Sitting of 19 October 1992

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]
Oral Answers to Questions
  WALES

    Local Government Reform
    Mr. Jon Owen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he intends to make clear his detailed plans for local government reform.
    The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. David Hunt): May I start by welcoming the hon. Members for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd) and for Cardiff, West (Mr. Morgan) to their new positions on the Opposition Front Bench. The answer to Question 1 is as soon as possible.
    Mr. Jones: Why is it that the Prime Minister spent part of the weekend discussing subsidiarity with the rest of the European Governments yet when there is an opportunity to put subsidiarity into effect through local government reform in Wales the Government do not take it?
    Mr. Hunt: The local government reform that we are pursuing in Wales is as a result of a combined agreement at the outset between the counties and the districts that there should be unitary authorities in Wales. I recognise that there is also strong feeling, which has been expressed to me by the local authority associations, that there should be an assembly in Wales. But I say to the hon. Gentleman and all those who propose such an assembly that we have been through all that before. The people of Wales rejected an assembly by a majority of four to one.
    Mr. Rod Richards: In his consultation paper the Secretary of State said that he sought consensus. Has he received a submission from the Labour party?
    Mr. Hunt: Although we have had the most widespread consultation, I have to tell the House that I am still waiting to hear from the Labour party about what it would propose on local government reform. A manifesto published at the time of the last election says:
    "We will create"—
    this is a Labour Government—
    "a single tier of 25 to 30 unitary local authorities."
    I understand that the previous figure was 17 to 25. I hope that the Labour party will make up its mind and tell me what its plans are so that I can take them into account in the consultation.
    Mr. Murphy: The Secretary of State still has not told the House or the people of Wales whether there will be local government reform according to the timetable which he has already outlined. Does he have Treasury approval
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    for the local government plans? There are some estimates that it will cost as much as £50 million. If that is the case, can he today give us a guarantee that there will be no adverse effects on the spending proposals for Wales that he intends to make in the next few weeks?
    Mr. Hunt: I reaffirm the statement that I made in the House on 3 March in which I proposed the creation of 23 unitary authorities in Wales. I reaffirm the timetable that I announced then. The new unitary authorities will be operational as from 1995. I say to the hon. Gentleman again that there is still time for the Labour party to make detailed proposals rather than merely throw out figures of 25 to 30. The preliminary signs are that if we moved in the direction proposed in the Labour party's manifesto, there would be costs over and above those of my present proposals. Will the hon. Gentleman please make up his mind and tell us his and his party's plans?

    Homeless People
    Mr. Martyn Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement about the number of homeless people in (a) Wales and (b) Clwyd, South-West.
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Gwilym Jones): In the quarter April to June 1992, 5,919 people were accepted as homeless by local councils in Wales. However, specific figures are not available for Clwyd, South-West.
    Mr. Martyn Jones: In the light of the appalling situation shown up by the national figures, is the Minister aware of the proposals contained in a consultation paper issued by Tai Cymru which, if implemented, would take away the powers of Welsh rural housing associations to deal with rural homelessness, by giving the powers to urban bodies? There would be only 10 such bodies and they would be based in urban areas so it is likely that they would not be able to deal with rural homelessness.
    Mr. Gwilym Jones: The hon. Gentleman is right to draw attention to the important work of Tai Cymru and the housing association movement in Wales. They have been an example of tremendous success and I want to see that going forward. The consultation process is ongoing. I and Tai Cymru are maintaining an open mind about exactly how it can be taken forward.

    Heart Disease
    Mr. Simon Coombs: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what was the incidence of coronary heart disease in Wales in 1980; and what was the equivalent figure in the latest year for which statistics are available.
    Mr. Gwilym Jones: Information on the incidence of coronary heart disease in Wales is not available centrally. However, there were 9,706 deaths of Welsh residents from coronary heart disease in 1980–345 deaths per 100,000 population—compared with 9,541 deaths in 1991, a decline to 331 per 100,000 population.
    Mr. Coombs: The figures are encouraging. I am sure that the House would want to congratulate Heartbeat Wales on its campaign and on reducing the numbers of people suffering from premature coronary heart disease in

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    Wales. Can my hon. Friend tell the House what more he thinks can be done to reduce the figures still further, because they remain a cause for some concern?
    Mr. Jones: I wish to accept my hon. Friend's congratulations on behalf of Heartbeat Wales and the health promotion authority for Wales. They have begun their work well and there are already encouraging signs of a reduction in smoking among adults. We are taking forward the possibility of other measures, including opportunist testing for cholesterol.
    Dr. Kim Howells: The Minister will know that a general reduction in the level of blood pressure tends to reduce the incidence of heart disease quite dramatically. Can he tell me why the good work of Heartbeat Wales and general practitioners everywhere in Wales has been so massively undermined in the past week by the stupid and inept handling of the coal crisis? Does he not know that that has sent the blood pressure of Wales sky high? What is he going to do about it?
    Mr. Jones: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman should adopt his own advice and not raise his blood pressure unnecessarily, when we can all do better with rational discussion.

    Labour Statistics
    Mr. Roy Hughes: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what was the figure and percentage of male unemployment in Wales at the latest available date.
    Mr. David Hunt: A total of 102,200 and 13.5 per cent.
    Mr. Hughes: Does the Secretary of State recall telling the recent Conservative party conference that it has been a good year for the party? Although I appreciate that his colleagues do not tell him much these days, may I remind him of the mass unemployment, record bankruptcies, escalating repossessions, the debacle over the exchange rate mechanism, the troubles over Maastricht and the crisis in the mining industry? If this is a good year, will the Secretary of State outline what constitutes a bad one?
    Mr. Hunt: The hon. Gentleman should think carefully before he downplays our achievements in Wales, where thousands of new jobs have come to declining coal mining areas. By our positive partnership in Wales we have shown the rest of the United Kingdom what can be done to bring new investment and jobs to those parts of Wales.
    Mr. Roger Evans: Can my right hon. Friend assist us by saying what new initiatives he has in mind for economic development in Wales?
    Mr. Hunt: I am happy to announce that I am issuing a consultation paper on the establishment of the Welsh economic council, because I am determined to build on the positive partnership that we have in Wales, which has brought us those new jobs and investment.
    Madam Speaker: Question No. 5——
    Mr. Rowlands: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
    Madam Speaker: I would normally take points of order at the end of questions but if I have breached our Standing Orders I must listen now.
    Mr. Rowlands: Question No. 4 was on male unemployment. They are closing pits in my constituency——
    Madam Speaker: Order. I am genuinely interested if I have breached Standing Orders. I have not done so. I shall call the hon. Gentleman as soon as I can on some other occasion.
    Mrs. Clwyd: May we tell the Secretary of State exactly what his achievements have been since he became Secretary of State. Unemployment has increased by 46,500. That is his achievement and every one of us feels that he—[Interruption.]
    Madam Speaker: Order. The hon. Lady is responding on Question 4. As a Front-Bench Member she is perfectly entitled to do so. If the hon. Gentleman on the Back Benches has anything further to say, perhaps he will see me after Question Time.
    Mrs. Clwyd: In case the Secretary of State missed the point, I said that since he became Secretary of State for Wales his achievement is 46,500 people unemployed in Wales. We all feel that his answers are totally unconvincing. It is clear that he was never told, never consulted and never informed about job losses in the coal industry. Does he realise that Welsh people are fed up with having no clout and no voice in the Cabinet? Surely any self-respecting Minister who has been treated like a tea boy outside the board room door should resign, particularly when the Government have shown how incompetent they are, how many lies they have told, and how bankrupt they are. It is time for them to give up and for the Minister to resign.
    Madam Speaker: Order. That was somewhat remiss of the hon. Lady—[Interruption.] Order. I am sure that the hon. Lady would not want to leave that impression in the Official Report. Would she like to rephrase it?
    Mrs. Clwyd: How misleading the Minister's tenure as Secretary of State has been if he claims that he has reduced unemployment. He certainly has not. He has increased it by 46,500 since he came into office. Let him explain that.
    Mr. Hunt: The hon. Lady has made a number of accusations, one of which was that I was in ignorance. If blissful ignorance were a reason for resignation, there would not be many hon. Members on the Opposition Benches. Unemployment in Wales has fallen from just under 180,000 in 1986 to just under 130,000 today. Furthermore, I am pleased to be able to announce today an investment package involving a further £10 million of Government regional assistance, bringing 1,300 new jobs to Wales and safeguarding 500 other jobs. Government investment for regional assistance this year has meant that we have already made offers totalling £50 million, and more than 9,000 new and safeguarded jobs are forecast. That is action on the Government's part and we intend to bring new jobs to Wales.
    Mr. Rowlands: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
    Madam Speaker: Order. I must ask the hon. Gentleman to resume his seat now. We must now move to Question 5.

    Hospital Trusts
    Mr. Gareth Wardell: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what formal mechanism he will use to monitor hospital trusts in Wales.
    Mr. Gwilym Jones: As well as monitoring activity and performance by district health authorities and OP fund holders, Welsh Office monitoring of NHS trusts will be centred around the business plans which all new trusts are required to produce each year. That will be in addition to the accountability to the public. New trusts are expected to hold an annual general meeting, produce an annual report and publish audited accounts.
    Mr. Wardell: As someone who is extremely dissatisfied with the lack of proper monitoring of hospital trusts that the Minister has just announced, may I ask what he will do to ensure that early-warning signs are in place if those trusts get into financial difficulty? When they do, will he pick up the tab if they are in debt?
    Mr. Jones: Officials in the Welsh Office are already considering how best to monitor the business plans. I envisage that to be an ongoing process so that it can work as helpfully as possible.
    Mr. Conway: Is my hon. Friend aware of the large number of patients from mid and north Wales who use the excellent facilities supplied at the ear, nose and throat hospital in Shrewsbury? Will he ensure that, when monitoring the position, he also keeps a weather eye on what is happening on the other side of the border? If the suggested plans are carried out to move that hospital to the east, it would not only inconvenience a great number of my constituents in Shrewsbury, but greatly inconvenience patients from mid and north Wales who use the hospital's excellent facilities.
    Mr. Jones: Yes, I am aware of the position. My hon. Friend is right to raise that important matter, which I trust will be fully taken into consideration.
    Mr. Morgan: The Government's favourite theme song at the moment is, "I'm in the mood for U-turns"—do U-turns also apply to the formation of national health service trusts? I should like to know that before the Government continue with the disastrous policy in Wales where, so far, there is fortunately only one trust hospital. The Government now insist on creating a split between the purchaser and the provider, while the electricity industry is confusing the role of purchaser and provider. Does the Secretary of State agree that the Government's hallmark has been first, meddling, then bungling, and finally—I hope that this will be confirmed later today—backtracking?
    Mr. Jones: The hon. Gentleman must curb his impatience to hear about the further progress that I hope we shall make. Meanwhile, I assure him that all the representations received will be fully considered in the evaluation of NHS trust applications. No trust applications will be approved unless my right hon. Friend and I are convinced that they will mean an improvement for patients.

    Hospital Provision
    Mr. Richards: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he next plans to visit Clwyd to discuss hospital provision; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Gwilym Jones: My right hon. Friend has no plans to do so at present, but I am hoping to visit Ysbyty Glan Clwyd next month.
    Mr. Richards: Is my hon. Friend aware that Ysbyty Glan Clwyd is one of the best hospitals in the land? When he visits it will he bear in mind that the workers, doctors and residents in the hospital's vicinity eagerly await his decision on the formation of a trust for the Glan Clwyd group of hospitals?
    Mr. Jones: It would be invidious for me to agree with my hon. Friend that that hospital is the best, but I agree that it is one of Wales's very fine hospitals. Our decision on that application will be announced as soon as possible. I know that my hon. Friend looks forward to that announcement with interest.
    Mr. Hanson: When the Secretary of State visits Clwyd will he consider the fact that, on 9 April, four of the five Labour Members of Parliament elected in those constituencies proposed a programme opposing opt-out hospitals? We want to oppose the opting out of hospitals in Clwyd. When the Secretary of State is in my county will he come to visit the Point of Ayr colliery in my constituency, which is closing with 1,000 job losses? Will he gain from the lessons to be learnt from meeting the mineworkers and their families, and will he learn from me that health does not just involve hospitals, but is about prevention, unemployment and other factors that matter to people—which the Government are taking away from them?
    Mr. Jones: I am looking forward to visiting Clwyd next month when I shall visit Ysbyty Glan Clwyd. I assure the hon. Gentleman that his and every other representation on new trusts will be carefully considered. I can do no better than repeat the assurance that I have already made: no approvals will be given unless my right hon. Friend and I are convinced that they will be of advantage to patients.
    Mr. John Marshall: When my hon. Friend speaks of hospital provision, will he confirm that NHS hospital trusts now treat many more patients than they did 18 months ago? Is that not a sign of progress and should we not praise the work of the trusts instead of denigrating it?
    Mr. Jones: I could not agree more with my hon. Friend's sentiments. There is only one example of a trust in Wales, the Pembrokeshire trust. After its first four months, the Pembrokeshire trust is already showing worthwhile increases of both in-patients and out-patients. Such progress should be hailed.
    Mrs. Clwyd: In making hospital provision, does the Welsh Office recognise the link between unemployment and ill health? Is the hon. Gentleman going to make provision for the massive number of unemployed who will come on stream in Wales due to Government policies? Does he recognise that 25 per cent. of the Rhondda's population is permanently sick—three times the number of permanently sick in the Prime Minister's constituency of Huntingdon? Does the hon. Gentleman recognise what

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    unemployment does both to the unemployed and to their families, and how it causes ill health among those families? Will he recognise that important fact and make provision for it?
    Mr. Jones: I can reassure the hon. Lady that that provision is already in place in the strategies for health that we are implementing well in Wales. The importance of trying to make health gains among vulnerable groups is already identified as a specific target on which we are determined to make progress.

    Infrastructure
    Mr. Dafis: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how much is currently allocated by his Department to road and rail infrastructure projects within (a) Ceredigion and (b) Pembrokeshire; and if he will publish an estimated figure for infrastructure expenditure by his Department in Ceredigion and Pembrokeshire for 1993–94.
    The Minister of State, Welsh Office (Sir Wyn Roberts): In 1992–93 some £10.5 million is directly allocated to road projects in Dyfed. Additional expenditure is incurred by local authorities using credit approvals and revenue support grant provided by the Welsh Office.
    Expenditure decisions for 1993–94 will be announced following the public expenditure survey. Expenditure figures are not available by district. Government funding of British Rail does not come through the Welsh Office.
    Mr. Dafis: May I remind the Minister of the importance of upgrading the A40 as a way of enhancing, among other things, the role of Fishguard as the gateway to the Republic of Ireland? Will the Welsh Office and the Minister support EC proposals for such an upgrading, which does not involve driving a motorway through a national park and which is a distortion of the situation? Will the Welsh Office commit funds to this upgrading, and will it ask for EC funds for the same proposal?
    Sir Wyn Roberts: I am glad to tell the hon. Gentleman that I agree about the importance of the A40. Since 1979, we have spent more than £90 million on the A40 and on the A477 in Dyfed; and almost £80 million has been spent on the M4 in that area. Furthermore, I am happy to tell him that about nine major trunk road schemes costing £81 million are programmed in Dyfed. Six of those schemes are on the A40; one is on the A477 and others are on the A483 and the A487.
    Of course we shall consider any proposals from the European Commission for improving communications, but, as I have already said, we do not approve of motorways being built through national parks.
    Mr. Donald Anderson: Will the Minister give a clear undertaking that the pre-election promises on infrastructure expenditure in Wales will not be cut in the current spending round?
    Sir Wyn Roberts: I cannot, alas, give the hon. Gentleman any such assurance. No Minister would ever give such an assurance in advance of the public expenditure survey round. I am sure that he will appreciate that there is going to be a very difficult PES round, but we shall of course try to adhere to our priorities.

    Abattoirs
    Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received on the effect of EC directives on small abattoirs in Wales.
    Mr. David Hunt: Several.
    Mr. Jones: The Secretary of State will be aware of the excellent news for Anglesey in the form of the opening of the Gaerwen meat plant. I congratulate the farming unions, the local authorities, the Welsh Development Agency and others who have worked so hard to reopen it.
    The Secretary of State is aware that the main concern for small abattoirs has been the introduction of hygiene regulations by the European Community, which could lead to small abattoirs facing bills from veterinary surgeons of up to £40 an hour. That would virtually destroy the small abattoir industry in Wales, so can he assure us that small abattoirs will be exempt from the charges so that they can continue their excellent work?
    Mr. Hunt: I am rather disappointed that the hon. Gentleman left out the Welsh Office from the list of those to whom he paid tribute. I am very pleased indeed that the £5 million investment by McIntosh Reynolds will go ahead, creating 230 jobs. I pay tribute to the officials in my office who, with all the agencies and local authorities that the hon. Gentleman mentioned, have been working extremely hard to make sure that the project goes ahead. I am sure that it was just an oversight on the hon. Gentleman's part.
    I recognise that supervision by official veterinarians is a requirement of the directive. There may well be an increase in cost for the industry, but we have written to local authorities encouraging them to take practical measures to keep those costs down. I shall bear in mind the hon. Gentleman's point.

    Learning Difficulties
    Mr. Michael: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what plans he has to improve the status of children and adults with learning difficulties—mental handicap—in Wales; and if he will widen the scope of educational training and employment opportunities available to them.
    Sir Wyn Roberts: Our unique and successful mental handicap strategy has provided the impetus to enable people with learning difficulties to share the same opportunities and status as other members of the community.
    Mr. Michael: Does the Minister recognise that there is a dearth of day care opportunities for adults with learning difficulties? Against that background, the shortage of education and training opportunities and, above all, of job opportunities for adults with learning difficulties is a major problem for those people and for their carers. Will the Minister undertake to hold a proper inquiry into that matter and make specific proposals for adequate services?
    Sir Wyn Roberts: I am happy to tell the hon. Gentleman that this year's strategy, involving the spending of about £41.5 million, will be relaunched next year. When that happens, there will be increased emphasis on education as a core service and a clear focus on the important period of adolescence. I am aware of the hon. Gentleman's considerable interest in the South Glamorgan training and

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    enterprise council's Track 2000 scheme. He will know that the local TEC funds 35 places under that scheme. Every effort is being made to cater for those with special needs who are eligible for help under the employment action programme. I assure the hon. Gentleman that we shall keep a careful eye on the situation.

    Housing Statistics
    Mr. Jonathan Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what are the latest figures for housing starts and completions undertaken by Housing for Wales/Tai Cymru.
    Mr. Gwilym Jones: I am happy to tell my hon. Friend that Housing for Wales is on course to a record of more than 4,000 completions this year.
    Mr. Evans: I congratulate my former colleagues in Housing for Wales and the Welsh housing associations on that splendid achievement. Among my hon. Friends and, I think, throughout Wales, there is recognition of the importance of maintaining investment in our housing associations in the years ahead. During the election, there were questions about whether those commitments would be met. I ask my hon. Friend to note, please, that the success that he has reported today must be maintained in the years ahead through the Government maintaining their investment.
    Mr. Jones: I hear what my hon. Friend says. Our arrangements have been successful at levering in outside sectors. I know that he will understand when I say that I cannot anticipate the public expenditure round.
    Dr. Marek: The Minister knows that, for many years, councils have been selling council houses in Wales and that they have hundreds of millions of pounds which he and the Welsh Office stop them spending on the building of further council houses. It would be a help in getting rid of the present recession if the hon. Gentleman allowed local authorities to spend that money on building more housing in Wales. Why will he not do that?
    Mr. Jones: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman has got his figures wrong. At the start of this financial year, local councils had £32.7 million of capital receipts, which they are encouraged to use. Over and above that, after allowing for all redemptions, the housing revenue accounts of Welsh local councils mean that local people are having to repay a net debt of almost £1 billion.

    Roads
    Mr. Knox: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what has been the total spending by central Government on roads in Wales since 1979; and how many miles of motorway and trunk roads have been laid since that year.
    Sir Wyn Roberts: Since 1979, total net spending by central Government on the roads programme in Wales is over £2 billion, including £397 million transport grant. Twenty-two miles of motorway and more than 151 miles of trunk road have been completed. Seven schemes totalling almost 17 miles are under construction.
    Mr. Knox: I congratulate my right hon. Friend on the level of road building in Wales since he became a Minister
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    more than 13 years ago. Does he agree that the road building programme has been a considerable help in attracting inward investment to Wales?
    Sir Wyn Roberts: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his congratulations to the Welsh Office and to me on this extensive road programme, which has undoubtedly been of considerable assistance in attracting inward investment. It is as well to remind the House that last year we had a record year for inward investment and attracted 208 projects, costing £1.1 billion in terms of investment and creating or safeguarding some 16,779 jobs. This year, between January and September, we attracted 159 projects, costing £816 million and creating or safeguarding 11,069 jobs. Today, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State announced 17 projects, creating 1,300 jobs and safeguarding 500 more.
    Mr. Hain: Does the Minister recall that, last year, he gave the House the commitment that he would proceed with the construction of the missing link of the A465 between Aberdulais and Glynneath in this financial year, if possible? There is still no sign of that work starting. Therefore, may I have an absolute assurance that that project will not fall victim to the autumn statement next month if it slips over into next year?
    Sir Wyn Roberts: I am happy to tell the hon. Gentleman that we continue to attach considerable importance to the scheme and are spending nearly £3 million this year on advance works. A start on the main works will be made when resources permit.

    Labour Statistics
    Mr. Wigley: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what are the latest employment figures for Wales; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. David Hunt: In June 1992, according to the latest available figure, the civilian work force in employment in Wales numbered 1,146,000. We are lucky in Wales to have a good positive partnership, and I very much hope that the Welsh economic council, whose establishment I announced today, will build on that. I am happy to tell the House that I shall want the council to address the following issues: first, the need to continue to train a highly skilled work force; secondly, the need to keep Wales at the top of the inward investment league table; thirdly, support for small businesses; fourthly, creation of an enterprise culture; fifthly, enhanced use of local suppliers; sixthly, an export drive for Wales; seventhly, diversification and expansion of our economy; and, finally, the need to expand our high technology sector and establish further centres for research and development.
    Mr. Wigley: We have just had a statement that should have been made on the Floor of the House so that Members of Parliament could ask questions. Interestingly, there was no reference to the need to raise per capita incomes in Wales, which have dropped dramatically in the past 10 years. Is the Secretary of State aware of the devastation felt in Wales as established factories shed labour and small companies go bankrupt, to which must be added the pit closures of the past week? Does he realise that it is not just a question whether the messenger forgot to reach him with a message about the closures? It is a question of why he was not involved in the decisions being

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    taken on these vital matters. How can the right hon. Gentleman continue in that job when his fellow Cabinet Ministers have so little confidence in him?
    Mr. Hunt: The hon. Gentleman criticises me for making a statement but I must refer him to his question:
    "To ask the Secretary of State for Wales, what are the latest employment figures for Wales; and if he will make a statement."
    At nationalisation, Wales had 220 pits and the coal industry employed 123,000 people. Before last week's announcement we were down to two pits—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"]. Before the announcement on 20 August, we were down to two pits employing just over 1,000 people. The answer is that Wales is not to be pessimistic about the future but must go out and get new jobs. The new jobs that have come to Wales mean that overall unemployment in Wales has fallen below the United Kingdom average this year for the first time since 1924. The hon. Gentleman should be applauding that—not talking down our achievements.
    Mr. Rowlands: It is a cruel deception for the Secretary of State to pretend that he will match job losses through these announcements. How many jobs has he announced today for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney, where we have lost nearly 4,000 jobs at Hoover, where firms have been closed, where male unemployment is more than 20 per cent. and where two thirds of the jobs created over the past five years have been part time?
    Will the right hon. Gentleman give me a simple answer to a simple question? Did he manage either last night or at today's Cabinet meeting to get a reprieve for the Taff Merthyr colliery, on the basis that it was never meant to be closed this month or, more specifically, next Friday?
    Mr. Hunt: I recognise that the timing was changed, but on 20 August British Coal made an announcement with a view to the closure of the Taff Merthyr colliery.
    I shall let the hon. Gentleman have details of the jobs that have been brought to Merthyr. If he examines the inward investment and regional assistance that have come to Wales this year, he will find that we have brought tens of thousands of jobs to Wales, and that we shall continue to do.
    Mr. Wigley: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
    Madam Speaker: Order. I take points of order at the end of questions.
    Mr. Wigley: In view of the entirely inadequate reply to my question, I give notice that I wish to raise on the Adjournment the inadequate apology of the Secretary of State for unemployment in Wales.
    Madam Speaker: The hon. Gentleman is a skilled parliamentarian and I have noted what he has said.

  CHURCH COMMISSIONERS

    Stipends
    Mr. Harry Greenway: To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, representing the Church Commissioners, how much income the Church Commissioners expect from parish and diocesan contributions for stipends during the current financial year; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Michael Alison (Second Church Estates Commissioner, representing the Church Commissioners): We expect that parishes will raise about £65 million towards stipends this year. This represents just over 40 per cent. of their total cost.
    Mr. Greenway: Will my right hon. Friend accept that we must not become involved in the law of diminishing returns on the number of clergy to do the job and that the Church will die in that sense if we do? Will he ensure that sufficient money is raised by one means or another to pay enough clergy to do the job? Has he read yesterday's sermon by one of his constituents, the Archbishop of York? What view does he take of that?
    Mr. Alison: That was a somewhat double-barrelled supplementary question—perhaps I should address the second barrel of it. The Archbishop of York is a constituent and friend of mine, but that does not mean that I have to agree with everything that he says. The doctrine of the infallibility of bishops and archbishops is not a doctrine of the Church of England. Perhaps I should put the corollary more positively: the doctrine of the fallibility of bishops and archbishops is a doctrine of the Church of England.
    Mr. Frank Field: To what extent has the problem been exacerbated by the commissioners' borrowing and buying into the property market just before it collapsed?
    Mr. Alison: The hon. Gentleman will know that, apart from dividends and rents, the commissioners have no source of income other than borrowing. The collapse of the property market has hit the Church Commissioners extremely hard, like many other investors, but the hon. Gentleman will recall that when the stock exchange market collapsed in 1987 the Church beneficiaries were entirely unaffected because there was much investment in property.

    Set-aside
    Mr. Tony Banks: To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, representing the Church Commissioners, how much income will be derived by the commissioners from the common agricultural policy set-aside scheme in the current financial year.
    Mr. Alison: The commissioners do not, as a matter of policy, farm any land themselves. Any set-aside payments will be made to their tenants.
    Mr. Banks: At a time when pits are facing closure because they are said to be uneconomic, is it not wrong for any land that is owned by the Church to be attracting money when nothing is grown on it? The right hon. Gentleman knows far more about this than I do, but did not St. Paul say something about a man reaping what he sows? I can see exactly what is being reaped by some tenants—a lot of payments from the taxpayer. I cannot see what the tenants are sowing, other than discontent.
    Mr. Alison: The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that, paradoxically, much contentment will accrue for a large number of urban dwellers who have strong ecological and environmental sympathies. They will find that, instead of cornfields, there will be many acres of beautiful flowing grass and lovely cornflowers growing. That will be widely appreciated by a large number of people.

    Parsons' Freehold
    Mr. John Marshall: To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, representing the Church Commissioners, what assessment he has made of the financial consequences of the abolition of the parsons' freehold.
    Mr. Alison: The financial consequences of any changes to the existing system of freehold will depend on the nature of those changes. A General Synod steering group on clergy terms and conditions of service is examining freehold, among other matters, and the commissioners stand ready to help to assess any financial aspects as and when that group's work is more advanced.
    Mr. Marshall: Can my right hon. Friend confirm that the parsons' freehold and the absence of women priests act as a barrier to effective ministry?
    Mr. Alison: My hon. Friend will appreciate that the parsons' freehold is not now an unconditional reality. Parsons who secured livings after 1975—which accounts for the overwhelming majority—are obliged to lose their freehold at the age of 70, so there is already a severe diminution in the absolute reality of the parsons' freehold. Whether or not it will be further reduced remains to be seen when the Synod reaches its conclusion.

  LORD CHANCELLOR'S DEPARTMENT

    Immigration
    Mr. Madden: To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department in how many cases since June, to date, the Home Office has applied to adjourn immigration appeal and immigration appeal tribunals to enable applications from spouses with children with a right of abode in the United Kingdom to be reviewed.
    The Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department (Mr, John M. Taylor): In the period June to 14 October, the Home Office applied for adjournments in the type of case to which the hon. Member refers on 249 occasions before immigration adjudicators and on 11 occasions before the immigration appeal tribunal.
    Mr. Madden: Although I accept that the reuniting of limited numbers of families separated under the primary purpose rule is welcome, does not the hon. Gentleman accept that that rule remains manifestly unfair and unjust? Will he urge Home Office Ministers to abolish it immediately, and warn them that it would be wholly unacceptable for them to replace the primary purpose rule by extending to four years the probationary period before which a spouse can apply for permanent settlement? That action would result in a storm of protest.
    Mr. Taylor: The state of the law is entirely a matter for the Home Office, and it is not my place to give it guidance.
    Mr. Dickens: Does my hon. Friend agree that entry to the United Kingdom must be controlled in a strict but fair manner? Every illegal immigrant who enters the United Kingdom takes up a job or receives benefits that we cannot afford. If I had a pound for every illegal immigrant in this country I would be a very rich man, and there would be plenty of jobs for everyone.
    Mr. Taylor: As ever, my hon. Friend expresses himself more vividly and powerfully than I can, and I completely agree with certain of his remarks.
    Mr. Boateng: Is not the Minister well aware that in this matter—as in housing, welfare and employment law—the law centres movement makes a valuable contribution to the cost-effective provision of legal services? The Minister knows that those services are under threat from local authority cuts throughout the country. Will his Department do something to prevent the disruption of legal services, or are we to see only more hand-wringing and head-scratching from this wretched Government?
    Mr. Taylor: I do not think that I am in either the hand-wringing or the head-scratching business—but I am in the business of welcoming the hon. Gentleman to the Opposition Front Bench. He brings to his job considerable knowledge of his subject and, in particular, of law centres.
    I know that the Lord Chancellor is personally sympathetic towards law centres. Part of the difficulty is that they are often so beset with local disputation that it is hard for an external agency to contribute constructively.

    Welsh Language
    Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones: To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department what steps are being taken to promote the use of the Welsh language in civil and criminal courts in Wales.
    Mr. John M. Taylor: Section 1 of the Welsh Language Act 1967 makes provision for the Welsh language to be spoken in any legal proceedings in Wales. My Department is committed to providing a responsive service to Welsh-speaking members of the community and is shortly to issue a policy statement that will set out the way in which that will be achieved.
    Mr. Jones: The Parliamentary Secretary will be aware that, very shortly, a new Welsh language Bill will be before the House. Can he confirm——
    Several Hon. Members rose——
    Madam Speaker: Order. Will the hon. Members who are standing please sit down?
    Mr. Jones: Will the Bill contain a provision for hearings to be conducted through the medium of the Welsh language, either by defendants in criminal trials or by litigants in civil trials? If so, will sufficient resources be allocated to enable court staff to be trained in the use of Welsh in courts?
    Mr. Taylor: The Welsh Language Act 1967 and the Welsh Courts Act 1942 provide Welsh speakers with safeguards. I do not think that I should comment on legislation that has not yet been introduced in the House, but the hon. Gentleman will at least concede this much to me: although I am an Englishman, I spent four years as the Government's Welsh Whip, and I always wish to be helpful in regard to Welsh affairs.

    Juries
    Mr. Cohen: To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department what information he keeps on the racial composition of juries.
    Mr. John M. Taylor: My Department does not routinely keep records on the racial composition of juries; however, a limited research exercise was carried out at a number of Crown court centres in November 1990, when jurors' race was recorded from observation.
    Mr. Cohen: Have not the Society of Black Lawyers and the Commission for Racial Equality spoken in favour of multiracial juries? According to the CRE,
    "An all-white jury may have no members capable of challenging prejudice."
    Are not the lists of juries predominantly "white male"? [Interruption.] Why will the Government not make a simple change, enabling a multiracial or a mixed-sex jury to be convened if either the defence or the prosecution requests it?
    Mr. Taylor: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will forgive me. I did not hear all of his question, but I shall do my best to reply. [Interruption.]
    Madam Speaker: Order. It really is very disruptive if Front Benchers cannot hear the questions that they are asked. I hope that the House will now settle down and listen to the Parliamentary Secretary's reply.
    Mr. Taylor: During the informal observation of jury composition, the Society of Black Lawyers was consulted by the Lord Chancellor, and that was very much the intention. Meanwhile, the law on jury selection is a matter for the Home Office. Jury composition in practice is based on random selection, but the hon. Member may be pleased to know that the royal commission is examining the ethnic composition of juries as part of its remit.

    Legal Aid
    Mr. Skinner: To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department whether he will consider introducing improvements to the legal aid system; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. John M. Taylor: The legal aid scheme is kept under constant review to ensure that it is operating as effeciently and effectively as possible.
    Mr. Skinner: Is there not something seriously wrong with the allocation of legal aid when a miner receiving redundancy pay is not allowed such aid to enable him to sue British Coal for stealing £735 million from the pension fund, but, as I read the other day, the Maxwell brothers, who have been charged with stealing the Mirror pension funds, have been granted it? Where is the classless society represented in such double standards?
    Mr. Taylor: I thought that the hon. Gentleman would ask that question.
    Mr. Skinner: Go on, then. Answer it.
    Mr. Taylor: I cannot comment on individual cases. The grant of legal aid in civil cases is dependent on whether there will be any benefits gained from litigation. In criminal cases, the test is the means of the applicant and the interests of justice. Either the Legal Aid Board or the court independently assesses these cases. If people are aggrieved by someone having been granted legal aid, they can object—and that includes the hon. Gentleman.
    Sir Ivan Lawrence: As two of the problems concerning civil legal aid are, first, that it requires the Government to
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    sign a blank cheque and, secondly, that it excludes a large number of people from access to the courts, will my hon. Friend give serious consideration to encouraging private legal aid insurance, which would relieve both those problems?
    Mr. Taylor: I thank my hon. and learned Friend for his question. There is a role for legal expenses insurance. I think that it is to be pursued. My hon. and learned Friend may have a valuable role to play. We also have progress to make in respect of conditional fees for which the courts and legal services legislation expressly paved the way.
    Mr. Steen: To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department what plans he has to review the working of the legal aid fund.
    Mr. John M. Taylor: The working of the legal aid fund is kept under constant review.
    Mr. Steen: Is the Minister aware that in each of my surgeries an increasing number of wives and young children are being—[Interruption.]
    Madam Speaker: Order. We are still in Question Time and the hon. Member for South Hams (Mr. Steen) has the Floor.
    Mr. Steen: Is the Minister aware that in each of my—[Interruption.]
    Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Steen—third time lucky.
    Mr. Steen: Is the Minister aware that in each of my surgeries in the last year an increasing number of wives with young children have told me that they have been abandoned by their husbands, leaving the state to pick up the tab? Will the Minister find a way of ensuring that husbands who abandon their wives and young children do not receive legal aid and that wives who need legal aid obtain it so that they can pursue their husbands and get the money for their children and for themselves?
    Mr. Taylor: Any marriage breakdown—it is always a tragedy—is especially a tragedy for the children. Whatever the rights and wrongs of legal assistance may be in the case of the parting parents, the Lord Chancellor's Department would wish there to be a legal aid system for matrimonial affairs that looks after the interests of the children, which are absolutely paramount.
    Mr. Cryer: Is not the legal aid system designed to help people on low incomes? Will not a system of flat fees for legal aid inevitably work against very poor people, who will be deprived of proper legal representation, particularly in lengthy or complicated cases? Will the Minister reject entirely today in Parliament the concept of flat fees?
    Mr. Taylor: I will not in any way forswear the concept of standard fees, which are a good idea. Standard fees tend to reward proficiency. The only consequence of legal aid as it is at the moment is that the bloke who takes longest gets paid most. That does not seem to be very satisfactory.

    Divorce Law Reform
    Mr. Wicks: To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department if he will make a statement concerning his plans for divorce law reform.
    Mr. John M. Taylor: I acknowledge the hon. Gentleman's expertise in social and family policy. The Lord Chancellor is considering reform of divorce law as part of the rolling programme of family law and business. To oversee this programme, the family law and administration working party was established in 1989. There are also the proposals of the Law Commission entitled, "The Grounds for Divorce."
    Mr. Wicks: I note the House's considerable interest in this question. Does the Minister agree that, as every year the parents of 150,000 children under 16 divorce, the time for inaction by his Department has long since passed?
    Mr. Taylor: I agree; but it is extremely important, in a subject about which people hold strong, sincere and deep views, that we get the question of reforming the divorce law right rather than simply achieve speed. It is inevitable that, during the discussions, there will be a great deal of deliberation about mediation, particularly if we are to depart from the traditional adversarial role in divorce matters and from the concept of fault and blame.

    Courts (Public Confidence)
    Mr. Bennett: To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department what plans he has to improve public confidence in the courts.
    Mr. John M. Taylor: I refer the hon. Member to the statement made by the Lord Chancellor in another place and by the Home Secretary in the House on 14 March 1991, announcing the establishment of the Royal Commission on criminal justice.
    Mr. Bennett: Will the Minister explain why the Government set up the May inquiry and then decided to abandon it when it appeared to be coming up with a report critical of senior judges? If we are to restore the reputation of courts, it is important that such an inquiry is completed and that criticism of judges is published.
    Mr. Taylor: The vast majority of criminal cases are dealt with in a perfectly satisfactory way. There have, however, been very proper anxieties expressed about some cases that have led to convictions being quashed. That is why the royal commission was set up, and it is not for me to anticipate its findings.

Coal Industry
3.31 pm
The President of the Board of Trade and Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Mr. Michael Heseltine): With permission, Madam Speaker, I should like to make a statement about the coal industry.
Last week I agreed that British Coal should announce that it would cease production at 31 pits over the course of the next five months with the loss of up to 30,000 jobs. I very much regretted that British Coal had had to reach this decision, but I accepted its advice that these steps were necessary in order to bring supply closer into line with demand. I then announced myself the outline of a package of redundancy and special assistance measures, the further details of which I am now able to give the House.
Originally I intended to announce details of the new coal contracts with the electricity supply industry and the future employment prospects for British Coal to the House before the summer recess. This timetable was not achieved. I would have liked to have made the announcement to the House today, but the electricity industry has still not agreed contracts for coal after 1 April 1993. In the meantime, pressure on British Coal, fuelled by reported leaks, intensified and I therefore agreed to allow it to proceed. I regret this discourtesy to the House. I accept full responsibility for that decision, as I do for the consequent events.
Remorseless changes in circumstances have been reducing demand and employment in the coal industry for the past 80 years. The fastest rate of decline was in the 1960s, when 300,000 jobs were lost in a decade, including 186,000 under the Labour Governments of 1964–70. At present, British Coal is producing 88 million tonnes, with 65 million tonnes going to the electricity generators. It is most unlikely that British Coal will be able to sell more than 40 million tonnes to the generators as from next April. The economic case for a substantial reduction in capacity therefore remains compelling.
Nevertheless, the Government recognise the concern at the speed of the rundown and about the very great difficulties it would cause to the communities involved. We have therefore concluded that, for the time being, British Coal should be allowed to proceed with the closure of only 10 pits, which it has told me are currently loss making and have no prospect of viability in the foreseeable future. The pits which fall into this category are Vane Tempest, Grimethorpe, Houghton Main, Markham Main, Trentham, Parkside, Cotgrove, Silverhill, Betws and Taff Merthyr.
Nevertheless, it is clearly important that British Coal demonstrably meets its statutory duties to consult and notify and take account of the result of consultation. No closure will therefore take place until after the statutory consultation period has been completed.
In the case of all other closures and redundancies, I have asked British Coal to introduce a moratorium until early in the new year, except for those which may be agreed by the work force at the pits concerned. This will provide time for negotiations to continue, and, hopefully, to be concluded, on the new coal contracts. During this period there will be no compulsory redundancies, although voluntary redundancies will be allowed to proceed under the terms announced by British Coal last week.
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During this moratorium, the Government and British Coal will set out the full case for the closures which British Coal planned and to which I agreed. The Government will also provide an opportunity for hon. Members to debate the issues. In addition, we will carry out widespread consultation with all those concerned over the next three months. We will then announce our conclusions following those consultations to Parliament in the new year. If, following this process, the Government and British Coal's judgment is confirmed, then British Coal will proceed with a phased programme of colliery closures aimed at reducing surplus capacity as soon as possible.
It is clear that many coalfield communities will continue to suffer significant job losses. I am now able to give the House more details about the package of measures to assist those communities.
In the short term, people will need immediate help to find jobs, to retrain, and to construct a new future for themselves. In the longer term, these areas will need help with infrastructure to attract new industries and business.
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment has written to the Chairman of the Employment Select Committee with details of a package of measures worth approximately £75 million over two years. A copy of the letter has been placed in the Library.
The training and enterprise councils in the areas concerned will have a major part to play. They will want to ensure that all those affected are offered help from the relevant agencies, including British Coal Enterprise and Government Departments. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales will be taking similar action in Wales.
One of the best ways of attracting new industries and long-term investment is the creation of enterprise zones. The Government intend to introduce new enterprise zones in the areas where they would be most effective.
Last week I said that we would ask English Estates to advise on a programme of property and sites provision. On the basis of preliminary discussions with English Estates, the Government have decided to make available to the corporation, and in due course to the Urban Regeneration Agency, £75 million of additional money over the next three years. In addition, the corporation will in this year spend around £10 million in those areas.
My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment is also making nearly £2 million available today to the Tyne and Wear development corporation. This will enable it to make an early start on the further extension of the Sunderland enterprise park and the new Viking industrial park in south Tyneside.
We have already announced that three areas—Doncaster, Barnsley and Mansfield—will get enhanced status when the new assisted area map is announced in the new year. More areas will be upgraded in the review. This will ensure that firms interested in investing there are eligible for grant assistance. We will continue to look at other areas.
These major initiatives will be underpinned by further smaller regeneration measures. I intend to extend the coverage of regional enterprise grants to all coal closure areas. This will help small businesses there with investment and innovation projects. I will strengthen inward investment efforts in these areas. I will see that additional resources are available to local development agencies.
My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment is also acting immediately to alleviate

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the effects of the closures. He is today setting up a coalfield areas fund. Up to £5 million will be made available for expenditure in this financial year and next. My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State is writing to the local authorities in the affected areas asking them urgently for proposals on how this money can best be spent to help those made redundant. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales will be making a separate announcement on resources in Wales.
I am aware that these closures will have a serious impact on coal industry suppliers and we are already discussing with them ways to assist diversification and the identification of new markets. These measures will all bring new money to the affected areas. We are talking about £165 million altogether. I know that this will make a major impact in transforming the economies of these areas.
These programmes will be carried out by a number of separate agencies, each with established expertise and a track record of achievement in their field, but it will be important to ensure that the programmes mesh properly together, leaving neither wasteful overlaps nor damaging gaps. For this reason, I have decided to appoint a distinguished national figure, who will be an adviser in my Department, to act as co-ordinator and facilitator at the national level. He will also assist my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales. I am pleased to tell the House that Lord Walker has agreed to accept this important responsibility. [Interruption.]
Madam Speaker: Order. The House must come to order.
Mr. Heseltine: The decisions which I have announced today have been difficult. I understand—[Interruption.]
Madam Speaker: Order. Our fellow citizens outside the House are waiting to hear the statement. Let us hear the statement and let them hear it. They can then also hear what other hon. Members have to say subsequently.
Mr. Heseltine: The decisions which I have announced today have been difficult. I understand the anguish that will be caused for the coalfields concerned, but there is no economic alternative. The Government will now proceed to work for the long-term future of all those concerned.
I have arranged for copies of this statement to be available in the Vote Office.
Mr. Robin Cook: On Sunday the Secretary of State told the nation that there was no alternative to his closure programme. May I therefore congratulate him on the fact that by Monday he had discovered that there might at least be an alternative closure programme.
May I first ask the Secretary of State whether he thinks that the past seven days have enhanced or reduced the Government's credibility. If, as he claims, he agonised over this decision for months, how did he come up with a decision that could not survive six days of public debate? Can he explain how it was that he approved a timetable of closure which could not survive three days of challenge in the courts?
If the Secretary of State hopes that the House will welcome the announcement that British Coal will now observe the statutory notice period, can he explain why he ever approved a programme that involved breaking the
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law? May I warn the Secretary of State that the closure by delayed action that he has announced today does not measure up to what the nation demands.
The people of Britain who protested over the weekend, from Chesterfield to Cheltenham, were not protesting about the timetable of the closure. Does not the Secretary of State realise that they were protesting about the closures? They wanted the closures stopped, not phased in. Nor did they want money spent on training miners for the dole. They wanted action to save those miners' jobs. They will not be reassured that they will get that action by the length of the Secretary of State's statement which dealt with the action that he will take after those miners have lost their jobs. Nor will they be reassured by a thin package which offers the entire mining coalfields only half the money that his Department has sunk into Canary Wharf.
Does the Secretary of State understand that his statement will be judged by whether it is a genuine attempt to save miners' jobs or a manoeuvre to save Ministers' jobs? In order that they may judge which it is, will the Secretary of State tell us whether his statement means that a single pit on last week's list has a secure future or whether a single miner has a secure job? By the end of the phasing in his statement, how many more jobs will have gone? How many more jobs will have gone in the power stations that burn coal? How many more jobs will have gone in the engineering factories which supply the cutting gear, the winding gear and the pit props? How many more jobs will have gone in the coal communities when miners do not bring home wages which their families can spend in the shops? How will it help Britain to get out of recession to push all those people into unemployment? How does that help to restore the confidence in the economy which Ministers keep telling us is the key to recovery?
The Secretary of State claimed again today that there is a clear economic case for closing the mines. On Sunday he rested that economic case on the argument that it would produce cheaper electricity. Can he name a single independent expert who believes him? Does he know that the chief executive of PowerGen, which makes the electricity, has said that the closures will increase generating costs? Does he know that every one of the new gas-fired power stations is expected to produce more expensive electricity than any of the coal-fired power stations that he will shut?
What was most remarkable about the right hon. Gentleman's statement was that it did not contain a single proposal for him to intervene to stop any of the closures. The only action that he proposed in his statement was to set out the case for closure. Does the Secretary of State remember that only a fortnight ago he promised that he would intervene before breakfast, before lunch and before dinner in the same way as the German Government intervene to help German companies? Well, this is his chance. Last week the German Government confirmed a package of DM3 billion to keep open pits that produce coal at double the price of that produced by the pits that he proposes to shut.
Now that the Secretary of State has given himself more time to intervene, will he intervene to save British jobs in the way that the German Government save German jobs? Will he intervene to secure Britain's coal reserves in the way that the German Government secure German coal reserves? Will he intervene to provide an energy strategy

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which makes sense for Britain in the way that the German Government provide an energy strategy which puts Germany first?
There could be one, and only one, real benefit from the delays in the closures that the Secretary of State has announced: the delays give time for an independent review of the case for keeping the pits open—an independent review by a figure other than a former Tory Cabinet Minister. Will the Secretary of State agree to such a review? Will he let an independent review obtain the answers to our questions before any of the mines are shut, before any of the coal seams are flooded, before any of the coal reserves are lost and before he does any more damage to the economy by putting any more people on the dole?
If the Secretary of State will not agree to halt all the closures and set up an independent review, I serve notice that we shall table a motion that will give the House the opportunity to set up such a review and give a real future to Britain's coalfields.
Mr. Heseltine: The hon. Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook) suggests that Lord Walker is in some way involved in the review that I announced. That is absolutely not the case. Lord Walker will devote his energies to securing the co-ordination of the measures that we have announced today. I say to the House, and to the Labour party, that in the past decade we have seen the economy of south Wales transformed under a Tory Government. We have seen it above all else because Lord Walker, when he was a member of this Government, brought his energies to bear on that transformation.
I tell the Labour party that I will take no lectures about the problems of closing down industries and running away from the consequences. I had to go to Corby in 1979 when the Labour party closed the steelworks with no attempt whatever to put jobs in their place. After a decade of diversification Corby has become a flourishing town. We have to find ways to bring that diversification into the coalfields. That is the only way to find lasting opportunities for the people who live there.
I note that the hon. Member for Livingston did not for one moment address himself to the fundamental dilemma that I face—the fact that British Coal has a contract until next April for 65 million tonnes of coal for the electricity generating industry. Next April, at best, British Coal can look forward to a contract for 40 million tonnes, and the reason for that is that those in charge of producing electricity can get their fuel more cheaply from alternative supplies. That is the dilemma. As they are charged with a responsibility to produce electricity cheaply, and as there is a regulator to ensure that they do so, it is unanswerable that the regulator will not allow them to buy generating fuel from other sources unless he is satisfied that they are the cheapest available sources.
The regulator is in place to deal with that, but it is important that the House should have the opportunity to examine the case that British Coal has had to face, pit by pit, which backs up its closure programme and that is what I have announced today. That is why, during the moratorium that I have announced, we shall produce a detailed calculation for the benefit of the House, and why there will be no further movement, other than in the pits that I have announced today, until after the House has had
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a chance to debate the conclusions. That will give the House an important opportunity to understand the dilemma facing the electricity generating industry.
When the hon. Member for Livingston asks about the jobs that will be lost, I notice that he does not ask about the jobs that will be lost to the rest of British industry if we do not provide it with the cheapest electricity that we can generate. It is not simply a question of looking after the coal industry—we shall do the best that we can to find a viable coal industry. We have to help British industry to be competitive in world markets. That is my overall responsibility. I cannot do that by imposing on industry electricity costs higher than the market can offer.
Several Hon. Members rose——
Madam Speaker: Order. I must caution the House that this is a time for questions. It is not a time for hon. and right hon. Members, Front Benchers or Back Benchers, to make long statements. We have had the statement. I am looking for pertinent questions and direct answers.
Sir Michael Grylls: Does my right hon. Friend realise that his very reasonable statement will give great encouragement to the House and to the country at large, especially his remark that there will be enterprise zones to encourage inward investment and the setting up of new small businesses by those miners who lose their jobs, as that has been so successful and will be successful again——
Madam Speaker: Order. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will set us off in the right way by asking a direct question.
Sir Michael Grylls: I have concluded, Madam Speaker.
Mr. Heseltine: I am grateful to my hon. Friend and I note his support for enterprise zones. Like most hon. Members, I have seen the value that they have brought to Shotton, Workington and Corby. I hope that all those Opposition Members who are jeering will not come to my office to ask for enterprise zones in the way that they always do.
Mr. Neil Kinnock: Does the President of the Board of Trade recall that in the 1960s the historic error was made of depending on the assumption of cheap oil permanently? The Government's attitude is now based on the historic error of depending on cheap gas and cheap imported coal, which is an invitation to companies and countries that owe nothing to this country to hold our country to energy ransom in the future.
Does not the Secretary of State acknowledge that what is now happening with the crisis that he is inflicting on the coal mining areas is not to do with what he called "a remorseless change in circumstances", but is a direct consequence of the style and system of privatisation which the Government brought to this country? Does he accept that what he has said today does not begin to deal with the realities of mass unemployment that he will bring to coal mining areas? Most of all, nor does it begin to deal with coal as a precious national asset, which is how any patriotic Government must treat it.
Mr. Heseltine: The right hon. Gentleman repeats by implication the very point that his hon. Friend the Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook) made about the cost of gas-fired generation and the fact that it is more

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expensive. His hon. Friend quoted the managing director of PowerGen. Why is it that PowerGen is the only company now operating a gas-fired station?
Mr. Jim Lester: No words that I can express in this House could give vent to the shock waves that have gone through the community of Nottinghamshire following the announcement last week. That means that the review that my right hon. Friend has announced is critical. What status does that review have? It must be a profound and important review covering all aspects of the question because we need to see that the strategy for the future will ensure that coal-fired power stations and a deep-mine industry remain for 10, 15 or 20 years. From what the right hon. Member for Isiwyn (Mr. Kinnock) said, we know that we may need it then more than we do now.
Mr. Heseltine: My hon. Friend makes an absolutely critical point. I assure him that the Government intend that the statement that we make and the information that we provide will be profound and comprehensive. We intend to do everything possible to enable deep-mined British coal to be world competitive. That is the objective because it is the only way in which we can provide for the rest of industry and our consumers the basic competitive fuel that helps them to win in the export markets.
Nobody is more aware than I am of the impact that my announcement and that of British Coal last week have had throughout the country. I have had to share the agony of that decision for many months, and because that information has been available to me, I have spent so much time examining the alternatives. But, in the end, I come back to this stark dilemma: there will be a reduction of 25 million tonnes in the likely market for British coal next April; and, on top of that, the reduction in the amount that British Coal will get for its coal is likely to be significant. It will therefore have a lower revenue from a lower tonnage. That is the dilemma, and unless we can find a way to deal with it we are faced with the unpalatable conclusions that I put to the House.
Mr. Malcolm Bruce: Does the President of the Board of Trade accept that a phased closure of pits will do nothing to stem the anger of people who are outraged at a Government who are tearing the industrial heart out of our economy? Does not the Government accept that that is the inevitable consequence of the privatisation of electricity and the creation of rigged markets for gas and nuclear power? What we need is not a phased closure but a full review of energy policy. In those circumstances, will Professor Littlechild's report be made in time to be taken into account before the pits close? Does not the right hon. Gentleman accept that the only phase out that the country needs is the phase out of him and of the Government?
Mr. Heseltine: Professor Littlechild is, of course, fully aware that he has clear statutory responsibilities. He is now engaged on two reviews, and it is well within his ability to make available to us whatever information he thinks appropriate. The House can be sure that I shall take into account Professor Littlechild's views before I return to the House.
When the hon. Member for Gordon (Mr. Bruce) says that we cannot phase the closure of pits or the rundown of
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the industry, he seems to forget that we have phased the rundown of manpower in the pits from 700,000 after the war to about 50,000 today.
Mr. Richard Alexander: Everyone is anxious for the outcome of the review. Will my right hon. Friend give some idea of its timescale and when we may know some of the decisions? When the review takes place, will it be borne in mind that if one strips away the subsidies, levies and sheer lack of competitiveness of some of the other fuels, British coal is the cheapest of all? Will British Coal and the people in the industry have the opportunity to make precisely that point?
Mr. Heseltine: The views of British Coal will be clearly set out in the report that I make to the House; that is absolutely fundamental. I intend to return to the House early in the new year.
As to the specific point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Newark (Mr. Alexander) about alternative supplies of fuel, it is perfectly true that the fossil fuel levy creates a subsidy for the nuclear industry. However, the subsidy is to deal with the decommissioning of old and unsafe plants. I defy the Labour party to suggest that I should not carry out my statutory duties to make those plants safe.
Ms. Joan Walley: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: I take points of order at the end of statements.
Sir Harold Walker: Why is the right hon. Gentleman discriminating against specific pits such as Markham Main, in my constituency? Why is he applying the axe to them immediately? Last week people were handed redundancy notices with only a few days' notice. Why was that pit not included with the others? It has rich seams and its productivity has increased enormously. The death of that pit will be the death knell for the whole village.
Mr. Heseltine: I am sure that the right hon. Member knows that 250 of the Markham Main employees have already applied for the new redundancy terms that I announced last week. I repeat that the 10 pits that I have listed this afternoon are pits that the chairman of British Coal has assured me are not making a profit today; and there is no foreseeable way in which they will do so.
Mr. Winston Churchill: I welcome my right hon. Friend's statement as far as it goes, but I fear that it does not go far enough. The miners of this country are not asking for charity; they are asking for a level playing field for their product. Unless my right hon. Friend can assure the House that what he is offering is a thoroughgoing review of Britain's long-term strategic energy requirements that will address the imbalances created by the uneven playing field and, pending that, there will be a moratorium on at least 90 per cent. of the closures, I shall certainly find it difficult to support his position in the Division Lobbies.
Mr. Heseltine: My hon. Friend, who I know has taken a great interest in these matters, has heard me list 10 pits which are not making a profit and which British Coal says have no prospect of making a profit. Those are the ones that we have authorised British Coal to proceed with.

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In respect of the other pits, we have announced a moratorium. I hope that my hon. Friend will agree that we have gone as far as we reasonably should with all our responsibilities in that context. There can be no case for my telling British Coal to keep uneconomic pits going. We are talking about uneconomic pits at today's price of about £1.85 per gigajoule; that price will drop, we read in the newspapers, to something in the order of £1.50 per gigajoule. That clearly shows that, if these pits are not profitable at today's higher prices, there is no way they will be profitable at tomorrow's lower prices.
We shall have plenty of chances to set this out in the debate on Wednesday and in my subsequent comments before the House is invited to vote early next year. It is certainly important to deal with my hon. Friend's concerns with the wider issues, and I will do so.
Mr. Dennis Skinner: Is the President of the Board of Trade aware that he cuts a pathetic figure here today—both he and Major Wimp beside him? Is it not high time, instead of handing out quango jobs to Lord Walker, who lined his pockets with Maxwell money, that the Government saved the jobs of the 31,000 miners for whom the right hon. Gentleman has announced this moratorium? It is not a stay of execution they want; they want their jobs to remain.
There has been a 155 per cent. increase in productivity. There has been no increase in the price of industrial coal for six years. We can compete with the rest of Europe. Why should German coal be imported to Britain at £110 a tonne when we can produce it, after devaluation, at £37 a tonne? In the name of God, go, and take the Prime Minister and the rest of the rag, tag and bobtails with you!
Mr. Heseltine: The hon. Gentleman will know that the Bolsover pit is one of those that we have covered by the moratorium. I should have thought that he would concentrate his endeavours on pleading a rational case for his constituency and his pit rather than on debasing the currency of the House of Commons, as is his habit. He would help the House more if he recognised that no German coal is imported to this country for the purposes of electricity generation. The hon. Gentleman would also help the debate if he realised that imported coal comes not from Germany but principally from America, Australia and Colombia, mainly because it is opencast coal which is a great deal cheaper to mine from the surface than to extract from Britain's deep coal mines.
Mr. Michael Alison: Can my right hon. Friend confirm as a result of his original statement that the seven mines in the Selby group in my constituency will continue to employ 4,000 deep pit miners; that they will be producing 12 million tonnes of coal a year for power generation; that that represents more than a quarter of likely coal sales, from just seven pits; and that this in turn represents the vast investment which my right hon. Friend and his predecessors have made in productive, constructive coal mining, far outstripping investment in closures? Will he also confirm that, if any additional mines are saved as a result of his statement today, that will only enhance the fact that overwhelmingly the largest proportion of fuel input to power generation will come from British Coal and from pits in my constituency?
Mr. Heseltine: My right hon. Friend is right. After the contraction of the industry that we are contemplating, British Coal will still be the largest contributor to electricity generation in this country. I confirm that the Selby group is a core part of the future of the British coal industry. We have invested £1.3 billion in that group of pits, which has played its part in securing the improved productivity upon which the long-term viability and, therefore, the future of the industry depend.
Mr. Joseph Ashton: Is the Minister aware that the Prime Minister said at the Tory party conference at Blackpool that he would put Britain and the British people first in all his policies? Is Nottinghamshire still part of Britain and, if so, why is Germany, which has 4 per cent. unemployment, subsidising its coal mines by £1 billion per year while Britain, with 10 or 11 per cent. unemployment, is eliminating almost 31,000 jobs? Is he also aware that, of the 5,000 people in Nottinghamshire who have recently been through training schemes, only 257–5 per cent.—have found jobs? What does he think that will do to the county?
Mr. Heseltine: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman knows that 86 per cent. of the miners who go through British Coal Enterprise advisory services find jobs. I am sure that he also realises that the Germans are contracting their industry because of the pressures of reduced competitiveness of the fuel.
The hon. Gentleman spoke about subsidies for the German industry. I am sure that he will bear in mind that the Government have put £18 billion into British Coal during this decade. Less than one tenth of that amount was put in in total by Labour Governments in earlier years.
Mrs. Edwina Currie: Is my right hon. Friend aware that most of the pits in my constituency were closed when the local Member of Parliament, George Brown, was a member of the Labour Government and that no help whatever was available at that time?
I welcome my right hon. Friend's statement. Given enough time, mining communities do adjust and can make a successful future. There is life after coal, and if my right hon. Friend comes to south Derbyshire we shall be delighted to show him a successful community for which that is true.
Mr. Heseltine: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. As I know, in many parts of the country the coal industry contracted significantly under Labour Governments and major diversification has taken place. Nowhere is that more the case than in south Wales, as Labour Members understand all too clearly. When Labour was in power, it ran down the coal industry without let or hindrance, and it ill becomes the Opposition now to pretend that they had a magic solution when patently they had not.
Mr. Eric Clarke: I am an ex-miner with 26 years' underground experience. This is a poor and bitter day for the people of Britain because the Minister's statement goes no way towards sustaining confidence in Britain's coalfields. The closure programme includes the sale of Frances colliery in Fife. I met the Minister for Energy and asked him not to give away or sell prematurely the assets of British Coal because the future of the Scottish coalfield rests on the development of a colliery that is

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presently mothballed and up for sale. If it is prematurely sold and not girdled about and proper investment is not made in it, it will disappear for ever.
In terms of the future, that colliery is important, and in saying that I am not taking away from the arguments of my hon. Friends. The Minister is slashing the pits, saying that they are uneconomic. It is the old, old story: anyone can make anything uneconomic if he wants to. I hope that the Minister will reverse the decision because many other assets are being stripped. I know that some of my ex-colleagues—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] All right, but this is important. The people who are running British Coal are feathering their nests for whatever the future brings, whether it is privatisation or not. All that I am saying is that——
Madam Speaker: Order. I pleaded with the House for questions. I know that the hon. Member will accept that.
Mr. Clarke: I hope that there is not a scorched earth policy. [Interruption.] That is hard to say when one has had a drink, but it is no laughing matter for the Scottish coal mining community if that is the policy of British Coal and the Government.
Mr. Heseltine: I am aware of the constructive approach that the hon. Gentleman has taken and the dedication that he has shown in the interests of the industry. He obviously has an experience of the industry that I could not begin to equal. Because I know that the hon. Gentleman is wholly sincere in his approach, I want to respond in kind. I am prepared to look at the points he has made, but I want to share with hon. Members the danger that I face. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman will see the difficulty I have in trying to respond seriously to his point.
Mr. Bob Cryer: Stop being so unctuous and tell the truth.
Mr. Heseltine: Well, stop being so plain bloody stupid. [Interruption.]
Madam Speaker: Order. Sometimes my patience is tried so far that I almost use that sort of language.
Mr. Heseltine: I was speaking about the danger that is presented. There is bound to be a significant number of miners who face the loss of their jobs and see the risk to the community, arid, understandably, they will instinctively wish to use their redundancy money to buy the pit. I want to be cautious before I encourage mining communities to invest in pits that, in our best judgment and in the best judgment of British Coal, have no viable future.
I do not say that because I want to choke off all interest or potential—that is the last thing I want to do. If miners come armed with expert advice and financial resources, and if, as I hope, they propose to put in only a limited amount of their redundancy money, I can give the House this assurance: I will personally ensure that their case is seriously considered.
Let me go further, because in some ways this is at the heart of one of the dilemmas that we face. The market that British Coal sees for its product next year will decline from 65 million tonnes to 40 million tonnes. If one or other of the pits scheduled for closure is moved into the private sector by a group of miners and supporters, that will potentially take part of that 40 million tonne market, with the consequent danger that other British Coal pits may be at risk. Therefore, that must be taken into account as well.
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I hope that the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that I am responding as genuinely as I can to what I know to be his serious interest.
Mrs. Elizabeth Peacock: I welcome my right hon. Friend's statement as it suggests that he, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and other Cabinet colleagues have been listening carefully to what Conservative Back-Bench Members have been saying and to the views expressed by many people throughout the country since last Tuesday. Perhaps we have someone who is listening up there. I do not think, however, that the response goes far enough. I ask my right hon. Friend to put all mines into the review and to question British Coal, because at this stage we do not necessarily have to accept what it says. I do not think that the slight delay that would occur over the next few months would be detrimental eventually in terms of the cost of the outcome.
Will my right hon. Friend please put these considerations into the review? Let us have a complete review of the coal industry and of our long-term energy requirements.
Mr. Heseltine: I know exactly how much my hon. Friend is concerned about these matters as I have had the chance to talk to her personally about them. I cannot, however, go as far as she asks. These are pits that are not economic even at the high level of payment that British Coal now receives for its product, and British Coal will be receiving significantly less next year in what is already likely to be a much reduced market. It would be imposing costs in public expenditure terms for which there is no justification.
The House will understand—I do not wish to widen the discussion—that all delay has a cost consequence. If we produce 25 million tonnes of coal next year for which there is no market, that will cost an additional £1 billion or more in a year. That will have to be financed in public expenditure. It will be matched against a range of other investment or revenue consequences—hospitals, schools and roads, or whatever it may be. That is the choice that the House is asking us to make. I cannot responsibly make it in respect of the 10 pits today.
Mr. Tony Benn: Is the Secretary of State aware that his economic arguments are wholly unconvincing? If they were applied to agriculture, half the farms in Britain would be threatened with closure. They were not applied when the gamblers played the currency markets three or four weeks ago. It is a political act, long prepared by the Government, to rig the market, to close the pits and to punish the National Union of Mineworkers.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware also that it was the brutality towards those who were told that they would lose their jobs in 48 hours that produced the public response? Men who have devoted their lives to the industry wake up one day and find that the Secretary of State has ended their industrial life. It is the brutality of it that has stirred the public. We want to see all the closures reversed and a return to a planned energy policy to ensure that we use the nation's reserves wisely.
Mr. Heseltine: The right hon. Gentleman says all these things now, but as a member of a Labour Government it seemed not to occur to him that it was necessary to protect all these jobs. What exactly was he doing when he helped

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to provide finance for the interconnector with France so that French electricity could cross the channel to compete with ours?
Sir Rhodes Boyson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in my constituency, where there are no mines and no farms either, there is great concern about the way that the miners were treated last week? Will he accept from me, along with my hon. Friend the Member for Batley and Spen (Mrs. Peacock), that all the pits should be subject to the moratorium? Should not there be an independent energy survey that embraces what is happening in the nuclear industry and the question of how long gas supplies will last? Coal is a strategic industrial element that is vital to this country's future.
Mr. Heseltine: My right hon. Friend repeats the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Batley and Spen (Mrs. Peacock). I cannot give an assurance that I will change the decision that I announced today in respect of those 10 mines. My right hon. Friend must realise the implications of that process. If he wants us to finance the continuation of those pits, other sacrifices will have to be made in public expenditure terms. My right hon. Friend the Member for Brent, North (Sir R. Boyson) is an enthusiast for many aspects of public expenditure programmes. One cannot have them all, and that suggestion does not seem justified. There is no long-term viability for those pits, even at the existing level of revenue—which is higher than that which they will be able to achieve next April. There comes a point in Government when one must make difficult decisions.
Mr. Richard Caborn: Will the President of the Board of Trade answer a question that many in this country want to ask him: where is the long-term strategy for an energy policy? The answers given this afternoon do not meet the serious charge that has been laid against the Government. If there is only to be justification for British Coal's decision, will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that his own Department stops licensing the 40 or more gas-fired power stations that are likely to come on stream? Many mining communities will believe that, with his statement this afternoon, we have moved from strangulation to suffocation.
Mr. Heseltine: The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point. I have to deal with legal constraints in respect of the planning applications that are before me, but I am not unsympathetic to that important question—which I must address during the moratorium and the further submission of views. I cannot, however, unbuild the gas-fired stations which already exist or which are being constructed, and which account for a significant amount of the competition.
The hon. Gentleman asks about our strategy for an energy policy. It is impossible to ignore the existence of United Kingdom-owned North sea gas. That is the source of the remarkable opportunity to obtain lower cost electricity. At present consumption levels, North sea gas supplies will last for another 50 years.
Mr. William Cash: Does my right hon. Friend accept that his announcement today will do nothing to assuage the fears of those at Trentham colliery, many of whom live in my constituency? If my right hon.
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Friend casts his mind back to the 1974 miners' strike, he will recall that those same miners who crossed the picket lines and defied Arthur Scargill are now being let down by his decision. Will my right hon. Friend please explain, in relation to our competitiveness within the so-called level playing field in Europe, why the decision was recently taken to allow a £3.3 billion agreement between the power generators and subsidised coal producers in Germany to get away scot free?
Mr. Heseltine: It is clear that the Germans are subsidising their industry, but they too are running down their coal industry. Our concern must be not the level of subsidies in Germany but whether we can provide for British industry and British consumers electricity cheaper by competition from gas-fired production or whatever alternative source we use.
The UDM's contribution was quite the most remarkable memory that I have of the industrial relations situation in the early 1980s. I happened to be in the Cabinet at that time, and I know exactly what UDM members did. That, among other things, made me determined to achieve the scale of redundancy compensation that I have provided and announced, which makes available up to £37,000 per miner—an average of £23,000 per miner—at a time when, owing to world recessionary pressures, people are losing their jobs in the manufacturing and service industries without receiving redundancy pay on anything like the scale of the compensation that I have announced.
My hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Cash) asked me whether I could exempt Trentham. I must tell him—and it gives me no pleasure to do so—that Trentham is one of the biggest loss makers with which British Coal is faced.
Mr. John Cummings: Who does the right hon. Gentleman think he is kidding with such a disgraceful statement? Certainly not the miners at Vane Tempest colliery, who have been denied the investment that could have turned the colliery around; certainly not the people of Seaham, a town that is still reeling from the closure last year of Dawdon and Murton collieries, with the loss of some 3,000 jobs. The people of Seaham are experiencing the highest number of job losses in the country, and the lowest number of job vacancies in the United Kingdom.
My people want to hear the President of the Board of Trade talk of clearing the lines for our entry into the European market—a market that is bringing in 150 million tonnes of coal from outside the Community. We want to hear the right hon. Gentleman speak of the incestuous relationship between supply companies in the north-east and gas-fired power stations—an arrangement into which we have recently entered. We need answers to these questions, and we certainly need to appease the frustration and anger of the hundreds of miners who are being thrown out of work in Seaham.
Mr. Heseltine: I have tried to recognise the anguish that the hon. Gentleman described. As he knows, Easington is not one of the 10 collieries that I have listed today. He must also know, however, that over the past decade or so £18 billion of investment—I have already mentioned that figure—has gone into British Coal. It is entirely unacceptable for anyone to suggest that the Government have not done all that it reasonably could to make the industry competitive and to give it a chance.

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It is true that Europe imports substantial amounts of coal, but it is imported from the world competitive market, at much more competitive prices than British Coal can achieve.
Dr. Keith Hampson: Has my right hon. Friend stressed enough the significance of the 40 million-tonne electricity supply contracts? Is it not the case that, roughly speaking, for every million tonnes by which the supply falls below that figure, an additional 1,000 miners will be put on the dole? The level of public indignation will then rise out of control.
Is it not a disgrace that the contracts have dragged on for so long? While trying to keep demand at that level, will my right hon. Friend please review the policy for licensing gas stations—a policy that has already, up to April, passed licences for 14 such stations?
Mr. Heseltine: My hon. Friend has raised what is, for me, one of the most distressing aspects of the issue. Despite the endeavours of all the British Coal negotiating teams, we have not yet seen a contract between British Coal and the generators, or between the generators and the regional distribution companies.
When I addressed the annual conference of the UDM, I made it as clear as I could that I considered it important for both the generators and the regional electricity companies to realise that this was not just an economic matter. There are communities out there with legitimate anxieties, and there is an imperative need for those contracts to be concluded. My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-West (Dr. Hampson) is broadly right: if contracts for approximately 40 million tonnes are not entered into next year, every million tonnes below that figure will have an impact on employment in the coal mining industry.
Mrs. Margaret Ewing: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that, as yet, he has singularly failed to answer the many questions that he has been asked about the Government's future strategy on energy policy? Is he really suggesting, through this statement, that in a consultation period of three months an energy strategy can be brought forward that has not been brought forward over a three-term period by this Government?
Would it not be much better to place a complete moratorium on this programme and to reconvene the Select Committee on Energy, which had built up considerable expertise in this sphere? It would enable us to look at an energy policy that would be to the benefit of industry, consumers and employers alike and would ensure that at least we went forward into the 21st century knowing where we were going. In that context, we should seriously look at the subsidy that has been given to the nuclear industry, some of which, of course, was instituted by the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn).
Mr. Heseltine: I do not agree that we should question the principle of the subsidy that was given to the nuclear industry because, as I have already said, that is being used to decommission capital facilities; it is being used to decommission plant. Otherwise, I should be failing in my responsibilities. I will not do that.
The hon. Lady asks me about the strategy. We have a very clear energy strategy—to provide for British companies and British consumers a diversity of energy supply at a competitive range of costs. That is what we are
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determined to achieve. In doing that we have to be sure that there is a long-term prospect of continuation of those resources. We are satisfied about all those things within the strategy.
Mr. Patrick Cormack: In order to inspire proper confidence in the moratorium, will my right hon. Friend do two things? First, will he ensure that there is an independent assessment of the energy resources and requirements of this country? Secondly, will he summon the heads of the power industry and ask them whether they have really been putting Britain's long-term interests first?
Mr. Heseltine: They are all operating under statute to ensure that they clearly understand what their duties are. We laid down those duties. We laid down the regulatory regimes within which Offer must supervise their activities. It is quite clear that they have duties and that there is a regulator.
My hon. Friend raises the interesting question of an independent assessment. Of course, I shall give the clearest view I can as to what the arguments are, but what must have emerged today and on many other occasions is that this is not a case where we will persuade people that there is an independent calculation that leads remorselessly to one conclusion. One is dealing with great pressure groups, great vested interests, great alternative sources of energy, and everybody argues his case. However many times we argue it and whatever figures we provide, we will never get agreement between the conflicting interests involved. That is why in government we have to make decisions about priorities. I shall try to set out for colleagues why we have taken the decisions that we have, but I do not pretend that we shall satisfy all those who represent every pressure group because I know that we shall not.
Mr. Paddy Tipping: Will the President of the Board of Trade reassure the House and give some confidence to mining communities about the review that is to take place? It appears to have no independence at all. The President of the Board of Trade has told us several times this afternoon that the final outcome will be a contract between British Coal and the generators of 40 million tonnes. If that is the case, we shall be back to where we are today.
This review, this process, is a fraud. We want assurances that the nuclear levy is to be looked at. We also want assurances that the length of the contract between the generators and gas generation will be looked at. The coal industry wants a level playing field, a level market. The Government have provided no opportunity for that to happen. The inquiry gives no chance for an independent assessment.
Mr. Heseltine: My task in announcing the moratorium and promising to come back to the House is to provide for the House the evidence on which the 40 million tonnes calculation is based and, consequentially, the evidence to show why there is no greater market for the pits that face closure. That is the task that my review must undertake, and I have assured the House as clearly as I can that that evidence will be forthcoming. I shall not be able—I should not seek to interfere in the matter—to stop hon. Members from arguing that there is an alternative market for British Coal, but they must show where it is because British Coal

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cannot find it, and it is because no one else is prepared to show me where it has a competitive opportunity that I have had to make these unpalatable decisions.
Mr. Robert Adley: Is not it a fact that my right hon. Friend is left with responsibility for British Coal without having any influence whatsoever over the purchasing habits of its main customers? Is not this one of the weaknesses of the manner of electricity privatisation? Is he aware that some of us tried to impress that on Lord Parkinson but got nowhere? Will my right hon. Friend consider taking powers positively to influence the purchasing policies of the generators, if that is necessary, in order to sustain a medium-term policy rather than having the terrible situation that we have had to go through in the past few days?
Mr. Heseltine: In considering all the options, I considered that one because it was an obvious example of how one could have found alternative markets for British Coal. However, the first question that followed that consideration was, am I prepared to ask the House for powers to insist that electricity generation is more expensive than it would be otherwise? It is because I believe that my first responsibility is to ensure that British industry and consumers get the most competitive energy that I am not prepared to ask the House to reverse the decision that it took in the past half decade.
Mr. George Stevenson: Is the President of the Board of Trade aware that his statement is another example of the sickening betrayal that the public have recognised in the past week? Does he realise that the public require a complete stop on pit closures so that the complex issues to which he referred can be considered in depth? Is he aware that, seven months ago, the Trentham complex, which is in my constituency, was congratulated by British Coal on producing the quickest 2.3 million tonnes in Europe? In July, British Coal congratulated Trentham miners and said that they had a long-term future. What has changed since then?
Will the right hon. Gentleman impose a complete moratorium so that the matter can be considered in detail, the country can be advised and the House can look at the results?
Mr. Heseltine: The hon. Member is asking the Government to acknowledge something that his Governments were never prepared to acknowledge—the remorseless pressure of the market decline for coal. The Labour party in power was never able to find markets for coal and therefore ran down the coal industry year after year. I am faced with exactly the same process, and I am determined, in the course of the moratorium that I have announced today, to put before the House the nature of the costs and competition that British Coal faces. In that context, we shall see how unavoidable were the decisions that I had to take and authorise British Coal to take.
Sir Teddy Taylor: In view of the Government's fantastic achievements on the single European market, will the President of the Board of Trade explain to the public and to hon. Members why on earth it is not possible to sell coal to Europe? The Germans
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produce and sell coal at £86 a tonne and other European countries produce and sell it at £112, £79 and £76 a tonne, which is more than double the British price.
If the single European market means anything, why is there no demand for British coal in Europe? If the Secretary of State says that there is nothing funny in that, will he explain why PowerGen's chief executive has said that his coal-fired plant is able to generate far more cheaply than the independent gas-powered stations? He would love to put a contract to buy coal but, sadly, he cannot do so because he cannot get contracts with the regional electricity companies, which are the shareholders in the independent gas plants.
Mr. Heseltine: My hon. Friend has asked a number of questions. I find questions about PowerGen and National Power so contradictory because half the projects for gas-fired electricity are being developed, or have been developed, by National Power and PowerGen. It is inexplicable that the companies that are saying that they can produce coal-fired electricity more cheaply are among the biggest developers of gas-fired electricity. They cannot have it both ways. They say that because they are trying to sell their coal-fired electricity to the regional electricity companies, in competition with the gas-fired plants of the RECs. My hon. Friend is in the middle of the crossfire of a competitive situation between two groups of companies. He should take their sales pitch with the cynicism that he views other matters on which he is expert.
Let me come to my hon. Friend's views on Europe. I am the first to agree with him: there are things within the European Community that I would like to see made more competitive. One example of an area in which the Government are pressing extremely hard, which has significant implications for British coal, is in gaining access for British electricity generators to the European Community's grids.
Sir Teddy Taylor: What is stopping you?
Mr. Heseltine: We are negotiating; it is on the agenda of the British presidency. We are pressing our European partners to open up that opportunity. That is a much more constructive and likely way to make progress than by suggesting that we can produce deep-mined British coal and transport it across the channel and Europe to compete with the world price coal that the Europeans can purchase. We cannot compete on that basis. We might be able to do so if we were to get access to the European electricity grid.
Mr. Alan Meale: Will the President of the Board of Trade explain something simple to the House? He said that he cannot intervene, despite what he said a few weeks ago at his own party conference. If the Government own 40 per cent. of the shares of the electricity companies and 100 per cent. of the coal industry, why on earth cannot they intervene? Nobody can understand the illogicality of that.
Mr. Heseltine: Because the electric industry operates within regimes that were passed and approved by the House, it is subject to regulation. The hon. Member reveals the stark distinction between what he and I mean by intervention. He means intervention in order to stuff costs down British industry which it can avoid in alternative ways.
Mrs. Angela Browning: Will my right hon. Friend pay careful attention to the fifth report of the Select Committee on Energy, and look at the medium-term projections for energy costs? I sympathise with his view that there are many conflicting statistics and figures, but every business in this country has to project supply and demand and estimate costs in the medium term, so that it should not be beyond the wit of the House to take an objective look at that, which will be vital in the forthcoming five to 10-year period for businesses, domestic consumers and, not least, our balance of payments.
Mr. Heseltine: I am most grateful to my hon. Friend. I assure her that I will deal with that matter in my report to the House.
Mrs. Llin Golding: Will the President of the Board of Trade explain to the House how a pit such as Silverdale in my constituency, which was recently described as the jewel in the crown of British Coal, can be put on the list for closure? What criterion is British Coal using for the list? Surely, if a pit such as Silverdale is due for closure, there is no hope for any of the others.
Mr. Heseltine: I understand how the hon. Lady feels. I have tried this afternoon to answer that question on several occasions. The explanation is very simple and stark. British Coal does not see a demand for its product, and British Coal does not see the price levels that it is currently getting beyond April of next year. There is a 25 million tonnes projected reduction in demand for its product. It has had, therefore, to reach management decisions as to which pits it should recommend for closure and which ones it should continue to exploit. It is that uncomfortable decision to which we will come back when I make my report to the House.
Mr. Robert Hicks: In view of the public expenditure implications of this unfortunate sequence of events, will my right hon. Friend confirm that all the measures that he has announced hitherto will be funded out of new money that he has obtained from the Chancellor and not out of existing budgets and thus give the House, and in particular hon. Members who represent other parts of the United Kingdom that have genuine economic and social problems, an assurance that our regions will not be penalised as a consequence of the sequence of events?
Mr. Heseltine: I can help my hon. Friend. I made it clear in my statement where the money was coming from, whether it was within existing public expenditure programmes or whether it was new money. I can assure him that, in terms of the two big announcements that I made today, they are new money. Of course, my hon. Friend is absolutely right. He makes the point that the coalfields have real hardship and problems, but so have other parts of the country. My right hon. and hon. Friends and I will certainly not ignore that.
Mr. Jimmy Hood: The President of the Board of Trade's announcement will not save one of the 31,000 job losses that were announced last week. There will not be a review. There will be co-ordination by Lord Walker, whose history in running down the mining
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industry during his tenure in the Department of Energy is well known, and there will be no confidence in the mining communities about his appointment.
May we have a little bit of Thatcherism? May we argue on a level playing field so that coal can stand its ground against nuclear and gas energy? As was disclosed by the hon. Member for Leeds, North-West (Dr. Hampson), who was one of the right hon. Gentleman's campaign managers against Lady Thatcher, if the power generating boards do not agree to the 40 million tonnes, with every 1 million less the 19,000 jobs that are left in the industry will be threatened. We are not at the end of a closure programme with the loss of 31,000 jobs; we are at the beginning.
Mr. Heseltine: The hon. Gentleman is fully aware that we are not in any way at the beginning. The beginning started between the first and second world wars. It has continued remorselessly ever since, and it has been continued under all parties regardless of their political persuasion. Let me repeat, because the hon. Gentleman might not have heard what I said, that Lord Walker is nothing to do with the review. Lord Walker will co-ordinate the measures that are to help people living in coalfield areas.
Mr. Phil Gallie: I welcome my right hon. Friend's statement, and particularly the assistance that he offers to coal industry suppliers to pursue diversification and new markets. What steps will he take to ensure that suppliers play on even playing fields? What steps will be taken to ensure that British Coal rescinds the stop that it put on maintenance contracts last weekend?
Mr. Heseltine: My hon. Friend touches on a very important aspect of this matter, and that is coal industry suppliers. They, of course, have been aware of the likely contraction of the number of mines and, in certain cases, have already made their own plans to diversify their activities, particularly overseas. We have leading technology, particularly long-wall technology, in our suppliers, and we will do all that we can to give them every proper help. Obviously each company is different and each market is different, but I assure my hon. Friend that we will have urgent and intensive dialogue with them to see what we can do.
Mr. John Evans: Is the Secretary of State aware that his announcement today that Parkside colliery, in my constituency, the last colliery in Lancashire, should close without further review is incredible? Is he aware also that Parkside has more than 40 million tonnes of coal reserves, that the vast majority of its coal goes direct to Fiddler's Ferry power station, only eight miles away, by direct train, and that British Coal recently installed a brand new machine on a new face at a cost of £6 million? Is the Secretary of State aware that on Friday not one single job for manual labourers was available at St. Helens jobcentre and that there is no chance whatsoever of any of the 800 miners who will lose their jobs in Parkside getting a job anywhere on Merseyside?
Mr. Heseltine: I know and the hon. Gentleman knows of the remarkable changes that have been taking place over the past decade in St. Helens. I salute the local community, the local authorities and Pilkingtons, who have played such a remarkable role in bringing about that transformation. The figures that British Coal has shown

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me for that particular colliery indicate that it is not able to make a profit even in today's circumstances. That is the real world that I have to confront.
I understand what the hon. Gentleman says about the investment that has taken place. There has been massive investment—that is very much the point that I am making—but it has not enabled the collieries that I am dealing with today to make a surplus. In those circumstances, if they cannot do it today at today's prices, they certainly cannot do it at tomorrow's likely prices.
Mr. Patrick Nicholls: My right hon. Friend was entirely right to reject British Coal's judgment that a Conservative Government could ever have connived in behaviour which threw men out of work at only 48 hours' notice. In the context of the review that my right hon. Friend has announced today, will it be possible to consider that, although gas may be cheaper now, by any judgment, gas stocks clearly will be less than coal stocks? Is not the relative position of the availability of sources something which the review might take into account?
Mr. Heseltine: My hon. Friend makes an important point about resources and reserves, but the history of the North sea has been a continuing one of extending the calculations for the amount of reserves that are available. The present calculations indicate that on the present levels of consumption we have about 50 years' worth of reserves, and that is before taking into account any further reserves which may be discovered. On any foreseeable calculation of the likely availability of fuel, there is a continuing availability of North sea gas as far into the future as any practical judgments can predict.
Mr. Derek Enright: The President of the Board of Trade will be aware that the destruction of Grimethorpe will put out of work virtually the entire male population of Havercroft, Hiendley and Ryhill, but he is clearly not aware that Grimethorpe made a profit over the past three years and that it is not dependent upon electricity. It depends upon selling to local industry, in particular to Coalite. Coalite had absolutely no notice of the closure of Grimethorpe and it has been left in considerable difficulties as a result, and that is clearly very wrong.
Will the right hon. Gentleman clear up another matter? People keep talking about a review. I should have been very happy if a review had been announced, but, as I understand the right hon. Gentleman's statement, no review was announced.
Mr. Heseltine: I looked particularly at the problems of Grimethorpe colliery. However, as the hon. Gentleman will know better than I, it shares facilities with Houghton Main, which loses money. If we aggregate the two—[Interruption.]—if we close Houghton Main, then Grimethorpe is a loss-making colliery. If we keep them both open, they do not make a profit. We are faced with the fact that, on any calculation of whether that pair of collieries is ever likely to compete in tomorrow's market at tomorrow's prices, the answer must be that British Coal has made recommendations to me which I have accepted.
The hon. Gentleman asked a question which I have been asked on many occasions. I have explained that there will be a moratorium. I have
announced 10 pits today
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which I am persuaded by British Coal do not and cannot make a profit in today's world, let alone tomorrow's. I have announced a moratorium for the other pits and said that I will come back to the House with a full explanation of the costs and calculations which the House will have the chance to debate before we take any further decisions.
Mr. Andrew Mitchell: Will my right hon. Friend accept that there is an understanding in Nottinghamshire of the very real pressures that the coal industry faces? However, there is no understanding of the way in which the announcement was made last week or of the peremptory way in which the UDM was treated in that announcement. Nevertheless, I greatly welcome my right Friend's statement today as a chance to think again and to ensure that we get it right this time.
Mr. Heseltine: I know how strongly people in Nottinghamshire felt and I have tried to indicate my own particular responsibilities in this matter. I do not in any way seek to absolve myself from those responsibilities. However, I must say that I have had discussions with the UDM leadership. Indeed, when the House has finished questioning me, I hope to see the UDM executive this afternoon to discuss these matters further. I attended the UDM conference and I have said that the Government will make available through British Coal financial help if the UDM wishes to proceed with, as I understand it, its present intention to become part-owners of the residual coal board.
Mr. Bill Etherington: I must tell the President of the Board of Trade how disappointed I was with his statement. Wearmouth colliery is in my constituency. It was to be mothballed, but I now understand that, due to the moratorium, it has a new lease of life. We will not be kidded about this. We have a stay of execution. The people in Sunderland believe that the Government need to be mothballed, not Wearmouth colliery.
I have a simple question for the President of the Board of Trade, but I am having great difficulty in coming to terms with it. Will the right hon. Gentleman explain how we can improve the trading conditions of this nation when he has already stated today that he is looking for cheap, secure energy supplies, but is using the two most expensive sources—nuclear and gas? We do not want a revised timetable; we want a new service.
Mr. Heseltine: I understand how strongly the hon. Gentleman feels, but it simply does not help to say that gas and nuclear are more expensive. If they were more expensive, there is no coherent answer to the question why anyone buys electricity from that source. I know that the hon. Gentleman will welcome the fact that we have made an additional £2 million available to the Tyne and Wear development corporation.
Mr. Hugh Dykes: As most of this nightmare flows back to the mistakes made in the original electricity privatisation proposals which made electricity more expensive rather than less expensive, does not the President of the Board of Trade agree that he must have a much more fundamental look at the matter? Merely to suggest that there will be a postponement of closures is not enough. I am sorry to say that if he does not undertake today to put the 10 pits back into the total of 31 for fundamental review and saving later on against a

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background of a published unemployment figure of 3.2 million and a true figure of probably 3.75 million, he will not carry the House on Wednesday night.
Mr. Heseltine: I must rest with the arguments which I have deployed and which I will continue to deploy. I cannot believe that my hon. Friend and my right hon. Friends want me to incur public expenditure keeping open pits which are uneconomic at prices today which are going to be slashed tomorrow and keeping open pits supplying a market which will decline by 25 million tonnes next April. I cannot believe that the House wants me to take part in all the discussions that Governments properly carry out about the priority of public expenditure—cutting resources here, cutting programmes there and making arbitrary decisions there—the consequence of which is that I would have money to keep open uneconomic pits against the advice of the people who have to manage them.
Mr. Kevin Hughes: The Bentley and Hatfield pits are in my constituency. Neither of them is uneconomic and both have made a profit this year. The people who work in the collieries cannot understand, and nor can anyone else, why the Government are shutting economic pits which are making a profit when PowerGen and National Power are supplying electricity to the regional electricity companies, when gas is 30 per cent. dearer, and when nuclear power is up to 350 times dearer. The only person in the country who will not accept the argument is the Secretary of State. No one can understand what the Secretary of State is playing at unless, as was said earlier, this is a vindictive attack in response to the 1974 dispute.
Mr. Heseltine: I think that I can answer the hon. Gentleman's question. The calculations of profit to which he referred are based on the present £1.88 per gigajoule which British Coal is receiving for its coal. The calculation that British Coal has to make is not in the context of what it receives today but what it knows it is at most likely to receive next April. That is the dilemma. It will receive next April only what someone is prepared to pay it. No one is prepared to continue to pay a price of the sort that leads to the notional profit to which the hon. Gentleman referred. That is the difficulty.
Mr. Michael Shersby: My right hon. Friend expressed concern in his statement that some miners would use redundancy money to invest in some of the pits that are proposed for closure. What inquiries have the Government received and what advice has my right hon. Friend received about the possibility of any of the pits being sold to the UDM or any other interests? Will he also tell us whether he has considered breaking the monopoly of British Coal?
Mr. Heseltine: There are inquiries. There are not very many, but there have been a few. I have to say that some of them tend to come from miners or their representatives who are concerned about the reduction in opportunities in their area. However, I would not wish to give any sign to my hon. Friend that there is a significant market for a significant number of those pits. I believe that there will be a market under the privatisation proposals for British Coal once we have been through this uncomfortable process. However, I do not believe that there is a significant market for the pits which are scheduled for closure.
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My hon. Friend asked whether I had considered the idea of breaking British Coal's monopoly. The one thing that we have learnt this afternoon is that British Coal does not have a monopoly. It is very much in the market and has to compete on very onerous terms.
Mr. Geoffrey Hoon: If the supposed justification for the closure of Silverhill colliery in my constituency is the operation of market forces, why has Britain imported coal that has gone straight on the stockpiles at pitheads and power stations? Was it to bolster a bad Government case? Are the stockpiles there to justify the action taken to close Silverhill immediately? Is it not time that there was a stockpile of redundant Ministers?
Mr. Heseltine: The hon. Gentleman will realise that the decisions on what coal to import, the volume in which it is imported and where it is stocked are matters for the generators, not matters for British Coal or matters for which I have any direct responsibility. If the generating companies or regional electricity companies imported coal, they would be responsible for their own decision. It is not a matter for me.
Mr. Michael Colvin: Will my right hon. Friend confirm, just for the record, that during their most recent 11 years in office Labour Governments closed twice as many pits as Conservative Governments have closed in the past 13 years? Furthermore, since 1985, more than 100 pits have been closed with the loss of more than 100,000 jobs. That is three times the number proposed at present. They were closed with the minimum of economic, social and political difficulty because the closures were phased over a period. Therefore, it was the rapidity of the present proposals and the way in which the announcement was handled which caused the reaction from Chesterfield to Cheltenham. It was not the long-term strategy of reducing our coal-mining capacity, which is accepted by most people, including the Select Committee on Energy, which studied the subject only last year.
Mr. Heseltine: I do not disagree with my hon. Friend's analysis. I do not wish to comment on the number of pits that were closed or the number of miners who left the industry under which Government. However, there has been a remorseless reduction in the industry post-war, regardless of which Government were in power. In reaching a judgment, the House will wish to bear in mind that the Government have invested more in the coal industry since 1979 than all previous post-war Governments put together.
Several hon. Members rose——
Madam Speaker: Order. So that the House may know my intention, I inform hon. Members that at 5.30 pm I intend to call the hon. Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook) who, I understand, wants to make a response. We shall have questions until 5.30 pm.
Mr. Jimmy Boyce: I wonder what the people of Britain will make of the statement of the President of the Board of Trade today. First, he takes sole responsibility. Perhaps that is because there is no longer any collective Cabinet responsibility. The right hon. Gentleman also tells us—[Interruption] I shall come to the question in two seconds, Madam Speaker. The President of the Board of Trade also tells us that he agonised for months over the decision to close the pits. Yet

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yesterday, in "On the Record", he told the interviewer, Mr. Dimbleby, that he did not have time to telephone the Secretary of State for Wales. That is what he said; it is on the record. Then he said that he was frightened of leaks. Was that because he thought that the Secretary of State would leak the decision?
Mr. Heseltine: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for taking so much trouble to listen to what I had to say in "On the Record", but it would help if he had understood what I said. I made it absolutely clear that my right hon. Friend should have been informed of the announcement that that pit would be closed one day earlier than he was, and I have accepted full responsibility for that. British Coal submitted that name to my Department very late, and we did not transmit it to my right hon. Friend as fast as we should have done. There was absolutely no other explanation for that except that it was an administrative oversight for which I have apologised to my right hon. Friend.
Mr. Eric Pickles: My right hon. Friend referred earlier to the success of British Coal Enterprise in finding jobs for redundant miners. Will he give the House an assurance that before any redundancies are announced the measures that he announced today will be in place? Does he agree that the communities affected by the pit closures have a right to success and a right to look for jobs after coal? Does he further agree that the most tragic thing that could come out of the moratorium would be to raise hopes and expectations in those areas that suddenly markets for coal will appear when currently no such markets exist?
Mr. Heseltine: My hon. Friend has put the heart of the case which persuaded me that it was right to move forward. On all the evidence put to me—I shall have to explain it in detail to the House—the market will decline by 25 million tonnes next April. Therefore, I did not think it fair to those communities or desirable in their long-term interests to suggest that the market would exist. That is why I took the decision that I did, on the advice of the coal board. However, in the light of events, I have made the statement that I have to the House today.
I hope that the message that my hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. Pickles) has sent out will be understood. The message is that we are giving time for a wider understanding and a slower pace in certain circumstances. But that does not create a market for coal. Therefore, I can give my hon. Friend the assurance that we intend to proceed, with Lord Walker's help, with the implementation of the measures which I and my right hon. Friends have announced today.
Mr. Mike O'Brien: Yesterday the President of the Board of Trade told the country that there was no alternative to the policy that he then had. Last night, together with the Prime Minister, he cobbled together an alternative policy. Can he tell the country how he can put forward a different policy before the House with any integrity? Will he explain how he can stand here with a new policy and still claim to have any integrity as a Minister?
Mr. Heseltine: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman has not fully understood, but I have explained, as clearly as
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possible, that there will be a lack of demand for 25 million tonnes of coal in the market place next April. I cannot create that market place. Therefore, it is important for me to explain to the House and to let the House debate and examine the implications pit by pit of the dilemma that British Coal faces. We can consult on these matters. That is what I have said today, but it does not change the basic dilemma that I have had to face ever since I took on this job.
Mr. Anthony Steen: Although I do not have any coal mines in my constituency, I have many concerned constituents who were very distressed. They have written many letters and they have telephoned me, as have the constituents of many other colleagues, about the way in which this matter has been handled. There is great anxiety that the matter should be clear in the future.
Could the President of the Board of Trade say something about the enterprise zones? He knows that I have been very interested in enterprise zones, and he and I have been involved in setting them up. They have not all been a success. Some of them need clarification. Does he agree that enterprise zones could be considered for the 10 mines that will be closed? Does he agree that the Chancellor of the Exchequer could consider increasing the tax benefits for setting up companies in enterprise zones so that companies do not simply move from outside the enterprise zones to inside them to avoid certain rates and taxes? Does he agree that there could be a real tax-free zone in enterprise zones where the coal mines were in the past?
Mr. Heseltine: I am aware of my hon. Friend's interest in not only enterprise zones but the whole issue of regeneration. While I can guess that the enterprise zone with which he deals is not as successful] as others, he will be aware that the broad picture has been of immense diversification and considerable success. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has no intention, as far as I am aware, to change the basis of the incentives which apply to enterprise zones. The concept of enterprise zones is a weapon that we are prepared to use in this case. We shall consider establishing such zones where we think it appropriate and where the area will benefit from it. We have not yet reached a decision on where enterprise zones will be established or the number.
Mr. Eric Illsley: So that no one is in any doubt, will the President of the Board of Trade confirm that all 31 collieries will still close, perhaps not next week, but by next April? Will he confirm that, notwithstanding anything he has said today, he intends to close 31 pits? Will he also bear in mind that two of the 10 collieries announced for immediate closure are in Barnsley? The devastating effect that those closures will have on that community is not worth thinking about when one bears in mind that we have lost thousands of jobs in the area since 1985.
Mr. Heseltine: I accept the hon. Gentleman's argument about the problems in Barnsley. That is one reason why in my initial statement I announced assisted area status. I believe that that will be a help, but I am fully aware there there will be difficulties, which I have always accepted.
As for the hon. Member's question about the 31 pits, he and the House know, as I have repeated it many times, that there is a gap of 25 million tonnes in the market for British

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coal. On that basis, one is led remorselessly to the uncomfortable conclusions that I first announced. Ten closures will proceed and there will be a moratorium, during which I shall produce detailed calculations for the House, and there will be a further debate. I shall not say that at the margin there will be no change in policy. How can I do so if I intend to make a statement to the House and invite it to debate the implications?
I cannot know whether other purchasers may emerge who may be interested in becoming involved in any of those pits. There will be an opportunity for all those things, but, in response to my hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. Pickles), I do not want to give the impression that the gap in the market projected by British Coal will simply be filled because there is a moratorium.
Mr. James Coachman: In welcoming my right hon. Friend's statement today and the moratorium that he has announced, which eases the brutality of last week's announcement by British Coal, can he assure the House that the 21 pits included in the moratorium will continue to work normally throughout that time, that the work force will work properly and for the normal number of hours, and that no steps will be taken to pre-empt decisions that might be taken after the moratorium? Furthermore, can he assure the House that there will be complete transparency in the economic case that he sets before the House for each of the 31 pits concerned?
Mr. Heseltine: I want to help my hon. Friend. It is my intention to be as frank as I can in the statement that I shall make to the House. I understand how much interest the matter has created, and it is incumbent on me to satisfy the proper concern of my hon. and right hon. Friends.
I think that I made it clear in my statement that, at the 21 pits covered by the moratorium, voluntary redundancies will be available and there will be no closure unless it is by agreement of the work force.
Mr. Mark Fisher: Does the President of the Board of Trade realise that his statement promising the coal industry not a new policy but a slow death by delay will be viewed with dismay and disgust by people throughout the country and especially in Stoke-on-Trent where Trentham remains marked for closure? Does he realise that that pit set a European record last year for the fastest 2 million tonnes of coal ever mined and made a substantial profit? Is he aware that his claim that the pit lost £20 million this year is a fraud, because that figure includes one-off capital investment in a new administration office block, a new stockyard, a new fitting shop and new seams? Will he undertake an independent inquiry so that he can base his future actions on real facts and not on fakes?
Mr. Heseltine: I do not think that the hon. Gentleman takes into account the fact that there is no gain to British Coal in closing pits unless it sees no realistic alternative. If it sees no realistic alternative, there is no gain to British Coal in closing any other than the least efficient pits. British Coal will be charged with the responsibility for maintaining the fabric of its organisation and will obviously maintain that best if it keeps the best pits. So there is no logic in the assumptions upon which the hon. Gentleman based his question.
Mr. John Marshall: Will cheaper electricity not generate additional job opportunities in energy-intensive industry? Does my right hon. Friend accept that the only alternative to his statement is the creation of coal stocks equal to 18 months or two years' consumption—coal stocks which would make the butter mountains of the European Community appear to be mere hillocks?
Mr. Heseltine: My hon. Friend raises two points. Coal stocks are an issue that no one can avoid. They are increasing at the rate of 1 million tonnes a month. Miners in their communities know that. They mine the coal and there it is, either at the generating stations or at the pit head because there is no demand—to the tune of 1 million tonnes per month—for the coal that is being mined. Demand is scheduled to reduce by perhaps 25 million tonnes during the next few months.
My hon. Friend's second point is equally right. If we impose higher electricity charges on industry, it will make it less competitive and as a consequence there will be fewer jobs in industry. That is the sort of dilemma that we must balance.
Mr. Lawrence Cunliffe: Coming from a constituency which has endured three colliery closures within the past seven and a half months, may I convey to the Secretary of State the anxiety, the feelings and the depression of miners, with an average age of 27 years, who have moved from pit to pit with the guarantee that there will be no compulsory redundancies and who have been totally isolated and neglected and are now near, not to hope, but to despair? How can he reconcile the fact that he proposes to close profitable pits with the fact that uneconomic, dangerous nuclear power stations are being highly subsidised—to the tune of £1,260 million a year levy—and still command 20 per cent. of our total energy market? Could not the production from profitable pits replace at least 50 per cent. of that and save 10,000 miners' jobs? How can he justify the fact that the market competitiveness that he boasts about cannot have a level playing field because of a subsidised levy to protect the vested interests of the nuclear industry?
Mr. Heseltine: The hon. Gentleman ignores the cost of decommissioning the old nuclear plant. The nuclear levy exists to meet those costs. When the hon. Gentleman talks about a subsidy of more than £1 billion a year, he completely forgets the £18 billion which has gone in to the coal industry during the past 12 years.
Mr. Rod Richards: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Point of Ayr colliery in Clwyd has a market, at competitive rates, for every tonne of coal that it produces and that, even by British Coal's criteria, it should not have been included in the closure list in the first place?
Mr. Heseltine: My hon. Friend will appreciate that, as I have told many hon. Members, British Coal must calculate on the market that it foresees and not on today's market, and on the prices that it expects next April. It is well able to anticipate that position now because it is negotiating with the generators contracts which name tonnage and prices. Against that inescapable background, British Coal has made these extremely difficult proposals to me.
Mr. David Hanson: I have not once heard the Secretary of State and President of the Board of Trade apologise during this debate to the 500 miners in my constituency for the uncertainty of the closure proposals and the uncertainties that they face during the next six to nine months of the moratorium. Point of Ayr was included at the last minute and should not have been included. Why does he not take action today to ban imports of coal, which are damaging the industry, and to consider the gas situation? The gas will not go away; it is there. Why do we not have a proper, planned energy strategy which will secure the future of my miners, constituents and community?
Mr. Heseltine: Again, the hon. Gentleman will be more aware of the precise details than I am—[Interruption.] I understand that the hon. Gentleman's dilemma is that there are proposals for a gas and oil installation with an investment of some £2 billion alongside the Point of Ayr pit. That is the dilemma that we all face—a £2 billion investment to provide cheaper fuel for the electricity generating world alongside a pit which British Coal says is uneconomical and which it wishes to close. The £2 billion will create a huge number of jobs in the area concerned. There is a trade off, as hon. Members have discovered time and again.
Mr. Robin Cook: As the House will have an opportunity on Wednesday to go over the many questions that the Secretary of State has left unanswered, only one point needs to be put on the record today. To remove the confusion that appears to exist among Conservative Back Benchers and so that there is no misunderstanding of the point when we debate it on Wednesday, will the Secretary of State confirm that there is no review—independent or otherwise—proposed in his statement? On the contrary, his statement commits him during the moratorium to
"set out the full case for the closures which … I agreed".
There is no hint of a review here. If the Secretary of State is so confident of his case, why is he not willing to take his chance of arguing it before an independent review?
Mr. Heseltine: I have answered that question time and time again. I have told the House today that I shall set out in considerable detail the case upon which British Coal made its recommendations to me. I shall set out the implications of that and put them before the House once there has been a moratorium which will enable a discussion and consultations to take place. We shall not proceed with further closures until after the House has had a debate, after the moratorium has ended and after my report to the House has been made.
The hon. Gentleman wants to produce a review that will apparently raise a range of conflicting arguments upon which there will be no agreement before, during or after the review. As I said to one of my hon. Friends, those matters are deeply controversial within the energy industry, every part of which has a vested interest that it will not abandon, whatever the evidence put before it.
Ultimately, I am responsible for the Government's energy policy, which I shall set out, and I shall make clear the basis on which we intend to proceed—[HON. MEMBERS: "Resign."]
Madam Speaker: Order. I understand that the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) wishes to make an application under Standing Order No. 20.
Mr. Dennis Skinner: When the announcement was made last Tuesday, I wrote to you, Madam Speaker with respect to a Standing Order No. 20 emergency debate on the pit closure programme. Following that, the shadow Cabinet decided to allocate a supply day and, quite properly, to debate this issue. I believe that my request for an emergency debate tomorrow should continue so that we have a two-day debate to hear everything that my hon. Friends, in particular, want to say. At least 20 of them did not get a chance to put their questions today and many questions have remained unanswered, not least the last one put by my hon. Friend the Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook) about a review.
The President of the Board of Trade has been hoodwinking the people out there this afternoon. In particular, he has been hoodwinking some of his Back Benchers to give them the impression that he has delivered a moratorium when in fact he will conduct whatever limited review takes place and come back with whatever he likes. That is one of the unanswered questions.
This matter is urgent, important and specific. It is important because the Government talk about ballots yet when they discussed the matter in Cabinet they did not even have a ballot because they did not have a full Cabinet. It is also important as the matter is being rushed through because of the remaining 40 per cent. of the electricity industry to be privatised. There is 40 per cent. left to sell and the Government want to rush it through to line their friends' pockets. That is why they cannot afford to wait more than three months. They also want to get hold of the pension funds. There is £13 billion in the two pension funds belonging to the miners and others who work in the industry. It is estimated that another £1 billion is left, and the Treasury will try to get its hands on that £1 billion to pay for redundancies. That is the Government's game.
A woman in my constituency sent me a parcel yesterday. She said, "Here, take this to Heseltine. This is a miner's suit. He works in a hot seam. There's his pants; there's his vest. Give 'em to Heseltine. I hope he gets the other 30,999 and then he'll have an invaluable national asset." Here, take them. The woman said, "P.S. I've washed them, but the socks need darning." Why does not the Secretary of State put them on, clean up that coal outside his front gate, and never return?
Madam Speaker: Order. I have listened carefully to what the hon. Gentleman has said and must give my decision without stating any reasons for doing so. I am afraid that I do not consider that the matter that he has raised is appropriate for discussion under Standing Order No. 20. Therefore, at this stage, I cannot submit his application to the House.
Mr. Nigel Spearing: On a point of order, Madam Speaker. This concerns the conduct of the President of the Board of Trade. You will be aware, Madam Speaker, that on 4 March, the former and now defunct Energy Select Committee of the House—the House and the public set great store by Select Committees—published a three-volume report of 300 pages concerning the consequences of electricity privatisation. An important section of that was about the consequences for the coal industry. The Secretary of State published a response—or claimed response—on 9 June. As you will be aware, Madam Speaker, under a Cabinet minute available to all Select Committee members, the normal procedure is

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that the Government supply a response to a Select Committee report—that report had no fewer than 50 conclusions and recommendations—either by oral statement in the House, a command paper, or a memorandum to the Chair of the Committee concerned, perhaps supplemented by written answers.
In this case, a written answer and a press release referred to two documents that had been placed in the Library as deposited documents. Some hon. Members may not know that those are not normally available to the media. The two documents consisted of one memorandum of three and a half pages from the Secretary of State responding to nine of the 50 conclusions and recommendations of the Select Committee. There was another memorandum by the Director of Electricity Supply to the other 41. Some were replied to by both.
That semi-secret method and the mode of reply were not in accordance with the expectations or requirements of the House. It could be argued that, if some of those recommendations had been adopted, what we have discussed today would not have occurred. Will you therefore, Madam Speaker, rule on whether the Secretary of State's conduct was in accordance with the House's expectations? If it is not within your power so to rule, will you state by whom, which Committee and what means the President's disgraceful and inadequate conduct in a democratic state can be further examined?
Mr. Heseltine: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: Order. I cannot allow a response from the Government to a point of order which is directed to me, in the Chair, as I am sure that the Secretary of State will understand.
I am grateful to the hon. Member for Newham, South (Mr. Spearing) for giving me notice of his point of order, with a full explanation of what he had in mind. I believe that he is aware that the Government's response to a Select Committee report is a matter between the Government and the Committee—in this case the successor Committee to the Select Committee on Energy, the Select Committee
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on Trade and Industry. Therefore, alleged inadequacies in a reply do not raise questions that can be considered a point of order for me. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman has many ideas about how to pursue the matter in other ways.
Mr. Heseltine: On a point of order, Madam Speaker, may I seek your guidance as I want to help the House and clarify the matter. I shall immediately investigate how the situation arose—I suspect that it was to do with the fact that the Select Committee no longer exists. If the documents are not in the public domain, I shall seek an opportunity to put them there.
Madam Speaker: I am sure that the House appreciates what the Secretary of State has said.
Ms. Joan Walley: On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I believe that the House has been misled this afternoon. It has been given the impression that there is to be an independent review with a moratorium. In view of the fact that Trentham pit has already ceased operations on the evidence of——
Madam Speaker: Order. I want to help every Member when I can. I know that the hon. Lady has a deep constituency interest in the matter, but she is attempting to prolong questions on the statement, and I cannot let her do that by means of a point of order. I have every sympathy with her and I am sorry that I could not call her, but there are many other Members who I have been unable to call. I cannot allow further debate on the matter now.
Mr. Gerry Steinberg: On a point of order, Madam Speaker. This afternoon the Secretary of Trade failed to mention the future of Tursdale workshop in my constituency——
Madam Speaker: Order. That is a very good try, but it is not a point of order for the Chair. I saw the hon. Gentleman rising earlier and I think that he had better leave the matter with me for later. I might remember his face in a few days' time.

Orders of the Day

  Prisoners and Criminal Proceedings (Scotland) Bill [Lords]
  Order for Second Reading read.
  5.42 pm
  The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Ian Lang): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  Before I move to the substance of the debate, I shall take this opportunity to congratulate the hon. Member for Monklands, West (Mr. Clarke) on his appointment as shadow Secretary of State for Scotland. It is a major achievement and I am sure that the House will wish to congratulate him on it. I hope that he will enjoy as long and distinguished a career in that position as the hon. Member for Glasgow, Garscadden (Mr. Dewar), who will be missed at our deliberations. I also congratulate the hon. Gentleman's new Front-Bench colleagues and wish them everything that I wished their predecessors.
  Dr. Norman A. Godman: Is it the Secretary of State's intention to seek the creation of a Special Standing Committee under Standing Order No. 91? It seems that the Bill contains important measures on the management of our prisons, and such a Committee—which can meet on no more than four occasions—would be a useful way to allow Members to cross-examine witnesses and send for papers relating to this important legislation.
  Mr. Lang: I certainly agree that the Bill is full of technical and detailed measures which it will be appropriate to scrutinise closely in Committee. Indeed, I fear that my speech today may become more detailed than I would normally wish in a Second Reading debate, but it flows from the fruits of the work of the Kincraig committee—an immensely distinguished and reasonably broadly based committee. That committee report was extensively consulted and applies to a specialist sector—the House already has the benefit of an enormous degree of scrutiny and careful consideration. That will inform our deliberations in Committee as well as any Standing Committee would. Therefore, I am not minded to accede to the hon. Gentleman's request for a Special Standing Committee on this occasion, although I acknowledge the potential role of such Committees in some circumstances.[Interruption.]
  Mr. John Marshall: I have been here, and in my place, since 2.30 pm—unlike some Members who have just entered the Chamber.
  Does my right hon. Friend accept that there is widespread concern about the operation of clause 32(5), which was inserted in another place against the advice of the Government through an amendment tabled by Lord Campbell of Alloway? That clause will make it much more difficult to prosecute war criminals, who are among some of the most beastly men—if not the most beastly men—in this country. Will my right hon. Friend assure us that he will seek to reverse that decision of the House of Lords?
  Mr. Lang: My hon. Friend mentioned clause 32, and in the interest of orderly progress, I shall come to that later in my speech. When I do so, I think that I shall give my hon. Friend the sort of reassurance that he seeks.
  Mr. Menzies Campbell: There is at least one respect in which the Government have rejected the recommendations of the Kincraig report in a material matter that affects the terms of the Bill. Is not that, of itself, a compelling reason for hearing what Lord Kincraig and others with an interest in the matter have to say in a Special Standing Committee?
  Mr. Lang: It is a more compelling reason for getting the Bill into Committee quickly so that the House can satisfy itself that the Government's attitude is right. The hon. and learned Gentleman is right to say that there are a number of points on which the Government disagreed with the Kincraig committee, for reasons which have been spelt out in another place—and which will be spelt out in Committee in this place. That is not a compelling reason to use the Special Standing Committee procedure.
  As the short title suggests, the Bill serves two main purposes. The first is to reform existing arrangements for the early release of prisoners. The second is to make improvements in the law governing criminal evidence and criminal procedure in Scotland.
  The Bill is limited in scope. It does not change the substantive criminal law or significantly affect the structure of penalties available to the court. The measures in part I are, however, designed to lead to greater fairness, consistency and openness in the administration of custodial sentences. They are long awaited, and I am confident in saying that in principle they command support across the political spectrum of the House.
  As for part II, the measures will improve the administration of pre-trial and trial procedures, avoid unnecessary burdens being placed on witnesses, clarify the rights of accused persons and speed up the business of the courts. Those are highly desirable aims which I hope will be welcomed by hon. Members.
  Most of the provisions in part I stem from the recommendations of the Kincraig committee. More formally, that was the committee of inquiry into parole and related issues in Scotland, the chairman of which was Lord Kincraig. I should like to acknowledge our indebtness to that committee. Its report was generally very well received and our proposals reflect the wide acceptability of most of its recommendations.
  During the process of consultation, some reservations were expressed about what were essentially matters of detail. Where there is variation from what the committee recommended, it is largely to take account of such reservations. However, the committee established a framework of principles for a new early-release system, and the provisions in the Bill are built upon that framework.
  Part of the purpose of the new early-release provisions is to toughen the deterrent effect of sentences for serious crime. There are those who argue that the sentence of the court should mean precisely what it says—a fixed number of years in custody. The Government believe, however, like the Kincraig committee, that a better approach is to allow, within the compass of the total sentence, for a period in custody, and a period in the community during which the offender will be encouraged to resettle under

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  supervision. The provisions of part I will ensure that those sentenced to four years or more will spend at least half the period in custody, and that all will have supervision on release, potentially to the end of the period determined by the court.
  An even more important change made by the Bill is to provide for the full outstanding portion of any sentence to be served, should the offender commit another offence punishable by imprisonment after his release, but before the full period specified in the sentence has elapsed. It is this measure that restores meaning to the full sentence of the court, and ensures that the deterrent effect of the sentence lasts for the full period intended by the court which passed it.
  The provisions of part I also iron out a number of anomalies in the existing law. An important flaw in the existing system is that parole makes release at one third of sentence possible only for those serving longer determinate sentences. A prisoner serving 18 months or less must always serve at least two thirds of the sentence. A person convicted of serious offences may therefore serve a smaller proportion of his sentence than one convicted of a relatively less serious offence.
  The new provisions address the paradox whereby, under the existing law, compulsory supervision is only available for adults released on parole, who by definition pose a low risk. At present, those released at two thirds of sentence having failed to obtain parole receive no supervision whatever. Yet these are the offenders who, by definition, are considered high risk.
  The system of remission of up to one third of sentence as it now operates rules out the possibility of post-release supervision for those not granted parole. It also automatically devalues by one third the sentence passed by the court. Under the Bill, the concept of remission is abolished. The proposed new arrangements replace remission with the new concept of early-release entitlements, and address the other disadvantages of the existing arrangements.
  The fundamental elements of the new system are provided in clauses 1 and 16 of the Bill. Under clause 1, every determinate sentence prisoner will be required to serve at least half his or her sentence in custody. Long-term prisoners—defined in clause 27 as those serving sentences of four years or more—will be eligible for parole at half sentence. If not granted parole, they are to be released on licence—under supervision—after serving two thirds. All long-term prisoners will thus be subject to post-release supervision.
  Short-term prisoners—those serving less than four years—are to be released at half sentence with no automatic provision for post-release supervision. However, there is provision—in clause 14—for the courts to impose such supervision in certain cases.
  All prisoners serving determinate sentences, whatever the length of sentence, will be subject to the provisions in clause 16. Under those provisions, as I have already said, a person who commits a further imprisonable offence during the period between release from prison and the end of the full sentence will be liable to be returned to prison for the remainder of that sentence, regardless of any penalty which may be imposed for the new offence.
  Clause 1 also re-enacts existing provisions applying to the release of life prisoners. Under these provisions, the Secretary of State may release a life prisoner provided he has consulted the judiciary and has a positive
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  recommendation from the parole board. This retains the Secretary of State's ultimate discretion over the release of mandatory life prisoners—namely, those who have committed murder. Thus the crime of murder continues to be marked as uniquely serious in our law. Before a murderer can be released, it will continue to be the case that not only the parole board but the judiciary must give their views and the Secretary of State must be personally satisfied that release is appropriate. That is the safeguard which the public rightly expects in these difficult and sensitive cases.
  Clause 2, however, introduces a new system for consideration of release in cases where the sentence of life has been passed not as a mandatory sentence, but as a maximum, expressly for the purpose of protecting the public. That new provision meets, for Scotland, the United Kingdom's obligation to change the law in accordance with the judgment of the European Court of Human Rights in the case of Thynne, Wilson and Gunnell. A discretionary life prisoner is one on whom the court has imposed a life sentence partly as punishment for one or more offences and partly to protect the public. The ECHR judgment established that once the punitive grounds for the sentence no longer hold, the public risk ground is a matter which must be open to periodic review by a body having the status and constitution of a court.
  Clause 2 provides for the court, when passing a discretionary life sentence, to determine by order the period for which the prisoner is to be detained on punitive grounds alone. At the end of that period, the prisoner will be entitled to periodic reviews of the continuing public risk grounds for his detention. For this purpose, we propose to bring forward rules under clause 20 whereby the parole board will be constituted and function as a court. If the board finds that it is no longer necessary for the safety of the public that the prisoner should continue to be detained, it will be able to direct his release on licence.
  Having described at some length the main provisions in part I, I shall deal with the remainder.
  Mr. Menzies Campbell: My attention is immediately attracted by the notion of the parole board operating as a court. Will it do so only in the limited respect made necessary by clause 2, or will the whole of the functions of the parole board be conducted as if it were a court? As the right hon. Gentleman will know, the latter would give rise to certain potential consequences with regard to the way in which the decisions of the parole board may be capable of review in another place.
  Mr. Lang: The parole board will operate as a court in the case of these non-mandatory life sentences, and only in the context of the risk to the public, after the punitive component of the sentence has been dealt with.
  Dr. Godman: Under clause 21, what kind of person will be appointed to the position of parole adviser? Will that be a voluntary position undertaken by, say, members of local review committees, or will the post be an additional role taken on by members of the social work departments in prisons?
  Mr. Lang: Persons appointed as parole advisers will be appointed on merit, taking into account their experience and their suitability to give advice to the parole board. The hon. Gentleman may wish to pursue that point in Committee.

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  Clause 3 provides a new power to release a prisoner on licence at any stage of sentence if there are compassionate grounds for doing so. There are at present no satisfactory means of releasing, for example, a prisoner who becomes terminally ill or permanently disabled. If the case is very strong, I am able to exercise the royal prerogative of mercy on Her Majesty's behalf, but this is rarely appropriate. The parole board can intervene only if the prisoner is under parole review at the appropriate time, but it distorts the purpose of the board to expect it to recommend parole purely as a device to achieve release in these cases. The Kincraig committee, in highlighting the unsatisfactory nature of existing powers, recommended a new power, and clause 3 is based on its proposals. There will be consultation with the parole board about any proposal for compassionate release, provided time allows, but this will be designed to assist the Secretary of State to address the public risk. The initiative for compassionate release will remain with the Secretary of State and will not be delegated to the board.
  Clauses 4 to 9 deal with the application of the new early-release arrangements in particular circumstances or to particular classes of prisoner or detainee, including prisoners who are transferred to mental hospitals; fine defaulters and those imprisoned for contempt of court; young offenders and children; and prisoners who are subject to deportation on release. So far as possible all classes of persons held in custody will have comparable early release entitlements, but there are certain important differences.
  One particular difference which I should like to highlight is that the release of children sentenced by the courts will be possible at any time, on the positive recommendation of the parole board. They will not have to wait for any particular proportion of sentence to elapse before release can be considered. Even children sentenced to less than four years will be supervised on release, thus taking into account the particular need for social work support for those who have committed crimes at a very young age.
  Clause 10 sets out the conditions under which a life prisoner transferred to Scotland from another jurisdiction is to be treated as a discretionary life prisoner for the purposes of clause 2. Clauses 11, 12, 13 and 17 deal with the duration and conditions of licences—in particular, the condition of compulsory social work supervision which will attach to all licences at the point of release—and with revocation of licences.
  Clauses 14, 15, 18 and 19 provide for a new supervised release order to be imposed at the discretion of the courts on certain short-term prisoners, for the variation of such orders, penalties for breach of supervision requirements, and appeals.
  The Kincraig committee recommended that there should be no compulsory supervision for those released from sentences of five years or less, but that was one of the few recommendations that attracted adverse comment. Concern was expressed about the need for post-release supervision of some shorter-term prisoners, especially those convicted of violent offences or offences against children. The provision for supervised release orders is designed to meet that concern.
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  I shall describe a supervised release order as akin to a mini-probation order added to the end of the custodial part of a sentence. The order may be made by the sentencing court in passing a sentence of 12 months or more, but under four years. It will require the offender to comply with social work supervision on release from custody for a period not exceeding 12 months. The purpose of the order, as stated in the Bill, is to protect the public from serious harm. The circumstances in which a supervised release order should be made will be for the judicial discretion, but we envisage that it will be particularly appropriate in cases of sexual or violent offending. The offender who breaches the order will be dealt with by the court that made it, and may be returned to custody for the whole outstanding period of the order since the breach.
  Clause 20 and schedule 2 provide for the continued existence of the Parole Board for Scotland. My noble and learned Friend the Lord Advocate has already, in another place, paid tribute to the sterling work of the parole board and in particular its chairman for the past 12 years, Mrs. Jean Morris. One cannot speak too highly of the dedication, experience and care with which she and the other members of the board carry out their onerous duties. In addition to the re-enactment—with some modifications—of existing provisions relating to the board, the Bill will enable the Secretary of State to delegate to the board, by order, the power to decide rather than advise on the release of specified classes of prisoner.
  Clause 20 also empowers the Secretary of State to issue policy directions to the board which will clarify the basis for parole decisions. Expressly, the Bill provides that in giving his directions, the Secretary of State should have regard to the need to protect the public from serious harm from offenders, and the desirability of preventing the commission by offenders of further offences and of securing their rehabilitation. That provision gives public risk central prominence in the parole decision, as recommended by the Kincraig committee.
  Clause 21 provides for the appointment of parole advisers, whose function—as recommended by the Kincraig committee—will be to assist prisoners who otherwise might have difficulty in understanding the parole system or in expressing adequately any representations that they may wish to make to the board. The purpose of clauses 22 and 23 is to provide the Secretary of State with adequate powers in relation to the assignment and transfer of prisoners, and the temporary holding of young offenders in prisons.
  Mr. Jimmy Wray: Clause 24 is the only one that refers to untried prisoners. As the Secretary of State is aware, a prison governor is responsible for the discipline of untried prisoners, but who is responsible for their safety? In Barlinnie prison in my constituency, two people have taken their lives and there has been one attempted suicide in the past nine months. Surely the Government are responsible for safety.
  Mr. Lang: I am subject to later correction, but I anticipate that the governor is responsible for such matters within his prison. I understand the hon. Gentleman's concern about these sad cases in which, too often, young prisoners take their lives in trying and difficult circumstances.

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  As I said earlier, the provisions in part II of the Bill would make a number of useful improvements in the law relating to both evidence and procedure in criminal proceedings. Clause 28 gives effect to recommendations made by the Scottish Law Commission in its "Report on Evidence: Blood Group Tests, DNA Tests, and Other Related Matters". It provides a statutory framework for the taking during criminal investigations of fingerprints, impressions and other forensic samples.
  Clause 29 and schedule 3 make provision for statements in business documents to be admissible in criminal proceedings. They also provide for copies of documents to be admissible as being equivalent to the originals. These provisions, which were moved in another place by my noble and learned Friend the Lord Advocate in response to an amendment tabled by the noble Lord Macaulay of Bragar, reflect work carried out by the Scottish Law Commission following publication of a discussion paper by the commission. It is thought that those provisions will serve to reduce the need for witnesses to attend court to give evidence which is otherwise contained in such documents.
  Clause 30 makes provision to bring the law up to date in respect of the admissibility of evidence contained in audio or video recordings. Clause 31 provides, in effect, that the transcript of an interview between a customs officer and an accused person is to be received in evidence on the same basis as the transcript of an interview between a police officer and an accused person.
  The purpose of clause 32 is to make it possible for evidence in solemn proceedings, whether in the High Court of Justiciary or before the sheriff, to be given from abroad by live television link, with appropriate safeguards. I should like to dispel any misunderstandings about the nature of this provision. It is not designed to enable video-taped evidence to be given in Scottish courts. The link would be live. The witness would be televised giving evidence in a courtroom abroad and the television monitor in Scotland would show live proceedings.
  The provision could be used to benefit either the prosecution or the defence case. It is quite possible that the defence case could be reliant on testimony from a witness residing abroad, who could not be compelled to attend the court in Scotland. The provision is in no way biased towards the prosecution. Moreover, the provision embodies stringent safeguards for the rights of the accused. Either party may apply to the court for the use of a live television link, but if the application is by the prosecution, the court must be satisfied that it is not unfair to the accused. The court must also be satisfied that it is in the interest of justice, and that the evidence which the witness is able to give is necessary for the proper adjudication of the trial.
  Similar provision has existed in England and Wales since the Criminal Justice Act 1988. The law of Scotland has fallen behind in this area. It is right that the parties to a trial and their witnesses should be able to benefit from the use of modern technology, where it is in the interests of justice for them to do so. Therefore, it is a matter of concern that, as the House is aware, subsection (5) of clause 32 was added to the provisions in this clause in another place against the Government's advice and policy. It would preclude the taking of evidence from abroad by live television link in any proceedings under the War Crimes Act 1991.
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  In the Government's view, which I suspect many hon. Members will share, it is unacceptable that there should be different evidential provision for trials under that Act. It creates anomalies in the law of Scotland purely to meet concerns in another place about war crimes legislation. The principle of war crimes legislation has, however, been established by this House, and we do not intend to allow that question to be reopened by an indirect route. We therefore intend to bring forward an amendment to clause 32 to remove subsection (5).
  Many hon. Members hold strong views on the issues which arise in connection with clause 32 and will wish to take part in the debate on that amendment. Therefore, I propose to table the amendment on Report so that we may have a more open debate than would be possible in Committee. I trust that members of the Committee will feel able to exercise restraint so as not to anticipate or pre-empt debate on the amendment at a later stage. We hope and believe that, as a result of that debate, the message will go loud and clear to the other place that this House supports the clause in its original and unamended form.
  Clauses 33 to 35 contain further provisions in relation to the giving of evidence by children in criminal proceedings. The broad aim of these provisions is to reduce the stress on children who are involved in such proceedings, while safeguarding—as we must—the rights of the accused.
  Dr. Godman: The Secretary of State knows that I am keenly interested in clauses 32 to 35. Am I right in thinking that the whole of a child's evidence may be taken pre-trial? If such a procedure is followed, a child need not attend the criminal trial.
  Mr. Lang: That is my understanding. It would involve not just a child giving evidence but a child being cross-examined by the defence and the prosecution precisely in order to avoid the kind of stress that would result from bringing him or her to the courtroom in what could be difficult and stressful circumstances.
  Clause 36 gives effect to the provisions in schedule 4 to the Bill, which further extend existing law on certificate evidence. Clause 37 clarifies the procedures for adjournment for inquiry in summary proceedings. Clause 38 extends existing provisions which enable a court to order a preliminary diet so that agreement may be reached before a trial on matters of evidence or other issues. Clause 39 makes provision for a judge sitting in solemn proceedings to deal with other business while the jury are considering their verdict. Clause 40 amends existing legislation so as to require courts to specify the date of commencement of a sentence of imprisonment or detention, and to give reasons where such a sentence is not backdated to take account of time spent in custody before sentence. Clause 41, the last in part II, will enable the Crown to apply to the court to set aside a conviction where the prosecutor believes that the judgment on which that conviction is founded should not be maintained.
  Provision for a number of additional procedural reforms is made in schedule 5 to the Bill.
  I hope that this overview of the Bill has been helpful to the House. It is, as I say, a Bill whose basic intentions command cross-party support.
  Dr. Godman: Will the Secretary of State give me an assurance that he will, by way of the Bill, set up a visiting

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  committee for the prison in Greenock? He will surely agree that visiting committees play an important part in managing tension and dealing with grievances within prisons and that the present circumstances in Greenock are wholly untenable. As Lord Fraser of Carmyllie said to me in a recent letter, that prison needs a visiting committee.
  Mr. Lang: The Bill makes no provision for such matters because there is no need for a change in statutory arrangements to enable a visiting committee to be set up in Greenock. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will wish to pursue that matter in Committee, where he will have the opportunity to table amendments and speak to them. I share his view on the value of such committees and the desirability of having them.
  In conclusion, I believe that the basic intentions of the Bill command cross-party support. I look forward to constructive and helpful debate which concentrates on the detail rather than on the basic principles of what we are trying to achieve. I commend the Bill to the House. It embraces a considerable number of small but immensely worthwhile reforms.
  6.11 pm
  Mr. Tom Clarke: I begin by thanking the Secretary of State for the kind comments that he made at the start of his speech. I think that it was Harold Macmillan who once said that a few kind words in politics go a long way. I appreciate what the Secretary of State said. Perhaps on reflection he will feel that the suggestion made by my hon. Friend the Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman) about the Special Standing Committee is at least worthy of consideration, as there is a great deal of support for it. I know that he replied to that suggestion off the cuff.
  I welcome, as my hon. Friends will, the firmness that the Secretary of State showed over clause 32. The House having made its view on principle absolutely plain, it is right and reasonable that modern technology should be made available to assist the courts in reaching their conclusions.
  The Opposition are pleased that the Bill has finally arrived at Second Reading but I am appalled at the length of time it has taken to reach this stage. Hon. Members will recall the timescale. The Kincraig committee first met in January 1988 and published its report in March 1989. The Government's response was produced in September 1990—over two years ago. In England and Wales, the main recommendations of the Carlisle report were incorporated in the Criminal Justice Act 1991 which came into force on 1 October 1992. However, in Scotland we are still discussing the Kincraig report.
  As the Secretary of State will be aware, the Parole Board for Scotland, in its annual report for 1991, felt so strongly that it
  "expressed its concern that the delay in implementing the recommendations of the Kincraig Report, published in March 1989, would lead to anomalies between the Scottish and English judiciaries and create uncertainty for those involved in the parole process."
  The incompetence in the Government's administrative approach has left Scotland yet again following behind England and Wales. Not only that, but the Bill proposes reforms that would benefit the whole prison system but
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  that are left unimplemented. That cannot be good for our already overstretched prison system. I urge the Government to show considerably more vigilance on these important matters.
  I find it surprising that, over this period, the Government have not found time for a debate on the report. The Opposition owe a great deal—we acknowledge it—to Lord Macaulay of Bragar, who had the matter raised in another place. We are thankful for his input in the Bill.
  Before I examine in detail the issues addressed in the Bill, I must qualify my initial pleasure at the fact that we have at last reached Second Reading. I think that many organisations involved in this sector agree that an opportunity has been missed—the opportunity to introduce a new Prisons Act to replace existing legislation. As many hon. Members will be aware, the Prisons (Scotland) Act 1989 simply consolidated earlier amendments to the Prisons (Scotland) Act 1952, which was itself a consolidation of previous legislation. Therefore, we have a system operating on out-of-date legislation and one that is in desperate need of a thorough overhaul. The Secretary of State will know that there is much support for that view.
  If the Government had taken the bold but necessary step of introducing a new Prisons Act, many wider issues of concern not included in this Bill could have been taken into consideration—issues such as prison legislation and prisoners' rights. The House will know that prison rules are, in the main, made by means of statutory instruments, which lack real heavyweight legislative status. Everyday life in prison for the prisoners is determined by prison administrators, without real public scrutiny. I was glad to read that the Government undertook to review the prison rules. I look forward to seeing a timetable for this, as this is clearly a much needed reform which would be greatly welcomed.
  The basic principle of attempting to reduce the prison population in Scotland is highly desirable. This is all the more so because the prison population in Scotland is 5,350 as opposed to 4,750 some 12 months ago—a significant rise in such a short period. The considerable cost of imprisoning a person means that such a rise results in an expensive bill. It is interesting to note that the average sentence in 1950 was 30 days, but by 1985 this had increased to 241. The uneven distribution of population in Scottish prisons has caused the major problems of which we are all aware when we look at the incidents that have taken place over a long period and resulted in enormous strain on everyone concerned, not least prison staff.
  It may interest hon. Members to know that 40 per cent. of the Scottish prison population consists of fine defaulters. When it is considered that on average it costs about £12,000 to keep someone in prison for 12 months, I am sure that the House will agree that there must be better ways of dealing with fine defaulters and that we should be looking for opportunities to introduce and implement them.
  I welcome the attempts that have been made in framing the Bill to have a closer link between the length of sentence passed by the judge and the length of time spent in prison.
  Mr. Menzies Campbell: Is it within the hon. Gentleman's experience that those who tend to default on fines tend also to be the poorest and most disadvantaged in the community? They are often people who are out of work or who suffer from a disability. Very often they are

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  female single parents. Does that not reinforce the notion that some alternative means should be found so that such people can pay a debt to the community that does not have to be expressed in pounds and pence?
  Mr. Clarke: The hon. and learned Gentleman is correct. I hope that the Bill will give us the opportunity to consider what we are doing as a society. Our present response in many instances is to imprison those who experience great poverty, people who in many cases are unable to pay their fines, and ask taxpayers to pay the bill. That seems to be an odd way of going about these matters.
  The Secretary of State has suggested that the Bill has three main purposes. He explained that the first purpose is the fundamental reform of the parole system. Secondly, there is the new arrangement for dealing with life sentence prisoners, which will go some way to fulfilling Scotland's obligations under the European convention on human rights. Thirdly, the Bill seeks to make changes to the law of Scotland on criminal evidence and procedure.
  I welcome the third purpose of the Bill, which is the change in criminal evidence procedure. I know that in so doing I speak for many of my hon. Friends and not least my hon. Friend the Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman), who has pursued the matter for many years. I hope that he will feel that there is at least some response to his representations as we discuss the Bill.
  We are happy with many of the Bill's provisions, which we consider to be welcome developments. Among those that stand out is the use of evidence by live television link. It will be advantageous in a financial sense and in cases where the individual who is giving evidence is under 14 years of age and has been subject to a serious assault, in some cases sexual offences. The presence of the alleged perpetrator of such crimes—we discussed this when we debated the Children Act 1990—is often a horrifying ordeal for a young child. Many psychologists have long advocated the use of a television link or protective screens to protect a young person. Such provision is, thankfully, included in the Bill.
  The provisions in clause 2 deal with discretionary life prisoners. The clause introduces new arrangements that go some way to meet obligations to change the law in accordance with the judgments of the European Court of Human Rights. I emphasise "some way" because there are aspects of the European court's thinking that we might have taken more meaningfully on board. I am sure that they will he discussed in Committee and when consideration of the Bill returns to the Floor of the House.
  There are many issues to be addressed, including parole and the implications that possible changes will have on the activities of social workers. The House will recall that the introduction of parole as we know it stemmed from a Labour party initiative and the conclusions of a study group which was chaired by Long Longford. The study group produced a paper entitled "The Adult Offender", which paved the way for the relevant provisions that appeared in the Criminal Justice Act 1967.
  Clause 14 introduces new supervisory release orders for short-term prisoners serving between 12 months and four years. What will the resource implications be—the question has been asked—if there is a dramatic use of such orders? I hope to hear from the Government whether they have allowed for such a use of the orders and have made arrangements accordingly for the necessary resources that will be needed to make such legislation meaningful.
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  Possibly of even more concern to social workers are the provisions in clauses 11 to 13, which concern the supervision of long-term prisoners and the conditions and duration of their licence. The provisions could produce many difficult and potentially dangerous situations. In reality, hardened and experienced criminals with the most difficult and chaotic lifestyles will be released after they have served two-thirds of their sentence with mandatory supervision, something in which they will be reluctant to participate. Previously, parole was something that prisoners opted into. They were, therefore, willing to participate in it. That did not present the difficulties that we are now addressing.
  The longer the sentence the longer will be the supervision period. I shall emphasise the point. Someone who is sentenced to 30 years and who leaves prison after 20 years will remain under supervision for the next 10 years. That is a long period of supervision. Immense difficulties may be encountered and I offer no easy solution, except to encourage adequate funding and support for social workers whose responsibility it is to supervise long-term prisoners.
  If the Bill and so much other legislation is to be effective, the role of social workers is crucial. We all know that there are times when social workers feel that they are under attack. They feel that they will be criticised no matter what decision they take and they are aware of their awesome responsibility. I wish, therefore, to go on record as supporting their role and to indicate that the Opposition do not believe, with the best will in the world, that the Bill can be as effective as we wish it to be without the good will that so many social workers have contributed to the system, for which we thank them.
  Clause 3 covers the power to release prisoners on compassionate grounds. The clause highlights the important issue of the relevant roles of the judiciary and the Executive. At present, a prisoner who applies to the parole board—the executive for parole, as it were—has no right of appearance, no right of appeal if his application is rejected and no right to be given a reason for the rejection of his application.
  Clause 17 covers a short-term, long-term or life prisoner who has been released on licence but has had his licence revoked on the recommendation of the parole board but makes no provision for any form of representation to be made by the prisoner to the parole board on the recall of the licence. This is a concern that has been expressed by the Law Society of Scotland. I am sure that the Secretary of State and his ministerial colleagues will consider that that is a heavyweight view and one that is worthy of a considered response.
  If there is a belief in natural justice, parole cases should be heard in an open forum and not in secret. Secrecy allows for accusations that secret justice is being dispensed. I shall use some quotes to elaborate the argument. Rupert Cross, in "Punishment, Prison and the Public", said:
  "There can be no doubt that the increase in the control of the Executive over the offender after he has been sentenced has been one of the major features of 20th century penal history in this country."
  Terrence Morris, in "Deviance and Control", wrote:
  "The spectre of Executive justice casts deep shadows across the light of freedom under the law … For above all, justice which is done in private must always lie under the suspicion that its reasoning may be arbitrary and instrumental and such as would wither behind closed doors."

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  Bad behaviour that offends the prison code should be dealt with by prison authorities in the normal way. A criminal act, however, is a matter for the law. The two ought not to be confused, as they often have been under the present system.
  Although I am a long-term supporter of advocacy in community care, I have always believed that advisers must be trained and experienced in their individual disciplines. Although the creation of parole advisers is long overdue, and is most welcome, it is essential that they should be properly trained—and clause 21 makes no provision for that. In the debate in the other place, Lord Fraser stated that any long-term establishment would have between one and five advisers, who would be local to the prison and have a previous involvement in it. Will the Secretary of State say who those people will be and whether he will ensure that proper provision is made for their legal training?
  Offender services are currently funded by the Scottish Office and regional councils under what has become known as 100 per cent. funding arrangements. I shall be interested to know, as will many agencies, what is the Government's estimate of the number of individuals concerned. One would expect an increase, but the Government's funding intentions are not clear.
  If the Government believe that abolishing statutory supervision of 16 to 20-year-olds by social service departments is a quid pro quo in favour of the new system, that presumption may be fundamentally flawed. There are only 600 such cases in Scotland at present, which is far fewer than the expected increase, and suggests only a small potential offset. Those 600 individuals are mainly minor offenders, not hardened criminals.
  The Scottish Association for the Care and Resettlement of Offenders states:
  "To add the parole requirements contained in this Bill without providing funds for increased staffing levels would make a mockery of implementation."
  My experience has provided dreadful evidence of inadequate individuals in prison who ought not to be there. [Laughter.] Despite the response of my hon. Friends, today of all days the hon. Member for Tayside, North (Mr. Walker) has performed a valuable service. If he succeeds in removing the President of the Board of Trade from office, that is another reason why we should be grateful for his presence this evening.
  Mr. Bill Walker: One of my main tasks is to ensure that the hon. Gentleman never gets into office.
  Mr. Clarke: Despite my attempt to express a minority view from this side of the House in welcoming the hon. Gentleman, he is not likely to meet with great success. In fact, this afternoon showed that before very long we will be seated on the other side of the House. I look forward to implementing not only the Bill in an improved form but more important legislation.
  Many of those who ought not to find themselves in prison are mentally ill or mentally handicapped, and are there only because shelters and other suitable accommodation have been closed and the courts have nowhere else to send them. Such people create petty crimes or create disturbances and are sent to prison, where at least they are looked after and fed.
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  That is a failing not of the prison system, but of society to make adequate provision for the mentally disturbed and mentally handicapped. I am aware that appropriate training and briefings for prison staff have begun, and hope that they will continue. However, the effect on prison staff must also be considered. They became prison officers to perform a public service in looking after ordinary inmates, but increasingly they are expected to supervise the special categories of prisoners that I mentioned. That is a gross misuse of the prison service's expensive resources, and the important needs of such prisoners in terms of care in the community ought to be met in more civilised ways.
  The right hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh, Pentlands (Mr. Rifkind), when Secretary of State for Scotland, wrote:
  "People should only go to prison when there is no reasonable alternative."
  We entirely agree. We thought that was the main thrust of the Bill and of the Government's thinking, as they previously explained it.
  It cannot be right that prison staff who have been trained to deal with the problems of individual prisoners should be required to fulfil the role of the medical, hospital, or psychiatric services—yet that is a growing practice.
  The Gunn report found that one third of a sample of male prisoners in England and Wales and 59 per cent. of female prisoners suffered some kind of psychiatric disorder. The Guardian commented on that report:
  "At least one in five sentenced prisoners is thought to have a mental disorder. A study funded by the Home Office and published last October put the incidence as high as 14,000 of the 38,000 sentenced prison population, with 1,100 so ill that they required immediate treatment."
  Figures for England are readily available. Does the Secretary of State have comparable figures for Scotland? In the absence of relevant information, neither the House nor the Committee will be able to give the Bill the attention that it deserves, so I invite the Secretary of State to provide it.
  Such revelations are extremely worrying to medical staff who seek to serve such prisoners, voluntary organisations, and the families of the individuals in question. In December 1991, the Health Service Journal reported at length on that problem under the headline
  "Prisoners who know not what they have done."
  That there should be such people in prison experiencing enormous difficulties, unable to cope with their environment, and who do not know why they are there, says a lot. Surely there are better ways of dealing with such citizens.
  Colin McKay of the Scottish Society for the Mentally Handicapped writes:
  "There are no adequate alternatives to prison, particularly for people with a mild or moderate handicap who persistently offend … The police have little training in mental handicap and may fail to recognise it or not know what to do about it. There is a Scottish Office circular on interviewing mentally disordered suspects, but it is a long way short of the more rigorous English code of practice under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984."
  Owing to time constraints and the inadequacy of legal aid, defence lawyers may not pick up the fact that a person has a mental handicap. Clearly, we are dispensing with the law in such cases; I am sure that the Secretary of State will take that on board.

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  It is, and I believe that it always will be, the will of the House that justice should prevail at all times. With that in mind, let me remind the House of the view of the Woolf report:
  "It is fundamental to the prison service's position as part of the criminal justice system that it should ensure that prisoners are treated with justice in prisons".
  I hope that the Bill will make certain that that is done; I also hope, fervently, that the necessary changes will be made in Committee, and I look forward to viewing the Bill at that stage.
  My hon. Friends have no desire to obstruct the Bill's progress; quite the reverse. We shall, however, seek to improve it at every stage—if only because of our belief that a radical approach based on a coherent philosophy, incorporating social justice for all prisoners, prison staff and society in general, is pivotal to dealing with many of the problems that currently exist. An efficient and humanitarian criminal justice system can ensure that the needs of society are fully met, and we are determined to achieve that objective.
  6.41 pm
  Mr. George Kynoch: I listened with great interest to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State's introduction to this largely technical Bill. In the light of recent statistics relating, for example, to the dramatic increase in the use of firearms in robberies—from 246 cases in 1990 to 440 in 1991, an increase of some 79 per cent.—I welcome some of the parole proposals. Since 1979, there has been a massive 50 per cent. increase in expenditure on the police force, and, in the past three years, £41.4 million has been spent on prison building. It is, however, important to review parole procedure alongside those developments, and I think that the Bill is moving in the right direction.
  If the parole system is to succeed, parole should be seen as an outcome that is far from automatic—an outcome that is earned through good behaviour. Proposals to ensure that no prisoner is released having served less than half his sentence are very welcome. I also consider it reasonable to distinguish between prisoners serving sentences longer than four years and those serving sentences shorter than four years, and the placing of emphasis on the recall to prison of those who reoffend on parole is clearly necessary.
  With regard to the giving of evidence and the use of technology, I particularly welcome the introduction of pre-trial videos for cases involving children. Children giving evidence go through significant trauma, and anything that we can do to help them must be commended. I also welcome my right hon. Friend's assurance that he will seek an amendment in Committee to remove clause 32(5)—I was very surprised when it was introduced in the other place.
  Another problem involving evidence does not appear to be covered by the Bill. I believe that it could be covered, and I hope that my right hon. Friend will incorporate the necessary change in Committee. During the recess, I spent an interesting day in the company of Ken Shaw of the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, going up Royal Deeside. Throughout my business life, I never observed nature to the extent that I did that day. It was quite an experience, and I was particularly pleased to see a golden eagle: that was, perhaps, my objective.
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  At one point, the conversation turned to the problems faced by the RSPB, and by nature conservancy organisations, in prosecuting those who contravene laws relating to the protection of wildfowl. I was informed that, in Scotland, the evidence of two witnesses is required to bring about convictions under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981. I believe that they should be permitted on the evidence of a single witness. Under the present law, offenders frequently escape prosecution because their actions have been observed by only one person; that is understandable, given that many such offences occur in largely rural areas in constituencies similar to mine. The RSPB is aware of occasions on which offenders such as egg collectors or persons laying poisoned baits for unlawful predator control have been seen in the process of committing such offences. However, because the offences have tended to occur in remote and thinly populated areas, they have usually been recorded by only one witness. I urge my right hon. Friend and the Government—who have consistently encouraged good stewardship and protection of our rural heritage—to table an amendment or a new clause to the Bill in Committee to close the loophole and bring offenders to book.
  As I understand it, the basic principle under Scottish law is that all evidence must be corroborated to be admissible. I believe, however, that various statutes allow conviction on the evidence of a single person, in particular those dealing with the protection of game. For example, section 25(4) of the Deer (Scotland) Act 1959 and section 30(2) of the Salmon Act 1986 permit courts to convict on the evidence of one witness for some of the offences created under those statutes. More recently, the Government have incorporated the single-witness exception in section 87(7) of the Environmental Protection Act 1990, admitting single-witness evidence for the offence of dropping litter. There is, therefore, a clear precedent for the conviction of an individual on the basis of one person's evidence—notably, where the circumstances would not allow a conviction otherwise because of the remoteness of the scene of the crime.
  Let me give an example, which I believe is still current in my constituency. An amateur field worker, while on his own, came across a failed hen harrier nest. He became suspicious: he could see from the condition of the nest that young had hatched, but they were now absent and he saw no sign of natural predation. Having examined the area closely, he found the bodies of the chicks buried nearby. He removed them, and the matter was duly reported to the local police. Detailed examination showed the bodies to be crushed—damage clearly inconsistent with the behaviour of an animal predator.
  A thorough police investigation revealed further alleged offences by an identifiable individual; but, because of a lack of corroboration of the field worker's discoveries, evidence of the serious primary offence can never be put before a court. That is not right.
  Another example outwith my constituency but just as relevant occurred earlier this year. An RSPB field worker saw three people—who were known to be egg collectors, all of whom had previous convictions for egg collecting, including several convictions for the taking of golden eagles' eggs in Scotland—rob a golden eagle's nest. Their car was stopped and searched some hours later by the police. They were unaware of any potential incident but they had recognised the men.

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  No eggs were found, although the climbing equipment that the men used to rob the nest was found in the car. It is, I believe, common practice for egg thieves not to take their booty with them. They hide the stolen eggs near the scene of the crime and return to collect the eggs out of season when they will not arouse suspicion. In view of past experience of attempting to prosecute in these circumstances, the RSPB agreed with the police that further action was pointless, despite the fact that a serious wildlife crime had taken place in full view of a witness.
  I do not suggest that the Government should change the law in such a way as to allow an open-ended list of crimes to be included. There should, however, be a clear list of specified offences relating not just to the offence but to the species concerned so as to provide for the protection of those birds that are most at risk. If the Government included such a provision in the Bill, there would be further consistency regarding the protection of all wildlife in our rural habitats.
  I am sure that such a provision would not be controversial and that it would be supported by all hon. Members. It is a necessary provision that could be included in the Bill as a means of tidying up the law relating to witnesses' evidence. I urge my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland seriously to consider moving an amendment or a new clause in Committee in order to bring that about.
  6.52 pm
  Mr. Menzies Campbell: The hon. Member for Kincardine and Deeside (Mr. Kynoch) has raised the issue of corroboration regarding the protection of birds. Like other hon. Members, I have received briefing material, if one may so describe it. The difficulty inherent in the hon. Gentleman's proposal is that it is easy to make a special case, but every time that one makes a special case arguing for relaxation of the principle of corroboration in the law of Scotland, it is much easier on a subsequent occasion—perhaps less deserving—for another exception to be made. The hon. Gentleman referred to admissibility as though that were the same as corroboration, but he is mistaken. Evidence may be admissible, but there may be insufficient of it—that is, it is insufficiently corroborated—to justify a conviction.
  The Committee may consider the hon. Gentleman's proposals in some detail, but I have an inherent reservation about the notion that the law of corroboration can simply be set aside whenever circumstances arise that appear, prima facie at least, to justify it. I well remember a debate in the House when a substantial review was made of the law of corroboration in civil actions. If I am not mistaken, the Minister who is to reply to this debate, the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland—the hon. Member for Edinburgh, West (Lord James Douglas-Hamilton)—replied on that occasion. To some extent because of the prompting of the hon. Member for Dumfries (Sir H. Monro), he reiterated strongly the Government's commitment to the notion of corroboration in criminal cases. I hope that this evening he will once again say that the Government are committed to that principle, while not entirely setting aside the apparently persuasive arguments of the hon. Gentleman.
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  I believe, like the hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman), that the Bill might well have been an obvious candidate for consideration by a Special Standing Committee. When I read the Bill in detail, I thought that if ever there were a compelling argument for the devolution of legislative power to Edinburgh, it rested in the terms of this Bill. These are exactly the matters that ought to be considered by a Scottish Parliament sitting in Edinburgh. They trench upon the nature of the administration of an important part of the Government's activities in Scotland. They could much more effectively and efficiently be dealt with in a legislature with delegated power, rather than here at Westminster.
  Dr. Godman: I agree with everything that the hon. and learned Gentleman says about a Scottish Parliament. One reason why I suggested that the Bill should be considered by a Special Standing Committee was that we appear to be leapfrogging the English and Welsh legislation in terms of child care law reform. That, surely, is helpful for children on both sides of the border.
  Mr. Campbell: The hon. Gentleman, who has a distinguished record in the policy area to which he just referred, makes a powerful point, but, in the context of the Bill, some of the changes that it seeks to effect have been part of the legislative framework of England and Wales for a considerable time.
  The tribute paid to the Kincraig committee was entirely justified. Lord Kincraig was a distinguished member of the Scottish Bench. He was Dean of the Faculty of Advocates. He came to the task that was allotted to him with a great deal of experience. He discharged that task very competently. His report, although it may not justify the description that it was a model of its kind, none the less ensured that our debate today is much better informed than it might have been.
  Early release—for that is what we must now call it—is an essential part of the penal system. It recognises the possibility of reform. By its very existence it contributes to prison discipline and it will almost certainly have an influence on the nature of a prison regime. The issues with which we are concerned, as the two opening speeches made clear, are complicated in practice. It is significant that to some extent the speeches that have already been made had about them a Committee stage rather than a Second Reading flavour. I hope, however, that hon. Members will not regard this as lawyers' work. There is wide public interest in the way in which we deal with those who commit offences.
  The numbers are relatively small. The hon. Member for Monklands, West (Mr. Clarke) said there were 5,500 people in prison, but any member of society may at any time find himself and, increasingly, herself propelled into the penal system. Public interest is, therefore, significant. We must endeavour to achieve a balance in which society properly reflects its distaste and condemnation of conduct that is contrary to the best interests of society while at the same time ensuring that the interests of those who are convicted and find themselves in custody are properly protected.
  That is a difficult balance to justify. It is not always assisted by florid assertions that people who are sent to prison enjoy a good life. Hardly a Christmas goes past without a tabloid newspaper describing the pleasures that are enjoyed by those who happen to be in prison at that

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  time. I doubt very much whether the reporters who write these stories with such enthusiasm would willingly swap their own celebrations of the day for those enjoyed by people who are in Barlinnie prison or Saughton.
  As I acknowledged in response to the intervention of the hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow, experience in England has been different because of its different legislative framework. In 1987, 57.3 per cent. of those eligible were admitted to early release, whereas in Scotland the figure was only 28.4 per cent. The systems are different, but perhaps that shows that there is more sensitivity in England, to which we hope the Bill will direct us.
  In the other place, when dealing with discretionary life sentences under clause 2, following the judgment of the European Court of Human Rights, to which the Secretary of State referred in his opening remarks, the noble Lord Advocate said—I think that the Secretary of State confirmed this—that the parole board was to act as a court. I asked the Secretary of State whether that was to be confined to its jurisdiction for clause 2 cases or whether it was to have wider significance. I hope that I do not do the Secretary of State an injustice, but it seems that he did not quite grasp my point. I understood him to say that the authority to establish the parole board as a court was to be found under clause 20. I think that is what I heard; if I am wrong, I stand corrected. I have read the clause with some care and find it difficult to see how the authority to establish the parole board as a court is to be derived from it. The noble Lord Advocate appeared to accept that that would require subordinate legislation.
  There will be substantial questions about how the board operates, such as whether it will have rules that are to be published, by what form of subordinate legislation it will fall to be established and, perhaps more significantly, whether those who find themselves appearing before it will be eligible for legal aid. My reading of the legal aid scheme is that legal aid will not be available unless a specific amendment is made for that purpose.
  Establishing the parole board as a court, even for the limited purpose of clause 2, carries substantial implications, which will have to be investigated in Committee.
  Mr. James Wallace: If the board is constituted as a court, what appeal rights will flow to those who are not satisfied with its findings? Would an appeal be made automatically to the High Court of Justiciary in Edinburgh? This may be a good proposal, but I am sure that my hon. and learned Friend agrees that it needs to be fleshed out more.
  Mr. Campbell: If I may respectfully say so, my hon. Friend's suggestion about the High Court of Justiciary is inept. He has been away from practise at the Bar for some years. As an appeal would be probably of the nature of a civil appeal, it would go to the Court of Session. I suspect that the right to judicial review will be available under the normal rules of our law in Scotland, unless some express appeal provision is to be provided. My hon. Friend's intervention serves only to underline the uncertainty, which will have to be investigated in Committee.
  There was some controversy in the other place about clause 23. When the matter was raised, substantially by Lord Macaulay of Bragar, to whom reference has already been made, the noble Lord Fraser was at some pains to say that it was likely to he used only for a temporary purpose.
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  The clause provides that in certain circumstances an offender who should be detained in a young offenders' institution—a specialised institution designed to deal expressly with young offenders—might find himself or herself transferred to prison or a remand centre. I imagine that a remand centre has a less rigorous regime than a young offenders' institution, so in that respect the individual might not suffer any damage, but to transfer a person who should be in a young offenders' institution to a prison represents a substantial difference in the nature of custodial treatment. Therefore, we shall have to consider carefully the protection that is available to people who may find themselves dealt with in this way. It would be a tragedy, to put it perhaps over-strongly, if someone of that category were to find himself or herself transferred to a prison for some administrative purpose or administrative convenience. The issues involved are obviously significant.
  Clause 24 deals with what one might describe as governors' punishment. When that was being debated in the other place, the noble Lord Fraser said that changes in procedure were being contemplated as a result of an internal inquiry in the prison service. I hope that the results of the inquiry will be made available to us, because I have always felt some discomfort about the notion of governors' punishment. One is entitled to feel some discomfort about internal procedures, and I can say from such limited association as I have had with those who have been subject to it—always in a professional capacity—that there is great resentment about the nature of that punishment. I suppose that it is equivalent to service life where one takes the commanding officers' punishment, but many inmates resent the way in which it is administered.
  I voted against the War Crimes Bill every time it came before the House, for reasons which I think were clear at the time. There was an issue of principle, and some took one view of that principle and others took a different view. I agree with the view expressed by the Secretary of State that it sits uneasily in our legal system to have an amendment of the nature of clause 32(5). The House determined against the position that I took, but that seems to be no justification, however strongly people may have felt in the other place, for including an amendment relating to crime of a very narrow category. I understand the motives for doing so, but I do not believe that it is right to have evidential procedures that vary from crime to crime. Like the issue of removing the need for corroboration, it will always be possible to make a special case, and every time one does so the general principle will be weakened and diluted. Therefore, if the Government's proposal is to remove that provision from the Bill, I certainly will not oppose it.
  I should like to draw the Minister's attention to what appears to be an error in clauses 6 and 7. It may simply be a misprint, but clause 6(2) provides that
  "a child detained without limit of time under section 206 of the 1975 Act may, on the recommendation of the Parole Board made at any time, be released on licence by the Secretary of State."
  Section 206 of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1975 provides not for detention without limit of time but for detention for a period which shall be "specified in the sentence". It appears to me that section 206 has been inserted, not section 205. Section 205(2) of the principal Act refers to people being detained without limit of time. On the face of it, it appears that there has been a misprint in clause 6. If I am wrong—I have no doubt that the

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  Minister has available to him resources which will enable him to determine whether I am right or wrong—obviously I will withdraw my remarks, but it appears that there has been an error of some kind.
  We know, because the Secretary of State has told us and indeed careful perusal of the legislation makes it clear, that the right to what we must now call early release is to be available to children under 18 who may be convicted of murder or children who might not have been convicted of murder but who have been sentenced to a specified term under section 206 to which I have already referred. The Minister will know, because, along with a former Member, Mr. Dick Douglas, we had a very productive meeting at which we discussed the position of children convicted of murder. As a result of that meeting, the Minister was most constructive, and certain changes were made as a result of our representations on the way in which those children were cared for within the system.
  There may be cases in which not to allow the early release of a child necessarily ensures that that child will graduate through the penal system, first from the place to which the child was sent as a result of the Secretary of State's direction, then to the young offenders' institution and then to prison. Anyone who knows about penal institutions knows that there is a sense of graduation and that part of the difficulty in ensuring that reform is a central part of penal policy is the fact that the mere association with criminals and those of criminal propensity is enough quite often to inform people about the best and most effective ways of committing some crimes.
  It is often said that people learn how to open motor cars without keys because they happen to find themselves in a cell with someone else who has made a habit of doing that. The example that I used is perhaps not profound, but there is a more important principle to be found—that is, if it is possible to release a child without prejudice to the safety of the public before that individual has to go to the young offenders' institution or has to go to prison, that opportunity should be taken. To send the individual through the whole system is to expose him or her to the risk that he or she will acquire the institutionalisation which obviously goes with such a length of time spent in an institution and also an experience of crime by association with criminals which will make it difficult for him or her to adhere to the path of reform.
  The next matter is not raised by the Bill but I hope that the Committee will be able to consider it in the form of a new clause. The Bill mentions mandatory life sentences for certain crimes, and indeed for the crime of murder. It is time to look again at that provision in our law. It would be radical in Scotland, and to that extent, picking up the point of the hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow, we might put ourselves ahead of England and Wales. My professional experience has led me to believe that the range of culpability in the crime of murder is considerable. There are often cases in which the boundary between murder and what we in Scotland call culpable homicide is very narrow indeed, yet if a case falls on one side of that border, however narrowly, the trial judge has no discretion: he is obliged to send the person to prison for life. That point has arisen not yet controversially in
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  Scotland, but it has arisen in the context of the arguments principally in England and Wales about the defence of provocation.
  It is clear that there have been circumstances in which English juries have been unwilling to accept—for instance, with regard to domestic murders when a woman has killed her husband—that provocation can be established by a course of conduct over a long period. There has been strict adherence, even in the Judicial Committee of the House of Lords, to the notion that provocation necessarily involves some heat of the blood or a sudden response under the pressure of the provocative behaviour.
  There are grave difficulties in attempting to change the law of provocation because of a range of issues with which we need not concern ourselves today. However, if, instead of a mandatory life sentence, we had the ability or the discretion to impose a sentence of any duration, the difficulties presently caused by the controversy over provocation might be substantially reduced. In essence, the distinction between culpable homicide in Scotland, which is the equivalent of manslaughter in England and Wales, and murder should be withdrawn and we should have a single crime, the crime of homicide, and in respect of the crime of homicide the High Court of Justiciary, the supreme criminal court in Scotland, should have the right, as it already has, to sentence a person to any sentence that it considers fit.
  If that were so, the fine gradation which sometimes appears where life is taken as between culpable homicide and murder would be of no significance. Also, if that were the case, a judge could properly reflect in the sentence which he gave the extent to which he believed that a long course of conduct may have contributed to the act which culminated in a woman taking the life of her husband, for example. I hope that we will be able to discuss that issue in the form of a new clause in Committee. There was a Select Committee on this matter in the other place, and its deliberations might be of assistance.
  With a Bill of this kind, one's speech necessarily has to consist of taking pieces from here and there, because there is no central theme other than that the law of Scotland should, as far as possible, be brought up to date, that we should deal with those who offend and who are convicted in a way that is consistent with justice and that we should continue to find measures that will adequately protect the public. The Bill gives us all those opportunities. The precise detail of how those opportunities can be achieved is obviously a matter for the Committee, but I am pleased—delighted, even—that the Government have found time to bring forward a measure which will allow for detailed consideration of several matters which the sceptics around me believe are to be regarded only as a stocking filler at Christmas. Whether that is so I do not know, but the Bill offers an opportunity for detailed consideration of several important matters, the determination of which will be an important measure of how a civilised society deals with those who offend.
  7.17 pm
  Mr. Phil Gallie: I congratulate the hon. Member for Monklands, West (Mr. Clarke) on his promotion to the Opposition Front Bench. I also record my appreciation of his predecessor, the hon. Member for Glasgow, Garscadden (Mr. Dewar), for whom I have gained much respect in the short time that I have been in this place.

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  However, I am slightly disappointed. I had hoped that the hon. Member for Garscadden would serve in that position for many years to come. In any case, I welcome the hon. Member for Monklands, West. I am rather disappointed that no members of the Scottish National party have been present to consider such an important Bill. That is quite suprising.
  The hon. Member for Monklands, West criticised the Government for following the English. Not too long ago, there was great criticism by Scottish Opposition Members of the Government when Scotland led and England had to follow. The Opposition should make up their minds about what they really want. I believe in Scotland leading and I do not apologise for that.
  The Bill will be addressed line by line in Committee. It is a very detailed Bill and I want to set out a background that is very different from the comments which have been made so far in the Chamber. Because of other happenings in recent weeks, the media have lost sight of the Bill and its importance to the Scottish public. However, the public have not lost sight of the importance of law and order issues.
  The public at large have grave concerns about law and order. The incidence of violent crime is rising and I believe that the steps which have been taken so far have done little to address the situation. To a degree, the Bill has failed to address those points. When the public consider the details of the Bill, they will raise even greater concerns.
  I want to relate law and order matters to my constituency of Ayr. Over the past eight months, there have been four deaths as a result of violence in my constituency. They were horrific deaths. Three of those deaths involved young people who were going about lawful leisure pursuits. One middle-aged woman was murdered in her own home. That is frightening and it raises grave concerns in the mind of the public at large, particularly the elderly.
  Ayr is not alone. From what I am led to believe, in the past eight months of this year there were 68 murders in Strathclyde. Over a similar period in Northern Ireland, there were 54 murders and Northern Ireland is in a state of emergency.
  I must emphasise that the problems that we face in Ayr in relation to law and order are not unique. Ayr is not a no-go area. However, problems tend to arise late at night and at weekends. I am pleased to say that the new Conservative administration of Kyle and Carrick district council has attempted to address the situation in part, as far as opportunities allow, in tandem with the licence trade. There is a move towards a reduction in late licences.
  Dr. Godman: With regard to the growing incidence of violent crimes, many of which take place late at night and at weekends as the hon. Gentleman suggested, is it not absolutely stupid to reduce the ambulance cover in our constituencies in the west of Scotland at those times and at the weekends? Should we not have a comprehensive and adequate ambulance cover at such times?
  Mr. Gallie rose rose——
  Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Janet Fookes): Order. Before the hon. Member for Ayr (Mr. Gallie) continues, I hope that he will not be led down some byway far from the Bill.
  Mr. Gallie: I take your point, Madam Deputy Speaker. However, I believe that it would be in order for me to answer the hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman). I can tell the hon. Gentleman that I have had no complaints about a lack of ambulance services in my constituency. However, I have received complaints about a lack of a police presence and I will address that point shortly.
  Although a reduction in late licences may do something about the present situation and alleviate the problem a little, it will not solve the whole problem. We have a problem with youths who carry weapons. However, we cannot relate that to late licensing hours. Youths arm themselves when they are stone cold sober. They obtain weapons long before the pubs close. Indeed, they obtain them long before they go to the pubs. There is a problem there and——
  Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman has a more immediate problem and that is to relate what he is saying to the Bill.
  Mr. Gallie: With the greatest respect, Madam Deputy Speaker, I believe that the Bill addresses law and order matters which are of vital concern to my constituents who are suffering at the hands of people who are now in prison. The intention of the Bill is to reduce the number of people in prisons and to put people back on to the streets at an earlier stage. I believe that my points are very relevant to that issue.
  I want now to consider the number of police on the streets of Ayr and to emphasise the difficulties that they have in apprehending criminals and solving crimes. I point to the——
  Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I have tried to be gentle with the hon. Gentleman. However, I must make it clear to him that he must relate his remarks to the Second Reading of the Bill. This is not a general debate on law and order.
  Mr. Gallie: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I have some difficulty because I intended to cover the issues in a wider context. I understand that the Committee will take a line-by-line approach on such matters. Having said that, I am obliged to take note of the Chair's comments and I will attempt to confine myself to the Bill as closely as I can.
  In doing that, I must point to the reasons why people are imprisoned. Why are they there? They are in prison because they have committed misdemeanours, sinned against society and because their crimes have created problems in society.
  Mr. John McAllion: Why are you here?
  Mr. Gallie: I am here because the people of Ayr had the good sense to elect a Conservative Member who stood for the Union and I am grateful to them.
  I hope, Madam Deputy Speaker, that you will show me some indulgence if I address one aspect of the present situation—the crime of housebreaking. Given the way in which housebreaking is treated in the courts, I believe that there is a problem. Housebreaking is treated in a manner which does not recognise the full implications of its effect on society.
  Housebreaking can be a violation. It gets into the hearts and minds of the people against whom such deeds have

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  been perpetrated. There must surely be lengthy custodial sentences imposed on those who carry out such deeds. I believe that that does not happen at the moment. If the Bill were to be implemented, the situation for those who ultimately find their way into a custodial situation would be worsened because release would come sooner and the police would have greater problems.
  When I consider housebreaking, I think of the pain and anguish that is suffered principally, once again, by the elderly. I have sat in courts recently and witnessed the sentencing policy of various sheriffs. It is unusual that a custodial sentence is passed for housebreaking. I am led to believe that it takes about 14 convictions before someone is put behind prison walls. I feel that much consideration is given to the minds and hearts of prisoners before such a step is taken. It would be entirely wrong to reduce the sentences given to such people in an effort rationally to reduce the number of custodial sentences.
  I have to confess that in some matters I shall perhaps require your indulgence, Madam Deputy Speaker.
  Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Gentleman has already required it.
  Mr. Gallie: I beg your pardon, Madam Deputy Speaker.
  Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Gentleman should sit when I stand. I was making the passing observation that the hon. Gentleman has had his full ration of indulgence. He should now stick to the Bill or sit down.
  Mr. Gallie: As far as I am aware, it is possible to recommend to the Secretary of State and the Minister measures which could be added to the Bill. I suggest that my hon. Friend the Minister should consider the Conservative party manifesto pledge to give the prosecution the right of appeal against lenient sentences. Here we have an opportunity to inject that measure into a criminal proceedings Bill.
  What does the Bill offer? It offers a means of reducing time spent in prison by short-term, long-term and life prisoners. I agree that prisoners must have an incentive, but I suggest that when the public hear that in future 12-year sentences will be six-year sentences, questions will be asked and will have to be answered.
  I welcome the proposals in the Bill on supervision. Supervision is integral to the good management of the proposals that are on the table. However, I must ask: what is the purpose of imprisonment? We must not forget the punishment element. However, I also acknowledge the treatment aspect, which the hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell) highlighted. I do not demur, but the all-important point is that prisons exist to protect the public. That must be the first priority. Both actual and potential victims of crime must be the first priority.
  I noted the comments of the hon. Member for Monklands, West on the rights of prisoners. I remind my hon. Friend the Minister that the rights of the public at large must be his first consideration. There is cause for close scrutiny and amendment of the Bill in Committee. I look forward to participating in that. Part II of the Bill certainly has much to commend it. For example, it
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  increases police powers to a degree. I welcome the use of DNA tests and, above all, the changes in the procedures when children give evidence. They are of great value.
  I also welcome the reduction in the need for witnesses to appear in court. That in itself has much to offer. The changes involving live television transmissions must be supported and welcomed by all hon. Members. They can help the cause of justice. The measures in part II give me good reason to support the Second Reading.
  I welcome the comments by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on clause 32. He has suggested a vital amendment which I feel that the whole House will welcome.
  7.35 pm
  Mr. Ian Davidson: I rise as the new Member of Parliament for Glasgow, Govan to speak for the first time, having spent a period listening to and watching the behaviour of the House with some interest. I recognise that becoming a Member of Parliament is a considerable transition from being a big fish in a small pool in local goverment—even though that pool is perhaps too large for some who are presently engaged in filling bits of it in and breaking the rest up into puddles. It is a difficult transition. I hope that I shall be able to manage it with the success that many of my predecessors from local government, especially on this side of the House, have managed it.
  I should like to start by speaking briefly about my constituency. It has to be recognised that it is not homogeneous but is composed of a variety of villages and communities, each of which has its own local pride and characteristics and many of which fiercely argue for recognition in their own right. It is certainly my intention to ensure that I do that as their local Member of Parliament.
  My constituency ranges from the very worst of underfunded public sector housing to the very best that Scotland has to offer. I shall turn to that subject in a moment. Govan is a community with which many people have a connection. There are Govanites in all worlds, ranging from sport and entertainment to the professions and industry. All those worlds have Govanites in prominent positions, to the advantage of all concerned.
  I have met senior officers and Members of Parliament here who also have Govan connections. In particular, the hon. Member for Eastwood (Mr. Stewart) and my hon. Friend the Member for Renfrew, West and Inverclyde (Mr. Graham) were at one time residents of Govan constituency. I believe that the hon. Member for Eastwood lived for some considerable time in the leafy suburb of Dumbreck before realising that it was not part of the Eastwood constituency. His subsequent move outwards shows the clear link that Govan has with its hinterland. That is why, as part of the local government reorganisation, consideration should be given to the recreation of the burgh of Govan in an expanded form, initially perhaps to include Govan, Pollok and Eastwood. I am glad to see that the hon. Member for Eastwood is nodding. Already, G division of the police covers the area that I have mentioned. Indeed, the social work boundary is the same. So the recreation of the burgh is obviously worthy of consideration.
  My area has suffered considerably from economic restructuring. It is now in the process of lifting itself up,

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  reforming and regenerating work for its people. It has recently had such successes as the Govan garden festival, which was visited by many Members of Parliament. The Mod has been held in Govan and was a great success. Govan Shipbuilders has been reborn. Many hon. Members will he aware of the great work undertaken by the Govan Initiative—a partnership of the local authorities and the private sector, with co-operation, which I recognise, from central Government. The Initiative has done so much to create jobs in that community. Of course, many hon. Members will be aware of the activities and successes of Govan Rangers.
  Down the motorway a little distance is an airport which was built by the product of the merger of the burgh of Govan and Glasgow. That reorganisation resulted in a unity known as Glasgow. Therefore, the airport was named Glasgow airport. It seems relevant to me and to my constituents to say that, under the reorganisation, it should be renamed Govan airport, and the former small burghs within the Govan travel-to-work area should be drawn in as part of the greater Govan co-prosperity sphere. In that context, I am referring to Paisley and Renfrew, which would fit well into a new greater Govan area.
  Given that we are taking in the constituency of the Member for Eastwood, it would seem appropriate that Linwood, the home of the hon. Member for Renfrew, West and Inverclyde, whom I also mentioned, should be drawn into the area too.
  Having reorganised local government, I must make it clear that I have no further territorial demands at present and must move on to the history of the area. Many hon. Members here will be aware that at various times part or all of my constituency has been represented by nationalist Members, but it is not nearly as well known that in the not-too-distant past parts of it were represented by Conservative Members.
  Some parts of my constituency were also represented by Conservative councillors in the not-too-distant past, and it is difficult for me and for many of my constituents to understand why the Conservatives have not managed to put up a candidate in the regional council by-election, which is being held a week on Thursday, after similarly failing to put up a candidate in the previous council elections in the Moss Park ward of my constituency. That shows how low the Tories have sunk in that area. Having previously held sway there, they are no longer able to put up someone for office. I am not certain whether that is simply incompetence or whether they intend to seek anti-Labour votes for the nationalist candidate. It would not be the first time that there had been such a dialogue between those two parties to attack the Labour party. Each needs the other in a symbiotic relationship designed to oppose Labour. I condemn that cynical alliance, and I am sure that many of my colleagues do likewise.
  The previous Member for whom I have the greatest respect served the constituency for what seemed a considerable time but was, upon reflection, too short. His style and manner may have led some to underestimate a formidable intellect, one consistently applied in the interests of his constituents and his party. Now, as we all know, he has gone to work mainly abroad, where he continues to make a valuable contribution to the common good. I and his former constituents hold him in the highest possible regard. My only regret is that time does not allow me further to sing the praises of Bruce Milian.
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  My immediate predecessor also must command respect for his achievements. I have checked with the Library, which is unable to find any other Member in the recent past who played such a prominent role in three parties. I did not count Members who changed back to a party again or Liberals, with their various name changes. His is an achievement perhaps equalled but never surpassed. It was particularly noticeable that he was in the leadership of the Labour party when he left, went on to be the leader of the Scottish Labour party and was well on the way to being the leader of his third party before he left the House. He was a man of strong views. Even though the direction of those views changed from time to time, he none the less brought a fervour and passion of argument which was undiminished by the passage of time and which will be recognised by all here.
  My predecessor was fortunate in his choice of staff in the constituency who worked hard on the caseload which is such an important part of the work of a Member of Parliament. I and those that they help would not want this opportunity to pass without recognising publicly the sterling work that the staff of the previous Member undertook on behalf of people in the area. I think my predecessor made a contribution to Scottish politics which should not be underestimated or overlooked even by those who disagree with his content or style, or both.
  On a personal note, may I say how much I owe to my father Graham, my mother Betty, my sister Moira, my wife Morag and my son and daughter, Colin and Christine. They have given me invaluable support, and without it I do not believe that I would be here today. One person outside my family helped me a great deal, more than they know—a former teacher of Galashiels Academy, who was politically active in the Liberal party. She was a teacher of modern studies who demonstrated to me teaching at its best. Isabel Hilton was able to communicate constructively and positively to young minds—minds developing but barely formed—a wider vision of society and of what was possible which left a lasting impact on me and on many of my colleagues. I pay tribute to her for the way in which she was able to open up in an unpartisan manner the world of politics to many of her young charges.
  I am grateful to the Co-operative party for the support that it gave me before, during and after the election. On behalf of many new Members, I must say how grateful we are for the large and small kindnesses that we have received from the more experienced Members, who could perhaps be referred to in this context as old lags.
  I am conscious of the fact that if a new Member speaks for more than 10 minutes he might not get to speak again for the next 20 years. I have been a Member for relatively few months, and, like many new Members, I came here with high hopes only to have many of them dashed. Like many new Labour Members, I started with a sense of achievement, having won the first vote in which I participated, only to find that things went gradually downhill from then on, as we have managed to win only one vote since. That has convinced me of the need for a fairer voting system—one that allows us to win on a number of occasions. I hope to participate in such an experience later this week.
  I look forward to participating fully in further debates on a variety of issues that concern my constituents and my area, and I hope to carry my party's flag forward in a number of areas.

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  On the subject of the present debate, the solution to crime lies not with procedural alterations, worthy though some may be, but with economic recovery and an end to the hopelessness that drives so many of our people into crime. The Government have presided over an explosion in crime in the past few years, and I hope that they will soon propose to do something positive about it.
  7.48 pm
  Mr. Bill Walker rose——
  Madam Deputy Speaker: Mr. Walker.
  Dr. Godman: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I do not wish to introduce a carping note into tonight's civilised proceedings, but why have you called the hon. Gentleman? He has not been here for the past hour.
  Madam Deputy Speaker: That is a matter for the discretion of the Chair, and I have exercised it in that way.
  Mr. Walker: I was about to apologise to the House for the fact that I have been in and out of the Chamber during the debate. It is wrong to say that I have not been here for the past hour. I can tell exactly when I went out, because I went to one of the many interviews that I have been involved in due to today's circumstances.
  I am sorry that I did not hear all of his speech, but I congratulate the hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan, (Mr. Davidson). I suppose that I would really like to tell him how delighted I am to see him sitting there representing Govan. We enjoyed the outcome of his election, but, more importantly, the House looks forward to hearing what he has to say because he spoke with the conviction that comes from experience. I am sure that his contributions on Scottish and other matters will be welcomed by Members on both sides of the House.
  The Bill is important and, although it will not be controversial, it will nevertheless arouse disagreement and individuals will see some aspects of it differently. I have always taken the simple view of life: people who transgress should be made to repay their debt to society. However, it is difficult in any circumstances to get the balance right. Some people feel that often the sentences are too draconian, and others feel that they do not fit the crime.
  Much of the Bill deals with the subject of parole. There is always uncertainty when someone is released before completing his or her sentence, particularly if there is a further transgression. The fact that some people transgress—they always will—is no reason for saying that we should do away with the measure completely. The Government are trying to get the balance right.
  As the House knows, the Bill is the result of the Kincraig report. As the hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell) said—I notice that he has left the Chamber and I make no observation other than to say that hon. Members go in and out of the Chamber all the time—not all aspects of the Kincraig recommendations have been implemented. It would have been surprising if they had because Governments rarely implement everything contained in learned reports.
  I am particularly concerned about the amendments that were made in the other place regarding war criminals and the question of audio and video evidence and records. I
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  hope that when we examine the Bill in detail in Committee we shall be able to remove that large amendment so that the will of the House of Commons can be carried in the Scottish Committee. Although we in Scotland cherish and guard the fact that we have a separate legal system and way of bringing in laws, we think that some matters should be common throughout the United Kingdom. Such matters, in which the public at large are interested, are important. Although I have always doubted whether many prosecutions would be brought under the war crimes procedure, we are dealing with principles rather than with the practice of what is likely to happen.
  Dr. Godman: May I point out that the Secretary of State appears to intend to remove that part of the Bill on Report?
  Mr. Walker: If my right hon. Friend has said that he will do that, I accept that he will do it. One of the great advantages of being a Secretary of State is that one can get things done, but that does not stop me commenting on the matter. The hon. Gentleman will also want to comment and make observations on it when he has the opportunity as the debate continues.
  We shall probably spend most of our time debating the release of prisoners. An amendment was tabled in the other place about prisoners being released for health, exceptional and compassionate reasons. I was interested to see that Lord Fraser of Carmyllie said that the Government had
  "no intention of penalising a short-term prisoner released on compassionate grounds if, for example, he unexpectedly recovers his health."—[Official Report, House of Lords, 2 June 1992; Vol. 537, c. 870.]
  One thinks of people like Ernest Saunders, who has made a dramatic recovery from allegedly being nearly senile. He did terrible damage to the City of London and the Scotch whisky industry's interests. I happen to think that the Scotch whisky industry is in better shape today to face the problems of the world than it was before Ernest Saunders came on the scene. I was deeply involved in matters affecting the whisky takeovers. Nevertheless, we must be careful in examining the recovery in prisoners' health. That is the best example that I can give of someone released on health grounds because he was, according to medical evidence, in a state of senile dementia. I hope that I go through that situation many times in my life so that I may experience longevity and recover as Ernest Saunders has.
  I draw attention to that case because, when we have an opportunity in Committee to debate these matters in depth, I hope that we shall recognise that it is difficult to get the balance right. I understand the difficulties in attempting to get it right, but we must always take on board the public's response and reactions. The public will often respond to circumstances and then forget about them tomorrow because something else has come along, so one must not simply change the law to meet the fads of today. If we are to make fundamental changes in how we deal with prisoners, we must ensure that those changes will have the public's confidence. We should not make changes simply to be seen to be fashionable or faddy.
  I am interested in the fact that prisoners serving sentences of less than four years will be automatically released halfway through their sentence instead of at two

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  thirds, as at present. It is right that prisoners should be released only if they have been well behaved while in prison.
  I no longer have a prison in my constituency, but before the boundary changes of 1983 Perth prison was in my constituency. I was a regular visitor to Perth prison and it always struck me—[Interruption.] Does the hon. Member for Clydesdale (Mr. Hood) wish to intervene?
  Mr. Hood: No.
  Mr. Walker: I thought that the hon. Gentleman wanted to have his say.
  Like so many prisons of that period, Perth prison is a ghastly place. It is one of the most appalling places imaginable in which to lock up people. If there are benefits to prisoners and society by releasing people from their sentence earlier, I would support that. But I need to be convinced—I am always ready to be convinced—that the sentence passed by the court at the time of the offence is seen and accepted by the public as fitting the crime.
  The big problem is not the parole aspect, which is a proper, humane way to deal with people who have transgressed. The question is: are the courts passing sentences that the public believe fit the crime? Too often that is not the case and too many sentences are seen not to fit the crime. I am sure that every hon. Member has been approached when a television programme reports a ghastly occurrence involving a child who has been molested or killed and the sentence does not seem to fit the crime. I accept that in all cases all the evidence must be heard in order to understand why sentences are passed.
  One aspect that was long overdue was the change in the law made in England and Wales so that the Crown could appeal against a sentence that it thought to be too light. Such checks and balances are important. I hope that, in dealing with the Bill—which is, after all, entitled the Prisoners and Criminal Proceedings (Scotland) Bill—we shall have the opportunity in Committee to examine the way in which sentences are passed. It is not just a matter of ensuring that someone is released after he or she has served half of a sentence. The issue is whether a four-year sentence is such as to give the public confidence in our court procedures.
  I shall now consider the principle behind the parole system. It is right to have a system that allows for a selective approach to the release of long-term prisoners. That is essential. But equally, whatever system is introduced following the Bill's passage, the public must be convinced that the rules do not allow the release of prisoners who should be kept locked up.
  There are some prisoners who should never be allowed out, but they are not in the majority. One must recognise that they are in the minority. However, the important aspect of any parole system must be how one examines the candidates who are up for parole and considers in depth why they were incarcerated in the first place. In addition, a decision must be taken on whether those individuals have records of incarceration for offences that make it unlikely that they will ever return into society as responsible citizens.
  I suspect that most of the controversy in future will arise over discretionary life prisoners and periodic reviews. There is no doubt that some people should never be returned to society. There were such prisoners in Perth prison when I used to visit. I shall not name them as their
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  names are known to everyone. They have been incarcerated not only for crimes committed when they were in the public domain, but for crimes committed subsequently, including the capital crime of murder. Such individuals should never be released. Anyone who commits a capital crime while still a prisoner has completely negated the possibility of a civilised society considering him or her for release. We must consider that aspect, how we deal with it, and the issue of periodic reviews.
  From time to time almost all hon. Members receive correspondence from people who have been incarcerated. There are genuine cases in which mistakes have been made. We must recognise that we live in an imperfect world. The law, as with anything to do with man, is imperfect. Mistakes can happen, and we must bear that in mind when considering the release of prisoners and reviewing why they were locked up in the first place.
  I believe that it is easier to keep youngsters good than to make bad ones good. I have held that view all my adult life, which is why I have tried to make a small contribution to youth work and activities. I have been asked a number of times why I seem more interested in air cadets and boy scouts than offenders. The answer is that if one keeps good youngsters active and involved in organisations that turn them into good citizens, there is a better chance that they will grow up into good citizens.
  We spend far too much of our time looking at defaulters—to use an old military term—than good youngsters, of whom there are many more than there are bad ones. We should spend more time considering ways of keeping good youngsters good, which is important when considering young offenders. Young people often drift into offending because it is a peer activity. If someone grows up in circumstances in which anybody else's property is fair game, it is not surprising that he or she has difficulty in making judgments on the difference between right and wrong.
  One of the great mistakes that we have made in the post-war period is progressively to drift away from understanding the difference between right and wrong. That is probably due to trendy ideas in education and the breakdown of the normal family unit. We shall be faced with more and more problems that are the direct result of the breakdown of the family unit and the inadequacies of education. Youngsters are unable to cope with situations because they are affected by occurrences in school and at home.
  The Bill is not the sort of measure to excite people outside. The only people who will send us representations will be interested groups, not the public; that has been my experience so far. We shall not receive many brownie points from constituents for the time that we spend in Committee or on Second Reading. We shall be lucky to get any mention in the Scottish media for our activities this evening, although this is an important Bill covering wide aspects of discretion and the law.
  I was interested in the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Kincardine and Deeside (Mr. Kynoch) on transgressions against wildlife. We have adjoining constituencies: Kincardine and Deeside joins my constituency at Glen Shee, where my daughters were ski-ing at the weekend. I cannot remember when they last went ski-ing in October. My hon. Friend and I know that one of the great difficulties in large rural constituencies

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  involves people who transgress miles away from habitation. I look forward to his moving his amendments and the debates that we shall have on them in Committee.
  Although it is probably true that most offences occur in urban areas, we also have problems in rural areas, and it is time they were dealt with properly. The preamble to this Bill makes one realise that it ranges fairly widely, so there will be opportunities to table a number of amendments that should be in order——
  Mr. Hood: Stop filibustering.
  Mr. Walker: The hon. Gentleman should know that I table amendments to most Bills.
  Mr. Hood: It sounded to me as though the hon. Gentleman was filibustering. Indeed, I have lost track of the part of the Bill that he is discussing. That is all; it just crossed my mind.
  Mr. Walker: The hon. Gentleman suggested earlier that I had not been here for the debate. I listened carefully to my hon. Friend the Member for Kincardine and Deeside speaking about the problems of a lack of corroboration. I was merely saying that I shall welcome the chance in Committee to debate the amendments that my hon. Friend will propose to deal with that problem. That shows clearly that I have been here listening to some of the speeches.
  Because others wish to make speeches longer than mine, I am happy at this stage to sit down and await the continued debate in Committee—and I can say with certainty that I will be on that Committee.
  8.11 pm
  Mr. Jimmy Hood: I apologise to the House for missing the Front-Bench speeches. Unfortunately, I had to attend an important meeting about today's statement.
  I am pleased to see the Under-Secretary of State in his place—the hon. Member for Edinburgh, West (Lord James Douglas-Hamilton). I was grateful for his support some years ago when I dealt in a private Member's Bill with problems of under-age drinking.
  I welcome some of the measures in the Bill; I just hope that the Minister will not lose sight of the great need for legislation to protect our young kids who are getting hooked on booze. The evidence from the good work that the Minister helped me with two or three years ago points to the fact that matters are getting worse, not better. I hope that the Minister will reassure me later that the Government will move to deal with the real problems besetting our kids and affecting the communities in which they live. There is also a great deal of evidence to show that they are moving from alcohol abuse to drug abuse. Many of our young kids are being pushed down the road towards criminality, and that is alarming. It is time this place did something about it.
  Another omission from the Bill seems to be summed up by the need to improve our court proceedings for taking police evidence. Rightly, there is a great public demand for more police on our streets and in our housing estates to deter crime. I am alarmed by the amount of police time taken up unnecessarily in our courts. Police officers turn up in court and sit there all day, only to be told to go away and return another time. Those policemen are being paid
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  overtime—money which comes from budgets—or are getting time off; either way they are off the streets where they perform a much needed function. I hope that the Government will look into that at some future date. The police want a change; the community wants the system improved; and we as politicians want to provide our communities with a better police service. We are already trying to relieve the police of civilian jobs, and now we must take them out of the courts and get them on the streets where they can deter crime.
  I agreed with quite a lot of what the hon. Member for Tayside, North (Mr. Walker) said. That will come as a surprise to him: it certainly surprises me. I agree with his remarks about youth organisations—the Boy Scouts, the Boys Brigade and the Girl Guides all do tremendous work in our rural areas and in my constituency.
  Clause 17 refers to the revocation of licences. I should like to mention a constituent of mine as a way of highlighting this problem. The case has gone on for some time and has been compounded by recent events. In 1976 George Beattie, who lived in Carluke in my constituency, was convicted of murdering a young woman there. It was a dastardly crime against a woman in the prime of life. George Beattie was released from prison 13 years later on licence. A few months ago he attended an interview with a social worker where tempers became frayed and he is alleged to have kicked the social worker in the knee. I do not judge whether the allegation is true.
  The dilemma posed by the case is made all the more acute because there is compelling evidence that George Beattie did not commit the murder. There was a great deal of alarm when he was first convicted because even his defence lawyers, who deserve some criticism, thought that there was not case to answer. Tragically, therefore, their preparation for his defence was less than professional. They thought that the judge would throw the case out. He did not, and George Beattie was convicted by a majority verdict of the jury—despite the fact that there was no corroborating evidence, no forensic evidence, and no confessional evidence that he was guilty. All there was was a spot of blood on a handkerchief which was thought to be the blood of the victim but was proved subsequently not to be.
  George Beattie has been pulled back into prison and is serving a life sentence for a crime that he almost certainly did not commit. I accept that all the legislation in the world would not resolve the problem posed by such a case, but I raise it to increase public awareness of the problem. It is insensitive of me, perhaps, to mention the case because I know that it distresses the family of the victim of this terrible crime against a young woman, but two "Rough Justice" programmes on the incident in question have concluded that George Beattie could not have committed the crime.
  As a Member of Parliament I cannot sit back and do nothing when I see what I believe to be a grave injustice—regardless of whether George kicked the social worker a few months ago. As I see it, an innocent man is in gaol. Even more disturbing is the fact that if George Beattie is innocent, as he almost certainly is, the guilty person may be walking the streets of Carluke today. I understand that the Minister was formerly a member of the Bar, but I am not a lawyer; I was a humble miner. Tragically, Scottish law does not allow George Beattie another appeal. We must look at that and I hope that in the name of common

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  decency and justice the George Beattie case can be re-examined because regardless of legal procedures something has to be done.
  Clause 20 refers to parole boards. The hon. Member for Tayside, North said that he visited Perth prison. Hon. Members do not make a practice of such visits but I visited Cornton Vale women's prison in Stirling on Friday to see a young woman who in June 1993 will have been in prison for 10 years. She was convicted of a murder that she did not commit together with her father and brother following a fracas outside their home when a knife was drawn and a man died as a consequence. Four police officers in civilian clothes were chasing her young brother after an incident earlier that night. There was a barney during which there was a tragic death. The brother of about 18 admitted that he had used a knife. As a result one of the policemen died.
  The Bill mentions heeding the wishes of a judge. At the trial the judge ruled that the case could not be viewed as a police killing because when the fracas started the mother phoned the police on a 999 call which was registered, as are all such calls. Therefore, evidence was produced to show that the family thought they were being attacked by four people and had phoned the police for help. They were unaware that the four plain clothes men involved in the fracas with the family were police officers. That was a tragic incident for all concerned and certainly for the policeman who died. As a result a young man's life has been destroyed. The father and the young man's sister were convicted for what is known as act in part. The Minister will correct me if I have used the wrong phrase.
  The young woman that I visited on Friday is called Margaret Smith and she is married with children. The last time she sought parole it was denied for reasons known only to those who give guidance to the parole board. Any guidance not supporting her application for parole did not come from the prison because on Friday after seeing Margaret I spoke to the prison governor, Mr. Abernethy, and to Margaret's immediate governor, Mrs. Carroll, who said that from the time that the young woman entered prison she has been a model prisoner who has never given a minute's trouble. She was described as a most trustworthy prisoner. Every member of the prison staff said, "Why is this young woman still in prison?" Her father has been given a parole date of October 1993. I visited him four years ago to hear his view of the case and found that he was the governor's trustee. Everybody thought that he was a model prisoner and he was not seen as a real criminal. He was the victim of an unfortunate circumstance which ended up in the mincing machine of our court procedures.
  The hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell) made a relevant point about giving judges discretion on sentencing. In the case I am describing there was a majority verdict, but the judge had no alternative but to impose a life sentence on the father and the young woman who was caught up in the act. It is a great tragedy that so many lives have been ruined.
  I am not wishy-washy on crime—far from it. Prisons are there to contain people who threaten our community, but people should not be imprisoned unless they deserve it. My hon. Friend the Member for Monklands, West (Mr. Clarke), who is the shadow Secretary of State for Scotland, has conducted much work on mental health. A civilised society should not allow mentally ill people to be imprisoned. I am sure that none of us can put our hand on our heart and say that we support that. At the other end
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  of the scale a man was recently convicted in Lanark, a town in my constituency, for breaking into a house while wearing a ski mask, assaulting the man and woman in the house and robbing them, and hitting the man on the head with a hammer. Believe it or not, he was sentenced to three months' imprisonment. I intend to write to the Lord Advocate to seek an explanation because when I am asked how such things can happen I have to say that I do not know. How can one defend a system that sends a man to prison for three months for breaking into someone's house and assaulting him with a hammer?
  Mr. Gallie: I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman because I have had similar cases in my constituency. On a charge of murder a person was eventually sentenced to nine months and another received two years. People in Ayr do not understand how such sentences can be passed.
  Mr. Hood: I cannot comment on that case, but in the case that I have mentioned it is beyond my comprehension how such a sentence could have been imposed. People are now sent to prison for speeding in cars, but it seems that the sheriff in Lanark thinks that three months in prison is enough for a masked person who breaks into a house and hits the occupant over the head with a hammer. We must look at how we can balance the extremes on both sides. In a democracy, the penal system must be addressed to the need to punish and to deter, but also to the need to rehabilitate.
  Nobody's interest is served by Margaret Smith, whom I visited on Friday, being kept for one minute longer in prison and she should be released, as should her father. As for her brother, who was caught up in the fracas, I am told that the average term of imprisonment for those given a life sentence for murder is 10 to 12 years, so his case should be looked at seriously as well.
  During my discussions on Friday, another point came to my notice—perhaps the Minister would like to answer this because I cannot. I am told—I am sure that the Minister will correct me if it is not the case—that a young woman serving a life sentence in Scotland serves, on average, two years longer than a man. Furthermore, C-category lifers are given certain privileges such as visits and permission to work outside the prison. However, a D-category woman prisoner is not allowed to work outside the prison. When I checked the privileges given to C and D-category prisoners—I hope that I am not being too technical—I found that D-category prisoners are allowed to work outside prison only if they have been given a date for their release on parole. This policy has been implemented in Cornton Vale prison where this young woman is imprisoned. However, in men's prisons, C-category lifers are working outside the prisons in preparation for their release.
  If the Minister cannot pursue that point tonight, perhaps he will write to me. I am sure that his first response will be to say that it does not happen and that the judicial system administers the same punishments for men as for women but it is strange if the statistics prove that women given life sentences serve longer sentences than men. I hope that the Minister can give me some information on that.
  The Bill contains a number of good measures—for example, that on children giving evidence. I am sure that that is not a party political issue. I have spoken about the need to deter through the law and the administration of the law. I meet my local police officers often, and I say this

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  for no other reason than that I firmly believe it. I am fortunate in that my chief superintendent is the best that one can get and I do not say that because he has moved in to live in my little rural village and is now my neighbour. I have good relations with the police, and I believe that we have different functions in the community. He polices the community and I represent it.
  The problems created within our communities can be solved only there. There is no one solution to problems. In solving crime in the community, the police have their functions and the local authority has its functions. The community also has a function—to give assistance to the agencies within it as they seek solutions. That has always been my approach to dealing with the community. A penal system should be created, formed, managed and administered to deter, to punish and to rehabilitate. It must give security to the community by taking crime out rather than by creating crime and thereby putting people in prison.
  8.34 pm
  Dr. Norman A. Godman: I welcome this long-overdue Bill, although with some reservations because it has some quite remarkable elements. The hon. Member for Tayside, North (Mr. Walker), who, as he is not here, is presumably involved in yet another interview, said that the Bill would elicit little interest outside the House. He is wrong. The Bill is important, so important that the Government should seek, by way of Standing Order No. 91, to commit it to a Special Standing Committee, which would allow the Committee to take evidence. Among other things, the Standing Order says:
  "A special standing committee to which a bill has been committed shall have power, during a period not exceeding 28 days … from the committal of the bill, to send for persons, papers and records, and, for this purpose, to hold up to four morning sittings of not more than three hours each."
  The Bill warrants such a Special Standing Committee and I hope that the Secretary of State and the Minister will consider that request sympathetically.
  Although I was unsympathietic to what the hon. Member for Tayside, North had to say, I had a great deal of sympathy for some of the remarks made by the hon. Member for Ayr (Mr. Kynoch). My constituency has also suffered recently from a dismal increase in the incidence of violent crime. On this very day, in the High Court in Glasgow, a case involving the murder of a constituent has been set in motion. About 119 constituents of mine will have to give evidence during that trial, which is predicted to last three weeks.
  The incidence of violent crime and street crime in my constituency will be diminished only by the presence of more police officers on the streets. I should like to see Chief Superintendent Laurence Macintyre and his fine force of men and women being assisted by the recruitment of at least 20 to 25 uniformed police officers, who should be put on to the streets of Greenock and Port Glasgow. I am convinced that, if that could be achieved, their presence would lead to a diminution in the incidence of violent crime.
  I have a couple of comments to make about visiting committees. One object of the Bill is to manage, in a sensible and civilised way, the tensions that arise in our
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  prisons. Some of the measures in part I will reduce those tensions. I was not happy with the response of the Secretary of State to my comments about the establishment of a visiting committee in Her Majesty's Prison, Greenock.
  I have here a letter from Lord Fraser of Carmyllie, dated 29 September, which he sent in response to a letter from me about a recent visit that I made to Greenock prison. In my letter, I referred to the report of Her Majesty's chief inspector following his examination of Greenock prison, in which he had a number of criticisms to make of that establishment. Lord Fraser said:
  "I accept the point you make about the lack of a Visiting Committee appointed specifically to HM Prison Greenock. Ian Lang gave an undertaking in his reply to the Chief Inspector's report (copy attached) that an amendment to the Prison Rules designating Greenock as a prison in its own right, with its own Visiting Committee, will be promulgated when the current Prisoners and Criminal Proceedings (Scotland) Bill becomes law."
  I want to see a visiting committee set up in Greenock at the earliest date possible. The Minister knows, as does anyone with experience of prisons, that the members of visiting committees play a vital role in grievance procedures within such establishments. At present, two overworked members of the Barlinnie committee visit Greenock prison. I think that too great a burden has been placed upon them.
  In Greenock prison there is a good relationship between staff and prisoners and it is essential that harmonious relations are maintained. That can be helped to a considerable extent by the setting up of a visiting committee at the earliest possible moment.
  An indirect object of the Bill appears to be improving relations between a prison and the community within which it is located. I refer again to the letter of Lord Fraser of Carmyllie and his response to my demand that there should be a creche established in the visiting area of Greenock prison. Lord Fraser wrote:
  "Due to lack of space it is, unfortunately, not feasible to provide creche facilities in the visitors' reception area itself. However, a creche has now been opened in a room in the prisoner's visiting area, supervised by a local community on a voluntary basis."
  I welcome this development by the local community in Greenock, but the prison department has much more to do at the prison, including working on relations between the prison and the local community.
  The Minister and I have engaged in some correspondence over these matters, and I remind him that prisons and local communities must maintain harmonious relations. I am pleased to say that that is the case at Greenock, except for my constituents who live in Nimmo street. I note from the Minister's response that that rings a bell with him. My constituents in Nimmo street—Mr. William Marshall at No. 10 and all his neighbours—live in the shadow of the prison. They have made the reasonable request that that side of the prison's perimeter be illuminated at night. Lord Fraser refers to that in his letter but it would seem that the prison department has been a little less than efficient in this instance.
  I make no criticism of Governor Gunn and his staff, who are doing an excellent job in difficult circumstances, but the lives of prisoners and perhaps more importantly, in some respects, those of the staff could be made better if the prison department were to get its collective finger out.
  The Bill contains some useful and sensible measures in respect of the parole system. I speak with some experience—I think that the Minister knows this—because I used to

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  be a member of the local review committee at Saughton. I have seen the parole system working as a member of a review committee.
  I seek an assurance from the Minister that the measures in the Bill will not place additional burdens upon those hard-working people who are members of the parole board. They have a massive amount of work to do each year in carrying out their tasks and I hope that their work will not be increased by any of the measures in the Bill.
  If the Minister has sufficient time—I promise that I shall not speak for too long—I hope that he will add to the comments made by the Secretary of State about clause 21 and the parole advisers. The right hon. Gentleman was a little vague about those who would be taking up this extremely important role. Surely we have a right to know who will carry out the role as specified in the clause.
  The part of the Bill that I welcome most of all—this will not surprise the Minister—is set out in clauses 33 to 35. It seems that child care law reform of this sort in Scotland, England and Wales proceeds by way of a leap-frogging system. I have complained in the House in the recent past that Scots law has begun to lag behind English law in terms of certain provisions of the Criminal Justice Act 1988. However, to be fair minded to those who drafted the Bill, it appears—I am not a legal expert—that clauses 33 to 35 will give much greater protection to child witnesses in Scotland than the recent legislation that has been introduced in England.
  I was struck by what John Spencer, reader in common law at Cambridge university, wrote in a recent edition of Archbold News, issue 17. When commenting upon developments in England and Wales and those in Scotland, he finished his article by saying:
  "Meanwhile the Government, which stubbornly resisted allowing the whole of a child's evidence to be taken pre-trial in England, has just introduced a Bill for Scotland that will enable this to be done on the other side of the River Tweed. Is this a controlled experiment in comparative law, one wonders? Or another case of the right hand not knowing what the left is doing?"
  Despite John Spencer's mildly sardonic comment, it is an important development. I wish to ask the Minister some questions, but before doing so I think that tribute should be paid to the members of the Scottish Law Commission, who have played an important role in these developments. We should all be grateful to Sheriff McPhail and his colleagues for their report, which largely, I think, has provided a genesis for clauses 33 to 35.
  I have some reservations about certain of the details that appear in clauses 33 to 35. As I suspect that I shall be a member of the Standing Committee that examines the Bill, I shall have the opportunity of taking them up with the Minister. Clause 33(3) refers to a commissioner who will be an advocate or a solicitor. He or she will be appointed by the court to take the evidence of a child. If Lord Hope's recommendation is met, I presume that the commissioner will take the evidence in informal surroundings. Presumably those concerned will remove their wigs and gowns and everyone will sit round a table in as informal a way as is possible.
  Clause 33(3) provides:
  "An accused shall not, except by leave of the commissioner, be present in the room where such proceedings arc taking place but shall be entitled by such means as seem suitable to the commissioner to watch and hear the proceedings."
  The words
  "except by leave of the commissioner"
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  should be deleted. A child giving evidence should not have to be in the same room as the accused, although I accept that the accused has every right, under common justice, to observe the proceedings.
  If the accused were to be physically present, that would make nonsense of clause 34, which authorises the use of a screen. The Law Commission, in the form of Michael Clancy's brief, has certain reservations about the use of screens. Will the Minister confirm that it will be a one-way screen, so that the accused will be able to see the child, but that the victim will not have a view of his or her alleged attacker?
  That is particularly important given the architectural style of some modern sheriff courts, such as that in Glasgow, where a child might have to give evidence within 10 ft of the accused. The child must be given maximum protection, while at the same time ensuring that the interests of the accused are safeguarded.
  I have a number of reservations about clauses 33 to 35, but they signal a remarkable transformation in child care law reform in cases of sexual or violent child abuse or those involving appalling neglect. They will give children the protection that they so rightly deserve.
  In some circumstances the accused may be the father Or the older brother or sister. I want to see added to the Bill—or to a Law Reform (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Scotland) Bill—a measure allowing for the removal of the accused from the family home where sexual or physical abuse is involved. At present, not only the victim but his or her brothers and sisters may be removed by social workers. It would be better if the person accused of appalling offences should have to leave instead. I crave the indulgence of the Chair, in that I may be technically out of order in seeking to introduce such an amendment.
  The Bill offers a significant development in child care law, and for that reason only I give it a sincere welcome.
  8.54 pm
  Mr. John McAllion: Following the Conservatives' comprehensive defeat in Scotland in the general election, they promised a so-called stocktaking exercise in a bid to devise new ways of improving Scotland's future government. Six months later, the Government have produced nothing new—only a rehash of old ideas, including the concept of a separate legal system.
  It is dishonest to argue that Scotland has a separate legal system when it is controlled by a United Kingdom Parliament comprising only 72 Members of Parliament representing Scottish constituencies and 579 outwith Scotland. If it is argued that Scotland should have different laws, a different legal system, and different methods for dealing with crime, it should also have its own legislature.
  The Bill should have been introduced in a Scottish Parliament established after the general election in which 75 per cent. of Scottish voters asked for one. It reflects badly on the Government that the House is tonight debating such a Bill, because it is not the business of a United Kingdom House of Commons to legislate for Scotland's separate legal system. That should be done by a Scottish Parliament, meeting in Edinburgh.
  The Secretary of State for Scotland said that the Bill was based on the Kincraig report and referred to its specialised nature. However, as the hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell) said, there is

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  a wider public interest in a debate that concerns the treatment of offenders and the operation of the criminal justice system in Scottish society.
  Although the Bill appears wide-ranging at first glance—covering as it does young offenders, penalties for prison offenders, criminal investigations, court proceedings and the nature of evidence—its most striking and disappointing feature is the narrowness of its scope. Even the Secretary of State mentioned that.
  The Bill is introduced at a time when Scotland's criminal justice system has never been held in lower esteem or been in greater need of wide-ranging reform. Most right hon. and hon. Members have a horror story to tell about the spread of disorder through Scottish society, which has become badly divided by the unemployment, poverty and social injustice that are the fruits of 14 years of Tory government. We also have our horror stories to tell about the way in which the Scottish criminal justice system is failing to deal with the problems created by those social divisions.
  I feel that we should ask whether the Bill is an adequate reaction to the Government's current position in Scotland. A centre-page spread in today's Scottish Daily Record gives details of 24 hours of crime in Scotland. It refers to a
  "wave of crime now sweeping the country",
  and to "open season" having been declared on
  "innocent people who just want to get on with their lives".
  It lists a series of offences—73 assaults, 187 house break-ins and 248 thefts from cars—that took place in Scotland in just 24 hours.
  Is the Government's response adequate, given the crime wave that has hit Scotland in recent years? Rather than tinkering with the system, the Government should present a Bill to tackle the crime wave that has left so many ordinary Scots living in fear following the many years for which the Minister has been responsible for law and order in their country. The Minister nods: I am sure that he feels deeply embarrassed about his Government's failure to tackle those problems.
  I should add that the Scottish Daily Record is not alone in complaining about the current position. I have letters from the Tayside police drawing attention to the increase in crime and lawlessness and expressing special concern about offences committed by those under 16.
  It is all very well for the Government to present a Bill dealing with young offenders. That means people in the 16 to 21 age group. Many serious offences are now being committed in Scotland by people below the age of 16, who do not come within the scope of the Bill. That, surely, is a glaring gap in the Government's approach. The police refer to "anti-social behaviour" on the part of under-16s, but "anti-social behaviour" is often serious criminal behaviour. I refer to assaults on individuals, fire-raising, housebreaking, theft and even attacks on policemen.
  Surely it is not an adequate response simply to ignore those offences, but at present that is what the Scottish criminal system does. Currently offenders under 16 are dealt with by the children's panels—which have no powers to send them away to secure accommodation—putting them on remand, in young offenders' institutions or in prisons. They no longer even have the option of sending such offenders to list D schools: because of the
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  Government's public expenditure cuts, list D schools have been closed across Scotland. Local authorities now cannot afford to send children away to secure accommodation.
  Nowadays, offenders under 16 are immediately returned to the community. Police representatives tell Members of Parliament that many youngsters regard themselves as flameproof—untouchable by the law and order system. The police have shown me long lists of offences committed by 14 and 15-year-olds, who have been charged again and again, taken before a children's panel, warned and put straight back into the community. They have been sent to children's homes which are not secure accommodation and cannot restrain them; then they are back on the streets, committing the same crimes again, utterly untouched by the system of law and order. What are the Government doing about that? Absolutely nothing.
  The Bill could have tackled the problem. The Government could have asked, "What shall we do with this group of offenders in Scottish society?" But the Government have decided to do absolutely nothing—and that is a black disgrace, both to the Minister and to the Secretary of State. They claim to care about law and order, and about the wave of crime that is sweeping Scotland. In reality, however, they will not lift a finger, because to lift a finger would be to incur public expenditure.
  In the past week, we have learnt that the Government have no energy policy and no economic policy. Tonight, we have learnt that they have no policy to tackle law and order on the streets of Scotland. That is a glaring omission from the Bill. The remainder of its contents may be worthy in their own way, but until the Government begin to tackle the real problems of law and order in Scottish society they will remain condemned by the people who are suffering from those problems, and who receive no assistance whatever from the Government.
  9.3 pm
  Mr. John McFall: It is a privilege for me to address the House from the Front Bench.
  First, let me thank the Secretary of State for the kind remarks that he made at the beginning of the debate. It is typical of him to make such kind personal remarks. In the same vein, I thank the Minister, who has already approached me informally to give me the opportunity to receive briefings on this technical Bill: I appreciate that very much. Having said that, however, let me add that there are deep political divisions between us, and I expect them to come to the fore during our debate on the Bill.
  The hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell) said that this was not a lawyer's Bill. I am thankful for that, as I am not a lawyer but a mere schoolteacher, and the prospect of dealing with a highly technical legal Bill fills me with trepidation. The hon. and learned Gentleman added, however, that there was a public interest in the Bill, and I agree with that. The public interest aspect is paramount.
  I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Davidson) on his witty maiden speech. He grabbed the attention of everyone, particularly when he mentioned Govan Rangers. By doing so he aroused passionate feelings among some Back Benchers. My hon. Friend said that he was a big fish in a small pond there, but I am sure that here he will use the same skills as he used in Strathclyde regional council and that he will

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  show the same sensitivity towards education and other issues as he did in Strathclyde. [Laughter.] I do not know what hon. Members arc laughing at.
  This is a Government of many shades. If they were to act with the same alacrity on prison reform as they acted last week when they took their instant and unilateral decision to condemn 30,000 miners and tens of thousands of others in related industries to the dole queue, the criminal justice system in Scotland would be in a much healthier state. Sadly, however, the Government seem to adopt only negative and destructive policies at top speed. Those that demand careful consideration and attention are left on the back burner. That certainly applies to the Bill, the main part of which relates to the implementation of the Kincraig committee's report on parole and related issues. I shall concentrate on the part I aspect. I welcome the part II aspect, as other hon. Members have done tonight, but part I of the Bill on parole is the main part.
  I pay tribute to Lord Kincraig and his committee for the sensitive and constructive way in which they approached their remit. If only the Government had adopted the same approach. The committee was established in December 1987 and published its report in March 1989. To date, no debate has taken place on the report. In its 1991 annual report the Parole Board for Scotland said that it was extremely disappointed that Lord Kincraig's proposals had failed to gain a place in the Government's legislative programme for 1991–92 and that delays in implementing the changes to the system in Scotland had led in their opinion
  "to uncertainties and loss of faith among prisoners and staff."
  Meanwhile, Scotland is becoming more and more out of line with what is happening in England and Wales. We are creating anomalies between the English and the Scottish jurisdictions.
  The new English provision came into effect on 1 October 1992. We are still waiting for ours. Kincraig points to this in paragraph 2.32 where it says that it is clear that since 1973 the parole systems north and south have diverged, reflected in the current annual success rates for parole applications. As my hon. Friend the Member for Monklands, West (Mr. Clarke) said earlier, 57.3 per cent. of eligible prisoners in England and Wales were granted parole, while the equivalent figure for Scotland was 28.4 per cent. The Kincraig committee said that there was no explanation as to why this should be so, given that the British crime survey had shown that there are no great differences in the rates or types of crime between the two jurisdictions.
  I should like to look at the Bill in its true context—first, in the specific context of Scotland and the fact that the Bill has emerged from a period in the 1980s of unprecedented upheaval in the Scottish prison system. The mid-1980s saw a series of prison demonstrations and protests, hostage-taking incidents, dirty protests, the destruction of prison property, food protests and overcrowding in particular wings of individual prisons. Notwithstanding last year's Scottish Office proposals for reforming the system in documents such as "Opportunity and Responsibility", it is arguable that the situation in some Scottish prisons remains extremely volatile. How far the proposals in the Bill will affect that is debatable, particularly if the prison population begins to rise again, as the latest figures appear to suggest.
  According to an answer to a parliamentary question, the average daily prison population on 3 July 1992 had
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  climbed to 5,294. It is important to note that Scotland's prison population has been consistently higher, in terms of rate of detention per 100,000 of the country's population, compared with the vast majority of other Council of Europe countries. Taken as a whole, the United Kingdom was first in the table, well ahead of countries such as Greece, Portugal, Spain, France and Denmark. Council of Europe figures for 1987 show that Scotland was first in a league table of 17 countries, with 767.7 per 100,000 people, compared with 350.7 for the United Kingdom. Even allowing for the problems of definition between different states, in a comparative sense Scotland's sentencing policies in the 1980s appeared to be problematic.
  The second dimension of the Bill is the Government's attempts to deal with the prison crisis in the United Kingdom in general. The process began with the publication in July 1988 of the Green Paper, "Punishment, Custody and Community", and culminated in the implementation of the Criminal Justice Act 1991 in England and Wales in October 1992. A number of the Scottish Bill's provisions follow on from those already implemented in England and Wales and are linked to an attempt to provide a twin-track approach to sentencing. That approach attempts to reduce the use of custody for less serious offenders while promoting longer sentences for serious crimes. It is important to note, however, that the trend towards longer sentences had been apparent before the implementation of the Bill. The number of prisoners, for example, serving life under section 205 increased from 269 in 1989 to 386 in 1990, while the figures for those serving three years or more increased from 1,176 to 1,211.
  There will be little opposition to the general principle of the Bill, but Labour Members regret that the opportunity to address the wider issues of prison legislation and prisoners' rights has not been seized. We are mindful that the Prisons (Scotland) Act 1989 consolidates earlier legislation, but what is needed is a new prisons Act rather than the present piecemeal arrangements for prison legislation.
  Although the Bill has a narrow remit from Kincraig's recommendations on parole, we cannot escape the fact that it has wider implications, the first of which is resources. The foreword to the Bill says that its net financial effect will be broadly neutral. That is a stab in the dark. The Government assume that because an increased number of prisoners will be included in the new parole arrangements the prison population will be lower and therefore that savings can be made. But for many offenders, the effective length of sentence will increase as a result of parole considerations from about one third to about half of their sentence. Offenders will now be liable to serve the full term of their sentence if reconvicted for an offence committed before the expiry of that full term. That could lead to a substantial increase in the prison population. The sentencers—the judges and sheriffs—are therefore the key to the impact that the Bill will have in practice. It is essential that the sentencers realise the meaning of many of the sentences that they impose and that a significant number of sentences will become much longer than they are at present.
  The danger of implementation of the Bill is that it will be followed by a substantial increase in the prison population. So much is still left to the discretion of the sentencers that there is nothing to stop sheriffs and judges

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  from scaling up sentences from their present level. That was mentioned by my noble Friend Lord Macaulay of Bragar in the other place.
  Clause 16 is the major negative of the Bill. It deals with prisoners who are released on licence who may reoffend. Its inclusion could have the opposite effect of what the Government intended by increasing the prison population. If a prisoner is committed for a minor offence, on release he is tried not only for the minor offence but in addition has to serve the remainder of the offence that he or she was originally serving. For a minor offence, that person could be referred to a higher court, a sheriff court or even the High Court.
  It should be borne in mind that in Scotland 99.9 per cent. of offences can be punished by imprisonment. Let us take an example. An offender who is serving a long prison sentence is out on licence and commits a breach of the peace. Normally, there would be a £30 fine, say, in a district court, but because he is out on licence he could be referred by the magistrate to the sheriff court or to the High Court. That could result in him going back to prison for four or five years or even longer as a result of that minor offence. The Bill presently allows that possibility. That would most certainly have the consequence of increasing the prison population.
  We must also remember the power given to the local police. As hon. Members have said, it is not difficult for the police to charge an individual with a minor offence, but for a prisoner out on licence it could have immense consequences because of the court's discretion as a result of the Bill. It is a matter of public interest, certainly, but should the consequences be so dramatic for minor offences? Should not the Government look again at clause 16 and, instead of relating it to all offences, relate it only to minor offences? If clause 16 related to minor offences, the court could look at them in isolation.
  Resources and local authorities have also been mentioned. Local authorities have to supervise prisoners who are out on licence—not only those who are released at the half-way stage but those who are eligible for parole at the half-way stage and automatically released at the two-thirds stage. They will be licensed but not unconditionally. Previously, people volunteered for parole. They got something back; there was a quid pro quo. Now long-term offenders who are released at the two-thirds stage will have no quid pro quo and there will be enormous social work implications with people on licence who are reluctant. This will result in major changes for social workers.
  What is the Government's estimate of the number of people who are recalled for further offences? Have the Government made any projections on that matter? We understand that the Government's intention is to abolish the statutory after care for 16 to 20-year-olds. Presently, for 16 to 18-month sentences, that care lasts six months. For those with sentences longer than 18 months it lasts for 12 months. On 31 December 1991, Strathclyde regional council had 299 after care cases. As a rule of thumb, we can double that for Scotland and thereby find that we have fewer than 600 after care cases. That will not be much of a saving as there will be more long-term prisoners who are
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  released on licence. There will be greater pressure on local authority budgets which, in the next week or two, will be under enormous pressure.
  Still on the subject of finance, many social work departments would concede that their ability to provide adequate supervision and adequate after care is limited. To add the parole requirements contained in the Bill without providing funds for increased staffing levels would make a mockery of implementation. Without a commitment to introducing and financing community care provision, it is unlikely that offenders will be high on the political agenda, especially given that offenders are not a designated group under the community care provisions.
  What is the present state of public expenditure and what are its implications for individuals recently released from prison? Last week, I received a letter from a constituent, a woman who was helping a teenager who had just come out of prison. The teenager applied to the DSS for a clothing grant but was refused. The boy in question had just finished a nine-month sentence for robbery. My constituent said:
  "This is not an isolated case, indeed according to the official we spoke with, most prisoners are now considered low priority."
  The young boy got nothing extra with his grant. My constituent pointed out that
  "This does nothing to stop the reoffending process which we see so often in our community."
  She continued that
  "the employment situation in this particular area is very low and jobs for ex-offenders practically non-existent."
  Like most offenders, that boy risks turning to crime in order to clothe himself. My constituent has asked me to look at that case carefully and I will do that. However, I remind the Minister of the Government's policies over the past 13 years. They have increased deprivation in our communities. It is undeniable that there is a direct link between levels of deprivation and levels of imprisonment. Opposition Members see that day in and day out.
  Another aspect that the Bill does not deal with is the particular experiences of women in prison. Clause 14 relates to "Supervised release orders." That provision is intended "to protect the public." That is a dominant criterion for the utilisation of supervised release orders. However, where does that leave women in prison? The overwhelming majority of women are not dangerous and the public do not need protection from them. A whole range of literature shows that women prisoners are different in terms of their crimes and experiences and perhaps need a different response, particularly in the establishment of alternatives to custody.
  Sadly, the question of alternatives to custody is not considered in the Bill. Again, we are behind England and Wales where one of the central debates in criminal justice legislation has been alternatives to custody. For example, the Criminal Justice Act 1991 introduced radical alternatives and improvements and restrictions in sentences. One restriction is for sentencers to consider the nature of the offence before them. That does not happen in Scotland. Someone in Scotland might still go to prison for a substantial period for stealing a bottle of whisky because the fact that that person has stolen on a number of occasions in the past is taken into account. The criminal justice system in England has removed that and I suggest that the Minister should consider that aspect in relation to Scotland.

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  Clause 24 allows governors to take remission from a remand prisoner
  "conditionally on his eventually becoming such a prisoner".
  That is very unfair and is inconsistent. Remission may be taken off even before a sentence is begun. The Bill still allows that to happen and the Minister should also consider that point.
  Clause 20(4)(c) and clause 20(5) are also matters of concern. They allow the Secretary of State to give direction to the parole board about what it should take into account when considering cases and how it should discharge its functions. It appears—and this is all I would say at the moment—that that provides an avenue for the possibility of the exercise of political influence over the board such as the overnight imposition of a new parole policy undertaken by the then Secretary of State, Mr. George Younger, in 1984. That imposition has been roundly condemned and was considered to be a contributory factor to the prison riots in the 1980s. It is very important that the Minister considers clause 20 again.
  Clause 20 gives cause for concern if one is suspicious about such matters. However, should we be suspicious about the Government today when they flag up perhaps a few days in advance all the mistakes that they are going to make anyway? However, the Minister should reflect on the implications of clause 20.
  In respect of clause 20(4), the Law Society notes with concern that children who are convicted under section 206 of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1975 are excluded from the present practice of granting remission to prisoners serving a determinate sentence. It is unjust for a person under the age of 16 to be denied remission for any crime attracting a custodial sentence purely on the basis of age.
  That unfairness was highlighted in a recent High Court trial in Glasgow which concluded in identical sentences of custody for adults and a 15-year-old juvenile. The adults were subsequently released on remission, but the juvenile was required to serve the sentence in full. The Government should accept that if automatic remission is available it should also apply to juveniles. Presently the position of juveniles is anomalous.
  As hon. Members have said, clause 1 relates to life sentence prisoners. The Bill distinguishes between mandatory and discretionary life sentences. That procedure has been the subject of widespread criticism because of its secrecy, discretionary nature and the detrimental effect that such mandatory sentences have on prisoners and their families. Indeed, the Kincraig committee made several criticisms of the current practices. The committee was drawn to the argument that life should be the maximum sentence, rather than the mandatory penalty for murder. That argument was also supported in amendments tabled by their Lordships in another place and by the Law Lords in their House of Lords Select Committee report on murder and life imprisonment. Their recommendations would have brought release procedures for lifers into line with several European Court judgments. The Government opposed the amendments, despite being defeated by a wide margin in the House of Lords. I ask the Minister to think again about those matters.
  What about the merits of this Bill? I would describe it as a hesitant step forward. The main question that we should address is whether the Scottish criminal justice system imprisons too many people unnecessarily and for
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  too long. On the evidence in the league tables, I suggest that, compared with the rest of Europe, we do indeed imprison too many people unnecessarily and for too long.
  The wider implications and their impact on the Bill are even more important. Rather than reducing the prison population, the arrangements set down in the Bill could increase it. I have already mentioned the resources resulting from the implications of the Bill. They are extremely important. The impact of the Bill will not be neutral, so extra money is needed. The Government cannot improve the criminal justice system in Scotland without providing extra money. If the Government care about the people in prison, they must examine those resources. Education is an example which is dear to my heart. The estimates for teachers' salaries were £1.02 million for 1990–91 and £1.03 million for 1991–92. We do not yet have a proper, structured education system in the prisons. Even today, we do not have a proper screening process for all prisoners for standards of literacy and numeracy. The Government should attempt to tackle that particular issue if the necessary rehabilitative effect is to work.
  In order to minimise recidivism, links with families are important. We know that abrupt separation between arrest and remand has consequences for relationships and can have a significant effect on the incomes of families. What have the Government to offer in this respect, particularly for poor and disadvantaged families? Extra home leave has been provided in a number of cases, but it results in extra pressure on the family budget, which is inadequate in the first place. The Government have not dealt with the additional cost of a five-day home visit for some prisoners. So they have put more rather than less pressure on the prisoner and his or her family. I should like the Government to examine the philosophy of home leave and perhaps extend it to limited custody, under which a prisoners' obligations to his family are maintained and he is not allowed to duck those obligations.
  The Government and the Scottish Office have so far failed to offer any predictions or projections about the future prison population. Indeed, I asked the House of Commons Library to examine that issue for me. It wrote back to say that the Scottish Office does not publish projections of prison populations. Again, that is out of line with England and Wales and the Government should pay attention to that. Previous comments about sentencers scaling up sentences and about the degree of recidivism mean that substantial increases in the prison population are likely to result. Given the large number of people who go through the prison system, putting us at the top of the European league, it could be argued that projections of increased prison populations are even more applicable given the predilections of sentencers for sending people to prison.
  In the present law and order climate, it is highly debatable that the position of the reformers on crime and punishment will be adopted. If that is the case, the Bill will fail to alleviate the crisis inside prisons and outside in the wider criminal justice system. That could have detrimental and perhaps dire consequences for both prisoners and prison staff as well as for society.
  Whilst Opposition Members welcome the introduction of the Bill and consequently will not vote against it, we shall, however, examine it in detail to discover whether the

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  Government's rhetoric stands up to examination. For our part we shall ensure that our deliberations contribute towards improving the criminal justice system in Scotland.
  9.29 pm
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Lord James Douglas-Hamilton): First, I congratulate the hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Davidson) on his speech. It was a well delivered, excellent speech, showing good humour. He made a patriotic reference to the many attributes of his constituency, for which I warmly congratulate him. His experience of education will be of benefit to the House. I think that Coplaw street, which I know well from having attended the drill hall, is in his constituency. The standards of Scottish piping were extremely high. I wish the hon. Member well and look forward to his future contributions in the House. His reference to the formidable intellect of his predecessor, Bruce Milian, will be appreciated by those who well remember having to spar with him across the Gangways.
  The hon. Member for Dumbarton (Mr. McFall), who made his first speech from the Opposition Front Bench, mentioned many interesting and important matters. I can reassure him on one. The Bill rectifies the anomaly on remission for children, which he rightly pointed out, and it gives children and adults the same early release entitlements.
  Many important issues have been raised. The hon. Member for Monklands, West (Mr. Clarke) mentioned prisoners' rights, prison rules and the role of social workers. I hope to go into those matters in detail. The hon. Member for Dumbarton mentioned the difference between Scotland and England, and I shall go into the figures. The hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell) supported early release, which I welcome, and the hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman) mentioned children's evidence, which we regard as extremely important. My hon. Friends the Members for Tayside, North (Mr. Walker) and for Ayr (Mr. Gallie) referred to the extremely important matter of public protection, which will remain uppermost in our minds.
  Virtually every Member supported the statement by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State that he wished to reverse the policy of the other place in trying to reverse the decision on war crimes through the back door, and I shall return to that.
  To set the subject in perspective, I suggest that we deliberately developed an important theme during the last Parliament—the decision to open up the prison system to public scrutiny and to introduce what I would describe as glasnost to a world which literally operated behind closed doors, a world which was secretive when I first became a Minister, and which was the subject of much rumour and speculation. That policy was put into effect by the then director, Peter McKinlay, and the press and public were invited into prisons to see for themselves the truth behind the rumours and speculation. Greater openness is now a regular feature of our prison life and of the way in which prisons are run. Prisons have been demystified, and that is a big change. It has become normal practice to publicise
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  the facilities which prisons offer, to allow inmates to be interviewed and to promote full discussion of the aims and objectives of the Scottish prison service.
  We have made a survey of the views of prisoners. One issue that came out of the survey was the need for excellent visiting facilities and for improvements to them. That was on the top of their list; that was useful to know because we can direct our energies and attention towards those aspects.
  The move to openness, which I strongly supported. has been of great benefit to prisoners and their families. It has also benefited the staff, who have become accustomed to a culture of openness and accountability. They are being trained to regard prisoners as responsible individuals who, within the confines of their sentence and the restrictions that it imposes, can be encouraged to take responsible decisions for themselves. The provisions of part I of the Bill must be seen against that background, and that policy is steadily being taken forward in the Bill.
  For prisoners serving longer terms of imprisonment the parole decision is of fundamental importance. The Bill will lead to a fairer, more consistent and more open parole system, in which prisoners will know the factors that count and how their cases will be assessed. The new scheme will provide a better fit with other key initiatives in the prison service, such as sentence planning. In that connection, we favour open reporting—the hon. Member for Monklands, West touched upon that.
  The Kincraig committee recommended that prisoners should be able to see reports on them which formed the basis for consideration of the outcome of their cases with the parole board. Although there is no statutory provision to that effect, we intend that there should eventually be full disclosure. But the process of moving from a closed to an open system must be carefully managed. There will need to be adequate safeguards for information in case disclosure damages a third party or a prisoner personally. Those issues are now being looked at carefully and I am glad to report to the House that open reporting by prison service staff is now being piloted at Perth prison. That pilot scheme is being evaluated by the central research unit of the Scottish Office and the findings of the evaluation will pave the way for the introduction of open reporting in other establishments.
  Prison staff are not the only contributors to parole dossiers. Open reporting by other professional groups, such as social workers and psychiatrists, is a more sensitive area and in the next few months we plan to go into the issues more thoroughly to achieve more openness for the other parties.
  I also accept that prisoners should be given reasons for decisions on parole. The criteria for parole are to be set out in policy directions given under the provisions in clause 20(5), which makes protection of the public the central consideration. In future, reasons for parole decisions will be given to prisoners in terms of those criteria. It will be for the parole board to consider how the reasons should be communicated. The ideal solution would be to communicate the decision by letter to prisoners, but it would take careful planning and management to ensure that letters are sensitively worded and properly dispatched.
  An increase in permanent staff allocated to service the board will be required and will have to he considered against other priorities. Again, statutory provision is not needed.

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  In a thoroughly prepared and interesting speech, the hon. Member for Monklands, West mentioned fine defaulters. I am glad to say that it is not correct that 40 per cent. of the prison population are fine defaulters. Forty per cent. of the receptions and only 5 per cent. of the average daily population are fine defaulters. However, I accept the thrust of the hon. Gentleman's remarks. Indeed, the Bill's purpose is to introduce tougher measures for long-sentence prisoners who are a danger to the community, and more generosity and leniency for minor offenders.
  Mr. Tom Clarke: I do not seek to score a point, but during the debate we have been looking for clarification. What is the difference between 40 per cent. of prisoners regarded as "reception" and the reduction to 5 per cent.? What happens to those people in between?
  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: That was puzzling to me and I made inquiries on that point. Many receptions have their fines paid quickly by relatives, which clogs up the whole "prison system with extra administration. I accept the hon. Gentleman's point but I am glad to assure him that we are taking measures. For example, we now have a pilot scheme of supervised attendance orders in place of imprisonment for defaulters. We have also engaged in the deduction of fines from benefit, along the lines of deductions for electricity and gas. Both measures are alternatives to imprisonment for fine default.
  The hon. Gentleman also asked about the duration of post-release supervision. The Bill does not require supervision for the whole period of release on licence. Supervision will normally be fairly intense shortly after release, but as the prisoner settles down within the community the need for contact with his supervising officer should diminish. Within a year or two following release, contact with the supervising officer may not be necessary more often than once every few months and may even become wholly unnecessary. At that point, the supervision condition in the former prisoner's licence may be cancelled.
  Dr. Godman: Who will decide whether the supervision is to continue—the social worker/probation officer?
  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: I shall make inquiries and write to the hon. Gentleman.
  I believe that the hon. Gentleman also asked about the training of parole advisers, and who they would be. They will be volunteers and will no doubt be well qualified to carry out their function. Parole advisers will need to be trained to carry out their duties, but it is not intended that they should act as prisoners' representatives. Prisoners should make their representations in their own words to the parole board.
  Parole advisers will need to understand the requirements and procedures in order to explain them to prisoners and help them to make representations if the prisoners want that help. Members of the parole board and staff of the Scottish Office Home and Health Department will provide the necessary briefing and training for. parole advisers. If a prisoner wants legal advice, he or she should get it from a lawyer; it is not intended that parole advisers should take over such work.
  Mr. William McKelvey: Will the parole board have—as at present—information about a prisoner that may not necessarily involve
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  convictions? Such information may relate to suspicions of crimes which may have been committed but of which the prisoner has not been convicted in court.
  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: I have witnessed the parole board in action and I am not aware of activities along those lines. I shall have to make inquiries and write to the hon. Gentleman to inform him fully on that.
  The hon. Member for Monklands, West spoke of prison rules and grievance procedures—matters which we shall be taking forward. There is a small working group on grievance procedures; its report and recommendations were published and given wide circulation. We plan to begin to introduce new procedures in 1993 following consultation. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that as soon as we are clear on every detail of the revised rules we shall lose no time in laying the provisions before the House.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Kincardine and Deeside (Mr. Kynoch) raised the issue of corroboration to be used to enable the prosecution to succeed in cases involving the stealing of birds' eggs. The requirement for corroboration may mean that the evidence of a single witness corroborated by evidence of another type may be sufficient to enable a successful prosecution. The hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East said that we should be careful in changing the law on corroboration because what is at stake is not the admissibility but the sufficiency of the evidence.
  As for the parole board being used as a court, the European Court of Human Rights has ruled that where detention is justified purely on grounds of public risk such grounds must be determined by a body constituted as a court: that means the holding of hearings, legal representation for the parties and the disclosure of documents. The rules that may be made under clause 20 of the Bill will provide for those aspects. The rules will be laid before the House in the form of a statutory instrument.
  The hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East spoke of children detained without limit of time. I wish to dispel one or two misunderstandings that have arisen in the past. The sentence passed when a child is detained without limit of time does not mean detention without the possibility of release but is equivalent to the mandatory life sentence. Anyone so sentenced can be released at any time by the Secretary of State after consultation with the judiciary, provided he has a positive recommendation from the parole board.
  In an effort to give residential establishments greater flexibility in managing young people, we have introduced a scheme whereby those young people may be taken on escorted outings at regular intervals for sporting and other leisure activities. In the last Parliament, I sometimes had the responsibility of deciding whether prisoners should be released for educational courses. Uppermost in my consideration was the protection of the public and if I had any doubts about that I said no. Although none of the cases with which I was involved came before the House, they did involve a great deal of care and trouble. I have no doubt that the same will apply in future.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Ayr is anxious that we should have a vigorous law and order policy and that we should not be unnecessarily lenient. I think that I can reassure him. We take parties of constituents around the Houses of Parliament; we come across a marble statue in the other place of Queen Victoria flanked by celestial

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  supporters representing justice and mercy. I believe that a great nation should be capable of each quality, and it is vital that we should know when to apply each one.
  Although the Bill promotes greater fairness and consistency, it will also strengthen the deterrent effect of long sentences. Offenders sentenced to four or more years will have to wait until they have served at least half their sentence before being considered for parole, instead of one third as at present. So the Bill restores the meaning to the full duration of a long sentence by ensuring that release, when it comes, will be on licence, with a liability to recall for breach of licence. It also makes all released prisoners subject to recall by order of the court should they commit a further offence punishable by imprisonment during the outstanding part of the sentence.
  Mr. McFall: Can the Minister confirm that such release will have implications for social work and that the financial effects of the Bill will, therefore, not be neutral in that respect? Will he undertake to look at the implications for local authorities and social work departments?
  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: Yes, of course it will have such implications, but the hon. Gentleman correctly said that we cannot exactly estimate what they will be, for the simple reason that three factors are difficult to assess exactly: the number of supervised release orders that will be made by the courts, the duration of supervision that will be specified and the average duration and intensity of that supervision. Taking all the factors into account, however, we estimate that the costs will probably be somewhat less than £1 million. On the other hand, it should be borne in mind that the release of short-term prisoners at half sentence rather than two thirds will tend to reduce average daily prison populations and hence marginal costs. On the whole, we expect the increase in costs and the savings attributable to part I of the Bill to be roughly in balance. We shall have to keep a careful eye on this issue and provide the necessary resources—the hon. Gentleman's point was well made.
  The hon. Member for Dumbarton also drew comparisons with the rate of parole in England. For instance, he suggested that the 1984 policy was to blame for the fact that fewer Scots prisoners, relatively speaking, were recommended for parole than prisoners in England and Wales. But there is another reason—in England and Wales, from June 1984 until recently, the minimum period qualifying for parole was six months, while in Scotland it was and remains 12. Also, in England and Wales, local review committees have operated for some time under a presumption in favour of parole for all those sentenced to less than two years. The parole rate for this category in England and Wales has been between 75 and 80 per cent. That is part of the reason for the significant difference in the two jurisdictions.
  Another significant fact is that the recall rates north and south of the border are different. In England and Wales a far greater number have had to be recalled to custody for breach of licence. In 1991, according to the respective parole board reports, there were 964 recalls of determinate sentence prisoners in England and Wales and only 17 in Scotland.
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  I suggest that as of 1 October a new system will have been implemented in England and Wales under the Criminal Justice Act 1991, so when we are in a position to compare like with like we can make good progress.
  In the other place, Opposition Front-Bench spokesmen complained that we had considered the Bill at too short notice. There is much to be said for making haste slowly. Two years have elapsed between the publication of the Government's response to Kincraig and the introduction of the Bill in May. The Carlisle report for England and Wales was published about five months earlier, but there was also in prospect a far-reaching criminal justice Bill and it is appropriate to have a Bill to deal thoroughly and in depth with these matters.
  The policy announced in 1984 by the Secretary of State still stands, but we are committed to ending that policy in so far as it applies to determinate prisoners as soon as the statutory criteria for public risk are in place. We instigated the Kincraig report to measure the effectiveness of that policy in the light of experience and consequently have decided on this course.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Tayside, North and the hon. Member for Monklands, West spoke about the important issue of compassionate early release. The people primarily in mind are those who may be dying and have been imprisoned for committing serious crimes. If they are no longer a threat to anyone, the issue of their release should command some consideration. The Bill will benefit the small group of prisoners whose immediate release is justified on, for example, grounds of health. It will be a necessary condition that the person concerned should not pose a threat to the public and the advice of the parole board will be obtained.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Tayside, North spoke about discretionary life prisoners. Hon. Members have welcomed the introduction of new offences other than murder. Clause 2 expressly recognises that where the court passes a sentence of life imprisonment for crimes such as culpable homicide, attempted murder, rape or wilful fire-raising, it may have two purposes in mind—to deter or to protect the public, or both. The European Court of Human Rights has determined that the matter of detention on grounds of public risk requires periodic review by a body which has the constitution and functions of a court. Clause 2 complies with that judgment by providing that, after a period specified by the sentencing court has elapsed, the life prisoner will have the right to have his or her case reviewed every two years by the parole board. We intend to make rules to provide for the parole board to take on the character of a court in order to conduct these reviews with appropriate legal representation.
  Mr. Menzies Campbell: It may be difficult for the Minister to answer within the confines of the debate, but has he been able to form a view about what I said earlier—clause 6(2) appears to contain an infelicitous, indeed inept, reference to the contents of section 206 of the 1975 Act?
  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: The point was technical, but I agree with the hon. and learned Gentleman that perusal of the terms of section 206 might lead one to suppose that only a determinate sentence is possible. There is one case in which, without limit of time, a sentence was passed under section 206 as a maximum not a mandatory sentence, and that was upheld on appeal. Clause 6(1)

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  makes provision for such a case by applying the provisions of part I of the Bill as they apply to adults. Should such a sentence ever again be imposed, it is most probable that the judge will order that the relevant provisions in clause 2 are to apply—in other words, that the child should be treated in the same way as a discretionary life prisoner.
  Sir Nicholas Fairbairn: Will my hon. Friend give way?
  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: I have many questions to answer but I shall give way to my hon. and learned Friend.
  Sir Nicholas Fairbairn: Does my hon. Friend not think it strange that, for whatever reason, a life sentence is up for review every two years? Therefore, the sentence may be only two years, whereas a mandatory sentence has to be served for at least part of the pronounced sentence. Is it not rather odd that the longest sentence—the life sentence—should be the one that can be shortened the most, whereas the statutory sentence cannot be shortened more than by two thirds? Should not my hon. Friend look at the fatuosity of a life sentence that says, "We shall send you to prison but it might he for a week or it might be for ever"?
  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: The duration of licence is potentially until the end of the full sentence. My hon. and learned Friend has defended those who have been in prison for life and who are now out in the community. When and whether they should ever be allowed to return to the community depends first and foremost on the protection of the public.
  The hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow mentioned children's evidence. Evidence can be taken in three ways, of which the first is by live television link, as authorised by the Law Reform (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Scotland) Act 1990—the hon. Gentleman and I both participated in the Committee examining that Bill. Evidence can also be taken on commission and recorded for video transmission, as authorised by clause 33, and taken with the accused shielded from the view of the child, as authorised by clause 34. In each of these cases, in the interests of justice and fairness, the evidence will be subject to cross-examination on behalf of the accused person, who will continue to be able to see and hear the evidence being given. Like the hon. Gentleman, I pay tribute to the Scottish Law Commission report in this connection.
  This brings me to the issue of evidence by live television link in relation to war crimes—a subject raised by several hon. Members. In opening the debate, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made clear our intentions in relation to clause 32 and, in particular, subsection (5), which was inserted in the other place. The provisions of clause 32 can be invoked either by the prosecution or by the defence. Briefly, they enable either party to apply to the court in any solemn proceedings for the issuing of a letter of request to a court or other authority in a country outside the United Kingdom in which resides a witness whose evidence is relevant to the case.
  The letter of request would seek assistance in facilitating the giving of evidence by the witness through a live television link. The application for a letter of request
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  is to be granted only—this is important—if the judge is satisfied as to the matters specified in subsection (3) and in particular that the granting of the application is both in the interests of justice and is not unfair to the accused where the application is at the instance of the prosecution. In other words, we see this as being entirely in the interests of justice and not unfair to the accused.
  Mrs. Maria Fyfe: In his last couple of minutes, will the Minister respond to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Dumbarton (Mr. McFall) about the treatment of women offenders, because women are far less likely to be guilty of violent crime?
  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: The hon. Lady is taking me out of the sequence of my remarks, but I can tell her that I once had to defend a lady who had killed her husband by shooting him, and she was put on probation. Therefore, I know from experience that not all ladies are discriminated against in these matters. We should be against such discrimination, if there were any.
  We propose that the giving of evidence by television link should be fully and carefully debated on the Floor of the House at a later stage. I can see nothing wrong in principle with the use of today's advanced technology to facilitate the giving of evidence by witnesses whose presence in court is not possible, provided that is in the best interests of justice. The House will, I think, agree that the proposed new provisions contain every necessary safeguard.
  I have only a few seconds remaining for my speech. I conclude by saying that the Bill has a strong reforming purpose. It will be in the best interests of Scotland's prisons, prisoners, prison officers and the public at large, and I strongly commend it to the House.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 61 (Committal of Bills).

  Prisoners and Criminal Proceedings (Scotland) Bill [Lords]

    PRISONERS AND CRIMINAL PROCEEDINGS (SCOTLAND) BILL [LORDS] [Money [
    Queen's Recommendation having been signified—
    Resolved,
    That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Prisoners and Criminal Proceedings (Scotland) Bill [Lords] it is expedient to authorise the payment out of money provided by Parliament—

    (1) of any sums required by the Secretary of State for defraying the expenses of the Parole Board for Scotland;

    (2) of any expenses incurred by the Secretary of State in paying remuneration and allowances to parole advisers appointed under that Act;

    (3) of any administrative expenses incurred by the Secretary of State under that Act; and

    (4) of any increase attributable to that Act in the sums payable out of money so provided under any other Act.—[Mr. Lightbown.]

    PRISONERS AND CRIMINAL PROCEEDINGS (SCOTLAND) BILL [LORDS]
    Ordered,
    That the Prisoners and Criminal Proceedings (Scotland) Bill [Lords] may be proceeded with as if it had been certified by the Speaker as relating exclusively to Scotland.—[Mr. Lightbown.]

  Bloodstock Industry
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Lightbown.]
  10 pm
  Mr. James Paice; I welcome the opportunity to use the first Adjournment debate after the summer recess to raise a subject about which I have spoken before in the House. Its significance has come into stark reality during the recess.
  I am privileged to represent the principal bloodstock breeding constituency within the United Kingdom. My hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Spring) and I represent the centre of the United Kingdom racing industry in and around Newmarket. I am also the chairman of the relevant all-party committee. From these two positions I have witnessed the problems of the racing and bloodstock industry develop over the past few months and years.
  I welcome the many hon. Members on both sides of the House who have remained in their places to be part of this evening's debate. I hope that their presence is not lost on my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, who is standing in for my right hon. Friend the Paymaster General. My colleagues, like myself, have witnessed over the past few months a number of events, not least the fact that the BBC has presented two separate programmes in which it examined the severe financial constraints facing the industry, the decline in the number of horses in training—half the yards in Newmarket are supposed to be for sale—the decline in the number of owners and the efforts that are being made by the industry to help itself by the establishment or the creation of the British Racing Board.
  I shall quote from a letter written by a Member of the other place to his trainer. The passage reads:
  "I have really reached the end of the line with British racing and breeding, and facing up to the economics are just ridiculous. Perhaps one day the Government will see the error of their ways, and then I will be back."
  That is typical, unfortunately, of the attitude that is being taken by many owners.
  I do not need to rehearse all the facts about the industry. Suffice to say that "Panorama" stated that it is the sixth largest industry in the country. It is even larger, dare I say, than the coal industry. It is estimated that the breeding side alone employs about 17,000 people. The entire racing industry involves about 100,000 jobs. It has a positive balance of payments, with exports direct from the sale ring of about £20 million. They amount to considerably more when private sales are taken into account
  As the House will be aware, the changes in value added tax brought about by the single market and the end of certain special arrangements mean that as from 1 January 1993 our industry will have to compete with those of Ireland and France at 2.3 per cent. and 5.5 per cent. respectively. The inevitable result is that bloodstock breeders in the United Kingdom will send their horses abroad to be sold. It is certain that the studs will follow, especially the larger ones, which are often owned by overseas residents. We shall be left only with the breeders of second-class animals. There will be many fewer jobs, and less tax revenue for the Government.
  Also, overseas owners of mares will not send them to stallions in the United Kingdom because, unless there is
  294
  some extension of the current temporary import arrangement, they would have to pay VAT on the charges. Stallion investment as well is now in serious jeopardy.
  The good news during the recess was the decision by Tattersalls, this country's leading auctioneers, to remain in Britain as a result of the measures already taken by the Government to mitigate the problem. They deserve credit for that, but the issue goes beyond the location of Tattersalls, which, as with many other service sector companies, reflects the industry's financial health at any one time.
  The House could be forgiven for believing that the difficulties I have described are new and have been brought about by the single European market. Sadly, that is not the case. The problem has existed for many years. I have a letter from a former Treasury Minister relating to the belief that the French would not apply VAT law correctly. Nothing has changed in that regard. He wrote:
  "I gave an assurance that the Government would follow up the earlier official protests made to the Commission in May. It should become clear in the course of the next month whether we can realistically progress within an acceptable time scale. However, should it become apparent that we cannot, then the Government will give further and urgent consideration to the bloodstock problems as a whole."
  That Minister was Peter Rees, and the date of his letter was 30 August 1979. As my hon. Friend the Minister acknowledges by his smile, that month has become somewhat extended—to 13 years and two months. Still that unfair discrepancy exists, worsened by the rise in VAT rates and single market changes.
  The lesson to be learnt is that any protest to the Commission is a waste of time. France, or any other nation, will do what is in its special interest. Although my right hon. Friend the Paymaster General and his predecessors have consistently referred to the need to press the Commission to take action, my right hon. Friend must understand that the industry and many right hon. and hon. Members view such pronouncements with a degree of scepticism.
  A year ago, the Select Committee on Home Affairs, under the chairmanship of my hon. Friend the Member for Westminster, North (Sir J. Wheeler), undertook a highly regarded investigation into the financing of the racing industry. The Select Committee concluded that the Government must act quickly to alleviate the serious discrepancy that I mentioned. Consequently, the Minister then having responsibility for such matters—my right hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, South-West (Mrs. Shephard)—undertook a considerable amount of work to devise the flat-rate scheme for farmers that is now embodied in the Finance Act 1992. The industry made it plain, however, that it would not help most of the major United Kingdom breeders—and that is proving to be the case.
  More recently, my right hon. Friend the Paymaster General devised an extension of the rules governing distant selling to provide for temporary export as a means of avoiding the full VAT implications. That is of benefit only in respect of horses valued at more than 15,000 guineas, because it still costs the owner about £700 to export an animal to Ireland to complete the necessary paperwork—only for the new owner to bring the horse back. My right hon. Friend deserves credit for that concept, but it is not in itself sufficient. Most breeders of such horses would rather pay that £700 and sell them in a foreign sale ring.

  295
  The results of the first two sales at Tattersalls this autumn fulfilled the worst prophecies. The combined total income fell from £24 million last year to £16 million—a decline of 32 per cent. That itself cost the Government £1.4 million in lost VAT revenue. I emphasise that that money has gone already. The Treasury loses out regardless, and the country loses out because our blookstock industry is severely damaged.
  My hon. Friend the Minister—and, indeed, others—may be tempted to dismiss the reduction in prices as simply part of the recession. Before they do so, they should study the catalogues for the Deauville sales in France: they will find that in the past two years there has been a substantial increase in the number of consignments of horses from British breeders who had previously sent their horses to Tattersalls. Furthermore, in the past few weeks the Maktoum family—whose racehorse interests in this country are extensive—has decided to reduce its activities here. That family has given as one of the two main reasons for its move the VAT rate. Already the family had been approached by a senior official of the French Government, who were anxious to encourage it to remove all its racing interests to France and prepared to offer help to that end. The Maktoums may be the most well known, but many smaller breeders and owners are tempted to follow.
  My right hon. Friend the Paymaster General has taken a considerable interest in the matter, and that is of course very welcome. His attendance at various meetings has been widely recognised. None the less, the industry, in which Britain has always been pre-eminent, is going into permanent decline, not because of any inefficiency on its part or because of poor quality of production or lack of competitiveness, but simply because of Government-created inequalities in taxation. I have always supported my Government's policy of harmonisation through the market place rather than through regulation. Now the market has clearly spoken, and the Government should respond.
  Let me make it clear to the House, and to my hon. Friend the Minister, that I am not looking for a subsidy. I would not do that, because I do not believe that the industry needs or should have such a subsidy. I must add that the Paymaster General's comments on the subject in The Racing Post were not very well received by the industry. Nor am I looking for special treatment for the industry—and for that reason I am not speaking in favour of a special low rate of VAT, which, although perfectly legal, I accept is not a realistic proposition at this time.
  I am not looking for something that no one else has. What I am looking for is business registration for VAT purposes for racehorse owners. That would place United Kingdom owners back on a level footing. It would enable them to reclaim VAT on their inputs, and, indeed, to pay it on their outputs. It might well be possible to combine it with VAT on prize money—that is what happens in many other countries—and it would give the Government some payback. The horse race advisory council's taxation committee has worked on the whole question of output and its definition.
  As the House will know, the question of businesses and their definition comes under VAT law—specifically, under the sixth VAT directive, article 4, which defines a taxable person as any person who carries out any economic activity, whatever the purpose or results of that activity.
  My right hon. Friend the Paymaster General has said that, because racehorse ownership is, in his view, a hobby
  296
  and not a profit-making activity, it is in some way excluded. I must tell him that at no place in the directive does the motivation for carrying out an economic activity come into the matter. In no place does the directive refer to the profit motive as being necessary. Indeed, in article 6—which defines the supply of services—it is specifically stated that the following should be treated as supplies of services for consideration:
  "supplies of services carried out free of charge by the taxable person for his own private use or that of his staff or more generally for purposes other than those of his business".
  That clearly encompasses racehorse ownership, and my right hon. Friend really could use that as a basis for assisting the industry.
  Of the other 11 countries—all tied by the same sixth VAT directive—eight allow, in one way or another, racehorse ownership to be registered as a business. I hope that the Minister will tell my right hon. Friend the Paymaster General that I know that Customs and Excise states that in many countries it is not allowed and that he should look not at the official position but at what in reality is happening in those countries. If he does so, he will find that the vast majority of racehorse owners are able to register and that in most of those countries prize money is taxed at VAT rates. The industry in this country would accept that as part of the quid pro quo for this movement. Touche Ross carried out an investigation into the question of VAT on bloodstock in all Community countries. I am sure that its information could be made available to the Government, if they do not already have it.
  The simple conclusion, therefore, is that if all countries in the Community are tied by the same VAT directives as we are, how can it be that this country can resist—I accept that Ireland does the same—the registration of racehorse ownership as a business for VAT purposes? Before my right hon. Friend the Paymaster General says that he believes that the other countries are wrong and that he will protest to the Commission, I have to remind him of the letter from Peter Rees in 1979 which demonstrates that these protests are absolutely fruitless. The Customs and Excise lawyers should look at the directive to see how it can be used to help us rather than at how it can be used not to help us, or just to hinder others.
  I do not pretend that this proposal is the panacea for all the problems of the bloodstock industry. O that it were so simple. However, it would be a very considerable step forward, particularly for the breeders in my constituency and for those in the constituencies of both my hon. Friends and hon. Members in all parts of the House. I know that the issue of prize money is also of great significance. There is to be an attempt next month to stage an owners strike on that subject. It is to be led by one of my constituents. I intend to concentrate simply on the VAT issue, but I hope that sooner or later the House will have an opportunity to spend much longer on debating the problems that face this important industry.
  I hope that the Minister who is to reply to the debate will take back to my right hon. Friend the Paymaster General what I have said and what I believe may be said by the vice-chairman of the all-party racing committee, if he is fortunate enough to catch your eye, Madam Deputy Speaker. I hope that he does not intend to dismiss my proposals. If he does, I urge him to tear up the speech that he has in front of him. I simply remind him of the words of the Prime Minister and of the Chancellor of the Exchequer two weeks ago—that British interests must

  297
  come first. Clearly we are talking about a British interest. It goes far beyond the owners and stud farmers who are directly involved. It affects the employees of the industry—the many thousands of them. It affects the interests of the nearly 5 million people who attend race meetings and who, with countless millions of other people, last year paid £482 million in horse race betting duty to the Government.
  If my right hon. Friend the Paymaster General intends to play the cost card, perhaps he will ponder on this: the flat-rate scheme and distance selling are ways to avoid paying VAT. My right hon. Friend has already conceded that he will not get that money. If the sales go abroad, not only will my right hon. Friend not get the VAT but all the other revenue that the Government get from the industry will likewise disappear. If stud owners do not make a profit, there is no corporation tax. If the studs go abroad, there will be no business rates either. The real cost to the Government will be the tax revenues. The real cost will also detrimentally affect the heritage of this country where horse racing has always played a major role. I believe that it must continue to do so.
  I hope that my right hon. Friend will put meaning into the words of the Prime Minister. We are not crying wolf. The events of the last few months have shown clearly that the expectations that I spoke about in the House two years ago have started to happen. My constituents, and those of all my hon. Friends and of hon. Members in all parts of the House, now look to the Government to come up with solutions.
  10.19 pm
  Mr. Lawrence Cunliffe: I reinforce the points expressed by the hon. Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East (Mr. Paice) and his factual assessment of the state and plight of our bloodstock industry.
  There is some consternation that after 1 January 1993, when the differentials in VAT between the French, Irish and ourselves come into force, purchasers in the bloodstock market will make a vast percentage of their purchases in Ireland.
  There is no division on the subject between the parties. The hon. Gentleman, who is chairman of the all-party racing committee, pleaded a logical case. If the bloodstock and breeding industry is to make a reasonable commercial return, it is imperative that the playing field is level, that the differentials are equitable and, with respect to my Conservative friends, that free market competition is based on honest criteria. I say that in the nicest sense, especially being a miners' sponsored Member of Parliament.
  When we met the right hon. Member for Mid-Norfolk (Mr. Ryder), who is now the Government Chief Whip, he expressed sympathy with us. However, as my old boss, Joe Gormley—I was his adviser—used to say, it was a bit like giving us mustard without the beef. Our concern is that people who buy bloodstock and breeding stock in the same market will inevitably buy where the lowest taxes apply.
  Every member of the all-party racing committee is saying one thing—that unless the Government take notice and prompt action to enable the bloodstock industry to
  298
  compete on an equitable basis with our European competitors, a valuable source of trade and revenue may be lost.
  10.23 pm
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Stephen Dorrell): I begin by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East (Mr. Paice) on drawing the House's attention to this important matter in the first Adjournment debate of the autumn Session. He and I met regularly in Adjournment debates when I was a Health Minister, but he never succeeded in securing the same interest among our colleagues as he has this evening. I note that this interest is pursued not only by my hon. Friend as chairman of the all-party racing committee and by its other officers but is a subject that elicits substantial interest and sympathy in all parts of the House.
  I apologise for the absence of my right hon. Friend the Paymaster General, who has been chairing a meeting of ECOFIN today. The House will know that, in the normal course of events, this subject would have come within his sphere of influence in the Treasury. It is a subject to which he has devoted a substantial amount of time because he understands the importance of the industry to the Cambridgeshire economy, but, much more widely than that, as a major contributor and a major successful British industry—a British success story which any Treasury Minister should be interested to secure and to underwrite and want to continue to be a success story in the years ahead. As my hon. Friend emphasised, it creates a significant number of jobs, it creates real wealth for the British economy, and it is one that we all should want to continue to succeed. That at least is common ground in all parts of the House, and it is an ambition and an objective that is shared by Treasury Ministers.
  I stress that my right hon. Friend the Paymaster General is the master of all the detail in this subject. Whereas he looks after the Customs and Excise within the Treasury, I look after the Inland Revenue. Until this evening, I had thought that that meant that my cup overfloweth. However, I will undertake to the House to report to my right hon. Friend the Paymaster General and, of course, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor the arguments that have been put by both hon. Members who have contributed to the debate and also to transmit the attendance in the House at this relatively inconvenient time on a relatively lightly whipped evening to ensure that the issue is taken seriously by the House of Commons.
  My hon. Friend asked me to depart from whatever text had been provided for me by officials. I propose to keep the text in front of me but to elaborate a little in a way that I hope that my hon. Friend will find acceptable. He drew particular attention to the importance of VAT as one of the factors which either contributes or fails to contribute to the continued success of the livestock industry. I want to address the application of VAT to the racing livestock industry, but in particular——
  Mr. Colin Shepherd: Will my hon. Friend give way?
  Mr. Dorrell: Is my hon. Friend going to be very brief?
  Mr. Shepherd: I shall be very brief. Will my hon. Friend confirm that it is open to the Government to apply a lower rate of VAT if they so wish?
  Mr. Dorrell: I will touch on the point about lower rate VAT, but my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East particularly wanted me to dwell on the proposition of the——
  Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: Will my hon. Friend give way?
  Mr. Dorrell: Will my hon. Friend forgive me? I have three minutes left.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East wanted me to dwell particularly on the subject of the registration of racehorse owners, and I want to touch on both of those points. Taking first the point about low-rate VAT for horses, my right hon. Friend the Paymaster General is very well aware that many in the industry want us to introduce a low-rate VAT uniquely for horses or limited to defined categories of valuable horses. My hon. Friend will be well aware that it is the Government's basic proposition in dealing with the tax system that we seek to maintain a system that is as simple as possible with the minimum of discontinuities that are the inevitable consequence of a multiplicity of different rates. There would inevitably be pressure for reduced rates of VAT from a wide range of lobby groups who would feel that their case was at least as strong as that for racing bloodstock. The Government must of course be seen to be fair to all taxpayers. I understand my hon. Friend's point, but he will understand that it flies in the face of the established tax policies that the Government have pursued in this and many other matters.
  I now refer to the point about VAT registration of racehorse owners because that is the point on which my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East dwelt. My hon. Friend quoted the sixth VAT directive
  300
  which provides, as he said, that a trader is eligible for registration if he carries on an economic activity whatever the purpose. But the question is whether the ownership of racehorses and the racing of racehorses in race meetings constitutes an economic activity.
  Sir Nicholas Bonsor: Of course it does.
  Mr. Dorrell: My hon. Friend the Member for Upminster (Sir N. Bonsor) says, "Of course it does," but that is the question around which the argument revolves. As my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East rightly says, it is simply a matter of the enforcement of the law. This much I am clear about—whether we are talking about the Inland Revenue or the Customs and Excise, the interpretation of the law is not properly a matter for Ministers. If there is a dispute about whether the law is being properly enforced in allowing a certain racehorse owner to register for VAT, there is a well-established procedure by which a racehorse owner who feels that he is being unjustly denied the opportunity to register for VAT may prosecute that argument through the courts. As my hon. Friend quite rightly said, it is a matter of law whether an owner is entitled to register or not. The decision whether a racehorse owner falls within the categories defined within the law is a matter for decision ultimately by the courts and certainly not by Ministers.
  I stress to the House and to my hon. Friend that the Government share my hon. Friend's ambition to ensure that we have in this country a system of tax law which makes possible the continuation of a successful racehorse-breeding industry. That we shall continue to do.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at half-past Ten o'clock.

NATIONAL HERITAGE

  Cultural Heritage
  Mr. Cash
  To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage under what criteria areas of cultural heritage are to be classified as being areas of European significance, under the proposed article 128 of the treaty of Rome.

  Mr. Brooke
  Criteria will be agreed over time at meetings of the Council after the normal process of consultation among EC member states, the Commission and other interested parties has taken place.

  Deregulation
  Mr. Sproat
  To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage what financial provisions, and how much, he has made within his Department in order to look at the potential for deregulation of each of the regulatory measures for which he has responsibility.

  Mr. Key
  There is no specific financial provision for deregulation in the Department of National Heritage for the current financial year. This Department is fully committed to the Government's deregulation policy and will keep this under review in the policy areas for which it is responsible.

  National Lottery
  Mrs. Jane Kennedy
  To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage what evidence his Department has gathered on the effects of national lotteries in other countries on public funding of the arts, sports and charities.

  Mr. Brooke
  Many countries have lotteries and the effects on public funding vary accordingly to the policies of those countries' Governments. The position set out in the United Kingdom Government's White Paper, "A National Lottery: Raising Money for Good Causes" was that"the Government will not make any case by case reduction in conventional expenditure programmes to take account of awards from the lottery proceeds".

  Mrs. Jane Kennedy
  To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage what research his Department has undertaken or plans to undertake into the effects of a national lottery on(a) donations to charities, (b) small lotteries and (c) low income families.

  Mr. Brooke
  The Department has commissioned consultants to carry out research and advise on a number of aspects of the national lottery, including the matters raised by the hon. Member.

  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage what assessment he has made of the dual viability of the proposed national lottery and the premium bond prize draw; and if he will make a statement.
  6
  Mr. Brooke
  The products offered by these two schemes are very different. Premium bonds are a savings instrument. We expect both schemes to be viable.

  Mr. Bowis
  To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage if he will publish the contents of submissions he has received on the subject of the national lottery; and if he will place copies in the Library.

  Mr. Brooke
  I have no plans to do so.

  Television Licences
  Ms. Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage if he will review the code of practice governing the behaviour of television licence officers in respect of the carrying out of their work with full regard for courtesy and crime prevention.

  Mr. Brooke
  Under the Broadcasting Act 1990 responsibility for issuing TV licences and enforcing the licensing requirement was transferred to the BBC with effect from 1 April 1991. The question should accordingly be re-directed to the secretary of the BBC.

  Mr. Pawsey
  To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage what plans he has to review the regulations surrounding concessionary television licences for those resident in accommodation for short and long-term physically and mentally disabled persons.

  Mr. Brooke
  We have no plans to review the regulations governing the concessionary licence scheme.

  "A Vision for Vauxhall Gardens"
  Ms. Hoey
  To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage if his Department has considered an application for an exhibition relating to "A Vision for Vauxhall Gardens" to be displayed in the Upper Waiting Hall.

  Mr. Key
  I understand that, under procedures agreed by the Administration Committee, arrangements have been made with the authorities of the House for the Exhibition to be held in the Upper Waiting Hall from 16 to 20 November 1992.

  Mrs. Roe
  To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage what was the total sum given by cigarette manufacturers in sponsorship for(a) sport and (b) other cultural activities in the latest year for which figures are available; and what proportion (a) and (b) represent of the total sponsorship from non-government sources in each case.

  Mr. Brooke
  Sponsorship of sport in the United Kingdom by the tobacco industry was worth £7.630 million for the year ending 31 March 1991. The total value of sports sponsorship is estimated to be in excess of £200 million a year.

  Annual business sponsorship of the arts, including corporate membership, was more than £57 million on 1990–91, the latest year for which firm figures are available. Neither the Department nor the Association for Business Sponsorship of the Arts holds information on spending on arts sponsorship by the tobacco industry.

EDUCATION

  Adult Guidance Service
  Mr. Win Griffiths
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he will make a statement on the adult guidance service.

  Mr. Forman
  Guidance for adults is provided in a variety of ways, including by LEA's as part of the careers service and in the form of free-standing services. LEA's are building up links with TECs in the provision of these services. We hope that LEA services will play an important part in the Government's assessment and guidance credits initiative, announced in the White Paper "People, Jobs and Opportunity".

  Discretionary Grants
  Mr. Hendry
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he will require local education authorities to make education discretionary grants with regard to the further education of residents within the local education authority's area at a college or university outside its area, in cases where the course undertaken by the student is not available within the authority's own area.

  Mr. Forman
  It is for local education authorities to decide their own policies when exercising their discretionary powers. My right hon. Friend has no power to require authorities to exercise their discretion in particular ways.

  National Curriculum Technology
  Mr. Malone
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education (1) whether, after the review of national curriculum technology has been completed, the definition of construction materials as contained in the present order governing national curriculum technology shall still apply;

  (2) if he will consider the widening of the definition of construction materials contained in the present order governing national curriculum technology.

  Mr. Forth
  The independent review of national curriculum technology aims to clarify the learning requirements for the subject. It would be inappropriate to comment until my right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Education and for Wales have received the review group's report and published joint proposals for consultation. A full statement will be made in due course.

  Spelling Standards
  Mr. Wilshire
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he will make it his policy to make the grant of mandatory awards for university students conditional upon individual achievement of satisfactory spelling standards.

  Mr. Forman
  No. My right hon. Friend has recently reminded the higher education institutions of their responsibility to require appropriate entry standards—including standards in basic skills—and to make those clear to schools and potential students.

  Departmental Objectives
  Mr. Sproat
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education pursuant to his answer to the hon. Member for Harwich of 15 July,Official Report, column 726 when he expects to
  8
  complete the review of these objectives of each branch and division within his Department; and if he will set these objectives out separately for each division and branch in the Official Report when his review is complete.

  Mr. Forman
  I have written to my hon. Friend. A copy of my reply is available in the Library.

  Deregulation
  Mr. Sproat
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education what financial provisions, and how much, he has made within his Department in order to look at the potential for deregulation of each of the regulatory measures for which he has responsibility.

  Mr. Forman
  Deregulation issues are dealt with within current resources: the Department is responsible for very few regulations affecting businesses.

  Rudolf Steiner Waldorf Education
  Ms. Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education what representations he has received regarding the funding of Rudolf Steiner Waldorf education; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Forth
  My right hon. Friend has received 120 letters from hon. Members and 20 letters from others interested in Steiner education. A deputation led by Mr. Brien Masters, chairman of the Steiner Schools Foundation was also received by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education—my hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Mr. Forman)—in September. Steiner schools offer a distinctive approach to education and one which is clearly valued by parents and supporters of the schools. They thus contribute to the richness and diversity which is the hallmark of independent school provision in this country. There is, however, absolutely no justification for supporting this particular group of independent schools from public funds either now or in the future.

  Schools, Greenwich
  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education when he expects to be able to approve the application for capital approval for extra forms of entry for St. Thomas More and St. Paul's schools in the London borough of Greenwich.

  Mr. Forth
  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State expects to be able to announce his decision on these proposals within the next few weeks.

  School Budgets
  Mrs. Gorman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he will set out for each local education authority the percentage of the aggregate schools budget represented by(a) the potential schools budget, (b) GM-related expenditure and (c) the general schools budget in the most recent year for which information is available.

  Mr. Forth
  The tables set out, for each authority, the aggregated schools budget as a proportion of the potential schools budget, and other information relating to the extent to which resources are retained for spending by the authority and the extent to which resources are allocated
  9
  to schools on the basis of their pupil numbers. Figures for spending on local authority schools of a type which governors of grant-maintained schools have to make

  Table: The extent of LEAs' delegation to schools (1992–93)

  1

  2

  3

  4

  5

  Local education authority (LEA)

  PSB delegated to schools

  PSB not delegated per pupil

  Central administration as proportion of PSB

  Central administration per pupil

  1992–93

  (1991–92)

  1992–93

  1992–93

  (1991–92)

  1992–93

  per cent

  per cent

  £

  per cent

  per cent

  £

  All LEAs where LMS in operation before April 1992

  1 Berkshire

  89.11

  (87.68)

  190

  2.14

  (2.78)

  40

  2 Sefton

  88.78

  (87.86)

  210

  2.41

  (2.71)

  40

  3 Bolton

  88.52

  (88.31)

  210

  1.49

  (2.06)

  30

  4 Stockport

  88.34

  (88.69)

  220

  2.23

  (3.15)

  40

  5 Sunderland

  88.31

  (88.40)

  200

  2.14

  (2.15)

  40

  6 Rochdale

  88.31

  (88.46)

  200

  2.32

  (2.37)

  40

  7 Bexley

  88.27

  (81.32)

  210

  2.88

  (5.06)

  50

  8 Cheshire

  88.26

  (87.35)

  200

  1.83

  (1.71)

  30

  9 Barking

  87.85

  (85.20)

  230

  3.22

  (3.27)

  60

  10 Northamptonshire

  87.62

  (86.01)

  220

  1.66

  (2.23)

  30

  11 West Sussex

  87.38

  (87.67)

  220

  2.25

  (2.09)

  40

  12 Devon

  87.31

  (87.14)

  220

  2.73

  (2.53)

  50

  13 Cambridgeshire

  87.22

  (87.45)

  230

  2.10

  (2.03)

  40

  14 Manchester

  87.19

  (88.03)

  240

  2.94

  (3.54)

  50

  15 Northumberland

  87.17

  (88.16)

  200

  2.68

  (2.37)

  40

  16 Hertfordshire

  87.14

  (86.19)

  240

  3.75

  (3.81)

  70

  17 Bury

  87.08

  (85.31)

  230

  2.29

  (2.00)

  40

  18 Warwickshire

  87.03

  (86.72)

  220

  3.07

  (3.19)

  50

  19 Suffolk

  87.01

  (87.56)

  240

  1.23

  (0.78)

  20

  20 Brent

  86.91

  (83.51)

  290

  4.04

  (4.26)

  90

  21 Croydon

  86.83

  (81.00)

  290

  2.97

  (4.15)

  60

  22 Leeds

  86.79

  (86.26)

  250

  3.31

  (4.22)

  60

  23 Cumbria

  86.72

  (85.41)

  240

  2.27

  (3.02)

  40

  24 Hampshire

  86.56

  (086.11)

  250

  2.39

  (3.16)

  40

  25 Enfield

  86.39

  (84.68)

  270

  2.89

  (3.69)

  60

  26 Lincolnshire

  86.34

  (85.46)

  250

  2.29

  (2.21)

  40

  27 Shropshire

  86.31

  (86.09)

  270

  1.83

  (2.00)

  40

  28 Norfolk

  86.24

  (84.37)

  260

  2.36

  (3.35)

  40

  29 Ealing

  86.14

  (82.92)

  280

  2.95

  (5.86)

  60

  30 Havering

  86.09

  (85.09)

  270

  2.08

  (1.93)

  40

  31 South Tyneside

  85.98

  (85.94)

  240

  1.90

  (2.06)

  30

  32 Oxfordshire

  85.91

  (84.68)

  280

  3.48

  (2.85)

  70

  33 Isle of Wight

  85.76

  (83.75)

  270

  1.90

  (1.92)

  40

  34 Solihull

  85.76

  (85.59)

  270

  1.15

  (1.93)

  20

  35 Wirral

  85.75

  (85.73)

  250

  1.39

  (2.59)

  20

  36 Surrey

  85.68

  (84.61)

  270

  3.79

  (4.85)

  70

  37 Walsall

  85.68

  (85.50)

  260

  3.11

  (3.40)

  60

  38 Westminster

  85.63

  (34.88)

  370

  4.44

  (5.59)

  110

  39 Somerset

  85.61

  (85.48)

  280

  2.29

  (2.69)

  40

  40 Calderdale

  85.58

  (85.46)

  250

  3.73

  (2.39)

  60

  41 Kingston

  85.57

  (84.35)

  310

  3.51

  (4.11)

  80

  42 Sandwell

  85.56

  (82.74)

  280

  2.37

  (4.51)

  50

  43 Kirklees

  85.46

  (84.96)

  260

  3.34

  (3.65)

  60

  44 Hereford/Worcester

  85.46

  (83.99)

  270

  2.45

  (3.18)

  40

  45 Staffordshire

  85.41

  (84.84)

  250

  2.75

  (4.10)

  50

  46 North Yorkshire

  85.39

  (84.16)

  270

  1.95

  (2.37)

  40

  47 St. Helens

  85.39

  (84.53)

  280

  3.56

  (3.65)

  70

  48 Leicestershire

  85.37

  (84.28)

  280

  2.62

  (2.89)

  50

  49 Durham

  85.30

  (82.16)

  260

  2.28

  (4.79)

  40

  50 Buckinghamshire

  85.29

  (86.58)

  270

  2.98

  (3.55)

  60

  51 Barnsley

  85.27

  (85.91)

  240

  2.40

  (2.88)

  40

  52 Bedfordshire

  85.23

  (83.29)

  280

  2.93

  (3.66)

  60

  53 East Sussex

  85.23

  (85.37)

  270

  1.95

  (2.20)

  40

  54 Barnet

  85.20

  (83.68)

  310

  4.22

  (4.96)

  90

  55 Humberside

  85.20

  (84.60)

  280

  3.08

  (3.01)

  60

  56 Isles of Scilly

  85.12

  (83.17)

  530

  3.85

  (6.41)

  140

  57 Essex

  85.08

  (85.08)

  270

  2.87

  (3.52)

  50

  58 Nottinghamshire

  85.06

  (83.96)

  270

  3.15

  (3.41)

  60

  59 Dudley

  85.06

  (84.47)

  270

  3.30

  (3.64)

  60

  60 Richmond

  85.03

  (82.58)

  300

  4.10

  (4.82)

  80

  61 Redbridge

  85.03

  (83.13)

  270

  2.68

  (5.10)

  50

  62 Cornwall

  85.02

  (83.95)

  260

  2.64

  (3.52)

  50

  63 Newcastle

  84.89

  (82.38)

  280

  3.45

  (5.09)

  60

  64 Hounslow

  84.83

  (83.26)

  310

  3.04

  (4.46)

  60

  65 North Tyneside

  84.78

  (84.55)

  290

  2.40

  (3.99)

  50

  66 Salford

  84.74

  (86.03)

  280

  4.29

  (2.64)

  80

  67 Tameside

  84.74

  (83.80)

  260

  1.96

  (2.16)

  30

  10
  themselves could only be calculated for all local education authorities at disproportionate cost. I will write to my hon. Friend with a detailed explanation of the factors involved.
  11

  1

  2

  3

  4

  5

  Local education authority (LEA)

  PSB delegated to schools

  PSB not delegated per pupil

  Central administration as proportion of PSB

  Central administration per pupil

  1992–93

  (1991–92)

  1992–93

  1992–93

  (1991–92)

  1992–93

  per cent

  per cent

  £

  per cent

  per cent

  £

  68 Bradford

  84.74

  (86.68)

  280

  3.41

  (3.55)

  60

  69 Rotherham

  84.70

  (85.43)

  290

  3.54

  (3.76)

  70

  70 Sutton

  84.70

  (85.15)

  280

  3.56

  (3.84)

  60

  71 Trafford

  84.69

  (83.94)

  250

  2.48

  (3.68)

  40

  72 Bromley

  84.67

  (84.88)

  300

  3.51

  (5.70)

  70

  73 Kent

  84.54

  (85.84)

  270

  3.78

  (4.61)

  70

  74 Liverpool

  84.47

  (82.92)

  290

  3.97

  (4.65)

  70

  75 Derbyshire

  84.46

  (83.97)

  260

  1.94

  (3.04)

  30

  76 Cleveland

  84.45

  (83.37)

  280

  3.54

  (4.64)

  60

  77 Wiltshire

  84.42

  (83.26)

  290

  3.47

  (3.18)

  60

  78 Knowsley

  84.41

  (83.24)

  290

  4.76

  (4.99)

  90

  79 Hillingdon

  84.38

  (83.91)

  290

  3.81

  (6.17)

  70

  80 Lancashire

  84.32

  (82.74)

  290

  1.63

  (3.46)

  30

  81 Merton

  84.31

  (84.86)

  330

  2.97

  (3.33)

  60

  82 Oldham

  84.30

  (83.14)

  290

  2.50

  (4.53)

  50

  83 Birmingham

  84.26

  (83.41)

  290

  3.66

  (3.85)

  70

  84 Doncaster

  84.20

  (84.00)

  300

  2.19

  (2.29)

  40

  85 Dorset

  84.16

  (85.16)

  270

  3.26

  (3.72)

  60

  86 Wigan

  84.11

  (83.03)

  300

  3.65

  (4.18)

  70

  87 Sheffield

  84.08

  (85.92)

  300

  3.48

  (3.26)

  70

  88 Wakefield

  84.05

  (84.28)

  280

  1.66

  (1.49)

  30

  89 Gateshead

  83.91

  (83.92)

  300

  1.57

  (2.99)

  30

  90 Haringey

  83.84

  (83.77)

  370

  3.78

  (4.78)

  90

  91 Avon

  83.56

  (82.78)

  310

  3.60

  (3.87)

  70

  92 Gloucestershire

  83.19

  (84.47)

  290

  3.13

  (3.37)

  50

  93 Coventry

  83.01

  (82.76)

  330

  5.06

  (4.37)

  100

  94 Harrow

  83.75

  (82.45)

  350

  4.94

  (5.05)

  100

  95 Waltham Forest

  82.09

  (80.22)

  390

  5.10

  (6.60)

  110

  96 Newham

  82.07

  (79.46)

  360

  3.37

  (5.94)

  70

  97 Wolverhampton

  80.94

  (81.55)

  370

  5.19

  (5.33)

  100

  Averages

  85.57

  (84.89)

  270

  2.84

  (3.44)

  50

  Inner London LEAs where LMS in operation from April 1992

  1 City of London

  87.05

  360

  9.67

  270

  2 Islington

  85.19

  390

  4.53

  120

  3 Wandsworth

  84.16

  390

  3.69

  90

  4 Camden

  83.20

  420

  4.04

  100

  5 Hammersmith-Fulham

  81.70

  480

  3.84

  100

  6 Lewisham

  81.09

  440

  5.66

  130

  7 Hackney

  79.77

  490

  5.27

  130

  8 Lambeth

  79.68

  510

  6.40

  160

  9 Greenwich

  79.63

  470

  7.98

  180

  10 Southwark

  79.12

  480

  7.10

  160

  11 Tower Hamlets

  77.16

  590

  5.66

  150

  136

  12 Kensington-Chelsea

  76.13

  760

  9.00

  290

  Averages

  80.59

  480

  5.78

  140

  National Averages

  85.31

  (84.89)

  270

  2.99

  (3.44)

  60

  Footnotes to table showing the extent of delegation.

  1. All 109 local education authorities (LEAs) in England have LMS schemes in operation and are required to publish budget statements showing planned expenditure, under section 42 of the Education Reform Act. The LEAs are ranked, according to the percentage of funds delegated to schools, with those delegating more at the top of the ranking order. Schemes for the 12 inner London LEAs other than Westminster came into operation later than the rest, on 1 April 1992. These LEAs are listed separately.

  2. The potential schools budget (PSB) consists of the major part of the general schools budget (GSB)—ie the GSB less planned expenditure on certain excepted items: capital expenditure; expenditure supported by central government grants; and expenditure on school meals, home to school transport and transitional exceptions (eg grounds maintenance). The amount which the schools themselves decide how to spend, as a proportion of the PSB, is a percentage used as an indicator of the extent to which LEAs have delegated resources to their schools. A new requirement from April 1993 (1995 for the 12 inner London authorities listed separately) is that this percentage should be a minimum of 85 per cent. The percentage for the previous year 1991–92 is given in brackets. Where a figure is not given in brackets the LMS scheme was not in operation during that year.

  3. The proportion of the PSB held back by each LEA (ie not delegated to schools) expressed as a cash amount per pupil—rounded to the nearest £10. LEAs are not required to state the price base used in their estimates and no adjustment has therefore been made: comparisons between LEAs should consequently take into account that a different price base may have been used. Pupil numbers have in most cases been taken from LEAs' section 42 statements.

  4. Planned expenditure on central administration—one of the discretionary exceptions included in the PSB—expressed as a percentage of the PSB. The previous year's percentage is given in brackets. Following the publication of accounting guidance by CIPFA this year, LEAs may have changed from last year their method of calculating central administration expenditure. In addition, not all LEAs have followed CIPFA's guidance this year. Consequently, there may not be a consistent basis for comparisons between years and between LEAs.

  5. Planned expenditure on central administration expressed as a cash amount per pupil—rounded to the nearest £10. The qualifications on price base and the basis of LEAs' calculations of central expenditure (see notes 3 and 4) apply to these figures as well. NB The percentages stated may differ from the percentages calculated by individual LEAs because of the effects of rounding.

  12 13

  Table: Percentage of aggregated schools budget (ASB) based on pupil numbers (1992–93)

  1

  2

  Local Education Authority

  Pupil-led funding as a percentage

  (LEA)

  ASB

  All LEA where LMS in operation before April 1992

  1992–93 Per cent.

  (1991–92) Per cent.

  1 Isle of Scilly

  93.22

  (93.21)

  2 Dudley

  89.63

  (90.00)

  3 South Tyneside

  88.68

  (88.33)

  4 Wigan

  86.84

  (86.40)

  5 Lincolnshire

  86.82

  (88.51)

  6 Gateshead

  86.72

  (87.04)

  7 Tameside

  86.62

  (85.33)

  8 Bexley

  86.46

  (85.39)

  9 Barking

  86.45

  (88.36)

  10 Bolton

  86.42

  (86.16)

  11 Oldham

  86.24

  (84.69)

  12 Northumberland

  85.56

  (86.07)

  13 Newcastle

  85.16

  (81.66)

  14 Bromley

  84.90

  (84.43)

  15 Brent

  84.75

  (86.00)

  16 Northamptonshire

  84.72

  (82.62)

  17 Sefton

  84.58

  (83.79)

  18 Redbridge

  84.32

  (84.00)

  19 Trafford

  84.25

  (84.40)

  20 Knowsley

  84.22

  (83.50)

  21 Rotherham

  84.05

  (82.87)

  22 Stockport

  83.99

  (80.31)

  23 Harrow

  83.56

  (83.49)

  24 Kingston

  83.54

  (76.67)

  25 Barnsley

  83.52

  (81.98)

  26 Leicestershire

  83.46

  (83.19)

  27 Hereford/Worcester

  83.42

  (81.95)

  28 Kent

  83.28

  (84.93)

  29 Sunderland

  83.24

  (82.25)

  30 Devon

  83.08

  (82.78)

  31 Suffolk

  83.01

  (82.29)

  32 Rochdale

  83.00

  (80.00)

  33 Enfield

  82.97

  (80.40)

  34 Calderdale

  82.88

  (83.19)

  35 North Yorkshire

  82.66

  (82.02)

  36 Bury

  82.62

  (81.42)

  37 Coventry

  82.48

  (83.57)

  38 Cambridgeshire

  81.94

  (81.00)

  39 Avon

  81.93

  (82.91)

  40 Manchester

  81.79

  (82.14)

  41 Isle of Wight

  81.71

  (81.85)

  42 Cheshire

  81.34

  (80.16)

  43 Cornwall

  81.33

  (83.75)

  44 Cleveland

  81.19

  (80.33)

  45 Westminster

  81.17

  (83.32)

  46 Solihull

  80.95

  (81.70)

  47 Lancashire

  80.94

  (79.60)

  48 Waltham Forest

  80.92

  (81.66)

  49 Wiltshire

  80.90

  (81.56)

  50 Richmond

  80.89

  (79.79)

  51 Sutton

  80.83

  (80.53)

  52 Cumbria

  80.64

  (78.83)

  53 Ealing

  80.63

  (80.53)

  54 Nottinghamshire

  80.53

  (76.34)

  55 Durham

  80.47

  (80.20)

  56 Wirral

  80.39

  (79.55)

  57 Dorset

  80.38

  (79.94)

  58 Bedfordshire

  80.23

  (78.50)

  59 Leeds

  80.10

  (80.26)

  60 Humberside

  80.02

  (80.42)

  61 Liverpool

  80.00

  (80.00)

  62 Shropshire

  79.76

  (77.86)

  63 Kirklees

  79.41

  (77.27)

  64 Newham

  79.32

  (79.85)

  65 Gloucestershire

  79.25

  (80.64)

  66 Warwickshire

  79.10

  (79.02)

  67 St. Helens

  79.00

  (76.50)

  68 Berkshire

  78.92

  (79.31)

  69 Haringey

  78.91

  (77.37)

  70 Hounslow

  78.76

  (77.82)

  14

  1

  2

  Local Education Authority

  Pupil-led funding as a percentage

  (LEA)

  ASB

  All LEA where LMS in operation before April 1992

  1992–93 Per cent.

  (1991–92) Per cent.

  71 Salford

  78.67

  (82.02)

  72 Staffordshire

  78.67

  (79.34)

  73 Sheffield

  78.64

  (77.30)

  74 Derbyshire

  78.48

  (75.32)

  75 Hillingdon

  78.45

  (77.93)

  76 West Sussex

  78.23

  (82.29)

  77 Somerset

  78.17

  (79.09)

  78 Walsall

  78.14

  (77.87)

  79 Bradford

  78.12

  (77.66)

  80 North Tyneside

  78.00

  (78.00)

  81 Surrey

  77.91

  (76.58)

  82 Hampshire

  77.90

  (76.35)

  83 Oxfordshire

  77.59

  (77.60)

  84 Birmingham

  77.55

  (78.69)

  85 Merton

  77.45

  (77.99)

  86 Barnet

  77.29

  (76.86)

  87 Essex

  77.07

  (76.56)

  88 Havering

  76.61

  (75.09)

  89 Doncaster

  76.50

  (76.66)

  90 Norfolk

  76.43

  (75.31)

  91 Hertfordshire

  76.43

  (75.33)

  92 East Sussex

  76.41

  (76.29)

  93 Buckinghamshire

  76.32

  (79.06)

  94 Croydon

  75.66

  (80.22)

  95 Wakefield

  75.63

  (75.76)

  96 Wolverhampton

  75.33

  (74.88)

  97 Sandwell

  75.01

  (79.03)

  Averages

  80.54

  (80.17)

  1

  2

  Local Education Authority (LEA)

  Pupil-led funding as a percentage

  ASB

  Inner London LEAs where LMS in operation from April 1992

  1992–93 Per cent.

  (1991–92) Per cent.

  1 Wandsworth

  85.04

  2 Islington

  84.00

  3 City of London

  82.11

  4 Kensington/Chelsea

  81.64

  5 Southwark

  80.84

  6 Hammersmith/Fulham

  80.68

  7 Camden

  80.66

  8 Lewisham

  77.64

  9 Lambeth

  77.51

  10 Hackney

  77.27

  11 Tower Hamlets

  76.70

  12 Greenwich

  76.56

  Averages

  79.55

  National Averages

  80.49

  (80.17)

  Footnotes to table showing the extent of pupil-led funding.

  1. The LEAs are ranked according to the proportion of funds allocated to schools on the basis of pupil numbers and ages, with those allocating a greater percentage of pupil-led funding at the top of the ranking order.

  2. The aggregated schools budget (ASB) is that part of the potential schools budget which is delegated to the school level. The current requirement is that at least 75 per cent. of an LEA's ASB is based on pupil numbers and ages. From April 1993 (1995 for the inner London authorities which only started LMS this year) the minimum percentage will be raised to 80 per cent. (but that will include any pupil-led funding allocated in respect of special needs which does not currently count towards the 75 per cent. minimum). The percentage of pupil-led funding in 1991–92 is given in brackets. Where a figure is not given in brackets the LMS scheme was not in operation last year. All figures are derived from LEA's published budget statements, but

  15
  the percentages stated may differ from the percentages calculated by individual LEAs because of the effects of rounding and other adjustments.

  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education what steps he has taken to satisfy himself that local management of schools' budgets fairly takes account of the extra costs to a school with long-term stable staffing.

  Mr. Forth
  Within the national local management of schools framework, LEA schemes may provide for small school budget shares to reflect actual staff costs for as long as the LEA considers necessary. LEAs may also extend the transitional period to larger schools which face exceptional difficulties because of higher than average salary costs. We have said that we will review the policy of funding teachers' salaries within LMS schemes. However, it remains our view that governors should be responsible and accountable for the financial implications of their decisions.

  School leavers statistical file 1990–91 revised 3 July 1992 Maintained schools only

  Percentage of school leavers with five or more GCSE/O/CSE grades A-C

  1988–89 to 1990–91

  1987–88 to 1989–90

  1986–87 to 1988–89

  1985–86 to 1987–88

  Per cent.

  Rank

  Per cent.

  Rank

  Per cent.

  Rank

  Per cent.

  Rank

  Buckinghamshire

  43.5

  1

  41.2

  2

  36.0

  5

  33.4

  6

  Surrey

  42.9

  2

  40.7

  3

  38.0

  4

  36.4

  3

  Harrow

  42.8

  3

  44.1

  1

  38.6

  3

  38.3

  2

  West Sussex

  42.2

  4

  39.6

  4

  35.5

  6

  32.5

  8

  East Sussex

  40.5

  5

  36.5

  9

  31.4

  13

  27.4

  23

  Hertfordshire

  39.6

  6

  36.1

  10

  31.9

  11

  30.3

  12

  Barnet

  39.5

  7

  39.0

  5

  38.9

  2

  41.5

  1

  Sutton

  39.4

  8

  37.0

  8

  39.1

  1

  34.9

  4

  Stockport

  38.9

  9

  34.9

  11

  28.6

  25

  24.9

  43

  North Yorkshire

  38.1

  10

  37.6

  7

  34.5

  7

  32.8

  7

  Solihull

  38.0

  11

  33.4

  16

  31.7

  12

  30.8

  11

  Somerset

  38.0

  11

  31.4

  29

  27.1

  39

  24.5

  46

  Gloucestershire

  37.9

  13

  34.3

  13

  31.2

  14

  29.1

  17

  Trafford

  37.5

  14

  32.8

  20

  30.7

  15

  31.1

  10

  Kingston upon Thames

  36.8

  15

  34.2

  14

  32.2

  10

  34.1

  5

  Hampshire

  36.8

  15

  32.8

  20

  29.6

  21

  27.7

  21

  Wigan

  36.4

  17

  34.6

  12

  30.2

  18

  29.4

  15

  Northumberland

  36.0

  18

  33.4

  16

  30.7

  15

  29.8

  13

  Cheshire

  35.5

  19

  33.3

  18

  29.1

  23

  28.3

  19

  Richmond upon Thames

  35.4

  20

  38.0

  6

  32.4

  8

  29.6

  14

  Bolton

  35.3

  21

  31.9

  26

  28.7

  24

  26.0

  36

  Cornwall and Isles of Scilly

  35.3

  21

  33.8

  15

  30.1

  19

  27.2

  24

  Warwickshire

  35.1

  23

  30.9

  31

  28.5

  26

  26.6

  28

  Havering

  35.0

  24

  28.6

  46

  24.4

  57

  23.3

  52

  Sefton

  34.8

  25

  33.3

  18

  28.5

  26

  26.4

  31

  Dorset

  34.7

  26

  31.5

  28

  27.6

  35

  27.2

  24

  North Tyneside

  34.4

  27

  30.3

  33

  27.5

  36

  23.3

  52

  Bromley

  34.3

  28

  31.7

  27

  29.9

  20

  32.0

  9

  Shropshire

  34.3

  28

  32.4

  23

  30.3

  17

  27.7

  21

  Wirral

  33.7

  30

  32.5

  22

  27.8

  31

  25.9

  39

  Cambridgeshire

  33.6

  31

  29.8

  37

  28.0

  29

  26.0

  36

  Enfield

  33.5

  32

  31.4

  29

  26.9

  41

  24.8

  44

  Hereford and Worcester

  33.4

  33

  32.1

  25

  29.2

  22

  28.5

  18

  Wiltshire

  32.8

  34

  30.1

  36

  25.9

  45

  23.9

  48

  Devon

  32.7

  35

  29.5

  40

  26.3

  44

  24.4

  47

  Merton

  32.5

  36

  28.7

  45

  24.6

  54

  23.4

  49

  Berkshire

  32.5

  36

  32.4

  23

  32.3

  9

  29.3

  16

  Essex

  32.5

  36

  30.9

  31

  27.4

  37

  26.3

  32

  Kirklees

  32.4

  39

  28.2

  49

  25.6

  46

  25.1

  42

  Bexley

  32.2

  40

  30.2

  34

  28.5

  26

  27.8

  20

  Leicestershire

  32.2

  40

  28.4

  48

  25.1

  51

  23.4

  49

  Avon

  31.9

  42

  30.2

  34

  27.8

  31

  26.1

  35

  Rotherham

  31.8

  43

  28.6

  46

  23.0

  63

  19.5

  73

  Kent

  31.5

  44

  28.9

  43

  27.3

  38

  26.5

  30

  Lancashire

  31.5

  44

  29.4

  41

  26.8

  42

  25.6

  40

  Norfolk

  31.4

  46

  27.8

  51

  24.5

  56

  22.7

  55

  Oxfordshire

  31.2

  47

  29.8

  37

  27.7

  33

  26.2

  34

  Cumbria

  31.0

  48

  29.6

  39

  28.0

  29

  26.9

  27

  Hillingdon

  30.7

  49

  27.3

  54

  22.7

  65

  20.0

  70

  Tameside

  30.7

  49

  29.1

  42

  27.1

  39

  24.7

  45

  Staffordshire

  30.

  49

  26.6

  60

  24.9

  52

  23.4

  49

  Examination Statistics
  Mrs. Gorman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he will publish a list of local education authorities in England in rank order by the percentage of pupils achieving five higher grade GCSEs in the last year for which information is available, showing in each case(a) that percentage and (b) the rank order position and percentage for each of the previous four years.

  Mr. Forth
  The attached table gives details of the estimated percentage of school leavers achieving five or more GCSE/O/CSE grades A-C in rank order. The latest available data based on a 10 per cent. sample of school leavers aggregated over three years—1988–89 to 1990–91—in order to reduce sampling errors. The aggregated figures for the earlier years are also shown.
  17

  1988–89 to 1990–91

  1987–88 to 1989–90

  1986–87 to 1988–89

  1985–86 to 1987–88

  Per cent

  Rank

  Per cent

  Rank

  Per cent

  Rank

  Per cent

  Rank

  Calderdale

  30.6

  52

  27.8

  51

  21.5

  75

  20.0

  70

  Northamptonshire

  30.3

  53

  27.8

  51

  22.8

  64

  21.7

  61

  Isle of Wight

  30.2

  54

  28.1

  50

  19.5

  83

  17.1

  86

  Lincolnshire

  29.9

  55

  26.6

  60

  25.2

  49

  25.2

  41

  Cleveland

  29.6

  56

  27.3

  54

  26.5

  43

  27.1

  26

  Bedfordshire

  29.3

  57

  27.3

  54

  24.9

  52

  26.0

  36

  Dudley

  29.1

  58

  28.9

  43

  25.5

  47

  22.3

  59

  Derbyshire

  29.1

  58

  26.9

  57

  24.6

  54

  22.4

  58

  South Tyneside

  28.2

  60

  26.8

  59

  22.2

  68

  18.3

  79

  Durham

  28.1

  61

  26.3

  63

  23.4

  59

  21.0

  66

  Hounslow

  28.0

  62

  25.2

  67

  25.2

  49

  21.5

  63

  Suffolk

  27.6

  63

  26.6

  60

  24.2

  58

  22.7

  55

  Redbndge

  27.5

  64

  25.3

  66

  25.5

  47

  26.6

  28

  Sheffield

  27.3

  65

  25.9

  64

  22.2

  68

  20.1

  69

  Bury

  26.8

  66

  23.1

  76

  27.7

  33

  26.4

  31

  Walsall

  26.7

  67

  25.5

  65

  23.4

  59

  20.9

  67

  Brent

  26.6

  68

  23.3

  75

  20.6

  78

  19.1

  75

  Newcastle upon Tyne

  26.5

  69

  22.3

  80

  21.6

  74

  17.4

  84

  Leeds

  26.4

  70

  24.3

  71

  22.0

  71

  21.3

  65

  Sunderland

  26.1

  71

  24.1

  72

  21.8

  72

  18.7

  77

  Nottinghamshire

  26.1

  71

  24.7

  69

  23.4

  59

  21.6

  62

  Croydon

  25.9

  73

  22.9

  77

  22.1

  70

  22.7

  55

  Barnsley

  25.8

  74

  26.9

  57

  19.7

  82

  16.9

  87

  Rochdale

  25.7

  75

  24.5

  70

  20.9

  77

  18.7

  77

  Salford

  25.3

  76

  24.9

  68

  23.2

  62

  21.8

  60

  Doncaster

  25.3

  76

  23.6

  73

  21.7

  73

  18.7

  76

  Gateshead

  25.2

  78

  20.7

  85

  20.4

  80

  19.8

  72

  Ealing

  24.9

  79

  21.5

  82

  22.5

  67

  19.2

  74

  Wakefield

  24.5

  80

  20.3

  87

  17.5

  87

  17.6

  83

  Manchester

  24.4

  81

  20.2

  88

  16.4

  90

  15.9

  90

  Coventry

  24.0

  82

  21.3

  83

  21.2

  76

  20.7

  68

  Humberside

  23.1

  83

  23.4

  74

  22.6

  66

  21.5

  63

  Birmingham

  22.7

  84

  22.7

  79

  19.1

  85

  18.3

  79

  Oldham

  22.2

  85

  21.7

  81

  18.1

  86

  15.5

  91

  Wolverhampton

  21.8

  86

  21.2

  84

  19.9

  81

  17.8

  82

  St Helens

  21.1

  87

  22.9

  77

  20.5

  79

  23.2

  54

  Hanngey

  20.9

  88

  19.8

  89

  16.6

  89

  17.3

  85

  Wdltham Forest

  20.9

  88

  17.7

  91

  12.7

  94

  11.3

  95

  Liverpool

  19.7

  90

  20.7

  85

  19.4

  84

  17.9

  81

  Bradford

  19.1

  91

  17.8

  90

  16.9

  88

  16.0

  89

  Sandwell

  19.0

  92

  17.4

  92

  15.5

  92

  14.6

  92

  Inner London Boroughs'

  18.6

  93

  17.4

  92

  15.9

  91

  16.1

  88

  Knowsley

  16.6

  94

  11.6

  96

  8.5

  96

  10.0

  96

  Newham

  14.5

  95

  14.3

  94

  14.9

  93

  14.3

  93

  Barking and Dagenham

  12.4

  96

  13.6

  95

  11.3

  95

  11.8

  94

  Total

  30.9

  28.6

  25.8

  24.4

  Mrs. Gorman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he will publish a list of local education authorities in England in rank order by the percentage of pupils achieving three A levels in the last year for which information is available, showing in each case(a) that percentage and (b) the rank order position and percentage for each of the previous four years.

  School leavers statistical file 1990–91 revised 3 July 1992 Maintained schools only

  Percentage of school leavers with three or more A/AS level passes

  1988–89 to 1990–91

  1987–88 to 1989–90

  1986–87 to 1988–89

  1985–86 to 1987–88

  Per cent.

  Rank

  Per cent.

  Rank

  Per cent.

  Rank

  Per cent.

  Rank

  Buckinghamshire

  21.8

  1

  18.5

  1

  15.6

  2

  13.5

  3

  Barnet

  21.3

  2

  18.1

  2

  18.0

  1

  17.7

  1

  North Yorkshire

  18.6

  3

  16.9

  3

  13.8

  3

  12.9

  4

  Sutton

  18.3

  4

  13.3

  11

  13.8

  4

  14.4

  2

  Stockport

  16.7

  5

  14.0

  8

  12.4

  8

  10.5

  17

  Wirral

  16.5

  6

  15.2

  4

  12.8

  6

  11.1

  11

  Cheshire

  16.4

  7

  14.2

  6

  11.6

  15

  11.2

  10

  Northumberland

  16.2

  8

  14.7

  5

  12.5

  7

  11.4

  9

  Kingston upon Thames

  16.1

  9

  12.3

  17

  11.6

  15

  10.7

  14

  Cambridgeshire

  15.6

  10

  13.0

  13

  10.3

  21

  7.9

  41

  Hertfordshire

  15.4

  11

  13.7

  9

  11.8

  13

  9.9

  19

  Solihull

  15.2

  12

  12.0

  20

  11.7

  14

  11.7

  7

  Enfield

  14.7

  13

  12.3

  17

  10.1

  24

  8.9

  29

  18
  Mr. Forman
  The attached table gives details of the estimated percentage of school leavers achieving three or more A/AS level passes in rank order. The latest available data are based on a 10 per cent sample of school leavers aggregated over three years (1988–89 to 1990–91) in order to reduce sampling errors. The aggregated figures for the earlier years are also shown.
  19

  1988–89 to 1990–91

  1987–88 to 1989–90

  1986–87 to 1988–89

  1985–86 to 1987–88

  Per cent.

  Rank

  Per cent.

  Rank

  Per cent.

  Rank

  Per cent.

  Rank

  Trafford

  14.7

  13

  12.4

  15

  12.4

  8

  12.3

  5

  Berkshire

  14.6

  15

  14.2

  6

  12.9

  5

  11.5

  8

  Warwickshire

  14.5

  16

  13.0

  13

  11.9

  11

  10.6

  16

  West Sussex

  14.3

  17

  12.4

  15

  10.6

  18

  9.5

  21

  Sefton

  13.6

  18

  12.3

  17

  10.4

  20

  11.0

  13

  Gloucestershire

  13.6

  18

  12.0

  20

  10.6

  18

  9.3

  25

  Cumbria

  13.3

  20

  11.7

  23

  11.0

  17

  10.1

  18

  Surrey

  13.3

  20

  13.1

  12

  11.9

  11

  12.0

  6

  East Sussex

  12.9

  22

  11.1

  29

  10.1

  24

  8.7

  32

  Leicestershire

  12.8

  23

  11.5

  27

  10.3

  21

  9.6

  20

  Bromley

  12.7

  24

  13.4

  10

  12.2

  10

  11.1

  11

  Bedfordshire

  12.7

  24

  9.6

  43

  9.0

  36

  8.6

  34

  Hereford and Worcester

  12.7

  24

  11.7

  23

  10.1

  24

  9.4

  23

  Kent

  12.7

  24

  11.1

  29

  9.6

  30

  9.4

  23

  Bolton

  12.5

  28

  10.7

  31

  9.1

  34

  9.3

  25

  Cleveland

  12.5

  28

  10.4

  35

  9.1

  34

  8.4

  37

  Rotherham

  12.3

  30

  11.6

  26

  9.3

  32

  7.9

  41

  North Tyneside

  12.1

  31

  10.6

  32

  8.2

  46

  7.3

  51

  St. Helens

  12.0

  32

  10.1

  39

  9.2

  33

  8.5

  35

  Calderdale

  12.0

  32

  11.3

  28

  9.0

  36

  8.9

  29

  Kirklees

  12.0

  32

  11.9

  22

  9.8

  28

  9.0

  27

  Redbridge

  11.7

  35

  10.6

  32

  10.2

  23

  10.7

  14

  Leeds

  11.6

  36

  9.3

  47

  8.3

  45

  7.8

  44

  Essex

  11.4

  37

  10.0

  40

  8.6

  40

  7.7

  45

  Lincolnshire

  11.3

  38

  9.5

  44

  8.9

  38

  8.4

  37

  Bexley

  11.1

  39

  10.3

  36

  7.9

  50

  8.5

  35

  Manchester

  11.1

  39

  9.9

  42

  8.6

  40

  7.5

  48

  Wigan

  11.1

  39

  10.2

  37

  9.7

  29

  9.0

  27

  Shropshire

  11.1

  39

  10.5

  34

  9.4

  31

  8.8

  31

  Staffordshire

  11.1

  39

  9.5

  44

  8.6

  40

  7.6

  46

  Dorset

  10.8

  44

  8.6

  54

  7.2

  59

  6.8

  59

  Croydon

  10.7

  45

  9.5

  44

  7.2

  59

  7.4

  49

  Hampshire

  10.6

  46

  9.1

  49

  8.0

  48

  7.3

  51

  Oxfordshire

  10.4

  47

  10.2

  37

  10.0

  27

  9.5

  21

  Isle of Wight

  10.3

  48

  11.7

  23

  8.6

  40

  6.2

  66

  Salford

  10.1

  49

  6.8

  75

  8.2

  46

  7.9

  41

  Tameside

  10.1

  49

  10.0

  40

  8.7

  39

  8.1

  39

  Nottinghamshire

  10.1

  49

  9.3

  47

  8.0

  48

  7.0

  56

  Ealing

  10.0

  52

  8.1

  63

  7.7

  53

  6.1

  70

  Wiltshire

  10.0

  52

  8.3

  60

  7.0

  64

  5.8

  73

  Birmingham

  9.7

  54

  8.5

  57

  6.7

  68

  5.8

  73

  Avon

  9.6

  55

  8.8

  52

  7.7

  53

  7.0

  56

  Hillingdon

  9.5

  56

  7.7

  69

  6.1

  77

  5.6

  75

  Merton

  9.5

  56

  8.3

  60

  7.5

  56

  7.6

  46

  Havering

  11.4

  58

  7.2

  74

  6.3

  75

  6.7

  60

  Newcastle upon Tyne

  9.3

  59

  7.4

  73

  6.1

  77

  5.3

  82

  Walsall

  9.1

  60

  8.9

  51

  7.9

  50

  7.4

  49

  Sheffield

  9.1

  60

  7.6

  71

  7.2

  59

  6.3

  63

  Derbyshire

  9.1

  60

  9.0

  50

  7.8

  52

  7.1

  54

  Devon

  9.1

  60

  7.7

  69

  6.7

  68

  6.3

  63

  Doncaster

  9.0

  64

  8.5

  57

  8.4

  44

  7.3

  51

  Norfolk

  8.7

  65

  7.5

  72

  6.5

  72

  6.1

  70

  Lancashire

  8.4

  66

  7.8

  68

  6.3

  75

  6.2

  66

  Bradford

  8.3

  67

  6.4

  78

  5.9

  79

  5.2

  83

  Humberside

  8.3

  67

  7.9

  66

  7.2

  59

  6.9

  58

  Northamptonshire

  8.3

  67

  8.4

  59

  6.7

  68

  6.6

  61

  Suffolk

  8.3

  67

  8.2

  62

  7.4

  57

  26.

  66

  Dudley

  8.2

  71

  8.7

  53

  7.0

  64

  6.1

  70

  Oldham

  8.2

  71

  8.1

  63

  7.2

  59

  5.5

  77

  Cornwall and Isles of Scilly

  8.2

  71

  8.6

  54

  6.8

  66

  6.2

  66

  Wolverhampton

  8.0

  74

  6.7

  77

  6.5

  72

  5.6

  75

  Hounslow

  7.9

  75

  8.0

  65

  7.4

  57

  6.3

  63

  Brent

  7.7

  76

  8.6

  54

  6.4

  74

  5.4

  78

  Waltham Forest

  7.4

  77

  5.5

  83

  3.6

  89

  3.8

  90

  Liverpool

  7.2

  78

  7.9

  66

  7.6

  55

  7.1

  54

  Coventry

  7.0

  79

  5.9

  81

  6.7

  68

  5.4

  78

  Gateshead

  7.0

  79

  4.2

  88

  4.7

  84

  4.7

  85

  Somerset

  7.0

  79

  5.3

  84

  4.2

  88

  3.9

  88

  Harrow

  6.5

  82

  6.3

  79

  5.5

  82

  8.0

  40

  Durham

  6.4

  83

  5.8

  82

  5.5

  82

  5.4

  78

  Sunderland

  5.7

  84

  6.0

  80

  4.3

  87

  3.4

  91

  Sandwell

  5.6

  85

  4.1

  89

  2.9

  93

  2.6

  94

  Rochdale

  5.2

  86

  6.8

  75

  6.8

  66

  6.4

  62

  Wakefield

  5.0

  87

  5.3

  84

  4.5

  86

  4.3

  87

  Bury

  4.9

  88

  3.7

  91

  5.6

  81

  8.7

  32

  Inner London Boroughs

  4.5

  89

  4.4

  87

  4.6

  85

  4.5

  86

  Haringey

  4.2

  90

  3.9

  90

  3.6

  89

  3.9

  88

  20 21

  1988–89 to 1990–91

  1987–88 to 1989–90

  1986–87 to 1988–89

  1985–86 to 1987–88

  Per cent.

  Rank

  Per cent.

  Rank

  Per cent.

  Rank

  Per cent.

  Rank

  Barnsley

  4.0

  91

  5.2

  86

  5.7

  80

  5.4

  78

  Barking and Dagenham

  3.7

  92

  3.5

  92

  3.3

  91

  3.4

  91

  Knowsley

  3.1

  93

  2.3

  95

  1.3

  95

  2.0

  95

  Newham

  2.0

  94

  2.4

  94

  2.6

  94

  2.9

  93

  South Tyneside

  1.3

  95

  2.8

  93

  3.2

  92

  4.9

  84

  Richmond upon Thames

  0.0

  96

  0.0

  96

  0.0

  96

  0.0

  96

  Total

  10.8

  9.6

  8.5

  7.8

  Note: The figures used in this reply have been estimated from the School Examination Survey, formerly the School Leavers Survey. This survey is based on a 10 per cent. sample and therefore the estimated LEA figures have been aggregated over three years in order to reduce the effect of sampling errors.

  Some local education authorities provide a substantial proportion of their A level teaching in tertiary or other establishments than secondary schools. The tables do not include statistics showing results arising from such provision.

  Pre-school Education
  Ms. Janet Anderson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education what representations he has received concerning the standard spending assessment criteria for under-fives provision in Lancashire.

  Mr. Forth
  My right hon. Friend has received letters from several hon. Members who represent Lancashire constituencies, including the hon. Member for Rossendale and Darwen (Ms. Anderson).

  Mrs. Dunwoody
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education what percentage of three and four-year-olds are in nursery education in Britain.

  Mr. Forth
  Nursery education in Wales and Scotland is the responsibility of my right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Wales and Scotland. Fifty-one per cent. of three and four-year-olds attended maintained and independent schools in England in January 1991. The figure for maintained schools alone was 48 per cent., that for maintained nursery schools and nursery classes of primary schools was 25 per cent.

  Student Numbers
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education what representations he has had from the Committee of Vice Chancellors and Principals concerning the real-terms increase in funding required to cope with growth in student numbers as regards(a) buildings, (b) plant and equipment, (c) academic and (d) non-academic staff.

  Mr. Forman
  My right hon. Friend received the CVCP's statement on the 1992 public expenditure survey which was published last May, covering all of these areas. The CVCP's views will be taken into account alongside advice from the Higher Education Funding Council for England and others.

  Surplus School Places
  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education what consultations he has had, or intends to initiate, with statutory, religious, professional, charitable, and voluntary organisations whose current function or roles are of significance in the operation of the schools system, as presently in operation, prior to the publication of a Bill designed to implement the proposals descrilbed in Cm. 2021.

  Mr. Forth
  My right hon. Friend has already received some 850 responses to his White Paper proposals. He, his 22
  ministerial colleagues and his officials at the Department for Education have also held meetings with representatives of the local authority associations, the churches and other interested bodies. All these responses and comments will be carefully considered before the publication of a Bill.

  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education, pursuant to his statement concerning the savings he expects to accrue from the reduction, or elimination, of claimed surplus places in schools, on page 57 of Cm. 2021, if he will state the approximate amount of actual expenditure he hopes to save, together with the relevant arithmetical calculations.

  Mr. Forth
  The Department is currently consulting LEAs on the scope for removing surplus places on the basis of its estimate that in 1991 there were up to 1.5 million surplus places in England. The costs associated with surplus places vary considerably according to the particular circumstances, and not all of them can practicably be removed. It is therefore not possible to provide the information requested at this stage.

  School Reports
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he will list the local education authorities that issued a school report to parents of their child's progress at the end of the 1991–92 school year.

  Mr. Forth
  The duty to send all parents an annual written report on their child's progress rests with the head teachers of all maintained schools. In 1992, head teachers were required to send written annual reports in respect of all school pupils of, and above, compulsory school age.

  School Sizes
  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education in the calculation of teaching space per pupil place in secondary schools, what add-on factor of space he requires to permit teaching of small classes or groups, minimum movement of staff or pupils, and flexibility in construction of the timetable.

  Mr. Forth
  The requirements as to minimum teaching area in the Education (School Premises) Regulations 1981 apply to the school as a whole based on the number and age of the pupils. The only specific requirement for the disposition of this area relates to study and social accommodation for pupils who have attained the age of 16. The details of the organisation of the teaching area are a matter for the school. No minimum area standard is
  23
  specified for the movement of staff or pupils but the regulations do require that school buildings shall be adequate for the "convenient passage of persons".

  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he will state the current area of floor space now constituting a place within each primary and secondary school, respectively, together with the minimum areas he expects or requires to be allocated to teaching, circulation, assembly, kitchen and eating, staff, storage, and convenience or other non-teaching space, as an actual proportion of floor space for both categories of school.

  Mr. Forth
  The minimum teaching areas for maintained and grant-maintained schools are set out in schedule 4 of the Education (School Premises) Regulations 1981. They are related to the number and age of pupils in the school. There are no statutory minimum area requirements for circulation, assembly, kitchen and eating, staff, storage or other non-teaching space, which are a matter for local discretion, subject to the general requirements of the regulations.

  Mature Students
  Ms. Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education what representations she has received about tuition fees and grant aid for mature students who withdrew from courses in the past, and who now wish to recommence further education; and if he will make a statement relating to award regulations.

  Mr. Forman
  My right hon. Friend receives representations from time to time on this matter. Under the present regulations, a mandatory award is not normally available for a second higher education course if a student has previously attended a higher education course of more than two years' duration with the help of an award. But, exceptionally, a student whose previous attendance did not exceed one term and seven weeks of a second term, or was at a long term residential adult education college, is eligible for another mandatory award. The regulations also allow a student to transfer with a mandatory award from one course to another, in certain circumstances. A student ineligible for a mandatory award may apply to his local authority for a discretionary award.

  Religious Education
  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education, pursuant to his answer of 3 July,Official Report, column 713, what plans he has for funding the standing advisory committees for religious education, or their equivalents, if plans described in Cm. 2021, are implemented.

  Mr. Forth
  Under the proposals set out in the White paper, "Choice and Diversity" (Cm. 2021), local education authorities would remain responsible for establishing and funding standing advisory councils on religious education.

  Higher Education
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he will establish a pay review body for higher education academic staff.

  Mr. Forman
  As we have made clear on a number of occasions in the House and elsewhere, my right hon. Friend has no intention of establishing such a pay review body.

  GCSE
  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education whether he requested Her Majesty's inspectorate of education to consider and report on the three aspects of the GCSE examinations in its recent report; and if he will indicate the date and nature of similar requests previously made by a Secretary of State and the reference of the relevant published report.

  Mr. Forth
  The recent report on GCSE examining standards in 1992 is the only published report by HMI on the conduct of GCSE examinations. It was not specifically commissioned by my right hon. Friend, but the previous Minister of State did ask HM inspectorate to monitor awarding procedures with especial care following concerns expressed by them in connection with the 1991 examinations.

  Mr. Bennett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education what evidence he has as to the cost of providing each pupil with the Shakespearian texts he has added to the GCSE syllabuses; and how much extra he is allocating to schools to meet this expenditure.

  Mr. Forth
  The works of Shakespeare have traditionally been included in most GCSE English syllabuses. My right hon. Friend, however, decided that 14-year-olds should be tested on their knowledge of a Shakespeare play—chosen from "Julius Caesar", "A Midsummer Night's Dream" and "Romeo and Juliet"—in the first national curriculum tests of this age group in English in 1993. The plays selected were chosen in part because a supply of at least one of the chosen plays can be found in most schools.

  Some schools may need to top up their current stock. In doing so, schools will be able to draw on the £15 million worth of schools' expenditure specifically on national curriculum books which the Government have supported through the 1992–1993 grants for education support and training programme.

  Special Needs Pupils
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he will make it his policy to introduce proposals to amend the Education Act 1981 in order specifically to state which authority has the responsibility for providing therapy back-up for special needs pupils.

  Mr. Forth
  The Department's circular 22/89 on "Assessments and Statements of Special Educational Needs: Procedures within the Education, Health and Social Services" contains guidance on the need for local education authorities to work closely with district health authorities and social services departments on the provision of non-educational services to pupils with special educational needs.

  The addendum to circular 22/89, published in March 1992, offers further advice to authorities on responsibilities for the provision of speech therapy. I do not consider that any further clarification of the responsibility for providing speech and other therapy services is necessary.

  A-Levels
  Mrs. Dunwoody
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he will make a statement on his proposals to increase access to higher education for students unable to succeed at the A-level exams.
  25
  Mr. Forman
  Universities and colleges are responsible for setting entry standards to ensure that students have the necessary intellectual competence to benefit from higher education. A-levels are traditional indicators of such competence, but they are by no means the only ones.

  Institutions are becoming more prepared to consider qualifications other than A-levels and their Scottish equivalent. More than 20 per cent. of those entering full-time first degree courses in 1990 did so on the basis of such qualifications. We welcome such flexibility, and are promoting the development of vocational and other routes into higher education.

  We are introducing general national vocational qualifications—GNVQs—which offer a broadly based preparation for work and an alternative ladder to higher education. GNVQs at level 3 will be as demanding as A-levels.

  We have encouraged the development of access courses for mature students without traditional entry qualifications for higher education. There are now well over 1000 such courses.

  Education Expenditure
  Mrs. Dunwoody
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education what percentage of the national income was spent on education in(a) 1979, (b) 1985 and (c)

  Mr. Forman
  The information requested is as follows:

  Financial year

  UK general Government expenditure on education as a percentage of GDP

  1978–79

  5.4

  1984–85

  5.0

  1991–921

  5.0

  1Estimated.

  Secondary Schools
  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education, in respect of determining the current expenditure limit on the basic needs building costs of a new secondary school place, what ratio is assumed between the notional number of pupils in the school and the actual pupil capacity in learning space at any one time which is the minimum necessary to ensure the essential flexibility required in a timetable for a fully occupied school meeting the requirements of the national curriculum.

  Mr. Forth
  In determining the distribution of annual capital guidelines to LEAs, allowance for the provision of new schools places is made on the basis of cost multipliers. These reflect the average cost of providing a new school place. They are based on actual LEA building projects, which are themselves subject to the space provision requirements of the school premises regulations.

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS

  Iraq
  Mr. Townsend
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) what proposals he has to obtain relief for British business men whose firms have suffered from the freezing of Iraqi assets held in the United Kingdom;

  (2) what action he intends to take to deal with the release of Iraqi funds held in the United Kingdom for (a) the settlement of United Kingdom creditors' claims in respect of legitimate trade with Iraq prior to the imposition of sanctions and (b) the financing of trade in goods not embargoed under United Nations Security Council resolutions.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  United Nations Security Council Resolution 778 provides for the temporary sequestration of certain unencumbered frozen Iraqi assets to be paid into a UN-administered account to fund UN operations in Iraq and to provide interim funding for the UN compensation commission and fund. The resolution expressly forbids the release of assets for the financing of trade in goods not embargoed, except to the sub-account of the UN escrow account or directly to the United Nations for humanitarian activities in Iraq.

  British companies may claim from the compensation fund for direct losses as a result of Iraq's invasion and occupation of Kuwait. Losses resulting from the operation of the UN embargo and related measures are not within the scope of the compensation commission. The same is true of debts and obligations of Iraq arising prior to 2 August 1990, which should be pursued through the normal mechanisms.

  Miss Emma Nicholson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make it his policy that the essential aim of the British Government's action in the post-Gulf war situation should be the establishment of peace and democracy in Iraq.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  We aim to ensure that Iraq implements its obligations under all the relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions in full. These include the elimination of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction so that Iraq can never again build a capacity to threaten its neighbours with nuclear, chemical or biological weapons; and arrangements for compensation for those who suffered as a result of Iraq's invasion of Kuwait.

  We want to see a democratic and pluralistic system in Iraq in which all sectors of the population would enjoy respect for political and human rights. It is difficult to see how this can be achieved while Saddam Hussein remains in power.

  Miss Emma Nicholson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what is his estimate of the number of Iraqi Shias sheltering in the marshes; what information he has of air attacks on Iraqi Shias in the marshes and of the continued use by Iraqi forces of chemical weapons; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  It is difficult to obtain accurate information about the number of people in and around the marshes of southern Iraq but we believe that there are about 200,000 people in the area. There have been no flights of Iraqi aircraft over the marshes since the
  27
  imposition of the no-fly zone on 27 August. We have no conclusive evidence of the use of chemical weapons by Iraqi forces.

  Sri Lanka
  Mr. Cox
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he has made to the Government of Sri Lanka to ensure the safety and protection of the Tamil community during the present military security actions now taking place in Sri Lanka.

  Mr. Lennox-Boyd
  We have frequently made clear our concern to the Government of Sri Lanka that they should conduct the anti-terrorist campaign against the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam with full respect for the security and human rights of civilians. I emphasised this during my recent visit there. We shall continue to watch the situation closely.

  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he has had with the Government of Sri Lanka concerning human rights abuses; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Lennox-Boyd
  We have taken every opportunity to raise human rights issues with the Sri Lankan authorities, including during my recent visit there. There has been a marked improvement in Sri Lanka's human rights performance over the last year. We shall continue to watch the situation closely.

  Law of the Sea
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the informal consultations which the United Kingdom Government have been participating in regarding the United Nations convention on the law of the sea.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  The United Kingdom Government participated in the last round of informal consultations convened by the Secretary General in August 1992, with a view to resolving the difficulties over the seabed mining provisions of the United Nations convention on the law of the sea (part XI).

  There was some progress in analysing the problem areas and we shall be participating in the next round of consultations.

  Research Projects
  Mr. Livingstone
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, pursuant to his answer of 29 June,Official Report, column 410, if he will list the seven research projects, detailing the institutions involved and the value of each project; and what change in the number of these projects in universities and polytechnics there has been since 1979.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  The seven research projects referred to in my answer of 29 June were as follows:

  (a) Cambridge university, department of pure mathematics and mathematical studies, research fellowship, £109,683 over three years.

  (b) Oxford university, Merton college research fellowship (this fellowship is with the college as a whole rather than with college department), £109,000 over three years.

  (c) York university, department of electronics, electrical screening measurements, £101,823 over three years.

  28

  (d) York university, department of electronics, induction field wave impedence effects, £53,055 over three years.

  (e) Leicester university, department of physics, development and construction of data collection and processing unit for HF radio propagation measurements, £33,151 over one year.

  (f) Leicester university, department of physics, analysis of HF radio propagation measurements with reference to high latitude effects, £35,392 over three years.

  (g) Leicester university, department of physics, analysis of HF radio propagation measurements, £64,849 over one year.

  All these projects are still current (or have been renewed) except for that with York university on induction wave impedence.

  The foregoing list omitted two recently signed contracts with York university for:

  (h) classification of fax image, worth £5,000.

  (i) research support in the field of communications simulation and modelling, worth £14,547.

  A further contract has since been signed with the Gloucester college of higher education for work on fax image counter orientation image worth £10,000.

  The number of projects is subject to change, but to the best of GCHQ's knowledge in the time available there were four contracts current in 1979, with the universities of Loughborough, Leicester, Birmingham and Surrey. The total value of these was £69,000 in 1979.

  European Union
  Mr. Cash
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what attempts he has made to extend the provisions of title VI, article K.3(2) of the Maastricht treaty permitting initiation by member states to cover other aspects of Community policy making.

  Mr. Garel-Jones
  Article K3.2 is one of the provisions governing intergovernmental cooperation, where the Community institutions operate under different rules than under the treaty of Rome. The article could not therefore he extended to cover areas of Community policy.

  Mr. Cash
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what proposals he has to alter the status of the United Kingdom within the United Nations as a result of article J2(3) of the treaty on European union.

  Mr. Garel-Jones
  The text of the treaty on European union does not necessitate any alteration of the status of the United Kingdom within the United Nations. Article J.5(4) of the treaty safeguards the United Kingdom's ability to fulfil its responsibilities as a permanent member of the Security Council effectively.

  Mr. Cash
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has made of the effect on the overseas responsibility of the United Kingdom, including the dependencies of Hong Kong and the Falkland islands, and in Cyprus and Belize, of the common foreign and security policy under article J1(1) of the treaty on European union.

  Mr. Garel-Jones
  Implementation of the common foreign and security policy under article J1(1) of the treaty on European union will not alter the United Kingdom's existing overseas responsibilities. Further, the "Declaration on the representation of the interests of the overseas countries and territories referred to in article 227(3) and (5) (a) and (b) of the Treaty establishing the European Community" (annexed to the Maastricht treaty)
  29
  confirms our right and that of other member states to represent the interests of their dependencies in the exceptional case of a divergence between their interests and those of the union. Nor will the common foreign and security policy affect the United Kingdom's military commitments in Cyprus and Belize.

  European Ombudsman
  Mr. Cash
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps the Government will take to facilitate any inquiries into maladministration by European Community institutions in the United Kingdom which might be made by the Ombudsman of the European Parliament.

  Mr. Garel-Jones
  Since the ombudsman is to enquire into maladministration by Community institutions or bodies it will be for those institutions and bodies themselves to facilitate his or her inquiries.

  Cyprus
  Mr. O'Hara
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he will take during the forthcoming round of talks on Cyprus to be held in New York under the auspices of the Secretary General of the United Nations to effect a resolution of the issue of the Greek Cypriots who have been missing since 1974; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Garel-Jones
  The problem of missing persons is one of the most tragic aspects of the Cyprus dispute. We are making every effort to support the United Nations Secretary General in his work for a just overall settlement in Cyprus.

  Mr. O'Hara
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what is the response or his Department to Council of Europe Document 6589 on the demographic structure of the Cypriot communities; and if this response will be made when this document is discussed at the Council of Europe meeting in Strasbourg in October.

  Mr. Garel-Jones
  The Foreign and Commonwealth Office regards Council of Europe document 6589 as a useful contribution to the limited knowledge on this subject.

  This response was not given when the report came before the Council of Europe Parliamentary Assembly as the Members of Parliament who attend it to speak in their own capacities and not as Government representatives.

  Mr. O'Hara
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what is Her Majesty's Government's policy as to the extent to which officers of the British High Commission in Cyprus should encourage British parliamentarians on visits to Cyprus to visit the occupied areas in the north; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Garel-Jones
  As a courtesy to visiting parliamentarians, our High Commissioner in Nicosia offers to arrange appointments with members of either Cypriot community or both.

  Mr. Deva
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will take steps towards permitting international commercial air services to northern Cyprus direct from the United Kingdom.
  30
  Mr. Garel-Jones
  No. Direct flights to northern Cyprus are permitted by no country except Turkey.

  Mr. John D. Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many diplomats serve in the United Kingdom commission in Nicosia, Cyprus; how many of these have previous experience of service in Greece and Turkey; and what is his policy on ensuring a balance of experience in this high commission office.

  Mr. Garel-Jones
  There are 15 accredited diplomats in the British high commission, Nicosia. Of these two have previously served in Greece. Our policy on staffing the high commission is to ensure that the best available officers are sent to Nicosia and that both Turkish and Greek speakers are on the staff.

  UK Nationals (Deaths Abroad)
  Mr. Nigel Griffiths
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent steps have been taken to record the number of United Kingdom nationals who die abroad.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  Our posts report, and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office records, the deaths of British nationals abroad in the following circumstances:(a) where substantial assistance of a consular official has been requested, and provided:
  and/or
  (b) where consular death registration has been effected.
  There is no requirement for the death of a British national overseas to be registered at a British consulate.

  Mr. Nigel Griffiths
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make further representations to the Spanish Government to secure the prosecution of those responsible for the death of Gary Maher in Tenerife in 1985.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  The Spanish authorities investigating this case concluded in August 1992 that there was insufficient evidence to bring a prosecution, and the case was closed. It can be re-opened at any time if new evidence is produced.

  Mr. Nigel Griffiths
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is taking to facilitate a second opinion on the diagnosis of Spanish doctors to ensure that they do not misdiagnose the cause of death of United Kingdom nationals in Spain.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  One way of obtaining a second opinion on the cause of death of a British national in Spain, following an inquest in Spain, is to repatriate the body to the United Kingdom. When the body of a British national dying abroad from other than natural causes is repatriated to this country, coroners in England and in Wales must hold an inquest. In Scotland the Procurator Fiscal's office is not obliged to conduct a fatal accident inquiry.

  Mr. Nigel Griffiths
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs in what circumstances an autopsy is performed or an inquest held on United Kingdom subjects who have died abroad.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  The decision to hold an autopsy or inquest overseas on a United Kingdom subject who has died abroad follows the law of the land in which the person died.
  31
  Where the body of a British national dying abroad from other than natural cause is repatriated to this country, coroners in England and Wales must hold an inquest. In Scotland the Procurator Fiscal's office is not obliged to conduct a fatal accident inquiry.

  A coroner may call for an autopsy should he consider one necessary to complete the inquest.

  Mr. Nigel Griffiths
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he has made to the Spanish Government over United Kingdom nationals who are left untreated in hospital wards pending checks on their insurance cover.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  We have not been notified of any such cases.

  Mr. Nigel Griffiths
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make representations to the Spanish Government to ensure that a full court hearing is held in Spain on the death of Gary Maher in Tenerife in 1985; and what explanation he has received for the delay.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  It would be wrong for us to try to influence Spanish judicial procedures. The Spanish authorities have already decided, after a full investigation, that the criminal case should be closed because of insufficient evidence to bring a prosecution. The civil case, which is a private matter, continues.

  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what changes he has made or intends to make in the procedures for informing relatives when British citizens die abroad on holiday.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  Following a recent case in which the organisation which had undertaken to break the news of a British national's death overseas to the next of kin failed to do so, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office has introduced procedures for checking in all cases that such undertakings are met.

  BBC World Service
  Mr. Jenkin
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what plans he has to commence BBC World Service broadcasts to Uzbekistan in Uzbeki and to Albania in Albanian.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  There are no plans at present for the BBC World Service to introduce an Uzbek service to Uzbekistan. Broadcasts in Albanian to Albania will commence shortly, as soon as the BBC World Service has recruited the necessary staff. The planned output will be one hour per day.

  CSCE
  Sir Dudley Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the resolutions passed at the first meeting of the CSCE Assembly, held in Budapest.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  I refer my hon. Friend to the answer that I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Atkinson) on 9 July 1992 at column 278.

  Association Agreements
  Mr. George Robertson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he intends to proceed with ratification of the association agreements with(a) Poland, (b) Czechoslovakia and (c) Hungary.

  Mr. Garel-Jones
  Draft Orders in Council designating the EC association agreements with Poland and Hungary as Community treaties under section 1 of the European Communities Act 1972 will be laid before Parliament shortly. United Kingdom ratification will be concluded once the designation procedure has been completed. This requires affirmative resolutions from both Houses of Parliament. No further steps will be taken at this stage on the Czechoslovakia agreement pending decisions on the future of the federation.

  Treaty of Rome
  Mr. Cash
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what proposals he has made to amend the treaty of Rome to allow non-European states to become EC members.

  Mr. Garel-Jones
  The treaty of Rome provides that any European state may apply for membership of the Community. There are no proposals to amend the treaty to allow non-European states to become EC members.

  European Security Policy
  Mr. Cash
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what changes he will propose to the structure of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation in the light of the implementation of a common European security policy by article. J1 of the treaty on European union.

  Mr. Garel-Jones
  The position of the United Kingdom as a signatory of the North Atlantic treaty will not be affected by a common foreign and security policy. The Maastricht treaty (article J.4.4) makes it clear that the common foreign and security policy"shall respect the obligations of certain member states under the North Atlantic treaty and be compatible with the common security and defence policy established within that framework."

  Macedonia
  Sir Russell Johnston
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he will open diplomatic relations with Macedonia; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  Since Her Majesty's Government have not recognised the republic as an independent state, the question of opening diplomatic relations has not arisen.

  Deregulation
  Mr. Sproat
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what financial provisions, and how much, he has made within his Department in order to look at the potential for deregulation of each of the regulatory measures for which he has responsibility.

  Mr. Garel-Jones
  I am not responsible for any regulatory measures.

  Western Sahara
  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) what actions have been taken at the United Nations to ensure that the proposed referendum in the western Sahara takes place;

  (2) what discussions he has had with the Government of Morocco concerning the referendum in the western Sahara; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  During my visit to Morocco earlier this year, I underlined the need for parties to co-operate fully with the UN Secretary General in his efforts to resolve this dispute. Differences over who should be eligible to vote in the proposed referendum have delayed the implementation of the UN settlement plan, but the Secretary General and his special representative have been working hard to try to overcome these differences. The Secretary General is expected to make a further report to the Security Council in the next few weeks. As a permanent member of the Security Council, we shall continue to give our full support to the Secretary General.

  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has had with the Government of France concerning the referendum in the western Sahara.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  Officials have regularly discussed the Western Sahara with the French. It has been discussed at ministerial level in the framework of European political co-operation.

  Bangladesh
  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has had with the Government of Bangladesh concerning the allegations of human rights abuse in the Chittagong hill tracts; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Lennox-Boyd
  We continue to be concerned about reports of human rights abuses in the Chittagong hill tracts. My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Department. raised the matter with the Bangladesh Home Minister on 29 September.

  International Investments Ltd., Gibraltar
  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will investigate the circumstances which led to the collapse of International Investments Ltd., Gibraltar, and seek compensation for British subjects whose investments were misappropriated.

  Mr. Garel-Jones
  I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer given on 14 July 1992 by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland in reply to a previous question on this subject by the hon. Member for Antrim, East (Mr. Beggs) International Investments Limited was registered in Gibraltar, not in the United Kingdom, and this is therefore a matter for the Gibraltar authorities, not Her Majesty's Government.

  Falkland Islands
  Mr. Shersby
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what conclusions he has reached as a result of studying the recent Argentinian/ Chilean joint declaration concerning territorial disputes; what are the implications for the Falkland Islands; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Garel-Jones
  There are no implications for the future of the islands: sovereignty is not for negotiation. We have repeatedly made that clear to the Argentine Government, and have reminded them and the Chilean Government of that since the joint declaration.

  Russia (Seal Culling)
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what written representations he has made to the Russian authorities concerning seal culling; if he will make it his policy to place a copy of any such representations in the Library; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  We continue to draw the attention of the Russian authorities to public concern in the United Kingdom about the seal culling.

  Consular Services
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will list the circumstances under which he advises British holidaymakers abroad to contact the consular services.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  There are numerous circumstances in which British holidaymakers abroad may seek help or advice from British Consulates. They include:

  i. heightened danger from civil unrest;

  ii. arrest and/or imprisonment;

  iii. death of a British national or serious injury;

  iv. lost or stolen passports, tickets or money;

  v. need for help with repatriation;

  vi. requests for general information, such as names of lawyers, doctors, dentists, translators;

  vii. requests for travel advice.

  China (Death Penalty)
  Mr. Fraser
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what further representations have been made to the Government of China about the use of the death penalty in that country for offences other than murder.

  Mr. Garel-Jones
  We have made no specific representations on this point. The Chinese Government have been made aware repeatedly of the widespread concern in this country about human rights abuses of all kinds which occur in China.

  Yugoslavia
  Mr. Winnick
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when it is intended for names to be put on the list of those held to be responsible for crimes against humanity in the current fighting in the former Yugoslavian state; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  UN Security Council resolution 771 calls on all states to submit substantiated information
  35
  on "grave breaches" of international humanitarian law in the former Yugoslavia to the UN Secretary-General. Her Majesty's Government will submit any such information they receive as requested.

  South Africa
  Mr. Luff
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what is the policy of the British Council on the encouragement of cultural exchanges between Britain and South Africa; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  The British Council's policy in South Africa is to promote Britain's role as a key partner

  Number of Visits to UK (including British Council fellows)

  Financial support

  Number of Visits from UK

  Financial support

  (£)

  (£)

  1989–90

  English Language

  13

  21,868

  4

  4,893

  Science and technology

  6

  35,024

  —

  —

  Education and social science

  50

  132,433

  8

  15,913

  The arts

  4

  17,314

  2

  2,791

  Total

  73

  206,639

  14

  23,597

  1990–91

  English language

  5

  17,182

  3

  13,844

  Science and technology

  —

  —

  4

  2,508

  Education and social science

  41

  90,121

  18

  38,840

  The arts

  6

  22,016

  5

  10,784

  Total

  52

  129,319

  30

  66,016

  1991–92

  English language

  7

  16,683

  6

  19,376

  Science and technology

  4

  8,826

  1

  1,065

  Education and social science

  47

  96,622

  15

  25,493

  The arts

  6

  16,992

  3

  9,969

  Total

  64

  139,123

  25

  55,903

  British Council
  Mr. Luff
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commomwealth Affairs what are the total funds available to the British Council for supporting cultural exchanges in the current financial year; and if he willl provide a breakdown of the application of these funds by country.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  The Government are giving the British Council grants-in-aid of £116.99 million to support cultural exchanges(including development activities) in the current year.

  British Council country allocations for cultural exchanges in 1992–93 are as follows:

  £000

  Eastern and central Europe

  Bulgaria

  1,463

  Croatia

  1496

  Czechoslovakia

  3,138

  Hungary

  2,902

  Poland

  3,655

  Romania

  1,277

  Slovenia

  1482

  Yugoslavia

  11,093

  Countries with no directorate

  12

  Former Soviet Union and Baltic countries

  Baltic countries

  281

  36
  in education, science, technology and culture by providing British expertise and assistance to those who will be in positions of authority and influence within a democratic, multiracial society. This policy enjoys the full support of the Government.

  Mr. Luff
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will list the cultural exchange visits between Britain and South Africa funded by the British Council in each of the last three financial years; and what was the financial support provided in each case.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  The information is as follows:

  £000

  Russia

  12,870

  Ukraine

  11,481

  Western Europe

  Austria

  750

  Belgium and Luxembourg

  1,370

  Cyprus

  168

  EC: EC Relations Office

  183

  UKRHEEO

  149

  France

  3,266

  Germany

  6,793

  Greece

  1,044

  Ireland

  296

  Italy

  4,240

  Malta

  147

  Netherlands

  823

  Nordic countries

  1,139

  Portugal

  1,343

  Spain

  2,639

  Turkey

  2,622

  Countries with no directorate

  136

  Middle east and north Africa

  Algeria

  792

  Bahrain

  305

  East Jerusalem

  997

  Egypt

  1,334

  Ethiopia

  565

  Israel

  1,336

  Jordan

  634

  37

  £000

  Kuwait

  447

  Morocco

  395

  Oman

  316

  Qatar

  353

  Saudi Arabia

  854

  Sudan

  577

  Syria

  250

  Tunisia

  423

  United Arab Emirates

  353

  Yemen

  189

  Countries with no directorate

  544

  Asia Pacific

  Brunei

  100

  China

  2,105

  Hong Kong

  2,119

  Indonesia

  1,455

  Japan

  5,086

  Malaysia

  1,427

  Philippines

  340

  Singapore

  974

  South Korea

  1,359

  Thailand

  747

  Countries with no directorate

  151

  South Asia

  Bangladesh

  645

  Burma

  248

  India

  4,162

  Nepal

  157

  Pakistan

  1,272

  Sri Lanka

  516

  Countries with no directorate

  0

  South Africa

  South Africa

  847

  Sub-Saharan Africa

  Botswana

  181

  Cameroon

  427

  Ghana

  404

  Kenya

  620

  Lesotho

  216

  Malawi

  300

  Mauritius

  250

  Mozambique

  72

  Namibia

  147

  Nigeria

  1,486

  Senegal

  418

  Sierra Leone

  337

  Swaziland

  63

  Tanzania

  292

  Uganda

  180

  Zambia

  386

  Zimbabwe

  451

  Countries with no directorate

  57

  Latin America and the Caribbean

  Argentina

  856

  Brazil

  2,975

  Caribbean

  378

  Chile

  751

  Colombia

  577

  1988

  1989

  1990

  1991

  1992

  January

  299

  346

  357

  313

  337

  February

  353

  344

  359

  345

  342

  March

  374

  269

  368

  344

  381

  April

  266

  351

  358

  284

  213

  May

  348

  342

  390

  406

  415

  June

  380

  363

  426

  409

  557

  July

  424

  364

  532

  492

  564

  August

  309

  338

  390

  414

  443

  September

  274

  321

  342

  420

  474

  October

  332

  373

  397

  44

  —

  38

  £000

  Ecuador

  214

  Mexico

  959

  Peru

  545

  Venezuela

  606

  Countries with no directorate

  163

  North America, Australia and New Zealand

  Australia

  1,214

  Canada

  710

  New Zealand

  496

  United States of America

  670

  Grand total

  116,988

  1Provisional only. All other figures are based on the Council's financial estimates for 1992–93.

  British Council
  Mr. John D. Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what were the total funds expended by the British Council in each of the past five years in(a) southern Greek Cyprus and (b) northern Turkish Cyprus.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  British Council expenditure since 1987–88 is as follows:

  Northern Cyprus

  Southern Cyprus

  £

  £

  1 1987–88

  63,279

  78,635

  1988–89

  193,184

  212,059

  1989–90

  179,912

  218,464

  1990–91

  272,653

  294,468

  1991–92

  236,675

  366,278

  1 Statistics for technical co-operation training programme not available before 1988–89.

  Visa Applications
  Mr. Gould
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what records are kept of personal interventions made by hon. Members in respect of visa applications for each year since 1987.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  No records are available before 1988. The hon. Member will be aware that the correspondence unit of the migration and visa department which was set up in May 1989 deals specifically with inquiries about entry clearance applications made at posts overseas. Details about the Unit were last circulated to hon. Members under cover of my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs' letter of 24 April 1992. From 1988 to date the Department and subsequently the unit has handled 20,850 inquiries from hon. Members as follows:
  39

  1988

  1989

  1990

  1991

  1992

  November

  282

  421

  354

  374

  —

  December

  234

  279

  288

  335

  —

  TOTALS

  3,875

  4,111

  4,561

  4,577

  3,726

  Whaling
  Ms. Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he has received concerning the effect on Norway's proposed membership of the EC of its policy of continuing commercial whaling; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Garel Jones
  Many members of the public have expressed their opposition to Norway's recent decision to resume commercial whaling. The Government regret this decision, which we hope will be reconsidered. Community legislation prohibits trade in whale products and requires member states to protect whales; new members will be expected to accept this legislation.

  El Salvador
  Mr. Galbraith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what is the latest information he has on the abuse of trade union members in El Salvador; and if he will make a statement.

  Next Steps—Executive agencies established

  Agency

  Launch date

  Staff1

  Accounts Services Agency

  1 October 1991

  90

  ADAS

  1 April 1992

  2,500

  Building Research Establishment

  2 April 1990

  700

  Cadw (Welsh Historic Monuments)

  2 April 1991

  230

  Central Office of Information2

  5 April 1990

  670

  Central Science Laboratory

  1 April 1992

  370

  Central Statistical Office

  19 November 1991

  1,090

  Central Veterinary Laboratory

  2 April 1990

  590

  Chemical and Biological Defence Establishment3

  2 April 1991

  600

  Civil Service College

  6 June 1989

  230

  Companies House2

  3 October 88

  1,070

  Compensation Agency4

  1 April 1992

  150

  Defence Analytical Services Agency3

  1 July 1992

  150

  Defence Operational Analysis Centre3

  1 July 1992

  180

  Defence Postal and Courier Services3

  1 July 1992

  600

  Defence Research Agency

  2 April 1991

  12,150

  Directorate General of Defence Accounts3

  1 April 1991

  2,130

  Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency

  2 April 1990

  4,580

  Driver and Vehicle Testing Agency4

  1 April 1992

  250

  Driving Standards Agency

  2 April 1990

  2,080

  Duke of York's Royal Military School

  1 April 1992

  100

  DVOIT

  1 April 1992

  590

  Employment Service

  2 April 1990

  38,400

  Fire Service College2

  1 April 1992

  160

  Forensic Science Service

  1 April 1991

  600

  Historic Royal Palaces

  1 October 1989

  330

  Historic Scotland

  2 April 1991

  630

  HMSO2

  14 December 1988

  3,250

  Hydrographic Office3

  6 April 1990

  860

  Insolvency Service

  21 March 1990

  1,470

  Intervention Board

  2 April 1990

  980

  Laboratory of the Government Chemist

  30 October 89

  340

  Land Registry

  2 July 1990

  9,800

  Medicines Control Agency

  11 July 1991

  300

  Meteorological Office

  2 April 1990

  2,390

  Military Survey3

  2 April 1991

  1,300

  National Engineering Laboratory

  5 October 1990

  390

  National Physical Laboratory

  3 July 1990

  830

  National Weights and Measures Laboratory

  18 April 1989

  50

  Natural Resources Institute

  2 April 1990

  440

  Naval Aircraft Repair Organisation3

  1 April 1992

  1,510

  40
  Mr. Garel Jones
  We are deeply concerned by recent reports of deaths of, and threats to, trade unionists and others in El Salvador. We continue to urge restraint on all concerned, to allow full implementation of the peace agreement signed in Mexico City on 16 January.

DUCHY OF LANCASTER

  Next Steps Agencies
  Mr. Steen
  To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster if he will list all the next steps agencies and indicate the date on which they began operating, the number of staff each employs and the personnel costs each agency is incurring or is estimated to incur on an annual basis.

  Mr. Robert Jackson
  The information requested in respect of launch dates and staff numbers is as follows. Personnel costs for each agency are not held centrally: further details may be obtained from individual agency annual reports or direct from the appropriate chief executive.
  41

  Agency

  Launch date

  Staff1

  NHS Estates

  1 April 1991

  120

  Occupational Health Service

  2 April 1991

  100

  Ordnance Survey

  1 May 1990

  2,380

  Ordnance Survey of Northern Ireland4

  1 April 1992

  210

  Patent Office2

  1 March 1990

  1,080

  Planning Inspectorate

  1 April 1992

  630

  Public Record Office

  1 April 1992

  440

  Queen Elizabeth II Conference Centre

  6 July 1989

  60

  Queen Victoria School

  1 April 92

  60

  Radiocommunications Agency

  2 April 1990

  520

  RAF Maintenance3

  2 April 1991

  13,300

  Rate Collection Agency4

  1 April 1992

  270

  Recruitment and Assessment Services Agency

  2 April 1991

  240

  Registers of Scotland

  6 April 1990

  1,280

  Royal Mint2

  2 April 1990

  1,020

  Scottish Agricultural Science Agency

  1 April 1992

  140

  Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency

  12 April 1991

  210

  Service Children's Schools (North West Europe)3

  24 April 1991

  2,300

  Social Security Agency4

  1 April 1992

  5,350

  Social Security Benefits Agency

  2 April 1991

  63,100

  Social Security Contributions Agency

  2 April 1991

  8,000

  Social Security Information Technology Services Agency

  2 April 1990

  4,000

  Social Security Resettlement Agency

  24 May 1989

  520

  Teachers' Pensions Agency

  1 April 1992

  300

  The Buying Agency2

  31 October 1991

  110

  Training and Employment Agency4

  2 April 1990

  1,670

  Transport Research Laboratory

  2 April 1992

  580

  United Kingdom Passport Agency

  2 April 1992

  1,250

  Valuation Office

  30 September 1991

  5,200

  Vehicle Certification Agency

  2 April 1990

  80

  Vehicle Inspectorate2

  1 August 1988

  1,820

  Veterinary Medicines Directorate

  2 April 1990

  80

  Warren Spring Laboratory

  20 April 1989

  310

  Wilton Park Conference Centre

  1 September 1991

  30

  75 in number

  211,890

  Customs and Excise5 (30 Executive Units)

  1 April 1991

  26,800

  Inland Revenue5 (34 Executive Offices)

  1 April 1992

  62,100

  Total6

  300,790

  TOTAL CIVIL SERVANTS7

  291,050

  1 October 1991 figures for civil servants and armed forces personnel. Casuals are excluded. Part-time staff are counted as half units.

  2 Trading Fund.

  3 Defence Support Agency.

  4 Northern Ireland civil service.

  5 Departments operating fully on 'Next Steps' lines. Staffing figure for Inland Revenue excludes the Valuation Office which is a free standing agency.

  6 Includes 8,440 armed forces personnel in Ministry of Defence Agencies, and 1,300 locally engaged staff in service children's schools, north west Europe.

  7 Includes 7,900 civil servants in agencies of the Northern Ireland civil service.

  Scientists and Technologists
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what efforts are being undertaken by his Department to attract more scientists and technologists into the senior ranks of the civil service.

  Mr. Robert Jackson
  Under the policy of fair and open competition for civil service posts the Civil Service Commissioners within my Department see that many appointments for scientists and technologists are widely publicised. These include appointments at senior level, including agency chief executives and heads of research establishments, posts in the scientific and engineering fast stream and, more widely, the full range of opportunities for scientists and technologists to work in the civil service. In addition, Departments, agencies and research establishments publicise their own vacancies.

  Pesticides
  Mr. Anthony Coombs
  To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what research his Department has undertaken concerning the relationship between the use of pesticides and the incidence of atopic illness.

  Mr. Waldegrave
  None. Neither the Agricultural and Food Research Council nor the Medical Research Council, which receives its grant-in-aid through my office, are supporting any research projects specifically on the relationship between the use of pesticides and the incidence of atopic illness.

  The research councils are always ready to consider, in competition with other applications, soundly based research proposals.

  Civil Research and Development
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster if he will make it his policy to raise the Government's share of the funding of civil research and development and to set a target date for achieving such a goal.

  Mr. Waldegrave
  No. It would be wrong for the Government to set a target for their share in the funding of total civil research and development—R and D—not least because this share would vary as a result of decisions on R and D funding by the private sector and other bodies. The Government fund the R and D they need on the basis or merit and value for money, consistent with what can be afforded.

  EC Biomedical and Health Programme
  Mr. Dalyell
  To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what monitoring he has undertaken of the biomedical and health programme of the EC.

  Mr. Waldegrave
  The Office of Science and Technology maintains contact with developments through officers of the Medical Research Council, who represent the United Kingdom on the programme advisory committee.

  Table of submissions to Rossendale advisory committee for consideration as Justices and numbers appointed to the Lancashire Commission

  1987

  1988

  1989

  1990

  1991

  1992

  Submissions

  Men

  2

  3

  4

  5

  7

  9

  Women

  4

  2

  2

  2

  13

  7

  Labour

  Men

  1

  1

  1

  2

  Women

  2

  1

  Conservative

  Men

  2

  1

  3

  2

  3

  2

  Women

  2

  1

  2

  2

  6

  5

  Liberal Democrat

  Men

  Women

  1

  Other not declared

  Men

  1

  3

  3

  5

  Women

  2

  1

  4

  1

  Appointments

  Men

  2

  1

  3

  2

  1

  4

  Women

  1

  1

  5

  1

  Labour

  Men

  Women

  1

  I

  Conservative

  Men

  2

  1

  3

  2

  1

  1

  Women

  1

  1

  3

  Liberal Democrat

  Men

  Women

  1

  Other not declared

  Men

  3

  Women

  Deletions by the advisory committee and number remaining for future consideration

  1987

  1988

  1989

  1990

  1991

  1992

  Deletions

  Men

  1

  1

  2

  6

  2

  Women

  1

  1

  2

  1

  6

  4

  Labour

  Men

  1

  1

  Women

  1

  Conservative

  Men

  2

  1

  Women

  2

  1

  2

  3

  Deregulation
  Mr. Sproat
  To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what financial provisions, and how much, he has made within his Department in order to look at the potential for deregulation of each of the regulatory measures for which he has responsibility.

  Mr. Waldegrave
  I do not have responsibility for any regulatory measures.

  Justices of the Peace
  Ms. Janet Anderson
  To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster if he will list for each year since 1987, the number of people submitted for consideration as justices of the peace in Rossendale broken down by(a) gender and (b) political affiliation; if he will indicate how many of these have not been approved, both as a total number and a percentage of all submissions; and if he will specify the criteria for the appointment of justices of the peace.

  Mr. Waldegrave
  The statistics requested are set out in the tables.
  45

  1987

  1988

  1989

  1990

  1991

  1992

  Liberal Democrat

  Men

  Women

  Other not declared

  Men

  1

  2

  3

  1

  Women

  1

  1

  3

  1

  Future Consideration

  Men

  1

  1

  3

  Women

  2

  1

  2

  2

  Labour

  Men

  I

  2

  Women

  1

  Conservative

  Men

  1

  2

  Women

  1

  Liberal Democrat

  Men

  Women

  1

  Other not declared

  Men

  1

  1

  Women

  1

  Number of names considered and deleted

  Total names considered

  Names deleted

  Percentage of names deleted

  1987

  6

  1

  16.66

  1988

  5

  2

  40.00

  1989

  6

  3

  50.00

  1990

  7

  3

  42.85

  1991

  20

  12

  60.00

  1992

  16

  6

  37.50

  As regards criteria for the appointment of magistrates, these are set out in a handbook for the guidance of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster's advisory committees on the appointment of justices of the peace in Lancashire, Greater Manchester and Merseyside. This broadly follows the pattern of the handbook from the Lord Chancellor's Department. The deliberations of my advisory committee in Rossendale are, of course, confidential.

  A candidate's political persuasion is neither a qualification nor disqualification for appointment as a magistrate. Political persuasion as well as other factors such as age and experience are taken into account in order to try and achieve a bench which broadly reflects the area it serves.

HOME DEPARTMENT

  Trevi Group
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) whether he will publish a list of the Trevi group of Ministers and officials;

  (2) if he will list the meetings of the Trevi group since 1990 and the Ministers and officials who attended in each case.

  Mr. Charles Wardle
  There is one Trevi ministerial meeting held during every EC Presidency, which is attended by the Minister from each EC member state with responsibility for interior and justice matters. In the United Kingdom this is the Home Secretary. Ministers are supported by officials normally from their respective Departments. In the United Kingdom these are from the Home Office.
  46
  Ministers who have attended Trevi ministerial meetings since 1991 are Mr. Kenneth Clarke—Lisbon, June 11–12 1992, Mr. John Patten—The Hague, 1–2 December 1991 and Mr. Kenneth Baker— Luxembourg, 13–14 June 1992.

  Individual Trevi working group meetings are attended by a delegation led by officials from each interior and justice ministry of the EC. United Kingdom delegations comprise Home Office officials and, generally, a police representative.

  I have written to the hon. Member with dates of Trevi working group and ministerial meetings since January 1991, which is when full records are available. These are repeated in the table.

  Records of the dates of meetings of the TREVI group are not held centrally before 1991. The following meetings have taken place since then:

  30 September 1992— I October 1992

  TREVI Working Group III

  18 September 1992

  Ad Hoc TREVI/Immigration Ministers

  3–4 September 1992

  TREVI Working Group I

  20–21 July 1992

  TREVI Working Group III

  9–10 July 1992

  TREVI 1992 Working Group

  2–3 July 1992

  TREVI Senior Officials TROIKA

  11–12 June 1992

  TREVI/Immigration Ministers

  14–15 May 1992

  TREVI Senior Officials

  9–10 April 1992

  TREVI 1992 Working Group

  19–20 March 1992

  TREVI Working Group III

  27–28 February 1992

  TREVI Working Group II

  30–31 January 1992

  TREVI 1992 Working Group

  23–24 January 1992

  TREVI Working Group I

  2–3 December 1991

  TREVI/Immigration Ministers

  21–22 November 1991

  TREVI Senior Officials

  7–8 November 1991

  TREVI 1992 Working Group

  24–25 October 1991

  TREVI Working Group I

  7–8 October 1991

  TREVI Working Group III

  26–27 September 1991

  TREVI 1992 Working Group

  19–20 September 1991

  TREVI Working Group II

  9–10 September 1991

  TREVI Working Group III

  4 July 1991

  TREVI 1992 Working Group

  3 July 1991

  TREVI Senior Officials

  13–14 June 1991

  TREVI/Immigration Ministers

  30–31 May 1991

  TREVI Senior Officials

  18–19 April 1991

  TREVI 1992 Working Group

  28 March 91

  Ad Hoc TREVI/Immigration Ministers

  14–15 March 1991

  TREVI Working Group III

  1 March 1991

  TREVI Working Group II

  14–15 February 1991

  TREVI Working Group I

  31 January–1 February 1991

  TREVI 1992 Working Group

  22 January 1991

  Ad Hoc TREVI/Immigration Ministers

  47
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) what decisions were taken by the Trevi group of Ministers in the past 36 months; and if he will deposit a copy of the decisions in the Library;

  (2) what was on the agenda for the meetings of the Trevi group of Ministers, during the past 36 months; and if he will place copies of the agenda in the Library.

  Mr. Charles Wardle
  Successive Secretaries of State for the Home Department have reported to the House on the decisions of Trevi and Immigration Ministers by means of a written answer after each ministerial meeting. I refer the hon. Member to the replies given on those occasions: 7 July 1992, column 132; 20 December 1991, column 351; 20 June 1991, column 242; 18 December 1990, column 110; 4 July 1990, column 582; 20 December 1989, column 276

  Asylum
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what discussions the United Kingdom Government have taken part in relating to EC-wide measures to introduce compulsory fingerprinting for all asylum seekers.

  Mr. Charles Wardle
  EC Immigration Ministers meeting in The Hague in December 1991 agreed that a feasibility study should be undertaken of a Communitywide system for matching the fingerprints of asylum applicants in order to detect multiple and successive applications being made in different member states. This work is continuing.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many asylum seekers were detained in Her Majesty's prisons during the past 24 months; and what was the most frequent period of custody to the nearest month.

  Mr. Charles Wardle
  The information is not available in the form requested. However, on 7 October 1992 a total of 138 asylum seekers had been detained in prisons, including Haslar, for more than seven days. Of these 32 had been detained for less than one month, 20 for between one and two months, 46 between two and six months and 40 for over six months.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what inquiries immigration officials will be required to make of immigration officials in another member state in order to assure the admissibility of an asylum seeker being returned to another member state under the 1990 Dublin convention, before such person is so returned.

  Mr. Charles Wardle
  Under the terms of articles 11 and 13 of the Dublin convention (Cm. 1623), where a member state considers that another member state is responsible for examining an application for asylum it may request that member state to take charge of or take back the applicant. That member state is obliged to respond to the request within specified timescales, and in so doing it will indicate whether or not the applicant is admissible to its territory.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what level of seniority an immigration officer must have to make a decision to return an asylum seeker 48
  to another member state of the European Community as permitted by the 1990 Dublin convention and whether such a decision will be reached and implemented without a reference to the asylum and special cases unit at the immigration and nationality department.

  Mr. Charles Wardle
  All decisions to refuse an application for asylum are taken by the asylum and special cases division and not by immigration officers. This will remain the position when such decisions are made under the terms of the Dublin convention (Cm. 1623).

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what safeguards will be taken to ensure that all relevant information, including the presence of family members, which affects the member state responsible for determining an asylum application under the 1990 Dublin convention, is obtained and considered before a decision is reached.

  Mr. Charles Wardle
  Article 15 of the Dublin convention (Cm. 1623) provides that each member state shall communicate to any member state which requests it such information on individual cases as is necessary for determining the member state responsible for examining an application for asylum. The member state that forwards the information must ensure that it is accurate and up to date. The applicant has the right to know what information is being exchanged concerning him or her and to have it corrected or erased if it is inaccurate. Where the removal of an asylum applicant is contemplated on third country grounds the applicant will also be invited as at present to explain why the United Kingdom should be considered the most appropriate country of refuge, and if there are any compassionate factors or family links which weigh against removal. All these matters will be considered before a final decision on removal is made.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what precautions are taken under the 1990 Dublin convention to ensure that all information about the identity of the asylum seeker and the nature of his application are kept confidential and are not revealed to unrelated third parties, including crew members of carriers.

  Mr. Charles Wardle
  Article 15 of the Dublin convention (Cm 1623) contains safeguards on the transmission and storage of information about asylum applicants. It sets limits on what information may be exchanged between member states on individual asylum applicants for the purposes of implementing the convention and requires that information shall be exchanged only between specially designated authorities in each member state. The article requires all exchanges of information to be recorded and limits the period during which information can be retained. It requires any computerisation of such information to be compatible with the 1981 Strasbourg convention on data protection. Crew members of carriers or other third parties are not informed of the basis of a person's application for admission or further leave to remain in the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what are the latest proposals of the group of EC Ministers concerned with immigration on the position
  49
  of a person who is being removed or deported through another member state who applies for political asylum in transit.

  Mr. Charles Wardle
  No specific proposals have been made, but in general these circumstances are covered by the convention determining the state responsible for examining applications for asylum lodged in one of the member states of the European Communities— the Dublin convention, Cm 1623. Article 3.1 of the convention makes it clear that every application for asylum will be considered by one of the member states. Which member state is responsible will depend upon the precise circumstances of the case.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what was the total cost in producing and processing the Asylum Bill in Session 1991–92.

  Mr. Charles Wardle
  The readily available information suggests that staff costs of £48,000 were incurred in the Home Office.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement on the numbers of staff who determine asylum claims; and how many of the proposed number are now in post.

  Mr. Charles Wardle
  On 1 October 1992 there were 495 staff in post in the asylum division. Of those, 350 staff, including clerical support, are involved in the determination of asylum claims. Present plans provide for the total number of staff in the asylum division to rise further, to about 550, next year.

  Immigration
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department on what evidence an immigration officer decides that a passenger has arrived from another member state of the European Community.

  Mr. Charles Wardle
  In some cases, most notably at the channel ports, the immediate point of departure will be self-evident. Otherwise, where there is any doubt, the immigration officer takes into account the passenger's own statement and such documentary evidence as is available, including endorsements in travel documents, travel tickets and carriers' records.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, pursuant to his answer of 15 July,Official Report, column 775, if he will make a statement on progress under the United Kingdom presidency on the work programme of EC Ministers concerned with immigration.

  Mr. Charles Wardle
  Progress is being made under the United Kingdom Presidency on a number of matters identified in the work programme adopted in December 1991 by EC Ministers concerned with immigration. We are carrying forward the work begun under the Portuguese Presidency on the harmonisation of family reunification policy; and have introduced proposals concerning the admission of non-EC nationals for purposes of employment. We are also working towards an agreement on the expulsion of illegal immigrants and on a resolution on manifestly unfounded asylum applications. There has been continuing progress on practical measures to prepare for the implementation of the Dublin asylum convention and the draft external frontiers convention.
  50
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, (1) further to his answer to the hon. Member for Norwood (Mr. Fraser) of 15 July,Official Report, column 77, what policy implications for United Kingdom immigration law stem from the progress made under the Portuguese presidency on family reunification; and what changes to primary or secondary legislation are required;

  (2) what administrative measures may need to be taken to implement the progress made on family reunification under the Portuguese presidency of the EC Ministers concerned with immigration.

  Mr. Charles Wardle
  Discussion of family reunification policy did not reach a sufficiently advanced stage during the Portuguese Presidency to enable conclusions to be drawn about the possible implications for United Kingdom law and practice.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department in respect of precisely which areas of family reunification discussions are currently taking place in the EC group of Ministers concerned with immigration.

  Mr. Charles Wardle
  The basic issues being addressed are which family members are to be admitted to join third-country nationals resident in a member state and under what conditions.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what arrangements have been agreed with the other EC Ministers concerned with immigration for the transit through member states of persons removed or deported.

  Mr. Charles Wardle
  No arrangements have yet been agreed with other EC Ministers. However, draft guidelines have been prepared, which it is intended should be considered by EC immigration Ministers at their meeting at the end of November. These recommend that, where possible, removal of third-country nationals through other EC member states should be avoided; that, where such a removal is necessary, for example in the interests of efficiency, speed or economy, the removing state should make satisfactory arrangements for the individual's onward journey; and that there should be proper consultation with the transit state on such matters as documentation and the use of escorts.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what proposals he has to change the green form legal aid option for immigraiton advice and representations; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Charles Wardle
  My noble Friend the Minister of State announced on 10 February in another place, column 459–60, that the Government did not intend to proceed with the proposal to transfer advice on immigration and asylum from the green form legal aid scheme to the United Kingdom Immigrants Advisory Service. Green form legal aid continues to be available in immigration and asylum cases.

  Mr. Fraser
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what matters were discussed by the ad hoc group of Home Affairs Ministers responsible for immigration matters in the European Community at its meeting on 10 and 11 September; and if he will make a statement as to decisions or agreements reached at that meeting, the areas in which discussions are on going, and the form in which conclusions will be presented to Parliament.
  51
  Mr. Charles Wardle
  The ad hoc working group on immigration is composed of senior officials. It reports to EC Immigration Ministers, who meet towards the end of each Presidency. At its meeting on 10–11 September, the group discussed a range of issues, including admission for the purpose of employment, implementing work in respect of the draft external frontiers convention and the practices to be followed by member states as regards the expulsion of third country nationals unlawfully present in their territories. Discussions will continue on these and other matters in preparation for consideration by Ministers.

  My right hon. and learned Friend will report to the House in the usual way the conclusions of the meeting of Immigration Ministers due to take place in London at the end of November.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will list all EC directives, draft directives and other EC proposals which currently pertain to immigration, nationality and asylum.

  Salary scales

  London

  Elsewhere

  Grade

  Number of Staff employed in grade on 30 September 1992

  Range minimum

  Range maximum

  Range minimum

  Range maximum

  Grade 3 (chief inspector)

  1

  51,272

  59,280

  49,920

  57,928

  Grade 5 (director)

  2

  37,589

  49,790

  36,019

  47,921

  Grade 6 (deputy director)

  3

  28,904

  44,390

  27,660

  42,724

  Grade 7 (assistant director)

  16

  25,330

  36,019

  24,239

  34,469

  Inspector

  72

  19,815

  23,082

  19,616

  22,618

  Senior executive officer

  6

  18,082

  22,618

  17,361

  21,715

  Chief immigration officer

  316.5

  16,333

  18,833

  16,004

  18,454

  Higher executive officer

  18

  14,456

  18,454

  13,880

  17,718

  Immigration officer

  1,832

  12,411

  15,682

  12,161

  15,366

  Executive officer

  55

  10,440

  14,753

  10,024

  14,165

  Assistant immigration officer

  49

  9,405

  11,138

  8,790

  10,409

  Administration officer

  133

  9,405

  11,138

  8,790

  10,409

  Administration assistant

  108.5

  7,175

  9,405

  6,706

  8,790

  Senior personal secretary

  1

  12,752

  14,599

  11,917

  13,644

  Personal secretary

  12

  9,405

  11,521

  8,790

  10,768

  Typist

  35

  7,175

  9,405

  6,706

  8,790

  Note: Progression on the salary depends on performance

  Mr. Fraser
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department in relation to the ad hoc group of Home Affairs Ministers in the European Community responsible for immigration matters, what treaties, agreements, resolutions or protocols are currently being considered by the group; when the group will next meet; and if he will publish the names of sub-groups, the person chairing them and the frequency of meetings.

  Mr. Charles Wardle
  The ad hoc working group on immigration is composed of senior officials. It meets approximately eight times a year and reports to Ministers concerned with immigration matters. The group will meet next on 12–13 November. Work currently in hand in the group under the immigration and asylum work programme agreed at Maastricht in December 1991 includes the preparation of resolutions for adoption by Ministers on manifestly unfounded asylum applications, harmonisation of family reunification policy, and expulsion practice. Other areas under discussion include admission for employment and transit for the purposes of
  52
  Mr. Charles Wardle
  The area covered by Community law is that of free movement and residence rights for EC nationals and their families. The operation of these rights is currently governed by Council directives 64/221/EEC; 68/360/EEC; 72/194/EEC; 73/148/EEC; 75/34/EEC; 75/35/EEC; 90/364/EEC; 90/365/EEC and 90/366/EEC; and by regulations EEC No. 1612/68, EEC No. 1251/70 and EEC No. 2194/91. A Commission document, COM(90)108, contains proposals to amend regulation EEC No. 1612/68 and directive 68/360/EEC. These proposals are currently under discussion.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will set out in tabular form the annual salary scales for those employed in the immigration service up to and including the permanent secretaries and Ministers, giving the numbers employed at each grade.

  Mr. Kenneth Clarke
  The information is set out in the tables:

  removal. The current chairman is Mr. A. R. Rawsthorne, an Assistant Under-Secretary of State in the Immigration and Nationality Department of the Home Office.

  There are currently five sub-groups reporting to the ad hoc group, each chaired during the United Kingdom Presidency by a senior official of the Immigration and Nationality Department, as follows:

  Sub group

  Chairman

  Admission/Expulsion

  Mr. N. R. Varney/Mr. C. B. Manchip

  Asylum

  Mr. N. C. Sanderson

  External Frontiers

  Mr. N. R. Varney

  False documents

  Mr. C. B. Manchip

  Visa

  Mr. R. G. Yates

  The frequency of meetings varies, but a total of 22 days had been allocated in total to meetings of the sub-groups during the United Kingdom Presidency.

  Carriers Liability
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how much the United Kingdom Government have fined airlines under the provisions of the Immigration (Carriers Liability) Act 1987 in the past 24 months.

  Mr. Charles Wardle
  The total of sums demanded of airlines under the Immigration (Carriers' Liability) Act 1987 for the two years up to 31 August 1992 was about £24 million.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will list the provisions of the carriers liability schemes which exist in the OECD countries.

  Mr. Charles Wardle
  The following is a list of the OECD countries which we understand have carriers' liability schemes, with the charges which may be imposed on carriers in each case.

  Australia

  $1,000 Aus (approximately £430)

  Belgium

  100,000 BgF (£2,070)

  Canada

  $100–$5,000 Can. (£50£2,500)

  France

  10,000 FF (£1,260)

  Germany

  2,000–5,000 DM (£850£2,135)

  Italy

  170,000–500.000 Lira (£80£240)

  Turkey

  $3,000 US (£1,785)

  United Kingdom

  £2,000

  United States of America

  $300–$3,000 (£175£1,785)

  Schengen Group
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what liaison takes place between the United Kingdom and the Schengen group; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Charles Wardle
  There are no formal liaison arrangements between the United Kingdom and the Schengen states, although the Schengen presidency has on occasion briefed British officials on developments in implementing the Schengen convention. There are, however, frequent contacts between United Kingdom Ministers and officials and their counterparts in the Schengen states, both bilaterally and in the course of discussions among the Twelve.

  Commissioner Bangermann
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement on his recent meeting with EC Commissioner Bangermann.

  Mr. Kenneth Clarke
  At my meeting with Vice-President Bangemann on 1 September, it was agreed that 54
  we should avoid disputes over the interpretation of article 8A of the treaty of Rome and should concentrate instead on practical measures to make it as easy as possible for EC nationals including British citizens to enter and leave the United Kingdom. Discussions with the Commission are continuing.

  Child Abuse
  Dr. Godman
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what proposals he has to change the legislation regarding the cross-examination of child witnesss in cases of alleged child abuse, neglect and sexual abuse; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Jack
  None, at present. The Criminal Justice Act 1991 introduced new provisions relating to the taking of evidence from children. These provisions derive from the recommendations of Judge Pigot's advisory group and are designed to reduce the stress of criminal proceedings for child witnesses.

  In particular, video recorded interviews with child witnesses will now be admissible in place of a child's evidence in chief and the availability of live television links for abused children giving evidence and being crossexamined—introduced by the Criminal Justice Act 1988 —will be extended. Under no circumstances will the accused be allowed to question a child in person.

  We will be monitoring the effectiveness of these reforms and in the light of experience with them will, of course, consider whether any further changes are needed.

  United Kingdom Immigrants Advisory Service
  Mr. Winnick
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the latest position over the United Kingdom Immigrants Advisory Service and its replacement; if the UKIAS staff and offices have been retained; if he will name the members of the replacement committee and where appropriate the organisations they represent; what arrangements have been made for the election of an executive of the new body; what funding it will receive from the Government; and what response has been made by the UKIAS staff to the replacement committee.

  Mr. Charles Wardle
  I announced in reply to a question from my hon. Friend the Member for Westminster, North (Sir J. Wheeler) on 8 July, column 202–3, that Mr. Humfrey Malins had been invited to lead a planning group outside Government to draw up proposals for a new voluntary body to take over UK IAS's general immigration work and in due course to establish such a body. The members of the group are Baroness Flather, Mr. Alf Dubs, Dr. Z. U. Khan and Ms. Rachel Pickavance. All have been invited to participate as individuals, not as representatives of particular organisations. The planning group hopes by the end of the year to put forward recommendations on the constitution and structure of the new organisation. The group would welcome views from any interested party.

  On 24 July UKIAS appointed a standing executive committee, separate from the previous executive committee, to administer the organisation while the planning group does its work. This is chaired by the Reverend David Haslam of the Council of Churches for Britain and Ireland and the members are Mr. Navnit Dholakia of the Commission for Racial Equality, Mrs. Helen Ellis of the Kent Committee for the Welfare of Migrants. Mr. Bob

  55
  Purkiss of the Trade Union Congress and Mrs. Sabiha Shahzad of the National Association of Race Equality Councils. In addition, Mr. Victor Kasinathan is the treasurer and Mr. Andrew Puddephat of Liberty is a co-opted member. The Government are providing funds on a monthly basis so that UKIAS's staff, working from the existing offices, can continue to provide advice and representation for appellants until the successor body is established.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what proposals he has to continue the services currently offered by UKIAS.

  Mr. Charles Wardle
  I refer the hon. Member to the reply given to a question from my hon. Friend the Member for Westminster, North (Sir J. Wheeler) on 8 July,Official Report, column 202–3.

  Faroes Citizens
  Mr. Bill Michie
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what rules govern the settlement of citizens of the Faroes in the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Charles Wardle
  Faroe Islanders are not EC nationals and do not, therefore, enjoy the free movement rights set out in the treaty of Rome. Any applications for settlement in the United Kingdom fall to be decided in accordance with the immigration rules.

  Metropolitan Police
  Sir John Wheeler
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will set out in tabular form the annual salary scales for the ranks of commander to commissioner for the Metropolitan police and show for each rank all other allowances payable.

  Mr. Charles Wardle
  The information requested is set out in the tables.

  Table 1 (Salaries)

  Rank

  Salary on promotion

  Salary after one year

  Salary after three Years

  Salary after five years

  £

  £

  £

  £

  Commander

  46,542

  46,542

  47,709

  47,709

  Deputy Assistant Commissioner

  53,031

  53,031

  54,354

  55,683

  Assistant Commissioner

  66,288

  66,288

  67,944

  69,603

  Annual salary with effect from 1 September 1992

  On appointment/promotion

  After 1 year

  After 21 years

  After 3 years

  After 4 years

  After 5 years

  After 6 years

  After 7 years

  After 8 years

  After 12 years

  After 15 years

  £

  £

  £

  £

  £

  £

  £

  £

  £

  £

  £

  Constable

  12,555

  13,425

  15,807

  16,179

  16,713

  17,289

  17,838

  18,390

  18,933

  20,043

  20,952

  Sergeant

  20,043

  20,952

  21,690

  22,407

  22,992

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Inspector

  22,992

  23,709

  24,636

  25,368

  26,103

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  24,228

  24,903

  25,785

  26,577

  27,357

  Chief Inspector

  26,103

  26,835

  27,564

  28,299

  29,037

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  27,357

  28,026

  28,749

  29,514

  30,279

  Superintendent

  35,508

  36,414

  37,314

  38,556

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  36,414

  37,128

  37,839

  38,556

  56

  Rank

  Salary on promotion

  Salary after one year

  Salary after three years

  Salary after five years

  £

  £

  £

  £

  Deputy Commissioner

  75,138

  75,138

  77,016

  78,894

  Commissioner

  87,620

  87,620

  87,620

  87,620

  Table 2 (Allowances)

  Officers (excluding the Commissioner) may qualify for the following allowances:

  Allowance

  Rate

  Housing Allowance

  £6,529.30 pa Commanders and Deputy Assistant Commissioners

  £7,544.96 pa Assistant Commissioners and Deputy Commissioner

  Rent Allowance

  £7,890.00 pa Commanders and Deputy Assistant Commissioners

  £9,153.00 pa Assistant Commissioners and Deputy Commissioner

  London Allowance

  £1,011.00 pa

  London Weighting

  £1,344.00 pa

  Supplementary rent Allowance

  £726.12 pa

  Uniform Allowance

  £287.00 pa

  Permanent Plain Clothes Allowance

  £284.72 to Commanders and Deputy Assistant Commissioners

  Sir John Wheeler
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will call for a report from the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis as to how many radio control rooms there are in divisional and other units of the Metropolitan police; and what is the total number of police officers and civilians employed in them.

  Mr. Charles Wardle
  In addition to the central command complex at New Scotland Yard, there are 69 divisional control rooms and 11 others in specialist units, with a total staff of 726 police officers and 477 civilians.

  Police Salaries
  Sir John Wheeler
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will set out in tabular form the annual salary scales for the ranks of police constable to chief superintendent with effect from 1 September; and in the case of London, if he will show for each rank and scale point the London allowance, special London allowance and maximum rent allowance payable, respectively.

  Mr. Charles Wardle
  The information requested is set out in the table.
  57

  On appointment/promotion

  After 1 year

  After 21 years

  After 3 years

  After 4 years

  After 5 years

  After 6 years

  After 7 years

  After 8 years

  After 12 years

  After 15 years

  £

  £

  £

  £

  £

  £

  £

  £

  £

  £

  £

  Chief Superintendent

  39,480

  40,044

  40,941

  41,919

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  1 Entry point for those aged 22 or over, who will move to the next point after three years' service.

  Note: London salaries in italics.

  London Allowance £ 1,011 (for All Ranks)

  London Weighting £ 1,344 (for All Ranks)

  Maximum limits of transitional rent allowance

  Federated Ranks

  Superintendents and Chief Superintendents

  £

  £

  Metropolitan

  5,863.65

  6,802.00

  City of London

  5,864.00

  6,802.00

  Standard rate housing allowance

  Federated Ranks

  Superintendents and Chief Superintendents

  £

  £

  Metropolitan

  4,836.51

  5,610.83

  City of London

  4,807.00

  5,577.00

  New Refugee Unit
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what proposals he has for establishing a network of advice offices for applicants and appellants regarding political asylum status outside London for the new refugee unit.

  Mr. Charles Wardle
  It is for the refugee legal centre, as the new refugee unit is now called, to decide where it locates its advice offices. I understand that it has no plans to establish advice offices outside London at present, since the great majority of the centre's clients live in the London area.

  Police (BMW Motor Cycles)
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will list the police forces that have fleets of BMW 1000cc K100-RT motor cycles; what is the strength of that fleet; how many have been taken out of service during the last 12 months as a precautionary safety measure; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Charles Wardle
  The information requested is not held centrally and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Earlier this year, the Association of Chief Police Officers issued advice to forces on measures which could be taken to improve the stability of these and other motorcycles.

  Carl Bridgewater
  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how long he has had the report from Merseyside police into the Carl Bridgewater murder; and when he expects to reach a decision regarding the cases of the three men who received life sentences for this offence.

  Mr. Jack
  The report was received at the end of July and its findings are now being very carefully considered. Once this exercise is completed my right hon. and learned Friend will decide as soon as possible whether there are grounds for any action on his part.

  Prevention of Terrorism
  Mr. Dalyell
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will introduce proposals to amend the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1989 to take account of the role of the press with a view to freedom of expression and the provision of legitimate information to the public.

  Mr. Kenneth Clarke
  No.

  Nuisance
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will list the police forces that are currently using the Justices of the Peace Act 1361 instead of the Public Order Act 1986 to combat anyone causing a nuisance; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Charles Wardle
  The only extant power from the Justices of the Peace Act 1361 is for magistrates to make binding over orders. Information on the number of orders made under the 1361 Act and on the circumstances leading to the making of those orders is not available centrally and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Probation Officers
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) what proposals he has to alter the funding arrangements and selection procedures for probation officers; and what consultations he has had with the National Association of Probation Officers, Central Council for the Training of Social Workers and the Committee of Vice-Chancellors and Principals regarding such changes and their timing;

  (2) what representations he has received concerning the training of probation officers.

  Mr. Jack
  The funding arrangements for students starting courses which would qualify them for entry to the probation service were revised in the summer. This followed a decision by the special commissioners of taxes that Home Office payments to probation students were not
  59
  taxable, with the consequence that national insurance deductions, too, would not be appropriate. Following this decision we reviewed the grant arrangements and concluded that probation students should now receive their grants in the same way as the majority of social work students, but at a higher rate in view of the additional training involved. The selection procedures have not been altered. Discussions about the new arrangements have taken place with the Central Council for Education and Training in Social Work and the National Association of Probation Officers. We have received a number of representations from the association and from individual students.

  Lord-Lieutenants
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will list(a) the names and (b) the occupation of each Lord-Lieutenant and Deputy Lord-Lieutenant currently in post in England and Wales; who is responsible for their nomination; and what (i) salary and (ii) honoraria, allowance or expenses each receives.

  Mr. Charles Wardle
  My right hon. and learned Friend's responsibilities are limited to the reimbursement of certain expenses to Lord-Lieutenants, and the appointment of Deputy Lieutenants, in England. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales, upon whose behalf I am also replying, has similar responsibility in Wales.

  Lord-Lieutenants are appointed by the Queen under section 130 of the Reserve Forces Act 1980, on the advice of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister.

  Deputy Lieutenants are appointed by the Lord-Lieutenant under section 133 of the Act, subject to Her Majesty's non-disapprobation, which is signified as appropriate by the Secretary of State for the Home Department or the Secretary of State for Wales. There are some 2,250 Deputy Lieutenants in England and Wales and a list of their names and occupations could be provided only at disproportionate cost.

  Lord-Lieutenants and Deputy Lieutenants are unsalaried. Lord-Lieutenants, but not Deputy Lieutenants, may claim from central funds reimbursement of the cost of travel, postage, telephone calls and other non-entertainment expenses incurred in the course of their official duties.

  Reginald Dudley and Robert Maynard
  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what actions he is taking regarding a referral back to the Court of Appeal of the convictions of Reginald Dudley and Robert Maynard following the fresh evidence submitted by their solicitor at the beginning of July.

  Mr. Jack
  I am considering the representations and material submitted to me in this case and will come to a decision as soon as I can.

  Accidents (Police Vehicles)
  Sir John Wheeler
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will set out for each police force in England and Wales for each of the last 10 years, the number of persons killed or injured by police officers when driving motor vehicles; and if he will make a statement.
  60
  Mr. Charles Wardle
  The information which is available centrally relates to accidents where death or serious injury has arisen in the course of either police pursuits or responses to emergency calls. The information is available only from 1987 and the figures do not show the cause of the accident or the injury.

  Information in respect of the Metropolitan police is as follows:

  Year

  Fatal injury (Civilian)

  Fatal injury (Police)

  Serious injury (Civilian and Police)

  1987

  8

  0

  69

  1988

  8

  0

  103

  1989

  11

  1

  139

  1990

  6

  1

  124

  1991

  3

  0

  82

  For the other police forces in England and Wales information for 1987 is not available by force, but it is as follows:

  Fatal injury (Civilian)

  Fatal injury (Police)

  Serious injury (Civilian)

  Serious injury (Police)

  16

  8

  152

  141

  For those other forces, the information for 1988 to 1991 is set out in the table:

  Police vehicle accidents —fatal injury (police)

  Force name

  1988

  1989

  1990

  1991

  Avon and Somerset

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Bedfordshire

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Cambridgeshire

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Cheshire

  0

  0

  0

  0

  City of London

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Cleveland

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Cumbria

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Derbyshire

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Devon and Cornwall

  0

  0

  0

  1

  Dorset

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Durham

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Dyfed Powys

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Essex

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Gloucestershire

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Greater Manchester

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Gwent

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Hampshire

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Hertfordshire

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Humberside

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Kent

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Lancashire

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Leicestershire

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Lincolnshire

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Merseyside

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Norfolk

  0

  0

  0

  0

  North Wales

  0

  0

  0

  0

  North Yorkshire

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Northamptonshire

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Northumbria

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Nottinghamshire

  0

  0

  0

  0

  South Wales

  0

  0

  0

  0

  South Yorkshire

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Staffordshire

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Suffolk

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Surrey

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Sussex

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Thames Valley

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Warwickshire

  0

  0

  0

  0

  West Mercia

  0

  0

  0

  0

  West Midlands

  0

  1

  0

  0

  West Yorkshire

  0

  0

  0

  1

  Wiltshire

  0

  0

  0

  0

  61

  Force name

  1988

  1989

  1990

  1991

  National summary

  0

  1

  0

  2

  Police vehicle accidents—serious injury (police)

  Force name

  1988

  1989

  1990

  1991

  Avon and Somerset

  1

  2

  2

  3

  Bedfordshire

  0

  6

  2

  4

  Cambridgeshire

  2

  0

  2

  0

  Cheshire

  2

  0

  2

  1

  City of London

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Cleveland

  0

  1

  0

  0

  Cumbria

  5

  0

  2

  0

  Derbyshire

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Devon and Cornwall

  2

  0

  0

  0

  Dorset

  0

  1

  1

  1

  Durham

  1

  1

  0

  2

  Dyfed Powys

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Essex

  3

  2

  14

  0

  Gloucestershire

  0

  2

  2

  0

  Greater Manchester

  5

  6

  5

  1

  Gwent

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Hampshire

  2

  2

  0

  2

  Hertfordshire

  2

  1

  1

  3

  Humberside

  2

  2

  1

  0

  Kent

  3

  2

  2

  4

  Lancashire

  2

  0

  0

  0

  Leicestershire

  0

  0

  0

  1

  Lincolnshire

  2

  2

  1

  2

  Merseyside

  10

  12

  2

  3

  Norfolk

  0

  3

  0

  0

  North Wales

  1

  5

  0

  0

  North Yorkshire

  6

  1

  5

  3

  Northamptonshire

  0

  0

  2

  0

  Northumbria

  5

  2

  0

  3

  Nottinghamshire

  2

  4

  0

  2

  South Wales

  0

  0

  0

  5

  South Yorkshire

  4

  6

  5

  4

  Staffordshire

  3

  2

  0

  0

  Suffolk

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Surrey

  2

  1

  2

  2

  Sussex

  0

  0

  2

  2

  Thames Valley

  0

  0

  6

  1

  Warwickshire

  0

  0

  0

  1

  West Mercia

  0

  3

  3

  0

  West Midlands

  3

  20

  19

  N/A

  West Yorkshire

  0

  0

  1

  1

  Wiltshire

  2

  0

  0

  0

  National summary

  72

  89

  84

  51

  Police vehicle accidents—fatal injury (civilian)

  Force name

  1988

  1989

  1990

  1991

  Avon and Somerset

  2

  1

  1

  1

  Bedfordshire

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Cambridgeshire

  0

  1

  I

  4

  Cheshire

  0

  0

  1

  0

  City of London

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Cleveland

  0

  2

  0

  0

  Cumbria

  0

  0

  1

  0

  Derbyshire

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Devon and Cornwall

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Dorset

  0

  2

  1

  0

  Durham

  0

  0

  0

  1

  Dyfed Powys

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Essex

  2

  0

  0

  0

  Gloucestershire

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Greater Manchester

  3

  10

  2

  3

  Gwent

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Hampshire

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Hertfordshire

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Humberside

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Kent

  2

  0

  1

  1

  Lancashire

  0

  1

  0

  4

  Leicestershire

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Lincolnshire

  0

  1

  0

  0

  62

  Force name

  1988

  1989

  1990

  1991

  Merseyside

  1

  1

  1

  4

  Norfolk

  0

  0

  0

  0

  North Wales

  1

  0

  1

  0

  North Yorkshire

  0

  2

  2

  0

  Northamptonshire

  0

  0

  0

  1

  Northumbria

  0

  0

  1

  3

  Nottinghamshire

  1

  0

  0

  0

  South Wales

  1

  0

  1

  0

  South Yorkshire

  0

  0

  2

  1

  Staffordshire

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Suffolk

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Surrey

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Sussex

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Thames Valley

  0

  0

  1

  1

  Warwickshire

  0

  0

  0

  1

  West Mercia

  0

  0

  0

  1

  West Midlands

  1

  3

  0

  1

  West Yorkshire

  0

  1

  0

  0

  Wiltshire

  0

  0

  0

  0

  National summary

  14

  25

  17

  27

  Police vehicle accidents—serious injury (civilian)

  Force name

  1988

  1989

  1990

  1991

  Avon and Somerset

  5

  2

  6

  5

  Bedfordshire

  1

  7

  0

  2

  Cambridgeshire

  1

  1

  1

  0

  Cheshire

  0

  0

  6

  5

  City of London

  1

  2

  0

  0

  Cleveland

  1

  0

  2

  3

  Cumbria

  3

  3

  9

  2

  Derbyshire

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Devon and Cornwall

  1

  5

  5

  0

  Dorset

  2

  1

  1

  4

  Durham

  0

  3

  1

  2

  Dyfed Powys

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Essex

  3

  4

  5

  1

  Gloucestershire

  1

  1

  0

  1

  Greater Manchester

  20

  8

  14

  15

  Gwent

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Hampshire

  1

  1

  3

  7

  Hertfordshire

  0

  0

  1

  5

  Humberside

  0

  0

  1

  1

  Kent

  3

  3

  3

  2

  Lancashire

  3

  2

  0

  7

  Leicestershire

  0

  1

  0

  0

  Lincolnshire

  0

  0

  0

  2

  Merseyside

  31

  24

  19

  26

  Norfolk

  0

  0

  0

  0

  North Wales

  3

  4

  2

  1

  North Yorkshire

  9

  8

  5

  4

  Northamptonshire

  5

  1

  3

  2

  Northumbria

  0

  2

  3

  4

  Nottinghamshire

  1

  2

  0

  3

  South Wales

  0

  0

  0

  0

  South Yorkshire

  4

  6

  6

  9

  Staffordshire

  3

  2

  3

  0

  Suffolk

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Surrey

  0

  3

  0

  2

  Sussex

  0

  0

  2

  5

  Thames Valley

  0

  2

  7

  6

  Warwickshire

  0

  0

  0

  1

  West Mercia

  0

  1

  1

  3

  West Midlands

  4

  14

  0

  n/a

  West Yorkshire

  1

  0

  0

  0

  Wiltshire

  0

  0

  0

  0

  National summary

  107

  113

  109

  130

  Drugs
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will introduce legislation to make it illegal for anyone to be in possession of the drugs(a) Clenbuterol, (b) Norditropion and (c) Gonadotrophin; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Jack
  I have no present plans to do so, but I am willing to support any private Member who brings forward a Bill to make it an offence for an unauthorised person to supply anabolic steroids and related substances to minors. Precise substances to be included would need to be considered.

  Attack Deterrents
  Ms. Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will reconsider proposals to amend the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979 to allow the importation of deterrent products using pepper against attacks.

  Mr. Charles Wardle
  The Customs and Excise Management Act 1979 provides the powers for Customs to enforce the prohibition of any goods on their importation.

  Devices capable of discharging a noxious substance are classed as prohibited weapons under section 5 of the Firearms Act 1968. Such weapons may be imported only under the authority of an import licence issued by the Department of Trade and Industry to importers who are authorised by the Secretary of State for the Home Department to possess them. If such weapons are imported without a licence, Customs seize them under section 49(1)(b) of the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979. We consider that spray devices, which are designed to discharge pepper into a person's eyes and face in order temporarily to incapacitate them, are prohibited weapons under section 5 of the Firearms Act 1968. They could be used effectively in crime and it would not be in the public interest to permit their importation or possession.

  Mr. David Brown
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement on the detention by immigration officers of Mr. David Brown, of Shepherd's Bush, London, a British citizen leaving for a holiday in New York.

  Mr. Charles Wardle
  I have written to the hon. Member.

  Drug Couriers
  Sir John Wheeler
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many persons are currently serving sentences of imprisonment as drug couriers(a) in total and (b) who are foreign nationals either without the right of abode in the United Kingdom, or who would be subject to deportation.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  The information readily available does not distinguish the different types of drugs offence. On 30 June 1992, the latest date for which information is available, about 3,440 prisoners were held under sentence in prison service establishments in England and Wales for 64
  drugs offences, excluding any where drugs offences were not the principal offence. Of these about 1,020 were recorded as foreign nationals and the nationality of a further 140 was not recorded. Information on their liability for deportation on completion of sentence is not recorded centrally.

  Immigration and Nationality Department
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he expects to bring forward proposals to convert the immigration and nationality department into an agency.

  Mr. Kenneth Clarke
  I have no proposals to change the administration of the Immigration and Nationality Department at the moment.

  Safer Cities Programme
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what was the expenditure of his Department(a) on the safe cities programme in the past financial year and (b) on each of the cities included in that programme.

  Mr. Jack
  The total expenditure under the safer cities programme in the financial year 1991–92 was £7.2 million of which £2.0 million was for the running costs of the 20 projects including staff salaries, accommodation and other administrative expenditure. A total of £5.2 million was paid in grants to support local crime prevention activity, as follows:

  £000's

  Birmingham

  293

  Bradford

  305

  Bristol

  406

  Coventry

  383

  Derby1

  2

  Hammersmith and Fulham1

  0

  Hartlepool

  309

  Hull

  291

  Islington

  366

  Leicester1

  10

  Lewisham

  413

  Middlesbrough1

  0

  Nottingham

  307

  Rochdale

  315

  Salford

  315

  Sunderland

  264

  Tower Hamlets

  367

  Wandsworth

  274

  Wirral

  320

  Wolverhampton

  299

  1 New project established in 1991–92. There is a lead-in time of several months before new projects have an action plan and systems in place to commence grant making.

  Treaties
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will publish a list of all treaties, European Community documents and accounts that the United Kingdom has agreed to in the past three years.

  Mr. Garel-Jones
  I have been asked to reply.

  Such a list cannot be provided in Hansard without disproportionate cost. However, major treaties and agreements signed by the European Community and its

  65
  member states are listed and explained in the six monthly White Papers on "Developments in the European Community", which are deposited in the Library of the House. The most recent was published on 12 October. The Official Journal of the European Communities, which is also placed in the Library of the House, publishes in the "L" series monthly and annual indices listing legislative measures adopted by the Council of Ministers of the European Communities.

  Prisoners
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many prisoners were held in police cells in each of the police forces in England and Wales on the most recent date for which figures are available.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  On Friday 16 October 1992, the latest date for which figures are available, the total number of prisoners held in police cells in each force area was as follows:

  Force area

  Prisoners

  Avon and Somerset

  31

  Cheshire

  33

  Cumbria

  2

  Derbyshire

  10

  Gloucestershire

  10

  Greater Manchester

  238

  Humberside

  21

  I^ancashire

  50

  Merseyside

  87

  North Wales

  7

  North Yorkshire

  11

  South Wales

  24

  South Yorkshire

  9

  Staffordshire

  10

  Surrey

  3

  Sussex

  5

  West Mercia

  38

  West Midlands

  7

  West Yorkshire

  10

  Wiltshire

  10

  Total

  616

  Nuclear Accidents
  Mr. Illsley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) which local authorities and emergency services have been involved in exercises to practise the Government's contingency plan to deal with the effects in the United Kingdom of an overseas nuclear accident;

  (2) what improvements have been made to the original Government contingency plan to deal with the United Kingdom effects of an overseas nuclear accident based on exercises to practise the plan;

  (3) how frequently and on what occasions exercises have been carried out to practise the Government's contingency plan to deal with the effects on the United Kingdom of a nuclear accident occurring overseas.

  Mr. Maclean
  I have been asked to reply.

  My Department has lead responsibilities for responding to overseas nuclear accidents, under the United Kingdom's national response plan arrangements.

  There have been two exercises: the first, held in October 1988, did not involve local authorities. The second exercise was held in November 1991, and three local authorities were involved: Avon county council, Lancashire county
  66
  council and West Midlands metropolitan borough council. Emergency services were not involved in either exercise.

  Lessons learned from these exercises, and from our response to the St. Petersburg incident last March, have resulted in several improvements to internal procedures, but the national response plan itself remains unchanged from the statement made in the House on 30 June 1987, Hansard, columns 65–67, by the then Prime Minister, and subsequently set out in a booklet published by HMSO, entitled "The National Response Plan and Radioactive Incident Monitoring Network (RIMNET), A Statement of Proposals", copies of which are held in the Library.

HEALTH

  Psychiatric Care
  Mr. Elletson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health which local social services authorities do not have social workers approved under the Mental Health Act 1983 available on a 24-hour basis to deal with psychiatric emergencies which require consideration of compulsory admission to hospital.

  Mr. Yeo
  This information is not held centrally.

  Social Workers
  Mr. Elletson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will make a statement on the post-qualifying system of credit accumulation for social workers and probation officers now being piloted by the Central Council for Education and Training in Social Work.

  Mr. Yeo
  One of the aims of the Government's training strategy launched in January 1991 was to provide a coherent framework for post qualifying education and training addressing the need to improve service provision.

  The Central Council for the Education and Training in Social Work (CCETSW) post qualifying framework includes the following components:
  credit accumulation and transfer (CAT) system linked to academic awards;
  post qualifying and professional development leading to two CCETSW awards.

  The requirements made by CCETSW to implement the CAT system were developed in consultation with Council for National Academic Awards and other awarding bodies, and can link to other CAT systems including that of the Open university. When fully established, in-house training, programmes of study at educational institutions, and accreditation of prior learning will all contribute "credits" towards the post-qualifying award and the advanced award.

  Mental Health Services
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) if she will make it her policy to provide an impartial assessment of the adequacy of the relevant authorities' provision of social care to meet the needs of severely mentally ill people;

  (2) if she will make a statement on the finding by the social services inspectorate that in some local authorities evidence of any sense of direction in terms of mental health services is lacking.

  Mr. Yeo
  The care programme approach, implemented as from 1 April 1991, should ensure that mentally ill people
  67
  living in the community receive appropriate social care. We have asked regional health authorities to monitor its implementation consulting the regional offices of the Department's social services inspectorate as necessary.

  Under the National Health Service and Community Care Act 1990, local authorities are required to draw up and publish their community care plans for all client groups, including mentally ill people, after consultation with a range of statutory and independent sector bodies, and users and carers.

  The White Paper "Caring for People" stresses the importance of health and local authority co-operation in planning services, and in the White Paper "The Health of the Nation", this is extended to joint purchasing of mental health services. The Ministerial Committee on Health Strategy will oversee development in respect of "Health of the Nation" and periodic reports on progress will be published.

  We are not aware of a finding by the social services inspectorate that in some local authorities evidence of any sense of direction in terms of mental health services is lacking.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what is the average cost per week of psychiatric treatment in(a) an acute, (b) a long-stay ward in a specialist psychiatric hospital, (c) similar provision in a local hospital or unit and (d) long-term treatment and care in a high dependency hospital hostel.

  Mr. Yeo
  The average cost per day in 1990–91 for patients in the mental illness specialty was £55. The average costs for groups within the specialty cannot be identified separately.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health whether the "Health of the Nation" White Paper represents a change in Government policy that the transfer of services away from large psychiatric hospitals to a balanced range of locally based services remains dependent on the actual provision of such services by health and local authorities; and if she will make a statement.

  Mr. Yeo
  District health authorities and local authorities, as purchasers of health care, are responsible for securing a comprehensive range of psychiatric services to meet the needs of their resident populations. Health authorities will secure these services by means of contracts with national health service trusts, directly managed units and the independent sector. Local authorities will effect contracts with voluntary and private organisations, as well as providing their own services.

  The White Paper "Caring for People" stresses the importance of health and local authority co-operation in planning services, and in the "Health of the Nation" White Paper this is extended to joint purchasing of services.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will make it her policy that the monitoring of local authority mental health services by the social services inspectorate should be focused on authorities whose residents, or former residents, are short or long-stay patients served by those specialist psychiatric hospitals with plans to close by 1997.
  68
  Mr. Yeo
  No, since confining monitoring of services only to those mentally ill people who have been in-patients would exclude those services to people who have never been admitted to hospital for treatment.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how the Government plans to replace the services currently provided for many patients in large psychiatric institutions for occupational and recreational therapy, long-term high dependency care, and secure wards for mentally ill offenders and others needing security, including access to fresh air and sheltered gardens or grounds.

  Mr. Yeo
  Ministers have repeatedly made clear that the closure of obsolete psychiatric institutions should be preceded by the development of adequate alternative facilities which address the health, social and security needs of the re-located people.

  The responsibility for providing these services rests primarily with district health authorities and local authority social services departments.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how the Government plans to achieve significant improvement in the health and social functioning of severely mentally ill people.

  Mr. Yeo
  We are preparing detailed guidance to managers in both the health service and in the personal social services on their part in harnessing together the existing initiatives and new developments generated by the White Paper "Health of the Nation", to achieve demonstrable improvement in mental health services by specific target dates.

  Child Psychotherapists
  Ms. Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many child psychotherapists are employed(a) within the National Health Service, (b) within the west midlands region and (c) within north Staffordshire.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  The most recent figures available are for September 1991 when the following whole time equivalent child psychotherapists were employed:

  Number

  Great Britain

  198.6

  West Midlands

  6.1

  North Staffordshire

  1.0

  Solvent Abuse
  Mr. Hanson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health when she expects the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs to report on its proposals for targets for the reduction of solvent abuse.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  The Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs is considering a broad range of issues relating to the problem of volatile substance abuse, and will report in due course.

  Social Workers (Training)
  Mr. Elletson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps are taken by the Central Council for Education and Training in Social Work to ensure that approved social workers are trained to deal with the violent and potentially violent mentally ill person.
  69
  Mr. Yeo
  The Central Council for Education and Training in Social Work's (CCETSW's) requirements for the training of approved social workers include prescribed training in the management of violent behaviour. CCETSW is currently reviewing its requirements to ensure that they are up-to-date and effective in preparing approved social workers for all aspects of their responsibilities and to emphasise the skills with which they must be equipped through training. The council will be formerly considering the recommendations of the review at its November meeting.

  Deregulation
  Mr. Sproat
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what financial provisions, and how much, she has made within her Department in order to look at the potential for deregulation of each of the regulatory measures for which she has responsibility.

  Mr. Sackville
  Deregulation considerations form an integral part of the Department's normal working practice in respect of both EC and domestic legislation. It is not possible to provide separate figures for the cost of work on the subject.

  Neuroscience
  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will list the names and distances from Westminster of the nearest six hospitals offering neuroscience services.

  Mr. Sackville
  The information is as follows:

  Miles

  The Middlesex hospital

  2.0

  The National hospital

  2.5

  St. Bartholomews hospital

  2.75

  The Maudsley hospital

  3.5

  The Royal London hospital

  4.0

  The Royal Free hospital

  4.5

  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she expects decisions following the Tomlinson report to precede major spending on moving neurosciences from Shooters hill to Denmark hill.

  Mr. Sackville
  The South East Thames regional health authority is committed to centralising neuroscience services in the region and moving to a single site service. Its plans will be reviewed in the light of the recommendations of the Tomlinson enquiry.

  Abortions
  Dr. Spink
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what self-help groups are available for survivors of attempted abortions; and what assistance her department gives to such groups.

  Mr. Sackville
  The Department of Health does not have information on such self-help groups.

  Dr. Spink
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what records are kept of the cost to the NHS of treating a damaged foetus, and subsequent child and adult, in either the physical or psychological sense, where the damage has arisen as a result of a failed abortion attempt.
  70
  Mr. Sackville
  Such information is not collected centrally.

  Dr. Spink
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what guidelines are issued by her Department to doctors on the counselling of pregnant women who attempt to have the foetus aborted, but where the foetus lives.

  Mr. Sackville
  None.

  Dr. Spink
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) where an abortion fails and the foetus survives to a live birth, what specific records are kept of the consequent damage to that child arising out of the unsuccessful abortion attempt;

  (2) what records are kept of attempted abortions which fail and where the foetus survives.

  Mr. Sackville
  Such information would be recorded in the appropriate clinical records of the woman and child concerned.

  Dr. Spink
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many attempted abortions in the United Kingdom failed and ended in a live birth for each of the last five years.

  Mr. Sackville
  This information is not available.

  Dr. Spink
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what guidance is given to doctors in regard to dealing with abortions where the attempted abortion fails and a live birth follows and, in particular, on the advice given to mothers about whether they should disclose this to the surviving person.

  Mr. Sackville
  None.

  Dr. Spink
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what information she has on the number of people who have attempted to gain legal redress, against the National Health Service or any other body or person, for damages suffered where an abortion failed and the pregnancy resulted in a live birth.

  Mr. Sackville
  I am not aware of any such cases.

  Anaesthetists
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will list by regional health authority the current establishment requirement for anaesthetists; and how many are in post.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  There are currently no "establishment requirements" set for hospital doctors in the National Health Service. The table gives the provisional number of consultant anaesthetists, expressed in the form of "whole-time equivalent", in England, by region as at 30 September 1991 (the latest date for which figures are available).

  Hospital medical consultants anaesthetists in England and by region —30 September 1991 (provisional figures)

  Whole Time Equivalent

  England

  2,030

  Northern

  130

  Yorkshire

  140

  Trent

  200

  East Anglia

  90

  North West Thames

  110

  71

  Whole Time Equivalent

  North East Thames

  160

  South East Thames

  160

  South West Thames

  110

  Wessex

  120

  Oxford

  90

  South Western

  140

  West Midlands

  250

  Mersey

  120

  North Western

  180

  SHAs

  30

  Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. Seals

  Seals
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what beneficial medical by-products of the Greenland, harp, hooded or crested seal are recognised by her Department; and if she will make a statement.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  Records are held on licensed medicinal products and medical devices rather than medical by-products. These show that there are currently no such products making use of, or containing, extracts of seal.

  Drug Imports
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what plans her Department's Medicines Control Agency has for proposals for reviewing the introduction of a requirement for all drug imports into the United Kingdom to have documentation certifying their country of origin; and if she will make a statement.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  There are no plans to review the introduction of such a requirement. The United Kingdom licensing system is kept under constant review and amendments are made when considered necessary.

  Extra-contractual Referrals
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what progress her Department is making in respect of extra-contractual referrals being made more readily available for patients requesting them; and if she will make a statement.

  Mr. Sackville
  We have always made clear that general practitioners are free to refer their patients to whichever hospital or other unit best meets the needs of the patient. We remain committed to this principle.

  Mr. Blunkett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what proportion of extra-contractual referrals were refused in each regional health authority in 1991–92.

  Mr. Sackville
  This information is not collected centrally.

  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will list by regional health authority how many extra-contractual referrals were returned during the financial years(a) 1991–92 and (b) 1992–93 to date.

  Mr. Sackville
  This information is not collected centrally.

  West Midlands Air Ambulance Service
  Ms. Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will take steps to safeguard the funding of the West Midlands air ambulance service.
  72
  Mr. Sackville
  Air ambulance services are currently under evaluation and, until this has been completed, no investment is being made from central funds. In the meantime, it is for health authorities in West Midlands region, as purchasers, to decide whether to fund this service from their financial allocations.

  Theatre Sessions
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will list the average weekly number of theatre sessions for each regional health authority for the year ended March 1992 and for the current year to date.

  Mr. Sackville
  The available information is given in the table.

  Operating theatre sessions: average number per week in 1991–92 (provisional)

  RHA

  Scheduled sessions held

  Weekly rate

  Northern

  53,089

  1,019

  Yorkshire

  57,949

  1,112

  Trent

  64,970

  1,247

  East Anglian

  32,242

  619

  North West Thames

  48,558

  932

  North East Thames

  68,513

  1,315

  South East Thames

  63,258

  1,214

  South West Thames

  50,364

  967

  Wessex

  43,165

  829

  Oxford

  34,098

  654

  South Western

  54,799

  1,052

  West Midlands

  79,674

  1,529

  Mersey

  46,532

  893

  North Western

  79,617

  1,528

  Special health authorities

  15,631

  300

  Air Pollutants
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what preliminary reports she has received from the advisory committee she set up on the assessment of exposure to air pollutants on health; when she hopes to have the committee's final conclusions; and if she will make a statement.

  Mr. Sackville
  I refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave him on 10 June at columns 221–22. The Advisory Group on the Medical Aspects of Air Pollution Episodes was set up to look at the short term health effects of exposure to specific air pollutants.

  The Group's second report on "Sulphur Dioxide, Acid Aerosols and Particulates" is to be published shortly and a copy will be placed in the Library.

  The group currently studying the oxides of nitrogen and its third report is expected to be published in 1993.

  This year the Department also set up the committee on the medical effects of air pollutants which held its inaugural meeting at the end of May. Its terms of reference are:
  "At the request of the Department of Health,
  (a) to assess and advise Government on the effects upon health of air pollutants both in indoor and outdoor air, and to assess the adequacy of the available data and the need for research.
  (b)to co-ordinate with other bodies concerned with the assessment of the effects of exposure to air pollutants and the associated risks to health and to advise on new scientific discoveries relevant to the effects of air pollutants upon health."
  73
  The Department has asked the committee to advise on the link between exposure to low levels of air pollution and asthma, the effects of exposure to ambient levels of carbon monoxide in urban areas, and the effects of exposure to benzene.

  Food Poisoning
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many cases of food poisoning have been notified to the OPCS for England and Wales for each year since 1980; if she will provide a total figure and a regional breakdown of the total; and if she will make a statement.

  Mr. Sackville
  The information is shown in the table.

  Notifications of food poisoning which were: (a) formally notified; (b) ascertained by other means; and (c) total for England and Wales (not including port health authorities) and by regional health authority (RHA), 19802

  19801

  RHA

  a

  b

  c

  England and Wales

  10,071

  n/a

  10,071

  Wales

  438

  n/a

  438

  Northern

  504

  n/a

  504

  Yorkshire

  1,065

  n/a

  1,065

  Trent

  820

  n/a

  820

  East Anglian

  279

  n/a

  279

  North West Thames

  743

  n/a

  743

  North East Thames

  804

  n/a

  804

  South East Thames

  622

  n/a

  622

  South West Thames

  662

  n/a

  662

  Wessex

  373

  n/a

  373

  Oxford

  636

  n/a

  636

  South Western

  618

  n/a

  618

  West Midlands

  1,190

  n/a

  1,190

  Mersey

  360

  n/a

  360

  North Western

  957

  n/a

  957

  1The number of food poisoning cases 'ascertained by other means' other than formal notification, were first reported to OPCS by local authorities in 1982.

  2Provisional.

  Notifications of food poisoning which were: (a) formally notified; (b) ascertained by other means; and (c) total for England and Wales (not including port healt authorities) and by regional health authority (RHA), 19812

  19811

  RHA

  a

  b

  c

  England and Wales

  9,925

  n/a

  9,925

  Wales

  528

  n/a

  528

  Northern

  810

  n/a

  810

  Yorkshire

  866

  n/a

  866

  Trent

  715

  n/a

  715

  East Anglian

  217

  n/a

  217

  North West Thames

  815

  n/a

  815

  North East Thames

  642

  n/a

  642

  South East Thames

  596

  n/a

  596

  South West Thames

  641

  n/a

  641

  Wessex

  481

  n/a

  481

  Oxford

  583

  n/a

  583

  South Western

  536

  n/a

  536

  West Midlands

  982

  n/a

  982

  Mersey

  469

  n/a

  469

  North Western

  1,044

  n/a

  1,044

  1The number of food poisoning cases 'ascertained by other means' other than formal notification, were first reported to OPCS by local authorities in 1982.

  2Provisional.

  74

  Notifications of food poisoning which were: (a) formally notified; (b) ascertained by other means; and (c) total for England and Wales (not including port health authorities) and by regional health authority (RHA), 19821

  19821

  RHA

  a

  b

  c

  England and Wales

  9,954

  4,288

  14,242

  Wales

  598

  68

  666

  Northern

  457

  154

  611

  Yorkshire

  1,247

  471

  1,718

  Trent

  609

  308

  917

  East Anglian

  262

  104

  366

  North West Thames

  923

  281

  1,204

  North East Thames

  912

  435

  1,347

  South East Thames

  659

  96

  755

  South West Thames

  660

  606

  1,266

  Wessex

  457

  258

  715

  Oxford

  574

  207

  781

  South Western

  428

  261

  689

  West Midlands

  875

  454

  1,329

  Mersey

  294

  164

  458

  North Western

  999

  421

  1,420

  1Provisional.

  Notifications of food poisoning which were: (a) formally notified; (b) ascertained by other means; and (c) total for England and Wales (not including port health authorities) authority (RHA), 19831

  19831

  RHA

  a

  b

  c

  England and Wales

  12,265

  5,461

  17,726

  Wales

  654

  51

  705

  Northern

  913

  148

  1,061

  Yorkshire

  1,592

  463

  2,055

  Trent

  698

  375

  1,073

  East Anglian

  374

  241

  615

  North West Thames

  1,060

  637

  1,697

  North East Thames

  907

  427

  1,334

  South East Thames

  894

  176

  1,070

  South West Thames

  745

  665

  1,410

  Wessex

  726

  205

  931

  Oxford

  705

  191

  896

  South Western

  634

  528

  1,162

  West Midlands

  986

  688

  1,674

  Mersey

  445

  204

  649

  North Western

  932

  462

  1,394

  2Provisional.

  Notifications of food poisoning (a) formally notified; (b) ascertained by other means; and (c) total for England and Wales (not including port health authorities) and by regional health authority ( RHA), 198411

  1984

  RHA

  a

  b

  c

  England and Wales

  13,247

  7,455

  20,702

  Wales

  830

  147

  977

  Northern

  859

  437

  1,296

  Yorkshire

  1,664

  896

  2,560

  Trent

  893

  507

  1,400

  East Anglian

  400

  246

  646

  North West Thames

  1,174

  728

  1,902

  North East Thames

  1,206

  783

  1,989

  South East Thames

  1,024

  227

  1,251

  South West Thames

  620

  689

  1,309

  Wessex

  692

  187

  879

  Oxford

  615

  319

  934

  South Western

  812

  624

  1,436

  West Midlands

  1,081

  861

  1,942

  Mersey

  418

  171

  589

  North Western

  959

  633

  1,592

  1Provisional.

  75

  Notifications of food poisoning which were: (a) formally notified; (b) ascertained by other means; and (c) total for England and Wales (not including port health authorities) and by regional health authority (RHA). 19851

  19851

  RHA

  a

  b

  c

  England and Wales

  13,124

  6,091

  19,215

  Wales

  1,167

  164

  1,331

  Northern

  747

  241

  988

  Yorkshire

  891

  409

  1,300

  Trent

  889

  401

  1,290

  East Anglian

  375

  115

  490

  North West Thames

  1,169

  717

  1,886

  North East Thames

  1,174

  480

  1,654

  South East Thames

  1,079

  260

  1,339

  South West Thames

  920

  550

  1,470

  Wessex

  743

  339

  1,082

  Oxford

  661

  208

  869

  South Western

  700

  467

  1,167

  West Midlands

  1,129

  793

  1,922

  Mersey

  391

  260

  651

  North Western

  1,089

  687

  1,776

  1Provisional.

  Notifications of food poisoning which were: (a) formally notified; (b) ascertained by other means; and (c) total for England and Wales (not including port health authorities) and by regional health authority (RHA), 19861

  19861

  RHA

  a

  b

  c

  England and Wales

  16,498

  7,439

  23,937

  Wales

  1,234

  179

  1,413

  Northern

  873

  597

  1,470

  Yorkshire

  1,157

  704

  1,861

  Trent

  1,177

  278

  1,455

  East Anglian

  542

  152

  694

  North West Thames

  1,143

  712

  1,855

  North East Thames

  1,591

  599

  2,190

  South East Thames

  1,253

  376

  1,629

  South West Thames

  1,111

  605

  1,716

  Wessex

  893

  413

  1,306

  Oxford

  952

  203

  1,155

  South Western

  1,092

  452

  1,544

  West Midlands

  1,368

  1,074

  2,442

  Mersey

  533

  203

  736

  North Western

  1,579

  892

  2,471

  1Provisional.

  Notifications of food poisoning which were: (a) formally notified; (b) ascertained by other means; and (c) total for England and Wales (not including port health authorities) and by regional health authority (RHA). 19871

  1987

  RHA

  a

  b

  c

  England and Wales

  20,348

  8,929

  29,277

  Wales

  1,300

  374

  1,674

  Northern

  1,301

  657

  1,958

  Yorkshire

  1,507

  1,071

  2,578

  Trent

  1,920

  329

  2,249

  East Anglian

  623

  255

  878

  North West Thames

  1,534

  825

  2,359

  North East Thames

  2,073

  583

  2,656

  South East Thames

  1,706

  382

  2,088

  South West Thames

  1,376

  631

  2,007

  Wessex

  848

  690

  1,538

  Oxford

  1,139

  257

  1,396

  South Western

  1,171

  631

  1,802

  West Midlands

  1,426

  1,242

  2,668

  Mersey

  691

  168

  859

  North Western

  1,733

  834

  2,567

  1Provisional.

  76

  Notifications of food poisoning which were: (a) formally notified; (b) ascertained by other means; and (c) total for England and Wales (not including port health authorities) and by regional health authority (RHA). 19881

  1988

  RHA

  a

  b

  c

  England and Wales

  27,819

  11,885

  39,704

  Wales

  1,621

  329

  1,950

  Northern

  1,688

  670

  2,358

  Yorkshire

  2,604

  1,723

  4,327

  Trent

  2,763

  805

  3,568

  East Anglian

  923

  215

  1,138

  North West Thames

  1,856

  736

  2,592

  North East Thames

  2,439

  582

  3,021

  South East Thames

  2,315

  405

  2,720

  South West Thames

  1,848

  869

  2,717

  Wessex

  1,085

  800

  1,885

  Oxford

  1,472

  390

  1,862

  South Western

  1,785

  748

  2,533

  West Midlands

  1,798

  2,188

  3,986

  Mersey

  1,557

  239

  1,796

  North Western

  2,065

  1,186

  3,251

  1Provisional.

  Notifications of food poisoning which were: (a) formally notified; (b) ascertained by other means; and (c) total for England and Wales (not including port health authorities) and by regional health authority (RHA). 19891

  1989

  RHA

  a

  b

  c

  England and Wales

  38,042

  14,450

  52,492

  Wales

  2,477

  446

  2,923

  Northern

  2,687

  1,214

  3,901

  Yorkshire

  3,582

  1,468

  5,050

  Trent

  4,075

  805

  4,880

  East Anglian

  1,081

  205

  1,286

  North West Thames

  2,205

  852

  3,057

  North East Thames

  3,037

  734

  3,771

  South East Thames

  2,974

  585

  3,559

  South West Thames

  2,314

  724

  3,038

  Wessex

  1,614

  1,101

  2,715

  Oxford

  1,957

  545

  2,502

  South Western

  2,166

  1,197

  3,363

  West Midlands

  2,962

  2,433

  5,395

  Mersey

  2,431

  311

  2,742

  North Western

  2,480

  1,830

  4,310

  1Provisional.

  Notifications of food poisoning which were: (a) formally notified; (b) ascertained by other means; and (c) total for England and Wales (not including port health authorities) and by regional health authority (RHA), 19902

  19901

  RHA

  a

  b

  c

  England and Wales

  36,945

  15,200

  52,145

  Wales

  2,528

  495

  3,023

  Northern

  2,881

  1,047

  3,928

  Yorkshire

  3,920

  1,721

  5,641

  Trent

  3,621

  1,247

  4,868

  East Anglian

  1,164

  254

  1,418

  North West Thames

  2,507

  731

  3,238

  North East Thames

  2,756

  775

  3,531

  South East Thames

  2,502

  780

  3,282

  South West Thames

  2,160

  913

  3,073

  Wessex

  1,568

  1,147

  2,715

  Oxford

  2,191

  488

  2,679

  South Western

  2,510

  1,272

  3,782

  West Midlands

  2,831

  2,548

  5,379

  Mersey

  1,670

  143

  1,813

  North Western

  2,136

  1,639

  3,775

  1Provisional.

  77

  Notifications of food poisoning which were: (a) formally notified; (b) ascertained by other means; and (c) total for England and Wales (not including port health authorities) and by regional health authority (RHA), 19911

  19911

  RHA

  a

  b

  c

  England and Wales

  35,289

  17,251

  52,540

  Wales

  2,715

  670

  3,385

  Northern

  2,427

  1,301

  3,728

  Yorkshire

  3,759

  1,903

  5,662

  Trent

  3,196

  1,468

  4,664

  East Anglian

  956

  552

  1,508

  North West Thames

  2,516

  761

  3,277

  North East Thames

  2,550

  752

  3,302

  South East Thames

  2,637

  638

  3,275

  South West Thames

  2,130

  1,262

  3,392

  Wessex

  1,522

  1,367

  2,889

  Oxford

  1,823

  510

  2,333

  South Western

  2,102

  1,377

  3,479

  West Midlands

  3,224

  2,285

  5,509

  Mersey

  1,418

  187

  1,605

  North Western

  2,314

  2,218

  4,532

  1Provisional.

  Waiting Lists
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will list the numbers of patients waiting for in-patient treatment on 31 March, for each individual health authority(a) in total and (b) by main speciality for periods (i) under 12 months, (ii) 12 to 24 months and (iii) over 24 months.

  Mr. Sackville
  The information requested is given in the publication "Hospital Waiting List, In-Patients and Day Cases" (ISBN 1 85839 003 6), a copy of which is available in the Library.

  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will list the numbers of patients waiting for out-patient treatment on 31 March, for each individual health authority(a) in total and (b) by main speciality for periods (i) under 12 months, (ii) 12 to 24 months and (iii) over 24 months.

  Mr. Sackville
  Figures for out-patient waiting times are not collected centrally. All health authorities are required under the patients charter to publish information on the local standards they have set for waiting times for first out-patient appointments and on performance against these targets.

  Mr. Blunkett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will publish details of patient waiting lists by regional health authority area for(a) July, (b) August and (c) September of the current year.

  Mr. Sackville
  On 11 August we announced that, in future, provisional waiting time figures would be published on a quarterly basis. Figures for the three months to 30 September 1992 are not yet available centrally.

  Medical Records
  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what arrangements exist for the transfer of medical records for the national health service to registered medical practitioners in other European Community countries when British citizens move to other countries in the European Community for work or retirement.
  78
  Mr. Sackville
  General practitioner medical records are the property of the national health service and are retained in the country for NHS purposes including the possible future care and treatment of the patient. Patients who plan to live abroad may approach their GP to obtain a precis of their medical history or a copy of their medical records to give to any practitioner in the new country of residence.

  Leukaemia
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she is yet in a position to publish the findings of the study undertaken by the north London blood transfusion service on behalf of her Department, into the risks associated with blood transfusions involving human T-cell leukaemia; what plans she has to ask other blood transfusion services to carry out similar studies on behalf of her Department; and if she will make a statement.

  Mr. Sackville
  The north London blood transfusion centre (NLBTC) undertook a study on behalf of the United Kingdom blood transfusion services, to determine the prevalence of antibodies to human T-cell leukaemia/ lymphoma virus (HTLV) in the blood of a sample donor population. Preliminary results of that study were published in abstract form at the British Blood Transfusion Society annual meeting, Nottingham 1991 and again in abstract form at the Montpelier symposium on HTLV held in March 1992. I have arranged for copies of those abstracts to be placed in the Library.

  The NLBTC is now undertaking a more detailed analysis of the findings with a view to submitting them shortly for publication in a scientific journal.

  The independent expert advisory committee which advises Ministers on topics relevant to the safety of the blood supply, will keep under review developments concerning HTLV and its detection. It will also review whether further studies or other measures are necessary to maintain the safety of the blood supply. I will write to the hon. Member with further details.

  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will make it her policy to hold centrally records by regional health authorities of the number of cases of cancer that have been reported that were associated with the virus human T-cell leukaemia, including the number of those cases that proved fatal; and if she will make a statement.

  Mr. Sackville
  I have no plans to introduce such a policy.

  Ambulance Service
  Mr. Shersby
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will publish the criteria which need to be satisfied when calling for an ambulance to respond in an emergency.

  Mr. Sackville
  Anyone may call an NHS ambulance following an accident, sudden illness or collapse.

  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what information her Department has concerning the ratio between activated and stand-by time of emergency ambulance areas generally necessary to achieve ORCON standards under different patterns of population and traffic density.
  79
  Mr. Sackville
  The deployment of ambulance personnel and vehicles to meet national emergency performance standards is a matter for local ambulance service providers and their purchasers.

  Orimulsion
  Mr. Dafis
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what research has been conducted by her Department on the effects of the toxic ash particles upon the human lung produced during the burning of orimulsion.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  None. Biomedical research is a matter for the Medical Research Council which is funded by the Office of Science and Technology.

  The burning of orimulsion produces relatively high levels of sulphur dioxide, vanadium and nickel compared with other fuels. However, owing to tight controls being implemented as a result of European Community directives, trace quantities of toxic chemicals which are emitted from incinerators and other combustion processes, should not be at levels which would be expected to cause adverse health effects.

  Inflammatory Bowel Disorder
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will make it her practice to hold central records from regional health authorities of the average current delay between patients reporting(a) symptoms starting and (b) diagnosis of patients with inflammatory bowel disorder; and if she will make a statement.

  Mr. Sackville
  It would be neither appropriate nor cost effective to collect this information centrally.

  Skin Cancer
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what information her Department holds on the United Kingdom morbidity and mortality rates for skin cancer in each year since 1979; and if she will make a statement.

  Mr. Sackville
  The information is shown in the table.

  There has been a rise in the number of cases of skin cancer (non-melanotic cancer and the rarer malignant melanoma) in recent years. On the latest available information there are about 28,000 cases of skin cancer a year and about 1,500 deaths. The main risk factor which is believed to account for the increase in incidence is the increased extent to which people expose themselves to ultraviolet radiation (UV), primarily sunlight.

  Mortality and incidence rates (per 100,000 population) for malignant melanoma of skin (1CD 172), and other malignant neoplasm of skin (ICD 173), for Great Britain 1979–1991.

  Mortality Rate

  Incidence Rate

  172

  173

  172

  173

  1979

  1.63

  0.78

  3.81

  40.32

  1980

  1.65

  0.74

  4.04

  41.75

  1981

  1.74

  0.77

  4.20

  43.65

  1982

  1.90

  0.76

  4.36

  42.91

  1983

  1.72

  0.82

  4.71

  44.80

  1984

  2.00

  0.88

  4.70

  45.78

  1985

  1.98

  0.93

  5.60

  48.08

  1986

  2.08

  0.82

  5.88

  54.34

  1987

  2.05

  0.88

  2—

  —

  80

  Mortality Rate

  Incidence Rate

  173

  172

  172

  173

  1988

  2.14

  0.85

  —

  —

  1989

  2.17

  0.88

  —

  —

  1990

  2.31

  0.86

  —

  —

  11991

  2.30

  0.92

  —

  —

  1 1991 population figures are not available and consequently 1990 population figures have been used to calculate the 1991 mortality rate.

  2 Registration data for the calculation of incidence rates 1987–1991 are not available.

  Source OPCS DH2 Mortality Statistics, MB I Cancer Registrations.

  Scottish Cancer Registration Scheme,

  Information and Statistics Division,

  Common Services Agency.

  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what estimate Her Majesty's Government has made of projected increases in skin cancer resulting from a 1 per cent. decline in the total column ozone; and if she will make a statement.

  Mr. Sackville
  Exposure to ultraviolet radiation (UV) is an important factor influencing the number of cases of skin cancer which develop, and levels of UV at ground level are influenced by changes of levels of ozone in the stratosphere. However, stratopheric ozone levels are just one of the factors influencing the amount of UV reaching the ground. Seasonal variations in solar UV levels and short term variations due to cloud cover and local weather conditions are far in excess of any variations anticipated as a result of ozone depletion. The position is further complicated by variability in people's behaviour in relation to exposure to sunlight. Estimates of increases in skin cancer based solely on an estimate of ozone depletion would be misleading.

  Thyroid Cancer
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will list by regional health authority, and by year since 1985, including the current year to date, the number of cases of thyroid cancer that have been reported and the number of cases that involved(a) children and (b) adults.

  Mr. Sackville
  The information is shown in the table.

  Number of cases of malignant neoplasm of the thyroid gland1 for England and Wales, Regional health authority, 1985–87

  1985

  1986

  1987

  England and Wales

  679

  734

  755

  Wales

  58

  39

  60

  Northern

  38

  49

  42

  Yorkshire

  53

  47

  49

  Trent

  55

  84

  65

  East Anglian

  28

  41

  27

  North West Thames

  46

  57

  41

  North East Thames

  28

  39

  44

  South East Thames

  60

  41

  47

  South West Thames

  39

  38

  40

  Wessex

  55

  39

  50

  Oxford

  —

  40

  44

  South Western

  58

  62

  51

  West Midlands

  84

  74

  100

  Mersey

  26

  28

  35

  North Western

  51

  56

  60

  1 International Classification Disease code 193.

  81

  Number of cases of malignant neoplasm of the thyroid gland for England and Wales, Regional health authority, 1985–87 by age breakdown

  1985

  1986

  1987

  Under 15

  15+ over

  Under 15

  15+ over

  Under 15

  15+ over

  England and Wales

  4

  675

  6

  728

  6

  749

  Wales

  3

  55

  —

  39

  —

  60

  Northern

  —

  38

  —

  49

  1

  41

  Yorkshire

  —

  53

  —

  47

  —

  49

  Trent

  —

  55

  —

  84

  —

  65

  East Anglian

  —

  28

  —

  41

  —

  27

  North West Thames

  —

  46

  1

  56

  11

  41

  North East Thames

  —

  28

  —

  39

  44

  South East Thames

  —

  60

  1

  40

  47

  South West Thames

  —

  39

  1

  37

  40

  Wessex

  —

  55

  —

  39

  1

  49

  Oxford

  —

  1

  39

  2

  42

  South Western

  —

  58

  1

  61

  —

  51

  West Midlands

  —

  84

  —

  74

  1

  99

  Mersey

  —

  26

  1

  27

  —

  35

  North Western

  1

  50

  —

  56

  —

  60

  1 One case of malignant neoplasm of the thyroid gland 1 or 1987 only identifiable as Thames.

  Foster Care
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will make it her policy to introduce a minimum weekly allowance to foster carers on a sliding scale based on the age of the child cared for.

  Mr. Yeo
  No.

  NHS Trusts
  Mr. Blunkett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many NHS trust boards have held(a) one to six or (b) more than six public consultative meetings.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  The information requested is not collected centrally. Every national health service trust is required to hold one public meeting every year, other than in the year it became operational.

  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will list by NHS trust, the number of staff who are currently in NHS pensions schemes and those who have elected to change to a private pension scheme run on behalf of the trust.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  This information is not held centrally.

  Mr. Blunkett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will publish details of the current level of remuneration for(a) chairs and (b) non-executive directors of NHS trust boards.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  Chairmen are remunerated in one of three bands dependent on the revenue turnover of the trust (or its equivalent) in a given financial year (1988–89). The bandings are shown in the table.

  Unit turnover 1988–89

  Current rates

  £

  Band 1

  Turnover in excess of £50 million

  19,285

  Band 2

  Turnover between £20–£50 million

  17,145

  Band 3

  Turnover less than £20 million

  15,125

  Non-executive directors are paid at a flat rate of £5,000 per annum.
  82
  Mr. Blunkett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many NHS trust boards admit community health council representatives into their meetings.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  This information is not held centrally. Community health councils have the right to attend any national health service trust meeting which is open to the public. It is up to the individual trust to decide whether to invite the community health council to attend meetings which are otherwise closed to the public.

  Mr. Alfred Morris
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what criteria will determine her decision as between expressions of interest in trust status from south Manchester; and if she will make a statement.

  Mr. Sackville
  These expressions of interest will be considered against five criteria, taking into account patient choice and competition, the extent to which clinical services and management are already integrated, size and range of services, effect on purchasing and local views.

  Water Fluoridation
  Mr. Shersby
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what cost benefit analyses have been carried out by her Department on the reduction of dental caries in children that would result from fluoridation of the drinking water supply in those areas where no artificial fluoridation is being carried out and where naturally occurring levels are below 1 part per million; and if she will make a statement.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  It is for individual health authorities to consider whether water fluoridation in their area is cost effective, taking into account local factors. No cost benefit analyses have been carried out by the Department.

  Potatoes
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what information her Department holds on the health risks to consumers through the consumption of potatoes that have been treated with Tecnazene.

  Mr. Sackville
  Tecnazene, as with all pesticides, is approved for use following advice from the statutory advisory committee on pesticides. It has concluded that there is currently no evidence of risk to the health of consumers arising from the use of tecnazene on potatoes but is continuing its review of all the available data.
  83
  The Department holds copies of the scientific papers on this matter that have been put before the committee. Once the committee has completed its review an evaluation document which will contain an assessment of all these data will be published.

  Atopic Illnesses
  Mr. Anthony Coombs
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many cases of asthma and other atopic illnesses were reported in(a) 1990, (b) 1991 and (c) 1992 to date; and how many of these were children under 10 years of age.

  Mr. Sackville
  This information is not held centrally.

  Dentistry
  Mrs. Dunwoody
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps she intends to take to increase awareness of patients' rights to claim reductions in, or exemptions from, charges for dental treatment.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  Under the new dental contract introduced in October 1990, dentists are, for the first time, required to display in a prominent position at their practice premises a notice, indicating national health service charges which are payable under general dental services and giving details of entitlement to exemption from and remission of such NHS charges. In addition there are already leaflets available to the public on dental charges and NHS charges more generally. A complementary series of leaflets in ethnic languages is planned for the near future.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what is her estimate of the current number of dentists(a) in the NHS, (b) in private practice and (c) practising both privately and in the NHS; what are the comparable figures for the previous five years; and if she will make a statement on the trends.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  The number of dentists providing general dental services in England under the national health service as at 30 September each year was as follows:

  Year

  Number

  1987

  14,765

  1988

  15,070

  1989

  15,351

  1990

  15,480

  1991

  15,451

  These figures are consistent with the increase of nearly 30 per cent. since 1978 in the numbers of dentists providing dental treatment under the NHS.

  The figures do not include dentists who provide treatment under the hospital and community dental services.

  The information requested on the numbers of dentists who practise privately, in whole or in part, is not held centrally.

  Smoking
  Mrs. Dunwoody
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will make a statement on the actions taken by Her Majesty's Government to assist the work of Action on Smoking and Health in publicising the dangers of cigarette smoking.
  84
  Dr. Mawhinney
  The Department has a long history of supporting the valuable work carried out by Action on Smoking and Health (ASH) and awarded it a three year grant of £241,500 per year which began in 1991. In addition, the "Health of the Nation" gives a commitment to continued support to the leading role played by ASH in disseminating information, encouraging action by others and providing advice and support.

  Mrs. Dunwoody
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what proposals she has to increase awareness of the long-term effects of smoking during pregnancy on children.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  The Department is providing funding of £1 million over two years towards a Health Education Authority project being run specifically for this purpose. In addition, the "Health of the Nation" gives a commitment to achieve a target of a 30 per cent. reduction in the number of women who smoke at the start of their pregnancy by the year 2000.

  Disability Legislation
  Mrs. Dunwoody
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will list the provisions of the Disabled Persons (Services, Consultation and Representation) Act 1986 which(a) have been implemented and (b) have not yet been implemented.

  Mr. Yeo
  The information requested is as follows:

  a. Implemented on 1 April 1987

  Section 4 (duty on local authorities to assess need)

  Section 8(1) (duty to have regard to abilities of carers)

  Section 9 (provision of information)

  Section 10 (duty to consult organisations of disabled people when making appointments)

  Implemented on 1 February 1988

  Sections 5 and 6 (identification and assessment of disabled school leavers)

  Implemented on 18 December 1989

  Section 11 (report to Parliament on community care for mentally ill and mentally handicapped people)

  b. Non-implemented sections

  Sections 1 and 2 (appointment and rights of authorised representatives of disabled people)

  Section 3 (provision of written statements of assessment)

  Section 7 (identification and assessment of the needs of people leaving hospital after treatment for six months or more for a mental disorder)

  Sections 8(2) and 8(3) (these are linked to section 3)

  The requirements of the non-implemented sections are now, to a very large extent, reflected in our new and wide-ranging reforms of community care, which demonstrate our commitment to high quality care which is responsive to the needs and wishes of service users and carers. The need to implement these sections will be reviewed in the light of several years' experience of the community care arrangements.

  Asbestosis
  Ms. Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps she will take to implement an ethical code of practice for the diagnosis and treatment of terminal victims suffering from asbestosis.
  85
  Mr. Sackville
  The Department of Health has no plans to implement such a code. Ethical issues relating to the diagnosis and treatment of the terminally ill are primarily a matter for the health care professions.

  Clinical Regrading
  Ms. Janet Anderson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will list for each health district in England and Wales the number of applications for clinical regrading still outstanding.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  This information is not collected centrally.

  Sir Alan Greengross
  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what correspondence she has received from Sir Alan Greengross concerning his resignation as chair of Islington and Bloomsbury health authority; and if she will make a statement.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  Sir Alan Greengross wrote to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on 23 June 1992. His decision to stand down as chairman of the Bloomsbury and Islington district health authority with effect from 31 July 1992 has been accepted.

  Tobacco-related Diseases
  Mr. Blunkett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what is her estimate of the total number of tobacco-related deaths in 1991–92.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  It is estimated that in the United Kingdom about 110,000 deaths each year are smoking related.

  Mr. Blunkett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what is her estimate of the cost to the NHS of smoking-related diseases in 1990–91 and 1991–92.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  Treatment costs to the national health service are estimated to be £437 million annually. This figure is for hospital costs only and does not include the costs of the care given by GPs or at health clinics or other care in the community.

  Tobacco Advertising
  Mr. Blunkett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what plans she has to publish the Smee report; and if she will make a statement.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  A study on the effects of tobacco advertising will be published shortly.

  Mrs. Roe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if the draft EC directive on tobacco product advertising (EC document 6748/91) will be discussed at the Council of Health Ministers on 13 November.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  The agenda for Health Council on 13 November is not yet fixed. It is likely that the tobacco advertising directive will be discussed without a vote being taken.

  Mrs. Roe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health, pursuant to the answer of 15 May,Official Report, column
  86
  167, to the hon. Member for Newport, West (Mr. Flynn), when and in what form she now expects to make available the report of her chief economic adviser on the impact of banning tobacco advertising; and if she will make a statement.

  Mr. Austin-Walker
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health when she expects to make public the findings of the Smee report; and if she will make a statement.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  The Department of Health's report on the effects of tobacco advertising on tobacco consumption will be published shortly.

  Wigan Area Health Authority
  Mr. Stott
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what is the current remuneration of the chairman of the Wigan area health authority.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  The figure is £17,145.

  Arts for Health
  Mr. Alfred Morris
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what proposals she has for ensuring that the arts make the fullest possible contribution to the quality of the health care environment; and if she will make a statement indicating, in particular, what role she sees for Arts for Health, established in 1988 at Manchester polytechnic, as the first centre offering a national service;

  (2) what study her Department has made of the pioneering work and achievements of Arts for Health; what consideration is being given to funding an expansion of its work in hospital and if she will make a statement.

  Mr. Sackville
  Ministers have long recognised the valuable contribution the arts can make within the national health service. My department has published three guidance documents on the subject, "Art in the NHS", "The Arts in a Health District" and "Art and Health Care". As part of the NHS management executive's quality initiative, the arts were introduced into the outpatient department demonstration project and have made a valuable contribution. At the "Hospital and Care Premises Management Conference" held in Birmingham between 29 September and 1 October 1992 the arts featured prominently in sessions on "The Caring Environment" and "The International Aspects of Healthcare Design".

  While Ministers are supportive of the many initiatives throughout the country, it is for local decision, NHS trust or directly managed unit, as to whether they use the services offered by "Arts for Health" or any other organisation in this field. No moneys are specifically voted for the arts in my Department.

  Cancelled Operations
  Mr. Blunkett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will publish a table showing for each regional health authority area the proportion of operations cancelled in 1991–92 showing the figures in numbers and as a percentage of the total number of operations.

  Mr. Sackville
  The information is not available centrally.

  Midland Centre for Neurosurgery and Neurology
  Dr. Lynne Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what representations she has received on the lack of provision of magnetic resonance imaging at the midland centre for neurosurgery and neurology; and if she will make a statement.

  Mr. Sackville
  We have received a number of representations on this subject. In March we announced the successful bids for additional money for whole body scanners and other medical equipment. This included a proposal for a magnetic resonance imager to support a combined neuroscience facility in Birmingham. Decisions on the provision of these services and location of this equipment are matters for West Midlands regional health authority.

  Charitable Trusts
  Mr. Blunkett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many hospitals in(a) England and (b) London have access to charitable trusts; and what role her Department plays in monitoring the use of those trust moneys.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  Very nearly all hospitals in England will benefit from trust funds held by their health authority, national health service trust or special trustees. As charitable funds, these are subject to the supervision of the Charity Commission. The Secretary of State for Health prescribes the format of annual accounts and the financial central environment, and receives any reports produced by statutory auditors relating to these accounts.

  Trust Hospitals
  Mr. Blunkett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many trust hospitals have(a) public relations budgets and (b) use outside consultants for public relations purposes; and if she will make a statement.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  The information requested is not available centrally. It is a matter for national health service trusts to decide what use they make of public relations expertise to present themselves and the services they offer as part of the national health service to the authorities who purchase those services and the public who use them.

  American Companies
  Mr. Blunkett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will make a statement on the activities of National Medical Enterprises and the Psychiatric Institute of America in relation to health services in the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Sackville
  National Medical Enterprises and its United States counterpart are parent companies of an independent United Kingdom health care provider but do not, themselves provide health care in the United Kingdom.

  NHS Information
  Mr. Blunkett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will list the categories of information relating to the national health service of which her Department has discontinued publication since 9 April; and if she will make a statement.
  88
  Mr. Sackville
  There are no categories of information for which publication has been discontinued since 9 April.

  The need for the national health service to provide information to the Department of Health is under review. If information which is currently provided is clearly identified as being unnecessary for the management of the health service, that burden will be lifted from the national health service. A consequence of this would be that the information would no longer be available for central publication.

  Lung Cancer
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what new initiatives she plans to reduce the incidence of lung cancer in women.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  Reducing the incidence of lung cancer in women will mainly depend on reducing the prevalence of smoking. "The Health of the Nation" includes a target to reduce smoking among women from 28 per cent. in 1990 to 20 per cent. by the year 2000. The White Paper sets out a comprehensive strategy to achieve the target, including action on price, health education, ensuring effective controls on advertising and a greater national health service role in reducing smoking.

OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT

  Iraqi Shias
  Miss Emma Nicholson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs is he will provide financial and logistical support for members of the all-party group for Iraqi Shias to monitor the delivery of aid in southern Iraq and related matters.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  There is no provision within the aid programme or elsewhere within the FCO's financial resources for funding monitoring visits by members of all party groups. ODA is providing finance for assistance to southern Iraq through non-governmental organisations, including those with which my hon. Friend is associated.

  While suitable arrangements for monitoring this aid are important, members of the all party group for Iraqi Shias will be aware of the Iraqi Government's consistent refusal to renew the United Nation's humanitarian operations in Iraq, and of their rejection of the proposal to place United Nations human rights monitors in the south to report on the situation. In these circumstances the United Kingdom Government would not wish to encourage United Kingdom citizens to enter the region.

  Southern Africa
  Mr. O'Hara
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what action Her Majesty's Government are taking for the provision of extra resources to help the recovery of agriculture in the drought-affected areas of southern Africa; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  Since the beginning of 1992 we have committed over £60 million including our share of EC food aid, to help the victims of the drought in southern Africa. We are supporting activities in the region to assist recovery of agriculture. These include agricultural research, including local irrigation, livestock, veterinary and pest control schemes in Zimbabwe, seeds and tools
  89
  programmes in Mozambique and Malawi, and a seed multiplication project in Namibia. We are also funding a project in Zambia which, through checking and treatment of imported maize consignments, should help reduce the risk of infestation to future local crops by pests such as the larger grain borer. We shall continue to help, in concert with our partners in the donor community.

  Mr. O'Hara
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what support Her Majesty's Government are giving to the United Nations/Southern Africa Development Co-ordination conference appeal for US$854 million; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  Her Majesty's Government have so far committed more than £51 million of bilateral aid in response to the drought in southern Africa. This is in addition to an estimated £11.3 million of food aid given by Britain through the EC special food aid programme. The Government will continue to monitor the situation closely in consultation with our EC partners and other donors.

  Mr. O'Hara
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what plans Her Majesty's Government have to enlarge the social funds to aid the poorest in the drought-affected areas of southern Africa to cope with economic change, and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  We have already committed over £51 million of bilateral aid to help drought victims in southern Africa in the form of balance of payments aid, food and support for non-governmental organisation programmes. More widely we are working closely with the IMF and World bank and both institutions are being flexible in modifying economic reform programme targets to help protect the populations of countries from the worst effects of the drought. Substantial extra multilateral resources have been made available to help cope with present difficulties.

  Overseas Aid
  Mr. Worthington
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what was the value of the British overseas aid programme in deutschmarks on 15 September; and what is its current value in deutschmarks

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  The planned aid programme to developing countries for 1992–93 is £1,831 million. At the exchange rate of Dm 2.78/£ on 15 September this was equivalent to Dm 5,090 million, and at an exchange rate of Dm 2.50/£, Dm 4,578 million. Fluctuation in the Deutschmark/sterling exchange rate does not itself materially affect the real value of the aid programme.

  Rain Forests
  Mrs. Dunwoody
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what proposals he has to increase awareness of how individuals and communities can assist in the preservation of rain forests.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  The individuals and communities best able to help preserve the rain forests are those living in and around the forests themselves. It is an important aim of many ODA-funded projects to encourage and enable these communities, along with their Governments, to participate in and benefit from the conservation and sustainable management of their forests.

  Somalia
  Mr. Worthington
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what initiatives Britain has initiated at the United Nations or the EC to find a long-term solution to Somalia's problems.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  We have agreed within the EC and proposed to the United Nations, that the UN should develop a strategy for the rehabilitation, both physical and political, of Somalia. We would give this our strong support and have urged partners and other donors to follow the UN lead.

  Poland
  Ms. Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will give full details of all assistance given to Poland under the know-how fund, including cost.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  The know-how fund for Poland is working well. Over 170 projects have been supported. The actual and anticipated expenditure to the end of this financial year should be over £34 million.

  A list of the activities approved since the beginning of the know-how fund has been placed in the Libraries of both Houses.

  South Africa
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he has yet received a full report from the South African Government in respect of the two South African defence force agents arrested in the United Kingdom in April; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  We received an interim report from the South African authorities in June. Investigations are continuing. One of the two South African officers has been dismissed from service. Other disciplinary action may be taken when enquiries in South Africa are complete. The South African Government have undertaken to provide full details of any links between South Africans and loyalist extremists in Northern Ireland.

  Russia
  Mr. Barry Porter
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what has been the total commitment to date to Russia in pounds sterling, against the know-how fund programme; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  The know-how fund has so far committed a total of £15 million for projects to Russia. The figure comprises £6 million spent in financial year 1991–92 and £9 million to date in 1992–93.

  Developing Countries (Debt Relief)
  Mrs. Clwyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if debt relief and rescheduling agreed for developing countries under the Trinidad terms is accounted for as positive aid receipts by the Overseas Development Administration; and by what criteria the Overseas Development Administration judges that debt relief equates to official development assistance.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  Debt relief under Trinidad terms is counted as a positive flow of official development
  91
  assistance in accordance with directives agreed by the OECD's Development Assistance Committee (DAC). Trinidad terms directly benefit developing countries by significantly reducing their foreign exchange obligations. Eight countries have already benefited and we expect more to do so over the coming months.

AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD

  Male Cattle
  Mr. John D. Taylor
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many additional staff will be employed to register male cattle as required by the common agricultural policy; and what is the estimated annual cost of this registration.

  Mr. Curry
  The European Commission has not yet proposed rules for the implementation of the beef special premium scheme after 1 January 1993, and it is therefore not yet clear whether a system of registration and passports will be required for eligible animals. It is not yet possible to estimate the staff numbers or cost of such a system.

  Plant Health and Pesticides HQ
  Mr. Bayley
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when he intends to announce his decision on which site in York will be used for the new MAFF plant health and pesticides headquarters.

  Mr. Curry
  There is nothing to add to the reply given on this matter on 8 June 1992,Official Report, column 13.

  Tobacco
  Mrs. Roe
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in which areas of the EC tobacco is the only crop that can be cultivated.

  Mr. Curry
  In parts of southern Europe, and especially in Greece, infertile soils, dry climatic conditions, remoteness and poor transport links mean that no alternative crops can match tobacco's capacity to provide growers with a return.

  Mrs. Roe
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what was the total level of support, in sterling equivalent, for growing tobacco in the EC under the common agricultural policy in the latest year for which figures are available; and what measures are in hand to reduce this sum.

  Mr. Curry
  In 1991, the EC spent around £930 million (1,330 mecu) on the CAP tobacco regime. The substantial reforms agreed by the Council in the recent CAP reform package should progressively reduce annual EC expenditure on tobacco. The Commission estimates that, by 1997, this reduction should amount to over a quarter of current expenditure. A further review is to take place, effective from the 1998 harvest.

  Common Agricultural Policy
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is the current sum paid per British family to support the common agricultural policy.
  92
  Mr. Curry
  Estimates of the current cost of the CAP to United Kingdom households are extremely difficult and depend critically on the assumptions used. For instance, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) has estimated that the transfers from consumers and taxpayers resulting from agricultural policies in the European Community—separate figures for the United Kingdom are not available—were equivalent to some £18 per week for a family of four in 1991. However, as the OECD makes clear, this estimate does not take into account the impact on world prices, and on other variables, if farm support were to be removed. It is likely, therefore, to overstate to a significant degree the true cost to United Kingdom consumers and taxpayers.

  Mr. Tyler
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will attach environmental conditions to the area payments that compensate farmers for the cuts in arable support under the CAP reforms.

  Mr. Curry
  We believe that direct payments to farmers under the CAP should be subject to appropriate environmental conditions. All farmers claiming area payments on over 15 hectares in England will have to set land aside. The land set aside will be subject to management conditions intended to help protect the environment.

  The Community legislation establishing the new arable regime does not provide a legal basis under which such conditions could be applied to other arable land.

  Mr. Tyler
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what environmental conditions he intends to apply to land set aside under the CAP reforms; and if those conditions apply to all arable land in the rotation.

  Mr. Curry
  Rules for the management of set-aside land are set out in the explanatory booklet on the arable area payments scheme, copies of which have been placed in the Library of the House. These include measures specifically intended to help protect the environment.

  The Community legislation establishing the new arable regime does not provide a legal basis under which these conditions could be applied to other arable land.

  Mr. Tyler
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what increase in expenditure implementation of the multi-annual zonal schemes in the agri-environment package of the CAP's accompanying measures will require over and above existing expenditure plans on support for agriculture in special areas, capital grants and alternative land uses as published in the Government's expenditure plans 1992–93 to 1994–95.

  Mr. Curry
  No decisions on implementation of the agri-environment regulation have yet been taken. We have until July 1993 to draw up our implementation plans and will consult widely in doing so.

  Mr. Worthington
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is the cost of the CAP to the United Kingdom in 1992–93.

  Mr. Curry
  Details of public expenditure in the United Kingdom under the Common Agricultural Policy in 1992–93 will be contained in "Agriculture in the UK—1992", which is currently being compiled and is expected to be published in March 1993. Copies will be made available to the House.
  93
  The forecast expenditure in the United Kingdom in 1991–92 (the last year for which figures are readily available) is contained in section 9 of "Agriculture in the UK—1991". Actual outturn information for 1991–92 is presently being gathered and will be published in "Agriculture in the UK—1992". In addition, however, the United Kingdom supports CAP spending elsewhere in the Community through our net contribution to the EC budget. This is not allocated to particular elements of the budget, such as agriculture.

  Flags of Convenience
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many Dutch fishing vessels sailing under flags of convenience have(a) area 7 beam trawl pressure stock licences and (b) area 4 beam trawl licences.

  Mr. Curry
  As at 9 October, 14 Dutch-owned or largely Dutch-owned United Kingdom-registered fishing vessels hold area VII beam trawl pressure stock licences. Ten of these also hold area IV beam trawl licences and a further five have area IV beam trawl licences only.

  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many flag of convenience fishery vessels operating from United Kingdom ports have not complied fully with the conditions attached to their licences; and what action has been taken against them.

  Mr. Curry
  Sixteen non-British-owned or largely non-British-owned United Kingdom-registered fishing vessels contravened the conditions of their fishing licence in 1991 and in 1992 to the end of August. In one case there has been a successful prosecution and in two other cases an official warning has been given. One case has been dropped and 12 cases are still pending, while prosecution is considered.

  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many fishing vessels registered under flags of convenience are licensed by the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.

  Mr. Curry
  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport is providing the hon. Member with a list of the 81 fishing vessels which qualified for registration either pursuant to the interim relief granted by the House of Lords or as a direct result of the Factortame judgment. As at 9 October 1992 all of these held United Kingdom fishing licences.

  Starlings, Doncaster
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what were the results of the inquiry carried out by his Department into the large number of starlings that have died on a Doncaster housing estate; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Soames
  The incident was reported by local residents on 1 July. It was investigated the same day by an official of the Department together with an environmental health officer from Doncaster metropolitan borough. More than 300 young starlings were found dead. Following enquiries and discussions with other experts, including the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, it 94
  was concluded that the immature birds probably died as a result of hypothermia caused by the strong cold winds and heavy rain on the previous night and during the morning.

  Organic Farmers
  Mr. Livingstone
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what recent assessment he has made of the extent of unmet consumer demand for organic farm produce; for what reasons organic farmers were included in the latest EC set-aside scheme; and if he will take steps to remove organic farmers from EC set-aside arrangements.

  Mr. Curry
  Demand is difficult to estimate in such a small market but it is clear that there is potential for growth in the organic sector as shown by the high level of imports. We are keen that United Kingdom farmers and growers should meet that demand.

  Under the EC rules, the new arable area payments scheme must be open to all growers who meet the relevant scheme conditions, including the set-aside requirements. It is not possible to remove organic growers from these arrangements.

  Eggs
  Mrs. Gorman
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will now pay the balance of sums due to the Sisters of the Monastery of Our Lady of the Passion; if he will increase the compensation paid to all egg producers after compulsory slaughter of their flocks under the Zoonoses Order 1989; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Soames
  All moneys due to the Sisters of the Monastery of Our Lady of the Passion have now been paid. The final payment, as directed by the arbitrator, was made on 20 July 1992.

  Compensation is paid in accordance with the Animal Health Act 1981 for all flocks which are required to be compulsorily slaughtered. Compensation is paid on the value of the birds immediately before slaughter. The Act requires compensation to be paid on poultry other than diseased poultry, and compensation is paid on the total number of birds in the flock less the estimated number of diseased birds. The value of each bird is calculated in accordance with a regularly reviewed scale of values which take into account the age of the birds at the time of slaughter. It is open to any flock owner who disputes the valuation of his flock to take the matter to independent arbitration.

  Whaling
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many hon. Members wrote to him regarding whaling during the last six months; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Curry
  Over the last six months, this Department has received and replied to some 5,000 letters. Of these, over 1,000 were from hon. Members on behalf of themselves or their constituents. Very many letters have welcomed the stand we are taking in the International Whaling Commission to help conserve and protect the world's stocks of whales and small cetaceans.

  Ms. Walley
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will set out the steps he intends to
  95
  take during his European presidency to press to end all commercial whaling, and protect whales; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Curry
  Trade in whale products by member states is already prohibited by the Community through regulations implementing the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES). Additionally, Council directive 92/43/EEC, adopted in May 1992, requires member states to take action to protect all species of whales by mid 1994. All forms of whaling within United Kingdom fishery limits are already banned and as far as we are aware, no whaling currently takes place within the fishery limits of other member states. Moreover, Denmark, France, Germany, Ireland, the Netherlands and Spain, like the United Kingdom, are members of the International Whaling Commission and, as such, are bound by its moratorium on commercial whaling.

  Deregulation
  Mr. Sproat
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what financial provisions, and how much, he has made within his Department in order to look at the potential for deregulation of each of the regulatory measures for which he has responsibility.

  Mr. Curry
  Deregulation considerations form an integral part of this Department's normal working practice in respect of both EC and domestic legislation.

  It is not possible, therefore, to assess separately what financial resources are utilised specifically for deregulatory purposes.

  Agricultural Training Board
  Mr. Conway
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food following his Department's inspection of the Agricultural Training Board training services in 1988, what action has been taken to empower the director of ATB to adjust staff grades up to higher executive officer level within overall financial allocations.

  Mr. Curry
  The rules under which the director (now chief executive) of the Agricultural Training Board (ATB) currently operates are set out in the ATB financial memorandum which was signed on 10 May 1989. This gives the director the authority to create posts up to higher executive officer level without the prior consent of the Department. However the terms, allowances and conditions of service applicable must be approved by the Department.

  Oak Dieback Disease
  Mr. Dalyell
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is his current assessment of the incidence and effect of oak dieback disease.

  Mr. Curry
  Oak dieback has been identified at about 40 sites in southern England, mainly in the east midlands. The growth of affected trees first started to decline in the mid 1980s, although the dieback did not become apparent until several years later. Similar problems on oak trees in several other countries in Europe have been recorded during the last decade.

  There is no evidence that the dieback is caused by a contagious disease. Several different factors appear to be
  96
  involved, of which water stress during the severe droughts in the 1980s seems to be the most important. The Forestry Commission is monitoring the situation carefully and so far it seems that oak dieback is unlikely to affect a large number of trees. Although fresh reports of dieback are still being received, the indications are that it has stabilised at most sites. Few new trees have been affected over the last two years, while trees affected in previous years have generally not deteriorated any further.

  Further information is given in the Forestry Commission's Research information note 214, copies of which are in the Library.

  Butterflies
  Mr. Dalyell
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what are his conclusions from investigation by Government scientists for the Agricultural Development Advisory Service into the death of tropical butterflies at Fraddam in 1992, and the related matters of imported chrysalids and wind-borne farm pesticides.

  Mr. Soames
  The findings of a field investigation which was carried out on 9 June were inconclusive. No relationship was established between the deaths of the butterflies at Fraddam and the use of pesticides.

  Mink
  Mr. Harvey
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food pursuant to his answer to the hon. Member for Hampstead and Highgate (Ms. Jackson) of 29 June,Official Report, column 401, if he will make a statement on the outcome of his consultations on the Mink (Keeping) Order 1987; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Soames
  I am considering the responses received to the consultation exercise, and I will make a decision in due course.

LORD CHANCELLOR'S DEPARTMENT

  County Courts
  Mr. Mackinlay
  To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department what study he has made of the extent of the backlog of cases in the county courts in Greater London and the south east; and what action he proposes to take to improve the situation.

  Mr. John M. Taylor
  My Department monitors closely the throughput of cases in the county courts by a system of performance indicators. The situation varies from court to court but average performance figures against targets are published in the Lord Chancellor's court service annual report.

  Staffing levels have been increased in the London county courts by almost 5 per cent. in the past 12 months and 11 additional district judges have been appointed.

  Legal Aid
  Mr. John Marshall
  To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department what recent representations he has received about the cost of legal aid.

  Mr. John M. Taylor
  The Lord Chancellor and I receive a good deal of correspondence about a number of aspects of the legal aid scheme, of which cost is one.
  97
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department what percentage of people who were successful in obtaining legal aid certificates for civil cases during the year ended March 1992 had to pay an amount towards the cost involved; and what was the average cost per person.

  Mr. John M. Taylor
  For the year ended March 1992 16.1 per cent. of people granted legal aid certificates in civil cases were assessed as having to pay a contribution towards the cost. The average contribution received from each assisted person was just under £340.

  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department if he will give the number of people who were(a) granted and (b) refused legal aid in civil cases for the year ended March 1992.

  Mr. John M. Taylor
  For the year ended March 1992, 339,306 people were granted, and 100,030 were refused, legal aid certificates in civil cases.

  Bankruptcy
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department how many(a) company bankruptcy debtor petitions and (b) personal bankruptcy debtor petitions were made in each of the last 12 quarters on the Wales and Chester court circuit.

  Mr. John M. Taylor
  The table shows the number of company winding up petitions and the number of bankruptcy petitions issued by both creditors and debtors in county courts on the Wales and Chester circuit for each of the past 12 quarters—the figures for 1992 are provisional. The company winding up figures include petitions issued in the High Court sitting at Cardiff. The number of petitions issued will not necessarily result in the same number of companies being wound up or individuals being made bankrupt.

  Company winding up,creditors and debtors petitions issused during the past 12 quarters in the Wales and Chester circuit

  Company winding up petitions

  Creditors petitions

  Debtors petitions

  1989 Q3

  24

  141

  31

  Q4

  24

  150

  33

  1990 Ql

  36

  176

  56

  Q2

  32

  162

  48

  Q3

  41

  211

  64

  Q4

  42

  198

  96

  1991 Q1

  46

  287

  167

  Q2

  52

  272

  112

  Q3

  59

  282

  163

  Q4

  108

  403

  204

  1992 Q1

  112

  427

  266

  Q2

  105

  390

  244

  Doncaster Magistrates Court
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department what is the establishment figure of justices of the peace for Doncaster magistrates court; and how many are currently in place.

  Mr. John M. Taylor
  The establishment figure of justices of the peace for Doncaster magistrates court is 200, and the number of justices on the active list is 190.

PRIME MINISTER

  Pitchford Hall
  Mr. Dalyell
  To ask the Prime Minister (1) what representations he has had on Her Majesty's Government's response to requests to take into public ownership Pitchford Hall and its contents in Shropshire;

  (2) what discussions Her Majesty's Government have had with (a)Lord Rothschild of the National Heritage Memorial Fund, (b)Hugh Stirling of the National Trust and (c)Jocelyn Stevens of English Heritage on the future of the contents of Pitchford Hall in Shropshire.

  The Prime Minister
  I have written to the hon. Member and have placed a copy of the letter in the Library.

  Racial Harmony
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Prime Minister (1) if he will use the United Kingdom presidency to promote a European Community directive on racial harmony;

  (2) what steps he has taken under his presidency of the European Community to promote racial harmony in the Community.

  The Prime Minister
  The Government are opposed absolutely to discrimination on grounds of race. This position is reflected in all our discussions with our European partners on these matters.

  The detailed legislative arrangements in other member states are, however, a matter for them, taking account of their particular circumstances.

  During the United Kingdom presidency the Government will be taking any appropriate opportunity to encourage our European Community colleagues to consider best practice in combating racial discrimination. One such opportunity will be the equal opportunities conference to be hosted by the Department of Employment in Birmingham from 7 to 8 December.

  Classless Society
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Prime Minister what proposals he has brought forward in his presidency of the EC to realise a classless society.

  The Prime Minister
  The Government's policies are aimed, and will continue to be aimed, at widening opportunities for all members of society. The education, health and other public service reforms, including the citizens charter, will take this process forward during our presidency of the EC and beyond. A European conference on public services and the citizen will be held in London in December as part of the United Kingdom presidency.

  Olympic Games
  Mr. Alfred Morris
  To ask the Prime Minister if he will make a statement detailing the Government's financial commitment to Manchester's Olympic 2000 bid and the timing of its implementation.

  The Prime Minister
  On 26 February I announced a £55 million support package for Manchester's Olympic 2000 bid. Of this, £53 million is towards the provision of facilities in advance of the nomination and £2 million is to support the bid itself. The International Olympic
  99
  Committee will decide the host city in September 1993. If Manchester's bid is successful, the Government will contribute to the provision of necessary facilities for the games.

NORTHERN IRELAND

  Employment Statistics
  Mr. John D. Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many Protestants and Roman Catholics are employed by the Eastern area health and social services board; and what were the equivalent figures five years ago.

  Mr. Hanley
  The Fair Employment (Northern Ireland) Act 1989 required employers to monitor the religious breakdown of their work force by establishing the community background of each employee. The first date on which the breakdown of the perceived religious affiliation of the Eastern area health and social services board's work force is available is 1 January 1990 and the latest is 1 January 1992.
  100
  The figure are as follows:

  Protestant

  Roman Catholic

  Not known

  1 January 1990

  16,989

  10,733

  2,495

  1 January 1992

  16,299

  10,878

  3,237

  Criminal Damage and Injury
  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what is the legislative base for the payment of loss assessors and solicitors in Northern Ireland in respect of payments from public funds in(a) criminal damage claims and (b) criminal injury claims.

  Mr. Mates
  The reasonable costs and expenses incurred by applicants in making out and verifying their claims for criminal damage and criminal injuries compensation are payable under article 12(1) of the Criminal Damage (Compensation) (Northern Ireland) Order 1977 and article 13(1) of the Criminal Injuries (Compensation) (Northern Ireland) Order 1988.

  Further Education Colleges
  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland which colleges of further education have(a) higher education courses, (b) national diploma courses and (c) B tech courses.

  Mr. Hanley
  All 24 further education colleges offer national diploma and courses validated by the Business Technology Education Council. The following colleges also offer higher education courses:

  Belfast Institute of Further and Higher Education

  North-West Institute of Further and Higher Education

  Fermanagh College of Further Education

  Limavady College of Further Education

  Omagh College of Further Education

  Ballymena College

  Newtownabbey College of Further Education

  Magherafelt College of Further Education

  Northern Ireland Hotel & Catering College, Portrush

  Lisburn College of Further Education

  Down College of Further Education

  Newcastle College of Further Education

  Castlereagh College of Further Education

  North Down and Ards College of Further Education

  Lurgan College of Further Education

  Portadown College of Further Education

  Armagh College of Further Education

  Newry/Kilkeel College of Further Education

  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many(a) full-time and (b) part-time students there are attending each college of further education in Northern Ireland in the current academic year; and what are the figures for each of the past three years.

  Mr. Hanley
  Figures are not available for the 1990–91 or 1992–93 academic years. The table sets out the information that is available as follows:

  1988–89

  1988–89

  (a)

  (b)

  Full-time

  Part-time

  Belfast Institute of Further and Higher Education

  2,911

  10,210

  North-West Institute of Further and Higher Education

  1,368

  3,847

  Fermanagh College of Further Education

  589

  1,459

  Limavady College of Further Education

  490

  675

  Omagh College of Further Education

  563

  1,233

  Antrim College of Further Education

  229

  976

  Ballymena College

  975

  2,659

  Newtownabbey College of Further Education

  606

  2,252

  New Technical College, Ballymoney

  181

  939

  Coleraine Technical College

  574

  1,031

  Magherafelt College of Further Education

  327

  557

  Larne College of Further Education

  243

  1,335

  Northern Ireland Hotel and Catering College, Portrush

  206

  48

  Lisburn College of Further Education

  497

  1,445

  Down College of Further Education

  602

  1,687

  Newcastle College of Further Education

  225

  174

  Castlereagh College of Further Education

  332

  1,758

  North Down and Ards College of Further Education

  705

  1,742

  Lurgan College of Further Education

  555

  673

  Portadown College of Further Education

  839

  1,747

  Armagh College of Further Education

  791

  644

  102

  1988–89

  1988–89

  (a)

  (b)

  Full-time

  Part-lime

  Banbridge College of Further Education

  240

  826

  East Tyrone College of Further Education

  680

  1,716

  Newry/Kilkeel College of Further Education

  891

  1,456

  1989–90

  1989–90

  (a)

  (b)

  Full-time

  Part-time

  Belfast Institute of Further and Higher Education

  3,472

  11,029

  North-West Institute of Further and Higher Education

  1,405

  4,194

  Fermanagh College of Further Education

  610

  1,723

  Limavady College of Further Education

  576

  819

  Omagh College of Further Education

  611

  1,122

  Antrim College of Further Education

  214

  964

  Ballymena College

  960

  2,685

  Newtownabbey College of Further Education

  645

  2,457

  New Technical College, Ballymoney

  169

  1,007

  Coleraine Technical College

  631

  1,169

  Magherafelt College of Further Education

  257

  561

  Larne College of Further Education

  257

  1,252

  Northern Ireland Hotel and Catering College, Portrush

  181

  25

  Lisburn College of Further Education

  664

  1,481

  Down College of Further Education

  721

  546

  Newcastle College of Further Education

  232

  132

  Castlereagh College of Further Education

  341

  1,920

  North Down and Ards College of Further Education

  610

  1,874

  Lurgan College of Further Education

  516

  587

  Portadown College of Further Education

  1,026

  1,588

  Armagh College of Further Education

  904

  691

  Banbridge College of Further Education

  297

  875

  East Tyrone College of Further Education

  750

  1,513

  Newry/Kilkeel College of Further Education

  1,013

  1,408

  1991–92

  1991–92

  (a)

  (b)

  Full-time

  Part-time

  Belfast Institute of Further and Higher Education

  3,959

  17,509

  North-West Institute of Further and Higher Education

  2,063

  3,846

  Fermanagh College of Further Education

  811

  1,971

  Limavady College of Further Education

  556

  880

  Omagh College of Further Education

  923

  1,208

  Antrim College of Further Education

  379

  1,522

  Ballymena College

  1,131

  2,592

  Newtownabbey College of Further Education

  786

  2,780

  New Technical College, Ballymoney

  308

  1,075

  Coleraine Technical College

  671

  1,193

  Magherafelt College of Further Education

  514

  797

  Larne College of Further Education

  303

  898

  Northern Ireland Hotel and Catering College, Portrush

  223

  69

  103

  1991–92

  1991–92

  (a)

  (b)

  Full-time

  Part-time

  Lisburn College of Further Education

  757

  2,473

  Down College of Further Education

  880

  2,081

  Newcastle College of Further Education

  368

  742

  Castlereagh College of Further Education

  693

  2,429

  North Down and Ards College of Further Education

  1,218

  4,654

  Lurgan College of Further Education

  528

  1,033

  Portadown College of Further Education

  876

  2,120

  Armagh College of Further Education

  1,002

  1,048

  Banbridge College of Further Education

  337

  1,159

  East Tyrone College of Further Education

  867

  1,558

  Newry/Kilkeel College of Further Education

  1,284

  2,947

  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what sums he has provided in the current financial year, and what are his projections for each of the next three financial years, for extensions or rebuilding work at each of the colleges of further education in Northern Ireland.

  Mr. Hanley
  For major works in 1992–93, £350,000 was allocated for Fermanagh college and £2,157,000 for North Down and Ards college. The projected expenditure on North Down and Ards college for the next three years is as follows:

  Year

  Amount

  £

  1993–94

  4,058,000

  1994–95

  2,425,000

  1995–96

  1,045,000

  Decisions have yet to be taken on new projects starting beyond 1992–93.

  In addition the education and library boards are planning to spend some £394,000 of their minor works budgets in 1992–93 on adaptations and maintenance in colleges.

  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what is the number of full-time equivalent students at each college of further education in Northern Ireland; and what was the number of students for which the college was intended to cater.

  Mr. Hanley
  The initial capacity of many colleges is not known. In any case, adaptations of premises over the years to meet changing curricular needs have modified original intentions. However, the information that is available is as follows:

  1990–91

  College

  Number of full-time equivalent students

  Belfast Institute of Further and Higher Education

  8,604

  North-West Institute of Further and Higher Education

  3,105

  Fermanagh College of Further Education

  1,063

  Limavady College of Further Education

  831

  104

  College

  Number of full-time equivalent students

  Omagh College of Further Education

  979

  Antrim College of Further Education

  611

  Ballymena College

  1,625

  Newtownabbey College of Further Education

  1,673

  New Technical College, Ballymoney

  517

  Coleraine Technical College

  959

  Magherafelt College of Further Education

  670

  Larne College of Further Education

  552

  Northern Ireland Hotel and Catering College

  203

  Lisburn College of Further Education

  1,378

  Down College of Further Education

  1,114

  Newcastle College of Further Education

  658

  Castlereagh College of Further Education

  1,298

  North Down and Ards College of Further Education

  2,001

  Lurgan College of Further Education

  798

  Portadown College of Further Education

  1,505

  Armagh College of Further Education

  1,171

  Banbridge College of Further Education

  571

  East Tyrone College of Further Education

  1,087

  Newry-Kilkeel College of Further Education

  1,605

  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what is the funding for full-time equivalent students at colleges of further education in each education and library board area in Northern Ireland.

  Mr. Hanley
  The latest year in respect of which audited accounts are available is 1990–91. The funding per full-time equivalent student in that year was:

  Education and Library Board—Funding per full-time equivalent student

  £

  Belfast

  2,427.25

  Western

  2,177.57

  North-Eastern

  2,525.80

  South Eastern

  2,363.56

  Southern

  2,282.56

  Figures include the cost of students on the youth training programme based in the colleges.

  Special Care Costs
  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what sums were spent per child in each of the last three years on special care in(a) primary schools and (b) secondary schools.

  Mr. Hanley
  Information in the form requested is not readily available and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Electricity Arrears
  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what were the total sums of arrears due to Northern Ireland Electricity; how much of this is for domestic property; and how much the corresponding figures were for one and three years ago.

  Mr. Atkins
  The arrears due to Northern Ireland Electricity at 30 June 1992 totalled £5.022 million. The corresponding figures for 1989 and 1991 were £6.064 million and £5.33 million, respectively. The proportion relating to domestic property generally remains constant at approximately 98 per cent. of the total arrears.

  EC Students
  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many students from(a) the Irish Republic, (b) Great Britain, (c) other EC countries and (d) elsewhere were at each college of further education in Northern Ireland in the current academic year and in each

  1988–89

  Republic of Ireland

  Great Britain

  Other EC

  Elsewhere

  Belfast Institute of Further and Higher Education

  30

  10

  6

  51

  North-West Institute of Further and Higher Education

  323

  0

  0

  6

  Fermanagh College of Further Education

  78

  0

  0

  4

  Limavady College of Further Education

  2

  2

  0

  18

  Omagh College of Further Education

  1

  0

  0

  0

  Antrim College of Further Education

  0

  4

  3

  2

  Ballymena College

  0

  1

  2

  12

  Newtownabbey College of Further Education

  1

  0

  0

  6

  New Technical College, Ballymoney

  0

  1

  2

  2

  Coleraine Technical College

  1

  10

  0

  33

  Magherafelt College of Further Education

  2

  0

  0

  1

  Larne College of Further Education

  0

  0

  0

  2

  Northern Ireland Hotel and Catering College, Portrush

  4

  0

  0

  0

  Lisburn College of Further Education

  0

  7

  1

  8

  Down College of Further Education

  3

  18

  0

  7

  Newcastle College of Further Education

  6

  0

  0

  25

  Castlereagh College of Further Education

  1

  2

  1

  20

  North Down and Ards College of Further Education

  5

  0

  0

  7

  Lurgan College of Further Education

  0

  0

  1

  5

  Portadown College of Further Education

  3

  0

  0

  8

  Armagh College of Further Education

  3

  0

  0

  4

  Banbridge College of Further Education

  1

  0

  0

  1

  East Tyrone College of Further Education

  1

  0

  0

  2

  Newry/Kilkeel College of Further Education

  79

  0

  2

  3

  Note: Figures include full-time and part-time students,

  1989–90

  Republic of Ireland

  Great Britain

  Other EC

  Elsewhere

  Belfast Institute of Further and Higher Education

  45

  8

  18

  79

  North-West Institute of Further and Higher Education

  391

  2

  2

  4

  Fermanagh College of Further Education

  85

  0

  1

  5

  Limavady College of Further Education

  1

  9

  0

  16

  Omagh College of Further Education

  8

  0

  0

  2

  Antrim College of Further Education

  1

  5

  0

  3

  Ballymena College

  0

  1

  0

  12

  Newtownabbey College of Further Education

  0

  0

  2

  11

  New Technical College, Ballymoney

  0

  0

  0

  2

  Coleraine Technical College

  20

  5

  0

  19

  Magherafelt College of Further Education

  1

  0

  0

  1

  Lame College of Further Education

  0

  0

  0

  2

  Northern Ireland Hotel and Catering College, Portrush

  7

  1

  0

  0

  Lisburn College of Further Education

  3

  5

  1

  9

  Down College of Further Education

  0

  1

  0

  18

  Newcastle College of Further Education

  1

  1

  0

  36

  Castlereagh College of Further Education

  6

  0

  0

  18

  North Down and Ards College of Further Education

  1

  1

  6

  17

  Lurgan College of Further Education

  2

  0

  0

  2

  Portadown College of Further Education

  1

  1

  1

  1

  Armagh College of Further Education

  4

  0

  0

  1

  Banbridge College of Further Education

  1

  0

  0

  5

  East Tyrone College of Further Education

  5

  1

  0

  12

  Newry/Kilkeel College of Further Education

  97

  0

  2

  12

  Note: Figures include full-time and part-time students.

  1991–92

  Republic of Ireland

  Great Britain

  Other EC

  Elsewhere

  Belfast Institute of Further and Higher Education

  37

  2

  0

  2

  North-West Institute of Further and Higher Education

  734

  4

  1

  4

  Fermanagh College of Further Education

  175

  0

  0

  0

  Limavady College of Further Education

  0

  0

  0

  5

  106
  of the last three years; and what is his estimate of the cost to United Kingdom funds of the studenss from other EC nations in each of those four years.

  Mr. Hanley
  Although it is not possible to calculate costs, the table sets out the information regarding student numbers over the past three years as follows. Figures are not available for the 1992–93 academic year.
  107

  1991–92

  Republic of Ireland

  Great Britain

  Other EC

  Elsewhere

  Omagh College of Further Education

  13

  0

  0

  0

  Antrim College of Further Education

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Ballymena College

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Newtownabbey College of Further Education

  1

  0

  1

  20

  New Technical College, Ballymoney

  5

  0

  0

  0

  Coleraine Technical College

  4

  0

  0

  0

  Magherafelt College of Further Education

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Larne College of Further Education

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Northern Ireland Hotel and Catering College, Portrush

  6

  0

  0

  0

  Lisburn College of Further Education

  0

  0

  0

  0

  Down College of Further Education

  1

  0

  5

  3

  Newcastle College of Further Education

  0

  0

  0

  32

  Castlereagh College of Further Education

  2

  1

  0

  0

  North Down and Ards College of Further Education

  56

  0

  0

  1

  Lurgan College of Further Education

  17

  0

  0

  0

  Portadown College of Further Education

  3

  0

  0

  0

  Armagh College of Further Education

  23

  0

  0

  1

  Banbridge College of Further Education

  0

  0

  0

  0

  East Tyrone College of Further Education

  3

  0

  0

  0

  Newry/Kilkeel College of Further Education

  231

  0

  0

  0

  Note: Figures include full-time and Part-time students.

  General Election
  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what was the(a) average, (b) shortest and (c) longest period of time taken to carry out the count for constituencies in Northern Ireland at the general election in 1992.

  Mr. Hanley
  The information requested is as follows:

  (a) average time

  :

  5 hours 40 minutes

  (b) shortest time

  :

  4 hours

  (c) longest time

  :

  7 hours 45 minutes

  Remedial Teaching
  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what sums have been spent per child in each of the last three years in(a)secondary schools and (b)primary schools for remedial teaching.

  Mr. Hanley
  Information in the form requested is not readily available and could only be compiled at disproportionate cost.

  Access Funds
  Rev. Ian Paisley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what is the amount of access funds allocated to each education and library board of each college of further education in Northern Ireland for(a)1990–91 and(b)1991–92; and what are the amounts paid out to date.

  Mr. Hanley
  Access funds were introduced at the start of the academic year 1990–91, with the sums allocated to each education and library board and the amounts disbursed by each board to students in colleges of further education being as follows:

  Amount allocated to board

  1990–91

  1991–92

  £000

  £000

  Belfast Education and Library Board

  29

  85

  Southern Education and Library Board

  29

  59

  North-Eastern Education and Library Board

  29

  35

  Western Education and Library Board

  28

  59

  South-Eastern Education and Library Board

  29

  55

  108

  Amount disbursed to colleges of further education by board

  1990–91

  1991–92

  £

  £

  Belfast Education and Library Board

  College of Business Studies1

  10,287

  85,000

  College of Technology1

  5,226

  Rupert Stanley1

  940

  Total

  16,453

  Southern Education and Library Board

  Armagh

  5,521

  10,936

  Banbridge

  822

  2,737

  East Tyrone

  6,435

  11,555

  Lurgan

  1,860

  4,106

  Newry

  10,038

  19,589

  Portadown

  561

  5,968

  Total

  25,237

  54,891

  North-Eastern Education and Library Board

  Antrim

  —

  2,150

  Ballymena

  1,816

  8,285

  Ballymoney

  —

  2,962

  Coleraine

  1,340

  3,289

  Larne

  600

  2,376

  Magherafelt

  700

  941

  Newtownabbey

  2,227

  12,907

  Northern Ireland Hotel and Catering College, Portrush

  1,430

  1,512

  Total

  8,113

  34,422

  Western Education and Library Board

  North West Institute of Further and Higher Education, Londonderry

  12,632

  22,592

  Omagh

  4,816

  14,073

  Limavady

  1,656

  4,151

  Fermanagh

  1,569

  19,252

  Total

  20,673

  60,068

  South-Eastern Education and Library Board

  North Down and Ards

  3,260

  10,604

  Castlereagh

  6,002

  12,544

  Downpatrick

  5,581

  7,995

  Lisburn

  1,858

  8,553

  Newcastle

  6,615

  7,354

  Total

  23,316

  47,050

  109
  1 From 1991–92, Belfast Institute and Higher Education.

  Rev. Ian Paisley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what plans he has to increase the amount of access funds available to students in Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Hanley
  The Department of Education for Northern Ireland, in making annual allocations for access funds available to students in Northern Ireland, follows the principle of parity with Great Britain. The amounts available for this purpose have been increased by 1.56 per cent. in 1992–93.

  Rev. Ian Paisley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what is the amount of access funds allocated to teacher education colleges and universities in Northern Ireland for(a) 1990–91 and (b) 1991–92; and if he will give the amounts paid out to date.

  Mr. Hanley
  The information requested is as follows:

  £ thousands

  1990–911

  1991–921

  allocated

  disbursed

  allocated

  disbursed

  Stranmillis college of education

  15

  4

  22.7

  12.2

  St. Mary's college of education

  14

  14

  22.0

  22.0

  Queen's university Belfast

  169

  169

  169.6

  169.6

  University of Ulster

  150

  150

  150.8

  150.8

  1 Figures for universities relate to their financial year, August to July, whilst figures for colleges of education relate to the Government financial year, April to March.

  Under-fives
  Mr. McGrady
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when the report on the interdepartmental review of policy and services for under-fives will be completed and ready for publication.

  Mr. Hanley
  The outcome of the under-fives review is expected to be announced later this year.

  Quarrying
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on his Department's policy towards the creation of coastal super-quarries.

  Mr. Atkins
  It is unlikely that the Northern Ireland coastline has the geological and marine conditions necessary for a coastal super-quarry.

  However, should such a proposal come forward, an environmental impact assessment would be required as an integral part of the relevant planning application, which would be determined on its merits, if necessary after a public inquiry.

  Milk Marketing Board
  Mr. John D. Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether the present proposals for reforms by the Northern Ireland milk marketing board were discussed with the European Commission; and if those proposals have the approval of the European Commission.
  110
  Mr. Hanley
  The proposals for reforms from the Northern Ireland milk marketing board were sent, along with the proposals from the other United Kingdom milk marketing boards, to the European Commission in June. There have been no discussions with the Commission on the details of the Northern Ireland board's proposals. However in a letter to the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, the Vice-President of the Commission, the right hon. Sir Leon Brittan, has said that the competition aspects of proposals presented by the Northern Ireland board do not have a real Community dimension and that the arrangements should be dealt with by the competent United Kingdom authorities.

  Patients (Transfers)
  Rev. Ian Paisley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many patients have been transferred from Northern Ireland health board waiting lists to private health care surgeries in the Republic of Ireland; and what has been the total cost of this exercise since its commencement.

  Mr. Hanley
  The Northern health and social services board has contracted with Blackrock clinic, Dublin to provide plastic surgery for 32 patients on its waiting list. So far seven patients have been treated at a cost of £7,000. In addition one patient from the Southern health and social services board has received cardiac surgery at Blackrock clinic at a cost of £7,000.

HOUSE OF COMMONS

  Legislation
  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the Lord President of the Council what proportion of the time spent by the House in Report stages of Government Bills during the Session 1990–91 was taken up by debates on new clauses and amendments which did not conclude with a Division.

  Mr. Newton
  The total amount of time spent in Session 1990–91 on the Report stages of Government Bills was 95 hours and 47 minutes. The time taken up by debates on new clauses and amendments which did not conclude with a Division was 48 hours and 37 minutes, or 51 per cent. of the total time taken on Report stages of Government Bills.

EMPLOYMENT

  Wages Councils
  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if she will make a statement on her policy on the continuation of wages councils.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  The Government have made it clear on many occasions that the wages councils have no permanent place in the labour market.

  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many workers are covered by each of the two largest wages councils.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  It is estimated that, in March 1992, 736,000 workers were covered by the retail trades (non-food) wages council and 538,000 by the licensed non-residential establishment wages council.

  Unemployment
  Sir Teddy Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what is the current level of unemployment.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  In September 1992, the latest date for which claimant unemployment figures are available, the level of seasonally adjusted unemployment in the United Kingdom was 2,843,300.

  Mr. Keith Hill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many people were unemployed in each standard economic region, including Greater London, in June 1979, and in the latest monthly figures available, adjusted for seasonality and for discontinuities.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  The information requested can be obtained from the NOMIS database in the Library.

  Table 1

  Male claimant unemployment (not seasonally adjusted)

  April 1990

  April 1991

  April 1992

  Number

  Rate1

  Number

  Rate

  Number

  Rate

  Blaenau Gwent constituency2

  Total

  2,270

  —

  2,589

  —

  2,698

  —

  Unemployed for more than six months

  1,194

  —

  1,282

  —

  1,629

  —

  Unemployed for more than 12 months

  830

  —

  775

  —

  1,095

  —

  Wales

  Total

  63,859

  8.4

  86,694

  11.4

  99,071

  13.1

  Unemployed for more than six months

  31,170

  4.1

  39,104

  5.2

  55,276

  7.3

  Unemployed for more than 12 months

  19,746

  2.6

  21,247

  2.8

  33,633

  4.4

  England

  Total

  909,664

  6.7

  1,342,355

  9.9

  1,739,063

  12.8

  Unemployed for more than six months

  458,048

  3.3

  583,211

  4.3

  935,204

  6.9

  Unemployed for more than 12 months

  302,390

  2.2

  330,398

  2.4

  552,585

  4.1

  1 Percentage of male work force (the sum of unemployed claimants, employees in employment, self-employed, Her Majesty's forces and participants on work-related Government training programmes).

  2 Official unemployment rates are not available for parliamentary constituencies.

  Note: Claimant unemployment figures by duration are produced quarterly for the months of January, April, July and October, and are on the unadjusted basis.

  Source: Employment Department quarterly analysis of unemployed claimants.

  Table 2

  Female claimant unemployment (not seasonally adjusted)

  April 1990

  April 1991

  April 1992

  Number

  Rate1

  Number

  Rate

  Number

  Rate

  Blaenau Gwent Constituency2

  Total

  598

  —

  552

  —

  525

  —

  Unemployed for more than six months

  262

  —

  206

  —

  240

  —

  Unemployed for more than 12 months

  170

  —

  129

  —

  146

  —

  Wales

  Total

  20,698

  3.8

  23,810

  4.4

  26,590

  4.9

  Unemployed for more than six months

  8,567

  1.6

  8,810

  1.6

  11,754

  2.2

  Unemployed for more than 12 months

  4,860

  0.9

  4,379

  0.8

  5,803

  1.1

  England

  Total

  328,568

  3.2

  429,595

  4.2

  529,478

  5.2

  Unemployed for more than six months

  145,209

  1.4

  160,519

  1.6

  239,461

  2.4

  Unemployed for more than 12 months

  84,340

  0.8

  81,173

  0.8

  118,719

  1.2

  1 Percentage of female work force (the sum of unemployed claimants, employees in employment, self-employed, HM forces and participants on work-related Government training programmes)

  2 Official unemployment rates are not available for parliamentary constituencies Claimant unemployment figures by duration are produced quarterly for the months of January, April, July and October, and are on the unadjusted basis.

  Source: Employment Department

  Quarterly analysis of unemployed claimants
  112
  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many men aged 16 to 64 years were registered as unemployed on 1 May 1992, 1 May 1991 and 1 May 1990 in(a) Blaenau Gwent, (b) Wales and (c) England; how many of them had been unemployed for more than six months and for more than 12 months; how many registered unemployed claimants in (i) Blaenau Gwent, (ii) Wales and (iii) England fail to qualify for unemployment benefit; and if she will present the unemployment figures as a percentage of all economically active males and provide comparable figures for unemployment rates and benefit entitlement for females.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  The available information is contained in the tables.
  113

  Table 3 Unemployed claimants not in receipt of unemployment benefit (not seasonally adjusted)

  May 1990

  May 1991

  May 1992

  Wales

  62,000

  79,000

  91,000

  Percentage of unemployed claimants

  78 per cent

  74 per cent

  76 per cent

  England

  920,000

  1,256,000

  1,617,000

  Percentage of unemployed claimants

  79 per cent

  73 per cent

  74 per cent

  (i) Figures for the number of claimant unemployed not in receipt of unemployment benefit are produced quarterly for the months of February, May, August and November, and are on the unadjusted basis. These figures are not available by gender or for parliamentary constituency areas.

  (ii) Because of slight definitional and methodological differences the figures in the above table do not equate exactly with the figures in tables 1 and 2 relating to the total number of unemployed claimants.

  (iii) The above figures include cases where entitlement to unemployment benefit has been exhausted and cases which, on the day of the count, had not been rated for benefit.

  Source: Department of Social Security

  Quarterly analysis of unemployed claimants.

  Social Policy
  Mr. Cash
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment which provisions on social and employment legislation defined by the agreement on social policy concluded between 11 member states of the European Community at Maastricht are also covered by articles 118a and 100a of the treaty of Rome.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  Article 118a of the treaty of Rome provides for the adoption of directives establishing minimum requirements as regards workers' health and safety. Article 100a provides for the adoption of measures to assist the establishment or functioning of the internal market, but provisions"relating to the rights and interests of employed persons"

  are among those excluded from its scope.

  The United Kingdom is not a party to the separate agreement on social policy concluded between the other member states. The coverage and interpretation of that agreement's provisions are matters for the member states that signed it and, in the final analysis, for the European Court of Justice once the Maastricht treaty has entered into force.

  1986–87

  1987–88

  1988–89

  1989–90

  1990–91

  (a) Fatal injuries in construction

  Employees

  99

  103

  101

  100

  96

  Self-employed

  26

  40

  36

  54

  28

  Members of the public

  14

  15

  14

  11

  9

  All persons

  139

  158

  151

  165

  133

  (b) Major injuries1 in construction

  Employees

  2,736

  2,767

  2,907

  3,180

  2,907

  Self-employed

  443

  561

  753

  927

  931

  Members of the public

  162

  153

  132

  113

  123

  All persons

  3,341

  3,481

  3,792

  4,220

  3,961

  1As defined under regulation 3(1) of the Reporting of Injuries, Diseases and Dangerous Occurrences Regulations (RIDDOR), 1985.

  The Government and the Health and Safety Commission have recognised for some years that there needs to be a new approach to improve the management of health and safety in construction. Today, the commission is launching a major consultative document

  Youth Training
  Mr. Llwyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if she will make it her policy to increase the weekly allowance offered to non-employed 16 and 17-year-olds on youth training placements.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  There are no plans at present to increase minimum YT allowances. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment believes that the current minimum allowances are sufficient to meet the normal requirements of trainees living in the parental home. Trainees who live independently may apply for income support if they consider their income is insufficient to meet their needs. Employers benefit considerably from Government expenditure on YT and are strongly encouraged to supplement trainee incomes wherever possible.

  Accidents
  Mr. Bill Michie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if she will give for each year since 1984 details of the number of times incidents have occurred at sites covered by the Control of Industrial Major Accident Hazards Regulations 1984 which required the activation of off-site emergency plans made under those regulations.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  The Health and Safety Executive does not hold information on the number of times incidents have occurred at sites covered by the Control of Industrial Major Accident Hazards Regulations 1984 which required the activation of off-site emergency plans made under those regulations.

  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if she will list the number of(a) deaths and (b) serious injuries on construction sites for each of the past five years and the names of those who were labour only sub-contractors; and if she will make a statement.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  The available information for Great Britain is provided in the following tables—extracted from Occasional Supplement No. 3 of the September 1992 Employment Gazette Data for the latest year commencing 1 April 1991 are not yet available. Information identifying specific individuals is not released.

  on proposed new construction (design and management) regulations and an approved code of practice. These will implement the design and management aspects of the European Community's temporary or mobile construction sites directive, adopted in June this year. The timing of the

  115
  document is appropriate in view of the European Year of Safety's focus on construction as a high risk area. The regulations should help make construction sites much safer places to work in the future.

  Social Action Programme
  Mr. Bowis
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if she will list each initiative under the EC social action programme, indicating in each case(a) action and directives proposed or agreed by the Council of

  Title

  Date published Date agreed/adopted

  Implementation date

  Directive on the organisation of working time

  Published 25 July 1990

  —

  Directive on the introduction of a form to serve as proof of an employment contract or relationship

  Published 5 December 1990 Adopted 14 October 1991

  30 June 1993

  Revision of the directive of 14 February 1975 on the approximation of the laws of member states pertaining to collective redundancies

  Published 15 November 1991 Adopted 24 June 1992

  24 June 1994

  Commission opinion on an equitable wage

  Published 11 December 1991

  n/a

  Memorandum on the social integration of migrants from non-member countries

  Published 4 September 1990

  n/a

  Two directives on contracts and employment relationships other than full-time open-ended contracts

  Published 13 June 1990

  —

  Revision of part II of regulation on the clearance of vacancies and applications for employment and the related procedural decisions (SEDOC)

  Published 5 September 1991 Adopted 17 July 1992

  regulation 1 January 1993 programme ongoing

  Commission communication on the living and working conditions of Community citizens residing in frontier regions and of frontier workers in particular

  Published 4 December 1990

  n/a

  Commission communication on supplementary social security schemes (complementary retirement schemes)

  Published 18 July 1991

  n/a

  Revision of regulation of 29 June 1970 on the right of workers to remain on the territory of a member state after having been employed in that state

  Not yet published

  —

  Proposal for a regulation extending regulation 1408/71 on the application of social security schemes to employed persons, to self-employed persons and to members of their families moving within the Community and regulation 574/72 (laying down the procedure for implementing Regulation 1408/71 to all insured persons)

  Published 19 December 1991

  1 January 1993

  Directive concerning the posting of workers in the framework of the provision of services

  Published 19 June 1991

  —

  Proposal for a Community instrument concerning the introduction of a labour clause into public contracts

  Withdrawn by Commission

  n/a

  Directive on the procedures for the information, consultation and participation of workers in European-scale undertakings

  Published 5 December 1990

  —

  Council recommendation on equity sharing and financial participation by workers (PEPPER)

  Published 3 September 1991 Adopted 16 July 1992

  n/a

  Communication on the role of the social partners in collective bargaining

  Not yet published

  n/a

  Third community action programme on equal opportunities for men and women

  Published 6 November 1990

  Ongoing

  Directive on the protection of pregnant women at work

  Published 12 September 1990 Adopted 19 October 1992

  19 October 1994

  Council recommendation concerning child care

  Published 8 July 1991 Adopted 31 March 1992

  n/a

  116
  Ministers, (b)in which EC countries it has been adopted and implemented and (c)in which EC countries it has not been adopted and implemented.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  The information is provided in the table.

  Not all of the proposals in the EC social action programme are binding instruments required to be implemented by member states. Where binding instruments have been adopted, there is in every case some time still to elapse before they are required to be implemented in the domestic legislation of member states.
  117

  Title

  Date published Date agreed/adopted

  Implementation date

  Recommendation concerning a code of good conduct on the protection of pregnancy and maternity

  Withdrawn—covered by other measures

  n/a

  Communication on the rationalisation and coordination of Community action programme in the field of initial and continuing vocational training

  Published 12 September 1990

  n/a

  Council decision amending earlier decision concerning an action programme for the vocational training of young people (merger of young workers exchange programme and PETRA)

  Published 9 November 1990 Adopted 22 July 1992

  n/a

  Council decision to extend the third young workers exchange programme (merged with PETRA: see above)

  Published 9 November 1990 Adopted 22 July 1992

  n/a

  Council decision on the second phase of the youth for Europe programme

  Published 22 November 1990 Adopted 29 July 1991

  n/a

  Commission memorandum on vocational training in the EC in the 1990s (modified form of the revision of the 1963 measure initially proposed)

  Published 13 January 1992

  n/a

  Community instrument on access to vocational training

  Not yet published

  —

  Directive on protection of young people at work

  Published 15 January 1992

  —

  Council decision on an initiative on the elderly (including action programme)

  Published 30 April 1990

  ongoing

  Directive on the introduction of measures aimed at promoting an improvement in the travel conditions of workers with motor disabilities

  Published 6 February 1991

  —

  Council decision establishing a third Community action programme for disabled people for 1992–95 (HELIOS II)

  Published 2 October 1991

  n/a

  Council recommendation on sufficient resources in social protection

  Published 7 May 1991 Adopted 24 June 1992

  —

  Council recommendation on convergence of policies in the social protection field

  Published 26 June 1991 Adopted 16 July 1992

  n/a

  Recommendation to member states on the adoption of a European schedule of industrial diseases

  Published 22 May 1990 Adopted 26 June 1990

  n/a

  (a) for reporting

  (b) for compensation

  Directive on health and safety of temporary workers

  Published 13 June 1990 Adopted 25 June 1991

  31 December 1992

  Directive amending directive 83/447 on the protection of workers from the risks related to exposure to asbestos at work

  Published 30 June 1990 Adopted 25 June 1991

  1 January 1993

  Directive on the minimum health and safety requirements to encourage improved medical assistance on board vessels

  Published 25 July 1990 Adopted 31 March 1992

  31 December 1993

  Directive on the minimum health and safety requirements for work at temporary or mobile construction sites

  Published 31 July 1990 Adopted 24 June 1992

  31 December 1993

  Directive on minimum requirements for health and safety signs at the workplace

  Published 31 January 1991 Adopted 24 June 1992

  24 June 1994

  Directive on minimum requirements to be applied in improving the health and safety of workers in the drilling industries

  Published 30 January 1991 Common position 30 April 1992

  —

  Directive on minimum requirements to be applied for improving the health and safety of workers in the extractive industries for the exploration and exploitation of minerals in mines and quarries

  Published 21 February 1992 Common position 24 June 1992

  —

  Council regulation establishing a European Institute of Occupational Safety, Hygiene and Health

  Published 30 September 1991

  n/a

  Directive on the minimum health and safety requirements for fishing vessels

  Published 6 December 1991

  —

  Directive on minimum safety and health requirements regarding the exposure of workers to the risks caused by physical agents

  Not yet published

  n/a

  118 119

  Title

  Date published Date agreed/adopted

  Implementation date

  Directive on the minimum safety and health requirements of activities in the transport sector

  Not yet published

  —

  Directive defining a system of specific information for workers exposed to certain dangerous industrial agents to be replaced by:

  Withdrawn by the Commission

  —

  Directive concerning information on health and safety to be provided to workers at work

  Not yet published

  —

  Disabled People
  Ms. Quin
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment (1) what proportion of firms have complied with the quota for disabled people as laid down in the Disabled Persons (Employment) Act 1944, supplying figures for each year since 1979 and by size of firm;

  (2) what proportion of firms have been issued with block exemptions under the Disabled Persons (Employment) Act 1944, supplying figures for every year since 1979 and giving figures by size of firm.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  Questions on operational matters in the Employment Service executive agency are the responsibility of the agency's chief executive, to whom I have referred this question for reply.

  Table 1

  Percentage of firms in Great Britain with 20 or more employees and who have employed a 3 per cent, quota of registered disabled people

  per cent.

  1979

  35.3

  1980

  35.1

  1981

  33.6

  1982

  31.8

  1983

  31.4

  1984

  30.3

  1985

  28.1

  1986

  26.8

  1987

  25.3

  1988

  23.9

  1989

  22.8

  1990

  21.8

  1991

  20.4

  1992

  1—

  1 Not yet available.

  Table 2

  Percentage of employers in Great Britain with 20 or more employees, issued with bulk permits

  per cent.

  1979

  45.1

  1980

  46.5

  1981

  47.6

  1982

  46.3

  1983

  48.4

  1984

  49.9

  1985

  1—

  1986

  55.5

  1987

  56.1

  1988

  56.7

  1989

  57.1

  1990

  58.2

  120

  per cent.

  1991

  55.1

  1992

  2—

  1 Unavailable.

  2 Not yet available.

  Employment Agencies
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what proposals she has to strengthen her regulatory powers to register, monitor and supervise employment agencies; and what proposals she has to increase the supervisory powers she has over model agencies and to increase the minimum age at which young people can work as models without chaperones.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment has no proposals to strengthen her powers over model agencies or employment agencies. There are no regulations which specifically govern the minimum age at which young people can work as models without chaperones. The Children (Performances) Regulations 1968 are the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health and are enforced by local education authorities.

  Vocational Qualifications
  Mr. Barry Porter
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if she will make a statement on the progress of the National Council for Vocational Qualifications programme and its implementation.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  The National Council for Vocational Qualifications is making good progress in meeting the target set by my right hon. and learned Friend, the previous Secretary of State for Employment, that by the end of 1992 national vocational qualifications covering 80 per cent. of the work force up to NVQ level 4 are available, and in all the most important occupational areas.

  There are currently some 430 national vocational qualifications accredited by the council covering about 73 per cent. of the work force in over 40 major industries. The council is well on course to achieve the 80 per cent. target.

  The council is taking a leading role in helping to ensure that awareness and take up of national vocational qualifications is raised. The council's national communications strategy, which was launched by the Prime Minister in January 1992, is involving employer and other organisations in promoting NVQs.

  Employment (Over-50s)
  Ms. Quin
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what new proposals her Department has to promote employment among unemployed people over 50 years of age.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  We believe that it is in employers' own interests to make effective use of the skills and experience that older people possess. Our new advisory group on older workers will meet later this autumn. It will identify and encourage examples of good employment practice with regard to older workers, and seek to persuade employers to treat all applicants on their merits.

  Euroform Initiative
  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment, pursuant to his answer of 3 July to the hon. Member for Billericay (Mrs. Gorman),Official Report, column 714, which person or bodies are responsible for choosing successful applicants for the Euroform initiative; how many applicants were unsuccessful; by what means the fund was advertised; and if he will place in the Library a document showing the amount of grant made to each of the 175 projects mentioned in the answer naming the recipient organisation and the purposes to which the grant will be put.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  A Euroform programme committee has been set up, comprising of representatives from local authorities, higher education institutions, voluntary bodies, training and enterprise councils, the European Commission and Employment Department. This committee made the selection of projects to be funded under Euroform. Out of 277 bids, 102 were unsuccessful.

  Information about the Euroform initiative was made available through the existing European social fund committee structures, through Community action programme networks—FORCE and EUROTECHNET—and to all organisations which registered an interest.

  Of the 175 projects originally given approval in principle, 62 have yet to be formally approved due to delays in applicants providing the necessary financial information and/or confirmation of transitional partnerships. Once these projects are cleared, a complete list will be placed in the Library detailing the projects to be assisted.

  Redundancies
  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what calculations or assumptions are made of the consequential effects of redundancies, and reduced purchasing power, on employment in the supply of other goods or services; what studies have been made of such effects in areas of local employment offices where major redundancies in shipbuilding, coal mining, engineering or other employment concentrations have taken place; and what conclusions have been drawn from such studies.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  The effect of redundancies varies with the circumstances involved. The Department does not therefore use any standard assumptions in assessing any knock-on effects of redundancies on the localities in question or on the economy overall.

  Since 1990, the Department has commissioned two studies looking at the broader effects of large-scale
  122
  redundancies on local economies. The first entitled "Sellafield Redundancies: Labour Market Effects" examined the rundown of construction activity at British Nuclear Fuel's Sellafield site. The research, which was undertaken by the Planning, Industrial and Economic Development Advisers (PIEDA) consultancy, indicated that for every 100 jobs disappearing at the Sellafield construction site, about 20 additional jobs would disappear in the rest of the west Cumbrian economy. The second study, entitled "Research into Redundancies at VSEL, Barrow", was also undertaken by PIEDA. This study looked at the effects of the expected fall in employment at the VSEL shipyards in Barrow on the local travel-to-work area. The consultants estimated that for every 100 jobs lost at the shipyards, an additional I I jobs would disappear in the local economy. The studies did not examine the broader effects, either positive or negative, outside these localities on the United Kingdom economy overall.

  Industrial Disputes
  Mrs. Dunwoody
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many days were lost through industrial action by staff in higher education in(a)1978 and(b)1992; and how many separate incidents were involved.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  A breakdown of industrial action by staff specifically in higher education is not available for 1978. However, a total of 1,000 days were lost in six stoppages of work by staff in all educational services in 1978. This compares with a loss of 27 thousand days in 22 stoppages in 1991, the latest calendar year for which data are available.

  As a result of changes in the industrial classification system, data on higher education have been available since 1982. On this basis, a provisional total of 4,000 days have been lost in three stoppages of work by staff in higher education in the eight months to August 1992, the latest period for which statistics are available.

CHURCH COMMISSIONERS

  Land
  Mr. Steen
  To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, representing the Church Commissioners, how many acres of dormant, vacant and derelict land are currently in the Church Commissioners' ownership; and how many offices and houses are currently vacant.

  Mr. Alison
  At 30 June, excluding woods, roads and verges, et cetera, 600 acres of our land were unlet as were 15 offices—or parts of offices—and 85 houses or flats.

  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, representing the Church Commissioners, what plans the commissioners have to change the conditions under which they let church land.

  Mr. Alison
  The commissioners have no such plans in respect of their own land. Letting of other church land is a matter for the diocese or parish concerned.

WALES

  NHS Trusts
  Mr. Hanson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he expects to make an announcement following the consultation on trust status applications from health units in Clwyd.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  My right hon. Friend is still considering the representations made during public consultation and hopes to announce his decisions shortly.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what policy considerations he will utilise in relation to whole health authority national health service trust applications.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  The decision whether to seek national health service trust status is a matter for individual health units and the ambulance service. Each application for national health service trust status must demonstrate benefits to patients and quality improvement, management capability and capacity, involvement of key professional staff, especially consultants in management and financial soundness.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what consultations he has had with the chairmen and women of the Welsh health authorities, community health councils and family health service authorities regarding policy on community health services trust status applications.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  Each application for national health service trust status is subject to public consultation, which statutorily includes the relevant community health councils. In addition, health authorities and family health service authorities are among a range of consultees who are invited to comment on proposals contained in an application.

  Beaches
  Mr. Sweeney
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what measures are being taken to ensure that all Welsh beaches attain the highest standards of cleanliness.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  A major investment programme is in hand by Dwr Cymru to enable all waters in Wales identified under the EC Bathing Waters Directive to meet the directive's mandatory bacteriological standards.

  In addition, the Government have introduced provisions in the Environmental Protection Act 1990 which place local authorities and others under a duty to keep beaches clear of litter and refuse.

  Unemployment
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what new proposals he intends to introduce to curb the increase in Welsh unemployment.

  Mr. David Hunt
  The Welsh Office and agencies which already operate a range of measures to increase employment opportunities will continue to look for further opportunities which will increase employment prospects.

  Housing
  Mr. Hain
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will give the figure for the total amount in local authority housing capital receipt accounts across Wales.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  The latest information available relates to 31 March 1991, when local councils held £32.7 million of housing capital receipts and this sum may be re-used by the councils.

  At the same date, after allowing for redemption, Welsh local councils had outstanding loan debt of £976.3 million on their housing revenue accounts.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (1) what consultations he has had with the chairman of Tai Cymru concerning the impact of the proposals contained in his consultation paper on the future development of Welsh housing associations on(a) smaller housing associations, (b) housing associations specialising in infill and refurbishment and (c) small builders;

  (2) what standards of (a)building development and(b)management capabilities he proposes to set as a minimum quality threshold for Welsh housing associations; what consultations he has had with (i) Tai Cymru, (ii) the Welsh Federation of Housing Associations and (iii) the Welsh Association of District Councils concerning the relationship between the development of new-build housing association development and the management of the housing association-owned estate; and if he will make a statement;

  (3) what consultations he has had with the chairman of Tai Cymru concerning the reduction of the number of housing associations in Wales approved and grant aided for (a)building new affordable housing and (b)managing estates.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  These are matters which it is for the board of Housing for Wales to consider in the light of the consultation process currently under way.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement concerning supplementary credit approvals for local authority housing estate partnership programmes in Wales.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  Under the estate partnership programme an initial supplementary credit approval of £3 million has recently been offered to Cardiff city council and one of £ 1.5 million to Merthyr Tydfil borough council to help them fund remedial works on the Ely West and Gurnos estates respectively. Discussions with Arfon borough council continue as regards their proposals for Tai Station estate, Bangor.

  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is his policy on the modernisation of aging council housing stock in Wales.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  This is a matter for local authorities to address when deciding their priorities within the framework provided by "Housing in Wales: An Agenda for Action".

  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what percentage of Welsh households in 1991(a)lacked or shared a bath or shower,(b)had no inside WC,(c)had no central heating or(d)lived in a density of more than one per room.
  125
  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  The Office of Population Censuses and Surveys (OPCS) has to date published only a selection of 1991 census results in the county monitor series (CEN 91 CM). The Wales percentages given as follows for 1991 are provisional as they are derived directly from the rounded statistics in those monitors. National level results will be released by OPCS in November 1992 and more detailed results published in county reports later this year and in 1993. Percentages for 1981 are also given in the following table.

  Percentage of households in Wales

  Per cent.

  11991

  1981

  a. and b. which lacked exclusive use of a bath or shower and/or an inside WC

  1.7

  6.7

  c. which lacked central heating

  18.5

  (2)

  d. with more than 1 person per room

  1.6

  2.8

  1 Provisional.

  2 This question was not asked in 1981.

  Health Services, South Glamorgan
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement about the future of hospital services in Cardiff.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  Our officials are in close touch with the authority about its strategic plan and my right hon. Friend expects to be in a position to consider it in the spring of next year.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (1) what consultations he has had with the chairman of the South Glamorgan health authority concerning the recommendation to the health authority at its meeting of 16 July that(a) all accident and emergency services and (b) all paediatric hospital services should be moved to the University hospital of Wales, the Heath, Cardiff; what assessment he has made of the need to review his acceptance of the authority's 10-year strategic plan; and if he will make a statement;

  (2) what consultations he has had with the chairman of the South Glamorgan health authority concerning the withdrawal of the third district general hospital from the authority's 10-year strategy;

  (3) what consultations he has had with the vice-chair of the South Glamorgan health authority concerning the date of review of the South Glamorgan health authority 10-year strategic plan.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  The health authority was asked in 1989 to review its strategic plan. The outcome is likely to be submitted to my right hon. Friend before Christmas. Until then, the proposals in the plan are a matter for the authority; and my right hon. Friend has not consulted the chairman or vice-chairman of the authority on any aspect of this issue, though naturally officials are in close touch.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he expects to appoint a new chair of the South Glamorgan health authority; if he will advertise the post; and what proposals he has to ensure the appointing procedure achieves compliance with equal opportunities legislation and principles.

  Mr. David Hunt
  On 23 July I announced the appointment of Mr. Ian Grist as chairman of South 126
  Glamorgan district health authority for a four-year term commencing on 1 August 1992. Public appointments are not normally filled as a consequence of advertising. All public appointments are made irrespective of sex on the basis of aptitude and merit.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is his latest estimate of the date for decision on the application for waiting list initiative capital approval by South Glamorgan health authority for a third orthopaedic operating theatre at the Prince of Wales orthopaedic hospital, Rhydlafar at Cardiff.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  I announced on 6 October an allocation of £94,350 to support the development by South Glamorgan health authority of a third operating theatre at the Prince of Wales hospital.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what consultation he has had with the chairman of the South Glamorgan health authority concerning the suspension on full pay of the unit general manager of the Cardiff royal group of hospitals.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  My right hon. Friend has had no consultations with the chairman of the South Glamorgan health authority on this matter. This is an internal management issue for the authority.

  District Council Boundaries
  Dr. Howells
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when next he plans to meet the leaders of local authorities in mid Glamorgan to discuss the realignment of district council boundaries in that county.

  Mr. David Hunt
  My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State has already met delegations from each of the Mid Glamorgan district councils during the present phase of consultation.

  Family Expenditure
  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is the average expenditure of a family consisting of two parents and two children in(a) Blaenau Gwent and (b) Wales; and what is the current level of income support for such a family.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  Estimated average expenditure for all types of Welsh households for the two year period 1989 to 1990 was £212 per week. The average weekly income support of recipients in Wales who have dependants was estimated to be £66 in May 1991. More detailed breakdowns of these estimates, either by area or type of household, are not available.

  Traffic Accidents
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many children under school-leaving age had been injured in road traffic accidents in Wales(a) prior to the launch of his Department's target to reduce road casualties by one third by the year 2000 and (b) for the latest year for which figures are available.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  The information requested is as follows:
  127

  Child Road Casualties1

  Number

  1981–85 average2

  2,326

  19863

  2,181

  19914

  2,344

  1 Children under 16 years of age.

  2 Baseline for reduction target.

  3 Year preceding target launch.

  4 Provisional.

  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what was the total number of road traffic accidents in Wales in the latest year for which figures are available; and how many such accidents resulted in head injuries, according to each standard age cohort.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  In 1991, the total number of road traffic accidents in Wales was 10,824. Information relating to head injuries resulting from road accidents is not collected centrally.

  Welsh Development Agency
  Mr. Denzil Davies
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (1) what has been the total expenditure over the last three available years by the Welsh Development Agency on projects involving the redevelopment of town centres;

  (2) what was the total sum spent by the Welsh Development Agency in the latest available year on the acquisition of properties;

  (3) what has been the total expenditure so far paid by way of the Welsh Development Agency to outside consultants in respect of the agency's involvement in the southern area project in Llanelli;

  (4) what was the total expenditure of the Welsh Development Agency in the latest available year on outside consultancy services;

  (5) what has been the total expenditure so far by the Welsh Development Agency on the southern area project at Llanelli;

  (6) who are the representatives of the Welsh Development Agency on the joint committee set up by the agency and Llanelli borough council to oversee the management of the redevelopment of Llanelli town centre;

  (7) What is the estimated likely total expenditure at current prices of the southern area project at Llanelli carried out by the Welsh Development Agency;

  (8) what has been the total amount spent so far by the Welsh Development Agency on the acquisition of properties in connection with (a) the south Llanelli project and (b) the redevelopment of Llanelli town centre;

  (9) whether he will list the names of all the outside consultants who have so far been engaged jointly by the Welsh Development Agency and Llanelli borough council in connection with the redevelopment of the Llanelli town centre;

  (10) whether he will list the names of the three outside consultancies which received most remuneration by way of fees from the Welsh Development Agency in the latest available year;

  (11) what is the limited contribution of the Welsh Development Agency to the joint venture between the agency and Llanelli borough council for the redevelopment of the Llanelli town centre.

  Mr. David Hunt
  Operational issues are a matter for the Welsh Development Agency. I have therefore arranged for 128
  the chief executive of the agency to write to the right hon. Gentleman and for a copy of his response to be placed in the Library of the House.

  Mr. Denzil Davies
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will list the outside directorships of each member of the board of the Welsh Development Agency.

  Mr. David Hunt
  This information is not kept centrally. However, it is a condition of board membership that no outside interests are maintained which would be likely to conflict with such membership.

  Mr. Denzil Davies
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what was the total sum spent by the Welsh Development Agency in the latest available year on the clearance of derelict land.

  Mr. David Hunt
  In 1990–91 the WDA spent £24 million on the reclamation of derelict land. Accounts for the year 1991–92 will be published shortly.

  Youth Training
  Mr. Llwyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many young people currently awaiting places on youth training schemes in Wales are currently in receipt of bridging allowance; and what is the total value of the allowance.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  The number of young people in receipt of bridging allowances at August 1992 in Wales was 515.

  The value of the allowance is £15 per week per person.

  Mr. Llwyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many trainees are currently on youth training schemes in Wales; and how many were deemed to need assistance with(a) numeracy and (b) literacy.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  The most recent information available (estimates at 13 September 1992) indicates that there were approximately 14,300 trainees on youth training schemes in Wales.

  Training and enterprise councils have an obligation to provide for young people with a numeracy or literacy need, but are not required to collect statistics indicating the numbers involved. The figures requested are, therefore, not available.

  Mr. Llwyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will publish the percentage level for unemployment amongst youth training leavers in Wales in each year since 1989–90.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  Information relating to the percentage level of unemployment amongst youth training leavers in Wales is provided in the table.

  Unemployment amongst youth training leavers (Wales)

  per cent.

  April 1989 to March 1990

  15.9

  April 1990 to March 1991

  22.5

  April 1991 to December 19911

  26.2

  1 Latest period for which information is currently available.

  Mr. Llwyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what was the overall budget allocated for youth training in Wales during 1991–92 and 1992–93; if he will publish the
  129
  estimated budget level for 1993–94; and how much has been allocated per youth training place on average in each instance.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  The youth training budget for 1991–92 was £52.152 million and for 1992–93 is £48.441 million; information relating to budgets for 1993–94 is not yet available.

  The average price per filled place was £53.80 per week for 1991–92 and is £49.40 per week for 1992–93.

  Mr. Llwyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what percentage of trainees on youth training placements achieved qualifications as part of their placement in each training and enterprise council area in Wales during each of the last three years; and what percentage of placements were brought to an end within three months in each training and enterprise council area.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  Information relating to the achievement of qualifications on youth traning and numbers of youth training leavers within three months is provided in the tables.

  Table 1

  Qualifications obtained during 1990–91

  Full qualification

  Part qualification

  Per cent.

  Per cent.

  Gwent

  26

  17

  Swansea

  35

  21

  Cardiff

  29

  19

  Wrexham

  40

  23

  The figures relate to the four areas of Wales which existed prior to the setting up of training and enterprise councils (TECs). Reliable figures on qualifications obtained are not available for TECs for 1990–91, since TECs in Wales were mostly operational for only a small part of the year.

  Table 2

  Qualifications obtained April-November 1991

  Full qualification

  Part qualification

  Per cent.

  Per cent.

  Gwent

  26

  15

  West Wales

  36

  22

  Mid Glamorgan

  27

  19

  South Glamorgan

  26

  15

  North West Wales

  46

  24

  These are the latest available figures for TECs, since follow up of YT leavers is undertaken six months after leaving.

  Figures for north east Wales and Powys are not available owing to the low number of respondents to the follow up survey in those areas.

  Table 3

  Leavers staying less than three months with a training provider

  Per cent.

  1990–91

  Gwent

  34

  Swansea

  28

  Cardiff

  32

  Wrexham

  26

  130

  Per cent.

  April 1991 to November 1991

  Gwent

  30

  West Wales

  30

  Mid Glamorgan

  29

  South Glamorgan

  34

  Powys

  23

  North East Wales

  7

  North West Wales

  15

  The figures show the percentages of all leavers who spent less than three months with a training provider. They include those who transferred from one provider to another during the period.

  Information is not available on the number of placements brought to an end within three months.

  Mr. Llwyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if his Department will publish an estimated figure for the number of 16 and 17-year-olds in Wales who are without a job or a place on a training scheme and who are not in full-time education.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  We have recently introduced new measures which will enable this information to be collected on a monthly basis. The first monthly count has only just been completed and we intend to publish this information as soon as we are satisfied that it is both comprehensive and accurate.

  Mr. Llwyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many 16 and 17-year-olds have been(a) killed and (b) seriously injured in work-related training placement accidents on youth training and youth training schemes in Wales in each year since 1983.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  The number of individuals who have been killed or injured on youth training schemes in Wales in each year since 1983 is given in the following table. Separate figures, by age, are not available.

  Wales

  YT(S) Accident statistics

  Year

  Fatal

  Major

  Minor

  11983

  0

  2

  40

  1984

  0

  20

  162

  1985

  0

  17

  161

  1986

  2

  26

  173

  1987

  1

  27

  224

  1988

  1

  46

  265

  1989

  0

  43

  214

  1990

  0

  36

  189

  1991

  1

  37

  140

  21992

  0

  8

  61

  1 The data for 1983 covers only the period 1 April to 31 December 1983.

  2 The data for 1992 covers only the period 1 January to 30 June 1992.

  Notes

  (a) Employment Department figures for trainees have been compiled on a similar basis to those prepared by the Health and Safety Executive for employed persons. However, the Employment Department's figures include a number of accidents to trainees in educational establishments, and road traffic accidents, which would not have been reportable to the Health and Safety Executive had the individuals been employed.

  (b) Major injuries are classified according to the severity criteria laid down in the Reporting of Injuries, Diseases and Dangerous Occurrences Regulations 1985. These regulations, which came into force on 1 April 1986, re-classified

  131
  fractured wrists and ankles as major injuries. These were not classed as major injuries in the previous regulations, the Notifications of Accidents and Dangerous Occurrences Regulations 1980 (NADOR).

  Mr. Llwyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales which training and enterprise councils in Wales are currently not fulfilling the Government's guarantee of a training place on youth training schemes for all 16 and 17-year-olds in Wales.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  We have recently introduced new measures which will enable information to be collected regularly to help identify localised difficulties, and which will encourage closer liaison between training and enterprise councils and careers services. The first monthly count under the new arrangement has only just been completed and it is therefore too early for the full picture to emerge. However, we have made it abundantly clear that we regard meeting the YT guarantee by TECs as of paramount importance and have said that no TEC will be prevented by lack of resource from meeting the guarantee.

  Health Education
  Mr. Llwyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (1) what work is currently undertaken by his Department into the teaching of the dangers of alcohol abuse within the school curriculum in Wales;

  (2) what research work is currently undertaken by his Department to evaluate the teaching of sex education in schools in Wales.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  Teaching about the dangers of alcohol abuse and sex education are part of the cross curricular theme of health education within the national curriculum. It is subject to inspection by Her Majesty's inspectors of schools who have undertaken several surveys of provision in counties in Wales. Our new arrangements for inspections by registered inspectors will ensure more published reports on all aspects of the life of a school.

  The Welsh Office provides funding for the appointment of local education authority health education coordinators who are closely involved in teaching in schools and make regular reports on provision and practice.

  Weight Statistics
  Mr. Llwyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what percentage of young people between the ages of 16 and 19 years are(a) normal weight, (b) 8 per cent. overweight, (c) 1 per cent. obese and (d) under normal weight in each health authority in Wales.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  The information requested is not available centrally. However, a survey carried out in 1990 by the Health Promotion Authority for Wales found that in the 18 to 24 year age group, 24 per cent. of men and 27 per cent. of women in Wales were overweight.

  For the purpose of the study a person was considered to be overweight if that person's weight (measured in kilograms) divided by the square of their height (measured in metres2) is greater than 24 in the case of men or 23 in the case of women.

  Deregulation
  Mr. Sproat
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what financial provisions, and how much, he has made within his Department in order to look at the potential for deregulation of each of the regulatory measures for which he has responsibility.

  Mr. David Hunt
  I have made all my staff aware of the need to consider the potential for deregulation of existing regulatory measures and of the need to assess compliance costs of any new regulations in Wales. I have provided £54,000 for my departmental deregulation unit to co-ordinate this work in my Department and with Departments in England since the Government introduced their deregulation initiative in 1985.

  Job Creation Schemes
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he expects to conclude his attempts to produce a comparable methodology for the evaluation of job creation schemes undertaken by the Welsh Development Agency, the Development Board for Rural Wales and the Welsh Office Industry Department; what consultancy assistance he is using for this exercise; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. David Hunt
  The development of evaluation techniques is a continuing process which the Department and other bodies will take forward in the light of the recent report by the Public Accounts Committee (HCP 76), calling on external consultancy advice as necessary.

  Smoking
  Mr. Llwyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is his estimate of the percentage of(a) males and (b)females between the ages of 16 and 19 years in Wales who are regular smokers.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  The latest available estimates are given in the table:

  Daily smokers per cent.

  Smoking at least weekly per cent.

  Male

  16

  21

  Female

  19

  29

  Tourism
  Mr. Llwyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will publish figures showing the total earnings from tourism in Wales in each year since 1981; and if he will break the figures down according to(a) earnings from United Kingdom staying visitors, (b) overseas visitors and (c)day visitors.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  Estimates of expenditure by overnight visitors to Wales are given in the table. Estimates of expenditure by day visitors are available only for the financial year ending on 31 March 1989 when an estimated £22 million was spent in Wales.

  (Source: The leisure day visits survey 1988–89, conducted by the Office of Population Censuses and Surveys on behalf of the Department of Employment and the British Tourist Authority.)
  133

  Expenditure by overnight visitors to Wales1

  Year

  United Kingdom visitors2

  Overseas visitors

  £ million

  £ million

  1981

  n/a

  50

  1982

  n/a

  55

  1983

  n/a

  85

  1984

  n/a

  90

  1985

  n/a

  95

  1986

  n/a

  100

  1987

  n/a

  120

  1988

  n/a

  100

  1989

  985

  120

  1990

  900

  130

  1991

  900

  130

  Sources: United Kingdom Travel Survey, International Passenger Survey.

  1 These estimates, derived from sample surveys and thus subject to potential random sampling errors, have been rounded to the nearest £5 million.

  2 Since 1989 information has been obtained from the United Kingdom Tourism Survey (UKTS), sponsored jointly by the statutory tourist boards from England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. It is not possible to make a direct comparison between the results of this latter survey and those of earlier surveys.

  Alcohol Consumption
  Mr. Llwyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what assessment he has made of the percentage of young people between the age of 16 to 19 years who drink alcohol at least once a week in each health authority area in Wales.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  The latest available best estimates from the Health Promotion Authority for Wales are as follows:

  Estimated percentage drinking alcohol at least weekly by District Health Authority, Wales 16 to 19 year olds, 1990

  Male

  Female

  Clwyd

  58.0

  51.5

  Dyfed

  57.6

  53.7

  Gwent

  61.0

  47.7

  Gwynedd

  66.3

  49.7

  Mid Glamorgan

  66.1

  49.2

  Powys

  58.5

  47.7

  South Glamorgan

  59.8

  47.7

  West Glamorgan

  61.9

  57.1

  Wales

  61.1

  50.6

  Pregnant Girls
  Mr. Llwyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many girls under 16 years became pregnant in each health authority area in Wales in each year since 1981.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  Data on conceptions are not available at district health authority level. However, the number of conceptions to girls aged under 16 usually resident in Wales, which led to a maternity or were terminated by abortion under the Abortion Act 1967, are presented in the table. Conceptions which led to an illegal or spontaneous abortion are excluded.

  Conceptions (aged under 16)

  1981

  455

  1982

  547

  1983

  558

  134

  Conceptions (aged under 16)

  1984

  553

  1985

  577

  1986

  510

  1987

  545

  1988

  536

  1989

  460

  1990

  523

  Source: Office of Population Censuses and Surveys

  Road Safety
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met representatives of local councils in Wales to discuss levels of provision for road safety measures; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. David Hunt
  Local government finance issues are discussed at the Welsh Consultative Council on Local Government Finance, a meeting of which I chaired on 6 July.

  Ecstasy
  Mr. Llwyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make it his policy to undertake detailed research on the use of MDMA (ecstasy) in Wales.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  Data are currently collected on the incidence of drug misusers presenting for treatment in Wales. A specialist sub-committee of the Welsh Committee for Drug Misuse is already looking at methodologies for undertaking prevalence studies.

  Children's Hospital
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what consultations he has had with the chairmen of Welsh health authorities concerning the provision of a specialist children's hospital for Wales; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  None. I am aware, however, that South Glamorgan health authority has commissioned the King's Fund to assess the feasibility and viability of a proposal to establish a comprehensive child health service providing specialist services to children across Wales.

  Bruce Report
  Mr. Win Griffiths
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will publish the Bruce report on careers guidance and education.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  The review of careers guidance was an internal review carried out by the Employment Department. It is not customary to publish and release internal reviews. The review was taken into account in the consultation exercise which led to proposals for developing careers advice and guidance published in the White Paper "Education and Training for the 21st Century" (Cm. 156, Volume 1, Chapter 7).

  Disability
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will publish the latest available figures for the number of disabled people in Wales between the ages of 16 years
  135
  and 64 years indicating the total number currently in work/training and the total number registered as unemployed.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  At 31 March 1991 there were 147,918 people on the register of handicapped people in Wales. No information is held centrally on the numbers of disabled people between the ages of 16 and 64, nor the numbers in work/training or registered unemployed.

  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how much has been allocated by his Department to each local authority in Wales, in the latest year for which figures are available, to provide portable ramps to assist physical access into buildings; if he will list the buildings which have been granted funds in each local authority area; and if he will indicate which of these buildings were utilised as polling stations during the last general election.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  Expenditure on portable access ramps is a matter for individual local authorities in the light of the overall resources available to them and their service priorities.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what statistics he has concerning increased waiting lists for the fitting of adaptions and aids for the physically disabled under the disabled facilities grant scheme since 1 April; and what were the numbers on Welsh local authority waiting lists on(a) 1 January 1991, (b) 1 July 1991, (c) 1 January 1992 and (d) 1 July 1992, respectively.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  Information on such waiting lists is not held centrally.

  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many people with disabilities are registered with the Employment Service and therefore qualify for a green card in Blaenau Gwent; what percentage of these people is registered unemployed; and what are the comparable figures for Wales as a whole.

  Mr. David Hunt
  The number of people registered as disabled under the Disabled Persons (Employment) Act 1944 and who are therefore eligible to receive a certificate of registration (green card) in the Blaenau Gwent constituency is 504. The comparable figure for Wales is 21,998. These are the latest figures, based on a count conducted in April 1992.

  Information is not available about the percentage of registered disabled people in Blaenau Gwent and Wales who are registered unemployed.

  Young Offenders
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he expects the Welsh Office working party on secure accommodation for young offenders to present its report.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  The working party under the chairmanship of the chief executive of West Glamorgan county council, is charged with taking forward the detailed design and planning of the new secure unit and I look forward to the provision of secure accommodation being pursued as quickly as possible.

  European Centre
  Mr.Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make representations to the European Community for additional structural fund monies so as to allow more Welsh companies and organisations to subscribe to the European centre project.

  Mr. David Hunt
  It would not be appropriate for me to seek specific additional structural fund resources from the European Commission to support such initiatives. It would be for the relevant programme committee to determine whether or not applications submitted by sponsors for assistance with their contributions to the Wales European centre were eligible for structural fund support and, if so, whether these should be afforded sufficient priority to secure a part of the available resources.

  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many visitors have called at the Wales European centre in Brussels to date; and what are the estimated targets for visitor numbers in 1992–93.

  Mr. David Hunt
  The number of visitors calling at the Wales European centre from April 1992 to September 1992 was 260. This compares favourably with initial estimates for the number of visitors during 1992–93 of 400.

  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list the companies and organisations which have subscribed to the Wales European centre project to date.

  Mr. David Hunt
  The following organisations have subscribed, or have agreed to subscribe, to the Wales European centre: the Welsh Development Agency, the Assembly of Welsh Counties, 34 of the district councils, six of the training and enterprise councils, the development Board for Rural Wales and the University of Wales College, Cardiff.

  Children in Care
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many children and young people were admitted to local authority care in each Welsh local authority area in both 1990 and 1991; and if he will express this both as total numbers and as a proportion per thousand children.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  The numbers of children and young people admitted to local authority care for the years ended 31 March 1990 and 1991 are shown in the table.

  All admissions were of children aged under 18 years.

  Number of children and young persons admitted to local authority care during the 12 months ended 31 March

  1990

  1991

  Number

  Rate1

  Number

  Rate1

  Clwyd

  218

  2.3

  216

  2.3

  Dyfed

  191

  2.4

  203

  2.6

  Gwent

  396

  3.8

  359

  3.5

  Gwynedd

  120

  2.2

  135

  2.5

  Mid Glamorgan

  435

  3.4

  315

  2.5

  Powys

  40

  1.6

  53

  2.1

  South Glamorgan

  313

  3.2

  308

  3.2

  West Glamorgan

  239

  2.9

  237

  2.9

  Wales

  1,952

  2.9

  1,826

  2.8

  1 Rate per thousand population aged 0–17 years.

  Slate
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what progress has been made by his Department to date on the promoting of the sale of Welsh slate within other member countries of the EC.

  Mr. David Hunt
  The Welsh Office does not promote specific products. However, Government agencies like the Welsh Development Agency and the Development Board for Rural Wales offer help to individual companies with marketing and sourcing of their products and services both within the United Kingdom and overseas.

  Local Government Finance
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make it his policy not to change the formula for allocating central government finance to local authorities in Wales.

  Mr. David Hunt
  The formulae for distributing resources within the local government revenue settlement have been agreed annually between the Welsh Office and the Welsh local authority associations through the forum of the Welsh Consultative Council on Local Government Finance. The formulae for 1993–94 need to take account of changes in local government functions from 1 April 1993 and the introduction of the council tax on the same date. The distribution formulae will be set out in the Welsh Local Government finance report 1993–94 to be laid before the House in the new year.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what policy considerations underlay his decision to change the financial allocation to local authorities for expenditure

  Cardiff Bay Development Corporation—board attendance record

  October 1990

  October 1990 S*

  November 1990

  December 1990

  February 1991

  March 1991

  G. D. Inkin

  P

  P

  P

  P

  P

  P

  Lord Brooks of Tremorfa

  P

  P

  P

  P

  A

  P

  Mrs. M. Barnes

  P

  P

  A

  P

  P

  P

  J. A. Beveridge

  P

  P

  P

  P

  P

  P

  P. Chapple

  A

  A

  Deceased

  Mrs. H. Chapman

  A

  P

  A

  A

  P

  A

  A. G. Cox

  A

  P

  P

  A

  P

  P

  B. H. R. Hudson-Davies

  p

  P

  P

  p

  P

  p

  T. Hunter Jarvie

  P

  W. P. Kitson

  P

  A

  P

  P

  P

  P

  J. R. Phillips

  P

  P

  P

  P

  P

  P

  J. P. Sainsbury

  H. R. Silverman

  P

  P

  P

  P

  P

  P

  L. S. Smith

  B. K. Thomas

  R. E. Watkiss

  P

  A

  P

  P

  P

  A

  A = Absent. S* = Special board meeting. P = Present.

  Cardiff Bay Development Corporation—board attendance record

  April 1991

  May 1991

  June 1991

  July 1991

  September 1991

  October 1991

  G. D. Inkin

  P

  P

  P

  P

  P

  P

  Lord Brooks of Tremorfa

  A

  P

  P

  P

  P

  A

  Mrs. M. Barnes

  A

  P

  A

  A

  P

  A

  J. A. Beveridge

  A

  A

  P

  P

  P

  P

  P. Chapple

  Deceased

  Mrs. H. Chapman

  P

  P

  P

  P

  P

  A

  A. G. Cox

  P

  P

  P

  A

  P

  P

  B. H. R. Hudson-Davies

  P

  A

  P

  P

  P

  P

  T. Hunter Jarvie

  P

  A

  A

  Not re-elected to Vale of Glamorgan Borough Council

  W. P. Kitson

  P

  P

  P

  P

  P

  A

  J. R. Phillips

  P

  P

  P

  P

  P

  A

  J. P. Sainsbury

  P

  138
  on the disabled facilities grants scheme from the basic credit approval sector to the supplementary credit approval with effect from 1 April; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  Resources for disabled facilities grant are already provided within local authorities' basic credit approvals. This allows for the necessary flexibility of operational response in providing the support best suited to the needs of disabled people.

  Eastern Europe
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what steps have been undertaken to date by his Department to assist economic development and training in(a) Estonia, (b) Lithuania, (c) Slovenia, (d) Ukraine, (e) the Russian Federation and (f) Slovakia.

  Mr. David Hunt
  A delegation from the Czech and Slovak Federal Republic visited Wales in 1990. Although my Department has not taken any special initiatives, I am aware that considerable efforts have been made by others, including the Welsh Development Agency, in assisting economic development and training in some of the former eastern bloc countries.

  Cardiff Bay Development Corporation
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will publish the attendance record of the board members of the Cardiff Bay Development Corporation for each of the past two years at all full board meetings.

  Mr. David Hunt
  The information requested is shown in the table.
  139

  April 1991

  May 1991

  June 1991

  July 1991

  September 1991

  October 1991

  H. R. Silverman

  A

  P

  P

  P

  P

  P

  L. S. Smith

  P

  P

  B. K. Thomas

  P

  P

  P

  P

  R. E. Watkiss

  P

  Deceased

  A=Absent. S*=Special board meeting. P=Present

  Cardiff Bay Development Corporation—board attendance record

  November 1991

  November S*

  December 1991

  February 1992

  March 1992

  April 1992

  G. D. Inkin

  P

  P

  P

  P

  P

  P

  Lord Brooks of Tremorfa

  P

  P

  A

  P

  P

  A

  Mrs. M. Barnes

  P

  P

  Retired from CBDC Board

  J. A. Beveridge

  A

  A

  P

  P

  P

  P

  P. Chapple

  Deceased

  Mrs. H. Chapman

  P

  A

  P

  P

  P

  P

  A. G. Cox

  P

  P

  A

  P

  P

  P

  B. H. R. Hudson-Davies

  A

  P

  P

  P

  P

  P

  T. Hunter Jarvie

  Not re-elected to Vale of Glamorgan Borough Council

  W. P. Kitson

  P

  P

  P

  P

  P

  P

  J. R. Phillips

  P

  A

  P

  P

  P

  P

  J. P. Sainsbury

  P

  P

  P

  P

  A

  A

  H. R. Silverman

  A

  P

  P

  P

  P

  A

  L. S. Smith

  P

  P

  P

  P

  A

  A

  B. K. Thomas

  P

  P

  P

  P

  A

  P

  R. E. Watkiss

  Deceased

  A=Absent. S*=Special board meeting. P=Present

  Cardiff Bay Development Corporation—board attendance record

  May 1992

  June 1992

  July 1992

  September 1992

  October 1992

  Per cent.2

  G. D. Inkin

  P

  P

  P

  P

  P

  100

  Lord Brooks of Tremorfa

  P

  P

  P

  A

  P

  74

  Mrs. M. Barnes

  Retired from CBDC Board

  64

  J. A. Beveridge

  P

  P

  P

  P

  P

  83

  P. Chapple

  Deceased

  0

  Mrs. H. Chapman

  P

  P

  A

  P

  A

  65

  A. G. Cox

  P

  P

  A

  A

  A

  70

  B. H. R. Hudson-Davies

  P

  P

  P

  P

  P

  91

  T. Hunter Jarvie

  Not re-elected to Vale of Glamorgan Borough Council

  50

  W. P. Kitson

  P

  P

  P

  A

  P

  87

  J. R. Phillips

  P

  P

  P

  P

  P

  91

  J. P. Sainsbury

  P

  A

  P

  A

  P

  67

  H. R. Silverman

  P

  P

  A

  P

  P

  83

  L. S. Smith

  A

  P

  A

  P

  A

  62

  B. K. Thomas

  P

  P

  P

  P

  A

  87

  R. E. Watkiss

  Deceased

  71

  1 A = Absent. S* = Special board meeting. P = Present

  2 Per cent, covers tables 1 to 4.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what arrangements he has made for the auditing of the accounts of the Cardiff Bay Development Corporation; what reserve powers the National Audit Office has, for involvement in the auditing process of the corporation's accounts; what proposals he has to change the arrangements; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. David Hunt
  I have nothing to add to the letter that I wrote to the hon. Gentleman on 28 September.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what arrangements he has made or proposes to make for public consultation on the Wallace Evans and Partners study of the potential of de-watering wells for the combating of waterlogging of land areas within the protected property line published by the Cardiff Bay Development Corporation in connection with the proposed Cardiff bay barrage; and if he will make a statement.
  140
  Mr. David Hunt
  As I indicated to the hon. Gentleman on 24 June at col.217, I have sought the views of Mr. Roy Stoner. Cardiff Bay Development Corporation, Cardiff city council and the National Rivers Authority on the results of the report. Copies were also sent for information to petitioners against the Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill and other bodies with a known interest.

  Special Schools
  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many children in special schools were without a statement of needs in(a) January 1986 and (b) January 1991. in each county in Wales.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  Information relating to January 1986 is not available. Data for the next available year and 1991 are shown in the table:
  141

  Non-statemented pupils

  1987

  11991

  Clwyd

  0

  49

  Dyfed

  0

  0

  Gwent

  16

  0

  Gwynedd

  0

  2

  Mid Glamorgan

  1

  1

  Powys

  0

  8

  South Glamorgan

  49

  85

  West Glamorgan

  0

  0

  Wales

  66

  145

  1 From 1989 onwards, information on statemented pupils in special schools was collected at September.

  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (1) if he will make a statement on his policies for children in special schools;

  (2) if he will make a statement on the working of the Education Act 1981 concerning children in special schools.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  Our policy for children in special schools, as with other children, is to provide them with the opportunities to make the most of their potential. The Government have undertaken a fundamental review of the relevant provisions of the Education Act 1981 and we are bringing forward proposals to improve the current assessment and statementing process, to give parents the right to express a preference for their child's school and to provide a new appeal system. The details are in the consultation document "Special Education Needs—Access to the System" which was published on 15 July and a copy of which is in the Library of the House. These proposals will benefit not only children in special schools but all children with special educational needs.

  Minerals
  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement concerning his approach to the review of the provisions of the Town and Country Planning (Minerals) Act 1981: Old Mineral Permissions.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  The responses to the consultation paper issued in March on old mining permissions are under consideration. Further consultation is likely before any detailed proposals are implemented.

  Speed Traps
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what contracts he has awarded to BEAMAX for the installation and maintenance of radar camera and security systems speed traps on the M4, Severn bridge and trunk roads; when they were awarded; by what process of competitive tender; and for how long.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  The Department has not awarded any contracts to BEAMAX.

  Milk Marketing Board
  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many milk producers in Wales currently deal with the Milk Marketing Board.

  Mr. David Hunt
  The figure is 5,289 as at August 1992.

  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what discussions he has had with the National 142
  Farmers Union and the Farmers Union of Wales in Wales concerning the future of the Milk Marketing Board; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. David Hunt
  I am in regular contact with the National Farmers Union and the Farmers Union of Wales and both unions have responded to the consultation document on the future of the England and Wales Milk Marketing Board. These responses will be considered along with others I have received.

  Hospital Waiting Lists
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list the numbers of patients waiting for in-patient treatment on 31 March for each individual health authority(a) in total and (b) by main speciality for periods (i) under 12 months, (ii) 12 to 24 months and (iii) over 24 months.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  The available information on waiting lists in Wales as at 31 March 1992 was published in "Welsh Hospital Waiting List Bulletin: 1992 No. 2" on 23 September and a copy has been placed in the Library of the House.

  The percentage of in-patients waiting over 12 months are shown in tables 1.1–1.10 and those waiting over 24 months are shown in table 2.1.

  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list the numbers of patients waiting for out-patient treatment on 31 March for each individual health authority(a) in total and (b) by main speciality for periods (i) under 12 months, (ii) 12 to 24 months and (iii) over 24 months.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  The available information on waiting lists in Wales as at 31 March 1992 was published in "Welsh Hospital Waiting List Bulletin: 1992 No. 2" on 23 September and a copy has been placed in the Library of the House.

  Information is available only on the percentage of out-patients waiting over three months and is shown in tables 1.1–1.10.

  Labour Statistics
  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what percentage of the male and female populations aged 16 years and over are economically active in (a) Blaenau Gwent and (b) Wales.

  Mr David Hunt
  The Office of Population Censuses and Surveys (OPCS) have to date published only a selection of 1991 census results in the county monitor series (CEN 91 CM). The Wales percentages given in the following table are provisional as they are derived directly from the rounded statistics in those monitors. National level results will be published in November 1992.

  Percentage of Working Age Group Economically Active, 1991

  Males (16–64 Years)

  Females (15–59 Years)

  per cent.

  per cent.

  a. Blaenau Gwent

  77.1

  58.1

  b. Wales

  81.2

  62.5

  143
  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is the latest male unemployment figure in (a) the Shotton travel-to-work area, (b) the Alyn and Deeside constituency and (c) the county of Clwyd.

  Mr. David Hunt
  The September 1992 male unemployment claimant figures are 5,965, 2,345 and 12,345 for the Shotton, Flint and Rhyl travel-to-work area, Alyn and Deeside constituency and county of Clwyd respectively.

  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is his latest estimate of the number of people in Wales(a) who have two jobs and (b) who are counted more than once in the employment figures.

  Mr. David Hunt
  Estimates derived from the Labour Force Survey of 3,000 households in Wales in spring 1992 suggest that 4.3 per cent. of employees had second jobs. Such estimates are subject to sampling variability.

  The exact number of people who are counted more than once in compiling the official estimates of employees in employment is not known. These latter estimates are based on figures collected from employers who do not generally know if an employee is filling the post as an additional job.

  Welsh World Trade Centre
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what proposals he has to occupy space in the Welsh world trade centre in 1993.

  Mr. David Hunt
  My Department has no current plans to take office space at the Welsh world trade centre. We will consider taking space at any relevant exhibitions which are held there.

  Farming Enterprises
  Mr. Morgan To
  ask the Secretary of State for Wales what consultations he has had with the NFU Wales and the Farmers Union of Wales regarding the viability of Welsh farming enterprises in Wales following the collapse of the auctioneers and mart-owners King Thomas Lloyd-Jones.

  Mr. David Hunt
  I have received a number of letters on this matter but have had no formal consultations on this issue with the farming unions.

  Water Pollution
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will place in the Library a progress report on the identification, monitoring and classification of private water supplies in Wales for nitrate.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  Local authorities are responsible for private water supplies in their areas. Paragraphs 7.7 and 7.8 of Welsh Office circular 68/91 (copies of which are in the Library of the House) specify the timescale for providing me with reports. The information the hon. Gentleman is seeking will not be available centrally until after June 1993.

  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (1) if he will list the surveys that are being carried out to identify the vulnerability of aquifers in Wales;

  (2) if he will publish a list of contaminated land sites in Wales which threaten groundwater quality.
  144
  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  The National Rivers Authority is currently producing a series of groundwater vulnerability maps, which will be based on geological and soil characteristics. These will enhance the N RA's ability to assess the risks from a number of factors, including those arising from contaminated land. In addition the authority routinely monitors groundwater, principally that used for potable supplies.

  Surveys of potentially contaminated land have been undertaken on behalf of the Welsh Office and the Welsh Development Agency, the most recent of these in 1987–88. A copy of this survey is available in the Library of the House.

  Investment
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will give details of his current and forthcoming overseas visit or visits to attract inward investment to Wales.

  Mr. David Hunt
  I have recently returned from an inward investment mission to the United States, Korea, Japan and Hong Kong. I have not yet arranged further visits.

  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is his estimate of public investment in Clwyd since 1980; and if he will list the main headings of such investment.

  Mr. David Hunt
  County estimates of gross domestic fixed capital formation by function of government have, so far, only been prepared for 1987 and 1988. These estimates were published in the Regional Accounts article of the November 1990 issue of Economic Trends (No. 445). The publication of figures for 1989 and 1990 is scheduled for the December 1992 issue.

  Dentists
  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is his estimate of the number of dentists now leaving dentistry in Wales and in the United Kingdom for practices abroad.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  This information is not held centrally.

  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is his estimate of the number of dentists in the national health service in Wales who are not accepting new patients.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  This information is not held centrally. General dental practitioners are independent contractors who are free to decide which patients to accept or reject.

  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many dentists are awaiting determination of or have declared bankruptcy in Wales in each of the last three years.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that my right hon. Friend gave him on 2 June 1992 at cols.433–35.

  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what initiatives he proposes to improve working conditions of dentists in the national health service in Wales.
  145
  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  The working conditions of general dental practitioners at their practice premises are their own responsibility, subject to health and safety regulations. In broader terms, the Government have initiated a fundamental review of the dental remuneration system. This review is being undertaken by Sir Kenneth Bloomfield who is to report by the end of the year.

  Employment Initiatives
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what new financial initiatives he intends to introduce to attract new jobs to Wales.

  Mr. David Hunt
  Regional selective assistance continues to prove an effective instrument and remains the cornerstone of our efforts which have already succeeded in securing considerable inward investment and helped many Welsh businesses to expand. Initiatives such as the financial services initiative and IT Wales are kept under review to ensure that they achieve the maximum effect in their target sectors.

  Textiles
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what progress has been made by his Department to date on the promotion of Welsh textiles within other EC member states.

  Mr. David Hunt
  There are no specific programmes to promote Welsh textiles in other EC member states. However, as part of its garment initiative the WDA is active in helping to develop the Welsh clothing industry.

  Anaesthetists
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list by regional health authority the current establishment requirement for anaesthetists; and how many are in post.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  No establishment requirement figure is set by the Department. The Royal College of Anaesthetists issues guidance to individual hospital units on the numbers and experience of anaesthetists required to satisfy the range of services provided.

  Bids for new posts are received by the Department and advice is sought from the Welsh Medical and Dental Manpower Committee.

  Provisional figures as at 30 September 1991, the latest figures which are available, show that there were 146 consultant anaesthetists in post in Wales (including locums) with a whole-time equivalent of 131.0.

  Brick Making
  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will visit the Butterley brick works, Lane End, Buckley.

  Mr. David Hunt
  I have no plans to visit Butterley Brick's operation at Buckley at the present time.

  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many people in each county in Wales are employed in brick making.

  Mr. David Hunt
  Brickmaking is not separately identified in employment estimates. In September 1989 146
  there were 800 people employed in Wales in the manufacture of all structural clay products. Figures at a county level may not be published because to do so would breach the guidelines for protecting confidential data relating to a small number of businesses.

  Car Leasing Schemes
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what meetings he has had with the chairmen of the non-departmental public bodies in Wales to examine the costs of their executive car leasing schemes.

  Mr. David Hunt
  None.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will give the total annual cost of executive car leasing schemes for(a) chairmen and vice chairmen, (b) senior executives and (c) middle management executives of each of the non-departmental public bodies in Wales.

  Mr. David Hunt
  This information is not held centrally. However, my Department has recently reminded NDPBs of the criteria which they must follow to ensure the cost-effectiveness of any car leasing arrangements.

  South Glamorgan Family Health Services Authority
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what are the terms and conditions and length of working week for Mrs. Janet Sainsbury as chair of the South Glamorgan family health services authority; what other candidates were considered for the post; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  The chairman of South Glamorgan family health services authority receives £11,720 for a time commitment of not less than 2½ days per week. A wide range of candidates was considered but their names are confidential.

  Local Government
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what consultations he has had with the structures working group of the Welsh county and district councils and his own officials regarding the most effective future patterns of local government in Wales.

  Mr. David Hunt
  The Welsh Consultative Council on Local Government, of which I am chairman, has received and discussed reports from the structures group and its sub-groups on this matter. I am now giving further consideration to the issues raised.

  Road Relief Schemes
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is his latest estimate of the completion date of the Brynglas tunnels, Malpas road relief schemes.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  The current contract completion date is July 1994.

  Quarrying
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will state his Department's policy towards the creation of coastal super-quarries.
  147
  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  The potential for coastal super-quarries will be taken into account in the current review of mineral planning guidance note 6 on the provision for aggregates in England and Wales. Individual applications will of course be considered on their merits, having full regard to all environmental considerations.

  Long-term Illness
  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what percentage of Welsh households in 1991 included someone with a long-term limiting illness.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  These figures are not available centrally. However, the Office of Population Censuses and Surveys (OPCS) have published a selection of 1991 Census results in the county monitor series (CEN 91 CM). A provisional figure for Wales as a whole can be derived from these rounded county statistics; it is that respondents in 32 per cent. of households adjudged that there were one or more persons in the household with a long-term limiting illness or disability. This included persons whose long term illness or disability was due to old age. National level results are expected to be released by OPCS in November 1992.

  Wales Promotional World Tour
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will give details of the costs to(a) his direct departmental budget, (b) the Welsh Development Agency, (c) the Wales Tourist Board and (d) other public bodies of the current Wales promotional world tour; if he will specify how many persons from each body are attending each leg of the tour; if he will publish a list of (a) business meetings, (b) cultural events, (c) exhibitions and (d) social events being undertaken by each group on each leg of the tour; what special literature has been printed for the tour and what arrangements have been made for shipping it; if he will place a copy in the Library of the prior cost-benefit analysis of the resourcing and purposes of the exercise; if he will institute an evaluation of the exercise after its completion and place a copy in the Library; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. David Hunt
  I have just returned from an inward investment mission to North America, Korea, Japan and Hong Kong leading a team of up to four officials from the Welsh Office. I shall write to the hon. Gentleman with the costs when I have full details, but I expect them to be in the region of £75,000.

  The Welsh Development Agency was represented by three people in the United States, two in Korea, three in Japan and two in Hong Kong. Several of the WDA representatives are based overseas and would have been overseas anyway irrespective of the mission itself.

  The Wales Tourist Board was not involved in the mission and no other public bodies were involved.

  For reasons of commercial confidentiality, it would not be appropriate to list each engagement, but in the 12 days I undertook 56 official engagements, 32 of which were directly business-related and four were cultural. The remainder consisted of engagements such as ministerial meetings, seminars and media interviews.

  No special literature was prepared for the mission. All such missions are carefully planned to ensure good value for money, and locations and engagements are chosen in order to maximise the potential benefits to Wales. Full
  148
  results will take time to become apparent, but I am confident that the mission will help significantly to maintain Wales's excellent inward investment record.

  River Loughor
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will serve a notice on the Welsh region of the National Rivers Authority requiring the stretch of the River Loughor which is categorised as level 3 of the national water classification scheme to meet a system of statutory water quality objectives.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  The National Rivers Authority (NRA) recently published its recommendations for a scheme of water quality classification for setting statutory water quality objectives. The authority's recommendations are currently being considered by the Government and we expect to be consulting widely in due course about our own proposals for implementing the scheme with the aim of starting to introduce statutory water quality objectives gradually from 1993.

  In the meantime the NRA is determined to prevent any deterioration in the quality of the River Loughor and to achieve improvements, where possible, consistent with the existing non-statutory river quality objectives.

  Flood Defences
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what plans he has to introduce new protective measures to avoid inundation by tidal waters of the Peterstone/St Brides and Crindau areas of Newport. Gwent.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  The National Rivers Authority, relevant local authorities and Caldicot and Wentlooge Drainage Board have powers to undertake sea defence works to protect from inundation by tidal waters the Peterstone/St. Brides and Crindau areas of Newport, Gwent. The Department is prepared to grant aid eligible schemes for the improvement of defence in these areas.

  Business Projects in Africa
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the work undertaken by his Department in developing Welsh business projects in Africa; and if he will list the projects concerned.

  Mr. David Hunt
  The Welsh Office does not promote individual overseas business projects. The Department's overseas trade services branch does, however, provide a range of advisory and information services, as well as practical help to Welsh companies who intend to export their goods and services overseas including the continent of Africa.

  Air Routes
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list all the new air routes that have been established linking Cardiff-Wales airport with other European destinations during 1991 and to date in 1992; and what progress has been made by his Department in the development of further new air routes linking Wales with mainland Europe.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  New European air routes established out of Cardiff-Wales airport during 1991 and to date in 1992 are as follows:
  149
  1991—Scheduled

  Belfast City

  Brussels

  Dublin

  Düsseldorf (subsequently cancelled)

  Guernsey

  Isle of Man

  Jersey

  Paris

  1992—Scheduled

  Aberdeen

  1992—Chartered

  Turkey

  Channel Islands

  Lyon

  Series of European city day trips (Berlin, Vienna, Rome).

  The development of further air routes is primarily for the commercial judgment of the airlines and the airport management. However, I understand that new scheduled services to Düsseldorf and Stuttgart may be introduced by the spring of next year.

  Public Expenditure
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the departments spending projects that will not be executed or completed because of alterations in the public spending per head formula relating expenditure per head in Wales preferentially to that in England.

  Mr. David Hunt
  When decisions about future levels of public expenditure have been made, they will be announced in the autumn statement in the normal way.

  Community Health Councils
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what have been the outturn sums paid to community health councils in each of the past 10 years and the amount planned for the next financial year; and if he will publish a table showing the sums indexed with the 1981–82 expenditure expressed as 100.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  The information requested on outturn expenditure over the past 10 years is given in the table. It should be noted that this relates to accrued expenditure not simply to cash payments. Planned cash provision in 1992–93 amounts to £1 million; but it is not possible, at this stage of the financial year, to make reliable forecasts of outturn expenditure in either accruals or cash terms. Provision for 1993–94 has not yet been determined.

  Community Health Councils: Expenditure

  Financial Year

  Outturn Expenditure1

  Index1 (1981–82 = 100)

  1981–82

  391,973

  100.00

  1982–83

  446,085

  106.24

  1983–84

  459,334

  104.55

  1984–85

  494,656

  107.22

  1985–86

  532,667

  109.42

  1986–87

  555,632

  110.51

  1987–88

  585,557

  110.45

  1988–89

  619,690

  109.02

  1989–90

  664,475

  109.67

  1990–91

  727,760

  111.07

  1991–92

  2937,288

  133.38

  Source: Health authorities annual accounts

  1Calculated by converting outturn expenditure to constant 1981–82 prices using the GDP deflator index and forming the 1981–82= 100 indices as presented.

  2Provisional pending finalisation of 1991–92 accounts.

  Faraday Centres
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list the Faraday centres established to date in Wales.

  Mr. David Hunt
  At present there are no Faraday centres in the United Kingdom. The Government are currently considering proposals for such centres and is seeking views from industry.

  Crown Buildings, Cardiff
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what proposals he has for occupation of the space in the Crown Buildings, Cathays Park, vacated by NCM of Amsterdam.

  Mr. David Hunt
  During the two years before NCM Credit Insurance Ltd is due to vacate the Crown Building at Cathays Park, my Department will be considering future use in consultation with the Department of Environment (Property Holdings) which is ultimately responsible for re-letting the space.

  Orthoptic Services
  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on orthoptic services in (a) the Clwyd health authority and (b) Wales.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  The management and provision of Orthoptic services in Wales is the responsibility of the district health authorities who assess local need and seek to make appropriate provision.

  Homelessness
  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is his estimate of the number of homeless people in (a) Clwyd, (b) Alyn and Deeside district council area and (c) Wrexham Maelor borough council area.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  The numbers of persons in households accepted as homeless during the quarter ending 30 June 1992 under part III of the Housing Act 1985 is given as follows:

  Number of persons

  Clwyd

  602

  Alyn and Deeside

  160

  Wrexham Maelor

  250

  Hospital Catering
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he had from the Gardner Merchant subsidiary of Forte plc prior to his awarding the South Glamorgan health authority catering contract at three hospitals; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  It is a matter for South Glamorgan health authority to award the contract but departmental guidance indicates that unless there are compelling reasons otherwise, the contract should be awarded to the lowest tenderer. In this case, the Department has indicated that the lowest tender should be accepted. Gardner Merchant sought clarification of tender procedures and how long it
  151
  would take to resolve the matter. There was no discussion between the Department and Gardner Merchant on the details of its tender.

  Development Board for Rural Wales
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what consultations he has had with the Chairman of the Development Board for Rural Wales concerning the recovery of sums spent without authority on the board's executive car leasing scheme.

  Mr. David Hunt
  None. However, my Department has written to the chief executive of the developmental board requesting that he consider the recovery of any excess costs incurred as a result of the unauthorised payments.

  Correspondence
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he proposes to reply to the letters to him dated 11 and 13 August from the hon. Member for Cardiff, West regarding the Welsh Development Agency's employment of unlicensed model agency. SHAPES.

  Mr. David Hunt
  My right hon. Friend the Minister of State replied in my absence on 27 August.

  Labour Statistics
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will publish the monthly totals and average percentage of the unemployment figures for (a) Wales and (b) the areas covered by the valleys inititative for each year from 1987.

  Mr. David Hunt
  The unemployment data requested for Wales are available from the NOMIS database, which can be accessed on-line by House of Commons Library staff. Unemployment figures for the Valleys area are given in the table:

  Unemployment in the Programme for the Valleys area

  Number1

  Rate2

  1987

  January

  44,703

  18.2

  February

  43,281

  17.7

  March

  42,001

  17.1

  April

  41,817

  17.1

  May

  41,183

  16.8

  June

  39,682

  16.2

  July

  39,646

  16.2

  August

  38,963

  15.9

  September

  40,237

  16.4

  October

  37,998

  15.5

  November

  36,888

  15.0

  December

  37,073

  15.1

  1988

  January

  37,797

  15.4

  February

  37,122

  15.1

  March

  36,234

  14.8

  April

  37,556

  15.3

  May

  35,675

  14.6

  June

  34,435

  14.0

  July

  33,558

  13.7

  August

  33,138

  13.5

  September

  33,391

  13.6

  October

  30,907

  12.6

  November

  30,354

  12.4

  December

  30,292

  12.4

  1989

  January

  30,963

  12.6

  152

  Number1

  Rate2

  February

  29,812

  12.1

  March

  29,095

  11.8

  April

  28,543

  11.6

  May

  27,411

  11.2

  June

  26,279

  10.7

  July

  26,291

  10.7

  August

  25,714

  10.5

  September

  25,928

  10.5

  October

  24,091

  9.8

  November

  23,296

  9.5

  December

  23,677

  9.6

  1990

  January

  24,764

  10.3

  February

  24,183

  10.0

  March

  23,797

  9.9

  April

  23,474

  9.8

  May

  22,922

  9.5

  June

  22,417

  9.3

  July

  23,146

  9.6

  August

  23,330

  9.7

  September

  23,647

  9.8

  October

  23,411

  9.7

  November

  24,052

  10.0

  December

  25,559

  10.6

  1991

  January

  27,077

  11.1

  February

  27,746

  11.4

  March

  28,995

  11.9

  April

  30,309

  12.5

  May

  30,274

  12.5

  June

  30,144

  12.4

  July

  31,557

  13.0

  August

  31,635

  13.0

  September

  31,751

  13.1

  October

  30,808

  12.7

  November

  31,130

  12.8

  December

  31,987

  13.2

  1992

  January

  33,469

  13.8

  February

  32,934

  13.6

  March

  32,271

  13.3

  April

  32,200

  13.3

  May

  31,443

  12.9

  June

  30,845

  12.7

  July

  31,438

  12.9

  August

  31,901

  13.1

  September

  32,310

  13.3

  Source: Employment Department.

  1 Unadjusted numbers of unemployed claimants.

  2 Unemployed claimants expressed as a percentage of the work force. 1987 rates use the 1988 work force, 1992 rates use 1991 work force figures.

  Valleys

  Wales

  Number

  Rate

  Number

  Rate

  1990

  January

  24,764

  10.3

  90,349

  6.9

  February

  24,183

  10.0

  88,851

  6.8

  March

  23,797

  9.9

  86,638

  6.6

  April

  23,474

  9.8

  84,557

  6.5

  May

  22,922

  9.5

  81,194

  6.2

  June

  22,417

  9.3

  79,103

  6.1

  July

  23,146

  9.6

  83,202

  6.4

  August

  23,330

  9.7

  84,609

  6.5

  September

  23,647

  9.8

  85,858

  6.6

  October

  23,411

  9.7

  86.03

  6.6

  November

  24,052

  10.0

  89,923

  6.9

  December

  25,559

  10.6

  95,662

  7.3

  1991

  January

  27,077

  11.1

  101,452

  7.8

  February

  27,746

  11.4

  104,889

  8.1

  March

  28,995

  11.9

  108,049

  8.3

  153

  Valleys

  Wales

  Number

  Rate

  Number

  Rate

  April

  30,309

  12.5

  110,504

  8.5

  May

  30,274

  12.5

  110,237

  8.5

  June

  30,144

  12.4

  109,783

  8.4

  July

  31,557

  13.0

  115,993

  8.9

  August

  31,635

  13.0

  118,469

  9.1

  September

  31,751

  13.1

  118,952

  9.1

  October

  30,808

  12.7

  117,089

  9.0

  November

  31,130

  12.8

  119,696

  9.2

  December

  31,987

  13.2

  122,910

  9.4

  1992

  January

  33,469

  13.8

  128,755

  9.9

  February

  32,934

  13.6

  128,105

  9.8

  March

  32,271

  13.3

  125,871

  9.7

  April

  32,200

  13.3

  125,661

  9.7

  May

  31,443

  12.9

  122,902

  9.4

  June

  30,845

  12.7

  120,512

  9.3

  July

  31,438

  12.9

  125,156

  9.6

  August

  31,901

  13.1

  128,391

  9.9

  September

  32,310

  13.3

  129,317

  9.9

  Source: Employment Department

  Disabled Facilities Grants
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will allocate disabled facilities grants expenditure by local authorities, under the heading of supplementary credit approvals.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  I shall be taking decisions on the 1993–94 allocations for housing capital provision in due course.

  Abandoned Mines
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what provision he will be making for public inspection of the duplicates of the British Coal abandoned mine records in Wales at his office; what charge will be made for consulting and copying thereof; what account he has taken of the present British Coal charges for the same service; what consultations he has had with the local planning authorities and construction industry professional groups; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. David Hunt
  Extensive consultations took place with interested parties prior to the publication of Command Paper 2034. The duplicate copy of the catalogue of plans is available for public inspection in the land use records office of my Department in Cardiff. There is no charge for this service.

  Caldicot Levels
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on progress achieved in the survey of alternative feeding grounds for wading birds on the Caldicot levels, being undertaken for the Cardiff Bay development corporation; and what provisions he has made of compulsory purchase powers for land assembly.

  Mr. David Hunt
  The current feasibility study into alternative mitigation measures for birds is in line with the advice of the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds and the Countryside Council for Wales. The study is examining the creation of a variety of wetland habitats. The consultants carrying out the study have made an interim presentation and will be making their final report 154
  later this year. Cardiff Bay Development Corporation commissioned the study jointly with the Land Authority for Wales. I have made no special provisions for compulsory purchase powers, though the land authority has such powers itself.

  Usk Barrage
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the Government policy on the Usk barrage proposal.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  When the River Usk Barrage Bill was given a Second Reading in another place on 13 July the Government indicated that they had no objection in principle to the powers being sought by Newport borough council. The borough council has now withdrawn the Private Bill and has indicated that it will consider seeking the necessary authority for the construction of the barrage through the order-making provisions of the Transport and Works Act 1992. In view of my possible involvement in the consideration of the Usk barrage proposal under these provisions it would not be appropriate for me to comment.

  Severn Bridge Tolls
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make it his policy to introduce amendments to the Severn Bridges Act 1992 in order to reduce the levels of tolls.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  The Government have no plans to reduce the level of tolls at the Severn bridge from the amounts already provided for under the Severn Bridges Act 1992.

  Carers in Wales
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what percentage of carers in Wales are currently over the age of 65 years.

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  There is no centrally held information on the ages of carers in Wales. The Office of Population Censuses and Surveys carried out a study in 1985 and published results for Great Britain1 which showed that 19 per cent. of male carers and 17 per cent of female carers were aged 65 or over.

  1Informal Carers: a study carried out on behalf of the Department of Health and Social Security as part of the 1985 General Household Survey.

  Means-tested Education Benefits
  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many children in Wales qualified for free school meals, uniform or clothing grants and other means-tested educational benefits in 1990–91 and 1991–92; and if he will also provide these figures as a percentage of the total school roll.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  The number of pupils who qualified for free school meals in 1990–91 and 1991–92 is as follows:

  1990–91

  1991–92

  Number of Pupils

  75,753

  87,913

  Expressed as the percentage of total on roll

  16.1

  18.5

  155
  Information on uniform or clothing grants and other means-tested educational benefits is not held centrally.

  Higher Education Academic Staff
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what proposals he has to set up a pay review body for Welsh higher education academic staff.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  None.

  Raw Milk
  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement concerning the new arrangements for the sale of raw milk off farms in Wales.

  Mr. David Hunt
  The labelling and testing requirements introduced in 1990 for the sale of raw milk appear to be working well. Interested parties have been consulted on the Milk Marketing Board's proposals for the future of milk marketing. I am considering the responses.

  Grant-maintained Schools
  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales whether he intends regularly to publish a list of schools considering grant-maintained status.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  No.

  Roads
  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement concerning his policy on strategic roads in Wales.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  My right hon. Friend's policy on roads is set out in "Roads in Wales: Progress and Plans for the 1990s", the 1992 Supplement and in the Welsh Office Department Report (Cm. 1916).

  Wages
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what proportion of the(a) male and (b) female Welsh work force receive wages below the national average.

  Mr. David Hunt
  In April 1992, the average gross weekly earnings of all full-time employees in Great Britain was £304.60.

  Information from the April 1992 new earnings survey shows that the proportion of full-time male employees in Wales (on adult rates whose pay was unaffected by absence) earning less than £300 per week was 59.3 per cent. (GB 51.3 per cent.).

  The proportion of full-time female employees in Wales earning under £300 per week was 80.9 per cent. (GB 75.9 per cent.).

  In interpreting the figures for Wales, it should be borne in mind that because of the shape of the earnings distribution, the percentage of the work force receiving less than national average earnings is more than 50 per cent. even for Great Britain as a whole.

  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many employees in Blaenau Gwent(a) are paid less than £3.40 per hour, (b) have weekly or hourly earnings falling below 68 per cent. of adult mean earnings and (c) have weekly earnings which do not exceed the lower earnings limit for national insurance liability.
  156
  Mr. David Hunt
  The information requested is not available below county level.

  Industrial and Economic Development
  Mr. Roger Evans
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will take measures to maintain industrial and economic development in Wales.

  Mr. David Hunt
  I have today published my consultation paper on the Welsh Economic Council, which I am placing in the Vote Office and the Library of the House. I have also arranged to send a copy to every Member representing Welsh constituencies.

DEFENCE

  Deregulation
  Mr. Sproat
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what financial provisions, and how much, he has made within his Department in order to look at the potential for deregulation of each of the regulatory measures for which he has responsibility.

  Mr. Aitken
  My Department's contribution to the Government's deregulation initiative will be provided from within existing resources.

  Nuclear Weapons
  Mr. Ainger
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will ask the working group on safety of United Kingdom nuclear weapons to review immediately the procedures for dealing with accidents involving nuclear weapons.

  Mr. Aitken
  In their report of the 13 July, the working group noted that there are well-developed procedures for dealing with accidents involving nuclear weapons. We regularly practise these arrangments which are overseen by the nuclear weapons safety committee, my Department's permanently constituted senior source of independent advice on nuclear weapon safety.

  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make it his policy to cease production of plutonium and highly enriched uranium in the United Kingdom, as part of Her Majesty's Government's efforts to halt nuclear weapon proliferation; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Aitken
  I have nothing to add to the answer that I gave to the hon. Member for Leyton (Mr. Cohen) on 16 July,Official Report, column 932–33.

  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) if he is yet in a position to publish his Department's scientists' review of nuclear weapon safety, with particular reference to accidents involving nuclear weapons road convoys; and if he will make a statement;

  (2) further to his answer on 12 June, Official Report, column 317, if he is yet in a position to publish his Department's scientists' review into the safety of nuclear warheads in the wake of the Drell report; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Aitken
  I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply given to the hon. Member for Leyton (Mr. Cohen) on 13 July at column 521, in which publication of the working group's report was announced.
  157
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what is his current estimate of the date of decision on the formal tenders for contractorisation of the Atomic Weapons Establishment pursuant to the passage of the Atomic Weapons Establishment Act 1991 and his letter of 4 June 1992 to the hon. Member for Cardiff, West.

  Mr. Aitken
  We expect to announce the successful tenderer in early 1993.

  RAF Stations
  Mr. Ainger
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) how many of the RAF personnel transferred from RAF Brawdy to RAF Valley will be accommodated in MOD property;

  (2) how many of the RAF personnel that will be transferred from RAF Brawdy to RAF Chivenor will be accommodated in MOD property.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  All those transferring to both stations will eventually be accommodated in MOD property.

  Mr. Ainger
  Toask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) how many RAF personnel are planned to be transferred from RAF Brawdy to(a) RAF Chivenor, (b) RAF Valley and (c) elsewhere;

  (2) how many RAF personnel have been transferred from RAF Brawdy to (a) RAF Chivenor, (b) RAF Valley and (c) elsewhere following the ending of tactical weapons training at RAF Brawdy.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  Twenty seven RAF personnel from Brawdy out of an eventual total of 41 have already transferred to RAF Chivenor and 30 out of an eventual total of 44 have been transferred to RAF Valley; 161 service men have been posted elsewhere out of an eventual total of 394.

  RAF Stations
  Mr. Ainger
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many MOD properties in the vicinity of RAF Valley have been sold in the last (a) 10 years, (b) five years and (c) three years.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  Sixty-seven have been sold in the past 10 years—two in 1983, five in 1991 and 60 in 1992.

  Mr. Ainger
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many MOD properties in the vicinity of RAF Chivenor have been sold in the last (a) 10 years, (b) five years and (c) three years.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  None.

  Mr. Ainger
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what is his best estimate of increased accommodation costs to his Department as a result of the transfer of former RAF Brawdy personnel to (a) RAF Chivenor and (b) RAF Valley.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The estimated cost in excess rent allowance thus far is £5,500 at RAF Chivenor and £1,500 at RAF Valley.

  Mr. Ainger
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) how many of the RAF personnel already transferred from RAF Brawdy to RAF Valley have been accommodated in MOD property;
  158
  (2) how many of the RAF personnel already transferred from RAF Brawdy to RAF Chivenor have been accommodated in MOD property.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  Of those personnel already transferred from RAF Brawdy, 11 have been accommodated in MOD property at RAF Chivenor and 23 at RAF Valley.

  Corporal Mark Travis
  Mr. John Evans
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when he expects to reply to the letter from the hon. Member for St. Helens, North, sent to him on 18 June concerning the imprisonment of RAF Corporal Mark Travis.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  My noble Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence wrote to the hon. Member on 28 July.

  Queen Elizabeth Military Hospital
  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) if he will make a statement on the future military requirement for the Queen Elizabeth military hospital;

  (2) if he will have discussions with the South East Thames health authority about the future availability of the Queen Elizabeth military hospital.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The future requirement for all service hospitals in the United Kingdom, including the Queen Elizabeth military hospital, is still under review. There have, however, been exploratory talks with the South East Thames regional health authority.

  Cambodia
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many(a) armed service and (b) civilian observers from his Department are currently with the United Nations transitionary authority in Cambodia: what are their rank; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  There are currently 121 UK military personnel in the United Nations transitionary authority in Cambodia (UNTAC). The full breakdown by service and rank is as follows:

  no.

  Royal Navy:

  Lieutenant Commander

  1

  Lieutenant

  6

  Warrant Officer

  1

  Chief Petty Officer

  17

  Petty Officer

  20

  Leading Hand

  6

  Royal Marines:

  Captain

  5

  Colour Sergeant

  1

  Sergeant

  14

  Army:

  Lieutenant Colonel

  8

  Major

  15

  Captain

  11

  Staff Sergeant

  2

  Sergeant

  2

  Corporal

  7

  159

  no.

  Royal Air Force:

  Wing Commander

  1

  Squadron Leader

  1

  Flight Lieutenant

  3

  No civilians from my Department are serving with UNTAC in Cambodia at present.

  Low Flying
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he is yet in a position to measure the noise levels generated by the F-15E aircraft at low level; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  A trial to measure the noise generated by the F-15E aircraft at low level took place in September and the information obtained is being analysed.

  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will list by date for the last 12 months the number of complaints of alleged illegal low flying by army helicopters which have been received at Royal Air Force Pitreavie; what were the comparable total figures for(a) 12 months, (b) 24 months, (c) 36 months and (d) 48 months ago; how many complaints have subsequently been substantiated; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  Only one complaint has been received by RAF Pitreavie about low flying by an Army helicopter in the past four years.

  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will list(a) by date and (b) by location the number of complaints of alleged illegal low flying by Army helicopters that have been received in the eastern district in the last 12 months; what were the comparable total figures for (i) 12 months, (ii) 24 months, (iii) 36 months and (iv) 48 months ago; how many complaints have subsequently been substantiated; and if he will indicate the helicopter squadrons concerned and the types of helicopter involved.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The information is not held in the form requested.

  Air Crash, North Sea
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what was the result of the air accident report into the Royal Air Force Buccaneer which crashed into the North sea on 9 July; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The RAF board of inquiry into this incident is not yet complete. My noble Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Defence will forward a copy of the military aircraft accident summary to the hon. Member as soon as this is available.

  Air Misses
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what was the result of the air accident report on the two Tornado F3 jets from Royal Air Force Leeming which were involved in a mid-air incident over Alnwick, Northumberland on 16 July; what was the nature of the sorties being carried out; at what height were the aircraft flying at the time of the incident; and if he will make a statement.
  160
  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The RAF board of inquiry into this incident, which took place some 10 nautical miles west of Alnwick, is not yet complete. My noble Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Defence will write to the hon. Member in due course with a summary of its findings. The aircraft were practising interceptions at some 2,000 feet above ground level when the incident occurred.

  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what were the results of the Civil Aviation Authority investigation into the near air-miss over Lincolnshire on 19 August, involving Royal Air Force Tornado aircraft and a civilian light aircraft; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  This incident is under investigation by the joint airmiss section of the National Air Traffic Services and will then be considered by the joint airmiss working group. My noble Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Defence will forward the hon. Member a copy of the group's findings as soon as these are available.

  "Riders"
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he is yet in a position to give the costs and formal charges that are being raised by his Department for the use of the Household Cavalry giving assistance to Anglia TV during that company's production of "Riders"; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  A sum of £210.61 has been recovered in payment for 10 one-hour long riding lessons given to members of the cast.

  Bomb Incident, Golspie
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, pursuant to his answer of 8 July,Official Report, column 184, in respect of a practice bomb being dropped on 4 June by a United States Air Force jet on to a site of special scientific interest at Golspie, if he will send a copy of the report that his Department received from the United States Air Force to the hon. Member for Don Valley; and if he will now give full details of the amount that has been agreed in way of compensation.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  I will write to the hon. Member regarding the United States air force report. My Department has agreed to pay some £1,000 to Sutherland Estates for time and costs incurred as a result of this incident.

  US Air Bases
  Mr. Redmond
  To asked the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the future of(a) Royal Air Force Bentwaters and (b) Royal Air Force Woodbridge, after the US Air Force leaves these bases in 1993.

  Mr. Cann
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what proposals he has for the future use of the Bentwaters air base after the American departure in 1993.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  It was announced locally on 21 August that the RAF had no future use for the twin US bases of RAF Bentwaters/Woodbridge. Alternative
  161
  defence uses are currently being examined. Should none be identified the bases will be declared surplus and disposed of following consultation with local authorities and other interested parties.

  Catterick Army Base
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what was the result of the short notice visit carried out by Russian military inspectors at the Catterick army base on 22 July under the CFE arms control treaty.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The inspection at Catterick was carried out satisfactorily. The Russian inspection team were content with the conduct and outcome of the inspection.

  Munitions Dumping
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what consultations he has had with environmental, fishing and maritime representative organisations regarding the proposed dumping of redundant munitions off Porcupine hank; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  None. Ministry of Defence sea dumping activities are consistent with international agreements and are carried out in a strictly controlled manner to ensure that they do not cause damage to the marine environment, or interfere with fishing or other legitimate uses of the sea. MOD will terminate all sea dumping of redundant munitions by 1 January 1993 in line with international agreements.

  Atomic Weapons Establishment
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what is the final date for submission of tenders for the contractorisation of the Atomic Weapons Establishment pursuant to his letter to the hon. Member for Cardiff, West, dated 4 June.

  Mr. Aitken
  The final date for submission of tenders for full contractor operation of the Atomic Weapons Establishment was 1 September 1992.

  Nuclear Tests
  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what evaluation he has made of the prospects for the continued use of the Nevada test site by the United Kingdom for its nuclear testing programme, following the vote in the United States Senate to restrict the use of the test site and to halt all nuclear tests by September 1996.

  Mr. Aitken
  The hon. Member will know that the United States Congress has now enacted legislation imposing a moratorium on nuclear testing until July 1993, with a final end to testing in 1996. The legislation provides for continued use of the Nevada test site by the United Kingdom up to that date. The position after 1996 will depend upon whether any other country tests after that date.

  Electro-magnetic Pulse Phenomena
  Mr. Dalyell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what study he has made of the potential advantage or threat from the development of weapons utilising electro-magnetic pulse phenomena.

  Mr. Aitken
  My Department has been aware for many years of the effects of electro-magnetic pulse (EMP) and has conducted and sponsored research into this phenomenon. The MOD has no operational requirement at present for a weapon specifically designed to create EMP effects.

  Military Personnel Overseas
  Mr. Shersby
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many British military personnel are stationed in the United States of America; how many are located in Washington DC; and what is the estimated cost to public funds.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  On 1 October 1992 there were 403 British military personnel based in the USA at an estimated cost of some £25 million in 1992–93; 154 are located in and around the Washington DC metropolitan area and of these 54 are directly attached to the British embassy.

  Army Personnel Centre
  Mr. Bayley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he is considering York currently as a potential location for some or all of the staff of the proposed integrated Army personnel centre; and when he intends to make a decision about which location or locations will be used for this centre.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  York is one of a number of sites under consideration. The report examining the case for establishing an Army personnel centre is due in November, and I hope to be able to take a decision, subject to consultation with the trade unions, as soon as possible thereafter.

  United Nations
  Sir Russell Johnston
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will list the countries where troops from member countries of the European Community are stationed under the mandate of the United Nations, stating which those countries are and the size and nature of the commitment.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The information requested is set out in the table. EC military contributions cover a wide variety of tasks including the provision of infantry, monitors and observers, and logistics, medical and communications units. The provision of more detailed information on individual contingents would involve disproportionate cost and effort.
  163

  EC military contributions to UN operations as at 30 September 1992 (numbers of personnel

  Cyprus

  Cambodia

  W. Sahara

  Iraq/Kuwait

  Croatia

  Bosnia*

  UNFICYP

  UNTAC

  MINURSO

  UNIKOM

  UNPROFOR I

  UNPROFOR II

  Belgium

  2

  620

  100

  Denmark

  352

  44

  900

  110

  France

  1,187

  30

  15

  2,619

  2,000

  Germany

  125

  Greece

  1

  Ireland

  8

  6

  Italy

  6

  Luxembourg

  40

  Netherlands

  1,244

  400

  Portugal†

  Spain

  2

  5

  400

  United Kingdom

  789

  121

  15

  15

  360

  2,400

  Lebanon

  Jerusalem

  El Salvador

  India/Pakistan

  Angola

  UNIFIL

  UNTS0

  ONUSAL

  UNMOG1P

  UNAVEM

  Belgium

  2

  2

  Denmark

  11

  7

  7

  France

  500

  24

  Germany

  Greece

  7

  Ireland

  755

  20

  8

  15

  Italy

  52

  8

  5

  8

  Luxembourg

  Netherlands

  15

  15

  Portugal2

  Spain

  15

  United Kingdom

  1Estimates of contributions pledged but not necessarily deployed.

  2Have offered a surgical team for UNPROFOR II. Precise numbers not yet known.

  Research Establishments
  Mr. Foulkes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will publish the full texts of announcements or statements made by the Ministry of Defence since 16 July in relation to the defence research establishments.

  Mr. Aitken
  I have asked the chief executive of the Defence Research Agency to place copies of all of his agency's press releases since 16 July in the Library of the House.

  Antares
  Mr. Foulkes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether Admiral in Chief Fleet has yet completed consideration of what further disciplinary action is necessary following the sinking of the Antares; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The commander in chief has completed his consideration of whether further disciplinary action is appropriate and in the light of this and legal advice has concluded that there are no grounds for disciplinary action against any other members of the crew of HMS Trenchant.

  Kuwaiti Tank Contract
  Mr. Foulkes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the decision by the Kuwaiti Government to award their tank contract to a US supplier; and what estimate he has made of the consequences to Vickers.

  Mr. Aitken
  My department has not received any official notification of a decision by the Government of Kuwait to buy M1A2 in preference to Challenger 2.

  Bosnia
  Mr. Foulkes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what is the current deployment of the forces assigned for convoy support in Bosnia.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The principal elements comprising the United Kingdom's contribution to UNPROFOR II, shortly to deploy to Bosnia, are 1st Battalion Cheshire Regiment, 2nd Battalion Royal Irish Regiment, 9th/12th Royal Lancers and 35 Engineer Regiment who are all based in Germany. The rest, the support element, are drawn from forces based in Germany and the United Kingdom.

  European Fighter Aircraft
  Mr. Foulkes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what is the current position regarding the involvement of the Governments of(a) Germany, (b) Italy and (c) Spain in the European fighter aircraft project; what further discussions he plans with the Defence Ministers of each of the three Governments; and when he expects to be able to report the full position to the House.

  Mr. Aitken
  All four partners are continuing to participate in the development phase of EFA which is proceeding according to the previously agreed programme except that, as agreed by the four Governments on 4 August, no new contracts are being let while studies into ways of reducing the cost of the programme are in progress. Germany has indicated that it does not intend to join the production phase of the project as presently proposed but it was not the intention in any case to take decisions on production until mid-1993 at the earliest.

  My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State plans to meet his German, Italian and Spanish colleagues

  165
  in December to discuss the results of the studies commissioned on 4 August. My right hon. and learned Friend will report to the House when there are any significant developments.

  Procurement
  Mr. Foulkes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will publish in the Official Report all statements made by the Ministry of Defence on defence procurement matters since 16 July.

  Mr. Aitken
  My Department has issued three press releases on defence procurement matters since 16 July:

  a. 21 July. on greater competition in defence procurement;

  b. 29 July, on the seeking of tenders for a new Ocean Survey vessel;

  c. 2 August, on a £300 million contract award to British Aerospace for Harrier training aircraft.

  I will place copies of these in the Library of the House.

  Trident
  Mr. Foulkes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when he expects to complete his consideration of the arrangements for refitting and servicing Trident submarines; if he will make the outcome public through an oral statement in the House; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Aitken
  Consideration of the options for the future arrangements for refitting Trident submarines is continuing. I hope that we shall be in a position to announce proposals before the end of the year. The House will be kept informed.

  North Channel Incident
  Mr. Foulkes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what information he has about the incident in the north channel involving the USS Sturgeon and the FV Lupina; what action is being taken in relation to this incident; and if he will make a statement

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The submarine USS Sturgeon snagged the nets of the FV Lupina at approximately 10.00 pm on 16 September while operating submerged in the Clyde submarine exercise areas. The submarine surfaced and contacted the fishing vessel to ensure that the boat and her crew were safe. There were no injuries and the fishing vessel was able to proceed under its own power. The submarine's presence had been notified under the SUBFACTS arrangements and the crew of the US submarine were briefed on the operating procedures to be observed when in the proximity of fishing vessels. The incident is currently being investigated by the US authorities. When their report has been completed, we will consider whether any changes to procedures, beyond those already discussed with the fishing industry in the fishing industry safety group, are warranted.

  Search and Rescue
  Mr. Foulkes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what is the result of his consideration of the search and rescue services in Scotland.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  I hope to make an announcement about the future provision of military search and rescue around the UK very shortly.

SOCIAL SECURITY

  Deregulation
  Mr. Sproat
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what financial provisions, and how much, he has made within his Department in order to look at the potential for deregulation of each of the regulatory measures for which he has responsibility.

  Mr. Burt
  The Department's deregulation activities are co-ordinated by a departmental deregulation unit which is staffed by a senior executive officer, with management and clerical support. In addition, other parts of the Department assess, as necessary, the impact on business of policy and procedures for which they are responsible and the potential for deregulation. Separate figures on the cost of this activity are not available.

  Disability Living Allowance
  Mr. Mike O'Brien
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security (1) what assessment he has made of the number of staff required to deal with the present level of claims for disability living allowance; and how many are actually in post;

  (2) how many staff have been transferred from the invalid care allowance unit to the disability living allowance unit to assist in dealing with claims since January 1991; and if he will list the dates of transfer and the number transferred on each of those dates;

  (3) whether staff transferred from the invalid care allowance unit to the disability living allowance unit to assist in dealing with claims will return to their previous post once the backlog has been reduced.

  Mr. Scott
  The administration of disability living allowance is a matter for Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency. He wrote to the hon. Member and copies will be placed in the Library and the Public Information Office.

  Mr. Mike O'Brien
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security (1) how many people in the Warwickshire, North constituency submitted claims for disability living allowance more than three months ago whose claims are still outstanding;

  (2) how many claims for disability living allowance from people living in north Warwickshire are still outstanding; and what is the anticipated average length of time before they will be determined.

  Mr. Scott
  I understand from Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency, that the information is not readily available and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Mr. Dewar
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many claims for(a) the care component, (b) the mobility component and (c) both components of disability living allowance have been received in each month to date; how many were decided in each month; and how many remained outstanding at the end of each month.

  Mr. Scott
  The information for(a) and (b) is not available in the form requested.
  167

  DLA claims received

  DLA claims decided1

  DLA claims outstanding

  February

  72,000

  2,000

  71,000

  March

  124,000

  15,000

  179,000

  April

  68,000

  22,000

  225,000

  May

  59,000

  32,000

  251,000

  June

  47,000

  48,000

  248,000

  July

  44,000

  66,000

  221,000

  August

  41,000

  71,000

  185,000

  September

  44,000

  78,000

  148,000

  Notes:

  1 Claims decided = awards plus refusals; does not include cases withdrawn, defective or otherwise disposed of. Includes new and top up claims. Rounded to nearest thousand.

  All figures are provisional and may be subject to amendment.

  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security (1) if he will list, in monthly order, the number of claimants still awaiting for their claims to be actioned by his Department's disability living allowance unit in Blackpool; and if he will make a statement;

  (2) if he will list by month for the last 12 months the number of claims that have been actioned by his Department's disability living allowance unit in Blackpool; and if he will make a statement;

  (3) if he will list for the last 12 months the average time taken by his Department's disability living allowance unit in Blackpool to complete a claim; and if he will make a statement.

  New claims—number of awards made

  February

  March

  April

  May

  June

  July

  August

  September

  1,100

  7,700

  8,800

  11,000

  15,400

  26,200

  25,900

  30,100

  Reasons for refusal186 per cent on disability grounds.

  13.5per cent on age grounds.

  0.5 per cent on other grounds.

  Rate of awards (February—September)

  Higher rate care only

  4,300

  Middle rate care only

  6,100

  Lower rate care only

  12,600

  Higher rate mobility only

  35,100

  Lower rate mobility only

  9,600

  Higher rate care and higher rate mobility

  14,400

  Top up claims from existing beneficiaries of AA and Mob A—number of awards made

  February

  March

  April

  May

  June

  July

  August

  September

  200

  2,600

  5,600

  11,800

  18,500

  18,700

  21,400

  19,700

  Reasons for refusal1 99. per cent. on disability grounds.

  0.5 per cent. on age/other grounds.

  Rate of awards (February—September)

  Higher rate care

  3,800

  Middle rate care

  13,000

  Lower rate care

  34,100

  Higher rate mobility

  5,300

  Lower rate mobility

  42,200

  Notes:

  1 Percentage of those cases where a reason for refusal was recorded.

  All figures have been rounded to nearest hundred. Figures should be treated as provisional and may be subject to amendment.

  Ms. Janet Anderson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will list, by parliamentary
  168
  Mr. Scott
  The administration of disability living allowance is a matter for Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency. He wrote to the hon. Member and copies will be placed in the Library and the Public Information Office.

  Mr. Dewar
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what percentage of claims for disability living allowance were cleared in 30 days in each month to date at each disability benefit centre; and what was the success rate for claims at each centre.

  Mr. Scott
  The administration of disability living allowance is a matter for Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency. He wrote to the hon. Member and copies will be placed in the Library and the Public Information Office.

  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will make it his policy to allow people of all ages to apply for disability living allowance.

  Mr. Scott
  We have no plans to amend the age conditions for claiming disability living allowance.

  Mr. Dewar
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many of the decisions on claims for each component of disability living allowance in each month to date were favourable; how many awards were made at each rate and, for those which were unfavourable, what were the reasons for refusal.

  Mr. Scott
  The information is as follows:

  Rate of awards (February—September)

  Higher rate care and lower rate mobility

  2,800

  Middle rate care and higher rate mobility

  7,800

  Middle rate care and lower rate mobility

  6,700

  Lower rate care and higher rate mobility

  12,900

  Lower rate care and lower rate mobility

  13,900

  constituency, the number of applications for disability living allowance so far approved under the new regulations and the number of applications still outstanding; and if he will indicate the average length of time between application and approval.

  Mr. Scott
  I understand from Mr Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency, that the information is not readily available and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Mr. Alfred Morris
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will make a statement on the meeting of the chief executive of the Benefits Agency about his
  169
  meeting in September with representatives of disability organisations to discuss their complaints about the administration of the disability living allowance; when he now expects the agency's backlog of work on the processing of claims to be cleared.

  Mr. Scott
  We do not receive formal reports of the meetings attended by Mr Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency. He wrote to the hon. Member about this and the administration of disability living allowance. Copies will be placed in the Library and the Public Information Office.

  Mr. Alfred Morris
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what study he has made of complaints to the Benefits Agency about delays in processing claims for the disability living allowance; how many of such complaints he and the agency received in each whole month since claims for the allowance were invited; what action he will be taking; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Scott
  The administration of disability living allowance is a matter for Mr Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency. He wrote to the hon. Member and copies will be placed in the Library and the Public Information office.

  Attendance and Mobility Allowance
  Mr. Mike O'Brien
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many claims for attendance or mobility allowance under review or subject to appeal have been waiting for up to 18 months to be determined.

  Mr. Scott
  I understand from Mr Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency, that the information is riot readily available and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Road Accident Compensation
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what efforts are being undertaken by his Department to ensure improved compensation settlements and speedy decisions on benefit entitlement for victims of road accidents.

  Miss Widdecombe
  Decisions on benefit entitlement are made as quickly as possible. The Benefits Agency customer charter defines the standards of service and the clearance times which its customers can expect. The agency is continually looking for ways to improve its service.

  The Department cannot intervene in settlement negotiations between the accident victim and the compensator.

  Social Fund
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what were the total numbers of maternity payments made from the social fund in Wales in 1989–90 and 1990–91; and what was the total value of the payments made in each year.

  Mr. Scott
  The administration of the social fund is a matter for Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency. He wrote to the hon. Member and copies will be placed in the Library and the Public Information Office.

  Lone Parents
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how much in total has been deducted from social security benefits paid to lone parents as a direct result of the new regulations on maintenance payments.

  Mr. Burt
  The new child support scheme and its associated regulations do not come into force until 5 April 1993.

  Lone Parents
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security (1) if he will make it his policy to strengthen regulations to prevent harassment of lone parents by social security officials to name and pursue absent parents for maintenance payments;

  (2) if he will make it his policy to replace the current benefits penalty on lone mothers refusing to co-operate with the Child Support Agency in detecting fathers with a small disregard in income support.

  Mr. Burt
  There is currently no requirement for a mother to name the father of her child when claiming benefits, though more than three-quarters of never-married mothers do so voluntarily. I have recently reinforced guidelines to social security offices to ensure best possible practice in relation to sensitive inquiries. From April 1993, when the Child Support Agency becomes operational, there will be a legal requirement for parents getting prescribed benefits to co-operate in obtaining maintenance for their children, unless compliance would risk causing harm or undue distress to the parent with care or to any child living with her.

  A disregard of maintenance, in income support, would not be helpful for the majority of lone parents, who want to work now or in the near future.

  We have no plans to change our policy on these matters.

  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will make it his policy to restore the real value of one-parent benefit to its 1990 level.

  Mr. Burt
  No. All lone parents gained at least £2 a week (extra) from last year's increase in child benefit, and from April this year we increased both child benefit and one parent benefit in line with prices.

  Child Benefit
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will make it his policy to restore the value of child benefit to its 1985 level.

  Mr. Burt
  No, although child benefit will of course remain the cornerstone of our policies for family support and will continue to be paid to all families in respect of all children.

  Benefit Offices, Manchester
  Mr. Bennett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security (1) if he will list which of his Department's benefit offices in Greater Manchester have underspent their budgets so far this year for(a) emergency payments and (b) emergency loans; and which have overspent;

  (2) which benefit offices in Greater Manchester consider that being forced out of the family home by domestic

  171
  violence is sufficiently high a priority to warrant the payment of a grant to provide furniture to establish a new home; and which have set criteria which restrict any help in such circumstances to a loan.

  Mr. Scott
  The administration of the social fund is a matter for Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency. He wrote to the hon. Member and copies will be placed in the Library and the Public Information Office.

  Income Support
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what is the total number of people over the age of 60 years in Wales who are currently in receipt of income support.

  Mr. Burt
  The number of claimants and their partners over age 60 receiving income support in Wales is 98,000.

  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many young people between the ages of 18 years and 24 years and living away from home are currently in receipt of the full over 25 years rate of income support.

  Mr. Burt
  I refer the hon. Member to my reply to him on 2 June at col.483.

  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many, and what percentage, of working claimants have had their income support withdrawn as a consequence of the introduction of the 16-hour rule in (a) Ebbw Vale benefit office, (b) Abertillery benefit office, (c) Wales and (d) England.

  Mr. Burt
  No one who was working, or whose partner was working, between 16 and 24 hours a week and receiving income support at the point of change has had that benefit withdrawn as a consequence of the change in the hours threshold in income support and family credit, unless he has claimed family credit and receives more than he did from income support.

  Vaccine Damage
  Dr. Twinn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what plans he has to introduce proposals to amend the Vaccine Damage Payments Act 1979 to allow discretion in awarding payments outside the established time limits to those who were not aware of the provisions of the Act.

  Mr. Scott
  We have no plans to do so. The time limits in the scheme are already generous. Claims can be made within the six years following vaccination or, in the case of a child vaccinated before the age of two, the six years following the second birthday. To extend the time limits for claiming would increase the problems of obtaining medical and other relevant evidence, making it more difficult to confirm entitlement.

  Invalidity Benefit
  Mr. Dewar
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what research on invalidity benefit is being carried out by or for his Department; and when it is due for completion.
  172
  Mr. Scott
  The Department has commissioned a programme of research about the growth in the numbers of people receiving invalidity benefit. The programme consists of a number of related studies: a small scale preliminary study of invalidity benefit recipients and GPs; large scale surveys of current recipients and new claimants; a comparative study of the growth of incapacity benefit caseloads in the UK and other countries; and an in-depth study of the GP's role in relation to the benefit. Field work for some of these studies was completed earlier in the year; other elements are expected to be completed in the course of 1993.

  Cold Weather Payments
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many households in the constituency of Caernarfon qualify for payments under the cold weather payments scheme.

  Mr. Scott
  The administration of the social fund is a matter for Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency. He wrote to the hon. Member with such information as is available and copies will be placed in the Library and the Public Information Office.

  Mr. Burden
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many households in Birmingham, Northfield qualify for payments under the cold weather payments scheme.

  Mr. Scott
  The administration of the Social Fund is a matter for Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency. He wrote to the hon. Member with such information as is available and copies will be placed in the Library and the Public Information Office.

  Ms. Estelle Morris
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many householders in the Birmingham, Yardley constituency qualify for payments under the cold weather payments scheme.

  Mr. Scott
  The administration of the social fund is a matter for Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency. He wrote to the hon. Member with such information as is available and copies will be placed in the Library and the Public Information Office.

  Benefits, Doncaster
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will list for each of the benefits for which his Department is responsible in the Doncaster area during the current 12 months, the percentage of claimants who were successful in their claim; and if he will give comparative figures for(a) 24 months, (b) 36 months and (c) 48 months ago.

  Mr. Burt
  The administration of benefits is a matter for Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency. He wrote to the hon. Member with such information as is available and copies will be placed in the Library.

  Disability Payments
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will make it his policy to grant payments of severe disability income support premiums regardless of whether the claimant is living alone.
  173
  Mr. Burt
  No. The disability or higher pensioner premiums are included in the calculation of income support, housing benefit or community charge benefit for disabled people, whether or not they live alone. The severe disability premium is, and always has been, intended to give additional help to those severely disabled people who, because they live independently and do not have a carer receiving invalid care allowance, are most likely to need to rely on bought-in care. We have no plans to change this policy.

  Mr. Dewar
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what is the estimated cost for 1992–93 of(a) disability living allowance and (b) disability working allowance, respectively.

  Mr. Scott
  The estimated costs were published in the 1992 departmental report. These figures will be revised in due course to reflect actual experience of the new benefits.

  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many claims for(a) disability working allowance and (b) disability living allowance received from claimants in Wales are still awaiting a decision; what is the average delay in processing such claims; and what are the comparable figures for England and Scotland.

  Mr. Scott
  The administration of disability working allowance and disability living allowance are a matter for Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency. He wrote to the hon. Member and copies will be placed in the Library and the Public Information Office.

  March

  April

  May

  June

  July

  August

  September

  Awards made

  162

  314

  317

  295

  296

  284

  446

  Claims disallowed

  3,046

  3,534

  2,349

  2,402

  2,545

  1,675

  1,300

  The information requested about reasons for refusal is extracted from an analysis of weekly data and converted to monthly periods:

  March

  April

  May

  June

  July

  August

  September

  Not in remunerative work

  1,669

  2,253

  1,339

  1,362

  1,728

  984

  684

  Income exceeds DWA level

  118

  314

  268

  274

  379

  245

  253

  No qualifying benefit

  578

  1,289

  548

  453

  632

  395

  393

  Other reasons

  287

  189

  75

  69

  82

  51

  60

  Mr. Dewar
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many claims for disability working allowance have been received in each month to date; how many were

  March

  April

  May

  June

  July

  August

  September

  Claims received

  4,153

  4,124

  2,570

  2,700

  2,344

  2,081

  2,085

  Claims decided

  3,208

  3,848

  2,666

  2,697

  2,841

  1,959

  1,746

  Claims outstanding

  870

  1,011

  834

  743

  678

  693

  758

  The claims outstanding at the end of each month are awaiting the outcome of further enquiries about the claim; there have been no delays in dealing with claims.

  Information was not available before the benefit commenced to make a reliable estimate of the number of claims which might be expected.
  174
  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many claims for(a) disability working allowance and (b) disability living allowance have been received from residents in Blaenau Gwent; if he will publish a breakdown of how many of these claims have resulted in an award, been unsuccessful or are still awaiting a decision; and how many awards are actually in payment.

  Mr. Scott
  I understand from Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency, that the information is not readily available and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many people in(a) Blaenau Gwent and (b) Wales have received payments from the disabled living fund.

  Mr. Scott
  Information is not available in the form requested. However, on 6 October the independent living fund had 97 clients in Gwent and 877 in Wales as a whole.

  Disability Working Allowance
  Mr. Dewar
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many of the decisions on claims for disability working allowance in each month to date, were favourable; and for those which were unfavourable, what were the reasons for refusal.

  Mr. Scott
  The information requested on decisions for each month is as follows:

  decided in each month; how many remained outstanding at the end of each month; and what were the comparable numbers expected before the benefit commenced.

  Mr. Scott
  The information requested for each month is as follows:

  Pensions
  Mr. Foulkes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what plans he has to consult further on the equalisation of the state pension age for men and women; and if he will indicate the expected timetable for progress.

  Miss Widdecombe
  We have been meeting the representatives of various interested organisations and
  175
  while doing so have continued to receive representations which arrived after the consultation period finished on June 30. After considering the views expressed, we will announce our proposals in due course.

  Ms. Abbott
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security (1) if he will introduce proposals to amend the Social Security Act 1975 relating specifically to the Persons Abroad Regulations SI 1975/563 so that those of ethnic minority backgrounds who leave Britain to live abroad permanently have their pensions index-linked;

  (2) if he will make a statement concerning the countries excluded from index-linked pension increases to individuals.

  Miss Widdecombe
  We have no plans to amend the regulations in the way suggested. Annual pension increases are payable to British pensioners living in 32 countries outside Great Britain. We have no plans to extend payment of such increases to pensioners living elsewhere.

  Severe Hardship Payments
  Mr. Dobson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many severe hardship payments were awarded to young people(a) living at home with their parents and (b) living away from home, in each year since 1988–89.

  Mr. Burt
  The available information is in the table. Details of housing status were first collected from December 1990.

  Awards of Severe Hardship

  at home

  away from home

  December 1990—March 1991

  1,440

  8,387

  April 1991—March 1992

  11,548

  43,289

  April 1992—August 1992

  10,388

  26,119

  Source: Severe Hardship Claims Unit

  Child Support
  Mr. Chisholm
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if guidelines will be given to social security officers to ensure that exemptions from naming fathers under the Child Support Act 1991 are granted with consistency.

  Mr. Burt
  Guidance and training will be given.

  Departmental Staff
  Mrs. Beckett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what were the staffing levels in his Department's offices in(a) Mid-Derbyshire and (b) South Derbyshire in 1990–91 and 1991–92 and what they will be in 1992–93, broken down by benefit type and by grade of staff.

  Mr. Burt
  The resourcing of offices are matters for Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency, Miss Ann Chant, the chief executive of the Contributions Agency and Ms. Ros Heppelwhite, the chief executive of the child support unit. I have asked Mr. Michael Bichard to reply.

  Christmas Bonus
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what the level of the Christmas bonus would have been in 1992 if it had been increased annually at(a) the rate of increase in prices and (b) the rate of increase in earnings.

  Miss Widdecombe
  The Christmas bonus, which is paid regardless of need and which no Government have increased, would now be worth £62.30 had it been increased annually since 1972 in line with prices; £87.90 had it been increased annually in line with average earnings.

  Fraud
  Ms. Glenda Jackson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many people were successfully prosecuted for social security fraud in the London borough of Camden between January and December 1991.

  Miss Widdecombe
  The investigation of social security benefit fraud is a matter for Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency. He wrote to the hon. Member and copies will be placed in the Library and the Public Information Office.

  Ms. Glenda Jackson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what definitions he intends to use and what guidelines he intends to produce to enable his Department's staff to distinguish between a scrounger and a genuine social security claimant.

  Mr. Burt
  Parliament has laid down the conditions of entitlement to benefit. Decisions on entitlement to benefit are taken by independent adjudication officers. It is for the chief adjudication officer, rather than the Secretary of State, to advise how they should interpret the legislation.

  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what are the totals of money recovered as a result of social security fraud investigations in the past 10 years; and what sums were recovered in each of the past 10 years expressed as a percentage of the numbers of staff employed to detect fraud.

  Miss Widdecombe
  The information requested is not held. However, the Benefits Agency fraud investigations in 1991–92 employed 2,853 staff at a cost of £62.7 million and detected fraud to the estimated value of £416 million.

  Child Benefit
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security, whether he will publish tables similar to those in his answer of 11 May,Official Report, columns 43–44, showing the combined value of child benefit and child dependency increases, including figures for April 1992 and showing equivalent values at April 1992 instead of 1991 prices.

  Mr. Burt
  The information is in the tables.
  177

  National insurance widows and invalidity pensioners

  A

  B

  C

  D

  E

  Uprating date

  Rate of child benefit plus child dependency increases

  Equivalent value of column B amounts at April 1992 prices

  Gross male weekly average earnings, with amounts in column B as percentage

  Equivalent weekly earnings net of income tax and National Insurance contributions, with amounts in column B as percentage

  Single person

  Married couple

  £

  £

  £

  Per cent.

  £

  Per cent.

  £

  Per cent.

  November 1979

  11.10

  25.57

  114.10

  (9.7)

  79.90

  (13.9)

  83.60

  (13.3)

  November 1980

  12.25

  24.47

  135.10

  (9.1)

  93.40

  (13.1)

  97.80

  (12.5)

  November 1981

  12.95

  23.11

  149.50

  (8.7)

  101.00

  (12.8)

  105.40

  (12.3)

  November 1982

  13.80

  23.17

  160.60

  (8.6)

  107.40

  (12.8)

  112.50

  (12.3)

  November 1983

  14.10

  22.58

  172.40

  (8.2)

  115.50

  (12.2)

  121.30

  11.6

  November 1984

  14.50

  22.13

  187.40

  (7.7)

  125.90

  (11.5)

  132.50

  (10.9)

  November 1985

  15.05

  21.78

  199.50

  (7.5)

  134.40

  (11.2)

  141.60

  (10.6)

  July 1986

  15.15

  21.56

  210.90

  (7.2)

  143.80

  (10.5)

  151.20

  (10.0)

  April 1987

  15.30

  20.86

  224.00

  (6.8)

  155.90

  (9.8)

  163.00

  (9.4)

  April 1988

  15.65

  20.53

  245.80

  (6.4)

  174.80

  (9.0)

  182.00

  (8.6)

  April 1989

  16.20

  19.67

  269.50

  (6.0)

  191.30

  (8.5)

  198.90

  (8.1)

  April 1990

  16.90

  18.75

  295.60

  (5.7)

  212.80

  (7.9)

  221.10

  (7.6)

  April 1991

  117.95

  18.72

  318.90

  (5.6)

  230.00

  (7.8)

  238.30

  (7.5)

  October 1991

  218.95

  19.47

  330.00

  (5.7)

  237.20

  (8.0)

  245.50

  (7.7)

  October 1991

  318.20

  18.70

  330.00

  (5.5)

  237.20

  (7.7)

  245.50

  (7.4)

  April 1992

  219.40

  19.40

  337.50

  (5.7)

  235.30

  (8.2)

  301.30

  (6.4)

  April 1992

  318.65

  18.65

  337.50

  (5.5)

  235.30

  (7.9)

  301.30

  (6.2)

  1 Where the new higher rate of child benefit for the eldest qualifying child applied, the child dependency increase was adjusted so that the total level of support remained the same for all children.

  2 Rate for the eldest or only child.

  3 Rate for each other child.

  War widows

  A

  B

  C

  D

  E

  Uprating date

  Rate of child benefit plus war widow's child's allowance

  Equivalent value of column B amounts at April 1992 prices

  Gross male weekly average earnings, with amounts in column B as percentage

  Equivalent weekly earnings net of income tax and National Insurance contributions, with amounts in column B as percentage

  Single person

  Married couple

  £

  £

  £

  Per cent.

  £

  Per cent.

  £

  Per cent.

  November 1979

  14.00

  32.25

  114.10

  (12.3)

  79.90

  (17.5)

  83.60

  (16.7)

  November 1980

  15.35

  30.66

  135.10

  (11.4)

  93.40

  (16.4)

  97.80

  (15.7)

  November 1981

  16.10

  28.73

  149.50

  (10.8)

  101.00

  (15.9)

  105.40

  (15.3)

  November 1982

  17.10

  28.71

  160.60

  (10.6)

  107.40

  (15.9)

  112.50

  (15.2)

  November 1983

  17.45

  27.95

  172.40

  (10.1)

  115.50

  (15.1)

  121.30

  (14.4)

  November 1984

  17.90

  27.32

  187.40

  (9.6)

  125.90

  (14.2)

  132.50

  (13.5)

  November 1985

  18.55

  26.84

  199.50

  (9.3)

  134.40

  (13.8)

  141.60

  (13.1)

  July 1986

  18.65

  26.55

  210.90

  (8.8)

  143.80

  (13.0)

  151.20

  (12.3)

  April 1987

  18.85

  25.70

  224.00

  (8.4)

  155.90

  (12.1)

  163.00

  (11.6)

  April 1988

  19.25

  25.25

  245.80

  (7.8)

  174.80

  (11.0)

  182.00

  (10.6)

  April 1989

  19.85

  24.10

  269.50

  (7.4)

  191.30

  (10.4)

  198.90

  (10.0)

  April 1990

  20.65

  22.91

  295.60

  (7.0)

  212.80

  (9.7)

  221.10

  (9.3)

  April 1991

  121–90

  22.84

  318.90

  (6.9)

  230.00

  (9.5)

  238.30

  (9.2)

  October 1991

  222.90

  23.53

  330.00

  (6.9)

  237.20

  (9.7)

  245.50

  (9.3)

  October 1991

  322.15

  22.76

  333.00

  (6.7)

  237.20

  (9.3)

  245.50

  (9.0)

  April 1992

  223.40

  23.40

  337.50

  (6.9)

  235.30

  (9.9)

  301.30

  (7.8)

  April 1992

  322.65

  22.65

  337.50

  (6.7)

  235.30

  (9.6)

  301.30

  (7.5)

  1 Where the new higher rate of child benefit for the eldest qualifying child applied, the war widow's child's allowance was adjusted so that the total level of support remained the same for all children.

  2 Rate for the eldest or only child.

  3 Rate for each other child.

  Benefits
  Mr. Alfred Morris
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what plans he has to substitute selectivity for the principle of universality as the basis for payment of any social security benefits; and if he will make a statement.

  Miss Widdecombe
  None.

NATIONAL FINANCE

  Ecu Loan
  Ms. Harman
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what was the ecu worth in sterling at the time that the 10 billion ecu loan was negotiated.
  179
  Mr. Nelson
  The revolving credit facility agreed on 4 September was for the equivalent of ecu 5 billion. At the date of the agreement the closing ecu: sterling market rate was 1.3919 to the pound.

  Currency Reserves
  Ms. Harman
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what was the level of the currency reserves on(a) 14 September and (b) 18 September.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what was the level of currency reserves on(a) 14 September and (b) 16 September.

  Mr. Winnick
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much was in the foreign reserves on 14, 15, 16 and 17 September.

  Mr. Nelson
  The level of the United Kingdom's foreign exchange reserves at the end of each month are published on the second working day of the next month. The level at the end of September was published on Friday 2 October. There are no plans to publish these figures more frequently.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer who audits the use of foreign exchange reserves; and when they will report on the use of the funds during the period 14 to 16 September.

  Mr. Nelson
  Transactions affecting the United Kingdom foreign exchange reserves are made through the exchange equalisation account. The EEA is audited by the National Audit Office. The account is not published but is certified each year by the Comptroller and Auditor General, when the accounts of the Consolidated Fund and the National Loan Fund are published.

  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will give the gain/loss from the reserves for each month from April and the total up to and including 16 September.

  Mr. Nelson
  The overall change in the level of the United Kingdom foreign exchange reserves at the end of each month between April and September 1992 is given in the table:

  1992

  $ millions

  April

  +748

  May

  +29

  June

  -104

  July

  +50

  August

  -1,300

  September

  -1,773

  There are no plans to publish these figures more frequently.

  Foreign Exchange Markets
  Ms. Harman
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will now make it his practice to answer questions on the extent to which it has intervened in the foreign exchange markets in support of its exchange rate objectives.

  Mr. Nelson
  No.

  Sterling
  Ms. Harman
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what assessment the Treasury has made as to the causes of the recent pressure on sterling and the degree to which it reflected (a) speculation and (b) underlying economic factors.

  Mr. Nelson
  The main underlying cause of tensions in the ERM has been the persistence of high interest rates in Germany, imposed to counter the inflationary effects of reunification, combined with the lowest interest rates in 30 years in the USA. Speculation, in the lead-up to the French referendum, caused these tensions to come to a head on 16 September.

  Ms. Harman
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will now accept the recommendations of Session 1988–89 from the third report of the Treasury and Civil Service Committee on international monetary coordination (HC 384) about making public the amount of the intervention, gains and losses to the United Kingdom Exchequer of measures to support the pound sterling.

  Mr. Nelson
  No.

  ECOFIN
  Ms. Harman
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what was discussed at the last meeting of ECOFIN; and if he will make a statement.

  Sir John Cope
  The Economic and Finance Council met twice in formal session during the Recess. The meeting on 27 July was reported to the House by means of a report deposited in the Library. The Council also met on 28 September in Brussels with the Chancellor presiding. I represented the United Kingdom. Members of the Council also met informally in Bath on 4 to 6 September.

  On 28 September, the Council discussed the future financing of the Community. A majority of member states made clear that they continued to believe that the Commission's proposals were excessive and the Council was close to a consensus on the need to make cuts in the Commission's proposals for internal spending and for administration. But wide divergences of opinion remain on major items such as agriculture, cohesion, the structure of own resources, and thus the overall level of spending. There was also some discussion of the Commission's report on the United Kingdom abatement. I made clear that we would not accept any adverse change to the abatement.

  The Council agreed to establish a working group of officials with the aim of enhancing the fight against fraud against the Community budget and to report back to ECOFIN in November. The Council also set a work programme for officials to examine the proposed carbon/energy tax and to report back to ECOFIN in December.

  A balance of payments loan to Bulgaria was also discussed but without agreement.

  The Council also discussed recent monetary events in preparation for the Special European Council.

  Currency
  Ms. Harman
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what matters relating to currency he discussed at the meeting he attended in Brussels on 12 and 13 September.
  181
  Mr. Nelson
  The Chancellor did not attend any meetings in Brussels on 12 and 13 September.

  Privatisation
  Mr. Keith Hill
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much money was spent on advertising of privatisation sales for each sale since 1979.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The table shows the cost to the Government of advertising in each privatisation by flotation or secondary share sale since BT. Information on the advertising costs of earlier sales is not held centrally and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Advertising costs in privatisations

  £ million

  Share Offer

  Year

  Advertising cost (ex. VAT)

  BT

  1984

  9.7

  Britoil

  1985

  3.0

  Cable & Wireless

  1985

  2.2

  British Aerospace

  1985

  1.7

  British Gas

  1986

  21.4

  British Airways

  1987

  2.8

  Rolls-Royce

  1987

  1.6

  BAA

  1987

  4.9

  BP

  1987

  18.3

  British Steel

  1988

  4.9

  Shareholdings1 in Privatised and Former Government-Controlled Companies

  Size of share register

  Company

  Date of Privatisation

  Initial

  Highest since Privatisation3

  Current

  Proportion of shares retained by HMG

  Proportion and dates of subsequent disposals

  percentage

  percentage

  British Petroleum

  December 19772

  n/a

  550,821 (31 Dec 91)

  51

  4 5.17/Nov 79: 7.12/ Sep 83: 31.5/Sep87: 0.09/ Oct 90 on 1.1.91 HMG held about 1.88

  British Aerospace

  February 1981

  27,179

  120,200 (Dec 86)

  87,700 (31 Dec 91)

  48.43

  48.43/10.5.85

  Cable and Wireless

  October 1981

  27,320

  210,994 (31 Mar 86)

  166,179 (31 Mar 90)

  50.64

  27.54/Nov83: 23.1/ Dec 85

  Amersham International

  February 1982

  10,051

  5,243 (29 May 92)

  nil

  NFC

  February 1982

  10,300

  60,000 (Feb 92)

  nil

  Britoil

  November 1982

  37,257

  245,556 (31 Dec 85)

  owned by BP

  49.0

  49.0/8.8.85

  Associated British Ports

  February 1983

  37,205

  14,694 (26 June 92)

  48.5

  48.5/17.4.84

  Enterprise Oil

  June 1984

  13,695

  14,166 (June 85)

  10,811 (31 Dec 90)

  nil

  Jaguar

  July 1984

  125,000

  owned by Ford

  nil5

  BT

  November 1984

  2,139,520

  2,931,570 (1 Feb 92)

  2,758,996 (26 Aug 92)

  49.8

  0.8/Dec 87: 25.9/ Nov9I

  British Gas

  December 1986

  4,407,079

  2,285,325 (31 Mar 91)

  3.3

  1.6/Jan90: 1.6/July 90

  British Airways

  February 1987

  1.2m

  314,039 (15 May 90)

  2.5

  1.0/June87: 1.0/ March 90

  Rolls-Royce

  May 1987

  1,988,966

  640,055 (31 Dec 90)

  0.4

  0.4 sold during 1987

  BAA

  July 1987

  2,187,500

  798,643 (1 June 90)

  4.36

  1.42/Aug 90

  British Steel

  December 1988

  650,553

  335,224 (30 Mar 91)

  0.05

  0.04 disposed of during 1989. On 12.11.90 HMG held about 0.002

  Water and Sewerage Companies

  December 1989

  2.65m6

  l,106,5647 (27 June 91)

  1.62

  Regional Electricity Companies

  December 1990

  8.86m6

  2,975,1197 (7 Aug 92)

  n/a

  182

  Share Offer

  Year

  Advertising cost (ex. VAT)

  Water

  1989

  15.3

  Regional Electricity Companies

  1990

  14.2

  Generating Companies

  1991

  5.6

  Scottish Electricity Companies

  1991

  5.3

  BT

  1991

  17.1

  Mr. Keith Hill
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what was the total amount of debt written off in each privatisation and sale of Government assets since 1979 for each company privatised.

  Mr. Dorrell
  I refer the hon. Member to the Chancellor of the Exchequer's answer of 3 March,Official Report, col. 124.

  Mr. Keith Hill
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the current number of shareholdings in each of the companies privatised since 1979.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The table shows the number of shareholdings in each of the companies privatised since 1979. Where Her Majesty's Government retained a shareholding on privatisation, together with the size and date of any subsequent share disposals, this has also been shown.
  183

  Size of share register

  Company

  Date of Privatisation

  Initial

  Highest since Privatisation3

  Current

  Proportion of shares retained by HMG percentage

  Proportion and dates of subsequent disposals percentage

  Generating Companies

  March 1991

  1.91m8

  1.7m7(Jan 92)

  40

  Scottish Electricity Companies

  June 1991

  1.81m9

  1.6m7(June 92)

  3.5

  1 For single company privatisations, these figures are not an exact guide to the number of shareholders because some shareholdings are held jointly in more than one name (e.g., for members of employee share schemes only the trustees are shown on share registers).

  2 HM Government obtained a majority holding in 1914 but this never reached 100 per cent. The 1977 sale is shown as the first disposal of recent times.

  3 Where the largest register of shareholdings was not immediately following privatisation (this usually followed a secondary offer).

  4 These proportions do not sum to 51 per cent because of rights issues.

  5 Subsidiary of BL plc.

  6 The offer allowed for holdings by individuals in any or all of the companies in the offer and therefore holders may appear on more than one register.

  7 Shareholders may appear on the register of more than one company.

  8 The offer required pulic applicants to apply for shares in both companies and the figure shown is that of allocations in the offer.

  9 The offer required non-customer public applicants to apply for shares in both companies and the figure shown is that of allocations in the offer.

  Mr. Keith Hill
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will give a breakdown of administrative costs set out in a similar manner to that in his answer to the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Burns) of 5 March,Official Report, column 244, for the share offers relating to (a) British Gas, (b) the electricity generating companies, (c) the electricity distribution companies, (d) the two Scottish electricity companies and (e) the water companies.

  Mr. Dorrell
  I refer the hon. Member to page 18 of the report by the National Audit Office on the sale of British Gas (House of Commons paper 22 published June 1987) and to the replies given by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy on 31 January 1992 at column 723; by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland on 31 January 1992 at column 722; and by my hon. Friend the Minister for the Environment on 3 April at column 570–71.

  European Central Bank
  Mr. Cash
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what measures will he required to ensure uniformity of European central bank notes under article 16 of the protocol to the Maastricht treaty on European central banks.

  Mr. Nelson
  There is no requirement under article 16 for uniformity of bank notes, whether issued by the European central hank or other banks within the Community. Article 16 requires the ECB to respect as far as possible existing practices regarding the issue and design of bank notes.

  Mr. Cash
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what rules and practices the Government propose to change in the field of statistical collection pursuant to article 5 of the protocol to the Maastricht treaty relating to European central banks; and what will be the role of the European central bank.

  Mr. Nelson
  No proposals have yet been made to ministers on the statistical requirements relating to the role of the European central bank. The role of the ECB in this area would be as set out in Article 5 of the protocol to the treaty on the statute of the European system of central banks and the European central bank.
  184
  Mr. Cash
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what plans the Government have to make the Bank of England independent under article 7 of the protocol to the Maastricht treaty relating to European central banks.

  Mr. Nelson
  The Government have no plans at present to make the Bank of England independent under article 7 of the protocol to the Maastricht treaty setting out the statute for the European central banks. According to the protocol to the Maastricht treaty on certain provisions relating to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, article 7 would only apply to the United Kingdom if, at some future date, the United Kingdom were to notify the Council of Ministers that it wished to move to stage 3 of the European economic and monetary union.

  Deregulation
  Mr. Sproat
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what financial provisions, and how much, he has made within his Department in order to look at the potential for deregulation of each of the regulatory measures for which he has responsibility.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The Chancellor's departments have a number of staff dedicated to looking at the potential for deregulation throughout the economy. These total 11 at an annual salary cost of about £340,000. In addition, other staff also spend some of their time working on deregulation issues as part of their duties. It is therefore not possible to quantify exactly the total effort devoted to this subject.

  Developing Countries (Debt Relief)
  Mrs. Clwyd
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) what additional foreign exchange savings would accrue to developing countries if the Trinidad terms originally proposed by the Prime Minister had been accepted by the Paris club compared to the terms currently in use;

  (2) what foreign exchange savings have been achieved by developing countries whose debt has been processed by the Paris club under the Trinidad terms.

  Mr. Nelson
  The debt reduction provided under Trinidad terms is assessed in present value terms and this
  185
  cannot he reliably translated into estimates of foreign exchange earnings. Trinidad terms are designed to deliver up to 50 per cent. reduction in the present value of debts consolidated under the agreements. It is not possible to anticipate the outcome of consideration of reduction, of the whole stock of debt, which creditors are committed to undertake provided that certain conditions are met.

  The debt relief agreed to by creditors at the Paris Club is informed by and related to an independent estimate of the future foreign exchange financing needs of individual debtors.

  Mrs. Clwyd
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will list, for each country benefiting from debt: relief under the Trinidad terms,(a) how the debt to be dealt with is calculated, (b) the percentage of total external debt of each country that this constitutes and (c) the level of relief and rescheduling that has been given.

  Mr. Nelson
  The details of individual debtors' positions are confidential to the country concerned. Debts eligible for Trinidad terms debt reduction are medium and long term bilateral official debt which are contracted before a specified cut-off date and which have not previously been subject to a concessional debt restructuring agreement at the Paris Club. The amount of relief provided is dependent upon the distribution of debt between individual creditors and the method of debt relief chosen by each creditor.

  Mrs. Clwyd
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many developing countries have benefited from the Trinidad debt relief terms; which countries are due to be dealt with by the Paris Club; and when such action will be taken.

  Mr. Nelson
  Eight countries have so far benefited from Trinidad terms debt reduction at the Paris Club. The future programme of the Paris Club is driven by requests from the debtor countries.

  Developmental Public Bodies
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he has yet issued guidance to Departments about the general responsibilities of the boards of new developmental public bodies, pursuant to the note to the Public Accounts Committee [PAC 69] dated 28 February; and if he will place a copy in the Library.

  Mr. Dorrell
  Some guidance on the responsibilities of boards of non-departmental public bodies (NDP Bs) is already contained in the recently revised NDPB Guide for Departments. A copy has been placed in the Library. As noted in the Treasury minute, on the 11th report Of the Public Accounts Committee, which is being laid before Parliament today, it is proposed to provide additional guidance shortly. The Treasury is currently consulting departments on content and coverage.

  Canary Wharf
  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many Treasury, Inland Revenue and Customs and Excise jobs he proposes to move to Canary Wharf.

  Mr. Dorrell
  Customs and Excise plans to relocate the 130 staff in its Straford excise and VAT office to Docklands, but not necessarily Canary Wharf, in August 1993.

  London Transport
  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will estimate the net effect on the public sector borrowing requirement of £100 million extra funding of capital investment by London Transport, including tax receipts, national insurance payments, and reductions in social security payments; and if he will estimate any crowding out.

  Mr. Portillo
  It is not possible to provide reliable estimates of the net effects.

  Public Service Pensions
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will specify which categories of public servants and service men with preserved pension rights have the right to transfer to personal pension plans and indicate from which earliest date of leaving public service employment that entitlement stands.

  Mr. Nelson
  All former public servants and members of the armed forces whose last day of pensionable service was on or after 1 January 1986 may transfer their preserved public service pension rights to an appropriate personal pension plan.

  Those in post on or after 6 April 1988 who choose to opt out of their occupational pension scheme without leaving public service employment or the armed forces may transfer their preserved rights in respect of service from 6 April 1988 to an appropriate personal pension plan. If they subsequently leave the public service or the armed forces, they may transfer the value of any benefits remaining in their occupational scheme to an appropriate personal pension plan.

  These arrangements are fully in accordance with the Social Security Acts 1985 and 1986.

  Civil Servants
  Mr. Alfred Morris
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will publish a table giving the number of officials in the top four grades of the civil service in the Department of Trade and Industry, the Ministry of Defence, the Treasury, the Foreign Office, Inland Revenue, the Home Office and the Departments of the Environment, Employment, Transport, Health, Social Security and Education, and the number and percentage in each case from Oxbridge colleges and the number of women and of disabled people in each case.

  Mr. Lamont
  The table gives the total number of staff and the number of women in grades 1–4 in the selected Departments. Complete information relating to colleges attended and the number of disabled people in these grades is not held centrally.

  Grades 1–4 staff in post at 1 April 1992, by selected department

  Total

  Women

  Department of Trade and Industry

  62

  6

  Ministry of Defence

  103

  3

  HM Treasury

  39

  2

  Foreign and Commonwealth Office

  143

  6

  Inland Revenue

  65

  —

  Home Office

  42

  9

  Department of the Environment

  77

  8

  Department of Employment

  24

  2

  Department of Transport

  42

  —

  187

  Total

  Women

  Department of Health

  66

  18

  Department of Social Security

  31

  6

  Department of Education and Science

  31

  3

  Ministry Objectives
  Mr. Sproat
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether each division and branch in the Treasury is given individual specific annual objectives along the lines of those specified in the MINIM system in the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.

  Mr. Nelson
  Although the Treasury has no equivalent to MAFF's MINIM system, the Treasury's internal annual resource allocation system requires each group and division to set objectives for their future work programmes. These objectives are drawn up within the framework of the roles and strategic objectives for the department as a whole and which are published on pages 14 to 21 of the 1992 Departmental Report for the Chancellor's Departments—CM 1918.

  Mr. Cash
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how statistics relating to the consumer price index of the member states of the European Community are to be adjusted so as to take into account differences in national definitions under the protocol of the convergence criteria referred to in article 109j of the treaty establishing the European Community.

  Mr. Nelson
  The European Community Statistical Office (Eurostat) is planning to set up a working party of representatives of member states statistical offices to consider the technical issues involved in producing harmonised consumer price indices.

  Tilbury/Gravesend Ferry
  Mr. Mackinlay
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will, in accordance with section 1(4) of the Crown Estate Act 1961, use his good offices to determine the dispute about the ancient rights of ferry between Tilbury and Gravesend, between the Crown Estate Commissioners and Whitehorse Ferries Ltd.; and if he will direct the restoration and continuation of the service until such times as the dispute has been resolved.

  Mr. Lamont
  The service was restored by Whitehorse Ferries Ltd. within a few days and I understand that the Crown Estate Commissioners and Whitehorse Ferries Ltd. reached agreement on the ferry franchise in early August.

  Crown Estate Commissioners
  Mr. Mackinlay
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if the Crown Estate Commissioners are subject to value added tax in respect of all revenues they accrue and transactions they enter into from leases, licences and rents relating to property they control and manage in respect of the Crown estate.

  Mr. Lamont
  The Crown Estate Commissioners are registered for value added tax for their business activities. They account for VAT according to the normal rules, which would include transactions involving land and property.

  VAT
  Mr. Chisholm
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if it remains Government policy to retain permanently the ability to apply a zero rate of VAT to books, newspapers and periodicals.

  Sir John Cope
  Yes. The Government remain committed to the permanent retention of the right to maintain all existing zero rates.

  Third-world Debt
  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the total tax relief for banks against written-off third-world debt in each of the last five years; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Dorrell
  Provisions for doubtful sovereign debt by banks operating in the United Kingdom are estimated to have reduced corporation tax receipts in the last five years by the following amounts:

  £ million

  1987–88

  240

  1988–89

  550

  1989–90

  360

  1990–91

  720

  1991–92 (provisional)

  180

  I regret that further information is not available centrally.

  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the total level of bad debt to the private sector in the third world; and what are the comparative figures for the past five years.

  Mr. Nelson
  Information requested is not readily available and could only be provided at a disproportionate cost. Information on provisions made by British banks for their exposure to problem country debtors is contained in the Bank of England's annual Banking Act report, copies of which are available in the Library.

  National and Provincial Building Society
  Ms. Janet Anderson
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what representations he has received concerning the claim by the National and Provincial building society for the repayment of £29 million allegedly overpaid as tax on savings in 1986; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Dorrell
  A number of representatives have been received. The issues were fully considered during the Finance Bill debates.

  Interest Rates
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer by how many points United Kingdom interest rates have been reduced(a) since leaving the ERM and (b) between joining the ERM and August 1992.

  Mr. Nelson
  Between joining the ERM and August 1992, United Kingdom bank base rates were reduced by 5 points, from 15 to 10 per cent. They have since been reduced to 9 per cent.

  National Lottery
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what plans he has to close down the premium bond draw on the introduction of the national lottery; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr Nelson
  I have no such plans.

  Voluntary Organisations (Taxation)
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make it his policy to offer parity for voluntary organisations with local government in taxation matters.

  Mr. Nelson
  No. I see no reason why voluntary organisations should be treated as if they were local authorities.

  Non-departmental Bodies
  Mr. Shersby
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what recent consideration has been given by Her Majesty's Treasury to the need to draw to the attention of non-departmental bodies the rules governing payment for untaken leave and the obtaining of the prior approval of the Treasury Solicitor before the making of agreements with employees; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr Portillo
  Establishment officers of non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs) were reminded of the need to ensure observance of the general principles of sound management and the provisions relating to payment for untaken leave in a letter circulated by the Treasury on 5 October.

  NDPBs, as employers in their own right, seek legal advice whenever necessary. It would not be appropriate to require NDPBs to obtain legal advice specifically from the Treasury Solicitor but it would be open to the sponsor department, if a matter were raised with it, to consult its own lawyers or the Treasury Solicitor.

  Public Expenditure
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make a statement on the ending of the Barnett formula relating to public expenditure per head in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland to that in England and the United Kingdom average.

  Mr. Portillo
  No decisions have yet been taken about future levels of public expenditure. When they are, they will be announced in the autumn statement in the normal way.

  Foreign Exchange Markets
  Mr. Winnick
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make it his practice to answer questions on the level of Government intervention in the foreign exchange markets in support of exchange rate objectives.

  Mr. Nelson
  I have no plans to change the long-standing practice of successive Governments not to provide details of intervention operations.

  Invalidity Benefit
  Mr. Dewar
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it remains his policy to tax invalidity benefit.

  Mr. Dorrell
  It remains the Government's intention to bring invalidity benefit into taxation at a suitable opportunity.

  Economic and Monetary Union
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the proposed date for the start of the final stage of economic and monetary union agreed to in the Maastricht treaty; and what stage the United Kingdom has reached.

  Mr. Nelson
  The starting date for the third stage of economic and monetary union will be set in accordance with the provisions of article 109j of the treaty on European union. Along with all other member states, the United Kingdom is presently participating in the first stage which began on 1 July 1990.

  First-time Home Buyers
  Mr. David Porter
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make it his policy to develop a scheme to stimulate the housing market by increasing mortgage interest tax relief and reducing stamp duty for first-time buyers only; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Nelson
  The Government have received a number of such suggestions in recent weeks, all of which are considered carefully.

  Council Tax
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will set out the form of competitive tender arrangements for the supply of estate agency services for the valuation and banding exercise for the introduction of the council tax in Wales; and if he will give the cost of the exercise, broken down by payments to each firm of estate agents or chartered surveyors employed and in which local authority area they were employed.

  Mr. Nelson
  The competitive tendering arrangements for the award of contracts to private sector firms for the valuation banding of domestic properties for the council tax in Wales were undertaken by the Valuation Office Agency.

  The exercise was based on the established public sector procurement process of press advertising, pre-qualification and sealed bid tendering. The process throughout was the subject of consultation with the main valuers' professional institutions.

  The pre-qualification stage involved an operational assessment by the agency of firms who registered an interest in assisting with the valuation banding, and an assessment of financial viability by independent consultants. Those firms successful at this stage were invited to tender.

  The evaluation of bids and the authorisation of the award of contracts to successful firms was undertaken by a tender evaluation board. The board comprised representatives from the agency, the Welsh Office and the professional institutions.
  191
  The total cost of the contracts awarded to private sector firms, which were completed earlier this year, amounted to £1,406,142. It is not possible to disclose the payments to each contractor, on the grounds of commercial confidence.

  The district council areas in Wales where contracts were awarded, and the contractors employed in these areas is shown in the table.

  District council area

  Contractor

  Aberconwy

  Nationwide Estate Agents; J. Hampson & Co.

  Alyn and Deeside

  Dixon Webb

  Blaenau Gwent

  Morgan Knight; Scotts

  Brecknock

  King Thomas Lloyd-Jones & Co.

  Cardiff

  Connell Estate Agents;

  Black Horse Agencies;

  Peter Alan Ltd;

  James Jones & Henton

  Ceredigion

  Evans Bros; King Thomas Lloyd-Jones & Co.

  Colwyn

  Kitching Bell; J. Hampson & Co.

  Cynon Valley

  Lanyon Davies & Evans

  Delyn

  Kitching Bell; J. Hampson & Co.

  Dwyfor

  Bob Parry & Co. Ltd.

  Glyndwr

  Kitching Bell

  Islwyn

  Morgan Knight

  Llanelli

  W. Griffiths Son & Lewis

  Lliw Valley

  Foote & Halfpenny;

  Fairwood Surveyors & Valuers

  Meirionnydd

  Farmers Marts (R. G. Jones) Ltd.

  Merthyr Tydfil

  William Graham & Co.

  Monmouth

  William Graham & Co;

  Russell Baldwin & Bright;

  Colleys Professional Services

  Montgomeryshire

  Farmers Marts (R. G. Jones) Ltd;

  Norman R. Lloyd & Co;

  Morris Marshall & Pool

  Neath

  Foote & Halfpenny;

  Peter Alan Ltd.

  Newport

  William Graham & Co;

  Black Horse Agencies

  Ogwr

  Payton Jewell Caines & Hurry;

  Peter Alan Ltd; CRGP Bute UK

  Port Talbot

  Payton Jewell Caines & Hurry

  Preseli Pembrokeshire

  Evans Bros; King Thomas

  Lloyd-Jones & Co.

  Radnor

  King Thomas Lloyd-Jones & Co.

  Rhuddlan

  J. Hampson & Co.

  Rhymney Valley

  William Graham & Co.

  South Prembrokeshire

  Evans Bros

  Swansea

  Fairwood Surveyors & Valuers

  192

  District council area

  Contractor

  Taff-Ely

  CRGP Bute UK

  Torfaen

  William Graham & Co.

  Vale of Glamorgan

  Kemps; Martin Cotsen & Co.

  Ynys Môn—Isle of Anglesey

  N. W. Burnell & Associate; Swetenhams Royal Life Estates

  Average Family Income
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will list the relative position of Wales on the table of average family incomes compared with other standard regions of the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Nelson
  Estimates of gross normal weekly household income for Wales and the standard regions of the United Kingdom are shown in the table. The estimates are based on two years results from the 1989 and 1990 family expenditure surveys.

  Average gross normal weekly household income1 1989 and 1990

  Region

  £/week

  North

  265.62

  Yorks and Humberside

  263.53

  North East

  289.75

  East Midlands

  311.67

  West Midlands

  295.87

  East Anglia

  325.08

  Greater London

  402.22

  South East except Greater London

  391.51

  South West

  317.36

  Wales

  263.09

  Scotland

  227.48

  Northern Ireland

  232.69

  All United Kingdom

  319.36

  1Gross normal weekly household income is the total of wages and salaries, self-employment, income, investment, pensions and other sources for all household members. It also includes an imputed income component for owner occupiers and those who occupy their dwelling rent-free.

  Child Benefit
  Mr. John Marshall
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate has been made of the revenue which would be obtained by taxing child benefit.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The estimated direct revenue yield in 1992–93 from making child benefit liable to tax would be about £600 million. This assumes that child benefit received by married couples would be taxed as the mother's income.

  Currency Changes
  Mr. Hain
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will give figures for the percentage change in the retail prices index and the percentage change in the level of sterling compared with(a) the deutschmark and (b) the US dollar for each calendar year since 1979.

  Mr. Nelson
  Recent annual figures for retail prices and exchange rates can be found in the Economic Trends

  193
  published by the Central Statistical Office, and figures for earlier years are published in corresponding tables in Economic Trends annual supplement.

  Departmental Staff
  Mr. Steen
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many staff his Department currently employs; what are the total personnel costs; and what were the staffing levels and personnel costs in 1970.

  Mr. Nelson
  [pursuant to his answer, 14 July 1992, c. 527]:The answer unfortunately used incorrect figures for average staff in post for 1991–92. The correct figure is 2,928 and not 3,192 as stated.

SCOTLAND

  Water and Sewerage
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will list, for each region, the water supply zones where the water authorities have assessed that there is a risk of United Kingdom standards for lead in water not always being met stating for each the expected date for compliance; and if he will make a statement.

  Sir Hector Monro
  The public water supply zones in Scotland where mainland authorities have reported that, after the end of 1991, there was a risk of the United Kingdom standard for lead not always being met and where, consequently, further action was required by the regulations, are listed in the table. The expected date for compliance is also stated where this has been agreed.

  In almost half of the 77 zones listed, remedial action has either been taken, or is planned to be taken before the end of this year.

  Following earlier improvements by water authorities, statutory random sampling last year indicated that, compared with 1990, samples failing the lead standard dropped from more than 4 per cent. to under 2 per cent. However, compliance with the standard cannot be guaranteed until lead pipes and fittings, mainly within consumers own properties, are removed.

  Authority/Supply Zone

  Expected Date for Compliance or Date Completed

  Borders

  Cockburnspath

  —1

  Earnscleugh

  1994

  Hawick—Acreknowe

  —1

  Innerleithen

  1993

  Oxton

  —1

  Philiphaugh

  1992

  Selkirk

  —1

  Tweedsmuir

  1993

  West Linton

  1992

  Yarrowfeus

  1992 (completed)

  Central

  Alloa

  1992 (completed)

  Dumfries & Galloway

  Castle Douglas

  19932

  Creetown

  19932

  Landheads

  19932

  Langholm

  19932

  Moffat

  19932

  New Abbey

  19932

  Newton Stewart

  19932

  Palnure

  19932

  194

  Authority/Supply Zone

  Expected Date for Compliance or Date Completed

  Sanquhar

  19932

  Fife

  Newburgh

  1992 (completed)

  Grampian

  Aboyne

  1992 (completed)

  Airyhall, Aberdeen

  —1

  Ballater

  —3

  Banff

  1992 (completed)

  Craigie East, Aberdeen

  —1

  Dufftown

  1993

  Forres

  1992 (completed)

  Mannofield South, Aberdeen

  —1

  New Pitsligo

  —3

  Tomintoul

  1992 (completed)

  Highland—assessment not yet available

  Lothian

  Alnwickhill—Joppa

  1991 (completed)

  Alnwickhill—Leith

  1991 (completed)

  Alnwickhill—Newington

  1991 (completed)

  Alnwickhill—Portobello

  1991 (completed)

  Chalkieside

  1991 (completed)

  Deans

  1992 (completed)

  Dechmont Law

  1992 (completed)

  Eastcraigs

  1992 (completed)

  Fairmilehead Direct

  1991 (completed)

  Firhill Mid

  1991 (completed)

  Firhill North

  1991 (completed)

  Firhill South

  1991 (completed)

  Firhill West

  1991 (completed)

  Humbie

  1992 (completed)

  Kinleith

  19953

  Marchbank/Harlaw

  19953

  Rosebery East

  —3

  Rosebery West

  —3

  Turduff

  19953

  Tayside

  Aberfeldy

  19963

  Acharn

  19963

  Balnaguard

  19963

  Benachally

  19963

  Camserney and Weem

  19963

  Clash

  19963

  Fearnan

  19963

  Fingask

  19963

  Glenfarg

  19963

  Glenogil

  19963

  Grandtully

  19963

  Kenmore

  19963

  Kinloch Rannoch

  19963

  Pitagowan and Calvine

  19963

  Pitlochry

  19963

  Strathclyde

  Ardeer

  1992

  Barrhead/Auchenback

  1993

  Crookfur/Newton Mearns

  1993

  Girvan North

  1992

  Inverclyde West

  —3

  Irvine

  1992

  Kilmarnock South

  1992

  Leven Valley

  —3

  Prestwick

  1992

  Troon and Kilwinning

  1992

  Saltcoats/North Stevenston

  1992

  Whiting Bay

  —3

  1 Further investigation of treatment required.

  2 Further assessment of risk to be carried out by the date given.

  3 Further information required from water authority.

  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will estimate, for each region, what
  195
  investment is needed at 1992 prices to meet the requirement to end dumping of sewage sludge at sea after 1998; and if he will make a statement.

  Sir Hector Monro
  Only Strathclyde and Lothian regional councils are affected by the ending of sewage sludge dumping at sea. Councils are presently completing reviews of their sludge disposal strategies. At current prices, possible investments associated with the cessation of dumping are estimated by the regional councils at £70 million for Strathclyde and £21 million for Lothian.

  Food Poisoning
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many cases of food poisoning have been notified in each year since 1979; and if will make a statement.

  Mr. Allan Stewart
  The numbers of cases of food poisoning notified in Scotland since 1979 are as follows:

  Year

  Notifications

  1979

  2,657

  1980

  2,299

  1981

  2,920

  1982

  2,880

  1983

  2,632

  1984

  2,331

  1985

  1,967

  1986

  2,436

  1987

  2,480

  1988

  2,998

  1989

  3,197

  1990

  3,024

  1991

  2,938

TRANSPORT

  Rail Services
  Ms. Janet Anderson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what discussions he has had with the chairman of British Rail about rail services to and from Darwen, Lancashire.

  Mr. Freeman
  None. The level of service on the line is a matter for British Rail and the Greater Manchester passenger executive.

  Ms. Janet Anderson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what representations he has received concerning the reduction in Sunday rail services to and from Darwen, Lancashire, Following publication of the citizen's charter.

  Mr. Freeman
  One. The level of service on this line is a matter for British Rail and the Greater Manchester passenger transport executive.

  Coal
  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will state the number of million tonne miles of coal carried by railways and coastal and inland shipping in or around the United Kingdom in 1990 and 1991, and his estimate of the amount likely to be carried thereafter, following implementation of the current plans for reduced use of coal.
  196
  Mr. Freeman
  Statistics of coal and coke movements in 1990 and 1991 are given in table 1.9 of Transport Statistics Great Britain 1992, which was published in September. The figures for rail and water, including coastal and inland waterway movements, are as follows:

  Billion tonne-kilometres

  1990

  1991

  Rail

  5.0

  15.0

  Water

  1.4

  21.7

  1 1991–92 financial year

  2provisional

  It is for British Rail Trainload Freight and the shipping industry to make their own estimates of the amount of coal and coke they expect to carry.

  Car Safety
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what action is currently undertaken by his Department to encourage car manufacturers to take into account the safety of pedestrians, cyclists and motorcyclists when designing their cars.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  The United Kingdom is at the forefront of moves within Europe to make the fronts of cars less harmful to pedestians, cyclists and motorcyclists in the event of a collision and is currently co-operating in the drafting of an EC directive. The Government welcome the fact that manufacturers are already incorporating in their cars some of the measures which are proposed in the directive and hope that they will be able to move further in this direction.

  Traffic Accidents
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what percentage of children under school-leaving age were involved in road traffic accidents in the United Kingdom in 1991; and what information he has on the equivalent figures for each European Community and European Free Trade Association country.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  There were 46,126 reported road casualties aged under 16 years in the United Kingdom during 1991, which represents a rate of 0.40 per 100 population. Comparable data for other EC and EFTA countries are not available. Instead, the table shows road fatalities aged under 15 in those countries and the corresponding fatality rates per million population in that age group.

  Child1 road fatalities and fatality rates:

  EC and EFTA countries: 1990

  Number/rate per million population

  Country

  Fatalities

  Fatality rate

  EC

  Belgium2

  94

  52

  Denmark

  48

  54

  France

  524

  46

  Germany

  554

  44

  Greece

  93

  346

  Ireland

  46

  48

  Italy

  247

  26

  Luxembourg2

  5

  78

  Netherlands

  100

  37

  Portugal2

  190

  94

  Spain

  399

  51

  197

  Country

  Fatalities

  Fatality rate

  United Kingdom

  394

  36

  EFTA

  Austria

  67

  50

  Finland

  45

  47

  Iceland

  3

  47

  Norway

  18

  22

  Sweden

  35

  23

  Switzerland

  47

  41

  1Aged under 15.

  21989 data.

  3 Based on 1988 population.

  Source: IRTAD database (OECD) and UNECE,

  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what percentage of children under school-leaving age were injured in road traffic accidents in each United Kingdom region in the latest year for which figures are available.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  The table shows the number of reported road accident casualties aged under 16 in each United Kingdom region in 1991, and the corresponding casualty rates per 100 population in that age group as follows:

  Child1 casualties and casualty rates2, by region:

  United Kingdom 1991

  Number/rate per 100 population

  Regions

  Number of casualties

  Casualty rate

  England

  North

  2,591

  0.42

  North West

  6,554

  0.50

  Yorkshire and Humberside

  4,230

  0.42

  East Midlands

  3,205

  0.40

  West Midlands

  4,303

  0.40

  East Anglia

  1,557

  0.38

  South East

  12,798

  0.37

  South West

  2,854

  0.32

  England total

  38,092

  0.40

  Wales

  2,343

  0.40

  Scotland

  4,156

  0.41

  Northern Ireland

  1,535

  0.36

  United Kingdom total

  46,126

  0.40

  1 Aged under 16. Excludes age not reported.

  2 1990 population estimates used to calculate rate.

  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will publish a figure showing the average cost to the Exchequer of each road traffic accident, including a figure for the average cost of medical care.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  The total costs of road accidents are updated each year and published in the Department of Transport publication, "Highways Economic Note No 1" and in "Road Accidents Great Britain".

  Direct costs to the Exchequer include medical costs, social security payments, police costs and lost revenue from taxation due to loss of earnings. The table shows average total cost, average cost to the Exchequer excluding lost taxation revenue for which no estimate is available, and also medical costs.
  198

  Average total cost

  Average cost to Exchequer

  Average medical and ambulance costs

  £

  £

  £

  Fatal accidents

  762,800

  12,600

  1,620

  Serious accidents

  26,500

  4,600

  2,970

  Slight accidents

  2,500

  500

  150

  All injury accidents

  20,400

  1,400

  700

  Ports
  Ms. Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what steps he will be taking in the remainder of 1992 to promote investment into British ports within the wider investment infrastructure of the Community, to place British ports in a position level to that of ports in other Community countries.

  Mr. Norris
  This Government's policies have led to a vigorous flow of private sector investment into United Kingdom ports. We welcome the initiative by the European Commission to set up a member states' group on ports and trans-European networks, to identify opportunities for expanding the role of ports and shipping services in freight transport within the Community. We also welcome the statement, in the working documents circulated to the first meeting on 1 October, stressing the need to maintain the principle of free and fair competition between ports.

  Car Advertisements
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what efforts are being undertaken by his Department to discourage car manufacturers from referring to the aquisition of speed as a central feature of their advertising campaigns.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  The Advertising Standards Authority and the Independent Television Commission have responsibility for setting standards for acceptable advertisements. These standards prohibit any advertisement which places undue emphasis on speed or encourages unlawful or unsafe driving practices. The Advertising Standards Authority issued further advice to advertising practitioners, following discussions in 1990. This advice has resulted in a significant reduction in the number of advertisements found to be in breach of the standards. At a further meeting last July, the authority agreed to maintain its close monitoring of the use of speed in car advertising.

  Deregulation
  Mr. Sproat
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what financial provisions, and how much, he has made within his Department in order to look at the potential for deregulation of each of the regulatory measures for which he has responsibility.

  Mr. Norris
  It is not possible to place a financial figure on the Department's involvement with deregulation. The Department is continually seeking opportunities for deregulation in transport and a high proportion of its current policies are directed at this aim. In addition, whenever new legislation or regulation is being considered by the Department, the Department examines closely the cost impact of such measures, especially on business.

  Regional Airlines
  Mr. Luff
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what consideration he has given to paragraph 13.53 of the Monopolies and Mergers Commission's report MMC2, BAA plc, published in 1991; if he will make it his policy that interests of United Kingdom regional airlines could be safeguarded under section 41 of the Airports Act 1986; what plans he has to act to protect the interests of such airlines; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Norris
  My right hon. Friend has noted the view the MMC expressed on the structure of charges at BAA plc's London airports.

  The Government look for healthy competition in the aviation market and seek to protect the interests of both consumers and operators against anti-competitive practices. Section 41 of the Airports Act 1986 gives the Civil Aviation Authority the power to impose conditions on an airport operator to remedy specific conduct which unreasonably discriminates against any class of airport user or unfairly exploits that operator's bargaining position.

  Road Works
  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (1) what estimates he has made of the potential benefits to road users of the use of trenchless technology;

  (2) what research he has funded into the cost benefit of trenchless technology.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  In 1989 the Department commissioned the transport research laboratory to assess the use of trenchless construction methods in road works in a three-year project, at a cost of £90,000. The project is intended to provide details of the potential savings to road users as a result of more widespread use of trenchless methods, and to provide information about what, if any, additional direct costs would be incurred by using trenchless methods. An interim report was produced in July 1991, and a final report, covering evaluation of methods, economics and potential for application, is due in the spring of 1993.

  Associated with this project is another one, begun in May 1992, which is being carried out by the Construction Industry Research and Information Association under the title "RP 456: Planning and Investigation for the Use of Trenchless and Minimum Excavation Technology in the Installation, Replacement and Renovation of Underground Services". The report on this project is expected in 1993.

  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if it is his policy to encourage highway authorities and undertakers to take account of delays to road users when planning road works.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  Yes. The relevant provisions of the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991 will come into force on 1 January 1993. They will require street authorities, normally the local highway authorities, to co-ordinate undertakers' street works and works for their own road purposes, and will impose a duty on undertakers to co-operate with the street authority and other undertakers, one of the aims being to minimise inconvenience to users of the street. We shall shortly be publishing a code of practice giving practical guidance on the carrying out of these duties.
  200
  I expect these provisions to prove effective in reducing delays associated with undertakers' and highway authorities' works in the road. I shall be monitoring the situation closely.

  The Act provides an additional reserve power to make regulations imposing charges for occupation of the highway where undertakers' works are unreasonably prolonged. We shall not hesitate to implement this provision if we need to do so.

  High Winds
  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make a statement on the information available to him on the incidence and effect of high winds on the Dartford/Thurrock bridge.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  Since the Queen Elizabeth II bridge came into use in October 1991, it has only once been closed because of high winds. Speed restrictions and lane closures due to high winds have been imposed for a total of some 71 hours.

  Fishing Vessels
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many fishing vessels are registered in the United Kingdom but beneficially owned in each other EC member state.

  Mr. Norris
  There are now some 57 Spanish, 21 Dutch and two Danish fishing vessels registered in the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (1) to what degree a fishing vessel is required to show a genuine economic link with the United Kingdom to qualify for registrations and licensing with United Kingdom authorities;

  (2) what information he has on the names of fishing vessels registered in the United Kingdom and beneficially owned in other EC member states of the owners of these boats and the United Kingdom link which allows them to be British registered.

  Mr. Norris
  Any vessel fishing for profit is required to give certain details including details of ownership and management and the name of vessel before it can be registered in the United Kingdom.

  In line with the requirements of the Merchant Shipping Act 1988 we continue to require that any fishing vessel on the United Kingdom register must be managed and the operations directed and controlled from within the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether the claim for compensation by fishing vessels from his Department for the period deregistered will be based on the net earnings of the British companies which owned the vessels concerned prior to 31 March 1989.

  Mr. Norris
  The applicants seek damages under three heads; expenses, losses consequent on the sale of vessels and losses consequent on the need to provide bonds, fines and legal expenses. The Government do not, however, accept that they are under any liability to pay compensation.

  Railway Tracks
  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what plans he has to meet the chairman of British Rail to discuss British Rail's plans to sell redundant and little-used railway track.

  Mr. Freeman
  The Secretary of State and I meet the chairman of British Rail regularly to discuss various matters. The board's objectives require it to divest itself of all underused or surplus land and property as rapidly as possible, at a proper commercial price.

  The procedure currently followed by BR for the disposal of disused trackbed is as follows:

  (i) Discussions with the various BR businesses to establish that the land is no longer required for operational purposes and that no future operational use has been identified by them. The land is then handed over to the British Rail Property Board (BRPB) for disposal.

  (ii) Notification by BRPB to local authorities that it intends to sell the land so that they can approach the board with their requirement to purchase at the earliest possible date.

  (iii) If there is no approach from the local authority, BRPB notifies statutory undertakers, MOD, British Coal and the Department to see if there are any objections to the sale.

  (iv) If there are no objections, BRPB proceeds with the sale.

  Motorway Accidents
  Mr. Pawsey
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what estimate he has made of the number of accidents which have occurred on motorways as a result of vehicles hitting tyre debris or swerving to avoid such debris.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  The information requested is not available. However of the 6,287 motorway injury accidents in Great Britain in 1991, 209 involved vehicles hitting an object on the carriageway that was not a vehicle load, a previous accident or an animal. This accounts for 3 per cent. of all motorway injury accidents.

  Air Misses
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, pursuant to his Answer of 12 June,Official Report, column 298, when the hon. Member can expect to receive the report of the CAA/Ministry of Defence investigation into the air near-miss that occurred on 1 July over Currock hill gliding site.

  Mr. Norris
  I am advised by the Civil Aviation Authority that this incident, involving a Cadedonian Airways triStar and a glider, over Currock hill gliding site on 31 May 1992, has been examined by the independent joint airmiss working group. The findings of the group will be available in the spring of next year. It will feature in the Civil Aviation Authority's regular publication "UK Airmisses Involving Commercial Air Transport". Arrangements have been made for the hon. Member to receive a copy when it is available.

  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, pursuant to his answer of 7 July,Official Report, column 109, when the hon. Member can expect to receive the report from the joint CAA/Ministry of Defence investigation into the air near-misses that occurred on (a) 26 June over south Wales and (b) 25 June, 15 miles north of Grimsby.
  202
  Mr. Norris
  The air miss report filed with the Civil Aviation Authority in respect of the incidents involving respectively:

  1. An Air UK Fokker 27 and a Royal Air Force Tornado, north of Grimsby on 25 June 1992; and

  2. A United Airlines boeing 767 and a Venezuelan-registered Falcon 50 south west of Ebbw Vale on 26 June 1992;

  have been examined by the independent joint air miss working group. The group's assessment of each incident will be published along with others by the Civil Aviation Authority in the spring of 1993 and I have made arrangments for the hon. Member to receive a copy of this document when it is available.

  Passenger Ferries
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what consultations he has had with his counterpart in the Irish Republic concerning the vetting of sewerage system safety in design and operation on Welsh-Irish passenger ferry services; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Norris
  My officials have been in regular contact with the Irish Department of the Marine, and the Polish authorities, since the tragic accident on the Celtic Pride on 12 August. My surveyors agreed with the operators and the Irish administration a programme for the implementation of modifications to the sewerage system, to provide a permanent solution to the venting problems which caused the accident. Following completion of these modifications, and subsequent tests on the ship in an operational condition, the ship has now been allowed to continue operations. However, monitoring of the situation on board the ship continues on a regular basis.

  My Department, and the Irish administration, have circulated an urgent notice to all ferry companies operating from United Kingdom and Irish ports, about the checks to be made on sewerage systems. The Irish administration is currently conducting an inquiry into the tragedy, and will provide my Department with full details of its findings and any recommendations.

  East London River Crossing
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when he last visited Oxleas wood; when he last had communication with the European Commission regarding the east London river crossing; and if he will make a statement

  Mr. Norris
  I visited Oxleas wood in May. The United Kingdom sent its response to the European Commission's article 169 letter in December 1991. The Commission announced on 31 July that it will be proceeding to reasoned opinion on the alleged non-compliance with the EC Directive on Environmental Assessment. No further communication has been received.

  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what was the original estimate of the cost of construction of the east London river crossing; what is his current estimate; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Norris
  The original estimated cost of the east London river crossing, as set out in the White Paper "Policy for Roads: England 1980" Cmnd. 7908, was £90 million, for construction works only, at 1978 prices.
  203
  Following detailed development of the scheme, including substantial changes discussed at the two public inquiries, the current estimated cost including land is about £300 million at 1989 prices.

  Air Routes
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what concessions his Department made to allow an American airline to have a direct air route between Glasgow and Washington; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Norris
  Under the Bermuda 2 air services agreement, the Governments of the United States and the United Kingdom each have the right to designate an airline or airlines to operate services on routes between Glasgow and a number of United States gateway cities, including Washington. These rights were negotiated as part of the original agreement in 1977.

  £ million cash

  1987–88

  1988–89

  1989–90

  1990–91

  1991–92

  Bus purchase

  3.1

  8.5

  15.3

  15.7

  23.8

  London Underground Limited (inc new lines)

  213

  215

  302

  458

  368

  Disaggregated figures for the next two years are not available, but the total London Transport investment implied by the 1991 settlement was £1,519 million in 1993–94 and £1,370 million in 1994–95.

  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what investment plans he approved in 1991 for London Transport.

  Mr. Norris
  My right hon. Friend does not approve LT investment plans. However, the levels of capital investment implied by the 1991 autumn statement for LT, including new lines, for the next three years are:

  Year

  £ million cash

  1992–93

  1,197

  1993–94

  1,519

  1994–95

  1,370

  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what information he has on the change in unit costs for bus travel in London over the past 10 years.

  Mr. Norris
  The following figures show local bus operating costs in London over the past 10 years. They comprise services operated under contract to London Transport, and all operations by London Buses Limited, other than commercial services by London Coaches Limited. They exclude depreciation and renewals, and are rounded to the nearest five pence.

  Year

  Cost per bus kilometre (£) 1990–91 prices

  1980

  2.15

  1981

  2.15

  1982

  2.20

  1983

  2.20

  1984–85

  2.20

  London Transport
  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he proposes to alter the capital programmes of London Transport.

  Mr. Norris
  London Transport's external financing requirement for the three years ahead is reviewed annually. I cannot anticipate the Chancellor's autumn statement announcement on the financial provision for the years 1993–94 to 1995–96.

  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what capital spending has been authorised for London Transport on(a) bus replacement and (b) the underground railways in each of the last five years; and what sums have been published for the next two years.

  Mr. Norris
  The appointment of capital spending between bus purchase, the undergound railways and other types of investment is a matter for London Transport not the Government. The table which gives the information on spending for the past five years is as follows:

  Year

  Cost per bus kilometre (£) 1990–91 prices

  1985–86

  2.05

  1986–87

  1.90

  1987–88

  1.80

  1988–89

  1.80

  1989–90

  1.70

  1990–91

  1.65

  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make a statement on the extension and the returns on bus priority and selective vehicle identification schemes for buses in London.

  Mr. Norris
  The Department of Transport issued advice on bus priority measures last December, and a number of schemes are now being prepared by the London boroughs in conjunction with London Transport. The Government have allocated £1 million for these schemes in the current year.

  A selective bus identification trial scheme in the south-east London—north-east Kent area is producing substantial benefits to buses and their passengers. London Buses is now fitting its buses with the equipment necessary to extend the benefits to other parts of outer London.

  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what are the economic effects on the efficiency of London Transport's capital programmes of short-term changes in authorised spending.

  Mr. Norris
  Careful cash control and management of the large stock of projects which LT has in various stages of development enables LT to adjust its capital investment programme from time to time in the light of available resources, as any other business may have to do.
  205
  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what information he has on the changes in bus miles and in bus passenger numbers for London Transport bus services compared with out-of-London services.

  Mr. Norris
  For the past five years, the information requested is as follows:

  Bus miles (millions)

  London

  Outside London

  1986–87

  173

  1,169

  1987–88

  171

  1,283

  1988–89

  177

  1,306

  1989–90

  181

  1,337

  1990–91

  189

  1,330

  Passenger journeys (millions)

  London

  Outside London

  1986–87

  1,164

  4,179

  1987–88

  1,240

  4,081

  1988–89

  1,240

  4,001

  1989–90

  1,207

  3,881

  1990–91

  1,197

  3,654

  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what has been the average age of London Transport's buses in each of the last five years.

  Mr. Norris
  The average age of London Buses Ltd.'s fleet is heavily influenced by the presence of around 650 routemaster vehicles whose average age in 1991 was 27 years. I understand from it that the information is as follows:

  Year

  Average age (years)

  1987

  9.6

  1988

  9.5

  1989

  9.9

  1990

  10.3

  1991

  10.3

  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what are his responsibilities, objectives and targets for public transport in London.

  Mr. Norris
  The Secretary of State's objectives, targets and responsibilities are set out in the Departmental Report "The Government's Expenditure Plans for Transport 1992–93 to 1994–95". A copy of the report has been placed in the House Library.

  Since that report was published, there have been two major developments. First, new quality of service objectives for London Transport bus and underground services were announced. I refer the hon. Member to the answers I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Fulham (Mr. Carrington) on 2 June, Vol 208, col. 524–26 and on 29 June, Vol 210, col. 388–90.

  Secondly, following publication of the white Paper, Cmd. 2012, "New Opportunities for the Railways", a consultation document—"The Franchising of Passenger Rail Services"—was published on 12 October. A copy has been placed in the House Library. This gives further information on how the franchising system will work and
  206
  seeks views from prospective franchisees. This is in pursuit of the Government's overall objective for British Rail to extend the involvement of the private sector in the operation of the railways, ensure continuity of services, assure safety, and provide value for money.

  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport in which years since 1972 the capital spending by London Transport has maintained asset standards.

  Mr. Norris
  Information in the form requested is not held by the Government or by LT.

  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will list link London Transport's(a) higher priority projects and (b) lower priority projects included in his consideration of capital spending plans.

  Mr. Norris
  No. It is for LT and its subsidiaries, not the Government, to decide what priority is given to specific investment projects.

  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what sum of money is neded to prevent an increase in the average age of London Transport's buses.

  Mr. Norris
  It is not possible to give a precise figure. London Buses Ltd's bus replacement programme is not driven by the aim of maintaining a particular average age of the fleet.

  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport which conclusions and options of the central London rail study have been accepted by him and by London Transport.

  Mr. Norris
  The central London rail study recommended a major upgrading programme to make the best use of existing infrastructure and proposed two options for new lines. Since then investment in existing infrastructure has been raised to record levels, a Bill has been deposited in Parliament for Crossrail and the route of the Chelsea-Hackney line has been safeguarded.

  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will estimate the import share in London Transport's capital spending.

  Mr. Norris
  No such calculation is made or could meaningfully be made. It is for London Transport to place orders where best value for money can be obtained.

  Canary Wharf
  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will estimate the numbers who will live within 40 minutes travel time of Canary Wharf if the Jubilee line extension is(a) built or (b) not built.

  Mr. Norris
  This information is not available and could be obtained only at a disproportionate cost.

  Department of Transport
  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many people have held the position of(a) Secretary of State for Transport, (b) Minister for Public Transport, (c) Permanent Secretary and (d) Deputy Secretary for Public Transport since January 1989.

  Mr. Norris
  Four people have held the position of Secretary of State for Transport since January 1989. Two
  207
  people have held the position of Minister of State for Public Transport since January 1989. Two people have held the position of permanent secretary and three people have held the position of deputy secretary for public transport since January 1989.

  Bus Deregulation
  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will consider modern stored value and integrated ticketing before deregulation of buses in London.

  Mr. Norris
  I understand that London Transport is currently undertaking a trial of stored value ticketing on bus route 212 in north London. London Underground is also developing a stored value ticketing system and London Transport intends that both systems should be compatible. On British Rail services, stored value ticketing is not so appropriate because of the cost and safety implications of providing ticket gates at all stations.

  Capital Spending
  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what estimates or research his Department has published on the economic and financial effects of sudden changes in capital spending.

  Mr. MacGregor
  None.

  London Underground
  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what sustained level of investment in London's underground was endorsed or recommended in the Monopolies and Mergers Commission report.

  Mr. Norris
  The Monopolies and Mergers Commission report of 5 June 1991 into London Underground Limited, LUL, did not endorse or recommend any specific level of investment in London Underground.

  Transpennine Roads
  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what steps he proposes to take regarding transpennine road links following publication of the recent study undertaken on this subject; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  There are a number of schemes in the national roads programme to improve transpennine road links. These include widening M62 between junctions 18 and 24; provision of a new Ml/M62 link; improvements to A628/A616 from M67 to Stocksbridge and improvements to A66.

  I will be better placed to make a statement regarding transpennine roads strategy once the public consultation period has finished on 5 March and all responses have been considered. At this stage the Government are not committed to any of the strategies in the consultants' report.

  A140
  Mr. Cann
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many fatalities have occurred on the A 140 between Norwich and the A45 in the last 10 years.
  208
  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  Forty-nine. The figures for the years 1982 to 1992, to 30 September, are as follows:

  Year

  Number of fatalities

  1982

  3

  1983

  6

  1984

  7

  1985

  1

  1986

  2

  1987

  3

  1988

  3

  1989

  12

  1990

  3

  1991

  5

  1992

  4

  These figures relate to the road between its junctions with the Norwich outer ring road and the A45.

  Bus Stops (Information Systems)
  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what is the estimated financial return and the estimated value to passengers and potential passengers of real time information systems at bus stops.

  Mr. Norris
  London Transport plans to start trials of Countdown in November. The purpose of those trials is to establish the cost, benefits and practicability of real time passenger information systems.

  Victoria Line
  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what assessment has has made of the economic value of the Victoria line.

  Mr. Norris
  None. The practice of carrying out backchecks on investments for which Government approval has been given is a relatively new one, and this has not been done in the case of the Victoria line.

  Transport Security Annual Report
  Sir Paul Beresford
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when he will publish the 1991–92 annual report of the director and co-ordinator of transport security.

  Mr. MacGregor
  Copies of the report have been placed in the Library of the House.

  Red Star
  Sir Paul Beresford
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make a statement on the future of the British Railways Board parcels service, Red Star.

  Mr. MacGregor
  I have received representations from the British Railways Board seeking approval to the early trade sale of Red Star, and on 7 October I announced my agreement to that proposal. The detailed sale arrangements will be drawn up by the board, subject to Government scrutiny in the usual way. I welcome the board's commitment to Red Star privatisation. An early sale is the best way to revitalise the business and return it to profitability.

  Passenger Railway Services
  Sir Paul Beresford
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how he plans to consult potential franchisees on his proposals for franchising passenger railway services; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. MacGregor
  I published a consultation document on 12 October with the aim of seeking the views of potential franchisees on the areas, geographically and in terms of specific activities, which may be of interest, and on the ways in which the franchising of passenger services might best be carried out. This should ensure that we implement franchising in the most market oriented way, so maximising competition and ensuring value for money. I have placed copies of this document in the Library.

  DVOIT
  Sir Paul Beresford
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what plans he has for the future of the DVOIT executive agency.

  Mr. MacGregor
  Following a review of its activities, DVOIT will be the first next steps agency to be privatised. Under the citizens charter we are committed to improving service to the public. This means introducing the market to many areas of government. Privatisation brings choice and efficiency, and I am confident that the privatisation of DVOIT will lead to continuing improvements in value for money in the IT services provided for my Department.

  A1 Red Route
  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what action he has taken on the Transport Research Laboratory technical paper TD/TP/173/92 about the patronage of businesses on the A1 red route.

  Mr. Norris
  I have noted with interest that the shopping activity section of the technical paper reproduces the findings published in the autumn monitoring report on the red route pilot scheme. Those findings support the view that trading activity depends more on the type of business being conducted and the economic climate than on red route measures.

  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will publish his Department's estimates of the change in patronage of businesses along the Al red route between its opening and the latest available date.

  Mr. Norris
  All monitoring reports including surveys of shopping activity at sites along the pilot red route have been published and copied to the hon. Member.

  East Suffolk Railway Line
  Mr. David Porter
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make a statement about the expressions of interest he has received from potential operators wishing to franchise the East Suffolk railway line.

  Mr. Freeman
  Before the issue of the consultation document on 12 October we had received expressions of interest about running franchised passenger railway services from around 50 companies. I am sure that the consultation document will engender further interest. At 210
  this early stage, it is for the companies themselves to indicate publicly whether they are interested in particular services.

  Mr. David Porter
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will visit and travel upon the east Suffolk railway line to study the possibilities for its future development; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Freeman
  I would be delighted to travel on the east Suffolk line when I am next visiting my hon. Friend's constituency.

  Rail Accident, Walton-on-the-Naze
  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when the report of the inspector of railways on the accident at Walton-on-the-Naze in August 1987 will be published; when the inspector's inquiries were completed; when the report was completed; what are the reasons for the delay in publishing the report; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Freeman
  Although the inspector's inquiries were completed in 1988 it has not yet been possible to publish a report due to continuing pressure of work. His principal findings were published in the Official Report on 21 October 1991, col. 466, and he discussed them with British Rail shortly after the completion of his inquiries. BR have taken remedial action to prevent any recurrence.

  I have asked the Health and Safety Commission to ensure publication of more detailed recommendations and conclusions by 31 December 1992.

  Transport, London
  Mr. Bowis
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what are his latest estimates for the respective construction and running costs and the contribution to London's economy and to London's transport system of(a) Crossrail, (b) the Hackney to Chelsea underground line and (c) the Hackney, Chelsea and East Putney underground line.

  Mr. Norris
  The latest estimates for the construction and operating costs of Crossrail, at 1990 prices, but reassessed in 1991, are £1,704 million for construction and £14.5 million per annum for operating costs. The latest estimates for the construction and operating costs of the Chelsea-Hackney line, at 1990 prices, are £1,776 million for construction and £31 million per annum for operating costs. The latest estimates for the net present value—NPV—of the costs and benefits of the two schemes, made in October 1990 for the Chelsea-Hackney line and in 1991 for Crossrail are reproduced in the table as follows:

  (Cost)-Benefit

  Crossrail

  Chelsea-Hackney line

  £ million

  £ million

  (March 1990 prices, NPV at 1 October 1990)

  (March 1990 prices NPV at 31 March 1990)

  Capital cost

  (1,354)

  (1,300)

  Operating cost

  (95)

  (204)

  Extra revenue to LUL/NSE

  321

  358

  Funding gap

  (1,128)

  (1,146)

  Passenger benefits

  1,170

  1,182

  Road user benefit

  393

  395

  211

  (Cost)-Benefit

  Crossrail

  Chelsea-Hackney line

  £ million

  £ million

  (March 1990 prices, NPV at 1 October 1990)

  (March 1990 prices NPV at 31 March 1990)

  —

  —

  ——

  ——

  Net benefit

  435

  431

  Benefit:cost ratio

  1. 30:1

  1. 29:1

  There are currently no plans for a Hackney, Chelsea and East Putney underground line. London Underground Limited is, however, reviewing the costs and benefits of an alternative alignment of the Chelsea-Hackney line via Sands End and Wandsworth and expects to report on the outcome in 1993.

  Pedal cycle casualties: by severity of casualty

  Great Britain 1987–91

  1987

  1988

  1989

  1990

  1991

  Killed

  280

  227

  294

  256

  242

  Seriously injured

  4,851

  4,652

  4,836

  4,344

  3,946

  Slightly injured

  21,063

  20,970

  23,383

  21,822

  20,615

  All casualties

  26,194

  25,849

  28,513

  26,422

  24,803

  Pedal cycle casualties: by severity of casualty and time of day

  Great Britain 1987–91

  1987

  1988

  1989

  1990

  1991

  Day

  Dark

  Day

  Dark

  Day

  Dark

  Day

  Dark

  Day

  Dark

  Killed

  209

  71

  173

  54

  226

  68

  179

  77

  173

  69

  Seriously injured

  3,858

  993

  3,669

  983

  3,841

  995

  3,436

  908

  3,156

  790

  Slightly injured

  17,323

  3,740

  17,008

  3,962

  19,146

  4,237

  17,870

  3,952

  16,752

  3,863

  All casualties

  21,390

  4,804

  20,850

  4,999

  23,213

  5,300

  21,485

  4,937

  20,080

  4,723

  Vehicle Registration
  Sir John Wheeler
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many inquiries have been made to the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency by the police service to establish the name and address of the registered keeper of a motor vehicle leading to the detection of a hit-and-run driver.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  The police normally obtain names and addresses of the present keepers of vehicles direct from the police national computer, PNC, which contains extracts from the central register maintained by the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency. During the past 12 months the police made some 47,000 enquiries of the agency for details of previous keepers not available from the PNC but it is not known how many, if any, of these related to detection of hit-and-run drivers.

  Sir John Wheeler
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what is the current estimate of the effect on the accuracy of the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency's register of keepers of the failure to notify a change of

  Cars
  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what percentage of(a) Welsh and (b) English households in 1991 (i) had no car available to them and (ii) had two or more cars.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  Information on car ownership is given in Transport Statistics Great Britain. Table 3.13(b) of the recently published 1992 edition showed that, in 1989, 30 per cent. of Welsh households had no car available to them and that 17 per cent. had two or more cars available to them. The equivalent figures for English households were 33 and 19 per cent. respectively.

  Cyclists
  Mr. Bowis
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many cyclists were(a) killed and (b) injured in each of the last five years; and how many in each category were cycling without lights during lighting up times.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  Cycling casualties over the past five years are given in the table as follows:

  Cycle light use is unknown, but cycle casualties occurring during daylight and darkness are shown in the table as follows:

  ownership; and what research is ongoing to establish an improved method for the recording of ownership or keepership of vehicles.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  It is estimated that less than 3 per cent. of people acquiring vehicles fail to comply with the legal requirement to notify the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency. When offenders are caught using unlicensed vehicles the agency prosecutes both for the offence of failing to notify acquisition of the vehicle and for evading payment of vehicle excise duty. The police have been asked to consider prosecution in other circumstances. Improved methods of recording vehicle keepership are currently being looked at as part of a study into possible further uses of new technology in the vehicle registration and licensing system.

  Cannon Street Railway Accident
  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when copies of the report of the Health and Safety Commission on the Cannon street railway accident
  213
  were (a) made available to the media, with or without an embargo, (b) published by HMSO, (c) placed in the Library and (d) made available in the Vote Office.

  Mr. Freeman
  The inspector's report was published by HMSO on 2 September. Unembargoed copies were made available to the media and placed in the House Library on the same day. There is no arrangement to place copies in the Vote Office.

  Public Transport
  Mrs. Dunwoody
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what proposals Her Majesty's Government have for increasing access to public transport for women with young children.

  Mr. Freeman
  My Department has a long-standing commitment to improve access to public transport for people with mobility problems. This includes very large numbers of women with young children who are dependent on public transport, as well as elderly people and those with disabilities. We work closely with vehicle designers and manufacturers, public transport operators, local authorities and people with mobility problems as consumers, to promote and encourage greater recognition of their needs. One current example is the Department's support for a demonstration project of low-floor buses, which will provide easier access for all people with mobility problems and which will be of particular benefit to those travelling with prams and baby buggies.

  Bus Services
  Mrs. Dunwoody
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what proposals he has to improve bus services in England.

  Mr. Freeman
  Last December I announced a package of measures to help promote bus use, including financial support for bus priority measures.

  European Airspace
  Mrs. Dunwoody
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what steps he has taken to avoid congestion in European airspace and to increase capacity.

  Mr. Norris
  The previous Secretary of State for Transport, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Edinburgh.. Pentlands (Mr. Rifkind) chaired a meeting of Transport Ministers of the member states of the European civil aviation conference, ECAC, in London on 17 March. They reached agreement on a number of points, in particular to reaffirm the European en-route strategy, which was launched in 1990 to harmonise and integrate the operations of each country's individual air traffic control systems; to extend that strategy to include central and eastern European members of ECAC; to launch a new ECAC airports strategy to increase air traffic management capacity in the vicinity of airports; and to initiate work on investigations of new technologies and their impact on the later stages of the harmonisation and integration programme.

  The United Kingdom continues to play a full part in the implementation of this work in co-operation with other bodies, including EUROCONTROL and the EC Commission. A further major European project is the
  214
  creation by EUROCONTROL of a central flow management unit near Brussels. This will take on the functions of the national flow management units at London and four other European centres, and should bring major benefits to the management of traffic flows in Europe.

  In the United Kingdom, the Civil Aviation Authority has embarked on its largest and most ambitious investment programme, totalling some £750 million, to provide the equipment, facilities and systems which will enable the increasing volume of air traffic to be handled. The two most significant projects are the new en-route centre, NERC, and the central control function, CCF. NERC, near Fareham, will provide a significant increase in airspace capacity in England and Wales. CCF is a radical change in the way in which airspace in London and south-east England is managed, and will also notably improve capacity. Additionally, recruitment of air traffic controllers by the CAA has increased from 67 in 1988–89 to a record level of 290 in 1991–92.

  Jubilee Line Extension
  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will give the estimated cost at 1992 or other prices of the proposed Jubilee line extension, together with the amount of that sum falling on public expenditure or contributed from other sources under specific conditions, either in respect of an approved scheme, or one approximating most closely to the requirements of Her Majesty's Government.

  Mr. Norris
  The current estimated cost of the Jubilee line extension in cash prices is £1,853 million, £1,415 million of this would fall on the public sector and £438 million on the private sector, based on the contributions originally promised. The particulars of those contributions are contained in the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, Central (Mr. Cousins) on 23 June. to which I refer the hon. Member.

  Cargo Flights
  Mr. Foulkes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what consideration he has given to the implications of the E1 A1 flight crash in Amsterdam for the disposition of cargo flights at United Kingdom airports; if he will give consideration to the safety aspects at United Kingdom airports where the flight paths are over densely populated areas; if he will consider recommending increased use of airports where the flightpaths are over sea and countryside, for cargo flights; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Norris
  The Department of Transport has taken advice from the CAA, including the National Air Traffic Services on this important matter.

  Cargo flights by United Kingdom airlines are subject to the same airworthiness, maintenance and operational requirements as passenger flights, thus there is no reason to treat them differently from the point of view of the safety of third parties on the ground. Most of the major airports are near large centres of population and some of the flight paths unavoidably pass over built-up areas. The safety implications of the E1 A1 accident for United Kingdom airports have been studied carefully by the

  215
  National Air Traffic Services. It will maintain its policy of giving the pilot of an aircraft in distress whatever help he requests to effect a safe landing.

ENVIRONMENT

  Homelessness
  Mr. Keith Hill
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how many households were accepted as homeless in each standard economic region, including Greater London, in each year since 1979 to the latest date available.

  Mr. Baldry
  I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Angus, East (Mr. Welsh) on 17 June,Official Report, column 569.

  Mr. Bowis
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will consider how best to help homeless persons who do not qualify for housing benefit because they are not in rented accommodation and cannot afford the deposit and advance rent to enable them to obtain rented accommodation; and if he will discuss with the Housing Corporation whether a starter loan or grant scheme could be devised under its auspices.

  Mr. Baldry
  Under the Government's rough sleepers initiative, my Department is funding the Notting Hill housing trust to operate a rent deposit fund. Our grant enables NHHT to provide homeless people with the deposits they need to gain access to accommodation in the private rented sector.

  This is a 15-month pilot project which is due to finish at the end of June 1993. We will then evaluate the results.

  Mrs. Dunwoody
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how many homeless people were recorded in(a)1990 and(b)1979 by English local authorities.

  Mr. Baldry
  The available information represents the numbers of homeless households for whom local authorities in England accepted responsibility for securing permanent accommodation under the homelessness provisions of the Housing (Homeless Persons) Act 1977 and the Housing Act 1985.

  The information is as follows:

  Year

  Households accepted as homeless

  1979

  55,530

  1990

  140,350

  A new reporting system was introduced for non-metropolitan districts from the fourth quarter 1980 and for the other authorities from the third quarter of 1982. Figures are therefore not strictly comparable over the whole period.

  Ms. Glenda Jackson
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how his Department plans to distinguish between genuine pregnancies and pregnancies conceived purely for purposes of gaining access to priority housing waiting lists.

  Mr. Baldry
  The homelessness legislation, which can confer priority need for accommodation on pregnant women, makes no such distinction.

  Deregulation
  Mr. Sproat
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what financial provisions, and how much, he has made within his Department in order to look at the potential for deregulation of each of the regulatory measures for which he has responsibility.

  Mr. Redwood
  All of my staff with responsibility for particular aspects of policy have the task of seeking opportunities for deregulation. It is not practicable to identify the separate financial and staff provision. I have asked them to identify licences for abolition, and develop less bureaucratic procedures for grants and regulatory action.

  Recycled Materials
  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he has any plans to introduce a duty of care for recycled materials.

  Mr. Maclean
  The duty of care introduced on 1 April under the Environmental Protection Act 1990 covers all controlled waste, including material intended for recycling.

  Housing Improvement Grants
  Ms. Janet Anderson
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will list for each local authority area in England and Wales the number of mandatory housing improvement grants approved and granted in each year since 1987; and if he will indicate the percentage in respect of housing stock in the private sector.

  Mr. Baldry
  Two grant systems have been in operation during this period. The first, under the Housing Act 1985, ended in March 1990, although payments continue for grants approved before that date. The second, under the Local Government and Housing Act 1989, largely came into force from July 1990 in England and Wales.

  Under the earlier system, mandatory grants were given to meet the cost of improving homes by putting in missing standard amenities such as baths, hot and cold water supplies and inside WCs. Discretionary grants were made towards the costs of improving homes to a good standard or to provide additional housing through conversions. In effect all intermediate grants and some special and repair grants were mandatory.

  The current system also involves different types of grant. The mandatory elements are renovation grant for repairs required to bring a property up to the fitness standard; disabled facilities grant for essential works to make a dwelling more suitable for occupation by a disabled person; and both the houses in multiple occupation (HMO) grant and the common parts grant where a statutory repairs notice has been served. Grants are otherwise discretionary. All renovation, common parts and HMO grants are payable solely to the private sector.

  Tables have been deposited in the Library showing the numbers of mandatory grants paid under the old system from 1987 to 1989. They also show for intermediate grants only the amounts paid to the private sector; a similar breakdown is not available for special or repair grants.

  Total payments of intermediate, special and repair grants in 1990 and 1991 are shown in table 4 of "Local Housing Statistics" issue No. 101, a copy of which is in the

  217
  Library. Information about the mandatory component of special and repair grants is not available for this period nor can payments of intermediate grants to the private sector be separately identified.

  There is no information available about grant approvals under the earlier system.

  Mandatory grants paid under the new system are also shown in table 4 of "Local Housing Statistics". Local authority level information about grants approved and of payments of disabled facilities grant to the private sector are not published, and tables have been deposited in the Library showing the available information.

  The answer covers English local authorities as the Department is responsible for housing policy only in England.

  Ms. Janet Anderson
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will list for each local authority area in England and Wales the number of mandatory housing improvement grants approved but not yet granted; and what the cost to each local authority of meeting those grants will be.

  Mr. Baldry
  The Department does not collect this data directly. However information is collected on both approvals and grants paid under the improvement grant system established by the Local Government and Housing Act 1989, and this question can be answered for some local authorities by comparing the cumulative totals of the grants they have approved with grants paid.

  A table prepared on this basis, covering those authorities which have provided the Department with complete information about their grant approvals and payments for the whole period from the start of the scheme in July 1990 to end-June 1992, has been deposited in the Library. The table covers mandatory renovation, houses in multiple occupation, common parts and disabled facilities grants. It relates to English local authorities as the Department is responsible for housing policy only in England.

  Ms. Janet Anderson
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what representations he has received concerning the need to review the standard spending assessment criteria for north-east Lancashire to reflect the demand for mandatory housing improvement grants.

  Mr. Robin Squire
  We have had a number of representations from local authorities in the north-east Lancashire area concerning the resources available to meet demand for mandatory housing improvement grants. None of these, however, was specifically concerned with standard spending assessments.

  Ms. Janet Anderson
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will list for each local authority area in England and Wales the percentage of their annual expenditure relating to the payment of mandatory housing improvements grants for each year since 1987.

  Mr. Baldry
  I have arranged for the available information to be placed in the Library of the House.

  Information for Wales is a matter for my right hon. Friend, the Secretary of State for Wales.

  Ms. Janet Anderson
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what advice he has given to local authorities in England and Wales about meeting the 218
  demand for mandatory housing improvement grants; and what information he has on the number of authorities that are reducing non-statutory provision of services in order to meet that demand.

  Mr. Baldry
  Advice was issued to all local housing authorities in England in the Department's Circular 12/90 about the funding arrangements for house renovation grants and the flexibility these provide to help authorities to meet the demand for mandatory grants. It is for authorities to decide the balance between their statutory and non-statutory expenditure within the total resources available to them. Information on this is not systematically collected by the Department. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales is responsible for giving advice to local authorities in Wales.

  Ms. Janet Anderson
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will list for each local authority area in England and Wales the number of mandatory housing improvement grant applications awaiting approval.

  Mr. Baldry
  This information is not available in the Department.

  City Challenge Bids
  Mr. Raynsford
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will publish(a)the criteria used to decide which of the city challenge bids were to be supported and which rejected and(b)the technical assessments made on each of the city challenge bids.

  Mr. Robin Squire
  The second round of city challenge, for which bids were required by 22 April, was open to all 57 urban priority areas. Fifty-four bids were received and each was assessed against the aims and criteria set out in the "City Challenge Bidding Guidance 1993–94", which was published in February 1992. A copy of the guidance is in the Library of the House. The assessment process included consideration of the written bids and analysis of projected outputs involving all the relevant Government Departments, regional presentations to officials and meetings with Ministers.

  Hedgerows
  Mr. Roger Evans
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what are the best estimates of the amount of loss of hedgerows in the United Kingdom in each of the last five years; and what proportion of the total amount of hedgerow the same represent.

  Mr. Maclean
  The information is not available in this form. The survey carried out by the Institute of Terrestrial Ecology as part of my Department's countryside survey 1990 contains the most up to date figures. These indicate that between 1984 and 1990 there was a net loss of some 121,000 km—around 76,000 miles—of hedgerows in Great Britain, making up 22 per cent. of the total hedgerow stock. This includes losses due to poor management as well as deliberate removal. There are no figures currently available for Northern Ireland.

  Chlorofluorocarbons
  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what consideration the EC Environment Council has given to the proposal drafted by the European
  219
  Commission concerning the effect of the Swedish Government's proposed ban on the use of products containing CFCs and HCFCs on Sweden's plans to join the European Community.

  Mr. Maclean
  None.

  Marine Pollution
  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement on the outcome of the recent meeting of the Paris convention on marine pollution; and if he will arrange for the United Kingdom papers presented to the meeting to be placed in the Library.

  Mr. Maclean
  The Commission established by the Convention for the Prevention of Marine Pollution from Land-Based Sources (the Paris Convention) held its annual meeting at official level in Paris on 15, 16 and 19 September, and its annual joint meeting with the Commission established by the Convention for the Prevention of Marine Pollution by Dumping from Ships and Aircraft (the Oslo Convention) on 17 to 19 September. The progress of work by the Paris Commission was reviewed and the final texts of a number of decisions and recommendations were established. I am placing in the Library of the House copies of the papers submitted by the United Kingdom to those meetings.

  A joint meeting of the Oslo and Paris commissions at ministerial level was also held in Paris on 21 and 22 September.I represented the United Kingdom. At this meeting we agreed a new Convention for the Protection of the Marine Environment of the North east Atlantic. I welcome the co-operation and commitment of all the constracting parties which have allowed us to achieve an agreement which establishes an effective framework for future protection of the marine environment from all kinds of pollution. We also adopted a declaration setting out the aims we shall all pursue under the convention and an action plan for protecting our seas into the next century.

  In addition we adopted the decisions and recommendations whose texts had been prepared by the official meetings the previous week. The United Kingdom did not present any papers to this meeting.

  Tameside Unitary Development Plan
  Mr. Bennett
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment when he expects to set up a public inquiry into the Tameside unitary development plan.

  Mr. Baldry
  Tameside metropolitan borough council will, in due course, put their unitary development plan on deposit and invite formal representations. If objections are made at this time the council will arrange an inquiry and the Secretary of State will be asked to appoint an inspector.

  Opencast Mining (Asthma)
  Ms. Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will consider the report by J M F Temple and A M Sykes on asthma and opencast mining in the British Medical Journal of 15 August 1992 before completing his review of MPG3.

  Mr. Baldry
  My Department will take into account all representations received that are material to revising the guidelines.

  Household Statistics
  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what percentage of English households in 1991(a)lacked or shared a bath or shower,(b)had no inside wc,(c)had no central heating or(d)lived in a density of more than one per room.

  Mr. Baldry
  The Office of Population Censuses and Surveys (OPCS) has to date published only a selection of 1991 census results in the county monitor series (CEN 91 CM).

  The England percentages given are provisional as they are derived directly from the rounded statistics in those monitors. National level results will be released by OPCS in November 1992 and more detailed results in county reports later this year and in 1993.

  Household percent

  a) +b) lacking/sharing a bath/shower and/or an inside wc

  1.7

  c) lacking central heating

  18.5

  d) living in a density of more than one per room

  2.1

  European Inspectors
  Mr. Dalyell
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what progress has been made with the concept of an inspectorate of European inspectors.

  Mr. Maclean
  The United Kingdom put a proposal for such an inspectorate to the Environment Council last December. It has attracted support from several quarters including a number of member states. The European Commission is considering whether to make a formal proposal; we shall continue to encourage them to do so.

  Waste Water Directive
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement on the definition of sensitive waters to be applied in compliance with the European Community municipal waste water directive.

  Mr. Maclean
  A consultation paper on the criteria for identifying sensitive areas and less sensitive areas under the Urban Waste Water Treatment Directive (UWWTD) and polluted waters under the Nitrates Directive was issued in March this year. We plan to publish the decisions made following consideration of responses in the autumn as part of a second consultation paper. This second paper will make proposals on the basis for identifying sensitive areas (UWWTD) and designating vulnerable zones (Nitrates Directive).

  Coastal Superquarries
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what is his Department's policy towards the creation of coastal superquarries.

  Mr. Baldry
  My Department considers that coastal superquarries may be able to make a useful contribution to future aggregate requirements in England. Their potential will be taken into account in the current review of "Mineral Planning Guidance Note 6" on the provision for aggregates in England and Wales. Individual applications will of course be considered on their own merits, having full regard to all the environmental implications.

  THORP Plant (Discharges)
  Mr. Chris Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment when he intends to publish, and in what form, the decisions or authorisation of discharges from the thermal oxide reprocessing plant at Sellafield, including any authorisation for Krypton 85; when such decisions will be made public; and whether he will place a copy in the Library.

  Mr. Maclean
  Her Majesty's inspectorate of pollution and the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food will shortly issue draft authorisations relating to the BN FL site at Sellafield, including the thermal oxide reprocessing plant (THORP) and Krypton 85 emissions, providing in accordance with normal practice the opportunity for local authorities, public bodies and members of the public to comment. Full consideration will be given to views that are expressed.

  I will arrange for copies of the draft authorisations, when issued, to be placed in the Library.

  Orimulsion
  Mr. Dafis
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make it his policy to set efficiency standards of between 95 and 100 per cent. efficiency for all electrostatic precipitators which will be operated by the power generators in conjunction with the burning of orimulsion; and if he will ensure that no power station can commence with the burning of orimulsion until such efficiency standards are fully met.

  Mr. Maclean
  The burning of orimulsion or other fuels at a power station requires an authorisation from HMIP. They set conditions and standards consistent with t he use of the best available techniques not entailing excessive cost to prevent or minimise pollution. These normally include limits on the concentration of particulate matter released, as this provides effective protection of the local environment and is easily checked. Efficiency standards for arrestment equipment may also be included, particularly if the process generates a significant amount of particulate matter.

  I therefore do not propose to set efficiency standards for electrostatic precipitators. No power station will be authorised unless the enforcing authority considers that it will be able to comply with the conditions which would be included in the authorisation.

  Mr. Dafis
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what assessment has been made by his Department on the levels of vanadium and nickel to be released into the atmosphere from the proposed burning of orimulsion at the Pembroke power station.

  Mr. Maclean
  Her Majesty's inspectorate of pollution (HMIP) is currently considering the application from National Power to burn orimulsion at Pembroke power station. HMIP has a duty to consider fully all available facts in coming to a decision on the determination of an application. In determining the application, an assessment of harm, and the question of limits and consents for releases, including vanadium and nickel, to all media are all being studied by HMIP, as are the techniques and cost implications for means of prevention.

  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment when he now expects Her Majesty's222
  inspectorate of pollution to announce its decision on the National Power application to burn orimulsion at Padiham power station; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Maclean
  HMIP has agreed to a request from National Power for an extension of the determination period so that they may present further information to assist its application. In agreeing to this extension, HMIP has indicated to National Power that on the information presented so far it does not believe that the burning of orimulsion at Padiham power station would be justified without further measures to protect the environment.

  Toxic Waste Incinerator, Howdon
  Mr. Trotter
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment when he expects to be in a position to announce his decision on the application to build a toxic waste incinerator at Howdon.

  Mr. Maclean
  The decision will be announced shortly.

  Hazardous Waste
  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what recent discussions his Department has had with its French and German counterparts concerning(a) the import of Australian origin PCB toxic waste into the European Community in August and (b) the transfrontier trade in hazardous waste between member states of the European Community.

  Mr. Maclean
  The transfrontier movement of hazardous wastes, including movements within the Community, is being discussed during the negotiations on the draft EC Waste Shipments Regulation. There have been no discussions with our Community partners about Australian PCB wastes.

  Landfill Sites
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what was the date of publication of his Department's guidance to the regulatory authorities on the nature of the completion certificate that will be issued to the owner of landfill sites.

  Mr. Maclean
  The Department has not yet published this guidance. We shall shortly be issuing a draft of advice on the subject of how surrender of licences should be judged, and we will be inviting comments on that draft.

  Oxleas Wood
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment when he last visited Oxleas wood, south-east London; when he last had communication with the European Commission regarding the east London river Crossing; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Baldry
  English Nature, my right hon. Friend's advisor on matters relating to sites of special scientific interest, has visited Oxleas wood on several occasions, most recently on 16 July 1992.

  There have been a number of exchanges between the Government and the Commission on the East London river crossing in connection with the application of the EIA directive, 85/337 EEC. In July 1992 the Commission announced its decision to issue a reasoned opinion under article 169 of the treaty of Rome. This has not yet been received.

  Drinking Water Inspectorate
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will bring forward proposals to enhance the independence of the drinking water inspectorate; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Maclean
  I refer the hon. Member to the answer given by my right hon. Friend on 15 July 1992 to my hon. Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, West (Mr. Jones),Official Report, column 858.

  Home Energy Efficiency Scheme
  Mr. Burden
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how many houses in the network installer area including the Birmingham, Northfield constituency have been improved under the home energy efficiency scheme since its inception in 1991.

  Mr. Maclean
  Within the network installer area which contains the hon. Member's constituency, 1,740 homes have benefited from HEES grant since 1 January 1991.

  Business Rates
  Mr. William O'Brien
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how many applications have been made for relief of hardship under section 49 of the Local Government and Finance Act 1988 from small businesses for each year since the introduction of the uniform business rate.

  Mr. Robin Squire
  Information on the number of applications for relief which have been received by local authorities is not available. In 1990–91, 13 authorities granted hardship relief totalling £23,582. Of the 346 authorities which have so far submitted returns for 1991–92, 47 have granted relief totalling £166,501.

  Housing Corporation
  Dr. Lynne Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make it his policy not to cut the Housing Corporation's £2 billion projected approved development programme.

  Mr. Baldry
  The Government's public expenditure plans will be announced by my right hon. Friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his autumn statement.

  Special Housing
  Mrs. Dunwoody
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement on the level of development of special housing units for the elderly and disabled from 1980 to 1992.

  Mr. Baldry
  Estimates of starts and completions of specialised housing units for the elderly and disabled in England are shown in the publication "Housing and Construction Statistics".

  Figures for 1980 to 1990 are in table 6.7 of "Housing and Construction Statistics, Great Britain—1980–1990" and figures for 1991 and the first six months of 1992 are in table 1.5 of "Housing and Construction Statistics, Great Britain June Quarter 1992"—issue 50.

  Copies of all these publications are in the Library.

  Housing Associations
  Mrs. Dunwoody
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how rents are set by housing associations in relation to average income, by region.

  Mr. Baldry
  For tenants of registered housing associations whose tenancies commenced after 15 January 1989, rents are set by individual housing associations in accordance with their overall rent policy. In setting rents for property provided with the help of public subsidy, associations must have regard to the tenants' guarantee, issued by the Housing Corporation, which requires them to set rents within the reach of those on low incomes, whether or not they are in receipt of housing benefit.

  For tenants of registered housing associations whose tenancy began before 15 January 1989 rents are set by the rent officer under the Rent Act 1977. He or she will take into account the age, character, locality and state of repair of dwelling whilst disregarding any shortage of similar accommodation in the area. Rent officers must disregard the personal circumstances—including incomes—of an individual.

  Peat Bogs
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what action he is taking to save peat bogs from destruction and to treat the threat as a national heritage crisis; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Maclean
  The Government fully recognise the need for conserving peat bogs which are of nature conservation importance and are actively taking steps to resolve conflicts between peat extraction and nature conservation. As my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary announced on 7 July 1992 in answer to a question from my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. Nicholson)Official Report column 158, my Department has set up a working group to advise on peat extraction and related matters. We have also commissioned research to prepare guidance on the rehabilitation of peatlands affected by peat extraction and, supported a number of initiatives to safeguard key bogs in England and Wales from further peat extraction.

  Council Tax
  Mr. Alfred Morris
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what representations he has had about council tax reductions for blind people; what replies he has sent; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Robin Squire
  The Department has received three letters about council tax reductions for blind people. One of these was from the right hon. Gentleman. A copy of my right hon. Friend's reply of 2 October is being sent to all local authorities. I will also arrange for a copy to be placed in the Library of the House.

  RECHAR
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what is the status of Nottinghamshire bids for RECHAR moneys from the EC currently blocked by his Department; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Baldry
  The Department is not blocking bids for RECHAR moneys in Nottinghamshire. The East
  225
  Midlands RECHAR programme committee has recently approved 16 projects which will attract grant worth approximately £2 million.

  Groundwater Levels
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment (1) what consultations he has had with the National Rivers Authority, the local authority associations and the water companies concerning statutory responsibility for monitoring and regulating rising and falling levels of groundwater underneath urban areas of England and Wales;

  (2) what representations he has had concerning responsibility for monitoring and regulating changes in groundwater level.

  Mr. Maclean
  My Department has regular contact with the National Rivers Authority (NRA) which, under the Water Resources Act 1991, has responsibilities for the general management of water resources in England and Wales. It monitors the quality and levels of groundwater, and regulates abstraction through licences. We receive representations about groundwater matters from time to time.

  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what steps are being taken by his Department in support of European Community policy on groundwater protection with particular regard to(a) education and training schemes and (b) improvement in public awareness.

  Mr. Maclean
  Following the EC ministerial declaration on groundwater in the Hague last year, continued work in England and Wales is being undertaken by the National Rivers Authority. The NRA published a consultation paper in November 1991 setting out proposals for the protection of groundwater, which has increased public awareness of groundwater.

  Second London Forum
  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what representations he has received since his announcement of 14 July of the establishment of a second London forum; by what means he expects the knowledge and opinion of London borough councils, all London statutory bodies and agencies, and London civic and amenity organisations will be represented on his proposed body: and if he will reconsider its proposed title.

  Sir George Young
  We have received a number of representations about our proposals for the London Forum. They include some from civic and amenity societies about the proposed name, and we have undertaken to consider this issue further. The forum will need to establish close working links with other organisations in London in the private, public and voluntary sectors, and we have proposed a formal consultative group to facilitate this process.

  Radioactive Waste
  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement on the present position of the application by UK Nirex Ltd. to seek permission to(a) sink bore holes and (b) construct an
  226
  underground rock research laboratory, in connection with plans to assess the suitability of the area adjoining Sellafield for a radioactive waste repository.

  Mr. Maclean
  Following UK Nirex's appeal against the Lake District Special Planning Board's refusal to allow its application for planning permission to drill boreholes 8 and 9 in the national park, and Cumbria county council's refusal of planning permission to drill borehole 11 outside the national park, a public inquiry is due to start on 24 November. I understand that the Lake District Special Planning Board has also refused permission to drill borehole 9A in the national park and that Cumbria county council has not yet reached a decision on Nirex's application to drill borehole 13. No application to construct an underground rock research laboratory has been made by Nirex.

  Environment Know-How Fund
  Ms. Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will list and give full details of projects agreed under the environment know-how fund announced in June 1991.

  Mr. Maclean
  The environmental know-how fund, which is a dedicated section of the know-how fund for central and eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union, is going well. Some £315,000 has now been spent or committed to over 25 projects, with a further £700,000 or so in the pipeline. Other western Governments are using the know-how fund as a model for their own.

  A list of the activities approved since April 1992 under the environmental know-how fund is currently being compiled and I will write to the hon. Member.

  Ozone-destroying Chemicals
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what new measures he intends to introduce to reduce the use of ozone-destroying chemicals.

  Mr. Maclean
  The United Kingdom, together with the EC, will be pressing for the phase out dates in the Montreal protocol for the production and consumption of ozone-depleting substances to be brought forward to 1 January 1996 at the latest. We will also be pressing for strict controls on HCFCs to be included in the revised protocol and for methyl bromide to be made a controlled substance. The United Kingdom is also seeking agreement, within the EC, to new phase out schedules for ozone depleting chemicals, which will be included in a revised EC regulation.

  Nottingham City Council
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how much capital receipts from council house sales and so on are currently held and unable to be spent by Nottingham city council due to current restrictions; and what were the figures for each of the years since the restrictions were introduced.

  Mr. Robin Squire
  Separate figures for set aside capital receipts are not held centrally. Such receipts are included within an authority's provision for credit liabilities. That provision is available for repaying debt and meeting payments under credit arrangements. The provision for credit liabilities, and the outstanding debt, reported by Nottingham city council were as follows:
  227

  Provision for Credit Liabilities

  Outstanding Debt

  (£ million)

  (£ million)

  1 April 1990

  41

  1—

  1 April 1991

  52

  355

  1 April 1992

  61

  356

  1Not available.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will lift restrictions on Nottingham city council to allow it to spend the capital receipts which it currently holds.

  Mr. Robin Squire
  Local authorities may currently spend 25 per cent. of their capital receipts from the sale of council houses and 50 per cent. of most other receipts. The balance may be used to meet credit liabilities. If authorities were allowed to spend a larger proportion of their receipts, the total of spending by the public sector and the public sector borrowing requirement would be increased. We therefore have no plans to change these arrangements.

TRADE AND INDUSTRY

  Advisory Committee on Business and the Environment
  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade when he expects to receive the second report from the Advisory Committee on Business and the Environment; and if he will make a statement on progress made to date in implementing the actions Her Majesty's Government agreed to undertake arising from recommendations made in the first Advisory Committee on Business and the Environment report.

  Mr. Eggar
  The Government received the second report of the Advisory Committee on Business and the Environment (ACBE) in July and published it together with the Government's response on 22 September. A separate report on progress in implementing the recommendations of ACBE's first report was published the same day. I am sending the hon. Member a copy of both publications, which have been placed in the Library of the House.

  Environmental Schemes
  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what is the proportion of awards to applications made by industries, respectively, to the(a) environmental management options scheme, (b) environmental technology innovations scheme and (c) Euroenviron scheme, as managed by his Department; and if he will indicate for each scheme the average lead time, respectively, between application and award or notification of rejection.

  Mr. Eggar
  The Department's three environmental technology support schemes all entail a two stage application process. The figures given below therefore indicate the proportion of applications rejected at each stage. The average lead times quoted include the time taken to find project partners and the time taken by applicants to submit Stage 2 applications and provide information needed to enable the appraisal to take place, as well as the time taken to undertake technical and financial appraisals by DTI and the scheme consultants.228
  The environmental technology innovation scheme (ETIS) is jointly administered by DTI and DoE and figures for applications referred to DoE are also included. The information requested is as follows:

  Departmental Environmental Management Options Scheme

  (Demos)

  Applications approved

  Proportion of stage 1 applications invited to stage 2:

  36 per cent.

  Of these, proportion as yet received by DTI:

  30 per cent.

  Stage 2 applications approved:

  19 per cent.

  Average lead times

  Stage 1 application to final approval:

  11 months

  Rejected at stage 1:

  9 weeks

  Rejected at stage 2:

  7 months

  Environmental Technology Innovation Scheme (ETIS)

  DTI

  Applications approved

  Proportion of Stage 1 applications invited to stage 2:

  19 per cent.

  Of these, proportion as yet received by DTI:

  35 per cent.

  Stage 2 applications approved:

  38 per cent.

  Average lead times

  Stage 1 application to final approval:

  10 months

  Rejected at stage 1:

  7 weeks

  Rejected at stage 2:

  5 months

  DoE

  Applications approved

  Proportion of stage 1 applications invited to stage 2:

  16 per cent.

  Of these, proportion as yet received by DoE:

  20 per cent.

  Proportion of stage 2 applications approved:

  86 per cent.

  Average lead times

  Stage 1 application to final approval:

  10 months

  Rejected at stage 2:

  None

  Note: At stage 1, a joint decision is taken as to which Department will deal with the application. Broadly speaking, DoE deal with applications which are standards related and DTI with the rest.

  Euroenviron

  Applications approved

  Proportion of stage 1 applications invited to stage 2:

  100 per cent.

  Of these, proportion as yet received by DTI:

  17 per cent.

  Proportion of stage 2 applications approved:

  75 per cent.

  Note:There are a number of applications in the pipeline which may yet proceed to stage 2.

  Average lead times

  From stage 1 to final approval:

  9 months

  Rejected at stage 1:

  None rejected

  Rejected at stage 2:

  None

  Note: If applicants invited to stage 2 do not proceed any further with their application after 12 months, they are notified that no further action will be taken until such time as they decide to resurrect their project proposal.

  Cleaner Technology Database
  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what plans he has for establishing a clearing house database of information on cleaner technology.

  Mr. Eggar
  My Department intends to support the establishment of a centre to provide information and advice on cleaner technology. A feasibility study carried
  229
  out this year showed a demand for it and work is currently in hand to determine the services to be offered and the mechanisms of operation.

  Industrial Waste
  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade how many copies of his new departmental publication "Cutting your Losses" on industrial waste minimisation have been printed; to whom they have been distributed or made available; and at what total cost to date.

  Mr. Eggar
  A total of 30,000 copies of "Cutting Your Losses 2" have been printed.

  They have been distributed or made available to a wide range of companies and organisations across the United Kingdom. These include targeted companies in the waste producing and waste management industries and in potentially highly polluting sectors of industry, trade associations and chambers of commerce, local authorities and waste disposal authorities, national business organisations, environmental voluntary organisations, technological institutions and research establishments, DTI regional offices, DoE and other Government Departments. In addition many companies and individuals requesting the booklet have received copies on an ad hoc basis.

  The total cost to date of producing and distributing the publication is £87,887.

  Eastern Europe
  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what commitments were made by the United Kingdom to provide financial and technical aid to the nuclear industries of eastern European countries during the meeting of OECD member states in Brussels held in mid-September.

  Mr. Eggar
  The meeting of the G24 nuclear safety working group on 14 and 15 September was held to develop further the arrangements for the coordination of nuclear safety assistance to the countries of eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union and not for the purpose of making additional commitments of assistance. The United Kingdom will be playing an important part in the provision of such assistance both bilaterally and through the European Community's PHARE and TAXIS programmes.

  Nuclear Accidents
  Mr. Llew Smiith
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade how many reportable incidents at the 8205 reprocessing plant at Sellafield have been brought to the attention of his Department and predecessor departments with responsibility for British Nuclear Fuels, since the system of reporting radiological incidents was established.

  Mr. Eggar
  The arrangements for reporting nuclear incidents at civil nuclear installations to my Department and its precursor were most recently revised in 1987. I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer given by my hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury (Mr. Goodlad) to a question from the then Member for Sherwood, Mr. Stewart,Official Report, 30 April 1987, c. 203–4.

  Since April 1987 there have been four "formally reportable" incidents involving Building B205. These
  230
  occurred in 1987, 1988, 1989 and 1992. Details have been contained in weekly site newsletters which have been made available to the Library of the House.

  Plutonium
  Mr. Llew Smith
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what communications his Department has received in regard to the environmental safety issues posed by the movement of plutonium since 10 August.

  Mr. Eggar
  My Department has received a number of such communications. The carriage of plutonium is only allowed subject to compliance with stringent international standards. Appropriate measures are taken to ensure the security of these movements.

  Deregulation
  Mr. Sproat
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what financial provisions, and how much, he has made within his Department in order to look at the potential for deregulation of each of the regulatory measures for which he has responsibility.

  Mr. Neil Hamilton
  Responsibility for identifying and exploiting the potential for deregulation is shared by Ministers and by all those advising Ministers on the formulation, implementation and enforcement of regulations. DTI has a departmental deregulation unit which is responsible to me for promoting progress within DTI under the Government's deregulation initiative. For the current financial year, the unit's running costs are approximately £100,000. The central deregulation unit is also located in my Department. It is responsible for driving forward the Deregulation Initiative across the whole of Whitehall generally by assisting all departmental deregulation units. The aim of the deregulation initiative is to reduce significantly administrative and regulatory burdens on business. The initiative has three main objectives: better existing regulation, by cutting unnecessary burdens on business and reducing compliance and enforcement costs; effective new regulation, by ensuring that potential costs and the views of business are accounted for in framing and implementing new regulation; and greater official awareness of the views and needs of business.

  Secondments
  Mr. Sproat
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will give the number of civil servants seconded from his Department to the private sector in each year since 11 June 1987 and the number of those from the private sector seconded to his Department in each year since 1987.

  Mr. Eggar
  The number of DTI staff on secondment to the private sector in each year since 11 June 1987 and the number of those from the private sector on secondment to DTI over the same period were as follows:

  11 June 1987–31 December Calendar Year

  Secondments to DTI

  Secondments from DTI

  1987

  35

  26

  1988

  37

  28

  1989

  44

  49

  1990

  44

  70

  1991

  43

  62

  Privatisation
  Mr. Keith Hill
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will list in respect of each privatisation since 1979 within his Department and the Department of Energy(a) the loss or profit of each company in the five years prior to privatisation and (b) the grants and loans made to the companies over the same period.

  Mr. Eggar
  The information cannot be provided except at disproportionate cost. Such information as is readily available on the finances of privatised bodies when they were in the public sector can be found in the following published sources:

  For the years up to and including 1989: Parts 2 of the annual volume "The Government's Expenditure Plans".

  For 1990 and 1991: the annual Statistical Supplement to the Autumn Statement.

  These were published by HMSO in the Command series and are available in the House of Commons Library.

  Car Industry Exhibition
  Mr. Mills
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade if his Department has considered an application for an exhibition relating to the car and car component industry to be displayed in the Upper Waiting Hall during the week starting 7 December.

  Mr. Sainsbury
  Yes, I look forward to opening the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders exhibition in the Upper Waiting Hall on 7 December 1992 in celebration of their 90th anniversary.

  Mersey Barrage
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade (1) what representations he has received concerning the use of the non-fossil fuel levy and the Mersey barrage project and funding proposals for it;

  (2) if he will make a statement on the funding of the Mersey barrage project; what representations he has received concerning funding instruments for the project; what proposals he has for a government contribution towards the cost of final design studios; and what consultations he has had with the private sector shareholders in the Mersey Barrage Company, shipping navigation and nature conservation interests concerning outstanding objections.

  Mr. Eggar
  Results of the work undertaken to date on the Mersey barrage, indicate that the construction of a tidal energy barrage across the river Mersey could generate electricity at 8.2 p/kWh (8 per cent. discount rate, 1991 prices). It now seems very unlikely that these costs could be substantially reduced by further work.

  The financing plan developed by the Mersey Barrage Company (MBC) is detailed in its phase III report. This envisages a 25-year contract with a purchase price of 6.75p/kWh as part of the a future round under the non-fossil fuel obligation. The plan assumes that the equivalent of 2p/kWh of this, to be discounted at zero per cent. in real terms, would be paid as advance payments during construction. This advance payment equates to a £700 million contribution towards the barrage's estimated construction costs of around £1 billion. The remaining 4.75p/kWh would be paid over the first 25 years of the barrage's operation.
  232
  My right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade and I met representatives of the MBC, including shareholders, to discuss possible ways forward for further studies into the proposed Mersey barrage, last July. We discussed suggestions by the MBC for a fourth stage of studies. It is estimated that these would cost £12 million, and would take the barrage up to the stage of requiring parliamentary approval for construction, subject to the availability of an appropriate funding mechanism.

  As well as electricity generation, a Mersey barrage has a number of non energy costs and benefits, such as improved leisure facilities and an effect on local wildlife and shipping, that need to be considered. The most recent studies of the barrage were aimed at reducing the uncertainty associated with these issues, and I was aware of the findings of the work. In coming to a decision on further funding for the barrage there was a need to weigh the cost to the electricity consumer of financing the barrage, with consideration of the other costs and benefits of the barrage. On balance my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade and I told the MBC that we could not justify the expenditure of public money for the studies they suggested.

  We await the final report of the most recent studies into the proposed barrage, and will, of course, consider any further proposals from the MBC.

  European Energy Chapter
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade on what date the basic protocol of the European energy chapter was signed on behalf of the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Eggar
  The basic agreement of the European energy chapter is currently under negotiation.

  Companies House
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will publish the terms of reference, method of appointment and cost of the consultancy study into the future operation and role of Companies house.

  Mr. Neil Hamilton
  Terms of reference for the consultancy study on the future operation and role of Companies house were contained in a Department of Trade and Industry press notice issued on 14 October. Consultants for this work were engaged using the Department's normal competitive tendering procedures, under which consultancy costs remain commercially confidential.

  Research and Technology
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade how much funding is currently allocated by his Department towards long-term research programmes for research and technology organisations; and if he will list the research and technology organisations currently given funding for such research.

  Mr. Leigh
  The funding currently committed for research programmes at research and technology organisations is £29 million during the current year and the following two years. The organisations currently receiving support for their research programmes are shown on the attached list.
  233
  Research and Technology Organisations currently receiving DTI funding:

  AMTRI: Advanced Manufacturing Technology Research Institute

  BHRA: British Hydromechanics Research Association

  BCRA: British Ceramic Research Association

  BCIRA: British Cast Iron Research Association

  BGIRA: British Glass Industry Research Association

  BLC: British Leather Confederation

  BMT: British Maritime Technology

  BTTG: British Textile Technology Group

  BNF Metals Technology Centre

  CATRA: Cutlery Allied Trades Association

  Contract Flooring Association

  ERA Technology Ltd.

  FCRA: Fabric Care Research Association

  Fulmer Materials Technology

  FIRA: Furniture Industry Research Association

  MIRA: The Motor Industry Research Association

  NCC: National Computing Centre

  PERA: Production Engineering Research Association

  PIRA: Paper., Printing Packaging Research Association

  PRA: The Paint Research Association

  Rapra Technology Ltd.

  Ricardo Consulting Engineers Ltd.

  SATRA Footwear Technology Centre

  SCRATA: Steel Castings Research Trade Association

  SIRA Ltd.

  SRAMA: Spring Research & Manufacturers Association

  TWI: The Welding Institute

  TRADA: Timber Research and Development Association

  Mr. Wigley
  'To ask the President of the Board of Trade what plans he has to establish an Industrial Research and Technology Council.

  Mr. Leigh
  No plans exist to establish such a council.

  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade (1) if he will make it his policy to require Faraday centres to operate as a network, to include other research and technology organisations and to provide a full service of assistance with innovation;

  (2) what steps are being undertaken by his Department to enhance the status, role and capability of intermediate organisations engaged in technology development and transfer.

  Mr. Leigh
  My Department is currently consulting widely on the needs of industry which could be met by intermediate organisations and on what improvements, if any, are necessary to enhance their present capabilities. The Faraday proposals, presented to Government by His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales's working group on innovation, and their possible networking are being considered as part of this process.

  A pilot programme has already been initiated to test the feasibility of enhancing the training and technology transfer role of five intermediate organisations via the training of postgraduate students. I refer the right hon. Gentleman to my Department's press release of 4 June 1992 (P/92/346).

  Mr. Dalyell
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a statement on the work that his information unit has commissioned for Segal Quince Wickstead on the difficulties technologists have in convincing providers of finance of the merits of their case; and what action he is taking to encourage the development within banks of the expertise needed to recognise the soundness of technological proposals.

  Mr. Leigh
  Following discussions about support for innovative firms between the then Secretary of State and 234
  the clearing banks, the DTI innovation unit commissioned, in April 1992, a market assessment study of smaller firms' needs for better information about lending. The consultants, Segal Quince Wickstead, reported in August 1992 that whilst there is already a considerable amount of helpful information and advice already available in the market, little is directed towards the specific requirements of technology-based firms.

  The Segal Quince Wickstead report has been circulated to about 30 key providers of capital and advice to small firms for their comments which are presently being received. When these have been analysed, my Department will discuss the conclusions with a consortium of banks and venture capital sources to determine what further action might be taken, hopefully on a joint basis.

  My Department's innovation unit, in common with other parts of the Department such as small firms division and the regional offices, maintains a constant dialogue with providers of capital for small firms. The Department has supplied speakers for training courses organised internally by banks for their own staff and also to a wide range of other seminars and events concerned with improving understanding of this important topic.

  Innovation and Manufacturing
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what efforts are being undertaken by his Department to strengthen the ties between innovation and manufacturing in the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Leigh
  DTI continues to encourage innovation in manufacturing industry through regional and development grant schemes, technology transfer and best practice awareness programmes and through the work of its innovation unit. The unit works closely with industry to educate the financial and business community about the importance nationally of innovation. The president's recent reorganisation of the Department has created sectoral divisions which, through an active dialogue with companies, will be better placed to champion the needs of industry throughout Government. This joint approach with industry is geared to improve United Kingdom firms' competitiveness, both nationally and internationally.

  Civil Research and Development
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what measures are currently undertaken to encourage increased expenditure by United Kingdom companies on civil research and development.

  Mr. Leigh
  The Government seek to encourage companies to invest more in research and development by creating the right economic climate, for example, by reducing the tax burden on business. The main rate of corporation tax, at 33 per cent. is now the lowest in any G7 or EC country. In addition, the Government provide some £300 million per annum to United Kingdom companies through a variety of schemes designed to stimulate additional expenditure on research and development. The Government also seek to educate the financial community about the importance of research and development through, for example, the work of the DTI's innovation unit.

  Airports
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will refer to the Monopolies and Mergers Commission the cross-subsidies that Stansted airport receives from Heathrow and Gatwick airports and the effect on other regional airports; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Neil Hamilton
  I have no plans to refer this question to the Monopolies and Mergers Commission. Under the Airports Act 1986 the economic regulation of airports is a matter for the Civil Aviation Authority. The authority has discretionary powers to prevent subsidies which might harm other airports.

  Postal Services
  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade over what parts of the United Kingdom and over approximately what proportion of the area of the United Kingdom the delivery of letters and parcels is still combined at the point of final delivery.

  Mr. Leigh
  The information is not readily available to answer the hon. Member's question precisely. In major conurbations most, if not all, deliveries are exclusively letter or parcel. Parcel Force currently chooses to contract out parcel delivery to Royal Mail where this makes economic sense. The combined service mainly occurs in predominantly rural areas of the United Kingdom and, despite covering fairly large areas of the country, only relates to a very low population density.

  Assisted Area Status
  Ms. Janet Anderson
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what representations he has received concerning assisted area status for the boroughs of Rossendale and Blackburn.

  Mr. Sainsbury
  My noble Friend Baroness Denton met a deputation of Members of Parliament and local government officials on 5 October. Written representations which include Rossendale and/or Blackburn have been received from the following organisations:

  Lancashire county council;

  Blackburn borough council;

  Hyndburn and Rossendale borough councils (for Accrington and Rossendale travel-to-work area);

  Rossendale borough council;

  A consortium of East Lancashire boroughs (Blackburn, Burnley, Pendle, Hyndburn, Ribble Valley, and Rossendale).

  In addition, numerous letters of support from local businesses were included with the submissions from Blackburn, Hyndburn and Rossendale.

  Footwear
  Ms. Janet Anderson
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade (1) if he has now received from the European Commission an analysis of the economic case for the proposal to impose quantitative restrictions on imports of Chinese footwear;

  (2) what representations he has received concerning the European Commission's proposal to impose quantitative
  236
  restrictions on imports of Chinese footwear; and what has been the balance of those representations between support for and opposition to the proposal.

  Mr. Needham
  I have received many representations about the Commission's proposal divided broadly between footwear manufacturers who, with the exception of the largest United Kingdom producer, supported it and consumer, retail and importing interests who opposed it. I have recently written to all hon. Members who have expressed an interest in the matter to explain why, in the light of these representations and of the Commission's further economic analysis presented in late July, the Government have decided to oppose the proposal. A copy of my letter has been placed in the Library of the House.

  Cloth Imports
  Ms. Janet Anderson
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what representations he has received concerning the import of cloth treated with pentachlorophenol into the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Needham
  We have received a number of letters calling for a ban on imports of pentachlorophenol-treated cloth and for a relaxation of effluent emission standards. We do not regard an import ban as practicable or consistent with the polluter-pays principle. Effluent emission standards are a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment.

  Trade Statistics
  Mr. John D. Taylor
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what percentage of the United Kingdom's trade in each of the past five years was in (1) US dollars, (2) sterling, (3) ECUs, (4) French francs, (5) German marks, (6) Danish kroner, (7) Irish punts, (8) Italian lire, (9) Greek drachmas, (10) Dutch guilders, (11) Spanish pesetas, (12) Belgian francs and (13) Portuguese escudos.

  Mr. Needham
  The information is not available. For purposes of official statistics all United Kingdom trade is valued in sterling.

  Wind Power
  Dr. Lynne Jones
  To ask the President of the Board of Trade what is his Department's assessment of the proportion of United Kingdom energy requirements that could be supplied by wind power; and what action is being taken by the Government to make maximum use of this energy source.

  Mr. Eggar
  The Government is encouraging the exploitation of the potential for wind energy in the United Kingdom consistent with economic and environmental constraints, through measures including a comprehensive programme of research, development and demonstration and the orders under the non-fossil fuel obligation. The contribution from wind power is subject to many uncertainties including future fuel prices. My Department has estimated it could be equivalent to up to 10 per cent. of current electricity consumption by 2025.

Preamble
Reassembling after the Summer Recess, the House met at half-past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Chelmsford.

Lord Eatwell
John Leonard Eatwell, Esquire, having been created Baron Eatwell, of Stratton St Margaret in the County of Wiltshire, for life—Was, in his robes, introduced between the Baroness Blackstone and the Lord Desai, and made the solemn Affirmation.
The Earl of Balfour—Took the Oath.

Messages from the Queen
2.48 p.m.
The Earl of Airlie: My Lords, I have the honour to present to your Lordships two messages from Her Majesty the Queen signed by her own hand. The first message is as follows:
"I have received your Address praying that the Summer Time Order 1992 be made in the form of the draft laid before your House.
"I will comply with your request."
The second message is as follows:
"I have received your Address and, relying on the wisdom of my Parliament, I desire that my prerogative, in so far as it relates to the succession of peerages, should not stand in the way of consideration by Parliament, during the present Session, of any measure that may be introduced providing for an amendment of the law relating to hereditary peerages."

Traffic Offences: Automatic Cameras
2.50 p.m.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes Baroness Gardner of Parkes asked Her Majesty's Government:
How many police forces have introduced (a) speed cameras and (b) traffic light cameras, how many cameras are currently in operation and what is the total number of offences recorded to date.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Earl Ferrers): My Lords, on 1st October 1992, three forces in England and Wales were equipped with seven speed cameras and 15 forces were equipped with 35 traffic light cameras. Cameras are operated at over 150 sites. Information on the number of offences which have been recorded is not yet available.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that most helpful reply. I have noticed that there are signs in connection with some of these cameras but I understand that there is a difficulty about authorising the signs for use by all the highway authorities. Can he confirm that such an authorisation has now been given, or are the notices associated with the cameras purely experimental? I am sure he will
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appreciate that it is the deterrent effect of these cameras that we wish to see rather than the catching of offenders.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, the point of the cameras is of course to catch the offenders. If they deter some of your Lordships as well, then that is a double whammy. With regard to the question about notices, I cannot give my noble friend the answer but I shall find out and let her know.
Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, can the noble Earl indicate whether any cameras were situated outside No.10 today in order to measure the speed at which Mr. Heseltine made his escape? Can he indicate whether the total number of offences committed since April of this year has decreased since the cameras were introduced?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, the noble Lord's first question was rather frivolous and I do not think requires an answer. With regard to his second question, the cameras were introduced on 1st July. As I explained in my original reply, we do not have the information about the number of offences which have occurred since they came into operation.
Lord Sefton of Garston: My Lords, can the noble Earl tell the House whether any instructions or guidance are issued to the police in regard to the use of these meters? If so, will he publish them in the Library?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, it is not usually customary to publish all police guidance. The basic point is that the camera is put up and then works automatically. The cameras can record about 360 offences in an hour whereas the normal policeman can deal with only about three or four.
Lord Sefton of Garston: My Lords, are instructions issued in regard to their use? I am informed by a fairly prominent chief constable that no instructions are issued as to their use.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, there are certainly instructions with the cameras. Whether the police have been given particular instructions as to how to use the instructions on the cameras I cannot tell the noble Lord.
Lord Geddes: My Lords, can my noble friend say whether the police have deployed any dummy cameras in connection with this matter?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, these cameras can be erected on poles. One can have more poles than cameras. A pole may have a camera on it or it may not. The camera may not be in the same place today as it was yesterday. If those are dummies, my noble friend can conclude that they are in operation. But the point is that several—say six—sites can be serviced by one camera.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, is it true that in the trials so far thousands—literally thousands—of motorists have been caught for various offences, including speeding and going through red traffic

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lights? Are all those thousands of people to be prosecuted; and, if so, will the police have time to do anything else?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, the purpose of these cameras is to deal with speeding and traffic light offences. It may be that in the course of photographing a person turning right when he should not have turned right through a red light another fault such as careless driving or dangerous driving will show up. The point is to prosecute those who create the offence of jumping the red light or exceeding the speed limit. Anything else is incidental.
Lord Teviot: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that this system has been operating in New South Wales for quite a long time and has been extremely successful in minimising accidents, including fatal accidents?
Earl Ferrers: Yes, my Lords, the principle has been used in a number of other countries and has been successful. If one is a motorist one may feel that it is uncomfortable, but if one is concerned with saving lives the cameras have a very good record.
Lord Stallard: My Lords, can the Minister confirm press reports that many of these poles have been equipped not with a camera, because the cameras are not available, but with a flashlight arrangement? This flashes now and again to give the impression that a camera is near. Can he confirm that that is true? How many of those are in use?
Earl Ferrers: No, my Lords, I cannot confirm that, but it sounds a very good idea.
Lord Mackie of Benshie: My Lords, can the Minister say whether these cameras—dangerous instruments—work at night?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, I think the noble Lord had better try to test it at night and see.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, can my noble friend confirm that the idea of these cameras is to save police time? I make this point particularly in relation to a previous question. The photographs will speak for themselves and the police will not have to spend so much time giving evidence.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, my noble friend is perfectly right. The whole point is that these cameras can deal with a much larger number of offences than the police themselves can deal with. The majority will be dealt with by a fixed penalty notice of £40.

Property Services Agency International
2.56 p.m.
Lord Merrivale Lord Merrivale asked Her Majesty's Government:
In view of the forthcoming cessation of the functions of Property Services Agency International in Gibraltar, what plans they have for retraining PSAI staff, training for senior posts and restructuring the agency.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Strathclyde): My Lords, as from April 1993 PSA International will be replaced by a contractor appointed by MoD. PSA International has undertaken to help redundant staff find jobs and to give training to enhance their skills. We hope that the contractor selected will offer many of them jobs. Their skills have been brought to the attention of the tenderers.
Lord Merrivale: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Can he say how many persons currently employed by PSA International are being transferred to the MoD with their work? Have any final decisions been reached in the medium term as to what work will be available in Gibraltar, and what steps are being taken to find alternative employment in lieu of Ministry of Defence work?
Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I can tell my noble friend that those who are not transferred to the MoD will face redundancy. However, it is too early to assess the numbers that will be taken on by the MoD. Jobs will be sought in other government departments as well as the MoD.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, given that the MoD, to which PSA International staff can be seconded, is making its own staff redundant; given that Tarmac, to which PSA's 1,800 home staff are being seconded, will make half of them redundant; and given that the construction industry is currently making thousands of similarly qualified professional staff redundant—all good, hardworking, public spirited staff who will now have nowhere else to go—will the Government, who are laying waste our construction, mining, and manufacturing industries and the economy, please encourage the responsible Ministers to join these PSA staff and those in the rest of the country who face redundancy?
Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, that question has nothing to do with the PSA in Gibraltar.
Lord Merrivale: My Lords, will the Government publish details as to the impact on the local economy caused by decisions taken now and in the future by Her Majesty's Government? I believe I am right in saying that the Minister of State for the Armed Forces, Mr. Archibald Hamilton, is currently investigating this subject and is due to report on the matter. Will this information be available to the public at large and also to Members of both Houses of Parliament?
Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, it is too early to tell what the effect will be on the Gibraltarian economy. I say that because the contract has not been given to anyone. In my initial reply I said that retraining would be offered to local staff and that expatriate staff will be brought back to the United Kingdom where jobs will be sought for them. I shall have to ascertain whether a report is to be made by the Ministry of Defence. Perhaps I may write to my noble friend on the matter.
Lord Shepherd: My Lords, the Minister made no reference to the Government of Gibraltar. Can he tell

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the House what consultations Her Majesty's Government have had with that government? In recognition of the dramatic way in which the Government and people of Gibraltar have overcome many of the vicissitudes caused by the collapse of the naval dockyard in Gibraltar, what consultations have the Government had with the Gibraltarian Government?
Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I am sure that the Gibraltarian Government have been kept fully informed about what is happening with PSA International. However, I should like to make the point that the local staff will be offered retraining in a substantial number of skills, including HGV training, forklift operating, welding, joinery, and glazing and re-glazing. That will give them an opportunity to find employment in Gibraltar.
Lord Boyd-Carpenter: My Lords, can my noble friend say what is the attitude of the Government of Gibraltar? Are they happy with the proposal?
Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I cannot tell my noble friend what their attitude is.
Lord Shepherd: My Lords, the Minister could be a little more explicit. He used the words "We hope" and referred to an assurance, but can he say whether or not there have been consultations with the Government of Gibraltar in the matter?
Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I cannot confirm that the opinion of the Gibraltarian Government was taken explicitly on the matter.
Lord Bruce of Donington: My Lords, perhaps I may press the Minister a little further on the matter. Is he really saying that Her Majesty's Government are unaware of the attitude of the Government of Gibraltar'? If they are not aware of it, are they not neglecting their proper job?
Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, this Government's interest is in the British taxpayer. It is for that reason—protecting the interests of the British taxpayer—that the decision has been made on PSA International.
Lord Boyd-Carpenter: My Lords, is my noble friend really saying that the Government do not know what is the attitude of the Government of Gibraltar? Is he really saying that Her Majesty's Government have acted in complete ignorance of the views of the relevant local government?
Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, the point I am trying to make is that this is a decision for the British Government and for the MoD locally. The Government have ensured that the locally employed staff will be offered training so that they can find new jobs.
Lord Jenkins of Putney: My Lords, is the Minister aware that the impression he is giving as a result of his answers is not merely that the Government do not know, but that they do not care? Is that not all too typical of the Government's activities and actions in many matters?
Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, if the British Government did not care, we would not be offering the kind of skills retraining which will give so many opportunities to the people who, unfortunately, will be made redundant in Gibraltar.
Lord Stallard: My Lords, can the Minister tell the House whether the British Cabinet was made aware of the situation and whether it was a full Cabinet decision?
Lord Strathclyde: No, my Lords.

Business of the House
3.6 p.m.
Lord Hesketh: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I should like to make a moderately short Business Statement. As your Lordships will by now be aware, the Government are not proposing to invite the House to go into Committee on the British Coal and British Rail (Transfer Proposals) Bill today; nor, should I say, do the Government intend to set down the Committee stage for tomorrow. In view of the rearrangement of business, I have caused to be circulated an indication of how it is proposed that today's business will be conducted. Perhaps I may briefly outline that indication.
First—and indeed the only business on the Order Paper—will be the report from the Committee on House of Lords Offices which will follow this Business Statement. It is then proposed, subject to the agreement of the House, that my noble friend Lady Denton of Wakefield will repeat a Statement to be made in another place on the coal industry. As tradition has it, that will be at a convenient time after 3.30 p.m.
In the event of the business that follows this Statement not lasting until the Statement appears from another place, I propose to adjourn the House during pleasure, in the first instance, until 20 minutes to four o'clock. Immediately following the conclusion of that Statement, my noble friend the Lord Privy Seal will, with the leave of the House, make a further Business Statement in which he will explain why the Government felt it necessary to rearrange the Order Paper at short notice today and also for tomorrow.
It may be helpful if, at this stage, I outline the business for tomorrow. At present, the only item on the Order Paper is the Committee stage of the Boundary Commissions Bill. However, I anticipate that your Lordships may, over the course of the day, identify a possible means of supplementing that business. It may indeed be that the House will become aware of some of those possible means during the course of our proceedings later today.
Your Lordships will know that I am in many ways an opponent of change. Radical change enthuses me even less; and radical change to the Order Paper is something that I have attempted to avoid at all costs. In those circumstances, I feel it incumbent upon me, as Government Chief Whip, to apologise to all in your Lordships' House for the fact that, due to the circumstances that arose, we found it necessary to

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effect a readjustment of the business at this late stage. My noble friend the Leader of the House will explain the reasons for this immediately after the Statement on the coal industry. At that stage, I am sure that the House will understand why such precipitate action was called for.
Finally, I should like to say a word about food—without which the House would not be able to continue to function properly. I should like to reassure those of your Lordships who have made arrangements to dine in the House tonight that dinner will remain on in the Dining Room. However, in the pursuit of efficiency, the Refreshment Department wishes to provide that dinner in the Barry Room and, in an act of great generosity, the department will pick up the differential in cost between the former and the latter. The Refreshment Department remains a beacon of stability in a changing world.
3.8 p.m.
Lord Williams of Elvel: My Lords, I am sure that the House will accept the apology of the Government Chief Whip, the noble Lord, Lord Hesketh, for the change in the Order Paper. In accepting that apology on behalf of my noble friends, I can only say that the change is greeted with the greatest resentment. It has been imposed unilaterally; it has not been agreed through the usual channels. It has deprived your Lordships of a debate on the coal industry which many of us were expecting to have at the Committee stage of the British Coal and British Rail (Transfer Proposals) Bill which the Government had set down for business this afternoon.
I can only say to the noble Lord the Government Chief Whip that, when I make this relatively brief intervention, it will not be the last intervention that comes from this side of the House. We shall take every opportunity to ensure that our views are properly expressed and taken into account by the Government. We shall also make sure that we fill the gap in tomorrow's business, to which the noble Lord referred, unless the Government do a complete U-turn on the coal-pit closures. I give that warning to the noble Lord the Government Chief Whip while accepting the apology that he offered to the House.
Lord Tordoff: My Lords, while accepting that apology and appreciating the difficulty in which the Government have placed the Government Chief Whip, and while not dissenting in any way from what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Williams, we will reserve our fire from these Benches until we come to the Statement by the Lord Privy Seal.
Lord Callaghan of Cardiff: My Lords, I had hoped that we would hear from the government Chief Whip. While I have no objection to not proceeding with the Bill—I hope that the Government will take it away and slit its ugly throat, as was said on a previous occasion—can the government Chief Whip give us an assurance that, should the Opposition or some noble Lord table a Motion, the Government will allow it to be included on the Order Paper and taken tomorrow?
Lord Hesketh: My Lords, I am grateful for the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Callaghan. I can confirm to the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Elvel, the reference I made in my Business Statement in anticipation of matters not yet on the Order Paper. I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Callaghan too that there is no question of there being any prevention of any Motion being tabled on the Order Paper tomorrow.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, that is all very well. As my Front Bench accepted, I too accept the apology. But when business is taken off the Order Paper it is a serious matter. Many noble Lords will have spent the weekend preparing for today's debate. It may be that they will not be able to take part in the debate tomorrow. It has therefore gravely inconvenienced those Members who came today prepared to debate the matter and who may not be able to debate it tomorrow.
Had the decision been agreed between the two Front Benches, that might have produced a better feeling. As it was imposed unilaterally by the government side, there is cause for grave concern. Bearing in mind the extreme problems it will cause to some noble Lords, I hope that the Chief Whip can assure us that this will never happen again without proper consultation and agreement between all sides of the House.
Lord Hesketh: My Lords, I am only the Chief Whip. However, my mother taught me at an early age that "never" is a dangerous word. I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, that the reason there are two Business Statements this afternoon is in order to satisfy the burden of his argument after the statement on coal. The Leader of the House will then make his Business Statement, which I hope will address the problems raised by the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, I support the Statement made by the government Chief Whip. Your Lordships may think it would be wholly idle and premature to enter into a Committee stage on the Bill before there had been a substantive debate on the question of the pit closures. Some noble Lords may seek an objective reappraisal, some, for various reasons, may wish to question the manner in which the decision was taken, and some may wish to discuss these matters in objective debate in your Lordships' House. At this stage it would be futile to pre-empt that objective discussion. I congratulate my noble friend the Chief Whip on his decision.
Lord Colnbrook: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that I have received a personal letter from the General Secretary of the TUC, Mr. Norman Willis? Other Members of your Lordships' House may have received the same letter. Mr. Willis urges me to use my best endeavours to persuade the Government to postpone discussion on the Bill set down for today until we have had a statement from the Government on national energy strategy. I do not know whether my noble friend can explain why the Opposition are grumbling.
Lord Hesketh: My Lords, I am always grateful for any information from my noble friend Lord Colnbrook. Although the Whip's Office may have a certain reputation, I can assure the noble Lord that we do not interfere with your Lordships' mail.
Lord Shepherd: My Lords, can the Leader of the House or the Chief Whip give a firm assurance that there are no procedural difficulties as regards the tabling of a Motion for business tomorrow afternoon?
Lord Hesketh: My Lords, the answer is, yes, there is no difficulty.
Noble Lords: My Lords, it should he "no".
Lord Hesketh: My Lords, the answer should have been "yes" without further addition or embellishment. The answer is no, with embellishment.

House of Lords Offices: Select Committee Report
3.15 p.m.
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Ampthill): My Lords, I beg to move that the Second Report from the Select Committee on House of Lords Offices be agreed to.
I do not believe that the House would wish me to comment on items 1 to 15 in the report but I will of course try to answer any questions which your Lordships may raise in connection with them.
I draw the particular attention of the House to item 16 which reads as follows:
"ACCOMMODATION
The Committee has endorsed a decision of the Administration and Works Sub-Committee that there should be negotiations with the Commons to exchange the third floor of No.7 Millbank for Nos.6–7 Old Palace Yard and certain other accommodation. The Committee has agreed that its previous decisions about No.7 Millbank be set aside should the negotiations be successful".
The House will be pleased to learn that agreement has been reached with the Commons on the proposed exchange. In addition, five rooms in the Palace of Westminster will be made available to this House by the Commons in the near future. No.6–7 Old Palace Yard is a listed building and will be carefully restored and redecorated in consultation with English Heritage and other relevant authorities.
I know that the House will wish to express its gratitude to the Leader of the House and to the Government Chief Whip for their help in the negotiations with the Commons and to the various Commons authorities for their co-operation.
The House will also be pleased to learn that four rooms in the south return have now been vacated by the police, who have moved to No.1 Canon Row. Those rooms have been renovated to provide office accommodation for peers and will shortly be ready for occupation. It has been generally acknowledged that the lack of suitable office accommodation for peers has become intolerable. I believe that the measures which I have described will help to improve substantially in the future the accommodation and working conditions of Members of this House.
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Perhaps I may take this opportunity to bring the House up to date on works carried out during the Recess. I am sure that your Lordships will agree that the new under-gallery lighting which has been installed here in the Chamber is a great improvement and that the new remotely-controlled TV cameras are not too obtrusive. The cameras are controlled from a new control room in the basement of No.7 Millbank and so we have been able to remove the unsightly Portakabins from Black Rod's garden. Also in the Chamber many minor repairs have been carried out to the frets, and the frescos above the Throne and the Strangers' Gallery have been cleaned. Finally, your Lordships will be pleased to hear that a complete overhaul of the heating and ventilation system is all but completed. All that remains is to fit some carbon filters which have still to be delivered. The remaining work will be done soon, over a weekend.
The replacement of the microphones and the sound system in the Chamber remains to be done. We made a deliberate decision to await the outcome of trials being carried out in another place before embarking on any change. If all goes well with those trials we would expect to do the work next Summer Recess and deal with the dreadful acoustics of the Moses Room at the same time.
Outside the Chamber phase III of the kitchen enhancement has been completed, work progresses to time on the Victoria Tower and the pilot scheme for roof repairs has started. A particular effort has been made this year to increase routine maintenance and repairs throughout the House of Lords. Finally, the very outdated and inefficient clock control circuit has been replaced and I sincerely hope that in future all the clocks will be working and will be telling the same time.
I believe that the House will wish to congratulate most sincerely Black Rod and the Director of Parliamentary Works and their staff on all that has been achieved, especially bearing in mind the interruption they suffered because of the recall of Parliament last month. We must also thank Mr. Bibbiani and the Refreshment Department for the services the staff in that department provided during the recall while building work was going on round about them. I commend the report to your Lordships.
Moved, That the Second Report from the Select Committee be agreed to. (HL Paper 20).—(The Chairman of Committees.)
Following is the report referred to:
1. MEMBERSHIP OF SUB-COMMITTEES.
The Committee has appointed Lord Hollick to fill the vacancy on the Library and Computers Sub-Committee.
2. ADVISORY PANEL ON WORKS OF ART
The Committee has appointed the following Lords as members of the Advisory Panel on Works of Art—

B. Birk

L. Charteris of Amisfield

L. Crathorne

B. David

L. Fanshawe of Richmond

L. Gibson (Chairman)

V. Hood

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L. Moran

L. Renton

B. Trumpington.

3. EXPENDITURE ON SECURITY
The Committee has agreed that the Commons should be invited to agree that the shared cost of security. in the Parliamentary Estate should be apportioned on the same 40: 60 basis as works expenditure from the start of the next financial year 1993–94; and that a review of security expenditure should be undertaken, if possible in co-operation with the House of Commons, to assess the mechanisms for control over expenditure and to examine the opportunities for more economic and efficient use of manpower without jeopardising security.
4. SECONDMENT OF STAFF
The Committee has agreed that the Clerk of the Parliaments should be authorised to arrange secondments of staff to outside organisations and exchanges of staff with such organisations.
5. CURATOR AND ASSISTANT CURATOR OF WORKS OF ART
The Committee has agreed that allied service arrangements for works of art should be ended. The posts of Curator and Assistant Curator of Works of Art are at present held by staff of English Heritage. Subject to the agreement of the House of Commons Commission, responsibility for these posts will be assumed by the two Houses from a date to be agreed. The posts will be funded under the Works Votes in the same proportions as other joint works expenditure, namely 40 per cent. House of Lords and 60 per cent. House of Commons. It is proposed that the posts should be tilled by the existing post holders on secondment from English Heritage.
6. PARLIAMENTARY OFFICE OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
The Committee has agreed that the House of Lords should meet 22 per cent. of the cost of funding the Parliamentary Office of Science and Technology (POST) for three years and should provide accommodation for POST staff on the third floor of 7 Millbank. The remaining 78 per cent. of the cost will be met by the House of Commons.
The proposed funding will meet the salary costs of the Director, a Secretary and three scientists. In return, POST will undertake work such as "Technology Assessments" where an exhaustive analysis of an issue is carried out and possible policy options identified. The funding will cover work for select committees, except that committees should pay directly for any work commissioned by them which could not be undertaken by POST's core staff. POST will provide costings of its services, to facilitate the necessary value-for-money which ought to precede a decision on its long-term future.
7. SMOKING POLICY FOR HOUSE OF LORDS STAFF
The Committee has taken note with approval of a smoking policy for House of Lords staff which has been adopted by the House of Lords Whitley Committee. The policy is primarily directed at the rooms in which staff work, which in future will generally be "no smoking" areas unless the staff concerned request otherwise.
The policy will have no immediate implications for members of the House, except when visiting staff in their offices. But the Committee has agreed that the Administration and Works Sub-Committee should be invited to look at the general question of smoking in the House of Lords. The Library and Computers Sub-Committee and the Refreshment Sub-Committee will also be considering the matter.
8. JOINT COMPUTER OFFICE
The Committee has endorsed the recommendation of the Library and Computers Sub-Committee for the withdrawal of the House of Lords from the joint Computer Office which has hitherto served both Houses, and of which the House has paid a 22 per cent. share of the cost.
9. STAFF OF THE HOUSE
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The Committee has approved the creation of additional posts. as follows—

(a) Temporary computer post of Higher Executive Officer

(b) Committee Specialist Assistant (formerly a temporary post)

(c) Attendants for 7 Millbank

The Committee instructed Black Rod to convey its appreciation for his contribution to increasing efficiency of security in the Palace of Westminster to Chief Superintendent GK Dark on his retirement as Head of Security.
10. NEW TELECOMMUNICATIONS STAFFING ARRANGEMENTS
The Committee has approved the introduction of new arrangements to replace the present contract with British Telecom (BT) whereby BT provides a Communications Manager and Deputy Manager and some 25 telephone operators to serve the Palace of Westminster. In future the Manager, Deputy Manager and Supervisor will be employed by the House of Commons (though serving both Houses and other occupants of the Palace), while the provision of telephone operators will be undertaken by a contractor.
11. REVISED SCALES OF PAY AND ALLOWANCES
The Committee has approved the application of the following Civil Service memoranda to the staff of the House of Lords—

DEO letter of 24 March 1992—Remuneration of college based sandwich students

DEO letter of 16 June 1992—Pay of Legal Officers

CM/982—Pay of Clerical and Typing grades, and proficiency payments and skill supplements

12. INSURANCE FOR LORDS
The Committee has been notified of increases in the upper limits of personal accident insurance cover for Lords whilst engaged on parliamentary duty.
13. REFRESHMENT FACILITIES FOR MEPS
The Committee recommends that subject to review at the beginning of each session the arrangement whereby British members of the European Parliament are entitled to make use of the Peers Guest Room should be renewed for the duration of the present Parliament.
14. BBC TV DOCUMENTARY
The Committee has been informed of proposals by the BBC for a series of six documentary programmes on Parliament. Final approval for the series will be subject to further discussions with the producers and to agreement by the House of Commons.
15. CAR PARKING
The Committee has authorised Black Rod to investigate what permanent arrangements could be made to acquire additional car parking in the vicinity of the House.
16. ACCOMMODATION
The Committee has endorsed a decision of the Administration and Works Sub-Committee that there should be negotiations with the Commons to exchange the third floor of 7 Millbank for 6–7 Old Palace Yard and certain other accommodation. The Committee has agreed that its previous decision about 7 Millbank be set aside should the negotiations be successful.
Lord Cocks of Hartcliffe: My Lords, I hesitate to speak on a subject such as this where I appreciate the work that is put in on these committees by Members of your Lordships' House. However, there are one or two points I wish to raise. As regards the paragraph in the report on the secondment of staff, I wonder whether the chairman could give us some examples of what the committee has in mind as regards people being seconded to and from this building.

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As regards the paragraph on the curator and assistant curator of works of art, I shall leave to another time my growing concern at the way in which this Palace of Westminster is torn apart every time we have a Summer Recess, particularly when it always seems to look exactly the same when it is put together again. However, I notice that the two people who have been seconded from English Heritage are now to be taken on the staff as part of the complement. English Heritage is an estimable organisation but I wonder what two full-time people will do in the Palace of Westminster. I cannot help feeling they will be looking for work. I wonder whether perhaps the tail is not wagging the dog and whether it is not time that someone said the emperor has no clothes.
Your Lordships will know that in the Peers' Lobby there is a small box which is labelled "stamped outgoing mail only". It has been there ever since I have been in your Lordships' House and it has always worked perfectly satisfactorily. Everything I have put into that box has been delivered and it never occurred to me there was anything wrong with it. However, last week I came into the Peers' Lobby to find an elaborate wooden box there. I was told it was there for demonstration purposes and that we shall have some eight or 10 of those new boxes put round the Palace at a cost of £4,000 for each box. Things seem to be getting out of proportion.
As regards the Barry Room, for example, if noble Lords instead of turning right when leaving turn left and go through the arch, they will see a newly constructed ramp up which deliveries are made of alcoholic refreshments. I do not complain about that but the ramp seems to me to be ridiculously constructed. It is constructed at a right angle and I am told that the ramp cost some £8,000. At a time when we are faced with economic stringency it seems to me that another look is needed here as to whether we are getting things out of proportion.
As regards smoking policy for the House of Lords' staff, the report states:
"The policy will have no immediate implications for members of the House".
That seems to me redolent of the kind of remark that Judge Jeffreys might have made before adjourning the court for the day. I wonder again whether we are not getting things out of proportion. I asked the Library for a list of alcohol related diseases. The staff there told me the most comprehensive list they could produce was a list running to nearly two pages which covered all kinds of conditions. The Royal College of Physicians had drawn up the document in 1987. An admirable summary of the medical consequences of alcohol abuse and misuse is contained in the Lord President's report which was produced in 1991. I believe things have got out of proportion and the zealots have got completely out of hand. If we are talking about drug related diseases, alcohol should also be mentioned. I shall pass over the question of refreshment facilities for MEPs to show the objectivity for which I have such a good reputation.
As regards the proposed BBC TV documentary surely it would be sensible before the series of six documentaries has begun to wait until we have seen
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the programme which is being prepared by the BBC for the series "Cutting Edge". We know from experience that such a process causes substantial disruption while the crews are working. It particularly causes impediments to disabled Members of the House. While it would be quite unseemly for the Palace of Westminster to receive any payment for providing facilities to the crews, I should have thought some kind of payment into the staff social fund would not be out of place, particularly in view of the astronomical payments that are made to some people who conduct BBC programmes.
As regards the accommodation at No.7 Millbank, the difficulty of persuading your Lordships to take up accommodation there could well have been foreseen. I recall that when this matter was first announced I asked whether the time allowed for your Lordships to reach the Division Lobbies would be extended. I think a little foresight here would have been most helpful.
My final point concerns the words "certain other accommodation" mentioned under paragraph 16. I must bring to the attention of your Lordships the fact that there is grave concern that the Houses of Parliament Sports and Social Club may have to be moved from its admirable premises. That club was founded in June 1922 and the club president is the Lord Great Chamberlain. It has been in its present position since 1938–39 and it has a substantial membership. It provides facilities for the staff of this building when other facilities are not available. I have always thought that the acid test of a body such as the House of Lords or the House of Commons is the way in which we treat the staff who serve us so faithfully. I hope it will be possible for the chairman to lay to rest the fears they have.
I cannot help contrasting the worries which the staff have over their social club with the concern which is constantly being expressed about providing a dining-room for counsel, particularly when petitioners come to Parliament to make representations. People appear in person in connection with contentious Private Bills. They often travel long distances and yet I know of no provision for them to obtain refreshments while they are on the premises. I may be in ignorance as regards this matter as it is quite possible that some arrangement has been made whereby the counsels' dining-room will be paid for by a proportion of the fees which counsel receive. In that case I apologise for raising the point.
I hope that the Chairman will bear these points in mind. I thank the committee for its work. When a report such as this comes before us it should not go through on the nod. We should examine carefully what is being done in our name.
The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, I have the impression that the noble Lord is not exactly happy with the report. I calculate that he disapproves of 10 out of the 16 paragraphs. I shall try to deal with the points he made.
As regards secondment, that is a perfectly normal state of affairs whereby certain clerks and others are seconded to other parliaments. Other parliaments do the same thing in reverse. It is thought to be an advantageous practice and a public spirited act.

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Parliaments in other parts of the world certainly welcome that practice. Therefore it would be a great pity if the Clerk of the Parliaments were not to be allowed to continue with that practice as it gives so much pleasure to many people.
The noble Lord also mentioned work being carried out in the Summer Recess. That of course is the only opportunity for major works to be carried out as we are working during the other eight months of the year. It would not please your Lordships if the builders were apparently to tear the place apart when the House is sitting. Therefore all major work has to be carried out during the Summer Recess. This is a 140 year-old building which is not as well built as might be supposed. When one tears a part of the walls down unpleasant things tend to emerge. The builders have enormous difficulties with this structure. I am afraid that it is inevitable that over the years there will continue to be an enormous amount of maintenance work.
The noble Lord is not pleased that we are taking onto our payroll the curator and his assistant. I can assure him that they are extremely hardworking individuals. That merely reflects a change of employer from the days when they worked for English Heritage. It seems to us that it is correct that this House should be accountable for those who work for us, in exactly the same way as we are taking responsibility for the work which we previously received on an allied service basis, for example, through the PSA and the Stationery Office.
I do not know the answer to the noble Lord's question in relation to the post-boxes. However, I shall certainly find out and I shall write to the noble Lord. I shall leave a copy of the letter in the Library if the matter is of interest to other noble Lords.
The question of smoking is a matter entirely for the staff of the House. It was agreed by the Whitley Committee that the wishes of people who prefer that there should be no smoking in their offices should be met. That in no way affects your Lordships.
I turn now to the question of the television documentaries. I agree that it is most irritating if one bumps into a camera which is photographing somebody else rather than oneself. One may not even wish to be photographed. It was agreed by the Offices Committee that the documentaries are worthy, and in both cases they have been agreed by another place. I believe that it would be very wrong for this House not to go along with the proposal.
The noble Lord is probably right to say that there was little enthusiasm among noble Lords to install themselves in 7 Millbank. It is 300 yards away. The exchange which has now been successfully concluded is greatly more agreeable inasmuch as we shall merely have to cross the road. There will, of course, be a delay before we are able to enjoy the facilities of 6 and 7 Old Palace Yard. The noble Lord is probably right to say that the offices in Millbank were some distance away, but a number of people were willing to travel that distance.
I can give an absolute assurance that there has never been and is not likely to be a decision to move
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the Houses of Parliament Sports and Social Club, unless it is with the consent of the club. Mr. Peeters, the manager of the club, is anxious to move to an alternative location. That alternative location is not presently available and the cost of the move would be considerable. I think that the noble Lord would disapprove if we were to spend large sums of money on that particular step in the present stringent times. He and I are in touch and there is no question that there need be any anxiety on his part that the club is due to be shifted.
A dining room for counsel is a matter that we should love to resolve, and we shall do so when accommodation is available. Such a facility is necessary for counsel and would also provide an additional facility for Members of the House. It would be wrong for us not to try to achieve that but it will await the availability of what is known as the south-east return, which is the part of the building which looks over Black Rod's garden.
I hope that I have answered most of the noble Lord's questions.
3.30 p.m.
Baroness Seear: My Lords, I shall delay the House for only a very short time. Did I understand the noble Lord to say that the improvements would include improvements to the ventilation in your Lordships' Chamber? I think that I am not the only person who finds the present standard of ventilation intolerable at times. If I am right in assuming that such changes are to be made, in making those changes is the noble Lord considering consulting the Warren Spring Laboratory? I understand from a notice in the press that the Warren Spring Laboratory has been carrying out tests on the quality of air in a highly scientific way. It might be advantageous to have that done at the same time as the proposed improvements are being undertaken.
The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness. Perhaps I may repeat what I said, because I may have spoken rather fast. I said that your Lordships would be pleased to hear that a complete overhaul of the heating and ventilation system in the Chamber is all but finished. That work was done during the course of the Recess. All that remains is to fit some carbon filters, which are not presently in the House. That will be done in the very near future, over a weekend.
I am not aware of the technical information which the noble Baroness mentioned, but I shall see that it is studied by the Department of Works. Even now we should notice an improvement and when the carbon filters are installed there should be a complete solution to the problem. I sincerely hope so.
Lord Strabolgi: My Lords, I should like to ask the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees a brief question concerning paragraph 2 relating to the Advisory Panel on Works of Art. Ten noble Lords have agreed to serve on that important advisory panel. Of course it is not a political committee, but nevertheless it seems to me that the balance between the parties is not equitable. There are five

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Conservatives, three Cross-Benchers, two Labour Peers and no Liberal Democrats, although I have often noticed in our arts debates that noble Lords on the Liberal Democrat Benches have made notable contributions. In my time in the House I have never known a committee have such an extraordinary imbalance between the parties and so much weight be given to one particular party.
The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, answered his own question in his first sentence when he said that it is in no way a party political matter. It is expertise which one wants on such a committee. I cannot believe that an individual's politics could possibly affect the work that he was able to do in such a committee. However, if the noble Lord feels that there has been any insensitivity on the point, I shall certainly confer with the Chief Whip of his party, who may feel aggrieved, and with the Chief Whip of the Liberal Democrat Party. These things are done in the normal way in the Offices Committee, but I believe that the noble Lord answered his own question in his first sentence.
Lord Renton: My Lords, can the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees give us some idea as to how we shall know when we are on the air? The remote control cameras are rather difficult to understand. If we knew that we were on the air, that might sometimes enable us to shorten our speeches still further.
The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, I fully appreciate the fear of my noble friend Lord Renton that Big Brother is very definitely watching. It must be assumed that Big Brother is watching all the time and therefore caution must be observed on every possible occasion.
Lord Dean of Beswick: My Lords, perhaps I may refer the Chairman of Committees to the question of accommodation. As a member of one of the sub-committees dealing with that problem, I should like to congratulate the noble Lord on his efforts so far. However, is it not the case that even if the most optimistic outcome is achieved in negotiations with another place, new Members of this House will have no chance of a room in the foreseeable future? While that is the situation in this House the Chairman of Committees must be aware that at the other end of the Palace Members are bombarding themselves with pots of money to increase facilities and accommodation, even, I understand, for new research assistants who will be employed with the extra money which Members voted themselves in July.
Is it not time that, as a corporate body, we stopped operating on the assumption that we are a poor relation? Should not Peers coming to your Lordships House to do a job receive some consideration? Accommodation is not the same as in another place; provision should be on a more equitable basis than the present arrangements, which by any standards are appalling. The situation should be put right as soon as possible.
The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, I am grateful for the noble Lord's first remark. Of course I
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share his feelings. We are making progress. We now have four more rooms. There will be an additional five rooms from another place in a short while. The accommodation which will be available in 6 and 7 Old Palace Yard is very agreeable. Depending on exactly how one handles the building, it amounts to 22 rooms. It will be a considerable addition to the accommodation available to the House. I agree that we will have to be patient and wait for the various permissions which have to be obtained and for the work to be carried out—we estimate that will take about 14 months—but it will be a very handsome building. It will be close to us and will make a considerable difference.
The noble Lord raises the delicate matter of the financing of these operations. I feel that we should expect the Treasury to take a favourable view of what we intend to do, which will be the minimum necessary in order to make conditions more tolerable for your Lordships to do the work that you all do.
Lord Allen of Abbeydale: My Lords, has the Lord Chairman anything more up-to-date to say about item 15 in regard to the provision of car parking? This is important to a number of Members of this House. The problem seems to be getting worse.
The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, I fully appreciate what the noble Lord, Lord Allen of Abbeydale, has to say on that subject. We are all conscious that there is a hideously difficult problem about parking, but I should be grateful if he did not press me at this stage. We are engaged in negotiations which, if successful, will alleviate, if not solve, the problem.
Lord Elton: My Lords, when we have finished cleaning the walls of this building can we start cleaning the windows a little more regularly?
The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, I will bring that point to the attention of Black Rod to ascertain whether we can afford to have the windows cleaned more frequently. As noble Lords will appreciate, this is an extremely awkward building when it comes to cleaning the windows.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, following on the point raised by my noble friend Lord Dean of Beswick, it is true that Members of the House of Lords are extremely badly served in the matter of accommodation. Can the Chairman of Committees say whether the new accommodation will enable former Prime Ministers to be housed in a single room in a secure part of the Palace? At present they have to share a room. Frankly, I think that is deplorable.
My second point relates to heating and ventilation. Can I be assured that from now on Members sitting on the Benches here will not be subject to a cold blast of air, particularly in the middle of winter?
Thirdly, in relation to item 13—refreshments for MEPs—can I be assured that there will be reciprocal arrangements for Members of this House, and perhaps another place, in the accommodation occupied by Members of the European Parliament, wherever that may be at any particular time?
The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, if correctly understand the last point made by the noble Lord to relate to the hospitality that we are proposing to make available to Members of the European Parliament, I can only say that I have recently enjoyed their hospitality in Strasbourg. They certainly reciprocated in the most lavish fashion.
Referring to accommodation, I can only repeat what I have already said. In regard to those who have previously occupied the highest office in the land—that of Prime Minister—I wrote to the Speaker of another place pointing out that I did not know how much longer I could hold out in a situation where ex-Prime Ministers had to continue to share a room with three others. I think that letter may well have assisted in achieving the agreement we have now reached.
On the second point, we shall have an adjustment made forthwith.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Lord Hesketh: My Lords, after consultation through the usual channels it has been agreed that we should take a short break until 3.55 p.m. when we shall take the coal Statement. On that basis, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure until 3.55 p.m.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
[The Sitting was suspended from 3.45 to 3.55 p.m.]

The Coal Industry
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Trade and Industry (Baroness Denton of Wakefield): My Lords, with the leave of the House, I should like now to repeat a Statement being made in another place by the President of the Board of Trade. The Statement is as follows:
"With permission, Madam Speaker, I would like to make a Statement about the coal industry.
"Last week I agreed that British Coal should announce that it would cease production at 31 pits over the course of the next five months with the loss of up to 30,000 jobs. I very much regretted that British Coal had had to reach this decision but I accepted its advice that these steps were necessary in order to bring supply closer into line with demand. I then announced myself the outline of a package of redundancy and special assistance measures, the further details of which I am now able to give the House.
"Originally I intended to announce details of the new coal contracts with the electricity supply industry and the future employment prospects for British Coal to the House before the Summer Recess. This timetable was not achieved. I would have liked to have made the announcement to the House today. But the electricity industry has still not agreed contracts for coal after 1st April 1993. In the meantime pressure on British Coal, fuelled by reported leaks, intensified and I therefore agreed to allow it to proceed. I regret this discourtesy to the House.
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I accept full responsibility for that decision as I do for the consequent events.
"Madam Speaker, remorseless changes in circumstances have been reducing demand and employment in the coal industry for the last 80 years. The fastest rate of decline was in the 1960s when 300,000 jobs were lost in a decade, including 186,000 under the Labour Governments of 1964 to 1970. At present, British Coal is producing 88 million tonnes, with 65 million tonnes going to the electricity generators. It is most unlikely that British Coal will be able to sell more than 40 million tonnes to the generators as from next April. The economic case for a substantial reduction in capacity therefore remains compelling.
"Nevertheless the Government recognise the concern at the speed of the run-down and about the very great difficulties it would cause to the communities involved. We have therefore concluded that, for the time being, British Coal should be allowed to proceed with the closure of only 10 pits which it has told me are currently loss making and have no prospect of viability in the foreseeable future. The pits which fall into this category are Vane Tempest, Grimethorpe and Houghton Main, Markham Main, Trentham, Parkside, Cotgrave, Silverhill, Betws and Taff Merthyr.
"Nevertheless it is clearly important that British Coal demonstrably meets its statutory duties to consult and notify and take account of the result of consultation. No closure will therefore take place until after the statutory consultation period has been completed.
"In the case of all other closures and redundancies, I have asked British Coal to introduce a moratorium until early in the New Year except for those which may be agreed by the workforce at the pits concerned. This will provide time for negotiations to continue, and hopefully to be concluded, on the new coal contracts. During this period there will be no compulsory redundancies, although voluntary redundancies will be allowed to proceed under the terms announced by British Coal last week.
"During this moratorium the Government and British Coal will set out the full case for the closures which British Coal planned and to which I agreed. The Government will also provide an opportunity for honourable Members to debate the issues. In addition, we will carry out widespread consultation with all those concerned over the next three months. We will then announce our conclusions following these consultations to Parliament in the New Year. If, following this process, the Government and British Coal's judgment is confirmed then British Coal will proceed with a phased programme of colliery closures aimed at reducing surplus capacity as soon as possible.
"Madam Speaker, it is clear that many coalfield communities will continue to suffer significant job losses. I am now able to give the House more details about the package of measures to assist those communities.

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In the short term people will need immediate help to find jobs, to retrain and to construct a new future for themselves. In the longer term these areas will need help with infrastructure to attract new industries and business.
"My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Employment has written to the Chairman of the Employment Select Committee with details of a package of measures worth approximately £75 million over two years. A copy of the letter has been placed in the Library.
"The training and enterprise councils in the areas concerned will have a major part to play. They will want to ensure that all those affected are offered help from the relevant agencies including British Coal Enterprise and Government departments. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales will be taking similar action in Wales.
"One of the best ways of attracting new industries and long term investment is the creation of enterprise zones. The Government intend to introduce new enterprise zones, in the areas where they would be most effective.
"Last week I said that we would ask English Estates to advise on a programme of property and sites provision. On the basis of preliminary discussions with English Estates, the Government have decided to make available to the corporation—and in due course to the Urban Regeneration Agency—£75 million of additional money over the next three years. In addition the corporation will in this year spend around £10 million in these areas.
"My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Environment is also making nearly £2 million available today to the Tyne and Wear Development Corporation. This will enable it to make an early start on the further extension of the Sunderland Enterprise Park and the new Viking Industrial Park in South Tyneside.
"We have already announced that three areas—Doncaster, Barnsley and Mansfield—will get enhanced status when the new assisted area map is announced in the New Year. More areas will be upgraded in the review. This will ensure that firms interested in investing there are eligible for grant assistance. We will continue to look at other areas.
"These major initiatives will be underpinned by further smaller regeneration measures. I intend to extend the coverage of regional enterprise grants to all coal closure areas. This will help small businesses there with investment and innovation projects. I will strengthen inward investment efforts in these areas. I will see that additional resources are available to local development agencies.
"My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Environment is also acting immediately to alleviate the effects of the closures. He is today setting up a coalfield areas fund. Up to £5 million will be made available for expenditure in this financial year and next. My right honourable friend is writing to all the local authorities in the affected areas asking them urgently for proposals on how this money can best be spent to help those
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made redundant. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales will be making a separate announcement on resources in Wales.
"I am aware that these closures will have a serious impact on coal industry suppliers and we are already discussing with them ways to assist diversification and the identification of new markets.
"These measures will all bring new money to the affected areas. We are talking about £165 million altogether. I know that this will make a major impact in transforming the economies of these areas.
"These programmes will be carried out by a number of separate agencies, each with established expertise and a track record of achievement in its field. But it will be important to ensure that the programmes mesh properly together, leaving neither wasteful overlaps nor damaging gaps. For this reason I have decided to appoint a distinguished national figure, who will be an adviser in my department, to act as co-ordinator and facilitator at the national level. He will also assist my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales.
"I am pleased to tell the House that the noble Lord, Lord Walker, has agreed to accept this important responsibility.
"The decisions which I have announced today have been difficult. I understand the anguish that will be caused for the coalfields concerned but there is no economic alternative. The Government will now proceed to work for the long term future of all those concerned.
"I have arranged for copies of this Statement to be made available in the Vote Office".
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
4.10 p.m.
Lord Donoughue: My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement, copies of which we were handed a few minutes ago. No doubt the last-minute U turn which it contains reflects not only the total disorder which appears to exist in central government but also the horror and indignation—and nothing less than that—which has been felt across the nation and the political spectrum, as Government Whips well know, against the proposals to butcher the coal industry through brutal and ill-considered closures.
Those last minute concessions may perhaps satisfy some Conservative Back-Benchers in another place—we shall soon learn. However, I cannot believe that they will bring lasting comfort to the 100,000 workers in the coal and related industries who remain threatened, because the moratorium prolongs uncertainty. The moratorium of three months continues the uncertainty and prolongs the agony for all those who work in the coal industry and related industries. Therefore, it blights the industry and destroys confidence in its future.
The proposals should be dropped. But if they are reconsidered that should not be done through the consultations that have been mentioned—we heard about the full consultations which were conducted

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previously—but through an independent inquiry. Otherwise the same Ministers will continue to find the argument for closure compelling. That was reaffirmed by the Secretary of State yesterday on television and it is written into this Statement.
The human tragedy involved in the 31 closures is too awful to contemplate. Whether there are 10 or 31 closures, why are the Government still contemplating them? Why have they not abandoned them? There are no compensating economic advantages in these callous measures. However many closures—whether 10 or 31—they hurt Britain, economic growth, the balance of payments and public borrowing. They are economic lunacy; why are they occurring?
The Minister repeated in the Statement the tired assertions that the closures are the remorseless logic of the free market because there is no market or there is an insufficient market for coal. Will the Minister not now admit that that is nonsense? Is she not aware that there is no free market for UK energy? The customers in electricity are quasi-monopolistic. Coal's competitors in gas and in nuclear have privileged access to the market. Therefore, the Government still do not have and have not presented to this House an argument for the closures which stands up to scrutiny.
More particularly, I wish to ask the Minister certain questions which are fundamental to exposing the economic and social lunacy of what is still being considered; that is, the 31 closures. I hope that she will answer them because the Government have not yet published any cost-benefit analysis of their proposals. We have had no White Paper, although I asked for one in our debate in the summer. Why have we not had published a cost-benefit analysis for 10,20 or 31 closures? Will such an analysis be published before the so-called moratorium ends? Will there be a White Paper?
Will the Minister address today the questions which such an analysis would bring? What will be the total number of people unemployed as a result of these proposals—whether there are 10 or 31 closures—including indirect unemployment from related industries? Does the Minister accept the widely propounded figure of more than 100,000? What will be the cut in GDP resulting over one to three years? Does the Minister accept that it will be a reduction of 0.5 per cent. per annum, which will more than eliminate recent benefits of interest rate cuts? What are the true costs of the closures? Will the Government publish those relevant figures, including the indirect costs, the liabilities and the balance sheet write-offs? Do they accept that the total costs have been estimated at £7 billion? In relation to that, what would be the true cost of keeping all 31 mines open? Does the Minister accept that it is approximately £1 billion; only half the cost of closing them during the first three years?
In relation to the aid package, how much extra will there be for local authorities in the blighted areas which will carry the burden? As British Coal Enterprise will have a major role, who will be responsible for that after privatisation? Will the Minister not accept that this package is totally
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inadequate when compared with the scale of the tragedy which is contemplated? As regards a national energy policy, do the Government put no value—no value at all—on having long-term security in domestic energy supplies, including coal?
If the House receives full and accurate answers to those questions, it will be clear that there is no logic behind the proposed closures, whether there are 10 or 31. There is no economic logic, no social logic, no energy logic and above all no human logic. The moratorium does not alter that; it simply prolongs the uncertainty. Will the Minister suggest to her Secretary of State that this House, like the whole nation, wants the proposed closures totally abandoned? Will the Government come forward with a rational energy strategy, including a future for the coal industry? When will they do that?
4.15 p.m.
Lord Ezra: My Lords, I wish to associate myself with the anxiety expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Donoughue, about the way in which the original proposals were made. During a long period in the coal industry I never experienced an announcement of closures made in such a way; I refer to the closure of 31 pits in five months. The Minister referred to the number of closures and redundancies which occurred during the 1960s and her numbers were correct. However, as she will no doubt recall, the circumstances were then quite different. First, there was almost continuous consultation. Indeed, I spent most of my time in meetings with union representatives discussing charts and details of all the pits. Secondly, that was a period of continuous full employment and therefore alternative jobs were readily available. The distinction is that on this occasion there has been no consultation and there are no alternative jobs.
The Government have now come forward with modified proposals which are more satisfactory. However, I should have preferred the postponement of all the closures during the moratorium, and I ask the Minister to consider that. There is argument about the viability of some of the pits on the list which she has mentioned. No doubt that will arise in the normal consultation procedure which she has assured us will be restored. However, I am anxious in particular about the point referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Donoughue, that the inquiry will not be independent. The Government conducted an inquiry when formulating their plans for privatisation. I do not believe that this House or another place will be satisfied with yet another inquiry conducted by the Government.
So many issues are unresolved. No one is clear about the relative competitiveness of the existing coal-fired stations, which have long since had their capital costs written off as compared with the gas-fired stations. There is argument about whether the gas-fired stations would be competitive at the original gas price. But would they be competitive at the higher gas price? There are arguments about the proper position of nuclear power. Indeed, because electricity is generated by virtually every kind of primary energy

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that we have at our disposal, the electricity industry raises the major issue of an energy policy. It cannot be escaped.
Therefore, I put it to the Minister that the Government should give serious thought to establishing an independent high-powered body which would look at the whole question of energy policy. That should report by the end of the year and the inquiries presently being conducted by the Director-General of Electricity Supply, which he said will not be available until some time towards the end of next year, should be speeded up so that we know the impact of the contracts for electricity supply being conducted by the regional electricity companies.
In the meantime, I should have thought that the closures should be conducted on the normal basis, as they were previously. No pre-ordained list of pits should be closed and only when the inquiry has been completed, submitted to the nation and to both Houses and fully debated, should we decide what should be done. I hope that the Minister will give us a view on that issue.
Baroness Denton of Wakefield: My Lords, it is precisely because the Government are anxious about the future of Britain that these difficult decisions are being taken. We want to achieve the largest economic coal industry that the market can support in the longer term. The Government aim to ensure that the nation has adequate, secure and diverse supplies of energy at competitive prices in the forms which people and businesses want. A competitive market, operating within a framework of arrangements to safeguard health and safety and the environment, provides the most effective and efficient mechanism for meeting our energy needs.
Our strategy is clear. It is to open up the energy sector and to respond to market forces so that British industry and British consumers have access to diverse sources of energy at competitive prices. We are lucky to have a number of energy sources in this country: oil, gas and coal as well as access to imports. It is right that we should seek to take advantage of all those and that the market should be able to decide to what extent it wishes to draw on them.
The Government believe that energy prices should, wherever possible, reflect their true economic cost, otherwise we should simply put up the prices of our products and lose jobs as a consequence. Since 1979 the Government have supported the coal industry to the tune of £18 billion, £8 billion of which has allowed them to modernise and mechanise. For the coal industry to survive it is important that it should concentrate on its future. At present, money is being spent on bringing coal, for which there is no market, above ground at a cost of about £100 million each time. Stocks already at the power stations and at the pit heads are in excess of what is required. It is because we wish to protect the future and because we believe that the coal industry has a part to play in energy policy, that we were faced with difficult decisions. We expect that the consultations will be with those concerned, with those with the knowledge, with those who have been running the pits and with those
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working in the pits. I believe that that will mean that satisfactory answers will be given to noble Lords and to another place.
4.24 p.m.
Lord Peyton of Yeovil: My Lords, does the Minister agree that part of the problem is the excessively centralised and inflexible structure of the industry? Secondly, was it not at least the source of the difficulty that the decision was made to put the cart before the horse when the privatisation of electricity preceded that of the coal industry? Thirdly, was it not nonsensical—and some of us warned about it quite clearly at the time—to put two generators in such a position of power in the name of creating competition? Will the Minister apply her mind to the role which is now being given, or which it is proposed to give, to gas in the first instance and the preference to nuclear in the second? Under that I include also the role and the contribution which will be made by Electricité de France.
The Government make much of the fact that in the past 10 to 12 years they have invested £18 billion in the industry. Do the Government now feel that it was a mistake to continue for so long with that process of investment? If they do not believe that they were in error, why did they not wait a little longer for results to come to hand?
Baroness Denton of Wakefield: My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Peyton for those questions. I agree that the flexibility of the operator is central to its efficiency. I stress also that no one could have made more efforts than my honourable friends to ensure that the electricity contracts were in place so that those matters could be discussed before the Recess. It is important that in due course the coal industry joins the privatised sector to give it the strength to negotiate.
The question of gas stations has been raised already by the noble Lord, Lord Ezra. It seems to me that the judgment has been well made by those whose task it is to supply the country with economical electricity. They have made their judgments and have invested in gas stations.
Of course, the nuclear issue will not change if we stop production. The costs arise on decommissioning. That is probably best managed on operating stations for as long as that is appropriate.
The process of investment has identified what can be achieved. The money spent has meant that the workforce and management have done much to improve the industry's position. I came from a background and a school where people considered it fortunate that by the year 2000 no one would have to go down a pit. Fortunately expenditure has been such that safety records have improved out of all proportion. By using the investment, we have identified where a competitive and profitable coal industry can be based.
Lord Jenkins of Hillhead: My Lords, the noble Baroness must be aware that so far in her answers she has not attempted to reply to the questions asked but has merely read out a supplementary statement

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bearing no relationship at all to the points raised either by the noble Lord, Lord Donoughue, or by my noble friend Lord Ezra.
Will the Minister apply herself in particular to the point made most powerfully by my noble friend Lord Ezra that an independent inquiry is required? The Minister announced that the Government see no possible logic in a demand for more than 45 million tonnes of coal. That is tangled up with a curious competitive structure in relation to the electricity industry, and to some extent the gas industry, which arises out of the method of privatisation that the Government chose to pursue. Unless there is an inquiry into the whole matter to try to disentangle the position there will merely be a stay of execution without a hope of survival.
4.30 p.m.
Baroness Denton of Wakefield: My Lords, I am sorry that the noble Lord did not hear me answer the noble Lord, Lord Ezra. I said that the consultation that we propose to have with the people involved will provide the answers. The situation now is that, whether privatised or not, coal is being mined for which there is no market. In all the millions of column inches which have been written over the past month no one has come up with an answer to that problem.
Lord Mason of Barnsley: My Lords, last week's announcement was, and is now clearly seen to have been, a panic stricken measure. It was totally irresponsible. It was delivered in a cowardly fashion while Parliament was in Recess. It was a statement, monstrous as it is, with such serious national implications and with repercussions reverberating all around the country, that was not agreed by the Cabinet. That statement outraged the nation. One can now readily see what a callous, insensitive uncaring statement it was. Most Conservatives have been ashamed. The miners and their families are shocked and incensed. The whole nation feels aggrieved.
Noble Lords: Question!
Lord Mason of Barnsley: My Lords, even now, we have not yet had a reasoned presentation from the Government, who are still determined that the coal industry is virtually to die. This is only a temporary pause, is it not? Yet we import 20 million tonnes of coal annually. Why? It is foreign coal. We are importing unemployment.
Noble Lords: Question!
Lord Mason of Barnsley: My Lords, I am asking questions. That is equivalent to 20,000 miners' jobs. We are producing 15 million tonnes of open-cast coal. The Government's legislation will increase that to 25 million tonnes. We are importing nuclear power from France. That is equivalent to the output of five coal mines: 5,000 miners' jobs. No case for the "dash for gas" has yet been made out. Coal has to compete with heavily subsidised nuclear power and German coal. We are closing coal mines which are producing the cheapest coal in Western Europe. Do we not see a use
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for coal? The Germans do. Do not the Government see that one of the reasons for coal being stockpiled is that government policies are removing British Coal's markets? It is obvious that there is a case for a halt and a rethink about those pit closures. Is it not vitally imperative that all the closures—and three out of the 10 which it has been announced are to close immediately are in South Yorkshire and Barnsley—
Lord Tordoff: My Lords, perhaps the noble Lord will forgive me. He may not be aware that 20 minutes only are allowed at this stage, and that it is customary for questions to be asked and not for prepared speeches to be made.
Noble Lords: Hear, hear!
Lord Mason of Barnsley: My Lords, I conclude by asking the Government to ensure that a full examination is made of all aspects of the impact of the proposed pit closures on job losses, energy costs, energy deficits in the balance of payments, the future security of supply and the cost in terms of unemployment benefit and lost tax revenue. I believe that the Government have miscalculated seriously. I urge them to present to the House the results of an examination.
Baroness Denton of Wakefield: My Lords, I understand the noble Lord's anxiety. He has done a great deal of work in the area from which he comes to help the change which has been relentless throughout the coal industry. The discussion we are having today is not about new policy but about the change that has taken place. Given the noble Lord's knowledge, I am surprised that he should raise the subject of imports. About 90 per cent. of the coal used in power stations comes from UK mines.
Lord Dormand of Easington: My Lords, why not 100 per cent.?
Baroness Denton of Wakefield: My Lords, is the noble Lord proposing that we should restrict imports, a policy which would mean that we were interfering with the GATT negotiations? We cannot restrict imports. By continuing to use the coal appropriate for the job—it does not always come from British mines—we are looking after our own industries.
The Earl of Onslow: My Lords, I congratulate the Government on doing something which I believed to be impossible—to ally the middle classes of Surrey and the rest of the South of England with Arthur Scargill and make them his fan club. But is it not true that the Government's judgment on this matter has been seen to be badly lacking? It is essential that there should be a proper inquiry into whether the market for fuel for electricity generation has been rigged, which is what appears to be the case when one reads the newspapers. To ask us to trust the Government's judgment at the moment is, I am afraid to say—I do not like saying this as a Conservative—not very pleasant.
Baroness Denton of Wakefield: My Lords, I am sorry that my noble friend should doubt the ability of

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the Government, British Coal and the other people involved in the industry—those whom the proposed consultation will include.
Lord Callaghan of Cardiff: My Lords, I fully understand the Minister's difficulty in answering some of these questions today. We must not confuse the message with the messenger. I shall leave for another occasion the fact that the Government's handling of this matter beggars description and has brought unnecessary disquiet, terror and fear to thousands of homes in this country.
I should like to ask the Minister one simple, straightforward question. Perhaps she will give an answer if she is able to do so. I understand that the Government are a 40 per cent. shareholder in the electricity industry. It seems clear from all that is emerging that it is the position of the regional distribution companies and generators that is imposing certain rigid constraints upon the coal industry. Will the Government therefore use their influence as a 40 per cent. shareholder in the electricity industry to ensure that that industry does not take irrevocable decisions during the period of the consultation that would prevent changes in government policy which would give coal a fairer chance? Finally, will she represent to her colleagues that in the light of what has happened many people believe that there should be an independent inquiry?
Baroness Denton of Wakefield: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his comments. I assure him that I shall represent to my right honourable friend the President to the Board of Trade every issue that has been raised today and in particular the one that he has mentioned. However, I must stress that the Government's responsibility is to make this country efficient and competitive and to ensure that it has a future.
Lord Callaghan of Cardiff: My Lords, that is what we want.
Baroness Denton of Wakefield: My Lords, to do that the supply of electricity to our industry has to be competitive. It is important to take some of the doubt out of the issues and to ensure that the contracts with the generators are signed. We have been working towards that end and will continue to do so. Our overall view must concentrate upon the future of the economy.
Lord Boardman: My Lords, I welcome the Statement and the changes which have been made in the pace of any closures. Will my noble friend assure me that, in the consultations which will follow, two particular points will be borne in mind? The first is the importance of the cost of energy to the whole of industry in this country. To apply an artificially high price for the social consequences could be extremely damaging to all industry and employment. That must be borne in mind.
Secondly, as regards the social consequences, can she assure me that it will not just be those consequences to the miners'? Historically they have very generous redundancy terms, pensions, and the
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like. The social consequences to the communities in the affected areas where such support is not available should be very much in the Government's mind in such an inquiry.
Baroness Denton of Wakefield: My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Boardman for identification of the fact, which I have been trying to get over, that we shall be looking to the future of the whole economy. As the industrial scene changes we must support those with growth opportunities for employment, potential, and opportunities for our young people. That is the key. I also assure my noble friend that the social consequences to the areas and the people involved who are not just those employed in the coal mines, will be matters that we shall take very closely into account in our employment programme.
The Earl of Perth: My Lords, from all the questions that have been asked today the one thing that strikes me is the demand that there should be an independent inquiry. The noble Baroness has said that there will be consultation on a piecemeal basis as regards the pits and those affected. That is not an answer to the request that has been made. Will the noble Baroness seriously consider the demand which has been made on all sides—I stress on all sides—that there should be an independent inquiry to report on the whole situation?
Baroness Denton of Wakefield: My Lords, I have tried to indicate that we are not suggesting piecemeal consultation. I have heard the view of the House as regards an independent inquiry. I will convey that matter to my right honourable friend. However, we believe that the matter itself is well known and well traced by the people involved.
Lord Varley: My Lords, is it not a fact that the market for coal has been deliberately rigged over the past few years, largely as a result of the way in which the electricity supply industry was privatised? Can the noble Baroness say what kind of economic sense encourages, as the Government are doing, the building of another 43 gas power stations which, in the middle of this decade, will result in something like a 55 per cent. over-capacity in power generation. It means that the cost of that extra uneconomic generating in relation to coal will be passed to the consumer. Why are the Government resisting an independent inquiry? It is no good the Minister saying that she will make representations on the matter. Why does she not say now that the case has been made out?
Baroness Denton of Wakefield: My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Varley, knows that that is something that sounds very good but it is not a practical suggestion. Perhaps I may also say that 43 power stations may have been suggested, but that is not the number being built. If rigging the market means that a gas-fired station takes two years to build and a coal-fired station five years, I suggest that that is not government activity.

Business of the House
4.45 p.m.
The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Wakeham): My Lords, the time allotted for supplementary Questions has elapsed. It is right that I should now, with the leave of the House, continue with a further Business Statement.
I fully understand that a number of your Lordships have made strenuous efforts to be present today to discuss the British Coal and British Rail (Transfer Proposals) Bill. I can only apologise to your Lordships and to the House for the inconvenience which the rearrangement of business has caused. However, I am sure that the House will understand, in the light of the Statement which we have just heard, why I considered it unwise to ask the House to proceed today to discuss the Bill. I welcome the opportunity to explain my decision now.
As your Lordships will know, the Committee stage of the Bill was set down in July, before the Summer Recess—from which I hope your Lordships have emerged refreshed for the Session ahead. The Bill is, of course, a largely technical measure which confers on the British Coal Corporation and on the British Railways Board powers to participate in the implementation of the Government's proposals for the privatisation of British Coal and British Rail.
Though the Bill does not directly address the issues of how the Government propose the privatisation programmes will be followed through, it has become increasingly clear to me that, since the announcement of the pit closures made last Tuesday, many of your Lordships consider that the context in which the Bill is to be scrutinised by the House has changed since the Second Reading debate.
Though it is my view that the issue of pit closures and the subject matter of the Bill are separate, I recognise that this perception may not be widely shared by your Lordships. In these circumstances, and particularly in view of the relatively short time which has elapsed since the pit closures' announcement, it appeared to me that the House would find it difficult to fulfil its function effectively as a revising Chamber should it be asked to proceed into Committee on the Bill today.
My feeling was reinforced by the fact that the pit closures policy itself is currently under legal review. Two legal actions are pending in the High Court. One action by the National Union of Mineworkers has been adjourned until tomorrow. A separate application by the Union of Democratic Mineworkers for judicial review will be heard on Thursday. Moreover, as your Lordships have just heard. the Government have proposed further adjustments to the policy. In the light of these developments, and the uncertainty they necessarily engender, I considered that the measured consideration of legislation, in which the House plays such a valuable role in Parliament, would not be possible.
The Government will invite your Lordships to consider the paving Bill in due course, and following discussions with the usual channels. Your Lordships
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will then have the opportunity to scrutinise the Bill in detail. I also anticipate that your Lordships may wish to debate the pit closures policy itself. I would be happy to arrange for the House to debate this policy in Government time. Perhaps I may also add that I shall ensure that the House has a further opportunity to debate the policy in the light of the review which is to be undertaken.
Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos: My Lords, the noble Lord the Leader of the House has discussed and proposed a course of action in this House which we find extremely difficult to accept. He has tried to make a case for the postponement of the Committee stage of the British Coal and British Rail (Transfer Proposals) Bill, but we on this side of the House see no valid argument for that. As the noble Lord said, the Bill has been on the Order Paper for a long time. Noble Lords have been summoned here today to debate that Bill and some have travelled a long distance to do so. There was no other business before us. We resent this arbitrary way of treating the House.
As the noble Lord, Lord Wakeham, said, the revision of legislation is our primary business and to tell the House at a few hours' notice that we cannot proceed with a Committee stage is in my estimation offensive to noble Lords and to the House. The Government's closure policies were no reason for postponing consideration of the Bill. If they were, then, as the noble Lord conceded, this business could have been deferred several weeks if not several months ago. The Government are responsible for the current crisis and they should not have deprived the House of the full and constructive debate which could have taken place on the first amendment which my noble friend Lord Donoughue had tabled.
In view of this, the Government have left us with no alternative but to table a Motion for debate tomorrow to consider the crisis in the light of today's Statement by Mr. Michael Heseltine. As I have said, the Government have had several days in which to make a decision about today's business. Their failure to do so, to have a proper discussion and to reach agreement with all the Opposition parties may lead to difficulties in the future over arranging the business of this House. I regret that all this has happened.
Lord Harmar-Nicholls: My Lords, perhaps I may—
Noble Lords: Order!
Lord Jenkins of Hillhead: My Lords, I suppose that, considered against the background of the Government's monumental mishandling of every issue that they at present touch, the question of the business in your Lordships' House today is a relatively minor one, but it is nonetheless unfortunate to have got this wrong as well. It occurs to me that it would have been eminently sensible to have proceeded at any rate from the first amendment—a paving amendment—to a general discussion on energy strategy.
In my relatively brief period—now five years—in your Lordships' House I have been struck by the fact that, while your Lordships' procedure has many advantages over that in the other place, by its

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procedure this House is relatively inflexible in being able to react quickly to major events of national importance. Here, by accident, was a golden opportunity to overcome that and to have a debate of great contemporary and national interest. Deliberately to have prevented our doing that seems to me to be a grave misjudgment.
I should have expected the noble Lord the Lord Privy Seal to have wished to address this House at the earliest possible moment. He is, after all, not only a member of the Cabinet but one of the architects of the policy that has produced the current situation in the energy industry. I was frankly surprised that on an issue as important and difficult as this today the noble Lord did not repeat the Statement but left it to the noble Baroness, Lady Denton of Wakefield, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, to do the best she could with a very difficult brief. I should have thought that, in view of his record on these matters, the noble Lord the Lord Privy Seal would wish to explain himself to the House as soon as possible.
Lord Harmar-Nicholls: My Lords—
Noble Lords: Order!
Lord Wakeham: My Lords, it would probably be for the convenience of the House if I were to respond now to the noble Lords, Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos and Lord Jenkins of Hillhead. I imagine that we can then continue with the questioning.
Of course I fully accept the responsibility for the change in the business that I have invited the House to accept. I did my best in speaking to the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition but he made it quite clear that he did not think that that was the right course. I was under no illusions about that. Therefore, I fully accept the responsibility for making the decision that I made. It was a difficult decision and if the House thinks that I have got it wrong I can do no more than to apologise and to say that I am very sorry.
In my view it was not going to be possible for this House to fulfil its very important role in revising legislation in the then current atmosphere, with a major Statement to be made to the House—by whoever should repeat it, and probably after the debate had begun—which would have changed the matter substantially. I did not think that that was the best way for the House to proceed. That is why I took the view that I did.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, that it is important that this House should find an opportunity to debate these major issues. From what I gather from the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition such an arrangement has been made. If the indications that I have heard are correct, we should be able to have a significant debate on the coal industry tomorrow—the day before the other place discusses these matters. I should have thought that your Lordships might feel that that was a convenient way of dealing with these major issues before we proceed with the legislation.
Lord Harmar-Nicholls: My Lords, I attempted to intervene before my noble friend the Leader of the House answered because I did not want to give the impression of merely reiterating what he said. I feel
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that we should react against the advice that has been given by the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition. Common sense tells us that the atmosphere in which we would have considered the detail of the Committee stage that was planned has completely changed.
Briefing letters from the General Secretary of the Trades Union Congress—I have no doubt that many other noble Lords have also received them—made very impressive points, but they have been completely changed by what has happened during the past three or four days, and especially in the light of the Statement that we heard earlier this afternoon.
It is unreal to pretend that the contributions that would be made during a Committee stage now would be anything like the same as they would have been given the overriding feeling of despondency that has resulted from the Statement and all that has happened. It would be wise to recognise that. Although it will be a disappointment and perhaps an inconvenience to the many noble Lords who had expected to comment in Committee stage terms, their inconvenience comes very much second when it comes to applying common sense to the changed situation. Common sense tells us clearly that we should not carry on with the Committee stage as though nothing had happened.
Lord Wakeham: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for putting that point in the way that he did. I am sure that the substance of what he said is right.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords—
The Viscount Whitelaw: My Lords, as for the past—
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, it should be our side, but I defer to the noble Viscount.
Viscount Whitelaw: My Lords, as for the past, I do not expect that my noble friend will attach any value to my support, but personally I can only say that faced with that very difficult situation I should have done exactly the same myself. That may be regarded as a condemnation, but I must honestly say it. Equally. if I had been the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition I would have taken exactly the same position as he did on this matter and I happen to think that, from his point of view, he was right.
In a curious and funny way, as happens so often in your Lordships' House, I now believe that we have probably reached the right answer. We have spent a considerable time today discussing the Statement. All that would have been lost if we had continued with the business as planned. The noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition is right to put forward the idea of a Motion for consideration tomorrow. What could be better for your Lordships' House than to consider such a Motion the day before the other place? We could put our views tomorrow on the big issue facing us today—and a very big issue it is. It seems to me that that is getting the best of both worlds in the final event. I only hope that the House will now decide to accept what seems to be the best of both worlds.
Lord Wakeham: My Lords, I must say to the House that I feel considerably comforted by the fact that my noble friend believes that I made the right judgment at the time and indeed that the Leader of the Opposition also made the right judgment. I was seeking to find a way to pray in aid the letter from Mr. Norman Willis that my noble friend Lord Colnbrook mentioned earlier on, but I do not think I need bother to find a way now.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, I am sorry to have to speak again on this issue but the fact of the matter is that the Leader of the House cannot get away with it. If our business is now to be decided on the basis of atmosphere, where will we get to? Our business is decided, or has been decided, on the basis of agreement between all sides of the House as to what shall be on the Order Paper. If the Leader of the House and noble Lords on his side can suddenly come along and say that the atmosphere is not right, just exactly where are we getting to? Can I have his assurance that this will not occur again?
Lord Wakeham: My Lords, the noble Lord has spent probably more years in the mysteries of how business is organised than I. This is a most unusual set of circumstances. I apologise profusely for it having come about and I have no plans for a reoccurrence if I can possibly avoid it. As my noble friend the Chief Whip said, "never" is a word which I do not think it was right for me to use. But I do not anticipate it happening again.
Lord Ezra: My Lords, the question surely arises now as to when we will reach the Committee stage of the Bill. The reason for the postponement today is the uncertainty that has been created. The uncertainty will remain until the report—some of us had hoped for an independent inquiry—comes out at the end of this year, is then fully debated and a decision made about the future of the coal industry. Does the Leader of the House have in mind that the postponement might go on well into next year?
Lord Wakeham: My Lords, before I came here today I felt the right and proper thing to do was for the House to have a general debate on the current situation in the coal industry and then to discuss through the usual channels the best way to proceed with the Bill. That is the right way. After the debate on the coal industry tomorrow, which I very much welcome, I shall have discussions through the usual channels to decide on the best way to proceed with the Bill.
Lord Bruce of Donington: My Lords, the noble Lord has indicated a certain degree of flexibility about the use of the usual channels in determining the business of the House. As is well known, the country is in the grips of controversy at the moment about the constitutional position of the United Kingdom in relation to the European Community. It is well known that there appears to be a degree of agreement on this matter between Her Majesty's Government and Her Majesty's Opposition. May we have an assurance from the noble Lord that those of us who take a rather
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more independent attitude towards these matters, particularly those of considerable national gravity going right to the roots of the British Constitution, will be able to have some say as to the arrangement of the agenda for Parliament to discuss these matters?
Lord Wakeham: My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that there are important matters involving constitutional questions about which there are strongly-held views. There are not, I hope, similar strongly-held views about the constitutional position of the usual channels. But if we go on debating the usual channels for too long, that will happen as well. I hope that the usual channels will continue to facilitate the good workings of this House for many years in the future and I hope that the slight blip in the arrangements will be forgotten and forgiven before too long.
Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, understandably, we have concentrated on the coal industry today. Another important industry—the railway industry—is affected by the Bill and a great deal of uncertainty therefore extends over the future of that industry. Can the Leader of the House indicate when we shall be able to consider those elements as well?
Lord Wakeham: My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that it is an important Bill. We want to get on with it as soon as the House believes proper. I shall certainly arrange for discussions as soon as we have had the debate tomorrow.
Lord Monkswell: My Lords, I wish to thank the Leader of the House for his Statement. The way things seem to be evolving is eminently sensible in terms of the business of this House. However, something else needs to be recognised. Following the Government's Statement earlier this afternoon, it appears that they are going to tough it out. Effectively, we are seeing a rift between the government of this country and the people of this country. One of the points that concerns me is that from all over the nation people will be coming to London on Wednesday to lobby Parliament against the pit closures. There will be an enormous number of people outside the Palace of Westminster on Wednesday. We must recognise that those people have a legitimate right to lobby Parliament and to complain about the actions of the Government. I make a plea for the Leader of the House to speak to the Commissioner of Police who I believe has responsibility for keeping the highways open for access to Parliament and to advise the commissioner that his men on duty on Wednesday should treat with great sympathy and understanding the people of this land who will be lobbying Parliament against the pit closures. I urge that that information be transmitted to the Commissioner of Police.
Lord Wakeham: My Lords, I am very happy to convey the noble Lord's views about that matter. I am sure the whole House would want any lobby of Parliament to be conducted in a peaceful way, for the police to be supported and for those who want to

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exercise their democratic rights to do so in a peaceful and, from no doubt their point of view, persuasive way.
Lord Boyd-Carpenter: My Lords, in the context of tomorrow's business, no mention has been made of any Statement about the Birmingham meeting of European Heads of Government. Will such a Statement be made tomorrow?
Lord Wakeham: My Lords, my understanding is that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister is likely to make a Statement on Birmingham in another place tomorrow. If that is the case it will be repeated in this House if the House so wishes. I should be happy to do that should it be the wish of the House.
House adjourned at eight minutes past five o'clock.

  CYPRUS
  CYPRUS
  HUMAN RIGHTS CONVENTION: TENTH PROTOCOL
  HUMAN RIGHTS CONVENTION: TENTH PROTOCOL
  IRAQ: CEASE-FIRE AGREEMENT BREACHES
  IRAQ: CEASE-FIRE AGREEMENT BREACHES
  TIBET: WILDLIFE RESERVE
  TIBET: WILDLIFE RESERVE
  GENEVA CONVENTIONS: PROSECUTION OF BREACHES
  GENEVA CONVENTIONS: PROSECUTION OF BREACHES
  RELIEF OPERATIONS: RAF FLIGHTS
  RELIEF OPERATIONS: RAF FLIGHTS
  EMERGENCY FOOD AID FROM EC INTERVENTION STOCKS
  EMERGENCY FOOD AID FROM EC INTERVENTION STOCKS
  BOSNIA-HERZEGOVINA: PROTECTION OF RELIEF FLIGHTS
  BOSNIA-HERZEGOVINA: PROTECTION OF RELIEF FLIGHTS
  POLAR RESEARCH
  POLAR RESEARCH
  CONTRACEPTION RESEARCH
  CONTRACEPTION RESEARCH
  MEDICAL PROFESSION: INCOME LEVELS
  MEDICAL PROFESSION: INCOME LEVELS
  MEDICAL PROFESSION: PRESCRIPTION STATISTICS
  MEDICAL PROFESSION: PRESCRIPTION STATISTICS
  MEDICAL PROFESSION: PRESCRIPTION COSTS
  MEDICAL PROFESSION: PRESCRIPTION COSTS
  ITC: RELIGIOUS BROADCASTING
  ITC: RELIGIOUS BROADCASTING
  ITC: RELIGIOUS ADVERTISING
  ITC: RELIGIOUS ADVERTISING
  SOMERSET HOUSE
  SOMERSET HOUSE
  CYCLING
  CYCLING
  DEBT STATISTICS
  DEBT STATISTICS
  CRIMINAL PROCEEDINGS: CHILDREN'S EVIDENCE
  CRIMINAL PROCEEDINGS: CHILDREN'S EVIDENCE
  EUROPEAN FIGHTER AIRCRAFT
  EUROPEAN FIGHTER AIRCRAFT
  UK MILITARY FACILITIES: DEFENCE
  UK MILITARY FACILITIES: DEFENCE
  ANIMAL IDENTIFICATION: DRAFT DIRECTIVE
  ANIMAL IDENTIFICATION: DRAFT DIRECTIVE
  CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER: RESPONSIBILITIES IN SCOTLAND
  CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER: RESPONSIBILITIES IN SCOTLAND