Sitting of 22 October 1991

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
Oral Answers to Questions
  EMPLOYMENT

    Small Firms
    Mr. Bellingham: To ask the Secretary of State for Employment when he next plans to meet the chairman of Norfolk and Waveney TEC to discuss small firms.
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Eric Forth): My right hon. and learned Friend meets Mr. Lineker regularly at meetings of the group of ten training and enterprise council chairmen. This group of regional representatives of all of the TECs considers the full range of TEC activities, including support for small firms. My right hon. and learned Friend expects to chair the next group meeting in mid-November.
    Mr. Bellingham: When my right hon. and learned Friend meets representatives of Norfolk and Waveney TEC he will be told that the TEC regards the youth training scheme as an important priority. Does my hon. Friend agree that every youngster who wants to take a place on YTS should have the opportunity to do so? Does he also agree that, particularly in today's climate, it is crucial that TECs work closely with the enterprise agencies to help small firms? Will he applaud the Norfolk and Waveney TEC's decision to contract out to the enterprise agencies the enterprise allowance scheme?
    Mr. Forth: My hon. Friend is correct. The TECs, my hon. Friend's in particular, the Department of Employment and the Government give total and absolute priority to youth training, and it is through the TECs and their excellent work that that guarantee is being delivered. We are giving young people the training that they need.
    My hon. Friend also makes an important point about enterprise. TECs are a major part of the Government's continuing effort to encourage enterprise at all levels, particularly small firms which are a strong aspect of my hon. Friend's constituency. They make a decision based on local needs on how much work to give to enterprise agencies. I pay tribute to the work of the enterprise agencies and the TECs and, in particular, the work of my hon. Friend. I am sure that he keeps in the closest touch with his TEC to ensure that it does everything possible for the local community.
    Mr. Patrick Thompson: When my hon. Friend meets the chairman of Norfolk and Waveney TEC will he take the opportunity to discuss with him business people's attitudes towards training? Does he agree that it is
    778
    important that business people and industrialists now set up training initiatives, particularly in engineering, to avoid future skill shortages before the problem arises?
    Mr. Forth: Yes. It will be well known to my hon. Friend that the great bulk of training has been, is and will continue to be done in the private sector by employers. However, the TECs have, as one of their main tasks, to identify training needs in each locality and to work with doneemployers to identify how that can best be done, so bringing together the efforts of the Government through TECs and the private sector to deliver the best possible quality of training. That is done, and the new investors in people initiative, launched by my right hon. and learned Friend just a few days ago, is yet another important step in emphasising the importance in the private sector of a continuing training effort, and that will continue to be the case.

    Industrial Relations
    Mr. Riddick: To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many representations he has received in response to the Green Paper issued in July.
    The Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Michael Howard): As of yesterday, 49 had been received. The closing date for receipt of representations is tomorrow.
    Mr. Riddick: Will not the proposals contained in the Green Paper continue the excellent work of the Government's previous trade union legislation and give more power and influence to individual citizens and individual trade union members? Does my right hon. and learned Friend believe that the Labour party's representations will be affected in any way by the recent election of a communist as the deputy general secretary of Labour's greatest paymaster, the Transport and General Workers Union?
    Mr. Howard: I am looking forward to the Opposition's representations in response to the Green Paper. There is still time for those representations to be received and I assume that the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman will be rushing away from questions this afternoon to put the finishing touches to his representations.
    My hon. Friend is right on his last point. There may no longer be room for communists in Warsaw, Prague or East Berlin. They may have been ejected from the Kremlin, but there will always be a welcome for them at Transport house.
    Mr. Skinner: Will the Minister answer this question? During the past few weeks, there have been statements that Britain has the lowest strike record for 30 years. But we have the biggest depression and recession since the end of the second world war. How can the unions, communists or any such people, be to blame?
    Mr. Howard: As a result of the laws passed by the Government, we have the lowest number of strikes for about 60 years. Is the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) suggesting that the real remedy for any ills that we may be suffering at the moment is to make it easier for people to strike? Of course that is the remedy suggested by his Front-Bench spokesman.
    Mr. Summerson: Has my right hon. and learned Friend received any representations about the citizens charter

    779
    proposal to give members of the public the right to stop unlawful public sector strikes? Does he agree that it is high time that Labour made clear its views on that?
    Mr. Howard: Yes. That proposal has been widely welcomed and, as I said earlier, I await with eager anticipation representations on it from the Labour party.
    Mr. Tony Lloyd: Will the Secretary of State tell the House about the representation received from Conservative trade unionists? In particular, can he say whether it is accurate that they said that the balance had already swung too far against trade unions and that they, like everybody else, regard the Secretary of State as a right-wing loony?
    Mr. Howard: I am sorry to disappoint the hon. Gentleman. We have yet to receive representations on the Green Paper from Conservative trade unionsts. The hon. Gentleman is falling into the customary trap of relying on unsubstantiated newspaper reports, which on this occasion appear to have little basis in truth.

    Labour Statistics
    Mr. Win Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many men and women were in full-time employment in the United Kingdom, and in each standard planning region, in June 1979 and at the latest date for which figures are available.
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Robert Jackson): Information relating to full-time employment in Northern Ireland is not

    Civilian workforce in employment1

    Thousands

    Standard regions

    Male all

    Female full time

    June 1979

    June 1991

    June 1979

    June 1991

    South East

    4,839

    4,736

    2,006

    2,366

    Greater London2

    n/a

    2,115

    n/a

    1,137

    East Anglia

    481

    538

    178

    240

    South West

    1,032

    1,139

    417

    503

    West Midlands

    1,462

    1,329

    550

    590

    East Midlands

    1,013

    990

    393

    440

    Yorkshire and Humberside

    1,302

    1,197

    480

    521

    North West

    1,700

    1,485

    719

    692

    North

    802

    678

    314

    303

    Wales

    716

    661

    276

    287

    Scotland

    1,333

    1,228

    597

    582

    Great Britain

    14,677

    13,981

    5,934

    6,577

    1 The civilian workforce in employment comprises employees in employment, the self-employed and participants on work related government training programmes.

    2 Included in South East.

    Unemployment
    Mr. Hain: To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will make a statement on the current level of unemployment.
    Mr. Andrew MacKay: To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will make a statement on the current level of unemployment.
    Mr. Howard: Unemployment in the United Kingdom on a seasonally adjusted basis rose by 35,700 between August and September to 2,461,000. No one should underestimate the human difficulties that lie behind the
    780
    available. Total male civilian employment and full-time female civilian employment is available for each of the standard regions. As the reply contains a statistical table, I shall, with permission, arrange for it to be published in the Official Report.
    Mr. Griffiths: I am not surprised that the Minister did not venture to give a figure. Is not it true that employment in the United Kingdom as a whole is down by almost 1 million compared with June 1979, that in Wales there are 116,000 fewer jobs for men and that overall there are 70,000 fewer jobs in the economy? Does the Minister think that this loss of jobs and the increase in unemployment is a price that is well worth paying?
    Mr. Jackson: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman's facts are wrong. Since 1979 there has been an overall increase of about 800,000 in the number of men and women in work. If we take as our starting point the end of the last recession, there has been an increase in Wales of 167,000. That is a 17 per cent. increase, which is well above the United Kingdom average.
    Mr. Bevan: Does my hon. Friend agree that part-time jobs are important, especially to women? Why do not the Opposition stop denigrating them?
    Mr. Jackson: My hon. Friend is right. Part-time jobs are important. It is sometimes suggested that people with part-time jobs would prefer full-time jobs. That question has been canvassed in opinion surveys, and recent surveys of part-time workers show that only 6 per cent. of them want to work full time.
    The following is the information:
    figures and I certainly do not, but September's increase was the smallest for nearly a year and is further indication that the rate of increase is slowing.
    Mr. Hain: Is the Secretary of State aware of the plight of one of my constituents, Mr. John Smith of Gwaun-Cae-Gurwen, who is aged 43 and has five children? Mr. Smith is an unemployed salesman with more than 25 years experience and has applied for 1,200 jobs in the past 19 months. Is not his plight testimony to the bankruptcy of Government policies in general and Howard's way in particular?
    Mr. Howard: Everyone must have sympathy with the hon. Gentleman's constituent and those who find themselves in similar circumstances, but I hope that the hon. Gentleman will ask himself whether the policies advocated by his party —to make it easier to strike, to embrace the proposals of the European Commission's social action programme, which would add so much in costs and burdens to British employers, and to introduce a national statutory minimum wage, which would destroy countless jobs—would help his constituent and those in a similar position.
    Mr. Andrew MacKay: Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that those who are rightly worried about unemployment should treat strictures from Opposition Members with some caution? Surely they will recall that under every single Labour Government unemployment has steadily risen rather than fallen. As my right hon. and learned Friend just confirmed, a national minimum wage would simply lead to more people on the dole.
    Mr. Howard: My hon. Friend is correct. Under every Labour Government but one since 1929, unemployment has doubled. In the case of the one exception, it increased by 54 per cent.
    Mr. Wigley: Does the Secretary of State accept that there has been a significant change in the pattern of unemployment during the past two or three years? By now some intermediate areas have higher levels of unemployment than some of those designated as development areas. In those circumstances, when will the Government reconsider the development area strategy to help those areas that are at present intermediate but certainly need more assistance?
    Mr. Howard: These matters are constantly kept under review, but I doubt whether the hon. Gentleman's suggestion would represent the solution that he supposes to the difficulties that we are encountering at present. The answer lies in restoring our competitiveness, overcoming inflation and recreating the conditions that have led to a record creation of jobs —well over 2·5 million since 1983.
    Mr. Batiste: Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that in constituencies such as mine, unemployment is significantly lower than it was at the time of the last election? Jobs would be put at risk if the Government adopted the policies to which the Labour party is committed, such as massive defence expenditure cuts above those already introduced, which would put the future of the Challenger tank at risk. A statutory minimum wage would also wipe out thousands of jobs in Yorkshire.
    Mr. Howard: My hon. Friend is correct in what he says. What he has identified as true of his constituency and Yorkshire would be reproduced across the country. The policies that the Labour party advances would be disastrous for employment. That is understood by my hon. Friend and, indeed, by the country generally.
    Mr. Blair: Is the Secretary of State aware of the chambers of commerce quarterly survey which will be out this Thursday and shows that jobs are continuing to be shed at an alarming rate in both the service and manufacturing industries? Does he also realise that as a result of rising unemployment and the cuts in his Department's budget, his Government are simply no longer meeting their guarantee of a training place to the
    782
    young and the unemployed who have been shunted in their thousands on to training queues? The Secretary of State may dispute that, but if we provide him with the evidence that these waiting lists exist, will he undertake here and now to provide the funds necessary to remove them and honour the Government's promises?
    Mr. Howard: The hon. Gentleman will know full well that the survey of the chambers of commerce of which both he and I have been provided with advance copies —it is to be published on Thursday—shows a substantial increase in business confidence on the part of those who responded to that survey. [Interruption.] Yes, I have read it. It will not do for the hon. Gentleman to deny that such encouraging evidence exists. It does him and his party no credit that he should constantly and obsessively seek to identify bad news and ignore the good news which exists in the very document that he cites as evidence.
    On the subject of training guarantees, we are delivering and are committed to those guarantees. They will continue to be made good and implemented by the training and enterprise councils which are now responsible for their implementation.

    Labour Statistics
    Mr. Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what are the total numbers on the list of employed who are counted more than once.
    Mr. Forth: Precise information on the number of people with more than one job included in the published work force in employment estimates is not available. However, the labour force survey estimated that 724,000 people held a second job as an employee in the spring of 1990.
    Mr. Flynn: Does not the Minister's admission that some three quarters of a million people are counted twice in the employment figures—as well as trainees who are counted as though they were in full-time professional jobs, and part-timers who are counted as though they were full-timers—prove that the Government's much-parroted claims about employment levels constitute a monumental lie? Instead of running away from the rigorous examination of his policies carried out in a television studio, and instead of attacking the BBC, should not the Secretary of State try something new? Should he not adopt a novel—novel in his case, that is—approach to the employment figures, and tell the truth?
    Mr. Forth: If the rather over-the-top strictures that the hon. Gentleman has tried to apply to the Government were remotely true, they would also be true of what was done by his party when it was in government. The House should be aware that the method of counting used in this instance is exactly the same as it has been for 20 years—since 1971, if not earlier. I did not hear any of the hon. Gentleman's colleagues make the same point when their party was in office.
    When an employer-based survey method is used, as it has been in this instance, the sort of counting that I mentioned earlier will be adopted. Let me give another example. The same counting method is used in France, a country often held up by Opposition Members as a socialist ideal. Presumably, any strictures that the hon. Member for Newport, West (Mr. Flynn) applies to us will also apply to that country.
    Mr. Squire: Given the dismissive way in which the hon. Member for Newport, West (Mr. Flynn) referred to part-time jobs a moment ago, will my hon. Friend confirm that only about 6 per cent. of those in part-time work claim that they are seeking full-time work? That means that 94 per cent. of people in part-time work who were looking for such work, have found it and are happy in it.
    Mr. Forth: Indeed. My hon. Friend makes an important point, which echoes the point made so forcefully by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Mr. Bevan).
    Opposition Members deliberately avoid the fact that the bulk of people in part-time jobs choose, and want, to work part-time. It is a matter of choice. I know that choice is anathema to Opposition Members, but Conservative Members rather want to defend choice wherever that is possible, in every aspect of Government policy. If Opposition Members do not like that, they should stand up and say so.
    Mr. McLeish: When will the ministerial team apologise to the nation for its unique record, and its unique failure in regard to labour market policies? Will the Secretary of State and his team tell us why 790,000 people have joined the dole queue in a year, why 662,000 have lost their jobs, why 43,000 fewer training places have been provided over the last year and why there are 53,000 vacancies? Will they also tell us why—most worrying of all—in a year in which unemployment rose by 800,000 in Europe, 700,000 of those people were unemployed in Britain? We have a unique recession. When will the Secretary of State start apologising to the country?
    Mr. Forth: The hon. Gentleman has outdone even his dismal record for selective quotation.
    If the hon. Gentleman wishes to make European comparisons, by all means let us do so. Socialist France, for instance, has an unemployment figure higher than ours, and the socialist Government in Spain manage to continue in office with an unemployment figure some 50 per cent. higher than ours. The more that we make such comparisons, the less we can understand why Opposition Members keep trying to use them. They are simply no good.

    Employment Action
    Mr. Atkinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what representations he has received about the employment action programme; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Howard: I have received many favourable responses to this new programme from training and enterprise councils and others. The programme is now in operation. The first people joined it some three weeks ago. We are on course as planned to have 30,000 participants by March next year, with 60,000 helped in 1992–93.
    Mr. Atkinson: Following yesterday's welcome announcement of a new allowance for disabled working people, can my right hon. and learned Friend confirm that there will be opportunities under his proposals for disabled people—including the mentally ill and mentally handicapped—to gain work experience? Does he agree that the TUC's boycott of his excellent programme is utterly callous and irresponsible?
    Mr. Howard: I can indeed confirm that people with disabilities will be given preferential access to the employment action programme, and that they will not need a qualifying period of unemployment. Indeed, people with disabilities have generally been given higher priority on the Government's training schemes for some months now and, for the first time, have been part of the aim group.
    On the second point, my hon. Friend is absolutely right. It was disgraceful that the Trades Union Congress should boycott employment action and turn its back on those unemployed people to whom this Government are giving hope.
    Mr. Leighton: Is the Secretary of State aware that the Employment Select Committee has placed in the Library copies of letters that it has received from 60 training and enterprise councils, which tell us that they are struggling and finding it virtually impossible to implement the employment training and youth training guarantees because of a shortage of cash? In view of those letters, will the Secretary of State resist Treasury attempts to make further cuts and obtain a substantial increase in his budget from the public expenditure round so that the TECs can do their jobs properly?
    Mr. Howard: The question is about employment action. That is securely funded. Places will be provided in the way that I have suggested. We are committed to the guarantees on employment training and youth training. Those guarantees are being delivered. There can be no question other than that the TECs will have the resources that they need to deliver those guarantees in the next financial year, which is the subject of the current public expenditure survey.
    Mr. John Marshall: Does my right hon. and learned Friend find it surprising that Opposition Members are opposed to employment action that would help the unemployed, while, at the same time, they want to create unemployment through a national minimum wage?
    Mr. Howard: Very little surprises me about the Opposition, but it is noteworthy that, despite the fact that they claim to care for unemployed people, they resist almost every initiative that is designed to help unemployed people. Despite the fact that they purport to care about training, they resist almost every training initiative that this Government have introduced. Their words do not match up, nor do their words match the actions for which they were responsible when they were last in government.
    Mr. Wallace: The 30,000 places referred to by the Secretary of State pale into insignificance when compared with the rise of 230,000 unemployed since he announced employment action. When the Under-Secretary of State gave a written answer to the Chairman of the Select Committee, the hon. Member for Newham, North-East (Mr. Leighton) in June highlighting the differences between employment action and the old community programme, he omitted two very important distinctions —the difference in funding and the difference in the number of places available. If the Secretary of State is unable substantially to expand his scheme, does it mean that he lacks confidence in his scheme or that he has lost the battle against the Chief Secretary to the Treasury?
    Mr. Howard: The hon. Gentleman totally fails to take into account the range of opportunities that are now available to help unemployed people—opportunities that were not available when the community programme was in existence. There was no employment training then, nor the range of ways in which we now help unemployed people through the Employment Service. This year we shall be helping 840,000 unemployed people, over and above the help that we give to every unemployed person when he or she comes into the job centre to sign on. That is what the hon. Gentleman has to take into account if he is to make a fair comparison.

    Labour Statistics
    Mr. Pawsey: To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many people are now employed in those travel-to-work areas situated in or adjacent to Warwickshire; and what was the comparable figure for 1983.
    Mr. Jackson: It is difficult to make the precise comparisons sought by my hon. Friend, but using the information which is available there was an increase of employees in employment in the Warwickshire area from 1,064,200 in September 1984 to 1,118,300 in September 1989.
    Mr. Pawsey: I thank my hon. Friend for his extremely helpful and interesting reply. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is pleasing that at a time of some unemployment we see the number of jobs growing in and around Warwickshire? Will he join me in congratulating local authorities, such as the Warwickshire county council, the Rugby borough council and the Warwick district council on pursuing an enlightened policy that has attracted business and industry to the county of Warwick, so reducing unemployment and increasing the number of jobs?
    Mr. Jackson: I am happy to join my hon. Friend in congratulating those local authorities. I take this opportunity also to pay tribute to the excellent work, together with the local authority, of the Coventry and Warwickshire training and enterprise council under the leadership of Geoffrey Whalen. This year they are spending £·31·28 million of taxpayers money on training and enterprise and are doing a very good job.
    Mr. Nellist: Does the Minister accept that unemployed workers in the west midlands, adjacent to Warwickshire, face almost twice the unemployment to vacancy ratio, at 37·6 per cent., as in the remainder of the country? Is not it therefore twice as hard to escape from the dole queue? Was not that position made immeasurably more difficult last week when 1,300 mining jobs in Coventry and Warwickshire were axed by British Coal?
    Will the Minister accept a short, sharp message from the miners, their families and others who face redundancy in Coventry and Warwickshire: that the best way to save jobs is to sack the Tory Government?
    Mr. Jackson: Of course, we are concerned when there are any large-scale redundancies and the Employment Service stands ready to assist. I shall inquire about what is being done by the Employment Service in the case that the hon. Gentleman mentioned. I know that it is very active in any cases of large-scale redundancies.

    Pay Regulation
    Sir John Farr: To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what proposals he has to regulate pay.
    Mr. Howard: I have no plans to introduce legislation to regulate pay. Pay is a matter best determined by the parties concerned in the light of their particular circumstances.
    Sir John Farr: Has my right hon. and learned Friend seen the report by UBS Phillips and Drew that the second stage of the Opposition's minimum wage policy would destroy 1·4 million jobs? Will my right hon. and learned Friend comment on that?
    Mr. Howard: Yes, I have seen that report and I take it seriously. Just a few days ago, the hon. Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Blair) said on the radio that the introduction of a statutory national minimum wage would not cost a single job. During our debate last Wednesday, I repeatedly offered him the opportunity to cite any independent survey that supported his assertion. Quite unaccountably, he declined to take that opportunity. He cannot cite a single survey that supports his assertion.
    Mr. McAllion: Is the Minister aware that, even without the national minimum wage, another 155 Dundonians joined the dole queue yesterday following the announcement of yet more job losses in a local manufacturing company? The company explained that it had to axe the jobs because of the continuing recession, which the Minister tells us is now over. Whom are we to believe— hard-pressed companies faced with a savage recession and forced to put workers on to the dole, or Westminster-bound Ministers, probably high on magic mushrooms, who imagine that they see economic growth everywhere?
    Mr. Howard: We are coming out of recession, but, sadly, unemployment is always one of the last things to turn as an economy comes out of recession. I regret that as much as the hon. Gentleman does, but how does it provide any justification for wantonly adding to the ranks of the unemployed by pursuing the policies advanced by the Labour party?
    Mrs. Currie: Would not a national minimum wage, instead of helping the low paid —many of whom are women—simply make low-paid work illegal? Are not there two dangers in that? The first, which my right hon. and learned Friend has already highlighted, is that many such jobs would disappear. The second is that many of those jobs would slide into the black economy, with a loss of rights for the women concerned in terms of the protection of health and safety at work, much of which is Conservative legislation. Would not there also be the loss of income tax and national insurance contributions?
    Mr. Howard: My hon. Friend is entirely right to draw attention to another real danger that would arise from the Opposition's lunatic proposals. It is far better to help those on low pay who need help by making family credit available to them, as we do.
    Mr. Blair: Will the Minister confirm that not only does he oppose Labour's proposal for a national minimum wage of £3·40 an hour, but he plans to abolish the existing wages councils, making Britain the only country anywhere in Europe—this applies also to the United States—that has no minimum wage protection? Will not 2·5 million

    787
    people, mainly women, lose protection at law as a result of that policy? The Minister will irrevocably stamp his party not just as the party of mass unemployment, but as the party of poverty pay.
    Mr. Howard: When I saw the hon. Gentleman rise to his feet, I hoped that he would at last provide some corroboration of his unsubstantiated assertion that his national minimum wage policy would not cost a single job. But of course he cannot do that. Instead he continues to make his misleading comparisons with countries in Europe that do not have the lunatic policy that his party wishes to foist on this country, because they know of the damaging consequences that would flow from it and because they have read the studies of the OECD, the International Monetary Fund and other bodies that have said how many jobs would be lost as a result of its introduction. We have made it perfectly clear that we do not see a permanent place for wages councils in the way in which our economy is regulated and, as the hon. Gentleman knows well, we made that clear a long time ago.

    Employment Offices (Leeds)
    Mr. Battle: To ask the Secretary of State for Employment when his Department intends to (a) reopen a jobcentre in the Leeds, West constituency and (b) provide at least one job club in the Leeds, West constituency.
    Mr. Jackson: I remember that the hon. Gentleman raised this matter in January. I have looked at it again, but, as he knows, we have no plans to reopen a jobcentre in Leeds, West. Clients in the area are served by the integrated jobcentre at Stanningley. Jobcentre facilities are available in nearby Pudsey, Yeadon and central Leeds. We do not have plans for a job club in Leeds, West because constituents can use the job club facilities at Pudsey jobcentre, which is within easy travelling distance, and in central Leeds, where facilities are being extended following my right hon. and learned Friend's announcement on 19 June about extra job club places.
    Mr. Battle: Is the Minister aware that in a written question on 26 February 1981 one of his predecessors promised the House that he would defer the closure of jobcentres until unemployment fell? Is he further aware that unemployment in my constituency rose by 42 per cent. between last September and this September? Will he confirm that people who have to travel from my constituency to visit job clubs and jobcentres have to pay for that? What action will he take to provide a service to my unemployed constituents, or is he trying to pretend that they do not exist?
    Mr. Jackson: We make no such pretence. For the enlightenment of the House, I must say that the nearest jobcentre at Stanningley is only one and a half miles away from the hon. Gentleman's constituency. I do not think that he has a good case. The services that are provided by jobcentres are being much improved. Hon. Members who visit their jobcentres—I hope that they all do—will know that that is true. They are being improved in the hon. Gentleman's area and I do not believe that he has a fair ground for complaint.
    Mr. Battle: On a point of order. Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I give notice that I intend to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    Unemployment (Crewe and Nantwich)
    Mrs. Dunwoody: To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will visit the Crewe and Nantwich constituency to discuss the unemployment figures for May and June.
    Mr. Forth: My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State has no immediate plans to visit the area. There were 3,851 unemployed claimants in the Crewe and Nantwich constituency in September 1991, which is more than 33 per cent. fewer than in September 1983, when unemployment was at its peak in the constituency.
    Mrs. Dunwoody: Is the Minister aware that my constituency has one of the most rapidly rising unemployment rates and that, despite the desperate need for rolling stock, firms of the quality of British Rail Engineering Ltd. cannot fill their order books? Rolls-Royce Ltd., which has a history of providing high-quality engineering, shut down at extremely short notice without any indication that this would be the last layoff between now and Christmas. What hope does he have for the employees of those companies or for people who are desperately looking for employment?
    Mr. Forth: I can well understand the hon. Lady's concern about the extent of the job losses that her constituents have experienced. That concern is widely shared, not least among my colleagues and myself. She asked for hope. Between April and September 1991, almost 80 per cent. of the 1,700 restart interviewees in the Crewe area found either jobs, training or other positive outcomes. Job clubs in Crewe have helped 98 people into jobs since April, and the South and East Cheshire TEC— one of the most dynamic and successful TECs—is fully operational in her area. It is well understood by Conservative Members that 50 per cent. of people who unfortunately lose their jobs, including in the hon. Lady's constituency, find themselves back in employment within three months. That is something positive for people to look for. We shall do all that we can to help them to do just that.

    Youth Training
    Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many Government training places were available for young people aged 16 to 18 years in (a) 1978–79 and (b) currently.
    Mr. Howard: In England and Wales in 1978–79 there were on average about 6,000 young people receiving training in the youth opportunities programme compared with 260.000 now in youth training.
    Mr. Amess: Will my right hon. and learned Friend confirm that 89 per cent. of the people who complete youth training go straight into jobs or on to further education —a far better start than Labour was ever able to provide? Will my right hon. and learned Friend also confirm that it is wrong for local socialists to say that the Government do not guarantee training places for our young people in Basildon?
    Mr. Howard: I can confirm both points. It is true that 89 per cent. of those who complete youth training go into jobs or on to further education. Some 68 per cent. do so with a qualification. That is a measure of the improvement in the quality of the training opportunities now available to our young people. I can confirm also that the guarantee is being met in Essex. Recently, we made additional resources available to the Essex training and enterprise council to ensure that the guarantee was fully met.
    Mrs. Fyfe: The Secretary of State seems to think that he gave a full reply to the question, but he gave information on only England and Wales. Does he recall that this is supposed to be a United Kingdom Parliament? Will he therefore give the figures for Scotland?
    Mr. Howard: The latest figures for Scotland are not yet available because the local enterprise companies in Scotland have not made them available to the Scottish Office. I shall ensure that the hon. Lady gets the figures as soon as possible.
    Mr. Anthony Coombs: Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that Central Employment Recruitment and Training Ltd. in my constituency was the first organisation to get an employment action scheme up and running and that that has proved to be a valuable scheme? Is not it an absolute disgrace that, faced with the largest youth training programme in Europe and with employment training and the employment action scheme, the only reaction of the Transport and General Workers Union —which sponsors the hon. Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Blair)—was to boycott those programmes?
    Mr. Howard: My hon. Friend is entirely right. We are still waiting for a single word of criticism to pass the lips of the hon. Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Blair) and the Leader of the Opposition—both of whom are sponsored by the TGWU—about that union's disgraceful decision in July to boycott youth training, employment training and the training and enterprise councils. Those are the men who are supposed to galvanise the nation. They cannot even persuade their own trade union to turn its back on that disgraceful boycott.

    Unemployment
    Mr. Hinchliffe: To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will make a statement about the level of unemployment in Yorkshire and Humberside.
    Mr. Jackson: Seasonally adjusted unemployment in the Yorkshire and Humberside region was 220,000 in September 1991. This represents 9·1 per cent. of the region's work force. Unemployment in September was 74,000 lower than at its peak in July 1986.
    Mr. Hinchliffe: Bearing in mind the fact that the Wakefield area alone has lost about 20,000 mining-related jobs since 1979, what assessment have the Government made of the implications for employment prospects in that area of the delay in constructing the channel tunnel rail link to Yorkshire? Is not it disgraceful that the Government appear to be more concerned with the interests and problems of certain Tory marginals in London than with the employment potential of thousands of jobs in the north of England?
    Mr. Jackson: I shall draw the hon. Gentleman's question to the attention of my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Transport because it relates to his Department. As for my Department, I have already said in answering the hon. Member for Coventry, South-East (Mr. Nellist) in relation to large-scale redundancies in the coal mining industry that I shall ensure that the Employment Service is providing a full service in this case, as in all other cases of large-scale redundancies.

    Stoppages
    Mr. Jessel: To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many stoppages occurred in the 12 months to December 1990; how many in the previous 12 months; what was the annual average in the 10-year period ending December 1989; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Forth: There were 630 stoppages in the 12 months to December 1990, 701 in the previous 12 months and an annual average in the 1980s of 1,129. Provisional figures for the year to August 1991 show there have been 420 stoppages, the lowest number of any 12-month period since the year to April 1934.
    Mr. Jessel: Is not it a tremendous benefit to the country that, as a result of action taken by the Conservative Government, strikes are practically a thing of the past? Does my hon. Friend remember the last year of the Labour Government—the winter of discontent—when strikers in the national health service stopped sick people getting into hospital, dead bodies went unburied and verminous refuse was left in the streets?
    Mr. Forth: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for reminding the House of those factors. The 1·9 million working days lost in 1990 were a quarter of the average for the 1980s and one seventh of the average for the 1970s. That must be not only a tribute to the legislative programme pursued by the Government through the 1980s, hut, I suspect, one of the main reasons for the enormous inflow of investment and jobs which expressed the confidence of people abroad, even if we do not have it from the Opposition.

  PRIME MINISTER

    Engagements
    Dr. Twinn: To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 22 October.
    The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. John MacGregor): I have been asked to reply.
    My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is returning from a highly successful performance at the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in Harare.
    Dr. Twinn: Will my right hon. Friend take time today to consult our right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence about the effects of a 27 per cent. cut in the defence budget? Will he further consult about the effects —especially on Scottish regiments—of a 50 per cent. cut in the defence budget?
    Mr. MacGregor: I think that my hon. Friend is referring to the policies of the Labour and Liberal parties on defence. The Labour party's conference proposals, which a future Labour Government would be pressurised into accepting, would mean defence cuts of about £6 billion —[Interruption.];
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The Leader of the House must put his own interpretation on the question.
    Mr. MacGregor: He is also answering the question. That would be more than the nation spends on the Army and Navy together. The Liberal's proposals would mean a cut in the Army of nearly 50,000 men below the level set out in "Options for Change". That is the equivalent of no Scottish regiments and no soldiers from Scotland. I hope that the whole nation and especially those with interests in defence and defence jobs will note the consequences of their policies and the contrast with ours.
    Mr. Kinnock: Will the right hon. Gentleman take this opportunity to agree with the Secretary of State for Health in repudiating tax relief on private health insurance for the over–60s, or does he agree with the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the scheme should be commended as
    "definitely a way of getting more resources into the Health Service."—[Official Report, 12 July 1989; Vol. 156, c. 1024.]
    Mr. MacGregor: My right. hon. Friend was making it clear that he did not believe that there should be an extension of that particular scheme. Obviously, tax proposals are a matter for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor.
    Mr. Kinnock: The right hon. Gentleman's memory is not serving him well. Just 48 hours ago the Secretary of State for Health said that he would not be at all surprised if the whole scheme was dropped in the next Budget. I remind the right hon. Gentleman that over a three-year period the Government are spending £150 million on supporting private health insurance. Would not that sum be better spent on maintaining and improving services in the national health service for elderly patients who are being hit by the closure of geriatric wards?
    Mr. MacGregor: The right hon. Gentleman knows that the figure is £60 million. Perhaps he should now answer the question that was put repeatedly yesterday and that has not been answered. How does the Labour party propose to fund and find the additional £650 million which would result from its changes in policies on charges, contracting out and the minimum wage? Those policies would reduce patient care and the Labour party refuses to answer.
    Mr. Kinnock: Will the right hon. Gentleman, deputising for the Prime Minister, now answer the question that I asked him? The Secretary of State for Health has repudiated the private scheme. The Chancellor of the Exchequer supports the scheme. What does the right hon. Gentleman think? Does he agree that the money would be better spent in the national health service helping the elderly with their needs instead of funding private health insurance?
    Mr. MacGregor: I have already made it clear that what my right hon. Friend said was that he did not believe that there should be any extension of the scheme. The point is that the £60 million being devoted to the scheme is very
    792
    small compared with the £650 million that would be taken away from patient care as a result of the Labour party's changes in policy.
    Mr. Michael Brown: To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 22 October.
    Mr. MacGregor: I have been asked to reply.
    I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Brown: Will my right hon. Friend reflect today, as we complete the 12th Session of this Government, that after those 12 years, 1·4 million people now own their council homes and 9 million people are now shareholders for the first time? Will my right hon. Friend confirm that those people will look forward to the Prime Minister's proposals for the reform of inheritance tax? Will he condemn those who oppose that reform, who are displaying not only the politics of envy, but the politics of revenge?
    Mr. MacGregor: I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. One of the many great achievements of the 1980s has been the big increase in and wider spread of ownership throughout the community. It is no wonder that the Labour party looks to inheritance tax as a means of financing its high-spending policies. As my hon. Friend points out, Labour opposed all the policies that have brought about the greater increase in home ownership and the much wider spread of share ownership.
    Mr. Cousins: Is not it disgraceful that neither the Prime Minister nor any Cabinet minister has met representatives of the people and the police from Newcastle upon Tyne, where every day police and fire officers face more incidents than anywhere else in Britain, where every day, because of poll tax capping, care, schools and youth clubs are being cut and where every day, old people and women face a relentless campaign and a wave of crime and harassment? Is not that the real city challenge and have not the Government failed?
    Mr. MacGregor: It is this Government who have constantly increased resources to the police, who have put police pay on a competitive level, who have considerably increased the numbers of police, who have supported them in all the difficult tasks that they do and who throughout have taken many steps to deal with the sort of problems that the hon. Gentleman mentions. It is this party which has put substantial resources and substantial support behind them.
    Mr. Allason: Has my right hon. Friend read early-day motion 1286 on today's Order Paper? Will he ask the Prime Minister, as head of the security and intelligence services, to order an immediate inquiry into the alleged relationship between the Israeli intelligence service and Robert Maxwell and especially Mr. Nicholas Davies, the news editor of the Daily Mirror?
    Mr. MacGregor: If any questions are raised about export sales to Iran—about this issue—which justify an investigation by the Department of Trade and Industry and any evidence is provided, I am sure that it will do so.
    Mr. Ashdown: Does the right hon. Gentleman feel any remorse at the fact that, over the next few months,

    793
    thousands of business men and tens of thousands of their employees will pay with their jobs and their livelihoods for the Government's economic mismanagement?
    Mr. MacGregor: The right hon. Gentleman knows that the most important way to ensure long-term prosperity and competitiveness is to get inflation down to competitive levels, as we have succeeded in doing. The right hon. Gentleman also knows that. throughout the 1980s, we saw substantial increases in the number of new businesses that have lasted, in the number of growing businesses and in new jobs. Of course, we regret the increase in unemployment, but I believe that it is our policies that will give us the path for growth in the 1990s that we had in the 1980s. It is important to recollect that about half those who become unemployed find a new job within three months. The policies that we have been pursuing have enabled that to happen.

    York
    Mr. Gregory: To ask the Prime Minister if he has any plans to make an official visit to York.
    Mr. MacGregor: I have been asked to reply.
    My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is to make a series of visits to all parts of the country and very much hopes to include York.
    Mr. Gregory: My right hon. Friend will no doubt recall the campaign by animal lovers in York and, in particular, by the York branch of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, to outlaw the export of live horses. Will he accept the grateful thanks of all those involved for the determined stand taken by the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food last night, to ensure that our national rules continue and that such deplorable exports do not take place?
    Mr. MacGregor: I am well aware of the feelings in York. All hon. Members—certainly Conservative Members—are well aware of the concern felt by many at the possibility of changes in relation to our existing trade in horses policy, especially our restrictions on the export of live horses for slaughter. I am sure, therefore, that the whole House will wish to congratulate my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food on securing a most successful outcome to the Community negotiations and on ensuring that our policies on that issue can be maintained.
    I would go further. On the directive as a whole, there is no doubt that the United Kingdom has taken the lead in ensuring proper welfare safeguards in the transport of animals and that we have achieved significant improvements. That shows the high priority that we have attached to the matter.

    Engagements
    Mr. Morgan: To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 22 October.
    Mr. MacGregor: I have been asked to reply.
    I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave a few moments ago.
    Mr. Morgan: Following the statement by the Secretary of State for Health to the House yesterday, to the effect that it was illegal for NHS patients to be charged for services —except for the three categories prescribed by law —what redress does the right hon. Gentleman, who is standing in for the Prime Minister today, suggest to my constituent, Mr. Charlie Harding of Ely, who was charged £100 for his nebuliser by Llandough hospital's chest medicine department and who is still paying £32 a year for the nebuliser to be maintained? Mr. Harding was torpedoed during world war 2 and is now being torpedoed again by this two-faced Government, who say that charging is wrong but who do not do anything about it? What redress does the right hon. Gentleman have in mind to help Charlie Harding get his money back?
    Mr. MacGregor: I understand that the health authority has provided the nebuliser on loan and the hon. Gentleman will know —
    Mr. Morgan: It is a different case.
    Mr. MacGregor: In one particular case, the equipment has been provided on loan. With regard to other cases, I wish to make the position absolutely clear. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has made it clear that there will be no charges for patients on the national health service and we will look at cases where payments have already been made.
    Mr. Brandon-Bravo: Like my hon. Friends, I know that my right hon. Friend very much welcomes the statement by the Secretary of State for Health yesterday, especially with regard to our additional provision for residential homes. Will my right hon. Friend note, comment upon and compare our caring approach on residential homes with the approach of the Labour party, whose friends in Nottinghamshire have spent the past six months trying to close the 12 homes in our county?
    Mr. MacGregor: I agree with my hon. Friend. The policies that we have been pursuing in respect of care in the community, which includes residential homes, have very considerably improved the care and resources devoted to such elderly residents. I am sure that all hon. Members will welcome the additional resources—well above the level of inflation—that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Security announced yesterday for them.
    Mr. Canavan: To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 22 October.
    Mr. MacGregor: I have been asked to reply.
    I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Canavan: Will the Leader of the House now settle the dispute between the Secretary of State for Health, who told the House yesterday that it is illegal to charge national health patients for fertility treatment, and the Scottish Office Minister with responsibility for health, who claimed that it is perfectly legal? No matter who is right or wrong with regard to the legal technicalities, will the Government intervene now to ensure that such treatment is available free on the NHS?
    Mr. MacGregor: The position is absolutely clear. It is illegal for the NHS to charge NHS patients except in the limited respects allowed by statute. The NHS has, of course, never provided every service in every area. It is up

    795
    to local health authorities to decide local priorities—[HON. MEMBERS: "Ah!"] That has always been the case and it was the case under the previous Government. There is nothing. unusual about that. As I said to the hon. Member for
    796
    Cardiff, West (Mr. Morgan), if there are specific examples of NHS bodies overstepping the law, we shall investigate them

MV Antares
3.31 pm
Mr. Martin O'Neill (Clackmannan) (by private notice): To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement about the determination on the MV Antares.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence Procurement (Mr. Kenneth Carlisle): The sheriff principal of North Strathclyde published this morning his determination following the fatal accident inquiry that he conducted after the terrible accident on 22 November last year involving the fishing vessel Antares and the submarine HMS Trenchant, which was on a submarine commander's training course. We are now studying this very detailed determination.
The sheriff principal concludes that Antares sank as a direct result of HMS Trenchant snagging her fishing gear, and that this led to the tragic deaths of the four crew members of the Antares. This conclusion is similar to that of the Royal Navy's own board of inquiry. We have already expressed our very deep regret at this awful loss of life and I do so again. I understand what an irreplaceable loss this was to the families of the four men and indeed to the whole community of Carradale.
The sheriff principal concludes that the accident was caused by human error on board HMS Trenchant. The Royal Navy will consider whether disciplinary action is right once the Crown Office has decided whether to take any further action. The House will understand that I cannot comment further on this point.
We attach very high priority to the safety of fishing vessels in the vicinity of dived submarines and we recognise that fishermen are very anxious after the loss of the Antares. In the light of this tragic accident, we have already made a number of changes to training and procedures, showing our determination to ensure that submarine operations conducted in the Clyde are as safe as possible.
We are now giving urgent consideration to all the recommendations made in the sheriff principal's detailed report. His most urgent recommendation is that a 3,000 yd mandatory separation zone should be established around fishing vessels. I can tell the House that, in view of our wish to take every measure we can to improve the safety of shipping, we are with immediate effect increasing from 2,000 to 3,000 yd the distance by which dived submarines should be separated from vessels which are fishing—navigation and shipping constraints permitting. Instructions have already been sent out to this effect and will apply throughout United Kingdom waters. We shall consider the sheriff principal's other recommendations as quickly as we can.
I note that the sheriff principal commented that the need for submarines to train for their operational role is not in question. We must ensure that our submariners are properly trained to operate in coastal waters so that they can operate effectively in wartime. Those who serve in our submarines value good relations with the fishing community and share to the full our sense of grief at the loss in this tragic accident. We believe, however, that the needs of the Royal Navy and the interests of fishing communities can be accommodated, and we are determined to achieve this.
Mr. O'Neill: I thank the Minister for his statement. I join him in expressing the sympathy of the whole House for the bereaved families who, once again, have been brought face to face with the tragedy that confronted the community of Carradale.
Opposition Members recognise the importance of the training of submariners. They must live alongside fishermen who, with the greatest respect to the Royal Navy, have lived in the area a good deal longer than the Navy has. We recognise also that the timely response in extending the area from 2,000 to 3,000 yd will be welcomed and that it will assist in ensuring greater safety.
What steps is the Minister taking to ensure that the tactic, which is widely alleged by fishermen, of submariners using fishing craft as camouflage when they are diving does not happen again? In the light of the sheriff's statement and the statement of the Royal Navy board concerning the procedural and personal failings that took place, will he guarantee to take whatever disciplinary steps are felt appropriate by the Crown Office? Will the Minister take the necessary steps to ensure that the United States and Soviet navies, which also use those waters for whatever purposes, are made aware of the new regulations and of the need to ensure that the safety of our fishermen is just as important as the training of our submariners?
Mr. Carlisle: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his remarks. I am grateful also that he understands the importance of training. We recognise that we must do everything possible to give confidence to local fishing communities. I assure the hon. Gentleman that we do not use fishing boats for camouflage. One of the things that we have done since the accident is to get far better communications with the Clyde Fishermen's Association. It now has notification of our submarine movements. Our intention is to explore every avenue to improve those communications and relations.
I assure the hon. Gentleman that, if the decision of the Crown Office is not to take legal action, we will consider carefully what disciplinary action we have to take. We have to await the outcome of the Crown Office's consideration. I assure the hon. Gentleman that those measures will apply to all our submarines. We are determined that safety should be a priority in the Clyde area.
Mr. James Wallace: My hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Mrs. Michie) is ill today; otherwise, she would deal with this matter, which involves the loss of life of some of her constituents. I add my condolences to those that have already been expressed.
The advance notice that I now understand is in place for the Clyde Fishermen's Association is welcome, together with the Minister's statement that the zone is to be extended to 3,000 yd. Given that, last week, he was able to announce a significant reduction in low flying, will he undertake to consider whether there is an opportunity significantly to reduce the number of training exercises which need to be done, particularly in areas where there is considerable fishing activity?
Although human error has been identified in this case, much concern has been expressed in the House and outside, even before the loss of the Antares, that such events were happening. Trawlers were having their nets snagged by diving submarines. Will the Minister examine whether human error has been at fault and whether, in

799
part, that has been brought about by a system that leads to that human error—in fact, it is a system operated by the Ministry of Defence—rather than put the blame on one or two individuals?
Mr. Carlisle: The hon. Gentleman recognises that it is important to spread the training. One of the recommendations of the report is that we should look at relocating training to other coastal areas in the United Kingdom. We will obviously give that matter considerable thought.
In answer to the point about general safety and notification, we have sent a list of all our submarine movements to the fishermen. We talk to them carefully about what we are planning to do and shall see whether we can extend that practice even further.
Mr. Bill Walker: My hon. Friend will be aware that nothing that we say today can in any way reduce the pain and loss that the families concerned are experiencing or can bring back those men, so surely the important thing is to recognise that there are real lessons to be learned and that those lessons must be put into practice. The submariners and the fishermen recognise that they must live and work together in the same waters and, as the Clyde Fishermen's Association has clearly demonstrated, they ask simply for an arrangement that makes it safe for the fishermen to carry out their duties while the submarines are also safe, and allowed to do what they have to do if they are to be up to the job that is required of them in time of war.
Mr. Carlisle: My hon. Friend makes a good point. He might be interested to know that, in 1990, the Ministry of Defence started to produce a publication entitled "Fishing Vessel Avoidance: Flotilla Guidance" which is continually updated and seeks to instruct submariners about how to look out for fishing and other vessels. We shall continue to update it. As part of his training, each submariner now spends a day on a fishing vessel so that he can be fully up to date with fishing equipment and methods.
Mr. John McFall: The House should note that meaningful dialogue took place between the Clyde fishermen and the MOD only after that tragic accident. Given that the limit of 2,000 yd between submarines and fishing vessels was in force at the time of the accident, is the Minister aware that, after 2 am on 22 November, HMS Trenchant moved towards the fishing vessel, and that the fishing vessel had capsized before 2.18 am? Therefore, the accident happened despite that rule being in force.
What assurance, therefore, can the Minister give us now that the new procedures will stop what is commonly referred to in the Clyde as "snuggling up" by the submarines, so that their noises are obliterated by those of the fishing vessels? Does the Minister agree with the sheriff principal's report that submarine warfare training in the Clyde is incompatible with fishing activities?
Mr. Carlisle: Many of those matters were mentioned in the report. There is no question of submarines "snuggling up" to fishing vessels. There has always been a principle of separation and, as the hon. Gentleman knows, we have now extended that separation to 3,000 yd. That was a quick response to the report, which we were glad to make.
800
On the night of the incident, HMS Trenchant surfaced carefully and as quickly as she could. She spent two hours searching and then, having convinced herself of the position with all the details at her command, returned to her exercises. That matter is dealt with in the report. We must consider whether that was the right practice and how we can revise our operations should such an unfortunate occurrence happen again. Obviously, that matter is given detailed consideration in the report.
Mr. Alex Salmond: Does the Minister accept that a policy that allows submarine exercises in fishing waters is inherently dangerous, and that whatever the catalogue of human errors that were immediately responsible for the tragedy, that policy cost the lives of four fishermen? Why does the Minister seek to misrepresent the views of the sheriff principal who, far from conceding operational reasons for exercises in fishing waters, said exactly the opposite—that no evidence was led to justify that? Furthermore, will the Minister now institute an instant ban on submarine activity in Scotland's fishing waters?
Mr. Carlisle: Aspersions like that do no service to the seriousness of this matter. We must address these matters with the utmost care. The basic principle is that our submariners are highly skilled, dedicated people, who ply a difficult operation with considerable courage. If they are to be effective in war, it is essential that they can practise in coastal areas. As I have said, we try to give as much warning as possible to fishing vessels and to give them information about all our movements. As I have said, however, the important principle is that such training is absolutely essential if we are to have an effective submarine force.
Mr. Jonathan Sayeed: Is my hon. Friend aware how welcome it is to hear a Minister from the Ministry of Defence facing up to the responsibilities accepted by the MOD? As one who has been to sea in both conventional and nuclear vessels, I know how difficult it is, using even the most modern sonars, to note where nets are. Often those are large drift nets on fishing boats which are drifting. What is being done to investigate the use of sonar reflectors on such nets and other matters instituted by the MOD before the sheriff principal's report so that the possibility of such tragic accidents is reduced in future?
Mr. Carlisle: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his remarks. The House might be interested in two technical matters. First, the submarines have new VHF transceivers to improve the command and control arrangements. We are also making headway in the application of pingers to nets. We have drawn up technical specifications and distributed those to interested companies. We are now moving towards trials, details of which will be discussed with the Clyde Fishermen's Association. We hope to have a trial some time this winter.
Mr. George Foulkes: Will the Minister accept that the sheriff's main recommendation that the submarine exercises should be held in the vast areas of the sea in which fishing does not take place was suggested to the then Secretary of State for Defence, the right hon. Member for Ayr (Mr. Younger). more than two and a half years ago by some of my colleagues and myself? If it had been accepted then, the men crewing the Antares would be alive today.

801
Why can the hon. Gentleman not accept that recommendation now? In memory of the men who died on the Antares, will he call off the naval exercise scheduled for the Clyde next month, which is a replica of the exercise in which they died? Otherwise, it will be an insult to the memory of those brave men.
Mr. Carlisle: The sheriff principal fully accepted the need to train in coastal waters. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] He fully accepted that need. He knew that the Navy had to have that training. However, as I said, he has recommended that we should spread training more widely to other coastal areas, and we shall consider that carefully, together with our studies of the report.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I have to have regard to the subsequent business and this is an extension of Question Time. I shall take two more questions from each side of the House and then move on.
Mr. Peter Viggers: Taking up a point made by Opposition Members, does my hon. Friend agree that much defence work is inherently dangerous, which is why so much scrupulous care is put into the training and operation of submarines? Does my hon. Friend also agree that the submarine service believes that it can be justifiably proud of its safety record but will welcome the extension of the safety zone, which should make safety still greater?
Mr. Carlisle: The Royal Navy was as distressed as anyone else by the tragic accident to the Antares. The Royal Navy is determined that it should operate and train safely. Therefore, as I have said, following the tragic accident, we have introduced a range of measures which should make and are making training safer and, following the inquiry, we shall extend those measures. I can assure my hon. Friend, who represents a naval community with great care, that the Royal Navy wants to get it right and wishes to ensure that, in its vital training, an accident of this nature does not happen again.
Mr. Brian Wilson (Cunriinghame, North): Will the Minister accept the deep sense of hurt that there will be that again a Minister has come to the Dispatch Box who does not have a background in this incident and who has repeated many of the mistakes which were made by the then Ministers at the Dispatch Box in the days after the Antares incident?
Does the Minister realise that people in fishing communities around the country are certain that, if a blind bit of notice had been taken of the many similar incidents reported to the Ministry of Defence over the years, and if the Ministry had reacted sensitively and sensibly to those reports instead of arrogantly ignoring all the points put to it, the tragedy could not have happened?
In the light of that truly horrific background of neglect when matters had been brought to the Government's
802
attention, do the Secretary of State and the Minister not agree that it is now incumbent upon the Ministry of Defence to show some humility and to accept in full and without delay Sheriff Principal Hay's recommendations on the Clyde and to extend exactly the same principle to other coastal waters around Britain?
Mr. Carlisle: The hon. Gentleman has not been listening. I stated categorically the measures that we have taken since the tragic accident, and they are not insignificant. I have also announced an extension of the separation distance from 2,000 to 3,000 yd. We have had the report for only a day or two, and because of safety considerations, our action has been speedy. I do not accept what the hon. Gentleman says.
In addition, I have said that we shall study the report in great depth and introduce any further necessary measures.
Mr. Ian Bruce: My hon. Friend will know that there is a great deal of naval activity around my constituency, which emanates from the submarines which exercise from Portland. There is also a large fishing fleet. I hope that the Ministry will in no way look for scapegoats among the crew of the nuclear submarine. I had the privilege of seeing some of those very personnel in action, and I can vouch for their professionalism.
Perhaps we should devote the absolute maximum effort, as we did in the Gulf war, to finding a suitable way for submarines to detect nets, because there will always be problems where fisherman and submarines are together. Portland has a wonderful Admiralty research establishment, and I am sure that, if it were given the task of tackling that problem, it would do so with vigour.
Mr. Carlisle: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his tribute to the dedication of submariners. On the wider national scene, we consult the fishing industry safety committee, which has a national interest in this matter. We are also willing to talk to any other fishing association on our coasts. We want training to be as safe as possible. We value good relationships with fishing organisations and wish to ensure that both naval training and fishing can live in harmony.
Mr. Calum Macdonald: The Minister mentioned notification agreements. While the ideal solution is completely to separate submarine activity from fishing activity, would the Minister consider extending the existing notification arrangements beyond the Clyde area and the areas that are now covered to include all the fishing waters off the west coast? That should now be a matter of urgency.
Mr. Carlisle: Obviously, we will be happy to look at that matter and at any other issues that the hon. Gentleman, with his interest in this area, wishes to send to my Department.

Points of Order
3.53 pm
Several Hon. Members rose
Mr. Anthony Steen: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker: Is it to complain that I did not manage to call the hon. Gentleman?
Mr. Steen: No. I lost a fishing vessel off Dover and I want to put a question to the Minister. I cannot put a question down —
Mr. Speaker: Order. That would have widened questions on the statement, which is about the Antares report. This is an extension of Question Time, and with the best will in the world I am afraid that it is not possible to call every Member who wishes to ask a question outside the ambit of the statement.
Mr. Bob Cryer: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, about prorogation. I put down a number of written questions which have not been answered, except by way of the usual rubric from Ministers that "I will provide an answer at some time in the future." On prorogation, everything before the House, except statutory intruments, falls. May I have your assurance that you will deprecate the action of any Minister who seeks to avoid answering questions by failing to produce a written answer before the time of prorogation? I put down questions several days in advance of the written priority limit and, like other Members, I have been given holding answers and told that substantive answers will be given at some future stage. As we are close to prorogation, it is important that Standing Orders under which Ministers are required to answer are followed.
Mr. Speaker: The whole House knows that at prorogation everything falls. The hon. Member would have to table his questions again and then receive an answer to them.
Mr. Tim Devlin: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Would it be in order for me to breach the guidelines set out by the Serjeant at Arms for the use of the emblem and the stationery? As you know, I am anxious that Michael Bates, our excellent by-election candidate in Langbaurgh, should win the election. I would like to write to every one of my Conservative colleagues to ask them to come up to Langbaurgh to help, and also send them a letter which did not bear the imprint of the election agent, ensuring, of course, that the matter did not appear on the election expenses of our candidate,. That is exactly what the hon. Member for —
Mr. Speaker: Order. What is the point of order for me?
Mr. Devlin: The point of order for you is that, if the hon. Member for Tyne Bridge (Mr. Clelland), of whom I have given notice of this point of order, has already done that, would I be allowed to do the same and not be charged?
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member certainly would not. I was not aware of what he alleges against the other hon.
804
Member. He should let the Serjeant at Arms see that letter and allow him to deal with the matter, because the rules are plain.
Mr. David Winnick: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Have you received any indication from the Home Secretary that he intends to make a statement before the Session ends about the increase in the television licence fee? Are you aware that, if only a written answer is given, it will not be possible for us to make the point that, although the increase is undoubtedly good value for money—I have no quarrel about that—pensioners will have to pay the full increase out of the derisory increase that they will receive next year? Those of us who believe in a concessionary television licence fee for pensioners want to make that point. It will be unfortunate if the Home Secretary does not make an oral statement.
Mr. Speaker: I do not think that the Home Secretary will have a chance to make an oral statement about the matter in this Session. We shall have to see what happens in the next Session.
Mr. Dick Douglas: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Steen: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker: I say to the hon. Member for South Hams (Mr. Steen), with great kindness, that I cannot hear him on this matter. I cannot allow him to ask the Minister a question, but I will look kindly on an Adjournment debate in the next Session.
Mr. Steen rose—
Mr. Speaker: Could I be fairer than that?
Mr. Steen: You could not be fairer than that, Mr. Speaker, but I have an urgent matter which you have not given me the opportunity to raise. I would like an opportunity now to explain the position. If you will allow me that opportunity —
Mr. Speaker: Order. I have explained the position in terms of order, not in terms of the question that the hon. Member would like to ask.
Mr. Steen: I am most grateful for that opportunity. I have the second largest fishing community in the south-west. I also have large naval establishments in my constituency. In August, we lost a fishing vessel out to sea with the loss of all the crew. Yesterday, as a result of a parliamentary question, it was discovered that severe damage occurred to the hull of the vessel. This is the only opportunity that I have to raise in the House the possibility that the fishing vessel, the entire crew of which was lost, was hit by a naval vessel. This the first and only opportunity for me to ask that question.
How can I obtain from the Minister a survey of the area on 11 August to find out which naval vessel was in the area, whether it be a British, European or Soviet ship? Otherwise, the loss of the ship and its crew may never be explained. I need the opportunity to raise that point.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member could not have obtained that answer today. As the incident occurred on 11 August, the hon. Member should have given notice of a private notice question or raised the matter in some other

805
way last week when we first returned. That would have been his first opportunity to do so. I cannot allow him to do it now.
Mr. Steen: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker: No, I have had enough of that.
Mr. Douglas: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You will have observed that I did not rise during the Minister's statement, because I left it to hon. Members with a more direct interest in fishing matters. Is it in order for the Minister, perhaps inadvertently—I put it gently—to mislead the House by giving the impression that he has a detailed knowledge of the report by the sheriff and saying clearly to the House —
Mr. Speaker: Order. This is an extension of the private notice question.
Mr. Douglas: No.
Mr. Speaker: It is not a matter of order for me. The Minister must take responsibility for what he said.
Mr. Andrew MacKay: Further to the point of order raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton, South (Mr. Devlin), Mr. Speaker. You suggested that the hon. Member for Tyne Bridge (Mr. Clelland) might be in breach of House of Commons regulations. I assume that that refers to the advisory pamphlet with which we have all been issued by the Serjeant at Arms, about the use of the emblem on House of Commons stationery. It states:
"Original House stationery, which is provided at public expense, should not be used for the following purposes".
Point (d) mentions
"supporting the return of any person to public office".
I have in my possession a letter from the hon. Member for Tyne Bridge, which was referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton, South. The letter was clearly sent to all Labour Members, asking them to go to Langbaurgh for the by-election, and offering transport as well—presumably at public expense.
Mr. Speaker: Order. That is a repetition of what the hon. Member for Stockton, South (Mr. Devlin) has just said. I think that the matter should be drawn to the attention of the Serjeant at Arms.
Mr. Douglas rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. It is unfair on the whole House for the hon. Member for Dunfermline, West (Mr. Douglas) to try to raise a question now that he would have liked to raise if I had called him on the private notice question. He was not rising then —
Mr. Douglas: That is not the case.
Mr. Speaker: Well, what is the case, then?
Mr. Douglas: You are putting words into my mouth, Mr. Speaker. I am quite capable of misquoting myself.
Further to my point of order, Sir, I asked you whether you would allow the Minister to examine what he had said about the sheriffs report. The sheriff clearly suggested that submarines could exercise in other areas, far away from fishermen. That is not the impression that the Minister gave the House or the nation.
Mr. Speaker: That is not a matter for me. If we wish to prorogue, we really should get on. We have a rather busy day ahead of us.
Several Hon. Members rose
Mr. Speaker: I will take a point of order from the hon. Member for Spelthorne (Mr. Wilshire).
Mr. David Wilshire: Further to the point of order raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton, South (Mr. Devlin) —
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must draw the matter to the attention of the Serjeant at Arms; and, if necessary, it will then come to me, and I shall deal with it.
Mr. Wilshire: With respect, Mr. Speaker, how can you say that before you have heard whether I have a further point to raise?
Mr. Speaker: Because the hon. Gentleman specifically said, "Further to the point of order"—a point of order with which I have already dealt.
Mr. Wilshire: Indeed, Mr. Speaker; but it seems to me that, by the time that the matter has been drawn to the attention of the Serjeant at Arms, the by-election will already have taken place. Would it not be appropriate for you to draw it to the attention of the returning officer? That is where it matters now.
Mr. Speaker: I believe that the by-election will not take place for another two weeks. If the hon. Gentleman has any sense, he will see the Serjeant at Arms today.
Mr. Steen: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. A moment ago, you suggested that I should have tabled a private notice question. I strongly deny that. The information that I received was given last night, in a parliamentary answer, by the Minister of State, who said that considerable damage to the ship had been found on the ocean bed. This is the first opportunity that I have had to raise the matter, and that is why I wanted to raise it today.
Mr. Speaker: I thought that the hon. Gentleman said that the incident had taken place on 10 August; he can check the record. He should have tabled a private notice question today. I am not a mind reader, but, if the hon. Gentleman had done that, I should have been able to consider the matter.

Companies (Miscellaneous Provisions)
4.3 pm
Mr. Ian Taylor: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to give a company's directors standing authority to allot equity share capital to lending bankers to discharge indebtedness; to protect a lender in such circumstances from the shadow director provisions of company law and insolvency law; and for connected purposes.
There has been considerable controversy in recent months about the alleged behaviour of the banks in respect of the method of interest charging, and account charging, for individual and corporate borrowers. Indeed, I raised the matter myself in the House in a debate on the Finance Bill on 30 April 1991. Subsequently, the Government carried out an inquiry, and no direct allegations against the banks were upheld; nevertheless, there was considerable disquiet among many private and corporate borrowers.
It is true that many companies have been highly geared. It is justifiable to make criticisms of directors who have allowed their companies to borrow more than they should have done, in commercial terms. However, bankers were often not prudent in what they encouraged companies to borrow, often on terms that left the companies exposed when the recession came upon them.
Many directors of companies into which receivers have gone, at the instigation of the bank as secured creditor, have complained to me that by acting precipitately the bank lost any opportunity to enable the company to recover and therefore to provide the bank with the opportunity to recover the full value of its loans. In many cases, banks, having put in receivers, recovered less than they had originally expected to do through this secured charge.
Under this government, record numbers of new companies have been created in a climate attractive to entrepreneurs over the last 12 years as a whole. Net creation, as opposed to collapse, of companies is still positive. There are still more companies being created than there are going under. Yet, bearing in mind this background, total business failures, including receiverships, were up 71 per cent. to 33,532 in the first nine months of 1991, the largest increase in 11 years. The percentage of collapses to active companies as a ratio could rise to 2 per cent.
It is widely accepted that receiverships increase in number when a recession is ending, as banks begin to see hope that they can recover their loans against improving asset prices, rather than assuming that, if the company itself recovers its position, will also improve—which is the stance I should prefer them to take. Dun and Bradstreet has been quoted as saying:
"business failures continued to rise sharply for two years after the first signs of a recovery in 1981."
In those circumstances, the Opposition cannot say this time that this recession is continuing if the number of receiverships now paradoxically goes up.
To quote the late Sir Kenneth Cork on banks acting too quickly, he said not long ago that the banks should
"try to support their customers, to many of whom they lent too much money anyhow, through difficult times in the hope of saving the business. I get the impression they are not doing that and are pulling up the carpet much too quickly."
Banks seem still to prefer putting in a receiver to the more constructive procedure provided by the Insolvency Act
808
1986, which is to put in administrators. I am sad that the banks have not taken up the administration route, which is a much more constructive route, enabling there to be a package of measures that could rescue the core of the business.
The figures on administration are not very encouraging. Between January and March of this year, the last figures available to me, there were 64 administrative appointees in Great Britain. If we take the 12 months to March 1991, there were only 237 for the whole country. I am delighted that the Minister for Corporate Affairs is on the Treasury Bench. I know that he takes a particular interest in encouraging this modest version of what the Americans have in chapter 11, which enables the reconstruction of a company to take place in a protected atmosphere against creditors.
The Bill's proposals, which I believe are important, are several. They would provide directors with standing authority to allot equity for debt. Far-sighted boards have already obtained the permission of their shareholders to do that, but often it is not those companies that are in difficulties and under pressure, if times have become difficult. Any reconstruction will need subsequent shareholder approval because of the second company law directive, which has been on the statute book for a very long time. Yet at least in those circumstances shareholders can be offered some hope, whereas if they are merely told that the receiver has gone in, it implies that there will be little left for them, as ordinary shareholders. That is an important point. If banks consider, when they are completing their investigation of a company, that substituting that company's debt for equity is appropriate, there is a chance of rescuing the company and, in the long run, of benefiting the overall position of the bank.
By making the process more transparent, pressure could be brought on banks to consider equity swaps more favourably. That could be a particular factor during a period of administration. Banks should be encouraged to use the procedure for putting in an administrator rather than a receiver. That would enable a much more organised discussion to take place on the reorganisation of the company's balance sheet and prospects.
It is important that banks are seen to play a constructive part in any reorganisation, because many potential new equity investors would be reluctant to put new equity money into a company if it were used merely to bail out the banks' existing lending. Therefore, it is not credible to believe that new equity investors would invest in a company that would then repay its existing borrowing.
Equity injection, as an alternative, has other merits. Insolvency procedures are expensive and often badly reduce the value of the charge that the company has on fixed assets. As we all appreciate, insolvency proceedings are also expensive in human costs. If a receiver goes into a company, that has a dramatic impact on the employees and the owners.
My Bill would tighten the shadow director provisions, so that banks would have a clearer understanding of the risks that they take during a reorganisation. That is important, because in many cases banks have said to me that they perceive that the risks of becoming involved in a debt equity swap are too great because of the risk of being deemed to be shadow directors. It is theoretically possible in law for a bank to be regarded as a shadow director. If

809
it is involved in the potential of taking equity in a company, it is much more concerned that that might actually happen.
Under section 251 of the Insolvency Act 1986, a shadow director is defined as
"a person in accordance with whose directions or instructions the directors of the company are accustomed to act".
In normal circumstances, a bank providing advice to a company would merely be regarded as providing advice on a professional basis. In the event of a reconstruction, where the bank is intimately involved in the running of the company as well as the reorganisation of its affairs, it is possible for it to be thought that the bank is actually running the company. If that were to be the case, the bank would feel extremely exposed unless the laws on shadow directorships were clarified in respect of bankers. That is what I want. I want greater clarity in the laws as they would apply if a bank were actively to consider taking what would inevitably be a substantial equity stake in a company as an alternative to putting that company into receivership.
It must be realised that the shadow director provisions under the Companies Acts and the Insolvency Acts are severe. Although I do not in any way wish to give banks permission to indulge in wrongful trading—to use a definition in the 1986 Act—I want further clarification to limit the liabilities that would be faced by banks in the event that a reconstruction properly entered into nevertheless ultimately failed.
Although an equity for debt swap would affect a bank's capital ratios, the Bank of England must already be taking a close interest in the provisions that banks now have on the loans outstanding to companies. The National Westminster bank made recent provisions of £902 million for bad debts to United Kingdom private and corporate
810
customers. Therefore, receiverships can be a double blow for banks—not only do they lose value in terms of their loans to companies, but they lose value if the owner-shareholders are put into personal financial difficulty.
Although the banks should not emulate the German banks, serious considerations are involved. The object of the Bill is to put pressure on the banks to consider debt equity swaps, to encourage directors to negotiate these with banks, to promote the use of administration, and to give reasonable comfort to bankers that they will not automatically run foul of the tough shadow director provisions.
We have a climate that is favourable to companies and we want to avoid the direction and regulation that another Labour Government would introduce. We all have an interest in ensuring that banks fulfil their responsibilities to companies.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Ian Taylor, Mr. Tim Smith, Mr. John Watts, Mr. Colin Shepherd, Mr. Charles Wardle, Mr. James Paice, Mr. Keith Mans, Mr. Simon Burns, Mr. Barry Fields, Mr. Robert G. Hughes, Mr. John Bowis and Mr. Terry Dicks.

COMPANIES (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS)
Mr. Ian Taylor accordingly presented a Bill to give a company's directors standing authority to allot equity share capital to lending bankers to discharge indebtedness; to protect a lender in such circumstances from the shadow director provisions of company law and insolvency law; and for connected purposes: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Friday 25 October and to be printed. [Bill 220.]
Orders of the Day
  Export and Investment Guarantees Bill
  Lords amendments considered.
  Export and Investment Guarantees Bill
    Clause 11

      REINSURANCE OF ECGD RISKS
      Lords amendment: No. 1, in page 7, line 14, at end insert—
      ("(1A) The Secretary of State shall from time to time determine, in relation to such classes of risk determined by him as might be insured by him under section 1 of this Act, whether it is expedient in the national interest for him to exercise his powers under that section to make arrangements for reinsuring persons providing insurance for risks of that class.")
      Read a Second time.
      4.15 pm
      Ms. Joyce Quin: I beg to move amendment (c) to the Lords amendment, in line 7, at end add—
      'In the exercise of this power the Secretary of State shall be guided by the duty imposed on him under the old law of encouraging British exports'.
      Amendment (c) is important because at issue is the extent to which the Government will be obliged to take into account the need to promote and encourage British exports when considering whether to provide reinsurance facilities. The 1978 law used the expression "encouraging British exports". The Opposition believe that that commitment should be at the forefront of the Secretary of State's mind when he decides to what extent reinsurance should be provided.
      Amendment (c) would strengthen the hand of a future Secretary of State, especially if other Departments, such as the Treasury, which has a reputation for cost-cutting in export promotion, take a negative view of the reinsurance facility. The amendment would allow the Secretary of State to tell the rest of the Government and the Treasury that he is obliged to encourage British exports. It repeats an obligation under the old law, which operated satisfactorily until the Government decided to repeal it with this ill-thought-out Bill.
      The encouragement of exports is vital. Unfortunately, under the Bill, the service to British exporters—a service that is inferior to that enjoyed by our competitors—is likely to suffer. The Government's purpose is simply to cut costs and to reduce the extent of services that are available to exporters.
      I imagine that the Minister will say that we should be well aware from previous debates, especially the debate on clause I, that the word "encouraging" was felt to be more restrictive than facilitative. However, I do not believe that that argument applies to this amendment.
      This part of the Bill deals with the reinsurance facility. We say that, whenever the Government decide to provide top-up or national interest reinsurance, they should be motivated by the consideration of encouraging exports. We therefore believe that the Minister's objection to the word "exports" does not hold good.
      Amendment (c) would retain the spirit of the old law, which exporters believe served them well, and by accepting it the Government would send exporters a welcome signal
      812
      at a particularly difficult time for them. We have been made aware today of the extent of the Confederation of British Industry's criticisms of the Government's industrial and manufacturing policy, and it is true that manufacturing industry relies particularly on the services of the Export Credits Guarantee Department. If the Government accept our modest amendment, it would at least give some reassurance to industry that some of their difficulties are being taken into account.
      This month's trade statistics, which were issued today, show that there is an alarming manufacturing deficit. The manufacturing companies that use the ECGD's services see the ECGD as an important weapon to reduce that trade deficit, but they are worried that, under present proposals, it will not be available to the same extent as it was in the past.
      Amendment (c) would give exporters the impression that we will be active in some of the new markets in which we need to be involved, especially those of eastern Europe and the Soviet Union. Exporters have repeatedly given me the impression that British industry is falling behind because it is not getting the Government support that is available to many of our competitors. They have been worried about the lack of ECGD cover for the Soviet Union and the countries of eastern Europe. If amendment (c) is accepted, exporters will be encouraged by the thought that some of the difficulties under which they have been labouring in trying to export to those new markets will perhaps be overcome.
      Amendment (c) would send out the right message to those many exporters who fear that, if the Bill is passed in its present form, we will be at a disadvantage compared with our major competitors, especially in the European Community. Widespread concern was expressed in the other place about the lack of a level playing field in terms of export support and promotion.
      When the Government introduced the Bill in the other place, only the Minister spoke in favour—all other speakers on the Government and Opposition sides expressed either reservations or outright hostility. They included various captains of industry, two former Cabinet Ministers and two former Trade Ministers who had had specific responsibility for export credit, including the previous Minister for Trade, Lord Trefgarne, the predecessor of the hon. Member for Hove (Mr. Sainsbury). That shows the extent of the concern.
      Last week, Lord Trefgarne said in the other place that he was worried that our exporters using the services of the preferred purchaser, the Dutch company NCM, would be at a disadvantage compared with Dutch exporters using the same service. Lord Trefgarne was perturbed at the fact that, throughout the discussions last week and this week in the other place, he did not obtain a satisfactory answer from the Government spokesman. That shows how worried people are about whether this part of the Bill will provide for comparable services for exporters throughout the European Community. The Opposition will continue to monitor events closely in the coming months, because we want to ensure that our exporters who use the services of the new purchaser of the ECGD will have available to them the same services as are available to Dutch competitors and exporters in other parts of the European Community.
      If amendment (c) is accepted, exporters will be reassured about the way in which the Government will operate this reinsurance facility. That facility has two

      813
      parts, one of which is the top-up facility. The Government hope—they have not yet provided any proof—that within three years that facility can be taken over entirely by the private sector.
      Although there is no time scale in the Bill, I understand that the Government are sticking to their foolish belief that somehow, by magic, the private sector can absorb the reinsurance facility within three years. There is much concern that the Government are proposing to apply arbitrary limits to the amount of reinsurance under the top-up scheme over the next three years, and that is also something to which I should like the Minister to respond.
      Exporters are worried that the Government's policy will effectively cap the amount of top-up support provided in the next three years, and that the amount of support will progressively be reduced. The Government still insist that, at the end of three years, they expect that facility to be taken over by the private sector, no matter what the economic circumstances, the trade deficit and the position of our major exporters may be at that time. I should like the Minister to comment on that.
      We are also worried about the Government's intention about the national interest reinsurance facility to which the clause refers. We want to know how the Government propose to define that facility—how widely or how narrowly.
      Many exporters are rightly worried that there are many markets for which they will be unable to obtain such support in future. That fear was expressed well in another place and has also been expressed to me only this week by many exporters and exporting associations. The Minister has a duty to them and to us to say how he proposes to operate the national interest reinsurance facility in the future. Will it be operated in a way that encourages British exporters or will cost be the only consideration?
      The Bill contains no timetable for either the top-up scheme or for the national interest reinsurance provision. Therefore, there is no guarantee that they may not cease after the three years, which, I understand, is still the Government's policy on the top-up facility.
      I hope that I have outlined some of our main concerns and those of the exporting community. Our point of view has been widely supported in industry, and if the Minister cannot give us the necessary reassurance and is unwilling to accept the amendments, industry's concerns about the legislation will continue in the weeks and months ahead. The amendment would partially rectify our worries about the measure, and would go some way to allaying exporters' fears. We hope that the Government are willing to accept it.
      The Minister for Trade (Mr. Tim Sainsbury): I fear that the hon. Member for Gateshead, East (Ms. Quin) will he disappointed, because I cannot recommend the amendment to the House. Indeed, I shall go further and say that it would be unhelpful, not only in terms of this excellent Bill but to Britain's exporters.
      One reason for opposing the amendment is factual. There is no duty in the Bill—nor was there in the Act that the Bill replaces—for the Secretary of State to encourage trade. There is no duty—I stress that word, which is the word used in the amendment.
      In the Bill and in the Act, the Secretary of State is given permissive powers to encourage trade and to facilitate supplies. There would be serious doubts about how to determine in legal terms whether a duty to encourage had
      814
      been discharged, and I foresee great problems in the courts if that issue were to be brought before them. So, the first but substantial reason for rejecting the amendment is that, under both pieces of legislation, the Secretary of State is given only permissive powers.
      The hon. Lady reminded us that we debated the issue at some length not only in Committee, but on Report. The matter also came up in another place. On each occasion, we pointed out that the word "encourage" was open to some challenge and threw doubt on what the total powers were. It seems logical to say that one cannot encourage something that has already happened. One can make it easier for it to take place. One can facilitate an export by providing all sorts of things, such as transport and insurance, but one can scarcely encourage it if it has already taken place.
      The old words of "encouraging exports" were less helpful to British exporters than the new formula that we have used, which refers to "facilitating the supply". The new formula allows the ECGD to give assistance where it is currently statutorily debarred from doing so.
      4.30 pm
      The same objection, which we went through in Committee and in another place, holds in the context of reinsurance. Reinsurance is not there as an end in itself; it is there to facilitate exports. One may try to encourage exports, but how does one encourage something that has already happened? It is clear that the word "facilitating", which we have used, is a far better word. Unlike the hon. Lady, we do not want to restrict the help that the ECGD can give British exporters. It would be extremely difficult to determine whether it was practical to have a duty to "encourage".
      I want to confirm that the competitive position of British exporters is one of many aspects that the Government will take into account when determining the national interest case for providing reinsurance. Trade and diplomatic aspects need to be considered as well. ECGD's primary objective will remain helping British exporters by giving export credit and investment insurance. I hope that that is apparent from everything that we have said about this excellent Bill throughout the proceedings.
      Mr. Peter Thurnham: Is my hon. Friend aware of a major exporter in my constituency, Beloit Walmsley, which has a large inquiry from Iran and is interested in having ECGD cover for Iran? Can he say anything that would be helpful at this stage? The inquiry is at an advanced point commercially. The firm has been told by the Iranians that it is the best bidder, subject to clearing up the question of ECGD cover.
      Mr. Sainsbury: I am well aware of the case to which my hon. Friend refers and of the energetic steps that he has taken to help his constituency company to obtain what would be a valuable order. I am sure that he is also aware of the particular difficulties associated with that market. I remind him that ECGD cover for short-term credit is available for exports to Iran. Medium-term cover is under review. The review is taking account of significant export opportunities such as the one to which my hon. Friend referred. The review also needs to take account of political developments, some of which have been helpful recently.
      I cannot tell my hon. Friend when the review will be completed or what the outcome will be, but I can tell him that I am reasonably optimistic that we shall reach a

      815
      conclusion in the very near future. I will bear in mind what my hon. Friend has said about the export opportunity for the company in his constituency.
      I am sure that the House will recall that lengthy debates took place in Committee and on Report about the provision of reinsurance support by the Government for the new company after privatisation. On Report, the House decided not to agree to certain amendments, partly on the ground that they gave rise to significant legal and technical difficulties.
      The debate continued in another place, and the issues arose again. In response to the further debate and to the suggestions put forward, parliamentary draftsmen were able to draw up new amendments which meet the concerns expressed in both Houses while avoiding the legal and technical difficulties inherent in the previous amendments that we rejected and which were tabled in another place.
      Lords amendment No. 1 imposes a permanent—I stress "permanent"—obligation on the Secretary of State to determine from time to time whether a national interest case exists for him to use his general enabling powers under clause 1 to provide reinsurance to insurers who provide direct insurance for the same classes of risk as those in respect of which the Secretary of State himself might otherwise directly provide under the provisions of clause 1.
      The new obligation that the amendment would introduce into the Bill is widely drawn and therefore relates to all types of reinsurance, including reinsurance of the kind to be provided under the so-called transitional top-up national interest facilities to which the hon. Member for Gateshead referred and which the Government are committed to providing to the privatised insurance services group. The amendment imposes no restriction on who may be the recipient of the reinsurance.
      The amendment reflects the desire expressed in both Houses for the ministerial assurances given at various stages to be reflected in the Bill, while at the same time avoiding the pitfall that had arisen in the context of other similar amendments considered in both Houses.
      Ms. Quin: Will the Minister confirm that he intends to phase out the top-up facility after three years, and will he respond to my question whether there will be a reducing element in the amount of support in the top-up facility over the three-year period?
      Mr. Sainsbury: I had intended to come to that point later, but perhaps I may do so now.
      The hon. Lady refers to the top-up facility, which, as she knows, has been debated at some considerable length. Since the announcement in 1989 of the decision to privatise the insurance services part of ECGD, there has been continual work on the issue of reinsurance, because we recognise that it is an important part of the total package. The Government have recognised throughout that, at the outset, there might be a small shortfall—I emphasise "small"—between the company's full requirements for reinsurance and what the market could provide.
      That was foreshadowed in the statement made on 18 December 1989 by my right hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley), then Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. My right hon. Friend announced the Government's decision on privatization
      816
      and referred to the need for a continuing reinsurance link between the ECGD and the privatised insurance services. We said that that top-up reinsurance facility would exist for three years, and it would be looked at in the light of requirements and in the light of the take-up in the market.
      We have discussed the issue on a number of occasions, and I have been able to assure the House and the hon. Member for Gateshead that the market's response to the request for reinsurance has been positive. That is a tribute not only to the capacity of the market but to the ability of the ECGD and its advisers to obtain reinsurance.
      The second type of reinsurance —
      Ms. Quin: Before the Minister deals with the second type of reinsurance, will he say clearly what I think he was saying—that the top-up facility can continue beyond three years?
      Mr. Sainsbury: I was saying that the top-up facility was due to continue for up to three years, in the light of the requirements—in the light of the gap between what the market provides and what the company needs. As I have just said, the market has shown a great willingness to take the reinsurance requirement, and that is why we are confident that, within that period, there will no longer be a need.
      The second type of reinsurance relates to the high-risk —
      Mr. Michael Morris: I understand the market to be helpful at the moment, but none of us can forecast what the market will be in a year or 18 months. Will my hon. Friend therefore clarify two points—first, that the sum is not a capped sum, and, secondly, whether the requirement is that it "shall" be phased out within three years or that it "may" be phased out within three years?
      Mr. Sainsbury: I have given a commitment several times that the requirement would be met for up to three years. At the moment, the expectation is that it will not even be needed for all that time, because of the market's response. While I appreciate what my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton, South (Mr. Morris) says about not being entirely certain about markets, there is a fair predictability about the behaviour of markets and reinsurance markets to a portfolio risk which does not differ greatly in its overall make-up or size. The reaction of many experts confirms that, as the market becomes more familiar with the quality of portfolio risks presented to it, the spread of risks and the quality of management of the insurance services group, so it will be more ready to absorb the cover that is required.
      Even before the company exists—and given that element of uncertainty—it is remarkable that the market has shown itself willing to undertake to provide so much reinsurance that there is only a very small gap between what the market is prepared to take and the total requirement.
      There is no time limit on the other form of reinsurance, which is now called the national interest reinsurance facility. There may be some confusion here. When I refer to the ECGD in this context, I mean the continuing ECGD —that part of the ECGD that exists at the moment and which will continue in existence as part of the

      817
      Government. The ECGD will provide 100 per cent. reinsurance to the new company on the small handful of higher risk countries. That facility will not be time-limited.
      In order to meet concerns expressed by hon. Members that the facility might be withdrawn prematurely, I assured the House that the requirement for the facility would be kept under close review, and that it was the Government's intention that, subject to it performing satisfactorily as an ECGD trading facility, it would continue for as long as the Government considered it essential to meet the reasonable needs of exporters. Lords amendment No. I deals with that point.
      Lords amendment No. 1 also imposes a permanent obligation on the Secretary of State to determine from time to time whether a national interest case exists for him to use his general enabling powers under clause 1 to provide reinsurance to insurers. As that is permanent, the reinsurance arrangements that we have announced will ensure that, in the aftermath of privatisation, there is no sudden or sharp reduction in the level of facilities available to our exporters.
      Lords amendment No. 1 will ensure that the need for that kind of reinsurance will be kept under permanent review. The amendment makes even better what was already an excellent Bill. It will ensure that our exporters, as the first beneficiaries of the privatisation, will receive a service from the new company and from the continuing ECGD which will be better matched to their immediate and future needs and better placed to meet the challenges and opportunities of exporting in the single European market and throughout the 1990s. I commend the Lords amendment to the House and urge it to reject the imperfectly drafted, but I believe well intentioned, amendment to it, tabled by the hon. Member for Gateshead, East.
      4.45 pm
      Mr. George Howarth: I support the amendment to the Lords amendment and I want to participate in the debate because a company called Cross Europe in my constituency has a problem. Cross Europe is part of an American-based multinational company called Cross and Trecker. Having seen what has happened at Cross Europe and having listened to the Minister today, I believe that the Government stand accused of stunning complacency. When exporters around the country face terrific difficulties with the schemes, to claim that everything in the garden is rosy and is getting better does not reflect the experience of Cross Europe. I have seen press reports which confirm that that company's experiences are not unique.
      I will give the facts about. Cross Europe because I am sure that that will prove the case for the amendment to the Lords amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead, East (Ms. Quin). Cross Europe won an order in the summer of 1990 to supply equipment for differential case and axle tubes—in effect, machine tools —for the new Moskawitch engine programme to be supplied by a company called Ishevsk. Cross Europe won that contract in the face of extremely effective competition from Germany and Italy and it obtained a very successful £5 million order.
      There was subsequently some discussion about the method of payment for the scheme. Between August and
      818
      December, the contract was negotiated and submitted to Midland Montagu and ECGD for inclusion under line of credit and approval respectively.
      Therefore, the method of payment had been agreed in December. The company planned the order into its work programme, and the negotiated contract was signed on 19 December 1990. In January 1991, after the company had geared up for the order, it was told that there was to be a review of the ECGD coverage with the USSR in general and that special contracts, Cross Europe's included, were to be pulled out for special treatment.
      Between January and February, there were frequent contacts between Midland Montagu and ECGD, and Cross Europe and ECGD. The company was told that the issue would be resolved by March 1991, but it was not. In May 1991, Cross Europe contacted me. The company was anxious not to create any publicity. It simply wanted to unsnarl the red tape and get on with the order which, by that time, it was manufacturing.
      I wrote to the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry on 31 May 1991. I will not quote the whole of that letter, but two paragraphs are important. In one, I wrote:
      "As I understand it, Ricardo, based in Brighton and Lamb, based in Mildenhall, have subsequently taken steps to fulfil their contracts through sister companies in Canada and Germany, since they were able to get the necessary export guarantee schemes there. However, Cross Europe have actually already started work on the project within the UK and, therefore, are seriously exposed if they are not allowed the necessary export guarantee cover in the very near future."
      In the other paragraph, I wrote:
      "Since all of the original five companies"—
      the companies that were caught up in the review—
      "have taken their business elsewhere and I have no knowledge of the other two, it is quite possible that Cross Europe are the only company remaining with this difficulty. In any event, even if the other two are still in the same situation, allowing for both of them having contracts to the value of say £10 million each, the amount of risk to which ECGD will be exposed would in terms of its total operations be very small indeed."
      On 28 June, the Minister for Trade was kind enough to reply to my letter. The final paragraph of his letter reveals all about the Government's attitude to these problems. He wrote:
      "I regret" —
      we have all heard those words before —
      "that I cannot say how long the review will take or pre-judge its outcome. I can assure you, however, that we will complete it as soon as we reasonably can. I shall ensure that you are informed of the decision. In the meantime, I would suggest that the company contact David Wyatt (Head of ECGD's East European Projects Branch"—
      it gives the telephone number —
      "in order to keep abreast of developments."
      I have heard no more. Cross Europe is certainly in weekly contact and sometimes more than weekly contact with ECGD, as was suggested by the Minister, but the Minister appears to have washed his hands of the matter —so much so that, in September of this year, Mr. Normal J. Ryker, the vice-chairman and chief executive officer of Cross and Trecker Corporation, wrote to the Prime Minister. As far as I know, there has been no response to the letter.
      If I may read just one paragraph of Mr. Ryker's letter to the Prime Minister, it will even further illuminate the House in respect of the inactivity of that Government Department in its dealings with exports. Mr. Ryker says:
      "The machine tool industry in general and our UK Subsidiary has suffered through a depression for an extended period of time and the financial position of the UK branch

      819
      would deteriorate substantially with far reaching consequences both for our British workers and in other areas of the company if the delay would continue beyond the aforementioned shipment date. The machinery in question is specially designed for the customer and cannot be utilised for other customers and only a small percentage of material would be available for salvage."
      Therefore, £5 million-worth of equipment, which was built by the company in good faith on the basis of an order and understandings with the Midland bank and unaware that a review was about to take place, is standing crated up on the shop floor of Cross Europe in my constituency, and the Minister sits on the Government Front Bench as though there is nothing wrong with the export credits guarantee scheme. He sits there with smug complacency, pretending that there is no problem.
      I followed up that letter by writing to the Prime Minister on 10 October. I still have not had a reply from the Prime Minister. I have long since given up any belief that any contact that I could possibly have with the Department of Trade and Industry, which seems to be almost detached from exports and encouraging industry, would produce anything. The company has made that decision and it is dealing directly with the Prime Minister, who himself does not seem able to reply to that letter. I have even taken to writing directly to the Prime Minister.
      That £5 million of equipment was made in good faith, is now ready to be exported, and awaits the necessary agreement from the ECGD and the intervention of the Government for which Mr. Ryker asks. I should imagine that Mr. Ryker is no great supporter of the Labour party, as he is a serious American industrialist. He and his managers in my constituency say that that inactivity does not happen in Germany, France, or the United States, but it is happening in this country. The bottom line is that nearly 200 jobs in my constituency are now at risk because of that inactivity. That company was opened in Knowsley in 1970, interestingly enough by Lord Wilson of Rievaulx, who was then the constituency Member. That company may end up closing down because the Government have left it financially exposed.
      When I became involved in May last year, the company had already been told that the review would be completed in March of that year. That date had passed. We still have not had a decision from the Government's review of the Export Credits Guarantee Department and its dealings with the Soviet Union. How much longer is that inactivity and complacency to continue? We are supposed to be an exporting nation. Why are we constantly losing manufacturing capacity? It is because of the incompetence and bungling of the Government in export orders and manufacturing. Let us support the amendment and let us start encouraging exports, which is what the amendment would do.
      Mr. Sainsbury: With the leave of the House. I am sure that the whole House sympathises with the position in which Cross Europe finds itself, but I hope that nobody sympathises with the synthetic indignation and allegations of the hon. Member for Knowsley, North (Mr. Howarth). I should have thought that even those who do not make a great habit of reading the newspapers or even of watching television would have noticed that there are problems connected with the Soviet Union for which any exporter and any export credit agency must have regard.
      Mr. Howarth: I conceded precisely that point in a letter to the Secretary of State, to which the Minister of State replied, and I also conceded it in a recent letter to the Prime Minister. Everybody worldwide recognises the serious problem. France, Germany and the United States are still successfully trading and guaranteeing trade with eastern Europe and the Soviet Union. Why cannot we do the same?
      Mr. Sainsbury: I can appreciate that perhaps the hon. Gentleman does not understand the nature of export credit insurance. Export credit insurance for short terms has been available for the USSR, and it is available not only for the USSR but for all the countries of central Europe. The hon. Member for Gateshead, East (Ms. Quin) spoke as though it was not so available. That is an important point. Medium-term cover is available for Hungary and Czechoslovakia.
      We are talking about the Export Credits Guarantee Department; it has nothing to do with privatisation, and nor has the case to which the hon. Member for Knowsley, North referred. The hon. Gentleman is seeking medium-term cover which would be provided by the continuing ECGD—still a Government Department. We are not concerned with privatisation.
      If the hon. Lady is suggesting that that Department should provide cover, regardless of the risk, regardless of its exposure in a particular market, and regardless of political developments—I do not know whether the hon. Member for Knowsley, North has noticed that there is a continuing difficulty in the Soviet Union—I am not surprised that the review of the wisdom of continuing cover is still continuing, because —
      Ms. Quin rose—
      Mr. George Howarth rose—
      Mr. Sainsbury: I shall not give way again to the hon. Member for Knowsley, North. The hon. Member for Gateshead, East wants to intervene. I shall let the hon. Lady have her chance first.
      There is continuing economic uncertainty in what I think I must refer to as the former Soviet Union, and particularly as regards the economic arrangements between the central authority, the former Soviet Union authority, and individual republics.
      Ms. Quin: Does the Minister agree that it is absurd that we did more trade with the old Soviet regime than we are doing with the new, reforming Soviet regime? Will he confirm that we have effectively been off medium-term cover for the Soviet Union for more than a year and that that differentiates us from most other developed countries?
      Mr. Sainsbury: The hon. Lady will find that nearly every country is now off medium-term cover for the Soviet Union in view of the disturbed state of the economy and the lack of clarity of the economic arrangements, for instance, between the Ukraine republic, the Russian republic and the central authority. That must be reflected in the ECGD's decisions on cover. I stress that short-term cover has been available and is still available to all the countries of central Europe.
      The hon. Member for Knowsley, North suggested that we were saying that everything in the garden was lovely, and then went on to suggest that, quite to the contrary, everything was a total disaster. Such allegations come

      821
      frequently not only from the Opposition Front Bench but from all parts of the Opposition—for example, that Britain's manufacturing is a total disaster and is doing very badly.
      That is more than surprising when we consider the facts. In August of this year, output was 17 per cent. higher than the average level for 1980, export volume was up by two thirds, and productivity was 60 per cent. higher. The most recent figures, which were announced this day, show that manufacturing exports, a matter about which the Opposition are expressing much concern, in the last quarter are 7·5 per cent. up on the same period last year.
      I congratulate British manufacturing exporters on that achievement, because they have succeeded in increasing exports by that significant amount against a background of difficult world trading conditions. Instead of knocking our exporters and our manufacturing, the Opposition should recognise and praise achievements. I am sorry about Cross Europe, but I hope that even the hon. Member for Knowsley, North will understand that it is because the situation in the Soviet Union is so uncertain that we have to keep our medium-term credit provisions under review.
      5 pm
      Mr. Rhodri Morgan: We are now considering the last Act of the overspill period of the fourth year of this Parliament, so I should like to take the opportunity of telling the Minister how frustrating he is to deal with. He is frustrating for us as an Opposition and exceedingly frustrating for those in British industry. He has done nothing more this afternoon than to repeat his performances in Committee when, every day, he wrote a PhD in hair-splitting and nit-picking. Even today, he has managed to send to sleep the hon. Member for Windsor and Maidenhead (Sir A. Glyn), who is notorious throughout the House for the attention that he gives to such matters.
      Mr. George Howarth: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for allowing me to intervene briefly, because the Minister would not do so. As I want to raise a point that he did not answer, perhaps my hon. Friend could press it for me. Cross Europe signed an agreement to provide the Soviet Union with equipment in December 1990. The ECGD review, with which Cross Europe is now caught up, did not start until January 1991. That is an important point, which has not been answered.
      Mr. Morgan: I cannot do better than say that I am sure that Cross Europe's frustrations when dealing with the Government's lack of support for industry and its exports to critical markets is repeated across the country. That experience is not restricted to that one outstanding machine tool company in my hon. Friend's constituency. There are hundreds of similar examples. Indeed, much of what the Prime Minister was talking about at the G7 meeting—about increasing exports to the Soviet Union, providing it with model farms, model food distribution systems and even food this winter—may be vitiated by the DTI's lack of action and decision making.
      The hon. Member for Hove (Mr. Sainsbury) is one of the Ministers who is responsible for not doing anything. The DTI has not been able to decide how much backing British industry needs in those critical markets. He was unable to answer his hon. Friend the Member for Bolton,
      822
      North-East (Mr. Thurnham) who asked him about the Beloit Walmsley's proposed paper mill contract with Iran. We have not had any decisions or replies except for: "We are carrying out a review. Hang on, we'll come to a decision in perhaps a month or two and we hope that the contract will still be available then."
      That is a classic example of what is wrong with the DTI's non-involvement in the process of providing support for British exports, and that is what has made this such a depressing Bill for the Opposition as well as for British industry. We have had to become the defenders of British industry's interests in this House, because Ministers—
      Mr. Sainsbury rose—
      Mr. Morgan: I see that I have stung even the Minister into action, and he stirs up apathy wherever he goes. I shall be glad to hear his intervention.
      Mr. Sainsbury: Although we are used to quite a lot of inaccuracy from the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. Morgan)—we became very familiar with it in Committee —his suggestion that the DTI is not helping exporters deserves some rebuttal. About 2,000 people worldwide in 150 overseas posts, plus those at our regional offices and headquarters, work exclusively to help our exporters. Many others, including the Prime Minister and the heads of our Missions, spend a lot of time helping them. I wish that the hon. Gentleman would recognise that and pay tribute to the success of our exporters.
      Mr. Morgan: Speaking as a former DTI civil servant, I can well appreciate that people who are trying to do a good job to support British exports actually do so, despite an extraordinary lack of ministerial involvement. Ministers need not listen to me on this point, and I do not ask them to accept my word for it—they will never accept that I am an objective guide. All they need do is read the headline on page 1 of today's Financial Times and consider what the Confederation of British Industry has said. Now that I have found my spectacles, I shall read the direct quote to the Minister. Speaking on behalf of the CBI working party on manufacturing industry, Sir Colin Chandler, the managing director of Vickers, said:
      "We need a powerful voice sitting around the cabinet table speaking up for industry."
      Is that supposed to be a vote of confidence in the current regime at the DTI from Britain's major exporters as represented on the CBI's three-person working party by the heads of Vickers, Vauxhall Motors and British Aerospace? Only rarely at the end of a Session have British industry's large-scale exporters and those at the cutting edge of technology expressed such a lack of confidence in the DTI. That does not happen at the end of every Parliament, but it has been happening regularly during the past six months. When presenting their annual reports, the chairmen of our large firms have begun to express a degree of disillusionment with this Government. That happened with British Aerospace and Pilkington, and it has now happened with the CBI working party that represents the other heavyweights.
      When the other place discussed the amendments, the Government were isolated. They did not have a single friend. That is why we have taken great pleasure in attempting to fortify the Lords amendments by tabling our amendments which seek to take the process a little further than the Government were willing to do when they were

      823
      finally forced to table amendments to try to reconcile the views of the two Houses, and that is why we are discussing these provisions now. We are trying to ascertain how we can carry the process forward. The Government tried simply to buy off the opposition in the other House. We know that the Government are trying to climb down, so we are seeking to give effect to what the other House would have liked to do. We want to express our firm commitment to and to encourage our British exporters.
      One senior captain of British industry, who would be most embarrassed if I were to name him, attended a recent private meeting with Labour Members at which he said, "What the present Government do not understand is the difference between support for British industry and intervention on behalf of British industry." British industry needs support, but it is not getting it. It does not want to return to old-fashioned interventionism, but it does want the same degree of support that is given to French and German industry by their Governments and to Japanese industry by its Ministry of International Trade and Industry. British industry has been left with a lot of half-baked Thatcherite claptrap at the Department of Trade and Industry, and we have seen more of it this afternoon.
      Although I am pleased to be speaking as the House considers the final Act of this Session, I speak also with some regret, because I have a strong constituency interest in the Bill. More than 700 people work for the ECGD in Cardiff. Most of them will find that their work is to be privatised, although some will remain civil servants and will work in a sort of halfway house, continuing to provide a service for the ECGD which itself will be privatised and given into the ownership of NCM, the Dutch exporting insurance combine, which appears to be the favoured tenderer for taking over most of the ECGD's Cardiff operations.
      We are not happy about that, but I am sure that the Secretary of State for Wales will claim it as a major success for his drive to bring foreign investment into Wales. The simple fact is that no British companies were interested in taking over the ECGD's insurance services group, and when some foreign bidders dropped out, the only realistic bid remaining was from NCM. It is a highly professional organisation, but I do not know whether it is the best organisation to handle the reinsurance of Britain's exports. We must bear in mind the fact that we are talking about the United Kingdom's national interest, not the Dutch national interest.
      The Government's hypocrisy goes even further. I should like to draw the House's attention to what the Secretary of State said in his much-praised speech to the Conservative party conference. I must admit to enjoying reading it. The Financial Times of 11 October reported:
      "Stating an intention to 'intervene for British industry abroad' Mr. Lilley nonetheless said he did not believe in intervening at home."
      Which category does export credits reinsurance fall into? Is that intervening for British industry abroad, in which the Secretary of State does believe, or is it intervening in British industry at home? The constituents of my hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley, North (Mr. Howarth) might have a word or two to say about that.
      824
      The Secretary of State's speech was much praised. I am told that it was praised because it contained self-deprecating jokes or, to paraphrase Churchill on Attlee, because he is a self-deprecating little man with much to be self-deprecating about.
      The CBI report shows how extraordinarily remote the Government have become from what used to be thought their natural constituency in industry. It is their natural constituency no more.
      That is why we shall press the amendment to a vote this afternoon. We must ensure that British exports are encouraged. The Minister has made an extraordinarily nit-picking attempt to counter that argument today, repeating more than half a dozen times what he said in Committee. The Minister's claims will have no effect at all in the face of the way in which British industry will view the Bill without our fortifying amendments.
      I hope that I can persuade the Government to add this amendment to the climb-downs from original Thatcherism that we have already seen with the poll tax and, more lately, with the Secretary of State for Health's opposition to tax relief on private health insurance for the over-60s. Let the Government make that three by accepting this amendment, so that the message can go out to British industry that the Government have at last started to see the light, that non-intervention does not always work and that they should be doing for British industry what the German, Japanese and French Governments do for their industry.
      Question put, That the amendment to the Lords amendment be made:—
      The House divided; Ayes 173, Noes 202.

      Division No. 233]

      [5.11 pm

      AYES

      Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley, N.)

      Darling, Alistair

      Allen, Graham

      Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

      Alton, David

      Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)

      Archer, Rt Hon Peter

      Dixon, Don

      Armstrong, Hilary

      Dobson, Frank

      Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy

      Dunwoody, Hon Mrs Gwyneth

      Ashley, Rt Hon Jack

      Eadie, Alexander

      Ashton, Joe

      Eastham, Ken

      Banks, Tony (Newham NW)

      Evans, John (St Helens N)

      Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE)

      Ewing, Harry (Falkirk E)

      Battle, John

      Fearn, Ronald

      Bellotti, David

      Field, Frank (Birkenhead)

      Benn, Rt Hon Tony

      Fisher, Mark

      Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish)

      Flannery, Martin

      Benton, Joseph

      Flynn, Paul

      Blair, Tony

      Foot, Rt Hon Michael

      Bray, Dr Jeremy

      Foster, Derek

      Brown, Gordon (D'mline E)

      Fraser, John

      Brown, Ron (Edinburgh Leith)

      Fyfe, Maria

      Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)

      Garrett, John (Norwich South)

      Caborn, Richard

      Garrett, Ted (Wallsend)

      Callaghan, Jim

      Golding, Mrs Llin

      Campbell, Ron (Blyth Valley)

      Gordon, Mildred

      Campbell-Savours, D. N.

      Gould, Bryan

      Canavan, Dennis

      Graham, Thomas

      Clark, Dr David (S Shields)

      Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

      Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)

      Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

      Clelland, David

      Hain, Peter

      Clwyd, Mrs Ann

      Hardy, Peter

      Cohen, Harry

      Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

      Cook, Robin (Livingston)

      Haynes, Frank

      Corbett, Robin

      Henderson, Doug

      Cousins, Jim

      Hinchliffe, David

      Crowther, Stan

      Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)

      Cryer, Bob

      Home Robertson, John

      Cummings, John

      Howarth, George (Knowsley N)

      Cunliffe, Lawrence

      Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath)

      Cunningham, Dr John

      Hoyle, Doug

      825

      Hughes, John (Coventry NE)

      Pendry, Tom

      Hughes, Roy (Newport E)

      Pike, Peter L.

      Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

      Powell, Ray (Ogmore)

      Ingram, Adam

      Prescott, John

      Janner, Greville

      Primarolo, Dawn

      Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)

      Quin, Ms Joyce

      Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

      Radice, Giles

      Kennedy, Charles

      Randall, Stuart

      Kilfoyle, Peter

      Redmond, Martin

      Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil

      Reid, Dr John

      Kirkwood, Archy

      Richardson, Jo

      Leadbitter, Ted

      Robertson, George

      Leighton, Ron

      Rogers, Allan

      Lewis, Terry

      Rooker, Jeff

      Litherland, Robert

      Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

      Livingstone, Ken

      Rowlands, Ted

      Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)

      Ruddock, Joan

      Lofthouse, Geoffrey

      Salmond, Alex

      Loyden, Eddie

      Sheerman, Barry

      McAllion, John

      Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

      McCartney, Ian

      Shore, Rt Hon Peter

      Macdonald, Calum A.

      Short, Clare

      McFall, John

      Skinner, Dennis

      McKay, Allen (Barnsley West)

      Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)

      McKelvey, William

      Smith, C. (Isl'ton & F'bury)

      McLeish, Henry

      Smith, J. P. (Vale of Glam)

      McMaster, Gordon

      Snape, Peter

      McNamara, Kevin

      Steinberg, Gerry

      McWilliam, John

      Stott, Roger

      Madden, Max

      Strang, Gavin

      Mahon, Mrs Alice

      Straw, Jack

      Marek, Dr John

      Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)

      Marshall, David (Shettleston)

      Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)

      Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

      Vaz, Keith

      Martin, Michael J. (Springburn)

      Wallace, James

      Martlew, Eric

      Walley, Joan

      Meacher, Michael

      Wardell, Gareth (Gower)

      Meale, Alan

      Wareing, Robert N.

      Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)

      Watson, Mike (Glasgow, C)

      Morgan, Rhodri

      Welsh, Michael (Doncaster N)

      Morley, Elliot

      Williams, Rt Hon Alan

      Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)

      Williams, Alan W. (Carm'then)

      Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

      Winnick, David

      Mullin, Chris

      Worthington, Tony

      Murphy, Paul

      Wray, Jimmy

      Nellist, Dave

      Young, David (Bolton SE)

      O'Brien, William

      O'Hara, Edward

      Tellers for the Ayes:

      O'Neill, Martin

      Mr. Eric Illsley and

      Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

      Mr. Thomas McAvoy.

      Patchett, Terry

      NOES

      Adley, Robert

      Buck, Sir Antony

      Alison, Rt Hon Michael

      Burt, Alistair

      Allason, Rupert

      Butler, Chris

      Arbuthnot, James

      Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

      Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

      Carrington, Matthew

      Ashby, David

      Carttiss, Michael

      Aspinwall, Jack

      Cash, William

      Atkins, Robert

      Chalker, Rt Hon Mrs Lynda

      Atkinson, David

      Channon, Rt Hon Paul

      Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N)

      Clark, Rt Hon Sir William

      Barnes, Mrs Rosie (Greenwich)

      Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe)

      Beaumont-Dark, Anthony

      Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest)

      Bellingham, Henry

      Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

      Bendall, Vivian

      Couchman, James

      Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke)

      Currie, Mrs Edwina

      Bevan, David Gilroy

      Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g)

      Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

      Davis, David (Boothferry)

      Boswell, Tim

      Day, Stephen

      Bottomley, Peter

      Dickens, Geoffrey

      Bottomley, Mrs Virginia

      Dicks, Terry

      Bowden, A. (Brighton K'pto'n)

      Dorrell, Stephen

      Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich)

      Dover, Den

      Bowis, John

      Durant, Sir Anthony

      Brazier, Julian

      Eggar, Tim

      Bright, Graham

      Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd)

      Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's)

      Farr, Sir John

      Bruce, Ian (Dorset South)

      Fenner, Dame Peggy

      826

      Finsberg, Sir Geoffrey

      Morrison, Rt Hon Sir Peter

      Fishburn, John Dudley

      Moss, Malcolm

      Fookes, Dame Janet

      Moynihan, Hon Colin

      Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman

      Neale, Sir Gerrard

      Fox, Sir Marcus

      Nelson, Anthony

      Franks, Cecil

      Neubert, Sir Michael

      French, Douglas

      Newton, Rt Hon Tony

      Fry, Peter

      Nicholls, Patrick

      Gale, Roger

      Nicholson, David (Taunton)

      Gardiner, Sir George

      Onslow, Rt Hon Cranley

      Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian

      Oppenheim, Phillip

      Glyn, Dr Sir Alan

      Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

      Goodlad, Alastair

      Page, Richard

      Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

      Paice, James

      Gorman, Mrs Teresa

      Pawsey, James

      Gorst, John

      Porter, David (Waveney)

      Grant, Sir Anthony (CambsSW)

      Price, Sir David

      Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)

      Raffan, Keith

      Greenway, John (Ryedale)

      Raison, Rt Hon Sir Timothy

      Gregory, Conal

      Renton, Rt Hon Tim

      Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)

      Rhodes James, Sir Robert

      Grist, Ian

      Riddick, Graham

      Grylls, Michael

      Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas

      Hannam, John

      Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn

      Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn)

      Rossi, Sir Hugh

      Harris, David

      Ryder, Rt Hon Richard

      Hayhoe, Rt Hon Sir Barney

      Sackville, Hon Tom

      Hayward, Robert

      Sainsbury, Hon Tim

      Heathcoat-Amory, David

      Sayeed, Jonathan

      Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.

      Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas

      Hill, James

      Shaw, David (Dover)

      Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)

      Shelton, Sir William

      Hordern, Sir Peter

      Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW)

      Howard, Rt Hon Michael

      Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)

      Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A)

      Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)

      Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd)

      Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)

      Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)

      Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)

      Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W)

      Speller, Tony

      Hunt, Rt Hon David

      Spicer, Sir Jim (Dorset W)

      Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)

      Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)

      Hunter, Andrew

      Squire, Robin

      Irvine, Michael

      Steen, Anthony

      Jack, Michael

      Stevens, Lewis

      Jackson, Robert

      Stewart, Allan (Eastwood)

      Janman, Tim

      Stewart, Andy (Sherwood)

      Jessel, Toby

      Stewart, Rt Hon Sir Ian

      Jopling, Rt Hon Michael

      Sumberg, David

      Key, Robert

      Summerson, Hugo

      King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield)

      Taylor, Ian (Esher)

      King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)

      Taylor, John M (Solihull)

      Kirkhope, Timothy

      Taylor, Sir Teddy

      Knight, Greg (Derby North)

      Temple-Morris, Peter

      Lawrence, Ivan

      Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)

      Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh)

      Thorne, Neil

      Lester, Jim (Broxtowe)

      Townend, John (Bridlington)

      Lightbown, David

      Tracey, Richard

      Lloyd, Sir Ian (Havant)

      Twinn, Dr Ian

      Lord, Michael

      Viggers, Peter

      MacGregor, Rt Hon John

      Walden, George

      MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire)

      Walker, Bill (T'side North)

      Maclean, David

      Waller, Gary

      McNair-Wilson, Sir Michael

      Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)

      Mans, Keith

      Warren, Kenneth

      Marland, Paul

      Wells, Bowen

      Mates, Michael

      Wheeler, Sir John

      Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

      Widdecombe, Ann

      Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick

      Wilkinson, John

      Miller, Sir Hal

      Wilshire, David

      Mills, Iain

      Winterton, Mrs Ann

      Miscampbell, Norman

      Wood, Timothy

      Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)

      Woodcock, Dr. Mike

      Moate, Roger

      Young, Sir George (Acton)

      Molyneaux, Rt Hon James

      Montgomery, Sir Fergus

      Tellers for the Noes:

      Morris, M (N'hampton S)

      Mr. Sydney Chapman and

      Morrison, Sir Charles

      Mr. Irvine Patnick.

      Question accordingly negatived.
      Lords amendment agreed to.
      Mr. Terry Lewis: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. You will recall that there has been some controversy in the last day or two over an invitation by the North-West regional health authority to Conservative Members to briefings on how to minimise political damage in the marginal constituencies in the north-west. It has been said that Labour Members from the north-west were also invited. The chief executive of the North-west regional health authority said on the radio at 5 o'clock that north-west Labour Members of Parliament have not responded to letters. That is a downright outrageous lie.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker): Order. That has nothing to do with me.
      Mr. Lewis: I wonder whether the Minister—
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. It has nothing at all to do with me.
      Mr. Tony Lloyd: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: I hope that it is.
      Mr. Lloyd: It is, and it is directed at you. In matters of parliamentary privilege, where, for example, the authority of Parliament, its Ministers and through them the civil service are being used in a partial manner with respect to some hon. Members —Conservative Members vis-a-vis Labour Members—have you the power to demand that a Minister comes to the House to explain why his civil servants and appointees have behaved in a cavalier political fashion?
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: The well established procedure for dealing with matters of privilege is triggered by writing to Mr. Speaker.

    Clause 13

      THE EXPORT CREDITS GUARANTEE DEPARTMENT AND THE EXPORT GUARANTEES ADVISORY COUNCIL
      Lords amendment: No. 2, in page 7, line 40, at end insert—
      ("(4) In exercising his duty under section 11(1A) of this Act, the Secretary of State shall consult the Export Guarantees Advisory Council.")
      Read a Second time.
      Ms. Quin: I beg to move amendment (e) to the Lords amendment, in line 4, at end add
      'and shall be obliged to consult the Council in the exercise of his duty under that subsection if so requested by the Council'.
      The amendment strengthens the Lords amendment and places on the Secretary of State an obligation to consult the Export Guarantees Advisory Council if the council so requests. That is in addition to the Secretary of State's obligation under the Lords amendment.
      Our amendment would allow the Export Guarantees Advisory Council to institute consultation rather than simply waiting for the Secretary of State to begin consultation with the council. We tabled the amendment because we felt that exporters might be worried that their views would be ignored by the Government.
      There have been plenty of examples during the passage of the Bill and in recent industrial and economic legislation of exporters being ignored. Our amendment strengthens
      828
      the Lords amendment. We feel that it is useful because the Export Guarantees Advisory Council may well wish the Secretary of State to look again at certain moments at the extent of reinsurance that the Government are willing to provide. Our amendment would enable such consultation to take place at a time deemed appropriate by the council and not only at the moment judged appropriate by the Secretary of State.
      5.30 pm
      We should have liked to widen the Lords amendment to include consultation with representatives of the British exporting community, including organisations such as the British Exporters Association, the Institute of Export and so on. But unfortunately, that is not possible under the terms of the Lords amendment, which refers specifically to the Export Guarantees Advisory Council.
      Perhaps the Minister would be good enough to comment on whether he envisages a formal consultation process with exporters in general and with their representative trade associations. In other words, in exercising his authority under this part of the Bill, does the Minister feel that it would be advisable to consult not only the EGAC but as wide a range as possible of representatives from the exporting and industrial community?
      The reason why we are so keen to strengthen the role of the Export Guarantees Advisory Council is that there is a great need for a watchdog role in this privatisation. In other privatisations, some sort of watchdog authority has been set up, even though its powers may have been disappointing to many of us who believe in strong regulation in the public and the consumers' interest.
      However, the Bill creates what amounts to a private monopoly. We are used to the Government privatising and creating private monopolies. Some sort of regulatory function needs to be strengthened in this privatisation so that exporters and exporting companies, the consumers of the privatised company's services, have an opportunity fully to express their view, especially on the role of the Secretary of State in providing a reinsurance facility to the newly privatised ECGD.
      I stress that the Government are effectively creating a private monopoly. The Minister may say that other export credit insurers may well provide services to the British exporting community. Those exporters include exporting outfits in other European countries which may come to Britain and try to gain business. But perhaps the Minister is not aware of the difficulties that one such company, Hermes, the German export credit insurer, has had in the British market. Those difficulties reinforce our view that the Government have created a private monopoly which other companies will find difficult to challenge.
      I have in front of me a letter that Hermes sent to various people involved in exporting in Britain. It explains that, over several months, Hermes was interested in offering credit insurance to the United Kingdom market, but that, unfortunately, the enormous increase in the number of insolvencies in our economy in recent months meant that it was simply not viable to operate in Britain as it had hopes to do.
      In the letter, Hermes refers to
      "the adverse economical situation of a vast variety of United Kingdom companies".
      That has forced it to examine its current policy portfolio as well as its underwriting practices. That makes it clear

      829
      that, while in theory there may be competitors for NCM —the new privatised company to which the Government have sold part of the ECGD—in practice, especially in the current economic climate, it is unlikely that there will be much in the way of competition. Therefore, the Government have effectively created a private monopoly.
      For that reason, our amendment, which strengthens the role of the Export Guarantees Advisory Council, is important, because it will provide the only watchdog element in the process which could stand up for the customers of this new private monopoly. We are understandably attached to the ideas behind amendment (e) and we hope that the Government will look sympathetically on them.
      We are also worried about what may happen if the new company which takes over the ECGD finds itself in financial difficulties or is tempted to sell out to some other purchaser after a certain period. In such circumstances, it is important that the EGAC should have a watchdog role and that it should be able to oblige the Government to consult it, in addition to responding to the Secretary of State's invitation to meet him to discuss the export situation. It is vital for the EGAC to be fully involved in the process.
      The amendment will also provide one way of overcoming the rather secretive approach of the Department of Trade and Industry to many export insurance activities. If the advisory council is involved, at least that will open out beyond the DTI and via the council into the wider exporting community the debate on how far to provide reinsurance.
      Amendment (e) is modest in the sense that, although it strengthens what the Government propose, it still refers merely to consultation. Obviously, that still does not tie a Secretary of State down, but at least it would mean that those who will he considerably affected by the Secretary of State's exercise of this power will have the chance to make their feelings known. That is why we feel that the amendment is important. We hope that the Government will look sympathetically on it.
      Mr. Sainsbury: The hon. Lady said that we were creating a private monopoly. I hope that she listened carefully enough during our earlier proceedings to recognise that the Insurance Services Group of ECGD, which is being privatised, is not a monopoly now and certainly will not be after privatisation. It is the general expectation of exporters that the level of competition in the market is likely to increase after 1992.
      Interestingly, the hon. Lady referred to the letter from Hermes. The difficulties which that insurance provider has experienced in the British market are solely connected with domestic business and are not connected with export credit insurance. As the hon. Lady knows, the new company will be able to offer insurance in domestic sales after privatisation and therefore will provide a still better service to British exporters. ISG is not a monopoly now and certainly will not be after privatisation. The general expectation is that there will be increased competition. Competition will come not only from other insurers but through exporters using other methods such as forfaiting.
      The hon. Lady referred to her amendment to Lords amendment No. 2 as modest. I find it not so much modest as puzzling. Perhaps I can best demonstrate my
      830
      puzzlement by reading to the House the text of the Bill as it would appear if we accepted the Opposition amendment as well as the Lords amendment. It would read:
      "In exercising his duty under section 11(2) of this Act, the Secretary of State shall consult the Export Guarantees Advisory Council and shall be obliged to consult the council in the exercise of his duty under that subsection, if so requested by the council."
      I do not understand how he shall be required to consult the EGAC and then be obliged also to consult it if he is requested to do so by the council.
      The amendment seems not so much modest as unnecessary. For that reason, amendment (e), which the hon. Lady said was modest and a strengthening of the Lords amendment—I take that to mean that she approves of Lords amendment No. 2—would not have any such effect. Indeed, it would have no consequence at all. The advisory council need not be asked for consultation, because the amendment already says:
      "the Secretary of State shall consult".
      I therefore feel that amendment (e) is redundant.
      As for Lords amendment No. 2, I commend it to the House.
      Like Lords amendment No. I, the amendment is related to the question of the reinsurance support that will be available from the ECGD after the privatisation of the Insurance Services Group. It forms part of the response that we gave to the desire expressed in both Houses for the Government's commitment on the reinsurance to appear on the face of the Bill. It also reflects the call for the Government to consult widely when conducting any future review of that support. We have undertaken to consult exporters generally about matters affecting them.
      Lords amendment No. 2 is extremely straightforward. It simply requires the Secretary of State, when fulfilling his duty under new clause 11(1)(a) to determine the national interest case for providing reinsurance—which we have just discussed—to consult the advisory council. Although the amendment imposes a separate obligation on the Secretary of State, it is inextricably linked with the obligation imposed by new clause 11(1)(a) and is not entirely free-standing.
      The purpose of the amendment is to ensure that, before reaching a conclusion on the need for ECGD reinsurance, the Secretary of State will have had the benefit of advice from the highly respected advisory council. The council's advice is an important resource, which we must use wisely. We must not overlook the fact that membership is honorary and that all the council's members have heavy responsibilities to discharge in industry and the City. We must avoid overburdening them. The Bill places no constraint on the demand for their time; indeed, it introduces some new calls that might be made on that time.
      In practice, the ECGD will call on the council's services when it can be expected to make the most helpful contribution, while avoiding converting the council into a kind of supervisory board—let alone the watchdog suggested by the hon. Member for Gateshead, East (Ms. Quin). I am happy to commend that arrangement to the House. I feel that the requirement for the Secretary of State to consult a valuable body of advisers will strengthen the Bill, and will make it even more helpful to the interests of British exporters.
      Ms. Quin: I have listened carefully to what the Minister has said. Although we approve of Lords amendment

      831
      No. 2, which is an improvement on the previous wording in the Bill, I do not agree with the Minister that our amendment is redundant. We believe that it strengthens the text of the Lords amendment: it gives the advisory council an opportunity to oblige the Secretary of State to consult it at a stage that it—the council—considers appropriate.
      It is really a question of timing. It is possible that the council will have been consulted by the Secretary of State about the provision of reinsurance in certain circumstances, but that the council itself will then deem that those circumstances have changed, and will wish to make further official representations to the Minister. Our amendment would give the council that statutory right; the Lords amendment does not.
      We are convinced that our amendment strengthens the existing wording of the Bill. Given the need to make progress, however, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
      Amendment to the Lords amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
      5.45 pm
      Mr. Morgan: I beg to move amendment (f) to the Lords amendment, in line 4, at end add
      'particularly with regard to the principles in accordance with which the Secretary of State shall determine whether any reinsurance may be provided under that section'.
      I am sorry that, for various reasons, some of my hon. Friends who—along with me—tabled the amendment are not present.
      The problem with Lords amendment No. 2 is that there is still an element of "We shall consult if we feel like it." The guiding principle is that the Secretary of State will consult, but only if he considers it right to do so. There is no provision for the advisory council to express dissatisfaction formally with the way in which things are going.
      Clause 13(2) states:
      "There shall continue to be an Export Guarantees Advisory Council."
      That is a good guarantee, but subsection (3) goes on:
      "The function of the Council shall be to give advice to the Secretary of State, at his request".
      If the Secretary of State does not request that advice, the council cannot give it.
      That is not a very good recipe for any kind of exercise of independence or incisiveness by the council. It will not work if matters on the trade front continue to deteriorate, and the level playing field that British exporters are always asking for seems to be tilted further and further away from them because of Government timidity, inactivity and inertia—and all the other qualities that the CBI has cited to describe the Government's approach to long-term support for manufacturing industry. The front pages of today's Times and Financial Times highlight what has been said in a document that is bound to feature extensively for the next six months, or longer, in the run-up to the people's final verdict on 12 disastrous years of the Government's stewardship—if it can be called that—of trade and industry.
      We want to get away from the "when I feel like it" approach that the Secretary of State is reserving for himself. He is setting up a body that is supposed to act as a sounding board, providing a second opinion and guidance from those in the appropriate field to prevent
      832
      him from becoming even more isolated than he is now from the people on the chalk face of exporting. That body, however, cannot move unless he allows it to do so. He can say, "Well, chaps"—and perhaps there will be a statutory lady—"how do you think I am doing? Is it going OK?" If the members of the council reply, "It is not going too badly, Minister; perhaps you should ask us again next year", that will be the way in which matters will continue.
      If, however, the council's members feel that he is going seriously wrong, rumours will reach the Secretary of State, who will say, "I will make absolutely sure that I do not ask them. If I do not ask them, they cannot tell me, and then no adverse report will be made." There will then be no possibility of the matter coming before the House, and no possibility that hon. Members will be told that the advisory council is not at all happy with the way in which the Secretary of State is handling his responsibilities for the provision of reinsurance for the new company.
      Our amendment would ensure that the Secretary of State was required to consult the advisory council about the criteria that will determine whether Government reinsurance for the privatised ISG—reinsurance of a top-up, "national interest" variety—is to continue, or whether it should be eased off gradually. In the latter event, it must be established whether it is being eased off in a way that disadvantages those involved in exporting, in export finance or in export insurance.
      Without the amendment, the Government will determine their criteria without the possibility of challenge, unless they choose benevolently to submit themselves to possible criticism from the council. That is not good enough, simply because the Government have been unwilling to lay out the criteria for top-up insurance. They have therefore earned considerable mistrust, as is evident from today's CBI report.
      A two-way relationship is needed, with the Secretary of State being able to consult the advisory council and the advisory council being able to consult the Secretary of State. It must not be a one-way street, for that would confirm all the worst aspects of the deterioration in relationships between the DTI and trade and industry. We want to make sure that the advisory council can come back at the Government if it thinks that things are going the wrong way. The Government will then have to respond constructively to the council's criticisms and will be able to steer the DTI back on to the right course so that industry does not feel that it has been let down. It has been let down in the past and it is being let down at present. It may be let down in the future by the DTI without our amendment. That would be insupportable, if we are to recover our position as a major trading nation.
      Mr. Sainsbury: As we heard to our delight on many occasions during the Committee proceedings on the Bill, the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. Morgan) has once again been carried away by the exuberance of his own verbosity. I fear that he was carried so far away that he forgot what it was that he was putting to the House by way of an amendment.
      The hon. Gentleman said that consultation was a two-way street. My impression—I suspect that it is widely supported in the House—is that the Secretary of State is responsible for his decisions and is answerable to the House for them. I do not therefore see how the Export Guarantees Advisory Council could consult the Secretary of State. It is not the responsible body. As I explained

      833
      when we discussed the previous amendment, its role is to give advice from its great knowledge and background experience of exporting to the Secretary of State, who is the person with the responsibility, who has to take the decisions and who is answerable to the House.
      Mr. Morgan: The point that I made was that, without our amendment, it will be a one-way street. The Secretary of State needs to consult the council only when he feels like it. That is hardly a healthy relationship. There is no possibility of the council approaching the Secretary of State and saying, "We wish to be consulted, because things are going wrong and we want you to put them right."
      As the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry will seek to avoid embarrassment when things are going wrong, he will avoid consulting the council. The council will then have to remain silent. The council will be of no value, except when things are going well, when it does not need to be consulted. What is the Minister's answer?
      Mr. Sainsbury: I was pointing out that it is the Secretary of State who has responsibility and who is answerable to the House. The hon. Gentleman's amendment refers to consultation
      "particularly with regard to the principles in accordance with which the Secretary of State shall determine whether any reinsurance may be provided under that section."
      We are discussing a Lords amendment—with which the hon. Member for Gateshead, East (Ms. Quin) says the Opposition agree—which places an obligation on the Secretary of State to consult the Export Guarantees Advisory Council. He will consult, when appropriate, on a broad range of issues. I have no doubt that the council will make the Secretary of State aware of its views on any matter of which it believes he ought to be aware. Moreover, the council consists of individuals with considerable experience of industry, banking, financial services and exporting. As people in senior positions, they will have other opportunities to make their views known, perhaps through other organisations.
      834
      We shall continue, as we do now, to consult widely and to listen carefully to the views of industry, in particular to the views of exporters. It is not practicable for the Secretary of State to be asked to delegate to another organisation the determination of the principles on which he will base his decisions. He will have to take into account a wide range of issues. The role of the advisory council is, as it has always been, to assist the Secretary of State by bringing its financial and commercial knowledge to bear upon the ECGD's business.
      The hon. Gentleman referred to setting up a body. I remind him that the Export Guarantees Advisory Council has been in existence for a long time. Its members have always been appointed from industry and financial services. As I said before, we do not want to overburden them. They will be consulted, as required by the previous amendment. They will have every opportunity to put forward their views on all relevant issues. Their advice will continue to be of value to the Secretary of State.
      The Secretary of State will continue, as he does now, to support the work of British exporters, not only in the ways to which I have referred but through the continuing work of the Export Credits Guarantee Department. In addition to the 2,000 staff to whom I have referred, he will have the services of all the excellent and experienced staff of that department. British exporters will continue to have the services of the ECGD, and also the services provided by a privatised Insurance Services Group, based in Cardiff, which is known for its expertise and skill and for the excellent service that it now provides for British exporters. As the hon. Gentleman well knows, as a result of privatisation it will be able to provide a still better and a more flexible and responsive service to help British exporters to continue to achieve the excellent results that they have already achieved, as announced today, but which seldom, if ever, are praised from the Opposition Front Bench.
      Amendment to the Lords amendment negatived.
      Lords amendment agreed to.

      Manchester Airport
      Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Goodlad.]
      5.57 pm
      Sir Fergus Montgomery: It is a refreshing change for an Adjournment debate to be held as early as this. Whenever I have had an Adjournment debate in the past, it has been in the early hours of the morning.
      The subject that I want to raise is the second runway at Manchester airport which is causing great concern in my constituency. Ever since I was elected as Member of Parliament for Altrincham and Sale I have supported Manchester airport, for a variety of reasons. It is of great value to the north-west region. The airport is also the largest single employer in my constituency. If anything drastic were to happen at the airport and employment there were to drop, it would have a devastating effect on my constituents.
      In particular, I have supported over the years more scheduled international flights. I could never understand why passengers from the north of England had to take the shuttle down to London and change aeroplanes in order to get to their final destination. I have always felt that, as long as airlines were prepared to fly passengers direct, and provided that there was sufficient demand, this was nonsense. I encouraged more scheduled flights because they fly during the day at more civilised times, unlike charter flights, which often take place during the night and cause residents in the area to complain.
      Recently, the airport published its development strategy to the year 2005. To say that that has caused a stir in the area around the airport would be a classic understatement. It has caused a great deal of concern.
      Protest groups have been formed, protest meetings have taken place and countless letters of protest have been written. People have written to me blaming not only the Government, but the Conservative party, for the problems. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will disabuse them of that false notion. The airport is controlled not by the Government, but by a board that consists of three professionals, nine councillors from Manchester city council, and one councillor from each of the nine district councils that made up the former Greater Manchester council. Of all those councillors, only one is a Conservative.
      I regret the personal attacks that have been made on the airport's chief executive, Mr. Gil Thompson. He does not make the decisions; as chief executive he carries out the decisions made by the board. People have a right to put their case fairly and squarely, but to descend to personal abuse is unforgivable.
      The development strategy to the year 2005 proposes the construction of a second runway by 1998. Three options have been suggested. Some people suggest that the reason for there being three options is to cause dissent in the area and to pit one group against another. That is not true. Three options were suggested because this is a consultative period and the board feels that it must put forward options that it thinks might be viable. I am most concerned about option 2—the option that is causing the greatest anxiety in my area —because the runway would be sited close to a built-up area.
      Mr. Alfred Morris: As the hon. Gentleman knows, Manchester airport is in my constituency. Over the years, he and I have participated in debates about the future of the airport. As he said, this is a consultation period, and it will last for some time yet. It is essential that all points of view are fully stated and considered. It may not be decided to proceed with any of the options, but if it is decided to proceed with any one of them, there will have to be a planning application and a public inquiry. We must make it clear to people that we are at the very beginning of a long consultation period.
      As I am sure the hon. Gentleman knows, there is a great deal of concern about the threat of privatisation of the airport. It is felt that if that were to happen, environmental factors would go through the window and the airport could be controlled from Tokyo, Wall street or the City of London, and that local influence and authority would disappear. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman appreciates that concern.
      Sir Fergus Montgomery: I agree with the first part of the right hon. Gentleman's remarks, but if I had known that he intended to talk about privatisation, I might not have given way to him.
      The airport tries to maintain a good neighbour policy, and any complaints that I have taken to it on behalf of constituents have been sympathetically treated. The airport operates a series of policies in an effort to help those who are adversely affected. It has a noise insulation grant scheme, it imposes fines on noisy aircraft, it has installed equipment to monitor whether aircraft keep to flight paths, and it will begin to fine aircraft that do not. After its efforts last year, the airport was awarded the north-west "Golden Lear' award because it was the business doing the most to limit the environmental impact of its operations in the north-west. The airport has quite a good record.
      The argument that is now raging is whether a second runway at Manchester is essential. First, it is argued that a second runway is needed because of maintenance or disruption to the existing runway. Secondly, the airport is claiming that future demand in the area will require a second runway and it has produced figures to substantiate its claim. However, at protest meetings and in the letters that the right hon. Gentleman and I have received, Gatwick is always cited as an example of an airport that has only one runway, yet still manages to cope with more passengers and more aircraft movements than Manchester.
      Some figures supplied by a local resident compare the numbers of passenger and aircraft movements for Manchester and for Gatwick. For the year ending 31 December 1990, Manchester handled 10·8 million passengers, while Gatwick handled 21 million. It is estimated that, by the year 2000, Manchester will handle 22 million and Gatwick 30 million. For that same year, Manchester handled 123,000 aircraft movements, while Gatwick handled 189,000. It is estimated that, by 1995, Manchester will handle 172,000 and Gatwick 200,000.
      People say that Gatwick, which does more business than Manchester, manages with a single runway—so why the need for a second runway at Manchester? That fact has had a great impact on people who oppose a second runway. The other constant theme in the letters that I have received is that people feel that the issue should be dealt with as a regional problem. They believe that a regional

      837
      study should be undertaken to identify where passenger traffic originates—in the whole of the north of England, not just in the Manchester area—in the hope that some traffic could be diverted for the mutual benefit of the north of England as a whole. I hope that the idea of a regional survey will be considered in conjunction with the continuing consideration of runway capacity in the south-east. It is vital, in the national interest, to ensure that maximum use is made of regional airports, consistent with the demand that they can attract.
      Another point that needs clarifying is whether there should be greater co-operation between the airports of Manchester and Liverpool. Again, one of the themes running through the letters of constituents is that, if more jobs are to be created, it might be more sensible to create them in Liverpool where they are more greatly needed. On the other hand, Manchester airport has published research carried out by the Henley centre, which claims:
      "We are able to give an unequivocal response. From a carrier perspective, a passenger perspective and for the economic good of the region as a whole, it would be better to develop a second runway at Manchester, rather than redevelop Speke as a major international airport."
      We therefore have two conflicting views, to which I hope my hon. Friend the Minister will give some thought.
      The problem appears to relate to how near people live to the airport. Those who live a fair distance away are in favour of more development because that would mean more jobs and greater prosperity in the area. Those who live close to the airports or under the flight path do not have quite the same enthusiasm for expansion. My constituents have written to me expressing concern about the increase in pollution and noise that a second runway would generate, even with double glazing. I am told that, when the weather is hot and they need to open their windows to get some cool air in the evening, the noise makes that unpleasant for them. When people sit in their gardens talking, they have to stop because they cannot be heard above the noise of passing aircraft.
      My constituents are concerned about the environmental damage that would occur in Bollin valley. They are worried about the congestion on local roads that would be caused by the additional cars that would be used in the area and they are especially concerned about the effects on the already overcrowded M56.
      I wish to mention one novel suggestion passed to me —that everyone who uses Manchester airport should pay £1 tax. The money collected—this year, it would have amounted to about £11 million—could be placed in a separate fund and used to bring about improvements for those who suffer nuisance from the activities of the airport.
      I should be grateful if my hon. Friend the Minister could give some idea of the procedures that will be followed. That point was made by the right hon. Member for Manchester, Wythenshawe (Mr. Morris). I can only assume that he must have read the end of my speech because he used almost the same words that I shall use.
      As I understand it, the airport board will either say before Christmas that there will not be a second runway or it will advance a preferred option. If it does the latter, it will have to make a planning application to the relevant local authority. I am told that that would most likely be made at the end of 1993. The Secretary of State would call in the application and a public inquiry with an independent inspector would he held in 1994 and 1995.
      838
      That process is essential, because it will allow objectors to put their case publicly and will ensure that their arguments are fairly considered before a final decision is taken.
      I hope that the airport will give my constituents a lovely Christmas present. I have always supported the airport, but plans for expansion must take into account the concerns of local residents. There is no way in which I could support growth at any price.
      6.10 pm
      The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. Patrick McLoughlin): I begin by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale (Sir F. Montgomery) on securing a second Adjournment debate on Manchester airport within a short period. As we are talking about one of the top 20 airports in the world, the time is well spent. I confirm the point that he made about the airport not being controlled by the Government—far from it, as he made clear.
      The right hon. Member for Manchester, Wythenshawe (Mr. Morris), in whose constituency the airport is located, made a valid point about the overall context and importance of the airport. I am sorry that he diverted into the realms of privatisation. If any privatisation proposals are made, we shall debate them in more detail on a later occasion. I should prefer not to debate them now, as I am pressed for time, but our experience of companies that have been privatised is that there has been no dereliction of duty.
      One of the objectives that the Government had in mind when the largest local authority airports were reconstructed as companies under the Airports Act 1986 was that they should think and plan ahead as businesses. That involves them in considering the financing of airport activities, but as important is the preparation of strategies for the development of their airports so that the public can be consulted and so that the environmental implications can be considered in good time.
      Manchester was in the forefront of creating an airport company and it has been in the lead in preparing development strategies and in public involvement. Its existing strategy, prepared in 1987, covers the period to 1995. The airport company has now published a draft of the fourth development strategy that will cover the period to 2005. It is right that the company should set out its proposals and the rationale for them. Although we recognise that the options that the draft contains may cause severe concerns to some of the people living near the airport, others will be encouraged by the prospect of the greater opportunities that these proposals represent.
      The airport is well known as a major source of employment for the region. There are more than 150 companies at the airport, employing almost 10,000 people. An additional 15,000 jobs in the region are dependent on the airport.
      Mr. Alfred Morris: It employs more than 10,000 directly at the airport.
      Mr. McLoughlin: The right hon. Gentleman says that it is more than 10,000. It is certainly a vibrant part of Manchester.
      I said only last week in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton, North-East (Mr. Thurnham) that passenger numbers at the airport had increased from 3·4 million in 1979 to more than 10 million in 1990. For

      839
      several years in succession, Manchester has been Europe's fastest expanding airport. The airport company forecasts that passenger numbers will increase to 16 million in 1995, to 22 million in the year 2000 and beyond that.
      Translating such figures into requirements for terminal and runway capacity is not as straightforward as it may seem because of the uncertainties about aircraft sizes, the mix between schedule and charter traffic and the amount of hub traffic that is expected, but Manchester forecasts that demand during the morning peak period in 1995 will be equivalent to about 60 aircraft movements per hour, compared with the existing capacity of between 41 or 42 movements.
      In the short term, it may be possible to constrain demand by measures such as pricing and liaison on airline schedules. The airport company plans to carry out work to the runway and to the taxiway system to maximise the capacity of the existing runways, but it is concerned that, by the time that passengers levels reach about 18 million, which they are expected to reach in the late 1990s, it will have to turn traffic away because of the shortage of peak-time slots. That is the background to the airport company's proposal to construct a second runway.
      I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale about the need for local people to be able to use their own local airport. I wish that we could think of another name for regional airports. It is unfair to describe Manchester, Birmingham or other airports as regional airports—they are major airports. Manchester is the third largest airport in the United Kingdom and it is wrong to describe it as a regional airport.
      We received a report from the CAA on airport capacity —document CAP 570. We have established a broadly based working group to take forward and to build on the CAA's advice in CAP 570. In considering the south-east area's capacity, it will take full account of the important contributions that regional airports can make to meeting overall growth in demand. The group is testing the CAA's findings that although traffic at regional airports will continue to grow strongly, development at these airports would not provide an effective substitute for additional capacity in the south-east. Indeed, the report stated that we would need to look for a new runway in the south-east by 2005. We are taking advice on the problem in the south-east.
      The working group has established a sub-group specifically to consider those important regional issues. It is chaired by a representative of the Joint Airports Committee of Local Authorities, which is making a substantial and valuable contribution to the group's work. I look forward to learning the results of its studies.
      My hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale mentioned Liverpool. I have no doubt that there is room for development at Liverpool airport, but its owner—British Aerospace—must decide whether to seek an accommodation with Manchester. It cannot be ignored, however, that by some margin Manchester is the third biggest airport in the United Kingdom. It is a substantial regional airport which provides a wide range of international services for the business traveller and holidaymaker, covering about 140 destinations. It will want to pursue the development in a way that seems most appropriate to its commercial operations.
      840
      Accordingly, Manchester is formulating its own plans to meet the demand being generated within its catchment area. Twenty million people and 60 per cent. of the United Kingdom's manufacturing industry are located within two hours drive of the airport. The CAA's advice in CAP 570 contains traffic projections for Manchester that are broadly comparable to those that the airport company has recently produced. Moreover, the CAA concluded there would be a need for a new runway to serve the north-west and, prima facie, a site in the Manchester area was indicated. The airport company's evaluation of potential runway options has been carried out in conjunction with the CAA to ensure a robust analysis compatible with national air traffic planning. An initial study by the company shows that a second runway could be integrated into the air traffic system both regionally and nationally.
      My hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale will not expect detailed views from me today on the three areas of search for a second runway contained in the draft development strategy. The airport company has rightly set out the options and invited comments on them. It has also given an undertaking that it will announce its preferred option before Christmas. I join my hon. Friend in hoping that there will be no slippage in that announcement. We are all aware of the uncertainty that proposed major developments have caused. Therefore, the sooner that uncertainty is ended the better. The undertaking is important to end the uncertainty that the possibility of large-scale airport development inevitably creates.
      Some of this uncertainty relates to the differing noise effects which local residents may suffer directly from the various options. There is also more general concern about aircraft noise as an environmental issue, together with concern about landscape and air and water quality. Manchester airport lies in attractive open countryside, within the green belt and close to residential communities. At the same time, its development is closely related to our aviation liberalisation policies and to our achievements since 1979 in regenerating the economy of the north-west. The airport company recognises that it has a particularly difficult task in balancing the claims of development and the environment.
      Noise abatement measures are generally the responsibility of the owners or operators of airports. We believe that these local matters are best discussed and resolved locally, but we expect owners or operators to reduce the disturbance caused by their operations so far as is practicable and reasonable. We also believe that Manchester airport is taking its environmental responsibilities seriously—for example, its noise and track-keeping system and its contribution to research on sleep disturbance.
      One cannot completely overcome noise problems, but the airport company is doing what it can reasonably be expected to do to mitigate the effects. That can be achieved without recourse to new taxation. My hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale would not wish us to follow through that suggestion which his constituents may have made, but I accept the specific points that have been made about people using the airport and the impact on the locality. This matter can best be addressed by the airport, without introducing new taxation. New taxation would set a precedent for other airports, which I am not sure we would welcome.
      The Government, too, are playing an active role in reducing aircraft noise. The United Kingdom played a

      841
      major part last year in securing worldwide agreement within the International Civil Aviation Organisation to ban the older, noisier, chapter 2 types of aircraft between 1995 and the year 2002. A European Community directive on the subject will be incorporated into United Kingdom legislation. On current forecasts, the phasing out of noisier jets will improve the noise environment around airports, even with projected increases in traffic.
      Noise will, of course, be one of the factors covered in the environmental impact assessment which will accompany the airport's planning application for its preferred choice of runway site. It hopes to reach that stage by 1993. Consideration of the issues would then be a matter for the planning system in the normal way. My hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale and the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe said that they would campaign vigorously to have applications called in. Whether an application should be called in is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the environment to determine in the circumstances that exist at the time. The Government's general approach is not to interfere with the jurisdiction of local planning authorities unless that is necessary.
      In general, cases are called in only if planning issues of more than local importance are involved—for example, those that have wide effects beyond the immediate locality, those that give rise to substantial regional or national controversy, those that may conflict with national policy on important matters and those where the interests of national security of foreign Governments may be involved. There is a fairly wide definition. I am sure that it would not be beyond the ability of my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale to make a strong case for consideration by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State.
      There are no easy solutions in building a runway. In many debates, hon. Members on both sides of the House have agreed with the need for additional runway capacity. However, there are always differences over where that extra capacity should be. One of the most memorable of those occasions occurred when the House debated the findings of CAP 570. My hon. Friends said that a new runway was essential, but they then explained why it should not be at the airport closest to their constituencies. It is a difficult decision and we face great difficulties in dealing with applications.
      We have no control over the airport. As my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale pointed out, the company is controlled by local councillors in the main and by three executive officers. I am sorry to hear about personal attacks on Gil Thompson, whom I respect and to
      842
      whom I have listened. I am disturbed to hear of personal attacks on someone who is doing a professional job. It is unfortunate if such things happen and would not serve any purpose.
      Over the past 10 years, through the Government's liberalisation policies, the tremendous growth in regional airports has brought tremendous benefits to the people living in those areas. They do not necessarily have to travel to the south-east to get a flight. The important changes that have occurred have been generally welcomed, because those airports have provided new hubs for business. In 1979, just over 3 million passengers used Manchester airport, the number has grown to more than 10 million. Many people are directly employed by the airport.
      Mr. Stephen Day: I wish to make it clear to my hon. Friend that Manchester airport is recognised as an asset for the region. The problem is that, in Cheadle, my constituents have been asked to face the prospect of not only a second runway but night flights.
      Mr. McLoughlin: I thank my hon. Friend. Those are important points. My hon. Friends the Members for Cheadle and for Altrincham and Sale have stressed the importance of achieving a balance between expansion and environmental considerations, such as noise abatement. There are no easy solutions, but it is right that Manchester airport has formulated a long-term strategy and is [consulting the public about it. We need to —
      It being not later than half an hour after the motion had been made, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER suspended the Sitting, pursuant to Order [18 October.]
      Sitting suspended at 6.27 pm.
      7.24 pm
      MR. SPEAKER resumed the Chair.
      Message to attend the Lords Commissioners:
      The House went:—and, having returned:

      Royal Assent
      7.50 pm
      Mr. Speaker: I have to acquaint the House that the House has been to the House of Peers where a Commission under the Great Seal was read, authorising the Royal Assent to the following:

      British Technololgy Group Act 1991

      Export and Investment Guarantees Act 1991

      Greater Manchester (Light Rapid Transit System) (No. 5) Act 1991

      Birmingham City Council Act 1991.

  Prorogation

    Her Majesty's Most Gracious Speech
    Mr. Speaker: I have further to acquaint the House that the Lord High Chancellor, one of the Lord Commissioners, delivered Her Majesty's Most Gracious Speech to both Houses of Parliament, in pursuance of Her Majesty's Command. For greater accuracy, I have obtained a copy and also directed that the terms of the speech be printed in the Votes and Proceedings. Copies are being made available in the Vote Office.
    The Gracious Speech was as follows:
    My Lords and Members of the House of Commons
    The Duke of Edinburgh and I were pleased to receive the State Visits of His Excellency the President of the Republic of Poland and Mrs. Walesa in April and His Excellency the President of the Arab Republic of Egypt and Mrs. Mubarak in July.
    We recall with pleasure our State Visit to the United States of America in June. We remember with satisfaction our State Visits to Namibia and Zimbabwe in October, where I was also present on the occasion of the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting.
    My Government played a full and vigorous part in the action taken by the United Nations and the international community to eject Iraqi forces from Kuwait and to restore that country's independence and legitimate government, and in setting up a Compensation Fund for those who suffered following Iraq's invasion. They responded rapidly to the Iraqi Government's persecution of their own people. They have made it clear that Iraq cannot resume its place in the international community while the present government remain in power.
    My Government have continued to make a substantial contribution to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, and otherwise to maintain provision for national defence commitments. They have welcomed improvements in the security situation in Europe and are participating fully in adapting the Alliance, including the development of a stronger European defence identity in the Western European Union. They have announced proposals to restructure Britain's defences to reflect changing international circumstances.
    My Government hosted the successful Economic Summit in July and the subsequent historic meeting between Summit leaders and President Gorbachev of the Soviet Union. Following the Summit, My Government vigorously denounced the attempted coup in the Soviet Union, and supported President Yeltsin's courageous stand against it. They have been working actively to encourage the integration of the Soviet Union and its Republics into the international economy. My Government welcomed warmly the return to independence of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.
    My Government have continued to work for balanced and verifiable arms control agreements. They played an important part in concluding the Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe, and in the Third Review Conference of the Biological and Toxic Weapons Convention.
    My Government have played a full part in the development of the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe. They have worked actively for new mechanisms for maintaining stability in Europe.
    My Government have continued to work towards the Single European Market. They have participated fully in negotiations in the Inter-Governmental Conferences on political union and economic and monetary union. They have supported the development of the Community's relations with other European nations. They have, with our European partners, concluded joint declarations with the United States, Canada and Japan; and economic and financial agreements with Asia, Latin America and the Mediterranean non-member countries.
    My Government welcomed the inaugural meeting of the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development in London in April. They have continued their active support for democratic change in Eastern Europe.
    My Government's commitment to strengthening the United Nations was reflected in the Political Declaration issued by the London Economic Summit.
    My Government have maintained a substantial and effective overseas aid programme to assist developing countries.
    My Government welcomed progress towards democratic government in Africa, and towards the end of apartheid in South Africa. They have worked strenuously for the prosperity and stability of Hong Kong. They have welcomed the continuing progress in Latin America towards democracy and market economies.
    My Government have continued their sustained efforts to combat terrorism in the United Kingdom and elsewhere. They welcomed the recent release of hostages from Lebanon and have maintained their efforts to obtain the release of all remaining hostages in the Middle East.
    My Government ratified the 1988 United Nations Convention Against Illicit Traffic in Narcotic Drugs and Psychotropic Substances and have played a full part in establishing the United Nations International Drugs Control Programme. They concluded agreements to confiscate drug traffickers' funds with seven governments.
    My Government welcomed the agreement of the consultative parties to an environmental protocol to the Antarctic Treaty.
    Members of the House of Commons
    I thank you for the provision which you have made for the honour and dignity of the Crown and for the public service.
    My Lords and Members of the House of Commons
    My Government have pursued firm financial policies which have reduced inflation sharply and laid the foundations for the resumption of sustained growth. The pound sterling has remained well within its band in the Exchange Rate Mechanism.
    My Government have further reduced the rate of Corporation Tax and made a number of changes to the tax system to benefit businesses. They have introduced additional measures to help unemployed people return to work.
    As part of My Government's privatisation pro-gramme, the electricity supply industry in Great Britain has been restructured and shares in the companies sold.
    The Citizen's Charter White Paper set out My Government's policies for improving the quality of public

    845
    services through increased choice, better value for money and stronger accountability.
    Legislation has been enacted to establish a School Teachers' Review Body for England and Wales.
    My Government have implemented reforms of the National Health Service, and announced strategies for improving health. They have implemented the Children Act.
    An Act has been passed to improve the town and country planning system, and the arrangements for compensation for compulsory purchase.
    My Government have continued to work for the regeneration of our cities. New competitive funding initiatives have been introduced to improve the quality of regeneration in priority areas and the renovation and management of local authority housing in England and Wales.
    An Act has been passed to give the Courts jurisdiction to try certain war crimes of the Second World War.
    Legislation has been enacted to improve the administration of criminal justice and the treatment of offenders in England and Wales.
    An Act has been passed to strengthen the law on dangerous dogs.
    Legislation has been enacted to provide new benefits for disabled people and to strengthen parental responsibility for children by improving the assessment, collection and enforcement of maintenance.
    An Act has been passed to improve the arrangements governing coal mining subsidence.
    Legislation has been enacted to encourage private financing of roads and better coordination of street-works; to improve road traffic law and management and to enable trust ports to become publicly-owned companies.
    Legislation has been enacted to enable contractor operation of the Atomic Weapons Establishment, and to provide for the sale of the British Technology Group.
    An Act has been passed to update the powers of the Export and Credit Guarantee Department and to facilitate the sale of the Insurance Services business.
    In Northern Ireland, My Government's efforts to combat terrorism have continued. An Act has been passed to reform anti-terrorist legislation. My Government have continued to encourage political progress by promoting collective talks with the main constitutional Northern Ireland parties. They, have maintained a constructive relationship with the Republic of Ireland under the Anglo-Irish Agreement.
    For Scotland, legislation has provided for a Natural Heritage Agency, to secure an integrated approach to conservation and countryside mutters.
    My Lords and Members of the House of Commons
    I pray that the blessing of Almighty God may attend you.
    Thereafter a Commission for proroguing the Parliament was read, after which the Lord Chancellor said:
    "My Lords and Members of the House of Commons: by virtue of Her Majesty's Commission which has now been read, we do, in Her Majesty's name, and in obedience to Fier Majesty's Commands, prorogue this Parliament to Thursday the thirty-first day of this instant October, to be then her holden, and this Parliament is accordingly prorogued to Thursday the thirty-first day of this instant October."
    End of the Fourth Session (opened on 7 November 1990) of the Fiftieth Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, in the Fortieth Year of the Reign of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second.

ATTORNEY-GENERAL

  Bank of Credit and Commerce International
  Mr. Vaz
  To ask the Attorney-General (1) how many members of the Serious Fraud Office are currently in Abu Dhabi;

  (2) what steps were taken by the Serious Fraud Office to prevent those responsible for the fraud against BCCI leaving the United Kingdom;

  (3) how many members of the Serious Fraud Office are currently in the United States of America in connection with the BCCI issue;

  (4) when the Serious Fraud Office first became involved in the BCCI affair.

  The Attorney-General
  The Serious Fraud Office first became aware from the Bank of England of concerns over BCCI on the 1 July 1991. On the 4 July 1991—the day prior to the appointment of provisional liquidators—it received relevant papers from the Bank of England with a view to investigation. No steps are available to the Serious Fraud Office to restrict the liberty of individuals wishing to leave the United Kingdom unless those persons have been charged with criminal offences. I am satisfied that no person has left the jurisdiction at a time when the Serious Fraud Office was in possession of evidence sufficient to justify the institution of proceedings.

  It is the policy of the Serious Fraud Office not to disclose the deployment of operational staff involved in criminal investigation.

  Asylum Seekers
  Mr. Lawrence
  To ask the Attorney-General what he estimates is likely to be the cost to the legal aid fund of providing financial assistance for solicitors and counsel for those of the 50,000 annual asylum seekers who may be refused asylum and wish to appeal.

  The Attorney-General
  Full legal aid for representation is not available for asylum appeals. Current average figures for the cost of advice and assistance are available only for all immigration, asylum and nationality matters and the costs of asylum cannot be separated out. Using current average figures the probable cost of advice and assistance in 50,000 asylum cases would be in the region of £9 million.

  Family Proceedings
  Mr. Carrington
  To ask the Attorney-General what steps are to be taken in respect of those persons who may attend family proceedings; and what may be disclosed publicly about such proceedings.

  The Attorney-General
  The present law has grown up piecemeal and is fragmented with different rules applying in different types of court and proceedings. As part of the 468
  Government's review of the family justice system, my noble and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor has put in hand a review of the current law and practice in respect of access to and reporting of family proceedings. As a first step, a group of officials advised by Professor Brenda Hoggett has been set up under the auspices of the family law and administration working party. Its purpose is to analyse the present law and practice and to identify existing inconsistencies, the options for change and the issues involved in any reform. The Government will use the results of the group's work as the basis for wide ranging consultations with all those interested, including the judiciary and the media, before reaching any conclusions about what reform might be desirable.

  Private Security Firms
  Mr. George
  To ask the Attorney-General if he will list the number of private security firms currently employed by his Department, the number of employees for each firm on the contract, the total value of each contract and the total value of all contracts for each financial year since 1984–85.

  The Attorney-General
  The legal secretariat to the Law Officers does not employ a private security firm. The Treasury Solictor's Department does not currently employ a private security firm, but did so in respect of one of its buildings from June to August 1991. The firm engaged one employee on the contract, the cost of which was shared as to 50 per cent. with the Charity Commission. The share borne by the Treasury Solicitor's department was £4,269.

  The Crown prosecution service currently employs two private security firms with four and three employees engaged respectively by each firm on the contract. The total value of each contract is £82,000 and £57,000.

  The total value of all contracts since 1984 is as follows:

  £

  1986–87

  9,000

  1987–88

  14,000

  1988–89

  33,500

  1989–90

  83,500

  1990–91

  119,000

  The Serious Fraud Office currently employs one private security firm. The contract specifies a security complement of seven employees and the total value of this contract is £136,000.

  The total value of all contracts for each financial year since 1984–85 is as follows:

  £

  1984–87

  Nil

  1987–88

  3,050·00

  1988–89

  36,460·00

  1989–90

  42,397·00

  1990–91

  48,006·00

TRANSPORT

  Disability
  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (1) if he will invite the European Commission to proceed with the proposed directive 4315/91 under article 75; and if he will make a statement;
  469
  (2) if he will give the details and address of the section and directorate within the European Commission concerned with the exclusion of non-workers from the proposed directive (4315/91) on transport of workers with reduced mobility;

  (3) if taxi cabs are to be covered by the proposed directive 4315/91.

  Mr. Freeman
  I will write to my hon. Friend.

  Mr. Carr
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he has any plans to extend the orange badge scheme to sufferers of inflammatory bowel disease.

  Mr. Chope
  Sufferers of Crohn's disease are eligible for assistance under the orange badge scheme if their disability is permanent and substantial and causes very considerable difficulty in walking.

  British Rail
  Mr. Brazier
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what proposals he has received from the chairman of British Rail about the future of Railfreight Distribution Freightliner container services; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Freeman
  British Rail has today announced that, following a comprehensive review by independent consultants, its container-carrying services in the United Kingdom will be streamlined in May 1992. I have arranged for a copy of British Rail's announcement to be placed in the Library of the House.

  Eurofreight Terminal
  Mr. Ingram
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when he last met British Rail to discuss the siting of the Eurofreight terminal in Scotland; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Freeman
  The decision on where to locate channel tunnel freight terminals is a commercial one for British Rail. I expect them to announce the chosen site for the Scottish terminal very shortly.

  Private Security Firms
  Mr. George
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will list the number of private security firms currently employed by his Department, the number of employees for each firm on the contract, the total value of each contract and the total value of all contracts for each financial year since 1984–85.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Radioactive Materials (Imports)
  Mrs. Margaret Ewing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will list in the Official Report by year for the past 10 years, and for each port in Scotland, the number of tonnes of radioactive material that was imported.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Shipping Dues
  Mr. Fearn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what consultations he has had with the Chamber of Shipping over the increases in light due tariffs during the current year.
  470
  Mr. McLoughlin
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Coastguard Stations
  Mr. Fearn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (1) if he will make a statement on the future of Her Majesty's coastguard stations;

  (2) what further closures of Her Majesty's coastguard stations are planned.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Discounted Bus Fares
  Mr. Fearn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what representations he has had regarding the current age at which school children stop paying discount fares on buses.

  Mr. Freeman
  We have received few such representations recently.

  Mr. Fearn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make his policy to seek to raise the age for discounted fares on buses from 14 to 16 years.

  Mr. Freeman
  Bus companies are already free to offer cheap fares on a commercial basis to children of any age, and section 93 of the Transport Act 1985 gives local authorities outside London powers to include children under 16 years in a concessionary fares scheme. The decisions on what concessions to give and the ages of the children included in a particular scheme are for the authority concerned.

  Visual Disability
  Mr. Fearn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when he last met the Royal National Institute for the Blind to discuss access to public transport for the partially sighted.

  Mr. Freeman
  My Department is in touch regularly with the Royal National Institute for the Blind and other organisations representing blind and partially sighted people on access to public transport and a wide range of other mobility issues.

  Tourism
  Mr. Fearn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what consultations he has had with London Transport regarding the proportion of visitors using the underground and buses.

  Mr. Freeman
  Sample surveys carried out by the London tourist board suggest that the majority of visitors to London make some use of bus and underground services. I refer the hon. Member to my hon. Friend's answer of 11 January 1989,Official Report, columns 699–700. The matter has not been the subject of any recent consultation between London Transport and this Department.

  Blackwall Tunnel
  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what steps he has taken subsequent on his official visit to the Blackwall tunnel on 3 September, to
  471
  minimise preventable traffic congestion and delay in east London by improved traffic management, road signing and similar methods.

  Mr. Freeman
  With regard to the Blackwall tunnel, I refer the hon. Member to the answer given on Tuesday 15 October,Official Report, columns 124–25. When road-works are carried out they will often cause some degree of traffic congestion. However, the Department always takes great care to devise works in such a way as to minimise delay for the motorist and nuisance for others.

  Trunk Road Crossings
  Mr. Ground
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what criteria he applies to the provision of pedestrian bridges over trunk roads in urban areas.

  Mr. Chope
  Each proposal for the provision of a footbridge or subway is considered on its merits. These include pedestrian and vehicle flows, accident record, availability of alternative crossing points, topography of the site, environmental and economic considerations, ages and mobility of pedestrians likely to use the facility and the possibility of anti-social behaviour. All these aspects are discussed in chapter 24 of HMSO publication prepared by the Institution of Highways and Transportation with the Department of Transport, entitled "Roads and Traffic in Urban Areas", a copy of which will be placed in the Library as soon as possible.

  Mr. Ground
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what factors led to the selection of the wire fencing now separating the part of Cranford village south of the A4 from the part to the north; and who was responsible for the selection of this fencing.

  Mr. Chope
  The fencing will help to prevent crossover accidents, cushioning the impact of vehicles which may collide with it; also it is high enough to deter pedestrians from vaulting over. The decision to install this type of fencing in this location was taken by the London regional office of the Department.

  Mr. Ground
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what criteria he applies to the provision of light-controlled crossings on trunk roads.

  Mr. Chope
  The criteria are based on an assessment of road safety and the degree of conflict between pedestrians and vehicles at the proposed crossing place. Other local factors, for example, adjacent to homes for the elderly, school entrances, and so on are taken into account as matters of local judgment.

  The criteria are published in departmental advice note TA52/87, "Design Considerations for Pelican and Zebra Crossings". A copy is in the Library.

  A4, Cranford
  Mr. Ground
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport under what powers a wire fence has been erected along the middle of the Cranford section of the A4 road; and over what length of trunk road in England such wire fencing has previously been placed by his Department.

  Mr. Chope
  Section 64 of the Highways Act 1980 empowers any highway authority to construct and 472
  maintain central reserve fencing on dual carriageways; in addition section 66 of that Act empowers any highway authority to provide and maintain pedestrian safety fencing. There is no central record of how much wire fencing of a similar design to that on the A4 has been installed along other trunk roads.

  Mr. Ground
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what would be the cost of providing(a) a further light-controlled crossing on and (b) a pedestrain bridge over the Cranford section of the A4.

  Mr. Chope
  Depending on circumstances, particularly statutory undertakers' costs, a tentative estimate for(a) would be £100,000 and for (b) £400,000.

  Oxleas Wood
  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will consider re-routing or covering the proposed road through Oxleas wood.

  Mr. Chope
  No. The alignment of the east London river crossing scheme was decided in July 1988 in accordance with the inspector's recommendation following a public inquiry lasting 15 months. The decision not to provide a tunnel through part of Oxleas wood was taken in 1988 only after very thorough consideration of the effects of the scheme on the environment, ecology and recreational use of the woodland.

  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what response he will make to the letters from the European Environment Commissioner about Oxleas wood and other threatened sites.

  Mr. Chope
  The formal letter of 17 October 1991 from the European Commission sets out a number of respects in which it is alleged that directive 85/337 EEC on environmental impact assessment had not been correctly implemented. The letter will be studied very carefully before a reply is sent. Commissioner Ripa di Meana also sent, and released to the press, a personal letter to my right hon. and learned Friend. In reply, my right hon. and learned Friend has told him that construction of the three schemes—Hackney-M 11 link, east London river crossing. and M3 Twyford Down—had not begun and was not due to begin for some considerable time, but that the schemes were urgently needed and the Department would be continuing with the necessary advance works.

  Channel Tunnel Rail Link
  Mr. Warren
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when private contractors will be permitted to commence the construction of the channel tunnel rail link

  Mr. Freeman
  I will write to my hon. Friend.

  Mr. Steinberg
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what is the projected number of trains per hour that will travel through the channel tunnel.

  Mr. Freeman
  Hourly figures are not available. However, British Rail plans to run 75 passenger and freight trains each way per day through the tunnel.

  Commissioner Ripa di Meana
  Ms. Ruddock
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (1) when his officials last spoke to officials in Commissioner Ripa di Meana's office; and what subjects were discussed;
  473
  (2) if he will make a statement on the content and outcome of his telephone conversation in September with Commissioner Ripa di Meana.

  Mr. Freeman
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Severn Bridge
  Mr. Murphy
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (1) what was the total cost of repair works to the Severn bridge since 1984;

  (2) when he expects the present repair works on the Severn bridge to be completed.

  Mr. Chope
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  London Transport International Limited
  Mr. Fraser
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will seek a meeting with the chairman of London Transport to discuss the proposed closure of London Transport International Limited, consultants.

  Mr. Freeman
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  East Norton Bypass
  Sir John Farr
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what steps he intends to take to alleviate local fears that the newly opened A47 East Norton bypass, Leicestershire has transferred accidents from the village road to the new junction.

  Mr. Chope
  I will write to my hon. Friend.

  Traffic Director for London
  Mr. Carrington
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when the Traffic Director for London will take up office; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Chope
  Following an open competition, I appointed Mr. Derek Turner as Traffic Director for London on 16 October under the provisions of section 52 of the Road Traffic Act 1991. Mr. Turner will be taking up the post on 9 November. His task will be to co-ordinate the introduction and maintenance of the red route measures in London and monitor their operation.

  Lorry Speeds
  Mr. Butler
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will meet with the European Commission to discuss its proposed directive limiting lorries of over 12 tonnes to 50 mph; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Chope
  I will write to my hon. Friend.

  Actual start of works

  Programmed start of works

  Programmed/actual completion

  Contract 1: Catthorpe Interchange

  February1990

  —

  Summer 1990

  Contract 2: Catthorpe to Rothwell

  —

  late 1991

  late 1993

  Contract 3: Catthorpe to Rothwell

  —

  late 1991

  late 1993

  Contract 4: Rothwell to Kettering

  March 1990

  —

  May 1991

  Contract 5 (N): Kettering Northern Bypass

  —

  January 1992

  March 1993

  Contract 5 (S): Kettering Southern Bypass

  February 1990

  —

  November 1991

  Contract 6: Kettering to Thrapston

  May 1989

  —

  November 1990

  Contract 7: Thrapston to Brampton

  November 1989

  —

  1 December 1990 west,6 February 1991 east

  Contract 8: Thrapston to Brampton

  5 August 1991

  —

  Spring 1993

  Video Recordings
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, pursuant to his answer of 18 June,Official Report, column 69, to the hon. Member for Don Valley, if he will make it his practice to keep central records of lists of titles of the video recordings purchased by his Department.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  This information could be collected and recorded only at disproportionate cost.

  A500
  Ms. Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what representations he has received concerning his decision to remove truck stops from the A500 trunk road north of Hanchurch, Stoke on Trent.

  Mr. Chope
  Six objections have been received to the published draft clearway order, three of them to the prohibition of trading.

  A5-M11 Trunk Road
  Sir Ian Stewart
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what discussions have been held with Hertfordshire county council and with North Hertfordshire district council by Acer Consultants Ltd. in connection with their work on the alignment of an east-west trunk road regarding the section between the A5 and the M11.

  Mr. Chope
  Acer Consultants Limited and its sub-contractors have had a series of meetings at working level with both county and district councils to gather views and information about constraints within the areas of interest.

  Al-M1 Link Road
  Sir John Farr
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what is his latest date for completion of the Al-M1 link road; and if he will advance his plans in this respect.

  Mr. Chope
  All remaining contracts are programmed to be let by the end of this year. The road should be completed by the end of 1993. Although this is subject to the effects of the action of the Society for the Preservation of the Field of the Battle of Naseby in fragmenting one plot within contract 2 into multiple ownership.

  The position for each contract is as follows.
  475

  Actual start of works

  Programmed start of works

  Programmed/actual completion

  Contract 9: Thrapston to Brampton

  —

  November 1991

  Summer 1993

  Contract 10: Advance works for Railway Bridge on Kettering

  Northern Bypass

  April 1990

  —

  November 1991

  Speed Limits
  Mr. Barry Field
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how much more the Isle of Wight county council would receive in grant if the island had a universal speed limit of(a) 30 mph, (b) 40 mph and (c) 50 mph.

  Mr. Chope
  It is estimated that(a) and (b) would increase revenue support grant by about £1 million, and that (c) would decrease grant by about £1 million. Criteria for determining appropriate speed limits are set out in circulars (roads) Nos 1/80 and 4/83.

  Railway Junctions
  Mr. Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what information he has on proposals to change the junction at Newton station, on which the collision of 21 July occurred, from a single to a double track junction; and if he will make a statement on future policy towards the singling of double junctions.

  Mr. Freeman
  I understand that British Rail has carried out a study of locations where there are platform starting signals which protect a single lead junction at a through passenger station. As a result of the study, 10 locations, including Newton, have been identified at which enhanced protection arrangements are being introduced. Consideration is being given at Newton to a number of options to guard against the possibility of a similar incident to that which occurred and these include a revised layout and/or trap points.

  Currently Newton junction is operating under special restricted arrangements to ensure safety pending the outcome of a technical investigation. It will be necessary to recommission the signalling before normal train operations restart.

  Future policy on the singling of double junctions is a matter for British Rail, though Her Majesty's railway inspectorate will continue to consider the safety of individual proposals before giving approval. As part of the independent inquiry into the Newton accident which is to be conducted by the Health and Safety Executive's deputy director general, Mr. David Eves, the safety of single lead junctions will be examined.

  Drink Driving
  Mr. David Marshall
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what special measures he intends taking to deal with the problem of drink driving over the Christmas and new year period; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Chope
  Drink driving is an all year round problem. As part of our continuing campaign against it, there will be television advertising over the Christmas period backed up by vigorous enforcement.

  A427
  Sir John Farr
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he has received the Action A427 document sent to him by the hon. Member for Harborough; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Chope
  Yes. The promotion of road improvements on the A427 is the responsibility of Leicestershire county council as the local highway authority. I regret, therefore, that I cannot intervene in the way in which my hon. Friend wishes.

  Sir John Farr
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will adopt the A427 between Lutterworth and Market Harborough.

  Mr. Chope
  No. The A427 is not a route of national strategic importance catering for the movement of long-distance traffic.

  Sir John Farr
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many accidents to pedestrians on the A427 from Lutterworth to Market Harborough there have been in the last two years; and if he has any plans to reduce the incidence.

  Mr. Chope
  I understand from Leicestershire county council, the highway authority for the A427, that there have been nine accidents involving pedestrians in this period. The responsibility for specific accident prevention measures on the A427 rests with Leicestershire county council.

  Trunk Roads
  Mr. Barry Field
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what recent representations he has had about trunk road status for the Isle of Wight.

  Mr. Chope
  None. I am now considering a case put by the Isle of Wight county council for certain roads on the island to be incorporated into the primary route network.

  Passenger Ferries
  Mr. Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (1) if he will list those passenger ferries which have been granted or are seeking exemption from the requirement to have a radio officer on board;

  (2) what advice his Department has given to the operators of passenger ships, on the withdrawal of radio officers following the implementation of the global maritime distress and safety system.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Winter Rail Services
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make a statement as to what review his Department has carried out with British Rail in respect of arrangements for dealing with severe weather during the forthcoming winter.
  477
  Mr. Freeman
  Department of Transport officials will be having discussions with British Rail in the next few weeks.

  Tees and Hartlepool Port
  Ms. Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what measure of price preference he intends to give to the bid from the management and employee consortium for the Tees and Hartlepool port.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Nuclear Material
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will list by year for the last 10 years, and for 1991 to date, the number of occasions that nuclear fuel has been transported to(a) Dounreay and (b) Sellafield via Doncaster.

  Mr. Chope
  The data requested are not collected by the Department of Transport. I understand, however, that irradiated nuclear fuel is not normally transported through Doncaster.

  Rail Safety
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make a statement on the current arrangements provided by British Rail for the safety of its customers.

  Mr. Freeman
  British Rail's safety plan sets out the board's safety policy and objectives and the wide range of initiatives under way. These include new safety management systems, improved training, investment in new equipment and changes in working methods. Copies of the plan are in the Library. The board's railway code gives advice on the safe use of railway services.

  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, pursuant to his answer of 20 June,Official Report, columns 275–82, to the hon. Member for Don Valley, if he will list those accidents that involved passengers falling from passenger trains that were in motion; and at what approximate speed the train was travelling.

  Mr. Freeman
  All the accidents listed in my previous answers involved falls from moving trains. Details of train speeds are not available.

  Mr. Alton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make a statement on the recent rail crash at Liverpool's Lime Street station; and whether the findings of the British Rail inspectorate will be made public.

  Mr. Freeman
  An empty diesel multiple unit train collided with the buffer stops at Liverpool Lime Street station at about 1330 hours on Saturday 5 October after its brakes had failed. It came to rest on the concourse. Fortunately, the signalman at Edge Hill was able to warn the station of the impending collision and the concourse was cleared. There were no serious injuries or serious damage to the station, though the buffer stops and one coach of the two-car train were damaged beyond repair. Earlier in the day the train had hit an obstruction on the line and received attention at Lime Street before being placed back in service.

  Nuclear Material
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will list for the last 12 months, the number of cargos of spent nuclear fuel flasks that have been carried on roll-on roll-off ferries.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Norwich Southern Bypass
  Mr. Patrick Thompson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make a statement about progress of work on the Norwich southern bypass and explain the reasons why problems involving the surfacing mix have not been fully resolved.

  Mr. Chope
  [holding answer 21 October 1991]: Site trials and tests are being carried out to ascertain the cause of problems with the road pavement which has been laid. The results of the tests will be available shortly, and I hope that a solution will be found which will still enable the bypass to be completed and open to traffic on schedule in the latter part of next year.

  A120
  Mr. Haselhurst
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when he expects to give grant approval for commencement of the A120 improvement between Stansted and Braintree.

  Mr. Chope
  [holding answer 21 October 1991]: When statutory procedures have been completed, a decision on grant approval for commencement of works will be made.

  M25
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many lanes are proposed for the recently announced filter/distributor road running alongside the M25.

  Mr. Chope
  [holding answer 21 October 1991]: The feasibility of schemes for collector distributor roads is still in the preliminary stages of investigation. Dual two or three-lanes could be required, depending on forecast traffic levels, which will vary from section to section.

  Driving Licences
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether the proposals to include the photograph of the licence holder on the driving licence involves disclosure of such photographic data to the police; whether he has given any fresh consideration to the data protection implications of the obtaining, disclosure and use of all driver information held by the driver and vehicle licensing centre; and whether he will make a statement.

  Mr. Chope
  [holding answer 21 October 1991]: Police have access to the driver licensing records for law enforcement purposes under the terms of the Road Traffic Act 1988 which removes any data protection restriction on such statutory disclosure. The Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency would seek the advice of the Data Protection Registrar on the disclosure of photographs on driving licences should the proposal to include photographs be implemented.

  Diesel Emissions
  Mr. Anthony Coombs
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what action his Department is taking to ensure that the level of heavy diesel fuel emissions is reduced.

  Mr. Chope
  Standards for new vehicles are set by European Community directives. Amendments to the heavy duty diesel emissions directive (EC 88/77) have recently been adopted. These set two mandatory stages of emission limits, the first coming into force next July, with a more stringent second stage in 1995. This second stage is of similar stringency to the standards to be applied in the United States from 1994.

  We shall be equipping all heavy goods vehicle test stations with smoke measuring instrumentation by next summer. This will offer scope to measure smoke emissions more accurately in the test station and at roadside checks, and also facilitate the introduction of tighter limits in the future.

  Lorry Speeds
  Mr. Ward
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how he intends to make the control of the speed of heavy lorries effective.

  Mr. Chope
  Enforcement of speed limits is primarily a matter for the police. Fitment of speed limiters to heavy goods vehicles will prevent speeding on motorways by those classes of vehicle to which they are fitted.

  Mr. Ward
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what consultations he has had with the European Commission about the maximum permitted speed for heavy lorries.

  Mr. Chope
  None. The Commission has made two proposals about the fitment of speed limiters to heavy goods vehicles, buses and coaches. Each proposal requires that the limiters should be set at certain speeds, which are about 10 mph below the motorway speed limits for these vehicles in this country. It is wholly inappropriate for Community directives on speed limiters to specify the speeds at which the limiters must be set. Speed limits are matters for individual nations to determine in the light of national considerations such as road design standards and rules governing driver behaviour. The speeds which are proposed also raise major practical difficulties going beyond the question of principle.

  Mr. Ward
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he has finalised his plans to fit speed limiters to heavy lorries; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Chope
  Regulations have been made requiring heavy goods vehicles over 7·5 tonnes maximum weight, and first used on or after 1 August 1992, to be fitted with speed limiters in order to restrict their maximum speed. The Department has consulted about proposals for fitment of speed limiters to some heavy goods vehicles over 16 tonnes maximum weight first used on or after 1 August 1988. The responses to that consultation are being considered.

  Motor Fuel
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what estimates of long-term elasticity of demand for motor fuel are used by his Department.
  480
  Mr. Chope
  [holding answer 21 October 1991]: Minus 0·4 for petrol used in private vehicles, and minus 0·1 for all fuel used by commercial vehicles.

  Passenger Safety
  Mr. Brian Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make a statement on the safety implications of the global maritime distress and safety system and the effect on safety of the withdrawal of radio officers from passenger ferries.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  The global maritime distress and safety system is an internationally agreed system that will use the latest technology, including satellite communications, to enhance distress communications. It will introduce a quicker and more accurate response to distress calls without necessarily requiring a radio officer.

ENVIRONMENT

  Bed-and-breakfast Accommodation
  Mr. McMaster
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will publish a table showing the most recent estimate of expenditure by local authorities on accommodating homeless families in temporary or bed-and-breakfast accommodation; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Yeo
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Listed Buildings
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will list the lidos in England and Wales that have been given a listed building status.

  Mr. Yeo
  This information is not readily available either in my Department or in the Welsh Office.

  Business Invoices
  Mr. Simon Coombs
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what is his Department's policy on the payment of invoices to small and medium-sized businesses.

  Mr. Heseltine
  It is my Department's policy to ensure that payments to contractors and consultants are made promptly within the period stipulated in the appropriate contract or within 30 days of receipt of a valid invoice.

  I am fully aware of the serious cash flow problems that small and medium-sized businesses may face if payments are late and special attention is given to the payment of their bills. My officials monitor payment performance, and make quarterly returns to the Department of Employment which intends to publish them.

  Land Disposal
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what information he has on sales or other disposals of land owned by water public limited companies; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Baldry
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Private Sector Tenancies
  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what has been the increase or decrease in percentage terms of available private sector tenancies for the two years following the Housing Act 1988, over the two preceding years.

  Mr. Yeo
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  London Docklands
  Mr. Leighton
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how much money in the current year's London Docklands development corporation budget has been allocated to affordable housing; and how many houses that will provide.

  Mr. Yeo
  The corporation proposes to spend £8·6 million on schemes of this kind during 1991–92. This is likely to result in 90 new housing units. The investment will, in addition, allow refurbishment works to some 1,500 properties.

  RNAD Coulport
  Mr. Andrew F. Bennett
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what measures have been taken during construction at Royal Navy Armaments Depot Coulport to ensure quality assurance for all steel being brought on site.

  Mr. Yeo
  The design, manufacture and supply of all steel for nuclear-related facilities being constructed at RNAD Coulport are subject to a PSA quality plan and PSA quality assurance requirements for contractors which comply with BS5882 and BS5750 respectively and are agreed with MOD. Steel for other facilities at RNAD Coulport is subject to quality control to ensure compliance with British Standard and contract specifications.

  Wath Recycling Company
  Mr. Hardy
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will request the Wath Recycling Company to send the consignment of toxic waste which it has held for almost two and a half years to the same company which has dealt with that part of the consignment which was held by British Rail.

  Mr. Baldry
  As the hon. Member knows, we have been actively seeking an appropriate solution to this problem for two years and this has included requests to Wath Recycling to consider disposal methods such as that used by British Rail. However the fate of the waste at Wath now appears to depend firmly upon the outcome of current court action in the United States.

  Thamesmead
  Mr. Cartwright
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he has received the report of the inspector presiding over the public inquiry into the proposed development of Thamesmead town centre; and when he expects to announce his decision on the planning application.

  Mr. Yeo
  The report has only just been received. It is hoped to issue a decision shortly.

  Uniform Business Rate
  Mr. David Howell
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how many appeals against uniform business rate assessments are currently outstanding; what is the average length of time since outstanding appeals were lodged; and what rate of interest is being paid on monies returned to businesses where appeals have been successful.

  Mr. Portillo
  At 30 September there were 673,237 outstanding appeals concerning non-domestic rates in England and Wales. A total of 91,074 appeals had been settled by the same date. Information on the average length of time since outstanding appeals were lodged is not available, but approximately 630,000 appeals were made in the initial period for challenging 1 April 1990 values which expired on 30 September 1990; some 300,000 of these were received just before the final deadline. Valuation officers have six months to deal with cases before referring unresolved disputes to the valuation and community charge tribunals. The interest rate applied to overpayments arising from successful appeals is 14 per cent. for 1990–91 and 12 per cent. for 1991–92.

  Private Security Firms
  Mr. George
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will list the number of private security firms currently employed by his Department, the number of employees for each firm on the contract, the total value of each contract and the total value of all contracts for each financial year since 1984–85.

  Mr. Heseltine
  The number of security firms currently employed by my Department is six. The number of employees used at each location can vary from week to week depending on circumstances. For this reason contract values can also vary. The figures given for 1991–92 are therefore estimated.

  Year

  Annual contract value (£)

  Number of employees

  1984–85

  18,000

  5

  57,556

  7

  16,188

  1

  Total

  91,744

  1985–86

  56,000

  8

  20,000

  5

  57,556

  7

  16,917

  1

  187,044

  21

  Total

  337,517

  1986–87

  64,000

  8

  21,000

  5

  60,434

  7

  11,568

  1

  195,224

  21

  Total

  352,226

  1987–88

  72,000

  8

  21,000

  5

  76,000

  7

  65,864

  7

  12,048

  1

  239,549

  25

  Total

  486,461

  483

  Year

  Annual contract value (£)

  Number of employees

  1988–89

  80,000

  8

  22,600

  5

  76,000

  7

  65,864

  7

  13,169

  1

  351,644

  25

  Total

  609,227

  1989–90

  88,000

  8

  23,700

  5

  76,000

  7

  89,856

  7

  13,987

  1

  369,070

  24

  Total

  660,613

  1990–91

  112,000

  8

  24,900

  5

  80,000

  7

  60,000

  15

  130,678

  7

  16,320

  1

  430,597

  27

  Total

  854,495

  1991–92

  125,000

  9

  16,000

  2

  88,000

  7

  67,000

  15

  138,331

  7

  34,792

  1

  452,040

  33

  Total

  921,163

  Community Charge
  Mr. Cartwright
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will set out the sums included for other adjustments in the 1991–92 community charge accounts of each of the London borough councils.

  Mr. Key
  I refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Newham, South (Mr. Spearing) on 21 June 1991,Official Report column 329.

  Global Warming
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will list in the Official Report the research activities sponsored by his Department into global warming; and what information he has regarding scientific and policy research currently under way by (a) non-governmental organisations and (b) university and polytechnic research departments into ways of predicting and mitigating the greenhouse effect.

  Mr. Baldry
  Full details of every research project commissioned under the Department's global atmosphere research programme this year are currently being collected together in a single report which I expect to be placed in the Library of the House next month. The largest single project is the climate prediction programme at the Hadley Centre, Bracknell, which includes a specific requirement to liaise and co-ordinate with all relevant research both in the United Kingdom and abroad. There are in addition some 484
  specific projects on the impacts of climate upon water resources, and building and construction sponsored in other DOE programmes.

  My Department represents relevant research interests and responsibilities of the Government on the inter-agency council for global environmental change which published its first report on the United Kingdom research framework this year. Copies have been placed in the Library of the House. My Department is represented on the relevant research councils and received many reports and documents on research carried out by non-governmental organisations, at higher education institutes and by independent research institutes and organisations.

  Toronto Environmental Declaration
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment when Her Majesty's Government received a copy of the Toronto declaration on world cities and their environment, concluded at the congress of municipal leaders on 28 August; and if he has taken any steps to respond to the appeals made to national Governments in resolution 15, resolution 22 and resolution 23.

  Mr. Baldry
  My Department has seen a copy of the "Toronto Declaration", which appears to be designed as an input to the United Nations conference on development and the environment, to be held in Brazil in June 1992. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has already announced that he hopes to attend, and the Government are participating actively in the preparatory work.

  UN Environmental Conference
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what input was made by his Department to the seminar sponsored by UNEP-UK on the nongovernmental organisations' agenda for the 1992 United Nations conference on environment and development, held in London on 9 and 10 October; and what new information was collected by his Department as a result of its involvement in the seminar.

  Mr. Baldry
  The seminar was part of a programme, organised by UNEP-UK and funded by the Department of the Environment, aimed at focusing the views and aspirations of the non-governmental community on the 1992 conference. In his summing up of the proceedings the Director General of Environmental Protection undertook that the Department would study the conclusions of the various working groups as soon as written versions were available.

  Dry Cleaning
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what Government-sponsored research has been undertaken into the use of perchloroethylene in the dry cleaning process.

  Mr. Baldry
  I am aware of the following relevant research which has been or is being undertaken by Government Departments.

  The Building Research Establishment is preparing an environmental hazard assessment document on perchloroethylene—dry cleaning is covered as a source of release into the environment—as part of my Department's research programme. This will he published in due course.
  485
  The Department of Trade and Industry published a report in 1990 entitled "Chlorinated solvent cleaning—the impact of environmental and regulatory control" by Coopers and Lybrand Deloitte.

  The Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food is curently surveying perchloroethylene levels in food purchased from shops near to dry cleaning establishments. This work was initiated after reports appeared in the literature which indicated that there was a possibility of food contamination via this route. The results of this survey will be published in the normal way when they become available.

  In addition there is a requirement to monitor drinking water levels of perchloroethylene. Levels must not exceed 10. μg/litre on an annual basis.

  Nuclear Power
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what is his policy towards the proposal put forward by the Swedish Ministry of the Environment to the IAEA-sponsored conference on the safety of nuclear power; strategy for the future, that a legally binding international convention on nuclear waste management and final disposal safety be established.

  Mr. Baldry
  The IAEA-sponsored conference discussed the Swedish proposal and concluded that the IAEA should develop international safety objectives for use by participating member states with regard to the implementation of waste management and disposal. My officials will be working with the IAEA to help develop such objectives, and to discuss the content of a possible convention.

  Environmental Management
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will arrange for a subscription to be taken out by his departmental library to the new bulletin of the United Kingdom Institute of Ecology and Environmental Management.

  Mr. Heseltine
  The Library has it under consideration.

  Waste Recycling
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will list the kerbside recycling schemes his Department is monitoring; what form the monitoring is taking; when he expects the results; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Baldry
  The Government are conducting a three-year programme, which is currently monitoring schemes in Sheffield, Adur. Leeds and Cardiff. The programme, which will encompass other kerbside collection schemes and schemes using "bring" systems of recycling collection, is designed to provide information and advice on the operation of source separation schemes for recovering recyclable materials from household waste. It will provide an impartial assessment of United Kingdom recycling schemes by studying such factors as recovery rates, costs, and inputs into existing waste management strategies and will compare and evaluate the schemes to identify the best options for increasing recycling rates.

  As part of this monitoring programme, a report on the first two years of the Sheffield recycling city experiment will be published during November.

  Sewage Treatment
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment (1) if he will estimate what volume of sewage currently receives(a) primary, (b) secondary and (c) tertiary treatment before being discharged at coastal outfalls;

  (2) if he will estimate how many sea outfalls less than 500 m long discharge sewage with only primary treatment;

  (3) if he will list the sea outfalls for sewage in England and Wales which are less than 500 m long.

  Mr. Baldry
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Nuclear Waste
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will list the United Kingdom sites authorised to discharge liquid radioactive waste into drainage systems which may include public sewers; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Baldry
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for The Environment how much is being spent in the current financial year on research into the safe disposal of nuclear waste by(a) Nirex and (b) each of the other member nations of the International Atomic Energy Agency.

  Mr. Baldry
  I am informed that UK Nirex Ltd plan to spend about £40 million in the 1991–92 financial year on geological investigations and other safety related research. The separate information requested for each member nation of the International Atomic Energy Agency is not readily available.

  Aluminium Pollution
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will list the supply zones in which he has consented to relax the standard for aluminium set in water regulations.

  Mr. Baldry
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Water Pollution
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will list, for the latest available 12-month period, incidents in which either the maximum admissible concentration or minimum required concentration were breached for each substance covered by EC directive 80/778 identifying the source of the water in each case.

  Mr. Baldry
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Planning Inspectorate
  Mr. Fearn
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will publish details of the proposed restructuring of the planning inspectorate.

  Mr. Yeo
  The framework document for the planning inspectorate agency will, as usual, be published. I shall ensure that a copy is placed in the Library.

  Right to Buy
  Mr. Fearn
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment whether service for right-to-buy properties should be apportioned to the housing revenue account or the general fund.
  487
  Mr. Yeo
  It is for local authorities to determine the precise apportionment of costs between the housing revenue account and other accounts in the light of the requirements of the Local Government and Housing Act 1989, and proper accounting practices. Section 3 of part III of schedule 4 to the Act recognises that, in certain circumstances, facilities provided by local housing authorities should he met by a contribution from other accounts.

  Channel Tunnel Rail link
  Mr. Warren
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment (1) what consultations will take place with Kent and Essex interests to facilitate the route for the channel tunnel rail link announced by the Secretary of State for Transport on 14 October;

  (2) if he will specify the time scale for the granting of planning permission for the construction of the approved channel tunnel rail link announced by the Secretary of State for Transport on 14 October.

  Mr. Yeo
  I will write to my hon. Friend.

  Toxic Waste Imports
  Mr. Murphy
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will list those ports in the United Kingdom which receive imports of toxic waste.

  Mr. Baldry
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Housing Action Trusts
  Ms. Gordon
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he considers an estate of 1,200 units large enough for a viable housing action trust.

  Mr. Yeo
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  "Environment in Trust"
  Mr. Gerald Bowden
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment when the next edition of the "Environment in Trust" leaflets will be available.

  Mr. Trippier
  I launched the second edition of these leaflets today. Copies will be placed in the Library and further copies will be available from my Department.

  Hedgerows
  Mr. Robert B. Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will make a statement about the protection of hedgerows.

  Mr. Baldry
  The Government's commitment to protecting key hedgerows was demonstrated in our White Paper—"This Common Inheritance". In December we issued a consultation paper and in July I announced revised proposals for helping to conserve and enhance this important feature of the countryside. In parallel we have also been seeking to update and improve our information. I am now able to announce the results of new studies showing the current stock of hedgerows in Great Britain.

  These derive from the "Countryside Survey 1990", a survey of land cover in Great Britain, funded jointly by the Department of the Environment and the Natural Environment Research Council. The survey was conducted to rigorous scientific and statistical standards and a
  488
  report—prepared by the Institute of Terrestrial Ecology —detailing the main findings on hedgerows has been lodged in the Library of the House.

  In 1984 there was a total length of 410,000 km of hedgerows in England. By 1990 some 39,000 km—10 per cent.—of hedgerows had been removed, excluding losses from built development.

  However, a key finding from the report is the dramatic increase in new planting: almost 20,000 km in England during that period. This trend has been encouraged by grants to farmers from MAFF—first introduced in 1973. In the period 1978–84, the rate of planting in England averaged 530 km per annum, but the new survey shows that in the last six years the rate increased sixfold—to 3,300 km per annum. This is a positive development, and means that farmers and landowners are now replacing a substantial part of the total of hedgerows removed annually.

  Corresponding figures for Wales show a broadly similar pattern. From a total hedgerow stock of 71,000 km a total of 6,800 km of hedgerows were removed in 1984–90; but during the same period 3,400 km were created.

  But there is no room for complacency. Despite the Government's success in stimulating an increased rate of planting, there' has been a nett removal of hedgerows—3,300 km per annum in England between 1984–90; in Wales 600 km per annum.

  The survey also shows a decline in the quality of some hedgerows. For the first time, figures are available on losses caused by lack of long-term management, which confirm that this process—rather than deliberate removal —is the main factor putting hedgerows at risk.

  In England. in the six years to 1990, 78,000 km of hedgerows declined in quality to the extent that they could no longer be classed as true hedgerows. This was to some extent offset by some 18,000 km of formerly derelict hedgerows brought back into active management. In Wales the equivalent figures are 17,000 km and 3,000 km respectively. This suggests that lack of management has produced a countryside in which derelict hedgerows composed of trees or isolated shrubs have become increasingly common. Though there can be some environmental benefits from leaving hedgerows uncut for a certain period of time, the eventual result of protracted management neglect is hedgerow loss. In addition, within the remaining stock there are also signs of deterioration.

  Taking these losses from poor management into account, the nett loss of hedgerows in England from all causes during the period 1984–90 totalled 85,000 km—Wales 18,000 km—or 21 per cent. of the total hedgerow stock—Wales 25 per cent.

  These findings emphasise the vital importance of taking urgent steps to promote improved management. In my recent statement I therefore announced that I would be introducing a new incentives scheme to this end. These payments will be in addition to those already offered by MAFF and the other Agriculture Departments. The aim will be to encourage the rejuvenation of hedgerows—bringing them back into positive management by making payments to assist with coppicing, laying and other environmentally beneficial works.

  We are already in discussion with the Countryside Commission and others on ways in which such a scheme could be implemented and I hope to make a further statement as soon as possible.
  489
  In Wales the Welsh Office will be considering proposals from the Countryside Council for Wales on introducing their own scheme to provide incentives for hedgerow management, as part of their plans for promoting countryside stewardship.

  "Policy Appraisal and the Environment"
  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how long it took his Department to prepare the advice manual for Government Departments, "Policy Appraisal and the Environment"; how many civil servants were involved in its preparation; and whether any consultants were used in the research and preparation of the manual.

  Mr. Heseltine
  The commitment to prepare the guide "Policy Appraisal and the Environment" was contained in "This Common Inheritance" (Cmnd 1200), published in September 1990, and the guide appeared on 23 September 1991. Consultants carried out preliminary research into existing practices and helped shape the guidance. Three civil servants wrote the guide, although others, in a number of departments, were consulted during its preparation.

  Urban Development Corporation
  Mr. Blunkett
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment, pursuant to his answer of 1 February,Official Report, column 661, with regard to the number of jobs created in each urban development corporation area, if he will update the table to include information to March; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Portillo
  [pursuant to his reply, 21 May 1991, c. 405]: The Department has recently carried out an exercise to ensure that these figures are calculated on a consistent basis in all UDCs. The revised figures for the total of permanent jobs created in or attracted to urban development corporation areas, net of losses, are given in the table.

  UDC

  Net gain in jobs to March 1991 number

  Black Country

  2,600

  Bristol

  4,000

  Central Manchester

  950

  Leeds

  5,862

  London Docklands

  26,000

  Merseyside

  4,626

  Sheffield

  7,580

  Teesside

  4,650

  Trafford Park

  2,557

  Tyne and Wear

  3,169

  Total

  61,994

  Student Accommodation
  Mr. Andrew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what meetings he has held with the Committee of Vice-Chancellors and Principals, the Committee of Directors of Polytechnics, the Standing Conference of Principals, and the National Union of Students to discuss the levying of council tax on student accommodation; and when he next plans to meet these bodies to discuss the council tax.
  490
  Mr. Key
  [holding answer 21 October 1991]: None. Officials will shortly be responding to a request from the Committee of Vice-Chancellors and Principals to meet officers of the CVCP, the Committee of Directors of Polytechnics, the Standing Conference of Principals and the Conference of Scottish Centrally Funded Colleges.

  World Summit for Children
  Miss Lestor
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if his Department has completed the review of its policies for inclusion in the progress report on action in the areas targeted by the World Summit for Children's declaration and plan of action; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Heseltine
  [holding answer 21 October 1991]: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office is co-ordinating an exercise among all interested Whitehall Departments in order to prepare the United Kingdom's progress report on action in the areas targeted by the World Summit for Children's declaration and plan of action. The aim is to submit this to the UNICEF secretariat by the end of this year.

  Environment Council
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement on the outcome of the European Community Environment Council meeting on 1 October in Luxembourg.

  Mr. Trippier
  [holding answer 21 October 1991]: I will write to the hon. Member.

  Standard Spending Assessment
  Ms. Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if, when reviewing his formula for determining the standard spending assessment, he will ensure that that element which takes account of the cost of providing for visitors is based on up-to-date data; and if he will further review that data to take account of the number of overseas visitors and day trips.

  Mr. Key
  [holding answer 18 October 1991]: I will write to the hon. Member.

  Water Quality
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement on the progress made to date by the European Committee for Standardisation (CEN) in its programme to harmonise water quality standards.

  Mr. Baldry
  [holding answer 18 October 1991]: I will write to the hon. Member.

EDUCATION AND SCIENCE

  Sex Education
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what training exists for(a) teachers, (b) parents and (c) governors in designing and evaluating appropriate sex education programmes in their schools.
  491
  Mr. Atkins
  This is a matter for determination at local level in the light of local needs and circumstances. Training provided to teachers and governors, including parent governors, in relation to sex education is eligible for specific grant support under the Government's grants for education support and training programme.

  Local History
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of Stale for Education and Science (1) what initiatives he intends to take to encourage the teaching of local history in primary and secondary schools in England;

  (2) what initiatives he intends to take to encourage primary and secondary schools in England to create awareness in the cultural heritage which is relevant to the localities in which schools are located.

  Mr. Eggar
  Within the provisions of national curriculum history, opportunities exist at each key stage for pupils to study local history from a variety of perspectives, including the cultural heritage of their localities.

  Postgraduate Courses (France)
  Mr. Straw
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether any financial assistance is available from public funds, including EC sources, to provide grants to United Kingdom nationals taking postgraduate courses at universities in France.

  Mr. Kenneth Clarke
  The provision of awards from public funds for United Kingdom nationals undertaking postgraduate courses at universities in France is al the discretion of the award-making bodies. Information is not held centrally on the number of postgraduate award-holders undertaking complete courses in France or whose courses at United Kingdom institutions involve a period of study in France. EC funding for United Kingdom postgraduate students studying in France is available in certain circumstances under the Erasmus programme and other schemes listed in the publication "Finance for Europe: A Guide to Grants and Loans from the European Community", copies of which are available in the Library.

  Local Management of Schools
  Mr. Alton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will make a statement on the local management of schools arrangements in Catholic primary schools in Liverpool which have separate infant and junior departments, but one governing body.

  Mr. Fallon
  It is for the LEA to decide whether a primary school with two departments should be regarded as one school or two. If a voluntary school which is so organised disputes the authority's view that it is a single school, it is open to the governors to apply to the Secretary of State for Education and Science for a division order under section 2 of the Education Act 1946.

  In its LMS scheme, Liverpool local education authority lists most of its primary schools, including all but two of its Catholic primary schools, as single schools. This means that such schools are allocated one school budget which is based primarily on the total number of pupils in both departments.

  Foundation for Sport and the Arts
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science, if he will make a statement on the establishment and operation of the Foundation for Sport and the Arts.

  Mr. Atkins
  The Foundation for Sport and the Arts is an independent discretionary trust. The cut of 2½ per cent. in pool betting duty included in this year's Finance Act will channel about £20 million a year into the foundation and a further £40 million or so will be contributed each year from funds collected by the pools promoters from their customers. Some two-thirds will be used for athletic sports or athletic games and the remainder for the benefit of the arts. The foundation was launched officially on 18 September.

  Science Policy
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many ministerial speeches he has made on science policy outside Parliament since he was appointed Secretary of State; and if he will list the details of each such speech.

  Mr. Kenneth Clarke
  I specifically addressed the Government's policy for science in my speech to the Association of Science Education on 7 January and have dealt with particular aspects of science policy on many other occasions: for example, in my speech to the Committee of Directors of Polytechnics on 17 September, in which I covered policy on the funding of academic research.

  I have also made a number of visits to scientific establishments since my appointment, most recently the British Geological Survey, and the MRC Institute of Hearing on 20 September.

  I keep in regular touch with the chairmen of the research councils and attended a meeting of the Advisory Board for the Research Councils on 18 September. Today I have meetings with representatives of the Royal Society and with the Astronomer Royal to discuss science policy.

  Private Security Firms
  Mr. George
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will list the number of private security firms currently employed by his Department, the number of employees for each firm on the contract, the total value of each contract and the total value of all contracts for each financial year since 1984–85.

  Mr. Atkins
  The Department currently employs two private security firms. The firm guarding our London premises employs a total of seven staff on our sites. The firm protecting our Darlington offices employs one guard.

  Based on 1990–91 financial year figures, the London contract is worth £120,061 per year, and the Darlington contract £32,600 per year.

  Security guards were first employed in Darlington on 1 November 1984, and in London on 1 December 1987. The value of all contracts for each financial year since 1984–85 are as follows:

  Darlington £

  London £

  Total £

  1984–85

  7,416

  —

  7,416

  1985–86

  22,987

  —

  22,987

  1986–87

  23,663

  —

  23,663

  493

  Darlington £

  London £

  Total £

  1987–88

  24,792

  4,265

  29,057

  1988–89

  28,273

  88,655

  116,928

  1989–90

  30,802

  109,974

  140,776

  1990–91

  32,640

  120,018

  152,658

  School Meals
  Mr. Fatchett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will set out, at 1978–79 prices, for each year since 1978–79, expenditure by each local education authority on the school meal service.

  Mr. Fallon
  The readily available information is shown in the table. The latest year for which information on actual expenditure is available is 1989–90. Information for earlier years could be provided only at disproportionate cost.

  Net recurrent expenditure1 on school meals and milk2, 1989–90

  LEA

  Net recurrent expenditure £000

  Barking

  1,036

  Barnet

  1,511

  Bexley

  1,269

  Brent

  2,581

  Bromley

  1,472

  Croydon

  1,615

  Ealing

  4,695

  Enfield

  1,983

  Haringey

  n/a

  Harrow

  815

  Havering

  1,602

  Hillingdon

  2,105

  Hounslow

  n/a

  Kingston-upon-Thames

  1,211

  Merton

  543

  Newham

  2,927

  Redbridge

  1,448

  Richmond upon Thames

  939

  Sutton

  1,283

  Waltham Forest

  2,137

  ILEA

  39,400

  Birmingham

  11,276

  Coventry

  2,971

  Dudley

  3,174

  Sandwell

  3,511

  Solihull

  1,274

  Walsall

  4,966

  Wolverhampton

  2,598

  Knowsley

  4,307

  Liverpool

  7,354

  St. Helens

  1,824

  Sefton

  3,135

  Wirral

  3,419

  Bolton

  3,445

  Bury

  1,265

  Manchester

  n/a

  Oldham

  215

  Rochdale

  2,567

  Salford

  2,967

  Stockport

  2,020

  Tameside

  1,941

  Trafford

  1,539

  Wigan

  2,596

  Barnsley

  2,873

  Doncaster

  3,717

  Rotherham

  1,549

  Sheffield

  4,054

  Bradford

  6,221

  Calderdale

  1,690

  Kirklees

  4,159

  Leeds

  6,381

  Wakefield

  n/a

  494

  LEA

  Net recurrent expenditure £000

  Gateshead

  1,902

  Newcastle Upon Tyne

  4,663

  North Tyneside

  n/a

  South Tyneside

  1,864

  Sunderland

  2,690

  Avon

  8,516

  Bedfordshire

  4,370

  Berkshire

  2,010

  Buckinghamshire

  2,186

  Cambridgeshire

  2,679

  Cheshire

  6,172

  Cleveland

  9,051

  Cornwall

  2,423

  Cumbria

  3,148

  Derbyshire

  14,912

  Devon

  7,785

  Dorset

  1,642

  Durham

  7,503

  East Sussex

  4,464

  Essex

  6,579

  Gloucestershire

  2,844

  Hampshire

  6,779

  Herefordshire and Worcestershire

  1,393

  Hertfordshire

  4,950

  Humberside

  9,884

  Isle of Wight

  749

  Isles of Scilly

  22

  Kent

  6,327

  Lancashire

  12,795

  Leicestershire

  5,977

  Lincolnshire

  1,978

  Norfolk

  4,031

  North Yorkshire

  4,538

  Northamptonshire

  3,903

  Northumberland

  3,552

  Nottinghamshire

  10,312

  Oxfordshire

  2,445

  Shropshire

  3,331

  Somerset

  3,115

  Staffordshire

  4,887

  Suffolk

  1,402

  Surrey

  2,689

  Warwickshire

  3,284

  West Sussex

  2,589

  Wiltshire

  3,625

  Notes:

  1 Recurrent expenditure, less income from paid meals and from EC grants, at 1989–90 prices.

  2 Figures for expenditure on school meals and school milk are not collected separately.

  3 n/a indicates that a spending return was not received from the authority.

  Open University
  Mr. Andrew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what criteria he employed in deciding(a) to publish the departmental review of the Open university and (b) not to publish the departmental review of the long-term residential colleges; and if he will now publish the latter.

  Mr. Alan Howarth
  The review of the Open university was conducted jointly by the Department and the university. The university wished to publish the report of the review and my right hon. and learned Friend agreed. The report of the review of the long-term residential colleges took the form of advice from officials to Ministers: by convention such advice is not made public.

  Administration Expenditure
  Mr. Andrew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will provide a breakdown of the increase in his Department's expenditure on administration from £68 million in the year 1988–89 to a planned £98 million in the year 1991–92, as stated in table 11·1 of the Department of Education and Science's departmental report, -The Government's Expenditure Plans 1991–92 to 1993–94".

  Mr. Atkins
  The plans as shown provide for a real-term increase of some 18 per cent. in administration costs between 1988–89 and 1991–92. Of that, more than one third is taken up by increased accommodation costs, principally in relation to our new London headquarters. Over the same period, the Department's staff numbers have increased by some 5 per cent. in response to implementation of the Education Reform Act 1988 and other new Government policies: in addition the Department has taken on responsibility for sport and recreation, which transferred from the Department of Environment with effect from December 1990.

  HMI Reports
  Ms. Armstrong
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will list those Her Majesty's inspectorate reports which are finished, but not yet published.

  Mr. Eggar
  A list of HMI reports awaiting publication has been placed in the Library.

  Ms. Armstrong
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is the average length of time he takes to consider Her Majesty's inspectorate reports before publication.

  Mr. Eggar
  This information is not available.

  Language in the National Curriculum
  Ms. Armstrong
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science (1) when he received the inspection report from Her Majesty's inspectorate on the language in the national curriculum project;

  (2) when he proposes to publish the inspection report from Her Majesty's inspectorate on the language in the national curriculum project.

  Mr. Eggar
  The HMI report referred to is an interim document intended for internal use. It has not yet been seen by my right hon. and learned Friend and will not be published.

  Ms. Armstrong
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science when Her Majesty's inspectorate inspected the language in the national curriculum project; how many of her Majesty's inspectorate were involved; and how many days the inspection took.

  Mr. Eggar
  The inspection was carried out over the autumn term 1990 and the spring term 1991. Five HMIs were involved for a total of 65 days.

  County Hall
  Miss Hoey
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what meetings or discussions his officials have had with any officials of the London School of Economics to discuss their interest in the use of county hall.
  496
  Mr. Alan Howarth
  My right hon. Friend and I meet heads of the schools and colleges of London university, including the director of the London School of Economics and Political Science, from time to time. The Department's officials have had no recent meetings or discussions with the London School of Economics and Political Science.

  Schools (Expenditure)
  Mr. Blunkett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will set out the methods used for auditing and monitoring expenditure in opt-out and grant-maintained schools.

  Mr. Eggar
  Monitoring of grant-maintained schools is carried out continuously by the Department, with emphasis on particular returns each school must submit monthly, quarterly and annually. Schools must appoint external auditors under arrangements laid down by the Department. The auditors, who may be drawn from the district arm of the Audit Commission, or from private sector accountants, are required annually to certify that, inter alia, grants paid to a school have been properly applied for the purposes intended. The National Audit Office also has right of access to grant-maintained schools.

  National Curriculum
  Mr. Pawsey
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he intends to publish for consultation the draft orders with revised attainment targets and programmes of study for mathematics and science in the national curriculum.

  Mr. Kenneth Clarke
  I shall on Thursday 24 October publish for consultation draft orders with associated documents setting out revised attainment targets and programmes of study for mathematics and science in the national curriculum for pupils aged five to 16, as I am required to do by section 20(5) of the Education Reform Act 1988. Copies will be placed in the Library.

  The draft orders have been prepared following advice to me from the National Curriculum Council, in the light of its consultations on the proposals made by me and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales. I am most grateful to the council for its advice.

  As the basis for the next stage of statutory consultation, I have accepted the council's recommendations for revised attainment targets for both subjects. In mathematics. those recommendations are an endorsement of my proposals, with some improvements in detail. In the case of science, the National Curriculum Council has recommended a further step in the direction of simplifying the order: that the number of attainment targets should be further reduced from five to four. I accept this advice: it does not alter the science curriculum, which will remain in all essentials the same as the content of the programmes of study in the present science order.

  I also accept the council's recommended statements of attainment and programmes of study for mathematics and science, subject to some detailed changes and to the restoration of some material relating to Earth science, which formed part of our proposals.

  The period for consultation on the draft orders will end on 28 November 1991. I intend to make the final order in December 1991 in good time for schools to prepare for the introduction of the new attainment targets and programmes of study in the autumn of 1992.

THE ARTS

  Poetry
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Minister for the Arts what proportion of his annual budget is spent on poetry.

  Mr. Renton
  In the current financial year I estimate that about £1·5 million will be spent on poetry. This figure comprises the grants allocated by the English regional arts boards and the Scottish and Welsh arts councils, as well as by the Arts Council of Great Britain. It represents 0·77 per cent. of the Government's 1991–92 grant-in-aid of £194·2 million to the Arts Council.

  Welsh Arts Council
  Mr. Murphy
  To ask the Minister for the Arts if he plans to increase funding to the Welsh Arts Council.

  Mr. Renton
  The Welsh Arts Council is funded from the Government's overall grant-in-aid to the Arts Council of Great Britain on the basis of a formula that has been in operation for many years. I share the view of the arts councils in London and Cardiff that Wales is well served by this arrangement. This year's allocation of £11 million is a 12·25 per cent. increase over last year—well in advance of inflation.

CIVIL SERVICE

  Private Security Firms
  Mr. George
  To ask the Minister for the Civil Service if he will list the number of private security firms currently employed by his Department, the number of employees for each firm on the contract, the total value of each contract and the total value of all contracts for each financial year since 1984–85.

  Mr. Renton
  The Cabinet Office currently employs one private security firm supplying eight employees on two contracts. The total value of the contracts for 1991–92 is £188,000. Figures for previous financial years are available from 1985–86 and are as follows—

  £

  1985–86

  61,609

  1986–87

  64,831

  1987–88

  77,534

  1988–89

  69,692

  1989–90

  76,924

  1990–91

  127,216

  Civil Service (Women)
  Mr. Charles Wardle
  To ask the Minister for the Civil Service if he will make a statement on progress towards achieving equality of opportunity for women staff in the Civil Service.

  Mr. Renton
  A great deal has been achieved. A report on progress during 1990–91 in increasing equality of opportunity for women in the civil service will be published on 28 October. Copies will be placed in the Library of the House.

  War Service
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Minister for the Civil Service what representations he has received concerning the 1950 cut-off limit for world war 2 active service to be taken into account for the calculation of public service pensions for those who entered the civil service or equivalent public service organisations subsequent to world war 2.

  Mrs. Gillian Shephard
  I have been asked to reply.

  The Government receive representations from time to time suggesting relaxations in this aspect of the rules governing public service pension schemes. The cut-off date of 30 June 1950 was established for new entrants to the civil service by the Superannuation (War Service) (End of Period) Order 1950—SI 1950 No 962. This cut-off date applies similarly to those who entered other public services after the war.

NATIONAL FINANCE

  Taxation
  Mr. Jopling
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what plans he has to compensate taxpayers in the event of delays in repaying claims to them, as a result of the extra claims stemming from the move to independent taxation for husbands and wives.

  Mr. Norman Lamont
  The normal rules for payment of interest on overpaid tax will apply.

  The Inland Revenue is setting up new offices around the country specifically to deal with the very substantial increase in claims for repayment of tax arising from independent taxation and the changes in the taxation of bank and building society interest. Estimates of the number of claimants are inevitably uncertain but the measures taken should ensure that repayment claims are processed with the minimum possible delay.

  Mr. Butler
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is his estimate of the number of people who have been reclassified by the Inland Revenue from schedule D to schedule E status since 1979.

  Mr. Maude
  I regret there is insufficient information available centrally to enable a reliable estimate to be made.

  Childcare
  Sir David Steel
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what plans he has to introduce(a) tax relief on childminding costs and (b) non-taxable childcare vouchers.

  Mr. Norman Lamont
  The Government continually keep under review the tax arrangements for parents with young children, but have no such plans at present.

  Farming
  Mr. Pawsey
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will publish a table showing the level of financial support for the farming industry alongside that for other major industries.

  Mr. Mellor
  It is not possible to give a fine industrial breakdown because many support schemes are available
  499
  to a wide range of industries. The table shows direct financial support to the private sector by broad industrial group.

  Industry

  Government financial support (£ million)

  Contribution of industry to GDP (£ million)

  Government support as a percentage of GDP contribution

  Energy and water

  196

  24,334

  0·8

  Agriculture, forestry and fishing

  1,718

  7,102

  24·2

  Mining, manufacturing and construction

  582

  143,080

  0·4

  Transport and communication

  1,087

  34,031

  3·2

  Source: Tables 2.1 and 9.4 of UK National Accounts 1991

  Note: The table gives the 1990–91 estimated outturn for general Government expenditure by function. The expenditure includes subsidies and capital grants to the private sector, but excludes other elements of support such as the provision of subsidised Government services and trade and tariff protection.

  Ambulance Car Volunteers
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will seek to amend the law to allow tax exemption for ambulance car volunteers on their mileage allowance.

  Mr. Maude
  The position in law is that motor mileage allowances paid to individuals, whether employees or volunteers, who use a car on health service business are only liable to income tax if the allowances exceed the cost of running and maintaining the car for health service driving and so result in a profit.

  I am not persuaded that there is a case for amending the law to exempt volunteer drivers from tax on any profits on their mileage allowances. But I am aware that there has been some concern about the recent introduction of arrangements for taxing any profit on these allowances.

  The introduction of the new arrangements will therefore by phased in gradually over a number of years. Only one quarter of the profit element for the period from 6 October 1991 to 5 April 1992 and for 1992–93 will be taxed; one half of the profit will he taxed for 1993–94; and three quarters of the profit will he taxed for 1994–95. Tax will not be payable on the full amount of the profit element until 1995–96.

  The Government greatly appreciate the work done by so many volunteer drivers, as do the communities they serve.

  I hope that this gradual phasing-in of the arrangements will meet the concern that has been expressed.

  Deeds of Covenant
  Sir David Steel
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he has given further consideration to simplifying the procedures for completing a deed of covenant.

  Mr. Norman Lamont
  I assume the right hon. Member has in mind tax relief on charitable covenants. On Budget day last year we authorised the Inland Revenue to publish guidance, including simple model forms of covenant, to help charities and individuals making charitable covenants to get it right for tax. Copies can be obtained from the Inland Revenue claims brach offices in Bootle and Edinburgh which deal with the tax affairs of charities. Copies are also available in the Library.
  500
  We are always ready to consider any further improvements which can be made in this area. However a deed of covenant is a legal document, not a tax form, and must meet the requirements of general, non-tax, law if it is to be valid. If the right hon. Member has in mind the simplification of general law procedures for making deeds, that is a matter for my right hon. Friends the Lord Chancellor and the Secretary of State for Scotland.

  Tax Exempt Special Savings Accounts
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer why the TESSA regulations require both the collection of the date of birth and the national insurance number; whether he has any plans to modify the regulations to reduce the amount of personal data collected; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Maude
  Only individuals aged 18 or over may open a TESSA. and each may have only one TESSA at a time. The date of birth and the national insurance number are required on the TESSA application form to enable the Inland Revenue to check that the TESSA exemption is properly given. The information required from TESSA applicants has been kept to a minimum, and I have no plans to change it.

  Bloodstock
  Sir David Steel
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, what steps Her Majesty's Government have taken to achieve a uniform bloodstock value added tax rate throughout the Community.

  Mr. Norman Lamont
  In an effort to achieve a fair competitive climate within the Community for the British bloodstock industry, the Government have been and are continuing to press the European Commission to take action to prevent the potential distortion of competition which could arise because of the disparity in VAT rates on bloodstock between the UK, Ireland and France.

  We have authorised discussions between officials and industry representatives about the possible introduction in the UK of an agricultural flat rate scheme. This scheme could put farmer/breeders on a par with their counterparts in other member states who already operate similar schemes, which include the breeding and rearing of thoroughbred horses.

  The Government, officials and industry representatives will continue to work very closely together to achieve a level playing field for the British bloodstock industry.

  VAT
  Mr. Allason
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many businesses in Torbay deregistered for value added tax in the most recent 12-month period for which figures are available.

  Mrs. Gillian Shephard
  The local VAT office at Exeter covers areas in addition to Torbay. A total of 3,292 deregistrations were processed by that office in the year to 30 September 1991.

  Sir John Farr
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make it his policy to equalise the conditions under which value added tax becomes payable on repairs as between new purchasers of former council houses and tenants of council houses.
  501
  Mrs. Gillian Shephard
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide an answer before Prorogation. Therefore, I shall write to my hon. Friend and place a copy of the letter in the Library.

  Private Security Firms
  Mr. George
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will list the number of private security firms currently employed by his Department, the number of employees for each firm on the contract, the total value of each contract and the total value of all contracts for each financial year since 1984–85.

  Mrs. Gillian Shephard
  There are no private security firms employed by my Department.

  Environmental Protection
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what matters in regard to the protection of the environment were discussed at the International Monetary Fund annual meeting and the meeting of G7 Finance Ministers recently held in Bangkok.

  Mr. Maples
  Protection of the environment was one of many issues discussed at a series of recent meetings in Bangkok. The development committee of the World bank and IMF, which met on 14 October, agreed that actions to protect the environment were essential to both the priority development objectives for the nineties: the reduction of poverty and the achievement of sustainable growth. My right hon. Friend's speech noted that industrial and developing countries alike have a collective responsibility for our environment and that global action is required. He expressed strong support for the global environment facility as the channel through which common interest in this issue can be addressed.

  Property Transactions
  Mr. Fearn
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many property transactions have taken place each month in the current year.

  Mr. Maude
  The information requested is in the following table.

  Number of property transactions

  (Thousands)

  1991

  England and Wales

  Northern Ireland

  January

  126

  3

  February

  93

  3

  March

  94

  3

  April

  109

  3

  May

  109

  3

  June

  107

  3

  July

  129

  3

  August

  111

  3

  September

  112

  3

  Comparable information for Scotland is not available. Data for England and Wales are published monthly in table 41 of "Economic Trends", and are available via the CSO database.

  City Hospital, Nottingham
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what(a) loans, (b) debts, (c) interest repayments and (d) other outstanding financial items there are between the City hospital, Nottingham, and the Treasury.

  Mr. Mellor
  None.

  Fraudulent Claims
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) how many persons have been successfuly prosecuted for fraudulent tax claims and fraudulent social security claims in the latest year(a) in England and Wales, (b) in the most appropriate area to the east midlands and (c) in the most appropriate area to Nottingham, for which figures are available;

  (2) how much money has been lost in the latest year for which comparable figures are available as a result of fraudulent tax claims and fraudulent social security claims.

  Mr. Maude
  I regret that it has not been possible to provide an answer before Prorogation. Therefore, I shall write to the hon. Member and place a copy of the letter in the Library.

  Local Government Finance
  Mr. Speller
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will authorise district councils to use funds accumulated from the sale of property to build houses and flats for sale and rent to the local community.

  Mr. Yeo
  I have been asked to reply.

  I will write to my hon. Friend.

  Tax Fraud
  Mr. Rooney
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many staff in the Inland Revenue numerically and proportionately are engaged in fraud detection.

  Mr. Maude
  [holding answer 21 October 1991]: In the year to 31 March 1991, some 3,200 Inland Revenue staff were employed on the detection and investigation of tax evasion, equivalent to 5·2 per cent. of total staff. It is not possible to identify separately the figures relating to fraud detection.

  Privatisation
  Mr. Nellist
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the total amount, at October 1991 prices, which has been raised from privatisation issues of shares since May 1979.

  Mr. Maude
  [holding answer 21 October 1991]: Total privatisation proceeds from May 1979 to end 1990–91 are £43 billion in September 1991 prices.

  British Telecom
  Ms. Mowlam
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many applications for the British Telecom share offer have been received by each of the eight retail financial institutions.

  Mr. Maude
  [holding answer 21 October 1991]: The number of individuals who have selected each of the eight

  503
  shareshops in registering an interest in applying for shares in the forthcoming BT share sale will be announced after the end of the registration period in the second half of November.

  Ms. Mowlam
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what criteria were applied in the selection of each of the eight retail financial institutions chosen to participate in the British Telecom second share flotation.

  Mr. Maude
  [holding answer 21 October 1991]: A number of presentations were received from private sector bodies in response to the Chancellor's invitation in his budget speech to make proposals for cheap and accessible means for individuals to buy and sell shares in the secondary market. From these, the Government selected eight organisations equipped to undertake, at relatively short notice, the work arising on the BT sale and providing a choice of financial institutions familiar to the public.

  Bank of Credit and Commerce International
  Mr. Vaz
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what consideration was given to appointing a different company from the auditors when Price Waterhouse were appointed by the Bank of England to prepare section 41 of the Banking Act 1987 report into BCCI.

  Mr. Norman Lamont
  The appointment of investigators under Section 41 of the Banking Act 1987 is a matter for the Bank of England. They have assured me that in making such appointments they choose the firm that seems best placed to perform the investigation in the circumstances.

  Money Growth
  Mr. Lawson
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will publish a table showing, for each quarter from the first quarter of 1979 to the last quarter of 1990 inclusive, the percentage annual growth of(a) MO, (b) M4 and M3.

  Mr. Norman Lamont
  [holding answer 18 October 1991]: Publication of M3 ceased in July 1989. The available information is contained in the following table.

  Growth rates of M0, M4 and M3: Percentage change over same quarter previous year

  Period ending

  M0

  M4

  M3

  1979

  Q1

  12·4

  12·8

  11.·7

  Q2

  12·3

  14·1

  13·3

  Q3

  12·6

  14·6

  13·3

  Q4

  12·3

  14·4

  13·0

  1980

  Q1

  10·1

  13·9

  12·9

  Q2

  9·2

  15·3

  15·5

  Q3

  7·5

  15·6

  16·3

  Q4

  5·5

  17·1

  18·6

  1981

  Q1

  7·0

  17·4

  18·0

  Q2

  5·6

  17·0

  16·9

  Q3

  5·8

  16·5

  16·9

  Q4

  5·2

  13·9

  25·0

  1982

  Q1

  2·4

  14·0

  25·9

  Q2

  3·0

  12·3

  22·6

  Q3

  2·3

  11·9

  19·9

  Q4

  3·1

  12·0

  8·9

  504

  Period ending

  M0

  M4

  M3

  1983

  Q1

  6·0

  14·4

  12·5

  Q2

  6·2

  13·8

  12·4

  Q3

  5·7

  13·1

  11·5

  Q4

  7·1

  12·7

  11·1

  1984

  Q1

  5·0

  11·5

  8·2

  Q2

  5·2

  12·5

  8·1

  Q3

  5·8

  13·1

  9·2

  Q4

  5·5

  13·2

  10·1

  1985

  Q1

  5·4

  13·8

  11·9

  Q2

  5·1

  12·8

  11·8

  Q3

  3·8

  13·4

  14·1

  Q4

  3·7

  13·0

  13·4

  1986

  Q1

  5·1

  14·5

  16·9

  Q2

  3·5

  15·7

  18·9

  Q3

  4·7

  15·8

  19·0

  Q4

  6·2

  15·6

  19·3

  1987

  Q1

  2·5

  13·8

  19·6

  Q2

  4·0

  13·5

  19·4

  Q3

  5·3

  14·7

  20·1

  Q4

  3·3

  15·8

  22·3

  1988

  Q1

  6·4

  16·8

  21·0

  Q2

  7·7

  16·8

  20·2

  Q3

  8·1

  18·7

  22·4

  Q4

  8·5

  17·3

  20·0

  1989

  Q1

  6·8

  17·6

  20·8

  Q2

  5·5

  18·4

  33·8

  Q3

  4·5

  18·9

  —

  Q4

  5·7

  18·0

  —

  1990

  Q1

  5·0

  17·7

  —

  Q2

  6·4

  16·9

  —

  Q3

  4·7

  14·7

  —

  Q4

  2·5

  12·2

  —

  Source: Bank of England.

AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD

  Institute of Horticulture
  Mr. McMaster
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he plans to attend the annual general meeting of the Institute of Horticulture.

  Mr. Curry
  I have no plans to do so.

  Wool Guarantee Scheme
  Mr. Speller
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make it his policy to leave the existing wool guarantee scheme in place until 31 December 1992; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Gummer
  It remains the Government's intention to terminate the wool guarantee scheme as soon as parliamentary time permits. My right hon. Friends and I have however decided that the guarantee will continue to operate for the 1992–93 clip year which begins on 1 May 1992. The level of the guaranteed price for 1992–93 will be considered and announced in due course.

  Drift Nets
  Mr. David Nicholson
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what further measures he is taking to ensure that drift nets have warning devices attached to deter mammals such as dolphins.

  Mr. Curry
  Research is being undertaken in the United Kingdom and throughout the world by scientists and fishermen to find ways of avoiding the accidental catches of dolphins. This Department is keeping in close touch with such investigations and is currently reviewing what further study might be made.

  Sheep Dip
  Mr. David Nicholson
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what representations he has received, since 1 July about the effects of organo-phosphorous sheep dips on farmers and others; what is his latest estimate of the medical evidence; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Maclean
  We have received further representations from hon. Members, individual farmers, interested organisations and members of the public about the effects of organophosphorous sheep dips on farmers and others. All the available information including medical evidence, will be taken into account by the Veterinary Products Committee, as part of its current review of existing licensed organophosphorous sheep dip products. The review will be completed later this year.

  Blue Ear Disease
  Mr. Michael Brown
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, further to his answer to the hon. Member for Torridge and Devon, West (Miss Nicholson) on 16 October,Official Report, column 153, how many pig premises under movement restrictions as a result of suspicion or confirmation of blue ear disease have since had restrictions lifted.

  Mr. Maclean
  Under the arrangements implemented on 16 October movement restrictions are to be kept in place on premises with suspected or confirmed cases for eight weeks following the disappearance of the clinical signs of the disease.

  Twenty five premises have been free of clinical symptoms for eight weeks or longer and have therefore been released from movement restrictions.

  Meat Imports
  Mr. Moss
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will announce the results of tests for clenbuterol undertaken on meat into the United Kingdom from the Irish Republic.

  Mr. Maclean
  In July 1991, traces of clenbuterol were found in a sample of bovine liver imported from the Irish Republic taken as part of the Ministry's routine surveillance arrangements for residues of veterinary medicines in imported meat. As a result of this finding, the Ministry immediately initiated a special survey of bovine muscle, kidney and liver entering the United Kingdom from the Irish Republic.

  The results of this survey are now available. A total of 93 samples were obtained between late July and early
  506
  September. Two samples of bovine kidney and one of bovine muscle were found to contain detectable residues of clenbuterol.

  In addition, a total of 66 archived—stored—samples of bovine muscle and kidney originating from the Irish Republic and taken during June 1990 and July 1991 were also examined for the presence of clenbuterol residues. Two kidney samples were found to contain detectable residues of clenbuterol. In this period, no samples of bovine liver, which is the preferred tissue for analysis for clenbuterol, were obtained.

  Screening and confirmatory testing of samples was carried out at the Department of Agriculture for Northern Ireland's—DANI—veterinary science laboratory in Belfast. Details of the positive analyses are set out in the table. Further confirmatory tests on positive samples were carried out at the MAFF food science laboratory, Norwich. These confirmed the presence of clenbuterol in four of the five samples. In one case, insufficent sample was available for confirmatory analysis.

  Clenbuterol concentrations in Irish bovine tissues Summary of positive test results

  (μg/kg) (parts per billion)

  DANI

  Date of import

  Tissue

  Screen test

  Confirmatory test

  Fresh meat samples

  3 August 1991

  Muscle

  0·7

  5·2

  17 August 1991

  Kidney

  1·1

  2·5

  17 August 1991

  Kidney

  >5·5

  12·9

  Archived samples

  2 June 1990

  Kidney

  >9·0

  13·9

  28 July 1990

  Kidney

  1·1

  2·6

  I have expressed to the Irish Minister of Agriculture, Mr. O'Kennedy, my concern at this evidence of clenbuterol contamination of exports of meat from the Irish Republic. We have also discussed this issue with the Irish authorities at official level. Mr. O'Kennedy has left me in no doubt of the seriousness with which he views this problem, and of his determination to deal with it. Strict controls have been introduced in the Irish Republic on the distribution of veterinary medicines and a major seizure of clenbuterol has been made. Substantially increased penalties for the illegal use of veterinary medicines have been approved by the Government in the Irish Republic and legislation giving more effect to these will be introduced soon. More comprehensive testing for clenbuterol is being introduced at meat plants in the Irish Republic. I welcome these measures as a clear demonstration that the Irish authorities are doing everything they can to stamp out the use of illegal animal medicines.

  We are also taking further action in the United Kingdom. A consultation document was issued in July proposing the establishment of statutory maximum residue limits—MRLs—for a range of veterinary medicines, including clenbuterol, under regulations to be made under the Food Safety Act 1990. These will make it an offence to present an animal for slaughter or to sell meat containing residues exceeding the prescribed M RLs. Subject to approval from the EC Commission we plan to bring these regulations into force shortly. At the same

  507
  time, we are continuing our monitoring of meat imports from the Irish Republic, and we will be maintaining our close liaison with the authorities there.

  The Department of Health advise that if humans were to consume meat contaminated with clenbuterol residue the main effects, if any, would be on the heart. If large amounts were ingested, palpitations and increased pulse rate might occur. There is no evidence of any cases of illness in the United Kingdom.

  Priorities Board Report
  Mr. David Shaw
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he has received a report from the Priorities Board for Research and Development in Agriculture and Food.

  Mr. Gummer
  The Priorities Board for Research and Development in Agriculture and Food has submitted its progress report to the Agriculture Ministers and the chairman of the Agricultural and Food Research Council. The sponsors are grateful for the work which Dr. Brian Smith and the members of the board have put into their report. This is the first report since the board was reconstituted in 1990. It includes the comments of its advisory sectoral groups—ASGs—covering arable crops, the environment, food, horticulture, monogastrics and ruminants. The ASGs bring together representatives of the main R and D funding bodies from the public sector and industry, consumer and environmental interests.

  The report sets out the progress of the board and the new ASGs. It identifies the future topics that the ASGs will be concentrating on, including:

  Animal Welfare (including housing and management systems);

  Animal health;

  Funding of grassland and forage research by industry;

  Novel crops and alternative uses for arable crops;

  Effectiveness of Technology Transfer in the Horticultural Industry;

  Allocation of public funding to the different sectors of the Food Safety R and D programme;

  Public funding of research into energy conservation, waste treatment and water quality in the food industry;

  Effect of availability of qualified specialists on Environmental R and D.

  The sponsors have agreed that the report should be published. This is now being arranged and advance copies are being placed in the Library of the House.

  Private Security Firms
  Mr. George
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will list the number of private security firms currently employed by his Department, the number of employees for each firm on the contract, the total value of each contract and the total value of all contracts for each financial year since 1984–85.

  Mr. Curry
  Seven private security firms are currently employed. One firm provides 10 guards under three contracts, another five guards under two contracts and the rest each supply one guard. Contracts are not necessarily

  Number of confirmed cases

  Month of onset of clinical signs

  Total

  3 years and under

  Over three years

  Unknown age

  1990

  January

  781

  14

  749

  18

  February

  1,252

  14

  1,200

  38

  March

  1,131

  5

  1,095

  31

  508
  made by financial years but our calculation of the total value of all the contracts in each financial year is as follows:

  £'000

  1984–85

  170

  1985–86

  277

  1986–87

  297

  1987–88

  312

  1988–89

  329

  1989–90

  358

  1990–91

  469

  In keeping with normal commercial practice it would not be appropriate to give the value of each individual contract.

  Fish
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a statement on the health of(a) freshwater fish in rivers, waterways and lakes and (b) seawater fish in the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Curry
  Fish populations in the United Kingdom enjoy a relatively high health status and we are free of the most serious fish diseases. We have taken action under the Diseases of Fish Acts to protect and maintain this position; and will continue to do so under a new Community directive, recently agreed, and coming into effect on 1 January 1993.

  Animal Feed
  Mr. Ward
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he intends to make it a requirement that all animal feed suppliers should comply with BS5750.

  Mr. Maclean
  We wholeheartedly support improved quality control in the animal feed industry and applaud those companies who are obtaining the BS 5750 certificate. It would not however be appropriate to make compliance mandatory.

  Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will give the figures for the number of confirmed cases of bovine spongiform encephalopathy in each month of 1990 and 1991, giving the number of cases in each month where the animal was(a) three years of age and under and (b) over three years; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Gummer
  The information requested for cases of bovine spongiform encephalopathy confirmed in Great Britain in 1990 and 1991, listed by month of onset of clinical signs is as follows:
  509

  Number of comfirmed cases

  Month of onset of clinical signs

  Total

  3 years and under

  Over three years

  Unknown age

  April

  1,001

  8

  950

  43

  May

  997

  12

  959

  26

  June

  965

  6

  934

  25

  July

  1,068

  10

  1,022

  36

  August

  1,171

  15

  1,113

  43

  September

  1,256

  23

  1,181

  52

  October

  1,252

  28

  1,169

  55

  November

  1,367

  20

  1,276

  71

  December

  1,696

  15

  1,632

  49

  1991

  January

  1,664

  22

  1,563

  79

  February

  1,625

  11

  1,573

  41

  March

  1,791

  9

  1,719

  63

  Blue Ear Disease
  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will list the counties where pigs have been found to be carrying the virus causing blue ear disease while at the same time showing no signs of the disease; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Gummer
  Pigs in North Yorkshire and Humberside have been found to be carrying the virus causing blue ear disease while at the same time showing no symptoms.

  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will give the number of pigs that have been tested for blue ear disease either by his Ministry or by private veterinarians; how many of these tests were found to be positive; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Gummer
  Up to 21 October blood samples from 690 pigs in Great Britain have been tested for blue ear disease at the central veterinary laboratory. A total of 436 pigs were found to be positive.

  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what new information he has about the transmission of blue ear disease in the pig population; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Gummer
  I refer the hon. Member to my reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Torridge and Devon, West (Miss Nicholson) on 16 October,Official Report, column 153.

  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what plans he has to introduce a slaughter policy to control blue ear disease; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Gummer
  I have no plans to introduce a slaughter policy which would serve no useful purpose as a disease control measure.

  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will update his answer to the hon. Member for South Shields of 15 October,Official Report, column 148, by giving details of the counties where restrictions have been imposed to control blue ear disease; whether the disease has been confirmed; and how many cases there are in each county up to the week beginning 21 October; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Gummer
  The information requested is as follows:
  510

  County

  Number of holdings

  Number of confirmed cases

  Humberside

  47

  17

  North Yorkshire

  4

  2

  Warwickshire

  1

  1

  Lincolnshire

  2

  1

  Surrey

  1

  0

  Total

  55

  21

  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what measures he took to prevent blue ear disease from entering the United Kingdom from countries which already had been known to have the disease in their own pig populations; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Gummer
  Information on the steps taken to try to prevent the introduction into the United Kingdom of blue ear pig disease is set out in my reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Torridge and Devon, West (Miss Nicholson) on 16 October,Official Report, column 153.

  Dolphins
  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture. Fisheries and Food, further to his answer to the hon. Member for South Shields of 15 October,Official Report, column 148, whether each of the dolphins caught in drift nets died or was returned to the sea; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Gummer
  Regrettably the five dolphins were dead when the nets were hauled on board. The fishermen themselves have been looking at ways to avoid dolphin catches; the current tuna fishery season is now over. I shall be pressing for a limitation on drift nets at the Fisheries Council on 28 October.

  Equines
  Mr. Harry Greenway
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when he expects the European Council of Ministers further to consider United Kingdom minimum values legislation on the export of horses, ponies and other equines; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Gummer
  [pursuant to the reply, 18 July 1991, c. 282]: The Agriculture Council reached agreement yesterday on a directive setting welfare conditions for the

  511
  transport of all types of animal in the Community. It introduces comprehensive welfare safeguards for the first time in this area.

  The directive establishes controls on the long distance transport of animals about which there has been so much concern. Animals will have to be rested, fed and watered at appropriate intervals. Before the directive comes into force the Council will address the issue of an overall limitation of journeys. This will be particularly relevant to the transport of animals for slaughter. There will also be a comprehensive system of documents to accompany vehicles for control purposes, and for long journeys transporters will have to draw up journey plans specifying the arrangements for resting, feeding and watering. Equivalent rules will apply to imports from third countries. There will be a Commission inspectorate to ensure uniform enforcement of the rules.

  The issue of trade in horses has been of major concern to the United Kingdom in these negotiations. The agreement provides that national rules will remain applicable for horses and our national arrangements will therefore continue. The Council has agreed to return to this issue at a later stage with a view to setting additional welfare safeguards for all transport of horses in the Community.

  The United Kingdom has also secured agreement that the problems of trade in wild birds will be addressed further by the Council, with a view to setting additional welfare safeguards.

  Overall this represents a very satisfactory result in an area which is very controversial throughout the Community.

  Nephrops
  Mr. John D. Taylor
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will consider a ban on the use of twin netting for the catching of nephrops by Scottish fishermen; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  I have been asked to reply. Fisheries Departments will shortly issue a consultation paper on the conservation of nephrops. This consultation paper will cover various options for conserving nephrops stocks, including a suggestion from parts of the industry to ban the use of twin and multi-rig trawls. Ministers will consider these various options in the light of responses to the consultation paper.

  Mr. John D. Taylor
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what has been the total catch of nephrops landed in Scotland in the years 1988, 1989 and 1990, and the total catch landed so far in 1991.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  I have been asked to reply. The total landings of nephrops into Scotland by all vessels are as follows:

  Year

  1Tonnes

  1988

  19,218

  1989

  18,080

  1990

  16,946

  1991

  214,291

  1 Standard landed weight

  2 Landings on the central computer on 14 October 1991.

ENERGY

  Coal Mining
  Mr. Rowlands
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy whether he will list the commencement dates for the respective sections of the Coal Mining Subsidence Act 1991.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  It is planned to bring the Coal Mining Subsidence Act 1991 into force on 30 November. There will be one transitional provision deferring for one year the obligation on developers to notify British Coal of their plans in areas where the developer would not necessarily be aware of the obligation to do so. This transitional period will give British Coal time to identify all the relevant areas and to publicise the obligation on developers.

  Landfill Gas Schemes
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if he will list all the landfill gas schemes(a) currently in operation and (b) being proposed in England.

  Mr. Moynihan
  I am aware of 37 landfill gas schemes currently in operation. They are at the following sites:

  Arlesey

  Brogborough

  Beenham

  Wapsey's Wood

  "L" Field Stewartby (two schemes)

  Witton

  Chesterfield

  Ridgeway

  Heathfield

  Aveley (two schemes)

  Pitsea

  Adswood

  Stretford

  Stone (three schemes)

  Cuxton

  Appley Bridge and Parbold (three schemes)

  Withnell Quarry

  St. Helens

  Enderby Warren

  Bidston

  Otterspool

  Brodsworth

  Stairfoot Quarry

  Maltby

  Meriden

  Judkins Quarry

  Allsopps Hill

  Hailstone Quarry

  Warnham

  Darrington

  Normanton

  I am aware of a number of proposals for new schemes. However, the details of such proposals are commercially confidential.

  Non-fossil Fuel Obligation
  Mr. Speller
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy when he will announce the combined capacity and individual capacity per technology for the components of the non-fossil fuel obligation generation of electricity; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Soley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if he will make it his policy to require the production of 165 MW of wind energy in the non-fossil fuel obligation.
  513
  Mr. Moynihan
  My right hon. Friend will set the level and structure of the 1991 renewables non-fossil fuel obligation after he has completed his statutory consultations with the Director-General of Electricity Supply and with the regional electricity companies.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what special arrangements he has in mind to encourage renewable energy projects in Scotland of equivalent commercial viability to those proposed in England and Wales to be enabled to contract their supply via the Non-Fossil Fuel Purchasing Agency.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  The future exploitation of renewable energy sources in Scotland is being considered by my Department's renewable energy advisory group. The Government will carefully consider the group's report when it is available.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what proposals he has for altering the relative and absolute size of the bands in the second tranche of the non-fossil fuel obligation.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  My right hon. Friend will decide his policy for the 1991 renewables order when he has completed the statutory consultations.

  Iraq
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if he will list the dates since 1979 that Her Majesty's Government have received assurances from the Iraqi Government that plutonium exported to Iraq from the United Kingdom will be used for peaceful purposes.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  In complying with the nuclear suppliers group guidelines covering the exports of nuclear materials and published by the IAEA as INFCIRC/254, the United Kingdom seeks peaceful use assurances from the Government of the country concerned for exports of plutonium in quantities in excess of 50 grams in any given period of 12 months. When the country is, like Iraq, a party to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, its obligations under the treaty remain valid even without such a specific reconfirmation.

  Since May 1979 there have been no exports of plutonium which have required Her Majesty's Government to seek such assurances from the Iraqi government.

  Nuclear Energy
  Mrs. Margaret Ewing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy (1) with which organisations he has discussed the possibility of nuclear fuel, originally intended for the Kalkar nuclear reactor in Germany, being loaded into the reactor at Dounreay; and if he will make a statement;

  (2) when he next intends to meet the nuclear utilities chairmen's group to discuss nuclear research and development strategy; and what subjects will be discussed.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  The nuclear utilities chairmen's group—NUCG—has put to my right hon. Friend proposals concerning the future of the fast reactor programme. These proposals include the possibility of using nuclear fuel originally intended for the SNR-300 fast reactor at Kalkar in the prototype fast reactor at Dounreay. My right hon. Friend intends to discuss these proposals with the nuclear utilities chairmen's group in the future.

  Private Security Firms
  Mr. George
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if he will list the number of private security firms currently employed by his Department, the number of employees for each firm on the contract, the total value of each contract and the total value of all contracts for each financial year since 1984–85.

  Mr. Wakeham
  The position remains the same as that given in reply to the hon. Member's previous question on this subject on 19 February 1990, at columns 525–26.

  Dounreay
  Mrs. Margaret Ewing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what was the total value to Dounreay of external reprocessing contracts in the years 1985–86, 1986–87, 1987–88, 1989–90 and 1990–91; and what percentage of that value came from overseas contracts.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  This is a commercial matter for the Atomic Energy Authority.

  Sizewell B
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if he will make a statement on the computer software programme designed to protect the Sizewell B reactor from major accident.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  The reactor protection system planned for Sizewell B comprises a primary protection system which is computer based and a secondary system which is not so based. The Health and Safety Executive's nuclear installations inspectorate—NII—will not consent to the operation of the primary protection system's computer software until the operator, Nuclear Electric plc. has made an acceptable safety case.

  The NII's decision to publish its safety requirements in respect of the software system has shown its openness on such matters and should assist public awareness of what is being required, and should demonstrate the high standards which Nuclear Electric plc will have to meet.

  The NII is seeking a robust demonstration of excellence of production, independent design assessment, and a comprehensive testing from prototype through to production.

  Fuel and Energy Supplies
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what assessment he has made of the implications for his policy of the proposals put forward by the EC Energy Commissioner in Berlin on 24 September on development of an internal market in fuel and energy supplies.

  Mr. Wakeham
  The Government support the objectives of the Commissioner's proposals for the development of an internal energy market.

  Magnox Plants
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy whether permission has been sought under the Nuclear Installations Act 1965 by Nuclear Electric or its predecessor, Central Electricity Generating Board, to make available to the operators of the Japco Tokaimura-I Magnox plant data from the Magnox plant at Bradwell in Essex.
  515
  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  I understand that Nuclear Electric plc has an understanding with Japco, the operators of Tokaimura-I, concerning the exchange of operational information in respect of Magnox power stations. This arrangement is not subject to provisions contained in the Nuclear Installations Act 1965.

  Energy Efficiency
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what measures his Department is taking to promote energy efficiency among small businesses; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  My Energy Efficiency Office is developing a new scheme to encourage smaller businesses to invest in energy efficiency measures. It is envisaged that the scheme will help pay the costs of energy audits, feasibility studies and project management of energy efficient investments in smaller enterprises. It is being designed to overcome the barrier of lack of management time and energy efficiency knowledge in such enterprises. Smaller business can also use our comprehensive information literature and copy the examples of the most effective technologies provided by the EEO's best practice programme.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what are the most up-to-date estimates available to him regarding the annual public expenditure total allocated to energy efficiency in the previous and present financial year in each of the OECD countries.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  My Department keeps abreast of energy efficiency developments overseas primarily through its work with the European Community and the International Energy Agency. The IEA publishes annual reports on its reviews of national energy policies and programmes, but its records of expenditure do not identify comparable items.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what is his most up-to-date estimate of the total annual expenditure of the energy efficiency office, and of all other Government expenditure on energy efficiency.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  The Energy Efficiency Office budget is £42 million this year. The report of the ministerial group on energy efficiency, published on 16 October, described a range of programmes to promote energy efficiency, which involve public expenditure in excess of £1 billion.

  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if he will give the name and principal functions of the chairman and members of the energy efficiency programme committee.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  The energy efficiency programme committee—EEPC—advises the Energy Efficiency Office—EEO—on the strategic, technical and commerical merits of sectoral strategies and individual projects under the best practice programme which are submitted to the committee for consideration. The committee also monitors progress on that programme. The names of the current members including the chairman are as follows:

  Dr. E. W. Lees (Energy Technology Support Unit, ETSU)

  Chairman

  516

  Dr. K. J. Brown (ETSU)

  Dr. A. B. Birtles (Building Research Energy Conservation Unit)

  Dr. V. Crisp (Building Research Establishment)

  Dr. J. E. P. Miles (Department of Energy, EEO)

  Dr. D. J. Vincent (Department of Energy, EEO)

  Dr. P. T. Clarke (Department of Energy, EEO)

  Dr. R. Moore (Department of Environment)

  Mr. A. J. Beaumont (Department of Trade and Industry)

  Dr. G. J. K. Acres (Johnson Matthey plc)

  Mr. D. G. Clarke (Twyford Bathrooms)

  Dr. D. A. Everest (University of East Anglia)

  Mr. S. A. B. Heppell, CBE (Manchester City Council)

  Dr. B. C. Hutt (W. S. Atkins Energy)

  Mr. P. Ibbotson (J. Sainsbury plc)

  Mr. R. D. Jones (Wimpey Environmental Ltd.)

  Mr. F. Nash (McLellan and Partners)

  Prof. P. O'Sullivan (University College, London)

  Mr. J. Ward (Polytechnic of Wales)

  Mr. Dobson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what was the cost of the production, publication and printing of the 1990–91 annual report of the ministerial conference on energy efficiency; how many copies were printed; and to whom they have been circulated.

  Mr. Wakeham
  Production, publication and printing of the annual report of the ministerial group on energy efficiency was carried out by the Central Office of Information for the Energy Efficiency Office, and cost £25,350. These costs will be met from the EEO's promotional budget. Five thousand copies were printed and have been circulated to colleagues in the Cabinet, Energy Ministers overseas, the major energy industries, energy efficiency bodies, industry trade associations, professional bodies, local authority associations, environmental groups and the press.

  I hope that the report will spread awareness of the wide range of the Government's policies and programmes to promote energy efficiency, and will encourage those who receive it to improve the efficiency with which they use energy.

  Nuclear Waste
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if he will give the latest estimate of volume of high-level radioactive waste from spent nuclear fuel imported from other nations which will(a) be returned to overseas customers and (b) not returned to overseas customers.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  The latest estimate of high-level waste arising from overseas reprocessing contracts entered into by British Nuclear Fuels plc is:

  cubic metres

  signed before 1976

  100

  signed since 1976

  400

  Overseas reprocessing contracts signed since 1976 contain options for the return of wastes. The Government intend that those options should be exercised. Its policy was set out in the reply given by my hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury (Mr. Goodlad) to the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell) on 2 May 1986 at columns 500–01.

  Home Energy Efficiency Scheme
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy how much of the home energy efficiency scheme grant has so far been allocated.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  I have notified the Energy Action Grants Agency that some £24 million is available for grants under the home energy efficiency scheme during the financial year 1991–92. Of this amount, some £17 million is being allocated to network installers in quarterly tranches to cover work to be done up to next March. The remainder has now been fully committed in approvals for direct applications.

  Oil Exploration
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if he will list the sites off the south coast of England where(a) applications are currently being processed and (b) applications have been granted for exploratory drilling for oil.

  Mr. Moynihan
  Consent to drill wells to search for oil and gas is given under the terms of licences granted by the Secretary of State for Energy. No applications for consent to drill off the south coast of England are currently being processed. Since 1964, consent has been given to a total of 14 exploratory wells off the coast of Dorset, Hampshire, West Sussex and the Isle of Wight. In addition, consent has been given to eight exploratory wells in the English channel.

  Consultants
  Mr. Dobson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy which consultants are to advise him on the location of the petroleum engineering division; when they were appointed; what tendering process was followed; how many firms submitted tenders; whether the winning firm submitted the lowest tender; what are their terms of reference; and what fee they will receive.

  Mr. Wakeham
  My Department will be seeking tenders from a range of consultants to review the location of the petroleum engineering directorate. I shall announce who is to carry out the review as soon as the consultants have been chosen.

  Mr. Dobson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy when Rothschild's and Touche Ross, respectively, were appointed to advise him on coal privatisation; what tendering process was followed; whether Rothschild's and Touche Ross submitted the lowest tenders; what are their terms of reference; and what fees they are to receive.

  Mr. Wakeham
  N. M. Rothschild & Sons Limited 'was appointed as financial advisers on the privatisation of British Coal on 30 May 1991. Touche Ross was appointed as accounting advisers on 12 June 1991. Both appointments were made by competitive tender. Details of the tenders submitted and of the fees paid to Government advisers are commercially confidential. Total expenditure on coal privatisation will be reported to Parliament in the usual way through the publication of departmental estimates and the annual appropriation accounts. Rothschild and Touche Ross have been appointed to provide advice on the possible options for the sale of British Coal. No firm decisions on the sale of the industry will be taken until after the next general election.

  Renewable Energy
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what consultations he has had with the Director-General of the Office of Electricity Regulation regarding the availability of commercially viable renewable energy projects in Scotland.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  As required under section 32 of the Electricity Act 1989, my right hon. Friend has consulted the Director General of Electricity Supply on matters relevant to the proposed 1991 renewables order, including the available field of generators who would be likely to meet the requirements of the legislation.

  Coal Industry (Pensioners)
  Mr. Andy Stewart
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if he will make it his policy to ensure that the pension benefits of members of the mineworkers pension scheme and the British Coal staff superannuation scheme will be protected following privatisation of the industry.

  Mr. Wakeham
  I can confirm that the Government will ensure that the pension interests of both current and past employees of the corporation will be properly safeguarded as has been the case with previous privatisations.

  Oldbury on Severn Nuclear Power Station
  Mr. Arbuthnot
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if the International Atomic Energy Agency's operational safety and review team's—OSART—follow-up report on Oldbury on Severn nuclear power station will be placed in the Library.

  Mr. Wakeham
  The original OSART mission to Oldbury nuclear power station took place in July 1989 and its Report was placed in the Library of the House in February 1990. As is now customary a follow-up OSART mission visited Oldbury in October 1990. I have, therefore, similarly arranged for its report to be placed in the Library of the House. I am pleased to note that, like the original report, this follow-up report commends the high standards of safety being achieved at Oldbury and praises the high degree of professionalism of station management and staff.

  Wind Energy
  Mr. Soley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what is the estimated reduction in carbon dioxide pollution which would result from wind energy capacity of 50, 100, 150 and 200 M W.

  Mr. Moynihan
  Savings in carbon dioxide emissions from wind power will depend on both the total annual output from the wind turbines and the kind of fuel displaced. On the assumption that coal fired generation was displaced 50 MW of wind power in typically windy sites for the United Kingdom might be expected to reduce carbon dioxide emissions by about 100,000t/year. A larger wind power capacity would increase the savings pro rata.

  The energy technology support unit estimates that each kilowatt hour of electricity generated from wind turbines saves about 850 grammes of carbon dioxide from a similar output of coal-fired generation.

  Nuclear Materials
  Mrs. Margaret Ewing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the current value to the United Kingdom of contracts undertaken at Dounreay for the reprocessing of nuclear material; and if he will list the value of individual contracts.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  I have been asked to reply. This is a commercial matter for the AEA.

  Mrs. Margaret Ewing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will list the total amount of spent nuclear fuel which has been stored or reprocessed at Dounreay in each of the past 10 years, stating for each consignment the point of entry to the United Kingdom, the methods of transportation used, the country of origin, and whether each consignment of reprocessed waste was returned to the country of origin.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  I have been asked to reply.

  In the past 10 years, there have been two consignments of spent irradiated fuel to Dounreay: 4 kg from India transported by road from Felixstowe; and 14 kg from Germany by rail and road from Dover. Arrangements for the contractual return of wastes are being developed.

  Mrs. Margaret Ewing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what information he has on current negotiations between the UKAEA and Canada for contracts relating to the storage or reprocessing of nuclear materials from Canadian nuclear power stations; and if he will make statement.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  I have been asked to reply.

  I understand that that UKAEA is currently considering two requests for the storage and possible reprocessing of spent irradiated fuel from Canada.

OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT

  Environmental Technology
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what matters in regard to improving environmental protection and facilitating the transfer of environmental technology were(a) discussed and (b) decided at the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in Zimbabwe.

  Country

  Project

  Total commit-ment £ million

  United Kingdom contractor-supplier

  Egypt

  Maghara Coal Mine

  0·080

  Babcocks

  India

  URI-Hydro

  17·146

  Boving and Co.

  Indonesia

  Radio Studios

  0·378

  David Whittle Associates

  Indonesia

  Aircraft Simulator

  0·050

  CAA

  Indonesia

  Satellite Remote Sensing

  0·028

  Technology Applied Systems

  Indonesia

  Cigading/Serpong Railway Rehabilitation

  24·690

  Davy/British Railway International

  Indonesia

  Radio Studio Rehabilitation

  5·040

  Audix Ltd.

  Kenya

  Moi University

  0·034

  Cambridge Education Consultants

  Kenya

  Mombasa South Coast Link Road

  0·350

  Sir Alexander Gibb and Partners

  Kenya

  Digital Micro Wave System

  4·214

  Telectron Systems

  Kenya

  Rural Telecommunication Equipment

  4·363

  Telectron Systems

  Morocco

  Gas Turbines

  7·276

  JBE

  Morocco

  Diesel Electric Locos

  6·107

  Brush Electrical

  Morocco

  Nador Steel Works Study

  0·133

  W. S. Atkins

  Pakistan

  Karachi Water II

  6·629

  Portals Water Treatment

  Philippines

  Gas Turbines Power Station

  13·125

  JBE

  Red Sea

  Regional Hydro Carbon Study

  0·187

  Robertson Research International

  Swaziland

  Fire Equipment

  0·123

  Carmichael Fire and Bulk

  520
  Mrs. Chalker
  Commonwealth Heads of Government held wide-ranging discussions on environmental issues during their meeting in Harare. The results are summarised in their communique, a copy of which is being placed in the Library.

  Commonwealth Conference
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will list the television and radio interviews he gave on matters for which he has responsibility, during his visit to Zimbabwe for the Commonwealth conference; and whether he set out any new policy initiatives in his media interviews.

  Mrs. Chalker
  During his visit to Zimbabwe for the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State gave the following television and radio interviews:

  16 October: BBC Radio

  16 October: BBC, ITN and Sky Television—joint interview

  19 October: Mozambican TV and Radio

  21 October: South African TV

  In all these interviews he explained how we were developing existing policy and commented on developments at the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting and elsewhere.

  Aid and Trade Provision
  Ms. Abbott
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) which companies had money allocated to them under the aid and trade provision in 1989–90, or the nearest convenient year; and how much they each received;

  (2) how much money was allocated under the aid and trade provision in 1989–90, or the most recent convenient year.

  Mrs. Chalker
  [pursuant to her reply, 28 February 1991, c. 564]: A further detailed examination of the list of aid and trade provision agreements entered into in 1989–90, and included in my answer of 28 February 1991, has shown up a number of inaccuracies. The correct list for 1989–90 is as follows:
  521

  Country

  Project

  Total commitment £ million

  United Kingdom contractor-supplier

  Thailand

  Railway Signalling

  0·773

  Transmark

  Tunisia

  Railway Equipment

  0·500

  Balfour Beatty

  Tunisia

  Yarn and Fibre Plant

  0·337

  Extrusion Systems Ltd.

  Turkey

  Natural Gas Conversion

  58·700

  AMEC International Construction

  Total 150·263

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS

  European Court of Justice
  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many decisions of the European Court of Justice have not been implemented by member states; which countries are in default; and which decisions of what date they have not implemented.

  Mr. Lennox-Boyd
  The Commission's most recent annual report monitoring the application of Community law records 83 judgments with which member states had not, or had only partially complied. Details of the member states and the judgments involved, and the dates, are contained in the "Official Journal" c 232 of 17 September 1990, a copy of which is available in the Library of the House.

  Private Security Firms
  Mr. George
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will list the number of private security firms currently employed by his Department, the number of employees for each firm on the contract, the total value of each contract and the total value of all contracts for each financial year since 1984–85.

  Mr. Lennox-Boyd
  The Foreign and Commonwealth Office currently employs only one such firm, Security Express Guards Ltd., which provides a cash in transit service. The value of this contract is commercially confidential.

  Until 1987 we also employed Reliance Security; and until 1990 Group 4 Total Security Ltd. Detailed information on these, and earlier records for the existing contract, are not kept in a centralised form and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  A number of Her Majesty's overseas missions also employ private security firms. Again, detailed records are not kept centrally.

  Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the outcome of the meetings held since the end of July of the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs and other Foreign Ministers of the CSCE participating states met in Moscow on 10 September and agreed that Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania could join the CSCE. We welcome their accession based on the acceptance of the principles and commitments of the CSCE.

  We also welcome the fact that the third meeting of the CSCE conference on the human dimension was held in
  522
  Moscow, 10 September-4 October 1991. The meeting adopted a concluding document which expanded the existing mechanism for raising human rights questions to allow the involvement of the services of impartial experts, and further extended commitments in the human dimension.

  The CSCE committee of senior officials has met four times since July to discuss Yugoslavia. The CSCE has repeatedly urged an end to bloodshed, and given its backing to the efforts of the European Community to aid the resolution of the crisis.

  Middle East
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will obtain for his departmental library a copy of the report, "The Control of the Middle East Arms Race", by Geoffrey Kemp and Shelley A. Stahl, published by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

  Mr. Lennox-Boyd
  A copy of the report has been obtained for the FCO departmental library.

  Cambodia
  Mr. John Hannam
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the peace process in Cambodia.

  Mr. Hurd
  Agreements on a comprehensive political settlement of the Cambodia conflict will be signed in Paris on 23 October at the reconvened Paris conference on Cambodia, meeting in ministerial session.

  Once signed on 23 October, the agreements will be published as a command paper. In the meantime the draft agreements have been placed in the Library of the House. They are closely based on the work of the five permanent members of the United Nations Security Council and Indonesia.

  The comprehensive settlement provides the elements for the security council to establish the mandate for the United Nations transitional authority in Cambodia (UNTAC): and a formal ceasefire: the regrouping, cantonment, disarmament and demobilisation of the forces of all the Cambodian parties: comprehensive provisions to protect human rights before and after elections: free and fair elections: and international guarantees of the sovereignty, independence, territorial integrity and inviolability, neutrality and national unity of Cambodia.

  The agreements to be signed on 23 October are the result of more than two years' work since the Paris conference on Cambodia was suspended in August 1989. As a permanent member of the United Nations security council, the United Kingdom has played a central role in these efforts.
  523
  Throughout we have insisted that there must be no return to the atrocities of the Pol Pot years and that self-determination for the Cambodian people through free and fair elections must be central to any agreement.

  We welcome the new-found spirit of co-operation and reconciliation among the Cambodian parties which has made these arrangements possible and congratulate Prince Sihanouk for his personal contribution to the peace process.

  Wilton Park
  Mr. Hannam
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what progress has been made in turning Wilton park into an executive agency.

  Mr. Lennox-Boyd
  Wilton Park became an executive agency on 1 September. Copies of its framework document have been placed in the Libraries of both Houses. The agency will be responsible for organising on behalf' of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the very successful annual programme of Wilton park international conferences. There will be at least 18 such conferences a year. The agency will also be responsible for marketing the spare capacity of the Wiston house conference centre for private conferences and functions. Through the medium of the framework document and the corporate plan I have instructed the chief executive that I expect the agency to maintain the effectiveness of the Wiston house conference centre as the home of Wilton park conferences, and to endeavour to raise still further the international prestige of the conferences. I have delegated to the chief executive full managerial responsibility for the agency and its day-to-day operations and provided the necessary financial and management freedoms to enable him to achieve its targets.

  I have set the agency the following key targets for this financial year:

  to increase income from £713,000 to £771,500;

  to recover 61 per cent. of its costs;

  to increase the overall number of Wilton park conference participants from 656 to 720.

  to ensure that the average cost to the FCO of each participant should not exceed £679.

  DNA Testing
  Mr. Tony Lloyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, how many months it is since the DNA testing results of RM (reference GV 100/11870) were completed; what are the reasons for the delays in issuing a visa; and if he wishes to make a statement.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  I have been asked to reply.

  Cellmark Diagnostics Ltd. sent the DNA test report on RM (reference GV 100/11870) to his father on 26 April 1991 and the latter forwarded it to the Home Office on 25 July. Authorisation to issue RM (reference GV 100/11870) with a certificate of entitlement to the right of abode was sent to the British High Commission in Dhaka on 12 September. They wrote to him on 26 September inviting him to attend the High Commission for that purpose.

PRIME MINISTER

  EC Presidency
  Mr. Anderson
  To ask the Prime Minister which special events during the United Kingdom presidency of the European Economic Community he proposes to hold in Wales.

  Mr. MacGregor
  I have been asked to reply.

  A wide ranging programme of special events is planned to mark our EC Presidency next year including cultural and artistic events. In Wales there will be an enhanced EC flavour to the Llangollen international eisteddfod: my hon. Friend the Minister of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs will attend on 9 July as day president.

  An informal meeting of EC Employment and Social Affairs Ministers will be held in Wales. The Welsh Office is also considering hosting a conference for representatives of its economic partner regions in Europe.

  British Medical Association
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Prime Minister what recent meetings he has had with the British Medical Association; and what was discussed.

  Mr. MacGregor
  I have been asked to reply.

  My right hon. Friend met the chairman of the Council and the Secretary of the British Medical Association on 30 September, and had a useful discussion on a range of matters related to the NHS.

  Mr. Colin Wallace
  Mr. Dalyell
  To ask the Prime Minister, pursuant to his answer of 22 July,Official Report, column 376, if he will set out his assessment of what went wrong in the case of Mr. Colin Wallace.

  Mr. MacGregor
  I have been asked to reply.

  A copy of the conclusions of the report by Sir David Calcutt QC into the handling of this appeal by Mr. Colin Wallace to the Civil Service appeal board was placed in the Library of the House on 13 October 1990.

  Earthscan Publication
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Prime Minister if he will obtain for the library at 10 Downing street a copy of the study published on 21 October by Earthscan, "Caring for the Earth: A Strategy for Sustainable Living".

  Mr. MacGregor
  I have been asked to reply.

  My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is aware of the report's contents and has arranged for copies to be made available in the Library of the House. The study will be useful in developing our position for next year's United Nations conference on environment and development which the Prime Minister hopes to attend.

  Citizens Charter
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Prime Minister, pursuant to his reply to the hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Mr. Bowden), on 14 October,Official Report, column 7, if he will set out the criteria he used in choosing the members of his panel of advisers on the citizens charter.
  525
  Mr. MacGregor
  I have been asked to reply.

  The panel of advisers were chosen for their experience and their commitment to improved standards of public service.

  Disarmament
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Prime Minister if he will place in the Library his response to the nuclear disarmament initiative made by President Gorbachev on 5 October.

  Mr. MacGregor
  I have been asked to reply.

  My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has already made it clear that the Government warmly welcome the response made by President Gorbachev to President Bush's initiative of 27 September. Together they represent a genuine opportunity to maintain secure defence at a lower level of armaments.

  Commonwealth Conference
  Mr. Dobson
  To ask the Prime Minister whether, in the course of his trip to the Commonwealth conference, he or any of his accompanying Ministerial colleagues or officials devoted any time to matters of a party political nature.

  Mr. MacGregor
  I have been asked to reply.

  I refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave him on 21 October.

  Engagements
  Mr. Harry Greenway
  To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for 22 October.

  Mr. MacGregor
  I have been asked to reply.

  My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is returning from the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in Harare.

  Party Conferences
  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Prime Minister (1) if he will call for a report from the chief constable of Lancashire on the effects on policing throughout Lancashire during the Conservative party conference; and if he will make a statement;

  (2) if he will set up a review of the policing and funding of policing and other emergency services for the major party political annual conferences.

  Mr. MacGregor
  I have been asked to reply.

  No. It is for the chief officer of the force concerned to decide how a party conference should be policed, as with any other police operation. I do not believe that such operations require any changes to the normal arrangements for funding police forces.

  Northern Region (Visits)
  Ms. Armstrong
  To ask the Prime Minister if he will list those official visits he has made to the northern region.

  Mr. MacGregor
  I have been asked to reply.

  My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is making visits to all parts of the country and he intends to include the northern region in them.

HOME DEPARTMENT

  summer Time
  Mr. Butler
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will meet the European Commission to discuss its view that any review of the application of summer time should be conducted at Community level; and if he will make a statement.

  Mrs. Angela Rumbold
  The annual period of summer time has been the subject of successive Community directives since 1981. Like the current directive, for 1990–92, the draft sixth Directive for 1993 and 1994 provides for the United Kingdom and Ireland to end summer time at a date different from that for other member states or to adopt the common ending date if we wish. While Her Majesty's Government are always ready to discuss the directives with the Commission as necessary, I am not aware that the Commission has expressed any preference for exercising responsibility for summer time arrangements beyond that reflected in existing texts.

  Dangerous Dogs Act
  Mr. David Marshall
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many dogs have been registered under the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991; what is his estimate of the number of such dogs not registered; and what he intends to do about these animals.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  I understand that the index of exempted dogs has received more than 6,000 notification forms. It is not possible at this stage to say how many owners have chosen not to complete a notification form in respect of their dog, as no precise figure exists for the number of pit bull terriers in the United Kingdom. At the time the Dangerous Dogs Act was passing through Parliament it was estimated that there were some 5,000 to 10,000.

  Owners who did not report to the police by 12 October have until 30 November to destroy or export their dog. but it is now too late for them to apply for compensation or to obtain a certificate of exemption in respect of their animal. Any unexempted specially controlled dogs that come to light after 30 November are liable to be destroyed and their owners will be liable to prosecution.

  Prison Officers Dispute
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) if he will publish in the Official Report (a) the weekly cost for each police force in England and Wales met by his Department since the prison officers dispute began and (b) the total cost;

  (2) if he will publish in the Official Report the number of prisoners that have been housed in police accommodation since the prison officers dispute began; and if he will separately distinguish the statistics for each force in England and Wales;

  (3) how many police officers in each force in England and Wales have been involved with supervising Home Office prisoners since the prison officers' dispute began.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  I assume that the hon. Member is concerned with the effect of industrial action at Cardiff and Swansea prisons only.

  Separate information on the cost of holding Cardiff prisoners in police cells and details of the number of police

  527
  officers involved in supervising these prisoners is not collected centrally. It could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  The number of prisoners housed in police accommodation on each Friday since the prison officers' dispute at Cardiff prison began and the police forces by which they were being held is as follows:

  Date

  Number

  Friday 21 June

  Avon and Somerset

  16

  Gwent

  9

  South Wales

  60

  Total

  85

  Friday 28 June

  Avon and Somerset

  25

  Dyfed and Powys

  20

  Gwent

  21

  South Wales

  64

  Total

  130

  Friday 5 July

  Avon and Somerset

  23

  Dyfed and Powys

  20

  Gwent

  20

  South Wales

  49

  Total

  112

  Friday 12 July

  Avon and Somerset

  23

  Dyfed and Powys

  14

  Gwent

  23

  South Wales

  45

  Total

  105

  Friday 19 July

  Avon and Somerset

  25

  Dyfed and Powys

  2

  Gwent

  28

  South Wales

  76

  Total

  131

  Friday 26 July

  Avon and Somerset

  26

  Devon and Cornwall

  12

  Gloucestershire

  7

  Gwent

  26

  South Wales

  48

  West Mercia

  12

  Total

  131

  Friday 2 August

  Avon and Somerset

  22

  Devon and Cornwall

  22

  Gloucestershire

  7

  Gwent

  24

  South Wales

  40

  West Mercia

  15

  Total

  130

  Friday 9 August

  Avon and Somerset

  28

  Devon and Cornwall

  14

  Gloucestershire

  6

  Gwent

  22

  South Wales

  50

  West Mercia

  10

  Total

  130

  Friday 16 August

  Devon and Cornwall

  23

  Gloucestershire

  7

  Gwent

  26

  South Wales

  53

  West Mercia

  9

  Total

  118

  Friday 23 August

  528

  Date

  Number

  Avon and Somerset

  26

  Devon and Cornwall

  23

  Dyfed

  5

  Gloucestershire

  10

  Gwent

  29

  South Wales

  44

  West Mercia

  9

  Total

  146

  Friday 30 August

  Avon and Somerset

  30

  Devon and Cornwall

  23

  Dyfed

  6

  Gloucestershire

  6

  Gwent

  24

  South Wales

  43

  Total

  138

  Friday 6 September

  West Mercia

  6

  Avon and Somerset

  33

  Devon and Cornwall

  22

  Dyfed

  12

  Gloucestershire

  6

  Gwent

  23

  South Wales

  54

  Warwickshire

  2

  West Mercia

  12

  Wiltshire

  1

  Total

  165

  Friday 13 September

  Avon and Somerset

  27

  Devon and Cornwall

  17

  Dyfed

  7

  Gloucestershire

  7

  Gwent

  23

  Hampshire

  9

  South Wales

  41

  West Mercia

  29

  Wiltshire

  2

  Total

  162

  Friday 20 September

  Avon and Somerset

  35

  Devon and Cornwall

  17

  Dyfed

  22

  Gloucestershire

  9

  Hampshire

  3

  Leicestershire

  7

  South Wales

  41

  Thames Valley

  5

  Warwickshire

  4

  West Mercia

  39

  Total

  182

  Friday 27 September

  Avon and Somerset

  23

  Devon and Cornwall

  22

  Dorset

  7

  Dyfed

  18

  Gloucestershire

  7

  Gwent

  24

  Hampshire

  3

  Leicestershire

  8

  South Wales

  37

  Thames Valley

  14

  West Mercia

  31

  Total

  194

  Friday 4 October

  Avon and Somerset

  26

  Devon and Cornwall

  13

  Dorset

  7

  Dyfed

  13

  Gloucestershire

  7

  Gwent

  23

  Leicestershire

  5

  South Wales

  32

  529

  Date

  Number

  Thames Valley

  14

  West Mercia

  29

  Wiltshire

  2

  Total

  171

  Friday 11 October

  Avon and Somerset

  24

  Devon and Cornwall

  10

  Dyfed

  26

  Gloucestershire

  9

  Gwent

  23

  Leicestershire

  3

  South Wales

  40

  Thames Valley

  10

  West Mercia

  23

  Total

  168

  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will call for a report from chief constables on the effect on normal policing of the prison officers' dispute.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  No. My right hon. Friend has regular meetings with chief officers of police to discuss a wide range of policing matters, including the effect of the prison officers' dispute.

  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what assessment he has made of the stress imposed on police officers resulting from the supervising of Home Office prisoners during the prison officers' dispute.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  No specific measurements of related stress have been made by the Home Office, but the Government's response to the Home Affairs Committee's fifth report on police sickness, published today, includes reference to more general research on stress in police work. Copies are being placed in the Library.

  Immigration
  Ms. Gordon
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many people are employed in the immigration and nationality department family reunion team to deal with cases in the refugee and special cases section.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  The staff of the asylum and special cases division has increased from 120 on 1 April 1991 to 300 at 16 October. It is intended to reach 550 by May 1992. There is no separate section dealing only with family reunion work.

  Police National Computer
  Mr. Andrew F. Bennett
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) further to his answer of 14 October,Official Report, column 33, if he will list the number of entries under each category for the existing police national computer and for police national computer 2;

  (2) when the police national computer 2 is expected to be operational; and how many entries from police national computer I will be transferred.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  The numbers of entries in each category of the police national computer system are as follows:
  530

  Numbers

  Criminal Names

  5,399,382

  Fingerprints

  4,305,144

  Wanted/Missing Persons

  135,726

  Disqualified Drivers

  377,128

  Convictions

  3,965,026

  Cross References

  719,201

  Crime Pattern Analysis

  134,946

  Major Investigations

  330,939

  Extremist Crime Index

  1,610

  Vehicle Owners

  39,567,080

  Vehicle Reports

  431,232

  Stolen Property

  32,777

  Police Directories

  3,460

  PNC2 is being brought into full service in stages. The first stage was completed in September to enable forces to access PNC2 for the last four categories of data listed in the table. A further transfer to PNC2 is taking place this month. For each category on PNC2 the full PNC1 database will be transferred

  Prisoners (Accommodation)
  Mr. Gareth Warded
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will now reconsider his decision not to accommodate Home Office prisoners in military camps.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  The recent measures to reduce the use of police cells to hold prisoners committed to custody by the courts were set out in my reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge (Mr. Shersby) on 14 October at columns 29–30. The number of prisoners held in police cells on Monday 21 October was just over 1,800. The problem has been exacerbated by industrial action at a number of prisons, including since last Thursday Birmingham prison, which is limiting their capacity. Further measures to ease the position are being developed.

  Police Numbers
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will publish in the Official Report, for each police force in England and Wales and for each year since 1978 (a) the number of uniformed police officers employed and (b) the percentage annual change in employment between each year.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Isle of Wight Police
  Mr. Barry Field
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how much will be saved in a full year from the Isle of Wight division budget as a result of the Hampshire and Isle of Wight police rank restructuring; and what proportion of this saving is to be spent on more policemen for the Isle of Wight division.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  I understand from the chief constable of Hampshire that the amalgamation of the two Isle of Wight sub-divisions under the command of a superintendent was made to improve management of the force, and is not expected to provide financial savings. The level of policing on the Isle of Wight will remain unchanged.

  Prison Accommodation
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the current level of vacant cell accommodation available at(a) Cardiff prison and (b) Swansea prison.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  The certified normal accommodation —CNA—of Cardiff prison is 338 and the operational capacity is 590. On 21 October, the population was 369, that is 221 below capacity. The prisoners were however overcrowded since they are concentrated in only part of the prison.

  The CNA of Swansea prison is 225 and the operational capacity is 285. On 21 October, the population was 282. The prison was therefore close to capacity, but, as with Cardiff, not all the accommodation was in use.

  Data Protection
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what assessment he has made of the adequacy of the grant aid provided to the Data Protection Registrar's office to enable him to deal with the data protection implications of new technology, new government initiatives that require the use of personal data, and data protection developments in Europe without adversely affecting his efforts to inform the public of their rights and data users of their obligations; and if he will make a statement.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  Funding of the registrar's office will continue to be determined in the light of expenditure bids and overall public spending constraints. It is for the registrar to decide how best to allocate grant-in-aid in order to fulfil his duties under the Data Protection Act 1984.

  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he expects the report on the scrutiny of criminal records to be published; whether the proposals for wider vetting forms part of his contribution to the citizens charter; and whether he will make a statement.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  The report will be available from the Home Office Library shortly.

  The Government welcome the report and accept the need to improve the maintenance and use of the national collection of criminal records so that it can serve the criminal justice system more effectively.

  Many of the report's recommendations raise substantial issues of policy and practice which will need further detailed consideration. As the report recognises, many of the changes that it recommends cannot be introduced until the criminal record collections, which are now held on microfiche at the national identification bureau—NIB—and within forces, have been computerised into a single system which can be available, on-line, to police forces, the courts and other criminal justice agencies. This is a major undertaking and, although work on it has already begun, it is unlikely to be completed until the mid 1990s.

  In order to eliminate the need for local record systems, the national computerised records system will have to hold information on a wider range of offences than those which are presently held in the records of the NIB. In particular, the Government accept the report's recommendation that cautions should be recorded on the national system. It has not yet reached a view on the treatment of bind-overs.
  532
  The Government accept that the new national criminal record system should be run by a central organisation and managed for the benefit of the criminal justice system as a whole. A good deal more work is necessary before final decisions can be taken on the precise shape and status of such an organisation. This work is now in hand.

  The Government acknowledge the weaknesses, which the report identifies, in the present arrangements for disclosing information from the criminal record for the purpose of assisting employers, licensing authorities, and so on, to judge the suitability of people for particular posts or positions. It is the Government's intention to publish a consultation paper in about 12 months' time outlining their proposals for new disclosure arrangements. By that time, the arrangements for managing the new national criminal records system and the content of the national record should be clearer.

  Because the recommendations on disclosure have substantial implications for exceptions made under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974, the consultation paper will also contain proposals relating to exceptions under that Act.

  Prisons
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will list for each Her Majesty's prison establishment, the number of(a) category A, (b) category B, (c) category C and (d) category D prisoners for the latest date he has figures; and if he will list those establishments that hold women prisoners.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  The information on categorisation is not readily available in the form in which it has been requested by the hon. Member. I will write to him as soon as possible.

  The following establishments hold female prisoners.

  Askham Grange

  Bullwood Hall

  Cookham Wood

  Drake Hall

  Durham

  East Sutton Park

  Holloway

  Low Newton

  New Hall

  Pucklechurch

  Risley

  Styal

  Derbyshire Constabulary
  Mr. Oppenheim
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will list(a) the number of police officers and (b) the number of civilian staff employed by Derbyshire constabulary for each year from 1979.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  The information is set out in the table.

  Strength

  At 31 December

  Police officers

  Civilian staff1

  1979

  1,587

  634

  1980

  1,832

  694

  1981

  1,779

  701

  1982

  1,754

  705

  1983

  1,768

  703

  1984

  1,761

  680

  1985

  1,765

  685

  1986

  1,761

  731

  1987

  1,796

  716

  533

  Strength

  At 31 December

  Police officers

  Civilian staff1

  1988

  1,786

  710

  1989

  1,790

  690

  1990

  1,751

  549

  (July) 1991

  1,722

  505

  1Centralisation of the country's common services has reduced the numbers of civilians employed exclusively on police support.

  Party Conferences
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what were the additional policing costs arising from(a) the Labour party conference in Brighton and (b) the Conservative party conference in Blackpool, in 1990 and in the current year.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  I understand from the chief officers of the forces concerned that the estimated additional costs are:

  Year and force

  Additional cost £

  Labour

  1990 Lancashire

  97,545

  1991 Sussex

  10,000

  Conservative

  1990 Dorset

  2,000,000

  1991 Lancashire

  1,379,000

  Immigration
  Mrs. Wise
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many wives have applied from India for settlement visas to join their husbands in Britain in 1988, 1989 and 1990, respectively; how many have been granted; and how many have been refused.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  The information requested is given in the table.

  Wives applying in India for an entry clearance for settlement in the United Kingdom

  Number of persons

  Applications

  1988

  1989

  1990

  Newly received1

  1,500

  1,840

  1,860

  Granted

  1,640

  1,610

  1,760

  Of which, granted on appeal

  2—

  10

  10

  Refused initially

  50

  120

  200

  1 Including applications subsequently withdrawn when the applicant was considered for a cerficate of entitlement to the right of abode in the United Kingdom.

  2 Five or fewer

  Parliamentary Constituencies
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, if he will list the parliamentary constituencies that the Boundary Commission will be reviewing in the three counties of Yorkshire, and Humberside and which it will be reporting on(a) during the next five years and (b) during the next 10 years.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  The Boundary Commission will be reviewing all the parliamentary constituencies in Yorkshire and Humberside in the course of the fourth general review of constituencies in England.
  534
  The Commission is required to submit its report between February 1993 and February 1998.

  Police Overtime
  Mr. David Nicholson
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what estimates he has of the cost to public funds of overtime payments in the police forces in England for each of the last five years; what representations he has received over the amount of overtime being worked and the cost thereof; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  Estimates of expenditure on police overtime are published annually by the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy, on the basis of information supplied by police authorities. Estimates for the last five years are given in the table. The budget of a police force, including its expenditure on overtime, is the responsibility of the police authority. The Home Office pays specific grant on 51 per cent. of this expenditure—52 per cent. in the case of the Metropolitan police. Local authorities pay the remainder, though their share is supported through the revenue support grant system. We have not received any recent representations about the cost of police overtime.

  Estimated Expenditure on Police Overtime

  England excluding Metropolitan Police

  Metropolitan Police

  1986–87

  80·474

  1—

  1987–88

  87·210

  1—

  1988–89

  95·863

  268·48

  1989–90

  100·609

  59·2

  1990–91

  112·973

  59·743

  1 Not available

  2 Outturn figure

  Wolds Remand Centre
  Mr. Sheerman
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what consideration he is giving to allowing the company or organisation successfully tendering to manage the Wolds remand centre to have their employees trained at the Prison Service college; and on what charging basis such facility would be offered.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  A number of staff will be trained by the Prison Service college in the local inmate database system which the Home Office requires a successful contractor to use, and therefore no charge will be levied for this facility.

  The provision of training for prisoner custody officers to meet the standard required under the Criminal Justice Act 1991 and the tender document is a matter for the successful company and it will be open to them to seek such training from any source. Those bidding for Wolds have included details of the arrangements that they would make if they were successful.

  Private Security Firms
  Mr. George
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will list the number of private security firms currently employed by his Department, the number of employees for each firm on the contract, the total value of each contract and the total value of all contracts for each financial year-since 1984–85.
  535
  Mr. Kenneth Baker
  The following private security firms are currently employed by my Department:

  Lisburn Security Services

  Securicor

  Group 4

  Security Wales

  Security Express Guards Ltd.

  Security Express

  Chubb

  Reliance

  Defence Security Services

  Securite Security Limited

  Potton Leisure Limited

  The value of each contract is a matter of commerical and contractual confidentiality. Information about the total value of such contracts for each year since 1984–85 is not readily available and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. Information about the number of staff employed on each contract is also not readily available; in some cases the number varies from day to day according to operational requirements.

  Dr. Jaffar Dhia Jaffar
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether an entry permit to the United Kingdom has been issued to Dr. Jaffar Dhia Jaffar from Iraq in the past 24 months.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  I regret that we have been unable to identify Dr. Jaffar from the information given. If the hon. Member will write to me with further details, preferably Dr. Jaffar's date of birth and when and for what purpose he is thought to have come here, I will have further inquiries made.

  Roberto Fiore
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make it his policy to deport Roberto Fiore on the grounds of his complicity in the 1981 Bologna railway bombing.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  No. The Minister of State, Home Office made clear to a question from the hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) on 18 May 1989 at column 257 that there was not evidence in this case which would meet the criteria under European Community law for the deportation of an EC citizen. That remains the position.

  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what representations he has received since May 1989 concerning Roberto Fiore.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  Representations have been received from the hon. and learned Member for Leicester, West (Mr. Janner) and from two members of the public about the possible extradition of Mr. Fiore to Italy.

  Humane Destruction
  Mr. Hardy
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will issue guidance to police forces of England and Wales in respect of the provision of instruments of humane destruction for use in connection with dangerous dogs or where animals have been injured.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  We do not think that guidance is necessary. It is normal practice for police officers to seek veterinary assistance when there is a need for an animal to be destroyed, except when there is an immediate threat to human life or limb.

  Sexual Offences
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is his policy towards the relative priority, within the overall objective of maintaining law and order, accorded by police for surveillance operations targeted towards arresting gay and bisexual men For alleged unlawful sexual acts, exposure or soliciting; and what is his assessment of the cost effectiveness of this use of police manpower.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  The police investigate all allegations of crime. The priority and level of resources given to different kinds of investigation are operational matters for chief officers.

  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what information he has as to the average fine for a first offence of indecency between males, gross indecency involving two men over the age of 21 years in a discreet public place; and what information he has as to the average fines imposed by Epsom magistrates and Crown courts on men convicted of this offence since July.

  Mr. John Patten
  Information on the number of first offences committed and on the location of offences is not collected centrally. Following the Sexual Offences Act 1967 an offence is not committed if two persons over the age of 21 are involved and the act took place in private.

  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what information he has as to the number of arrests and subsequent convictions in the last full year, by police force, arising from surveillance operations targeted towards alleged sexual offences by gay and bisexual men.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  The information is not recorded centrally. The police investigate all allegations of crime; measures to detect crime are operational matters for chief officers.

  Fund-raising
  Mr. Maclennan
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps he is taking to secure amendment of the draft EC directive on data protection to protect the fund-raising activities of the United Kingdom voluntary sector; and if he will make a statement.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  The Government are aware of concerns among various organisations, including those in the voluntary sector, about the likely effects of the draft directive on direct mailing. In discussion with other member states, we are seeking to ensure that the notification and consent provisions are modified in such a way as to avoid unreasonable restrictions on data use. Negotiations on the directive are likely to continue throughout next year.

  Television Licence Fees
  Sir John Wheeler
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will announce the television licence fees which will take effect from 1 April 1992.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  On 14 January 1991, at column 379, my right hon. Friend announced that the fee increase for April 1991, which was set at 3 per cent. below RPI, would be followed by annual increases at RPI over the subsequent four years. The operation of this formula would however be reassessed in 1994.
  537
  Licence fee increases are based on the annual increase in RPI as at the preceding September, in the same way as rises in pensions and other state benefits. Application of this year's September RPI figure of 4·1 per cent. to the current unrounded fees produces new rounded totals of £80 for a colour licence and £26·50 for a monochrome licence. The necessary regulations to bring these fees into force next April will be laid before the House in due course.

  Mr. Joseph Barker
  Mr. Devlin
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) whether Joseph Arthur Lewis Barker will be allowed home leave on parole whilst he is under the supervision of St. Lukes hospital, Middlesbrough; and if he will make a statement;

  (2) when it is intended to move Joseph Arthur Lewis Barker back to Durham prison in order that he may be considered for release on licence; and when a decision will be made as to his release on licence.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  I will write to my hon. Friend.

  Police Car Chases
  Mr. Leighton
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many people have been killed or injured in each of the last 10 years as the result of police car chases.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  I will write to the hon. Member.

NORTHERN IRELAND

  Ards Peninsula
  Mr. John D. Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will arrange for the preparation of a local area plan for the Ards peninsula.

  Mr. Needham
  The Ards peninsula is already included in the North Down and Ards area plan 1984–1995. This plan was statutorily adopted on 10 July 1989 after a public inquiry and is due for review by 1995.

  Mr. John D. Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what proposals the Rural Development Council has for a rural action programme in the Ards peninsula; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Hanley
  I shall write to the right hon. Gentleman as soon as possible.

  Pollution, Kircubbin
  Mr. John D. Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what information he has about the discharge of raw sewage at Doctor's bay, Kircubbin; whether any analysis has been carried out on the discharge; if he will arrange for the erection of a health warning sign; and what proposals he has to bring this discharge to an end.

  Mr. Needham
  I am not aware of any instances of raw sewage being discharged at Doctor's bay, Kircubbin. The most recent analysis of treated sewage at Kircubbin sewage treatment works satisfied the standard for discharge. There are no proposals to erect a health warning sign or to discontinue the discharge of treated sewage.

  International Fund for Ireland
  Mr. John D. Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many persons in Northern Ireland are employed by the International Fund for Ireland; and whether the organisation is registered with the Fair Employment Commission.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  As provided for in article 10 of the agreement establishing the International Fund for Ireland the secretariat of the fund is provided jointly by the two Governments. Within Northern Ireland a total of 11 staff have been seconded from the Department of Finance and Personnel to work for the fund. Given that the fund does not directly employ staff, it would not be appropriate for it to be registered with the Fair Employment Commission.

  Ferry Services
  Mr. John D. Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what proposals he has to improve the ferry service between Portaferry and Strangford; if he will provide a larger ferry boat; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Needham
  Planning permission for improvements to the terminal facilities in Strangford harbour has already been sought and consideration is being given to the provision, subject to the availability of finance, of a larger vessel.

  Fish Quotas
  Mr. John D. Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what effect the European Community fish quotas for 1991 have had so far on the number of fishing boats at Kilkeel, Ardglass and Portavogie.

  Mr. Hanky
  I shall write to the right hon. Gentleman as soon as possible.

  Strangford Lough
  Mr. John D. Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether the Crown Estate Commissioners have his approval to impose mooring charges in Strangford lough: what the role of the Crown Estate Commissioners will be in his proposals for the future management of Strangford lough; and if he will make a statement on the relationship between the Crown Estate Commissioners and Strangford lough under his proposals in "Strangford Lough—a Consultation Paper."

  Mr. Needham
  The Crown Estate does not require the approval of the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to impose mooring charges in Strangford lough. As the largest owner of the foreshore and seabed it would seem reasonable that the Crown Estate should be invited to play a role in the proposed management structure for the lough. The right hon. Gentleman will appreciate, however, that at this stage it is much too early for me to give commitments on the operation of the structure.

  Prawns
  Mr. John D. Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (1) what percentage of the European Community quota for prawns for 1991 has already been caught; and what proposals he has for the prawn fishing industry and its processing plants for the remainder of 1991;
  539
  (2) if he has requested a transfer of part of the European Community quota for prawns for the Republic of Ireland to Northern Ireland; if he has made any representations to the Government in Dublin; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Hanley
  Landings recorded by 3 October indicated that 90 per cent. of the United Kingdom's quota of 6,235 tonnes of nephrops—prawns—for area VII had been caught. A limit of 2 tonnes per vessel has been set for the month of October with the aim of keeping this fishery open until the end of the quota year on 31 December. The United Kingdom has obtained from the Republic of Ireland a total of 550 tonnes to add to its own quota. Most of the processing plants have built up stocks in cold stores sufficient to maintain their operations for the remainder of the year.

  Folk and Transport Museum
  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (1) if he will provide additional funding for the Folk and Transport museum, Cultra, to provide greater amenities for visitors, particularly in the winter months;

  (2) how many people have visited the Ulster Folk and Transport museum, Cultra, during the past 12 months.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  My right hon. and noble Friend the Paymaster General, who has responsibility for museums in Northern Ireland, has provided an additional £2 million to the Ulster Folk and Transport museum to enable work to commence this year on the building of a new rail gallery. This is expected to be completed in 1993–94 and is the first phase of a planned £4 million scheme to construct two new galleries which will house the entire transport collection on the Cultra site.

  From 1 October 1990 to the end of September 1991 there were 134,650 visitors.

  Tourists
  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many tourists came to Northern Ireland during the past 12 months; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Needham
  Visitor figures are compiled on a calendar year basis. The total number of visitors to Northern Ireland in 1990 was a record 1,153,000, representing an increase of 6 per cent. on 1989. The number of holiday-makers was 222,000, a 40 per cent. increase over the previous year.

  Abortions
  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (1) how many legal abortions have been performed in Northern Ireland during each of the past 10 years;

  (2) how many legal abortions have been performed in Northern Ireland on single women in each of the past 10 years; and if he will state the numbers in each age group.

  Mr. Hanley
  While the Abortion Act 1967 does not extend to Northern Ireland, therapeutic terminations of pregnancy can be carried out in Northern Ireland hospitals on strictly medical grounds. The number of such 540
  terminations is not recorded separately in the statistical information on obstetric and gynaecological procedures collected centrally.

  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what information he has on the number of pregnant women from Northern Ireland who have had legal abortions in Great Britain.

  Mr. Hanley
  I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply which I gave to the right hon. Member for Strangford (Mr. Taylor) on 14 October 1991,Official Report column 48.

  Adoptions
  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many illegitimate babies have been adopted or are waiting to be adopted during the past five years.

  Mr. Hanley
  The information requested is not readily available and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost, by the examination of individual adoption records over the past five years.

  Royal Victoria Hospital
  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (1) whether he will establish an inquiry into the current financial position of Royal Victoria hospital, Belfast; and if he will make a statement;

  (2) what is the extent of the financial cuts which Royal Victoria hospital, Belfast, intends to initiate; and what will he the effect of the proposed cuts on patient services, number of hospital beds and hospital wards, and number of medical, nursing and ancilliary staff.

  Mr. Hanley
  No financial cuts are currently planned by the Royal Victoria hospital and there is no need for an inquiry. The Royal Victoria hospital is a member of the royal group of hospitals unit of management within the Eastern health and social services board. The unit of management is required to live within the total allocation available to it and it agrees how this will be achieved each year through the operational planning process with board headquarters.

  Regular discussions are held between the board and its units to ensure the effective performance of units within budgets, and these are continuing normally with the royal group of hospitals unit of management.

  Disabled People
  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether a register of all disabled people in Northern Ireland has now been compiled.

  Mr. Hanley
  There is no statutory requirement to maintain a register of all disabled people in Northern Ireland. However, health and social services boards keep records of people, including disabled people, who are in contact with them for the provision of some services.

  Handicap Statistics
  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will give the total number of persons suffering from a serious handicap in Northern Ireland, giving the figures for deaf, dumb, mentally and physically handicapped, respectively.
  541
  Mr. Hanley
  The information is not available in the form requested. The table shows the number of persons in contact with health and social services boards in Northern Ireland for 1989–90, the latest year for which figures are available.

  Number

  Deaf without speech

  561

  Deaf with speech

  559

  Hard of hearing

  2,218

  Other registerable

  19,738

  physically disabled

  people, including blind

  and partially sighted

  Mentally handicapped

  6,075

  Milk
  Mr. John D. Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what is the milk production quota for the 1991–92 milk year; what is milk production to date; and if he will make a statement.

  Diagnosis

  1986

  1987

  1988–89

  1989–90

  1990–91

  Syphilis

  26

  16

  12

  20

  14

  Chancroid

  1

  —

  —

  1

  —

  Gonorrhoea

  184

  142

  113

  54

  80

  Non-specific genital infection

  3,942

  3,979

  3,254

  2,671

  2,536

  Trichomoniasis

  112

  92

  79

  54

  55

  Candidosis

  1,178

  1,223

  1,143

  970

  1,244

  Scabies/Pediculosis

  199

  240

  196

  130

  201

  Herpes simplex

  100

  94

  118

  129

  141

  Wart virus infection

  1,136

  1,263

  1,242

  1,261

  1,469

  Other conditions requiring treatment

  496

  442

  659

  726

  1,122

  Other conditions not requiring treatment

  1,360

  1,860

  1,271

  1,472

  1,659

  Total cases (in all stages) dealt with for the first time

  8,734

  9,351

  8,087

  7,488

  8,521

  Notes:

  1. The statistics relate to calendar years for 1986 and 1987 and thereafter to financial years.

  2. All figures refer to new cases dealt with for the first time.

  Cancer
  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will list the number of cases of cancer affecting men in Northern Ireland setting out separately the classification and number involved during each of the past 10 years.

  Mr. Hanley
  The new cases of cancer by site affecting males registered in the Northern Ireland cancer

  Site

  1980

  1981

  1982

  1983

  1984

  1985

  1986

  1987

  1988

  1989

  Lung

  541

  566

  595

  617

  600

  619

  625

  615

  600

  655

  Large bowel and rectum

  235

  250

  271

  295

  306

  294

  292

  313

  350

  325

  Stomach

  187

  149

  162

  164

  155

  150

  142

  159

  152

  148

  Breast

  2

  2

  6

  4

  1

  4

  2

  6

  6

  4

  Leukaemia and lymphoma

  167

  148

  153

  176

  210

  187

  204

  191

  193

  184

  Prostate

  202

  183

  211

  221

  212

  214

  230

  187

  242

  236

  Pancreas

  77

  67

  69

  71

  71

  81

  84

  70

  93

  77

  Bladder

  98

  102

  106

  126

  113

  104

  96

  90

  117

  105

  Eye, brain and other CNS

  57

  48

  41

  74

  55

  70

  50

  49

  41

  61

  Skin

  253

  276

  247

  249

  237

  210

  236

  292

  295

  240

  Other cancer

  517

  441

  415

  455

  438

  426

  471

  499

  572

  515

  Total

  2,336

  2,232

  2,276

  2,452

  2,398

  2,359

  2,432

  2,471

  2,661

  2,550

  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will list the number of cases of(a)
  542
  Mr. Hanley
  The wholesale milk quota for Northern Ireland in 1991–92 is 1,246·285 million litres. Following recent decisions of the European Court of Justice this amount will be increased by an allocation of approximately 4 million litres to those who currently hold a SLOM (Mulder) quota and, by an as yet unknown amount, to those who have recently applied for SLOM (Mulder) quota. The direct sales quota for Northern Ireland in 1991–92 is 5·621 million litres.

  Wholesale milk production in Northern Ireland for the period 1 April to 30 September 1991 is 732·49 million litres. This volume will be adjusted to take account of its butterfat content. Direct sales production will not be known until the end of the current quota year when direct sellers make their final returns.

  Sexually Transmitted Diseases
  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many cases of sexually transmitted diseases have been recorded in Northern Ireland in each of the past five years giving the numbers for each category.

  Mr. Hanley
  The available information is as follows:

  registration scheme for 1980 to 1989 are as follows. There is substantial under-reporting of cases in the present registration scheme.

  breast cancer and (b) separately other categories of cancer affecting women in Northern Ireland during the past 10 years.
  543
  Mr. Hanley
  The new cases of breast cancer and other categories of cancer affecting women which were registered with the Northern Ireland cancer registration scheme for

  Site

  1980

  1981

  1982

  1983

  1984

  1985

  1986

  1987

  1988

  1989

  Breast

  519

  497

  567

  590

  548

  617

  637

  600

  690

  702

  Lung

  176

  205

  205

  217

  240

  198

  264

  236

  269

  252

  Large Bowel and Rectum

  295

  296

  343

  332

  317

  319

  324

  348

  337

  338

  Stomach

  129

  126

  144

  141

  90

  88

  116

  109

  130

  114

  Leukaemia and Lymphoma

  134

  123

  132

  136

  160

  156

  164

  165

  179

  173

  Pancreas

  74

  70

  82

  83

  70

  80

  78

  98

  80

  92

  Ovary

  83

  83

  82

  101

  86

  94

  114

  114

  88

  110

  Cervix

  73

  89

  83

  96

  76

  78

  89

  79

  83

  76

  Other Uterus

  67

  79

  76

  92

  80

  80

  76

  87

  67

  86

  Bladder

  55

  41

  46

  49

  39

  42

  36

  43

  50

  40

  Eye, Brain and other CNS

  24

  32

  36

  56

  35

  53

  36

  42

  44

  47

  Skin

  320

  301

  316

  298

  295

  313

  297

  308

  300

  305

  Other Cancers

  363

  349

  389

  394

  375

  397

  420

  424

  430

  452

  Total

  2,312

  2,291

  2,501

  2,585

  2,411

  2,515

  2,651

  2,653

  2,747

  2,787

  AIDS
  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many cases of AIDS have been recorded in each of the past five years in Northern Ireland; and how much money has been allocated in the same years to deal with the problem.

  Mr. Hanley
  The number of new AIDS cases diagnosed in each of the past five years is:

  Number

  1986

  2

  1987

  1

  1988

  6

  1989

  7

  1990

  5

  1991

  14

  1 To 30 September.

  Resources are not allocated specifically for AIDS-related treatment and care services. Health and social services boards are required to provide such services from within their total financial allocations.

  Drugs
  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (1) what information he has on the involvement of terrorist organisations in Northern Ireland in drug smuggling and drug dealing; and if he will make a statement.

  (2) what quantities of drugs have been recovered by the police during each of the past 10 years; and if he will make a statement.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  I shall write to the hon. Gentleman as soon as possible.

  Birth Statistics
  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many single women have given birth to babies during each of the past 10 years stating the figures for single girls under the age of 21 years; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Hanley
  The information requested is as follows:
  544
  1980 to 1989 are as follows. There is substantial under-reporting of cases in the present registration scheme.

  Live births

  Still-births

  Year

  Total

  Aged under 21 years

  Total

  Aged under 21 years

  1981

  1,890

  812

  25

  11

  1982

  2,102

  861

  22

  8

  1983

  2,367

  1,028

  18

  12

  1984

  2,780

  1,230

  21

  11

  1985

  3,178

  1,381

  29

  16

  1986

  3,556

  1,565

  26

  11

  1987

  3,937

  1,646

  30

  17

  1988

  4,435

  1,868

  26

  10

  1989

  4,386

  1,817

  25

  10

  11990

  4,931

  1,914

  20

  8

  1 Provisional

  Source: Statistics held by General Register Office

  Speech Therapists
  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many speech therapists are registered in Northern Ireland; and if he will give additional funding to provide a greater number of speech therapists in the Province.

  Mr. Hanley
  At 30 September there were 188–168·83 whole-time equivalent—speech therapists employed in the Northern Ireland health and personal social services, all of whom were registered.

  This year the Government are spending £1,166 million on health and personal social services in Northern Ireland, an increase of £115 million on 1990–91 expenditure. It is a matter for the health and social services boards to determine their priorities in the provision and development of services.

  Elderly People
  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (1) what is the total amount paid for the care of elderly people in(a) residential homes and (b) nursing homes during each of the past 10 years;

  (2) what is the total number of elderly persons currently in (a) residential homes and (b) nursing homes; and what was the comparable figure 10 years ago.

  Mr. Hanley
  I shall write to the hon. Gentleman as soon as possible.
  545
  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many elderly persons have had to vacate a residential home during the past year because of inability to pay.

  Mr. Hanley
  This information is not available.

  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what is the maximum weekly payment to support elderly persons in private residential homes and nursing homes in Northern Ireland.

  Mr. Hanley
  The maximum amount of income support payable to elderly people in independent homes varies depending on the degree of care that the home is registered with the health and social services board to provide or the type of care actually required. The present limits are as follows:—

  Residential Homes

  £

  Age and infirmity

  160·00

  Elderly and blind or elderly and entitled to the higher rate of attendance allowance

  185·00

  Mental disorder

  170·00

  Drug or alcohol dependence

  170·00

  Mental handicap

  195·00

  Physical disablement— where disablement began under pensionable age

  230·00

  in any other case

  160·00

  Nursing Homes

  Mental disorder

  255·00

  Drug or alcohol dependence

  255·00

  Mental handicap

  260·00

  Terminal illness

  275·00

  Physical disablement—where disablement began under pensionable age

  290·00

  in any other case

  255·00

  Any other conditions

  255·00

  Personal expenses allowance for a single claimant

  11·40

  Conception Statistics
  Ms. Short
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (1) how many conceptions in 1990 to residents of Northern Ireland aged under 20 years(a) occurred outside marriage, (b) occurred outside marriage and led to maternity inside marriage and (c) led to a birth outside marriage which was jointly registered by both parents;

  (2) if he will list (a) the total number and rate of conceptions in 1990 to residents of Northern Ireland aged under 16 and 16 to 19 years and (b) in each of these age groups, respectively, the outcome of conceptions in 1990 broken down into live births, still births and terminations carried out from zero to 12 weeks' gestation, 13 to 19 weeks and 20 or more weeks in (i) England and Wales under the terms of the Abortion Act 1967 and (ii) Northern Ireland under prevailing legislation in the Province.

  Mr. Hanky
  The information requested is not held centrally and could be obtained only at disproportionate costs.

  Radioactive Material
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will list by year for the last 10 years, and for each port in Northern Ireland, the number of tonnes of radioactive material that was imported.

  Mr. Needham
  The information requested by the hon. Gentleman is as follows:

  Year

  Port

  Weight tonnes

  1987

  Belfast

  5·0

  1988

  Larne

  1·5

  1990

  Belfast

  0·1

  1991

  Belfast

  5·0

  These importations are internal United Kingdom movements. The material is used in local hospitals or universities for diagnostic, therapeutic or research purposes.

  Contraceptive Advice
  Miss Hoey
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what specialist provision exists in Northern Ireland to offer contraceptive advice and counselling to young people; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Hanley
  Young people can at present use the family planning services available from health and social services board clinics and general medical practitioners. The Eastern board also plans to arrange for the provision, through the Brook Advisory Centre, of an additional service geared to meeting the particular needs of people under 25 years.

  Toxic Waste
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will list by location the proposed new sites of high-temperature incinerators for dealing with inland toxic waste in Northern Ireland.

  Mr. Needham
  No proposal of this kind has been made. Du Pont Co. (UK) Ltd. is engaged on studies which may lead to a proposal for its site near Londonderry.

  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will list by location in Northern Ireland, the current sites of high-temperature incinerators for dealing with inland toxic waste.

  Mr. Needham
  There are none.

  Dental Health
  Mr. Shersby
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what was the cost to public funds of preventive dental health programmes in Northern Ireland for the most recent 12 month period for which figures are available.

  Mr. Hanley
  A wide range of staff provide both dental health education and treatment and it is not possible to identify separately the costs attributable to preventive progammes.

  Family Planning
  Miss Hoey
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether family planning provision in Northern Ireland is based on the same principles as those laid down
  547
  in the "Family Planning Service, Memorandum of Guidance," issued by the DHSS in 1974; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Hanley
  Yes. The memorandum of guidance on the family planning service in Northern Ireland, which was issued in 1975, follows broadly the principles laid down by the Department of Health and Social Security in 1974.

  Mr. Thurnham
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what progress has been made in establishing a Brook Advisory Service in Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Hanley
  I will write to my hon. Friend.

  Landfill Gas Schemes
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will list all the landfill gas schemes(a) currently in operation and (b) being proposed in Northern Ireland.

  Mr. Needham
  The information requested by the hon.

  Gentleman is as follows:

  Current

  Belfast North Foreshore (completed area)

  Craigmore Quarry—Antrim

  Newbuildings—Londonderry

  Green Road—Ballyclare

  Proposed

  Belfast Northe Foreshore (operating site)

  Ballygowan—Ards

  Sales Corner—Lisburn

  Ballyfodrin—Portadown

  Chromium
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will list by(a) years and (b) regional health authority for the last five years, the number of cases of (i) chromium poisoning and (ii) chromium contamination that have been reported.

  Mr. Hanley
  I shall write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will list by location, all the sites where chromium powder and chromium waste is dumped; and what precautions are taken to ensure that it is not(a) inhaled and (b) allowed to come into contact with the general public.

  Mr. Needham
  I shall write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Hospitality Costs
  Mr. Skinner
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what is the latest annual figure for the cost of hospitality provided by the Northern Ireland Office; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Brooke
  The cost of hospitality provided by the Northern Ireland Office in 1990–91 was £122,621·08.

  Invoice Payments
  Mr. Simon Coombs
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what is his Department's policy on the payment of invoices to small and medium-sized businesses.
  548
  Dr. Mawhinney
  The policy of the Northern Ireland Office and the Northern Ireland Departments is to pay invoices within the time scale directed by any terms of contract entered in to by the Department and the supplier. All other payments are processed, as far as possible, within 30 days of the receipt of an invoice.

  Bathing Water
  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when the last water quality or pollution checks were made in the sea along the North Down coast at which locations these were made; and with what results.

  Mr. Needham
  I shall write to the hon. Gentleman as soon as possible.

  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many beaches in Northern Ireland satisfy the minimum standards set by the European Community.

  Mr. Needham
  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment will be announcing the results of the 1991 bathing waters survey shortly.

  Natural Gas
  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when natural gas will be available in Northern Ireland; what arrangements are being made for a gas pipeline from mainland Britain to Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Needham
  As part of the privatisation of Northern Ireland Electricity, bidders for Ballylumford power station are being invited to put forward proposals for the conversion of Ballylumford to dual oil /gas firing and for the supply of gas to both that station and the wider energy market in Northern Ireland. Sale of the power stations is expected to be completed by April 1992.

  Earnings
  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what are the average gross weekly earnings of workers, male and female, in Northern Ireland.

  Mr. Needham
  Results from the new earnings survey indicate that at April 1990, the latest date for which information is available, the average gross weekly earnings for full-time male and female workers on adult rates in Northern Ireland were £253·50 and £180·60 respectively.

  Cost of Living
  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will investigate the increase in the cost of a loaf in Northern Ireland.

  Mr. Needham
  Bread prices in Northern Ireland were investigated by the Office of Fair Trading in 1989 and I know of no reason to reopen the investigation.

  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will investigate the last increase in the price of calor gas in Northern Ireland.

  Mr. Needham
  I shall write to the hon. Gentleman as soon as possible.
  549
  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will set up an inquiry into why the cost of living is higher in Northern Ireland than England; and if he will make a statement.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  While there are regional differences in some of the elements which contribute to the cost of living, the factors that influence living costs are much the same throughout the United Kingdom and the Government do not propose to set up an inquiry.

  Limavady
  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he now expects to announce a start date for the Limavady bypass.

  Mr. Needham
  I shall write to the hon. Gentleman as soon as possible.

  Helen's Bay
  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make Helen's Bay a designated environmentally sensitive area.

  Mr. Needham
  There are no plans to designate Helen's Bay as an environmentally sensitive area, nor are there any plans to apply any other conservation related designation to the area.

  Food Irradiation
  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what research has been carried out in Northern Ireland on the irradiation of food; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Hanley
  We are currently carrying out an extensive programme of internationally co-ordinated research into various aspects of food irradiation which is ongoing. It includes work on detection methods, the enhancement of food safety, extension of shelf life, impact of organoleptic characteristics, including colour, flavour and texture and impact on the vitamin content of selected foods.

  Punishment Shootings
  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will publish a table to show for each of the last three years the number of punishment shootings known to the Royal Ulster Constabulary in each police division in Northern Ireland and indicate how many were carried out by(a) Roman Catholic terrorist groups and (b) Protestant groups.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  I shall write to the hon. Gentleman as soon as possible.

  Redevelopment, Glenarm
  Mr. Beggs
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when moneys will be allocated by Department of the Environment (NI) and Department of Economic Development (NI) for redevelopment of Glenarm, Co. Antrim, including the clearance of the Old Whiting Mill site.

  Mr. Needham
  I shall write to the hon. Gentleman as soon as possible.

  Tutor Posts
  Mr. Beggs
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether job descriptions recognised by the North East education and library board and Department of Education (NI) for a youth and community tutor post and a youth tutor post can be changed without consultation.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  I shall write to the hon. Gentleman as soon as possible.

  Community Schools
  Mr. Beggs
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the recognition of community schools in Northern Ireland and when article 139 of the Education Reform (NI) Order 1989 will be invoked by the Department of Education (NI).

  Dr. Mawhinney
  Article 139 of the Education Reform (NI) Order 1989 is already in force. Under the terms of that article it is for the managers of grant-aided schools to apply to be designated as community schools.

  The Department of Education for Northern Ireland has received an application from the North Eastern education and library board, which is the manager of controlled schools in its area, and will be consulting the board on this in the near future.

  Private Security Firms
  Mr. George
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will list the number of private security firms currently employed by his Department, the number of employees for each firm on the contract, the total value of each contract and the total value of all contracts for each financial year since 1984–85.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  The Northern Ireland Office does not employ private security firms but Northern Ireland Departments currently employ a total of seven such firms on guarding contracts. It would not be in the interests of security to release the names of the firms and details of each contract are subject to commercial confidence. The current value of contracts, which are usually for a two-year period, is, however, £3,284,659. The firms concerned at present employ some 200 security guards. For the total value of all contracts for each financial year from 1984–85 to 1989–90 I refer the hon. Member to the reply he was given on 5 April 1990 at column 755. The total value of contracts for 1990–91 is £1,644,140.

  Queen's University
  Rev. Ian Paisley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (1) how much Queen's university, Belfast, received from the Government in access funds.

  (2) how much will be received by each student at Queen's university, Belfast, when the access funds are distributed;

  (3) what plans the Government have to provide additional funding to supplement the access funds for Queen's university, Belfast.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  The Queen's university of Belfast has, for the academic years 1990–91 and 1991–92, received £168,722 and £169,600 respectively in the form of access funds. These funds are not distributed to each student but
  551
  are disbursed at the discretion of the university, in response to individual cases of exceptional need. In making the annual allocations to Queen's university the Department of Education for Northern Ireland acts on the recommendation of the Universities Funding Council which is responsible for determining allocations to universities throughout the rest of the United Kingdom.

  Fuel Imports
  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what is the source of coal and other fossil fuel imported into Northern Ireland for use at power stations in the Province.

  Mr. Needham
  I shall write to the hon. Gentleman as soon as possible.

  Housing
  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many applicants are on the waiting list for tenancies in each housing executive district.

  Mr. Needham
  This is a matter for the Northern Ireland Housing Executive and I am advised by its chief executive that, at 31 September 1991, the information is as follows:

  Northern Ireland Housing Executive Total number on waiting list as at 31 September 1991

  District

  Total

  Antrim

  653

  Armagh

  533

  Ballycastle

  186

  Ballymena

  653

  Ballymoney

  315

  Banbridge

  322

  Bangor

  1,014

  Belfast 1

  682

  Belfast 2

  999

  Belfast 3

  790

  Belfast 4

  847

  Belfast 5

  622

  Belfast 6

  615

  Belfast 7

  1,263

  Carrickfergus

  524

  Castlereagh 1

  283

  Castlereagh 2

  518

  Coleraine

  800

  Cookstown

  226

  Craigavon

  237

  Downpatrick

  731

  Dunganon

  386

  Fermanagh

  536

  Larne

  418

  Limavady

  349

  Lisburn 1

  644

  Lisburn 2

  323

  Lisburn 3

  411

  Londonderry 1

  620

  Londonderry 2

  430

  Londonderry 3

  356

  Lurgan

  502

  Magherafelt

  378

  Newry 1

  484

  Newry 2

  462

  Newtownabbey 1

  351

  Newtownabbey 2

  498

  Newtownards 1

  583

  Newtownards 2

  304

  Omagh

  518

  Portadown

  412

  Strabane

  370

  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many dwellings have been sold by 552
  the Northern Ireland Housing Executive in each of the past 10 years; what percentage of existing housing stock was sold in the last financial year; what was the total market valuation of the dwellings sold in the last financial year; and what was the total actual selling price.

  Mr. Needham
  This is a matter for the Northern Ireland Housing Executive and I am advised by its chief executive that it has sold the following number of dwellings in the past 10 years:

  Year

  Number of properties sold

  1981–82

  7,042

  1982–83

  5,554

  1983–84

  5,440

  1984–85

  5,422

  1985–86

  4,103

  1986–87

  3,184

  1987–88

  2,807

  1988–89

  3,368

  1989–90

  4,638

  1990–91

  4,092

  A total of 2·4 per cent. of its stock was sold in 1990–91; the market value of dwellings sold in 1990–91 was £69·31 million; and the price reached for dwellings sold in 1990–91 was £36·07 million.

  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will give the names and addresses of housing associations in Northern Ireland and the amount of funding provided to each association.

  Mr. Needham
  The names and addresses of housing associations registered with the Department of the Environment for Northern Ireland are set out in the table. Information on the capital funding provided by the Department to individual associations could be provided only at disproportionate cost in respect of periods before April 1989 when records were computerised. The amount provided to each association from 1 April 1989 to 30 September 1991 is as follows:

  Association and registered office

  Capital funding (£)

  Abbeyfield Northern Ireland

  Development Society Ltd.

  Room 10

  Carlton House

  Shaftesbury Square

  Belfast BT2 7LH

  1,207,000

  Ballymacarret Housing Association Ltd.

  233a Albertbridge Road

  Belfast BT5 4PU

  Nil

  Ballynafeigh Housing Association Ltd.

  70 Kimberly Street

  Belfast BT7 3DY

  977,000

  Baptist Union of Ireland Housing Association

  117 Lisburn Road

  Belfast BT9 7AF

  1,177,000

  Belfast Community Housing Association Ltd.

  131 Ravenhill Road

  Belfast BT6 8DR

  147,000

  Belfast Improved Houses Ltd

  Russell Court

  Claremont Street

  Belfast BT9 6JX

  10,227,000

  Ben Madigan Housing Association Ltd

  Russell Court

  Claremont Street

  Belfast BT9 6JX

  350,000

  553

  Association and registered office

  Capital funding (£)

  Botanic Housing Association Ltd

  99 Agincourt Avenue

  Belfast BT7 1QD

  133,000

  Broadway Housing Association Ltd

  131 Ravenhill Road

  Belfast BT6 8DR

  351,000

  The James Butcher Housing Association

  (Northern Ireland) Ltd

  Murray House

  Murray Street

  Belfast BT1 6DN

  6,112,000

  Church of Ireland Housing Association

  (Northern Ireland) Ltd

  74 Dublin Road

  Belfast BT2 7HP

  405,000

  Clonard Housing Association Ltd

  54 Clonard Gardens

  Belfast BT13 2RH

  879,000

  Connswater Housing Association Ltd

  50 Mersey Street

  Belfast BT4 1EX

  229,000

  Coral Crescent Housing Association Ltd

  Registered Office

  2 Coral Crescent

  Randalstown Road

  Antrim BT41 4LW

  Nil

  Covenanter Residential Association Ltd

  Cameron House

  98 Lisburn Road

  Belfast BT9 6AG

  3,000

  Craigavon and District Housing Association Ltd

  20 Carleton Street

  Portadown BT62 3EN

  1,607,000

  Craigavon Housing Association Ltd

  c/o Glencraig Community

  Craigavad

  Holywood

  Co Down

  316,000

  Derry Housing Association Ltd

  18 Magazine Street

  Londonderry BT48 6HH

  3,246,000

  Donacloney Housing Association Ltd

  38 Main Street Donacloney Craigavon

  Co Armagh BT66 7LR

  141,000

  Down and Connor Housing Association Ltd

  Netherlands House 128 Upper Dunmurry Lane

  Belfast BT17 OEW

  710,000

  Dungannon and District Housing Association Ltd

  48A Irish Street

  Dungannon BT70 1DB

  1,012,000

  Flax Housing Association Ltd

  Brookfleld Mill 333 Crumlin Road

  Belfast BT14 7EA

  386,000

  Fold Housing Association

  3–4 Redburn Square

  Holywood BT18 9HZ

  8,982,000

  Gosford Housing Association (Armagh) Ltd

  "The Mornings" 16 Stockingmanshill Road

  Armagh BT60 1HZ

  736,000

  Grove Housing Association Ltd

  139 York Road

  Belfast BT15 3GZ

  1,072,000

  Habinteg Housing Association (Ulster) Ltd

  12 Sullivan Close

  Holywood BT18 9HL

  3,116,000

  Hearth

  181A Stranmillis Road

  Belfast BT9 5DU

  320,000

  Larne and District Housing Association Ltd

  97E Main Street

  Larne BT40 1HJ

  275,000

  Lisnagarvey Housing Association Ltd.

  2b Magees Road

  Ballinderry Upper

  Co Antrim

  352,000

  554

  Association and registered office

  Capital funding (£)

  Malone Housing Association Ltd.

  Level 2

  Admin Building

  QUB

  University Road

  Belfast BT7 INN

  399,000

  Masonic Housing Association

  (Northern Ireland) Ltd.

  74 Dublin Road

  Belfast BT2 7HP

  406,000

  McGarel Housing Association Ltd.

  97E Main Street

  Larne BT40 1HJ

  5,000

  Newington Housing Association (1975) Ltd.

  300 Limestone Road

  Belfast BT15 3AR

  647,000

  Nih Housing Association Ltd.

  'Hazelbank'

  361 Shore Road

  Newtownabbey

  Co Antrim BT37 9SA

  8,361,000

  Northern Ireland Co-ownership

  Housing Association Ltd.

  Murray House

  Murray Street

  Belfast BT1 6DN

  20,685,000

  North Belfast Mission Housing Society Ltd.

  17 Palmerston Road

  Belfast BT4 1QA

  251,000

  Open Door Housing Association

  (Northern Ireland) Ltd.

  10–14 Commercial Court

  Belfast BT1 2NB

  1,980,000

  Presbyterian Housing Association (NI) Ltd.

  Lamont House

  Purdy's Lane

  Newtownbreda

  Belfast BT8 4AX

  3,210,000

  The Royal British Legion Housing Association

  (Northern Ireland) Ltd.

  War Memorial Building

  Waring Street

  Belfast BT1 2EU

  4,478,000

  St. Matthews Housing Association Limited

  58 Harper Street

  Belfast BT5 4EN

  9,000

  Students' Housing Association Co-op Ltd.

  3/5 Botanic Avenue

  Belfast BT7 1JG

  3,861,000

  Tennent Street District Housing Association Ltd.

  229 Tennent Street

  Belfast BT13 3GG

  1,650,000

  Triangle Women's Housing Association Ltd.

  Citizen's Advice Centre

  Queen Street

  Coleraine

  960,000

  Ulidia Housing Association Ltd.

  57A Botanic Avenue

  Belfast BT7 1JF

  724,000

  Ulster Homemaker Ltd.

  c/o NIFHA

  Carlisle Memorial Centre

  88 Clifton Street

  Belfast BT13 1AB

  Nil

  Willowfield Parish Church

  Housing Association Ltd.

  131 Ravenhill Road

  Belfast BT6 8DR

  9,000

  Woodvale & Shankill Housing Association Ltd.

  58 Rosebank Street

  Belfast BT13 3HB

  2,523,000

  Meningitis
  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will give the number of cases of meningitis recorded in Northern Ireland and the number of deaths from meningitis, showing the ages of the patients concerned for each of the past five years.

  Mr. Hanley
  I shall write to the hon. Gentleman as soon as possible.

  Police (Disciplinary Proceedings)
  Mr. McNamara
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many police officers have been (i) made the subject of internal disciplinary proceedings and (ii) prosecuted as a result of incidents detected by closed circuit television monitoring of interviews of suspects detained under the terrorism provisions.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  [holding answer 15 October 1991]: I shall write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Rehabilitation Medicine
  Mr. Martyn Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will estimate the number of consultants in rehabilitation medicine in post in Northern Ireland in December(a) 1980, (b) 1985, (c) 1990 and (d) July 1991, respectively.

  Mr. Hanley
  [holding answer 18 October 1991]: Detailed information concerning medical staff in post is categorised by speciality, rehabilitation medicine is not recognised as a separate specialty for this purpose. In September 1990, however, the latest date for which figures are available centrally, there were five—4·55 whole-time equivalent—consultants within the rheumatology and rehabilitation specialty some of whom would have been engaged in rehabilitation medicine. The equivalent figure for both September 1980 and September 1985 was three.

  Homicides in Northern Ireland 1966–1990

  Year

  Murder

  Manslaughter

  Infanticide

  Total

  1966

  3

  0

  —

  3

  1967

  8

  1

  —

  9

  1968

  2

  4

  —

  6

  1969

  5

  8

  —

  13

  1970

  14

  6

  —

  20

  1971

  123

  21

  —

  144

  1972

  376

  17

  —

  393

  1973

  200

  15

  —

  215

  1974

  205

  8

  —

  213

  1975

  238

  9

  —

  247

  1976

  280

  11

  —

  291

  1977

  116

  5

  2

  123

  1978

  82

  2

  1

  85

  1979

  128

  7

  1

  136

  1980

  85

  5

  3

  93 (5)

  1981

  95

  7

  0

  102 (2)

  1982

  99

  5

  0

  104 (4)

  1983

  86

  4

  1

  91 (6)

  1984

  63

  2

  0

  65 (2)

  1985

  59

  2

  0

  61 (2)

  1986

  85

  2

  0

  87 (2)

  1987

  100

  6

  3

  109 (4)

  1988

  111

  5

  0

  116 (4)

  1989

  67

  8

  0

  75 (1)

  1990

  71

  11

  0

  82 (1)

  Total

  2,701

  171

  11

  2,883

  World Summit for Children
  Miss Lestor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if his Department has completed the review of its policies for inclusion in the progress report on action in the areas targeted by the World Summit for Children's declaration and plan of action; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Brooke
  The Foreign and Commonwealth Office is co-ordinating an exercise among all interested Whitehall Departments in order to prepare the United Kingdom's progress report on action in the areas targeted by the World Summit for Children's declaration and plan of action. The aim is to submit this to the UNICEF secretariat by the end of this year. My Department is liaising closely with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office on the preparation of this report.

  Homicide
  Mr. Nicholas Winterton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will publish the figures for(a) the total number of homicides in Northern Ireland and (b) the total number of homicides in Northern Ireland in which the victim was a child in (i) the last complete year in which the death penalty was available to the courts and (ii) each year since the death penalty ceased to be available to the courts.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  [holding answer 21 October 1991]: In Northern Ireland, the death penalty for most categories of murder was abolished in 1966, and for all murders in 1973. The following information gives the total number of homicides since 1966. Figures for infanticide and deaths of children under 14 are available only from 1977 and 1980 respectively.
  557
  Notes:

  1. From 1968 to 1976 information on infanticides is included in "manslaughter".

  2. Figures in brackets ( ) refer to children under the age of 14.

WALES

  Sport (Schools)
  Mr. Rowlands
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what assessment he has made of the impact of local management and funding of schools upon the extracurricular activities of children in sport.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  Under local management of schools, governing bodies of schools take their own decisions on the provision of extra-curricular activities in sport. They are best placed to make decisions about priorities within their schools and about the needs of individual children.

  Landfill Gas Schemes
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list all the landfill gas schemes(a) currently in operation and (b) being proposed in Wales.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  I am not aware of any current or proposed landfill gas schemes in Wales.

  Adult Education
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many representations he has received during the past three months on the question of charging structures for adult education; whether the letter sent out to hon. Members by the Department of Education and Science represents Welsh Office policy on the issue; and if he will make a statement.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  The Department has received 132 representations during the past three months about future funding arrangements for adult education. The letter which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science sent to hon. Members on 24 September 1991, with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales' agreement, sets out the Government's policy for adult education in England and Wales.

  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make it his policy not to pursue the issue of paying for adult education, in any manner that discriminates against non-vocational courses in the financial structure of adult education.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  Our policy on adult education does not discriminate against non-vocational courses. Our proposals will place a duty on the new Further Education funding council for Wales to support courses of the kind listed in chapter 3 of volume 2 of the White Paper "Education and Training for the 21st Century". Local education authorities will continue to have a duty to provide for recreational and leisure courses for adults and they will continue to receive support for this purpose through revenue support grant. The Government intend that local authorities should have the freedom to decide how to respond to the demand for adult education in their area, as they do at the moment, and to set out the level of fees which students are charged.

  Hazardous Waste Imports
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list by year for the last 10 years, and for each port in Wales, the number of tonnes of hazardous waste that was imported.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  Returns on the importation of hazardous waste into the United Kingdom are available only for the period since the introduction of the Transfrontier Shipment of Hazardous Waste Regulations in October 1988.

  The information in respect of Welsh ports for the years to 31 March 1989, 1990 and 1991 is shown in the following table.

  (tonnes)

  Port

  Holyhead

  Newport

  Swansea

  October 1988 to 31 March 1989

  —

  43·0

  —

  1 April 1989 to 31 March 1990

  156·2

  1,327·0

  5·2

  1 April 1990 to 31 March 1991

  815·9

  4,517·3

  10·1

  Empty Properties
  Mr. McMaster
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will publish a table showing the most recent estimate of the number of void dwelling units in the ownership of(a) government agencies or departments, (b) local authorities, (c) private landlords and (d) housing associations; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The information requested is given in the following table for the two latest years. Corresponding figures for Government Departments or agencies and private landlords are not centrally available. The numbers given for housing associations are not comparable with those of the local authorities. The former refer to units rather than dwellings and contain a high proportion of units purchased specifically for rehabilitation.

  Vacant dwellings by tenure

  Local authorities1

  Housing associations2

  1990

  3,023

  1,152

  1991

  2,430

  1,196

  1 Source: Welsh Office local authority returns, at 1 April

  2 Source: Housing for Wales. at 31 March.

  Nurses (Regrading)
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what guidelines are issued by his Department to the health service in Wales with regard to the length of time within which appeals by nursing staff against regrading decisions should be heard; and what proportion of such appeals have taken over 12 months to be heard.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  Agreed procedures for pursuing staff grievances are set out in section 32 of the general Whitley Council conditions of service which bind
  559
  employing authorities and employees. There is no time limit within which appeals made to the employing authority should be heard and information on the numbers of nurse regrading appeals which have taken longer than 12 months to be completed is not held centrally. At the all-Wales level the time needed by staff sides and management alike to prepare for subsequent nurse regrading appeals lodged by staff organisations or trade unions, following unsuccessful appeals at the local level, has resulted in the majority of appeals taking longer than 12 months to complete.

  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will set up an investigation into the appeals system in relation to the regrading of nurses, in dealing effectively and expeditiously with the appeals by school nurses in Gwynedd; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  Staff grievance procedures are set out in section 32 of the general Whitley Council agreement, which provides for three levels of appeals. When the clinical grading structure was negotiated, the nursing trades unions chose not to pursue the possibility of introducing more streamlined procedures. However, all regrading appeals from nurses in Gwynedd have been completed at the employing authority level. Progress in hearing appeals at other levels is dependent upon the submission of case statements from both staff sides and management and the availability of people to present and hear cases. Measures designed to speed up the mechanics have recently been implemented at the regional, all-Wales level and at national level a range of new proposals is being discussed between both sides of the Nursing and Midwifery Staffs Negotiating Council.

  Toxic Waste
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list by location in Wales, the current sites of high-temperature incinerators for dealing with inland toxic waste.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The information is not available within the Department.

  High temperature incineration of waste can take place where so authorised within factory premises or in merchant plant available for disposal contracts. The only merchant incinerator in Wales is located at Panteg, Pontypool, Gwent.

  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list by location the proposed new sites of high-temperature incinerators for dealing with inland toxic waste in Wales.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  There are no planning proposals for such high temperature incinerators currently before the Secretary of State for decision.

  Dental Health
  Mr. Shersby
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what was the cost to public funds of preventive dental health programmes in Wales for the most recent 12-month period for which figures are available.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  Responsibility for arranging for the provision of dental health education and preventive programmes is delegated to district health authorities. Information on the cost of such programmes is not available centrally.

  RECHAR
  Mr. Rowlands
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what his latest estimate is of the amount expected from the RECHAR programme for mining communities in Wales; and what proportion this is of the total expressed(a) for the United Kingdom and (b) for all Community coalfield areas.

  Mr. David Hunt
  Wales expects to receive some £18·6 million for the industrial south Wales RECHAR programme. This amounts to 6·6 per cent. of the total RECHAR allocation across the Community and 17 per cent. of the expected United Kingdom allocation.

  Mr. Rowlands
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list the schemes submitted to the European Commission under the RECHAR programme; and how many have to date been approved.

  Mr. David Hunt
  None. The European Commission has not yet approved the RECHAR programme for industrial south Wales. Applications for individual projects cannot be invited until the RECHAR programme has been approved.

  Homelessness
  Mr. McMaster
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will publish a table showing the most recent estimate of expenditure by local authorities on accommodating homeless families in temporary or bed-and-breakfast accommodation; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  Local authority net current expenditure on bed-and-breakfast accommodation for homeless persons in 1989–90 was £1,091,000. Expenditure information on homeless persons in other forms of temporary accommodation is not available centrally.

  Mr. Murphy
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many people are currently homeless in Wales.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  During the quarter April to June 1991, 6,039 persons were included in households accepted as homeless by local authorities under section 58 of the Housing Act 1985.

  Nurses
  Mr. Rowlands
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what estimate he has made of the number of newly qualified nurses currently seeking employment in the national health service.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  Figures for those newly qualified nurses who are currently seeking employment in the national health service in Wales are not available.

  However, the number of all student nurses, midwives and health visitors expected to become eligible for registration with the Welsh National Board during the period April 1991 to March 1992 is estimated at 1,334.

  Property Act
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received urging the enactment of a new Property Act for Wales; and if he will make a statement.
  561
  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  We have received representations from a number of individuals and bodies.

  Video Recordings
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales, pursuant to his answer to the hon. Member for Don Valley of 19 June,Official Report, column 173, if he will make it his practice to keep central records of lists of titles of the video recordings purchased by his Department.

  Mr. David Hunt
  No.

  Employment Action
  Mr. Rowlands
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many people have accepted places on the employment action programme to date(a) in the Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney constituency, (b) in Mid-Glamorgan and (c) in Wales.

  FHSA

  Population (thousands)1

  People registered2

  Ratio3

  Clwyd

  411·8

  175,607

  1,611

  Dyfed

  354·0

  146,510

  1,495

  Gwent

  447·5

  191,259

  1,427

  Gwynedd

  241·1

  102,835

  1,659

  Mid Glamorgan

  539·6

  198,895

  1,462

  Powys

  117·4

  48,434

  1,275

  South Glamorgan

  406·8

  187,724

  1,478

  West Glamorgan

  363·2

  178,611

  1,385

  1 Mid year estimate 1990.

  2 As at 30 September 1991.

  3 People registered divided by the number of general dental practitioners (as at 30 June 1991).

  Chromium
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list, by location, all the sites where chromium powder and chromium waste is dumped; and what precautions are taken to ensure that it is not(a) inhaled and (b) allowed to come into contact with the general public.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  This information is not available centrally. The nature of wastes going into specific landfill sites and suitable operational precautions are matters for waste disposal authorities under the licensing provisions of the Control of Pollution Act 1974.

  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list by(a) year and (b) by regional health authority for the last five years, the number of cases of (i) chromium poisoning and (ii) chromium contamination that have been reported.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  During the last five years (1986 to 1990 inclusive), there have been two admissions to Welsh hospitals, both in 1987, for which the diagnosis was the toxic effects of chromium.

  Since 1986–87, certain forms of chrome ulceration, a condition contracted through occupational exposure to chromium, have been reported under the Reporting of Injuries, Diseases and Dangerous Occurrences Regulations. The figures, for Wales, for each year from 1986–87 are listed as follows. Information on other forms of chromium poisoning or chromium contamination is not available.
  562
  Mr. David Hunt
  Places have been available on employment action since 1 October 1991. Information on participants is not yet available.

  Dental Services
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will publish in the Official Report for each health authority area in Wales (a) its population, (b) the number of people registered with a general dental practitioner and (c) the ratio of dental practitioners to the number of people registered.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The information, which is given by family health service authority area, is given in the following table.

  Reported cases of chrome ulcerations

  Number

  1986–87

  4

  1987– 88

  6

  1988–89

  1

  1989–90

  1

  Hospitality Costs
  Mr. Skinner
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is the latest annual figure for the cost of hospitality provided by the Welsh Office; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. David Hunt
  I refer the hon. Gentleman to my reply to the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. Redmond) on 19 June 1991. Expenditure to date in this financial year is now £15,219·80.

  Health Authority Chairmen (Salaries)
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will publish in the Official Report the current salary levels of each health authority chairman in Wales and indicate the number of days per week each is employed.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The information is contained in the table.

  Remuneration of health authority chairmen in Wales

  Band

  Current rates1

  Notional days per week

  District Health Authorities

  South Glamorgan

  1

  17,610

  3·5

  Mid Glamorgan

  1

  17,610

  3·5

  563

  Band

  Current rates1

  Notional days per week

  West Glamorgan

  1

  17,610

  3·5

  Gwent

  1

  17,610

  3·5

  Clwyd

  1

  17,610

  3·5

  Gwynedd

  2

  15,659

  3·25

  East Dyfed

  2

  15,659

  3·25

  Powys

  3

  13,812

  3·0

  Pembrokeshire

  3

  13,812

  3·0

  Health promotion authority for Wales

  3

  13,812

  3·0

  Family Health Service Authorities

  South Glamorgan

  2

  10,705

  2·5

  Mid Glamorgan

  2

  10,705

  2·5

  West Glamorgan

  2

  10,705

  2·5

  Gwent

  2

  10,705

  2·5

  Clwyd

  2

  10,705

  2·5

  Dyfed

  2

  10,705

  2·5

  Powys

  3

  9,903

  2·5

  Gwynedd

  3

  9,903

  7·5

  1 From l January 1991. All current rates are under review.

  Bathing Beaches
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will place in the Library the detailed results of the bathing waters monitoring carried out on Welsh beaches in the summer.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  Details of the monitoring are on public registers maintained by the Welsh region of the National Rivers Authority (NRA) available for inspection at its offices during normal working hours. A summary of the information relating to EC identified bathing waters will be contained within the report prepared under article 13 of the EC bathing water directive and, as in previous years, a copy will be placed in the Library of the House. I understand that the NRA will again publish a report containing the results of its sampling of both designated and non-designated waters in England and Wales.

  Cardiac Treatment
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he intends to announce the location and start-up date for the second cardiac centre in Wales.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  Priority is being given to improving facilities at the University hospital of Wales, enabling it to meet its target of 800 open heart operations per annum. Options for further expanding capacity to meet the target for south Wales recommended by the cardiology committee of the Royal College of Physicians, will be addressed as this programme of investment is concluded.

  Juvenile Macular Degeneration
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will publish the latest available figures showing the total number of recorded cases of juvenile macular degeneration in Wales.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The number of cases of juvenile macular degeneration is not recorded centrally. However, information available indicates that there were only seven admissions of persons under the age of 16, to hospitals in Wales during the 10 year period 1981–1990, where this diagnosis was recorded.

  South Glamorgan Health Authority
  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what were the totals of(a) in-patients, (b) out-patients, (c) day patients and (d) accident and emergency patients treated by South Glamorgan health authority in 1979 and at the latest available date.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The information is as follows:

  1979

  1990–91

  In-patients

  67,526

  84,392

  Out-patients

  102,545

  113,610

  Day cases

  10,704

  19,155

  New accident and emergency out-patients

  78,684

  85,213

  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (1) how many administrative and clerical staff were employed by South Glamorgan health authority in 1979 and at the latest available date;

  (2) how many nurses and midwives were employed by South Glamorgan health authority in 1979 and at the latest available date;

  (3) how many doctors and dentists were employed by South Glamorgan health authority in 1979 and at the latest available date;

  (4) how many professional and technical staff were employed by South Glamorgan health authority in 1979 and at the latest available date.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The information, which relates to staff in post (whole-time equivalents) as at 30 September, is as follows:

  1979

  1991

  Administrative and clerical staff

  1,410

  1,731

  Nursing and midwifery staff1

  4,211

  4,875

  Professional and technical staff

  1,123

  1,510

  1979

  1990

  Medical and dental staff

  604

  718

  1 1979 figures included Blood Transfusion staff, 1991 excludes them.

  Inward Investment
  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (1) what steps he is taking following the Trades Union Congress statement on inward investment from Japan in his efforts to attract more such investment for Wales;

  (2) what is his estimate of the impact on inward investment to Wales, both already made and potentially to be made, following the Trades Union Congress statement on such investment from Japan.

  Mr. David Hunt
  I deplore the TUC motion. Japanese companies make a very substantial contribution to our outstanding record of attracting overseas investment to Wales. They are widely welcomed; and many of them have undertaken expansions which illustrate how successful they are. I have every confidence that Wales will continue to be an extremely attractive location for future Japanese investment.

  EC Funding
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (1) if he will make representations to the EC to continue funding projects in the county of South Glamorgan under objective II of the European regional development fund in view of the current levels of unemployment;

  (2) if he will make representations to the European Commission to take account of the increased level of unemployment in Cardiff as well as in the valleys and other areas of Wales by the continued funding of projects in all such areas of Wales under objective II of the European regional development fund.

  Mr. David Hunt
  The objective 2 area of industrial south Wales will continue to be eligible for structural fund assistance under the appropriate Community support framework for 1992–93.

  Mental Illness
  Mr. John P. Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales whether it remains Government policy that social service departments will continue to have statutory responsibility to ensure the provision of social care for the mentally ill discharged to the community.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  Yes.

  Mr. John P. Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if social service departments in Wales will have overall responsibility for drawing up community social care plans for the mentally ill after consultation with health and other agencies; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  Under the Welsh Office mental illness strategy social service departments are required to work with other statutory and voluntary agencies. and user and carer interests in each county, to produce joint plans to meet the requirements for care and support of people with mental illnesses, including social care.

  Mr. John P. Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if it remains the intention of Her Majesty's Government that responsibility for funding the social care costs of the mentally ill in the community assessed to be in need of residential care should be transferred to social service departments.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  Securing social care for people with mental illnesses is already the responsibility of social services authorities. Under the Welsh Office mental illness strategy all agencies are required to work together and deploy available resources to achieve more accessible services. These resources include those provided by social services authorities, as well as those provided by the Welsh Office as direct grants under the strategy. In addition health authorities can transfer resources for social care to social services authorities. From April 1993, further resources will be progressively transferred to the social services authorities from the social security programme as part of our more general "Caring for People" White Paper reforms.

  Disability
  Mr. John P. Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if Her Majesty's Government will reconsider implementing section 7 of the Disabled Persons (Services, Consultation and Representation) Act 1986.
  566
  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The need to implement section 7 will be reconsidered in the light of experience in implementing the Government's comprehensive programme of action to secure effective care after hospital treatment which, in Wales, is being taken forward under the all-Wales mental illness strategy.

  Languages
  Mr. Alex Carlile
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many students in Wales in each of the years 1987 to date achieved at least a D grade in A-level French. German, Spanish and Italian. respectively; and if he will make a statement.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  The information, provided by the Welsh Joint Education Committee, is as follows:

  French

  German

  Spanish

  Italian

  1987

  555

  172

  51

  9

  1988

  532

  194

  55

  12

  1989

  702

  159

  62

  7

  1990

  857

  265

  79

  8

  1991

  1,091

  326

  83

  3

  Students in Wales can sit examinations with boards other than the WJEC. In recent years the proportion of candidates sitting examinations in Wales with the WJEC has been approximately 95 per cent. of all candidates.

  GCSE
  Mr. Alex Carlile
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (1) how many students in Wales in each of the years 1987 to date achieved at least a C grade in GCSE Latin and classical Greek, respectively; and if he will make a statement;

  (2) how many students in Wales in each of the years 1987 to date achieved at least a C grade in GCSE French, German, Spanish and Italian. respectively; and if he will make a statement.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  The information, provided by the Welsh Joint Education Committee, is as follows:

  11987

  1988

  1989

  1990

  1991

  French

  3,125

  4,774

  5,841

  5,708

  6,283

  German

  711

  1,127

  1,341

  1,414

  1,530

  Spanish

  142

  192

  223

  322

  316

  Italian

  56

  38

  34

  64

  41

  Latin

  242

  127

  98

  83

  62

  Greek

  7

  9

  3

  2

  1

  1 GCE 'O' level.

  Students in Wales can sit examinations with boards other than the WJEC. In recent years the proportion of candidates sitting examinations in Wales with the WJEC has been approximately 95 per cent. of all candidates.

  Private Security Firms
  Mr. George
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list the number of private security firms currently employed by his Department, the number of employees for each firm on the contract, the total value of each contract and the total value of all contracts for each financial year since 1984–85.

  Mr. David Hunt
  Two private firms are regularly employed to provide security services under contracts valued as follows:
  567

  £000s

  1984–85

  73

  1985–86

  85

  1986–87

  88

  1987–88

  89

  1988–89

  92

  1989–90

  99

  1990–91

  105

  Commencing in 1991–92 occasional use has also been made of private security firms for special events where costs and numbers of employees vary according to individual circumstances. Services provided under these arrangements are estimated to cost £9,000 in 1991–92.

  Ty Manor, Castell Caereinion
  Mr. Alex Carlile
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if his Department will provide special project funding to Cadw for the conservation and restoration of Ty Manor medieval hall, Castelle Caereinion; and if he will make a statement.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  Ty Mawr, Castell Caereinion is in the care of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State.

  The Landmark trust, which has expressed an interest in the building, and Cadw—Welsh Historic Monuments Executive Agency—have worked together, drawing on advice from the Ancient Monuments Board for Wales, and a restoration feasibility and cost appraisal study has been carried out. This was fully funded by the Department. We are continuing to review with our statutory advisors how best to see this important structure for the future.

  Disability
  Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he has any plans to introduce orange badge disabled facilities for those suffering from inflammatory bowel disease.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  There are no plans to extend the orange badge scheme to sufferers of inflammatory bowel disease. The scheme is principally designed to assist people with permanent and severe mobility problems.

  Health Service
  Dr. Marek
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is the establishment of district nurses, midwives and health visitors in the Aberystwyth area; and how many of the posts are filled at the present time.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The information requested is not available centrally.

  Dr. Marek
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales whether he has offered any help, financial or otherwise, towards public relations to any health unit in Wales that was considering opting out of the district health structure and forming a trust.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  To date only Pembrokeshire health authority has received a financial contribution towards the costs incurred through preparing an application for NHS trust status.

  Acid Rain
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many representations he has received during the past three months on the issue of acid rain in Wales; and if he 568
  will make a statement on the Government's policy with regard to overcoming the environmental threats posed by acid rain in Wales.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  We have received a number of representations in recent months. The Government's policy on acid rain is set out in the 1990 Environment White Paper "This Common Inheritance" and the first year report on the White Paper published last month.

  The Government have responded decisively to the threat of acid rain. In 1984, the Government adopted the aim of reducing annual sulphur dioxide emissions from all existing sources by 30 per cent. on 1980 levels by the year 2000, and we are on target to meet that objective. Emissions of sulphur dioxide in Britain have declined significantly in recent years—by about 24 per cent. from 1980 levels and by almost 40 per cent. from 1970 levels. The Government have a substantial programme of action in hand to ensure that this trend continues.

  Coastal Flooding
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received from the Towyn and Kimnel Bay branch of Pensioners Voice concerning the Towyn floods; what steps he has taken to assure himself of the adequacy of the new sea defence system to prevent any recurrences of the disaster; whether any future steps are to be taken to rejuvenate the environment in the area affected by the floods; what investigations have been undertaken by his Department into the extent to which builders have exploited the flood victims; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. David Hunt
  The Secretary of the Towyn and Kimnel Bay branch of Pensioners Voice has written to me on several occasions.

  Sea defences at Towyn are now being permanently strengthened by British Rail. The scheme has been designed by a leading firm of consulting engineers and the design itself has been model tested at a leading hydraulics laboratory.

  Efforts to rejuvenate the environment continue. The Welsh Development Agency has already provided £500,000 of grant aid for environmental improvements and on completion of the planned programme will have spent some £1·2 million. In addition, the Wales tourist board has recently launched "Quest" (Quality Upgrading and Environmental Scheme Towyn) and several caravan sites have already shown an interest in taking advantage of £200,000 which has been targeted by the board at Towyn.

  Significant numbers of garden grants have also been made available from the charity fund and the fund is still open for inquiries.

  I understand that the Welsh Consumers Council is currently looking into the activities of private builders in the area.

  Welsh Teaching
  Mr. Murphy
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (1) how much extra funding for Welsh teaching has been given to Gwent county council, as a result of changes in the national curriculum;

  (2) how much extra funding he intends to make available for the teaching of Welsh, as a consequence of changes in the national curriculum.
  569
  Sir Wyn Roberts
  I shall write to the hon. Gentleman and place a copy of my letter in the Library of the House.

  ReChem International
  Mr. Murphy
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he intends to visit the ReChem International plant at Pontypool.

  Mr. David Hunt
  I have no present plans to do so.

  Mr. Murphy
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he now intends to hold a public inquiry into ReChem International, Pontypool, following the latest findings by the university of East Anglia.

  Mr. David Hunt
  The University of East Anglia's interim report, based on existing data, is an interim stage in the comprehensive independent survey of PCBs and their degradation products which I announced in August 1990 in acceptance of the recommendation of the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs. The survey will take another 18 months to complete. On its conclusion, a comprehensive report of its findings will be made publicly available.

  Nursery Education
  Mr. Murphy
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list those Welsh counties which provide nursery education in Wales; and how many full and part-time places in those counties are offered.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  The number of pupils aged under five receiving education at January 1990 is given in the tables 2.03 and 2.04 of "Statistics of Education in Wales: Schools No. 4 1990", a copy of which is in the Library of the House. Information about the number of places available is not held centrally.

  Further Education
  Mr. Murphy
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received in Wales regarding the transfer of post-16 year education in colleges from the local authorities to the Welsh Office; and how many were(a) in favour and (b) against.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  There have been 472 responses to the White Paper "Education and Training for the 21st Century". The proposal in the White Paper is to transfer responsibility for further education and sixth form colleges from the local education authorities to a new further education funding council for Wales. Of the total number of responses received, 11 opposed the transfer. The great majority of responses did not comment on this aspect.

  Council House Waiting Lists
  Mr. Murphy
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many people are currently on council house waiting lists in Wales.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  This information is not held centrally. Valid comparison between different local authorities' lists is hindered by divergence in local authority practice.

  Warden Schemes
  Mr. Murphy
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many local authority OAP warden schemes were constructed in Wales last year.
  570
  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  This information is not collected centrally. However, the number of local authority dwellings completed with wardens for the elderly in 1990 was 164.

  Council Housing
  Mr. Murphy
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many local authority houses were constructed in Wales last year.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  A total of 551 local authority dwellings were completed during 1990.

  Local Government Reorganisation
  Mr. Murphy
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he intends to announce his decision on local government reorganisation in Wales, following the latest consultation exercise.

  Mr. David Hunt
  In due course. The consultation period ends on 31 October 1991.

  Council Tax
  Mr. Murphy
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he intends to introduce a council tax in Wales.

  Mr. David Hunt
  On 1 April 1993.

  School Buildings
  Mr. Murphy
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how much extra capital funding for the repair and replacement of old school buildings in Wales he intends to provide in the current and forthcoming financial years.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  Our plans for 1991–92 were announced last December. Assumed gross provision for education, at £220·8 million represented a 24 per cent. increase over the previous financial year. I expect the decision regarding the level and distribution of capital resources to local authorities for 1992–93 to be made known towards the end of November 1991.

  Grant-maintained Schools
  Mr. Murphy
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many schools have applied to optout of local authority control; and what proportion of schools in Wales this number constitutes.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  Four secondary schools and one infant school have applied for grant-maintained status. This represents 0·23 per cent. of the total number of schools in Wales.

  Llantarnam Bypass
  Mr. Murphy
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he expects the Llantarnam bypass to be(a) started and (b) completed.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  The A4042 Llantarnam bypass scheme is planned to start before April 1994 subject to satisfactory completion of engineering design and statutory procedures and the availability of finance. It will take about two years to complete.

  Heads of the Valley Road
  Mr. Murphy
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he plans to upgrade the heads of the valley road to a dual carriageway.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  Plans to dual the heads of the valley road were announced in May. The start of construction depends on completion of engineering design and statutory procedures and the availability of finance. A start is unlikely before 1997. Engineering design consultants are to be commissioned shortly.

  M4
  Mr. Murphy
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he has any plans to widen the M4 in Wales.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  My right hon. Friend announced on 14 May my intention to widen the M4 between Castleton and Coryton to a three-lane dual carriageway and to provide a relief motorway around Newport in the longer term.

  Mr. Murphy
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he expects construction work on the Baglan stretch of the M4 to be completed.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  The Baglan-Lonlas section of the M4 is expected to be completed around the end of 1994.

  Second Severn Crossing
  Mr. Murphy
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he intends to increase funding to the Gwent county council as a consequence of the building, maintenance and policing of the second Severn crossing.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  The cost of building and maintenance will be the responsibility of the concessionaire for the period of concession. Policing is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. I understand that the chief constable plans to bid for extra manpower from 1993–94.

  Mr. Murphy
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he expects construction work to commence on the second Severn crossing.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  The construction period is planned to commence shortly after Royal Assent of the Severn Bridges Bill.

  Direct Service Organisations
  Mr. Gwilym Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he has received any responses to the statutory notices he issued to local authorities in Wales in respect of financial losses made by their direct service organisations.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  Responses have been received from all the authorities, and I shall give careful consideration to them. Councils must be given every opportunity to provide their services in a way that gives best value to the chargepayer, and I believe that to achieve this it is essential to ensure that the private sector is given every opportunity of competing effectively. I believe that there is scope for improving the current competition arrangements, and for widening the range of activities open to tendering from private companies, and we shall be considering how these objectives can be attained.

  Hospitals
  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (1) if he will list the grants or other financial help being given by his Department direct to each hospital in Wales in the present financial year(a) to improve patient care and (b) for any purposes other than for preparing an application for trust status;

  (2) if he will list the grant figure being given by his Department to each hospital in Wales which is choosing to remain as a unit managed directly by the local health authority.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  [holding answer 17 October 1991]: My right hon. Friend has no powers to make allocations direct to particular hospitals.

  Mr. Michael
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales, if he will list the figure given or offered by his Department to each hospital in Wales towards the costs of drawing up an application for trust status.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  [pursuant to his reply, 17 October 1991, c. 208]: Self-governing trusts are the way forward for the provision of services in the NHS in Wales. Decisions to apply for trust status are for units to take in the light of their local circumstances but health authorities have an important enabling role to play. I shall be looking for confirmation that their boards and managements are co-operating fully in their units' aspirations and assisting the application process.

SOCIAL SECURITY

  Pensioners' Incomes
  Mr. Andrew Bowden
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what percentage of pensioner households have been dependent on state pensions and benefits for at least 75 per cent. of their income in each of the last 10 years.

  Miss Widdecombe
  I will write to my hon. Friend as soon as this information is available.

  Pensions
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what is his Department's estimated percentage of total pensioners who will be drawing a state earnings-related pension in(a) 1992, (b) 1995, (c) 2000, (d) 2005, (e) 2010, (f) 2015, (g) 2020 and (h) 2025, respectively.

  Miss Widdecombe
  The information is not available in the form requested.

  Benefits
  Mr. McMaster
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will give his most recent estimate of DSS benefits unclaimed for the financial year 1990–91 and the Government resources allocated to identifying individuals in that category.

  Mr. Jack
  The latest available information on the take-up of the income-related benefits is for 1987 and is contained in the published "Estimates of Take-up", a copy of which is available in the Library.
  573
  Information about the resources for identifying individuals who may be eligible for such benefit could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what is his estimate of the likely impact of SI 1991, No. 1950 on eliminating backdated claims for benefit and the numbers affected; and if he will make a statement.

  Miss Widdecombe
  The amendment regulations in SI 1991, No. 1950 define more explicitly the circumstances in which unlimited arrears of benefit are payable on review in cases of official error. They carry forward in a more specific format the provisions of the previous regulation 72. It is still possible, therefore, for claimants to obtain unlimited arrears of benefit provided that there is evidence to show that there has been official error.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what is his estimate of the likely impact of SI. 1991, 1520 on reducing entitlement to family credit and income support and the numbers affected; and if he will make a statement.

  Miss Widdecombe
  SI 1991 No. 1520 amends the Family Credit (General) Regulations 1987. It reduces the number of hours which a person will need to work to satisfy the remunerative work rule in family credit from 24 to 16 hours from April 1992. Otherwise it contains only minor amendments.

  The change in the hours rule will not reduce entitlement to family credit. On the contrary, it will bring many more families into eligibility. We estimate that around 45,000 families on income support and working 16 or more hours a week will become eligible for family credit in April 1992. Around 30,000 of them will be entitled to more family credit than they would otherwise receive in income support. For the remainder, there will be protection arrangements which will enable them to continue to receive income support, where appropriate on top of their family credit.

  We expect that a further 35,000 families with a parent who is already working 16 hours or more will come on to family credit in due course after April 1992. In the longer term we expect the reduction in the qualifying hours rule to attract many more people into work and on to family credit and thus become better off.

  Separate provisions will ensure that an estimated 15,000 people without dependent children working between 16 and 24 hours a week and receiving income support at the point of change will continue to be entitled to that benefit from April 1992.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security, pursuant to his answer of 18 October,Official Report, columns 275–76, if he will give the number and

  Year

  Unemployed claimants

  As proportion of all claimants receiving help with mortgages Per cent

  Lone parents

  As proportion of all claimants receiving help with mortgages Per cent

  Supplementary Benefit

  1981

  139,000

  71

  36,000

  18

  1982

  191,000

  81

  40,000

  17

  1983

  182,000

  75

  49,000

  20

  1984

  200,000

  72

  54,000

  19

  1986

  244,000

  69

  66,000

  19

  574
  percentage of the total of those in receipt of (a) income support pensioner premium. (b) retirement pension, (c) SERPS, (d) a and b, (e) a and c, (f) b and c.

  Miss Widdecombe
  I will write to the hon. Member shortly.

  Services, Dearne Valley
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what was the result of his Department's questionnaire sent to a random selection of clients. requesting their views on the proposed changes in the Dearne Valley area of centralising his Department's services; and if he will list the questions asked and the responses received to them.

  Miss Widdecombe
  The organisation of work in local offices is a matter for Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency. He will write to the hon. Member and copies will be placed in the Library and the Public Information Office.

  Funeral Expenses
  Sir John Farr
  To ask the Secretary of' State for Social Security for w hat reasons his Department refused to authorise the funeral expenses of the late Mrs. Ivy Butlin, St. Bernards Hallaton Manor, Leicestershire.

  Mr. Scott
  The administration of the social fund is a matter for Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency. He will write to my hon. Friend and copies will be placed in the Library and the Public Information Office.

  Mortgage Assistance
  Sir Ian Gilmour
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what is his latest estimate of the number and proportion of unemployed claimants and lone parents on income support with mortgages to pay; how many are having their mortgage interest paid by his Department; and what were the comparable figures for each year from 1981 to 1985.

  Miss Widdecombe
  Information on the number of people on income support with mortgages to pay is not routinely collected. However, amounts may be included in the assessment of income support for interest on loans taken out to buy the homes, or to make certain essential repairs and improvements to the home. Estimates of the numbers and proportion of unemployed claimants and lone parents with amounts for mortgage interest included in the assessment of supplementary benefit from 1981–86 are given in the table, as are the latest available figures for income support:
  575

  Year

  Unemployed claimants

  As proportion of all claimants receiving help with mortgages Per cent

  Lone parents

  As proportion of all claimants receiving help with mortgages Per cent

  Income Support

  1990

  88,000

  28

  77,000

  25

  Source: Annual Statistical Enquiries.

  Notes: Figures for numbers of claimants are rounded to the nearest 1,000.

  Figures from 1983 onwards are not comparable with earlier figures because they were collected on a different basis.

  No Enquiry was undertaken in 1985.

  Supplementary Benefit was replaced by Income Support in 1988.

  Residential Care Homes
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what provision his Department is making to provide for the shortfall between the fees charged by residential homes and nursing homes and the level of income support under community care.

  Miss Widdecombe
  The present system of income support limits will be preserved for existing claimants who are resident in homes when the new funding structure is introduced in April 1993. As now, under those arrangements there will be limits to the level of benefit available for different types of care and these will be reviewed regularly. Subject to the normal qualifying conditions, those whose fees are at or below the limit will have their charges met in full.

  Mr. McMaster
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will publish a table showing the rates of supplemental payment for individual elderly people in residential accommodation in(a) local authority homes for the elderly, (b) homes for the elderly operated by voluntary organisations, (c) nursing homes operated by voluntary organisations, (d) homes for the elderly operated by the private sector and (e) nursing homes operated by the private sector; and if he will make a statement.

  Miss Widdecombe
  In local authority residential accommodation, income support of £41·60 may be paid towards the minimum charge, together with £10·40 for personal expenses.

  Income support up to the following national limits may be paid to people in independent and voluntary homes:

  Limit (£ per week)

  Residential care homes

  Elderly and other (including physically disabled over pension age)

  160

  Very dependent or blind elderly

  185

  Mentally ill

  170

  Suffering from drug or alcohol dependency

  170

  Mentally handicapped

  195

  Physically disabled and disablement began under pension age

  230

  Nursing homes

  Elderly and other (including physically disabled over pension age)

  255

  Mentally ill

  255

  Suffering from drug or alcohol dependency

  255

  Mentally handicapped

  260

  Physically disabled and disablement began under pension age

  290

  Terminal illness

  275

  An amount of £11·40 is added for personal expenses in both residential care and nursing homes.
  576
  In Greater London, the limits may be increased by an amount of £23 in residential care homes and £33 in nursing homes.

  On 21 October, at Columns 639–657, my right hon. Friend, the Secretary of State, announced proposals for substantial increases in all these limits from April 1992.

  Local Offices, Doncaster
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security when he next plans to visit the local offices of his Department covering the Doncaster area, to assess the effectiveness and efficiency with which these offices deal with claims.

  Miss Widdecombe
  The effectiveness and efficiency of local offices is a matter for Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency. Ministers have no plans to visit the agency's offices in the Doncaster area.

  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what are the current targets for his Department's offices covering the Doncaster area for meeting(a) delivery and (b) accuracy for benefits administered.

  Miss Widdecombe
  The setting of targets for district offices is a matter for Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive at the Benefits Agency. He will write to the hon. Member and copies will be placed in the Library and the Public Information Office.

  Pensioners
  Sir Ian Gilmour
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security, further to his replies to the right hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham,Official Report, 20 May, column 388–9, how many of the 610,000 single pensioners with less than £5 a week in addition to their state pensions. including supplementary benefit, were in receipt of supplementary housing pension; and how many were in receipt of housing benefit.

  Miss Widdecombe
  I will write to my right hon. Friend as soon as possible.

  Mr. Andrew Bowden
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security whether, pursuant to his answer to the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Riddick) of 23 July,Official Report, columns 541–43, on pensioners' incomes, he will give the same analysis for each quintile of pensioners' incomes.

  Miss Widdecombe
  I refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave him on 18 October at columns 273–74.

  Mr. Andrew Bowden
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what would have been the value of the state retirement pension for(a) a single person and (b) a married couple for each of the years 1980 to 1991 if it had been uprated in line with average earnings or increase in prices, whichever was the higher.
  577
  Miss Widdecombe
  I refer my hon. Friend to my reply to him on 14 October at columns 52–53.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security further to his reply to the hon. Member for Nottingham, North of 18 October on persons in receipt of state pensions and SERPS, if he will give figures on the same basis as the current table, showing the numbers in each category had the scheme remained unaltered since 1979.

  Miss Widdecombe
  The information requested could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security, further to his answer to the hon. Member for Nottingham, North of 18 October on persons in receipt of state pensions and SERPS, what social security characteristics and qualifications are common to the individuals currently receiving £29 or more as a SERPS pension.

  Miss Widdecombe
  I will write to the hon. Member shortly.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what is the maximum amount of additional pension from state earnings-related pension currently being paid to any individual.

  Miss Widdecombe
  I understand from Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency, that the information is not readily available and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Social Fund
  Mr. Maxton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many claimants applied for grants or loans under the social fund during the financial year 1990–91 in each of the benefit offices in Kincardine and Deeside constituency; how many were turned down and for what reason; what was the average size of the grant, crisis loan or budgetary loan in the year; and if he will provide comparable figures for the first three months of 1991–92.

  Mr. Scott
  The administration of the social fund is a matter for Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency. He will write to the hon. Member and copies will be placed in the Library and the Public Information Office.

  Mr. Maxton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will list for each social security office in(a) Kincardine and Deeside district and (b) Aberdeen district the numbers of social fund applications (i) submitted and (ii) rejected on grounds of insufficient priority in each of these categories (1) grants, (2) budget loans and (3) crisis loans in each year since 1988–89 and the most recent figures for the first months of 1991–92.

  Mr. Scott
  I understand from Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency, that the information is not readily available and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will give the figures for the latest and previous years as to how many applications there have 578
  been to the various components of the social fund in Nottingham; how many have been accepted or refused, giving percentage for each and the grounds for refusal; and what percentage of loans have been recovered.

  Mr. Scott
  I understand from Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency, that the information is not readily available and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Single Parents
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many single parents in each of the three parliamentary constituencies covering Doncaster receive income support; and what were the comparable figures for(a) 12 months, (b) 24 months, (c) 36 months and (d) 48 months ago.

  Miss Widdecombe
  I understand from Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency, that the information is not available and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Grants and Loans, Scotland
  Mr. Maxton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will list the initial financial allocations in the current financial year for(a) grants, (b) budget loans and (c) crisis loans for each social security office in Scotland; and if he will give any additional allocations made to Scottish social security offices, respectively, after April.

  Mr. Scott
  Details of the initial April 1991 allocations made to Scottish social security district offices for social fund loans and grants are held in the Library. Details of additional allocations made since the start of the current financial year were placed in the Library after the end of the summer recess.

  Allocations made to each district in respect of loans are not further divided into separate crisis and budgeting loan sections.

  Seasonal Unemployment
  Mr. Barry Field
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security when he last reviewed the rules governing seasonal unemployment.

  Miss Widdecombe
  Following a review of the unemployment benefit scheme in 1988 the legislative provisions preventing the payment of benefit to seasonal workers during their off-season were repealed by the Social Security Act 1989. The Act also introduced the requirement for unemployed claimants to show that they are actively seeking work as a basic condition of entitlement to benefit.

  Private Security Firms
  Mr. George
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will list the number of private security firms currently employed by his Department, the number of employees for each firm on the contract, the total value of each contract and the total value of all contracts for each financial year since 1984–85.

  Mr. Jack
  I will write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Community Charge
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what is the estimated cost to public funds of poll tax benefit to eligible water consumers in(a) the last and (b) the present financial year.

  Miss Widdecombe
  Community charge benefit helps people on low incomes pay their personal community charge and collective community charge contributions. There is no benefit specifically designed to help claimants pay water charges.

  National Insurance Contributions
  Mr. Butler
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what is his estimate of the number of people who have been reclassified by his Department as employed rather than self-employed for the purpose of national insurance contributions since 1979.

  Mr. Jack
  I understand from Miss Ann Chant, the chief executive of the Contributions Agency, that the information is not available.

DUCHY OF LANCASTER

  Private Security Firms
  Mr. George
  To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster if he will list the number of private security firms currently employed by his Department, the number of employees for each firm on the contract, the total value of each contract and the total value of all contracts for each financial year since 1984–85.

  Mr. Chris Patten
  None.

HOUSE OF COMMONS

  House of Commons Broadcasting
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will list all the individuals and organisations who currently have access to the live feed of television pictures of the House.

  Mr. MacGregor
  The information requested is as follows:

  The organisations and individuals within the House and its outbuildings who receive a clean television feed from the Chamber are: Mr. Speaker; Mr. Speaker's Secretary; the Chairman of Ways and Means; the supervisor of broadcasting; the parliamentary sound archive unit; and the Press Gallery (within which some broadcasting organisations have made their own separate arrangements). There are also monitors in each of the Division Lobbies. Although some Government Departments have arranged through the Central Office of Information to take the clean feed, this facility does not apply to Ministers' rooms in the House. The Select Committee on Broadcasting has considered on a number of occasions whether Members should be allowed to receive the clean feed in their rooms but, hitherto, has taken the view that that would be costly and intrusive, and might discourage attendance in the Chamber. The Committee has said, however, that it will keep the matter under review.
  580
  So far as organisations outside the House are concerned, all the main broadcasters within the United Kingdom (that is, the BBC, ITV, Channel 4, BSkyB and cable companies) are entitled under the terms of the first report of the Select Committee on Televising of Proceedings of the House of Session 1988–89 to receive the clean feed. As regards foreign-based broadcasters, BBC and ITN make available on the daily Eurovision news exchange extracts from the clean feed of up to two minutes, whilst House of Commons Broadcasting Unit Ltd. (now Parliamentary Broadcasting Unit Ltd., PARBUL) has licensed WTN and Visnews to supply overseas customers with material from the House of Commons of not more than five minutes duration. In addition, a large number of foreign broadcasters have been licensed to take longer coverage, including:

  Country

  Company

  Australia

  ABC

  Channel 9

  Canada

  CBC

  Germany

  ARD

  ZDF

  Hong Kong

  TVB News

  Asia TV

  Ireland

  RTE

  Japan

  NHK

  United States

  ABC

  CBS

  CNN

  C-Span

  NBC

  The Press Association has been licensed to provide newspapers with still photographs of the Chamber. These are made, using a freeze-frame technique, from a clean feed supplied for the purpose.

  There are a further 26 organisations, mainly in broadcasting or the press, who are already authorised to take a clean sound feed and who on the basis of a policy decision taken by the Select Committee are also entitled, without the need to seek separate permission, to take a clean television feed if they wish. Very few of these organisations have in fact exercised their right to receive the television feed, although precise information about their identity is not readily available since, as indicated, they do not need the further approval of the Select Committee to do so. The full list of 26 is as follows:

  British Forces Broadcasting Service

  Manx Radio

  South African Broadcasting Corporation

  National Public Radio (USA)

  Radio stations affiliated to the National Association of Hospital Broadcasting Organisations

  Scandinavian Broadcasting (Danish [DR], Finnish [YLE], Norwegian and Swedish radio and television)

  Voice of America

  Falkland Islands Broadcasting

  Associated Press Ltd.

  IBS News Ltd.

  Radio and Television Hong Kong

  Radio Basildon

  London Broadcasting Co. Ltd. (who are authorised to supply the feed to national newspapers)

  Israel Broadcasting Authority

  Norddeutscher Rundfunk Hamburg

  581

  Westdeutscher Rundfunk Cologne

  Deutsche Welle, Cologne

  Wall Street Journal London Bureau

  Reuters Ltd.

  Central Electricity Generating Board (CEGB)

  Sound Productions (Overseas Promotions) Ltd.

  TV Asahi

  Christian Science Monitor

  Telerate Europe/Gulf

  Bank of England

  New York Times London Bureau

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will list those individuals and organisations who received the live coverage of the House in the period when it was covered by satellite.

  Mr. MacGregor
  I assume that the hon. Member is referring to the period of a few weeks at the end of 1989 when continuous coverage of the House's proceedings was broadcast on an experimental basis on a temporarily spare channel on one of the Astra satellites. The service was accordingly available to anyone with suitable equipment for receiving the transmissions direct from the Astra satellite or via a local cable network carrying the relevant Astra channel. This did not, however, apply to the House or any of its outbuildings, since the Services Committee had not at that stage approved the principle of access to satellite and cable services.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Lord President of the Council (1) if he will list those individual organisations within the precincts of the House which can receive the cable or satellite signal of the sittings of the Commons and, in each case, by what authority they are permitted to do so:

  (2) by what route hon. Members can be authorised to receive the cable or satellite signal of the proceedings of the House;

  (3) if he will make a statement on the installation of a cable television service to cover the proceedings of the House and the access which hon. Members will have in their offices to the service.

  Mr. MacGregor
  At present, no one within the House or its outbuildings is either authorised, or has the technical capability, to receive cable or satellite television channels, whether or not they might carry live, continuous coverage of the House's proceedings. United Artists, for instance, intends to incorporate such a dedicated channel, from January 1992, into its local cable services. Special access to CNN's news service was, however, provided on a temporary basis, and at a single viewing point, during the Gulf war.

  A study to determine the cost and feasibility of installing such facilities on a permanent basis is being carried out by the Parliamentary Works Office and will be considered in the near future by the relevant domestic Committees established as part of the Ibbs recommendations. If the hon. Member has any specific query about this matter he should take it up direct with the appropriate Committees.

  Members' Facilities
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Lord President of the Council what examinations or analyses are currently being undertaken into Members' facilities, salaries and allowances; and by whom.
  582
  Mr. MacGregor
  As the hon. Member knows, a Select Committee of the House is currently looking into the hours of sittings of the House, and the Top Salaries Review Body is currently reviewing the office costs allowance.

  Noteworthy studies into the improvement of facilities for Members include preliminary planning for Phase 2 of the new parliamentary building by Michael Hopkins and Partners; an examination of the feasibility of converting the St. Stephen's Tavern premises for use by groups of Members' guests by Touche Ross and Co. and PSA Projects; a preliminary brief for the conversion in 1992 of the Members' and Strangers' Cafeterias for use by Members and their guests by Alex Gordon Partnerships; a study of further measures to facilitate access to and in the House for disabled Members and the public; an investigation into the cost and feasibility of introducing a broad band cable network to the House, which has been commissioned by the Parliamentary Works Office. It is also understood that the Director of Works on behalf of both Houses is arranging for consultants to conduct an examination of the cleaning arrangements for the Palace.

  Correspondence
  Mr. Michael Spicer
  To ask the Lord President of the Council when the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South can expect an answer to his letters dated 15 August and 30 September.

  Mr. MacGregor
  I shall write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Office Costs Allowance
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will make a statement on the progress of the Hay management consultants' study and the Office of Manpower Economics contribution to the Top Salaries Review Body review of the office costs allowance.

  Mr. MacGregor
  As I announced on 25 July 1991, at column 815, I have asked the Top Salaries Review Body to conduct a review of the office costs allowance. The conduct of the review is a matter for the TSRB, but I understand that it is proceeding according to the agreed timetable.

  Parliamentary Questions
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Lord President of the Council when he intends to respond to the recommendations of the third report of 1990–91 on the Select Committee on Procedure (HC 178) on parliamentary questions.

  Mr. MacGregor
  [holding answer 14 October 1991]: I am presently giving careful consideration to the report and will respond as soon as is practicable.

  Mr. McMaster
  To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will introduce a motion to amend the order of 27 May 1988 on the Procedure Committee to establish a Sub-Committee to decide which parliamentary questions that exceed the disproportionate cost threshold should be answered by Ministers; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. MacGregor
  No. The threshold is not binding, and it must be for Ministers to decide how to reply.

  Marchioness Accident Report
  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will make a statement concerning the availability to hon. Members of the report on the Marchioness disaster, published on 15 August; and what action he has taken, or intends to take, to ensure that documents of similar importance are available to hon. Members immediately following their publication.

  Mr. MacGregor
  [holding answer 14 October 1991]; There are no set guidelines covering the availability of non-command documents to hon. Members; it is up to Departments themselves to decide which documents they wish to deposit in the House.

  As regards the report on the Marchioness disaster, I understand no copies were deposited in the Vote Office, but some copies were available in the Library.

  Hon. Members can of course also order publications on "green form" basis from HMSO.

  POLIS
  Mr. McMaster
  To ask the Lord President of the Council what procedures hon. Members should follow to gain direct access to POLIS in their offices within the House.

  Mr. MacGregor
  Hon. Members wishing to have direct access to POLIS must already have a personal computer with modem and communications software installed in their office. The modern must be connected to a telephone line. They should apply to the Head of Computer and Technical Services Section, House of Commons Library, giving the speed and type of modem. She can then arrange for the necessary password to be assigned and for signing-on instructions to be issued to the Member.

  As I informed the House on 8 July (Official Report. columns 727–30), the installation of a House-wide data network is under consideration. If this is approved, POLIS will be accessible through the new network rather than the telephone system.

  Mr. McMaster
  To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will take steps to ensure that hon. Members may have direct access to POLIS in their constituency offices and/or homes.

  Mr. MacGregor
  Hon. Members in possession of a personal computer with a modem and communications software can have direct access to POLIS from their constituency offices and/or homes through the telephone system. The only costs to Members are the telephone call charges: the cheapest method for those located outside the London telephone area is to have a contract with British Telecom for access to the packet switching system (PSS).

  Communications Facilities
  Mr. Atkinson
  To ask the Lord President of the Council what facilities exist for hon. Members to receive facsimile communications from constituents at the House.

  Mr. MacGregor
  Constituents may send facsimile messages for hon. Members direct to any Member's personal facsimile machine; alternatively a Member may arrange to receive a message through the Faxmail system at the Central Lobby post office if he or she accepts the charge for transmission and handling.

  Agencies (Replies to Members)
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Lord President of the Council when he expects to reply to the recommendation of the Procedure Committee that replies from agency chief executives to parliamentary questions referred to them by Ministers should appear in the Official Report.

  Mr. MacGregor
  [holding answer 21 October 1991]: The Government expect to publish their response early in the new Session in the course of its reply to the latest Treasury and Civil Service Committee report on "next steps", which addressed the same issue.

HEALTH

  Long-term Patients
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what safeguards are in force to avoid misuse of long-term patients' private money savings by hospital authorities;

  (2) what safeguards are currently in force to prevent the misuse of patients' moneys when a long-stay patient is transferred from a national health service hospital into a private nursing home; and if he will make a statement;

  (3) if he will list for what purposes long-stay patients' private moneys can be used by hospital authorities.

  Mr. Dorrell
  Guidance to health authorities on the custody, deposit, investment and disposal of patients' money is contained in HM(71)90, a copy of which is in the Library. Patients' moneys may be used in a variety of ways provided these are to the personal benefit of the patient and take account of their wishes in so far as these can be ascertained. They may not be spent by health authorities on items which authorities themselves are responsible for providing. Where a patient is discharged from NHS care into a private nursing home, the patient's money may not be retained by the NHS. If the patient is not capable of arranging his own affairs, the circumstance should be brought to the attention of the Court of Protection, which is responsible for ensuring the proper expenditure of any funds and that the proper benefits are claimed. The Department will be writing to health authorities and NHS trusts to ensure that both directly managed units and NHS trusts observe good practice in handling these moneys.

  Health Service, Doncaster
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what is the current availability of the number of beds available to(a) national health service patients and (b) private patients, in (i) Doncaster royal infirmary and (ii) Mexborough Montagu hospital; and what the position was 12 months ago.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The information is given in the table.

  NHS and private beds

  NHS beds

  Private beds

  March

  Doncaster Royal Infirmary

  Montagu Hospital

  Doncaster Health Authority2

  1990

  857

  154

  3

  19911

  829

  160

  3

  585
  1 Provisional.

  2 No amenity beds recorded in Doncaster health authority.

  Source: NHS bed figures KH03 (KH3Q) return (site level);

  Private bed figures KHO2 return (district level).

  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will give the current(a) waiting time and (b) waiting

  Doncaster District Health Authority

  31 March 1990

  31 March 1991

  Specialty

  Total patients waiting

  Patients waiting over 1 year

  Patients waiting over 2 years

  In-patients treated in year 1989–90

  Total patients waiting

  Patients waiting over 1 year

  Patients waiting over 2 years

  In-patients treated in year 1990–911

  100—General Surgery

  1,029

  109

  13

  7,645

  1,298

  217

  13

  7,851

  101—Urology

  0

  0

  0

  33

  0

  0

  0

  0

  110—Trauma and Orthopaedics

  533

  131

  52

  3,185

  428

  47

  0

  3,198

  120—ENT

  1,786

  445

  24

  2,447

  1,824

  598

  70

  2,496

  130—Ophthalmology

  439

  61

  6

  982

  563

  161

  6

  963

  140—Oral Surgery

  230

  20

  5

  518

  268

  20

  4

  498

  180—Accident and Emergency

  0

  0

  0

  48

  0

  0

  0

  0

  190—Anaesthetics

  0

  0

  0

  6

  0

  0

  0

  0

  501—Obs and Gyn (Obs)

  0

  0

  0

  6,164

  0

  0

  0

  6,703

  502—Obs and Gyn (Gyn)

  621

  13

  1

  5,301

  472

  58

  1

  5,093

  300—General Medicine

  1

  0

  0

  8,927

  0

  0

  0

  8,758

  303—Haematology (Clinical)

  0

  0

  0

  217

  0

  0

  0

  116

  330—Dermatology

  4

  0

  0

  0

  4

  0

  0

  221

  340—Thoracic Medicine

  0

  0

  0

  48

  0

  0

  0

  33

  360—Genito-urinary Medicine

  0

  0

  0

  34

  0

  0

  0

  51

  410—Rheumatology

  25

  1

  0

  464

  18

  3

  0

  507

  420—Paediatrics

  0

  0

  0

  7,782

  0

  0

  0

  7,788

  430—Geriatric Medicine

  0

  0

  0

  2,462

  2

  0

  0

  2,877

  610—General Practice (Maternity)

  0

  0

  0

  399

  0

  0

  0

  300

  700—Mental Handicap

  0

  0

  0

  106

  2

  0

  0

  58

  710—Mental Illness

  33

  16

  1

  1,130

  3

  0

  0

  1,060

  711—Child and Adolescent Psychiatry

  0

  0

  0

  28

  0

  0

  0

  32

  715—Old Age Psychiatry

  0

  0

  0

  0

  16

  4

  3

  253

  888—Total

  4,680

  795

  102

  47,926

  4,898

  1,108

  97

  48,887

  1 In-paitents treated figures for 1990–91 are provisional.

  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many hospital beds are currently available in Doncaster for(a) medical, (b) surgical, (c) maternity, (d) geriatric and (e) other health care; and what the comparable figures were (i) 12 months, (ii) 24 months, (iii) 36 months and (iv) 48 months previously.

  Mr. Dorrell
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Sickle Cell Anaemia
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) pursuant to his answer of 2 July,Official Report, column 117, to the hon. Member for Don Valley, if he will make it his practice to keep central records of lists by regional health authorities and by district health authorities of facilities provided for (a) sickle cell counselling, (b) sickle cell screening, (c) sickle cell ante-natal screening and (d) sickle cell post-natal screening respectively; and if he will make a statement;

  (2) pursuant to his answer to the hon. Member for Don Valley of 27 June, Official Report, column 543, if he will make it his practice to keep central records of lists by regional health authorities and by district health authorities, on the amount of funds provided for sickle cell treatment; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Dorrell
  There are no plans to do so.
  586
  lists for each specialty in the Doncaster health authority, and the number of people who have waited (i) for over one year and (ii) for over two years in each specialty; and what the position was 12 months ago.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The available information is siven in the table.

  Cross-border Referrals
  Mr. William Powell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) whether the cross-boundary referral contracts between south Lincolnshire district health authority and Peterborough district health authority for 1991–92, in which south Lincolnshire is the purchaser, covers all areas of medical specialties; and whether there have been any exclusions to such provision for(a) in-patients and (b) out-patients;

  (2) how he proposes to ensure that full and proper provision for adult psychiatry patients resident in south Lincolnshire district health authority and referred by their general practitioner to Peterborough district health authority will be provided in 1992–93 for (a) in-patients and (b) out-patients;

  (3) whether the cross-border referral contracts between south Lincolnshire district health authority and Peterborough district health authority for 1991–92, in which south Lincolnshire is the purchaser, includes full provision for adult psychiatry patients referred by their general practitioner as (a) in-patients and (b) out-patients.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The information requested is not held centrally. The hon. Member may wish to contact Dr. J. Brackenridge, the chairman of south Lincolnshire health authority, for details.
  587
  Mr. William Powell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) whether the cross-border referral contracts between Kettering district health authority and Peterborough district health authority for 1991–92, in which Kettering is the purchaser, includes full provision for adult psychiatry patients referred by their general practitioner as(a) in-patients and (b) out-patients;

  (2) how he proposed to ensure that full and proper provision for adult psychiatry patients resident in Kettering district health authority and referred by their general practitioner to Peterborough district health authority will be provided in 1992–93 for (a) in-patients and (b) out-patients;

  (3) whether the cross-boundary referral contracts between Kettering district health authority and Peterborough district health authority for 1991–92, in which Kettering district health authority is the purchaser, covers all areas of medical specialties; and whether there have been any exclusions to such provision for (a) in-patients and (b) out-patients.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The information requested is not held centrally. The hon. Member may wish to contact Mr. R. Button, the chairman of Kettering health authority, for details.

  Mr. William Powell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) whether the cross-border referral contracts between Leicester district health authority and Peterborough district health authority for 1991–92, in which Leicester is the purchaser, includes full provision for adult psychiatry patients referred by their general practitioner as(a) in-patients and (b) out-patients;

  (2) whether the cross-boundary referral contracts between Leicester district health authority and Peterborough district health authority for 1991–92, in which Leicester district health authority is the purchaser, covers all areas of medical specialties; and whether there have been any exclusions to such provision for (a) in-patients and (b) out-patients;

  (3) how he proposed to ensure that full and proper provision for adult psychiatry patients resident in Leicester district health authority and referred by their general practitioner to Peterborough district health authority will be provided in 1992–93 for (a) in-patients and (b) out-patients.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The information requested is not held centrally. The hon. Member may wish to contact Mr. N. Townsend, the chairman of Leicestershire health authority, for details.

  Mrs. Fyfe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment he has made of the adequacy of health authority budgets for extra-contractual referrals.

  Mr. Dorrell
  All health authorities have reserves set aside for extra-contractual referrals based on information about patient flows. Evidence to date suggests that in the vast majority of authorities the reserves will prove sufficient.

  Doctors and Nurses
  Mr. Pawsey
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many(a) doctors and (b) nurses are now employed in the National Health Service; and how many there were in 1979.
  588
  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  I will write to my hon. Friend.

  Creutzfeldt Jakob Disease
  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what links have been established between the virus causing bovine spongiform encephalomyelitis and the virus causing Creutzfeldt Jakob disease; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Dorrell
  Although the agents responsible for Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease and bovine spongiform encephalopathy both belong to the unique group of agents that can cause transmissible and genetic neurodegenerative diseases, there is no evidence to suggest a link between CJD and BSE.

  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what information he has available concerning the vectors for the virus causing Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The infectious agent causing CreutzfeldtJakob disease has not been confirmed as a virus and its precise nature remains uncertain. The identified routes of transmission involve the use of human dura, corneal grafts or human growth hormone, and exposure to contaminated instruments during neurosurgical procedures. In the great majority of patients undergoing these procedures the risk of transmission is minimal. A number of research projects are in progress to investigate other reasons for the incidence of CJD.

  The Department has taken action to ensure that any potentially infected human tissue referred to is no longer used. The need for additional guidance for neurosurgeons and neuropathologists is being considered by the Advisory Committee on Dangerous Pathogens.

  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) how many persons have died within the United Kingdom as a result of Creutzfeld Jakob disease; and what is the average age at death;

  (2) how many cases of Creutzfeld Jakob disease have been recorded in the United Kingdom annually since 1979.

  Mr. Dorrell
  I refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for South Shields (Dr. Clark) on 23 May at column 598 and the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, Central (Mr. Cousins) on 15 July at column 68.

  Of the 10 people who died in 1990 where Creutzfeld-Jakob disease has been confirmed, the average at death was 65·3 years.

  Acute Beds, Newham
  Mr. Leighton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many acute beds there were in the London borough of Newham(a) in 1979 and (b) at the latest available date.

  Mr. Dorrell
  In 1979 the average daily number of acute beds in NHS hospitals in the Newham health authority was 761 compared with a provisional figure of 415 in 1990–91. Bed numbers are no measure of the number of patients treated; over the same period the number of in-patients and day cases treated increased by an average of 1·8 per cent. per annum.

  Drugs Needles
  Mr. David Marshall
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment his Department has made of the risks to animals arising out of contract with needles discarded by drug users, and subsequent risk to humans; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Dorrell
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Small Businesses
  Mr. Simon Coombs
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what is his Department's policy on the payment of invoices to small and medium-sized businesses.

  Mr. Dorrell
  We seek to pay promptly all suppliers of goods and services, in accordance with agreed settlement terms. We recognise that delays in the payment of bills can cause particular difficulties for small firms. We are monitoring our payment performance in this financial year and will be issuing a guidance manual later this year which will remind staff of the need to adhere to the guidelines particularly when dealing with small firms.

  Chromium
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will list by(a) year and (b) regional health authority for the last five years, the number of cases of (i) chromium poisoning and (ii) chromium contamination that have been reported.

  Mr. Dorrell
  These figures have been collected in full only since 1989–90 and are not disaggregated by regional health authority.

  In that year there was one hospital admission in England for which the primary cause was described as chromium poisoning.

  Newham Health Authority
  Mr. Leighton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what is the complement of staff in various grades in the Newham health authority; and how many staff are in post.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  Information held centrally relates only to staff in post by main staff group and the most recent figures held are shown in the table.

  NHS non-medical staff in post by main staff groups at 30 September 1990 Newham district health authority

  Staff groups

  Whole-time equivalents1

  Medical and dental staff

  110

  Nursing and midwifery (including Agency)

  1,290

  Professional and technical (excluding Works)

  110

  Professions allied to medicine

  100

  Scientific and professional

  40

  Works

  10

  Maintenance

  50

  Administrative and clerical

  460

  Managers

  40

  Ambulance

  —

  Ancillary

  250

  Total staff

  2,460

  1 Rounded to the nearest 10.

  Source: Department of Health (SMI 3) annual census.

  Patient Statistics
  Mr. Pawsey
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many(a) in-patients and (b) out-patients were treated in the national health service for the last year that figures are available; and what were the comparable figures in 1979.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The available information is given in the table.

  Number of in-patients and out-patients treated in National Health Service hospitals in England

  In-patients

  Out-patients

  Year

  Discharges and deaths

  Finished consultant episodes1

  1979

  5,400,120

  —

  34,089,725

  1988–89

  6,585,982

  7,335,448

  36,061,032

  1990–91

  —

  27,524,192

  236,058,803

  1 Includes well babies.

  2 Provisional.

  Hospitality Costs
  Mr. Skinner
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what is the latest annual figure for the cost of hospitality provided by the Department of Health; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Dorrell
  I refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. Redmond) on 13 June 1991. at column 640. Expenditure by the Department on hospitality in the first four months of 1991–92, the latest available information, was approximately £44,000.

  Health Service Expenditure
  Mr. Knox
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what proportion of the gross national product was spent on the national health service in each of the last 25 years.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The table shows the percentage of gross domestic product spent on the NHS. GDP has been used in this presentation rather than gross national product for the sake of consistency with other sources of information on public spending such as the autumn statement and the Budget report.

  Total Government expenditure on health as a proportion of GDP

  Percentage

  1966

  3·39

  1967

  3·56

  1968

  3·56

  1969

  3·55

  1970

  3·73

  1971

  3·81

  1972

  3·93

  1973

  3·85

  1974

  4·70

  1975

  5·07

  1976

  5·07

  1977

  4·88

  1978

  4·86

  1979

  4·77

  1980

  5·16

  1981

  5·39

  1982

  5·19

  1983

  5·38

  1984

  5·32

  1985

  5·19

  591

  Percentage

  1986

  5·19

  1987

  5·17

  1988

  5·14

  1989

  5·13

  1990

  5·22

  It is estimated that in 1991–92 Government expenditure on health as a proportion of GDP will be 5·7 per cent.

  Residential Care Homes
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security further to his reply of 21 February,Official Report, column 261, if he will list the amount of money given to each local authority in order to place people in private residential care homes to meet the full fees or the shortfall in fees.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  I have been asked to reply.

  Local authorities may choose to provide residential care in their own homes or by arranging places in independent sector homes. They also have the discretion to provide financial support for people under pension age in independent sector homes.

  Central Government do not specify in detail how local authorities should allocate the overall resources available to them but rather indicate their view of appropriate spending through standard spending control totals. The total covering personal social services, including specific grants, is £4,503 million for 1991–92, an increase of 23·4 per cent. over the equivalent figure for 1990–91. Information about personal social services standard spending assessments by individual local authority is given in the Department of the Environment's standard spending assessment handbook for 1991–92, a copy of which is in the Library.

  Free Tests
  Mr. Ken Hargreaves
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he has any plans to extend the provisions for specific groups of people to receive free national health service tests; and if he will make a statement.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  There are no plans to do so.

  NHS Contracts
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will list the contracts for hospital and health services awarded so far under the competitive tendering process, by Doncaster Royal infirmary and Mexborough Montagu hospital trust; and if he will list in each case the successful tenderer, the value of the contract, and its duration.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  This information is not collected centrally. The hon. Member may wish to contact Mr. Christopher Bryant, the chairman of the trust for details.

  South East Staffordshire Health Authority
  Mr. Lawrence
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many(a) in-patients and (b) out-patients have been treated by South East Staffordshire health authority in each year since 1979.

  Mr. Dorrell
  Number of in-patients and out-patients treated by South East Staffordshire since 1979:
  592

  Year

  In-patients

  Out-patients

  Discharges and deaths

  Finished consultant episodes1

  1979

  16,395

  —

  92,999

  1980

  17,420

  —

  93,287

  1981

  17,654

  —

  101,920

  1982

  18,217

  —

  105,911

  1983

  18,000

  —

  110,314

  1984

  18,805

  —

  110,221

  1985

  20,656

  —

  112,325

  1986

  25,676

  —

  156,166

  1987–88

  28,769

  —

  157,872

  1988–89

  27,135

  29,957

  152,793

  1989–90

  —

  30,871

  159,757

  1990–91

  —

  232,378

  2160,351

  1 Includes well babies.

  2 Provisional.

  Mr. Lawrence
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many(a) hospital doctors and (b) nurses have been employed by the South East Staffordshire health authority in each year since 1979.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  I shall write to my hon. Friend.

  Mr. Lawrence
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many consultants have been employed by South East Staffordshire health authority in each year since 1979.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  This information is not available centrally. My hon. Friend may wish to contact Sir James Ackers, the chairman of West Midlands regional health authority, for details.

  Brain-damaged Babies
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will list for each(a) regional health authority and (b) district health authority the number of babies where brain damage was reported at (i) birth and (ii) within 12 months of birth and associated with brain damage at birth.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The information could be provided only at disproportionate cost.

  Waiting Lists
  Mr. Steinberg
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will give the latest figures for the time spent on national health service waiting lists for prostate operations and hysterectomies.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  During 1988–89, the latest year for which information is available centrally, the estimated median waiting time for ordinary and day cases admitted from the waiting list was six weeks for open excision of prostate and eight weeks for excision of uterus.

  NHS Trusts
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health whether he will review the proposals made by the Doncaster Royal infirmary and Mexborough Montagu hospital trust to increase the number of private beds at the Doncaster Royal infirmary; and if he will make a statement.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  NHS trusts are free to supplement their NHS income by providing facilities for
  593
  private patients as long as this does not interfere with their ability to meet their NHS obligations. The negotiations under way between the trust and a private company involve the possible rental of wards surplus to NHS requirements, as the patients have been moved into new, purpose-built accommodation. The objective is to generate additional income for the benefit of NHS patients and no patients will be adversely affected by the Doncaster project.

  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will make a statement on the reasons why Doncaster Royal infirmary and Mexborough Montagu hospital NHS trust, have applied to the National Rivers Authority for permission to abstract quantities of water from the Sherwood sandstone strata.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The National Rivers Authority granted permission to the hospital 12 months ago for use of the water for non-drinking purposes, resulting in a saving to the NHS.

  Mr. Leighton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will publish the names and professions of the proposed non-executive and executive directors of the second wave of trusts in the North East Thames region.

  Mr. Dorrell
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Mr. Kirkwood
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) how many of the second waves of hospital trusts announced by him have made provision for a nurse to be on the board of the trust;

  (2) how many of the existing trusts still have made no provision for a nurse to be on the board of the trust.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The NHS Trust Membership and Procedure Regulations 1990—Statutory Instruments 1990 No. 2024—places a statutory requirement on each trust to include a registered nurse or registered midwife as an executive director of the board, except where the trust does not provide services directly to patients or where the trust's principal function is to provide ambulance or patient transport services.

  Baby Food
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what current guidance has been given to(a) maternity units in hospitals that have been granted trust status and (b) other maternity units in England regarding offers from manufacturers of free samples of milk powder or other infant formulae.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  Maternity units in hospitals granted trust status remain part of the national health service and are, therefore, covered by the guidance contained in HC(89)21 issued to all regional. district and special health authorities in England and Wales in July 1989. It instructed them neither to accept nor distribute free samples and to refuse to accept subsidised supplies of infant formulae. A copy of HC(89)21 is in the Library. This was part of the Government's response to the World Health Organisation's programme to promote and protect breastfeeding. In addition, authorities were advised to ensure that acceptance of any gift or other commercial donation should not be seen to have influenced their purchasing choice.

  Royal Liverpool Teaching Hospital
  Mr. Alton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what representations he has received about the now withdrawn draft document concerning future commercialisation of health services at the Royal Liverpool teaching hospital; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Dorrell
  Four letters have been received about this document. In each case correspondents have been assured that all the management and the clinicians in the trust rejected the unacceptable wording which suggested that future services at the Royal Liverpool university hospital might be commercialised. The document has now been amended.

  NHS Charges
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what is the current percentage of persons in the United Kingdom who are exempt from paying for(a) eye tests. (b) dental examinations and (c) prescription charges.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  It is estimated that 40 per cent. of the population in England are entitled to free national health service sight tests and that 47·7 per cent. are entitled to free prescriptions. The information relating to dental examinations is not available in the form requested. However, of those people actually attending the dentist, approximately 42 per cent. are exempt from charges, including examination fees.

  The information relating to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland is a matter for my right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Wales, for Scotland and for Northern Ireland.

  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what are the current categories of persons in the United Kingdom who are exempt from paying for(a) eye tests, (b) dental examinations and (c) prescription charges.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The following categories of persons are exempt from paying for eye tests, dental examinations and prescription charges:

  (a) Children under 16;

  (b) Young people over 16 and under 19 in full time education;

  (c) Income Support and Family Credit recipients and their dependants;

  (d) People assessed as living on a low income under the NHS Low Income Scheme and their dependants;

  (e) War disablement pensioners whose treatment is for their accepted disability.

  Additionally, the following categories of persons are exempt from paying specific charges:

  Eye tests

  (a) People who need certain complex lenses;

  (b) People who are registered blind or partially sighted;

  (c) Diagnosed diabetics or glaucoma sufferers;

  (d) Close relatives aged 40 or over of diagnosed glaucoma sufferers;

  (e) Patients of the Hospital Eye Service.

  Denial examinations

  (a) Young People over 16 and under 18;

  (b) Women who are pregnant at the time they are accepted for treatment;

  (c) Women who have had a baby in the last 12 months.

  Precription charges

  (a) Men aged over 65, women aged over 60;

  (b) Pregnant women and women who have had a baby in the last 12 months;

  (c) People who suffer from one of a number of specified medical conditions;

  595

  (d) People who arc unable to leave home unaided because of a permanent physical disability.

  Adoption
  Mr. Thurnham
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many social services adoption inquiries have been referred to the social services inspectorate in the last year for which figures are available; how long the delays are subsequent to such referrals; and if he will make a statement.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  Information is not available in the form requested. The Department's social services inspectorate is in regular contact with local authority social services departments on all matters related to child care, including adoption. All inquiries referred to the inspectorate are dealt with as promptly as the nature of the inquiry allows.

  Mr. Thurnham
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what appeal procedure exists for would-be adopters turned down by their local authority social services departments; and if he will make a statement.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  Where an adoption agency, including a local authority, decides that a prospective adopter is not suitable to he an adoptive parent, the agency should notify the prospective adopter of its decision in writing. As a matter of good practice, the reasons for the agency's decision should also be explained to the prospective adopter in the course of a counselling interview. There is no statutory right of appeal against this decision.

  Under the Complaints Procedure Directions 1990, a local authority may consider a representation made by, or on behalf of, an individual against a decision which the local authority has made in discharging its social services functions. The directions came into force on 1 April 1991. A copy is available in the Library and in the booklet "Community Care in the Next Decade and Beyond" published by HMSO in November 1990.

  Miss Lestor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many non-British national children, and from which countries, received entry clearance to Britain with a view to adoption in(a) 1987, (b) 1988, (c) 1989 and (d)

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  [holding answer 21 October 1991]: I have been asked to reply.

  In 1990 entry clearances were issued to 113 Romanian and 54 Sri Lankan children with a view to adoption by British couples. Information is not available for children adopted in other countries, or in previous years.

  Alder Hey Children's Hospital
  Mr. Alton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will make a statement on the provision of care at Alder Hey Children's (Trust) hospital; and what representations he has received concerning incidents in the hospital mortuary and the death of a patient in a hospital corridor.

  Mr. Dorrell
  We have received no representations on the hospital mortuary at this hospital. The hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Mr. Wareing) did raise a patient death with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State last week. I understand that this case is likely to be the subject of legal proceedings.
  596
  The Royal Liverpool children's hospital has recently benefited from a £13 million investment in paediatric intensive care, which now provides treatment in the most modern facilities. The trust has reduced its waiting lists by 7 per cent. already since coming into operation in April.

  National Children's Bureau
  Mr. Thurnham
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if his Department has considered an application for an exhibition relating to the National Children Bureau entitled "Standing up for Children" to be displayed in the Upper Waiting Hall.

  Mrs. Virginiaa Bottomley
  I will write to my hon. Friend.

  Child Employment
  Mrs. Margaret Ewing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he has any plans to introduce changes to existing legislation governing child employment; and if he will make a statement.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  There are no plans to introduce changes to the Employment of Children Act 1973.

  The Children and Young Persons Act 1933 provides for local authorities to introduce bye-laws to meet local needs and employment conditions. The provisions of both primary legislation and bye-laws serve as an effective framework to protect children from exploitation.

  Sheffield Hospitals
  Mr. Hardy
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if in view of the failure of the Trent regional health authority to consult members and others who do not represent or who do not live in Sheffield but who have proper interest and relevant responsibilities in regard to the proposed change. to national health service trust status of the Children's and Western Park hospitals, he will instruct the regional authority to withdraw those proposals and recommence consultations.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  Trent regional health authority has fulfilled the requirement to consult the relevant community health councils and such other bodies and persons as it considers appropriate on these applications. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made the decision to grant NHS trust status on the basis of all the information available and has taken into account the wide range of views expressed during consultation.

  Awayday Management Consultation
  Mr. Alex Carlile
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will make a statement concerning the system of awayday management consultation in regional and area health authorities.

  Mr. Dorrell
  Management systems in regional and other health authorities are for local decision.

  NHS Salaries
  Mr. Alex Carlile
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what was the annual total cost of the salaries of administrative staff in the national health service in each of the years 1979 to date; and if he will make a statement.
  597
  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The annual total salaries and wages costs of administrative and clerical staff directly employed by health authorities in England are shown in the table.

  The administrative and clerical staff group covers a diversity of job functions and duties—including finance, personnel, information technology, senior ambulance officers, hotel services, and secretarial services. In addition, about one third of all A and C staff work in direct support of clinicians—on medical and ward records, out-patient reception, medical secretary, and health education services —thus freeing clinical staff to concentrate their direct-care expertise and training where it is most needed.

  £ thousands (cash)

  1979–80

  486,891

  1980–81

  603,565

  1981–82

  662,774

  1982–83

  707,211

  1983–84

  744,211

  1984–85

  760,058

  1985–86

  795,336

  1986–87

  850,140

  1987–88

  921,263

  1988–89

  1,018,233

  1989–901

  1,085,236

  1 The latest year currently available.

  Sources:

  1. Annual accounts of regional and district health authorities in England and those of the special health authorities for the London postgraduate teaching hospitals (Predecessor authorities prior to 1982–83).

  2. From 1985–86—annual accounts of Family Health Service Authorities (formerly Family Practitioner Committees) which became independent from district health authorities on 1 April 1985.

  Notes:

  1. The figures are gross costs and include employers' national insurance and superannuation contributions.

  2. Costs relating to the employment of non-NHS (agency. etc.) staff and the costs of employees on general and senior management grades are excluded. The Administrative and Clerical staff costs of the Prescription Pricing Authority and other special health authorities and bodies within the NHS are similarly excluded.

  Private Security Firms
  Mr. George
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will list the number of private security firms currently employed by his Department, the number of employees for each firm on the contract, the total value of each contract and the total value of all contracts for each financial year since 1984–85.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The Department employs four private security firms. The anticipated total expenditure on these contracts for 1991–92 is £800,000.

  To provide individual contract values would breach commercial confidentiality. Since a smaller number of firms were employed in earlier years, that would also be the effect of revealing the total expenditure for any previous year.

  To provide information about the number of employees involved would be prejudicial to maintaining security.

  Inflammatory Bowel Disease
  Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he has any plans to add sufferers from inflammatory bowel disease to those conditions which currently benefit from free prescriptions.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  There are already wide-ranging exemption arrangements, underpinned by the separate scheme for exemption on the ground of low income, which ensure that no one need he deterred from obtaining their necessary medication on financial grounds. Nearly 80 per cent. of NHS prescription items are currently dispensed free of charge.

  Benzodiazepines
  Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what representations he has received on the difficulties encountered by general practitioners using the yellow card scheme for prescribing drugs such as benzodiazepines.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The yellow card scheme is a voluntary scheme operated by the Committee on Safety of Medicines for the reporting of adverse reactions to medicinal products. It is not used for prescribing drugs.

  Recently, in response to representations from the medical profession. the CSM has redesigned the yellow card and has issued guidance in relation to the reporting of serious reactions to established drugs. The CSM maintains a dialogue with the medical profession and welcomes all ideas for stimulating and encouraging more reporting. A number of these ideas are under active consideration at present.

  Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what procedures are adopted by the Committee on Safety of Medicines in dealing with complaints; and what complaints the committee has considered about the use of benzodiazepines.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The Committee on Safety of Medicines operates a freepost and freephone service for the medical professions. Complaints are investigated by the professional secretariat to the CSM and all serious matters are referred to the committee for advice. Complaints about benzodiazepines have mainly related to the dependance-producing side-effects and the comparative safety profiles of certain members of the group.

  Ambulance Services
  Mr. Hardy
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will state the number of responses from individuals and organisations to the Trent regional health authority in connection with the proposal to establish the South Yorkshire Ambulance Services Trust; and what proportion of these responses expressed support for the proposal.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The regional health authority reported a total of 50 responses. The results of the public consultation exercise are available from the regional health authority. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State took full account of the comments, but they are not. of course, the only factors on which he based his decision.

  City Hospital, Nottingham
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what(a) loans, (b) debts. (c) interest payments and (d) other outstanding financial items there are between the City hospital, Nottingham, and his Department;

  (2) if he will make a statement on the possibilities open (a) to hospitals in general and (b) to the Nottingham City hospital to withdraw from opting-out if the loan repayment regime between trusts and the Government is not acceptable;

  (3) what financial arrangements exist for the purchase or transfer of existing buildings of the Nottingham City hospital from the current owners to the self governing trust;

  (4) what financial arrangements exist for the purchase or transfer of (a) new buildings and (b) the building programme of the Nottingham City hospital from the current owners to the self-governing trust;

  (5) when he (a) last visited and (b) next plans to visit Nottingham City hospital;

  (6) what is the current rate of interest payable on the 50 per cent. of fixed interest portion of the originating debt of (a) existing opted-out hospitals and (b) Nottingham City hospital; and what are both items in current terms.

  Mr. Dorrell
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Hospitals (Opting Out)
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what is the outstanding amount of loans payable to Her Majesty's Government from hospitals and other units which are currently opted-out; and what is the total of interest payments received by Her Majesty's Government on such loans.

  Mr. Dorrell
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Inter-country Adoptions
  Mr. Thurnham
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will give the number of inter-country adoptions currently being processed by his Department, by(a) country and (b) length of time for which applications have been in process.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  I will write to my hon. Friend.

  King's Fund
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will list the work commissioned by his Department from King's fund in each of the last 10 years, giving the title of each project, its principal location and the cost of each project.

  Mr. Dorrell
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Product Licensing
  Mr. Michael Morris
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what is the difference between a suspension of a product licence and a withdrawal.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  [holding answer 21 October 1991]: Section 28 of the Medicines Act 1968 enables the Licensing Authority, which is a body of Ministers, to suspend, revoke or vary a product licence for a medicinal
  600
  product issued under the Act. Under schedule 2 to this Act, Licensing Authority decisions for action under section 28 will only take effect after the licence holder has exhausted the rights provided in the Act to object to the proposal. However, the Licensing Authority may, in the interests of safety, suspend a product licence with immediate effect. In these circumstances, the licence holder is precluded forthwith from selling or supplying the product. Suspensions can only initially be for a period not exceeding three months.

  Section 62 of the same Act enables the Health Ministers, in the interests of safety, to make an order prohibiting the sale, supply or importation of any class or description of medicinal products. The particular circumstances of use are specified in the section.

  Under the standard provisions for product licences, a licence holder may be directed to withhold a batch of a medicinal product from sale or supply if it has been found not to conform with certain licensed specifications or with the provisions of the Act or any regulations made under the Act.

  The holder of a product licence may decide for commercial reasons, independent of any action by the Licensing Authority, to withdraw the product from the market. In such circumstances the licence holder notifies the Licensing Authority of its action.

  Medicines Act
  Mr. Michael Morris
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will list the sections of the Medicines Act which relate to powers to refuse supply of a prescription medicine against a named patient prescription.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  [holding answer 21 October 1991]: The Medicines Act 1968 and orders made under the Act control the safety, quality and efficacy of medicines supplied to the public. There are no powers to refuse the supply of a prescription-only medicine against a properly completed prescription from a doctor, dentist, veterinary surgeon or veterinary practitioner in accordance with section 58 of the Act and article 12 of the Medicines (Products other than Veterinary Drugs) (Prescription Only) Order 1983 provided that it is not subject to an order under section 62 prohibiting the supply of medicine on grounds of safety. A pharmacist may also refuse to supply a medicine if advised by the Medicines Control Agency. acting under section 28 of the Act, that a medicine has been withdrawn with immediate effect on grounds of safety.

  Surgery
  Ms. Harman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) if he will list for each regional health authority the average number of operations carried out in scheduled operating sessions in the year ended March 1991;

  (2) if he will list for each regional health authority the number of scheduled operating sessions which were cancelled in the year ended March 1991.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  [holding answer 21 October 1991]: I will write to the hon. Member.

  Hospital Beds, Bradford
  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many hospital beds are currently available in Bradford for(a) medical, (b) surgical, (c) maternity,

  601
  (d) geriatric and (e) other health care; and what the comparable figures were (i) 12 months, (ii) 24 months, (iii) 36 months and (iv) 48 months previously.

  Mr. Dorrell
  [holding answer 21 October 1991]: I will write to the hon. Member.

  Westminster and Chelsea Hospital
  Mr. Soley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) how the cost of the new Westminster and Chelsea hospital will be funded; what effect it will have on national health service provision in the region; and if he will make a statement;

  (2) what was the estimated cost for the new Westminster and Chelsea hospital submitted to his Department in 1987; what is the current estimate of the actual cost; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Dorrell
  [holding answer 18 October 1991]: Approval in principle for the Westminster and Chelsea hospital at a cost of £135 million was given in December 1988. The figures in the submission then made to the Department were principally intended to provide a comparison of the various options under consideration, and for this purpose did not need to include local construction costs or the effects of a likely general increase in construction costs. They were not intended to be an estimate of outturn costs.

  We now expect the total cost to be £206 million.

  When approval in principle is given to a project we now publish an estimate of the actual costs likely to be incurred.

  The project will be funded from the sale of the five surplus sites which will be vacated and from the North West Thames regional health authority's capital allocation. The new hospital will reprovide more efficiently and effectively the services currently provided on the five sites which are to become redundant.

  Medical Manpower
  Mr. Gerald Bowden
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what plans he has to review future United Kingdom medical manpower.

  Mr. Waldegrave
  [pursuant to his reply, 15 July 1991, columns 69–70]: I am pleased to announce that the following have agreed to serve on the Medical Manpower Standing Advisory Committee which will be chaired by Professor Colin Campbell. vice-chancellor of Nottingham university:

  Dr. John Ball, Chairman, Medical Practices Committee; member of the Council of the Royal College of General Practitioners;

  Professor David Bartholomew, Professor of Statistics. LSE; member, first and second Advisory Committees for Medical Manpower Planning;

  Dr. Fiona Caldicott, Dean, Royal College of Psychiatrists; Chairman, Consultant and Associate Specialist Sub-Committee of the Central Manpower Committee;

  Mr. Douglas Gentleman, Senior Registrar in Neurosurgery, South Glasgow central Hospital; member, General Medical Council;

  Professor Keith Peters, Regius Professor of Physic, Cambridge University; former Chairman of M RC Physiological Systems Board;

  Dame Rosemary Rue, DBE, former President of the BMA, and of the Medical Women's Federation;

  Professor Dorothy Wedderburn, Senior Research Fellow, Management School, Imperial College; former Principal, Royal Holloway and Bedford New College;
  602
  Dr. Robert Wilson, Principal Research Fellow in Economics, Institute of Employment Research, Warwick university.

TRADE AND INDUSTRY

  Romania
  Mr. Rowlands
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what is his latest estimate of the annual imports from Romania; and what are the major items imported.

  Mr. Sainsbury
  Information on United Kingdom trade is published monthly in Business Monitor MM20, "Overseas Trade Statistics of the United Kingdom", which is available in the Library of the House.

  Mr. Rowlands
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what information he has as to what proportion of Romania's imports and exports are(a) with the United Kingdom and (b) with the EC.

  Mr. Sainsbury
  The answer can be obtained from information in the International Monetary Fund's direction of trade statistics which is available in the House of Commons Library.

  Crown Post Offices
  Mr. Barry Field
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what plans he has to review the redundancy terms for counter staff of Crown post offices; and when were these last reviewed.

  Mr. Leigh
  The terms of employment and, where appropriate, redundancy, offered to the employees of Post Office Counters Limited are operational matters for the Post Office.

  Mr. Barry Field
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what is the average conversion ratio of Crown post offices to agencies for all the English counties; and what is the ratio in the Isle of Wight. if proposals take effect.

  Mr. Leigh
  The Post Office's Crown Office regrading programme is an operational matter for the Post Office board and I understand that the information requested is not available in the precise form requested. However, the Post Office tells me that since the start of the Crown office regrading programme in April 1989 to the end of September 1991, 390 offices have been regraded nationwide, out of a total of 1,493. In April 1989 there were eight Crown offices on the Isle of Wight, of which one had been converted to agency status by the end of September 1991. A second conversion is proposed upon the appointment of a suitable agent. I also understand that conversions to agency status are not carried out on a ratio basis as each case is carefully considered on its merits with the needs of the Post Office's customers uppermost in the Post Office's mind.

  Hospitality Costs
  Mr. Skinner
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what is the latest annual figure for the cost of hospitality provided by the Department of Trade and Industry; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Leigh
  I refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. Redmond)
  603
  on 17 June 1991 at column 39, which gave the costs of hospitality in 1989–90. Expenditure in 1991–92 is not expected to be significantly different.

  Invoice Payments
  Mr. Simon Coombs
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what is his Department's policy on the payment of invoices to small and medium-sized businesses.

  Mr. Leigh
  My Department's policy is to pay all valid invoices within 30 days of receipt of the goods or services, unless an earlier date is specified. I recognise and support the principles of prompt payment and the Department is participating in the examination of payment performance being undertaken this financial year by the Department of Employment.

  GPT, Liverpool
  Mr. Alton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will make a statement on the recent job losses at the GPT factory, Edge lane, Liverpool; what action has been taken to secure further overseas orders for System X; and what initiatives are being taken to secure alternative employment for existing employees.

  Mr. Redwood
  I am sorry to see the announcement of possible job losses at GPT. The Government's task is not to influence a company's commercial decisions but to create the right environment for success. The Government have regularly supported GPT's products and projects abroad, including System X, financially through the aid and trade provision (ATP) wherever possible. It will continue to do so. DTI officials are discussing with GPT's management ways of attracting new investment to the Liverpool site.

  Inward Investment Jobs, Scotland
  Mr. Maxton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what has been the total numbers of inward investment jobs secured in Scotland in each year since 1971; and what percentage of the United Kingdom total it represents in each year.

  Mr. Leigh
  The information required is available only from 1979 onwards and is based on information provided by the companies notified to my Department's Invest in Britain Bureau at the time of the announcement of the decision to invest and takes no account of subsequent developments. It is estimated that the numbers of inward investment jobs secured in Scotland each year since 1979, and percentages they represent of the United Kingdom total, are as follows:

  Jobs secured by inward investment in the United Kingdom

  Year

  Scotland

  United Kingdom Total

  Per cent.

  1979

  2,757

  14,310

  19·3

  1980

  4,474

  18,662

  24·0

  1981

  5,756

  16,417

  35·1

  1982

  2,258

  10,529

  21·4

  1983

  8,567

  30,803

  27·8

  1984

  10,224

  46,396

  22·0

  1985

  7,893

  44,305

  17·8

  1986

  2,488

  27,034

  9·2

  1987

  5,765

  41,935

  13·7

  1988

  7,407

  46,590

  15·3

  604

  Year

  Scotland

  United Kingdom Total

  Per cent.

  1989

  4,917

  56,468

  8·7

  1990

  10,595

  62,411

  17·0

  Totals1

  73,101

  415,860

  17·6

  1 during period.

  Microelectronics
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry how many offers were made for projects under the investment support scheme for microelectronics in(a) Wales, (b) South-East England and (c) the United Kingdom during the year 1990–91; what was the total project costs of these products, respectively; and what was the assistance offered, respectively.

  Mr. Leigh
  The programme of investment support for microelectronics closed for new applications in January 1988. No offers of assistance were made during the year 1990–91.

  Environmental Compliance
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will obtain for his departmental library a copy of the report, "Clean Up or Close Up: Environmental Compliance in Europe", prepared for industry by Davies, Arnold and Cooper Partners.

  Mr. Leigh
  Yes.

  Arms Exports
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will obtain for his departmental library a copy of the new report, "Regulating Arms Exports: A Programme for the European Community", published by the Saferworld Foundation.

  Mr. Sainsbury
  The Saferworld Foundation has sent its new report to my Department and a copy is available in its headquarters library.

  Biotechnology Industry
  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what initiatives have been taken recently by Her Majesty's Government on the development of the oiotechnology industry.

  Mr. Leigh
  [holding answer 21 October 1991]: Biotechnology features strongly in the Government nitiatives to foster future industrial competitiveness. It dominates the collaborative research between industry and he science base supported in the LINK initiative. The argest grant (£7· million) awarded under the EUREKA nitiative to encourage European collaboration between:ompanies was to a biotechnology project. Governmenl tre active in establishing a balanced regulatory regime for tuman and environmental safety, consistent with European directives; a consultative document will be ssued shortly. The second edition of the successful "Plain Man's Guide" to support/regulations has been published. And Government have collaborated with the research councils in developing a strategy to encourage take-up of

  605
  the technology from the science base, published by the Biotechnology Joint Advisory Board as "A Strategy for Industrial Strength".

  World Summit for Children
  Miss Lestor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if his Department has completed the review of its policies for inclusion in the progress report on action in the areas targeted by the World Summit for Children's declaration and plan of action; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Leigh
  [holding answer 21 October 1991]: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office is co-ordinating an exercise among all interested Whitehall Departments in order to prepare the United Kingdom's progress report on action in the areas targeted by the world summit for children's declaration and plan of action. The aim is to submit this to the UNICEF Secretariat by the end of this year.

  Children's Clothing
  Mr. Battle
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what steps the Government are taking to introduce safety standards for children's day wear clothing and in particular for shell suits.

  Mr. Leigh
  [holding answer 21 October 1991]: My Department has asked the British Standards Institution (BSI) to prepare a flammability specification for children's daywear garments that could provide the basis for informative labelling to be included in these garments.

  Mr. Alex Carlile
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if the Government will introduce fire and toxicity safety standards for children's shell suits and other children's day wear; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Leigh
  My Department has asked the British Standards Institution (BSI) to prepare a flammability specification for children's daywear garments that could provide the basis for informative labelling to be included in these garments. Discussions with the BSI are continuing.

  There is no evidence that garments present a toxicity hazard either in their made up state or in the event that they catch fire.

  Leg Irons
  Mr. Corbett
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry how many applications for licences for the export of leg irons and other similar restraining equipment have been made in each of the past three years; how many have been granted; and what were the countries of destination.

  Mr. Sainsbury
  [holding answer 21 October 1991]: No applications have been made in each of the past three years for export licences for leg irons as such. Five applications were received in 1991 for a variety of handcuffs and chains, including "oversized" cuffs. Four were for export to the United States of America and one for Ghana. The four United States of America applications were approved, but have since been revoked in so far as they relate to the "oversized" cuffs and certain chains. The application in respect of Ghana is being refused.

  Libya
  Mr. Ron Brown
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what was the value of British goods and services exported to Libya during the past 12 months; and what was the value of Libyan goods and services imported into the United Kingdom during the same period.

  Mr. Sainsbury
  Statistics on bilateral trade in services are not available. Information on United Kingdom visible trade is published monthly in Business Monitor MM20, "Overseas Trade Statistics in the United Kingdom", which is available in the Library of the House.

  Private Security Firms
  Mr. George
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will list the number of private security firms currently employed by his Department, the number of employees for each firm on the contract, the total value of each contract and the total value of all contracts for each financial year since 1984–85.

  Mr. Leigh
  This Department, including its executive agencies, currently has contracts with seven private security guarding companies. The numbers employed by each company on DTI sites are as follows: Thorn Security Services Limited (36 guards), Centuryan Security Ltd (18). Chubb Wardens Ltd (23), Euroguard Ltd (10), Securiguard Services Ltd (7). Mint Security Ltd (3), and Sterling Guards Ltd (2). The value of each contract is commercially confidential information. The total values (excluding VAT) for all contracts for the financial years 1984–85 to 1988–89 were published in the Official Report column 612, on 20 February 1990. The final figure for 1989–90 (estimated in the earlier answer) was £1,325,220; and for 1990–91, £1,678,930.

  Public Houses
  Mr. Alex Carlile
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and industry if he will make it his policy to establish a charter of rights for public house tenants faced with demands by breweries for rent increases; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Redwood
  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and have recently met each of the major brewers to urge them to adopt best practices in dealings with their tenants. As a result, those brewers not already doing so have introduced procedures for the independent arbitration or assessment of rent in cases where agreement cannot be reached in individual negotiations with their tenants. All the major brewers have also accepted the need to show flexibility to tenants who would have real difficulties in taking on a long-term lease and, within this category, to show special consideration to those nearing retirement. We shall continue to monitor closely negotiations between brewers and their tenants.

  Financial Services
  Mr. Tim Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will make a statement on progress in negotiations in the Council of Ministers on the proposed investment services directive and on the proposed capital adequacy directive.

  Mr. Redwood
  The investment services directive (ISD) was last discussed at the Council of Economic and Finance
  607
  Ministers (ECOFIN) on 8 July when we considered a compromise text tabled by the Dutch Presidency. This addressed a proposal originally suggested by France that certain transactions should be confined to "regulated markets" and that details of transactions should be published within specified time limits. No agreement was reached. ECOFIN next meets on 11 November but the Presidency has not made a decision whether the ISD will appear on the agenda. The United Kingdom Government will continue to argue for a genuinely market-opening directive which will enhance the ability of investment firms to do cross-border business within a framework of mutually agreed prudential standards.

  The draft capital adequacy directive has not yet been discussed in ECOFIN. Under the Dutch Presidency discussions are continuing in a Council working group, where there remain a number of important issues to be resolved.

  Mr. Tim Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry whether he has received from the European Commission the final text of the insurance intermediaries recommendation; whether he will publish it; and whether he proposes that it should apply to insurance intermediaries doing business in the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Redwood
  The European Commission has not yet published this recommendation. Recommendations are published in the Official Journal in the usual way. Implementation of Commission recommendations is not mandatory. We will however consider its implications carefully, and consult interested parties, once it is published.

  RECHAR
  Mr. Hardy
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what is his estimate of the total sum which will be received within the United Kingdom from the RECHAR programme if the arrangements to secure additionality are such as to meet the requirements of the European Community.

  Mr. Leigh
  [holding answer 21 October 1991]: The United Kingdom Government have applied for £109 million of grants from the RECHAR programme.

  Mr. Hardy
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he proposes to meet representatives of the European Commission to discuss the arrangements which will need to be made to allow the United Kingdom to quality for support under the RECHAR programme.

  Mr. Leigh
  [holding answer 21 October 1991]: The Commission's continued refusal to approve the United Kingdom's applications for RECHAR programmes is unreasonable. We have at present no plans for further meetings.

  Perifra Programme
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what proportion of the grant aid money devoted to the EC Perifra programme for peripheral regions with fragile economies has been allocated to areas in the United Kingdom where conversion of military bases to alternative industrial uses has been planned; if he will name the areas benefiting; and to what amount.
  608
  Mr. Leigh
  [holding answer 21 October 1991]: Grants for Perifra are available for various purposes including the economic conversion of areas affected by the new trade concessions to countries benefiting from the PHARE programme. On the United Kingdom Government's proposal, the European Commission has agreed to the following areas of the United Kingdom:

  European Commission grant approved

  Mecu

  Barrow-in-Furness

  2·086

  Wirral

  0·056

  Preston

  1·079

  Kirklees

  0·436

  Strathclyde

  1·010

  TOTAL

  4·667

  Research and Development
  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will make a statement on the level of investment in research and development by British industry.

  Mr. Leigh
  [holding answer 21 October 1991]: British industry's investment in research and development increased by over 50 per cent. in the six years to 1989 in real terms. However, United Kingdom firms are still not doing enough to match and surpass efforts of their best overseas competitors. For this, we need a major change in attitudes to innovation.

  The main effort must come from the worlds of business and education and the Government are acting as a catalyst for the many changes that are needed. An example is the recent sponsoring by DTI of the publication of the "R and D Scoreboard". This is one initiative designed to focus attention on the importance of innovation, and showed that large United Kingdom companies increased their R and D expenditure by 12 per cent. last year. The pharmaceuticals sector was exceptionally strong, with United Kingdom companies leading the world. However, the largest increases occurred in other sectors such as aerospace, containers and electricals.

  EFTA
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what is the expected timetable for the completion of the EC negotiations with EFTA.

  Mr. Sainsbury
  [pursuant to his reply, 8 July 1991, c. 256]: I am pleased to announce that at the Foreign Affairs Council (FAC) which I attended in Luxembourg with my hon. Friends, the Minister of State (FCO) and the Parliamentary Secretary (MAFF) on Monday 21 October, political agreement was reached to conclude the European Economic Area (EEA). The EEA will comprise the 19 member states of the European Community and the European Free Trade Association and is intended to enter into force on 1 January 1993. It will extend the general economic benefits of the single European market to some 375 million consumers enjoying a total GDP of nearly US$ 7,000 billion. I am confident that the United Kingdom will derive significant political and economic advantages from the creation of the EEA.

  My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary will give the House a formal report on the FAC at the earliest opportunity.

  Bulgaria
  Mr. Rowlands
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what is his latest estimate of the annual imports from Bulgaria; and what are the major items imported.

  Mr. Sainsbury
  Information on United Kingdom trade is published monthly in Business Monitor MM20, "Overseas Trade Statistics of the United Kingdom" which is available in the Library of the House.

  Mr. Rowlands
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what information he has as to what proportion of Bulgarian imports and exports are with(a) the United Kingdom and (b) with the EEC.

  Mr. Sainsbury
  The answer can be obtained from information in the International Monetary Fund's Direction of Trade statistics which is available in the House of Commons Library.

DEFENCE

  The Gulf
  Mr. Boyes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he intends to publish a White Paper on the lessons of the Gulf war.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The work to evaluate the lessons of Operation Granby is continuing, but is unlikely to be completed before the end of the year. We are considering the most appropriate method of publishing our conclusions.

  Mr. David Young
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what action was taken in respect of parcels sent to troops in the Gulf and not distributed to them; and how many such parcels reached the troops for whom they were intended and how many did not.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  Personally addressed parcels to the Gulf were, whenever possible, delivered to the individuals concerned. Parcels that arrived in the Gulf after the departure of the addressees were redirected to the individual's peacetime location.

  In addition, welfare parcels were distributed to all three services in the Gulf; any that had not been sent on closure of the BFPO 3000 appeal were redirected to service personnel in other locations.

  It is not possible to provide the statistical data requested, as neither the Post Office nor BFPO London maintained a record of individual parcels processed.

  Information Technology
  Mr. Warren
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will place in the Library a copy or details of the briefing given to suppliers of information technology equipment at the Royal Military Academy and at his headquarters concerning the information systems in which his Department is interested on future projects.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  I will write to my hon. Friend.

  Uranium
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will list the category of armaments used by the British armed forces in which depleted uranium is used.
  610
  Mr. Alan Clark
  Depleted uranium has a number of applications in defence equipment, and is particularly suitable for use in high-kinetic energy projectiles.

  NATO Ministers
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the issues discussed and decision made at(a) the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation Defence Ministers meeting in Taormina, Sicily on 17 and 18 October and (b) the North Atlantic Assembly. in Madrid on 17 October.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  At the recent meeting of the NATO nuclear planning group in Taormina, the alliance warmly welcomed the recent decisive steps towards democracy and freedom in the Soviet Union. In welcoming President Bush's recent initiative, and President Gorbachev's response, the alliance agreed that there is no requirement for NATO ground-launched short range nuclear systems. In addition to the elimination of these systems, the allies also agreed that the number of air-delivered weapons in NATO's stockpile will be greatly reduced. The total reduction in the current NATO stockpile of sub-strategic nuclear weapons in Europe will be roughly 80 per cent. The alliance however reaffirmed that nuclear weapons will continue for the foreseeable future to fulfil their essential role in the alliance's overall strategy of war prevention. NATO will therefore continue to base effective and up-to-date sub-strategic nuclear forces in Europe, but they will consist solely of dual-capable aircraft, with widespread participation in nuclear roles and peacetime basing by allies. A copy of the final communique issued at the end of the meeting has been placed in the Library of the House. The North Atlantic Assembly meeting continues until today. The subject of its plenary debate was "NATO after the Soviet Union" and reports on a range of subjects were discussed in committee.

  Scientific Research
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what basic scientific research is currently sponsored by his Department.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  None. All research sponsored by the MOD has application to the defence programme.

  Private Security Firms
  Mr. George
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will list the number of private security firms currently employed by his Department, the number of employees for each firm on the contract, the total value of each contract and the total value of all contracts for each financial year since 1984–85.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  The Ministry of Defence employs 16 commercial guarding companies. It is not our practice to provide information on the number of people employed on each contract, on security grounds. The value of each contract is regarded as commercial in confidence. I will write to the hon. Member about the total value of contracts for each financial year since 1984–85.

  European Army Corps
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what is Her Majesty's Government's policy towards the Franco-German plans for a new European army corps announced on 16 October.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The recent Franco-German proposals follow the Anglo-Italian declaration as a contribution to the European security and defence debate currently underway in the political union intergovernmental conference, in NATO, and in the Western European Union. The Government will engage in discussion of these in the relevant multilateral fora.

  Defence Industry
  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) which chairmen of defence contractors have been asked for their views on how to improve communications between his Department and industry;

  (2) if he will publish the text of the letters to the chairmen of defence contractors asking for their views on how to improve communications between his Department and industry;

  (3) if he will publish the results of his study of the replies to his letters to the chairmen of defence contractors asking for their views on how to improve communications between his Department and industry.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  This is a matter between my Department and the companies concerned.

  Service Personnel (Housing)
  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) what is his estimate of the number of service personnel who are currently in severe housing need, and the number who will be in severe housing need by 1994;

  (2) what criteria are used to assess whether service personnel are in severe housing need.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  Serving personnel are provided with accommodation, if they require it, as part of their conditions of service. The Department is not aware of any serving personnel who are in severe housing need and it is not expected that any serving personnel will be in severe housing need in the foreseeable future.

  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what is the name of the leading financial organisation mentioned by the Under-Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Mr. Hamilton),Official Report, 15 October, column 224, that has offered full-time members of the armed forces the opportunity to apply for mortgages at reduced rate; how far below the average rate this offer will be; and what proportion of those members of the armed forces who apply for the reduced rate mortgage will be granted this mortgage.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  My noble Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Armed Forces will write to the hon. Member.

  Mr. Grylls
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will list the new measures he proposes to introduce to help service men who have to leave the services to find new jobs and new homes.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  I refer my hon. Friend to the answer my right hon. Friend the Minister of State for the 612
  Armed Forces gave the hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks) on 15 October at column 142 and to his further remarks in the defence debate later that day, at columns 243–44.

  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what is his estimate of the proportion of those service personnel who, having opted to take redundancy, will have made their own provision for housing.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  The closing date for applications for voluntary redundancy is the beginning of next month; it is too early to say how many of those applying will have made provision for housing, but as my right hon. Friend the Minister of State for the Armed Forces said in the defence debate on 15 October, we expect that most of those who opt to take redundancy terms will have done so.

  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when the task force on service housing was set up; when it is due to finish its work; what is its composition; what representatives from the voluntary housing movement are members; whether there are any local authority representatives on the task force; and whether he will publish a copy of its terms of reference.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  My noble Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Armed Forces will write to the hon. Member.

  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what is his estimate of the amount of surplus service property that will be made available to housing associations to give temporary help to service personnel in severe housing need.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  Discussions with the housing associations are at an early stage and it is too soon to provide an estimate.

  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what consultations have taken place with local authorities regarding the housing requirements of ex-service personnel.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  This Department has held no direct consultations with local authorities. The Department of the Environment are, however, represented on the housing task force.

  RAF and Navy Units
  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what plans he has to improve the capability of units of the Royal Air Force and the Royal Navy.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  We will continue to improve the capability of all three services. The Royal Navy has three of the new class of type 23 frigates in service, seven on order, with tenders invited for up to three more. Design studies are under way for a new class of nuclear-powered submarines. We will continue to modernise our amphibious shipping. We expect to award a contract for project definition of the replacement landing platform dock in November. This month a contract was placed for 44 Merlin anti-submarine warfare helicopters. For the RAF, the introduction into service of the Boeing E-3D airborne early warning aircraft and IUKADGE will greatly enhance the command and control of our air
  613
  defence forces. In addition, we anticipate the European fighter aircraft will provide, towards the end of the decade, a powerful reinforcement of our air defence capability.

  1 Armoured Division
  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) what expenditure will be required to increase the capability of 1 Armoured Division by 25 per cent.;

  (2) what plans he has to improve the capability of units of the British Army other than 1 Armoured Division.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  As I made clear to the House on 15 October, the estimated improvement in the capability of 1 Armoured Division will result from our re-equipment plans. These include both the introduction of new capabilities and the replacement of a number of older systems. The cost of a number of specific equipments which 1 Armoured Division will field is shown in table 3.2 of volume 2 of the "Statement on the Defence Estimates 1991".

  The re-equipment programme affects the whole Army, not merely 1 Armoured Division. A number of the new equipments which that division will field will also be fielded by other formations, as set out in annex B to "Britain's Army for the 90s", Cm 1595.

  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what criteria will be used to measure the planned increase in the capability of 1 Armoured Division by 25 per cent. by the middle of the decade.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  The basic criteria will be the fire power, mobility, protection and sustainability of individual weapon systems.

  Nuclear Waste
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, pursuant to the oral answer to the hon. Member for Falkirk, West (Mr. Canavan), of 15 October,Official Report, column 139, whether any radioactive waste arising from military nuclear activities has been (a) disposed of or (b) stored long term in Scotland.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  Yes. Radioactive waste arising from the MOD military nuclear programme in Scotland is stored at Rosyth and Faslane, and it is disposed of to the Atomic Energy Authority site at Dounreay from the adjacent Vulcan naval reactor test establishment. These activities are carried out under the oversight of the appropriate civil regulatory authorities.

  Unilateral Nuclear Disarmament
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if, pursuant to his reply to the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Riddick),Official Report, 15 October, column 144, he will list the senders of the recent letters received on unilateral nuclear disarmament, indicating whether the sender was for or against unilateral nuclear disarmament; and if he will make his policy to give similar full details in response to any future questions submitted on representations made to his Department.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  The information requested by the hon. Gentleman could not be provided save at disproportionate cost. Nor would I wish to reveal personal information relating to members of the public who have been in correspondence with the Department.

  Arms Sales
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if. pursuant to the reply to the hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes),Official Report, 15 October, column 143, whether the greater transparency in the arms trade, to which reference is made, includes publication of arms sale agreements.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  No.

  Iraq
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether, pursuant to his oral answers to the hon. Members for Newport, West and for Clackmannan (Mr. O'Neill).Official Report, 15 October, column 136, he will now name the British firms, listed in the United Nations special inspection commission report on Iraq, to have supplied equipment and devices that assisted the Iraqi nuclear weapons programme.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Regiments
  Sir Nicholas Fairbairn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will give details of the demographic research and information taken into account by his Department before the decision to amalgamate four Scottish regiments; and what was the equivalent demographic information for each of the regions of England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  I will write to my hon. and learned Friend.

  AWACS Offset Agreement
  Mr. Viggers
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what is the value of the contracts which were expected to flow to the United Kingdom by virtue of the offset agreement entered into by the Boeing Aircraft Corporation at the time of his Department's purchase of Boeing AWACS aircraft.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  Some $1.5 billion.

  Regiments
  Mr. Bill Walker
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether he will state the current timetable for regimental amalgamations and mergers.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  I hope to make an announcement in due course.

EMPLOYMENT

  Training
  Mr. Butterfill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he has received any representations from the Transport and General Workers Union about training.

  Mr. Howard
  No.

  Ms. Ruddock
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many training places are being supplied
  615
  through training and enterprise councils in (a) the parliamentary constituency of Deptford, (b) the London borough of Lewisham and (c) London; and how many training places were proposed by providers bidding for contracts from training and enterprise councils in (a) the parliamentary constituency of Deptford, (b) the London borough of Lewisham and (c) London, respectively.

  Mr. Jackson
  The Department does not hold information on training places by parliamentary constituency or by borough. The division of total places, agreed by the Department for a TEC area, between boroughs, is a matter for each individual TEC. The latest figures available show the number of people currently in training on youth training and employment training in the South Thames TEC area to be 4,660 and, in London as a whole, to be 38,000. The detail of proposals made by providers bidding for contracts is a matter for the TEC and not for the Department.

  Mr. Watson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many training places were provided in each of the last three years; and how many he plans to provide in the current year.

  Mr. Jackson
  This information is not available. Contracts with training and enterprise councils in England and Wales and local enterprise companies in Scotland, whose responsibility it is to plan and manage training locally, are agreed on the basis of training weeks and outputs delivered rather than specific number of training places.

  Labour Statistics
  Mr. Canavan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many people are currently unemployed in the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Howard
  In September 1991 seasonally adjusted unemployment in the United Kingdom was 2,460,600.

  Ms. Ruddock
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many men and how many women were unemployed at the last count in(a) the parliamentary constituency of Deptford and (b) the London borough of Lewisham.

  Mr. Jackson
  On 12 September 1991, the latest unemployment count date, there were 5,292 male and 1,987 female unemployed claimants in the parliamentary constituency of Deptford, and 12,581 male and 4,678 female unemployed claimants in the London borough of Lewisham. The figures are on the unadjusted basis.

  Employment (Cornwall)
  Mr. Matthew Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what initiatives his Department has undertaken in Cornwall to cut unemployment levels.

  Mr. Jackson
  The Department has a wide range of training, enterprise, employment and other measures, available in Cornwall as elsewhere, to help unemployed people and employers.

  Devon and Cornwall training and enterprise council and the department's Employment Service are running a number of special initiatives in the county, designed to meet particular local needs.

  Small Businesses
  Mr. Butler
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what further action he proposes to help small businesses.

  Mr. Forth
  On 8 October my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State announced a seven-point package of further Government assistance to small firms and enterprise.

  This includes a number of projects to help stimulate informal investment; a major drive to tackle the problem of late payment; the publication of a comprehensive guide to the sources of venture capital and equity and the introduction of a new enterprise award for TECs.

  Sir Michael Neubert
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many small firms there were in Britain in(a) 1979 and (b) at the latest date for which figures are available; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Forth
  At the end of 1979 there were 1·8 million businesses in the United Kingdom; at the end of 1989 there were 3 million. The overwhelming majority of these were small; 95 per cent. were employing fewer than 20 people.

  The Government continue to be committed to helping small firms start and grow. To improve the business climate further, my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Employment announced on 8 October a number of important measures which I outlined in the answer I gave today to my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington, South (Mr. Butler).

  Mr. Simon Coombs
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what is his Department's policy on the payment of invoices to small and medium-sized businesses.

  Mr. Forth
  The Department's policy on the payment of invoices to small and medium-sized businesses is to make payment in accordance with the terms agreed on the contract or, if no terms have been agreed, within 30 days of the supply of the goods or services.

  All suppliers are paid in accordance with this policy, but it is of particular concern to the Department that small and medium-sized businesses receive payments when they are due.

  Wage Levels
  Mr. Andrew Mitchell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what representations he has received from the Electrical, Electronic, Telecommunications and Plumbing Union and the Amalgamated Engineering Union concerning wage levels.

  Mr. Howard
  None—but those unions' general secretaries have made it clear that their members would strongly oppose any wage restraint for higher-paid workers linked to Labour's proposals for a national legal minimum wage. If pay differentials were fully restored, up to 2 million jobs could be lost.

  Mr. Hannam
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what representations he has received about the effect of wage levels on job prospects in the different regions of the United Kingdom; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Howard
  I continue to receive representations about the adverse effect of statutory wage fixing on jobs.
  617
  Labour's proposals for a national legal minimum wage would have a disastrous effect on employment. Up to 2 million jobs could be destroyed if pay differentials were fully restored.

  Mr. Pike
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what percentage of full-time workers in the north-west earn below 50 per cent. of median male earnings.

  Mr. Jackson
  In April 1991, 7·4 per cent. of full time adult employees in the north-west were earning below this amount.

  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will make a statement on the extent to which job centres and employment service offices are advertising jobs with wage rates below the appropriate Wages Council minima.

  Mr. Jackson
  Questions on operational matters in the Employment Service executive agency are the responsibility of Mike Fogden, the agency's chief executive, to whom I have referred this question for reply.

  Technical and Vocational Education Initiative
  Mr. Ian Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many local education authorities have now extended the technical and vocational education initiative to all their schools and colleges.

  Mr. Jackson
  A total of 127 authorities are now in the extension phase of TVEI.

  Employment Action
  Mr. Brandon-Bravo
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what progress is being made on the employment action programme.

  Mr. Howard
  Progress on employment action has been very satisfactory. The first people joined the programme some three weeks ago. We are on course as planned to have 30,000 participants by March next year, with 60,000 helped in 1992–93.

  Ms. Short
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment (1) which training and enterprise councils made bids to participate in employment action; how many places they bid for; how many have they been allocated; and what arrangements have been made to deliver employment action in those areas where the TEC has decided not to run the programme;

  (2) what positive outcome he expects participants in employment action to obtain when they leave the programme; for each region and for Great Britain as a whole; what proportion of employment action partici-pants is expected to obtain employment; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Jackson
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Minimum Wage
  Dr. Twinn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what assessment he has made of the effect of a national minimum wage in other countries in the European Community; and if he will make a statement.
  618
  Mr. Howard
  In the European Community only France and Spain have a single statutory national minimum wage as proposed by the Labour party. Even in these countries there are reduced rates for young workers and some special groups are excluded.

  Every assessment of the effect of minimum wages shows that it damages employment opportunities.

  Employment Training
  Mr. Leighton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment (1) whose responsibility it is to provide the employment training guarantee;

  (2) what is the current Exchequer contribution to an empoloyment training place.

  Mr. Jackson
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Ms. Short
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will show for each region and for Great Britain as a whole the number and proportion of employment training leavers who had(a) been entered for a vocational qualification, (b) obtained a vocational qualification, (c) had failed to obtain vocational qualification and (d) were awaiting their results; and how many of the employment training leavers in the relevant period had completed the training agreed in their initial action plans.

  Mr. Jackson
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Ms. Short
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment (1) if he will show for each region and for Great Britain as a whole, for the latest available period, the number and proportion of employment training trainees who three months after leaving were(a) in a full-time job with their work experience employer, (b) in a full-time job with another employer, (c) employed in their own business, (d) in a part-time job, (e) in voluntary work, (f) on another Government training programme, (g) on a full-time education or training course, (h) unemployed and claiming benefit, (i) unemployed and not claiming benefit, (j) in a job club and (k) doing something else;

  (2) if he will give the latest available information on the characteristics of those who have entered employment training showing (a) whether male or female, (b) the duration of unemployment, (c) ethnic origin and (d) whether they have a disability broken down for each region and for Great Britain as a whole;

  (3) what is the annual expenditure on employment training from the start of the programme to the estimated outturn for 1991–92; how much of each year's budget in cash terms was used to pay (a) the trainee's training allowances and (b) the trainee's training premium; and what was the average trainee allowance in each year.

  Mr. Jackson
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Training and Enterprise Councils
  Mr. Leighton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment which TECs have been given extra money for youth training and how much.

  Mr. Jackson
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Skills
  Mr. Leighton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what is his Department's strategy for upskilling the labour force.
  619
  Mr. Jackson
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Youth Training
  Mr. Leighton
  To ask the Secretary of Stale for Employment (1) what percentage of youth training participants have employer placements;

  (2) whose responsibility it is to find placements to implement the youth training guarantee.

  Mr. Jackson
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Ms. Short
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment (1) what sums of money have been contributed from the European social fund towards the youth training scheme/youth training for the years 1989, 1990 and the current year; and what percentage contribution to the total costs of YTS/youth training this represents for each year;

  (2) what was the total expenditure in both cash and real terms on youth training excluding community industry in each of the years 1987–88 to 1990–91, and the planned expenditure in each of the years 1991–92, 1992–93 and 1993–94; and if he will make a statement;

  (3) by region and for Great Britain as a whole if he will give the latest available details showing the number of YT-YTS trainees in each of the training occupational groups, broken down to show (a) the number of male and female trainees in each group, (b) the ethnic origin of trainees in each group and (c) whether or not the young people had a disability;

  (4) for Great Britain and for each region, by male and female, at the most recent date, and at one year previously, how many YT trainees had contracts of employment;

  (5) for each region and for Great Britain as a whole, if he will give the latest results of the YTS leavers survey, to show for male and female trainees and for each separate ethnic group and for those with a disability (a) those in full-time work with the same employer, (b) those in full-time work with a different employer, (c) those in part-time work, (d) those on a full-time course at a college or training centre, (e) those on another YTS, (f) those doing something else, (g) those who were unemployed, (h) those who had obtained a vocational qualification, (i) the number of questionnaires issued, (j) the usable percentage response rate and (k) the percentage of respondents who were early leavers;

  (6) what were the numbers of accidents on YTS, fatal, major and minor, for the latest available three-month period; and how many YTS placements were closed or not accepted in that period and in the three preceding months.

  Mr. Jackson
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Mr. Harry Greenway
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many young people are currently on the YTS; how many are waiting for places; and if he will make a statement.

  Severe hardship referrals by region

  Scotland

  North East

  Month

  Total

  Yes

  No

  Total

  Yes

  No

  1990

  July

  692

  524

  168

  484

  366

  118

  August

  815

  589

  226

  586

  422

  164

  September

  639

  480

  159

  454

  343

  111

  October

  742

  570

  172

  522

  379

  143

  November

  675

  525

  150

  537

  421

  116

  December

  482

  380

  102

  369

  283

  86

  620
  Mr. Jackson
  There are about 260,000 young people on youth training in England and Wales. Information on the total numbers waiting for places is not held centrally.

  Restart
  Ms. Short
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment (1) for each region and for Great Britain as a whole, how many people have attended a Restart interview since 1 April; and what were the results of those interviews, broken down in the same way as the answer given to the hon. Member for Pendle (Mr. Lee) on 18 December 1990,Official Report, column 148.

  (2) for each region and for Great Britain as a whole how many unemployed people have been referred to restart courses by Employment Service counsellors since January 1991; how many of them were unemployed for over two years; how many attended and completed the courses; what were the outcomes of the participants; how many had benefit penalties imposed for not attending or failing to complete their attendance at the restart course; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Jackson
  Questions on operational matters in the Employment Service executive agency are the responsibility of Mike Fogden, the agency's chief executive, to whom I have referred this question for reply.

  Young People (Benefits)
  Ms. Short
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment by region and for Great Britain as a whole how many 16 and 17-year-olds were in receipt of extended child benefit and how many were in receipt of bridging allowance for each month since July 1990; how many young people in each region and in Great Britain exhausted their entitlement to either extended child benefit or the eight weeks bridging allowance; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Jackson
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Ms. Short
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment by region and for Great Britain as a whole how many 16 and 17-year-olds for each month since July 1990 have made applications for income support on grounds of extreme hardship and how many have been granted or refused; what is his estimate of the number of 16 and 17-year-olds in that period who had been granted income support on grounds of being within an exempted category; and if he will make a statement.

  Miss Widdecombe
  I have been asked to reply.

  The available information on severe hardship claims is in the following table.
  621

  Scotland

  North East

  Month

  Total

  Yes

  No

  Total

  Yes

  No

  1991

  January

  934

  742

  192

  696

  511

  185

  February

  995

  787

  208

  700

  525

  175

  March

  1,030

  786

  244

  699

  520

  179

  April

  1,006

  812

  192

  616

  454

  162

  May

  1,308

  1,054

  254

  800

  622

  178

  June

  1,169

  960

  209

  738

  608

  130

  July

  1,263

  1,014

  249

  1,008

  793

  215

  August

  1,320

  1,064

  256

  979

  775

  204

  September

  1,189

  927

  262

  932

  738

  1,94

  North West

  Midlands

  Month

  Total

  Yes

  No

  Total

  Yes

  No

  1990

  July

  337

  241

  96

  279

  183

  96

  August

  378

  262

  116

  300

  199

  101

  September

  274

  211

  63

  242

  169

  73

  October

  302

  243

  59

  254

  172

  82

  November

  299

  226

  73

  218

  151

  67

  December

  237

  183

  54

  166

  125

  41

  1991

  January

  438

  331

  107

  323

  240

  83

  February

  436

  313

  123

  396

  285

  111

  March

  458

  343

  115

  364

  262

  102

  April

  418

  320

  98

  335

  254

  81

  May

  543

  419

  124

  479

  367

  112

  June

  533

  441

  92

  479

  379

  100

  July

  673

  543

  130

  687

  554

  133

  August

  625

  477

  148

  684

  536

  148

  September

  671

  517

  154

  695

  547

  148

  Wales and South West

  London North

  Month

  Total

  Yes

  No

  Total

  Yes

  No

  1990

  July

  188

  137

  51

  216

  144

  72

  August

  225

  150

  75

  254

  164

  90

  September

  192

  131

  61

  220

  152

  68

  October

  220

  163

  57

  220

  150

  70

  November

  201

  159

  42

  226

  161

  65

  December

  145

  115

  30

  169

  134

  35

  January 1991

  332

  236

  96

  339

  255

  84

  February

  373

  283

  90

  385

  279

  106

  March

  378

  308

  70

  375

  284

  91

  April

  394

  318

  76

  378

  271

  107

  May

  480

  393

  87

  430

  341

  89

  June

  499

  417

  82

  449

  352

  97

  July

  730

  587

  143

  576

  477

  99

  August

  609

  510

  99

  528

  428

  100

  September

  685

  558

  127

  579

  475

  104

  London South

  Totals for Great Britain

  Month

  Total

  Yes

  No

  Total

  Yes

  No

  1990

  July

  240

  160

  80

  2,436

  1,755

  681

  August

  237

  177

  60

  2,795

  1,963

  832

  September

  165

  125

  40

  2,186

  1,611

  575

  October

  223

  164

  59

  2,483

  1,841

  642

  November

  198

  145

  53

  2,354

  1,788

  566

  December

  153

  103

  50

  1,721

  1,323

  398

  January 1991

  316

  225

  91

  3,378

  2,540

  838

  February

  338

  239

  99

  3,623

  2,711

  912

  March

  394

  296

  98

  3,698

  2,799

  899

  April

  370

  290

  80

  3,515

  2,719

  796

  May

  488

  391

  97

  4,530

  3,589

  941

  June

  384

  333

  51

  4,251

  3,490

  761

  July

  624

  508

  116

  5,563

  4,478

  1,085

  August

  553

  452

  101

  5,298

  4,242

  1,056

  September

  657

  539

  118

  5,408

  4,301

  1,107

  622 623
  Information with regard to payment of income support to 16 and 17-year-olds in exempted categories as not available.

  Low Pay
  Mr. Allen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will publish tables in the Official Report showing the proportion of (a) full-time employees earning less than (i) £138·74, (ii) £185·00 and (iii) £193·60 per week excluding overtime payments and (b) part time employees earning less than (1) £3·70, (2) £4·92 and (3) £5·15 per hour excluding overtime payments for (A) Great Britain as a whole, (B) each county in England, (C) each county in Wales, (D) each London borough and Greater London as a whole and (E) each regional authority and borough in Scotland.

  Mr. Jackson
  The information available from the 1991 New Earnings Survey is given in the following tables.

  Gross weekly earnings excluding overtime of full-time employees on adult rates—pay unaffected by absence

  Percentage earning less than specified amounts—April 1991

  <£130

  <£140

  <£180

  <£190

  <£1200

  Greater London

  3·0

  4·4

  13·3

  16·4

  19·7

  City of London

  1·5

  2·0

  5·9

  7·6

  9·7

  London Boroughs

  Barking

  3·7

  5·9

  16·8

  20·6

  24·3

  Barnet

  4·2

  7·7

  20·8

  23·0

  27·4

  Bexley

  5·3

  7·6

  20·8

  24·4

  28·1

  Brent

  4·1

  6·2

  20·5

  25·1

  28·8

  Bromley

  7·0

  8·9

  25·9

  30·2

  34·1

  Camden

  1·8

  2·7

  9·4

  11·9

  15·1

  Croydon

  3·9

  6·6

  18·6

  22·3

  26·7

  Ealing

  3·0

  4·1

  13·9

  17·1

  21·6

  Enfield

  4·5

  7·2

  19·7

  22·9

  27·8

  Greenwich

  4·4

  6·5

  19·8

  23·0

  28·9

  Hackney

  5·0

  6·2

  17·4

  19·0

  21·2

  Hammersmith

  2·9

  4·4

  11·6

  14·1

  17·3

  Haringey

  5·3

  6·9

  19·1

  22·7

  27·6

  Harrow

  4·6

  5·6

  15·2

  19·1

  21·5

  Havering

  6·2

  9·4

  24·7

  28·2

  31·8

  Hillingdon

  2·4

  4·0

  15·7

  19·3

  21·9

  Hounslow

  2·0

  2·8

  11·0

  13·6

  16·7

  Islington

  2·2

  3·4

  7·7

  9·9

  13·1

  Kensington and Chelsea

  3·8

  5·8

  17·1

  21·1

  24·6

  Kingston/Thames

  2·8

  5·4

  16·9

  20·8

  25·1

  Lambeth

  1·7

  2·9

  9·3

  12·7

  16·2

  Lewisham

  5·0

  7·0

  20·4

  23·1

  25·8

  Merton

  3·8

  5·9

  18·8

  22·6

  27·1

  Newham

  2·4

  3·4

  13·1

  18·4

  23·6

  Redbridge

  4·8

  7·2

  21·0

  25·2

  29·7

  Richmond/Thames

  3·0

  3·8

  13·3

  19·0

  20·5

  Southwark

  2·4

  3·5

  10·2

  13·6

  16·1

  Sutton

  3·1

  4·0

  14·6

  19·0

  24·3

  Tower Hamlets

  3·2

  4·2

  10·4

  13·0

  16·1

  Waltham Forest

  5·6

  6·8

  18·0

  24·4

  31·6

  Wandsworth

  2·7

  4·7

  17·0

  19·7

  24·4

  City of Westminster

  2·1

  3·3

  10·0

  13·1

  15·2

  Bedfordshire

  6·3

  9·9

  26·6

  31·7

  36·1

  Counties

  South East Region

  Berkshire

  3·6

  5·8

  18·7

  22·5

  27·3

  Buckinghamshire

  5·6

  8·2

  23·6

  28·7

  33·8

  East Sussex

  8·4

  12·2

  34·1

  40·4

  45·7

  Essex

  6·9

  10·2

  28·9

  33·8

  38·0

  Hampshire

  6·9

  10·4

  29·4

  33·6

  37·8

  Hertfordshire

  3·1

  5·5

  19·5

  23·1

  27·0

  Isle of Wight

  11·9

  15·7

  33·8

  41·0

  44·3

  Kent

  8·3

  12·3

  30·1

  34·3

  38·7

  Oxfordshire

  5·3

  8·7

  25·9

  30·4

  34·4

  Surrey

  4·5

  6·3

  19·7

  23·3

  27·7

  624

  <£130

  <£140

  <£180

  <£190

  <£200

  West Sussex

  6·2

  9·7

  27·3

  31·5

  36·5

  East Anglia Region

  Cambridgeshire

  7·8

  11·4

  30·7

  35·2

  39·2

  Norfolk

  10·4

  15·8

  38·3

  43·4

  48·2

  Suffolk

  10·0

  14·4

  36·1

  40·0

  44·9

  South West Region

  Avon

  7·0

  10·3

  29·1

  33·0

  36·8

  Cornwall

  19·7

  27·2

  49·0

  54·2

  59·1

  Devon

  12·8

  17·8

  39·5

  44·6

  50·2

  Dorset

  9·2

  13·9

  35·8

  42·0

  46·5

  Gloucestershire

  8·4

  11·8

  29·8

  35·4

  39·8

  Somerset

  11·7

  17·3

  37·3

  40·9

  45·5

  Wiltshire

  7·5

  11·4

  31·0

  34·9

  39·0

  West Midlands Region

  West Midlands Met County

  9·2

  13·0

  31·4

  36·4

  40·6

  Hereford/Worcester

  10·5

  16·7

  41·1

  45·6

  50·6

  Shropshire

  12·6

  18·1

  43·4

  49·2

  52·8

  Staffordshire

  13·3

  17·3

  40·4

  45·1

  50·1

  Warwickshire

  9·5

  13·1

  33·9

  37·1

  39·6

  East Midlands Region

  Derbyshire

  9·6

  13·8

  31·8

  37·4

  42·2

  Leicestershire

  11·6

  15·9

  35·3

  40·6

  46·0

  Lincolnshire

  14·2

  19·1

  44·5

  49·7

  54·2

  Northamptonshire

  7·4

  11·2

  33·1

  38·5

  43·5

  Notthinghamshire

  12·0

  16·0

  36·9

  41·5

  45·5

  Yorkshire and Humberside Region

  South Yorkshire Met County

  10·2

  14·2

  32·7

  37·2

  41·8

  West Yorkshire Met County

  10·9

  16·3

  36·2

  41·3

  46·5

  Humberside

  12·9

  17·9

  39·2

  42·9

  46·7

  North Yorkshire

  12·0

  16·6

  40·0

  45·0

  50·5

  North West Region

  Greater Manchester Met County

  10·5

  14·9

  33·8

  38·6

  42·9

  Merseyside Met County

  9·9

  13·3

  34·2

  38·7

  43·1

  Cheshire

  8·3

  10·9

  29·3

  33·7

  38·7

  Lancashire

  11·5

  16·2

  38·3

  42·9

  47·3

  Northern Region

  Tyne and Wear Metropolitan County

  10·5

  14·4

  35·7

  41·7

  45·8

  Cleveland

  11·8

  15·2

  32·6

  37·2

  40·0

  Cumbria

  10·9

  14·6

  30·9

  34·9

  39·7

  Durham

  13·8

  18·4

  37·7

  44·5

  48·9

  Northumberland

  16·0

  20·5

  42·6

  47·7

  52·7

  Wales

  Clwyd-West

  18·7

  23·2

  44·2

  48·2

  51·8

  Clwyd-East

  12·9

  15·2

  33·1

  39·0

  43·0

  Dyfed (ex Llanelli)

  18·6

  23·1

  45·5

  51·9

  56·1

  Gwent

  12·1

  16·4

  36·8

  42·5

  47·6

  Gwynedd

  13·5

  18·5

  42·7

  48·8

  52·2

  Mid Glamorgan

  11·9

  18·0

  39·2

  44·9

  49·6

  Powys

  15·3

  23·3

  39·8

  44·9

  48·9

  South Glamorgan

  7·6

  11·2

  33·4

  38·9

  44·0

  West Glamorgan(in Llanelli)

  11·2

  16·4

  34·1

  38·8

  43·3

  Scotland

  Borders

  ..

  ..

  ..

  ..

  ..

  Central

  12·4

  17·4

  38·1

  44·2

  48·6

  Dumfries/Galloway

  15·5

  18·4

  46·9

  51·6

  53·8

  Fife

  12·8

  17·2

  43·0

  46·1

  49·6

  Grampian

  10·8

  14·8

  31·9

  35·4

  39·0

  625

  <£130

  <£140

  <£180

  <£190

  <£200

  Highland

  13·3

  19·8

  42·0

  47·8

  50·9

  Lothian

  9·5

  13·8

  35·1

  39·6

  44·9

  Strathclyde

  10·9

  15·1

  35·5

  41·2

  45·8

  Tayside

  12·9

  18·1

  41·3

  45·9

  51·9

  Orkney. Shetlands, Western Islands

  13·8

  17·4

  25·7

  31·2

  34·9

  Highlands/Islands

  13·4

  19·3

  38·4

  44·1

  47·4

  Great Britain

  8·6

  12·2

  30·1

  34·6

  38·9

  Gross hourly earnings excluding overtime of part-time employees on adult rales—pay unaffected by absence Percentage earning less than specified amounts—April 1991

  Women

  <£3·60

  <£3·80

  <£4·80

  <£5·40

  Greater London

  17·7

  24·1

  53·2

  65·1

  City of London

  —

  —

  —

  —

  London boroughs

  Barking

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Barnet

  22·7

  34·7

  60·0

  74·7

  Bexley

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Brent

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Bromley

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Camden

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Croydon

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Ealing

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Enfield

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Greenwich

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Hackney

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Hammersmith

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Haringey

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Harrow

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Havering

  30·3

  41·6

  11·5

  85·4

  Hillingdon

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Hounslow

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Islington

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Kensington and Chelsea

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Kingston/Thames

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Lambeth

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Lewisham

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Merton

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Newham

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Redbridge

  19·3

  26·1

  61·4

  77·3

  Richmond/Thames

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Southwark

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Sutton

  11·1

  15·6

  46·7

  68·9

  Tower Hamlets

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Waltham Forest

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Wandsworth

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Westminster

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Counties South East region

  Bedfordshire

  41·0

  44·0

  79·1

  85·1

  Berkshire

  30·3

  37·1

  66·8

  74·8

  Buckinghamshire

  29·1

  36·1

  60·7

  73·4

  East Sussex

  37·3

  44·0

  71·1

  79·6

  Essex

  45·8

  53·0

  76·3

  82·8

  Hampshire

  44·2

  52·0

  76·9

  82·7

  Hertfordshire

  32·5

  42·1

  68·0

  77·6

  Isle of Wight

  51·5

  57·6

  75·8

  83·3

  Kent

  44·3

  51·3

  73·2

  79·1

  Oxfordshire

  43·0

  48·4

  69·1

  78·1

  Surrey

  30·3

  36·7

  61·8

  74·4

  West Sussex

  45·6

  52·3

  74·0

  81·9

  East Anglia Region

  Cambridgeshire

  42·0

  48·0

  74·5

  85·0

  Norfolk

  50·2

  55·4

  76·3

  82·7

  Suffolk

  48·1

  57·0

  78·5

  82·7

  South West Region

  Avon

  48·6

  55·5

  73·6

  83·4

  Cornwall

  61·7

  67·2

  83·6

  90·6

  Devon

  54·7

  57·7

  81·0

  85·7

  626

  Women

  <£3·60

  <£3·80

  <£4·80

  <£5·40

  Dorset

  51·5

  57·3

  73·5

  78·8

  Gloucestershire

  45·2

  52·8

  72·4

  81·4

  Somerset

  51·9

  62·7

  81·1

  85·9

  Wiltshire

  50·8

  57·6

  80·1

  86·4

  West Midlands Region

  West Midlands Metropolitan County

  48·9

  55·3

  76·1

  82·4

  Hereford and Worcester

  57·7

  65·8

  82·0

  84·2

  Shropshire

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Staffordshire

  57·7

  64·4

  84·0

  86·4

  Warwickshire

  52·4

  58·6

  80·6

  86·9

  East Midlands Region

  Derbyshire

  57·5

  63·5

  83·2

  89·5

  Leicestershire

  46·3

  55·8

  74·6

  82·3

  Lincolnshire

  56·1

  61·0

  80·0

  87·3

  Northamptonshire

  49·8

  57·7

  79·8

  84·0

  Nottinghamshire

  54·9

  60·9

  80·9

  87·0

  Yorkshire and Humberside Region

  South Yorkshire Metropolitan County

  55·4

  61·4

  79·8

  86·3

  West Yorkshire

  Metropolitan County

  48·9

  59·4

  79·3

  84·9

  Humberside

  50·9

  63·1

  81·2

  86·2

  North Yorkshire

  51·4

  55·7

  80·4

  85·9

  North West Region

  Greater Manchester Metropolitan County

  48·2

  56·6

  80·4

  84·9

  Merseyside Metropolitan County

  48·7

  57·5

  79·1

  84·6

  Cheshire

  54·1

  62·2

  80·7

  87·1

  Lancashire

  50·7

  57·0

  77·2

  84·6

  Northern Region

  Tyne and Wear: Metropolitan County

  54·9

  63·6

  81·7

  89·2

  Cleveland

  58·9

  62·8

  76·7

  82·2

  Cumbria

  52·7

  55·6

  81·0

  89·8

  Durham

  58·7

  63·5

  81·2

  87·5

  Northumberland

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Wales

  Clwyd, West

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Clwyd, East

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Dyfed (ex Llanelli)

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Gwent

  50·0

  55·8

  71·0

  77·5

  Gwynedd

  54·7

  65·6

  81·2

  89·1

  Mid Glamorgan

  56·1

  71·7

  81·3

  85·0

  Powys

  —

  —

  —

  —

  South Glamorgan

  51·2

  56·0

  77·8

  86·0

  West Glamorgan (in Llanelli)

  61·2

  67·8

  81·8

  89·3

  Scotland

  Borders

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Central

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Dumfries/Galloway

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Fife

  63·7

  69·4

  86·3

  87·9

  Grampian

  51·8

  57·7

  77·0

  81·5

  Highland

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Lothian

  43·2

  55·7

  77·6

  82·5

  Strathclyde

  43·0

  51·5

  74·4

  80·6

  Tayside

  57·1

  60·5

  78·9

  83·7

  Orkney, Shetlands, Western Islands

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Highlands/Islands

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Great Britain

  45·8

  52·9

  74·7

  81·7

  ADULTS

  Great Britain

  45·7

  52·7

  74·0

  80·8

  source: New Earnings Survey"—"denotes not available.

  Performance Targets
  Mr. Leighton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will publish the performance targets of the Employment Department group.

  Mr. Jackson
  The performance targets, which are available at the time of its publication in the early part of the year, are set out in the departmental report.

  Targets for the Employment Service agency and for TEC-delivered programmes are agreed after the publica-tion of the departmental report. The Employment Service targets are published in the annual performance agreement at the beginning of each financial year. The TEC network is now complete, and targets for TEC delivered programmes will be agreed with all 82 TECs in their annual business plans prior to the start of the next financial year. The national aggregate of individual TEC targets will be announced to Parliament following completion of the negotiations with all the TECs.

  Remploy, Stoke-on-Trent
  Ms. Walley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will reconsider his decision to allow non-disabled staff to he employed on a casual basis in the Remploy workshop in Stoke-on-Trent in jobs which were primarily intended for people with severe disabilities.

  Mr. Jackson
  Remploy continues to fulfil its statutory duty to provide productive work in sheltered conditions for people with severe disabilities. In order to help fulfil this statutory duty and to provide real jobs Remploy operates as a commercial company. As a result Remploy also employs non-disabled staff where it considers this necessary. I understand that in order to meet short-term demands in work recently being undertaken by its Stoke-on-Trent factory, the company decided to take on both disabled and non-disabled people to fill some temporary vacancies.

  Sheep Dip
  Mr. David Nicholson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment whether he will now publish the research carried out by the Health and Safety Executive on the effects of organophosphorus sheep dip on farmers. what other studies into this matter are being funded by his Department; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Forth
  The Health and Safety Executive has not carried out research into the effects of organophosphorus sheep dip on farmers' health. A pilot survey carried out in the south-west in autumn 1990 was to look at sheep dipping practices and to contribute towards the validation of a biological monitoring method which relies on urine measurements rather than blood sampling. The survey was undertaken for operational reasons by HSE to determine appropriate avenues for further research. There are no plans to publish it in its present form.

  Following this pilot survey HSE is commissioning research into the possible chronic long-term effectsneuropsychological effects—of exposure to organophosphoros sheep dip. Work is also being commissioned on the occupational hygience aspects of sheep dipping—dip bath design and dipping technique. HSE agricultural inspectors will next year undertake a survey of sheep dipping facilities on farms.

  Private Security Firms
  Mr. George
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will list the number of private security firms currently employed by his Department, the number of employees for each firm on the contract, the total value of each contract and the total value of all contracts for each financial year since 1984–85.

  Mr. Forth
  At present the following private firms provide security for the Employment Department:

  Buxton and High Peak Security Services

  Group 4 Security

  Guarda Security

  Halton Security Systems

  Keywatch Security

  Neptune Security Services

  Reliance Security Services

  Securiguard

  Security Express Guards

  Stirling Security

  The total value (£000s) of contracts since 1984–85 is:

  £000s

  1984–85

  300

  1985–86

  331

  1986–87

  427

  1987–88

  502

  1988–89

  444

  1989–90

  540

  1990–91

  664

  Total

  £3·208 million

  Training Credits
  Mr. McLeish
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment when the evaluation of the first phase of training credits will be published; and if special needs is one of the selection criteria being used for the second round of bids for training credits.

  Mr. Jackson
  I hope to publish evaluation results from the first nine months of operating training credits in the spring of 1992. Evaluation will, of course, continue well beyond that, to identify the achievements of young people currently beginning training and the impact of credits on young people who leave school in 1992 and subsequently. Training for those with special needs is one of the factors that I will take into account in selecting successful applications for the second round, and all bidders were specifically asked to set out their plans for meeting special training needs.

  North-West Tourism
  Mr. Fearn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what plans he has to visit Southport during the next six months to discuss the north-west tourist industry.

  Mr. Forth
  My noble Friend Viscount Ullswater, who has ministerial responsibility for tourism matters, has no specific plans to visit Southport. However, he would be happy to do so when a suitable opportunity arises in his regional visits programme.

  BTA Heritage Committee
  Mr. Fearn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment when he last met the British Tourist Authority's heritage committee.
  629
  Mr. Forth
  My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State has never been invited to meet this committee, which advises the board of the British Tourist Authority.

  Age Discrimination
  Mr. Ward
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what steps Her Majesty's Government are taking to prevent discrimination against job applicants by reason of their age alone.

  Mr. Jackson
  Age discrimination against job applicants is short-sighted and wasteful. My colleagues and I are taking every opportunity to emphasise that employers should make more effective use of the valuable qualities of skill, experience and reliability that older people can bring to a job. We shall continue to promote good practice in the recruitment and employment of older workers.

  Tourism
  Mr. Fearn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment when he last met the Association of Leading Visitor Attractions to discuss future prospects for the tourist industry.

  Mr. Forth
  I addressed the first conference to be organised by the Association of Leading Visitor Attractions on Thursday 17 October 1991 and also answered questions from delegates. My noble Friend, Viscount Ullswater, has on a number of occasions held discussions with representatives of the association.

  Visual Disability
  Mr. Fearn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment when he last met the Royal National Institute for the Blind to discuss the difficulties blind people find in getting a job.

  Mr. Jackson
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Non-vocational Qualifications
  Mr. Hardy
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will take immediate action to ensure that relevant qualifications such as may be provided by the City and Guilds institutions or which are approved by industry training boards are recognised as satisfactory national vocational qualifications; and if he will make a statement on the reasons for the delay in agreeing such recognition.

  Mr. Jackson
  National vocational qualifications are based on occupational standards identified by representative employer-led bodies some of which are industry training boards. In conjunction with awarding bodies such as the City and Guilds of London institute they can submit proposals to the National Council for Vocational Qualifications, for accreditation as NVQs provided that they meet the NVQ criteria.

  Many NVQs proposed by CGLI and supported by the appropriate lead body have already gained accreditation. I am assured that there is no undue delay by NCVQ in accrediting qualifications which meet the NVQ criteria.

  Industrial Tribunals
  Mr. Batiste
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment when he proposes to bring forward appropriate measures to give industrial tribunals jurisdiction over complaints of breach of employment contracts; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Forth
  The Government are firmly committed to giving industrial tribunals this jurisdiction, as announced by my predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for Teignbridge (Mr. Nicholls) last year. However, it is now clear that the powers contained in section 131 of the Employment Protection (Consolidation) Act 1978 are inadequate for achieving this objective. The Government therefore propose to include a provision to enable industrial tribunals to hear complaints arising from breach of contract of employment at the earliest appropriate opportunity in a future legislative programme.

  Job Interview Guarantee Scheme
  Ms. Short
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment (1) for each region and for Great Britain as a whole how many agreements have been made with employers to operate the job interview guarantee scheme since it was extended nationally in April 1991; how many unemployed people have taken part in the scheme in each area; and how many participants have secured full-time employment with their sponsoring employer;

  (2) for each region and for Great Britain as a whole how many employers have participated in job interview guarantee work trials since the national extension of the scheme on 1 April 1991; how many claimants have participated in such work trials; how many claimants are currently participating in work trials; and how many participants have got full-time employment with their work trial employer.

  Mr. Jackson
  Questions on operational matters in the Employment Service executive agency are the responsibility of Mike Fogden, the agency's chief executive, to whom I have referred these questions for reply.

  Expenditure Statistics
  Ms. Short
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will give the expenditure by planning total for each of the years 1984–85 to 1990–91, inclusive, and the estimated planning total for 1991–92, 1992–93 and 1993–94 in both cash and real terms.

  Mr. Jackson
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Employment Expenditure
  Ms. Short
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will show for Great Britain how much expenditure, excluding administration costs, at cash and constant prices, has been spent in each year since 1983–84 on(a) employment training, and the earlier programmes it replaced, (b) youth training, and the earlier YTS and YOP, (c) the enterprise allowance scheme, (d) job clubs and (e) Restart courses; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Jackson
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Career Development Scheme
  Ms. Short
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment for each region and for Great Britain as a whole, how many applications for loans under the career development scheme have been made to date and how many have been rejected; what have been the successful course completion rates in each area; how much has been awarded in total for each region; how much has been recovered, and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Jackson
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Job Clubs
  Ms. Short
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment for each region and for Great Britain as a whole since April 1991 how many people have joined job clubs; how many have left; how many leavers got jobs; how many entered another positive outcome; and if he will give that information broken down by the ethnic origin and male/female characteristics of participants.

  Mr. Jackson
  Questions on operational matters in the Employment Service executive agency are the responsibility of Mike Fogden, the agency's chief executive, to whom I have referred this question for reply.

  Actively Seeking Work Test
  Ms. Short
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many claimants in each quarter since September 1990 for each region and for Great Britain as a whole have(a) been issued with warning letters for not actively seeking work, (b) had their claim referred to an arbitration for not actively seeking work, (c) had their claims allowed or disallowed for not actively seeking work, (d) had their claim referred to an officer for refusing suitable employment and (e) how many of those in (d) have had their benefit disqualified or not disqualified.

  Mr. Jackson
  Questions on operational matters in the Employment Service executive agency are the responsibility of Mike Fogden, the agency's chief executive, to whom I have referred this question for reply.

  Benefit Claimants
  Ms. Short
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment for each region and for Great Britain as a whole for each quarter since October 1989, how many income support and unemployment benefit claimants have(a) successfully and (b) unsuccessfully claimed income support under the hardship rules, showing those whose claim was in doubt due to (i) not actively seeking work, (ii) refusing suitable employment and (iii) availability for work.

  Miss Widdecombe
  I have been asked to reply.

  The administration of income support is a matter for Mr. Michael Bichard, the chief executive of the Benefits Agency. He will write to the hon. Member shortly with such information as is available and copies will be placed in the Library and the Public Information Office.

SCOTLAND

  Fish Farms
  Mr. Graham
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what advice his Department has issued on protecting fish farm stock from predatory wildlife.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  Fish farmers are recommended to follow the codes of practice which have been issued by the Scottish Salmon Growers Association (following agreement with the Nature Conservancy Council and other conservation groups) and the Shetland Salmon Farmers Association. These codes recommend the installation of non-lethal anti-predation measures, such as netting and acoustic devices at fish farms to deter seals and predatory birds, and advise that shooting should be used only as a last resort. The Government welcome these voluntary initiatives by the industry and conservation bodies.

  Mr. Graham
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what monitoring his Department is presently carrying out to determine the numbers of birds and seals that are shot or drowned in anti-predator netting at marine fish farms in Scotland; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  The number of birds or seals shot under licence at marine fish farms are reported to the Scottish Office Agriculture and Fisheries Department as a condition of the licence. There is no requirement to report birds or seals which may have been killed in other circumstances. A voluntary survey of the number of seals killed at nets and marine fish farms was recently carried out by the Department and the Seal Mammal Research Unit of the Natural Environmental Research Council (the statutory advisor to the Government on seals) in co-operation with the industry. The returns are being analysed at present.

  Renfrew District Council
  Mr. McMaster
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland when he next plans to meet representatives of Renfrew district council; and if he will make a statement.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  My right hon. Friend met representatives of Renfrew district council on Friday 4 October. He has no plans for further meetings.

  Argyll and Clyde Health Board
  Mr. McMaster
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what honorarium is paid to(a) the chairman and (b) each member of Argyll and Clyde health board; how many times the board met in the last 12 months; how many committee or sub-committee meetings involving board members occurred in the last 12 months; and if he will publish the attendance record of each board member at such meetings in the last 12 months.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Tayside, North (Mr. Walker) on 6 July 1990. Revised honorarium for health board chairmen were introduced on 1 April 1991. The current honorarium for the chairman of Argyll and Clyde health board is £17,375 per annum. The other information requested is not recorded centrally.

  Housing (Renfrew)
  Mr. McMaster
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will publish a table showing the capital allocation given to Renfrew district council for its housing stock in each financial year since 1974–75, using 1974–75 as the base for expressing all subsequent years in real terms.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  Block allocations in respect of housing capital expenditure were introduced in 1978–79. Gross HRA allocations issued to Renfrew district council, incorporating the estimate of capital receipts made at the start of each year and any supplementary allocations made during the year, are set out in the table, expressed in 1978–79 prices.

  Renfrew district council Gross HRA capital allocations (1978–79 prices)

  Year

  £ million

  1978–79

  4·9

  1979–80

  6·5

  1980–81

  5·6

  1981–82

  5·4

  1982–83

  4·5

  1983–84

  4·9

  1984–85

  4·4

  1985–86

  5·2

  1986–87

  6·1

  1987–88

  8·3

  1988–89

  8·8

  Applicant households under the homeless persons legislation assessed by local authorities as homeless

  Renfrew

  Strathclyde

  Scotland

  Year

  Number

  Per cent. change

  Number

  Per cent. change

  Number

  Per cent. change

  1978–79

  505

  —

  4,220

  —

  7,437

  —

  1979–80

  371

  -26·5

  4,536

  7·5

  7,421

  -0·2

  1980–81

  381

  2·7

  4,495

  -0·9

  6,993

  -5.8

  1981–82

  471

  23·6

  5,126

  14·0

  8,272

  18·3

  1982–83

  583

  23·8

  5,612

  9·5

  8,674

  4·9

  1983–84

  500

  -14·2

  5,034

  -10·3

  8,124

  -6·3

  1984–85

  564

  12·8

  5,014

  -0·4

  9,913

  22·0

  1985–86

  931

  65·1

  5,364

  7·0

  11,027

  11·2

  1986–87

  534

  -42·6

  4,981

  -7·1

  10,571

  -4·1

  1987–88

  358

  -33·0

  4,506

  -9·5

  9,592

  -9·3

  1988–89

  458

  27·9

  4,544

  0·8

  9,634

  0·4

  1989–901

  396

  -13·5

  5,061

  11·4

  11,339

  17·

  1 Some 2,000 returns, mostly from Glasgow, are estimated to remain outstanding.

  School Meals
  Mr. McMaster
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will publish a table showing(a) the average per capita subsidy and (b) the average cost to the pupil of school meals in each regional authority in Scotland in each year since 1975; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  There is no specific subsidy given to regional authorities to defray the cost of providing school meals. Grant-aided expenditure given to regional authorities contains an element of funding sufficient for

  Charge for a fixed price school meal

  (Pence)

  Region or Island authority

  1975

  1976

  1977

  1978

  1979

  1980

  1981

  1982

  1983

  1984

  1985

  1986

  1987

  1988

  1989

  1990

  1991

  Borders

  15

  15

  25

  25

  30

  35

  35

  40

  42

  44

  46

  48

  50

  50

  50

  50

  55

  Central

  15

  15

  25

  25

  30

  35

  35

  35

  40

  45

  45

  50

  55

  58

  60

  62

  68

  Dumfries and

  365

  Galloway

  15

  15

  25

  25

  30

  35

  40

  45

  50

  50

  52

  55

  58

  61

  60

  60

  455

  Fife

  15

  15

  25

  25

  30

  35

  35

  40

  45

  48

  50

  52

  55

  50

  50

  50

  50

  Grampian

  15

  15

  25

  25

  30

  35

  42

  142

  142

  145

  150

  155

  158

  160

  163

  n/a

  n/a

  245

  245

  255

  260

  265

  268

  270

  273

  Highland

  15

  15

  25

  25

  30

  35

  40

  50

  50

  50

  55

  55

  65

  65

  70

  74

  80

  634

  Year

  £ million

  1989–90

  8·7

  1990–911

  7·8

  1991–921

  7·2

  1 Capital allocations include earmarked resources totalling £0·159 million in 1990–91 and £0·148 million in 1991–92 (at 1978–79 prices) for innovative housing projects in the Ferguslie Park Partnership area.

  Homelessness
  Mr. McMaster
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will publish a table showing how many people were classified as homeless in(a) Renfrew district, (b) Strathclyde and (c) Scotland in each year since 1975; if he will express the percentage change in each year; and if he will make a statement.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  The available information relates to households who applied to local authorities under the homeless persons legislation, which came into operation in 1978. These statistics are conventionally presented for financial rather than calendar years. The numbers of such households assessed by local authorities as homeless in Renfrew district, Strathclyde and Scotland in the years 1978–79 to 1989–90 are set out in the following table. Figures for 1990–91 are not yet available.

  each authority to fulfil their statutory duty to provide free meals for pupils from families in receipt of income support.

  The average cost to pupils of school meals is not collected centrally. Pupils can obtain either a fixed meal at a set charge or a cafeteria style meal for which the charge will vary depending on individual pupil's choice. The table gives details of the fixed price meal charge levied by each regional authority in each year since 1975. The level of the charge made is entirely at the discretion of the regional authority.
  635

  Region or Island authority

  1975

  1976

  1977

  1978

  1979

  1980

  1981

  1982

  1983

  1984

  1985

  1986

  1987

  1988

  1989

  1990

  1991

  Lothian

  15

  15

  25

  25

  30

  35

  35

  35

  45

  45

  150

  150

  150

  150

  155

  155

  160

  255

  255

  255

  255

  260

  260

  265

  Strathclyde

  15

  15

  25

  25

  30

  35

  40

  45

  50

  53

  55

  58

  61

  63

  64

  67

  79

  Tayside

  15

  15

  25

  25

  30

  35

  40

  45

  50

  145

  50

  55

  60

  60

  65

  65

  65

  250

  Orkney

  15

  15

  25

  25

  30

  35

  35

  40

  50

  50

  50

  55

  60

  60

  60

  70

  70

  Shetland

  15

  15

  25

  25

  30

  35

  35

  35

  35

  45

  50

  50

  55

  60

  60

  65

  75

  Western Isles

  15

  15

  25

  25

  30

  35

  35

  40

  45

  60

  65

  65

  65

  65

  70

  70

  70

  1Primary.

  2Secondary.

  3Standard Meal.

  4Mini Meal.

  Notes: 1. Except where indicated otherwise the same charge applied to both primary and secondary schools.

  2. Prior to 1981 charges for a fixed price meal were set by statutory regulation on national basis.

  3. The charges for 1991 have not yet been published.

  Inward Investment
  Mr. McMaster
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he has taken to encourage inward investment into Scotland over the last 12 months.

  Mr. Allan Stewart
  My Department has continued, through the work of Locate in Scotland, to promote Scotland as a location for inward investment.

  Mr. McMaster
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he has taken to encourage inward investment into Paisley, Johnstone and Elderslie over the last 12 months.

  Mr. Allan Stewart
  My Department has continued, through the work of Locate in Scotland, to promote Scotland as a location for inward investment. Locate in Scotland does not, however, seek to concentrate its efforts on individual towns or localities.

  Shopping Trollies
  Mr. McMaster
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he has any plans to increase the powers available to(a) local authorities and (b) the police against those who abandon shopping trollies on a public highway or on public property; and if he will make a statement.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  I shall write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Foxbar (Rivers)
  Mr. McMaster
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the visit by the Parliamentary Under-Secretary to the Foxbar (Rivers) area of Paisley earlier this year; if he has yet considered any initiatives to improve the conditions and alleviate the problems in that area; and if he will make a statement.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  I visited Foxbar on 7 June and was impressed by the positive approach of both the district council and the local community to the regeneration of housing in this area. I encouraged the council to develop its investment strategy for the area in conjunction with Scottish Homes and other housing providers and to highlight proposals in its housing capital programme which is due to be submitted to the Scottish Office by 1 November. The council's proposals will be taken into account before decisions about housing capital allocations for 1992–93 are taken in December.

  Empty Properties
  Mr. McMaster
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will publish a table showing the most recent estimate of the number of void dwelling units in the ownership of(a) Government agencies or departments, (b) local authorities, (c) private landlords and (d) housing associations; and if he will make a statement.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  Information on local authority property which was vacant at 31 March 1990 was published in table 15 of the Scottish Office "Statistical Bulletin HSU No 17" which is available in the Library. Comparable figures for Government agencies or Departments, private landlords and housing associations are not collected centrally.

  Mr. McMaster
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will publish a table showing the most recent estimate of the number of void dwelling units which fall below the minimum tolerable standards in the ownership of(a) Government agencies or departments, (b) local authorities, (c) private landlords and (d) housing associations.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  This information is riot held centrally.

  Education Establishments
  Mr. McMaster
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will list those(a) nursery schools, (b) primary schools, (c) secondary schools, (d) further education colleges, (e) central institutions and (f) universities which he has visited between his appointment and 1 October.

  Mr. Lang
  The following is the information:

  Establishment

  (a) Nursery Schools

  Nil

  (b) Primary Schools

  Nil

  (c) Secondary Schools

  Queen Victoria School, Dunblane Gordon Schools, Huntly

  (d) FE Colleges

  The Borders College, Galashiels

  (e) Central Institutions

  Nil

  637

  Establishment

  Aberdeen

  Glasgow

  (f) Universities

  Edinburgh

  I also visited Donaldson's School for the Deaf in Edinburgh which caters for pupils between the ages of 3–18 years.

  Health Boards
  Mr. McMaster
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will publish a table showing on a per capita basis the aggregate external finance allocated to each Scottish health board for 1991–92.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  Scottish health boards do not receive external finance allocations.

  Health Policies (Publicity)
  Mr. McMaster
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how much the Scottish Home and Health Departments have spent on the promotion and publicity of Government health policies in each year since 1975; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  I shall write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Local Government Finance
  Mr. McMaster
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will publish a table showing the percentage of annual rent charges committed to loan charge payments in each Scottish district council; and if he will make a statement.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  Local authority rental income is not committed or allocated to meet any particular item or items of expenditure debited to housing revenue accounts. The following table expresses the total loan charges debited to the 1990–91 housing revenue accounts of local authorities in Scotland as a percentage of the standard rental income credited to those accounts.

  Percentage

  Berwickshire

  64·1

  Ettrick and Lauderdale

  56·4

  Roxburgh

  93·2

  Tweeddale

  42·1

  Clackmannan

  50·1

  Falkirk

  55·8

  Stirling

  59·0

  Annandale and Eskdale

  101·1

  Nithsdale

  60·6

  Stewartry

  92·2

  Wigtown

  96·2

  Dunfermline

  48·6

  Kirkcaldy

  53·3

  North East Fife

  44·8

  Aberdeen

  66·6

  Banff and Buchan

  61·2

  Gordon

  142·4

  Kincardine and Deeside

  139·7

  Moray

  67·8

  Badenoch and Strathspey

  135·3

  Caithness

  106·4

  Inverness

  100·9

  Lochaber

  148·6

  638

  Percentage

  Nairn

  106·7

  Ross and Cromarty

  139·1

  Skye and Lochalsh

  211·1

  Sutherland

  126·4

  East Lothian

  58·8

  Edinburgh

  50·0

  Midlothian

  45·8

  West Lothian

  57·6

  Argyll and Bute

  85·2

  Bearsden and Milngavie

  76·8

  Clydebank

  59·8

  Clydesdale

  35·6

  Cumbernauld and Kilsyth

  52·8

  Cumnock and Doon Valley

  39·1

  Cunninghame

  50·6

  Dumbarton

  35·8

  East Kilbride

  63·6

  Eastwood

  44·2

  Glasgow

  72·8

  Hamilton

  53·4

  Inverclyde

  51·9

  Kilmarnock and Loudoun

  45·3

  Kyle and Carrick

  55·0

  Monklands

  56·8

  Motherwell

  51·9

  Renfrew

  49·6

  Strathkelvin

  50·9

  Angus

  51·6

  Dundee

  60·2

  Perth and Kinross

  54·5

  Orkney Islands

  124·7

  Shetland Islands

  270·6

  Western Isles

  224·6

  Housing
  Mr. McMaster
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what policy initiatives he proposes to take on Scottish housing.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  The Government will continue to ensure that substantial resources are made available to maintain and improve the supply of good quality affordable housing in Scotland and to assist the people of Scotland to realise their aspirations for greater choice of housing tenure. Resources for gross public capital investment in Scottish housing in 1991–92 exceed £1 billion, an increase of over 19 per cent. in real terms since 1978–79. Over 228,000 households have bought their homes and local authorities and other public sector landlords since 1979.

  The Government will continue with their policies of encouraging more choice, opportunity and tenure diversification.

  Mr. McMaster
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will publish a table showing, on a per capita basis in ascending order, the(a) housing support grant and (b) aggregate external finance for housing allocated to each Scottish district council (i) including and (ii) excluding moneys specifically allocated to the partnership areas in Glasgow, Dundee, Edinburgh and Paisley.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  I will write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Disabled People
  Mr. McMaster
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what measures each local enterprise company in Scotland has taken to ensure adequate provision for the training and employment of people with special needs and/or disabilities; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Allan Stewart
  Local enterprise companies were required to make adequate provision for the training of people with special needs and/or disabilities in their business plans; and their success in catering for the training needs of this group is one of the criteria by which the local enterprise companies are judged by Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise. I have therefore asked the chairmen of both these organisations to write to the hon. Member on this matter.

  Action in relation to access to employment is primarily a matter for the employment service rather than local enterprise companies, although they work in close co-operation.

  Planning Appeals
  Mr. McMaster
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many planning appeals there have been in Scotland in each year since 1980; and what has been the cost of conducting these.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  I shall write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Landfill Gas Schemes
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will list all the landfill gas schemes(a) currently in operation and (b) being proposed in Scotland.

  Lord James Douglas Hamilton
  I shall write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Dental Health
  Mr. Shersby
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the cost to public funds of preventive dental health programmes in Scotland for the most recent 12-month period for which figures are available.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  Preventive dental health programmes are the responsibility of individual health boards. Information on their expenditure on such programmes is not held centrally.

  At national level, the Scottish health education group (now the Health Education Board for Scotland) spent £5,700 in the financial year 1990–91 on dental health education.

  Hazardous Waste Imports
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will list by year for the last 10 years, and for each port in Scotland, the number of tonnes of hazardous waste that was imported.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  The Scottish Office does not hold centrally information on the amounts of hazardous waste imported through individual ports. Information on imports of waste is available from the district and islands councils who are competent authorities 640
  under the Transfrontier Shipment of Hazardous Waste Regulations 1988 which govern movements of such waste into and out of Great Britain. They have reported to us that 453 and 480 tonnes of such waste were imported in the calendar years 1988 and 1989 respectively. Figures for 1990 are not yet available.

  Redundancies
  Mr. McMaster
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will publish a table showing the levels of redundancies by industry, in Paisley, South for the period 1981 to 1991, classified by men, women and young persons; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Allan Stewart
  I shall write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Johnstone Clinic
  Mr. McMaster
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland when the new Johnstone clinic is likely to open; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  The position remains as set out in my reply to the hon. Member of 13 February, which is that the clinic is expected to open in summer 1992.

  Health Service Pay
  Mr. Galbraith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) if he will give the cost to health boards in 1991–92 of the nurses, midwives and health visitors review body's pay awards for that year and the amount allocated from the reserve to meet part of these costs;

  (2) if he will give the amount health boards will need to find in 1991–92 from existing funding in 1991–92 to meet the costs of the professions allied to medicine review body's pay awards;

  (3) if he will give the amount health boards will need to find in 1991–92 from existing funding in 1991–92 to meet the costs of nurses, midwives and health visitors review body's pay awards;

  (4) if he will give the cost to health boards in 1991–92 of the professions allied to medicine review body's pay awards for that year, and the amount allocated from the reserve to meet part of these costs;

  (5) if he will give the amount health boards will need to find in 1991–92 from existing funding in 1991–92 to meet the costs of the doctors and dentists review body's pay awards;

  (6) if he will give the cost to health boards in 1991–92 of the doctors and dentists review body's pay awards for that year, and the amount allocated from the reserve to meet part of these costs.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  I shall write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Firearms
  Mr. David Marshall
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what measures he intends taking to reduce the number of firearms available to criminals in Scotland; and if he will make a statement.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  Under the provisions of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 very strict controls are imposed on the acquisition and possession of firearms,
  641
  one of the purposes of these measures being to restrict the ability of criminals to obtain firearms. Responsibility for detecting illegally held firearms is a matter for the police who make strenuous efforts to prevent criminals acquiring firearms which they may subsequently use in committing crimes. The courts also deal very severely with those who appear before them charged with crimes involving the use of firearms. Firearms control is a matter which the Government keep under continual review.

  Estuary Conservation
  Mr. Galbraith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what plans the Nature Conservancy Council for Scotland has for progressing the conservation of estuaries in Scotland.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  I will write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Judges Library, Edinburgh
  Mr. David Marshall
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what has been the total cost of establishing the judges library in Edinburgh; what is the estimated annual running cost; and what was the annual cost when this facility was provided by the advocates library.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  The library in the Supreme courts has been built up over many years and no estimate is available of the cost of establishing it. In the financial year 1991–92 budget provision for expenditure on books and publications is £47,000. In addition, judges have access to publications held in the Library of the Faculty of Advocates for which a grant-in-aid, currently £500, is paid annually.

  Drugs
  Mr. David Marshall
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what is his best estimate of the total number of drug users in Scotland in each of the last 10 years.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  Because the unauthorised possession and supply of many addictive drugs is a criminal offence, it is difficult to make precise estimates of the number of drug misusers in Scotland; and official estimates of prevalence over each of the last 10 years are not available. However current estimates, based on surveys and other indicators, suggest that there are about 20,000 people in Scotland who regularly or occasionally inject illicit or other drugs. A larger number are likely to take illicit drugs such as cannabis by other means.

  To enable a more accurate assessment to be made of the incidence of drug misuse in Scotland, we established the Scottish drug misuse database in August 1990. The database collects anonymised data from medical and non-medical professionals and voluntary agencies.

  Construction Contracts
  Mr. Galbraith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will give the values of construction contracts placed by the Scottish Development Agency between 1 April and 1 October 1990 and by Scottish Enterprise and its local enterprise companies between 1 April and 1 October 1991.

  Mr. Allan Stewart
  These are operational matters for Scottish Enterprise and I have asked the chairman to write to the hon. Member.

  Parliamentary Constituencies
  Mr. David Marshall
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will list in the Official Report his estimates of the total population in each parliamentary constituency in Scotland.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  Such estimates are not prepared routinely. Those following have been obtained by dividing mid-1990 local government area populations amongst constituencies in proportion to the corresponding split of parliamentary electorates recorded on the 1991 register (qualifying date 10 October 1990). Some very small proportions have been ignored. I understand that the Registrar General intends to prepare new estimates when the relevant 1991 census statistics are available.

  Population Estimates for Parliamentary Constituencies Scotland, mid-1990

  Number

  Aberdeen North

  75,500

  Aberdeen South

  73,800

  Angus East

  82,400

  Argyll and Bute

  66,200

  Ayr

  84,700

  Banff and Buchan

  85,000

  Caithness and Sutherland

  39,800

  Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley

  72,100

  Central Fife

  72,400

  Clackmannan

  63,600

  Clydebank and Milngavie

  63,200

  Clydesdale

  82,600

  Cumbernauld and Kilsyth

  63,100

  Cunninghame North

  72,500

  Cunninghame South

  65,100

  Dumbarton

  79,800

  Dumfries

  78,400

  Dundee East

  76,000

  Dundee West

  77,700

  Dunfermline East

  67,800

  Dunfermline West

  69,300

  East Kilbride

  83,100

  East Lothian

  85,500

  Eastwood

  84,100

  Edinburgh Central

  69,100

  Edinburgh East

  57,700

  Edinburgh Leith

  70,800

  Edinburgh Pentlands

  69,600

  Edinburgh South

  76,100

  Edinburgh West

  74,700

  Falkirk East

  68,000

  Falkirk West

  65,600

  Galloway and Upper Nithsdale

  70,000

  Glasgow Cathcart

  60,200

  Glasgow Central

  64,200

  Glasgow Garscadden

  55,400

  Glasgow Govan

  61,400

  Glasgow Hillhead

  73,600

  Glasgow Maryhill

  63,600

  Glasgow Pollok

  62,000

  Glasgow Provan

  49,700

  Glasgow Rutherglen

  70,600

  Glasgow Shettleston

  68,500

  Glasgow Springburn

  60,100

  Gordon

  102,533

  Greenock and Port Glasgow

  70,000

  Hamilton amilton

  82,500

  Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber

  90,400

  Kilmarnock and Loudoun

  81,100

  Kincardine and Deeside

  84,900

  Kirkcaldy

  67,400

  Linlithgow

  82,000

  Livingston

  82,700

  Midlothian

  81,300

  Monklands East

  65,800

  Monklands West

  68,300

  Moray

  84,500

  643

  Number

  Motherwell North

  78,000

  Motherwell South

  68,800

  North East Fife

  68,900

  North Tayside

  72,600

  Orkney and Shetland

  41,800

  Paisley North

  61,800

  Paisley South

  63,600

  Perth and Kinross

  85,300

  Renfrew West and Inverelyde

  76,000

  Ross, Cromarty and Skye

  74,100

  Roxburgh and Berwickshire

  54,100

  Stirling

  74,900

  Strathkelvin and Bcarsden

  84,600

  Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale

  49,400

  Western Isles

  30,700

  Dr. James Crichton
  Mr. Galbraith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland to what uses any money realised by the sale of Dr. James Crichton's heritable and other assets in Dumfries and Galloway health board will be put.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  The former heritable and other assets of Dr. James Crichton form only a small part of the current Crichton Royal hospital site. It is not the intention of Dumfries and Galloway health board to dispose of any of these assets at this time.

  Mr. Galbraith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what guidance he has given to Dumfries and Galloway health board in respect of the sale of heritable and other assets acquired by the Board and which were part of the assets of the late Dr. James Crichton, transferred to the board's predecessor under the National Health (Scotland) Act 1947, and in particular the guidance he has given regarding the application of the free proceeds of sale of such assets; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  My right hon. Friend has given no such guidance to the health board. It is for each health board to consider whether NHS property should be made available for disposal, in the light of Government policy and legal advice, so that the proceeds can be used for the benefit of the NHS.

  Invoice Payments
  Mr. Simon Coombs
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what is his Department's policy on the payment of invoices to small and medium sized businesses.

  Mr. Allan Stewart
  I shall write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Health Board Boundaries
  Mrs. Ray Michie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make it his policy to compile and distribute to all hon. Members a map of health boards and their boundaries throughout Scotland.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  No. Health board boundaries are contiguous with local authority boundaries, and are therefore readily ascertainable.

  Insh Marshes
  Mr. Galbraith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) what information he has on,(a) the extent of the area of land at the Insh marshes, Strathspey, which has
  644
  been notified as a site of special scientific interest, (b) the main features of nature conservation importance of this site, and (c) the main factors necessary to maintain this status;

  (2) when the Irish marshes/River Spey were first identified as meeting the criteria for designation as a special protection area under the European Community directive on the Conservation of Wild Birds and as a wetland of international importance under the Ramsar convention; and if he will list the stages that have so far been completed in progressing these designations.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  I will write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Hospitality Costs
  Mr. Skinner
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the latest annual figure for the cost of hospitality provided by the Scottish Office; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Lang
  My Department spent £65,123 on official hospitality in 1990–91.

  Health Service Waiting Lists
  Mr. Galbraith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will give for each health board in Scotland for each specialty the number of patients waiting more than 18 months for treatment.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  I shall write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Chromium
  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will list by location all the sites where chromium powder and chromium waste is dumped; and what precautions are taken to ensure that it is not(a) inhaled and (b) allowed to come into contact with the general public.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  The Scottish Office does not hold this information centrally. The nature of wastes going into specific landfill sites and suitable operational terms and conditions are matters for the district and islands councils under the licensing provisions of the Control of Pollution Act 1974.

  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will list by(a) year and (b) by regional health authority for the last five years, the number of cases of (i) chromium poisoning and (ii) chromium contamination that have been reported.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  This information is not available centrally.

  Clinic Booking Systems
  Mr. Galbraith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will give for each health board in Scotland the number of clinics, along with their specialties, in which there was a system of block booking on 1 September.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  The information requested is not collected centrally. It is for health boards to monitor this.

  Solvent Abuse
  Mr. David Marshall
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many young people of both sexes in each local authority area in Scotland have been referred to children's panels as a result of solvent abuse in each year since the Solvent Abuse (Scotland) Act 1983 came into effect.

  Number of solvent abuse referrals to reporters by local authority area (1983–1990)

  Region

  1983

  1984

  1985

  1986

  1987

  1988

  1989

  1990

  Total

  Total

  Total

  Total

  Total

  Male

  Female

  Total

  Male

  Female

  Total

  Male

  Female

  Total

  Berwickshire

  4

  —

  —

  2

  1

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Ettrick and Lauderdale

  —

  —

  1

  6

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  1

  —

  1

  Roxburgh

  —

  2

  —

  11

  2

  —

  2

  2

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Tweeddale

  —

  1

  —

  1

  —

  1

  —

  1

  3

  —

  3

  —

  —

  —

  Borders total

  4

  3

  1

  20

  3

  —

  2

  3

  3

  —

  3

  1

  —

  1

  Clackmannan

  1

  8

  8

  12

  2

  5

  —

  5

  1

  1

  2

  3

  —

  3

  Falkirk

  —

  18

  31

  11

  11

  3

  —

  3

  2

  —

  2

  5

  5

  10

  Stirling

  3

  4

  8

  4

  1

  5

  —

  5

  4

  —

  4

  1

  —

  1

  Central total

  4

  30

  47

  27

  14

  13

  —

  13

  7

  1

  8

  9

  5

  14

  Annandale and Eskdale

  —

  —

  1

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Nithsdale

  —

  6

  1

  —

  1

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  1

  —

  1

  Stewartry

  —

  —

  1

  1

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Wigtown

  —

  —

  —

  —

  1

  —

  —

  —

  1

  —

  1

  —

  —

  —

  Dumfries and Galloway total

  —

  6

  3

  1

  2

  —

  —

  —

  1

  —

  1

  1

  —

  1

  Dunfermline

  6

  5

  11

  8

  3

  3

  —

  3

  —

  —

  —

  4

  —

  4

  Kirkcaldy

  2

  18

  14

  9

  7

  3

  1

  4

  2

  —

  2

  3

  —

  3

  North East Fife

  —

  1

  1

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Fife total

  8

  24

  26

  17

  10

  6

  1

  7

  2

  —

  2

  7

  —

  7

  Aberdeen (City of)

  12

  8

  32

  12

  4

  3

  2

  5

  2

  3

  5

  12

  —

  12

  Banff and Buchan

  5

  14

  31

  15

  3

  —

  —

  —

  3

  —

  3

  11

  5

  16

  Gordon

  3

  2

  —

  1

  1

  —

  1

  1

  —

  —

  —

  2

  —

  2

  Kincardine and Deeside

  —

  —

  —

  —

  2

  3

  1

  4

  —

  —

  —

  4

  1

  5

  Moray

  —

  —

  —

  2

  2

  5

  2

  7

  —

  —

  —

  11

  —

  11

  Grampian total

  20

  24

  63

  30

  12

  11

  6

  17

  5

  3

  8

  40

  6

  46

  Badenoch and Strathspey

  2

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Caithness

  —

  —

  1

  3

  9

  —

  —

  —

  1

  1

  2

  —

  —

  —

  Inverness

  9

  18

  8

  —

  1

  6

  —

  6

  5

  —

  5

  1

  —

  1

  Lochaber

  1

  —

  —

  4

  3

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Nairn

  —

  3

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Ross and Cromarty

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  1

  2

  1

  5

  6

  —

  —

  —

  Skye and Lochalsh

  —

  —

  5

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Sutherland

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Highland total

  12

  21

  14

  7

  13

  7

  1

  8

  7

  6

  13

  1

  —

  1

  East Lothian

  2

  4

  11

  8

  2

  c

  2

  7

  5

  1

  6

  1

  2

  3

  Edinburgh (City of)

  22

  59

  12

  10

  9

  9

  —

  9

  5

  —

  5

  4

  3

  7

  Midlothian

  4

  3

  1

  5

  4

  5

  3

  8

  8

  2

  10

  7

  2

  9

  West Lothian

  —

  3

  5

  6

  2

  2

  —

  2

  4

  —

  4

  7

  1

  8

  Lothian total

  28

  69

  29

  29

  17

  21

  5

  26

  22

  3

  25

  19

  8

  27

  Orkney total

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Shetland total

  —

  —

  —

  —

  3

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  2

  —

  2

  Argyll and Bute

  —

  4

  2

  1

  1

  2

  —

  2

  1

  1

  2

  —

  —

  —

  Bearsden and Milngavie

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  2

  —

  2

  Clydebank

  —

  1

  —

  10

  10

  3

  —

  3

  2

  3

  5

  5

  2

  7

  Clydesdale

  —

  —

  —

  —

  8

  3

  —

  3

  6

  —

  6

  7

  1

  8

  Cumbernauld and Kilsyth

  —

  —

  3

  —

  8

  1

  2

  3

  3

  —

  3

  1

  —

  1

  Cumnock and Doon Valley

  —

  5

  10

  7

  3

  —

  —

  —

  5

  —

  5

  —

  —

  —

  Cunninghame

  —

  21

  18

  4

  20

  15

  4

  19

  11

  —

  11

  10

  6

  16

  Dumbarton

  —

  2

  5

  2

  17

  —

  2

  2

  4

  —

  4

  1

  1

  2

  East Kilbride

  —

  2

  5

  1

  1

  —

  —

  —

  1

  —

  1

  3

  —

  3

  Eastwood

  —

  3

  —

  1

  2

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  1

  —

  1

  Glasgow (City of)

  10

  258

  206

  227

  170

  87

  9

  96

  70

  3

  73

  56

  21

  77

  Hamilton

  —

  26

  6

  10

  3

  5

  3

  8

  19

  1

  20

  1

  2

  3

  Inverclyde

  5

  43

  45

  22

  23

  11

  3

  14

  11

  1

  12

  2

  1

  3

  Kilmarnock and Loudon

  —

  14

  8

  36

  3

  3

  —

  3

  —

  3

  3

  1

  —

  1

  Kyle and Carrick

  —

  6

  6

  10

  4

  1

  —

  1

  13

  1

  14

  5

  3

  8

  Monklands

  —

  5

  6

  5

  3

  3

  —

  3

  —

  —

  —

  2

  —

  2

  Motherwell

  —

  9

  5

  9

  8

  13

  1

  14

  3

  1

  4

  11

  1

  12

  646
  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  The table details the number of solvent abuse referrals to reporters by local authority area. A breakdown by sex is available only for the years 1988, 1989 and 1990. The number of children referred is unavailable and the referrals may include some children referred more than once in the year.
  647

  Region

  1983

  1984

  1985

  1986

  1987

  1988

  1989

  1990

  Total

  Total

  Total

  Total

  Total

  Male

  Female

  Total

  Male

  Female

  Total

  Male

  Female

  Total

  Renfrew

  2

  55

  60

  46

  45

  11

  1

  12

  10

  2

  12

  29

  10

  39

  Strathkelvin

  —

  3

  1

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  2

  2

  4

  1

  4

  5

  Strathclyde total

  17

  458

  386

  391

  329

  158

  25

  183

  161

  18

  179

  138

  52

  190

  Angus

  —

  —

  4

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  3

  —

  3

  5

  —

  5

  Dundee (City of)

  9

  34

  20

  6

  9

  1

  1

  2

  11

  6

  17

  4

  7

  11

  Perth and Kinross

  —

  3

  7

  3

  —

  1

  —

  1

  6

  —

  6

  10

  —

  10

  Tayside total

  9

  37

  31

  9

  9

  2

  1

  3

  20

  6

  26

  19

  7

  26

  Western Isles total

  —

  —

  —

  —

  1

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Dementia
  Mr. Galbraith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what action he will take concerning the report, "Dementia in Scotland: Agenda for Action 1991–1995"; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  I met representatives of Scottish Action on Dementia on 3 September to discuss the recommendations in this report and a further meeting was held with officials on 17 October. The points made in the report will be taken into account in the development of policy.

  Data Protection
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has plans to issue an amended code of practice on the confidentiality of personal health information; and whether he will make a statement.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  There are no plans at present to amend the code of practice issued in June 1990. The need for a revised version will be kept under review.

  Incomes
  Mr. Maxton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the number of people in Scotland with incomes less than half the average income after housing costs in(a) 1979 and (b) 1988; and what percentage of the Scottish population this represents in each year.

  Mr. Allan Stewart
  I refer the hon. Member to my reply given on 14 October to the hon. Member for Cunninghame, North (Mr. Wilson).

  Seals
  Mr. Andrew Bowden
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many fish farmers and salmon netsmen responded to the voluntary survey into the shooting of seals at fish farms and salmon netting stations; what was the number of seals reported killed by respondents; and what conclusions he has drawn from the results of this survey.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  Returns are being analysed at present by the Department and the sea mammal research unit of the Natural Environment Research Council.

  Nurseries and Play Groups
  Mr. Maxton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will list the numbers of(a) children, (b) qualified staff and (c) full-time equivalent qualified staff in registered (i) pre-school nurseries and (ii) play groups for
  648
  each academic year from 1978–79 in (1) Kincardine and Deeside District, (2) Aberdeen District, (3) Grampian and (4) Scotland.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  The information which is available centrally is set out in the following tables. Staffing information on pre-school playgroups is not collected centrally.

  Children and staff in registered private and voluntary day centres as at 31 March 1988

  Children attending

  Qualified staff

  (Whole time equivalent)

  Grampian

  865

  110

  (75)

  Scotland

  1,855

  207

  (150)

  Places available in registered private and voluntary playgroups

  As at 31 March

  Kincardine and Deeside District

  Aberdeen City District

  Grampian

  Scotland

  1979

  551

  1,245

  4,922

  45,339

  1980

  550

  963

  4,712

  40,783

  1981

  572

  1,000

  4,729

  42,830

  1982

  629

  1,100

  5,158

  40,207

  1983

  682

  898

  5,022

  42,194

  1984

  690

  780

  4,674

  42,342

  1985

  716

  766

  4,996

  41,784

  1986

  816

  814

  4,730

  40,227

  1987

  769

  722

  4,909

  41,710

  1988

  803

  732

  4,668

  44,634

  Manufacturing Industry
  Mr. Maxton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will give the figures for manufacturing investment in Scotland in(a) cash terms and (b) deflated by the gross domestic product deflator in each year since 1974; and what would have been the total additional amount invested in Scottish manufacturing industry if investment had remained at 1979 levels.

  Mr. Allan Stewart
  The following table shows estimated gross domestic fixed capital formation, GDFCF, in manufacturing industries in Scotland in cash terms for each year since 1974 for which estimates are available. The table also shows the deflator for the United Kingdom gross domestic product (GDP) at factor cost for each year. It is not appropriate to deflate Scottish gross domestic fixed capital formation estimates using a United Kingdom gross domestic product deflator and there are no appropriate deflators available for Scottish capital expenditure.
  649

  Year

  Scottish gross domestic fixed capital formation in manufacturing £ million

  United Kingdom gross domestic product at factor cast expenditure based deflator 1985=100

  1974

  309

  29·4

  1975

  421

  37·5

  1976

  468

  43·0

  1977

  491

  48·3

  1978

  523

  54·1

  1979

  562

  61·0

  1980

  645

  72·3

  1981

  586

  79·6

  1982

  541

  85·2

  1983

  470

  89·9

  1984

  597

  94·8

  1985

  862

  100·0

  1986

  789

  102·7

  1987

  738

  107·9

  1988

  951

  115·1

  Source: Central Statistical Office.

  Mr. Maxton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what is his estimate of Scottish manufacturing capacity in 1979 and 1990.

  Mr. Allan Stewart
  This information is not available.

  EC Funding
  Mr. Maxton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the value in(a) cash and (b) real terms of European Community structural funds given to projects in Scotland in each year since 1974; and if he will give the Scottish total allocation as a perentage of (i) the European Community total and (ii) the total United Kingdom allocation, in each year.

  Mr. Allan Stewart
  The information is not held centrally and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Surplus EC Food
  Mr. David Marshall
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will take steps to make free surplus EEC food available to all pensioners; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  Under EC regulations the surplus food may be distributed only to the most needy in the Community. The Government have therefore made the food available to those persons in receipt of income support or family credit or those who are homeless and destitute or living in welfare hostels. There is only a fixed amount of food available under the scheme; if all pensioners were eligible to receive it, the amount provided to each individual would be small and the distribution costs high.

  Juvenile Macular Degeneration
  Mr. Wigley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will publish the latest available figures showing the total number of recorded cases of juvenile macular degeneration in Scotland.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  I shall write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Agriculture
  Sir David Steel
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the effect of the MacSharry proposals on agriculture on rural areas such as the Borders.

  Mr. Lang
  The Government have stated clearly our opposition to the discriminatory features of the Commission's proposals, which could in their present form, have serious consequences for farming in Scotland and especially in the less favoured areas. We have made clear our aim to achieve a reform which encourages efficiency; which applies fairly across all agriculture in the Community; which maintains financial discipline; and which builds in environmental objectives for the countryside.

  Hospitals
  Mr. Maxton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) if he will provide a table showing every hospital opening and closing in Scotland in each year since 1979, distributed according to Parliamentary constituency boundaries;

  (2) if he will list and name by health board (a) all the hospitals and (b) the departments in Scotland which have been closed since 1979; and if he will give (i) all the hospitals and (ii) the departments or wards which are currently subject to consultation in respect of possible closure by health boards.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  I shall write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Transport Funding
  Mr. Maxton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what is, for each year since 1974–75, the total amount of public funding on (i) local roads, (ii) motorway and trunk roads, (iii) railways and (iv) airports in Scotland in constant terms.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  I shall write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Appointments
  Mr. Maxton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland, pursuant to his answer in the Official Report, 14 May, columns 145–53, if he will give the numbers of appointments he makes to every quasi-autonomous non-governmental organisation in Scotland; and the date of creation of each body.

  Mr. Lang
  Table I shows the information requested as at 1 July 1990. The list is longer than that in my reply to the hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mr. Grocott) on 14 May 1991 because his question related only to those bodies on which vacancies would arise in 1991 and 1992. Table 2 shows the information requested in respect of bodies created since July 1990. In addition I make a number of appointments to United Kingdom bodies jointly with other Ministers.
  651

  Appointments for which the Secretary of State for Scotland is responsible, as at 1 July 1990

  Name of body

  Number of appointments

  Date of creation of body

  Aberdeen and District Milk Marketing Board

  2

  29 March 1934

  Advisory Committee on Dental Establishments

  6

  1 December 1975

  Advisory Committee on Medical Establishments

  15

  1 May 1972

  Advisory Committee on Scotland's Travelling People

  12

  1 July 1982

  Ancient Monuments Board for Scotland

  16

  15 August 1913

  Animal Diseases Research Association

  1

  1 January 1921

  Argyll and Clyde Health Board

  16

  1 April 1974

  Ayrshire and Arran Health Board

  19

  1 April 1974

  Borders Health Board

  15

  1 April 1974

  Boundary Commission for Scotland

  2

  16 February 1978

  Building Standards Advisory Committee

  15

  13 August 1959

  Caledonian MacBrayne

  8

  2 April 1990

  Central Advisory Committee on Justices of the Peace (Scotland)

  18

  16 May 1949

  Children's Panel Advisory Committee for Borders Region

  3

  15 April 1971

  Children's Panel Advisory Committee for Central Region

  5

  15 April 1971

  Children's Panel Advisory Committee for Dumfries and Galloway Region

  6

  15 April 1971

  Children's Panel Advisory Committee for Fife Region

  5

  15 April 1971

  Children's Panel Advisory Committee for Grampian Region

  3

  15 April 1971

  Children's Panel Advisory Committee for Highland Region

  5

  15 April 1971

  Children's Panel Advisory Committee for Lothian

  5

  15 April 1971

  Children's Panel Advisory Committee for Orkney Islands Area

  3

  15 April 1971

  Children's Panel Advisory Committee for Shetland Islands Area

  3

  15 April 1971

  Children's Panel Advisory Committee for Stralhclyde Region

  10

  15 April 1971

  Children's Panel Advisory Committee for Tayside Region

  5

  15 April 1971

  Children's Panel Advisory Committee for Western Isles Islands Area

  3

  15 April 1971

  Children's Panel for Borders Region

  2

  15 April 1971

  Children's Panel for Central Region

  2

  15 April 1971

  Children's Panel for Dumfries and Galloway Region

  2

  15 April 1971

  Children's Panel for Fife Region

  2

  15 April 1971

  Children's Panel for Grampian Region

  2

  15 April 1971

  Children's Panel for Highland Region

  2

  15 April 1971

  Children's Panel for Lothian Region

  3

  15 April 1971

  Children's Panel for Orkney Islands Area

  2

  15 April 1971

  Children's Panel for Shetland Islands Area

  2

  15 April 1971

  Children's Panel for Stralhclyde Region

  2

  15 April 1971

  Children's Panel for Tayside Region

  2

  15 April 1971

  Children's Panel for Western Isles Island Area

  2

  15 April 1971

  Clyde River Purification Board

  16

  16 May 1975

  Commission for Local Authority Accounts in Scotland

  10

  25 September 1974

  Committee of Investigation for Scotland (under the Agricultural Marketing Act 1958)

  2

  1 January 1931

  Common Services Agency for the Scottish Health Service

  9

  1 October 1973

  Consultative Committee on Freshwater Fisheries

  9

  21 July 1977

  Consumers Committee for Scotland (under Agricultural Marketing Act 1958)

  1

  1 January 1934

  Countryside Commission for Scotland

  14

  1 February 1968

  Craigie College of Education Governing Body

  3

  13 May 1975

  Crofters Commission

  7

  1 October 1955

  Cumbernauld Development Corporation

  10

  15 February 1956

  Dairy Produce Quota Tribunal for Scotland

  20

  24 July 1984

  Dumfries and Galloway Health Board

  17

  1 April 1974

  Duncan of Jordanstone College of Art—Board of Governors

  12

  21 May 1975

  652

  Name of body

  Number of appointments

  Date of creation of body

  Dundee Institute of Technology— Board of Governors

  8

  21 May 1975

  East Kilbride Development Corporation

  9

  8 August 1947

  Edinburgh College of Art—Board of Governors

  6

  16 May 1975

  Edinburgh New Town Conservation Committee

  3

  22 December 1970

  Fife Health Board

  18

  1 April 1974

  Fish Farming Advisory Committee

  2

  19 March 1990

  Forth River Purification Board

  11

  16 May 1975

  Forth Valley Health Board

  15

  1 April 1974

  General Teaching Council for Scotland

  4

  1 February 1968

  Glasgow Polytechnic—Board of Governors

  13

  23 May 1985

  Glasgow School of Art—Board of Governors

  9

  16 May 1975

  Glenrothes Development Corporation

  10

  25 October 1948

  Grampian Health Board

  19

  1 April 1974

  Greater Glasgow Health Board

  19

  1 April 1974

  Hannah Research Institute

  2

  1 January 1928

  Highland Health Board

  18

  1 April 1974

  Highland River Purification Board

  9

  16 May 1975

  Highlands and Islands ConsultativeCouncil (dissolved on 31 March 1991)

  34

  1 April 1966

  Highlands and Islands DevelopmentBoard (ceased to exist 31 March 1991)

  7

  1 November 1965

  Hill Farming Advisory Committee for Scotland

  14

  6 November 1981

  Historic Buildings Council for Scotland

  13

  17 November 1953

  HM Commissioners for Queen Victoria School. Dunblane

  7

  27 June 1985

  Horse Race Belting Levy Appeal Tribunal for Scotland

  2

  1 December 1963

  Irvine Development Corporation

  9

  9 June 1967

  Jordanhill College of Education Governing Body

  4

  13 May 1975

  Lanarkshire Health Board

  19

  1 April 1974

  Livingston Development Corporation

  9

  17 April 1962

  Local Government Boundary Commission for Scotland

  5

  11 February 1974

  Local Review Committee, HM Prison Aberdeen

  6

  1 April 1968

  Local Review Committee, HM Prison Cornton Vale

  6

  1 November 1975

  Local Review Committee, HM Prison Dungavel

  6

  1 November 1975

  Local Review Committee, HM Prison Edinburgh

  9

  1 April 1968

  Local Review Committee, HM Prison Glenochil

  8

  1 March 1976

  Local Review Committee, HM Prison Penninghame

  6

  1 April 1968

  Local Review Committee, HM Prison Perth

  7

  1 April 1968

  Local Review Committee, HM Prison Peterhead

  5

  1 April 1968

  Local Review Committee, HM Prison Shotls

  11

  1 January 1979

  Local Review Committee. HMYO Institution Dumfries

  6

  1 April 1968

  Local Review Committee HMYO Institution Polmont

  6

  20 September 1989

  Local Review Committee HMYO Institution Castle Huntly and HM Prison Noranside

  6

  29 February 1984

  Lothian Health Board

  18

  1 April 1974

  Macaulay Land Use Research Institute

  14

  1 April 1987

  Moray House College of Education Governing Body

  4

  13 May 1975

  Napier Polytechnic of Edinburgh— Board of Governors

  12

  23 April 1985

  National Appeal Panel for Entry to Pharmaceutical Lists in Scotland

  2

  1 October 1987

  National Board for Nursing Midwifery and Health Visiting for Scotland

  11

  15 September 1980

  National Galleries of Scotland—Board of Trustees

  9

  22 March 1907

  National Health Service Tribunal for Scotland

  1

  1948

  National Library of Scotland—Board of Trustees

  4

  7 August 1925

  National Museums of Scotland—Board of Trustees

  13

  4 June 1985

  National Panel of Specialists (medical)

  28

  1 January 1976

  North East River Purification Board

  6

  16 May 1975

  653

  Name of body

  Number of appointments

  Date of creation of body

  North of Scotland Milk Marketing Board

  2

  7 July 1934

  Northern College of Education— Governing Body

  4

  1 April 1987

  Orkney Health Board

  13

  1 April 1974

  Paisley College of Technology— Governing Body

  13

  16 May 1975

  Parole Board for Scotland

  15

  1 April 1968

  Police (Scotland) Examinations Board

  2

  1 January 1922

  Police Advisory Board for Scotland

  4

  24 June 1965

  Post Qualification Education Board for Health Service Pharmacists

  11

  28 February 1989

  Preliminary Review Committee for Life Sentence Prisoners

  5

  10 January 1980

  Queen Margaret College Edinburgh— Governing Body

  7

  16 May 1975

  Race Relations Assessors in Scotland

  10

  1968

  Red Deer Commission

  13

  1 October 1959

  Registration of Social Work Establishments Appeal Tribunal Panel

  12

  7 February 1983

  Rent Assessment Panel for Scotland

  2

  1 April 1966

  Rowett Research Institute—Governing Body

  2

  1 January 1926

  Royal Botanic Garden—Board of Trustees

  8

  28 November 1985

  Royal Scottish Academy of Music and Drama—Governing Body

  13

  16 May 1975

  Scottish Standing Committee Calculation of Residual Values of Fertilisers and Feeding Stuff

  5

  31 January 1949

  Scottish Advisory Committee on Top Grade Scientific Posts

  8

  1 April 1972

  Scottish Agricultural Consultative Panel

  25

  1 August 1972

  Scottish Agricultural Statistics Consultative Committee

  5

  5 January 1973

  Scottish Agricultural Wages Board

  4

  1 January 1937

  Scottish Central Fire Brigades Advisory Council

  15

  21 November 1947

  Scottish College of Textiles Galashiels —Board of Governors

  13

  16 May 1975

  Scottish Committee for Staff

  Development in Education

  15

  1 April 1987

  Scottish Community Education Council

  11

  1 April 1982

  Scottish Consultative Council on the Curriculum

  30

  31 March 1988

  Scottish Council for Education Technology

  14

  9 September 1975

  Scottish Council for Post Graduate Medical Education

  7

  1 May 1970

  Scottish Council for Research in Education

  3

  23 June 1928

  Scottish Crop Research Institute— Governing Body

  15

  1 February 1981

  Scottish Dental Practice Board

  7

  5 July 1948

  Scottish Development Agency (ceased to exist 31 March 1991)

  8

  15 December 1975

  Scottish Economic Council

  32

  1 February 1975

  Scottish Examination Board

  38

  1 January 1965

  Scottish Film Council

  8

  1 January 1990

  Scottish Health Service Advisory Council

  16

  4 October 1989

  Scottish Homes

  9

  1 April 1989

  Scottish Hospital Endowment Research Trust

  6

  1 April 1954

  Scottish Hospital Trust

  6

  1 September 1971

  Scottish Industrial Development Advisory Board

  12

  1 January 1976

  Scottish Legal Aid Board

  15

  17 November 1986

  Scottish Medical Practices Committee

  6

  1 April 1948

  Scottish Milk Marketing Board

  2

  26 May 1933

  Scottish National War Memorial Board of Trustees

  3

  28 October 1947

  Scottish Nuclear Limited

  6

  30 March 1990

  Scottish Police College Board of Governors

  1

  1 January 1955

  Scottish Records Advisory Council

  12

  1 January 1938

  Scottish Seed Potato Development Council

  17

  4 December 1981

  Scottish Sports Council

  15

  15 November 1971

  Scottish Studentship Selection Committee

  9

  1 January 1962

  Scottish Tourist Board

  7

  1 October 1969

  Scottish Transport Group

  6

  1 January 1969

  Scottish Valuation Advisory Council

  12

  26 September 1956

  Scottish Vocational Educational Council

  15

  29 March 1985

  654

  Name of body

  Number of appointments

  Date of creation of body

  Secretary of State's (Electricity) Fisheries Committee

  6

  1943

  Secretary of State's Advisory Panel of Economic Consultants

  9

  1 June 1962

  Shetland Health Board

  14

  1 April 1974

  Solway River Purification Board

  5

  16 May 1975

  St. Andrews College of Education Governing Body

  3

  15 September 1981

  State Hospital Management Committee

  13

  12 April 1962

  Tay River Purification Board

  6

  16 May 1975

  Tayside Health Board

  18

  1 April 1974

  The Queen's College Glasgow—Board of Governors

  12

  16 May 1975

  The Robert Gordon Institute ofTechnology—Board of Governors

  6

  22 October 1981

  The Scottish Agricultural College

  11

  1 April 1990

  Tweed River Purification Board

  5

  16 May 1975

  Visiting Committee HMYO Institution Glenochil

  11

  November 1976

  Visiting Committee HMYO Institution Castle Huntly

  10

  1 January 1983

  Visiting Committee HMYO Institution Cornton Vale

  10

  1 January 1983

  Visiting Committee HMYO Institution Polmont

  8

  June 1982

  Western Isles Health Board

  15

  1 April 1974

  Health Education Board for Scotland

  12

  1 April 1991

  Highlands and Islands Enterprise

  12

  1 April 1991

  Nature Conservancy Council for Scotland

  12

  1 April 1991

  Scottish Enterprise

  12

  1 April 1991

  NHS Waiting Lists
  Mr. Dewar
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will list the total number of persons on in patient waiting lists for NHS hospitals in Scotland in each year since 1970 at(a) 30 September and (b) 30 March each year.

  Mr. Lang
  The information requested is set out in the table.

  NHS hospitals—inpatient waiting lists1; Scotland; as at 31 March and 30 September

  Year

  31 March

  30 September

  1970

  53,305

  51,482

  1971

  51,675

  48,066

  1972

  1—

  52,468

  1973

  1—

  61,079

  1974

  1—

  56,182

  1975

  1—

  53,770

  1976

  54,442

  52,765

  1977

  53,974

  54,715

  1978

  56,987

  61,481

  1979

  76,968

  71,247

  1980

  70,195

  67,387

  1981

  67,908

  65,228

  1982

  66,880

  86,365

  1983

  96,933

  88,338

  1984

  85,543

  83,077

  1985

  79,262

  77,677

  1986

  81,249

  80,732

  1987

  81,324

  77,772

  1988

  67,226

  63,569

  1989

  61,011

  58,189

  1990

  58,287

  59,483

  1991

  60,693

  1—

  1 Not available.

  From 1988 figures relate to inpatient true waiting lists. These figures are therefore not fully comparable with the old basis waiting list figures. It is estimated that between 31 March 1987 and 31 March 1988 the waiting list fell by around 5 per cent.

  Toxic Waste Incinerators
  Mrs. Margaret Ewing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will list by location in Scotland the(a) current and (b) planned sites of high temperature incinerators for dealing with inland toxic waste.

  Mr. Redmond
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) if he will list by location the proposed new sites of high-temperature incinerators for dealing with inland toxic waste in Scotland;

  (2) if he will list by location in Scotland, the current sites of high-temperature incinerators for dealing with inland toxic waste.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  Works defined as incineration works in terms of the Health and Safety Emissions into the Atmosphere (Amended) Regulations 1989 include all works which operate to incinerate waste at a rate in excess of 1 tonne per hour. The works registered or deemed to be registered in terms of these regulations are as follows:

  Glaxochem Ltd, Annan

  Nobel's Explosives Co. Ltd., Annan

  Imperial Chemical Industries, Dumfries

  Nobel's Explosives Co. Ltd., Stevenston

  Rohm and Haas (Scotland) Ltd., Grangemouth

  Imperial Chemical Industries, Grangemouth

  BP Oil Grangemouth Refinery Ltd., Grangemouth

  BP Chemicals Ltd., Grangemouth

  British Steel Ravenscraig Works, Motherwell

  Royal Ordnance PLC, Bishopton

  Glaxochem Ltd., Montrose

  Blagden Packaging Ltd., Paisley

  Lanstar (Scotland) Ltd., Inverness

  Aberdeen District Council, East Tullis

  Clackmannan District Council, Alloa

  City of Dundee District Council, Baldovie

  Renfrew District Council, Linwood

  Orkney Islands Council, St Ola

  Shetlands Islands Council, Rova Head

  In addition applications have been submitted to my right hon. Friend for registration in respect of incineration works as follows:

  Isola Werke, UK Ltd., Cumbernauld

  Lothian Chemical Co. Ltd., Edinburgh

  Ciba-Geigy PLC, Paisley

  Cleveland Fuels Ltd., Renfrew

  Cardiac Surgery
  Mr. Eadie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the current waiting period for cardiac surgery in the Lothian health board area.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  The median waiting time for admission for cardiac surgery in the period April-June 1991 was 12 weeks. By definition 50 per cent. of patients admitted had waited for less than 12 weeks.

  Mr. Eadie
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will give the age and sex of residents in the Lothian health board area who are awaiting cardiac surgery.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  At 30 June 1991 there were 104 male patients and 45 female patients residing in the Lothian health board area awaiting cardiac surgery.

  Private Security Firms
  Mr. George
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will list the number of private security firms currently employed by his Department, the number of employees for 656
  each firm on the contract, the total value of each contract and the total value of all contracts for each financial year since 1984–85.

  Mr. Lang
  Information relating to the value of current contracts with private security companies and the number of staff employed on these contracts are matters of contractual and commercial confidentiality which it would not be proper to disclose.

  The total value of all contracts awarded during the period 1984–85 to 1990–91 is shown at item I following, and details of the private security companies with which contracts are currently in operation are set out at item 2.

  1. Year

  Total value of all contracts (inclusive of VAT) £

  1984–85

  68,384

  1985–86

  70,468

  1986–87

  261,306

  1987–88

  294,229

  1988–89

  515,982

  1989–90

  740,430

  1990–91

  925,331

  2. Companies

  Group 4 Total Security Ltd.

  Burns International Security Services (UK) Ltd.

  Wackenhut UK Ltd.

  Scotguard

  Securicor Ltd.

  Dounreay
  Mrs. Margaret Ewing
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland on how many occasions since taking office he has met with the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority to discuss the storage and reprocessing of spent nuclear fuel at Dounreay.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  My right hon. Friend has had no such meetings but officials are in very regular contact with UKAEA: in particular, Her Majesty's industrial pollution inspectors spent 53 days at Dounreay, carrying out various inspections and discussions, in the 12-month period ended 31 March 1991.

  RENAVAL
  Dr. Godman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is in a position to state the sums of money to be paid, by way of the European Community's RENAVAL, programme, to community projects in Greenock and Port Glasgow; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Allan Stewart
  A revised Strathclyde RENAVAL. programme was submitted to the European Commission in July but has not yet been approved. Once it has, all projects to be funded will be decided by a programme monitoring committee.

  Salmon
  Mr. Maclennan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what study he has made of the impact of drift net fishing in Irish waters on stocks of salmon in Scotland.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  Tagging of salmon smolts, and data on retrieval of tags in fisheries, is co-ordinated by the
  657
  International Council for Exploration of the Sea. The data are not sufficiently detailed to give an assessment of the impact of Irish fisheries on Scottish catches or stocks of salmon.

  Mr. Maclennan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what study he has made of the impact of driftnet fishing in British waters on stocks of salmon in Scotland.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  Drift netting for salmon has been prohibited in Scottish waters since 1962. An assessment of the impact of the drift-net fishery off the north-east coast of England on Scottish east coast fisheries is contained in the report "Salmon Net Fisheries" laid before the House on 17 October. Copies are available in the Library.

  Mr. Maclennan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what information he has received about the catches of salmon in fresh water fisheries in 1991 and each of the preceding five years.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  The reported catches of salmon for years up to and including 1990 are given, by statistical region and method of catch, in the Department's annual Statistical Bulletin "Salmon and Sea Trout Catches". Copies of these are in the Library. The fishing season for 1991 has not yet closed in all Scottish salmon fishery districts. The reported catches for 1991 will be published next year. Informal indications so far are that net catches have been lower than in 1990 and rod-and-line catches of salmon have been poor also. There are reports, however, of better catches at the end of the season in some regions.

  Mr. Maclennan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what study he has made of the impact of drift net fishing in the waters off Greenland and the Faroes on stocks of salmon in Scotland.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  The Faroes salmon fishery is a long-line rather than drift-net fishery. Quotas for this fishery and the west Greenland fishery are regulated by the North Atlantic Salmon Conservation Organisation (NASCO) on the basis of scientific assessments carried out by the ICES working group on north Atlantic salmon in which the Department's scientists take part. There are many factors which may affect survival at sea and return by salmon to rivers of origin. There are insufficient data to estimate the impact of high seas catches on stocks of individual European countries.

  Mr. Maclennan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what research is currently being undertaken into salmon stocks in Scotland.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  Scientists at the Department's freshwater fisheries laboratory at Pitlochry and marine laboratory at Aberdeen undertake a wide range of research on salmon. Details are given in the laboratorys' annual reports—copies of which are placed in the Library. I will send the hon. Member a list of current projects.

  Mr. Maclennan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what information he has received about salmon stocks in Scottish coastal waters in 1991 and each of the preceding five years.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  It is not possible to assess directly the stocks of salmon reaching or migrating through Scottish coastal waters. The only currently available data 658
  on stocks are for rivers which are monitored by fish traps or counters or, indirectly, by juvenile surveys. Data and analysis of such studies for east coast river systems of Scotland are given in the report "Salmon Net Fisheries". This was laid before Parliament on 17 October and copies are available in the Library.

  Mr. Maclennan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what study he has made of the impact of the industrial fishing of sandeels off Scottish coasts on salmon stocks.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  The Department's fishery scientists carry out assessments of the state of sandeel stocks and studies on the diet of fish including salmon. No evidence has emerged of a correlation between abundance of sandeels and survival of salmon at sea. The main feeding grounds of salmon are known to be in the north atlantic around Greenland.

  Cairngorms
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will be nominating the Cairngorms as a world heritage site before 1 January 1992.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  I wrote to the Director General of UNESCO Secretariat for World Heritage on 16 November 1990, informing him of the Government's decision to include the Cairngorms area on the tentative list for designation as a world heritage site of natural importance. intend that consideration will be given to the case for definitive listing once the Cairngorms working party has completed its work on recommending a future management strategy for the area.

  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland when he expects to receive the report of the Cairngorms working party setting out options for a management plan; and if he will make a statement.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  The Cairngorms working party is considering current land use practices in the Cairngorms area and the preparation of an integrated management plan consistent with:

  — the importance of the natural heritage of the Cairngorms,

  — the need to assure social and economic benefits to local people, land-users and those who invest in the land.

  — and the value of the Cairngorms for recreational purposes.

  It is expected to report in summer 1992.

  Blue Ear Pig Disease
  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what restrictions on the movement of pigs due to blue ear disease have been imposed; in which regions; how many suspected and confirmed cases there are in each region; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  Movement restrictions were placed, as a precautionary measure, in late June and early July on five premises in Scotland to which pigs had recently been moved from areas in England subsequently declared to be infected. No cases of the disease were suspected or confirmed on any of these five premises and the restrictions were lifted in due course. The premises concerned were in Dumfries and Galloway, Fife, Grampian, Lothian and Tayside regions.

  Training, Grampian
  Mr. Worthington
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) how many young people in Grampian region have received skill seeker packs;

  (2) how many employees in Grampian region have indicated their wish to be fully involved with training credits;

  (3) how many young people in Grampian region are eligible for the training credit scheme;

  (4) how many young people in Grampian region have activated their training credits;

  (5) whether youth training in Grampian region is available for school leavers who have not joined the training credit scheme;

  (6) what are the cash values of the training credits that have been offered to school leavers in Grampian region.

  Mr. Allan Stewart
  Operational details about the skill seekers training credit scheme in Grampian are matters for the local enterprise company, Grampian Enterprise Ltd, and Scottish Enterprise. I have asked the chairman of Scottish Enterprise to write to the hon. Member.

  Mr. Worthington
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland to what extent the Government's guarantee about youth training places is currently being met in Grampian region.

  Mr. Allan Stewart
  As far as I am aware, the Government's guarantee is being fully met in Grampian region. Meeting the guarantee is a condition of the contract between Scottish Enterprise and the local enterprise company, Grampian Enterprise Ltd. Scottish Enterprise monitors compliance with the contract; and would draw attention to failure to meet the guarantee.

  Mr. Worthington
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many employees in Grampian region were involved in youth training in 1990–91.

  Mr. Allan Stewart
  I regret that this information is not available. Grampian region was part of a larger area for the purposes of the Training Agency; and statistics were not kept on a disaggregated basis below area level.

  Sewage Treatment
  Mr. Simon Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will estimate what volume of sewage currently receives(a) primary treatment, (b) secondary treatment and (c) tertiary treatment in England and Wales before being discharged at coastal outfalls.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  Information is not held centrally in the form requested. However, in 1985, the latest year for which published information is available, approximately 319,000 cubic metres/day of sewage received primary or secondary treatment before being discharged to Scottish estuarine and coastal waters. For sewage discharges to all Scottish waters, based on population served by sewerage, some 24 per cent. received primary treatment, 44 per cent. received secondary treatment and 3 per cent. received tertiary treatment. Further details are in the technical report "Sewage Works and Discharges Archive Report 1987", produced by The Scottish Development Department, available in the Library.

  Renewable Energy
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what proposals he has to establish a renewable energy franchise in Scotland.

  Mr. Allan Stewart
  I shall write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Recreational Projects, Glasgow
  Mr. Sillars
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) if he will list recreational projects known to him built in the city of Glasgow in the last five years by either the regional or district council, where public funds from governmental or European Community sources have been employed;

  (2) what role his Department has in the question of the planning permission for a Glasgow indoor tennis centre.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  I will write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Yachting Grand Prix, Inverclyde
  Mr. Graham
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how much money was granted by the Scottish Enterprise Agency to the world yachting grand prix at Inverclyde, Scotland; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Allan Stewart
  [holding answer 21 October 1991]: Information on the expenditure by Scottish Enterprise in connection with the world yachting grand prix was contained in my letter of 16 October to the hon. Member. The expenditure by Scottish Enterprise was within its delegated authority and it would therefore be appropriate to seek any additional information about it from them. I understand that the hon. Member has already been in touch with Scottish Enterprise to request a meeting to discuss the matter; and that arrangements are in hand for that to take place.

  Halcian
  Mr. Dalyell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will sub-poena Professor Ian Oswald, emeritus professor of psychiatry in the university of Edinburgh, in relation to clinical trials, relating to the sleeping pill triazolam, known as Halcian.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  [holding answer 17 October 1991]: I shall write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  University Students
  Mr. Wray
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many of the(a) full-time and (b) part-time university students in Scotland came from (i) independent, (ii) maintained and (iii) other schools for each year since 1974.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  [holding answer 15 October 1991]: I shall write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Hardwoods
  Mr. Dalyell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what guidance he has sent out to end-users of hardwood in projects financed by his Department about policy in relation to the procurement of hardwoods from endangered rain forests and well-managed sustainable sources.
  661
  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  [holding answer 14 October 1991]: The recently published Department of the Environment "Environmental Action Guide" is available to staff in all Departments, including The Scottish Office, who are involved in estate management, construction works and general purchasing associated with the
  662
  management of buildings. It provides a framework for the consideration by building and purchasing managers of a wide range of environmental issues, including the aim of reducing dependence on non-sustainably produced hardwoods. More detailed advisory notes on specific topics, including timber, are currently in preparation.

Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock: The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Chichester.

World Population: Control
Lord Dormand of Easington Lord Dormand of Easington asked Her Majesty's Government:
What further action they propose to take to deal with the growth in world population.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (The Earl of Caithness): My Lords, during the next two years, we plan to establish at least 15 new projects aimed specifically at strengthening the coverage and quality of family planning and maternal health services; improving the reliability of contraception supplies; and enabling women to take greater control over their lives.
Lord Dormand of Easington: My Lords, is the Minister aware that of the many problems—and I recognise that there are many problems—concerned with population control, two need the most urgent action? First, this country's planning figure for 1991–92 as a proportion of GDP is 0.31 per cent. and is the lowest since records were first kept. That figure was given by the Minister of State, Mrs. Chalker, in the House of Commons last week. Secondly, according to the United Nations population count, about 100 million more women wish to make use of contraception which is simply not available. Will the Minister say specifically what the Government are doing or will do about those two problems?
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, our net aid programme currently stands at £1.78 billion. That is a considerable sum of money and we are the sixth largest aid donor. On the question of the wishes of women, as I said in my first Answer, we plan to establish at least 15 new projects in addition to those which we are already undertaking.
Lord Boyd-Carpenter: My Lords, will my noble friend commend to other countries of the third world the admirable example of Singapore? There Lee Kuan Yew has arranged to reduce the tax allowance on any family of more than two children.
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, that is a very interesting suggestion; and we too are benefiting from a reduction in tax in this country.
Baroness Robson of Kiddington: My Lords, is the Minister aware that, apart from the most important issue of providing enough contraception for the millions of women who are looking for it, one of the best ways of helping to reduce the population explosion is to spend money on the education of women? To what extent are the Government working in that direction?
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, as the noble Baroness will know from earlier answers on exactly the same question, we are trying to provide more support for literacy projects, particularly for women, because these enable women to participate more fully in development as producers, mothers and community managers.
Lord Renton: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that Mrs. Chalker, the Minister with responsibility on these matters, has done more to solve this problem than any other Minister in the past 40 years? Her policies are sound, sensible and are working. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Dormand, said, it is rather surprising that we are still spending only 0.31 per cent. of our gross domestic product on solving this problem.
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, I am most grateful for those remarks concerning my right honourable friend the Minister of State and the good work that she has done. As my noble friend will doubtless be aware, as a result of the efforts that we have put into this matter, aid for direct population activities has more than tripled since 1980.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, is the Minister aware that in China, which already has one-fifth of the world's population, the population is increasing by 15 million every year? Can he say whether the Prime Minister discussed this matter with the Chinese during his recent visit to China, and whether the Prime Minister was able to offer them any help in order to deal with what is, as they very much realise, a serious problem?
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister discussed a good many matters with the Chinese. I cannot recall at this moment whether population was specifically one of them. However, the noble Lord will be pleased to know that population featured in the Harare declaration.
Lord Norrie: My Lords, can the Minister tell us what are the guiding principles in determining aid for population purposes?
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, we have three guiding principles. First, that individuals, and women in particular, should be free to be able to choose when to have children. Secondly, that reproductive choices should be fully informed and not subject to pressure or coercion of any kind. Thirdly, that the quality of family planning services as well as their availability must be improved if they are to win people's confidence.
Baroness Ewart-Biggs: My Lords, is the Minister aware that Mr. James Grant, the Director of UNICEF, last year called for an increase in family planning expenditure from £326 million to £525 million by the year 2000? Do the Government plan to support that objective? The noble Earl mentioned 15 new projects. Can he say whether the funds that the

1415
Government will be giving to those projects will be additional to the funds already given to population projects?
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, the noble Baroness, with her interest in UNICEF, will know very well that our contribution to UNICEF funds in 1991 will be £9 million. That is the highest ever. I am sure that the noble Baroness will be grateful for that. As for future resources for aid and the ODA, the noble Baroness will have to wait for the recent discussions to be concluded.
Lord John-Mackie: My Lords, is the Minister aware that there are 1,000 million people in the world today on a starvation diet, and that if the problem of population is not solved the situation will become appalling? As it is so urgent, I do not understand why more is not being done, such as countries getting together to do something about it.
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, the noble Lord should be aware that an enormous amount is being done. I have already referred to the fact that population featured in the Harare Declaration which has been signed in recent hours. The Commonwealth has taken the matter very seriously, and it has been taken seriously within the European Community framework and on a worldwide basis.
Viscount Craigavon: My Lords, does the Minister accept that many people in this country are not asking for huge sums of money but merely that within the existing budget of the ODA a much higher proportion should be devoted to population activities?
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, that is why we have trebled the budget in the past 10 years.
Baroness Nicol: My Lords, is it not the case that in this country births still exceed deaths by 1.6 children each year? Therefore we still have a small residual problem to deal with here. How does the Minister propose to tackle that?
The Earl of Caithness: Not personally, my Lords.
Lord Dormand of Easington: My Lords, I recognise that the Government are making an effort in this field. When the Minister says that we are sixth in the league of contributions, that is very laudable. However, I, and people who support my view, are saying that we ought to be doing more on such a serious problem. There is an increase of 100 million people on our planet every year, and some of us regard that as an explosion which is only second to a nuclear explosion.
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, the noble Lord will know that when the Labour Party was in power they actually reduced, in cash terms, the amount of aid. We have not done that.

Namibian Elections: Alleged Interference
2.47 p.m.
Lord Hatch of Lusby Lord Hatch of Lusby asked Her Majesty's Government:
In the light of admissions made by the South African President and Foreign Minister, whether they have protested against South Africa's interference in the Namibian elections.
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, no.
Lord Hatch of Lusby: My Lords, does the noble Earl agree that it is an abominable breach of international treaty practice for one country—in this case, South Africa—after agreeing to fair and free elections in Namibia to then give funds to parties in that election who were opposing the majority party; that is, SWAPO? Does he also agree that as this has now been publicly admitted by the President and Foreign Minister of South Africa it is not surprising that members of the African National Congress are at least suspicious of the actions of the South African Government in any impending elections within South Africa itself?
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, we have always made clear that the South African Government should cease unwarranted interference in the affairs of its neighbours.
Baroness Ewart-Biggs: My Lords, in view of the anxieties regarding a peace process and the scandal that the Inkathagate event brought out, will the Minister say whether this was discussed at the Commonwealth conference? Will he also say whether the Commonwealth Secretary will be raising those questions when he visits South Africa later this month?
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, those are separate questions from that on the Order Paper. With regard to the Question, I can say that we have noted with pleasure the measured response of the Namibian Government to this problem.
Lord Hatch of Lusby: My Lords, I am sure the noble Earl is fully aware of the British involvement in the long negotiations leading up to the independence of Namibia. If he now says that the British Government have always deplored any interference by the South African Government in the affairs of its neighbours, why do they not at least protest against the open interference in the election that led to the independence of Namibia—the open funding of anti-SWAPO parties?
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, I have answered that question.
Lord Hatch of Lusby: My Lords, the noble Earl has not answered that question. I am asking why—not whether—if the British Government have opposed interference by the South African Government in the affairs of its neighbours they have not protested when that interference has become public news through the lips of the leaders of South Africa?
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, that is the same question that the noble Lord put to me in his previous supplementary question and the same as his first supplementary question, which I have answered.
Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos: My Lords, the whole House is glad to see the better relations that are developing between our country and other Commonwealth countries and South Africa. Added to that is the success of the Harare Conference. Therefore, is it not unfortunate, taking all that into account, that the charges of interference by South Africa in the affairs of neighbouring countries should militate against the progress that is being made? Does the Minister agree that there is clear, indefensible evidence of interference? In those circumstances, it is not unreasonable to ask Her Majesty's Government to make clear representations to the South African Government. Will the noble Earl convey that to his right honourable friend the Prime Minister?
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, as regards our relationships with Commonwealth countries, the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition will have been pleased to read of the outstanding success of Her Majesty the Queen's state visit to Namibia. We do, and shall continue to, encourage South Africa to maintain progress towards achieving normal relationships with its neighbours. We believe that President de Klerk's action to restore confidence is a step forward.

British Airways: Engine Choice
2.50 p m.
Lord Morris Lord Morris asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they are satisfied that the decision of British Airways to acquire the GE90 engine for their Boeing 777 fleet is in the national interest.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Trade and Industry (Lord Reay): My Lords, I fully recognise that the decision by British Airways not to purchase the Trent engine came as a considerable disappointment to Rolls-Royce, but British Airways is a private and independent company and the selection of engines is a commercial matter for the airline's management alone to take.
Lord Morris: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer. Does he agree that it is very much the business of government to consider carefully, when major purchases are made by major British companies, that the long-term national interest takes priority over the short-term commercial interests of the company? Notwithstanding that point, are there any plans for an agreement with General Electric to establish an engine manufacturing capability within the United Kingdom now and in the future?
Lord Reay: My Lords, it would not be in the national interest for the Government to try to second guess the judgment of private companies or to dictate to them particular courses of action. With regard to my noble friend's second question, that is a matter for the commercial judgment of the company concerned.
Lord Dean of Beswick: My Lords, how many jobs—in man hour terms—have been exported to America as a result of what some of us believe to be a regrettable decision, bearing in mind unemployment levels in manufacturing? Is not one of the worst aspects of the decision that it may well threaten the next generation of aero engines to be produced in this country?
Lord Reay: My Lords, with regard to the employment implications, this is not an engine that is in production. Any employment implications will depend upon the number of orders that the engine gains, and in that respect there is all to play for.
Lord Bruce of Donington: My Lords, is the Minister contending, on behalf of Her Majesty's Government, that anything done by large privatised industries is thereby automatically in the national interest?
Lord Reay: My Lords, I am saying that in this instance it is for British Airways to decide what is in the best interests of its customers and shareholders.
The Earl of Halsbury: My Lords, will the Minister confirm that the Japanese found so astonishing the decision that a British airline would not place orders for engines with a British engine manufacturer that they concluded that there must be something wrong with the engine, and consequently did not place an order for it themselves?
Lord Reay: My Lords, I understand that All Nippon Airways was unwilling to be the first airline to choose the Trent for the Boeing 777 after British Airways had decided not to purchase it. However, it may be worth pointing out that a number of major airlines have yet to make decisions about whether to buy the Trent engine. They include Cathay Pacific, which is a committed supporter of British industry; American Airlines, which chose Rolls-Royce engines for the Boeing 757; and Delta Airlines. Thai Airways International has decided to purchase six B777s, plus six options, with Rolls-Royce Trent engines.
Lord Molloy: My Lords, in view of the fact that worldwide Rolls-Royce is acknowledged to be a great firm with a great engine, and that the workers and specialists in the industry are also recognised to be great experts, could not the Government show at least a little concern for the national interest and talk to Rolls-Royce to see that such an abominable event does not recur and that the Rolls-Royce engine maintains the name it so richly deserves—a good British name? Will the Minister tell us what is wrong with having a good British name?
Lord Reay: My Lords, British Airways is also part of British industry, with a turnover last year of £5 billion. To determine whether British Airways' decision was in the national interest would require a balanced assessment of the benefits to British Airways on the one hand and the cost to Rolls-Royce on the other. That is not something that I can do.
Lord Tombs: My Lords, I must first declare an interest as chairman of Rolls-Royce plc. Following BA's decision to buy the GE90, is the Minister aware

1419
that the next two choices of engine were made by committed GE customers—Thai Airways International and All Nippon Airways—and that neither selected the GE90 engine? The first, as has been said, chose the Rolls-Royce engine; the second the Pratt & Whitney engine, saying that it had been influenced against Rolls-Royce by BA's decision. They did not have any technical reservations about the engine. Is the Minister further aware that BA's sale to GE of its engine overhaul facility at Treforest gives GE control of a facility whose main business is the overhaul of a competitor's engines—in this case Rolls-Royce engines—an arrangement entirely without precedent in the airline industry?
Lord Reay: My Lords, the noble Lord makes an extremely good point with regard to the decisions taken by the airlines that he has mentioned. There is all to play for with regard to future orders for the Trent engine. As Sir Ralph Robins, the deputy chairman of Rolls-Royce, was quoted in the Financial Times this morning as saying:
"You can't read the whole market on two or three early 777 decisions".
I entirely understand Rolls-Royce's disappointment over BA's decision about the sale of the Treforest engine overhaul plant. The sale is being looked into by the Office of Fair Trading under the mergers provisions of the Fair Trading Act with a view to assessing its impact on competition in the market for engine overhaul services and the supply of aeroengines.
Lord Williams of Elvel: My Lords, does the Minister accept that we on these Benches wholly endorse the thrust of the Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Morris—that it is the Government's job to protect the national interest in these matters? We cannot allow great firms such as Rolls-Royce—the noble Lord, Lord Tombs is witness to this—to be disregarded by our own national airline when it comes to purchasing engines which are, without doubt, technically equivalent to other engines available on the market. Does the Minister further admit that the Government cannot merely shuffle off the sale of the engine maintenance plant at Treforest to the Office of Fair Trading? The Government themselves must take a view, and it must be a view that is in Britain's national interest.
Lord Reay: My Lords, with regard to the noble Lord's first observation, I cannot add to my original Answer. British Airways is a private, independent company. The selection of engines is a commercial matter for it. The Director General of Fair Trading will advise the Secretary of State in due course as to whether the acquisition of the plant at Treforest should be referred to the MMC. In those circumstances, it would not be right for me to make any further comment.
Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone: My Lords, since we are talking about the national interest, and in view of the slightly aggressive tone of the last question, may it not be in the broader national interest for the
1420
Government to maintain the principles for which they stand, which have always involved a measure of free trade?
Lord Reay: My Lords, I agree with my noble and learned friend.
Lord Ezra: My Lords, is not one of the issues underlying this matter the fact that as a result of the Government's privatisation programme there are now some large enterprises in the private sector whose decisions could well affect the national interest? That is a new development in British industry. In those circumstances, should not the Government retain some view and capability of expressing the national interest?
Lord Reay: My Lords, we believe that our privatisation programme has been in the national interest.

BBC Charter: Observance
2.59 p.m.
Lord Orr-Ewing Lord Orr-Ewing asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether, as "sole designated guardian" of the observance by the BBC of the terms of its Royal Charter, the Home Secretary, during the first 10 years of the charter, has ever inquired whether in accordance with Article 20 the provisions as to due impartiality, good taste and decency and offensiveness to public feeling have been "strictly and faithfully observed".
The Minister of State, Home Office (Earl Ferrers): My Lords, no.
Lord Orr-Ewing: My Lords, that rather negative Answer suggests that the Home Secretary has never exercised his obligation. Is my noble friend aware that the BBC plans to show a programme called "The Last Temptation of Christ" on BBC2? I have seen a summary of it. I find the film very offensive not only because of the sexual scenes but also because it ridicules Jesus and shows him to be weak and sinful. Does my noble friend recall the outburst and reaction when Salman Rushdie published a book which was badly received—understandably—by Moslems? In view of that and since the Home Secretary is obligated by the Charter, would it not be wise for him to contact the Churches and suggest that the film would be deeply offensive to the 70 per cent. of the people in this country who look on themselves as Christians?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, my noble friend's synopsis of my original Answer was correct. I quite understand that he feels that the film may be offensive but there are differing views about what is indecent or offensive. The programmes and scheduling are matters for the British Broadcasting Corporation and not for the Government.
Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone: My Lords, from the start I support the right of the BBC to independence under its Charter. However, will my noble friend bear in mind that the BBC imposes a tax, in effect, on all of us through our licence fees. Is it not

1421
outrageous that it should show such a disregard for the feelings of a great many people in this country who have to pay the fees? Is it not endangering its future by acting in this irresponsible way?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, I quite understand that people who buy a licence pay the fee, but they are not obliged to have the television on at every moment. They can always turn it off. I can only assure my noble and learned friend that, as he knows only too well, it is not the business or the duty of the Government—nor should it be—to determine what is suitable for the British Broadcasting Corporation to put out. That is why it has a board of governors and a chairman.
Lord Morris of Castle Morris: My Lords, is it not the case that when this film, "The Last Temptation of Christ", was on general release a complaint was referred to the Director of Public Prosecutions that was not upheld? Regardless of what many of us may feel is the offensive quality of the film, does the noble Earl agree that the issue of public decency with respect to the film has already been determined?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, it is perfectly true that in 1988 the Director of Public Prosecutions considered the film. He believed that it did not contravene the criminal law. I can only return to the original point—that what is put on by the BBC must be a matter for the chairman and board of governors and not for the Government.
Lord Winstanley: My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that in the light of the Government's recent efforts with regard to independent television we on these Benches very much hope that they will interfere with the BBC as little as possible?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, that is a helpful question.
Viscount Tonypandy: My Lords, I do not ask the Goverment to put pressure on the BBC. But is the Minister aware that the organisation has such a mighty influence in this land that the issue cannot be lightly brushed aside, as he did this afternoon by indicating that it is not a matter for the Government? No one in this land would tolerate abuse of the Prophet Mohammed, so why should we tolerate ridicule of our Lord? Surely we can ask the BBC to remember that it is touching a sensitive nerve if it holds our Lord up to ridicule.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, the noble Viscount is entirely correct to draw attention to this issue. It is a sensitive matter and I absolutely understand him or anyone else feeling concerned about the dissemination of such material on television. However, if we were to adopt the suggestions which my noble friend and others propose, it would mean that the Home Secretary—that is, his officials—would have the power to scrutinise all or any programmes about which there was a complaint, to form an opinion on them and to act upon it. This would mean not only curtailing the freedom of the BBC to decide what should be broadcast but the imposition of the Government's views. Whatever one's opinion of this
1422
film, it would be in accord with all your Lordships' views that it would not be right that the Government's views should obtain over broadcast material.
Lord Renton: My Lords, is the issue raised by the Question not a matter of whether the film offended against the criminal law but whether it offended against the Royal Charter? Can my noble friend say under what circumstances a breach of the Royal Charter by the BBC would cause the Home Secretary to intervene to ensure that the Royal Charter, which obliges him as much as the BBC, is observed?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, the sanction of the Home Secretary over the Royal Charter would be the ultimate one. That is why he has set up a board of governors to take such decisions. It must be for the board to make the decision.
Lord Glenamara: My Lords, I have both read the Kazantzakis book and seen the film. Is the noble Earl aware that in my opinion this is a beautiful, sensitively made film which, for example, portrays the crucifixion much better than any previous film? It faces up perfectly honestly to the fact that Christ, being a perfect man as well as perfect God, possessed sexuality as well as spirituality. That is what the film is about. It gives no offence at all to me, nor will it to millions of other people.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, that is an interesting observation on the noble Lord's interpretation of the film.
Earl Russell: My Lords, in the light of the remarks by the Chairman of the Conservative Party at the conclusion of the Conservative Party Conference, does the Minister agree that a BBC which appears impartial to the Conservative Party is no more desirable necessarily than a referee who appears impartial to the French?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, I am not quite certain what conclusion I am supposed to draw from that interesting question.
The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Waddington): My Lords, I am sorry to have to direct your Lordships' attention to the fact that 30 minutes have already elapsed for Question Time.

British Technology Group Bill
3.7 p.m.
Lord Reay: My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons consequential amendments be considered forthwith.
Moved, That the Commons consequential amendments be considered forthwith.—(Lord Reay).
On Question, Motion agreed to.

British Technology Group Bill

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS CONSEQUENTIAL ON THE LORDS AMENDMENT
  Page and line references are to Bill 59 as first printed for the Lords
  1 Clause 17, page 8, line 46, after ("2") insert ("[Offers for sale of securities]")
  2 Page 9, line 3, after first ("to") insert ("6, 7 to")
  Lord Reay: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now agree with the Commons in their consequential Amendments Nos. 1 and 2 en bloc.
  In speaking to Amendment No. 1, I wish also to speak to Amendment No. 2. Both these amendments are purely consequential on the original amendment passed by this House last week, with which the Commons agreed. Noble Lords will recall that that amendment would require the Secretary of State to consult the representatives of the universities about the sale of BTG.
  Amendment No. 1 is consequential to that amendment. It provides that the clause of the Bill which provides for this consultation will come into effect on Royal Assent rather than on the appointed day for the vesting of the assets and liabilities of the NEB and NRDC in a successor company which may be some time after Royal Assent.
  We make this amendment to ensure that the Government will have to commence consultation with the universities immediately on Royal Assent rather than some months from now. We believe that this provision for early commencement of the consultation process should be welcome to your Lordships and that it is entirely in the spirit of the original amendment in this House. I wish to add that my department will take the statutory responsibility to consult seriously and that my officials have already set up a meeting for preparatory discussions with the CVCP later this week.
  Amendment No. 2 is another simple consequential amendment. It ensures that the new clause proposed by the Lords amendment will extend to Northern Ireland. The original Lords amendment refers to the universities of the United Kingdom and the Bill would therefore be technically faulty if it were to exclude Northern Ireland.
  Although we saw difficulties with the principal amendment when it was moved, once it was carried in this House we judged it best to advise another place to accept it. We hope that it will lay to rest any lingering fears in the academic community that their views may not be taken fully into account during the sale process. We shall work to ensure that the objections to the amendment that I tabled on Third Reading do not apply. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Flowers, on the success of his amendment. I hope the House will accept these two minor amendments which tie up consequential points arising from the Lords' amendment to the Bill.
  Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons in their consequential Amendments Nos. 1 and 2.—(Lord Reay.)
  Lord Williams of Elvel: My Lords, the House will be grateful to the Minister for bringing these Commons amendments before us. We are also
  1424
  grateful for the words the Minister used in introducing the amendments. We thank the Government for accepting the decision of this House—that decision was opposed by the Government but was carried on a Division, as the noble Lord rightly recognised—which we feel gives greater assurance to universities on how the privatisation of BTG will work.
  We also welcome what the Minister said in another place on the 15 per cent. rule on the articles of association. That reply went a little further than the noble Lord, Lord Reay, was able to go when we finally said goodbye to this Bill when it left this House. The most welcome statement made by the Minister is that the Government intend to take the process of consultation seriously and have already set up a mechanism for it. That gives great comfort to those of us who feared that, as "consultation" is a fairly anodyne word, it might have been used in an anodyne way by the Government and comprise merely a few telephone calls.
  We on these Benches are grateful to the Government for accepting an amendment which was passed on a cross-party vote against the Government. I believe there would have been trouble had the Government not accepted the amendment. The Government have done the wise thing and I welcome the words the noble Lord, Lord Reay, used in introducing the amendments. We support the amendments.
  Lord Beloff: My Lords, in the absence of the noble Lord, Lord Flowers, I hope I may express the appreciation he would have expressed at the fact that the Government have advised another place to accept the amendment moved in this House. On the final day of the Session I express the personal hope that this action may be a prelude to Her Majesty's Government taking rather more seriously the expert opinion available in this House on matters affecting universities.
  Lord Rochester: My Lords, I just wish to add briefly that we on these Benches are very pleased that the amendment has been accepted.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

Municipal Waste Water Treatment: ECC Report
3.13 p.m.
Lord Nathan Lord Nathan rose to move, That this House takes note of the report of the European Communities Committee on Municipal Waste Water Treatment (10th Report, HL Paper 50).
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the report of the Select Committee on municipal waste water treatment is long and the subject in plain English—sewage—is unattractive. Sewage and biodegradable waste from industry, which are the subjects of the directive, can severely impair the environment. Therefore any measure such as a directive whose objective is to effect improvements in treatment is to be welcomed. An original draft was published in November 1989. The

1425
final text was agreed surprisingly quickly at the Environment Council on 18th March last. That text is reproduced as Appendix 3 to our report.
While the directive is to be welcomed, the costs of implementation are such as to make it imperative that appropriate priorities are set and that cost-effective measures are taken to secure the benefits intended. I shall give some indication of those costs. The evidence we received indicated that expenditure of more than £8 billion may be required in the United Kingdom. That sum will be additional to the investment programme agreed on the privatisation of the water authorities in England and Wales, which amounted to £26 billion, of which £12.2 billion relates to the provision of sewage services, and the £1.4 billion allocated to the United Kingdom programme to improve bathing waters.
A higher percentage of households in the United Kingdom is connected to the main sewer than in any other member state. Therefore it comes as a surprise that such enormous expenditures should be required in this country. Eutrophication, or over enrichment of water caused by excessive quantities of nutrients, primarily phosphates, as regards inland waters, has not received much attention in the UK except in special areas such as the Norfolk Broads, Loch Leven and Lough Neagh. However, considerable concern has been expressed at Community level about the problem. That has resulted in provision in the directive for designation of such areas as sensitive areas requiring, in addition to primary and secondary treatment of sewage, tertiary treatment designed to eliminate or greatly reduce discharges of nutrients.
The evidence we received on the position in the United Kingdom demonstrated sharp differences of opinion on the proper definition of eutrophication and, consequently, on its extent and importance. While the Department of the Environment took a fairly relaxed view in that it did not consider very extensive areas to be affected, others, including the Nature Conservancy Council and its successor organisations, the NERC and the Anglers' Association regarded the problem as serious and extensive. Moreover, it appears that in areas such as the Norfolk Broads, which are undoubtedly affected by eutrophication, tertiary treatment of sewage discharges is unlikely by itself to have a major impact because nitrates and phosphates enter the water from other sources, notably agricultural run-off and by constant release from sediments impregnated over the years.
The cost of installing tertiary treatment will obviously depend on decisions regarding which areas are to be designated. I hope that in her reply the Minister will give the House some guidance on the Government's present thinking on this difficult subject, and in particular whether they will make public the information and research upon which designation of areas as eutrophic is based.
The other main head of expenditure that will be necessary to meet the requirements of the directive relates to discharges to coastal waters. The main concern is that of the total population of the United Kingdom, about 13 million people live around the
1426
coast. Sewage from such communities has been discharged to the sea, often untreated through short outfalls. Enormous expenditure is presently being incurred with a view to eliminating these short sea outfalls, bringing the sewage to a sewage works some way inland and then, after preliminary treatment, discharging it through long sea outfalls. Generally, neither primary nor secondary treatment is provided.
One instance of such works which the Select Committee visited at the invitation of Wessex Water plc is situated near Weymouth. The short sea outfalls from Weymouth which discharged into Weymouth bay had been eliminated. All the sewage, together with that from Portland Bill, is now brought inland to headworks from which it is discharged by a long sea outfall west of Portland Bill. By these substantial engineering works, discharges of sewage into Weymouth bay have been eliminated. The discharges have been subject to preliminary treatment but not to primary or secondary treatment. We were told that monitoring of beaches near the outfall revealed that the water there complies with the bathing water directive. Under the directive primary and secondary treatment are required for all significant coastal discharges except for those to areas designated as less sensitive which may be limited to primary treatment only.
Primary treatment, if introduced into the Weymouth scheme, would, it is estimated, cost about £30 million. Secondary treatment would cost a further £50 million.
The directive enables member states to designate coastal waters and estuaries as less sensitive areas if discharges subject only to primary treatment will not adversely affect the environment. The Department of the Environment estimates of the cost of compliance, which are quoted in the report, appear to indicate that it is the Government's intention that all coastal discharges will be subject only to primary treatment and therefore that all coastal waters will be designated as less sensitive areas. It would be of great assistance if the Minister could indicate what the policy of the Government is in relation to designation of less sensitive areas and whether information as to the basis of decisions will be made public.
It should be noted that the costs to which I referred, which derive directly from implementation of the directive, do not include additional costs arising from the increase in the volume of sewage sludge which has to be disposed of—estimated by the Water Services Association at between 20 per cent. and 40 per cent. of existing volumes. Elimination by 1998 of dumping of sewage at sea, as required by the directive and as agreed by the United Kingdom at the North Sea Conference in 1987, compounds the problems of funding alternative disposal routes. There are sharp differences in the impact that that will have in different areas. For instance, Thames Water will have to find alternative disposal routes for 40 per cent. of its sewage sludge; Northern Ireland, 60 per cent.; and Strathclyde and Lothian, 92 per cent.
We received interesting evidence about the development of new techniques for disposing of sewage sludge by recycling to produce soil conditioner

1427
and fertiliser acceptable for use in agriculture, horticulture and, indeed, in private gardens. Other Members of your Lordships' House who have made a deeper study will no doubt refer to such points. The urgent need for those developments prompted us to conclude that the Community itself should become involved. It would be interesting to know whether the Minister has anything to say as to the Government's policy.
Most of the costs to which I have referred will fall directly on the sewerage undertakings. In England and Wales those costs will be passed on to the householder through increased prices. Obviously costs will be heavier in some regions than in others. Water charges vary across the country, but the variations are likely to be far greater due to the directive. In some regions charges may need to increase by 25 per cent. We express concern in our report as to whether that is a desirable development. Have the Government a policy relating to variations in charges? In Scotland, where the cost of implementing the directive will be disproportionately high, councils will have to find the additional expenditure from increases in local taxation.
It is in the context of cost that we considered with particular care the provisions of the directive which set limit values which would always have to be respected to protect the environment. We are concerned that specifying the means to be used to protect the environment rather than the environmental quality to be achieved is insufficiently selective and therefore wasteful of resources and distorts priorities.
The application of limit values to sewage seems particularly inappropriate when the effects are on the whole localised and dependent on the nature of the effluent, the nature of the receiving water and the climate. It is perhaps worth noting that the dangerous substances directive which regulates the discharge of persistent toxic and bioaccumulable substances, the most dangerous of all, itself allows an environmental quality approach to be adopted. It is a pity that that example was not followed in the present case.
Under the Water Act 1989 water quality objectives are to be established for controlled waters and discharge consents will be set by the National Rivers Authority in conformity with them. Will the Minister indicate whether the Government concur with those views and whether they will seek amendments to incorporate environmental quality objectives as an alternative to limit values or perhaps promote change through the Committee of Adaptation which is provided for in the directive?
The report is a long and heavy one. The directive is extensive in its provisions and its implications; the costs in resources and money enormous. It represents a major contribution to environmental protection. The problems we have in this country and the expense of solving them must be small, however, compared with other member states, in some of which only 10 per cent. of households are connected to the main sewer. It is indeed remarkable that such major legislation has been adopted by the Community. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House takes note of the report of the European Communities Committee on Municipal Waste Water Treatment (10th Report, H.L. Paper 50).—(Lord Nathan.)
3.26 p.m.
Lord Nugent of Guildford: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, for his very interesting speech introducing his report. It is a monumental report.
Sewage is not a subject which interests many people. Even noble Lords, with their strong intellectual background, do not stay in large numbers for such debates. It is a subject which is very seldom discussed over the dinner or lunch table. It is a rather esoteric subject. Yet, as the noble Lord rightly said, it is enormously important. First, the disposal of sewage is immensely costly. We are now embarked on a programme costing some £20 billion, as the noble Lord said, and the directive has implications which will cost anything between £10 billion and £20 billion. Secondly, the disposal of sewage touches almost every aspect of environmental conservation. Therefore it is an extremely important subject.
This report, with its penetrating review of these complex and important matters, is magnificent. Its marshalling and discussion of the evidence is a marvel of lucidity. Without doubt it is the best review of the problems of waste water disposal and the solutions to those problems that I have ever seen. I warmly congratulate the noble Lord and his committee on producing such a valuable document. I hope that it will be closely studied in Brussels.
The directive, in effect, proposes minimum quality standards for discharge to rivers which are less stringent than the BOD standards laid down in this country in 1912 by the Royal Commission, although it is true that those standards were by no means generally achieved in Britain until the Water Act 1973 established a national water industry with the necessary powers to clean up the black spots—which were many. I noted that the NRA forecasts virtually 100 per cent. compliance throughout the country by 1992.
Of course there will be problems with farm pollution due to accidents, storm water overflows, etc. However, those who have joined in the cry that Britain is the "dirty man of Europe" are off beam if one compares the achievements and general standards here with those of the rest of Europe.
The report takes issue—the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, mentioned this point—with the imposition of uniform limit values for discharges and argues convincingly for environmental quality objectives as the wiser approach. That rather technical term means in effect that discharge standards should be related to the quality of the receiving water. That does not appear to be much more than common sense.
I could claim to have been a pioneer of that argument, having introduced environmental water quality objectives for river discharges in 1977 when I was chairman of the National Water Council, although there were murmurs along those lines in the 1951 water Act, which most people appear to have

1429
forgotten. The 10 regional water authority chairmen were reluctant to accept my lead because of the heavy cost involved, but they accepted the logic and made a start. It was accompanied by the obligation to publish registers of all discharges in their regions, so that the spur of public opinion was permanently applied to their flanks. That has served well in the interim. M. Carpentier was the EC Environment Commissioner in 1977. He and I had some interesting discussions on the relative merits of EQOs and uniform limit values. We never quite convinced each other, but we were both quite sure that we were on the right track.
It is interesting to note—I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, made this point—that the Commission has now in principle accepted the validity of EQOs by differentiating between sensitive and non-sensitive tidal waters. I hope that the noble Lord's authoritative report may convince the Commission of the wisdom of accepting EQOs for general application. It would be a sensible thing to do. However, I cannot agree with the noble Lord in paragraph 146 of the report that Her Majesty's Government's intention to classify all tidal waters as non-sensitive is wrong. I believe that it is right. The implication that secondary treatment may be needed in some cases has unacceptable consequences: first, the heavy cost to which the noble Lord referred and, secondly, even more sludge to dispose of. The right solution for discharge to tidal water is long sea outfalls which give massive dilution round our coasts with their powerful tidal currents—a very different case from the Mediterranean. The addition of primary treatment plants at heavy expense has, as the noble Lord said, already added belt to braces. In addition, it is essential to have more stringent pre-testing, especially for metallurgical industries before they are allowed to discharge their effluent into the main sewer. The metallurgical element in the effluent causes the danger.
This brings me to a major consequence of the directive; namely, the increased quantity of sewage sludge to be disposed of. The noble Lord, Lord Nathan, made some cogent observations on that matter. The report rightly calls attention to the problems involved in a large increase in incineration plants, yet at present this is the only major practicable means of dealing with the problem. Agricultural spreading is already at a higher level in this country than in most countries and, for reasons of soil and climate, cannot be significantly increased. However, incineration has serious objections. First, it is expensive and, secondly, it involves heavy use of fossil fuel and so directly conflicts with the Commission's policy to penalise fossil fuel consumption in order to reduce the dangers of global warming. Is there anyone in the Commission who says to commissioners, "Will you please put your heads together and try to integrate your policies?" Thirdly, the fume outfall is objectionable in smell, making it difficult to locate, and toxic in deposit. The quantities may be small, but what predictions have been made to compute the accumulation over, say, a 10-year period and the relative balance of advantage to the environment over
1430
deep-sea disposal, especially if more stringent standards are applied to metallurgical industries over the toxic deposits resulting from incineration?
I suggest that the commissioner—I hope that he will read my speech, although I doubt it—should write an essay on the principle of the indestructibility of matter. It is completely futile to shift pollution from one medium of the environment to another. The NRA is right in its evidence—I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, will agree with this point—in advocating an integrated approach to pollution control with regard to sludge disposal with a view to finding the "best practicable environmental option". There is no simple answer. It requires deep thought. I have already mentioned the problems of the cost of implementation. The extra cost to this country would be very heavy. At this time, given the capital needed for reconstruction in Eastern European countries and at least some applicants for Community membership crying out for attention, it must be asked whether the Commission is getting its priorities right in obliging all member countries to commit huge capital sums to that purpose.
My final point concerns the implementation of the directive—something about which noble Lords have heard me speak previously. It is to be done by monitoring by individual member states and by annual publication of results. How reliable will that be? On page 11 of the report there is a table—Table 5—of basic statistics regarding municipal waste water treatment in member countries. The many blanks in many countries' returns indicate that treatment in those respects is either sporadic or non-existent. It follows that monitoring returns from those countries will be incomplete and unreliable.
The Commission proposes to establish a European environmental agency. That is a good idea. Will the agency monitor the monitors and insist on the laggard member states mounting adequate capital programmes to meet the directive's requirements? That is an important question. That would be a necessary measure to maintain the Commission's authority and integrity. The proposed committee of adaptation is welcome, but it will be meaningless unless effective implementation is achieved. That implementation in the environmental field is the Achilles' heel of Environment Commission policy. The Commission must make a determined attempt to cure it.
Once again, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, and his committee for their magnificent report and I hope that it will have the influence that it deserves.
3.37 p.m.
Lord McNair: My Lords, I should like to thank our Chairman, the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, for his skilful piloting of our deliberations during the course of this inquiry. Never having previously been a member of such a committee I was a little doubtful that I would have anything to contribute. However, his relaxed but businesslike approach encouraged me to raise a point about which I feel very strongly. I am pleased to say that on page 33 of the report there is a reference to "Novel Techniques for Sludge Disposal".

1431
Any business—and the water industry does now consist of businesses—makes a profit by adding a value to something that it purchases or otherwise acquires. Sewage has been regarded as a problem that must be "got rid of". It is so much better to regard it as a challenge of resource creation. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Nugent of Guildford, would have been intrigued to have been at a meeting yesterday at which we were told that Simon Engineering, at its Horsham treatment works, using the Simon-N-Viro composting process, has been able to sell its finished product as a combined lime and fertiliser to local farmers. I understand that five of the water plcs are installing new treatment plants incorporating that process.
During our discussion several members were keen that some financial assistance should be made available by the European Commission to stimulate and encourage the development of various new ideas. I still think that that is both important and necessary.
On page 155 of the evidence the Commission stated that in its view,
"the reuse and recycling of useful substances … should be encouraged".
Some of the new ideas may not yet be at a sufficient stage of development to be sold in the market place and it would be unfortunate if only one of those approaches were fully evaluated. I hope that the Commission will back its words with some practical help.
Having said that, in this country we have the advantage in that several European countries have already had to develop advanced treatment processes and some German incineration plants are being installed in this country. However, incineration reduces but does not resolve several problems which occur in treating sewage sludge. If we approach the problem from the point of view of resource creation, we may find—I hope we shall—that not only have we improved the environment on land, in the air and in our rivers and estuaries but also possibly that the value of products thus created will slow the rise in our water charges.
I should like to make one further point. Under the waste water treatment directive the Government are charged with designating sensitive areas the criteria for which do not have to be set down until 1993. As treatment will only be carried out in designated areas the definition of such areas is a matter of considerable interest and importance. I hope that the Government were not among those who objected to the inclusion of all important areas of nature conservation as "sensitive areas" and to the qualification of only 1,000 people for phosphate stripping and other sewage treatment for discharge to fresh water and estuaries.
Finally, can the Minister tell me how many treatment works, together with the percentage of the population they serve, fall below the criteria for the size of treatment works?
3.42 p.m.
Lord Bridges: My Lords, speaking as a member of the sub-committee responsible for this report, I too should like to thank my noble friend Lord Nathan for his guidance of our discussions and for the admirable presentation of the report to the House this afternoon. Having said that, I feel that the House deserves an apology in that the Select Committee has inflicted on your Lordships a long and very closely argued report on a subject which is not of immediate allure. However, there are strong reasons to believe that it is a subject of great importance. I want briefly to explain some of my reasons for believing that.
The first is the importance of the condition of the aquatic environment into which the waste waters are discharged. After all, we drink water taken from the rivers; fish is still a very important part of our diet; and we bathe in the sea, which in itself is a key regulator and perhaps the key regulator of the world's climate.
A second consideration, which has already been mentioned, is the enormous size of the investment required under both this directive and other EC directives and because of commitments made in this country at the time of privatisation of the water industry. In paragraph 186 of the report there is a calculation which shows that that investment is well over £20 billion. As has already been mentioned—I underline the point as I believe it to be important—those who use water may have to pay a 25 per cent. increase in their charges in order to pay for those essential improvements.
So for those reasons and no doubt others, it seemed very desirable to members of the sub-committee to produce a thorough report. We tried to produce not just a comment on one or two points in the directive but a basic reference document for future use. I was interested to hear the noble Lord, Lord Nugent of Guildford, refer to the 1912 report of the Royal Commission. I believe that our report is perhaps the most thorough document that has been prepared for parliamentary use since that time.
Before commenting on some aspects of the report I should like to emphasise one specific matter which has not been spoken to so far. The directive has already been approved by the Council of Ministers and is now in force. Therefore the improvements that we suggest could not, as is customarily the case, be made at a meeting of the Council of Ministers before its adoption. Instead, we hope that changes to the directive can be introduced at a later stage as a result of experience.
That does not seem to be an ideal situation. Clearly as a general rule it is better for reports submitted to the House to be available in time for the Government and others to consider before the text of a directive or regulation is finally approved. Unfortunately, that did not prove possible in the present case and the sub-committee was faced with an awkward decision: whether to hurry forward the inquiry to a conclusion in time before the council met—and there was some uncertainty about when the council would meet and which meeting would prove conclusive—or whether to press forward the inquiry in a more deliberate and

1433
considered way so that we should have a more thorough and definite opinion to offer to the House. The sub-committee chose the second alternative and I believe that there were strong reasons for doing so.
However, the point is of wider interest since similar problems are likely to occur in the future with the acceleration in the tempo of Community business, which we have already noticed as a consequence of the Single European Act. It may become even more marked after the inter-governmental conferences have agreed to further changes to the European treaties.
I should like briefly to call attention to a few issues in the report which seem to me to be of special importance. The first is the directive's reliance on uniform limit values rather than on the condition of the receiving waters. The Commission is rightly determined to improve to an acceptable level the condition of Europe's rivers, estuaries and the waters around our shores. I believe that it would not be too difficult to define in scientific terms what that standard should be. But the nature of the waters varies widely, from the turbulent seas of the North Atlantic and the North Sea to the less tidal, more enclosed waters of the Baltic Sea and the Mediterranean. Instead of specifying different effluent limits for those quite different conditions so as to achieve a common result, the Co emission preferred to adopt uniform waste water standards for all. That may be easier to enforce and to present as an even-handed solution, but it must also mean that if satisfactory standards are to be reached for the more enclosed seas, discharges to the more open and disturbed seas will be specified to a more exacting standard than is often necessary.
That is the position in the directive and the consequences, I expect, will prove to be expensive, although the discretion available to the Government to classify waters as less sensitive areas may perhaps mitigate the cost. Nevertheless it looks to me as though that approach is open to that basic criticism and that by adopting equality of treatment for all, applied in the manner that I have described, we shall end up with overshoot. It is perhaps not for the first time that the application of the principle of equality has produced that result.
A second difficulty with the directive, which has not been mentioned, is that it does not deal with the problem of storm waters. As is explained in the report, the effect of heavy rain is to cause large volumes of untreated sewage to be discharged into the sea or rivers. In many cases the systems are not designed to cope with such sudden increases in load. That is the situation in much of this country and there is reason to think that the situation elsewhere in the Community is no different. If we want to make a major and permanent improvement in the problem of waste water effluent, the whole question of storm waters needs to be addressed. The present directive does not do so.
The third issue that I should like to raise concerns the cut-off points below which no controls or limits are required by the directive. Two separate limits apply: one for smaller treatment works, the other for industrial discharges. For smaller treatment works—and these deal with relatively small communities—the
1434
limit below which controls do not apply is set at a capacity measured in population terms of 10,000 population equivalent. The sub-committee thought that that was an uncomfortably large exemption since local conditions vary considerably. Some smaller works will definitely require modification if we are to tackle the question of eutrophication in fresh waters.
The second limit concerns direct discharges by industries which are exempt from control—that is, plants with below 4,000 population equivalent. But we have reason to believe that discharges from particular industrial sources can be a significant cause of pollution. The sub-committee took the view that all industrial discharges should be subject to control regardless of size.
Finally, I should like to draw attention to Article 17 of the directive which requires all member states to draw up a programme for the implementation of the directive by the end of 1993. That will clearly be a most important task and the document will need to specify on a national basis the investments made and planned and the progress recorded to date. I hope that the Government, in fulfilment of those obligations, will prepare a thorough document. The subject is of real importance to the citizens of this country and to all concerned with the wider objectives of Community environmental policy.
3.51 p.m.
The Earl of Cranbrook: My Lords, I certainly echo the final words of the noble Lord, Lord Bridges. With my noble friend Lord Nugent I too congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, and his committee on producing a report which, while it may be long and detailed, is nonetheless remarkably clear and will be a valuable source of reference for some years to come.
I should like to pick up two topics that have been touched upon by previous speakers today. The first is the requirement to remove phosphates and/or nitrates from effluent affecting "sensitive" areas, as defined in the directive, from works serving more than 10,000 population equivalent. That has been touched upon by the noble Lord, Lord Bridges.
Enrichment by dissolved nutrients is a major pollution problem in the inland waters of England. The process, which is generally known as eutrophication—the term is defined in Article 2 of the directive on page 60 of the report—is well described in the report and in the evidence that was provided by witnesses. Nitrates are an essential component in the mix but it is generally the concentration of dissolved phosphate that is the limiting factor. Sewage effluent is the main source of phosphate.
Among the well known casualties to eutrophication in England are the Broads, which have already been mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Nathan. Within living memory clear waters and rich and beautiful communities of water lilies and other water plants have given way to clouded and murky river channels and to barren open broads. Too late was the culprit, phosphate, identified and steps taken to treat or divert inputs from sewage treatment works. It is part of the environment policy of the Broads Authority, of which I am a member, to strive to restore water quality and

1435
to regain the former plant communities that decorated the Broads in the past. The Broads Authority, Anglian Water plc, of which I am a non-executive director, and the National Rivers Authority are working together on research to find the right procedures.
Unfortunately, phosphate has accumulated in the sediments and, despite phosphate stripping from current sewage treatment work effluents, algal blooms continue. Other measures taken have included pumping out of sediments, isolation of selected broads from the main waters of the system and manipulation of fish populations. Some of those measures are also hugely expensive and themselves have environmental repercussions. In this instance it seems clear enough to me that prevention of pollution would be more effective and, in the long term, probably less expensive than all those difficult attempts to restore the collapsed ecosystem of the Broads. For those reasons I believe that the measures for nutrient reduction from sewage treatment plant effluents, in particular phosphate reduction, in the directive must be welcomed.
In the report noble Lords will see the preliminary views of the Nature Conservancy Council on the numbers of "sensitive waters" as defined in the directive. English Nature, its successor—of which I am chairman—in September submitted to the Department of the Environment a list of 112 inland waters and six coastal estuarine waters that meet the definition of sensitive. Those are all SSSIs or in some cases prospective SSSIs. They include some famous locations such as Derwent Water, Esthwaite Water, Windermere and Ullswater in the Lake District, and Rostherne Mere and Tatton Mere in Cheshire—those marvellous, mysterious water bodies in North-West England. All those that I have mentioned are affected by effluent from sewage treatment works.
As the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, noted, and as the committee in its report on page 137 notes, it is a serious failing of the directive that the size limit set for sewage works where phosphate stripping should be installed would not protect those waters. English Nature has estimated that none of those inland SSSI waters on its list of 112 is affected by sewage works serving more than 10,000 people or 10,000 population equivalent. The potential benefit of this directive for nature conservation is therefore removed. Fortunately, action has already been taken. For instance, Anglian Water and North-West Water are operating phosphate stripping at relevant works that affect the Broads, Esthwaite Water and Windermere. But the situation needs to be watched very carefully indeed.
Where does the phosphate come from? At least 50 per cent. of the phosphate content of sewage effluent comes from human wastes. It is ultimately the output from what we eat. It cannot reasonably be reduced. But a large residual proportion comes from detergents which contain phosphate. There has been and will continue to be much concern about that input. In other countries in areas of sensitive waters such as the North American Great Lakes Basin phosphatic detergents are not used. In the European Community
1436
much research has been conducted especially in Germany. There are obviously fears about adverse impacts of substitutes for phosphates, but I believe that all options must be evaluated. I hope that the Minister will be able to state the Government's position on the possibility of reduction of phosphate loading to the waste water stream by alternative detergent formulations.
Meanwhile, for the protection of our sensitive lake, river and estuary SSSIs we shall depend upon the statutory water quality objectives that are to be set by the Government shortly. I very much look forward to the careful matching of the water quality objectives with SSSI management needs. Where eutrophication has already damaged the aquatic ecosystem, there should also be an accompanying commitment to the restoration of those important natural waters.
The second topic about which I wish to speak briefly is the effect of this directive in bringing about a requirement to treat sewage discharges from works that are serving more than 2,000 population equivalent to minimum standards, in particular, of biochemical oxygen demand and suspended solids, unless they are discharging, as we have heard already, to defined "less sensitive" areas. With some latitude which will be based on the designation of these less sensitive areas, as the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, emphasised, implementation of this directive will inevitably increase the quantity of sewage sludge that is required to be disposed of. That increase will arise from, first, the requirement to provide treatment where it does not exist at present, and, secondly, the requirement to improve existing treatment.
Estimates provided to me by Anglian Water match those given to the committee. If I take the committee's figure for the current annual arising of 1.2 million tonnes of dry matter of sewage sludge, some 25 to 30 per cent. will be added; that is, an additional 300,000 to 400,000 tonnes per annum. I have not had the opportunity to apply to anyone to check my mathematics but if I am right, and if the sewage sludge at its normal concentration is approximately 95 to 97 per cent. liquid, about 30 million cubic metres of sludge must be dealt with per annum. The crux of the current anxiety has already been brought to our attention by the noble Lord, Lord Bridges. It is that there is no national strategy for the disposal of this amount of sewage sludge.
By comparison with resources devoted to feeding the nation, the level of cogitation, planning and policy formulation devoted to the inevitable consequences of this food intake is almost derisory. I venture to say that we should be seriously worried about the lack of an integrated national policy on sewage sludge disposal and even more worried about the lack of an integrated EC policy.
A variety of future scenarios exists once the directive is implemented. There is no doubt that marine disposal will end. As was emphasised by the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, for some sewage undertakers an important outlet has been cut off. What are the alternatives? I shall deal first with landfill. During a recent visit to Germany I was intrigued to find that some municipal waste disposal

1437
sites take between 25 and 35 per cent. of sewage sludge. But the bulk use of landfill for such a purpose is extravagant when we are concerned with an increasingly scarce and expensive resource represented by landfill void.
There may be other non-agricultural uses; for instance, land reclamation has been mentioned and forestry uses may be available. We may look forward to sewage sludge used as a composting agent with other organic wastes such as straw or sawdust. However, the main options open in the future are, first, increased agricultural use and, secondly, incineration. Agricultural use is a re-use in terms of Article 14 of the directive and therefore is favoured. It has its problems, however; there are restrictions on the timing and the rate of disposal for land and inevitable local anxiety about nuisance, traffic, smells and hygiene. I venture to suggest that consultation with almost any rural parish council will produce a loud, "No", if it is offered sewage sludge for its fields.
On the other hand, there is valid anxiety about long-term uncertainty in respect of accumulations of non-degradable contaminants, in particular the heavy metals mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Nugent. There must also be considered the new restrictions in respect of nitrate sensitive zones. However, there are many favourable features. The use of sewage sludge on land reduces the need for artificial fertilizer, the manufacture of which has high energy demands. To that extent it reduces the overall energy demand of the nation. Secondly, it is good for soil structure and for sustainability in ecological terms of the agricultural environment.
In general, incinerators are unpopular wherever they are placed. The incineration process is expensive and requires dewatering to some extent. For instance, in the Severn-Trent area I visited an elaborate sewage sludge press which produces an almost solid although still wet cake which burns of its own accord. Therefore, the process is not necessarily wasteful of energy In terms of additional fuel, although some boost may be needed for start up. However, incineration contributes to aerial pollution, as the noble Lord, Lord Nugent, reminded the House. Furthermore, carbon dioxide is directly released into the atmosphere with no beneficial intermediate use.
The future agenda for Sub-Committee F would appear likely to include the European Community proposed directives on landfill and incineration. No doubt sewage sludge will fall into both categories. At present sewage sludge when incinerated is classified as a hazardous waste which creates a wrong impression. If sewage sludge is to be incinerated for operational reasons it should be treated as a matter of simple disposal. Any available energy that exists should be recovered. There is no need to classify sewage sludge as a hazardous waste; that merely creates a complication.
Above all, given the European Community interest and these future directives hovering on the horizon, I urge the Minister to take the lead during the forthcoming presidency to create a co-ordinated
1438
European Community policy for the management of what may be a distasteful matter but which nonetheless is an inevitable waste.
4.6 p.m.
Lord Moran: My Lords, during the past two days I have observed worried frowns on the faces of some of my colleagues on the Environmental Sub-Committee. I judged them to be wrestling with the problem of how to make a stimulating speech on sewage and sludge to your Lordships.
When I joined your Lordships' House I little thought that I should be plunged so soon into the problem of sewage. When I introduced a debate on peat I tried to persuade some of my sceptical gardening friends that sewage sludge mixed with straw might in certain circumstances be a useful alternative. I then found myself as a member of Sub-Committee F, visiting Norfolk and seeing the problems of activated sludge and long-sea outfalls. The study was surprisingly interesting and I have no doubt about the enormous importance of the subject. I am glad that I took part in the study and I express warm thanks to my noble friend Lord Nathan, the chairman, to our specialist adviser Mr. Morlais Owens and to our clerk Mr. Ollard. To those three should go the credit for the excellence of the report. I am sorry that my time as a member has expired and that I must leave the sub-committee on which I have enjoyed being a member under the chairmanship of my noble friend Lord Nathan and his predecessor the noble Earl, Lord Cranbrook.
I share the view expressed by my noble friend Lord Bridges about the unfortunate timing of the report in relation to the adoption of the directive. It was adopted in March whereas our report was not available until June. The point made by my noble friend Lord Bridges is important. I hope that the Select Committee on the European Communities may be able to work with the Government and the Commission to try to ensure that when such a major study is undertaken the results are available to the Government, to the Commission and to other member states before final decisions are taken. I am sure that our recommendations were right, for example, about the use of environmental quality objectives rather than limit values; about sensitive areas mentioned in paragraphs 140 and 141; and about the need to include all discharges, not only large ones, as mentioned in paragraph 45. All those recommendations should have been taken into account before the directive went to press.
I agree with almost everything contained in the report. There is no doubt that there is a public demand in this country and increasingly throughout Europe as a whole for cleaner rivers, beaches, estuaries and coastal waters. There is a new realisation of the importance of the problem of eutrophication because people have observed in the third dry summer which we have had in succession problems of blanket weed and algal blooms in rivers as well as lakes. We now know too about the quite serious problem of blue green algae, mostly in still waters.

1439
We have tended to neglect the whole problem in the past. Tables three and four on page 10 of the report show that a quarter of discharges to estuaries and 42 per cent. of coastal discharges at present receive no treatment at all in this country. However, as your Lordships know, we are undertaking a substantial programme to remedy past neglect and in the next 10 years, quite apart from this directive, we shall be spending three times the past level of annual expenditure to improve water quality. That was certainly badly needed.
I regret only that some of the plcs are not devoting themselves exclusively to that problem. In Wales, where I live, Welsh Water, which is a private monopoly, has invested in electricity companies, hotels and stretches of fishing. It would be more sensible, in my judgment, for it to concentrate on the enormous problems covered in our report.
I have one or two specific points to raise on the report. I have given the noble Baroness notice of those points which concern the Government but I am afraid that it was rather short notice.
I believe that the directive demonstrates once again the absence of an integrated approach to pollution in the Community. That applies not only to this directive but to many others. It seems to me to be very important that this issue, which is being addressed by our Government, should be addressed also by the Community.
Secondly, we should apply more stringent standards than those defined in the directive where we judge it to be necessary to protect the environment. I hope that there will be an assurance from the Minister today that we shall do so.
Thirdly, as other noble Lords have said, the costs of the implementation of the directive will be enormous and in some instances may result in little real environmental improvement. I should like the Minister to give an assurance on behalf of the Government that that will not be allowed to detract from the level of expenditure at present targeted at real environmental problems.
The directive's effluent standards are not at present expressed in such a way as to safeguard the environment and provide a basis for enforcement. Again, I ask the Minister whether future consents will incorporate both the consent conditions under the directive and standards which are suitable for enforcement and regulatory purposes.
We have already spoken to some extent about the question of sensitive areas. That is clearly of great importance. I should like to ask the Minister whether future United Kingdom policy will seek to avoid producing new sensitive areas wherever possible. Clearly that has implications, for example, for barrage developments, some of which have already been considered in your Lordships' House.
There is one point on the directive on which I seek clarification. Annex II, paragraph A(a) (i), appears to allow for no nutrient removal where,
"it can be demonstrated that the removal will have no effect on the level of eutrophication".
1440
I ask the Minister whether that is the correct interpretation of that phrase.
We have spoken already about stormwaters. In our report at paragraph 163 we suggested that there should be another directive on that. However, if so, it would be important that the Commission should not again go down the road of fixed emission standards regardless of the real need of receiving waters, as the noble Lord, Lord Nugent, so eloquently explained to us.
The whole question of the authorisation of trade discharges is of the first importance. I hope that the National Rivers Authority can be given an increased role in reviewing and agreeing trade effluent consents issued by sewage undertakers. I am told that the present arrangements are not satisfactory.
Paragraphs 179 to 181 of the report set out the need for the proper phasing of reviews of investment programmes. There is, I think, a need for the formal review period for statutory quality objectives to be phased in with all the other reviews in order to arrive at a single co-ordinated investment programme. I ask the Minister whether that will be done.
I believe that some of your Lordships may have received, as I have, a letter from the Association of Consulting Engineers which gave evidence to the committee. One point made in that letter seems to me very important. It states:
"It should be an objective of Government policy that there be British industrial representatives on the regulatory committee set up to advise the Commission on waste water treatment".
That is a very important point because there is a real need for technical expertise on the Committee of Adaptation. We have a great deal of expertise in this country and it is important that that should be properly deployed by the Commission. It is also important on committees which draft directives; for example, I believe that the UK member of the committee which drafted this directive had no experience of sewage treatment works. The Government should address that matter.
Having said that, although it came rather late I believe that this is a useful report. I hope that it will be possible to adapt the directive in future to take account of what we said.
4.19 p.m.
Lord Norrie: My Lords, as a member of the committee I too am pleased to have this opportunity to say a few words in support of some of our recommendations. As the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, said, understandably we tend to view sewage as an unattractive problem of disposal—a process in which we are all inextricably involved but about which we would rather not talk. Once the committee started an in-depth investigation it soon became apparent that sewage could be seen as a potential resource rather than a waste. If we start from that premise I believe we will look more favourably at a number of new, imaginative techniques and processes for dealing with sewage in a more environmentally acceptable way.
This new directive should not be seen as presenting just more costs but as presenting opportunities—opportunities which may force us to look at making

1441
more efficient use of this potential resource in two main ways. The first is that new treatment requirements for many coastal sewage effluent discharges may mean that for the first time some of that effluent could be effectively re-used and recycled. For in stance, it can be piped upstream for re-abstraction again or perhaps with additional treatment be used for artificially recharging under-ground aquifers.
In Kent many of the major centres of population are sited on the coast—towns such as Margate, Ramsgate, Dover and Folkestone. Their sewage effluent goes straight out to sea. Compare that with the many towns and villages along the length of the River Thames, where one town discharges into the river, only for that effluent to be re-abstracted and re-used further downstream. The result is that only about 18 per cent. of the effective rainfall in the Southern Water Company region (which includes much of Kent) is licensed for abstraction, whereas in the Thames region about 55 per cent. of effective rainfall is licensed. That is enabled by a high degree of recycling along its entire length. Now that many coastal discharges will have to be treated as a result of the directive we should see this opportunity for recycling effluent as one way in which we can help to meet the, ever-rising demand for water and in the process make much better use of our existing water resources. It would help also to maintain rivers and water courses, many of which increasingly suffer from low flows or over-abstraction. Many are rapidly being impoverished by the loss of wildlife habitats and landscape features.
That is the first opportunity. The second relates to sewage sludge. Incinerating sewage sludge seems to me to be wasting a product which could often be used more usefully. Given that incineration costs are high, and the fact that it produces toxic ash for landfill disposal, its use, in my view, should be limited and more effort should be put into looking at environmentally beneficial solutions. That was a point made forcibly by my noble friend Lord Nugent.
As we recommended in our committee report, we believe that substantial resources should be devoted to developing novel techniques for sewage sludge recycling. The problem often raised is that of heavy metal contamination. Again that was mentioned by my noble friends Lord Nugent and Lord Cranbrook. That problem, however, should not be an excuse for not going forward with environmentally sound solutions; it is an obstacle which must be overcome if we are not to waste a valuable resource. That may involve changes in the ways in which industrial effluents enter the sewerage system if sludge disposal to agricultural and horticultural uses is not to be prevented.
In view of the recent trend of hot summers in this country, maybe we should give serious consideration to the re-use of the liquid effluent stream for irrigation purposes. In the US it is common practice. Often two pipelines are laid in parallel—one for drinking water, the other for non-drinking water.
As a committee we were impressed by some of the new techniques coming forward, as mentioned by the
1442
noble Lord, Lord McNair. Five water companies—Anglian, Severn Trent, South West, Southern and Thames—have chosen the Simon-N-Viro process for dealing with sewage. Others such as Wessex have chosen a sludge-drying and pelletisation process. By producing effective peat alternatives or soil conditioners it kills two birds with one stone by dealing with sludge and by helping to prevent the continued destruction of peatlands. That is clearly a process favoured by the noble Lord, Lord Moran. All those processes appear to be highly cost-effective. Since the directive rules out sea dumping of sewage sludge, and because additional new treatment works will produce yet more sludge, there seems to be enormous scope for utilising them.
The US has already set the scene. There are over 20 N-Viro plants in operation there. But it is also true to say that a number of states in the US have classified N-Viro soil as a non-sludge product, allowing its wider application to the land. That re-classification is made possible by the acceptance of a standard leachate test, similar to the US Environmental Protection Agency's toxicity test, which sets limits for heavy metal concentration in leachates. As an example, it is interesting to note that in order to prevent soil erosion a strengthened form of N-Viro soil has been used on the steep banks of the River Delaware. This demonstrates the American confidence in the product and that the fear of heavy metal contamination in this drinking water river can be eliminated. The solution in the UK, therefore, must be to prevent heavy metal contamination of sewage sludge in the first place or to prevent heavy metals in sludge from becoming soluble. Though the current trials have not yet been completed, it appears that the Simon N-Viro process virtually achieves that objective.
Thus incineration is not the only solution to sludge disposal. There are already a number of innovations available that allow us to benefit from the re-use of this valuable resource. The US experience has shown that over the past five years numerous applications in agriculture, landfill cover and land reclamation have been used. However, its wider application would be greatly assisted in EC legislation by the adoption of a standard leachate test and I believe that that should remain a high priority on the political agenda.
4.26 p.m.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I share the admiration and gratitude widely expressed for the work of the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, and his colleagues on the committee. It is clearly an extremely valuable report, and no less valuable because it took me some time to understand from the title what it was about. I am notorious, I am told, among those who treat the proceedings of this House with some levity for having first used the phrase "dog shit" in the House. Mutatis mutandis, that is what the report is about. When I realised that it was not about municipal waste water treatment it made a good deal more sense to me. I was then able to read it with more understanding and gratitude.

1443
I have no doubt about the locus of the European Commission in the matter. To say that is not in any sense to suggest, as did the noble Lord, Lord Nugent, that we are accusing Britain of being the "dirty man" of Europe. It is valuable for the European Community to set standards for environmental quality in this as in many other matters. That does not mean that Britain is necessarily worse; it means that many parts of Europe have defective environmental quality standards in many respects and it requires a concerted effort on the part of the European Community to put those matters right, as those of us who travel in Europe know to our cost and from our experience.
I am unnerved by the revelation of the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, that the directive is already in force, and indeed was already in force before the committee's report was published. That raises questions in regard to the timescale allowed to the European Communities Committee for the matters it chooses to consider, and perhaps that is something the committee may wish to look at further. I suggest that it also raises questions for the usual channels; that the debate should have taken place in May when the committee's report was first published, and not now, in October. In those two respects it appears to be a case of locking the stable door after the horse has bolted.
I am sure that the fundamental thrust of the committee's report is correct. The committee is saying that the true test of environmental quality should not be the process of achieving environmental quality but the product, the result. In my own trade of market research I have carried on a long and unavailing battle with the powers-that-be regarding the quality of interviewing work. The Market Research Society, of which I had the honour to be chairman many years ago, believes that you can guarantee the quality of interviewing work in surveys by ensuring that you have good training; that you follow up a certain proportion of the interviews carried out and that interviewers are accompanied on their training sessions and so forth. In other words, it is looking at the process.
What I am concerned about, and what I believe all of us should also be concerned about, is the product and the quality of the work completed. In the directive the EC does not seem to be paying attention to that. I am certainly not qualified to make any judgment about the very profound scientific matters referred to in the report. As a layman, it seems to me that the case has been made out for the environmental quality objective, as opposed to the uniform limit which is proposed by the EC in its directive. I feel sure that the years to come will show that there has to be continuing improvement and variation in the uniform limits set down if the directive is going to have the desired effect of improving environmental quality.
A number of factors affect the environmental quality of ordinary rivers in this country. Some of them will be the responsibilities of local authorities; some will be the responsibilities of the privatised sewage undertakings and some of the industrial undertakings in the private sector. Some will be the responsibilities of agriculture. We are concerned to get
1444
clean rivers. In seeking that objective we should be looking at the reasons why we do not have them. We should assign the blame and decide what has to be done in order to reach a predetermined standard of cleanliness. Then one has to make sure that when a river is not clean the various people responsible pay to put it right. That is the right way, rather than to set uniform limits of effluent from all the different sources which may or may not ultimately add up to a clean river. That is why I believe that it is clean rivers rather than the process which should be the concern.
But that does not solve the problem raised by the classic phrase "the polluter pays". In that sense we are all polluters. It is no good for some of the more romantic environmentalists to believe that, by asserting the principle that the polluter pays, somehow the cost of it will go away. If the polluter is each and every one of us, as it is for much of the subject matter of the report, then we shall all have to pay for it. That will be done either through the cost of our water, of the sewerage provision or in the cost of the products that we buy from the businesses which are engaged in polluting activities. There is no way around that. We have to consider the additional cost besides the £28 billion of environmental improvement which is already imposed on the water companies as a result of the Water Act 1989.
I believe that Ian Byatt, the Director General of the Office of Water Services, put the position very clearly in his evidence to the committee. He said, mildly, that we do not want too many Concordes around. We have to consider to what extent we are prepared to pay in the reduction of the rest of our quality of life and standard of living in order to achieve what are perhaps ideal effluent conditions. I agree with what noble Lords have already said; namely, that in considering these matters the EC should look at all the demands that it is making in the light of the ability of ordinary people to pay for the improvements which it declares necessary.
I was puzzled by the word "municipal" in the title of the report. In this country the water companies are no longer municipal. They ceased to be municipal in 1974, but at least they were still in the public sector. However, in the past two years they have become very firmly in the private sector. The onus is strongly on the regulatory bodies for the water and sewerage industries. It is a matter of considerable regret that the objection that we raised two or more years ago on the fragmented nature of the environmental protection as proposed by the Government was not recognised at the time. We now have a very useful Green Paper produced by the Department of the Environment. The Government propose a version of what we proposed some years ago; in other words, the creation of an over-arching environmental protection agency, in whatever form it might finally take. It will be able to take responsibility for the implementation of this and other directives in EC legislation in this country.
However, it must be a matter of regret that the Government have taken so long to come round to our point of view. Although the consultation process is still going on, and should continue to the end of January 1992, there is no prospect of legislation to

1445
implement what could easily have been accepted when we were considering the Environmental Protection Bill and the Water Bill some years ago.
As always, it is the public policy issues rather than the scientific ones which concern me. I believe that the former have not been resolved by the way in which this matter has been dealt with. It has not been helpful to have the committee reporting after the decisions had already been taken. I should very much like to hear from the Minister what the Government propose to ensure that the very sensible recommendations of the committee are brought to the attention of the EC in an effective way.
4.37 p.m.
The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (Baroness Blatch): My Lords, this has been deemed an unmentionable subject. However, I have to agree with all noble Lords who have spoken, not simply about how important it is but how interesting and challenging is the work of seeking solutions to what was described by my noble friend Lord Cranbrook as inevitable waste.
I wish to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, and his colleagues on an excellent report. I wish also to pay tribute to the quality of the speeches. Your Lordships invariably bring an expertise and insight to discussion of environmental issues which is without parallel. Today has been no exception. As your Lordships will be aware, the directive, has changed its name to the urban waste water treatment directive. I have no intention of converting that into plainer English, as used by the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh. The directive was agreed by environment Ministers on 18th March before your Lordships' report was published.
I appreciate that the task of noble Lords was made difficult by the continuing nature of the negotiations during the scrutiny process. Nevertheless many points made by witnesses were of use to us in the negotiations in Brussels, and, of course, having agreed a text does not mean the job has finished. The directive leaves a number of issues to member states and here, in particular, the report will be invaluable.
I believe that it would be useful to look at the context within which this directive is set. Back in 1988 the EC took the unusual step of calling together environment Ministers in Frankfurt to seek their views on the priorities for water protection measures for the 1990s. Not surprisingly, waste water treatment was at the top of the list. I say "not surprisingly" because, as we all know, some of Europe's major towns and cities are without any form of sewage treatment. Brussels, the so called capital of Europe, is a case in point.
Reducing nutrient inputs was also regarded as a priority by the Ministers. This led to the drafting of the nitrate directive which was debated by this House and was agreed by the Environment Council last June. The Frankfurt meeting also identified the need to bring a bout overall improvements in the ecological quality of the EC waters. A proposal is expected from the Commission shortly. My purpose in explaining all
1446
this is to show that there is a continuity running through the latest batch of EC proposals for protecting the aquatic environment.
This point is clearly demonstrated if we look at the criteria for identifying "sensitive areas" in the urban waste water directive and the criteria for designating "vulnerable zones" in the nitrate directive. Although the wording is slightly different the effect is the same. That is to say, if you have to treat the relevant sewage discharges in a particular area to remove nitrate under the urban waste water directive, in most circumstances it will also be necessary to reduce nitrates of agricultural origin under the nitrate directive; and of course the reverse applies. This conformity of approach is very much welcomed as it would be inadequate and inequitable to deal with individual polluting sources in isolation.
We must not forget the background at home. In England and Wales privatisation of the water industry has released enormous resources: £28 billion is being ploughed into improving standards during the 1990s. More than £5.3 billion will be going on sewage treatment alone. Notwithstanding this enormous injection of capital we have also established one of the toughest environmental watchdogs anywhere in Europe. Armed with the Water Act and the Environmental Protection Act our regulators are able to ensure that the water environment is given the level of protection that the public clearly desire. In Scotland also the Control of Pollution Act has been strengthened to provide the same degree of protection for the water environment.
I turn now to some of the more specific issues raised in your Lordships' report and in the debate. There has been considerable discussion over the approach in the directive to controlling sewage discharges which many regard as a uniform emissions approach. In my view the directive has managed to strike the right balance, retaining a degree of flexibility while requiring a minimum level of provision of treatment. Before the first Commission proposal was published the UK Government had already reviewed their policy in this area and decided that all significant sewage discharges to coastal and other waters should be treated. The decision received considerable acclaim. Once it is accepted as the first building block, I believe that many of the directive's requirements follow as a natural consequence.
Improvement of sewage treatment is not a linear process; rather it is incremental, involving a series of step-up improvements as one adds on the equipment necessary to go from primary through secondary to tertiary treatment. I therefore feel that the approach of the directive which allows for the application of the appropriate step or level of treatment according to the sensitivity of the receiving waters is a sensible one.
The noble Lord, Lord Nathan, has questioned whether we could incorporate an option to apply environmental quality objectives rather than limit values. In a very real sense that option already exists. The directive sets minimum standards for treatment works which are not dissimilar to the standards proposed by our Royal Commission in 1912. But where our regulatory bodies consider that these

1447
standards are insufficient to safeguard the environment they will impose higher standards based on the requirements to meet water quality objectives. The directive thus incorporates both approaches.
There has been some criticism of the way the various limits in the directive have been expressed. We share some of those concerns, particularly about limits expressed as percentage removal. The NRA has just completed a review of the approach adopted in England and Wales. This was subject to wide consultation. On the basis of the review a system of consent setting will be established which will satisfy the requirements of the directive and the needs of our regulators. The directive requires that consents should be set to ensure that the discharge quality does not in normal circumstances pass an absolute threshold. The NRA has recently announced in response to the consultation exercise that it intends to introduce such absolute limits in all sewage consents.
One area where the directive's approach is somewhat new is in the requirement to identify sensitive areas. We are required to examine all the receiving waters for sewage discharges and ascertain whether the waters are suffering from eutrophication or have nitrate levels which interfere with their use as drinking water supplies. A parallel exercise is required by the nitrate directive. So we will be taking both exercises together.
As your Lordships' report states, the definition of eutrophication in the directive is somewhat subjective. In order to carry out the task, we have asked the regulatory authorities to advise us on the symptoms associated with the eutrophication process and to identify those areas which, on the basis of an appraisal of the symptoms, they consider to be eutrophic or close to becoming eutrophic. The identification of eutrophic waters has to be completed in time to enable the sewerage undertakers to draw up investment programmes by the end of 1993. But this is not a one-off classification. Identification of eutrophic waters will be a continuing exercise with full reviews at least every four years. The noble Lord, Lord Moran, expressed concern about this matter. We hope that preventive measures and the nitrate directive mean that it will prove unnecessary in the longer term to designate new sensitive areas.
I welcome the committee's endorsement of the requirement to install phosphate removal equipment at sewage works discharging into eutrophic freshwaters. There is of course need for an integrated strategy and it will be for the regulators to decide whether further action is required such as the dredging out of phosphate-rich sediments. There has been some concern that the directive would require phosphate removal plants to be installed with little or no effect on the eutrophication problem. I am satisfied that the provisions of the directive give us some flexibility in this area and would not force us into such an absurd situation.
On less sensitive areas, the Government have again asked the regulators to draw up criteria for their identification. We are only at the initial stages in this area but I can reassure the House that the
1448
identification of sensitive and less sensitive areas will be based on the needs of the environment and will take account of the best scientific and technical information available.
There has been some concern expressed that small works will slip through the control net or will be subject to a less stringent form of treatment. The noble Lord, Lord McNair, was concerned about how many treatment works fall below the level at which treatment work is required. I do not have the figures to hand. They are, however, included in a report of a survey of sewage treatment works undertaken by consultants in environmental sciences. A copy of the report is available in the Library.
The directive makes a distinction between large and smaller works. The emphasis is on controlling those discharges which are likely to be more polluting. The directive specifies precise standards for all discharges to freshwaters from populations of 2,000 or more, and for discharges to coastal waters from populations of 10,000 or more. The directive rightly requires the larger, more polluting discharges to be tackled first. For discharges from smaller communities, no specific form of treatment is prescribed. Rather, it is for member state to identify the appropriate form of treatment within the context of the overall objective of the directive, which is to protect the environment from the adverse effects of waste water discharges. I believe that this is the right approach and will provide the necessary flexibility for dealing with small or remote communities in the very wide range of conditions to be found across the Community. I believe also that we in the UK are extremely well placed to fulfil this requirement. Our control framework, underpinned by water quality objectives, will ensure that any discharge, no matter how small, is adequately controlled and our waters fully protected.
The directive requires certain controls over discharges to sewer. We in the UK have had such controls for a long time. The control over such discharges is a shared responsibility. For England and Wales, for discharges of the really hazardous chemicals—the prescribed substances—control is invested in Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Pollution. It is able to assess the effects of releases of prescribed substances, including those released as a consequence of discharge to sewer, to the environment as a whole. It is able to impose a system of control which either prevents the release of such substances or minimises their release so as to render them harmless. In Scotland, parallel controls over prescribed processes will be introduced next April. In Northern Ireland discharges to sewer are controlled by the Department of the Environment (Northern Ireland) under the Water and Sewerage Services (Northern Ireland) Order 1973.
For the other substances discharged to sewer, the sewerage undertakers have control. Generally the discharger pays the undertaker to accept his effluent for treatment as an alternative to providing treatment at the factory site.
It is in the interest of the sewerage undertaker to ensure these are adequately controlled. In addition to these controls the NRA and river purification boards

1449
in Scotland ensure that the quality of the discharge from the sewage works meets the prescribed limits. Similar arrangements are to be introduced in Northern Ireland, where a soon to be formed government company will be subject to the consent provisions of the Water Act (Northern Ireland) 1972. A works which received an excess of industrial discharge or unsuitable effluent would not be able to meet these limits. I therefore feel that controls over industrial discharges to sewers are adequate to protect the environment.
But, as your Lordships are aware, we have recently sought views on the setting up of an environment agency for England and Wales which will improve further the co-ordination between HMIP and the NRA. The Secretary of State for Scotland has announced similar proposals and the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland will be considering whether it is necessary to propose any change in the present institutional arrangements for the care of the environment in the Province.
A number of comments have been made concerning the treatment of sewage sludge. The directive does not specifically deal with the matter, but I recognise that it has significant implications for sludge treatment facilities as it will result in a considerable expansion of the amount of sludge produced and it bans sea disposal of sludge. This opens up a major new market opportunity for waste treatment suppliers. I am pleased to report that many businesses are showing interest in this market and bringing forward new ideas. Support for such developments is available through government schemes such as ETIS, and European schemes such as NORSPA.
My noble friend Lord Cranbrook referred specifically to hazardous sewage sludge. We are also anxious that clean sewage sludge could be classified as hazardous. The hazardous waste directive sets up a committee to define the term "hazardous". The committee will leave no stone unturned in working to ensure a sensible and workable definition and criteria for that definition. My noble friend Lord Cranbrook was also anxious about after-uses for sewage sludge. Again, it is government policy to encourage sewage sludge recycling wherever possible. We shall promote such a policy within Europe where this proves to be a low hazardous operation.
One encouraging development, mentioned by my noble friend Lord Norrie, is the N-Viro process developed by Simon Engineering. I have had the opportunity to see this for myself at the sewage treatment works at Horsham and I have to say that I came away extremely impressed. Officials in my department have also had extensive discussions with representatives of the firm. As noble Lords will know, the disposal of sewage sludge on agricultural land is controlled by the 1986 EC directive which sets limits on the concentrations of heavy metals. This is given effect in England and Wales through the Sludge (Use in Agriculture) Regulations 1989 and is enforced by Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Pollution. Simon Engineering has argued that this measure is inappropriate for sludge treated by its process, which it claims locks up heavy metals. Simon Engineering
1450
has told us that it is carrying out research to demonstrate this. We in turn have encouraged Simon Engineering in this work and have said that if the results demonstrate that its process does not have adverse environmental effects, then we are prepared to raise the matter with the European Commission with a view to amending the directive. We are still awaiting the results of that work. As to the question of a leachate test, we have also informed Simon Engineering of the work being carried out in the context of the draft EC directive on landfill which will set a European-wide leachate test.
Implementation of this directive is a long term task with compliance dates stretching out into the next century. That does not mean we can put our feet up and wait for something to happen. Member states have to establish implementation programmes by the end of 1993. These will be updated every two years and regular reports will be published on the progress achieved. The public will no doubt be watching with keen interest the headway being made in achieving the directive's deadlines. The building of any new sewage works will, of course, be subject to the normal planning controls. I take on board the warnings made by my noble friend Lord Cranbrook. It is vital that the planning applications are dealt with as speedily as possible. In considering the applications local authorities and potential objectors need to weigh up the general benefit that will ensue from the building of a sewage works in a particular location versus the local disturbance that will be caused in and around the site. I hope that all involved will carry out their tasks responsibly and that there will be no unnecessary delays to the programme.
As I mentioned earlier there are still a number of important issues to be resolved at member state level. Identification of sensitive areas is one such task; monitoring requirements is another. To help us develop sensible strategies on these problems we have set up an implementation group made up of representatives of the regulators, the water companies and their equivalents in Scotland and Northern Ireland and other interested parties such as the Office of Water Services. The report from your Lordships will be an essential guide to this group. In response to my noble friend Lord Cranbrook, we have submitted the list of areas from English Nature to our implementation group for consideration for designation as sensitive areas.
It is also important that the directive be kept under review within the Community. On this the urban waste water directive has provisions for setting up a regulatory committee. This will allow for updating some of the technical aspects of the directive so as to reflect progress in these areas. It will provide a forum for discussion with the Commission and the other member states of some of the problems encountered with implementation. Again, this is to be welcomed as it gets us away from the sterile confrontation with the Commission which has marred and even hindered implementation of directives in the past. I am pleased to inform the House that the first meeting of that regulatory committee has already taken place. At that meeting initial discussions took place as to how the

1451
Commission could ensure that all member states would be implementing the directive. We shall be pressing in this committee to ensure that all member states do implement the directive.
Implementation will of course cost a great deal of money. The estimate we provided to the committee was of the order of £2.2 billion over and above the sums already included in investment programmes for improving sewage treatment works and bathing waters. Our estimate was only one of several which were spread over a wide range. Precise estimates cannot be made until the work on identification of sensitive and less sensitive areas and the standards to be applied has been completed. Only then will we know the type of treatment which is required for individual areas.
One thing over which there is no doubt is who will foot the bill, as was addressed quite rightly by the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh. In this case we are all the polluter and we will have to pay through higher charges for sewerage services. Of course various European structural funds are available for particular areas and we hope the sewerage undertakers will, where appropriate, be making full use of the loan facilities provided by the European Bank.
There will be other calls on sewerage undertakers' resources, as the noble Lord, Lord Moran, has pointed out. The Secretary of State will be setting water quality objectives after the necessary extensive consultation. In setting those objectives he will take into account the investment requirements and timetable and the obligations facing the dischargers from this and other directives.
Even though they will have to rise substantially, water charges in the United Kingdom—and it needs to be noted—are and will remain among the lowest in Europe. The Director General of Water Services will ensure that any increase in charges above those already provided for is limited only to that which is necessary to enable the companies to meet their commitments.
The noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, raised a query with my noble friend Lord Astor about whether the report had been placed before the Council of Ministers. The answer is that it has not been laid before the Council of Ministers.
I believe there is a growing realisation in the public's mind that environmental improvement does not come cheap. In the case of sewage treatment the UK starts from the first line of the grid. Nevertheless there is more to be done to bring our sewerage system up to the standards of the 21st century and beyond. The municipal waste water treatment directive provides us with the vehicle which will get us, and the rest of Europe, to this goal. The formulation and implementation of this directive will be regarded as an achievement worthy of the same praise that we currently give to the Victorian engineers who laid down the foundations of our sewerage system. I am sure that when our grandchildren look back they will thank us for taking that bold step forward. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, and his committee, for a valuable report and one which will help us on our way.
5 p.m.
Lord Nathan: My Lords, my first task must be—it is a great pleasure—to thank the Minister for a full and interesting reply. I should not dream of commenting upon the various matters to which she has referred. I would first like to study what she has said. It is not easy to take it all in as she is speaking. It is interesting to note that the Minister said, as we did in our report, that the introduction, as well as the uniform limits, of sensitive and less sensitive areas goes a long way towards the philosophy that we have established in this country of having environmental quality objectives. Of course the minimum standards are high. One has, as she so rightly says, to balance the cost against the environmental benefit. That is the problem with which we are confronted all the time.
One matter to which I shall pay particular attention when I read the Minister's remarks is whether the scientific basis upon which sensitive and less sensitive areas are designated will be in the public domain. It gives the public great confidence if they know the basis upon which such a decision is made. It does not involve an enormous amount of work because the scientific inquiry has already had to be made.
Monitoring is important. It is interesting to know about the establishment of the implementation group. Implementation is a perennial problem, especially perhaps in relation to EC legislation and, as your Lordships know, the sub-committee which I chair is presently studying the implementation and enforcement of EC environment legislation. It is a difficult subject. I shall be interested to read what the Minister has told us about monitoring and implementation and the new arrangements with the Commission in Brussels.
It does not fall to me to summarise or repeat the speeches that have been made but I should like to refer to one or two points that were mentioned, perhaps incidentally. The speech of the noble Lord, Lord Nugent, was of particular interest to all of us. He is, I suppose, the authority in your Lordships' House on the subject of water and so what he had to say carried great force, certainly with me. I was interested in his concern with regard to implementation and monitoring in this country and also—a point to which the Minister referred—monitoring in other member states where the matter may not be as well organised as here.
The noble Lord, Lord McNair, is, as he said, a new member of the sub-committee. He is obviously interested in and knowledgeable about recycling. That was a matter to which he paid attention. We were grateful to him for his contribution in that respect which was reflected in his speech. The experience of the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, was very helpful to us. He mentioned, among other things, the problem of storm waters. That topic troubled us a good deal. It is a matter that does not seem to be adequately dealt with in the directive as it stands. While amendment of the directive, which is now in force, is not easy, I should have thought that with a certain amount of good will the Committee of Adaptation might be mobilised to see whether that matter does not fall

1453
within the technical purview of its competence. It would be interesting to see whether appropriate provisions could be incorporated in the directive.
The noble Earl, Lord Cranbrook, was my predecessor as chairman of the committee, and he has been a member of the committee for many years. It was a shock and a sorrow to us to lose him due to his appointment while he was chairman. It was interesting to hear from him as an expert on phosphates the lists of sensitive areas which he and his organisation are in the process of defining. They will affect not just the effect of the directive but the cost of implementing it.
We are sorry to lose the noble Lord, Lord Moran. He ha s been a member of the committee for the maximum period permitted by your Lordships. I hope that be may return to us in due course. He has made a special contribution not just in relation to Wales but to water and the barrages to which he referred, about which many of us were previously rather ignorant. He referred—this is important and will become increasingly so—to the need to consider in the context of this directive, as in others, integrated pollution control. It is easy to split ourselves into defined sectors and not to look at the environment overall, which, as everyone recognises, is becoming increasingly important.
I must thank the noble Lord, Lord Norrie, for making a great contribution to the study. He again paid special attention to the recycling of sewage sludge and took a great part in investigating the process to which he referred. I was interested and gratified to find that the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, felt that the report had served a useful purpose. I hope that it has.
That brings me to a point which has been mentioned a number of times: the time at which we reported in relation to the finalisation of the directive. Evidence was first taken by us on 16th October last year. We knew at the time, or thought that we knew, that t Here was a likelihood of the directive being adopted by the Council of Ministers in December 1990; but, nevertheless, conscious of that fact, we decided that it would be worth our while, and I hope worth the while of your Lordships' House, to spend time on the investigation that we undertook. That was became we felt that there were so many great issues involved, not least the enormous expenditures, that it would be of benefit to the House to have the report, notwithstanding that it was presented after the directive had been adopted.
The directive was adopted some three months later than we had anticipated, and our studies had been more or less completed when that happened. The report was published a month or two later. It is a problem with which the Select Committee as a whole and our sub-committee in particular are confronted, and will be increasingly so, as the volume and speed of the adoption of legislation in Brussels increase. One of the difficulties is how any number of sub-committees, working however hard, can produce conscientious and substantial reports on all matters of importance within the time available. That matter will have a broader effect than just on our sub-committee.
I thank noble Lords for participating in the debate and for their kind remarks about the report. I hope that it will be a useful and reliable source of reference
1454
for some time for those concerned with these areas. Finally, once again I thank the noble Baroness for her reply and I look forward to studying it when I have the opportunity.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Immigration (Carriers' Liability Prescribed Sum) Order 1991 (SI 1991/ 1497)
5.10 p.m.
Lord Harris of Greenwich Lord Harris of Greenwich rose to move, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying that the order, laid before the House on 2nd July, be annulled.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I understand that the noble Lord the Leader of the House will reply to the debate in view of certain problems affecting the timetable for the Minister of State at the Home Office. We understand those problems and welcome the fact that the noble Lord will reply to the debate since he was among those responsible for putting the Act on to the statute book in 1987. I intend to quote—I may say with warm approval—much of what he said on that occasion.
The background to the debate can be summarised briefly. The Immigration (Carriers' Liability) Act was put on the statute book by the present Government in 1987 in an attempt to reduce the number of foreign nationals seeking asylum in the United Kingdom. The method chosen by the Government was to compel airlines and shipping companies to pay a civil charge of £1,000 for every passenger carried into the United Kingdom without valid documentation. The airlines and shipping companies were in reality conscripted to be agents of the immigration service, with penalties for any errors of judgment on the part of their staff. By this order, the Government have increased the penalty from £1,000 to £2,000 for every error committed by the airline or shipping company concerned—"error" as defined exclusively by agents of the state.
In my judgment, it is not the purpose of this debate to re-open the arguments as to whether or not the 1987 Act was necessary or whether or not we are faced with a serious problem of asylum seekers and others. I accept that there are, and may be in the future, significant problems associated with the attempted entry into this country and other members of the European Community of what the Government describe as "economic refugees".
My purpose this evening is not to concentrate on the issues to which I referred—important though they are—but to discuss the procedures which have been introduced by the Government as a result of this legislation, the effects on the airlines and other carriers, and to examine whether the assurances given by the Government at the time of the passage of the legislation have been honoured.
Perhaps I may deal first with the assurances that were given when the legislation was in the House of Commons. They were given by the noble Lord the

1455
Leader of the House. During the Committee stage of the Bill on 26th March 1987, at col. 628 of Commons Hansard he said:
"We cannot expect carriers to stop clever forgeries or skilful impersonations. The Bill does not expect them to do that. There is no liability if the falsity is not reasonably apparent … The Bill will be operated sensibly and reasonably".
Later, at col. 629, he said that the Bill,
"imposes burdens on all carriers—ferry companies and airlines. The standard is not demanding. Carriers are not expected to have the type of skills expected of immigration officers".
Later still he said:
"I emphasise that discretion will be used sensibly. It is open to my right hon. Friend not to ask for payment in respect of an infringement of the legislation".
The airlines and shipping companies say that there is no relationship whatever between those assurances given to the House of Commons and what has happened since the passage of the legislation.
Perhaps I may give examples of what has happened. First, there is the case of 65 Turkish nationals from Cairo with valid tickets to Lisbon via London on a direct airside transfer. Their documentation was checked by the staff of British Airways and was considered to be in order. When they arrived at London they did not go to the Lisbon flight; instead, they presented themselves to the immigration authorities and said, "We want political asylum".
It was then discovered that they had flushed their travel documents down the lavatory; therefore, there was nothing for the immigration authorities to see—none of the evidence which was given to the British Airways employees at Cairo. As a result of that episode British Airways was fined. That is what a civil charge is, a fine. It was fined no less than £65,000 for landing the Turkish nationals. Under this order it would have been fined £130,000. British Airways then made three appeals to the Home Office against the fines. All were rejected. Perhaps the noble Lord will tell us precisely how the staff of British Airways at Cairo could have known that those 65 ladies and gentlemen would flush their travel documents down the lavatory. It seems that one expects of the staff of British Airways remarkable powers of anticipation if that is expected of them.
Then there is the case of the baby from Iceland flown to Great Ormond Street Hospital for an emergency operation. The child did not have a passport because it was an emergency situation. It was admitted to Britain as a result of the intervention of a local chaplain. The airline was then fined £1,000; now it would be £2,000. Two appeals were required before it was agreed to waive the fine. Why should there have been a fine in the first place? It seems to me quite an extraordinary episode. No doubt the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, will be good enough to give an explanation for the necessity for two appeals.
There was also the case of an addition to a family; the name of the baby was quite properly put on the mother's passport but the mother did not return to the British consulate to get the visa endorsed. The result was a fine of £1,000 on the airline concerned.
Next there was the case of a foreign businessman coming to Britain. He had a perfectly valid visa in his possession; unhappily, it was a single-entry only visa. While he was here, his company asked him to go over to Frankfurt in order to conduct some of the company's business. He then returned to London. The airline was fined £1,000 as a result of that trip caused by him following the instructions given by his company.
I remind the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, of his own words:
" The Bill will be operated sensibly and reasonably".
How can he possibly reconcile that assurance with the examples I have given in regard to the airlines? I am sure that he will not be at all surprised to know that I have at least 20 or 30 other cases that I could describe were there to be time this afternoon.
I turn to the position with the shipping lines. This is one of the most bizarre examples. On 3rd September this year, 16 members of a Nepalese military band arrived at the Hoverspeed Dover hoverport. They were in uniform and therefore I should have thought not likely to be political refugees, or even economic refugees. They had been travelling in the UK and on the Continent playing, no doubt, Nepalese military music. All had entered the United Kingdom on a single-entry visa and had departed from Dover to Calais on 28th August 1991. They were returning in transit to Heathrow to return home on the following day; that is, 4th September. Hoverspeed was then fined £32,000—£2,000 for each of the 16 Nepalese musicians—even though all of them were allowed into the United Kingdom to continue their journey home to Nepal. The problem concerned the single-entry visa. I apologise for again reminding the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, of those admirable words he used in 1987 when he referred to this measure as "sensible and reasonable". How can anyone define such ludicrous behaviour in those terms?
I suspect that one of the problems associated with this matter, and one of the reasons we have got into this farcical situation, is because some of the admirable assurances which I am sure were given in good faith—I do not suggest the contrary for a moment—have not been passed on to those who are responsible for administering the immigration procedures. I have no doubt that advice was given to staff in the immigration department of the Home Office on how the Act was to be interpreted. However, I ask the noble Lord whether the words to which I have referred were included in that advice. I should be immensely grateful if the Minister could answer that question.
I have no doubt that the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, will tell us that the Government believe this measure and the 1987 Act are justified because of the backlog of a very substantial number of cases where people have applied for asylum in this country. I have indicated already that I accept there is a problem here—it would be absurd to indicate the contrary—but the implication of past statements by Ministers is that these people have been brought into the United Kingdom, both by the airlines and the cross-Channel ferries, with false papers. In fact, most of the people in the backlog of asylum cases entered

1457
this country with perfectly proper documents. Once they had entered this country legally on the basis of the documents they rightly possessed they then decided they did not wish to return to their own countries and made applications to remain in Britain.
I shall now turn to some of the other consequences of this order. There is the problem of those airlines which have extremely limited resources and which are based in countries which have very small quantities of foreign exchange. I wish to examine what happens when such airlines discover that they have inadvertently brought some asylum seekers into this country. In order to avoid paying a fine those airlines sometimes resort to desperate measures. In August of last year, for example, four Eritreans were held captive on a plane of Czechoslovak Airlines in London and were not allowed to present their case to the immigration authorities. I am informed by Amnesty International that the following month two young Eritreans were dragged back on to a Kenya Airways plane at Heathrow without any consideration having been given to their asylum claim. One of the Eritreans was a former political prisoner who had suffered severe torture while imprisoned. He gave the following account of the incident that occurred:
"We were towards the end of the queue of passengers leaving the 'plane. Some way into the tunnel we were stopped by a man. He looked at our passports briefly, then passed us to a man and a woman. They took us to a room with seating in it. The woman considered our passports. She began shouting at us, saying how could we come in this way without proper documents, now we would go back to Addis Ababa. When she said this we were so distressed that we fell on our knees weeping and pleading. The woman laughed at us—she thought that it was funny that we were on our hands and knees She said: 'We don't want Ethiopians, there are too many". They took my brother by his legs and dragged him along the ground. Then the woman took me by the wrists and pushed me on to the 'plane".
I recognise that that is one side of the story. However, I find it deeply distasteful that episodes of that kind—there are others—are taking place in this country without any consideration being given to the cases of those who are being treated in this unacceptable manner.
How precisely does the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, and his colleagues suggest that airline staff should handle the case of an asylum seeker who believes that he is in imminent risk of his life? Only a few weeks ago we witnessed an example of a democratically-elected government being overthrown by a murderous military regime. There have been, unhappily, plenty of other examples of that in the past. Let us imagine that a person from that democratically-elected government turned up at an airport the night after a coup and says that he is at risk of being murdered by the new military regime. Faced with that situation, what would airline staff do? I should be extremely grateful if the Minister could tell us what would occur. Would an airline employee say, "Yes, I shall let you on the plane to London", or would he say "Sorry. Perhaps you will be murdered tomorrow as you claim but I am not prepared to do anything"? I hope the Minister will tell us what advice the airlines are supposed to follow in such cases.
I believe I have said enough to demonstrate the serious problems that are associated with this order.
1458
No informed person would deny for a moment that there is a risk of substantial immigration of economic refugees into this country. However, the consequences of the passage of this order not only place unacceptable burdens on the airlines but also make it extremely difficult to allow genuine political refugees into this country. It imposes harsh and capricious penalties on airlines and other carriers—I have demonstrated that through the examples I have given—when, in the eyes of any reasonable person, there has not been any act of negligence on the part of the airline or shipping company concerned. If there have to be penalties there should be a final right of appeal on paper and not through an oral hearing. That right of appeal should be conducted by a legally qualified person who is independent of government and who would be entitled to review the papers of a case. It is wholly wrong for these matters to be determined exclusively by servants of the state.
I hope the Minister can give us an assurance on a further point. We are told that there will be a Bill on asylum seekers in the next Session of Parliament. We are in the extraordinary position of having had the entire contents of the Queen's Speech leaked to the press. Can the Minister give us an assurance that the Long Title of that Bill will enable us to discuss the 1987 Act again? It is entirely reasonable that after a period of five years there should be an opportunity for Ministers to explain to Parliament what has happened since 1987. If necessary, we should have the right to table amendments to that legislation.
This afternoon I have described the concern I feel at the situation surrounding asylum seekers and at the situation of the airlines and shipping companies that have been affected by the order. However, the issue goes far wider than that. This is a matter of whether the Executive, having given repeated assurances to Parliament that it will operate powers given to it sensibly and reasonably—I again repeat the words used by the noble Lord, Lord Waddington—is to be allowed simply to ignore those assurances. I believe that is the issue before the House this afternoon.
Moved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying that the order, laid before the House on 2nd July, be annulled.— (Lord Harris of Greenwich.)
5.30 p.m.
Lord King of Wartnaby: My Lords, it is with some trepidation that I rise after listening to the style, manner and eloquence with which the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, outlined the problem. However, I declare an interest and ask noble Lords to hear a little more. I am chairman of British Airways, which is the largest carrier of international passengers and more adversely affected by the Act than any other company.
Since the Act was introduced four years ago £6 million has been claimed by the immigration department in penalties from British Airways. Some £1½ million of that sum has been waived by exercise of the Home Office's administrative discretion. Does that mean that British Airways has been less diligent or co-operative than other carriers in complying with the

1459
Act? On the contrary, British Airways is alleged to have carried 4,500 passengers who arrived in this country without proper documents, but in the period in question British Airways carried 100 million passengers.
Does it mean that British Airways has brought into the country 4,500 illegal immigrants? Certainly not. Seventy per cent. of that number were passengers admitted as genuine visitors or permitted by the Home Office to stay. The majority were people who had passports without visas or visas that were out of date. Some were transit passengers who missed their connections. Others were persons who thought that they had a visa but had already made a trip which had exhausted the validity of the visa.
On any view, the absence of correct documents in such cases is a minor matter which causes no damage to the public interest; rather the contrary. Those passengers bring an economic benefit to the United Kingdom. Nevertheless, in each case the airline was fined £1,000. In every case British Airways was penalised just as heavily as if the passenger in question had deliberately attempted to enter the United Kingdom knowing that he would not be permitted to do so.
The Home Secretary has made and tabled a Statutory Instrument which, unless cancelled by either House, will double the charges from £1,000 to £2,000. That would mean that in the period I have described the airline would have incurred charges not of £4.5 million but of no less than £9 million, a sum equivalent to British Airways' profits for the first three months of this year.
Does that mean that the Government believe that British Airways has not co-operated in the application of the law? Not at all. The Home Office has acknowledged that British Airways has made great efforts to train its staff in the complexities of immigration requirements. I am sure that the Minister will confirm that. We have spent over £1 million on additional overseas airport staff, special training and communications to meet the requirements of the law.
The Government say that they are doubling the penalties under the Act because the number of infringements has increased sharply from 6,000 in 1989 to 12,000 in 1990. They accept that the rate of increase in ordinary offences per 1,000 passengers carried by British Airways has not increased significantly but say that they cannot treat British Airways exceptionally. All carriers must be treated alike. Why must all carriers be treated alike? Why should British Airways and other carriers which have made great efforts to comply with the Act be treated as though they had made no effort at all? Indeed, why should those carriers be charged anything at all in the vast majority of cases?
Refusing to adapt the penalty to the offence and refusing to distinguish between those who are co-operating with the Act and those who are not is not being even handed. It is being heavy handed, in a way which works against what the Home Office is trying to achieve.
1460
Countries such as Canada reward reasonable behaviour on the part of the carrier by waiving penalties. Why do the Government adamantly refuse to amend the legislation to permit a more flexible regime? Until such amendments are made the Government should require a more sympathetic exercise of administrative discretion by immigration officers. When this draconian law was passed assurances were given by Ministers in both Houses that the Act would be operated fairly and sensibly. I do not believe that the Government have honoured their undertakings.
This Act is an unprincipled and pernicious piece of legislation which is incompatible with our parliamentary traditions and civilised procedure. It creates an absolute liability. It imposes a penalty, now doubled, which Home Office Ministers make plain is intended to be a deterrent. Yet the liability is civil, not criminal. Reasonable behaviour, lawful excuse, good intent and the normal protections afforded by the criminal law are no defence. If a passenger has arrived without documents, the carrier is guilty and fined £2,000.
The legislation was introduced without any prior consultation with the industry. My company, alone, and in consultation with other airlines and with the Board of Airline Representatives in the United Kingdom, has made repeated representations for a more appropriate and reasonable regime. All the representations have been brushed aside. The force of some of our arguments has been conceded but the conclusion disregarded. When a government disregard reasonable argument and request they expose themselves to accusations of arrogance in the exercise of power. In the old days that used to be called tyranny. I urge the Home Secretary to consider the points which have been made in this debate.
I fully understand the growing seriousness of the problem of illegal immigration, especially of so-called economic immigrants. The carriers wish to help, but there are things they can do and things they cannot do. What airline staff can never be is immigration officers. Airline staff were trained to welcome customers and to serve them and encourage them to fly with their airlines. The immigration officer has the precisely opposite function of preventing people entering the country.
Airline check-in staff are being asked to make judgments about the intentions of passengers who have valid tickets to a destination beyond London and valid documents for that journey. It should be borne in mind that I am not talking about British check-in staff at Heathrow. I am talking about check-in staff at overseas airports who are not UK nationals and in many cases not employees of the airline in question. The check-in operator is expected to make judgments about whether a particular passenger will complete his journey or jump ship and whether he or she is likely to destroy documents and seek asylum. That is more than should be asked of our staff.
Check-in staff are supposed to ask themselves questions such as, "Does this transit passenger look like someone travelling to such and such a country on holiday?" "Does he look as if he can afford such a holiday?" "How much luggage is the passenger

1461
taking?" They are even supposed to ask questions about ethnic origin such as, "Does this Turkish passport holder look like a Kurd?" and "Does this Sri Lank an passport holder look like a Tamil?" Do not your Lordships think it wholly unreasonable of the Home Office to impose such requirements on airline staff?
If a businessman or woman from one of several designated countries travelling through London without a visa misses his or her connection because of air traffic delays and is obliged to spend the night at an airport hotel, is it not preposterous that the airline should be fined £2,000 for what the Home Office says is an illegal entry? If a mother has a baby on her passport but not on her visa, the airline is liable to a fine of £2,000 for bringing in a baby without documents. Is that not preposterous?
Such a draconian and indiscriminate regime creates antagonism between the immigration department and the airlines when what we should be promoting is co-operation. Government and carriers should be co-operating in tackling the ever-more complex efforts of deliberate illegality.
The Government should produce a system of documentation that is readily workable in the actual circumstances prevailing at overseas airports. In some cases the documentation is so confusing as to be virtually unintelligible to anyone other than trained immigration personnel. We should have machine-readable documents. The airlines are willing to help develop the necessary technology. We should be working more closely together to identify the organised criminal rings that seek to subvert the law. The Government must face up to the realities of the growing problem of illegal entry and stop trying to shuffle off responsibility to the carriers.
The Home Office should make available at overseas airports their own immigration officers to whom airline check-in staff can refer cases of doubt and difficulty. The Home Office needs to put resources on the round in the embarkation ports where problems originate. Beating the airlines about the head will not solve the problem of illegal immigration and I am disappointed that Home Office Ministers should think that it will.
Doubling, trebling or quadrupling the fines will not solve the problem but it will impose a tax that, ultimately, passengers will have to pay. Tourism is our major industry. Tourists already pay more for visas to this country than almost anywhere else. This regime causes further damage to the industry, which is our greatest earner of foreign exchange, and leaves a major problem unresolved. How much better to secur, the co-operation and help of airlines by flexible regimes reasonably applied.
I have been speaking in this debate as a friend of the Government. It is with regret that, in the absence of an assurance from Ministers that the forthcoming immigration Bill will introduce a more flexible regime which will then be applied with understanding, I support the Prayer to annul the order.
5.43 p.m.
Lord Greenway: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, for having given the House the opportunity to discuss the workings of the order and for having introduced the debate in such a concise way.
I understand that the Act originally came about to discourage dishonest airlines from encouraging illegal immigration. Not unnaturally, the noble Lord, Lord King, has put forward the point of view of the airlines. I hope that he will forgive me if I bring the debate back to sea level.
I realise that the huge increase in the numbers of would-be asylum seekers presents a real problem. Ferry companies and ocean carriers are only too cognisant of that fact. However, they are finding it more and more difficult, within the limited resources and manpower available to them, to avoid incurring an increasing burden of penalties arising out of infringements of the Act.
Perhaps I might enlarge on that point. Certain sectors of the ferry business are a high-volume, high-frequency operation with as many as 1,500 passengers and, say, 400 cars to be checked in a comparatively short time, sometimes as little as half an hour. Inevitably, there are times when it will not be possible to check everyone's passport. In addition, the safety aspects of passenger numbers, correctly completed tickets and boarding cards are, quite rightly, a far greater priority for shipping companies.
It is true that the staff of shipping companies who have to do the checking—the car park marshals and the receptionists—have received some training from the immigration department but there is no way that they can ever be regarded as experts. There is some evidence to suggest that the checks they carry out are more rigorous than those performed by the official authorities in some countries—a fact which in itself gave rise to certain problems initially because it was against the law of certain countries for unofficial people to carry out such checks. I understand that France has now amended that anomaly, but, as far as I am aware, it is still illegal in Belgium for an unauthorised person to carry out checks of passports. Perhaps the Leader of the House will confirm that that is still so.
One of the frequent problems that arises is the case of a would-be asylum seeker who presents what appears to be the correct documentation on embarkation and subsequently loses it during the passage—something that he has all the time in the world to do when crossing by sea. How is that to be prevented? Will the ferry companies have to photocopy every document? That would delay the ship and it would never sail. They cannot keep everyone on board in strait-jackets during the passage so that they cannot throw their passports overboard. What are they to do?
One great difference between the airlines and the shipping companies is that the normal ferry company probably receives on average no more than £10 for a foot passenger to cross the Channel. If, as so often happens, someone is detained for not having the right

1463
documentation and subsequently incurs supplementary costs for detention and repatriation, how will the ferry company possibly recoup that amount of money when it only receives in the first place such a small fare?
It seems to me that an intolerable burden—increasingly so since the doubling of the fine to £2,000 in July—is being placed on the ferry companies which are, by and large, doing their best to comply with the Act. I know of one company that has introduced a bonus scheme for its checkers in France. If they find a document that is not in order, they receive a small bonus. That has gone some way towards cutting down the number of fines, but it is still not enough. I have heard it rumoured that the fines are to be increased again. I sincerely hope that that is not so and that the Leader of the House will confirm that.
I gather that, generally, relations between the ferry companies and their local immigration officers are fairly good. If the latter were given more discretionary powers, a rather larger number of potential fines, particularly those involving a technical offence, would be waived. However, I cannot help feeling that a hard line is being imposed from the top and that the local officers are simply being required to deliver a budgeted amount of fines and at the same time provide a nice little earner for the Treasury.
The noble Lord, Lord Harris, instanced a number of typical cases. It is not necessary to spend too much time detailing more; I shall just mention one example. Such things happen quite often. Let us suppose that a party of schoolchildren from France comes over here for a visit and arrives at a Channel port. Among those French schoolchildren is a youngster who comes from, say, Mauritania. Is the official of the ferry company to turn back the whole party? Is he to allow the majority of the party to proceed leaving one poor youngster to find his own way back to Paris or wherever? Not so. Normally, the whole party is allowed to proceed. So one member of the party does not have the right papers when he gets to England and the ferry company is fined £2,000.
It is not only the ferry companies which suffer from this legislation. I can quote a recent case involving a small passenger ship coming to this country from St. Helena. On the way here the ship stopped to pick up some seamen from a sinking trawler. The seamen were Ghanaians. While the ship was on passage to this country the company which owned the ship received assurances that the Foreign Office would take care of the repatriation of those seamen. When the ship arrived in the West country, the documents which the Foreign Office supposedly were to produce had been lost somewhere. The company immediately became liable for £2,000 per person for those distressed fishermen. In this case, after some discussion, the fine was waived but the immigration department got its money anyway because it charged the shipping company £220 an hour for its services for a special call-out to go and sort out the problem.
Finally, I should like to ask the noble Lord the Leader of the House about the proposed immigration arrangements for the Channel Tunnel. During the
1464
passage of the Channel Tunnel Bill in this House much was made of the need to prevent the ferry operators being put at a financial disadvantage. Will the noble Lord confirm whether it is proposed to juxtapose officials from the UK and France at either end of the tunnel? If so, it would amount to an unfair advantage for the tunnel. Moreover, if someone happened to be turned away from the tunnel, what is to prevent him from going 10 minutes up the coast to Calais, somehow getting past the ferry check—sometimes it is not too difficult—and arriving in Dover without the correct documents, resulting in the ferry company being fined?
This whole vexed question needs to be looked at again. The coming of 1993 will no doubt complicate matters. So will the eventual outcome of the situation in Yugoslavia, with the ever present possibility of serious unrest spreading to the whole of middle Europe and giving rise to yet further tides of refugees. It is not an easy problem to solve, nor will it go away. The Government have my sympathy. However, surely a more equitable way to tackle the problem than that existing at present can and must be found.
5.54 p.m.
Lord Mottistone: My Lords, I should like to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, on introducing this Prayer. It seems to me that this new little order is an almost pointless addition to the imposition of penalties which I questioned when the Bill came before Parliament four years ago. At that time I was being advised by the ferry companies in particular. However, I see the matter now as a general problem. I also congratulate my noble friend Lord King on his contribution to the debate and for showing this order to be highly doubtful.
If my question can be answered in the time available, I should like to ask my noble friend the Leader of the House whether the Government have any positive evidence that this way of trying to reduce the numbers of people who enter with illegal documents is achieving what it set out to do. As I see it, when the legislation was first introduced it was based on a guess; and one questions whether there has been any evidence in the meantime to show that the situation has got better since this legislation came into force. From what we have heard it appears that the legislation has not been as effective as the Government wanted. Rather than asking themselves whether this is the right way to proceed, perhaps they should ask whether doubling the penalty will be more effective. I rather question whether that is the case.
Like other noble Lords, I sympathise greatly with the Government in what they seek to do and hope that they will be able to achieve their goal. However, I cannot believe that this is the right way to tackle the problem, particularly in relation to very large companies such as British Airways, which has the greater number of potential passengers on whom it cannot check and which is doing its level best to try to help solve the problem. Perhaps the point made by my noble friend Lord King about whether all carriers should be treated alike should be looked at again. I

1465
hope that my noble friend will take it up. It seems to me that reputable companies, whether they are shipping companies or airlines, will do their best. It is not in their interests to carry people who should not be carried. They want to carry people who are genuine, increase their proper trade, encourage the tourism of the country, and so on.
There are probably some companies, both shipping companies and little airlines, which do not try hard enot4,h to prevent such things happening and perhaps they need particular treatment. However, to deal with the matter in a broad brush fashion, as the legislation does, does not seem to be tackling the problem in the right way. Therefore, whatever my noble friend is able to say at this point in answer to the various questions put to him I hope that he will go back to his colleagues in the Home Office and say to them, "Look here, study this problem again. Take up the offer of the noble Lord, Lord King, to discuss the matter together with people who have experience of trying to put into effect this Act, the validity of which is doubtful. See whether you cannot come up with another way of working which does not penalise people who should not be penalised and which tackles the problem at source."
5.57 p.m.
Earl Russell: My Lords, these regulations are not merely a case of inflation and consolidation of fines regulations. The increase in the penalty on the carrier is 100 per cent. I do not think that anyone on this side of the House has suggested that during this Parliament inflation has been at the level of 100 per cent. In fact I believe that the correct figure is 31.1 per cent. So there i s a penal increase in a burden which we believe should not have been placed on the carriers in the first place.
I understand that we are not discussing the 1987 Act but I hope that I shall be forgiven one single observation on it. I have never got my mind around the requirement that a refugee must have the correct documentation. That strikes me as a little like a law making it a crime to be burgled when not properly dressed. I was very much disconcerted to discover that it is an offence for the carrier to carry any person whom he suspects of intending to seek asylum. My noble friend Lord Harris of Greenwich is quite right. That requires the carrier to be a clairvoyant.
In fact, it reminds me of the most ridiculous prosecution that I can remember. As your Lordships will understand from the substance, it was some time ago. Four eight year-olds were prosecuted in a juvenile court for loitering with intent to press Button B. The magistrate very properly threw out the charge. Apart from any question of clairvoyance, there is a question of justice. Being suspected is not a crime. Being suspected is not a proper ground for being deprived of rights.
It is possible—for example, in the case of re-entry visas—that somebody may be denied entry in a situation whereby they suffer substantial damage. The loss of a contract is a possibility. The people making that demand, the agents of the carrier, are not Crown servants. I am not a lawyer but I should be surprised if they enjoy Crown immunity. Are the agents of the
1466
airline then liable for an action in damages from the person refused entry or from his company? It does not seem fair to penalise people for being suspected. I should have thought that a representative of a Government who complain of being suspected of many things of which they say they are not guilty would appreciate that.
Another aspect which concerns me is the delegation of administrative functions to private citizens, the employees of private companies. We have come across that in other contexts; for example, the certification of students in the Student Loans Bill. It strikes me increasingly that the Government do not have an adequate sense of the majesty of the state as a public entity. They do not have a sense of the danger of transferring away from the state what ought to be public functions.
The process of transferring administrative functions to private citizens has been tried before. It has almost invariably run into trouble for the perfectly good reason that it tends to lead to a conflict of interest. Anyone exercising the power of preventing people from boarding ought to be aiming at achieving justice. The noble Lord, Lord Greenway, illustrated the point with his story about the bonus. That person has to consider not only the interests of justice but the commercial interests of his company. That is inevitable. However, it seems to create a conflict of interest, which illustrates why the carrier should not have had that function in the first place.
I hope that the Government will consider withdrawing the regulations and will refrain from increasing the penalty while the matter is given further consideration and the interests of justice are remembered a little more than they have been hitherto.
6.2 p.m.
Lord Mountevans: My Lords, like other noble Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, for bringing this Prayer before us today.
At the outset I should declare an interest as an adviser to the British Tourist Authority. Having been involved with it for 19 years, I have inevitably built up a large address book of carrier contacts. I understand the authority's concerns and those of the carriers about the proposed doubling of the fine or levy. Quite rightly, the authority sees the doubling as a threat to the achievement of its own main objective—maximising Britain's income from foreign visitors, a topic which was touched upon by my noble friend Lord King in his excellent speech.
The authority also sees its principal allies, the carriers, and especially the British carriers, as threatened. Earlier today at Question Time we discussed national interest in respect of carriers. I believe that it is essential, at a time when both aviation and shipping are going through difficulties, that British carriers, both afloat and in the air, are as strong as possible.
The order goes against that desire. It hurts most British Airways and P & O European, because they are the largest carriers in their respective UK fields. My colleagues in the authority are gathering evidence

1467
that the carriers' liability order is giving Britain a bad press abroad, which is damaging to its actions and intentions. They have evidence that our airlines in particular are losing interline business through London. The authority is also deeply concerned that immigration policy is hazarding the Government's wish to see the development of strong regional airports—a subject to which I shall return later.
The noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, and others have quoted the words of my noble friend the Leader of the House when taking the Bill originally through another place. I certainly agreed then, as now, that we must preserve our reputation as a country to which legitimate refugees can look. However, at the same time we must preserve our economic interests. We must make absolutely sure that any abusers of our system are caught.
As we have been told already, at Second Reading in another place and subsequently, the airlines were promised all the help that the Government could give. They had the impression that the orders would be applied sympathetically—a view subsequently reinforced by my noble friend, when again he referred to sensible interpretation, as we have been reminded. Just over three years later we find figures that make one wonder whether the good intentions and methodology are working. They convince me that they are not.
From Written Answers in another place on 18th July, I discover that the airlines alone—not just the British airlines—had incurred 30,694 liability notices in the three years to 10th July of this year. The penalty had been waived in respect of 2,301 passengers. It had been paid in about 13,500 instances, implying that the airlines felt that they could no longer contest liability. However, there were unpaid fines amounting to £14.85 million, which under the £1,000 rule amounts to 14,850 passengers.
The gap between the earnest intentions announced when the underlying Bill was debated and the liability notices incurred by those 31,000 passengers suggests that somewhere along the way we are getting it wrong. There will doubtless always be airlines that quite simply do not care. There will doubtless always be those who seek criminally to enter the country. However, as my noble friend Lord King has argued, there will be other carriers, such as his own, which take the situation very seriously.
In America earlier this month I became aware how seriously BA staff are addressing the issue. Rightly, BA staff in America feel that they have become the first line of British immigration control. They check passports and visas for validity, aware that 42 per cent. of passengers trapped by the present system have no valid visa, another 12 per cent. have forged documents, 11 per cent. are passengers in transit through London without visas valid for their ultimate destinations and 8 per cent. have invalid or out-of-date passports. Such figures, and the generation of them, are a tribute to the effort that British Airways has put into the problem. Furthermore, its
1468
staff have a form guide reflecting nationalities who, documentary evidence indicates, are likely to seek to abuse the system.
In the light of that, I believe that the front-line troops are doing all that they can. To ensure that this is so, I was interested to note that the passengers are identified in respect of the check-in staff who accept them for travel so that mishaps can be traced back and action taken, often in consultation with the immigration authorities in this country. Both the airlines and the Home Office are doing a certain amount. The airlines are doing much but as others have said, I fear that the Home Office is not doing enough.
A major problem—indeed a growth area among abusers—is the destruction of documents in flight. People tear them up, flush them down the toilet, throw them into the sea or (in aviation terms a terrible thought) burn them on board the plane. I am at a loss to see what airlines—indeed any carrier—can do in such cases.
The real problems are those which occur on arrival in the UK. For whatever reason, the immigration officer finds the documents invalid. He is a professional in immigration terms. I would argue that airline staff are not. They are professionals in airline terms. He too is in the front line and does his duty. The airlines, in spite of taking all reasonable steps, have got it wrong and, as far as I can understand, the liability order is issued. I believe that more flexibility than is currently the norm is called for in those circumstances. I am delighted to hear today that I am not alone in that sentiment.
Genuine cases of mishap by the carrier—and one must remember that its staff are working in a commercial world under commercial pressures—should be sympathetically treated in respect of the fine, if that is the right word. The fine should also be waived for those who are subsequently given indefinite leave to stay, which is not the case at present. I believe that we also need to establish a more equal means of dealing with those who, coached with criminal intent, destroy their documents.
I mentioned the British Tourist Authority's anxiety about the effects of this order in terms of the Government's wish to see our regional airports develop strongly, which was reiterated in another place as recently as last Wednesday. My fear is a variant on that argued by the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, in respect of the cost of the fine vis-à-vis the revenue per ferry passenger. In airline terms there is a similar problem in that many relevant services are a matter of small planes to small airports. Two thousand pounds wipes out not only the profits from a given flight; it can often wipe out the entire passenger revenue from that flight. The way ahead is to be more flexible rather than to double the fine. Otherwise our regional colleagues will be left without many of their hard fought for services.
Flexibility—a word that has cropped up again and again and may well crop up later—is my way ahead. I accept the need to protect the real refugee and to frustrate the false one. But I also accept that we need viable carriers. Provided that they continue to take all

1469
reasonable steps I believe that they should be less severely penalised than the Government currently envisage. Airline personnel believe that they are the first line of immigration control. Immigration officers do likewise. I hope that my noble friend will have some suggestions as to how we might bridge the gap between them and bridge it soon.
6.11 p.m.
Lord Richard: My Lords, I reiterate what has already been said: I thank the noble Lord, Lord Harris, for giving the House the opportunity to discuss these matters. The order is straightforward; it increases from £1,000 to £2,000 the fine payable.
The House should not neglect the fact that doubling the fine was announced by the Home Secretary, Mr. Kenneth Baker, as part of the Government's Statement on asylum. It was part of the Statement which included the withdrawal of legal aid in immigration and asylum cases and the so-called fast-track procedures for dealing with claims which are, to quote the Home Secretary, "clearly unfounded".
At the same time the Government announced plans to station immigration officers at overseas airports in order to advise airline personnel on the validity of passengers' travel documents. It is also worth recalling that since 1987 a total of £30.3 million worth of fines has been imposed under the Act, but the Government are facing difficulties in collecting all the money.
Perhaps I may begin by looking at the impact of the proposals on potential refugees. The main criticism of the operation of the Immigration (Carriers' Liability) Act is that it does not distinguish between genuine seekers of asylum and others. A further criticism has been that its operation may prevent people who are genuinely fleeing human rights violations from travelling to the UK.
Genuine asylum seekers may well be facing situations of violence and persecution in their own countries and are likely to experience difficulties in obtaining passports and valid travel documents. They may need to use a false identity in order to evade controls on departure. I refer your Lordships to the worth of Mr. Justice Schiemann when considering the matter in a case last year. In wise and perceptive words he stated:
"He who wishes to obtain asylum in this country, short of a prior contact with the Home Secretary offering him asylum"—
which your Lordships may agree is a somewhat rare event—
"has the option of lying to the UK authorities in [his] country in order to obtain a tourist or some other sort of visa: obtaining a credible forgery of a visa or obtaining an airline ticket to a third country with a stop over in the UK".
Even with a valid passport there is no provision in UK immigration law to grant a visa to a person in his home country to enable him to come to the UK as a refugee. By definition a person is not a refugee until he has left his own country. It is difficult for someone who is a refugee, who wishes to be a refugee or who in practice is the victim of persecution in his own country
1470
to become a refugee sufficiently for the United Kingdom to consider him as such. It is a nightmare situation.
Amnesty International has recently investigated the situation. In a recent report it stated that the operation of the Immigration (Carriers' Liability) Act and this order intentionally restrict access to the UK's asylum procedures. Indeed, in a letter from the Home Secretary to Amnesty International the Government conceded that the Act and associated visa requirements:
"do indeed prevent some asylum seekers from coming to the UK".
By placing the onus of responsibility on the airline and other carriers—we must not forget the shipping carriers, although the airlines have made the running in opposition to the order—to act as an immigration control the measures have the consequence that potential asylum seekers may be turned away before having a fair chance to state their case. In other words, they may not be able to come here to state their case because an airline ticket seller, who may not be a British subject, may on the basis of his imprecise training decide that a passport or visa is invalid. Such action may have the severe effect of restricting a genuine asylum seeker from having a chance to state his case.
It has also been argued that immigration controls are incompatible with 1951 United Nations Convention on Refugees. The UN High Commissioner for Refugees notes that such controls:
"work indiscriminately to …hinder the access by refugees to status determination procedures and the rights and protection these persons should enjoy".
Amnesty International notes that international standards:
"are quite clear in stating that governments must ensure that visa and carrier sanctions 'have no detrimental effect on the fundamental principles of international protection'".
The Home Secretary in his Statement on asylum in July stated:
"It does not oblige parties to facilitate, still less to encourage, the arrival of asylum applicants".
It may well be true that the convention imposes no such obligation but it does impose an obligation on the Government not to obstruct access to their asylum procedures by those in need of protection. Talk in the context of Britain's "long tradition of providing refuge", to which the Home Secretary referred begins to sound a little hollow.
What is the position of the carriers? I do not believe that it is reasonable to expect airlines to perform the role of judging genuine asylum seekers. As the chairman of the Board of Airlines Representatives, Mr. Conor McGrath, said in the Independent on 10th July:
"We are being asked to act as the first line of immigration officials".
He also stated that some airlines had tried to station people outside the aircraft as they docked to check documents and so prevented asylum seekers from reaching immigration. Again by definition, unless one is in the country one cannot be considered and if one does not land one is not subject to such procedures.
It is clear that carrier operators, in particular the airlines, have adopted practices aimed at minimising

1471
the number of fines incurred. I am not surprised; one would expect that. Some airlines now carry out checks on passengers' documentation prior to embarkation. In effect, they are shifting the burden of immigration control to airline personnel, who are not trained or qualified to carry out such work. In other cases would-be asylum seekers have been prevented from disembarking upon arrival in the UK after carrier staff have belatedly discovered the falsity or absence of their documentation.
All noble Lords have details of cases in which fines have been imposed but on which most sensible people would take the opposite view. The idiocy of one case is such that I must share it with the House tonight. An airline flying from New York to Copenhagen was diverted to Glasgow. There was no airside transit lounge for passengers to wait in so they were taken from the aircraft. One passenger should have had a British visa but did not, so the airline was fined. When it was pointed out to him that the airline had been fined because he did not have a British visa, he is supposed to have said that he could not understand why because he did not want to be in the UK in any event.
All I can say to the Leader of the House is that if that is the system that the Government are trying to force airlines and carriers to operate, they have created an almost absolute offence in which the reasonableness or otherwise of the way in which the airline behaves is not considered. If it is considered, it is considered by Home Office immigration officials on the basis of making a gracious concession to the airlines that a fine will not be imposed although there is power to do so.
The present system is unfair and dangerous. It is unfair because of the lack of flexibility which it imposes on airlines in cases in which most people would agree that fairness demands that fines should not be levied.
It is dangerous because it is wrong that carriers should be forced to act as immigration officers. It is not their function, nor should it be. The provision of extra training for airline staff, which the Government are apparently contemplating, in the detection of forged passports and visas emphasises and does not detract from the point I am making. The Government are trying to make airline staff better immigration officials than they otherwise would be by giving additional training in the detection of forged passports and visas.
It is dangerous also because training airline personnel is no substitute for a proper and fair system of immigration control. As my right honourable friend Mr. Hattersley said in his response in another place to the Home Secretary's Statement on 2nd July, it is important to ensure that genuine asylum seekers are not denied entry because of the obsession with keeping out bogus applicants.
The Government should think again about this matter. I do not believe that they have it right. The system which is being administered is neither fair nor flexible. I hope that the Leader of the House can give us some joy.
6.23 p.m.
Lord Waddington: My Lords, I am not sure about that. First, my noble friend Lord Ferrers has asked me to apologise to the House. He had hoped to reply to the debate but he feared that if he remained until the end of the debate, he would be unable to fulfil an engagement at Westminster Abbey this evening which involves accompanying a member of the Royal Family. I am quite sure that the House will excuse him. I hope that your Lordships will bear in mind that I have taken over from my noble friend at short notice. However, I do not believe that that will do me much good because I cannot pretend to have no knowledge of the history of the matter.
The Act was passed in order to stem a sharp increase in the number of passengers who were arriving in our country without passports or visas or with forged documents. It enables my right honourable friend the Home Secretary to levy a charge against a carrier who has brought to this country a person who does not possess proper documents.
A growing number of such people had been arriving here before the passage of the Act. Some had been allowed to board planes without having passports or visas. Others had apparently gone through passport control in the country of embarkation with a passport and visa and then had either disposed of the documents or passed them to an agent so that he could use them again. Either way the passengers arrived in the United Kingdom with no means of identification, posing great problems for immigration officers and adding considerably to the burden of our immigration control.
I must tell your Lordships that the problem continues. I must also tell your Lordships—and this must be important in deciding whether the Government are adopting the right approach—that the problem is not unique to the United Kingdom. Other countries are experiencing the same problem and they have adopted similar solutions to deal with it. At present some 16 countries, including Canada, Australia, Germany, Belgium and Denmark, have laws similar to our own, and the rest of our European Community partners have indicated that they intend to follow suit.
I can say with confidence that the difficulties posed by inadequately documented passengers and the responsibility of carriers to help combat the problem are now well recognised both by governments and by such international transport bodies as the International Air Transport Association and the International Civil Aviation Organisation.
I readily recognise that carriers' liability measures cannot be a complete solution to the problem with which we are faced but they can be a considerable help. It is difficult to say precisely what help they are but I do not believe that those countries which are following our lead have had any difficulty in reaching the conclusion—and I say this in reply to my noble friend Lord Mottistone—that they can help. Indeed, their potency is one of the annoyances to the airlines.
The Act provides for a carrier to be liable to pay a charge of £1,000 or such sum as is prescribed by my

1473
right honourable friend the Home Secretary for each passenger who is brought here with inadequate documents. The order which we are debating today increases the sum liable to be paid to £2,000.
Since the Act was passed many carriers have taken steps to ensure that their passengers possess the necessary documents and permits to gain entry to this country. I am bound to tell your Lordships that in our view some carriers have not fully faced up to their responsibilities under the Act although I hasten to add that I am not putting the airline of which my noble friend Lord King is such a distinguished head into that category.
Since 1987, just four years ago, some 30,000 people have arrived in the United Kingdom without proper documents. They have therefore given rise to a charge under the Act. Last year alone there were some 12,000 cases. In view of those figures and in order to bring home to all carriers their responsibilities, we decided that it would be right to increase the sum prescribed under the Act.
I do not believe that we set carriers an impossible task under the Act. I stand by the words I used in 1987 which were quoted by the noble Lord, Lord Harris. I said then that we cannot expect carriers to stop clever forgeries and they are not obliged to do so. My noble friend Lord King said that airline staff are being asked to make judgments about the intentions of people with valid documents. I must say to my noble friend that that is a misapprehension. The airlines must see that people have documents which give them the right to enter this country.
Various cases have been quoted. Some were fanciful. I believe that my noble friend Lord King quoted the example of a mother having a baby on board an aircraft and the airline being fined when the mother arrived with the baby.
Lori King of Wartnaby: My Lords, I said that she had a baby with her. I did not say when it was delivered.
Lord Waddington: My Lords, if the baby was delivered before the lady went through embarkation control then there is no point in the case because if that was the situation, there was no valid documentation for two passengers. Therefore, the requirements under the Act would not be fulfilled.
Lord Harris of Greenwich: My Lords, is the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, suggesting that the baby was likely to be an economic refugee? What is the point of fining an airline £1,000 because a baby was brought in with its mother?
Lord Waddington: My Lords, I should like to assure the noble Lord that as far as I am aware there is no such case. We are discussing a case conjured up as a possibility.
Lord King of Wartnaby: My Lords, I will send the evidence regarding the child to the noble Lord. It may come in useful.
Lord Waddington: My Lords, I say again to my noble friend that a straightforward case of a mother and baby boarding a plane when there is only
1474
documentation for the mother, provides no difficulty for the airline staff in distinguishing two from one and recognising that documentation exists for only one person and not two. I therefore leapt to the conclusion that my noble friend was thinking of a more complicated case such as where the baby was born after the mother had gone through immigration control. Clearly there cannot be a problem for the airline staff if the baby is born before the mother goes through immigration control.
There was quoted also the case of the citizens of Turkey. There is no doubt that guidance to carriers makes clear that nationals of certain countries, including Turkey, require a visa. Equally, guidance is given to carriers that nationals of Nepal require a visa. The case of the baby from Iceland is not a good example of intolerance by immigration staff. That is a case where the penalty under the carriers' Act was waived, which was not surprising in the circumstances.
It is true that carriers must have some knowledge of United Kingdom entry requirements in the sense of needing to know whether a specific national requires a visa in order to enter Britain. That is the kind of knowledge which an official of an airline must possess. However, I repeat that there is certainly not placed on the shoulders of an airline official the duty of distinguishing between a person who intends to ask for refugee status when he arrives in this country and a person who does not. That answers one of the principal points made by the noble Earl, Lord Russell.
Printed guides have been sent to all carriers. We provide training material. Teams of immigration officers have given training directly to airline staff on some 60 visits overseas covering over 30 countries. A further 14 visits have taken place under the auspices of the International Air Transport Association. My noble friend Lord King is right that the airlines can benefit from advice from the immigration service, and that is precisely what they have been receiving. My noble friend said that the Home Office should put people on the ground. He will recall that in his Statement of 2nd July my right honourable friend the Home Secretary announced that we proposed to provide document specialists at selected overseas airports to advise carriers regarding the authenticity of travel documents. One such team has operated successfully at Lagos airport in Nigeria and more are being arranged.
It is an exaggeration to suggest, as some do, that the Act requires carriers to become experts in detecting forgeries. That is not what the Act says. Section 1(4) of the Act states quite clearly that a document shall be regarded as being what it purports to be unless its falsity is reasonably apparent. Unfortunately, many examples of well executed forgery turn up at our airports. They give rise to no liability under the Act, and that position will not be affected in any way by the order which we are debating this evening.
The Government do not expect miracles of detection from carriers. But we do expect them to carry out checks to a standard which is achievable with reasonable care and training. Half of all the

1475
charges which are levied under the Act arise in absolutely straightforward cases in which a person who requires a visa simply does not have one.
During the first six months of 1991 3,153 cases of passengers without visas were recorded and 2,743 cases of passengers without passports or other documentation. That is unacceptable. On the other hand, £2.5 million of charges have been waived on review. That does not paint a picture of lack of flexibility which was alleged by my noble friends Lord King and Lord Mountevans. A substantial number of charges are waived as a result of representations being made by the airlines.
A person who presents himself at a port of entry in the United Kingdom without a visa will not be allowed to enter. However, he will have travelled to the country and produces all the problems of whether he should be allowed in or sent away, and to where and by whom. It is therefore essential that the possession of a visa, where that is required, is checked before the person embarks from the country of origin. All carriers must realise that if they do not accept their responsibilities under legislation which has been passed by the United Kingdom Parliament they will face a charge. That is the purpose of the order.
I mentioned earlier that some passengers who arrive with no documents at all may have held documents when they checked in for their flights. Subsequently, perhaps in the departure lounge or indeed on the aircraft itself, they may have destroyed them or handed them over to an agent for re-use. That is a growing practice, and I understand the difficulty that carriers face with those cases. However, Section 1(2) of the 1987 Act states clearly that no liability is incurred if the carrier can show that the passenger had a proper document on embarkation. The best safeguard is to place a check at the departure gate. Some carriers already do that and are experiencing considerable success as a result.
With regard to the suggestion that our system of charging under the Act is too rigid, I like to think that not only are we flexible on that matter but also that we are sympathetic. I believe that to be proved by the waiver of £2.5 million in liabilities since the Act became law.
The carrier may first raise the matter with the immigration inspector at the port or airport at which the charge was incurred. If he is not satisfied with the result of that review, he may raise it with immigration service headquarters.
I am aware that some countries favour rising scales of charges rather than a single flat rate as under our own legislation. We keep in touch with those countries, but there is no evidence so far that such a system is more effective in preventing the arrival of undocumented passengers, and it is certainly a more complex system.
I have acknowledged that some carriers have addressed their responsibilities under the 1987 Act. But, as I explained, some carriers have not. No government can accept the continued arrival at our ports of large numbers of undocumented passengers. The obvious people who can determine who should fly
1476
in their aircraft, or sail in their ships, are the carriers themselves. The order is necessary in order to bring home to all carriers the need—and indeed their legal responsibility—to check that their passengers have the necessary documents to enter our country. That is clearly an important and increasingly necessary safeguard.
I believe that I have dealt with a number of points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Harris. However, in addition to dealing with the specific points he mentioned, I must add that in certain cases people who may have wished to make a claim of asylum were, by the carriers themselves, put back on planes and taken away. That is clearly unacceptable and we are doing all we can to prevent that happening.
The noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, posed the question of how staff at an airport should treat an asylum seeker in imminent danger of his life. One can always invent cases. One can speculate about all kinds of cases which may appear in fiction. In fact, that case is particularly unreal. What better way of advertising one's presence in the country where one says that one is going in fear than to turn up at the airport in that country in order to go to the British Airways' desk and say that you wish to claim asylum? When we were debating the matter in another place a long time ago, I found that all kinds of hypothetical cases were put forward. But it is very difficult to put your finger on cases where, in reality, a person would be frustrated in making a proper claim for asylum in the way suggested by the noble Lord.
The noble Lord asked whether the new Bill, when presented, will allow amendments to the Act. I do not know the answer. The noble Lord will have to wait until he sees the Long Title. In any event it is not a matter for me. Presumably, it is a matter for the Clerks of this House and of another place to say how wide the Long Title is. My opinion is that it is unlikely that the whole field of law and asylum will not be within the scope of the Bill. I cannot promise that to be the case, but it would be pretty unlikely if that were not the situation.
I was asked whether, after my speech in 1987, the kinds of undertakings I had given in another place were communicated to immigration officers. Clearly, the precise words were not, but clear instructions were given to immigration officers that they had a discretion which they should exercise reasonably. In my opinion they clearly have. There are one or two points in answer to my noble friend Lord King of Wartnaby. The position is that the majority of people who claim asylum do so having got here legally. They may have come as visitors. However, about one quarter of the people who get here have passports without visas or are without passports at all and then claim asylum. I believe that we try to distinguish between those who co-operate and those who do not. That is why one has a comparatively large number of fees waived.
I believe that I mentioned before, when replying to the noble Lord, that airline staff are not being asked to make judgments about the intentions of people with valid documents. That is not what the Act or the law say. All they have to decide is whether a person has a

1477
passport and valid documentation for entry into Britain. In reply to the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, I understand the position to be that it is intended to have juxtaposition of controls when the Channel Tunnel is opened. To exclude the ferry operators from the scheme of the Act would have driven a coach and horses through the legislation. Thirty per cent. of the traffic into Great Britain comes by sea. Many determined to get here when they had no right to would not find it difficult to give up their plans to travel by air and travel by sea instead. But the difficulties for the shipping companies can be exaggerated because the vast majority of people who travel to this country by sea from the Continent, which is well over 80 per cent., are either British citizens or citizens of the EC. The Act relates only to those who require leave to enter the country and the vast majority of ferry passengers do not require that leave.
The noble Lord, Lord Greenway, said that an operator has no power under French or Belgian law to inspect documents. That matter is being considered at present. The law is being considered by the Treasury Solicitor, but I cannot say more at the present time. I believe that I answered the point made by my noble friend Lord Mottistone about positive evidence that the Act was doing good. I also answered the point made by the noble Earl, Lord Russell, about the terms of the Act.
I do not believe that my noble friend Lord Mountevans was right when he said that carriers' liability is giving us a bad press abroad. In fact, the lie to it is given by the fact that many other countries are adopting our legislation because they have decided that A is necessary in order to avoid abuse of immigration controls. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Richard, the United Kingdom's obligations under the refugee convention relate to asylum seekers in this country or arriving at our ports. All those who claim asylum on arrival will have their applications considered under the criteria of the convention, but the convention does not impose an obligation on us to facilitate the travel of individuals from all over the world who may wish to claim asylum here. The convention's aim is to ensure that refugees find protection and not a guarantee that they can migrate to the country that they find most attractive.
It is sometimes said that genuine refugees are unlikely to have correct documentation because they would have been able to escape only by having forged documents. In fact relatively few asylum seekers arrive here directly from their own countries. Most of them have been in transit in one or more countries on the way and board a plane for Britain in a safe country. Where an asylum seeker has reached a safe third count y but feels that the United Kingdom would be a more appropriate place of refuge, it is open to him to apply at a British diplomatic post for consideration of his application. A refugee would be allowed to come to the United Kingdom—if this was the most suitable place to receive him—if, for example, he had close lies here. But we acknowledge no responsibility to receive people with no such ties and who have already reached safety in another country.
1478
The noble Lord, Lord Richard, mentioned the case of someone on a flight from New York to Copenhagen which was diverted to Glasgow. That charge was waived. No absolute offence is created, but there is a charge in order to reinforce our immigration control. However, there is a discretion which, as I have said, is frequently exercised. In all the circumstances I ask noble Lords to accept that this measure is an important and valuable tool to make a reality of our immigration control. If it were thrown out of the window we would not be telling the truth if we said that we wanted to have firm immigration control.
Lord Renton: My Lords, my noble friend may wish to correct one small slip of the tongue which could give rise to serious misunderstanding. When speaking of people arriving in this country with forged passports, he said that no liability would arise unless it was reasonably apparent on the face of the passport that it was forged. My noble friend clearly meant that no liability would arise for the carrier in those circumstances, but for a great many other people such a liability could arise.
Lord Waddington: My Lords, my noble friend is right. I meant that no liability would rest on the shoulders of the carrier.
6.49 p.m.
Lord Harris of Greenwich: My Lords, at this time of the evening it would be unreasonable to go through the various arguments which have been deployed during the course of this relatively brief debate. It has been a pretty one-sided debate. There was not a single speech from any part of the House in support of the intention of the Government to increase the fine, for fine is what it is, from £1,000 to £2,000.
I say at once that, like many noble Lords, I found the speech of the noble Lord, Lord King, especially powerful, particularly when he drew attention to a point which was no doubt self-evident—it was nevertheless right that it should have been made—that the object of airline staff is to welcome potential passengers and not subject them to the kind of interrogation that is in some cases appropriate so far as concerns the immigration service. That is particularly appropriate—I hope that on this point I shall have the noble Lord the Leader of the House with me—when the Government are talking about introducing a Citizen's Charter. A Citizen's Charter is aimed at improving the quality of service offered not only by state agencies but also by the private sector. It is remarkably inconsistent to promote the approach set out in the order and to say at the same time that the Government want to have a Citizen's Charter to improve the quality of service offered—in this case to the travelling public.
Having referred to the speech of the noble Lord, Lord King, he will forgive me, I know, if I deal primarily with what the noble Lord the Leader of the House said. I give an unqualified welcome to what he said about the Kenyan case, the Czechoslovak case and other similar cases. I was reassured by what he said and I am sure that the matter will be looked into. We cannot allow episodes of that kind to take place in

1479
this country. There were one or two points on which I fear I did not find his argument quite so persuasive, as I am sure the noble Lord will accept. I come back to the Turkish and Nepalese cases. I still do not understand how British Airways was supposed to protect itself when more than 60 Turks boarded a plane in Cairo to go via London to Lisbon and then destroyed their travel documents in the lavatory. Why is it right to fine an airline in such a situation when it cannot possibly have committed any act of negligence?
The second case involved the Nepalese military band which turned up in uniform at Dover. The noble Lord, Lord Waddington, said that a special watch has to be kept on the Nepalese. That may be wholly true—if the noble Lord says that it is, I am sure it is true. But this was a uniformed military band. Were its members going to be economic refugees? I should have thought it slightly unlikely. However, the ferry line concerned has been fined the astonishing sum of more than £30,000 for allowing those people back into this country when they were en route to Heathrow Airport. They had the tickets available. How can it be right to fine the ferry line more than £30,000? How can it be "sensible and reasonable"? Those were the words of the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, when Minister of State at the Home Office, in giving a guarantee that that was the way in which the immigration service would approach its responsibilities.
I ask the noble Lord specifically whether the words "sensible and reasonable" were drawn to the attention of the service which has the duty of implementing the regulations. The noble Lord said that he was not sure that the specific words necessarily had been used. The fact of the matter is that they should have been used. In the case of the Icelandic baby a fine was imposed, but on the second appeal the appeal was successful. But why was there a fine in the first place? The idea of a baby being brought into this country for an emergency operation and someone deciding to impose a fine on the airline concerned is frankly ludicrous. No one can possibly suggest that there is any relationship between what the noble Lord said when Minister of State at the Home Office and the way in which these procedures are being implemented by the immigration service.
I do not want to say this as I sit down because I want to give the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, notice of what I am going to say. Normally—but not always—matters of this kind are not put to a vote. I have no particular desire to vote this evening, subject to one important qualification. If the noble Lord will give me an undertaking that this issue will not be excluded from the Long Title of the Bill on asylum I will certainly not insist on a vote this evening. I have no desire to hold up the proceedings of the House. However, as the noble Lord will recognise, there is widespread alarm in all parts of the House about what is going on. What is going on is wholly unacceptable, as a number of the noble Lord's noble friends have said. We know that there is to be a Bill. It has been leaked already—indeed, it has been announced already. The Bill will already have been drafted and
1480
therefore the Long Title will be available. If the noble Lord will give me an undertaking, I shall not put the matter to a vote. However, it is quite impossible for the House to let this matter pass unless we are guaranteed that there will be an opportunity to raise it again.
The only other matter I wish to raise with the noble Lord concerns a point which I do not think he dealt with in his reply. I should be perfectly content for the matter to be dealt with by means of correspondence. I asked the noble Lord whether a legally qualified person outside the public service could be brought into these procedures as a final court of appeal. He would not conduct oral hearings—that would be ridiculous—but he would look at the documents. There is at the moment a three-stage appeal process; first, to the immigration officer at the airport; then to Lunar House; and then to a senior officer of the department. We are asking that the final court of appeal—an independent, legally qualified person—should make a decision exclusively on the papers. It seems to me right that that final court of appeal should be someone from outside the public service. It is wrong that officers of the state should impose fines of more than £30 million without any person outside the public service looking at the papers. Having given the noble Lord an opportunity to reflect on what I have just said, I shall gladly give way to him if he would like to intervene.
Lord Waddington: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, I am grateful to him for having said that he will write to me about the second point. Clearly it is a matter which ought to be considered by colleagues. I am in some difficulty on the first point. I cannot give an undertaking on behalf of the whole Government while standing on my feet at the end of a debate. However, I can repeat what I said before: that I should be very surprised indeed if the scope of the Bill was not wide enough. I should certainly like to see all these matters ventilated when we come to discuss refugee status, as we all believe we shall do before very long.
Lord Harris of Greenwich: My Lords, we recognise the noble Lord to be an honourable man in every sense of the term. He has said something which I have reflected upon. He has given an indication of his own position on the matter. If he communicates that view to his right honourable friend the Home Secretary, I should be very surprised if his right honourable friend took a contrary view. Thus I shall not press this matter to a Division on the basis that that will be done. Nevertheless I hope that in the period between this debate and the next occasion on which we come back to the matter the Government will look at it again. I am sure the noble Lord recognises the widespread concern in all parts of the House about what has been going on, particularly regarding the procedural points. I very much hope that these matters will be looked at before we return to the issue. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

British Technology Group Bill
Returned from the Commons this day with the amendments agreed to and with consequential amendments.
Export and Investment Guarantees Bill
Returned from the Commons with the amendments agreed to.

Adjournment
7 p.m.
Lord Hesketh: My Lords, in adjourning the House during pleasure perhaps I might take this opportunity to draw your Lordships' attention to the fact that the scaffolding which has been a feature of the Peers' Lobby for so long has now gone, revealing a ceiling restored to its former magnificence.
I am told that the restoration has been achieved in a way which retains almost all of the original components. The old decorative panels have been carefully cleaned to reveal the original colours and the ornate timber ribs have been strengthened, using new techniques of pressure-injected resin. At the same time, a new structural framework has been constructed in the roof void above the Peers' Lobby, from which the restored ceiling has been suspended. The finished ceiling incorporates facilities for televised events, such as the forthcoming State Opening of Parliament, and reflects a great deal of credit on the Parliamentary Works Office, which is to be congratulated.
While I am on the subject of works, I should also mention that the inconvenience which your Lordships have suffered because of the work on the kitchens is now shortly to be over. It had been hoped to complete the work during the Summer Recess, but it was a very large project—as I am sure your Lordships are aware—involving 24-hour working throughout the contract. Unfortunately, after the building was opened out it was found necessary to carry out more structural work than was anticipated and that could have reasonably been assumed to have occurred. Some minor work still remains but that apart we now have our new kitchen. Congratulations are due to those who have carried out the work.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: My Lords, on behalf of these Benches I should like to say that there is nothing that can be added to what the Chief Whip said. We entirely agree with the commendations he has made and ant very happy that he has found time to make this statement.
Baroness Seear: My Lords, we on these Benches are also delighted that the kitchens are working again and thank the noble Lord for making this statement.
Lord Hesketh: My Lords, on that happy domestic note I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure until 7.15 p.m.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
[The Sitting was suspended from 7.2 to 7.15 p.m.]

Royal Commission
The Lord Chancellor (Lord Mackay of Clashfern): My Lords, it not being convenient for Her Majesty to be personally present here this day, she has been pleased to cause a Commission under the Great Seal to be prepared for proroguing this present Parliament.
Then, the Lords Commissioners (being the Lord Chancellor, the Lord Aberdare, the Lord Waddington, the Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos, and the Lord Jenkins of Hillhead) being present and the Commons being at the Bar, the Lord Chancellor said: My Lords and Members of the House of Commons, Her Majesty, not thinking fit to be personally present here at this time, has been pleased to cause a Commission to be issued under the Great Seal, and thereby given Her Royal Assent to divers Acts which have been agreed upon by both Houses of Parliament, the Titles whereof are particularly mentioned, and by the said Commission has commanded Us to declare and notify Her Royal Assent to the said several Acts, in the presence of you the Lords and Commons assembled for that purpose; and has also assigned to Us and other Lords directed full power and authority in Her Majesty's name to prorogue this present Parliament. Which Commission you will now hear read.
A Commission for Royal Assent and Prorogation was read.
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, in obedience to Her Majesty's Commands, and by virtue of the Commission which has now been read, We do declare and notify to you, the Lords Spiritual and Temporal and Commons in Parliament assembled, that Her Majesty has given Her Royal Assent to the several Acts in the Commission mentioned; and the Clerks are required to pass the same in the usual Form and Words.
The following Acts received the Royal Assent:
British Technology Group Act,
Export and Investment Guarantees Act,
Greater Manchester (Light Rapid Transit System) Act,
Birmingham City Council Act.

Prorogation: Her Majesty's Speech
Her Majesty's most gracious Speech was then delivered to both Houses of Parliament by the Lord Chancellor (in pursuance of Her Majesty's Command) as follows:
"My Lords and Members of the House of Commons,
"The Duke of Edinburgh and I were pleased to receive the state visits of His Excellency the President of the Republic of Poland and Mrs. Walesa in April and His Excellency the President of the Arab Republic of Egypt and Mrs. Mubarak in July.
"We recall with pleasure our state visit to the United States of America in June. We remember with satisfaction our state visits to Namibia and

1483
Zimbabwe in October, where I was also present on the occasion of the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting.
"My Government played a full and vigorous part in the action taken by the United Nations and the international community to eject Iraqi forces from Kuwait and to restore that country's independence and legitimate government, and in setting up a compensation fund for those who suffered following Iraq's invasion. They responded rapidly to the Iraqi Government's persecution of their own people. They have made it clear that Iraq cannot resume its place in the international community while the present government remain in power.
"My Government have continued to make a substantial contribution to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, and otherwise to maintain provision for national defence commitments. They have welcomed improvements in the security situation in Europe and are participating fully in adapting the alliance, including the development of a stronger European defence identity in the Western European Union. They have announced proposals to restructure Britain's defences to reflect changing international circumstances.
"My Government hosted the successful Economic Summit in July and the subsequent historic meeting between summit leaders and President Gorbachev of the Soviet Union. Following the Summit, My Government vigorously denounced the attempted coup in the Soviet Union and supported President Yeltsin's courageous stand against it. They have been working actively to encourage the integration of the Soviet Union and its republics into the international economy. My Government welcomed warmly the return to independence of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.
"My Government have continued to work for balanced and verifiable arms control agreements. They played an important part in concluding the Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe and in the Third Review Conference of the Biological and Toxic Weapons Convention.
"My Government have played a full part in the development of the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe. They have worked actively for new mechanisms for maintaining stability in Europe.
"My Government have continued to work towards the single European market. They have participated fully in negotiations in the intergovernmental conferences on political union and economic and monetary union. They have supported the development of the Community's relations with other European nations. They have, with our European partners, concluded joint declarations with the United States, Canada and Japan and economic and financial agreements with Asia, Latin American and the Mediterranean non-member countries.
"My Government welcomed the inaugural meeting of the European Bank for Reconstruction
1484
and Development in London in April. They have continued their active support for democratic change in Eastern Europe.
"My Government's commitment to strengthening the United Nations was reflected in the political declaration issued by the London Economic Summit.
"My Government have maintained a substantial and effective overseas aid programme to assist developing countries.
My Government welcomed progress towards democratic government in Africa and towards the end of apartheid in South Africa. They have worked strenuously for the prosperity and stability of Hong Kong. They have welcomed the continuing progress in Latin America towards democracy and market economies.
"My Government have continued their sustained efforts to combat terrorism in the United Kingdom and elsewhere. They welcomed the recent release of hostages from Lebanon and have maintained their efforts to obtain the release of all remaining hostages in the Middle East.
"My Government ratified the 1988 United Nations Convention Against Illicit Traffic in Narcotic Drugs and Psychotropic Substances and have played a full part in establishing the United Nations International Drugs Control Programme. They concluded agreements to confiscate drug traffickers' funds with seven governments.
"My Government welcomed the agreement of the consultative parties to an environmental protocol to the Antarctic Treaty.
"Members of the House of Commons,
"I thank you for the provision which you have made for the honour and dignity of the Crown and for the public service.
"My Lords and Members of the House of Commons,
"My Government have pursued firm financial policies which have reduced inflation sharply and laid the foundations for the resumption of sustained growth. The pound sterling has remained well within its band in the exchange rate mechanism.
"My Government have further reduced the rate of corporation tax and made a number of changes to the tax system to benefit businesses. They have introduced additional measures to help unemployed people return to work.
"As part of My Government's privatisation programme the electricity supply industry in Great Britain has been restructured and shares in the companies sold.
"The Citizen's Charter White Paper set out My Government's policies for improving the quality of public services through increased choice, better value for money and stronger accountability.
"Legislation has been enacted to establish a School Teachers' Review Body for England and Wales.
"My Government have implemented reforms of the National Health Service and announced strategies for improving health. They have implemented the Children Act.
"An Act has been passed to improve the town and country planning system and the arrangements for compensation for compulsory purchase.
"My Government have continued to work for the regeneration of our cities. New competitive funding initiatives have been introduced to improve the quality of regeneration in priority areas and the renovation and management of local authority housing in England and Wales.
"An Act has been passed to give the courts jurisdiction to try certain war crimes of the Second World War.
"Legislation has been enacted to improve the administration of criminal justice and the treatment of offenders in England and Wales.
"An Act has been passed to strengthen the law on dangerous dogs.
Legislation has been enacted to provide new benefits for disabled people and to strengthen parental responsibility for children by improving the assessment, collection and enforcement of maintenance.
"An Act has been passed to improve the arrangements governing coal mining subsidence.
"Legislation has been enacted to encourage private financing of roads and better co-ordination of streetworks, to improve road traffic law and management and to enable trust ports to become publicly-owned companies.
"Legislation has been enacted to enable contractor operation of the Atomic Weapons Establishment and to provide for the sale of the British Technology Group.
"An Act has been passed to update the powers of the Export and Credit Guarantee Department and to facilitate the sale of the insurance services business.
"In Northern Ireland My Government's efforts to combat terrorism have continued. An Act has been passed to reform anti-terrorist legislation. My Government have continued to encourage political progress by promoting collective talks with the main constitutional Northern Ireland parties. They have maintained a constructive relationship with the Republic of Ireland under the Anglo-Irish Agreement.
"For Scotland, legislation has provided for a Natural Heritage Agency to secure an integrated approach to conservation and countryside matters.
My Lords and Members of the House of Commons,
"I pray that the blessing of Almighty God may attend you."
After which the Lord Chancellor said:
My Lords and Members of the House of Commons, by virtue of Her Majesty's Commission which has been now read we do in Her Majesty's name, and in obedience to Her Majesty's Commands, prorogue this Parliament to the 31st day of this instant October, to be then here holden, and this Parliament is accordingly prorogued to Thursday, the 31st day of this instant October.
Parliament was prorogued at ten minutes before eight o'clock.

  GIBRALTAR AIRPORT
  GIBRALTAR AIRPORT
  GIBRALTAR: EUROPEAN COURT ACTION
  GIBRALTAR: EUROPEAN COURT ACTION
  SOVIET UNION: UK DIPLOMATIC REPRESENTATION
  SOVIET UNION: UK DIPLOMATIC REPRESENTATION
  YUGOSLAVIA: HUMANITARIAN AID
  YUGOSLAVIA: HUMANITARIAN AID
  CAMBODIA
  CAMBODIA
  ETHIOPIA: EX-PRESIDENT MENGISTU
  ETHIOPIA: EX-PRESIDENT MENGISTU
  CRIME LEVELS SINCE 1969
  CRIME LEVELS SINCE 1969
  CHARITY COMMISSIONERS: DUTY OF CARE
  CHARITY COMMISSIONERS: DUTY OF CARE
  DANGEROUS DOGS
  DANGEROUS DOGS
  WAR CRIMES ACT 1991: COLLECTION OF EVIDENCE
  WAR CRIMES ACT 1991: COLLECTION OF EVIDENCE
  NUCLEAR REACTORS IN EASTERN EUROPE: SAFETY
  NUCLEAR REACTORS IN EASTERN EUROPE: SAFETY
  NORTHERN IRELAND: CONFESSIONS TO CRIME
  NORTHERN IRELAND: CONFESSIONS TO CRIME
  FAMILY PROCEEDINGS: ACCESS AND LAW ON DISCLOSURE
  FAMILY PROCEEDINGS: ACCESS AND LAW ON DISCLOSURE
  TRAFFIC DIRECTOR FOR LONDON
  TRAFFIC DIRECTOR FOR LONDON
  BRITISH RAIL CONTAINER SERVICES
  BRITISH RAIL CONTAINER SERVICES
  CAR RADIOS: VOLUME
  CAR RADIOS: VOLUME
  EC MEMBER STATES: DEFENCE BUDGETS
  EC MEMBER STATES: DEFENCE BUDGETS
  UK DEFENCE BUDGET
  UK DEFENCE BUDGET
  SOVIET DEFENCES
  SOVIET DEFENCES
  ANTI-MISSILE EXPENDITURE
  ANTI-MISSILE EXPENDITURE
  ANTI-BALLISTIC MISSILE TREATY
  ANTI-BALLISTIC MISSILE TREATY
  BALLISTIC MISSILE DEFENCES: US OFFERS
  BALLISTIC MISSILE DEFENCES: US OFFERS
  "BRILLIANT EYES" SATELLITES
  "BRILLIANT EYES" SATELLITES
  BELFAST: BRICKED-UP HOUSES
  BELFAST: BRICKED-UP HOUSES
  NORTHERN IRELAND: PERSONS UNDER ARREST
  NORTHERN IRELAND: PERSONS UNDER ARREST
  DEER: PROTECTION DURING TRANSIT
  DEER: PROTECTION DURING TRANSIT
  INCOME SUPPORT: CHILD RECIPIENTS
  INCOME SUPPORT: CHILD RECIPIENTS
  INCOME SUPPORT: ADULT RECIPIENTS
  INCOME SUPPORT: ADULT RECIPIENTS
  SOCIAL FUND CRISIS LOANS FOR STUDENTS
  SOCIAL FUND CRISIS LOANS FOR STUDENTS
  HOUSING BENEFIT AND MORTGAGE TAX RELIEF PAYMENTS
  HOUSING BENEFIT AND MORTGAGE TAX RELIEF PAYMENTS
  UNIVERSITIES: RESEARCH SELECTIVITY EXERCISE
  UNIVERSITIES: RESEARCH SELECTIVITY EXERCISE
  INSTITUTE OF ZOOLOGY: FUNDING
  INSTITUTE OF ZOOLOGY: FUNDING
  PUBLIC AUTHORITY HOUSING: RESTRICTIVE COVENANTS
  PUBLIC AUTHORITY HOUSING: RESTRICTIVE COVENANTS
  SHETLAND SANDEELS
  SHETLAND SANDEELS
  ROBERT GORDON INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
  ROBERT GORDON INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY