits from
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  the assisted places scheme. I know from her experience and in many other ways that the assisted places scheme has provided enormous educational opportunities for children from less well-off and low-income families. They have been enabled to choose schools with specific qualities—in the case of the GPDST, high academic achievement. Those girls have gained places in universities and pursued well-defined careers thereafter, which would not have happened had it not been for the assisted places scheme.
  The Labour party proposes to remove tax relief on medical insurance for the over-60s. I thought that it, too, understood, in view of the enormous and increasing commitments involved in dealing with an aging population, that we need to bring in more private finance to tackle those issues during the next 10 years—yet it proposes to abolish the tax relief.
  Those two proposals will not yield much in terms of revenue forgone, but they will be damaging.
  It has just been announced that Labour would reduce VAT on fuel. I would like to ask the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Central (Mr. Darling), who I understand is to wind up the debate on behalf of the Opposition, whether Labour, in addition to making that commitment, which would reduce revenue by about £500 million, proposes to claw back previous additional spending on social security and other benefits which were made to compensate those on social security for the increase in VAT. If Labour intends to claw back the additional spending, I do not see the point of clawing it back from those who are least well off; but if Labour does not claw it back, that will be another spending commitment of £500 million.
  I want to concentrate on the debate. The game was given away when my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor asked the deputy leader of the Labour party a question relating to the public sector borrowing requirement. My right hon. and learned Friend suggested that the PSBR could be reduced by raising taxes or by reducing expenditure, and challenged the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) to say what Labour would do. The right hon. Gentleman refused to answer, but one need only read speeches made from the Opposition Front Bench, including his today, to realise that Labour would raise both taxes and expenditure.
  The speech of the right hon. Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown) was without solid foundation—an edifice constructed on quicksand which would collapse within weeks of a Labour Government being returned to power. The entire Labour party approach is intellectually and politically dishonest. The right hon. Gentleman devoted his speech to criticising us for the tax increases in the Budget and those introduced previously. The implication was that each of those increases was wrong, that Labour would not have introduced them, and that Labour would reverse them.
  At the recent conference of the Confederation of British Industry, the right hon. Gentleman hinted—perhaps it was more than a hint—that capital allowances should be doubled. That was another clear implication of a further £750 million in tax forgone. The Opposition's approach is to criticise every tax increase, with the implication that they would never have imposed it and would reverse it, but they do not quite say so.

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  On expenditure, the hon. Member for Peckham (Ms Harman) criticised the changes to the one-parent benefit and the lone-parent premium. The implication was that she would reverse those changes. The right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East today made a clear commitment on overseas aid. When he complained vigorously about pensions being linked to prices rather than to earnings, it was not clear whether that was a commitment by the Labour party to link pensions to rises in earnings. I understand that it is not, but there is a clever innuendo in the right hon. Gentleman's substantial criticism of a measure that was taken some time ago in the context, he said, of hitting pensioners.
  Mr. Prescott: Causing poverty.
  Mr. MacGregor: The clear impression was given that the Labour party would reverse the measure. I ask the Opposition whether they would do so and, if they would not, what was the point of the right hon. Gentleman's remark?
  Mr. Prescott: The measure causes poverty.
  Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Janet Fookes): Order. If the right hon. Gentleman wants to intervene, he is at liberty to do so.
  Mr. MacGregor: As the right hon. Gentleman feels so strongly about the matter, would the Labour party restore the link between pensions and earnings, rather than prices? If not, he is making a bogus point and misleading a great many people.
  The issue was most clearly demonstrated in Hansard last Wednesday, 27 November, when my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment made his statement on local government finance. The hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson) gave the Labour party response at column 343. His first point was a huge criticism that the Government's target for council spending next year was £2 billion short of what councils are spending this year. We all know the debates and arguments about that. The clear implication was that Labour would reverse that and add £2 billion to the local government settlement.
  Next, the hon. Gentleman complained that there were no allowances for inflation, pay increases and so on. The clear implication was that Labour would have made such provision. He then suggested that, in education, there should be additional spending of £41 per pupil, which would cost £750 million. The implication was that the Labour party would commit itself to that expenditure.
  The hon. Gentleman went on to criticise the capping levels on many authorities, with the clear implication that Labour would remove the capping limit. He referred to massive cuts in the housing investment programme, with the clear implication that Labour would restore those cuts. He criticised the need for other sources of income to enable local authorities to meet their spending commitments, including many charges. The implication was that the Labour party would find, from central Government sources, the income that local authorities were being asked to provide.
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  There, in one column, was an enormous list of criticisms, with the clear implication to local councils all round the country that the Labour party would not have gone down that route and would add considerably to the grant from central Government to local authorities.
  Mr. Darling: Was there not a clear implication at the last election, when the Prime Minister said that he would not extend the scope of value added tax or the rate, that he would not do so? If that was the case, why did the right hon. Gentleman vote with the Prime Minister to increase and extend the scope of VAT?
  Mr. MacGregor: After the election, as we moved into the recession, it was clear that certain changes had to be made. We are discussing the economy as it is now.
  The message that went out to the massed ranks of Labour local councillors all around the country was clear. Yesterday, in my own county, Norfolk, members of the Norfolk Labour party were extremely critical of the amount of money available for education. They floundered only when they were asked whether it would be any different under Labour. Plainly they were critical because they had listened to what the hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras had said, and they believed that matters would be different under Labour.
  In his winding-up speech tonight, the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Central must make it clear to the massed ranks of Labour councillors all round the country that he disowns what the hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras said last week, and that he will stop the hon. Gentleman criticising the levels of local authority expenditure and encouraging Labour councils to spend more. If he fails to do so, the IOUs will come back from Labour councils if the Labour party is elected at the next general election.
  I have given my reasons for believing that tax and expenditure will be a big issue in the coming election. Unless the issues that I have highlighted, particularly those connected with local government spending, are addressed by the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Central tonight, the Labour party's so-called prudent messages to City audiences are not worth the breath used to utter them.
  Those messages and the speeches that we hear so often from Members on the Labour Back Benches demonstrate that changing the habits of Labour Members and persuading them to accept vows of expenditure prudence is like changing the habits of rabbits and persuading them to accept vows of celibacy. At least in the past the Labour party was honest about its expenditure programmes. Now it is not.
  My right hon. and learned Friend's Budget was sound and unspectacular. That is exactly what we needed. My first point is that it was right to be fiscally prudent and tight, given the prospects for the economy in the coming year. Growth will be up, consumer spending is up, investment is up, additional money is available for consumer spending as a result of building society flotations and other factors, and without doubt there is a feeling of growing consumer confidence. The housing market is improving, as we can see in certain parts of the country, but the improvement is spreading to other parts.
  The danger, especially in relation to the housing market, is a return to the excess boom of 1987–88. Everyone agrees that we must avoid that. The Chancellor

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  is right, therefore, to present a fiscally prudent Budget, and to give himself the flexibility on monetary policy and interest rates to take further action, if necessary. That is the right approach, and it is certainly not a give-away Budget before an election.
  Secondly, I warmly welcome the steps being taken to bring into balance certain benefits for single parents and married couples. I hope that we will go further in that direction in future Budgets. I pay particular tribute to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Security, who has done a superb job of reducing the social security budget over the past four years. I hope that the Government will go further in future Budgets and provide greater tax relief to married couples with children. I believe that we made a mistake in reducing the married allowance, and I would like to see that error redressed.
  Thirdly, I welcome the proposals to deal with smuggling from the continent. That is obviously having a serious effect on business—particularly small businesses—and on tax revenues. I recognise that that is one of the effects of the single market, from which we benefit so much in other areas. Ease of communications within the single market and different tax levels in France have tempted many people to try to import large quantities of alcohol and tobacco into this country. The Chancellor has acknowledged that there is a genuine problem and I think that he is correct to tackle the smuggling aspect. If the measures do not work, we must face the fact that we may have to harmonise our excise duties—at least on wine, beer and spirits—with those of other countries in the single market. That could be achieved gradually in future Budgets.
  The deputy leader of the Labour party mentioned the Norfolk and Norwich hospital private finance initiative. It is situated in my constituency and I have been closely involved in developments for more than a year. It is a very big contract worth nearly £200 million, which will last for 60 years. Unlike the "Prescott option", the risk transfer is considerable for the Octagon Partnership that will run the hospital. Progress was frustrating at times, and some planning permission and access issues took some time to resolve and were a major cause of delay. It is all very well for the deputy leader of the Labour party to smile, but he knows that a substantial project with major traffic implications involves much planning.
  It was inevitable that a big contract like that—which breaks new ground—would take some time. I would have preferred faster progress, but I am pleased that the project is now under way. Norfolk will achieve a state-of-the-art, 21st century hospital of substantial expense and proportions, and the complex contracts that have been agreed will stand as a template for future projects and allow them to develop more quickly.
  Mr. Barry Sheerman: I thank the right hon. Gentleman, who has been an adviser on the project, for giving way. Although he does not usually give advice free of charge, I am sure he did so in this case. He is a director of Hill Samuel, a food company and so on, and his expertise as an accountant is invaluable. Will he
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  confirm whether the financial deal for the hospital has been signed? As I understand it, it was not signed even last Thursday following the Budget statement.
  Mr. MacGregor: I must correct the hon. Gentleman: I am no longer a director of Hill Samuel and I was never an accountant. I provide an enormous amount of advice free of charge, as I did in this case.
  The issues delaying the final signing of the contract have been resolved, the major part of the contract has been signed, and I am confident that it will go ahead. The crucial point is that, now that a benchmark has been established, future hospital contracts will now progress more easily. This project, like other PFI projects, is far removed from the "Prescott option" which the right hon. Gentleman and I used to debate when I was Secretary of State for Transport.
  The following three points relate to Conservative Budgets in the next five years, when I hope we shall address other tax proposals as the opportunities arise. The first issue concerns long-term savings and capital. I know that my right hon. Friends intend to alter capital gains tax and inheritance tax—but I shall not dwell on that today. I think that we should examine the tax relief for savings as a whole. In view of our aging population, we must encourage people to save at a much earlier stage of life.
  I believe that encouragement should be provided through the tax system, as occurs in America with the section 403 retirement provision, which has really taken off. Similar encouragement would assist those who may not have occupational schemes, those who may wish to top up such schemes, or those who may be without work for certain periods. We must think seriously about introducing a "provision for retirement" account that would encourage people to save for their retirement fairly early in their working lives. The tax system must be changed significantly in that regard.
  Secondly, I have always been attracted by the Country Landowners Association proposal for rural business units. My right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary, as a former Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, will agree that agriculture has undergone massive change. Farmers are now diversifying into areas that are far removed from traditional farming. We could encourage that diversification, and hence improve rural employment prospects, through rural business units.
  Finally, my right hon. and learned Friend will not be surprised to learn that my one criticism on the public expenditure front relates to the transport budget, particularly the road programme. The Government's roads budget—although much better than the Opposition's proposals—allows for only three or four significant new road schemes per year, including motorway widening. There is no doubt that, as the economy continues to recover and growth remains strong, the demands on our major motorway and trunk networks—and for new bypasses—will grow stronger. I believe that it will be necessary to return to a much bigger road-building programme. I realise that that cannot be achieved this year, but I hope that my right hon. and hon. Friends will ensure that it is given greater priority in future.
  My main message is that, although the present Labour policy on tax and expenditure differs from its 1987 approach, tax remains its Achilles' heel. Anyone who studies such matters does not believe that the Opposition

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  have got it right. Above all, a Labour Government would be subject to enormous expenditure pressures, and I simply do not believe that the supposedly prudent approach of the Opposition Treasury team holds any water.
  6.27 pm
  Mr. Robert Sheldon: I looked forward to hearing a more critical survey of the Budget from the right hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr. MacGregor), with whom I have had many dealings over the years. He mentioned the private finance initiative. The problem with the PFI is that it generates excessive expectations. I have no doubt that one can readily justify the use of that initiative in individual cases.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) always pressed upon me the advantages of the PFI, which I came to accept. It can be justified in individual cases because levels of skill and management in parts of British industry are superior to those employed by Government Departments on certain projects. That fact is clear. Therefore, an expenditure increase of 1 per cent, or 1.5 per cent.—or sometimes a little more—may be offset by the greater skills and effectiveness of the organisation involved.
  The danger is that, as it does not count against borrowing, it is not a "free lunch"—as the Financial Times leader put it. The cost of the arrangement must be anticipated and the risks must be borne by the private companies concerned. We should not have so many projects. Alastair Morton met me to press the advantages of the private finance initiative—which I accept—but they will be rather more limited than the Government assume.
  There is a distortion in the annual examination of finance and budgetary matters. In the autumn we have the Queen's Speech and the Budget, followed by the Finance Bill. It all comes together. Thereafter, there are few opportunities to debate these matters. Some hon. Members, for example the right hon. Member for Worthing (Sir T. Higgins), hope for changes in the parliamentary year, with the Queen's Speech in the spring. I accept that there are certain advantages in that, but since the days of James I and Guy Fawkes, the autumn has usually been an acceptable time for the state opening of Parliament. I would be quite happy to see that changed, but I am sceptical about seeing it come to pass. We need economic issues to come before the House rather more frequently, so that they may be subject to scrutiny similar to that which we have had in the past.
  The assumptions in the Budget are such that we should wish to examine them more frequently than we are able to do in a normal parliamentary spring and summer. However, next year we expect to see the Budget of my right hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown) and the reshaping of our economy, which I look forward to welcoming.
  In nearly 18 years of power, the Conservative Government have achieved the management of decline. The United Kingdom has continued to be overtaken by countries that have been behind us since the middle of the 18th century. Unfortunately, investment and the performance of manufacturing industry have fallen disastrously, particularly over the past 18 years, and are still below those of our main competitors. We see the results of that in the Red Book, which shows that the
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  balance of payments is still in deficit. Every year so far this decade, we have been in deficit. This year we have done it again, despite the fact that at this stage of the economic cycle—after five years of recession—we should have been able to clock up at least one surplus.
  The trouble is that we have still not taken seriously investment in manufacturing.
  Mr. Nigel Forman: Does the right hon. Gentleman not believe that he is—perhaps uncharacteristically—being too gloomy? If he looks at the simple position of this country relative to the global economy, he will discover, in simple figures, that we represent about 1 per cent. of the world's population, about 3 per cent, of world gross domestic product and a little under 5 per cent, of world trade. Does that not show that this country is doing rather well?
  Mr. Sheldon: We must remember that our balance of payments is the indicator that we have to deal with, and it shows that we have not been paying our way. In comparison with the rest of the European Community, our manufacturing has suffered: it has declined.
  My constituency—I repeat this regularly—used to be an important manufacturing constituency. We had high levels of skill, pay was above the national—let alone the regional—average, unemployment was low, and we were highly skilled in engineering. The years 1979 to 1981 dealt a deathly blow to our prospects. I lost one-third of the companies in my constituency, many of which were highly skilled, and I shall never forgive the Government for that. We lost one third of our companies because of the $2.40 pound and the DM5 pound, which did so much damage to us.
  That there should be a relationship between the investment and the life of the asset is true, but it should be a skewed relationship based on the fact that there should be some incentive to investment, and that particularly applies to manufacturing. One or two hon. Members, the Confederation of British Industry and I have long argued for a real investment incentive for manufacturing. The CBI called for 100 per cent, depreciation with a ceiling of £200,000. That is a sensible proposal. The present capital allowances are not an incentive. As I have regularly argued, 25 per cent, is a disincentive. It is less—not more—than the true depreciation of the asset in its first year. Such an incentive should be the major goal of our industrial expansion.
  One forecast that I find doubtful is that there is an output gap, which the Chancellor considered was about 3 per cent. That is the basis for his expectation of a 3.5 per cent, rate of growth. The Chancellor relies on this to bring down the public sector borrowing requirement to £19 billion. If capital allowances of the kind that I have mentioned had been given, there would have been greater investment, greater capacity and a greater opportunity to increase output beyond the expected 3 per cent. We could have had a much better chance of achieving the growth that the Chancellor predicted.
  The Chancellor rightly draws the connection between the output gap and the prospects for growth. It is a pity that he does not go further and continue the connection to investment and investment incentives. It is indeed a

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  thousand pities that, within the Treasury, the understanding of manufacturing industry is nowhere near as good as it is of the needs of the City of London, which lies just down the road. My right hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline, East shows a much greater appreciation of that connection, which forms much of the basis for the respect in which he is held by many industrialists.
  One further problem for manufacturing industry is the strength of the pound. The trade-weighted index is now 14 per cent. higher than it was a year ago. That means that our exporters find it increasingly hard to sell abroad and imports compete more effectively with our producers here at home. There are two main consequences of that, the first being that our balance of payment equilibrium will be much harder to achieve, and the second follows from cheaper imports. Cheaper imports do, however, have one big advantage for the Chancellor, because there is a relationship between the value of the pound and the level of inflation. Making imports cheaper will effectively reduce the retail prices index.
  Some have been puzzled by the Chancellor's optimistic view of the prospects for inflation next year, but the trade-off between an over-valued pound and the level of inflation is one that a Chancellor should manipulate with care. That relationship is well put in Goldman Sachs's UK weekly analysis of 8 November, which says:
  "the rise in sterling, if sustained in the next few months, (as we expect), will have a pronounced effect on inflation next year. On our estimates the rise in the exchange rate during 1996 will knock about 1% off the underlying rate of inflation between mid-1996 and mid-1997."
  It goes on to say:
  "the loss of competitiveness will hit exports, helping to slow economic activity during the course of next year. Slower growth from this source will also help to curb inflationary pressure in 1998."
  To a Chancellor who has difficulty in meeting the inflation forecast, the prospect of an over-valued pound—despite its problems for industry—coming to the rescue is appealing. This has been done before and the great sufferer has been our manufacturing industry. An over-valued pound acts as an inducement to importers, some of whom remain players in the field long after the cheap imports have been ended by more sensible policies.
  That was the lesson of the 1960s, the 1970s and the 1980s, when an over-valued pound brought imports into Britain that were able to entrench themselves at the expense of our own manufacturers. That, after all, is what happened in 1979–81, to the damage of our industry. Such action makes attainable the same action that destroyed so much industry. Such action—nothing like as much as 1979 to 1981, of course—makes attainable the Chancellor's target of 2.5 per cent. next year.
  Mr. John Townend: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that one reason why the pound has risen in recent months is the growing scepticism in the markets about whether—because of the difficulty and the fudging of the convergence criteria—the euro, when it comes into being, will be weaker than the deutschmark? As a result, because we are seen as a currency that will not join the euro, the pound has risen.
  Mr. Sheldon: Interest rates have risen, and they have had the greatest effect on the pound. Because they may
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  rise still further—particularly following the meeting between the Governor of the Bank of England and the Chancellor of the Exchequer—that expectation will push the pound up further.
  I must mention an innovation in the Red Book. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, East said, it gives the forecast for unemployment right up to 2000. I recall many years of Treasury excuses that I and others gave for not providing forecasts of the number of people out of work. We do not need to look very far for the reason for changing such a long-standing custom. This exercise is not an excursion into open government. The Chancellor hopes to produce acceptable figures for the public sector borrowing requirement that either are based on optimism or presuppose that the next few Budgets will be introduced by my right hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline, East.
  It may be acceptable to provide forecasts of unemployment for a year ahead, but to presume a knowledge of the labour market, the competitiveness of our industry and the impact of international financial changes suggests not a forecast, but a piece of opportunism so as to produce the required Budget figures.
  Much of the Red Book is used for such justification. Its key passages seem designed to meet the objective of a favourable economic assessment. Steps are taken to quantify the different elements to fit that assessment. At the end of it all, we see the doubtful optimism of the PSBR forecast, the future inflation rate, the private finance initiative successes, the levels of unemployment, the level of growth and the large revenues from the "spend to save" policy. So many of those figures are derived from the hopes of a Chancellor facing an early election.
  The "spend to save" policy for the revenue departments belatedly echoes the strictures of the Select Committee on Public Accounts over the years. Frequent cuts in staffing are the reverse of that policy, because we have lost the people who could have produced such savings. It is a pity that we have had to wait so long for the Committee's suggestions to be implemented. I look forward to savings being made, but I believe that the assessment has been too generous, and the optimism has been too great.
  The Government, like all Governments, must ultimately be judged on how they have dealt with the four central economic policy objectives. Have they succeeded on the balance of payments, prices, growth and unemployment since 1979? They have been unsuccessful, so it is now time to pass the responsibility to my right hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline, East.
  6.41 pm
  Mr. Matthew Carrington: It is always a great pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon). His contributions to debates on the economy are always thoughtful, if somewhat gloomy. He manages to paint a picture that is at variance with some of the facts by concentrating on the figures that he decides are capable of a sad interpretation.
  I agree with the right hon. Gentleman on the private finance initiative. It is a technical matter, but as he raised it, I shall deal with it in my opening remarks. I am not concerned that the PFI will fail to be a success—I am convinced that, in time, it will be attractive to many private sector investors. My hon. Friend the Financial

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  Secretary is hard at work trying to remove the barriers that prevent the private sector from quoting for PFI projects at a reasonable cost.
  I am, however, slightly concerned about the way in which the PFI is reported in the public accounts. The Government are committing themselves to a long stream of payments. It is not traditional for tables in the Red Book to take account of commitments that extend for many years. As the PFI grows, it will be necessary to find a mechanism to reflect the Government's contingent liabilities—the guarantees of future payments—in the borrowing figures. Resource accounting—when it is introduced—may deal with that problem, but the figures will be distorted unless a way is found to reflect PFI commitments in the borrowing figures.
  I am grateful to have the opportunity to welcome the Budget and the Chancellor's announcements. As my right hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk (Mr. MacGregor) said, this is not a spectacular Budget. Indeed, it is better for not being spectacular. It was not intended to be a Budget that would set the world on fire. The tax cuts are welcome, even if all they do is to ensure that the fiscal drag on the economy—the natural growth of the economy, and therefore the natural growth of tax revenues—is returned to taxpayers in some form.
  My right hon. and learned Friend's proposal to increase the threshold for paying tax by more than the rate of inflation is particularly welcome. That removes 410,000 more people from tax paying than would have been removed if the threshold had merely been indexed. That will help many people on lower incomes.
  This is not a tax-cutting Budget, and it was not designed to be. For some people, it may be a tax-raising Budget, especially if Labour and Liberal Democrat councils irresponsibly raise the council tax. It is clear from the rhetoric that we have heard during these debates that that is the likely plan. It is a vain attempt to blame the Government for the huge rise in council tax. Even before this year's settlement, my council managed to raise the council tax by 40 per cent. in two years, which is well above any figure that could conceivably be necessary, given the sums provided by central Government.
  The Budget is finely judged, because, by doing little, it is designed to encourage the economy at a critical moment. The challenge that we face is to prevent inflation from rising, and to ensure that the public sector borrowing requirement decreases, both of which are vital objectives. There are already signs that inflation is on the increase, and that consumer spending is rising. Hon. Members have only to see the volume of sales that are being transacted in the great department stores in London to realise that consumer spending, although not booming, has strongly recovered.
  House prices are rising sharply. As in most parts of central London, house prices in Fulham are rising unsustainably fast. It is estimated that they rose by 20 per cent. this year and last year. Anecdotal evidence suggests that, in reality, house prices in central London are rising faster than that. We are seeing the return of gazumping and sealed bids for properties that are then sold for a sum well above the asking price. That may be an inner-London problem, but I suspect that it will filter through to the rest of the economy fairly soon.
  M4 is growing at 10 per cent., which is alarmingly fast. There are technical reasons for some of that growth, such as changes in M4 itself, and in the speed of circulation of
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  various elements in M4. Nevertheless, 10 per cent. is well above a sustainable level, and suggests the existence of inflationary pressures. It certainly confirms the anecdotal evidence that there is much more money around. So my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor was absolutely correct in not further stimulating the economy now, because that is the last thing that it needs.
  It would also not have been right to raise taxes sharply, because that would not have had the possibly necessary damping down effect on the economy. Raising taxes is not a good way in which to control inflation; that is much better done through monetary policy, by raising interest rates.
  My right hon. and learned Friend recently made an obvious move towards increasing interest rates when he raised the rate from 5.75 to 6 per cent. That rise is very small, and it is certainly not large enough to take out from the system a large amount of excess money. Such a rise is a good thing, because one of the characteristics of a strong economy, which is noticeable in Germany, is that a very small rise in interest rates sends an—often psychological—signal that has a damping down effect on the economy that goes well beyond the purely monetary effect of an interest rate rise alone.
  In Germany, the Bundesbank can produce, by a very small movement in interest rates, a very large change in spending patterns and the way in which the economy moves. Our economy would greatly benefit if we could adopt an arrangement in which a small interest rate change produces a big change in how money is spent and circulates in the economy. Nevertheless, a small rise in interest rates now is vastly better than a large rise later, after we have won the next general election.
  The key problem that we face is the public sector borrowing requirement. The PSBR is sharply falling, and I very much welcome the fact that, next year, it will be below the level set by the Maastricht criteria. However, a problem remains from the estimates in last year's Red Book and in the summer economic forecast, deriving from the mysteriously missing value added tax receipts. We are missing perhaps some £6 billion in VAT receipts, although an attempt was made, in the table on page 69 of the Red Book, to account for them. The account is far from convincing. I suspect that the Treasury and, particularly, Customs and Excise do not yet truly know what is happening with VAT, and I strongly recommend that greater efforts be made to produce a more convincing explanation for the gap.
  Let me give an example of the size of the gap. This morning, the Treasury Select Committee took evidence from Treasury officials, who could account for missing VAT receipts, as defined in that table, up to a figure of about £2.5 billion, out of the missing £6 billion. That leaves a large shortfall to be explained by other means. However, with the economy, and particularly consumer spending, growing fast, VAT receipts are showing signs of recovering.
  There is considerable anecdotal evidence that the gap in VAT receipts is not due to tax avoidance or evasion, and that it is probably not due to companies discovering ways in which to remove themselves from the VAT net. It is much more likely that the gap is a cyclical drop in VAT payment, and that the cycle is out of kilter with

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  Treasury expectations, although it is now starting to recover. Various economic analysts have produced evidence that suggests that explanation.
  Mr. Salmond: The hon. Gentleman is saying that the problem with VAT is not structural but cyclical. Therefore, is he not saying that the problem is merely one of bad Treasury forecasting? The missing £6 billion does not inspire confidence about the other forecasts in the Red Book.
  Mr. Carrington: Obviously the hon. Gentleman has not read the previous Red Books, or he would know the answer to his question. The forecasts in last year's Red Book and in the summer economic statement were somewhat more optimistic than the eventual outcome. Forecasting is an art and not a science, and there are as many forecasts in the market as there are economists, all of which are different. Any economy that is run on the basis that a forecast is accurate is heading towards disappointment, if not disaster.
  Although the chart undoubtedly is partly accurate, I think that some of the missing VAT receipts suggest cyclical change rather than a need for the Government to take urgent measures to remedy the situation.
  Mr. Forman: Might it not be the case that a standard rate of VAT, which must now be set at 17.5 per cent., and the relatively narrow VAT base, in which only two thirds of consumer expenditure is covered by VAT, provide considerable incentives for people to take lawful action to avoid it?
  Mr. Carrington: There are incentives to take lawful action to avoid the tax. However, I would be much more convinced by that argument were it not for the fact that it is a recent phenomenon. The incentive to avoid VAT was as great when it was 15 per cent. as it is now that the tax is 17.5 per cent. Nothing has changed in people's desire not to pay VAT. That may be part of the explanation, but it is unconvincing as a full explanation.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk mentioned the problem of taxes on cigarettes. I raise the issue for a parochial reason, as there is a considerable amount of cigarette smuggling in constituencies that are close to channel ports or to the channel tunnel. Such smuggling is bad in itself, because it denies revenue to the Customs and Excise and to the Exchequer, and I very much welcome the efforts that will be made to try to stamp it out. However, the incentive to smuggle is great because the price differential between cigarettes in France, in Belgium and in this country is so massive.
  I would be less worried about the problem of smuggling were it not having such a bad—potentially disastrous—effect on small shopkeepers and newsagents in my constituency. The great problem that they face is that selling cigarettes is the way in which they attract customers into their shops who then buy other goods. If customers find that they can purchase cigarettes elsewhere, they will not come in and make those other small purchases that keep shops profitable and allow them to provide a service to the community.
  I am not advocating a reduction in cigarette tax, because of the overwhelming health arguments for keeping cigarettes expensive. I have a daughter who is
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  aged 15, and I think that anything that stops her generation from starting to smoke—price is a big factor—should be done by any responsible Government. I am strongly in favour of a very high tax regime on tobacco products. However, the size of the tax regime is not the problem. The problem is the price differential between the United Kingdom and the rest of Europe. I echo the proposal of my right hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk that tax on cigarettes should be increased in the rest of Europe.
  Many of us find the interfering aspects of the European Union very distasteful, such as when Brussels tries to tell us in detail how to run our affairs. Cigarette taxation, however, may provide an opportunity in which we can use that same mechanism, which we find so distasteful in other areas, to have Brussels force the French—on health grounds, if on no other—to raise the tax on cigarettes. It seems to me that what is sauce for the goose ought to be sauce for the French gander. While we are about it, we could do the same to the Belgians.
  The Budget is a sound Budget. It is not a traditional electioneering Budget, because it attempts—successfully—to build on the great strengths of the economy. I do not believe that it will be a popular Budget in the short term, but in the long term, over the next three or four months, it will be seen to be the right measure, a popular measure and a strongly vote-winning measure.
  7 pm
  Mr. Malcolm Bruce: The hon. Member for Fulham (Mr. Carrington) puts a credible case for a cautious Budget. I am not sure that Conservative voters are quite so enthusiastic. I am sure that there are other Conservative Members who, at least a few weeks ago, were hoping for something less cautious than they got.
  In a way, the Budget was a testimony to the failure of the Conservative economic strategy over 17 years. The Government came in committed to cutting taxes, but they have increased taxes and the Budget has added further to the tax increases. The Government used to talk about sound money and prudent financial management, but they have created a mountain of debts and have failed to control public borrowing.
  The twin pillars of the Conservatives' economic objectives have been undermined by their performance: we have a mountain of debts, not prudent money; and we have tax increases, not tax cuts. Perhaps it is not surprising, therefore, that the Budget, presented bullishly by the Chancellor last Tuesday, has already unravelled as the commentators have got stuck into it.
  Some of the City commentators' challenges summarise how the Budget looks a week on. The Economist wrote on Friday of the virtuous unreality of the Chancellor's Budget. Goldman Sachs wrote of the Clarke conjuring trick and a Budget in which all is not quite as it seems. The Institute for Fiscal Studies pointed out how back-door tax rises wiped out any tax reductions from lower income tax. Schroder probably summarised the Budget best, characterising it as a Budget of smokes and—daily—mirrors.
  I criticise the Budget for the extent to which the Government have failed in what they set out to do and in what the Liberal Democrats believe to be the priorities of the moment. It does not have many redeeming features, apart from the reduction in the duty on spirits, which was

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  in accordance with my request to the Chancellor. The hon. Member for Fulham was right, although he would not put it in these terms, to suggest that the Budget was less irresponsible than was expected even a few short months ago. We can consider the Budget arithmetic later and the fiscal tightening included in the Chancellor's claims, but he has avoided the temptation to go for an election giveaway, which would have been an economic and financial disaster.
  I was intrigued as to why the Government took until Sunday to admit that fiscal tightening meant that net taxes had gone up. If fiscal tightening does not mean that, I am not sure what it means. It was extraordinary to see the Prime Minister trying to wriggle out of saying it. The Chief Secretary to the Treasury has put the Government out of their misery on that point.
  It was not a giveaway Budget: it was a takeaway Budget. We welcome the fact that it was not fiscally imprudent, but it was supposed to contain a triple whammy of lower taxes, lower borrowing and increased spending on key public services. That is not quite how it turned out in reality—it is a confidence trick. The borrowing forecasts are still substantially higher than those in last year's Budget. I cannot agree with the hon. Member for Fulham that they are coming down sharply. They are not coming down in accordance with the Treasury forecast.
  If we divide the difference between the total increase in taxation and the decrease in taxation by the number of taxpayers, we find that the average rise per taxpayer from the Budget and the indexation coming through from previous financial measures is £41 for the next full year. The forecasts are dependent on a bizarre decision to boost next year's growth forecast to 3.5 per cent. while cutting the inflation forecast to a mere 2 per cent. from 2.5 per cent. The trouble is that, if that is not achieved—very few people believe that the inflation target will be achieved—much else is in danger. The real spending rises will be slashed and the earnings growth will not come out as forecast.
  Outside the Treasury, there seems to be a consensus that the inflation forecast is not likely to be achieved. Of course, I agree that forecasting is an art, not a science, but I question the wisdom of the Chancellor choosing the most optimistic assumption rather than something in the middle of the range.
  The boasts on inflation are also not quite as good as they look. We are 12th out of 15 on inflation in the European Union. It is by no means clear that inflation is, to quote the Prime Minister, "in the box". There are signs that it could easily climb out, particularly if the Chancellor's forecasts are wrong. It is a depressing comment on the performance of the British economy, which the Chancellor likes to describe as a miracle, that, of all the countries in the European Union, the only one with higher long-term interest rates than those of the United Kingdom is Greece. That is a fair indication of how the international markets judge the relative credibility of the British economy.
  Mr. Forman: May I take the hon. Gentleman back to his remarks about the fiscal stance, so that we can be dear for the record what the Liberal Democrats are saying? He seemed to criticise the Chancellor for tightening the fiscal
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  stance, or for admitting to a tightening some days after the Budget. Does that imply that the Liberal Democrats advocate a loosening of the fiscal stance?
  Mr. Bruce: I was not criticising the Chancellor—his position was clear. I was criticising the Prime Minister and other members of the Government for trying to avoid admitting that the fiscal stance had been tightened and what that meant. The Chancellor was quite clear about it. My speech will make it clear that I am not in favour of relaxing the fiscal stance.
  The Liberal Democrats have, as every year, produced an alternative Budget. I shall not detain the House with the details—[HON. MEMBERS: "Go on."] Well, I could detain the House with the details. It has been extremely well received in the country. [Laughter.] Oh yes, it has. I am assured that the small print of the latest poll shows that the public's confidence in the Conservatives' management of the economy has gone sharply down since the Budget and their confidence in the Liberal Democrats' economic policies has gone up.
  Mr. Salmond: Sharply?
  Mr. Bruce: Sharply, but, I admit, from a small base.
  We have clear priorities that we believe are right for the country. We hoped that the Government would address them. They pretended to address some of them, but, as I shall point out, did not really do so.
  Contrary to Government claims, the Budget does not invest in education and training, bring down long-term interest rates or make a significant contribution to the reduction of the deficit, as we would have liked. I know that the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Mr. Forman) is fond of asking for the explanation, so I should tell him that it continues to be our contention that the complete independence of the United Kingdom reserve bank, as we would like to call it—the Bank of England as it is now called—would contribute towards bringing down interest rates and consequently reducing the cost of borrowing by a worthwhile amount. We pay a premium for the privilege of allowing politicians to interfere with interest rates on a day-to-day basis.
  The Budget does not make any particular contribution to assisting people to get back to work, by reforming the benefit system in such a way that people are not actively encouraged to get back to work, and by not making a serious cut in the tax on jobs, which we would have liked to do as part of our environmental tax switch. Incidentally, the Government claim to have introduced some green taxes, which, in principle, we might support, but we object to their just using those taxes as another form of raising revenue without any corresponding offset to ensure that people's habits are changed. The environment is being used as an excuse for taking more money out of people's pockets.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Michael Jack): Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that raising the starting point of tax and, indeed, expanding the range of the 20p band, which, as my hon. Friend the Member for Fulham (Mr. Carrington) adverted to, effectively precluded a further 400,000 people from paying tax, was a contribution to the work incentive?
  Mr. Bruce: I am in favour of such a principle. Indeed, the Liberal Democrats' Budget would have taken 750,000

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  people out of paying tax and financed it entirely by a 50 per cent. tax band on earnings over £100,000. Although, of course, I cannot deny that I regard such an effect as a boost to living standards and assisting people back into work, the Financial Secretary is missing my point.
  There is a built-in disincentive for people to move from benefit into work because of the risk, especially if jobs are short-term, of losing benefit while they have to reapply for it. The Government must recognise that that is a real factor for people on low incomes, which makes them very unwilling to take jobs that do not have a real prospect of either substantially better earnings than the benefits that they receive or substantially greater security of earnings capacity. As we proposed in our policy documents, that issue could and should have been addressed.
  We are recovering from a deep recession, which is, of course, welcome. There cannot be anybody who does not want recovery and want it to continue. I dispute, however, the Government's claim that the recovery has been an economic miracle. What has happened has been a welcome recovery from a recession. The recovery is not a miracle because of the circumstances that surround it—the biggest and most important being the growth of the national debt. The fact remains that, since the Prime Minister took office, the national debt has increased from £160 billion to £340 billion; it has more than doubled in six years.
  Mr. Jack: As a proportion of gross domestic product?
  Mr. Bruce: It is all very well for the Minister to say that, but the national debt remains a substantial burden that we have to service; it costs all of us. The public sector debt per taxpayer has risen from less than £5,900 to £13,000 since the Prime Minister took office.
  Mr. Carrington: I recognise that the debt has gone up, but the hon. Gentleman must recognise that we are one of the few countries in the European Union that will have a sufficiently low debt:GDP ratio to meet the Maastricht criteria. We shall be one of the few countries, on the Maastricht criteria, which could—if we choose to—join the single currency.
  Mr. Bruce: I agree with regard to debt, although we have some difficulty with inflation, interest rates and one or two other aspects of the criteria, including—potentially—current borrowing. The hon. Gentleman's intervention is very complacent, given that his party prides itself on sound money and accuses Opposition parties of irresponsibility if they suggest that there is some room for relaxation. The increase in debt since the Prime Minister has been in office has been exceeded only in Germany, which has had to cope with the consequences of reunification. In such circumstances, our relative performance is not good. The fact that others start from a higher base does not justify our not addressing our own problems.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer himself has described borrowing and debt as deferred taxation. Ultimately, such borrowing has to be repaid. In that sense, there ought to
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  be consensus across the Floor. The shadow Chancellor acknowledges that there is no room for any relaxation of the basic approach to public expenditure, although we may have differences of view about priorities and the ability to deliver public spending cuts. There is a tendency, even for Conservative Chancellors, to put the deeper cuts further into the future and somewhat to massage the figures in the short term to try to reduce the pain, especially when an election is coming down the track.
  As I have said on numerous occasions—the Financial Secretary will have been present on several of them in the past week—there is a tendency for both the major parties to try to defy gravity and suggest that it is possible to get borrowing, inflation and taxes down, while increasing public expenditure, especially in the areas that, apparently, people want. That does not ultimately add up. It certainly cannot be achieved unless we sustain growth for a significant number of years, at a level that no Government—Labour or Conservative—have delivered. That is where I take issue with the Chancellor. He has been rather over-optimistic in his forecast, to try to justify his position, to which the right hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon) drew attention.
  The Red Book forecasts that the public sector borrowing requirement will be £26.5 billion, compared with last year's forecast of £22.5 billion. It may be down from last year's outturn, but it is up significantly from last year's forecast. For the following year, the forecast is £19 billion, whereas last year that forecast was £15 billion. For the year after that, the forecast is now £12 billion, compared with the previous forecast of £5 billion. That is a significant alteration, to our disadvantage. The Chancellor's wise men and women, the independent forecasters, are slightly less optimistic. [Interruption.] I am talking only about the average. Such forecasts suggest that the Government are still failing to bring public sector borrowing under control.
  I particularly want to draw attention to the scale of the failure in tax cuts. The net tax cuts in 1997–98 will be £735 million, but the tax rises will be £1,085 million for tobacco and petrol, and higher council taxes amounting to between £700 million and £900 million a year. It is no good the hon. Member for Fulham and others saying that that is all to do with irresponsible Labour and Liberal Democrat councils—which the public elected because they were so dissatisfied with the Tories—because that is what the Red Book expects the council tax effect to be; it is what the Government have allowed for and what they are acknowledging will pass through the system. They are therefore recognising, presumably, that, without such latitude, local councils would effectively—probably—go bankrupt.
  When one takes the package together, the net tax change is a tax rise of £1,050 million on this year's calculation. That is £41 per annum per income tax payer. The Budget is therefore not a tax-cutting Budget, and the Government are not a tax-cutting Government. I am criticising the Government only on the claims that they have made about themselves. Although the Conservative party claims to be cutting taxes, it has increased taxes and, indeed, is forecasting further increases in the Red Book year on year for the next two to three years. That is not very impressive. The Government have not delivered what they set out to deliver or have claimed to deliver.

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  A headline cut in the standard rate of income tax impresses nobody when people realise that more is being taken back through indirect taxes. My contention is that, whatever the justification for the switch from direct to indirect taxes may have been, it has lost its appeal among the electorate, who have begun to see through it at current levels. Cuts in income tax, paid for by rises in indirect tax, hit people on lower incomes harder than they hit people on middle and upper incomes. That is unfair. The Chancellor has also found that indirect taxes are more avoidable than he thought they would be, and that suggests that income tax is still a useful means of raising money. Income tax is, in fact, still the single biggest contributor to the Exchequer.
  The Government are now suggesting that tax and social security contributions, as a percentage of gross domestic product, will rise from 35.8 per cent. of GDP in 1996–97 to almost 38 per cent. in 2001–02. That is an extraordinary proposition for a Government who said that they would bring it down. I do not suggest that that rise is wrong, but it is dishonest and disreputable to suggest that the Government were going to do something different. They have not succeeded in bringing taxes down, and there is no sign that they even know how to do so. That is why they have run out of credibility with the electorate.
  Government spending also lacks credibility because it is based on unrealistic inflation forecasts. In those circumstances, we could quickly reach a situation in which spending cuts would have to be much deeper and more real if the Government were to stay within their targets. For the Government simply to say that they hope that the revenues will compensate does not bear out the experience of the past two or three years.
  I agree with the deputy leader of the Labour party that the initiative of the Deputy Prime Minister—his "spend to save" wheeze—is exactly the sort of approach for which the Government criticise the shadow Chancellor, but they have now decided to adopt it as a policy in their dying months in office.
  Nobody denies that improving tax collection and eliminating fraud is worth doing. It is worth spending some money on that and, indeed, it makes me wonder why so many people have been made redundant in Customs and Excise over the past two years. It: is, however, questionable whether one can justify a projection of £6 billion of revenue from clearing up a fraud that has not yet been identified.
  I wish to conclude my remarks on the particular dishonesty of the Government's claims on education. The Government have claimed that there is a notional increase of £875 million in funding for education, including £830 million extra for schools. The increase, of course, is only in the context of the total standard spending for local authorities going up by 2.5 per cent. The Government, by definition, are saying that local authorities must make drastic cuts elsewhere to fund education. But the Government also want local authorities to increase funding for the police, the fire services and care in the community, and the public expect local authorities to maintain basic services such as planning, economic development, leisure, recreation, social services and home helps. It is dishonest to suggest that that can achieved without serious pain or that the increase in council tax is anything other than a small contribution.
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  Local authorities will have to cut essential services and raise council tax to get anywhere near delivering that figure.
  It is easy for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to say that he will allow local authorities to spend more—even though it is less than they are already spending—but he will not provide any contribution. In fact, he will give the local authorities less and he will put a cap on what they can tax. He will then claim that he is not responsible for the consequent cuts in services, but the public no longer accept that that is true.
  Central Government have a stranglehold on local authorities. The overwhelming majority of local government expenditure comes from Government grants, from taxes paid by the citizenry of this country to the Exchequer. The Government have refused to allow local authorities access to their own revenue and funding, and the consequence is that the Government cannot be held blameless for the effect. The Government wanted tight control over local authorities, and they cannot have it both ways.
  As a party, we believe that education is so important that it requires additional investment. In my constituency, in the local authority area of Aberdeenshire, we have rising school rolls and an expanding population. I do not know how we can possibly meet current needs—to build a new academy and expand existing schools—with falling resources. It will not be possible, and the Government fail to take account of the reality in their calculations.
  That is why my party opposes putting money into tax cuts. We suggest that the priority is education, and that is why we shall vote against the income tax cuts that are proposed by the Government. We shall divide the House and invite the Opposition to join us, to demonstrate that a credible education policy cannot be funded unless we know where the money will come from.
  The proposal to reduce VAT from 8 per cent. to 5 per cent. is not our preferred way to help people with fuel poverty. We believe that the utilities have the resources to do much more than that themselves. Indeed, our calculations suggest that the utilities could reduce the average bill by around £85 a year, whereas the benefit of the VAT reduction would be only about £15 a year. Although the VAT cut is not our policy, we recognise the strong feeling across the House that it would help people on low incomes, and we are prepared to support it for that reason.
  This is not the Budget of a successful Government who have delivered on their promises. It is an admission of failure from a Government who, after 17 years, have not been able to cut taxes but have increased them, and have not been able to control borrowing but have given us a mountain of debt. They are a Government of failure and it is time that they went and gave way to a Government who can set the right priorities and explain to people how investment in education will be funded honestly, and not by deceit, smoke and mirrors.
  7.26 pm
  Mr. John Townend: The tendency of people in this country to sell ourselves short still surprises me. I am not known as a Member who never criticises the Government, but someone listening to the debate today would think that our economy was in a bad state.

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  I am a member of the Council of Europe, and I visit Europe a lot on business, and I can tell other hon. Members that many Europeans are jealous of our economic situation. Anybody who has been to France—not only in the past two months but in the past year—or Italy or many other countries will know that they are jealous. They feel that we get the lion's share of overseas investment. They are jealous that we have the most flexible labour market in Europe. They are jealous because we put fewer social costs on our industrialists than anybody else in Europe.
  They see us taking their markets, and they are jealous of our level of unemployment, which is lower than Germany's, 50 per cent. lower than in France and half of Spain's. They are jealous of our floating currency, which has restored our economy, and they are jealous of the overwhelming dominance of the City of London. We are a success story, and we must congratulate my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor on the part he has played in getting our economy into such good shape.
  Like my hon. Friend the Member for Fulham (Mr. Carrington), I think the fiscal balance is about right. The Chancellor must watch the money supply carefully, because it is getting a little high, although we have seen in the past that the Chancellor is prepared to put up interest rates. In judging the Budget, I start from the premise that, first, the Government are borrowing too much—on that point I agree with the hon. Member for Gordon (Mr. Bruce). Secondly, the Government are spending too much, and thirdly, the Government are taxing too much.
  The Budget, like the curate's egg, is good in parts. Not surprisingly, the Chancellor has made significant progress in dealing with borrowing. He plans to eliminate the budget deficit by the turn of the century, which is a very good effort, on which he should be congratulated. Like the hon. Member for Gordon, I passionately believe in the benefit of the balanced budget.
  I used the phrase "not surprisingly", because the Chancellor has set about the problem of getting rid of excessive borrowing with much more enthusiasm than he has shown on excessive spending or taxation. Could that enthusiasm be connected in any way with the Chancellor's desire to see Britain meet the Maastricht guidelines and enter a single currency?
  Hon. Members will not be surprised that I now turn to the subject of public spending. I was disappointed by the Budget statement in this respect. I would have liked spending to be cut by between £5 billion and £7 billion, but the stark fact is that, despite the control total in the Red Book being reduced by £1.7 billion, there has been no real cut in public spending.
  That £1.7 billion has been arrived at by the use of mirrors, and is covered by £700 million from the sale of the armed forces married quarters and over £1 billion from the sale of the Student Loans Company. I have estimated that at £1 billion because, interestingly, the Government have not published the figures. Such creative accountancy is no different from France cutting its deficit to fudge entry into the euro by transferring pension funds from France Telecom.
  With the Government being so successful in reducing unemployment and in making the economy grow, I would have expected total public expenditure to drop. Frankly,
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  it seems to me that the Government have lost their appetite for reducing public spending. I know that we have a much lower level of public spending than Germany and France, but those countries are making a real effort to cut public expenditure in real terms.
  This year, we must admit that the feudal barons from the big-spending Ministries have succeeded in fighting off Treasury attempts to reduce their Budget. [HON. MEMBERS: "What about Portillo and Lilley?"] Actually, the Ministry of Defence reduced spending by a little last year—although the figure will be increased in the current year.
  Like Oliver, many of the Departments have asked for more. But unlike Oliver, many have received more. We are spending another £830 million on schools, but I hope that nobody thinks that that will solve our educational problems. Nobody can really believe that our poor educational performance is due to a lack of funds. It is due to the wrong policies in teacher training colleges, the insistence on dropping traditional teaching methods, and a lack of discipline.
  I am sure that the hon. Member for Gordon (Mr. Bruce) will not mind if I remind him that, although we spend considerably more on education per head of population in Scotland than in England, a recent survey of the performance of Scottish children in science and mathematics exams found that—despite that extra expenditure—Scottish children came out much lower than English children.
  We are spending another £1.6 billion a year on health. I attended yesterday's debate, and I was amused that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health—the last of the big spenders—was boasting of the extra £1.6 billion for the health service. He chided the Opposition, and asked whether they would match or increase that figure. I could not believe it, as the fiscal prudence of Labour Front-Bench Members was supreme. They said that they would not increase it, and would not even undertake to match it.
  Transport has received another £420 million.
  Mr. Sheerman: Did the hon. Gentleman find it ironic that we listened yesterday to the Secretary of State for Health—the man whose inept performance in March caused some £1.3 billion to be spent on BSE—talking about the need for more money for health?
  Mr. Townend: That is the most fatuous intervention I have ever heard. Is the hon. Gentleman accusing the Secretary of State for Health of going round with a hypodermic, injecting animals with BSE? It is absolute nonsense. We are spending £600 million on social security and £730 million this year on BSE, and, in total, BSE will cost the taxpayer £3.3 billion. One cannot help but sympathise with the Chancellor, who has to meet expenditure that has nothing to do with him. One must ask whether, in 20 or 30 years' time, people will feel that the money spent on BSE was necessary.
  In looking at spending this year, my mind goes back to the Budget before the last general election. At that time, we could have been accused not of trying to get back into power by promising tax cuts but of spending our way back to power. We heard no criticism from the Opposition at the time, although they used to accuse us of starving the NHS of money. Within two years, we increased public spending to 4.5 per cent. of GDP. I do not think that we

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  won the last election because we spent more, but because of the shadow Budget produced by the late John Smith, the then shadow Chancellor, who undertook to increase taxes on the middle classes.
  I have the disadvantage as a politician of finding it difficult not to tell the truth. The Government cannot be proud that, as a result of that increased spending, they created an unsustainable deficit. More than any other factor, that deficit has undermined the Government's reputation for sound management.
  I must be fair—not all the problems were caused by spending, as revenues dropped significantly because of the recession, and because of our membership of the exchange rate mechanism, which drove us into a far longer and deeper recession than was necessary. The reason that we have not been able to reduce spending this year is that every Department seems more or less to have got away without paying back the full amount saved as a result of inflation being lower last year than was budgeted for. They have not paid back the savings made on administration and better working methods.
  If we were really serious about cutting expenditure, we would have wielded the axe in certain areas. For example, there was no reduction in bilateral overseas aid. We have seen how much aid is wasted and how much has been used to feed the people who are committing genocide in Rwanda. Clearly, a lot of money is wasted in that area.
  There has been only a nominal reduction in national heritage spending, despite the fact that enormous amounts of money have gone from the lottery into sports and the arts. We have not yet taken the axe to legal aid, which is turning this country into a suing society like America, at an enormous cost to the taxpayer, the Government and industry. The recent reports that schoolchildren will be given legal aid to take out cases against their schools because they failed their examinations are sheer nonsense. All that will do is to reduce education resources.
  We have not made any significant attempt to bring expenditure per head of population in Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland down to the level spent in England. Because we failed to cut spending, the Chancellor had room for only a minimum reduction in the overall tax burden of £700 million. He was absolutely correct to do that, as it would have been wrong to cut taxes if we did not cut spending. Most of the tax cuts that have been made will have to be paid for by compensating tax increases.
  There are a number of measures in the Budget that I welcome, including the anti-avoidance measures with which we hope to reduce the amount of tax avoided by multinational companies and others who use sophisticated means. I welcome also the action taken on social security fraud, and the restrictions on profit-related pay.
  Those measures have paid for the reductions in the standard rate, the important widening of the 20p rate, and the lifting of personal allowances. They will help the low-paid, will help people back into work and will create incentives to work. I very much welcome the reduction that small businesses will receive from changes to business rates. I believe that, if Labour were to put its policies into operation, business rates would go up.
  As one of only two wine merchants in the House, I am aware of the problems facing the alcohol industries from cross-border shopping and smuggling. It is particularly worrying—I can tell the House this from my own experience—that smuggling is growing, and has
  866
  increasingly been infiltrated by organised crime. While the reduction in duty on Scotch whisky was welcome, I find it strange and disappointing that the Chancellor did not also reduce the duty on beer and wine.
  The distillers are not much harmed by the illegal trade, because they distil and bottle their product in Scotland and export it to Calais, from where it comes back to the United Kingdom; but the brewers suffer because nearly all the beer that comes in is brewed in France. I understand that the most popular brand of beer in Kent is St. Omer, which is not legally exported to this country.
  The problem is costing jobs in breweries and pubs, and is putting people out of business, so I was disappointed that my right hon. and learned Friend, who is so keen to get us into an integrated Europe, was not more active in dealing with it. We do not have the money to deal with it in one year; to make any impression, we would have to follow the Danes' example and bring down the differential between our duties and those in France by at least 50 per cent. I would have liked the Chancellor to set out a five-year programme to deal with the problem, helping the industry and undermining the smuggling.
  As one who speaks for and is interested in the tourist industry, I have some reservations about the doubling of passenger duty. I also think that the time is coming when we must think again about the automatic increase of the duty on petrol by more than the rate of inflation.
  I know that we all have to appear green these days, but I represent a country constituency, so I know that people do not stop using their cars, or use less petrol, when the price is increased; they simply spend more on petrol and less on other things. We are a car society, and, especially in rural areas, however much we spent on public transport it will never be as convenient as cars.
  Mr. Salmond: I understand that some Opposition Members will force a vote later this evening on the specific question of increased petrol and DERV duties. Will the hon. Gentleman join us in the Lobby?
  Mr. Townend: I would be loth to join the hon. Gentleman in the Lobby for anything that he proposed. If I voted against the increases, that would automatically put up the public sector borrowing requirement. I am not saying that I oppose the increases, but we should consider carefully whether we should continue imposing them year after year. It would be most irresponsible for anyone who believed in sound finance, as I do, to vote to put up the PSBR.
  I feel great regret when I see the table showing that the overall tax burden will continue to go up, on present policies, over the next four or five years. One cannot escape the fact that the burden of direct taxation has been significantly reduced, but as a Conservative I want the overall burden to be reduced.
  Regrettably, the Government at the moment believe that priority must be given to spending, especially on education, health and law and order; of course there are good arguments for that, and I should have thought that, on that basis, the Opposition would welcome the Budget, because the Government are doing everything they have asked for: more and more spending, and not much tax cutting. The Opposition are in a strange position, because we all know that a Labour Government would spend more and tax more, and that the public sector unions have been waiting 17 years for their pay-off.

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  The Labour party wants to do away with assisted places and spend the money elsewhere in education, but it forgets that the children with assisted places still have to be educated; if the assisted places grant is removed and the parents have to remove the children from the private schools and put them into state schools, far from a saving, costs will increase.
  The windfall tax will hit customers and shareholders, and it will hit pensioners, because the shareholders are mainly pension funds.
  The Budget has been a missed opportunity for my party. I had hoped that we would use it to put some clear blue water between ourselves and the Opposition, to set out distinctive long-term plans for reducing the burden of the state on the individual by reducing spending and taxes, and to set out long-term plans for slaying the albatross of the social security budget, which has done enormous damage to our social structure, as the hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) has made clear, by creating benefit dependency and encouraging the massive growth of single mothers and one-parent families.
  The tax system has done nothing to encourage marriage and the nuclear family. In fact, because of the increase in benefits and the freezing of marriage allowance, a single-parent family on the same wage as a married couple with the same number of children is better off; that cannot be right.
  It has been said that the Government should not use the tax and benefit system to encourage morality; I disagree: if the Government can, on health grounds, use taxes to discourage smoking, they can use them to encourage people to get married, to stay married and to bring up the nuclear family.
  I welcome the belated change in the Government's policy in unfreezing the marriage allowance, but it has been increased by only £6 a year. I welcome the eventual elimination of the single parent advantage for new single parents, but that is some time in the future. At least that is an area of difference between us and the Opposition, as I believe that they want to abolish the marriage allowance altogether. In the long term, I should like a greater commitment to marriage and a move to a transferable allowance.
  By setting out a programme for the abolition of inheritance and capital gains tax over the next three or four years, we would have put down a marker, and I would have liked such proposals to be in the Finance Bill, so that the Opposition would have had to stand up and be counted. Regrettably, that has not happened, but I sincerely hope that the Government will take note of what I have said; then perhaps some of my suggestions will appear in our manifesto.
  7.46 pm
  Mr. Giles Radice: I am delighted to follow the hon. Member for Bridlington (Mr. Townend), with whom I served on the Treasury Select Committee, although I did not agree with much of what he said. I share his concern about the state of public finances, and I want to speak about that.
  As for continental envy, other countries in Europe do not envy our policy towards the European Union, because they think that it is extremely foolish; I absolutely agree with them. Our negative policy isolates us in Europe.
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  This is my first opportunity to speak on economic affairs since leaving the Treasury Select Committee, on which I was fortunate enough to serve from 1987 until the end of 1995. That experience gives me a good perspective in which to set the Budget.
  I know that it will not help the Chancellor much, but I must confess to a sneaking admiration for him. His robust style, of which we have seen a lot over the past couple of weeks, is sometimes a breath of fresh air after the ambivalent platitudes of some of his colleagues; and, as the House well knows, I share his views on the single currency.
  However, the more closely one examines the Budget, the more disappointing it becomes. The day before the Budget, The Independent published the advice of four ex-Chancellors, two Labour and two Tory, and they all advised caution. I was particularly struck by the words of Lord Jenkins of Hillhead, for whose chancellorship even Lady Thatcher has had words of praise. He said:
  "I think it will be more responsible than any other member of the Cabinet would produce, but it will not meet the needs of the moment".
  I think that he has been proved right.
  I accept that, when the Chancellor took up his post in 1993, he had a difficult inheritance: the economy was burdened by a vast public sector deficit of nearly £50 billion, as estimated in the Red Book at the time, I believe. I see that the Chancellor has entered the Chamber. I said some warm words about him a little earlier, although I am not sure that he would be pleased about that.
  The Chancellor had a bad inheritance, because of the vast public sector deficit. The deficit was not a bolt from the blue, but the result of gross macro-economic mismanagement by the Chancellor's predecessors. First, the Lawson-Thatcher boom of 1986–88, with its monetary splurge and tax cuts, sent the economy out of control. The policy response to that was the Major-Lamont squeeze of 1989–90.
  I should point out that the interest rate hike started well before we entered the exchange rate mechanism. Unfortunately, the Government relied too much on a one-club policy of high interest rates, which clobbered business and the housing market and led to 10 quarters of falling manufacturing output—the longest recession since the war. It directly caused the public sector borrowing requirement problem with which the Chancellor has had to wrestle, because it increased the social security budget and reduced the tax take.
  In the run-up to the 1992 general election, we had the fiscal irresponsibility of the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Thames (Mr. Lamont), which has been mentioned already, which was sanctioned by the Prime Minister and the Cabinet. The Government went for tax bribes and massive spending commitments to win the 1992 general election.
  To give the present Chancellor his due, the strategy that he set out in his November 1993 Red Book, which I have just examined, was to put the public finances on a sound basis
  "so that the economic recovery … can be sustained over the medium term".
  That is why he introduced further tax increases in November 1993, adding to the earlier 1993 Budget of the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Thames, who

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  repented of his sins soon after the general election. That amounted to the biggest single-year tax increase since the war. The Chancellor, politically unwisely though with attractive honesty, admitted to me, while being questioned by the Select Committee, that it was equivalent to 7p on the standard rate of tax. Nobody has allowed him to forget that.
  The Chancellor, to be fair, stuck to his guns for nearly two years before succumbing to electoral pressure. In last year's Budget—in response to the clamour from his Back Benchers, who were worried about their seats—he gave away £4.6 billion in tax cuts. This year, he has given away a further £600 million net.
  As my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition said in his brilliant Budget speech—and to follow the Chancellor is the most difficult speech in politics, although this time my right hon. Friend had some prior warning that is not always available—the Chancellor's tax cuts do not begin to compensate for the tax increases introduced since the last general election. However, they significantly add to the PSBR deficit, which is still far too large, especially when measured against four years of economic growth, albeit modest growth. According to Keynesian economic principles, it is precisely when the economy is growing that it is most sensible and easiest to reduce public sector deficits.
  Let us compare the PSBR forecasts of the November 1993 Red Book with those in this year's book. The 1993 forecast said that the 1996–97 deficit would be £21 billion. It is £26 billion, most of which is accounted for by the tax cuts of this Budget and last year's Budget. The 1993 forecast for the 1997–98 deficit was £12 billion, but it will be £19 billion. If the Chancellor had not cut taxes in the past two Budgets, he would have hit his 1993 Red Book targets. By playing to the electoral gallery, for which I do not altogether blame him because of the pressure from his Back Benchers, he has failed to reduce the deficit in line with his 1993 plans.
  Mr. Forman: Surely the hon. Gentleman realises that the PSBR has always been the residual element, after taking account of huge movements on either side of the public accounts. As I suggested earlier from a sedentary position, the Red Book projects a forecasting error of £11 billion. Whether the Budget arithmetic is plus or minus £1 billion is neither here nor there.
  Mr. Radice: I am merely pointing out that, if the Government had not been pressed to go down the tax-cutting road by their Back Benchers, they would have hit their targets.
  There are further grounds for disquiet, some of which were mentioned by other hon. Members. The new Chairman of the Treasury Select Committee pointed out that several devices used this year make the PSBR figures look shaky. They include defining the sales of service married quarters and student loans as negative public spending. That adds up to £2 billion, I think. Unemployment has been forecast for the first time. We often used to ask for that on the Treasury Select Committee, only to receive a dusty answer, but the forecast reduces social security budget plans by an estimated £2 billion.
  After rubbishing my right hon. Friend the hon. Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown) for so long for his ideas for closing tax and spending loopholes, the
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  Chancellor has undergone a deathbed conversion. I have not worked out how much that is intended to bring in. I have seen a figure of £3 billion over three years, but the Chancellor suggested £6.7 billion in his speech. I am not clear what it is; it would be interesting to learn.
  The most serious question is whether, as the Chancellor claimed in his Budget speech, inflation is really under control. As Gavyn Davies and Tim Congdon pointed out in evidence to the Treasury Select Committee, and as the Chairman of the Select Committee mentioned, there are worrying signs that are all too reminiscent of 1987–88. Monetary aggregates are increasing; house prices are rising far too fast and unsustainably, especially in London and the south-east; labour markets are tightening; and consumer expenditure is going up fast.
  As several commentators suggest, it looks as though we are experiencing a good old consumer boom, which are well-known before general elections. We had the Maudling dash for growth, the Barber boom and the Nigel Lawson boom. I hope that this will not be called the Clarke boom. The right hon. Gentleman will be judged by history. It will be interesting to see what will happen.
  The trouble with this consumer boom is that it is rapidly closing the output gap, although we do not know how big that is; the Red Book shows that it is widening the balance of payments deficit; it could well increase inflation. It is unwise for the Chancellor to talk about a Rolls-Royce recovery, because the Bank of England's inflation report—and, in successive meetings with the Chancellor, the Governor of the Bank—have warned about the prospects for inflation.
  In November, the inflation report concluded:
  "Some further rise in interest rates is likely to become necessary".
  We shall see what happens when the Chancellor meets the Governor. It is to the Chancellor's credit that we all know what happens, because he introduced the openness that the Select Committee urged.
  It is essential that, in the months running up to the general election, the Chancellor does not play politics with inflation. It is a question not only of the general election or of the inheritance that will be left, but of how he will be judged. He knows well that the key to sustained industrial growth is stable economic and monetary policy. There should be no short cuts, booms or dashes for growth. Despite what Ministers say, there are no miracle cures, and there are no economic miracles.
  I am certain that the measures which are necessary to increase efficiency and growth are long-term measures. Ever since the election, my hon. Friends have been underlining the need to strengthen the supply side of the economy. That was always laughed at by Conservative Members, but it is interesting that they are beginning to borrow some of our ideas.
  We need to strengthen that supply side, so that we can break once and for all out of the stop-go cycle and keep the economy expanding. Hence the case for capital allowances to encourage investment, measures to improve education and training, and measures to bring the long-term unemployed back into the economy so that their skills and talents can be used. I am confident that my right hon. and hon. Friends will have the opportunity to put these measures into operation. I wish that I could say that I was as confident about the economic legacy that they will inherit.
  8 pm
  Mr. Nigel Forman: I am grateful to catch your eye, Madam Deputy Speaker, and to have the chance to make a brief speech to another packed House of Commons.
  It has been a pleasure to listen to the debate so far. I much enjoyed the opening speeches, which I found entertaining, by my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister and by the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott), who should have the political equivalent of a preservation order slapped on him because he is an essential part of the British working constitution and we love to hear from him.
  I shall make three brief and rather general points. They are all designed to bear upon aspects of what I thought was a sensible and well-crafted Budget—a timely Budget from my right hon. and learned Friend. I commend him for the way in which he has sought to keep on course not just the recovery but a sustained period of economic growth over more than four years since the depth of the last recession. I hope that he will continue to do that for many years to come.
  I touched on the first point on which I wish to focus in the debate on the Queen's Speech. I make no apology for repeating it, because it bears repetition. I welcome the Government's continuing commitment to sound public finances. That is not just a phrase: it is a cardinal aspect of any good macro-economic policy. That is being achieved principally by reinforcing the downward path of public borrowing, a point on which many hon. Members on both sides of the House have touched today.
  It is worth recalling that the public sector borrowing requirement was £45 billion in 1993–94 and is forecast to fall to about £26.5 billion by the end of this financial year, within an economy which is about £750 billion in size. It is always worth reminding our constituents of the overall size of the economy. People forget the dizzy proportions of the numbers and, therefore, that a PSBR of £26.5 billion in the current year—if it turns out at about that level—within an economy of £750 billion, although obviously still too high in ideal circumstances, is moving in the right direction.
  The figure of £26.5 billion represents about 3.5 per cent. of GDP. I believe that the combined effect of public expenditure control by my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor, ably assisted by my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, and his determination to safeguard the revenue which is such a prominent feature in this year's Budget, is likely to restore the public finances to balance by the end of the century. I applaud that aspiration.
  I looked at the Red Book earlier and saw that we managed to achieve three years of public sector debt repayment from 1987 to 1989, earlier in the lifetime of this Government. So what we did before, we can presumably do again. However, I gently chide my right hon. and learned Friend, on the assumption that he will be in his post for many years to come, that there is something Augustine's about the policy of returning to balance in the medium term or by the millennium or some other grand phrase. Hon. Members will remember St. Augustine's famous remark, "Please God, make me chaste, but not just yet." There is a slight hint of that here.
  I hope that my right hon. and learned Friend will use all his great authority, which was amply demonstrated this afternoon in his masterly performance at the Dispatch Box
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  when he was discussing the complicated negotiations at ECOFIN. I commend him for that, even though I was not able to catch Madam Speaker's eye to say something along those lines. I urge my right hon. and learned Friend to give high priority in the next few years to returning to a genuinely balanced Budget and rediscovering the virtues of public sector debt repayment.
  My second point is on the overall total of public expenditure. It is obvious that there has to be firm and continuing control of that overall total if we are to keep a grip on the economy. However, I am delighted to see that, within that overall total, Treasury Ministers—no doubt strongly lobbied by my right hon. Friend the Health Secretary, who is a very effective Minister—have found it possible to increase spending on patient services, which are what matters, in the national health service next year by about £1,600 million, or just under 3 per cent. in real terms. For my constituents in particular, although I am sure for those of other hon. Members, too, this is excellent news.
  Experience shows that the British people, throughout the social and economic scale, want a generously funded NHS and are fully prepared to pay fair levels of taxation to finance it. That is a view which attracts no criticism throughout the country. One has only to go abroad, as we all do from time to time, to see that the two facets of our society which are most generally admired are our system of justice, with all its shortcomings, and our national health service. Long may we retain those two pillars of our society.
  From a more parochial point of view—I have to speak at this stage of a constituency interest—I am determined to see that my constituents get their fair share of the extra expenditure which has been allocated to patient services. So far, the official figures that I have seen, which have been provided to me by the Department of Health, suggest that a mere 1.64 per cent. real increase in the public funds available for the purchase of health care in the Merton, Sutton and Wandsworth district health authority area, which covers my constituency, is likely to be made in the next financial year.
  I want to say to the House and anyone else who is interested in health expenditure that I hope very much that it will be possible to supplement that rather modest real increase in funds for patient services in my part of the world with an adequate proportion of the extra national funds that have been allocated to certain specific purposes. Those purposes are notably boosting primary care, easing hospital bottlenecks, further spending on essential mental health services and more training places for doctors and nurses. All those are part of national allocations which have been earmarked by my right hon. Friend the Health Secretary, and to which he referred in yesterday's debate.
  I am keen to see that hospitals such as St. Helier hospital in my constituency get a fair share of the extra resources. I hope that, at regional and national level, people who are responsible for allocating health funds in the public expenditure sphere will pay attention to the points that I have made. It is vital that we get the right decisions in order to ensure that all parts of the country benefit fairly from the extra expenditure.

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  The House will know that there are technical aspects of the allocation of health funds related to what are called inter-regional and intra-regional RAWP. It is all somewhat technical, but it means that, unless we are vigilant in constituencies such as mine in suburban south London, it is always possible to lose out not only to other parts of the country in the midlands or the north but, within the south Thames area, to the coastal areas such as Chichester, Eastbourne, Brighton and so on. I shall be vigilant in seeing that we get our fair share of the funds because I know of the excellent work that is done in hospitals such as St. Helier, where, incidentally, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister was born. So we owe it for that as well.
  My third and final point relates to tax policy. As I said earlier, I welcome the prudent and well-judged form of tax cutting in which my right hon. and learned Friend engaged in the Budget by cutting the standard rate of income tax by only 1p—the right amount on this occasion—and by simultaneously widening the band of personal income that is taxed at 20 per cent. As has been noted before, approximately 7 million people in this country now pay income tax only at 20 per cent., and that is definitely a step in the right direction. I say that with some feeling, because it means that we are now truly moving—slowly, but surely—towards our strategic objective of a 20 per cent. basic rate of income tax. I commend the Chancellor for making progress on that.
  Of course, I should like more progress to be made in that direction in the new Parliament, in which I confidently expect my right hon. and learned Friend to be doing the job that he is currently doing so well. I was therefore especially gratified to read paragraph 1.12 of the Red Book, in which was adumbrated something rather rare in Red Books these days—a statement of principle and of theoretical policy. It said:
  "The Government's objectives for the tax system have long recognised that low tax rates go hand-in-hand with a broad tax base, and that while special reliefs and allowances have a role in certain circumstances, they can have distortionary effects on business decisions."
  That principle applies pari passu to both taxation on expenditure and personal taxation.
  In that context, I shall conclude by drawing the House's attention to a well-kept secret—an interesting little document called "Single Rate Tax: the path to real simplicity". It happens to have been written by that distinguished old buffer, the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington, and sets out clearly how in a future Parliament—preferably in the first Budget of the new Parliament—the whole tax system could be sensibly and intelligently reformed.
  Simplification, in the tax sphere, is not simply a matter of the language of tax—it is essentially a matter of getting the structure of taxation right. I shall not weary the House with the details, but in my pamphlet I suggest that, in the first Budget of the new Parliament, it would be a fantastically radical leap, but one well worth consideration, to move to a single rate of income tax of 20p in the pound; eliminating all the allowances and reliefs currently allowable against income tax, except for a single personal allowance of, say, £5,000—which is far more generous than the current allowance—and making that transferable between spouses, so as to have a little in-built support for marriage and to enable families in
  874
  which there is only one breadwinner to benefit from the allowance of the partner who stays at home to care for the children.
  For the benefit of those hon. Members who are interested, according to Treasury estimates, the cost of that proposal would be somewhere between £4 billion and £12 billion in the first year, but that takes no account of the dynamic effects of making such a radical and worthwhile tax change.
  I realise that I am springing this proposal on the House rather late in the evening, at a time when no one has had time to consider it, but it is worth thinking about further. Such ideas are not only put forward by the so-called flat-tax freaks in the United States, but commend themselves to people who have thought seriously about the tax system throughout the area of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development.
  I conclude my brief speech by commending my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor for the way in which he is managing our economy. Long may he stay in his post.
  8.13 pm
  Mr. Barry Sheerman: It is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Mr. Forman). He is right about one aspect—that future Chancellors will draft Budgets and make decisions on taxation levels in a rapidly changing environment; and that radical approaches to the whole nature of taxation and deciding what sorts of taxation are bearable in a democratic society may be needed. All parties have to look with clear vision at how that rapid change will affect how politicians work and how Chancellors operate.
  I am never sure why we have Budget debate. It is an anachronism—other countries do not have these set-piece occasions. One analysis that I have read suggested that they are harmful to the economy, rather than helpful. Like my hon. Friend the Member who has just spoken—I have forgotten the name of his constituency—
  Mr. Radice: North Durham.
  Mr. Sheerman: It has changed—it used to have a posher name.
  Mr. Radice: Chester-le-Street.
  Mr. Sheerman: My hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr. Radice) is absolutely right to say that the current Chancellor should never be underrated. Like my hon. Friend, I have known the Chancellor for a long time and he is not only a thoughtful and able politician, but something of a wily bird. He is often underestimated—under that bluff exterior lies a sharp character, as most hon. Members know.
  As the right hon. and learned Gentleman sat down after giving his Budget speech, I thought to myself, "He'll never get away with this." A week later, however, I suspect that he has got away with it. I am sure that he picked up The Guardian today—whether he was in Brussels or on the plane—and read the poll published in it with a slight smile, because, ironically, it provides proof that he has got away with it. He did not want to produce a popular Budget. He did not want a Budget of which

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  people said, "It's an election Budget." He wanted the effect of the Budget to be felt over the next six months. He did not want any instant acclaim.
  However, I agree with many of the hon. Members who have spoken today, including the hon. Member for Bridlington (Mr. Townend), who have pointed out that, if we look closely at the Budget statement, we see that there are no public expenditure cuts in the Budget—none at all. Indeed, much of what we see is the careful orchestration of a real pre-election boom.
  The hon. Member for Fulham (Mr. Carrington), the Chairman of the Select Committee on the Treasury, waded in on that subject very effectively. He gave the example of inner London, where property prices rose 20 per cent. last year and more than 20 per cent. this year. There is every sign in various sectors of the economy that what the Chancellor did a year ago was to set up a boom that has now arrived. The dangers that it poses in respect of interest rates and inflation are present in our minds.
  The fact remains, however, that, at the moment, the Chancellor has got away with his Budget in the eyes of the general public. A review of the press in the past week, apart from the comments of the Financial Times, will enable the right hon. and learned Gentleman to think that he has achieved his objective. It was a very clever Budget and an unscrupulous one, designed to win the Tories the next general election.
  I represent a constituency in a part of the country that still has a fair amount of manufacturing capacity. After three years of pain and recession, we have, since the last Budget, been witnessing the beginning of a mini-boom—but those three years cannot be forgotten. They were three years of broken promises, tax rises, mortgage misery, repossessions, bankruptcies of many good small and medium-sized companies, and negative equity. The Chancellor's mission, which he set himself at this time last year, is to achieve an environment in which some balm is applied to the national psyche.
  Disposable incomes are rising fast as a result of this potentially inflationary boom and low interest rates. The feel-better factor is the Chancellor's objective. His real intention is to wipe clean the collective memory of the pain, insecurity and misery of those three desperate years. But how could even a very clever politician achieve that, when the fundamental economic situation was inappropriate for the measures that he needed to take?
  We have all seen what the right hon. and learned Gentleman has done, with his cleverly disguised measures. All knowledgeable opinion is aware of the damage that an overtly liberal Budget would do to inflation and interest rates, let alone to investment in the medium and long term. The strategy then was to introduce a Budget that stoked up the consumer-led boom, while posturing as a responsible Chancellor who was giving us a virtuous Budget.
  Apparently, we have a virtuous Chancellor introducing a virtuous Budget. Never have I seen the word "virtuous" used more often—
  Mr. Kenneth Clarke: Once
  Mr. Sheerman: I am talking about the press comments. The word "virtuous" struck a chord. But
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  beneath the surface the Budget is not virtuous at all. It will fuel a boom that will last until the election, after which a Labour Chancellor will have to pick up the pieces.
  To frame the Budget, all the Chancellor's skills were necessary, and it is interesting to see where he learned those skills. We have to look back at the kind of creative accountancy that became well known in the 1980s—the sort that would have interested Robert Maxwell and Asil Nadir when they presented their companies in an amazing light, although fundamental problems were clear to the practised eye.
  The accounting methods used in the Budget are suspect, and extremely worrying. The Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon) put his finger on that fact. Those methods may impress the Asil Nadirs and the Robert Maxwells, but they do not impress the Institute of Fiscal Studies or the Financial Times, which got it right when it said:
  "A combination of creative accounting and wishful thinking have suffused this Budget".
  In one sense, the feeling that the Chancellor is getting away with it rests on the view that evidence such as that in Tuesday's poll in The Guardian is just what he wanted to see. We see not a welcomed, popular Budget, but the long-term effect that he was so keen to achieve.
  Surely one of the clearest examples of that clever mixture of subtlety and dishonesty is the proposal to "spend to save". That is fascinating. May I be entirely sexist and say that any woman heading for the sales would tell us, as my wife tells me, that the real point of going there is to spend to save? Apparently it is a marvellous way of saving the family budget, because she will get so many good bargains.
  I have never believed that. But now we hear the Chancellor introducing his new philosophy—that he, too, will spend to save. I was fascinated to learn from the press that "spend to save" was the Deputy Prime Minister's idea. Those of us with a background in the fair city of Swansea always knew the right hon. Gentleman as a "Swansea Jack"—that means a spiv, Madam Deputy Speaker. Indeed, I have always thought of him as the king of spivs.
  So the Deputy Prime Minister came to the Chancellor, or met him over lunch, and said, "I've got this marvellous idea that you could add to your Budget: spend to save." It is a wonderful concept, which I have examined in some depth, and according to the Treasury press release and the Red Book, it will save £6.7 billion.
  That is an awful lot of money to save by spending an extra £800 million over three years on the civil service—the Customs and Excise and the Inland Revenue. I have always been interested in Napoleon's description of this country as a nation of grocers, and an updated version of that would be a description of us as a nation of accountants.
  Some of us deplore the fact that accountants seem to rule British industry; others applaud the fact that our accountancy skills bring so much revenue and business to the City and the rest of the country. There is no doubt that, if someone wants a good accountant, they should come to the City of London and the great practices in this country. Indeed, all our big cities are the same. Leeds is now Britain's second city in that respect, with much financial expertise and some great accountancy partnerships.

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  All those accountants and all that expertise are bought in by companies, perhaps as members of staff in-house, or perhaps out-sourced, or as consultants. If the Chancellor thinks that he will gain £6.7 billion by spending £800 million, he is pursuing an illusion. All those clever business accountants will not roll over and say, "It's a fair cop, guv. Here's the £1 billion. We'll hand over the cash."
  That is an illusion. We will not save £6.7 billion. I approve of the principle of having more staff to ensure that we bring in the full amount of taxation, but the idea that we will save that sum by spending £800 million, when we have the cleverest accountants in the world, is incredible.
  There is a dangerous downside to all that. If we give the Revenue and the Customs and Excise extra staff and money and say, "Pursue these villains; get the money,, they will probably find that the real villains who contribute to the shortfall in tax are the clever big people who have the accountants and the expertise, and can manage to avoid paying the money.
  What will the civil servants in the Revenue do when they cannot pursue the hard targets? They will pursue the soft targets, and I can see the £800 million and the new staff doing just that—pursuing the small and medium-sized enterprises in the manufacturing sector, the companies that must grow over the coming years if our economy is to be wealth-creating and successful. There is a grave danger that the expectation may not turn out quite as we wanted.
  I shall not speak for much longer, but I have two more points to make. First, I echo the views that have already been expressed on the private finance initiative. I have come across the PFI both as a governor of the London School of Economics and as someone interested in the higher education sector in general. My right hon. Friend the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne got it right when he said that the problem with the PFI is that everybody is in favour of it but no one can find out how to work it.
  I can tell the Chancellor that the university sector would love to use the PFI. Universities have been undernourished and underfunded for 18 years, the staff are poorly paid, and the previous Budget crippled university finances. The strange situation resulting from this year's Budget is that, having been severely bashed in last year's Budget, we have now been given some slight help. It may be a mere £200 million, which does not make up for last year's bashing, but the university sector still finds it difficult to complain about its treatment. I believe that the university sector has been badly treated in the past 17 years, and extremely badly treated by the Chancellor. That sector would like to use the PFI, but it is not appropriate.
  Every time that initiative has been pursued, it has not worked out. Last year the Chancellor talked about £25 billion that would be generated as a result of it, but the likely figure is about £1 billion. When I pushed the right hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr. MacGregor) about the famous hospital that will be built in his constituency through the PFI, we found out that the big announcement that was made the day before the Budget was not a true announcement because the deal has still not been signed. Whether one is talking about hospitals, universities or whatever, the PFI does not emerge as the opportunity that it was talked up to be.
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  This could have been a Budget for jobs and for the manufacturing sector. It could have been a Budget that got rid of the rotten stench of poverty from our land. It is none of those things. When we look at this so-called virtuous Budget it is clear that it is not virtuous at all because it does not tackle any of our long-term problems. It represents a lurch back to all the worst excesses of pre-election boom Budgets with which we are so familiar. I guarantee that, from Christmas into the new year, we will see signs of rising inflation and rising interest rates. Those signs will mean that the economy is getting out of control as a direct result of the Budget. I believe that that is a sad comment on the Chancellor, who could have gone down as one of the best of the post-war world. In fact, he will go down as one of the worst.
  8.31 pm
  Mr. Peter Luff: This has been an interesting debate, and there have been some thoughtful speeches, in particular those of my hon. Friends the Members for Carshalton and Wallington (Mr. Forman) and for Fulham (Mr. Carrington). It has also been a slightly confusing debate; there has been a chorus of praise for my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer from Opposition Members such as the hon. Members for North Durham (Mr. Radice) and for Huddersfield (Mr. Sheerman). I want to associate myself with that chorus of praise. We have a Chancellor who believes that good politics, good economics and good theatre go hand in hand. He is right.
  I have been confused also because I am not sure whether the Opposition want us to believe that the economy is crawling out of a recession or is in the middle of a dangerous boom. We have heard both messages from them. Of course, the truth is that the economy is on an even and steady course, which is a great tribute to the successive Budgets of my right hon. and learned Friend.
  I want to speak about three basic themes. The first is the kind of tests that we should apply to the Budget; the second is parochial, and concerns the specific benefits that the Budget will bring in my county; and, if I have time, I should like, thirdly, to refer briefly to the local authority dimension.
  There are three tests that I want to explore. The first is the Liverpool test, the second is the Dunfermline, East test and the third is my own tripod test.
  First, the Liverpool test. Last week, I attended the national prayer breakfast at the Queen Elizabeth II conference centre. David Sheppard, the Anglican Bishop of Liverpool, gave the address which, in many respects was unexceptional and entirely appropriate for a bishop. He applied a test to the Budget and said that we must ask how it helps the poor at home and overseas. I agree that that is a major test for a Budget. It was entirely proper for a churchman to draw that thought to our consideration, but he went beyond the bounds of what the Church should do when he added that the Budget failed both tests.
  I am afraid that that just is not right. In my judgment, it is the bishop who failed the test, not the Budget, because although I firmly believe, that it is his business to bring a Christian insight to the problems of society, he cannot bring such an insight to the solutions. I do not think that there is any great gospel authority about what level the deutschmark should be set at against the pound sterling. In the absence of any such authority on the very fundamental

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  questions about our economy, it is difficult to see how the gospel has specific solutions to suggest on other aspects of our economy.
  The Bishop of Liverpool was also wrong factually when he said that the Budget had failed the poor overseas. I disagree. He reduced the argument to a simplistic one about aid. I should like aid to be set at a rather higher level, and I should like to see us make progress towards achieving the 0.7 per cent. of GNP target. I was delighted, however, that, according to the Budget settlement, bilateral aid—the most efficiently delivered aid—has been protected. I must remind the bishop that the United Kingdom is the sixth largest donor in the world. I also believe that our aid is some of the most effective in the world. More important, the bishop should have given credit to the Chancellor for the work that he has done in leading the world in debt reduction initiatives. That is of huge importance for the developing world. I believe that he should have given more credit to the Government for their enthusiasm for free trade, because free trade will enable developing countries to trade out of poverty.
  The bishop should also have paid great credit to the Government for their peacekeeping activities around the world. Those activities have been funded from the Government's military budget—a budget that many Opposition Members would cut—and they have done much to bring stability to developing countries.
  The bishop is wrong about the poor overseas. The Budget will protect their interests and build on the Government's proud record of looking after the developing world. He is also wrong about the poor at home. I do not believe that Budgets should be just about the poor. They should be about the average family, too, and those who generate wealth by running the big enterprises that create jobs.
  A family on average earnings, which is about £21,000 a year, will be £120 a year better off after all the tax changes in the Budget, including the council tax changes. With earnings increases, and after tax and inflation, a family on average earnings will be £370 better off next year. They will be £1,100 a year better off next year than they were in 1991–92 and £100 a week better off than they were in 1979. That is the real measure of the success of this Budget and preceding ones.
  What about the poorest members of society? Is this a Budget for them? Just this week, an interesting document was published by the Department of Social Security entitled "Households below average income. A statistical analysis 1979–1993/94". It shows that there has been an increase in inequality—something about which the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) spoke at great length and with great indignity during his tirade. Of course inequality has increased; it had to. Incentives had been squeezed out of the system under the Labour Government, and they had to reinstated. An increase in inequality is inevitable and desirable to help bring about improved living standards for everyone.
  I shall let document speak for itself. It states:
  "All economic status groups"—
  in households below average income—
  "have shown increases in average income since 1979.
  All of the in-work groups and those aged 60 or over showed large real increases of the order of 40–50 per cent.
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  The unemployed showed a small rise in average household income of around 8 per cent."
  after housing costs and more before housing costs.
  "'Other' non-employed average income was up significantly, by around 30 per cent."
  The document then states that the results from the bottom 20 per cent. of households were not quite as good, but still showed some real increases. It states:
  "Income of the bottom 20 per cent. of unemployed showed a slight increase"
  before housing costs
  "on central estimates, but was lower"
  after housing costs. That is a subject to which I shall return later.
  The document concludes:
  "Households' standard of living will be influenced by their possession of consumer durables. Access to consumer durables in the lower half of the income distribution has generally increased faster than for the whole population;
  The bottom decile of the income distribution has higher median expenditure than the second decile, suggesting that the bottom income deciles are not the most constrained in their living standards".
  It is also interesting to note that the document states:
  "The rise in housing costs over the period from 1981 has been accompanied by a rise in quality."
  That should be welcomed by hon. Members on both sides of the House.
  The document shows that everyone has got richer as a result of Conservative stewardship of the economy, and, interestingly, that the poorest 10 per cent. spend more than their income suggests that they can afford. Moreover, it makes no allowance for the public services that benefit the poorer members of society disproportionately—health and education, spending on both of which has increased in this and previous Budgets.
  The bishop was wrong about the poor, but it is right that the unemployed did least well, as the document shows. The real test of any Budget is how it will get people back into work. Unemployment creates poverty, not the Government's failure to create a dependency culture. The Government and the Budget are getting people back into work.
  Bizarrely, and uniquely, the Labour party is approaching a general election with specific promises that everyone knows—I believe that "any damn fool knows" were the words of the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East—will increase unemployment. Labour promises a minimum wage, the social chapter and windfall taxation on successful companies.
  Mr. Eddie Loyden: I do not wish to defend the Bishop of Liverpool—he is quite capable of doing that himself—but if the hon. Gentleman was as involved as the Bishop of Liverpool in the interests of the people of Liverpool, he would understand the bishop's compassion for the unemployed, for example, in whom he has taken a great interest over the years.
  I do not believe that the bishop is a card-carrying member of the Labour party. His responsibility may not be in the world of politics, but he has an overview of many of Liverpool's social problems. The House should praise the bishop's comments, which reflect real social

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  problems that have not been tackled. I am sure that, on reflection, the hon. Gentleman would not want to condemn the bishop for looking after his flock.
  Mr. Luff: I am afraid that I shall disappoint the hon. Gentleman. I would wish to condemn the Bishop of Liverpool for suggesting that he has insight into the solutions to the problems. However, I agree with the hon. Gentleman about the bishop's compassion, his identification with the problems of his flock and the practical work that he does to help them. The problem is that his solution is wrong. The test that he set for the Budget is the wrong test. The best way to help the people of his diocese is to create jobs. That is what a free market economy does, against the type of economic background that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has successfully created.
  What of the second test, the Dunfermline, East test? The shadow Chancellor wanted us to judge previous Budgets by their effect on unemployment. I suspect that he would like us to forget that test now. Now he wants to judge this and preceding Budgets by the number of tax increases that he alleges the Conservative party has introduced.
  The scale of the dishonesty is breathtaking. Labour Members allege that there have been 22 Tory tax rises since 1992. The alliteration is what they are working for. In reality, there are not 22. Some of the alleged 22 are not rises, but failures to index taxation. That is not a rise; it is a failure to give a reduction. Some taxes, such as insurance tax, are counted four times. Looking at it objectively, there are probably about 10 genuine tax rises in the list, not 22, but even if we accept 22 as the figure, on the same basis we have managed 25 reductions in the past two years—a net gain of three to us.
  What really matters, and the test that the right hon. Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown) should apply, is personal disposable income; I gave the figures for that earlier.
  If the Labour party is so anxious about tax increases, what public expenditure would it have cut to avoid them? I regret the tax increases that we have had to impose, but it was the thing for a compassionate Government to do, and I entirely support that policy.
  My fears are compounded by the Labour party's dishonesty. We saw a very impressive document produced by my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury; I think I got that right, unlike the deputy leader of the Labour party. The Labour party wants to increase spending by £30 billion; we have seen it itemised. We have vague hints about reductions in taxation. Reducing VAT on fuel would cost £500 million. Changes in upper-rate tax thresholds would cost £1.4 billion. A 10 per cent. starting rate of tax would cost £8 billion.
  The increased borrowing that all that implies—spending up £30 billion, taxes down £10 billion—is £40 billion. We cannot take lectures on the lack of financial rectitude from Labour Members if they propose to increase borrowing by £40 billion. Either they mean it or they do not. I am afraid that I am forced to the conclusion that they are trying to be all things to all people, saying to interest groups, "We shall give you what you want, don't you worry," and hoping that they will not notice the grand total that is building up. All the little
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  pledges mount up—and the shadow Chancellor is desperately trying to control any pledge on spending and will not give a pledge on what I regard as one of the most important issues: expenditure on the health service.
  If we had been discussing a Labour Budget today, there would have been no tax reductions. A windfall tax, whether it raised £1.5 billion, £3 billion, £5 billion or £10 billion, would go nowhere near meeting the bill of a new Labour Government. The right hon. Member for Dunfermline, East is as wrong as the Bishop of Liverpool.
  We should test the Budget as though it were a tripod, because three-legged objects are the most stable. A Budget should take as little as possible of our money as fairly as possible—one leg. It should maintain excellent public services—the second leg. Thirdly, it should create the conditions for economic success. The Budget passes all those tests with flying colours.
  First, the way in which the tax cuts were introduced—thresholds as well as the basic rate—ensures that the first leg is strong. The 20p rate is effectively the basic tax rate now, given that it is now the top rate of tax for 7 million people.
  Secondly, the priority for health, education and law and order exactly reflects what my constituents are asking of the Government. I am delighted that those sectors receive priority in the Budget.
  Thirdly, the reduced borrowing profile and general prudence offer the guarantee of continued economic success. That can be seen in the international judgment of the foreign exchange markets and international economic analysis day after day.
  All three legs together will help the poor most, because they will combine to create the conditions for falling unemployment. The Chancellor is right to remember with nostalgia the unexciting Budgets of his childhood—modest, sensible Budgets, set against a strong economic background. That is what we have now.
  The aspect of the Budget that I most welcome is what is not in it, the so-called windfall tax—or is it a utilities tax? I am confused about the nomenclature. We hear a different definition every time a Labour party spokesman—the right hon. Members for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett), for Kingston upon Hull, East or for Dunfermline, East—opens his or her mouth. There is a spectacular lack of detail. Sometimes they seem to imply that the tax will be imposed in one year only. I do not understand how they can sustain that against their spending commitments.
  Will the tax be imposed on utilities or on all privatised companies? Is British Airways a utility? Is British Telecom a utility? Perhaps it is. Is the British Airports Authority a utility? Is Cable and Wireless a utility? I do not know. I wait to hear from the Labour party which is and which is not.
  I predict that, if ever we had the misfortune to have a Labour Government, the European Court of Justice might become almost popular with Conservative Members as the windfall tax was tested there. I do not believe that the tax will stand that test. One thing is clear: ordinary people will pay it—in increased prices, job losses or pension fund losses. It will impact on ordinary people.
  I do not often draw the attention of the House to remarks of Labour prospective parliamentary candidates, but the Labour prospective parliamentary candidate for Worcester has

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  "called on 'fat cat bosses' to bear the brunt of his party's proposed windfall tax on privatised utilities."
  I quote from an article by Shaun Connolly in the Worcester Evening News. The prospective candidate says:
  "There is no reason to believe it will be passed on to customers. People have seen the salaries being paid to fat cat bosses and are not happy about them. They have seen the cash literally pouring out of the taps and going into Severn Trent Water."
  I draw only one conclusion from those remarks—that the prospective parliamentary candidate for the Labour party in Worcester believes that the fat cat bosses will pick up the bill personally.
  I have done some calculations. By the end of 1994, we had privatised about 42 companies. Each company had an average of five executive directors—210 directors in all. If the shadow Chancellor wished to raise £1.5 billion from them, he would have to send a personal tax bill of £7,140,000 to each of them. At £3 billion, the tax bill would be £14,280,000. At £5 billion, which we believe is the correct figure, it would be £23,800,000. If the figure of £10 billion is correct—still only one third of Labour's spending plans—the tax bill would be £47,600,000. That destroys the preposterous claim that there is magic money there, waiting for Labour to get hold of it.
  There are only three ways of paying for a windfall tax: increased prices, with a heavy burden falling on those with low incomes, who depend on the utilities disproportionately and spend a disproportionate amount of their household income on them; reduced investment in the utilities—Labour claims to want to increase investment—with a fall in employment in the industries that would have helped to provide the investment; or reduced balances and increased borrowing by the companies, leading to a reduction in share values, a reduction in pension funds and so a reduction in pensions. That is the choice: price increases, job losses or falling pensions. That is how a windfall tax would be paid for.
  I shall briefly draw attention to the impact of the Budget on my constituency and county. First, I should like to single out the increase of £1.6 billion in health funding. That significant real-terms increase, as promised by the Chancellor, will give the best guarantee that our new district general hospital will be built, using the private finance initiative.
  Secondly, I welcome the increase in expenditure on the police, which has not received enough attention locally or nationally. The West Mercia constabulary will get a 4 per cent. increase this year, on top of a 5.9 per cent. increase last year. An extra 41 officers were recruited this year, even though there was funding for only 21. With funds allocated to enable the force to have 42 extra officers next year, perhaps the number it will be able to recruit will be nearer 60. That increase in the number of police constables was promised by the Prime Minister and is being delivered.
  On a more parochial note, may I express one caveat about the Budget? I should like a significant continuing investment in local bypasses. I hope that the Department of Transport budget can afford that. The Wyre Piddle bypass is a priority in my constituency, and I hope that the money for it will be forthcoming.
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  The education settlement for the local authority is generous and should protect budgets for schools fairly and adequately. Even modest efficiency savings by the county council, which it never seems to want to work towards, could allow a real increase in school budgets.
  In summary, the economy is the success story of Europe. The Budget is achieving the impossible: low inflation, export-led sustained growth and, as promised, falling unemployment, rising living standards, support for public services and increased consumer confidence. We have heard nothing from new Labour—no alternative policies beyond irresponsible spending and tax pledges: the same old failed policy of tax and spend. I make one Budget prediction: thanks in large part to the sensible Budget from our Chancellor, come the election, it will be the same old result—a good Conservative majority.
  8.52 pm
  Mr. Alex Salmond: The speech of the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Luff) was enlivened by his reference to Sean Connery. I perked up my ears, expecting some of that gentleman's wisdom to be dispensed to the Chamber, but the hon. Gentleman moved away from the subject.
  It is true, as the hon. Gentleman said, that Opposition Members have made some favourable comments about the Chancellor. I do not want to spare the Chancellor's blushes; in his absence several hon. Members said how much they admired various aspects of his policies. I shall begin by offering the Chancellor my congratulations on a limited aspect of his Budget—VAT repayment—then I shall tell him what I really think of his policies.
  I was rather pleased by the Government's U-turn on the disparity between the reclaim date for repayment of VAT by the taxpayer and by Customs and Excise. Three years for both is fair. As the Chancellor knows, I have pursued the issue for several months, and despite earlier Government claims that the three-year limit would apply only to the taxpayer, I was not surprised by the climbdown, in the light of the substantial evidence that the previous proposal was in breach of basic European law. It seems that the Government have climbed down before they were pushed down by both the British and the European courts.
  Although the Government may have saved themselves one embarrassing defeat by their policy reversal, I must warn the Chancellor that there is considerable legal opinion suggesting that their overall proposals on VAT repayments may still be in breach of European VAT law. For example, European law demands the use of transitional periods to protect the principle of legal certainty, whereas the Government are in fact acting retrospectively. They will be challenged through the courts on the matter, and should let the House know the Chancellor's assessment of that threat and the potential loss.
  I urge the Government to continue their new-found flexibility on the issue and to negotiate further with industry to ensure that the proposals that finally become law are not found wanting in the courts, do not treat individual taxpayers differently and do not introduce retrospective taxation. I seek an assurance from the Chancellor that the proposals in the Budget are not yet set in stone and that, although they are a sensible advance on the previous position, they will still be considered in the light of representations from industry and others.

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  I was struck by the number of references in the Red Book—we have heard such references in the debate as well—to the United Kingdom economy performing better than the other major European Union economies. When one examines that comparison and remembers that 10 of the 15 EU states are small states with populations of less than 10 million, it turns out that the Chancellor is comparing the UK with only four other countries—Italy, Germany, France and Spain. In a comparison that roams somewhat wider than four countries or further in time scale, the economic miracle that the Chancellor claims for his and his predecessor's policies does not bear close inspection.
  Since the Conservative party came to power in 1979, the UK economy has grown by an average of less than 2 per cent. a year. The EU average, without the windfall of oil, has been marginally higher at 2 per cent. Among our major competitors, Britain's growth performance over that period has been worse than that of Australia, Austria, Canada, Finland, Germany, Greece, Iceland, Italy, Japan, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Turkey and the USA. The economies of all those countries have grown faster than the UK's over the period since 1979. If that is an economic miracle, I should not like to see a disaster for which the Government were responsible.
  Even if we give the Chancellor the benefit of the doubt—if we acknowledge that he has not been responsible for managing the economy since 1979, and note that he is not on the most intimate terms with his immediate predecessor—and relieve him of collective responsibility over that period, an inspection of more recent history shows a similar decline. Projections from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development for 1996 show growth in the UK economy, during the enormous recovery hailed by the Chancellor, lagging well behind the USA, Australia, the Czech Republic, Finland, Iceland, Ireland, Mexico, New Zealand, Norway and Turkey. Many economies in the wide world are doing rather better than ours. Since 1979, the United Kingdom economy has performed below the European Union average—despite the fact that Norway was the only other economy in Europe with the benefit of an oil revenue endowment.
  In 1979, the standard of living in Italy was 6 per cent. behind that of the United Kingdom; now it is 6 per cent. ahead. Norway was 8 per cent. ahead of the United Kingdom in 1979; now it is 26 per cent. ahead. Luxembourg was 32 per cent. ahead of the United Kingdom in 1979; now it is 68 per cent. ahead. Portugal was 86 per cent. behind the United Kingdom; now it is 42 per cent. behind. Ireland was 58 per cent. behind the United Kingdom in 1979; now it is only 10 per cent. behind. According to the Library, Irish gross domestic product per capita will overtake the United Kingdom average by 2000 and Ireland will be more prosperous per head of population than either England or Scotland. That is a dramatic change in Irish economic circumstances.
  So when the Chancellor claims that the United Kingdom is the fastest-growing major economy in Europe, he conveniently forgets the small economy off our western shores that has grown almost four times as fast as the United Kingdom economy in the past year or so. To cap it all, nominal debt in the United Kingdom has doubled in the past five years, which means that the Chancellor will have some difficulty sustaining Britain's economic performance and reducing the public sector borrowing requirement and national debt totals.
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  Earlier this evening, when the deputy leader of the Labour party claimed that the endowment effect of oil and privatisation proceeds combined totalled £250 million per week during the Government's period in office, I noticed the Chancellor and the Financial Secretary making frantic calculations in an attempt to ascertain whether the figure was accurate. Of course it is correct. Privatisation proceeds and oil revenues combined have created an endowment effect—which the Government have enjoyed since 1979—of roughly £1 billion per month, £12 billion per year and £250 million per week.
  I do not believe that the Treasury team understands the extent of that endowment effect. Last week, the hon. Member for Amber Valley (Mr. Oppenheim), the Exchequer Secretary—there seems to be a proliferation of such posts in the Treasury team—gave the House his assessment of the impact of oil on the United Kingdom economy. He said:
  "In the last year of the Labour Government, oil receipts in real terms, in today's prices, were close to £1.3 billion; this year they are expected to be close to £1 billion. In the past three or four years, they have cruised at around £300 million to £500 million. The only time at which they were briefly higher than in the last year of the Labour Government was in the mid-1980s, for three or four years.
  Let us hear no more of this myth of the great wasted oil revenues. They never existed".—[Official Report, 26 November 1996; Vol. 286, c. 225.]
  I have seen the table depicting oil revenues since 1978–79, and it bears no relation to the claims of the Exchequer Secretary. In the last year of the Labour Government, oil revenues totalled £1.7 billion. According to the Red Book and at 1996–97 prices, if one projects to next year, oil revenues collected by the Government were less than their level in the last year of the Labour Government in only three of the past 19 years. They peaked at £20 billion, in today's prices, in 1984–85. According to the Red Book, they are now rising rapidly once again and are expected to total more than £4 billion by 1997–98.
  Only this Government and their Treasury Secretaries could be so ignorant of the extent of the endowment effect of oil revenues in that period. Some £140 billion, in today's prices, flowed to the Exchequer during that time. If the Government believe that the "great wasted oil revenues" are a myth, why can we not have them in Scotland? Why can we not add those revenues to next year's Scottish budget? The Exchequer Secretary says that they are not worth anything, so the Chancellor should not mind adding them to the Scottish total.
  During the great stone ceremony in Edinburgh on Saturday, I saw a poster which said, "Thanks for the stone back; how about the oil revenues?" The Exchequer Secretary says that they are not worth anything, so perhaps the Chancellor could be nice and kind to Scotland in his summing up and say, "Let's give away these worthless oil revenues which have nothing to do with our economic success and progress over the past 17 years."
  I shall support the amendment on VAT on fuel standing in the name of the Leader of the Opposition I shall explain why the amendment is important because, remarkably, I do not think that the arguments in its favour were deployed earlier in the debate. Fuel poverty affects an estimated 800,000 households in Scotland—one in three Scottish households—and those on low incomes tend to spend a greater proportion of their incomes on fuel costs than do wealthier households. A 1993 study estimated that

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  households in the lowest income quintile spent more than 13 per cent. of their total weekly expenditure on fuel, compared with 5 per cent. expenditure by the highest quintile.
  In general, it is more expensive to heat the homes of those compelled to live in poor housing conditions. To top it all, we know in Scotland, from work carried out and questions asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Moray (Mrs. Ewing), that it takes 23 per cent. more fuel to heat a home in Glasgow than an identical one in Bristol; that in Edinburgh, it takes 28 per cent. more fuel; in Dundee, 32 per cent.; in Aberdeen, 41 per cent.; in Lerwick, 53 per cent.; and in Braemar, 66 per cent. That justifies the requirement for a geographically based cold climate allowance. The issue of VAT on domestic fuel is of great importance to Scotland and to low-income families in all the countries of these islands. A move from 8 to 5 per cent. would be very welcome indeed.
  The words "cynical ploy" will be marked across the political grave of the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Central (Mr. Darling). The next time the Deputy Prime Minister pokes fun at him for not supporting a reduction from 8 to 5 per cent. some two years ago, I suggest that the correct way to deal with him is to stand up and say, "Yes, our policy has changed. In January 1995, the Labour party did not support the reduction. Now we have changed our policy and we do support the reduction." He should challenge the Deputy Prime Minister to say that the Tories have not changed some of their policies.
  The hon. Gentleman should not describe—four times in a short speech—the Scottish National party's amendment as a cynical ploy, as though the Labour party never entertains cynical ploys in the amendments that it tables in the House. It looks ridiculous and disables the argument for putting VAT on domestic fuel down to 5 per cent. now if he continues to defend his abstention in January 1995, which clearly was a mistake and a significant embarrassment to the Labour party. It would be much better to come clean than to continue to defend the indefensible and to allow the Deputy Prime Minister to ridicule him. Despite the fact that it is a Labour amendment, the SNP will be proud and happy to vote for 5 per cent. VAT on domestic fuel.
  The hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Luff) said that Budgets should not just be about the poor. I think that I quote him correctly. One difficulty with Conservative Budgets is that they never seem to be about the poor. Even when the Chancellor has choices to make, in terms of his modest tax reductions in the Budget, he makes choices that are not aimed at the lowest-income families.
  I asked the Commons Library to do a comparison between taking 2 per cent. off the lower rate of tax and taking 1 per cent. off the basic rate. In a full year, those options are very similar in terms of overall effect on Budget revenues, but they would make a substantial difference in terms of their effect on families at different income levels.
  For example, a part-time shop worker on £6,000 a year would benefit by £40 a year from 2 per cent. off the lower rate of tax. He or she would not benefit at all from 1 per cent. off the basic rate. A hairdressing trainee on £8,000 a year would benefit by £82 a year from 2 per cent. off the lower rate. One per cent. off the basic rate does not
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  benefit such a person. A researcher, perhaps in the House of Commons, would benefit by £82 from 2 per cent. off the lower rate of tax and by £68 from 1 per cent. off the basic rate. A Member of Parliament would benefit by £82 a year from 2 per cent. off the lower rate and by £179 from 1 per cent. off the basic rate.
  Mr. Kenneth Clarke: The hon. Gentleman is making a rather selective comparison between the lower rate and the basic rate. I assume that he is comparing one change by taking it off the 20p rate instead of the 25p rate. I hope that he has not overlooked the fact that one of the key things that we have done is to raise the threshold of personal allowances. There is absolutely no income tax payer who does not benefit from this Budget by way of a reduction in income tax. We deliberately raised the thresholds precisely so that every income tax payer, including the lower-paid, gets some benefit.
  Mr. Salmond: I have not overlooked the fact about raising thresholds; I am talking about the direct comparison between the choices of 2 per cent. off the lower rate and 1 per cent. off the basic rate. I would not vote against raising the thresholds. I shall vote against the option off the standard rate. The Chancellor will see from the Order Paper that I have tabled an amendment to take 2p off the lower rate, reducing it to 18p. I used that figure because the cost to the Exchequer would be similar.
  The choices that benefit the lower-paid are more valuable than the ones that benefit those with significant incomes. In view of the impact that the Government's policies have had on the poorest sections of the community in the last 17 years, a decrease in the lower rate would have been the right choice for the Chancellor to make.
  We shall vote against a cut in the standard rate of tax. That is not our policy: we want to concentrate help on the lower-paid. We will vote against the petrol increases. The Chancellor would do well to remember that we are now in a period of stabilising, indeed rising, oil prices.
  The combination of rising oil prices and a 5 per cent. real increase in petrol duty is having a substantial effect on rural economies and, potentially, on rural industrial units, because of increased transport costs. I plead with the Chancellor to consider that problem, because it is a double whammy aimed at rural communities.
  We shall vote against the increase in airport duty. The Deputy Prime Minister said that tourism was booming. The Budget imposes an unnecessary doubling of that charge, which will inevitably hit hardest the island communities of Scotland where air travel is often the only serious option. That is particularly unfair, and the Chancellor should be a little ashamed of himself for having done that. Perhaps he will see the light before he finishes his summing up.
  9.10 pm
  Mr. William Ross: I agree with much of what the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond) said, especially about air travel and oil prices.
  In such debates, I always express my concern about the sheer size of the public sector borrowing requirement. My concern is not lessened by the fact that it is coming down rather more slowly than was hitherto expected.

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  I am concerned about a subject that has not been mentioned, but will come into the equation before the year is over, and may prove inflationary. Some of us voted against the 2p cut in income tax in the 1986–87 Budget. That was accompanied by a general freeing of the money supply, which created an enormous number of problems, not least when MIRAS was extended to cohabiting couples so that both of them could claim it until August. I am concerned about the £16 billion that will allegedly appear in the economy in the next year or so as a result of the demutualisation of the building societies. That money will not go overseas in public sector debt repayment, but is all home-grown money. Did the Chancellor take that factor into account when he did his Budget sums?
  The slow growth in tax revenues is tied to the globalisation of business. Given the amount of money that is floating around the world between the various sectors of large companies, we may be driven, slowly but surely, towards a globalisation of tax rates.
  We have not discussed in depth the fact that the Government are not spending a reasonable proportion of the huge revenues that derive from motorists in one form or another on new roads or on the maintenance of existing structures. That will have to be paid for some day, and will cause a future Chancellor enormous difficulties, because the money will have to be found.
  Revenue is lost every year as a result of tobacco smuggling. The Chancellor will have received the brief from Gallaghers in Northern Ireland, which points out that six out of every 10 packets of hand-rolling tobacco that it produces are smuggled back into the United Kingdom, and are on sale at various markets within a week or 10 days from leaving the factory in Northern Ireland. The end result of tobacco smuggling is an annual loss of £600 million to the Exchequer.
  Although I understand the concerns expressed by the hon. Member for Fulham (Mr. Carrington) about the medical costs of cancer and other diseases, it would be a wasteful exercise of the Chancellor's powers to raise tobacco taxes now, because I do not think that there is any possibility, even with the new task force, of stopping smuggling.
  The hon. Member for Banff and Buchan has already mentioned the tax on air travel. We have no real alternative to air travel in Northern Ireland. Furthermore, there is a real cut in the block grant to Northern Ireland. It may be that the Government think that cutting expenditure in that manner and tying the diminished expenditure to terrorist activity will put community pressure on the IRA. Government spokesmen in Northern Ireland have said, "The bomb went off in Lisburn. One went off here, there or somewhere else, and the damage has to be paid for. It will have to come out of the Northern Ireland block grant. A school has been burnt down. That will have to be paid for out of the block grant." That concept is entirely wrong.
  The IRA want to ensure that Northern Ireland fails. Therefore, whenever Government spokesmen say to the IRA, "You are hurting Northern Ireland," all they are doing is encouraging the IRA to continue committing its violence, bombing and murder and imposing its costs. When the Chancellor considers the block grant for Northern Ireland and Treasury Ministers consider expenditure of the grant in Northern Ireland, I hope that they will keep that thought in the forefront of their minds.
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  We have real need in Northern Ireland, and expenditure must be related to the real needs of the place and not to an imagined buy-off with the IRA, which some people think is possible. Terrorist organisations are not bought off—they can only be defeated.
  9.16 pm
  Mr. Alistair Darling: I shall not deal with the issues raised by the hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr. Ross) now, although I shall do so in the course of my speech.
  As we conclude the debate on the Budget, it is clear that it will be judged on two matters. It will be judged first in straightforward political terms—whether it will save the Conservatives at the next general election—which is the primary concern of Conservative Members. At the previous general election, the Tories fought and won on one central proposition: that, year on year, they would cut taxes. They said that they would not increase VAT or national insurance and, in fact, accused Labour of wanting to do so. Their central promise was that they would not increase taxes, but they cynically broke all their promises. Therefore, I think that we are entitled to judge the Government not only on what they have done during this Parliament but on what they said at the previous general election and on what they did subsequently.
  Based on that judgment, we are entitled to form a view on the credibility of the Government's current promises. It is interesting that, when the Deputy Prime Minister spoke today, he spent less than 10 minutes of a 40-minute speech on the Tories' Budget proposals. Instead, he spent most of his time talking either about Labour's proposals or about proposals that seem to have been drawn from the land of fantasy. He certainly had very little to say about the 22 Tory tax rises that have been implemented since the previous general election. If the Conservatives broke the promises on tax, spending and borrowing that they made at that election, why should we believe them again? Cutting taxation was their promise—their "one-club" approach—at that election, and it was broken.
  Secondly, the Budget will be judged in economic terms and on what it will do for the country and our long-term prospects. The Tories tell us that Britain is now the enterprise centre of Europe, and that it has been so since last year. We are entitled to ask, "What about the previous 16 years?" If one examines the Tories' approach to the economy, one will notice that they use the same starting point with tax. They will say anything and do anything to try to convince people that their stewardship of the economy has been a success.
  The Government repeatedly say that, since last year, Britain has been the enterprise centre of Europe. But they are the Government who would invite us to ignore what happened in 1981, and the savage cuts implemented by Lord Howe. They are the Government who would have us believe that 1988 never happened, when the then Chancellor, Lord Lawson, stoked up an unsustainable boom. We do not hear much about who was Lord Lawson's Chief Secretary to the Treasury at that time, or who succeeded him as Chancellor—the man who is now Prime Minister. All that is to be forgotten. Instead, we are invited to judge the Government on what has happened in the past 12 to 24 months. We are to forget about what happened in September 1992.
  The Tories' claims about Britain as an economic centre in Europe do not stand up. We hear Ministers say day after day that we have the best prospects for a generation,

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  but we find that Britain has fallen from 13th to 18th in the world prosperity league. We find fears of higher inflation and interest rates. Higher mortgage rates are already beginning to show.
  We are told that we are in an era of low inflation. We are just coming out of one of the deepest recessions that the country has ever had, but comparing Britain's record not with that of the Tory Government in the past but with the rest of Europe shows that we are 11th out of 15 in the European inflation league. One of the problems is that, because the Tories have so weakened our industrial base and our economic capacity, whenever we have a recovery there is the fear of rising inflationary pressure that may become unsustainable. The only way to achieve the sustained low inflation and stability that we all want is to ensure that there is investment, and the conditions to encourage investment, in skills, technology and infrastructure.
  We are told that we have low interest rates. We are 11th out of 15 in Europe on that. We are told that unemployment has come down, but what do we find? One household in five have no one in work. What an indictment of the Government. Although the figures for those entitled to claim unemployment benefit are coming down, many of the new jobs created since 1990 have been part-time or casual jobs. That is an option that many people like, but for many others, they are the only jobs on offer. Many people are simply disappearing from the count. We do not know what is happening to them.
  We are told that living standards are up, but we know that, because of the 22 Tory tax rises, the typical family is worse off by £2,120. [Interruption.] Conservative Members do not like the figures, but they are true. Conservative Member after Conservative Member uses the phrase "22 Tory tax rises" because they know that it is true.
  We are told that we have the fastest growth rate in Europe, but—this is an indictment of the Government—judging the Government on their entire time in office shows that growth has averaged 1.9 per cent., which is lower than the growth achieved by the last Labour Government. Their claim to have made Britain the enterprise centre of Europe does not stand up to close examination, just as their claims to be prudent with the public finances and to be a tax-cutting party do not stand up.
  Sir Wyn Roberts: As I understand it, the Labour party is committed to reducing VAT on fuel to 5 per cent. That will cost between £450 million and £500 million. How will Labour finance that? I am told that Labour may well abolish the relief on private medical insurance, but that will produce only about £120 million. How will the gap be filled?
  Mr. Darling: The right hon. Gentleman has not been present in the Chamber all evening, but he has an opportunity to join us in the Lobby in 40 minutes if he would like to do something for his constituents. I shall explain the point that he has raised later. The right hon. Gentleman is in no position to lecture us on tax until he answers the central charge against the Government: on all
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  elements of taxation, they made promises in 1992 that they could not keep. We shall judge the Government on their record for the whole Parliament.
  Mr. Kenneth Clarke rose—
  Mr. Darling: If the right hon. and learned Gentleman will resume his seat, I shall certainly give way to him in a moment. When he stands up, perhaps he will explain why, as a member of the Cabinet in the previous Parliament and as a prominent member of the Conservative party, he promised the country that he would not extend the scope of value added tax. Why did the Conservatives make that promise and then break it immediately after the election?
  Mr. Clarke: I like the way in which the hon. Gentleman promptly changes the subject to something that he has just thought of the moment that it looks like he is going to be intervened on. I personally have no recollection of giving a promise not to extend the scope of value added tax. That can be returned to in just a moment.
  I intervene because I thought that I heard the hon. Gentleman say to my right hon. Friend the Member for Conwy (Sir W. Roberts) that it had been made clear where the shortfall of revenue would come from. I apologise to the hon. Gentleman for not having been here throughout the debate to hear the speeches, but I have not heard anybody make anything clear on that subject. Could he remind both my right hon. Friend and myself where the shortfall in revenue will come from? I see that he is asking his right hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown). Could they between them answer that one question on calculation?
  Mr. Darling: We have made clear that the shortfall will be met by removing the relief from private medical insurance, closing the loopholes on inheritance tax on chattels and making certain changes to the corporate tax regime.
  People in this country will be staggered to hear that the Chancellor has no recollection of the promise on VAT. Was he not around for the last general election? Does he not remember the promises that were being made at the time? How on earth can the Chancellor stand at the Dispatch Box or speak in the coming election campaign and ask us to believe him on tax when he said that he has no recollection of the promises made in 1992?
  Mr. Clarke rose—
  Mr. Darling: I am going to make some progress, if the right hon. and learned Gentleman does not mind.
  Mr. Clarke rose—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Morris): Order. The hon. Member for Edinburgh, Central (Mr. Darling) has the Floor.
  Mr. Darling: The right hon. and learned Gentleman really must learn to contain himself. He said a few minutes ago that he had no recollection of the promise on VAT being made. If he stops trying to interrupt me, he will have ample opportunity in his winding-up speech to explain that away.

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  Let us look at the Tory's record on income tax. The Prime Minister said in 1992—the Chancellor probably has no recollection of this either—that the Tories would reduce income tax year on year. The Prime Minister is saying on posters up and down the country—at least his glasses are saying it:
  "As promised. Lower income tax."
  What is the truth? The truth is that people pay more tax now as a proportion of their income than they did in 1979. We know that that is true from Treasury figures, which show that direct taxation—that includes income tax—has increased during this Parliament. We know that from the Red Book because we can see that the proportion of tax taken has risen not only since 1979 but throughout this Parliament. As if that was not enough, a report in today's edition of The Daily Telegraph says that the Prime Minister is angry because the Chief Secretary to the Treasury told the truth about tax on Sunday when he said that tax was going to go up.
  I was not particularly enthusiastic when I was told that I had to appear on "Dimbleby" with the Chief Secretary on Sunday. It was a long way to go for 50 minutes—but it was 50 minutes well spent. Time and time again, as I shall show, the Chief Secretary shed some light on what the Tories have been doing and what they plan for the future.
  Mr. Waldegrave: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Darling: I promise that I will in a minute. I have not finished referring to the right hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Dimbleby asked whether the tax taken on income tax meant that people were worse off than they were in 1992. The Chief Secretary said:
  "I think that's broadly right."
  He of course went on to mention national insurance contributions, which have been increased. Does he have no recollection of saying that? The transcript of the programme is available.
  The Chief Secretary said more when it came to the subject of value added tax. He was asked whether the Tories had promised that they would not extend it. What did the right hon. Gentleman say? He said:
  "Heh, well, the … what we're saying, and it's true, is that our first priority, as we can return overall to a … position where we can begin to look again at tax cuts, is to relieve the pressure on income tax. There's no secret that the Conservatives, right back to 1979, have always said, 'We prefer to take tax off, direct taxation off income tax and to put it—if you have to put it—on indirect … all the other taxes'".
  In other words—here we have it—that is an admission not only that VAT has gone up but that the Conservative party's intention is to carry on transferring tax from income tax to value added tax.
  Mr. Waldegrave: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Darling: By all means.
  Mr. Waldegrave: That was feeble. Will the hon. Gentleman now acknowledge that his party's poster, which says that people are £2,000 worse off and about which he was cross-examined by Mr. Dimbleby but had no answer, is completely false because it is the language
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  of living standards? The hon. Gentleman knows well that his bogus tax calculations still leave out the fact that people are better off by more than that, if all taxes are taken into account. That poster is therefore completely false.
  Mr. Darling: If there is any judgment on what we both said on that programme, the right hon. Gentleman will find that he comes off slightly worse than anyone else who appeared. I have made my position clear and I stand by it—because of the taxes that the Government have put up, the typical family is £2,120 worse off. That is true. [Interruption.] Right hon. Members on the Treasury Bench may shout and bawl as much as they like, but people know that taxes have gone up under the Conservatives when they promised that they would not.
  I return to the point about value added tax. We were told at the last election, despite the fact that the Chancellor does not recall it, that VAT would not be extended in scope. In 1979, the Tories said that they would not increase VAT, but in their first Budget the then Chancellor, Lord Howe, doubled VAT. In 1992, they said that they had no plans or need to extend the scope of VAT. What did they do? They put VAT on gas and electricity. The Chief Secretary, in his interview on Sunday, made it clear that the Conservatives' preferred option is to transfer taxes from direct income taxes to VAT. We will ask, just as Mr. Dimbleby asked, about the Government's intentions in the future. Will they give a similar undertaking on VAT? If they do, frankly no one will believe them.
  The position on national insurance is the same. What did the Government say in 1992? They said that they would not increase national insurance, yet they did and national insurance went up to 10 per cent. They still say that we can trust them on tax. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition asked, on the day that the Budget statement was made, how we can trust the Conservative party when we see what it said during the general election in 1992. As my right hon. Friend pointed out, a year after the election the Prime Minister gave an interview in the Los Angeles Times. He was asked:
  "a year later, you find yourself under fire. What happened?"
  The Prime Minister said:
  "I said … the day after we won the election, with a number of people around me: 'Within the next 12 months the government will be the most unpopular we have seen for a long timer!'"—[Official Report, 26 November 1996; Vol. 286, c. 177.]
  Mr. Forman: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Darling: The hon. Gentleman stood on the same manifesto as the Prime Minister. How was it that, the day after the election, when the recovery was supposed to be starting, the Prime Minister knew that the Conservative party would be unpopular, if not for the fact that he knew full well that taxes would have to go up and that the Tories would have to break every promise they had made on tax at the general election?
  Mr. Forman: I am trying to follow the hon. Gentleman's argument as well as I can. If he is so concerned about the overall burden of taxation and national insurance taken together, and if he intends to be taken seriously as a potential member of a future Labour

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  Government, will he give his pledge to the House of Commons tonight that his Government would not seek to raise the overall level of tax and national insurance as a proportion of GDP?
  Mr. Darling: As we have made repeatedly clear, before the election we will make clear what we intend to do. That is an important point, because it touches on the matter raised by the right hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr. MacGregor), who made the same point 12 months ago. Unlike the Tories, we will not promise anything unless we know that we can deliver it, whether on spending, borrowing or levels of taxation. The Conservative party must now rue the day when such reckless promises were made on tax, borrowing and spending, because they were not sustainable. One of the reasons why people do not trust the Conservatives is that they made promises at the last election which they could not keep.
  Mr. MacGregor: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Darling: Perhaps in a minute. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the ludicrous claims made by the Conservatives about alleged promises made by us. Despite his many commitments, I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman has time to read the newspapers and to look at the television. He must know that every one of the 89 allegations made against us about spending commitments was proved to be false. The allegations were not true, and they have no more substance than did the same allegations made about us in 1992.
  The Conservatives must know that, no matter what they say on tax, spending, borrowing or our promises, no one believes them. The evidence is there—no one believes the Tories any more, and it does them no good to keep repeating the same things. Repeating them does not make them any better.
  Mr. MacGregor: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Darling: If the right hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I will not, because I think that I have answered his point. I know that the Chancellor will be keen to reply to the Budget debate.
  Mr. Kenneth Clarke indicated dissent.
  Mr. Darling: The Chancellor shakes his head—he does not want to reply to the debate. No wonder, because he has a lot of explaining to do not just on tax, but on spending.
  On the Government's spending proposals, looking at what has happened since 1979, there are one or two interesting points. First, the Government promised to cut the share of national income taken by the state. In fact, it is virtually the same now in percentage terms as it was in 1979. It is interesting that the burden of public spending has moved from those services that invest in the country, such as education, to those elements that are concerned with rescuing the damage done by economic failure. For example, the social security budget has increased
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  dramatically—not because the Government have been generous in terms of benefit, but because we are paying the price of economic failure.
  We are asked to believe that tax is coming down and spending is going up this year, but let us look at some of the areas concerned. On transport, I refer to a document produced by the Department of Transport on spending plans, some of which have been referred to tonight. The civil servant who wrote the document was candid and said that they had had to cut many of the proposals. Much of the discussion, it seems, was not on what roads were to be built but on how to manage the bad news. The writer said that the proposal
  "would inevitably be perceived as 'bad news"
  and added that, last year,
  "we took great pains to issue the results on Budget Day, and with considerable success: the Department … was not blamed for the very substantial cut-back."
  That is an interesting insight into how the Government regard public spending, with the main effort being directed into covering up the Government proposal.
  We have been promised that, despite this tough spending round, more money would be spent on health. But, a year after the general election, we find that spending on health is set to be reduced in real terms. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] It is abundantly clear in the Red Book that public spending on the health service is due to be reduced in real terms. Let me be helpful to Conservative Members. The Government have said that the money is to be transferred in respect of care in the community to the Department of the Environment, but the budget for that Department is to be cut as well. If more money is to be spent in that area, it must come as a result of cuts in other services or an increase in council taxes.
  In education, we find the same thing. Again, the Chief Secretary was illuminating on this matter on Sunday, because he was asked where the extra money was coming from and whether it was a real increase. As we have pointed out, the Government are simply increasing the authority of local authorities to spend on education—in fact, it is £73 million less than they are currently spending. The Chief Secretary was illuminating—he will probably get another row from the Prime Minister—because he said that the Government were allowing local authorities to spend more, not that there would be more money. He said:
  "what we talk about is spending power … horrible jargon … but the capacity to spend."
  It is not new money, but simply "the capacity to spend".
  It comes as no surprise that council taxes are set to rise this year. The Government may claim that they are reducing the basic rate of income tax, but everybody knows that taxes are going up elsewhere. Last year, the Chief Secretary was again helpful. He told the Treasury Select Committee that council taxes would rise by 8 per cent. When asked on Sunday by Mr. Dimbleby what he was going to say this year, he replied
  "I'm not going to say it."
  No wonder he does not want to say. [Interruption.] That is what he said, and I recommend that every member of the Cabinet reads a transcript of the programme, because they might find it illuminating.
  On tax, spending and borrowing, the Conservatives' record does not bear scrutiny; their promises cannot be kept because they have not been able to run the economy so as to create the sustainable growth that will generate the wealth we need.

  897
  Let us consider the Government's record on growth, investment, tax and spending. The truth is that we cannot trust the Tories. Never mind what is said or believed in the House, the public know what is happening with schools and with hospital waiting lists; they know that one in five households have no one in work, and they can see the second generation growing up without any experience of work. That is why they have had enough of the Conservatives.
  The Chancellor does not trust the Prime Minister on Europe; that is why he tried to stitch him up yesterday on the radio. The Prime Minister does not trust the Chief Secretary on tax; he and the Deputy Prime Minister say that taxes are down, and on the same programme on the same channel on the same day, the Chief Secretary says that they are up. There is drift and disarray. No one believes the Conservatives, and the country has increasingly had enough of the Government. People know full well that they will be better off with Labour.
  9.40 pm
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Kenneth Clarke): This is the last speech of the debate on the Budget, but at times in the speech of the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Central (Mr. Darling), as in those of many Opposition Members, one could almost have forgotten that we were talking about that Budget.
  The Budget was delivered against a background of growth and of economic prospects that the country has not seen for many years. It will help to make Britain and the people of Britain better off, and it will secure our prosperity for many years to come.
  The hon. Member for Edinburgh, Central had the nerve to suggest that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition had devoted the minority of his speech to the Budget—[Laughter.]—I meant to say, my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister. He spent a greater proportion of his speech talking about the Budget than did the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Central. I have never heard a more desperate high-speed rant, going through all the slogans, clichæs and statistics with which the Opposition have tried to obscure their approach to the Budget and to distract the public from the good news that it contains.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk (Mr. MacGregor) and my hon. Friends the Members for Carshalton and Wallington (Mr. Forman), for Worcester (Mr. Luff), for Bridlington (Mr. Townend) and for Fulham (Mr. Carrington) all dealt with the Budget, and reinforced the good message that we are sending to the country.
  Even the hon. Members for North Durham (Mr. Radice) and for Hudclersfield (Mr. Sheerman) had something to say about the Budget in their thoughtful speeches, which included grudging praise, perhaps not entirely unconnected with the fact that I occasionally appear on the same platform as the hon. Member for North Durham, and that I bought the book written by the hon. Member for Huddersfield—and read it.
  Those speeches were far more to the point than the evasions, slogans and downright misleading statistics that we heard from the Opposition Front Bench. One statistic that Opposition Members have not been able to escape throughout the debate has been our assertion that, since the equivalent year before the previous election, the effect
  898
  on the average British family—that family first identified as a statistical average by the Opposition—of all the tax changes, inflation and movement of earnings that they have experienced, has been to make them £20 a week better off in today's money.
  That is why we hear all this nonsense and all the peculiar extracts from the Red Book.
  Mr. Radice: It is the Government's Red Book.
  Mr. Clarke: Our Red Book, used properly, is an extremely informative book, which should strike some concern into the Opposition, and remind them why they will stay in opposition.
  The one figure that the Opposition have not been able to shake, or attempted to shake, is our assertion that the average family is £20 a week better off, after all tax changes both up and down over the past four years, and after inflation. That is not the result only of individual Budget measures, Budget after Budget, but of a combination of policies: the way in which we have handled the public finances and the control of inflation, and created a climate for an enterprise economy.
  It is the success of British industry and commerce, and the men and women who work in them, and the climate that we have created, that have made people £20 each week better off in today's money than they were before the last general election. The British public know that we will continue to build on that as long they stick with the economic management that the Government are providing and can look forward to at least five more years of Conservative Budgets, and keep out of power people who produce speeches on that prospect that are merely combinations of sound bites, peculiar statistical extractions and fantasy league tables.
  Mr. Rhodri Morgan: If the Chancellor wants his measure to be taken seriously, he must say what is the bite of the increase in the tax burden, and consider the difference between people's earnings gross, before stoppages. The only comparable measure would be that for the same stage in the previous trade cycle. If he could produce his £20-a-week-better-off statistic in relation to the same stage of the previous trade cycle, it would be a fair point, but he cannot. I can see that he does not even understand what the trade cycle is. That is his problem. If he did, he could be taken seriously.
  Mr. Clarke: The idea that all the improvements of the past few years are purely cyclical and that the Government have stood aside and allowed things to happen is preposterous. I defy the hon. Gentleman to find a time in any stage of any previous trade cycle when the average family was better off than it is now. [Interruption.] I am making comparisons with the equivalent time before the last general election, which are frequently made by the Labour party. With all its statistics, it cannot wriggle away from the fact that the average family is £20 a week better off. The hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. Morgan) should have a word with his Front-Bench colleagues on the trade cycle.
  I shall not waste too much time on league tables, because I have little time left. It has been pointed out repeatedly that one of the ways in which the Opposition fiddle even the more credible league tables they produce

  899
  is by taking 1979 as a base year—a year in which we went into recession. If we take figures from peak to peak and from trough to trough, we do not get the sort of league tables that the Opposition use against us.
  Let us take other things that have never been challenged by the Labour party throughout the debates on the economy and the Budget. The economy is well into its fifth successive year of economic growth; that is incontrovertible. I have forecast 2.5 per cent. growth this year and 3.5 per cent. in 1997. I pray in aid the fact that the International Monetary Fund and the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development expect the United Kingdom to be the fastest growing major European economy both this year and next.
  As the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond) said, I am comparing Britain with similar major economies in western Europe that we are outstripping. That basic, important assertion has never been addressed or denied. The Opposition have never posed an alternative. The extraordinary footnote searching that they have gone in for is designed to obscure that undeniable fact, which is supported by the OECD and the IMF.
  Mr. Gerald Bermingham: Does the Chancellor agree that honesty in fiscal matters is terribly important? Does not the Government's decision on 19 July—I declare an interest—to cut to three years the period in which one can claim for overpayment of VAT contravene the European Court ruling? We should bear in mind the comments of the Advocate General. Is that not another example of the Government being cheapskate and taking money that they should repay to ordinary taxpayers?
  Mr. Clarke: Had the hon. Gentleman rejoined our discussions only about an hour earlier, he would have heard the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan make exactly the same point. First, as far as I understand it, everyone welcomes my decision to make three years the period for reclaiming tax, both for Customs and for the taxpayer.
  I assure both hon. Gentlemen that the proposals do not breach European law. We have looked into it, and we are satisfied that they do not. They have been modified to take account of industry's views. We have met the points in both the Advocate General's opinion and the Walbraeck opinions, which I think is what the hon. Gentlemen were referring to.
  Lawyers may challenge the measures if they wish, but we are satisfied that we are within the law. The measures protect many millions of pounds of revenue, and they should be welcomed by the House. They reinforce the credibility of the figures in the Red Book on borrowing and revenue on which Opposition Members try to cast doubt.
  Mr. Radice: The Chancellor's Red Book gives the taxes and national insurance contributions as 34.25 per cent. of GDP for 1992–93 after the Lamont Budget and 36.25 per cent. for 1997–98. That is an increase in tax take.
  Mr. Clarke: The hon. Gentleman has to be careful when using the Red Book on his feet. He had to choose
  900
  the right figures in the right places. I saw his finger moving up and down the page to choose the correct base year. We have chosen comparable base years—the year before the last election and the year before the next election. In so far as the hon. Gentleman detects an increase in the overall tax and NICs, it is because there are fewer people unemployed and more people in work. People are earning more and going into higher tax brackets.
  When Opposition Members suddenly get hold of the Red Book and look at the years ahead, they should bear it in mind that they will see that pattern in all the Red Books if they look at the years ahead before any tax adjustments are made in the subsequent Budget. Sometimes it is called fiscal drift. It is the fact that one assumes that, in years ahead, present tax levels will be merely indexed; that wages will go up faster than inflation, which they undoubtedly are doing; that unemployment will fall; that the number of people in work will increase; that the amount they earn will go up. So one shows projections of increases in the tax and NIC take.
  It is prosperity that Labour Members are describing as an increase in the tax burden. It happens to be the case that people pay more when they earn more. I repeat, because Opposition Members do not like it, that, after people have paid all their taxes and had all the benefits of the tax cuts and all the burden of the tax increases, the overall effect is that they have £20 each week more in their pockets if they are a family.
  I do not know what interests the electors in North Durham, but I know that what interests people in Nottinghamshire and Rushcliffe is the overall effect of economic policy on their family's well-being. They are not impressed by crawling through the footnotes in the Red Book and trying to prove that what they know is a very prosperous country in which they are doing better is somehow being damaged by the Government.
  Mr. Salmond: It's the way the Chancellor tells them. Is it not reasonable to suppose that, even if by some enormous mischance the Government were to win the election, the Chancellor would not be long for that Dispatch Box? I watched the faces of those behind him. They put up with him now because they cannot afford not to. Is it not the case that, whether the Conservatives win or lose the election, the Chancellor will pay the price of his pro-European views? Is it not true that he will be cast away like an old pair of hush puppies?
  Mr. Clarke: I warn Labour Members: listen to the Scottish National party already predicting the first Conservative reshuffle after the election. We will take our chances on the reshuffle—it will not be in the hands of the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan, but, because of our improving economic position, nor will it be in the hands of the Labour party.
  From the exchange of statistics that has bewildered the British public for the past week, let me extract another incontrovertible fact—the fall in unemployment. I have heard the occasional Labour Member saying that somehow there is something wrong with the figures, but they tend to retreat when the realise that we are talking as much about the labour force survey figures as about the claimant count. The fact is that unemployment has fallen

  901
  to its lowest level for more than five and a half years. It has fallen by nearly 1 million since December 1992; it will shortly drop through the 2 million mark; and it will go on falling.
  We have had five or six days in which no Labour Member has commented on those unemployment figures. They have merely expressed mild queries about our assumption of continued falls in unemployment over the next two or three years. That is the reality of economic performance—it is what this Budget will help Britain to produce, and it is more relevant to the considerations of people in the real world outside.
  Consumer confidence is at its highest level for more than eight years. Is any Labour Member prepared to gainsay that? Is any Labour Member prepared to deny that it shows a feeling of growing confidence in improving family incomes? I have stated my expectations—I have said that consumer spending will rise by 3 per cent. this year and by 4.25 per cent. in 1997. I have heard no alternative—I have heard no one say that those figures are over-estimates. How can that be, if Labour Members are trying to persuade us that people out there are crushed by a burden of growing taxation that is making them £2,000 worse off than they were in 1992?
  That is not even the right allegation. It was the clichæ that the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Central got wrong. It is a peculiar conglomeration of apparently aggregate sums of extra tax paid over the four years since 1992, taking account of rising wages—as though that is some extra penalty—but somehow indexing the tax levels that we had in 1992.
  Business investment is increasing. It is expected to rise by 6 per cent. in 1996 and by more than 9 per cent. next year. In ways as yet undescribed, the Labour party occasionally hints that that might improve, if we had a Labour Government—but I have heard little to convince me of that.
  Let me lay to rest a few myths about Britain's investment performance, because it is our current investment performance that gives us hope for the continued growth with rising prosperity that we expect. Since 1979, whole-economy investment has grown faster here than in any other major European country. For the benefit of the hon. Member for Cardiff, West, over the past economic cycle it has grown three times as fast as it grew in the 1970s.
  As any business man knows, the quality of investment is just as important as the quantity. If we were only bothered about the quantity of investment, the economy of the former Soviet Union would now be one the triumphs of the world; but in Britain, not only do we have a greater quantity of investment than we used to have, but its quality is infinitely better.
  The OECD has said that Britain is the only major industrial country where business investment has become more productive since 1979. Our exports are rising strongly, and contributing to our best overall trading performance for nearly 10 years. That is what we should have heard about, and I do not believe that slogans and selective statistics are any answer to that.
  Mr. Malcolm Bruce: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Clarke: I cannot. I apologise for not giving way, because the hon. Gentleman usually makes a contribution
  902
  of greater substance than anything from the Labour Front Benchers. With his agreement, let me comment on that lack of substance.
  If there was any contribution to be made, it should have been on what Labour would do. The deputy Leader of the Opposition was critical of our borrowing performance, but gave no indication of what his party's intentions. If they think that they can do better, how would Labour's Front Benchers tackle the borrowing performance? How would they improve on our spending plans? I asked the right hon. Gentleman whether he would stick to the spending totals in the Red Book, or, if not, whether he would adjust them upwards or downwards. His answer was two minutes of incomprehensible gobbledegook—he had no reply. That is not surprising, because, as my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary has pointed out, the Labour party is committed to £30 billion-worth of extra spending. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Edinburgh, Central seems to deny that. We are trying to have a sensible debate with him.
  Our figures are all taken from statements by the Labour party, costed as best we can. If they are wrong, the hon. Gentleman can simply correct the figures and give us the real ones. We will act on the promises. When we add to the £30 billion the nods and winks that the Labour party has given to every lobby group, and when we consider its incredible claims on taxation, it is clear that it has no answer.
  This Budget will make Britain better off. The Labour party has no answer to it—and the Labour party is the major threat to continued prosperity for many years to come.
  Question put, That the amendment be made:—
  The House divided: Ayes 312, Noes 317.

  Division No. 18]

  [9.59 pm

  AYES

  Abbott, Ms Diane

  Bradley, Keith

  Adams, Mrs Irene

  Bray, Dr Jeremy

  Ainger, Nick

  Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E)

  Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)

  Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)

  Allen, Graham

  Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)

  Alton, David

  Burden, Richard

  Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)

  Byers, Stephen

  Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale)

  Caborn, Richard

  Armstrong, Ms Hilary

  Callaghan, Jim

  Ashdown, Paddy

  Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

  Ashton, Joseph

  Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

  Austin-Walker, John

  Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

  Banks, Tony (Newham NW)

  Campbell-Savours, D N

  Bames, Harry

  Canavan, Dennis

  Barron, Kevin

  Cann, Jamie

  Battle, John

  Carlile, Alex (Montgomery)

  Bayley, Hugh

  Chidgey, David

  Beckett, Mrs Margaret

  Chisholm, Malcolm

  Beggs, Roy

  Church, Ms Judith

  Beith, A J

  Clapham, Michael

  Bell, Stuart

  Clark, Dr David (S Shields)

  Benn, Tony

  Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)

  Bennett, Andrew F

  Clelland, David

  Benton, Joe

  Clwyd, Mrs Ann

  Bermingham, Gerald

  Coffey, Ms Ann

  Berry, Roger

  Cohen, Harry

  Betts, Clive

  Connarty, Michael

  Blair, Tony

  Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

  Blunkett, David

  Cook, Robin (Livingston)

  Boateng, Paul

  Corbyn, Jeremy

  Boyes, Roland

  Corston, Ms Jean

  903

  Cousins, Jim

  Hoyle, Doug

  Cox, Tom

  Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

  Cummings, John

  Hughes, Robert (Ab'd'n N)

  Cunliffe, Lawrence

  Hughes, Roy (Newport E)

  Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try SE)

  Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

  Cunningham, Dr John

  Hume, John

  Cunningham, Ms R (Perth Kinross)

  Hutton, John

  Dafis, Cynog

  Illsley, Eric

  Dalyell, Tam

  Ingram, Adam

  Darling, Alistair

  Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampst'd)

  Davidson, Ian

  Jackson, Mrs Helen (Hillsborough)

  Davies, Bryan (Oldham C)

  Jamieson, David

  Davies, Chris (Littleborough)

  Janner, Greville

  Davies, Denzil (Llanelli)

  Jenkins, Brian D (SE Staffs)

  Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)

  Johnston, Sir Russell

  Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H)

  Jones, Barry (Alyn & D'side)

  Denham, John

  Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Ynys Môn)

  Dewar, Donald

  Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)

  Dixon, Don

  Jones, Dr L (B'ham Selly Oak)

  Dobson, Frank

  Jones, Martyn (Clwyd SW)

  Donohoe, Brian H

  Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)

  Dowd, Jim

  Jowell, Ms Tessa

  Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth

  Kaufman, Gerald

  Eagle, Ms Angela

  Keen, Alan

  Eastham, Ken

  Kennedy, Charles (Ross C & S)

  Etherington, Bill

  Khabra, Piara S

  Evans, John (St Helens N)

  Kilfoyle, Peter

  Ewing, Mrs Margaret

  Kirkwood, Archy

  Faulds, Andrew

  Lester, Miss Joan (Eccles)

  Field, Frank (Birkenhead)

  Lewis, Terry

  Fisher, Mark

  Liddell, Mrs Helen

  Flynn, Paul

  Litherland, Robert

  Forsythe, Clifford (S Antrim)

  Livingstone, Ken

  Foster, Derek

  Lloyd, Tony (Stretf'd)

  Foster, Don (Bath)

  Llwyd, Elfyn

  Foulkes, George

  Loyden, Eddie

  Fraser, John

  Lynne, Ms Liz

  Fyfe, Mrs Maria

  McAllion, John

  Galbraith, Sam

  McAvoy, Thomas

  Galloway, George

  McCartney, Ian (Makerf'ld)

  Gapes, Mike

  McCartney, Robert (N Down)

  Garrett, John

  McCrea, Rev William

  George, Bruce

  Macdonald, Calum

  Gerrard, Neil

  McFall, John

  Gilbert, Dr John

  McGrady, Eddie

  Godman, Dr Norman A

  McKelvey, William

  Godsiff, Roger

  Mackinlay, Andrew

  Golding, Mrs Llin

  McLeish, Henry

  Gordon, Ms Mildred

  Maclennan, Robert

  Graham, Thomas

  McMaster, Gordon

  Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)

  McNamara, Kevin

  Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

  MacShane, Denis

  Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

  McWilliam, John

  Grocott, Bruce

  Madden, Max

  Gunnell, John

  Maddock, Mrs Diana

  Hain, Peter

  Mahon, Mrs Alice

  Hall, Mike

  Mallon, Seamus

  Hanson, David

  Mandelson, Peter

  Hardy, Peter

  Marek, Dr John

  Harman, Ms Harriet

  Marshall, David (Shettleston)

  Harvey, Nick

  Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

  Hattersley, Roy

  Martin, Michael J (Springbum)

  Henderson, Doug

  Martlew, Eric

  Hendron, Dr Joe

  Maxton, John

  Heppell, John

  Meacher, Michael

  Hill, Keith (Streatham)

  Meale, Alan

  Hinchliffe, David

  Michael, Alun

  Hodge, Ms Margaret

  Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)

  Hoey, Miss Kate

  Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute)

  Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld)

  Milbum, Alan

  Home Robertson, John

  Miller, Andrew

  Hood, Jimmy

  Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)

  Hoon, Geoffrey

  Moonie, Dr Lewis

  Howarth, Alan (Stratf'd-on-A)

  Morgan, Rhodri

  Howarth, George (Knowsley N)

  Morley, Elliot

  Howells, Dr Kim

  Morris, Alfred (Wy'nshawe)

  904

  Morris, Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley)

  Simpson, Alan

  Morris, John (Aberavon)

  Skinner, Dennis

  Mowlam, Ms Marjorie

  Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)

  Mudie, George

  Smith, Chris (Islington S)

  Mullin, Chris

  Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)

  Murphy, Paul

  Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)

  Nicholson, Miss Emma (W Devon)

  Snape, Peter

  Oakes, Gordon

  Soley, Clive

  O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)

  Spearing, Nigel

  O'Brien, William (Normanton)

  Spellar, John

  O'Hara, Edward

  Squire, Ms R (Dunfermline W)

  Olner, Bill

  Steinberg, Gerry

  O'Neill, Martin

  Stevenson, George

  Orme, Stanley

  Stott, Roger

  Paisley, Rev Ian

  Strang, Dr Gavin

  Parry, Robert

  Straw, Jack

  Pearson, Ian

  Sutcliffe, Gerry

  Pendry, Tom

  Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)

  Pickthall, Colin

  Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

  Pike, Peter L

  Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)

  Pope, Greg

  Thumham, Peter

  Powell, Sir Raymond (Ogmore)

  Timms, Stephen

  Prentice, Mrs B (Lewisham E)

  Tipping, Paddy

  Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

  Tounig, Don

  Prescott, John

  Trickett, Jon

  Primarolo, Ms Dawn

  Turner, Dennis

  Purchase, Ken

  Tyler, Paul

  Vaz, Keith

  Quin, Ms Joyce

  Walker, A Cecil (Belfast N)

  Radice, Giles

  Walker, Sir Harold

  Randall, Stuart

  Wallace, James

  Raynsford, Nick

  Walley, Ms Joan

  Reid, Dr John

  Wardell, Gareth (Gower)

  Rendel, David

  Wareing, Robert N

  Robertson, George (Hamilton)

  Watson, Mike

  Robinson, Geoffrey (Cov'try NW)

  Welsh, Andrew

  Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)

  Wicks, Malcolm

  Roche, Mrs Barbara

  Wigley, Dafydd

  Rogers, Allan

  Williams, Alan (Swansea W)

  Rooker, Jeff

  Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen)

  Rooney, Terry

  Wilson, Brian

  Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

  Winnick, David

  Ross, William (E Lond'y)

  Wise, Mrs Audrey

  Rowlands, Ted

  Worthington, Tony

  Ruddock, Ms Joan

  Wray, Jimmy

  Salmond, Alex

  Wright, Dr Tony

  Sedgemore, Brian

  Young, David (Bolton SE)

  Sheerman, Barry

  Sheldon, Robert

  Tellers for the Ayes:

  Shore, Peter

  Mrs. Jane Kennedy and

  Short, Ms Clare

  Mr. Eric Clarke.

  NOES

  Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)

  Biffen, John

  Aitken, Jonathan

  Body, Sir Richard

  Alexander, Richard

  Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

  Alison, Michael (Selby)

  Booth, Hartley

  Allason, Rupert (Torbay)

  Boswell, Tim

  Amess, David

  Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)

  Ancram, Michael

  Bottomley, Mrs Virginia

  Arbuthnot, James

  Bowden, Sir Andrew

  Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

  Bowis, John

  Ashby, David

  Boyson, Sir Rhodes

  Aspinwall, Jack

  Brandreth, Gyles

  Atkins, Robert

  Brazier, Julian

  Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)

  Bright, Sir Graham

  Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

  Brooke, Peter

  Baker, Kenneth (Mole V)

  Brown, Michael (Brigg Cl'thorpes)

  Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset)

  Browning, Mrs Angela

  Baldry, Tony

  Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)

  Banks, Matthew (Southport)

  Budgen, Nicholas

  Banks, Robert (Harrogate)

  Burns, Simon

  Batiste, Spencer

  Burt, Alistair

  Bellingham, Henry

  Butcher, John

  Bendall, Vivian

  Butler, Peter

  Beresford, Sir Paul

  Butterfill, John

  905

  Carlisle, John (Luton N)

  Hague, William

  Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Linc'n)

  Hamilton, Sir Archibald

  Carrington, Matthew

  Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

  Carttiss, Michael

  Hampson, Dr Keith

  Cash, William

  Hanley, Jeremy

  Channon, Paul

  Hannam, Sir John

  Chapman, Sir Sydney

  Hargreaves, Andrew

  Churchill, Mr

  Harris, David

  Clappison, James

  Haselhurst, Sir Alan

  Clark, Dr Michael (Rochf'd)

  Hawkins, Nick

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Hawksley, Warren

  Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

  Hayes, Jerry

  Coe, Sebastian

  Heald, Oliver

  Colvin, Michael

  Heath, Sir Edward

  Congdon, David

  Heathcoat-Amory, David

  Conway, Derek

  Hendry, Charles

  Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F)

  Heseltine, Michael

  Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

  Hicks, Sir Robert

  Cope, Sir John

  Higgins, Sir Terence

  Cormack, Sir Patrick

  Hill, Sir James (Southampton Test)

  Couchman, James

  Hogg, Douglas (Grantham)

  Cran, James

  Horam, John

  Currie, Mrs Edwina

  Hordem, Sir Peter

  Curry, David

  Howard, Michael

  Davies, Quentin (Stamf'd)

  Howell, David (Guildf'd)

  Davis, David (Boothferry)

  Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)

  Day, Stephen

  Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)

  Deva, Nirj Joseph

  Hunt, David (Wirral W)

  Devlin, Tim

  Hunt, Sir John (Ravensb'ne)

  Dicks, Terry

  Hunter, Andrew

  Dorrell, Stephen

  Hurd, Douglas

  Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

  Jack, Michael

  Dover, Den

  Jackson, Robert (Wantage)

  Duncan, Alan

  Jenkin, Bernard (Colchester N)

  Duncan Smith, Iain

  Jessel, Toby

  Dunn, Bob

  Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

  Durant, Sir Anthony

  Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

  Dykes, Hugh

  Jones, Robert B (W Herts)

  Eggar, Tim

  Jopling, Michael

  Elletson, Harold

  Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine

  Emery, Sir Peter

  Key, Robert

  Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'ld)

  King, Tom

  Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)

  Kirkhope, Timothy

  Evans, Nigel (Ribble V)

  Knapman, Roger

  Evans, Roger (Monmouth)

  Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)

  Evennett, David

  Knight, Greg (Derby N)

  Faber, David

  Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)

  Fabricant, Michael

  Knox, Sir David

  Fenner, Dame Peggy

  Kynoch, George

  Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)

  Lait, Mrs Jacqui

  Fishburn, Dudley

  Lamont, Norman

  Forman, Nigel

  Lang, Ian

  Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

  Lawrence, Sir Ivan

  Forth, Eric

  Legg, Barry

  Fowler, Sir Norman

  Leigh, Edward

  Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)

  Lennox—Boyd, Sir Mark

  Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)

  Lester, Sir Jim (Broxtowe)

  Freeman, Roger

  Lidington, David

  French, Douglas

  Lilley, Peter

  Fry, Sir Peter

  Lloyd, Sir Peter (Fareham)

  Gale, Roger

  Lord, Michael

  Gallie, Phil

  Luff, Peter

  Gardiner, Sir George

  Lyell, Sir Nicholas

  Garnier, Edward

  MacGregor, John

  Gill, Christopher

  MacKay, Andrew

  Gillan, Mrs Cheryl

  Maclean, David

  Goodlad, Alastair

  McLoughlin, Patrick

  Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

  McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick

  Gorman, Mrs Teresa

  Madel, Sir David

  Gorst, Sir John

  Maitland, Lady Olga

  Grant, Sir Anthony (SW Cambs)

  Major, John

  Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)

  Malone, Gerald

  Greenway, John (Ryedale)

  Mans, Keith

  Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)

  Marland, Paul

  Grylls, Sir Michael

  Marlow, Tony

  Gummer, John

  Marshall, John (Hendon S)

  906

  Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)

  Soames, Nicholas

  Martin, David (Portsmouth S)

  Speed, Sir Keith

  Mates, Michael

  Spencer, Sir Derek

  Mawhinney, Dr Brian

  Spicer, Sir Jim (W Dorset)

  Mayhew, Sir Patrick

  Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs)

  Mellor, David

  Spink, Dr Robert

  Merchant, Piers

  Spring, Richard

  Mills, Iain

  Sproat, Iain

  Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)

  Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)

  Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)

  Stanley, Sir John

  Moate, Sir Roger

  Steen, Anthony

  Monro, Sir Hector

  Stephen, Michael

  Montgomery, Sir Fergus

  Stern, Michael

  Moss, Malcolm

  Stewart, Allan

  Needham, Richard

  Streeter, Gary

  Nelson, Anthony

  Sumberg, David

  Neubert, Sir Michael

  Sweeney, Walter

  Newton, Tony

  Sykes, John

  Nicholls, Patrick

  Tapsell, Sir Peter

  Nicholson, David (Taunton)

  Taylor, Ian (Esher)

  Norris, Steve

  Taylor, John M (Solihull)

  Onslow, Sir Cranley

  Taylor, Sir Teddy

  Oppenheim, Phillip

  Temple—Morris, Peter

  Ottaway, Richard

  Thomason, Roy

  Page, Richard

  Thompson, Sir Donald (Calder V)

  Paice, James

  Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)

  Patnick, Sir Irvine

  Thornton, Sir Malcolm

  Patten, John

  Townend, John (Bridlington)

  Pattie, Sir Geoffrey

  Townsend, Cyril D (Bexl'yh'th)

  Pawsey, James

  Tracey, Richard

  Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth

  Tredinnick, David

  Pickles, Eric

  Trend, Michael

  Porter, David

  Trotter, Neville

  Portillo, Michael

  Twinn, Dr Ian

  Powell, William (Corby)

  Vaughan, Sir Gerard

  Rathbone, Tim

  Viggers, Peter

  Redwood, John

  Waldegrave, William

  Renton, Tim

  Walden, George

  Richards, Rod

  Walker, Bill (N Tayside)

  Riddick, Graham

  Waller, Gary

  Ward, John

  Rifkind, Malcolm

  Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)

  Robathan, Andrew

  Waterson, Nigel

  Roberts, Sir Wyn

  Watts, John

  Robertson, Raymond S (Ab'd'n S)

  Wells, Bowen

  Robinson, Mark (Somerton)

  Wheeler, Sir John

  Roe, Mrs Marion

  Whitney, Ray

  Rowe, Andrew

  Whittingdale, John

  Rumbold, Dame Angela

  Widdecombe, Miss Ann

  Ryder, Richard

  Wiggin, Sir Jerry

  Sackville, Tom

  Wilkinson, John

  Sainsbury, Sir Timothy

  Willetts, David

  Shaw, David (Dover)

  Wilshire, David

  Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)

  Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)

  Shephard, Mrs Gillian

  Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesf'ld)

  Shepherd, Sir Colin (Heref'd)

  Wolfson, Mark

  Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)

  Yeo, Tim

  Shersby, Sir Michael

  Young, Sir George

  Sims, Sir Roger

  Skeet Sir Trevor

  Tellers for the Noes:

  Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)

  Mr. Timothy Wood and

  Smith, Tim (Beaconsf'ld)

  Mr. Michael Bates.

  Question accordingly negatived.
  Main Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That it is expedient to amend the law with respect to the National Debt and the public revenue and to make further provision in connection with finance; but this Resolution does not extend to the making of any amendment with respect to value added tax so as to provide—

  (a) for zero-rating or exempting a supply, acquisition or importation;

  (b) for refunding an amount of tax;

  907

  (c) for varying any rate at which that tax is at any time chargeable; or

  (d) for any relief, other than a relief which—

  (i) so far as it is applicable to goods, applies to goods of every description, and

  (ii) so far as it is applicable to services, applies to services of every description.

  MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER then, pursuant to paragraph (3) of Standing Order No. 50 (Ways and Means motions), put forthwith the Questions necessary to dispose of the further motions.
  2. SPIRITS, AND WINES OF EQUIVALENT STRENGTH (RATES OF
  DUTY)
  Resolved,
  That—

  (1) In section 5 of the Alcoholic Liquor Duties Act 1979, for "£19.78" there shall be substituted "£18.99".

  (2) In Part II of the Table of rates of duty in Schedule 1 to that Act, for "19.78" there shall be substituted "18.99".

  (3) This Resolution shall have effect as from 6 o'clock in the evening of 26th November 1996.

  And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution should have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act 1968.

  3. WINE AND MADE-WINE (RATES OF DUTY ON LOWER STRENGTHS)
  Resolved,
  That—
  (1) For Part I of the Table of rates of duty in Schedule 1 to the Alcoholic Liquor Duties Act 1979 there shall be substituted—

  PART I
  WINE OR MADE-WINE OF A STRENGTH NOT EXCEEDING 22 PER CENT.

  Description of wine or made-wine

  Rates of duty per hectolitre

  £

  Wine or made-wine of a strength not exceeding 4 per cent.

  43.28

  Wine or made-wine of a strength exceeding 4 per cent. but not exceeding 5.5 per cent.

  59.51

  Wine or made-wine of a strength exceeding 5.5 per cent. but not exceeding 15 per cent. and not being sparkling

  140.44

  Sparkling wine or sparkling made-wine of a strength
  exceeding 5.5 per cent. but less than 8.5 per cent.

  195.63

  Sparkling wine or sparkling made-wine of a strength of 8.5 per cent. or of a strength exceeding 8.5 per cent. but not exceeding 15 per cent.

  200.64

  Wine or made-wine of a strength exceeding 15 per cent. but not exceeding 22 per cent.

  187.24

  (2) This Resolution shall come into force on 1st January 1997.
  And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution should have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act 1968.

  4. DUTY ON SPARKLING CIDER
  Resolved,
  That—
  (1) In subsection (IA) of section 62 of the Alcoholic Liquor Duties Act 1979—

  (a) in paragraph (a) after "exceeding 7.5 per cent." there shall be inserted "which is not sparkling cider"; and

  (b) immediately before the word "and" at the end of that paragraph there shall be inserted the following paragraph—

  "(aa) £36.45 per hectolitre in the case of sparkling cider of a strength exceeding 5.5 per cent.;".
  (2) After subsection (6) of that section there shall be inserted the following subsection—
  "(7) References in this section to making cider shall be construed as including references to producing sparkling cider by rendering cider sparkling; and references in this section to cider made in the United Kingdom, to makers of cider and to making cider for sale shall be construed accordingly."
  (3) After that section there shall be inserted the following section—
  "Meaning of "sparkling" etc. in section 62.
  62A.—(1) This section applies for the purposes of section 62 above.
  (2) Cider which is for the time being in a closed bottle is sparkling if, due to the presence of carbon dioxide, the pressure in the bottle, measured at a temperature of 20 degrees C, is not less than 3 bars in excess of atmospheric pressure.
  (3) Cider which is for the time being in a closed bottle is sparkling regardless of the pressure in the bottle if the bottle has a mushroom-shaped stopper (whether solid or hollow) held in place by a tie or fastening.
  (4) Cider which is not for the time being in a closed container is sparkling if it has characteristics similar to those of cider which has been removed from a closed bottle and which, before removal, fell within subsection (2) above.
  (5) Cider shall be regarded as having been rendered sparkling if, as a result of aeration, fermentation or any other process, it either—

  (a) falls within subsection (2) above; or

  (b) takes on characteristics similar to those of cider which has been removed from a closed bottle and which, before removal, fell within subsection (2) above.

  (6) Cider which has not previously been rendered sparkling by virtue of subsection (5) above shall be regarded as having been rendered sparkling if it is transferred into a closed bottle which has a mushroom-shaped stopper (whether solid or hollow) held in place by a tie or fastening.
  (7) Cider which is in a closed bottle and has not previously been rendered sparkling by virtue of subsection (5) or (6) above shall be regarded as having been rendered sparkling if the stopper of its bottle is exchanged for a stopper of a kind mentioned in subsection (6) above."
  (4) In section 64 of that Act, after subsection (1) there shall be inserted the following subsection—
  "(1A) In subsection (1) above the references to a maker of cider include references to any person who is taken for the purposes of section 62 above to be a maker of cider."
  (5)This Resolution shall come into force on 1st January 1997.
  (6)Any order or regulations made under section 62 or 64 of the Alcoholic Liquor Duties Act 1979 before 1st January 1997 shall have effect on and after that date (but only if and for so long as the order or regulations would be in force apart from this paragraph) as if the amendments made to that Act by this Resolution had been made before the making of the order or regulations.
  And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution should have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act 1968.

  5. CIDER LABELLED AS STRONG CIDER
  Resolved,
  That—
  (1) After section 62A of the Alcoholic Liquor Duties Act 1979 there shall be inserted the following section—
  "Cider labelled as strong cider.
  62B.—(1) For the purposes of this Act, any liquor which would apart from this section be standard cider and which—

  (a) is in an up-labelled container, or

  (b) has, at any time after 31st December 1996 when it was in the United Kingdom, been in an up-labelled container,

  shall be deemed to be strong cider, and not standard cider.
  (2) Accordingly, references in this Act to making cider include references to—

  (a) putting standard cider in an up-labelled container; or

  (b) causing a container in which there is standard cider to be up-labelled.

  (3) Where, by virtue of this section, any duty is charged under section 62 above on any cider, a rebate shall be allowed in respect of the amount of any duty charged on that cider under that section otherwise than by virtue of this section.
  (4) For the purposes of this section—

  (a) "standard cider" means cider which is not sparkling and is of a strength not exceeding 7.5 per cent.; and

  (b) "strong cider" means cider which is not sparkling and is of a strength exceeding 7.5 per cent.

  (5) For the purposes of this section a container is up-labelled if there is anything on—

  (a) the container itself,

  (b) a label or leaflet attached to or used with the container, or

  (c) any packaging used for or in association with the container,

  which states or tends to suggest that the strength of any liquor in that container falls within the strong cider strength range.
  (6) For the purposes of subsection (5) above, a strength falls within the strong cider strength range if it exceeds 7.5 per cent. but is less than 8.5 per cent."
  (2) This Resolution shall come into force on 1st January 1997.
  And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution should have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act 1968.

  6. CIDER LABELLED AS MADE-WINE
  Resolved,
  That—
  (1) After section 55A of the Alcoholic Liquor Duties Act 1979 there shall be inserted the following section—
  "Cider labelled as made-wine.
  55B.—(1) For the purposes of this Act, any liquor which would apart from this section be cider and which—

  (a) in an up-labelled container, or

  (b) has, at any time after 31st December 1996 when it was in the United Kingdom, been in an up-labelled container,

  shall be deemed to be made-wine, and not cider.
  (2) Accordingly, references in this Act to producing made-wine include references to—

  (a) putting cider in an up-labelled container; or

  (b) causing a container in which there is cider to be up-labelled.

  (3) For the purposes of this Act, where any liquor is deemed by this section to be made-wine, it shall be deemed—

  (a) if it is in an up-labelled container, to he made-wine of the strength that the labelling for the container states or tends to suggest; and

  (b) if it is no longer in an up-labelled container, to be made-wine of the strength stated or suggested by the labelling for the up-labelled container in which it was contained when it was first deemed by this section to be made-wine.

  (4) Subsection (3)(a) above has effect subject to any provision that may be made by regulations under section 2(3) above.
  (5) Where, by virtue of this section, any duty is charged under section 55 above on any liquor, a rebate shall be allowed in respect of the amount of any duty charged on that liquor under section 62 below.
  (6) For the purposes of this section a container is up-labelled if the labelling for the container states or tends to suggest that the strength of any liquor in that container is or exceeds 8.5 per cent.
  (7) In this section references to the labelling for any container are references to anything on—

  (a) the container itself,

  (b) a label or leaflet attached to or used with the container, or

  (c) any packaging used for or in association with the container."

  (2) In section 1 of that Act—

  (a) in subsection (5), after "subsection (10)" there shall be inserted "and section 55B(1)"; and

  (b) in subsection (6), after "means" there shall be inserted ", subject to section 55B(1) below,".

  (3) This Resolution shall come into force on 1st January 1997.
  And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution should have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act 1968.

  7. HYDROCARBON OIL (RATES OF DUTY AND REBATE)
  Motion made, and Question put,
  That—

  (1) In section 6(1) of the Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1979, for "£0.3912" and "0.3430" there shall be substituted "£0.4168" and "£0.3686", respectively.

  (2) In section 8(3) of that Act, for "£0.2817" there shall he substituted "£0.2113".

  (3) In section 11(1) of that Act, for "£0.0181" and "£0.0233" there shall be substituted "£0.0194" and "£0.0250", respectively.

  (4) In section 14(1) of that Act, for "£0.0181" there shall he substituted "£0.0194".

  (5) This Resolution shall have effect as from 6 o'clock in the evening of 26th November 1996.

  And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution should have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act 1968.
  The House divided: Ayes 316, Noes 43.

  Division No. 19]

  [10.19 pm

  AYES

  Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)

  Deva, Nirj Joseph

  Aitken, Jonathan

  Devlin, Tim

  Alexander, Richard

  Dicks, Terry

  Alison, Michael (Selby)

  Dorrell, Stephen

  Allason, Rupert (Torbay)

  Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

  Amess, David

  Dover, Den

  Ancram, Michael

  Duncan, Alan

  Arbuthnot, James

  Duncan Smith, Iain

  Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

  Dunn, Bob

  Ashby, David

  Durant, Sir Anthony

  Aspinwall, Jack

  Dykes, Hugh

  Atkins, Robert

  Eggar, Tim

  Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)

  Elletson, Harold

  Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

  Emery, Sir Peter

  Baker, Kenneth (Mole V)

  Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'ld)

  Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset)

  Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)

  Baldry, Tony

  Evans, Nigel (Ribble V)

  Banks, Matthew (Southport)

  Evans, Roger (Monmouth)

  Banks, Robert (Harrogate)

  Evennett, David

  Batiste, Spencer

  Faber, David

  Bellingham, Henry

  Fabricant, Michael

  Bendall, Vivian

  Fenner, Dame Peggy

  Beresford, Sir Paul

  Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)

  Biffen, John

  Fishburn, Dudley

  Body, Sir Richard

  Forman, Nigel

  Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

  Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

  Booth, Hartley

  Forth, Eric

  Boswell, Tim

  Fowler, Sir Norman

  Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)

  Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)

  Bottomley, Mrs Virginia

  Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)

  Bowden, Sir Andrew

  Freeman, Roger

  Bowis, John

  French, Douglas

  Boyson, Sir Rhodes

  Fry, Sir Peter

  Brandreth, Gyles

  Gale, Roger

  Brazier, Julian

  Gallie, Phil

  Bright, Sir Graham

  Gardiner, Sir George

  Brooke, Peter

  Garnier, Edward

  Brown, Michael (Brigg Cl'thorpes)

  Gill, Christopher

  Browning, Mrs Angela

  Gillan, Mrs Cheryl

  Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)

  Goodlad, Alastair

  Budgen, Nicholas

  Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

  Burns, Simon

  Gorman, Mrs Teresa

  Burt, Alistair

  Gorst, Sir John

  Butcher, John

  Grant Sir Anthony (SW Cambs)

  Butler, Peter

  Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)

  Butterfill, John

  Greenway, John (Ryedale)

  Carlisle, John (Luton N)

  Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)

  Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Linc'n)

  Grylls, Sir Michael

  Carrington, Matthew

  Gummer, John

  Carttiss, Michael

  Hague, William

  Cash, William

  Hamilton, Sir Archibald

  Channon, Paul

  Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

  Chapman, Sir Sydney

  Hampson, Dr Keith

  Churchill, Mr

  Hanley, Jeremy

  Clappison, James

  Hannam, Sir John

  Clark, Dr Michael (Rochf'd)

  Hargreaves, Andrew

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Harris, David

  Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

  Haselhurst, Sir Alan

  Coe, Sebastian

  Hawkins, Nick

  Colvin, Michael

  Hawksley, Warren

  Congdon, David

  Hayes, Jerry

  Conway, Derek

  Heald, Oliver

  Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F)

  Heath, Sir Edward

  Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

  Heathcoat-Amory, David

  Cope, Sir John

  Hendry, Charles

  Cormack, Sir Patrick

  Heseltine, Michael

  Couchman, James

  Higgins, Sir Terence

  Cran, James

  Hill, Sir James (Southampton Test)

  Currie, Mrs Edwina

  Hogg, Douglas (Grantham)

  Curry, David

  Horam, John

  Davies, Quentin (Stamf'd)

  Hordem, Sir Peter

  Davis, David (Boothferry)

  Howard, Michael

  Day, Stephen

  Howell, David (Guildf'd)

  912

  Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)

  Paice, James

  Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)

  Patnick, Sir Irvine

  Hunt, David (Wirral W)

  Patten, John

  Hunt, Sir John (Ravensb'ne)

  Pattie, Sir Geoffrey

  Hunter, Andrew

  Pawsey, James

  Hurd, Douglas

  Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth

  Jack, Michael

  Pickles, Eric

  Jackson, Robert (Wantage)

  Porter, David

  Jenkin, Bernard (Colchester N)

  Portillo, Michael

  Jessel, Toby

  Powell, William (Corby)

  Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

  Rathbone, Tim

  Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

  Redwood, John

  Jones, Robert B (W Herts)

  Renton, Tim

  Jopling, Michael

  Richards, Rod

  Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine

  Riddick, Graham

  Key, Robert

  Rifkind, Malcolm

  King, Tom

  Robathan, Andrew

  Kirkhope, Timothy

  Roberts, Sir Wyn

  Knapman, Roger

  Robertson, Raymond S (Ab'd'n S)

  Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)

  Robinson, Mark (Somerton)

  Knight, Greg (Derby N)

  Roe, Mrs Marion

  Knight Dame Jill (Edgbaston)

  Rowe, Andrew

  Knox, Sir David

  Rumbold, Dame Angela

  Kynoch, George

  Ryder, Richard

  Lait, Mrs Jacqui

  Sackville, Tom

  Lamont, Norman

  Sainsbury, Sir Timothy

  Lang, Ian

  Shaw, David (Dover)

  Lawrence, Sir Ivan

  Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)

  Legg, Barry

  Shephard, Mrs Gillian

  Leigh, Edward

  Shepherd, Sir Colin (Heref'd)

  Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark

  Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)

  Lester, Sir Jim (Broxtowe)

  Shersby, Sir Michael

  Lidington, David

  Sims, Sir Roger

  Lilley, Peter

  Skeet, Sir Trevor

  Lloyd, Sir Peter (Fareham)

  Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)

  Lord, Michael

  Smith, Tim (Beaconsf'ld)

  Luff, Peter

  Soames, Nicholas

  Lyell, Sir Nicholas

  Speed, Sir Keith

  MacGregor, John

  Spencer, Sir Derek

  MacKay, Andrew

  Spicer, Sir Jim (W Dorset)

  Maclean, David

  Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs)

  McLoughlin, Patrick

  Spink, Dr Robert

  McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick

  Spring, Richard

  Madel, Sir David

  Sproat, Iain

  Maitland, Lady Olga

  Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)

  Major, John

  Stanley, Sir John

  Malone, Gerald

  Steen, Anthony

  Mans, Keith

  Stephen, Michael

  Marland, Paul

  Stern, Michael

  Marlow, Tony

  Stewart, Allan

  Marshall, John (Hendon S)

  Streeter, Gary

  Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)

  Sumberg, David

  Martin, David (Portsmouth S)

  Sweeney, Walter

  Mates, Michael

  Sykes, John

  Mawhinney, Dr Brian

  Tapsell, Sir Peter

  Mayhew, Sir Patrick

  Taylor, Ian (Esher)

  Mellor, David

  Taylor, John M (Solihull)

  Merchant, Piers

  Taylor, Sir Teddy

  Mills, Iain

  Temple-Morris, Peter

  Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)

  Thomason, Roy

  Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)

  Thompson, Sir Donald (Calder V)

  Moate, Sir Roger

  Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)

  Monro, Sir Hector

  Thomton, Sir Malcolm

  Montgomery, Sir Fergus

  Townend, John (Bridlington)

  Moss, Malcolm

  Townsend, Cyril D (Bexl'yh'th)

  Needham, Richard

  Tracey, Richard

  Nelson, Anthony

  Tredinnick, David

  Neubert, Sir Michael

  Trend, Michael

  Newton, Tony

  Trotter, Neville

  Nicholls, Patrick

  Twinn, Dr Ian

  Nicholson, David (Taunton)

  Vaughan, Sir Gerard

  Norris, Steve

  Viggers, Peter

  Onslow, Sir Cranley

  Waldegrave, William

  Oppenheim, Phillip

  Walden, George

  Ottaway, Richard

  Walker, Bill (N Tayside)

  Page, Richard

  Waller, Gary

  913

  Ward, John

  Willetts, David

  Wandle, Charles (Bexhill)

  Wilshire, David

  Waterson, Nigel

  Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)

  Watts, John

  Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesf'ld)

  Wells, Bowen

  Wolfson, Mark

  Wheeler, Sir John

  Yeo, Tim

  Whitney, Ray

  Young, Sir George

  Whittingdale, John

  Widdecombe, Miss Ann

  Tellers for the Ayes:

  Wiggin, Sir Jerry

  Mr. Timothy Wood and

  Wilkinson, John

  Mr. Michael Bates.

  NOES

  Alton, David

  McCartney, Robert (N Down)

  Ashdown, Paddy

  McCrea, Rev William

  Beggs, Roy

  McGrady, Eddie

  Beith, A J

  Maclennan, Robert

  Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)

  Maddock, Mrs Diana

  Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

  Mallon, Seamus

  Carlile, Alex (Montgomery)

  Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute)

  Chidgey, David

  Nicholson, Miss Emma (W Devon)

  Cunningham, Ms R (Perth Kinross)

  Paisley, Rev Ian

  Dafis, Cynog

  Rendel, David

  Davies, Chris (Littleborough)

  Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)

  Forsythe, Clifford (S Antrim)

  Ross, William (E Lond'y)

  Foster Don (Bath)

  Salmond, Alex

  Harvey, Nick

  Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)

  Hendron Dr Joe

  Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

  Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

  Thumham, Peter

  Johnston, Sir Russell

  Tyler, Paul

  Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Ynys Môn)

  Walker, A Cecil (Belfast N)

  Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)

  Wallace, James

  Kennedy, Charles (Ross C & S)

  Wingley, Dafydd

  Kirkwood, Archy

  Tellers for the Noes:

  Llwyd Elfyn

  Mrs. Margaret Ewing and

  Lynne, Ms Liz

  Mr. Andrew Welsh.

  Question accordingly agreed to.

  8. HYDROCARBON OIL (MIXING OF HEAVY OIL)
  Resolved,
  That provision may be made about the mixing of different descriptions of heavy oil.

  9. TOBACCO PRODUCTS (RATES OF DUTY)
  Resolved,
  That—
  (1) For the Table of rates of duty in Schedule 1 to the Tobacco Products Duty Act 1979 there shall be substituted—

  "TABLE

  1. Cigarettes

  An amount equal to 21 per cent. of the retail price plus £65.97 per thousand cigarettes.

  2. Cigars

  £98.02 per kilogram.

  3. Hand-rolling tobacco

  £87.74 per kilogram.

  4. Other smoking tobacco and chewing tobacco

  £43.10 per kilogram."

  (2) This Resolution shall have effect as from 6 o'clock in the evening of 26th November 1996.
  And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution should have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act 1968.

  10. AIR PASSENGER DUTY
  Motion made, and Question put,
  That provision may be made about the rates of air passenger duty under section 30 of the Finance Act 1994.
  The House divided: Ayes 317, Noes 43.

  Division No. 20]

  [10.34 pm

  AYES

  Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)

  Deva, Nirj Joseph

  Aitken, Jonathan

  Devlin, Tim

  Alexander, Richard

  Dicks, Terry

  Alison, Michael (Selby)

  Dorrell, Stephen

  Allason, Rupert (Torbay)

  Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

  Amess, David

  Dover, Den

  Ancram, Michael

  Duncan, Alan

  Arbuthnot, James

  Duncan Smith, Iain

  Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

  Dunn, Bob

  Ashby, David

  Durant, Sir Anthony

  Aspinwall, Jack

  Dykes, Hugh

  Atkins, Robert

  Eggar, Tim

  Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)

  Elletson, Harold

  Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

  Emery, Sir Peter

  Baker, Kenneth (Mole V)

  Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'ld)

  Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset)

  Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)

  Baldry, Tony

  Evans, Nigel (Ribble V)

  Banks, Matthew (Southport)

  Evans, Roger (Monmouth)

  Banks, Robert (Harrogate)

  Evennett, David

  Batiste, Spencer

  Faber, David

  Bellingham, Henry

  Fabricant, Michael

  Bendall, Vivian

  Fenner, Dame Peggy

  Beresford, Sir Paul

  Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)

  Biffen, John

  Fishburn, Dudley

  Body, Sir Richard

  Forman, Nigel

  Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

  Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

  Booth, Hartley

  Forth, Eric

  Boswell, Tim

  Fowler, Sir Norman

  Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)

  Fox, Dr Liarn (Woodspring)

  Bottomley, Mrs Virginia

  Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)

  Bowden, Sir Andrew

  Freeman, Roger

  Bowis, John

  French, Douglas

  Boyson, Sir Rhodes

  Fry, Sir Peter

  Booth, Hartley

  Forth, Eric

  Boswell, Tim

  Fowler, Sir Norman

  Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)

  Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)

  Bottomley, Mrs Virginia

  Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)

  Bowden, Sir Andrew

  Freeman, Roger

  Bowis, John

  French, Douglas

  Boyson, Sir Rhodes

  Fry, Sir Peter

  Brandreth, Gyles

  Gale, Roger

  Brazier, Julian

  Gallie, Phil

  Bright, Sir Graham

  Gardiner, Sir George

  Brooke, Peter

  Garnier, Edward

  Brown, Michael (Brigg Cl'thorpes)

  Gill, Christopher

  Browning, Mrs Angela

  Gillan, Mrs Cheryl

  Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)

  Goodlad, Alastair

  Budgen, Nicholas

  Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

  Burns, Simon

  Gorman, Mrs Teresa

  Burt, Alistair

  Gorst, Sir John

  Butcher, John

  Grant, Sir Anthony (SW Cambs)

  Butler, Peter

  Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)

  Butterfill, John

  Greenway, John (Ryedale)

  Carlisle, John (Luton N)

  Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)

  Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Linc'n)

  Grylls, Sir Michael

  Carrington, Matthew

  Gummer, John

  Carttiss, Michael

  Hague, William

  Cash, William

  Hamilton, Sir Archibald

  Channon, Paul

  Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

  Chapman, Sir Sydney

  Hampson, Dr Keith

  Churchill, Mr

  Hanley, Jeremy

  Clappison, James

  Hannam, Sir John

  Clark, Dr Michael (Rochf'd)

  Hargreaves, Andrew

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Harris, David

  Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

  Haselhurst, Sir Alan

  Coe, Sebastian

  Hawkins, Nick

  Colvin, Michael

  Hawksley, Warren

  Congdon, David

  Hayes, Jerry

  Conway, Derek

  Heald, Oliver

  Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F)

  Heath, Sir Edward

  Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

  Heathcoat-Amory, David

  Cope, Sir John

  Hendry, Charles

  Cormack, Sir Patrick

  Heseltine, Michael

  Couchman, James

  Hicks, Sir Robert

  Cran, James

  Higgins, Sir Terence

  Currie, Mrs Edwina

  Hill, Sir James (Southampton Test)

  Curry, David

  Hogg, Douglas (Grantham)

  Davies, Quentin (Stamf'd)

  Horam, John

  Davis, David (Boothferry)

  Hordem, Sir Peter

  Day, Stephen

  Howard, Michael

  915

  Howell, David (Guildf'd)

  Page, Richard

  Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)

  Pace, James

  Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)

  Patnick, Sir Irvine

  Hunt, David (Wirral W)

  Patten, John

  Hunt, Sir John (Ravensb'ne)

  Pattie, Sir Geoffrey

  Hunter, Andrew

  Pawsey, James

  Hurd, Douglas

  Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth

  Jack, Michael

  Pickles, Eric

  Jackson, Robert (Wantage)

  Porter, David

  Jenkin, Bernard (Colchester N)

  Portillo, Michael

  Jessel, Toby

  Powell, William (Corby)

  Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

  Rathbone, Tim

  Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

  Redwood, John

  Jones, Robert B (W Herts)

  Renton, Tim

  Jopling, Michael

  Richards, Rod

  Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine

  Riddick, Graham

  Key, Robert

  Rifkind, Malcolm

  King, Tom

  Robathan, Andrew

  Kirkhope, Timothy

  Roberts, Sir Wyn

  Knapman, Roger

  Robertson, Raymond S (Ab'd'n S)

  Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)

  Robinson, Mark (Somerton)

  Knight Greg (Derby N)

  Roe, Mrs Marion

  Knight Dame Jill (Edgbaston)

  Rowe, Andrew

  Knox, Sir David

  Rumbold, Dame Angela

  Kynoch, George

  Ryder, Richard

  Lait, Mrs Jacqui

  Sackville, Tom

  Lamont, Norman

  Sainsbury, Sir Timothy

  Lang, Ian

  Shaw, David (Dover)

  Lawrence, Sir Ivan

  Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)

  Legg, Barry

  Shephard, Mrs Gillian

  Leigh, Edward

  Shepherd, Sir Colin (Heref'd)

  Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark

  Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)

  Lester, Sir Jim (Broxtowe)

  Shersby, Sir Michael

  Lidington, David

  Sims, Sir Roger

  Lilley, Peter

  Skeet, Sir Trevor

  Lloyd, Sir Peter (Fareham)

  Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)

  Lord, Michael

  Smith, Tim (Beaconsf'ld)

  Luff, Peter

  Soames, Nicholas

  Lyell, Sir Nicholas

  Speed, Sir Keith

  MacGregor, John

  Spencer, Sir Derek

  MacKay, Andrew

  Spicer, Sir Jim (W Dorset)

  Maclean, David

  Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs)

  McLoughlin, Patrick

  Spink, Dr Robert

  McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick

  Spring, Richard

  Madel, Sir David

  Sproat, Iain

  Maitland, Lady Olga

  Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)

  Major, John

  Stanley, Sir John

  Malone, Gerald

  Steen, Anthony

  Mans, Keith

  Stephen, Michael

  Marland, Paul

  Stern, Michael

  Marlow, Tony

  Stewart, Allan

  Marshall, John (Hendon S)

  Streeter, Gary

  Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)

  Sumberg, David

  Martin, David (Portsmouth S)

  Sweeney, Walter

  Mates, Michael

  Sykes, John

  Mawhinney, Dr Brian

  Tapsell, Sir Peter

  Mayhew, Sir Patrick

  Taylor, Ian (Esher)

  Mellor, David

  Taylor, John M (Solihull)

  Merchant, Piers

  Taylor, Sir Teddy

  Mills, Iain

  Temple-Morris, Peter

  Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)

  Thomason, Roy

  Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)

  Thompson, Sir Donald (Calder V)

  Moate, Sir Roger

  Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)

  Monro, Sir Hector

  Thornton, Sir Malcolm

  Montgomery, Sir Fergus

  Townend, John (Bridlington)

  Moss, Malcolm

  Townsend, Cyril D (Bexl'yh'th)

  Needham, Richard

  Tracey, Richard

  Nelson, Anthony

  Tredinnick, David

  Neubert, Sir Michael

  Trend, Michael

  Newton, Tony

  Trotter, Neville

  Nicholls, Patrick

  Twinn, Dr Ian

  Nicholson, David (Taunton)

  Vaughan, Sir Gerard

  Norris, Steve

  Viggers, Peter

  Onslow, Sir Cranley

  Waldegrave, William

  Oppenheim, Phillip

  Walden, George

  Ottaway, Richard

  Walker, Bill (N Tayside)

  916

  Waller, Gary

  Wilkinson, John

  Ward, John

  Willetts, David

  Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)

  Wilshire, David

  Waterson, Nigel

  Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)

  Watts, John

  Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesf'ld)

  Wells, Bowen

  Wolfson, Mark

  Yeo, Tim

  Wheeler, Sir John

  Young, Sir George

  Whitney, Ray

  Whittingdale, John

  Tellers for the Ayes:

  Widdecombe, Miss Ann

  Mr. Timothy Wood and

  Wiggin, Sir Jerry

  Mr. Michael Bates.

  NOES

  Alton, David

  McCrea, Rev William

  Ashdown, Paddy

  Macdonald, Calum

  Beggs, Roy

  McGrady, Eddie

  Beith, A J

  Maclennan, Robert

  Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)

  Maddock, Mrs Diana

  Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

  Mallon, Seamus

  Carlile, Alex (Montgomery)

  Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute)

  Chidgey, David

  Nicholson, Miss Emma (W Devon)

  Cunningham, Ms R (Perth Kinross)

  Paisley, Rev Ian

  Davies, Chris (Littleborough)

  Rendel, David

  Ewing, Mrs Margaret

  Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)

  Forsythe, Clifford (S Antrim)

  Ross, William (E Lond'y)

  Foster, Don (Bath)

  Salmond, Alex

  Harvey, Nick

  Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast E)

  Hendron, Dr Joe

  Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

  Hume, John

  Thumham, Peter

  Tyler, Paul

  Johnston, Sir Russell

  Walker, A Cecil (Belfast N)

  Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Ynys Môn)

  Wallace, James

  Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)

  Wigley, Dafydd

  Kennedy, Charles (Ross C & S)

  Llwyd, Elfyn

  Tellers for the Noes:

  Lynne, Ms Liz

  Mr. Archy Kirk wood and

  McCartney, Robert (N Down)

  Mr. Andrew Welsh.

  Question accordingly agreed to.

  11. GAMING DUTY
  Resolved,
  That provision may be made for charging a duty of excise on premises where gaming takes place.

  12. VEHICLE EXCISE DUTY (INCREASE IN GENERAL RATE)
  Resolved,
  That—

  (1) In Schedule 1 to the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994, in paragraph 1(2), for "£140" there shall be substituted "£145".

  (2) This Resolution applies in relation to licences taken out after 26th November 1996.

  And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution should have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act 1968.

  13. INSURANCE PREMIUM TAX
  Resolved,
  That provision may be made about insurance premium tax.

  14. VALUE ADDED TAX (AGGREGATION OF BUSINESSES)
  Resolved,
  That provision may be made about the giving of directions under paragraph 2 of Schedule 1 to the Value Added Tax Act 1994 for two or more persons to be treated as a single taxable person.

  15. VALUE ADDED TAX (GOODS DONATED TO CHARITY)
  Resolved,
  That—
  (1) In Group 15 of Schedule 8 to the Value Added Tax Act 1994, for Note (1) there shall be substituted the following Note—
  "(1) Item I shall apply only if—

  (a) the supply is a sale of goods donated to that charity or taxable person;

  (b) the sale takes place as a result of the goods having been made available to the general public for purchase (whether in a shop or elsewhere); and

  (c) the sale does not take place as a result of any arrangements (whether legally binding or not) which related to the goods and were entered into by each of the parties to the sale before the goods were made available to the general public."

  (2) This Resolution has effect in relation to supplies made on or after 26th November 1996.
  And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution should have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act 1968.

  16. VALUE ADDED TAX (CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS)
  Resolved,
  That—
  (1) In Group 15 of Schedule 8 to the Value Added Tax Act 1994, after Note (4) there shall be inserted the following Notes—
  "(4A) Subject to Note (5B), a charitable institution shall not be regarded as providing care or medical or surgical treatment for handicapped persons unless—

  (a) it provides care or medical or surgical treatment in a relevant establishment; and

  (b) the majority of the persons who receive care or medical or surgical treatment in that establishment are handicapped persons.

  (4B) "Relevant establishment" means—

  (a) a day-centre, other than a day-centre which exists primarily as a place for activities that are social or recreational or both; or

  (b) an institution which is—

  (i) approved, licensed or registered in accordance with the provisions of any enactment or Northern Ireland legislation; or
  (ii) exempted by or under the provisions of any enactment or Northern Ireland legislation from any requirement to be approved, licensed or registered;
  and in paragraph (b) above the references to the provisions of any enactment or Northern Ireland legislation are references only to provisions which, so far as relating to England, Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland, have the same effect in every locality within that part of the United Kingdom."
  (2) After Note (5) to that Group there shall be inserted the following Notes—
  "(5A) Subject to Note (5B), items 4 to 7 do not apply where the eligible body falls within Note (4)(f) unless the relevant goods are or are to be used in a relevant establishment in which that body provides care or medical or surgical treatment to persons the majority of whom are handicapped.
  (5B) Nothing in Note (4A) or (5A) shall prevent a supply from falling within items 4 to 7 where—

  (a) the eligible body provides medical care to handicapped persons in their own homes;

  (b) the relevant goods fall within Note (3)(a) or are parts or accessories for use in or with goods described in Note (3)(a); and

  (c) those goods are or are to be used in or in connection with the provision of that care."

  (3) This Resolution has effect in relation to supplies made on or after 26th November 1996.
  918
  And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution should have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act 1968.

  17. VALUE ADDED TAX (EXEMPTION OF INSURANCE SERVICES)
  Resolved,
  That provision may be made amending the provisions of Schedule 9 to the Value Added Tax Act 1994 by virtue of which supplies involving the provision of insurance or reinsurance, and related supplies, are exempt.

  18. VALUE ADDED TAX (BUILDINGS AND LAND ETC.)
  Resolved,
  That provision (including provision having retrospective effect) may be made about—

  (a) the construction for the purposes of Schedules
  8 and 9 to the Value Added Tax Act 1994, or
  corresponding provisions of the Value Added
  Tax Act 1983, of references to the grant of any
  interest, right, licence or facilities; and

  (b) the circumstances in which supplies are made taxable by an election under paragraph 2 of Schedule 10 to the Value Added Tax Act 1994, or under the corresponding provisions of the Value Added Tax Act 1983.

  19. VALUE ADDED TAX (SUPPLIES TO PERSONS NOT FULLY TAXABLE)
  Resolved,
  That paragraphs 2(3A) and 3(8A) of Schedule 10 to the Value Added Tax Act 1994 shall not have effect in relation to any supply made after 26th November 1996.
  And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution should have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act 1968.

  20. VALUE ADDED TAX (BAD DEBT RELIEF)
  Resolved,
  That provision may be made repealing section 36(4)(b) of, and paragraph 9(1) of Schedule 13 to, the Value Added Tax Act 1994.

  21. VALUE ADDED TAX (INPUT TAX AND BAD DEBTS)
  Resolved,
  That—
  (1) In section 36 of the Value Added Tax Act 1994, after subsection (4) there shall be inserted the following subsection—"
  (4A) Where—

  (a) a person is entitled under subsection (2) above to be refunded an amount of VAT, and

  (b) that VAT has at any time been included in the input tax of another person,

  that other person shall be taken, as from the time when the claim for the refund is made, not to have been entitled to any credit for input tax in respect of the VAT that has to be refunded on that claim."
  (2) This Resolution has effect in relation to any entitlement under section 36 of that Act of 1994 to a refund of VAT charged on a supply made after 26th November 1996.
  And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution should have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act 1968.

  22. VALUE ADDED TAX (DESCRIPTION OF GROUP MEMBERS)
  Resolved,
  That—
  (1) In section 43 of the Value Added Tax Act 1994, after subsection (1) there shall be inserted the following subsections—
  "(1AA) Where—

  919

  (a) it is material, for the purposes of any provision made by or under this Act ("the relevant provision"), whether the person by or to whom a supply is made, or the person by whom goods are acquired or imported, is a person of a particular description,

  (b) paragraph (b) or (c) of subsection (1) above applies to any supply, acquisition or importation, and

  (c) there is a difference that would be material for the purposes of the relevant provision between—

  (i) the description applicable to the representative member, and
  (ii) the description applicable to the body which (apart from this section) would be regarded for the purposes of this Act as making the supply, acquisition or importation or, as the case may be, as being the person to whom the supply is made,
  the relevant provision shall have effect in relation to that supply, acquisition or importation as if the only description applicable to the representative member were the description in fact applicable to that body.
  (1AB) Subsection (1AA) above does not apply to the extent that what is material for the purposes of the relevant provision is whether a person is a taxable person."
  (2) This Resolution has effect in relation to any supply made after 26th November 1996 and in relation to any acquisition or importation taking place after that date.
  And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution should have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act 1968.

  23. VALUE ADDED TAX (DEEMED SELF-SUPPLIES WITHIN GROUPS)
  Resolved,
  That provision may be made for allowing an order made by virtue of section 43(2) of the Value Added Tax Act 1994 to require the representative member of a group to be treated as a person of such description as may be determined under the order.

  24. VALUE ADDED TAX (GROUP SUPPLIES USING AN OVERSEAS MEMBER)
  Resolved,
  That—
  (1) In section 43 of the Value Added Tax Act 1994, after subsection (2) there shall be inserted the following subsections—
  "(2A) A supply made by a member of a group ("the supplier") to another member of the group ("the UK member") shall not be disregarded under subsection (1)(a) above if—

  (a) it would (if there were no group) be a supply of services falling within Schedule 5 to a person belonging in the United Kingdom;

  (b) those services are not within any of the descriptions specified in Schedule 9;

  (c) the supplier has been supplied (whether or not by a person belonging in the United Kingdom) with services falling within any of paragraphs 1 to 8 of Schedule 5;

  (d) the supplier belonged outside the United Kingdom when it was supplied with the services mentioned in paragraph (c) above; and

  (e) the services so mentioned have been used by the supplier for making the supply to the UK member.

  (2B) Subject to subsection (2C) below, where a supply is excluded by virtue of subsection (2A) above from the supplies that are disregarded in pursuance of subsection (1)(a) above, all the same consequences shall follow under this Act as if that supply—

  (a) were a taxable supply in the United Kingdom by the representative member to itself, and

  (b) without prejudice to that, were made by the representative member in the course or furtherance of its business.

  (2C) A supply which is deemed by virtue of subsection (2B) above to be a supply by the representative member to itself—

  (a) shall not be taken into account as a supply made by the representative member when determining any allowance of input tax under section 26(1) in the case of the representative member;

  (b) shall be deemed for the purposes of paragraph 1 of Schedule 6 to be a supply in the case of which the person making the supply and the person supplied are connected within the meaning of section 839 of the Taxes Act (connected persons); and

  (c) subject to paragraph (b) above, shall be taken to be a supply the value and time of which are determined as if it were a supply of services which is treated by virtue of section 8 as made by the person by whom the services are received.

  (2D) For the purposes of subsection (2A) above where—

  (a) there has been a supply of the assets of a business of a person ("the transferor") to a person to whom the whole or any part of that business was transferred as a going concern ("the transferee"),

  (b) that supply is either—

  (i) a supply falling to be treated, in accordance with an order under section 5(3), as being neither a supply of goods nor a supply of services, or
  (ii) a supply that would have fallen to be so treated if it had taken place in the United Kingdom, and
  (c) the transferor was supplied with services falling within paragraphs 1 to 8 of Schedule 5 at a time before the transfer when the transferor belonged outside the United Kingdom,
  those services, so far as they are used by the transferee for making any supply falling within that Schedule, shall be deemed to have been supplied to the transferee at a time when the transferee belonged outside the United Kingdom.
  (2E) Where, in the case of a supply of assets falling within paragraphs (a) and (b) of subsection (2D) above—

  (a) the transferor himself acquired any of the assets in question by way of a previous supply of assets falling within those paragraphs, and

  (b) there are services falling within paragraphs 1 to 8 of Schedule 5 which, if used by the transferor for making supplies falling within that Schedule, would he deemed by virtue of that subsection to have been supplied to the transferor at a time when he belonged outside the United Kingdom,

  that subsection shall have effect, notwithstanding that the services have not been so used by the transferor, as if the transferor were a person to whom those services were supplied and as if he were a person belonging outside the United Kingdom at the time of their deemed supply to him; and this subsection shall apply accordingly through any number of successive supplies of assets falling within paragraphs (a) and (b) of that subsection."
  (2) This Resolution has effect in relation to supplies made on or after 26th November 1996.
  And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution should have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act 1968.

  25. VALUE ADDED TAX (SERVICES SUBJECT TO THE REVERSE CHARGE)
  Resolved,
  That provision may be made authorising an order under section 8(5) of the Value Added Tax Act 1994 to make provision in connection with any addition to or variation of Schedule 5 to that Act.

  26. VALUE ADDED TAX (INTEREST)
  Resolved,
  That—
  (1) Section 78 of the Value Added Tax Act 1994 shall have effect, and be deemed always to have had effect, with the insertion of the following subsection after subsection (1)—
  "(1A) In subsection (1) above—

  (a) references to an amount which the Commissioners are liable in consequence of any matter to pay or repay to any person are references, where a claim for the payment or repayment has to be made, to only so much of that amount as is the subject of a claim that the Commissioners are required to satisfy or have satisfied; and

  (b) the amounts referred to in paragraph (d) do not include any amount payable under this section."

  (2)That section shall have effect in relation to any claim made on or after 18th July 1996, and shall be deemed always to have had effect in relation to such a claim, with the substitution of the following subsection for subsection (11)—
  "(11) A claim under this section shall not be made more than three years after the end of the applicable period to which it relates."
  (3) That section shall have effect, and be deemed always to have had effect, with the substitution of the following paragraph for paragraph (a) of subsection (12)—
  "(a) references to the authorisation by the Commissioners of the payment of any amount include references to the discharge by way of set-off (whether under section 81(3) or otherwise) of the Commissioners' liability to pay that amount; and".
  (4) After that section there shall be inserted the following section—
  "Assessment for interest overpayments.
  78A.—(1) Where—

  (a) any amount has been paid to any person by way of interest under section 78, but

  (b) that person was not entitled to that amount under that section,

  the Commissioners may, to the best of their judgement, assess the amount so paid to which that person was not entitled and notify it to him.
  (2) An assessment made under subsection (1) above shall not be made more than two years after the time when evidence of facts sufficient in the opinion of the Commissioners to justify the making of the assessment comes to the knowledge of the Commissioners.
  (3) Where an amount has been assessed and notified to any person under subsection (1) above, that amount shall be deemed (subject to the provisions of this Act as to appeals) to be an amount of VAT due from him and may be recovered accordingly.
  (4) Subsection (3) above does not have effect if or to the extent that the assessment in question has been withdrawn or reduced.
  (5) An assessment under subsection (1) above shall be a recovery assessment for the purposes of section 84(3A).
  (6) Sections 74 and 77(6) apply in relation to assessments under subsection (1) above as they apply in relation to assessments under section 73 but as if the reference in subsection (1) of section 74 to the reckonable date were a reference to the date on which the assessment is notified.
  (7) Where by virtue of subsection (6) above any person is liable to interest under section 74—

  (a) section 76 shall have effect in relation to that liability with the omission of subsections (2) to (6); and

  (b) section 77, except subsection (6), shall not apply to an assessment of the amount due by way of interest;

  922
  and (without prejudice to the power to make assessments for interest for later periods) the interest to which any assessment made under section 76 by virtue of paragraph (a) above may relate shall be confined to interest for a period of no more than two years ending with the time when the assessment to interest is made.
  (8) For the purposes of this section notification to a personal representative, trustee in bankruptcy, interim or permanent trustee, receiver, liquidator or person otherwise acting in a representative capacity in relation to another shall be treated as notification to the person in relation to whom he so acts."
  (5) In section 83 of the Value Added Tax Act 1994, after paragraph (s) there shall be inserted the following paragraph—
  "(sa) an assessment under section 78A(1) or the amount of such an assessment;".
  (6) In section 84 of that Act, after subsection (3) there shall be inserted the following subsection—
  "(3A) An appeal against an assessment which is a recovery assessment for the purposes of this subsection, or against the amount of such an assessment, shall not be entertained unless—

  (a) the amount notified by the assessment has been paid or deposited with the Commissioners; or

  (b) on being satisfied that the appellant would otherwise suffer hardship, the Commissioners agree, or the tribunal decides, that the appeal should be entertained notwithstanding that that amount has not been so paid or deposited."

  (7) Paragraph (4) above comes into force on 4th December 1996 in relation to amounts paid by way of interest at any time on or after 18th July 1996.
  (8) Paragraphs (5) and (6) above come into force on 4th December 1996 in relation to assessments made on or after that date.
  (9) Amendments corresponding to those made by paragraphs (1) and (3) above shall be deemed to have had effect, for the purposes of the cases to which the enactments applied, in relation to the enactments directly or indirectly re-enacted in section 78 of the Value Added Tax Act 1994.
  And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution should have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act 1968.

  27. VALUE ADDED TAX (UNJUST ENRICHMENT)
  Resolved,
  That provision may be made—

  (a) modifying the provisions of section 80 of the Value Added Tax Act 1994 under which it is a defence for the Commissioners of Customs and Excise, on a claim for repayment, that the repayment would unjustly enrich the claimant; and

  (b) making provision about the cases where arrangements for reimbursement may be taken into account in determining whether a person would be unjustly enriched by a repayment under that section.

  28. VALUE ADDED TAX (TIME LIMITS FOR REPAYMENT LIABILITIES)
  Resolved,
  That—
  (1) For subsections (4) and (5) of section 80 of the Value Added Tax Act 1994 there shall be substituted the following subsection—
  "(4) The Commissioners shall not be liable, on a claim made under this section, to repay any amount paid to them more than three years before the making of the claim."
  (2) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4) below, paragraph (1) above shall be deemed to have come into force on 18th July 1996 as a provision applying, for the purposes of the making of any repayment on or after that date, to all claims under section 80 of the Value Added Tax Act 1994, including claims made before that date and claims relating to payments made before that date.
  (3) Paragraph (4) below applies as respects the making of any repayment on or after 18th July 1996 on a claim under section 80 of the Value Added Tax Act 1994 if—

  (a) legal proceedings for questioning any decision ("the disputed decision") of the Commissioners, or of an officer of the Commissioners, were brought by any person at any time before that date,

  (b) a determination has been or is made in those proceedings that the disputed decision was wrong or should be set aside,

  (c) the claim is one made by that person at a time after the proceedings were brought (whether before or after the making of the determination), and

  (d) the claim relates to—

  (i) an amount paid by that person to the Commissioners on the basis of the disputed decision, or

  (ii) an amount paid by that person to the Commissioners before the relevant date (including an amount paid before the making of the disputed decision) on grounds which, in all material respects, correspond to those on which that decision was made.

  (4) Where this paragraph applies in the case of any claim—

  (a) subsection (4) of section 80 of the Value Added Tax Act 1994 (as inserted by this Resolution) shall not apply, and shall be taken never to have applied, in relation to so much of that claim as relates to an amount falling within paragraph (3)(d)(i) or (ii) above, but

  (b) the Commissioners shall not be liable on that claim, and shall be taken never to have been liable on that claim, to repay any amount so falling which was paid to them more than three years before the proceedings mentioned in paragraph (3)(a) above were brought.

  (5) In paragraph (3)(d) above—

  (a) the reference to the relevant date is a reference to whichever is the earlier of 18th July 1996 and the date of the making of the determination in question; and

  (b) the reference to an amount paid on the basis of a decision, or on any grounds, includes an amount so paid on terms (however expressed) which questioned the correctness of the decision or, as the case may be, of those grounds.

  (6) After the subsection (4) inserted in section 80 of the Value Added Tax Act 1994 by this Resolution there shall be inserted the following subsections—
  "(4A) Where—

  (a) any amount has been paid, at any time on or after 18th July 1996, to any person by way of a repayment under this section, and

  (b) the amount paid exceeded the Commissioners' repayment liability to that person at that time,

  the Commissioners may, to the best of their judgement, assess the excess paid to that person and notify it to him.
  (4B) For the purposes of subsection (4A) above the Commissioners' repayment liability to a person at any time is—

  (a) in a case where any provision affecting the amount which they were liable to repay to that person at that time is subsequently deemed to have been in force at that time, the amount which the Commissioners are to be treated, in accordance with that provision, as having been liable at that time to repay to that person; and

  (b) in any other case, the amount which they were liable at that time to repay to that person.

  (4C) Subsections (2) to (8) of section 78A apply in the case of an assessment under subsection (4A) above as they apply in the case of an assessment under section 78A(1)."
  (7) In section 83 of that Act, in paragraph (t), after "80" there shall be inserted ", an assessment under subsection (4A) of that section or the amount of such an assessment".
  (8) Nothing contained in—

  (a) any regulations under section 25(1) of, or paragraph 2 of Schedule 11 to, that Act relating to the correction of errors or the making of adjustments, or

  (b) any requirement imposed under any such regulations,

  shall be taken, in relation to any time on or after 18th July 1996, to have conferred an entitlement on any person to receive, by way of repayment, any amount to which he would not have had any entitlement on a claim under section 80 of that Act.
  (9) Paragraphs (6) to (8) above come into force on 4th December 1996.
  (10) In this Resolution—
  "the Commissioners" means the Commissioners of Customs and Excise; and
  "legal proceedings" means any proceedings before a court or tribunal.
  (11) Without prejudice to the generality of paragraph 1(2) of Schedule 13 to the Value Added Tax Act 1994, the references in this Resolution, and in subsection (4) of section 80 of that Act (as inserted by this Resolution), to a claim under that section include references to a claim first made under section 24 of the Finance Act 1989.
  And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution should have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act 1968.

  29. VALUE ADDED TAX (SET-OFF OF CREDITS AND DEBITS)
  Resolved,
  That—
  (1) In section 81 of the Value Added Tax Act 1994, after subsection (3) there shall be inserted the following subsection—
  "(3A) Where—

  (a) the Commissioners are liable to pay or repay any amount to any person under this Act,

  (b) that amount falls to be paid or repaid in consequence of a mistake previously made about whether or to what extent amounts were payable under this Act to or by that person, and

  (c) by reason of that mistake a liability of that person to pay a sum by way of VAT, penalty, interest or surcharge was not assessed, was not enforced or was not satisfied,

  any limitation on the time within which the Commissioners are entitled to take steps for recovering that sum shall be disregarded in determining whether that sum is required by subsection (3) above to be set against the amount mentioned in paragraph (a) above."
  (2) Paragraph (1) above shall be deemed to have come into force on 18th July 1996 as a provision applying for determining the amount of any payment or repayment by the Commissioners on or after that date, including a payment or repayment in respect of a liability arising before that date.
  And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution should have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act 1968.

  30. VALUE ADDED TAX (TRANSITIONAL PROVISION FORSET-OFFS)
  Resolved,
  That—
  (1) Where—

  (a) at any time before 4th December 1996, any person ("the taxpayer") became liable to pay any sum ("the relevant sum") to the Commissioners by way of VAT, penalty, interest or surcharge,

  (b) at any time on or after 18th July 1996 and before 4th December 1996 an amount was set against the whole or any part of the relevant sum,

  925

  (c) the amount set against that sum was an amount which is treated under the Resolution of the House (value added tax (time limits for repayment liabilities)) of 3rd December 1996 as not having been due from the Commissioners at the time when it was set against that sum, and

  (d) as a consequence, the taxpayer's liability to pay the whole or a part of the relevant sum falls to be treated as not having been discharged in accordance with section 81(3) of the 1994 Act,

  the Commissioners may, to the best of their judgement, assess the amount of the continuing liability of the taxpayer and notify it to him.
  (2) In paragraph (I) above the reference to the continuing liability of the taxpayer is a reference to so much of the liability to pay the relevant sum as—

  (a) would have been discharged if the amount mentioned in paragraph (1)(b) above had been required to be set against the relevant sum in accordance with section 81(3) of the 1994 Act, but

  (b) falls, by virtue of the Resolution of the House (value added tax (time limits for repayment liabilities)) of 3rd December 1996, to be treated as not having been discharged in accordance with section 81(3) of that Act.

  (3) The taxpayer's only liabilities under the 1994 Act in respect of his failure, on or after the time mentioned in paragraph (1)(b) above, to pay an amount assessable under this Resolution shall be—

  (a) his liability to be assessed for that amount under this Resolution; and

  (b) liabilities arising under the following provisions of this Resolution.

  (4) Subsections (2) to (8) of section 78A of the 1994 Act apply in the case of an assessment under paragraph (1) above as they apply in the case of an assessment under section 78A(l) of that Act.
  (5) The 1994 Act shall have effect as if the matters specified in section 83 of that Act (matters subject to appeal) included an assessment under this Resolution and the amount of such an assessment.
  (6) Nothing contained in—

  (a) any regulations under section 25(1) of, or paragraph 2 of Schedule 11 to, the 1994 Act relating to the correction of errors or the making of adjustments, or

  (b) any requirement imposed under any such regulations,

  shall be taken, in relation to any time on or after 18th July 1996, to have conferred on any person any entitlement, otherwise than in accordance with section 81(3) of that Act, to set any amount, as an amount due from the Commissioners, against any sum which that person was liable to pay to the Commissioners by way of VAT, penalty, interest or surcharge.
  (7) In this Resolution—
  "the 1994 Act" means the Value Added Tax Act 1994; and
  "the Commissioners" means the Commissioners of Customs and Excise.
  (8) This Resolution shall come into force on 4th December 1996.
  And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution should have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act 1968.

  31. REPAYMENTS BY THE COMMISSIONERS OF CUSTOMS AND EXCISE
  Resolved,
  That provision may be made about the liability of the Commissioners of Customs and Excise to make repayments of amounts paid to them by way of excise duty or insurance premium tax or landfill tax and about their powers to recover amounts repaid by them.

  32. EXCISE DUTY ASSESSMENTS
  Resolved,
  That provision may be made about amounts which may be assessed as excise duty.

  33. INCOME TAX (CHARGE AND RATES FOR 1997–98)
  Motion made, and Question put,
  That—
  (1) Income tax shall be charged for the year 1997–98, and for that year—

  (a) the lower rate shall be 20 per cent.;

  (b) the basic rate shall be 23 per cent.; and

  (c) the higher rate shall be 40 per cent.

  (2) For the year 1997–98 section 1(2) of the Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1988 shall apply as if the amount specified in paragraph (aa) were £4,100; and, accordingly, section 1(4) of that Act shall apply for the year 1997–98 in relation only to the amount specified in section 1(2)(b) of that Act.
  (3) In section 686(1A) of the Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1988, for the words "for any year of assessment shall be the rate equal to the sum of the basic rate and the additional rate in force for that year" there shall be substituted ", in relation to any year of assessment for which income tax is charged, shall be 34 per cent. or such other rate as Parliament may determine".
  (4) Paragraph (3) above has effect in relation to the year 1997–98 and subsequent years of assessment.
  And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution should have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act 1968.
  The House divided: Ayes 316, Noes 35.

  Division No. 21]

  [10.48 pm

  Division No. 21]

  [10.48 pm

  AYES

  Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)

  Booth, Hartley

  Aitken, Jonathan

  Boswell, Tim

  Alexander, Richard

  Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)

  Alison, Michael (Selby)

  Bottomley, Mrs Virginia

  Allason, Rupert (Torbay)

  Bowden, Sir Andrew

  Amess, David

  Bowis, John

  Ancram, Michael

  Boyson, Sir Rhodes

  Arbuthnot, James

  Brandreth, Gyles

  Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

  Brazier, Julian

  Ashby, David

  Bright Sir Graham

  Aspinwall, Jack

  Brooke, Peter

  Atkins, Robert

  Brown, Michael (Brigg Cl'thorpes)

  Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)

  Browning, Mrs Angela

  Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

  Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)

  Baker, Kenneth (Mole V)

  Budgen, Nicholas

  Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset)

  Burns, Simon

  Baldry, Tony

  Burt, Alistair

  Banks, Matthew (Southport)

  Butcher, John

  Banks, Robert (Harrogate)

  Butler, Peter

  Batiste, Spencer

  Butterfill, John

  Bellingham, Henry

  Carlisle, John (Luton N)

  Bendall, Vivian

  Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Linc'n)

  Beresford, Sir Paul

  Carrington, Matthew

  Biffen, John

  Carttiss, Michael

  Body, Sir Richard

  Cash, William

  Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

  Channon, Paul

  927

  Chapman, Sir Sydney

  Hargreaves, Andrew

  Churchill, Mr

  Harris, David

  Clappison, James

  Haselhurst, Sir Alan

  Clark, Dr Michael (Rochf'd)

  Hawkins, Nick

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Hawksley, Warren

  Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

  Hayes, Jerry

  Coe, Sebastian

  Heald, Oliver

  Colvin, Michael

  Heath, Sir Edward

  Congdon, David

  Heathcoat-Amory, David

  Conway, Derek

  Hendry, Charles

  Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F)

  Heseltine, Michael

  Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

  Hicks, Sir Robert

  Cope, Sir John

  Higgins, Sir Terence

  Cormack, Sir Patrick

  Hill, Sir James (Southampton Test)

  Couchman, James

  Hogg, Douglas (Grantham)

  Cran, James

  Horam, John

  Currie, Mrs Edwina

  Hordern, Sir Peter

  Curry, David

  Howard, Michael

  Davies, Quentin (Stamf'd)

  Howell, David (Guildf'd)

  Davis, David (Boothferry)

  Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)

  Day, Stephen

  Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)

  Deva, Nirj Joseph

  Hunt, David (Wirral W)

  Devlin, Tim

  Hunt, Sir John (Ravensb'ne)

  Dicks, Terry

  Hunter, Andrew

  Dorrell, Stephen

  Hurd, Douglas

  Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

  Jack, Michael

  Dover, Den

  Jackson, Robert (Wantage)

  Duncan, Alan

  Jenkin, Bernard (Colchester N)

  Duncan Smith, Iain

  Jessel, Toby

  Dunn, Bob

  Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

  Durant, Sir Anthony

  Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

  Dykes, Hugh

  Jones, Robert B (W Herts)

  Eggar, Tim

  Jopling, Michael

  Elletson, Harold

  Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine

  Emery, Sir Peter

  Key, Robert

  Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'ld)

  King, Tom

  Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)

  Kirkhope, Timothy

  Evans, Nigel (Ribble V)

  Knapman, Roger

  Evans, Roger (Monmouth)

  Knight Mrs Angela (Erewash)

  Evennett, David

  Knight Greg (Derby N)

  Faber, David

  Knight Dame Jill (Edgbaston)

  Fabricant, Michael

  Knox, Sir David

  Fenner, Dame Peggy

  Kynoch, George

  Reid, Barry (Isle of Wight)

  Lait, Mrs Jacqui

  Fishburn, Dudley

  Lamont, Norman

  Forman, Nigel

  Lang, Ian

  Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

  Lawrence, Sir Ivan

  Forth, Eric

  Legg, Barry

  Fowler, Sir Norman

  Leigh, Edward

  Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)

  Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark

  Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)

  Lester, Sir Jim (Broxtowe)

  Freeman, Roger

  Lidington, David

  French, Douglas

  Lilley, Peter

  Fry, Sir Peter

  Lloyd, Sir Peter (Fareham)

  Gale, Roger

  Lord, Michael

  Gallie, Phil

  Luff, Peter

  Gardiner, Sir George

  Lyell, Sir Nicholas

  Garnier, Edward

  MacGregor, John

  Gill, Christopher

  MacKay, Andrew

  Gillan, Mrs Cheryl

  Maclean, David

  Goodlad, Alastair

  McLoughlin, Patrick

  Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

  McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick

  Gorman, Mrs Teresa

  Madel, Sir David

  Gorst, Sir John

  Maitland, Lady Olga

  Grant, Sir Anthony (SW Carmbs)

  Major, John

  Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)

  Malone, Gerald

  Greenway, John (Ryedale)

  Mans, Keith

  Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)

  Marland, Paul

  Grylls, Sir Michael

  Marlow, Tony

  Gummer, John

  Marshall, John (Hendon S)

  Hague, William

  Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)

  Hamilton, Sir Archibald

  Martin, David (Portsmouth S)

  Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

  Mates, Michael

  Hampson, Dr Keith

  Mawhinney, Dr Brian

  Hanley, Jeremy

  Mayhew, Sir Patrick

  Hannam, Sir John

  Mellor, David

  928

  Merchant Piers

  Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs)

  Mills, Iain

  Spink, Dr Robert

  Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)

  Spring, Richard

  Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)

  Sproat Iain

  Moate, Sir Roger

  Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)

  Monro, Sir Hector

  Stanley, Sir John

  Montgomery, Sir Fergus

  Steen, Anthony

  Moss, Malcolm

  Stephen, Michael

  Needham, Richard

  Stem, Michael

  Nelson, Anthony

  Stewart, Allan

  Neubert, Sir Michael

  Streeter, Gary

  Newton, Tony

  Sumberg, David

  Nicholls, Patrick

  Sweeney, Walter

  Nicholson, David (Taunton)

  Sykes, John

  Norris, Steve

  Tapsell, Sir Peter

  Onslow, Sir Cranley

  Taylor, Ian (Esher)

  Oppenheim, Phillip

  Taylor, John M (Solihull)

  Ottaway, Richard

  Taylor, Sir Teddy

  Page, Richard

  Temple-Morris, Peter

  Paice, James

  Thomason, Roy

  Patnick, Sir Irvine

  Thompson, Sr Donald (Calder V)

  Patten, John

  Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)

  Pattie, Sir Geoffrey

  Thomton, Sr Malcolm

  Pawsey, James

  Townend, John (Bridlington)

  Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth

  Townsend, Cyril D (Bexl'yh'th)

  Pickles, Eric

  Tracey, Richard

  Porter, David

  Tredinnick, David

  Portillo, Michael

  Trend, Michael

  Powell, William (Corby)

  Trotter, Neville

  Rathbone, Tim

  Twinn, Dr Ian

  Redwood, John

  Vaughan, Sir Gerard

  Richards, Rod

  Viggers, Peter

  Riddick, Graham

  Waldegrave, William

  Rifkind, Malcolm

  Walden, George

  Robathan, Andrew

  Walker, Bill (N Tayside)

  Roberts, Sir Wyn

  Waller, Gary

  Robertson, Raymond S (Ab'dn S)

  Ward, John

  Robinson, Mark (Somerton)

  Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)

  Roe, Mrs Marion

  Waterson, Nigel

  Rowe, Andrew

  Watts, John

  Rumbold, Dame Angela

  Wells, Bowen

  Ryder, Richard

  Wheeler, Sir John

  Sackville, Tom

  Whitney, Ray

  Sainsbury, Sir Timothy

  Whittingdale, John

  Shaw, David (Dover)

  Widdecombe, Miss Ann

  Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)

  Wiggin, Sir Jerry

  Shephard, Mrs Gillian

  Wilkinson, John

  Shepherd, Sr Colin (Heref'd)

  Willetts, David

  Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)

  Wilshire, David

  Shersby, Sir Michael

  Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)

  Sims, Sir Roger

  Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesf'ld)

  Skeet, Sir Trevor

  Wolfson, Mark

  Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)

  Yeo, Tim

  Smith, Tim (Beaconsf'ld)

  Young, Sir George

  Soames, Nicholas

  Speed, Sir Keith

  Tellers for the Ayes:

  Spencer, Sir Derek

  Mr. Timothy Wood and

  Spicer, Sir Jim (W Dorset)

  Mr. Michael Bates.

  NOES

  Alton, David

  Foster, Don (Bath)

  Ashdown, Paddy

  Harvey, Nick

  Beith, A J

  Johnston, Sir Russell

  Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)

  Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Ynys Môn)

  Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

  Jones, Dr L (B'ham Selly Oak)

  Carlile, Alex (Montgomery)

  Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)

  Chidgey, David

  Kennedy, Charles (Ross C & S)

  Corbyn, Jeremy

  Llwyd, Elfyn

  Cunningham, Ms R (Perth Kinross)

  Lynne, Ms Liz

  Dafis, Cynog

  Maclennan, Robert

  Davies, Chris (Littleborough)

  Madden, Max

  Ewing, Mrs Margaret

  Maddock, Mrs Diana

  929

  Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute)

  Tyler, Paul

  Nicholson, Miss Emma (W Devon)

  Wallace, James

  Rendel, David

  Welsh, Andrew

  Salmond, Alex

  Wigley, Dafydd

  Skinner, Dennis

  Tellers for the Noes:

  Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

  Mr. Simon Hughes and

  Thumham, Peter

  Mr. Archy Kirkwood.

  Question accordingly agreed to.

  34. INCOME TAX (MODIFICATION OF INDEXED ALLOWANCES)
  Resolved,
  That—

  For the year 1997–98 the amounts specified in the provisions mentioned in paragraph (2) below shall be taken to be as set out in that paragraph; and, accordingly, section 257C(1) of the Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1988, so far as it relates to the amounts so specified, shall not apply for the year 1997–98.

  (2) In section 257 of that Act—

  (a) the amount in subsection (1) shall be £4,045;

  (b) the amount in subsection (2) shall be £5,220; and

  (c) the amount in subsection (3) shall be £5,400.

  And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution should have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act 1968.

  35. BLIND PERSON'S ALLOWANCE
  Resolved,
  That—

  (1) In section 265(1) of the Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1988, for "£1,250" there shall be substituted "£1,280".

  (2) This Resolution shall apply for the year 1997–98.

  And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution should have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act 1968.

  36. RELIEF FOR INTEREST (LIMIT FOR 1997–98)
  Resolved,
  That, for the year 1997–98, the qualifying maximum defined in section 367(5) of the Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1988 shall be £30,000.
  And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution should have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act 1968.

  37. CORPORATION TAX (CHARGE AND RATE FOR FINANCIAL YEAR 1997)
  Resolved,
  That corporation tax shall be charged for the financial year 1997 at the rate of 33 per cent.

  38. CORPORATION TAX (SMALL COMPANIES: 1997)
  Resolved,
  That, for the financial year 1997—

  (a) the small companies' rate shall be 23 per cent.; and

  (b) the fraction mentioned in section 13(2) of the Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1988 shall be one fortieth.

  39. WAYLEAVES FOR ELECTRICITY CABLES, TELEPHONE LINES, ETC.
  Resolved,
  That section 120 of the Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1988 shall be amended as follows.
  (1) In subsection (1)—

  (a) at the beginning there shall be inserted "Subject to subsection (1A) below,"; and

  (b) the words from "and, subject to" onwards shall be omitted.

  (2) After subsection (1) there shall be inserted the following subsection—
  "(1A) If—

  (a) the profits and gains arising to any person for any chargeable period include both rent in respect of any such easement as is mentioned in subsection (1) above and amounts which are charged to tax under Schedule A, and

  (b) some or all of the land to which the easement relates is included in the land by reference to which the amounts charged under Schedule A arise,

  then, for that period, that rent shall be charged to tax under Schedule A, instead of being charged under Schedule D."
  (3) Subsections (2) to (4) and, in subsection (5), paragraph (c) and the word "and" immediately preceding it shall cease to have effect.
  (4) This Resolution has effect in relation to payments made on or after 6th April 1997.
  And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution should have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act 1968.

  40. PROFIT-RELATED PAY
  Resolved,
  That provision may be made for phasing out the relief under Chapter III of Part V of the Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1988.

  41. SPECIAL TREATMENT FOR CERTAIN COMPANY DISTRIBUTIONS
  Resolved,
  That provision (including provision having retrospective effect) may be made for distributions of a company to be treated—

  (a) as if they were foreign income dividends; and

  (b) in cases where they are made to trustees, as if they were income to which section 686 of the Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1988 applies.

  42. DISTRIBUTIONS TO DEALERS
  Resolved,
  That provision may be made amending section 95 of the Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1988.

  43. DISTRIBUTIONS OF EXEMPT FUNDS
  Resolved,
  That provision (including provision having retrospective effect) may be made amending section 236 of the Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1988.

  44. FOREIGN INCOME DIVIDENDS (UNAUTHORISED UNIT TRUSTS)
  Resolved,
  That provision may be made amending section 246D of the Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1988.

  45. TAX AVOIDANCE (MEANING OF "TAX ADVANTAGE")
  Resolved,
  That provision (including provision having retrospective effect) may be made amending section 709 of the Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1988.

  46. STOCK LENDING AND MANUFACTURED PAYMENTS
  Resolved,
  That provision may be made for the purposes of income tax, corporation tax and capital gains tax about stock lending arrangements and manufactured payments.

  47. LOAN RELATIONSHIPS (TRANSITIONAL PROVISIONS ETC.)
  Resolved,
  That provision (including provision having retrospective effect) may be made amending section 90 of, and Schedule 15 to, the Finance Act 1996.

  48. PAYMENTS UNDER LIFE INSURANCE POLICIES
  Resolved,
  That provision (including provision having retrospective effect) may be made about the treatment for the purposes of enactments relating to income tax and corporation tax of sums paid or payable under life insurance policies.

  49. TRANSFER OF ASSETS ABROAD
  Resolved,
  That provision may be made amending section 739 of the Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1988.

  50. LEASING OF ASSETS (FINANCE LEASES AND LOANS)
  Resolved,
  That provision may be made for the purposes of income tax and corporation tax in relation to arrangements which—

  (a) are or have been entered into by companies or other persons, and

  (b) are of such a kind as, in the case of companies incorporated in any part of the United Kingdom, falls for the purposes of accounts of such companies to be treated in accordance with normal accountancy practice as finance leases or loans.

  51. CAPITAL ALLOWANCES
  Resolved,
  That provision (including provision having retrospective effect) may be made amending the Capital Allowances Act 1990.

  52. EXPENDITURE ON MINERAL EXPLORATION AND ACCESS
  Resolved,
  That provision may be made about the deduction of expenditure incurred on mineral exploration and access (as defined in section 121(1) of the Capital Allowances Act 1990) in computing the profits or gains of a trade.

  53. CHARGEABLE GAINS (ROLL-OVER RELIEF ON RE-INVESTMENT)
  Resolved,
  That provision may be made about roll-over relief under Chapter IA of Part V of the Taxation of Chargeable Gains Act 1992.

  54. CHARGEABLE GAINS (CONVERSIONS ETC. OF SECURITIES)
  Resolved,
  That provision (including provision having retrospective effect) may be made for the purposes of the Taxation of Chargeable Gains Act 1992 about—

  (a) the conversion and exchange of securities;

  (b) the circumstances in which such conversions or exchanges are to be deemed to take place; and

  (c) the rights which are to be deemed to be securities of a company.

  55. DOUBLE TAXATION RELIEF (UNDERLYING TAX)
  Resolved,
  That provision may be made restricting the extent to which underlying tax may be taken into account, in accordance with Part XVIII of the Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1988, in determining the credits allowable against United Kingdom taxes.

  56. DOUBLE TAXATION RELIEF (LOAN RELATIONSHIPS)
  Resolved,
  That provision may be made amending section 807A of the Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1988.

  57. STAMP DUTY
  Resolved,
  That provision may be made about stamp duty.

  58. STAMP DUTY RESERVE TAX
  Resolved,
  That provision may be made about stamp duty reserve tax.

  PETROLEUM REVENUE TAX (ALLOWABLE NON-FIELD EXPENDITURE)
  Resolved,
  That provision (including provision having retrospective effect) may be made amending section 113 of the Finance Act 1984.

  RELIEF FROM TAX (INCIDENTAL AND CONSEQUENTIAL CHARGES)
  Resolved,
  That it is expedient to authorise any incidental or consequential charges to any duty or tax (including charges having retrospective effect) which may arise from provisions designed in general to afford relief from taxation.

  PROCEDURE (FUTURE TAXATION)
  Resolved,
  That, notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the practice of the House relating to the matters which may be included in Finance Bills, any Finance Bill of the present Session may contain provision taking effect in a future year for amending section 198 of the Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1988.

  FINANCE (MONEY)
  Queen's Recommendation having been signified—
  Resolved,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session relating to finance, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of money provided by Parliament of sums payable by the Secretary of State by virtue of provisions of that Act relating to vehicle excise and registration.
  Bill ordered to be brought in upon the foregoing resolutions: And that the Chairman of Ways and Means, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Secretary Heseltine, Mr. Secretary Howard, Mr. Secretary Lang, Mr. Secretary Gummer, Mr. Secretary Lilley, Mr. Secretary Dorrell, Mr. William Waldegrave, Mr. Phillip Oppenheim, Mrs. Angela Knight and Mr. Michael Jack do prepare and bring it in.

  FINANCE BILL
  Mr. Michael Jack accordingly presented a Bill to grant certain duties, to alter other duties, and to amend the law relating to the National Debt and the Public Revenue, and

  933
  to make further provision in connection with Finance: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time tomorrow and to be printed [Bill 47].

  PUBLIC EXPENDITURE
  MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER then proceeded to put forthwith the Questions necessary to dispose of proceedings on the motion relating to public expenditure, pursuant to Order [29 November].
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That this House welcomes the new public expenditure plans announced by Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer in his Budget speech on 26th November; congratulates Her Majesty's Government on maintaining firm control of public spending while increasing resources for key priority services including the health service, education and law and order; supports the Government's continuing progress in improving efficiency and controlling the costs of government; and applauds its plans to tackle fraud and evasion.—[Mr. Ottaway.]
  Amendment proposed to the Question, To leave out from "House" to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof:
  "rejects the incompetence and mismanagement of the economy by Her Majesty's Government, the misallocation of resources, wrong priorities and the failure to maintain proper and prudent control of the public finances that has resulted in declining public services, and the failure to rebuild infrastructure or to equip Britain for the future; calls for a new approach to rebuild the country, in particular a welfare to work programme financed by a windfall levy on the privatised utilities that will get people back to work and reduce the costs of economic failure, releasing resources for front line public services; calls for switches of resources to provide smaller class sizes from phasing out the Assisted Places Scheme and front line patient care from the costs of National Health Service bureaucracy; and believes that the failure of the Government to manage the economy has resulted in 22 tax rises, including the extension of VAT to domestic fuel, and an increased tax burden."—[Mr. Darling.]
  Question put, That the amendment be made:—
  The House divided: Ayes 280, Noes 316.

  Division No. 22]

  [11.3 pm

  AYES

  Abbott, Ms Diane

  Bray, Dr Jeremy

  Adams, Mrs Irene

  Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E)

  Ainger, Nick

  Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)

  Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)

  Burden, Richard

  Allen, Graham

  Byers, Stephen

  Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)

  Caborn, Richard

  Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale)

  Callaghan, Jim

  Armstrong, Ms Hilary

  Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

  Ashton, Joseph

  Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

  Austin-Walker, John

  Campbell-Savours, D N

  Banks, Tony (Newham NW)

  Canavan, Dennis

  Barnes, Harry

  Cann, Jamie

  Barren, Kevin

  Chisholm, Malcolm

  Battle, John

  Church, Ms Judith

  Bayley, Hugh

  Clapham, Michael

  Beckett, Mrs Margaret

  Clark, Dr David (S Shields)

  Bell, Stuart

  Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)

  Benn, Tony

  Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)

  Bennett, Andrew F

  Clelland, David

  Bermingham, Gerald

  Clwyd, Mrs Ann

  Berry, Roger

  Coffey, Ms Ann

  Betts, Clive

  Cohen, Harry

  Blair, Tony

  Connarty, Michael

  Blunkett, David

  Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

  Boateng, Paul

  Cook, Robin (Livingston)

  Boyes, Roland

  Corbyn, Jeremy

  Bradley, Keith

  Corston, Ms Jean

  934

  Cousins, Jim

  Hughes, Roy (Newport E)

  Cox, Tom

  Hutton, John

  Cummings, John

  Illsley, Eric

  Cunliffe, Lawrence

  Ingram, Adam

  Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try SE)

  Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampst'd)

  Cunningham, Dr John

  Jackson, Mrs Helen (Hillsborough)

  Cunningham, Ms R (Perth Kinross)

  Jamieson, David

  Dafis, Cynog

  Jenkins, Brian D (SE Staffs)

  Dalyell, Tam

  Jones, Barry (Alyn & D'side)

  Darling, Alistair

  Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Ynys Môn)

  Davidson, Ian

  Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)

  Davies, Bryan (Oldham C)

  Jones, Dr L (B'ham Selly Oak)

  Davies, Denzil (Llanelli)

  Jones, Martyn (Clwyd SW)

  Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)

  Jowell, Ms Tessa

  Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H)

  Kaufman, Gerald

  Denham, John

  Keen, Alan

  Dewar, Donald

  Kennedy, Mrs Jane (Broadgreen)

  Dixon, Don

  Khabra, Piara S

  Dobson, Frank

  Kilfoyle, Peter

  Donohoe, Brian H

  Lestor, Miss Joan (Eccles)

  Dowd, Jim

  Lewis, Terry

  Dunnachie, Jimmy

  Liddell, Mrs Helen

  Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth

  Litherland, Robert

  Eagle, Ms Angela

  Livingstone, Ken

  Eastham, Ken

  Lloyd, Tony (Stretf'd)

  Etherington, Bill

  Llwyd, Elfyn

  Evans, John (St Helens N)

  Loyden, Eddie

  Ewing, Mrs Margaret

  McAllion, John

  Faulds, Andrew

  McAvoy, Thomas

  Field, Frank (Birkenhead)

  McCartney, Ian (Makerf'ld)

  Fisher, Mark

  McCartney, Robert (N Down)

  Flynn, Paul

  McCrea, Rev William

  Foster, Derek

  Macdonald, Calum

  Foulkes, George

  McFall, John

  Fraser, John

  McGrady, Eddie

  Fyfe, Mrs Maria

  McKelvey, William

  Galbraith, Sam

  Mackinlay, Andrew

  Galloway, George

  McLeish, Henry

  Gapes, Mike

  McMaster, Gordon

  Garrett, John

  McNamara, Kevin

  George, Bruce

  MacShane, Denis

  Gerrard, Neil

  McWilliam, John

  Gilbert, Dr John

  Madden, Max

  Godman, Dr Norman A

  Mahon, Mrs Alice

  Godsiff, Roger

  Mallon, Seamus

  Golding, Mrs Llin

  Mandelson, Peter

  Gordon, Ms Mildred

  Marek, Dr John

  Graham, Thomas

  Marshall, David (Shettleston)

  Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)

  Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

  Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

  Martin, Michael J (Springburn)

  Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

  Martlew, Eric

  Grocott, Bruce

  Maxton, John

  Gunnell, John

  Meacher, Michael

  Hain, Peter

  Meale, Alan

  Hall, Mike

  Michael, Alun

  Hanson, David

  Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)

  Hardy, Peter

  Milburn, Alan

  Harman, Ms Harriet

  Miller, Andrew

  Hattersley, Roy

  Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)

  Henderson, Doug

  Moonie, Dr Lewis

  Hendron, Dr Joe

  Morgan, Rhodri

  Heppell, John

  Morley, Elliot

  Hill, Keith (Streatham)

  Morris, Alfred (Wy'nshawe)

  Hinchliffe, David

  Morris, Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley)

  Hodge, Ms Margaret

  Morris, John (Aberavon)

  Hoey, Miss Kate

  Mowlam, Ms Marjorie

  Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld)

  Mudie, George

  Home Robertson, John

  Mullin, Chris

  Hood, Jimmy

  Murphy, Paul

  Hoon, Geoffrey

  Oakes, Gordon

  Howarth, Alan (Stratf'd-on-A)

  O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)

  Howarth, George (Knowsley N)

  O'Brien, William (Normanton)

  Howells, Dr Kim

  O'Hara, Edward

  Hoyle, Doug

  Olner, Bill

  Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

  O'Neill, Martin

  Hughes, Robert (Ab'd'n N)

  Orme, Stanley

  935

  Paisley, Rev Ian

  Snape, Peter

  Parry, Robert

  Soley, Clive

  Pearson, Ian

  Spearing, Nigel

  Pendry, Tom

  Spellar, John

  Pickthall, Colin

  Squire, Ms R (Dunfermline W)

  Pike, Peter L

  Steinberg, Gerry

  Pope, Greg

  Stevenson, George

  Powell, Sir Raymond (Ogmore)

  Stott, Roger

  Prentice, Mrs B (Lewisham E)

  Strang, Dr Gavin

  Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

  Straw, Jack

  Prescott, John

  Sutcliffe, Gerry

  Primarolo, Ms Dawn

  Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)

  Purchase, Ken

  Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)

  Quin, Ms Joyce

  Timms, Stephen

  Radice, Giles

  Tipping, Paddy

  Randall, Stuart

  Touhig, Don

  Raynsford, Nick

  Trickett, Jon

  Reid, Dr John

  Vaz, Keith

  Robertson, George (Hamilton)

  Walker, Sir Harold

  Robinson, Geoffrey (Cov'try NW)

  Walley, Ms Joan

  Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)

  Wardell, Gareth (Gower)

  Roche, Mrs Barbara

  Wareing, Robert N

  Rogers, Allan

  Watson, Mike

  Rooker, Jeff

  Welsh, Andrew

  Rooney, Terry

  Wicks, Malcolm

  Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

  Wigley, Dafydd

  Rowlands, Ted

  Williams, Alan (Swansea W)

  Ruddock, Ms Joan

  Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen)

  Salmond, Alex

  Wilson, Brian

  Sedgemore, Brian

  Winnick, David

  Sheerman, Barry

  Wise, Mrs Audrey

  Sheldon, Robert

  Worthington, Tony

  Shore, Peter

  Wray, Jimmy

  Short, Ms Clare

  Wright, Dr Tony

  Simpson, Alan

  Young, David (Bolton SE)

  Skinner, Dennis

  Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)

  Tellers for the Ayes:

  Smith, Chris (Islington S)

  Mr. Joe Benton and

  Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)

  Mr. Dennis Turner.

  NOES

  Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)

  Brazier, Julian

  Aitken, Jonathan

  Bright, Sir Graham

  Alexander, Richard

  Brooke, Peter

  Alison, Michael (Selby)

  Brown, Michael (Brigg Cl'thorpes)

  Allason, Rupert (Torbay)

  Browning, Mrs Angela

  Amess, David

  Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)

  Ancram, Michael

  Budgen, Nicholas

  Arbuthnot, James

  Burns, Simon

  Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

  Burt, Alistair

  Ashby, David

  Butcher, John

  Aspinwall, Jack

  Butler, Peter

  Atkins, Robert

  Butterfill, John

  Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)

  Carlisle, John (Luton N)

  Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

  Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Linc'n)

  Baker, Kenneth (Mole V)

  Carrington, Matthew

  Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset)

  Carttiss, Michael

  Baldry, Tony

  Cash, William

  Banks, Matthew (Southport)

  Channon, Paul

  Banks, Robert (Harrogate)

  Chapman, Sir Sydney

  Bates, Michael

  Churchill, Mr

  Batiste, Spencer

  Clappison, James

  Bellingham, Henry

  Clark, Dr Michael (Rochf'd)

  Bendall, Vivian

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushdiffe)

  Beresford, Sir Paul

  Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

  Biffen, John

  Coe, Sebastian

  Body, Sir Richard

  Colvin, Michael

  Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

  Congdon, David

  Booth, Hartley

  Conway, Derek

  Boswell, Tim

  Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F)

  Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)

  Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

  Bottomley, Mrs Virginia

  Cope, Sir John

  Bowden, Sir Andrew

  Cormack, Sir Patrick

  Bowis, John

  Couchman, James

  Boyson, Sir Rhodes

  Cran, James

  Brandreth, Gyles

  Currie, Mrs Edwina

  936

  Curry, David

  Howard, Michael

  Davies, Quentin (Stamf'd)

  Howell, David (Guildf'd)

  Davis, David (Boothferry)

  Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)

  Day, Stephen

  Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)

  Deva, Nirj Joseph

  Hunt, David (Wirral W)

  Devlin, Tim

  Hunt, Sir John (Ravensb'ne)

  Dicks, Terry

  Hunter, Andrew

  Dorrell, Stephen

  Hurd, Douglas

  Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

  Jack, Michael

  Dover, Den

  Jackson, Robert (Wantage)

  Duncan, Alan

  Jenkin, Bernard (Colchester N)

  Duncan Smith, Iain

  Jessel, Toby

  Dunn, Bob

  Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

  Durant, Sir Anthony

  Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

  Dykes, Hugh

  Jones, Robert B (W Herts)

  Eggar, Tim

  Jopling, Michael

  Elletson, Harold

  Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine

  Emery, Sir Peter

  Key, Robert

  Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'ld)

  King, Tom

  Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)

  Kirkhope, Timothy

  Evans, Nigel (Ribble V)

  Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)

  Evans, Roger (Monmouth)

  Knight, Greg (Derby N)

  Evennett, David

  Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)

  Faber, David

  Knox, Sir David

  Fabricant, Michael

  Kynoch, George

  Fenner, Dame Peggy

  Lait, Mrs Jacqui

  Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)

  Lamont, Norman

  Fishburn, Dudley

  Lang, Ian

  Forman, Nigel

  Lawrence, Sir Ivan

  Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

  Legg, Barry

  Forth, Eric

  Leigh, Edward

  Fowler, Sir Norman

  Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark

  Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)

  Lester, Sir Jim (Broxtowe)

  Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)

  Lidington, David

  Freeman, Roger

  Lilley, Peter

  French, Douglas

  Lloyd, Sir Peter (Fareham)

  Fry, Sir Peter

  Lord, Michael

  Gale, Roger

  Luff, Peter

  Gallie, Phil

  Lyell, Sir Nicholas

  Gardiner, Sir George

  MacGregor, John

  Garnier, Edward

  MacKay, Andrew

  Gill, Christopher

  Maclean, David

  Gillan, Mrs Cheryl

  McLoughlin, Patrick

  Goodlad, Alastair

  McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick

  Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

  Madel, Sir David

  Gorman, Mrs Teresa

  Maitland, Lady Olga

  Gorst, Sir John

  Malone, Gerald

  Grant, Sir Anthony (SW Cambs)

  Mans, Keith

  Greenway, Harry (Eating N)

  Marland, Paul

  Greenway, John (Ryedale)

  Marlow, Tony

  Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)

  Marshall, John (Hendon S)

  Grylls, Sir Michael

  Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)

  Gummer, John

  Martin, David (Portsmouth S)

  Hague, William

  Mates, Michael

  Hamilton, Sir Archibald

  Mawhinney, Dr Brian

  Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

  Mayhew, Sr Patrick

  Hampson, Dr Keith

  Mellor, David

  Hanley, Jeremy

  Merchant, Piers

  Hannam, Sir John

  Mills, Iain

  Hargreaves, Andrew

  Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)

  Harris, David

  Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)

  Haselhurst, Sir Alan

  Moate, Sir Roger

  Hawkins, Nick

  Monro, Sir Hector

  Hawksley, Warren

  Montgomery, Sir Fergus

  Hayes, Jerry

  Moss, Malcolm

  Heald, Oliver

  Needham, Richard

  Heath, Sir Edward

  Nelson, Anthony

  Heathcoat-Amory, David

  Neubert, Sir Michael

  Hendry, Charles

  Newton, Tony

  Heseltine, Michael

  Nicholls, Patrick

  Hicks, Sir Robert

  Nicholson, David (Taunton)

  Higgins, Sir Terence

  Norris, Steve

  Hill, Sir James (Southampton Test)

  Onslow, Sir Cranley

  Hogg, Douglas (Grantham)

  Oppenheim, Phillip

  Horam, John

  Page, Richard

  Hordern, Sir Peter

  Paice, James

  937

  Patnick, Sir Irvine

  Streeter, Gary

  Patten, John

  Sumberg, David

  Pattie, Sir Geoffrey

  Sweeney, Walter

  Pawsey, James

  Sykes, John

  Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth

  Tapsell, Sir Peter

  Pickles, Eric

  Taylor, Ian (Esher)

  Porter, David

  Taylor, John M (Solihull)

  Portillo, Michael

  Taylor, Sir Teddy

  Powell, William (Corby)

  Temple-Morris, Peter

  Rathbone, Tim

  Thomason, Roy

  Redwood, John

  Thompson, Sir Donald (Calder V)

  Renton, Tim

  Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)

  Richards, Rod

  Thomton, Sir Malcolm

  Riddick, Graham

  Townend, John (Bridlington)

  Rifkind, Malcolm

  Townsend, Cyril D (Bexl'yh'th)

  Robathan, Andrew

  Tracey, Richard

  Roberts, Sir Wyn

  Tredinnick, David

  Robertson, Raymond S (Ab'd'n S)

  Trend, Michael

  Robinson, Mark (Somerton)

  Trotter, Neville

  Roe, Mrs Marion

  Twinn, Dr Ian

  Rowe, Andrew

  Vaughan, Sir Gerard

  Rumbold, Dame Angela

  Viggers, Peter

  Ryder, Richard

  Waldegrave, William

  Sackville, Tom

  Walden, George

  Sainsbury, Sir Timothy

  Walker, Bill (N Tayside)

  Shaw, David (Dover)

  Waller, Gary

  Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)

  Ward, John

  Shephard, Mrs Gillian

  Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)

  Shepherd, Sir Colin (Henef'd)

  Waterson, Nigel

  Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)

  Watts, John

  Shersby, Sir Michael

  Wells, Bowen

  Sims, Sir Roger

  Wheeler, Sir John

  Skeet, Sir Trevor

  Whitney, Ray

  Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)

  Whittingdale, John

  Smith, Tim (Beaconsf'ld)

  Widdecombe, Miss Ann

  Soames, Nicholas

  Wiggin, Sir Jerry

  Speed, Sir Keith

  Wilkinson, John

  Spencer, Sir Derek

  Willetts, David

  Spicer, Sir Jim (W Dorset)

  Wilshire, David

  Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs)

  Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)

  Spink, Dr Robert

  Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesf'ld)

  Spring, Richard

  Wolfson, Mark

  Sproat, Iain

  Wood, Timothy

  Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)

  Yeo, Tim

  Stanley, Sir John

  Young, Sir George

  Steen, Anthony

  Stephen, Michael

  Tellers for the Noes:

  Stern, Michael

  Mr. Roger Knapman and

  Stewart, Allan

  Mr. Richard Ottaway.

  Question accordingly negatived.
  Main Question put:—
  The House divided: Ayes 312, Noes 306.

  Division No. 23]

  [11.17 pm

  AYES

  Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)

  Banks, Matthew (Southport)

  Aitken, Jonathan

  Banks, Robert (Harrogate)

  Alexander, Richard

  Batiste, Spencer

  Alison, Michael (Selby)

  Bellingham, Henry

  Allason, Rupert (Torbay)

  Bendall, Vivian

  Amess, David

  Beresford, Sir Paul

  Ancram, Michael

  Biffen, John

  Arbuthnot, James

  Body, Sir Richard

  Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

  Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

  Ashby, David

  Booth, Hartley

  Aspinwall, Jack

  Boswell, Tim

  Atkins, Robert

  Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)

  Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)

  Bottomley, Mrs Virginia

  Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

  Bowden, Sir Andrew

  Baker, Kenneth (Mole V)

  Bowis, John

  Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset)

  Boyson, Sir Rhodes

  Baldry, Tony

  Brandreth, Gyles

  938

  Brazier, Julian

  Gill, Christopher

  Bright, Sir Graham

  Gillan, Mrs Cheryl

  Brooke, Peter

  Goodlad, Alastair

  Brown, Michael (Brigg Cl'thorpes)

  Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

  Browning, Mrs Angela

  Gorman, Mrs Teresa

  Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)

  Gorst, Sir John

  Budgen, Nicholas

  Grant, Sir Anthony (SW Cambs)

  Burns, Simon

  Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)

  Butt, Alistair

  Greenway, John (Ryedale)

  Butcher, John

  Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)

  Butler, Peter

  Grylls, Sir Michael

  Butterfill, John

  Gummer, John

  Carlisle, John (Luton N)

  Hague, William

  Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Linc'n)

  Hamilton, Sir Archibald

  Carrington, Matthew

  Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

  Carttiss, Michael

  Hampson, Dr Keith

  Cash, William

  Hanley, Jeremy

  Channon, Paul

  Hannam, Sir John

  Chapman, Sir Sydney

  Hargreaves, Andrew

  Churchill, Mr

  Harris, David

  Clappison, James

  Haselhurst, Sir Alan

  Clark, Dr Michael (Rochf'd)

  Hawkins, Nick

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Hawksley, Warren

  Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

  Hayes, Jerry

  Coe, Sebastian

  Heald, Oliver

  Colvin, Michael

  Heath, Sir Edward

  Congdon, David

  Heathcoat-Amory, David

  Conway, Derek

  Hendry, Charles

  Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F)

  Heseltine, Michael

  Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

  Hicks, Sir Robert

  Cope, Sir John

  Higgins, Sir Terence

  Cormack, Sir Patrick

  Hill, Sir James (Southampton Test)

  Couchman, James

  Hogg, Douglas (Grantham)

  Cran, James

  Horam, John

  Currie, Mrs Edwina

  Hordern, Sir Peter

  Curry, David

  Howard, Michael

  Davies, Quentin (Stamf'd)

  Howell, David (Guildf'd)

  Davis, David (Boothferry)

  Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)

  Day, Stephen

  Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)

  Deva, Nirj Joseph

  Hunt, David (Wirral W)

  Devlin, Tim

  Hunt, Sir John (Ravensb'ne)

  Dicks, Terry

  Hunter, Andrew

  Dorrell, Stephen

  Jack, Michael

  Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

  Jackson, Robert (Wantage)

  Dover, Den

  Jenkin, Bernard (Colchester N)

  Duncan, Alan

  Jessel, Toby

  Duncan Smith, Iain

  Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

  Dunn, Bob

  Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

  Durant, Sir Anthony

  Jones, Robert B (W Herts)

  Dykes, Hugh

  Jopling, Michael

  Eggar, Tim

  Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine

  Elletson, Harold

  Key, Robert

  Emery, Sir Peter

  King, Tom

  Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'ld)

  Kirkhope, Timothy

  Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)

  Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)

  Evans, Nigel (Ribble V)

  Knight, Greg (Derby N)

  Evans, Roger (Monmouth)

  Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)

  Evennett, David

  Knox, Sir David

  Faber, David

  Kynoch, George

  Fabricant, Michael

  Lait, Mrs Jacqui

  Fenner, Dame Peggy

  Lamont, Norman

  Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)

  Lang, Ian

  Fishburn, Dudley

  Lawrence, Sir Ivan

  Forman, Nigel

  Legg, Barry

  Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

  Leigh, Edward

  Forth, Eric

  Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark

  Fowler, Sir Norman

  Lester, Sir Jim (Broxtowe)

  Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)

  Lidington, David

  Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)

  Lilley, Peter

  Freeman, Roger

  Lloyd, Sir Peter (Fareham)

  French, Douglas

  Lord, Michael

  Fry, Sir Peter

  Luff, Peter

  Gale, Roger

  Lyell, Sir Nicholas

  Gallie, Phil

  MacGregor, John

  Gardiner, Sir George

  MacKay, Andrew

  Garnier, Edward

  Maclean, David

  939

  McLoughlin, Patrick

  Sims, Sir Roger

  McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick

  Skeet, Sir Trevor

  Madel, Sir David

  Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)

  Maitland, Lady Olga

  Smith, Tim (Beaconsf'ld)

  Malone, Gerald

  Soames, Nicholas

  Mans, Keith

  Speed, Sir Keith

  Marland, Paul

  Spencer, Sir Derek

  Marlow, Tony

  Spicer, Sir Jim (W Dorset)

  Marshall, John (Hendon S)

  Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs)

  Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)

  Spink, Dr Robert

  Martin, David (Portsmouth S)

  Spring, Richard

  Mates, Michael

  Sproat, Iain

  Mayhew, Sir Patrick

  Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)

  Mellor, David

  Stanley, Sir John

  Merchant, Piers

  Steen, Anthony

  Mills, Iain

  Stephen, Michael

  Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)

  Stern, Michael

  Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)

  Stewart, Allan

  Moate, Sir Roger

  Streeter, Gary

  Monro, Sir Hector

  Sumberg, David

  Montgomery, Sir Fergus

  Sweeney, Walter

  Moss, Malcolm

  Sykes, John

  Needham, Richard

  Tapsell, Sir Peter

  Nelson, Anthony

  Taylor, Ian (Esher)

  Neubert, Sir Michael

  Taylor, John M (Solihull)

  Newton, Tony

  Temple-Morris, Peter

  Nicholls, Patrick

  Thomason, Roy

  Nicholson, David (Taunton)

  Thompson, Sir Donald (Calder V)

  Norris, Steve

  Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)

  Onslow, Sir Cranley

  Thornton, Sir Malcolm

  Oppenheim, Phillip

  Townend, John (Bridlington)

  Ottaway, Richard

  Townsend, Cyril D (Bexl'yh'th)

  Page, Richard

  Tracey, Richard

  Paice, James

  Tredinnick, David

  Patnick, Sir Irvine

  Trend, Michael

  Patten, John

  Trotter, Neville

  Pattie, Sir Geoffrey

  Twinn, Dr Ian

  Pawsey, James

  Vaughan, Sir Gerard

  Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth

  Viggers, Peter

  Pickles, Eric

  Walden, George

  Porter, David

  Walker, Bill (N Tayside)

  Portillo, Michael

  Waller, Gary

  Powell, William (Corby)

  Ward, John

  Rathbone, Tim

  Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)

  Redwood, John

  Waterson, Nigel

  Renton, Tim

  Watts, John

  Richards, Rod

  Wells, Bowen

  Riddick, Graham

  Wheeler, Sir John

  Rifkind, Malcolm

  Whitney, Ray

  Robathan, Andrew

  Whittingdale, John

  Roberts, Sir Wyn

  Widdecombe, Miss Ann

  Robertson, Raymond S (Ab'd'n S)

  Wiggin, Sir Jerry

  Robinson, Mark (Somerton)

  Wilkinson, John

  Roe, Mrs Marion

  Willetts, David

  Rowe, Andrew

  Wilshire, David

  Rumbold, Dame Angela

  Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)

  Ryder, Richard

  Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesf'ld)

  Sackville, Tom

  Wolfson, Mark

  Sainsbury, Sir Timothy

  Wood, Timothy

  Shaw, David (Dover)

  Yeo, Tim

  Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)

  Young, Sir George

  Shephard, Mrs Gillian

  Shepherd, Sir Colin (Heref'd)

  Tellers for the Ayes:

  Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)

  Mr. Michael Bates and

  Shersby, Sir Michael

  Mr. Roger Knapman.

  NOES

  Abbott, Ms Diane

  Ashdown, Paddy

  Adams, Mrs Irene

  Ashton, Joseph

  Ainger, Nick

  Austin-Walker, John

  Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)

  Banks, Tony (Newham NW)

  Allen, Graham

  Barnes, Harry

  Alton, David

  Barron, Kevin

  Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)

  Battle, John

  Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale)

  Bayley, Hugh

  Armstrong, Ms Hilary

  Beckett, Mrs Margaret

  940

  Beith, AJ

  Foster, Derek

  Bell, Stuart

  Foster, Don (Bath)

  Benn, Tony

  Foulkes, George

  Bennett, Andrew F

  Fraser, John

  Bermingham, Gerald

  Fyfe, Mrs Maria

  Berry, Roger

  Galbraith, Sam

  Betts, Clive

  Galloway, George

  Blair, Tony

  Gapes, Mike

  Blunkett, David

  Garrett, John

  Boateng, Paul

  George, Bruce

  Boyes, Roland

  Gerrard, Neil

  Bradley, Keith

  Gilbert, Dr John

  Bray, Dr Jeremy

  Godman, Dr Norman A

  Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E)

  Godsiff, Roger

  Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)

  Golding, Mrs Llin

  Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)

  Gordon, Ms Mildred

  Burden, Richard

  Graham, Thomas

  Byers, Stephen

  Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)

  Caborn, Richard

  Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

  Callaghan, Jim

  Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

  Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

  Grocott, Bruce

  Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

  Gunnell, John

  Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

  Hain, Peter

  Campbell-Savours, D N

  Hall, Mike

  Canavan, Dennis

  Hanson, David

  Cann, Jamie

  Hardy, Peter

  Carlile, Alex (Montgomery)

  Harman, Ms Harriet

  Chidgey, David

  Harvey, Nick

  Chisholm, Malcolm

  Hattersley, Roy

  Church, Ms Judith

  Henderson, Doug

  Clapham, Michael

  Hendron, Dr Joe

  Clark, Dr David (S Shields)

  Heppell, John

  Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)

  Hill, Keith (Streatham)

  Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)

  Hinchliffe, David

  Clelland, David

  Hodge, Ms Margaret

  Clwyd, Mrs Ann

  Hoey, Miss Kate

  Coffey, Ms Ann

  Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld)

  Cohen, Harry

  Home Robertson, John

  Connarty, Michael

  Hood, Jimmy

  Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

  Hoon, Geoffrey

  Cook, Robin (Livingston)

  Howarth, Alan (Stratf'd-on-A)

  Corbyn, Jeremy

  Howarth, George (Knowsley N)

  Corston, Ms Jean

  Howells, Dr Kim

  Cousins, Jim

  Hoyle, Doug

  Cox, Tom

  Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

  Cummings, John

  Hughes, Robert (Ab'd'n N)

  Cunliffe, Lawrence

  Hughes, Roy (Newport E)

  Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try SE)

  Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

  Cunningham, Dr John

  Hume, John

  Cunningham, Ms R (Perth Kinross)

  Hutton, John

  Dafis, Cynog

  Illsley, Eric

  Dalyell, Tam

  Ingram, Adam

  Darling, Alistair

  Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampsf'd)

  Davidson, Ian

  Jackson, Mrs Helen (Hillsborough)

  Davies, Bryan (Oldham C)

  Jamieson, David

  Davies, Chris (Littleborough)

  Jenkins, Brian D (SE Staffs)

  Davies, Denzil (Llanelli)

  Johnston, Sir Russell

  Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)

  Jones, Barry (Alyn & D'side)

  Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H)

  Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Ynys Môn)

  Denham, John

  Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)

  Dewar, Donald

  Jones, Dr L (B'ham Selly Oak)

  Dixon, Don

  Jones, Martyn (Clwyd SW)

  Dobson, Frank

  Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)

  Donohoe, Brian H

  Jowell, Ms Tessa

  Dowd, Jim

  Kaufman, Gerald

  Dunnachie, Jimmy

  Keen, Alan

  Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth

  Kennedy, Charles (Ross C & S)

  Eagle, Ms Angela

  Kennedy, Mrs Jane (Broadgreen)

  Eastham, Ken

  Khabra, Piara S

  Etherington, Bill

  Kilfoyle, Peter

  Evans, John (St Helens N)

  Kirkwood, Archy

  Ewing, Mrs Margaret

  Lestor, Miss Joan (Eccles)

  Faulds, Andrew

  Lewis, Terry

  Field, Frank (Birkenhead)

  Liddell, Mrs Helen

  Fisher, Mark

  Litherland, Robert

  Flynn, Paul

  Livingstone, Ken

  941

  Lloyd, Tony (Stretf'd)

  Quin, Ms Joyce

  Llwyd, Elfyn

  Radice, Giles

  Loyden, Eddie

  Randall, Stuart

  Lynne, Ms Liz

  Raynsford, Nick

  McAllion, John

  Reid, Dr John

  McAvoy, Thomas

  Rendel, David

  McCartney, Ian (Makerf'ld)

  Robertson, George (Hamilton)

  McCartney, Robert (N Down)

  Robinson, Geoffrey (Cov'try NW)

  McCrea, Rev William

  Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)

  Macdonald, Calum

  Roche, Mrs Barbara

  McFall, John

  Rogers, Allan

  McGrady, Eddie

  Rooker, Jeff

  McKelvey, William

  Rooney, Terry

  Mackinlay, Andrew

  Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

  McLeish, Henry

  Rowlands, Ted

  Maclennan, Robert

  Ruddock, Ms Joan

  McMaster, Gordon

  Salmond, Alex

  McNamara, Kevin

  Sedgemore, Brian

  MacShane, Denis

  Sheerman, Barry

  McWilliam, John

  Sheldon, Robert

  Madden, Max

  Shore, Peter

  Maddock, Mrs Diana

  Short, Ms Clare

  Mahon, Mrs Alice

  Simpson, Alan

  Mallon, Seamus

  Skinner, Dennis

  Mandelson, Peter

  Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)

  Marek, Dr John

  Smith, Chris (Islington S)

  Marshall, David (Shettleston)

  Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)

  Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

  Snape, Peter

  Martin, Michael J (Springbum)

  Soley, Clive

  Martlew, Eric

  Spearing, Nigel

  Maxton, John

  Spellar, John

  Meacher, Michael

  Squire, Ms R (Dunfermline W)

  Meale, Alan

  Steinberg, Gerry

  Michael, Alun

  Stevenson, George

  Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)

  Stott, Roger

  Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute)

  Strang, Dr Gavin

  Milburn, Alan

  Straw, Jack

  Miller, Andrew

  Sutcliffe, Gerry

  Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)

  Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)

  Moonie, Dr Lewis

  Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

  Morgan, Rhodri

  Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)

  Morley, Elliot

  Thurnham, Peter

  Morris, Alfred (Wy'nshawe)

  Timms, Stephen

  Morris, Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley)

  Tipping, Paddy

  Morris, John (Aberavon)

  Touhig, Don

  Mowlam, Ms Marjorie

  Trickett, Jon

  Mudie, George

  Tyler, Paul

  Mullin, Chris

  Vaz, Keith

  Murphy, Paul

  Walker, Sir Harold

  Nicholson, Miss Emma (W Devon)

  Wallace, James

  Oakes, Gordon

  Walley, Ms Joan

  O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)

  Wandell, Gareth (Gower)

  O'Brien, William (Normanton)

  Wareing, Robert N

  O'Hara, Edward

  Watson, Mike

  Olner, Bill

  Welsh, Andrew

  O'Neill, Martin

  Wicks, Malcolm

  Orme, Stanley

  Wigley, Dafydd

  Paisley, Rev Ian

  Williams, Alan (Swansea W)

  Parry, Robert

  Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen)

  Pearson, Ian

  Wilson, Brian

  Pendry, Tom

  Winnick, David

  Pickthall, Colin

  Wise, Mrs Audrey

  Pike, Peter L

  Worthington, Tony

  Pope, Greg

  Wray, Jimmy

  Powell, Sir Raymond (Ogmore)

  Wright, Dr Tony

  Prentice, Mrs B (Lewisham E)

  Young, David (Bolton SE)

  Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

  Prescott, John

  Tellers for the Noes:

  Primarolo, Ms Dawn

  Mr. Joe Benton and

  Purchase, Ken

  Mr. Dennis Turner.

  Question accordingly agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That this House welcomes the new public expenditure plans announced by Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer in his Budget speech on 26th November; congratulates Her Majesty's Government on maintaining firm control of public spending while increasing resources for key priority services including the health service, education and law and order; supports the Government's continuing progress in improving efficiency and controlling the costs of government; and applauds its plans to tackle fraud and evasion.

PETITION

  Firework Safety
  11.31 pm
  Mr. John Heppell: I beg leave to introduce a petition from 20,910 people in Greater Nottingham. The petition was started by a woman whose dog was killed but, within a week of the petition being started, a young man in my constituency, Dale Mitchell, had died as a result of the misuse of fireworks. The petition calls on the House of Commons to instruct the Department of Trade and Industry to tighten up on firework legislation.
  The petition on firework legislation to the House of Commons, the petition of the following signatories, declares that the existing firework legislation is inadequate and is a danger to public safety. Numerous incidents have occurred where fireworks have been thrown at members of the public or otherwise misused, on occasion leading to the death of or injury to people and animals. The petitioners request that the House of Commons instructs the Department of Trade and Industry to tighten up firework legislation. In particular, we call upon the Secretary of State to introduce a licensing system for the sale and display of fireworks so that only organised groupings who have ensured the health and safety of the public may purchase and use fireworks.
  To lie upon the Table.

Incapacity Benefits
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Coe.]
11.33 pm
Mr. Llew Smith: I represent one of the poorest communities in Wales; linked to that, we have some of the worst health problems. Figures for cancers, and for respiratory and heart disease are among the worst in England and Wales, and the 1991 census showed that 41 per cent. of all households had a member suffering from a long-term illness or disability. In response to a recent question of mine, the Minister for Social Security and Disabled People admitted that, on 31 March 1996, 4,553 people in Blaenau Gwent were on the register of persons with a physical or sensory disability. Linked to poverty are high levels of unemployment. Where there are jobs, they are more often than not low-paid, and increasingly they are part-time.
I make these points about poverty, unemployment and bad health to remind hon. Members that they are interrelated, and to highlight the seriousness of the health problems in Blaenau Gwent, the difficulties that claimants face in finding work, even if they are fit to work, and the importance of the subject to my constituency and many others.
More and more people recognise that the medical examinations conducted for incapacity benefit by Benefit Agency-appointed doctors are not a test of incapacity to work. Those examinations are a degrading experience, conducted in an uncaring manner and introduced by the Government with no concern for the health and well-being of the individual.
I shall comment on those and many other points by referring to the case of David Holmes, who was a constituent of mine before his death on 5 November. I knew him, and he was a much-loved and respected member of the community. To a great extent, I shall repeat David's words: this is his speech. I am merely giving expression to the thoughts that he put in a letter he wrote, but could not post to the Department of Social Security, a day before he died.
In 1982 David experienced a massive heart attack. After recovering in hospital, he recalled in the letter to which I referred that he was told by Dr. Thomas, the consultant at Nevill Hall hospital:
"'You can forget about work, as you will never work again, the reason being, if you have another coronary like the last one, you will never survive it'".
Over the next few years, David was sent to three independent doctors—Dr. Edwards, Dr. Rau and Dr. Neville. He recalled:
"those doctors agreed on one salient point—I was medically unfit to work. I was then granted a Mobility pension for the rest of my life."
Yet, in October, Mr. Holmes was ordered to appear before a DSS-appointed doctor. On 30 October, he was informed that he was fit to work. Less than a week later, on 5 November, David died of a massive heart attack.
The letter that David wrote to the DSS was an expression of the stress he experienced and the hopelessness he felt at the failure of the DSS to appreciate the true extent of his illness. He recognised that the

945
decision had less to do with the state of his health than with the Government's politics and the challenge to the DSS decision. David wrote:
"I am convinced that this assessment is based not on the state of my health, but is purely and simply a political issue. We are all aware of the forthcoming general election. We are also all aware of the Government's statement, 'We will get the long-term unemployed back to work.' They did not add 'at any cost'."
I share those sentiments. When the Government's priority was to overcome unemployment, or so they claimed, they were willing to keep people like David on the far more expensive invalidity benefit, as it was then, to give the impression that unemployment was falling. 'When their priorities changed, however, to cutting public expenditure, they set about driving David and others off what is now incapacity benefit and on to the dole. Their only concern was to cut costs, as David's tragic death demonstrates.
How can we claim to be a civilised society if we put money before people's health, or indeed their lives? We are rapidly debasing the idea of being civilised by removing dignity from some of the most vulnerable people in our community.
I shall continue to quote from David's letter, in which he refers to the one point upon which he and the DSS adjudicators agreed: his mobility problems. He states:
"Form 1B–65A states 'Cannot walk more than 200m without stopping or severe discomfort'. (On a bad day, I cannot leave the house). This is the precise reason why I was granted the mobility pension! My mobility problems are caused by respiratory problems, which are caused by angina, which, in turn, is a direct result of the coronary thrombosis!!!
How can a doctor, whom I saw for less than 40 minutes, and who asked the most irrelevant questions—'What TV programmes do you watch?' and 'What books do you read?'—and a DSS adjudication officer, make an assessment on the state of my health and state that I am medically able to return to work, based on a questionnaire, which was hardly relevant to my particular circumstances?
They have never seen me on a bad day, on the edge of the bed, trying to get my breath before I can even dress, trying to control my breathing before I can make a cup of tea.
I count myself very lucky when this happens, as my friend's wife telephones every morning to see that I am all right.
On one of my bad days, she will come up to see what she can do for me. Contrary to that stated on form 1B–65A, Lifting and Carrying, my friend and his wife do all my weekly shopping for me as I am unable to carry heavy shopping bags without getting chest pains.
Also, with regard to Bending and Kneeling, I am unable to do much of either without suffering shortness of breath.
All of which I told the DSS Medical Examiner, to no avail, after reading the report results on form 1B–65A.
I have always considered the doctors and nursing profession grossly overworked and it was due to these considerations that I did not send for the doctor when I suffered angina chest pains.
It now seems I am being penalised for this oversight on my part. I would like nothing better than to have my health restored, have a job of work with a decent living wage and live a normal life like other people. Instead I get very frustrated and depressed. I fail to see why I should have to risk another coronary and therefore risk my life to further the political aspirations of Government bureaucrats."
David also kept a diary, which is worth quoting in order to gain an insight into his feelings about the medical examination. It reads:
"Medical examination, Pontllanfraith, 9.15 am, waste of time".
David was correct once again, for the medical examination is no test of incapacity to work—it is not even a fair test of incapacity. It pretends to measure
946
incapacity for work and is called the "all-work test" in the legislation. People who fail the all-work test are treated as being fit for work. However, the all-work test does not try to assess whether people could do any kind of paid work, given their ill health or disability.
It lists a range of activities, each of which has a point score if the claimant cannot perform that activity. The schedule to the Social Security Incapacity for Work (General) Regulations 1995 lists all of those activities and says that they are
"disabilities which may make a person incapable of work".
However, a person's score depends on how many of the activities he cannot perform—not on how his ability or inability to perform them affects his capacity to do paid work.
Unless a person scores 15 points, he cannot be treated as unfit for work. Someone who cannot walk is automatically treated as unfit for work and scores 15 points. However, we all know plenty of people who cannot walk but who are perfectly able to do a full day's work. Equally, if a person's only disability is that his hands are too weak to allow him to lift a full kettle, he receives 15 points and is classed as unfit for work. However, someone would receive only eight points for being unable to lift some potatoes.
The test seriously disadvantages many people who can walk a bit, bend and kneel a bit, or whose conditions fluctuate but who, because of pain or low stamina, for example, would not be able to sustain such activities in a manner that allows them to work. For example, someone who cannot walk for more than 200 m without stopping or suffering severe discomfort scores only seven points—below half what is needed to be accepted as unfit—but in many instances that would be a serious impediment to holding down a job. Other claimants—perhaps this applied to David Holmes—might be able, in a purely technical sense, to walk, bend and lift things, but should not do so because it puts their health at risk or could cause them to deteriorate.
Some people who are perfectly able to work could easily be classed as "unfit for work" according to the all-work test. On the other hand, many people who are not fit for work, with which doctors, family friends—anyone with common sense—would agree just by looking at them, regularly fail to score the necessary 15 points.
If a benefit system requires people to sign on unless they are unfit for work, there has to be some test or proof of incapacity, but whatever Parliament or Government opt for should be a fair test of whether someone is well enough to do a job, and individuals should not find that their status has changed overnight, when their state of their health has not, just to suit the political or economic priorities of the Government of the day.
David's closest friends, Dennis and Pauline Johnson, are convinced that the worry about the adjudicator's decision contributed to his death. Pauline Johnson said:
"David has been worried sick about going to the medical … After finding out he had lost his benefit, David was a changed man".
The DSS spokesperson said:
"I am sorry to hear about Mr. Holmes' death, but can't discuss individual cases."
The local community have demanded that I raise this issue in Parliament, because they want David's case discussed. They want explanations of why he was

947
declared "fit for work" when he obviously was not; why he regarded the examination as a "waste of time"; how the examinations are conducted and conclusions reached; and why, as David said, he should have to
"risk another coronary and therefore my life to further the political aspiration of Government bureaucrats."
We are not pretending that David's is an isolated case or that thousands of claimants have not been victimised by the system, but we are determined that his treatment by the DSS is not forgotten and that he does not merely become a statistic of a system that does not work or care.
David's case would not have been highlighted were it not for his friends and the local newspaper, the Gwent Gazette—particularly Gordon Caldecott, one of its journalists.
We all hope that something positive can come from David Holmes's tragic death.
11.47 pm
The Minister for Social Security and Disabled People (Mr. Alistair Burt): I am grateful to the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Mr. Smith) for raising this case. I know that he has taken a great interest in it. I begin by expressing my personal sympathy for the family and friends of Mr. Holmes at this difficult time.
Mr. Holmes's death so soon after his medical examination is, of course, of great concern to the Department. It is quite right that spokesmen do not discuss personal details, particularly with the media, after an incident, but it is equally proper that the matter is raised at times such as this. The Benefits Agency has looked very carefully at the facts and circumstances of the case, and I understand that the Agency's chief executive is to respond separately to the hon. Gentleman shortly.
Having looked at the details of Mr. Holmes's case, I am satisfied that at every stage the claim was handled in a proper manner and in line with the procedures and guidance provided. The arrangements for dealing with claims for incapacity benefit have been carefully designed. They ensure that all relevant information is taken into account, and in particular that people with severe medical conditions are dealt with sensitively.
The medical examination itself was developed with the help of a panel of 80 experts, drawn from the various medical disciplines and groups representing disabled people, to ensure that the method of determining someone's capacity for work was both reasonable and fair.
It is also important to emphasise that doctors who are employed by the Benefits Agency medical service are trained to very high standards. To be considered for employment, they must have clinical experience, and have skills in areas of medicine relevant to the assessment of incapacity. They must then pass a rigorous approval process, which involves four days of theoretical training followed by a written exam. Newly approved doctors are supervised during their first four assessments to ensure that they are able to perform to the required standard.
We have taken great care in the design of procedures to determine incapacity for work, and to ensure that those applying the procedures have the right training and
948
experience. I should like to explain briefly how the process works. I hope that that will reassure the hon. Gentlemen and his constituents.
In order to claim incapacity benefit, a person must supply medical evidence from his or her general practitioner. If sickness continues beyond 28 weeks, consideration is given to whether a medical examination is necessary to confirm continuing incapacity or whether the condition is so severe that a medical examination is not required.
The effects on individuals of medical conditions such as heart disease can vary from mild to very severe. An individual medical examination will therefore be required in most cases. However, a number of conditions are such that it would be unreasonable to expect the person concerned to be capable of work—for example, severe learning disabilities or severe mental illness.
If the medical certificate from the general practitioner indicates that the claimant may be suffering from such a condition, the Benefits Agency will obtain a full report from that GP, and ask for advice from a Benefits Agency medical service doctor, who will have been specially trained and approved in the way I described. The doctor will provide advice on whether the claimant's condition falls into an exempt group, in which case benefit will be awarded without the need for an examination. It is relevant to note that the majority of people who have recovered after a heart attack will not be in such a category.
Mr. Llew Smith: The Minister said that people with severe conditions would not be expected to work again, or to return for continual medical examinations. I accept that, but how much more severe could David's condition have been? His consultant told him that, if he worked again, he would not survive—he said that that was it; that was the end. He was not speaking in isolation. David saw three other doctors, and the outlook was considered to be equally gloomy.
Mr. Burt: If the hon. Gentleman will allow me, I shall come to the circumstances of Mr. Holmes's examination later.
During the development of the incapacity benefit, Ministers wanted to ensure that people with severe medical conditions would not be put through a medical examination. A limited number of circumstances were subsequently identified in which the severity of the person's functional limitations would be beyond doubt, such that they would clearly be incapable of work.
The criteria used for determining those categories were, first, that the person was suffering from one of the most severe medical conditions, such as severe heart and lung disease or severe mental illness; secondly, that recovery or improvement in the condition could not be expected; and thirdly, that there could be no doubt that all persons suffering from the condition would be functionally incapable of work.
If the claimant is not suffering from one of the exempted conditions, further evidence is obtained before he is invited to attend a medical examination. He will be asked to complete a questionnaire, in which he can give his own account of how his condition affects him. At the same time, he is asked to obtain a further statement from his own doctor, who can provide more details of his own

949
diagnosis of his patient's condition. The claimant's doctor is asked to provide factual clinical information on the medical condition. That information will help the Benefits Agency to decide whether a medical examination is necessary.
We have taken particular care over the design of the method of examining claimants to establish their capacity for work, and we have provided examining doctors with comprehensive guidance. The examining doctor will begin by asking the claimant about the history of the illness and about everyday activities relevant to the claimant's condition, after which he will conduct an examination.
The doctor will consider all the information and exercise clinical judgment to reach an opinion on the nature and effects of the medical condition. Full account is taken of factors such as pain, fatigue and breathlessness and the possible variability of the condition. If someone can, for example, perform a particular activity only by incurring a considerable degree of pain or breathlessness, he will be assessed as incapable of performing that activity. The doctor will also consider the effects of that condition over time, so that the opinion will not be based on a snapshot picture of the claimant's condition on the day of examination.
In the case of heart disease, the doctor will obtain, in particular, details of any walking restrictions caused by breathlessness and chest pain. The examination will concentrate on looking for evidence of complications of the disease—either angina or heart failure. The doctor will then prepare a comprehensive report for an adjudication officer—an officer appointed by the Secretary of State to determine entitlement to benefit independently of Ministers and departmental officials.
The adjudication officer decides, on the basis of all the evidence available, whether the claimant should be treated as incapable of work. In doing so, he will take full account of any reported pain, fatigue or variability caused by the claimant's medical problem. He must also take account of evidence provided by the claimant and the claimant's doctor.
A further important safeguard is built into the all-work test arrangements. We realised from our work in developing the test that there are a minority of claimants who are clearly incapable of work, but who would fail the test because their current condition causes only limited functional impairment. The hon. Gentleman referred particularly to the type of test in which someone would score only seven points but clearly would be incapable of work. Therefore, regulations specify that people who fail the test shall be treated as incapable of work if one of the prescribed exceptional circumstances applies.
The exceptional circumstances apply if, for example, the person is found to be suffering from a previously undiagnosed life-threatening condition, or if his medical condition cannot be controlled by medication. Benefits Agency doctors are required to consider at every examination whether those conditions apply, and the procedure provides an additional check for people who otherwise would fail the all-work test.
Turning specifically to Mr. Holmes's case, the investigation by the Benefits Agency shows that there was nothing improper in the application of those arrangements. Full and expert consideration was given to whether he was suffering from any one of the exempt conditions, and it was concluded that he was not.
950
Mr. Holmes attended a medical examination on 14 October 1995. The examining doctor—who was an experienced doctor—completed a thorough report on his ability to perform the activities in the all-work test. There is no reason to doubt that the doctor considered all the evidence, including the history of heart disease, and that he carried out a full and proper assessment. He also concluded that, in his opinion, Mr. Holmes's condition did not fall within the specified exceptional circumstances.
I understand from my medical advisers that a person who had a heart attack 14 years ago would not necessarily be considered to be at a high risk of sudden death. Obviously, however, a full medical assessment has to be performed to take account of individual circumstances. On the basis of all the evidence, including the doctor's report, the adjudication officer decided that Mr. Holmes was no longer entitled to incapacity benefit.
Sadly, heart disease is all too common, and sudden death from heart disease is not uncommon, in people both with and without a previous history of the condition.
Mr. Smith: Does the Minister accept that those so-called "experts" had it wrong? Sadly, only a few days after they reached their conclusion, David died. Is it any wonder that, after David went to the examination, he wrote that it had been a waste of time, or that, in his letter to the Department of Social Security, he wrote that people were not listening?
Mr. Burt: On the latter point, it is not uncommon for people who are called for a medical test who have not been for one for a long time, and who—for whatever reason—do not enjoy the experience, to describe it in the terms used by Mr. Holmes. Others have described the medical test in the same terms.
I cannot answer the second point, on whether doctors should have noticed something.
I do not know whether there was anything that the doctors should have found that might have indicated a death to result within five days. Can the hon. Gentleman tell me of a medical technique to predict a death from heart disease within five days? If he can, perhaps we can incorporate it in the test.
I was saying that sudden death from heart disease is not uncommon. Such deaths cannot be accurately predicted by any known medical test, but all the evidence suggests that they are more likely to occur in the weeks immediately following a heart attack. A person who survives a heart attack by many years is at little greater risk of sudden death than the general population of his particular age and sex. Indeed, as we all know, most people with a history of heart disease, including some with angina, can, with modern medication, lead a relatively normal life.
While we all deeply regret the death of Mr. Holmes, from the information that we have we do not believe that it can be attributed to the application of the all-work test. I believe that the test is fair in principle, and I am confident that sufficient safeguards have been built into the process to ensure that it is applied properly and with due regard to the medical conditions and circumstances of those to whom it is applied.
I repeat my personal sorrow at the death of Mr. Holmes. In the light of everything that the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent has said this evening, I ask again whether

951
anything further could have been gleaned from all the information available to the doctor at the time he made his judgment on Mr. Holmes's health. All our investigations to date show that the nature of Mr. Holmes's condition could not have suggested that he would have died within a few days. If there was a test to predict that, or anything similar, everyone would obviously want to know. However, I shall go back to the doctors on the points that the hon. Gentleman has raised.
Mr. Smith: The Minister said that many applicants regarded the examination as a waste of time because they did not like the experience. That was not David's reason for saying that it was a waste of time. He said that because people were not listening to what he said about his condition. He was proved right, because, a few days later, he was dead. His reasons had nothing to do with the issues that the Minister has mentioned.
The Minister has asked me whether I know of a way to anticipate that someone was about to die if they returned to work. I do. It is fairly easy. Just speak to the people who were responsible for David—the medical team and the consultants who said that, if David returned to work,
952
history would repeat itself. Indeed, they said that the situation would be even more severe, and David would die. Those consultants was found to be right. David was found to be right. The doctors who examined him are guilty of disregarding David's condition.
Mr. Burt: I cannot offer a comment on what evidence the doctor who examined Mr. Holmes took into account. I believe that all the evidence that the hon. Gentleman has put to us tonight was available to the doctor when he made his judgment.
I do not believe that it is possible to predict the moment of death of someone with a condition such as that that Mr. Holmes had, nor is it possible to predict that it should happen so soon after an examination.
I accept what the hon. Gentleman says about Mr. Holmes's reasons for considering the test a waste of time. If that was his experience, he was entitled to refer to it in that way.
The motion having been made after Ten o'clock, and the debate having continued for half an hour, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at three minutes past Twelve midnight.

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS
  Northern Ireland Newspapers
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DEFENCE
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AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
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Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Coventry.

Lord Rogers of Riverside
Sir Richard George Rogers, Knight, having been created Baron Rogers of Riverside, of Chelsea in the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, for life—Was, in his robes, introduced between the Lord Rothschild and the Baroness Blackstone, and made the solemn Affirmation.

Overseas Development Assistance
2.48 p.m.
Lord Judd Lord Judd asked Her Majesty's Government:
What, in the light of the provisions made in the Budget, is their policy towards overseas development co-operation.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Chalker of Wallasey):The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Chalker of Wallasey): My Lords, the purpose of the UK development assistance programme will continue to be to improve the quality of life of people in poorer countries by contributing to sustainable development and reducing poverty and suffering.
Lord Judd: My Lords, does the Minister accept that we are sad that yet again, however the figures are juggled, she has been let down by an 8.4 per cent. cut in real terms in the aid programme after the severe cuts of last year? What now will really be the priorities? Why is only 27 per cent. of our bilateral aid programme devoted to the poorest countries? Why is only one-fifth of the programme spent on education and only 1 per cent. on primary education? What of last week's report on Indonesia by the National Audit Office? Why was not one of seven projects examined primarily for the benefit of the poor? Does the Minister accept that it is now essential to reassure taxpayers that the sadly declining aid budget is being used where it is most needed to fight poverty?
Baroness Chalker of Wallasey: My Lords, it might be helpful to everyone in your Lordships' House if we got some facts right. First of all, the reductions in the ODA budget are fully attributed to the lower forecasts of draw-down by the multilateral organisations, particularly the European Community. For some time the estimates from Brussels have been larger than the amounts paid. Secondly, our core programme has been guaranteed in this Budget for the next three years. The core programme is the part of the overseas development budget which we decide ourselves—in other words, the bilateral provision and the discretionary multilateral
578
programmes. We shall deliver no less than was planned. The poorest countries, those in Africa and Asia, receive about three-quarters of the bilateral budget. That is well above the average for all donors. Eight of the 10 biggest recipients were the poor countries in sub-Saharan Africa and South Asia. Therefore, the noble Lord is not right.
The noble Lord mentioned the NAO report. That was initiated to examine contracts between the UK and Indonesian Governments. It was clearly found that the primary reasons for supporting activities were developmental. That is right because more than 14 per cent. of Indonesia's population live in absolute poverty.
Lord Judd: My Lords, does the Minister agree that she has repeatedly complained to the House that she is unable to do bilaterally what she would like to do because of commitments to the European Union? Is it not a fact that when the aid programme was cut by £124 million last year the House was assured that it would increase by £47 million this year? Instead, there has been a further cut at a time when the Minister desperately needs funds for bilateral programmes. As for Indonesia, does she agree that the NAO has said that not one single project has been in the interests of the poor?
Baroness Chalker of Wallasey: My Lords, the NAO report states that the primary reasons for supporting the activities that were examined were developmental. As far as concerns the other matter referred to by the noble Lord, no promise was made to get back the £47 million.
Lord Redesdale: My Lords, if over the next three years the core funding for bilateral projects is to drop, is the Minister guaranteeing that the bilateral budget will drop over the next three years?
Baroness Chalker of Wallasey: My Lords, no. The noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, was not listening. The Chancellor has guaranteed that if non-discretionary spending exceeds the revised forecasts, the Exchequer will meet the bill. He has further guaranteed that the core programme—which we decide ourselves—is protected for the next three years.
The Lord Bishop of Coventry: My Lords, can the Minister inform the House whether the Government's decision to cut overseas aid, which was announced in the Budget in spite of the pleas of many of us, is compatible with their decision to join the programme announced by OECD nations in May 1996 to halve the number of people living in poverty, to reduce infant mortality by two thirds and to achieve universal primary education by 2015? That has been described as a strictly quantifiable and ambitious programme but one which is achievable.
Baroness Chalker of Wallasey: My Lords, we must view our programme in the light of what happens in aid programmes generally. In 1995 we provided 0.28 per cent. of our GNP for development assistance. That was above the average for all donors. Among the G7 countries we devoted a larger share of GNP than Japan, the US or Italy. There are only four OECD

579
members who meet the targets and all are countries with much smaller programmes than ours. We are doing our best to meet them, but none of the OECD countries has yet met the targets to which the right reverend Prelate has referred.
Lord Renton: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that in most of the countries that we are trying to help the overseas aid programme will fail unless they accept her splendid advice to try to do something about the problem of overpopulation?
Baroness Chalker of Wallasey: My Lords, my noble friend is right. I am pleased that since 1988 the percentage of our bilateral assistance allocable by sector which has been spent on health and population has doubled from 6 per cent. to 12 per cent. Last year the percentage spent on education was 18 per cent. We have good pipelines for health, population and education. I hope that they will increase as time goes by because they are at the heart of the problem of poverty from which far too many people in the world suffer.
The Earl of Sandwich: My Lords, is the Minister aware that at the present rate of decline next year our aid programme will be worth less than a farthing—a quarter of a penny—in the pound of our national wealth? How does she reconcile that with the OECD target that has already been mentioned? Does the Minister feel that proportionately too much aid is spent on emergency assistance at the expense of long-term development?
Baroness Chalker of Wallasey: My Lords, the emergency assistance to which the noble Earl has referred is provided for in the budgeting process, but that amount varies greatly. If there is a major call for emergency assistance, as in 1991, it is a matter that is not programmable. In that event, I can turn to the Treasury for assistance, as I did and as I received in 1991. As far as concerns the OECD targets, one of the matters on which that organisation is very keen is to increase combined private and official flows. The noble Earl may be aware that the target in that regard is 1 per cent. Britain achieved 1.15 per cent. in 1994. The attraction of private investment to these countries can do just as much as public investment, but their economies must be put in order first.

Helms-Burton Act
2.58 p.m.
Viscount Montgomery of Alamein Viscount Montgomery of Alamein asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they are satisfied that the proposed European Union initiative to counteract the adverse effects on international trade of the Helms-Burton Act is adequate.
Baroness Miller of Hendon: My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have been working closely with their
580
European partners to create a firm and effective response to the United States' Helms-Burton legislation which will protect our companies and trading interest. Her Majesty's Government believe that the current EU initiatives will provide a strong response to the US legislation and help to counteract adverse effects on international trade arising from Helms-Burton.
Viscount Montgomery of Alamein: My Lords, the Minister's Answer is quite encouraging. Can my noble friend ensure that the UK delegate and other EU colleagues who attend the WTO Summit in Singapore next week make the strongest possible objections to this extra-territorial legislation which runs totally contrary to the whole concept of improved world free trade?
Baroness Miller of Hendon: My Lords, we will be reaffirming with other countries in the WTO the primacy of the multilateral trade system and the rules on which it is based. We will be looking to ensure that the United Kingdom's objectives are reflected in the new work programme of the World Trade Organisation. The substance of the dispute settlement case will not be raised because that is subject to separate confidential procedures.
Lord Peston: My Lords, the noble Viscount is right that this is a disgraceful infringement of all that has happened with free trade in the 50 years since the war ended. It is most alarming that the USA, the country which took the lead in that, should be the one that now damages it in this way. Does the so-called EU initiative involve any sanctions against the USA if it proceeds, because as I understand it the USA is not backing down in any way? That means that it will damage some of our companies. Is it not time for us at least to intimate that we might act in a way that could damage one or two of its companies if it proceeds in that way?
Baroness Miller of Hendon: My Lords, the current initiatives about which I was talking include the recent announcement of the WTO dispute settlement panel, a European Community regulation, and joint action designed to counter the extra-territorial application of the legislation. The EC regulation is fairly tough, and I hope that the noble Lord will be satisfied. It obliges individuals and companies to inform the European Commission if their financial and economic interests are directly or indirectly affected by the operation of specified pieces of US legislation, which includes the Helms-Burton Act. There are other points to it, but that should reassure the noble Lord that we are doing all that is possible.
Baroness Young: My Lords, does my noble friend agree that now the American elections are behind us there might be an opportunity once again to raise directly with the American Government our very real concern, which is felt in all parts of the House, about the terrible effects that Helms-Burton is having, not just because of its extra-territorial aspects but because of its effects on individuals in Cuba itself?
Baroness Miller of Hendon: My Lords, I am pleased to be able to tell my noble friend that we shall continue to

581
make representations to the US Administration and Congress about the Helms-Burton Act, with the aim of having the Act repealed. In the shorter term, we shall be seeking a renewal of the suspension of the right to bring private cases under Title 3 of the Helms-Burton Act.
Lord Wright of Richmond: My Lords, is the Minister aware that there were 10 senators, no less than one tenth of the US Senate, in London two weeks ago? Was the opportunity taken to impress upon them the views of Her Majesty's Government about extra-territoriality and the Helms-Burton Act?
Baroness Miller of Hendon: My Lords, I am not sure whether that opportunity was taken. The last time I answered the noble Lord on this question I am afraid that I said that as I was not sure it was not appropriate to give him an answer. I shall find out. I shall write to the noble Lord and put a copy of the letter in the Library for all other interested noble Lords.
Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, is it the Government's view that the Helms-Burton Act is or is not lawful under international law?
Baroness Miller of Hendon: My Lords, we very much hope that the panel will find that the US action is inconsistent with her obligations under international trade rules. The case is complex and that is the very best answer I can give at this time.
Viscount Waverley: My Lords, is the Minister aware of the depth of opinion against the approach of the United States by all Latin and Caribbean states, including Mexico and Canada?
Baroness Miller of Hendon: My Lords, yes, and I am aware of the feeling of this House.
Lord Taylor of Gryfe: My Lords, while I agree with all that has been said this afternoon, have any representations been made to Fidel Castro to improve his human rights record, which might enable us to make considerable progress in abolishing this undesirable Act?
Baroness Miller of Hendon: My Lords, we are doing our very best to ensure that the Cuban position on human rights, and everything in that order, is done. This country and Europe believe that continuing with trade and relations is the best way to ensure that human rights eventually prevail in Cuba.

Building Society Share Distribution Schemes
3.5 p.m.
Lord Ewing of Kirkford Lord Ewing of Kirkford asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they will make representations to building societies in the process of converting to banks regarding free share issues in respect of accounts
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where the first name on the account is acting for a person whose medical condition prevents them from acting for themselves.
The Minister of State, Department of Social Security (Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish): My Lords, although under building society schemes account holders who are first-named generally receive shares from a distribution, those who manage accounts on behalf of others are accountable to them for the distribution which they receive. Societies and their members decide, and vote on, the distribution scheme which is adopted, and they decide on who benefits from it. The Building Societies Act gives them a degree of discretion in the form which schemes can take.
Lord Ewing of Kirkford: My Lords, is the Minister aware that he has not answered my Question, in the sense that I am asking whether the Government have made any representations on this matter to the building societies? Is he further aware that I am grateful to Alistair Burt, the Minister for the Disabled, Angela Knight, the Treasury Minister in another place, and Tom Clarke, the Shadow Minister for the Disabled, for the representations they have made, as this matter relates almost entirely to people suffering from mental illness or mental handicap, or who have learning difficulties, where the first name on the account is usually the charge nurse in the establishment where these people reside? There are cases where one charge nurse is the first name on upwards of 30 accounts. The building societies are saying that they can have only one allocation of shares. Does the Minister accept that this is neither a political nor a financial matter, but a moral matter? It is wholly wrong of the Alliance and Leicester and the Halifax Building Societies to treat these unfortunate people in this immoral way.
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for what he said about my honourable friend Mr. Alistair Burt, who has indeed met building society representatives on this issue. The issue is a bit more complex than at first appears. Many other accounts are held jointly with first names and subsequent names; for example, husband and wife, father and child, and grandfather and grandchild. Indeed it may be even the local club secretary and the club. The existing Building Societies Act allows societies to devise a variety of schemes involving, for instance, making a payout to each member, a payout for each account, and a payout for each name on an account, through the first-named account member. It is for the building societies themselves to decide which scheme they feel is most appropriate, and, of course, for the building society members to decide.
Lord Taylor of Blackburn: My Lords, have any discussions been held by any government departments with the Court of Protection on this matter?
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, I am aware, as I said, that disability unit officials have talked to the building societies, as has my honourable friend

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Mr. Alistair Burt. I cannot answer the question that the noble Lord asked. Perhaps I may add that ultimately of course whether or not this is discrimination under the terms of the Disability Discrimination Act will be a matter for the courts to judge.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, I declare an interest as a former director of the Woolwich. Is my noble friend aware of the great concern felt at the moment by building societies which have already declared that they intend to convert? This is one of the many problems that they should consider. They are concerned about the uncertainty surrounding the law and their future after conversion. It is having an inhibiting effect. I am sure that he will have seen that in the financial press.
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, I appreciate what my noble friend has said. My understanding is that all the converting societies have taken advice from learned counsel. They have been advised that what they are doing is not against the law. But, as I said a moment ago, that will of course ultimately have to be tested in the courts. As I think I said, my honourable friend Mr. Burt is concerned about this matter. One of the problems is that many of these processes started before this week, which is when the Disability Discrimination Act has, at least in part, come into effect.
Lord Rix: My Lords, will the Minister confirm that meaningful talks are taking place between the building societies concerned and a number of voluntary organisations, including MENCAP, with the view to sorting out the problem? Will he also confirm that he will encourage a solution to be found?
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, I am pleased to hear that talks are taking place between the building societies and the organisations representing mentally handicapped and mentally ill people. As I have indicated, my honourable friend has also had discussions with them. I do not believe that the building societies can be in too much doubt about the feelings of many people on this issue.
Lord Addington: My Lords, does the Minister agree that a case of such legal complexity provides an example of where a more vigorous campaigning legal body might have been beneficially introduced under the Disability Discrimination Act as opposed to the rather weaker body which was introduced?
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, no matter how vigorous a body is it cannot act other than inside the law. I believe that the noble Lord's question invites me to suggest that organisations should be empowered to act outwith the law and I do not agree with that. The law in the Disability Discrimination Act is quite clear. As I said, ultimately, this matter may be for the courts to test.
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, within Parliament we have rules of hybridity which deal with those in the
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same class being treated differently. Does my noble friend agree that this is not a matter of disability discrimination but of general discrimination?
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, the matter is good deal more complicated. One of the principles of mutuality, which is the basis on which many building societies were founded, is that the rights are conferred on members on the basis of one member one vote and not on the basis of the number of accounts held. That is perhaps why the position is that no matter how many accounts are held and for whatever reason—that is perhaps why I answered in the way I did—a person can be considered only once as a member, once as a vote and, as the building societies have developed their schemes, once with regard to any distribution.
Lord Dubs: My Lords, does the Minister agree that there is a tremendous sense of unfairness on the part of second-named account holders which runs through the whole of this business? It is difficult for people to understand why, when we have tight regulation in the financial services generally, the Government should adopt such a laissez-faire attitude towards building societies, allowing them to treat people in a way which is not just.
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, I believed that I answered that question with regard to the principle of mutuality. If the noble Lord is inviting government to interfere in private sector companies and to change the laws of mutuality, I shall resist that invitation.
Lady Kinloss: My Lords, is there a provision in the Building Societies Act which prevents a building society from making a bonus payment to account holders who are not members of the society?
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, as I indicated in an earlier answer, it is up to the building societies to decide which scheme is most appropriate.

BSE: Selective Cull
3.13 p.m.
Lord Carter Lord Carter asked Her Majesty's Government:
What is the latest assessment of the number of cattle required to be slaughtered for a BSE selective slaughter scheme to be successful.
Lord Lucas: My Lords, the estimate given at Florence for the maximum number of animals to be slaughtered under a selective slaughter scheme was 128,000. No more recent estimate is available. Whether such a scheme might be regarded by the noble Lord as successful would depend on, among other things, his definition of success.
Lord Carter: My Lords, is the Minister aware that on 4th July his right honourable friend the Prime

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Minister, in reply to a question from the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Tony Blair, said of a slaughter scheme that there are:
"two fundamental reasons why the policy is necessary. The first is to ensure public health".—[Official Report, Commons, 4/7/96; col. 1049.]?
At the end of that reply he also referred to the need to deal with the matter in the interests of public health. If, according to the Prime Minister, there was a fundamental public health requirement to introduce this scheme why have the Government done nothing since April when they first announced it?
Lord Lucas: My Lords, I do not have with me the particular quotation with which the noble Lord has enlivened the House. However, from all that has been said of the selective slaughter scheme it is clear that it has no public health implications. We in this country are dealing with a situation in which no possibly infected material does or can reach the consumers. Slaughtering animals early may have the advantage of allowing the European Union to relax its restrictions, but as far as I am aware the procedure has no other possible advantage.
Lord Peyton of Yeovil: My Lords, does my noble friend agree that British beef is now at least as safe as any other beef in Europe? That being the case, if neither the Commission nor the member states have yet been able to produce a definite number or a date by which the ban can be suspended, does he also agree that to continue the cull would be both pointless and cruel?
Lord Lucas: My Lords, I entirely agree with what my noble friend said at the beginning of his question. British beef is safe and certainly as safe as beef from any other country in Europe. However, whether or not to undertake the selective cull is a matter of fine judgment. If we undertake it we shall be putting our partners on the spot; we shall have complied with all the five points agreed at Florence and it will be up to them to carry out their part of the bargain. If my noble friend has doubts about whether our partners will do that, so do I.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, does the Minister agree that the selective cull, together with the newly introduced scheme for killing dairy cross-beef cows, will in a very short time lead to a dearth of beef in this country? What is to happen about imported beef, upon which we must rely if we continue to eat beef, in order to ensure that it meets the health standards of this country?
Lord Lucas: My Lords, there is very little that we can do that we do not do already to make sure that beef coming into this country meets the proper health standards.
Lord Hylton: My Lords, can the Minister tell the House how many cattle have so far been slaughtered under the various schemes? Does he agree that the eradication of BSE is the objective?
Lord Lucas: My Lords, I entirely agree with the noble Lord's second point. Under the over 30 months
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scheme we have slaughtered about 1 million cattle. All the predictions are that following that course we will see the end of the disease for all practical purposes by about the year 2001.
Lord Carter: My Lords, in reply to my first supplementary question, the Minister said that there is no public health implication. I quoted the Prime Minister saying on 4th July that the fundamental reason was to ensure public health. Whom do we believe, the Prime Minister or the noble Lord?
Lord Lucas: My Lords, one would always believe the Prime Minister. I do not have the particular quotation that the noble Lord gave and therefore I do not have its context. I can give the noble Lord only my understanding, which is certainly junior to that of the Prime Minister.

Business
3.18 p.m.
Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, at a convenient moment after 3.30 p.m. my noble friend Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish will, with the leave of the House, repeat a Statement that is to be made in another place on ECOFIN.

Sea Fisheries (Shellfish) (Amendment) Bill [H.L.]
Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to make provision for fisheries for lobsters and other crustaceans. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a first time.—(Baroness Wilcox.)
On Question, Bill read a first time, and ordered to be printed.

Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Bill
The Lord Advocate (Lord Mackay of Drumadoon): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. This Bill is the first of a package of four Bills standing on the Order Paper in my name. With the leave of the House, I shall speak briefly to all four together and then remove the remaining Bills formally.
The purpose of the four Bills is to consolidate legislation on town and country planning in Scotland. The legislation was last consolidated in 1972. Each of the Bills incorporates amendments to give effect to recommendations of the Scottish Law Commission which are intended to remove certain minor anomalies in the existing law.

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The Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Bill is the largest of the four measures. In consolidating enactments relating to town and country planning in Scotland, it seeks to restructure and clarify existing legislation. The Planning (Listed Buildings and Conservation Areas)(Scotland) Bill consolidates enactments relating to special controls in respect of buildings and areas of special architectural or historic interest. The Planning (Hazardous Substances)(Scotland) Bill consolidates enactments relating to special controls in respect of hazardous substances. Finally, the Planning (Consequential Provisions) (Scotland) Bill deals with the repeals, consequential amendments, transitional matters and savings which are consequential on the consolidation package.
This consolidation package runs in total to some 407 sections and 25 schedules. It is a considerable testimony to the industry, painstaking application and skill of the draftsman. His considerable efforts have not just brought together the Scottish legislation and town and country planning and related topics. They have added a much needed restructuring and coherence to the Scottish planning code. I am sure that the whole House will welcome the efforts that he has made which will also be welcomed by all those involved in planning in Scotland—those who seek planning permission, local authority officials, planning experts and lawyers and reporters within the Scottish Office Inquiry Reporters Unit.
It is also notable that no fewer than 43 separate recommendations by the Scottish Law Commission for the resolution of inconsistencies and anomalies were initiated by this process of consolidation. The Scottish Law Commission is to be commended for its efforts in assisting with this important piece of consolidation.
In my submission, these legislative measures are worthy and extremely beneficial. I commend the Bills to your Lordships. If your Lordships are content to give all four Bills a Second Reading, they will be referred in the usual way to the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills. In the case of the fourth Bill, the Planning (Consequential Provisions)(Scotland) Bill, which is not itself a consolidation Bill but which contains sweeping-up provisions consequential on the other three Bills, there is a Motion in my name on the Order Paper that this Bill should also be reserved to the Joint Committee. I commend the Bills to your Lordships.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time—(Lord Mackay of Drutnadoon.)
Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove: My Lords, I welcome the Bill and thank the noble and learned Lord for his explanations. There is general agreement that the package is beneficial, but perhaps it is only fair to mention the fact that I have had representations from the Scottish Law Society. The noble and learned Lord will be aware that the society has been most helpful to us in our deliberations in this House. Indeed, we have received many helpful suggestions from the society which the Government have taken up.
Although the Law Society agrees that the measures will considerably improve the structure of planning law, it feels that it would have been better if a little more
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time had been allowed for pre-legislative consultation, considering the fact that the committees were meeting during a holiday period. Therefore, it was a little more difficult to have quite as much time to consider the very complicated provisions in the Bill. Of course, I am speaking about people who face the problems of planning on a daily basis. As I am sure the noble and learned Lord knows, they can make a contribution. However, having said that, I hope that the noble and learned Lord will take note of what I have said, and that perhaps in, say, another 10 years or so when we have another Bill, a great deal more time will be given to pre-legislative discussions.
Lord Mackay of Drumadoon: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his support for the Bills. I was mildly surprised to hear about the Law Society's observations which may, to some extent, proceed on a misunderstanding of the purpose of the legislation which is primarily to consolidate existing legislation, not to amend the law. However, my officials will take account of those concerns and, if appropriate, some cognizance will be taken of them in the future.
On Question, Bill read a second time, and referred to the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills.

Planning (Listed Buildings and Conservation Areas) (Scotland) Bill [H.L.]
Lord Mackay of Drumadoon: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, that the Bill be now read a second time.—(Lord Mackay of Drumadoon.)
On Question, Bill read a second time, and referred to the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills.

Planning (Hazardous Substances) (Scotland) Bill [H.L.]
Lord Mackay of Drumadoon: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, that the Bill be now read a second time.—(Lord Mackay of Drumadoon.)
On Question, Bill read a second time, and referred to the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills.

Planning (Consequential Provisions) (Scotland) Bill [H.L.]
Lord Mackay of Drumadoon: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time.—(Lord Mackay of Drumadoon.)
On Question, Bill read a second time.
Lord Mackay of Drumadoon: My Lords, I beg to move that the Planning (Consequential Provisions) (Scotland) Bill be referred to the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills.

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Moved, That the Bill be referred to the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills.—(Lord Mackay of Drumadoon.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and it was ordered that a Message be sent to the Commons to seek their concurrence thereto.

Scottish Borders Council (Jim Clark Memorial Rally) Order Confirmation Bill
Considered on Report.
Western Isles Council (Berneray Causeway) Order Confirmation Bill
Considered on Report.
Horserace Totalisator Board Bill [H.L.]
Report received.

National Health Service (Primary Care) Bill [H.L.]
3.26 p.m.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Baroness Cumberlege): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. The Bill provides legislative powers to allow a number of important developments in primary care. Before turning to these in detail, I should like to say a few words about the genesis of the Bill.
This nation's primary care has been described as the jewel in the crown of the National Health Service. This is not just hyperbole. Other countries have looked with envy at our system, with its emphasis on a direct lasting relationship between patient and healthcare professional, local accessibility and high standards. General practice, general dental practice, community pharmacy, optometry and community nursing are among the health services that we most frequently use. We rely on them to be there when we need them.
Over the last decade as the Government have invested heavily there have been significant improvements in the range and quality of primary care. The NHS has more GPs, working with more nurses and therapists than ever before, and there has been an unprecedented investment in premises. We have seen the introduction of hospital at home schemes which allow people to leave hospital and return home quickly if that is their wish. We have seen sophisticated equipment such as ultra-sound made available in surgeries and health centres enabling GPs to undertake diagnostic procedures unthinkable 10 years ago, and specialist clinics for diabetes, asthma and other conditions provide for high quality care near to people's homes. NHS dentistry has also continued to grow steadily, and the role of pharmacists has gained in importance.
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The introduction of GP fundholding has been pivotal in changing the relationship between primary and secondary care. It has allowed GPs, both fundholders and non-fundholders, to use their knowledge of their practice population to improve efficiency and provide services which are responsive to the needs of the people they serve.
Although the current national arrangements have served most people remarkably well, they have proved too inflexible to tackle some of the specific local problems, such as low standards of general practice in some inner-city areas or poor availability of general dental services in parts of the country. Nor, by its very nature, can a national system be tailored to tackle the health needs and priorities of very different communities. Wick, Widnes and Worthing are all very different. Aural health in wrinkly Worthing means adjustment to hearing aids; oral health in Wick means preventing dental decay in children.
In the past 16 months Ministers have carried out a listening exercise with all those involved in primary care. The principles of quality, fairness, accessibility, responsiveness and efficiency were identified as being at its heart—principles common to the whole NHS and which we embodied in the White Papers, Primary Care: the Future and, more recently, A Service with Ambitions.
Along with these principles there was a strong wish for more local flexibility so that services can be delivered in a way which meets local needs and circumstances. Increased flexibility could allow services to be organised differently to meet different health needs; it could provide greater opportunities for professionals to use their skills to the full; and it could provide for employment and contractual arrangements to meet the changing needs of a modern workforce.
The Government have listened and our response is set out in the White Paper, Choice and Opportunity, which we published on 15th October. The National Health Service (Primary Care) Bill takes forward the proposals in the White Paper and it establishes the voluntary principle in trying out new schemes. No one will be forced to take part in any pilot scheme and those who do will be protected by the Bill's provisions should they wish to return to national arrangements.
Let me now turn to the contents of the Bill and to our proposals for greater flexibility in medical and dental services. The Bill offers no blueprint; rather it acknowledges that different local needs call for different local solutions. It provides a legal framework within which medical and dental practitioners can work with health authorities and boards to develop new ways of delivering primary care. These new arrangements will be developed through local contracts between purchasers of services, health authorities and boards and the providers of those services. Clause 1 refers to these new arrangements as "personal medical services" and "personal dental services".
The White Paper sets out a number of key principles on how the new arrangements should be taken forward. These are that participation should be voluntary; no doctor or dentist should be required to take part. The new arrangements should be piloted and evaluated

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before being extended more widely. Proposals should emerge from those working on the ground after local discussion: we do not want to impose from the centre. Local flexibility should be balanced by national safeguards for patients and practitioners. In particular, patients must retain the right to be registered with a GP and be able to choose their GP and dentist. This should safeguard the essential character of British general practice, based on a relationship between individuals and their GP. Finally, the Bill allows for those in pilots who wish to return to the existing system to be able to do so.
The commitment to piloting is crucial. The whole of Part I of the Bill therefore sets out a legal framework under which pilot schemes will be set up and run. Our aim is to allow local initiatives to flourish within a framework of appropriate controls. We need to safeguard the interests of patients and provide stability so that medical and dental practitioners can continue to provide high quality services.
Clauses 2, 3 and 4 set out the application and approval process for pilot schemes. Clause 2 enables GPs, dentists and NHS trusts to make proposals for pilot schemes and, so long as the proposals are correctly prepared, requires health authorities and boards to submit them to the Secretary of State for approval. Pilot proposals put forward by others will be considered by health authorities and boards, which will decide whether or not to submit them to the Secretary of State.
The potential variety and scope of pilot schemes is very wide. For GPs, they might involve practice-based contracts, recognising the important part which nurses and therapists play within the primary healthcare team. They may involve a GP practice having a contract for much the same range of services as it already provides under existing arrangements but with a number of additional services—say, increased hospital at home schemes—built in. Alternatively, it could involve GPs working as salaried employees, freeing them from the task of running a practice to concentrate on their clinical work. This option may be an attractive and effective way of securing better general medical services in some inner-city areas where GPs have sometimes been reluctant to set up a practice partnership.
The nursing profession already plays a major and growing part in the delivery of primary care. We want to encourage that trend and also greater integration of the different primary healthcare professions. Our proposals will enable nurses to develop proposals with GPs which include a range of services in which they take a lead, such as child health clinics or monitoring of asthma.
For dentistry, applications for pilot schemes might propose contracts which pay dental practitioners to bring the oral health of the people on their list up to a certain standard and then to maintain it, instead of offering a range of individual item of service payments, as under present arrangements. They might also involve special initiatives and incentives to encourage the registration and treatment of additional patients in areas where there is poor access to services.
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There has been a lot of chatter about the possibility of GP services being provided by supermarkets. That is no doubt a good story, but it is time to bring speculation down to earth. To the best of my knowledge, no supermarket has shown any interest, so the speculation we have seen misses the point. The skills and expertise needed to provide excellence in primary care do not lie outside the NHS but within it, with those who are already delivering services. The Bill's provisions give them the opportunity to do more and to do it better. I am confident that they will seize it with both hands.
Clause 3 requires the Secretary of State either to approve pilot schemes, to approve them with modifications or to reject them. In reaching his decision, the Secretary of State will consider the potential benefits in terms of the quality of services to patients, the extent to which pilot schemes tackle local needs and the value for money which they offer. He will also take into account the outcome of the consultation on proposals which under Clause 2 he can require health authorities and boards to undertake.
I wish to stress that the innovative proposals we seek cannot be squeezed out of unwilling practitioners. Willing volunteers are a critical feature of pilot schemes. We appreciate that in many cases the existing arrangements substantially meet both the needs of patients and the needs of medical and dental practitioners and remain the best way of delivering services. The Bill therefore leaves intact the legislation, in Part II of the National Health Service Act 1977 and the National Health Service (Scotland) Act 1978, under which general medical and dental services are delivered. To put the matter beyond doubt, the Bill also contains provisions in Clauses 3 and 4 spelling out the right of practitioners to withdraw from new contractual arrangements either before or after pilot schemes are implemented.
Once a pilot scheme is approved by the Secretary of State, the providers and the relevant health authority or board will draw up local contracts under which services are to be delivered and to prepare for implementation. Clause 13 allows providers of services to apply to the Secretary of State for recognition as "health service bodies" within the meaning of the National Health Service and Community Care Act 1990. This will allow them to make NHS contracts with health authorities and boards. The advantage of these contracts is that they provide for the resolution of disputes by the Secretary of State, avoiding potentially expensive and time-consuming court cases. The option of ordinary contracts will, however, be available for those providers who would prefer it.
The Bill includes important provisions to ensure that pilot schemes are implemented effectively, operate according to plan and are of the highest clinical standards. Clause 14 gives the Secretary of State powers to require health authorities and boards to make funding available for the preparatory work. This will ensure that proper preparations are made for implementation and there is no disruption in services for patients during the changeover. Subject to Royal Assent, we plan for the first pilot schemes to come into operation on 1st April 1998.

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Clause 6 gives the Secretary of State powers to specify the circumstances where schemes may be varied without requiring the Secretary of State's authorisation, and also to terminate schemes. This is a reserve power and would allow the Secretary of State to stop a scheme in an emergency, for example where services were shown clearly to be unsatisfactory. Under Clause 7, the Secretary of State will also have the broad direction-making powers in relation to pilot schemes that he has for other NHS services.
Clause 5 requires the Secretary of State to undertake a review of each pilot. We clearly want to learn lessons from the schemes and the process of evaluation and review will allow us to establish what has worked well and what could work better. The clause gives participants an opportunity to comment on the evaluation.
Part I of the Bill also includes a number of provisions relating specifically to either medical or dental practitioners. Clause 9 provides that a medical practitioner who performs personal medical services in a pilot must be suitably experienced. It ensures that the definition of suitable experience that applies to those providing general medical services now will also apply to those who will perform personal medical services in the future. This will help to safeguard consistent standards of training and experience. For dentists, directions to health authorities and boards will ensure that contracts are made only with those with appropriate training and experience.
Clause 10 requires medical practitioners who transfer from the national arrangements to new ones through pilot schemes to leave the medical list of the relevant health authority. This will ensure that there is no scope for confusion as to which system they are working in. However, Clause 11 enables the Secretary of State to provide for these GPs to have a right of return to a medical list should they wish to do so. This is a further important expression of the voluntary nature of the new arrangements. No equivalent provision is needed for dental practitioners, as they continue to be entitled to join a health authority list so long as they have the appropriate qualifications.
Clause 15 allows medical practitioners performing personal medical services to apply for recognition as a fundholding practice in much the same way as GPs can apply to become fundholders under the existing national arrangements. We have all seen the benefits of fundholding, which has enabled GPs to purchase certain hospital and community services for their patients. There is every reason for allowing those benefits to extend to the patients of medical practitioners who in the future provide personal medical services. The Bill will extend provisions in the NHS Act on dispensing doctors to medical practitioners working in pilots. We intend to make sure that existing rules on such dispensing apply to pilot schemes as well as the current system.
Clause 16 allows the Secretary of State to make regulations setting a tariff of charges to be paid by patients receiving dental treatment under pilot schemes. It is only right that those who receive the treatment
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under new schemes should pay exactly the same and be eligible for the same exemptions from charges. Clause 16 explicitly ties charges in the new regime to those which apply under the current arrangements.
I have spoken so far of arrangements for piloting new ways of delivering medical and dental services within primary care. It is likely that over time certain kinds of new contractual arrangements will become established with proven success. These arrangements will no longer need to be authorised by the Secretary of State. The first part of Part II of the Bill provides for arrangements to be made without the Secretary of State having to authorise each one. Of course permanent arrangements should be introduced only after pilot schemes have been found to work. Clause 17 sets out this relationship between pilots and more permanent schemes. It effectively prohibits the Secretary of State from making an order bringing the clause covering permanent schemes into force until he is satisfied that the arrangements are workable and in the best interests of patients. This is a clear confirmation of our intention not to rush ahead with the introduction of new arrangements but to allow them to develop gradually, through voluntary participation.
While the more permanent arrangements will not need to be authorised by the Secretary of State, the Bill enables him to govern the way such schemes are to be set up and conducted. In particular, Clause 18 gives the Secretary of State powers to make regulations setting the scope and the rules on matters such as consultation, the variation and determination of schemes, and the right of return to medical lists.
The firm intention is that the rules governing these more permanent arrangements should be based closely on those which I have described for pilot schemes, so that the permanent arrangement is in all respects a natural progression from the pilot. One of the provisions of Clause 18 requires regulations to ensure providers of services can withdraw from a more permanent arrangement if they wish—a further expression of the voluntary nature of the new arrangements.
Part II of the Bill also contains provisions which relate to both pilot schemes and the more permanent arrangements. Clauses 19 and 20 extend the existing rights of patients, enshrined in the 1977 and 1978 Acts, to choose their medical and dental practitioner. Right of choice will apply to services provided under existing arrangements and to services provided under pilot schemes or to the more permanent arrangements. Clause 19 also provides that where a patient is unable to find a medical practitioner health authorities and boards will continue to have a duty to find one who is operating either under the existing arrangements or under the new ones. The provisions will ensure that the flexibilities we are permitting will not undermine the existing rights that patients enjoy in the NHS, nor lead to some patients being treated according to different rules.
I have concentrated so far on the provisions setting out new flexibilities for medical and dental practitioners. I should now like to turn to the provisions which deal with services provided by community pharmacists and optometrists.

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The core service provided by pharmacists is the dispensing of prescriptions. However, in addition they can provide a range of other services, many of which are best managed locally. These services include the provision of advice on the safe keeping and storage of medicines in residential and nursing homes or the matching of opening hours to patient needs. At present these services have to be prescribed in national regulations. This means that health authorities and boards cannot tailor the services they purchase to local needs. Clauses 23 and 24 provide for health authorities and boards to have much greater control over additional pharmaceutical services. We shall of course ensure that again, as now, consultations are held with the appropriate bodies.
A further important flexibility provided by Clause 24 is to allow a health authority or board to purchase services from a pharmacy in another health authority or board area. It is already possible for a patient to take a prescription to a pharmacy in another health authority—indeed, it may be his nearest pharmacy. At present though the pharmacist could not be asked to deliver oxygen to that patient's home. The Bill removes that anomaly.
Finally, Clause 26 will give NHS contract status to certain agreements which health authorities or boards may make with both pharmacists and optometrists. This will allow arbitration by the Secretary of State in the event of disputes and should make these arrangements more attractive to health authorities and boards.
I turn now to Clause 27 of the Bill, which amends the 1977 Act to provide for changes in the appointment procedures for GPs. The changes deal with a number of long-standing anomalies in current arrangements and implement one of the recommendations in the Chief Medical Officer's report, Maintaining Medical Excellence.
The existing legislation requires that a GP vacancy is declared by the Medical Practices Committee, the post is then advertised, a selection is made by the health authority or board and the doctor is then admitted to the authority's or board's medical list by the Medical Practices Committee. The legislation does not, however, provide for all the circumstances which can now arise. It does not, for example, provide for the appointment of partners; nor does it prevent unsuitable applicants being appointed to vacancies.
New provisions under Clause 27 will provide for the appointment of medical practitioners to single-handed and partnership vacancies and ensure that unsuitable candidates do not have to be selected. Under these procedures, an application will be made to the Medical Practices Committee by the health authority or board to identify that a vacancy exists. That is similar to current procedures. The post will then be advertised and a suitable candidate will be selected. Where no suitable candidate is found, health authorities and boards will no longer have to appoint the least unsuitable candidate. Where the vacancy is for a partner, the selection process will be undertaken by the partner or partners in the practice where the vacancy has arisen. Finally, the
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health authority or board will admit the selected candidate to the list of medical practitioners who provide general medical services in their area. In the case of partnership selections, the authority or board will endorse the selection before admitting the medical practitioner to the list. This will provide for more open and fair appointment procedures while at the same time streamlining processes.
I turn finally to Clause 30. This amends Section 97 of the 1977 Act to simplify the arrangements for allocating funds to health authorities. In doing so it also provides for cash limited payments to be made where GPs and health authorities agree local developments to existing general medical services in line with local needs. Such payments might, for example, be made where GPs develop local services for mentally ill people which meet an agreed local need. This provides an avenue for GP practices to develop local services without entering into new pilot forms of contract where this would not be suitable in the circumstances.
I hope I have been clear in setting out what the Bill seeks to achieve. This is, in the best sense of the word, an enabling measure. It has been welcomed by the professional associations and the NHS. It will enable practitioners who feel constrained by current national arrangements to develop new ways of providing services which make better use of their skills and experience. It will enable health authorities and boards to target local primary healthcare needs more effectively. It will enable those who wish to continue providing high quality services under existing arrangements to do so. It provides a framework for us to proceed gradually, through appropriate piloting, and to learn as we go, so that we retain the best in existing primary care and build on it.
This Bill opens the door for further improvements in our primary healthcare services. I commend it to your Lordships.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time.—(Baroness Cumberlege.)
3.50 p.m.
Baroness Jay of Paddington: My Lords, first I thank the Minister for introducing this important and, if I may say so, somewhat surprising Bill with great clarity. No one on these Benches disagrees with the ambition of creating a health service which is primary care centred, if not in the immediate term primary care led. That is, after all, the basis of the proposals for local commissioning groups which my honourable friend Christopher Smith introduced this morning. It is obviously in the best interests of all patients to give overall priority to those personal services—the family doctor, the local dentist, the health visitor and the local pharmacy—which we all use regularly. They are, after all, most people's most frequent contacts with the NHS. We therefore welcome the principle of seeking to improve these frontline services and there is undoubtedly cause for concern and need for improvement in the state of primary care at the moment.

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Traditionally, the family doctor has provided the secure foundation stone of excellent care in the NHS, yet today the British Medical Association describes the GP service as,
"gripped by low morale and a crisis in recruitment".
This afternoon the Minister spoke of using the Bill before us to build on the successes of GP fundholding, but in our view it is precisely the introduction of individual GP fundholding, together with the internal market, which has caused the low morale among doctors and growing uncertainty among patients.
Patients, who have always rightly expected that their own doctor would be a helpful gatekeeper to the other services they may need, now often find themselves discriminated against in a two-tier system, a system where hospital services, for example, may be closed to anyone who is not registered with a fundholder. Every week we hear of this happening in different parts of the country. For example, there is surely something wrong when Lincoln County Hospital writes to all non-fundholding GPs in its area cancelling outpatient appointments for the rest of the financial year, although if you are a patient of a fundholder you can still be seen; or when Norfolk and Norwich Hospital cancels all routine surgery for patients of non-fundholding GPS; or when patients in Tooting are told that they can have a fast-track service for endoscopy only if they are under a GP fundholder.
Of course, in dentistry it is not a question of being in a fast lane or a slow one; it is simply a question of finding an NHS dentist at all. A recent national poll for the British Dental Association showed that one in three people has difficulty getting any health service dental care in their local area.
The Minister has explained that the primary care Bill, by loosening the contract system, may give opportunities to develop and extend those much needed services and that is certainly to be welcomed. We welcome the proposed flexibility of local contracts which may enable the contracts to be practice-based. It is clearly important to include other health professionals, to increase their authority and to involve people such as nurses and health visitors as equal partners in primary care schemes. Provided we have assurances that improvements can be made on an equitable basis within health service funding, we will not oppose the Bill in principle.
But nonetheless the timing and nature of the Bill are somewhat surprising, not least because in recent Sessions successive measures have been introduced to alter NHS structures and organisations. Each time, your Lordships have been told that this was the last, that the present Government's somewhat notorious grand design for the health service was complete. Now, in the last few months of this Parliament, we have before us these proposals for major change which incorporate principles and mechanisms which seem to fly in the face of the earlier approach to reform and which I hope and expect the Government will not survive to implement.
The most surprising element of the primary care Bill is its emphasis on piloting and evaluation before permanent changes are introduced. As the Minister
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explained, the whole of Part I of the Bill—the first 16 clauses—deals with proposals for organising a wide variety of experimental schemes which are based on local initiatives. Further, in all the background documents and briefings which accompanied the earlier White Paper and the Bill, the Secretary of State has insisted that a driving force behind these pilots is the ambition of improving equity in primary care.
Frankly, that is astonishing. As we are all too painfully aware, the Government have up till now relied exclusively on the internal market to determine service patterns, with little explicit regard for equity. They have relentlessly pursued the "big bang" method of health service change. The House will recall that when the internal market was first mooted in the National Health Service and Community Care Bill 1990 the then Secretary of State for Health, Mr. Kenneth Clarke, said that requests for piloting before radical change was introduced were merely an attempt to obfuscate, filibuster and delay. All the attempts by my noble friends in your Lordships' House and honourable friends in another place to get incremental change were resisted. They were resisted then and they have been resisted on subsequent Bills ever since.
The internal market was introduced overnight across the whole country and has produced the present alarming state of escalating administrative costs and a lottery of care. Of course, the internal market system has never been properly assessed and evaluated by the Government.
In stark contrast, today we have before us a wide-ranging enabling Bill to encourage voluntary experimental schemes designed to increase local flexibility and equity in service provision. The British Medical Association has described the proposals as,
"a welcome change from the Government's previous dogmatic initiatives which were imposed on an unwilling profession".
My noble friends and I join it in those sentiments. Indeed, I would go further. I think it is not inappropriate in the circumstances that we have before us today to describe this, the final piece of NHS legislation this Government can introduce, as a deathbed conversion. We may be sceptical about the motives for that deathbed conversion, but we accept the overall aims of the Bill.
However, there are substantial areas of concern which we will want to take up in detail at later stages. The first is the extent and scope of the possible pilot schemes which could in turn become permanent arrangements. The Secretary of State has been enthusiastic about,
"letting a thousand flowers bloom".
I do not think that the Minister allowed herself such flowery metaphors this afternoon. But our anxiety is that weeds could also flourish—poisonous weeds which might choke the fundamental principles of the NHS. In other words, the Bill could create backdoor privatisation of primary care.
The Minister described that as speculation, but Clause 2 appears to limit proposers of new schemes to NHS trusts or to practising GPs, dentists and pharmacists who appear on existing regulatory health service lists and hold existing NHS contracts. But although these "qualified people" will have to initiate

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pilot projects, they could work in co-operation with so-called "other bodies" to formulate and carry out schemes. The fear must be that the most enterprising "other bodies" are likely to be private companies and that although schemes may formally be led by NHS providers, behind the scenes sponsors may well be commercial organisations.
Further on in the Bill, Clause 13 allows that a person who is not a health service body but who provides or proposes to provide pilot scheme services may make an application to become a health service body and thus make NHS contracts. This again opens up wide possibilities, with the spectre of any organisation becoming de jure as well as de facto a health service body.
In the debate on the gracious Speech in another place, the Secretary of State did not deny this possibility. This afternoon, although the Minister said that this was speculation, she did not specifically exclude it. Perhaps I may say to your Lordships—in case anyone thinks that this is simply fanciful scaremongering—that over the past few days I have spoken to GPs in London who have already been approached by private companies with an interest in pursuing new contracts through them. One indeed has already had three specific proposals from organisations, including American health maintenance organisations, interested in becoming involved. As the Bill progresses we will certainly seek much greater clarity in this area to ensure that pilot schemes are limited to those who are genuinely qualified NHS providers and do not allow a cover for commercial companies to become directly involved in primary care.
Another major concern is that of maintaining and improving national standards of care across the whole range of medical and dental services. There is not very much in the Bill—except the provision that practitioners proffering services in pilot schemes must be suitably experienced—which addresses the issue of quality.
Deregulation in the form the Bill proposes may well lead to greater variety and flexibility in meeting different patients' needs in different circumstances. But it will only be of real benefit to those patients if different forms of care and service provision are of equally high standard. This can best be achieved in a national framework of accountability and standard setting.
There has been some interesting recent work and proposals for adopting a type of national franchising scheme for primary care to protect standards. Fidelma Winkler of Queen Mary and Westfield College, who has long practical experience of the health service, in an interesting collection of essays published this summer called A Primary Care-Led NHS—the Lead Phase, wrote:
"The franchise method of combining equity and access with a standard product is well known in Britain. Each outlet remains independently owned but must adhere to quality and service standards".
She goes on to describe how in the voluntary sector the citizens advice bureaux most closely follow this model. Local agencies can only call themselves citizens advice bureaux if they conform to the standard practices laid down by the national body. Users develop
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expectations and confidence and get a service guarantee. If some way of ensuring a wider choice of services on that basis can be achieved through this Bill it will be acceptable, but what we do not want is diversity which leads to wide variations in standards of care.
Of course quality could be tested and monitored through the evaluation process but the Bill as it stands contains no indications that quality and effectiveness will be specifically measured in that process. We welcome the proposal that the Secretary of State must conduct at least one review of each pilot scheme but, like the relevant representative professional bodies and, indeed, organisations such as the National Consumer Council and the Consumers' Association, we are concerned that the scope and nature of those reviews has not been made more specific. There must clearly be thorough, wide consultation before any pilot is made permanent.
The Bill does allow, as the Minister explained, local health authorities and contributing providers to comment on a review but does not include any wider independent evaluation and, particularly, does not include a requirement to consult the users of any experimental service. The process and methods of evaluation is an area to which we will certainly wish to return.
As I said earlier, we are pleasantly surprised by the Government's new-found interest in positively promoting equity in health care. It is important that the Bill allows the possibility of salaried GPs to be employed by community health trusts and for the development of so-called personal dental service contracts.
These new schemes should be particularly helpful in meeting some of the alarming gaps which exist today in inner city primary care, for example. I was told recently of one London health authority which has no applicants for its current GP traineeships. There are many others where practice vacancies are empty for long periods of time.
In dentistry the British Dental Association has pointed out that 70 health authorities have applied for the existing Government access fund, which is only available in areas where there are serious problems. Lack of access to NHS dental care is now spreading from poorer urban and rural areas to more affluent areas. If the proposed schemes go any of the way to restoring some kind of equity they are to be welcomed.
But there is another aspect of access—that of equity. The British Medical Association and the Medical Practices Committee are concerned that the Bill may make the situation worse rather than better. The Medical Practices Committee, which was established by the original 1946 NHS Act, exists to ensure that there is an adequate number of GPs in all parts of the country.
There is already disquiet, as I have described, about the inadequacy of services in inner cities and remote rural areas. Broader geographical disparities across the country have been well documented. For example, it has been calculated that 700 doctors would need to move to the north of England from the south to provide equitable distribution of GPs across the country. Better off areas tend, for obvious reasons, to have a higher proportion of

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general practitioners per head than poorer ones. Anglia and Oxford region have 9.4 per cent. above the norm compared to the north-west region which has 9.4 per cent. below the norm.
The best efforts of the Medical Practices Committee have failed to prevent this inequity but now they are legitimately concerned that the very broad provisions of the pilot schemes may make any strategic attempts at more equal distribution impossible. If all decisions about numbers and organisation of GPs are devolved to local initiatives and local health authorities, the role of the Medical Practices Committee must be bypassed. The only discretion will be left to the Secretary of State in agreeing and then reviewing proposals for new arrangements.
We will want to probe this further as there is clearly no point in seeking to improve equity of access by new individual employment agreements in areas where recruitment is difficult while at the same time diminishing the national strategic capacity to assess and meet local needs. It may be that the role of the MPC should be extended to pilot schemes. If, on the other hand, the Government intend deliberately to marginalise the committee and the new arrangements then that should be made clear and specific.
Finally, there is the usual vexed question of resources. My noble friend Lord Rea will raise some issues about the sources of overall funding for pilot and permanent schemes when he speaks later in the debate. My initial concern is that the sum of £6 million, which has been set aside to pay for setting up and evaluating new schemes, must surely be inadequate if the ambitions of these projects, as they have been described, are to be properly fulfilled.
More generally, the schemes are not intended to come fully into effect until 1998 to 1999 when, in spite of the post-Budget euphoria about NHS growth, we now learn from the Red Book, health service funding will at best be at a standstill and may be cut in real terms.
We will need to return to detailed questions of how the proposed broad spectrum of new services can be paid for within our tax-funded system. Does the lack of clarity about this in the Bill as it stands suggest that Ministers expect there to be a substantial private commercial investment?
Overall we support the intention of the Bill to improve primary care through a more flexible approach to local delivery of services. But we fear that total deregulation could lead to greater inequities, lower standards and easier privatisation. As the Bill progresses we will want to ensure that publicly financed diversity is structured in a way which brings benefits to all patients; in other words, that any changes there may be to primary care are true to the principles of the NHS.
4.08 p.m.
Baroness Robson of Kiddington: My Lords, I, too, should like to thank the noble Baroness, the Minister, for her clear and detailed introduction of the Bill. She clearly stated that there are two different parts of the Bill. The first part deals with the introduction of pilot schemes which might lead to changes across the board in the way in which the GP service is provided in this country. The
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second aspect of the Bill deals with parts of the primary care which require legislative change to make them work more appropriately.
There is a great difference between this Bill and previous National Health Service Bills. This one, if adopted, begins an evolutionary change which will be with us for many years. It will not happen overnight like some of the other "big bang" National Health Service Bills. I welcome that; but, on the other hand, we must also consider how an evolutionary change will affect the health service. It will take some time before people employed in the health service will feel that they know where they are.
As has been stated, it is essentially an enabling Bill. Most of it will be implemented by regulation. As I understand it, those regulations will be subject to negative resolution. I am certain that some details of these regulations will be vital to the future of primary care. Some of them might need affirmative resolution, so that a proper debate can take place in Parliament.
Part I of the Bill, which deals with changes in the general practitioner services in this country, is to be tested through setting up pilot schemes to enable GPs to develop a multi-disciplinary approach to primary healthcare. That has much to recommend it. However, we must ensure that any changes introduced do not jeopardise what is the most precious part of the National Health Service; namely, our general practitioner service, which every other country envies us.
I also feel that the further development of primary care will inevitably demand greater resources. We are concerned that changes flowing from the Bill must not be at the expense of the secondary sector, which already suffers from a shortage of resources. Every day we hear of one hospital after another having to reduce its services due to overspending. The extra £6 million being injected to cover additional costs in preparing, managing, monitoring and evaluating the pilot schemes seems to be the only additional finance available for this change.
If the proposed changes are to work, a thorough preparation of each pilot scheme will be necessary. The evaluation process will also demand extra cash. There are two important points about evaluating the pilot schemes. First, I ask the Government to make sure that schemes run for a reasonable length of time in order to ascertain that they are an improvement on the present system. It is no good having a pilot scheme where decisions are taken within four or six months because one is absolutely convinced that it is an improvement. A much longer time is needed.
Secondly, the evaluation process must be thoroughly completed before the scheme is given a permanent go-ahead. We must not have a repetition of the speed at which the nursery voucher scheme was given the go-ahead, even before the pilot scheme was finished. If we are to make sense of this legislation, it has to be implemented very carefully and patiently.
In the evaluation there must also be close liaison between general practitioners and local authorities. Primary care is the responsibility of both those parts of our community. I believe that co-operation between those two bodies should be included on the face of the Bill.

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The Bill also deals with changes to the contract between general practitioners and the National Health Service. The introduction of a salaried contract for general practitioners may be helpful in achieving equal cover of GP services throughout the country, in particular in inner city and rural areas which at present are often left with insufficient cover. It may also be of help for the group of doctors who opt for part-time work. They are, in the main, married women who are not able to take on a full-time job, so a salaried contract may be of great benefit to them.
However, these changes have implications for manpower planning. As the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, mentioned, the Medical Practices Committee will not cover GPs taking part in pilot schemes nor those doctors who are employed by hospital trusts on a salaried contract. The Medical Practices Committee will still be required to carry out the workforce planning for GPs working under the present arrangements. Existing GP practices would be affected adversely when they wished to replace a partner in an area where a pilot is in existence, boosting the number of GPs in that particular area.
Without a national overview of the medical workforce, there could be over-doctoring in some areas, which is bound to lead to under-doctoring in other areas. The need to maintain one overall body looking at workforce planning and distribution still remains.
Many of the pilot schemes will be dependent on the ability of nurses to prescribe, if they are to fulfil the aim to produce more flexible and appropriate services. It will be essential for nurse prescribing to be extended to include both more nurses than the limited number of appropriately qualified health visitors and nurses that is now allowed and a wider range of products. It is therefore important that nurse prescribing be extended in parallel with the implementation of this Bill.
The Minister mentioned the possibility of a change from individual GP contracts to practice-based contracts. Under a practice-based contract it is conceivable that a nurse could become a partner in a practice. Will the Minister say what happens to the list for that practice? Let us say that there are six partners and one partner retires and the practice decides to appoint a practice nurse as a partner instead of another general practitioner. What happens to the patients who were allocated to the GP who retired? Will nurses be allowed under those circumstances to have a list of patients as well? There are all kinds of questions that need to be answered if we are to know where we are going under the new system.
There is one aspect dealt with under Part II which will have everybody's approval. The proposal to change the regulations governing recruitment to single-handed practices surely must have our support. Currently, health authorities are responsible for appointing GPs to vacancies in single-handed practices. They have to advertise a minimum of three times and if, at the end of that process, there is not a suitable fully qualified candidate, they have to employ whoever is the best of the bad. I cannot understand how, ever since 1948, we have perpetuated that system. But now I am happy that under this Bill health authorities can freeze the vacancy until a suitable candidate can be found.
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I also very much welcome the recognition in the Bill of the tremendous services that the pharmacological profession can give to the NHS. In this country we are very lucky to have a large number of community pharmacists who act as advisers to the general public and are always helpful to their customers. But they face great problems in being able to keep going, particularly in rural areas and away from great concentrations of population. At the moment they are tremendously concerned about the removal of resale price maintenance in the pharmaceutical sector. They estimate that if RPM is removed at least 3,000 of those small community pharmacists will have to close through lack of funds. That is something we must consider deeply because pharmacies have the potential of taking tremendous pressures off the GP surgery and giving great service to the communities in which they function.
I said at the beginning of my speech that this is an enabling Bill; and that it will be many years before we see the final outcome of what it creates. It is, therefore, interesting that we are only a few months away from a general election and do not know who will implement the regulations in the Bill. In fact, we do not know if it will be implemented at all should there be a change of government. However, I hope that most of the good proposals in the Bill will be implemented by whichever party wins the election. The Bill has the potential to be a step forward in the provision of community care. But it must be done carefully and Parliament should retain some input into the discussions on the regulations which have yet to be introduced.
4.21 p.m.
Lord Walton of Detchant: My Lords, there can be little doubt that the drafting of parliamentary Bills is a unique art form. I confess that I have wrestled with the Bill being considered today at Second Reading in your Lordships' House and found some of its provisions complex and difficult to interpret, though the explanatory memorandum is helpful and explicit. The Bill cannot be recommended as light bedtime reading, but the Minister introduced it with commendable clarity.
When I graduated in medicine 51 years ago there were some outstandingly able general practitioners. Nevertheless, in many respects general practice was the weakest section of the medical profession. The quality and extent of its provision was exceptionally variable across the country. Indeed, before the NHS began there was a widespread feeling in many areas—not least in my native north-east—and especially among the less affluent members of society, that for a child with severe abdominal pain, for example, two-pennyworth of castor oil was cheaper than the doctor. Sadly, that perception resulted in an unacceptably high incidence, in the days when I was a paediatric house physician, of children being admitted to hospital with perforated appendixes.
The introduction of the National Health Service on the appointed day in July 1948 heralded a slow progressive improvement. But there were still many aspects of general medical practice which were far from satisfactory. In particular, the range of services provided from GP surgeries, often in converted houses, cramped annexes or otherwise inadequate premises, was very limited. The

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concept of the healthcare team involving nurses and other healthcare professionals working alongside GPs still lay far ahead into the future. And, with the rapidly escalating advance of medical science, doctors going into general practice immediately after graduation were often ill-equipped to deal with the wide range of illnesses and disabilities which came regularly to their attention.
The introduction in 1950 of a compulsory pre-registration year prior to full registration with the General Medical Council brought about some improvement. But a proper standard of training for doctors working in primary healthcare had to wait for the subsequent introduction of the compulsory period of three years of vocational training after full registration which is now required before any doctor can become a principal in general practice. That development, above all others, has resulted in a striking improvement in the standard of primary medical care, as have many other governmental and professional initiatives, leading to the establishment not just of health centres as originally envisaged in the NHS Act, but of surgeries in much improved premises capable of offering a very much wider range of services than was ever envisaged at the inception of the NHS.
It seems to me clear that this primary care Bill now before us represents another major step along the road towards an improved primary care led service. And it overcomes some current contractual arrangements which limit the ability of GPs to expand and develop services. Speaking as a former teacher of medical students and as one much involved some time ago in postgraduate medical education and in the work of the GMC and its education committee, I have been much impressed by the way in which the profession has come to terms, first, with the need for continual upgrading of knowledge, even after the completion of vocational training; and, secondly, with the necessity of collaborating with practice nurses, district nurses, health visitors, social workers, physiotherapists and occupational therapists and many other members of the caring professions so as to make the concept of the healthcare team a reality. Indeed, as pressures upon the primary care service have continued to escalate, as indeed they have with innumerable new initiatives imposing new responsibilities upon GPs, it has become abundantly clear that many of the tasks in which they were historically engaged could readily have been carried out, and are being carried out to an increasing extent, by other healthcare professionals with whom they work in close concert and collaboration.
One of the strengths of our NHS, which has enabled comprehensive medical care to be provided at a much lower cost than is the case in publicly-funded health services in many other countries, has been the crucial gatekeeper function of the GP. Patients in the UK do not, as a rule, consult specialists directly but first see their GP, who then advises them upon the best course of action and the best specialist opinion to be sought, if required. I earnestly hope that the recent decision of the GMC to allow specialists to advertise will not erode that vital gatekeeper function.
As a former consultant neurologist, I welcome the concept of a primary care led NHS, and I welcome also the flexibility inherent in this Bill, as well as the opportunities which it will offer to GPs, enabling them to
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offer an increasingly diverse range of services. Closer collaboration, for example, with pharmacists, optometrists, dentists and many others is to be greatly welcomed. But with the increasingly difficult problems now being faced by our hospitals across the length and breadth of the country, it is vital to recognise—as the noble Baroness, Lady Robson, pointed out—particularly in the light of the increased funding which is to be made available for the NHS following the recent Budget statement by the Chancellor in another place, that any increase in resources for the primary care service, inevitably required if this Bill becomes law, must not be at the cost of a reduction in the funding of our acute hospital services. Our hospitals are already under serious threat because of many factors, including the remorseless pressures of an ageing population, of major developments in medical science and technology, not least in drug development, but also, very properly, because of increasing public demand and expectation. It is particularly important that Her Majesty's Government should be aware of the present parlous state of clinical academic medicine, since it is the clinical academics, not just in hospital specialities but also in primary care, who are largely responsible, and will in future be increasingly responsible, for the training of future recruits into general practice.
There are at present 57 vacant clinical chairs in the United Kingdom which have failed to attract, on advertisement, suitable applicants, and the recent charade through which the universities were unable to find the funds to award the same very small annual salary increases to clinical academics as to their NHS counterparts not only breached a long-standing agreement between the Department for Education, on the one hand, and the Department of Health, on the other—an agreement which had existed since 1969—but added further flames to the fire of disenchantment in the clinical academic community; this has had a very serious adverse effect upon recruitment. Happily, this issue has at last been resolved, not before time, with a long-term agreement, which I trust will hold. Her Majesty's Government must also recognise that morale unfortunately is low in primary care itself; there has been a sharp decline in the number of young doctors applying for registrarships (formerly called traineeships) in general practice. Many parts of the country are finding great difficulty in recruiting appropriately qualified candidates.
May I, nevertheless, express a warm welcome for virtually all the provisions of this Bill. In particular, I believe that the BMA and the Medical Practices Committee, a statutory body controlling medical manpower distribution in primary care, welcome the proposal to introduce, where needed, salaried GPs, not least for the part-time women referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Robson, but also because this option will help to retain doctors in and possibly to attract others to, areas of high need and deprivation, not least in our inner cities where there is still room for improvement. I also greatly welcome the proposal that appointments to single-handed vacancies in general practice should be made only where there is a suitable applicant. This provision will ensure that such GPs have the necessary qualities to meet the unique and often particularly

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demanding responsibilities of single-handed practice. It is also right that GP partnerships should be responsible for making appointments to vacancies within their own practices, but with the strict proviso that single-handed principals working in group practices which do not constitute partnerships must be excluded from that proposal.
It is, however, apparent that many of those in the medical profession and in the Medical Practices Committee—a body which has exceptional experience in the recruitment and appointment of doctors to primary care vacancies—are seriously concerned about the proposal that pilot projects should be established outside the existing national manpower distribution controls. The Medical Practices Committee, since its inception in 1948, has proved extremely successful in ensuring an even distribution of doctors delivering general medical services to patients. It has invariably adopted a very flexible approach, and its success in supporting the London Initiative Zone and other initiatives by individual health authorities has proved that within its existing framework flexibility to accommodate any pilots or other future schemes is possible.
The MPC is the only body which has a detailed overview of the national GP manpower situation at any one time. Health authorities feed in local details about each case to be considered, placing the MPC in a unique position to encourage local proposals in the context of the national situation. Hence, I think it is important that central workforce planning is essential for the continuing nationwide delivery of high quality care. The increasing shortage of GPs means that the maintenance of such an adaptable national mechanism controlling the distribution of GP manpower has never been more important. Indeed, the Government's own White Paper accepted that it would be necessary to ensure that there remained in existence a coherent national view of the overall GP workforce.
I hope, therefore, that pilot projects, which I welcome, as proposed in the Bill, will be embraced within existing national manpower distribution controls. These pilot projects are an extremely useful, important and innovative proposal. They are voluntary. They will enable unconventional groupings and partnerships to be achieved, as, for example, between doctors, dentists, pharmacists, nurses and others that seem to be appropriate in relation to local circumstances.
I must ask the Minister what plans are going to be made not just for the assessment of these partnerships and the valuation of these pilot projects before they are made permanent, but also the extent to which the local populations, who, after all, will be the consumers, will be consulted about their value. I would also ask whether it will be possible to achieve an unconventional (at present) partnership not allowed under present GP contracts; for example, between doctors and nurses. Is it then possible that that partnership, with contracts to provide health services, could be regarded and accepted as a health service body, as I believe is proposed as a possibility within the Bill?
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The present arrangements for admitting doctors to a medical list and checking their qualifications through the MPC means that the staff involved are highly expert in the necessary procedures. Is it then really necessary that health authorities should be responsible for adding GPs to the medical list? There is no evidence to suggest that the existing system is flawed in this regard. Any new method might result in dilution of existing expertise, more bureaucracy and an increased risk of doctors being admitted to medical lists when not properly qualified. The Medical Practices Committee takes the view that this proposed change is unnecessary and indeed would be unsatisfactory in the interests of quality. I look forward to hearing the noble Baroness's comments upon this particular concern.
Finally, I should also be interested to learn of the Minister's opinion about the Government's proposals, not so far as I can see on the face of the Bill, to target pro-actively high-list GPs with a view to aiming for an average whole-time equivalent practice list size of 1,800 or even 1,700. There is good evidence that some of the most able and effective GPs in this country who have been foremost in education, innovation and research, as well as in providing a high standard of primary care, have functioned very effectively with lists substantially larger than those proposed. I look forward to hearing the Minister's view upon the extent to which these proposals may be rigidly imposed—or are they simply suggestions and not decisions which are likely to be enshrined in regulations or in law?
Subject to these relatively minor criticisms, I welcome this far-sighted and original Bill, as I believe that in the longer term it will not just be to the benefit of those involved in the provision of primary care but also very greatly to the benefit of the population at large.

ECOFIN
4.37 p.m.
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I would like to repeat a Statement made in another place by my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Statement is as follows:
"Madam Speaker, I would like to make a Statement about the Council of Finance Ministers Meeting in Brussels which I attended yesterday.
"The Council considered at some length a new lending remit for the European Investment Bank. We considered and approved a report on employment policy to be submitted jointly by ECOFIN and the Social Affairs Council to be considered by the forthcoming European Council at Dublin. We transacted a number of other items of routine business which I will report to the House in due course by Written Answer in the usual way.
"We carried forward political preparations for the anticipated discussion at Dublin of economic and monetary union. Finance Ministers have been charged by the last European Council at Florence to prepare a progress report on preparations for EMU. Progress was made but no final conclusions were reached, mainly

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because of outstanding issues which remain to be resolved on the operation of the proposed stability pact and, in particular, on the definition of an exceptional and temporary deficit for the purpose of Article 104(c).
"I made a constructive contribution to the debate in an effort to achieve the widest possible measure of political agreement in preparation for the summit meeting. I made it clear at the outset that my agreement, while in line with government policy, was subject to a parliamentary reserve and could not commit the Government until parliamentary discussions had been completed. The Irish President of the Council confirmed that my parliamentary reserve would be reported and printed on the face of any document laid before the Dublin Council.
"Only two of the texts of the draft regulations which are currently subject to parliamentary scrutiny and were the subject of my Statement last Monday featured in the discussions at ECOFIN yesterday. They were the regulations on the legal framework for the euro under Article 235 and under Article 109(1)4 of the treaty.
"There never had been any question of legislative decision on EMU being taken at yesterday's meeting. These two regulations were considered and drafts will probably be attached to the eventual report to Dublin.
"The Council is at present agreed that there will be no final agreement on the operation of EMU or the text of any regulations until all the negotiations are completed. ECOFIN and every member state are working on the basis that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. I now anticipate that no final agreement on any binding legislation on EMU is likely before, at the earliest, the planned European Council meeting in Amsterdam in June of next year.
"The draft Article 235 regulation causes no problems to the British Government as it now stands. We would like to see it progressed as quickly as possible to give greater legal certainty to existing commercial contracts in English law denominated in ecus or in currencies which might go into the euro.
"The Article 109(1)(4) regulation might have caused concern in this country as some people might have claimed, mistakenly, that the legislation to be enacted in due course by the member states of the euro-zone might be directly applicable to all member states in a way which contradicted the British opt-out. This interpretation would have been incorrect. However, I was able to obtain agreement of the Council to amendments to Article 17 of the draft regulation and consequential changes to the recitals of the regulations which make the position clear and beyond doubt on the face of the document. The amendments make the application of the regulation subject to Protocol No. 11 of the treaty and the amendments also make clear that the protocol stipulates, among other things, that Article 109(1)4 shall not apply to the United Kingdom unless we move to the third stage.
"I have also obtained agreement to changes to any text of the report that ECOFIN may eventually submit to the Dublin Council on progress towards EMU. I have obtained clear statements that membership of the proposed ERM2 for states outside the Euro will be
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voluntary. I have obtained explicit statements that the council can only make non-binding recommendations under Article 103 to member states outside the euro and outside ERM2 when carrying out surveillance of economic policies. We have, of course, been committed to economic and monetary co-operation and convergence of economic and monetary policies which are necessary for the further development of the Community ever since we signed the Single European Act. The present treaty and practice only commit us to seek to ensure that our domestic policies are geared to price stability and sound public finances and to seek to avoid an excessive deficit. No sanctions can be applied to this country for any failure to take effective steps to achieve that unless and until we move to Stage 3.
"The report will deal with budgetary discipline in Stage 3. The draft now states that euro area member states will be obliged to submit programmes and will be subject to agreed sanctions for failure to act effectively on excessive deficits. In the surveillance procedure, other member states will be obliged to submit convergence programmes only. In the excessive deficit procedure, sanctions cannot be applied to them. I will ensure that such statements remain in any report which may eventually be submitted to the Dublin Council. They are not being challenged by any other member state or the Commission.
"The outstanding matters to be resolved relate to the circumstances in which a member state of the euro may not be subject to this excessive deficit procedure and possible sanctions if a deficit is only exceptional and temporary.
"The preparatory work in ECOFIN is therefore proceeding precisely on the legal and political basis which I and my honourable friend the Exchequer Secretary and others have frequently described to this House."
My Lords, that completes the Statement.
4.43 p.m.
Lord Peston: My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement of his right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. This is a particularly difficult Statement to deal with. One obvious reason is that your Lordships will be debating all these matters tomorrow under a Motion submitted by my noble friend. I believe that it would be trying the patience of the House too much if I were to make the same speech again within 24 hours.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: Go on!
Lord Peston: My Lords, perhaps within 48 hours, yes, but 24 hours is too soon. I hope therefore that noble Lords will allow me to concentrate on a few of the points in the Statement and elaborate further tomorrow.
There is also a more delicate matter. As I understand from this Statement, the views of the right honourable gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer and mine are very similar: his inclination is towards monetary union in principle, subject to all sorts of conditions being met. That is the way he leans and that is certainly the way I lean, but

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I gather that one or two of his right honourable friends do not quite see the matter that way. Since I wish to see this matter proceed rationally, I shall not make mischief on the subject today or for that matter tomorrow.
As regards the report, perhaps I may say how much I welcome the second paragraph. I look forward very much to seeing the report on employment policy. I take it that the Minister will confirm in a few minutes that, when the report on employment policy is submitted by the Council of Economic and Finance Ministers and the Social Affairs Council to the forthcoming European Council at Dublin, your Lordships and Members of the other place will be able to see it, because what happens in the employment field is enormously important.
The material dealing with economic and monetary union raises the most obvious question. Some progress has been made but no final conclusions have been reached according to the Statement. But has as much progress been made as was anticipated? My impression—I was not there, so I am relying on the Statement—is that things are going more slowly than we expected. In particular—this is a matter that I shall deal with tomorrow concerning the definition of an exceptional and temporary deficit—can the Minister tell us whether Ministers at the meeting ran into the technical problems that those of us who study this subject are well aware of but which we have as yet been unable to solve? In other words, did Ministers hope to make progress, but they have not done so? As I said, I shall enlarge on that tomorrow.
Although my views on the opt-out are different from those of the Government, I believe that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was entirely right in that the Statement makes it clear beyond peradventure—which I assume is more for his honourable friends than for the rest of us—that the opt-out is genuine. That is essentially my way of summarising the various aspects. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has asked for various statements to be included in any documents, and he was right to do so. It is not that I agree with the substance of the matter, but having made an agreement, I agree that it should be made clear. I do not criticise the Government for that in any way whatsoever.
The questions that I have already asked lead to another question, which is this. Can we now expect anything serious in this area to occur at the Dublin Summit? From reading the Statement, and in particular that binding legislation will arise at the earliest at the European Council meeting in Amsterdam next June, it is by no means obvious that anything of use will happen at the Dublin Summit. I cannot imagine that the Heads of State would dream of cancelling the Summit, even though that might save their time and a certain amount of taxpayers' money. But one wonders what they can do to occupy themselves at that time if full progress has not yet been made on EMU.
The Statement also contains remarks on ERM2 quite separate from the evidence given to my noble friend's sub-committee. In terms, the Government have made it clear, not that they are open-minded on ERM or ERM2, but that they have no intention of joining ERM2. I have asked this question several times and have been unhappy with the answers. Since the Maastricht Treaty—which is a solemn treaty ratified in all proper ways—says that for
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a country to join EMU it must have been in ERM for two years within the relevant bands, can the Minister say whether it is still the Government's view that that commitment is somehow solemn but not binding? It puzzles me enormously—I am not an expert on matters concerned with law or treaties—that the Government persist in the view that they have not decided whether to join EMU but they have decided never to join an exchange rate mechanism and that somehow they find that compatible. In particular, I should like to ask the Minister—this is relevant to the Statement—whether the Government have received legal advice that their position stands up. I understand that people in other countries say that it could not possibly be legally correct.
I have been as brief as I possibly can, not because the subject is unimportant and not because I wish in any way to be disrespectful to your Lordships, but because we shall have an opportunity to look at other matters in much more detail tomorrow. Therefore, I hope that the Minister will bear with me if I do not pursue those other matters today.
Lord Ezra: My Lords, I too thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. I was a little surprised that we should have it because we had a similar Statement on 25th November and we have a full-scale debate tomorrow. Although the importance of the subject perhaps merits two bites of the cherry, three may be a little excessive. Like the noble Lord, Lord Peston, I shall therefore limit my remarks to just a few questions.
Like the noble Lord, I got the impression that the work done at the ECOFIN meeting yesterday was of a fairly limited nature. Only two of the four texts in connection with EMU preparation were considered and apparently no final agreements were reached on those two. Furthermore, somewhat to my surprise, it seems that the Dublin European Council meeting will apparently transact very little business because it was made clear that effective decisions will not be reached until the Amsterdam meeting in June of next year, a point to which the noble Lord, Lord Peston, referred. Perhaps the Minister will be able to explain exactly what is going to happen at the Dublin meeting and whether all is going to be decided at Amsterdam, which is mentioned as being the earliest date for such decisions, so this could probably go on for another six months until the next meeting.
In view of the rather fanciful press speculation, perhaps I may also ask the Minister—it is important that he confirms this—whether it remains the intention that the Government will continue to play a positive and active role in the negotiations. I feel that that is probably the intention, but as virtually every newspaper from the Financial Times to the tabloids has doubted that, I think it is relevant to ask the Minister on this occasion, and in advance of our full debate tomorrow, whether it remains the Government's firm intention to continue to play an active role in those deliberations. Following on from that, would it still be the Government's intention to pursue without ambiguity, whether in or out, a policy for "price stability", "sound public finances" and the avoidance of an "excessive deficit"—I quote from the Statement—and to promote such policy objectives within the EU as a whole? Those may appear to be somewhat redundant

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questions, but in view of this morning's press speculation I am sure that it would help the House to have clear answers to them.
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, I am grateful to both noble Lords for what they have said and I shall try to join them in brevity as we shall be having a debate on this tomorrow. Indeed, we seem to be having a number of debates on the issue in fairly short order.
I turn first to the questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Peston. I expect that the employment report will be attached to the conclusions of the Dublin Summit, so the noble Lord will be able to see it then.
The noble Lord asked me whether things were going slowly. I am not sure whether my right honourable friend the Chancellor has a timetable for such matters, but these are difficult decisions. The definition of "excessive and temporary deficits" is difficult because on that definition will hinge whether or not the procedures fall on top of the heads of any state which breaches the deficit—that is, if it is in the euro. Such definitions are difficult and, as I indicated a week ago on Monday, there is a view—this is clearly seen in the papers—that the Germans would like firm statements on these matters and are keener on "automaticity" (if that is the right word) while other countries think that there should be a little flexibility in case a member state gets into a deficit for purely temporary reasons which should be taken into account. As I have said, these are difficult issues.
The Dublin Summit will have plenty to do. It will consider the progress made so far in this area. As the Finance Ministers will be meeting a week come Thursday (before the heads of government meet), it is possible that more progress may have been made and they may have to consider that.
I think that I have answered questions on ERM and the treaty previously, but when the proposition was made that before one could join the single currency one had to be in the ERM, it was an ERM with narrow bands. No one has interpreted the treaty now that ERM is based on broad bands. As with other factors, it will eventually be for heads of state to decide whether any country joins the single currency. I think that I explained that last week and we shall no doubt return to the matter tomorrow.
I turn now to the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Ezra. I think that the two matters under consideration yesterday were very important. The legal status of the euro is a very important issue for the continuity of contracts for those states which decide to join the euro. There needs to be a smooth transition between contracts delineated in their currency and contracts which would thereafter have to be delineated in the euro. I am sure that the noble Lord knows that the City of London is very keen that such matters are clearly resolved before there is any more towards the euro. As I have said, the legal status of the euro is a very important issue.
I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Ezra, as I have on a number of occasions, that we shall continue to play a full and active part in all negotiations and discussions. As on a number of occasions, I fully agree with the noble Lord that price stability and avoiding excessive deficits are not only good with regard to a possible single currency but are sensible and should be pursued in any sensible economy.
4.58 p.m.
Lord Harmar-Nicolls: My Lords, I am confused about the purpose of these various Statements. In my experience, Statements are given to keep Parliament informed of what the Executive are doing. This Statement—and one or two like it—does nothing of the sort. Indeed, the Statement itself said that no agreements were made. I can understand that because the final agreements will be made at the end and after Dublin. Although no agreements were made, the Statement went on to say that we had secured opt-out powers for this country. There has to be some sort of agreement by somebody if we are able to say that that has been re-established because there has been a lot of doubt. Furthermore, the Government say that no agreements have been made and yet progress has been achieved. Progress from where to where? In which direction was the progress? What does it mean?
I do not think that my noble friend or the Government should be easily satisfied with the comments made by those on the Labour and Liberal Democrat Benches. They will agree with whatever is done, provided that it is a move in one direction, which seems to me to lead to federalism or something like it. So their comments about wanting to know more about this can be disregarded. Their interpretation of "progress" is of progress in that direction. The Statement really should indicate in which direction we are progressing and how far we have got. I fully accept that the ultimate decision must be taken later.
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, the decisions about the legal basis of the euro and the stability pact are vitally important for the future of this country whether we are in or out. Their importance is obvious if we are in. They are equally important if we are out. The single market and the European Community will remain our single most important trading partner. It is essential to our economy that any single currency created by some member states is stable. That is why I have said on a number of occasions that the stability pact is very important. As I have explained to the noble Lord, Lord Ezra, the legal status of the euro is also important. If my noble friend doubts that, I invite him to ask those in the City of London whether these matters are of vital importance to them.
As regards Statements, when my ministerial colleagues return from Europe having discussed a variety of subjects they usually report to Parliament, in particular the House of Commons. This is done usually by Written Answer but sometimes by Statement. We believe that that is the right way to report these important issues to Parliament in order to keep Parliament informed so that it can express its views. I make no apology for this Statement. My right honourable friend the Chancellor has given Written Answers time without number on his return from ECOFIN meetings. On this occasion he has chosen to

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make an oral Statement because of the importance of these issues and the interest expressed in them in the other place and in your Lordships' House.
Lord Monkswell: My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. I believe that all noble Lords recognise that whether this country is in or out of the common currency regime it is important that it succeeds. Nothing could be worse for Europe than for such a regime to be set up and within a short space of time to find it falling apart. I believe that that sentiment is shared all round the House and across Europe. We have heard from authoritative sources that the present method of setting it up is not viable. My noble friend Lord Desai said that a greater proportion of GDP should be available to the central budget than is currently the case. My noble friend Lord Healey has referred to social instability as a result of the implications of EMU. Perhaps I may ask the Minister whether any work is being done on the transfer of funds and the increase in the proportion of GDP available for budgetary purposes, in particular in terms of unemployment benefit or pension provision at European level, rather than that those matters should remain the sole responsibility of member states, the implication being that the European budget covers less than 2 per cent. of GDP.
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, over recent weeks I have dealt with a number of these issues. I hope that I have made the position of the Government abundantly clear. As far as concerns pension provision in other member states that have pay-as-you-go systems, I thought that I had made it abundantly clear that the Government were firmly of the view that there was no question of Britain having to pick up the tabs for any deficits in those schemes. That is clearly set out in the Maastricht Treaty which provides that one country will not be expected to take on the deficit of another. As far as concerns the budget of the Community, I believe that I have also made it clear on a number of occasions, as have the Government in another place, that Britain will not agree to any increase in the budget. In that we are now happily joined by a number of other countries who are either new entrants to the Community or are becoming budget donors (so to speak) and not budget recipients.
The Earl of Onslow: My Lords, can my noble friend confirm that the articles from which Britain can opt out are those referred to in paragraphs 3 to 9 of the Protocol to the Maastricht Treaty? Can he also confirm that under those articles we can be fined under the stability pact, and cannot opt out of any of them until we have specifically notified the Council under paragraph 2 that we do not intend to move to Stage 3? Therefore, we do not have an opt-out from any fine under the stability pact until we exercise our opt-out from Stage 3.
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, I am not entirely sure that I understand the thrust of my noble friend's question. We do not have an opt-out from the fines until we say that we intend to opt out. That seems to me to be logical. Our opt-out position is clearly
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delineated in the Protocol. It states clearly that we shall notify the Council that we do not intend to move to Stage 3, and we shall be under no obligation to move to Stage 3. If that happens, paragraph 5 of the Protocol delineates the articles that will not apply to the United Kingdom. I make clear yet again that if we decide to exercise our opt-out and formally notify the Council that we will not move to Stage 3, there is no possibility of our being fined under the excessive deficit procedure.
The Earl of Onslow: My Lords, is it not the case that we can be fined if we have not exercised the opt-out?
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, I find it difficult to understand my noble friend's question. If we have not exercised our opt-out but have decided to join up for the euro we shall have signed up for whatever stability pact arrangement is decided upon in order to keep the euro stable. I understand that my noble friend does not approve of the whole concept. However, I do not believe for a moment that he wishes it to be unstable, because that will damage our economy as well as our important markets on the Continent.
Lord Monson: My Lords, on the face of it there is some reassurance in the Statement repeated by the noble Lord, Lord Mackay. However, perhaps he would be kind enough to clarify one closely related matter. On "World at One" today the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr. Michael Heseltine, was asked why the Government were so determined to postpone any decision about joining EMU until June 1997 at the earliest. To paraphrase his reply, he said that in Britain's national interest it was essential to keep a seat at the negotiating table for as long as possible. Of course, one would not disagree with that. But is it not correct to say that in law we have an absolute legal right to remain at the negotiating table whether or not we announce shortly our intention to stay outside EMU for the time being?
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, I am not entirely sure whether or not in law we would be allowed to remain at the negotiating table if we said at this stage that we did not wish to enter the euro at any stage. But even if we were allowed to stay at the negotiating table I do not believe that our negotiating position would be very strong. It is important that we remain at the table and that we take a decision about whether Britain should join the euro currency scheme when that decision has to be made and when we see the results of the formal negotiations about the stability pact and how strictly the convergence factors are being obeyed. To paraphrase my right honourable friend the Chancellor (just as the noble Lord paraphrases my right honourable friend the Deputy Prime Minister), he said that if the convergence factors are fudged, brushed over and not obeyed at all, he will be doubtful about the value of joining in that kind of proposition. We are clear that we should be at the negotiating table and should ensure, whether we are in or out, that if the Euro comes about it is stable and

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sensible and that this major trading group to which we belong, and on which our prosperity heavily depends, is stable in future.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, if some noble Lords are sceptical about the copper-bottomed guarantees that the Chancellor has just given to the House of Commons, perhaps they will recall that the same kind of guarantees were given about our opt out from the social chapter. Yet, only two or three weeks ago we saw just how "copper-bottomed" they were when the 48-hour week and various other employment matters were imposed on this country over the head of Parliament by the European Court of Justice. As far as concerns ERM, we were told that the conditions would be agreed by the heads of state. Those conditions are already in the Treaty of Maastricht. They provide that to qualify member states must have been members of the ERM for two years. That seems to be explicit, or are heads of state, as the Commission has already done, prepared to have a creative accounting system, as they have in France, for example, over meeting the convergence criteria in relation also to the ERM? Those are serious matters.
Despite what was negotiated and agreed yesterday by the Chancellor, does Article 103 involve the intervention of the ECJ in the whole matter, and irrespective of what we agree will the decision of the ECJ just overrule what has been agreed, not just yesterday, but in any subsequent intergovernmental agreement? Was there any discussion at that meeting about the stresses and strains being caused in various countries by the restrictive nature of the convergence criteria? I am thinking of course of the lorry strikes which caused so much difficulty in France and elsewhere.
Finally, was the Chancellor helped at all in his negotiations by the intervention in our internal affairs by M. Santer when he said, as reported in the Financial Times yesterday, that pressure from the City and big business would force Britain into a single currency irrespective of any sceptical views?
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, I am not going to become involved in the internal affairs of other members states on matters of employment and the like. That we firmly believe is a matter for individual states. As I believe that to be right when they look at us, obviously it is right for us, when we look at them.
So far as concerns the ECJ, the court would be extraordinarily creative were it to overturn the clear specifications of the Maastricht Treaty, the protocol, and many of the agreements that have been made since. One cannot compare that with its decision about the 48-hour week. It would be of much greater significance than that as a legal precedent. Having read all the material, I believe that were the court to take the view, for example, that Britain did not have an opt out so far as concerns penalties, it would probably be more creative than any court has ever been, because the opt out is clear on the face of all the documents, and in all the agreements that my right honourable friend the Chancellor has reached. It is clear what it is an opt out from. It includes the fines.
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On the first part of the noble Lord's question, my understanding—all these matters are complex, but I am pretty certain that my memory is right on this—is that when a member decides that it wishes to join, it is not just its say so, there has to be a decision by the other 14 that it can join. That is the point to which I was referring earlier.
Lord Shaw of Northstead: My Lords, does my noble friend realise that we welcome the Statement specifically because it is the custom to have Statements whether or not there is much to say? There would have been severe criticism had that practice not been followed on this occasion. I welcome the fact that the negotiations show every appearance of taking longer and being more drawn out than first envisaged, because is it not true that the longer the negotiations go on the more the problems are teased out and the greater is the likelihood that a proper, long-term, satisfactory solution will be arrived at? Nothing could be worse than having a botched-up hasty decision. The longer the negotiations go on the more important it is that we in this country make our presence felt to ensure that all the problems are properly analysed and that proper solutions are found. To that end, will my noble friend take back the feelings—I hope from the whole House—that we are entirely behind the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the negotiations that they are at present conducting?
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for his support of my position here and, more importantly, the position of our right honourable friends the Chancellor and the Prime Minister. It is vital in this country's interests that we get right all the issues surrounding the euro. It is a huge step for the European Community to take, either in whole or in part, to move to a single currency. It is a step which, if it were not taken carefully and with many safeguards, could lead easily to disaster. That disaster would encompass the economies of us all, whether we are in or whether we are out. That is why we are certain that we must be in all these negotiations, ensuring that the conditions for the euro are commonsense and stable, and that Britain's voice, as an important player and contributor to the European budget, is heard throughout, and that our point of view is listened to. With my right honourable friend the Chancellor doing that, no one can have any doubt that our voice will be listened to.
Lord Bruce of Donington: My Lords, I have just one question for the Minister. Will the account of the proceedings at ECOFIN that the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave in his Statement be supplemented by an official communiqué as to what happened and to which we can refer? On the basis of experience it is not always the case that the Commission, for example, and some member states, agree with the versions of various conferences that we for our part, in good faith, have laid before Parliament. What means have we of verifying that other member states will agree with our Chancellor of the Exchequer's version of what happened?
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, as my right honourable friend said in the Statement, he will, in

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the usual way, be making a Written Answer giving more of the detail of various other aspects discussed and agreed to at the Council. So far as concerns a communiqué at the end of the Council, these are more in the nature of working meetings. The communiqué on these matters will come at the end of the Dublin Summit at the end of next week.

National Health Service (Primary Care) Bill [H.L.]
5.18 p.m.
Debate on Second Reading resumed.
Lord Dean of Harptree: My Lords, now that we return to the Bill, I should like to begin by paying a tribute to the men and women who work in the NHS and our private health services. The critics of the service are rarely silent. We are always being told that the NHS is in crisis; that it is starved of resources; and that morale is at rock bottom. Of course there are problems. There are bound to be problems in a service which is nationwide and extensive. Of course there are bound to be pressures. They are inevitable with a service which is open-ended but where resources are finite.
If one looks at the sensitive figures which most concern patients, there is a good story to tell. The number of treatments is substantially up. The trend of the waiting lists, although they fluctuate, is firmly down, particularly for those waiting for a year or more. Medical techniques are advancing all the time. There are more staff to carry out treatments, and all that is made possible by the Government's commitment to provide more money in real terms for the service each year. The announcement by my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer only the other day of a further £1.6 billion for the service next year is most welcome. At the helm of course, we have my noble friend the Minister and her colleagues in the Department of Health who provide such effective leadership to the service. We can be justly proud of our health services and their achievements. I am only sorry that we do not hear more about the success stories and the men and women who are responsible for them.
When I heard it announced in the gracious Speech that legislation will be introduced to improve and develop primary care services my first thought was, "Oh dear, not another reorganisation". But as I studied more fully what was intended it become clear that this was not another reorganisation. It is, in fact, legislation catching up with the tremendous developments that have taken place in primary care during recent years. The emphasis which appears in the White Paper is of more choice, more opportunity and more flexibility, as mentioned by my noble friend in her introduction.
The Bill follows logically from legislation on GP fundholding, which now covers half the population of the country. I am glad to see that it has the support of most organisations involved, including the British Medical Association and the Royal College of Nursing.
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They have some reservations and need clarification on certain points, but their support is clear. That is a good start for the Bill.
Primary care is, of course, the base of the pyramid. It may not be as dramatic as major operations, spare-part surgery and so forth, but care starts with the family doctor and the practice nurse and their team. I very much welcome the team-based approach in which all involved in primary care can work together for the good of the patients without barriers or demarcation lines. I am glad to see that the BMA has emphasised that very important point.
I also welcome the concept of pilot schemes under which different ideas can be carried out in different parts of the country. The noble Baroness, Lady Jay, had some reservations about the schemes and referred to flowers and weeds. My experience in my garden is that where there are flowers there will always be weeds, but it is the job of those concerned to ensure that the weeds are eradicated.
Concern has been expressed by the BMA that the Medical Practices Committee will find it difficult to ensure an equitable distribution of GPs throughout the country as it has no say in the pilot scheme. That point was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Walton, and it is important. I hope that my noble friend the Minister will be able to reassure the House in her reply. I also welcome the fact that participation in any of the schemes will be purely voluntary. No doctor or anyone else will be forced to try out new ways unless he or she wishes to do so.
I should be grateful if my noble friend the Minister would give clarification on three points. She mentioned the possibility of services in supermarkets. That is all to the good if it brings services closer to the patients. But there are obvious risks. We must be very careful to do nothing to weaken the doctor-patient relationship, which is of such great importance in our health services and gives great reassurance to patients.
I suggest that we must also ensure that doctors and others providing services outside their health centres retain full independence and clinical freedom and that they cannot be leant on by the owners of supermarkets. I believe that in the pilot schemes it will be necessary to avoid the duplication of services and equipment, which could be wasteful. Then there is a whole series of detailed points which will need careful consideration; for example, whether the practice notes are in the right place at the right time. I feel sure that my noble friend will be able to give reassurances on those issues.
The second point to which I wish to refer for clarification is the concept of practice-based contracts as distinct from contracts for individual GPs. I can quite understand that they could make it easier for other professionals, such as nurses, to be full members of the primary care team. I notice that both the BMA and the Royal College of Nursing mention those points. However, I hope that the concept of practice-based contracts will in no way undermine the position of GPs as independent contractors if they wish to remain in that position.

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Finally, for clarification I refer to nurses. I must admit to your Lordships that I have a soft spot for nurses. And before that remark is misinterpreted, I should explain that my mother did VAD nursing during the First World War, after which she went up to Bart's to complete her training. She finished as a theatre sister before leaving to marry my father. I notice that the Royal College of Nursing welcomes practice-based contracts which it believes will allow nurses to become full partners in the primary care teams. It suggests that a senior nurse can be taken into a partnership where nurses are employed in a practice. The noble Baroness, Lady Robson, mentioned that matter too. But the college also makes the point that as nurses become increasingly important in the primary care team there should be access for senior nurses to the National Health Service superannuation scheme. I hope that Her Majesty's Government will give sympathetic consideration to those points, particularly in view of the growing importance of nursing in the primary care team.
With those reservations, I warmly welcome the Bill and I hope that it will receive a speedy passage through Parliament.
5.27 p.m.
Lord Campbell of Croy: My Lords, I, too, thank my noble friend Lady Cumberlege for her very clear explanation of the proposals in the Bill. The principles appear to have been agreed by the medical profession, dentists and pharmacists. They are also supported generally by organisations representing the public and consumers. I believe that all of them have some issues to raise and no doubt they will arise at a later stage of the Bill's passage.
I welcome the Bill because it will introduce more flexibility. Schemes will be voluntary. The status quo will still be an option and, as I understand it, GPs and others can revert to the existing arrangements if they do not wish to continue with a scheme.
I have a few general comments to make. The first relates to pilot schemes. Their effectiveness can be judged by a form of evaluation, which seems to be implicit in the Bill. Clause 5 requires the three Secretaries of State for England, Scotland and Wales to conduct at least one review of every pilot scheme. That may be a check on how the scheme is proceeding. Will there be an evaluation of a scheme after it has been operating for a significant period? If so, how will judgments be made and against what criteria, or will they simply be carried out by comparing one pilot scheme with another? Will there be a time limit—for example, several years—in which an evaluation has to be carried out? I do not expect my noble friend to reply to all these questions this evening; indeed, there will be plenty of time for her to let us know the answers in due course.
I turn now to another matter. The Bill aims to introduce more flexibility into the arrangement for recruitment and employment of GPs. GP partners will have more say in selecting candidates to fill vacancies in their group practices. It seems that flexibility is also to be introduced in the appointments of GPs to
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single-handed practices, ensuring that a suitable person is appointed. I am very glad of that. I am also glad to note that the British Medical Association, the BMA, welcomes the Bill and the proposed changes.
There is one point to which I should like to draw attention and it is one which I believe the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, mentioned. The BMA is concerned that the Medical Practices Committee (the MPC—a statutory body responsible for the distribution of GPs throughout the country) will no longer cover GPs taking part in these pilot schemes. That may distort recruitment and replacement patterns and lead to a high proportion of doctors in some areas and low proportions in others. Is there any reason why the MPC should not still consider the whole country, including the proposed pilot schemes?
When I was a Member of another place, I was informed in the 1960s by the BMA that there was a higher proportion of doctors in relation to the population in my constituency in Northern Scotland, where my home is, than anywhere else in the country. I should add that that was before, not after, I was responsible as Secretary of State for the reorganisation of the NHS in Scotland by putting through Parliament the Scottish Bill in 1971, a year before my late colleague, Lord Joseph, presented the reorganisation Bill for England and Wales.
However, it was not as a Secretary of State responsible for health, but as a patient that I have had my main contacts and experience with the health services for well over 50 years. I hope that the House will bear with some personal particulars. I am by no means the only Member of your Lordships' House who has had such experiences. I was wounded when I was 23 and I emerged from St. Bartholomew's Hospital when I was 25. I still could not walk but I was successful in the Foreign Office exam and the subsequent medical examination. I guessed that I had passed the medical when the chairman of its small board said, as I was leaving, that as a diplomat, of course, I would not need to walk or stand. That may have been so then, but it was not so in later years. An embellishment has been added since that time—an uncharitable one—that the Foreign Office would have expected me to lie, if not stand or walk.
However, I should make it clear that in the subsequent four years I worked personally at times for the then Foreign Secretary, Mr. Ernest Bevin, and the Minister of State (later Secretary of State for Scotland) Mr. Hector McNeil, in London and at the United Nations in New York. I had the greatest respect for both as men of integrity. I was not asked to dissemble in any way during my period of service.
When vesting day for the NHS arrived in March 1948, I was working in the Foreign Office and having to go for treatment early every day to Westminster Hospital. Both in my medical contacts then and in Whitehall, I heard a view being expressed that the cost of the new NHS would in time decrease because the nation's health would be so improved. Well, of course, the opposite has happened. But those who were making that prediction were not taking into account the advances to be made in medical science, new operations,

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new treatments and drugs. In addition, people have been living for longer and needing medical services in their old age. It is worth recording from those days that, from the very start of the NHS in the late 1940s, contracts have been made by the NHS with private contractors—indeed, that happened from the very beginning—for supplying services in primary care. There is nothing new in that.
I have been an NHS patient since 1948, in hospital operations and outside treatment, including periods when I was a Cabinet Minister and, before that, a junior Minister. I happen to be of an age to have been a continuing long-term patient of the health service since its inception. That is why I speak from my personal experience.
During the whole time that I spent as a patient in St. Bartholomew's, which was evacuated in wartime from Smithfield to the Home Counties, I was warned that various troubles would arise in later life. However, if you have had a bullet through the middle—in the front and out of the back—that is not surprising; indeed, one is simply lucky to be alive.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: Yes.
Lord Campbell of Croy: I know that the noble Lord had a similar experience.
However, those people were right. Troubles have arisen ever since. In fact, GPs, mostly in Scotland, have had to cope, usually at short notice; but, in direct touch with St. Bartholomew's and with copies of my hospital notes. They have instilled the greatest confidence. The fact that the GPs and the BMA welcome the Bill reinforces my support for it.
5.36 p.m.
Baroness Eccles of Moulton: My Lords, I warmly welcome the proposals in this Bill and would like to thank my noble friend Lady Cumberlege for her very clear introduction. First, I should apologise to the House in that, I am sorry to say, I shall have to leave before the end of the debate. I am meant to be attending a workshop on how to manage change in the NHS.
The Bill allows the primary sector of the NHS to develop in innovative ways and with the emphasis on voluntary choice according to local need rather than by prescriptive means. It has become increasingly obvious that communities benefit most from a primary care service which is tailored to reflect their needs and that these needs can differ widely. The way in which primary services can be provided most effectively in a rural area, a small town, a seaside resort or a large and complex urban setting varies enormously.
Even in the part of London that I am concerned with—the boroughs of Ealing, Hammersmith and Fulham, and Hounslow—where you could expect a degree of uniformity of need, there is great diversity. Nearly 30 per cent. of our population belong to ethnic minorities. Also, some practices have a quarter of all patients over the age of 65, while in other practices they represent about 10 per cent. or under. Other factors
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which place additional and complex demands on the primary care services are a highly mobile population, many homeless people and a large number of refugees. Some practices provide a very high level of care tailored to meet the needs of AIDS and HIV positive patients.
A single national contract for all 30,000 GPs has been the longstanding link between the independent contractor and the health service, and this has provided the mechanisms by which the GP can be paid for services rendered to the individual patient, who, in turn, receives these services free at the time of use. However, the National Health Service has now reached a point of maturity and experience in its 50 years of history where it can respond more accurately and effectively, through locally agreed contracts, to both the needs of our diverse population across the country and also to the different aspirations of GPs.
It is worth spending a moment on how it is that we have arrived at a time when we can be considering the changes that this Bill proposes. It is not a bolt from the blue, in three respects. First, if we go back six years, the 1990 legislation, which arose out of two White Papers (Better Health and Working for Patients), introduced changes to the GP contract. Principally this was a departure from payment received based on items of service to capitation and target payments, and also indicative budgets for drugs were introduced at that stage. The other very important factor was the introduction of fundholding.
Secondly, a keystone of the current health service strategy is the primary care led NHS. As the purpose of this strategy is to ensure that services are organised around the needs of patients, it is important that GPs are placed in the best position to be co-ordinators of their care.
Thirdly, the Government have gone through an exhaustive process of repeated consultation, before publishing the White Paper. The Minister has already spoken of this. To recap briefly, the listening exercise was mounted in the early spring of this year. Views were sought from a cross-section of those both working in and receiving services from the NHS, including patient representative groups, and in areas where change would or could improve service. After that first stage the Government produced a document entitled Primary Care: the Future which sets out the results of this listening exercise.
This document was in its turn widely consulted upon. Both consultations were supported by road shows which made sure that very many GPs and others in the NHS contributed their ideas about how best to develop services to meet future needs. Finally, distilling the views and opinions gathered, the White Paper with which we are so familiar entitled Choice and Opportunity, was published.
In making provision for a wider variety of ways of organising primary care than the current law permits, this Bill not only makes it possible to adapt to diverse needs, but it also helps to meet the aspirations of GPs and other professionals working in primary care better than the limited range of options available at present.

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Young doctors, whether male or female, like so many other young people, have more varied career aspirations than used to be the case, and are often not wanting to make the traditional commitment involved in joining a partnership which, whether it is of GPs or any other professional group, is a considerable legal and financial as well as day-to-day working commitment. The Bill recognises this change in outlook of GPs, and other professionals working in primary care. As the noble Baroness, Lady Robson, has already said, it will make general practice a much more attractive career for the highly regarded young female GP, who simply may not want to combine both bringing up her children and the 24 hour commitment that the national contract requires.
Another fundamental change that has occurred in recent years is that the range of staff working in primary care has significantly widened. That fact has already been mentioned by previous speakers. Many practices now have attached to them a practice nurse, nurse practitioners, midwives, health visitors, district nurses, community psychiatric nurses, physiotherapists and social workers. That is not an exhaustive list. With this wide range of skills many practices can provide far more comprehensive care for a community than used to be the case. The option of practice-based contracts proposed in the Bill allows such multi-professional groups to be formally recognised as providing an extended range of services for the community.
Another important aspect of the Bill is the voluntary nature of the proposals. It does not demand changes in the way in which primary care is provided at the moment, and in that sense the Bill poses no threats. In many localities the present system works well and does not need to change. However, through the "try it and see" pilot schemes there is scope for innovation and experimenting with different combinations of service to reflect local needs. Appropriate new ways of working will emerge through the pilot schemes, which have already been much discussed. These pilots will be thoroughly evaluated before they can become permanent. Of course, the necessary mechanisms are being put in place to make sure that primary care is properly managed and delivered while these local variations are being developed.
There are exciting and challenging prospects before us. In a sense the primary sector is being given its head and is being asked to find solutions in a non-prescriptive environment. However, expectations are high amongst those who set the ground rules, those who provide the service, and not least those who receive it—the patients. This is an opportunity not to be missed.
5.45 p.m.
Lord Ewing of Kirkford: My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Eccles of Moulton, apologised for the fact that she could not be present for the closing speeches of the debate. The noble Baroness made it clear that she should be attending a workshop on managing change in the NHS.
In this country a whole industry has grown up around managing change in the NHS, such is the pace and the constant nature of change in the NHS. Here I declare
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my interest as chairman of Fife Healthcare NHS Trust. If I were to attend every seminar and workshop to which I am invited I should be lucky to spend one weekend at home and perhaps Christmas Day and New Year's Day, such is the constant change that is taking place in the NHS. I am not by nature a sceptic. I like to think of myself—generously, I suppose—as a forward looking person. However, I hope your Lordships will forgive me if I bring to this debate a healthy helping of scepticism.
However, I shall relieve your Lordships of any anxiety that I shall regale the House with my experience of the NHS because most of my wounds were self-inflicted and recounting them harms me more than those listening to me. But I was interested to hear the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Croy, as I recall having served, in 1971 and 1972, on the committees to which he referred on the reform of the National Health Service in Scotland, which was undertaken a year before the NHS was reformed in England and Wales. Since that day I have never ceased to wonder and gaze in amazement at health Ministers—I include myself because I was formerly a Minister responsible for health in Scotland—who stand at a government Dispatch Box and present a proposal on change in the NHS and say with absolute and firm conviction, "This is the way ahead". I have experienced so many ways ahead that I am beginning to long for the road back.
The noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Croy, mentioned a 1971 reorganisation. It is worth recalling that until 1971 the health service in the United Kingdom was fragmented. The hospital service was managed separately from the general practitioner service. The preventive medicine sector was not managed by the health service at all but by the education authorities of local authorities which were responsible for the immunisation programme. The effect of the noble Lord's reform was to bring all three wings together and introduce an integrated health service. That was the way ahead. That reform lasted for nine years. That is not bad. It was pretty much a record.
Then in 1980 there was a further reform. A bit of fragmentation was reintroduced. There were stand alone district general hospitals designated as directly managed units and funded directly by the health boards that had been set up under the 1971 reform. Directly managed units became the way ahead. That reform lasted three or four years and then we had another reform. NHS trusts and the internal market were then introduced.
Today I was delighted to hear my honourable friend in another place announce that an incoming Labour government would abolish the internal market. NHS trusts and the purchaser/provider principle were established. A whole industry of negotiating contracts has developed. It has become so complex that to add further negotiation and further contract activity through the powers proposed in this Bill seems to me to be complicating an already complicated situation. The introduction of trusts and the purchaser/provider arrangement was "the way ahead". Then we come to this new, primary care led initiative. We have gone through

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fashions in the National Health Service. Every new fashion is to be the future upon which we build the NHS. The fashion now is primary care led initiatives.
There is a very strong movement among general practitioners in this country—I address this point particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Walton—which believes that health boards and health authorities should be abolished, and that all the funds should go to general practitioners. The feeling is that the whole system in this country should be primary care led. That is very much how the American system works. In my view it would be a very dangerous road to follow.
I have never been a supporter of GP fundholding. I see a great many dangers in it. We may talk about a two-tier health service. In GP fundholding there lies the distinct possibility that a two-tier health service will be created. I am not at all certain that that is not the purpose in any case. If a two-tier health service is created, in all honesty, and realistically, it is very easy to move the top tier of such a service into the private sector and leave the bottom tier with the NHS. As Nye Bevan would have said, there are familiar echoes from the past. There could be a return to former conditions, to when those who could not afford treatment simply had to make do with a much reduced level of care when they were ill.
I enter the debate on these proposals because Part II of the Bill amends the 1978 Act in Scotland and applies the Bill's provisions to the health service in Scotland. It proposes that pilot schemes should be established and then be assessed. My plea to the Minister is that the pilot schemes should be allowed to run, not just for a few months but for at least 18 months, so that they can be properly assessed; and that there should be no thought at all of trying to apply this principle to every area throughout the country—I refer to Scotland in particular. Of all four countries in the United Kingdom Scotland has the greatest number of large rural areas. This principle cannot be applied in the same way in those rural communities as it would be in the inner cities.
Members of this House talk of flexibility, as does the Minister. That is an under-statement. These measures will require great flexibility in different parts of Scotland, and indeed in the rest of the United Kingdom. In rural areas in Scotland we already have what are called dispensing practices: the general practitioner will diagnose the illness and prescribe the medicine, and will then dispense the medicine. That already happens in parts of Scotland. It is a very good model which could be applied elsewhere.
In all honesty, the whole question of salaried GPs attracts me. As chairman of a healthcare trust I have given it considerable thought. I would certainly not object to employing salaried GPs in my trust. I am not sure that the Government have thought the issue through properly in relation to their view of the health service. When in a few weeks' time my noble friend Lady Jay is a health Minister with responsibility for this matter, I believe that she will find the prospect of trusts employing salary earning GPs to be a very attractive proposition. I certainly do, but I am not sure that the Government have thought it through. I say this in
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relation to the general practitioner service and the resources that are made available for primary care led medicine.
The Government will need to be more forthcoming on a proposal that is not contained in the Bill but, if implemented, would be devastating in terms of funding for NHS trusts. I refer to the idea that is being widely canvassed that general practitioners should have the right to buy health centres. If it were implemented, the impact on National Health Service funding in Scotland would be devastating because of the way in which such properties are valued. They are not valued by the district valuer or by any professional valuer. In Wales they are valued by the Welsh Office; in England by the Department of Health; and in Scotland by the Scottish Office. However, when they come to be sold, it is done under the value given by the district valuer employed by the local authorities. In our experience the difference between the value placed on the property by the Scottish Office and that placed on it by the district valuer is very, very substantial indeed. There is an impact on funding because the loss has to be borne by the NHS trust which owns the property. Sums of many millions of pounds are involved. If the Government believe for a minute that a primary care led service can be run while at the same time the assets are sold off in this way—in the same way as council houses were sold, with massive discounts—I can tell the Minister that those two ideas will not work together.
Finally, much has been said about the voluntary approach outlined in the Bill. All my experience is that we soon move from a voluntary to a compulsory approach. Over the years I have seen aspects of policy introduced on a voluntary basis and then, because the policy was not being adopted by people in line with the wishes of the government of the day, we soon moved from the voluntary approach to compulsory imposition.
These changes badly need to be piloted and assessed over a very long period. Not only do they need to be assessed over a long period, but the results and outcome of that assessment need to be reported to both Houses of Parliament, and a meaningful debate needs to take place on the assessment.
I leave these thoughts with the Minister and with your Lordships. I hope that my remarks have sounded a few warning notes and made a few welcoming sounds, but, above all, sounded a number of notes of caution.
5.58 p.m.
Lord Colwyn: My Lords, before starting my remarks I must apologise to the House on two counts: first, for not following the argument of the noble Lord, Lord Ewing—I wish to say something constructive about the Bill—and, secondly, for the fact that I missed the opening speeches of my noble friend the Minister and the noble Baroness, Lady Jay. I declare an interest as a practising dental surgeon. That was the reason that I was late.
Whoever was responsible for fixing the order of speakers for this debate has lumped the two dentists together. I have not discussed the debate with my noble

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friend Lady Gardner. She has wide experience of dentistry and other aspects of the health industry and I am quite glad that I speak before she does.
The Bill proposes that the piloting of local commissioning of dental and medical services will start in April 1998—almost 50 years since the National Health Service was born. Since then, dentists have been working within the general dental services and have seen considerable improvements in the oral health of the nation. Quality dentistry has been brought to the whole population. The number of people with no natural teeth has fallen consistently and it is predicted that in just over 10 years' time, only 10 per cent. of adults in the UK will have no natural teeth. There have been considerable improvements in decay rates for patients of all ages, but especially for children over recent years. Much of this improvement is due to the hard work of dentists and to successive governments who have found the money necessary to pay for the service.
Noble Lords will have seen the recent publicity that in some parts of the country there is now a worrying trend towards an increase in tooth decay in children, except where water supplies have been fluoridated. Now is not the time to debate fluoridation, but it is interesting to note that, for example, five year-old children in non-fluoridated Bolton have around four times more tooth decay than five year-olds living in fluoridated south Birmingham.
There are still areas of poor oral health. A recent survey by the British Fluoridation Society—of which I am a vice-president—showed a high proportion of children in the north west of England with dental disease. That pattern is repeated in parts of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. There are also places, especially in the south of England, where no dentist is available. To address those problems, the Bill proposes to introduce local commissioning of dental services to be known as personal dental services. They will run alongside existing dental services but will address specific problems where they exist.
The White Paper which preceded the Bill was called Choice and Opportunity. There will be a choice for dentists in whether they stay in the present system or move into a new way of working.
Sadly, many NHS dentists are having to leave the health service and, as a result, an increasing number of patients are unable to find an NHS dentist. I know that my noble friend will have figures which show that there is an increasing number of treatments provided within the NHS, but dentists and patients know that in reality there is a worsening problem of lack of access to NHS dental treatment affecting patients in affluent parts of the country as well as in poorer rural areas and inner cities. Seventy health authorities have applied for the Government's Access Fund which is only available in areas where there are serious problems. Twenty-two authorities have been successful and I am informed that this fund will be more substantial to cover more authorities next year. Perhaps my noble friend could confirm that when she replies to the debate.
Many of my dental colleagues have a strong commitment to the health service, but the fees which (not allowing for inflation) have only just returned to
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1991 levels are inadequate to meet practice expenses. In real terms they are too low. Other healthcare professionals are provided with premises, equipment and staff. Only NHS dentists have to provide those personally at their own expense and although provision is made for the expenses within the fee scale, the costs of premises, equipment and staff are now at 1996 levels, funded by fees which are still at a 1991 level. NHS dental practices must be provided with more resources if NHS patients are to be provided with up-to-date technology and materials.
However, the Bill will certainly provide opportunities for dentists to develop new services with their patients and, despite the resource allocation, I hope that the profession will see these changes as opportunities rather than threats.
The Bill marks the start of a new chapter in NHS dentistry. Noble Lords will be aware that the past five years have not been happy ones for my colleagues. Late in 1991, the Government realised that the budget for dentistry was running out of control and that there would be a considerable overspend for dental services. Through no fault of the profession who had been encouraged by the department to register as many patients as possible, it was decided in July 1992 to cut fees by 7 per cent. That caused considerable distress and started a dispute which was only ended this summer.
In April 1995, the Minister for Health sent an invitation to representatives of the General Dental Services Committee of the British Dental Association, which represents all high street dentists, to take part in talks with a view to introducing short-term reforms within the general dental services. The negotiations were difficult and protracted, but it is to the credit of both sides that they came to an agreement which was announced by the Minister on 12th June this year.
Those reforms should bring considerable improvements to the dental care of children. The dispute with the profession was formally called off and the overspend which occurred between 1991 and 1993 was written off by the Government. The end of the dispute saw a welcome new spirit of co-operation with the profession which has led to the publication of the Bill.
During the period of the dispute, both the Government and the profession entered into a large consultation exercise, starting with the fundamental review of dental remuneration by Sir Kenneth Bloomfield which was published in January 1993. Dentistry was investigated by the health Select Committee in another place which reported in June 1993 and finally the Government published the Green Paper in July 1994.
All those proposed a solution to the problems of dentistry based on the local purchaser/provider approach initiated in the National Health Service in the early 1990s. The proposed change was not universally popular with the profession, indeed only a third of local dental committees expressed an interest in taking part in pilot studies. Many misgivings were voiced both about the proposed pilot studies and the final shape of a new local system. I am glad to see that the profession's misgivings have been addressed in the Bill.

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What the consultation period showed was that the loss of morale in the profession was not just about money but a perceived lack of security and stability. During the consultation, many dentists proposed improvements to the services they could offer their patients and new ways of being paid for providing them. The Bill gives them the opportunity to develop these new services while retaining the choice to provide dentistry for their patients within the general dental services, as they have done successfully over the past 50 years.
In conclusion, I had intended to say something in support of community pharmacies and urge the Government to resist the proposed abolition of resale price maintenance on over-the-counter medicines but it has been well covered by the noble Baroness, Lady Robson, and must wait until a further stage of the Bill. I welcome the Bill and the opportunities it gives for improving services to patients and providing stability and security for the dental profession.
6.7 p.m.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, I, too, formally welcome the Bill. I find it interesting that it is supposedly full of new ideas, particularly the voluntary basis attached to them. I have received briefs and comments which I shall mention rather than reading them to your Lordships. They come from medical, dental, pharmaceutical, county council and consumer organisations. There is a wealth of advice and information in all of them, and I agree with some points but there are some with which I strongly disagree. I therefore thought that I would pick out relevant points.
All the comments emphasise the need for consultation. Like my noble friend Lord Colwyn, another dentist, I believe that the whole national health dental system went wrong on consultation. The supposed consultation did not really result in what the dentists wanted. At the time of the introduction of the present contract, which has proved such a disaster, 63 per cent. of dentists voted against it but the elected members of the General Dental Services Committee of the British Dental Association agreed with the Government who introduced it that it was desirable for dentists. Yet 63 per cent. of dentists voted strongly against it. It is not surprising that it proved to be unsuccessful.
The points made about people's problems in obtaining national health dental treatment are real. When I was on the regional health authority, we had to introduce a salaried service in certain parts of Essex where no national health treatment at all was available. Yet we had an obligation under the national health regulations to provide dental treatment.
When people consult, whether in dentistry or other spheres, it is important to ensure that the consultation produces answers from the people who should be consulted. In dentistry the General Dental Practitioners Association represents a great body of dentists whose views are never considered because the British Dental Association seems to be treated as the only body to be considered.
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As to the pilots of new ideas, I ask the Minister to clarify one point. The noble Lord, Lord Walton, referred to the possibility of doctors and dentists providing services together, but as I read the Bill it seemed that the first clause prohibited that. Clause 1(2) states:
"A pilot scheme may not combine arrangements for the provision of personal medical services with arrangements for the provision of personal dental services".
I should like that point to be clarified because, like the noble Lord, Lord Walton, I believe it would be desirable to combine the services. I think the opposition to this goes back a very long way. When I started in practice, 35 or more years ago, I remember that you were not allowed, as a dentist, to have your surgery above or below a doctor. However, over the years that has been relaxed. Closer working between doctors and dentists would be very desirable.
Doctors in those days were pretty horrific. I remember phoning a local doctor to say that I had a patient in for an extraction who had a history of rheumatic fever and, of course, there was a great danger, in extracting a tooth, that this patient would develop a sub-acute bacterial endocarditis. Therefore, there should be penicillin cover for it. I was in the East End of London, and the doctor said, "Oh nonsense, nonsense. People in this area are tough and rheumatic fever is everywhere. Oh no, I would not consider that." I really was quite shocked. We ended up giving the penicillin to the patient ourselves because my Australian training was such that we would not have gone ahead without it.
Fortunately the standard of general practice—medical and dental—has improved over the years. We have heard many favourable references to the Medical Practices Committee but I think they should be looking into things more thoroughly than they do. I just offer this for consideration. There are many areas that are referred to as closed areas or intermediate areas and yet I keep meeting people who cannot get on to a doctor's list in these areas. In some of the smarter parts of London if you have a smart address they do not want you as a national health patient unless you can convince them that you are the housekeeper or the au pair. That is not good enough. There is also, I believe, a point at which it just pays a doctor to have a list of a certain size so that he has all the advantages without any of the unnecessary work. Certainly in dentistry I am told the same thing: there is rate support for your practice if you have a national health practice, so many practitioners just take enough patients to obtain rate support without making a proper and full input into the health service. These are abuses of the national health system which should not be continued.
In my day everyone was terrified of a salaried service for dentists but I think that times have changed and people are now willing to look at that. I am not at all in favour of the suggestion made by the Association of County Councils that they would like to run the health services. I would strongly oppose that because I believe that local authorities have more than enough to cope with. They have no understanding of the enormous task involved in taking on the running of the health service, which is a massive system. I would not like to see the day come when people have to choose between

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emptying the dustbins or providing better medical services. It is far better to have social services as they are now, run by the local authorities, and good consultation with those running the medical services, but I would certainly not support the view that has come from the county councils that there may be a role for them in running the health services. The primary care team is most important and the sole paymaster should be the National Health Service.
The pharmacists have put forward two points: the first relates to retail price maintenance, as mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Robson, and the second is their feeling that it is most surprising that the Bill allows everyone except the pharmacists and the opticians to produce and initiate a pilot scheme. They feel that this must be an oversight. They would like to be able to have this opportunity, particularly as the role of the community pharmacist has enlarged so greatly and pharmacists are often now the first stop for patients. They relieve the general practitioners of a great deal of work. They are often much more accessible at any hour of the day or night. Pharmacists suggest that perhaps pilot schemes might be considered under which they could visit people in their homes or could go to old people's homes to visit groups of people who might need medicines and to give advice. Again that might lift some burden from the doctors.
The position of general practitioners is already changing and there is an increasing collaboration between general practitioners and consultants. The noble Lord, Lord Ewing, mentioned that he would like to employ general practitioners. I would like to say, as Chairman of the Royal Free Trust, that we do that already. We have general practitioners who come to the accident and emergency department, on a salaried basis, a sessional basis. Of course this may be a central London problem because in central London so many people who should go to a general practitioner go instead to their local casualty or accident and emergency department. The doctors are invited in by the hospital to do work and fortunately many have taken this up. They take off some load by treating cases which are primary care cases but which have presented themselves at the hospital.
Then there is the other side where the consultant goes to the general practitioner's surgery. We have this in ENT, gynaecology and skin specialisms. This again is very beneficial because it is often much easier for the patient to be with the general practitioner than to have to go to the hospital.
A more recent development is tele-medicine, where the patient is with the doctor in his or her own surgery but has a consultation by modern technology through a screen. Digital imaging is so good. I saw this in Boston but it is in operation now in the UK.
In these ways, the traditional boundaries are gradually merging and being broken down. The days when a general practitioner had paper and a phone as his only tools have quite gone. We see more and more packages of care being formed around the individual. The aim is to have greater continuity of care and better care for the patient.
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I should like to comment briefly on some of the points that have been made. The noble Baroness, Lady Jay, spoke of fundholding and the fact that a statement had been made opposing fundholding. But I notice that the BMA, in their report, are very much in favour of fundholding. They say:
"We are proud of the key role played by enthusiastic and committed individual GPs in driving the NHS forward through commissioning groups, fundholding and total purchasing, or in providing enhanced care through a wide variety of innovative schemes and the development of team work and appropriate skill-mix".
So the BMA is in favour of fundholding and I think that should he pointed out.
Baroness Jay of Paddington: Would the noble Baroness allow me to intervene? I do think that there is a slight confusion in the terminology. There is a difference, is there not, between the individual fundholder and the groups which the noble Baroness has rightly referred to: commissioning groups, total purchasing groups in which GPs work together as consortia rather than as individuals who may purchase services on behalf of their patients which are to the detriment of other patients. If commissioning groups work on behalf of all the patients in a locality then that is certainly to be welcomed.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that but I think the difference is a very fine line. If you are a single practitioner, practising on your own, the only way you could be vying with other people is by joining a consortium. If you are a large group practice, there are enough of you there to form your own group fundholding nucleus and you do not need to be part of a consortium. People have taken this phrase "consortium" simply as a politically acceptable term to cover what everyone else calls GP fundholding. In my view, GP fundholding means that the GP controls the budget and controls where the money is spent for patient care. In that sense I completely support it. I would like to see much greater control over treatment and cost of treatment exercised by the general practitioners as opposed to any other way. The personal doctor and the health team know the needs of the patient better than anyone else. I believe that if, instead of adopting the attitude that we are against GP fundholding, we had universal GP fundholding, we should not have a problem at all.
I have spoken about dentistry and finding a dentist, which again were points raised by the noble Baroness. The noble Baroness, Lady Robson, spoke about the Medical Practices Committee, which I have mentioned also. The noble Lord, Lord Dean, spoke of nurses. I should like to pay tribute to the nursing profession. They are the backbone of the health service and have done marvellous work. But, in raising the profile of nurses, as we have done through Project 2000—I am all for raising their academic status and their personal status—I am concerned that we may now have such a high entry qualification that many people who might wish to be nurses feel that they cannot enter the profession. In these days of Calman, when there are new methods for training medical consultants, junior doctors

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and nurses, it is time to consider improving the status of care assistants and bringing in a new structure for them and for those people who may not qualify to enter full nursing training. Perhaps there should be graduate nurses and nurses; or perhaps there should be some other way of dealing with the matter. But, if we lose any of those people who are genuinely dedicated to caring for others, that is not in our interest and I should be very sorry to see it.
The noble Lord, Lord Ewing, also dealt with GP fundholding and the two-tier structure. I accept that if everyone were in it, it would not be two tiered. That is a different issue.
I should like to comment on one or two of the points which came to me in the briefs. The Royal College of General Practitioners made some interesting points. It said that it considered it very important that people who were going to set up pilot schemes should be actively working in general practice as part of a primary health care team. It thought that it was very important that there should be an input from active general practitioners. It is indeed important. We do not want people who have retired and think that they might dabble in some new idea or people who are not currently in touch with treating patients. That feature is desirable.
It is also important that we should have the medical workforce properly distributed. Everyone is concerned about areas which are unattractive. Years ago in certain parts of Wales one could have nothing done in dentistry except an extraction. The dentist ran a Rolls Royce on the fact that everyone came to him just to have a tooth out. No one ever received any more treatment than that. He was the only dentist in the area. People had to pay for whatever treatment they had and he did very well out of it but nobody received any comprehensive dental health treatment.
I believe that we could use the carrot and stick and produce some form of incentive. Over the years incentives have been used to encourage people to practise in less attractive or less profitable areas. There should be some equivalent of the higher pay for antisocial hours or antisocial work that we see in other professions. Something of that type would help ensure that people practised in areas which may at the moment look less attractive to them.
I have covered most of the points that I wish to make, with the exception of a mention of the Consumers' Association, on which I shall pass just the briefest comment. As I gave way to the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, perhaps I may speak for just one more second. The Consumers' Association report makes the point about access that people should be able to have their choice of GP or dentist and the doctor/dentist should be able to have his choice of patient. However, it is sometimes very difficult to reconcile those two choices. The consumer interest, which is very real and concerns us all, is sometimes misguided. Trying to force a doctor or dentist to accept a patient is no way to build up a good and close patient-doctor/dentist relationship. There has to be voluntary acceptance on both sides that they are suited to one another and the practice must be the one
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that the patient wants to be with. I believe that insistence on any dentist or any doctor taking any patient would be very counter-productive. I hope that it will not happen.
6.24 p.m.
Baroness McFarlane of Llandaff: My Lords, I add my voice to those who welcomed the Bill. It reflects very ably the White Paper, Choice and Opportunity, and the aspiration in that paper to make arrangements for the delivery of primary care services more flexible, so that they are better attuned to local needs and circumstances.
The Second Reading of this Bill provides us with an opportunity to restate what may appear to be two very self-evident truths. One is that primary health care services are the foundation of our healthcare system, a foundation on which all the superstructure is built. The noble Lord, Lord Dean, referred to primary care services as the base of a pyramid.
Episodes of acute illness and the need for acute care services may be very dramatic but relatively infrequent episodes in the normal healthcare trajectory of an individual. They call for expert services. But the day to day healthcare of the nation over a much broader spectrum of provision belongs to primary care. I believe that we cannot stress too much the need for health promotion, preventive services, treatment of early deviations from normal health and long-term care. Those form the bedrock of our health services.
It follows that the roles of nurses, midwives and health visitors are of absolutely paramount importance in achieving the objectives of the health service. I welcome the tribute from the Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, in her introductory remarks, to the importance of nursing services. The White Paper itself pays tribute to them. It says:
"They have an equally important part to play in providing primary care and the changes proposed have implications for them both in their wider involvement in any pilots … [and] in the opportunities which different approaches may offer to develop further the team based approach which is essential to good quality primary care".
So I welcome the practice-based contracts which will allow nurses to become full partners in the primary healthcare team. It would be useful to have some clarification of how that might be worked out. I had not perhaps imagined it as had the noble Baroness, Lady Robson; namely, that a nurse might take the place of a practitioner in the team. Rather I thought that as a partner, she would offer services in line with her training and qualifications and as a full member of the team. But I welcome that opportunity.
Very briefly I shall deal with some of nurses' concerns about the Bill. Some of them relate to employment conditions. The more flexible employment opportunities would allow general practitioners to employ community nurses other than practice nurses—for example, health visitors. But in that event, issues of professional supervision and accountability need to be addressed. It is there that I believe that a senior nurse in partnership would commend itself as a solution. In terms of employment rights, the noble Baroness, Lady Robson, mentioned pension rights and having access to

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the National Health Service superannuation scheme. That is an element of employment rights that needs to be addressed as we go into this new era.
I welcome the pilot schemes and their evaluation. That seems to be a new trend in our way forward in the health service. But as we test those schemes, nurses will want to know what their employment rights will be if a pilot scheme fails. General practitioners and general dental practitioners are identified as qualified people to propose a pilot scheme. No mention is made of a nurse being able to propose such a scheme and it would be useful to have clarification on that point. Neither is there any indication that a nurse could apply to be a health service body, and that is another point on which nurses seek clarification.
The noble Baroness, Lady Robson, as always, spoke feelingly of the interests of nurses and raised the question of a need for the extension of prescribing rights. As we enter these experimental schemes it would be useful to know the extent to which any consideration has been given to the need to extend the prescribing rights of nurses.
Those are just some of the issues about which nurses have concern. I confess that I am watching the clock anxiously. I may be running out of the time I need to catch the last train to Manchester. I hope to stay until the end of the debate but, if I cannot, I ask the House to accept my apologies.
6.32 p.m.
Baroness Seccombe: My Lords, I wish to add my good wishes to this Bill which I welcome most warmly.
We are able to choose our doctor. Thankfully, most of us for practically all our lives only need treatment from the GP. The surgery is usually comparatively close to our home, so the more that can be achieved by local treatment the better. That can be of particular importance to those patients who are old and frail, to those unable to drive and to those whose condition is made worse by travel. We all know how a visit to a consultant can be a lengthy and tiring exercise.
So, under this Government, a primary care led NHS has moved from aspiration towards reality. Primary care professionals include GPs, dentists, community pharmacists, practice nurses and community nurses. Those professionals work in the community and are thus closest to patients and often know them well. That makes them best placed to meet patients' needs in the local setting.
This Bill will take forward primary care in the NHS. It follows extensive consultation within the NHS and enjoys the full support of the British Medical Association. As Dr. Sandy Macara, Chairman of the BMA, said on the "Today" programme on BBC Radio 4 on 15th October last:
"We, the BMA, are fully behind the Department of Health in exploring the possibilities for making the delivery of general practice and related services, family services, more readily available because that is bound, if we can find the right way of doing it, to give better value for money".
The success of GP fundholding, which gives GPs real budgets and thus real power to influence the pattern and quality of services, has fundamentally
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altered the balance of power within the NHS. It has improved the provision of local services and increased the decision-making power of professionals. It represents the most decisive shift of power in favour of medical professionals in the history of the health service. Today, over 50 per cent. of the population in England is served by a family doctor who is a GP fundholder. By next April, that will reach almost 60 per cent.—over 15,000 GPs.
A report on GP fundholding by the independent Audit Commission earlier this year concluded that all fundholders have secured some benefits for their patients and some have secured spectacular benefits. Fundholding allows GPs to be innovative in the way they plan services, allowing them, for example, to hold outreach clinics by consultants in their surgeries or, as has happened in various places, keeping or re-opening cottage hospitals. Since the scheme began in April 1991, it has been broadened by the Government. Community fundholding allows those GPs who wish to, to opt to buy a more limited range of services for their patients. Total purchasing allows those GPs who wish to, to purchase all services for their patients. A primary care led service is not about developing primary care to the detriment of other parts of the NHS; it is about improving the whole service in a way which reflects the needs of patients.
In October 1995 my right honourable friend Gerald Malone, Minister of State for Health, began an extensive series of consultative meetings across the country listening to primary care professionals. The purpose of those meetings was to identify obstacles to the further development of primary care and to agree a shared agenda for overcoming them. The result was the publication of Primary Care: The Future in June of this year. It summarised the results of Mr. Malone's meetings and set out an agenda for the way forward. A further round of consultations followed which culminated in the publication of the White Paper, Choice and Opportunity, which explained the Government's proposals.
The main aim of the general practice aspects of the legislation is to enable new approaches to contracting for general practice to be developed locally, piloted and then evaluated. That is intended to encourage local people to put forward proposals on different contractual arrangements which could better suit their circumstances and the needs of the service in their locality. Seizing the new opportunities presented by this legislation will be entirely voluntary—yes, "voluntary".
I was interested to hear what the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, said in relation to commissioning. It seemed as though we were talking about more regulation and making sure that groups of practices got together and became commissions. But some doctors do not wish to become fundholders; my doctor is not a fundholder. The Government are keen to create choice and opportunity for health professionals, which are lacking in the socialist approach. Labour appears to want to take away that opportunity by ruling out the popular option of fundholding.

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Additionally, there will be no disadvantages for GPs who remain in the current contractual arrangements. Legislation should enable local flexibility but also ensure that there are adequate safeguards for both patients and professionals. Patients will retain their right to be registered and to choose their GP.
The proposed legislative changes will allow health authorities more flexibility when contracting for community pharmacy services. It will also abolish the anomaly which prevents community pharmacists from providing some services to patients across a health authority's borders. Patients will still have the right to take NHS prescriptions to the community pharmacy of their choice.
The Opposition suggested that the changes the Bill will herald could lead to commercialisation of NHS general practice. That is wholly wrong. Since 1948 general practitioners have been private contractors providing NHS services, and NHS pharmacy, for example, is already provided within commercial premises such as Boots. The fact that it is provided within Boots does not change the fact that it is still an NHS pharmacy.
The Bill is not about supermarkets—or any other commercial concern—providing private general practice; it is about making the provision of NHS general practice more flexible. It will remain free at the point of use and available on the basis of medical need, not the ability to pay. The Bill is not about changing the nature of general practice in the NHS. It is about helping GPs to remove the obstacles they have encountered in providing better services for their patients.
With structural change now behind us, the Bill demonstrates how the Government are working with NHS professionals to produce a positive agenda of service improvement that we all wish to see go from strength to strength. I support this Bill wholeheartedly and look forward to it being on the statute book.
6.41 p.m.
Lord Harmsworth: My Lords, may I briefly welcome this Bill. It seems to me to do two things which are eminently worth while and which follow a strong trend in healthcare legislation, certainly in the past six years and earlier still so far as general governmental approach to administrative handling is concerned.
The first principle, which I thoroughly commend and which is anyway now a necessity, is the enabling of total flexibility in the ways in which professionals in primary care can organise themselves. The second principle is that decision-making continues to be devolved to the people at the sharp end: those who know exactly what their local community requires and are best able to supply it. I have always considered the NHS to be almost over-endowed with talent. The move away from central control is to be welcomed. Giving groups of primary care professionals the chance to crack their own problems for themselves is to be welcomed even more.
One of the aspects I particularly like about the Bill is the way in which both the providers and the purchasers effectively have to work together in the making of a
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proposal to the Secretary of State. Between them, there will be little doubt as to what the community needs and whether the structure proposed by the providers will do the job. I am instinctively against pilot schemes. So often they become a technique for procrastination, or, dare I say it, an excuse for not thinking things through. Nevertheless, I must allow that so far as the diverse kinds of association envisaged in this Bill are concerned, at least initially, there is no practical alternative. I suspect that the schemes put forward in the first instances will be various and that it may take some time before patterns emerge which could provide models for other schemes.
This is a Bill that I trust your Lordships will welcome. I wish it a fair wind.
6.43 p.m.
Baroness Anelay of St. Johns: My Lords, like so many other speakers this evening, I welcome the Bill because I believe that it gives health professionals the opportunity to increase still further the range of primary healthcare services so that they match even more closely the needs of the people who live in the area they serve.
As the National Health Service has developed and managed change, it has had to respond to the advances in medical science and to the increased expectations of the public about the extent and quality of the service which they should receive. Throughout that period of change my focus of concern has always been to examine whether those patients who are particularly vulnerable have the quality of their care at the very least maintained during the period of change, and then improved as a consequence of any changes which become part of normal practice.
If I have to describe the kind of patients I mean, I would say that I am thinking of those who do not or cannot choose to seek healthcare outside the National Health Service and those who find it difficult to negotiate the highways and byways of medical bureaucracy. It may be that they are too ill to be able to make judgments about the care which they should seek or about the care offered them; or perhaps they simply lack either the information or the ability to be effective advocates on their own behalf. With the greatest respect to those noble Lords who are medical practitioners, my experience of working with the citizens advice bureaux and as a past member of my local community health council means that I am not always convinced that the medical profession is the patient's best advocate.
When I combine all these factors together I think in particular of those who are elderly and frail. Community care policies have made it possible for them to live in the familiar and reassuring surroundings of their own homes rather than entering a residential care home or nursing home until it is absolutely necessary. For them, the GP is almost always their first recourse when seeking medical care, and of course community care policies mean that they will now have recourse to the GP rather than the health services within residential care. So it is even more important than ever to them that the GP services are centres of excellence. I therefore concentrate my remarks today upon the services offered by GPs.

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When changes to primary healthcare provision were proposed my litmus test was, "Will they be of benefit to the elderly frail and, above all, how will they be protected during the period of change?" Any change, however beneficial it is intended to be, can seem threatening and can undermine one's confidence. It is vital that the elderly frail remain confident in the services provided by their general practitioner service. So does this Bill pass my litmus test? Yes, I believe that it does, and for several reasons. First, it underlines the Government's commitment to NHS care free at the point of use. Secondly, I welcome Clause 19, which re-states the patient's right to he registered with a GP and their right to choose their GP, whether or not that doctor is taking part in a pilot scheme. Where patients cannot be registered with a doctor of their first choice, the Bill maintains their right to be allocated to a practice.
Clause 19 also includes a provision for the Secretary of State to give directions imposing a limit on the number of patients to be accepted by a medical practitioner who provides personal medical services in accordance with Section 28C arrangements. I note what my noble friend Lady Gardner of Parkes said about the practice of some doctors maintaining a limited list for their own advantage. However, I think that it is also important to have this regulation so that we can be sure that GPs do not extend their patient lists beyond their capacity to serve them properly.
It is important that patients who are in practices which take part in pilot schemes can have confidence in the quality of their treatment. This Bill meets that point because Clause 4(1) provides that when the Secretary of State has approved a pilot scheme it must be implemented in the format that has been approved. GPs cannot alter it thereafter just to suit themselves. In addition, Clause 6 includes provisions to enable the Secretary of State to vary or terminate pilot schemes if they prove to be unsatisfactory.
Much mention has been made already this evening about the value of evaluating pilot schemes. Clause 5 promises that pilot schemes will have evaluation. I shall be interested to hear from my noble friend the Minister what methods will be used to judge the schemes and whether and how the views of patients will be sought. The Bill also provides reassurance about the quality of work to be carried out by those within the range of services provided in the pilot schemes. Clause 21 enables regulations to be made covering the liabilities and obligations of Part II general medical practitioners who either deputise for medical practitioners working under Part I of the 1977 Act or engage medical practitioners working under Part I of the Act to deputise for them. Clause 9 specifies that medical practitioners who provide medical services under a pilot scheme must be suitably qualified within the terms of Section 31(2) and Section 32 of the 1977 Act.
All patients will benefit from the development of a primary care service within the National Health Service, which embraces non-medical professionals, including nurses, therapists and managers. The advantages to patients will be that the staff will be more motivated and their skills further developed. There is also another consequence which sounds mundane but which is
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equally important to those who are not easily mobile. If you have access to a variety of medically related services in one area that are being managed by people working together as a team, then you do not have to find your way through the maze of healthcare provision to find the services you need. The stress placed on the elderly frail of having to deal with different experts, each with different methods of recording information and working to different timescales, should not be underestimated. Change will be a continuing necessity in the development of the National Health Service. I believe that the Bill gives primary healthcare practitioners the flexibility to develop vital new services while maintaining the essential character of British general practice, which provides the continuity of care and personal service which we all value so much. That special feature of primary healthcare is not only of benefit to us all, but is particularly important to the elderly frail. I therefore welcome the Bill and wish it a speedy passage.
6.50 p.m.
Lord Rea: My Lords, it is good to hear from the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, the first time for me. She obviously knows what she is talking about and I am sure that she will definitely be contributing to debates on health in future to the benefit of all of us. I must apologise for my voice, which has practically gone. I hope that it will just about last out for the next 10 minutes. It has been a very interesting debate. Almost all the points that I was going to make have been made by other speakers, but I shall just cover some of them and re-emphasise those which I believe to be the most important.
Any Bill which sets out to improve the effectiveness of primary healthcare should be welcomed. On these Benches we support moves in that direction. But as my noble friend Lady Jay and many others have pointed out, there are concerns about this Bill from a number of different directions. The noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, and her right honourable friend the Minister have tried to allay those concerns, but they persist. In summary, those concerns have the common theme that the proposed changes may undermine or damage the very features of British primary healthcare which makes it such a valuable and internationally admired institution. I refer to its improving coverage of the whole population. It is not perfect, as the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, and others have pointed out, but it is moving in the right direction.
There is also the right of patients to register with the doctor of their choice who will provide continuing care. The noble Baroness has reassured us about that a number of times, but we are still concerned about it. I refer also to the system of lifelong medical records which follow patients to all parts of the country wherever they move. As has been mentioned by a number of speakers, there is also the helpful gatekeeper role in which the hospital services are truly secondary care services with 90 per cent. of illness episodes dealt with in primary healthcare.

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Of course, everything in the garden is not as rosy as these principles might suggest. There is obviously need for continuous improvement, both to improve patient care and to maintain—and this is very important—morale and recruitment to the service. Some doctors do not provide care of the standard required—the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, pointed that out—despite the very great improvement which the noble Lord, Lord Walton, mentioned, as a result of vocational training over the past 25 years. Many practices still do not have the additional staff or premises to allow the comprehensive team approach of the best practices.
While on that point, I would like to voice a worry of the Royal College of Nursing. Why is the Bill about primary care and not about primary healthcare? The noble Baroness knows that good primary healthcare provides an ideal opportunity for preventive medicine and health promotion, and internationally in the World Health Organisation frontline care is known as primary healthcare. I believe that the title of the Bill should reflect the wide scope that primary healthcare involves.
While on the subject of nurses, I believe that the Bill does not fully emphasise the central role that nurses will play in future, and which they are increasingly playing in primary healthcare. They should be able to be partners—that is fine. This Bill enables that to be done. But why cannot they initiate pilot schemes themselves or form themselves into what are called National Health Service bodies? At the moment nurses tend to be bodies to be kicked about in the National Health Service, particularly when it comes to nationally agreed norms of pay.
The concerns about the Bill that have been brought to my attention, which have been mentioned by many other speakers, include first, and perhaps most important, the role of the Medical Practices Committee. I quote from its statement:
"its ability to distribute GPs fairly"
as has been mentioned by many speakers as the main strength of the current system—
"will be seriously impaired by the Bill and that patients' equity of access to GPs will be lost".
In addition, checks that the MPC,
"currently makes on every GP's application for inclusion before approval will not be done by the MPC but by inevitably inexperienced staff"
for each project.
In her reply can the noble Baroness address these important points. Amendments, which could give the MPC a more central part in decisions about pilot schemes, may well be proposed at later stages of the Bill.
Another important concern is that of resources. The sum of £6 million has been promised for the pilot schemes although I am not quite sure exactly from which section of the health service that money is to come. There is also the question of costs of continuing to operate the successful pilot schemes. Part II of the 1977 Act covers hospital and community services and Part I the primary care services—or have I got it the wrong way round? My understanding is that money to
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pay for these schemes will come from that part of the National Health Service which funds the hospitals and not from that part which funds primary care.
As other speakers have pointed out, and as the noble Baroness well knows, hospital budgets are extremely tight. That was pointed out particularly by my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Walton. In many cases those budgets are overspent. Can the Minister give us some information about how the successful schemes are to be paid for and out of what part of the National Health Service budget?
Another point was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Croy, and many other speakers: who will design and carry out the evaluation of pilot projects? For that to be properly done academic departments of health service research need to be involved at a very early stage. I believe that the thinking out of the scheme in the early stages was mentioned in particular by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Croy. I suggest that there needs to be an independent, well-qualified body to review all the proposals before they start. I hope that the Minister will be able to give us some information. Perhaps she will agree that such a body should be set up in order to advise Ministers.
The aims of each scheme need to be carefully stated so that their success or otherwise in improving care or professional morale can be properly measured. One of the criteria for acceptance of a pilot project should be that the services in that area are inadequate in some way at present. Such a scheme must augment, not detract from, the existing primary healthcare services in needy areas.
Other concerns have been mentioned. I refer to the need to include local authorities in the planning of pilot schemes. To answer the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, I do not think that local authorities have suggested taking over the running of parts of the National Health Service. That has certainly not been stated in any document that I have received. However, they do suggest that their departments of social services, housing, education and environmental services may all have important parts to play in the schemes that are to be evaluated. I hope that the schemes to augment the roles of pharmacists and optometrists and which seek to attract dentists to what perhaps I might call "under-dentisted" areas will be deemed possible. They would be very welcome from our point of view.
To take up the point raised by the Royal College of General Practitioners, I hope that at every stage the changes resulting from the Bill will build on what has been suggested by the experts—the doctors, nurses and dentists who are now working in primary healthcare and who know what the problems are. The White Paper states that consultations were held with a wide group of professionals concerned with primary healthcare. If that is the case, it is surprising that almost all of the relevant professions have serious reservations about the Bill. Under this Government, "consultation" tends to mean that plans are waved in front of people, but that those plans go ahead regardless of the suggestions made by those who have been "consulted".

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However, I agree that the Government have grasped one important point—the need to try out and to evaluate new schemes. We should be truly grateful for that, providing that the evaluations are carried out properly.
We can regard this House and the other place as a form of hatchery; the Bills that pass through being the eggs. Government Bills going through your Lordships' House can be thought of as a variety of different kinds of egg, ranging from good eggs, which are the necessary Bills which please most people, to rotten eggs, which are usually based on ideology and are to the detriment of many people. Your Lordships know that I am going to say that this Bill is a curate's egg—good in parts. Roget's Thesaurus provides an alternative meaning for the phrase "a curate's egg"—"room for improvement". In Committee, we shall try to bring about the improvements that are necessary.
As the noble Baroness, Lady Robson, said, this Bill will not come into force until after the election. I suggest that in the hands of a government run from this side of the House comprehensive primary healthcare will be safe and that this Bill, suitably amended of course, will be of use. In the unlikely event of the present Government being returned to office, we still have some serious doubts about the effects of the Bill.
7.4 p.m.
Baroness Cumberlege: My Lords, we have had a lively and informative debate. That bears witness to the importance which your Lordships attach to the future development of primary healthcare. It was encouraging to see a degree of consensus in your Lordships' House over the broad direction in which we should move.
The noble Baroness, Lady Jay of Paddington, said that she accepted the overall aims of the Bill and welcomed the principles underlying it. I was sad, however, to learn today that the Labour Party has stabbed primary healthcare in the back since it has stated its wish to end the individual practice of fundholding which has brought so many improvements not only to patients and to primary care but to the whole of the NHS, as it ties together primary healthcare and hospital services. This morning the Labour Party disenfranchised over 50 per cent. of GPs from holding budgets. According to the Labour Party, they are not fit to be trusted. The noble Baroness talked of low morale—a view with which I disagree. But nothing will lower morale more than disqualifying all those who have put so much time and effort into fundholding from holding budgets for their own practice population. The Labour Party seeks to take away their control, to ignore their judgment and to pressgang them into area committees. I say to fundholding GPs, "I warn you: New Labour, new danger".
Baroness Jay of Paddington: My Lords, I am afraid that I must intervene. I know that my honourable friend Mr. Smith spoke only this morning about our plans, and given the time that she had to spend preparing for this debate, I quite understand that it has not been possible for the Minister to read precisely what he said. However, there is certainly no question of fundholders—people who are now joining together to
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commission the new work that is being carried out by individuals—not being able to hold budgets. They will have financial responsibility, as collective bodies, for the collective interests of their patients. We on this side of the House feel that it is in the best interests of the health service—and in accordance with its best principles—for there to be collective responsibility for collective health rather than the individual queue-jumping, which is what individual fundholding has resulted in.
Baroness Cumberlege: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, but perhaps she can enlighten me further by saying whether the Labour Party is giving a guarantee that individual fundholders will be able to continue having responsibility for the budgets that they hold for their practice population?
Baroness Jay of Paddington: My Lords, I am not sure that the House is particularly anxious for us to debate this matter in such detail. However, it is certainly the case that this morning my honourable friend referred to the possibility, in certain circumstances, of individual practices continuing to hold their own funds. He made very clear—we certainly support this—that the development of individual fundholding will not be encouraged. I suppose that I should say that it will be "frozen" after a Labour victory at the general election. I repeat that we believe that collective fundholding and the collective use of money under GP commissioning arrangements are more advantageous and more equitable for the population at large.
Baroness Cumberlege: My Lords, I do not find that at all reassuring because it means that in the future GP fundholders will not be able to have the responsibility that they currently have for holding funds for their particular practice. Whether they like it or not, they will have to work with other GPs and form committees to decide how to purchase services. One thing that comes through strongly in discussions on GP fundholding is that GPs are individuals. They run their own businesses and are successful in doing so. They have been innovative beyond all measure. They have done things of which we would never have dreamt and, because they are in control, they have been able to introduce services like physiotherapy and more complementary therapies. They now provide all sorts of different services. It is a tragedy that that development will not be allowed to continue if a Labour Government come to power.
Baroness Jay of Paddington: My Lords, I hesitate to intervene again, but I must answer the Minister's point, although it was an inappropriate one to raise when replying to such a debate. However, as the noble Baroness insists on developing these points, I shall respond. The fact of the matter is that, as the Audit Commission demonstrated, some GP fundholders have made innovations in their practices. They have often been those individual GP fundholders who have had advantages of locale, who have had specific government grants and who are working in areas where there is access to good DGH provision. We all know that. However, that system has also increased the inequities

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in the provision of care in the health service. We on this side regard the attempt to iron out inequities as more important than giving advantage to individuals.
Baroness Cumberlege: My Lords, the Audit Commission said that to some extent all GP fundholders had improved their services. Even if it is only to some extent, the Labour Party's policy launched today will ensure that those further improvements do not take place.
Referring to the question of equity, the first essential issue is whether there is equity of funding for the patients of fundholders and non-fundholders. As the noble Baroness is aware, the setting of budgets is not an exact science. However, the Government's guidance is clear: health authorities must seek equity of funding for all patients in their areas. From an equitable base fundholders may use their budgets differently, but they will reflect the different needs of their practice population, different priorities and management of funds throughout the year and service innovations which lead the way and so often spread to patients in other practices. My noble friend Lady Seccombe is right to say that a primary care led NHS brings decisions closer to patients. Fundholders have brought many benefits undreamt of when the schemes were introduced.
The noble Baroness, Lady Jay, also raised the prospect of the Bill opening the door to privatisation of primary care. This is primarily a measure to enable those who already provide NHS services—GPs, general dental practitioners and NHS trusts—to develop provision in new ways. We are confident that they will seize the opportunity. The Bill gives them a guarantee that their proposals will be forwarded to the Secretary of State. My noble friend Lord Dean is right to stress that in any new schemes the doctor-patient relationship is of prime importance. For that reason we are safeguarding the current registration system that sets the whole tone and nature of primary care in this country.
The noble Baroness, Lady Robson, asked about regulation by affirmative resolution. I understand her concerns. However, the Delegated Powers and Deregulation Select Committee of your Lordships' House has considered the Bill in detail and does not want to alter it. The proposals are on all fours with all the primary healthcare legislation passed since 1946.
My noble friend Lord Dean referred to the welcome given to this measure by the RCN. The noble Baroness, Lady Robson, asked whether new partnerships formed with a nurse if a GP retired would affect the patients' registration system. That issue was also raised by the noble Baroness, Lady McFarlane. If a patient is not on the list of a specific GP but is on the practice list there will be no change. A patient may always choose to be on an individual GP's list, in which case he or she can choose on which alternative GP's list to appear. The nurse may not have a separate list of patients but may undertake a wider range of work for patients within the practice.
The noble Baronesses, Lady Robson and Lady McFarlane, asked about nurse prescribing. There can be no one more convinced, no one more determined, no
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one who has worked longer and harder to make nurse prescribing a reality. For 10 years I have fought this cause. Progress has been slow. Initially, I believed that it would be accomplished in two years but I was naive. I was told that it did not require legislation, but it did. I was told that it would be easy to negotiate, but it was not. I was told that money would not be a problem, but money has been a problem. I was told that training would be minimal, but training has been problematical. I am pleased to inform your Lordships that I believe that most of the obstacles have been overcome. An announcement will be made shortly by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State.
The noble Baroness, Lady Robson, was concerned about the closure of pharmacies due to the possible abolition of resale price maintenance. I believe that my noble friend Lady Gardner also touched on that issue. There is an essential small pharmacy scheme under which financial support is provided to small pharmacies which are more than 1 kilometre from the next nearest pharmacy. That model can be developed further if it proves necessary. As far as resale price maintenance is concerned, that is a matter for the Department of Trade and Industry. I understand that RPM on medicines is with the Restrictive Practices Court, and therefore I do not want to go into that issue at the moment.
The noble Lord, Lord Walton, was right to chart the beginnings and progress of primary care. From his personal experience he left us in no doubt that primary care had never been stronger, training never more thorough and primary healthcare teams never more real. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Dean of Harptree for highlighting the successes. I believe that it is right to remind ourselves that, compared with the rest of the world, we receive an outstanding service at relatively little cost to the nation through the present system of funding of the National Health Service. But we recognise the pressures to which my noble friend Lord Campbell of Croy so eloquently referred. Clearly, he has knowledge of this matter through personal experience (which I wish had not been necessary). We fund it very generously. We have the guarantee of my right honourable friend the Prime Minister that so long as the Conservative Party is in power there will be more money year on year for the National Health Service. The United Kingdom spends £4.8 million every hour on the National Health Service. Next year we plan to invest a further £100 million in primary care.
The noble Lord, Lord Rea, and other noble Lords referred to resources. The £6 million is for the pilot schemes. Clearly, that will not cover the cost of setting up the schemes on the ground. The whole of the £100 million is available for primary care and clearly some for the pilot schemes. The noble Lord, Lord Walton, asked whether a partnership of GPs and nurses would be accepted as health service bodies under the proposals. The Bill will allow nurses to put forward proposals in partnership with GPs. One of the key aims is to encourage greater integration of the work of different healthcare professions. To allow new forms of partnership in pilot schemes will help to achieve this.

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The noble Lord also addressed the issue of the shortage of doctors. It is true that the number of trainees has declined, but the number of GPs has increased. Eighty per cent. of vacancies are filled in a matter of months. On average, every vacancy attracts nine applicants to the post. Those who make appointments of general practitioners assure us that they do not have to compromise on quality.
The noble Baronesses, Lady Jay and Lady Robson, and the noble Lord, Lord Walton, dealt with evaluation. My noble friend Lord Campbell asked some probing questions in that regard. Perhaps I may seek to reassure my noble friend Lord Harmsworth, who I understand is sceptical about pilot schemes. The Bill requires that each pilot scheme should be reviewed and that such reviews take place before the pilots are spread more widely. The precise approach to evaluation has not yet been set out. We wish to discuss with the professions, health authorities, representatives of academic units and patients the best way to evaluate schemes. We will be establishing a representative group nationally to take this forward and to consider the application process for pilots and the criteria that govern their approval. I am sure that one of the issues that that group will wish to consider is the question of consultation, which was referred to you by my noble friend Lady Anelay. We have demonstrated our commitment to evaluation by ensuring that the requirement is on the face of the Bill. As yet, we have not set a period of time, but obviously it must be long enough to test the new arrangements properly.
A number of your Lordships referred to the Medical Practices Committee. The Government strongly endorse the principle of equity in medical services both in health authorities and nationally. We want to make further progress. I have talked at length to Mary Leigh, Chairman of the MPC, as have my honourable friend the Minister of Health and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State. We have discussed the MPC's role in relation to pilots and the more permanent arrangements which may follow pilots if they are successful. This issue is being discussed also with Dr. Bogle, Chairman of the BMA's General Medical Services Committee. Shortly, we will put forward proposals in the light of those discussions to take the issue forward and ensure that a coherent local and national approach is applied to both pilots and the existing arrangements. We want to continue to work with both parties.
My noble friend Lord Dean raised the question of GPs' responsibility for patient and practice records in a practice-based contract. I can assure him that GPs will continue to be responsible for the patients they treat. That is only to be expected given their status as professionals. That will be the case whether they are part of a team which has a practice-based contract or operate single handedly. Perhaps I may make it clear that under the new arrangements patients who want to be on a specified GP's list will be able to be.
My noble friend Lady Eccles of Moulton is right to point out that change in the 21st century is inevitable. As a health authority chairman, she knows well the benefits that recent changes have brought. The noble
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Lord, Lord Ewing, advocated change for industry and commerce but perhaps not quite so much change for the NHS, as he outlined all the reorganisations that have taken place since 1948. I should like to suggest to him that it is because the NHS has accepted change that it has survived to the 21st century. I look forward to the day when he will take me on one side and tell me exactly what is Labour Party health policy, because he said that the Labour Party has today announced its intention to abolish the internal market, but I understood that it was to keep trusts and the purchaser/provider split. No doubt we shall hear more in Committee.
The noble Lord was worried that voluntary schemes would become mandatory, but he will know as a member of a trust that trust status is always a voluntary initiative. He may be slightly disappointed that all units have chosen to become trusts and that through a voluntary approach we have now changed the whole system. GP fundholding—another voluntary scheme—has resulted in England, as my noble friend said, with 50 per cent. of GPs choosing fundholding. That is an honourable record in ensuring that voluntary schemes are treated as voluntary schemes. The noble Lord has no reason to question us on that.
I shall not disappoint my noble friend Lord Colwyn, who suggested that I might put forward some figures. This September there were 19,147 NHS dentists in Great Britain—an increase of 2,403 over 10 years and an all-time peak. The number of adult courses of treatment has also increased by 18 per cent. over 10 years, from 24.2 million in 1985 to 28.6 million in 1995. But I would agree with him and my noble friend Lady Gardner of Parkes that the national picture may mask buoyant services in some localities and an inadequacy of availability of NHS services in other areas. Patients have always had to travel to get to the dentist. We must ensure that they do not have to travel excessive distances.
We are taking action to tackle local problem areas. We encourage health authorities to make use of the community dental service to provide primary care services, and on 12th June we announced a package of reforms which we believe will do much to promote an atmosphere of stability and security for the dental profession.
One of the measures was an access fund to help finance local schemes to improve access to NHS dentistry. My noble friend Lord Colwyn is right that there are 22 grants to help authorities with innovative schemes. We have been encouraged by the range of schemes put forward by health authorities, and we shall want to evaluate them carefully before deciding whether and in what form to extend the scheme. Dentists' fees are set annually, as my noble friend realises, by the Doctors and Dentists Review Body, so as time is getting on I do not wish to get into the whole issue of expenses.
My noble friend Lady Gardner of Parkes asked about pharmacists initiating schemes. The Government are already funding a number of pilot schemes in pharmacy, and the Bill will enable health authorities to enter into NHS contracts to purchase those services. They will be informed by the existing pilots.

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The noble Lord, Lord Rea, asked about prevention. I agree with him that primary care is an effective and important tool in preventing disease, but he will know of our Health of the Nation strategy which is all-embracing and described by the WHO as a model for other countries to follow. The noble Lord also mentioned medical records. I can reassure him that the existing arrangements will continue under the pilot schemes.
The drive to innovate has always been the hallmark of good health professionals and our consultation with a broad range of people over the past year revealed a genuine enthusiasm for innovation. Primary care has been an area in which an already successful service has not rested on its laurels. We have only to witness the integration of teams involving doctors, nurses, therapists and others. We have seen the creation of primary healthcare teams. We have seen them strengthened. We have seen the success of fundholding. We have seen community pharmacists strengthen their role through the New Horizon: Pharmacy in the New Age—a document that shows all their determination to use their experience and skills within the profession. Dentistry has made huge strides, and our oral health has never been better.
We have made an encouraging start. We are building on the consensus which emerged from the primary care listing exercise. The main representative bodies have given a positive response to the White Paper, Choice and Opportunity, which sets out our proposals.
It has been an interesting debate. I am sure that there will be an even more robust debate when we come to Committee stage. At this point I should like to thank noble Lords for all the contributions that they have made and to ask them to give the Bill a Second Reading.
On Question, Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

EU: Racial and Religious Discrimination
7.26 p.m.
Lord McNair Lord McNair rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will support the proposal to incorporate a provision banning discrimination on the grounds of race and religion in the revised Treaty of European Union.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, it may seem rather late to be asking the Government to support the proposal, in a general sense, to incorporate a provision banning discrimination on the grounds of race and religion in the revised treaty at the next IGC on 14th December. It would indeed be late if others had not for some time now been asking the Government and other EU member governments a similar question.
I shall be looking separately at race and religion, although in the case of some groups, such as the North Africans in France or the Turks in Germany, the two identities of course overlap. Apart from such cases, the subjects need to be considered separately because they each raise different kinds of difficulties for the person who finds himself subjected to discrimination.
I shall discuss what has already been done to move this matter forward, and then, as far as I have been able to determine them, describe the stance on this issue of various member countries. First, however, I should like to make a general point about the pathways by which legislation appears on our statute book. We have directives which, whatever their provenance or genesis, become law in Britain by the official route, as it were, but there are other harmonising measures whose genesis is more informal and which could be said to constitute European legislation by the back door.
One may agree or disagree with individual pieces of legislation, but I am talking about the process. It is an unhealthy process, just because it is secret. I am thinking in particular of law and order measures which may have had their origin in one country, but which, possibly as a result of discussions within the secretive Justice and Home Affairs Committee, find their way on to the statute books of other countries. I shall come back to it, but I feel strongly that no good will come of that process of harmonisation by stealth, which circumvents and subverts those modest democratic processes which have so far evolved within the EU.
If we look at the moves which are already afoot in the direction of the Question I have put, we find that the Irish presidency is putting forward a range of options to amend the treaty in 1997 to deal with racial and religious discrimination. I shall look first at race. Amendment is long overdue. There is no mention of racism in the original Treaty of Rome of 1957. Perhaps it was too soon after a war where racism had figured so largely, and it was inconceivable that it could become a problem in Europe.
The European Commission urged in its White Paper on social policy of July 1994 that there should be such an amendment. The European Parliament has approved the idea on many occasions since 1991. The opportunity has come with the present Inter-governmental Conferences and the certainty that a new treaty will be ready for signing sometime next year.
I turn to the context in which the matter rests. The main aims of the IGCs are to deal with the enlargement of the Community, to reform the Community's own institutions and those of the European Union, which, though that includes the same countries as the Community, is a distinct entity, and to find common measures for dealing with unemployment and poverty.
At the same time, however, the existing workings of the Community and the Union are coming under review. The arguments for a race amendment which are put forward by the CRE and which I endorse include the fact that the EU's commitment to human rights for citizens is incomplete without a commitment to outlaw racial discrimination, and that free movement in European territory is impeded when there is a different standard of protection against racial discrimination in each country. In that respect, we must acknowledge that we, the British, are the leaders in the field. Our legislation—the Race Relations Act 1976—is far superior to anything that exists in the European Community. We can be very proud of that.
The next reason why the proposal is essential is that racial discrimination is economically inefficient because it wastes talent and increases spending on social welfare. Furthermore, racism, xenophobia and anti-Semitism are socially divisive and are a threat to peace and security.
In addition, resident third country nationals—that is, nationals of a non-EU country who are resident in an EU country—deserve the same standards of protection against discrimination as citizens. Our Race Relations Act has shown the importance of such protection in Britain. Women who are third country nationals are protected against discrimination on the grounds of their gender but they are not protected against racial discrimination if that occurs.
Proposals for exactly what form the treaty modifications should take are many and I do not propose to go into them in detail tonight. EPIC, the European Parliamentary Intercultural Committee, of which I am an executive committee member, and which is chaired by my noble friend Lady Seear—we all wish her a full and rapid recovery—has put forward several amendments. Perhaps the best known of the suggestions is the Starting Point, which was put forward by the Starting Line Group. This is an informal committee which includes legal experts from different European countries. The purpose was to draft a text which would be a model for a European Community directive prohibiting racial and religious discrimination. The group was concerned to test possible objections from representatives from different national legal systems and constitutions. The agreed text, therefore, does not represent any one national or religious point of view and it requires a treaty amendment because the Community is unable to propose such a directive without specific authorisation in the Community treaty.
For reference, the model amendment is called the Starting Point. It proposes, first, to add to Article 3a a new article which seeks:
"the elimination of discrimination against persons or groups of persons, whether of the European Union or not, on the grounds of race, colour, religion, or national, social or ethnic origin and the promotion of harmonious relations between such persons or groups of persons".
It also proposes a new Part la entitled Non-discrimination between the existing Part 1 and Part 2, but I do not expect the Minister to speak in detail about that. I mentioned it so that we know what we are talking about.
We should remember that current estimates of the ethnic minority population of the European Union as a whole suggest that approximately 16 million people would stand to gain from such a treaty amendment, considering only racial discrimination. That is more than the population of some of the smaller countries such as Belgium and Holland. It is a large number of people.
I turn to religious discrimination, as distinct from discrimination on the grounds of race. Those who are members of minority religions—I refer to traditional Christian denominations and others—are experiencing a growing sense of oppression. As the House will be aware, the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, and I went to Germany to investigate discrimination in that country. But it is not only in Germany that religious intolerance
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is becoming commonplace. It is fair to say that almost all the minority religious groups which were banned by the Nazis and which survived that era are now under threat not only from the German authorities but also from the French. The Jehovah's Witnesses in particular are having a rough time in France, but they are not alone. Last year the French Minister of the Interior, apparently in a bid for popular support, boasted that he would take measures against the sects and listed 172, including the Mormons, the Seventh Day Adventists and many other Christian denominations. The list also included a small Tibetan community in the south of France which is almost certainly Buddhist. He has described it as a dangerous sect. That is most puzzling.
The proposal has historical precedents. I think not only of the religious hysteria of the Crusades but, going back to European history of the 12th and 13th centuries, recall that the hysteria against those who were regarded as witches began in southern France. The European country which seemed to specialise in that was what is now western Germany. The problems which are being caused would be resolved if we had the kind of measure that I am asking the Government to endorse.
7.37 p.m.
The Lord Bishop of Coventry: My Lords, I hope that I can claim that the Church of England is firmly opposed to discrimination against a person on either racial or religious grounds. Of course, adding the religious dimension enriches and strengthens the noble Lord's proposal and makes it more complex. A significant amount of discrimination in this country and in Europe is experienced as religious discrimination. That is felt particularly by religious people of Asian origin in this country. A multi-faith forum which meets in my house in Coventry conveys that to me most vividly and strongly each time it meets.
Many young people are growing up in inner cities and identify themselves in religious terms. Research confirms that. The question which the noble Lord raises is crucial for us too. Many who suffer racial attack are abused by their assailants about their religion. The Inner Cities Religious Council, chaired by Sir Paul Beresford under the auspices of the Department of the Environment, recently produced a summary of existing remedies for those who believe that they are being discriminated against because of their faith. It is entitled Challenging Religious Discrimination and I commend it as a guide.
The Commission for Racial Equality has produced a leaflet on religious discrimination by employers. I should like to welcome its work. It is holding public meetings and receiving evidence on religious discrimination. We need to know more about the kind of discrimination that is being experienced and to consider a variety of ways of tackling it. For instance, in Northern Ireland an approach concerned with policy appraisal and fair treatment requires government agencies to consider whether any new policies or practice contain an element of religious bias. Within the Christian community, many of us are concerned that devout Christians should not suffer at work as a result of changes in legislation which previously protected

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Sunday as a day of shared rest. In letters and conversations, I hear of hardship experienced by many people. It is so important that Sundays should be preserved for the protection of family life.
I wish to support any appropriate and effective action to deal with the vital issue of religious discrimination throughout Europe. We would of course want to stand firmly on the side of human rights and religious freedom for all the citizens of the European Union member countries. Christian values demand that Europe should not define itself at this key moment in its history on the eve of a century in which Europeans will by sheer economic forces be compelled to co-operate more and more, not as fortress Europe, but as a richly multi-racial society committed to the Christian principles of hospitality, protection for the vulnerable and justice for the stranger. The European House should be an "open house", a home. That is why the Churches of this country have committed themselves to a Charter for Racial Justice.
The Churches of Europe played a key part in initiating the Starting Line—now the Starting Point to which the noble Lord referred—and a move towards possible ultimate amendment to the treaty of the European Community to place the elimination of all racial and religious discrimination in the midst of the guiding aims and principles of the Community and to ensure that its institutions are given power and direction in that area.
That is an essential aim. The only question is how it can best be realised. Actual legislation has its dangers. We need to be clearer as to what is the most sensitive and apt remedy for religious discrimination whether through training, through promotion of good practice, through codes of practice or by means of law itself. There may well be questions as to what is the most appropriate direction to take now, and, if that is by way of an amendment to the European Union treaty, then as to what form that amendment should take.
There is serious and growing concern on the issue throughout Europe. This is an urgent matter in our increasingly divided and passion-driven world. But we must not legislate in haste. One could envisage law suits within and between religious communities. There are tensions between, say, the existence of blasphemy laws and the case for legal redress for discrimination by the religious as well as against them. Even if the treaty were to be amended as proposed by the noble Lord, the amendment would need to be fleshed out with directives and the like, the precise terms of which could be contentious.
The position is not helped by the absence of any agreed definition of "religion", though that is certainly not an insuperable objection to legislation as has already been shown. But, in the religious sphere, I have to confess that the principle applies of corruptio optimi pessima—the corruption of the best is worst. What is noblest and most creative in human life can tragically become the most destructive of all.
That apart, in this country, with a Church established by law and all the legal implications that flow from that, the whole question of religious discrimination in the
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widest sense, beyond that which directly affects the individual, needs very careful handling. I firmly believe, with Professor Adrian Hastings, that the relation between Church and society that has emerged in the history of this country is something profoundly precious for us to bring into the European Community as a vital ingredient. I see it working out in my own city in a way which brings all faiths and religions together into its embrace.
Although I am no lawyer, I can understand that there could be many pitfalls in this kind of legislation. So, believing profoundly in the intention of the proposal made by the noble Lord, Lord McNair, I want now both eagerly and urgently to support a call to the Government to investigate the position and to come forward with carefully and effectively worked out concrete proposals.
7.43 p.m.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: My Lords, from these Benches I should like, first, to thank the noble Lord, Lord McNair, for giving the House an opportunity to debate this important matter. I should also like to express my appreciation for the fact that the Minister is present this evening. The noble Baroness has a very busy life, with very weighty problems, and yet she has managed to find time to give us the benefit of her views, together with those of her department, on such an important topic.
I was a little worried by the speech made by the right reverend Prelate. He started off with kind words, but then virtually repeated what I consider to be a ministerial speech advocating caution, consideration and reflection. Of course, those things are well understood. We understand that discrimination is a minefield; indeed, racial intolerance is not something to which the whole House or any decent-minded person would subscribe.
I hope, in response to the noble Lord's request, that the Minister will be able to express some sympathy with the thrust of his case. I hope that she will immediately acknowledge that there must be problems in ensuring that such a proposal is implemented. It is well understood that the Irish presidency of the European Community is putting forward a range of options for amending the treaty in 1997 so as to deal with racial and religious discrimination. One of the options includes outlawing other forms of unjust discrimination on grounds, for example, of age, sex, disability and other factors.
The case put forward by the noble Lord, Lord McNair, ably supported by the right reverend Prelate, will I am sure be well understood by the Minister. Quite frankly, I hope that we will hear kind words in response. The proposal under consideration was endorsed in a directive in April 1993. I am indebted to EPIC, like other speakers, for giving me such details. It was also endorsed by the European Parliament in December 1993. The proposals relate to race, colour, religion or national social or ethnic origin.
In a very busy life with so much for us to undertake, one could ask what in actual fact is the need for this House, this Parliament and this country to do more than

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simply acknowledge the situation. Quite frankly, I believe that the need is perfectly clear. There is no doubting the fact that there is an increase in racial violence and intolerance.
During the first three months of 1992, the number of attacks on foreigners in Germany increased by 400 per cent. over the same period in the preceding year. There were nearly 600 attacks, most of them carried out by people under 20 years of age. In April, a Jewish cemetery in Berlin was desecrated: there had been similar desecrations earlier in France and Britain. In France, too, racist attacks have increased, with North Africans the main targets. An opinion survey in France in November 1991 found that 49 per cent. of respondents had negative views of North Africans, while 62 per cent. wanted to reject immigrants from eastern and central Europe. In Spain, in June 1992, 30 Right-wing extremists attacked a group of North Africans, injuring some of them severely, and about 200 North Africans fled the town of Fraga in fear of further violence. (The Mayor resigned in protest against the failure of the central authorities to prevent the violence, which he had predicted).
In Italy, attacks on seasonal workers from many parts of Africa have been increasing in the south: some victims have been seriously injured by firearms. In Britain, Somalian refugees have suffered stone-throwing and physical assaults in Sheffield, while a mosque in Greenwich, east London, has been desecrated and many people in the area attacked. An Afghan refugee was murdered in the summer in what a police officer described as
"a racist attack with no possible provocation".
Arson attacks have increased in several countries: against African immigrants in north Italy; in Germany, where a refugee hostel in Rostock was set on fire; while in Britain, arson against the homes of south Asians has been happening for many years. These publicised examples represent only a fraction of the violence which occurs.
The Labour Government passed the Race Relations Act in 1976 and the Labour Party has consistently proposed, or supported, stronger penalties for aggravated offences of racial violence or discrimination. It would be of value if we could move the action to another higher, more prominent plane—that is, the European Union—and encourage measures by member states, which have not passed comparable legislation to our own Race Relations Act, perhaps setting time limits and offering patterns for legislation. I would certainly want to argue that Community action should necessarily be undertaken because of the Union's respect for fundamental rights: discrimination interferes with free movement of goods and services.
I noted the very strong component in both previous speeches concerning religion and also the quite legitimate points raised by the right reverend Prelate about the sensitivity of the action of lawyers and experts. I do not wish to become involved in that argument because I am not competent to do so, but there are precedents which exist in directives on equal treatment for men and women. Some will also insist that
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action should be taken using the third pillar on intergovernmental co-operation. However, in my view there is no need to get involved with that.
The Commission for Racial Equality understands that the Government are opposed to treaty amendment. The Government believe that each government should be encouraged to make its own laws. The Minister is, as always, well briefed and she is well able to deal with these matters. She should know that the intention to seek to amend the treaty is supported by the Runnymede Trust, the Law Society, the Bar Council and many others.
We should support the proposed amendment to the treaty on the grounds that it will extend the protection given to British people under the Race Relations Act to our people elsewhere in Europe, and to other Europeans, and others living in Europe. It does not mean imposing Brussels laws on Britain, but actively encouraging the elimination of discrimination throughout Europe. In 1997 we shall enter the European year against racism, xenophobia and anti-Semitism. I believe that the time is right to take those actions.
7.51 p.m.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Blatch): My Lords, I, too, am grateful for the opportunity to hold this debate. I thank the noble Lord, Lord McNair, for providing us with the opportunity. As has already been said, this is an important subject on which we have heard a range of views. As the noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, said, it has been a timely opportunity for us to do that, given that the Intergovernmental Conference is taking place now.
We all share the same goal: equality of opportunity regardless of racial origin and freedom from discrimination. I have to say though that we differ from those who have advocated a stronger role for the European Union on the most effective and appropriate way of reaching that goal.
The noble Lord in proposing this debate has raised two issues: whether the Treaty on European Union should be amended to include a provision banning discrimination; and whether such a provision should also cover discrimination on the grounds of religion. These seem like simple propositions, but there are a number of threads which run together here and a range of different considerations which affect the Government's approach.
I believe that the United Kingdom can be proud of its record on race relations, which is significantly better than that of most comparable countries. That point was made by the noble Lord, Lord McNair. The United Kingdom has one of the most comprehensive anti-discrimination laws in Europe. As the noble Lord said, we are leaders in the field. This legislation has been developed over many years. It strikes a delicate balance which is appropriate to the situation in the United Kingdom.
We need to recognise that the incidence of racism, discrimination and disadvantage reflects in some measure differences in history, geography, culture and of course the political situation. It is not self-evident that

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problems in one country will automatically be repeated in another, where the issues may be very different, or that the solutions will be the same.
The Government believe that the prime responsibility in this area rests with member states where action can be targeted at areas of real need. We do not support the idea that the European Community should have any general competence in the field of race relations. We noted that Sub-Committee E of the European Communities Committee of this House expressed similar concern at extending Community competence in relation to racism when it looked at the Commission's communication on racism and xenophobia earlier this year. Some of those difficulties were mentioned by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham.
Noble Lords: Oh!
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I have made that mistake twice in two days. I apologise for referring to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham, who will be sitting on those Benches one day. Last night I referred to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham when the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Lincoln was in the Chamber. I have made a mistake again today. I apologise to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Coventry. I have travelled through Coventry and Birmingham today. I have corrected my error for the record.
Turning to the question of religious discrimination, we do not accept that the European Community should have competence in this field either. The issues surrounding religious discrimination are extremely complex and sensitive. There is no specific legislation in Great Britain covering religious discrimination as such. As yet, there is no evidence of a real problem of discrimination on the grounds of a person's religious beliefs as opposed to his racial or ethnic background.
The Government would be prepared to look at any evidence in this area. But no one yet has presented us with evidence to suggest that existing legislation is inadequate to deal with any mischief which may occur. In the circumstances, we do not see a case for giving the European Community competence to act in that area.
Our strong doubts about European competence in these areas does not mean that we deny the importance of appropriate European level co-operation. On the contrary, I see a key role for co-operation with our European partners. We already work closely together in various fora going beyond the European Union and actively share experience and information.
In the area of tackling xenophobic criminal activity we were very pleased earlier this year to agree the Joint Action on Racism and Xenophobia which marks a significant step forward in tackling racism across Europe. Under the joint action member states will provide evidence to other member states to help convict and punish those committing racist acts; facilitate the search for racist material intended for dissemination in another member state; and provide powers to seize such material.
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As the Government have made clear, we are prepared to legislate to close a loophole in our law. That will enable us to seize racist material produced here which is intended for distribution in other member states. The United Kingdom has also agreed that 1997—as the noble Lord, Lord Graham, said—should be designated European Year Against Racism. The Government believe that the European year has the potential to make a valuable contribution to the fight against racism, xenophobia and anti-semitism and will help to highlight the benefits of a diverse society. Plans for the year are still being drawn up, but we are determined that the United Kingdom should play a full and constructive part. We have been greatly heartened by the enormous interest shown in the year by all sections of the community. Countless organisations, large and small, are already planning their own events to mark the year, and this is just as it should be, because tackling racism and prejudice is not just about legislation, important though that is. It is also about winning hearts and minds; promotional and awareness raising activities can make a significant contribution towards this.
The noble Lord, Lord McNair, referred to justice and home affairs. The justice and home affairs pillar of the European Union Treaty operates by unanimity and on an intergovernmental basis. It does not produce Community law but international law agreements or conventions. The Government have agreed to submit proposals, which would require United Kingdom legislation, to be scrutinised by Parliament before they are agreed.
Reference was also made to Starting Point. The Government are aware of the work done by the group of lawyers who produced the Starting Point. We are also aware of the fact that their proposal has been endorsed by certain non-governmental organisations in member states. The fact remains that we are not persuaded by their arguments for the reasons which I have already set out.
Reference was made to EPIC. We have also listened carefully to the arguments put forward by EPIC. Indeed my honourable friend the parliamentary Under-Secretary at the Home Office, Mr. Kirkhope, met a delegation from EPIC earlier in the summer of this year. The delegation included the noble Baroness, Lady Seear. My noble friends and myself wish the noble Baroness a speedy recovery. We miss her presence greatly in this House. EPIC's conclusions were presented to my honourable friend in another place. What was said at the meeting was taken careful note of. We kept that very much in mind while reflecting on this issue.
The noble Lord, Lord McNair, referred to experience in other countries, as did the noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton. Nobody would seek to deny that discrimination and harassment exist in other member states. Our point is that those matters are best dealt with in the context in which they arise. That is why we believe it should be for each member state to deal with them.
I was asked: why is there reluctance on the part of the Government to introduce a specific law against incitement to religious hatred and against religious

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discrimination? As the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Coventry said, the situation is extremely complex and sensitive. Of course it is important to explore the issue carefully with all those groups concerned in the matter. We already have comprehensive legislation on race, and the Race Relations Act 1976, again referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Graham, makes discrimination on grounds of race unlawful. The public order law prohibits incitement to racial hatred. We would be prepared to examine any evidence in this area, but nobody has yet presented us with evidence to suggest that the existing legislation is inadequate to deal with any mischief which may occur.
The noble Lord, Lord Graham, mentioned the 1993 directive. The European Union has no legislation on race discrimination. It does not have the power to make such a directive. There have been numerous condemnations of racism and xenophobia by the European Union, including by the European Council Heads of Government. The United Kingdom has joined in those declarations and condemnations.
The noble Lord, Lord Graham, also asked what the Government have done about racially motivated violence in the United Kingdom. Again, I say unequivocally that the Government are committed to providing strong protection for ethnic minorities against racial violence and harassment. Violent racial attacks are already well covered by the criminal law. In an appeal case, the then Lord Chief Justice, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Taylor—to whom we also send our very best wishes—stated:
"it is perfectly possible for the court to deal with any offence of violence which has a proven racial element in it, in a way which makes clear that that aspect invests the offence with added gravity and therefore must be regarded as an aggravating feature".
What is dealt with in that situation is the actual offence; however, if the motivation for the offence is racial hatred, that becomes an aggravating feature. We have found in relation to sentencing in the courts—and it has been very impressive—that that aspect has been taken into account and therefore the sentence has been all the more severe as a result of the aggravating feature.
Where there are gaps in the law, we have acted. The Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 introduced an offence to tackle racial harassment and give the police greater powers to deal with racially inflammatory material. Our proposals on stalking may also help. They
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will provide protection in cases where victims are threatened or harassed. It will not be necessary to prove intention in those cases.
The noble Lord, Lord Graham, asked whether British citizens of ethnic minority origin are subjected to harassment and even violence when they travel in the European Union. This point is not about discrimination; it is about racially motivated criminal activity. That is completely unacceptable. We believe that the criminal law of the member states should be able to deal with it. This is an area in which a good deal of co-operation already takes place between the member states under the third pillar of the European Union: co-operation in the field of justice and home affairs. It is under that third pillar that we believe this issue belongs. It encourages the highest possible degree of co-operation between member states.
We should be wary of thinking that there are any easy answers in this area. The good community relations that we enjoy in the United Kingdom are very precious. They are the fruits of years of hard work. We owe much to the basic good sense and decency of the people of this country. If we wish to maintain and improve those relations, we should tread very carefully indeed.
This debate has been short but useful. This will go on record as another subject that this House addresses very seriously.
Lord Hylton: My Lords, before the Minister sits down, will she accept that Northern Ireland has legislation against religious discrimination and that there is in function there a Fair Employment Agency dealing with the employment aspects of religious discrimination? Is she also aware that in England many Moslem groups would like to see that kind of legislation extended to this jurisdiction?
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I am certainly aware of what the noble Lord describes as pertaining in Northern Ireland. I am also aware that we have a raft of legislation which gives employees in this country of any race or background a good deal of protection. Given the shortness of the notice of the noble Lord's question, I need to reflect more on whether there is a lacuna about which we have not thought. However, I have referred to a good deal of legislation which is there to protect individuals in work and in their homes and communities.
House adjourned at four minutes past eight o'clock.

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