Sitting of 21 July 1994

Preamble
The House met at half-past Nine o'clock
PRAYERS
[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRAYERS
  PETITIONS

    Causing Death by Driving
    9.34 am
    Mr. Roger Stott: I wish to present a petition to the House on behalf of my constituents Colin and Margaret Gorton, the parents of Gary Gorton deceased. The petition
    Showeth
    That their son, Gary, aged four years and 10 months, was killed on Friday 20 August 1993 in Fir Grove, Beech Hill, Wigan when he was run over twice by a customised Toyota pick-up truck, as he was sat on the pavement.
    Wherefore, your Petitioners pray that your honourable House do call upon the Government to change the Law when a driver's negligence or unlawful action causes the death of a person. In all cases the driver must be charged with an offence of 'Causing Death by Driving', and the charge must carry a mandatory ban and an advanced re-test. This charge should replace the present 'Causing Death' charge and should be added to a manslaughter charge where appropriate.
    And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray that this petition be received.
    To lie upon the Table.

Hunting
9.35 am
Mr. Elliot Morley: I should like to present a petition signed by 15,000 people in response to changes in the law in the Criminal Justice and Public Order Bill. It reads:
The Petition of members and supporters of the campaign to ban hunting, Declares that compassion should not be criminalised by measures proposed in the Criminal Justice Bill that will restrict the democratic right of people to peacefully demonstrate against hunting.
The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons allows the opportunity for a vote to legislate against hunting rather than those who protest against it.
And the petitioners remain etc.
To lie upon the Table.

VAT (Fuel)
9.36 am
Mr. Harry Barnes: I have a petition from Frank King of Eckington and 923 residents of the area. Mr. King is concerned about value added tax. He is doubly concerned about its being placed on standing charges and he has my complete support in this matter. The petition reads:
To the Honourable the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Parliament assembled. The Humble Petition of the residents of Eckington and District in Derbyshire showeth that the placing of value added tax upon the standing charges for gas and electricity fuel bills is particularly unjust, as such charges are a fixed amount and cannot even be controlled by limiting a person's fuel consumption and that this places a particularly harsh burden upon those residents who live upon pensions, fixed benefits and low incomes. Wherefore your Petitioners, as in duty bound pray that your Honourable House will take measures to remove the burden of value added tax on standing charges.
And your petitioners, so in duty bound will ever pray, etc.
To lie upon the Table.

Sutton Coldfield (Schools)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Lightbown]
9.37 am
Sir Norman Fowler: I believe that this is the first Adjournment debate that I have raised for 20 years. After a long spell away trying to provide answers, I get back to the serious business of asking questions. I raise this subject, the position of schools in Sutton Coldfield, against the background of good schools, excellent head teachers, dedicated staff, good results and close working relations between parents and schools. In those circumstances, one might ask what problems there are to be tackled.
The first and most intractable problem arises from the very success of the schools—in particular, the secondary schools. The problem is the scarcity of school places which, each year for the past two or three years, has caused concern and anxiety for children who have been refused places and for the parents of those children.
I shall demonstrate the point. According to Birmingham city council education department, its three schools—Arthur Terry, Plantsbrook and John Willmott—were all considerably over-subscribed this year. The position this year is not much different from previous years. This year, at Arthur Terry there were almost 400 first-preference applicants for 240 places. At John Willmott, there were 398 first-preference applicant for 210 places. At Plantsbrook, there were 335 first-preference applicants for 210 places.
In practice, that meant that siblings living within three miles of schools were given preference and then those living closest to the schools were given preference. Under the rules, many children were excluded. Thus, at Arthur Terry, one of the best schools in Sutton Coldfield, the last child admitted at the time of the allocation lived two and a half miles from the school. A child who lived beyond that limit was excluded.
A boy who lived 2.8 miles away was initially excluded under the allocation, although I am glad to say that, due to movement on the waiting list, the problem has been rectified. Other children were not so swiftly accommodated. Of course, if they failed in their first preference because of the distance limit, there was no chance with their second and third preferences, because other schools' first preferences were already over-subscribed. That has continued over the past three years and it has caused distress and concern for parents and children alike. A parent in my constituency wrote to me.
"I now face the prospect of uncertainty over the next three months and I can sense the growing anxiety this situation is causing my son, as unlike many of the pupils in his school he continues to be unsure about which school he is going to go to in September."
That is one quote among dozens over the past three years. No one who has been, as I have, to parents' meetings can fail to recognise the emotion that the subject raises. In 1992, when the problem first arose, I called an impromptu meeting at literally 48 hours' notice. The meeting could scarcely be well advertised—it was not well advertised—but on a Saturday afternoon Sutton Coldfield town hall was filled with anxious parents. That gives some flavour of the concern over the past three years in my constituency.
I pay tribute to all the efforts that have been made to alleviate the problem. Because of the efforts of
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headmasters, the local education department and Department for Education representatives whom I have met on several occasions over the year, some of the worst results have been alleviated. There has been nail-biting concern until the last moment, but, over the past two or three years, we have scrambled through. Indeed, at the moment what was once a long waiting list is now down to about 25 Sutton Coldfield children who are still without local education authority places for September. That is still a substantial number, and I hope that the problem will be solved in the coming month.
Does that long and worrying process need to continue year after year? It has taken place since 1992. Does it have to be the case for the rest of the decade and into the next century? Can we reach a better position? Above all, can children in my constituency be assured of a place at the school of their choice in the constituency? That is what I aim at.
Changes are being introduced. On the recommendation of head teachers, the timetable for offering places has been brought forward. Last year, places were allocated on 22 April, and now they will be allocated at the end of January or early February. In addition, in the past, parents had to submit their choice by Christmas. This year, for 1995, they will have to return their choice cards by the end of September. Greater information is being given to parents to help them with their choice of school. For example, they will be told the allocation patterns over the past two years and they will be warned of difficulties with the popularity of certain schools. Those are very useful steps. I pay tribute to them—I have no criticism whatsoever. They will certainly assist administration.
But there is a more fundamental problem. One of the reasons for the problems that we face in Sutton Coldfield is that, because of the good reputations of the schools, parents from other parts of Birmingham and from elsewhere wish to send their children to those schools. It was once a minor issue, but in 1992, when the problem started, the age of transfer in Sutton Coldfield, which was 12, went down to 11. With that change in the age of transfer, which was good for all kinds of educational reasons, came various problems.
If it is to be the policy that children from other areas can go to schools in Sutton Coldfield because of their quality and reputation, there must be an adequate number of places to meet such demand. It would serve no one if that were not the case. It would certainly serve absolutely no one if children who are unsuccessful have to travel miles out of their local area, away from their friends, to other schools.
I pay tribute to the Government. I have been to the Department for Education on several occasions. I am grateful to the Government for giving the go-ahead earlier this year for some important capital projects—for example, at Arthur Terry where capacity is now being expanded. I welcome that development—I fought for it, and I was grateful that Ministers acted on it. I am glad to note that work is proceeding literally at this moment at John Willmott. Again, that is very welcome news. Six new classrooms are being created. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will confirm that work on the next six classrooms next year will also be approved.
Above all, I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will confirm a point of policy. Because there might be a case for reducing provision in some other parts of Birmingham—Birmingham is not the only city with the problem; it is a wider issue—such policy should not prevent the expansion

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of schools where there is proven and obvious public demand for schools in other areas. One of the most dispiriting things for parents is to be told to send their children five or six miles to another area because there are spare places there. That is not a policy of choice. A policy of choice allows the development of popular and successful schools to meet public demand. That is what our policy should be.
That policy was set out by my right hon. Friend the Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon (Mr. Patten) in his circular of 22 June. I will, in passing, pay tribute to the former Secretary of State for Education who achieved a great deal in his time at the Department for Education and with whom I always very much enjoyed working. One of his most successful policies was set out in a consultative circular on 22 June on choice and diversity for new school places, which he called "Putting Quality First".
My right hon. Friend's policy was that, in line with the parents charter, the views of parents should be given full weight when proposals on school provision are made. The Secretary of State must always consider carefully the educational, as well as the financial and organisational, merits of any proposals. The consultative document stated that the criteria for approving new school places should be in the interests of quality, and that the Secretary of State for Education will approve new school places where there is no shortage of places.
That was a very important statement and it took forward the popular schools initiative of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke) when he was Secretary of State for Education. Will my hon. Friend the Minister today confirm that that remains the policy of the Government?
One further point concerns me about the question of capacity, and this also concerns Conservative councillors in Sutton Coldfield and an organisation called PANIC, which was set up to deal with the problem of capacity and of children being refused places. The point that concerns me is whether expanding existing schools is a sufficient policy in itself. In other words, does there come a point when expansion cannot be taken any further?
We are probably coming to the limits of the natural capacity of the existing schools in Sutton Coldfield. For example, by September 1995, John Willmott will be taking 1,200 children and I doubt whether it can accommodate any more. The question that then arises is whether a new school can be provided in Sutton Coldfield and, if so, how it can be done.
We know that the pupil population will grow, on average, by about 14 per cent. during the next decade. We can guess that an area such as Sutton Coldfield, on the outskirts of a major conurbation, will be one of the areas where school population will rise as housing development continues. What should be the course? The circular to which I have referred describes the prospects of new grant-maintained schools being created.
The prospect of grant-maintained schools holds no terrors for those of us in Sutton Coldfield. Fairfax is grant-maintained, and, more interestingly, Walmley junior and infant schools are grant-maintained. I visited those schools last Friday and even from a short visit the high morale and the pride that they take in the fact that they are now running their own show was clear. There are no terrors for us with grant-maintained schools.
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I should be grateful if the Minister could set out the plans for that area, the criteria by which new schools can be created, the prospects for the creation of such new schools and the time scale about which we are talking.
There are two other issues that I wish to touch on briefly. Although available places is the major problem, I also wish to refer to the problem of the maintenance provision in our schools. I mentioned grant-maintained Walmley school a moment ago. The only complaint there is about the quality of buildings that that school has inherited. That is not a product of the past one or two years, but of year after year of neglect by the local education authority which has not spent the money that has been necessary on maintaining the fabric of the schools.
As happened all too often in the past, the authority cut the capital programme when it should have maintained it by a step-by-step programme. I shall give examples. Walmley now has 370 children in the junior school and 250 in the infant school. It inherited buildings which are in urgent need of renovation on the outside, which have not been painted for years, where repairs have been put off and where buildings have been neglected. In some cases, children are still using huts which have long since outlived their usefulness.
The process has occurred over a long period and the responsibility for it undoubtedly rests with the LEA. But the responsibility now, as far the grant-maintained school is concerned, rests with the Department. The proper maintenance of buildings may not be an obviously striking popular education issue and it is not necessarily an issue which has detained education conference after education conference. Yet when maintenance is neglected, the working environment for children and teachers is poorer than it need be. That is doubly frustrating when everything else in the school is going well. Anyone who wants to see an example of the process should go to Walmley or to my second example in Sutton Coldfield, Mere Green combined school, where the same evidence is on show.
Mere Green brings me to pre-school provision, the third and last point that I wish to raise about schools in my constituency. Mere Green is another excellent school which is now providing nursery education for just over 100 children. There is no doubt about the need for that provision and Mere Green has shown what can be done. I congratulate the school on that and I hope that it will continue to be supported by the local education authority.
In the coming months, the Government will want to develop plans as a result of the consideration that is now being given to the nursery area. It is an issue of importance and I hope that my hon. Friend might say a word or two on it. I recognise that there are cost restraints; it would be foolish not to do so, but we need a path forward in this area.
I have raised three issues—the lack of places, the physical state of schools and nursery provision, of which the most urgent is the places issue. I do not want to see the same problem, year after year, of worried and concerned children and teachers. The only way forward is to support the expansion of popular schools and consider the building of new schools. I recognise that when there are surplus places in an LEA area, difficulties which will be created. However, that is a separate issue and the Government should expand the popular schools to which parents want to send their children.
It brings no comfort to anyone that children must travel miles out of their own home area to find school places. The Government should encourage good schools and give

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children the opportunity of as good an education as possible. Sutton Coldfield has an excellent range of schools by any standards. That it is good news and is what the Government's education policy is all about, but their success brings with it the problem of attracting to those schools children from a wide area, and that needs to be addressed. The Government should support schools that are popular because of the excellent education which they provide.
9.58 am
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Further and Higher Education (Mr. Tim Boswell): I must congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield (Sir Norman Fowler) on securing this debate on a topic which is of great importance to him and has a wider resonance in the House. On the day when he can be seen to quit the front firing line of public life, we as a country owe him a great debt of gratitude for his contribution as a Secretary of State in the past. In his party capacity, we are grateful to him for his work as party chairman.
My right hon. Friend warned the House that it is some 20 years since he launched an Adjournment debate. I see no diminution in his force or eloquence in raising this matter on behalf of his constituents. They should be grateful to him for raising matters of considerable importance to Sutton Coldfield and of wider national importance. From the reports that I have from officials, I fully understand my right hon. Friend's concern that the excellent standards that pertain generally in Sutton Coldfield should be maintained and encouraged. Indeed, other areas need to raise themselves to those standards.
My right hon. Friend rightly identified salient areas of interest, which I shall deal with during my remarks. If he feels that anything has been elided or compressed, I hope that he will feel that he can come back to me on it. We have listened carefully and will reflect on the points that he has made.
If I might give a little historic context, the background to the issue was the change from 12-plus to 11-plus in 1992, which has created another year group in the schools in Sutton Coldfield. I fully understand the important point that my right hon. Friend makes: that, as capacity shortens, the capacity to deliver choice at the margin diminishes rather more quickly. He has explained that in relation to the schools that he mentioned, and the data that I have confirm it.
Therefore, it would be most effective for the House if I answer the debate by explaining the general position of Government policy, as it bears on the points that my right hon. Friend made. This is a most welcome opportunity for us to restate the Government's commitment to increasing choice, quality and diversity in all schools, whatever their local education authority, to draw attention to what has been done to date and to explain some of our plans for the future.
Improving quality and choice in education underpins all the Government's education reforms. My right hon. Friend may not know that last week I spoke to the Council of Local Education Authorities in Wolverhampton and emphasised our common objectives and the importance of all authorities—for example, the LEA for its maintained
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schools, the Funding Agency for Schools and the Government—working together to deliver quality and choice. It is a progressive policy. It takes time to fulfil. If, perhaps, I cannot give my right hon. Friend all the immediate assurance that he requires, he will understand.
We have an impressive record on expanding the choice of school to meet the wishes of parents. We attach enormous importance to parents being able, so far as possible—that is a necessary qualification—to send their children to the school of their choice. In the Education Act 1980, some way back now, we gave parents the right to express a choice among local schools—something which they had been denied previously. We gave them a right to appeal if they felt that the wrong decision had been taken. That provided an important second bite of the cherry.
Since that time, parents have been able to apply to any maintained school, and the admission authority—the governing body of a grant-maintained school or a voluntary-aided school and the LEA in other cases—has to comply with their preference unless the pupils do not meet the academic standard for selective education or do not satisfy the religious requirements for entry to the school, so that the religious character of the school would not be preserved.
The more open enrolment provisions of the Education Reform Act 1988 reinforced the measures in the 1980 Act and were designed to extend choice of school. More open enrolment—MOE in the trade—and pupil-led funding under local management of schools—LMS—give all schools an incentive to attract and retain pupils by responding positively to parental concern for good-quality education. As it were, money follows the pupils.
More open enrolment was designed to eliminate artificial admissions limits. It ensured that schools admitted up to the school's standard number or any higher admissions number set. Bringing admissions more into line with the capacity of a school made it easier for parents to gain the school of their choice.
My right hon. Friend touched on the important point that local education authorities could no longer justify keeping admissions down at popular schools to prop up the less popular schools. On that point, I can give my right hon. Friend a clear assurance. We simply cannot accept that parental choice should be frustrated in that way. If a school is popular and there is space, a pupil has to be admitted, even if it means exposing the fact that an unpopular school is indeed unpopular, and has low intakes as a result.
To continue the story of development, in 1993 the Government took further action, as promised under the parents charter, to strengthen parents' rights in the appeals process. All appeals committees must now have a lay member, and the rules are such that representatives of the school governing body or the LEA can no longer be in a majority. Admission authorities must advertise for people willing to serve as lay members. The result is that parents who take their cases to appeal can have renewed confidence. The appeal will be heard fairly and impartially, and the appeal committee will take a balanced decision between the needs of the child and the implications for the school. Despite the difficulties that we all recognise in Sutton Coldfield, where the position has developed from a large number of dissatisfied parents of pupils towards a reducing, but, I accept, still significant number, the admissions policy and, I hope, the appeals process are working.

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No less important was the publication in July 1993 of our circular 6/93 "Admissions to maintained schools". It set out for admission authorities their duties and responsibilities, but it also went much further. For the first time, schools and LEAs were given some clear guidance, derived from best practice, on what type of approach and which varieties of admissions criteria were desirable and which were not.
The basic message was clear, and was again based on citizens charter principles: parents should be able to see and understand without difficulty how an LEA or school would decide which children to admit before they stated their preference. I sympathise with the points that my right hon. Friend has made about proper information to parents. They should be able to have some idea of their chance of success. In particular, it was important that there should be clear, objective criteria for over-subscription—in other words, how a school would decide between competing claims when places were limited in a way that was fair and objective and so that everyone understood what was going on.
We have also helped to open up schools through the publication of performance and truancy data and reports under the new inspection system so that parents know how schools are doing. That can help inform their choice. That is part of our overall approach to quality.
Improvements in the way in which children are admitted to schools and in giving parents a real say in the outcome have been accompanied, of course, by a significant and continuing increase in the choice and diversity of school provision from which parents can choose. The first grant-maintained school was opened in 1989, only five years ago; now there are almost 1,000. There are 15 city technology colleges, and now 25 technology colleges, and more on the way. I note in passing that there is only one secondary and one primary grant-maintained school in Sutton Coldfield. I shall come back to that in a moment.
Of course, not all parents have or, perhaps more important, consider that they have a genuine choice to make. In some areas, parents may feel that there is only one good school—all others are second best, some are worse than that. But things are moving in the right direction and I believe that, as quality and standards improve in school, more and more parents will be happy with the prospect of sending their child to a school other than their first preference—although, by definition, first preference is best.
My right hon. Friend asked about some schools. being allowed to expand. He referred to the launch last month of the new circular on the supply of school places. It was carefully considered by my colleagues, but it remains a consultative circular. I cannot anticipate its final form until consultation is complete. It marks another milestone: in the progressive drive to raise standards in our schools.
In what we describe as our new settlement for education, we set out the basis for the development of schools policy over the next few years. We are taking a much closer interest in quality and standards than our predecessors have ever done in the era since the Butler education legislation 50 years ago. Securing the: right supply of high-quality school places is a key part of that picture. The key objective is not quantity but quality. Population growth to the end of the decade means that nationally we will need more new places in our schools. We must ensure that they are high-quality places.
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The circular to which I referred sets out the new framework for the organisation of schools to deliver higher quality, allied with, and in no sense incompatible with, more choice and diversity. The role of the new Funding Agency for Schools is set out in the circular. The agency is a key part of the new framework. As more than 10 per cent. of Birmingham's secondary pupils are educated in schools other than maintained schools, the funding agency has shared responsibility with the LEA for planning educational provision, and the opportunity to work together to ensure that demand for school places is met effectively.
My right hon. Friend mentioned promoting new schools. The circular provides guidance on a new type of school to be described as grant maintained with promoters. There is already much interest and we look forward to well-founded proposals from promoters to help increase quality, choice and diversity. It may be helpful to my right hon. Friend if I make it clear that all proposals will be considered by Ministers on their individual merits against a number of criteria. Of course, the need for places and parental demand will be important considerations.
The Secretary of State will, however, consider approving proposals for new capacity in areas of surplus where it would add to quality, choice and diversity and where there is scope for subsequent rationalisation. Other factors will include suitability of premises, qualifications of teachers, ability to meet the requirements of the national curriculum and other relevant factors. We are moving very much in the direction that my right hon. Friend would like.
The circular also makes it clear that, under certain circumstances, approval may be given for new school places, even when there is no expected shortfall in capacity. It will be considered, in particular, in schools where the new places will significantly enhance the objectives of quality, choice and diversity and where they could be matched by withdrawals of excess places at other schools.
The need for new places in an area will continue to be a key factor in decisions about whether to approve new capacity. We would expect it to be improved in the absence of a shortfall only in a minority of cases where there is clear evidence of improved choice, diversity and quality and the scope for rationalisation to which I referred. It is an important modification of the traditional approach, but obviously it does not go totally in the opposite direction.
Alongside the drive to raise quality, we will continue to seek the removal of unnecessary surplus places. That is an important objective for all LEAs and my right hon. Friend referred to it in the context of Birmingham.
We believe that resources available to education must be spent first and foremost on pupils and not unnecessary buildings. Of course, some surplus may be justified—for parental choice and to preserve access to village schools, for example—but wherever practical, expensive excess places should be removed and the circular sets out a new streamlined procedure for achieving that.
My right hon. Friend expressed concern about the state of school buildings in Birmingham. That is primarily the responsibility of the LEA. The Wragg report has been published and he knows about that. It is well documented that some schools have had less spend on their fabric and repairs than they might have and that has been proper cause for parental concern. I am glad that the city council has recently decided to increase the amount that it spends on education.

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A third vital area that my right hon. Friend mentioned was nursery education. He is aware that the Government would like to see a widening of nursery and other pre-school provision as resources become available. We are exploring ways, as resources allow, of making pre-school provision more widely available to those children who do not at present benefit. No decisions can be taken on statutory proposals until the outcome of the Government's current review is known, but we hope to keep further delay to a minimum.
I am sure that hon. Members will agree that we have a progressive and impressive record of expanding choice and diversity and trying to meet the needs of parents. Our aims must continue to be the same as those of my right hon. Friend—to meet the real desires and demands of parents. I hope that the measures that we have taken and can take in conjunction with local authorities and, as appropriate, the Funding Agency for Schools, will go some way towards alleviating the problems in Sutton Coldfield and benefiting parents and the pupils in the schools.
In concluding my remarks on an important topic, I thank my right hon. Friend for raising it and use the opportunity to express to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, my right hon. Friend, all hon. Members present and the staff my best wishes for a good rest during the vacation break and an interesting and, I hope, constructive autumn term.

Minibus Safety
10.15 am
Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody: It must be much more difficult to be a parent now than at any time in our history, not least because, in addition to the normal problems that face every mother and father, there are modern hazards which did not exist when I was young, or even when my children were young.
My daughter recently decided that it was not in the interests of her child to travel in the minibus provided by the school for a long school journey. She took him in the car, deposited him at the place, picked him up and brought him away. That raised a number of issues that I discussed with her.
First, she was lucky in that she had some form of transport—it is somewhat beaten up but it works—to which many mothers do not have access. Secondly, it is clear from the statistics that children are slightly more at risk in a car than in a minibus. Thirdly, what effect would there be on the already very stringent limitations on children's time and life if they are eternally unable to take part in various activities because they cannot get there or because the transport available is substandard?
We shall have to confront the problem with much more vigour. The Government have known for some time now that parents all over the country are concerned about minibuses. The issue is highlighted by the terrible accidents that occur from time to time. It is all very well to say that statistically there are very few, but for any parent who loses a child in a motorway accident, the loss is irreparable and the damage is so frightening that for the rest of the parents it becomes a matter of great and active concern.
We now have to do a great deal more than say simply that we want to talk about seat belts with the European Community and see what we can do to change the rules. Those of us who take an interest in these matters remember that when there was discussion within the European Community about changing the way in which buses were used, minibuses, which are a strong feature of voluntary life in Britain, were exempted because British Ministers said—at the time with some justification—that simply to bring in a restriction which made it impossible for people to use minibuses would wipe out large numbers of school and voluntary activities for such groups as scout troops, guides and the mentally handicapped.
Many people use minibuses, but they are not ideal and the dangers are very real. It is extraordinary that anyone with an ordinary driving licence can drive a minibus and be in control of 14 young lives—let us not be mealy-mouthed about it: they could be the lives of people in any age group. Anyone can do that on a voluntary basis. There is no control on the number of hours that a driver may work. A schoolteacher or a voluntary worker could thus have done a full day's work and then had to make a long journey driving a minibus. Urgent action must therefore be taken to impose strict laws.
One thing is always certain about Conservative Governments: Transport Ministers change jobs with the speed of light. A former Transport Minister, just before he left office, announced that we would apply to the Community for some controls over seat belts—but he went no further than that. He did not say how that would be paid for, or what extra controls were needed; and he did not say

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that he was prepared to talk to voluntary bodies to find a way of putting these changes into operation as soon as possible.
If the Government are serious, there are a number of rule changes that they must rapidly bring before the House —not in a year's time or in three years' time, if that happens to fit in with the Community. I should like measures announced in the Queen's Speech and implemented in the coming year.
The charter for minibuses points up some of the measures that those who work continually in the voluntary sector believe should be incorporated in any new system. The Community Transport Association, which relies almost wholly on minibuses, has given a great deal of thought to the matter and has identified the more important aspects of it. It recommends, for instance, that all seats be forward facing; there is clear evidence that bench seats are dangerous. Seats should be high-backed or incorporate protection for the head and neck so that people do not suffer from whiplash, which costs the national health service a lot of money and causes a great deal of pain to those who suffer from it.
There should be a minimum width of seat. Seats should be securely fixed to the floor by systems stronger than seat belt anchorages. Each seat should be fitted with a height-adjustable lap and diagonal seat belt. Those of us who have spent much of our lives dealing with accidents and.emergencies know only too well the damage that can be done by the wrong kind of seat belt.
Seat belts and anchorages should comply with the specifications ECE14 and ECE16 for vehicles in category M2—that is to say, buses with a maximum gross weight not exceeding 5,000 kg. Regulations require seat belts and anchorages to pass a static test that will provide crash protection. The group also went on to discuss the need to keep gangways clear and to have usable exits.
The Community Transport Association also considered some of the minibuses on our roads. Neil Buxton, co-ordinator of Thamesdown community transport, told a conference recently that one of the minibuses brought to him for a safety audit had been donated to a local boys football club; it had an exposed metal handbrake, only one rear door in working condition and no emergency front exit. He also came across other less dramatic cases, but this one highlighted the fact that many children are being carried around the countryside in vehicles that are not in very good condition. These days many schools have had to give up their playing fields, and children in ordinary state schools have to be conveyed long distances just to take part in team games.
There is also the question of driver training. It is horrifying that anyone can get in and start driving a minibus—anyone with a licence, that is. I believe that the Government should insist on proper training for people who want to undertake this sort of job. They should examine closely whether people know what is involved, whether they have been properly trained and whether they are capable of doing the job. The Government should also consider the rules governing the number of hours people can drive. Fatigue kills, and in a minibus it kills more people at a time.
There are a great many straightforward ideas that the Government could implement rapidly if they were serious about this matter. I am worried about other factors, too, that have a direct impact on road safety. The Government say that they want to do something about saving lives and
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improving road safety. We must take them at their word. It is therefore difficult to understand why the things that they do not seem to chime with the things that they say.
Because of the pressures being brought to bear on police forces, many of them are doing away with their traffic divisions. Those units are not there just to irritate motorists by stopping them when they speed, for example. They are trained to look carefully at road vehicles and to assess road accidents and how much the state of a vehicle contributes to those accidents. If we dissipate this expertise by making many more policemen generalists and fewer of them specialists, standards will inevitably be lowered. Cheshire did away with its traffic police several months ago. I call that a backward step.
The Government have taken the conscious decision to privatise the Transport Research Laboratory. Anyone who has been involved for as long as I have in transport matters will know that the expertise of that laboratory contributed to the fact that we have seat belts at all. Car manufacturers were not exactly fighting to put in extra safety gadgets when the campaign for seat belts began. It was the work done by the scientists at the TRL that produced the information and the specifications used by the Government when they introduced seat belt laws. Privatising the unit is one thing; handing it over to people who want to malke a profit will inevitably diminish the amount and quality of research done on safety. No longer will road safety, vehicle safety or the safety of road surfaces be investigated as thoroughly and as independently as before. The Minister would be foolish to suggest otherwise.
We are also concerned about coaches. Many children are taken to school sitting three abreast on seats designed for two. That may be cheaper for whoever happens to win the contract; it may please education authorities whose budgets are already under pressure. But the fact is that it puts children at risk and it should not be allowed.
The Government have moved away from the enforcement of safeguards in respect of vehicles. I have been questioning the Government for some considerable time about all these matters, because I have been so frightened by some of the statistics that are handed out. Easing up on enforcement and cutting the numbers of specialists will inevitably affect the amount of care available for people who use our road surfaces.
When I read the statistics for my region I became exceedingly worried. The vehicle inspectorate is supposed to carry out roadside vehicle safety spot checks—a task it does well. It monitors private car and light goods vehicle Ministry of Transport schemes and, with the police, it investigates accidents. It considers operator licensing maintenance arrangements. All those tasks are essential in considering road transport. I have seen spot checks carried out on a multi-agency basis and I was impressed by the quality of the tests carried out by both the Metropolitan police and other agencies.
I asked the Department of Transport for the statistics on the number of vehicles inspected throughout Britain and the percentage that were found to be defective. The figures that I received from the Minister were alarming. In the north-west, for example, 38,264 vehicles were inspected and 34 per cent. of them were found to be defective. "Defective" is a nice umbrella word that covers many dangerous defects. The table provided by the Minister showed that 4,982 vehicles had defective tires; 2,195 vehicles had defective wheels; 2,864 vehicles had oil leaks; and 1,669 had -steering defects. The Department's

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own statistics should be a matter of great concern. Far from cutting the number of people who enforce vehicle inspections, we should be increasing it.
There are clear signs that, in their drive to save money, the Government are cutting at every level services that protect the consumer and the passenger. Traffic area offices are responsible for the issue and monitoring of goods and public service operator licences. They are helped by the vehicle inspectorate and they were set up so that standards could be controlled and enforced. Their budgets have already been cut by £406,000 in the past two years and further cuts are expected in the next two years. In Edinburgh and Cardiff, two of the network offices will be shut.
All that together inevitably puts people more at risk. The Deregulation and Contracting Out Bill will remove a lot of protection for people who think that all vehicles are safe and efficient. It is clear that the proposal to issue an operator's licence for life will have an effect. At the moment, people are brought back and checks are made, but if someone receives an operator's licence for life, nothing like the same degree of control will be available to the Department. We are told that the habit will be developed whereby responsibility for licensing will be handed over to dealers. That will be a retrograde and expensive step if people discover that they can cheat the Inland Revenue even more.
Continuous licensing will mean that review processes will weaken and that more rogue operators will slip through the licensing net. Whichever way one looks at it, that will mean lower standards in the road network, and those standards are the only protection for the average member of the public.
People outside the House would be prepared to support the Government if they were to instigate an energetic scheme to consider road safety, particularly in relation to the conveyance of children in minibuses. They do not want to be told that, because of the constraints of the European Community, they will have to wait until 1996 and that, although the Government will do something, it will apply only to children and not to other groups. They will want to know why the Government are not calling together all the voluntary bodies and finding some means of helping them to fund essential changes. If there were real political will, that could be done.
One has to consider only that the Department of Transport has thrown money away on consultants to know that money is available in the public purse, but that the political will is lacking. There should be some means of saying to voluntary bodies, "If you carry people, would you be prepared to talk to us about the means of setting up a funding scheme that would enable you, either by interest-free loans or some other some practical method, not only to modernise your vehicles, but to ensure that they are safe and useful?" I would have thought that the commercial aspect might have concerned the Government. Such a proposal would generate much work in the industry, but it is saving lives that concerns me.
It is not enough to say that, over a particular period, road deaths decreased and there were fewer accidents involving minibuses. More and more people are carried by minibuses as public transport becomes expensive or non-existent. In rural areas, if one wants to take children, old people or a
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specialist group to some activity, one has to provide the transport, which is expensive and frequently causes worry. For the best reasons in the world, such transport is not properly monitored and controlled.
I do not want draconian measures to be pushed without consultation on to voluntary groups, but if the Government were really serious about the issue, they would make a short statement of intent in the Queen's Speech, find a way of producing the cash, and be prepared to insist on something happening in the next 12 months. If they are prepared to invest much money into how to put tolls on motorways, but not to consider urgently the other problems and how to fund measures to solve them, we shall know that their priorities are badly skewed.
Those mums out there rely on the House of Commons to look after their interests. Those dads who are at risk when their children are ferried about the country, sometimes in substandard vehicles, need to know that the Government will do something about it. If they do not, if they do not follow some of the charter lines that have already been set out, we shall know that, as in so many things, the Government's commitment to change is simply a public relations exercise which has little genuine concern behind it.
10.37 am
The Minister for Transport in London (Mr. Steve Norris): I congratulate the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody) on securing a debate on this important subject. It is a pleasure to respond to the points that she made. As of this morning, I am the longest serving Minister in the Department. I grant you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that that is a dubious distinction, but one of which I might as well be proud.
Much of what the hon. Lady said was from the heart and contained a great deal of common sense. I hope that she will find, in the next few minutes, that we agree about a great deal and that we share concerns about a great deal. I hope that I can expose some of our ambitions, either stated or implicit, in this area and some of the difficulties that we face in achieving, as quickly as she and any reasonable person would want, some of the objectives that she outlined. In most senses, this is not a political debate, but I hope that she will forgive me if I chide her on one aspect of her speech which I thought slightly devalued the otherwise important comments that she made.
It simply is not good enough for the hon. Lady to make the sweeping assertion—as she did in relation to the Transport Research Laboratory, the vehicle inspectorate, the traffic area offices and the operator licensing provisions —that our pursuit of greater efficiency, greater economy and better value for the taxpayers' money must necessarily be at the expense of safety. She knows that that is not true. She is too experienced not to be aware that tremendous economies can be achieved in the services that we operate on behalf of taxpayers, while the cornerstone of our improvements remains that safety standards will not be compromised.
The hon. Lady referred to the 38,264 inspections that the vehicle inspectorate carried out last year. I was not briefed on this specific point, because I had not seen it as central to minibus safety, but I recognise that it is germane to the argument. She knows that the statistics show not only that the vehicle inspectorate is doing a good job in identifying people who run inadequate vehicles but that

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more tests are being carried out. We do not simply test at random. Inspectors target vehicles that are likely to be at fault.
Mr. Matthew Banks: Hear, hear.
Mr. Norris: My hon. Friend the Member for Southport (Mr. Banks), who takes a keen interest in transport matters, confirms that inspectors target not recently registered, clearly up to date and modern vehicles but those that might be suspect and, to their credit, they are identifying faults on a proportion that is unacceptably large— I agree with the hon. Lady about that—and are taking action. We now have more action and less administration and bureaucracy in vehicle inspections.
I visited traffic area offices when preparing to take through the operator licensing provisions of the Deregulation and Contracting Out Bill. I am satisfied that none of the Bill's provisions will lower the high standards of traffic area offices' work. We are reducing the administrative tail of such organisations. It is scandalous that whenever we propose to abolish clearly redundant, excessive and burdensome regulations or make any economies in the public service it is portrayed by Opposition Members as a lowering of safety standards.
The hon. Lady knows that that is not true. Like her, my children have been transported on minibuses. We all live in the same world: our children are all exposed to the same risks, and I do not want them to be more exposed to risk any more than she does. I am a motorist. I drive a car and am susceptible to risks from anyone coming towards me. It may be an oncoming motorist who kills me rather than a mistake of mine. I therefore approve of quality testing and safety testing.
What I do not approve of is the extraordinary assumption that we must accept whatever bureaucratic machinery we have and never alter it because to do so would be to betray safety standards or to imply a lowering of our concern over enforcement. The two are not compatible.
The same applies, if the hon. Lady does not mind me saying so, to the way in which police forces are reorganising traffic activities. I assure her that I have always found the commissioner constructive, helpful and concerned about traffic enforcement generally, and the service that the Metropolitan police provide is excellent.
I readily acknowledge that the hon. Lady knows better than me that more than 100,000 minibuses operate in private use and for hire or reward under the permit system or the public service vehicle operating licence. Many thousands of people and voluntary organisations involved with elderly or disabled people are heavily dependent on minibuses. We reckon that about 10 million passenger journeys a year are made by the voluntary sector, and minibuses are a real lifeline to elderly and disabled people and are extremely useful to young people. They are a safe form of transport.
TRL figures for 1987 showed that occupant casualty rates for minibus passengers per number of miles covered were about a third of those for car passengers. As the hon. Lady well knows, the safety of minibus travel compared with car travel has been confirmed by our statistics up to as late as 1993, the latest time for which they are available. But it would be quite wrong for us to say, and she was correct to infer this, that as a result everything is tine and we need not take more urgent action, because every road
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death is one too many. As she said, it does not matter whether the life is young or old or from one's own family or from outside it: road deaths are a tragedy and must be avoided wherever possible.
Against that background, my right hon. Friend the then Secretary of State announced on Tuesday a package of measures to enhance minibus and coach safety through the fitting of seat belts. We need no persuading of the advantages of fitting seat belts, and we want to ensure that they are widely fitted as soon as possible.
At the Luxembourg Transport Council in June, my right hon. Friend called on the Commission to make early progress on proposals for the compulsory fitting of two-point belts to all new minibuses and coaches. He urged it to set the shortest possible timetable. I believe that that is the right longer-term solution. Vehicle standards are, properly, single market measures. Under the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality, it would be nonsense to apply different safety standards across a Community of 12, and soon to be 16, which would have a devastating effect on our export capacity. I am convinced that we must look to Europe for construction and use standards. That is the way to ensure that everyone is properly protected.
The hon. Lady raised some interesting issues—for example, whether the two-point belt or cross-over belt is the more appropriate and whether the implications for fitment and wearing in coaches with high-back seats of different types of belts have been properly considered. All those issues are important and, in so far as they relate to construction and use, discussion of them should be held within the Community.
Mrs. Dunwoody: How long, how long?
Mr. Norris: The hon. Lady says, from a sedentary position, "How long, how long?". That is a line from Shakespeare, but, at this time of the morning, I am afraid that my brain, like yours, I suspect, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is sufficiently fuzzy not to be able to recall from whence. She asks a perfectly valid question: is not all this taking a great deal of time? It will take some time, because the process involves negotiation through the 12 nations of the Community. The hon. Lady is an experienced parliamentarian, especially in relation to some European aviation legislation. She knows exactly how long the timetable will be.
As the hon. Lady and many other people have high expectations of early action, as safety is concerned and as the transport of children is especially sensitive, we have said that we will seek the Commission's agreement for the Government to act ahead of the European Union, to ensure that all minibuses and coaches are fitted with belts when they are used specifically for the transport of children.
That is a fairly straightforward proposition. It requires to be expanded and refined and we are working on the details now, but I assure the hon. Lady that there will be the widest possible consultation on the precise measures, once we have the Commission's views. We shall be taking full account of the concerns of users and of the voluntary groups that own minibuses, which have made such a major contribution to mobility.
I wish that I could give the hon. Lady a firm timetable for that programme today. The hon. Lady knows, from her experience of government, that I cannot do so, but I can

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assure her that it is a matter of the utmost urgency. Subject to the views of the Commission, we hope to go out to consultation this autumn.
We shall also be amending the regulations that permit three children to share a double seat, in cases where seat belts are fitted—the three-for-two rule, with which she is familiar. There is no point in having seat belts fitted if they are not worn. We want children and adults to wear them. Frankly, I know that we have the support of parents, schools, voluntary groups and all those concerned with children's safety when we say so.
Meanwhile, may I take this opportunity to stress one or two matters that perhaps deserve a wider audience. There is nothing to prevent manufacturers from fitting belts to new vehicles in response to customer demand. It is already happening with line-built minibuses, and in most cases there is nothing to stop retro-fitting of belts to existing vehicles. Regulations have been in place since 1987, setting a standard for the fitment of vehicles, and I urge manufacturers and operators to take advantage of them.
There is another condition, called market forces—something that the Labour party often derides. How can market forces work in this respect? I received a letter the other day from a parent, who complained that the local school had transported children in a minibus that did not have seat belts. I wrote back—as the constituency Member of Parliament, rather than a Transport Minister—and confirmed that the school was acting perfectly lawfully, but that if parents were not prepared to allow their children to be transported in a minibus without seat belts they should make that absolutely clear to the head teacher. I sent the head teacher a copy of the letter.
The school rightly took on board that important consideration and I am sure that when it hires minibuses again, the first question it will ask the owner of the minibus, or the person hiring it, is, "Does this minibus have seat belts?" I hope that all those people involved in the occasional hiring of minibuses will do that, so that retro-fitting becomes more rapid and more organisations demand it. When they do, the market will provide it.
In summary, Tuesday's announcement constituted a major step forward for road safety, initially for children and, as soon as possible thereafter, for the public at large.
I know that the hon. Lady's interest goes much further than construction standards. Perhaps it is worth spelling out some of the background on minibus operation. Vehicles that carry nine or more passengers for a payment are classed as PSV vehicles and are obviously subject to operator licensing. The purposes of the system are to keep up the standards of commercial bus and coach operations, impose entry requirements that must be satisfied before a licence is granted, and control operators' performance and compliance with road traffic law.
In 1977, under the then Labour Government, it was recognised that for many non-commercial concerns that system was totally inappropriate, but they would be caught by it if, for example, they collected money from a scout troop by any charge for the trip being undertaken. For that reason, legislation exempted from PSV licensing arrangements minibuses used by voluntary organisations. The provisions of the Minibus Act 1977 were updated in 1987 and extended the types of groups that might apply for permits. They may be issued to organisations concerned
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with education, religion, social welfare, recreation, or other activities of benefit to the community. It is worth pointing out that organisations that have not sought to obtain permits, but operate under those circumstances, are strongly advised to do so.
As the hon. Lady knows, the Secretary of State designated identifiable national voluntary organisations that can issue permits only to their own branches and affiliate organisations, such as the Scout Association. The traffic commissioner acts as an anchor point for the issue of permits to other eligible local organisations.
About 44,000 permits have been issued since 1987, and the organisations covered by the permit scheme are responsible bodies that—as I am sure the hon. Lady agrees —can be trusted to take proper care over driving standards, and safety and vehicle maintenance.
Permit buses must comply with the same construction and equipment standards as other small buses and must be tested annually for road worthiness from the end of their first year. They are also subject to spot checks at the roadside by vehicle inspectors, and to prohibitions if a vehicle is found to be unfit, or likely to become unfit, for service. Permits will be withdrawn if the Traffic Commissioner is not satisfied by the standard of vehicle maintenance.
In a special exercise in the eastern traffic area this year, vehicle examiners inspected a sample of permit holders, just to establish that permits were applicable for the type of operation; that the vehicles were being properly maintained; and that the permit holder was aware of responsibilities in the operation and driving of the permit vehicle. I can let the hon. Lady see some more of the detail of that exercise. I am pleased to say that the results, in relation to the operation of the permit system, were very satisfactory.
Driver hours is another subject on which there has been much discussion. At present, minibuses used in the United Kingdom for private purposes, such as by schools and voluntary groups, are not required to have a tachograph, or to comply with drivers' hours regulations. The argument is that the driving of the minibus is usually only a small part of what the driver does, and the time spent driving is usually short.
When driving is not the main activity and relatively short periods of driving are undertaken, restricting drivers' hours would not be sensible, or effective. Any limitation would need to try to cover working, as opposed to driving, time. That would be extraordinarily difficult and impossible to enforce, not to mention the fact that requiring tachographs to be fitted and used on minibuses would also be expensive and burdensome. By definition, it would restrict the valuable use of minibuses, without making their use safer.
The reality is something on which the hon. Lady expounded and on which I have the same difficulty as her. That is that it is virtually impossible to control what people do prior to driving a vehicle. The vital message that we have to get across is that one should not drive when one is tired and that one should take regular breaks if one is going to undertake a long journey. Please, will people consider using a second driver, where sustained periods of driving might occur, especially at the end of the day?
The hon. Lady mentioned the tragic incidents of which we have all been aware recently. It is not appropriate or right for me to expound on those in any detail, but she and I are both concerned about the sort of situation in which an

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adult takes a group on a day out. The adult might get up early, drive a long way, work with the children all day —keeping stragglers in line, ensuring that they keep their money together, seeing them through the attractions, and giving them a meal in the evening—and then drive the coach again. One must wonder whether it is not appropriate to take a second adult along when one contemplates that burden, just to share the driving load. The hon. Lady is right—the key is to be sensible and to understand just how important it is not to be below par when one is going to drive many other people.
We fully share the hon. Lady's concern about minibus safety. As she knows, we are to improve the driver training regime and public consultation has recently been concluded on a number of issues arising from the second EC directive on driver licensing.
This is an important issue and the hon. Lady's enthusiasm for early action is understandable. I hope that I have demonstrated that the Department is equally committed to early improvement in standards and that the actions announced this week by my right hon. Friend will go a long way towards achieving that.

Space Industry
11 am
Mrs. Cheryl Gillan: I start by paying tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire, West (Mr. McLoughlin), the immediate past Minister with responsibility for space, who has given sterling service to the country and the Government over several years. I remember canvassing for him in the hills of Derbyshire during the by-election at which he entered Parliament in 1986. I am sure that we all wish him well for the future.
I also welcome to the Dispatch Box the Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, my hon. Friend the Member for Esher (Mr. Taylor), and congratulate him on his well-deserved appointment to the Front Bench. I hope that he will always remember that his first debate was on space and that that subject will always be at the top of his list of priorities. I hope that he will find my speech helpful, certainly in setting a new direction for space policy and maximising the United Kingdom's potential in that area. He will find that the space community throughout the world will welcome his appointment and be willing to assist him on every occasion. Perhaps one or two European aspects of my speech will strike a chord with him at this early stage in his ministerial career.
I am delighted to have secured this opportunity to raise the subject of the UK's position in the space industry, an issue that has not been properly debated in the House since 1988. It is also apposite as this week there have been widespread celebrations to mark the 25th anniversary of the moon landing, a remarkable feat for mankind. However, several matters need to be examined urgently in relation to UK space policy, not least because in September 1995 the European Space Agency Ministers' conference will look at the long-term programme, which will obviously be important for European space programmes for the next couple of decades.
The European Space Agency is now producing positioning papers and it is important that the UK participates not only in the ministerial but in the preparatory work. Without the assurance of a modern national space programme, the UK will at best be able only to react to other proposals. Until now we have depended heavily on ESA, and if we are to ensure that the ministerial meeting approves programmes that are useful to the UK, we need to be active in defining what we want to achieve from space activities.
The policies that we laid down in 1988 and the funding level are not producing the results that we intended, and there is evidence that they could even be damaging the chances of our space industry becoming competitive in a very competitive market. It is also urgent because we now have to take into account important new players in the European space scene, particularly the European Commission which has a potentially significant new role both as a user of space systems—earth observation is just one example—and, complementary to ESA, to help European industry benefit from large new marketing opportunities in, for example, navigation.
ESA was set up some 30 years ago to create a European space industry and to ensure that Europe could gain a foothold in an area that was then dominated by the space war between the USA and the USSR. At that time my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade represented

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the UK as a junior Minister and showed his great ability in conducting the negotiations that established ESA. It would now be most helpful if the President could again inspire the UK to a leadership role in reconstructing ESA to meet the needs of Europe for the next 20 or 30 years.
Until the mid-1980s, ESA was a great success. It helped to establish the European communications satellite industry, notably in the UK, which led to the creation of Inmarsat and Eutelsat, both of which were originally based on ESA satellites. It also provided the basic industrial infrastructure leading to the successful military communications satellites of which the latest Skynet 4 version has been bought by NATO in preference to US military satellites.
ESA also led in the production of meteorological satellites which are the basis of Eumetsat and the daily pictures on TV weather reports. Those technologies have led to the new generation of earth observation satellites, especially ERS 1 with its all-weather observation capabilities for which the radar was developed in the United Kingdom. ESA also has highly regarded international scientific programmes for astronomy and solar system science in which the United Kingdom's scientific community and our industries play an important role: For example, the space probe Giotto was built in the UK.
I am sad to say that the UK took only a small part in the final ESA success, the Ariane launcher. I say "sad" because Ariane is now winning over half the commercial launches that are put out to global competition. That success is bringing considerable benefit to the industries in those countries that decided to take a share. Since we use Ariane launchers for Skynet and pay a share of the cost of the launches that are required by ESA, we are contributing to work which largely goes to benefit space industries in countries other than our own.
However, I must not fail to acknowledge our contribution to the manufacture of the very accurate guidance system for Ariane and also the SPELDA system that separates the satellites as they are released into space. Those are impressive British accomplishments. During the 1980s, ESA decided to pursue a policy of seeking full autonomy in space for Europe and particularly for man in space, an aspect on which we have relied on US co-operation. The programme that was decided upon included continuing co-operation with the United States through the newly proposed space station in which Japan and Canada were also to be partners. But autonomy in putting man in space was to be achieved through an ambitious space plane—Hermes. Furthermore, this was to be achieved by the year 2000.
That ambitious programme was approved at the ESA ministerial meeting in The Hague in 1987, notwithstanding the fact that it required a doubling of the ESA annual budget. The UK refused to join on the ground that it was an expensive endeavour to achieve what the USA and the USSR had achieved 20 years earlier. In the aftermath of the demise of the USSR and one or two dramatic failures in the NASA programme, especially the failure of Challenger, money for space activities was put under more political scrutiny both in the United States and in the European countries.
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NASA has had difficulties in funding the international space station, even with the new involvement of Russia. ESA Ministers found the escalating costs of ESA and especially Hermes unacceptable. Consequently, ESA has abandoned Hermes and is seeking a programme within, at best, level funding which Ministers might approve next year.
I have outlined that to show that ESA has served Europe well, but that it now appears to have lost its way in the prevailing political circumstances. Since we have funded most of our space activities through ESA, the uncertainties surrounding the programme and its direction is damaging to us and to our industries. That is why I am encouraging my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade and our new Minister to renew interest in ESA and to help to seek a new role that will suit our purposes as well as those of the rest of Europe.
We need strong political leadership, because our refusal to support the man in space programme and the subsequent decisions to leave our funding at the existing level, has left us outside the main stream of ESA thinking. It is ironic that being proved right about Hermes has not endeared us to those who have tried and failed.
Due to our perceived attitude to space, the United Kingdom has lost much of its influence, not only in ESA, but in all parts of the world. That does not affect only the British national space centre; the effect inevitably rubs off on British industry, too. More to the point, the fact that we have placed a ceiling on expenditure, which is committed for the next few years, means that we cannot join new programmes, however meretricious, except, possibly, at a derisory level. That is bound to be damaging to our industries and is hardly likely to leave us in an influential position of forming new ESA policies, if we cannot participate.
I shall mention just three cases in point. We cannot join the new ESA communications technology programme, even though our industries are prepared to contribute 50 per cent. of the funding themselves—unique in Europe. We are offering a very small contribution to the ESA share of the second generation meteorological satellite, which will damage our industries' chance of taking part in the operational programme, for which satellites will be needed for the next 20 years.
ESA is starting to examine the next century's generation of launchers, in the Festive programme, in which our ideas on the horizontal take-off and landing launcher or alternative systems have been world leaders. A share in that would be of major benefit to our capabilities in the areas of advanced materials, avionics, software and to all markets in which we presently have some eminence. If we cannot participate in all those programmes, we shall severely damage our competitiveness and, perhaps, the existence of the many capabilities which our ESA contributions have helped us to create over the years.
The situation is made worse by the fact that the modest national programme, which the Department of Trade and Industry has always funded to help our industries to achieve success in the applications market, is being seriously eroded over the next few years. The space industry is no longer what we instinctively think—or rather thought—it to be. Its constituency has widened, so that many companies, such as those in the service industry, now use space as one component in their portfolio of activities.

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They will not be able to operate successfully unless there is some judicious, planned and sustained Government direction and investment.
It is often said that industry is primarily responsible for making itself competitive. I know that our own industry accepts that challenge, but in partnership with Government, as I have outlined. This week, we have seen the merger of our largest companies, Matra Marconi and British Aerospace Space Systems, bringing together their complementary capabilities, which will put the single company in a much better position to compete effectively.
I welcome that change, but I recognise that we have smaller companies with space capabilities, such as those represented by ASTOS, based in my constituency. Those companies also need to understand the sense of purpose in Government policy if they are to thrive. It is, after all, the smaller companies that are likely to achieve the growth in jobs which we all want to see as one of the products of our space policy. A rethink of space policy on what we want to achieve and how we want to achieve it is necessary and necessary now. The policies of 1988 may have been right then, but they do not seem to be right now.
I mentioned earlier the entry of new players on the space scene. When I visited Brussels last week, with colleagues from the parliamentary space committee, we were delighted to hear how the Commission has come to recognise that there are a number of things which it can do to help European industry to achieve benefit from space activities. The Commission is already the biggest single user of satellite earth observation data.
In recent years, DO VI, the agricultural directorate, has come to use those data for assessing crop yields, and I especially look forward to it using the data to help combat common agricultural policy fraud. That alone could ultimately represent major financial savings to the European Union on the escalating costs of detecting fraud. Several directorates use data for dealing with environmental problems in the European Union and, in developing countries, for example, for mapping and exploration of natural resources.
The Commission is also conducting with ESA an important study on how we can handle and distribute earth observation data in Europe to benefit those who can use the information. By the end of the century, there will be enormous quantities of data pouring down from earth observation satellites which are already planned. We need to agree how we can best handle that data in Europe, but eventually, we shall need co-operation on a global scale very much as was envisaged at the environment conference in Rio.
The Commission is also making progress in reaching agreement in Europe on satellite navigation. In that area, there are massive opportunities for our industries; airlines, ships, cars, and lorries. Europe has a strong involvement at present in satellite navigation systems and we need to ensure that we at least maintain that position and that we do not lose out to the United States or Japan in the future.
There are other areas requiring Commission involvement: negotiating for a level playing field for our satellite industries and for the Ariane launcher; regulation of satellite communication in Europe; and negotiating, especially with the USA, on future mobile systems. Those would be useful negotiations which require action at a European level.
I hope that I have given the House the flavour of my argument—we have an urgent need to review space policy.
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We have important interests to protect and some exciting new fields to explore and exploit. Our level of funding for national programmes and our contributions to ESA should not be related to some historical level of funding. At the international level, and especially in ESA, we need to show how our policies of favouring space applications, with which many countries have come to share, can bring benefit through the adoption of market-led policies.
At the same time, we need to support our industries where they face competition, not least from United States companies, which have received support from their own Government. In due course, we may be able to persuade other Governments to reduce their support, but I am afraid that we are not there by a long way yet.
Space is no longer the sole province of the space enthusiast, although I hope that those enthusiasts will continue to point the way not least for our children, for whom space is a great incentive to study science and technology. I have tried to indicate some of the economic and social benefits which space activities may bring to earth. With the fresh thinking in other countries, it is the right moment for us to review our policies and re-engage in international planning for space activities, which can achieve our objectives. It would be a great pity if the 25th anniversary of the Apollo landing also heralded the abandonment of space by the UK because of its apathy towards policy and future planning and expenditure.
In September, ESA will be present at the Farnborough air show for the first time in 15 years. I know that 'we welcome it to that venture. The UK will also host the first European parliamentarians conference on space. I hope that the Under-Secretary of State will be able to send the right messages to ESA, to our industrialists and especially to that conference, so that we can again lead Europe on the formation of space policy as we did 30 years ago.
11.18 am
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Mr. Ian Taylor): It is a particular pleasure to reply to the debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs. Gillan) is a great expert in these matters; she has pursued the subject of space with great expertise and knowledge since arriving in the House. I admit to the House that it is a subject with which I am somewhat less familiar.
Certainly, I did not expect to have the honour of replying to my hon. Friend until a short time before she got to her feet. However, that is one of the excitements of assuming a ministerial office and learning about the portfolios that one is honoured to have at one's disposal.
My hon. Friend made a timely contribution, because there is no doubt that space is a subject of enormous interest to British industry, which she stressed, and, of course, for reasons which any cursory glance at the television would show, it is of great interest to the British public and to the public around the world.
The extraordinary events that we are seeing on our television screens are the result of much hard work in the past by industry. Therefore, the timing of the debate is particularly appropriate. It has been a long time since the previous debate on space in the House, which I am told took place in 1988. I am delighted to have this opportunity to reply to my hon. Friend.
As my hon. Friend said, yesterday we celebrated the 25th anniversary of the first manned landing on the moon.

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The Shoemaker-Levy comet, as it disintegrated and descended into Jupiter, has had the most extraordinary effect in galvanising public opinion behind what can be achieved by the technology that is available to us in monitoring such events.
We should draw attention to the role that the Hubble space telescope has played in monitoring the Shoemaker-Levy comet and to the remarkable corrective action that was taken last year on the telescope to enable us now to have a wealth of new information for analysis by the scientific and astronomical community worldwide. We in Britain can take justifiable pride in the contribution that we have made to the telescope. It reminds us of the high regard in which our space science is held worldwide, which my hon. Friend underlined. We have an industry of which we can be proud.
We have also played our part in the European Space Agency's Ulysses mission, which has been able to observe the event from space. The British public should appreciate the role that we have played in ensuring that these dramatic events can be seen.
There are other examples, of course. In 1985, United Kingdom industry led the development of the Giotto mission to intercept Halley's comet. That proved to be an outstanding success. It was also United Kingdom industry which primed all ESA's satellite telecommunications missions which have flown so far.
Our major contribution to the Earth remote sensing satellites has provided—it will continue to do so—a wealth of data about the Earth and the development of its environment.
An important feature of these achievements is that they are possible through our collaboration with other nations in pursuing space activities. It is clear that no nation—not even a super-power—can afford the cost of major space missions in today's economic climate. Indeed, it may not be possible for a nation to try to meet the cost, given the exchange of know-how that can take place with other countries.
That was not always the case. America and Russia separately pioneered space programmes, for example. As my hon. Friend remarked, co-operation is now the order of the day. In that sense, the space race between nations is over and the old rivalry has been merged into co-operative ventures. We have only to have regard to the efforts to include Russian participation in the international space station to perceive how much progress has already been made in that context.
We are talking about new opportunities, but they will bring problems of adjustment. We are working closely with our partners in ESA in adapting the agency's operations to the new situation.
The other major change since the epic first steps on the moon has been the emergence of an identifiable commercial requirement for space telecommunications, broadcasting, navigation and business services. My hon. Friend mentioned all those items. Governments are no longer the only players in space, so our attention has turned to industry's need to be competitive in world space markets.
That is an important part of the responsibilities of the Department of Trade and Industry. My former responsibilities as parliamentary private secretary to the then
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Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster gave me a great insight into the wide range of input that comes from the science community. The Government's science budget is operated through research councils and is dealt with by the Cabinet Office.
The House will be aware that the Government's White Paper on competitiveness was a result of extensive consultation with industry, taking account of experience in identifying the key factors that determine success for world-class companies in the international market. Particular attention must be paid by the Government to creating a stable macro-economic environment and to fair and open markets. At the same time, our firms should be committed to innovation, quality and better management practice, for example. Space can be no exception to the need for partnership between industry and Government. I was delighted to hear my hon. Friend underline that.
The House will wish to be told that the British National Space Centre is this morning consulting a broad cross-section of United Kingdom space companies on the full range of issues raised in the White Paper, including further development of an export strategy which involves our embassies, export promoters, trade specialists and, of course, industrial managers and market specialists.
My hon. Friend referred to telecommunications. Over the past year, the BNSC has worked closely with companies and trade associations to agree a strategy for that sector of the space industry, taking account of business opportunities, perceived barriers to markets and realistic levels of resource.
Companies in the United Kingdom and elsewhere in Europe meet various forms of tariff and non-tariff barriers in international markets. The Government are already heavily engaged in reducing those barriers. We work closely with the European Commission on conditions of trade.
The Government set out their civil space policy in a statement to the House in 1988, to which we have firmly adhered. Its key elements have been, and continue to be, to develop and introduce work space technologies. That is carried out principally by selective and cost-effective use of ESA programmes. Additionally, our national programme is aimed at achieving further exploitation of our investment in ESA, alongside necessary investment by industry.
The first priority objective of our policy has been, the development of Earth observation for environmental and long-term purposes. Again, my hon. Friend mentioned that. The second objective is to help industry to take advantage of past investment to make a commercial success of satellite communications and, where appropriate, to foster development of specialised telecommunications technologies for niche markets. The third objective is the maintenance of a sound space science base. I can assure my hon. Friend that our membership of ESA remains an important part of our space policy.
The space agency has undoubtedly been a source of many successful missions and developments in space technologies. The agency, with the United Kingdom as the lead participant, laid the foundations for today's thriving satellite telecoms sector. With the United Kingdom as a major proponent, the agency is at the forefront of Earth observation. Our contribution to the ESA science programme has been and still is extremely successful. The UK is playing a leading role in ESA's major contribution

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to our understanding of the Earth's environment through the successful Earth remote sensing satellite and its future missions.
Our main driving force is to identify and develop the applications of Earth observation data that are available from ESA and other sources. We are working on potential commercial applications in agriculture, fishenes and transport, ensuring that UK companies are in a good position to exploit market opportunities. In addition, the BNSC is working with the EU, which is a potentially large user of environmental information. I was glad that my hon. Friend discussed co-operation between the various directors-general of the European Commission. It is an extremely important matter. I am delighted that the Commission is becoming effective in attempting to gain the most out of the ESA programme.
With regard to telecommunications, it is useful to look beyond ESA and to consider sources of investment and the Government's role. Over many years, we have led, or have been a major subcontractor, for a series of very successful telecommunications or communications satellites. As the perception of a real market for space telecommunications has matured, Governments have created European and international satellite operating companies.
European manufacturers, in a strong position from success in ESA programmes, have had considerable success in supplying those operators. As they are exposed to international competition for their service, those operators expect European industry to be competitive with United States suppliers.
Sir Peter Emery: I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. I simply wanted to congratulate him, as an old friend, on his first appearance at the Dispatch Box. It gives me the greatest pleasure to be able to do that.
Mr. Taylor: That intervention has not thrown me, although I am delighted by my right hon. Friend's comments. I am grateful to him, and I hope that all his subsequent interventions on me at the Dispatch Box will be as kind and generous.
As I was saying, operators in the European industry must be competitive with United States suppliers. As markets for telecommunications, weather forecasting, broadcasting and so on have become more mature, opportunities have become available outside Europe.
Although there have been successes, European companies have faced fierce competition from American contractors who benefit from their large civil and defence home markets. Reductions in American defence expenditure have heightened that competition.
The United Kingdom and European industry acknowledges the need continually to improve competitiveness, particularly on time and price, to win a more significant slice of opportunities in Japan, China, Korea and elsewhere. The Department of Trade and Industry is very much behind those efforts.
Increased Government expenditure on research and development would have little direct effect. In these circumstances, we must be driven by British industry. Action by Government to create fair open markets, and by European industry to increase competitiveness, can have a decisive influence.
However, ESA programmes continue to provide real opportunities to develop scientific instruments, technology, components and applications relevant to
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telecommunications and European markets. We contribute to a numbe. of aimed development programmes which are consistent with our overall policy.
Some emerging markets require a more global and more rapid response than ESA has traditionally provided. The market in satellite navigation is an example of that. My hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham referred to that point and, in so doing, revealed her considerable knowledge of that sector.
The British National Space Centre is currently talking with ESA, Eurocontrol and the Department of Trade and Industry about the next generation of air traffic navigation systems in order to ensure European success in that market.
Mrs. Gillan: Does my hon. Friend agree that an important dimension to those discussions should include the European Commission, which can provide a larger overview of the requirements of the whole of the European Union, including the new members that we expect to join shortly?
Mr. Taylor: My hon. Friend makes a very important point. Quite often in this country, we tend to want to downplay the Commission. However, when the Commission acts in such areas, it acts in Britain's interests to gain the maximum advantage from the high technology opportunities available and because, as I said earlier, it is essential that we have co-operation between countries and industries on a cross-national basis in this area.
No one country is capable of making a proper contribution. In such circumstances, it makes sense for the Commission to play a leading role. I have learnt a great deal from my hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham this morning about the way in which directorates-general are co-operating. Having assumed my ministerial responsibilities, it is clear that I will be greatly involved in those discussions.
New Ministers are always amused when they discover what is planned for them, in respect of which they have had no say. However, I understand that there will be discussions in the European Union in which I will take part. Those discussions will enable me to understand the points that my hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham has made and to see just how effective co-operation between the directorates-general is.
As my hon. Friend pointed out, there are practical civil applications, across the board, from the knowledge that we are gaining from many of our space activities. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for drawing the attention of the House to those points.
Mrs. Gillan: Perhaps I can hearten my hon. Friend by informing him that, in my discussions last week with Commission representatives, they were not backward in coming forward in praising the attitude, stance and capabilities of our United Kingdom representatives who, from time to time, find themselves in discussions across the directorates-general in respect of the subject that we are discussing today. I pass on to my hon. Friend the fact that the officials and representatives who are exposed to those directorates-general in the Commission are already very user-friendly towards the United Kingdom delegation.
Mr. Taylor: That is very valuable news, and I look forward to co-operating with my hon. Friend as I learn about the various activities.

583
My hon. Friend made an important point. It is not only officials who must be abreast of the developments; Members of Parliament must also be abreast of them. My hon. Friend referred to the recent visit of the parliamentary committee. There is also to be a conference of parliamentarians next year in this country. That is quite right and proper. We should take a lead. The parliamentary space committee, with which I had some dealings in my former existence in the Office of Public Service and Science, is impressive in the way in which it initiates discussions and takes a lead in its links with industry and the European Union.
I am delighted about the conference, and look forward to learning more about the timetable and planning and what we in the DTI can do to assist. It is important for us to be prodded by colleagues in the House who have a particularly specialist interest. As a Minister, I look forward to being prodded by my hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham in the months to come.
Co-operation between the Government and industry is very important. As I said, the BNSC is currently talking to ESA, Eurocontrol and the DTI about the next generation of air traffic navigation systems under the general heading of satellite navigation. A company in my constituency has been involved in those discussions.
It is important to try to get industry to come forward with research and development money and to enable the United Kingdom contribution to ESA to be the broadest possible across Government and industry. I am satisfied that the present provision in the national programme covers the key essentials, particularly in relation to our priority objectives in Earth observation.
Our emphasis is, and will be, on value for money both in the conduct of ESA's operations and in encouraging the most cost-effective approach to the provision of all space and space-related services.
My hon. Friend will know that, sometimes, with exciting issues such as space, which is easily capable of pulling the imagination with it, with the phenomenal things that we now see on television, there is sometimes a feeling that value for money and efficiency should not be part of the equation and that money should be spent because it is a good thing. I know that my hon. Friend does not share that view, and, as a Minister, I certainly do not share that view.
If something is as good as the whole technology which has driven forward the space programme, it is important for the Government to encourage industry to get the best value for money out of its activities and to concentrate on the matters that it can do best. In areas where resources in any one industry or country are inadequate, we must consider important prospects for the co-operation to which we have made reference.
There is to be a ministerial conference in late 1995. We are considering the future direction of the agency's programme. That conference is already an important part of the calendar. There will be many preparatory meetings on a bilateral and European basis, and the agenda will be of enormous importance. If I may be so bold in my first appearance at the Dispatch Box, I invite the parliamentary
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space committee to put forward ideas well in advance. Perhaps the ministerial conference and the parliamentarians' conference, which my hon. Friend has informed the House about, could make sure that our agendas have rapprochement so that we do not end up trying to second-guess each other on the these matters.
Mrs. Gillan: I thank my hon. Friend for his generous invitation to the parliamentary space committee. I am sure that my fellow officers of the committee will respond to it in due course. I am extremely heartened already to know that my hon. Friend is listening to, and is willing to take on board, fresh ideas, and expects, particularly in the run-up to September 1995, to participate in the discussions during the lead-in period to the EC ministerial conference.
Mr. Taylor: We will be in touch with my hon. Friend and the other officers of the parliamentary space committee to work out how we can best gain advantage from those two conferences.
I agree with my hon. Friend that there have been many significant changes to the political, defence and economic environment in recent years, although those changes have brought our partners in ESA closer to our position—that is, putting space to work—rather than creating a diversity of view. As events have turned out, our decision not to take part in a European manned space programme was sensible, although, of course, it might have been exciting. The main planks of our space policy remain valid, and, indeed, other ESA partners are realigning their policies more closely with United Kingdom objectives.
My hon. Friend mentioned several changes that are now taking place. I had also noticed the British Aerospace deal with Matra Marconi. I might even visit the company to see what progress is being made. I have already mentioned that I have Logica Space and Defence in my constituency, and it will be interesting to be able to visit that company as the Minister, as opposed to just an interested Back-Bencher. Such excitement lies in wait for me in the programme that I am now honoured to be able to follow from the Front Bench.
Overall, my industrial and business background tells me that nothing will be successful in this very exciting sector unless it is firmly based on a cost-effective programme. We must not try to do things that we cannot follow through. We have constraints on our budgets. My hon. Friend mentioned that the Department of Trade and Industry budget is not exactly expanding, but it is only part of a much broader Government contribution to the British National Space Centre, and other Departments are co-operating.
My hon. Friend mentioned the European Space Agency's telecommunications technology programme. The Government are contributing to some parts of the technology framework known as the ARTES. We are very open to influence by industry, perhaps to switch between the various subjects. At the moment, there are commitments to elements of ARTES 1 and 4, and we propose to join ARTES 9, but we will listen closely to representations. Overall, the co-operation between British industry and the Government is working well. Certainly, we are very keen indeed to see a proper and effective European Space Agency working in this very exciting sector.

ROYAL ASSENT
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Janet Fookes): I have to notify the House, in accordance with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that the Queen has signified Her Royal Assent to the following Acts and Measures:

Appropriation Act 1994

Land Drainage Act 1994

Trade Marks Act 1994

Inshore Fishing (Scotland) Act 1994

Merchant Shipping (Salvage and Pollution) Act 1994

Police and Magistrates' Courts Act 1994

Education Act 1994

Firearms (Amendment) Act 1994

Lerwick Harbour Order Confirmation Act 1994

Croydon Tramlink Act 1994

London Local Authorities Act 1994

London Docklands Development Corporation Act 1994

Hill Samuel Bank and United Dominions Trust Act 1994

Greater Nottingham Light Rapid Transit Act 1994

Care of Cathedrals (Supplementary Provisions) Measure 1994

Church of England (Legal Aid) Measure 1994

Antarctic Treaty
11.46 am
Mr. Jeremy Corbyn: I welcome the Minister to his first outing on this brief. What finer start could there be to a ministerial career in the Foreign Office than to deal with the problems of Antarctica? I hope that it means that there is now a Minister for the Antarctic to give the topic the seriousness it deserves.
This is not the first time that I have raised matters concerning Antarctica, and I suspect that it will not be the last. I hope that, with his breakfast briefing this morning, the Minister read carefully my Adjournment debate in 1991 and those of other hon. Members on this matter. It is a matter to which several hon. Members keep returning for several reasons, mainly because we passionately want the Antarctic to be preserved as a zone of peace, as a place that is permanently protected environment, and also as a place that is free from mineral exploration and exploitation. The history of this subject is one of see-saws in many respects.
That continent has been appallingly exploited in the past, particularly for its mammal population. Apart from memories of Antarctic whaling, it has also been a place of great inspiration and great scientific discovery. The hole in the ozone layer was discovered through the work of the British Antarctic survey in Antarctica. The levels of lead pollution in our atmosphere were discovered by taking core samples of ice, and we were also able to measure increases in the carbon dioxide pollution of our atmosphere and global warming.
Many of us strongly opposed the Antarctic Minerals Act 1989. It was with great pleasure that we saw the environmental protection protocol agreed in Madrid in 1991. It was an enormous step forward. That protocol brought forward the concept of comprehensive environmental protection and a number of principles surrounding it. One was that the continent should be a place of environmental protection, including the protection of biological intrinsic wilderness and aesthetic and scientific values, and that there should be controls on and planning of all activities there, be they scientific activities, tourist activities or expeditions of various sorts.
Arguments about mineral activities have gone on for a long time. The protocol banned all mineral exploration and exploitation for 50 years. Consideration may be given after 25 years to what might happen in the future, but perhaps it is now time to think ahead and to try to create the concept for a permanent wilderness park rather than the idea that, at some point, there might be the possibility of exploration there.
The technology does not exist for mineral exploration or exploitation of the area, but clearly it could exist in time. The Madrid protocol went forward to establish the principles of the Antarctic Act which passed through the House not long ago. From that, we then looked forward to the passage of similar Acts of Parliament from the other 26 treaty countries. It is important for those Parliaments also to agree, because unless there is agreement by at least the original signatories to the 1959 treaty, the future of the Antarctic is in doubt.
There are flaws within the treaty system, and also within the Act, in that not every country in the world has signed the treaty. A country which was not a signatory to the treaty and the protocol and had not agreed to any of the environmental protection measures could, theoretically,

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exploit the Antarctic. We hope that that will not be the case and that others will in time come forward and support the principles behind it.
We must look ahead to what we will do in that context, because the need to settle disputes is important. The continent is overridden with a series of often conflicting territorial claims from Britain, Australia, New Zealand, Argentina, Chile and a number of others. Nations have bases in Antarctica for scientific research, and the possibility of disputes surrounding either the claims or the activities of those bases is considerable.
The importance of moving quickly on that matter cannot be over-emphasised. In the discussions that took place about the Madrid protocol, there was agreement on environmental impact assessments of any activity going on there. There was also agreement on the conservation of fauna and flora, including, for example, the removal of all dogs from the Antarctic from April 1994. I understand that the dogs have all been removed, with the huskies at the British base going to Canada.
It is important that there is an emphasis on waste disposal and management. Greenpeace expeditions to the Antarctic and its examination of British, American, French, Russian and other bases showed that the standards of waste management varied greatly. As it is an area of low precipitation, and it is obviously a cold part of the world, biodegradation is very slow. Pollution is very much to the fore.
The protocols on waste disposal and management are important, as is the protocol on marine pollution. Sewage, oil or garbage seeping into the sea will not self-destruct quickly, and damage can be caused by that. There is also the question of protected areas within Antarctica, including the whale sanctuary which is very popular and is wholly to be welcomed.
We must now look at the future of the Madrid protocol and where we go from here. If the protocol is to mean anything—all the words in it were, in many senses, in response to pressure from environmental groups around the world which, with popular support, had a vision that the continent could be preserved as a zone of peace and a protected zone—something must be done.
It is not enough to pass the Act through the House. The Minister will be aware from reading the concluding debate on Report and Third Reading of the Antarctic Bill that a number of hon. Members from both sides of the House expressed concern that the passage of the Act was not enough, and that the date in which it came into operation internationally was crucial.
Within the treaty is the idea of the establishment of a treaty secretariat, and that is very important. At the moment, each time there is a consultative meeting, the host nation becomes the organiser of the next meeting. There is no permanent secretariat, but a rotating secretariat which is handed from Government to Government. That is not a particularly satisfactory way of going on. There are different standards of administration and different amounts of resources are placed in the hands of the secretariat. There is not an on-going repository of information or advice on Antarctica which can be readily accessed by different groups around the world.
The 28th Antarctic treaty consultative meeting was held in Kyoto in April, and it established the transitional
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environment working group as an interim step towards the eventual committee of environmental protection which is required in the protocol. The next host nation, I understand, will be Korea, which is undertaking the work of preparing for that next meeting.
There is no permanent secretariat, but around the world there is a wealth of information and knowledge concerning Antarctica—much of it good, much benign. But there are also people around the world who have a less benign attitude towards Antarctica. They may see the possibilities of mineral exploration or exploitation in the future and there are those who may want to undertake tourist visits to Antarctica. The protocol and treaty specifically include the possibility of tourist visits and methods of tourism within Antarctica, but it is very important that those are controlled.
Visits to Antarctica by bases and the methods of administration of the bases which share information and standards concerning waste disposal and other equally important issues must be dealt with. We then have to look at who will permanently host the secretariat in the future, and it is important that we recognise what has happened up to now. There has been a changed attitude and atmosphere towards Antarctica, and people all around the world understand and accept it as a zone of peace and of scientific research. There must be an agreement on the administration of policies and a repository for information and advice.
I understand that the commanders in a number of the bases in Antarctica which belong to different countries have still not received copies of the protocol, and do not know what is in it. I am not saying that specifically about British bases, but other countries' bases certainly do not have it.
We must look at a location for the secretariat. There are five gateway nations to Antarctica—Chile, Argentina, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand. They have enormous interests in Antarctica, as do a number of other countries, including the United States, Britain, Russia, Japan, Germany and others which have had bases there or which will have bases in the future.
I should be interested to hear the Minister's reply and his analysis of British strategy towards the southern oceans, because there has been a welcome change in attitude concerning Antarctica. However, there has also been the declaration of a zone of economic activity around South Georgia. How does that square with the attitude towards Antarctica as a zone of peace, rather than of exploration? I should be interested to hear what the Minister has to say about that.
I would also like to know what the attitude of the Minister is towards the siting of the secretariat, because it is essential that that functions for the effective application of the environmental protocol. I understand that Britain is blocking the offer by Argentina to host the secretariat in Buenos Aires. Argentina is a gateway nation, has had a base in Antarctica for a very long time and has undertaken scientific research there. The credibility of the British involvement in Antarctica could be seriously damaged if the blocking tactic continues.
Surely it is time to recognise that if agreement can be reached among the treaty nations—which apparently it can —on siting the secretariat in Argentina, that is where it should go. All the progress that has been made on environmental protection could be held up by the intransigence of Britain, which says that it does not want

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the secretariat in Argentina. I assume that that is because of the disputes over the Falklands, but it works in the opposite direction as well. Argentina clearly disagrees with Britain about the Falklands. We heard in a debate on Latin America last night that there is now a great deal of understanding and discussion between the British and Argentine Governments. We heard that from the lips of the Minister at 2.30 this morning.
To understand the importance of siting the secretariat, we have to recognise that, if there is no co-ordinating body, much of what has been achieved, including environmental protection measures as well as the guidelines on tourist activity, which are very important, will be put at risk.
If we wanted to keep the Antarctic absolutely pure, the ideal solution would be to stop anyone other than authorised scientists and those working research stations going there. It would be difficult to do that. It is probably well nigh impossible to prevent tourist visits to Antarctica. People will want to go there. Indeed, many of us would welcome the opportunity to visit such a pristine and beautiful place.
If there are to be tourists, their activities must be controlled and we must have an absolute guarantee from tour operators about flights and the like, about how tourists will behave, that their rubbish will be taken home with them, that if they go by sea, suitable vessels which will be unlikely to founder on ice or rock will be used and that some form of rescue will be available.
The horrifying crash of the Air New Zealand aeroplane is all too recent in memory. We must recognise the problems of getting people back from Antarctica if a disaster happens. Operations would have to be of high quality and run by extremely experienced people. That means that guidelines on tourist activities must be drawn up. Potential tour operators and tourists will have to understand what they can and cannot do.
Tourists may also take part in land-based tourism. Bases might be opened for guests to stay for a few days, weeks or whatever to experience what life is like in the Antarctic. Unless there is agreement on the siting of the secretariat, the administration of the tourist protocol and the arguments surrounding tourism will be difficult to resolve. II look forward to the Minister saying that Britain is prepared to agree to the siting and establishment of the secretariat with all speed. That would be a signal to countries that have not yet succeeded in ratifying the treaty. I understand that several are still in the process of ratification and that by this time next year more than half the treaty nations should have achieved ratification through their national Parliaments. The faster we move, the more rapidly we can protect the Antarctic.
The Minister will undoubtedly tell me that there are lots of problems surrounding the siting of the secretariat and that other places should be considered. If a treaty system is established which requires a secretariat, it has to go somewhere. It happens for every treaty. When the United Nations was established, there was enormous discussion about where the permanent home should be. Eventually, for better or worse, for good or ill, it was agreed that it should go to New York, and in New York it has been ever since. Some people might not like it, but it has gone there.
Other secretariats have gone to other places. It must be said that, mainly, international secretariats of organisations have been sited in Europe or North America. It is important to recognise that the Antarctic treaty secretariat does not have to be sited in an English-speaking country. It could be
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one of the South American countries. It would seem that Argentina leas a strong claim to house the secretariat, and I hope that the Minister will confirm that that is a possibility.
The criteria for housing the secretariat have to be neutrality, commitment, research programme and capability. While there are obviously judgments to be made on those matters, it seems that a country that is one of the nearest—there might be discussion as to whether Chile or Argentina is absolutely the nearest to Antarctica—has a claim. In view of Argentina's attitude to Antarctica and support for the treaty process, it seems to fulfil all the qualifications and to be capable of housing the secretariat. It would be welcome and helpful to site it in Argentina.
I shall conclude, to give the Minister sufficient time to reply. Perhaps he will be good enough to give way if I seek to intervene to clarify some points.
We should recognise how far we have come on Antarctica. If it had not been for the work of environmental groups, particularly Greenpeace International, including the surveys of the bases, the campaigning work throughout the world to protect the whales and mammal species in Antarctica and the campaign to include the sea bed in the treaty—I hope that it will be included at a later date when unfinished business has been completed—we would not have come so far. Greenpeace International in particular is to be congratulated on the work it has done. I hope that it will be able to continue.
The inclusion of the idea of a whale sanctuary around the Antarctic is wholly welcome. It recognises the danger to mammals in the sea and the horrific stories that have passed into legend about how the whales have been treated. They are supremely intelligent beings capable of communicating and travelling over many thousands of miles. They are enormous creatures. They have been hunted to near extinction in Antarctica. We hope that those days are behind us, but the problem is that the whale sanctuary has to be policed. We need a policing system to ensure that countries do not try to break into the sanctuary and illegally take whales.
In the past, many countries have taken whales. They include Japan, with its so-called scientific whaling. The Soviet Union lied about the number of whales it caught in the region. The whale sanctuary will also promote an understanding of the need for the overall protection of the whale species. Whales migrate vast distances. Perhaps while the Minister is about it he will make it clear that the British Government deplore the Norwegian attitude to whaling and Norway's apparent determination to continue the brutality of killing whales in the northern hemisphere. I hope that we can move to total protection of the whale species throughout the world. That would be very welcome indeed.
We have come an awfully long way on the issue of Antarctica. Some of us have spent a lot of time on it. We shall not give up merely because we do not yet have a siting for the secretariat. We want to see it sited and the treaty brought into operation. We want the continent to be protected. Above all, it would surely be a message to everyone in the world that, if we can protect that continent and learn so much from its natural history, we can change attitudes to protecting our natural world, in which we need to survive.
12.7 pm
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr. David Davis): I congratulate the hon. Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn) on obtaining the Adjournment debate today. He is right. He impinged on my breakfast reading this morning. Listening to his speech I almost thought I was back as Minister for science.
I welcome this opportunity to debate further the matter of Antarctica. For a number of hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Islington, North, the issue is fresh in the mind of the House. The Antarctic Bill successfully passed all its stages on 16 June and received Royal Assent only two weeks ago, on 15 July. It was an important milestone in the United Kingdom's commitment to the Antarctic. It was only the third time since 1967 that Parliament has enacted legislation for Antarctica.
The Act makes the necessary changes to UK law to enable us to ratify the 1991 environmental protocol to the Antarctic treaty. We hope to be in a position to do so by the end of the year, and certainly well before the next Antarctic treaty consultative meeting scheduled for Seoul in May 1995. The Government are currently working actively on the necessary subsidiary legislation.
The protocol cannot enter into force until it is ratified by all 26 consultative parties to the treaty. So far, nine have done so. It is telling that only two of the nine have so far enacted the necessary enabling legislation—legislation akin to the United Kingdom Antarctic Act 1994.
In terms of enacting legislation to implement the protocol, we remain in the vanguard of the treaty parties. That is fitting, for the United Kingdom has been intimately involved with the protocol since the early days of its gestation. Along with Chile, the United Kingdom called in 1989 for the convening of a meeting to negotiate provisions for the comprehensive protection of the Antarctic environment. What was to emerge from those negotiations was the Madrid protocol, a document developed by the United Kingdom and some like-minded countries.
The environmental protocol is the most significant new element of law introduced into the Antarctic treaty system since the adoption of the Antarctic treaty in 1959. It provides the framework for environmental protection, which was lacking in the treaty. It has, in effect, brought the treaty system up to date and negated any calls which might have been made to carry out a review of the treaty.
The protocol was designed specifically with flexibility in mind. It is a relatively simple framework document. It bans mining for 50 years, unless there is a consensus to do otherwise; it contains general environmental principles; it establishes a new institution; the committee for environmental protection and it sets out inspection and emergency contingency procedures.
The detailed nuts and bolts of the protocol are contained in five annexes, which deal with environmental impact assessment, the conservation of flora and fauna, waste disposal and management, the prevention of marine pollution and protected areas. The annexes can be amended by relatively simple procedures to take account of changing environmental needs. That is important.
We are obliged under article 16 of the protocol to negotiate a further annexe, or annexes, on liability for damage. Those negotiations are under way, and the United Kingdom has played a most active role in the meetings to date.
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Clearly, the priority facing the Antarctic treaty parties is the timely entry into force and implementation of the protocol. We will give what encouragement and assistance we can to other parties to ratify soon. I hope that the passage of the Antarctic Act will be one such sign of encouragement.
Implementation rests at both international and national levels. At their 16th meeting in Bonn in 1991, the treaty parties pledged to implement the provisions of the protocol, pending its entry into force, to the greatest extent practical. Individually, many have taken that commitment to heart. Collectively, the parties have, disappointingly, been somewhat slower.
One crucial element to getting the protocol up and running would be the committee for environmental protection—an advisory group to the treaty parties. At the recent treaty meeting in Kyoto, the United Kingdom was to the fore in urging parties to introduce an interim committee to carry out the functions of the committee. We were pleased that the challenge was taken up and a transitional environmental working group will begin work at the next consultative meeting in Seoul. It is a crucial step towards full implementation.
On the national level, the United Kingdom's main Antarctic operator, the British Antarctic Survey, has taken rapid steps to carry out the provisions of the protocol in practice. The BAS has carried out environmental impact assessments of key operations, conducted waste disposal audits, introduced oil spill contingency plans and trained staff to deal with such emergencies and begun a clean-up operation of abandoned British bases in Antarctica.
I must once again accord the Government's thanks to all concerned at the successful adoption of the Antarctic Act. Especially our thanks go to the right hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Mr. Jopling), who sponsored the Bill in this House, and to Viscount Montgomery for sponsoring the Bill in another place.
If the provisions of the protocol are tough, those of the Antarctic Act are equally if not more so. The drafters of the legislation placed considerable emphasis on how best to ensure that United Kingdom nationals in Antarctica and British expeditions to Antarctica comply fully with their obligations under the protocol. That is achieved by a series of tough permitting provisions.
All British expeditions, vessels and ships to Antarctica will require a permit from the Secretary of State. Similarly, British bases in Antarctica will need a permit. Permits will be needed by those undertaking any mineral resource activity and, lastly, permits will be needed to take or interfere with wildlife or enter protected areas.
Overall, the provisions of the Antarctic Act are tough. To ensure that there are no loopholes in the system, we shall be discussing with the dependent territories how to extend the legislation to them. That is particularly important for our territories adjacent to Antarctica—the Falkland Islands and South Georgia—which act as gateway ports to the continent.
I shall take up one point that the hon. Gentleman raised in detail with respect to the fishing zone around South Georgia. The zone is fully consistent with the Antarctic treaty and the Antarctic fisheries convention and has as its sole purpose the more effective implementation of fish conservation measures taken under that convention.
Mr. Corbyn: The Minister said that the Government were in discussion with dependent territories—the

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Falklands and South Georgia—about the operations of the Antarctic Act. Can he be more specific? Does he mean that there are discussions about how they might be implemented, or about whether the Act applies to them in its entirety?
Mr. Davis: If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, he will realise that my briefing is recent. I shall write to him on the detail of the issues he has raised so that we can be absolutely clear.
We have a major opportunity—through, for example, port state jurisdiction—to ensure that vessels or aircraft going to Antarctica from our territories can comply fully with our obligations under the protocol and we shall enforce the measures keenly.
The Antarctic treaty secretariat took up much of the hon. Gentleman's speech. The introduction of a secretariat for the Antarctic treaty would also be of major assistance to the implementation of the environmental protocol.
We have long urged that such a secretariat be set up. Indeed, in the longer term, a secretariat is crucial to the successful operation of the Antarctic treaty system. It is, however, important to stress that the site of the secretariat —I remind the House that we are talking about what would be the most important institution within the Antarctic treaty system—is acceptable to all parties. Treaty parties are active in trying to resolve the matter and we will play an active part. It remains our hope that consensus will be reached before too long.
We still have some work to do to ensure that our domestic legislation is up and running. A number of sections of the Antarctic Act need regulations to be effective and these are now being drafted. They will be laid before the House as soon as possible.
We believe that, through our legislation, we have the ability to ensure that rigorous environmental standards are maintained in Antarctica. We shall do what we can to see that other parties to the treaty do the same.
The hon. Gentleman raised a couple of detailed issues about which I shall have to write to him. I thank him again for giving me the opportunity to make this speech today.
Mr. Corbyn: The Minister has given a full reply to most of what I said, but the synthesis of what I was saying
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is that there is a very strong offer from Argentina to site the Antarctic secretariat in Buenos Aires, and the British Government apparently find it unacceptable. Although the Minister said that there is search for a consensus, he needs to be slightly more forthcoming.
It is not good enough to say that we, as a country, are in the vanguard of the campaign for the protection of the Antarctic and to say that there has to be further discussion to obtain consensus on the siting of the secretariat. As I understand it, the consensus is everybody except Britain. We need a straighter answer from the Government. Are they trying to veto the siting of the secretariat in Argentina and if so why? What are their proposals? The longer the debate goes on, the slower the setting up of a secretariat.
While one welcomes the development of regulations associated with the passage of the Act, surely the operation of the treaty, the protocol and the Act is the important thing —on the ground and in the air. While the British Antarctic Survey is carrying out the provisions of the Act, as passed in this Parliament, other countries are not doing the same. Tour operators are not getting the information and advice that they should be getting and the damage caused to the Antarctic environment by illegal or unqualified tour operators is, in some cases, considerable. Those issues must be resolved—
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. This is a very long intervention and the House knows my views on interventions.
Mr. Davis: I had drawn my remarks to a close, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I shall reply. As I said, I will write to the hon. Gentleman in detail.
Locating the secretariat in Buenos Aires would unbalance the political relationship between the three counter-claimant states. For that reason, we did not suggest that the institution should be housed in the United Kingdom. We would prefer a site in a more neutral state. Within that context, we are making as much effort as possible to resolve the issue as quickly as we can. I will write to the hon. Gentleman with any more details, if he wishes to press the matter further.

European Union
12.20 pm
Mr. Bernard Jenkin: I am most grateful for this opportunity to have a final discussion on this most important topic. It is a great pleasure to welcome my hon. Friend the Minister of State to the Front Bench. He has been translated to the Foreign Office in the recent shuffle. He has had dealings with European matters before, but without saying anything in public, and it is great to see him back.
I noticed during the previous debate that he had already perfected the form of delivery expected from the Foreign Office, and we look forward to hearing more of it. I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend's predecessor, who did much in his short tenure of that office to improve the atmosphere in which European issues are discussed in the House. He did much to develop policy towards the next major intergovernmental conference in 1996.
It is most important to recognise the nature of this debate. We are no longer two sides at loggerheads, pro and anti—indeed, we never were. The Maastricht phase of adversarial discussion of European issues is behind us. We are now in a phase of dynamic and positive argument. Rather as in a Greek drama, we play different roles. My hon. Friend the Minister and his colleagues in Government are heroes, to our role as chorus. We do our best to explain to the audience what is going on as the drama unfolds.
To that end, I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Minister for allowing my hon. Friends the Members for Stafford (Mr. Cash) and for Chingford (Mr. Duncan Smith) to take part in this debate. They will discuss, respectively, aspects of the Commission and the European Court, and I shall devote my comments to the European Parliament. We hope to give my hon. Friend the Minister plenty of time to catch up on his briefs, as he has been in the job for only 12 hours or thereabouts.
Much of our thinking on the future of those institutions has been set out in our pamphlet, "A Conservative Europe: 1994 and beyond", which was published earlier this year. It was based on the principle of support for the Prime Minister's stated position. He wants a
"Europe of sovereign independent nation states".
In his article in The Economist in September last year, he said:
"It is for nations to build Europe, not for Europe to attempt to supersede nations."
That is the basis of the broad consensus that is emerging in the United Kingdom. I notice that even the right hon. Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham) on the Opposition Front Bench, which is empty at present, stated his opposition to a federal Europe and advocated a Europe of nation states.
We need to put flesh on those bones and to confront that position with the reality of the European Community today, which is that no other Governments have a concrete policy towards, or are acting towards, our vision of a Europe of nation states. The Community advocates and upholds an inviolate and ever-widening acquis communau- taire, and institutions that are devoted to promoting their European vision.
The central institutions of the European Community seem remote to most people. It is not simply a matter of attitude, which can be overcome by generating a sense of European esprit. The institutions' multinational nature will
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always stand in the way of improving the Community's democratic legitimacy. A multilingual assembly will always look more like an international conference than a functioning Parliament, and a multilingual and multinational debate will never be seen to have the same relevance as national debates, regardless of the availability of translation services.
As the French, "No" campaigner Mr. Philippe Seguin said before the French referendum:
"Democracy is synonymous with the nation state."
Many people have ambitions for the European Parliament to become supreme in the constitutional and legislative role in a European super-state. It will become the heart of a European super-state, and that is the most dangerous and preposterous of all of the federalist ambitions.
There is no example anywhere in the world of a true Parliament that spans nations, cultures and different languages, that does not also have a tendency towards disintegration, misunderstanding, antagonism and even bloodshed. That is not a vision that I share of the future of Europe.
The European Parliament already demonstrates how out of touch it is. Members of the European Parliament are notorious for their lofty detachment from the everyday lives of the citizens of this country. In the recent elections, the people demonstrated their contempt for the European Parliament and its processes. The turnout was the lowest ever in a European election. It was lower than in 1989, when the turnout was lower than in 1983, and that turnout was lower than in 1979. The election was characterised by reactive voting—voters reacted to national issues. People were not voting consciously for a particular type of Europe, or for certain policies in Europe, but reacting to national concerns.
The only constant theme throughout the European Community was a marked sceptical showing in all member states except Germany, which is always able more overtly to present the European project as a German project to its people.
The European Parliament has no more democratic legitimacy than a district council. Naturally, its credibility thus enhanced, it is entirely predictable that it should choose this moment to assert its authority by vetoing Mr. Jacques Santer—the consensus candidate for the presidency of the Commission.
European parliamentarians want to be treated as a 13th state—the European state—or perhaps not, for as we speak we do not yet have the result of the vote. Perhaps they will realise that their real authority is as thin as the paper on which the treaties are printed.
Earlier this week, however, the European Parliament obstructed the liberalisation of telecommunications in Europe. It is absurd that the principal institution devoted to the integration of Europe should want to stop us talking more freely and cheaply to each other. In truth, the Parliament has become an expensive, ridiculous, undemocratic, power hungry, unaccountable, obstructive encumbrance on the efficient working of the Union. It is a Parliament without a state, and unless Europe becomes a state it must remain so—
Mr. Iain Duncan Smith: A Parliament in a state.
Mr. Jenkin: True enough.
In 1996, we shall need practical proposals on how to reform the working of the Parliament. The role of national

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Parliaments needs to be enhanced, and the European Parliament needs to be smaller, more efficient and primarily devoted to auditing, accounting and reporting. Its potentially obstructive legislative role should be curbed. It should become more accountable to national Parliaments: a counterbalance to the Council of Ministers, which is accountable to national Governments.
I ask my hon. Friend for only one assurance on a subject likely to be on the agenda before 1996. It concerns the method of electing European parliamentarians. In the spirit of subsidiarity I would urge my hon. Friend to give us an assurance that the United Kingdom Parliament will continue to decide how our representatives to the European Parliament are elected. Will he undertake to continue to use the veto against a uniform system of elections?
12.29 pm
Mr. William Cash: This is a much more important debate than the half hour or so allocated to it suggests. At this very moment—as the clock strikes 12.30 pm—the European Parliament is exercising a power conferred on it to decide whether it wishes to veto the appointment of the president of the Commission. We do not yet know the result, but I hope that it will be known in the course of these proceedings.
Mr. Duncan Smith: Is my hon. Friend aware that, in the course of yesterday's rather fraught proceedings in the European Parliament, the British Labour group decided —typically, the meeting was attended by only 16 people —to veto this particular gentleman? The Parliament has now called for a permanent place for a representative of the European Parliament alongside the Heads of Government. There is thus more to the matter than just vetoing an individual; these people are calling for a complete change in the structure of what my hon. Friend is about to discuss.
Mr. Cash: Yes, indeed. It is precisely this usurpation of power, accompanied by an abuse of power, that has characterised what has been done under articles 100A and 180A. These are the powers conferred by Governments on the European Parliament and the Commission—yet the latter always deny it. The Commission claims that a decentralising process is under way, yet anyone with any competence knows that the reverse is true. Certainly no one in Europe believes it. The Commission continually refers to an increase in the powers that are needed. The word "integration" by definition means more centralisation. Those are exactly the views of Mr. Santer, who apparently agrees with Mr. Dehaene. Europe will continue along these lines until we say no to the increases in the powers being demanded by Europe.
The intergovernmental conference is to be preceded by the so-called reflection group, set up at the Corfu summit. According to the Minister's predecessor at the Foreign Office, informal papers are already being put about to deal with the issue. The fact is that the IGC offers the Government a golden opportunity to put into effect what they say they want from time to time but never seem to implement—decreasing the powers of the European Commission.
In April 1990 I published a Bow Group pamphlet which I circulated to the House of Commons and in which I argued that we should reduce the powers of the Commission to those of the secretariat, at the same time increasing the scrutiny process both in our national
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Parliament and in the Parliaments of the rest of Europe. The pamphlet was written when we had a different Prime Minister. Four years later, we are no further forward with these ideas—although only yesterday I heard another former Foreign Office Minister of State propounding my idea as if it were one of his own.
The necessity to do so is increased because of the amount of power that is being arrogated by the European Commission. The power to initiate legislation can be reduced only by taking the measures that I have described and by allowing the Council of Ministers the power to initiate legislation and to bring the veto back into play, not in the intermediate stages, when one is trying to arrive at an agreement, but when a national Parliament says, "Up with this we will not put." One could then secure the necessary consent.
The key point that completely escapes the Euro establishment, the Foreign Office, other Departments of State and the highest levels of Government, is that one cannot make the changes that are proposed unless one secures the people's consent. People are being taken down a route that, in their view, does not make any sense. That is why they reacted as they did in the European elections recently. They knew that they were being taken for a ride and they did not like it.
Germany was the only country that saw an increase in support for the pursuit of the European policy. That was because Mr. Kohl played the German national card. Elsewhere, results were different. In the United Kingdom, only 36 per cent. of the electorate turned out. Even in Holland, a mere 36 per cent. turned out. In his excellent remarks, my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester, North (Mr. Jenkin) said that we should reduce the European Parliament's powers so that it is more accountable to the people who are supposed to elect it, few as they are. The other key point is that, at the same time, we should ensure that such bureaucracy without responsibility and without accountability is brought to heel.
Mr. Jenkin: I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. The way in which European Standing Committees work is good in part, but we have only one shot at lengthy European proposals. The Government are then allowed to go off, negotiate, decide and conclude matters. We never get a Third Reading or a final look at the final document, and we are never able to express a final opinion on what the Government decide to accept in Brussels. Such accountability is not nearly strong enough, particularly if one considers the huge volume of European legislation with which we are likely to deal once the new Commission is established and starts to implement the Maastricht treaty in full.
Mr. Cash: I agree with every word that my hon. Friend says. I issue a word of friendly advice to my hon. Friend the Minister, who has just taken up his new job. His predecessors have moved in an extremely dangerous zone in relation to the Select Committee on European Legislation. Such a Committee should be replicated throughout the European Community. France and many other member states operate by decree. We have a scrutiny process, but it does no good if Ministers in the Foreign Office or other Departments seek to bypass, in a most outrageous manner, proposals from the European

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Commission. Proposals need to be scrutinised by us, because they will not be properly scrutinised by the European Parliament.
I should like to refer to the matter that is before the European Parliament: the allegedly proposed veto of Mr. Santer by the socialists in the European Parliament. In the past few weeks, we have witnessed an example of comedy —Greek or otherwise—turning into burlesque followed by farce. The way in which the matter has been handled is reprehensible to all hon. Members, as elected representatives of our constituents.
As I said in my comments on the Prime Minister's statement, we were told that we vetoed Mr. Dehaene as the unelected president of the Commission because it appeared that Germany and France were running the European Community, but Mr. Santer is fundamentally no different from Mr. Dehaene, and it was with some wry amusement that I heard him say that he is indistinguishable from Mr. Dehaene.
Mr. Duncan Smith: He is taller.
Mr. Cash: Perhaps he is, but I wonder whether he is fatter.
Mr. Santer may now be vetoed by the European Parliament, which shows that we, through our Government, have given more power to the European institutions than has been warranted. That will be remedied only by taking the steps that I have suggested.
The Minister of State is seeking advice. I hope that his search will be fruitful and that he will give a responsible reply to our points. I strongly urge him to answer a question that I put at the end of my most recent book on the subject, "Europe: The Crunch"—is anyone listening?
It may interest those who read our proceedings in Hansard to know that, despite the timing of the debate, a significant number of my hon. Friends are present to register their interest in the subject. If the Government are prepared to listen, changes will be made with some enthusiasm and co-operation, reflecting the fact that those who last year were regarded as heretics are now, according to general consent, backed forcefully by 70 per cent. of public opinion not only in the United Kingdom but elsewhere in Europe.
If we are to secure the necessary consent, it is equally important for the Euro-elites—the Governments of the European Community—to respond to the views of the Euro-realists and to bear in mind that we carry a potent message: that if they do not listen to us, and I sincerely hope that I can convey this as advice rather than a threat, things will get worse. The powers of the European Commission must be considered with the powers of the other institutions.
Mr. Edward Leigh: Bearing in mind what my hon. Friend said about the need to achieve consent for the European process, does he think that the Euro-sceptics are misnamed, and that they should be called Euro-democrats?
Mr. Cash: That is a superb suggestion. I like to refer to us as Euro-realists, but Euro-democrats is even better.
Mr. Walter Sweeney: Does my hon. Friend read any significance into the fact that not one
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of the Euro-realists, who, based on their voting records last year, might be characterised as Euro-sceptics, was included in the reshuffle yesterday?
Mr. Cash: That has certainly proved that being right does not necessarily lead to one's views being accepted. That is the point that I am trying to make.
Far too much is at stake. We are living in historic times. President Clinton has said that he thinks that Germany should lead Europe and he and his colleagues have said that we should have a single currency. I heard expressed at the very highest level of American diplomatic circles only two days ago the view that we are bound to accept the concept of a single currency, a concept that this Parliament will reject, or should reject.
The matters with which we are dealing extend into the realms of foreign policy, defence and the whole of our Westminster democracy. Some time ago a motion before the House dealt with the power of the Crown. The power of the European Commission has increased, is increasing and ought to be diminished.
12.45 pm
Mr. Nigel Spearing: The hon. Member for Colchester, North (Mr. Jenkin) has taken a dramatic initiative in giving us the opportunity for this debate. We await the result of a vote in another place that is a little further away than the other place to which we usually refer. The hon. Gentleman spoke about the alleged veto. Article 158 of the European Union treaty as amended states:
"The President and the other members of the Commission thus nominated shall be subject as a body to a vote of approval by the European Parliament."
As the other members of the body of the Commission have not, as far as I know, been appointed, any vote in the European Parliament today—which may have already taken place although we do not know the result—would be an opinion. It is within the rights of that Parliament to express an opinion; but, as I understand it, it is not a substantive vote for which article 158 allows.
I suggest to the hon. Member for Colchester, North and to the Minister, who may not wish to comment, because this is all at very short notice, that the fundamental constitution of the European Union/Community will get into a bit of a tangle. While it may be true that any vote being taken at this moment or already taken, whatever the result, is not substantive, it will certainly have influence and people will talk about it.
Any young Parliament that wishes to flex its muscles will use opportunities to show that it has political relevance, although as I say, technically, the vote may just be a reflection of opinion. We have not sufficiently appreciated that the European Parliament, like this Parliament, gained power by increasing its power over legislation, expenditure and administration.
Although I am in favour of European co-operation in an international sense, from the year dot I have regarded the constitution of the European Community as incorporating three institutions of government—the Commission, the Parliament and the Council. They are engaged in what might be called a triangular tug of war and the vote today, whatever its outcome, is part of that contest, which is a political as much as a constitutional contest. If there is to

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be a referee in that triangular tug of war, which might be a new sport, then of course it is the European Commission Court of Justice.
12.48 pm
Mr. Iain Duncan Smith: I welcome my hon. Friend the Minister and I know that he would shortly like to reply to the debate. At last we can listen to him rather than just watch him in his place, as we did throughout the Maastricht process. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester, North (Mr. Jenkin) that it is sad that the Minister's predecessor has moved on, because he did much to articulate many of our concerns.
Today, in line with my other hon. Friends, I want briefly to raise the issue of the European Court of Justice.
Mr. Cash: My hon. Friend may be interested to know that Mr. Santer has been accepted by the European Parliament by a vote of—apparently—260 in favour and 230 against, with a number of abstentions.
Mr. Duncan Smith: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I must admit that it seems rather strange for us to be taken to the brink by a Parliament which is distant and not altogether welcomed, necessarily, by the people in this country, judging by their voting record.
However, I shall continue on the issue of the European Court of Justice. Before Maastricht, that court, which was so critical to the formation and function of the Community, was completely unknown. If we have done one thing, it is to raise its profile. It is my belief and that of many others that that court is at the crux of many of the problems in the European Community. It is an innovative and interpretative court, as my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester, North (Mr. Jenkin) said on a recent ten-minute Bill.
As I have said before, as has been published in an excellent pamphlet, "Game, Set and Match?", which contains selected speeches from the Maastricht process, which I recommend to my hon. Friend the Minister, and as others have said since, the court was based on the Conseil d'Etat. It is worth looking at the structure of the Conseil d'Etat in France, because one then fully understands how close it is to the European Court of Justice in seeing its role in an almost executive style of Government. For example, in its annual report, the Conseil d'Etat in France publishes all the legislative reforms which it deems necessary and acts, at the same time, as the legal adviser and supreme administrative court to the French Government.
If we are in any doubt about the ethos of the European Court of Justice, I shall cite two quotations from the pamphlet to which I referred. Some time ago, Advocate-General Lagrange said:
"the Court must not be defeated by obscurities or contradictions in the wording of the text for the real meaning can be deduced from the context or the spirit of the text."
At a later stage, Advocate-General Roemer said:
"the European treaties are nothing but a partial implementation of a grand general programme, dominated by the idea of a complete integration of the European States."
That, of course, sets the whole scene for the European Court of Justice and the way in which it has proceeded and been made competent by constant reference to the spirit of the treaty and has filled gaps with teleological interpretation.
I raise that point with my hon. Friend as he starts his new duties as Minister today, so that he may take a long look at the European Court of Justice. The Minister's
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predecessor but one, our right hon. Friend the Member for Watford (Mr. Garel-Jones), tried to reassure us during the debates on Maastricht that the court was no longer centralising, but decentralising, even though I had put forward a number of cases to demonstrate that it had been centralising over a very long period.
My hon. Friend the Member for Colchester, North, in his ten-minute Bill the other day, demonstrated that the then Minister's view was hope over experience because my hon. Friend quoted a number of cases since the Maastricht debates that have demonstrated quite the opposite and which are infecting our own court process. The European Court of Justice is critical, as it demonstrates the ratchet effect which has been talked of so often.
To end my speech, I should like to make some simple recommendations, which my hon. Friend may think about, and not necessarily answer today, but put in the round for 1996. First, we should recommend that new rules for the European Court of Justice's mandating of all deliberations be held in public and, rather than the unitary judgments now given, dissenting opinion should be expressed simultaneously with the majority position and the opinions of the advocates-general. Secondly, we should bring forward legislation that specifies that new justices and advocates-general have at least three years' direct judicial experience on the bench in national courts, thus barring political appointees and legal professionals without judicial experience from appointment.
Thirdly, we should establish the practice of seconding European Community judges from national legal systems and, fourthly, we should require a new procedure in the ECJ to allow the misuse of treaty powers to be rectified immediately, similar to an action for a declaration in the British courts.
I urge my hon. Friend to please take note that the ECJ is the most dangerous and the most centralising institution in the Community. I hope that we look to do something in 1996 to repair that damage.
12.54 pm
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr. David Davis): With the leave of the House, I shall reply to the debate.
It is with some sense of deja vu that I stand at the Dispatch Box. I think that I have been free and easy in accepting oral interventions and speeches. That is partly because this might be a sort of celebration of our reunion on these matters.
We have had many robust discussions in the past, although not publicly, on issues relating to the institutional structures to which we are directing our attention this afternoon. I hope and trust that we shall continue to have robust discussions while adopting a constructive and creative attitude to the development of our ideas as we run into 1996.
With that theme, I thank hon. Members who have paid proper credit to my predecessor for the excellent job that he did over the past year in developing our policy and presenting it with his ministerial colleagues. I refer, of course, to my hon. Friend the Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory). Perhaps the best thing that I could hope for would be successfully to continue with my hon. Friend's successful work.
I note, too, that the Opposition Front Bench is completely empty. It strikes me that its emptiness is a

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suitable comment on their policies on these matters. I do not expect that that policy will change as a result of the other election that took place in an interesting representative institution elsewhere at the same time today as the election of the new leader of the Labour party.
The future institutional structure of the European Union is of fundamental importance to the United Kingdom. Our approach to institutional issues in Europe is guided by the same principles that determine our approach to all European Union matters. We believe that the Union must be competitive, not least so that it can cope with the huge challenge that is posed by unemployment throughout the 12 member states.
The European Union must be open. It must be open for trade and open to other European countries that can meet the criteria for joining it. It must be flexible and capable of adapting to the needs of member states while maintaining the core disciplines that are essential to the successful functioning of the Union as a whole.
Part of the flexibility is the operation of the so-called pillar structure. There are clear advantages in acting together, when possible, in foreign and security policy as well as in justice and home affairs matters. That can be done successfully only on an intergovernmental basis and under a different set of rules from those that apply to Community business.
Vigorous application of subsidiarity is vital. We must act at European Community level only when it is absolutely necessary to do so.
The institutions of the European Union must be able to cope with the requirements that are placed on them by the demanding agenda that is before us. At the centre of the institutional structure will remain the Council of Ministers, which is formed by the representatives of the elected Governments of the member states.
The Council will continue to work under the direction of the European Council of Heads of Government, which provides general political guidelines for the Union as a whole.
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The Commission and the European Court of Justice have a crucial role in ensuring compliance with treaties and with Community legislation. The European Parliament has significant powers to hold the Commission to account, and we know that it has exercised them in one respect today. The Parliament has a growing role in shaping legislation. The Court of Auditors monitors and investigates all expenditure.
I have given the briefest of overviews of our general approach to the institutional structure of the Union. I shall now respond in a more detailed fashion to more specific issues.
The Commission has an important role to play as the Union's executive, as its referee—we have heard about the three-way tug of war—and as the initiator of legislation. We disagree from time to time with the Commission, but we must remember that it often acts in our interests by enforcing competition and single market rules.
The recent case of landing rights at Orly airport is a good example of that. Another good example is the BSE case. The Commission needs powers to police effectively. For our part, we need to ensure that the Commission is efficient, accountable and remains committed to the goals set by successive European Councils.
With regard to the European Court of Justice, a strong rule of law in the Community is essential to British interests. We abide by our Community obligations and we must be sure that other member states are equally scrupulous. We therefore fully support the ECJ in its judicial role.
However, I recognise concerns that have been expressed in the House about certain decisions taken by the ECJ and the way in which it—
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Geoffrey Lofthouse): Order. We now come to the debate on the route of the channel tunnel through Barking. I call the hon. Member for Barking (Ms Hodge).

Channel Tunnel Rail Link (Barking)
1 pm
Ms Margaret Hodge: As I have been a Member of the House for such a short time, it is a privilege to be given the opportunity to speak in one of the last Adjournment debates of this Session on a topic which is of such paramount importance to my constituents. The focus of politics today for all sides of the House may be concentrated elsewhere rather than here, but I am delighted to have the opportunity to raise on the Floor of the House issues which mean so much to the people of Barking.
We are about to rise for a long recess when some of the worries and stresses of our lives will temporarily be lifted from our shoulders. There is no such respite for the people of Barking. My constituents face a summer of anxiety, worry, uncertainty and anger with the threat of the channel tunnel rail link route coming through the heart of our town, destroying the homes and lives of hundreds of families in my constituency.
Let me start by making it clear that I and my constituents, including those who are most directly affected by the tunnel, support the plans to establish a high-speed rail link connecting the channel tunnel to all parts of Britain. We are not displaying selfish nimbyism. We are saying that another solution must, and can, be found for Barking which does not destroy the homes, the environment and the lives of so many of the people in my constituency.
Nowhere along the entire route of the channel tunnel rail link in Britain are so many people so adversely affected by the Government's plans. Frankly, I find the plans grotesque. I believe that they represent a betrayal of trust on the Government's part: trust which the ordinary people place in the Government, and trust built on the belief that the Government will act in the interests of all the people throughout the country.
If my constituency had been a Tory marginal, with the greatest respect, Mr. Deputy Speaker, you would not have seen the proposals even reach the light of day. However, the people of Barking do not vote Tory. One of the reasons I was returned with such an historic majority for Labour, and the reason why the Conservative vote collapsed in Barking, was that the people of Barking feel that they have been abandoned by the Government. They are very angry.
What is good enough for the people of Kent must be good enough for the people of Barking. My constituents are ordinary working people. They are not Tory voters and they do not live in a marginal Tory seat. Nor are they like the articulate media pack and legal brigade in Islington where I live which lobbied the Government. However, the people of Kent and the people of Islington wrought concessions to minimise the environmental impact of the channel tunnel rail link. All I am asking for is fair and equal treatment for the people of Barking.
Mr. Andrew Rowe (Mid-Kent): Will the hon. Lady give way?
Ms Hodge: In a moment.
It is the Government's duty to govern in the interests of all our citizens and it is on that ground that I ask for a fair deal in respect of the proposals for my constituency.
Mr. Rowe: Will the hon. Lady give way now?
Ms Hodge: I am anxious to finish my speech in 15 minutes. This is my only opportunity to raise the matter on behalf of my constituents.
Let me deal with the impact of the proposal. The Minister for Transport in London has visited the area. He will know that more than 1,000 homes are directly or indirectly affected by the proposals. In answer to a recent parliamentary question, the Government admitted that the boundaries of as many as 321 homes in Barking. are directly adjacent to the rail track. That is more than anywhere in Kent or in Islington.
The proposal tears the heart out of Barking. It destroys the basis of the community in that part of London. It also destroys the Government's own stated objective of urban regeneration and renewal. Take the heart out of Barking and we will destroy the integrity of the community.
The homes in which those people live are not luxurious suburban residences, they are homes that were built for war heroes. In answer to a parliamentary question, the Government admitted that the distance from the back wall of the nearest house to the track is 2.5 m. I am not terribly good at estimating distances, but I guess that that is closer than the distance between the Minister and myself.
Trains currently pass the area at about 47 mph. Fast trains will go through at 185 mph. That will make an enormous difference. From calculations that I have had to make because the Government have been unable to provide me with proper estimates, at peak times there will be one train every three minutes going past the homes of people in Barking, at a distance of 2.5 m from their kitchens. We must add to that the problem of freight traffic. Again, the Government's estimates suggest that, instead of the 6.1 million tonnes of freight traffic in 1993, 16.4 million tonnes of freight will be carried on that track. In 2013, there will be a further adverse impact on the quality of the lives of people living close to the track.
We have had some noise measurements. I believe that they are inadequate. Even the measurements that have been published to date show—again I make a comparison with Islington, the borough of which I used to be the leader —in Islington 45 properties were affected by noise in excess of 85 DBA. In Barking, 325 properties will be so affected, yet the Government have no proposals on the table to ameliorate the quality of life. There are also vibration levels.
The only solution that has been suggested so far is that there should be 10 ft high walls between the rail track and peoples' homes. Again I stress the 2.5 m distance. A 10 ft high wall will do absolutely nothing for people if they have to look out at a mass of coircrete. It will be claustrophobic. That is not the environmental protection that we should enjoy today.
Who will be affected? Some are tenants, some are owner-occupiers. The tenants have no escape; they are locked into the homes in which they have lived happily for many years. Owner-occupiers are finding their properties blighted. At the peak of the market, their homes were worth £80,000 to £85,000. We all accept that, to some extent, the market has collapsed, but people cannot sell their homes in that area of Barking. One could probably sell for £20,000 to £25,000, but nobody would give a mortgage on such a home, so we are talking about cash purchasers, most of whom are private landlords who would turn the area into bedsit territory, which again would impact on the sense of community which is so important in that part of London.

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I shall tell hon. Members about three people who have written to me; I have received hundreds of letters. One is a woman who moved into her house when she was just married. She now has three children and she is locked into a two-bedroom house which she cannot sell. The children are now reaching their teens. Another constituent is an old-age pensioner who has an asbestos-related disease and who wants to move, but he cannot sell to move somewhere which would give him the chance to live longer.
The third constituent is a woman whose mother lived down the road. When her mother died, she wanted to sell her mother's house so that she could afford to put her children through higher education. Nobody will buy the house and, as a result, her children are being prevented from achieving their aspiration of an opportunity in life.
I wish to deal with a couple of other issues which are of concern to me. We have found that Union Rail is not giving us the information that we require, and we are living in uncertainty and secrecy. My constituents have a right to know. On the issue of freight, there is no clear information.
In November 1993, a representative from Union Rail assured residents of Scruttons Farm that there were no plans for a railhead at Ripple lane. I now understand that Union Rail may have plans to build two railheads in Renwick road and Scruttons, and the Secretary of State has announced that there will be a freight link to Ripple lane.
There has been an intensification of use, and nobody knows why. Union Rail and British Rail have said that they are maintaining and upgrading the line, but I believe that they are preparing for the intensification of use by freight trains and avoiding paying compensation to residents in the area.
On compensation levels, there is no clear information for residents on the level of compensation, and it is unclear how many residents will get compensation. The levels of compensation have yet to be set, and they will be set by private sector companies which will have control of building the channel tunnel rail link. This is a matter of public policy, which ought to be determined by the Government. The veil of secrecy and uncertainty is unacceptable, and I ask Ministers to ensure that, in the interests of my constituents, we bring an end to it.
Is there an alternative? In Kent and Islington, work was done on other options, and in Kent, five options were worked out to see which was the most feasible. Why cannot we have some investigation of other options in Barking? There has been unanimous support within the community for the channel tunnel rail link to be tunnelled under Barking Reach. That is an empty piece of land, and the project would not impact on the future plans for the reach or on the current residents. Other options were also available for consideration.
Some £2.7 billion is being spent on the project, and all I am asking is that we should investigate. If it costs another £50 million or £60 million, it will be a worthwhile investment for the long-term benefit which it would bring to my community. I am concerned that there is has not been a proper estimate of costs and that other costs have not been taken into consideration.
For example, I do not know—perhaps the Minister might enlighten me—what the cost of the disruption to the current freight and passenger services will be during the construction of services on Tilbury dock.
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I ask the Minister to assure me today on three matters. First, he will recognise that there is a case to answer to which he and the new Ministers should now give consideration. Secondly, he should cost all the other options so that at least we can be objective about providing the channel tunnel rail link which we all want. Thirdly, he should leave a mechanism in place in the Bill which gives us time for consultation and for consideration. That may mean widening the limits of deviation around the proposed route so that the alternative under Barking Reach can be considered.
If Jo Richardson had not been so ill during her latter years, I am sure that we would never have got to the position today where the interests of thousands of Barking residents are being ignored, while the interests of other people along the route from Islington down to Kent have been acknowledged. I am asking the Minister to pause for thought, and to give us one more opportunity to provide a sensible and lasting solution. We all want the rail link, but not at the price of destroying a community, destroying people's homes, destroying their environment and destroying their future.
1.14 pm
Mr. Stephen Timms: In supporting the points made so eloquently by my hon. Friend the Member for Barking (Ms Hodge) on behalf of her constituents, I draw attention to a further issue related to the link as it passes through Barking and the rest of east London. It is clear that significant environmental problems will be caused by the link, whatever the ultimate route. If, as I hope, my hon. Friend is successful in persuading the Government to choose an alternative route through Barking, problems will arise with tunnelling. My hon. Friend the Member for Newham, South (Mr. Spearing) recently convened a meeting with Union Rail to discuss those problems.
In 1991, the then Secretary of State, announcing the east London route for the link told the House of Commons:
"the line will be built through east London, where the prospect is welcomed for the economic regeneration that it will bring."— [Official Report, 14 October 1991; Vol. 196, c. 26.]
Local authorities in east London in Barking, Dagenham, Newham to the west and Havering to the east are imaginative and enterprising. The Secretary of State was right: the authorities spotted from the outset the potential for the link to provide the stimulus for economic regeneration in the area that we so desperately need.
Yet it is plain as a pikestaff that there can be no regeneration in east London from the link if there is no international station in east London. Stratford now appears to be the only place where there is still a possibility of an international station in east London. It is now the only way to unlock the potential that the Government rightly identified for economic regeneration in Barking and the rest of east London.
I understand that an announcement is imminent on the matter and that the new ministerial team at the Department of Transport wants to consider the matter before making the announcement. That is entirely proper. I understand that. I urge the Minister to ensure that the announcement contains a commitment to the long box at Stratford so that the Stratford station remains a possibility. Beyond that, there should also be a commitment to the international

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station as a integral part of the scheme so that the regeneration benefits that Barking and east London need, and that the Government have promised, will materialise.
1.17 pm
The Minister for Transport in London (Mr. Steve Norris): With the leave of the House, I congratulate the hon. Member for Barking (Ms Hodge) on securing this debate. It is about what she and I know to be an extremely important issue, not least for those of her constituents whom she has properly represented today. As she knows, during the past few months and indeed, the past few years, Ministers in the Department of Transport have received a number of representations from local residents, the borough and members of the borough council. Councillor George Brooker has a been frequent and assiduous correspondent on the issue and has met Ministers on several occasions.
I shall merely leave on the record the points made by the hon. Member for Newham, North-East (Mr. Timms) about the choice of intermediate stations. My job is merely to confirm that the choice of stations will be made shortly and, more importantly, in time for inclusion in the Bill and to confirm, as he probably knows, that it is assumed that the Bill will be ready for November and, subject to the parliamentary timetable, will be brought before the House.
I shall savour and enjoy for some months to come the description by the hon. Member for Barking of her erstwhile constituents in Islington as the articulate media pack, the chattering classes' chattering class, as we always knew them to be in Islington. It would be churlish of me to suggest that the hon. Lady was to some degree the doyenne of such a pack, but none the less, whither Islington these days and welcome to Barking and a more realistic view of life than occasionally is held in the borough of Islington.
Without descending into political point scoring, as I do not see it as a Labour-Tory issue, it is clear to me, having looked at a great many major schemes over the years in the Department, that not the slightest influence is brought to bear by the excellent officials, whose job it is to do the basic work, on the voting preference of those who live adjacent to schemes, whether they are Tory grandees living alongside road schemes that happened to impinge on the fields at the bottom of their rolling acres or the residents of the hon. Lady's constituency; that simply is not a material consideration. On reflection, the hon. Lady might not want to pursue that point, as it would be a reflection on the integrity of officials, which, with her long experience of local government, she would not like to cast.
The hon. Lady was good at defining the problem. There was some excellent hyperbole and my emotions were drawn and strung but, sadly, she said very little about any proposed solution.
In the next few minutes I shall give a little of the background to where we are on the rail link and try to address in a practical way what the actual solutions are. The hon. Lady made it clear—I am grateful to her for doing so—that she is not opposed to the idea of a second rail link and neither are the hon. Members for Newham, South (Mr. Spearing) and Newham, North-East (Mr. Timms). We are discussing the practical way of delivering that rail link in that part of London, and what the hon. Lady said about the impact of the link and the difficulty there will always be
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—which no doubt she has faced in other fields because of her long career in local government—in trying to find the right way through.
As she will recall, the decision was taken in 1991 for the rail link to run from Kent to King's Cross St. Pancras via the so-called easterly approach and, as the hon. Member for Newham, North-east said, to assist in the regeneration and development of the east Thames corridor.
Since the announcement of the general easterly approach, we have done a great deal of work and I would like to express my appreciation of the work of Union Rail over the past few years. I can appreciate that, in the nature of things, there will inevitably be some conflict between those who represent affected residents and Union Rail as, in effect, the proposer of the scheme. My experience has been that Union Rail is an excellent and professional organisation. If the hon. Lady believes that information is being withheld and kept secret by Union Rail in a manner that she believes to be unreasonable, I shall certainly ask Union Rail at the highest level to consider carefully the specific points she raised and I shall endeavour to let her have the information.
Of course there are considerations of commercial confidentiality, but in general it is a matter for the whole community to resolve and issues of secrecy do not arise.
Union Rail submitted its report in March 1993 which proposed a route for consultation which ran through Barking largely on the surface. There was then a period of further work and consultation. The results of that work were reported in Union Rail's October 1993 report. The Government decisions on the route were announced by my right hon. Friend the then Secretary of State on 24 January this year.
Part of the conclusions reached then included the route of the rail link through Barking. The March 1993 route ran from the portal of the London tunnel to the south-east of the existing Barking station—the route that the rail link would run on the surface along the existing London-Tilbury and Southend railway corridor through Barking. As the hon. Lady says, I and other Ministers at the Department have visited that part of the route on a number of occasions.
The hon. Lady mentioned a tunnel option for Barking as one of the proposals, and then spoke about Barking region. I shall try to relate the two.
Following the announcement of the March 1993 route, and during the subsequent consultations, Union Rail worked up a tunnel option, which was included in the October 1993 report. The option would have extended the London tunnel by about 1.8 km, along a similar alignment to the surface route, thus moving the portal further east to the Ripple area. It was estimated that the tunnel would cost £40 million and the figure could be reduced to between £20 million and £25 million if only one tunnel boring machine were used. That would also introduce a six-month delay in the programme, however.
We were not convinced that the tunnel was the right answer, especially as the scope for further mitigation of the route remained. Yes, it would be in the shape of different types of noise barriers. Also, the modest extension to the property purchase and compensation policy announced at the same time, which would allow hardship terms to be offered for cases in which a home qualified for noise insulation under the draft noise insulation regulations, should help in some cases.

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I am clear that the construction of the rail link through that area of Barking will need to be carried out in a sympathetic manner and in line with an agreed code of construction practice, to minimise the inconvenience to the local community.
Since then, my right hon. Friend, the former Minister for Public Transport, the Member for Kettering (Mr. Freeman), has met Councillor Brooker, who further pressed for the Barking tunnel option, which was included in the October 1993 report. We made it clear to George Brooker that, after carefully considering the points made, the January 1994 decision stood.
Incidentally, on the hon. Lady's proposal, some of the residents of Essex road and other roads in the area said that they were rather worried about the tunnel option there because, in the short term, it would lead to the existing line carrying increased freight traffic, for which they would receive no compensation, and there would be a possibility of vibration from the tunnel underneath their homes.
I am afraid that at that stage there were already widely divergent views, not only on the benefits of the existing option, but on the merits of the 1993 proposal—the tunnel.
On the question of the tunnel under Barking Reach, which was more in line with the original Ove Arup route, as the hon. Lady was told in answer to a parliamentary question this week, we have not received detailed advice on the feasibility or the additional cost of routing the rail link under Barking Reach, and I shall give some of the reasons. That sort of tunnel would affect the flagship east Thames corridor development site there, which is very near to the council's heart.
Ms Hodge indicated dissent.
Mr. Norris: If the hon. Lady disagrees with that proposition, in all seriousness, I invite her—together with the council, if necessary—to let me have at an early stage chapter and verse on precisely why she has come to that conclusion. The route would also pass very near Ford,
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Barking power station, the A13 extension and so forth. The proposition might require a new route to be devised for the rail link all the way to Stratford, which is very important as it would affect many more properties than the present route, which closely follows the existing railway corridor.
I was looking at the route that that option would take and the hon. Lady is more than welcome to see me, or whichever one of my hon. or right hon. Friends is given direct responsibility for the project, to find out precisely what the impact would be. I have always found the hon. Lady to be a reasonable soul and I cannot believe that she would not care about the many additional properties that would be affected by the Barking Reach option. It is utterly symptomatic of her party's pathetic approach to public expenditure that she brushes the cost aside. She says, "Fifty to £80 million—well if it has to be, it has to be, after all, it is a jolly big sum of money, isn't it?"
I suppose that that is one basis on which to monitor public accounting, but it is not one that I commend to her. If she is late for the coronation that is taking place elsewhere in our great city, or if she has not been invited, I am sure that it will not be long before she manages to re-ingratiate herself with the chattering-class leadership of her party, when she might discuss with those who have some responsibility for finance in her party whether they are prepared to be quite so cavalier with public finances as she suggested.
We shall take forward this project sensibly and responsibly. As far as possible, and within the limits imposed by those who propose such major constructions, we shall consider any serious proposals that may achieve what the local community wants, with the least possible disruption.
Neither the hon. Lady nor I had the opportunity to touch on some of the subsidiary issues today, but I want to make it clear that this need not be the end of the discussion. I know that the new Secretary of State will be more than willing to listen to what she has to say, and so will I. As far as practicable, we shall reflect on whether any of her additional points can be accommodated.

National and Local Government
1.30 pm
Mr. Andrew Rowe (Mid-Kent): To have two Ministers on the Front Bench for a debate of this sort is a work of remarkable supererogation. It gives me the opportunity to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, West (Mr. Jones) on arriving in his new position.
This is an ambitious subject for a short debate, so it will inevitably be perfunctory. The House has become increasingly interested lately in its own proceedings. That is good, because Parliament is losing its power as the world becomes a global village. One result of that is the emergence of the European Union. Despite the Canutes who again this morning have been trying to brush sand in the direction of the incoming tide, it is clear that power will continue to move gradually away from this place and towards Europe.
So far, our reaction has been petulant and ineffective. Mostly, decisions in the European Union are made by the Executive, and are reported, sooner or later or not at all, to this House. The European Parliament has just been given new powers. I hope that it will use them particularly to call the European Executive to account. There is fraud, there is incompetence and there is the sheer difficulty of enforcing regulations; there is plenty for the European Parliament to do. Will it do it? What will our response be?
No serious attempt has yet been made to forge and maintain links between Members of Parliament here and Members of the European Parliament. We are now entitled to one free visit a year to the EU—an act of astonishing generosity. No attempt has been made to provide video conferencing facilities between ourselves and Members of the European Parliament. As far as I can ascertain, there are virtually no serious institutional joint committees—yet increasingly our fate and that of the European Pat-Lament are interwoven.
We are always told that there are problems of time; as a matter of fact, we could have much less to do here, and we could make much better use of Members' time. The worst feature of the British system of government is the Government's under-use of Back Benchers of all parties. Why cannot we work out a timetable to allow Back Benchers to play a serious role in Europe on the United Kingdom's behalf? It seems to me that the United Kingdom system demands more and more legislation about less and less.
The Chamber is a good forum for debating issues of public concern, but it does so far too rarely. We could debate issues such as euthanasia or genetic engineering, but we leave far too little time for that, even though these topics command considerable interest among the British public.
We also face a new menace: the media. There is a new threat of harassment—of scrutiny beyond the norm—if any Member of Parliament raises his head above the parapet in an attempt to check the media. Of course, it is all done in the name of accountability to the public, but it is actually counter-productive. What the public need are Members of Parliament who are increasingly willing to defend their constituents and institutions from the overmighty media. A new balance must be struck.
The word "privilege" has been misunderstood; it should enable Members of Parliament, as the hon. Member for Newham, South (Mr. Spearing) said last night, to serve
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the public free from restrictions. In a way, one of the most sinister developments has been the advance of Berlusconi. I have nothing against him—I do not know him at all—but for someone to make their way to Parliament basically on the back of owning a massive media empire and a couple of football teams is dangerous, and we need to consider it more closely.
The Government's reaction to the erosion of powers is to interfere ever more closely in the lower tiers of government. In principle, the Government claim that they have delegated powers to national health service trusts, schools, housing associations and other organisations. If they had the courage of their convictions, how good that would be. Their nerve, however, has failed. At every turn, they have imposed constraints on their creatures.
NHS trusts still operate in the shadow of Whitley. They cannot hire and fire consultants without incurring ludicrous costs. They are severely limited in making their own arrangements on contracts. Schools, having been set national curriculum targets, are still not free to choose how to reach them. Even hours of teaching are prescribed, despite recent research that shows there is no correlation between the hours spent teaching and the results achieved. The methods of teaching are frequently prescribed and one of the results is that professionals feel deskilled.
An enormous amount of power has been removed from local authorities. Planning appeals are so widespread that they emasculate planning committees. The capacity to raise income locally has been circumscribed. The right to be significantly different from neighbouring authorities has, effectively, been largely undermined. The public pressure for uniform standards has been allowed to triumph over the encouragement of local democracy.
That brings me to the local government review, a policy development that I deeply regret. If ever there was a case of putting the cart before the horse, this is it. Instead of asking what local government in the 21st century is for, we have leapt in to change the machinery of local government. No serious debate has been held on the balance of power between central and local government. No attempt has been made to link local government with the health service, despite the shift from institutions for care towards care in the community.
No serious attempt has been made to recognise one of the biggest changes in the United Kingdom: the growth in the sophistication and education of the public. The effect of that change is everywhere, yet instead of making coherent attempts to harness it for more responsible local government, we have let it be funnelled almost exclusively into pressure groups and single-issue lobbies which are increasingly distorting national policies.
Like everywhere else, Kent is faced with recommendations from the local government commission which resemble the mule of antiquity, which it was said had neither pride of ancestry nor hope of posterity. We must choose between structures that set citizen against citizen, councillor against councillor, and that split the county's Members of Parliament down the middle.
It was a great pity that we were excluded from even considering a county council with scaled-down powers. I have been proud of Kent's reputation for good policing, good fire services and innovative social services. I fervently hope that the changes that will be forced on us will improve them, but I wonder if they will.
Given the size and homogeneity of the Medway towns, it is difficult to argue that they should not become a unitary

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authority, and people there are keen that that should be so, except the Gillingham Liberals, who apparently have infuriated the Rochester upon Medway Liberals by stuffing leaflets through their doors condemning them for supporting unitary status.
So vicious has the fraternal dispute become that I gather that the right hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown) is to be asked to parachute in and to sort it out, if he can spare the time from sorting out Bosnia. We know that the Liberals say one thing in the south-west and another in the south-east, but to have two Liberal groups saying different things within a mile of each other adds a new piquancy to their inability to get their act together.
I should be glad if my hon. Friend the Minister could reassure us that, whatever the final outcome of the Local Government Commission deliberations, Kent will be able to continue to command European Union resources as part of a Euro-region and will not be jeopardised by a reduction of its present size. We have had a considerable inflow of valuable money from the European Union as we have developed as part of a Euro-region, and I would be deeply sorry if any change in the local government set-up put that very valuable development—a development that is indispensable as we are the home of the British end of the channel tunnel—at risk.
There is yet another dimension to this constitutional upheaval. The hon. Member who is just about to be proclaimed the leader of the Labour party has promised a Scottish Parliament within a year of any Labour election victory. That is a very interesting promise. How will that Parliament be formed? What will it do? What will be its impact on this Parliament? The hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Wallace) suggested the other night that Stormont provided a precedent, whereby hon. Members from Northern Ireland were allowed to vote on English matters and in Northern Ireland took part in exclusively Northern Ireland debates. Northern Ireland constituencies were quite large, whereas Scottish ones are generally considerably smaller than those in the rest of the United Kingdom.
I would find any such arrangement for Scotland wholly unacceptable and I do not believe that I would be the only English Member of Parliament to hold that view. If Scottish Members of Parliament were to sit in a Scottish Parliament to debate Scotland's health, education, social services, roads or any other subject and I could have no vote, I certainly would not accept their voting on England's health, education, roads or similar subjects.
If Scottish Members of Parliament are not to take part in a Scottish Parliament, what will it do and who will sit in it? It does not sound like a particularly useful undertaking and I look forward to hearing the hon. Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Blair) explain to the House exactly what this promise, on which so many Scottish hopes have been built, will mean in practice.
I believe that the time has come for Madam Speaker to set up a commission to examine the future of this ancient Parliament and to equip it for the 21st century. We are muddling along in this place. It seems that there is some value in having a change in sitting hours.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Geoffrey Lofthouse): Order. I wonder whether the hon. Member thinks that the Minister who will reply is responsible for all the subjects that he is covering.
Mr. Rowe: I tabled the subject of my debate; I did not choose the Minister to reply to it. I have enormous confidence in my hon. Friend the Minister, whose knowledge of the constitution is extraordinary. I certainly imagine that he will share some of my anxieties about the future of this ancient Parliament, which, unless we address the matter in a coherent, sensible and radical way, will simply become a talking shop with little effect on the Executive.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: I appreciate that this is an Adjournment debate, but the hon. Gentleman is not being fair to the Minister. I hope that he will bear that in mind.
Mr. Rowe: Of course I accept the rebuke, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I think that I am entitled to say that part of my unease about this country's constitutional arrangements, whether national or local, stems from the aggrandisement of the Executive at the expense of Parliament or local authorities. We cannot expect the Government themselves to address that. It is up to the House to pay considerable attention to these matters because we were sent here to represent constituents to whom the shape and form of local government is of little concern. Every person who comes to my surgery with a grievance is mistaken about which layer of government is responsible for it.
The Government hope that, as a result of the deliberations of the Local Government Commission, the number of tiers will be reduced and people will get it right. If the Government believe that they are fooling themselves, because people who come to my surgery do not know whether Customs and Excise, the Inland Revenue, the Department of Social Security or housing or roads departments belong to a particular tier of local government.
Instead of looking all the time to the machinery of local or central government, we should increasingly address the definition of the role of government in a world in which money, information, armaments and everything else can move across frontiers at the drop of a hat.
The telegram totally changed the nature of diplomacy. Lord Stratford de Redcliffe was the last British ambassador to declare war on behalf of Her Britannic Majesty. After that, information was sent home by telegram for discussion by the Foreign Secretary. The communications revolution, the increase in education and sophistication among the population and the way in which decisions are taken around the world have completely altered the nature of the role and authority of government. The relationships between local and central government or between this Parliament and the European Parliament should be urgently addressed.
1.47 pm
The Minister for Local Government and Planning (Mr. David Curry): I am grateful to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for your attempts to make sure that I answered only to my brief, but perhaps I will take the liberty of being slightly discursive. My hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Kent (Mr. Rowe) spoke about the European Union and the European Parliament. I spent 10 years in that institution so I can reflect to some degree on its competencies in relation to the House.

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It is a mistake to believe that power and responsibility exist in defined chunks, and that an absence of power and responsibility here necessarily adds to them somewhere else. I have never believed in the thesis that giving more power to the European Parliament necessarily means that an equivalent amount of responsibility is removed from this or another national Parliament.
There is a real problem in the European Union over accountability for decisions. It depends on the Council and the areas of competence. I have always believed that the way to address that may lie much more in trying to elaborate some of the party links between Members at Westminster and Members of the European Parliament and to appeal via the party network rather than the parliamentary network. But with the best will in the world, the different working methods of the two establishments make that difficult.
For example, some continental Parliaments do not meet on Mondays. There are group meetings at which members of Government, Members of Parliament and Members of the country's European Parliament and perhaps senior party members discuss policy. That forms the network, the link. It is not a parliamentary link, it is a political link, which appears to be effective. One never knows, there may be things that we can learn from continental practice, in the same way as certain activities in the European Parliament, such as Question Time, have been adopted from the traditional practices effective in the House.
So, if I do not believe that there is a fixed body of competence, which must be divided like a cake between our Parliament and the European Union or its institutions, for the same reason I do not believe that that concept is true in our relationship with local government. I shall not follow my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Kent in pursuit of the health service or other such areas—I sure that he understands why—but I shall look at the areas for which my Department is competent. The urban development corporations, for example, were established to deliver a particular result: to try to assemble land in areas where there was a tradition of decay and dereliction, to try to do that efficiently and to accelerate some of the set planning procedures. Of course, local representatives sit on those bodies.
In my hon. Friend's county of Kent, on the border with the east Thames corridor, we are not adopting that technique, but we are deliberately working through the local authorities. We have brought them together in those terms, for we are shortly hoping to launch our planning strategy for the east Thames corridor, and we have deliberately sought to use the expertise and the competence of traditional, existing institutions. Up to now, touch wood, it is working very efficiently. I hope that we will manage, despite the particularity of the various councils and their obvious competing interests in attracting investment, to succeed in achieving a strategic concept in that whole area.
My hon. Friend mentioned planning and the appeals. It is important to acknowledge the role of the planning function and especially the local plan. We have a regional planning strategy, which is one of the unsung success stories of planning. People find that strategy very helpful. Again, local authorities play the central role in the conferences which bring that decision-making together and that has laid down the broad strategic thrust for developments. Indeed, the south-east regional guide was published relatively recently. We shall boil it down to a local plan.
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If the local authorities settle down and produce their local plan, it enables them to give a clear idea of what sort of development they find acceptable. That gives us runway lights. We never say exactly what will happen, but the plan's purpose is to set a framework—the runway lights —within which decisions can be made so that there is a great certainty among everybody concerned about the development which may or may not take place. The elaboration of the plan gives local government—if it uses it sensibly in the manner intended—significant competence in that area.
I shall turn to the role of local government. If we had been holding this debate 120 or 130 years ago, we would have been talking about the creation of modern local government as a task of getting to grips with the unbridled and uncontrolled urbanisation which was the hallmark of the industrial revolution. We would have been talking about providing basic services such as sewerage, water, lights and effective sanitation. Those tasks brought into being Chamberlain's Birmingham and the municipal authorities in Leeds and Manchester; the great urban areas. The task of the Victorian era was the provision of basic amenities to cope with the vast industrial urban society.
If we then look at the immediate post second world period, we saw the creation of a welfare state in Britain and a significant number of competences, which had been the responsibility of local government, were brought into the national domain, especially the health service. It was a transfer of power, if one wants to put it in those terms, but it was a move to serve a different set of circumstances and conditions. Today, especially in the urban areas, we must tackle the reverse side of the coin to the challenges of the mid-Victorian era. We must deal with the debris of the industrial society. Regeneration tasks have been left in our inner cities, and for those we need a different sort of new local authority.
Therefore, I see a change in definition, but the powers must be relevant to the particular tasks that we wish local authorities to carry out at any time.
I believe that local authorities now have three essential roles. The first role is that of regulator, and there is no point in ignoring it. Local government acts under a statutory responsibility as a regulator in many different areas. Trading standards officers are a county responsibility while environmental health officers are a district responsibility. I have never been clear why those two distinct corps should have a separate constitutional arrangement. However, that is an example of regulatory functions that are carried out by local government. It is clear that that role will remain.
The second role is that of a service commissioner—I use the term deliberately—because local government organises the delivery of a range of services, whether the individual services are delivered directly or through the competitive process. The way in which they are delivered is a matter of detail. The fact is that local government has a statutory responsibility for the delivery of a certain number of services.
Local government's third role is that of a regenerator. I realise that that term is not appropriate to all authorities. It is one that will be more relevant in urban areas than in some rural areas. Local government has a role to work more and more with other agencies, with the private sector, with organisations such as training and enterprise councils, chambers of commerce and educational establishments, so as to bring together the resources of the community to tackle specific problems. It is close on the back of the city

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challenge programme, the single regeneration budget and the inter-regional offices, which are all designed to try to harness local resources and bring them to bear on a particular task. I think that the three functions that I have outlined will be at the heart of local government as it is now developing.
In many respects there has been a significant culture change in local government. We must be careful to ensure that where changes have taken place they can be said to be permanent, but where there has been a sea change, it must be recognised. We look to establishing the role of local government in the light of the changes that may have taken place.
Programmes such as city challenge and working in partnership are established gospels throughout large areas of local government. That may not have been the position five or 10 years ago. Some of the policies that we have pursued, such as competitive tendering and the city challenge process, were introduced during a period of budgetary constraints. However, they have contributed to the change in attitude within local government.
My hon. Friend asked specifically whether any local government reorganisation in Kent would affect its eligibility for European funds. The answer is no. I can give him that assurance without equivocation.
My hon. Friend talked about changes being forced. I wish to make it clear that the changes will not be forced. The Government do not have a secret agenda. We believe that it is legitimate to test the structures of local government against the functions that I have been describing to ascertain which is the most effective
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mechanism for the delivery of services. If the answer is that unitary councils—one-stop shops—deliver services most effectively and are effective in service delivery, financial terms and identity terms, they will constitute the route that recommends itself. If such councils do not appear to be the obvious formula, if the benefits are not clear, or if the arguments point the other way, there is nothing that states that some preordained plan will determine a particular outcome in any particular area.
I ask my hon. Friend to ensure that when the debate takes place in Kent it is focused on the heart and nature of local government. Let it be a sensible and mature debate on how services are best delivered. Perhaps we can have rather less of the propaganda battle, which in some areas has disfigured debate in the heart of local government.
When the report comes to my Department, we shall examine it in the circumstances that I have outlined. As my hon. Friend knows, the procedure has been set up, but at present the recommendations are with the commission. It will have to test them against opinion in Kent and then make a final recommendation. That may not be the same as the original recommendation. The recommendation will come to us and the Government have options. We can accept it, reject it or send it back for modification. We are not bound by a recommendation that the commission may put forward except in general terms. We must conduct our own investigations and consultations, which will include my hon. Friend and other Members representing Kent constituencies. I believe that they know best what Kent wants and needs. They will be at the heart of our consultation. I give my hon. Friend that assurance. I hope that he will find that I have made a useful contribution to the debate.

Drug Use (Royal Commission)
2 pm
Mr. Paul Flynn: It is an unexpected pleasure to see a bearded Minister on the Government Front Bench today. At last there is a breakthrough for the fraternity of bearded Members who, under a previous Government, were treated like untouchable parliamentary lepers who were doomed to stay on the Back Benches.
It is a genuine and unexpected pleasure to see the new Minister, the Parliamentary-Under Secretary of State for the Environment, the hon. Member for Hertfordshire, West (Mr. Jones) in his place. I hope that he will inspire others. One Minister actually shaved his beard off under the reign of Madam Thatcher in order to achieve a place on the Front Bench. I hope that he will take courage and now regrow it in these new days of liberty and freedom.
I am less enthusiastic about the response that I will receive from the Minister of State, Home Office, the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Maclean), who has held that office for rather a long time. The new Minister may carry on his intelligent and searching character from his Select Committee work, but I fear that we may be due for a response from the Minister of State, who has been long in office, which is predictable, based on a history of what has happened in this field over several years and is then followed by a period of self-congratulation for the Government.
Drugs are a massive problem. They have damaged and destroyed the lives of millions of our people, but so many of our decisions in respect of drugs are framed on ignorance and prejudice. Perhaps the simplest way to measure the problem is to consider the number of deaths from drugs.
According to official Government figures, no one has died from an overdose of cannabis. In the past year, 94 people died from taking heroin. Two hundred people died as a result of taking paracetamol, which is probably in every home in the land. Two thousand people died from using other drugs. Twenty-five thousand people died from using alcohol and 110,000 from using tobacco. However, as a nation, we spend £100 million encouraging our children to use tobacco and we arrested 40,000 people last year for using cannabis.
When we consider the history of drugs, it is strange to contemplate how we have reached our present position. In the last century, our grandmothers and their grandmothers could buy any drugs, not just in chemists but in local shops. Queen Victoria was a regular cannabis user. She used it every month of her adult life. Cannabis was used by many of the famous names in poetry and literature. They could buy a range of drugs, including heroin, cocaine and cannabis from their corner shops.
In 1928, we decided to criminalise cannabis and certain other drugs. We did that for an entirely irrational reason. The man in charge of a lunatic asylum in Alexandria, Egypt, claimed that all the inmates took cannabis. He assumed from that that the use of cannabis led to insanity. However, he did not point out that almost the entire population of Alexandria—men, women and children—also used cannabis, but they were not insane.
One argument in favour of banning cannabis which was made in the House a short while ago, and about which I was curious, is that it destroys brain cells. I decided to discover upon what that claim was based. Only one
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experiment has suggested that cannabis destroys brain cells. In that experiment, monkeys were forced to smoke 63 very intensely strong cannabis cigarettes under such conditions that they drew into their lungs only cannabis smoke and insufficient oxygen. They suffered from carbon monoxide poisoning and that destroyed their brain cells.
Cannabis has been used widely throughout the world. It is claimed that 60 million Americans have used it and that there are 1 million regular users in Britain. I hope that we can have some new thinking about our current laws. Our laws are not only not stopping the increase in the use of drugs, but are actually fuelling that increase. We are repeating the mistakes that have been made in every country in the world.
I challenge the Minister to tell me of any country that has followed our line—that is, cracking down on cannabis and hard drugs—and where that has not led to the certain result of increased use and increased crime. America is the prime example. It had a very strong case against alcohol —one can always make a case on alcohol abuse much more than one can in respect of other drugs. Alcohol is an extremely damaging drug. Understandably, in 1919, it was decided to prohibit it. The result was a doubling of the use of alcohol. Even worse than that, four times as many people died from alcohol abuse, possibly because they were taking too much of it in unhealthy circumstances or because bad alcohol was on the market. Thirteen years later, when the use of alcohol was decriminalised, the situation reverted.
America inherited an empire of criminals who had grown rich in well-organised crime. We are now doing exactly the same in this country with illegal drugs. We know of the increase in crime. At least 40 per cent. of homes in our constituencies are broken into, and people commit petty crime in pursuit of goods to sell for money to fuel their habits or drug addictions. If we carry on like that, we will end up as they have in America. In America in 1962, just 4 per cent. of people between 18 and 25 were cannabis users. After the United States Government spending $8 billion a year, using their army, navy, air force, coastguard and diplomacy in the war on drugs—they call it a war on drugs—more than 70 per cent. of young Americans in that age group regularly use soft drugs. It is counter-productive.
I do not want an increase in cannabis use. I want cannabis to be regarded as boring and uninteresting. At the moment, it is regarded by young people as a challenge —something with which they can kick against other generations. One argument is that decriminalising the use of cannabis will lead more people to use it and will encourage them to go on to hard drugs. I heard one cannabis user answer that argument by saying, "My father has drunk five pints of bitter every Saturday night for the past 40 years and he has never gone on to methylated spirits." We know that groups of people will go on to abuse any drug, but there is a great gulf between those with personality weaknesses who go on to total hard drug abuse.
The great danger now is that with our young people experimenting with drugs—a third of them do, whatever we say and whatever we urge—they enter the world of illegality and mix with the pushers and the people who make money out of drugs. The likelihood is that they will be tempted, either by subterfuge or because they are under the influence of another drug, to go on to hard drugs. If we

623
take them out of that market, there will be a chance that they carry out their experiments and then put the drug aside as something of no interest.
Let us consider countries that have adopted that course. I am sure that the Minister read two reports this year, one by a left-wing think tank and the other by a right-wing think tank. They came from very different perspectives, but they reached the same conclusion—that the only way to cut crime and drug use is by decriminalising soft drugs. The worst figure on drug abuse is from America. In America, 1.5 million children are on amphetamines because they suffer from attention deprivation. It is tragic that people abuse a drug in such a way for no purpose. All drugs are damaging. Some benefit us, but they are all damaging in the long run.
Germany recently decriminalised cannabis for personal use. Italy and Holland have already done so. The head of Interpol strongly urges it. There are many such voices in America. The Health Minister in Portugal is urging decriminalisation. Police, judges and magistrates are urging that course. I am not suggesting that we follow Holland, which has gone from a black market to a white market. I am not suggesting that we should have drugs of any sort freely on sale. Drugs should certainly still be controlled.
If we look at that course, I believe we will see that it is the only one which we can take to undercut the market. The main reason why there has been an increase in drug use is not because drugs are enjoyable or that people are inherently wicked. The engine driving the increase in drug use here and in every corner of the world is profit. One would expect the Government to understand market forces.
If someone has a drug habit, the best way to pay for it is to persuade his pals to take up that drug habit. If someone is an addict of a hard drug, it may cost £500 a week to fund his habit. The only ways in which that can be paid for is by going into crime, prostitution or drug trading. In Bristol, local police said that it required £500 to feed a habit, and a person may have to steal something like £2,000 to £3,000 worth of camcorders and videos. The crime rate goes on rising.
There are examples in places such as Widnes where courageous doctors have taken a different path. In Widnes, the black market in hard drugs was virtually wiped out by treating the addicts as patients, because that is what they are—they are sick. If a drug is prescribed in a clean and hygienic way, the addict can take it without the fear of arrest. The drug will not be taken in sordid surroundings, and the addict does not have to share needles, thus lessening the chance of getting AIDS.
If the drug is taken in reasonable surroundings, there is a better chance of the person's building up self-esteem and going on a course of rehabilitation that may get him off the habit. It is working in Widnes and in other parts of the world. One remarkable example of what happened in that town is that, with the market in hard and soft drugs having collapsed, one of the local chain stores was willing to part with £2,000 to fund a drug conference. The hard-headed reason why it did that was because shop-lifting in the shop served by the patients of a doctor involved in treating addicts dropped to one twelfth of what it had been before.
We are in a society that is riddled with drugs, and we are having terrible problems. I wish to say something in the
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short period I have remaining about medicinal drugs, because that is another terrible story. One may imagine that there are a huge number of hard drug addicts, but there are 400,000 addicts of medicinal drugs. Those people have gone along in good faith to their doctors for treatment. I do not blame the doctors, but I very much blame the pushers in the drug companies who make money out of those drugs.
We had a terrible period in this country when benzodiazepines were prescribed like smarties to people who found that they developed a life-long addiction. We already prescribe such drugs on the national health service, and we should also look at a drug which causes twice as many deaths as heroin each year—paracetemol. The Minister should look the next time he goes to a chemist or in his medicine cupboard at the warning for that drug. One needs to take very few of them before it is a fatal dose, and that drug occurs in 50 different guises in some very popular drugs.
It is a killer on a massive scale. If 200 people died in an accident in this city, there would be a major inquiry and we would be very worried. But that is the number who die every year from paracetamol, and the total who die from either accidental or deliberate overdoses of prescribed drugs is 2,000 a year.
We must decide whether the drugs that we take are necessary, and that strikes at the core of our relationship with drugs and at the problems in our society. I believe that we must hit at the drug trade by hitting at the drug market. The last thing which is required is the line that the Government have taken. In order to get some spurious transitory popularity, they posture as hard men who will crack down on the drug trade. What they did was to produce a proposal—I believe it is now a law—to multiply the fine for possession of cannabis fivefold. That was denounced not merely by the people who take drugs or people involved in drugs but by the magistrates, the police and everyone. They all said that it was a daft idea.
If anyone were foolish enough to impose such a fine, it would simply mean that the user of the drug had to commit more crime to pay the fine. The police throughout the country virtually do not fine or arrest anyone for possession of cannabis for personal use. That is the line taken by my police authority and many others. The police are turning against the law and not enforcing it. Only in certain areas are people arrested for use of cannabis. The Government increased the fine to make a vacuous political point.
I wish that the Government would look anew at the whole range of this massive problem. I wish that they would look at our relationship with drugs. We are a society which has become deeply dependent on drugs. We expect that there should be an answer for every sorrow that we feel, every bereavement, every pain and every moment of boredom. We reach for the box of pills and expect an answer there. We have forgotten that it is inevitable in the human condition that we suffer pain, boredom and bereavement. All we do by taking drugs is postpone that pain, often at terrible cost.
I urge the Government to take action now to set up a royal commission that can consider drug use in the great detail that is necessary and, in the end, liberate millions of our people from drug dependency.
2.16 pm
The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. David Maclean): Let me first pay the hon. Member for Newport, West (Mr. Flynn) the compliment of saying that I know that he takes considerable interest in drug issues. It is a pity that he has not got himself better briefed on the facts of the case. Although we may differ in our approach to tackling the drugs problem, he and the rest of the House will agree when I say that drug misuse is one of the most serious problems which face our society. However, I must say, in all honesty, that some of the sentiments that the hon. Gentleman expressed were absolute tosh. I shall come to them in a moment.
The drugs problem has many different facets, each of which has to be tackled in its own way. First, drug misuse is a serious health problem. Addiction can have dangerous physical effects. Drug-taking can, and all too often does, lead to death. We have a responsibility to current and future generations of young people to try to change their attitude to behaviour which can have such devastating physical consequences.
Secondly, drugs are a serious social problem. Beyond the individual's physical pain and misery are the social costs, the destruction of an individual's ability to cope with ordinary life, the destruction of any relationships they might have, the destruction of families, who cannot understand it when one of their members becomes addicted, and the destruction of whole communities and neighbourhoods by drug dealers and their evil trade.
Thirdly, drugs are a crime problem. Any strategy to tackle drug misuse must give priority to reducing the misery that drug-related crime inflicts on us all. We know that the hon. Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Blair) has estimated that drug addiction costs this country £2 billion a year in property crime. That is half the recorded value of all stolen property. Few, if any, experts are convinced by that extraordinary estimate and neither am I.
The calculation is based on premises that do not stand up to close examination. The potential cost of £87,600 per heroin addict per year was based on high black market costs of heroin and high daily doses. Not all heroin addicts consume heroin daily, for a variety of reasons including lack of availability, personal disinclination and being either in treatment or in custody. It was further assumed that the whole of their addiction was financed solely from committing crimes and acquiring goods that were then sold and that the stolen goods were sold at only a third of their value.
Funding for drug addiction comes from many other sources. That formula makes no provision for addicts' legitimate sources of income such as benefits and earnings, or from the proceeds of prostitution, begging or the sale of drugs. Such generalised calculations need to be approached with caution. Nor is there any point in wasting time speculating on the exact relationship of drug-related crime, when our policies are designed to bear down on all crime, including drug abuse, and to ensure that our strategies embrace prevention as well as enforcement activity.
I have said enough to underline the seriousness of the drug problem and the threat that it poses to our society. The very seriousness of the problem has tempted some, including the hon. Member for Newport, West, to suggest that the legalisation or decriminalisation of drugs may be the answer.
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Some find the idea of legalisation more attractive when confined to removing the controls on cannabis and other so-called soft drugs. There is still scientific debate about the long-term effects of cannabis misuse. There is evidence that cannabis can give rise to acute and transient mental disturbance and drug-induced psychotic illness. Whatever the longer-term effects might be, in the short term cannabis makes users light-headed and unable to concentrate, and any measures that would increase the availability of cannabis would have serious consequences for the health and safety of the public, particularly if cannabis were used by those working in the transport industry or operating industrial machines.
There is also emerging evidence that a much stronger strain of cannabis known by the street term "skunk" is becoming increasingly available on the illicit market. Even less is known about the long-term effects of that drug, which some estimate is five times more potent.
It is also totally misleading to compare the incidence of cannabis-related health problems with those of alcohol and tobacco. The latter substances are not controlled by law and consequentially are used far more widely. To say that alcohol or tobacco kill many more people than drugs do, and therefore we should legalise drugs, is a cock-eyed way of looking at the problem.
If a scientist came along today and said that he had invented a new product called tobacco or alcohol, would it be legalised? It is impossible to look at the historical development of alcohol and tobacco and reach the conclusion that they should be banned today. That is not a possible or sensible route to take, but it is nonsense to say that, as we now have drugs such as cannabis, which are apparently less evil than the destructive effect of tobacco, we should legalise them to put them on the same statutory basis. Why should we risk adding to the nation's health problems by legalising cannabis?
Any relaxation in current laws could have much wider consequences than is often imagined. There is evidence that misusers of drugs such as heroin or cocaine also misuse a wide variety of drugs, including cannabis. Removing the controls on any drugs in Britain would therefore make it a prime attraction for a wide spectrum of drug takers, and traffickers would be quick to move in to meet the demands on other drugs. The most recent report of the International Narcotics Control Board suggested that international drug traffickers target countries with weak laws and controls.
I had a briefing from experienced officers in a police force who recently visited Jamaica to look at the controls on crack. They said that a reggae song on the local radio in downtown Kingston was urging dealers to go to Britain. The encouragement to come to London was the suggestion that
"The police don't bang, the courts don't hang and the sentence ain't tang".
The police certainly do not "bang" and our courts do not hang, but we have some very long sentences for drug dealing, and London ought not to be an attractive place for international drug dealers.
International drug dealers will certainly move to the place where they think that they can get away with dealing. If this country signalled that it was going to drop controls on some drugs, for misguided reasons, we would be perceived as a soft touch. That would be disastrous for all drug use.
Mr. Flynn: The reason that we are a soft touch is that dealers can make more profit here because cannabis is illegal. The use of cannabis has dropped in countries where it is legal. For example, in Holland it has dropped from 6 to 2 per cent. When alcohol was decriminalised in America, its use dropped because criminals could not make a profit. Does not the Minister understand that simple point?
Mr. Maclean: I am glad that some members of the Labour party are trying to learn the economics of the market, but the hon. Gentleman has got it wrong. If he thinks that simply legalising drugs would somehow lower the price, that we would then have a free market and that criminal activity would cease, that is pie in the sky.
Our drug barons and dealers want to be in control, as we have seen. There would be intense competition among the drug barons and dealers to control the supply and maximise their profits. If the price dropped and more kids were encouraged into drug taking and drug use, it would be an appalling price for society to pay, simply because of some cock-eyed theory that it might be economically interesting to legalise drugs as it might pull the rug out from under the international drug market. No country in the world has come to that conclusion.
When some economists get together at seminars, they find it interesting to speculate on what the effect would be if countries legalised drugs. That would be a terribly dangerous experiment to conduct because millions of our people would become hooked on drugs. Not only that; I am convinced that it would not work.
If we legalised drugs, the drugs dealers and barons would not go away, saying, "That's us out of business. We can get the drugs at any local chemist, so there's no more market." Of course not; they will want to control the market in legalised drugs, and will resort to their usual violence to do so.
Mr. Flynn: What about Holland?
Mr. Maclean: I shall come to Germany and Holland —that was the point at which I thought that the hon. Gentleman was talking tosh. He suggested that everyone in the world—all academics, Governments, scientists, police and magistrates—thought that legalisation was a good idea. That is absolute nonsense. One has, of course, heard of some scientists somewhere—no doubt practising for a PhD—who have produced such theories, but I challenge the hon. Gentleman to name any Government in the
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western world, or any police force in this country, who believe that legalising drugs would help in the fight against drugs—either on the enforcement side or by persuading kids to come off drugs.
A recent meeting of the United Nations Commission on Narcotic Drugs adopted a resolution that urged Governments not to derogate from full implementation of the international drug control treaties. As a party to the 1961 convention, the United Kingdom is required to adopt measures to prevent the misuse of, and illicit traffic in, controlled drugs. We would therefore be in breach of the convention if we took unilateral measures to legalise controlled drugs. Even delegates meeting at the United Nations—whom I suspect of having trendy opinions at times—concluded that it would be suicidal to drop controls against drugs and that, among other reasons, is good enough for me.
The hon. Gentleman pointed with approval to the approach that the Dutch and Germans have adopted towards the possession of cannabis. Everything is not always as it seems with his sweeping generalisations. The Dutch Minister of Justice announced at the United Nations in October that his country's so-called coffee-shop policy, whereby cannabis dealing and use are tolerated at certain outlets, is to be reviewed because of a sharp increase in the availability of the drug.
In Germany, the ruling by the constitutional court that possession of small quantities of cannabis for personal use should not, in certain circumstances, be prosecuted attracted some notice. I fear, however, that the hon. Gentleman would be misleading himself and others if he suggested that that amounted to a significant move in the direction of legalisation. The Federal Government have made it clear that the ruling contains nothing new, while the Health Minister described it as "hopelessly wrongly interpreted". The Federal Government have also stressed that the existing law enables prosecuting authorities in the courts not to impose a sentence in minor cases of possession for occasional personal use when there is no danger to third parties, but possession of cannabis remains illegal.
The members of the European Community are united in the fight against drug misuse. At the Corfu European Council last month, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister—
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Geoffrey Lofthouse): Order.

Daw Aung San Suu Kyi
2.30 pm
Mr. Jim Lester: I apologise to my right hon. Friend the Minister who has to reply to this debate. I had no idea that he was in Hong Kong when I applied for it. I understand that he landed at 5 o'clock this morning, only to find that he had to answer this debate. Still, I know that he shares many of our concerns about Burma, and I am sure that he will rise to the occasion.
I thought it vital, before we finished for the summer, that the House paid its respects to the courage of Daw Aung San Suu Kyi, who has now completed five years under house arrest in Rangoon and who, for many Burmese all over the world and in Burma, has kept alive the hope of a return to democratic government in Burma.
I also record the fact that 2,064 Members of Parliament from 32 countries, including 200 of our colleagues here, signed a letter to the Secretary-General of the United Nations, pointing out to him that Daw Aung San Suu Kyi won a landslide victory in May 1990, winning 392 of 485 seats—despite the fact that she was by then under house arrest. Since then, about 1,550 opponents of the Government, many of them elected to Parliament in that election, have been arrested or put in prison. The human rights abuses by the Burmese regime have been well catalogued.
The fact that several colleagues are present in the Chamber for this Adjournment debate is a tribute to their concern. Our letter to Boutros Boutros-Ghali was designed to reiterate what we have always understood to be the position of the international community; it called for the immediate and unconditional release of Daw Aung San Suu Kyi and all political prisoners, with guarantees of their complete freedom and swift implementation of a transition to civilian rule, as mandated by the election of May 1990.
On 20 July five years ago, 11 lorries full of troops came to San Suu Kyi's house. The troops cut off the telephones and excluded her from all contact with any but her immediate family. Some comparison can be made with the suffering of Nelson Mandela and his immense contribution to change in South Africa while being imprisoned for so long. Mandela at least went through some form of legal process—however much we might disagree with it—before being sent to Robbin Island; whereas San Suu Kyi has never stood trial or been given any justification by the illegal regime for the fact that she has been detained.
We know from her conversation with Congressman Richardson—the only person from the western world who has had a chance to see her in the past five years—that Daw Aung San Suu Kyi remains in touch with events in Burma and the world, and that she is still ready, in the same spirit of peace and tranquillity as she has shown ever since becoming involved in Burmese politics, to discuss the way forward.
The regime has, step by step, extended its original powers and sought, with the passage of time, to claim legitimacy, despite the overwhelming rejection of the people of Burma. San Suu Kyi still reaches out towards it to find a way in which to allay its fears and to negotiate and discuss the way forward for the Burmese people, who fear, of all things, the abuse of all normal standards of human rights.
I received a letter from Mr. Sein Win, the Prime
630
Minister of the national coalition Government of the Union of Burma, who asked me to express to the House, on behalf of the Burmese people, their gratitude
"to you and to other members of the House of Commons. Without such well-meaning concern about the human rights situation in Burma by United Kingdom and the others in the international community, the people of Burma would long have lost their hopes to be free and democratic and the brute force of the SLORC would have prevailed over justice."
Many people in all parts of the world feel concern about the lack of progress towards a solution.
I wanted to ask my right hon. Friend the Minister whether the Government remain resolute in their original policy. In some circles, there is concern that the promotion of British week for the second year in Rangoon could give the impression that the time that has elapsed since the election has dulled the edge of our concerns. We know how difficult it is to apply direct pressure on the regime. We know how it is cushioned within the Association of South-East Asian Nations community from the direct concerns that many of us feel.
Will my right hon. Friend give an impression of how we feel about dealing with our Asian and, in particular, our Commonwealth colleagues who are members of ASEAN in terms of constructive engagement with the regime? From the comments of previous Ministers who attended ASEAN meetings, I know how strongly they presented our views. We know that Mr. Baker, the previous US Secretary of State put forward the United States view in a forthright manner at the ASEAN meeting that he attended. This coming week, however, the ASEAN meeting has invited the illegal Burmese regime to attend its opening dinner and closing ceremony.
Constructive engagement can work, but many of us are concerned that it seeks to give authenticity to the illegal State Law and Order Restoration Council regime before the convention succeeds. We are concerned that we may give the impression that, by allowing time to elapse, the regime will accepted by the ASEAN community and more widely. We deeply believe that that would be contrary to natural justice and to the way in which elected colleagues to Parliament should be treated.
I ask my right hon. Friend whether the resolve of the Government, unlike that of Daw Aung San Suu Kyi, is weakening. Many of us believe that we should not accept dual standards of human rights. There is no such thing as oriental human rights and human rights for the rest. There is one standard of human rights which should be accepted under the United Nations mandate.
We do not believe that one should accept dual standards of democratic rights. Many of us believe that the 1990 elections were organised in such a way that it was amazing that the military regime were overwhelmingly rejected. Having gone through that process and having had international observers at the last minute to examine it, it is an abomination in terms of democratic systems to reject the result and to hold Daw Aung San Suu Kyi in captivity for this considerable period.
I point out to my right hon. Friend the Minister that trade is not all. Under the system in Burma, the military are involved in many companies and organisations, making it almost impossible to trade without indirectly supporting the illegal military regime.
Concern has been expressed about the status of refugees in Thailand. The various tribes—the Keren, the Mons, the Chins, the Shan—are under pressure to negotiate with SLORC an end to the civil war. We know that Thailand is

631
exerting pressure on them to enter negotiations. We are concerned that the status of the refugee, which is absolute in United Nations rules, is being threatened. People can be returned to Burma to face not necessarily trial but being convicted and imprisoned simply for being out of the country.
The processes of the convention should require comment from those outside. The processes have dragged on for a considerable time. Many of the original people called to see whether the convention was an acceptable way of enshrining the military in the future Government of Burma have not attended since because they recognise that it is designed to produce only one result. A convention cannot be designed to produce only one result when a population of 48 million people are seeking only a decent Government. Without Aung San Suu Kyi, whose captivity I began with, remaining there, at great personal cost to herself and her family, the flame of democracy will dim.
I believe that, ultimately, good always triumphs over evil and that Aung San Suu Kyi's time is still to come. I shall finish by quoting her own words:
"It is man's vision of civilised humanity which leads him to dare and suffer to build societies free from want and fear. Concepts such as truth, justice and compassion cannot be dismissed as trite when these are often the only bulwarks which stand against ruthless power."
2.42 pm
Ms Glenda Jackson: I thank the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Lester), on behalf of myself and my constituents, some of whom are committed members of the Burma action group, for raising the plight of Madam Aung San Suu Kyi in the Chamber. I know that they will be deeply grateful.
As the hon. Member for Broxtowe said, Aung San Suu Kyi yesterday began her fifth illegal year of house arrest —the fifth illegal year because SLORC has changed the existing law and extended the legal period that someone can be kept without charge or trial under house arrest.
Perhaps more important, Aung San Suu Kyi has highlighted the continuing failure of SLORC to meet even the most basic requirements of the international community's definition of what constitutes human rights. Recent newspaper reports have stated that small children are being dragooned and forced to walk ahead of troops to detonate land mines on the road. That is just one example of what the regime is doing in Burma.
Once again, I heartily endorse everything that the hon. Member for Broxtowe said and thank him on behalf of myself and my constituents.
2.43 pm
Mr. Iain Duncan Smith: With the leave of the House, I should like to add a few comments, aware fully that my right hon. Friend the Minister is ready to answer the debate.
Just over a year ago, I initiated an Adjournment debate on the same subject. This debate has served as a timely reminder that I was then on my feet, asking my right hon. Friend the Minister why the international community should tolerate such an abuse of civil rights.
Aung San Suu Kyi's only crime is to have been elected. Before she could take up her position, she was incarcerated. When I first spoke about this issue, she had
632
been incarcerated for four years, but she has now been under house arrest for five years. That is utterly intolerable, not simply because I presume to believe that she would be an excellent leader of her country—none of us has any idea about that and the matter is academic—but because she has a right to demonstrate whether she would be just that.
It is all too easy for hon. Members to take for granted the fact that we can speak about many subjects without thinking what it would be like to have restrictions placed on us that would prevent us from airing the views that our constituents wish us to air on their behalf. On this ghastly anniversary, I ask my hon. Friend the Minister to do all that is possible, although there is not a great amount that he can do, to persuade the other ASEAN countries not to embark on some form of slow recognition of the ghastly regime in Burma.
The State Law and Order Restoration Council, the aptly-named SLORC, an emotive terminology, should be outlawed and ultimately forced, as my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Lester) and the hon. Member for Hampstead and Highgate (Ms Jackson) have said, to come to terms with the reality that an elected person waits to take up her position and that she should be allowed to do so as soon as possible.
2.45 pm
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr. Alastair Goodlad): I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Lester) for initiating the debate. I welcome the remarks by the hon. Member for Hampstead and Highgate (Ms Jackson) and those of my hon. Friend the Member for Chingford (Mr. Duncan Smith). They and my hon. Friend the Member for Gedling (Mr. Mitchell), who is in his place, have shown their concern for a long time about Burma and the plight of Daw Aung San Suu Kyi.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe said, it is certainly timely for the House to focus its attention on the plight of Daw Aung San Suu Kyi, the Nobel peace laureate and daughter of the architect of Burmese independence. As my hon. Friend said, yesterday was the fifth anniversary of her detention under house arrest on 20 July 1989 by the ruling military regime in Burma, the State Law and Order Restoration Council, SLORC.
Daw Aung San Suu Kyi's continued detention is but one deplorable example of the arbitrary and brutal nature of SLORC, which assumed power in September 1988 after bloodily crushing pro-democracy demonstrations. Although it claimed initially to be an interim authority, and organised fair and free democratic elections in May 1990, it has steadfastly refused to accept the result of these elections, which gave a substantial majority—nearly 60 per cent. of the vote, and over 80 per cent. of the seats—to the party of Daw Aung San Suu Kyi.
Thanks largely to the tireless efforts of Daw Aung San Suu Kyi herself, as well as her many supporters in the United Kingdom, who were mentioned by the hon. Member for Hampstead and Highgate, the world has not been allowed to forget the fate of the Burmese peoples. Their struggle for freedom, and SLORC's appalling human rights record, remain major issues of international concern, attracting public and parliamentary interest worldwide.
Daw Aung San Suu Kyi's own efforts were acknowledged in 1990, when she was awarded the Sakharov prize, followed one year later by the Nobel peace

633
prize, for her non-violent efforts in support of democracy and human rights. The award of the Nobel peace prize was a particularly fitting tribute to her commitment to the cause of democracy and civil liberties in Burma. It also served as a reminder to SLORC that the world community would neither forget nor ignore the continuing struggle by the Burmese people for their full human rights.
The citation for Daw Aung San Suu Kyi's prize from the Nobel Committee described her contribution as one of the most remarkable examples of civilian courage in Asia in recent decades. She has become an important symbol of the struggle against repression and the desire of the Burmese people for a peaceful transition from a military straitjacket to a democratic system. The majority of the Burmese people continue to regard her as the embodiment of their desire for peace, democracy and freedom.
We remain acutely concerned about Daw Aung San Sui Kyi's situation. We have called repeatedly on the SLORC, in concert with our European Union partners and with other like-minded Governments throughout the world, to commence dialogue with the Burmese opposition to agree to the unconditional release of Daw Aung San Sui Kyi and to allow her to remain freely in Burma in accordance with her wishes. That the SLORC continue to ignore all international calls for her release, including those by the United Nations Secretary-General, is quite unacceptable.
Daw Aung San Suu Kyi was originally detained under the provisions of the 1975 state protection law, as amended in 1991, which states that the maximum period of detention for a person held under that law is five years. But the most recent SLORC interpretation seeks to extend the term, in practice, to six years.
To mark the fifth anniversary of her detention, the European Union issued the following text at the recent session of the United Nations Economic and Social Commission in New York:
"The European Union and the acceding countries Austria, Finland, Sweden and Norway view with great concern the continued detention of Daw Aung San Suu Kyi, the Nobel Peace Prize Laureate, who has been detained under house arrest in Myanmar since 1989, in flagrant contradiction of all principles of justice. July 20, 1994 marks the fifth anniversary of Daw Aung San Suu Kyi's detention. It is unacceptable that there is. still no sign of her release.
On the occasion of the anniversary of Daw Aung San Suu Kyi's detention, the European Union and the acceding countries Austria, Finland, Norway and Sweden call upon the State Law and Order Restoration Council immediately to start serious and meaningful discussions with the representatives of the democratic forces of Myanmar. In the views of the European Union and the acceding countries, Austria, Finland, Norway and Sweden, dialogue with Daw Aung San Suu Kyi would open the way for national reconciliation which would, in turn, enable the SLORC to lift the restrictions imposed on her and allow Daw Aung San Suu Kyi to participate in the political process in Myanraar."
Daw Aung San Suu Kyi is, of course, only one of the many victims of the ruling regime's denial of human rights in Burma. Students, monks and several other members of Burma's opposition movement have all fallen victim to the SLORC's policies. The United Nations special rapporteur on Burma, Professor Yokota of Japan, reported to the United Nations general assembly that SLORC had arrested and tortured many people who had voiced political dissent. He also expressed concern at the numerous reports of disappearances and extra judicial executions. Other human rights violations in Burma include the forced conscription of porters for use in front-line areas and abuses of civilian
634
non-combatants in the war zones. Freedom of expression remains almost non-existent, with all media being subject to heavy and frequently arbitrary censorship.
As the situation has deteriorated, the United Kingdom, with our European Union partners, has taken a leading role at the United Nations general assembly and at the Commission on Human Rights, to gain consensus support for tough resolutions calling for the unconditional release of Daw Aung San Suu Kyi and other political leaders and in denouncing the human rights violations reported by Professor Yokota.
Sir Michael Marshall: My hon. Friend will be aware that among the other political leaders to whom he refers are 37 Members of Parliament. He will be aware also of the visit that I made to Rangoon last month on behalf of the Inter-Parliamentary Union to press the case for their release as well as that of Daw Aung San Suu Kyi.
I wish to add my voice to that of my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Lester). Will my hon. Friend the Minister take the opportunity to assure hon. Members that Her Majesty's Government will give every possible support to visits by parliamentarians to contact those who have been imprisoned in Burma? I think that that would help the process of bringing those in prison some hope and comfort. It would also apply moral pressure for the future.
Mr. Goodlad: I pay tribute to what my hon. Friend did during his recent visit to Burma, in expressing his concern and that of the Inter-Parliamentary Union, along with that of other colleagues, for the detained parliamentarians in Burma. The answer to his question about support for other colleagues following in his footsteps is strongly in the affirmative.
Even in the face of the international concern that I have described, the regime continues its efforts to circumvent the clear expression of the will of the Burmese people. Since 9 January 1993, a national convention has been taking place in Rangoon to draw up a new constitution. We believe that Burma needs a new constitution that incorporates the changes in the political and economic system that the Burmese people have called for since the demonstrations in 1988. It must also provide safeguards for the rights of people belonging to the ethnic minorities, to whom my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe has referred.
However, one of the guidelines, to which the convention has been told that it must adhere, requires the constitution to enshrine a leading role for the military in Burma's politics. According to the rules of the convention, delegates are forbidden to question this, which makes a mockery of the entire process.
My hon. Friend asked about European Union policy on Burma. I think that he is well aware that our official relations with the SLORC have been virtually non-existent since it assumed power. We suspended all EU and national non-humanitarian official aid at that time and, in 1991, imposed an arms embargo in response to SLORC's refusal to honour the results of the 1990 elections. We severed all remaining defence links a year later. We have maintained pressure on SLORC to improve its human rights record, to respect the results of the 1990 elections and to promote political and economic reform.
A recent review of EU policy confirmed that existing pressure should be maintained, but we have also agreed with EU partners that we should be more active in ensuring

635
that SLORC understands that the resumption of normal relations between the EU and Burma is dependent on improvements in Burma's human rights performance and progress towards political liberalisation and national reconciliation. We shall be using SLORC's attendance at the ASEAN meeting next week to ensure that it understands our concerns. The presidency will explain our position to the SLORC Foreign Minister in the margins of the meetings of the Association of South-East Asian Nations.
As for the refugees in Thailand, we have insisted—we will continue to do so—that SLORC should treat ethnic minorities in the same way as the rest of the population. We have said that it should apply human rights equally to them.
Although we are talking of the first meeting between the EU and a member of the ruling military regime since it seized power, it should not be seen as a departure from our existing policy on dealings with SLORC. We have consistently refused to accept the regime as the legitimate representatives of the Burmese peoples. We also continue to believe that it is the duty of the international community to persist in their efforts to persuade SLORC to bring about the transfer of power to the civilian Government elected by the people in 1990. We hope that the increasing dialogue between SLORC and neighbouring Asian countries, as
636
well as western nations, will contribute to that pressure. I concur whole-heartedly with what my hon. Friend said about the universality of human rights.
My hon. Friend mentioned trade links. Trade between Britain and Burma is negligible but increasing. United Kingdom exports for 1993 stood at £19 million and imports were £9 million. There has been an increased interest in the Burmese market. We ensure that British firms are aware of the opportunities in Burma and our policy towards SLORC, but, in line with our European partners, we offer no financial support under ECGD or aid and trade provision.
The British week was consistent with our policy on Burma. There is no obstacle to British companies exploring business opportunities. That is not covered by the European Union embargo on arms sales. That does not derogate from or dull our concern over SLORC.
The continued interest shown in the House reflects the genuine wish of people in Britain to see democracy, freedom and full respect for human rights restored in Burma. We will help to make every possible effort to bring that about. Daw Aung San Suu Kyi once said:
"I'm committed to democracy. Until we get there I go on. Let's hope it won't take a lifetime."
We certainly share that hope, but, for as long as it takes, Daw Aung San Suu Kyi will have the support of the Government and, I believe, of the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at one minute to Three o'clock till Monday 17 October, pursuant to Resolution [20 July].

EMPLOYMENT

  Job Clubs
  Mr. Tony Lloyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many(a) men and (b) women have (i) participated in job clubs each year since the scheme started and (ii) have attended job search seminars both in Great Britain and in each region in each quarter since their inception.

  Miss Widdecombe
  Responsibility for the subject of the question has been delegated to the Employment Service Agency under its chief executive. I have asked him to arrange for a reply to be given.

  Letter from A. G. Johnson to Mr. Tony Lloyd, dated 21 July 1994:

  Table B—Number of attenders in job search seminars from August 1991

  Quarter ending

  Regions

  Total

  NR

  YH

  EM

  LSE

  SW

  OW

  WM

  NW

  SC

  September 1991

  126

  —

  9

  360

  126

  111

  142

  272

  128

  1,274

  December 1991

  675

  987

  1,173

  4,059

  1,409

  884

  998

  1,495

  2,107

  13,787

  March 1992

  1,238

  1,650

  1,705

  5,937

  2,315

  962

  1,587

  2,123

  2,053

  19,570

  June 1992

  1,156

  1,499

  1,789

  6,321

  2,217

  950

  1,740

  2,492

  2,015

  20,179

  September 1992

  1,174

  1,744

  1,828

  7,158

  2,355

  1,076

  1,707

  2,818

  2,267

  22,127

  December 1992

  1,227

  2,083

  1,855

  7,567

  2,421

  1,193

  1,771

  2,890

  1,959

  22,966

  March 1993

  1,396

  1,976

  2,246

  7,914

  1,005

  690

  1,120

  2,930

  1,658

  20,935

  June 1993

  1,023

  1,974

  1,813

  6,017

  712

  635

  936

  2,041

  1,368

  16,519

  September 1993

  747

  1,554

  1,165

  6,611

  1,392

  684

  1,051

  1,482

  1,163

  15,849

  December 1993

  847

  1,726

  1,110

  6,762

  1,791

  547

  1,463

  1,437

  1,485

  17,168

  March 1994

  954

  1,774

  1,069

  8,209

  3,040

  601

  1,194

  1,326

  1,113

  19,280

  Key

  NR=Northern Region.

  EM=East Midlands and Eastern.

  SW=South West.

  WM=West Midlands.

  OS=Office for Scotland.

  YH=Yorkshire and Humberside.

  LSE=London and South East.

  OW=Office for Wales.

  NW=North West.

  Labour Statistics
  Mr. Parry
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will list the top five parliamentary constituencies with(a) the highest level of unemployment and (b) the lowest level, at the latest date for which figures are available.

  Miss Widdecombe
  Official unemployment rates are not available for constituencies and it is only unemployment rates that provide meaningful rankings for areas with different sized work forces. Rates are available by travel-to-work areas and by region.
  396
  The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your questions asking for information about the number of men and women participating in Jobclub and job search seminars since their inception. I am replying in the Chief Executive's absence.
  In our reply of 8 March 1994, we gave you details of men and women participating in Jobclubs in each year between April 1986 to December 1993 and the number of men and women attending job search seminars in each quarter between August 1991 to January 1994.
  The updated information for Jobclub covering the period January to March 1994 is in Table A with earlier figures repeated for ease of reference. The updated information for job search seminars, including the regional breakdown, covers the period August 1991 to April 1994 is in Table B.
  As we explained in our earlier reply, we do not keep statistics on the gender of job search seminar participants. Results from sample survey of the gender of Jobclub members in 1993–94 are now available and have been used to calculate the figures shown in Table B.
  I hope this is helpful.

  Table A—Total number of jobclub participants: Proportion of Males and Females

  Year

  Throughflow

  Males

  Females

  1985–86

  1(1,994)

  n/a

  n/a

  1986–87

  1(20,606)

  15,867

  4,739

  1987–88

  105,677

  80,314

  25,363

  1988–89

  132,262

  97,874

  34,388

  1989–90

  140,095

  102,269

  37,826

  1990–91

  134,712

  102,381

  32,331

  1991–92

  176,140

  140,470

  35,670

  1992–93

  216,679

  173,343

  43,336

  1993–94

  231,325

  182,747

  48,578

  1 Denotes estimated figures.

  Mr. Parry
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will make a statement on the latest unemployment figures for Liverpool, Riverside.

  Miss Widdecombe
  In June 1994, claimant unemployment in the Liverpool, Riverside constituency stood at 6,748 the lowest monthly level since constituency figures became available in June 1983. These figures are on the unadjusted basis and therefore reflect seasonal factors and discontinuities in the count.

  Mr. Parry
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what plans Her Majesty's Government have for reducing the level of unemployment on Merseyside.
  397
  Miss Widdecombe
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide an answer prior to the summer recess. I shall ensure that the hon. Member receives a reply as soon as possible and arrange for a copy to be placed in the Library.

  Mr. Tony Lloyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will list for six-monthly periods from January 1979 to date how many of the vacancies notified to jobcentres in(a) the United Kingdom and (b) each region were (i) full-time and (ii) part-time and (1) permanent and (2) temporary.

  Miss Widdecombe
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide an answer prior to the summer recess. I shall ensure that the hon. Member receives a reply as soon as possible and arrange for a copy to be placed in the Library.

  Job Workshops
  Mr. Tony Lloyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many(a) men and (b) women have attended job review workshops in each month since their inception; and what are the regional figures for attendance by (i) men and (ii) women at these workshops.

  Job Review Workshops April 1993—March 1994

  Region Male/Female

  Quarter 1

  Quarter 2

  Quarter 3

  Quarter 4

  Regional Totals

  Northern

  Male

  207

  217

  261

  193

  878

  Female

  60

  68

  84

  67

  279

  Yorkshire and Humberside

  Male

  693

  707

  662

  614

  2,676

  Female

  136

  166

  186

  161

  649

  East Midlands

  Male

  713

  725

  626

  586

  2,650

  Female

  174

  155

  124

  136

  589

  London and South East

  Male

  2,868

  3,033

  3,185

  3,174

  12,260

  Female

  823

  951

  957

  1,040

  3,771

  South West

  Male

  759

  594

  692

  1,154

  3,199

  Female

  186

  167

  169

  315

  837

  Wales

  Male

  267

  207

  249

  293

  1,016

  Female

  55

  45

  75

  76

  251

  West Midlands

  Male

  448

  453

  465

  458

  1,824

  Female

  83

  90

  129

  131

  433

  North West

  Male

  675

  582

  661

  667

  2,585

  Female

  156

  166

  140

  168

  630

  Scotland

  Male

  506

  441

  547

  570

  2,064

  Female

  153

  168

  190

  191

  702

  National

  Male

  7,136

  6,959

  7,348

  7,709

  29,152

  Female

  1,826

  1,976

  2,054

  2,285

  8,141

  398
  Miss Widdecombe
  Responsibility for the subject of the question has been delegated to the Employment Service Agency under its chief executive. I have asked him to arrange for a reply to be given.

  Letter from A. G. Johnson to Mr. Tony Lloyd, dated 21 July 1994:
  The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question about the number of men and women who have attended Job Review Workshops in each month since their inception and by region. I am replying in the Chief Executives absence.
  Job Review Workshops were launched in October 1991 to help newly unemployed people review their career path and set clear job goals suited to their skills, experience and preferences. The programme is particularly suitable for professional, managerial and executive jobseekers who want to consider alternative careers.
  Statistical data was collected monthly until March 1993. From April 1993 information has been collected on a quarterly basis.
  I attach tables which show, by region, the number of men and women attending the Workshops since their inception until March 1994.
  I hope this is helpful.
  399

  Job review workshops

  Region Male/Female

  April

  May

  June

  July

  August

  September

  October

  November

  December

  January

  February

  March

  Regional totals

  April 1992—March 1993

  Northern

  Male

  85

  96

  55

  78

  46

  67

  127

  115

  85

  84

  48

  86

  972

  Female

  19

  28

  23

  14

  28

  11

  56

  38

  11

  31

  8

  16

  283

  Yorkshire and Humberside

  Male

  175

  245

  148

  200

  176

  187

  262

  251

  183

  250

  175

  225

  2,477

  Female

  41

  58

  40

  43

  33

  29

  63

  105

  76

  74

  41

  38

  641

  East Midlands

  Male

  201

  251

  226

  239

  225

  203

  308

  205

  217

  308

  254

  277

  2,914

  Female

  36

  69

  41

  53

  39

  43

  51

  52

  23

  38

  57

  71

  573

  London and South East

  Male

  849

  990

  1,018

  1,379

  1,342

  1,142

  1,160

  1,189

  960

  1,287

  1,839

  1,153

  14,308

  Female

  257

  233

  262

  402

  393

  327

  334

  358

  305

  382

  489

  357

  4,099

  South West

  Male

  192

  302

  251

  341

  194

  275

  326

  334

  247

  337

  282

  217

  3,298

  Female

  46

  74

  40

  72

  30

  54

  73

  81

  51

  84

  69

  59

  733

  Wales

  Male

  42

  183

  72

  126

  43

  117

  106

  124

  64

  134

  48

  97

  1,156

  Female

  6

  24

  17

  33

  11

  10

  20

  33

  11

  32

  10

  23

  230

  West Midlands

  Male

  165

  215

  169

  182

  102

  167

  229

  228

  143

  204

  200

  202

  2,206

  Female

  24

  53

  24

  44

  15

  18

  38

  32

  20

  27

  39

  45

  379

  North West

  Male

  197

  309

  236

  268

  156

  314

  316

  329

  264

  318

  268

  350

  3,325

  Female

  46

  68

  38

  63

  45

  60

  72

  64

  41

  62

  60

  48

  667

  Scotland

  Male

  198

  168

  439

  500

  326

  230

  199

  211

  131

  198

  125

  278

  3,003

  Female

  53

  41

  51

  62

  58

  58

  51

  69

  36

  50

  37

  85

  651

  National

  Male

  2,104

  2,759

  2,614

  3,313

  2,610

  2,702

  3,033

  2,986

  2,294

  3,120

  3,239

  2,885

  33,659

  Female

  528

  648

  536

  786

  652

  610

  758

  832

  574

  780

  810

  742

  8,256

  October 1991—March 1992

  Northern

  Male

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  37

  64

  28

  93

  100

  103

  425

  Female

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  10

  15

  8

  20

  33

  19

  105

  Yorkshire and Humberside

  Male

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  34

  93

  126

  153

  185

  270

  861

  Female

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  17

  27

  32

  31

  32

  51

  190

  East Midlands

  Male

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  9

  150

  159

  276

  231

  252

  1,077

  Female

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  3

  27

  25

  46

  39

  46

  186

  London and South East

  Male

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  286

  807

  653

  993

  1,190

  1,714

  5,643

  Female

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  79

  206

  149

  233

  363

  413

  1,443

  South West

  Male

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  11

  163

  173

  226

  229

  280

  1,052

  Female

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  14

  27

  33

  56

  54

  46

  230

  Wales

  Male

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  105

  117

  70

  112

  166

  154

  724

  Female

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  8

  17

  7

  24

  33

  33

  122

  West Midlands

  Male

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  14

  62

  98

  107

  146

  232

  659

  Female

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  5

  5

  13

  25

  30

  56

  134

  North West

  Male

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  8

  159

  117

  192

  221

  279

  976

  Female

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  2

  39

  16

  45

  51

  69

  222

  Scotland

  Male

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  40

  202

  99

  150

  264

  194

  949

  Female

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  20

  90

  30

  45

  88

  57

  330

  National

  Male

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  544

  1,817

  1.523

  2,302

  2,732

  3,478

  12,396

  Female

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  158

  453

  313

  525

  723

  790

  2,962

  Mr. Tony Lloyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many(a) men and (b) women have participated in job plan workshops in (i) Great Britain and (ii) each region since their inception; and what evidence he has of positive outcomes nationally and regionally for those who attend job plan workshops.

  Miss Widdecombe
  Responsibility for the subject of the question has been delegated to the Employment Service Agency under its chief executive. I have asked him to arrange for a reply to be given.

  Letter from A G Johnson to Mr. Tony Lloyd, dated 21 July 1994:
  400
  The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question about the number of men and women who have attended Jobplan workshops since their inception and what evidence there is of positive outcomes for those attending. You asked for this information both for Great Britain and for each region. I am replying in the Chief Executive's absence.
  It may help if I explain that Jobplan workshops are for people who have been unemployed for a year who refuse or fail to take up a place on an Employment Department programme at their Restart interview. Jobplan aims to help people compete more successfully for jobs and opportunities by allowing them to review their strengths and skills, establish clear job goals and draw up a comprehensive Action Plan, setting out the steps they need to take to get back to work. People who leave Jobplan may go directly into jobs or, where appropriate, onto other options such as training or Jobclub, which will help them back into work. The rate of referral to jobs or other options is reported by Jobplan Workshop providers and has been a key element in monitoring their performance.

  401
  Jobplan Workshops were launched in April 1993. The tables in annex 1 and 2 show by region the number of men and women attending Jobplan and the rate of referrals to jobs or other opportunities achieved for 1993–94 and for April and May 1994. As you will see during 1993–94, 94 per cent. of workshop completers were referred to a job or an Employment Department employment or training programme or another option to help them back to work. This figure has risen to 96 per cent. in the first couple of months of this operational year. Comprehensive research into the longer term outcomes from Jobplan workshops in their first year of operation will be available later this year.
  I hope this is helpful.

  Jobplan Workshops—Attenders and Positive Outcomes 1993–94

  Attenders

  Positive Outcome Rate (Referrals) Per cent.

  Male

  Female

  Northern

  14,124

  2,613

  91

  Yorkshire and Humberside

  18,568

  3,489

  94

  East Midlands and Eastern

  21,737

  4,254

  92

  London and South East

  96,755

  21,425

  95

  South West

  19449

  4,073

  93

  Wales

  9,414

  1,655

  90

  West Midlands

  23,286

  4,803

  94

  North West

  26,472

  5,361

  95

  Scotland

  20,316

  4,013

  91

  National

  250,121

  51,686

  94

  Jobplan Workshops—Attenders and Positive Outcomes April and May 1994

  Attenders

  Positive Outcome Rate (Referrals) Per cent.

  Male

  Female

  Northern

  2,481

  437

  92

  Yorkshire and Humberside

  3,446

  612

  96

  East Midlands and Eastern

  3,038

  611

  93

  London and South East

  11,807

  2,747

  98

  South West

  2,798

  580

  94

  Wales

  1,693

  270

  94

  West Midlands

  3,210

  721

  96

  North West

  5,169

  966

  95

  Scotland

  3,280

  598

  92

  National

  36,922

  7,542

  96

  Annex 2

  Table showing the numbers of men and women who have left community action and the numbers who have directly entered paid employment 27 July 1993 to 27 May 1994

  North West

  Yorkshire and Humber-side

  East Midlands and East

  London and South East

  South West

  West

  West Midlands

  North West

  South

  Great Britain

  Males Leavers

  416

  570

  556

  1,640

  579

  281

  675

  966

  501

  6,184

  Female Leavers

  66

  115

  118

  460

  105

  82

  196

  160

  117

  1,419

  Total Leavers

  482

  685

  674

  2,100

  684

  363

  871

  1,126

  618

  7,603

  Males into work

  42

  70

  73

  259

  95

  38

  79

  60

  45

  761

  Females into work

  6

  26

  26

  79

  21

  11

  25

  19

  12

  225

  Total into work

  48

  96

  99

  338

  116

  49

  104

  79

  57

  986

  Labour Force Survey
  Mr. Pickles
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what plans he has to speed up the publication of results from the quarterly labour force survey.

  Community Action
  Mr. Tony Lloyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many(a) men and (b) women have participated in community action in each month since its inception; and how many of these found work in Great Britain and in each region.

  Miss Widdecombe
  Responsibility for the subject of the question has been delegated to the Employment Service Agency under its chief executive. I have asked him to arrange for a reply to be given.

  Letter from A. G. Johnson to Mr. Tony Lloyd, dated 21 July 1994:
  The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question about the numbers of men and women who have participated in Community Action in each month since its inception and the numbers of men and women, in each region and in Great Britain, who have found work as a result of participation. I am replying in the Chief Executive's absence.
  The numbers of male and female participants each month are given in annex 1.
  Annex 2 shows the number of men and women who have left the programme and the numbers who have immediately entered paid employment on leaving for the period 27 July 1993 to 27 May 1994. This is the latest date for which figures are available. We expect that many more people will enter paid employment in the period following participation as a direct result of the help they have received through the programme.
  I hope this is helpful.

  Table showing the number of men and women who have participated in Community Action in each month since the programme began

  Month

  Men

  Women

  Total

  July 1993

  35

  1

  36

  August 1993

  96

  13

  109

  September 1993

  258

  35

  293

  October 1993

  1,083

  207

  1,290

  November 1993

  2,547

  566

  3,113

  December 1993

  4,070

  857

  4,927

  January 1994

  6,397

  1,464

  7,861

  February 1994

  11,733

  2,747

  14,480

  March 1994

  18,914

  4,467

  23,381

  April 1994

  21,111

  5,287

  26,398

  May 1994

  23,505

  5,966

  29,471

  Miss Widdecombe
  Following a programme of development work carried out during the last year, methods have now been developed which will make it possible, following a short running-in period, to release key results from the quarterly labour force survey only one and a half months after the end of each survey period.

  The first accelerated LFS results—for the spring—March to May—1994 quarter will be published on

  403
  Wednesday 17 August; results for the summer—June to August—quarter will be published on Wednesday 12 October; for the autumn quarter in mid-January and so on.

  The figures will cover total employment, including the service sector and self-employment; full and part-time employment; unemployment on the internationally standard International Labour Organisation definition; and economic activity and ILO unemployment rates. Regional-territorial and broad industry analyses will also be provided.

  Fuller data from the LFS will continue to be published to the existing timetable. For example, the full results for the spring 1994 quarter will be published in September and the full results for the summer quarter will be published in December.

  Training
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what provisions and criteria for assessment are being used in respect of young partially disabled people in respect of the modern apprenticeship scheme announced in last year's Budget.

  Miss Widdecombe
  [holding answer 19 July 1994]: My right hon. Friend the former Secretary of State made it clear that he wants to see modern apprenticeships open equally to all young people, and this is being built into all the developing frameworks. We shall monitor this aspect closely as modern apprenticeships are implemented in general.

  Mr. Tony Lloyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment (1) what was(a) the total amount spent by his Department for training in Great Britain and in each region in each year since 1989–90, (b) the expected outturn in 1993–94 and (c) plans for 1994–95 all in (i) 1993–94 prices and (ii) cash terms;

  (2) what was the total expenditure by his Department on youth training in each of the last four years in (a) cash terms and (b) 1993–94 prices and in each region; and what are the expected national and regional outturns for 1994–95 in cash terms and in 1993–94 prices;

  (3) how many (a) men and (b) women have attended a training for work courses in Great Britain and in each region;

  (4) what was the expenditure on youth training in Great Britain, both nationally and regionally, in cash terms and in 1993–94 prices in each year since 1989–0; and what are the expected outturns for 1993–94;

  (5) what was the total expenditure by his Department for (a) employment training, (b) employment action and (c) training for work in each of the last four years and in each region in (i) cash terms and (ii) 1993–94 prices; and what are the expected national and regional outturns for 1994–95;

  (6) what are his most recent estimates of the amount spent on training by (a) private employers, (b) public employers, (c) Government and (d) individuals in each of the last 10 years;

  (7) what was the expenditure on (a) training for work, (b) employment training and its predecessors and (c) employment action in Great Britain, both nationally and regionally in (i) cash terms and (ii) 1993–94 prices in each year since 1989–90; and what are the expected outcomes for 1993–94.
  404
  Miss Widdecombe
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide an answer prior to the summer recess. I shall ensure that the hon. Member receives a reply as soon as possible and arrange for a copy to be placed in the Library.

  National Vocational Qualifications
  Mr. Tony Lloyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many(a) males and (b) females have achieved NVQs at each level for each quarter since their inception.

  Miss Widdecombe
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide an answer prior to the summer recess. I shall ensure that the hon. Member receives a reply as soon as possible and arrange for a copy to be placed in the Library.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will list all those organisations approved by the National Council on Vocational Qualifications for external verification of such qualification at each of levels I, II and III.

  Miss Widdecombe
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide an answer prior to the summer recess. I shall ensure that the hon. Member receives a reply as soon as possible and arrange for a copy to be placed in the Library.

  Work Start
  Mr. Tony Lloyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment (1) how many of those who participated in the work start pilots have gone on to find jobs in each region of Great Britain;

  (2) what was the total cost of the work start pilots; and what was their cost in each region.

  Miss Widdecombe
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide an answer prior to the summer recess. I shall ensure that the hon. Member receives a reply as soon as possible and arrange for a copy to be placed in the Library.

  Investors in People
  Mr. Tony Lloyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many companies have signed up for investors in people; and how many have achieved this status, in each month since its inception.

  Miss Widdecombe
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide an answer prior to the summer recess. I shall ensure that the hon. Member receives a reply as soon as possible and arrange for a copy to be placed in the Library.

  Business Start-up and Enterprise Allowance
  Mr. Tony Lloyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many people have participated, both nationally and regionally, in(a) business start-up and (b) the enterprise allowance scheme in each year since their inception.

  Miss Widdecombe
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide an answer prior to the summer recess.
  405
  I shall ensure that the hon. Member receives a reply as soon as possible and arrange for a copy to be placed in the Library.

  Disabled People
  Mr. Tony Lloyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many disabled people in the United Kingdom and in each region of working age are neither in work nor training; and what percentage of the disabled population in this age group this represents.

  Miss Widdecombe
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide an answer prior to the summer recess. I shall ensure that the hon. Member receives a reply as soon as possible and arrange for a copy to be placed in the Library.

  Industrial Injuries
  Mr. Alan Howarth
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what transitional protection will be afforded to non-employed status trainees hitherto eligible to benefit under his Department's analogous industrial injuries scheme, following the enactment of the Social Security (Incapacity For Work) Act 1994; and what transitional arrangements will apply for participants in other schemes funded through his Department and affected by this legislation.

  Miss Widdecombe
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide an answer prior to the summer recess. I shall ensure that the hon. Member receives a reply as soon as possible and arrange for a copy to be placed in the Library.

  16 and 17-year-olds
  Mr. Tony Lloyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment (1) how many 16 and 17-year-olds were not in full time education, training or employment in each quarter since January 1988;

  (2) how many 16 and 17-year-olds were in employment in each quarter since January 1988.

  Miss Widdecombe
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide an answer prior to the summer recess. I shall ensure that the hon. Member receives a reply as soon as possible and arrange for a copy to be placed in the Library.

  Youth Credits
  Mr. Tony Lloyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many(a) men and (b) women were using youth credits to obtain training in each month since the scheme's inception in (i) Great Britain and (ii) each region.

  Miss Widdecombe
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide an answer prior to the summer recess. I shall ensure that the hon. Member receives a reply as soon as possible and arrange for a copy to be placed in the Library.

  Agricultural Workers
  Dr. Strang
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment whether he intends to denounce International Labour Organisation conventions 99 and 101, covering minimum wages and holiday entitlements of agricultural workers.

  Miss Widdecombe
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide an answer prior to the summer recess. I shall ensure that the hon. Member receives a reply as soon as possible and arrange for a copy to be placed in the Library.

LORD CHANCELLOR'S DEPARTMENT

  Small Claims Courts
  Mr. Bermingham
  To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department what are the implications of the recent ruling in Afzal v. Ford Motor Company Ltd., for the right of plaintiffs, making a personal injury claim of under £1,000, to choose whether their claim is heard in the county court or small claims court; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. John M. Taylor
  Under order 19 of the county court rules any claim not exceeding £1,000 is automatically referred to arbitration on the filing of a defence. In these circumstances, recoverable costs are strictly limited. However, if the court considers, for example, that the case is one of exceptional complexity, it may order a trial in open court, where full costs may be recoverable. The recent judgment of the Court of Appeal in Afzal v. Ford Motor Company Ltd. made it clear that where, in the opinion of the court, a claim had been deliberately overstated to avoid automatic reference to arbitration, the court could limit the recoverable costs to those allowed under order 19, rule 4.

  Mr. Bermingham
  To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department what are the implications of the recent ruling in Afzal v. Ford Motor Company Ltd., for the possibility, for the future, of limited costs being made available in those lower value personal injury claims heard in the small claims court; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. John M. Taylor
  My Department recently consulted on proposals for new procedures to apply to personal injury claims not exceeding £1,000. We are currently evaluating the responses to this consultation and are taking into account the implications for our proposals of the judgment of the Court of Appeal in the case of Afzal v. Ford Motor Company Ltd. and related appeals.

  Mr. Bermingham
  To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department what are the implications of the recent ruling in Afzal v. Ford Motor Company Ltd., in respect of the referral of all personal injury claims valued at under £1,000 being referred to arbitration; and what plans there are to introduce a right of appeal for plaintiffs who believe their claims have been undervalued.

  Mr. John M. Taylor
  Under order 19 of the county court rules, any claim not exceeding £1,000 is automatically referred to arbitration on the filing of a defence. The recent judgment of the Court of Appeal in Afzal v. Ford Motor Company Ltd. made it clear that,

  407
  where, in the opinion of the court, a claim had been deliberately overstated to avoid such automatic reference, the court could limit the recoverable costs to those allowed under order 19, rule 4.

  Order 19, rule 8 explains the circumstances when a party may apply to set aside an arbitrator's award. There are no plans to introduce additional rights of appeal.

  Mr. Bermingham
  To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department if he will make it his policy that there will be no increase in the small claims court limit until consultation by his Department on lower value personal injury claims has been concluded and any resulting change in the small claims court rules implemented; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. John M. Taylor
  The consultation period for the proposals to apply to small personal injury claims not exceeding £1,000 closed earlier this year. The responses are being analysed and evaluated. The Lord Chancellor will review the small claims limit later this year. Full consultation will take place before a final decision on a new limit is made.

  Disabled People
  Mr. Alan W. Williams
  To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department if the resultant additional expenses can be reimbursed by the appropriate administrative department when the hearing of a case at a magistrates court involving a disabled person has to be resited because of difficulties of access for that disabled person.

  Mr. John M. Taylor
  Additional travelling costs properly incurred by a disabled witness or successful defendant may be allowed from public funds. In any other case, reimbursement would be a matter for the local magistrates courts committee.

  Unpaid Compensation Orders
  Mr. Bates
  To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department how many compensation orders awarded in 1990, 1991 and 1992 by(a) Teesside Crown court, (b) Teesside magistrates court and (c) Guisborough magistrates court remain unpaid.

  Mr. John M. Taylor
  This information is not available centrally.

  January—March 1994

  Appeal Categories

  Bangladesh

  Ghana

  India

  Jamaica

  Nigeria

  Pakistan

  EC

  All other countries

  All

  Dis

  All

  Dis

  All

  Dis

  All

  Dis

  All

  Dis

  All

  Dis

  All

  Dis

  All

  Dis

  1. Exclusion—Appeal at Port

  —

  2

  1

  2

  —

  3

  —

  2

  —

  10

  —

  2

  —

  —

  1

  14

  2. Exclusion—External Appeals

  —

  5

  —

  2

  —

  6

  1

  18

  1

  5

  —

  8

  —

  —

  15

  207

  3. Refusal of Certificate Entitlement

  3

  66

  1

  5

  3

  18

  —

  —

  3

  11

  2

  13

  —

  —

  9

  18

  4. Refusal of Entry Clearance for Temporary purposes (not husbands, wives, fiances or financees)

  23

  176

  28

  145

  140

  325

  4

  33

  94

  377

  187

  546

  1

  —

  168

  772

  Legal Aid
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department if he will list for each year from 1980 all cases receiving legal aid in excess of(a) £500,000 and (b) £1,000,000.

  Mr. John M. Taylor
  The information requested is not readily available and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Small Businesses
  Mr. David Shaw
  To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department if he will make a statement on the achievements of(a) his policies and (b) his Department in helping small businesses over the last 12 months as against the previous 12 months; if he will publish the performance indicators by which his Department monitors those achievements and the statistical results of such monitoring; and if he will set out his targets to help small businesses in the next year.

  Mr. John M. Taylor
  The Government recognise the crucial role played by small firms in the United Kingdom economy. In November 1993, my Department issued a leaflet for small businesses which explains the possible advantages and disadvantages of using court action to recover debts.

  My Department's standard conditions of contract contain a clause undertaking to pay contractors within 30 days of receipt and agreement of invoices. A further clause requires contractors to include in any subcontracting agreement a term that they will pay the subcontractor within 30 days. Although these clauses will be included in contracts with all outside companies, the effects of such good practices will clearly be more important to small businesses.

  Immigration Appeals
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department how many appeals to immigration adjudicators were(a) allowed and (b) dismissed in 1993 and the first quarter of 1994, broken down according to the nationality of the appellant and the type of decision appealed against.

  Mr. John M. Taylor
  The information given in the tables shows the number of appeals dismissed or allowed by type of decision appealed against and country of origin. Information about the nationality of individual appellants is not available; however, the tables show the country from which appeals originate.
  409 410

  Appeal Categories

  Bangladesh

  Ghana

  India

  Jamaica

  Nigeria

  Pakistan

  EC

  All other countries

  All

  Dis

  All

  Dis

  All

  Dis

  All

  Dis

  All

  Dis

  All

  Dis

  All

  Dis

  All

  Dis

  5. Refusal of Entry Clearance for Employment, Business or Independent Means (not husbands, wives, fiances or fiancees)

  —

  1

  —

  —

  3

  4

  —

  —

  —

  3

  1

  3

  —

  —

  2

  15

  6. Refusal of Entry Clearance requested by wives and children, other dependent relatives and returning residents

  9

  138

  —

  12

  25

  49

  3

  5

  3

  14

  42

  80

  —

  —

  44

  113

  7. Refusal of Entry Clearance requested by female fiancees

  —

  —

  —

  —

  3

  5

  —

  —

  —

  1

  1

  2

  —

  —

  6

  12

  8. Refusal of Entry Clearance requested by husbands

  14

  35

  —

  —

  21

  39

  2

  6

  2

  6

  106

  180

  —

  —

  12

  37

  9. Refusal of Entry Clearance requested by male fiances

  —

  1

  —

  1

  14

  25

  —

  —

  —

  3

  5

  10

  —

  —

  1

  7

  10. Variation of Landing Conditions (including curtailment of stay or duration or conditions of leave to remain given to persons previously exempted (S.14(2))

  —

  8

  —

  6

  —

  19

  —

  3

  —

  10

  —

  31

  —

  —

  12

  106

  11. Refusal to Vary Leave to Enter

  —

  40

  5

  95

  15

  144

  7

  102

  12

  404

  14

  201

  —

  —

  26

  742

  12. Decision to make Deportation Order

  1

  11

  3

  42

  1

  28

  —

  27

  4

  159

  2

  32

  —

  —

  2

  110

  13. Refusal to Revoke Deportation Order

  —

  1

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  3

  —

  1

  —

  —

  2

  7

  14. Giving of Removal Directions

  —

  —

  —

  1

  —

  —

  —

  1

  —

  1

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  15. Destination Only Appeal

  —

  —

  —

  2

  —

  4

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  All: Allowed.

  Dis: Dismissed.

  1993

  Appeal Categories

  Bangladesh

  Ghana

  India

  Jamaica

  Nigeria

  Pakistan

  EC

  All other countries

  All

  Dis

  All

  Dis

  All

  Dis

  All

  Dis

  All

  Dis

  All

  Dis

  All

  Dis

  All

  Dis

  1. Exclusion—Appeal at Port

  2

  20

  —

  23

  7

  20

  —

  8

  1

  22

  7

  27

  —

  13

  2

  74

  2. Exclusion—External Appeals

  —

  23

  1

  8

  2

  21

  5

  57

  2

  42

  2

  22

  —

  1

  50

  680

  3. Refusal of Certificate Entitlement

  29

  139

  2

  9

  9

  27

  3

  8

  13

  29

  5

  21

  —

  —

  20

  80

  4. Refusal of Entry Clearance for Temporary purposes (not husbands, wives, fiances orfinancees)

  125

  629

  114

  43

  609

  1,164

  62

  225

  329

  1,362

  719

  1,762

  —

  —

  673

  295

  5. Refusal of Entry Clearance for Employment, Business or Independent Means (not husbands, wives, fiances or fiancees)

  —

  5

  —

  3

  9

  26

  —

  —

  3

  12

  19

  51

  —

  —

  13

  99

  6. Refusal of Entry Clearance requested by wives and children, other dependent relatives and returning residents

  83

  477

  7

  40

  68

  213

  10

  31

  14

  37

  81

  32

  —

  4

  122

  293

  7. Refusal of Entry Clearance requested by female fiancees

  5

  7

  —

  3

  16

  30

  2

  6

  1

  1

  5

  16

  —

  —

  31

  42

  8. Refusal of Entry Clearance requested by husbands

  35

  92

  3

  10

  71

  162

  3

  15

  5

  23

  316

  663

  1

  —

  49

  92

  9. Refusal of Entry Clearance requested by male fiances

  10

  17

  —

  2

  65

  92

  10

  11

  —

  2

  59

  86

  —

  —

  5

  21

  10. Variation of Landing Conditions (including curtailment of stay or duration or conditions of leave to remain given to persons previously exempted (S.14(2))

  12

  5

  6

  5

  4

  101

  —

  35

  2

  101

  3

  113

  —

  6

  40

  287

  11. Refusal to Vary Leave to Enter

  9

  118

  13

  27

  18

  473

  12

  249

  35

  879

  19

  586

  —

  2

  59

  1,823

  411

  Appeal Categories

  Bangladesh

  Ghana

  India

  Jamaica

  Nigeria

  Pakistan

  EC

  All other countries

  All

  Dis

  All

  Dis

  All

  Dis

  All

  Dis

  All

  Dis

  All

  Dis

  All

  Dis

  All

  Dis

  12. Decision to make Deportation Order

  4

  22

  5

  17

  5

  117

  —

  55

  8

  338

  1

  112

  —

  —

  18

  318

  13. Refusal to Revoke Deportation Order

  —

  —

  —

  5

  1

  4

  —

  1

  —

  4

  —

  3

  —

  —

  —

  8

  14. Giving of Romoval Directions

  —

  —

  —

  2

  —

  2

  —

  —

  —

  6

  —

  2

  —

  —

  3

  10

  15. Destination Only Appeal

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  All: Allowed.

  Dis: Dismissed.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department, how many appeals to the Immigration Appeal tribunal were(a) allowed and (b) dismissed in 1993 and the first quarter of 1994.

  Mr. John M. Taylor
  In 1993, 350 appeals to the Immigration Appeal Tribunal were allowed and 361 were dismissed. In the first quarter of 1994, 41 appeals have been allowed and 59 have been dismissed.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department, how many appellants in appeals under the Asylum and Immigration Appeals Act 1993 have been(a) unrepresented, (b) represented by the Refugee Legal Centre, (c) represented by other voluntary organisations and (d) represented by solicitors or counsel, by hearing centre, since 26 July 1993.

  Mr. John M. Taylor
  The information requested is not available. No separate record is kept of how—if at all—individual appellants are represented.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department, how many applications to the Immigration Appeal Tribunal for leave to appeal to the Court of Appeal under (i) the Immigration Act 1971 and (ii) the Asylum and Immigration Appeals Act 1993 have been(a) granted and (b) refused since 26 July 1993.

  Mr. John M. Taylor
  Since 26 July 1993, nine applications to the Immigration Appeal Tribunal for leave to appeal to the Court of Appeal under the Immigration Act 1971 that have been granted; 58 have been refused.

  Of the applications made under the Asylum and Immigration Appeals Act 1993, five have been granted and 16 refused.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department how many applications for leave for judicial review of decisions of a special adjudicator made under the Asylum and Immigration Appeals Act 1993 that a case was without foundation have been(a) made, (b) granted or (c) refused since 26 July 1993.

  Mr. John M. Taylor
  Since 26 July 1993. 13 applications for leave for judicial review of decisions of a special adjudicator in "without foundation" cases have been made. Of these, six were granted leave, of which three were later withdrawn, and one was dismissed at a substantive hearing. Four applications were refused and three have yet to be considered.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department, what is the average delay, listed by each immigration appeals hearing centre (i) between
  412
  receiving the explanatory statement and papers about a case (a) from a British post overseas and (b) from the Home Office and sending those papers to an appellant or his or her authorised representative and (ii) between the hearing of an immigration appeal by an adjudicator and the dispatch of the determination to the appellant or authorised representative.

  Mr. John M. Taylor
  Copies of the explanatory statement and related papers are dispatched from the immigration appellate authority's principal office at Thanet house in London to the appellant or his or her authorised representative. The IAA aims to dispatch copies of the case papers to the parties within five days in 95 per cent. of cases. This target is achieved regularly and often exceeded.

  In non-asylum cases, the adjudicator's determination issues to the parties, on average, within six to eight weeks of the hearing. For appeals determined under the Asylum and Immigration Appeals Act 1993, the average time from the hearing to the issue of the determination is eight to nine days.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department, how many appeals under the Asylum and Immigration Appeals Act 1993 have been(a) lodged, (b) heard by special adjudicators, (c) allowed, (d) dismissed and (e) dismissed but with a recommendation to the Home Office to reconsider, at each hearing centre.

  Mr. John M. Taylor
  Some 2,283 appeals have been lodged to date under the Asylum and Immigration Appeals Act 1993. The table shows the outcome of those cases which have been determined, at each hearing centre. The figures exclude cases that are part heard or have been adjourned.

  Allowed

  Dismissed

  Withdrawn

  Hatton Cross

  34

  802

  12

  Thanet House

  4

  117

  7

  Birmingham

  1

  91

  —

  Glasgow

  —

  20

  2

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department, in how many appeals under the Asylum and Immigration Appeals Act 1993 the appellants have been(a) refused leave to appeal to the Immigration Appeal Tribunal, (b) granted leave to appeal to the Immigration Appeal Tribunal and (c) heard by the Immigration Appeal Tribunal; and in how many cases heard the appeal was (i) allowed, (ii) dismissed with a recommendation or (iii) dismissed.

  Mr. John M. Taylor
  The number of appeals under the Asylum and Immigration Appeals Act 1993 where the
  413
  appellant has been refused leave to appeal to the Immigration Appeal Tribunal is 607. Leave to appeal has been granted in 183 cases. Of those, eight appeals have so far been allowed; 80 have been remitted for rehearing by an adjudicator; and 33 have been dismissed.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department, how many appeals against claims for asylum certified by the Secretary of State to be unfounded have been(a) lodged, (b) heard by special adjudicators, (c) allowed and (d) dismissed, by appeals hearing centres, since 26 July 1993.

  Mr. John M. Taylor
  Since 26 July 1993, 766 appeals against claims for asylum certified by the Secretary of State to be unfounded have been lodged. These cases are determined at Hatton Cross in west London. To date, 20 have been allowed, 398 dismissed, 11 withdrawn, and 86 referred back to the Secretary of State.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department, how many applications to the Court of Appeal for leave to appeal in cases under (i) the Immigration Act 1971 and (ii) the Asylum and Immigration Appeals Act 1993 have been(a) granted and (b) refused since 26 July 1993.

  Mr. John M. Taylor
  Since 26 July 1993, three applications have been made to the Court of Appeal for leave to appeal in cases under the Immigration Act 1971. Of these, one application was dismissed by consent of the parties, one was refused and the other has not yet been heard. In the same period, seven applications have been made under the Asylum and Immigration Appeals Act 1993. Of these, one was allowed, one was refused and five have not yet been heard.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department, how many judicial reviews of decisions of a special adjudicator made under the Asylum and Immigration Appeals Act 1993 that a case was without foundation have been(a) heard, (b) granted relief and (c) dismissed since 26 July 1993.

  Mr. John M. Taylor
  Since 26 July 1993, one such judicial review was heard and was dismissed.

TRANSPORT

  Public Safety Zone Policy
  Mr. Channon
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will review public safety zone policy and its administration.

  Mr. Norris
  I have asked officials to review public safety zone policy and its administration. The terms of reference for the review are as follows:Review of Public Safety Zone Policy and Administration Terms of Reference
  1. The review will consider how the Public Safety zone policy set out in Department of the Environment Circular 2/92 and Scottish Development Department Circular 16/82, and its administration, are working in practice; and whether changes are needed. It will cover in particular:

  (i) the criteria for establishing Public Safety zones, including

  the level of third party risk against which the policy should seek to provide protection;

  the relevant number and type of aircraft movements;

  414

  the size and shape of the Zones.

  (ii) the policy towards existing and new development in the Zones, including

  the posibility of different policies for different parts of the Zones, or different levels of risk;

  the policy towards roads and railways in Public Safety Zones;

  how the policy can be translated into clear guidance for administration.

  (iii) the administration of the policy.

  Channel Tunnel Rail Link
  Mr. Dunn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when he intends to announce the location for intermediate stations on the channel tunnel rail link.

  Mr. Watts
  I will write to my hon. Friend.

  Northolt Airfield
  Mr. Harry Greenway
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what are the status and purpose of current developments at Northolt airfield; what was the result of his consultation with industry on the way in which the private sector could be involved in making better use of the existing capacity for civil operations at RAF Northolt; what arrangements he is making to consult local residents; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Norris
  We are undertaking a consultation with business aviation users and operators on the ways in which the private sector might become involved in making better use of the existing capacity at RAF Northolt through development of a civil enclave. This is in line with the policy set out in the 1985 White Paper. The purpose of the present consultation is to find out what might be a commercially feasible way forward within current operating constraints at RAF Northolt. The consultation period ends on 19 August. The defence lands agent will be discussing this with local authority officials. We are not consulting on the basis of any change in the limits on civil use at Northolt and therefore the consultation is not intended to be any broader at this stage. Should a development be proposed for such an enclave, then planning permission would be required from the local authority, with an opportunity for all views to be taken into account.

  Airports
  Mr. Cox
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make a statement on future airport development covering existing airports in southern England.

  Mr. Norris
  The last major statement on airport development was in the 1985 White Paper "Airports Policy" Cmnd 9542. Although this remains relevant today, the Government have acknowledged that it needs to be updated. The recent consultation on the report of the runway capacity to serve the south east—RUCATSE—working group provides a focus for such a statement and we intend to make this before the end of the year.

  Disabled Drivers
  Mr. Alfred Morris
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what study his Department has made of the number of fines imposed on severely disabled drivers for parking in central London; what assessment he has made
  415
  of whether the level is increasing or decreasing; what action he has taken or will be taking; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Norris
  My Department has not carried out any such studies and has no plans to do so at the moment.

  Underground (Infrastructure)
  Mrs. Roche
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what discussions he has had with the London Regional Passengers Committee about tunnels and their integrity, water pumps, signals and rolling stock and the effects of these factors on train speeds and thus on overall service; what recommendations the committee has made to him; and if he will publish this information.

  Mr. Norris
  The LRPC regularly makes representations to me on a wide range of issues to do with passenger services on the underground. All the committee's proceedings and representations to the Department are in the public domain.

  Mrs. Roche
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport which stations or sections of tunnel on London Underground do not meet the standards set by the Health and Safety Executive.

  Mr. Norris
  It is for London Underground to ensure the safety of those who work on their railway or those—for example, passengers—who are affected by their work in accordance with the appropriate legislation. Her Majesty's railway inspectorate enforces health and safety on the underground and monitors to see that recommendations arising from its routine inspections are acted upon.

  Barge, South Hams
  Mr. Steen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when he hopes to complete the removal of the jagged metal part of the barge sunk at Hallsands, South Hams; how many days he gave the National Rivers Authority to complete this work from 23 July 1993; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Norris
  The Department is not responsible for removing the remains of the barge from the beach at Hallsands. We refused to allow the barge to remain in the sea as it was a danger to navigation. The National Rivers Authority declined to accept responsibility for the barge, which was owned by its contractor. The remains were sold to a salvage company and they were then hauled on to the beach to be cut up. We have no powers to order the clearance of the remains from the beach.

  Heavy Goods Vehicles
  Mr. Cox
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what discussions he has had, and with whom, as to reducing present restrictions on heavy goods vehicles travelling within residential areas within the Greater London area.

  Mr. Norris
  The Government are not proposing to reduce the present restrictions on heavy goods vehicles travelling within residential areas in London.

  Franchise Expenses
  Mr. Mackinlay
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what was the total cost of(a) legal fees and (b) in-house expenses spent by the franchise director for each
  416
  month since he took up office in relation to the preparation and negotiation of specifications, tenders and contracts relating to prospective franchises.

  Mr. Watts
  Total expenditure, net of recoverable VAT, by the Office of Passenger Rail Franchising on(a) fees to legal advisers and (b) running costs is as follows:

  Amount

  1993–94 (from 8 November)

  Legal fees:

  £826,543.88p

  Running costs:

  £691,310.67p

  1994–95 (to 19 July)

  Legal fees:

  £514,375.73p

  Running costs:

  £557,744.10p

  It is not practicable to apportion these totals between the matters mentioned in the question and other matters on which the office has incurred expenditure.

  Ministerial Visits
  Mrs. Roche
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many overseas visits he and each of his Ministers have made between 1 January and 30 June; during how many he, or each of his Ministers, participated in fundraising activities for the Conservative party; and if he will name the Ministers and the countries in which these activities took place.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  The Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr. Freeman), my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (Mr. Key), my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Mr. Norris) and my noble Friend Lord MacKay have made 18 visits abroad on departmental business to-date this year. Details of all visits are as follows:John MacGregor OBE MP, Secretary of State for Transport
  Sunday 6 February-Tuesday 8 February: Visit to Informal Council meeting in Athens, Greece.
  Wednesday 9 March: Trilateral, German-French-British meeting in Dresden, Germany.
  Monday 14 March-Wednesday 16 March: Second Pan-European Conference in Crete, Greece.
  Sunday 17 April-Monday 18 April: EC Transport Council meeting in Luxembourg.
  Friday 6 May: Official opening of the Channel Tunnel, Calais, France.
  Thursday 26 May-Saturday 28 May: European Conference of Ministers of Transport in Annecy, France.
  Thursday 9 June-Friday 10 June: European Civil Aviation Conference meeting in Copenhagen, Denmark.
  Monday 13 June-Tuesday 14 June: EC Transport Council, Luxembourg.
  The Right Hon. Roger Freeman MP, Minister, for Public Transport
  Friday 7 January: Visiting international stations in Lille, France.
  Friday 6 May: Official opening of Channel Tunnel in Calais, France.
  Robert Key MP, Minister for Roads and Traffic
  Monday 6 June-Wednesday 8 June: Italy.
  Steven Norris MP, Minister pr Transport in London
  Mr. Norris visited Cyprus in his capacity as a Constituency MP. The trip was not funded by public monies.
  Friday 6 May: Official opening of the Channel Tunnel, Calais, France.
  Lord MacKay of Ardbrecknish, Minister for Aviation and Shipping

  Wednesday 26 January: Paris.

  417

  Sunday 13 February-Friday 18 February: Israel.

  Wednesday 23 March: Brussels.

  Tuesday 3 May: Le Havre.

  Tuesday 7 June-Thursday 9 June: Athens.

  Wednesday 22 June: Calais.

  Fund-raising activities for the Conservative party are not part of our official duties.

  Bus and Coach Fares
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what was the percentage change in(a) bus and (b) coach fares, between (i) January 1987 and May 1994 and (ii) August 1992 and May 1994; and what contribution was made in each case by the increase in unit labour costs.

  Mr. Watts
  Information supplied to the Department by a panel of operators indicates that local bus fares in Great Britain increased by 63 per cent. between January 1987 and May 1994, and by 9 per cent. between August 1992 and May 1994. The contribution made by increases in unit labour costs is not known. No information is collected about changes in other—non-local—bus and coach fares.

  Rail Strike
  Mr. Nigel Evans
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (1) what estimate he has made of losses sustained by British Rail due to the signalmen's strike to date;

  (2) what estimates he has made of the effects on the economy of the signalmen's strike to date.

  Mr. Watts
  British Rail estimates that it loses of the order of £9 million per day in revenue for each one day strike. The overall loss to British Rail will depend on the rebate to the access charge made by Railtrack.

  It is impossible to estimate the damage to the overall economy, but continued strike action is clearly detrimental to passengers, the railway industry and the economy as a whole.

  Property Acquisition
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will list the property acquired by his Department on possible routes for(a) the A36 Beckington-East of Bath road scheme and (b) the A46 Upper Swainswick-Tormanton road scheme; what was the total cost of acquisition of this property; and what is the current total estimated market value.

  Mr. Norris
  The question is an operational matter for the Highways Agency. The chief executive, Mr. Lawrie Haynes, is writing to the hon. Member.

  Letter from Lawrie Haynes to Mr. Harry Cohen, dated 20 July 1994:
  I am writing in response to your recent Parliamentary Question to the Secretary of State for Transport about properties acquired in connection with the proposed A36 Beckington to East of Bath and A46 Upper Swainswick to Tormarton improvement schemes. This is a matter for which the Highways Agency is responsible.
  Three properties have been purchased as a result of the A36 scheme—The Villa and Dry Arch Cottage, Farleigh Wick, Bradford on Avon, Wiltshire, and Warleigh Lodge, Bathford Avon. For the A46 scheme, one property, Dunsdown Farm House. West Littleton, Avon, has been acquired. The total cost of acquiring these properties was just under £900,000.
  418
  The combined value of these properties was assessed by the Valuation Office Agency earlier this year as £785,000. The difference between the two figures arises mainly because purchase costs are assessed on an unblighted basis (ie ignoring the effect of the road proposals) whereas current value takes account of blight.

  Motorways
  Mr. Butcher
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will mount a television advertising campaign to remind motorists that the middle and outside lanes of motorways are for overtaking purposes only.

  Mr. Corbett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what proposals he has to mount a publicity campaign to encourage drivers on motorways to use the nearest vacant inside lane.

  Mr. Norris
  In the past we have tried to persuade drivers to show better lane discipline—in particular, in collaboration with the police motorway safety campaign. Unfortunately, this has had no perceptible effect. I am therefore reluctant to divert publicity funds from the child road safety or drink/drive campaigns. We have announced proposals, backed by the insurance companies for post-test driver training which will include instruction in motorway driving techniques. The problem of poor lane discipline will also be addressed as part of the controlled motorway pilot scheme due to begin at Easter 1995 on the south-west sector of the M25.

  Road Schemes
  Mr. Fatchett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will list for the Yorkshire and Humberside region(a) the number of houses bought by his Department since 1988–89 for road schemes, (b) the total cost of purchases, (c) the number and cost of houses bought and then subsequently sold as they were not required for particular road schemes and (d) the level of income received from selling properties surplus to the requirements of road schemes.

  Mr. Norris
  [holding answer 13 July 1994]: As this is an operational matter, the question will be dealt with by the Highways Agency. I have asked the chief executive to write to the hon. Gentleman.

  Letter from Lawrie Haynes to Mr. Derek Fatchett, dated 20 July 1994:
  I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Questioin asking for information about the number and cost of property purchases and sales in Yorkshire and Humberside region since 1988.
  The information you request is as follows:

  (a) the Department has purchased 53 houses in the Yorkshire and Humberside since I April 1988. Additionally 15 flats have been purchased.

  (b) the total cost of purchases is £8,074,299 for houses and £388,640 for flats.

  (c) five houses have been purchased which were not ultimately needed for road schemes at a cost of £722,500. After a period of leasing they were sold for £599,000.

  (d) total receipts from selling properties surplus to requirements is £1,007,000. This includes 11 properties purchased prior to 1 April and subsequently sold for £408,000.

  Departmental Units
  Mrs. Dunwoody
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will list by grade for each of the last five years the number of substantive staff employed by the(a) Marine Pollution Unit, (b) Marine Accident Investigation Branch and (c) Air Accident Investigation Branch.

  1989

  1990

  1991

  1992

  1993

  Marine Pollution Control Unit:

  Grade 4

  1

  1

  1

  1

  1

  Grade 6

  1

  1

  1

  1

  1

  Grade 7

  2

  2

  1

  1

  1

  PSO

  —

  —

  1

  1

  1

  SEO

  —

  —

  1

  1

  1

  SSO

  1

  1

  1

  1

  1

  HEO

  2

  2

  2

  2

  2

  EO

  2

  2

  2

  2

  2

  AO

  2

  2

  2

  2

  1

  AA

  1

  1

  —

  —

  —

  Total

  12

  12

  12

  12

  11

  Marine Accident Investigation Branch:

  Grade 5

  1

  1

  1

  1

  1

  Grade 6

  1

  1

  1

  1

  1

  Grade 7

  4

  4

  4

  4

  4

  Surveyor1

  4

  6

  6

  6

  6

  HEO

  1

  1

  1

  1

  1

  EO

  1

  2

  2

  2

  2

  AO

  1

  2

  2

  2

  2

  AA

  1

  2

  2

  2

  2

  PS

  1

  1

  1

  1

  1

  Div Sec

  —

  1

  1

  1

  1

  Total

  15

  21

  21

  21

  21

  Air Accidents Investigation Branch:

  Grade 4

  1

  1

  1

  1

  1

  Grade 5

  1

  1

  1

  1

  1

  Grade 6

  4

  4

  4

  4

  4

  Grade 7

  23

  23

  23

  24

  24

  HEO

  1

  1

  1

  1

  1

  HPTO

  —

  —

  —

  —

  1

  EO

  2

  2

  2

  2

  2

  AO

  3

  3

  3

  3

  4

  AA

  1

  1

  1

  —

  —

  PS

  2

  2

  2

  2

  2

  TYP

  2

  2

  2

  2

  2

  SGB 1

  1

  1

  1

  2

  2

  P&G (E)1

  —

  —

  —

  —

  1

  EX WKR2

  1

  1

  1

  1

  —

  Total

  42

  42

  42

  43

  45

  1 Progress and general supervisory grade

  2 Experimental worker

  Mrs. Dunwoody
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will list by grade for each of the last five years the number of substantive staff employed by the(a) Marine Pollution Unit, (b) Marine Accident Investigation Branch and (c) Air Accident Investigation Branch.

  Mr. Norris
  The figures requested are as follows:

  1994–95 (£000)

  1993–94 (£000)

  The Coastguard Agency

  24,530

  23,884

  Marine Accident Investigation Branch

  839

  846

  Air Accidents Investigation Branch

  2,852

  2,882

  420
  Mr Norris
  The fingers requested are given in the table.

  Track and Signalling
  Mr. Bayley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how much Railtrack will invest in(a) track and signalling maintenance and repair and (b) track and signalling renewal and new-build schemes in 1994–95.

  Mr. Watts
  Railtrack estimates that it will spend some £750 million on the maintenance and repair of track and signalling and associated structures in 1994–95. Separate figures for signalling renewal and new-build schemes are not available.

  Rail Fares
  Mr. Bayley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (1) what was the cost of a full fare(a) first and (b) second or standard class return British Rail ticket from York to King's Cross in 1979 and in each year since then (i) in cash terms and (ii) at constant 1994 prices;

  (2) what was the average cost per mile of full fare (a) first and (b) second or standard class travel on British Rail in 1979 and in each year since then (i) in cash terms and (ii) at constant 1994 prices.

  Mr. Watts
  I will write to the hon. Member with the information requested and place a copy in the Library.

  Rail Strike (Costs)
  Mr. Gordon Prentice
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what has been the estimated cost to Railtrack to date of the signal staffs dispute.

  £ million

  Year

  LU Core

  L Buses

  TBD

  DLR

  New lines

  Other

  Total

  Cash prices

  1978

  43

  17

  —

  —

  —

  6

  66

  1979

  60

  32

  —

  —

  —

  8

  100

  1980

  78

  45

  —

  —

  —

  —

  123

  1981

  91

  56

  —

  —

  —

  —

  147

  1982

  82

  45

  —

  —

  —

  —

  127

  1983

  110

  58

  —

  —

  —

  —

  168

  1984–85

  147

  60

  —

  33

  —

  —

  240

  1985–86

  143

  40

  —

  33

  —

  18

  234

  1986–87

  171

  36

  —

  16

  —

  18

  241

  1987–88

  206

  20

  —

  61

  —

  7

  294

  1988–89

  200

  25

  1

  51

  6

  29

  312

  1989–90

  294

  28

  1

  93

  13

  14

  443

  1990–91

  414

  28

  1

  139

  45

  7

  634

  1991–92

  298

  38

  1

  162

  71

  12

  582

  1992–93

  632

  46

  1

  —

  96

  14

  789

  1993–94

  484

  21

  —

  —

  301

  15

  821

  1994–95

  435

  20

  —

  —

  537

  11

  1,003

  1995–96

  512

  25

  —

  —

  472

  13

  1,022

  1996–97

  659

  15

  —

  —

  409

  6

  1,089

  At 1993–94 prices:

  1978

  123

  49

  —

  —

  —

  17

  183

  1979

  147

  79

  —

  —

  —

  20

  246

  1980

  162

  93

  —

  —

  —

  —

  255

  1981

  172

  106

  —

  —

  —

  —

  278

  1982

  145

  79

  —

  —

  —

  —

  224

  1983

  186

  98

  —

  —

  —

  —

  284

  1984–85

  188

  69

  —

  53

  —

  —

  310

  1985–86

  236

  96

  —

  50

  —

  27

  409

  1986–87

  253

  53

  —

  24

  —

  27

  357

  1987–88

  290

  28

  —

  86

  —

  10

  414

  1988–89

  263

  36

  1

  67

  8

  38

  413

  1989–90

  362

  34

  1

  114

  16

  17

  544

  1990–91

  472

  32

  1

  158

  51

  8

  722

  1991–92

  319

  41

  1

  174

  76

  13

  624

  1992–93

  652

  47

  1

  —

  99

  14

  813

  1993–94

  484

  21

  —

  —

  301

  15

  821

  1994–95

  418

  19

  —

  —

  516

  10

  963

  1995–96

  474

  23

  —

  —

  437

  12

  946

  1996–97

  596

  13

  —

  —

  370

  5

  984

  Notes:

  1. Figures for years up to 1993–94 are from London Transport Annual Reports. 1984–95 comprised 15 months.

  2. 1991–92 was the last year in which LT were responsible for the Docklands Light Railway: this is now the responsibility of the London Docklands Development Corporation.

  3. Figures for 1994–95 are LT's forecasts in their Budget for the year. In favourable circumstances, higher proceeds from the sale of LBL subsidiaries will allow a higher level of core business investment than shown here.

  4. Figures for 1995–96 and 1996–97 are based on LT's plans following the Unified Budget, 1993. The amount of investment spend possible in these years and its allocation between headings within the core business are only indicative at this stage.
  422
  Mr. Watts
  Railtrack estimates that it has lost up to £6 million per day in access charges for each one-day strike, depending on the number of services which can run.

  London Transport
  Mr. Keith Hill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will set out the total investment and planned investment by London Transport and the amount spent on(a) London Underground core business, (b) London Buses, (c) tendered bus division, (d) Docklands light railway, (e) new lines and extensions and (f) other, in each year between 1978 and 1996–97 at both cash prices and 1993–94 prices.

  Mr. Norris
  The information requested is as follows:

  Railway Platforms (Tactile Edging)
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make representations to British Rail to secure that tactile edging is placed on all railway platforms in the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Watts
  The Health and Safety Executive has consulted on revised "Railway Construction and Operational Requirements" to be published by the end of this year, which propose that platforms on new or rebuilt stations must have a tactile surface to indicate the edge to blind and partially sighted people, and that edges should be clearly defined with a strip of a lighter colour.

  The Rail Regulator is proposing a similar recommendation in his code of practice to protect the interests of disabled passengers.

  Hall Sands (Barge)
  Mr. Steen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will reimburse South Hams district council for the cost entailed in removing from the beach at Hall sands the barge formerly scuttled off Hall sands which was towed to the beach on the instructions of his Department.

  Mr. Norris
  [holding answer 19 July I 994]: The Department required the removal of this barge from a reef off the beach because it was a danger to navigation. The present owners, not the Department, decided to take the barge to the beach. Financial responsibility for the district council's costs is a matter between the council and the owners.

  Railtrack
  Mr. Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will publish the powers and duties of Railtrack; and if he will place a copy in the Library.

  Mr. Watts
  [holding answer 20 July 1994]: These documents are already available for inspection at Companies House. I am arranging for a copy to be placed additionally in the Library.

  Traffic Cones
  Mr. Donohoe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (1) if he will make a statement on the number of calls received by the cones enquiry line in each month since it was established;

  (2) what measures his Department has taken to publicise the services offered by the cones enquiry line;

  (3) how much the cones enquiry line has cost to administer and publicise in each financial year since its establishment; how much it is estimated that the cones enquiry line will cost to publicise and administer in the current financial year; and if he will make a statement;

  (4) how many traffic cones have been (a) placed on and (b) removed from the road network under the direct authority of his Department during the period that the cones enquiry line has been in operation;

  (5) how much his Department has spent on (a) traffic cones and (b) road signs during the last year; and how many (i) traffic cones and (ii) road signs have been purchased during this period;

  (6) what assessment his Department has made of the inquiries made to the cones enquiry line;
  424
  (7) how many cones have been removed from the roads network as a result of complaints lodged with the cones enquiry line;

  (8) what constitutes a cone for the purpose of an inquiry to the cones enquiry line.

  Mr. Norris
  [holding answer 20 July 1994]: As these are now operational matters for the Highways Agency, the chief executive has written to the hon. Member.

  Letter from Laurie Haynes to Mr. Brian Donohoe, dated 20 July 1994:
  You asked the Secretary of State for Transport for information on the Cones Hotline. As this is now an operational matter for the Highways Agency, I am replying to your questions.
  1. To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, if he will make a statement on the number of calls received by the Cones Enquiry Line in each month since it was established.
  The number of calls received on the Cones Hotline from the date of its inception to 8 July 1994 was 6,347. The figures have not been recorded in monthly form but 6,167 of the total have been received since mid-December 1993 when the road signs were introduced. This means that the average number of calls received per month is 880.
  2. To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, what measures his Department has taken to publicise the services offered by the Cones Enquiry Line.
  The Hotline number is displayed on signs which appear at the end of all major maintenance works. It appears in the Highways Agency's general information brochure and in its Road User's Charter. It is also registered with Directory Enquiries and with AA Roadwatch and RAC Roadata.
  3. To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, how much the Cones Enquiry Line has cost to administer and publicise in each financial year since its establishment; how much it is estimated that the Cones Enquiry Line will cost to publicise and administer in the current financial year; and if he will make a statement.
  Since the beginning of the current financial year the cost of the dedicated telephone line has been about £450 per month, including call charges. The Hotline previously operated on the Department's general switchboard. There have been no other separately identifiable costs, either in previous years or in the current year, because the Hotline has operated within running cost structures agreed before its inception. No staff are employed exclusively on Hotline activity. There is no advertising or publicity budget for the Hotline.
  4. To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, how many traffic cones have been (a) placed on and (b) removed from the road network under the direct authority of his Department during the period that the Cones Enquiry Line has been in operation.
  The placement and removal of traffic cones is a matter for contractors or their traffic management sub-contractors. While they must follow traffic management and safety guidelines in laying out cones, they are not asked to provide figures on the number placed or removed.
  5. To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, how much his Department has spent on (a) traffic cones and (b) road signs during the year; and how many (i) traffic cones and (ii) road signs have been purchased during this period.
  Neither the Department nor the Agency buys traffic cones. They are purchased by and are the property of contractors or their traffic management sub-contractors. As with road signs their provision is included in the cost of contracts. There are no separately identifiable figures for the cost of cones and signs or the numbers provided of each.
  6. To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, what assessment his Department has made of the enquiries made to the Cones Enquiry Line.
  Enquiries are assessed as they are received. As many calls as possible are dealt with immediately; formal complaints or observations are referred to the regional offices for further investigation. The Hotline operator will make special enquiries whenever a number of calls are received in respect of the same location or roadwork site.
  7. To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, how many cones have been removed from the roads network as a result of complaints lodged with the Cones Enquiry Line.

  425
  Cones in place at three different sites have been removed as a direct result of enquiries made to the Cones Hotline. The appropriate contractors were instructed to remove the cones but no count of the precise number involved was necessary.
  8. To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, what constitutes a cone for the purpose of an enquiry to the Cones Enquiry Line.
  The Cones Hotline will respond to any call related to delay arising from roadworks on the motorway and trunk road network.
  I hope this information is helpful.

  Vehicle Inspectorate
  Mr. Donohoe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what assessment the vehicle inspectorate has made of the impact of the changes contained in the Contracting Out and Deregulation Bill on its existing operation; and how the vehicle inspectorate intends responding to this legislative change in operational terms.

  Mr. Norris
  [holding answer 20 July 1994]: Discussions are taking place with the vehicle inspectorate about the implications for them of the proposed new legislation. Nothing in the Bill, would affect the inspectorate's role enforcing roadworthiness and traffic regulations. Nor would there be any change in their role of advising the traffic commissioners about operators.

  Marine Conservation
  Ms Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what input his Department will have in respect of the selection and designation of marine special protection areas and special areas of conservation; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Norris
  The nature conservation agencies through the Joint Nature Conservation Committee, will be advising the Government on which areas may be considered for designation as special areas of conservation. The Department of Transport, together with other Departments, will be fully involved in discussing these proposals prior to public consultation. Work to identify special protection areas has been going on for some time. The Department of Transport will be consulted before any areas are designated.

  Conservation Areas
  Ms Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what proposals he has under the EC habitats directive to ensure control and development in SACs and SPAs.

  Mr. Norris
  Special areas of conservation and special protection areas will be protected under the regulations to implement the habitats directive which are currently awaiting parliamentary approval. These regulations apply to aspects of development control which come within the responsibility of my Department.

TREASURY

  Company Cars
  Mr. Burns
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the practice of the Inland Revenue on the tax treatment of the offer of a cash alternative to a company car.
  426
  Mr. Kenneth Clarke
  Where an employee has a company car available for private use he or she is usually taxed on the benefit of the car. The employer pays class 1A national insurance contributions on the benefit.

  However, a judgment by the House of Lords in 1969 means that in some circumstances, where the benefit of a car is freely convertible into cash, the benefit is taxable under the general income tax rules rather than the special provisions for company cars. In these special circumstances the employee pays tax on the cash which he or she could get, and the employer does not pay national insurance contributions.

  Some employers are making arrangements designed specifically to bring company cars within the terms of this judgment to avoid class 1A NICs and, in some cases, give a lower tax charge.

  In order to remove further uncertainty and to prevent loss of revenues to the Exchequer and national insurance fund we intend to propose legislation in the next Finance Bill. The proposed legislation will ensure that where a car would otherwise be within the special income tax rules for company cars, and an alternative to the benefit of that car is offered, the mere fact that the alternative is offered will not make the benefit of the car chargeable to tax under the general income tax rules. The employee will then pay tax on what they actually get—car or cash. Employers will pay national insurance contributions as appropriate—class 1A on the benefit of a car or class 1 on cash.

  We intend that this provision should apply from 6 April 1995.

  Private Finance Panel
  Mr. Burns
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make a statement about the provision of grant in aid to the private finance panel.

  Mr. Kenneth Clarke
  I propose to make available to the private finance panel a grant-in-aid of £260,000 in 1994–95. This will represent a Government contribution towards the administrative costs of the panel. Parliamentary approval for this new service will be sought in a winter supplementary estimate for Her Majesty's Treasury's vote, class XVII, vote 1. Pending that approval, urgent expenditure, estimated at up to £150,000 will be met by repayable advances from the contingencies fund. The grant-in-aid will be met from existing provision on the vote and will not, therefore, add to the planned total of public expenditure.

  Redundant Factories (Social Housing)
  Mr. Burns
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will review the VAT rules under which tax is currently charged when redundant factories are converted into social housing; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Kenneth Clarke
  I am pleased to announce that today Customs have published draft legislation which, subject to the approval of the House, will enable such conversions to be free of VAT. Customs have also announced that by concession the change will be operative from today. The result will be that the sale of any dwelling that is created by the conversion of a non-domestic building will be free of VAT. The relief will also apply to DIY builders who, for example, convert redundant barns into dwelling.
  427
  Additionally the proposed draft legislation amends the list of items installed in new dwellings on which input tax cannot be reclaimed. This relaxation will also operate from today by concession.

  These two measures will result in approximately £20 million per annum being injected into the house building industry in terms of VAT revenue forgone. The proposed legislation will also simplify the application of a complex part of the VAT legislation, remove ambiguities and clarify the existing law.

  A copy of the proposed legislation has been deposited in the Library.

  VAT
  Mr. Burns
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer when a fresh Treasury order will be laid before the House to update the payments-on-account scheme for VAT.

  Mr. Kenneth Clarke
  The current annual cycle for the payments on account scheme runs from October to September. To avoid the timing difficulties caused by the move to a November Budget the scheme year will be realigned with the fiscal year to run from April to March.

  The current scheme, which was intended to last for one year, will continue to the end of March 1995. The current VAT Payments on Account Order 1993 will therefore be replaced in time for the annual cycle beginning in April 1995.

  This will mean that some businesses may be kept in the scheme for six months longer than expected, but the provisions for having payments reduced and for leaving the scheme where annual liability falls below £1.6 million will still apply in appropriate cases.

  When the current order is replaced it will be amended to provide for automatic rolling forward of the scheme year in future without the need for a fresh statutory instrument.

  Customs will conduct a review of the operation of the scheme. A consultation paper will be issued and all interested parties, including businesses in the scheme, will be offered the chance to participate in the consultation process.

  The consultation paper will aim to address the concerns expressed by businesses about the scheme and to consider the scope for greater flexibility in its operation.

  Valuation Office
  Mr. Burns
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer when the three-year review of the Valuation Office agency will commence.

  Mr. Kenneth Clarke
  A review of the agency status of the Valuation Office is to commence on 1 August 1994. As

  Outcome of the Treasury's debt sale

  Issuer

  Maturity date

  Coupon (per cent.)

  Face value (£ million)

  Bid (£ million)

  Accrued interest (£ million)

  Total proceeds (£ million)

  British Telecom

  31 March 1998

  8·625

  141·4

  143·9

  6·0

  150·0

  British Telecom

  31 March 1999

  8·75

  154·8

  158·1

  6·5

  164·7

  British Telecom

  31 March 2005

  9·250

  243·6

  253·3

  9·9

  263·2

  London Electricity

  25 September 1999

  12·661

  70·0

  79·5

  3·6

  83·2

  Manweb

  25 September 1999

  12·661

  20·0

  22·6

  1·0

  23·6

  Manweb

  25 September 2008

  12·365

  37·0

  45·6

  1·9

  47·5

  National Power

  25 March 1998

  12·035

  350·0

  379·5

  17·3

  396·8

  Scottish Hydro-Electric

  24 March 2005

  11·856

  116·0

  134·8

  5·7

  140·5

  Seeboard

  25 September 2008

  12·365

  54·0

  66·8

  2·7

  69·6

  1,186·7

  1,284·2

  54·8

  1,339·0

  428
  a next steps agency the performance of the VO will be evaluated and its activities will be subjected to the normal prior options tests set out in the 1993 "Next Steps Review" (Cm 2430).

  Comments and contributions from those with an interest in the VO and its work would be welcome and should be sent by 30 September 1994 to Mr. Brian Mace, Valuation Office Review, Inland Revenue, Room 223, South west wing, Bush house, Strand London WC2B 4RD.

  Tax Advice
  Mr. Burns
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will update the information given in the July 1993 tax ready reckoner and tax reliefs booklet.

  Mr. Kenneth Clarke
  The Treasury today is publishing a booklet containing estimates of the effects of various illustrative tax changes on tax receipts in 1994–95 and 1995–96 and preliminary estimates of the costs of the main tax reliefs in 1993–94 and 1994–95. Copies are being placed in the Libraries of both Houses.

  Privatised Companies (Debt)
  Mr. Burns
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make a statement on the outcome of the sale of part of the Government's holding of privatised companies' debt.

  Mr. Kenneth Clarke
  I am pleased to report that the sale was successfully completed on 19 July. The Treasury accepted bids totalling £1·3 billion for the early redemption of the electricity and British Telecom bonds shown in the table.

  Payment, with accrued interest, will be made to the Exchequer on 23 August 1994. The costs of the auction are expected to amount to some £0·7 million or less than 0·04 per cent. of proceeds. The proceeds will contribute towards the target of £5·5 billion privatisation proceeds for 1994–95.

  In addition, Eastern Electricity bought back two bonds with face value of £118 million, with payment of £146·2 million—capital and interest—received on 29 April, and the National Grid Company exercised its pre-emption rights to repurchase two bonds with face value of £300 million, with payment of £343·4 million—capital and interest—received on 5 July. Including these receipts, the total proceeds—capital and interest—from the sale will be some £1·8 billion.

  I am satisfied that the sale has secured good value for the taxpayer.

  Bank of England
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will publish in the Official Report the losses incurred by the Bank of England since 1985 supporting (a) financial institutions and (b) manufacturing industry, the names of the borrowers and the date and path along which the loans were made and the date and form in which losses were disclosed in each case in the Bank's balance sheet; what reason of public policy led to the making of the loans and who is carrying the losses; and what assessment he has made of compliance with the Companies Act and rules of the regulatory agencies.

  Mr. Nelson
  The bank made provisions of £25 million in 1991–92 and £90 million in 1992–93, in respect of indemnities given to lenders to a number of small authorised banks. The total provision was reduced by £10 million in the year to February 1994. The background to these movements in provisions was set out in the bank's accounts for 1992–93 and 1993–94. As explained there, this support was designed to avert the possibility of widespread difficulties in the banking system and in the economy, and was successful in containing the potential problem.

  In the year to February 1985, the bank made a provision of £34 million against possible losses on indemnities given in respect of the value of the loan book of Johnson Matthey Bankers, now Minories Finance Ltd. Subsequent recoveries by MFL have fully offset this provision.

  The bank is not subject to the Companies Acts or to the disclosure rules of regulatory agencies, but its published accounts present fairly the state of affairs of the banking department in accordance with the Companies Act and applicable accounting standards in so far as they are appropriate to a central bank.

  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what assessment he has made of the effects of publishing the minutes of his monthly meetings with the Bank of England.

  Mr. Nelson
  The Chancellor said in the Mansion House speech, and repeated at the Treasury and Civil Service Committee hearing, that publishing minutes was an important decision and one which made decision taking about interest rates in this country one of the most transparent in the world. A more informal debate about economic policy can take place because of the openness that surrounds discussions on monetary policy. The Chancellor said in the Mansion House speech:"I have given today's politicians and tomorrow's politicians no choice but to pursue the path of low inflation to which we are so clearly committed".

  The latest minutes of the 8 June meeting were published on 20 July.

  Retail Prices Index
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will publish a table showing his current estimate of the effect on the retail prices index of(a) a reduction of three percentage points on mortgage interest rates and (b) on the nominal exchange rate of 10 per cent. on a trade-weighted basis.

  Mr. Nelson
  A reduction in mortgage interest rates of three percentage points would contribute about -1·8 percentage points to the all items retail prices index.
  430
  The effect on the RPI of a change in the exchange rate depends on the circumstances in which it occurs. It is not possible to give a single estimate.

  Imports and Exports
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, pursuant to his answer of 1 July,Official Report, column 758, what assessment he has made of the factors which account for (a) the change in the level of exports to the rest of the EC of consumer goods including passenger motor cars in the three years to 1991 and the subsequent change to the first quarter of 1994 and (b) the corresponding increases of exports to the rest of the world: how the figures for the three months ended April differ from his forecasts since September 1992; and what were the corresponding changes in the volume of imports and in United Kingdom output of the consumer goods industries, and the figures for April.

  Mr. Clarke
  As discussed in the Treasury's summer economic forecast, export and import levels are affected by a number of factors including world trade, domestic demand and competitiveness. Forecasts are not made separately for trade with other EC countries and with non-EC countries, nor for consumer goods including passenger motor cars.

  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimates he has available on the effect of differing degrees of devaluation on the share of imports in the United Kingdom market.

  Mr. Nelson
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide a substantive answer before the summer recess. I shall write to the hon. Member shortly and place a copy of the letter in the Library.

  City (Earnings)
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what effect the increase in bonuses paid in the City in 1994 had on the increase in average earnings; and what proposals he has to restrict such bonuses.

  Mr. Nelson
  The large rise in bonuses in the financial sector in the first quarter of 1994 contributed to the rise in whole economy underlying average earnings growth, but it is not possible to say by exactly how much. Underlying average earnings growth has since fallen back, from 4 per cent. in March to 3⅔ per cent. in April and May.

  Bonus payments are a matter for individual firms and their employees.

  VAT Tribunals
  Mr. Wallace
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what information he has regarding diverging standards of proof required by VAT tribunals in England and Scotland in respect of the evidence required to establish error for purposes of imposing civil penalties; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Kenneth Clarke
  The VAT tribunals are independent bodies. Her Majesty's Customs and Excise are not aware of any diverging standards of proof required by them.

  Exchange Rates
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will publish a table showing the percentage change for the United Kingdom and each EC country in imports and exports to the EC in terms of value in dollar terms together with(a) the average exchange rate against the dollar, (b) the increase in producer prices and (c) the increase in current or average value for September 1992 to the latest available date.

  Mr. Nelson
  The data on exchange rates and trade are given in the EUROSTAT publication "Eurostatistics, Data for Short-term Economic Analysis", published monthly. Producer prices are published by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development in "Main Economic Indicators", also published monthly.

  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, (1) pursuant to his answer of 4 July,Official Report, columns 13–14, what account he takes of overall living standards in deciding his objectives for exchange rate and competitiveness policies in relation to the total output and employment;

  (2) pursuant to his answer of 4 July, Official Report, columns 13–14, through what mechanism a sustained growth in output and employment may be combined with the elimination of the balance of payments deficit other than through a fall in the exchange rate to a more competitive level;

  (3) what assessment he has made of the contribution made by exchange rate changes to the change in export levels to other EC countries since February 1993;

  (4) what evidence he has about the effect of excluding rates in the United Kingdom's levels of production, export, import, investment and employment;

  (5) pursuant to his answer of 4 July, Official Report, column 14, concerning the exchange rate and competitiveness, what effect he expects output and employment of recessions in the EEC and other industrial countries to have on his policies; and what evidence he draws from other countries that his policies will have the effects intended;

  (6) what evidence he has on the effect of falls in the nominal exchange rate which have not resulted in a Fall in the real exchange rate have raised the rate of inflation: and what is the mechanism by which a fall in the nominal rate unaccompanied by a fall in the real rate results in a higher rate of inflation;

  (7) what is the Government's policy on the extent to which interest rates and the rate of exchange can fall in order to reduce import penetration of the United Kingdom market for consumer goods;

  (8) pursuant to his answer of 4 July, Official Report, columns 13–14, whether he regards as inflationary for the purposes of monetary and exchange rate policy the increase in rail fares as shown in the retail prices index since (a) January 1987 and (b) August 1992; and how much of the increase in each case was due to a (i) reduction in Government subsidies and (ii) an increase in unit labour costs;

  (9) in which periods since 1970 falls in the nominal exchange rate have been greater than that required to compensate for an increase in the general level of prices; and what evidence he has that such falls in the real exchange rate have been inflationary.

  (10) pursuant to his answer of 4 July, Official Report, columns 13–14, what assessment he has made of the effect
  432
  of consumer prices and on the balance of visible trade of the fall in and real value of (a) the Italian lira and (b) the pound sterling against the ecu and other currencies since August 1992; if he will publish a table showing for Italy and the United Kingdom (i) the fall since August 1992 in the nominal exchange rate against the ecu and other currencies, (ii) the increase in the latest period of 12 months in producer and in consumer prices, (iii) the increase since August 1992 in import and export unit values for total trade and for manufactures and (iv) the balance of visible trade each year from 1990 and the current year to date at an annual rate;

  (11) what comparison he has made between the effects of exchange rates on inflation in Italy and the United Kingdom since September 1992;

  (12) pursuant to his answer of 4 July, Official Report, column 14, concerning the exchange rate and competitiveness, what effect he expects his policies to have on the share of manufacturing in gross domestic product; and what this share was in 1964, 1973, 1979, 1989 and at the latest available date;

  (13) pursuant to his answer of 4 July, Official Report, columns 13–14, what assessment he has made of the effect on the United States and United Kingdom economies of the fall in real interest rates and in the nominal exchange rate for the dollar since August 1992; and if he will publish a table showing for the United Kingdom and the United States of America the reduction in real interest rates and the nominal exchange since August 1992 and the increase since 1992 in (a) real GDP, (b) manufacturing output, (c) unit wage costs in manufacturing, (d) producer prices, (e) employment and (f) the percentage rate of unemployment;

  (14) what is his estimate of the reduction in unit labour costs in the import-competing and export industries required to reduce or increase the real value of sterling to its current nominal value: and what is his forecast of the likely effect of such a reduction on output and employment in those industries;

  (15) if he will list the industrial countries whose trade-weighted real rate of exchange for manufactured goods has appreciated more since the second half of 1973 than that of the United Kingdom, as measured by (a) the terms of trade for manufactures, (b) relative producer prices and (c) relative export unit values;

  (16) pursuant to his answer of 4 July, Official Report, columns 13–14, whether he regards as inflationary for the purposes of monetary and exchange rate policy increases in the retail price of beer, wines and spirits and tobacco; what was the increase in retail prices in each case since (a) January 1987 and (b) August 1992; and how much of the increase was due to increases in (i) taxation, (ii) unit labour costs in production and (iii) unit labour costs in distribution.

  (17) what assessment the Government made before joining the ERM of the effect on output and employment in manufacturing industry; and what was the actual outcome for the period considered;

  (18) further to his written reply dated 4 July, c. 13–14, concerning the exchange rate and competitiveness, in what respects his monetary and exchange rate policies have changed since October 1989;

  (19) what evidence he has of the effect of changes in the exchange rate have been greater than that required to compensate for an increase in the general level of prices; and what evidence he has that falls in the real exchange rate have been inflationary.
  433
  Mr. Nelson
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide a substantive answer before the summer recess. I shall write to the hon. Member shortly and place a copy of the letter in the Library.

  Corporation Tax
  Mr. Steen
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many draft version CT200 Inland Revenue corporation tax returns have been printed; and at what cost to public funds.

  Sir George Young
  The Inland Revenue produced three versions of the corporation tax return CT 200 which consisted of the original sample; modified samples which were circulated for comment to the professional bodies; and the first issue during 1993–94. A total of 2,193,050 were produced at a cost of £542,696 excluding VAT.

  Competitiveness
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what effect his policy on competitiveness will have on the rate of increase of the real incomes before tax of the top and bottom deciles of incomes.

  Mr. Kenneth Clarke
  Government policies are focused on improving incentives, encouraging enterprise and helping to create a well-educated, highly skilled labour force. That is the best way to ensure rising incomes for all.

  Attending

  Chancellor of the Exchequer

  Indonesia and the Philippines—January 1994

  Trade Mission

  Switzerland—January 1994

  World Economic Forum Meeting

  Germany—February 1994

  G7 Meeting

  France—February 1994

  Bilateral talks with French Government

  Belgium—February 1994

  ECOFIN

  United States of America—March 1994

  Jobs Conference

  Belgium—arch 1994

  ECOFIN

  Sweden—March 1994

  Speech engagement

  Greece—April 1994

  Informal ECOFIN

  Poland—April 1994

  Bilateral talks with Polish Government

  Russia—April 1994

  EBRD Annual Meetings

  United States of America—April 1994

  IMF Spring Meetings

  Belgium—May 1994

  ECOFIN

  Luxembourg—June 1994

  ECOFIN

  France—June 1994

  OECD

  Greece—June 1994

  European Council

  Germany—June 1994

  Bilateral talks with German Government

  Chief Secretary

  Brazil—March 1994

  Trade Mission

  Chile—March 1994

  Representing United Kingdom Government at inauguration of new President

  Spain—June 1994

  Speaking engagements

  Economic Secretary

  United States of America—May 1994

  Trade Mission

  Japan—May 1994

  Trilateral Meetings

  None of these visits involved fund-raising activities for the Conservative party.

  European Structural Fund
  Mr. Fatchett
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what arrangements have been made to ensure that structural fund resources are being made available now to national and local agencies and under(a) objective 2 and (b) objective 3.

  Industrial Output
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, pursuant to his answer of 4 July,Official Report, column 14, which industries he expects to increase their share of gross domestic product within the framework provided by his policies.

  Mr. Nelson
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide a substantive answer before the summer recess. I shall write to the hon. Member shortly and place a copy of the letter in the Library.

  Ministerial Visits
  Mrs. Roche
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many overseas visits he and each of his Ministers have made between 1 January and 30 June; during how many he, or each of his Ministers, participated in fund-raising activities for the Conservative party; and if he will name the Ministers and the countries in which these activities took place.

  Mr. Kenneth Clarke
  The overseas visits made by Treasury Ministers between January and June 1994 are listed below:

  Mr. Kenneth Clarke
  These arrangements are the responsibility of the President of the Board of Trade and of the Secretary of State for Employment respectively.

  Share Dividends
  Mr. Fisher
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) what proportion of personal wealth is attributed to dividends in each of the last 15 years;

  (2) what proportion of distributed dividends by companies has been paid to (a) individual shareholders and (b) institutions in each of the last 15 years;
  435
  (3) what was the ratio of distributed dividends to retained profits in companies of the last 15 years in (a) the United States of America, (b) Japan, (c) Germany, (d) Canada, (e) France, (d) Italy, (f) Hong Kong and (g) the United Kingdom.

  (4) what are the figures for distributed dividends by private companies as a percentage of after-tax earnings in each of the last 15 years.

  Mr. Nelson
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide a substantive answer before the summer recess. I shall write to the hon. Member shortly and place a copy of the letter in the Library.

  Mr. Meacher
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, pursuant to his answer of 5 July,Official Report, column 107, what is the geographic breakdown of the payments; what is the approximate value of the assets against which these claims are being made; what amounts of these payments are going to residents of (a) Switzerland, (b) the Channel Islands and (c) offshore tax havens; what estimate he makes of the extent to which these payments are being made to corporations or trusts whose ultimate beneficiary or owner is resident in the United Kingdom; what is the total value of dividends or other payments in the United Kingdom, for each of the years given in his answer; and what proportions of overall tax credits are represented by the figures he gives in his answer, for each of the years given.

  Sir Kenneth Clarke
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide a substantive answer before the summer recess. I shall write to the hon. Member shortly and place a copy of the letter in the Library.

  Capital Gains Tax
  Mr. Meacher
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will estimate the probable loss of capital gains tax arising from the foreign ownership of United Kingdom assets involved in transactions each year from 1981 to 1993–4; and if he will estimate the volume of United Kingdom assets in foreign ownership in which transactions occurred for each of these years.

  Mr. Kenneth Clarke
  The information on which to base reliable estimates is not available.

  Mr. Meacher
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate he has made of the loss to the Exchequer in each year since 1981 from non-payment of capital gains tax on capital gains accruing to(a) United Kingdom residents and (b) foreign claimants on offshore tax havens.

  Mr. Kenneth Clarke
  The figures for uncollected capital gains tax for each year since 1981 are as follows:

  Year

  Amount in thousands

  1981

  2,734

  1982

  4,868

  1983

  6,496

  1984

  5,998

  1985

  7,562

  1986

  10,064

  1987

  8,822

  1988

  12,680

  1989

  10,864

  1990

  12,002

  1991

  29,721

  1992

  57,836

  436
  Information is not available to break down the figures between United Kingdom residents and foreign claimants.

  Mr. Meacher
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will list those reports and studies made or commissioned by his Department into the loss of capital gains tax arising from foreign ownership of United Kingdom assets since 1981; and if he will list each of those occasions when the Inland Revenue has requested a study of the potential loss of capital gains tax arising from foreign ownership of United Kingdom assets.

  Mr. Kenneth Clarke
  We have made no such studies.

  Inflation
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) what distinction he draws in measuring inflation and assessing its importance between demand-pull, cost-push, leading-sector and asset inflation; how he assesses the damage done by each form; and if he will publish figures giving the relative impact of each form of inflation for each year between 1980 and 1990;

  (2) pursuant to his answer of 4 July, Official Report, columns 13–14, if he regards as inflationary for the purposes of monetary and exchange rate policy the increase in the retail price of personal articles between August 1992 and May 1994 as shown in the retail prices index; what kind of articles were covered; and how much of the increase was due to increases in labour unit costs in production and distribution, respectively.

  Mr. Nelson
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide a substantive answer before the summer recess. I shall write to the hon. Member shortly and place a copy of the letter in the Library.

  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what evidence he has from the monetary experience of individual countries of a link between increases in the money supply and the rate of inflation; what assessment he has made of the direction of any causal link; and if he will publish his evidence.

  Mr. Nelson
  It is the role of monetary policy to deliver the Government's inflation objective. Monetary policy influences inflation with a lag; the assessment of prospects for inflation in one or two years' time is based on a range of indicators and other data. Two of the main indicators are narrow and broad measures of the money supply. MO has proved a reliable indicator, primarily to signal current trends in the economy rather than to warn of future changes. M4 and its components and counterparts, such as lending by banks and building societies, contain important information on monetary conditions. However, experience indicates that the relationship between these aggregates and future inflation cannot always be relied upon.

  Domestic Credit
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what considerations underlie his preference for the use of monetary targets instead of domestic credit as a measure of inflationary risk; and if he will publish a table showing the expansion of domestic credit each year since 1979 as a percentage of money gross domestic product along with the the actual increase in the measure of the money supply that he uses in measuring inflation and assessing its impact.
  437
  Mr. Nelson
  Monetary policy decisions are based on an assessment of a range of monetary indicators and other data, in particular the growth of narrow and broad money and movements in the exchange rate and asset prices.

  Domestic credit expansion statistics are no longer collected. Statistics covering MO, M4 and its counterparts are published monthly by the Bank of England in "Monetary Statistics"; a longer run of data is contained in the Bank of England "Statistical Abstract", part 2. Gross Domestic Product data are included in table 2 of "Economic Trends", June 1994.

  VAT Headquarters
  Mr. Parry
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many people are currently employed at the VAT headquarters building at the Queens dock, Liverpool.

  Mr. Kenneth Clarke
  Currently 752 staff are based in the building and 490 customs regional HQ and operational staff will move into the building in September 1994.

  The change of emphasis from a pure HQ building to a mixed HQ and operational building has created a need to provide space for facilities for public callers, VAT traders and shipping agents from September 1994.

  The space not required by customs has been re-allocated to the Charity Commission by Property Holdings, the managers of the Government's estate. The Charity Commission intends to move 236 staff into the building in November 1994.

  Company Profits
  Mr. Fisher
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what are the figures for retained after-tax profits by companies in each of the last 15 years.

  Mr. Nelson
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide a substantive answer before the summer recess. I shall write to the hon. Member shortly and place a copy of the letter in the Library.

  Wealth Creation
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what assessment he has made of the level of under-utilisation of the nation's wealth-creating capacity of the costs of this under-utilisation.

  Mr. Nelson
  The Government's latest assessment of the degree of spare capacity is set out in paragraphs 1.58 and 1.59 of the "Summer Economic Forecast 1994", published on 28 June. The summer forecast also predicted that real GDP growth of 2¾ per cent. this year would continue at the same rate next year, accompanied by low inflation.

  Overseas Residents (Assets)
  Mr. Meacher
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate he has for the value of United Kingdom assets owned by residents of(a) Jersey, (b) Isle of Man, (c) Guernsey and (d) Switzerland.

  Mr. Nelson
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide a substantive answer before the summer recess. I shall write to the hon. Member shortly and place a copy of the letter in the Library.

  Isle of Dogs
  Mr. Cousins
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether 100 per cent. capital allowances are still allowable on properties bought unused or within two years of use in the Isle of Dogs enterprise zone; and if he will estimate the revenue forgone in the 1993–94 financial year by the relaxations in enterprise allowances announced on 16 December 1991.

  Mr. Kenneth Clarke
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide a substantive answer before the summer recess. I shall write to the hon. Member shortly and place a copy of the letter in the Library.

  Prepared Meals
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what was the percentage change in the price of prepared meals between August 1992 and May 1994; and how much of the increase was due to the increases in common agricultural policy and other food prices and how much to an increase in unit labour costs.

  Mr. Nelson
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide a substantive answer before the summer recess. I shall write to the hon. Member shortly and place a copy of the letter in the Library.

  Companies' Capital Needs
  Mr. Fisher
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what proportion of the capital needs of companies have been met by(a) equity, (b) short-term bank finance, (c) term debt and (d) preference shares in each of the last 15 years.

  Mr. Nelson
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide a substantive answer before the summer recess. I shall write to the hon. Member shortly and place a copy of the letter in the Library.

  Rents
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what has been the change in rent as measured for the retail prices index since(a) January 1987 and (b) August 1992 distinguishing between local government, housing association, central Government and private rents.

  Mr. Nelson
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide a substantive answer before the summer recess. I shall write to the hon. Member shortly and place a copy of the letter in the Library.

  Industrial Output
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the Government's policy on increasing output in the principal import-competing and export industries; and what steps he is taking to achieve it.

  Mr. Nelson
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide a substantive answer before the summer recess. I shall write to the hon. Member shortly and place a copy of the letter in the Library.

  Companies (Rights Issues)
  Mr. Fisher
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what has been the amount of capital raised by companies in the form of rights issues in each of the last 15 years.
  439
  Mr. Nelson
  The amount raised in rights issued by companies quoted on the official list of the London stock exchange and on the unlisted securities market is as follows:

  Listed United Kingdom and Irish

  Year

  Number

  Proceeds (£ million)

  1979

  97

  974·267

  1980

  95

  1,059·785

  1981

  108

  1,971·974

  1982

  75

  901·707

  1983

  134

  2,007·043

  1984

  113

  1,674·182

  1985

  135

  4,054·753

  1986

  194

  5,618·673

  1987

  215

  8,452·950

  1988

  132

  5,745·810

  1989

  117

  4,604·129

  1990

  101

  4,890·901

  1991

  158

  10,133·388

  1992

  74

  4,134·339

  1993

  171

  11,377·609

  1994

  85

  4,715·607

  Unlisted Securities Market

  1980

  1

  1·456

  1981

  4

  9·296

  1982

  5

  12·132

  1983

  24

  81·231

  1984

  19

  66·394

  1985

  26

  127·450

  1986

  32

  109·646

  1987

  52

  404·114

  1988

  37

  277·757

  1989

  53

  316·397

  1990

  42

  348·833

  1991

  28

  139·360

  1992

  21

  94·078

  1993

  22

  70·686

  1994

  17

  102·162

  Source: London Stock Exchange

  Manufacturing
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) what was the share of manufacturing in gross domestic product in 1974, 1979, 1986, 1990 and at the latest available date; and what is his estimate of the level of the share needed to balance Britain's trade in manufactured goods;

  (2) by how much output in the metal, metal product and mechanical engineering industries has changed since 1986; and what is his assessment of the extent to which this was affected by changes in the exchange rate.

  Mr. Nelson
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide a substantive answer before the summer recess. I shall write to the hon. Member shortly and place a copy of the letter in the Library.

  Price Stability
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will list the economic benefits arising from making price stability the objective of monetary policy.

  Mr. Nelson
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide a substantive answer before the summer recess. I shall write to the hon. Member shortly and place a copy of the letter in the Library.

  Economic Growth
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what annual rate of economic growth he regards as unsustainable in considering the case for higher interest rates and a higher exchange rate.

  Mr. Nelson
  There is no particular rate of economic growth which would trigger off change in interest rates. It is the role of monetary policy to deliver low inflation. Monetary policy decisions are based on an assessment of a range of monetary indicators and other data, in particular the growth of narrow and broad money and movements in the exchange rate and assets prices. Estimates of the extent of spare capacity in the economy are also taken into account. The minutes of the monthly meetings of the Chancellor and the Governor of the Bank of England to discuss monetary policy are now published. The latest minutes of the 8 June meeting were published on 20 July.

  Shareholders
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the Government's policy on corporate government by shareholders; and if he will ensure that any proposals for the reform of stock exchange transactions do not prevent small private shareholders from holding share certificates and receiving automatically all documents relating to company business at the same time as they are received by corporate shareholders without incurring additional costs.

  Mr. Nelson
  The Government recognise the importance of shareholders being able to participate appropriately in the government of the companies in which they hold shares. The stock exchange introduced rolling settlement on Monday, 18 July. Initially, settlement will be 10 days after the transaction, with a possible reduction to five days in 1995. Some market makers have stated that they will offer settlement on non-standard terms to shareholders who keep their share certificates. This will enable those shareholders to keep their own names on the company register and hence to receive all documents relating to company business direct from the company at no cost and at the same time as other shareholders.

  Endangered Species
  Mr. Nigel Griffiths
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many seizures of parts of endangered animals were made in the United Kingdom during 1992 and 1993; and how many of these seizures were in connection with their use as components of traditional Chinese or far eastern medicine.

  Mr. Kenneth Clarke
  There were 345 seizures of such goods in 1992 and 178 in 1993 by HM Customs arid Excise. Two of the 1992 seizures and 12 of the 1993 seizures were of far eastern goods claimed to have medicinal properties.

  Coffee
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what has been the percentage change in the retail price of coffee since August 1992; and what further change may be expected as a result of the increase in the world price of coffee beans this year to date.
  441
  Mr. Nelson
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide a substantive answer before the summer recess. I shall write to the hon. Member shortly and place a copy of the letter in the Library.

  Earnings
  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, pursuant to his answer of 12 July if he will now give the information on the ratio of the direct cost of employment to take-home pay for each year since 1964 of a person on two-thirds or twice average earnings requested without pensions contributions.

  Mr. Kenneth Clarke
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide a substantive answer before the summer recess. I shall write to my hon. Friend shortly and place a copy of the letter in the Library.

NORTHERN IRELAND

  Intimidation, Newtownabbey
  Mr. Beggs
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many cases of intimidation have been reported in Newtownabbey in each of the last five years; and how many cases have resulted in forced change of address.

  Sir John Wheeler
  I shall write to the hon. Gentleman.

  Table 1 Proportionate religion breakdown of heads of household in Northern Ireland

  Households owning their own accommodation

  1 Households renting their accommodation from a public authority

  Households renting their accommodation from a housing assocation or charitable trust

  Total number

  330,198

  155,817

  8,405

  Population proportion

  1

  1

  1

  Roman Catholic number

  101,355

  59,686

  2,371

  Proportion

  0·3070

  0·3831

  0·2821

  Presbytarian number

  86,279

  28,962

  1,859

  Proportion

  0·2613

  0·1859

  0·2212

  Church of Ireland number

  61,019

  34,321

  1,961

  Proportion

  0·1848

  0·2203

  0·2333

  Methodist number

  14,751

  5,625

  486

  Proportion

  0·0447

  0·0361

  0·0578

  Other denominations number

  28,090

  10,379

  819

  Proportion

  0·0851

  0·0666

  0·0974

  None number

  15,766

  5,557

  385

  Proportion

  0·0477

  0·0357

  0·0458

  Not stated number

  22,938

  11,287

  524

  Proportion

  0·0695

  0·0724

  0·0623

  1 For example, Northern Ireland Housing Executive.

  Housing
  Mr. Hume
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on policy appraisal and fair treatment with regard to the application of relevant principles and procedures in the context of the housing policy review.

  Mr. Tim Smith
  The Government are committed to securing equality of opportunity and equity of treatment for all people in Northern Ireland through the elimination of unlawful discrimination and the promotion of fair treatment.

  The policy appraisal and fair treatment principles will be taken into account throughout the period of the housing policy review. Comments have been invited from a wide range of housing interests including constitutional political parties, public bodies, the voluntary sector and disabled groups.

  Existing policies and any new policies arising from the housing policy review will be subject to the PAFT principles and procedures.

  Mr. Hume
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what is the proportionate religious breakdown of heads of household in Northern Ireland who are(a) owner occupiers, (b) Housing Executive tenants and (c) housing association tenants; and what is the breakdown for the population as a whole.

  Sir John Wheeler
  The information requested is shown in the tables.
  443

  Table 2 Proportionate religion breakdown of Northern Ireland usually resident population

  Religion

  Number

  Proportion

  Total population

  1,577,836

  1·0000

  Roman Catholic

  605,639

  0·3838

  Presbyterian

  336,891

  0·2135

  Church of Ireland

  279,280

  0·1770

  Methodist

  59,517

  0·0377

  Other denomination

  122,448

  0·0776

  None

  59,234

  0·0375

  Not stated

  114,827

  0·0728

  Mr. Hume
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what proportions of(a) Housing Executive and (b) housing association tenants are in receipt of (i) housing benefit and (ii) maximum housing benefit.

  Mr. Ancram
  The proportion of Housing Executive tenants receiving housing benefit is 73 per cent. or 110,331; 55 per cent. or 82,660 receive maximum housing benefit.

  Information in respect of housing association tenants could be provided only at disproportionate cost.

  Agricultural Workers
  Dr. Strang
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what is his latest estimate of the total number of persons whose pay and conditions are covered by the Agricultural wages board in Northern Ireland.

  Mr. Ancram
  The latest estimate is approximately 9,265 persons.

  Dr. Strang
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what is his latest estimate of the number of persons whose pay and conditions are covered by the Agricultural Wages Board in Northern Ireland, for each county of Northern Ireland.

  Mr. Ancram
  The latest estimate per county is as follows:

  Numbers

  Antrim

  1,975

  Armagh

  1,206

  Down

  2,182

  Fermanagh

  644

  Londonderry

  1,453

  Tyrone

  1,805

  Department of the Environment
  Sir James Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement about possible executive ageny status for the works service of the Department of the Environment for Northern Ireland.

  Mr. Tim Smith
  The Government have decided that the works service of the Department of the Environment for Northern Ireland should be considered as a candidate for executive agency status, under the "next steps" initiative. A prior options study will be undertaken to establish whether agency status or other options would be appropriate. I would welcome comment from interested parties. Comments should be sent by 31 August 1994 to:444

  The Secretary

  Department of the Environment for Northern Ireland

  Works service

  Churchill house

  Victoria square

  Belfast

  BT1 4QW

  Valuation and Lands Agency
  Mr. Trimble
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what performance targets have been set for the Valuation and Lands Agency in 1994–95.

  Sir John Wheeler
  For 1994–95 the following key performance targets have been set for the agency:

  1. To complete 44,600 rating cases, equivalent to 27,000 work units.

  2. To complete 21,750 client service cases, equivalent to 23,500 work units.

  3. To achieve a productivity for case working valuers of 304 work units.

  To achieve a productivity for all staff of 160 work units.

  4. To achieve at least a 3·0 per cent. efficiency saving on the 1993–94 out-turn.

  To reduce the unit cost of casework by 3 per cent. in real terms.

  5. To issue 93 per cent. of certificates for rating cases subject to backdating within 12 months of the events giving rise to revisions of the valuation list.

  To achieve a standard in rating valuations such that 86 per cent. of those determined on appeal are within plus or minus 10 per cent. of the initial assessment.

  To complete 70 per cent. of rating appeals within six months of receipt.

  To complete 93 per cent. of a representative sample of client services casework within agreed time limits.

  Full details are set out in the agency's corporate and business plans, copies of which are being placed in the Library of the House.

  Childhood and Adolescent Psychiatry
  Mr. McCartney
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many beds designated for adolescent psychiatry there were in Northern Ireland in each year since 1979 and at the last date.

  Mr. Ancram
  [pursuant to his reply, 17 June 1994, column 678]: In Northern Ireland the average number of beds in the child and adolescent psychiatry specialty has been 20 in each year since 1981 to December 1993, with the exception of 1982 when the average was 21. Information on the child and adolescent psychiatry specialty was not collected prior to 1981.

  Mr. McCartney
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what are the most common forms of mental illness for children and teenagers; and what was their incidence in Northern Ireland in the period 1979 to 1993.

  Mr. Ancram
  [pursuant to his reply, 17 June 1994, columns 678–9]: The number of cases of adjustment reaction in 1992–3 was 60 and not 46 as originally stated.

  Health Service Staff
  Mr. Milburn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will give the latest figures and list for each of the last four years by region the number of(a) doctors, (b) nurses, (c) midwives, (d) health visitors, (e) administration and clerical staff and (f) managers.
  445
  Mr. Ancram
  The information requested is set out in the tables for the four health and social services boards, the National Board for Nursing and Midwifery and the Central Services Agency.

  Medical staff

  Nursing staff

  Midwifery staff

  Health visiting staff

  Combined administrative and clerical and managerial staff

  Year

  September

  March

  March

  March

  March

  Eastern health and social services board

  1990

  984

  9,388

  52

  125

  3,377

  1991

  955

  9,123

  55

  137

  3,474

  1992

  1,008

  8,739

  56

  192

  3,837

  1993

  n/a

  8,257

  59

  211

  3,981

  1994

  n/a

  7,361

  57

  181

  3,784

  Northern health and social services board

  1990

  215

  2,719

  44

  87

  1,242

  1991

  226

  2,675

  42

  86

  1,332

  1992

  236

  2,647

  34

  90

  1,435

  1993

  n/a

  2,574

  32

  89

  1,501

  1994

  n/a

  2,497

  38

  87

  1,570

  Western health and social services board

  1990

  190

  2,831

  54

  58

  891

  1991

  196

  2,795

  47

  74

  970

  1992

  199

  2,755

  46

  71

  980

  1993

  n/a

  2,711

  43

  66

  1,116

  1994

  n/a

  2,426

  44

  64

  1,072

  Southern health and social services board

  1990

  190

  2,665

  24

  78

  928

  1991

  193

  2,627

  12

  54

  975

  1992

  204

  2,534

  15

  81

  1,019

  1993

  n/a

  2,580

  24

  82

  1,113

  1994

  n/a

  2,391

  19

  86

  1,063

  National board for nursing and midwifery

  1990

  —

  297

  —

  —

  95

  1991

  —

  294

  —

  —

  101

  1992

  —

  302

  —

  —

  95

  1993

  —

  308

  —

  —

  112

  1994

  —

  284

  —

  —

  91

  Central services agency

  1990

  —

  —

  —

  —

  386

  1991

  —

  —

  —

  —

  413

  1992

  —

  —

  —

  —

  427

  1993

  —

  —

  —

  —

  413

  1994

  —

  —

  —

  —

  477

  Notes:

  1. Total whole time equivalent staffing employed in the Northern Ireland health and personal social services.

  2. Nursing staffing figures exclude nursing staff working in the midwifery and health visiting specialties.

  3. Project 2000 student nurses excluded from nurse staffing levels as they are not employees.

  4. Midwifery and health visiting staffing levels include all grades of nursing staff working in these specialties.

  5. Figures for 1993 and 1994 have not yet been collated.

  6. Figures include staff involved in patient-related duties eg. ward clerks.

ATTORNEY-GENERAL

  Small Businesses
  Mr. David Shaw
  To ask the Attorney-General if he will make a statement on the achievements of(a) his policies and (b) his Department in helping small businesses over the last 12 months as against the previous 12 months; if he will publish the performance indicators by which his Department monitors those achievements and the statistical results of such monitoring; and if he will set out his targets to help small businesses in the next year.
  446
  The Attorney-General
  The Government recognise the crucial role played by small firms in the United Kingdom economy. Government help small firms by keeping inflation and interest rates low and by reducing legislation and administrative burdens. They also provide direct assistance where appropriate and are currently establishing a network of business links to provide high-quality business support across the country.

  The Departments for which I am responsible are the legal secretariat to the Law Officers, the Treasury Solicitor's Department, the Crown Prosecution Service and the Serious Fraud Office. The services provided by the first two are largely internal to Government. The functions of the Crown Prosecution Service and the Serious Fraud Office relate purely to the criminal justice system.
  447
  As regards purchasing, all the Departments have regard to the desirability of encouraging small businesses in line with the policy of the Government as a whole. However, no specific programmes of support and assistance operate in the Departments for which I am responsible.

  Prosecutions
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Attorney-General on how many occasions in each of the last three years the Crown Prosecution Service has determined against a prosecution on reasons relating to the publicity of the case being sufficient punishment(a) partially and (b) wholly in (i) Wales and (ii) England.

  The Solicitor-General
  Each case is considered on its individual merits in accordance with the criteria laid down in the code for Crown prosecutors. The most common public interest factors affecting the decision whether to prosecute are set out in the code. Adverse publicity is not mentioned.

  In some limited circumstances, the consequences for the offender of the misconduct may be a relevant but not conclusive public interest factor in the decision. However, no statistics are maintained by the CPS as to the numbers of such cases.

  Ferranti/ISC
  Mr. Meacher
  To ask the Attorney-General (1) if he will make a statement on the factors which led to no charges being brought by the United Kingdom authorities against any individual following the fraud at Ferranti International Signal and Control. in 1989;

  (2) what action he took following the disclosure to his Department of the relationship between International Signal and Control and (a) South Africa, (b) Chile and (c) Iraq;

  (3) what action he took following the disclosure by the Ferranti chairman that his company had been defrauded in 1989; what action he took to secure the records of ISC in west London after the disclosure of fraud in 1989; and what action he has taken following the conclusion by the United States courts that the original flotation of ISC in London in 1982 was fraudulent.

  The Solicitor-General
  I refer the hon. Member to the written answer given to him yesterday by my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General. It is my policy not to divulge operational details relating to criminal investigations carried out by the Serious Fraud Office.

NATIONAL HERITAGE

  Broadcasting
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage what proposals he has to introduce a code of conduct for the members of the Broadcasting Council for Wales specifying the proper mode for making declarations of interest on areas where conflicts of interest arise.

  Mr. Sproat
  None. This is a matter for the BBC.

  Channel 5
  Mr. David Nicholson
  To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage when he expects to seek international clearance for the additional frequencies for Channel 5;448
  which areas not covered by the cleared frequency plan are expected to be covered by these additional frequencies arid using which channels; and when these frequencies have received clearance, what coverage Channel 5 should then have.

  Mr. Sproat
  International clearance for the additional frequencies for an analogue Channel 5 service will be sought by the Radiocommunications Agency on the basis of detailed proposals prepared by the Independent Television Commission. The Government believe that it should be possible to assign frequencies for Channel 5 to reach more than 60 per cent. of the population. The Government intend that a successful Channel 5 applicant would also have the option to simulcast the service digitally to around 80 per cent. or perhaps more than 90 per cent. of the population.

  Planning Guidance
  Mrs. Gorman
  To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage when the planning policy guidance note on historic buildings and conservation areas will be published.

  Mr. Sproat
  I expect PPG15, now entitled "Planning and the Historic Environment", to be published and issued during August.

  A list of the responses received to last year's consultation paper will be placed in the Library in due course.

  The detailed legal instruments relating to listed building and conservation area matters will not form part of the PPG, but will be issued later as soon as the necessary consultations have been completed.

  British Paralympic Association
  Mr. Alfred Morris
  To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage what public funding is given to the British Paralympic Association; what assessment he has made of whether disabled athletes are adequately consulted by its administrators and have opportunities, on the basis of ability, to participate in the administration of the Association; what consultation his Department has had with organisations of disabled people on the statement from the association on the absence of people with disabilities who are able to serve it in an administrative post; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Sproat
  A condition of the Sports Council's 1994–95 grant of £100,000 to the British Paralympic Association is that the BPA should not discriminate against anyone on the basis of their disability. The detailed implementation of this requirement is a matter for the BPA. I am aware that the association has an athletes' committee comprising disabled athletes which has voting status on the BPA's National Paralympic Committee. In addition, a number of other members of this committee and two of the BPA's directors are disabled.

  Ministerial Visits
  Mrs. Roche
  To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage how many overseas visits he and each of his Ministers have made between 1 January and 30 June; during how many he, or each of his Ministers, participated
  449
  in fundraising activities for the Conservative party; and if he will name the Ministers and the countries in which these activities took place.

  Mr. Dorrell
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide an answer before the summer recess. I shall therefore write to the hon. Member and place a copy of the letter in the Library.

  Canada Geese
  Mr. Tony Banks
  To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage how many Canada geese have been culled in St. James's park in the last two years; how they were culled; by whom and at what time of the day; and what happened to the carcases.

  Mr. Sproat
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide an answer before the summer recess. I shall therefore write to the hon. Member and place a copy of the letter in the Library.

  Kensington Palace
  Mr. Alan Williams
  To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage, pursuant to his answer of 14 July 1994,Official Report, column 705, on accommodation for Mr. Peat at Kensington palace, who made the decision to allocate specific accommodation to Mr. Peat and to his deputy; if fees were incurred for each category of expenditure; under which percentage the reduction of salary is assessed in each case and on what rate these levels were set; what consideratoin led to the allocation of identical sums for different sized apartments; which other officials of the royal household have accommodation in this section of Kensington palace; and if the salaries of Mr. Peat and his deputy are charged against grant-in-aid.

  Mr. Sproat
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide an answer before the summer recess. I shall therefore write to the right hon. Member and place a copy of the letter in the Library.

HOUSE OF COMMONS

  Small Businesses
  Mr. David Shaw
  To ask the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed, as representing the House of Commons Commission if he will make a statement on the achievements of the Commission in helping small businesses over the last 12 months as against the previous 12 months; if he will publish the performance indicators by which the Commission monitors those achievements and the statistical results of such monitoring; and if he will set out his targets to help small businesses in the next year.

  Mr. Beith
  The House of Commons Commission has a policy of competitive tendering which is broadly in line with that of the civil service. Any company, irrespective of size, capable of meeting the stated requirements is free to put in a tender for work or for the provision of goods and services required by the House.

  The House does not keep records of the size of supplier companies.

  Clerk's Department
  Mr. Steen
  To ask the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed, representing the House of Commons Commission, what is the current salary and grade of officers of the House serving the five domestic Committees set up by Standing Order No. 125; how many Clerks there are in the Department of the Clerk of the House; and what is the total annual salary bill.

  Mr. Beith
  Three officers serve the five domestic Committees, one grade 4 and two grade 7. Their salaries total £131,900 p.a. There are 61 Clerks in the Department of the Clerk of the House. The total annual salary bill for the Clerk's Department, including all support staff but excluding the Vote Office, was £5·1 million for last year.

  Exhibitions
  Mr. Mans
  To ask the Chairman of the Administration Committee if he has considered an application for an exhibition relating to the Open university to be displayed in the Upper Waiting Hall.

  Mr. Michael J. Martin
  I understand that, under procedures agreed by the Administration Committee, arrangements have been made for the exhibition to be held in the Upper Waiting Hall from Monday 24 October to Friday 28 October.

  Mr. Knapman
  To ask the Chairman of the Administration Committee if he has considered an application for an exhibition relating to the Biotechnology and Biological Sciences Research Council to be displayed in the Upper Waiting Hall.

  Mr. Michael J. Martin
  I understand that, under procedures agreed by the Administration Committee, arrangements have been made for the exhibition to be held in the Upper Waiting Hall from Monday 19 December to Friday 23 December.

ENVIRONMENT

  Sabrina Bridge, Worcester
  Mr. Luff
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will investigate the procedures used by Worcester city council in(a) deciding to construct and (b) offering the tender for the new cycle and footbridge over the River Severn, now known as the Sabrina bridge; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Curry
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Tree Preservation
  Mr. Colvin
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will publish his plans for a review of law regarding tree preservation orders; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Atkins
  My Department and the Welsh Office issued a consultation paper "Review of Tree Preservation Policies and Legislation", in December 1990, setting out the Government's proposals for reforming the law relating to tree preservation orders in England and Wales. Some 312 responses were received from a broad range of
  451
  interests including local authorities, environment and amenity groups, farmers and landowners, arboriculturists, utility companies, and members of the public. Copies have been placed in my Department's library.

  The continued use of the tree preservation order as a means of protecting trees, groups of trees and woodlands in the interests of amenity was supported by most respondents. The Government agree that the system has proved its worth over the years, and have decided that local authorities' present powers to make tree preservation orders in respect of trees and woodlands would be retained. We have considered calls from some respondents who consider that tree preservation orders should provide not only for the protection of trees but for their management. The Government recognise the importance of encouraging the proper management of trees, particularly in woodlands but does not consider that the present system precludes local authorities from promoting the continued management of protected trees in their areas. We therefore do not think that it is necessary to impose new requirements either on tree owners or local authorities.

  The Government's conclusions, which I am laying before the House today, set out three broad aims.

  Our first aim is to streamline the administration of the system and bring flexibility to the way it is operated. The present form of tree preservation order, which is long and complex, would be replaced by a shorter, simpler document. The present exemption to deal with protected trees which cause a nuisance would be clarified; and codes of practice would be introduced to promote the sensitive management of trees by statutory undertakers and utility companies in consultation with local authorities. Local authorities would be given discretion in determining the location of trees which are planted to replace protected trees; and the present requirement to replace protected trees which have been removed in woodlands would be simplified.

  Our second aim is to ensure that the system continues to recognise the interests of the tree owner. Rights to compensation for loss or damage incurred as a result of local authorities' decisions on applications to carry out works to protected trees would be clarified. A local authority's ability to make tree preservation orders over areas of trees other than in woodlands would be limited, and provision would be made for existing area orders to lapse after a suitable transitional period. Furthermore, in the light of responses to the consultation paper, we have decided against bringing forward proposals to repeal the tree owner's right to object to the making of a tree preservation order, and against giving local authorities new powers to require the tree owner to carry out, and pay for, remedial works to protected trees.

  The Government's third aim is to ensure that local authorities have adequate powers to bring effective action against abusers of the system. The present offence of "wilful" destruction or damage of protected trees would be replaced by an offence based on recklessness. We would clarify that a person who "causes or permits" the unauthorised destruction or damage of protected trees is also guilty of the offence. The present exemption which allows the cutting down of dying trees which are the subject of tree preservation orders would be repealed, and although the exemption to carry out work on protected trees which have become dangerous would be retained, this would be subject to a new requirement to show that the work was limited to the minimum measures necessary. A
  452
  new offence for failing to comply with a tree replacement notice would also be created. However, new powers would not be introduced enabling local authorities to regulate the planting and maintenance of replacement trees.

  The Government believe that these measures would improve the tree preservation order system in a way that would meet the public's desire for effective measures to protect key trees and woodlands in the interests of amenity, without placing unnecessary restrictions on the rights of the citizen.

  A paper setting out each of the Government's conclusions in more detail, and a list of all those who responded to the consultation paper, have been placed in the Library of the House. The current pressures on the parliamentary timetable mean that there is no prospect in the immediate future of introducing the necessary legislation to enact these changes. In the interim therefore the current system will be retained.

  Small Businesses
  Mr. David Shaw
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement on the achievements of(a) his policies and (b) his Department in helping small businesses over the last 12 months as against the previous 12 months; if he will publish the performance indicators by which his Department monitors those achievements and the statistical results of such monitoring; and if he will set out his targets to help small businesses in the next year.

  Mr. Curry
  The Government recognise the crucial role played by small firms in the United Kingdom economy. Government help small firms by keeping inflation and interest rates low and by reducing legislation arid administrative burdens. They also provide direct assistance where appropriate and are currently establishing a network of business links to provide high-quality business support across the country.

  The Government brought together in April the regional offices of four Departments—Environment, Trade arid Industry, Transport and Employment—to form the Government offices for the regions. These will strengthen the co-ordination of programmes and policies locally and ensure that businesses have one port of call.

  The Government's regeneration initiatives are being simplified by the introduction of the single regeneration budget which will benefit small firms by encouraging sustainable economic growth by improving the competitiveness of the local economy. We will continue under the SRB to monitor existing programmes, including measures relevant to businesses, and to publish results.

  English Partnerships has been established and is tackling the problems of urban regeneration in co-operation with the private sector and other agencies.

  The Rural Development Commission, sponsored by my Department, continues to provide advice and other assistance to small businesses in rural areas. On 14 February the Government announced a new competition, rural challenge, to be adminstered by the RDC. This will award six prizes of £1 million to innovative rural development projects. These will benefit small businesses by giving a boost to social and economic development in our smaller towns and villages.

  The Department introduced the Non-Domestic Rating Act 1993 to honour the Chancellor of the Exchequer's March 1993 Budget pledge to freeze rate rises for

  453
  businesses in real terms under the non-domestic rating transitional arrangements for the second year running. Following the November 1993 Budget, the Non-Domestic Rating Act 1994 then halved transitional rate rises for 1994–95, cutting them from 15 per cent. to 7·5 per cent. in real terms for small businesses. Small businesses with mixed domestic and business premises had their increases frozen for a third year.

  In partnership with the Department of Trade and Industry, we have set up a review into the organisation of enforcement functions of local authorities with the aim of minimising the costs to business as well as reducing inconsistencies in enforcement. We expect to publish the results later this year.

  My Department's Energy Efficiency Office continues to provide grants under the energy management assistance scheme to help smaller businesses reduce their energy costs. Over the past 12 months almost 3,500 grants, averaging about £450 each, have been paid to small manufacturing and commercial enterprises.

  My Department has continued to work with DTI to support a programme designed to raise awareness of environmental issues among small firms and give them practical help and guidance on improving their environmental performance. This is in response to a recommendation from our advisory committee on business and the environment. Over the past 12 months we have made progress on both aspects of this programme—support for local green business clubs and for sectoral projects. Four further green business clubs have been launched with our support—in Leeds, Newcastle, Southampton and the London borough of Sutton. My Department has commissioned external research to evaluate how effective the clubs are in improving the environmental performance of small businesses in their locality. We have also started to support an initiative in the leather industry, working in partnership with the British Leather Confederation, to raise awareness and promulgate best practice among the many small businesses in that sector. Over the next year we will continue to fund this programme and to monitor the impact that it has on environmental awareness, attitudes and behaviour among small firms.

  In the competitiveness White Paper my Department committed itself to working with the DTI to review the procedures for alerting small businesses to new environmental regulations and for explaining them. We will take this commitment forward over the next 12 months.

  We have laid regulations to transfer some processes from the much more wide-ranging integrated pollution control system to local authority air pollution control and to exempt certain processes from control altogether.

  Regulations were amended in October 1993 to allow a single IPC authorisation to cover an entire chemical process, from receipt of raw materials, via production of intermediates, to dispatch of finished products. The amended regulations also allow operators of what would normally be seen as more than one process to function with a single authorisation if they are producing less than 250 tons of product per year.

  In July 1993 my Department issued a consultation paper on proposals to repeal controls exercised by local authorities to approve the design and fitting of arrestment
  454
  plant on small furnaces. We intend to implement the repeal by means of the general deregulation power in the Deregulation and Contracting Out Bill, if enacted.

  In March this year, we announced that in view of environmental improvements, we had re-examined proposals for regulations on the sale and sulphur content of domestic fuels, and did not intend to introduce further controls.

  We have introduced a new definition of waste and issued guidance on its interpretation which is deregulatory in effect. We have helped small businesses by substantially increasing from 1 May 1994 the number of exemptions from waste management licensing.

  My Department, in conjunction with DTI, has worked with industry to set up schemes for managing supplies of halons and CFC refrigerants following phase-out. Small businesses will therefore continue to have access to used or recycled substances to keep equipment running, thereby reducing the short-term costs of phase-out.

  During the last year we have consulted widely on a number of proposals related to water pollution controls, water abstraction and reservoirs, with a view to deregulating where possible. In consulting we were careful to ensure that the interests of small businesses were adequately represented.

  In our role as sponsors of the construction industry, we have encouraged the smaller trade associations to affiliate to larger unbrella bodies so as to improve communication between the industry and the Department. Information flow has improved through a new regular series of meetings and a relaunch of our magazine. The Latham review of procurement gave particular attention to the needs of small contractors and subcontractors to be paid promptly. We aim to minimise the burden on small firms on form filling, provide a statistical feedback as an aid to planning and encourage user-friendly research results. In addition, export support has been significantly increased over the past year to provide assistance to companies of all sizes.

  In December 1993, my Department issued a consultation paper "Streamlining Planning" which proposed relaxing several planning controls which would benefit small firms. We will be announcing the outcome of that consultation shortly. The Planning Inspectorate agency has further improved its performance in dealing with appeals more promptly, to the advantage of all businesses.

  My Department monitors all its programmes and publishes details of a wide range of outputs and targets in its annual report.

  Environment Agency
  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement on progress made in the establishment of an Environment Agency since 15 July 1992; and how its proposed structure now differs from that set out in press release 499/92.

  Mr. Atkins
  I refer the hon. Member to the reply given by my right hon. Friend yesterday to my hon. Friend the Member for the City of Chester (Mr. Brandreth). The structure we propose for the Environment Agency for England and Wales is that set out in the press notice issued in July 1992: the agency will be responsible for the current functions of the National Rivers Authority, Her Majesty's inspectorate of pollution, and the waste regulation authorities. It will bring these responsibilities together in a
  455
  single national body, providing the opportunity for more coherent and integrated environmental protection and for a more streamlined service to industry and the public.

  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what meetings he has held since 15 July 1992 with(a) individual local authorities and (b) representative associations of local authorities to ensure that close liaison is achieved and maintained between his Department and local authorities over the planning arrangements for the Environment Agency.

  Mr. Atkins
  My right hon. Friend has held no meetings with individual local authorities or with local authority associations exclusively on the subject of the Environment Agency. Officials in my Department have held regular meetings since October 1992 with representatives of the local authority associations to discuss the proposed arrangements for the agency.

  Non-domestic Rates
  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what is the total received in national non-domestic rates in each year since its inception from each local authority; and what corresponding payment has been paid to each local authority on the same basis.

  Mr. Curry
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Mr. Gale
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment under what statutes or regulations bailiffs acting on behalf of local authorities seeking to enforce payment of uniform business rates are permitted to seize from(a) limited and (b) unlimited liability companies goods essential to the conduct of their lawful business.

  Mr. Curry
  The regulations which govern the levying of distress to cover non-payment of liability for non-domestic rates are the Non-Domestic Rating (Collection and Enforcement) (Local Lists) Regulations 1989, S.I. 1989 No. 1058, as amended by the Non-Domestic Rating (Collection and Enforcement) (Amendment and Miscellaneous Provision) Regulations 1993, S.I. 1993, No. 774. These regulations are made under paragraphs 1 to 4 of schedule 9 to the Local Government Finance Act 1988. There were equivalent provisions under the General Rate Act 1967.

  Coal Industry Act 1994
  Ms Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what assessment he has made of the implications of the environmental liabilities arising out of the Coal Industry Act 1994 on the nature conservation interest of special areas of conservation and special protection areas; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Atkins
  Section 53 of the Act imposes an environmental duty on operators to have due regard to a site's natural beauty, flora and fauna, geological and physiographical interest. In respect of planning consents for coal extraction, under the Coal Industry Act 1994, the new privately owned companies will have to comply with the requirements of European law as transposed by the Conservation (Nature Conservation &c) Regulations 1994 currently before Parliament.

  Water Industry (EC Directives)
  Mr. Shersby
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make an estimate of the extent to which EC directives on water quality have resulted in the increased cost of water to domestic consumers; what action he is taking to reduce obligations placed on water companies to raise standards; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Atkins
  The estimated costs of EC directives together with other obligations have been included in the current review of price limits by the Director General of Water Services. He will be announcing revised price limits on 28 July. The Government have sought to clarify the obligations of the water companies so that in general there is no need to go further than the Community requirements.

  Air Quality
  Ms Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment which population centres of over 100,000 currently have no national air pollution monitoring station.

  Mr. Atkins
  The following urban areas with a population of over 100,000, as defined in "Key Statistics for Urban Areas: Great Britain: Census 1981" produced by the Office of Population Censuses and Surveys and the Registrar General, Scotland, have no national air pollution monitoring stations:

  High Wycombe

  Ipswich

  Blackburn/Darwen

  Reading

  Aldershot

  Bournemouth

  Southend

  Ms Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what is the total planned number of enhanced urban network monitoring stations for the United Kingdom; and if he will give details of future proposed sites.

  Mr. Atkins
  The Government intend to expand the enhanced urban monitoring network from 12 to 24 sites by 1997. The Department has also issued a discussion paper on integrating local authority monitoring sites into the national network. Advice on siting will be obtained from the quality of urban air review group.

  Ms Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what assessment he has made of air pollution in Stoke-on-Trent; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Atkins
  For the years 1992–93 and 1993–94 the European Community directive (80/779/EEC) limit values for SO2 and smoke was not exceeded in Stoke-on-Trent. The directive guide values for these pollutants was exceeded in both years. The data is as follows:

  Time and Limit

  Limit values

  SO2

  Annual median

  both year (50 µgm-3)

  below limit of 80 µgm-3

  Annual 98 percentile

  both years (107 µgm-3 and 108 µgm-3)

  below limit value of 250 µgm-3

  Smoke

  457

  Time and Limit

  Annual median

  both years (14 µgm-3)

  below limit of 68 µgm-3

  Annual 98 percentile

  both years (58 µgm-3 and 46 µgm-3)

  below limit of 213 µgm-3

  Guide values

  SO2

  Annual mean

  both years (53 and 52 µgm-3)

  above guide of 40 µgm-3

  Max day

  max day both years (125 and 135 µgm-3)

  above guide value of 100 µgm-3

  Smoke

  Annual mean

  both years (17 and 16 µgm-3)

  below guide of 34 µgm-3

  Max day

  max day both years (98 and 84 µgm-3

  above guide value of 85 µgm-3

  Ms Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what action he now proposes in response to the European framework directive on ambient air quality management.

  Mr. Atkins
  The European Commission has recently adopted a proposal for a framework directive on ambient air quality assessment and management. My Department will follow the normal procedures for informing Parliament of proposed European legislation as soon as it is notified of the contents of the proposal. The proposal will come for discussion in the European Council in due course, and the United Kingdom will participate fully in those discussions.

  Ms Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what plans he has to extend the national air pollution monitoring network to include suburban areas.

  Mr. Atkins
  The Department is advised on siting of air pollution monitors in urban areas by the quality of urban air review group and for ozone by the photochemical oxidants review group. The latter is currently considering the siting of monitors. The Department has issued a discussion paper on integrating local authority monitoring sites into the national network and has already incorporated a suburban site in east London into the network.

  Asbestos
  Mr. Cox
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what are the criteria followed by his Department in approving industrial housing developments on land which is known to be contaminated by asbestos deposits; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Atkins
  All planning applications are considered on their merits. Where land contamination is involved, it can be a material planning consideration. In such cases, before granting planning permission, local planning authorities should be satisfied that the development proposals include work to deal with any unacceptable risks to health or the environment and make the site suitable for its intended use.

  Planning advice for development on contaminated land is contained in planning policy guidance note 23 "Planning and Pollution Control", published earlier this month.

  Advice on the investigation, assessment and treatment of asbestos-contaminated sites is provided by the
  458
  inter-departmental committee on the redevelopment of contaminated land guidance note 64/85, 2nd edition October 1990, "Asbestos on Contaminated Land".

  Sites of Special Scientific Interest
  Ms Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will list(a) the sites of special scientific interest which have been identified for a road building or road widening programme and (b) those sites in respect of which he has (i) issued a Nature Conservation Order under section 29 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 or (ii) made an order for the compulsory purchase of the land in the last two years.

  Mr. Atkins
  Comprehensive information about road building or widening programnmes which might affect SSSIs is not held centrally and could not be obtained except at disproportionate cost. The following nature conservation orders have been made in the last two years:

  Site

  Date made

  Sawston Hall Meadows (Cambridgeshire) 1992

  12 November 1992

  Kernick and Ottery Meadows (Cornwall) 1993

  27 April 1993

  Lindisfarne (Northumberland) 1993

  15 October 1993

  Lingwood Meadows (Suffolk) 1994

  8 February 1994

  No compulsory purchase orders under part II of the 1981 Act have been made in the last two years.

  National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act
  Ms Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what plans he has to extend powers under section 20 of the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949.

  Mr. Atkins
  Regulation 28 of the Conservation of Natural Habitats Regulations 1994, recently laid before the House, enables the appropriate nature conservation body to make byelaws for the protection of important European sites under section 20 of the 1949 Act. My right hon. Friend has no plans to extend these powers.

  Landfill Disposal
  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what representations he has had from the construction industry in regard to applicability of the Kelly table on contaminated soil classification to licensed landfill disposal.

  Mr. Atkins
  None. The Department is currently preparing updated guidance on acceptability of wastes, including contaminated soils, for licensed landfill disposal and will be consulting industry on the guidance.

  Nitric Acid
  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment (1) what information has been received by Her Majesty's Government from the United States Department of Energy that constitutes an environmental impact assessment on nitric acid for import from the Hanford Purex facility at Washington state;

  (2) what requirements exist for the conducting of an environmental impact assessment on consignments of contaminated nitric acid imported into the United Kingdom from the United States.
  459
  Mr. Atkins
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Clearance Programmes (Accommodation)
  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what plans he has to ensure that clearance programmes do not result in temporary accommodation for tenants while new starts are completed; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Curry
  None. The rehousing of those displaced by clearance is a matter for local authorities and the individuals concerned.

  Housing
  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment (1) what plans he has to produce an interim report on housing association programmes for the next three years; what are the available indicators for forecasting the effects of cuts in housing association grants; and if he will make a statement;

  (2) if he plans to produce an interim report on the Housing Corporation's committed development programme for the next three years; what curtailments of this programme are projected following his Department's reduction in funding for this year; what effects the reduction in the subsequent year has been projected to have; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Curry
  The Housing Corporation published details of its approved development programme for the period 1994–95 to 1996–97 in December 1993. This took account of the outcome of last November's unified Budget, and set out the number of new lettings that it expected housing associations to be able to provide over the period together with the grants which the corporation expected to approve.

  The Housing Corporation reviews housing association grant rates each year. The review considers changes in a range of public and private sector indicators of future earnings, construction costs, inflation and interest rates, in order to determine the likely impact of changes in HAG rates on rents, benefit dependency and the availability of private finance. I am currently considering the findings of the latest review and hope to announce decisions on the 1995–96 HAG rates shortly.

  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment (1) what plans he has to ensure sufficient affordable housing in the rented sector is available; and if he will make a statement;

  (2) what new plans he has to ensure sufficient housing is available to allow occupants the freedom to choose between buying or renting properties; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Curry
  My Department's plans are set out in the annual report, Cm. 2507. The Housing Corporation is investing some £1·5 billion this year, enabling housing associations, the main providers of new social housing, to provide over 58,000 homes in 1994–95. The corporation now estimates a total output of around 179,000 homes over the three years 1992–93 to 1994–95. This is some 26,000 more than we promised in 1992.

  We have encouraged local authorities to make the most effective use of the council housing stock by keeping the number of empty dwellings to a minimum. We are also encouraging landlords to bring empty private sector
  460
  properties back into use, for example, by means of grants to bring them up to standard and through the housing associations as managing agents—HAMA—scheme which aims to bring 10,000 units back into use by the end of 1995–96. To build on the existing management strengths of HAMA, an additional £5 million has been made available in 1994–95, under the HAMA-plus scheme, for capital works to bring empty private sector properties back up to standard. Housing benefit is available to those who have difficulty in meeting the full rent themselves.

  We are committed to giving tenants the opportunity to become home owners. The right to buy has brought home ownership to nearly 1.5 million families in Great Britain and these opportunities have been broadened by rent to mortgage. Local authority cash incentive schemes and the Housing Corporation's tenants' incentive scheme have helped a further 21,000 people into their own homes, while releasing their existing accommodation for reletting to those in need. In addition, do-it-yourself shared ownership and other low-cost home ownership initiatives run by housing associations, are opening up home ownership opportunities where none previously existed.

  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what plans he has to offset any reductions in the Housing Corporation's programme with increases in the private sector over the next three years.

  Mr. Curry
  My Department's plans are set out in its 1994 annual report, Cm. 2507.

  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what he now forecasts(a) public sector, (b) Housing Association and (c) Housing Corporation housing starts to be for each of the next three years; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Curry
  The Department does not prepare forecasts of new house-building starts. The Housing Corporation does not build houses. In its approved development programme, published in December 1993, the Housing Corporation expected to approve grants to housing associations for some 96,600 new homes to be provided through new build, renovation or the purchase of existing dwellings, across the period 1994–95 to 1996–97.

  Mr. Jim Cunningham
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what proportion of housing is unfit in(a) Coventry, (b) the west midlands and (c) nationally.

  Mr. Curry
  [holding answer 20 July 1994]: Local authorities are requested to provide figures on their annual housing investment programme returns of dwellings in their area which are unfit. Coventry's 1993 HIP1 return did not provide a total for unfit dwellings, but its 1992 HIP1 showed 13 per cent. dwellings as unfit.

  There are doubts about the quality of the data provided by some local authorities on numbers of unfit dwellings, and the 1991 English house condition survey provides a more reliable source for national and regional estimates. The EHCS shows that 5·6 per cent. of dwellings in the West Midlands were unfit and 7·6 per cent. in England.

  Single Regeneration Budget
  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what representations he has received about single regeneration budgets; and if he will make a statement.
  461
  Mr. Curry
  Government offices for the regions and Government Departments have received several hundred responses and comments about the single regeneration budget including those made following consultation on the draft bidding guidance for the budget.

  Mr. Burden
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment (1) what measures are being taken to protect the existing spending commitments for current estate action schemes under the new bidding regime of the single regeneration budget;

  (2) what measures are being taken to protect the existing spending commitments of the urban programme under the new bidding regime of the single regeneration budget;

  (3) what measures are being taken to protect existing spending commitments for the inner city task forces under the new bidding regime of the single regeneration budget;

  (4) what measures are being taken to protect existing spending commitments of city action teams under the new bidding regime of the single regeneration budget.

  Mr. Curry
  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment told the House on 4 November 1993,Official Report, column 515, that continuing commitments under the 20 programmes which have been combined in the single regeneration budget will be met. These programmes include estate action, the urban programme, inner-city task forces and city action teams.

  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment when he expects to announce the successful bids under the single regeneration budget scheme.

  Mr. Curry
  I hope to be able to announce successful bids in early January 1995.

  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what are the housing implications for local authorities of the single regeneration budget.

  Mr. Curry
  The objectives of the single regeneration budget include the improvement of housing through physical improvements, greater choice and better management and maintenance. The budget will support this objective through meeting continuing commitments on housing-related programmes which have been combined in the Budget. These programmes include estate action, which is implemented by local authorities. The budget may also support housing measures which local authorities and their partners put forward for support in 1995–96 and later years through the current competitive bidding round for uncommitted budget resources.

  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what factors and charges in the 1991 index of local conditions are relevant to the single regeneration budget; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Curry
  The relevance of the index of local conditions to the single regeneration budget is set out in paragraph 35 of the bidding guidance for the budget, issued on 14 April 1994, copies of which are in the Library of the House.

  Mr. Frank Field
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what has been the total amount of urban and regeneration expenditure, excluding urban programme, listed for each separate urban programme area for each year since 1980–81 at(a) cash prices and (b) current prices.
  462
  Mr. Curry
  Information in the form requested for all programmes now combined in the single regeneration budget could be provided only at disproportionate cost as, for most of these programmes, it has not been the practice to collect information on a local authority district basis.

  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how many of the outline bids at each regional office in respect of the single regeneration budget are now being worked up to be considered at the next stage of the process; and if he will make a statement on the progress to date.

  Mr. Curry
  It is for individual bidders to decide whether to work up bids to be submitted by 7 September. But, on the basis of existing information, about half of those who have expressed an interest in bidding are expected to work up their outline proposals for submission to the Government offices for the regions.

  Care in the Community
  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what provision has been made and what representations he has received for the housing implications of the care in the community programme for local authorities; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Curry
  My Department has held a number of meetings with the local authority associations to discuss housing issues arising from the implementation of community care policies. Community care does not in itself create any new category of entitlement to housing, and we expect its impact on housing demand to be gradual and progressive. It is for local authorities to consider the resource implications of community care and to prepare housing strategies to meet housing needs in their areas.

  Water Charges
  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what representations he has received on the subject of the future of water charges(a) in relation to meters, (b) using the council tax banding system and (c) exemptions for churches and other religious buildings; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Atkins
  Representations are received by the Department from time to time about alternative methods of charging for water, including the use of meters and council tax valuation bands. No representations have been received about exempting churches and other religious buildings from water charges. It is for each water company to determine the basis for charging in its area.

  Council Tax
  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment (1) how many appeals have been received regarding council tax bands; how many succeeded; how many have failed; and how many were outstanding at the latest date for which he has information;

  (2) what information he has on the success or failure rate of appeals against council tax banding to the latest date for which figures are available, both in number and percentage terms.

  Mr. Curry
  The latest available figures are for the end of June. Some 919,025 proposals had been made in respect
  463
  of dwellings in England. 412,185 had been settled, of which some 330,000—36 per cent.—resulted in a change of handing, leaving 506,840 outstanding.

  Planning Applications (Green Belt)
  Mr. Peter Ainsworth
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will set out the reasons for normally allowing costs to be awarded against the applicant in planning applications rejected by both the local planning authority and also at appeal but not usually in cases where a planning application involves green belt land where the application is called in; and what plans he has to change this policy.

  Mr. Curry
  I am writing to my hon. Friend.

  Mr. Peter Ainsworth
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement on the importance to Her Majesty's Government's policy of sustainable development of protecting green belt land from further development.

  Mr. Curry
  Paragraph 2·10 of the draft revision of the proposed new planning policy guidance note 2 on green belts, which was issued for public consultation on 21 February, proposes that when drawing green belt boundaries in development plans local planning authorities should take account of the need to promote sustainable patterns of development. There is a presumption against inappropriate development within a green belt.

  We are analysing the responses made to the PPG2 consultation document.

  Mr. Peter Ainsworth
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what agencies within his Department oversee the management and development control of green belt land.

  Mr. Curry
  The Secretary of State carries out his planning functions relating to the control of development in green belts with assistance from his planning policy division, Government offices in the regions, arid the planning inspectorate.

  Neighbourhood Councils
  Mr. Mackinlay
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what duty exists for local authorities to ensure that the boundaries of any neighbourhood council of committees which they may constitute, as part of a programme of devolving their powers to localities and communities, are determined fairly and impartially.

  Mr. Curry
  It is for the individual local authorities to decide the boundaries of any neighbourhood council or committee which they establish. But the membership of any committee or sub-committee of a local authority to which the authority delegates its powers must, under the provisions of section 15 of the Housing and Local Government Act 1989, reflect the overall political balance of the authority.

  Also, all councillors must sign a declaration of acceptance of office which includes an undertaking that they will be guided by the national code of local government conduct in the performance of their duties as councillors. Among other things, the code states that a councillors overriding duty is to the whole local community and that they have a special duty to their constituents including those who did not vote for them.

  First-time Buyers
  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what plans he has to introduce new incentives to first-time buyers to alleviate problems in this section of the market; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Curry
  First-time buyers and other home purchasers will continue to benefit from the range of Government policies which have brought about substantial falls in interest rates and have made home ownership more affordable than for many years.

  Planning Process
  Mr. Peter Ainsworth
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what is his policy regarding the need to disclose investment plans of applicants in the planning process to ensure the viability of the scheme under consideration.

  Mr. Curry
  The Government do not have a policy regarding the investment plans of planning applicants. Planning applications should be considered only on their land-use planning merits. The viability of a proposed scheme would be a commercial decision for the developer.

  Mr. Peter Ainsworth
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what steps his inspectors take at public inquiries to ensure that time and resources are not wasted by the unpreparedness of witnesses; and what steps are taken to recover costs where such unpreparedness results in important information being unavailable to the inquiry.

  Mr. Curry
  Responsibility for the subject of this question has been delegated to the Planning Inspectorate executive agency under its chief executive and chief planning inspector, Mr. H. Stephen Crow. I have asked him to arrange for a reply to be given.

  Letter from H. S. Crow to Mr. Peter Ainsworth, dated 20 July 1994:
  The Secretary of State for the Environment has asked me to reply to your Question about steps taken by inspectors to ensure that time is not wasted at public inquiries by the unpreparedness of witnesses; and what steps are taken to recover costs where such unpreparedness results in important information being unavailable to the inquiry.
  Depending on whether the decision on the case is to be taken by the Secretary of State or the Inspector, the procedure at planning inquiries is governed by The Town and Country Planning (Inquiries Procedure) Rules 1992 or The Town and Country Planning (Determination by Inspectors) (Inquiries Procedure) Rules 1992 [Statutory Instruments 1992 Nos. 2038 and 2039 respectively]. Both sets of Rules require proofs of evidence and summaries to be submitted not later than three weeks before the date fixed for the inquiry or by a date programmed by the Inspector. The aim is to make the inquiry process as efficient and effective as possible, whilst impairing neither the fairness nor the impartiality of the proceedings, nor the ability of participants to make representations which are relevant to the decision (paragraphs 5–8 of DoE Circular 24/92).
  If a person who proposes to give evidence by reading a proof of evidence has not submitted that proof in advance, the Inspector at the inquiry has to consider, in the light of any submissions by other parties, what course of action would be in the public interest. Options could include having the witness read out the full proof, adjourning the inquiry to allow everyone to study the proof, and re-programming the witness to appear later. It is for the Inspector alone to decide what course to take.
  Whether or not he or she has submitted a proof of evidence, a witness is sometimes unable to answer a question during

  465
  cross-examination. If the information is important, the Inspector may ask the witness to obtain it and return to answer the question later. Meanwhile the inquiry will continue. Alternatively the Inspector may adjourn the inquiry whilst the witness obtains the information.
  The policy on the award of costs incurred in planning inquiries is set out in DoE Circular 8/93. Before an award of costs is made, three conditions will normally need to be met (paragraph 6 of Annex 1 of the Appendix to Circular 8/93).
  Briefly these are:

  (1) one of the parties has sought an award at the inquiry;

  (2) the party against whom costs are sought has behaved unreasonably; and

  (3) this unreasonable conduct has caused the party seeking costs to incur expense unnecessarily.

  Therefore, at the inquiry an application for an award of costs may be made to the Inspector if a party considers that the unpreparedness of a witness has amounted to unreasonable behaviour and that such conduct has caused unnecessary expense. There is no other sanction (paragraph 9 of Circular 24/92). The Inspector will hear submissions from both parties. The decision on the award of costs will not normally be issued until the decision on the merits of the case has been issued.

  Redhill Aerodrome
  Mr. Peter Ainsworth
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make it his policy not to consider any further proposed developments at Redhill aerodrome for a designated period of years if the current planning application fails.

  Mr. Curry
  No. It will remain the case that any application for development at the aerodrome will need to be considered on its merits, having regard to the development plan, so far as it is material to the application, and any other material considerations.

  Mr. Peter Ainsworth
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what recent representations he has received from (i) commercial interests and (ii) representatives of local communities, regarding the proposal to develop an international airport at Redhill.

  Mr. Curry
  None. It is understood that representations have been made to the inspector following the close of the public inquiry. We will consider what action is necessary on such post-inquiry representations when the inspector has submitted his report, and if any are considered to be material to the decision, they will be made available to principal parties for comment before a final decision is taken.

  Mandatory Grants System
  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment when he proposes to make an announcement about the future of the mandatory grants system; what further arrangements he plans to make for consultation following that announcement; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Curry
  I refer to the reply given to the hon. Member by the then Minister for Housing, Inner Cities and Construction on 27 April 1994,Official Report, column 205.

  Departmental Staff (Contracts)
  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what are the numbers of persons and the percentage of those who were or are in(a) part-time and (b) full-time employment who had no time-limiter contract in (a) 1984 and (b) 1994 respectively.
  466
  Mr. Curry
  The following information covers non-industrial staff in my Department, excluding Property Services Agency Services, as at 1 April in each year:

  Year

  Part-time

  Percentage

  Full-time

  Percentage

  1984

  217

  3·7

  5,857

  96·3

  1994

  399

  6·3

  6,002

  93·8

  Canterbury City Council
  Mr. Gale
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what action he intends to take, in the light of the findings of his Department's inquiries, to ensure that correct contracting and accountancy practices are implemented by Canterbury city council's works and services department.

  Mr. Curry
  Canterbury city council has been investigating the accounts and operation of its works and services department, with the involvement of the external auditor and the police. My right hon. Friend has requested and recently received a report from the authority. He is now considering whether statutory action under the compulsory competitive tendering legislation is called for. I shall write to the hon. Member when that decision is taken.

  Construction Industry
  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what he now forecasts the total of new starts to be as a percentage of the construction industry's work load for each of the next three years.

  Mr. Curry
  I do not make any such forecasts.

  Airport Developments
  Mr. Peter Ainsworth
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make it his policy to confine new airport development to areas currently undergoing regeneration.

  Mr. Curry
  Aviation policy is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport. Decisions on any proposal for airport development would involve a wide range of considerations, including, where relevant, regeneration benefits.

  Conservation (Africa)
  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what discussions he has held with the Zimbabwe Government over the future of the black rhino and the African elephant.

  Mr. Atkins
  My noble Friend Lord Strathclyde had such discussions with Dr. Murerwa, the Zimbabwean Minister for Tourism and Wildlife, when he visited the country in 1992. Officials of my Department have had frequent contacts with their colleagues in Zimbabwe on these matters, notably in Harare during the United Kingdom-led EC fact-finding mission on the African elephant issue in late 1992 and last year in Nairobi at the United Nations Environment Programme rhino conserva-tion conference.

  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what information he has available on the white rhino population in Africa.
  467
  Mr. Atkins
  The estimated figures for 1993 indicate that the total number of white rhino in Africa is 5,821. This represents an increase of over 1,000 since 1990. The rise is evident only in South Africa which holds 5,300 of the species.

  Market Franchise Rights
  Mr. Wolfson
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what are his intentions regarding market franchise rights; and if he will consult all affected parties before any final decisions are taken on this issue.

  Mr. Curry
  We have now obtained the views of all the main interested parties on how they see the future of market franchises. We are now carefully considering these views, and once we have reached our conclusions we shall announce how we intend to take matters forward.

  Magill Inquiry
  Mr. John Marshall
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how frequently Mr. Magill updates his Department on the cost of his inquiry into Westminster county council.

  Mr. Curry
  Mr. Magill does not report to the Department.

  Canada Geese
  Mr. Tony Banks
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how many licences have been issued to cull Canada geese in the last two years; to whom they were issued; and how many geese were killed.

  Mr. Atkins
  Some 77 licences were issued by this Department and by the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to cull Canada geese in 1992. The corresponding figure for 1993 was 71. The number of birds killed were 1,175 and 1,310 respectively. Information that would identify the applicant for a licence is normally regarded as confidential.

  Mr. Tony Banks
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment on what grounds he has issued licences to cull Canada geese; and if he will give details of the methods of control recommended by his Department.

  Mr. Atkins
  Licences have been issued to control Canada geese to conserve wild birds and collections of wild birds, and to preserve public health or public safety.

  It is a matter for applicants for licences to select control methods that are not prohibited by the 1981 Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981. This week we published a leaflet prepared by my Department, on advice from its Canada goose working group, which gives guidance on legal methods for controlling the species, including shooting, egg pricking and a range of non-lethal scaring and habitat management techniques.

  Hosepipe Ban (Worcestershire)
  Mr. Michael Spicer
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will discuss with the chairman of Ofwat the hosepipe ban on parts of Worcestershire with a view to ensuring that Severn-Trent Water Authority plan for and invest in capacity which prevents a similar occurrence in the future.
  468
  Mr. Atkins
  The Director General of Water Services, the head of the Office of Water Services, has already established reference points for levels of service, including the frequency of hosepipe bans, on which water undertakers must report annually. This information is published and feeds into the investment planning of the undertakers, the Director General's consequent determinations on water pricing and his reviews of their performance.

  Council Tenancies (Hull)
  Mr. McNamara
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how many tenants of the North Hull housing action trust from 1 Avenue, Greenwood avenue and South close have chosen to return to council tenancies; what are the reasons for the delay in returning tenancies to the council; and when he will give his consent for the transfer of tenancies to the council.

  Mr. Curry
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Ministerial Visits
  Mrs. Roche
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how many overseas visits he and each of his Ministers have made between 1 January and 30 June; during how many he, or each of his Ministers, participated in fund raising activities for the Conservative party; and if he will name the Ministers and the countries in which these activities took place.

  Mr. Gummer
  Between 1 January and 30 June 1994, Ministers in my Department have made 21 overseas visits in their official capacity. Fund-raising activities for the Conservative party are not part of our official duties.

  "Crumbling Heritage"
  Mr. Dalyell
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what action he is taking to follow up the report by Professor R. U. Cooke, vice chancellor of York, entitled "Crumbling Heritage".

  Mr. Curry
  The Building Research Establishment has a substantial on-going programme of research in this area and has taken cognisance of the "Crumbling Heritage" report. The programme includes work on stone durability, selection, cleaning and repair. The Building Research Establishment operates a heritage support service which provides advice on request.

  Drinking Water
  Mr. Coe
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment when the fourth annual report of the drinking water inspectorate will be published.

  Mr. Atkins
  The drinking water inspectorate published its fourth annual report today. Once again, it shows that drinking water in England and Wales is of a very high quality. In 1993, 98·9 per cent. of the 3·5 million tests carried out by water companies on drinking water met the relevant standard, compared with 98·7 per cent. in 1992.

  The report provides a detailed picture of water quality in England and Wales which has been tested against the stringent criteria of the water quality regulations which incorporate the limits in the EC drinking water directive.

  The inspectorate is also publishing a leaflet called "How Good is our Drinking Water?", which summarises the main points of the report.
  469
  Copies of the report and leaflet have been placed in the Library of the House.

  Peat Extraction
  Mr. Spring
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment when he expects to be able to announce the publication of the report from the working group on peat extraction and related matters, which his Department set up in 1992.

  Mr. Curry
  The report from the working group will be published during the first part of next month. It will be accompanied by a draft, for consultation, of a minerals planning guidance note on peat relating to England. Copies of the documents will be placed in the Library of both Houses.

  Property Services Agency
  Mr. Streeter
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a further statement on the sales of the Property Services Agency's building management businesses.

  Mr. Curry
  In accordance with the respective share sale agreements, the consideration for each business has been adjusted to reflect the difference between the net asset value of the business estimated prior to completion, and the actual net asset value as determined after completion.

  I can now advise that the agreed consideration adjustments made by PSA Services to the purchasers are as follows:

  Business

  Purchaser

  Adjustment £

  BM Scotland

  Serco

  725,179

  Noreast BM

  John Mowlem Construction plc

  2,801,391

  BM Manchester

  W. S. Atkins Building and Property

  3,607,697

  BM South East

  Management Services Ltd.

  1,979,677

  BM South and West

  (Amec-Pell Frischmann Consortium)

  3,873,662

  Planning Guidance (Coal Extraction)
  Dr. Spink
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment when he intends to publish revised planning guidance on coal extraction; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Curry
  We have published new planning guidance for coal today. The guidance replaced the guidance in MPG3, published in 1988, and the interim planning guidance announced by the then Secretary of State on 25 March 1993.

  The guidance seeks to provide a policy framework for mineral planning authorities and the industry to ensure that the extraction of coal and disposal of colliery spoil can take place in accordance with the full and proper protection of the environment and the principles of sustainable development. The Government believe that this can best be done through a clear and consistent planning approach at the local level within a broad national policy framework.

  The best way of striking the balance between the economic importance of this indigenous energy resource
  470
  and the protection of the environment is through the careful consideration of individual applications within the framework of the development plan led system.

  The guidance provides a stronger environmental framework than the existing guidance published in 1988. But I am confident that it will enable the industry to develop the mineral resource in a way that has proper regard to local concerns and is fully compatible with economic growth, the protection of the environment and the principles of sustainable development.

  Hedgerows
  Mrs. Angela Knight
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what steps he has taken to monitor hedgerows.

  Mr. Atkins
  I am pleased to announce the results of the survey we commissioned recently from the Institute of Terrestrial Ecology to provide an up-to-date picture of changes in the numbers of hedgerows in the countryside of England and Wales. By using comparable methodology to countryside survey 90, this most recent study enables a comparison between changes recorded during the period 1984–90 with those during the period 1990–93.

  The results show that the annual rate of hedgerow removal has declined from 9,500 km per year in 1984–90, to 3,600 km per year during 1990–93. Expressed as a percentage of existing hedgerow stock this represents a halving of the rate at which hedges are being grubbed up, from 1·7 per cent. to 0·8 per cent. per year. Furthermore, the annual gains from hedge planting have more than doubled from 1,900 km per year during 1984–90, to 4,400 km per year during 1990–93. The rate of removal is now outweighed by the rate of new planting.

  The downward trend in hedgerow removal is welcome, and is consistent with the change in agricultural policies in recent years towards greater emphasis on care of the countryside. Schemes such as environmentally sensitive areas introduced in 1987 and countryside stewardship launched in 1991, have encouraged the conservation of hedgerows.

  While these results provide good evidence that widespread removal in the countryside is not the problem it was, nevertheless some 3,600 km of hedgerow on average are being removed annually. We remain committed to protecting hedges of key importance, and we are therefore considering carefully how to focus protection on the highly valuable hedges, for which no amount of replanting can substitute—for example, an ancient parish boundary hedge.

  The survey reveals that changes in hedgerow stocks have also occurred as a result of changes in management. 22,500 km per year became classified as relict hedges during 1990–93, as compared with 7,400 km per year during 1984–90. Such changes occurred where hedges ceased to be cut and managed as hedges and grow into lines of bushes or trees. This trend was offset in part by restoration of relict hedges which increased from 2·400 km per year, to 5,700 km per year. For the future, the hedgerow incentive scheme, which was launched in England in 1992, and the hedgerow restoration scheme in Wales, should increasingly work with the farm and conservation grant scheme and the environmentally sensitive areas scheme to encourage retention in active management of hedgerows of particular historic, wildlife or landscape value.

  Council Leaseholders (Property Sales)
  Mr. Simon Coombs
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment when he expects to introduce a financial concession to assist local authorities to help council leaseholders who are finding it difficult to sell their flats.

  Mr. Matthew Banks
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment when he expects to introduce the financial concession to assist local authorities to help council leaseholders who are finding it difficult to sell their flats.

  Mr. Curry
  My right hon. Friend had hoped to lay an order before the recess to implement a limited concession to help certain leaseholders. A draft order has been prepared but we have agreed to defer laying it in response to representations from the local authority associations that they and other interested parties should have an opportunity to consider the concession alongside other measures which we are proposing to assist leaseholders in difficulty with the resale of former council flats and with service charges. The draft order will therefore be included in a discussion paper to be issued to the associations, the National Federation of Council Leaseholders and others next week. Comments will be invited by mid-September and we hope to reach a conclusion shortly thereafter. A copy of the discussion paper will be placed in the Library.

  Newsprint
  Mr. Corbett
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what plans he has to introduce a mandatory minimum proportion of recycled fibre content in newsprint.

  Mr. Atkins
  [holding answer 20 June 1994]: Our policy is to help promote waste minimisation and value recovery from waste, including recycling, through the producer responsibility initiative. This entails an industry assuming a share of the responsibility for dealing with the waste arising from its products. In the case of the newsprint industry, our discussions have focused on the proportion of recycled fibre content in newsprint. Under this broad approach, the solutions which are adopted are likely to be more flexible and cost-effective than a statutorily imposed regime.

  Mean and median net rents by tenancy type—Great Britain1

  (£ per annum)

  Rented privately

  Rented from local authority

  Rented from housing association

  Unfurnished

  Furnished

  Year

  Mean

  Median

  Mean

  Median

  Mean

  Median

  Mean

  Median

  1988

  490

  420

  640

  760

  890

  750

  1,590

  1,310

  1989

  500

  500

  600

  700

  900

  800

  1,800

  1,300

  1990

  650

  560

  780

  840

  1,270

  990

  2,440

  1,720

  1991

  720

  570

  760

  780

  1,470

  1,040

  2,830

  1,890

  1992

  750

  540

  990

  830

  1,730

  1,280

  2,640

  2,280

  1 Net rent is gross rent less any rent rebate (Housing benefit) received.

  Source: Family Expenditure Survey.

  The rents shown are from sample surveys ans are subject to sampling error. This accounts for some of the apparent year to year variations.

  Docklands Light Railway
  Ms Gordon
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what was the cost of the consultation paper published in 1994 by the promoters canvassing the possibility of building the Docklands light railway Lewisham extension without building a station at Island

  Rents
  Ms. Harman
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will publish a table setting out for each year between 1988–89 and 1993–94 the mean and median rents paid by local authority, housing association and private sector tenants, dividing the latter two groups into fair rented and non-fair rented accommodation; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Curry
  [holding answer 14 July 1994]: The available information is given in the tables.

  Mean and median net rents by tenancy type—England

  (£ per annum)

  Tenancy type

  1993–94

  Rented from local authority

  Mean

  870

  Median

  580

  Rented from housing association

  FAIR

  Mean

  1,090

  Median

  1,040

  ASSURED

  Mean

  990

  Median

  520

  Rented privately

  FAIR

  Mean

  880

  Median

  870

  ASSURED

  Mean

  2,790

  Median

  2,280

  OTHER1

  Mean

  1,650

  Median

  1,260

  1 Rented—other includes rents such as those paid to resident landlords, for lets with the job, college lets, or regulated tenancies without a registered fair rent.

  Source: Survey of English Housing.

  Equivalent information for early years is available only for Great Britain and by calendar year as follows.

  Gardens; what was the cost of the consultation exercise; and what was the cost to public funds of the hearing before the Chairman of Committees in the House of Lords.

  Mr. Curry
  [holding answer 14 July 1994]: The cost to the docklands light railway and London Docklands development corporation's consultation exercise set out proposals on stations originally planned for the Lewisharn extension both north and south of the river, was

  473
  approximately £25,000. This includes the costs of printing and distributing the consultation paper and report. It also includes the costs of seeking additional financial contributions from third parties towards project costs. The cost to the promoters of their represention before the Lord Chairman of Committees was approximately £30,000. I understand that the hearing itself caused no additional cost to public funds except for an estimated £355 for the publication of the chairman's determination on Island Gardens station.

  Nitrous Oxide
  Mr. Dalyell
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what study he is undertaking of the effect of nitrous oxide on the rate of stone building decay.

  Mr. Atkins
  My Department is undertaking no studies of the effect of nitrous oxide on the rate of stone building decay.

OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT ADMINISTRATION

  United Nations Conference on Population and Development
  Mr. Worthington
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make it his policy to support strongly paragraphs 7.42 and 7.43 on adolescent sexual and reproductive health in the draft final document for the international conference on population and development in Cairo.

  Mr. Baldry
  We have supported statements in the document which calls for efforts to meet the special needs of young people. We shall continue to do so in preparations for the conference with our EU partners. We recognise that for some delegations this is a difficult issue. However, it is important to ensure that all young people are able to get the information and services they need to keep healthy, and that negotiations continue, in Cairo, to find acceptable language in support of this goal.

  Mr. Worthington
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make it his policy to seek to safeguard the rights of adolescents to privacy, confidentiality, informed consent and respect at the United Nations conference on population and development in Cairo.

  Mr. Baldry
  I refer the hon. Member to my answer concerning meeting the needs of young people. We support statements that call for adolescents to be able to access reproductive health information and services provided in a responsible and culturally sensitive fashion, and with due regard to general principles of health care practice—including privacy, confidentiality, informed consent and, of course, respect.

  Rwanda
  Mr. Worthington
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make British cargo aircraft available to meet the food crisis in Zaire arising from refugees from Rwanda.
  474
  Mr. Baldry
  We are making two aircraft available to the UN High Commissioner for Refugees for an unspecified period for the collection and delivery of priority relief needs.

  Mr. Worthington
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how each of the G7 states have responded to the appeal by the President of the Organisation of African Unity, the President of Tunisia, that they should support African troops with the necessary logistical support in Rwanda.

  Mr. Baldry
  In response to requests by the United Nations to provide logistical support to UNAMIR, Italy has agreed to provide one C130 aircraft plus crew, plus a possible six fuel/water trucks; Canada is providing a signals squadron plus aircraft; the US 50 armoured personnnel carriers plus other unspecified support for the Ghanaian contingent; Her Majesty's Government have provided 50 4x4 trucks; Japan has contributed $3 million towards costs of equipment and France is engaged in Operation Turquoise. So far there has been no indication of any German contribution.

  Dr. Lynne Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many postcards, letters and proforma letters his Department have received on the subject of Rwanda, whether sent directly or forwarded by hon. Members,(a) in the last month and (b) in the last two months.

  Mr. Baldry
  In June we received approximately 1,470 letters and cards about Rwanda. Just over 1,300 were received in May.

  Mr. Worthington
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the level of humanitarian need at Goma and other places in Zaire arising from the influx of refugees from Rwanda; and what international arrangements have been made to meet those needs.

  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent additional emergency steps have been taken by Her Majesty's Government to assist in the refugee crisis in Rwanda.

  Mr. Parry
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what are the latest figures for Government aid to the state of Rwanda.

  Mr. Mackinlay
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) what his Department has done to alleviate the plight and suffering of refugees in Rwanda over the past 12 months; and if he will make a statement;

  (2) what discussions he has had with voluntary aid agencies and churches in the United Kingdom on action to alleviate the plight of refugees in Rwanda; and if he will make a statement;

  (3) what current assessment his Department has made of the scale of the refugee situation in states bordering Rwanda since the outbreak of civil war and genocide in that country; and if he will make a statement;

  (4) what current assessment his Department has made of the scale of the refugee situation in Rwanda; and if he will make a statement;

  (5) what his Department has done to alleviate the plight and suffering of refugees in states bordering Rwanda since the ourtbreak of civil war and genocide in that country; and if he will make a statement;
  475
  (6) what discussions his Department has had with voluntary aid agencies and churches in the United Kingdom on action to alleviate the plight of refugees in states bordering Rwanda; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what is the total value of aid given for humanitarian relief that has been spent(a) in Rwanda and (b) in each of the neighbouring countries since the refugee crisis began in April.

  Mr. Baldry
  In the past 12 months Britain has provided £12·5 million emergency aid directly for people affected by the civil war in Rwanda, of which £11 million has been committed since early April. This includes £2·5 million for those within the country, £1·5 million for those in Zaire, £4·2 million for those in Tanzania, £0·6 million for those in Burundi.

  We have been monitoring the situation closely through reports from international agencies and non-governmental organisations and have sent two assessment missions to the region, most recently from 10 to 14 July.

  Within the last week we have provided three relief flights to Goma containing vehicles, personnel, blankets, plastic sheeting and water carriers, and have provided an air bridge at Goma to assist with the overall airlift on behalf of the UN high commissioner for refugees. At their request two additional air bridge teams are being sent to Bukavu in Zaire and Entebbe in Uganda.

  The Government are also fully funding two further flights organised by the British Red Cross, and are

  Date

  Location

  Details

  Delay to Service

  5 January 1991

  Off Lisbon

  Main starboard engine connecting rod disintegration.

  Vessel out of service for 92 days.

  11 April 1993

  On passage Tristan da Cunha to Cape Town

  Starboard main engine gear train failure. Temporary repairs in Cape Town.

  11 days.

  9 February 1994

  On passage Inaccessible Island to Cape Town.

  Port main engine exhaust valve failure.

  2 days.

  18 May 1994

  On passage Tenerife to Ascension Island

  Repeat of starboard engine gear train failure of 11 April 1993.

  21 days of voyage abandoned.

  Somalia
  Mr. Mackinlay
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his Department has done to alleviate the plight and suffering of refugees in Somalia over the past 12 months; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Baldry
  In the past 12 months more than £4·3 million has been given in general humanitarian assistance to Somalia. It is not possible to distinguish how much of this benefited refugees.

  Mr. Mackinlay
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what current assessment his Department has made of the scale of the refugee situation in Somalia; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Baldry
  According to UNHCR there are only some 400 refugees from other countries in Somalia. This is much fewer than the number of internally displaced people in the country. No statistics are held for these.476
  providing two chartered aircraft for use by UNHCR within the region; as well as helping with a number of other British NGOs who are mobilising resources and organising their own airlifts.

  The EU Foreign Affairs Council agreed on 18 July to allocate £120 million from existing Lomé funds to finance humanitarian assistance in Rwanda: this is subject to the agreement of the African, Caribbean and Pacific countries. This is in addition to over £100 million of emergency aid provided for Rwandan refugees since last year, including the cost of 40,000 tons of food aid now in transit through Uganda.

  The Government continue to monitor the situation extremely closely. My right hon. Friend the Minister for Overseas Development will be visiting the region next week.

  RMS St. Helena
  Dr. Marek
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will give details of the delays, with times, and places, suffered by the present RMS St. Helena because of engine malfunction since it was brought into service.

  Mr. Baldry
  Details of the delays, with dates and places, suffered by the present RMS St. Helena because of engine malfunction since the vessel entered service are as follows:

  East Africa
  Mr. Mackinlay
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what current assessment his Department has made of the scale of the refugee situation in those states of east Africa bordering on to countries in which there is civil war and starvation; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Baldry
  According to latest information received from UNHCR, there are the following number of refugees from other countries in the region: Ethiopia 250,000; Somalia 400; Sudan 750,000; Kenya 370,000; Uganda 300,000; Tanzania 1·025 million. It is not known how many refugees there are in Eritrea.

  Mr. Mackinlay
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) what discussions his Department has had with voluntary aid agencies and churches in the United Kingdom on action to alleviate the plight of refugees in those states of east Africa bordering on the countries in which there is civil war and starvation; and if he will make a statement;

  (2) what discussions his Department has had with voluntary aid agencies and churches in the United Kingdom on action to alleviate the plight of refugees in Somalia; and if he will make a statement.
  477
  Mr. Baldry
  My right hon. Friend the Minister for Overseas Development regularly meets representatives of non-governmental organisations about humanitarian assistance in the Horn of Africa, including Somalia. In addition ODA representatives regularly attend meetings of the Africa committee of the Refugee Council to discuss current matters of concern.

  Mr. Mackinlay
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his Department has done to alleviate the plight and suffering of refugees in those states of east Africa bordering on to countries in which there is civil war and starvation over the past 12 months; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Baldry
  In addition to the substantial programmes for Rwandan refugees and for humanitarian assistance to Somalia, Ethiopia and Sudan, the United Kingdom has provided in the past twelve months over £1·1 million in refugee grants for projects run by United Kingdom non-government organisations in Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda, and eastern Sudan.

  In addition, £1 million was paid to the United Nations high commissioner for refugees towards care and maintenance programmes for Somali and other refugees in Kenya. At the same time £500,000 was provided to UNHCR for maintenance of Somali refugee camps in Ethiopia and the reintegration of Ethiopian refugees and for a repatriation programme for Ethiopian refugees from Sudan.

  Belize-Guatemala Road Link
  Mr. Mans
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on developments with regard to the United Kingdom's 1991 aid pledge for a joint Belize—Guatemala road link.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  We have decided to authorise the Belize element of the Government's pledge. Subject to satisfactory appraisal, the £7·5 million Belizean share of the pledge will be used to contribute to the financing of the southern highway project, which is the Belize Government's next infrastructure priority.

  As relations between Belize and Guatemala develop, we hope to be able to proceed with the Guatemala element of the aid commitment.

  Natural Resources Institute
  Mr. Mans
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what performance targets have been set for the current year for the Overseas Development Administration's executive agency, the Natural Resources Institute.

  Mr. Baldry
  The institute's principal performance targets for 1994–95 are: to recover the full economic costs of its ordinary activities; to achieve a further increase of 20 per cent. in the volume of work done for non-ODA clients,

  Population in Prison Service Establishments, in England and Wales, by type of prisoner and nationality as at 30 September 1993

  Type of Prisoner

  Nationality

  Male

  Female

  Remand

  Sentenced1

  All2

  Remand

  Sentenced1

  All2

  United Kingdom

  10,248

  30,352

  40,760

  364

  988

  1,358

  All non-British Nationals

  715

  2,042

  3,176

  73

  192

  295

  478
  with an increase of 35 per cent. in the value of net income from this source; and to secure a reduction in the real cost of operational time charged to clients to below the 1992–93 level, thereby recovering the 5·2 per cent. efficiency loss in 1993–94.

  Nigeria
  Mrs. Ann Winterton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what information he has about the background of Judge Sylvanus Karibi-Whyte who has been seconded from the United Nations Commission on war crimes in former Yugoslavia to chair the constitutional conference in Nigeria; what further steps his Department is taking to assist with the work of the conference; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Baldry
  [holding answer 20 July 1994]: Justice Adolphus Godwin Karibi-Whyte was appointed a Justice of the Supreme Court of Nigeria in 1984. He was elected to the Yugoslav war crimes tribunal at the International Court of Human Rights in The Hague on 17 September 1993, and was appointed chairman of the national constitutional conference on 17 June 1994.

  My hon. Friend the Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale (Mr. Lennox-Boyd) described our assistance to the conference in his reply of 5 July at columns 118–19. We would be prepared to consider any further requests for help.

HOME DEPARTMENT

  Foreign Prisoners
  Mr. Cox
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what was the number of foreign inmates(a)men and (b) women being held in prisons in England and Wales on 11 July.

  Mr. Maclean
  Responsibility for this matter has been delegated to the Director General of the Prison Service, who has been asked to arrange for a reply to be given.

  Letter from Derek Lewis to Mr. Tom Cox, dated 21 July 1994:
  The Home Secretary has asked me to reply to your recent Question about the number of foreign inmates (a) men and (b)women being held in prisons in England and Wales on 11 July.
  The latest available provisional information is for 31 May 1994. On that date there were approximately 3,780 non-British citizens (3,470 males and 310 females) in Prison Service establishments in England and Wales. This includes about 600 male and 20 female nationals from the Irish Republic. Approximately a further 470 persons had no nationality recorded.
  I also wrote to you on 31 January in reply to your Questions about the number of foreign nationals from varying countries who were detained in Prison Service establishments in England and Wales. Unfortunately, those detained under Immigration Act powers were omitted from the information provided. I attach revised tables. A copy of these tables has been placed in the House of Commons Library.
  479 480

  Type of Prisoner

  Nationality

  Male

  Female

  Remand

  Sentenced1

  All2

  Remand

  Sentenced1

  All2

  Not recorded

  43

  548

  601

  2

  17

  21

  Europe

  Albania

  1

  —

  2

  —

  —

  —

  Andorra

  2

  8

  10

  —

  —

  —

  Armenia

  1

  —

  1

  —

  —

  —

  Austria

  1

  4

  6

  —

  —

  —

  Belgium

  9

  13

  22

  —

  1

  1

  Cyprus

  8

  35

  46

  1

  1

  2

  Czechoslovakia

  1

  2

  3

  —

  —

  —

  Denmark

  —

  3

  3

  —

  —

  —

  Finland

  —

  1

  1

  —

  —

  —

  France

  13

  16

  35

  2

  2

  4

  German Democratic Republic

  2

  1

  4

  —

  —

  —

  German Federal Republic

  11

  26

  37

  3

  —

  3

  Gibraltar

  —

  1

  1

  —

  1

  1

  Greece

  1

  10

  12

  —

  1

  1

  Hungary

  1

  2

  3

  —

  1

  1

  Irish Republic

  157

  367

  526

  2

  10

  12

  Italy

  19

  43

  62

  —

  4

  4

  Luxembourg

  —

  1

  1

  —

  —

  —

  Malta

  2

  6

  8

  —

  —

  —

  Netherlands

  35

  52

  87

  4

  6

  10

  Norway

  —

  —

  1

  —

  —

  —

  Poland

  —

  7

  8

  —

  1

  2

  Portugal

  13

  14

  28

  3

  —

  3

  Romania

  1

  1

  10

  —

  —

  —

  Spain

  15

  19

  35

  2

  —

  2

  Sweden

  —

  2

  2

  —

  —

  —

  Switzerland

  —

  1

  1

  —

  1

  1

  Turkey

  16

  48

  84

  —

  1

  1

  USSR

  —

  —

  2

  —

  —

  1

  Yugoslavia

  1

  9

  12

  —

  —

  —

  Middle East

  Afghanistan

  1

  2

  3

  —

  —

  —

  Bahrain

  —

  1

  1

  —

  —

  —

  Egypt

  —

  4

  6

  —

  —

  —

  Iran

  2

  20

  25

  —

  1

  1

  Israel

  3

  10

  14

  —

  —

  —

  Iraq

  1

  5

  6

  —

  —

  —

  Jordan

  2

  6

  8

  1

  —

  1

  Kuwait

  —

  2

  2

  —

  —

  —

  Lebanon

  3

  8

  14

  —

  —

  —

  Saudi Arabia

  —

  1

  1

  —

  —

  —

  Sierre Leone

  2

  6

  19

  —

  —

  —

  Syrian Arab Republic

  2

  1

  4

  —

  —

  —

  United Arab Emirates

  —

  2

  2

  —

  —

  —

  Yemen Arab Republic (North)

  1

  —

  1

  —

  —

  —

  Yemen Peoples Democratic Republic (South)

  1

  1

  2

  —

  —

  —

  India

  35

  148

  293

  —

  10

  10

  Pakistan

  55

  188

  257

  2

  6

  9

  Bangladesh

  6

  35

  43

  —

  —

  —

  Hong Kong

  —

  5

  6

  —

  1

  1

  Other Asia

  Burma

  —

  2

  2

  —

  —

  —

  China

  3

  7

  14

  —

  1

  2

  British India Ocean Territory

  2

  1

  3

  —

  —

  —

  Indonesia

  —

  —

  1

  —

  —

  —

  Korea Republic (South)

  —

  1

  1

  —

  2

  2

  Malaysia

  3

  4

  8

  1

  —

  1

  Nepal

  1

  —

  1

  —

  —

  —

  Philippines

  —

  3

  3

  1

  1

  2

  Sri Lanka

  3

  12

  17

  —

  —

  —

  Singapore

  3

  3

  6

  —

  —

  —

  Thailand

  —

  2

  2

  —

  1

  1

  Vietnam

  6

  8

  14

  —

  —

  —

  Africa

  Algeria

  —

  6

  30

  —

  —

  —

  Angola

  —

  5

  13

  —

  —

  —

  Ascension Island

  —

  —

  1

  —

  —

  —

  Benin

  —

  —

  —

  —

  1

  1

  481
  482

  Type of Prisoner

  Nationality

  Male

  Female

  Remand

  Sentenced1

  All2

  Remand

  Sentenced1

  All2

  Cameroon

  —

  —

  1

  —

  —

  —

  Central African Republic

  4

  2

  6

  —

  —

  —

  Congo

  —

  —

  2

  —

  —

  —

  Ivory Coast

  1

  1

  4

  —

  —

  1

  Ethiopia

  1

  2

  3

  —

  —

  —

  Ghana

  16

  34

  78

  5

  18

  24

  Gambia

  —

  4

  4

  —

  —

  —

  Guinea

  —

  —

  2

  —

  —

  —

  Kenya

  2

  25

  30

  1

  —

  1

  Liberia

  1

  1

  4

  —

  —

  —

  Libya

  1

  7

  10

  —

  —

  —

  Morocco

  6

  18

  29

  —

  1

  1

  Mauritania

  —

  2

  2

  —

  1

  1

  Mauritius

  1

  8

  9

  —

  —

  —

  Malawi

  —

  3

  4

  —

  1

  1

  Mayotte

  1

  —

  1

  —

  —

  —

  Niger

  —

  —

  1

  —

  —

  —

  Nigeria

  37

  120

  217

  14

  47

  71

  Senegal

  —

  —

  1

  —

  —

  —

  Seychelles

  1

  4

  5

  —

  —

  —

  Sudan

  —

  —

  2

  —

  1

  1

  St. Helena

  —

  1

  1

  —

  —

  —

  Somalia

  9

  9

  23

  —

  —

  —

  Tunisia

  —

  6

  7

  —

  —

  —

  Tanzania

  4

  3

  10

  1

  —

  1

  Uganda

  4

  13

  23

  —

  —

  —

  South Africa

  3

  17

  22

  —

  2

  2

  Zambia

  4

  3

  7

  —

  1

  1

  Zaire

  2

  4

  25

  —

  —

  —

  Zimbabwe

  2

  9

  11

  —

  —

  —

  Caribbean

  Antigua

  2

  7

  9

  —

  —

  —

  Barbados

  2

  13

  15

  1

  1

  2

  Costa Rica

  —

  1

  1

  —

  —

  —

  Cuba

  —

  1

  1

  —

  —

  —

  Dominica

  —

  7

  7

  —

  —

  —

  Dominican Republic

  1

  3

  4

  —

  1

  1

  Grenada

  2

  5

  7

  —

  1

  1

  Haiti

  —

  —

  1

  —

  —

  —

  Jamaica

  110

  317

  440

  17

  30

  55

  St. Lucia

  4

  12

  17

  —

  —

  —

  Monserrat

  —

  2

  2

  —

  —

  —

  St. Christopher and Nevis

  —

  2

  2

  —

  —

  —

  Trinidad and Tobago

  4

  10

  14

  —

  —

  —

  St. Vincent and Grenadines

  —

  10

  10

  —

  1

  1

  United States of America

  15

  37

  56

  3

  17

  20

  Canada

  4

  13

  18

  —

  1

  1

  America (North and South)

  Argentina

  3

  1

  4

  —

  —

  —

  Belize

  —

  1

  1

  —

  —

  —

  Bolivia

  —

  2

  2

  —

  1

  1

  Brazil

  1

  4

  6

  1

  2

  3

  Cayman Islands

  —

  1

  1

  —

  —

  —

  Chile

  —

  4

  4

  2

  —

  2

  Colombia

  2

  42

  52

  1

  4

  5

  Guyana

  6

  20

  26

  2

  6

  13

  Mexico

  —

  1

  1

  —

  —

  —

  Peru

  —

  6

  7

  —

  —

  —

  Surinam

  1

  —

  1

  —

  —

  —

  Uruguay

  1

  1

  2

  —

  —

  —

  Venezuela

  —

  3

  3

  —

  —

  1

  Australia

  6

  18

  25

  1

  —

  1

  New Zealand

  3

  11

  14

  1

  1

  2

  Oceania

  Fiji

  1

  —

  1

  —

  —

  —

  Guam

  —

  —

  —

  1

  —

  1

  Papua New Guinea

  1

  —

  1

  —

  —

  —

  Solomon Islands

  1

  —

  1

  —

  —

  —

  1 Includes persons committed in default of payment of a fine.

  2 Includes Immigration Act detainees and non-criminal prisoners.

  Small Businesses
  Mr. David Shaw
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement on the achievements of(a) his policies and (b) his Department in helping small businesses over the last 12 months as against the previous 12 months; if he will publish the performance indicators by which his Department monitors those achievements and the statistical results of such monitoring; and if he will set out his targets to help small businesses in the next year.

  Mr. Howard
  The Government recognise the crucial role played by small firms in the United Kingdom economy. Government help small firms by keeping inflation and interest rates low and by reducing legislative and administrative burdens. They also provide direct assistance where appropriate, and are currently establishing a network of business links to provide high-quality business support across the country.

  Since July 1993, the Home Office has demonstrated its continued commitment to helping small businesses through deregulation. Steps taken have included simplifying the law on Sunday trading and on football pools, and legislative proposals, in the Deregulation and Contracting Out Bill, to introduce a system of children's certificates for licensed premises, and to end restrictions on weekday shopping hours and Sunday racing and betting. We have announced our intention to remove various restrictions on betting offices, and to bring forward a measure under the order-making power in the Deregulation and Contracting Out Bill to repeal the provision in the Licensing Act 1964, which makes it an offence to sell someone more alcohol than they have asked for. In addition, small businesses have been consulted in the course of a fundamental review of the Fire Precautions Act 1971, and in the subsequent inter-departmental review of the enforcement of fire safety regulations. The Government are now considering the outcome of these reviews, and paying particular attention to the needs of small businesses in this context.

  In the past year, 32 of the 71 regulations affecting business for which the Home Office is responsible have been reviewed. A programme for the review of the remainder is now being developed. This programme, which will also cover other deregulatory work, will include targets for the various items in the programme.

  Much of the deregulatory work undertaken in the past year in the Home Office has carried forward work started in the previous 12 months. This had included proposals for legislation to clarify the law on Sunday trading, consultation exercises on greyhound racing and liquor licensing, and the start of the review of all the regulations affecting business for which the Home Office is responsible.

  The Department's work on deregulations has been complemented by efforts to help small businesses protect themselves against crime, and to help those who wish to bid for Home Office business. In 1993, the Home Office crime prevention unit published a research paper "The Prevention of Crime Against Small Businesses: The Safer Cities Experience" which examined the effectiveness of crime prevention schemes directed at small business. The Home Office crime prevention centre has also published a guide on retail security to help police officers advise small retailers on protection against burglary. In addition, the
  484
  National Board for Crime Prevention—a non-departmental public body for which the Home Office is responsible—has recently set up a retail action group to look at crime and its effect on the retail sector. This group plans to issue guidance on various aspects of crime prevention which should help small businesses. The Home Office is also carrying out a survey for the international business crime survey of large and small business premises to enable the relative risks for different types of premises to be estimated.

  On procurement, it is the Home Office's policy to give encouragement and assistance to small businesses wherever possible. To that end, over the past 12 months we have again revised and re-issued a booklet: "Selling to the Home Office", which details the Department's purchasing needs, and gives specific contact points for initial approaches. A central contact point for general inquiries is also available. The Home Office does not, however, hold detailed information on the volume of business placed with small firms.

  Young Offenders
  Dr. Lynne Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many juveniles were detained in adult prisons each year since 1991.

  Mr. Maclean
  Responsibility for this matter has been delegated to the Director General of the Prison Service, who has been asked to arrange for a reply to be given.

  Letter from Derek Lewis to Dr. Lynne Jones, dated 21 July 1994:
  The Home Secretary has asked me to reply to your recent Question about the number of juveniles detained in adult prisons each year since 1991.
  The attached table gives information on youths aged 17 or under who were first received into an adult Prison Service establishment in England and Wales since 1991.

  Youths1 first received into an adult Prison Service establishment in England and Wales 1991 to 1993

  Type of first reception

  Year

  Remand

  2Sentenced

  1991

  1,565

  878

  1992

  751

  472

  31993

  570

  180

  1 Persons aged 17 years or under.

  2 Includes fine defaulters. This may include some previously received as a remand prisoner into an adult establishment.

  3 Provisional figures.

  Speed Cameras
  Mr. Day
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will arrange for funds generated from fines for speeding offences detected by cameras to be passed to local police authorities for funding further provision of speed cameras and the staff necessary to administer the processing of the offences.

  Mr. Maclean
  No. The income from criminal penalties, including fixed penalties and court fines for traffic offences, goes directly to the Consolidated Fund at the Exchequer.

  Fire Services
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will clarify the London fire and civil defence authority's reasons for not having five pumping applicances in the north-east area of the London fire brigade available for operational service on the night of Sunday 26 June.

  Mr. Maclean
  I have been informed by the chief fire officer that on the evening of 26 June five pumping appliances were unavailable because of unusually high levels of sick leave. The brigade was nevertheless able to ensure that the required levels of service were delivered to the public.

  Consultation Documents
  Mr. George
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will list the White and Green Papers and consultation documents published by his Department in the last five years.

  Mr. Howard
  The available information is as follows:White Papers
  Charities: a framework for the future/Great Britain. Home Office.—London: HMSO, 1989.—(Cm 694)
  Compensating victims of violent crime: changes to the criminal injuries compensation scheme/Great Britain. Home Office.—London: HMSO, 1993.—(Cm 2434)
  Crime, justice and protecting the public/Great Britain. Home Office.—London: HMSO, 1990.—(Cm 965)
  Custody, care and justice: the way ahead for the Prison Service in England and Wales/Woolf, Harry; Great Britain. Home Office. —London: HMSO, 1991.—(Cm 1647)
  A National lottery: raising money for good causes/Great Britain. Home Office.—London: HMSO, 1992.—(Cm 1861)
  A New framework for local justice/Great Britain. Home Office; Great Britain. Lord Chancellor's Department.—London: HMSO, 1992.—(Cm 1829)
  [Issued jointly by the Home Office and Lord Chancellor's Department]
  Police reform: a police service for the twenty-first century/Great Britain. Home Office.—London: HMSO, 1993.—(Cm 2281) Supervision and punishment in the community: a framework for action/Great Britain. Home Office.—London: HMSO, 1990.—(Cm 966)
  Green Papers and other consultation documents
  Absent voting/Great Britain. Home Office—[London]: Home Office, 1989.—(Representation of the People Acts consultation paper; no. 2).
  The Asylum Appeals (Procedure) Rules 1992: consultation draft 1st November 1991/Great Britain, Home Office. Immigration and Nationality Department.—[Croydon: Home Office], 1991/Great Britain. Home Office. Immigration and Nationality Department. —[Croydon: Home Office], 1991
  Candidates election expenses: consultation paper/Great Britain. Home Office.—[London]: Home Office, 1989
  Civil defence community volunteers: a discussion paper by the co-ordinator of voluntary effort/Emergency Planning College, —Easingwold: [Emergency Planning College], 1989.
  A Code of standards for the Prison Service: a discussion document produced by the Code of Standards Steering Group/Dunbar, I M; Great Britain. Prison Service. Directorate of Inmate Administration. London: Home Office, 1992
  The control of dogs: a consultation paper/Great Britain. Home Office.—London: Home Office, 1990
  Control of fund-raising: a consultation document on part II of the Charities Act 1992/Great Britain. Voluntary Services Unit.—Home Office, Voluntary Services Unit, 1993
  Court escorts, custody and security: a discussion paper/Great Britain. Home Office. Criminal Department.—London: Home Office, 1990
  Criminal appeals and the establishment of a Criminal Cases Review Authority: a discussion paper/Great Britain. Home Office.—[London]: Home Office, 1994
  486
  Disclosure of criminal records for employment vetting purposes: a consultation paper by the Home Office/Great Britain. Home Office.—London: HMSO, 1993.—(Cm 2319)
  Draft magistrates' courts (Children Act 1989) rules 1991: consultation paper/Great Britain. Home Office.—[London]: Home Office, 1991
  Draft magistrates' courts (Children Act 1989) rules 1991: additional consultation paper/Great Britain. Home Office. [London]: Home Office, 1991
  Evening opening of licensed betting offices: Home. Office consultation document/Great Britain. Home Office.—London: Home Office, 1991
  Fire safety management in hotels and boarding houses: draft for consultation/Great Britain. Home Office.—London: Home Office, 1990
  Misuse of witness statements in sexual offences cases: a consultation paper by the Home Office/Great Britain. Home Office.—London: Home Office, 1991.
  Partnership in dealing with offenders in the community: a discussion paper issued by the Home Office to complement the white paper 'Crime, Justice, and protecting the public'/Great Britain. Home Office.—London: Home Office, 1990.
  Possible reforms of the liquor licensing system in England and Wales: a consultation paper/Great Britain. Home Office.-London: Home Office, 1993.
  The Prison disciplinary system: consultation document on L. J. Woolfs proposal that boards of visitors … /Great Britain Home Office. Inspectorate of Prisons.—London: Home Office, 1991.
  Prison sanitation: proposals for the ending of slopping out/Great Britain. Inspectorate of Prisons—London: Home Office, 1989. Proposed changes in the immigration rules: consultation document/Great Britain. Home Office, Immigration and Nationality Department.—London: [Home Office Immigration and Nationality Department], 1993.
  Reforming the law on Sunday trading: a guide to the options for reform/Great Britain. Home Office,—London: HMSO, 1993—(Cm. 2300)
  The remand of alleged juvenile offenders: a consultation paper/Great Britain. Home Office. Criminal Policy Department. —London: Home Office, 1991.
  Review of Police discipline procedures: a consultation paper/Great Britain. Home Office.—[London]: Home Office, 1993.
  Squatting: a Home Office consultation paper/Great Britain. Home Office.—London: Home Office, 1991.
  Summer time: a consultation document/Great Britain. Home Office.—London: HMSO, 1989.—(Cm. 722).
  Technology for the enforcement of road traffic law: [consultation paper]—Great Britain. Home Office.—London: Home Office, 1989.
  Wheelclamping on private land: a consultation paper by the Home Office/Great Britain. Home Office.—[London]: Home Office, 1993.
  No central record is maintained of consultation documents not published as Green papers. The above list may not therefore be comprehensive.

  Legislation
  Mr. George
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many(a) private Members' Bills and (b) other public Bills have been passed within his sphere of responsibility in each year since 1979.

  Mr. Howard
  The information requested is given in the table.

  Private Members' and Public Bills, within the sphere of the Secretary of State for the Home Department's responsibility which have received Royal Assent since 1979

  Parliamentary Session

  Public Bills

  Private Members' and Private Peers' Bills

  1979–80

  5

  7

  1980–81

  4

  6

  1981–82

  3

  3

  487

  Parliamentary Session

  Public Bills

  Private Members' and Private Peers' Bills

  1982–83

  2

  5

  1983–84

  5

  5

  1984–85

  4

  7

  1985–86

  3

  4

  1986–87

  4

  6

  1987–88

  4

  4

  1988–89

  5

  2

  1989–90

  3

  4

  1990–91

  4

  6

  1991–92

  3

  3

  1992–93

  4

  5

  1 1993–94

  1

  0

  Total

  54

  67

  Oral and Written Answers given by Home Office Ministers in both Houses since the 1989–90 Session

  Commons Answers

  Lords Answers

  Parliamentary Session

  Priority Written1

  Ordinary Written

  Oral2

  Written

  Oral

  Total

  1989–90

  1,456

  1,455

  704

  157

  37

  3,809

  1990–91

  1,145

  1,273

  184

  154

  41

  2,797

  1991–92

  700

  700

  106

  70

  22

  1,598

  1992–93

  2,156

  2,526

  313

  222

  65

  5,282

  1993–943

  1,488

  2,026

  210

  191

  43

  3,958

  1Now known as Questions for a 'named day'.

  2Not all reached during Question Time.

  3Figures up to 19 July.

  Firearms
  Mr. Shersby
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many illegally held semiautomatic firearms have been confiscated by the police service in England and Wales during the most recent 12-month period for which figures are available.

  Mr. Maclean
  This information is not available centrally.

  Mr. Shersby
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what information he has concerning the provenance of firearms unlawfully imported into the country; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Maclean
  We have no hard information. The break-up of the former Soviet Union and the demise of the Warsaw pact has led to a greater availability of firearms on the world market. Her Majesty's customs are aware of this increased risk and are taking steps to counter it.

  Subject Access Requests
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many subject access requests were received by each police force in the last year; what estimate he has as to the percentage of those requests which were enforced subject access requests; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Maclean
  The number of subject access requests received by police forces in England and Wales, from 1 July 1993 to 30 June 1994, are given in the table. Applicants do not give reasons for requesting the disclosure and so it is not possible to estimate the percentage of the total number of requests which arise out of enforced subject access. However, the Metropolitan
  488
  1 To date.

  Parliamentary Questions
  Mr. George
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many questions received(a) oral and (b) written answers from Home Office Ministers in each year since 1989.

  Mr. Howard
  The information requested is given in the table.

  police national identification bureau considers that enforced subject access requests represents a large majority of the cases that are dealt with.

  Force

  Requests

  Avon and Somerset

  262

  Bedfordshire

  106

  Cambridgeshire

  34

  Cheshire

  150

  City of London

  33

  Cleveland

  102

  Cumbria

  30

  Derbyshire

  133

  Devon and Cornwall

  191

  Dorset

  109

  Durham

  42

  Dyfed-Powys

  60

  Essex

  243

  Gloucestershire

  34

  Greater Manchester

  372

  Gwent

  67

  Hampshire

  227

  Hertfordshire

  171

  Humberside

  551

  Kent

  547

  Lancashire

  170

  Leicestershire

  84

  Lincolnshire

  86

  Merseyside

  173

  Metropolitan

  3,821

  Norfolk

  98

  North Wales

  80

  North Yorkshire

  137

  Northamptonshire

  165

  Northumbria

  257

  Nottinghamshire

  237

  South Wales

  480

  South Yorkshire

  605

  Staffordshire

  807

  Suffolk

  111

  Surrey

  226

  Sussex

  253

  Thames Valley

  260

  Warwickshire

  48

  489

  Force

  Requests

  West Mercia

  87

  West Midlands

  414

  West Yorkshire

  459

  Wiltshire

  59

  Total

  12,581

  Immigration
  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will list the research projects on immigration and resettlement policy commissioned by his Department of which the results and final reports for which his Department has not published in part or in full in 1994; and if he will set out the reasons for the decisions not to publish.

  Mr. Maclean
  I refer the hon. Member to the reply given to a question from the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr. Soley) on 18 July,Official Report, columns 34–35.

  Current projects on immigration and settlement policy are
  Manpower allocation planning for the immigration control. Study of factors which affect the decision to seek British citizenship.
  The experiences of settlement among refugees with special reference to housing and employment.
  The experiences of settlement among Vietnamese refugees.

  Reports on these projects have not been finalised; but when they have been, they will be published.

  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many different individuals have been detained under Immigration Acts powers during the recent 12-month period; and of these how many were(a) asylum seekers and (b) others.

  Mr. Nicholas Baker
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will list(a) the prisons and (b) the police stations used to detain people under Immigration Acts powers; and if he will give the numbers so detained for the latest available date.

  Mr. Maclean
  All prisons and police cells are designated places of detention for the purpose of detention under the Immigration Act 1971.

  Details are given in the following table of people detained on 19 July 1994 in Prison Service establishments. Similar details are not available for police cells and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Immigration detainees held in

  (i) Prison

  Numbers

  Aberdeen

  2

  Armley

  2

  Bedford

  1

  Belfast

  2

  Belmarsh

  8

  Blakenhurst

  4

  Bristol

  1

  Brinsford

  9

  Brixton

  3

  Bullingdon

  30

  Cardiff

  1

  Chelmsford

  3

  Cookham Wood

  1

  490

  (i) Prison

  Numbers

  Dorchester

  3

  Durham

  1

  Edinburgh

  1

  Elmley

  3

  Erlestoke

  1

  Exeter

  2

  Feltham

  2

  Gloucester

  1

  Greenock

  7

  Haslar

  24

  Highdown

  14

  Holloway

  5

  Hull

  5

  Lewes

  2

  Liverpool

  3

  Manchester

  13

  Norwich

  2

  Pentonville

  4

  Reading

  1

  Rochester

  28

  Shrewsbury

  2

  Swaleside

  1

  Swansea

  1

  Wandsworth

  9

  Winchester

  4

  Winson Green

  38

  The Wolds

  2

  Wormwood Scrubs

  2

  Total

  248

  (ii) Police Celts

  12

  Vehicle Emissions
  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, pursuant to the reply to the hon. Member for Ceredigion and Pembroke, North of 13 July,Official Report, column 659, if he will set out the reasons why the information requested on prosecutions pressed for vehicle exhaust emissions is not available centrally; and if he will make it his policy to establish arrangements for the central collection of such data.

  Mr. Maclean
  The information which is collected on court proceedings for summary motoring offences uses a classification system which does not currently distinguish exhaust emission offences from other offences of vehicles in defective condition. It would be possible to provide the information requested only by approaching individual! courts, and this would be disproportionately expensive. Decisions on exactly which information is collected on summary motoring court proceedings, of which there were about 2·5 million in 1992, take into account the need to provide statistics of most interest to Ministers, Members of Parliament and others, the need for the data collection to be cost-effective and the need to reduce the total burden of information gathering on the police, who currently have to provide this information. In any future review of the classification scheme used, account will be taken of all representations which have been made.

  Fire Services
  Mr. Alton
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what assessment he has made of the need to provide adequate coverage against fires in determining the future of fire stations serving Liverpool; and if he will make a statement.
  491
  Mr. Maclean
  My right hon. and learned Friend would not be prepared to approve proposals by the Merseyside fire and civil defence authority for the closure of any fire station in Merseyside unless he was satisfied, on the advice of Her Majesty's inspectorate of fire services, that the authority would continue to maintain the nationally recommended minimum standards of fire cover.

  Prisoners (Psychiatric Treatment)
  Mr. McCartney
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) if he will give a breakdown of the referrals for psychiatric treatment of prisoners broken down by category for each year since 1984.

  (2) how many referrals for prisoners were for the treatment of psychiatric disorders for each year since 1984.

  Mr. Maclean
  Responsibility for these matters has been delegated to the director general of the Prison Service, who has been asked to arrange for a reply to be given.

  Letter from Derek Lewis to Mr. Ian McCartney, dated 21 July 1994:
  The Home Secretary has asked me to reply to your recent Questions about referrals for psychiatric treatment, broken down by category for each year since 1984.
  This information is not available in the form requested. However, the table below gives the number of prisoners seen by NHS consultant psychiatrists and those transferred under Sections 47 and 48 of the Mental Health Act 1983 to outside psychiatric facilities for treatment, for 1986 onwards.

  Year

  Number of prisoners referred to NHS psychiatrists

  Number of prisoners transferred under (Section 47 and 48 of the MHA 1983)

  1986–87

  9,975

  159

  1987–88

  9,410

  183

  1988–89

  13,745

  184

  1989–90

  12,670

  220

  1990–91

  13,396

  323

  1991–92

  17,583

  379

  1992–93

  16,737

  625

  The study of psychiatric disorder in sentenced prisoners carried out by Professor Gunn et al from the Institute of Psychiatry in 1990 gave an estimated prevalence of psychiatric disorder by diagnostic group as follows:

  Diagnoses

  Per cent.

  Psychosis

  1·9

  Neurotic disorder

  5·3

  Personality disorder

  8·2

  Sexual deviation

  1·9

  Organic disorder

  0·9

  It is likely that referrals and transfers shown would follow the same prevalence of diagnosis.

  Prisoners (Medical Treatment)
  Mr. McCartney
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, how many prisoners were treated by the private medical sector for each year since 1984.

  Mr Maclean
  Responsibility for this matter has been delegated to the Director General of the Prison Service, who has been asked to arrange for a reply to be given.

  Letter from Derek Lewis to Mr. Ian McCartney, dated 21 July 1994:
  492
  The Home Secretary has asked me to reply to your recent Question about the number of prisoners treated by the private medical sector for each year since 1984.
  I regret that this information is not collected centrally and could only be provided at disproportionate cost.

  Mr. McCartney
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many prisoners were treated by NHS hospital trusts for each year since 1984.

  Mr. Maclean
  Responsibility for this matter has been delegated to the Director General of the Prison Service, who has been asked to arrange for a reply to be given.

  Letter from Derek Lewis to Mr. Ian McCartney, dated 21 July 1994:
  The Home Secretary has asked me to reply to your recent Question about the number of prisoners treated by NHS hospital trusts for each year since 1984.
  The information you request is only available from 1986 onwards and is set out in the table. The status of NHS hospitals, trust or otherwise, is not recorded.

  Year

  Number of occasions which prisoners attended NHS out-patient departments

  Number of transfers to NHS hospitals for in-patient treatment or observation

  1986–87

  17,757

  1,908

  1987–88

  18,006

  1,964

  1988–89

  18,494

  1,964

  1989–90

  18,740

  1,988

  1990–91

  18,402

  1,887

  1991–92

  24,420

  2,230

  1992–93

  23,959

  2,240

  Identity Cards
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will list the officials and organisations involved in his review of whether a national identity card should be introduced; when this review is to be concluded; and if he will place briefing papers in the Library.

  Mr. Maclean
  The question of a national identity card scheme is kept under review. If it were decided to pursue the idea there would be a full consultation exercise.

  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what are the implications of the existence of identity cards elsewhere in the EC for the United Kingdom; and if identity cards are subject to subsidiarity rules.

  Mr. Maclean
  There is an obligation under Community law to recognise national identity cards of other member states which are issued for travel purposes. The concept of subsidiarity applies to proposals for Community legislation. There are no such proposals in respect of identity cards.

  Road Death Victims
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) what is his response to each of the specific recommendations set out in chapter 5 of the report, "Support for the Families of Road Death Victims", published by an independent working party on 18 July;

  (2) what is his general response to the recommendations set out in chapter 5 of the report, "Support for the Families

  493
  of Road Death Victims," published by an independent working party on 18 July, a copy of which has been sent to him;

  (3) what action he proposes to take on each of the specific recommendations set out in chapter 5 of the report, "Support for the Families of Road Death Victims", published by an independent working party on 18 July, a copy of which has been sent to him.

  Mr. Maclean
  It is too soon to announce any response to the report, "Support for the Families of Road Death Victims", which was only published on 18 July. Chapter 5 of the report makes a number of recommendations aimed at several Government Departments and other bodies, which will need to be carefully considered by those concerned.

  Prison Service
  Mr. Hoyle
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Tooting on 1 December 1993,Official Report, column 623, listing the bonus of the Director General of the Prison Service, for the period of 6 January to 31 March 1993, if he is now in a position to indicate the bonuses paid to the Director General of the Prison Service for the whole of 1993.

  Mr. Howard
  ; The Director General of the Prison Service received a performance bonus of £35,000 for the period 1 April 1993 to 31 March 1994.

  Geneva Convention
  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what investigations the British Government have undertaken into the conduct of individuals suspected of committing, between 1964 and 1989, offences under the Geneva Convention Act 1957 relating to article 147 of the Geneva convention directive to the protection of civilians in time of war.

  Mr. Maclean
  Any such investigations would be carried out by the police. They have no central record of the number, if any, of investigations carried out.

  Police Functions
  Mr. McAllion
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department which organisations were consulted on the issues covered by the Home Office review of core police functions.

  Mr. Maclean
  The organisations consulted on the review of police core and ancillary tasks are the Association of Chief Police Officers, the Superintendents Association, the Police Federation, the Association of County Councils and the Association of Metropolitan Authorities.

  Mr. McAllion
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the nature, length of time and extent of the consultation exercise that he intends to carry out in response to the recommendations of the Home Office review of core police functions.

  Mr. Maclean
  My right hon. and learned Friend expects to receive a report on the review of police core and ancillary tasks at the turn of the year. Consultation is 494
  currently under way with the Association of Chief Police Officers, the Superintendents Association, the Police Federation, the Association of County Councils and the Association of Metropolitan Authorities. My right hon. and learned Friend will decide on the appropriate level and type of wider consultation in the light of the recommendations made by the review.

  Paul Malone
  Mrs. Jane Kennedy
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when his Department will make known to Paul Malone its decision following the report from the Metropolitan police.

  Mr. Maclean
  Once the inquiries into Mr. Malone's case are completed my right hon. and learned Friend will decide as quickly as possible whether there are grounds for action on his part in relation to the representations about the safety of his conviction. Mr. Malone will then be informed of his decision.

  Mrs. Jane Kennedy
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when the Metropolitan police investigation into the case of Paul Malone, H26911, commissioned by the Police Complaints Authority was concluded.

  Mr. Maclean
  I understand that the authority received a report from the investigating officer on 8 June in the light of which it has asked for further information to be provided on certain points.

  Mrs. Jane Kennedy
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when the Police Complaints Authority will complete its examination of the report of the Metropolitan police into the case of Paul Malone.

  Mr. Maclean
  I understand that the authority expects shortly to be in a position to issue the appropriate interim statement as to its satisfaction with the conduct of the investigation in this case.

  Bouncers
  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what representations he has received regarding the regulation of the functions and duties of bouncers at licensed premises and clubs; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Maclean
  Since the beginning of this year, the Home Office has received three letters on the subject. I have also had a meeting and related correspondence with the British Entertainment and Discotheque Association and the hon. Member for Makerfield (Mr. McCartney).

  Asylum Seekers
  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what are the total numbers of asylum seekers under the age of 18 years held in detention at the latest available date; and what was the figure 12 months ago.

  Mr. Maclean
  On 19 July, there were six people under the age of 18 years who had at some stage sought asylum, and who were detained under the Immigration Act 1971.

  The corresponding figure for 12 months ago is not available and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Carol Birch
  Mr. Ashton
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) what representations were made to his Department by the court in Parma, Majorca regarding the appearance of a defence witness Carol Birch to testify on behalf of Mr. Russell Torr of Doncaster road, Carlton in Lidnick, Worksop, Nottingham; and what responses they made;

  (2) if his Department had access to the name, address and passport number of Carol Birch and a copy of the statement she made to the court in Palma, Majorca; if this statement was made available to the trial of Russell Ton and what was the reason for the decision; and if he will make a statement regarding what efforts were made to contact Carol Birch as requested by the court in Palma.

  Mr. Maclean
  On 7 December 1993, the Home Office received from the Provincial Tribunal, Palma de Mallorca, a summons to be served on Ms Carol Birch calling for her appearance before the tribunal for the purposes of proceedings concerning Mr. Russell Torr. The tribunal provided a passport number, but not a full address. Article 14 of the European convention on mutual assistance in criminal matters, to which the United Kingdom and. Spain are parties, provides, in the case of a summons, that the issuing authority shall provide the address of the person to be served. In these circumstances, the tribunal was advised on 17 December 1993 that the summons had not been served because the address provided was not sufficient. The tribunal was advised of this again on 12 January 1994. The Home Office has no knowledge in this case of a statement made by Ms Birch.

  South Wales Police (Fraud Cases)
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what consultations he has had with the chief constable of South Wales police concerning the inability to take on fraud cases pending the re-provisioning of the travel and miscellaneous expenses budget of the fraud squad; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Maclean
  The chief constable has assured me that all fraud complaints will continue to be investigated.

  Merseyside Police
  Mr. Parry
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many man-hours annually the Merseyside police expend in the execution of warrants issued to Merseyside and North-Western Electricity Board; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Maclean
  This information is not collected and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Coroners Courts
  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the number of occasions since 1985 when there have been judicial reviews, or other proceedings in court, concerning the verdicts of, or proceedings in, coroners courts; and if he will deposit any record of each in the Library.

  Mr. Maclean
  Information in the precise form sought by the hon. Member is not readily available. I will write to the hon. Member with the available information in due course.

  Ministerial Visits
  Mrs. Roche
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many overseas visits he and each of his Ministers have made between 1 January and 30 June; during how many he, or each of his Ministers, participated in fund-raising activities for the Conservative party; and if he will name the Ministers and the countries in which these activities took place.

  Mr. Howard
  Between 1 January and 30 June 1994, Ministers in my Department made six overseas visits in their official capacity. None of these involved fund-raising activities for the Conservative party.

  Car Thefts
  Mr. Nigel Evans
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) how many car thieves were apprehended during 1993–94 as a result of the tracker system;

  (2) what estimate the Government have made of the impact of tracker systems on the number of cars stolen each year;

  (3) how many stolen cars were recovered in 1993–94; and how many installed with the tracker system were recovered during the same period.

  Mr. Maclean
  Information on the number of arrests attributable to the tracker system is not collected centrally.

  The Home Office has made no assessment of the impact of vehicle-tracking systems, of which tracker is but one, on the number of cars stolen. This will be a matter for the police service. I understand that it is still too early to make any such assessment.

  The provisional figure for stolen vehicles recovered in England and Wales, excluding Dyfed-Powys, in calendar year 1993 is 350,862. I understand that, from September 1993, when the tracker system began operations, to the end of March 1994, 24 stolen vehicles fitted with tracker equipment were recovered.

  Fires
  Mrs. Roche
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many(a) children and (b) adults were (i) injured or (ii) killed in fires in 1993 in houses in multiple occupation; and what proportion the fatality figure of the total domestic fatalities was caused by fire.

  Mr. Maclean
  Information is not available for 1993. For 1992, the age of fatal and non-fatal casualties from fires attended by local authority fire brigades in houses in multiple occupancies is published in table 23 of the Home Office publication, "Fire Statistics, United Kingdom 1992". Information on deaths from accidents occurring in the home and communal establishments, by cause, is published by the Office of Population Censuses and Surveys in table 3 of "Mortality Statistics 1992, Injury and Poisoning: England and Wales", series DH4 No. 18. Copies of these publications are in the Library.

  Criminal Injuries Compensation
  Mr. Sheerman
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps he is taking to ensure that the victims of violent crime will be given the right to appeal against decisions made under the reformed criminal injuries compensation scheme.
  497
  Mr. Maclean
  Applicants who are dissatisfied with the initial decision of the criminal injuries compensation authority have an unfettered right of appeal. The arrangements for considering appeals are described in paragraphs 32–37 of the White Paper "Compensating Victims of Violent Crime: Changes to the Criminal Injuries Compensating Scheme", Cm. 2434.

  Under these arrangements a dissatisfied applicant may request reconsideration of his case by the authority. This will be an internal review of the case conducted by a more senior member of the authority and may result in the original decision being confirmed, overturned or otherwise altered.

  An applicant who remains dissatisfied after this review may appeal to an appeals panel. The panel, which is independent of the authority and Ministers, will be able to deal with the appeal on the papers or by offering the appellant an oral hearing at which he may present his case.

  Mr. Sheerman
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what representations he has had regarding his plans to reform the criminal injuries compensation scheme.

  Mr. Maclean
  Since we announced our intention in November 1992 to introduce a revised criminal injuries compensation scheme we have received representations from a number of hon. Members, either in writing on their own behalf or on behalf of constituents, as well as from the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board, various organisa tions including representative bodies of the legal profession, victim support local schemes and the national office, the Trade Union Congress, the Police Federation and members of the public.

  The representations have covered a range from the underlying principles and rationale of the new scheme to questions about how it will be administered.

  The new arrangements came into effect on 1 April 1994.

  Mr. Sheerman
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what action he is taking to provide adequate assessments of post-traumatic stress and sexual abuse for victims of violent crime under the reformed criminal injuries compensation scheme.

  Mr. Maclean
  The Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority which administers the new scheme is responsible, like the board which preceded it, for ensuring that sufficient medical evidence is obtained to enable the applicant's injuries and their after-effects to be correctly assessed.

  Animal Procedures Committee
  Mr. Morley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) if he will make a statement on the recent report by the Animal Procedures Committee on regulatory toxicology and the recommendations it contains;

  (2) which of those recommendations made in the report of the Animal Procedures Committee on regulatory toxicology he intends to incorporate into Home Office policy.

  Mr. Maclean
  I refer the hon. Member to the reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, South-West (Mr. Page) on 19 July,Official Report, column 153.

  Mr. Nigel Griffiths
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will list the types and numbers 498
  of cosmetics tests carried out on animals in 1992; and if he will give a further breakdown of these figures indicating which tests involved raw ingredients and which involved finished products.

  Mr. Maclean
  A special exercise undertaken by the Home Office at the request of the Animal Procedures Committee showed that 2,227 animals were used in cosmetics tests during 1992, a fall of nearly 40 per cent. on the previous year's figure. Of the animals used during 1992, 1,826 were involved in tests on ingredients; the remaining 401 involved various tests on a single finished product.

  I understand that a more detailed breakdown of the types and numbers of cosmetics tests carried out during 1993 will appear in the forthcoming annual report of the Animal Procedures Committee. I have asked for a similar analysis to be undertaken in respect of 1992, and I shall write to the hon. Member with the results.

  Drugs Prevention
  Mr. Parry
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement on his recent visit to the drugs prevention initiative in Liverpool; and what were his findings.

  Mr. Howard
  I visited the Home Office drugs prevention initiative team at its offices in Liverpool on 17 June. In addition to meeting the team members, I met representatives of the city council, the health authority and people from some of the local projects that the team is supporting.

  I was impressed with the work which the local team were doing to help the local community fight the drug problem. I hope that it will be possible for me to see more of the projects with which they are involved in a future visit.

  Prisoners (HIV)
  Mr. Boyes
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many prison inmates were found to be HIV positive in each prison; and what counselling is taking place in respect of HIV-positive prisoners.

  Mr. Maclean
  Responsibility for this matter has been delegated to the Director General of the Prison Service, who has been asked to arrange for a reply to be given.

  Letter from Derek Lewis to Mr. Roland Boyes, dated 21 July 1994:
  The Home Secretary has asked me to reply to your recent Question about the number of prisoners found to be HIV positive in each prison and what counselling is provided for prisoners in respect of HIV.
  At 30 June 1994 there were 45 prisoners confirmed to have HIV in the prisons of England and Wales. To protect the medical confidentiality of the prisoners, there locations are not disclosed.
  There are 207 centrally trained HIV counsellors throughout the prison establishments of England and Wales. Pre and post counselling is offered to all prisoners who are considering having an HIV antibody test, either through prison health care centres or genito-urinary medicine clinics operating within prison establishments.

  Prison Statistics
  Ms Ruddock
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will publish a table giving the numbers of(a) category A prisoners, (b) category B

  499
  prisoners, (c) category C prisoners, (d) category D prisoners, (e) sentenced adult males awaiting categorisation, (f) young offenders categorised as suitable for open conditions, (g) young offenders categorised as suitable for closed conditions, (h) women prisoners categorised as suitable for open conditions, (i) women prisoners categorised as suitable for closed conditions and (j) remand prisoners in England and Wales at the latest available date.

  Mr. Maclean
  [holding answer 20 July 1994]: Responsibility for this matter has been delegated to the Director General of the Prison Service, who has been asked to arrange for a reply to be given.

  Letter from Derek Lewis to Ms Joan Ruddock, dated 21 July 1994:
  The Home Secretary has asked me to reply to your recent Question about the numbers of prisoners by category.
  On 18 July, 690 category A prisoners were held in Prison Service establishments.
  Provisional information for 30 June indicates that the number of category B, category C, and category D prisoners were respectively 6,050, 15,880 and 6,150.
  On 31 May, 12,530 remand prisoners were held, including 96 in police cells.
  No information is available centrally on the number of sentenced males awaiting categorisation or the number of young offenders or women categorised as suitable for either open or closed conditions.

  Ms Ruddock
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what was the(a) number and (b) percentage of prisoners received into prison in England and Wales in 1993 who were remand prisoners.

  Mr. Maclean
  [holding answer 20 July. 1994]: Responsibility for this matter has been delegated to the Director General of the Prison Service, who has been asked to arrange for a reply to be given.

  Letter from Derek Lewis to Ms Joan Ruddock, dated 21 July 1994:
  The Home Secretary has asked me to reply to your recent Question about the number and percentage of prisoners received into prisons in England and Wales in 1993 who were remand prisoners.
  The statistics of receptions of different categories of prisoner involves the repeat counting of a single prisoner received successively as untried, convicted unsentenced and sentenced.
  In 1993, approximately 53,000 untried persons and 30,200 convicted unsentenced persons, some previously received as untried, were received into Prison Service establishments in England and Wales.
  There were about 74,700 receptions of sentenced prisoners, some previously received as untried or convicted unsentenced or both, and approximately 4,600 non-criminal receptions.
  The total of the untried and convicted unsentenced receptions represents 51 per cent. of all receptions.

  Ms Ruddock
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will give a breakdown of all prisoners in England and Wales by offence group, at the latest available date.

  Mr. Maclean
  [holding answer 20 July 1994]: Responsibility for this matter has been delegated to the Director General of the Prison Service, who has been asked to arrange for a reply to be given.

  Letter from Derek Lewis to Ms Joan Ruddock, dated 21 July 1994:
  500
  The Home Secretary has asked me to reply to your recent Question asking for a breakdown of the prison population by offence group at the latest available date.
  The attached table gives the available provisional information for sentenced prisoners held in Prison Service establishments on 31 May.

  Population in Prison Service establishments under sentence at 31 May 1994 by offence group—England and Wales

  Offence group

  Number of persons

  Offences with immediate custodial sentence

  Violence against the person

  7,720

  Sexual offences

  3,260

  Burglary

  5,010

  Robbery

  5,010

  Theft and handling

  3,190

  Fraud and Forgery

  880

  Drugs offences

  3,370

  Other offences

  3,750

  Offences not recorded

  2,850

  All offences

  35,050

  In default of a fine

  440

  All sentenced prisoners

  35,490

  Ms Ruddock
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many(a) male and (b) female prisoners were received into prisons in England and Wales in each of the last 10 years.

  Mr. Maclean
  [holding answer 20 July 1994]: Responsibility for this matter has been delegated to the Director General of the Prison Service, who has been asked to arrange for a reply to be given.

  Letter from Derek Lewis to Ms Joan Ruddock, dated 21 July 1994:
  The Home Secretary has asked me to reply to your recent Question about the number of male and female prisoners received into prisons in England and Wales in each of the last ten years.
  Information on the number of receptions into Prison Service establishments in England and Wales for the years 1983 to 1992 is published annually in "Prison Statistics England and Wales" (table 1.14 of the 1992 edition, Cm. 2581). A copy of this publication is available in the Library of the House.
  The attached table shows provisional information for 1993.

  Receptions into Prison Service establishments in England and Wales in 19931

  Male

  Female

  Untried

  51,120

  2,670

  Convicted, Unsentenced2

  28,730

  1,520

  Sentenced2 3

  71,010

  3,730

  Non-criminal

  4,370

  250

  1Provisional figures.

  2Includes some prisoners previously received as untried or convicted unsentenced.

  3Includes fine defaulters.

  Ms Ruddock
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many remand prisoners were received into prisons in England and Wales in each of the last 10 years.

  Mr. Maclean
  [holding answer 20 July 1994]: Responsibility for this matter has been delegated to the Director General of the Prison Service, who has been asked to arrange for a reply to be given.
  501
  Letter from Derek Lewis to Ms Joan Ruddock, dated 21 July 1994:
  The Home Secretary has asked me to reply to your recent Question asking how many remand prisoners were received into prisons in England and Wales in each of the last ten years.
  Information on the number of receptions into Prison Service establishments for the years 1983 to 1992 is published annually in "Prison Statistics England and Wales" (table 1.14 of the 1992 edition, Cm 2581), a copy of which is available in the Library of the House.
  Provisional information for 1993 shows that 53,800 prisoners were received into Prison Service establishments as untried and 30,200 as convicted unsentenced during 1993. The convicted unsentenced figure will include some prisoners previously received as untried.

  Ms Ruddock
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what was the remand population in England and Wales on the last day of each of the last 36 months; and what percentage of the prison population remands formed on each occasion.

  Mr. Maclean
  [holding answer 20 July 1994]:Responsibility for this matter has been delegated to the Director General of the Prison Service, who has been asked to arrange for a reply to be given.

  Letter from Derek Lewis to Ms Joan Ruddock, dated 21 July 1994:
  The Home Secretary has asked me to reply to your recent Question asking what was the remand population in England and Wales on the last day of each of the last 36 months; and what was the percentage of the prison population remands formed on each occasion.

  This information is given in the following table.

  Population of remand prisoners, in England and Wales, May 1991 to May 19941

  Date

  Remand population

  Percentage of total population in custody

  1994

  May

  12,530

  26

  April

  12,158

  25

  March

  11,885

  24

  February

  12,109

  25

  January

  12,109

  26

  1993

  December

  10,763

  24

  November

  11,895

  25

  October

  11,829

  25

  September

  11,445

  25

  August

  11,407

  25

  July

  10,572

  24

  June

  10,632

  24

  May

  10,181

  24

  April

  9,997

  23

  March

  9,996

  23

  February

  9,933

  23

  January

  9,433

  23

  1992

  December

  8,490

  21

  November

  9,459

  22

  October

  9,605

  22

  September

  10,020

  22

  August

  10,128

  22

  July

  9,942

  21

  June

  10,404

  22

  May

  10,294

  22

  April

  10,646

  22

  March

  10,678

  22

  February

  10,747

  23

  January

  10,661

  23

  502

  Date

  Remand population

  Percentage of total population in custody

  1991

  December

  9,881

  22

  November

  10,654

  22

  October

  10,797

  23

  September

  10,754

  23

  August

  10,357

  22

  July

  10,039

  22

  June

  9,877

  22

  May

  10,015

  22

  1Includes prisoners held in police cells.

  Ms Ruddock
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will give a breakdown by(a) age,(b)offence group, (c) gender and (d) ethnic group of all receptions into prisons in England and Wales in 1993.

  Mr. Maclean
  [holding answer 20 July 1994]: Responsibility for this matter has been delegated to the Director General of the Prison Service, who has been asked to arrange for a reply to be given.

  Letter from Derek Lewis to Ms Joan Ruddock, dated 21 July 1994:
  The Home Secretary has asked me to reply to your recent Question asking for a breakdown by (a) ages, (b) offence group, (c) gender and (d) ethnic group of all receptions into prisons in England and Wales in 1993.
  A breakdown by age and sex of receptions of untried and sentenced prisoners in 1993 is given in Table 5 of Home Office Statistical Bulletin 16/94 'The Prison Population in 1993 and Long Term Projections to 2001', a copy of which is in the library of the House.
  The readily available breakdown of receptions by ethnic group was given in the table for 1993 attached to my reply to your recent Question about a breakdown by ethnic origin for each of the last ten years.

  The breakdown by type of offence for sentenced receptions in 1993 is given in the attached table.

  Receptions into prison service establishments 1993: by type of offence

  Type of Offence

  Number

  All Offences

  52,100

  Violence Against the Person

  7,540

  Sexual Offences

  1,900

  Burglary

  9,550

  Robbery

  3,160

  Theft & Handling

  9,100

  Frauds & Forgery

  1,790

  Drug Offences

  3,180

  Other Offences

  12,230

  Offences Not Recorded

  3,640

  Note:

  Excludes any prisoners held solely in police cells.

  Excludes fine defaulters.

  Ms Ruddock
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many and what percentage of(a) male and (b) female foreign nationals in prison had been convicted of drug offences at the latest available date.

  Mr. Maclean
  [holding answer 20 July 1994]:Responsibility for this matter has been delegated to the Director General of the Prison Service, who has been asked to arrange for a reply to be given.
  503
  Letter from Derek Lewis to Ms Joan Ruddock, dated 21 July 1994:
  The Home Secretary has asked me to reply to your recent Question about the number and percentage of male and female foreign nationals in prison who had been convicted of drug offences at the latest available date.
  On 31 May 1994 in Prison Service establishments in England and Wales 634 sentenced male non-British citizens, excluding fine defaulters, were recorded centrally as being under sentence for drugs offences, or thirty per cent. of sentenced male non-British citizens.
  The equivalent figures for females are 143 and 67 per cent.

  Correspondence
  Ms Ruddock
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when the hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford will receive a reply to her letters of 3 February, 12 April and 31 May concerning Mr. and Mrs. Kwabena Aidoobofour.

  Mr. Nicholas Baker
  [holding answer 7 July 1994]: I will write to the hon. Member.

  Mr. Lidington
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, when he expects to reply to the letter dated 16 March sent to his Department by the hon. Member for Aylesbury on behalf of his constituent Mr. WJO.

  Mr. Maclean
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Fareham (Mr. Lloyd) replied on 20 July.

AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD

  Agricultural Development Advisory Service,
  Mr. Barnes
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what information she holds on surveys by ADAS in the past two years on agricultural land in the Staveley area; and if she will make a statement.

  Mr. Jack
  My Department has commissioned no such work from ADAS in the area in question since 1 July 1992.

  Environmentally Sensitive Areas
  Mr. Harvey
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what performance indicators are used to assess the effect of environmentally sensitive area management; and if she will make a statement.

  Mr. Jack
  For each environmentally sensitive area there are performance indicators related to the specific objectives of the scheme. Booklets summarising these objectives and performance indicators have been placed in the Library of the House of Commons.

  A programme for monitoring the environmental impact of the scheme is in place and will enable us to judge progress towards achievement of the objectives and associated performance indicators. Reports on the results of the monitoring will be published preparatory to the proposed five-yearly reviews of each ESA.

  Set-aside
  Mr. Tipping
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many holdings in each county in England had entered into the five-year set-aside scheme in the year 1992–93.
  504
  Mr. Jack
  The table gives the total number of holdings which had entered into an agreement under the scheme in each county up to 1992 when the scheme closed. These figures do not take account of subsequent withdrawals or transfers of ownership. Information on these could be included only at disproportionate cost.

  Five Year set-aside scheme: number of holdings by county

  Number of holdings

  Avon

  56

  Bedfordshire

  86

  Berkshire

  64

  Buckinghamshire

  161

  Cambridgeshire

  138

  Cheshire

  41

  Cleveland

  9

  Cornwall

  136

  Cumbria

  12

  Derbyshire

  43

  Devon

  78

  Dorset

  60

  Durham

  29

  Essex

  179

  Gloucestershire

  139

  Greater London

  19

  Greater Manchester

  9

  Hampshire

  110

  Hereford and Worcestershire

  78

  Hertfordshire

  77

  Humberside

  72

  Isle of Wight

  10

  Kent

  172

  Lancashire

  16

  Leicestershire

  56

  Lincolnshire

  104

  Merseyside

  14

  West Midlands

  6

  Norfolk

  155

  Northamptonshire

  119

  Northumberland

  45

  Nottinghamshire

  42

  Oxfordshire

  172

  Shropshire

  36

  Somerset

  62

  Staffordshire

  47

  Suffolk

  228

  Surrey

  60

  East Sussex

  105

  West Sussex

  94

  Tyne and Wear

  18

  Warwickshire

  87

  Wiltshire

  114

  North Yorkshire

  114

  South Yorkshire

  20

  West Yorkshire

  15

  England

  3,507

  Central Veterinary Laboratory
  Mr. Evennett
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when the annual report and accounts for the Central Veterinary Laboratory are due to be published.

  Mr. Jack
  The Central Veterinary Laboratory's annual report and accounts was published on 21 July 1994. Copies are available in the House Library. The report demonstrates the continuing progress and success of the laboratory as a next steps agency and I would like to congratulate the chief executive and his staff on their considerable achievements during the year.

  Agriculture Council
  Mr. Evennett
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what was the outcome of the Agriculture Council held in Brussels on 18 and 19 July; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Jack
  My right hon. Friend the then Secretary of State represented the United Kingdom at this Council whose principal outcome was agreement on the agricultural prices for 1994–95 and the associated proposals on milk quotas.

  The package of measures agreed met all the United Kingdom's main objectives, including significantly reining back agricultural expenditure in 1995. Among our specific objectives which were met were: the rejection of the Commission's proposal to reduce milk quotas by 1 per cent. in 1994–95 and confirmation that there would be no quota cut in 1995–96; a reduction in butter prices for 1994–95 of 3 per cent. provision to allow the United Kingdom to allocate, across the board, the 70,000 tonnes of milk quota remaining from last year's 0·6 per cent. increase; confirmation that export refunds on whisky, to offset the higher price of Community grain, will continue, worth about £20 million per annum to the United Kingdom industry; rejection of the proposed cut in linseed aid which would have diverted producers into alternative crops such as rapeseed and flax with potentially increased budgetary costs—in the event, the Council increased this aid from 85 to 87 ecu/tonne; and measures to contain expenditure, especially on beef where the regional ceilings for beef special premium for several member states, though not the United Kingdom, were substantially reduced.

  Only when all my concerns on milk had been met was my right hon. Friend prepared to accept confirmation of the milk quota increases agreed last year for Italy, Spain and Greece. These will apply for 1994–95 only, for Italy and Greece, and definitively for Spain.

  The Council also agreed, at my insistence, measures to simplify the sheep annual premium scheme, so as to make it easier for members of producer groups to claim premium. This is an important deregulatory measure. It also agreed to put in place a short-term apple orchard grubbing scheme.

  The overall package will lead to substantial savings for the 1995 EC budget and ensure that the agricultural guideline can be respected. This excludes expenditure in 1995 resulting from the application of the agrimonetary system since September 1992. My right hon. Friend made it clear that the United Kingdom would not agree to any breach or increase of the guideline and that further proposals for savings would be required if it appeared that total expenditure could not be contained within the guideline.

  The main elements of the price proposals were agreed unanimously although Denmark opposed the beef aspects. The milk quota proposals were agreed by qualified majority, the Benelux countries and Denmark voting against. The United Kingdom supported the whole package which, overall, represents a very good deal for United Kingdom farmers, taxpayers and consumers.

  On bovine spongiform encephalopathy, the German Minister announced that that country's proposed unilateral measures would not be brought into effect. This followed a number of changes to the rules agreed in the Standing Veterinary Committee which met simultaneously with the Council. This will remove uncertainty from our beef
  506
  industry, confirming as it does that all member states now accept that British beef is safe. Their decision wholly vindicates the Government's insistence that our policy on this issue must be based firmly and solely on science.

  Finally, the Council agreed to consider ways of simplifying the common agricultural policy in order to reduce the regulation and red tape imposed on farmers. We circulated a paper listing several areas where our farmers have experienced problems. This will be considered alongside suggestions from other member states.

DUCHY OF LANCASTER

  Political Advisers
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what proposals he has to strengthen the guidelines in relation to the job descriptions of political advisers in relation to their contacts with political parties and their activists.

  Mr. Robert G. Hughes
  Political special advisers are bound generally by the rules on political activity applicable to other civil servants, with specific exemptions. They may, with the approval of their Minister, attend party functions and maintain contact with party members, and take part in policy reviews conducted by their party. In addition, and also subject to approval by their Minister, special advisers are allowed to involve themselves in local politics. I have no plans to change these arrangements.

  Small Businesses
  Mr. David Shaw
  To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster if he will make a statement on the achievements of(a) his policies and (b) his Department in helping small businesses over the last 12 months as against the previous 12 months; if he will publish the performance indicators by which his Department monitors those achievements and the statistical results of such monitoring; and if he will set out his targets to help small businesses in the next year.

  Mr. David Hunt
  My Department plays a full role in the Government's policies to assist the development of small business in the United Kingdom. Work carried out by this Department over the last 12 months to assist small businesses includes:implementing the measures set out in the White Paper on science, engineering and technology, notably the technology foresight programme which encourages the participation of all kinds of business, and the restructuring of the research councils, which has made them more responsive to the needs of the business community generally;
  encouraging greater participation of small business in EC research and development programmes, for example through CRAFT scheme which facilitates their involvement in the industrial technologies programme;
  encouraging Government Departments and agencies to assist business, including small firms, through citizens charter initiatives such as the revised employer's charter produced by the Contributions Agency, and the Charter Standard statement and code of practice produced by Companies House;
  continuing to work closely with the DTI's deregulation unit on the implementation of "Working With Business", the code of good practice for enforcement agencies;
  overseeing the competing for quality programme across central Government. This includes market testing and/or contracting-out many activities employing between one and 20 people before tendering, thus offering opportunities for small firms to bid for contracts.

  Performance Targets
  Mr. Trend
  To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what key performance targets he has set for Her Majesty's Stationery Office for the current year.

  Mr. Robert G. Hughes
  The key performance targets for Her Majesty's Stationery Office for 1994 are:

  (i) to achieve a current cost operating profit of f11–9 million before exceptional items;

  (ii) for print, to achieve 96 per cent. of all orders delivered to time, and 95 per cent. of all orders from the print storage and distribution warehouse to be delivered on time;

  (iii) for the publications centre to achieve dispatch tunes for customers' mail, EDI and telephone orders of 85 per cent. within four working days of receipt and 96 per cent. within five working days;

  (iv) for business supplies to dispatch 99 per cent. of validated orders for stock catalogue items within two working days of receipt and for 96 per cent. of items to be dispatched first time from stock.

  Civil Servants
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster which permanent secretaries of Departments are not career civil servants: whether he will publish in the Official Report full details of their career outside and inside Whitehall; and which of them have been engaged in political activities denied to First Division civil servants in their earlier capacities.

  Mr. David Hunt
  The following were recruited to the Civil Service at permanent secretary or second permanent secretary level.

  A. P. Budd—HM Treasury

  Sir T. Burns—HM Treasury

  Professor K. C. Calman—Department of Health

  Professor D. E. N. Davies—Ministry of Defence

  R. A. Langlands—Department of Health

  Dr. M. K. McIntosh—Ministry of Defence

  W. P. McLennan—Central Statistical Office

  Mrs. B. J. L. Mills—Director of Public Prosecutions

  Their careers and experience vary widely and are described in "Who's Who!" Before appointment inquiries are made to ensure that there are no obstacles to the recruitment of candidates to a non-political civil service. After appointment, they are expected to comply with the restrictions on political activities set out in the civil service management code and departmental staff handbooks.

  Efficiency Unit Scrutiny
  Mr. Brazier
  To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what topics have been covered in the Efficiency Unit's central scrutiny programme in the last financial year; and which scrutiny reports can be made available to the general public.

  Mr. Robert G. Hughes
  Fifteen efficiency scrutinies or similar reviews have been undertaken by Departments in 1993–94 in association with the Prime Minister's adviser on efficiency and the efficiency unit. The programme, including those which are not yet completed, is as follows:

  Department/Title of scrutiny

  Report: publicly available

  Completed

  Central Statistical Office

  Structure and conduct of statistical inquiries to business

  Yes

  508

  Department/Title of scrutiny

  Report: publicly available

  Department of Employment

  Management and administration of employment services adjudication

  No

  Foreign and Commonwealth Office

  Research and analysis department and library and records department

  No

  Security of information

  No

  Home Office

  Inter-agency co-operation on illegal immigration

  No

  Inland revenue

  Managing contracts

  Yes

  Department of Naational Savings

  Scope for expanding facilities for investments in national savings

  No

  (Executive summary and summary of recommendations available on request)

  Northern Ireland Office

  Management and disposal of Government-owned land

  Under consideration

  Scottish Office

  Management and control of non-departmental public bodies

  Under consideration

  Welsh Office

  The sponsorship of non-departmental public bodies (action plan recommendations available on request)

  No

  Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food

  Internal charging

  Yes

  Not completed

  Department of the Environment

  Liason officer functions

  Multi-departmental Scrutinies

  Management of the Government's civil estate

  Yes

  Public sector research establishments

  Yes

  The Government's use of external consultants

  To be published shortly

  Decisions on the publication of scrutiny reports are taken by the Ministers responsible for the scrutinies concerned. In a number of cases, where a scrutiny has been recently completed or is not yet complete, no decision on publication has been made.

  Sexual Harassment
  Mr. Meacher
  To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what is his Department's policy on sexual harassment.

  Mr. David Hunt
  It is civil service-wide policy that Departments and agencies should provide, for all their staff, a working environment which is free from harassment and unfair discrimination. Departments and agencies should have in place procedures for handling complaints of harassment and unfair discrimination and make them known to all staff.

  Advice to Departments and agencies has recently been reviewed and published by my Department. I have arranged for the hon. Member to receive a copy of "Good Practice for Equal Opportunities Staff Complaints Procedures: Advice for Departments and Agencies", copies of which are also being placed in the Libraries of the House.

  Ministerial Conduct (Complaints)
  Mr. Meacher
  To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster how many complaints have been received from First Division Association civil servants since 1 January regarding the conduct of any Minister.
  509
  Mr. David Hunt
  Contrary to the report in The Independent on Sunday of 17 July, no formal complaints have been made by the First Division Association about the conduct of a Minister.
  510

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS

  Rwanda
  Mr. Worthington
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs which foreign troops are now operating, or are promised for deployment in Rwanda.

  Mr. Baldry
  As of 30 June the following countries had troops operating in Rwanda: Bangladesh, Canada, Ghana, France and Senegal. The following countries had military observers in place: Austria, Bangladesh, Canada, Congo, Egypt, Fiji, Ghana, Malawi, Mali, Nigeria, Poland, Russian Federation, Senegal, Togo, Uruguay and Zimbabwe. Mali and Togo also had civilian police in Rwanda. We understand that Ethiopia, Nigeria, Zimbabwe, Malawi and Zambia have all offered additional troops.

  Mr. Worthington
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what is known about the whereabouts of Rwanda's former Government ministers; and what action is to be taken by the United Nations to locate them.

  Mr. Baldry
  We are not aware of the exact whereabouts of Rwanda's former Government Ministers. UNAMIR's mandate is to assist the humanitarian effort in Rwanda and help promote a political settlement.

  Angola
  Mr. Worthington
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations have been made by the United Nations, European Union and the United Kingdom to the Government of Zaire about the support it gives to UNITA in Angola; and what has been the response of the Government of Zaire.

  Mr. Baldry
  The chairman of the United Nations Angola sanctions committee has written to the Government of Zaire asking for a response to allegations that Zaire has breached United Nations sanctions against UNITA. The Government have not replied. We have therefore supported a proposal that the President of the Security Council call in the permanent representative of Zaire to explain his Government's lack of co-operation and to urge an immediate response to the allegations.

  Nigeria
  Mr. Parry
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what is Her Majesty's Government's policy on Nigeria; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Baldry
  I refer the hon. Member to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale (Mr. Lennox-Boyd) to my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset (Mr. Bruce) on 13 July at column 977.

  Burundi
  Mr. Burden
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has made of the conduct of the Parti Pour la Liberation du Peuple Hutu in Burundi in the run-up to the presidential elections on 12 July; what representations he has received on the matter; and if he will make a statement.
  512
  Mr. Baldry
  We have received no representations on the conduct of the Parti pour la Libération du Peuple Hutu in Burundi. The United Nations Secretary-General's special representative is in Burundi to assist the Government and the Organisation of African Unity in their efforts to restore democratic institutions, rebuild confidence and stabilise the situation. With the consent of all concerned, the presidential election has been postponed and is now to take place before 12 October.

  Giles Chichester and Michael Rogers
  Mr. Meacher
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, pursuant to his answer of 17 June,Official Report, column 674, what contact Mr. Giles Chichester and Mr. Michael Rogers had with the United Nations mission in Geneva on 24 July 1993; and what information the United Kingdom mission had of their activities regarding SASEA and the issue of bonds by Warburgs.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  Since the answer of my right hon. Friend the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs to an earlier question on 17 June at columnn 674, the consulate-general in Geneva has confirmed that Mr. Michael Rogers telephoned the vice-consul on 26 July 1993 seeking advice on how he might arrange a private visit for Mr. Giles Chichester to the United Nations in Geneva.

  As is usual, the consulate-general was happy to assist. An exchange of faxes with the United Nations visits section set up the visit for 31 July 1993. Apart from a faxed message of thanks from Mr. Rogers after the visit had taken place, there has been no further contact with the consulate-general or any other United Kingdom office in Geneva on this matter.

  Because of its private nature, we have no record of the substance of the visit by Mr. Chichester to the United Nations offices in Geneva in July 1993.

  Furthermore, we have no knowledge of the activities of Messrs. Chichester and Rogers regarding SASEA and the issue of bonds by Warburgs.

  United Nations Operations
  Mr. George
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will list those United Nations operations to which British forces have been committed since 1964.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  United Kingdom forces have been committed to the following United Nations operations since 1964:

  UN advance mission in Cambodia, 1991–92;

  UN transitional authority in Cambodia, 1992–93;

  UN transitional assistance group, Namibia, 1989–90;

  UN mission for the referendum in western Sahara, 1991–93;

  UN Iraq/Kuwait Observer Mission, 1991 to date;

  UN force in Cyprus, 1964 to date;

  UN protection force, former Yugoslavia, 1992 to date.

  Figures refer to the years when United Kingdom forces were involved in the operations listed.

  Hong Kong (Detention Centres)
  Mr. Cox
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he had with the Governor of Hong Kong prior to the raid by police and security forces on the Whitehead Vietnamese detention centre in Hong Kong; and if he will make a statement.
  513
  Mr. Baldry
  The transfer of Vietnamese migrants between detention centres is a matter for the Hong Kong Government. We had no discussions with the Governor of Hong Kong prior to the operation in the Whitehead detention centre on 7 April.

  Mr. Cox
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recommendations are to be introduced by the Governor of Hong Kong in consultation with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, London as to the procedures that would be followed in any future disturbance at detention centres housing Vietnamese boat people in Hong Kong.

  Mr. Baldry
  The Hong Kong Government accept the recommendations contained in the report of the honourable Andrew Li, CBE, QC, JP and Professor Todd, CBE, JP and intend to implement them fully.

  Mr. Cox
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions have taken place(a) in London or (b) in Hong Kong as to the role played by Mr. Alistair Asprey, following the report on the handling of the incidents that took place at the Whitehead detention centre for Vietnamese people in Hong Kong; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Baldry
  The role played by Mr. Alistair Asprey in the operation which took place in the Whitehead detention centre in Hong Kong on 7 April is set out in the report of the independent inquiry into that operation. The part that he played has not been discussed by the British or Hong Kong Government following publication of the report.

  East Timor
  Dr. Lynne Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent reports he has received of disturbances and possible abuses of human rights in East Timor; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Baldry
  I refer the hon. Lady to the reply given by my hon. Friend the Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale (Mr. Lennox-Boyd) to the hon. Member for Liverpool, Mossley Hill (Mr. Alton) on 19 July at col.133.

  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has had with the Government of Indonesia concerning the police attack on the university of East Timor on 28 June and later incidents; and if he will make a statement on Her Majesty's Government's policy towards human rights in East Timor.

  Mr. Baldry
  The facts surrounding the recent events at the University of East Timor remain unclear. We have asked Her Majesty's embassy in Jakarta for a detailed report.

  The Indonesian Government are well aware of the importance we attach to respect for human rights. With European Union partners, we expressed concern about reports of renewed clashes between the security forces and civilian demonstrators in a statement on 18 July.

  Cyprus
  Mr. Worthington
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the decision by the European Court on exports from the Turkish-occupied sector of Cyprus to the European Union; how this is to be implemented; and what will be the main goods affected.
  514
  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  In its judgment on 5 July, the European Court held that, under the Plant Health Directive and the EC/Cyprus association agreement, member states were precluded from accepting phytosanitary and origin certificates other than those issued by the Republic of Cyprus authorities. The United Kingdom has amended its practice to give effect to the ruling.

  Most agricultural goods will be affected because they require phytosanitary certificates, and all goods will lose preferential access under the EC/Cyprus association agreement. The principal non-agricultural products affected are textiles.

  Korean Peninsula
  Mr. Parry
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the current situation of the Korean peninsula.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  We hope that, following the death of Kim Il-sung, North Korea will soon be ready to resume the contacts which had been planned with South Korea and the United States. These offer an important chance to resolve the North Korean nuclear problem and reduce tension in the peninsula.

  Rhino Horn
  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has held with the Governor of Hong Kong on rhino horn stock piles and ivory sales.

  Mr. Baldry
  We keep in close touch with the Hong Kong Government on the international trade in endangered species. Controls over the trade are rigorously enforced in Hong Kong. The possession and sale of rhino horn is banned in Hong Kong. The domestic sale of ivory in Hong Kong does not infringe controls over trade in endangered species.

  Governors' Residences (Staff)
  Mr. Byers
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many(a) butlers, (b) cooks and (c) domestic servants are employed at the Governors' residences in (i) Bermuda and (ii) Hong Kong; and what is the annual cost of running each residence.

  Mr. Baldry
  The running costs of the Governors' residences in Bermuda and Hong Kong, and the employment of domestic servants, are the responsibility of the respective Governments. The FCO has no record of either.

  Qazi Nawazish Khan
  Mr. Madden
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if the United Kingdom post in Islamabad has received an application for an appeal to be heard in the United Kingdom against the refusal to grant entry clearance to Qazi Nawazish Khan, Ref. IMM C 1490; when the post expects to despatch an explanatory statement to Mr. Khan's representative in the United Kingdom; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Baldry
  In the absence of any information in London about an application for Qazi Nawazish Khan, I have asked the high commission in Islamabad to let me
  515
  have a report. I shall arrange for the hon. Member to receive a substantive reply from the migration and visa correspondence unit of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office as soon as possible.

  Embassies (Running Costs)
  Mr. Byers
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what is the total annual budget for running the British embassy in(a) Washington, (b) Paris, (c) Brussels, (d) Rome, (e) Tokyo, (f) Montreal, (g) New Dehli and (h) Moscow; if he will give for each embassy the annual amount spent on entertaining and hospitality; and how many (i) butlers and (ii) cooks and (iii) other domestic servants are employed at each embassy.

  Mr. Baldry
  The total cost of running these posts, and the cost of entertainment, in 1992–3, the latest year for which final expenditure figures are available, was as follows:

  Post

  Total running cost £million

  Entertainment£thousands

  Washington

  13·8

  242

  Paris

  16·7

  359

  Brussels

  3·6

  50

  Rome

  7·1

  89

  Tokyo

  14·5

  293

  Montreal

  0·6

  21

  New Delhi

  6·3

  55

  Moscow

  5·1

  102

  The numbers of domesti staft employed are:

  Post

  Butlers

  Cook/cook help

  Other

  Washington

  1

  3

  16·0

  Paris

  1

  1

  15·0

  Brussels

  1

  1

  3·5

  Rome

  1

  2

  6·5

  Tokyo

  1

  3

  10·5

  Montreal

  —

  —

  1·5

  New Delhi

  —

  3

  20·5

  Moscow

  —

  3

  7·0

  Colombia

  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what contacts and representations he has made to the Government of Colombia concerning the view of Amnesty International on human rights abuses; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  We are in regular touch with the Colombian Government on human rights. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs raised the concern felt in this country when President-elect Samper called him on 19 July.

  Turkey
  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he has made to the Government of Turkey concerning the arrest and trial of parliamentary members of the Democratic party; and if he will make a statement.
  516
  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs discussed the need for democratization and constitutional change with Prime Minister Ciller in Istanbul on 10 June. Her Majesty's ambassador in Ankara has made clear to the Turkish Government our strong concern about the action against Democratic party members of parliament.

  Belize-Guatemala Road Link
  Mr. Mans
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on developments with regard to the United Kingdom's 1991 aid pledge for a joint Belize —Guatemala road link.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  We have decided to authorise the Belize element of Her Majesty's Government's pledge. Subject to satisfactory appraisal, the £7·5 million Belizean share of the pledge will be used to contribute to the financing of the southern highway project, which is the Belize Government's next infrastructure priority.

  As relations between Belize and Guatemala develop, we hope to be able to proceed with the Guatermala element of the aid commitment.

  European Union (Subsidiarity)
  Mr. Bates
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the application of the principle of subsidiarity in the European Union.

  Mr. Hurd
  The number of new Commission proposals for principal legislation fell to 25 in the first five months of 1994. This confirms the continuing downward trend which resulted in a fall from 185 new proposals in 1990, to 75 in 1993.

  The Commission has withdrawn 12 new proposals in line with their undertakings at the Edinburgh and Brussels European Councils. These include a number of proposals which threatened to be particularly difficult for the United Kingdom, such as the draft Directive on Liability of Service Supplies.

  Twelve more proposals are to be amended on subsidiarity grounds. The Commission is also making greater use of white and green consultative papers, in order to take proper account of the effect of proposed legislation on those who would be affected by it.

  The Commission's work programme includes subsidiarity reviews of environmental, rights of residence, and pharmaceuticals legislation. In the customs area, a review has led to the replacement of 75 instruments with just two regulations.

  We look forward to further evidence of progress in the Commission's detailed report to the Essen Council in December, and we are continuing our regular discussions of subsidiarity with our partners and with the Commission.

  Westminster Foundation for Democracy
  Mr. Bates
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when the annual report of the Westminster Foundation for Democracy will be placed in the Library.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  Copies of the foundation's annual report for 1993–94 were placed in the Libraries of the House today.
  517
  In its second year, with funding of £2 million, the foundation supported 236 projects, compared with 140 last year. They ranged from the provision of transistors to Belgrade's independent TV station, Studio B, to funding a field worker to provide voter education in Soweto prior to the South African elections. The cost of individual projects ranged from £300 to £60,000 but most were in the range of £5,000 to £15,000.

  We welcome the diversity of the foundation's projects and its commitment to continuous improvement in the already high degree of its cost-effectiveness.

  Foreign Affairs Council
  Mr. Bates
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the outcome of the Foreign Affairs Council in Brussels on 18 and 19 July.

  Mr. Hurd
  I attended the Council.

  There was an open debate on the German presidency's programme. My intervention centred on the EU's relations with central and eastern Europe and making common foreign and security policy more effective.

  The presidency and Commission briefed member states on follow-up to the White Paper.

  The Council discussed the establishment of the Consultative Commission on racism and xenophobia, as agreed at the Corfu European Council. The United Kingdom will nominate its representatives by the end of July. The chairman of the consultative commission will be decided when all United Kingdom members have been appointed.

  The Council discussed a Commission paper on relations between the European Union and the countries of central and eastern Europe.

  Ministers approved a declaration urging the parties to accept the contact group plan for a negotiated settlement in Bosnia. The presidency reported on plans to inaugurate the EU administration of Mostar on 25 July. Ministers also discussed the situation in the Croatian Krajina and the former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia.

  The Council had a general discussion on a number of issues likely to be discussed with the European Parliament in the autumn.

  The President of the Commission reported to the Council on the EU-Canada summit in Bonn on 6 July, and the EU-US summit in Berlin on 12 July.

  The Council also discussed the outcome of the G7 summit in Naples.

  On the Mediterranean, the Commission briefed Ministers on the state of negotiations with Morocco, Tunisia and Israel on new partnership agreements. While those with Tunisia and Israel were making good progress, important differences with Morocco remained to be resolved. The Council agreed conclusions reaffirming the need to deepen EU-Mediterranean relations.

  The Council approved negotiating mandates for interim agreements with Russia, Moldova, Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan and agreed certain changes to the negotiating mandate for a partnership and co-operation agreement with Moldova.

  The Council agreed that South Africa should become a beneficiary under its generalised system of preferences, for a list of products to be determined by the end of this month. The Commission reported on its recent meetings with the
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  South African Government, with whom it hopes to negotiate an interim bilateral agreement in the next few weeks, based on the conclusions of the April FAC.

  The Council discussed a Dutch-Danish proposal on revised procedures for the handling of requests for documents. The United Kingdom supported attempts to meet Dutch and Danish concerns and voted in favour, but the proposal was voted down.

  The Commission presented a strategy paper on strengthening EU-Asia relations. The presidency asked COREPER and the Political Committee to examine ways of enhancing the relationship, and to report back to the Council.

  The Council reached agreement on the legal base for the conclusion of the EC-India and EC-Sri Lanka co-operation agreements by qualified majority vote. Portugal and Greece opposed.

  The Council agreed by qualified majority vote —with Spain, Portugal and Greece voting against —to an increase of just under 30 per cent in the quota for imports from China of stuffed toys, customs classification 9503 41, for the period March to December 1994. Proposals for similar increases in the quotas for non-stuffed toys representing animals or non-human creatures, 9503 49, and certain miscellaneous toys, 9503 90, were not agreed —Spain, Portugal, Greece and France voting against. The latter two proposals are to be considered further by COREPER.

  The Commission reported on the progress of work on proposals to establish a common regime for the use of OPT —outward processing in the textile sector. It was agreed that, due to delays in agreeing the overall regime, the Commission would prepare a separate proposal to establish duty exemption for OPT conducted with the countries of central and eastern Europe.

  The Council took note of a number of measures which will be introduced with the aim of improving the effectiveness of procedures in the common foreign and security policy intergovernmental pillar.

  Free trade agreements were signed with Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.

  The Council agreed the conditions for the release of a 35 mecu balance of payments grant for Albania.

  The Council agreed in principle to provide food aid to Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan.

  The Commission reported to the Council on the outcome of the OECD negotiations for an international shipbuilding agreement, which ended on 17 July. France indicated its opposition to the conclusion of the agreement in its present form and requested the Commission to continue negotiations. The Council will return to this issue at its meeting on 4 October.

  Export Licences
  Mr. Bates
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what guidance is available to officials of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to assist them in considering export licence applications; and whether this guidance is available to the public.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  Departments in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office involved in considering export licence applications are given a guide on relevant procedures and criteria, which is regularly updated.

  A copy of the latest issue will be placed in the Library in due course. Copies will also be available from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

TRADE AND INDUSTRY

  Dell Invoice
  Mr. Meacher
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what action he proposes to take regarding the Dell invoice, a copy of which his Department has recently received; and if he will make a statement on the implications in the document for United Kingdom sovereignty.

  Mr. Needham
  We do not have sufficient information about the specific case raised to answer the question in full; however, Her Majesty's Government reject claims by foreign Governments to exorbitant extraterritorial control over the re-export of foreign-origin goods and technology. We recognise, however, that we cannot prevent foreign Governments from making such claims or seeking to enforce them in their own territories.

  Her Majesty's Government's judgment has therefore been that United Kingdom companies and individuals should generally be allowed to make a commercial decision on whether or not to comply with such requirements.

  Any goods or technology exported from the United Kingdom which are controlled under the Export of Goods (Control) Order, as amended, must comply with the licensing requirements set out in that order. This requirement is not altered by the fact that the exporter of the goods has also elected to comply with a foreign nation's export regulations.

  Small Businesses
  Mr. David Shaw
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a statement on the achievements of(a) his policies and (b) his Department in helping small businesses over the last 12 months as against the previous 12 months; if he will publish the performance indicators by which his Department monitors those achievements and the statistical results of such monitoring; and if he will set out his targets to help small businesses in the next year.

  Mr. Heseltine
  The Government recognise the crucial role played by small firms in the United Kingdom economy. Government help small firms by keeping inflation and interest rates low and by reducing legislation and adminstrative burdens. They also provide direct assistance where appropriate and are currently establishing a network of business links to provide high-quality, business support across the country. The Department regularly reviews and monitors its policies in relation to small firms. Ministers and officials are in constant contact with small firms' representative organisations, professional bodies and other Government Departments, to ensure that policies reflect the need of the small business sector.

  The report "Small Firms in Britain 1994" was published by this Department on 7 July. This report surveys developments in the sector, including key statistical indicators and sets out details of Government policy in relation to small firms. Although aimed at all sectors, the measures announced in the recently published White Paper on competitiveness have clear implications for small firms. The initiatives announced will encourage the growth of the small firms sector through well targeted tax relief, further deregulation, help with finance, help with
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  information and advice, help with consultancy and management best practice, and help with business and skills training.

  Specific measures operated by my Department to assist small businesses include:
  Business Link. The development of a network of Business Link outlets is a key element in the strategy to assist small firms. Each Business Link will provide advice, counselling, diagnostic work and information through Personal Business Advisers. They will provide a single point of access to a wide range of high quality business services. There are 34 Business Link outlets open and a total of 110 Business Link proposals have been approved through the quarterly Assessment Panel. By the end of 1994, there will be at least 50 Business Links operating. By the end of 1995 it is envisaged that every company within England will have access to a Business Link outlet.
  Local Business Support Services. DTI funds Training and Enterprise Councils (TECs) to encourage the growth and competitiveness of local businesses through high quality, accessible and coherent services.
  TECs contracts with local partners, especially Chambers of Commerce, Local Enterprise Agencies and Local Authorities, to meet local needs by delivering information and advice services; business counselling for new and existing businesses, business diagnostic services and business skills training—including skills seminars, masterclass, action learning groups and open learning programmes, particularly for managers and owner managers of small firms.
  Late Payment. The Consultation Paper, "Late Payment of Commercial Debt", was issued on 1 November 1993 to seek the views of the business community on possible options to address late payment.
  The outcome of the consultation was announced in the White Paper on Competitiveness. A range of practical measures is to be introduced to improve court procedures, ensure government departments and their agencies pay promptly, improve the visibility of the payment policies of public companies, improve credit management and debt collection skills and develop proposals for a British Standard for prompt payment.
  There are continuing indications that payment times in the United Kingdom are reducing and are below the European average. The new measures will build upon this improvement.
  Loan Guarantee Scheme. The Loan Guarantee Scheme facilitates access to finance for small firms.
  The enhancements announced in the Chancellor of the Exchequer's Spring Budget Statement were implemented on 1 July 1993. These changes have led to a sharp increase in Scheme usage and the highest levels of lending since 1984. In the 12 months to June 1993, 4,752 loans were guaranteed to a value of £200·613 million.
  We are introducing a pilot scheme in September to offer support and counselling to small firms using the Loan Guarantee Scheme. This will help small firms identify their strengths and weaknesses, and offer advice. The service will be delivered through Training and Enterprise Councils, Business Links and Enterprise Agencies and will cover approximately 10–5 per cent. of Scheme applications. The pilot will run for three years.
  Innovation. This Department continues to be active in assisting small firms to improve their access to technology and to exploit new ideas. Initiatives include:
  Small Firms Merit Award for Research and Technology (SMART). Last year 180 new projects were supported with grants and I expect the same number to be successful in this year's competition.
  Support for Products Under Research (SPUR). In the 12 months to March 1994 grants totalling almost £12 million were awarded to 139 projects. There will be a similar level of support this year.
  EUREKA. Last year the United Kingdom participated in 49 announced EUREKA projects, involving 76 organisations, including 28 small to medium sized enterprises. This year the United Kingdom participated in 36 announced projects, involving 62 organisations, 23 of which were smaller companies.
  Teaching Company Scheme (TCS). This facilitates techno-logy transfer and provides industry-based training for high quality graduates through partnerships between academia and business. A target of TCS programmes supported by DTI is that 80 per cent. should involve small and medium-sized enterprises.

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  Senior Academics in Industry Scheme (SAIS) enables senior and experienced academic staff to work in companies for up to six months on strategic transfer projects. Preference is given to smaller firms and costs are shared by the companies and DTI.
  Shell Technology Enterprise Programme (STEP). This is a national placement scheme for undergraduates. STEP aims to encourage small and medium-sized enterprises to consider employing graduates and to provide undergraduates with experience in industry. DTI support of STEP since 1992 has enabled expansion of the scheme so that there is now a target of 1,000 placements in the summer of 1994.
  Export Promotion. This Department together with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office provide, through the Overseas Trade Services, advice, information, and financial support to help UK exporters win overseas business. This work is particularly aimed at smaller and less experienced exporters. An independent monthly survey of the delivery of the services shows a consistently high level of customer satisfaction and some 90 per cent. of respondents regularly say that they will use the services again. Details of the services and their take up are set out in the "British Overseas Trade Board's Annual Report 1993–4 and Forward Plan", as are details of the Overseas Trade Services priorities and main activities for the year to come. A copy is in the Library of the House.
  Enterprise Initiative Consultancy Scheme. In the year ending March 1994, 17,995 applications for the Scheme were received and 10,423 were completed. This brought the total number of applications to 135,700 with 65,300 completions.
  The Consultancy Scheme did not end as scheduled in March 1994; the President of the Board of Trade announced on 9 December 1993 that the scheme will stay open until a further 10,000 applications have been received. Beyond that, a new package of support will be introduced, including a Diagnostic and Consultancy Service which will be available exclusively through Business Links from the summer; a new Consultancy Brokerage Service which is currently undergoing trials with Business Links and TECs will be launched nationally by the end of the year, and technology-related advice in a number of forms, including innovation and technology counsellors who are being funded on a pilot basis in the first Business Links.
  Deregulation. Under the Deregulation Initiative over 870 regulations have now been identified for repeal or amendment. Many of these reforms will be of particular benefit to small firms.
  Following the recommendation of the original business task forces that, when formulating new regulations the interests of small firms should be the first consideration, a small firms litmus test was introduced on 19 January 1994, as part of the compliance cost assessment for the new regulatory proposals.
  The new Deregulation Task force, chaired by Francis Maude, which was announced on 6 July will be looking particularly at the burden of regulation on small firms.

  Iraq (Exports)
  Mr. Cousins
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what is the present remaining exposure on Export Credits Guarantee Department cover on exports to Iraq prior to August 1990.

  Mr. Needham
  ECGD's exposure on Iraq as at the end of June 1994 is £652 million.

  Mr. Cousins
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what was the outstanding exposure of Export Credits Guarantee Department cover on exports to Iraq in August 1990; and what claims were paid or offsetting revenue achieved, by the end of March in 1991 and by the same date in each succeeding year.

  Mr. Needham
  ECGD's estimate of its exposure on Iraq as at the end of each of the last four financial year ends is as follows:522

  Year

  Unrecovered claims £ million

  Estimate of claims to be £ million

  Total exposure £ million

  March 1991

  205

  543

  748

  March 1992

  392

  296

  688

  March 1993

  492

  160

  652

  March 1994

  555

  97

  652

  The figures as at March 1994 remain provisional pending publication of ECGD's trading accounts for the 1993–4 financial year.

  Comparative data are not available for the position at August 1990 but exposure then was estimated at f1·1 billion, including £103 million of unrecovered claims.

  Nitric Acid
  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what information has been received by his Department from British Nuclear Fuels plc in regard to its plans to import radioactively contaminated nitric acid from the United States Department of Energy nuclear complex at Hanford, Washington state; and what licensing arrangements cover the import of contaminated acids for recycling at Sellafield.

  Mr. Eggar
  This is a matter for the company, subject to meeting appropriate regulatory requirements. Specific import licences are required for acids containing certain nuclear materials.

  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what capacity exists in United Kingdom industry to manufacture nitric acid; and whether the Control of Major Accident Hazards Regulations apply to all nitric acid manufacturing plant.

  Mr. Heseltine
  A figure for production capacity for nitric acid is not available but the chemical is made by a number of companies in the United Kingdom. Responsibility for administering the Control of Industrial Major Accident Hazards Regulations 1984 rests with the Health and Safety Executive. I understand that some, but no all, sites manufacturing nitric acid are subject to the requirements of CIMAH.

  Coal Industry
  Ms Walley
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade which companies are advising him in respect of coal privatisation; and what payments have been made in each case.

  Mr. Eggar
  The companies advising the Department on coal privatisation are as follows:

  N. M. Rothschild

  Clifford Chance

  John T. Boyd

  Touche Ross

  R. P. S. Consultants

  Dewe Rogerson

  Wardell Armstrong

  Peter Williams

  Brodies W. S

  Mason Land Survey Ltd.

  Drivers Jonas

  The total expenditure on coal privatisation consultants in 1993–4 was approximately £10·2 million, including VAT. Payments to individual consultants are commercial, in confidence.
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  Ms Walley
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what discussions he has had with the Department of the Environment in respect of planning and environmental considerations relating to opencast coal mining sites to be offered for sale.

  Mr. Eggar
  My Department has had regular discussions with the Department of the Environment about planning and opencast issues relating to opencast mining. The preliminary memorandum issued in April by N. M. Rothschild and Sons Ltd. made it clear that the grant of planning consents necessary for the extraction of coal would remain a matter for the planning authorities.

  Mr. Tipping
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what discussions he has had with British Coal to ensure that potential purchasers of Coal Products also have the opportunity of acquiring its Hyload joint venture.

  Mr Eggar
  The sale of Coal Products Ltd. and of Hyload are matters for British Coal. I understand that the corporation is carefully considering all the relevant factors in reaching decisions on the future of Hyload.

  Mr. Tipping
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what recent discussions he has had about the future of British. Coal Enterprise; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Eggar
  My Department is in continuing contact with British Coal and British Coal Enterprise about the future of BCE.

  Mr. Tipping
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will set out the timetable by which the coal authority will become operational; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Eggar
  It is my aim to set up the coal authority as soon as practicable. I have already announced the initial accommodation arrangements for the authority and its chairman and chief executive designates. The process of recruiting staff is under way.

  Mr Alison
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what diversion of coal movements by rail to road from Gascoigne Wood drift mine near Selby have been occasioned by the current series of one-day rail strikes; what planning conditions are breached by these road movements; and what planning authorisation has been sought to give effect to these road movements.

  Mr. Eggar
  This is a matter for British Coal.

  Mr. Tipping
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what progress has been made over the disposal of British Coal's non-operational land and property interest; by what mechanisms such ownerships will be disposed of; over what time scale; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Eggar
  The Government are currently considering the options with British Coal. No decisions have yet been taken.

  Mr. Tipping
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what discussions he has had with British Coal to ensure that the management and employees of Coal Products Ltd. have an opportunity of securing that company.

  Mr. Eggar
  The sale of Coal Products Ltd. is a matter for British Coal. I understand that there is interest in a524
  management employee buy-out and that British Coal has made financial support available to assist with the preparation of a MEBO bid.

  Ms Walley
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will place in the Library a copy of the advice he has received from N. M. Rothschild in respect of opencast coal mining sites to be offered for sale to private mining companies.

  Mr. Eggar
  N. M. Rothschild continues to provide advice on a range of matters on a day-to-day basis. Operating opencast sites included in the regional coal companies are listed in the preliminary memorandum issued by N. M. Rothschild on 13 April. Copies have been placed in the Library of the House. The preliminary memorandum also explains that the regional coal companies will include portfolios of prospective opencast sites where potentially recoverable reserves have been identified by British Coal.

  Ms Walley
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will give details of opencast sites in Staffordshire which he proposes to offer for sale under the Coal Industry Act 1992.

  Mr. Eggar
  British Coal operates one opencast site in Staffordshire, Bleak House near Cannock. The preliminary memorandum issued by N. M. Rothschild and Sons Ltd. in April explains that it is proposed to offer the site as part of the central south regional coal company.

  Imports and Exports
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade, pursuant to his answer of 15 June,Official Report, column 603, what was the average annual increase in output per head in manufacturing in the United Kingdom, the USA, Germany and Japan from 1990 to the latest available date; and what effect the relative changes have had on competitiveness.

  Mr. Heseltine
  Between 1990 and 1993 the estimated annual growth in manufacturing output per head was 3·2 per cent. in the United Kingdom, 3·7 per cent. in the United States of America, -2·6 per cent. in Germany and -3·8 per cent. in Japan. Improvements in productivity are key to increased competitiveness.

  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade, pursuant to his answer of 15 June,Official Report, column 603, if he will publish the average annual increase in output per person in 1980–89 and 1964–73 for the United Kingdom and the United States of America, Germany and Japan together with the percentage change in each country's share and the value of volume of exports of manufactures by the main manufacturing countries, the percentage change between 1980 and 1989 in each country's share of the import market for manufactures in the national markets for which he has held or holds such records.

  Mr. Heseltine
  The information on output per person and shares of import markets for manufactures is given in the tables.

  Information on percentage changes in the United Kingdom, the United States, Germany, and Japan's shares by value of exports of manufactures by the main manufacturing countries can be readily derived from

  525
  information available on the Central Statistical Office database, which can be accessed via the Library of the House. Corresponding information for the shares by volume is not readily available and could be produced only at disproportionate cost.

  Percentage changes in United Kingdom, USA, German, Japanese shares by value of import markets of manufactures1

  Percentage change in share 1980–89

  United Kingdom

  USA

  Germany

  Japan

  Import market

  Belgium-Luxembourg

  -6·4

  -35·6

  -10·5

  1·0

  Canada

  -28·3

  -12·4

  17·7

  53·1

  France

  12·1

  -14·9

  -5·5

  50·4

  Germany (Fed. Rep.)

  7·2

  -2·0

  —

  58·3

  Italy

  -11·6

  -28·2

  1·8

  34·9

  Japan

  -27·1

  -20·3

  9·8

  —

  Netherlands

  -10·6

  -5·4

  -9·6

  24·0

  Sweden

  -24·2

  -1·0

  -4·1

  69·0

  Switzerland

  -42·6

  -10·2

  10·1

  25·4

  United Kingdom

  —

  -12·0

  26·6

  44·2

  United States

  -22·7

  —

  -27·8

  3·3

  1 Manufactures are defined as Standard International Trade Classification Sections 5 to 8.

  Source: OECD Series C.

  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will publish a table showing(a) the change in import penetration by manufacturing industry between 1980 and the year ending June 1989 together with the corresponding change in United Kingdom output per person, (b) the percentage change between 1980 and 1989 in the United Kingdom share of the value and volume of exports of manufactures by the main manufacturing countries, (c) the percentage change between 1980 and 1989 in the United Kingdom share of the import market for manufactures in the EEC and in the national markets for which he holds records and (d) the relative volume of exports to imports of manufactures in 1980 and 1989 and the corresponding surplus or deficit on trade in manufactures.

  Mr. Needham
  The information on changes in import penetration can be readily derived from information regularly published in table 12.2 of the Central Statistical Office's "Annual Abstract of Statistics", a copy of which is available in the Library of the House. The corresponding information on United Kingdom output per person, the changes in United Kingdom shares by value and volume of exports of manufactures by the main manufacturing countries, and the changes in the surplus/deficit in trade in manufactures in 1980 and 1989, can be readily derived from information available on the Central Statistical Office database, which can be accessed via the Library of the House.

  The changes 1980–1989 in the United Kingdom's share of the import market for manufactures in the EC, and the United Kingdom's relative volume of exports to imports of manufactures for 1980 and 1989 are given in the table.

  Percentage change 1980–1989 in United Kingdom share by value of EC countries imports of manufactures1

  Import market

  Percentage change

  EC12

  -6·6

  Belgium-Luxembourg

  -6·4

  Denmark

  -17·9

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  Growth in manufacturing output per head

  Percentage pa

  United Kingdom

  USA

  Germany

  Japan

  1964–73

  3·9

  3·4

  3·9

  9·8

  1980–89

  4·9

  3·9

  2·3

  3·4

  Source: OECD, CSO

  Import market

  Percentage change

  France

  12·1

  Germany (Fed. Rep.)

  7·2

  Greece

  -3·9

  Ireland

  -26·8

  Italy

  -11·6

  Netherlands

  -10·6

  Portugal

  -37·5

  Spain

  0·6

  Source: OECD Series C

  United Kingdom relative volume2 of manufactures1

  1980

  127·2

  1989

  86·4

  Source: CSO Monthly Review of External Trade Statistics Annual Supplement 1992 Tables A10 and All.

  1 Manufactures are defined as Standard International Trade Classification Section 5 to 8.

  2 Export volume of manufactures index as a percentage of the import volume of manufactures index.

  System X Telecommunications System
  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a statement on whether the System X telecommunications system exported since 1989 to the United States of America, Russia, China, Colombia, Gibraltar, Kenya, India, Kuwait, the Falklands and the Philippines have fully conformed to the ISDN protocol as defined by the CC1IITT 7 committee.

  Mr. Heseltine
  The supplier has informed me that the equipment concerned met the customers' requirements at the time of export. More detailed information is a matter for the company concerned.

  Statistics
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will publish a table showing information available to him in index form of the latest figures for(a)

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  output, (b) output per hour and (c) unit labour costs in Japan, the United States of America, the United Kingdom and the European Community as a whole.

  Mr. Heseltine
  Information on the latest figures, in index form, for output of the United States, United Kingdom and EC is regularly published in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development's "Main Economic Indicators", a copy of which is available in the Library of the House.

  Corresponding information for the whole economy on output per hour and unit labour costs is not readily available and could be produced only at disproportionate cost.

  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade, pursuant to his answer of 15 June,Official Report, column 603, what was the average increase in output per head in manufacturing in the United Kingdom, the United States of America, Germany and Japan from 1979 to 1989 and from 1989 to the latest available date; by how much United Kingdom unit labour costs in manufacturing fell relative to those of the other three countries in each period as a result of the increase in output per head; by how much the exchange rate would have to change to offset the differences in the rate of change in the unit labour costs in United Kingdom manufacturing in each period as a result of the change in productivity; and what equivalent information he holds on (a) France, (b) Italy and (c) other EC countries on average.

  Mr. Heseltine
  Information on changes in output per head in manufacturing is given in the table. Figures for the EC as a whole are not available on a comparable basis.

  Information on the United Kingdom's relative unit labour costs in manufacturing is published regularly in Central Statistical Office's "Economic Trends", a copy of which is available in the Library of the House.

  Percentage/per annum

  1979–89

  1989–93

  United Kingdom

  4·0

  2·9

  USA

  3·6

  3·2

  Germany

  2·0

  -1·4

  France

  2·5

  0·3

  Italy

  3·4

  -1·3

  Japan

  3·4

  -2·5

  Sources: OECD, CSO.

  Parliamentary Questions
  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade, pursuant to his answer of 14 June,Official Report, column 421, if he will make a statement on how his Department calculates whether collating information in relation to answering parliamentary questions constitutes disproportionate cost.

  Mr. Heseltine
  If the preparation of an answer is likely to cost more than the cost threshold, Ministers will consider whether to refuse to answer it on the ground of disproportionate cost. The current threshold of £450, calculated by the Treasury, was announced to the House by my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council, on 25 October 1993,Official Report, column 425.

  In respect of my earlier reply, the information requested is not readily available and could be obtained only with a great deal of staff effort.

  Mining Subsidence
  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade (1) what monitoring of consumer satisfaction will be undertaken for future and current procedures dealing with claims relating to mining subsidence;

  (2) how current claims for mining subsidence will be dealt with in active coalfields where coal extraction continues after August;

  (3) how private mining companies will compensate persons suffering from subsidence caused by their activities; and what action will be taken to ensure the rights of persons suffering damage;

  (4) how he will protect home owners' interests in future subsidence compensation cases involving private companies;

  (5) what plans he has to consider bringing forward amendments to the Coal Mining Subsidence Act 1991;

  (6) if he will make a statement on the arbitration procedure for coalfield subsidence matters after August.

  Mr. Eggar
  I refer the hon. Member to the Coal Industry Act 1994 and to the extensive documentation which my Department has made available, in particular: the draft subsidence regulations, the draft guide to claimants' rights, the revised coal authority explanatory note, and the revised draft model coal authority licensing documents.

  Mr. Hinchcliffe
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade how current case loads of mining subsidence claims will be dealt with after August; and what continuity arrangements have been set up for this work.

  Mr. Eggar
  This a matter for British Coal and other bodies, which may, under the Coal Industry Act 1994, acquire responsibility for subsidence in due course.

  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade if a single company will be able to operate both inspection and repair services for subsidence work in coal mining areas.

  Mr. Eggar
  It is not envisaged that the Coal Authority would permit these roles to be combined.

  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade (1) what will be the length of contracts for subsidence work in coalfield areas;

  (2) what projections he has for the number of persons dealing with mining subsidence claims after August;

  (3) in what circumstances tenders for coal mining subsidence work were accepted from loss adjusters, estate agents and insurance companies.

  Mr. Eggar
  This a matter for the British Coal Corporation.

  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade how many persons are currently employed in dealing with compensation claims within the mining industry.

  Mr. Eggar
  I am informed by British Coal that it currently employs 81 people, in technical and clerical grades, to deal with claims for damage caused by coal mining subsidence.

  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what insurance arrangements are available for persons who have suffered, are suffering or may suffer from subsidence damage from coal extraction.
  529
  Mr. Eggar
  Decisions on the terms and conditions of insurance cover, and whether to offer cover at all, are matters solely for insurers to determine in the light of their commercial judgment. Where a property has been affected by coal mining subsidence damage, the statutory provisions for dealing with coal mining subsidence damage mean that the cost of such damage is borne by the coal industry. Coal mining subsidence should not therefore be pertinent to decisions on whether or not to offer insurance cover so long as satisfactory repairs have been carried out. The Coal Mining Subsidence Act 1991 provides those affected with a right to require that repairs are carried out to their reasonable satisfaction.

  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what discussions have taken place on subsidence compensation between officials of his Department and British Coal property division management; when these meetings took place; what was the outcome; and if he will put their minutes in the Library.

  Mr. Eggar
  Officials of my Department have had discussions with British Coal on a wide range of issues, including subsidence matters. The Government's policy with regard to subsidence in future is set out in the Coal Industry Act 1994, and in the documentation which my Department has made available, in particular the draft subsidence regulations, the draft guide to claimants' rights, the revised Coal Authority explanatory note, and the revised draft model Coal Authority licensing documents.

  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what arrangements are available to provide compensation for subsidence where old mineworkings are shown to be the cause.

  Mr. Eggar
  Under the Coal Mining Subsidence Act 1991, British Coal is responsible for the repair of, or compensation for, all damage caused by coal mining subsidence in the United Kingdom. The age of mining does not affect claimants' rights, provided that any claim is made within six years of the damage first being noticed.

  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade where extra costs are identified by companies undertaking repairs to properties suffering subsidence damage; and what safeguards are available to ensure that these are reported and undertaken.

  Mr. Eggar
  Under the Coal Mining Subsidence Act 1991, claimants have a right to require that repairs are carried out to their reasonable satisfaction. All repairs are at British Coal's cost.

  South America
  Mr. Dalyell
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what terms apply to assistance from the DTI overseas project fund to studies by United Kingdom firms directed to securing contracts abroad in South America.

  Mr. Needham
  The overseas projects fund is available to assist United Kingdom companies with the costs of pursuing major projects overseas. The fund can help meet the costs of feasibility studies, consultancies and other pre-contractual activities with the object of increasing the number of contracts United Kingdom companies can pursue and win. The maximum amount of assistance offered is 50 per cent. of the costs involved. Where a contract is won with its help, overseas projects fund assistance is repayable.

  Electricity Disconnections
  Mr. Parry
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a statement as to why there is no code of practice governing the disconnection of commercial premises by electricity companies.

  Mr. Eggar
  This is a matter for the Director General of Electricity Supply. Disconnection of premises both commercial and domestic are covered by provisions contained in schedule 6 of the Electricity Act 1989.

  Mr. Parry
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade how many warrants in respect of electricity disconnection have been issued by Manweb during the last 12 months; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Eggar
  Neither my Department nor that of the Lord Chancellor keeps records of the number of warrants issued to individual companies in respect of electricity disconnection.

  Mr. Parry
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what notice must be given to electricity customers before an electricity company may apply for a warrant for disconnection of electricity.

  Mr. Eggar
  Under schedule 6 of the Electricity Act 1989, an electricity company can disconnect premises no earlier than 20 working days after the issue of a bill in the case of a domestic customer. For non-domestic customers, the period is 15 working days. In both instances, two working days notice is required before disconnection occurs.

  The Rights of Entry (Gas and Electricity Boards) Act 1954 does not require notice to be given to customers before application by an electricity company to a magistrate for a warrant of entry. All companies do, however, notify customers that this may happen where a bill remains unpaid and there is the possibility of disconnection occurring.

  Gas Storage Facilities
  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what requirement is made of licensed suppliers of gas to retain storage facilities for a given proportion of their supply obligations over any given period, to be held in land storage.

  Mr. Eggar
  Storage obligations will be set out in the network code which is currently being negotiated between British Gas, the Office of Gas Supply and independent suppliers.

  British Airports Authority
  Mr. Mackinlay
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade when it is proposed that BAA's monopoly of London's three principal airports shall be referred to the Monopolies and Mergers Commission.

  Mr. Neil Hamilton
  Under the Airports Act 1986, the CAA is required to refer designated airports to the MMC every five years before setting a formula which governs the amount which may be raised annually through charges. BAA's three London airports are to be reviewed in 1995–96.

  Impact Assessments
  Mr. Steen
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what are the criteria for determining which directives that emanate from his Department receive a fiche d'impact assessment.

  Mr. Neil Hamilton
  Decisions to prepare assessments under the fiche d'impact system are made by the European Commission. The basis for such decisions was most recently restated in a resolution on administrative simplification for enterprises, especially small and medium-sized enterprises, made by the Council of Ministers Industry Council meeting under the chairmanship of my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade during the British presidency on 24 November 1992. This invited the European Commission to prepare an assessment on all Commission proposals which may give rise to substantial burden for enterprises. My Department is assiduous in urging the Commission to undertake an assessment of every proposal relevant to our responsibilities which may give rise to a substantial burden for United Kingdom businesses. The deregulation unit also keeps watch on the Commission's operation of the fiche d' impact system, and concerts pressure from United Kingdom Departments for an assessment of every proposal which may give rise to a substantial burden for United Kingdom businesses.

  Utilities (Right of Entry)
  Mr. Parry
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what are the legal obligations to ensure that premises entered by force in accordance with section (2) of the Rights of Entry (Gas and Electricity Boards) Act 1954 are left in a secure and safe state after such entry has been gained.

  Mr. Eggar
  Section 2(5) of the Rights of Entry (Gas and Electricity Boards) Act 1954 requires any person who is authorised to enter premises by force under a warrant granted under section 2 of the Act to leave the premises as effectually secured against trespassers as he found them, if the premises are unoccupied or the occupier is temporarily absent.

  Cable Companies (Damage)
  Mr. Soley
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade, pursuant to his answer of 18 July,Official Report, column 23, regarding damage by cabling companies, if he will in future monitor and publish a list of incidents of damage; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Heseltine
  Enforcement of the street works requirements of the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991 is the responsibility of the street authority concerned. Instances of damage arising from street works would normally come to their attention during the exercise of their functions under the Act, and it would be for individual authorities to decide whether to publish a list of incidents.

  Office of Electricity Regulation
  Mr. Parry
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what is the source of funding for the Office of Electricity Regulation.

  Mr. Eggar
  The Office of Electricity Regulation is funded under the normal vote arrangements. OFFER is,532
  however, empowered by the Electricity Act 1989 and Electricity Act 1989 (Fees) Order 1990 to recover its full economic costs through the levying of fees for electricity meter examination and certification, electricity licence application fees and the granting of annual licences to electricity generators, transmission companies and public electricity and second-tier suppliers.

  Research Laboratories
  Mr. Elletson
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what targets he has set his Department's research laboratories for 1994–95.

  Mr. Heseltine
  As I stated in my written answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Mr. Jessel), on 14 April 1994,Official Report, columns 251–53, reporting the outcome of the review into the future options for my Department's research laboratories, the Laboratory of the Government Chemist, the National Engineering Laboratory and the National Physical Laboratory all have good records of meeting the targets that they have been set and improving their performance from year to year. Their results for last year, which will be made available when their annual reports and accounts for 1993–94 are laid before the House, all show that improvements continued to be made: these have been achieved despite the tougher competition which the laboratories faced in winning and retaining work from public and private sector customers.

  The targets that I have set LGC and NEL for 1994–5, together with the five-year targets that were set for NPL on becoming an agency on 3 July 1990, Official Report, columns 499–500 are set out in the tables. In addition, I expect the chief executives of the agencies to continue to reply within 10 working days to all letters from Members of Parliament delegated to them for reply.
  Primary Financial Targets

  LGC Recovery of full costs from income for customer work.

  NEL Recovery of full costs through "arms-length" contracts from customers by 1994–95.

  NPL Recovery of full costs from income for customer work.

  Secondary Targets

  LGC To achieve an average rate of 90 per cent. for completion of reports on analysis of (or research into) samples by the date agreed with customers for the year as a whole.

  To achieve more than 85 per cent. of contract research milestones within the timescale agreed with the customer.

  To maintain NAMAS accreditation for the categories of work in which the Laboratory operates, registration for Good Laboratory Practice (GLP) and Laboratory-wide registration to BS5750 (ISO 9001).

  NEL To increase the number of non-DTI clients who provide revenues of more than £100k per annum by 50 per cent.

  To introduce by September 1994 a revised Divisional base organisation designed to facilate privatisation.

  To arrange training programmes to ensure the managers in the revised organisation acquire the new competences needed for a transition to private sector working practice.

  By September 1994 to introduce an improved version of the contract completion questionnaire to reflect the input from all clients in 1993–94.

  To carry out customer consultation post-completion reviews of 20 per cent. of all contracts in excess of £250k.

  By September 1994 to achieve laboratory-wide ISO9001 accreditation for those eligible areas which did not receive accreditation by the end of 1993–94.

  NPL To improve to 90 per cent. by 1994–95 the percentage of calibrations completed within six weeks.

  To complete at least 95 per cent. of contract research investigations on time over the period 1990–91 to 1994–95.

  533

  To increase by at least 3 per cent. the number of research milestones achieved annually per scientist over the period 1990–91 to 1994–95.

  To reduce the cost of administrative support so that by 1994–95 it represents no more than 20 per cent. of NPL's full economic cost.

  To increase the proportion of staff time attributed to programme-related work by 5 per cent. over the period 1990–91 to 1994–95.

  To reduce the cost of NPL per member of project staff by 2 per cent. per annum over the period 1990–91 to 1994–95.

  To secure a combination of output efficiency and cost reduction measures which, taken together, represent a requirement on NPL to improve its overall efficiency by more than 2 per cent. a year over the period 1990–91 to 1994–95.

  Mr. Elletson
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a statement about the future of the National Weights and Measures Laboratory.

  Mr. Heseltine
  In my reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Mr. Jessel) on 14 April 1994,Official Report, columns 251–53, I undertook to make a further announcement on the future of the National Weights and Measures Laboratory.

  I am today placing in the Library of the House the report on NWML by the consultants KPMG Peat Marwick.

  I have decided that NWML should remain a next steps agency within my Department. I am giving further consideration to moving the agency onto a financial control regime which will provide it with the scope it needs to utilise its expertise and facilities more fully in meeting a wider range of its customers' needs on a self-financing basis.

  I have set NWML the following targets for 1994–95:
  to ensure that its fee earning activities remain self-financing;
  to increase their output per person employed by 2 per cent.;
  to reduce the real cost of a programme hour by 2 per cent.;
  to complete 92 per cent. of all type examinations within 14 weeks and
  to complete 96 per cent. of all calibration jobs (including preparation of certificates) within 4 weeks of acceptance of the work.

  In addition, I expect the chief executive of the agency to continue to reply within 10 working days to all letters from Members of Parliament delegated to him for reply.

  Investment Projects
  Mr. Elletson
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a statement on the United Kingdom's performance in attracting internationally mobile investment projects in 1993–94.

  Mr. Heseltine
  My Department's Invest in Britain Bureau announced in its annual report published today that 1993–4 was another very successful year for attracting inward investment into the United Kingdom.

  Some 404 direct investment projects were recorded by the IBB for the period 1 April 1993 to 31 March 1994. This is an increase of 101 projects over the previous year's recorded figures and demonstrates quite clearly just how attractive the United Kingdom continues to be to overseas investors. It is also worth noting that, based on information supplied at the time of the announcements, 28,727 new jobs are expected to be created—an increase of 12,009 over last year's figures—out of a total of 96,009 jobs linked to the 404 projects.

  These results provide strong evidence that, despite ever-increasing competition from elsewhere in the European Community, the United Kingdom has retained its No. 1 spot in Europe for attracting inward investment.
  534
  The results are also an indication of the effective partnership that the Invest in Britain Burea has with the many public and private sector organisations involved in the promotion of inward investment at home and, along with colleagues in the overseas posts of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, in existing and emerging markets abroad.

  I am arranging for a copy of the report to be placed in the House of Commons Library.

  Government Departments (Payment of Bills)
  Mr. Elletson
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what proportion of bills are paid on time by Government Departments; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Heseltine
  Government Departments and their agencies are required to monitor their payment performance and publish the results in their annual reports. The following table lists by Department the proportion of bills paid within the agreed credit period, or within 30 days where no credit period has been agreed, for 1993–94.

  The Government recognise that late payment is a serious problem, particularly for small businesses, and it is essential that the Government set an example. Though Government payment performance continues to improve overall, there remains room for further improvement.

  New measures were announced in the White Paper on competitiveness. Government Departments and their agencies will now be required to:
  abide by the CBI prompt payers code;
  set out in their annual reports their payment policies and to state whether they have observed the principles of the CBI code, and
  publicise their arrangements for handling complaints of failure to pay on time.

  The Government expect all other public sector bodies to follow their lead.

  Department/agency

  Per cent. invoices paid within target

  Benefits Agency

  94·0

  Cabinet Office/OPSS

  78·0

  Central Statistical Office

  77·0

  COI

  83·0

  Crown Prosecution Service

  82·0

  Customs and Excise

  90·0

  Defence

  99·9

  Education

  80·0

  Employment Department/ACAS

  95·6

  Employment Service

  85·4

  Environment

  90·0

  Foreign and Commonwealth Office

  95·0

  Health and Safety Executive

  89·6

  Health

  87·1

  HMSO

  80·0

  Home Office

  72·0

  Inland Revenue

  86·0

  Lord Chancellor's

  89·4

  MAFF

  85·0

  National Heritage

  85·0

  National Savings

  97·6

  Northern Ireland Office and NICS

  92·0

  Overseas Development Administration

  88·0

  Paymaster General

  96·3

  Registry of Friendly Societies

  95·0

  Scottish Office

  89·0

  Social Security

  94·0

  Trade and Industry

  90·0

  Transport

  93·6

  Treasury

  93·0

  Welsh Office

  87·0

  Market Testing
  Mr Elletson
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he has reached a decision on the market testing of IT services in his Department.

  Mr. Heseltine
  The market test of the IT services branch of the Department has now been concluded and it has been decided to award a contract to Hoskyns Group plc whose bid was judged to represent the best value for money.

  Atomic Energy Authority
  Mr. Elletson
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what financial target and capital expenditure limits have been set for the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority for 1994–95.

  Mr. Eggar
  The UKAEA's financial target for 1994–95 has been set as a 6·7 per cent. return on average capital employed, calculated according to the historic cost convention as modified. The target is based on profit earned on ordinary activities before long-term interest payable and the costs and proceeds of the sale of the UKAEA's facilities services division. I have also approved the UKAEA's capital expenditure programme for the year at £14 million.

  Dual-use Goods Regulation
  Sir John Hannam
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a statement on recent developments in the negotiation of the EC dual-use goods regulation.

  Mr. Needham
  I am pleased to report that, in the last few days, a text of the regulation, and an associated intergovernmental decision in the form of a joint action under the common foreign and security policy, has been agreed by Ministers of all 12 member states. The agreement marks the first step towards a common system for the control of exports of sensitive goods from the Community. The regulation and joint action are intended to apply from 1 January 1995. Starting from that date, it is envisaged that there will be a transitional period to be reviewed within three years, and during which particularly sensitive dual-use goods will continue to be subject to licensing when despatched from one member state to another. During this period, member states will work to create a strong external control fence around the Community. This will be a prerequisite if all member states are to be in a position to honour their non-proliferation commitments. Depending on the success of this strengthening work and progress in harmonising national export control policies, the member states will decide at the end of the transitional period whether to introduce licence-free trade in all dual-use goods within the Community.

  Audit Monitoring
  Sir John Hannam
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a statement on the outcome of his review of audit monitoring.

  Mr. Neil Hamilton
  The new arrangements for monitoring registered company auditors were set up under part II of the Companies Act 1989. It was agreed at the time 536
  with the recognised supervisory bodies that it would be sensible to review those monitoring systems in the light of experience.

  At the end of last year, therefore, I asked the RSBs to report to me on the effectiveness of their monitoring. I also asked Professor Peter Moizer of Leeds university to provide me with an independent assessment of the state of audit monitoring.

  I have now considered these reports. They show that the present system of monitoring is generally working well and that the substantial efforts and resources which the RSBs are devoting to it are bringing to light cases of under-performance, and helping to remedy them where they exist. The first two years' monitoring has also shown that there is a range of performance among audit practices, and that there is scope for improvement among many of those inspected.

  Against that background, I have therefore asked the RSBs to put in place a wider range of monitoring methods to ensure that overall, and within present resources, a higher proportion of the registered auditor population is inspected than is currently the case; to match the monitoring techniques more closely to the widely differing circumstances of practitioners; and to identify and target those firms where achieving the required standards may present a greater challenge. The RSBs will be submitting these plans to me in the autumn.

  These changes will reflect one of the main messages of Professor Moizer's report: the need for the RSBs to adopt greater flexibility in the monitoring methods that they employ. Professor Moizer's report has made a valuable contribution to the development of audit regulation policy, and I am today placing copies of the report in the Libraries of the House.

  British Coal (Pensions)
  Sir John Hannam
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what progress is being made on drafting the regulations and related documents that will be needed to implement the new arrangements for British Coal pensions after privatisation.

  Mr. Eggar
  I am today placing in the Libraries of both Houses copies of the latest drafts of the regulations and related documents needed to implement the new arrangements for the mineworkers' pension scheme and British Coal staff superannuation scheme after privatisation. The documents are grouped in six volumes as follows:

  1. MPS (Modification) Regulations; MPS Scheme and Rules; MPS Guarantee Deed;

  2. SSS (Modification) Regulations; SSS Scheme and Rules; SSS Guarantee Deed;

  3. Industry-Wide Coal MPS Regulations; Industry-Wide Coal MPS Trust Deed and Rules; Coal Industry (Protected Persons) Pensions Regulations;

  4. Industry-Wide Coal SSS Regulations; Industry-Wide Coal SSS Trust Deed and Rules; Coal Industry (Protected Persons) Pensions Regulations;

  5. Memoranda and Articles of Association for MPS Trustees Ltd., Industry-Wide MPS Trustees Ltd. and Industry-Wide MPS Co-ordinator Ltd.;

  6. Memoranda and Articles of Association for Coal SSS Trustees Ltd., Industry-Wide Coal SSS Trustees Ltd., and Industry Wide Coal SSS Co-ordinator Ltd.

  These draft documents flow from schedule 5—the pensions schedule—of the Coal Industry Act 1994. The drafts are being prepared in close consultation with the trustee of the MPS and SSS and are nearing finalisation. It

  537
  is currently intended that the modification regulations for the MPS and SSS should be laid before Parliament in August for coming into force in September. The industry-wide MPS and SSS regulations and the Coal Industry (Protected Persons) Pensions Regulations will be laid later.

  Earlier working drafts of the documents contained in volumes 1, 2, 3 and 4 as listed above were placed in the Libraries of both Houses on 22 February. Drafts of the documents contained in volumes 5 and 6 have not been provided previously and some explanation of their purpose may be helpful.

  The new documents, which are also being prepared in close consultation with the trustees of the MPS and SSS, are the memoranda and articles of association of six new companies: two trustee companies for the modified MPS and SSS, two trustee companies for the industry-wide MPS and SSS and two "co-ordinator companies", whose purpose is explained below. All the pension schemes will provide that the duties of their trustee, which as in the present SSS will be a trustee company, shall be exercised through the board of directors of that trustee company. The directors of the trustee companies will thus have duties and responsibilities corresponding to those of individually appointed trustees. Each of the trustee companies for the modified schemes will have equal numbers of directors appointed on behalf of scheme members and the Government respectively. The trustee companies for the industry-wide schemes will have equal numbers of directors appointed on behalf of employees and employers respectively.

  Each of the two industry-wide schemes will be established by a specially formed "co-ordinator company" which will exercise a "principal employer" role under the industry-wide schemes. All the directors of the "co-ordinator companies" will be appointed by employers of members of the relevant industry-wide scheme.

  Small Company Audit
  Sir John Hannam
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade when he expects the regulations in respect of the abolition of the small company audit to come into effect.

  Mr. Neil Hamilton
  The regulations have been laid before the House today and will enter into force on 11 August 1994.

  Regional Challenge
  Sir John Hannam
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a statement on progress being made on the implementation of regional challenge.

  Mr. Heseltine
  As I announced in the White Paper on competitiveness, the first round of regional challenge competitions will be held later this year after the European Commission adopts the "Single Programming Documents" which govern structural funds money. A second round will follow three years later.

  In agreement with the Commission, prize money for regional challenge will amount to 10 per cent. of the European regional development fund for each eligible area plus 10 per cent. of that sum from the area's European social fund allocation. This equates to some £160 million across the eligible English and Welsh areas for each of the two rounds of competitions.
  538
  The arrangements for the operation of regional challenge will be set out in guidelines which the Government will draw up in the light of consultations with local partnerships.

  Bids will need to satisfy the general criteria for structural fund assistance, and will be assessed against a number of additional criteria, to be finalised in the light of the consultations.

  They are likely to include:
  private sector leverage;
  comprehensive area-based regeneration effects;
  a significant contribution to regional competitiveness;
  strategic importance for the region as a whole; and
  contribution to several of the measures specified in the Single Programming Document.

  Final decisions on projects will be taken by Ministers on the basis of recommendations from the monitoring committees of local partnerships.

  Bofors (Iraqi Exports)
  Mr. Meacher
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will list in full the communications his Department has had with various Departments of the Swedish Government in relation to the investigation regarding Bofors exports to Iraq and all the occasions when officers from his Department liaised with officials of the Swedish Government and Bofors; and what action any official in his Department took with regard to Bofors.

  Mr. Needham
  [holding answer 19 July 1994]: I am not aware of any such contacts.

  Special Advisers
  Mr. Milburn
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade (1) how many special advisers who left his Department in each of the last five years became(a) management consultants and (b) joined a firm of consultants.

  (2) if he will publish the names of the employers joined by special advisers who left his Department in each of the last five years.

  Mr. Heseltine
  [holding answers 20 July 1994]: There is no requirement for special advisers to provide details of their employers after leaving Government service.

  Mr. Milburn
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade how many special advisers have(a) joined and (b) left his Department in each of the last five years.

  Mr. Heseltine
  [holding answer 20 July 1994]: The information requested, as far as it is available, is as follows:

  Name

  Date of Appointment

  End of Appointment

  Tony Allen

  21 March 1994

  —

  Dr. Walter Eltis

  1 January 1993

  —

  Dr. Alan Kemp

  28 May 1992

  —

  Lady Strathnaver

  21 April 1992

  —

  Lance Anisfeld

  21 April 1991

  10 April 1992

  Jeremy Mayhew

  24 September 1990

  10 April 1992

  Mrs. Katherine Ramsey

  25 July 1989

  14 July 1990

  Michael Simmonds

  23 October 1989

  30 July 1990

  Charles Hendry

  1 September 1988

  24 July 1989

  Peter Luff

  28 September 1988

  24 July 1989

  Universal Postal Service
  Mr. Robin Cook
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade, pursuant to his answer of 12 July,Official Report, column 509, what view the British Government have offered on whether the legal basis for the European Commission's proposed directive defining the set of services which may be reserved at national level should be article 90 or article 100A of the treaty of Rome.

  Mr. Heseltine
  [holding answer 20 July 1994]: We have made clear to the European Commission our view that it would be preferable for all directives implementing the single market in postal services to have as their legal basis article 100A of the treaty of Rome. We accept, however, that if satisfactory progress under article 100A proves impossible, the Commission could resort to article 90 for a directive setting limits to the services that may be reserved at national level.

  Appeal received

  Health board/NHS trust

  Site area

  Determination

  Lothian health board

  21 November 1991

  Northern General hospital, Edinburgh

  1.21 hectares (3 acres)

  Appeal sustained 2 July 1992

  Greater Glasgow health board

  12 November 1993

  Broomhill hospital, Kirkintilloch

  1.21 hectares (3 acres)

  Not yet determined

  3 June 1994

  Leverndale hospital, Glasgow

  1.21 hectares (3 acres)

  Not yet determined

  Publicity
  Mr. McFall
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will detail the publicity budget for each Scottish Office Department for each of the past five years.

  Mr. Lang
  I shall write to the hon. Member as soon as possible and place a copy of the letter in the Library of the House.

  Small Businesses
  Mr. David Shaw
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the achievements of(a) his policies and (b) his Department in helping small businesses over the last 12 months as against the previous 12 months; if he will publish the performance indicators by which his Department monitors those achievements and the statistical results of such monitoring; and if he will set out his targets to help small businesses in the next year.

  Mr. Stewart
  The Government recognise the crucial role played by small firms in the UK economy. The Government help small firms by keeping inflation and interest rates low and by reducing legislative and administrative burdens. The Scottish Office Industry Department also provides direct assistance where

SCOTLAND

  Water Supply
  Mr. Worthington
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what access the proposed new water boards will have to personal details of water users including household size or income, which is currently held by regional councils.

  Sir Hector Monro
  I shall write to the hon. Member as soon as possible and arrange for a copy of the letter to be placed in the Libraries of the House.

  NHS Land
  Mrs. Fife
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will list from 1991–92 onwards those health boards and NHS trusts who have appealed to him against local authorities' refusal of planning permission for their intended use of surplus land; what was the total acreage involved in each case; and which appeals were approved by himself.

  Mr. Stewart
  The information requested is set out in the table. Each of the appeals detailed were delegated by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland for determination by a Scottish Office inquiry reporter.

  appropriate including the regional enterprise grant scheme which has elements for investment and innovation projects, and regional selective assistance.

  Scottish Enterprise, Highlands and Islands Enterprise and their network of 22 local enterprise companies have at their disposal a wide range of measures through which they are able to support new and established small businesses.

  A significant recent initiative by SE has been the establishment with local authorities, chambers of commerce and other partners of the Scottish business shop network in order to provide easy access to first-stop business advice. Actual and planned performance indicators for the range of Scottish Enterprise network activity, including advice to businesses and new business start-ups, are published annually in the annual reports of these organisations and in the expenditure plans for the Departments of my right hon. Friend.

  Water Charges
  Mr. Worthington
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland to what central and local government sources of information the proposed new water companies will have access in fixing water charges, taking into account the ability to pay.

  Sir Hector Monro
  I shall write to the hon. Member as soon as possible and arrange for a copy of the letter to be placed in the Libraries of the House.

  Sight Tests
  Mrs. Fyfe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what has been the estimated saving to the NHS in Scotland from the abolition of free NHS sight tests in 1989.

  Mr. Stewart
  We estimate that the savings made to April 1994 as a result of the restriction of the categories of people eligible for an NHS sight test in 1989 were between £36 million and £39 million in cash terms.

  Purchasing Advice
  Mrs. Fyfe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will promote the purchase of cruelty-free and environmentally-friendly products by advice to his purchasing departments and to local authorities.

  Mr. Lang
  My Department published a policy statement on green housekeeping in January 1992 and has subsequently taken a number of initiatives to increase its use of products which are environmentally friendly. A review of the 1992 policy is now being undertaken with a view to further promoting the use of environmentally friendly products within the Scottish Office.

  It is for local authorities to determine their own purchasing policies. But the Government seek to encourage them to adopt a systematic approach to the management of the environmental impact of their activities. Accordingly, my Department ran two workshops for local authorities in February to promote guidance published in October 1993 on a voluntary eco-management and audit scheme. In September 1993, my Department published a model local environmental charter in consultation with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities.

  Patient Waiting Times
  Mrs. Fyfe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what has been the circulation of the information services division of the Common Services Agency of the NHS Scotland document, "NHS Patient Treatment and Waiting Time Bulletin".

  Mr. Stewart
  A copy of the "NHS Patient Treatment and Waiting Time Bulletin" is sent to the following:

  Health board general managers

  Unit general managers

  Directors of finance

  Directors of public health

  NHS trust chief executives

  NHS trust medical directors

  Health service information and records officers

  Senior officers of the Scottish Office Home and Health Department

  Privilege Libraries, including House of Commons Library

  The press

  On request

  Private organisations and members of the public

  Other NHS officers

  Members of Parliament

  Forestry
  Mr. Morley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will now announce the conclusions of the Forestry Review Group; and if he will make a statement.

  Sir Hector Monro
  I refer the hon. Member to the statement made by my right hon. Friend on 19 July 1994 at columns 177–91.
  542
  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will publish a table to show for each European Community nation the sums currently paid in grant per hectare in respect of planting(a) conifers and (b) broadleaf trees; what changes are proposed for future years for such schemes; and what items are grant aided.

  Sir Hector Monro
  There is no common forestry policy in the European Community and member states provide financial support for forestry in many different ways. It is therefore not possible to provide the information requested.

  Mr. Tipping
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement before the summer recess about his proposals for the future of the Forestry Commission.

  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland when he now expects to make a statement on the forestry review; and if he will then specify any changes in incentives for planting trees.

  Sir Hector Monro
  I refer the hon. Members to the statement made by my right hon. Friend on 19 July at columns. 177–91.

  Housing Finance
  Mrs. Fyfe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will publish, for each local authority's housing revenue account in 1979, 1984 and 1989(a) the amount of capital debt, (b) the loan charges and (c) the rent burden per house per annum based on the best on estimate available of the housing stock in each of these years.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  I shall write to the hon. Member and arrange for a copy of the letter to be placed in the Libraries of the House.

  Fatal Accident Inquiries
  Mr. Donohoe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many fatal accident inquiries were held in each procurator fiscal area in Scotland during the last financial year.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  The information is as follows.

  Fatal Accident Inquiries Held Financial Year 1993–94

  Numbers

  Aberdeen

  17

  Airdrie

  0

  Alloa

  3

  Arbroath

  0

  Ayr

  3

  Banff

  2

  Campbeltown

  0

  Cupar

  5

  Dingwall

  0

  Dornoch

  0

  Dumbarton

  7

  Dumfries

  2

  Dundee

  3

  Dunfermline

  0

  Dunoon

  2

  Duns

  0

  Edinburgh

  9

  Elgin

  1

  Falkirk

  2

  Forfar

  0

  Fort William

  0

  Glasgow

  22

  543

  Numbers

  Greenock

  3

  Haddington

  0

  Hamilton

  11

  Inverness

  4

  Jedburgh

  2

  Kilmarnock

  2

  Kirkcaldy

  5

  Kirkcudbright

  0

  Kirkwall

  1

  Lanark

  5

  Lerwick

  0

  Linlithgow

  1

  Lochmaddy

  0

  Oban

  1

  Paisley

  13

  Peebles

  0

  Perth

  5

  Peterhead

  2

  Portree

  0

  Rothesay

  0

  Selkirk

  0

  Stirling

  4

  Stonehaven

  2

  Stornoway

  0

  Stranraer

  3

  Tain

  0

  Wick

  1

  Total

  143

  Rating Valuations
  Mr. McLeish
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) what assessment he has made of the impact of the revaluation of non-domestic properties on the retail, commercial and manufacturing sectors of industry;

  (2) if he will make a statement on the revaluation of non-domestic properties in Scotland.

  Mr. Stewart
  Comprehensive estimates of the outcome of revaluation are not yet available. Once they are, my right hon. Friend will consider their implications for the setting of 1995–96 rate poundages and other related matters.

  Mr. McLeish
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received from industry or business organisations about the revaluation of non-domestic properties in Scotland.

  Mr. Stewart
  Since the beginning of June I have received five letters on this issue.

  Mr. McLeish
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he has any plans to meet the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities to discuss the revaluation of non-domestic properties.

  Mr. Stewart
  Neither my right hon. Friend nor I have any plans to meet COSLA specially to discuss this issue. It is, however, one of the issues that may be discussed in the forum of our regular meetings with COSLA to discuss local government finance matters. The next such meeting is due to be held on 22 July.

  Scottish Agricultural Wages Board
  Dr. Strang
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) what is his latest estimate of the number of persons whose pay and conditions are covered by the Scottish agricultural wages board, for each region of Scotland;

  (2) what is his latest estimate of the total number of persons whose pay and conditions are covered by the Scottish agricultural wages board.
  544
  Sir Hector Monro
  At 1 June 1993 the number of persons employed on agricultural holdings by region and Scotland was:

  Number

  Shetland

  280

  Orkney

  563

  Western Isles

  257

  Highland

  1,887

  Grampian

  4,963

  Tayside

  3,255

  Fife

  1,550

  Lothian

  1,639

  Borders

  2,303

  Central

  942

  Strathclyde

  5,030

  Dumfries and Galloway

  3,630

  Scotland

  26,299

  Troon Housing Office
  Mr. Donohoe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how much Kyle and Carrick district council spent on the refurbishment of its Troon housing office; and how much this project was originally budgeted for.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  The information requested is not held centrally. This is a matter for Kyle and Carrick district council.

  Veterinary Services
  Mr. Wallace
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland when officials in his Department last met representatives of the British Veterinary Association to discuss future arrangements for the highlands and islands veterinary services scheme; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Lang
  Officials from my Department met a representative of the British Veterinary Association in May to discuss the future arrangements for the highlands and islands veterinary services scheme. Following that meeting we are giving future consideration to what changes need to be made to the scheme.

  Mr. Wallace
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many representations he has received since 1 January regarding the future of the highlands and islands veterinary services scheme; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Lang
  Since 1 January 1994, representations have been received from the president of the British Veterinary Association and from the Outer North Isles action group.

  Road Improvements
  Mr. Tom Clarke
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what are his proposals for road improvements between Cutty Sark bridge and Newhouse in the Strathclyde region.

  Mr. Lang
  The line orders and compulsory purchase order for the section of the M8 motorway between Baillieston, to the west of Cutty Sark bridge, and Newhouse were published in November 1993 and May 1994 respectively. These proposals are being taken forward in phases and, subject to the satisfactory completion of statutory procedures and the availability of
  545
  finance, it is provisionally planned that the first of these between Drumpark junction and Chapelhall will start between April 1995 and March 1997.

  Suilevan Ferry
  Mr. Macdonald
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland on how many occasions in the past two years the Suilevan ferry has been loaded to maximum freight capacity on the Stornoway to Ullapool service.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  The Scottish Office does not hold detailed operational information of this nature. I understand that Caledonian MacBrayne does not have the information requested in a readily available form. I have, however, asked the chairman to write to the hon. Member to explain what information is available on this subject.

  Housing Waiting Lists
  Mrs. Fyfe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will carry out a study of the length of time on waiting lists for local authority, housing association and other accommodation for rent experienced by ethnic minority households.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  I shall write to the hon. Member as soon as possible and arrange for a copy of the letter to be placed in the Libraries of the House.

  St. Andrew's Day
  Mr. Maclennan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will consider the designation of St. Andrew's Day as a public holiday in Scotland.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  Public holidays in Scotland are not defined in statute, but by long tradition and practice are determined by individual local authorities in consultation with local interests. My right hon. Friend has no power to intervene in this process.

  Drug Abuse
  Mr. Kynoch
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will publish the Government's response to the main conclusions and recommendations contained in the Scottish Affairs Committee's first report of Session 1993–94 on drug abuse in Scotland, HC 52.

  Mr. Lang
  I have today published "Drug Abuse in Scotland: Government Response", Cm 2629. The Government have welcomed the wide-ranging inquiry carried out by the Committee into this complex and serious problem. Many of the issues covered by the Committee are being addressed by the drugs task force led by my noble and learned Friend, the Minister of State and will be reflected in its report. As the Government's response indicates, the Committee's report, with the work of the task force, will help provide a clear and robust framework within which drug misuse in Scotland can be vigorously and comprehensively tackled.

  Council Tax
  Mr. Kynoch
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what proposals he has to make regulations which will prevent council tax payers from having to pay arrears of council tax when their property banding has been altered upwards due to an inaccuracy in the original list.
  546
  Mr. Stewart
  My right hon. Friend proposes to make regulations later this year which will ensure that in future any increases in council tax banding resulting from the correction of an error in the original list will come into effect only from the date on which the list was altered.

  Local Government Reorganisation
  Mr. Kynoch
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what arrangements he intends to make for the provision of advice to local authorities on staffing issues which arise out of the Government's proposals for local government reorganisation.

  Mr. Lang
  The proposed restructuring of local government will have significant implications for local authority staff. Clause 12 of the Local Government etc. (Scotland) Bill provides for the establishment of a staff commission to exercise functions in relation to the staff and the staffing of authorities. In advance of the commission being established, I have appointed a staff advisory committee, chaired by Mr. Robert Peggie, who took up his appointment on 1 April 1994.

  The advisory committee has, in the course of its work, had discussions with a number of local authorities. As a result of those discussions it has become clear that additional work is required and in particular that there is a pressing need from authorities for advice on the staffing issues which they need to consider. There is a need also for the preparation of advice for local authorities on individual staffing issues, some of which are very complex. I therefore intend to establish the staff commission in shadow form before the Bill receives Royal Assent.

  It is also my intention formally to designate the existing chairman and members of the staff advisory committee as a shadow staff commission. The shadow commission will continue the excellent work begun by the advisory committee as well as advising local authorities and making preparations for the establishment of the full commission following Royal Assent.

  Parliamentary approval for this expenditure was sought in the 1994–95 main estimates for housing and environmental services Scotland vote, class XIV, vote 7. This expenditure was subject to the passage of both the Appropriation Act and the Local Government etc. (Scotland) Bill. Pending Royal Assent of both Bills urgent expenditure estimated at £150,000 will be met by a repayable advance from the contingencies fund.

  Inquiry Reporter
  Mr. McKelvey
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) what percentage of appeals to the Scottish Office inquiry reporter is initiated by industry;

  (2) how long it takes on average for the Scottish Office inquiry reporter to notify him of his decision;

  (3) what percentage of appeals to the Scottish Office inquiry reporter are initiated by private citizens.

  Mr. Lang
  I shall write to the hon. Member as soon as possible and arrange for a copy of the letter to be placed in the Libraries of the House.

  Environmentally Sensitive Areas
  Mr. Wallace
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the allocated budget for the environmentally sensitive area schemes in Scotland for each year since 1989.
  547
  Mr. Lang
  The information is given in the following table:

  Financial year

  Approved estimate £ million

  1989–90

  1·000

  1990–91

  1·150

  1991–92

  1·500

  1992–93

  3·905

  1993–94

  5·283

  1994–95

  4·500

  Burley Healthcare
  Mr. Donohoe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if Ayrshire and Arran health board has now concluded a contract with Burley Healthcare.

  Mr. Stewart
  Ayrshire and Arran health board and Speciality Care plc, previously known as Burley Healthcare plc, are currently in the process of finalising a legal contract for care provision.

  Consultants
  Mr. Donohoe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what guidelines are currently in operation by his Department relating to the employment of public sector bodies by consultancy firms.

  Mr. Lang
  There are no guidelines on the employment of public sector bodies by consultancy firms.

  Sheep Quotas
  Mr. Maclennan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received about outstanding sheep quota applications to the national reserve; and if he will make a statement.

  Sir Hector Monro
  [holding answer 19 July 1994]: The Scottish Office Agriculture and Fisheries Department met recently with the National Farmers Union of Scotland to discuss the allocation of sheep annual premium quota to those producers who had applied to categories 3 to 7 of the 1993 national reserve. Allocations to category 1 and producers have already been made in full.

  £ million

  1990–91

  1991–92

  1992–93

  1993–94

  Pre-registration funding

  22,876

  24,012

  26,350

  26,370

  Funding of teacher training and support

  1,331

  1,786

  1,330

  950

  Police Access to Records
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many subject access requests were received by his Department involving access to national insurance records in the last year; how many subject access requests were received by each Scottish police force in the last year; what estimate he has as to the percentage of those requests which were enforced subject access requests; and if he will make a statement concerning his policy towards enforced subject access.
  548
  The Department received over 1,800 applications of which 1,600 were applications to categories 3 to 7. A large number of these applications did not contain the documentation necessary to support the claims and the Department wrote to the producers concerned giving them an additional period of time to provide this documentation. Provided these producers respond timeously to the Department's request it is anticipated that producers will receive notification of the quota allocations during September 1994.

  Mr. Maclennan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will consider a partial sheep quota allocation and partial payment to those sheep producers with outstanding applications to the national reserve.

  Sir Hector Monro
  [holding answer 19 July 1994]: I have considered the possibility of making partial allocations of sheep annual premium quota from the 1993 national reserve to allow partial payments of premium to be made. With more than half the applicants to the reserve still having to establish the validity of their claims it is impossible to estimate whether allocations will have to be scaled back and if so, what that scaling factor will be. Any partial allocations at this stage would therefore have to be very small, and since we currently expect to make the final allocations in two months' time I do not propose to make this additional step, which could in fact delay those final allocations.

  Nurse Training and Education
  Mr. Kirkwood
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will provide a breakdown of the spending on nurse education and training for the years 1990–1 to 1993–4 identifying the spending allocated to(a) pre-registration education, (b) post-registration education and (c) nurse teacher training and support.

  Mr. Stewart
  [holding answer 19 July 1994]: The following table sets out the funding of pre-registration nursing and midwifery education and training and of teacher training and support for the years 1990–91 to 1993–94. Funding of post-registration education is not identifiable separately.

  Mr. Lang
  I shall write to the hon. Member as soon as possible and place a copy of the letter in the Library of the House.

  Prisons
  Dr. Godman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will list the prisons that had surplus cell capacity as of 30 June; and if he will make a statement.

  Lord James-Douglas Hamilton
  Responsibility for the subject of the question has been delegated to the Scottish Prison Service under its chief executive, Mr. E. W. Frizzell. I have asked him to arrange for a reply to be given.
  549
  Letter from E. W. Frizzell to Dr. Norman Godman, dated 20 July 1994:
  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton has asked me to reply to your Question about the prisons that had surplus cell capacity as of 30 June.
  During any year a number of cells are unavailable for use for a variety of reasons, including redecoration or damage repair

  (1)

  (2)

  (3)

  (4)

  (5)

  Establishment

  Design capacity

  Cells available for use

  Prisoner population

  Cells not in use (3) (4)

  Aberdeen

  142

  136

  183

  6

  Barlinnie

  939

  861

  1,154

  78

  Castle Huntly

  144

  144

  64

  —

  Dumfries

  139

  129

  125

  10

  Dungavel

  135

  135

  120

  —

  Edinburgh

  508

  506

  631

  2

  Friarton

  56

  56

  77

  —

  Glenochil

  668

  538

  517

  131

  Greenock

  172

  172

  281

  —

  Inverness

  79

  68

  99

  11

  Longriggend

  177

  177

  198

  —

  Low Moss

  396

  396

  394

  —

  Noranside

  137

  137

  125

  —

  Penninghame

  85

  81

  54

  4

  Perth

  426

  408

  465

  18

  Peterhead

  271

  209

  210

  62

  Polmont

  414

  366

  374

  48

  Shotts

  535

  490

  460

  45

  Cornton Vale

  312

  179

  188

  34

  Totals

  5,637

  5,188

  5,719

  449

PRIME MINISTER

  Small Businesses
  Mr. David Shaw
  To ask the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on the achievements of(a) his policies and (b) his Department in helping small businesses over the last 12 months as against the previous 12 months; if he will publish the performance indicators by which his Department monitors those achievements and the statistical results of such monitoring; and if he will set out his targets to help small businesses in the next year.

  The Prime Minister
  The Government continue to help small businesses, through improvements to the business climate, through deregulation and, when appropriate, through specific programmes of support and assistance. The recently published White Paper on competitiveness has clear implications for small firms and will encourage the growth of the sector through a series of well targeted initiatives.

  Specific measures to assist small firms are the responsibility of my right hon. Friends, the President of the Board of Trade, the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Secretary of State for Wales. For details of specific programmes, I refer my hon. Friend to their replies today.

  War Widows
  Mr. Mackinlay
  To ask the Prime Minister on what occasions over the past two years a Minister has met representatives of the War Widows' Association in order to discuss the needs and interests of war widows.

  The Prime Minister
  Over the past two years the Minister with special responsibility for war pensions, my hon. and noble Friend, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary 550
  work, refurbishment (including in some cases, to provide night sanitation) or for other policy reasons (e.g., being retained in the event of an emergency). Against this background the information you requested—reflecting the position as at Friday 1 July—is set out in the attached table.

  of State at the Department of Social Security, has met formally with representatives of the War Widows' Association of Great Britain at four meetings of the Central Advisory Committee on War Pensions; he also met a deputation from the association on 12 April 1994. He has also discussed with representatives of war pensions committees—which may include members of the War Widows' Association—matters concerning the needs and interests of war widows; over the past two years there have been nine such occasions.

  Military Medals
  Mr. Mackinlay
  To ask the Prime Minister, pursuant to his answer of 27 January,Official Report, column 361, if he will reconsider his policy on whether a medal should be issued specifically for those who did national service.

  The Prime Minister
  We have no plans to institute an award specifically for those who served a period of national service in the armed forces. They were eligible for the range of official awards approved by the sovereign at the time.

  Ex-service Men and Women
  Mr. Mackinlay
  To ask the Prime Minister when he intends to meet representatives of the Royal British Legion to discuss the implications of the resolution passed by the House of Commons on 1 July that called for the appointment of a Minister for ex-service men and women; and if he will make a statement.

  The Prime Minister
  I have of course noted the resolution passed on 1 July, but I must draw the hon. Member's attention to the remarks made in the House by my hon. Friend, the Minister of State for the Armed Forces, on 19 July,Official Report, columns 163–64. The services that ex-service men and women require are varied and are

  551
  the responsibility of more than one Government Department. Ministers from those Departments can and do meet representatives of veterans' organisations, and I am sure that those arrangements will continue. I do not believe that the interests of veterans would be well served by the creation of an additional tier of bureaucracy in the form of a Ministry for Veterans' Affairs.

  I have received a request to meet representatives from the Royal British Legion, which I am currently considering.

  Proscripted Organisations
  Mr. Barnes
  To ask the Prime Minister what plans he has to extend the proscription of the Ulster Defence Association to Great Britain and to the Ulster Young Militants in Northern Ireland.

  The Prime Minister
  The Ulster Defence Association, like a number of other terrorist groups, is proscribed in Northern Ireland where it operates. The situation in Great Britain is kept under review. It should be remembered, however, that as a proscribed organisation in Northern Ireland the UDA already comes within the financial provisions of the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1989, and that it is therefore an offence to contribute funds to the UDA in Great Britain, as well as in Northern Ireland.

  The question of the proscription of the Ulster Young Militants is also kept under review, as explained by my right hon. Friend, the Minister of State for Northern Ireland, in his answer of 16 March 1994, Official Report, column 706.

  Lloyd's
  Mr. Jacques Arnold
  To ask the Prime Minister, what revisions have been made to the guidance in "Questions of Procedure for Ministers" in the light of the introduction of members' agent pooling arrangements in Lloyd's

  The Prime Minister
  The relevant paragraphs in "Questions of Procedure for Ministers" dealing with membership of Lloyd's have been revised to take account of recent developments in the way in which Lloyd's business is conducted, including the introduction of members agent pooling arrangements. The Secretary to the Cabinet circulated them to all Ministers on 5 July. The revised paragraphs, replacing paragraphs 118–123 of the latest version of "Questions of Procedure for Ministers", which I published on 19 May 1992, are as follows:"Membership of Lloyd's
  118. A Minister holding office as Prime Minister, Chancellor of the Exchequer or as President of the Board of Trade (Secretary of State for Trade and Industry), or a Minister holding office as a Minister in the Treasury who is responsible under the Chancellor of the Exchequer for taxation matters relating specifically to Lloyd's, or as a Minister in the Department of Trade and Industry responsible under the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry for insurance matters relating specifically to Lloyd's, should not become an underwriting member of Lloyd's. Such a Minister, if already a member of Lloyd's on appointment, should cease underwriting during tenure of that office.
  119. Apart from those Ministers covered by the specific requirements of paragraph 118 above, any Minister who is an underwriting member of Lloyd's should not take an active part in the management of the affairs of syndicates of which he/she is a member, and should on appointment as a Minister withdraw from any such active participation in management. Ministers who are underwriting members of Lloyd's should arrange their syndicate participation solely through a Members Agent Pooling
  552
  Arrangement. This requirement will operate from the 1995 year of account, or from the first year of account after appointment for newly appointed Ministers, subject to time being available for the procedures for joining a MAPA.
  120. No Minister who is a current underwriting member of Lloyd's should take part in any departmental or collective discussions or decisions affecting Lloyd's whether directly or indirectly (e.g., the Secretary of State for Transport in relation to questions concerning marine, aviation and transport insurance, the Secretary of State for Employment on questions concerning employers' liability insurance, Treasury Ministers on tax issues affecting Lloyd's).
  121. Some Ministers have ceased underwriting but still have open syndicate commitments in respect of past membership. Such Ministers should take no part in those departmental or collective discussions or decisions affecting Lloyd's (whether directly or indirectly) if their continuing benefits or liabilities in respect of the period before cessation might thereby be affected, and might therefore make them vulnerable to reasonable suspicion of exerting or being in a position of undue influence.
  122. A Law Officer who is an underwriting member of Lloyd's, or who still has open syndicate commitments in respect of past membership, should not tender advice on the formulation, application or enforcement of legislation relating to Lloyd's, or take part in any collective discussion or decision on any matters affecting Lloyd's and should, as far as is practicable, avoid taking enforcement decisions relating to Lloyd's.
  123. A Minister in whom powers under legislation relating to Lloyd's are vested should not delegate the exercise of those powers to any other Minister who is an underwriting member of Lloyd's or who still has open syndicate commitments in respect of past underwriting.
  123A. Every Minister is required, on appointment to a first Ministerial office, to obtain the Prime Minister's permission before continuing a connection with Lloyd's, however nominal. Any Minister wishing to establish or re-establish any such connection during his term of appointment should likewise obtain the Prime Minister's permission to do so. Before granting permission, the Prime Minister will need to be satisfied that the conditions indicated above will be met.
  123B. In addition, the Secretary of the Cabinet is required to keep a list of Ministers who are members of Lloyd's. He will ask all Ministers on appointment for the first time to Ministerial office whether they are a member of Lloyd's and if so whether they propose to continue or suspend underwriting while they hold that office. He will also ask those Ministers who are members of Lloyd's and who are appointed to a subsequent Ministerial office whether they propose to continue or suspend underwriting while they hold that office.
  123C. Where a Minister has a shareholding in an investment trust or any other entity which holds a corporate membership of Lloyd's, that shareholding should be treated on the same basis as any other by a Minister (see paras 109–17 of the May 1992 issue of QPM)."

  Special Advisers
  Mr. Milburn
  To ask the Prime Minister how many special advisers have(a) joined and (b) left his Department in each of the last five years.

  The Prime Minister
  [holding answer 20 July 1994]: The figures requested are as follows:

  Year

  Special Advisers

  (a)

  1989

  2

  1990

  3

  1991

  4

  1992

  5

  1993

  0

  11994

  1

  (b)

  1989

  2

  1990

  6

  1991

  1

  1992

  4

  1993

  2

  11994

  1

  1 To date.

  553
  Mr. Milburn
  To ask the Prime Minister (1) how many special advisers who left his Department in each of the last five years became(a) management consultants and (b) joined a firm of consultants;

  (2) if he will publish the names of the employers joined by special advisers who left his Department in each of the last five years.

  The Prime Minister
  [holding answer 20 July 1994]: There is no requirement for special advisers to provide details of their employers on leaving Government service, or thereafter.

  Electricity Companies
  Mr. Dowd
  To ask the Prime Minister what role his Office has played in negotiations over pay rises, share options and pension rights for the senior staff of electricity companies; and if he will make a statement.

  The Prime Minister
  [holding answer 20 July 1994]: None.

DEFENCE

  Military Criminal Justice
  Mrs. Anne Campbell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many district courts martial there were in 1991, 1992 and 1993.

  Mr. Hanley
  The number of district courts martial convened in the Army and RAF in 1991, 1992 and 1993 is as follows:

  1991

  1992

  1993

  Army

  716

  664

  630

  RAF

  140

  131

  123

  The Navy do not hold district courts martial, but rather give commanding officers greater powers of punishment than their Army and RAF counterparts.

  Mrs. Anne Campbell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what arrangements are made for soldiers posted abroad to have access to legal advice when an accused is questioned by the military police.

  Mr. Soames
  In overseas commands, arrangements are made for suspects to be advised by service lawyers. Where no service lawyer is available to give advice, the suspect is allowed to make a free telephone call to a lawyer in the United Kingdom. In rare circumstances—due to geographical location, the availability of a legal adviser or time, for example—it will not be possible for a suspect either to consult a legal adviser or to have one present at an interview.

  Mrs. Anne Campbell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what plans he has to review the military criminal justice system.

  Mr. Soames
  The services' system of discipline and criminal justice is governed by the Service Discipline Acts. The main purpose of the quinquennial Armed Forces Bills is to give authority, when they are enacted, for the Services 554
  Discipline Acts to continue in force for a further five years, but they are also an opportunity to review the Services Discipline Acts. The next Armed Forces Bill is due to be introduced in the 1995–96 Session.

  Mrs. Anne Campbell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence in how many courts martial cases the accused pleaded guilty in 1991, 1992 and 1993.

  Mr. Soames
  In 1991, about 675 guilty pleas were made at courts martial, across the three services, and 650 in 1992. Figures are not yet available for 1993.

  Mr. Gerald James
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence on what grounds the documents and diaries of Mr. Gerald James, the former chairman of the British Manufacturing and Research Company, were taken by the Ministry of Defence police; what information of relevance was gleaned from them; when they will all be returned to him; and if he will make a sttement.

  Mr. Soames
  In April 1990 as part of a wide-ranging MOD police corruption investigation, the BMARC premises at Grantham were searched with the consent of the managing director of Astra Holdings, the parent company of BMARC. At the time of this search, Mr. James had ceased to be employed by BMARC/Astra Holdings.

  Documents were found in the office that Mr. James had previously occupied. These were handed over to MOD police by the financial director of the company. On examination, they were considered to be relevant to the police inquiries. In 1993 at the conclusion of all aspects of the MOD investigation, the documents were returned to Astra Holdings' officially appointed receiver, Cork Gully.

  These documents were considered to be company documents and at no time were any documents taken into police possession directly from Mr. James.

  Navy, Army and Air Force Institute
  Mr. French
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what representations he has received about the privatisation of the NAAFI; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Soames
  No representations have been received about the privatisation of NAAFI. The way in which the organisation operates is intimately linked to the services, particularly in war, and offers advantages to the armed forces which could not be readily provided by a private sector company.

  Cadet Forces
  Mr. Bayley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many(a) private and (b) state-funded schools have cadet forces; and how many of these cadets forces are linked to (i) the Royal Navy, (ii) the Army and (iii) the Royal Air Force; how many pupils in (1) private and (2) state-funded schools are enrolled in cadet forces for each of the armed services; and how much the cadet forces in (x) private and (y) state-funded schools for each service cost his Department annually.

  Mr. Soames
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Imphal Barracks
  Mr. Bayley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what plans he has to identify a future MoD use for the offices at Imphal barracks, York, which are due to become vacant in mid-1996 when York-based army manning and records staff transfer to Kentigern House in Glasgow; and how he intends to consult(a) York city council and (b) the trade unions representing MoD civilian staff over future uses for these offices.

  Mr. Soames
  The office accommodation to be vacated is situated within Imphal barracks, and cannot be leased or disposed of. In accordance with our normal procedures we are looking for alternative defence uses for the accommodation; this work is still ongoing.

  If a defence use for the accommodation is found York city council will be notified. The city council would be consulted if we were proposing a material change of use or some form of development.

  If any alternative defence use affects MoD civilians then the proposal would be the subject of consultations with the trade unions in the normal way.

  Royal Air Force
  Mr. Bayley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will list the RAF squadrons and units that have been disbanded or reorganised in the last five years indicating(a) the broad nature of the work of the squadron or unit, (b) the date of the change, (c) whether the squadron or unit was subject to market testing and (d) whether any of the duties have been taken over by contractors; and if he will name the contractors in each applicable case.

  Mr. Soames
  The information required is not held centrally, nor in the form requested, and could be provided only at disproportionate cost.

  Mr. Bayley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will list the RAF squadrons and units which are currently or will as a result of the defence costs study be subject to(a) market testing or (b) contractorisation; and if he will indicate the broad nature of the work of the squadron or unit.

  Mr. Soames
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  University Air Squadrons
  Mr. Bayley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many university air squadrons there are; what they cost to run per year; how may university students were attached to them in each of the last five years; and how many of these students entered service with the RAF on completion of their courses in each of the last three years.

  Mr. Soames
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Property Sales
  Mr. Cox
  To ask the Secretary of Defence how many service properties that were owned by his Department have been sold in each of the last five years; and what was the yearly revenue received from these sales.

  Mr. Soames
  The term "service properties" is taken to mean land, buildings and residential dwellings. Details of the number of service properties sold are not held centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate costs.
  556
  The receipts received from the sale of service properties in each of the last five financial years are set out in the table:

  Financial Year

  Residential Dwellings1 £

  Land/ Buildings £

  Total £

  1989–90

  48,000,000

  23,200,000

  71,200,000

  1990–91

  46,000,000

  34,600,000

  80,600,000

  1991–92

  54,000,000

  48,300,000

  102,300,000

  1992–93

  42,000,000

  26,200,000

  68,200,000

  1993–94

  29,300,000

  41,400,000

  70,700,000

  1 Married quarters and civilian houses.

  Peacekeeping Manual
  Dr. Lynne Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) pursuant to his answers to the hon. Member for South Shields (Dr. Clark) of 10 February,Official Report, column 484, 4 March, Official Report, column 941, and 24 June, Official Report, columns 388–89 whether, account was taken in drawing up the two NATO documents on peacekeeping, of the advice received by his Department from the academic bodies consulted in the preparation of the United Kingdom manual on peacekeeping;

  (2) pursuant to his answer to the hon. Member for South Shields (Dr. Clark) of 4 March, Official Report, column 941, if he will list all the academic bodies consulted in the course of preparing the new United Kingdom manual on peacekeeping.

  Mr. Soames
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Radioactive Waste
  Mr. Frank Cook
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will list all sites within his Department where luminising operations have been or are carried out; what sums are required for containment or decontamination of wastes arising; what criteria govern the inclusion of such sites within the national radioactive waste inventory; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Soames
  As part of a review of its procedures for dealing with instances of land contamination on the defence estate, my Department is in the process of identifying sites where radium luminising work has been undertaken in the past and establishing the extent of decontamination work undertaken after luminising work was discontinued. It is too early to say what further containment or decontamination work may subsequently be required at such sites. In completing the national radioactive waste inventory, my Department acts in accordance with the guidance notes which require details of any waste allocated either for disposal to the BNFL land burial site at Drigg or for storage pending the availability of a national deep underground repository.

  Alcohol Abuse
  Mr. Hutton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what estimate he has made of the scale of alcohol abuse in the armed services.

  Mr. Soames
  Alcohol abuse in the armed forces is taken very seriously and considerable effort is put into dealing with alcohol-related problems. A comprehensive system of education and treatment has been developed
  557
  throughout the services. In addition to the collation of disciplinary data in respect of alcohol-related offences, numbers of alcohol dependence/chronic alcoholism cases are also monitored. There were 272 such cases in 1992, the latest year for which figures are available, compared with 369 cases in 1988. These represent 0·09 per cent. and 0·11 per cent. of service strength respectively.

  1988

  1989

  1990

  1991

  1992

  Royal Navy

  Males

  9

  13

  5

  7

  7

  Females

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Army

  Males

  20

  22

  12

  14

  10

  Females

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Royal Air Force

  Males

  20

  10

  10

  13

  6

  Females

  —

  1

  1

  —

  —

  Mr. Hutton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what was the annual expenditure in each year since 1989 of the Royal Navy, Army and RAF on alcohol abuse programmes expressed in constant 1994 prices.

  Mr. Soames
  Each of the services offers a comprehensive education programme to combat alcohol abuse plus treatment for alcohol dependency. Details of the costs involved are not held centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate cost.

  Air Collision
  Mr. Kirkwood
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when he expects to be able to publish the MoD board of inquiry findings into the reasons for the fatal collision between an RAF jet and civilian helicopter on on 23 June 1993; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Soames
  The summary of the RAF board of inquiry into this accident will be published shortly and copies placed in the Libraries of the House. In the meantime, I refer the hon. Member to the answer given by the then Minister of State for the Armed Forces to the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Wallace),Official Report, column 264.

  Civil Servants (Business Interests)
  Mr. Barnes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what are the rules in the Department's defence services section governing the interests or involvement of civil servants in private businesses related to the work and activities of his Department; and what information he has on such interests held by the current head of the defence services section.

  Mr. Freeman
  Officials must not put themselves in a position where their duty and their private interests conflict: they must not make use of their official position to further their private interests, or lay themselves open to suspicion of dishonesty. Responsibility for monitoring compliance with these regulations rests with line management. No central records are held.
  558
  Mr. Hutton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many service men and women were court martialled for drink-related offences in each of the three armed services in each of the last five years.

  Mr. Soames
  The numbers of service men and women convicted of drink-related offences at courts martial in the five years up to 1992, the latest date for which figures are available, are as follows:

  Territorial Army (Consultants)
  Mr. Tipping
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will list the consultants he has appointed to help recruitment to the Territorial Army with details of their terms of reference and the total cost to his Department.

  Mr. Soames
  My Department has not appointed any consultants to help recruitment to the Territorial Army. The advertising agency Saatchi and Saatchi was, however, awarded the single Army national advertising account in March 1994 and this includes national Territorial Army recruiting advertising.

  War Widows
  Mr. Mackinlay
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what representations the Government have received from the War Widows Association in respect of widows whose husbands fought in conflicts before 1974, and who have recently been widowed, about their difficulty in demonstrating for pension purposes that their late husband's deaths were due wholly, or in part, to their spouses' service in the armed forces.

  Mr. Soames
  My Department receives representations from the War Widows Association from time to time. We have not, however, recently received any concerning the demonstration that a service man's death was attributable to his service in respect of forces family pensions under the armed forces pension scheme, although such representations may have been received by the Department of Social Security which administers the war pensions scheme.

  RN Engineering College, Plymouth
  Mr. Jamieson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will consider giving 12 months notice of redundancy to all non-mobile grades of civilian employees at the Royal Naval engineering college, Manadon, Plymouth.

  Mr. Soames
  My Department gives staff under notice of redundancy at least the minimum period, usually six months, stipulated in the staff regulations which have been agreed with the trades unions. It is our practice, however, to give more notice wherever practicable.

  Official Service Residences
  Mr. Byers
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, pursuant to his answer of 18 July,Official Report, columns 62–64 if he will identify the county in which each of the numbered residences is situated and the rank of the officer in residence.

  Residence

  Location

  Rank

  1

  London

  Admiral

  2

  London

  Vacant

  3

  London

  Rear Admiral

  4

  London

  Rear Admiral

  5

  Middlesex

  Admiral

  6

  Middlesex

  Vice Admiral

  7

  Middlesex

  Rear Admiral

  8

  Middlesex

  Rear Admiral

  9

  Hampshire

  Admiral

  10

  Hampshire

  Rear Admiral

  11

  Hampshire

  Rear Admiral

  12

  Hampshire

  Vice Admiral

  13

  Hampshire

  Lieutenant General

  14

  Hampshire

  Surgeon Rear Admiral

  15

  Hampshire

  Surgeon Rear Admiral

  16

  Hampshire

  Commodore

  17

  Dorset

  Rear Admiral

  18

  Somerset

  Rear Admiral

  19

  Devon

  Vice Admiral

  20

  Devon

  Captain

  21

  Devon

  Rear Admiral

  22

  Devon

  Commodore

  23

  Devon

  Captain

  24

  Fife

  Vice Admiral

  25

  Fife

  Commodore

  26

  Strathclyde

  Commodore

  27

  Gibraltar

  Rear Admiral

  28

  USA

  Vice Admiral

  29

  London

  Field Marshal

  30

  London

  Air Chief Marshal

  31

  London

  General

  32

  London

  General

  33

  London

  General

  34

  London

  Lieutenant General

  35

  London

  Major General

  36

  London

  Major General

  37

  Hampshire

  Lieutenant General

  38

  Surrey

  Major General

  39

  Surrey

  Major General

  40

  Wiltshire

  Major General

  41

  Wiltshire

  Major General

  42

  Wiltshire

  Lieutenant General

  43

  Wiltshire

  General

  44

  Wiltshire

  Major General

  45

  Wiltshire

  Lieutenant General

  46

  Lothian

  Major General

  47

  Northern Ireland

  Lieutenant General

  48

  Kent

  Brigadier

  49

  Yorkshire

  Major General

  50

  Hampshire

  General

  51

  Shropshire

  Major General

  52

  Germany

  Lieutenant General

  53

  Germany

  Major General

  54

  Belgium

  General

  55

  Belgium

  Field Marshal

  56

  Hong Kong

  Major General

  57

  Cyprus

  Major General

  58

  London

  Admiral

  59

  Buckinghamshire

  Air Chief Marshal

  60

  Buckinghamshire

  Air Chief Marshal

  61

  Buckinghamshire

  Air Marshal

  62

  Buckinghamshire

  Air Vice Marshal

  63

  Buckinghamshire

  Air Vice Marshal

  64

  Oxfordshire

  Air Vice Marshal

  65

  Middlesex

  Air Vice Marshal

  66

  Middlesex

  Air Marshal

  67

  Cambridgeshire

  Air Chief Marshal

  68

  Cambridgeshire

  Air Marshal

  69

  Cambridgeshire

  Air Vice Marshal

  70

  Hertfordshire

  Air Vice Marshal

  560
  Mr. Soames
  The county, or country where the residence is overseas, in which each of the numbered residences is situated and the rank of the officer in residence is shown in the table.
  561

  Residence

  Location

  Rank

  71

  Gloucestershire

  Air Chief Marshal

  72

  Gloucestershire

  Air Vice Marshal

  73

  Fife

  Air Commodore

  74

  Berkshire

  Air Vice Marshal

  75

  Lincolnshire

  Air Vice Marshal

  76

  Germany

  Air Vice Marshal

  77

  Holland

  Air Chief Marshal

  Minx Programme
  Mr. Keith Hill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what developments and for what reasons have taken place in the Minx programme; and which companies were involved in it.

  Mr. Freeman
  In 1991 industry conducted feasibility studies against a cardinal point specification for MINX to inform decisions about our future procurement strategy. The companies involved were Royal Ordnance, Huntings and Ferranti.

  Royal Marines School of Music
  Mr. David Shaw
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what covenants he has prepared relating to the upkeep of the listed buildings on the site of the Royal Marines school of music at Deal in the event of the sale of the site; and what effect the inclusion of the listed buildings is likely to have on the value of the site as a whole for private sector development.

  Mr. Soames
  As no decision has been made to sell the site at Deal, the question of preparing covenants relating to the upkeep of listed buildings has not arisen. The impact that listed buildings may have on the value of the site, should it be disposed of, will depend on the nature of any proposed future use, which would be considered under the normal planning and listed building processes.

  Mr. David Shaw
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) pursuant to his answer of 19 July, if he will commission an independent study by a firm of chartered accountant and management consultants of the commerci-ally confidential and operationally secret material relating to his proposals for the Royal Marines school of music, Deal; if he will include in the consultative document a summary of their assessment; and if he will allow suitably qualified consultants representing local interests access to the relevant material and the defence cost study;

  (2) if he will explain the different methods of setting out the cost of training of Royal Marines bandsmen used in the Minister of State's answer of 20 June, Official Report, column 64, and his oral statement of 14 July, Official Report, column 1171, and if he will set out a reconciliaton of the two different amounts on the basis of (a) annual costs and (b) total training period costs;

  (3) what assessment his Department has made of the market for military land and buildings in (a) Uxbridge, (b) Twickenham and (c) Deal;

  (4) pursuant to his answer of 19 July, if he will list the names and addresses of the principal contractors and sub-contractors used of maintenance by the Royal Marines school of music at Deal; and if he will estimate the contribution to the local economy of the annual spending on maintenance at the school of music;
  562
  (5) pursuant to his answer of 19 July, if he will make a statement on the reason for the level of expenditure on maintenance at the Royal Marines school of music at Deal; if he will provide an indication of the main heads of expenditure under this item each year; what assessment he has made of the value for money of this expenditure; and if he will publish figures for Uxbridge and Kneller Hall as a comparable basis to those given for Deal.

  Mr. Soames
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Dundrennan Test Range
  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what are the implications in regard to(a) future employment, (b) environmental restoration from con-tamination arising from testing activities and (c) the electromagnetic rail upon research, development demon-stration programme of his oral announcement on 14 July of the closure of the Dundrennan test range at Kirkcudbright, Official Report, column 172.

  Mr. Freeman
  The test and evaluation establishment Kirkcudbright currently employs 31 MOD civilians and about 100 contractors staff. The electro-magnetic launcher facility, which is operated by the Defence Research Agency, is not affected by the proposed closure and up to 25 people would need to be retained—primarily to maintain range security and safety—for as long as the DRA require the facility. As far as restoration from contamination is concerned, I refer the hon. Member to the reply of my hon. Friend the Minister of State for the Armed Forces to the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Ainger),Official Report, 15 July, column 818.

  Ministerial Speeches
  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make it his policy routinely to place in the Library copies of all speeches he, or other Ministers in his Department, make on matters for which they have departmental responsibility in the period 21 July to 16 October.

  Mr. Soames
  Arrangements will be made for copies of speeches made by Ministers in my Department in a public forum, which make policy statements, to be placed in the Library of the House.

  Mergers
  Mr. Meacher
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if it is his policy to refer mergers between major United Kingdom defence contractors and foreign-owned or based companies to(a) the Prime Minister, (b) the Secret Intelligence Service, (c) the Security Service and (d) the Cabinet Office; and who formally sanctions such a merger.

  Mr. Freeman
  My Department is consulted by the appropriate regulatory authorities in cases likely to involve
  563
  the interests of the MOD and provides advice on how these would he affected by a proposed merger. The security implications of proposed mergers are considered and other authorities consulted as necessary.

  Biological and Toxic Weapons Conference
  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what proposals Her Majesty's Government intend to submit to the special conference on biological and toxic weapons in Geneva in September; and if he will place any non-confidential papers put to and circulated at the conference in the Library.

  Mr. Soames
  We will be proposing at the special conference that states parties to the biological and toxin weapons convention work to strengthen the convention through the creation of an effective verification regime and, to this end, that the special conference agrees a mandate for a group of experts to draft a verification protocol for the BWC. We will further be proposing that this work be completed in time for the 1996 fourth BWC review conference. Copies of papers from the special conference will be placed in the Library of the House.

  Recruits
  Dr. Lynne Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many new recruits have been taken on by each of the armed forces in the past five years.

  Mr. Soames
  I refer the hon. Member to table 2 of "Tri-Service Personnel Statistics 1-Strengths, Intake and Outflow of UK Regular Forces," a copy of which is available in the Library of the House.

  Redundancies
  Dr. Lynne Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many redundancies there have been in each of the armed forces in the past five years.

  Mr. Soames
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Operation Snowdrop
  Mr. Tom Clarke
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what consideration he has given to the method of aerial delivery of relief supplies known as Operation Snowdrop.

  Mr. Soames
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Land Mines
  Mr. Tom Clarke
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if United Kingdom arms manufacturers continue to possess the capacity for production and development of land mines; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Freeman
  The current edition of the defence manufacturers handbook lists the following companies with mines among their products: British Aerospace Defence, British Aerospace, Royal Ordnance, Hunting Engineering and Plalite.

  Porton Down
  Mr. Cousins
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, pursuant to his answer to the hon. Member for Brent, East (Mr. Livingstone) on 24 June,Official Report, column 372,
  564
  if it is his practice to ensure that service personnel with allergic reactions or histories are identified prior to the offer or administration of counter-CBW medical preparations.

  Mr. Soames
  It is standard medical practice to ensure that vaccines, whether against biological warfare or natural diseases, are withheld if individual recipients display contraindications, such as a history of severe allergic reaction to the vaccines concerned.

  In the case of the nerve agent pretreatment set tablets taken against the threat of chemical attack, no medical evidence has been found, in over 40 years of therapeutic usage, that the active ingredient—pyridostigmine bromide —can cause allergic reactions.

  Naval Ship Contracts
  Mr. Cousins
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will list the naval ship contracts on which claims for price and cost adjustments are still outstanding; and what is the maximum sum of liabilities arising from such price and cost adjustments.

  Mr. Freeman
  All MOD contracts, whether for ship platforms, systems, equipments or weapon systems, provide for price adjustment. Each claim for price adjustment is assessed on its merits and no maximum can be set. Details of claims are commercially confidential to the companies concerned.

  Ballistic Missile Defence System
  Mr. Cousins
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he has let a contract for study of a ballistic missile defence system; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Freeman
  The UK ballistic missile defence pre-feasibility study is the subject of a competitive tendering exercise. Tenders were received on 23 June 1994 from two consortia led by British Aerospace plc and Logica UK Ltd. and these are currently being assessed. It is intended that the contract award will be announced in the autumn.

  Nuclear Test Veterans
  Mr. Wareing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many veterans of Britain's nuclear tests have been contacted by the NRPB in carrying out its investigations into illnesses subsequently contacted by participants in the tests.

  Mr. Soames
  I have nothing further to add to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Mr. Smith) on 26 May,Official Report, column 231.

  Mr. Wareing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what illnesses the National Radiological Protection Board has considered in respect of participants in British nuclear tests; and what plans there are to extend the range.

  Mr. Soames
  The illnesses considered by the NRPB in the compilation of its study are shown on table 6.11 of the report (R.266), a copy of which can be found in the Library of the House.

  Mr. Wareing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many veterans of the British nuclear tests
  565
  have been awarded a war pension in each year since the first case associated with the tests was diagnosed; and how many applications have been rejected.

  Mr. Hague
  I have been asked to reply.

  I will write to the hon. Member shortly.

  Mr. Wareing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what recent representations he has received from the British Nuclear Test Veterans Association; and what has been his response.

  Mr. Soames
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Nuclear Weapons
  Mr. Mullin
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what percentage of defence expenditure was accounted for by nuclear weapons(a) before and (b) after the recent round of defence cuts.

  Mr. Soames'
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Ministerial Visits
  Mrs. Roche
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many overseas visits he and each of his Ministers have made between 1 January and 30 June; during how many he, or each of his Ministers, participated in fund-raising activities for the Conservative party; and if he will name the Ministers and the countries in which these activities took place.

  Mr. Soames
  Between 1 January and 30 June 1994, Ministers in my Department made 27 overseas trips in their official capacity. Fund-raising activities for the Conservative party are not part of our official duties.

  Public Bodies
  Dr. Wright
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will publish a table showing, in 1992–93 prices, the gross public spending for each year to 1990–91 and the projected expenditure for each year to 1995–96 for each executive non-departmental public body sponsored by his Department, as listed in "Public Bodies 1993".

  Mr. Soames
  [holding answer 15 February 19941]: I will write to the hon. Member.

LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL

  European Parliament (Pensions and Life Assurance)
  Mr. Marlow
  To ask the Lord President of the Council what life insurance payments and pension are available to members of the European Parliament that are not available to Members of this House; and how they are financed.

  Mr. Newton
  There are no arrangements or benefits made by the Government for Members of the European Parliament which are not made in parallel for Members of Parliament. There is, however, a scheme of additional voluntary contributions run by a non-profit making organisation set up by Members of the European Parliament, to which the Parliament contributes two thirds of the contributions in respect of those Members who subscribe to it. There is also a limited life assurance scheme run by the European Parliament for its Members 566
  with a maximum benefit of about £12,500 payable on death or on the attainment of 60 years of age, provided that the policy has been in place for at least 10 years.

  Drugs
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Lord President of the Council, if the group studying solutions for the drugs problem is free to recommend decriminalising cannabis.

  Mr. Newton
  The central drugs co-ordination unit's remit is to ensure that departmental policies on drug misuse are planned, developed and implemented within a clear strategic framework and to devise an effective basis for local co-ordination of action against the drugs problem. Individual Government Departments remain responsible for their own policies to tackle drug misuse. My right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary has already made it clear that the Government have no intention of decriminalising or legalising any currently banned drug.

  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Lord President of the Council, when he expects the group in his Department studying drugs to present the report.

  Mr. Newton
  The Government expect to publish in the autumn, a consultative document which will set out a strategic framework for tackling drug misuses in England.

  Early-day Motions
  Mr. Pawsey
  To ask the Lord President of the Council, what plans there are to reform the early-day motion procedure.

  Mr. Newton
  I have no plans to do so. The hon. Member may, however, wish to raise the matter with the Procedure Committee.

  Mr. Pawsey
  To ask the Lord President of the Council, what is the percentage of early-day motions initiated by Opposition Members during the present parliamentary session.

  Mr. Newton
  Hon. Members other than Conservative party members tabled 88.6 per cent. of the early-day motions tabled in the current Session up to and including Wednesday 6 July.

  Number

  Labour

  1,102

  Conservative

  166

  Liberal Democrats

  125

  Plaid Cymru

  34

  Scottish National Party

  18

  Others

  15

  Total

  1,460

  This answer is based on motions only, not amendments, and is based on the records in POLIS.

  Mr. Pawsey
  To ask the Lord President of the Council what is the current average cost of an early-day motion.

  Mr. Newton
  The total costs associated with the tabling of the 1,769 early-day motions in 1993 was £2,290,000 giving an average of £1,295 each.

  Mr. Pawsey
  To ask the Lord President of the Council, what is the current average number of hon. Members who append their signature to early-day motions.
  567
  Mr. Newton
  The average number of signatures appended to early-day motions and amendments to them in the current Session up to and including Wednesday 6 July was 41·6

EDUCATION

  Grant-maintained Schools
  Mr. Byers
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education what is the provisional percentage figure for each local education authority of relevant central spending in financial year 1994–95 in(a) the primary sector and (b) the secondary sector which will form the basis of the financial addition for grant-maintained schools in 1995–96.

  Mr. Robin Squire
  The Department will be consulting later this year on the arrangements for funding GM schools in 1995–96 on the basis of the local management of schools scheme of the relevant authority.

  Mr. Byers
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education what is the planned capital expenditure on grant-maintained schools for the financial years 1994–95, 1995–96 and 1996–97; what was the actual capital expenditure on grant-maintained schools in 1993–94; and if he will give for each year the assured number of grant-maintained schools on which the capital expenditure levels were based.

  Mr. Robin Squire
  Self-governing schools' capital outturn expenditure for 1993–94 was £87,348,570. Planned capital expenditure on self-governing schools for the financial years 199495, 1995–96 and 1996–97 is as follows:

  £ million

  1994–95

  1995–96

  1996–97

  115

  251

  358

  These figures are published in the Department's annual report, a copy of which is available in the Library, They reflect the additional responsibilities of GM schools and our commitment to setting them up on a sound basis. Our expenditure plans provide for the growth of the GM sector to be maintained.

  Estimated numbers of pupils in maintained primary and secondary schools in September 1994 (figures in brackets include schools approved or approved in principle for GM status by 14 July 1994)

  LEA Area

  LEA Primary

  CM Primary

  LEA Secondary

  GM Secondary

  Corporation of London

  214

  0

  0

  0

  Camden

  10,610

  0

  8,139

  2,340

  Greenwich

  20,664

  239

  13,956

  0

  Hackney

  16,590

  87

  7,384

  0

  Hammersmith

  9,025

  0

  4,747

  1,229

  Islington

  14,966

  0

  7,037

  0

  Kensington and Chelsea

  5,762

  530

  2,574

  629

  Lambeth

  17,716 (17,266)

  1,250 (1,700)

  2,987

  3,363

  Lewisham

  20,073

  361

  10,515

  0

  Southwark

  19,917

  1,265

  6,356

  2,765

  Tower Hamlets

  20,717

  0

  10,675

  907

  Wandsworth

  16,699

  515

  2,420

  6,487

  Westminster

  9,122

  0

  7,358

  0

  Barking

  15,727

  0

  9,493

  0

  Barnet

  23,014

  776

  8,580

  9,836

  Bexley

  17,953

  643

  10,810

  3,581

  Brent

  21,166

  1,002

  3,010

  9,377

  Bromley

  19,298 (18,362)

  1,151 (2,087)

  5,346

  11,342

  Croydon

  25,383 (24,956)

  836 (1,263)

  8,664 (6,967)

  5,897 (7,594)

  568
  Mr. Byers
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education, pursuant to his answer of 1 July,Official Report, column 752, if he will identify those schools which provided information on grant-maintained status which was the subject of complaints to his Department.

  Mr. Robin Squire
  The Department has received a total of 16 complaints since January 1993 about the accuracy of information disseminated by governing bodies prior to their schools' ballots on the question of grant-maintained status. The schools concerned are as follows:

  Hanson School, Bradford

  Peel Brow County Primary School, Bury

  Soham Village College, Cambridgeshire

  Addey and Stanhope School, Lewisham

  Winterton Comprehensive School, Humberside

  West Mersea County Primary School, Essex

  St. Peter's CE Primary School, Lancashire

  Tudor Grange School, Solihull

  Cardinal Newman School, Bedfordshire

  Anglesey Primary School, Staffordshire

  Chatham House School, Kent

  Christ Church Middle School, Staffordshire

  Greenway School, West Sussex

  Padstow School, Nottinghamshire

  Prospect School, Berkshire

  King David Primary School, Liverpool

  All complaints are considered carefully and, where appropriate, follow-up action is taken by the Department.

  Mr. Byers
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he will give the latest figures for each local education authority and the estimated figures in September 1994 of the number of pupils in(a) local education authority maintained and (b) grant-maintained schools in (i) the primary and (ii) the secondary schools sector; and if he will give the national totals in each sector.

  Mr. Robin Squire
  Estimates of pupil numbers related to the 930 primary and secondary schools which are currently grant-maintained are shown in the table. These estimates are derived from the Department's January 1993 schools census. The table also shows estimates of pupil numbers including 57 schools which by 20 July had been approved or approved in principle for grant-maintained status from 1 September. Applications for grant maintained status from 43 more schools are currently being considered by my right hon. Friend.
  569

  LEA Area

  LEA Primary

  GM Primary

  LEA Secondary

  GM Secondary

  Ealing

  26,313

  1,217

  6,093

  4,905

  Enfield

  23,167

  149

  11,814

  5,576

  Haringey

  19,127

  0

  9,060

  0

  Harrow

  19,109

  0

  7,482

  483

  Havering

  19,624

  0

  11,012

  3,813

  Hillingdon

  17,027

  2,602

  2,248

  11,467

  Hounslow

  19,339

  0

  11,902

  2,108

  Kingston upon Thames

  10,215

  191

  4,748

  2,859

  Merton

  15,224

  0

  7,167

  0

  Newham

  25,235

  0

  13,019

  556

  Redbridge

  19,045

  0

  13,839

  1,113

  Richmond upon Thames

  10,785

  0

  7,447

  0

  Sutton

  12,033

  799

  4,474

  6,591

  Waltham Forest

  19,705

  0

  9,134

  1,915

  Birmingham

  105,289

  1,717

  48,934

  14,621

  Coventry

  29,692

  0

  18,677

  0

  Dudley

  27,570

  381

  13,076

  4,458

  Sandwell

  31,937

  0

  17,346 (16,396)

  658 (1,608)

  Solihull

  19,215

  454

  13,080

  0

  Walsall

  27,590

  561

  13,635 (12,377)

  5,557 (6,815)

  Wolverhampton

  25,393

  0

  13,427

  2,348

  Knowsley

  18,647

  0

  8,241

  719

  Liverpool

  50,716

  0

  27,423

  2,260

  St. Helens

  17,584

  0

  11,568

  0

  Sefton

  27,066

  0

  18,583

  0

  Wirral

  31,344

  0

  18,690

  2,031

  Bolton

  26,811

  364

  13,878

  2,755

  Bury

  16,664

  223

  9,967

  0

  Manchester

  46,948

  0

  21,376

  0

  Oldham

  24,542

  0

  15,930

  0

  Rochdale

  20,131 (19,892)

  1,115 (1,354)

  11,681

  1,053

  Salford

  22,896

  0

  11,011

  413

  Stockport

  25,180

  0

  14,819

  0

  Tameside

  22,934

  0

  10,517

  2,332

  Trafford

  20,091

  0

  8,490

  2,892

  Wigan

  29,727

  0

  19,120

  0

  Barnsley

  21,460

  0

  12,362

  0

  Doncaster

  29,357

  0

  21,310

  0

  Rotherham

  24,694

  0

  17,616

  0

  Sheffield

  42,764 (42,434)

  943 (1,273)

  24,802

  1,893

  Bradford

  39,996 (39,103)

  539 (1,432)

  40,586

  5,080

  Calderdale

  19,059

  660

  6,795

  6,337

  Kirklees

  35,978

  0

  23,730

  1,266

  Leeds

  65,098

  51

  43,268

  1,138

  Wakefield

  29,434

  0

  20,403

  0

  Gateshead

  18,353

  0

  11,612

  0

  Newcastle upon Tyne

  22,545

  0

  16,598

  0

  North Tyneside

  16,346

  0

  14,175

  212

  South Tyneside

  15,586

  0

  9,333

  0

  Sunderland

  29,889

  0

  18,971

  0

  Isle of Wight

  174

  0

  10,294

  0

  Avon

  79,059

  0

  52,377

  1,569

  Bedfordshire

  41,430

  629

  32,245

  8,568

  Berkshire

  58,242

  2,242

  38,909

  7,389

  Buckinghamshire

  59,320 (58,976)

  2,126

  26,167 (2,470)

  9,844

  Cambridgeshire

  56,515

  1,911

  25,138

  15,109

  Cheshire

  88,276

  418

  60,415

  2,395

  Cleveland

  65,058

  0

  35,650

  0

  Cornwall

  40,128

  0

  28,965

  0

  Cumbria

  40,211

  2,399

  20,085

  10,617

  Derbyshire

  82,261 (82,179)

  1,671 (1,753)

  41,786

  15,275

  Devon

  79,139

  285

  52,908

  4,571

  Dorset

  44,367

  415

  30,808

  9,537

  Durham

  55,779

  0

  37,068

  0

  East Sussex

  50,300

  0

  33,201

  0

  Essex

  102,914

  18,774

  28,269

  66,322

  Gloucestershire

  40,067 (39,025)

  2,820 (3,862)

  11,008 (10,417)

  21,584 (22,175)

  Hampshire

  125,895

  3,911

  60,436

  15,780

  Hereford and Worcester

  47,895

  0

  43,288

  3,558

  Hertfordshire

  81,073 (80,637)

  1,564 (2,000)

  46,498 (44,968)

  20,565 (22,095)

  Humberside

  84,091 (84,014)

  257(334)

  55,202

  0

  Isles of Scilly

  7,232

  0

  108

  0

  Kent

  121,041 (119,745)

  4,877 (6,173)

  49,626 (47,950)

  51,187 (52,863)

  Lancashire

  128,001 (127,770)

  578 (809)

  75,559

  6,593

  Leicestershire

  79,549

  0

  55,587

  3,222

  Lincolnshire

  42,559 (41,907)

  6,219 (6,871)

  20,628 (20,004)

  16,323 (16,947)

  Norfolk

  59,402 (59,275)

  2,623 (2,750)

  31,573

  8,608

  570 571

  LEA Area

  LEA Primary

  GM Primary

  LEA Secondary

  GM Secondary

  North Yorkshire

  58,165

  0

  43,107

  0

  Northamptonshire

  47,113

  3,072

  35,159

  9,197

  Northumberland

  21,566

  0

  28,470

  632

  Nottinghamshire

  91,370

  0

  60,776

  1,831

  Oxfordshire

  39,805

  81

  34,189

  0

  Shropshire

  35,103

  307

  20,383

  4,324

  Somerset

  34,969

  374

  27,200 (27,017)

  398 (581)

  Staffordshire

  92,292 (92,244)

  49 (97)

  64,046

  4,298

  Suffolk

  43,420

  0

  47,215

  0

  Surrey

  72,926 (72,165)

  3,546 (4,307)

  28,962

  9,915

  Warwickshire

  45,715

  0

  19,988

  4,669

  West Sussex

  51,813 (51,420)

  0 (393)

  39,154

  0

  Wiltshire

  44,148 (43,638)

  2,915 (3,425)

  20,480 (20,197)

  13,216 (13,499)

  Total

  4,077,888 4,068,614

  84,684 93,958

  2,366,447 2,357,655

  504,258 513,050

  Note: The figures for GM Primary schools exclude part-time pupils.

  Mrs. Ann Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he will list the grant-maintained schools which have applied for a change in the admissions policy giving in each case(a) the date of application, (b) the nature of the change and (c) his decision.

  Mr. Robin Squire
  The information requested will take some time to collate. I shall write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Mr. Don Foster
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many parents have(a) voted for grant-maintained status and (b) against grant-maintained status; and how many were eligible to vote in GM ballots since 1 January.

  Mr. Robin Squire
  A total of 107,914 parents have been eligible to vote in the 162 ballots on grant-maintained status that have been held by primary and secondary schools in England since 1 January. Of these 34,364 voted in favour of grant-maintained status, and 36,370 voted against. Fifty-five per cent. of the ballots produced yes votes.

  Mrs. Ann Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education, pursuant to his answer of 25 January,Official Report, columns 174–75, what further applications have now been received from grant-maintained schools for capital grant for the financial year 1994–95; what was the level of grant approved in each case; and what amount remains set aside awaiting allocation in the current financial year.

  Date of Publication

  Nature of Change

  To add Sixth Form

  Wiltshire

  St. Augustines RC GM Comp School

  25 March 1994

  11–16 to 11–18

  Birmingham

  Ninestiles GM School

  4 April 1994

  11–16 to 11–18

  Rochdale

  Wardle High School

  27 April 1994

  11–16 to 11–18

  Dudley

  Ellowes Hall GM School

  14 May 1994

  11–16 to 11–18

  Lambeth

  La Karaite RC Girls GM School

  10 June 1994

  11–16 to 11–18

  Surrey

  Heathside School

  16 June 1994

  11–16 to 11–18

  Norfolk

  Cromer GM High School

  24 June 1994

  11–16 to 11–18

  Cambridgeshire

  The Queens School, Wisbech

  8 July 1994

  11–16 to 11–18

  To add Nursery

  Buckinghamshire

  Brookmead GM School

  31 March 1994

  5–12 to 3–12

  Surrey

  The Manor School

  9 May 1994

  4–8 to 3–8

  Lincolnshire

  Washingborough GM School

  23 May 1994

  4–11 to 3–11

  Cumbria

  St. Pauls CE GM Junior School

  25 May 1994

  7–11 to 3–111

  572
  Mr. Robin Squire
  We announced the second tranche of GM capital allocations for 1994–95 on 31 March 1994. A copy of DFE press notice 69/94 listing the allocations have been placed in the Library. Allocations for capital grant received from 1 April onwards are the responsibility of the Funding Agency for Schools. I have asked the chairman of the funding agency to write to the hon. Member.

  Mr. Byers
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education what balances were held by each grant-maintained school at the end of the 1993–94 financial year.

  Mr. Robin Squire
  This matter is now the responsibil-ity of the Funding Agency for Schools. I have asked the chairman of the funding agency to write to the hon. Member.

  Mrs. Ann Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education, pursuant to his answer of 24 March,Official Report, column 400, if he will list the grant-maintained schools which have since that date published proposals to make a significant change in the character of the school giving in each case (a) the date of publication, (b) the nature of the proposed change and (c) his decision.

  Mr. Robin Squire
  The table lists proposals for a significant change of character published by grant maintained schools since 24 March. None of these have been decided. Following publication of proposals, there is a period of two months during which objections may be made to my right hon. Friend.
  573

  Date of Publication

  Nature of Change

  Other change of age range

  Berkshire

  Herschel GM Grammar School

  12 May 1994

  12–18 to 11–18

  Berkshire

  Langley GM Grammar School

  12 May 1994

  12–18 to 11–18

  Berkshire

  Slough GM Grammar School

  12 May 1994

  12–18 to 11–18

  Buckinghamshire

  Beaconsfield High School

  10 June 1994

  12–18 to 11–18

  Hammersmith and Fulham

  London Oratory School

  20 May 1994

  11–18 to 7–182

  To introduce selection in whole or part

  Lambeth

  Dunraven GM School

  25 March 1994

  50 per cent. selection by ability

  Lambeth

  Archbishop Tenison GM School

  17 June 1994

  100 per cent selection by ability

  1 Also for extension of primary age range to cover 5 and 6 years olds.

  2 Also for selection of 20 boys at 7+ each year on musical and general ability.

  Special Schools (Portsmouth)
  Mr. Don Foster
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education when he expects to make a decision on the future of Milton Ford special school, Portsmouth.

  Mr. Forth
  Hampshire local education authority was notified on 20 July of my right hon. Friend's qualified approval of its proposals involving the discontinuance of Milton Ford special school. The authority may implement the proposals, but final approval is subject to the agreement, approval and completion of building work.

  Mr. Don Foster
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education when he expects to make a decision on the future of Waterside special school, Portsmouth.

  Mr. Forth
  Hampshire local education authority was notified on 20 July of my right hon. Friend's qualified approval of its statutory proposals involving the redesignation of Waterside special school for secondary age pupils with emotional and behavioural difficulties. The authority may implement the proposals but final approval is subject to the agreement, approval and completion of building work.

  16 and 17-year-olds
  Mr. Tony Lloyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many 16 and 17-year-olds were in full-time education or training in each quarter since January 1988.

  Mr. Boswell
  Quarterly counts of numbers in schools and further education colleges are not available. The full-time numbers aged 16 and 17 in England in each academic year are given in the table. The figures include some young people who were in college as part of their youth training.

  Thousands

  Academic year

  Pupils and students aged

  16

  17

  1987–88

  349·9

  236·8

  1988–89

  348·7

  256·2

  1989–90

  349·2

  265·9

  1990–91

  357·1

  273·1

  1991–92

  383·7

  294·7

  1992–94

  387·5

  311·8

  1993–94

  389·6

  322·1

  Source: Annual Schools Census and the Further Education Statistical Record.

  Franchise Courses
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many secondary schools are operating courses on a franchise basis from further education colleges.

  Mr. Boswell
  It is for individual colleges to decide on the best way of delivering provision to respond to the needs of their local communities. Information about the extent that this may be done through franchise arrangements is not collected centrally.

  Work Experience
  Mr. Don Foster
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education what plans he has(a) to ensure the effective provision of work experience in schools and (b) to remove the obligation from schools to inspect work experience placements for health and safety reasons; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Forth
  As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment announced on 24 May at column 198 the Government are asking training and enterprise councils and their partners to ensure that all pupils in their last year of compulsory education can have at least one week's work experience and will make available an additional £23 million over three years to 1997–98 to support this. There is no statutory requirement on schools to inspect work experience placements. The Department for Education recommends that such visits should take place to enable LEAs and schools to meet their common law duty to look after the pupils in their care, and LEAs to meet their duty under the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 to ensure that they do not expose pupils to risks to their health and safety.

  Sixth Form Colleges (South Hams and Torbay)
  Mr. Steen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education when he will announce which schools in South Hams and Torbay will become sixth form colleges; and if he will make a statement as to progress.

  Mr. Robin Squire
  Devon LEA published proposals on 28 January 1994 to make a significant change of character to Brixham community college, Paignton community college, Dartmouth community college and Torquay Audley Park school to change the age range from 11–16 to 11–18. The governing body of Cuthbert Mayne school published similar proposals on the same day. A decision on
  575
  the proposals will be made as soon as possible, consistent with a full and careful consideration of the educational issues involved.

  Special Purpose Grant (Premises)
  Mrs. Ann Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education what applications have been received for special purpose grant (premises) for 1994–95; and what grant has been agreed in each case.

  Mr. Robin Squire
  These matters are now the responsibility of the Funding Agency for Schools. I have asked the chairman of the funding agency to write to the hon. Member.

  Funding Agency for Schools
  Mr. Byers
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education what is the expected cost of running the meetings of the Funding Agency for Schools board and its committees and sub-committees in 1994–95; what is the sum payable to a board member attending a meeting; and how many board meetings, committees and sub-committees are likely to be held in 1994–95.

  Mr. Robin Squire
  Arrangements for the funding agency's internal meetings are a matter for the agency itself. Board members, apart from the chairman who receives an annual fee, are entitled to claim a fee of £155 for days on which they are transacting agency business. Members may also claim travel and subsistence expenses incurred on those days.

  Mr. Byers
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education what are the budgeted running costs of the Funding Agency for Schools in 1994–95; what amounts are provided for(a) premises, (b) staffing, (c) travel, (d) entertaining and hospitality and (e) general; and what are the projected running costs in 1995–96 and 1996–97.

  Mr. Robin Squire
  The Government's main estimates provide for up to £12 million for the funding agency's running costs in 1994–95. Actual outturn of costs will depend on a number of factors, including growth in the number of grant-maintained schools. The detailed split of the total between different budget heads is a matter for the funding agency. Provision for future years will be decided each year as part of the annual public expenditure survey round.

  Construction Courses
  Mr. Tony Lloyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education what are his estimates of the number of full-time places in construction courses in further education in each academic year for the last 10 years.

  Mr. Boswell
  The number of places which colleges provide for particular courses is not centrally recorded. Students enrolled on full-time courses in construction, which are defined in standard FE statistics as courses in building, building services and site management, for each of the four years 1989–90 to 1992–93 are as listed in the table. In the academic year 1988–989 the subject groupings and definitions used by the Department were changed. Information on a comparable basis cannot therefore be provided for earlier years.
  576

  Number of full-time enrolments at further education level on construction courses for the four years from 1989–90 to 1992–93

  Academic year

  Number of enrolments

  1989–90

  34,604

  1990–91

  30,514

  1991–92

  27,369

  1992–93

  25,097

  Teacher Assistants
  Mr. Don Foster
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he will list those institutions that have submitted bids for the specialist teacher assistants' pilot scheme.

  Mr. Robin Squire
  My right hon. Friend received 140 bids, from the following institutions:Higher Education

  1. Bath College of Higher Education

  2. Bedford College of Higher Education

  3. Bishop Grosseteste College of Lincoln

  4. Bretton Hall College of the University of Leeds

  5. University of Brighton

  6. Charlotte Mason College

  7. Cheltenham and Gloucester College of Higher Education

  8. Chester College

  9. University of Durham

  10. University of Exeter

  11. Edge Hill University College

  12. University of Greenwich

  13. University of Hertfordshire

  14. Homerton College

  15. University of Huddersfield

  16. University of Hull

  17. University of Humberside

  18. University of London Institute of Education

  19. Jews College

  20. Kingston University

  21. Liverpool Institute of Higher Education

  22. Liverpool John Moores University

  23. University of Leeds

  24. University of Leicester

  25. University of East London

  26. LSU College

  27. University of Luton

  28. Manchester Metropolitan University

  29. Middlesex University

  30.University of Newcastle

  31. New College Durham

  32. University of Northumbria at Newcastle

  33. University of North London

  34. North Riding College

  35. Nottingham Trent University

  36. Open University

  37. Oxford Brookes University

  38. University of Plymouth

  39. Roehampton Institute

  40. St. Martin's College Lancaster

  41. College of St. Mark and St. John

  42. University of Sunderland

  43. Westminster College

  44. West Sussex Institute of Higher Education

  45. University of Wolverhampton

  46. Worcester College of Higher Education

  Further Education

  47. Amersham and Wycombe College

  48. Basingstoke College of Technology

  49. South Birmingham College

  50. Blackpool and the Fylde College

  51. Bourneville College of Further Education

  52. Bradford and Ilkley Community College

  53. Bradford and Ilkley Community College cluster

  54. Bridgewater College

  55. Chiltern Nursery Training College

  577

  56. Clarendon College

  57. Doncaster College

  58. Dunstable College

  59. East Berkshire College

  60. East Birmingham College

  61. Eastbourne College of Arts and Technology

  62. Eastleigh College

  63. Evesham College

  64. Farnham College

  65. Filton College

  66. Guildford College

  67. Halesowen College

  68. Hammersmith and West London College

  69. Harrogate College of Arts and Technology

  70. Havering College of Further Education

  71. owestoft College

  72. Mackworth College

  73. Manchester College of Arts and Technology

  74. Mid Kent College

  75. Newcastle College

  76. Norfolk College

  77. Norland College

  78. Northampton College

  79. Norwich City College

  80. Oldham FE College

  81. Portsmouth College

  82. Rother Valley College

  83. Rotherham College of Arts and Technology

  84. Shrewsbury College

  85. Skelmersdale College

  86. Solihull College

  87. South Devon College

  88. South East Essex COAT

  89. South Kent College

  90. Southport College

  91. Southwark College

  92. Stockport College

  93. Stoke on Trent College

  94. Strode College

  95. Suffolk College

  96. Totton College

  97. East Warwickshire College Rugby

  98. West Cheshire College

  99. West Kent College

  100. Worcester Sixth Form College

  101. York College

  Other interested bodies

  102. The Audrey Wisbey Foundation

  103. I CAN

  104. Bradford Metropolitan Council

  105. Birmingham City Council

  106. Buckinghamshire County Council

  107. Camden Education Department

  108. City and Guilds of London Institute

  109. Council For Awards in Children's Care and Education

  110. Devon County Council

  111. Doncaster Metropolitan Borough

  112. Dorset County Council

  113. Dudley Local Education Authority

  114. Dyslexia Centre

  115. Ealing Education Centre

  116. Hackney Borough of Education and Leisure

  117. Hampshire County Council

  118. Harrow Education Services

  119. Hertfordshire County Council

  120. Hillingdon London Borough

  121. John Bald (Literacy and Language Specialist)

  122. Leeds Education

  123. Manchester City Council

  124. Merton Education and Leisure

  125. Norfolk County Council INSET Centre

  126. Northamptonshire County Council

  127. Open School

  128. Oxfordshire County Council

  129. RSA

  130. RNIB

  131. Start Educational Services Ltd

  132. Sheffield City Council

  133. Shropshire County Council

  578

  134. Somerset Education Service

  135. South East Surrey Dyslexia Association

  136. St. Pius Xth Primary School

  137. Tower Hamlets

  138. Urban Learning Foundation

  139. Wiltshire County Council

  140. Borough of Wirral

  Nursery Education
  Mr. Don Foster
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he will list those local education authorities which did not spend up to their standard spending assessment for nursery education in 1993–94; and by how much.

  Mr. Robin Squire
  For the purpose of determining standard spending assessments, the education component of standard spending, net of specific grants, is divided into five sub-blocks—under-fives, primary, secondary, 16-plus, and other education. There is no standard spending assessment specifically for nursery education as the under-fives sub-block notionally includes spending on under-fives in primary schools as well as pupils in nursery schools and in nursery classes. Local education authority spending figures are not available in a form comparable to the five sub-blocks.

  Mr. Don Foster
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he will list the total amount of money spent on three and four-year-olds by each local education authority in 1992–93 and 1993–94 and the total increase or decrease in each local education authority.

  Mr. Robin Squire
  This information is not collected centrally.

  Grant for Education Support and Training
  Mr. Byers
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education what are the national totals under each heading of the GEST programme in 1994–95; and what are the amounts under each heading for each local education authority.

  Mr. Robin Squire
  This information will take some time to collate. I will write to the hon. Member.

  Assessment and Testing
  Mrs. Ann Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education which schools are being invited to comment on his proposals for assessment and testing outlined in the letter from the Department of Further Education to selected schools on 1 July 1994.

  Mr. Robin Squire
  All schools are welcome to comment on my right hon. Friend's proposals for the testing and assessment arrangements of seven, 11 and 14-year-olds next year, which he announced on 1 July. A random sample of 484 maintained schools were specifically invited to do so.

  Mrs. Ann Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education what is the closing date for responses to the proposals on assessment and testing sent to selected schools on 1 July.

  Mr. Robin Squire
  The closing date for all responses, from schools and other interested bodies, is 27 July.

  Mrs. Ann Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education what are his reasons for proposing to end the mandatory external audit of teachers' own assessment of classroom work associated with key stage testing.
  579
  Mr. Robin Squire
  My right hon. Friend has proposed the end of the mandatory external audit of teachers' own assessments of the classroom work of seven-year-olds in response to concerns expressed by teachers about the workload involved. Existing co-operative arrangements and the proposed continuing mandatory external audit of teachers' marking of national curriculum tests will provide teachers with a cross-check of their own assessments of their pupils' work.

  School Funding
  Mrs. Ann Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education what action he intends to take to address the disparity of funding between primary and secondary schools.

  Mr. Robin Squire
  My right hon. Friend will be studying carefully the recommendations in the Education Select Committee's report, "The disparity in funding between primary and secondary schools", published on 13 July 1994. The Government will make a formal response to the Committee in due course. Meanwhile, I note that the Committee's report addresses local authorities among others. Under present arrangements, they have wide discretion to decide the relative levels of funding of their primary and secondary schools.

  Ministerial Visits
  Mrs. Roche
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many overseas visits he and each of his Ministers have made between 1 January and 30 June; during how many he, or each of his Ministers, participated in fundraising activities for the Conservative party; and if he will name the Ministers and the countries in which these activities took place.

  Mr. Forth
  Between 1 January and 30 June 1994, Ministers in the Department made eight overseas visits in their official capacity. Fundraising activities for the Conservative party are not part of our official duties.

  Local Management of Schools
  Mr. Alton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education what safeguards there are in the system in relation to local management of schools and formula funding to ensure that schools do not, by accident or design, claim for children they do not have.

  Mr. Forth
  It is for each local education authority to determine its own procedures for verifying the accuracy of the pupil numbers and other data to be used in determining its schools' LMS budget shares.

WALES

  Departmental Costs
  Mr. David Shaw
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the achievements of(a) his policies and (b) his Department in helping small businesses over the last 12 months as against the previous 12 months; if he will publish the performance indicators by which his Department monitors those achievments and the statistical results of such monitoring; and if he will set out his targets to help small businesses in the next year.

  Mr. Redwood
  The Government recognise the crucial 580
  role played by small firms in the Welsh economy. We have continued to help small businesses by keeping inflation and interest rates low and by reducing legislative and administrative burdens.

  My Department works with local authorities, training and enterprise councils, the development agencies and local enterprise agencies in providing a range of services for small businesses in Wales. I recently published a prospectus inviting bids for improving those services. through increased collaboration both between these organisations and with the private sector.

  Specific measures promoted by my Department are as follows:
  Enterprise promotion
  During 1993–94, TECs assisted over 9,000 owner-managers, provided 10,438 counselling sessions and, in respect of a range of information services, received nearly 55,000 inquiries. During 1992–93, TECs provided 13,903 counselling sessions and received 42,483 inquiries. They will continue to provide these services in response to demand in 1994–95.
  In 1993–94, TECs helped 2,200 people start their own businesses, compared to 2,677 in 1992–93. They have a target. of 2,300 in 1994–95. In addition, over 5,000 small firms are to receive business enterprise training or consulting support with a further 1,200 targeted to participate in management development.
  Grant support
  The Welsh Office continues to provide grant support for small firms, having regard to the level of demand in each year. During the year ending 30 June 1994, 128 firms employing under 200 accepted offers of Regional Selective Assistance totalling £16 730 million. The grants were forecast to help create or safeguard, 3,813 jobs and generate £98 million private sector investment. In the previous year, 120 firms accepted offers totalling £22 463 million and forecast to create or safeguard 3,377 jobs and help generate £143 million private sector investment.
  Also in the year ending 30 June 1994, 127 small firms (i.e. those with fewer than 25 employees for investment grant and fewer than 50 for innovation grant) accepted offers of Regional Enterprise Grant totalling £1 847 million. The grants were forecast to help generate £6 88 million private sector investment. In the previous year, 163 firms accepted offers totalling £2 469 million, with forecast private sector investment totalling £8 75 million.
  My Department is also continuing with an active programme under the Small Firms Merit Award for Research and Technology (SMART). In the previous two years, small firms from Wales have done well, gaining 16 and 17 awards respectively—approximately 9 per cent. of the United Kingdom total. Under the Support for Products under Research Scheme (SPUR), grant support for small firms in Wales rose from £0 96 million in 1992–93 to £1 91 million in 1993–94, a percentage increase of 26 per cent.
  Deregulation
  The Welsh Office is continuing to contribute actively to the Government's drive to reduce the burden of regulations on business. A consultation exercise was carried out with Welsh business interests in 1993: this identified no Wales-only legislation as placing a burden on business. During 1994, all Welsh Office subordinate legislation is being reviewed.

  Inward Investment
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list for each district and county council area and for Wales as a whole for each of the last five available years, the number of industrial projects involving inward investment from outside the United Kingdom, the estimated number of new jobs resulting from these projects, the associated total capital expenditure involved, the associated public capital expenditure involved and the amount in column 5 expressed as a percentage of column 4.
  581
  Mr. Redwood
  A summary of foreign-owned inward investment projects recorded over the last five financial years together with forecast new employment and capital investment has been placed in the Library of the House. The figures represent companies projections at the time of the decision to invest and they do not take account of any subsequent changes.

  The amount of public capital expenditure involved is not readily available and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Welsh Consumer Council
  Mr. Llwyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what procedures are in place to ensure that the budget and means of the Welsh Consumer Council are properly agreed and controlled so that the Council is at no time able to exceed agreed spending limits or act without due authority; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Redwood
  The Welsh Consumer Council's budget is set at a level agreed between the National Consumer Council and the Scottish and Welsh Consumer Councils from the grant-in-aid the NCC receives from the Department of Trade and Industry. The Welsh Consumer Council has established procedures for controlling and monitoring its own expenditure within the agreed limit, although the NCC is responsible, under the terms of the grant-in-aid conditions, for ensuring expenditure is properly authorised and that expenditure is contained within the agreed allocation.

  Welsh Development Agency
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list those grant schemes operated by the Welsh Development Agency which have been suspended or terminated on legal advice during the past quarter; on what date the legal advice was received; on what date the letter of instruction to terminate the grant schemes was sent to the agency; if he will place a copy of the independent legal advice in the Library; what is his estimate of the budgetary implications; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Redwood
  On 8 June my Department instructed the WDA to avoid further contractual commitments on the mid-Wales development grant scheme, DRIVE, rural conversion grant and the community enterprise pro-gramme. On 21 June my Department extended this instruction to small business loans, subsidised rural loan schemes, valleys enterprise loans schemes, valleys small loans schemes and the technology growth fund. As I explained to the House, I do not wish powers to be used which are subject to any legal uncertainty. I do wish to strengthen local authorities' involvement in these areas.

  The Comptroller and Auditor General has certified the accounts of the WDA without qualification.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (1) what proposals he has to clarify the legal position concerning the grant-in-aid provided by his Department to the Welsh Development Agency for the purposes of the rural conversion grant, the DRIVE scheme, the technology growth fund, the rural loans, valleys loans and the small loans scheme; and what consultations he has had with Welsh local authority associations in relation to powers to give loans and grants to small firms and the provisioning of(a) basic and (b) supplementary credit approval for this purpose;
  582
  (2) what proposals he has had to recommence payments of all the Welsh Development Agency and mid-Wales development loans and grants schemes to small and medium-sized firms suspended on 8 July.

  Mr. Redwood
  As I made clear in my statement to the House on 7 July,Official Report, columns 463–64, I intend that in future grant schemes for small businesses should be delivered by the local authorities. Officials are consulting with the Welsh local authority associations.

  Arrangements for the figure of loans to small businesses are under consideration.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what consultations he has had with the chairman of the Welsh Development Agency in relation to the irregular use of grant-in-aid for(a) rural conversion grant, (b) the DRIVE scheme, (c) the technology growth fund, (d) rural loans, (e) valleys loans and (f) the small loans scheme; what expenditure under the above headings has been qualified in the 1993–94 accounts of (i) the agency and (ii) Development Board for Rural Wales; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Redwood
  I meet regularly with the chairman of the Welsh Development Agency to discuss a range of issues.

  Neither the agency's accounts nor those of the Development Board for Rural Wales have been qualified.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received from the Welsh Development Agency concerning the issuing of a press release by the agency explaining the qualifications to its accounts for 1993–94 arising from legal dishonesty over the rural conversion grant, DRIVE, technology growth fund, rural loans, valleys loans and small loans scheme.

  Mr. Redwood
  The Comptroller and Auditor General has certified the agency's accounts without qualification.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will specify the guidelines applying to the Welsh Development Agency's urban regeneration activities in(a) 1991, (b) 1992 and (c) 1993 as regards consents required from his Department for any proposed land acquisition by the agency for such purpose; what accelerated procedure was available for such purposes; on how many occasions such (i) ordinary and (ii) accelerated consent was sought from his Department in each of those three years; if he will specify the local authority area concerned; and what was the average length of time taken by his Department to approve any such applications.

  Mr. Redwood
  Proposed land acquisitions by the Welsh Development Agency in respect of its urban development programme and requiring consent, are dealt with under urban development guidelines which were introduced in April 1992. Prior to that, all land acquisitions were handled by reference to the site development and factory building guidelines introduced in 1980. Approvals are not subject to a pre-determined timetable and proposals are dealt with as appropriate.

  Approvals for proposed acquisitions are as follows:

  Local authority area

  Number

  Year(s)

  Merthyr Tydfil

  2

  1991–92 and 1993–94

  Cynon Valley

  1

  1991–92

  Preseli-Pembrokeshire

  1

  1991–92

  583

  Local authority area

  Number

  Year(s)

  Llanelli

  1

  1993–94

  Ynys Mon

  2

  1993–94

  Rhondda

  1

  1993–94

  Non-departmental Public Bodies
  Mr. Ron Davies
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales which non-departmental public bodies sponsored by his Department are required to lay their annual report before Parliament; which publish an annual report without a requirement to do so; and how many of the reports in either category have been deposited in the Library.

  Mr. Redwood
  The information is as follows:Required to lay annual report before Parliament
  Cardiff Bay Development Corporation; Countryside Council for Wales; Development Board for Rural Wales; Housing for Wales; Land Authority for Wales; Wales Tourist Board; Welsh Development Agency; Welsh Language Board; Welsh National Board for Nursing, Midwifery and Health Visiting.
  Publish an annual report without requirement
  National Library of Wales; National Museum of Wales; Wales Youth Agency; Further and Higher Education Funding Councils (a); Arts Council of Wales (b); Curriculum and Assessment Authority for Wales.

  All these reports are placed in the Library of the House, with the exception of (a) first annual reports will not be published until later this year; and (b) first annual reports will not be published until next year.

  In addition, the Sports Council for Wales and the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments in Wales are required to publish an annual report. I lay the former's before Parliament; copies of the Royal Commission's annual reports will be placed in the Library of the House shortly.

  Dentists
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will give the number of(a) community dentists and (b) family health services authority salaried dentists employed as at 1 April for each of the past five years.

  Mr. Redwood
  Information relating to community dental staff is collected annually as at 30 September and is given in the table:

  There were three FHSA salaried dentists in post at 1 April 1994. No salaried dentists were appointed until after 1 April 1993. One further dentist was appointed after 1 April 1994.

  Community Dental Practitioners1

  Number

  1989

  104

  1990

  106

  1991

  103

  1992

  100

  1993

  87

  1 Whole-time equivalents excluding locum staff.

  Agricultural Wages Order
  Dr. Strang
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is his latest estimate of the number of persons whose pay and conditions are covered by the Agricultural Wages Order 1994 for each county in Wales and for Wales as a whole.
  584
  Mr. Redwood
  Based on the June 1993 agricultural and horticultural census, it is estimated that the number of workers—excluding those on minor holdings—covered by the Agricultural Wages Order was 12,714 as at June 1993. Estimates by county are given in the table.

  Numbers

  Clwyd

  1,906

  Dyfed

  4,320

  Gwent

  990

  Gwynedd

  1,588

  Mid Glamorgan

  473

  Powys

  2,543

  South Glamorgan

  447

  West Glamorgan

  447

  Development Board for Rural Wales
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales, pursuant to his answer of 7 July,Official Report, column 310, on what date he sent the letter to the Development Board for Rural Wales instructing the board to make no further payments of mid-Wales development grants, rural buildings conversion grants, DRIVE grants and commun-ity enterprise projects.

  Mr. Redwood
  My Department wrote to the development board on 8 June 1994, concerning relevant schemes.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales, pursuant to his answer of 7 July,Official Report, column 310, what is his latest estimate of the date of completion of consultation with local authorities and their associations concerning the powers to be transferred from the Development Board for Rural Wales to them at (a) borough and (b) county level.

  Mr. Redwood
  It is my intention for the consultation with the local authority associations to be completed as soon as possible.

  CBI Wales
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met CBI Wales and its council.

  Mr. Redwood
  I met representatives of CBI Wales in June last year and was a principal guest at the CBI Wales dinner in December.

  Further Education
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many secondary schools are operating courses on a franchise basis from further education colleges.

  Mr. Redwood
  I know of no schools operating courses on a franchise basis from further education colleges in the academic year 1993–94. However, there are plans for some schools in South Glamorgan to provide courses on a franchise basis from Barry college and Coleg Glan Hafren from September 1994.

  NHS Trusts
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will give the size of the departmental unit responsible for the furtherance of NHS trusts.
  585
  Mr. Redwood
  Twelve full-time staff work specifically on NHS trust issues.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales on what date the Director of the national health service in Wales gave guidance to the South Glamorgan health authority community services trust-designate in relation to the expression of interest by the Llandough NHS trust in running the community health services in the Vale of Glamorgan area; whether the guidance had statutory support; what representations he has had in relation to such guidance; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Redwood
  I refer the hon. Member to my answer on 5 May, column 645.

  The director of NHS Wales wrote to the community and priority services unit on 19 November 1993 inviting an application for NHS trust status from April 1995. I have placed a copy of the letter in the Library of the House.

  Wales Tourist Board
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what consultations he has had with the chairman of the Wales tourist board in relation to the number of(a) applications and (b) approvals for suspension of the repayment of grants, where sale of the grant-aided tourist facility has taken place before the due period in each year from 1988 to 1993 inclusive.

  Mr. Redwood
  None on these specific matters. The information requested is as follows:

  Year

  Number of Applications for Suspensions

  Approvals

  1988

  3

  1

  1989

  7

  3

  1990

  1

  0

  1991

  2

  1

  1992

  1

  1

  1993

  0

  0

  Cardiff Bay Development Corporation
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what consultations he has had with the relevant local authorities concerned with the de-designation of the Cardiff Bay development corporation in relation to the ongoing financial obligations arising from the construction of the barrage in relation to the(a) valuation of land, (b) water quality obligations and (c) other matters; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Redwood
  I refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave him on 15 July, column 813–14.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what proposals he has for the provision of(a) grant-in-aid and (b) national loans fund finance to the Cardiff Bay development corporation; what legal opinion he has sought in relation to the regularity of the payments of grants by the corporation to (i) Prudential Assurance Company and (ii) NCM for their new headquarters offices; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Redwood
  Grant-in-aid of £48.2 million is being made available to the Cardiff Bay development corporation in this financial year. There are no plans to draw on the national loans fund.
  586
  The corporation has wide-ranging powers to incur expenditure to secure the regeneration of its area under the Local Government Planning and Land Act 1980 and the Inner Urban Areas Act 1978. It is for the corporation to assure itself of the regularity of any grant payments it makes. I have had no reason to seek separate legal opinion on the corporation's support for Prudential and NCM.

  Fish Passes
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what consultations he has had with the chairman of the Wales region of the National Rivers Authority concerning research programmes into the efficiency of fish passes on south Wales rivers, barrages and weirs with respect to the passage of the (i) salmon, (ii) sea-trout or sewin, (iii) river lampey, (iv) sea lampey, (v) allis shad, (vi) twaite shad and (vii) eel and into the impact of barrages on the long term management strategies needed to maintain appropriate water quality standards.

  Mr. Redwood
  None.

  Training and Enterprise Councils
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what consultation he has had with the chairmen of the Welsh training and enterprise councils concerning the current level of financial surpluses in hand; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Redwood
  I have not discussed the current level of financial surpluses with TEC chairmen. However, my officials regularly discuss the planned use of surpluses with TEC chairmen and chief executives during annual contract negotiations and therefore have taken current levels of surplus into account when considering contracts for 1994–95.

  Welsh Historic Monuments
  Mr. Sweeney
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what plans he has for the future of Cadw, Welsh Historic Monuments.

  Mr. Redwood
  Cadw, Welsh Historic Monuments, was established as an executive agency within the Welsh Office in April 1991. Following an evaluation and options review, I have decided that Cadw should continue as an executive agency for the next five years. Within this framework, a significant part of Cadw's operations will be subject to market testing, including initially some 115 posts in Cadw's direct labour force. I also intend to consider the feasibility of other methods of increasing the involvement of the private sector in the agency's operations.

  Medical Emergency Admissions
  Mr. Win Griffiths
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many medical emergency admissions were made by each hospital in each of the last five years; and what assessment he has made of these figures on the planning for bed provision in Wales.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  [holding answer 4 July 1994]: The following table shows, for each of the last five years for which data are available, the number of immediate admissions to hospitals in Wales, excluding those which were classified as mental handicap or mental illness.
  587
  The provision of hospital beds is a matter for health authorities and NHS trusts. It is their responsibility to ensure that beds are available for those who need them.

  Immediate admissions in financial year

  Health Authority/Hospital

  1988–89

  1989–90

  1990–91

  1991–92

  1992–93

  Clwyd

  Abergele1

  433

  402

  1,646

  —

  —

  Catherine Gladstone2

  58

  81

  92

  56

  11

  Chirk Community3

  —

  —

  83

  154

  188

  Colwyn Bay Community

  343

  356

  367

  376

  381

  Deeside Community3

  —

  —

  —

  —

  75

  Denbighshire Infirmary

  304

  332

  349

  377

  475

  Dobshill

  —

  1

  18

  30

  43

  Flint Community

  235

  231

  236

  168

  106

  H.M. Stanley1

  2,570

  2,666

  10,248

  —

  —

  Holywell Community

  284

  276

  277

  170

  106

  Llangollen Community

  192

  210

  201

  97

  94

  Lluesty1

  84

  71

  149

  —

  —

  Meadowslea

  1

  —

  22

  1

  12

  Mold Community

  171

  286

  346

  302

  275

  Penley

  1

  —

  1

  —

  —

  Prestatyn Community

  55

  49

  71

  76

  22

  Royal Alexandra

  166

  149

  143

  135

  120

  Ruthin Community

  209

  227

  217

  191

  187

  Trevalyn

  —

  5

  22

  10

  17

  Ysbyty Glan Clwyd1

  11,600

  12,644

  20,580

  16,298

  16,155

  Ysbyty Maclor1

  12,499

  12,228

  4,219

  14,782

  14,809

  East Dyfed

  Aberaeron

  3

  4

  1

  10

  2

  Amman Valley

  5

  1

  28

  90

  11

  Bronglais

  4,436

  4,564

  5,020

  5,085

  5,554

  Bryntirion

  799

  607

  187

  17

  403

  Cardigan and District

  42

  125

  185

  201

  275

  Llandovery

  301

  373

  302

  151

  294

  Llanelli General2

  2,648

  2,380

  487

  —

  —

  Mynydd Mawr

  3

  38

  33

  29

  93

  Prince Philip3

  —

  —

  3,842

  6,216

  7,003

  Tregaron

  10

  13

  6

  54

  81

  West Wales General

  7,599

  8,144

  7,973

  7,491

  9,880

  Pembrokeshire

  South Pembrokeshire

  427

  406

  402

  536

  507

  Tenby Cottage

  149

  139

  133

  188

  212

  Withybush General

  9,523

  10,495

  9,670

  8,706

  8,968

  Gwent

  Abertillery District

  74

  117

  133

  144

  109

  Allt-Yr-Yn

  3

  3

  5

  16

  14

  Blaenavon Health Care Unit

  135

  201

  179

  130

  110

  Blaina and District

  170

  247

  190

  185

  137

  County

  819

  767

  586

  365

  3

  Ebbw Vale

  37

  84

  66

  138

  99

  Monmouth General

  148

  170

  181

  153

  147

  Mount Pleasant

  284

  302

  164

  145

  299

  Nevill Hall

  10,537

  10,855

  9,945

  9,269

  9,569

  Oakdale

  3

  3

  9

  3

  2

  Pontypool and District

  83

  76

  48

  46

  52

  Royal Gwent

  16,114

  16,573

  18,407

  18,103

  18,520

  St. Lawrence

  1,583

  1,557

  1,895

  1,807

  1,888

  St. Woolos

  3,365

  3,852

  4,355

  3,627

  3,840

  Tredegar General

  50

  111

  70

  98

  95

  Gwynedd

  Bron-y-Garth

  43

  31

  —

  —

  250

  Bryn Beryl

  255

  169

  204

  245

  212

  Brynseiont

  33

  13

  8

  44

  70

  Bryn-y-neuadd

  —

  —

  —

  34

  —

  Caernarvon Eye and Cottage2

  130

  119

  19

  —

  —

  Cefni2

  10

  4

  —

  —

  —

  Conwy

  51

  76

  127

  128

  129

  Dolgellau and District

  354

  203

  301

  207

  251

  Druid

  20

  6

  3

  95

  68

  Eryri

  116

  10

  6

  103

  117

  Ffestiniog Memorial

  205

  232

  189

  181

  159

  Groesynyd2

  7

  14

  12

  —

  —

  Llandudno General

  3,531

  3,006

  2,785

  2,261

  1,532

  Madoc Memorial2

  112

  155

  104

  —

  —

  588 589

  Health Authority/Hospital

  1988–89

  1989–90

  1990–91

  1991–92

  1992–93

  St. David's

  4,749

  2,014

  1,487

  —

  1,043

  Stanley Sailors

  214

  160

  16

  189

  186

  Towyn and District War Memorial

  474

  462

  441

  338

  247

  Valley

  26

  9

  1

  76

  94

  Ysbyty Gwynedd

  12,335

  12,258

  12,928

  14,097

  10,459

  Mid Glamorgan

  Aberbargoed and District

  187

  198

  189

  28

  173

  Aberdare General

  412

  502

  383

  571

  578

  Bridgend General

  775

  876

  1,032

  1,358

  1,270

  Caerphilly District Miners

  2,638

  2,835

  2,802

  3,281

  3,064

  Dewi Sam

  1,318

  1,554

  1,337

  2

  —

  East Glamorgan General

  10,484

  10,137

  10,887

  12,462

  12,413

  Energlyn

  2

  —

  4

  —

  2

  FedwHir2

  2

  4

  5

  —

  —

  Llwynypia

  780

  780

  850

  920

  868

  Maesgwyn

  82

  96

  177

  50

  60

  Maesteg General

  430

  439

  350

  400

  388

  Mardy

  93

  92

  34

  54

  42

  Merthyr General2

  453

  522

  593

  5

  —

  Mountain Ash General

  357

  419

  355

  170

  36

  Pentwyn2

  25

  21

  37

  3

  —

  Pontypridd and District2

  29

  27

  53

  2

  —

  Porth and District2

  33

  19

  12

  43

  216

  Prince Charles

  10.626

  11,612

  12,973

  14,300

  14,947

  Princess of Wales

  9,623

  10,787

  11,458

  10,844

  11,002

  Redwood Memorial

  129

  91

  120

  39

  102

  Rhiwfelin2

  2

  1

  3

  —

  —

  St. Tydfil's

  2,228

  1.808

  1,393

  2,284

  2,253

  Talygarn2

  155

  76

  77

  —

  —

  Tonteg

  17

  7

  —

  41

  5

  Treherbert

  75

  72

  79

  91

  59

  Tyntyla2

  4

  3

  —

  2

  —

  Ysbyty George Thomas3

  —

  —

  —

  12

  21

  Ystrad Mynach

  13

  —

  9

  38

  107

  Powys

  Breconshire War Memorial

  891

  1,003

  997

  1,024

  1,036

  Bronllys

  96

  154

  146

  152

  184

  Builth Wells Cottage

  407

  459

  522

  605

  413

  Knighton

  71

  100

  104

  93

  105

  Llandrindod Wells

  581

  684

  668

  687

  780

  Llanidloes & District

  220

  345

  375

  310

  327

  Machynlleth and District

  145

  172

  137

  412

  563

  Machynlleth Chest

  226

  269

  230

  Montgomery County Infirmary

  358

  375

  272

  281

  351

  St. David's

  52

  49

  41

  1,441

  —

  Victoria Memorial

  164

  185

  223

  265

  265

  Ystradgynlais Community

  124

  132

  79

  184

  262

  South Glamorgan

  Barry Community

  577

  569

  526

  526

  559

  Cardiff Royal Infirmary

  11,524

  10,800

  10,780

  10,783

  10,781

  Childrens ENT2

  2

  3

  —

  1

  —

  Glan Ely2

  1

  5

  4

  —

  —

  Lansdowne

  4

  2

  1

  3

  6

  Llandough

  9,180

  10,478

  14,172

  13,159

  13,490

  Neale Kent2

  1

  2

  19

  —

  —

  Prince of Wales

  76

  102

  59

  26

  19

  Rookwood

  7

  2

  17

  5

  20

  St. David's2

  277

  263

  227

  1

  —

  Sully

  429

  533

  510

  944

  702

  University Hospital of Wales

  13,205

  16,857

  16.981

  18,238

  17,493

  Velindre

  625

  770

  790

  682

  857

  West Glamorgan

  Clydach War Memorial

  114

  114

  84

  123

  47

  Cymla

  737

  469

  14

  364

  352

  Fairwood

  —

  —

  —

  —

  7

  Gellinudd2

  36

  37

  39

  42

  —

  Gorseinon

  34

  150

  118

  195

  114

  Groeswen

  —

  —

  —

  32

  38

  Hill House

  11

  4

  6

  19

  31

  Morriston

  16,157

  17,709

  14,239

  11,655

  10,792

  Mount Pleasant

  29

  15

  8

  75

  19

  Neath General

  6,464

  7,378

  6,509

  7,951

  7,999

  Port Talbot General

  15

  8

  5

  22

  4

  Singleton

  5,936

  6,613

  5,028

  9,924

  9,528

  590 591

  Health Authority/Hospital

  1988–89

  1989–90

  1990–91

  1991–92

  1992–93

  Not classified to hospitals

  —

  —

  —

  550

  1,458

  1 Data for these hospitals in 1991–92 and 1992–93 is considered unreliable.

  2 Hospital closed during period covered.

  3 Hospital opened during period covered.

  Notes:

  1. Figures for 1988–9 to 1990–91 derived from Hospital Activity Analysis. For subsequent years from the Patient Episode Database for Wales.

  2. In some cases patient records were incomplete and these are shown separately at the bottom of the table.

  Departmental Efficiency
  Mr. Thurnham
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what steps he is taking to improve the efficiency of his Department.

  Mr. Richards
  [Pursuant to the reply, 14 February, column 628.] My hon. Friend may wish to be aware that in 1994–95 the Welsh Office is seeking to achieve efficiency savings of 6 per cent. This compares with the Treasury requirement to make savings of at least 2 per cent.

HEALTH

  Health Service Staff
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will list by regional health authority the numbers of health service directly employed staff by main staff group in each of the last five years; and what were the changes between each year and the next over the whole period in numbers and percentages.

  Mr. Sackville
  The information requested will be placed in the Library.

  Staff Statistics
  Mr. Milburn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will give the latest figures and list for each of the last four years by region the number of(a) doctors, (b) nurses, (c) midwives, (d) health visitors, (e) administration and clerical staff and f managers.

  Number of prescribed items (millions) dispensed in the Family Health Services in England 1989 to 1993 and revenue from prescription charges (£ million) in England 1989–90 to 1993–94

  Prescribed items1

  Charge revenue2

  Dispensed by community pharmacists and appliance contractors

  Year

  Total

  Free of charge

  Charge paid

  Dispensed by dispensing doctors

  Personally administered free of charge by prescribing doctors

  Year

  Amount

  Free of charge

  Charge paid

  1989

  383·5

  273·7

  78·2

  25·6

  6·0

  1989–90

  189·3

  1990

  394·8

  282·8

  77·7

  26·8

  7·5

  1990–91

  205·9

  1991

  406·5

  296·4

  74·3

  27·7

  8·1

  1991–92

  215·2

  1992

  425·1

  313·1

  73·6

  29·1

  9·2

  1992–93

  242·0

  1993

  445·4

  332·8

  72·3

  30·6

  9·7

  1993–94

  265·3

  1 1989 and 1990 figures are on fees; 1991 to 1993 figures are based on items. Figures may not sum to rounding

  2 Includes revenue from sale of Prescription Prepayment certificates. 1993–94 figures and Provisional

  592
  Mr. Sackville
  The information will be placed in the Library. The number of managers has been deliberately increased since the mid 1980s—not just since the reforms —because the service was previously undermanaged. Much of the increase arises from the reclassification of existing staff—including many senior nurses—as manag-ers. General and senior managers still account for only 2 per cent. of the total national health service workforce in England and 3 per cent. of the total NHS expenditure on salaries and wages.

  Prescriptions
  Mr. Nigel Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many prescriptions were issued in each of the last five years for which figures are available; how many of these prescriptions were exempt from charges; and what was the gross income to her Department from prescription charges.

  Mr. Sackville
  The available information is shown in the table. The analysis of free-of-charge and charge-paid items dispensed by community pharmacists and appliance contractors is based on a one-in-20 sample of all the prescriptions they submit to the Prescription Pricing Authority. Items dispensed by dispensing doctors cannot be similarly analysed because doctors are not obliged to obtain a written declaration of entitlement to free prescriptions from the patients to whom they dispense free of charge, and there is no basis on which a reasonable estimate could be made. All prescribed items personally administered to patients by prescribing doctors are free of charge.

  NHS Expenditure
  Mr. Bayley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health, pursuant to her answer of 21 February,Official Report, column 347–48, if she will update the information on NHS expenditure to include estimates for 1994–95; and if she will adjust the appropriate figures in the tables on the basis of current prices.

  Mr. Sackville
  The information will be placed in the Library. It is not possible to adjust for changes in the input unit costs beyond 1990–91 for capital expenditure or for national health service current expenditure, or beyond 1992–93 for hospital and community health services current expenditure.

  Mr. Bayley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health, pursuant to her answer of 21 February,Official Report, column 925–926, on health services expenditure, if she will adjust the figures by (a) the gross domestic product deflator and (b) input unit costs to include figures for (i) 1992–93, (ii) 1993–94 and (iii) estimates for 1994–95; and if she will recalculate the appropriate figures in the new tables on the basis of current prices.

  Mr. Sackville
  The tables referred to have been updated and will be placed in the Library. They now include programme budget figures for 1991–92 and 1992–93 in place of provisional provider based estimates used previously. Expenditure figures for 1993–94 and estimates for 1994–95 are not yet available. Expenditure estimates adjusted for input unit costs are not yet available at 1993–94 prices.

  Ms Primarolo
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what has been spent in real terms outside the NHS by purchasers in each year since 1990(a) in total, (b) by regional health authority and (c) by district health authority.

  Mr. Sackville
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Military Personnel
  Mr. Blunkett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will make it her policy that military use of NHS facilities and staff will not be paid for out of the NHS budget.

  Mr. Sackville
  Under existing arrangements service personnel are able to receive treatment from the national health service. But for most normal peacetime purposes service personnel are treated by defence medical services at the expense of the Defence budget. This will continue under the arrangements proposed by my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Defence. Any agreed additional costs to the NHS from setting up military district hospital units in NHS hospitals and from treating service patients there will be met from the Defence budget.

  Community Dental Service
  Mr. Blunkett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how she proposes the community dental service being funded if responsibility for the community dental service is transferred to health authorities.

  Mr. Sackville
  District health authorities are already responsible for purchasing community dental services. DHAs are funded for this purpose through their general allocations.

  Hospital Water
  Ms Primarolo
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) how many hospitals do not meet the current legal limit of lead in water;

  (2) how many times in each of the last five years sub-standard drinking water has been reported from hospitals.

  Mr. Sackville
  I am not aware of any hospitals which do not meet the current legal limit of lead in water nor of any reports of sub-standard drinking water in the national health service.

  Ambulances
  Ms Primarolo
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what percentage of ambulances used unleaded fuel in each of the last five years;

  (2) what percentage of ambulances have catalytic converters.

  Mr. Sackville
  This information is not available centrally.

  Hospital Information Support Systems
  Mrs. Fyfe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if it is her policy that the national health service as a whole adopt hospital information support systems; what progress has been made to date; on what criteria that or any other system is selected; and if cost comparisons can now be made between similar units.

  Mr. Sackville
  The national health service executive's information management and technology strategy en-courages hospitals to move towards the implementation of integrated information systems.

  Around 50 sites in England are implementing hospital information support systems.

  It is for each hospital to determine, locally, whether it can justify spending on such systems. If so, then each is expected, where relevant, to run a competitive procurement under European Community rules.

  Costs of many contracts have been published in the Official Journal of European Communities, from which comparisons may be made. Copies of the journal are available in the Library.

  Prisoner Referrals
  Mr. McCartney
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will give a breakdown of the referrals for psychiatric treatment of prisoners broken down by category for each year since 1984.

  Mr. Sackville
  The available information is shown in the table:

  Estimated number of cases of hospital admissions, including day cases, recorded as being referred from penal institutions, courts, or police stations

  1989–90

  1990–91

  11991–92

  Acute sector

  1,560

  1,496

  1,548

  Geriatric

  40

  16

  20

  Maternity

  24

  20

  44

  Mental illness

  4,720

  5,024

  4,996

  Learning disability

  88

  44

  76

  Not known

  —

  —

  4

  Total

  6,432

  6,600

  6,688

  595
  Source: Hospital Episode Statistics.

  1 Provisional.

  Advertising
  Ms Primarolo
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health, pursuant to her answer of 11 July,Official Report, column 422, what proportion of expenditure on advertising by the health service concerned health education information and how much concerned information related to health reforms.

  Mr. Sackville
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Tobacco
  Ms Primarolo
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many shops there are on national health service premises selling cigarettes otherwise than to long-stay patients who are smokers.

  Mr. Sackville
  Surveys carried out by regional health authorities showed that six outlets were still offering tobacco products for general sale at the end of May 1993. Three of these outlets have since ceased such general sale. The Department will continue to keep the matter under review.

  Energy
  Ms Primarolo
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many energy consultants were employed by the national health service in each of the last five years; and what was the energy bill for the national health service in each of the last five years.

  Mr. Sackville
  Information on the number of energy consultants employed in the national health service is not available centrally. I understand that individual national health service trusts and health authorities have made appointments of this kind.

  Expenditure on energy by national health service trusts and health authorities is shown in the table.

  Total expenditure on energy by national health service trusts and health authorities

  Year

  £ thousands

  1988–89

  210,374

  1989–90

  219,615

  1990–91

  233,884

  1991–92

  270,141

  1992–93

  278,750

  Source:

  1. Annual accounts and financial returns of district, regional and special health authorities.

  2. Annual financial returns of national health service trusts, 1991–92 and 1992–93.

  Ms Primarolo
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what progress has been made towards her target for reducing energy consumption in the national health service over the five years from 1991–92.

  Mr. Sackville
  The target for reducing energy consumption in the national health service applies to the five years from April 1991. In the first two years, the national health service achieved a reduction in energy consumption of 7·1 per cent. which is the latest period for 596
  which information is available. Plans for the subsequent three years indicate that the national health service will meet the overall reduction of 15 per cent.

  Publicity
  Ms Primarolo
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health, pursuant to her answer of 20 June,Official Report, column 22, what amount of money spent on publicity by the information division is expended on (a) information or publicity about or as a result of the reforms and (b) health education matters for the public.

  Mr. Sackville
  The information could be provided only at disproportionate cost.

  Military District Hospital Units
  Mr. Blunkett
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Health Department how the extra military district hospital units to be established in national health service hospitals will be accommodated; and what extra funding will be available for the hospitals in which they are placed.

  Mr. Sackville
  Service personnel in military district hospital units will be integrated within national health service hospitals. How they and service patients are accommodated will be a matter to be discussed directly between the hospital and the Ministry of Defence. Any agreed extra costs to a hospital from establishing a unit or from treating service patients will be met from the Defence budget.

  Mr. Blunkett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Defence regarding his plans to close the Army's Cambridge military hospital at Aldershot and the Princess Alexandra hospital at Wroughton and to set up regional military district hospital units at NHS hospitals.

  Mr. Sackville
  In common with other Cabinet colleagues my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has been kept fully appraised of my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Defence's proposals.

  Mortality Statistics
  Dr. Wright
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) if she will list the figures for stroke mortality by gender in each district health authority for the last two years;

  (2) if she will list the figures for breast cancer mortality in each district health authority in each of the last two years;

  (3) if she will list the figures for lung cancer by gender at district health authority level for the last two years;

  (4) if she will give the figures for skin cancer mortality by gender by district health authority for the last two years;

  (5) if she will give the figures for coronary heart disease mortality by gender by district health authority for the last two years;

  (6) if she will list the figures for cervical cancer mortality by district health authority for the last two years.

  Mr. Sackville
  This information will be placed in the Library.

  Health Service Indicators
  Dr. Wright
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) if she will list the preliminary set of outcome indicators produced by the population health outcome indicators feasibility study; and if she will make a statement;

  (2) if she will publish the criteria used by the Faculty of Public Health in confirming the suitability of outcome indicators for the health service indicators set;

  (3) if she will list the outcome indicators recommended by the Chief Medical Officer's working party on outcome indicators; and if she will also list which of those indicators were confirmed by the Faculty of Public Health to be included in the latest set of health service indicators;

  (4) what outcome indicators will be included in the 1992–93 health service indicator set;

  (5) if she will make a statement on the population health outcome indicators for the national health service feasibility study.

  Mr. Sackville
  The Chief Medical Officer's working party on population health outcome indicators did not recommend specific outcome indicators. It identified a number of potential indicators which could be produced using data currently available. The Department of Health subsequently commissioned the Faculty of Public Health Medicine to undertake a feasibility study of suggested indicators against a set of criteria. The faculty made some recommendations as part of the first phase of this study, following which the Department of Health commissioned analysis of those indicators recommended. This resulted in the production of the two documents 'Population Health Outcome Indicators for the NHS—A Consultation Document' and 'Population Health Outcome Indicators for the NHS—A Feasibility Study' copies of which are available in the Library. These documents list the population health outcome indicators suggested by the study.

  The criteria adopted in determining the suitability of particular indicators were set out in some detail in the documents but one overriding criterion was that the indicators should be based on routinely collected data.

  Following a positive consultation, which showed that this initiative was favourably received, the central health outcomes unit of the Department will shortly be commissioning work within the health service to test the practicality and effectiveness of the indicators suggested in a working environment. Updated indicators will, in future, be included within the "Public Health Common Data Set" which is distributed to the NHS annually. The information will not, necessarily, be duplicated within the health service indicators.

  Work is also starting on a further phase of development of population health outcomes measures. This will build on the work which has taken place and specifically will look to the future information needs of the health service and the data which will require to be collected to assess health outcomes.

  Dr. Wright
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will place in the Library, indicator numerators, denominators and values and rankings, as mentioned on page 24 of the 1991–92 health service indicators discussion paper.

  Mr.Sackville
  Arrangements are being made for the numerators and denominator values used in the health 598
  service indicators to be placed in the Library when available. These should be used with care since the timetable for the publication often requires the use of provisional and unvalidated data which may be corrected in published values of statistics.

  Dr. Wright
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health of what the purchaser mortality ML61, as used in the health service indicators set, consists.

  Mr. Sackville
  An explanation of the purchaser mortality ML61, as used in the health service indicators set, is contained in the health service handbook, copies of which are available in the Library.

  Clinical Effectiveness Indicators
  Dr. Wright
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) if she will list all information sources, including databases, detailing clinical effectiveness indicators which are(a) maintained and (b) used by the Department of Health, its public bodies and other advisory bodies; and if she will also list the forms in which those databases are maintained;

  (2) which clinical effectiveness indicator datasets refer (a) to individual episodes and (b) to individual patients;

  (3) what clinical effectiveness indicators are collated at the level of (a) district health authorities and (b) individual units.

  Mr. Sackville
  The assessment of clinical effectiveness is complex and does not readily lend itself to the production of indicators. However, there are a number of national confidential inquiries based on systems reporting individual episodes and individual patients whose anonymised reports assist clinicians to improve clinical effectiveness.

  The main confidential enquiries are:
  National Confidential Enquiry into Peri-Operative Deaths Confidential Enquiry into Stillbirths and Deaths in Infancy Confidential Enquiry into Maternal Deaths
  National Confidential Enquiry into Quality of Genetic Counselling

  In addition, the national network of cancer registries which are computerised, provide a database of cancer cases and the outcome of those cases.

  Dr. Wright
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what guidelines there are to ensure that collated clinical effectiveness data are seen by surgeons in each individual hospital.

  Mr. Sackville
  It is a professional responsibility of all doctors, including surgeons, to keep in touch with relevant professional developments. This includes information about clinical effectiveness.

  Dr. Wright
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will list the changes which have been made in the collation of clinical effectiveness indicators as a result of the 1991–92 health service indicators discussion paper.

  Mr. Sackville
  As a result of the 1991–92 health service indicator discussion paper the indicator set was increased to include the "Population Health Outcome Indicators for the NHS". Copies of the revised indicators are available in the Library.

  Clinical Guidelines
  Dr. Wright
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will make a statement on the progress of the national health service executive initiative involving the use of clinical guidelines to inform the contracting process.

  Mr. Sackville
  The clinical outcomes group has established a sub-group on clinical guidelines which will guide the future development of the national health service executive's work.

  A series of five workshops have been held to gain feedback from the national health service on the development work initiated in December.

  Ambulance Response Times
  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will list the criteria for defining rural and urban areas in compiling ambulance response times; and if she will make a statement.

  Mr. Sackville
  The formula for classification of national health service ambulance services as urban or rural was introduced following the acceptance of a recommendation made in an independent consultants report in 1990. Those ambulance services serving an area with an overall population density of greater than 2.5 people per acre were classified as urban. Others were classified as rural. The population density formula acknowledges the higher number of longer distance journeys travelled by ambulance services in less densely populated rural areas.

  Out-patients
  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what figures are available to indicate how many patients are discharged from a hospital out-patient unit after three consultations; how many of these are subsequently referred back to the out-patient unit; and what figures are available specifically for Burnley health care trust.

  Mr. Sackville
  The information available centrally on out-patient attendances is published in "Outpatients and ward attenders for England, Financial Year 1992–93" copies of which are available in the Library.

  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what figures are available for general practitioner referral times for a patient's initial appointment at Burnley health care trust's out-patient unit, and the numbers of patients involved; and if she will make a statement;

  (2) what monitoring she has done of general practitioner referral times from initial letters to a patient's initial appointment at a hospital out-patient unit; and if she will make a statement.

  Mr. Sackville
  A system of monitoring the length of time a patient waits from general practitioner referral to first consultant out-patient appointment is being in-troduced. Data collection is in the early stages and the information collected is not yet sufficiently comprehensive to enable publication.

  Operation Cancellations
  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what figures are available for operations cancelled within one week of the appointment date; and if she will make a statement.
  600
  Mr. Sackville
  This information is not available centrally.

  Infertility
  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what information she has available to show the level of NHS expenditure for infertility within each English region;

  (2) how many persons have received infertility treatment within the NHS in each year since 1983; on how many occasions this has led to pregnancy; and what figures she has available for successful pregnancy form NHS in-vitro fertilisation treatment, annually, for each NHS region in England.

  Mr. Sackville
  Information is available for three years on the numbers of finished consultant episodes for cases with a diagnosis of female infertility. Figures for ordinary admissions and day cases in England are shown in the table:

  Number

  1989–90

  25,510

  1990–91

  25,145

  1991–92

  127,276

  1 Provisional.

  These figures include only those patients who are admitted to hospital to use a bed.

  Comparable information for earlier years is not available. Information is not available centrally on the numbers of successful treatments or the level of national health service expenditure on infertility in each English region.

  Source: Hospital Episode Statistics.

  Day Care Surgery
  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will list the criteria set down to define treatment suitable for day surgical care; and if she will make a statement about the future of day care surgery.

  Mr. Sackville
  Hospital consultants are responsible for making clinical judgments about the suitability of individual patients for day surgery treatments. In 1992 the Royal College of Surgeons produced guidelines which stated that day surgery is now considered the best option for 50 per cent. of all patients undergoing elective surgical procedures. The introduction of new surgical techniques, and developments in anaesthesia, are increasing the range of operations which can be carried out on a day care basis.

  Waiting Times
  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health which hospitals have been reported by the Audit Commission as using inadequate systems for compiling waiting times; and if she will make a statement.

  Mr. Sackville
  The systems in place to compile the waiting times statistics published in the 1993–94 hospital and ambulance services comparative performance guide were reviewed by the Audit Commission's auditors. Hospitals or trusts whose waiting times result in the comparative performance guide have no star ratings are those where the auditors had reservations about the systems in place. Copies of the comparative performance guide are available in the Library.

  Staff (Consultation)
  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will give the current arrangements for a standing procedure for consultations with staff concerning the operation and administration of the service.

  Mr. Sackville
  Long established consultation arrange-ments with the staff sides of the Whitley councils ensure that all staff interests have the opportunity to comment on major departmental developments likely to affect them.

  Porton Down
  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many consultancy contracts have been secured by the new centre for applied microbiology and research at Porton Down; what other Government Department's have placed contracts at the centre; what is the total value of those contracts; and if she will make a statement on the operation of the Microbiological Research Authority since 1 April.

  Mr. Sackville
  The Centre for Applied Microbiology and Research—CAMR—provides a range of services including consultancy advice, research, development and production. Many contracts involve some or all of these services. Since 1 April 1994, CAMR has secured 26 consultancy-only contracts at a total value of £72,000 and 11 contracts involving consultancy and other services with a value of £2 million in 1994–95. In addition CAMR is providing similar services under pre-existing contracts to the value of £5.5 million. Three contracts have been placed by other Government Departments with a total value of £387,000 in 1994–95.

  Since 1 April the authority has completed a major reorganisation of the centre to give a better focus to its operations and has created a business development unit to seek additional external income. I look forward to meeting the staff and reviewing progress when I visit the centre in September.

  Dental Services (Lewisham, Deptford)
  Ms Ruddock
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will list the dentists in the constituency of Lewisham, Deptford, which will accept NHS patients; of those listed, which dentists have said that their lists for NHS patients are currently closed; and if she will make a statement.

  Mr. Sackville
  This information is not available centrally. The Lambeth, Southwark and Lewisham family health services authority advises that it can help a patient in the area find a national health service dentist. The hon. Member may wish to contact Mr. Ian Mills, the chairman, for details.

  Bradford Community Health Council
  Mr. Madden
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will list the names and organisations represented of those serving currently on Bradford community health council; how many vacancies currently exist; how many public meetings community health councils are required to hold annually; and if she will make a statement.

  Mr. Sackville
  Information about the names, vacancies and organisations represented on individual community health councils is not available centrally. Regional health authorities, as the establishing body, have these details.
  602
  Community health councils are required to hold meetings once every three months and these meetings would normally be open to the public.

  Private Consultant Episodes
  Ms Primarolo
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many finished consultant episodes on private patients in NHS hospitals occurred by(a) region and (b) district health authority in (i) 1990–91, (ii) 1991–92 and (iii) 1992–93.

  Mr. Sackville
  The most recent information available at regional level is shown in the table.

  Region

  1990–91

  11991–92

  England

  81,366

  89,863

  Northern

  3,349

  3,178

  Yorkshire

  4,842

  5,263

  Trent

  2,797

  3,038

  East Anglia

  4,504

  4,270

  North West Thames

  10,345

  9,337

  North East Thames

  7,402

  9,850

  South East Thames

  6,648

  8,636

  South West Thames

  5,081

  6,269

  Wessex

  2,643

  2,673

  Oxford

  6,928

  7,244

  South Western

  5,044

  5,458

  West Midlands

  6,081

  6,866

  Mersey

  2,370

  2,249

  North Western

  6,445

  7,224

  Special health authorities

  6,887

  8,306

  1 Provisional.

  Source: SD2A, Hospital Episode Statistics.

  Reliable information at district level could be provided only at disproportionate cost.

  Wheelchairs
  Mr. Alfred Morris
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what developments there have been in regard to the provision of indoor/outdoor powered wheelchairs for all permanently disabled children and adults requiring them for independent mobility on the basis recommended by the Government's working party chaired by Professor—now Lord—McColl in 1986, further to the Adjournment debate on this subject on 1 July; and if she will make a statement.

  Mr. Bowis
  I reiterate the remarks I made during the constructive debate on 1 July at columns 1124–28. I made it clear that the issue of wheelchairs, including powered indoor/outdoor wheelchairs, is a matter for health authorities and national health service hospital and community care units—trusts—in the light of their resources and priorities, but I have set up a departmental working group to look at all aspects of such a scheme and it will take evidence from experts. I have asked for a report to be made to me by the end of October.

  Durham University Business School
  Mr. Gunnell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what grants or other payments have been made to the Durham university business school and for what purposes by the Northern regional health authority under its present chairman.
  603
  Mr. Sackville
  This is a local matter for the Northern and Yorkshire regional health authority. The hon. Member may wish to contact Mr. John Greetham, chairman of the authority, for details.

  Abortions
  Mr. Barnes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many residents of Northern Ireland have obtained abortions in England and Wales in each year since 1968; and what is the total number.

  Mr. Sackville
  The information requested is published for 1970 to 1973 in 'The Registrar General's Statistical Review of England and Wales, Supplement on Abortion' (Table 15);
  1974 to 1980 in 'Abortion Statistics', OPCS series AB nos. 1–7 (Table 6.11);
  1981 to 1991 in 'Abortion Statistics' OPCS series AB nos. 8–18 (Table 25); and
  1992 in 'Legal abortions 1992', OPCS Monitor AB 94/1 (Table 6).

  Copies are available in the Library.

  Ministerial Visits
  Mrs. Roche
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many overseas visits she and each of her Ministers have made between 1 January and 30 June; during how many she, or each of her Ministers, participated in fundraising activities for the Conservative party; and if she will name the Ministers and the countries in which these activities took place.

  Mr. Sackville
  Health Ministers made nine overseas visits in their official capacity during the period. Fundraising activities for the Conservative party are not part of official duties.

  Chief Executive Officers
  Mrs. Fyfe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what proportion of chief executive officers in the national health service now consider that the information available to them is adequate; what was the proportion in 1992; and what steps are being taken to improve and to monitor availability of information.

  Mr. Sackville
  The information requested is not available centrally. It is for local managers to ensure the availability of the information they require. The chief executive of the then national health service management executive emphasised their responsibility for the quality of such information in EL(93)117, copies of which are available in the Library.

  Policy Initiatives
  Mr. David Nicholson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what estimates her Department has made as to the costs to industry of policy initiatives resulting from "The Health of the Nation".

  Region

  Number of funds

  1991–92

  1992–93

  1993–94

  1994–95

  Northern

  27

  38

  69

  84

  Yorkshire

  34

  59

  108

  133

  Trent

  28

  58

  138

  212

  East Anglian

  9

  13

  48

  78

  North West Thames

  22

  43

  88

  105

  North East Thames

  13

  23

  48

  71

  604
  Mr. Sackville
  "The Health of the Nation" imposes no new requirements on industry. However there are clear benefits of improved competitiveness to be gained through improving the health of the workforce and we look forward to seeing those benefits realised.

  Domiciliary Services
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what proposals she has to strengthen the guidelines in relation to recommendations for disregards arising from war pensions for the purpose of charges for domiciliary services under care in the community and the means-testing thereof.

  Mr. Bowis
  We have no plans to review the guidelines for domiciliary services provided for mentally ill people.

  Extra-contractual Referrals
  Mr. Milburn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health, pursuant to her answer of 18 July,Official Report, column 20, what information she is prepared to publish on extra-contractual referrals and spending by region.

  Mr. Sackville
  The information available is not audited and therefore unsuitable for publication.

  Fundholders
  Ms Primarolo
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what savings were made by fundholders at the end of each financial year since 1990–91.

  Mr. Sackville
  In the first year of the scheme, 1991–92, fundholders achieved efficiency savings of £14.5 million, equivalent to 3.6 per cent. of budgets set. Final audited figures for 1992–93 and 1993–94 are not yet available.

  Ms Primarolo
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) if she will list the office costs allowance including computer costs given to each GP fundholder by region in each year since 1990–91;

  (2) if she will list the start-up grants provided to potential fundholders by region in each year since 1990–91.

  Mr. Sackville
  This information is not available centrally.

  Ms Primarolo
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many fundholders there were in each region in each year since 1990–91; and what were the total allowances payments made to them in each region in each year since 1990–91.

  Mr. Sackville
  The number of general practitioner fundholders by region in each year since 1991–92, the first year of the scheme, are shown in the table. Information about the management and computer allowances paid to them is not collected centrally.
  605

  Region

  Number of funds

  1991–92

  1992–93

  1993–94

  1994–95

  South East Thames

  15

  28

  77

  143

  South West Thames

  21

  39

  66

  116

  Wessex

  17

  34

  54

  85

  Oxford

  25

  46

  74

  107

  South Western

  20

  38

  69

  100

  West Midlands

  26

  58

  131

  219

  Mersey

  21

  46

  84

  101

  North Western

  16

  29

  66

  119

  England

  294

  552

  1,120

  1,673

  Blood Donations
  Mr. Hoyle
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what guidelines have been issued relating to the donation of blood by veterans of nuclear tests.

  Mr. Sackville
  The National Blood Authority does not consider that such persons, in general, should be excluded from donating blood. The decision whether or not to accept such a person as a donor depends on the individual's own medical history.

  Breast Feeding
  Ms Primarolo
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health which organisations and individuals have received funding from her Department in the last year to develop breast feeding initiatives; and what amounts were given.

  Mr. Sackville
  The Association of Breastfeeding Mothers, the Breastfeeding Promotion Group of the National Childbirth Trust, and La Leche League received funding, through section 64 grant aid, in 1993–94 in support of breast-feeding initiatives. The amounts given were, respectively, £12,500; £41,500 and £16,000.

  Ms Primarolo
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what is her Department's strategic plan in terms of breast feeding, weaning and infant nutrition.

  Mr. Sackville
  Our strategic plan is to continue to protect and promote breast feeding as the best way of feeding a baby and to ensure that up-to-date expert advice on breast feeding, weaning and infant nutrition, founded on the most reliable evidence and data is made available to health care professionals and the public.

  Weaning
  Ms Primarolo
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health when the Department will publish the Committee on Medical Aspects of Food report on weaning.

  Mr. Sackville
  The report is expected to be published later this year.

  "The Health of the Nation"
  Mr. David Nicholson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what is her estimate of the total cost of "The Health of the Nation" to her Department from its inception to date;

  (2) how many full-time equivalent staff are engaged in work directly connected with "The Health of the Nation".

  Mr. Sackville
  Improving health through "The Health of the Nation" strategy is a key objective for the 606
  Department and for the national health service which underpins much of the work of the Department. It is therefore not feasible to identify either the total cost of the initiative to the Department of Health or the number of staff involved.

  Mr. David Nicholson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) how many publications have been issued in connection with the "The Health of the Nation"; and what was the total cost to her Department;

  (2) what funds have been allocated by her Department and what grants awarded to organisations to develop activities and research in connection with the "The Health of the Nation" initiative.

  (3) how many task force committees, working groups and project teams were established by her Department as part of the "The Health of the Nation" initiative; what are their titles; and what is the cost of manning each of them;

  (4) what further publications her Department expects to issue in the coming year in connection with the "The Health of the Nation"; and what estimates she has as to the cost of producing these publications.

  Mr. Sackville
  I will write to my hon. Friend.

  Conceptions
  Dr. Lynne Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what was the rate of conceptions for(a) under 16-year-olds, ( b) under 17-year-olds and (c) under 18-year-olds in each of the last 15 years.

  Mr. Sackville
  The rate of conceptions per 1,000 women in England and Wales for the latest available 15 years were:

  Age of woman

  Year

  Under 16

  Under 17

  Under 18

  1977

  7·6

  15·3

  23·6

  1978

  7·6

  15·6

  24·5

  1979

  7·5

  15·7

  25·1

  1980

  7·2

  14·8

  23·8

  1981

  7·3

  15·2

  23·7

  1982

  7·8

  15·5

  23·9

  1983

  8·3

  16·2

  24·5

  1984

  8·7

  17·1

  26·3

  1985

  8·7

  17·4

  27·1

  1986

  8·8

  17·4

  27·5

  1987

  9·3

  18·9

  29·3

  1988

  9·4

  19·2

  30·2

  1989

  9·4

  19·3

  30·4

  1990

  10·1

  19·7

  30·7

  1991

  9·3

  18·3

  28·4

  Rates are per 1,000 woman aged 13–15 for tha Under 16s,aged 13–16 for the Under 17s and aged 13–17 for tja Under 18s

  Endangered Animals
  Mr. Nigel Griffiths
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what investigations her Department has carried out into the use of parts of endangered animals by traditional Chinese or far eastern doctors practising in the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Sackville
  The Department has not investigated this aspect of traditional Chinese or far eastern medicine. However, the Medicines Control Agency, which forms part of the Department of Health, is responsible for enforcing medicines legislation within the United Kingdom. It is an offence under the Medicines Act 1968 to import unlicensed medicinal products from China or elsewhere in the far east for sale or supply within the United Kingdom, except where the product has been requested by a registered practitioner on behalf of a particular patient of his. When products are brought to its attention which contravene or appear to contravene the Medicines Act, the agency investigates and takes appropriate action.

  The agency is not presently aware that any unlicensed products, containing parts of endangered animals and for which medicinal claims are made, are being brought to or sold in the United Kingdom.

  Travel Costs
  Mr. Milburn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health, pursuant to her answer of 18 July,Official Report, column 21, what information her Department maintains on the cost of travel by Department of Health and NHS executive staff between Leeds and London.

  Mr. Sackville
  The Department does not record separately the costs of staff travel between Leeds and London.

  Dental Services
  Mrs. Roche
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what percentage of people in Great Britain were registered with dentists in(a) 1979, (b) 1985 and (c) the last year for which figures are available.

  Mr. Sackville
  Registration with a general dental practitioner was not required until October 1990 and information is not available centrally for 1979 and 1985. In May 1994, the latest date available, 57.41 per cent. of the population of Great Britain was registered with a general dental practitioner.

  Violent Crime (Victims)
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) if she will make arrangements to ensure that victims of violent crime who need dental treatment as a result of their injuries are included in the categories of people who are automatically entitled to free dental treatment;

  (2) if she will make arrangements to ensure that victims of violent crime who need help with hospital travel costs as a result of their injuries are included in the categories of people who are automatically entitled to help with travel costs.

  (3) if she will make arrangements to ensure that victims of violent crime who need NHS prescriptions as a result of their injuries are included in the categories of people who are automatically entitled to free prescriptions;
  608
  (4) if she will make arrangements to ensure that victims of violent crime who need a sight test or an NHS voucher for new spectacles as a result of their injuries are included in the categories of people who are automatically entitled to a free sight test or an NHS voucher for new spectacles.

  Mr. Sackville
  We have no plans to do so.

  Child Care
  Ms Ann Coffey
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what regulations govern(a) the placement of a child by a local authority on a fee-paying basis with two adults who are partners, and who are offering care for three children as a private children's home unregistrable under the Children Act 1989 and (b) the placement of a child by a local authority with two adults who are partners and are offering care for three children.

  Mr. Bowis
  Any placement of a child by a local authority under the Children Act is governed by the Arrangements for Placement of Children (General) Regulations 1991, the Review of Children's Cases Regulations 1991, the Representations Procedures (Children) Regulations 1991, the Contact with Children Regulations 1991 and the Definition of Independent Visitors (Children) Regulations 1991. In some circumstances, the Foster Placement (Children) Regulations 1991 also apply.

SOCIAL SECURITY

  Compensation Recovery Unit
  Mr. Worthington
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what target has been set for the compensation recovery unit for its operations for the current year.

  Mr. Hague
  There is no monetary target set for the compensation recovery unit. On the basis of past trends, it is estimated that recoveries for the current financial year will be almost £100 million. The unit has a target to issue certificates of total benefit paid within four weeks in at least 99.5 per cent. of cases it handles.

  Mr. Worthington
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how much of the income of the compensation recovery unit arises from cases involved(a) industrial disease, (b) medical negligence, (c) road traffic injury, (d) industrial injury and (e) other sources.

  Mr. Hague
  The administration of the compensation recovery unit is a matter for Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency. He will write to the hon. Member.

  Letter from Michael Bichard to Mr. Tony Worthington, dated 21 July 1994:
  The Secretary of State for Social Security has asked me to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question asking how much of the income under the Compensation Recovery Scheme arisesfrom industrial disease, medical negligence, road traffic injury, industrial injury and other sources.
  The amounts recovered in the financial year 1993–94 are given below.
  609

  Category

  Amount recovered £ million

  Industrial injury

  39·4

  Road traffic injury

  29·8

  Medical negligence

  4·9

  Industrial disease

  2·0

  Other sources

  5·8

  I hope you find this reply helpful.

  Disability Living Allowance
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security when he expects the disability living allowance unit to fulfil its target of responding to correspondence within 20 days.

  Mr. Hague
  The administration of the disability living allowance unit is a matter for Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency. He will write to the hon. Member.

  Letter from Michael Bichard to Mr. Dafydd Wigley, dated 21 July 1994:
  The Secretary of State for Social Security has asked me to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question asking when he expects the Disability Living Allowance Unit to fulfil its target of responding to correspondence within 20 days.
  I am pleased to say that in the period leading up to August 1993 the Disability Living Allowance Unit (DLAU) consistently achieved a 100% clearance rate for official correspondence within 20 days. As a result of this parameters for responding to such correspondence were tightened and a revised target for the DLAU to reply to all Official Correspondence within 15 days was first set in August 1993. The achievement of this revised target was first accomplished in September 1993. Most recently a level of 100% clearance of official correspondence direct from DLAU was achieved for the month ending 30 June 1994.
  Whilst it is accepted that this revised target has not always been achieved it is set at a level which is believed to be both achievable and representative of a good customer service.
  I hope you find this reply helpful.

  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will issue guidelines to the disability living allowance unit concerning the establishment of target times for completing reviews in relation to appeal procedures on(a) outstanding mobility allowance and (b) current disability living allowance claims.

  Mr. Hague
  The Benefits Agency introduced performance targets for reviews and appeals preparation work in the disability living allowance unit in April 1992. The targets for 1994–95 are shown in the table, together with the latest available performance figures.

  Mobility allowance was replaced by the mobility component of disability living allowance in April 1992 and all awards of that benefit were converted to disability living allowance. There are, therefore, no targets for mobility allowance reviews and appeals.

  Target per cent.

  Performance1 per cent.

  Reviews primary target

  60 in 55 days

  81

  Reviews secondary target

  80 in 75 days

  93

  Appeals primary target

  60 in 30 days

  75

  Appeals secondary target

  90 in 60 days

  90

  1 Figures for the month ending 30 June 1994.

  Blind and Partially-sighted People
  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security (1) what action he will take to encourage blind and partially-sighted persons to claim disability living allowance and attendance allowance following the House of Lords judgement of 21 April; and if he will make a statement;

  (2) what action he will take to encourage blind and partially-sighted persons to request reviews of attendance allowance and disability living allowance claims, where these have been rejected following the House of Lords ruling of 21 April.

  Mr. Hague
  The Department has no plans to initiate any special action beyond the usual information services available. Major administrative disruption could be created in dealing with so many claims and reviews.

  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security (1) how adjudication officers will decide what activities blind and partially-sighted persons should undertake for the purposes of claims for disability living allowance and attendance allowance; and if he will make a statement;

  (2) what provision is made for assistance for blind and partially-sighted people to undertake holidays and read books under guidelines set for disability living allowance and attendance allowance for adjudication officers.

  Mr. Hague
  Blind and partially-sighted people may undertake any activity they wish including holidays and literary pursuits. The independent adjudication authorities have to decide whether it is reasonable to meet the cost of such activities through non means-tested benefits like disability living allowance and attendance allowance.

  Disability and Attendance Allowances
  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what are the(a) maximum, (b) minimum and (c) average times from date of claim to receipt of benefit where (i) there is no review, (ii) there is no appeal and (iii) there is an appeal for (1) disability living allowance and (2) attendance allowance.

  Mr. Hague
  The administration of disability living allowance and attendance allowance are matters for Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency. He will write to the hon. Member.

  Letter from Michael Bichard to Mr. David Hinchliffe, dated 21 July 1994:
  The Secretary of State for Social Security has asked me to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question asking what are (a) maximum. (b) minimum and (c) average times from date of claim to receipt of benefit where (i) there is no review (ii) there is no appeal and (iii) there is an appeal for (1) Disability Living Allowance and (2) Attendance Allowance.
  Data on maximum, minimum and average clearance times is not maintained. Instead performance is measured in terms of X% of cases cleared within Y days. Performance measurement is undertaken for the individual business areas of new claims, reviews and appeals. Actual performance is detailed in Annex I together with requisite targets.
  Information supplied at Annex 1 for appeals only relates to the time taken for a submission to be sent to the Independent Tribunal service (ITS). A commitment has been given in the Charter Standard Statements of both the Disability Living Allowance

  611
  Unit (DLAU) and Attendance Allowance Unit (AAU), where this work is processed to make payment of benefit within 10 working days once the result of a successful appeal is received.
  I hope you find this reply helpful.

  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many persons are currently working on(a) attendance allowance, (b) disability working allowance and (c) disability living allowance within the Benefits Agency.

  Mr. Hague
  The administration of disability living allowance, disability working allowance and attendance allowance is a matter for Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency. He will write to the hon. Member.

  Letter from Michael Bichard to Mr. David Hinchliffe, dated 21 July 1994:
  The Secretary of State for Social Security has asked me to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the number of people currently working on Attendance Allowance (AA), Disability Working Allowance (DWA) and Disability Living Allowance (DLA).
  The table below gives the numbers of staff currently working on DWA, AA and DLA. Disability Benefits centres (DBCs) deal with claims for both DLA and AA. It is not possible to allocate staffing by benefit for these centres as the same staff can work on both benefits.
  A staffing breakdown has been provided for the AA Unit (AAU) and the DLA Unit (DLAU). It should be noted, however, that there are some staff who work in the DLAU who have responsibilities for both benefit areas. Common support areas such as personnel fall into this category.

  Number

  DWA

  75

  AAU

  619

  DLAU

  1,848

  DBCs

  1,450

  I hope you find this reply helpful.

  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what guidance has been issued to Benefits Agency adjudication officers following the House of Lords judgment of 21 April concerning Mr. Eric Mallinson.

  Share of total income received by individuals in top 50 per cent., 40 per cent., 30 per cent., 20 per cent., and 10 per cent., of the United Kingdom income distribution (including self-employed) Before housing costs

  Per cent.

  1979

  1981

  1987

  1988–89

  1990–91

  1991–92

  Share of total income of:

  Top 50

  67

  68

  71

  72

  73

  73

  Top 40

  58

  59

  62

  63

  64

  64

  Top 30

  47

  48

  51

  52

  53

  54

  Top 20

  35

  36

  39

  40

  41

  41

  Top 10

  21

  21

  24

  25

  26

  26

  After housing costs

  Per cent.

  1979

  1981

  1987

  1988–89

  1990–91

  1991–92

  Share of total income of:

  Top 50

  68

  69

  72

  73

  75

  75

  Top 40

  58

  60

  63

  64

  65

  66

  Top 30

  48

  49

  52

  53

  55

  55

  Top 20

  35

  36

  40

  41

  43

  43

  Top 10

  21

  22

  25

  26

  27

  27

  Notes:

  1. The figures are based on net equivalised household income.

  2. The figures are estimates based on the Family Expenditure Survey. 1988–89, 1990–91 and 1991–92 are the respective calendar years combined.
  612
  Mr. Hague
  The Chief Adjudication Officer issued guidance to adjudication officers on 12 May 1994. In addition, the Benefits Agency has issued two bulletins. Copies will be placed in the Library.

  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what are the most recent figures to show the time elapsed from an application for appeal and appeal date in claims for(a) disability living allowance and (b) attendance allowance.

  Mr. Hague
  I am informed by His Honour Judge Thorpe, president of the independent tribunal service, that on disability living allowance the average time from lodgement of an appeal to the hearing is 26 weeks, for attendance allowance the time is 28 weeks.

  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if seeing is treated as a bodily function for the purposes of disability living allowance and attendance allowance claims.

  Mr. Hague
  The Law Lords ruled on 21 April that seeing is treated as a bodily function for the purposes of establishing entitlement to disability living allowance and attendance allowance.

  Below-average Incomes (Statistics)
  Mr. Dewar
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will publish information on the same basis as table A.4 of the households below-average income series giving figures for the 4 and 5 quintiles in 1991–92.

  Mr. Burt
  I will write to the hon. Member shortly.

  Mr. Dewar
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will publish figures on the same basis as table A.3 of the households below-average income series giving figures for the top five deciles for 1979, 1981, 1987, 1988–89, 1990–91, and 1991–92.

  Mr. Burt
  The information is in the tables.
  613
  Mr. Dewar
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will publish information on the same basis as table A.1 of the households below-average income analysis, giving figures for the top five decile groups for(a) 1990–91 to 1991–92 and (b) 1979 to 1991–92.

  Change in real income for top five decile groups, 1990–91 to 1991–92 (including self employed)

  percentage change

  Decile 6 50–60 per cent.

  Decile 7 60–70per cent.

  Decile 8 70–80 per cent.

  Decile 9 80–90 per cent.

  Decile 10 Top 10 per cent.

  BHC

  (0)

  0

  0

  (0)

  (0)

  AHC

  (1)

  0

  (1)

  (1)

  (0)

  Change in real income for top five decile groups, 1990–91 to 1991–92, excluding self-employed

  percentage change

  Decile 6 50–60 per cent.

  Decile 7 60–70per cent.

  Decile 8 70–80 per cent.

  Decile 9 80–90 per cent.

  Decile 10 Top 10 per cent.

  BHC

  (0)

  0

  0

  (1)

  (0)

  AHC

  (1)

  0

  (1)

  (1)

  (1)

  Notes:

  1. Small changes from 1990–91 to 1991–92 are unlikely to be significant.

  2. Figures in brackets are particularly uncertain; the range in which the true change lies is greater than +/-2·5 percentage points and greater than 30 per cent. of the estimate.

  3. Figures are rounded to the nearest whole per cent.

  Independent Living Fund
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what plans he has to publish the departmental memo produced by his Department outlining proposals for the operation of the new independent living fund.

  Mr. Hague
  I am not aware of such a memo.

  Social Security Recipients (Travel Costs)
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will seek to amend current social security legislation allowing those in receipt of social security moneys to have their travel costs reimbursed in full when attending magistrates courts.

  Mr. Hague
  We have no plans to do so.

  Child Benefit
  Mr. Cousins
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what are the target savings for the current and three succeeding financial years to be achieved by a switch of existing and new claimants of child benefit to payment by credit transfer.

  Mr. Burt
  The administration of child benefit is a matter for Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency. He will write to the hon. Member with such information as is available.

  Child benefit

  Year

  Estimated total administration cost1

  Estimated average number of recipients in year

  Number of recipients paid at post office

  Number of recipients paid by automatic credit transfer

  £m

  000s

  000s

  Per cent.

  000s

  Per cent.

  1989–90

  111

  6,735

  5,772

  85·7

  963

  14·3

  1990–91

  107

  6,715

  5,459

  81·3

  1,256

  18·7

  1991–92

  118

  6,760

  5,408

  80·0

  1,352

  20·0

  614
  Mr. Burt
  The information for 1990–91 to 1991–92 is given in the table. All figures are estimates and subject to sampling error.

  The information for 1979 to 1991–92 can be found on page 148 of "Households Below Average Income 1979 to 1991–92", a copy of which is in the Library.

  Letter from Michael Bichard to Mr. Jim Cousins, dated 21 July 1994:
  The Secretary of State for Social Security has asked me to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question asking about the target savings for the current, and three succeeding financial years, to be achieved by a switch of existing and new claimants of child benefit to payment by credit transfer.
  Individual benefits were not set targets for savings to be achieved by transfer to automated credit transfer (ACT). Targets were set in terms of the percentage increase in ACT take-up to be achieved by 1995–96 and for Child Benefit this was 3 per cent.
  ACT take-up was 23–9 per cent. of existing Child Benefit cases and 41.8 per cent. of new claims as at May 1994.
  I hope you find this reply.

  Mr. Cousins
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will publish tables showing the administrative costs of administering child benefit in each of the past five years with an estimate for the current year; if he will set out the administration costs represented by payments to(a) the Post Office and (b) financial institutions for passing over the benefit; what was the total number of recipients each year; and how many recipients received child benefit through (i) post offices and (ii) other financial institutions by credit transfer.

  Mr. Burt
  The available information is in the table. The estimated total administration costs for 1993–94 and 1994–95 are not yet available. Costs for 1993–94 will be published in the 1995 departmental report and those for 1994–95 will be published in the 1996 departmental report.

  The information relating to payments made to the Post Office and other financial institutions is commercial-in-confidence.
  615

  Year

  Estimated total administration cost1

  Estimated average number of recipients in year

  Number of recipients paid at post office

  Number of recipients paid by automatic credit transfer

  £m

  000s

  000s

  Per cent.

  000s

  Per cent.

  1992–93

  136

  6,897

  5,435

  78·8

  1,462

  21·2

  1993–94

  n/a

  6,948

  5,392

  77·6

  1,556

  22·4

  1994–95

  n/a

  7,048

  5,371

  76·2

  1,677

  23·8

  1 Source departmental reports 1991–94

  Child Support Agency
  Mr. Frank Field
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security when he expects to invite claims for maintenance from the lone parents who have been on income support since before April last year following his announcement of the reordering of the Child Support Agency's priorities by which they will not now be dealt with as was originally planned.

  Mr. Burt
  The administration of the Child Support Agency is a matter for Ros Hepplewhite, the chief executive. She will write to the hon. Member.

  Letter from J. T. Hughes to Mr. Frank Field, dated 21 July 1994:
  In her absence, the Chief Executive, Mrs. Hepplewhite has asked me to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question to the Secretary of State for Social Security about the Child Support Agency's take on stategy in relation to parents with care who were already receiving Income Support in April 1993.
  As explained in "The First Two Years", it is planned to reduce the take-on of 100,000 existing income support cases from 1994–95 to 1995–96 in order to allow the Agency to concentrate on clearing its backlog of work. It is envisaged that the 100,000 cases so deferred will be taken on in the first half of 1995–96.
  This deferral will not affect the commitment given by Ministers to provide sympathetic consideration to requests by individual parents who wish their application to be dealt with early. In April and May the Agency accepted 2,400 such requests.
  I hope that this reply is helpful.

  Mr. Bradley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what are the results of the six areas of performance activity monitored by the Child Support Agency during 1993–94, as mentioned in paragraph 6.3 of the agency's business plan for that year.

  Mr. Burt
  The administration of the Child Support Agency is a matter for Ros Hepplewhite, the chief executive. She will write to the hon. Member.

  Letter from J. T. Hughes to Mr. Keith Bradley, dated 21 July 1994:
  In her absence, the Chief Executive, Mrs. Hepplewhite has asked me to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question to the Secretary of State for Social Security about the areas of performance monitored by the Child Support Agency.
  Information on the time taken to clear applications for maintenance was contained on page 5 of the Agency's combined annual report and business plan—the first two years. In the five other areas selected for performance monitoring insufficient cases were processed and insufficient data collected to provide a meaningful indication of the standard of service in these areas.
  The Agency has taken action to improve its information systems and to collect the data required to enable an expanded range of targets to be considered for 1995–96.
  I hope that this reply is helpful.

  Mr. Jonathan Evans
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many deductions from earnings orders 616
  were made by the Child Support Agency in the year 1993–94; and what proportion of these were in relation to interim assessments.

  Mr. Burt
  The administration of the Child Support Agency is a matter for Ros Hepplewhite, the chief executive. She will write to my hon. Friend.

  Letter from J. T. Hughes to Mr. Jonathan Evans dated 21 July 1994:
  In her absence, the Chief Executive, Mrs. Hepplewhite has asked me to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question to the Secretary of State for Social Security about deduction from earnings orders.
  In the year 1993–94, 2,200 deductions from earnings orders were made by the Child Support Agency. I regret that this number cannot be split between those orders issued in respect of interim maintenance assessments and full maintenance assessments. It may help if I explain that until nearly the end of the year there were no powers in the child support legislation that would allow the agency to impose a Deductions from Earnings Order, normally the first course of action where payment is not being made to the parent with care, in cases in which an Interim Maintenance Assessment has been made. Regulations that gave the Agency powers to do this came into effect on 7 February 1994.
  I can confirm, however, that the Agency now gathers such information and figures for the current year will become available in August.
  I hope that this reply is helpful.

  Mr. Bradley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how much of the maintenance with which the Child Support Agency had an involvement was(a) child maintenance assessed by the agency but paid direct between parents, (b) child maintenance assessed and collected by the agency, (c) child maintenance paid where there had been no assessment from the agency and (d) other maintenance payments.

  Mr. Burt
  The administration of the Child Support Agency is a matter for Ros Hepplewhite, the chief executive. She will write to the hon. Member.

  Letter from J. T. Hughes to Mr. Keith Bradley, dated 21 July 1994:
  In her absence, the Chief Executive, Mrs. Hepplewhite has asked me to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question to the Secretary of State for Social Security about the amount of child maintenance collected by the Child Support Agency.
  For the period April 1993 to March 1994 inclusive, maintenance administered by the Agency totalled £312 million. Of this, £1.9 million was assessed by the Agency and paid direct between parents and £13.1 million was assessed and paid through the Agency collection service. The remaining £297 million related to cases administered by the Agency arising from pre-Agency arrangements.
  There were no other maintenance payments collected.
  I hope this reply is helpful.

  Mr. Jonathan Evans
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security (1) what is his estimate of(a) the number

  617
  of absent parents who are in arrears with child support payments and (b) the collective amount of maintenance currently outstanding;

  (2) how many arrears notices were served by the Child Support Agency in its first year of operation;

  (3) how many liability orders were issued by the Child Support Agency in 1993–94.

  Mr. Burt
  The administration of the Child Support Agency is a matter for Ros Hepplewhite, the chief executive. She will write to my hon. Friend.

  Letter from J. T Hughes to Mr. Jonathan Evans, dated 21 July 1994:
  In her absence, the Chief Executive, Mrs. Hepplewhite has asked me to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about arrears notices, liability orders and maintenance outstanding.
  I regret that validated data on accounts in arrears is not currently available. The Child Support Computer System, however, is being upgraded to provide additional information.
  Although the specific information you request about arrears notices is not available, additional information provided by the upgraded system will indicate those cases in which such orders will have been issued.
  It is estimated that about 160 liability orders had been referred to the courts by the end of March 1994.
  I hope this reply is helpful.

  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security (1) how many requests for maintenance review on the grounds of change of circumstances were dealt with by the Child Support Agency in its first year; and how many such requests were still outstanding at year end;

  (2) how many requests for review of a decision made by a child support officer were decided during 1993–94; and how many such decisions were outstanding at year end.

  Mr. Burt
  I refer the hon. Member to the reply given by Ros Hepplewhite, the chief executive of the Child Support Agency, to the hon. Member for East Kilbride (Mr. Ingram) on 17 May 1994 at column 526.

  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what period was covered by the most recent annual reviews of individual child support assessments.

  Mr. Burt
  Individual assessments are reviewed when they have been in force for 52 weeks; the review will be completed as soon as is reasonably practicable after the end of that period.

  Mr. Chidgey
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security (1) what statutory duties of a child support officer he claims a discretion to exercise; and what is the legal basis for this discretion;

  (2) which of his statutory duties a child support officer has discretion to exercise; and what is the legal basis for this discretion.

  Mr. Burt
  The Child Support Act 1991 confers statutory duties on the Secretary of State. It also confers statutory duties on independent, adjudicating officers, the child support officers. Decisions taken by CSOs cannot be varied by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State; CSOs cannot take decisions in those areas which are the responsibility of the Secretary of State.

  The Act specifies where a discretionary power exists and whether the Secretary of State or a CSO should exercise that power. The areas in which the Secretary of State has discretion relate mainly to the requirement on a
  618
  parent with care to authorise the Secretary of State to take action to pursue maintenance and to the collection and enforcement of maintenance, including whether to collect and enforce and the method of collection and enforcement. The areas in which CSOs have discretion are mainly in the making of interim maintenance assessments and reduced benefit directions.

  Reduced Earnings Allowance
  Mr. Bradley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what is the estimated saving to his Department from the proposed changes to reduced earnings allowance from October.

  Mr. Hague
  The information is not available in the form requested. The abolition of reduced earnings allowance in October 1990 was expected to produce savings of around £80 million by 1993–94. This figure will be reduced by the cost of claims now payable because of a defect in the legislation as referred to in the reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Erewash (Mrs. Knight) on 30 June at columns 709–10.

  Crime Victims
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will make it his policy that persons unable to work because of a criminal injury will be able to claim sickness benefit followed by invalidity benefit in the same way as persons who have had an accident at work or contracted an industrial disease, even if they have not paid sufficient, or any, national insurance contributions.

  Mr. Hague
  We have no plans to exempt victims of crime from the contribution conditions for sickness benefit.

  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will make arrangements to ensure that victims of violent crime, who are disabled by their injuries receive disablement benefit, even when they are not employed earners, in the same way as if the injury had been caused by an accident at work.

  Mr. Hague
  The criminal injuries compensation scheme provides payment from public funds to victims of violent crime. The industrial injuries scheme provides benefits for employed earners disabled in the course of their employment. There are no plans to extend the industrial injuries scheme.

  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will make it his policy that victims of crimes of violence who become unemployed as a result of their injuries will receive sufficient credits for national insurance contributions to enable them to receive full unemployment benefit.

  Mr. Burt
  Credits are awarded for each week for which medical evidence of incapacity for work is provided. While such credits will assist a person to qualify for unemployment benefit, that person must also have paid a specified number of contributions as an employed earner, class 1, in the two relevant tax years.

  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will make arrangements to ensure that the full rate of widow's pension is paid to all women widowed as a result of murder or manslaughter regardless of their age.
  619
  Mr. Hague
  We have no plans to do so.

  Social Security Review
  Mr. Bradley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will make a statement on the progress of his Department's review of social security.

  Mr. Hague
  We launched the fundamental review of social security last spring. Last year, we published "The Growth of Social Security", which described recent developments in social security and gave projections of expenditure growth to the end of the century. Subsequently, at the time of the Budget, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State announced a number of major changes concerning incapacity benefit, statutory sick pay, benefits for the unemployed and the future equalisation of state pension age. Changes in the first two areas have now been enacted by Parliament and we plan to introduce legislation on the other areas in due course.

  We are continuing to keep the social security programme under review to ensure that vulnerable people are protected, and that the benefits system does not outstrip the nation's ability to pay for it.

  Ministerial Visits
  Mrs. Roche
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many overseas visits he and each of his Ministers have made between 1 January and 30 June; during how many he, or each of his Ministers, participated in fund-raising activities for the Conservative party; and if he will name the Ministers and the countries in which these activities took place.

  Mr. Lilley
  Two of the Department's Ministers made overseas visits during the period 1 January 1994 to 30 June 1994. The Minister for Social Security and Disabled People made a visit to Norway and the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Bury, North (Mr. Burt) made visits to Luxembourg, twice, and to Canada and the United States of America.

  Fund-raising activities for the Conservative party are not part of our official duties.

  Disability
  Mr. Sheerman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what arrangements exist for benefits to disabled people to continue if they decide to accompany their families to live abroad.

  Mr. Hague
  Sickness benefit, invalidity benefit or severe disablement allowance may be paid for up to the first 26 weeks of a person's absence from the United Kingdom if the absence is temporary, the person has remained incapable of work, and either the person has gone abroad for the specific purpose of receiving treatment for an incapacity which began before the person left this country, or the person was continuously incapable of work for at least six months up to the date before the absence began, or, for SB and IVB only, the incapacity for work is the result of an industrial accident or prescribed disease.

  Attendance allowance or disability living allowance may be paid during a temporary stay abroad for up to six months. It may be paid for longer if the absence is for the specific purpose of getting treatment for the illness or disabling condition.
  620
  Special provisions exist to assist members of the immediate family of forces personnel to receive these benefits overseas.

  Industrial injuries disablement pension may be paid indefinitely to a person who leaves the United Kingdom to reside abroad.

  In addition, the above benefits may be paid indefinitely if the disabled person is going to another European Economic Area country, provided that the EC regulations on social security for migrant workers apply in their case, or if he goes to a country with which we have a social security convention which provides for this.

  Income support cannot be paid abroad. However, special rules may allow disabled people to be paid in respect of the first four weeks of a temporary absence, on their return to the United Kingdom Housing benefit may be paid during a temporary absence not exceeding 52 weeks, again subject to the satisfaction of certain conditions.

  Residence Qualification
  Mr. Clifford Forsythe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many persons, nationals of the Irish Republic, claiming social security benefit in the year 1993–94, would have been ineligible if the not habitually resident regulation had applied to their claim.

  Mr. Burt
  This information is not available.

  Benefit Changes
  Mr. Bradley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will list each change to social security benefits since 1979, with the amount of savings or expenditure for each change(a) at the original figure and (b) uprated to 1994 prices.

  Mr. Hague
  The main developments in social security since the second world war—together with details of expenditure by benefit since 1979—are set out in "The Growth of Social Security" which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State published last year.

  Industrial Injury Benefits
  Mr. Bradley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will list each change to the eligibility conditions for benefits under the industrial injuries scheme since 1979.

  Mr. Hague
  The main changes were:

  1983

  Injury Benefit abolished and the qualifying period for Disablement Benefit reduced from 26 weeks to 15 weeks;

  1986

  Threshold for Disablement Benefit raised to 14 per cent. (except for certain respiratory diseases for which the threshold remained at 1 per cent.);

  Reduced Earnings Allowance introduced to replace Special Hardship Allowance;

  1987

  Unemployability Supplement and Hospital Treatment Allowance abolished;

  1988

  Industrial Death Benefit abolished;

  1989

  Retirement Allowance (RA) introduced to replace Reduced Earnings Allowance (REA) when a person of pension age gives up regular employment;

  1990

  REA and RA abolished from 1 October.

  Automatic Benefit Payments
  Mr. Cousins
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security when he proposes to invite tenders for the supply of automatic benefits cash payments; whether he proposes
  621
  to make changes for the use of automatic benefit payments machines; and whether the location of such machines will be confined to premises which are part of the Post Office Counters network.

  Mr. Hague
  The Benefits Agency is exploring options to involve the private sector in the project to automate the payment of benefits through post offices. This project will involve linking post offices with the Benefits Agency to enable the positive authorisation of benefits at the point of payment, but transactions will still be carried out by post office clerks. We have no plans to instal automatic teller machines in post offices or elsewhere to pay benefits. The question of charges for machines does not therefore apply.

  War Pension Appeals
  Mr. Cousins
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many war pension appeals are currently outstanding in the northern region; and if he will publish a breakdown of the length of time for which these appeals have been outstanding.

  Mr. Hague
  I understand from Mr. Peter Mathison, the chief executive of the War Pensions Agency, that the information is not readily available and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Income Support
  Mr. Bennett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how people aged(a) between 65 and 74, (b) between 75 and 84 and (c) over 85 years of age in receipt of income support live in each of post code areas SK1 to SK8 in the metropolitan borough of Stockport.

  Mr. Burt
  The administration of income support is a matter for Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency. He will write to the hon. Member with such information as is available.

  Letter from Michael Bichard to Mr. Andrew Bennett, dated 21 July 1994:
  The Secretary of State for Social Security has asked me to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question asking about pensioners in particular age groups in specified postal districts of Stockport.
  Unfortunately the information you have requested is not available. We do not routinely collect statistics on Income Support (IS) customers in a way which would enable me to provide the details you require for postal districts SK1 to SK8. The information could only be obtained at disproportionate cost. To obtain the information would entail an examination of every case in the Stockport area; currently 24,709 cases.
  However, I am able to give you the number of Income Support customers aged 60 and over who are in receipt of various pensioner premiums from the Stockport Benefits Agency District. The District covers a larger area than SK1 to SK8. Some customers of 60 years of age and over may be in other statistical groups, such as those in nursing or residential care homes. These customers do not receive the pensioner premiums and will therefore not be included in these figures. The latest information available is for 30 June 1994 and is in the attached appendix.
  I hope you find this reply helpful.
  622

  Persons by age group in receipt of a pensioner premium in Stockport District.

  Number

  Customer or partner 80 or over receiving higher pensioner premium

  2,906

  Customer or partner under 80 receiving higher pensioner premium

  630

  Customer or partner aged 75–79 receiving enhanced pensioner premium

  1,006

  Customer or partner aged 60–74 receiving pensioner premium

  3,023

  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security when he expects benefit cases deferred pending decisions on the Thomas case to be resolved; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Hague
  Benefit cases affected by the ruling of the European Court in the case of Thomas are being considered on an ongoing basis; any arrears due are being awarded and paid.

  Mr. Barnes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many income support claimants are registered at the Chesterfield, Buxton, Ilkeston, Derby (Beckett Street), Derby (London Road) and Sutton Benefits Agency offices as at March 1994; and how many at each of these were(a) income support claimants signing on as unemployed, (b) pensioners, (c) income support claimants receiving a lone parent premium, (d) those receiving a disability premium, (e) those receiving a carer's premium and (f) those receiving a severe disability premium.

  Mr. Burt
  Further to his letter of 21 June 1994 Mr. Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency, has written again to the hon. Member with corrected information.

  Letter from Michael Bichard to Mr. Harry Barnes, dated 21 July 1994:
  I am writing, further to my reply to your recent Parliamentary Question, about the number of income support recipients in each client group in the Derbyshire area (OR. Col. 184–185). Unfortunately, due to a clerical error, some of the information supplied to you in respect of the Buxton, Chesterfield and Ilkeston Benefit Agency offices was inaccurate. I have appended below the corrected information.

  Number

  Buxton Office

  Unemployed cases

  855

  Pensioner premium

  982

  Lone parent premium

  351

  Disability premium

  201

  Chesterfield Office

  Lone parent premium

  2,948

  Disability premium

  1,766

  Ilkeston Office

  Unemployed cases

  5,160

  I hope you find this reply helpful and please accept my apologies for any inconvenience that this error may have caused.

  Mr. McLeish
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will give the number of people claiming income support in Scotland by(a) gender and (b) age for the latest month for which figures are available.
  623
  Mr. Burt
  The information is in the table:

  Income support recipients in Scotland by age and gender

  Age of the claimant

  Men 000s

  Women 000s

  16–19

  16

  15

  20–29

  75

  68

  30–39

  51

  47

  40–49

  36

  26

  50–59

  28

  21

  60–69

  26

  27

  70–79

  11

  43

  80 and above

  11

  52

  All Ages

  255

  297

  Notes:

  1. Source: Income Support Statistics Quarterly Enquiry August 1993.

  2. Figures have been rounded to the nearest thousand.

  3. The figures show the number of recipients at the time of the Enquiry.

  They do not include partners or dependants.

  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what guidance has been issued to adjudication officers for the purpose of interpreting SI, 1994, No. 1004, amending schedule 3 of the Income Support (General) Regulations, if increased housing costs are not reflected in income support levels; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Burt
  A memorandum to the adjudication officers' guide was issued. The contents of the memorandum will be incorporated into the adjudication officers' guide from September 1994.

  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what income support will be payable where a person has joint and several liability for a mortgage, is unmarried and is entitled to benefit where a person with income leaves the mortgaged property and all the housing costs are met by the claimant.

  Mr. Burt
  An income support claimant who has joint and several liability for a mortgage can receive help with all the eligible housing costs for the home if he or she becomes responsible for meeting them all.

  Pension
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what plans he has to increase the pension supplement for 80-year-olds.

  Mr. Hague
  The 25p age addition to state retirement pension paid to people who are over 80 was introduced in 1971. No Government have increased the age addition since its introduction and there are no plans to do so.

  Subject Access Requests
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many subject access requests were received by his Department in the last year; what estimate he has as to the percentage of those requests which were enforced subject access requests; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Hague
  The Department has received a total of 14,059 subject access requests to the year ending 30 June 1994. It is estimated that 90 per cent. of the 13,109 subject access requests made of the national insurance recording system are of the type that have become known as enforced subject access requests. I refer the hon. Member to the answer that I gave him on 18 July at columns 50–51.

  Housing Benefit
  Mr. Bates
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what was the cost to each local authority of its disregard scheme in relation to housing benefit for war disablement and war widow's pensions in the latest year for which figures are available(a) in total and (b) per head of population in that area.

  Mr. Hague
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Mr. Soley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what was the total spent in housing benefit for each year since 1989.

  Mr. Hague
  The information is in the table:

  Housing benefit expenditure

  £ million

  Year

  Number

  1988–89

  3,773

  1989–90

  4,282

  1990–91

  4,942

  1991–92

  5,997

  1992–93

  7,604

  11993–94

  8,821

  1 Estimate.

  Source: Social Security Departmental Report—March 1994.

  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what was the total housing benefit paid in respect of private rented properties in the financial years 1992–93 and 1993–94; and what is the predicted figure for 1994–95.

  Mr. Hague
  The information is in the table:

  Year

  1992–93 outturn

  1993–94 estimated outturn

  1994–95 plans

  £ million

  £ million

  £ million

  Total housing benefit paid in respect of private rented properties

  3,257

  3,817

  4,320

  Source: Social Security Departmental Report—March 1994.

  Mr. McLeish
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will give the number of people claiming housing benefit in Scotland in the first quarter of each year since 1990.

  Mr. Hague
  The information is as follows:

  Thousands

  Date

  Housing benefit recipients

  February 1990

  563

  February 1991

  540

  February 1992

  543

  February 1993

  550

  February 1994

  553

  Data source:

  The housing benefit management information system quarterly caseload count of February in each year.

  Notes:

  1. The figures are rounded to the nearest thousand and are for benefit units. A benefit unit may be a single person or a couple.

  2. Estimates are included for non-responding authorities.
  625
  Mr. Soley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what would be the annual estimated cost of total housing benefit expenditure in 1994–95 if the average rent paid by recipients was £72 per week.

  Mr. Hague
  The estimated outturn for 1994–95 on current rent levels is £10 billion. It is estimated that an average rent of £72 would increase expenditure by a further £10 billion. The latest statistics show that the average local authority rent is £34 and the average private sector rent is £50.1

  1 Source: Local authority quarterly statistical returns February 1994.

  Bronchitis and Emphysema
  Ms Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many applications the Festival Park Benefits Agency office, Stoke on Trent has received in respect of chronic bronchitis and emphysema; and of those, how many have(a) been accepted on first application, (b) been refused, (c) gone to appeal and (d) been accepted following an appeal.

  Mr. Hague
  The administration of industrial injuries disablement benefit is a matter for Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency. He will write to the hon. Member with such information as is available.

  Letter from Michael Bichard to Ms Joan Walley, dated 21 July 1994:
  The Secretary of State for Social Security has asked me to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about how many applications for chronic bronchitis and emphysema the Festival Park Benefits Agency Office, Stoke on Trent has received and of those how many have (a) been accepted on first application, (b) been refused, (c) gone to appeal and (d) been accepted following appeal.
  Firstly I should like to explain that all questions arising on claims for Industrial Injuries Disablement Benefit (IIDB) are decided by independent adjudicating authorities. Lay questions are decided by an Adjudication Officer (AO) and, on appeal, by a Social Security Appeal Tribunal (SSAT). Generally speaking, medical questions are decided first by an Adjudicating Medical Authority (AMA) and, on appeal, by a Medical Appeal Tribunal (MAT). In prescribed disease claims, however, the first of the medical questions, ie. the diagnosis question, my be disallowed by an AO based on medical evidence; in that event, the customer can appeal, first to an AMA and then to a MAT.
  The information you ask for is not available in the format requested. This is because Festival Park Benefits Agency Office is a medical boarding centre for respiratory diseases MBC(RD) and can only provide figures relating to medical questions. The attached table gives statistics which relate to the Benefits Agency's North Staffordshire District which covers Stoke on Trent North, Stoke on Trent South and Newcastle Staffordshire.
  The figures have been obtained from a 100 per cent. count.

  I hope you find this reply helpful.

  Chronic bronchitis and emphysema—North Staffordshire District

  Claims information to 17 July 1994

  Numbers

  Claims received

  1,736

  Disallowed on prescription1

  113

  Disallowed on medical grounds2

  1,241

  Assessed at 14 per cent. or over3

  196

  Number of appeals on prescription

  9

  Succesful

  0

  Unsuccessful

  0

  Number of appeals to Medical Appeal Tribunals

  30

  Successful

  0

  Unsuccesful

  0

  Number, of appeals to Special Medical Boards

  174

  Successful

  11

  Unsuccessful

  117

  626
  1 Claims disallowed on precription are those where the customer has working underground in a coal mine for a period of at least 20 years.

  2 Claims disallowed on medical advice include customers: with insufficient lung function loss;

  where category 1 pneumoconiosis has not been diagnosed and; Where chronic bronchitis and/or emphysema has not been diagnosed.

  3 Claims assessed at 14 per cent. or more will result in an award of benefit.

  Note: Not all claims/appeals received will have been decided by 17 July 1994.

  Ms Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will make it his policy that all X-rays used in evidence in respect of claims from miners for chronic bronchitis and emphysema to be soft and not hard exposure X-rays; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Hague
  The Industrial Injuries Advisory Council recommended the use of the International Labour Organisation classification for chest radiography in deciding claims for chronic bronchitis and emphysema. The ILO classification is used extensively throughout the world and is generally accepted as an appropriate measure of coal dust retention.

  Ms Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will reconsider the criteria for eligibility to industrial injuries disablement benefit arising from chronic bronchitis and emphysema; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Hague
  The Government are advised on the prescription of diseases under the industrial injuries scheme by the Industrial Injuries Advisory Council, an independent body of experts. We accepted and implemented in full the council's recommendations on the terms of prescription of chronic bronchitis and emphysema in coal miners as a disease for which industrial injuries disablement benefit can be paid.

  The council plans to review the situation after a suitable period of operation.

  Benefits (Budgets)
  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what was the total budget for(a) benefit take-up campaigns and (b) benefit fraud detection in the last year for which figures are available.

  Mr. Hague
  The total amount spent on take up campaigns in the 1993–94 financial year was approximately £5·2 million.

  The total amount spent on fraud detection in the 1992–93 financial year was approximately £72 million. Figures for 1993–94 are not yet available.

  Benefits Agency
  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will list all the Benefits Agency offices in England, with the name of the manager, show the number of persons employed and the number of claimants receiving benefit through these offices.

  Mr. Burt
  The administration of the Benefits Agency is a matter for Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive. He will write to the hon. Member with such information as is available.
  627
  Letter from, Michael Bichard to Mr. David Hinchliffe, dated 21 July 1994:
  The Secretary of State for Social Security has asked me to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question asking if he will list all the Benefits Agency offices in England together with the name of the manager, the number of staff employed and the number of persons receiving benefit from each office.

  I have attached at Table 1 information relating to each Benefits Agency District giving each managers name and the

  Annex 1

  Statistics for respective business areas are provided for month ending June 1994. Figures in brackets are year to date (YTD) achievement.

  Business area

  Targets

  Performance Per cent.

  DLA claims—Normal Rules

  Primary—68 per cent, in 30 days

  72 (75)

  Secondary—85 per cent. in 53 days

  94 (95)

  DLA Claims—Special Rules

  80 per cent. in 10 days

  91 (92)

  DLA Reviews

  Primary—60 per cent. in 55 days

  81 (84)

  Secondary—80 per cent, in 75 days

  93 (94)

  DLA Appeals

  Primary—60 per cent. in 30 days

  75 (75)

  Secondary—90 per cent. in 60 days

  90 (91)

  AA Claims—Normal Rules

  Primary—60 per cent. in 35 days

  76 (82)

  Secondary—90 per cent. in 60 days

  97 (97)

  AA Claims—Special Rules

  80 per cent. in 10 days

  89 (86)

  AA Reviews

  Primary—60 per cent. in 61 days

  83 (89)

  Secondary 85 per cent, in 81 days

  95 (97)

  AA Appeals

  Primary—70 per cent. in 28 days

  79 (89)

  Secondary—95 per cent. in 89 days

  100 (99)

  Independent Tribunal Service
  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many persons are employed by the independent tribunal service; and what is their current case load for(a) disability living allowance and (b) attendance allowance appeal cases.

  Mr. Hague
  I am informed that the independent tribunal service employs 868 full-time staff The information regarding caseload is not available in the form requested. The current caseload of the disability appeal tribunals, which hear appeals against disability living allowance and attendance allowance is 13,291.

  D. Gale
  Ms Ruddock
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security, pursuant to his answer of 21 June,Official Report, column 147, on the case of D. Gale, when the president of the independent tribunal service will write to the hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford.

  Mr. Burt
  I understand from the president of the independent tribunal service that a reply was sent to the hon. Member on 20 July.

  Benefits (Young People)
  Mr. Tony Lloyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many 16 and 17-year-olds were in receipt of benefit in each month since January 1988.

  Mr. Burt
  The information requested is not held centrally. However, the table shows the numbers of 16 and 17-year-olds in receipt of income support. This includes both those who are paid under the severe hardship provision and those who have automatic entitlement subject to the normal rules (eg lone parents).
  628
  most recent staff in post figures. At Table 2 I have provided details of the numbers of people receiving benefit in each District. However, it should be noted that a person may be in receipt of more than one benefit at any one time and may therefore appear in these figures more than once.

  These tables have been placed in the Library as one document under the heading Department of Social Security, Benefits Agency, Staff in Post and Numbers Receiving Benefit by Benefits Agency District in England.

  I hope you find this information helpful.

  In addition, 16 and 17-year-olds may be entitled to other benefits including housing benefit, severe disability allowance, child benefit and others.

  Number of 16 and 17-year-olds in receipt of income support

  Aged 16

  Aged 17

  Total

  May 1988

  32,000

  69,000

  101,000

  May 1989

  5,000

  13,000

  18,000

  May 1990

  4,000

  17,000

  21,000

  May 1991

  6,000

  16,000

  22,000

  May 1992

  8,000

  22,000

  30,000

  May 1993

  9000

  26,000

  35,000

  August 1993

  9,000

  27,000

  36,000

  Notes:

  1. All figures have been rounded to the nearest thousand.

  2. Figures have been taken from the Annual Statistical Enquiries from 1988–1992 and from the Quarterly Enquiries of May and August 1993.

  Belling Group
  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what representations he has received regarding the nedd to tighten the regulation of company pension schemes from former employees of the Belling Group; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Hague
  The hon. Member wrote in May expressing concerns about some aspects of the arrangements for winding up the Belling pension plan. This Department has also received letters on the subject. I am confident that our proposals for changes to the legislation affecting occupational pension schemes set out in the White Paper, "Security, Equality, Choice: the Future for Pensions", Cm 2594, will reduce the prospect of similar concerns arising in future.

  Widowers' Benefits
  Ms Ruddock
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will change the DSS regulations to enable a widower to receive exactly the same entitlement to benefits as a widow.

  Mr. Hague
  We have no plans to do so.

  Disallowed Benefit Claims
  Mr. Alan Howarth
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many claims for invalidity benefit and disability premium were disallowed in each quarter since mid-1993; how many appeals against refusal of such benefits were successful and how many unsuccessful; and what the comparable quarterly figures were for the previous two years.

  Mr. Hague
  Information is not available in the form requested, and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. Such information as is available is in the tables.

  Benefits for incapacity: disallowances following reference to the Benefits Agency medical service1

  Quarter ending

  Disallowances2

  30 June 1993

  15,000

  30 September 1993

  21,000

  31 December 1993

  18,000

  1 Includes sickness benefit, invalidity benefit, severe disablement allowance, and people claiming these benefits but receiving only national insurance credits with or without income support.

  2 Based on a 5 per cent. sample of cases referred to the Benefits Agency Medical Service, rounded to the nearest thousand.

  Appeals decided by social security appeal tribunals: invalidity benefit

  Quarter ending

  Appeals head and decided

  Successful

  Unsuccessful

  30 September 1991

  1,107

  570

  537

  31 December 1991

  1,240

  622

  618

  31 March 1992

  1,474

  748

  726

  30 June 1992

  1,311

  681

  630

  30 September 1992

  1,236

  670

  566

  31 December 1992

  1,367

  757

  610

  31 March 1993

  1,436

  782

  654

  30 June 1993

  1,800

  931

  869

  30 September 1993

  2,961

  1,628

  1,333

  31 December 1993

  3,225

  1,865

  1,360

  Rent Allowance
  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many recipients there were of rent allowance housing benefit in private rented properties at 31 March 1992, 31 March 1993 and 31 March 1994; what was the average rent of such properties; and what was the average rent allowance being paid.

  Disability living allowance

  Component and level

  Rate of benefit from inception in April 1992 £

  Current rate of benefit in April 1994 £

  Real terms cash increase from inception to 1994–95 £

  Real terms percentage increase from inception to 1994–95

  Care component

  Higher

  43·35

  45·70

  0·66

  1·5

  Middle

  28·95

  30·55

  0·47

  1·6

  Lower

  11·55

  12·15

  0·15

  1·3

  Mobility component

  630
  Mr. Hague
  The available information for Great Britain is in the table.

  Date

  Rent allowance receipts 1 2Thousands

  Average eligible rent 2£

  Average rent allowance 2£

  May 1992

  1,292

  42·20

  38·39

  May 1993

  1,480

  46·62

  43·13

  February 1994

  1,619

  49·59

  45·99

  Data source:

  The housing benefit management information system quarterly caseload data for May 1992 and 1993 and February 1994, the latest date for which information is available.

  Notes:

  1 The number of recipients includes those in housing association and other privately rented properties, is rounded to the nearest one thousand and relates to benefit units. A benefit unit may be a couple or a single person.

  2 Estimates are included for non-responding authorities.

  Disability Benefits
  Mr. Alfred Morris
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what has been the change, in real terms, in the value of each disability benefit payable to an individual from its inception to the present date or until it was merged into other benefits, as appropriate.

  Mr. Hague
  The information is in the tables.

  Attendance allowance (See note (1))

  Level

  Higher

  Lower

  Date of inception

  6 December 1971

  4 June 1973

  Rate at inception

  £4·80

  £3·60

  Current rate (1994–95 prices)

  £45·70

  £30·55

  Real terms cash increase (1994–95 prices)

  £12·57

  £8·59

  Percentage real terms increase

  38

  39·1

  Mobility allowance (See note (2))

  £

  Date of inception 1 January 1976

  Rate at inception

  5·00

  Rate when last paid in 1991–92

  29·10

  Real terms cash increase from inception to 1991–92

  12·30

  Percentage real terms increase from inception to 1991–92

  63·90

  631

  Component and level

  Rate of benefit from inception in April 1992 £

  Current rate of benefit in April 1994 £

  Real terms cash increase from inception to 1994–95 £

  Real terms percentage increase from inception to 1994–95

  Highest

  30·30

  31·95

  0·47

  1·5

  Lowest

  11·55

  12·15

  0·15

  1·3

  Disability working allowance (see note 3)

  Rate of allowance/ applicable amount from inception in April 1992 (£)

  Current rate of allowance/ applicable amount in April 1994 (£)

  Real increase in rate of allowance/ applicable amount (£)

  Percentage real increase in allowance/applicable amount

  Adult allowance

  Single person

  42·40

  46·05

  1·38

  3·1

  Couple or lone parent

  58·8

  63·75

  1·80

  2·9

  Child allowances

  Age under 11

  10·40

  11·20

  0·24

  2·2

  Age 11–15

  17·25

  18·55

  0·38

  2·1

  Age 16–17

  21·45

  23·05

  0·45

  2·0

  Age 18

  29·90

  32·20

  0·70

  2·2

  Applicable amounts

  Single person

  39·95

  43·00

  0·91

  2·2

  Couple or lone parent

  66·60

  71·70

  1·53

  2·2

  Notes:

  (1) Attendance allowance was replaced from April 1992 by the care component of disability living allowance for people disabled before 65.

  (2) Mobility allowance was replaced from April 1992 by the mobility component of disability living allowance

  (3) Disability working allowance was introduced in April 1992 for people aged 16 or over who are working 16 illness or disability which puts them at a disadvantage in getting a job. The amount of DWA payable depends on income and capital. The table shows the value of the allowances and the applicable amounts in April 1992 and April over the period.

  (4) The retail price index has been used to calculate the real terms cash and percentage increases for attendance disability living allowance. ROSSI (RPI less housing costs) has been used to calculate the corresponding figures for disability working allowance.

  Restart
  Mr. Tony Lloyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many(a) men and (b) women have had their benefit cut for failure to attend a restart course in Great Britain (i) as a whole and (ii) in each region.

  Mr. Burt
  The available information which does not include a breakdown by gender, is in the table.

  Unemployed claimants who received a reduced personal rate of income support following failure to attend or complete a Restart course during the period April 1991 to March 1994

  Area

  Number of reductions

  Anglia

  1,900

  Chilterns

  2,000

  South London and West Sussex

  2,400

  West Country

  1,600

  East London and Essex

  1,300

  South East

  2,000

  Wessex

  3,000

  East Midlands

  1,500

  Midlands and South West

  600

  West Mercia

  1,600

  Wales

  1,500

  Merseyside

  1,400

  Greater Manchester

  2,800

  Lancashire and Cumbria

  3,600

  Tyne Tees

  3,100

  South Yorkshire and Humberside

  2,000

  North and West Yorkshire

  1,800

  Scotland and Northern

  3,200

  North, Central and West Scotland

  1,600

  East of Scotland

  3,100

  632

  Area

  Number of reductions

  TOTAL

  42,000

  Note: Figures are rounded to the nearest 100, and are subject to amendment.

  Household Incomes
  Ms Corston
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security (1) what was the change in real incomes by decile group, 1979 to 1991–92, including the self-employed, before and after housing costs, following table A1 and appendix 10 of the latest households below average income report; and what was the equivalised and unequivalised income per household in each decile group, for households with children;

  (2) what was the average equivalent income at April 1994 prices for (a) the poorest 10 per cent. and (b) the poorest 20 per cent. from the latest housing below average income analysis, before and after housing costs in 1979, 1981, 1987, 1988 to 1989, 1990–91 and 1991–92 for (i) a pensioner couple, (ii) a single pensioner, (iii) a couple with children, (iv) a couple without children, (v) a single adult with children and (vi) a single adult without children;

  (3) how many children were in households living on incomes (a) below the 1979 bottom decile and (b) below 50 per cent. of 1979 average income, in 1979, 1981, 1987, 1988–9, 1990–91 and 1991–92, following tables 11.1 and

  633
  11.5 of the latest households below average income report; and what was the household income in current prices of these two cut off points for each of the years in question.

  (4) what assessment he has made of the effect of a rise in the survey response rate from 70 per cent. to 85 per cent. on the low income data in the latest households below average income report; and what are the latest research results on the relationship between response to Government household income and expenditure surveys and income;

  (5) what would have been the effect on the numbers of children in households living on incomes (a) below the 1979 bottom decile median and (b) below 50 per cent. of 1979 average income, by 1991–92, using the methodology of the latest households below average income report, if child benefit (i) had remained at its 1979 level in real terms and (ii) had been increased relative to household income;

  (6) what was the equivalent monetary value in pound per week at April 1994 prices, following table A2 of the
  634
  latest housing below average income report, in 1979, 1990–91 and 1991–92, before and after housing costs, of the decile means and medians of the two poorest decile groups and the richest decile group, and the total population mean of (a) a single adult, (b) a couple with no children, (c) a couple with one child aged three years, (d) a couple with one child aged 16 years, (e) a couple with two children aged three and eight years, (f) a couple with three children aged three, eight and 11 years and (g) a couple with three children aged 11, 16 and 17 years;

  (7) what was the mean disposable income of each of the family types, as listed in the latest households below average income report, of the lowest decile group, second lowest decile group, and highest decile group in (a) current and (b) April 1994 prices, as ranked according to his Department's convention of equivalised income in 1979, 1988–89 and 1991–92.

  Mr. Burt
  I will write to the hon. Member shortly.

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock (Prayers having been read earlier at the Judicial Sitting by the Lord Bishop of Lichfield.): The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

Royal Assent
The Lord Chancellor (Lord Mackay. of Clashfern): My Lords, I have to notify the House, in accordance with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that the Queen has signified her Royal Assent to the following Acts and Measures:

Appropriation Act,

Land Drainage Act,

Trade Marks Act,

Inshore Fishing (Scotland) Act,

Merchant Shipping (Salvage and Pollution) Act,

Police and Magistrates' Courts Act,

Education Act,

Firearms (Amendment) Act,

Lerwick Harbour Order Confirmation Act,

Croydon Tramlink Act,

London Local Authorities Act,

London Docklands Development Corporation Act,

Hill Samuel Bank and United Dominions Trust Act,

Greater Nottingham Light Rapid Transit Act,

Care of Cathedrals (Supplementary Provisions) Measure,

Church of England (Legal Aid) Measure.

Bridges: Damage by Vehicles
3.2 p.m.
Lord Mountevans Lord Mountevans asked Her Majesty's Government:
What progress has been made in implementing the recommendations of the Department of Transport's 1988 report A Strategy for the Reduction of Bridge Bashing.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Viscount Goschen): My Lords, following the options identified in the 1988 report, we have worked closely with British Rail, Railtrack and other bridge owners, local authorities, bus operators and the haulage industry to monitor and reduce bridge strikes.
Lord Mountevans: My Lords, perhaps I may be the first to congratulate my noble friend on his promotion and to welcome him to that select group of noble Lords who seek to keep transport towards the top of the agenda.
I thank my noble friend for his Answer and sincerely acknowledge the work that the Department of Transport has already done in signposting bridges which are prone
358
to be bashed by road vehicles on trunk roads, and the strong publicity campaign that it has conducted through the DVLA.
However, is my noble friend aware that despite those excellent activities, the number of incidents is not falling? Last year there were 834 incidents, almost 30 involving buses, a factor which seems to be doubly a matter of concern. Indeed, there were no fewer than six incidents last Friday. If one annualizes the figure, it gives a much higher number than 834. When will the Department of Transport continue its good work, first, by making height signs within lorry cabs mandatory by means of an order under the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations; and, secondly, by bringing further pressure on local authorities to signpost the low bridges for which they are responsible?
Viscount Goschen: My Lords, first, I thank my noble friend for his kind words. We take the issue of bridge strikes seriously. That is why we are currently in the process of examining the construction and use regulations to address the problem which my noble friend highlighted. I can give the assurance that we shall continue to encourage local authorities to put up mandatory signs.
Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, perhaps I may join with the noble Lord, Lord Mountevans, in congratulating the noble Viscount on his promotion. I hope that he will enjoy it very much during the dying days of this Government.
Will he encourage his department actually to do something about the construction and use regulations? The working party considered the regulations in 1988. Does the Minister consider that there has been sufficient time to come to some conclusions? When will he be able to indicate that some action will be taken so that Parliament can consider the matter?
Viscount Goschen: My Lords, first, I thank the noble Lord for his slightly double-edged compliments.
As I have already said, we take the issue very seriously. We have made good progress. We have put up a great many automatic signs. We have issued guidance. We have participated in co-operation with a number of other organisations in a publicity campaign. We have co-operated with the AA in producing the "Truckers Atlas" which shows where those low bridges are situated. We have made good progress on the issue.
Lord Tordoff: My Lords, I, too, join in the general congratulatory mood of the House. There is normally a select group of about seven Members of this House who speak on transport. It is good to see a crowded House for such an important question. It is good to see the noble Viscount emerging from the mayhem of last night on the Government Front Bench.
However, he has not convinced us that the Government are taking action on the construction and use regulations, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis. Some actions have been taken. However, the noble Lord, Lord Mountevans, referred to mandatory signs in cabs. Those have not been made mandatory. Nor has the provision of warning lights in cabs, for

359
instance, of skip lorries to ensure that the skip is in its proper place and not above the level of the cab. Can we have further reassurance?
Viscount Goschen: My Lords, again, I am grateful to the noble Lord. I am glad to be the eighth Member of your Lordships' House to speak on transport.
As I stated, in consultation with the haulage industry and bridge owners, we are currently considering ways of amending the construction and use regulations. However, those amendments must be viable and enforceable. With regard to cab signs, the range of vehicles will be as large as possible, beyond the existing categories for which there is a legal requirement. We are also seeking to include provision for automatic warning devices for vehicles with on-board cranes, and such like.

The NHS
3.7 p.m.
Lord Molloy Lord Molloy asked Her Majesty's Government:
What consultations they have had since 1st January 1994 with the British Medical Association, Unison, the Health Visitors Association and the Royal College of Nursing concerning the state of the National Health Service.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Baroness Cumberlege): My Lords, Ministers and officials continue to have a great deal of contact with those organisations on a wide range of issues.
Lord Molloy: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her reply. What she says is acknowledged by those organisations. They are grateful to the department for that contact. By and large, those organisations cover both the main body and the nerve centre of our health service. The BMA is world famous. The Royal College of Nursing has 305,000 nurses as members. Those bodies are concerned about the reduction in numbers of nursing students and the role of nurses in child protection. Unison covers ambulance staff, kitchen staff and others.
Noble Lords: Order!
Lord Molloy: My Lords, those bodies appreciate the department contacting them, but may I have the noble Baroness's assurance that the contact will continue and that their views will be taken seriously by her department?
Baroness Cumberlege: My Lords, I give that assurance.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, will the noble Baroness state why the Government seem to be so reluctant to publicise the duties of patients when asking for night visits from doctors? The Minister must be aware that the matter is causing great problems. Since
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the 1990 contracts, there has been a huge increase in night visits, in particular for those aged between 20 and 35 years for some strange reason.
Baroness Cumberlege: My Lords, yes, the Government are well aware of some of the problems which exist for doctors who have to work at night We have just launched a publicity campaign for general practices entitled "Be Nice, Think Twice", so that people think before they call out their doctor. We are conscious that some doctors find such night visits stressful; and in fact some of the visits are not necessary.
Lord Strabolgi: My Lords, has the noble Baroness seen the report in today's Evening Standard that five professors of world renown, all experts in molecular genetics, have resigned, and that four others are considering their position as a result of the NHS reforms? What have the Government to say about that disturbing state of affairs?
Baroness Cumberlege: My Lords, I have just read the article. I have not had time to look at the individual cases but I know from experience that people often change jobs for a variety of reasons, including family reasons. Scientists with international reputations are few in number. They work all over the world and it is therefore not surprising that two should choose to go abroad. Conversely, many choose to come to the United Kingdom from abroad and the net result is that we attract marginally more than we export. The five scientists who are featured in the story, including the three who are continuing to work in this country, stress that they were going to excellent jobs in which they would be able to carry out work in a spirit of collaboration.
Lord Carter: My Lords, can the Minister tell the House whether in their consultations the Government have asked for the views of the various organisations on the remarks by the chairman of the BMA council on 4th July? He referred to what is happening to the NHS as "the new alien creed" and described the reformed NHS as "a national lottery".
Baroness Cumberlege: My Lords, we are aware that the BMA council does not always support the government line. Indeed, it opposed the introduction of the NHS in 1948. Nevertheless, we are keen to work with the council, and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State always has an open door.
Lord Molloy: My Lords, does the noble Baroness appreciate that the associations that I mentioned are now in contact with the department and they wish to make it clear that they see two major problems? One is administrative and one is medical. They would like to discuss these matters independently of each other because they are problems within the National Health Service but different forms of problem—administrative and medical.
Baroness Cumberlege: My Lords, the National Health Service is going from strength to strength. When one looks at the number of patients treated—and it was Robin Cook who said that the test of the reforms would

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be the number of patients who are treated —we now see that 116 are treated for every 100 who were treated before the reforms on an annual basis. Trusts out-perform other hospitals, and we are also strengthening primary care through GP fund-holding. Waiting times are going down—before the reforms there were 170,000 people waiting for treatment over a year, today there are 74,000.
Lord Stoddard of Swindon: My Lords, if, as the noble Baroness says, the National Health Service is going from strength to strength, why is it that within the service itself there is such disaffection among all grades of staff?
Baroness Cumberlege: My Lords, I refute that comment. I travel around the National Health Service a great deal. I make it a point to go out at least once during every week. When I talk to staff, there are some clearly who are disaffected; one would expect that in a staff of over a million people. But I have to say that there are others who rejoice in the reforms and who are finding GP fund-holding extremely professionally rewarding. Those in trust hospitals have never had the freedoms that they can exercise today and find that through them they are giving better patient care.
Lord Carr of Hadley: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that, although I do not travel round as she does, in my area where I use the National Health Service I find staff morale extremely high, with staff tickled to death at the new changes?
Baroness Cumberlege: Yes, my Lords.

War Crimes Prosecutions
3.13 p.m.
Lord Campbell of Alloway Lord Campbell of Alloway asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether in any of the 10 cases under consideration on 27th June 1994 for prosecution under the War Crimes Act 1991 the authority of the Attorney-General has been sought by the Director of Public Prosecutions to institute proceedings.
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, the Metropolitan Police War Crimes Unit is continuing to investigate some 28 cases and has submitted interim reports in 10 of those to the Crown Prosecution Service. Police inquiries are not yet complete and no decisions can be taken about prosecution until they are. Accordingly, the authority of the Attorney-General has not been sought in any case to institute a prosecution under the War Crimes Act 1991.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, I thank my noble and learned friend for his reply, but the delay involved is perhaps a little disappointing to some of us. We now know, as a result of the Written Answer on 1lth July, that no charges are to be preferred in Scotland on the advice of Crown counsel and, from the press release of 14th July issued by the Director of Public Prosecutions, on the advice of Treasury counsel, no charges are to be preferred in the Falklands affair. In
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those circumstances, may I ask my noble and learned friend whether the advice of Treasury counsel has yet been sought on any of those cases under consideration for prosecution, we were told, on 27th June? If so, why has the advice not already been sent to Mr. Attorney?
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, the situation so far as Scotland is concerned is as described by my noble friend. As regards the cases to which this Answer refers, as I said, the police inquiries are not yet complete. Therefore, the stage at which it is appropriate to have advice on whether there are proper prospects that would justify continuing the matter has not yet arrived. The Question relates to the authority of the Attorney-General and, as I said, unless and until the director has received a completed report from the police, it would not be appropriate for the Attorney-General's consideration to be requested.
Lord Boyd-Carpenter: My Lords, can my noble and learned friend say what is the annual expenditure on these activities?
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, the annual expenditure has varied from year to year over the period for which these activities have lasted. As regards the police activity, it is anticipated that it will probably be less in the next year than in the immediately past year. The investigations are complicated and your Lordships would, I am sure, wish them to be thorough so that the answer that emerges would be one on which all noble Lords would find it possible confidently to rely.
Baroness Mallalieu: My Lords, given that any trial under this Act, if one eventually takes place, is likely to happen at least 50 years after the alleged offence was committed, and given that the trial judge will inevitably be asked by the defence to refuse to allow the trial to proceed because the period of delay presents difficulties in having a fair trial at all, can the noble and learned Lord tell us what is the longest period of delay between the commission of an offence and a successful prosecution of which his department is aware?
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, I would need a very long memory to answer that question properly. I do not know that the precise length of the period between the commission of the offence and the date of the trial is in itself conclusive on the matter. Much depends on the circumstances. One can imagine a conscience coming alive even after quite a long time which would lead to a confession and which in all the circumstances of the case was reasonable and would justify a conviction. Of course, I accept that a length of time between the commission of an alleged offence and the date of the trial may be likely to produce circumstances which require careful handling in any trial. In the course of the speeches on the Bill that preceded this Act, a good deal of attention was paid to that and I believe that the justice system is capable of coping with it. Of course, if injustice were to result from the continuation of the trial, I feel sure that the judge would not allow the trial to proceed. These are

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circumstances which any decision the Attorney-General might eventually have to take in the matter would have to take into account.
Lord Mayhew: My Lords, is the noble and learned Lord aware that more than four years have now passed since the publication of the Hetherington Report, on which the Government relied extensively when the Bill was before this House? If one of these cases is referred to the Attorney-General, can we be assured that he will consult with the authors of the report as to whether they are still of the opinion that proceedings would be justifiable under this Act?
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, I am not sure that it would necessarily be right for the Attorney-General to consult with the authors of the report. That would be a matter for the Attorney-General. I would not think it right for me to seek to restrict those whom he might consult. But I would think it highly likely that, if the Attorney-General's view was required on a particular case, the police investigations to which I referred, which have been fairly extensive, would have superseded in their effect the investigations which Hetherington and Chalmers were able to carry out. After all, one of the purposes of the Act was to create a jurisdiction that would enable a proper police investigation of these matters to be undertaken. I would expect the results of that to supersede the preliminary investigation that Hetherington and Chalmers were able to carry out.
Lord Renton: My Lords, bearing in mind that it has been possible to complete these extensive investigations in Scotland within the three years since Parliament passed the Act, how is it that they are not yet complete and do not appear to be anywhere near complete in England?
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, it is obvious that a number of circumstances could contribute to that. The precise nature of the evidence available might well have an effect, as might the number of cases in question, the need for the police unit—which is a reasonably specialist unit—to take the cases in some kind of order, and so on. All of those factors might contribute.
The Scottish criminal prosecution system has been accustomed to working under very strict limits, as my noble friend knows. It may just be that that also would have an effect on the speed with which these investigations were completed.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, can the noble and learned Lord say what is the age of the youngest person who is under investigation; what is the age of the oldest person under investigation; and how many of those who are under investigation have died during the course of the past four years?
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, I have to say that I do not have those figures in my head. But I imagine that the youngest will be quite old and the most elderly will be even older. But I am not sure that that is altogether relevant to the question of whether they should be prosecuted. After all, I do not think that there is an age exemption related to the prosecution of crime.
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If an elderly person commits a crime, that person will be surely as subject to prosecution as a younger person — although I can quite understand that in some circumstances age may be an extenuating factor.
Lord Hayhoe: My Lords, now that the Deregulation and Contracting Out Bill is making good progress through Parliament, can my noble and learned friend hold out any hope that its provisions will be used to get rid of this unwanted War Crimes Act 1991?
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, certainly not. I do not believe for a moment that the scope of the deregulation Bill—which is, as my noble friend says, making excellent progress; and I wish it speedy progress for the remaining stages—would cover this matter. In any event, Parliament in its wisdom decided that a jurisdiction should be created to enable these investigations to be carried on. I should think that the right thing to do is to seek to complete them in as speedy an order as possible, having regard to the need for the thoroughness to which I referred earlier.
Lord Jenkins of Putney: My Lords, the noble and learned Lord has said that the period between the commission of the crime and the trial is not the only factor to be taken into consideration. It is, nonetheless, a very relevant and interesting factor. Under these circumstances, would he be prepared to consider again the question that was put by my noble friend, and perhaps place in the Library in Written Answer or letter form a reply that would enable the House to consider to what extent it is relevant in the matter that is under review?
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, obviously I am very willing to undertake any investigations that may be necessary, subject to the fact that they would not involve disproportionate cost. For me to search out the records of all the cases that have ever taken place to see what was the longest time between the commission of the offence and the date of the trial would require rather extensive investigation. With all respect to the noble Baroness who asked the question—I think I know exactly why the question was asked—the point is whether the passage of time has so affected the nature of the evidence, and so on, that the interests of justice could not be served by a trial. That is a matter of principle. It does not depend precisely on the length of time in question in any particular case.
Noble Lords: Next Question!
Lord Boardman: My Lords, my noble and learned friend referred to the difficulty in estimating the annual amounts that had been expended. Can he say what is the total expenditure that has been incurred to date on these investigations?
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, my recollection is that to the end of the last financial year the total expenditure was £5.2 million in Scotland and in England and Wales.

Rwanda: Refugee Crisis
3.26 p.m.
Lord Judd Lord Judd asked Her Majesty's Government:
What action they and other members of the United Nations Security Council are taking to safeguard humanitarian relief supplies for Rwandan refugees.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Chalker of Wallasey): My Lords, Security Council Resolutions 918 and 925 of 16th May and 8th June authorised the expansion of UNAMIR and mandated it, inter alia, to provide security and support for the distribution of relief supplies and humanitarian relief operations.
Security Council Resolution 929 of 22nd June authorised member states to undertake a temporary operation to help achieve this objective pending full deployment of UNAMIR.
Lord Judd: My Lords, will the Minister accept, on this day of goodwill, that she enjoys very considerable respect in this House for her integrity and commitment, and that many of us are glad to see her in her place today?
Will the Minister confirm that, in its rapid rate of growth, Rwanda's refugee crisis is almost unprecedented? Will she confirm that already men, women and children are dying in disturbing numbers and that there is a real threat of a grave cholera epidemic? To avoid robbing Peter to pay Paul, what additional funds are being mobilised by the Government from contingency reserves to assist the United Nations High Commission for Refugees and the voluntary agencies? Can the Minister explain the delay in deploying the UN peacekeeping force, which is now desperately needed if the refugees are to feel secure about returning? And how does the role of the French forces relate to that? What contribution will Britain be making?
Noble Lords: Oh!
Lord Judd: My Lords, in view of our role as permanent members of the Security Council, can the Minister say how she sees the future role of the council in this dispute—particularly because of its grave failure at an early stage to take action to save many, many thousands of lives?
Baroness Chalker of Wallasey: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his kind remarks. I, too, am glad to be here today.
I agree with him; it is an unprecedented refugee crisis. We are doing all that we can as a nation and as a donor country to help. Since the crisis began in April we have committed over £11 million bilaterally. I am going, I hope, next week to visit northern Rwanda. After I have done that, I shall make a further announcement about further sums which are available to help refugees where they are displaced, both within the country and outside it.
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I am aware that getting the UNAMIR troops into Rwanda and getting the refugees back from Zaire, Tanzania and all the other places whence they have gone is an absolute priority. We have to work on that priority as hard as we can.
Baroness Williams of Crosby: My Lords, I congratulate the Minister on her intention to go to Rwanda. This country could not be better represented than by her. Having said that, I ask two further questions. First, does she happen to know whether the United States Administration has now definitely decided to assist in the moving of the African troops volunteered for the purpose of keeping order, since without such order no humanitarian aid will get through?
Secondly, can she tell the House whether, when she is in Rwanda, she hopes to speak to the new government in practice —the Patriotic Front—about the possibility of recognising an area of safety to which Rwandan refugees can return from Zaire, where—I am sure that the House will fully agree—there is little chance of being able to rescue them from the starvation that now confronts them?
Baroness Chalker of Wallasey: My Lords, I am not yet aware whether the United States is helping in moving the troops. I can say that other nations have offered various types of help to UNAMIR. We are ready to consider further requests from the UN. We have already provided 50 four-wheel drive trucks. Certainly we believe that it is most important that people come back. I have already had one meeting with the secretary general of the RPF here in London. I understand that, all being well, I shall meet other members of the RPF next week, although maybe not any of the 19 government ministers now sworn in. Certainly, it is very important indeed to get the people back from Zaire and from the other territories to which they have fled.
Lord Avebury: My Lords, will the noble Baroness accept that the best way to get the hundreds of thousands of refugees back from Zaire and elsewhere is by the establishment of peace and a stable government? Has the engine of administration which has been set up by the RPF applied for international recognition? If so, will the noble Baroness and the Government do their best to persuade the international community to recognise it as quickly as possible so that assurances can be given to refugees that they will return in safety?
Secondly, will steps be taken to silence the evil Radio Mille Collines, which is spreading alarm and causing many hundreds of thousands more to flee their homes in unnecessary terror?
Baroness Chalker of Wallasey: My Lords, I am not yet aware whether the RPF government have applied for international recognition. We recognise states rather than governments. We very much hope that that broad-based government will quickly establish order. They tell us that they will involve both Tutsis and Hutus at all levels of government. It is critical for getting people back into Rwanda and giving them places of safety to which they can go.

Deregulation and Contracting Out Bill
3.32 p.m.
Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do now again resolve itself into Committee.— (Lord Strathclyde.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES in the Chair.]
Lord Williams of Elvel Lord Williams of Elvel moved Amendment No. 205A:
After Clause 59, insert the following new clause:
Functions in connection with National Parks
(".—(1) This section applies to any function in connection with a National Park—

(a) which is conferred by or under any enactment; and

(b) which, by virtue of any enactment or rule of law may be exercised by a Minister, office-holder, local authority or an existing authority for a National Park; and

(c) which is not excluded by section 60 below.

(2) If the Secretary of State by order so provides a function to which this section applies may be exercised by a National Park authority constituted in accordance with section (National Park authorities) of this Act.
(3) The Secretary of State shall not make an order under this section in relation to a local authority without first consulting such representatives of local government as he considers appropriate.
(4) The Secretary of State shall not make an order under this section without first consulting—

(a) in the case of a National Park in England, the Countryside Commission, and

(b) in the case of a National Park in Wales, the Countryside Council for Wales.

(5) The Secretary of State shall not make an order under this section in relation to an existing authority in relation to a National Park without first consulting that authority.
(6) Subject to subsection (9) below, an order under this section may provide that a function to which this section applies may be exercised—

(a) either wholly or to such extent as may be specified in the order or authorisation;

(b) either generally or in such cases or areas as may be specified; and

(c) either unconditionally or subject to the fulfilment of such conditions as may be so specified.

(7) An authorisation given by virtue of an order under this section shall be for such period, not exceeding 10 years, as is specified in the authorisation.
(8) For the avoidance of doubt it is hereby declared that the functions referred to in subsection (1) above shall include all functions conferred by or under the planning acts on a planning authority of any description (including the functions of a mineral planning authority under those Acts and under the Planning and Compensation Act 1991).
(9) In making an order under this section in relation to an existing National Park, the Secretary of State shall ensure that the functions contracted out to a National Park authority are not less than the functions carried out by an existing National Parks Committee or National Parks Board.").
The noble Lord said: Before I move this amendment, perhaps I may say how glad I am to see the Chief Whip, the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, who will be responding on the Bill. I should like to congratulate him
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on his new appointment. It may be for the convenience of the Committee if I speak not only to Amendment No. 205A but also to Amendments Nos. 205B to 205G, 208A to 208C, 208D, 215A, 216A, 217A, 217B, 217C and 217D.
In introducing this series of amendments, I emphasise that they are all consequential on the first amendment; in other words, if the first amendment is accepted by the Committee, the other amendments follow as a matter of course. The Committee will be aware that earlier in the Session the National Parks Bill was introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Norrie. That Bill was the result of discussions between the Government, the Council for National Parks and other interested parties. It was designed to fulfil, by means of a Private Member's Bill, the pledge made in the Conservative manifesto of April 1992. It is perhaps worth recalling the exact words in the manifesto:
"Some of our finest landscapes are designated as National Parks. All National Park authorities will become independent Boards, which will make it easier for them to carry out their tasks effectively. The New Forest will be given a statutory status which will give it as great a level of protection as any National Park".
Nothing could be clearer than that. That was a minor piece in the Conservative manifesto which we supported. We still support that view. I am therefore very happy to be able to move a series of amendments which allows the Government to fulfil that passage in their manifesto.
The Bill introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Norrie, was discussed for seven and a half hours in total in your Lordships' House; when it left, it had the approval of the Government. Unfortunately, owing to procedures in another place with which I am not familiar, the Bill was killed. I have used the present Bill—if I may put it that way—to enable the Government to meet the commitment that they sought to meet through the introduction of the Bill brought forward by the noble Lord, Lord Norrie.
As we discussed this matter in this House for seven and a half hours, I do not intend to take the Committee through the details of all the amendments to which I now speak. Nevertheless, there are some differences between the present amendments and the text of the Bill from the noble Lord, Lord Norrie. Perhaps I may highlight them.
In Amendment No. 205A subsection (7) defines a period in which a contract can be let to a National Park authority under the contracting out procedures and puts a term on that contract. The National Park authority does not get unlimited time in which to operate. It would have to respond after 10 years—if that is the appropriate measure; the amendment states "not exceeding 10 years". It would have to report back and Parliament, if necessary, the Government or local authorities would be able to take a view on whether the relevant National Park authority had fulfilled its functions under the contract that had been let.
Subsection (8) of Amendment No. 205A draws attention to the planning functions of a future National Park authority. It has been inserted for the avoidance of doubt. When we considered these amendments, there

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was some doubt as to whether the planning functions would be suitably transferred under the contracting out provisions of the Bill.
Subsection (9) of Amendment No. 205A makes it absolutely plain that if a contract is let under the contracting out section of this Bill and under these amendments:
"the Secretary of State shall ensure that the functions contracted out to a National Park authority are not less than the functions carried out by an existing National Parks Committee or National Parks Board".
In other words, there can be no diminution of the authority that is given at the moment to national parks committees or national parks boards.
In Amendment No. 205B, paragraph (3), there is a further difference between my amendment and the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Norrie. The title "national park"—as I understand it from those with whom I consulted—poses certain problems for the New Forest. It is perfectly clear in the Conservative manifesto, from which I quoted to the Committee, that the New Forest has something of a special status. In giving the New Forest a "statutory" status, it is important to preserve the words "New Forest". On advice, I understand that to be the case, and paragraph (3) of Amendment No. 205B will achieve that.
Moving on from there, in Amendment No. 205E, paragraph (1) makes it perfectly plain that subject to the agreement of the Secretary of State on the budgets— that is normal procedure for national parks—the national parks, under,
"any contract between an authority whose functions are contracted out to a National Park authority … shall … make agreements … with respect to … income or expenses … financial relations between the parties".
In other words, the national park authorities, by contract, will become financially independent once their budget has been agreed through the channels of the Secretary of State and the local authorities responsible.
The only other point I want to make in regard to the detail of the amendments is on Amendment No. 215A, which is the schedule which deals with the constitution and administration of national park authorities. The Committee will be aware—having studied the amendment in detail—that the amendment precisely reproduces the schedules involved in the National Parks Bill which failed in another place. I have not tried and do not intend to try to deviate from what the Government approved when the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Norrie, was before your Lordships. I could have tried but decided that it was right to accept the government approved form and not to deviate from it.
Those are the details of the amendments. But I emphasise to the Committee that I am trying to give to national parks the status not only that was promised in the Conservative manifesto in 1992; not only that was approved by the Government in your Lordships' House when the noble Lord, Lord Norrie, moved his Bill; but also it is a cross-party agreement. There is no difference between the parties on this matter. The mechanism is different. The mechanism comes under contracting out. But it seems to me that contracting out in this manner
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gives all sorts of advantages that were not available—I am advised on this by those who know more than I— under the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Norrie.
I hope that the Government will accept the amendments. As always, they are offered to be helpful to the Government. If a government make a commitment in a manifesto, it should be honoured. This is a perfectly sensible way of honouring that commitment. If Members opposite do not wish to honour their party's manifesto, that is their problem. But I am sure that when they look at the provisions they will see that the amendments achieve all the objectives of the Conservative manifesto, which we support in this instance, and also introduce new elements which—I am advised by those who know more than I—will be beneficial to the national parks. Some of our finest landscapes are designated as national parks. We want them to be independent boards; the Government want them to be independent boards; the Conservative Party wanted them to be independent boards. I beg to move.
3.45 p.m.
Lord Hunt: My Lords, the amendments moved by the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Elvel, are welcome to those of us who sit on these Benches, and if I may presume to say so, are particularly welcome to me. The Government's promise to upgrade the status of all those national park authorities which are committees of county councils to the status of boards as enjoyed by the Peak park and the Lake District park, has been lingering on throughout this Session of our Parliament. It is clear that it will not come to fruition without the inclusion of the amendments in the Bill.
In my view, the position has become urgent because of impending changes to the form of local government. As the noble Lord made clear, the amendments—apart from the new amendments to which he drew our attention—passed without any difficulty through your Lordships' House and only failed in another place through procedures and lack of time. I want to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Williams, on his ingenious strategy, tactic or device—whichever word is appropriate—in seeking to include the whole of the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Norrie, virtually unchanged, in this deregulation Bill. I support the amendment.
Lord Derwent: I too want to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Williams, on bringing forward this matter in this form. I want to be practical. It is an amendment designed to speed up whatever legislation the Government may have in mind to bring forward. I want to explain briefly, having spent a great deal of time talking to national park officers in recent weeks, why time is now of the essence.
First, the staff of national parks are currently spending a great deal of time on practical housekeeping to allow for the transition to free-standing authorities, which is obviously necessary. The problem is that that takes them away from their normal work and is almost impossible to carry out except against a timetable. They must know whether they are likely to become a free-standing national park this year or in five years' time; before they

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can do any serious work. Therefore national park officers tell me that their day-to-day work is being greatly impeded by the uncertainty on timing.
The second point to which the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, referred relates to the question of local government reorganisation. I want to explain why, in practical terms, that is important. If local government reorganisation for some counties overtakes any national park legislation, then it will be necessary for the existing national parks to be handed over to the new authorities. However, the new—in many cases unitary—authorities will know that they will only be dealing with national park affairs for a limited period, because the Government promised legislation. I put it to the Committee that even the best councillors on the new authorities will put the matter low on their priorities because they will know that, though they may be on the national park committee today, in six months they may be off it.
The new unitary authorities, or whatever they may be, will be able to, or in practice will, virtually ignore their responsibilities for the national parks. The only point in favour of the noble Lord's amendments is the question of speed. If the Government were willing to say that they intend to introduce their own Bill early in the next Session, the need for the amendments would disappear. However, I would draw the Committee's attention to the very disappointing formula used by the noble Earl, Lord Arran, in answer to a Question on 23rd June when he merely said that the Government would introduce legislation as soon as possible at the appropriate time, which suggests that they do not consider the present the appropriate time. I therefore support the amendment.
Viscount Addison: I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Williams, for tabling these amendments and for allowing us once again the opportunity to discuss the important matter of national park legislation. The noble Lord, Lord Williams, has already referred to the National Parks Bill, steered through the House so successfully by my noble friend Lord Norrie. My noble friend would have liked to be here to speak today but unfortunately he is unavoidably detained by a long-standing commitment. My noble friend would echo and emphasise the urgent need for legislation for national parks and would agree that the next Queen's Speech would not be a moment too soon to introduce it and would be a popular move widely welcomed on all sides of the House.
The amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Williams, seek to give effect to the measures set out in the Bill of my noble friend Lord Norrie within the limitations imposed by the context of the Deregulation and Contracting Out Bill. The Norrie Bill sought to fulfil the recommendations of the National Parks Review Panel and the Government's manifesto commitment to set up free-standing authorities for all the national parks. As a comprehensive stand-alone piece of legislation, it was perfectly suited to that purpose. We are now in the position where the Government have said that they will introduce not only measures to set up the new national park authorities but also the revision of the national park statutory purposes. They are also considering a duty on
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Ministers to further national park purposes. That is the comprehensive legislation which the national parks need. Time must be found in the next Session.
Local government reorganisation in England continues to press ahead without provision being made for new authorities to run the national parks. The future of these beautiful areas is being left to uncertainty, and that will not do. The 100 million people who visit the parks each year and the quarter of a million who live in them expect legislation to provide these areas with the best level of administration and protection. The onus is now on the Government to act. The great concern for the national parks from all sides of the Committee is quite clear.
Lord Dixon-Smith: We must all admire both the skill and indeed the craft of the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Elvel, in bringing forward this series of amendments. I regret to say that I do not have any idea what response my noble friend on the Front Bench will give to the amendments. I find it strange that we try to insert something completely novel into the Bill in this way. It is not as though there is a breakdown in the administration of the national parks as they exist at the present time. Local government is looking after them very responsibly. They are adequately funded and that work will continue. As to the national parks officers themselves finding a bit of a problem because they are indulging themselves already with transitional work, that is their decision. If that is taking them away from the routine work to which they ought properly to be devoting their attention, again there is an answer, and it lies within their own hands and within their own power. So there is not perhaps quite the urgency on that score that has been made out.
I accept that the pressure as a result of the work of the Local Government Commission and indeed as a result of the Local Government (Wales) Bill imposes a different imperative, but I am not sure that it is such a severe imperative as to require an insertion into this Bill. I shall look forward to hearing what is said from the Front Bench.
Finally, if there is a pretence that this is a contracting-out operation, I have always understood there to be an element of competition in contracting out. For the life of me I cannot see where the competition is involved in this exercise. It looks more to me as though it is a fix.
Lord Strathclyde: I join the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and other noble Lords in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Williams, on bringing forward these amendments in the way that he has. I should also like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Williams, for his kind words to me in his opening remarks. Since, after completing this Committee stage, I shall be effectively gagged—
Noble Lords: Oh!
Lord Strathclyde: —it is an opportunity for me to indulge myself now.
What is possibly not well known about the noble Lord, Lord Williams, is his undoubted concern for the countryside and the landscape. I remember well as a Minister in the Department of the Environment some

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years ago the noble Lord coming to me with an all-party delegation to discuss this matter. He has demonstrated characteristic ingenuity in seeking to reintroduce into this Bill some aspects of the proposals made earlier this Session by my noble friend Lord Norrie for a National Parks Bill which the Government supported. The noble Lord is also at the sharp end of legislators continuing the fashion of this Session of Parliament of tacking on to other government Bills Private Members' Bills which have otherwise failed; for instance, those on tobacco, disability and now national parks.
I have to point out with some disappointment that the amendments before the Committee sit uncomfortably in Part II of the Bill and indeed in the Bill at all. As my noble friend said a moment ago, it is hard to understand how the amendments would contribute to the policy of exposing public services to competition so as to achieve efficiency savings. By creating new public sector organisations the amendments are certainly not deregulatory in effect. I put it to the noble Lord and indeed to the Committee that it may not be the most appropriate Bill to deal with this question.
The amendments do not offer a terribly workable approach to securing the future of the national parks. The noble Lord, Lord Williams, is right when he says that he has followed my noble friend's Bill. But in seeking to shoehorn the provisions of the earlier Bill into these amendments to Part II of the Bill, I have to say that the noble Lord is able to propose only an emasculated version of the earlier proposals.
Like the noble Lord, Lord Williams, I shall not go into any great detail. However, we have problems with the fact that the proposals do not provide a permanent system for the administration of the parks. They propose a 10-year time limit for the new authorities. We do not believe that the new authorities should be time limited and of course the Government's intention is that the new arrangements for the national parks should be sound, secure and above all permanent. I hope that that will give a great deal of comfort to my noble friends Lord Derwent and Lord Addison.
Secondly, it is not clear in the provisions proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Williams, how the new authorities would be guaranteed independent finance. Subsection (3) (b) of the new clause on financial arrangements is unworkable since it could well be impossible to implement and could lead to arguments about what an authority would have spent on a function it no longer has, especially after some years had elapsed. It is not clear where the Secretary of State's grant would fit into the scheme or the status of what could emerge as a three-way relationship between local authorities, the Secretary of State and the new bodies. If functions are supposed to have been contracted out by a local authority, why does the Secretary of State have to make additional grant payments to the national park authority in respect of the contracted-out functions? If there are in effect two parties to the "contract" with the national parks authorities, the local authority and the Secretary of State, who is responsible for ensuring that the services are being delivered satisfactorily? There are no provisions in the amendments for winding up the
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existing authorities, which would have the effect of leaving us with two sets of organisations running the parks. That is by way of criticism of the amendments.
But my purpose today is not to criticise but to thank: the noble Lord, Lord Williams. I am grateful to him for reminding the Committee of our manifesto commitments. I only wish that he would be equally obliging in dispatching the rest of them. The Government are strongly committed to the objective of establishing independent national park authorities and to taking forward the other commitments to legislation which were set out in our 1992 policy statement on the future of the national parks.
I can confirm to the Committee that it is the Government's very firm intention to introduce national parks legislation. We intend to do so as soon as there is a suitable opportunity. At this stage I cannot go further than that. It is a firm guarantee in principle. It is certainly one of the commitments that we made in our manifesto. I am very pleased to have had the opportunity of repeating the commitments which have been made in the past and of listening to this subject being aired again in the Chamber. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Williams, will accept the criticisms which I have made of these amendments and at the same time accept my gratitude for proposing them in the way he did.
4 p.m.
Lord Williams of Elvel: I am very grateful to those noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. I am also very grateful for the support of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, who is very experienced in this area, and indeed the noble Viscount, Lord Addison. I am sure that if the noble Lord, Lord Norrie, had been here he would have added his voice. The noble Lord, Lord Derwent, quite rightly pointed out that time is of the essence. I take issue with the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, who I do not believe quite understood the problem which the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, was trying to explain about the importance, under the shadow of legislation and local government reorganisation—indeed, we have had this situation as regards Wales—of something being done quite quickly.
The noble Lords, Lord Dixon-Smith and Lord Strathclyde, accused me of "tacking something on". That was the expression which the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, used. The Committee is presented with a Bill which has a Long Title. Amendments, from whatever side of the Committee, may come and they will be judged by this Chamber in the end to be either relevant to the Bill or not. As the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, will be aware, I have taken advice which is that the amendments I am moving are relevant to the Bill. In the interpretation clause, which is Clause 68, there is no definition of contracting out. There is nothing which says that contracting out should increase competition in any way. If there is no definition of contracting out, it is perfectly proper for these matters to be put into the Bill if the Committee seeks to do so or if your Lordships seek to do so at a later stage.
As regards the detailed criticisms of my amendments by the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, I personally—and I speak for these Benches too—feel that it is not

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necessarily desirable to have a permanent system of national parks authorities. That may be something which we could discuss. I am not necessarily hooked on the principle that there should be a review after 10 years of how the authorities have got on, but that would be perfectly reasonable. But if the Minister says that he would like these contracts to be permanent, there is nothing to stop them being permanent. If that is what the Government wish, that is what I would accept.
As regards independent finance, Members of the Committee will be aware that I have gone to a great deal of trouble to make sure that the new national parks authorities which I am proposing should be set up under the amendments are financially independent. It may be that my drafting is not as good as the Government would like, but that is a matter which we can settle between us before we come to the next stage of the Bill.
As to there being no winding up of the existing authorities, the comment of the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, is very pertinent. The existing authorities could easily be changed as a result of local government reorganisation. As far as Wales is concerned, they will be changed when the Local Government (Wales) Bill receives Royal Assent. What I am suggesting is much more stable in terms of a contract to a new authority than what the Government were originally suggesting in terms of the Bill introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Norrie.
Since I referred to the manifesto of the Conservative Party, the Minister invited me to help him with other aspects of it. I am delighted to do so. I can help him on common land and on hedgerows. I shall be very happy to help him with the implementation of Conservative manifestos not just of 1992 but of 1987 as well. Those parts of the Conservative manifesto which we agree will receive my full co-operation in implementing them in your Lordships' House.
The noble Lord then said that the Government were committed to legislation on national parks. That is true, and it is in the manifesto. But we do not know when the Government will produce legislation on that subject. That is the point which the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, made. It is a matter of urgency.
I understand from press releases from the Department of the Environment which I find piled on my desk each morning—and I am grateful for the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde—that Mr. Gummer has announced that he will be circulating a draft Bill on the Environmental Protection Agency before the end of the Recess. If that is the case, what is to prevent the Department of the Environment circulating a draft Bill on national parks before the end of the Recess? I perfectly understand that the convention is that no Minister shall pre-empt what will be in the gracious Speech. Nevertheless, it appears that draft Bills are being circulated, and the clear intention is to legislate. If the noble Lord can tell me that in the next Session
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the Government will legislate on national parks, we shall have advanced a little further. I wait to hear what the noble Lord has to say.
Lord Strathclyde: In replying to the noble Lord, Lord Williams, I took some care with the form of words that I used. I said that it was our firm intention to legislate in this matter. I used that form of words because it is not a convention or good practice to seek to pre-empt the gracious Speech. Therefore, I can go no further than what I have already said. If there is a draft Bill to be circulated, that is a matter for the Secretary of State for the Environment. Again, since that event has not yet occurred, I cannot comment on whether that Bill may include some or all of the amendments and objectives of the noble Lord, Lord Williams. I do not think that anything can be furthered by asking me to expand on what I have said. The form of words is a fixed form of words and there is not a great deal more that I can say.
Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank: Before the Minister sits down, he referred to a convention that details of the Queen's Speech should not be revealed in advance; but that is a slightly false convention. As the Minister will well recall, a very full statement of intention was given at the Conservative Party conference last year by the Home Secretary about legislation that was planned for the parliamentary session which is now coming to an end. I know of precedents where a Minister would say that subject to final decisions on the Queen's Speech, it is the hope of Her Majesty's Government to introduce a Bill to such and such effect in the next Session of Parliament. I am sure that that has been said before. If the Minister says that now, it would do a great deal to relieve the anxiety of the Committee. If the Minister fails to say that, I think that it is a pretty plain indication of the fact that in the discussions on the Queen's Speech, which, as he knows, have already taken place, no provision has been made for such a Bill.
Lord Strathclyde: We are still some way off the final decisions that have to be taken before the gracious Speech is finalised; and between now and then, we have various party conferences to go through. Furthermore, I do not think that the convention of not pre-empting the Queen's Speech was broken by the Home Secretary last year. I do not wish to sound overly pedantic, but I really do not think that I can help the Committee very much more than I have already done. I had hoped by coming here today that the Committee would see that the Government's position was helpful.
Lord Renton: I am very much impressed by what my noble friend has just said about the Queen's Speech. It is a very well established convention that Ministers do not announce in advance what might or might not be in the Queen's Speech even when firm decisions about it have been taken.
Lord Strathclyde: I am immensely grateful to my noble friend Lord Renton. Given his vast experience and

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knowledge of dealing with legislation over a great many years, I think that his advice should be taken by the Committee.
Lord Tordoff: In that case, can we have an assurance from the Minister one way or another? Is it the intention to announce these matters at the Conservative Party conference or not?
Lord Strathclyde: No, I shall certainly not be making any announcements at the Conservative Party conference.
Lord Williams of Elvel: I am sorry that the Minister cannot commit his right honourable friend to a speech at the Tory Party conference. I suspect that the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank, is right in what he said about the Home Secretary's firm indications that, subject to this, that or the other, legislation would be introduced. I very much hope that the Minister will be able to go a little further when we come to the next stage of the Bill because, as the noble Lord will undoubtedly be aware, although he will be "gagged" at that point, to use his own expression, I understand that we shall be meeting again on this Bill on Report during the Conservative Party conference. I shall make sure that we shall get one answer or another out of the Minister at that time. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 205B to 205F not moved.]
Clause 60 [Functions excluded from sections 58 and 59]:
[Amendment No. 205G not moved.]
4.15 p.m.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham Baroness Hollis of Heigham moved Amendment No. 205H:
Page 54, line 33, at end insert:
("( ) its exercise includes the exercise of a discretion; or").
The noble Baroness said: In moving Amendment No. 205H, I should like to speak also to Amendments Nos. 205K to 205M which stand in the names of my noble friend Lord Williams and myself.
In this Bill the Government are right to exclude certain local authority functions from voluntary competitive tendering in Clause 60(1). I refer, for example, to matters affecting the liberty of the individual, the right of entry to someone's home and the power to make subordinate legislation. In this amendment, we are seeking to add another category of activity which should also be excluded from VCT—that is, those activities which involve a substantial element of discretion. I refer to where local people have elected councillors and the staff whom they employ to deal with confidential and sensitive issues such as resource allocation, prioritising need and making judgments. All those are activities involving discretion which we believe should not be contracted out to private contractors who have no such corporate view, no such culture, no such training, no such responsibility and no such accountability for them. We argue that those functions of discretion are at the core of local authority activity and should not be off-loaded. Local authorities cannot and must not contract out their judgment.
Therefore, this is a probing amendment to ascertain the extent to which we and the Government share a common understanding of what may or may not be removed from direct local authority in-house decision-making. What we are not talking about in this amendment is what I may describe as routine or mechanical functions, such as the payment of salaries and wages, information technology, most superannuation administration and internal audit. All of those functions have been, and will continue to be, contracted out if the local authority so decides. The issuing of rent books and other such housing matters should be treated similarly.
However, it is when we move on to those administrative functions which involve a mixture of the routine and the discretionary that we begin to have problems. The Government may believe that deciding whether somebody is entitled to a single person discount on their council tax is a mechanical matter and should be contracted out. However, deciding whether someone is entitled to a council tax rebate involves handling confidential material about income, the circumstances of non-dependent adults, and joint and several liability. Situations where judgments have to be made about the sexual and economic dependency of one adult upon another to determine whether or not one is dealing with a household are sensitive matters that should not be contracted out.
Similarly, the collection of housing or council tax arrears may sound routine and mechanical until one considers that debt collection involves options. It may involve attachment of earnings, top slicing for those on income support, or the introduction of bailiffs. It may mean having recourse to eviction. Again, sensitive knowledge of the family situation is needed to check whether it is getting its full entitlement to benefit. The possibility of debt counselling should also be considered. It cannot be right to suggest that private contractors are appropriate to handle such matters, particularly where that may involve negotiating with the Benefits Agency.
Over and beyond that are those functions which we would all accept as involving significant discretion. Some are mentioned in the subsequent amendments, Amendments Nos. 205K to 205M. They include development control, the enforcement of building regulations, listed building consent, traffic regulations, noise abatement notices, the inspection and prosecution of food premises, health and safety at work, consumer protection legislation, school admissions, assessing special educational needs, the granting of special discretionary awards for education, giving clothing grants, inspecting and registering residential homes, drawing up housing investment programmes, inspecting private rented accommodation for overcrowding, and notices of fitness. All of those are core local authority activities involving discretion which we believe cannot be contracted out.
So what do those functions of discretion have in common? First, they involve exercising a judgment between individuals' competing claims to scarce resources such as two families claiming a discretionary grant for a child in higher education. That cannot be privatised. Secondly, we believe that such functions may involve prosecution; functions significantly affecting a

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person's business or livelihood—for example, the licensing of taxis, and the inspection of restaurants, and perhaps closing them down—which may lay an authority open to judicial review. Such a power of prosecution cannot now be contracted out.
Thirdly, they are functions, as I hope is clear, which often involve a corporate review of policy—for example, housing investment programmes—over which, again, a contractor involved in a single service or quango, cannot have an overview. Fourthly, such functions may be involved with the development of land or planning consents, giving rise to high financial considerations bringing high financial rewards.
Officers and members of a local authority operate, rightly, within tight codes of probity. A declaration of interest, which when declared, unlike both Houses of Parliament, means that a member may neither speak nor vote on such an issue. But a private organisation making such decisions, and giving itself and its friends planning permission, can be an invitation to corruption.
Finally, those are all functions in which a local authority may act also as guardian of the public interest. Planning is an obvious function: trying to adjudicate between where a road should go and the rights and views of private residents. No contractor can act as a guardian of public interest. For a start, most of them do not know what the public interest is. If they do, it is usually in their private interest to subvert it.
I repeat, local authorities cannot contract out their judgment or the exercise of discretion. If they think that they can, they should not be elected to local government in the first place. I hope that the Minister shares our view, and if he indicates that, we may be able to come back on Report with an amendment which has all-party support. I beg to move.
Lord Strathclyde: I thank the noble Baroness for moving this important amendment. Clause 60 excludes from the scope of the order-making powers in Clauses 58 and 59 functions whose exercise would necessarily interfere with or affect the liberty of an individual or—
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: Forgive me, that is an amendment that I did not move.
Lord Strathclyde: Which amendment did the noble Baroness not move?
Lord Peston: Perhaps I may help. I assume that the amendment relating to Clause 60 is Amendment No. 205J which we have not yet reached.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: I was speaking to Amendment No. 205H.
Lord Peston: I am looking forward to Amendment No. 205J, but I think that we should do things in order.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: Perhaps I may help the Committee. I was speaking to Amendment No. 205H which inserts:
"its exercise includes the exercise of a discretion".
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I spoke also to Amendments Nos. 205K to 205M which are subsets, as it were, of Amendment No. 205H. Given the pressure on time, I was not proposing to move Amendment No. 205J.
Lord Strathclyde: I am grateful to the noble Baroness. Amendments Nos. 205H to 205M are on the grouping list. I am sorry if there is some confusion. I am dealing with page 54, line 33, which I believe comes under Clause 60.
Lord Peston: So far, so good.
Lord Strathclyde: I shall try to explain how I see the amendments in the context of the clause to which they relate. I do not want to go into any great detail, but the noble Baroness raised some important points, about some of which she is possibly right, and has understood what we are trying to do. I think I have explained what Clause 60 is all about. Members opposite know what it is all about so I shall just say that the clause has its place in the Bill because it is the Government's view that if a function affects fundamental freedom of the citizen of the sort detailed in subsection (1) and it is proposed to make it possible to contract out that function, then as a general rule it would not be appropriate to use a general order-making power alone to achieve that. But that is not to say that such functions should not be exposed to competition.
The statute book already provides many examples which allow contractors to be used in carrying out functions of that type. For example, the Customs and Excise Commissioners already have the power to appoint people who are not civil servants. Use of order-making powers for a similar purpose is also precedented in the Consumer Protection Act 1987. Here Section 27(1) places a duty of enforcement on the local weights and measures authority, but Section 27(2) enables the Secretary of State to make an order transferring that duty to "another person" who agrees to the transfer.
The point is that there is already a great deal of precedent for dealing with the kind of problems raised by the noble Baroness. The amendments would preclude the possibility of using the order-making powers in respect of various functions, particularly those involving discretion. The noble Baroness mentioned impartiality and probity in the exercise of discretion by contractors. I can assure the Committee that the Government recognise that as a legitimate anxiety. Where there is a statutory discretion available, then the exercise of that discretion in reaching a decision must be, and must be seen to be, free from any real danger of bias. Otherwise, the rule in law against bias, and the appearance of bias, will render the decision liable to challenge and reversal in the courts.
That would require Ministers, local authorities and office holders to consider very carefully before making any decision to introduce competition to the delivery of a decision-making function. They would have to take appropriate steps to ensure a professional approach to the task and that any sources of conflict could be eliminated. If that cannot be achieved in any given case, then that decision-making function could not properly be exercised by contractors.

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That may mean that in some circumstances some functions might not be suitable for contracting out. We have always accepted that. But each case must be treated on its own merits, taking all relevant factors into account. Even where decision making itself is not contracted out, it may be possible to consider market testing the administrative support element of such functions, although that too must be treated with considerable care. It would therefore be wrong to exclude such functions on the face of the Bill.
Furthermore, the Minister, the office holder or the local authority would remain responsible for the process in the same way as they are at present as a result of the provisions in Clause 61. That includes a responsibility to ensure impartiality and due probity in the exercise of the function. For those reasons, I hope that the noble Baroness will be reassured that the powers of the Bill would not be used to undermine impartiality and probity in the exercise of functions which affect the interests of citizens.
As to Amendment No. 205K, which was spoken to by the noble Baroness, the scope for discretion in the function of determining entitlement to council tax and housing benefits, for example, forms a small part of the benefit determination function. Generally speaking, mere are set criteria by which individuals qualify for those benefits and there is little or no discretion available which affects the determination of individual entitlements. I am unclear as to what is meant by major educational awards; but I accept the broad thrust of what the noble Baroness said.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: Discretionary awards.
Lord Strathclyde: The Government have no plans to make use of the order-making powers in the area mentioned, though should local authorities come forward with proposals for using contractors in those and other areas, we should want to consider them. For that reason, it would be difficult for me to accept the amendments proposed by the noble Baroness.
Amendment No. 205L would prevent the use of contractors to undertake any licensing function. I suspect mat in practice the interpretation of this phrase would mean that no licensing function could be considered as a candidate for competition and possible exercise by duly authorised contractors.
Impartiality is of course vital in the exercise of a decision-making function where the decisions taken could affect the interests of third parties, be they individuals or companies, and the Government would recognise that in some circumstances some licensing functions could not be undertaken by contractors. However, this does not mean that no such function can be. Each case must be treated on its own merits. Even where decision making itself is not contracted out the same point
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applies about the administrative support element. I assure the Committee that the Bill would not and could not be used to undermine impartiality and probity in the exercise of licensing functions.
Amendment No. 205M proposes to remove from the scope of the order-making power any function which might affect the use or development of land. I understand the anxieties but we must be clear about the matter. If an order concerning the contracting out of land-related functions was laid by Ministers and approved by Parliament there would be no compulsion on local authorities to take action. It would simply free individual local authorities to employ contractors where that seemed appropriate and sensible.
That is particularly important to bear in mind when one realises that the exclusion proposed by this amendment would range far wider than just the determination of planning applications. It would in fact impact on the economic development and other land-related activities of local authorities. It might be entirely appropriate to introduce an element of competition into the exercise of those activities. That may not have been the intention of the noble Baroness and I accept that these are probing amendments.
We believe that the broad approach taken in the Bill as it stands is the right one. It will be for the Minister to consider each case on its merits—consulting the local authority associations in respect of local authority functions—before deciding on whether to lay an order before Parliament. I suggest that that will be the proper time to consider whether or not a particular function should proceed. The amendment would preclude that option. That, in my view, narrows and limits the Bill in a way which I do not believe is in the interests of contracting out in general.
For these reasons, and in the light of the considerable assurances which I have given, I hope that the noble Baroness will withdraw her amendments.
Lord Peston: I became a little lost at the beginning of the Minister's reply. Was he relying partly on Clause 60 (1) (a), which deals with the liberty of the individual? Did he regard that as a safeguard that he wished to draw to our attention? Is it right that if we want to know what that subsection means, we shall have to discuss the next amendment?
Lord Strathclyde: Perhaps the noble Lord wants me to pre-empt the amendment. I was not using that as a defence—
Lord Peston: I would find it convenient if the Minister would pre-empt the next amendment if he can say something. I raised the matter yesterday because it appeared to me that that subsection says nothing or it prevents all forms of contracting out. I am interested to know whether someone can go to court in respect of any

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of these functions and say, "You cannot do it because it affects the liberty of the individual". Can the Minister be persuaded to comment on that now?
Lord Strathclyde: I was interested in what the noble Lord said yesterday about the word "liberty" in Clause 60(1) (a). He took the word to mean something far wider than is intended—
Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone: Hear, hear!
Lord Strathclyde: I hear my noble and learned friend agreeing with me. The reference to "liberty" means physical liberty. That is the consistent use of the word throughout the statute book—
Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone: Hear, hear!
Lord Strathclyde: The reference to an individual makes it clear that only the physical liberty of natural persons, and not a legal body such as a company, is the subject of the paragraph. The whole clause embodies the important principle that if a function affects the fundamental freedom of citizens of the kind detailed in the subsection, and it is proposed to make it possible to contract out that function, as a general rule it would not be appropriate to use a general order-making power alone to achieve it. I hope that that explains the well precedented legal meaning of the word "liberty".
Lord Peston: I thank the Minister for that reply. It is another example of that which was emphasised only the other week by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham. I take it that we do not use the word "liberty" to mean what it means in the English language but that we go to the peculiar sub-language called "the law" to find the meaning. It never occurred to me that it meant physical liberty; I thought that it meant liberty. I deeply thank the noble Lord for that explanation because it clarifies the Bill in an important way.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: I am grateful for the Minister's thoughtful reply. I was pleased to see the measure of agreement between us on the broader issue; that is the need to protect the integrity and probity of local authority decision making. There is no gap between us on that. However, unless at a later stage the Government accept a version of this amendment, or bring forward one of their own, I have no confidence that Clause 60 will ensure that protection. I am sure that it is a goal for which we all aim.
I have been trying to tease out what the Minister was saying. Was he saying that the functions that I have indicated, including those listed in Amendment No. 205K, do not require the exercise of discretion? I have to tell him that of course they do. Housing benefit, for example, regularly involves the local authority exercising a discretion as to whether to top up the reasonable rent of the rent officer to that being charged by the landlord. That is an entirely discretionary item, as is, for example, whether one regards or disregards a war widow's pension. A discretionary education grant is also a discretionary item at further and higher education.
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First, is the Minister saying that they are not discretionary items? I must assure him that they are. Secondly, is he saying that some items are discretionary and others are not? Is he saying that decisions will be made on a case-by-case basis but where discretion is involved they may not be contracted out? Thirdly, is he saying that many areas involve discretion but provided that they are contracted out to a body which has professional standards and can be trusted to act impartially, that is acceptable? Which of those three positions was the Minister's answer steering the Committee towards?
Lord Strathclyde: The noble Baroness has put a gloss on my reply. I said that there is little discretion available in many of these matters. Like many social security benefits, housing and council tax benefits involve the application of laid-down rules, as the noble Baroness knows very well. The point is that any claimant meeting the test so laid down is legally entitled to benefit. In that respect, there is little discretion; it is a question of establishing the facts and applying the rules to them.
I do not believe that it will be particularly helpful to have a long and tiresome debate about the application of social security rules. I certainly do not wish to have that and I am more than happy to look again at the issue to see whether I can be helpful on Report.
Lord Monkswell: I am sorry to introduce this subject but the Minister mentioned it in his earlier reply and I had hoped for clarification. He said that the Government did not have a mind to contract out these various areas of local authority activity and that it would be up to individual local authorities to come forward with proposals. He said that the Government would then listen to those proposals and act. The implication was that they would act in favour of the local authority coming forward with proposals.
Will the Minister clarify the position? The answer implies that it is acceptable for some local authorities to choose not to use their powers and effectively to say, "We are not prepared to look at individual cases. We are happy to abide by the basic minimum rules and we will contract that out". Some people may take the view that some local authorities may be prepared to abrogate their responsibilities. Is that effectively what the Government are saying? Would they go along with an individual local authority abrogating its responsibility as regards discretion in the areas that my noble friend on the Front Bench detailed?
Lord Strathclyde: The situation is laid out quite clearly in the Bill. If the Government decide to lay an order, there is no compulsion on local authorities to contract out particular functions. I was referring to the fact that where a local authority felt that it might be useful to contact out a statutory function, it could make representations to government. We should discuss them and if we decided that it was appropriate, we should bring an order before Parliament.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: There are many issues involved here. The Minister must accept from me that there are many areas—housing and council tax—which involve discretion. He must take my word on that. We need to tease those out at much greater length. It may be

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that some of that can be done by way of correspondence during the summer so that we can see where we agree and where we disagree. Clearly, we must return to that matter because the proper function of a local authority is a key issue in the Bill. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 205J to 206A not moved.]
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Broadbridge): I must warn the Committee that if Amendment No. 207 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment No. 207A.
Lord Peston Lord Peston moved Amendment No. 207:
Page 54, leave out lines 39 and 40.
The noble Lord said: In moving this amendment, I shall speak also to Amendment No. 212A. Before I do so, I should say that it was most remiss of me not to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, on his rise to his new and very important position. He knows that I shall miss him in his present guise. I thought that he did an excellent job representing the Department of Trade and Industry. I suppose that his achievements there have partly led to his present promotion. Of course, in that position, I shall not be able to argue with him, but he receives the sincere congratulations of myself and my colleagues. But as I still have an opportunity to argue with him today, I shall do so.
I believe that the official receiver and the insolvency service do an excellent job. Therefore, I am puzzled as to why, in the middle of the Bill, almost apropos of nothing, there is reference at Clause 60(2) to the official receiver. It states:
"shall not exclude any function of the official receiver".
On the next page of the Bill, it is emphasised that the office-holders to whom the clause applies includes the official receiver, which I assume includes the insolvency service.
I do not understand why the Government are remotely considering that to be a suitable function to contract out, especially as large numbers of other regulatory services are not even considered for that purpose on the face of the Bill. I wish to ask why that is so.
I am informed that the Government have hired the firm Stoy Hayward to look into possible options. I believe that it is either just about to prepare a report or possible options, or has already done so. I should rather debate the matter on the basis of what the report says.
My purpose in moving the amendment is to ask the noble Lord, as soon as the report is given to his right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade, to place copies in the Library of your Lordships' House or, for my part more importantly, perhaps he will arrange for me to see it as I do not see how I can possibly approach this part of the Bill without seeing the main empirical underpinning of the Government's proposals.
If the Minister cannot give me the answer today, I am willing that he should write to me on the subject. I believe that he understands the point that I make. I am concerned as to why the official receiver and, implicitly, the
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insolvency service, is referred to in the Bill. More importantly, if a report is available, I should like to see it. I beg to move.
4.45 p.m.
Lord Strathclyde: Of course I thank the noble Lord, Lord Peston, for his kind words. He may not hear me for very much longer, but he will still see me across the Floor of the Chamber. I recognise the anxieties which underline his remarks. The contracting out of the official receiver's functions is obviously a difficult but interesting matter. As the noble Lord rightly noted, the Government have asked consultants to examine the extent to which the private sector could undertake the routine work involved in the administration of compulsory insolvencies, bankruptcies, liquidations and so on.
I shall accept the invitation extended to me by the noble Lord to write to him. I am not aware that the report has been received or even, when it is received, what its status will be. I believe in open government but decisions will have to be taken in the light of the report. Therefore, I shall write to the noble Lord on that matter.
Our objective is to explore the possible involvement of the private sector in two ways: first, the possibility of achieving greater gains in efficiency and effectiveness in the carrying out of functions by employing private-sector contractors; and, secondly, to look at the investigatory role of official receivers.
The contracting out of routine support work offers the possibility of releasing official receivers from the burden of such tasks to enable them to concentrate on their investigative work. In pursuit of those objectives, the provisions in Clause 60(2), which Amendment No. 207 seeks to remove, will ensure that Ministers are able to consider the widest range of options for contracting out.
The exemption to the general exclusion is needed to bring the full range of the official receiver's functions within the scope of the order-making power. Functions which might be affected would typically relate to the official receiver requiring bankrupts and directors to attend on him and answer questions; to his power to seize or require the surrender of property which he considers forms part of the insolvent's estate; and to the exercise of his discretion relating to the holding of public examinations or the suspension of a bankrupt's discharge. Clearly the exercise of those functions is directed principally at those who are concerned as individuals in bankruptcy proceedings or as directors of companies which have become insolvent. In each case, there may well be routine elements which would be entirely appropriate for contracting out.
I hope that that explains the background against which we are operating. I hope that the noble Lord will bear with me in relation to the report and that he will withdraw the amendment.
Lord Peston: I thank the noble Lord. There may or may not be routine elements for contracting out. The matter must be examined. I accept what the Minister said and I have always accepted his bona fides. I hope that he will agree with me that if consultants produce a report, it is only fair that that information should be made available

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to us all. Without that, we cannot really discuss the matter rationally because, while the Minister may have seen relevant information, the rest of us will not have done so.
I am quite happy for the Minister to write to me on the matter. I wish to return to it and I hope that we can do so on the basis of open government. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 207A and 208 not moved.]
Lord Strathclyde Lord Strathclyde moved Amendment No. 208ZA:
Page 55, line 10, leave out ("and").
The noble Lord said: These are technical amendments to take account of the changes which will be introduced by the Local Government (Scotland) Bill, which is currently before your Lordships, and by the Local Government (Wales) Act which recently received Royal Assent. Amendments Nos. 217CA, 217CB, 217CC and 217E amend the definition of "local authority". I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Strathclyde Lord Strathclyde moved Amendment No. 208ZB:
Page 55, line 13, at end insert:
("; and
(h) paragraph 2 of Schedule 10 to the Local Government etc. (Scotland) Act 1994 (enforcement of water and sewerage charges)").
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 60, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 61 [Effect of contracting out]:
[Amendments Nos. 208A to 208C not moved. ]
Lord Strathclyde Lord Strathclyde moved Amendments Nos. 208CA to 208CC:
Page 55, line 18, after ("by") insert ("or in relation to").
Page 55, line 21, after ("by") insert ("or in relation to").
Page 55, line 23, after ("by") insert ("or in relation to").
On Question, amendments agreed to.
[Amendment No. 208D not moved.]
Baroness Hollis of Heigham Baroness Hollis of Heigham moved Amendment No. 208E:
Page 55, line 23, at end insert:
("(2A) In the case of a function of a local authority Part III of the Local Government Finance Act 1982, Part III of the Local Government Act 1974 and section 100 and Schedule 12A to Local Government Act 1972 shall apply to the authorised person as they apply to the local authority.
(2B) In any case where there is no relevant contractor to whom any provision referred to in subsection (2A) above applies, that provision shall apply to the local authority.
(2C) For the purposes of subsection (2A) above, a local authority shall be entitled to make compliance with those requirements an express provision of the contract made between the authorised person and the local authority.").
The noble Baroness said: The amendment seeks to ensure that the rights of citizens to probity, transparency and accountability in local government are not lost or avoided if authorities contract out those functions voluntarily which hitherto Parliament has decided should be carried out by the local authority. What are we talking about? Subsection (2A) of the amendment refers to the continued role of the district auditor. He must, of course,
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be able to check, inspect and audit contractors' books when discharging a local function, as he can and does do as regards the local authority. After all, the contract is spending public money. The recent evidence from certain London local authorities shows just how vital that role of audit is. We do not want local authorities sheltering behind a sham VCT activity to avoid proper probity in financial affairs. The district auditor can surcharge and disqualify a councillor, but what is his power with regard to contractors? What happens to them?
Subsection (2B) of the amendment deals with the second set of controls within which local authorities operate—those of the local government ombudsman. As the noble Lord made clear yesterday, the local authority will remain accountable and legally liable for the exercise of its functions. But, for example, will an ombudsman be able to investigate a contract on receipt of a complaint as he would now investigate a local authority in a case where he believes that the procedures laid down by a local authority were either not reasonable or properly observed? Can the ombudsman find a contractor, and not just a local authority, guilty of maladministration?
That is obviously less of a problem when you are contracting out blue collar and outdoor services such as grounds maintenance. However, it would be infinitely more of a problem in regard to the use of VCT for in-house and professional services which may, as mentioned in the previous amendment, involve discretion—that is, a discretion for which senior management and councillors have hitherto taken responsibility. Where will responsibility for exercising that discretion lie? For example, what recourse will the aggrieved citizen have if, say, he loses the right to light because of a planning mistake; or if, for example, in social services he is unreasonably refused the right to be a potential doctor because of judgments made about the suitability of that family? Similarly, what would happen about the refusal of a special school place by a child exhibiting challenging behaviour? Where does the buck stop? At present it stops with councillors and senior management, but what about a contractor? Further, subsection (2C) refers to the continued right of the public and the press to information as laid down by the Widdicombe rules, and so on, to see relevant documents and not to be told that they may not see such documents because they may be regarded as commercially sensitive.
All three aspects of the amendment seek to ensure that, when a function is contracted out, members of the public—that is, council tax payers and the users of services—do not find their rights to that service curtailed and that they continue to enjoy the same citizens' rights to probity as they do now. In other words, if the local authority has contracted out the exercise of functions, it is to ensure that it has not similarly, and at the same time, offloaded citizens' rights. I beg to move.
Lord Strathclyde: I can assure the Committee that we do not want the provisions in the Bill to prevent a local authority auditor from carrying out his duty; nor do we want the role of the local government ombudsman to be in any way diminished. I am pleased to be able to tell noble Lords that those activities would not be undermined by the existing provisions in the Bill as currently drafted.

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Under Section 16 of the Local Government Finance Act 1982, it is already the case that an auditor of a local authority's accounts has access to all the documents that he needs for the audit, whether they are held by the authority, the contractor, or, indeed, by anyone else. He is also entitled to demand explanations of any such documents from the person who is holding them or who is accountable for them. We have consulted the Audit Commission, and it is satisfied that no further amendment is needed for the purpose.
Clause 61 of the Bill provides that a function contracted out under an order shall be treated for all purposes as having been done or omitted by the local authority. That means, so far as the ombudsman is concerned, that the authority remains accountable and legally liable for the exercise of the function in question, with the result that the ombudsman's powers are not changed or diminished in any way.
The ombudsman can investigate a complaint of maladministration against a local authority when in fact it was the act of its contractor. If the ombudsman recommends that compensation be paid, the local authority will be responsible for that payment. But no doubt the contract will enable the local authority to recover the cost from the contractor.
The noble Baroness asked where the buck stops. That is an entirely appropriate question to ask when dealing with the issue of contracting out functions, not just of governments but also of local authorities. In any contracting out under the order-making powers of Clause 59 the buck stops with the local authority by virtue of Clause 61. My reading of that clause is that it is pretty unequivocal.
I am not sure whether the noble Baroness raised the question of the right of access of the public to local authority meetings—
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: I just talked about access to information.
Lord Strathclyde: Nevertheless, I am more than happy to deal with the point that I know is pertinent to the amendment.
Those authorised to carry out functions as a result of the contracting-out orders will not be public bodies and, therefore, they will not have the same or even similar structures as those of local authorities. For that reason, it would not be appropriate to apply the provisions of the Local Government Act 1972 to a body which is not a local authority. However, through the use of conditions of contract, local authorities will be able to require contractors to make available specified information to the public. Indeed, as a result of their implementation of CCT for defined activities, local government has already developed a body of expertise in preparing the specifications which require contractors to be responsive to their customers and to involve those customers in the improvement and monitoring of performance.
Further, there is the point that I made concerning the position with regard to accountability and liability which is also relevant to the question. I hope that my response
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will give the noble Baroness some comfort in dealing with such issues and that she will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: I thank the Minister for his reply. He has, indeed, met our concerns about the ombudsman, for which I am grateful. However, I do not believe that he fully met our questions about the auditor and the surcharge. If a contractor has been found guilty of misappropriating funds or inappropriately handling funds according to the district auditor, in vocabulary that we would normally apply as regards not protecting the fiduciary interests of the council tax payer, whom does the auditor surcharge—the contractor or the council? If the matter is of sufficient severity that, if it were a function exercised directly by the local authority, the councillors would be liable to disqualification, what would happen?
Lord Strathclyde: I am not trying to avoid the question, but the answers to such hypothetical questions very much depend on the circumstances of the case; for example, the amount of money involved, the kind of contract and so on. I would not want to venture into a great legal argument. The general principle underlying this though, as I suspect the noble Baroness is aware, is that councillors are in the front line of being surcharged. They are the responsible people for ensuring that the contractors know what their duties are.
5 p.m.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: I thank the noble Lord, but I must say that he is really inviting local authorities to enter into a minefield where they contract out discretion—as we saw from the previous measure—and then render themselves liable to surcharge and disqualification if that discretion is abused by a contractor who is protected on other than financial grounds. I think that that is an extraordinarily worrying area that we shall need to come back to.
The further area that the Minister addressed concerned right of access both to information and to meetings. He said that as contractors are not public bodies, the public would not have access to those meetings. That means that key decisions in development control which affect the public, which the Government now require are taken in public, could in future be taken in private. That cannot be right. It cannot be right that decisions involving discretion such as development control could be taken in private without the proper attention of publicity, press and the public. That really is unacceptable. The Minister gave it away. He has; talked about customers and the satisfaction of customers. However, we are not talking about customers, we are talking about citizens' rights here. That is the gap between us. Unless the Minister can understand the nature of that concern, we will have to come back to that on Report. With the leave of the Committee, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees: I have to inform the Committee that if Amendment No. 209 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendments Nos. 209A, 209B or 209C. I now call Amendment No. 209.
Lord Williams of Elvel Lord Williams of Elvel moved Amendment No. 209:
Page 55, line 24, leave out subsection (3).
The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 209 standing in my name. It may be for the convenience of the Committee if I also talk to Amendments Nos. 209A, 209B and 212. The purpose of this amendment is probing. It is simply to find out the meaning of Clause 61. I understood from our discussions yesterday in Committee that it was clear that, where a function was contracted out, the legal responsibility for the effects of that contracting out would remain with the contractor; in other words, whether it be a Minister, or an office-holder, and not with the contractee. I hope very much that the Minister will be able to help me on this. I think he did explain, but I would like to have it very clear that that is in fact the case. I beg to move.
Lord Strathclyde: The clause establishes an important principle in respect of contracting out. It establishes, as the noble Lord, Lord Williams, correctly understands, that the Minister, office-holder or local authority will be accountable and legally liable for the acts and omissions of the contractor, when they are employed to undertake one of their functions, just as they are accountable and legally liable for acts and omissions of their officials.
Our policy is that the public interest in general, and the interests of third parties in particular should not be affected by virtue of a function being carried out by a contractor. Lines of accountability and means of redress will remain the same. Third parties will continue to have redress in respect of the exercise of the function.
I understand that the amendments are probing and I shall not deal with them in detail. However, I hope that the point that I have made as regards the explanation of Clause 61 and of the principle gives the noble Lord some satisfaction.
Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone: Is this a real point? I just wonder whether it is. Before the noble Lord, Lord Williams, replies, I want to put my difficulty. Clause 61 basically states in subsection (2) that if something is contracted out and done through a sub-contractor, the act which is done, being a function of the Minister, the local authority or whatever, is in fact to be treated by the outside world as if the Minister had done it himself. Subsection (3) makes an exception to that. Subsection (3) states that as between the two parties to the contract, the law of contract applies and the reality has to be looked at; and subsection (3) (b) states that this does not affect liability for criminal offences. I think it is plain myself, but if I have it wrong I hope that someone will tell me.
Lord Williams of Elvel: I am most grateful to the noble and learned Lord who is much more expert than I am. It may not be a real point. In my probing
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amendment I was trying to elicit exactly the sort of answer that I think the noble and learned Lord has given. My only worry about that is that in the contract— if we look at subsection (3) (a)—there may be laid on the contractor the legal obligation to do certain things which are properly the responsibility of the Minister or office-holder subject to paragraph (b) below on criminal proceedings.
I was just hoping that the Minister would confirm that it is in all respects the duty of the Minister or office-holder to ensure legally—who do I sue when things go wrong?—that, when things go wrong, I sue the Minister or the office-holder. I believe the noble and learned Lord has given me the answer and I hope that the Minister will confirm that that is right in which case—
Lord Strathclyde: Yes, that is absolutely right. The exceptions are obviously there to deal with problems, for instance of criminal liability where obviously the Minister could not be held responsible. For example if a contractor killed someone when driving while drunk, one would not pursue the Minister. My noble and learned friend is absolutely right.
Lord Williams of Elvel: I am very grateful. I do not wish to waste the time of the Committee, but I think it is perfectly proper that we should try to explore these matters. If the Opposition in its innocence cannot understand quite what the Government are doing, I think it is right to explore. As I understand it, that is the function of your Lordships' House. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 209A and 209B not moved. ]
Lord Strathclyde Lord Strathclyde moved Amendment No. 209C:
Page 55, line 29, leave out ("as mentioned in that subsection") and insert ("by the authorised person (or an employee of his)").
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 61, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 62 [Termination of contracting out]:
Clause 62 agreed to.
Clause 63 [Powers of certain office-holders]:
[Amendments Nos. 210 to 212B not moved. ]
Clause 63 agreed to.
Lord Strathclyde Lord Strathclyde moved Amendment No. 212C:
After Clause 63, insert the following new clause:
Restrictions on disclosure of information
(". Schedule (Restrictions on disclosure of information) to this Act (which contains provisions modifying certain restrictions on the disclosure of information where functions of Ministers, office-holders or local authorities are contracted out) shall have effect.").
The noble Lord said: In moving Amendment No. 212C, I wish to speak also to the other amendments grouped with it. This group deletes Clause 64 which deals with the disclosure of information restricted by statute or an obligation of confidentiality—that is restricted information—and replaces it with a new Schedule 13A. Amendments Nos. 213, 213A, 214 and 215 are grouped with this amendment.
New Schedule 13A thus addresses the second of the main statutory obstacles to market testing and contracting out which we have found. We have already debated the restrictions imposed by the Carltona principle which are addressed by Clauses 59 to 63. This schedule deals with the extension of restrictions on information, first, to enable such information to be passed to contractors where necessary, and, secondly, to ensure that the restrictions bite thereafter on the contractors too.
Let me give you some examples. Some information is restricted by statute, for example the Statistics of Trade Act 1947, which is used by government departments to compile indicators such as the index of industrial production. It is clearly absurd that virtually no part of the operation of collecting trade statistics can be undertaken by contractors because of the need to access names and addresses of respondents. A contractor would have to have access to such information, for example, to address envelopes. Other information is restricted by obligations of confidentiality where information has been provided on the understanding that it would be disclosed only to certain groups of people. New Schedule 13A would allow for contractors to have access to that information.
The amendments provide welcome safeguards. I hope that they will be welcomed by the Committee. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendment No. 212D not moved. ]
Clause 64 [Restrictions on disclosure of information]:
[Amendments Nos. 213 to 215 not moved. ]
On Question, Whether Clause 64 shall stand part of the Bill?
Lord Williams of Elvel: As I understood it, the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, had given notice of his intention to oppose the Question that Clause 64 stand part of the Bill. I do not know whether he wishes to pursue that intention.
Lord Strathclyde: I spoke to this Question with the other rather large group of amendments; I apologise to the Committee for it being such a large group of amendments. I wish to oppose that this clause stand part of the Bill.
Clause 64 negatived.
Clause 65 agreed to.
Lord Strathclyde Lord Strathclyde moved Amendment No. 215ZA:
Before Schedule 14, insert the following new schedule:

SCHEDULE 13A

  RESTRICTIONS ON DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION
  Preliminary
  1.—(1) Paragraphs 2 to 5, 7 and 8 below apply where—

  (a) a person (contractor A) is authorised, whether by virtue of an order made under section 58 or 59 above or otherwise, to exercise any function (the relevant function) of a Minister, office-holder or local authority (authority A); and

  394

  (b) the disclosure of relevant information, that is, information obtained, whether before or after the commencement of this Part of this Act, in or in connection with the exercise of the relevant function or a related function, is restricted by any enactment or by any obligation of confidentiality.

  (2) Paragraph 6 below applies where—

  (a) a person (contractor A) is authorised, whether by virtue of an order made under section 58 or 59 above or otherwise, to exercise any function (the relevant function) of a Minister, office-holder or local authority (authority A); and

  (b) the disclosure of relevant information, that is, information obtained, whether before or after the commencement of this Part of this Act, in or in connection with the exercise of any function of another Minister, office-holder or local authority (authority E), is restricted by any enactment or by any obligation of confidentiality.

  Disclosures between contracting parties etc.
  2. The enactment or obligation shall not prevent or penalise the disclosure of relevant information—

  (a) between contractor A or an employee of his and authority A or an authorised officer of that authority;

  (b) between contractor A and an employee of his or between one such employee and another; or

  (c) where the relevant function has been delegated to authority A by another Minister, office-holder or local authority (authority B), between contractor A or an employee of his and authority B or an authorised officer of that authority,

  if the disclosure is necessary or expedient in or in connection with, or for the purpose of facilitating, the exercise of the relevant function or a related function, or the performance of ancillary services.
  Disclosures by contracting parties to contractor B
  3.—(1) This paragraph applies where another person (contractor B) is authorised, whether by virtue of an order under section 58 or 59 above or otherwise, to exercise the relevant function or a related function.
  (2) The enactment or obligation shall not prevent or penalise the disclosure of relevant information by contractor A or an employee of his, or authority A or an authorised officer of that authority, to contractor B or an employee of his if—

  (a) the disclosure is necessary or expedient for the purpose of facilitating the exercise of the relevant function or a related function; and

  (b) where the disclosure is by contractor A or an employee of his, the disclosure falls within a description of disclosures certified by authority A (whether in the authorisation or otherwise) to be capable of being so necessary or expedient.

  Disclosures by contracting parties to contractor C
  4.—(1) This paragraph applies where another person (contractor C) is authorised, whether by virtue of an order under section 58 or 59 above or otherwise, to exercise a function of another Minister, office-holder or local authority (authority C).
  (2) The enactment or obligation shall not prevent or penalise the disclosure of relevant information by contractor A or an employee of his, or authority A or an authorised officer of that authority, to contractor C or an employee of his if—

  (a) the disclosure is necessary or expedient for the purpose of facilitating the exercise of the relevant function, a related function or a function of authority C; and

  (b) where the disclosure is by contractor A or an employee of his, the disclosure falls within a description of disclosures certified by authority A (whether in the authorisation or otherwise) to be capable of being so necessary or expedient; and

  (c) the information could be lawfully disclosed, for that purpose, by authority A to authority C.

  Disclosures by contractor A to authority D
  5. The enactment or obligation shall not prevent or penalise the disclosure of relevant information by contractor A or an employee of his to another Minister, office-holder or local authority (authority D) or an authorised officer of that authority if—

  (a) the disclosure is necessary or expedient for the purpose of facilitating the exercise of the relevant function, a related function or a function of authority D;

  (b) the disclosure falls within a description of disclosures certified by authority A (whether in the authorisation or otherwise) to be capable of being so necessary or expedient; and

  (c) the information could be lawfully disclosed, for that purpose, by authority A to authority D.

  Disclosures to contractor A by authority E
  6. The enactment or obligation shall not prevent or penalise the disclosure of relevant information by authority E or an authorised officer of that authority to contractor A or an employee of his if—

  (a) the disclosure is necessary or expedient for the purpose of facilitating the exercise of the relevant function, a related function or a function of authority E; and

  (b) the information could be lawfully disclosed, for that purpose, by authority E to authority A.

  Disclosures for audit purposes
  7.—(1) Where authority A is a Minister or office-holder, the enactment or obligation shall not prevent or penalise the disclosure of relevant information by contractor A or an employee of his if—

  (a) the disclosure is to the Comptroller, or a person exercising an audit function of his, and the information could lawfully be disclosed to the Comptroller or that person by authority A; or

  (b) the disclosure is to an accounting officer, or a person exercising an audit function of his, and the information could lawfully be disclosed to that officer or person by authority A.

  (2) Where authority A is a local authority, the enactment or obligation shall not prevent or penalise the disclosure of relevant information by contractor A or an employee of his if—

  (a) the disclosure is to the authority's chief finance officer, or a person exercising an audit function of his; and

  (b) the information could lawfully be disclosed to that officer or person by the authority.

  (3) In this paragraph—
  "accounting officer" means an officer appointed by the Treasury under section 22 of the Exchequer and Audit Departments Act 1866 or section 4 of the Government Trading Funds Act 1973;
  "audit function", in relation to the Comptroller, includes any function under Part II of the National Audit Act 1983 or Part III of the Audit (Northern Ireland) Order 1987 (examinations into economy, efficiency and effectiveness);
  "chief finance officer" has the same meaning as in section 5 of the Local Government and Housing Act 1989;
  "Comptroller" means the Comptroller and Auditor General or the Comptroller and Auditor General for Northern Ireland.
  Implied term of contractor A's contract
  8. It shall be an implied term of any contract made between contractor A and authority A and relating to the exercise of the relevant function that contractor A shall take all reasonable steps to secure that any relevant information—

  (a) which is obtained by him or an employee of his; and

  (b) the disclosure of which is restricted by any enactment or obligation,

  is not disclosed at any time (whether or not during the subsistence of the contract) to any other person in contravention of the enactment or in breach of the obligation.
  Unauthorised disclosures
  9.—(1) This paragraph applies where—

  (a) any information is disclosed to any person in accordance with paragraphs 2 to 7 above (the original disclosure); and

  (b) that person, or any other person to whom the information is subsequently so disclosed, discloses the information otherwise than in accordance with paragraphs 2 to 7 above (the unauthorised disclosure).

  (2) If the original disclosure was restricted by an enactment, the enactment shall apply in relation to the person making the unauthorised disclosure as if—

  (a) he had obtained the information by virtue of the same provision as the person who made the original disclosure; and

  (b) where the enactment would not have restricted that disclosure if the person who made it had not fallen within a particular class, he fell within that class.

  (3) If the original disclosure was restricted by an obligation, the person making the unauthorised disclosure shall be treated for all purposes as if he were subject to that obligation.
  Interpretation: general
  10.—(1) In this Schedule—
  "ancillary services" means services certified by authority A (whether in the authorisation or otherwise) to be services appearing to it to be calculated to facilitate, or to be conducive or incidental to, the exercise of the relevant function;
  "authorised officer", in relation to a Minister, office-holder or local authority, means any officer of the Minister, office-holder or local authority who is authorised by him or it to disclose or (as the case may be) obtain the information in question;
  "employee", in relation to contractor A, includes any person who performs ancillary services for that contractor, and any employee of such a person;
  "related function" means any function of authority A which is certified by that authority (whether in the authorisation or otherwise) to be a function appearing to it to be a function which is related to the relevant function.
  (2) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1) above a function of authority A is related to another function of that authority if information—

  (a) which is obtained in or in connection with the exercise of either function; and

  (b) the disclosure of which is restricted by any enactment or by any obligation of confidentiality,

  can lawfully be used by that authority for the purpose of facilitating the exercise of the other function.
  (3) In this Schedule—

  (a) any reference to another person is a reference to a person other than contractor A; and

  (b) any reference to another Minister, office-holder or local authority is a reference to a Minister, office-holder or local authority other than authority A.").

  On Question, amendment agreed to.
  [Amendment No. 215A not moved. ]
  Schedule 14 [Amendments etc. for Facilitating Contracting Out]:
  [Amendments Nos. 215B and 215C not moved.]
  Lord Strathclyde Lord Strathclyde moved Amendment No. 215D:
  Page 111, line 14, after ("43B") insert (", 43C").
  On Question, amendment agreed to.
  Lord Williams of Elvel Lord Williams of Elvel moved Amendment No. 215E:
  Page 111, line 22, leave out ("or agent").
  The noble Lord said: It may be for the convenience of the Committee if I speak also to Amendments Nos. 215G and 215J.
  If I may say so, it is a slightly arcane point on Schedule 14, which deals with Scotland. I am a little worried about the rent registration service provider performing his functions through an employee or agent. I hope very much that the Government will consider whether the provision is in the appropriate formulation. I beg to move.
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Henley): Perhaps I may respond briefly. These amendments would prevent rent registration providers from using agents. However, it is important that remote areas are covered, and it may be that a provider can give a faster and more efficient service in such areas by using a local agent with local knowledge such as a surveyor, rather than relying on his own or one of his employee's relatively infrequent visits.
  Agents are fully accountable for their actions. Paragraphs (a) and (b) of new Section 43A(8) provide that decisions and actions of an agent, or his use of knowledge, experience or opinion, will be deemed to be that of the provider. Therefore rent registration service providers will be fully responsible for the actions of their agents; and anybody adversely affected by the actions of an agent will be able to seek redress from the provider.
  As for possible bias, the rule in law against bias and the appearance of bias means that the courts could quash biased decisions. That provides a very strong safeguard for the interests of persons affected by rent registration service decisions. Since under new Section 43A(8) the rent registration service provider would be responsible for his agents' decisions, he would himself be liable to challenge should he appoint an agent in circumstances where there was a real danger of bias. Of course, should it not be possible to find an agent who was free from a real danger of bias, then no agent would be appointed. I hope that with that fairly brief explanation the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
  Lord Williams of Elvel: I am most grateful to the noble Lord for his explanation. It is important to have it on the record. Under the circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Lord Strathclyde Lord Strathclyde moved Amendment No. 215F:
  Page 111, line 23, leave out ("by") and insert ("or omitted to be done by or in relation to").
  On Question, amendment agreed to.
  [Amendment No. 215G not moved. ]
  Lord Strathclyde Lord Strathclyde moved Amendment No. 215H:
  Page 111, line 27, leave out ("by") and insert ("or omitted to be done by or in relation to").
  On Question, amendment agreed to.
  [Amendment No. 215J not moved. ]
  Lord Strathclyde Lord Strathclyde moved Amendments Nos. 215K to 215Q:
  Page 111, line 33, at end insert:
  ("(9) Subsection (8) (a) above is without prejudice to section 43C below.").
  Page 111, line 34, leave out second ("section") and insert ("sections").
  Page 112, line 14, after ("done") insert ("or omitted to be done").
  Page 112, line 16, after ("by") insert ("or in relation to").
  Page 112, line 18, leave out ("by") and insert ("or omitted to be done by or in relation to").
  Page 112, line 23, at end insert:
  ("Rent registration service providers: restrictions on disclosure of information.
  43C.—(1) Schedule (Restrictions on disclosure of information) to the Deregulation and Contracting Out Act 1994 (restrictions on disclosure of information) shall, where contractor A within the meaning of that Schedule is a rent registration service provider, apply with the following modifications.
  (2) Without prejudice to paragraph 10(1), references to an employee of contractor A and, where contractor B within the meaning of that Schedule is also a rent registration service provider, to an employee of contractor B shall be taken to include references to an agent, and the employee of an agent, of contractor A or, as the case may be, of contractor B.
  (3) Subject to subsections (4) to (6) below, references to authority A shall be taken to be references to the rent officer for any registration area specified in the rent registration arrangements.
  (4) In paragraph 2(a), the reference to authority A shall be taken to be a reference to such a rent officer or the Secretary of State.
  (5) In paragraphs 3(2) (b), 4(2) (b), 5(b) and 8 and, in paragraph 10(1), in the definition of "ancillary services", the reference to authority A shall be taken to be a reference to the Secretary of State.
  (6) In the definition of "related function" in paragraph 10(1), the reference to a function of authority A which is certified by that authority shall be taken to be a reference to a function of a rent officer which is certified by the Secretary of State.").
  On Question, amendments agreed to.
  [Amendments Nos. 215R to 216ZB not moved. ]
  Schedule 14, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 66 [Provisions with respect to orders]:
  [Amendments Nos. 216A to 217A not moved. ]
  Clause 66 agreed to.
  [Amendments Nos. 217AA and 217B not moved. ]
  Clause 67 agreed to.
  Clause 68 [Interpretation of Part II]:
  [Amendment No. 217C not moved. ]
  Lord Strathclyde Lord Strathclyde moved Amendments Nos. 217CA to 217CC:
  Page 59, line 14, leave out ("or 3") and insert (", 3 or 3A").
  Page 59, line 32, leave out ("district") and insert ("county borough").
  Page 59, line 34, leave out ("means a regional, islands or district council") and insert ("has the same meaning as in the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973").
  On Question, amendments agreed to.
  [Amendments Nos. 217CD and 217D not moved. ]
  Lord Strathclyde Lord Strathclyde moved Amendments Nos. 217E and 217F:
  Page 60, line 18, at end insert:

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  ("( ) In relation to any time before 1st April 1996, subsection (1) above shall have effect as if, in paragraph (b) of the definition of "local authority", for the words "county borough" there were substituted the word "district".").
  Page 60, line 39, after ("by") insert ("or in relation to").
  On Question, amendments agreed to.
  Clause 68, as amended, agreed to.
  Clauses 69 and 70 agreed to.
  Schedule 15 [Repeals]:
  [Amendment No. 218 not moved. ]
  Lord Strathclyde Lord Strathclyde moved Amendments Nos. 219 and 220:
  Page 121, line 9 (bis), at end insert:
  ("1992 c. 41. The Charities Act 1992. Section 67(3) (b) and the word "but" immediately preceding it.").
  Page 121, line 12, at end insert:
  ("1993 c. 10.
  The Charities Act 1993 Section 47(3)(a).").
  On Question, amendments agreed to.
  [Amendment No. 221 not moved. ]
  Schedule 15, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 71 [Short title, commencement and extent]:
  [Amendment No. 222 not moved. ]
  Lord Strathclyde Lord Strathclyde moved Amendments Nos. 223 to 231:
  Page 61, line 38, after ("20,") insert ("(Offences under section 63 of the Charities Act 1992: creation of statutory defence)," ).
  Page 61, line 38, after ("20,") insert ("(Applications for permits to conduct public charitable collections: time-limits)," ).
  Page 61, line 38, after ("20,") insert ("(Annual audit or examination of charity accounts),").
  Page 61, line 38, after ("20,") insert ("(Annual reports of charities)," ).
  Page 61, line 38, after ("20,") insert ("(Annual returns by charities)," ).
  Page 61, line 40, after ("1984") insert ("and the Charities Act 1993").
  Page 62, line 2, leave out first ("and").
  Page 62, line 2, after ("1985,") insert ("the Charities Act 1992").
  Page 62, line 2, after ("1985,") insert ("and the Charities Act 1993").
  On Question, amendments agreed to.
  Lord Simon of Glaisdale Lord Simon of Glaisdale moved Amendment No. 232:
  Page 62, line 6, leave out ("day") and insert ("days").
  The noble and learned Lord said: I am sorry to interrupt the rapid progress that the Committee has been making but this is quite a short amendment and I hope that the Committee will think it is valuable. It would remove one-and-a-half lines of statutory drivel from the Bill—Members of the Committee may ask why it is worth doing that when Bills these days are in constant disregard of the recommendations of the Renton Committee on the preparation of legislation—based on an authoritative memorandum by the two senior Scottish judges of the time that the legislation should lay down general rules. However, our legislative practice at the
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  moment is to try to cover every particular instance that can be envisaged—the vital one always being missed, as the Scottish judges prognosticated. Where it is not a mass of particular instances, it is a series of what is in effect departmental standing orders and page upon page telling grandmothers how to suck eggs. In particular, it enjoins Ministers to do what any sensible Minister would do without prompting.
  I know that the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Elvel, regards "sensible Minister" as a contradiction in terms in relation to the present Government, although he has genially excused the noble Lords, Lord Strathclyde and Lord Henley, from that blanket condemnation. Nevertheless, the fact remains that there are things that we could safely leave to a Minister to do. It is quite useless to go on inflating our statute book, at enormous expense, by telling Ministers to do things that they would certainly do without any prompting.
  The amendment proposes to leave out one-and-a-half unnecessary lines. Clause 71(4) reads:
  "The remaining provisions of this Act, other than section 26(2), shall come into force on such day as the Secretary of State may by order made by statutory instrument appoint; and different days may be so appointed for different provisions or for different purposes".
  Amendments Nos. 232 and 235 to which I speak propose to put "day" into the plural and leave out the final one-and-a-half lines. The Committee may ask why the words:
  "and different days may be so appointed for different provisions or for different purposes",
  should be in the Bill at all. Those words are included in order to forestall an argument that the Minister must make only one commencement order, however different the provisions may be and however different their purposes.
  Obviously that is a pretty extreme line of argument. Similar words occur constantly in statute after statute. I came across them by chance in the Local Government (Wales) Bill which was in the charge of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate. He is a greatly admired lawyer so I confidently left the matter to him. I asked him whether he was prepared to say that such an argument could possibly succeed in any reasonable court. Of course, he was not prepared to say that. The furthest he was prepared to go was to say that the argument might be advanced. There is no limit to the silly arguments that might be advanced by way of misinterpretation. In any case, the noble and learned Lord was prepared to concede that, if we tried to forestall and obviate every conceivable argument, however remote its chance of success, the statute book would go on growing as inexorably as it does at the moment.
  The Committee may wonder how such words ever got into a Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Peston, surmised rightly on an earlier occasion that they got into a Whitehall computer. It is not difficult to see how that happened. A young and keen trainee draftsman would be given a shot at the first draft of the Bill. He would put in some such provision as: "and different days may be appointed for different provisions or for different purposes". The senior draftsman would query that and the young draftsman would say: "Well, it is quite

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  possible that an argument might be advanced that, however different the provisions and however different the purposes, only one commencement day should be appointed. If different days were appointed for different purposes and different provisions, they would be ultra vires". Of course, the senior draftsman would know that that was nonsense, but he would not want to discourage a keen young probationer, and so it passed into the draft of the Bill. No official would object to unnecessary words in a Bill; the longer a Bill is, the more likely it is to be guillotined in the other place and the more likely the provisions are to be discussed late at night in your Lordships' House where they cannot effectively be challenged. So it would have gone to officials.
  The Minister is interested only in the policy, and on being assured that this was normal drafting, he would have had no more to say. The only other person who is in fact responsible is the Prime Minister. Parliamentary counsel come directly under the Prime Minister. Sir Robert Andrew, in his Review of Government Legal Services, recommended that the Law Officers' Departments should be the responsible office for parliamentary counsel, but that was the only recommendation of Sir Robert Andrew that was not accepted. So the parliamentary counsel are still responsible only to the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister naturally has other things to do than to scrutinise a Bill to see whether an unnecessary line-and-a-half has been included. He will probably be in Corfu or Edinburgh at a conference and will have other matters on his mind than the contents or even the general style of drafting. So, as the noble Lord, Lord Peston, surmised, the matter gets on to the computer. Once it is in a computer, it is irremovable. It comes in Bill after Bill.
  In these amendments we propose that instead of saying "day" we say "days", and leave out,
  "and different days may be so appointed".
  If the word "days" is substituted for "day", it is obvious that more than one day is indicated. That being so, I venture to suggest that there is nothing to be said against this amendment. I do not know what it says at the end of the noble Lord's brief. I trust that it says either "Consider" or "Accept". But I fear that, the computer being almost "saintly", it may say "Reject". But I ask the noble Lord to look at this matter as one of common sense. I beg to move.
  5.30 p.m.
  Lord Strathclyde: The noble and learned Lord has been quiet for too long. I for one much enjoyed the way he spoke in moving his amendment. I want so much to be helpful to him. But before I do so, perhaps I may read out the words of my brief. What the noble and learned Lord suggests in Amendment No. 232 is that we should turn the word "day" into "days". And I have to tell him that the words that he wants to leave out are the standard form of words which appear in almost every Bill of more than a few clauses which is to come into force by a commencement order—especially Bills which, like this one, cover a number of topics. These words allow different dates for commencement to be chosen as appropriate for the various provisions and for
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  the different purposes of those provisions, instead of compelling them to have the same, possibly inappropriate, date.
  I am advised that to put the word "day" into the plural, which would be the result of Amendment No. 232, might have the same effect in respect of different days and different provisions, although we cannot be sure that the courts or the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments would take that view. To omit the standard words would certainly deprive us of the capacity to bring the same provision into force on different days for different purposes—most obviously, Clauses 28 and 70, which introduce Schedules 10 and 15 respectively.
  That is what I am bidden to say. But after the speech of the noble and learned Lord, I think it would be unfair of me not to say that I will take this matter away and consider it with the parliamentary draftsmen to see whether we could accommodate the wishes of the noble and learned Lord.
  Lord Tordoff: Will the noble Lord perhaps accept, in the light of what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon of Glaisdale, has been saying about this being a sort of computer virus, that what he has just read out to us is also a form of computer virus which comes out of the same computer?
  Lord Strathclyde: I rather felt like that as I was reading it out.
  Lord Simon of Glaisdale: I am most grateful to the noble Lord. I gratefully accept his undertaking to consider the matter. For his brilliant conduct of this Bill, the noble Lord has very much earned a holiday. When he returns, I hope that he will have a serious interview with the computer and try to concentrate its mind. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Lord Simon of Glaisdale Lord Simon of Glaisdale moved Amendment No. 233:
  Page 62, line 6, after ("day") insert ("not later than twelve months after the day on which this Act is passed").
  The noble and learned Lord said: This amendment is grouped with Amendments Nos. 234, 236 and 237, all of which raise the same point. In other words, they all deal with a commencement date and are to ensure that "a commencement date" means what it says.
  The amendments, I am afraid, are called for as a result of the constitutional antics of the Home Secretary in relation to the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board which will be a painful memory to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Fraser, who had to defend an uncomfortable debate on that subject.
  The Committee will know that a non-statutory scheme was set up to provide for victims of criminal injury. After a time, it was decided to substitute a statutory scheme. That was in 1988. Not only did that Act stipulate for a statutory scheme but it spelt out the details of the scheme in great detail in a schedule. In the usual way these days, it was left to the Minister to bring all the provisions of the statute into force. That is

  403
  invariably the practice these days. It is highly convenient because only the Minister knows when he is administratively ready to bring the provisions into force.
  However, what was done in relation to the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board was something quite different. The Minister, having been given a discretion as to the date on which it should be brought into effect, interpreted that as a discretion not to bring the scheme into force at all, but, on the contrary, to substitute a quite different and again non-statutory scheme of his own devising.
  There is more to be said for what the Minister did than has sometimes been allowed. It is at the moment uncertain whether what he did was legal or illegal. That awaits decision by the Court of Appeal. But on balance, beneficent or otherwise, legal or illegal, there is no question that what the Home Secretary did was unconstitutional. What he did was to fly in the face of a clear indication by Parliament embodied in the statute that it wanted a specific statutory scheme. That has been stultified by the Minister's decision that that gives him a right not to bring the scheme into force at all.
  That being so, it is necessary in each Bill nowadays, I fear, to make sure that giving the Minister discretion as to a commencement date will not be taken as an invitation to him not to bring the provision into force at all. The question first arose earlier this week in relation to the Criminal Justice and Public Order Bill when an amendment similar to that which I am now moving was put down. The noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, the Minister in charge of the Bill, gave an undertaking that the provisions would indeed be brought into force. Your Lordships naturally accepted that.
  It would be desirable if the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, could say that what the Home Secretary did was a constitutional aberration which will not be repeated. However, I do not expect him to say that. So long as he says that the provisions of the Bill will be brought into effect, I imagine that the Committee will be content that he has gone as far as he possibly can. I beg to move.
  Lord Strathclyde: It is always with some trepidation that I rise to disagree with the noble and learned Lord. It will come as no surprise to him that I shall not venture into a controversy with the Home Secretary, whom I much admire. However, I should like to make it absolutely clear that the Government have every intention of commencing all the provisions with the minimum of delay. To delay unnecessarily these worthwhile deregulatory measures would be nonsensical and contrary to government policy.
  However, there are good reasons why we sought the flexibility of the commencement order for particular provisions. They require new administrative arrangements and procedures to be put into place, in particular the purposes of subsections (5) and (7) of Clause 71 under which transitional provisions for Clause 26 and Chapters III and IV of Part I are to be included in the commencement orders.
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  Obviously I wish to avoid the problems mentioned by the noble and learned lord. I hope that he will take this commitment as a serious one. I believe that when we have passed the Bill and it has received Royal Assent, we shall move speedily to the commencement orders. In the light of that assurance, I hope that the noble and learned Lord will withdraw his amendments.
  Lord Simon of Glaisdale: I surmise that the Committee will be satisfied that the Minister has gone as far as he possibly can and the Committee has an assurance that, so far as concerns this Bill, the commencement provisions mean what they say. The larger question will, no doubt, have to be raised on some larger occasion. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  [Amendments Nos. 234 to 237 not moved. ]
  Clause 71, as amended, agreed to.
  House resumed: Bill reported with amendments.

Local Government etc. (Scotland) Bill
5.45 p.m.
The Minister of State, Scottish Office (Lord Eraser of Carmyllie): My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do now again resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Fraser of Carmyllie. )
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Lord Lyell) in the Chair.]
Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove moved Amendment No. 132:
Before Clause 126, insert the following new clause:
("Children's Panels
. In Schedule 3 to the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968 (Children's Panels), after paragraph 1 there shall be inserted—

"1A.—(1) Two or more local authorities may make arrangements to form a joint Children's Panel for their areas.

(2) A joint Children's Panel shall not be formed in pursuance of the arrangements made under sub-paragraph (1) above unless the authorities have obtained the consent in writing of the Secretary of State.

(3) The Secretary of State may give a direction to two or more local authorities requiring them to form a joint Children's Panel; and the local authorities shall comply with any such direction.

(4) The provisions of this Act shall apply, subject to any necessary modification, to a joint Children's Panel as they apply to a Children's Panel formed under paragraph 1 of this Schedule".").

The noble Lord said: In moving this amendment, it may be convenient for the Committee if I also speak to Amendments Nos. 133, 133A, 135 and 144A.
With knowledge gained from hindsight, this amendment seeks to retain as much as possible of the present system of children's panels that operate in Scotland. The Committee will be aware that they were

405
created after much research into children's welfare in Scotland under the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968. For all their problems and despite tales that are sometimes heard about the children's panels, by and large most people in Scotland who are involved with them and with the children who have got into trouble believe that they have been a great success. We wish that to continue.
The amendments deal with the many facets of children's panels which we believe could be improved. With the break-up of local authorities, some provision has to be made for joint bodies to operate the children's panels. Some areas are too small and perhaps too intimate to run a children's panel for a very small local authority. So a joint panel will be formed. The Secretary of State will give his consent in writing to the formation of the panel and to the necessary arrangements for a joint panel. He will also give his consent to whatever area he believes will be a reasonable and workable area to use for that purpose.
I turn to the other amendments and in particular Amendment No. 135 which encompasses many of the matters about which we are concerned in this Bill. It ensures responsibility for the appointment of a reporter, which is a very important and key post in the whole set-up. He is responsible for the closely related functions of social work and education. The whole group of amendments tries to preserve the independence of local reporters. The amendments are consistent with the fundamental principle that the system of children's hearings should be locally based, although that local base must not be too narrow.
This group of amendments, and Amendment No. 135 in particular, would enable the Island authorities and the new unitary authorities to continue as the responsible authorities, but would empower the Secretary of State to create joint boards if he considers that the reporting functions could more appropriately be discharged on a joint basis. Under this amendment, if any joint board were established by the Secretary of State, it would consist wholly of elected members of the new unitary authorities within the area of the joint boards.
As presently drafted, Part III of the Bill would establish a national reporter service with no local accountability. Our amendment seeks to avoid the disadvantages that might thereby be created. Furthermore, the Government's consideration of the future of the reporter service has been detailed and ongoing for some time. That included publication of the Finlayson Report in 1992 which strongly recommended that the office of reporter should remain a local authority function and should not be transferred to a national body.
One point on which I should like personal assurance is that the reporter and the children's panel will remain a local and not an all-Scotland appointment. The Minister will be aware that there are dangers in having an all-Scotland post just as there are dangers in having too small a grouping of local authorities. It is disappointing that, despite the advice, the Government appear to be seeking to establish a national body.
If a national reporter service is established, a number of important facets of the present system will be lost. For instance, reporters are currently significant local officials ranking as chief officers of local authorities. Although their practice varies at present between authorities, when operated at their best the position gives reporters real influence over the policy of child-care and of resources. That input is appropriate given the importance of the reporter and the juvenile justice system. What real influence will a national service be able to exercise over such crucial local authority decisions? To try to do that would be a recipe for tension, and the last thing we want is to increase the tension in this field.
Local accountability is so important that the loss of it will be to the detriment of the whole system if the Government's projected—I hope they are projected and not decided—proposals are enacted. The best thing we can do is to hear what the Minister says about these fairly crucial points before we make any decisions. I beg to move.
Lord Kirkhill: With an open mind—I can assure the noble and learned Lord that I do have that on this issue—I should like the Minister, when he replies, to give justification for this significant change of policy as evinced by the present Administration. He is as aware as I am of the serious criticism which his party faces in Scotland on the whole crucial issue of local government reform. He is also aware, as I am, living as he does in Scotland, as I do, that a serious argument is constantly being levelled against the Government of which he is a member to the effect that they are continuing to over-centralise. This is another example of that, but I am willing to listen to his justification for it.
Baroness Faithfull: I should like to ask my noble and learned friend, first, if the service is to be centralised, how the panel members will be chosen. Will they be chosen by central or local government? Secondly, who will be responsible for training reporters and panel members? Will that come from the centre or from the local authorities?
The Earl of Balfour: I am certain that the provisions within the legislation will help the reporter system to carry on and be efficient. Because the local authorities are smaller, that will be important. In relation to Amendment No. 132, the combined effort of two or more local authorities is provided for by an amendment to the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968, Chapter 49, on page 187, Schedule 13, paragraph 5B of the Bill. In respect of Amendment No. 135—on "suitable accommodation" —I believe that that is satisfactorily provided for under the Government's ideas within Clause 131.
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie: I am glad to be given the opportunity to clear up exactly what is proposed in Scotland in relation to the way in which our system of children's panels should continue after the reorganisation of local government. I am pleased to be able to do that because, as our short debate revealed, there is something of a misunderstanding about what is being proposed.

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I can say to my noble friend Lady Faithfull that we have no intention whatever of centralising the arrangements for the children's panels. The children's panels will still be formed within each local authority area; they will still be part and parcel of the arrangements that exist at the moment. What is changed, and we consider it to be both an important and valuable change, is that there should be a reporter's system in service in Scotland headed by a principal reporter.
This matter was examined some time ago by a distinguished reporter who used to be in Lothian—Mr. Finlayson. It is certainly the case that, as he concluded in his report published by the Scottish Office in 1992, the reporters, as opposed to the children's panels, themselves should stay part of the local authority structure. But what must be appreciated is that his recommendations were based on what was the current local authority map in Scotland. His report made it clear that different considerations would need to be applied in the event of any fragmentation of local authorities. Given that there will be over 30 authorities in Scotland with these responsibilities, we propose that the reporter system should be run on a national basis with a principal reporter at the head.
It needs to be clearly understood that the proposal is warmly approved by the reporters themselves—around 85 per cent. or more in Scotland approved the proposal. I am not sure whether your Lordships are aware, among the voluminous briefing that was made available to the Committee, of the reporters' representations under the name of the Association of Children's Reporters. They said,
"The Reporter's Service has unique needs that require attention, irrespective of Local Government Reform, to ensure the necessary quality of service is provided for children and families. Part III of the Bill provides a positive means of meeting these specific needs".
The second point that the reporters made was that,
"The proposals under Part III of the Bill should not in any way diminish the local identity of the Reporter, but rather better equip the Reporter to serve the needs of the children in his/her community".
A number of concerns were expressed in some parts of Scotland in this regard—one was raised by my noble friend Lady Faithfull who asked about training. It is particularly in respect of training that reporters in Scotland wish to see change. They say that,
"Training—almost all Reporter's Departments are far too small to achieve effective and efficient in-house training. The obvious answer is a national programme but 18 years of discussion with CoSLA have produced nothing".
It is not as though there is a clear and distinguished record of training for these people who have extremely difficult responsibilities, and that that may be damaged; on the contrary, it is their belief that at long last they will be able to secure consistency in the training that they require.
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Another worry is that they will in some way lose their local influence. Again, that is a view that is open to question. The reporter from the Highland Region, writing to Mr. Robert Maclennan, MP, and a number of other noble Lords, said:
"Because of our small size it is easy to overstate the actual influence that we have with regards to services provided by other much larger local authority departments such as Social Work and Education".
He concludes:
"In fact it may well enhance reporter's ability to comment objectively on local authority services";
that is, as part of this national scheme.
In our view there is a very clear purpose behind the scheme and it is clearly desirable. What needs to be emphasised is that, while there will be an administration that backs up the principal reporter and the reporters throughout Scotland, that administration will not have any right to interfere with the decisions that reporters take day in and day out and in respect of which they exercise what might be described as a quasi-judicial function. The administration is there only to provide the administrative support.
What is being suggested in Amendments Nos. 133A and 135 is that reporters would be employed by different local authorities, but once again, rather surprisingly given the dislike that there is for joint boards and such arrangements, the Secretary of State would be ordering combinations of authorities to employ reporters. We do not believe that that is the right way forward. The new clauses seek an unsatisfactory half-way house between reporters employed by separate authorities and our central reporter service. Perhaps I may say in passing that, for some reason or other in the way the clause has been framed, it would appear that Dumfries and Galloway are not to be part of any reporter system at all.
That is the centre of all these provisions. The other two amendments—Amendments Nos. 132 and 133— seem to have an apprehension which I understand but which I believe is ill-founded. Section 33 of and Schedule 3 to the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968 require the formation of a children's panel for every local authority area. That reflects the intention that children's hearings be conducted by members residing in the locality from which the families attend. I have no doubt that that principle would be broadly approved of.
I suspect that this new clause has been introduced as a result of the anxiety expressed by some that as there are certain areas within the existing larger regional authorities where it is currently difficult to recruit new members, the new authorities in these areas will be unable to maintain the required number of members. While I understand the anxiety, I should say that from the time of the introduction of the system in 1971 until regional authorities were introduced, the previous smaller authorities are not recorded as having any major difficulty in recruiting panel members. The remedy which the new clause proposes seems to run counter to the community basis of panels and it would complicate the responsibilities of individual local authorities in administering children's panels.

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It is important to recognise that the new unitary authorities will restore the local identity in many ways and will have a new and, we believe, sharper focus on panel membership which will help to overcome any fears and problems over recruitment. Therefore, along with the other two amendments, I invite the Committee to reject Amendment No. 132.
As my noble friend Lord Balfour pointed out, Amendment No. 133 is at least in part met by an amendment put down at Report stage in another place and accepted for inclusion in the Bill. The amendment is therefore unnecessary, the point having been made and accepted.
6 p.m.
Lord Kirkhill: I cannot forbear intervening yet again to say to the noble and learned Lord that I find his reply to my earlier remarks disingenuous to say the least. The two principal arguments which the Committee is being asked to accept apparently, among a number of other arguments which are perfectly tolerable, are, first, that a cadre of officialdom—namely, about 85 per cent. of the reporters—have found that they like the new idea. Well, professionals are craven the world over. They would say that to maintain their area of professional security. It leaves me totally unimpressed. Secondly, we are being asked to believe that a reform of local government which is uncalled for and is entirely unnecessary is of such a fragmented character in terms of authority size that this has to be taken back to central control. That is a sad indictment of the whole of the Bill as it now stands.
Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove: I thank my noble friend Lord Kirkhill for intervening on this point because much of what he said I was going to say. Not just in relation to this but in relation to many aspects of the organisation of life in Scotland the Government are trying to patch up what they have attempted to destroy. My noble friend used the word "fragmented". Now the Government are trying to find a way round it.
I cannot help being amused when amateurs like ourselves—I mean noble Lords on this side of the Committee—miss out Dumfries and Galloway. When one thinks that rooms and houses in Barrhead and Newton Mearns were missed out by the experts, it is hardly surprising that we, with very little back up, make the odd mistake.
I should like to have one point cleared up. The Government continue to quote a referendum of reporters which was held some years ago as supporting the Government's proposals with a favourable vote in excess of 80 per cent. My information is that the referendum was not concerned with the Government's proposals as they presently exist. At that time there was no suggestion that there would be joint boards as is now intended for police and fire. The reporters were voting against the possibility of being reduced from the present local government structure to anything up to 50 separate small unitary authorities. They believed that that would not work and they are very conscious of the work that they do. The reporters have never voted on the issue of continuing the present framework with the additional refinement of joint authorities to answer the problems of the four smallest of the existing councils.
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There may be a reason for the misunderstanding. A misquotation of the reporters' referendum was used during the Committee stage in another place and it was probably provided to the noble and learned Lord mistakenly. The point should be cleared up. It needs to be clear and correct that it was an error. I hope the Minister will accept the fact—I am not sure that I am correct but I am fairly sure—that it was a misquotation that the reporters voted in the way that he suggested. The noble and learned Lord will be able to check and perhaps tell us later. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 133 and 133A not moved. ]
Clause 126 agreed to.
Lord Macaulay of Bragar Lord Macaulay of Bragar moved Amendment No. 134:
After Clause 126, insert the following new clause:
("Social Work: Reporter's Charter
. In section 36 of the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968 (the Reporter), after subsection (3) there shall be inserted—
"(4) Each Reporter will produce a Charter relating to such issues as the Secretary of State may by order define, including statements of the standards of service and hearings accommodation which are to be provided, and implementing an effective complaints procedure to ensure these standards arc met." ").
The noble Lord said: This amendment calls upon the Government to set upon the reporter the obligation to produce a charter indicating what standard:; the reporter system will achieve. It is a part of the Citizen's Charter which noble Lords on both sides of the Committee are quite prepared to accept. The amendment is grouped with Amendment No. 135A. The noble Earl, Lord Balfour, will no doubt have something to say about it. I beg to move.
The Earl of Balfour: I tabled Amendment No. 136 to leave out subsection (8) of Clause 127 because I felt that there needs to be, and I hope will be, close co-operation between the principal reporter and the administration. I was surprised to read,
"Nothing in this section or … this Act shall be taken as authorising the Administration to direct or guide the Principal Reporter in the performance of his functions".
I am surprised to see these words written into the statute. I very much hope that they can co-operate. It is purely on that point that I tabled this amendment.
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie: Perhaps I may deal with Amendment No. 134 first. In the fullness of time it may be wholly appropriate for the principal reporter and the board of administration to introduce a charter for the administration. It may be that there will be charters for each and every reporter in the service of the administration. I am sure that, in the same way, the noble Lord is aware that the Procurator Fiscal service in Scotland and how it performs, is part of the justice charter there. It would be not only unusual but inappropriate to prescribe in legislation that such a charter must be introduced. It is of prime importance to get the new service up and running as smoothly as possible. Once that is done, I would very much hope that such a charter would be produced along the lines

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which the noble Lord has suggested. On that basis, I take the view that it would not be right to include it within statute.
Amendment No. 135A appears to be a new tack by noble Lords in that it seeks to remove the general purpose of the administration to facilitate the performance of the principal reporter in carrying out his functions. Giving the principal reporter a list of functions to perform without the essential support which he would need to carry them out, seems to be unhelpful. It seems to be basically unsound to fail to define the essential purpose of the administration as designed to allow the principal reporter to perform effectively the full range of functions which the Bill provides for him. It should be borne in mind also that Clause 127(8) makes it explicit that nothing authorises the administration to direct or guide the principal reporter in the carrying out of his functions under the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968 and the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1975.
Amendment No. 136 would remove the independence of the principal reporter in the exercise of his professional decision-making in relation to his statutory functions under these two Acts.
I would have considered that to be a separation and an independence of quite crucial importance. We want to leave the principal reporter within the system in Scotland in a position where he can exercise his important professional decision-making independent of any interference. That has been an important element in the operation of the hearings system since its inception. It has ensured that reporters exercise decisions on cases referred to them without being exposed to external influence and do so solely in the best interest of the children. They are not a craven bunch of officials, as the noble Lord, Lord Kirkhill, indicated, but serious-minded, independent people who have a number of very difficult decisions to take; for example, particularly when they have to determine what should happen when information or evidence is brought to them about child abuse within the home.
It would be very dangerous to change that safeguard and there is certainly no need to do so because of the changeover to a reporter's administration. It would be vested in the principal reporter and in his staff who would deal by delegation with the local referrals made to them.
It will be necessary for the new administration to be able to direct or guide the principal reporter as to how the various duties and management functions of his task are carried out but in the exercise of professional decision-making on individual cases it would seem right that there is no pressure that can be brought to bear on him. With that explanation, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Kirkhill: I intervene to say to the noble and learned Lord that I have no objection at all to his making reference to any comments I made earlier; but he should
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be more accurate in his reference. As far as craven officialdom is concerned, I said "all officials as well as these". I did not specifically refer to reporters.
Lord Macaulay of Bragar: Having heard the explanation of the Minister, I have no doubt that it will be read with interest by those concerned with the exercise of juvenile justice. We shall return at a later stage and see how things stand then. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 135 not moved. ]
Clause 127[The Scottish Children's Reporter Administration]
[Amendments Nos. 135A and 136 not moved. ]
Clause 27 agreed to.
Schedule 12 [Status, constitution and proceedings of the Scottish Children's Reporter Administration]:
[Amendments Nos. 137 to 139 not moved. ]
Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove moved Amendment No. 140:
Page 159, line 36, at end insert:
("(4) The Administration shall keep account of all transactions and shall prepare and publish a statement of accounts for each financial year to 31st March to be audited by an officer of the Commission of Local Authority Accounts or an approved auditor appointed by the Commissioner.").
The noble Lord said: This is a technical amendment and in some ways one is surprised that it has not appeared automatically in the Bill. The administration should make sure that the financial affairs of the organisation are subject to independent audit. The justification is that it will be dealing with significant public funds and statutory provision should be made for the appointment of an independent auditor by the Commission of Local Authority Accounts which will be in a position to ensure propriety and accountability. I should have thought that that was an automatic thing. The Minister may say that it will be automatic, but it would be better if we were told that that was the case. I beg to move.
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie: As I understand it, Amendment No. 140 would seek to impose an arrangement for auditing in the event of the earlier proposals in Amendments Nos. 137, 138 and 139 being introduced whereby the board was made up of elected local authority members. If I now understand the noble Lord to be suggesting that this should be imposed independently of any change that might be made to the composition of the administration, that would seem to be unnecessary because in any event there would be clear auditing and accountability in relation to any sums expended by that administration.
Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove: I thank the Minister for his reply. He has given the assurance that I was asking for. I am happy to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Schedule 12 agreed to.
Clauses 128 to 130 agreed to.
Clause 131 [Duty of Administration to provide accommodation etc. for children's hearings]:
[Amendment No. 140A not moved. ]
Clause 131 agreed to.
Clauses 132 and 133 agreed to.
Clause 134 [Government grants to the Administration]:
[Amendment No. 140B not moved. ]
Clause 134 agreed to.
Clauses 135 to 137 agreed to.
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy Lady Saltoun of Abernethy moved Amendment No. 141:
Before Clause 138, insert the following new clause:
("Community care planning
. In subsection (3) of section 5A of the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968, after paragraph (a) there shall be inserted—
"(b) any other local authority, in so far as it appears to the authority that the plan or, as the case may be, the review may affect or be affected by the provision or availability of community care services or housing within the area of the other authority."").
The noble Lady said: Any noble Lord who has looked at the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968 may wonder how on earth these amendments fit into it. In fact, Amendment No. 141 slots into Section 5A, as amended by Section 52 of the National Health Service and Community Care Act 1990, and Amendment No. 142 slots in after Section 12A, as amended by Section 55 of the National Health Service and Community Care Act 1990.
Amendment No. 141 highlights what appears to be a technical omission from the Bill but also raises issues of real importance about how community care services will be planned following reorganisation. As recently as 1992, the Government introduced a new system of community care planning by social work departments. The aim was to ensure that there were clear strategic three-year plans for the development of community care and that councils would be accountable to the public for producing and meeting those plans. That development had widespread support. It meant that it was possible to compare the services that were available with those that were needed, particularly for groups such as people coming out of long-stay hospitals and the increasing numbers of elderly people.
Before the community care plan is produced, the social work department must consult with a range of agencies, including health boards, housing departments and the voluntary sector. In Schedule 14, the requirement to consult housing departments is deleted since they will be part of the same council in the future. The aim of the amendment is to replace that requirement with a new duty to consult other neighbouring councils where appropriate. That is needed because many of the new authorities will be too small either to prepare a strategic plan or to provide all the specialised social work services that are needed in their area.
The Government expect those authorities to buy in services from other councils using the new powers in Clause 57. Therefore, if a small council, like Inverclyde, is to prepare a practicable community care plan, it will need to know what it will be able to buy from a large council like Glasgow. Similarly, a council which sells services to other councils needs to know what the likely
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demand will be before planning future developments. It is also important that service users in other council areas have some mechanism to influence plans for services which affect them. No doubt many councils will consult informally with other councils, but surely it would be better to have a formal requirement to ensure that plans are not produced without proper consultation of the wider consequences for other councils.
The amendment also gives the Government an opportunity to clarify how health boards fit into the new system. Currently, the Government place great emphasis on the desirability of health boards and social work departments agreeing a joint plan. That will be much more difficult with many of the new boundaries. Will the Government create incentives to encourage smaller councils to plan together, perhaps over a health board area?
Amendment No. 142 places a duty on local authorities to co-operate in providing social services. It is similar to the existing duties of housing and social work departments to co-operate to meet the needs of homeless people. Indeed, the health boards and social work departments have a duty to co-operate in community care. The new clause is needed because not all the new authorities will be able to provide the specialised services that are required for those whose needs for care are profound or complex, such as children who are both blind and deaf, or people with profound learning disabilities. A council may seek to buy the service from another council or another agency. However, there are two concerns: whether the service will be available and what type of service it will be.
Social work departments are under great financial pressure and naturally tend to give priority to those things which they have a statutory duty to do. The first priority of the new councils must be their own population. A council may want to buy in a service from another council but the other council may not want to sell it. A duty to co-operate would make it more likely that the council with the appropriate service would consider selling that service or expanding the service to meet the needs of other areas. As far as the quality of the services is concerned, the proposed duty may help to counteract a threat of the new arrangements—that of a return to greater institutional provision.
The Government, the social work profession and the voluntary sector all advocate small-scale local services designed to help children and adults to live in their own communities with as much independence as possible. However, if small authorities are planning to buy in services from elsewhere —for example, for a young person with severe learning disabilities and physical disabilities—it is much easier to enter a contract to place that person in a residential home than to arrange for someone else to provide the specialised day care, respite, adaptation and other support in the area where that person lives. The duty to co-operate will provide a framework for joint provision for those services.
Those fears are not merely hypothetical. In its submission on the Bill, the Association of Directors of Social Work stated:
"Past experience of joint arrangements is not good, being too fragile and vulnerable to political expediencies. In addition, such arrangements in the past often led to services being provided at a considerable distance from the clients".
We want to ensure that that is not the consequence of the new reform, particularly for services in the first few years following reorganisation when uncertainty is bound to be at its height. I beg to move.
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie: The amendments seek to ensure that the new authorities suitably inform and co-operate with one another over the purchase and provision of community care services. I say immediately that I fully concur with the aims of the amendments.
The re-organisation of local government may well increase the amount of contracting for services by authorities and the level of inter-agency trading but, as the noble Lady indicated, that is not an entirely new phenomenon for social work departments. For many years they have been co-operating with and purchasing services from one another and from the voluntary and private sectors. Expertise in such transactions and, as important, good will in co-operating with each other have long been evident in the development of social work services.
The amendment on community care plans would require local authorities, where cross-boundary purchasing was in prospect or in practice, to consult one another on their community care plans.
These plans take a strategic view of the needs of the area and how these are to be met. The procuring of a service, on the other hand, is generally an operational activity and while community care plans address the purchasing of services they do so from a strategic perspective. In most instances of cross-boundary activity, purchasing will not be of strategic importance but part of the effective delivery of a service. I am not therefore in favour of a mandatory requirement to consult, which is what the amendment suggests, but I accept that there will be a need for fresh guidance on the preparation of certain parts of authorities' community care plans.
The amendment requiring an authority to co-operate in provision of a service for a resident of another authority could interfere with the good sense which we believe already governs the co-operation between authorities on such matters. Unless such an amendment was accompanied by extensive rules on the extent of co-operation which should be considered reasonable, the amendment could lead to a local authority losing control of its own resources. No one would want to burden social work departments with unnecessary and extensive rules. I imagine that we would all prefer to see any co-operation being voluntary.
I hope with that brief explanation of our standpoint on the amendment that I have gone some way towards allaying the noble Lady's concerns. The purpose lying behind her worthwhile amendment can be achieved through current legislation and working practices,
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together, as I said a moment ago, with revised guidance. I hope that with that indication the noble Lady will feel able to withdraw her amendment.
6.30 p.m.
Lord Macaulay of Bragar: Before the Minister sits down, will he tell us something about the costing of everything that is happening with local authorities? I know that it might annoy the Minister that we keep asking about the costing of care in the community, but one day that bird will come home to roost, and we shall have a great many people out in the community dependent upon the local authority to cost their viability within the community. The word "strategic" was used three or four times by the Minister in his answer. What will the government strategy be when money becomes short and people are left walking the streets? I can assure the Committee that some people will be left doing that. I have seen one or two of them in my area.
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie: The noble Lord takes me slightly wide of the amendment. We have now completed the first year of the changes to care in the community in Scotland. Generally speaking, they have gone much better than was thought by central government and local government. I compliment those who have worked so hard to make the change so much more successful than some feared it would be at the outset.
I do not believe that accusations levelled against the Government in Scotland that the funding provided for the change of responsibility to local government for taking on care in the community can be justified. We provided last year, and are providing this year, more money than would have been payable had the existing arrangements through the DSS persisted. When I have met those responsible for the delivery of the services in Scotland, they have asked me to continue with the existing ringfencing arrangements. From that I take it that they have discovered that they have sufficient money. They were concerned that, were the ringfencing not to persist, some of the funding that should properly have gone to care in the community might have been deployed to other services. I do not accept that there can be any criticism of the funding at present.
Lord Macaulay of Bragar: Perhaps I could ask for clarification. We are not accusing anyone of anything. We all have the common purpose to ensure that people are cared for properly in the community. I do not like the word "accusation". We are not accusing anyone of anything. We are trying to do our best for the unfortunate people who have to be catered for within the community.
Lord Hughes: The Minister said that mandatory arrangements could result in a local authority losing control of its resources. But the last words of Amendment No. 142 seem to prevent that because the local authority has to do only such:
"as is reasonable in the circumstances".

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If the effect of the co-operation would be that a local authority would lose control of its resources that could not be regarded as a reasonable position.
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie: With respect to the noble Lord, he might like to consider what I said. When I talked about a mandatory requirement, I was talking about one of the earlier amendments. I accept the point that the noble Lord makes—that Amendment No. 142 is so qualified in that the co-operation should be:
"as is reasonable in the circumstances".
What I said about that was that it concerned me that we would have to set out extensive and elaborate rules to determine what was reasonable. It was in that context that I offered my objection to the amendment. It was not on the basis of a mandatory requirement. That was in respect of the earlier amendment.
Lord Kirkhill: Will the Minister add something to the reply he gave to my noble friend Lord Macaulay of Bragar? The Minister said that the present policy is more successful than central government thought that it would be. I think I am right in saying that he said that it was probably more successful than many of its critics thought it likely to be. Does the Minister think that it is more successful than the policy which preceded it? That is the key question. It is the question to which critics turn increasingly.
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie: I believe that it is more satisfactory. I was not aware that there was any political party in the United Kingdom that took objection to the general thrust of care in the community. When I referred to suspicions about it, I was saying that social work departments were being given a new and important responsibility. In some respects they were taking over responsibility from the NHS. I believe that there were suspicions on both sides. There were suspicions among social workers about the NHS and vice versa. I am pleased again to place on record that some of those concerns have proved to be illusory. Much of the co-operation when people have come out of long-stay hospitals has been excellent. I do not know whether the noble Lord is aware of a proposal in Edinburgh in relation to those who have learning difficulties. Elaborate plans have been put together there by Lothian Health Board and Lothian Region. It is a good example of good co-operation.
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy: I listened carefully to what was said and, in particular, to what the Minister said. If most local authorities are already co-operating, I can see no great difficulty in putting the duty to co-operate on to the face of the Bill. Most may be co-operating well, but I have quoted the reservations on the subject of the Association of Directors of Social Work. I should be much happier to see something definite on the face of the Bill, even if a few rules and regulations do have to be provided.
The Minister referred to guidelines. Will it be possible to see a draft of those guidelines?
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie: Perhaps I may elaborate on that point a little. Guidance is already issued to regional and Highland and Island authorities at present
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on how they should set out their community care plans. I am suggesting that that guidance should be revised. The guidance to local authorities will in no sense be secret. It will be for all to see. If there are directors of social work who have proposals or recommendations to offer as to how that guidance should be set out, I should be pleased to hear them.
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy: I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. In the meantime, I am happy to withdraw the amendment, reserving, of course, the right to come back to this on Report.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 142 not moved. ]
Clause 138 agreed to.
Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrovehad given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 143:
After Clause 138, insert the following new clause:
("Local authority social work committee
.;—(1) Every local authority shall establish a social work committee for the purposes of their functions under the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968.
(2) Except as otherwise expressly provided, all matters relating to the performance of their functions under the following enactments—

(a) this Act as read with sections 1 and 2(1) of the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act 1970 and the Disabled Persons (Services, Consultation and Representations) Act 1986,

(b) Part IV of the Children and Young Persons (Scotland) Act 1937,

(c) the Disabled Persons (Employment) Act 1958,

(d) sections 10 to 12 of the Matrimonial Proceedings (Children) Act 1958 and sections 11 and 12 of the Guardianship Act 1973,

(e) the Foster Children (Scotland) Act 1984,

(f) the Adoption Act 1958,

(g) section 101(1) of the Housing Act 1964,

(h) section 9(1) (b) of the Housing (Homeless Persons) Act 1977 and the enactments mentioned in subsection (4) of that section,

(i) the Children Act 1975,

(j) the Adoption (Scotland) Act 1978,

(k) section 19 and Part X of the Children Act 1989,

(l) sections 21 to 23 of the Health and Social Services and Social Security Adjudications Act 1983, and

(m) the Access to Personal Files Act 1987,

shall stand referred to the social work committee, and before exercising any of the said functions the authority shall, unless the matter is urgent, consider a report of the social work committee with respect thereto.").
The noble Lord said: I understand that this amendment has already been debated. I do not doubt that, but in many ways the Bill is a mishmash. We are used to that these days. Will the Minister say when the amendment was debated in order that I can read it in Hansard before the Report stage?
The Earl of Balfour: It was discussed last night, after Clause 46, with Amendment No. 95E.
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie: I was aware that it had been discussed earlier and I am grateful to my noble friend for being so precise.
[Amendment No. 143 not moved. ]
[Amendments Nos. 144 and 144A not moved. ]
Clause 139 agreed to.
Clause 140 [Byelaws under section 121 of the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982]:
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy Lady Saltoun of Abernethy moved Amendment No. 144B:
Page 97, line 27, at end insert:
("(d) in subsection (5) at the end there shall be inserted—
"and the local authority shall not proceed to make the byelaws if, within that period, one third or more of the persons having a proprietorial interest such as is mentioned, in relation to the byelaws, in paragraph (a) above have submitted written objection to the byelaws to the local authority."").
The noble Lady said: First, I had better declare a non-interest before I am taken to task for not doing so by the noble Lord, Lord Mowbray and Stourton, after he has read Hansard. My family have about six miles of the upper River Dee but I have no interest in the trust to which it belongs. I have about half a mile of river, which has nothing in it, in another part of Scotland.
Clause 140 was introduced by the Government in order to amend the existing legislation which required 100 per cent. approval of riparian owners before a by-law could be made. That has made it extremely difficult for local authorities to introduce the necessary by-laws in relation to, for instance, Loch Lomond, which are desired by both the public at large and by a vast majority of the riparian owners themselves. The principle of the new Clause 140 is therefore widely accepted by the Scottish Landowners' Federation, and in particular by riparian owners around Loch Tay and Loch Lomond.
However, the wording has gone too far. It now dispenses with the need for any approval by riparian owners and provides no alternative method of dealing with their interests, such as providing for a right of protection. That is unsatisfactory, in particular as the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982 recognises that the interests of landowners are important. After all, they are ultimately responsible for the economic and environmental management of not only the shore but also the loch itself and the fish therein.
On the basis of the legislation as it is currently proposed, riparian owners who object to the making of a by-law would have to vote that the Secretary of State, at the stage of deciding whether to confirm the by-laws, would take proper account of their objections. The legislation should provide proper protection for these interests but at the same time it should not present any undue difficulty or delay in the making of by-laws.
My amendment provides that the local authority may make the by-laws unless at least one-third of the proprietors object. I am sure that Members of the Committee will agree that if there were such strong objection, it would not be appropriate for the by-laws to be made and confirmed, and it would therefore be distinctly preferable for that to be enshrined in statute rather than left to the discretion of the Secretary of State.
The amendment has the support of riparian owners around Loch Lomond. It will allow for the very necessary flexibility that is now needed by local authorities to introduce by-laws in these important areas while at the same time making sure that the interests of those who are ultimately responsible for the economic and environmental management of the shore and the loch are properly safeguarded. I beg to move.
6.45 p.m.
The Earl of Balfour: I support the principle behind the amendment. I realise what the Government are trying to do in amending Section 121 of the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982. The difficulty is that under that section a single objector, who is a proprietor too, can object to the local authority making a by-law dealing with environmental health, people driving cars over the beach or whatever. Section 121(5) (b) of the Act states:
"Byelaws may be made under this section only if … subject to subsection (7) below, every person having a proprietorial interest such as is mentioned, in relation to the byelaws, in paragraph (a) above has consented to their being made".
That means that the local authority can be penalised by one awkward person.
Subsection (5) (b) of the Act is being replaced by Clause 140 of the Bill. Under the new clause, all the adjoining proprietors can object and the local authority can still make the by-laws. That is equally unfair. At least a proportion of the adjoining proprietors should have the opportunity of objecting to those by-laws being made.
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie: We have given much careful thought to the amendment proposed by the noble Lady. We recognise that there is a genuine fear among certain proprietors that the clause as it currently stands removes their previous right to have their views taken into account when local authorities are making by-laws on these waters.
It may be helpful if I explain that the purpose of this clause is to make it possible, once again, for the local authorities to make by-laws on the seashore, adjacent waters and inland waters. As the legislation currently stands, one individual with a proprietorial interest in the water, the area of which could be as large as Loch Lomond, can block the process of making by-laws. The existing legislation does not allow local authorities to proceed while any objections are maintained.
That is not just a theoretical difficulty. In Loch Lomond the authorities have been trying for three years, without success, to make by-laws. Some of those by-laws control speedboats. Members of the Committee who live in Scotland will remember that last year there was an unpleasant and unfortunate fatal accident on Loch Lomond involving speedboats.
This new clause is designed to do away with the automatic right of an individual or group of individuals to thwart the by-law-making process. However, what has been omitted from our discussions on the provision is that, as a safeguard, by-laws come before the Secretary of State for confirmation. In turn, he may hold a public inquiry should he deem that necessary or desirable.

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I believe that that is the correct way for decisions of that nature to be made. The views of those with a proprietorial interest in the water will be considered carefully by the relevant local authorities. It would be short-sighted and foolish of them not to do so. But equally, the needs of the general public must be balanced alongside those who have a proprietorial interest and their needs must sometimes come before the particular needs and interests of proprietors.
The amendment offers a system which, administratively, would be extremely difficult to operate, given that the clause will apply to the seashore, adjacent waters and inland waters throughout Scotland. In popular areas it may be not merely difficult but impossible to establish how many people have a proprietorial interest. Clearly, one cannot establish what is a third unless the number of all those with a proprietorial interest is known.
Perhaps I may use again the example of a loch. The proposed by-law may be in relation to speedboats. A speedboat club may have 200 or 250 members but the club may own only a very small frontage on to the water. Therefore, those members have an interest in the water but they could provide the blocking minority in circumstances where other proprietors with much larger frontages agreed with the proposal.
While I understand what drives the noble Lady to bring forward the amendment, I believe that there would be a great deal of administrative difficulty in trying to operate it. I hope that the noble Lady will accept that the amendment is unnecessary and that she will be reassured by the requirement that the Secretary of State shall confirm by-laws. Clearly, when he is looking to see whether he should make that confirmation or whether there should be a public inquiry, it would be part of his responsibility to have regard to any representations from those with a proprietorial interest.
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy: I have listened very carefully to what the noble and learned Lord has said. I shall read it with care. Meanwhile, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 140 agreed to.
Clauses 141 and 142 agreed to.
Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove moved Amendment No. 144C:
After Clause 142, insert the following new clause:
(" . After section 28A(4) of the Education (Scotland) Act 1980, there shall be inserted—
Restricted admission to schools
"( ) If, notwithstanding subsection (3) (a) to (e) above, the education authority, having regard to historical patterns of migration existing planning permissions for residential development in their area, considers it necessary in exceptional circumstances to restrict admission to a stage of education at the specified school in order to secure the availability of places for pupils ordinarily resident within the delineated area of the specified school at any time during the school year; provided that the education authority shall not so restrict admission beyond the minimum number of places reasonably anticipated by them as necessary for that purpose at any stage and that a statement of reasons is provided to any person whose placing request has been refused on these grounds".").
The noble Lord said: This is a probing amendment. The Minister has been a Member of the other place and, having had a constituency to look after, he must be aware that school placements is one of the most difficult and intractable problems that there can be. A school may have a reputation which is 40 or 50 years old. It may no longer live up to that reputation but then; may still be certain eagerness on the part of parents to send their children to that school.
I understand the point about new building and that if an area is to be released for housing, that will affect schools. But how does the Minister expect the clause to help parents who wish to send their children to one school as opposed to another? Of course, that is a problem which is more likely to arise in a city rather than in a country area. I know that there are selective schools which are usually fee paying and they set their own standards. I am sure that the Minister will understand the problems in this regard. When one writes to Ministers about such matters one receives nice gentle replies but, when one reads them, one realises that not a great deal has been said. Therefore, I repeat that this is a probing amendment and I beg to move.
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie: I am happy to respond to the noble Lord on what is a difficult issue. Nevertheless, I should point out that the policy of allowing placing requests has been extremely successful. Some 250,000 children in Scotland have benefited from the scheme since it was started in 1981. Before we overstate the difficulties which may arise, it is worth recording that over 90 per cent. of all placing requests have been successful. That is a popular policy because parents like the opportunity to make a choice.
I can see why education authorities might favour an amendment of this nature. But I do not believe that changes should lightly be made to the placing request system. I also have to say that the matter is not straightforward and, indeed, that there are drawbacks to the amendment which has been tabled.
The amendment is intended to permit authorities to hold back places at a specified school against the possibility of pupils moving during the school year into the area served by that school either into existing housing stock or into housing not yet built but for which planning permission has been granted.
There is clearly an element of speculation in that. Migration of pupils into existing housing stock may not be as anticipated. Houses for which planning permission has been granted may not be built in the year concerned. Or fewer children may move into them than anticipated.
In saying that, I recognise that the amendment does endeavour to address the possibility of authorities overestimating the need to hold back places by providing that restrictions on admissions should be at a minimum and that a statement of reasons for so doing should be provided to any person whose placing request has been refused on those grounds. Nevertheless, there is clearly an element of speculation and an amendment of this nature could lead to some places at popular schools simply lying unused.

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Moreover, essentially this amendment would allow authorities to turn down different pupils from those who might be turned down at present. Where there is surplus demand for a school, some parents are always going to be disappointed, no matter what arrangements apply.
So I have to say that the Government are not at present persuaded that the intention behind this particular amendment should be implemented, or indeed that the case has been made that the placing request system should be amended at all. There is undoubtedly force in the view generally that the present arrangements allowing maximum parental choice are preferable to restrictions which would inevitably have the effect of reducing choice.
But in this debate I do not wish to go further than to express reservations about what is proposed. The noble Lord said that this was a probing amendment. Of course we are dealing with a Bill relating to local government reform. In our view, matters which are not strictly related to that subject should be inserted into the Bill only in exceptional circumstances. Also, although I realise that it is a probing amendment, I should point out that there is a drafting defect in it. However, in the light of that explanation, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove: I thank the Minister for that reply, which I shall read with great care. It may be that the amendment does not cover as much ground as we hoped it would do, even as a probing amendment. However, I cannot think of any words which could be used to clarify that.
What sort of consultation was carried out before some of the decisions were made? The Minister said that 90 per cent. of placing requests had been successful. I wonder how many parents have been discouraged before they even reached the point of making a choice.
I shall read the Minister's response and look forward, perhaps, to him returning at the next stage with some sort of revision if he thinks that it is necessary. Otherwise, because of the pressure placed upon us, we may find it necessary to raise the matter again. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 143 agreed to.
7 p.m.
Lord Lucas: I beg to move that the House do now resume. In moving the Motion, I suggest that the Committee stage begin again not before 8 p.m.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House resumed.

Criminal Justice (Northern Ireland) Order 1994
7.1 p.m.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Baroness Denton of Wakefield)The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Baroness Denton of Wakefield) rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 14th June be approved.
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, the order would introduce provisions broadly in line with those already in force in Great Britain in the Criminal Justice Acts of 1988 and 1991 and the Sexual Offences (Amendment) Act 1992. Its main purpose is to update the maximum fines and other penalties which may be imposed by the courts and to strengthen the law on anonymity for victims of alleged sexual offences.
One provision has been added to the order since the draft order was published. The Department of the Environment requested that the order carry additional provisions relating to the forfeiture of vehicles used for committing a crime and the disqualification of drivers who use vehicles to commit assault.
I turn now to the main provisions of the order. Article 3 increases various fine maxima. As a consequence, Article 4 makes adjustments to the maximum terms of imprisonment which may be imposed for non-payment of such fines.
Article 10 increases penalties for pollution and bomb hoaxes. To cater for the most serious cases, offences of polluting waterways under fisheries legislation are reclassified so that they may be tried in the Crown court. Noble Lords will be well aware of the disruption caused to everyday life in Northern Ireland by terrorists' use of violence. Another means of disruption is the use of bomb hoaxes. The Government take a particularly serious view of that nuisance and have decided to increase the maximum penalty on summary conviction from three to six months and on indictment from five to seven years. That is in line with recent changes for England and Wales.
Articles 11 to 17 make amendments to the powers of courts to deprive offenders of property used in crime and to award compensation to their victims.
I am sure that noble Lords will join with me in welcoming Part III of the order, dealing with anonymity in cases of rape and other sexual offences. The provisions will provide victims with the protection of anonymity from an earlier stage than is currently the case. It is hoped that the provisions will also encourage more victims to come forward and report offences to the police. It has been widely recognised that fear of publicity is often a factor influential in discouraging victims of sexual offences from reporting offences to the police.
The order is short and its provisions diverse. However, I hope that noble Lords will agree that it strengthens and improves the criminal law in Northern Ireland by balancing tougher penalties for offenders within provisions which recognise the needs of, and allow greater compensation for, the victims of crime. I beg to move.
Moved, That the draft Order laid before the House on 14th June be approved.—(Baroness Denton of Wakefield.)
Lord Morris of Castle Morris: My Lords, the House will be grateful to the Minister for explaining the order in words which seem strangely familiar to me. I have read it carefully; it was fully considered in another place on 7th July, when my honourable friend the Member for Kingston Upon Hull North broadly welcomed the order, as I do.
Lord Holme of Cheltenham: My Lords, I must apologise to the Minister for not being in my place when she rose to speak a moment or two ago. Her deftness and speed at the Dispatch Box were such that I was not able to keep up. In my view, and in that of other noble Lords on these Benches, the order rightly extends anonymity to victims of alleged sexual offences other than rape while abolishing the defendant's right to anonymity in rape cases.
It seems to me that the justifications for anonymity being extended to alleged victims of rape are that the legal process can be seen as so traumatic that actual rape victims may be discouraged from coming forward and that alleged rape victims may be ill thought of. I believe that that argument extends quite easily to other sexual offences, so that extending the right of anonymity to other victims seems to be justified.
However, I should like briefly to raise with the Minister the counter question of removing the defendant's right to anonymity in rape cases, which seems far less clear cut. The Minister will be aware that in more than 60 per cent. of reported rape cases the defendant and plaintiff are acquainted. Therefore, in such circumstances, a right of anonymity for the plaintiff can be very seriously undermined if the name of the defendant is made public.
I believe that the low conviction rate in rape cases has led to a certain amount of public mistrust as regards the ability of the courts to punish rapists. There are cases of men accused of rape being found not guilty and yet, subsequently, facing discrimination in their workplace and losing their reputation as though they had somehow slipped through the net. It is clearly extremely damaging to be accused of being a rapist; indeed, in some ways, it may be more damaging—in fact, totally so—than to be marked as having been raped. I simply raise such matters for the Minister's consideration. I have no intention of opposing the order. I believe that the extension of anonymity to victims is wholly desirable.
However, I have one further question to put to the Minister. Given the fact that the recent amendment to the criminal justice Bill for the rest of the United Kingdom recognises male rape, is it the Government's intention that a similar amendment will also be made for Northern Ireland?
Baroness Denton of Wakefield: My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their comments. I quite understand that the speed of this evening's proceedings on Northern Ireland rather contrasts with that of yesterday evening. I am most grateful to the welcome given to the order.
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Indeed, much that is already in law as regards Great Britain does extend to Northern Ireland, However, we have our own body of law in Northern Ireland.
I can tell the noble Lord, Lord Holme of Cheltenham, that the Secretary of State would give separate consideration as to whether Northern Ireland should follow in due course the changes made on the question of rape in England and Wales. In that consideration, I am sure that the Secretary of State will take into account the very serious matters raised by the noble Lord. Having said that, I commend the order to the House.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Viscount Long: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure until 8 p.m.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
[The Sitting was suspended from 7.8 to 8 p.m. ]

Local Government etc. (Scotland) Bill
House again in Committee.
Lord Macaulay of Bragar Lord Macaulay of Bragar moved Amendment No. 145:
After Clause 143, insert the following new clause:
("Further provision relating to non-denominational schools
. After section 22D of the Education (Scotland) Act 1980, there shall be inserted the following section—
"Further provisions relating to non-denominational schools.
22E.—(1) An education authority shall submit to the Secretary of State for his consent any proposal of theirs to which this section applies and shall not implement such a proposal without his consent.
(2) A proposal to which this section applies is one—

(a) to—

(i) discontinue the school or a part or it;

(ii) amalgamate the school or a part of it with another school;

(iii) change the site of the school;

(iv) change the arrangements for admission to the school.

(b) in relation to which the Secretary of State, having consulted any education authority affected by it, is satisfied, upon written representations made, that, if implemented, it will have any of the results specified in subsection (3) below.

(3) The results referred to in subsection (2) (b) above are—

(a) a significant deterioration for pupils belonging to the area of the education authority submitting the proposal under subsection (1) above; or

(b) a significant deterioration for pupils belonging to the area of any other education authority; or

(c) where neither paragraph (a) nor paragraph (b) above applies, such a deterioration for pupils as mentioned in the said paragraph (a) and pupils of any other authority as mentioned in the said paragraph (b) as, taken together, amounts to a significant deterioration, in the provision, or availability of school education in a particular school compared with such provision, or availability in other schools managed by the education authority mentioned in paragraph (a) above or, where paragraph (b) or (c) above applies, any other education authority as mentioned in the said paragraph (b).

(4) Any question which may arise—

(a) whether a proposal is one to which this section applies;

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(b) as to the implementation of a proposal to which the Secretary of State has consented under this section shall be determined by the Secretary of State and the education authority shall perform their duties under this Act in accordance with any such determination." ").

The noble Lord said: In the absence of my noble friend Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove and also my noble friend Lord Ewing of Kirkford, I formally move this amendment and ask for the Government's response to it. I beg to move.
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie: The Government's view on this is that we would not wish to intervene in what are essentially local matters. What has been proposed would substantially restrict the freedom of authorities to deal with catchment area and feeder primary changes and could also frustrate attempts by authorities to rationalise over-provision. It would, in effect, draw the Secretary of State into most, if not all, decisions affecting proposed school closures, proposed site changes, proposed amalgamations and proposed changes to admission arrangements. We could not agree to such a restriction on local autonomy. Again, I make the point that we have sought to extend that autonomy but once again we are met with an amendment that would involve the Secretary of State in a way that he would not wish to be involved; a key objective of the Bill being to give authorities greater flexibility. This is a centralising proposal which would go against the principle of the Bill.
I am also concerned that, because the new clause as drafted would apply to all schools, both denominational and non-denominational, a considerable amount of confusion would exist as regards existing safeguards for denominational schools as already contained in Section 22D of the 1980 Act. The impact of the new clause would be to limit the requirement of consent under Section 22D, in effect, only to a proposal to change a denominational school into a non-denominational school. It is not at all clear what account should be taken of the arrangements to be made for the religious instruction of pupils in denominational schools currently set out in Section 22D. Finally, it would require the Secretary of State's consent even if the denominational body agrees to the proposal.
So the new clause is essentially a centralising measure—that is our objection to it—and, no doubt inadvertently, would weaken the safeguards which apply to denominational schools. We consider it is mistaken on another count also. It is plain that the impetus behind the clause is, at least in part, a feeling that additional protection is being offered in the Bill to denominational schools but not to non-denominational schools. That is not the case. Nothing in this Bill introduces new safeguards for denominational education. Moreover, the same safeguards as exist at present for non-denominational schools will continue to apply in all cases—cross-boundary or otherwise—after local government reform.
Lord Macaulay of Bragar: I am grateful to the Minister for that reply, which no doubt will be of great interest to those involved in this issue in Scotland.
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Although my name is not down to the amendment, I wonder whether the time has come to look at the whole question of so-called non-denominational schools and denominational schools within the community as a whole. However, I do not expect the Minister to answer that question because it is a major question as regards Scotland. Subject to that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 144 agreed to.
The Viscount of Falkland The Viscount of Falkland moved Amendment No. 145A:
After Clause 144, insert the following new clause:
("Provision of Nursery Education

.—(1) Section 1(2) of the Education (Scotland) Act 1980 shall be repealed.

(2) It shall be the duty of every local education authority to secure that educational provision is available for any junior pupil who has attained the age of three years and has not attained the age of five years and whose parents or guardian indicate that they desire such provision to be provided, according to guidelines issued by Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Schools.

(3) The Secretary of State shall satisfy himself in respect of each financial year in which this section has effect that the resources available to local education authorities are adequate to enable them to fulfil the requirements of this section.").

The noble Viscount said: I am always diffident when I rise to speak on matters concerning Scotland as I am only a Scotsman really by naturalisation. I spent some time in Scotland at school and this amendment has to do with nursery school provision in Scotland. My son went to school in Scotland and I hope that the Committee will accept my presence here to press—I see the noble and learned Lord shaking his head but I shall carry on regardless—my case.
I think it is most appropriate that I should follow up a debate which I introduced in this Chamber earlier in the year where a measure of agreement was reached throughout the Chamber and helpful remarks were made by the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, on behalf of the Government as regards the desirability of providing pre-school education within the United Kingdom in general.
Over many years in this country we have received promises as regards the prospect of an increased provision of nursery school education. Those promises have been given by various administrations. Indeed, the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher, when she was Mrs. Thatcher and held the post of Secretary of State for Education, gave her support to the concept of nursery provision for all. Some 22 years on we find that the United Kingdom, and particularly Scotland, are very under-provided as regards pre-school education. This is a very sad state of affairs because I think there is no disagreement, certainly across the parties, and probably in Scotland and indeed in England as a whole, as regards the desirability of pre-school education.
If nursery school or pre-school education were provided where appropriate for let us say, up to even 60 per cent. of children, that would constitute an enormous improvement and would have a quite dramatic effect not only on the abilities of children entering full-time statutory education at the age of five in terms of

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enabling them to adjust to that more quickly, but it would also have a beneficial effect on the level of juvenile crime and on the lives of parents. If pre-school education were available for that percentage of children, the position in this country would be brought more in line with the position in other countries in Europe, particularly France and Belgium. Although there are particular reasons for the level of provision in those countries, for example in France there is a relative scarcity of part-time jobs for women, and most women undertake full-time jobs and therefore nursery school provision, or something like it, is essential, it is desirable that we should at least narrow the gap between ourselves and other European countries in this regard.
It seems appropriate that Scotland with its tradition of taking a serious approach to education should be the place to start as regards making this provision. When I introduced my debate on nursery education earlier this year, the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, said it was the Government's intention to make a serious attempt to provide this education as soon as finance was available to do that. In moving this amendment, I seek to put into the Bill a duty on local education authorities in Scotland to secure provision for,
"any junior pupil who has attained the age of three years and has not attained the age of five years".
I seek to secure this provision for those who want it. I know that already some authorities in Scotland have made a serious attempt to secure this provision.
Indeed in some areas of Scotland there has been a reluctance on the part of some parents to take advantage of the provision. In deprived areas, in particular where unmarried mothers are in great deprivation, there is a fear and reluctance to send their children to the formal education with trained teachers which is desirable but often in such cases may not be appropriate. I believe that the feeling of the Labour Party has for some time been that it is essential to have trained teachers available for the teaching of pre-school children in every case rather than relying on playschool provision. There is often good reason why those alternative provisions may be more appropriate. I gladly give way to the noble Lord.
Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove: I understand the noble Viscount's view. I have always taken another view. Although I want trained people, there is great benefit for mothers in pre-playschool groups because they, as well as the children, learn a great deal.
The Viscount of Falkland: I thank the noble Lord for his intervention. I absolutely agree with him. Where playschools are often most useful is —dare one say it?—where the parents themselves gain as much, if not more, benefit than the children.
In general, I believe that for Scotland the Bill provides a good framework in which to impose a statutory obligation on local authorities to provide nursery school education for all. I believe that such a provision would be an enormous success in Scotland. It would quickly have an effect on the priorities of the
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Government in other areas of the United Kingdom. We could narrow the gap between this country and other countries in Europe. I beg to move.
8.15 p.m.
Lord Macaulay of Bragar: It is an interesting provision in the field of education, in particular in Scotland. I am not sure of the position regarding England and Wales. Does such provision apply in England and Wales? If not, it is high time it did.
I believe that modern studies now indicate that if one takes care of a child in his young years one will save him from terrible events in his older years. The input by local authorities into education, and nursery education in particular, with children learning how to cope with each other is important. The amendment has the approval of this side of the Chamber. However, the monetary implications have to be considered.
I am a West of Scotland man exiled in Edinburgh. However, in the Lothian region, all parents who wish to enrol their children for a nursery place in Lothian at four years are guaranteed a place. Do the Government wish to extend that provision so that all parents who wish their child to receive a nursery place at four years of age will have such a place at the expense of the Government? It seems good that children can relate to each other and grow up together. Such provision may save time and money spent on prisons when people go wrong as juveniles.
I speak in support of the general principle which the noble Viscount proposes but without making any commitment from this side of the Chamber so far as concerns costs.
Lord Thomson of Monifieth: I support the amendment moved by my noble friend. He need not feel in any way on the defensive as someone from South of the Border intervening in a Scottish local government debate. We are still a United Kingdom. If Scottish Members of the Committee were to feel that it was wrong to participate in debates on English education, or on Home Office affairs, it might speed up the business of the House but I believe that the House would be a poorer place.
My noble friend raises an important issue. It was not raised during the Committee stage in another place. He has initiated a discussion on the issue for the first time during the long debates on the Bill. From a purely Scottish aspect, the local government reform which the Government are carrying through involves increasing the number of unitary local authorities in Scotland quite substantially. Some will be quite small unitary authorities. Under the existing provisions in Scotland, the amount of nursery education provision made by local authorities in Scotland has often been a product of the economies of scale that are possible within quite large regional authorities. Therefore the thrust of the Government's Bill will put a downward pressure on the provision of nursery education in Scotland.
It is against that background that the Bill should provide pressure towards at least maintaining levels of nursery education, and, if possible, towards significantly increasing those levels.

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I conclude with one interesting statistic. I am sure that it has been provided by the Scottish Parent Teacher Council to all noble Lords participating in the debate. It cites research in the United States which claims that every £1 spent on pre-school education saves at least £4 for tomorrow's taxpayers. I thought that that argument might appeal to the present administration.
Lord Mackie of Benshie: I support the amendment. There is no doubt that, if children are interested in learning at an early age, they are better people. If both noble Lords on the Front Bench had been sent to school at three years, think what magnificent specimens they would have been! I was sent to school at four years, but that was because I was already into juvenile crime. I was sent to school at four because I put eggs through the turnip hasher, greatly to the detriment of the eggs and, I suspect, of Mackie. I am grateful to my colleague for bringing the provision forward.
Lord Kirkhill: I add my general support to the proposition which the noble Viscount and others have put forward. I remind the Minister that in 1993 approximately 16,000 signatures from Scotland were submitted in the other place on this specific issue.
I should point out that, in the existing structure of local authorities in Scotland, the scale of regional emphasis enables significant nursery provision to take place. We are about to revert to much smaller authorities in terms of size and scale. Within the regional structure there is now no nursery provision in the Western Isles, where a small authority is struggling with regard to ratecapping finance. I believe that the Minister should consider those additional points.
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie: I join the noble Lord, Lord Thomson, in upbraiding the noble Viscount for his apology for engaging in a debate at the Local Government etc. (Scotland) Bill Committee stage. I think it is entirely appropriate that any Member of your Lordships' House who wishes to contribute should be welcome to do so, particularly when the noble Viscount has a keen and intelligent interest in the matter both sides of the Border. His contribution to our debates is welcome and I hope he will not apologise in future for so participating.
Having said that, it may be churlish of me now to say that there are drafting deficiencies in the proposal that he advances. For example, Scottish education legislation is drafted in terms of education authorities; local education authorities are the English equivalent.
More seriously, it is not clear from the amendment what might be meant by "educational provision". It could conceivably include not only nursery education but also other forms of pre-school provision, such as in day-care establishments.
I should like to make clear that the position of the Government generally—and I hope that the noble Lords, Lord Kirkhill and Lord Macaulay, will be interested to know this—is that we would very much like to see an extension of nursery and other pre-school provision. Our long-term goal is a full range of options which will satisfy the requirements of all parents of pre-school
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children. However, I have to say—and I think that the noble Lord, Lord Macaulay, anticipated this—that those ambitions must be tempered by a sense of reality. They can only be brought about as resources become available.
I am advised that the estimated cost of extending the present mix of part-time and full-time provision in Scotland to all three and four year-olds would be at least an additional £100 million. If it were to be full-time, it would probably come to something like £250 million. That is a substantial sum and puts into context the anxiety about resources. Nevertheless, much is already being achieved. Since 1979, the number of children attending nursery schools in Scotland has risen by over 50 per cent. from 31,700 to 48,000. Moreover, taking the under-five provision generally —and I include nursery schools, day nurseries and pre-school playgroups in that grouping—there are now sufficient places in Scotland to enable authorities to cater for almost 80 per cent. of the three and four year-old population.
We are committed to exploring ways of adding still further, as resources allow, to the choice available to parents, whether it is to the Western Isles or elsewhere on the mainland of Scotland that that commitment is extended. But we believe that that must encompass choice in the public, private and voluntary sectors. We must guard against the danger that by favouring one element we may cause another to fall by the wayside. That might be the unintentional effect of the amendment, and I am advised, for example, that the Scottish Pre-School Playgroup Association is very concerned that that should not happen.
In encouraging choice and diversity in response to children's needs and parents' preferences, the Government will continue to promote both quality and cost effectiveness.
The amendment refers to guidelines issued by Her Majesty's inspectors of schools. In fact, the inspectors issued a report on pre-five education in Scotland in February this year. It provides support for our policy of choice and diversity through advice on the education of children under five across the full range of provision. I believe that the report sets the right tone for pre-five education in the future and I commend its conclusions and recommendations to all parents and professionals involved. But as that report emphasises, the ages of the children involved and their patterns of attendance vary considerably. Provision for education for children under five requires both a sensitive and a variable approach across a range of options. That is why our aim is one of seeking diversity and choice. The present arrangements seem to be working well. They leave to education authorities decisions about pre-school provision in their areas, according to both local needs and circumstances.
I do not believe that anyone has any doubt about the value of such education and the noble Lord, Lord Thomson, hinted that there was evidence from America—whether it is transferable to the United Kingdom may be open to question —that investment in nursery education at an early age can bring about some reduction in criminal activity in teenagers. There are many arguments to that effect, but I have explained our

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desire to see a full range of diversity. While thanking the noble Viscount for his intervention in this useful short debate, I hope that he will feel that he can withdraw his amendment.
Lord Macaulay of Bragar: Before the Minister sits down, could he explain to the Committee what the figure of 80 per cent. means? Is it 80 per cent. in the rural area of Scotland or the urban area? Is it an 80 per cent. availability of nursery education? Neither I nor my noble friend Lord Carmichael had the benefit of nursery education, and, as he said to me in the course of the Minister's speech, probably it shows. We may be a bad advertisement for not having nursery education.
I should like the Minister to say what the figure meant. It is easy to pull figures out of the air and say "80 per cent. of people have access to nursery education", but what happens to a child in the Western Isles, as my noble friend Lord Kirkhill mentioned? How is the figure of 80 per cent. reached as between country and town? If any Members of the Committee wish to find out how the figure is obtained, do we go to the Library? Is there a report somewhere which gives that magic figure of 80 per cent.?
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie: In case the noble Lord mis-heard me, I ought to make it clear that I did not say that there were sufficient places available in nursery schools in Scotland for 80 per cent. I said that there was an under-five provision generally which included nursery schools, day nurseries and pre-school playgroups as well. The calculation was made simply on the basis that there are places within those facilities if one looks at the number of children in the age groups of three and four. However, if the noble Lord would like further details of the calculation which took us to 80 per cent., I can arrange for it to be provided.
The Earl of Minto: I am a little surprised at that figure, even after the last remark made by the noble and learned Lord. In my own authority there is a great desire for pre-school education and, quite frankly, we cannot afford it. Until the resources are made available to which the noble and learned Lord referred and the statutory obligation is placed upon the local authorities in Scotland, they will not be able to afford it. The GAE simply does not cover it. So something would have to fall in order to make the necessary provision if it became statutory, unless the resources were made available.
With regard to the problems in rural regions, such as the one of which I am convener, it is a massive burden that we face when we examine the situation. We have to realise that we have children who would fall into the category and who live way up in the hills and the glens. They would all have to be brought in to the schools in some way; one cannot have places dotted around in the middle of the hills, it would be totally unrealistic. It is a heavy financial burden which at present we cannot attack because we simply do not have the resources. Because it is not a statutory obligation on us, we turn our attention to those cases where we have to provide an education.
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie: Perhaps I may intervene briefly again. I hope that the noble Earl did not take
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from what I said that education authorities in Scotland had, by these various groupings, provided 80 per cent. for all three and four year-olds. There are those facilities which, as he will know, are provided by the Scottish Pre-School Playgroup Association. The noble Earl will appreciate that that is funded by central government; the extent to which it is also funded by local government I am not sure, but I did not intend to convey that there was an 80 per cent. provision by local authorities in Scotland.
8.30 p.m.
The Viscount of Falkland: I should like to thank all those who have taken part in this short debate, and particularly the noble and learned Lord for his personal welcome to me in this debate and also his considered answer. The fact remains that only a third of all children of the age that we are discussing, between three and five, have provision in Scotland.
I am particularly grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Minto. He threw light on the problems in Scotland and the particular extra costs that would be expected in Scotland as compared with, for example, the South-East of England. I take on board the problems of costing. I do not quarrel with the noble and learned Lord's estimate of the costs that are involved in providing the cover which I have suggested should be given in this Bill. I shall read carefully in Hansard what has been said. It has been a useful debate. I hope that others will also read our proceedings this evening.
I believe that there is a general consensus that this provision should be available for all potential pupils. It is just a question of priorities. I hope that the Government will, sooner rather than later, make this a real priority. Most people now agree that to give this opportunity to children and their mothers, and indeed the teachers who have to receive children into their schools who are so ill-prepared in many cases, is a priority in our country, bearing in mind the great costs. I hope that the Government will find a way of tackling the matter with little delay. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 145 [Definition of "road"]:
On Question, whether Clause 145 shall stand part of the Bill?
Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove: I move that Clause 145, and Clauses 146 and 147, do not stand part of the Bill. These are very important amendments on which the Minister may be able to reassure me; but at present I am very concerned about them, as are many other people in Scotland.
The purpose of the amendment (it is odd so to call it since it is simply negative) is to delete entirely the provisions of Clauses 145 to 147 and thereby reaffirm the continued application of the private legislation under which the Tay and Forth road bridges joint boards presently operate and the bridges are concurrently managed.
The background briefing is that Clause 145 provides that bridges constructed under private legislation, the Forth Bridge and Tay Bridge, shall be treated as if there

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were a public right of passage over them. At present there is some doubt whether in law such a right exists, since the public can cross the bridges only on payment of a toll rather than as of right. The significance of this deceptively innocuous provision is that there will be no doubt that the bridges are notionally accessible to the public as of right as they will fall within the definition of a road in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984.
The main significance of Clause 145 does not therefore relate to the conferment of the public right as such. It is, however, essential to the strategy underlying Clauses 145 and 146 that there should be no ambiguity that in law the bridges are roads. As roads, they can be brought within the scope of a special road order. Special road orders are made under the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984—the most common examples of special roads being motorways; although the line of any strategic route can be classified as a special road either by the Secretary of State or the local roads authority. A special road order prescribes the route of a special road and authorises the appropriation of any existing road comprising that route and also the transfer of that road to the special road authority. The promotion of such an order is subject to various statutory procedures for the public notification and the dealing with objections.
Since, by virtue of Clause 145 the Forth and Tay road bridges would be roads within the meaning of the 1984 Act, a special road order could be promoted under the Act in terms of which the two bridges would form part of a prescribed strategic route and be appropriated by transfer to the Secretary of State.
Clause 146 provides that where a special road order transfers a road (that includes a bridge) to a special road authority (in this case the Secretary of State) and the road was previously managed by a body whose functions related solely to the joint boards, the Secretary of State may, by order, dissolve the body and repeal or amend the legislation under which the body was originally established.
Moreover, the dissolution order may transfer some or all of the assets and liabilities of the dissolved body to the special road authority or such other person as the Secretary of State may consider appropriate. The dissolution order may also make provision for the transfer of staff, pensions arrangements, etc. I could go on, but I think the matter is fairly clear. We want to be rid of this ambiguity. I am sure that the Minister will accept that I put down this amendment so that we could hear, as it were from the horse's mouth, what is the legal position. I beg to move.
The Earl of Balfour: I should just like to ask one question on Clause 145. In respect of a public right of passage, does this clause include a carriageway? In other words, can vehicles drive over it? I hoped that I might have managed to find an answer in the definition of a public right of passage, but I totally failed. That is the reason I ask the question.
Lord Thomson of Monifieth: I should simply like to support the plea that was made by the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael, for clarity on this matter. I speak as someone who has a very long interest in the Tay road
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bridge, which in other days and other places I helped to bring about politically. I am very puzzled by the situation. I simply seek clarity from the Government. As I understand it, there is a fear among local authorities, which is expressed in the CoSLA brief that we have all received, that the Secretary of State has a clear, but not readily apparent, intention to appropriate the Forth or Tay road bridges and dissolve the joint boards. It seems rather curious that we should be fearful that this Government would engage in the nationalisation of the bridges. I would be grateful for some clarity.
The Lord Advocate (Lord Rodger of Earlsferry): With the permission of the Committee I shall first answer the point that was raised by my noble friend Lord Balfour and say that the right of passage is a right of passage according to Section 151(1) of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984. It is a right of passage by whatever means, so it would indeed include the means to which he referred.
We have all had the benefit of reading the CoSLA brief on this matter which in effect indicates that local authorities have detected a purpose under what are on the face of it rather technical looking amendments.
There is no secret at all behind what is intended in these amendments. Clause 145 does indeed clarify the definition of a road for the purposes of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984. In particular, it would make it apply to bridges—to take two examples, the Forth bridge and the Tay bridge. The effect therefore would be, reading that with Clause 146, to indicate that it would be open under the Act, as so amended, for there to be an order transferring to a special road authority a particular road. Having regard to the amendment being made to the definition of "road" in Section 151, that would include the bridges over the Forth and the Tay. The purpose would be to transfer them to a special road authority. That would include the Secretary of State. There would not be any question of privatisation in that situation. It would be a matter of the road going over to the Secretary of State. Therefore, it would follow that any powers on dissolution for transferring property would not relate to the property in the road because, according to the opening provisions of new Section 113A(1), that would already have transferred to the special road authority. It would refer to other property which might be left in relation to the road. So there is no question of the road being sold off, so to speak; it simply refers to the other matters.
There is no particular secret behind this. What is intended is to secure the future of what no doubt everybody would admit nowadays are vital links in the road network system in Scotland to secure their future and enable them to meet the demands of changing circumstances in Scotland. One of the successes of those bridges in one sense is that they have been built into the whole infrastructure of the area. The intention is to make sure that toll bridges are covered by the current legislation referring to roads and therefore to make sure that they are included in the legislation which provides for their safe working and effective operation as part of the wider network.

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The clauses also address the situation in which bridges might be incorporated into a special road scheme. The Committee will know that that is a matter provided for under the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984. Therefore, as I said, it is envisaged that those bridges should become part of the network of roads for which the Secretary of State has responsibility.
If that happened and the Secretary of State became responsible for the bridges, even those noble Lords with the most suspicious minds would acknowledge that one would have to review the role of the joint boards which at present administer those bridges. If they were then under the aegis of the Secretary of State, one would have to ask what was the role of the joint boards. That is why provision is made in Clause 146 for the dissolution of those joint boards in that eventuality. But that would be without prejudice to the fact that in that event the constituent local authorities would continue to have an interest in the future of those very important links, as we all admit they are.
At present a review is in hand to consider the bridges along with the other elements in the primary road networks. When the results of that review are available, they will be open for consultation with local authorities. We envisage that that will happen in autumn this year. The consultation will also be open to other organisations which are interested in this matter. It is only after the consultation and in the light of its results that any decisions will eventually be taken on what is most appropriate for these particular routes. If it were decided to take toll bridges into the Secretary of State's network, as is apparent from the terms of Clause 146 and particularly subsections (3) and (4), the Government would set out clearly their proposals for the future of the joint boards and any staff who would be affected.
Also envisaged in the same little network of sections in Clause 147 is a situation in which a toll order might be made for a special road scheme which included a road on which tolls were already charged. We are thinking particularly in that situation of the bridges over the Forth and the Tay. Under the existing arrangements in the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991 that situation is not envisaged. Therefore to cover it we have introduced Clause 147.
The purpose of Clause 147 is to make clear that in the situation in which there are already existing tolls, where this particular procedure would come in we would envisage that, having regard to the fact that there are already existing tolls, the existing machinery for the increase and variation in tolls could apply. Also what is envisaged in Clause 147(2) is a provision to make quite clear that there can be no question of double charging in that eventuality.
With that explanation, which I am sure will reassure the Committee, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw the amendment.
Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove: I am most grateful to the Minister. He has cleared up the point for me although I shall want to look at his words very carefully. He will also appreciate that there was a
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genuine point to be made in raising the amendment because of the worries that have been shown. I shall not oppose the clause.
Clause 145 agreed to.
Clauses 146 to 148 agreed to.
Clause 149 [Exclusion from valuation roll of shootings, deer forests, fishings and fish counters]:
8.45 p.m.
Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove moved Amendment No. 146:
Page 102, line 23, leave out ("no").
The noble Lord said: This group of amendments caused great annoyance when the provisions were noted. The object is to require that rates be paid to the new authorities on shootings, deer forests, fishings and fish counters. The justification is that the abolition of the requirement to pay rates on shootings, deer forests, fishings and fish counters has reduced the amount of income of local authorities from non-domestic rates. The pooling of non-domestic rate income has reduced the adverse effect on individual authorities; but the overall effect across Scotland has been to reduce the total amount of income available from non-domestic rates.
It is incumbent upon us to support the amendment which requires that rates be paid on shootings, deer forests, fishings and fish counters. It is thought that the amount of money in question—it is only an estimate— is in the region of £2 million per annum.
The first amendment, Amendment No. 146, takes out the word "no" from subsection (1) (line 23 on page 102 of the Bill); the second amendment, Amendment No. 147, inserts at the end of that subsection:
"and shall be subject to the payment of rates to the new authorities";
Amendment No. 148 inserts in Clause 151(1) (in line 8 on page 103 of the Bill) the phrase:
"after consultation with local authorities".
That is slightly different, though it is obviously tied up with it. It requires the Secretary of State to consult local authorities prior to prescribing the amount of non-domestic rates payable to councils and the provision gives the Secretary of State powers to make regulations subscribing non-domestic rates by reference to such factors as he thinks fit. Accordingly, he may set different non-domestic rates for different classes of property and rate payers.
Exercise of those powers will leave local authorities with no effective powers. However, they will have to pay for the administration of the service, which will be more expensive as a result of the changes that it is proposed should be embodied in the Bill and with potential anomalies arising from the interpretation of different levels of the rates. Local authorities should therefore be consulted in advance of any new requirements.
I was particularly annoyed about the provision. Many years ago the noble Lord, Lord Home, who was a man of great influence in politics and particularly in your Lordships' House, listened to an amendment tabled by the noble Lady, Lady Saltoun, to excuse from rates

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shootings which were not used for commercial purposes. A long debate took place in the Chamber and I was greatly impressed by the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Home, stood up and said—the words are classic and he had a way of saying them—"I approve in a way of my noble friend's amendment. But since I personally may gain from it, I would find it impossible to vote for it". The record will show that that is exactly what he said.
I do not want to go over the details, but this provision will go down like a lead balloon in Scotland. I hope that the Minister will accept the admonition of the noble Lord, Lord Home, and the serious political consequences that may arise. A lot will be made of it, particularly in rural areas. I beg to move.
Lord Mackie of Benshie: My name is on the last amendment, which requires the Secretary of State to consult local authorities and which appears to me to be reasonable. The question of rates on shootings is a difficult one. One knows that the expense involved in running an estate is very high. When one considers that one day's grouse shooting can pay more than the rent for a whole sheep farm with several beats upon it, it is extremely important for the upkeep of employment in the area.
I shall listen to what the Minister says with great interest. I can see both sides of the argument. I should like him to confirm, increase or lessen the figure quoted. Every time we ask for something that we think beneficial we are told that it will cost £200 million or whatever. In this case the Government are introducing something which will lose money for the local authorities. We should therefore like to know how much that loss will be.
I shall be interested to hear the arguments, because I, as a countryman, know that there are arguments on both sides. I am concerned that the employment in the hills and the high ground should be kept up.
The Earl of Balfour: I rise as an interested party, having a shoot on my own estate, and to say that one of the reasons why I am in favour of the Bill's provision is that it makes both sides of the Border the same. I feel that it is unfair to have shootings in Scotland rated as highly as they are when, with exactly the same type of shoot south of the Border, no rates at all would be paid. Equally, I feel that shootings can create employment and bring a lot of benefit. I firmly believe that even if shootings run at a deficit, which they do for nearly all estates except the very big ones, if an estate is properly keepered, that helps and protects wildlife, particularly small and ground nesting birds. If it is to be heavily rated then I am afraid the average landlord will not be able to continue. I hope that the amendments will not be pressed.
Lord Cochrane of Cults: I support my noble friend Lord Balfour in this matter and also the noble Lord, Lord Mackie of Benshie. The fact is that the countryside runs on money. It needs income in order to be maintained, preserved and improved. The countryside about which conservationists speak so ardently has been created with money spent for a variety of reasons, but nevertheless it has been spent.
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I entirely agree with my noble friend that we are inequitably taxed in relation to the other side of the Border, as he so tactfully put it. If one is paying a tax it reduces the amount of money that can be spent locally to the advantage of the amount of money that can be spent centrally, and we all know where some of that goes. I therefore strongly support my noble friend and hope that the matter will be resolved in his favour.
Lord Rodger of Earlsferry: Not for the first time my noble friend Lord Balfour provides the key to the thinking underlying this provision and the provisions which extend to Clause 149 through to Clause 160. The theme that runs through those clauses is the elimination of distinctions between the system of valuation and rating which exists south of the Border and that which exists in Scotland. In particular, they are designed to eliminate matters which are prejudicial to the position in Scotland. That is very much so in connection with the matter of shootings, deer forests, fishings or fish counters.
In broad terms, the position is that, for various reasons, rates are not payable in respect of those items in England and Wales, whereas hitherto they have been entered on the valuation roll in Scotland and have been accordingly rateable. Whatever the Committee may think of the politics of rating such matters, I cannot imagine that the enthusiasm of the Opposition for taxation goes so far as to indicate that they would wish estates in Scotland to be more heavily taxed than those south of the Border. That is the effect of the position at present. The provision is designed to eliminate what has been regarded as a long-standing inequality between the position in Scotland and that in England and Wales. That is the basic purpose behind the provisions which runs through this part of the Bill.
Let me stress that, while it will result, as Members of the Committee indicated, in a loss of revenue to the Scottish non-domestic rating pool, nonetheless at the end of the day the effect will not be disadvantageous to local authorities. Figures were put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael, and I can agree with his estimate that the likely amount is thought to be less than £2 million. The exact figure is not easily calculable because it depends on hypothesis as to what would have been recovered in the way of rating income on these items as a result of the 1995 revaluation. One cannot predict it exactly, but that is, roughly speaking, thought to be the figure. I do not think we are apart on that kind of figure. That amount is admittedly lost from the pool of non-domestic rates.
Nonetheless, as your Lordships will appreciate, the present system is that the non-domestic rates are remitted to the centre and payments then come out to local authorities by way of revenue support grant. The result of this will be that, if there is a reduction in the rating income to local authorities, there will be a corresponding increase in the revenue support grant. From the point of view of local authorities it will not make any difference. At the end of the day they will end

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up with the same level of income. Although it would come from different sources, nonetheless the position will be that local authorities will have the same income.
9 p.m.
Lord Mackie of Benshie: At a time when the Government are pleading financial stringency the fact is that £2 million will be lost to the country generally in taxation.
Lord Rodger of Earlsferry: I hope that I did not for one moment suggest otherwise. What I said is that this is part of a policy, which even noble Lords on the other side of the Committee might support, that there should be equality between the rating systems of Scotland and of England and Wales. Estates in Scotland should not bear a disproportionate burden. If they do, it will inevitably have the kinds of effects on employment and so on which were mentioned by my noble friends. It is for that reason that the provisions of Clause 149 are designed to put as far as can be done the rating system of Scotland on the same footing as that of England and Wales. That is the theme running through the rest of these clauses.
Clause 151 is designed to bring the powers of the Secretary of State into line with the powers open to government in England and Wales. At present there are powers available to the Secretary of State under Section 128 of the Local Government Finance Act 1988 but those powers are limited to prescribing arrangements which are based on rateable values. On the other hand, in England and Wales the powers available are powers to prescribe the arrangements based on rates bills. The Government take the view that it is desirable that one should be able to give greater certainty in any scheme to the ratepayer as to what he or she will in the end have to pay. One has here a provision designed to give to the Secretary of State for Scotland equivalent powers to those which are already available in England and Wales. They are in effect an extension of powers which are already available in Scotland. In respect of those powers in Scotland there is no obligation to consult local authorities in advance. We see no reason why in respect of these extended powers there should be any obligation to consult local authorities either. In the light of that explanation I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Macaulay of Bragar: Before the noble and learned Lord sits down, does he accept that the sporting estates in Scotland are an industry? He has given a figure of £2 million in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Mackie of Benshie. Are the Government really saying to the people of Scotland that the invaders of Scotland should have this advantage? We know that almost every sporting estate in Scotland is run by people outwith Scotland. I can take the noble and learned Lord to the various salmon areas and so on. I am not interested one way or the other in what happens in England and Wales. What I want to know is whether this Government are now saying that the people of Scotland are to be deprived of an income from sporting estates of £2 million. Are the Government washing their hands and saying, "It doesn't matter. The people who come up can
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use the rivers. They can fish for salmon. They can do what they like to do and have it for nothing"? It is a complete invasion of Scotland.
I for one am not prepared to accept what the noble and learned Lord has said in answer to the questions raised. If there is money to be made for Scotland in the sporting estates, let us get it for Scotland. Let us not make excuses. I find it very strange that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate has made the speech that he has in answer to the amendment and deprived the people of Scotland of their due rights in terms of income from the sporting estates.
Lord Rodger of Earlsferry: That was an astonishing speech. If the noble Lord had been listening he would have heard me explain that the income from these rates does not go, as he would have it, specifically to the people of Scotland and it does not go to the local authorities. This income goes to central government, who then return the appropriate income under the revenue support grant. If the noble Lord wished to indulge in this kind of strangely naive way of looking at the matter, he would be depriving the United Kingdom Exchequer of this particular level of income.
There is no reason why sporting estates in Scotland, as opposed to sporting estates in England, should contribute disproportionately to the income of the Exchequer for the United Kingdom. I should have thought that the noble Lord would welcome the opportunity for this extra money to be retained in Scotland and to be available for investment and to increase employment in Scotland rather than to be used in another way.
Lord Mackie of Benshie: Perhaps I may say a final word before the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael. While the arguments produced by the noble Lord, Lord Macaulay, are absolutely wonderful, fine and old-fashioned complaints—some of them justified—from the Highlands of Scotland, which I like to hear, I do not believe that the Government have made a good case. I do not believe that it is enough to say that we should be like the English. If we want to do that, the English estates could be taxed. The Government failed to make the case that this tax harms the gross income coming into the Highlands. We do want the income from the German and Japanese shooters and from the rich English for the benefit of Scotland as a whole. The Government's case was fairly poor in attaching it to compliance with English law, when I should have preferred the Government to make a proper case that this provision would benefit Scotland as a whole.
Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove: I was surprised at the Minister's speech when he spoke about it being time that we got round to doing in Scotland what is done in England. It is an odd system of priorities that now, when things are so bad and our unemployment is as bad as it is, this is the time for the money to be given out. Despite what the Minister says, he knows that this £2 million will filter down to a group of people who do not really lack a crust. This is a big political issue. I imagine that the Scottish papers will be very interested in it. I have

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not spoken to any of them, but I may be tempted to. The estate owners are making a lot of money from these estates.
I know the argument that this measure will produce jobs. One noble Lord said to me not very long ago that he would be able to employ one more ghillie, but that is not good enough for me. He is not spending all the money on ghillies. But who will audit the figures? The noble Lady, Lady Saltoun, is here. She raised this matter some years ago, but it was decided that it was not a good time to put the matter forward. The noble Lady may be able to give us the date, because I cannot remember exactly when it was.
What about the poor allotment holders who are paying rates on their miserable allotments near the railway sidings? Is there no comparison with them? The few pounds that they would get back if they were relieved of rates would be worth a great deal more to them. It has taken a long time to get around to this matter, but it is appalling that now is the time when it is to be implemented. It is not the time of night to test the opinion of the Committee, but it is a matter that we must come back to.
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy: The noble Lord, Lord Carmichael, has just referred to what I did—was it about eight years ago? I was then trying to achieve the derating of totally non-productive grouse moors which brought in no income whatever to their owners. At that time they were—and they are still, to the best of my knowledge—rated as though they were bringing in quite a large income.
The Earl of Dudley: I am astonished at the dearth of Scottish landlords on these Benches tonight but, if they were here, I am sure that they would be as astonished as I am at the extraordinary proposition coming from the Benches opposite—that is to say, that there is a group of English entrepreneurs culling profits from deer and fish in the Highlands and Lowlands of Scotland.
I am only half Scots, and my knowledge of Scotland is totally different. Most of the Scottish deer forests and fisheries that I know are in the hands of extremely responsible Scottish landlords. In view of my noble friend's expose of the rating system, I should have thought that it is reasonable to assume that the £2 million would be far more likely to remain in Scotland in the hands of those landlords than in the UK Exchequer. Given those thoughts, I hope that noble Lords opposite will not be so pressing about their amendment.
9.15 p.m.
Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove: I do not know the background of the noble Earl, but when a group of people appointed by the Secretary of State—that is, the independent chairmen of Scotland's rating and valuation tribunals—say that it was a shocking decision (I am sure that the Minister has all the details) there is no way of
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avoiding the argument. People in Scotland do not regard those who hold enormous tracts of land in Scotland, whether English or Scottish, with any great affection—
Lord Rodger of Earlsferry: Oh!
Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove: I am sorry that the noble and learned Lord feels that way. In fact, he is a Glasgow man so it is unbelievable that he should speak in that way. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 147 not moved.]
Clause 149 agreed to.
Clause 150 agreed to.
Clause 151 [Power of Secretary of State to prescribe amount of non-domestic rate]:
[Amendment No. 148 not moved.]
Clause 151 agreed to.
Clauses 152 to 161 agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 149 and 150 not moved.]
Clause 162 [Calculation of limits on spending]:
Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove moved Amendment No. 151:
Page 108, line 5, leave out subsection (4).
The noble Lord said: The purpose of this amendment is to ensure that we have a debate on the power of the Secretary of State to limit spending and to raise the issue of a power of general competence for local authorities. This very important amendment is intended to elicit the Government's view on the role of local government in Scotland. That view has been stated only in the broadest and most general of terms. In neither of the consultation papers on reorganisation—that is, those published in June 1991 and October 1992—was there adequate consideration of the proper role of local government and the principles upon which it should be based.
Local authorities should have a right of general competence so that they can undertake activities which are in the interests of their communities. This would entail discarding the doctrine of ultra vires. If the Government do not accept the principle of the power of general competence, it is incumbent on Ministers to set out clearly their own views on what role local government should play in Scotland.
The Wheatley Commission was of the view that local authorities should not be limited by their statutory range of functions and that they should possess a power of general competence making it possible for them to act outside the cover of a specific enabling statute where the circumstances seemed appropriate. The commission stated:
"Such a power might be rarely exercised and yet it could prove profoundly effective in encouraging 'an enterprising and forward looking attitude of mind' in local government towards the particular needs of an area, which even the most comprehensive series of statutes cannot altogether provide for. The power should be granted to all local authorities on an equal footing".
That was stated in 1969 in paragraph 640 of the Wheatley Report.
Wheatley also said:
"It is to the local electorate that the local council should have to answer for the use of such a power. Any restrictions should be aimed … simply at curbing any possible abuse of the powers by way of interference with private rights or the duties of other public bodies".
The commission went on to recommend that the Government should examine what form the safeguards would take when considering legislation on the matter of general competence. The introduction of a power of general competence would have both a symbolic and a psychological importance. It would demonstrate the view that local authorities exist not just to provide services but actively to represent their communities in the broadest sense. Local authorities should be seen as the legitimate voice of the community, with a concern for all public services in their areas, not merely as one agency among many others responsible for delivering services.
It is clear that many local authorities already adopt that role. Clydesdale District Council set out in its policy and financial plan for 1993–94 the following statement as its overall purpose:
"To represent the local community in all matters affecting the District, whether or not these matters relate to the services provided by the Council".
I could explain the amendment at greater length but it is getting late. I know that the Minister has the great privilege of being able to see the amendments that I am helped with, but I do not have a chance to see his answers before he gives them. I shall be happy to hear his answer on the role of local authorities and to be assured that they have not been emasculated. I beg to move.
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie: The effect of the amendment will be to preserve the existing formula for determining the maximum amount of discretionary expenditure which a local authority can incur each Financial year in terms of Section 83 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973.
I appreciate that the noble Lord has taken the opportunity to engage in a brief debate on the issue of what is described as general competence for local authorities. I am happy to attempt to respond to him, but at the same time indicate some puzzlement as to why it should be thought that such a power for local authorities is desirable.
I know that there is a perception that in countries elsewhere in Europe where such a power exists local authorities have more flexibility and freedom. However, if the position is examined more closely, I cannot accept for a moment that that is necessarily the case. Powers for general competence are often introduced in other European countries where it is felt that the existing powers and responsibilities of local authorities are unclear. But the supposition that local authorities in those countries have a freer hand as a result and are less bound by legislation is misleading. In fact, a substantial raft of legislation is usually required to define precisely what local authorities are prohibited from doing. The net effect then is similar to the status quo here.
If the noble Lord wishes me to elaborate on the provision, I would be happy to do so. I believe that there is a misunderstanding about where that arrangement
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would lead us in the United Kingdom. We should not make simple comparisons with what happens elsewhere in Europe. I hope that my explanation has been helpful.
Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove: I obviously accept the Minister's good faith, and we will read his reply carefully in Hansard. The idea behind the amendment is good. I shall find out whether it is merely clumsily drafted or unworkable when I read the Minister's reply. We may bring it back on Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 162 agreed to.
Clauses 163 and 164 agreed to.
Clause 165 [Special grants]:
Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove moved Amendment No. 151A:
Page 110, line 44, at end insert:
("(9) Without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing, in exercising his powers under this section the Secretary of State shall take account of the reference library services provided by the councils of Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen and Dundee and the extent to which such services are utilised by persons not resident in the areas of those councils and shall make such special grants as seem to the Secretary of State appropriate for the purpose of spreading the burden of those services among all the councils whose residents make use of them.").
The noble Lord said: This is a very important amendment. I am a patron of the Scottish Library Association and I am delighted to be able to do something which will perhaps help the association. We have tabled this amendment in order to highlight a problem that exists at present and which will be more serious after re-organisation.
Although all public libraries in Scotland operate under the same statutory provisions (the Public Libraries Consolidation (Scotland) Act 1887, as amended), there are of course big differences in local needs and these result in differences in practice.
In particular, the big city libraries maintain reference facilities far in advance of those available in smaller towns. The Standards for the Public Library Service in Scotland, which were drawn up in 1986 by CoSLA and the Scottish Library Association, make clear that:
"the provision of reference and information services is essential in every community".
I am sure that all Members of the Committee have discovered that to be true. But it is inevitable that the non-city authorities take for granted the big city facilities available in Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen and Dundee and skew their own expenditure towards other sectors of stock provision. The big city libraries can therefore be said to subsidise to some extent the services of other councils.
The problem will be intensified by the present Bill because the big cities will be surrounded in some cases by councils with even more modest resource bases than some of the present districts and those small authorities are likely to rely even more heavily on the city libraries. It is the firm view of the Scottish Library Association, which represents over 2,500 librarians in all kinds of

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libraries in Scotland, that the revenue support grant does not adequately reflect this extra-territorial role of the city libraries.
I therefore ask the Minister to give an assurance that, in principle, this is a consideration which it would be proper to cover in the revenue support grant and to undertake to have exchanges with the Scottish Library Association about it. I beg to move.
Lord Thomson of Monifieth: We on these Benches strongly support the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove.
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie: I am happy to respond to the noble Lord in his capacity as patron of a worthy association. The purpose of his amendment is entirely commendable. It recognises that the reference library services provided in Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen and Dundee are used not only by the residents of those four cities but by people from outwith the cities, and it ensures that the funding arrangements for the libraries take account of their metropolitan role.
However, having said that, I believe that the amendment is based on a misunderstanding of how government support for the library service is, in fact, distributed among authorities. At present, such library services are a district function. The basis of distributing support is not resident, but adjusted, population. "Adjusted population" includes an allowance for tourists, commuters and out-of-town users. As a result of this, the present four district councils which are responsible for the libraries in question receive a level of funding which takes account of the fact that the libraries serve areas much wider than the cities in which they are situated.
Although the arrangements for distributing government support to the new councils have still to be discussed and agreed with CoSLA, it is likely that these arrangements will continue in future. As a result of this, recourse to a special grant to spread the burden of library provision is not necessary.
I understand the noble Lord's anxieties and believe that what he advances is based on a misunderstanding. I hope that, in the light of my explanation, he will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
9.30 p.m.
Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove: The Minister will be aware that there are some extremely good libraries in Scotland. They are worried that there will not be enough money and my mind rather wickedly went to the thought that £2 million would be a great help to them.
I appreciate that there are many demands. I believe that the Minister said that the Scottish Office would be happy to talk with the Scottish Library Association.
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie: I said that I would be happy to talk to CoSLA.
Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove: Well I am sure that CoSLA will send along some librarians. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 165 agreed to.
Clauses 166 to 168 agreed to.
Clause 169 [Functions to include promotion of economic development]:
Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove moved Amendment No. 152:
Page 114, leave out lines 4 to 39.
The noble Lord said: In moving this amendment, I shall speak also to Amendment No. 153. The purpose is to delete Section 171B which gives power to the Secretary of State to impose restrictions on the economic development activities of local authorities.
This amendment arose because in 1993, the Government published their White Paper on local government reorganisation which set out their conclusions about industrial development powers, and the Minister will be familiar with them. It stated:
"The Government value the significant contribution of local authorities in this area and have decided to take the opportunity to confirm in statute for the first time a local authority's right to become involved in industrial development activities".
The White Paper goes on to say that:
"While there would be no obligation on any of the parties involved to come to an agreement on the plans, the Government hope that this provision will improve co-ordination between the various bodies involved in industrial development".
Local authorities in Scotland presently have considerable scope to incur expenditure on economic development under Section 83 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973. That power has been exercised successfully without the need for regulation by the Secretary of State.
It is also noteworthy that that was an issue considered in detail by the Widdicombe Committee report on the conduct of local authority business which was published in 1986. That recommended the continuation of the discretionary power and that was accepted by the government of the day.
CoSLA has looked at the matter carefully and its reasons for rejection of the case for defining local authorities' economic powers in statute relates primarily to the power being taken by the Secretary of State to make regulations restricting the economic development activities of local authorities.
Whether or not we like the Government taking more powers to control local authorities, it must be accepted that it reduces local government authority. It makes people feel less and less involved in their own affairs because the local councils always say that they cannot do what they want to do because they are not allowed to. We hope that this amendment will give back some real power once more to local authorities. I beg to move.
The Earl of Minto: I support the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael, very strongly in this amendment. Those of us who work in local government are fearful of what we consider to be a restrictive provision.
The role of local authorities in economic development really is significant, and I believe that the noble and learned Lord will accept that. I am conscious of the

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work that my own local authority has done over the past six years in "Perifra II" and Objective 5(b) and the preparation for that in the autumn of this year.
While I do not believe that the clause would affect the development in that field, the offshoots involved are, nevertheless, important in local authority terms. The range of activities that we undertake is very wide: for example, developing economic strategies and initiatives; providing business support infrastructure; improving the physical environment and removing barriers to economic development; supporting people entering the labour market or preparing for a new or better job; assisting disadvantaged areas and people participating in the wider economy; and attracting external resources in the area. Such activities are but a framework without the actual flesh that goes into a local authority's duty in its view and, indeed, in the view of all local authorities in Scotland. Given that contribution to economic development, I believe that it would be extremely adverse if that were to be affected in the way suggested in the clause.
It is important to understand that local authorities work very closely with the local enterprise companies. It is beholden upon us within local authorities to speak with our local enterprise companies. In most cases the relationships in Scotland between local authorities and the local enterprise companies are very good. Local authorities are to have placed upon them through statute that they must meet and consult with the LECs, but I see nothing upon which the LECs must consult with the local authorities. If there is to be a sensible division of economic development within the new council areas of Scotland, it is absolutely vital that it should not be one-sided and that the consultative process is statutorily imposed upon both bodies rather than only on one of them. Therefore, I support the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael, most strongly in his proposed new clause.
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie: I have listened carefully to the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael, and the noble Earl, Lord Minto. However, I have to say at the outset that the Government cannot accept the amendments. Perhaps I may take a moment or two to explain why. The proposed Section 171A gives local authorities under the Bill a very broad power to engage in activities to promote the economic development of their areas. I understand that that has been warmly welcomed in Scotland. I should also say that we fully expect that local authorities will use the power given to them in both a responsible and an effective fashion. However, the Secretary of State wishes to impose two conditions on local authorities' use of that power; and the proposed Section 171B will provide the means by which those conditions will be imposed.
The first intended condition will be a requirement on local authorities to consult other parties—particularly the local enterprise company or companies and the chamber or chambers of commerce in each of their areas—before taking action on economic development plans. We believe that that will help to foster a spirit of co-operation among the main actors operating in the economic development field and to achieve a greater co-ordination of effort.
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Secondly, the Secretary of State wishes to require local authorities to supply details of whatever economic development activities they carry out. That will be a requirement for periodic summaries of information, and I have to say that it is a requirement arising from the United Kingdom obligations under European law.
The latter are two important purposes for which provisions would have to be made on the face of the Bill if they were not to be effected by secondary legislation; but in our view, it is more appropriate that they be effected by such regulations because both requirements will need to be spelled out in detailed terms.
I should also point out to the Committee that it is intended that regulations for those purposes will be Laid in time to come into force from the beginning of the new local authority regime. It is not envisaged that the Secretary of State will wish to make early use of that power under Section 171B to impose any other restrictions or conditions on local authorities' economic development activities. We expect, as I say, that local authorities will use this power in a responsible and effective manner. It is only reasonable, however, to allow the Secretary of State to impose additional restrictions or conditions if in future there should arise any need for him to do so in the interests of co-ordination between local action and national policy.
Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands, Enterprise have wide statutory powers for promoting the economic development of their areas, and in the case of Scottish Enterprise, of the economy of Scotland as a whole. They already consult widely with other relevant bodies, including, where appropriate, with local authorities, but have to be able to lake a strategic overview of their functions which transcends purely local interests.
It would be unreasonable—I am sure this will be appreciated—to take statutory measures to require Scottish Enterprise or Highlands and Islands Enterprise to engage in unwieldy consultation with local authorities on economic development questions which might have absolutely no relevance to their part of Scotland.
As regards the local enterprise companies, I am grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Minto, for his observation that in the main they are working pretty well in Scotland as regards their consultation arrangements with local authorities. However, so far as they are concerned, Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise delegate the discharge of many of their functions. They are of course not defined by statute, and their operations are governed by a contractual relationship with the enterprise bodies. If the intention of this amendment is to ensure that the local enterprise companies consult the local authorities in their area, desirable as that is and important as that is, given the fact that they are not defined by statute, it is in our view inappropriate to bring about that result by statutory means. The local enterprise companies are, however, in no doubt as to the Government's wish that they should work closely in partnership with local authorities and other local bodies in promoting the economic development of their areas.

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I have taken a moment or two to spell out the two conditions. I think that is important, as there should not be any misunderstanding in this regard. The Secretary of State does not wish to get involved in this further than is necessary. However, as regards the two conditions that I have taken some time to spell out, I think it will be appreciated that they are important because the first one is necessary in terms of our international obligations and the second is perfectly sensible and desirable. I hope that, with that explanation, the amendment can be withdrawn.
The Earl of Minto: I am most grateful to the noble and learned Lord for the response that he has given to the particular points which I raised. I shall read with the greatest interest what the noble and learned Lord had to say upon those matters. I feel it is important that the economic development agencies, if you like, of Scotland—whatever they may be—should work well together. One of them should not feel that something has been imposed upon the other to the disadvantage of the latter. Naturally I shall leave it to the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael, to decide what he wishes to do with the amendment.
Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove: I am very grateful to the noble and learned Lord. He obviously has a great deal more personal knowledge than I on this subject through his local authority, where I know he is extremely active. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 169 agreed to.
[Amendment No. 153 not moved.]
Clause 170 [Duty of Secretary of State to establish area tourist boards]:
Lord Mackie of Benshie Lord Mackie of Benshie moved Amendment No. 154:
Page 115, line 7, leave out from ("specified") to ("hereafter") in line 8 and insert ("in Schedule (Area Tourist Boards) to this Act").
The noble Lord said: I rise to move Amendment No. 154 and speak to Amendment No. 158. The amendments hang together. They have a simple purpose, which is to give Argyll and Bute, which form a proper entity, a single tourist board. In Argyll and Bute at the moment there are a number of tourist boards, so there will be a joining together and a clarification of the position which the people of Argyll and Bute all support.
All the bodies previously involved support a tourist authority or tourist board which simply takes in Argyll and Bute. That is their feeling among themselves; they are very close. They do not wish to be associated—it is not for any nasty reason—with Clackmannan and Falkirk Council, Dumbarton and Clydebank Council and Stirling Council. It seems logical that Argyll and Bute, with its 500 islands, a great many of them inhabited, provides a different tourist attraction from the Loch Lomond side. One can go round Loch Lomond within a day on a bus. But Argyll and Bute needs to attract people who will spend several days within the area and who will acquire a taste for the loneliness and the peace of that countryside. The area requires a specific
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authority in order to promote such tourism which has a great future if it is properly undertaken. Obviously as we swelter in the heat (although not in this Chamber) we do not think of visiting Clackmannan or Stirling but the islands. I can understand that feeling.
The Government are a little inconsistent. On the Marshalled List we have, rightly and properly, Shetland Council, Orkney Council and the Western Isles Council, each of which will have its own tourist board. That is logical. If I may digress while moving the amendment, it is quite illogical that, although the tourist boards in the islands are on their own, the Government still wish to put water and sewerage in with a larger authority. There is no way that one can carry water or sewerage across between the islands. The Government are being entirely illogical in that case. I shall return to the issue of water and sewerage at Report stage.
However, the logic extends to Argyll and Bute. It has a solid case. Those people are united in their desire for that authority. I should like to hear any proper reason that the Government can produce for refusing the request. I beg to move.
9.45 p.m.
Lord Rodger of Earlsferry: The noble Lord has urged that we should change the decision to create a new area tourist board for the West Highlands and the islands of Argyll, Bute and Cowal, along with Loch Lomond, Stirling and the Trossachs boards. In fact he is indicating that Argyll and Bute should simply have its own tourist board.
From a technical point of view—I do not make much of the point—his amendment would have the effect, which I think the noble Lord would probably regard as undesirable, of restricting or removing entirely the flexibility to provide for future changes in the boundaries of area tourist boards which is available within the clauses as they stand. Of course, we always hope to achieve perfection in legislation. But there is always the possibility that in future circumstances may change and something may have to be altered. As noble Lords will appreciate, the scheme in the Bill allows for change if that is appropriate. But if the noble Lord's amendments were incorporated, they would remove that element of flexibility.
The real thrust of the noble Lord's amendments was to deal specifically with the case relating to Argyll and Bute. Even he would accept that in the nature of things this is an issue upon which it is always difficult to be sure that there is one uniquely correct answer. Different views may be held. The issue comes from the original decision of the Government in 1992 to review the system of tourist support arrangements in Scotland. As a result, views emerged from the tourism industry and the existing tourist boards that we required radically to reduce the number of boards which operate at present in Scotland. I do not believe that that is a controversial conclusion; it was certainly supported by the industry. At present, there are 31 boards and the effect of the legislation is to reduce that number.
In reaching our decisions on the matter, we took the advice of the Scottish Tourist Board, which is the Government's statutory adviser on tourism matters in

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Scotland. As I am sure the noble Lord is aware, the Scottish Tourist Board was strongly of the view that a board which comprised the area of the new Argyll and Bute, Stirling, Clackmannan and Falkirk councils would be both an effective and—in so far as it is different—a financially sound organisation which would bring great benefit to the tourism industry in the area.
The mere fact that that representation was made does not mean that it has to be accepted, but we considered it as we also considered other representations which were made. In the light of that, the Government reached the view that the interests of tourism in Argyll and Bute would be better served at the end of the day by the arrangements which have been announced rather than by a board covering only Argyll and Bute.
The thinking behind that, as the noble Lord may be aware, is that Argyll and Bute would gain a considerable advantage from having associated with it Loch Lomond, which is one of the main tourist attractions in Scotland. It would also gain from being associated with Stirling, which is already one of the drawing points of tourism in Scotland and is increasing in popularity. There is a pattern of tourism whereby people coming to Scotland go to Edinburgh, then to Stirling and shoot north up to Inverness and so on. It is envisaged that by this marketing strategy which would associate Argyll and Bute with Stirling, people would be drawn west towards Stirling, then on to Loch Lomond, then westward to Argyll and Bute. Everyone acknowledges that there have recently been problems in the Cowal area and it is necessary to do all we can to attract visitors to it. Based on the advice which comes from the Scottish Tourist Board, we feel that a package which markets the area as a whole, thereby drawing people to it in such a way would be attractive and at the end of the day it would be the most successful way of marketing tourism there.
To those who have advised us, and whose advice we have accepted, it seems that there would be a possibility of having a kind of "package" of towns, history, sites, outdoor activities and so on. In that way we would hope that people would be drawn over to the west, and would go to Argyll, instead of simply moving on northwards, as they tend to do at the moment, into the Highland area and in effect by-passing the Argyll and Bute area. The findings of the existing board suggest that that has not been as successful as one might have hoped.
We therefore think—although I realise that there are different views on this issue—that the approach envisaged by the Government is the correct one. In the light of that explanation, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Mackie of Benshie: I thank the Minister for that very full explanation and the logical way in which he expressed it. There is of course one great snag; namely, Argyll and Bute are against it. If you start with an area where there is a split, it does not work too well.
I know a little about the tourist industry. I have been associated with it. The fact is that you may guide people along a road, but they go there not with the intention of touring. If, for example, they are going to Argyll and to the Islands, they mean to go there. You are not going through Stirling; you are not being drawn along a
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channel; you are actually going there. The four tourist boards, which are amalgamated now, believe that they have a special case for marketing.
I have listened to the arguments and I will withdraw the amendment. But I hope that the noble and learned Lord has listened to my argument and that he might consider it. If there is provision for alteration in the future, it might be better to make it now. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Macaulay of Bragar Lord Macaulay of Bragar moved Amendment No. 155:
Page 115, line 8, at end insert:
("(1A) For the purposes of this section a new local authority may no later than 1st October 1995 submit to the Secretary of State for his approval a scheme for the establishment of an area tourist board, together with any other such authority whose area lies wholly or partly within the area of that board.
(1B) The power conferred on new local authorities by subsection (1A) above may only be exercised after consultation with the district or islands councils whose area lies wholly or partly within the area of the board for which the scheme is proposed.
(1C) Before making schemes under this section the Secretary of State shall have regard to any schemes submitted under subsection (1A) above, approval of which shall not unreasonably be withheld.").
The noble Lord said: This amendment would allow the local authority to conjoin with the Secretary of State to approve a scheme for the establishment of an area tourist board together with any such authority whose area lies wholly or partly within the area of that board. The purpose is to allow the new local authorities the power to present proposals for the establishment of new area tourist boards.
It is probably an open secret that this amendment comes from the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities. CoSLA is anxious that its views should be taken into account and that local authorities should work in conjunction with the Secretary of State to project the image (if you can put it that way) of Scotland in the most desirable way, setting aside all parochial issues as to which part of Scotland is more beautiful than another. (We all know that Scotland is a beautiful country anyway, so we cannot start arguing about that.)
CoSLA makes the point that it has not been consulted by the Scottish Office on this particular matter or by the Scottish Tourist Board in making recommendations to the Secretary of State. The amendment was put down to focus on this particular issue: all of us in Scotland wish to project Scotland in the most favourable light. The effect of the amendment would be that the local authorities, the Secretary of State and the Scottish Office could all get together and make Scotland a place to which people will want to come for many years to come. With those remarks, I beg to move the amendment.
Lord Rodger of Earlsferry: The noble Lord concentrated on Amendment No. 155. The Committee will notice that the wording of subsection (1A) in that amendment indicates that a new local authority may submit a scheme to the Secretary of State for his approval. As the noble Lord acknowledged, that is a power and not a duty.

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The first of the noble Lord's remarks was that the local authorities should be given the power to submit the schemes to the Secretary of State and in effect work in conjunction with him for the establishment of the area tourist boards. I have to tell him that the Government believe that the new shadow authorities will have neither the time before 1st April 1996 nor indeed the resources to devote to the task of establishing the new tourist boards. That seems to us to be a particularly important matter. If the boards are not up and running by 1st April 1996, there will be a void for tourism which could not be filled in another way and which could result in damage to the tourism industry and harm to visitors.
We believe that that has to be avoided and it is avoided only by giving the power which is contained in the Bill to the Secretary of State. Because we believe that that is the only way that people can be sure that those arrangements are in place by 1st April, we feel that what is in the Bill is in fact necessary.
I stress to the noble Lord that that does not mean that the boards will be set up without consultation. In so far as there are fears on that score, let me set them at rest. Both the new and the existing local authorities will be given every opportunity to contribute to the work necessary to establish the new area tourist boards. I believe that the contribution of the local authorities will be no less under the Government's proposal than would be the case under the noble Lord's amendment. The difference—I believe that it is a crucial difference—is that under our proposal the tourist industry has a guarantee that area tourist boards will be established, whereas it is plain on the face of the amendment that under the noble Lord's proposal there is no guarantee and only a hope. In that situation I believe that our proposal is preferable.
With that explanation, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
10 p.m.
Lord Macaulay of Bragar: I am grateful to the Minister for that explanation, but I find it a contradiction in terms. If the position of the Government is that the new authorities will have neither the time nor the resources to set up their own area tourist boards, how will they find the resources to consult with the Government? One cannot have it both ways. Either they have the time and resources or they do not have them. Therefore what the noble and learned Lord has just said is a meaningless promise from the Government.
I understand that he should say, "All right, we will consult with all the local authorities"; but let us not hedge that reassurance with, if I may say so, silly restrictions to imply that, "You do not have the time and resources and therefore you cannot do it yourselves. But if we consult with you, you do have the time and resources."
It seems to me to be a nonsensical approach. However, I am sure that the new shadow authorities will do everything in their power to co-operate with the Government in projecting the image of Scotland. With those observations, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove moved Amendment No. 156:
Page 115, line 16, leave out paragraph (d) and insert:
("(d) provide that the members of the board shall be nominated by the new local authority whose area lies wholly or partly within the area of the board together with any other such authority whose area lies wholly or partly within the area of that board and by the tourist industry in the said area.").
The noble Lord said: The purpose of Amendment No. 156 is to provide that the members of the board shall be based on nominations from local authorities and the local tourist industry in such proportions as they may agree. The Secretary of State for Scotland, in a statement in June 1993, said,
"In order to encourage further evolution of industry involvement in Area Tourist Boards, the proposed legislation will provide that on Executive Committees, the members representing trade interests shall be in a majority".
It is interesting to note therefore that during consideration of this matter in the Commons, Ministers tabled an amendment to the Bill allowing that local authority representatives and those representing trade interests can be of equal numbers on an area tourist board controlling body.
The Government's desire to increase the representation of trade members is interesting in that no evidence exists to support any suggestion that this is a desire widely held by the trade itself. In that regard it is interesting that the Dumfries and Galloway Tourist Board expressed concern at local authorities forming a minority on the area tourist board, stating that,
"we believe that such matters as representation on these controlling bodies should be left to individual ATBs and should not be subject to specific legislation. It should be up to each of the new Area Tourist Boards to determine the most appropriate representation on their controlling body".
Given the Government's desire to deny local authorities a majority on the controlling bodies of ATBs, local authorities are very concerned, as are many trade members of area tourist boards, over the future funding of the new tourist boards by the new councils. I hope therefore that the Minister, who has all the figures, will answer that pertinent point from a tourist board. It is hard to break into the big time of tourism in Scotland, though the area is one we should exploit much more. I beg to move.
Lord Rodger of Earlsferry: I am slightly puzzled about the amendment because it would delete paragraph (d) which simply provides for the Secretary of State to appoint the first members of the controlling board. That is all the provision is designed to do. The noble Lord addressed his amendment as though it were designed to deal with the respective representation of the local authority and the subscribing members of the board. That is a completely different issue, which is dealt with in Clause 170(6) of the Bill which deals with the composition and provides that the number of persons representing a local authority shall not exceed the number of subscribing members appointed as members of the controlling body.

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The noble Lord will be aware that as a result of representations made, that provision was altered and now provides for equality between the two sides. Again this is a matter where it is possible to hold different views as to exactly what is the correct proportion. But we believe that at the end of the day equality is a good thing. It means that the local authority retains an interest in this body, which is important, as is recognised by the tourist industry members. Equally, it means that the tourist industry members feel that they have a proper say in the body and that their interests are being properly protected. The Government have no interest other than appointing the initial members. That is part of the overall scheme to get the board under way as soon as possible. The provision relating to the composition of the boards is in subsection (6) and provides for equality. We believe that that is acceptable. In the light of that explanation, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
The Earl of Minto: I have to admit that my local authority does not as a region have a direct responsibility for a tourist board within the borders as it stands at the present time but the districts do. I would have to say to the Committee that there is concern that, since the funding would appear still to come from the new authority, it is perhaps only right that there should be some form of majority representation if we are having to impose a form of taxation upon ourselves in order to fund the tourist board element. I think there is a legitimate concern that perhaps the majority should be seen to be from the elected membership so that one could then turn to those one represents and say, "At least we have a majority and we therefore feel it justifiable that we should spend your money on this subject".
Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove: I am sorry if I misled the Minister and addressed the wrong amendment at the beginning. I thought that they dealt with the same subject. However, it was a bonus because I received an explanation which was a great help to me. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Rodger of Earlsferry: Perhaps I may say to the noble Earl, Lord Minto, that there is provision for people to be subscribing members in terms of Clause 170(7).
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 170 agreed to.
Clauses 171 to 174 agreed to.
Lord Thomson of Monifieth Lord Thomson of Monifieth moved Amendment No. 157:
After Clause 174, insert the following new clause:
("Preservation of museums and art galleries
. A local authority shall consider museum and art gallery collections held by them as community assets held in trust, and make proper arrangements for their preservation and management.").
The noble Lord said: Perhaps I may move this amendment in the absence of my noble friend Lord Mackie of Benshie. The amendment has been put down for two purposes. The first is the general purpose of underlining to the Government the importance in the aftermath of local government reform of ensuring the
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continued vitality of the museums and art galleries mat are under local authority control and ownership. A change in the structure of local government is always destabilising and it is extremely important that in those circumstances the new authorities should be encouraged by government in every way possible to maintain adequately the museums and art galleries that currently belong to Scottish local authorities.
Secondly, there is the more specific matter that has been raised by CoSLA of the legal situation relating to the management and ownership of the collections. There is some obscurity on the matter, and with the establishment of the new structures it is a good moment to consider the legal status of the local authority collections in our museums and art galleries. It is extremely important that, in a period of change in local government with very severe financial pressures on the new authorities, it should not be the standard and the quality of the museum and art gallery services that suffer. I beg to move.
10.15 p.m.
The Earl of Balfour: There is something in this amendment. I take up the word "held" which is in it. Are the collections held on trust or on loan or are they the property of the local authority? There are problems here with new authorities taking over and the old ones being wound up.
Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove: I said that I would withdraw the amendment, but I had no right to do so because my name is not attached to it. I was glad that I had made that mistake and that the noble Lord, Lord Thomson of Monifieth, came in and gave me the chance to speak. There is no question but that museums and art galleries over the past 15 to 20 years have become extremely important for the development of some areas. People have more leisure and the techniques of displays at museums and art galleries have improved enormously. That is true particularly in areas like Liverpool and the west of Scotland, where there are great engineering and industrial traditions. Some of the machinery has been saved. It is well worth while that we should do everything we can to give an example to future generations as to what made their area great and how the capital was produced to build up their area.
It is also extremely important to appreciate the general attractiveness of museums because of greater leisure and people being more interested in the past. They are also more interested in their roots. Attendances have increased quite remarkably over the past few years. A number of local museums have engendered great local pride in industries which were perhaps extremely narrow in their range. For instance, in some parts of Ayrshire there are quite small weaving museums concerned with things such as woollens and netting, the plant which creates them and the very intricate machinery which produces them. I hope that the Minister will accept that museums are becoming very

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important and that, if we do not do something now, many very good exhibits and sources of knowledge, pleasure and recreation for people will be lost.
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie: As the noble Lord, Lord Thomson, has said, this is an opportune moment to consider just exactly what is the proper arrangement that should be made for museums and galleries in Scotland. As the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael, said, there is encouragingly greater interest in these parts of our national life and they should be preserved and regarded.
The first part of this clause would require a local authority to hold all the items in their museum and art gallery collections in perpetuity. The authority would not be able to dispose of such items in any circumstances. The second part of the clause would require it to secure the preservation and good management of its collections.
I say to the noble Lord, Lord Thomson, that the clause does not take account of the existing provisions of Section 21 of the Public Libraries Consolidation (Scotland) Act 1887, which deals with the operation of museums and art galleries, as well as libraries.
Among other things, Section 21 of the Act imposes a duty on local authorities to manage, regulate and control their museums and art galleries and gives them a general power to do whatever is necessary to fulfil their management duty, including specific powers to take the necessary steps to keep items in their collections in a proper state of preservation and repair. Given the terms of the noble Lord's amendment, I believe that he would approve of that existing provision. The local authorities therefore already have broadly the same duties in relation to collections management and preservation as the new provisions seek to impose.
I return now to the first part of the new clause which would prohibit local authorities from ever disposing of items in their collections. Section 21 of the 1887 Act makes specific provision only for disposal of duplicate items in collections by way of sale or exchange, provided that—it is an important proviso—the proceeds of the sale or the property received in exchange is applied to the benefit of the museum or art gallery.
A total prohibition on disposal would conflict with the aim of the second part of the new clause—that relating to the good management of collections. The freedom to dispose of some items for good reasons— such as the collection already has two and one will suffice—seems an essential part of good collections management.
I could make a number of other observations about the registration scheme which is operated by the Museums and Galleries Commission, which is the Government's adviser on these matters. Some guidance has been given on what might be an appropriate regime in terms of maintaining and managing items and, in certain limited circumstances, disposing of them. However, I hope that the explanation that I have given to the noble Lord will be sufficient.
The Earl of Dudley: Will the Minister say something about the substantive point raised by the noble Earl,
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Lord Balfour, in that a number of museums and galleries in Scotland, particularly the National Gallery of Scotland, contain some very fine pictures, including some Titians and Poussins, which are on loan from private collections? I think that I am right in saying that the noble Duke, the Duke of Sutherland, has loaned pictures to the National Gallery of Scotland. Although I do not pretend to know the arrangements that exist between the noble Duke and the gallery, those pictures are not the property of the gallery. That is the point that the noble Lord should take into account when considering both the amendment and the legislation.
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie: I apologise to my noble friend Lord Balfour for not dealing with that matter. Noble Lords will appreciate that specific provisions relate to the National Gallery of Scotland. I can think of a number of important benefactors who have allowed paintings, books and the like to go on show in Scotland with varying bases of trust. If there is some arrangement whereby such works are held on trust, nothing that we would propose would seek to alter the terms of those trusts. Indeed, I do not think that the proposed amendment makes any suggestion that the terms of particular trusts allowing paintings to be exhibited and shown to the public would be altered in that fashion.
Lord Thomson of Monifieth: I confess to the noble and learned Lord that that Scottish Act of 1887 is not something that I have studied recently. However, I am grateful to the Minister for the care that he has taken in his response and for its sympathetic tone. I shall want to study carefully what he has said. No doubt those who are professionally concerned with these matters will also want to study the statement that he has just made.
On the face of it, I am inclined to agree with the Minister that our amendment, as drafted, contains an inherent contradiction. We were trying to ride two different horses in slightly different directions at the same time. That is a familiar experience in your Lordships' House. You cannot have absolute trust and, at the same time, flexibility in the good management of a gallery or museum. I accept that. However, having said that, I am grateful to the Minister and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The Earl of Halsbury The Earl of Halsbury moved Amendment No. 157A:
After Clause 174, insert the following new clause:
("Scientific Services Agency
.—(1) There shall be constituted in accordance with Schedule (The Scientific Services Agency for the Scottish Local Authorities) to this Act, a body to be called the Scientific Services Agency for the Scottish Local Authorities (referred to in this Act as "the Agency") which shall have the functions conferred to it by this section.
(2) Local Authorities may delegate to the Agency such of their functions as they consider appropriate.
(3) The Agency shall provide such services and carry out such tasks for local authorities as the Agency and those authorities may agree, and on such terms and conditions as may be agreed.
(4) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (3) above the Agency shall provide the services of Public Analyst and Agricultural Analyst to the local authorities. The Agency may further provide the services of chemical analysis, microbiological examination,

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physical and other testing, and scientific advice to the local authorities in accordance with Schedule (The Scientific Services Agency for the Scottish Local Authorities).
(5) For the purposes of this section any reference to provision of services to a local authority shall be taken as including a reference to Water Authorities, Police Forces, Fire Brigades, Strathclyde Passenger Transport Authority and public bodies within the meaning of section 21 of the Local Authorities (Goods and Services) Act 1970.").
The noble Earl said: I shall speak also to Amendment No. 158A which relates to a schedule to the new clause proposed in Amendment No. 157A. The amendments together provide for a scientific agency service for Scotland to provide services to the new unitary local authorities for Scotland which will take over in April 1996. The amendment deals with an aspect of what has hitherto had only the briefest mention in this place or elsewhere. It is a probing amendment which I shall not carry to a Division. However, I reserve the right to raise it again on Report if the Minister's reply is unsatisfactory.
The Minister should note that the amendments have the support of the Society of Directors of Trading Standards in Scotland and environmental health officers. The hour is late. I am trying to avoid prolixity, but I must explain what and who public analysts are. The public analyst must, first, have an Honours degree in chemistry. That takes three years. He must then have a postgraduate Masters degree in analytical chemistry to a standard set by the Royal Society of Chemistry which is the standard-setting body for the whole chemical profession. As if that were not enough, he must be skilled in microscopical examination and microbiological identification. To crown it all, he must be very familiar with national and international law on standards.
I have said on an earlier occasion in another context that the public analyst is the crème de la crème of the profession of applied chemistry. His verdicts are accepted in the courts. Of those admirable people, there are only 10 in the whole of Scotland. They are employed by local authorities which provide them with what I might call in a generalised sense ammunitions and rations. To particularise them, that is laboratories and equipment.
The situation is a little different in England and Wales, but I shall not take up the Committee's time with a digression on that point. Currently, the public analysts' ongoing arrangements are with local government as it now is. The foundation of ongoing arrangements for local government, as it will be, has to be provided for. But that has not been so. That is the reason for the amendments. We must not leave a vacuum between government and public analysts. Who, for example, will own the laboratories now owned by public authorities to be dissolved in favour of other public authorities?
I do not want to see a situation reminiscent of a well remembered wartime cartoon where an inexperienced subaltern is marching his platoon over the edge of a cliff and an irritated sergeant major is saying to him, "For God's sake say something, sir, even if it's only goodbye". I hope that that is not an admonition that I shall have to address to the Minister.
The authority and status of those people go a long way back but were consolidated in the Food Safety Act 1990. But the Bill sets up food authorities, without requiring them to be those that now exist It also sets up a food safety examiner, without specifying who or what he is to be; and elsewhere in other legislation authority is provided for standards in agricultural services, animal feeding stuffs, and standards with respect to toy safety, household chemical safety, fraudulent substitution and labelling.
The Bill, unamended, would abolish regional councils which employ the public analysts and which own their laboratories. It redistributes their authority and responsibility, and the result could be the dismembering or fragmentation of the present partnership and relationships which could take a long time to repair. The new clause and the accompanying schedule propose to deal with that danger by setting up a science service for Scotland as a whole similar to the children's reporter administration in Part III of the Bill. If one likes, it is an Omnium Gatherum of all the scientific skills at the disposal of local government in general. I hope that the Committee will remember that under the terms of the European Community's education additional measures directive all the public analysts' laboratories have to be properly accredited and assessed. This is now achieved by existing accreditation to the NAMAS and FAPAS schemes—I shall not bother the Committee with what those acronyms mean—on quality assurance. Maintaining these schemes is expensive and it can be best achieved by maintaining the structural integrity of the public analytical laboratories as they now are. This amendment comes forward at a late stage of the Bill and the noble and learned Lord may feel that he has not had time sufficiently to consider it in all its aspects. I hope that he will receive it with sympathy and possibly give me an undertaking to meet the public analysts and Royal Society of Chemistry representatives who have assisted me in the preparation of these amendments at some time between now and the Report stage, which I take it will be in the autumn—in October or around that time. In the hope that the Minister will be able to give me some such assurance, I beg to move.
10.30 p.m.
Lord Tordoff: The Committee and the public analysts will be grateful to the noble Earl for introducing this amendment so that it can be debated, although it is somewhat late in the evening. The noble Earl has covered the ground extremely well, as one would expect, because this is a subject with which he is well acquainted. His connections with the Royal Society of Chemistry are well known. Like him, I am grateful to the Royal Society for the support that it has given by way of briefing.
I should like to make one or two points. First, I direct the Committee's attention to the 1st Report of the Select Committee on Science and Technology 1985–86, under the chairmanship of the noble Earl, Lord Cranbrook, on

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which I had the honour to serve. We looked at the question of science and technology in local government. Paragraph 4.23 of the report states:
"The scale of services has to be appropriate to present-day needs. The evidence quoted in Chapter 3 and the experience of the Committee's own members convinced the Committee that economies of scale are achievable in science and technology… in short, the Committee consider that scientific and technical services will obtain better quality facilities and instrumentation, better career structures and employment advantages, leading to higher overall quality of staff, and greater efficiency at any given level of cost, if they are organised on a large scale".
Paragraph 4.24 states:
"Few local authorities are large enough to be self-sufficient in this respect, and the smaller ones are going to be at a disadvantage in the employment of staff and the purchase of capital equipment".
That is very much at the heart of the noble Earl's argument, supported as he is by the noble Lord, Lord Porter. Perhaps en passant I may say without any disrespect to the noble and learned Lords opposite that I wonder sometimes why in your Lordships' House we refer to undoubtedly learned members of the law as noble and learned Lords and yet we refer to Nobel Prize winners as "the noble Lord". I think that it is rather sad that we do not recognise the skills, knowledge and experience that we have in your Lordships' House in the shape of the noble Lord, Lord Porter, and indeed the noble Lord, Lord Todd.
It is important to maintain certain specific principles in the operation of these excellent laboratories which the noble Earl's clause seeks to enshrine in the Bill. Among these are the unrestricted and equal access to the specialist scientific services by the new Scottish unitary local authorities; the preservation of the independence of the public analysts—and that is a very important point because these people are not only skilled but they are independent and when they go to court they are respected because of their skill and independence—the availability of experienced analytical chemists, food analysts, food examiners and agricultural analysts to all the new Scottish local authorities; and the proper co-ordination of specialist scientific services and enforcement, as is the case at present.
It is unfortunate that the Bill has not so far encompassed those matters. I hope that when the noble and learned Lord responds, he will come forward with some mechanism by which those very important services can be maintained. They are important not only for the scientific community but for the average man and woman in daily life. Local authorities should be given the degree of scientific back-up which they need in an increasingly complex scientific world.
The Earl of Balfour: I add a few words of support from a purely practical point of view. I believe that that body needs to be given the special provisions necessary to meet the ever-increasing hygiene requirements of both British and European Governments.
Tremendous care needs to be taken in respect of bacteriological tests in order to ensure that the sample taken is not polluted by other bacteria. Also, very often, temperatures come into the matter. An analyst taking a sample of water from the kitchen, straight from the
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main, should use a blow lamp on the tap to keep that sterilised before he takes a sample. The water is then put into a bottle which is very often insulated so that the temperature does not change during its transportation to the laboratory where it is fully tested. That is extremely important.
Equally, the local authority environmental health departments are taking on ever-increasing responsibilities for many of those matters. It is extremely interesting that unlike many of the other local authority departments, they have never asked for a director. I believe that that is a good example of a department which is better off without a director.
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie: Perhaps I may say somewhat defensively to the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, that I did not determine that those with legal qualifications should be described as "learned". At the risk of losing my professional colleagues, I feel bound to say that there are many occasions on which the contributions of non-lawyers may be more learned than those made by lawyers. I believe that the noble Earl provided just such a contribution to our debate this evening.
I should say to him immediately that we are anxious to ensure the continuing integrity of the public analyst service. As he pointed out, regional and islands councils are required by Section 27 of the Food Safety Act 1990 to appoint public analysts. District councils are then required to use those analysts for various purposes. Under the terms of this Bill those responsibilities will be transferred to the new councils. Thus all 32 new councils will be required to appoint public analysts and use them for certain specified tasks.
I should emphasise, however, that that does not mean the appointment of 32 different analysts. Indeed, the Government would hope that that will not be the case. While it will be up to each new council to take its own decisions on this matter, there would appear to be no reason why councils should wish to alter the existing arrangement whereby all councils use the same four public analysts.
Mention was also made of whether the analysts will continue to be employed by the new councils. There is, of course, no statutory obligation on local authorities to employ analysts in-house. I understand, however, that while that has not always been the case, the four analysts at present are employees of regional councils.
As such, I should have thought that local government would wish them to be covered by the staff transfer orders which are to be made under Clause 8 of the Bill. Similarly—the noble Earl raised this matter—I should imagine that the authorities involved will agree to transfer their laboratories and equipment under the auspices of Clause 15 of the Bill.
The question regarding which authorities the public analysts will be transferred to is largely one for the regional councils and their successors to decide. The most sensible options would appear to be either to transfer them to the councils for the four main cities or, alternatively, to arrange for them to be employed jointly by some or all of the successors to the existing regions.

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While I appreciate the argument which has been put forward in favour of a single scientific services agency, I am not immediately persuaded that that is necessary. Public analysts in Scotland already operate satisfactorily on a joint basis. As I said, there is no need for each new council to employ its own expertise and set up expensive laboratories; nor, on the other hand, is there any need to combine all the existing services into a single national unit.
I believe that we touched briefly on the matter of the public analyst service on an earlier occasion when I took the opportunity to say that I thought that it was an example of excellent joint working. That possibility remains under the Bill, without, I hope, the necessity of the direction of the Secretary of State. However, as we discussed previously, that power does exist.
Finally, I must tell the Committee that I have received a request for a meeting from the public analysts. I do not intend any discourtesy to them, but I believe that I have not as yet responded. However, if the noble Earl and the noble Lord think that it would be helpful for me to have such a meeting before Report stage, I should of course be happy to take up that opportunity.
Lord Tordoff: Before the noble Earl responds, I should like to point out that it seems to me that the Government have not grasped the seriousness of the situation. The regions are being abolished and a great vacuum is opening up. It is possible that the local authorities can get their act together and in due course produce some sort of amalgamation and coherent structure. But I believe that it ought to be included in the Bill somehow. In other words, the Government ought to be giving a lead to the new local authorities and saying to them, "This is an essential thing for the health of the people of Scotland, and that is the structure around which you should amalgamate". That is why I commend the amendment to the Government. It is a way forward. Indeed, the noble and learned Lord is offering very little in its place.
The Earl of Halsbury: Perhaps I may, first, thank all those who associated themselves with me by attaching their names to the two amendments. I should also like to thank all noble Lords who have spoken and contributed to our debate. In addition, I believe that I should extend my thanks to the Royal Society of Chemistry, of which I am a fellow, and the Association of Public Analysts, of whom I am not one, for the massive support that they gave me in preparing the words that I have delivered to the Committee this evening.
I very much associate myself with the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, and must return to what I originally said: the Government are leaving a vacuum in the hope that people will sort it out for themselves. I do not believe that one should. I hope that during the holidays the noble and learned Lord will study carefully what I said and come up with a conviction that he should do something about it. For now, I shall await the Report stage, reserving my position thereon. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clauses 175 to 178 agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 158 and 158A not moved.]
Schedule 13 [Minor and consequential amendments]:
[Amendment No. 159 not moved.]
10.45 p.m.
The Earl of Minto The Earl of Minto moved Amendment No. 160:
Page 192, line 49, at end insert:
("( ) In section 46(1) (Travelling allowance and subsidence allowance) for "necessarily" substitute "reasonably" and add at end "which shall have regard and be reasonably comparable to rates paid to members of other public bodies and shall not be less than that paid to Members of Parliament".").
The noble Earl said: This is a short amendment which attempts to make certain that the Government are aware of the discontent in the present local authorities in the hope that in the new local authorities due attention will have been paid to the pressure that we have tried to place upon the Government to alleviate the problems that we are facing at the moment with travelling allowances and subsistence allowances. I humbly say to the Committee, as I have before, that I shall not be standing at the council elections next April so this amendment is not for my benefit. However, it is something I feel quite strongly about.
The mileage rates that local authority members are paid at the moment fall short of those paid to APT & C staff, to jurors and to Members of Parliament by quite significant figures. It seems to me a little: odd that if my Member of Parliament and I travel separately but from approximately the same distance to the Scottish Office for a meeting, he is paid 68.2p. per mile to run his car and I am paid 26.6p. per mile to run my car. I have raised this matter with the Secretary of State in the past and he has always said to me that he has nothing to do with what Members of Parliament are paid for their mileage, which seems to me quite a subtle way of making his point. I would ask the noble and learned Lord please to consider seriously the situation with regard to travelling, and the cost of travelling and the cost of living while one is away from home.
In the rural areas we do not have buses; we have to use cars. It is perfectly normal for a member of my council who has to come to a meeting to clock up 112 miles getting there and back, and he will probably do a considerable number of extra miles on the way in connection with his duties with regard to planning applications and other matters. To be losing, losing, losing all the time is not a terribly attractive proposition. One has listened, during the four days of this Committee stage, and indeed on Second Reading, to certain noble Lords talking about the need for good quality councillors in the future, but we shall not get them unless they are at least allowed to break even. They certainly cannot be expected to pay, pay, pay as some presently are having to do. I know that they are suffering from having to do that.
I ask, through Amendment No. 160, that the Government urgently look at the situation with regard to the payment of both travelling and subsistence allowances to local authority members. There is a

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further amendment associated with this in the grouping, Amendment No. 161. I have learnt this evening that there is to be a consultation document—and I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for informing me of that; I believe it is to be issued within the next three weeks or so—on this subject and Amendment No. 161, which concerns the basic attendance and special responsibility allowances for local authority members. In view of that, it will not be my intention to move Amendment No. 161 when we reach it. I beg to move.
Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove: I support the noble Earl, Lord Minto, on these two amendments. Of all the people who have spoken in this debate I believe that he probably has the best current information. The fact that the noble Earl is from a rural area makes these amendments even more important, although this matter is also of relevance to those local authority members who live in cities. It is a long time since I was involved with a local authority, when we were paid practically nothing. I know that for some people at certain times of their lives, service as councillors becomes very difficult. There is criticism of councillors, saying that they are inadequate. If we do not pay them adequately, we gain people in all parties on occasions who are not the most suitable but are the only persons available. That is a bad thing. As the noble Earl, Lord Minto, said, people do not become councillors to make money—they would not make money on the figures to which he referred—but they should not lose money. I give the noble Earl every support possible.
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie: It is not often that the noble Earl is inaccurate. However, I have to advise him that my understanding is that a Member of Parliament does not receive 68p per mile; I think he now receives 74p. That may not make the noble Earl feel any happier.
Perhaps I may say more publicly what I intimated to him earlier: that we certainly agree that those who contribute as councillors should be, in a sense, properly rewarded for the important contribution that they make. We are indeed currently considering both the system of councillors' allowances generally and the travel and subsistence rates. In doing so, we shall give careful consideration to the comments which have been made to us during our extensive consultation exercise on local government reform.
However, more particularly, as he has already indicated, following on the consultation paper which the Department of the Environment has already issued to local authority associations on changes to the existing system of councillors' allowances, we shall be consulting separately in Scotland with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and others. I anticipate, without being absolutely bound by it, that there will be a consultation paper issued, if not within days, certainly within weeks. I understand that the Secretary of State for Scotland will be meeting with CoSLA as soon as tomorrow. I have no doubt that this issue will be raised then.
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Against the issue of a consultation paper, I think it would be advisable if I were to say no more than that we wish to hear what people have to say.
The Earl of Minto: I am most grateful to the noble and learned Lord for all that he has said. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment N0.160A not moved.]
The Earl of Balfour The Earl of Balfour moved Amendment No. 160B:
Page 210, line 41, at end insert ("and after the word "London" there shall be inserted the words "and Edinburgh".").
The noble Earl said: We discussed Lords Lieutenant and Lords Provost in Clause 4. As within the Reserve Forces Act 1980 it states that the new appointments must be announced in the London Gazette, I do not understand why it should not be both the London Gazette and the Edinburgh Gazette, because the issue covers both countries. I beg to move.
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie: That was a brisk but powerful moving of the amendment by my noble friend Lord Balfour.
However, as drafted, the amendment would so amend Section 133(5) of the Reserve Forces Act 1980 that Clerks of Lieutenancy throughout Great Britain were required, at the cost of the local authority concerned, to publish in the Edinburgh Gazette as well as the London Gazette, as at present, the names of persons appointed deputy lieutenants.
The amendments which in Schedule 13 to the Bill the Government have proposed to the Reserve Forces Act 1980 have been confined to those parts of the Act which require amendment as a direct effect on the Bill now before the Committee. I question whether we should be seeking to introduce in the Bill an amendment which would impose a duty upon Clerks of Lieutenancy furth of Scotland, if indeed it would be competent to do so. I think that my noble friend will appreciate that, if the amendment were carried, not only would the Clerks to the Lieutenancy in Scotland have to advertise in the Edinburgh Gazette but all the Clerks to the Lieutenancy elsewhere in Great Britain would be under a comparable duty. That would seem to be excessive. However, I wish to consider what the noble Earl has said. I do not offer him any commitment because it seems to cover a matter that goes somewhat beyond the general scope of the Bill.
The Earl of Balfour: I am most grateful to my noble and learned friend and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The Earl of Balfour The Earl of Balfour moved Amendment No. 160C:
Page 230, line 26, at end insert:
("The Water Act 1983 (c. 23)
.—In section 3 of the Water Act 1983, paragraph (e) of subsection (5) shall be repealed.").
The noble Earl said: I should like to speak to Amendments Nos. 160C and 160D together. I may not be right up to date with some of the legislation, but this

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appeared to me to be a necessary provision to bring the Water Act within the scope of the legislation. I beg to move.
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie: This is not the first occasion on which I am grateful to my noble friend for the care with which he has investigated the legislation to see what may require to be amended as a consequence of the Bill.
I believe that Amendment No. 160C would have no real effect. The Water Act 1983 is in effect spent legislation. I believe that Section 3 has served its purpose and that the assets of the National Water Council and the Water Space Amenity Commission have been dealt with. I hope that it will be seen that it would be wasted effort to amend a provision which is spent, but I am grateful to my noble friend for raising the matter. I shall certainly double check to make sure that there is no outstanding reason for an amendment to be made.
I am also grateful to him for tabling Amendment No. 160D. It has highlighted an interesting question concerning the occupancy provisions for those who will reside in properties owned by the new water authorities.
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This is a complex area and one which will require further consideration about how best to deal with the issue. My noble friend has done us a service by pointing this out and I can assure him that we will pursue the matter as appropriate. Once we have checked the complication that he has pointed out, I shall write to him. With that assurance I hope that he will withdraw his amendment.
The Earl of Balfour: I wish equally to record my grateful thanks to my noble and learned friend for the answers he has given to the several letters I have written to him about the Bill. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 160D to 161A not moved.]
Schedule 13 agreed to.
Schedule 14 [Repeals]:
[Amendments Nos. 161B to 163 not moved.]
Schedule 14 agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
House resumed: Bill reported with an amendment.
House adjourned at eleven o'clock.

  GENOCIDE CONVENTION
  GENOCIDE CONVENTION
  RWANDA: GENOCIDE
  RWANDA: GENOCIDE
  CORMORANTS AND GOOSANDERS: BEHAVIOURAL RESEARCH
  CORMORANTS AND GOOSANDERS: BEHAVIOURAL RESEARCH
  MRS. CAROL RILEY
  MRS. CAROL RILEY
  NORTHERN IRELAND: ENERGY STRATEGY
  NORTHERN IRELAND: ENERGY STRATEGY
  ROYAL MARSDEN HOSPITAL
  ROYAL MARSDEN HOSPITAL
  ROYAL MARSDEN AND CHARING CROSS HOSPITALS
  ROYAL MARSDEN AND CHARING CROSS HOSPITALS
  GAME LICENCES
  GAME LICENCES
  FIREARMS: NATIONAL LICENSING AUTHORITY PROPOSAL
  FIREARMS: NATIONAL LICENSING AUTHORITY PROPOSAL
  FIREARM AND SHOTGUN CERTIFICATES
  FIREARM AND SHOTGUN CERTIFICATES
  CYCLING ON FOOTPATHS
  CYCLING ON FOOTPATHS
  DEET AND PYRIDOSTIGMINE
  DEET AND PYRIDOSTIGMINE
  KUWAIT METEOROLOGICAL FLIGHT: TOXIC CHEMICALS DETECTED
  KUWAIT METEOROLOGICAL FLIGHT: TOXIC CHEMICALS DETECTED
  INSETICIDES USED DURING GULF WAR
  INSETICIDES USED DURING GULF WAR