Sitting of 28 March 1991

Preamble
The House met at half-past Nine o'clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRAYERS
  PRIVATE BUSINESS
    TAY ROAD BRIDGE ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
    Read the Third time, and passed.

  MR. SPEAKER (ABSENCE)
  Ordered,
  That Mr. Speaker have leave of absence on Friday 19th April to attend the enthronement of His Grace the Archbishop of Canterbury.—[Mr. Goodlad.]

  PETITION

    Education (Warwickshire)
    9.34 am
    Sir Dudley Smith: I beg to present a petition from the residents in the Leamington Spa and Warwick area. The petition expresses concern about possible reductions in education for the under-5s if Warwickshire county council is charge-capped. The petition is signed by more than 150 people, and I well understand their anxiety. I hope that it will be noted by Ministers in the Department of the Environment.
    The petition reads:
    To the Honourable the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Parliament assembled. The Humble petition of the Residents of Warwickshire, showeth that Warwickshire's Educational Provision will be very seriously damaged if current budget levels of £278·3 million are not maintained and we believe that if this level is cut by Community Charge Capping, then Warwickshire Educational provision will be in an intolerable situation. Wherefore your Petitioners pray that your honourable House will urge the Secretary of State for the Environment to reconsider the standard spending assesment for Warwickshire in order to enable Warwickshire to provide a just and fair resourcing in education.
    And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray, etc.
    To lie upon the Table.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Sackville.]

  Middle East
  9.36 am
  Mr. David Atkinson: I greatly appreciate this opportunity to refer to the situation in the middle east following the successful outcome of the Gulf war. Although the House has held several debates about the winning of that war, curiously there has been no debate until now on winning the peace. Therefore, I intend to discuss several of the issues that must be addressed if we are to resolve the outstanding problems which have caused so much tension, conflict and persecution in the area and which have produced such large numbers of refugees.
  I have no doubt that history will judge Saddam Hussein as having done the world a service by taking it by complete surprise by invading Kuwait so ruthlessly last summer. In doing so, he dispelled any complacency that had been encouraged by the remarkable events in central and eastern Europe, which led to the end of the cold war and to a new order which heralded peace and security and encouraged democracies in countries as far away as Nicaragua, Namibia and Nepal.
  On 2 August last year, Saddam Hussein demonstrated that human nature does not change and that there would always be a need for collective security and for the international rule of law to deal with the aggression and atrocities of dictatorships such as his. Thanks to him and to the remarkable coalition of more than 30 countries which sent forces to the Gulf, the world today is a more realistic place and the authority of the United Nations has been considerably enhanced. That represents a great tribute to the initial response of President Bush and of my right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley (Mr. Thatcher). Now all of us, as member states of the United Nations, have a responsibility to learn the lessons of that experience and to avoid its repetition.
  It is encouraging to see our world leaders calmly sharing ideas about how that can be done without rushing into, for example, an ill-prepared international conference or European Community initiative. I pay tribute to my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary and to my hon. Friend the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office for the bilateral meetings that they have undertaken thus far and also to the United States Secretary of State James Baker for his untiring work.
  I do not want to dwell on the current situation in Iraq since it would not be right for us to dictate who governs that country. That is a matter for its own people, although we would all like to see a pro-democracy movement emerge from the civil war. Nevertheless, no one who has seen on television the destruction of the Kuwaiti oil wells and the terrible atrocities that Saddam Hussein perpetrated on the Kuwaiti people will want his crimes to be forgotten or ignored. I understand that we regard those war crimes as, in the first instance, a matter for Kuwait and Saudi Arabia to pursue. However, I shall look forward to learning from my hon. Friend the Minister how we anticipate that Saddam Hussein will be held accountable for his crimes.
  Obviously we welcome the Kuwaiti Government's intention to introduce a democratic process once their people have been able to resume a more normal existence and the economy and infrastructure have been repaired. Current reports of the persecution of Kuwait's remaining

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  Palestinian population must, however, be of concern to us. Whatever new arrangements the Kuwaiti Government might want to make for the future employment of foreigners, there can be no justification for the kind of violent treatment and discrimination that we have read about. Any evidence of Palestinian collaboration or treachery during the Iraqi occupation must await the consideration of an independent judiciary, which will certainly be one hallmark of Kuwait's new democracy.
  I want to refer to the larger, long-standing issues of the middle east. The first is the continuing plight of the British hostages. John McCarthy will begin his sixth year of captivity on 17 April, Terry Waite is now in his fifth year of captivity, Jackie Mann will soon commence his third year of captivity, and Roger Cooper remains imprisoned in Tehran. Following the war, surely there now exists a degree of good will between our allies, including Syria, a degree of relief, and perhaps appreciation on the part of Iran, now that Saddam Hussein has been so resoundingly beaten, and even some realism on the part of the Hezbollah in Lebanon that life will never be the same again in the middle east. Surely we can appeal to those new feelings when presssing for the immediate release of those hostages. I look forward to learning from my hon. Friend what new initiatives the Government intend to take in that respect.
  The situation in Lebanon must now be resolved. After nearly two decades of civil war and internal terrorism, of invasion and occupation by two foreign powers—Israel and Syria—and armed interventions by the Palestine Liberation Organisation and the United States, its people can surely expect a settlement that will restore Lebanon's sovereignty. Surely they can expect a settlement that re-establishes Lebanon's representative Government and that delicate balance between Christian and Muslim which once enabled that country to be the most prosperous in the middle east. The prerequisite for that is, of course, the complete withdrawl of all Syrian and Israeli forces of occupation. I accept that that is unlikely to be achieved without international inspiration—one could say, without divine inspiration.
  International appreciation will certainly need to be applied to the Kurdish issue, which can no longer be ignored. One should recall that the true evil of Saddam Hussein first came to the world's attention through the testimonies of those Iraqi Kurds who survived his chemical weapons by seeking refuge in Turkey.
  I appreciate that the demands of self-determination for the Iraqi Kurds will be referred to in much greater detail in the following debate, but this debate would be incomplete without noting the undeniable fact of history that an independent Kurdistan was mentioned by the great powers as part of the break-up of the Ottoman empire in the 1919 treaty of Versailles and was promised under the 1920 treaty of Sevres. That promise was quickly abandoned as a result of the creation of the republic of Turkey in 1923.
  Who then can blame the Kurds for their many attempts to seek autonomy, including by armed insurrection, especially where they are strongest in Iraq? Some of those insurrections have resulted in short-lived concessions, but most have resulted in the most appalling brutalities, culminating in the use of poison gas at Halabja in 1988,
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  which killed 5,000 Kurds. It must also be said that some Kurds have resorted to terrorism, most notably the PKK in Turkey. That group's attempts to draw attention to their demands are unacceptable given the unprecedented autonomy that the Kurds enjoy in Turkey.
  The reported success of the Kurds in northern Iraq against the forces of Saddam Hussein suggests that they may yet succeed in achieving a Kurdish entity within a more democratic and federated Iraq. That will only serve to encourage the Kurdish people in the other four countries in which they live to seek the same. It is obvious that there will be a Kurdish problem for as long as their demands for self-determination are ignored and denied. That matter must now be on the agenda for resolution.
  It must be clear to all that the central cause of continuing instability, tension and conflict in the middle east is the Arab-Israeli dispute. From the day that the United Nations recognised the Jewish state of Israel in 1948, there have been four devastating wars, as well as a series of interventions in Lebanon. The dispute has been responsible for the current figure of 2,420,000 stateless, homeless Palestinian refugees who are registered with the United Nations, which supplies relief services through the United Nations Relief Works Agency.
  Just as any resolution of that conflict must end the protracted state of war to enable Israel to enjoy a right of existence within recognised and secure borders—as provided for in UN resolution 242—it is equally clear that there must be a just and permanent settlement for the Palestinians which will enable them to choose permanent accommodation within the realities of the present situation. Only a democratic process towards self-determination and self-governance on the west bank and the Gaza strip will make the work of UNRWA unecessary.
  Despite more than four decades of hostility, the problem is not intractable: the Camp David accords, which brought peace with Egypt, should remind us of that. Therefore, it must be helpful to urge Israel's Arab neighbours to end their state of war with Israel and to recognise it and its right to exist.
  The gulf between Israel and the PLO is not as great as I thought. I was encouraged to discover that in my discussions with Israeli Ministers and Palestinians during my visit to the region in November to prepare a report for the Council of Europe—a follow-up to the one that I reported to the House in July 1988.
  The Shamir peace plan of 1989 and the Palestine National Council declaration of 1988 recognised the rights of the other—in the case of the PLO, for the first time. They represent a foundation upon which both parties are prepared to negotiate.
  The disappointment today is that Israel, which has always opposed an international conference to resolve its dispute with its Arab neighbours—understandably, in my view—is failing to take initiatives to introduce its own democratic values to its occupied territories, values upon which a process of reconciliation confidence, security and co-operation can be built. Nor does it appear seriously to b seeking those bilateral negotiations with its neighbours which it maintains is the only way forward, as it was with Egypt. Instead, it continues to stall on its own peace process. It is alienating still further its Arab population by continued Palestinian deportations, further Jewish settlements in the occupied territories, and by encouraging a climate in which the basic human rights of the Palestinians are seen to be violated.
  Mr. Michael Latham: I am sure that my hon. Friend wishes to continue to paint a balanced picture. Will he confirm that Israeli Ministers have said on many occasions that they are prepared to negotiate with any Arab state? Indeed, as is well known, feelers have been extended for some time to Syria. Will he further confirm, on the Palestinian issue, that one of the major problems, which he has not yet mentioned but perhaps will, is that the PLO supported Saddam Hussein in the recent conflict?
  Mr. Atkinson: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making those points, to which I was about to come.
  Lest it be thought from the critical comments—I accept that they have been critical—that I have made about Israel that I am no longer a Conservative Friend of Israel, let me say that one of the most enduring influences in my life was my experience of working on a kibbutz within range of Syrian guns from the Golan heights. I assure my hon. Friend that I am wholly committed to Israel's right to exist as a Jewish homeland within secure borders. But I also recognise, as surely do most Israelis, that Israel cannot indefinitely impose a military occupation on an increasingly militant people. The wholesale deportation of its Palestinian population in favour of a greater Israel, as a few extremists advocate, is a solution totally unacceptable to its friends, as it is, I am sure, to most Israeli citizens.
  Indeed, as I found on both my fact-finding visits in 1988 and last year, the Israeli defence force which has been assigned the almost impossible task of seeking to provide a civil administration and a semblance of municipal services in the occupied territories—including, to its credit, the replacement of temporary refugee camps with planned, attractive, permanent settlements for which Israel does not receive sufficient credit—does not believe the current situation to be tenable. The only plausible solution, as it and I believe, is a political one.
  In turn, it should be stressed that the Palestinians are proving equally short-sighted in failing to appreciate the political advantages of publicly ending the intifada to encourage a climate within which a dialogue can be initiated, as well as, of course, to help to restore international goodwill which they undoubtedly lost in foolishly and blatantly supporting Saddam Hussein.
  Unfortunately, this situation is now threatened by a wholly new dimension, which I was also asked to investigate by the Council of Europe's Committee for Refugees, Migration and Demography. I refer to the sudden and growing number of Soviet Jewish immigrants coming into Israel—120,000 last year, 200,000 this year of the total 1·2 million invitations issued to date, and a total of at least 3 million expected by the Jewish Agency in due course. Whilst the vast majority are currently settling in Israel proper, which is their right, there is now no doubt that a growing number are settling beyond the green line. While it is suggested that the majority of Soviet Jews will not seek the labour-intensive employment performed by Palestinians in Israel, it is clear that both the employment and housing opportunities for Palestinians in Israel and its occupied territories, already under severe pressure as a consequence of the Gulf war, will become even more so as a result of this massive influx of Soviet Jews.
  That situation can only become more inflammable as time goes on. For that reason alone, the new climate of
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  reconciliation and negotiation generated by the Gulf war is timely and necessary if we are to avoid further tension and bloodshed in the occupied territories and in Israel.
  At the outset, I applauded the unhurried approach currently being conducted in seeking solutions acceptable to all the parties in the middle east. It has been right to emphasise that neither the United States nor the principal European Governments involved wish to keep our forces in the region a moment longer than necessary.
  It has been right to stress that we are not in the business of seeking to impose a cold-war style solution such as a Baghdad pact. It must be for the states themselves to decide on those structures which will enhance regional security, but in our bid to encourage lasting peace in the region, it is clearly sensible to recommend a process which has been proved workable and within which bilateral problems can be resolved peacefully by dialogue and consensus. As the Foreign Secretary told the UN General Assembly on 26 September of last year:
  "The slow and steady progress of the CSCE process in Europe may be useful."
  He continued:
  "The CSCE process allows political dialogue, and has established common principles ranging from respect for borders to human rights. There is transparency through confidence and security-building measures."
  He was surely correct. The CSCE process offers to the middle east a practical blueprint based on territorial integrity and the inviolability of frontiers. It would encompass many of the peace plans on offer without the disadvantages of an international conference feared by Israel.
  Indeed, since my right hon. Friend spoke those words, the Foreign Ministers of 10 western Mediterranean countries, including the Mahgreb states of Algeria, Libya, Tunisia and Morocco, have agreed to explore further the prospect of a CSCM for the Mediterranean. In addition, Italy and Spain have proposed its extension to include the middle east—a CSCME—as the specific institution for the solution of regional crises and as a framework for co-operation for peace and security, for which the Arab League clearly would not be appropriate.
  Such a process, based on the Helsinki baskets, can in no way be interpreted as an imposition of western values on a predominantly Muslim region. They are universal values upheld by the United Nations, to which all subscribe and which, indeed, are inspired by Islamic principles.
  Certainly an application of basket 1, which has produced much progress in recent years in both conventional and strategic arms control and on-site verification mechanisms, is an essential element in establishing security in the region, which is the prerequisite to peace.
  The principles of economic and cultural co-operation of basket 2 will be equally essential to resolve the common, long-standing problems of the region, such as the shortage of water, of energy production, and distribution, of agriculture and medicine, much of which already stands to be assisted by the guarantees of official aid from the United States of America, the Community and Japan.
  Of course, the human rights principles of basket 3 will encourage greater protection of minorities and respect for freedom of thought, conscience and religion in an area which is the cradle of the world's three major religions and the source of so much religious conflict over the centuries.
  I remind the House of the difficulties experienced by British and American troops in conducting Christian

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  services in Saudi Arabia and recent alarming reports of the imprisonment and torture of four converted Christian Egyptians, about which I shall be seeing the Egyptian ambassador later today.
  As a result of what the international coalition achieved, the world today is a far safer place, and weaker neighbours of stronger states can feel more secure as a result. As James Baker rightly emphasised, we now have an historic opportunity to resolve those outstanding problems in a region—the middle east—that has been the chessboard of the super-powers and the predicted trigger of a third world war for far too long. I hope that today's debate will represent a modest contribution toward that end.
  10 am
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Mark Lennox-Boyd): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Atkinson) on raising this issue, and shall do my best to answer most of his questions. His visits to the Arab countries of the middle east and the long period that he spent in Israel will have helped him to judge the problems from both sides.
  Now that Kuwait has been liberated, we are working to ensure the establishment of a just peace in the region. The main focus of our attention at present is the United Nations, where the Government have been and are closely involved in negotiations on the next Security Council resolution, which we hope will be passed shortly. We hope that the resolution will set out the conditions with which Iraq will be required to comply for a permanent end to hostilities in the Gulf. They will be comprehensive and designed to ensure that Iraq meets the requirements placed on it by the Security Council.
  In the shorter term, there is a pressing need for international relief for the Iraqi civilian population. The latest reports prepared by the United Nations and non-governmental organisations such as the Save the Children Fund are very troubling. We have asked the United Nations to do everything possible to ensure that relief supplies reach Iraq as rapidly as possible.
  We must also consider ways to strengthen security throughout the Gulf region to ensure that there is no repetition of the conflict. The priority tasks are to achieve progress on Gulf security, regional arms control and the Arab-Israeli question. New security arrangements in the region are matters for the Gulf states to decide. The Gulf Co-operation Council states—Syria and Egypt—have already made a good start. We welcomed the Damascus declaration issued by their Foreign Ministers on 6 March and, if asked, we stand ready to play our part. However, there is no question of British ground forces remaining permanently in the Gulf.
  Thereafter, the highest priority should go to constraining the supply of material for nuclear, biological and chemical weapons to the whole region. We want Iraq to comply fully with the non-proliferation treaty and with the relevant biological and chemical weapons conventions. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said, we shall be working at the United Nations for the destruction, under international supervision, of Iraq's missiles and NBC capacities.
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  One of the important issues that my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, East raised was war crimes. Anyone who breaks the provisions of the Geneva conventions may be held liable. Thus, individual Iraqis now bear personal responsibility for breaches of them. That position was reaffirmed in Security Council resolutions 670 and 674. The superior orders defence will not be accepted as an excuse. Machinery already exists under Geneva conventions of 1967 for prosecuting grave breaches of them. The three avenues are: first, a trial before Iraqi courts; secondly, extradition for trial before courts of another party to the conventions, including other Arab states; and, thirdly, the possibility of special international tribunals. There are obvious difficulties with all those approaches, and it is too early to say what mechanisms might be applied in this case.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, East also mentioned Kuwait's future and the constitutional arrangement in Kuwait. It is for the Government and people of Kuwait to decide those matters, but we welcome the outcome of the Kuwait national conference last year which cleared the way for a return to the 1962 constitution and new elections for a national assembly. Difficulties and uncertainties will be inevitable in the first few months after liberation, but in a message to his people on 24 February, the Emir spoke of a national pact that will govern his country's future course. I remind my hon. Friend of the comment made by the Crown Prince on 7 March, when he recalled the Kuwaiti Government's commitment to popular participation and the 1962 constitution.
  In his speech, my hon. Friend dwelt on the Palestinian question and the problems of Palestinians in Kuwait, an area that concerns him. We have repeatedly made clear to the Kuwaiti Government at a high level that alleged collaborators should be dealt with under the rule of law. We made our fears about that known even before liberation, and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister repeated them to the Crown Prince when he saw him on 6 March. As our ambassador in Kuwait said, a large number of Palestinians have been screened by the Kuwaiti security forces. The aim is to indentify those who collaborated. Unfortunately, as tends to happen in such circumstances, the manner of the Kuwaiti authorities has not been particularly gentle. However, we welcome Kuwaiti assurances that the law will be respected. We shall continue to review the matter, but I emphasise that we have seen no reports of Kuwaiti authorities carrying out summary justice.
  The Palestinian question is central to the affairs in the middle east. There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein set back the search for peace in the middle east. Iraq's unprovoked missile attacks on Israel have shown that Israel's fear of threat from her Arab neighbours is not unjustified. The Palestine Liberation Organisation has lost credibility by acting as an apologist for Iraq. That will undoubtedly have increased Israel's reluctance to talk to representative Palestinians.
  New opportunities have, however, arisen. The coalition's action against Iraq has shown that aggression does not pay, which is important for Israel to consider. It has created a new climate for confidence-building measures, and all the states in the region will have new strategic perceptions and a new determination to live at peace. We must grasp that opportunity for progress. My hon. Friend mentioned a CSCM for the Mediterranean.

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  We are discussing that possibility with our European colleagues. It is worth exploring, but my hon. Friend will agree that other issues must come first.
  The Americans will continue to play a central role in the peace process. We welcome President Bush's reassertion, in his speech to Congress on 6 March, that a settlement of the Arab-Israel question must be based on United Nations Security Council resolutions, especially 242 and 338, and on the principle of land for peace. Secretary of State Baker's tour of the area was a good start. It was well received by the Arabs and revealed areas of common ground on which we can build.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, East drew attention to the settlements in the occupied territories of the west bank. We welcome unreservedly the liberalisation of Soviet emigration controls, including the freedom of Soviet Jews to go to Israel. But Jewish settlements in the occupied territories, including east Jerusalem, are illegal. Allowing Soviet Jews to settle there would set back further the search for peace. Recently, Israel announced that it intended to deport four Palestinians from Gaza. We deplore that intention and, with our colleagues in the European Community, are making representations about it.
  I wish to refer to the principles that must underly the way ahead. The detail is not yet clear, but we believe that there is a need for discussions between Israel and the Arab states that are not at peace with her and between Israel and representative Palestinians about the future of the occupied territories. It is not realistic to imagine that there can be progress on the first without movement on the second. We have been working to achieve that. The result should be a settlement that guarantees Israel's right to exist within secure borders and the Palestinians' right to self-determination.
  The Arab-Israel dispute is not the only political problem in the middle east, as my hon. Friend noted. We have observed the signs of progress towards greater stability in the Lebanon and remain committed to the Taif
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  accord as the best means of achieving a united Lebanon free of all foreign troops. We welcome the renewed undertakings of countries in the area to bring what influence they can to bear to secure the release of the British hostages still held in the Lebanon.
  We are greatly concerned at the continued captivity of our three hostages in the Lebanon. We are pressing Iran, whose influence we believe to be decisive, to honour its commitment to achieve the release of western hostages, including our own. We are making clear to the Iranian Government the importance that we attach to freeing our hostages and are making it clear that future advances in our bilateral relationships with Iran depend on progress in this matter. We are also encouraging Syria to use its influence in this direction. On several occasions, the Syrians have repeated their willingness to help, and we welcome that. We shall continue to do all that we can to achieve the release of Terry Waite, Jack Mann and John McCarthy.
  The peace and stability of the middle east are of vital interest to us all. The reversal of Iraqi aggression was the first of our tasks, but many more lie ahead. The determination of the coalition against Iraq and the unprecedented co-operation of the Security Council offer new hope for an international effort to win peace. We shall play our part. The United Kingdom is a permanent member of the Security Council, one of the European Twelve, a close ally of the United States and a traditional friend of many states in the region. We are determined to make the most of every opportunity in our efforts to bring a just peace to the region. We and our European Community partners continue to have an important role to play in the occupied territories. For example, we provide substantial support to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestinian refugees and have valuable aid programmes. We also monitor human rights closely and regularly remind the Israelis of their obligations to administer the territories in accordance with the fourth Geneva convention.

  Kurds in Iraq (Political Future)
  10.14 am
  Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to speak about Iraqi Kurdistan. I strongly believe that it is right that Parliament should debate this subject before the Easter recess, as Iraq's political future may be decided in the next few days and weeks, with far-reaching consequences for the whole region.
  It may interest the House to know that just before I came into the Chamber I was in contact with representatives of the Iraqi Kurds who are in almost hourly contact with bases inside Iraqi Kurdistan. They report violence on a considerable scale.
  In a lead article in The Guardian this morning, Martin Woollacott, who is now in the region, reports:
  "Saddam Hussein's forces are brutally bombarding the civilian population of Kirkuk using helicopters and artillery."
  He writes:
  "As we drove into the city we saw three helicopters hovering above. Every day they drop bombs at random on Kirkuk, including, the Kurds say, napalm. Every day casualties are brought into the overloaded main hospital."
  Martin Woollacott then refers to corpses in the foyer of the hospital and to the hospital not having enough surgeons. He writes:
  "At one point orderlies rushed towards us with a cardboard box containing a baby. A mother was caught in the napalm attack two days ago and died in the hospital. The napalm had burned through to her womb, injuring the baby which the medical staff tried to save. They delivered the child, amputated one of the burned legs, and put the baby into what passes for intensive care."
  I draw attention to that report because one of the main issues that I wish to raise is the use of fixed-wing aircraft and helicopter gunships by the Iraqi authorities.
  My principal and most immediate aim in raising this debate is to ask the Government to press the coalition forces to issue a statement at once insisting that the terms of the ceasefire are complied with, that those terms include the requirement that all Iraqi combat aircraft, whether fixed-wing or helicopters, are grounded and that, if Saddam Hussein does not immediately comply, those aircraft will be shot down without further notice.
  I remind the House that, in an interview broadcast last night the allied commander in the Gulf, General Schwarzkopf, told David Frost that Iraq was given permission to fly its helicopters only for civil, humanitarian and internal administrative purposes and that he had been lied to and "suckered" by Iraqi ceasefire negotiators as to their use. White House spokesman Marlin Fitzwater confirmed that the use of combat helicopters violated the oral and written agreements between the two sides. United States commanders confirmed that, although they were more difficult to track, helicopter gunships could be dealt with as effectively as Iraqi fixed-wing aircraft. Even as late as last night, Lieutenant-General Sir Peter de la Billiere stated that Iraq had breached the ceasefire agreement with the use of helicopter gunships. What will be done about that? What will the coalition forces do about it?
  I want to make it clear that I am in no way advocating that coalition ground troops should be deployed further within Iraq. I am merely urging that Saddam Hussein should be deprived of aircraft that have been used to deliver weapons of mass destruction against civilians, who
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  have no defence against aerial attack. If those aircraft are not grounded now, we may well shortly receive further horrific reports about attacks not only with napalm, phosphorous and sulphuric acid, but, as was evidenced only too clearly by what happened in Halabja during the war with Iran, with mustard and nerve gas. Clearly they must remain on the agenda.
  We have the proven capability to stop these atrocities. If we fail once again to act, we cannot help but be implicated in Saddam Hussein's massacres. The coalition fought the war that made the uprising possible. President Bush himself called for the uprising. We cannot now wash our hands of the consequences.
  It is clear that there is a grave humanitarian problem in Iraq. The report of the Secretary General of the United Nations which was published only yesterday paints a grim picture of progressively worsening human catastrophe. The imminent temperature rise in Iraq will add cholera and typhoid epidemics to the number of intestinal and respiratory diseases and to the increasing incidence of malnutrition. The recent Oxfam/Save the Children report confirmed that the population of Baghdad depended on the sewage-polluted Tigris for drinking water, which is therefore infected.
  The situation in the south is so desperate and confused that almost no reliable areawide reports exist, and the only information is the anecdotal evidence of American soldiers who are sickened by the growing results of the human tragedy that they are being forced to witness. In the north, an estimated 6 million people are facing acute shortages of food and medical supplies, and there is no fuel to power the flour mills. Since the start of the uprising, Saddam Hussein has deliberated used the politics of hunger against the liberated areas. It is reported that, without syringes, antibiotics and even the most basic medical supplies, Kurdish forces, who have sustained more than 11,000 casualties according to reports, have to cope with the needs of injured refugees fleeing from the remaining Ba'ath-controlled territory.
  The Iraqi-Kurdistan Front, which is a coalition of all the Kurdish groups, has repeatedly asked for the UN Security Council to be reconvened to consider the growing seriousness of the situation. Only yesterday, the IKF promised to provide safe passage for the International Committee of the Red Cross to bring in aid on the understanding that it would go to all areas of Iraq, including the liberated areas. Kurdish leaders agreed to do everything possible to help the civilian population, despite the knowledge that, even with safeguards, Saddam Hussein may well succeed in keeping the food and medicine from Kurdistan and that his distribution of it may even help to prop up his regime and lend it some spurious political legitimacy.
  As the IKF has established administrative control of Kurdistan and has the means to deliver aid where it is most needed, I strongly urge that it is delivered directly to the IKF either by road convoy from Turkey to Syria or Iran or by air to captured northern airfields under the auspices of the International Committee of the Red Cross or some other reputable body, as is the case in Ethiopia.
  I shall now deal with the issue of Iraq's internal political dynamics and the likely outcome of the uprising. It is becoming clear that elements in the United States Defence Department favour the suppression of the opposition and the striking of some deal with a Ba'ath regime headed by someone other than Saddam Hussein. That is the wrong

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  way forward, because Saddam Hussein and the Iraq regime are inseparable. It is a fascist, totalitarian and terrorist regime and is historically unique in remaining covert, even in government. By its recent actions and, in particular, by its attacks on Islamic holy places, it has lost any trace of legitimacy with the majority Shi'ite population, certainly in the south. It has been shown merely to have used Islamic feeling for its own perverse and strictly secular objectives.
  The only way to achieve political stability in Iraq and in that region is to establish a democratised, pluralistic society which respects the human collective rights of all peoples of Iraq, perhaps through the setting up of a federation or confederation of autonomous regions which meet the aspirations of Kurdish, Shi'ite and other groups. The risk to the world community if it fails to support this democratic movement is much greater than any risk involved in the potential breakdown of opposition unity. The cohesion of the opposition forces is remarkable. The Shi'ite parties appear to have dropped any claim to establish an Islamic republic. Many Shi'ites have said that they have learned from their exile in Iran the need to avoid the excesses of Islamic fundamentalism.
  If I were a Kurd in the anger of conflict, I would want a separate independent state, but these moderate, responsible people have put that claim aside. Many have positively rejected it. Their leader, Jalal Talabani, who has just returned to a tumultuous welcome in Iraqi Kurdistan, publicly told his fighters that this is an uprising not just of Kurdistan but of the whole of Iraq. An indication of their objectivity is that, far from taking revenge on Iraqi army prisoners, they are giving them parcels and sending them safely home through Kurdish lines. If these forces of toleration and democracy are given the support of the world community, they will never forget it. If we let them down, neither shall we. If democratic forces receive no assistance from the world community and are defeated as a result, it will send forth a message about the prospects for democracy in the middle east that will last a generation. Such a message would not be helpful.
  The recent IKF offer to set up a provisional Government should be considered, if not now certainly in the near future. At this stage, it might not find ready takers, for reasons that we understand, but when the regime of Saddam Hussein is toppled, or even he is toppled, it should be considered as a realistic option pending the establishment of a more stable, long-term and permanent arrangement.
  Let us now consider arms sales to Iraq. I supported the war, but I did not dwell on arms sales during the war because that was not the right time to do so. We must now legitimately ask how it all happened and what can be done to stop it in future. Will it happen again? I am concerned that once the conflict has been resolved and sanctions lifted, some spurious justification will be found to re.-arm Iraq and to arm further the countries in that region. The Government claim that existing legislation adequately deals with military exports, but that is nonsense. We all recall the excuses by the Minister of State for Defence Procurement when he was Minister of State, Department of Trade and Industry over the supergun affair. The attitude to arms sales was flog them and damn the consequences, but that cannot be accepted in future. It must stop.
  We need an international initiative which clearly monitors our exports as well as those of Germany, France
  1106
  and other major arms exporters. International cooperation is needed to overcome the widespread abuse of end user certificates, bills of lading and other export documents. In that context, I envisage an enhanced role for the UN. How can we develop that role? The way towards the much talked about, but, as yet, theoretical, new world order, which I strongly support, is to strengthen the United Nations.
  On a recent visit to America, I pressed with representatives of the Pentagon, the State Department and the White House the case for an enhanced United Nations role. At a meeting yesterday with representatives of the Chinese embassy, for reasons which I am sure my hon. Friends will understand I pressed for a sympathetic response to the question of the United Nations being given a role, not just in interstate conflicts but in conflicts within states. The United Nations should be able to deal with conflicts within states which threaten the peace and stability of whole regions.
  In a beautifully scripted article in The Guardian, Kenneth Galbraith recently argued for an enhanced role for the United Nations in tackling poverty as the root cause of world instability. He said:
  "the UN must have authority to end and reverse not only aggression by one country against another, but also mass slaughter and destruction within a country. As the UN should exercise sovereignty, so it should have power when sovereignty is outrageously misused to suspend it. Modern mass horror now results, if anything, less from international conflict, than from internal conflict and massacre. The most elementary requirement of the new world order is the need for it to take on the responsiblity for stopping internal butchery."
  This new role for the UN must not remain an academic dream but must start now, today, with the declaration that all Iraqi combat aircraft, fixed-wing and helicopter, must be grounded or they will be shot down, and that if weapons of mass destruction are used, the UN will not stand idly by. This is an historic opportunity for the UN once again to begin the process of establishing a meaningful role. If it fails to act, it will be enormously demaged, because it will be implicated in the slaughter of civilians that has already begun. The time for deliberation is over. It is time to act.
  I pay tribute to the level-headedness and courage shown by leading statesmen in both Turkey and Iran throughout the crisis. I know that Iranians are deeply suspicious of the motives of the west—a perfectly understandable attitude after their experiences under the Shah, who was for many years propped up by the west. The west owes a debt of gratitude to Iran for its handling of the conflict and the peculiar but important position that it took throughout the war in the Gulf. I hope that it will lead to a growing understanding between the peoples of the United Kingdom and that country. We should all be grateful to it for the role that it played.
  10.31 am
  Mrs. Ann Clwyd: I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) for allowing me some of his time during this Adjournment debate.
  It is an indictment of the House that, while the Gulf war was raging, we had almost daily statements on the conduct of the war, but since the perceived end of it, there has been not one statement on the situation inside Iraq or on the great troubles caused to its people. Were it not for the squalid manoeuvring of the Government over the past few

  1107
  days, rushing through legislation which they think will bring them electoral gain, there should have been a statement on that situation.
  There is no doubt that the people of Iraq are suffering a great deal, and this has been shown by the many reports from broadcasters and journalists. They have seen their country so badly damaged that it has returned to a pre-industrial stage. They grieve for tens of thousands of sons and husbands killed on the battlefield. According to the direct testimony of the United Nations, Save the Children and Oxfam, all of which have recently sent their observers into the country, they face starvation, serious epidemic and disease. It is disgraceful that I am forced to raise this important issue in an Adjournment debate.
  The people of Iraq continue, despite appalling difficulties, to try to overthrow Saddam Hussein, who brought them to this catastrophe. Meanwhile, the killing and the dying continue. Over the past few years, I have chaired the Campaign against Repression and for Democratic Rights in Iraq—a national organisation of which many of my hon. Friends are members. As the records will show, it has continually brought to the attention of the House the appalling human rights record of the Saddam Hussein regime.
  We were loud and persistent voices, whose pleas fell on deaf ears. Over six years, we told the House about the disappearance of women and children, of torture, execution and public hangings, and of oppression and dictatorship. After Saddam Hussein used chemical weapons against the Kurds at Halabja, killing at least 5,000 people and razing 4,000 Kurdish villages to the ground, I and some of my hon. Friends, particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn) urged the Government to use sanctions against Iraq. I am sorry to say that there was little response. Saddam Hussein continued to be treated as a valuable friend until 2 August last year.
  Then came the invasion of Kuwait, and everything changed. There was the Gulf war, but, while Kuwait has been liberated, we still do not know the extent of the death toll inside Iraq. Because of my long involvement with the opposition in Iraq, I have recently attended two international conferences to discuss how that opposition can be co-ordinated internationally, to the greatest effect. I went to Washington to a meeting organised by the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and to Sweden, to a meeting organised by the Swedish Save the Children Fund. The Kurds argued in all those meetings that they wanted autonomy within Iraq and the protection of their language and culture in the other countries in which they live.
  Throughout the Gulf war, we said that we had no quarrel with the Iraqi people. If that is the case, we now have a responsibility to show that. That responsibility is enshrined in the Geneva convention of 1949, the United Nations convention on the rights of the child and the world summit for children. The UN mission found in Baghdad that normal life had almost come to a halt. The situation in the south and Basra is believed to be dramatically worse because of severe fighting. With military attention now reportedly turning to the north, the situation there might deteriorate further. Certainly for refugees in the south, the allied forces in the area may be able to play a humanitarian role.
  1108
  No meaningful quantities of food supplies have been imported since the start of sanctions. Until then, 70 per cent. of Iraq's food came from imports. There is immediate danger of major disease and epidemic. Water and sewerage services are in a critical state, with a consequent danger to health. In the children's hospital in Baghdad, the admission of children with diarrheal diseases has increased fourfold. Cholera, typhoid and hepatitis threaten the population. The health service is in a state of collapse because of the lack of power, fuel and communications. In numerous places, sewage is flowing in the streets. Maternal and child health services are particularly affected. The medical immunisation system, which had been one of the most advanced in the developing world, has broken down almost completely. Antenatal care has almost ceased, There are reports of high-risk delivery at home, with no help. Medicines and drugs are in short supply. At present, the central warehouses are empty. Distribution of relief supplies of drugs are being held up for lack of fuel.
  The United Nations report states bluntly:
  "It is unmistakable that the Iraqi people may soon face a further, imminent catastrophe which could include epidemic and famine, if life supporting needs are not rapidly met."
  The United Nations Under-Secretary-General, Mr. Martti Ahtisaari, said this week that he was shocked by the scale of Iraq's humanitarian problems. The Minister said this morning that he, too, thinks that this is a troubling situation. All the evidence shows that basic foodstuffs such as flour are now critically low, and the supplies of sugar, rice, tea, vegatable oil, powdered milk and pulses are also in short supply or have been exhausted altogether.
  The situation for women and children is desperate, because they are the most vulnerable at times of war. Sufficient water for basic needs is not available in most homes and, when available, is in short supply. The collection of water from rivers and the search for fuel put a great strain on women. All the children are at home as the schools have been closed since the start of bombardment. The team was repeatedly informed of and observed the fear felt by children at being left alone. Women bear the burden of these additional care needs. The rations available are less than half of the daily requirement of a five-year-old child, or less than one third of the daily requirement of a pregnant woman. Obviously, that is not enough for subsistence.
  The United Nations has warned of an impending disaster, in which large numbers of civilians will die needlessly from disease and, perhaps, starvation, unless a major international aid effort is undertaken. Iraq's needs are enormous. The required emergency aid has been evaluated at $23 million, and includes food, medicines, fuel for electricity generators, alum and chlorine to clean and disinfect the water supply, and new pipes and spare parts for the water system.
  The United Nations committee on sanctions against Iraq has agreed to allow unrestricted food shipments, but so far donors have pledged—and, more importantly, contributed—only $4·5 million. The west has a humanitarian responsibility to provide and to speed up that aid. It should try by every means to bring about a conclusion to that ghastly war, so that millions of innocent men, women and children are not made to endure even more suffering.
  10.41 am
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Mark Lennox-Boyd): The hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) is to be congratulated on raising this subject for debate. The contribution of the hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd) was forceful. Everyone listening to the debate will share the outrage and indignation that they expressed.
  The Government are under no illusions about the appalling nature of the Iraqi regime. We have made clear our deep concern about many aspects of Saddam Hussein's policies, and we have taken the firmest possible measures to register that fact. Our close involvement in removing Iraq from Kuwait is, as I am sure hon. Members would agree, just the latest evidence of our determination to ensure that Iraq is forced to respect internationally accepted standards of behaviour.
  I address the House against the background of a considerable amount of activity at the United Nations in New York. The United Nations Security Council is currently discussing the terms for a formal ceasefire in the Gulf, and we anticipate a resolution before Easter. I am sure that there will be tough terms in any such resolution, and it is right that they should be tough. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has made it clear that we want included in those terms a n internationally supervised destruction of Iraq's nuclear, chemical and biological facilities and weapons, and of Iraq's non-conventional and ballistic missile capabilities. Iraq must never again be in a position to threaten the security of her neighbours.
  I am sure that hon. Members will understand that, because of the deliberations, discussions and exchanges of views between the members of the Security Council in anticipation of a debate and resolution, I cannot go into much detail about what is being discussed in New York. The hon. Members for Workington and for Cynon Valley should be in no doubt of the determination being expressed by our representatives. I can say with some confidence that although the resolution may not satisfy every point raised by the hon. Member for Workington, I hope that there will be some aspects relevant to those points.
  We shall continue closely to monitor the position in Iraq. The Baghdad regime can be in no doubt about our determination to ensure that it continues to meet its international obligations. In particular, no one here, or anywhere else in the world community, will tolerate the use of chemical weapons against the people of Iraq. We shall take the severest measures if the Iraqi regime resorts to the use of those dreadful weapons.
  Mr. Bruce George: I have supported virtually everything that the Government have done during the past few months. The Select Committee on Defence visited Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Bahrain last week. Is the Minister sure that in this volatile situation—especially with the requirement that Iraq complies with the terms of the ceasefire—there are sufficient British forces remaining in the Gulf for the next few months to act as a lever? As the Minister is well aware, it is a very delicate position which still requires the threat of the use of force to ensure compliance.
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: As the hon. Gentleman is aware, and as I have already made clear, it is not our intention to have permanent security forces in the middle east.
  1110
  However, I take his point. I am satisfied that we have the capacity to deal with any possible problem, and that we can reinforce that capacity if necessary. However, we are not contemplating the need for any such activity, and I speak today against that background.
  One of the most important concerns has been Iraq's treatment of its Kurdish minorities over many years. Some 20 per cent. of the Iraqi population are Kurds, concentrated largely in the north and north-eastern areas. They are a distinct cultural and ethnic community. We have taken action whenever there has been clear evidence of human rights abuses against the Kurds. At the 1989 meeting of the United Nations Commission on Human Rights, Britain co-sponsored a resolution condemning Iraq's human rights record. This year, the commission—with our support—has appointed a special rapporteur to investigate the human rights position in Iraq. We expect the Government of Iraq to co-operate with the rapporteur in completing his report.
  Mr. Campbell-Savours: The Minister has used such phrases as, "We expect the Government of Iraq to co-operate," and, "We have supported resolutions condemning," and so on. He must know that such words mean nothing to Saddam Hussein. Helicopter gunships are being used to bomb civilian populations with all sorts of weapons. What action are the Government, the United Nations, the Americans and the coalition forces taking to ensure that that stops today, before a major battle breaks out? I am referring not to protests or to condemnations but to action.
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I should be grateful if the hon. Gentleman would allow me to make my speech in my own way. I have a passage in it that specifically deals with his question. I may not be able to satisfy him, but I will not shirk the issue.
  In 1988–89, we reacted firmly to reports that the Iraqi Government were acting systematically to quell what they considered to be action by Kurdish rebels in the north, and to relocate large numbers of Iraqi Kurds against their will. The most notorious example of Saddam Hussein's brutality against the Kurds was the use of chemical weapons at Halabja in March 1988. Many hundreds, if not thousands, of people were killed. When the massacre became known, we played a major role in securing the adoption of Secretary Council resolutions condemning Iraq's use of such weapons.
  Mr. Campbell-Savours: It may happen again tomorrow.
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I wish that the hon. Gentleman would allow me to continue with my speech.
  Britain has some of the strictest controls in the world to ensure that precursors for chemical weapons do not reach brutal regimes such as that in Iraq.
  Before I deal with the specific points raised by the hon. Member for Workington, I want to say something about past arms sales to Iraq. Since 1980 Britain has had in place clear guidelines preventing the sale of arms to Iraq. Those guidelines were further tightened in 1985 and, despite the end of the war with Iran, the Government have quite deliberately maintained the policy of not selling arms to Saddam Hussein. British weapons were not used in the invasion of Kuwait; nor are they now being used by the Iraqi regime in its brutal repression of its own people.

  1111
  The hon. Gentleman drew attention to the need for tighter arms control. We have made it clear that arms proliferation is one of the issues that need to be addressed following Iraq's expulsion from Kuwait. I know that other leading members of the allied forces in the coalition share that concern. We shall certainly be considering what more we can do to control arms exports and we have already begun discussions on the subject with our EC colleagues, the United States and the Soviet Union. It is not a matter which will be in any way overlooked in the months ahead.
  Mr. Campbell-Savours: Will there have to be legislation?
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: That will have to be considered. I have heard what the hon. Gentleman has said.
  We have, overthe years, been in contact with Kurdish groups in Iraq to exchange views with them and to hear their representations. Those contacts have continued and on 7 March the Minister of State, my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Grantham (Mr. Hogg), met a representative delegation from the Iraqi opposition, including a representative of the Kurdish minority. The hon. Member for Workington referred to Jalal Talabani, the leader of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, and we have also met and talked to him.
  We recognise the intelligent way in which the PUK approaches its problems. We welcome the desire of the Iraqi opposition to co-operate and their common platform of democracy and respect for human rights in Iraq, as well as their wish to preserve Iraq's territorial integrity and sovereignty. It is of considerable significance that they should adopt such a position. We share those goals. They would allow the Kurds in Iraq their legitimate right to self-expression, which has always been our goal and will continue to be so.
  Mr. Jeremy Corbyn: Does the Minister accept that one of the great injustices in the region since the first world war has been the treatment of the Kurdish people? It is a deeply felt belief among Kurdish people throughout the region that they have been suppressed and oppressed by the national Governments and by the ignorance of the international community. Will the Minister make it clear that the British Government accept the right of Kurdish people to their own culture, language and autonomy—it is clearly stated by the Kurdish Democratic party and the PUK—within the national frontiers of Iraq? That would go a long way towards helping people to realise that the Kurdish people have been so badly treated for so long.
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I think that everyone is aware of the interest shown by many hon. Members on both sides of the House in the Kurdish people and how they have been brought into focus as a result of the Gulf war. As I say, we share the goals of the Kurdish people to enjoy their legitimate right of self-expression. That has always been our goal, and that encompasses and underlines the hon. Gentleman's point.
  Mr. David Tredinnick: I apologise for the fact that I was not able to be here at the beginning of the debate, but on that point does my hon. Friend agree that there is considerable concern about the genocide that is
  1112
  taking place in the country? Might it be possible for some supplies to be airlifted to those areas that are suffering hardship?
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I shall deal with those points, which were raised by the hon. Member for Workington.
  The hon. Gentleman referred to the helicopter gunships that appear to be being used in Iraq in breach of the ceasefire. The terms of the present de facto ceasefire—we have not had the United Nations resolution—relate to the conflict with Iraq over Kuwait. It does not relate to the internal situation in Iraq. However, the coalition made it clear in the terms of the de facto ceasefire that fixed-wing aircraft should not be allowed to fly. As the hon. Gentleman knows, action has been taken to ensure that fixed-wing aircraft do not fly.
  However, while we deeply deplore the use of helicopter gunships, we have to accept that there is no Security Council resolution or mandate to deal with the action that the Iraqis have taken with helicopters. It is not a part of the ceasefire and it is not a part of a United Nations resolution. However distressing it is for me to say this to the hon. Gentleman, and however distressing it is for him to hear it, I think that he will accept that all of us have to recognise that a mandate from the United Nations is essential to underline and to give support to any hostile actions in the Gulf.
  Mr. Campbell-Savours: But over and above any decisions taken by the United Nations, General Schwarzkopf came to an oral and written agreement, part of which was that helicopters could be used inside Iraq only for humanitarian and internal administrative purposes. So it could be said that the war ended on the basis of an agreement which is now being breached. Therefore, irrespective of the United Nations position, surely we have some responsibility in enforcing what has already been agreed. In addition, resolution 678, which refers to peace and security in the region and the restoration thereof, is also being breached. Surely we have a responsibility to uphold that resolution without any further United Nations resolution being necessary.
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I note what the hon. Gentleman says, and I shall consider what he reports as the informal agreement of General Schwarzkopf, but I think that he will agree that we cannot make much progress in our debates here if we seek to interpret in minute detail the possible consequences of all United Nations resolutions. As I said to him, the United Nations is debating the matter and we expect further clarification of what transpires there. I shall look into the point that he makes about General Schwarzkopf's agreement, but the de facto ceasefire dealt with fixed-wing aircraft, not helicopters, which is one of the difficulties that we have to face.
  The hon. Member for Workington, I think the hon. Member for Cynon Valley, and certainly my hon. Friend the Member for Bosworth (Mr. Tredinnick) referred to food aid. We are greatly concerned about the genuine humanitarian needs of all Iraqis. We have already contributed nearly $5 million to the Red Cross Gulf appeal and nearly $1 million to the United Nations Relief and Work Agency appeal. There is clearly a role for the United Nations and its agencies, but it would be unwise for me to say too much about activity to bring humanitarian relief

  1113
  and food to the Kurdish people. We are facing a civil war, in which all attempts will be made to prevent any assistance of that kind reaching its objectives.
  Mrs. Clwyd: I raised the question of humanitarian aid and the fact that so little has been pledged. I am not asking the Government to go into detail; I am saying that the people of Iraq are suffering greatly. Is Britain prepared to make a further contribution over and above what it has already made, in particular, to aid the people in Kurdistan, whom we know are fighting a pitched battle at the moment? Surely supply lines can be opened up through Turkey. Will the Minister facilitate that?
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I would like to comment on what the hon. Lady says, but she knows that I cannot give an undertaking from the Dispatch Box to change Government policy. Certainly the issue has been raised and will be considered.
  In the last minute I shall touch on one or two other matters. An annual report was produced by the Under-Secretary-General, Mr. Ahtisaari on the present situation in Iraq, which makes the most depressing reading and is a testament to the misguided policies of Saddam Hussein. We are doing all that we can to assist, as I have said, and I have noted what the hon. Member for Cynon Valley said. However, we have also made it clear that we believe that aid should reach all areas of Iraq and we shall continue to do all that we can to alleviate the suffering of all the Iraqi people.
  In conclusion, we will shed no tears if and when Saddam Hussein is removed from power. That must be a matter for the Iraqi people, with whom we have no quarrel and whom we do not wish to suffer further under political tyranny. We wish to see a truly democratic Iraq in which the Kurdish minorities enjoy full political and human rights, and we look forward to the emergence of an Iraq that can once again be welcomed as a responsible member of the international community.

  GATT Textiles Negotiations
  11 am
  Mr. Gary Waller: I welcome my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State to the Dispatch Box to answer this brief debate. I am sure that he will appreciate that he is just the latest in a succession of his right hon. and hon. Friends who have responded to debates on textiles. The hon. Member for Bradford, West (Mr. Madden), who I hope will also catch your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, will recall that we have sat here on many occasions in past years. He may agree that one of the difficulties has been the large number of Ministers who have been responsible for the textile trade. It is certainly no disparagement of my hon. Friend to say that, by the time that they have been in office for a couple of years, they often come to understand something about the industry, but sadly we then have to start all over again.
  Many people are under the mistaken impression that the textile industry favours special pleading with the objective of retaining protection for its interests. Let me therefore make it clear that the textile industry does not want protectionism. What it does want is a market in which its products are free to compete with others from around the world. Given a fair measure of genuine competition, the products of this country's textile industry can more than hold their own anywhere.
  The term "level playing field" is a hackneyed one. Sometimes I think that our industry's managers and work force would be prepared to put up with a fairly hefty slope, provided that the goal at which they were aiming was not half the width of the one at the other end of the ground, and if some of the opposition were occasionally penalised for carrying the ball instead of kicking it as they should.
  Before I consider the issues relating to the GATT negotiations, I want to spend a moment considering the state of the textile industry generally. An important measure is the number of jobs which it provides. When I come to the House in June 1979, textiles and clothing employed some 780,000 people. This figure itself represented a considerable reduction over the previous decade from the million or so employed at the beginning of the 1970s.
  The recession of the early 1980s had a traumatic effect. By June 1983, one in three of the remaining jobs had gone, and the figure stood at a mere 512,000. Let it be said that the impact of the recession was not all bad by any means. While it is a fact that not every firm which went out of business or contracted severely in size was poorly managed or inefficient, some undoubtedly were. The ones which survived the shake-out had to use all their ingenuity and enterprise to survive. Very often they went to secure new export markets, which have stood them in good stead ever since. It was perhaps of little comfort to those who lost their jobs at that time that the shake-out made the jobs of those who remained more secure, but it was nevertheless a fact.
  We emerged with a leaner but fitter industry—one which was determined to survive in a sometimes hostile environment, for the industry has always been subject to cycles never experienced by those involved in other sectors. Confidence in the future provided a spur to investment, and productivity improved considerably. Quality had never been a problem, but in the last few years there have been quite amazing advances in our design skills as well as

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  marketing capabilities—consider, for example, the modern computerised equipment that is now used to design material.
  As a result of the industry's successes, there were as many employed in it by the autumn of 1988 as there had been in June 1983, confounding the pessimists and giving everyone hope that the future could be a good one. This gave encouragement to those seeking to recruit the brightest and most energetic young people to a career in textiles.
  Since 1989, there has been a further and most alarming series of job losses. During that year, 35,000 jobs disappeared, and a further 23,000 in 1990, so that by the end of last year the total number was only 449,000. A particularly worrying feature is that many of the companies which have been hit this time have done all the right things, assessed on any rational criteria. They have invested in the most modern plant and equipment and have become extremely efficient, but there was no way that they could compete with artificially low prices, often brought about by anti-competitive practices encouraged and promoted by overseas Governments.
  For instance, Maple Mill at Oldham, closed by Courtaulds Spinning last month, was a highly efficient manufacturer of open-end yarns, operating to the best international productivity standards. However, subsidised competition, in a climate of falling demand and world-wide overcapacity, drove yarn prices down to a point where the mill was no longer viable, despite flexible working arrangements introduced with the full cooperation of all employees.
  In general terms, the work force in the textile industry has co-operated in the necessary restructuring of the industry. I am glad to say that another firm in my constituency, Weavestyle, is doing much better and we look for great things for it in future. It is another Courtaulds subsidiary.
  The distortions in the international textile and clothing trade take many forms. Some activities make it impossible for United Kingdom producers to compete on equal terms within the market place. Others are intended to create barriers to our exporters by protecting a home market against imported goods in ways that are outrageous by any standards.
  One of the worst offenders, in terms of its effect on our industry, is the United States. That country's purchasing power and its preference for quality goods, which we manufacture, make the severe restrictions placed upon imports from Britain especially unacceptable, bearing in mind the attacks by America on the unfair trading practices of some far eastern countries. Import duties of over 36 per cent. on wool cloth represent a terrific hurdle for our exporters, who see their United States counterparts faced with only a 14 per cent. European Community tariff to gain entry to the enticing British home market. If reciprocity is to be our goal, as I believe it should be, then that is as good a point as any at which to start.
  South Korea is one of the fastest-growing economies, not only around the Pacific rim but in global terms. In the past, it has used high tariffs and quotas as alternative methods of excluding imports that would otherwise enjoy strong demand from its increasingly prosperous people. In
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  many instances, our protests have ultimately proved successful. Now Korea has announced a £2·5 billion subsidy scheme for its textile and clothing industries.
  In India, millions of people live in poverty. Like many other states, India benefits from the recognition accorded to that factor under the terms of the multi-fibre arrangement, which are intended to assist its textile industry—along with others on the Indian subcontinent—to gain a fair share of the world market. Nevertheless, India too has a relatively well-off middle class, which no doubt wants a greater choice of goods. It does not have that choice, because India prohibits imports of textiles and clothing if similar goods are produced domestically, and charges penal tariffs of 200 per cent. or more on the remainder.
  Nor is India by any means unique: other developing countries impose duties of more than 100 per cent., and many also have restrictive licensing schemes. Unacceptably high tariffs remain the favoured protectionist device of several countries whose economies could never be considered anything but highly developed. Canada and Australia fall into that category; yet some Australian tariffs exceed 50 per cent.
  Turkish textile and clothing producers may express themselves delighted by the favours that they receive from their Government, but the many British workers who have lost their jobs because their employers closed down as a result of their inability to compete with subsidised Turkish goods feel rather differently about the matter. Among the subsidies enjoyed by Turkish firms are supplies of cotton at prices below those that can be obtained on world markets. Meanwhile, importers—including British companies—are faced with a barrage of duties, including a requirement to contribute to the state housing fund. Although all those subsidies and barriers contravene Turkey's associate treaty status with the European Community, the country seeks yet more favoured treatment from the Twelve.
  As a state trading country, China sells textiles and clothing at prices that bear no relation to production costs. Former communist countries in eastern Europe, which are only now moving away from state control, operate in much the same way. Their economies are usually fragile, and I believe as much as anyone else—perhaps more than many—that they should have our support, but not at the expense of the United Kingdom textile sector.
  Subsidised exports are another favourite ploy. In some cases, developing countries provide favoured tax treatment for export sales, while many far eastern countries link their currencies artificially to the US dollar, keeping them undervalued and so making their exports more competitive. In Taiwan and Japan, brand names may be registered that give a false impression of United Kingdom origin. I know that, because I have seen the goods in Keighley, where they have openly been sent for processing.
  Furthermore, I am afraid that even some Community members—while expressing their commitment to Community policies, and saying how communautaire they are—are less than scrupulous. Spain and Italy continue to subsidise their industries, while some Belgian firms have not been made to comply with European Court judgments requiring the repayment of illegal subsidies.
  Let me turn now to the GATT negotiations themselves. Of course I welcome their resumption following agreement between the participants that talks on agriculture should

  1117
  again proceed. However, continued further progress remains uncertain, depending essentially on United States congressional acceptance of the presidential plea for an extension of the so-called fast-track procedure. The fact that the American textile industry and other interests are opposed to the Uruguay round will put pressure on Congressmen, and the outcome cannot be precisely predicted.
  Our ultimate objective must undoubtedly be an agreement, as a result of the Uruguay round, which provides for greatly strengthened GATT rules and disciplines to apply to international trade in textiles and clothing. This means that we need not just good intentions—those have been expressed many times in the past—but mechanisms to deal with the practices that I have described. The British textile industry supports the European Community's call for reductions in tariff and non-tariff barriers; for prohibition of all subsidies that distort trade, including the supply of raw materials I o an industry at artificially low prices; for tougher rules to prevent the blatant theft of designs and brand names; for realistic anti-dumping rules that take account of the complex nature of the industry; and for a selective safeguards article, with no automatic compensation requirement.
  Some progress has been made in negotiating those strengthened rules and disciplines, but much more remains to be done before the round is completed. I do not want now to consider the proposals in greater depth, because the time required to reach agreement will, I think, ensure that we have opportunities for further debate in the future. My priority at this stage is to ensure that we progress further in a way that avoids unnecessary uncertainty, which is the undoubted enemy of all successful trade and commerce.
  It is generally accepted—even among developing countries—that the multi-fibre arrangement, which is a derogation from GATT, should be phased out over 10 or 11 years. However, the integration of the textile and clothing trade into normal GATT rules demands the simultaneous achievement and implementation of strengthened rules and disciplines. Some progress has been made in agreeing the details of implementation, but several important issues remain to he settled, including the crucial need for a mechanism enabling the phasing-out process to be suspended for any country that fails to comply with its obligations. It is impossible to exaggerate the importance of the direct link between the phasing out of the MFA, and the introduction of strengthened GATT rules and disciplines. There have been far too many examples of loopholes being exploited in the past.
  If extension of the fast track is agreed, it will be for a period allowing negotiatons to continue until 1 March 1993—two years from now. Of course, not only the Government and the Community but also the industry share the hope that the Uruguay round will be concluded long before then—preferably before the end of this year, if that is at all possible. Nevertheless, it may be the beginning of 1993, or even later, before the round is completed, ratified and brought into effect, given the procedural steps required in the United States in particular. Thus, it will be necessary to extend the current term of the multi-fibre arrangement, due to expire on 31 July 1991, together with the Community's bilateral agreements which expire on 31 December, excepting those for China, which continue until
  1118
  the end of next year. Agreement needs to be reached as soon as possible on the length of the extension to avoid damaging uncertainty for all concerned.
  Currently, the participants are considering the length of time for which the MFA and the bilateral agreements should be extended. I understand that most Community member states favour the extension of the MFA for 17 months, to the end of 1992, with the possibility of a further extension if the Uruguay round is not ready for implementation. The industry supports that approach. Many developing countries, too, take a similar view. The United States of America—I point out this fact to the Minister—has proposed an extension for 29 months, to the end of 1993.
  Another important point is that most countries envisage a straightforward extension of the existing terms. In contrast, I gather from the Minister for Trade's response to my parliamentary question on 20 March that the British Government continue to argue for an extension of the MFA for only five months, to the end of this year. In practice, that would have no effect, since the bilateral agreements continue until then, in any event. It is impossible for GATT to be ready for implementation at that stage. The Government evidently accept that extension of the MFA for a further 21 months to the end of 1992 may then be necessary, but they argue that the terms of the MFA and the bilateral agreements should be modified for the additional year.
  There are several reasons why it would be mistaken to weaken the terms for this further year. First and foremost, it would provide additional concessions to exporting countries, whether or not they were willing to play their part in contributing to strengthening the rules and disciplines that I regard as critical. Secondly, it would increase the base level from which the phasing out of the MFA will be applied, to the obvious detriment of the United Kingdom industry. Thirdly, it could only cause the most damaging uncertainty, not only to manufacturers and processors but to retailers and importers, as well as exporters overseas. We need advance knowledge of the terms on which trade will take place.
  As for retailers and distributors, it is particularly significant that senior management of the Littlewoods Organisation, whom I met on Thursday of last week, are equally keen to see a simple extension of the MFA for a reasonable period. I received a short note from that organisation this morning which reads:
  "We are concerned that the continuing dispute over agricultural issues may result in the MFA not being replaced when it lapses in July 1991. This is already creating uncertainty and disruption in our forward planning with suppliers for the coming autumn season. We are therefore asking the European Commission as a matter of urgency to give a firm undertaking that, until a new MFA is in place, they will continue to operate the present Arrangement"—
  I stress those words—
  "and the specific quotas established under it, thus guaranteeing continuity of supply."
  It is rare in this industry for all parties to agree in that way. It suggests that it would not be in the interests of consumers to cause turmoil by increasing uncertainty. Finally, a short-term approach would mean duplication of the MFA extension negotiations and a proliferation of complex bilateral negotiations, just at the time when negotiators world wide should be concentrating on a successful conclusion to the Uruguay round.

  1119
  The Government's position regarding the United Kingdom's approach to the interim period is curiously incomprehensible. It is at variance with our European Community partners, with the United States, with most developing countries, with the British apparel, knitting and textile industries and with United Kingdom importers and overseas exporters. The extension of the MFA does not mean that there would be a standstill, as some fear. The current bilateral arrangements incorporate progressive increases in quotas, which could presumably be carried over into 1992. Thus, the momentum of liberalisation, to which the Government are committed, would undoubtedly be maintained.
  On the question of the length of the phasing-out period for the MFA, last year my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry first suggested that it should be between five and seven years. His approach did not endear him to the industry. Eventually, under pressure from the industry and several of his hon. Friends, he accepted that 10 years might not be inappropriate. I hope that this time he will see the logic of the case and will amend his position rather than be thought to be falling into line involuntarily while alienating the industry.
  After all, despite the contraction to which I referred at the beginning of my speech, the textiles and clothing industry remains one of the United Kingdom's largest sources of employment. Its work force of nearly 450,000, located largely in the north, the midlands and Scotland, is well placed to play a significant role in determining whether my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State will still be at the Dispatch Box after the next election. It is vital, therefore, that the Government should be seen to be fighting their corner and working for the survival of a vibrant textile industry that is, has been and certainly can continue to be one of our best exporters—a success in the marketplace of the world.
  11.27 am
  Mr. Max Madden rose——
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker): Does the hon. Member for Bradford, West (Mr. Madden) have the Minister's consent to speak in the debate?
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Industry and Community Affairs (Mr. Edward Leigh)indicated assent.
  Mr. Madden: I congratulate the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Waller) on his success in obtaining this Adjournment debate. He, like I, has the honour to represent a constituency in west Yorkshire. I wish to emphasise the importance of the clothing and textile industries to west Yorkshire.
  A recent study to investigate the economic prospects of the west Yorkshire region in the 1990s highlighted the importance of the textile and clothing industries to the regional economy. The study was commissioned by west Yorkshire's five district councils and was undertaken by the university of Louvain in Belgium and the United Kingdom's Cambridge Economic Consultants.
  The main points highlighted by the study were the increased and national vulnerability of textiles and clothing due to the shift of production towards south and east Europe and south-west Asia; the continuing threats to
  1120
  the industries caused by exchange rate variations and subsidised competitors; the difficulties caused by the false labelling of imported materials and products and the dumping of Turkish acrylic yarn; and the continuing concentration of production to maximise technical economies of scale, with a consequent reduction in jobs.
  The consultants also point out that textiles and clothing are more than twice as important, in employment terms, to west Yorkshire than they are to the Community as a whole and more than three times more important than within the other industrial regions examined by the study. The west Yorkshire region was included in the European regional development funds' non-quota textile crisis aid programme, but it is considered that there is increased need for measures which could more directly assist the restructuring of key sectors, if the region is to be able to compete more successfully in the single market.
  The hon. Member for Keighley rehearsed arguments that we have advanced in defence of the British textile and clothing industry over many years. He came here in 1979; I had the honour of first coming here in 1974. It was clear then that the industries were in decline. That decline has intensified during the last 10 years. In the city of Bradford, 14,000 people are directly employed in textiles and clothing. The livelihoods of thousands more, and their families, depend upon companies that supply goods and services to the textile and clothing industries.
  We are in the depths of a very deep recession. Certainly it looks as bad as anything that we experienced in the early 1980s. Unemployment has risen sharply. The employment figures in the wool textile sector in west Yorkshire show an 18 per cent. fall between 1988 and 1990. Every part of that industry, including combing, woollen spinning and worsted, has had reductions of more than 20 per cent. Production and export are down. The extension of the MFA for at least 17 months, as the hon. Member for Keighley argued, should be only part of an urgent strategy that is vital if the British textile and clothing industries are to survive and if regions such as west Yorkshire which are dependent on those industries are to return to economic prosperity.
  I pay tribute to my union, the Transport and General Workers Union, and to its national secretary, Mr. Peter Booth, who has been actively promoting the argument for a strategy for our industries. The cuts in interest rate have been extremely welcome, but we must remember that the average company in west Yorkshire employs 50 people. Such companies are least able to afford to invest in new technology, research and development.
  We should also remember that high exchange rates create difficulties for the industries that we represent, particularly as many low-cost producers link their currencies to the dollar, often at artificially low rates. That gives them an extremely competitive edge and often an unfair economic advantage over home producers. We must also consider training. We welcome the initiatives taken by the industry recently, but in Bradford we have the prospect of losing 600 training places in the coming year. That is scandalous, given the difficulties that the United Kingdom will have to face.
  I urge the Minister to listen to the points that have been raised in this and many earlier debates. Our constituents who work in textiles and clothing are often mystified about the Government's policy on those vital industries. The Government's view often appears to be grudging. Today, as the hon. Member for Keighley has said, they are

  1121
  completely isolated. I urge them at least to accept publicly and quickly in the talks immediately after Easter that 17 months must be the minimum. We want the MFA to continue for at least 10 years. We want the rest of the strategy to which I have referred today to be put in place as soon as possible to assist the industry nationally and regionally.
  The Government keep saying that their aim is the liberalisation of trade for the benefit of consumers. I remind the Minister that textile workers are also consumers. If one follows the Government's policy to its logical conclusion, the prospect is that the British textile and clothing industry will be wiped out. British consumers will then depend totally on imported textiles and clothing and will become the victims of whatever prices overseas exporters wish to charge. None of us wants that to happen. Our constituents who work in these important industries deserve better.
  11.33 am
  Mr. David Tredinnick: In supporting my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Mr. Waller) and the hon. Member for Bradford, West (Mr. Madden), I wish to draw the attention of my hon. Friend the Minister to two specific points. The first relates to the education of people going into the knitting industry, which has been seriously affected. The second relates to Chinese imports.
  Hinckley college, with its internationally renowned textiles department, is in my constituency. Sadly, there have recently been seven redundancies at that college. That clearly demonstrates the difficulties that local businesses in the area are facing and the specific impact of the high number of imports causing serious problems to which other hon. Members have referred. In the past two years, imports have increased to represent 50 per cent. of the goods available on the market. That increase has brought about the need to reduce staff in one of the key teaching establishments in the industry in the country. I ask my hon. Friend the Minister to bear that in mind.
  My second point concerns imports from China, which were mentioned briefly by my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley. When I first had the honour of coming to the House to serve my constituents, in 1987, I chose as the subject of my maiden speech Chinese imports, particularly the importation of cheap Chinese underwear. I told the Minister at the time that it was a critical matter. Yet today we are still facing that problem; if anything, it has got worse. The Chinese knicker market is seriously undermining our industry. In 1990 imports of Chinese knickers surged to 88 million pairs at an average price of only 19p a pair, while United Kingdom production in knitting establishments fell by a forecast 8·7 per cent. to 59 million pairs at an average price of £1·25 a pair. How on earth can we compete?
  I say to my hon. Friend the Minister that we need the MFA to be extended for 10 years or a replacement agreement which will guarantee a level playing field, as I believe that to be essential.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: I apologise to the hon. Gentleman for incorrectly identifying him when I called him to speak.
  11.36 am
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Industry and Consumer Affairs (Mr. Edward Leigh): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley
  1122
  (Mr. Waller) on securing this debate on the GATT textiles negotiations. I know that he and many other hon. Members take a close interest in this subject, which is so important for the textiles manufacturers in their constituencies. They have once more made their concern clear this morning. I was particularly impressed by the knowledge of my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley about the world trading system and his attack on subsidies and controls in the world. The House is grateful to him.
  Let me say at once to the hon. Member for Bradford, West (Mr. Madden), whom I thank for taking part in the debate, and to my hon. Friend the Member for Bosworth (Mr. Tredinnick), that the Government share their interest and concern. We are in no doubt about the importance of securing a satisfactory overall settlement to the Uruguay round and, within that, a satisfactory conclusion to the GATT textiles negotiations and agreement on the phasing out of the multi-fibre arrangement. I shall return to that in more detail towards the end of my speech. Ministers have frequently made clear their commitment on those points, both in the House and outside.
  The House may find it helpful if I outline where matters stand on the round in general. Its precise future is at present uncertain. Although a basis for resumed negotiations has been agreed and President Bush has asked Congress for the necessary two-year extension of the United States' fast-track negotiating authority, Congress has until 1 June to vote on his request. This process of securing extension is at present a matter for the United States but the outcome is of vital interest to us all.
  If the round is to survive, it is important that all parties show a commitment to the negotiations. The world trading system urgently needs a non-inflationary boost of the sort that will be brought about by increased trade flows resulting from a successful conclusion of the Uruguay round. We need to preserve the momentum of the substantial progress made at Brussels on a number of issues, not least textiles, and to prevent domestic political issues and bilateral trading pressures from undoing the good work that has been done so far.
  For these reasons, the Government believe that the round needs to be concluded quickly. Without an agreement this year, there is a danger that the round will drift, and that hard decisions will be postponed until after the United States elections in 1992. Nowhere is the urgency greater than in textiles. The Government have always made clear their conviction that liberalisation of trade in textiles will be to the benefit of consumers and the United Kingdom economy as a whole. We want to see it brought about in the context of a successful overall conclusion to the Uruguay round. Liberalisation should take place over a transitional period, the length of which must strike the right balance between on the one hand giving industry further time to adjust—I take into account the points made by my hon. Friends and the hon. Member for Bradford,West—and on the other hand not delaying unduly the benefits of liberalisation.
  The negotiating mandate agreed by all parties at the outset of the Uruguay round set the objective of returning trade in textiles to GATT on the basis of strengthened rules and disciplines. The United Kingdom and the European Community have made it clear that we want commitments from other countries to accept adequate strengthening and to improve market access so as, among other things, to provide fairer conditions for trade in textiles and clothing. Therefore, whilst it is essential that

  1123
  the United Kingdom and the EC continue to show themselves committed to ending the MFA, it must be on the basis of a corresponding commitment by all other parties to strengthened rules and disciplines. That is a vital point which, I hope, will reassure my hon. Friend.
  Although the GATT ministerial meeting in Brussels last December failed to reach agreement, good progress was made in some areas, including textiles. Had the overall negotiating climate been more favourable, an agreement looked attainable to phase out the MFA over about 10 years. Ideally, we would have preferred a shorter period and others would have preferred a longer one. However, I know that a 10-year phase-out is broadly acceptable to the United Kingdom industry.
  A key aspect of those negotiations and one which rightly receives much attention, not least from hon. Members, is the linkage that I have mentioned between progress in phasing out the MFA and in the strengthening of GATT rules and disciplines. Good progress was made here in Brussels as well.
  Agreement was emerging on a system to monitor commitments by others to strengthened rules and disciplines and much more open markets; on a new and more workable GATT safeguard mechanism against surges in imports for use once the textiles transitional period was over; and on a specific selective textiles safeguard mechanism for use during the course of the transitional period.
  Other prospective benefits to the textiles industry would include specific protection for textiles designs under a trade-related intellectual property agreement, increased access to overseas markets through reductions in the high tariff and other trade barriers operated by many of our competitors—a point mentioned today—and more satisfactory rules governing unfair trade practices such as dumping and subsidies. I know that hon. Members and the United Kingdom industry share our determination to secure improvements in all those areas.
  As to the immediate future, the quota restrictions under the MFA expire at the end of this year but the protocol itself, which gives the MFA legal force, expires in July. Had the round concluded last December, as planned, there was a good prospect of agreement by all to a five-month extension, so that in January 1992 we could have moved
  1124
  smoothly into the transitional period over which the MFA would be phased out. But with the lack of an agreement at Brussels, this timetable now seems much less secure.
  Hon. Members have made clear the uncertainty this causes. We understand industry's and trader's concern, and we wish to avoid a legal vacuum pending the conclusion of the Uruguay round. Other member states and other GATT parties which import and export, share our view. All parties are now giving thought to the question of extending the MFA pending a settlement of the Uruguay round.
  However, apart from a common desire to avoid uncertainty and a legal vacuum, the interests of the participants in the negotiations are, of course, as one might imagine, fairly diverse. It is therefore not possible yet to be certain of the terms on which any extension might be agreed, or its duration, but we shall push for interim arrangements to be agreed in good time before the MFA expires.
  As to the key point, the length of the extension, a range of possibilities is currently being canvassed amongst GATT members. At one end of the spectrum, the United States—with little or no support, as has been mentioned today—favours a 29-month extension, to December 1993. At the other end of the spectrum, we and some of our EC partners—Germany and the Netherlands—can see merit in a five-month extension. This would be consistent with our target of concluding the round as fast as possible while leaving open the possibility of a further 12-month extension thereafter if progress were to prove slower than we hoped. Some other EC and GATT members are in favour of the middle ground—a one-step extension of 17 months, to the end of next year.
  As yet, no agreement on the point has emerged within the EC itself. However, the Commission, as a lead negotiator, has requested a degree of flexibility, not least because the supplying countries have yet to give their views and are unlikely to do so before mid-May. The Government recognise that there may be a need for flexibility. We shall continue to discuss the issues with our EC partners, looking for a balance to be struck between providing a reasonable period of certainty for the industry and traders, while not sending a pessimistic signal about the speed at which the round as a whole can be brought to a successful conclusion.
  I hope that what I have said today strikes a reasonable balance and will satisfy hon. Members.

  Royal Assent
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker): I have to notify the House, in accordance with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that the Queen has signified her Royal Assent to the following Act:
  Community Charges (General Reduction) Act 1991.

  Rochdale Social Services Department
  11.46 am
  Mr. Jim Callaghan: I wish to assure you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and the Minister from the outset that my sole purpose in raising the subject of the alleged satanic abuse case on the Langley estate in my constituency is not to rake over the dying embers of an unfortunate and tragic case, to apportion blame or to citicise agencies involved in the case. That has already been done by higher authorities. It is my wish to learn from those tragic mistakes in an effort to seek solutions that could prevent anything similar ever happening again to parents and children in the United Kingdom.
  It is important to remember that those who have a responsibility to protect children at risk, such as social workers, health visitors, the police and doctors, have in the past been criticised for failure to act in sufficient time to take adequate steps to protect children who are in danger. It is sometimes difficult to tread the line between taking action too soon and not taking it soon enough to protect the children. Effective child protection depends on the skill of professional staff in all the relevant disciplines. To understand the problems that beset the professional staff in the social services department in Rochdale, it is necessary to know the background to this tragic case.
  In November 1989, teachers at a school on the Langley estate in Middleton drew the attention of social workers to the disturbed, withdrawn and strange behaviour of a six-year-old boy. He talked to teachers about ghosts and a ghost family who were part of his life. The social workers to whom the case was referred were so concerned about the boy's behaviour and the strange stories that further investigation was made of the family background. That revealed that the boy's father had spoken of ghosts in his previous home. The social workers therefore took the boy, his 11-year-old sister and two other boys into care and made them wards of court. The parents were denied access to the children.
  Altogether, a total of 20 children on the estate were taken into care because of their association with the original family. They were taken after dawn swoops by police and social workers. The social workers were convinced that they had unearthed a ritual abuse group on the estate. On 14 September 1990, a special meeting of the social services committee in Rochdale supported the action of the director of social services and invited the Secretary of State for Social Services to ask the social services inspectorate to confirm that all the council's policies and procedures on child abuse were in accordance with Government guidance.
  The inspectorate reviewed a sample of 30 cases—none connected with the ones in court. It found fault with some of the department's procedures, which Rochdale social services committee promised to rectify—it is now carrying out that promise. The inspectorate also noted that the local authority had been community charge-capped in 1990 and its budget reduced by £8 million. Accordingly, the council had asked the social services committee to make proposals for saving of £1·9 million from its current budget. A sum of £550,000 had been proposed as a target saving on staffing, with a freeze on staff recruitment. I believe that that proposal should be deeply regretted.
  When the case was heard in court earlier this year by Mr. Justice Douglas Brown, he enabled the public to learn

  1127
  the facts of the case. By working carefully through the facts he gave a clear, sober account of an extraordinary chain of events.
  Mr. Justice Douglas Brown found that the accusations of ritual abuse were unproven, that there was no evidence of drugs connected with any abuse and no evidence that anyone was missing, mutilated or murdered. He emphasised that the staff of the Rochdale social services department were decent people, not heartless or ruthless, who had acted throughout with the children's best interests at heart. However, they had made mistakes, and criticisms were justified.
  The judge said that the social workers were obsessive and mistaken in their belief that a six-year-old boy's ghostly fantasies were real. He accused the social workers of serious errors of judgment because they based their decision almost entirely on the evidence of a disturbed boy who had been fed on a rich diet of utterly frightening and unsuitable videos, such as "Nightmare on Elm Street" and "The Evil Dead".
  The judge criticised the dawn raids by police and social workers who removed children from their homes and families, which caused the children to be distressed and frightened. He also criticised the procedures employed by police and social workers in their video interview policies. He said that social workers should have carried out the recommendations made by Lord Justice Butler-Sloss following the Cleveland case. Those recommendations had not been carried out and Mr. Justice Douglas Brown recommended that certain lessons could be learnt from the Rochdale case. He recommended:
  "There should be intensive training for social workers who have interviewed children on ritual or sexual abuse … children should not be removed from their homes in suspected ritual abuse before expert advice is taken."
  He recommended that, if children were taken, it should happen at the end of the school day. He also recommended that the affidavits from all parties should be balanced and fair and that all interviews with children in such cases should be videotaped. He criticised the policy of the Greater Manchester police of not videotaping the interviews with the children.
  Mr. Gordon Littlemore, an honourable and dedicated man, the then director of social services in Rochdale resigned 24 hours after that judgment, and after praising his staff as
  "committed and skilled workers who acted in good faith in what they believed was the best interests of the children".
  I believe that Mr. Littlemore is an honourable man of great principle and integrity. He was tragically caught between the demands for the safety of the children, the rights of the parents, unnerving stories of satanic ritual and a lack of adequate financial resources.
  Mr. John Pearce, chief executive of Rochdale borough, said that Mr. Littlemore's resignation had been received with deep sorrow and regret. He described Mr. Littlemore as a decent man with principles who had served Rochdale's social services department loyally for over 17 years. Mr. Pearce acknowledged that the authority had made mistakes and that the case was painful and a traumatic experience for all concerned. He said:
  "We accept in full what the judge said"
  and added that the mistakes would be rectified as soon as possible. I have been informed that all the recommendations of the inspectors and of Mr. Justice Douglas Brown
  1128
  will be implemented as soon as possible by the Rochdale authority and that an assistant director for families will be appointed by the authority.
  Mr. Pearce also said that the social services inspectorate had offered to study the report with senior officers of the department of social services to identify and rectify any deficiencies of procedure and practice to ensure that appropriate action was taken and to tackle issues concerning parents' rights. I believe that the law was equally incompetent, both in the length of the process and in the initial draconian order, in denying the right of parents to visit their children. The problem now is to learn from those mistakes.
  The present Minister for Health, the hon. Member for Surrey, South-West (Mrs. Bottomley), said as a Back Bencher in a superb speech on child abuse as early as 26 July 1985:
  "There have been errors of judgment and it is essential that lessons be learnt from those."
  She went on:
  "Rather than simply adding to the sensationalistic and censorious responses to these recent appalling tragedies, for which simplistic solutions are too often proposed and social workers are more often than not used as whipping boys, I should like to redress the balance and see the problem of child abuse in a clearer context".
  She went on to describe the parents involved in child abuse cases and said:
  "The parents are more likely to be unemployed, and nearly two thirds are in receipt of supplementary benefit … There are many … stress factors on the families. They include marital discord in virtually half the cases, unemployment, and financial problems".—[Official Report, 26 July 1985; Vol. 83, c. 1423–24.]
  I could not agree more.
  On 9 July 1975, I tried in an Adjournment debate to draw attention to the social problems on the Langley estate, where the present case arose. In April 1990, in another Adjournment debate, I again raised the social problems affecting that estate, which is a Manchester overspill estate of about 4,500 dwellings built in the 1950s and catering for a population of about 25,000 people.
  I said in the 1975 debate that the estate was seen as a transit camp, was unrelated to its neighbouring communities and was remote from the Manchester authority to which it belonged. I gave examples of the social problems there and said that any examination of the referrals to the social services department in Rochdale would show that 50 per cent. of them came from Langley and that, generally speaking, 75 per cent. of referrals on child care and family problems came from that estate.
  I said:
  "Langley is an area of social deprivation with a need for community assistance from central Government funds."—[Official Report, 9 July 1975; Vol. 895, c. 707.]
  However, the social problems on the estate worsened after my debate in 1975, despite my pleas for help. In the 1991 labour census the unemployment figure for men on the estate was 43 per cent. Since then, unemployment has worsened.
  On 23 April 1990 I again raised on the Floor of the House the many problems facing Langley estate. I said that more than 1,000 houses built in the 1950s were now bricked and boarded up and that 1,005 other houses were unfit for human habitation because of structural defects. I fought for funds from the Estate Action moneys and lobbied Ministers. I quoted the report of Professor Peter Townsend of Bristol university, entitled "Inner City Deprivation, Premature Deaths" which mentioned the

  1129
  high death rate on Langley estate. I described Langley as a dream turned into a nightmare with devastating and desperate problems—a lost cause, a vandalised ghetto of sickness and despair.
  I am glad to say that, on asking for a second time earlier this year, my prayers were answered. The Government have now agreed to find £13·2 million to repair property on the estate over a period of three years. I congratulate them on giving that cash. However, that is for bricks and building materials only and extra Government money is needed to help eliminate the dreadful social deprivation on the estate. Many children there are living in families who are experiencing extreme poverty. Additional Government resources are needed to meet the recommendations of the social services inspectors report and the judge's finding on the social services department in Rochdale.
  I ask the Minister—nay, I beg the Minister—for extra cash to fund Rochdale's social services department to enable it to do its job properly and to develop a support programme for vulnerable children and families in the area. What can be learnt from the Cleveland and Rochdale cases to help social workers elsewhere in the United Kingdom? In 1985, the hon. Member for Surrey, South-West said:
  "None of us can fail to have powerful professional, political and above all personal reactions when things go wrong."
  She urged the then Minister to consider
  "the national outrage that is felt when disasters occur and to make every effort to learn from the mistakes".
  Social workers are always vulnerable because of widespread variations in practice, and one disaster inevitably results in social workers being pilloried. The hon. Member for Surrey, South-West continued:
  "Few people appreciate the complexity of the job that a social worker has to do. Such a worker has to make life and death decisions, he or she has to decide whether or not to place a child on the child abuse register, whether or not to seek a care or supervision order: or whether to go for wardship. The social worker has to decide whether or not the child should be removed from its home or if it should be fostered or adopted, or whether rehabilitation should be attempted."—[Official Report, 26 July 1985; Vol. 83, c. 1425–28.]
  I could not have put it better. In the light of the Minister's words, spoken so many years ago, it would appear that we require our social workers to have the wisdom of Solomon. Is the Minister convinced that social workers are adequately qualified, trained and experienced and properly paid to do their existing job? If he is not, what will he do to rectify the situation?
  Following the Rochdale case, we may ask, what is the impact of videotape on young children? The children in this case watched films such as "Nightmare on Elm Street" and "The Evil Dead" until 1 o'clock in the morning—no wonder they were disturbed. Questions must be asked about parents who allow young children to watch such films. Those films are disturbing, sadistic and full of horror. Bringing the cinema into the home has heralded the end of the automatic protection of children from unsuitable material. Has not the time come when the Minister or the Government should seriously consider whether films whose raison d'etre is violence should be passed by the British Board of Film Classification for release as videotapes?
  Ritual and satanic abuse first gained media attention following the imprisonment of nine adults in Nottingham in February 1989, who pleaded guilty to 53 charges of incest, cruelty and indecent assault after 25 children were
  1130
  taken into care. There now appear to be differences between the police and the social services department in Nottingham about whether the children were ritualistically abused.
  We now have allegations of ritual abuse of children in Manchester and the Orkneys. Does ritual abuse exist in an organised form in the United Kingdom? If it does not, there must be reassessment of interview techniques and the mechanisms by which children are taken into care. A great deal more needs to be found out about the scale of the problem—if, indeed, such a problem exists. A Government-backed investigation into the extent of ritual or satanic abuse nationally is therefore required.
  Just as Cleveland became a catalyst for a serious debate about the prevalence of sexual abuse, so the Rochdale case could launch a serious examination of ritual abuse by Government agencies. The controversy over satanic abuse must not be allowed to continue and become a distraction from the reality of the emotional and physical abuse of some children in which cruelty, neglect, incest and rape take place.
  We must continue to learn lessons from the serious cases which arise, as in Cleveland and Rochdale. We must ensure that the law works well. We must produce a much clearer and much more consistent legal framework within which child care practitioners can operate, as strong feelings and human emotions are closely involved. We must make absolutely sure that official guidance is good. We must have sound legal foundations on which we can continue to develop the procedural framework for dealing with child abuse. The time is now appropriate for a much more comprehensive review of that material, to bring the whole lot up to date and to make it as sensible but as direct as possible. In raising those issues, I hope that the Minister will take note of them when drafting the new Children Bill, which is to be published later this year.
  12.10 pm
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Mr. Stephen Dorrell): I congratulate the hon. Member for Heywood and Middleton (Mr. Callaghan) on his speech, which demonstrated his long-standing and keen interest in this subject. He quoted correspondence going back 16 years which showed that he has consistently taken an interest in social work issues in general and, in particular, in those on the Langley estate in his constituency. Those issues are too broadly based to be purely the responsibility of the Department of Health.
  The hon. Gentleman obliquely acknowledged the long-standing concern and dedicated interest in this subject of my hon. Friend the Minister for Health. Her experience is unusual for a Minister in that, in social work in general and child care social work in particular, it goes back to before her time in the House. My hon. Friend is detained elsewhere this morning. If she had been here, the debate between her and the hon. Gentleman would have contained an unusually high amount of information. I do not pretend to have the knowledge or experience of my hon. Friend in this field, but I shall seek to answer as well as I can some of the points made by the hon. Gentleman.
  I have seen the letter written by the hon. Member for Heywood and Middleton following the judgment in the wardship case. That letter called for a public inquiry to examine further the lessons to be learnt from the Rochdale experience. However, the Government are not attracted to

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  the public inquiry route, broadly because we do not think that at this stage a public inquiry would advance either the understanding of the facts or the application of the lessons from those facts.
  A public inquiry is established for two related purposes. First, it inquires into what happens, and therefore its establishment implies a lack of knowledge about the facts. Secondly, it seeks to draw from the facts of experience lessons for the application and development of future policy.
  As I have said, there is no longer a serious lack of knowledge about what happened in Rochdale; nor are we short of lessons to be learnt from the facts as we know them. The agenda set by the social services inspectorate report published last autumn and, possibly, by some of the judge's comments in his judgment, and our current understanding of the facts, are sufficient to keep us busy and to ensure that our time is not wasted in learning the lessons of Rochdale and applying them there and elsewhere.
  No one looking at the way in which the Government have handled the case since it came to public notice can doubt our commitment to establish the facts, learn from them and apply the lessons as extensively as possible. That commitment is fired and driven by the enthusiasm of my hon. Friend the Minister for Health, who, as I have said, has great experience and a deep understanding of the subject.
  The hon. Gentleman quoted from a speech made by my hon. Friend in 1985. That speech made manifest her understanding of the subject, and in it she laid down the guiding priority for any discussion on the matter. It was that we must not fall into the trap of sensationalising what happens, which is the practice of the tabloid press. We must conduct a calm and deliberate investigation, apply the lessons and try to ensure that people do not repeat the mistakes of the past. It is fitting that it should be my hon. Friend the Minister for Health who has responsibility for implementing the Children Act 1989, which grew at least in part from the experiences in Cleveland, in which the hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Mr. Bell) was significantly involved.
  The hon. Member for Heywood and Middleton asked me to comment on the lessons that we have to learn and on the application of resources for the training of social workers. I shall say something about that particularly in the context of Rochdale because there is no doubt about its importance there, and action has already been taken. The child care training support programme which began in 1989 and which is 70 per cent. grant-aided by central Government, is a reflection of the importance that we attach to training social workers in general, and in particular those in child care.
  The Department has allocated a grant of £51,000 to the Rochdale social services department for the training of social workers working with families. The Rochdale department proposes to spend £158,000 a year as part of that programme. The programme includes £22,730 for training staff in child protection work, including sexual abuse, and the balance will go to general child care training. The 1991–92 programme envisages expenditure of £137,000, including £35,000 for training staff in the provisions of the Children Act. The Department has also
  1132
  made a grant of nearly £84,000 towards that expenditure. The programme will benefit 919 staff in general child care training, and 718 staff will receive training specifically under the Children Act programme.
  I hope that that information will help to answer the hon. Gentleman's proper question about what we are doing to train social workers. He is legitimately anxious that there should be proper training and that the lessons from Cleveland and Rochdale are learnt not only in those areas but in other social services departments. That training programme is part of our commitment.
  Mr. Callaghan: I thank the Minister for his information about the cash that is to be allocated to Rochdale. However, how much will be given to the training of social workers nationally?
  Mr. Dorrell: I can give the hon. Gentleman the quantum of our training commitment since the establishment of the child care training support programme. The Government announced the scheme on 6 July 1988 and the making of a grant in 1989–90 of £7 million in support of £10 million for the training of social services staff involved in child care. Therefore, the Government's commitment was 70 per cent. direct support to a £10 million national programme for training of social workers in this sector for the year 1989–90. I do not have the most up-to-date figures at my disposal, but I shall write to the hon. Gentleman with a figure when I get back to the Department. That will not be immediately, because I have three speeches to make in the Adjournment debates.
  The hon. Gentleman asked about ritual and organised abuse and whether the Government are taking steps to deepen our understanding of this particularly unpleasant subject, which must cause concern to all of us whenever we read about it, whether the account is sensationalised or in the dullest of prose. Investigation is directed at cases of child abuse, whether perpetrated by one person or a network of abusers. One investigates the fact of child abuse, not whether there is a network leading to it. The Department has been made aware of a number of child sexual abuse networks, which have been successfully investigated by local social service departments and the police.
  There has been no investigation of satanism per se. If any child were abused as part of a satanic ritual, that would be illegal—but nowhere in our criminal law is there a ban on the concept, if that is the right word, of satanism. The social services inspectorate has held meetings with representatives of the NSPCC, the Children's Society, Childline and other field agencies to hear of recent investigations into organised abuse, to gather intelligence and to explore the issues involved. It became clear that there was a need to obtain more information about child abuse networks, organised abuse and ritual abuse before guidelines could be produced.
  The inspectorate is continuing closely to monitor the position and the Department is conscious of the need to assess the scale and nature of the abuse, which may involve some ritualistic element, so that it can offer informed guidance. We do not hold any figures that give a clear picture of the percentage of children involved in organised abuse, compared with child abuse as a whole. However, evidence to date suggests that it is only a small percentage of the total quantum of the child abuse problem.

  1133
  The Department intends to commission an eminent academic to conduct research into the extent and nature of ritual and satanic abuse. It aims to produce guidance on organised abuse in the revised version of "Working Together", which the Department intends to publish to coincide with the implementation of the Children Act 1989 in the autumn. I hope that that makes it clear to the hon. Gentleman that we take the matter seriously. However, that does not detract from the proposition that it is the fact of child abuse that should motivate our inquiries, not an unpleasant concern about some network. It is the abuse which is the problem, and it is the abuse which must be our prime concern.
  I want to detail some of the lessons that have already been learnt from the Rochdale experience, and some of the steps that the Department has taken to ensure that those lessons are widely learnt and understood. As the hon. Gentleman knows, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State commissioned an investigation by the inspectorate, which was published last autumn. It made 42 recommendations aimed at the Rochdale social services department and agencies responsible for child protection.
  The key findings of the report were, first, that the area child protection committee procedures predated "Working Together" and were therefore deficient in a number of ways. The Department of Health published "Working Together" in 1988. It sets out recommendations for arrangements for inter-agency co-operation for the protection of children from abuse. Clearly, it does not make sense if the procedures adopted by area child protection committees are not consistent with the guidelines contained in that document. Following Rochdale's experience, one of the key priorities must be to ensure that its procedures are reformed and brought up to date, to reflect the guidance on the way in which agencies should co-operate in dealing with the problem.
  The second major finding of the report was that an unacceptable number of case conferences were delayed and were ineffective because they were not effectively chaired. Abused children and those suspected of being abused were automatically placed on the child protection register, whether or not they were still at risk. There was an absence of clear action plans.
  The minutiae of administration were ineffective in identifying the problems, prioritising which problems were the most urgent, and ensuring that proper steps were taken to identify and to follow up clear problems.
  The third major finding was that comprehensive assessments and plans could not be clearly identified and there was no rigorous policy of involving parents and children in assessment or case conferences. However, some examples of good practice were found in that area.
  Fourthly, it was found that good training existed between police and social service staff, but there was an urgent need for a review by the area child protection committee of arrangements for collaboration. Fifthly, it was found that there had been a lack of action by the area child protection committee to ensure that its policies had been implemented and to monitor the consequences on practice.
  The social services inspectorate report looked at 30 cases which were then current in Rochdale, but clearly could not look at the cases that were the subject of the wardship hearings which were then sub judice. It was reassuring that the inspectors found that, in all the cases
  1134
  that they studied, appropriate action had been taken to safeguard the children, which must always be the first goal of child protection work.
  Following the receipt of the report, the area child protection committee responded with a positive and comprehensive action plan, with a time scale attached, to put into effect the recommendations produced by the inspectorate. I have a list of the steps that have been taken by the Rochdale social services committee to apply the 42 major recommendations of the social services inspectorate to ensure that the lessons are learned and to prevent such things happening again.
  It is fair to add that the implementation of the Children Act 1989 with its revised procedures makes it difficult to see how precisely the same circumstances that occurred in Rochdale could recur. That is not to say that one could not end up in the same place by a different route, but the precise set of cause and effect circumstances that led to the unhappy saga of Rochdale are unlikely to recur under the new procedures when the Children Act is fully implemented in the autumn.
  Earlier this month, Mr. Justice Brown handed down his decisions in the wardship hearings on the 20 children from the Langley estate. The judge was critical of aspects of procedure and practice by the social work department. The Department of Health wishes to study the transcript of the judge's statement to identify any deficiencies in procedure and practice that were not covered in the social services inspectorate's report that was published in November 1990.
  Following the legitimate public concern in Rochdale, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has taken steps, to ensure that the social services inspectorate investigated what had happened in Rochdale, and has received that report and welcomed the fact that Rochdale council has committed itself to implement the report's 42 recommendations. Now, clearly, we need to study the judgment handed down by Mr. Justice Brown to ensure that we learn from any further lessons of the Rochdale experience.
  As the hon. Gentleman said, following the comments and criticisms in the wardship hearings, Mr. Littlemore tendered his resignation as the director of social services at Rochdale. Mr. Ian Davey, previously operational assistant director responsible for children's services in the period covered by the judgment, has been appointed acting director. It is expected that the substantive post of director will be advertised in the next few months.
  A major feature of the case that has caused public disquiet is the way that the courts kept children away from their families at the social services department's request without access. The loss of public wardship may result in magistrates being more ready to query refused access in those cases where eventual return to parents seems probable. Parents will have the right to challenge the making of an emergency protection order, and the courts will have to take account of the child's wishes. The local authority will have a duty to return a child looked after by it to his family home unless that is clearly against the child's interests. The authority also has a duty to ensure that children it is looking after and who are away from home have contact with their parents wherever humanly possible.
  I hope that the hon. Member for Heywood and Middleton will feel that the Government have demonstrated a determination to find out the facts, to learn from

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  them and to apply the lessons wherever the curse of child abuse—something which any civilised person finds it impossible to imagine—is discovered and that the child is protected from abuse wherever humanly possible. That is a shared imperative.

  Human Organs (Transplants and Supply)
  12.30 pm
  Sir Michael McNair-Wilson: I am glad to have this opportunity to speak about the transplant programme and the availability of organs. Perhaps I should start by declaring an interest. Last October, I was the recipient of a kidney transplant and, after a slightly shaky start, it is now working well and has transformed the life that I lived on dialysis, as I was told it would, and returned me to near normality.
  I am grateful to Professor Peter Morris and all the transplant team at the Churchill hospital in Oxford for the marvellous way that they looked after me. They are a great credit to the national health service.
  Transplantation has been described as the gift of life, and that is true in so many ways, especially for people with heart, lung, liver and pancreas problems. Unlike the kidney patient who always has dialysis, they have no fall-back position, so transplantation can make the difference between life and death. And it will do more: it will have a huge and beneficial effect on the quality of their life and that of their families. It will re-create a normal home existence and make possible a return to employment, with all the benefits that that brings.
  For kidney patients, transplantation is much cheaper than kidney dialysis, and when a transplant patient goes back to work the state benefits as a result of the taxes that he or she pays because of that employment.
  People who are fortunate enough to have had a successful organ transplant, like myself, are bound to feel the greatest sympathy for those on the waiting list. It is on their plight that I want to focus my remarks today, for, as transplantation becomes ever more successful, more people will seek its help and waiting listes are likely to lengthen. There is an over-simplified belief that, if we can find a new way to encourage would-be donors to come forward, we could eliminate the present waiting lists at a stroke and maintain a transplant service thereafter that was roughly in balance between supply and demand.
  Some people talk of an opting-out scheme, in which the organs would be taken on death unless the donor had said no before he died. I do not like that idea, because it destroys the idea of organ donation as a gift, voluntarily given. Others have pressed for required requests or required referrals. I do not think that either suggestion is enforceable.
  I believe that we shall have to continue to look to intensive therapy units as the main source for organs. Recently, I tabled to my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary a question about retrieval rates in intensive therapy units. In reply he said that, in 1989, just over 1,000 patients died every month in intensive therapy units, and that 8·4 per cent. of them were considered potential cadaveric organ donors on the basis that they were confirmed brain-stem dead and there were no general medical contra-indications to organ donation. That rate of 8·4 per cent. per 1,000 patients means 84 organ donors per 1,000, or just over 1,000 organ donors a year. For kidney patients, that should mean transplant opportunities for 2,000 persons. Bearing in mind that there were 3,931 people on the kidney transplant waiting list last Friday, supply is clearly meeting approximately half the demand. If we are to meet it in toto,

  1137
  kidney donor numbers must be increased by at least 1,000 a year. In other words, the number of cadaveric organ donors coming from the ITUs must be doubled.
  Can that be done, and are there any other untapped organ sources? Certainly studies suggest that some cerebro-vascular patients who die in general wards could be organ donors, and that, if that method were replicated nationally, a further 16·7 donors per million per year could be added to the current United Kingdom rate of 14·6 donors per million per year. Obviously, that would be a valuable addition; perhaps my hon. Friend the Minister can tell me how those studies are being transferred into practice.
  The kidney waiting list of 3,931 must be broken down into patients who are not sensitised to transplants—that is, those who have not yet had a transplant—and those who are sensitised, perhaps because they have had a failed transplant. Some 35 per cent. of the waiting list consists of unsensitised patients. Perhaps they, like me, will not have to wait very long to obtain a transplant; I had to wait only six weeks after being approved for the waiting list. Those who are sensitised will inevitably have to wait much longer, because for them the right kidney will take some time to appear.
  The questions that remain are where we are to find the additional donors, and whether the ITUs are producing the maximum possible number. They are, I think, the principal source for the foreseeable future. Everyone whom I have consulted agrees that success in finding donors rests on the enthusiasm of the transplant team, and on the sensitivity and effectiveness of the transplant co-ordinators. Theirs is a stressful job, because it involves both arranging for the organs to be taken by the individual surgical teams and seeing, talking to and winning the confidence of the next of kin, without whose consent the donation cannot be made.
  In the Oxford region—the region that I know best—there are two to three co-ordinators to the 2·8 million people who are served by the region. It is felt that more co-ordinators would produce more organs, not necessarily in Oxford but in the regions that have fewer co-ordinators. What steps is the Department taking to increase the number of co-ordinators—or is that strictly a matter for the region?
  As we know, 30 per cent. of those who are asked to consent to the removal of organs say no. Although many probably have strong religious and ethical grounds for their refusal, it is widely believed that the doctors who make the initial approach to the next of kin would benefit from bereavement counselling before performing that task. As theirs is the first approach, it is clearly of the greatest importance. Is such counselling now becoming standard practice throughout the regions of the health service? If not, why not?
  That initial approach is followed by the work of the co-ordinators, to whom I have already referred. We also know that 5 per cent. of the next of kin are never approached about organ donations, probably because the ITU where the donor has originated is not sufficiently motivated, or perhaps because it lacks the facilities to care for a donor—electric ventilation machinery, and other such equipment. Can the Minister enumerate the ITUs that currently cannot handle organ donations because of a lack of facilities? What steps are being taken to bring them up to date?
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  I was glad to learn recently from the United Kingdom transplant service that every health region is both an exporter and an importer of organs. That is to say, they are providing organs for other regions, as well as bringing in organs to meet their own needs. I was not surprised to hear that Oxford is at the top of the list. Last year it had 96 exports and 61 imports. I was disappointed to hear that a group of London hospitals was at the bottom of the list, with eight exports and 37 imports.
  One must wonder why there is such a disparity, whether the Department is taking steps to find out why such disparities exist, and what can be done to produce a more general and even flow between the regions, and why, in 1989, Euro-transplant retrieved more kidneys per million of population than we did and why Austria in particular acquired 52 kidneys per million of population against our figure of 31·7. What magic do the Austrians have that we do not possess? What can be done to improve our retrieval rate? If we could match the Austrian figure, the waiting list would largely disappear.
  Recently I was asked why, when a transplant case receives favourable publicity, organ availability increases. The answer seems to be that next of kin—those who give their consent, or otherwise, to organ donation—temporarily become more sympathetic to the idea. That suggests to me the need for still more education and a rather higher publicity profile than has been the case with organ transplantation.
  I welcome the fact that this year there is to be a national transplant week. I hope that the Department will use the opportunity to highlight the remarkable success of the United Kingdom's transplant programme to date. I hope also that schools will join in and include, perhaps, a reference to transplantation in biology lessons so that young people, like their families, will talk about transplantation among themselves and see it as the gift of life that it is—a gift that they may wish to have one day, a gift that, sadly, they may want to give. I hope that live donor transplants, although likely to be small in number, will increase, where appropriate.
  I do not underestimate the difficulty of increasing organ donations, particularly if we are to bring in people of 65 and over for transplants. I hope that I have suggested some possible ways that could help to improve the supply of organs. I take comfort from a recent article in the Wall Street Journal that describes the problem in America. For once, their problem is worse than ours. Now they are even considering payment of the funeral costs of organ donors as an inducement to donation. I very much hope that we do not have to go down that road. I shall listen with great interest to my hon. Friend's reply.
  12.42 pm
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Mr. Stephen Dorrell): By leave of the House, Mr. Deputy Speaker, may I say that I think I should speak for the whole House, if the whole House were here, if I said that there can be few more popular testimonies to the success of the transplant programme than my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Sir M.McNair-Wilson). He was an object lesson in courage to all of us during the time that he suffered from kidney problems. It is pleasant to see him looking more tanned and healthy than we have seen him

  1139
  for several years. He is, as he said, a walking example of the scientific advance represented by the organ transplant programme.
  I echo almost every aspect of my hon. Friend's approach to the problem. My hon. Friend began by saying, rightly, that the transplant programme is one of the great success stories of modern medicine and that it is a particular success story of the British national health service. My first memory of the transplant programme is of flickering black and white television photographs from the Groote Schuur hospital in 1969, when Professor Christiaan Barnard carried out the first heart transplant.
  When I became Under-Secretary of State for Health last year, my knowledge of medical advances was such that, while I understood that we had come some way since those days, I had no conception of the extent to which organ transplantation is now a routine operation in the national health service. It is done every day and thousands of patients throughout the country now leading normal lives are testimony to its success.
  I shall briefly weary the House with some statistics as that is the best way to illustrate the size and importance of the transplanting programme. The number of kidney transplants perforned in Britain has risen from 849 in 1978 to 1,732 in 1989—an increase of more than 100 per cent. in 11 years. More directly relevant to the Christiaan Barnard precedent, 295 hearts were transplanted in 1989, compared with only three in 1979. I shall not seek to calculate that figure in percentage terms, but nearly 300 heart transplants were carried out as routine operations within the national health service. In 1989, there were 295 liver transplants and 94 heart-lung transplants. In 1980, 3,145 people in Britain had functioning transplanted kidneys. By 1988, the figure had risen to 8,000 people, and it has continued to rise since. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury, those people lead virtually normal lives as a result of that great scientific advance.
  My hon. Friend was also right to nail one bugbear or misunderstanding of the transplantation programme when he drew attention to the fact that, at least in regard to kidney patients, transplantation is not high-tech medicine which is diverting the resources of the health service away from patients elsewhere in the service. It is more economic than other lower-tech services because, once a successful kidney transplant has been carried out, the health service is no longer committed to the extremely expensive and, from the patient's point of view, dramatically less satisfactory procedures related to various forms of dialysis. That is not to say that dialysis itself is not an advance and that advances have not been made within dialysis, but no one with any understanding of the economics or the quality arguments about the treatment of kidney patients can be under any doubt about the value attached to successful kidney transplantation and the benefits which that scientific advance has brought to patients through the NHS.
  It is worth remembering that it is a medical advance available throughout the world, but our record in Britain stands comparison with that of any other country in Europe. We have more kidney transplant patients now alive than any other country in Europe.
  The NHS has helped to develop and taken full advantage of the significant developments in transplant
  1140
  technology over the past decade, including improved drug treatment to prevent the rejection of organs. In view of some of the issues that were the main burden of my hon. Friend's speech, clearly reducing the rejection of organs makes a vital contribution to cutting waiting lists and to the effective use of donated organs. We have also been able to improve methods of preserving organs, which also increases the number of organs available.
  It is a major success story, but, as my hon. Friend quite rightly pointed out, there are still more people on the waiting lists for transplant operations than many of us would like. Unlike most other waiting lists in the health service, this list is not determined by the pace at which resources can be made available; it is not a resources-determined waiting list but one which exists, by and large, because of the lack of donors. Each of us can do something about cutting the list by ensuring that, if anything untoward happens to us, our family and friends know that we want our organs to be made available to others. We would all have the opportunity to help cut the list if a tragedy should occur.
  I shall now deal with the question how to increase the flow of organ availability because, as my hon. Friend said and as I have also stressed, that is the key to cutting the waiting list and to helping those on NHS waiting lists to benefit from this major advance in health. I entirely agree with the philosophy expounded by my hon. Friend about the way in which we should approach the subject.
  We must accept that nobody has a right to anybody else's organs. If something untoward happens, our organs may be of value to someone else but that should be the result of an altruistic decision about how we want our bodies to be used when we die. It should not be as a result of a right of the recipient. We must make that philosophical approach clear and accept it as the basis on which we encourage organ donorship. It is our responsibility to make such a decision and to ensure that our friends and relatives are aware of our views. It is the responsibility of the living whose organs may be of use to someone else; it is not anyone else's job to claim the organs.
  I agree with my hon. Friend that it is not a decision from which we should be required to opt out. It should be a positive decision that, when we die, we want our organs to be available to someone else. It is up to the individual to make his decision known. Furthermore, we should not make much progress if we imposed a statutory requirement on the professional people present at a bereavement to make a request for organs in conditions which they do not believe they can handle or which are unlikely to produce a positive result. It would make the law an ass to require them to make a request which they believed as professionals, to be inappropriate. The law would be absurd. I do not support the principle of requiring someone to opt out of, as it were, organ harvest; nor do I believe that we shall make progress by imposing a statutory obligation on professional people to make such request in the circumstances that I have described.
  We must find a way of eliminating the barriers to donorship which exist partly as a result of inadequate professional training but, perhaps pre-eminently, as a result of a misunderstanding by the majority of NHS patients and by society as a whole of what organ donorship means and the circumstances in which organs

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  can be taken from a dead or dying donor. I must correct that. The issue of donorship may arise when the patient is dying, but those organs are taken when the patient is dead.
  It is important to consider how to encourage organ donorship. My hon. Friend concentrated on the number of people who die in intensive therapy units whose organs could be of value to the transplant programme but who do not donate them. We have set up a national audit system to try to establish precisely how many people die in those units without their organs being available for transplant and why. This is an important matter, and we are seeking to inform ourselves not only of the number of missed opportunities as a result of that phenomenon but how we can ensure that that flow of organs improves. My hon. Friend is right in believing that that is the most effective way in which to conduct discussions on the issue.
  It is also important to consider the motivation of the intensive therapy units. The professional staff are emotionally involved in attempting to save a patient's life. When a patient dies, the staff often suffer the same feelings of bereavement as the family. Such deaths are demotivating and demoralising for the staff, but it is important to remind the staff that that death is an opportunity for secondary benefit, however great the primary tragedy. Such motivation must be included in the training of staff.
  My hon. Friend will also be aware of the recompense for costs incurred in intensive therapy units when they provide organs for use in another hospital. I assure my hon. Friend that we are addressing that question. We are also considering the training of professional staff so that they are aware of the secondary benefits of the primary tragedy to which I referred. We are also considering training on how to ask the next of kin for the consent which must be given before a dead patient's organs are taken.
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  My hon. Friend was right to stress the importance of the transplant co-ordinators and, if I may, I shall write to my hon. Friend on the specific question that he asked about them. They have a key role to play in raising the awareness of the public of the importance of reaching a decision on organ donorship.
  We should all face the fact that, without notice, we might find ourselves fighting for our lives in an intensive therapy unit as a result of an accident. That would bring us face to face with the possibility of our death, as well as of the fact that parts of our body may be of value to someone else. In those circumstances, surely it is better to have discussed the matter with our families so that they know our views. It is important that our concerns should have been addressed and allayed before we have to reach a decision on such donorship. The emotionally charged atmosphere of an intensive therapy unit is no occasion to be approaching this issue for the first time.
  It is a matter about which, as citizens, we should know our views and be sure that our families know those views so that when the question is asked the answer is automatic. We should be trained, as it were, in knowing what to do in such circumstances. We should be like the parachutist presenting himself at the back door of the aeroplane. He knows what his reaction will be, because he has done it often on the ground. His reaction becomes second nature and automatic.
  The most important step we can take is to be sure that the public understand the benefits that can come from transplantation. They must know that the subject requires everyone to make a decision and to be sure that that decision is known to our families. We must also be sure that all of that happens before we find ourselves in an intensive therapy unit having to make the decision for the first time in anger.

  Disabled People
  1 pm
  Mr. John Hughes: I appreciate this opportunity to raise the important issue of the disabled. Perhaps any debate on this subject should begin with a quotation from "Breaking the Chain," a campaign issue publication by the Spastics Society:
  "Because I'm disabled I don't even get a second look when applying for a job, so there is no way that I can get out from under the poverty line. I'm disabled and I live in a society that doesn't recognise the disabled. I can work. I should have that opportunity."
  The House has failed to acknowledge the many problems facing Britain's 6 million disabled people. The Americans with Disabilities Act 1990 makes it clear that society has historically tended to isolate and segregate individuals with disabilities, causing discrimination to be a serious and pervasive social problem. The Act recognises that such discrimination persists in such critical areas as employment, housing, public accommodation, education, transportation, communications, recreation, health services and access to public services. Many individuals have little or no legal recourse to redress such discrimination.
  I hope that hon. Members in all parts of the House recognise that, while society denies people with disabilities the opportunity fully to participate in the life of society, much human talent and energy are wasted and that the consequent dependency and non-productivity results in high costs to the nation.
  Britain has a poor track record, and it is time that Parliament made it a key subject for debate and legislation. Without a change in public attitude and Government action, the idea to which the Prime Minister subscribes, of a classless society in which opportunity prevails, is so much hot air. The present Prime Minister, when Minister for the disabled, did not rule out the possibility of anti-discrimination legislation.
  Because I am anxious to give the Minister ample time in which to reply to the debate—and since hon. Members could site sufficient cases from their constituencies to more than occupy the time available today—I shall give only a few examples of the way in which the disabled suffer in society.
  The disabled already have enormous barriers of fear and ignorance to overcome before being able to get a job. According to a recent Government report, the 3 per cent. quota law has been a dramatic failure. The best region is Yorkshire, where, at 1·5 per cent., the take-up rate is half the legal minimum. The worst take-up rate is in the south-east, where, at 0·7 per cent., it is only a quarter of the legal minimum. Lambeth council is one of the few authorities to have made great efforts to live up to the law. It has committed itself to offering jobs only to people with disabilities. Otherwise, the reasons for the extremely low take-up rates seem to relate to ridiculous fears, prejudices and ignorance about the problems of the disabled at work.
  Too often, people think of wheelchairs when the word "disabled" is mentioned. Disabilities range from relatively minor impairments, such as epilepsy, to total impairment such as paraplegia. The simple mention of a disability seems to put employers' backs up. They often assume the worst and do not even bother to interview disabled people.
  The Centre for Integrated Living in Ripley, Derbyshire operates an employment agency. It had on its books an
  1144
  epileptic, a skilled worker, who was not even considered for a job by a company that thought that his wheelchair could not cope with stairs.
  Disabled people should not all be lumped into a vast homogeneous mass. A change in popular attitudes towards disabled people is needed. In turn, that requires the Government to take the lead in introducing comprehensive legislation. They cannot wash their hands of the problem. There is frightening evidence of discrimination in the Government's agency, Remploy, which has the specific job of providing employment for disabled people in sheltered accommodation. According to observers quoted in the publication of Mainstream, an organisation that promotes integrated opportunities for disabled people, disabled people who were interviewed said:
  "They want able-bodied people with dandruff. They want fit people for a very hard working job. There are lads down there throwing cardboard into one end of a machine and running to get to the other end before it comes out. They want their pound of flesh at Remploy. It is not top of the pops with me.
  Such criticism deserves an inquiry and a decent response. Regrettably, Remploy seems to be a case study in what goes wrong when the Government throw such agencies to the wall for market forces and instruct them to break even. The more such agencies adopt that approach, the less able they will be to do their jobs. The disabled deserve better than that.
  Although the evidence of substantial and systematic discrimination against disabled people is overwhelming, it is persistently ignored. Ten years after the Committee on Restrictions Against Disabled People's report on restrictions on disability, and as we near the end of the United Nations Decade of Disability, there has been monumental inaction.
  I am not alone in arguing that the Government are complacent about the burning issue of discrimination against disabled people. Even the Tory-dominated Select Committee on Employment remains unconvinced about the Government's view that no new legislation is needed, at least for employment. The Select Committee agreed that the Government should
  "explore urgently the possibility of equal opportunities legislation for the employment of disabled people and report to Parliament on its potential effects and costs to the labour market."
  The Government argue that anti-discrimination laws are too complicated to draft and enforce, that they frighten employers and that they are too expensive and bureaucratic. They are so confident of their arguments that they are frightened even to commission reports on the one country that has laws to challenge such nonsense—the United States. Ministers in the United States no doubt used to express the view that the Government regularly trot out—that little action should be taken and that the disabled should wait their turn and the munificence of municipal authorities and businesses. However, the United States Ministers were defeated in the early 1970s when that country first introduced anti-discrimination laws, which have been widely accepted. Indeed, they have been strengthened by the Americans with Disabilities Act 1990.
  The House should recognise that the American Act provides a good model for legislation to outlaw discrimination against disabled people in this country. It details the way in which disadvantage in employment, public services and telecommunications can be rectified.

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  For instance, all public transport vehicles built after a certain time must have facilities to carry disabled people in comfort, particularly those in wheelchairs. I am sure that in years to come the Government's inaction over the discrimination and disadvantage suffered by disabled people will be seen as one of the great moral scandals of their term, and, to be fair, the terms of other Governments.
  The Government should also commission studies on the operation of the law in Germany, where a quota system of 6 per cent. is combined with a punitive levy or tax on those firms that do not comply. Those moneys are then directed to a fund to provide employment opportunities for disabled people. The Government should also commission reports on the operation of the law in Canada and Australia. They should take a leaf from the American book, but they have refused even to study that law. Why?
  The Minister cannot continue to play each of the three wise monkeys by himself—see no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil. It is high time that the Government opened their eyes to the dreadful disadvantage and discrimination suffered by all too many disabled people and set in train a cross-party effort to undermine and reverse it.
  1.10 pm
  Mr. Dave Nellist: I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, North-East (Mr. Hughes) and to the Minister for Social Securityy and Disabled People for allowing me a couple of minutes in which to raise two matters which I hope that the Minister will note. I appreciate the fact that the right hon. Gentleman has not had notice of my points, but if he will promise to write to me during the recess, that will do. My hon. Friend spoke about discrimination against the disabled, about employment problems even at Remploy, which was supposed to end such problems, and about anti-discrimination laws.
  I wish to refer to allowances and travel. As the Minister remembers, we have crossed swords more than once on social security issues, not least a couple of years ago in the debate on whether to extend attendance allowance to severely disabled babies under two. Although the announcement was made in a statement and the money was not redistributed as well as I should have wished, no one was more pleased than I was to learn that the exclusion was to end from 9 April 1990.
  As the Minister remembers, I tabled a new clause on this matter, but there is no need to rehearse that point now. The current edition of "Counter Claim", a Merseyside welfare rights magazine, contains an article which states that Social Security Commissioner Hoolahan ruled against the Department of Social Security adjudication officer under cases CA/380/1990 and CA/381/1990. He declared that it was illegal for the Department to have denied families the attendance allowance of almost £40 a week before 9 April. He ruled that the' exclusion of children under two by regulation 6(2)(b) was not a modification but an exclusion and disallowed the appeal by the adjudication officer.
  The article stated:
  "It's difficult to know how many parents of disabled babies have been deterred from applying for Attendance Allowance because of this unlawful restriction, but when Attendance Allowance was formally extended to cover babies under two, the Government estimated the move would benefit 3,000 families. If this is an annual figure some 45,000 families may have lost up to £75 million at today's prices."
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  Ex-gratia payments should be awarded in such cases. What is the Department doing to track down those 45,000 families and to make ex gratia payments, not least to the family from Nuneaton who came here a couple of years ago, as the Minister may remember?
  The Minister will know Hereward college in Coventry. An article in the Evening Telegraph on Tuesday should shock him. I shall let the Minister read it after the debate.
  At present, people in wheelchairs who wish to travel by train are placed in the guard's van with the parcels. They have no access to toilets or to food, but they pay exactly the same fare on British Rail as other travellers. It is a scandal that people are treated like luggage. British Rail says that 130 stations have been upgraded to facilitate the disabled. Such upgrading is welcome, but it is proceeding too slowly. Travel facilities from Coventry to London and, indeed, to other parts of the country are a disgrace.
  I hope that the Minister will assure us that he will liaise with his colleagues in the Department of Transport and inform me by letter or, better still, by an announcement in the House that this state of affairs will end and that people in wheelchairs will have exactly the same rights of access to public transport as those who are able to walk.
  1.16 pm
  The Minister for Social Security and Disabled People (Mr. Nicholas Scott): I shall start with a story that might illustrate some of the problems that have been mentioned by the hon. Members for Coventry, North-East (Mr. Hughes) and for Coventry, South-East (Mr. Nellist). A few days ago, I was speaking to a young lady in a wheelchair who told me about an incident that happened when she was setting out on a trip on British Rail with her mother. After a cup of coffee, her mother had gone to buy a newspaper, leaving the young lady sitting in her wheelchair holding an empty coffee cup. A passer-by put 50p in the cup. That shows that many people perceive the disabled as pathetic creatures who are in need of help.
  I have been in this job for four years, and I know that the overwhelming majority of disabled people wish to be independent, to be integrated into able-bodied society, and to have opportunities for employment, leisure activities, transportation and so on. For the time being at least, most people take those things for granted. I welcome this debate as another small step in raising awareness about the ambitions of disabled people in our society and about the duty of central and local government and society to enable them to achieve those ambitions.
  I am not sure whether the blanket anti-discrimination legislation mentioned by both hon. Gentlemen is the appropriate way to proceed. There is no doubt that we are making progress. A few days ago, I was reminded of my visit to the mid-Cheshire sheltered workshop, which caters for the needs of people with cerebral palsy and mentally handicapped young people. I was told that 12 people from there have been taken on by a local factory and are living independently in flats in the same town as the factory. Anti-discrimination legislation is no magic wand. I understand, although I have not been able to check it, that, although the Americans with Disabilities Act 1990 has been passed, no federal funds have been made available to implement it.
  The hon. Member for Coventry, North-East said that we have a bad track record on this matter. I take issue with that. I have travelled widely in the United States and

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  Europe, and I know that we have made steady progress in helping disabled people. It is untrue to say that there has been monumental inaction. Any fair-minded person looking at what has happened to the quality of life for disabled people in the past 10 years would have to admit that substantial progress has been made. For reasons that I shall later outline, the next 10 years will be even more exciting and important in improving the lives of disabled people.
  As the House knows, I have direct responsibility only for the benefit system for disabled people. Like my predecessor, now the Prime Minister, and others who have held the job, including the right hon. Member for Manchester, Wythenshawe (Mr. Morris), the first ever Minister for the Disabled, I have set targets across the whole of Government to encourage and persuade my colleagues to place the needs of disabled people in the forefront of their priorities.
  The hon. Member for Coventry, North-East was right to make employment the first of his concerns. I shall come back to what my colleagues in the Department of Employment are doing about that. My second priority would be access to transport, buildings and homes. The third priority, which in the next 10 years may turn out to be the most important in enabling disabled people to acquire both independence and integration in our society, is the impact of information technology and new technology on their lives.
  The hon. Member for Coventry, South-East talked about babies under two who survive now as they never would have done given the state of medical technology 10 years ago. He gave me a rough ride on that subject in two sittings of the Committees examining two social security Bills. After the second debate, I made it clear that I was not prepared to defend the policy on that any further, so we have amended it. As to the decision by Commissioner Hoolahan, on this issue, I shall write to the hon. Gentleman about the matter. We are studying the judgment. I think that it is probably not a reflection on the law as it stood before, but I should not want to prejudge more careful consideration of that judgment.
  I have a key interest in promoting the interests of all people who suffer from disabilities of one sort or another. I am as anxious as any other hon. Member to ensure that people with disabilities should not be denied their rightful place in society simply because of their disability. Nor would I deny that discrimination exists—of course it does. We have to battle against it, but, rather than legislating, the most constructive and productive way forward is through raising awareness in the community as a whole.
  As I have said before, demographic trends over the coming decades mean that fewer 18-year-olds will come on to the job market, with the result that employers will be compelled to look beyond the disability that is all too often their only perception of the disabled person to the abilities that lie behind. Anyone who has the privilege, as I have, of meeting people with disabilities week after week, will be impressed, as I am time after time, by the abilities of disabled people and their determination to use those abilities in the interest of society. I remain convinced that the way to achieve the integration of disabled people into society is to give them, as far as possible, equality of
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  opportunity and to make it easier for them to live, work and engage in social activities along with their able-bodied peers.
  In the time remaining in this short debate, I shall concentrate on the practical measures that the Government want to introduce rather than on the concept of generalised anti-discrimination legislation. I start, as did the hon. Member for Coventry, North-East, with employment. My colleagues in the Department of Employment have been giving serious consideration to the need for legislation on employment policy. The issue was addressed, as everyone will be aware, in some detail in the Department's consultative document "Employment and Training for People with Disabilities", which was published last June. Chapter 5 of that document, a copy of which was placed in the Library, looked at the present arrangements, including the quota system, and considered a number of alternatives.
  As hon. Members will be aware, one of the problems with the quota system is that, if every employer ensured that 3 per cent. of his work force comprised registered disabled people, there would not be enough people on the register to go round. We know that many disabled people do not want to hang around their necks the label "registered disabled". Those suffering disability should be in our sights as we seek to improve the employment position for disabled people.
  A considerable number of responses to the consultative document have been received. Ministers are considering the issue and will announce their decisions in due course. I have no doubt that some employers' recruitment practices discriminate unfairly against people with disabilities. Indeed, they discriminate unfairly against other groups, such as the elderly and women. Often, an employer discriminates against a disabled person because of ignorance of that person's capabilities, not from ill will. However, it is difficult to assess the scale of the problem.
  Some companies implement excellent policies for employing disabled people. Indeed, a number of them have joined together in the Employers Forum on Disability to share experiences and good practice. Some examples of good practice are the Department of Employment's code of good practice—the first in Europe—launched in 1984; the establishment of the Disablement Advisory Service in 1983; the offer of financial help to employers to overcome particular difficulties; and just recently, the introduction of a new symbol for employers—we should not underestimate the importance of symbolic moves—that demonstrates their commitment to good practice. I believe that the appearance of that symbol in advertisements for jobs will help a disabled job seeker, who may be anxious about starting or changing employment, to have confidence that the employer is committed to good practice.
  The hon. Member for Coventry, South-East mentioned transport, which is an immensely emotive subject. The whole concept of putting wheelchair people into a guard's van, along with the livestock and the luggage, is offensive to anyone who thinks about it. We are making progress, and there is a special unit within the Department of Transport that is planning and achieving considerable advances. The Department is working on a prototype of a wheelchair-accessible bus. It hopes that there will be a Europewide standard on a low-level access bus for wheelchair users. London has wheelchair-accessible mobility buses in 11 boroughs. As I think the House is

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  aware, all new taxis must be accessible to wheelchair users. A number of other local authorities are now also saying that they will license new taxis only if they meet the standard of the new wheelchair-accessible taxis in London.
  The hon. Gentleman mentioned the problems with British Rail. Mr. Bill Buchanan, who advises on these matters and is himself in a wheelchair, tells me that there is considerable progress in making services and stations more accessible. It is all very well ensuring that trains are wheelchair-accessible, but that is not a great deal of use if the stations are not wheelchair-accessible. All new InterCity trains now have wheelchair places and properly accessible toilets. The real problem with which we must deal is Network SouthEast, whose stock is very old, and it will take some time to replace it. However, we are making steady progress, and I know that the Department of Transport and British Rail are committed to that.
  Within Government as a whole, and across the Departments of Employment, Environment, Health, and Social Security, the needs of people with disabilities are receiving considerable weight. The Department of Health has wide-ranging and comprehensive plans for the future of community care, designed to give disabled people a greater say in how they live their lives and greater opportunities for choice and independence. Those are themes which underpin the philosophy of community care, and as they begin to take hold after 1993, they will increasingly help disabled people to become or remain full contributors to our society.
  The interests of disabled children will be promoted by the implementation of the Children Act 1989, which integrates local authorities' responsibilities for children with disabilities with those for other children who are in need. One of the Act's key features is its emphasis on the need for the child and its parents to participate in decisions affecting the child.
  I end on this note. All the progress that we can make in the area of coping with the needs of people with disabilities will be set at nought unless disabled people can find out what is available. Therefore, both through the European Community Handynet agreement—through which we have given some £275,000 to the Disabled Living Foundation to improve information technology—for services and equipment available to disabled people, and through the national disability information project launched by the Department of Health, we are determined to see that, increasingly, people with disabilities are aware of the services, the equipment and other help that are available to them to enable them to improve the quality of their lives and, progressively, to overcome the discrimination which undoubtedly still exists about their employment.

  Papworth Hospital
  1.30 pm
  Sir Anthony Grant: I am proud to have the Papworth hospital within my constituency. It is, as is well known, world famous for heart surgery and treatment. It is long past the research and experimental stage of other transplant surgery and it has a proven track record. It has saved many lives and improved the quality of life for many others.
  Papworth hospital is notable for the expertise and the exceptionally high morale of staff at all levels—consultants, doctors, nurses and all ancillary staff—which compares favourably with that at many other hospitals. Above all, and most importantly, patients are delighted with the treatment that they receive there. I do not think that I have met a single patient who has not been full of praise of the way in which he has been treated and the way in which he has recovered from a serious operation at Papworth hospital.
  All, whether consultants, staff or patients, have one thing in common—they do not want to move to the equally famous Addenbrooke's hospital, also in my constituency. There are many reasons for that. I will not go into all the details, but they include staffing, parking of vehicles, accommodation for relatives and amenities, particularly for the long-stay patients, and the patients there are necessarily of a long-stay nature compared with those in a district hospital. All those are easier at Papworth than they are in Cambridge. Addenbrooke's, excellent hospital though it is, with some of the highest skills available in the world, is already much too large and ought not to become larger. That is the view I take, and it is the view that the people who work there and the customers take. It is also, I have to say, a view shared by my colleagues in the House who represent the county of Cambridgeshire.
  But there is a serious problem, which is the reason why I have sought this Adjournment debate. Papworth has a waiting list of 900, double what it was nine months ago. I am told that patients are having to wait so long that when they are admitted they are already either urgent or emergency cases. Currently, more than 80 per cent. of the patients are thus classified. The remaining 20 per cent. on the waiting list have to wait an average of 11 months. That is not good enough. I am advised by those who know that the maximum waiting time for patients of that nature should be six months and that patients in that category should not make up more than 40 per cent. of the total.
  During the last year, Papworth has received letters about the waiting list on behalf of patients from many Members of Parliament, including no less a person than the Prime Minister himself and, significantly, from my hon. Friend the Minister's boss, the Secretary of State for Health, who has had occasion to write to the hospital on behalf of patients who have been waiting too long.
  The hospital is working harder than ever and has increased productivity, and there is a record number of operations using the same number of beds. The number of heart specialists has doubled from five to 10. However, despite all that admirable activity and work, the hospital is failing to match demand, which has doubled in 12 months. With new treatments and wider knowledge, there is no likelihood that that demand will diminish for the foreseeable future.

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  Bearing that in mind, a new operating theatre will be available in 1992. Indeed, a few months ago I had the privilege of digging the first sod for the work on that splendid new operating theatre. In addition, a second angiography suite will be opened in 1992, thus enabling the workload to double, at a cost of about £3 million to public funds.
  However, beds are needed if the new facilities are to be used and the waiting lists eased. The position is rather absurd. The only analogy that I can offer is that it is like a marvellous train standing in a station, with the most expert drivers and crew and a long line of passengers waiting and longing to get on board, but the train is unable to move because there are not enough coaches. It is no solution to tell people that they will have to move to another station: we need extra coaches.
  What will the new wing cost?—a substantial amount, £1·5 million. How does one deal with the problem? One could ask the regional health authority, but it already has heavy demands upon its money, added to which it will not make up its mind because it says that the future of Papworth is uncertain. The uncertainty has been created by the regional health authority, in my judgment, because people in my constituency, and I myself, wish that Papworth should stay where it is. That uncertainty, which the regional health authority has not resolved, makes it reluctant to produce the money, even if it had it.
  However, there is a simpler solution, which will not cost the regional health authority anything in hard cash, because at least four private companies are prepared to invest in the new wing, at no expense to the public, but they must be certain that they will get a return on their investment. If they could be certain that Papworth hospital would stay where it is for 10 years and that the new wing would be used for that time, they would get a return on their investment. However, if the wing is used for only six or seven years, they will not get an adequate return.
  Therefore, we are in a Catch-22 position. The simple solution is for a guarantee to be given that Papworth will either stay as it is for at least 10 years or, in the event of the hospital being moved to Addenbrooke's hospital, the health authority will guarantee repayment to those who invest in the new wing. What are the benefits if that solution is adopted? I can think of three important benefits.
  First and foremost, the patient waiting lists for cardiac services will shorten. Secondly, district health authorities will benefit. Papworth is in an excellent authority in the Hunts district which is run very efficiently by its staff—all of whom, from the chairman downwards, are dedicated people whose work I greatly admire. Such authorities will be able to purchase more services by virtue of the new wing, and, what is more, the income from private patients will enable them to do so more cheaply. Thirdly—this should commend itself not only to the Department of Health but to the Treasury—the taxpayer would see the £3 million already spent on the new operating theatre and angiography suite working to optimum capacity rather than its present 50 per cent.
  All the arguments point to the solution that I have suggested. I think that it is in the interests of patients, doctors, staff and everyone else who is concerned with this remarkable hospital. I do not expect the Minister to make
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  a decision this afternoon; Ministers cannot be expected to construct policy on the hoof. I merely wish to alert the Government and the public to an important health problem, and—perhaps equally important—to point out that there is a relatively simple solution, if only those in charge will grasp the facts, make a firm decision and remove all uncertainty.
  1.41 pm
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Mr. Stephen Dorrell): I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridgeshire, South-West (Sir A. Grant) will forgive me if I begin by saying that I was a little concerned to discover yesterday that I would be answering a debate in which he would be putting the questions. Having witnessed the effectiveness of his questioning of the Opposition yesterday, I did not want to find myself in the same position.
  My hon. Friend has not let his constituents down. He has presented a very effective espousal of the case of those concerned about future investment in Papworth hospital, and those who support his solution. As well as highlighting the appealing simplicity of that solution, he has left no stone unturned in his cogent presentation of the arguments.
  If my hon. Friend had been present earlier, he would know that only an hour ago I was describing the dramatic advances that we have achieved in the national health service: the expansion of the transplant programme, and the enormous health benefits that the improvements in modern medicine have unleashed. I was replying to a speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Sir M. McNair-Wilson), who has benefited from a different kind of transplant from those with which Papworth is primarily concerned—but that transplant is another manifestation of the importance of the programme to which Papworth makes such a distinguished contribution.
  As I told my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury, before I became a Health Minister last May my exposure to transplanting in general, and heart transplants in particular, had been that of a layman. I vaguely remembered the flickering black and white television pictures from the Groote Schuur hospital in Capetown in the late 1960s, when Dr. Christiaan Barnard first performed a heart transplant operation. I thought of heart transplantation as a major technical advance that was still very much on the leading edge of technology. I did not think of heart transplants in the context in which they now take place. They are now routine operations in the national health service. Thousands of people who are walking the streets of this country have benefited from the surgery that has been developed to such a high pitch at Papworth hospital. It is one of the major benefits of modern medicine, and it has been provided to the people of this country through the agency of the national health service.
  At the beginning of his speech my hon. Friend was keen to put on record the very considerable achievements of his constituents within Papworth hospital and to draw attention to the fact that he has the privilege of representing two hospitals, both of which have international reputations, earned from very successful clinical records and the exploitation of medical advances. Since 1979, the number of heart bypass operations

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  performed at Papworth hospital has increased by nearly 300 per cent. That is a measure of the advance that has been made possible by modern medicine at Papworth hospital.
  The hospital is to receive £250,000 from the East Anglian regional health authority's waiting lists fund to do 70 more bypass operations next year than were previously planned. Apart, therefore, from Papworth hospital having a distinguished track record, it has also received support from the East Anglian regional health authority to deal with the waiting list problem that my hon. Friend identified as one of the managerial issues that the hospital has to face.
  Furthermore, as my hon. Friend briefly mentioned, the hospital has also benefited from a significant capital expenditure programme that is currently under way. It is a £2·7 million scheme for a third operating theatre at the hospital, which is due to open in April 1992. No one could argue that Papworth is not a major success story within the national health service, or that its success story has not been reinforced and supported by national health service management in general and the East Anglian regional health authority in particular. Due to its success and reputation, both nationally and internationally, Papworth hospital has received the letters to which my hon. Friend referred from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, both of whom are concerned about constituents who are on the Papworth hospital waiting list because they wish to benefit from the surgery that that hospital can provide.
  I am grateful to my hon. Friend for drawing my attention to the fact that, apart from having to guard myself against the effective questioning of which he has so recently shown himself to be a master, I must ensure that whatever I say will read well in the constituency press both of my immediate boss and of my ultimate boss. In responding, therefore, to my hon. Friend's speech, I have to choose my words extremely carefully.
  My hon. Friend argued vigorously that the current waiting list problem at Papworth hospital could most effectively be addressed and reduced by accepting the offer of private capital to provide an additional ward, thus increasing Papworth hospital's capacity. To adopt the metaphor used by my hon. Friend this afternoon and in a recent letter to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health, it would add an extra coach to the train.
  Whether the extra ward is funded by the regional health authority or by private capital, the issue clearly needs to be examined to find out whether the additional ward would provide the relatively low marginal cost benefit to patients on the waiting list. I shall certainly ensure that the proposal is carefully examined. If it is true that for the relatively modest expenditure involved in providing an additional ward in the hospital the rest of the resources, not least the £2·7 million new third operating theatre coming on stream in April 1992, could be used more effectively to produce a lower average cost per operation and to treat more patients within the hospital as a result of having an additional ward, that is clearly a powerful argument which those responsible for the routine front-line management of the health service in Cambridgeshire will have to address.
  I pause for a second to reflect on the role that private capital could play in the provision of that additional ward space. It is quite explicitly one of the benefits that should flow from the reformed structure of the NHS that comes
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  into effect next Monday and the introduction of the concept of purchaser-provider that we should be more open minded about the employment of privately funded capital stock for the treatment of health service patients.
  The burden of my hon. Friend's argument was not only that a relatively small additional investment would yield large benefits for patients if placed at the Papworth hospital, but that the health service need not expect to finance that investment because private capital is available. It makes my hon. Friend's approach that much more attractive, and is a clear and timely illustration of the benefits of an effective and flexibly managed health service from the employment of the principles of purchaser-provider that come into effect next Monday.
  Those reforms concentrate the mind on the core activity of the NHS. We must remember that the NHS should not be principally about running hospitals. It exists to provide equal access to health care for patients. It is an enabling mechanism to ensure that access to health care is determined on the basis of clinical need and not ability to pay. If that can best be done by using public funds through the agency of a purchaser district health authority to purchase health care from a privately funded provider, that is an entirely benign result which I am sure every patient on a Papworth waiting list would applaud with vigour.
  I pause to reflect upon the significance of my hon. Friend's suggestion and to stress that not only are we open-minded towards it but we embrace the concept of a privately funded facility if the benefit is to enhance the quality of patient care to health service patients waiting for treatment at Papworth hospital. I find that aspect of his argument extremely attractive.
  My hon. Friend went on to express concern about what he felt was the potential uncertainty about the future of Papworth hospital. I should like to address that concern directly; it is clearly critical to the viability of the privately funded ward for which my hon. Friend was keen to argue this afternoon. Clearly he is right in believing that we shall not be able to recruit private capital to a hospital when its future is limited to a relatively few years.
  I wish to explain in more detail the current position on the future of the hospital. Papworth hospital was built in 1928 as a tuberculosis sanitorium and chest hospital. The surroundings of the hospital are attractive, but the existing capital stock of the hospital is relatively old and fragmented and the running costs for the buildings are relatively high.
  The management of the health service believes that for the hospital to remain viable for the practice of high-tech open heart surgery and transplantation a significant rebuilding, expansion and investment programme will be needed to ensure that the buildings in which the high quality clinical care is offered are able to provide the security and conditions in which high-tech medicine can be properly and best offered. Such a programme would also ensure that the buildings were not wasteful in terms of the revenue expenditure which is necessary to keep them operating. It would be crazy to have a high-tech hospital where money that should be spent on high-tech medicine was spent on propping up extremely low-tech buildings.
  After some initial appraisal work, the regional health authority invited Huntingdon district health authority in April last year to consult locally on options for the future of Papworth services. Having done so, it asked it to submit its recommendations to the regional health authority for a

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  decision. I can now tell the House that the district health authority expects to issue a document for consultation about the future of Papworth by mid-April. It is currently in draft form and has yet to be formally agreed by the district health authority, but it is likely to include a detailed appraisal of four main options.
  The first option is to extend Papworth and upgrade the existing buildings on the Papworth site. The second is to build a replacement building on the site. A third is to provide a new building on the site of Hinchingbrooke hospital in Huntingdon. A fourth—which my hon. Friend was concerned that the House should realise was the subject of significant local opposition—is to construct a new building on the site of Addenbrooke's hospital in Cambridge. I understand that they are the four options that are likely to be canvassed in an entirely neutral way in the document to be published by the district health authority in a few weeks.
  The document will also state what the key criteria against which those options will be assessed should be. First, it is important that the patient has reasonable access to the health care. Secondly, it is important that the environment in the hospital is congenial and appropriate for the offering of the type of health care for which the hospital was designed.
  Sir Anthony Grant: Especially long-stay care.
  Mr. Dorrell: My hon. Friend is right to remind me that it must be appropriate for the offering of relatively long-stay care. I pause slightly over the use of the term "long-stay", because, to a Minister with responsibility for mental health services, it tends to mean something slightly different than it would in the context of cardiothoracic care.
  We might deal with the problems of staff recruitment and retention. Furthermore, we must ensure that, whatever form the new Papworth facility takes, it is able to recruit and retain the staff that it needs. We must also consider clinical integration, teaching, research and the relative cost of the different options. We must also seek to ensure that the facilities that we provide are flexible and can expand and contract to meet the demand for the facilities offered in the new hospital and that they do not commit successor generations to a capital stock that they are unable to mould to emerging needs. We must also bear in mind the adjustment cost during the implementation phase of any capital investment programme and ensure that disruption is kept to a minimum in that period.
  Those options will be canvassed as a result of the consultation document. Following that, I hope that we shall be able to arrive at a decision about how the excellent health care available at Papworth hospital is ensured for the future. I hope that that decision is reached in an orderly and not excessively time-consuming manner.
  The Government and the health service are committed to maintaining intact the infrastructure which is Papworth hospital. The question is how we design our capital investment programme to ensure that that institution and infrastructure is available to the best advantage of patients for the lifetime of the capital investment which we are making in the future of that centre of excellence of British medicine.

  Borders Health Board Area
  2 pm
  Mr. Archy Kirkwood: I am grateful for the opportunity afforded to me and my right hon. Friend the Member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale (Sir D. Steel), should he seek to catch your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to discuss the important question of long-stay care provision in the Borders.
  I know that the Minister would prefer to be elsewhere, but I make no apology for asking the House to consider this issue, which is not only important locally, but urgent, because the local area health board published a consultation document "Changes in Health Care Services" at the end of February. It has solicited comments on that document to be returned by 3 April for consideration at the next board meeting on 11 April or at the subsequent meeting on 7 May. One of the important issues behind this debate is the local concern that the time scale over which the decisions are to be considered and the consultation undertaken is far too short. I wonder whether the Minister could say something about that later.
  I know that profound changes will be made to the way in which the national health service is structured and financed after 1992, when an internal market is established. I know that that means that some changes must be made, but to what extent is it absolutely necessary to work to the time scale to which the board seems determined to adhere? Is there any scope for flexibility in the time available?
  The board's financial circumstances are peculiar to the extent that, in 1989, it completed a substantial capital project—the Borders district general hospital. That work involved £4 million of additional expenditure, a substantial sum given the size of the health board. The Minister will also be aware that, in 1989, the board borrowed £500,000, which it is required to pay back. However, the NHS management executive has also decreed that it should eliminate its deficit by 1992–93. I understand that that requirement has been placed on the other Scottish health boards, but certain circumstances in the Borders argue that special mitigating factors should be taken into account.
  If the NHS management executive and the Scottish Office Home and Health Department insist on the board's carrying out those financial cuts within the time stipulated, the task will be too demanding to be undertaken sensibly. The damage that may result could be well in excess of any savings, financial or otherwise, that may be made.
  I know that in 1991–92 the board has been allowed a net income of £36·95 million—an increase of £4·45 million on the 1990–91 budget. Much of that money has already been hypothecated to developments insisted upon by central Government, for example Project 2000, the extra money needed for the treatment of AIDS, the junior hospital doctors allocation, as well as money needed to deal with the abolition of Crown immunity.
  All those issues, though important, will take a large proportion of the extra money that has been made available to the board. Indeed, the board calculates that it has only about £1 million of new money that is not already committed. Is there any hope for the Borders health board of additional help, in terms of the SHARE formula,

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  bearing in mind that we have not yet reached parity in money due to that board relative to that given to other boards in Scotland?
  Suffice it to say that the board needs to make efficiency savings of £650,000–2 per cent. of its budget—if income and expenditure are to be in balance by the end of March 1992. In addition, it must make efficiency savings of 1 per cent. All that represents an extremely tall order. It seems unreasonable, and the Government should pay more attention to the requirements of some boards.
  The Borders health board has been extremely prudent in its expenditure. It has played the game by all the rules set by St. Andrew's house, and in its present hour of need it would be proper for the Scottish Office to look with more sympathy on the claims that the board is making.
  The changes that the consultation document proposes, in terms of long-term care and provision in the Borders, mean that there could be a substantial move of long-stay patient care out of NHS provision into the private and voluntary sector. I have nothing against that sector. There are examples in the Borders of exemplary homes, which are run to a high standard by dedicated people.
  I have nothing against that sector in principle, but great concern is being expressed lest, if the board's proposals and the ideas in the consultation document are put into practice, there will be difficulty guaranteeing and overseeing the standards of care that long-stay patients now enjoy in the NHS in the Borders. We must not overlook the wishes of patients. If a patient in, for example, a ward in the district general hospital in Galashiels is opposed to having private or voluntary sector care, his or her wishes should be respected.
  The professional health care teams are worried lest the result of the changes will be a fragmentation of the multi-disciplinary approach and team work that they have built up over many years. Their efforts have resulted in a high standard of care of geriatric and long-stay patients locally.
  There is also concern about the morality, so to speak, of seeking to use Department of Social Security income support payments to support long-stay patients locally. There are 385 private nursing home beds in the Borders, but, by definition, they are provided in an unplanned and incoherent way and are not related to local demands.
  There are some important staffing issues involved in all this. There are potential redundancies on a not inconsiderable scale, so the staff are confronted with uncertainty about their future, but to be fair to them, they are less worried about themselves than about the standard of care available to their patients.
  In my experience, the staff of the NHS are the service's most valuable asset. Locally in the Borders, they are committed and dedicated people. Their morale is suffering as a result of the changes that are being considered. They are asking why the elderly are carrying the brunt of the cuts. Is it because they are a soft target? They believe that the changes will result in privatisation by the back door, and that is causing them much distress and uncertainty.
  I urge the Minister to take an urgent and fresh look at the financial provision available to the Borders health board and the time scale that it is asked to observe. The issues at stake are important, particularly to the patients whom we all seek to serve. I hope that his comments will relieve some of the anxiety felt in the Borders health board.
  2.10 pm
  Sir David Steel: I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire (Mr. Kirkwood) on his initiative in securing this Adjournment debate, even though, like the Minister, I had planned to be elsewhere. I wish to reinforce my hon. Friend's general comments and to outline the way in which the proposals will affect my constituency.
  Whereas my hon. Friend spoke of a substantial shift from the public to the private sector in his constituency if the proposals are implemented, such a shift would not take place in my constituency. Rather, national health service provision for long-stay elderly patients would be totally eliminated and replaced by a series of private sector proposals. Is that the Government's intention? If so, I have never understood why, on the one hand, the Government are screwing down the expenditure of all health boards—they call it careful control and budgeting, but it is a constraint on their finances—while, on the other, DSS payments to the private sector for long-stay patients are increasing at an unprecedented rate. I do not understand why the Treasury imposes careful controls in one Ministry while another picks up the tabs and seems to have an open budget. Will the Minister clarify that?
  If the proposals are adopted, will patients in the private sector have the same access to NHS facilities, such as physiotherapy and chiropody, as they enjoy at present? Like my hon. Friend the Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire, I pay tribute to the private sector. Indeed, opened the only purpose-built private nursing home in my constituency, and it is a good one. However, there is no guarantee that, if the private sector suddenly expands into all hospitals, as envisaged in the Borders proposals, the same standards will be maintained. We all know of examples in other parts of the country where the private sector has fallen down.
  It would be wrong to suggest that general practitioners in my constituency are totally opposed to the idea of independent community trusts, but they are certainly not enthusiastic about them, for one obvious reason: they would turn GPs into business managers and that is not why they trained for the medical profession. They feel that the Government want to secure care of the elderly on the cheap by turning GPs into business managers and perhaps then paying for staff. The same staff may find employment elsewhere but under worse pay and conditions than they enjoy in the NHS.
  The proposals will mean a sudden dislocation of staff and patients. I would welcome the re-opening of the Galashiels and the Selkirk cottage hospitals. They are suitable places for GP beds and for care of the elderly. Indeed, they are more suitable in the long run than the more distant hospital at Huntlyburn. How they are to be reopened—under what authority, control and budget—is extremely important.
  A letter from GPs in Galashiels said:
  "The need to abandon the long-established principle of NHS provision for continuing medical care of the elderly in such a precipitate manner to satisfy short-term political/ financial expediency seems to us to be difficult to justify. We feel this demand by the Government should be resisted by the Board."
  That is important, and I am glad that the Minister now has the opportunity to clarify what lies behind the proposals.
  2.14 pm
  The Minister of State, Scottish Office (Mr. Michael Forsyth): I am grateful to the hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire (Mr. Kirkwood) for raising this subject, as it allows me to put on record important facts about the funds available to the Borders health board and the interesting and exciting changes proposed for long-stay services.
  I hesitate to question what the right hon. Member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale (Sir D. Steel) said about his constituency, but I understood that Hay Lodge hospital in Peebles was in his constituency. It had 48 beds for long-term care of the elderly, and I do not believe that there are proposals to change that. I was a little puzzled by the right hon. Gentleman's statement that there would be no provision in his constituency.
  Sir David Steel: I was referring to Ettrick and Lauderdale.
  Mr. Forsyth: The right hon. Gentleman must not forget Peebles.
  It should be made clear that Borders health board has sufficient resources to provide excellent services. The board is funded no differently from any other in Scotland. It does not have a persistent financial problem; nor is there any evidence that it is mismanaging the funds allocated to it. For the financial year 1991–92, Borders has been allocated nearly £38 million—an increase of 11·1 per cent. over the previous year's allocation and the highest increase of any health board in Scotland. In real terms, the increase in the revenue allocation mode to Borders health board since 1979–80 has been 63·7 per cent.
  What the board has not yet done fully is to adjust the pattern of its services to take into account the opening of Borders general hospital in 1988. The board recognised from the outset that that hospital would be more expensive to run than the facilities that it replaced. That is not surprising, because the new hospital was designed to provide many more facilities locally so that the people of the borders did not have to travel to Edinburgh for relatively routine health care. It was also designed to provide facilities to a much higher standard than the cottage hospitals which it replaced.
  Part of the cost of the new hospital was met from closing a number of small hospitals and part was met from adjustments made to the revenue allocations of the Lothian and Borders health boards to reflect the fact that people are now treated locally. In addition, Borders health board stands to benefit from the different arrangements that we are gradually introducing for distributing funds to health boards—it is called moving to share parity and was mentioned by the hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire. However, even taking all those factors into account, Borders health board needed to adjust the pattern of its services to ensure that the new facilities of Borders general hospital were used most appropriately and that in the long term the resources required to operate them were generated by the board.
  Another factor to be taken into account is the introduction of the internal market. With effect from this April, health boards, as the hon. Gentleman said, will become the purchasers of services for their community. Their task is to assess the health needs of the populations they serve and to arrange to meet those needs in the most effective—including cost-effective—way by contracting to
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  purchase services from a variety of providers. With effect from April 1992, those contracts will be based on real money. Clearly, for this system to work properly, health boards need to have their incomes and expenditure in balance.
  We have therefore told health boards generally that they should aim to have their incomes and expenditure in balance by the end of the 1991–92 financial year. This applies to all health boards and not just Borders. Health boards generally understand and accept the need for this and are working towards putting themselves in that position. Like all other health boards, Borders health board needs to do that.
  All that is by way of background to explain that the board's proposals are not a sudden response to an unexpected crisis, but are the next logical step in a long-term pattern of adjustments to services to take into account what is required and what is now available.
  Three principles underlie the proposals of Borders health board. The first is that its facilities should be used in the most appropriate fashion—in other words, Borders general hospital should not be used to provide long-stay care for the elderly.
  Secondly, associated specialties should be located together so far as is possible. An example of that is the desirability of bringing psycho-geriatric assessment facilities into the Borders general hospital alongside the existing geriatric assessment facilities. Finally, it is also important that long-stay care facilities for the elderly and for psycho-geriatric patients should be provided as close as possible to the local communities. Borders health board has a long tradition in the field of mental handicap of providing local facilities rather than institutional care, and that needs to be continued and developed.
  Therefore, the board proposes to create long-stay accommodation for psycho-geriatric patients in Kelso by upgrading Kelso cottage hospital and transferring general practitioner beds from there to the Inch hospital in Kelso. It also proposes to recreate long-stay accommodation for the elderly in Selkirk and Galashiels. This would fulfil the commitment that the board gave some time ago to reopen these facilities. It also provides an opportunity to transfer long-stay accommodation for the elderly from Borders general hospital, where it is inappropriately located, to local communities. This in turn offers an opportunity to use more effectively the accommodation at Borders general hospital.
  The board has a variety of proposals in mind for this. First, it is considering transferring the psycho-geriatric assessment facilities, which are currently housed in poor-quality accommodation at Dingleton hospital, to the Borders general hospital. That would mean that all the board's geriatric and psycho-geriatric assessment facilities were located alongside one another. This is a much better pattern of provision and one which I think would be generally welcomed. The board is also considering an expansion of ophthalmology at Borders general hospital, which is one of its major priorities and which would consolidate and improve on the progress that the board has already made in reducing waiting lists for this specialty. To bring about these changes, the board plans capital investment at Kelso cottage hospital, at Inch hospital and probably also at Galashiels.
  The board's consultation document rightly recognises that its role for the future is to assess the needs of its population and to purchase the best pattern of care to

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  meet those needs. However, the facilities that the board secures for its population do not need to be owned or managed by the board itself. That is particularly true in the case of care for the elderly, where there is often a fairly even balance between the need for medical care and the need for social care.
  Therefore, I welcome the fact that the board's consultation document proposes the establishment of local trusts in a variety of areas. The trusts would be voluntary bodies, which would operate under the terms of the Registered Nursing Homes Act 1938. The board would be responsible for registering and inspecting the facilities provided by the trusts and would by that means, and through the contracts which it would negotiate, be able to specify the standards of care which it requires and to monitor that they are being achieved in practice.
  Mr. Kirkwood: I am listening carefully to the Minister, and there is much substance in what he says. However, model trusts offering voluntary or private sector care will take a long time to set up, and the time to do that sensibly does not seem to be available.
  Mr. Forsyth: As I have said, that cannot be done out of the blue, but it will result from the strategic approach of the board. I know that the hon. Gentleman is keen to see that there is no disruption of services as a result of the changes. He should appreciate that all health boards are in the same position and that it is important for them to move towards the policy objectives. I would not agree to any changes because of financial imperatives if they resulted in a reduction in patient care which could be avoided if the matter were to be considered over a longer time.
  I cannot give the hon. Gentleman an assurance that the Borders, any more than any other health board, will be off the hook. These matters are addressed to getting the best value for patients and the best patient care—something which the board has not made a lot of progress towards achieving. I hope that that will reassure the hon. Gentleman to some extent.
  Before the hon. Gentleman intervened, I was discussing the establishment of the local trusts. I believe that the proposal will build on the wide range of voluntary and private sector facilities that already exist in the Borders, and have for some time. I hope that it will receive a positive response from the communities concerned.
  The hon. Gentleman also asked about the timetable to which the board is working. The measures that it is proposing could have been taken some time ago. It is important that the board's income and expenditure are in balance by the end of 1991–92. It would be too early to conclude that it was beyond the capability of Borders health board to achieve that. However, once the consultation process is over, the board may conclude that some of its ideas require further consideration before they
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  can be pursued, and others may take longer to determine than had previously been thought. The board needs to make an assessment of the alternative steps that it might take, at least in the short term, to ensure that it is living within its means.
  I should be keen to ensure that my officials keep in close touch with the Borders health board, and continue to do so throughout the financial year. If problems arise, they would be ready to discuss them with the board. I know that the hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale are assiduous in looking after the interests of their constituencies. I should be happy to receive representations about any constituency difficulties.
  The board's proposals are not a panic response to a crisis, but a step along the road to implementing the board's long-term strategy for its services. There are many positive aspects to the board's proposals. Long-term geriatric care and psycho-geriatric care will be provided locally. It will be possible for geriatric and psycho-geriatric facilities to be located together at the Borders general hospital. That represents a major improvement in services. Furthermore, no closures are proposed.
  Sir David Steel: Will the Minister deal with my points about who will be running the trusts, and whether general practitioners are expected to do so?
  Mr. Forsyth: It would not be helpful for me to express a view on that, because the board will need to reach its own conclusion—the proposal has come from the board—and is still consulting. Although the board has not yet reached conclusions, I am sure that the general manager or the chairman of the board would be happy to discuss the matter with the right hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Kirkwood: Will the Minister say a word about the use of Department of Social Security money? We are concerned that the use by health boards of income support to provide health care on the cheap for the elderly should not be done without proper consultation and discussion.
  Mr. Forsyth: I noted the points made about the topping-up of provision through the DSS. I share the hon. Gentleman's concern and I should be happy to consider the matter in the future. It is important that resources are deployed in a cost-effective way that provides the best standard of care. Our proposals for community care, which will come fully into operation in 1993, will mean that assessment and financing will be in the hands of the local authorities, and the resources will be transferred from the DSS to deal with that. The right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Gentleman were pointing to an apparently anomalous position which is worthy of further consideration. I am happy to give an undertaking to give that consideration.

  UN Decade of International Law
  2.30 pm
  Mr. Peter Archer: I am grateful for this opportunity, principally because it enables me to invite the Minister to assure the House that he and his colleagues have been reflecting carefully on the subject of the debate, and also to tell us what measures they propose to support the United Nations initiative. It is a subject that has received little notice, except in the most reflective and informed sections of the media, yet it could change the course of human history.
  Sometimes, events come together to make possible the next great step in human progress. They create what Shakespeare's Cassius called
  "a tide in the affairs of men."
  We have seen that tide flowing during the past two years. The Gulf war has demonstrated how a small nation is at the mercy of a powerful neighbour, and how people can find themselves projected into a tyranny, unless the international community comes together to prevent it. When it does come together, not only can it prevent one act of tyranny, it can establish a precedent. It can change human thinking and it can lay the foundations for new institutions.
  That was possible in Kuwait because two other conditions co-existed—the cold war had ended and Saddam Hussein, by his conduct, had isolated himself from all decent company. However, even then there were problems. No international force was available and no quick response was possible, except from individual nations—in this case, the United Kingdom and the United States. It could be pointed out that the dedication of the United States to international law has been somewhat selective in the past, and it could be suggested that it may have been motivated more by considerations connected with oil wells than with the springs of justice. In the event, international law was vindicated, but we cannot be sure that it will happen next time. Still less can we be sure that a similar tragic war will not be necessary again.
  If the world is to be made safe for small and vulnerable nations, if the lives of young people are not to be sacrificed in future wars, and if families are not to have their homes devastated and their safety placed at risk, it is not enough to regret the cost of the Gulf war—we need to seize on the commitment to enforce international law while it still breathes, and to construct the machinery of law and order globally, just as our ancestors constructed it in this country 500 years ago. Governments are not likely to agree to new institutions or to an effective enforcement machinery when they are already embroiled in a crisis, when they have taken up positions and when emotions are running high. The time to work on all that is in the relative tranquillity between crises, when arguments about sanity and justice have a prospect of getting through. That is when we need to reflect on the international rule of law.
  We do not need so much to formulate new rules for international law—there is a substantial and comprehensive body of international law, although there are areas that need to be supplemented by new conventions and agreements—the most pressing need is to ensure that it is effective. Already, national sovereignty in the absolute terms envisaged in the 19th century has been reduced to safer proportions. The most recalcitrant and wilful of states is now constrained by the need to maintain a
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  measure of good will among the international community. However, we have just been made aware that it is an uncertain constraint, because it depends on the existence of a consensus among the family of nations.
  Yet each time that the law is enforced, each time that it is shown that anarchism does not pay, each time that it is emphasised that those who observe international law are not penalised while their less scrupulous competitors gain an advantage, confidence in international law is reinforced.
  A legal system is like currency—its acceptance is almost wholly proportionate to the confidence that people have in it. That requires progress on a number of fronts. First, the United Nations needs to operate in a crisis decisively and quickly, and that will require national Governments to lay on the line a little more of their sovereignty. It may mean considering abolishing the veto in the Security Council.
  Secondly, we need a greater sharing of the burden. If the bulk of the cost is borne by the United States, it is hardly surprising that policy should sometimes be decided on the hoof by American officials. It means devising speedier procedures for resolving internationsl disputes. The preparation for international tribunals of long, careful and scholarly memoranda and responses may have to give way just a little to the need for expedition. We may need to make greater use of oral argument.
  But above all, we need to work towards a situation where the capacity to make war is removed from nation states and invested in an international authority. Of course, that will need to be a gradual process, proceeding in parallel with the building of confidence. We could begin by providing a modest permanent peace keeping force directly controlled by the United Nations and not dependent on the whim of specific Governments in a particular situation. To have to create a force from scratch whenever there is an emergency is like advertising for firemen when a fire has already broken out.
  That is not an idea for which I claim any originality. It has been ventilated by a great cloud of witnesses from St. Augustine, Kant, Tennyson, Attlee and, most recently, one of our former colleagues here, Henry Usborne, who in his 80s has produced his book, "Prescription for Peace". One condition, as he points out, is that national Governments would need to be assured that the international authority would concern itself only with maintaining law and order and would not seek to make policies in other areas of activity and to force them upon unwilling nation states.
  That is not to say that we should have no international order except a minimalist one. The maintenance of law and order, vital as it is, is not the only function for which we need an effective international law. Events crowd upon us to illustrate the widening sector of human affairs which needs to be regulated on a global basis. If individuals are to be brought to account for crimes against the fundamentals of civilisation, that cannot be left to the tribunals set up for the purpose each time there is an outrage. That would be seen as victors' justice. We have seen the outcry that arises when it is proposed to try them in the domestic tribunals of a particular state.
  This is the moment to establish an international criminal court with a clear jurisdiction. That again is not an idea for which I claim the copyright. It was being debated in the United Nations as long ago as 1947. The debate was frustrated by the cold war. Now is our chance to begin again.

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  Every day, we see examples of the need for a coherent body of international law to protect the environment. If every problem requires the convening of a new conference with a new round of bargaining, every Government concerned to concede as little as possible, and no one willing to contribute the resources that may be needed, each new problem will meet with a response that is too little and too late.
  If time permitted, I could entertain the House with a whole spate of human activities that require a form of global regulation. The liquidation of third-world debt; the harmonisation of tariff barriers; common safety standards; international measures to combat terrorism; the protection of human rights—all presuppose the development of an effective international law.
  Despite what I said a few moments ago, we need to look at the substantive context of international law. Classical international law is about ensuring that we keep off one another's backs; that each state can do its own thing without being impeded. It embodies the ideology of individuals. What the 21st century will need is a body of law about positive co-operation; about sharing; about protecting posterity; about a common concern for the planet.
  The European Community has shown that nations can embark on a course of positive co-operation. The conference on security and co-operation in Europe has seen the nations of eastern and western Europe, together with the United States and Canada, discussing the ground rules of civilisation for the next generation.
  The confederation of European Churches demonstrated in Basel in 1989 that there can be a meeting of cultures and creeds in the pursuit of justice and peace.
  The General Assembly of the United Nations has called for a decade of international law to promote the acceptance of, and respect for, the principles of international law, to develop codification, to promote methods for the peaceful settlement of disputes and to encourage the wider study of the subject.
  I note that Ireland has responded on behalf of the European Community, but I hope that that document does not exhaust the intellectual, moral and political resources of western Europe. If the world's diplomats have no original ideas, the Association of World Federalists has proposed a number of specific ideas. Surely they merit discussion?
  Perhaps the Minister—admittedly after the recess—can have a word with his right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science, who seems hell-bent on making the core history syllabus appear totally irrelevant to the children at the receiving end. Perhaps he can tell him that one of the purposes of the decade is to promote education on the subject.
  The vision of an age of universal co-operation, which has been offered to the world by seers and poets through the centuries, could be within reach. Only a fool would pretend that it would be easy, but if we want to pass on that legacy to our children, we shall have to pay the price. If we want to live in a peaceful world, we shall all have to give up the right of being quarrelsome. If we want to live in a just world, we shall all have to give up the right of being selfish.
  I believe that future historians will view this issue as the turning point in the saga of human survival, as the vital
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  issue of our generation, and they will judge us by whether we seize the opportunity available or whether we miss the tide.
  Britain still has an important role, because our voice is still listened to wherever people gather together to discuss such subjects, and especially legal subjects. The United Kingdom Government could hold up a torch to light the way forward. I invite the Minister to tell the House what we are doing about it.
  2.42 pm
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Mark Lennox-Boyd): I am grateful to the right hon. and learned Member for Warley, West (Mr. Archer) for the opportunity to speak on this important subject. He made it clear that it was appropriate that we should be debating this subject in the context of recent events. Undoubtedly, I also agree with his contention that the Security Council's response, being immediate, was a clear recognition that Iraq's actions were not only a challenge to the United Nations but a direct and fundamental attack on the principles of international law. Therefore, it was especially welcome that the Security Council, through a unique and comprehensive series of decisions since last August, should have shown that it was determined to restore the fabric of international legality and, if necessary, to take stern measures to enforce those decisions.
  I agree with the right hon. and learned Gentleman that we should consider these matters during the relative tranquillity between crises. Therefore, I congratulate him on bringing the matter before the House today.
  I shall be dealing with one or two of the right hon. and learned Gentleman's points at length, but, first, let me give a little of the background. By a resolution in 1989, the General Assembly of the United Nations declared the period from 1990 to 1999 the United Nations Decade of International Law. That same resolution stated that the main purposes of the decade were
  "to promote acceptance of and respect for the principles of international law;
  to promote means and methods for the peaceful settlement of disputes between States, including resort to and full respect for the International Court of Justice;
  to encourage the progressive development of international law and its codification;
  to encourage the teaching, study, dissemination and wider appreciation of international law."
  The right hon. and learned Gentleman mentioned that. The Government strongly support all those objectives.
  In 1990, the General Assembly adopted a programme for the first two years of the decade. The programme, which is rather detailed, envisages full co-operation with other international and regional organisations, and with such eminent private institutions as the International Law Association, the Institute of International Law and national societies.
  It is too early to predict what concrete results will emerge, but I can say that work on the decade has started well. It began as an initiative by the non-aligned countries—welcome evidence of the importance that those countries attach to international law. I am happy to say that the days are past when some developing countries regarded international law and its institutions with suspicion, as something imposed on them by the west. There is also a welcome new emphasis in Soviet policy on the primacy of

  1167
  law, and there has been a radical and welcome change in the approach of many eastern European countries as they free themselves from stale communist dogma.
  The General Assembly has acted by consensus in declaring the decade and in drawing up the programme of activities. Let me stress the importance that we attach to consensus. If the decade is to contribute to the healthy development of international law, it is essential for that consensus to be maintained in every area. The right hon. and learned Gentleman mentioned the issue of an international criminal court.
  We have welcomed the discussion of that issue in the General Assembly, especially in connection with the proposed code of crimes. It would be a major undertaking, and would raise political and practical questions as well as legal and financial ones. Although we are interested in the idea of such a court, we firmly believe that its existence would be justified only if some crimes could not be dealt with effectively by established means.
  The right hon. and learned Gentleman also mentioned a permanent peacekeeping force. Having said that progress should be made by consensus, let me also say that, although the charter provides for forces to be placed under United Nations authority in advance of any conflict, that provision has not yet proved practicable. For the foreseeable future, such action as was taken in the Gulf—fully authorised and endorsed by the United Nations—is more likely to prove feasible.
  Mr. Archer: Surely the argument that such action has not proved practicable—presumably because individual nation states are not prepared to provide the resources—is a bit like saying that the fire brigade has not proved practicable until something actually catches fire.
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I should prefer to put it this way: what proved practical was what happened during recent tragic events. A response was developed by a coalition of forces in the allied community that was backed and underlined by the clearest possible mandate of United Nations resolutions. The way to proceed is on the basis of what has proved itself rather than on a basis that has not proved to be successful in the past.
  The United Kingdom has always played a full role in the discussions on the decade. We co-sponsored the General Assembly resolutions of 1989 and 1990, and we participated actively in the work of the legal committee of the General Assembly and its working group on the subject. We shall continue to do so. That contribution to the decade reflects our contribution to international law more generally. The Government are committed to upholding the rule of law in international affairs and fostering good government and a respect for human rights. I recall the document "Human Rights in Foreign Policy" that the Foreign Office made public a week or so ago. I expect that the right hon. and learned Gentleman has studied it.
  The United Kingdom has always made a major contribution to the development of international law, both through its practice—now well recorded each year in the "British Year Book of International Law"—and by its role in the elaboration of treaties and as a depository of many important treaties. It is not only in relation to questions of war and peace that international law is important. In
  1168
  today's world, it plays an increasing part in everyday life. In the past year or so, we have made an important contribution to the elaboration of worldwide conventions on drug trafficking and the marking of explosives and to treaties relating to the environment and disarmament.
  If we look back over a longer period, we see that we have played, and that we continue to play, a major role in the Antarctic treaty system and in the law of the sea. Much international law is already of a positive nature—for example, on the environment, drugs and crime prevention. However, I agree that much more could be done. For example, the Government are working very hard on the climate convention.
  The United Kingdom is committed to the peaceful settlement of international disputes. Within the conference on security and co-operation in Europe process—a political rather than a legal process—the conciliation proposals that we put forward last autumn formed the core of the mechanism for settling disputes, agreed by officials at the recent meeting in Valletta. On the legal side, we are encouraged by the increasing number of states that accept the compulsory jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice. In the last couple of years a significant number of additional states have made the necessary declaration. Some of them were developing countries. That is a most welcome trend.
  As the right hon. and learned Gentleman will know, we are the only permanent member of the Security Council that currently accepts the compulsory jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice. We have always accepted its jurisdiction. Therefore, we are well placed to urge all states that have not yet accepted the court's jurisdiction to consider doing so.
  Last year, the Secretary-General of the United Nations established a trust fund to assist developing countries to bring cases before the International Court of Justice by agreement—for example, territorial disputes. The United Kingdom was the first to announce a contribution to the fund. That is a very practical way of encouraging recourse to the court and the rule of law.
  The United Kingdom's contribution to international law goes well beyond the Government. The British Institute of International and Comparative Law, the British branch of the International Law Association, and the many universities which teach international law play an important role and have influence well beyond this country. We are particularly pleased that in February the British judge on the International Court of Justice, Sir Robert Jennings, formerly professor of international law at Cambridge university, was elected president of the court for a three-year term. He is, in fact, the third British president of the court since 1946.
  Successive British members of the United Nations International Law Commission have been influential. The commission has the potential to make further important contributions to the codification and development of international law. We shall make every effort to ensure that the British candidate for the commission, Professor Bowett, is elected this autumn.
  Public awareness of international law has, I believe, never been higher than it is at present. Public awareness is important, for it is ultimately for the people of the various states to ensure, through their elected representatives and through public opinion, that Governments comply with international law. International law will be respected fully only when public opinion in all countries demands that

  1169
  Governments comply not only with the rule of law at home but with the rule of law in international affairs. Debates like this one, stimulated by the United Nations decade of international law, contribute to that end.
  Mr. Ivan Lawrence: My hon. Friend's reply to the debate has been an extremely interesting and most reasoned response to the excellent speech of the right hon. and learned Member for Warley, West (Mr. Archer), but should not the British Government be taking the lead to remedy the outstanding failure of international law to devise a way to stop dictators such as Saddam Hussein destroying their own people? The United Nations has the principle of non-interference in domestic affairs of sovereign nations, which we all understand, but something must be done to enable the United Nations to play some part in stopping such atrocities if we are to have international peace. Are we giving some thought to that, and will we take the lead in that as we have done in recent years in the other excellent activities of the United Nations?
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: My hon. and learned Friend has raised a big issue at the tail end of the debate, but I can assure him that I am not unmindful of what he has said. Earlier today, we had a debate on the Kurdish people in northern Iraq, when similar sentiments were expressed. Without giving any undertakings, I assure my hon. and learned Friend that these matters are not lost on the United Nations. Clearly, we are likely to expect a resolution from the Security Council, perhaps before Easter, dealing with much wider issues in terms of the ceasefire and in respect of the Iraqi forces. I believe that that resolution will include some matters on which I cannot elaborate on this afternoon touching on some of the issues to which my hon. and learned Friend has drawn our attention.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Paul Dean): Before we adjourn, may I wish all right hon. and hon. Members, officials and staff a very happy Easter recess?
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at two minutes to Three o'clock till Monday 15 April, pursuant to the Resolution [14 March].

ATTORNEY-GENERAL

  Legal Aid
  Mr. Fraser
  To ask the Attorney-General if it is his policy to propose a freeze on the upper limits of capital and income beyond which an applicant is not eligible for legal aid.

  The Attorney-General
  No. It is not the Lord Chancellor's policy to freeze the upper limits of capital and income for legal aid eligibility. The Lord Chancellor is conducting a full review of the financial conditions for legal aid. The first stage of the review, covering civil, non-matrimonial legal aid is nearing completion. A consultation paper will be issued containing proposals aimed at targeting legal aid to need and final decisions will be made in the light of the response to this paper.

  Birmingham Pub Bombings
  Mr. Mullin
  To ask the Attorney-General why West Midlands police officers were taking statements regarding the Birmingham pub bombings case in 1987.

  The Attorney-General
  The West Midlands police took statements in respect of the Birmingham pub bombings case in 1987 at the request of the Director of Public Prosecutions.

AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD

  Animals (Live Exports)
  Mr. Kirkwood
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (1) if he will make a statement on progress being made in current EC negotiations to maintain adequate control and protection for the exportation of live horses and ponies after 1992;

  (2) what further representations he has had on the need to maintain existing controls on the exportation of live horses and ponies after 1992; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Maclean
  The Government continue to receive many representations on this subject. In the Community negotiations, which are still at an early stage, the Government will continue to press for the continuation of controls which prevent the export of horses for slaughter.

  Pesticides
  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he now intends to take prosecutions under the Pesticides (Maximum Residue Levels in Food) Regulations 1988; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Gummer
  Prosecutions will be taken under the regulations when appropriate.

  Voluntary Organisations
  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will list in the Official Report the voluntary organisations to which he has given grant aid, including the amounts given in each case, in 1989–90 and 1990–91; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Gummer
  My Department is fully committed to encouraging the work done by the voluntary sector and regularly reviews the grant aid given to voluntary organisations. For 1989–90 and 1990–91 the following organisations benefited by the amounts shown:

  1989–90 £

  1990–91 £

  Dartington Institute (Project Silvanus)

  11,000

  6,250

  Farming and Wildlife Trust

  16,000

  36,000

  National Federation of Young Farmers Clubs

  18,500

  18,962

  National Proficiency Tests Council

  72,670

  115,800

  RURAL (Responsible Use of Resources in Agriculture and on the Land)

  2,000

  2,000

  Orange Juice
  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will list the countries of origin of the orange juice samples which were subjected to laboratory analysis for sugar content; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Gummer
  It is not possible to list the countries of origin.

  The labelling of most of the juices analysed in the recent Ministry survey either stated that the juice came from more than one country or did not indicate the country of origin.

  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what action he intends to take against the suppliers of the orange juice found to breach the Fruit Juice and Nectar Regulations 1977; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Gummer
  The recently reported MAFF survey of orange juice on the United Kingdom market was for surveillance purposes only. Further sampling in compliance with consumer protection law has been carried out, and investigations are continuing.

  Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, further to his answer to the hon. Member for South Shields on 13 March,Official Report, column 570, whether he intends to exhume the bodies of the BSE-confirmed cattle that were buried in 1990 and 1991.

  Mr. Gummer
  No.

  Eggs
  Mr. Cormack
  To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what further plans he has to restrict the import of non-salmonella tested eggs in the United Kingdom.
  483
  Mr. Curry
  There are no restrictions on imports from other Member States, but all consignments of eggs imported into the United Kingdom are tested for salmonella enteritidis.

EDUCATION AND SCIENCE

  Haberdashers' Aske's CTC
  Ms. Ruddock
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether any conditions for the payment of grants to Haberdashers' Aske's city technology college will be placed on the trustees of the Robert Aske's charity.

  Mr. Eggar
  No.

  Ms. Ruddock
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science (1) pursuant to his answer of 6 March,Official Report, column 188, what exact variations from the terms of paragraph 9 of the model CTC/CCTA funding agreement he has included in his agreement to fund the Haberdashers' Aske's city technology college;

  (2) if he will provide a list of all variations and amendments from the model CTC/CCTA funding agreement placed in the Library on 31 October 1990 which have been included in his agreement to fund the Haberdashers' Aske's city technology college.

  Mr. Eggar
  The agreement between the Secretary of State and the Haberdashers' Aske's Hatcham College Trust contains a number of minor variations from the model agreement relating to the special circumstances of this project.

  In paragraph 1, the entry into force of the agreement is made conditional upon the grant of a 99-year lease to the CTC by the Haberdasher's Company, as trustee of the Robert Aske's charity, in a form to be agreed with the Secretary of State.

  Paragraphs 8ii and iii provide that the CTC's contribution to the capital costs of establishing the college shall be the value of a 99-year lease of the site of the Haberdashers' Aske's Hatcham boys' and girls' schools, and 8ii incorporates a mechanism for agreeing the value. Paragraph 8v provides for the Secretary of State's share of the actual costs to be reduced by the amount of difference between the cash limit and the actual costs, if the capital costs finally incurred in establishing the CTC are less than the cash limit.

  In paragraph 9, the words
  "not be expected to exceed the proportion mentioned in paragraph 8iii"

  in line 11 of paragraph 9 have been amended to read
  "in no circumstances be expected to exceed 80 per cent.".

  Similarly, the words
  "the first percentage referred to in paragraph 8iii"
  in the penultimate line of the same paragraph have been amended to read "80 per cent.".

  There are no other changes of substance.

  Ms. Ruddock
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many applicants of each sex and from different ethnic groups there were for places in the first year group the Haberdashers' Aske's city technology college beginning in September 1991; and how many applicants of either sex and from different ethnic groups have now been offered places at the college.
  484
  Mr. Eggar
  The college received a total of 830 applications. Of those interviewed, on observation, the ethnic groupings appeared to be:

  57 asian

  183 afro-caribbean

  280 white

  47 other.

  Of the 90 girls and 90 boys offered places the ethnic groupings, based on the earlier observation, are:

  22 asian

  40 afro-caribbean

  99 white 19 other.

  Sports and Arts Foundation
  Mr. Pendry
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many meetings, and over what time scale, Ministers and officials from his Department held with representatives of the pools companies to discuss the establishing of a new foundation for sport and the arts.

  Mr. Atkins
  No such meetings were held. As the proposals involved a reduction in pool betting duty, the meetings were with Ministers and officials from Her Majesty's Treasury.

  Further Education Colleges
  Mr. Andrew Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science (1) what criteria he has applied to decide whether adult education centres run by local authorities should be included in his proposals to change the status of further education colleges so that they come under a funding council; and if he will make a statement;

  (2) what criteria he has applied to decide whether colleges of higher education run by local authorities should be included in his proposals to change the status of further education colleges so that they come under a funding council; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Eggar
  As my right hon. and learned Friend made clear in his statement to the House on 21 March, the Government propose that all further education colleges offering full-time education should be taken out of local authority control. Most of these colleges make provision for adults, and some offer courses of higher education.

  Arrangements for funding and administering education for adults, both within and outside the new sector, will be discussed in the forthcoming White Paper.

  Science Budget
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science when Her Majesty's Government will be responding to the House of Lords Select Committee on Science and Technology report on the science budget 1991–92.

  Mr. Alan Howarth
  My right hon. and learned Friend is considering the report and will respond in due course.

  Teachers' Pay
  Mr. Pawsey
  To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he has now considered the views expressed by the local authority employers, teacher unions and others on his proposals following the fourth report of the Interim Advisory Committee on School Teachers' Pay and Conditions; and if he will make a statement.
  485
  Mr. Kenneth Clarke
  After careful consideration of the representations I have received I have decided to accept the recommendations contained in the fourth report of the Interim Advisory Committee on School Teachers' Pay and Conditions, but to stage their introduction over the period up to 1 December 1991.

  Drafts of the School Teachers' Pay and Conditions Document 1991, an order which gives effect to this document, and a circular to local education authorities and others, are being sent to the relevant local authority associations, teachers' unions and bodies representing the interests of the governors of voluntary schools and grant-maintained schools inviting their comments by Monday 22 April.

NORTHERN IRELAND

  Estuaries
  Mr. Kilfedder
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will designate the seven estuaries in Northern Ireland as special protection areas to protect habitats and to safeguard wildlife.

  Mr. Needham
  The Department of the Environment for Northern Ireland intends to designate those estuaries which are most significant in terms of their bird populations as special protection areas under the terms of the European Community directive on the conservation of wild birds. Surveying and assessment is proceeding. However, I am not yet in a position to give a precise timetable for the appropriate designations.

  Civil Service
  Mr. Janner
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what steps he has taken to recruit women and members of ethnic minorities in the top grades of employment at his Department.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  The home civil service and the Northern Ireland civil service are fully committed to ensuring equality of opportunity for all applicants including women and ethnic minorities. Both civil services are equal opportunities employers and this is emphasised fully in all the recruiting campaigns and advertising.

  If direct recruitment for certain senior posts in the Northern Ireland Office were to be necessary, it would be conducted with guidance from the Civil Service Commission.

  Within Northern Ireland itself religion is a more significant equality of opportunity consideration than ethnic origin. Consequently the Northern Ireland civil service commissioners have not taken any specific action to recruit members of ethnic minorities in top grades of employment nor have they any plans to do so. Their advertisements, however, state that applications are welcome for men and women.

  Pensioners' Day Centre, Belvoir
  Mr. John D. Taylor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many members there are in the Wednesday day centre for pensioners in the community centre at Belvoir estate, Castlereagh borough; how many new members were approved in the past 12 months; how 486
  many applications to join the club are under consideration; and what effort is made to make the existence of this club known to pensioners living in Belvoir and district.

  Mr. Hanley
  At present there are a total of 43 people on the attendance roll of the centre with an average weekly attendance of 39. Five people applied for membership during the last 12 months and three of these have already been placed at the centre and can be offered a place. Two people are currently being considered for membership.

  The pensioners in the area are made aware of the club's existence by current members, and social work and community nursing staff. It is also promoted through the East Belfast and Castlereagh Senior Citizens Amalgam.

  Social Fund
  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will publish a table in the Official Report to show for each Department of Health and Social Security office in Northern Ireland for the last two years and the current year and how many (a) crisis loans and (b) budgeting loans were (i) applied for in writing and (ii) applied for, or requested verbally, and in each case (1) refused, or, (2) granted; and how many budgeting loans were paid and how many were offered to applicants in lieu of a crisis loan.

  Mr. Hanley
  Information about the number of budgeting loans and crisis loans processed each month, the number awarded and the amount paid for each social security office is available in the Library. The number of applications refused can be derived from these figures. Other information about the method of application and the number of loans offered to applicants in lieu of crisis loans is not available.

  Ulster Savings
  Mr. Hayes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the future of Ulster Savings.

  Dr. Mawhinney
  As part of a programme of policy evaluation a review of Ulster Savings was commissioned in 1989 by the Department of Finance and Personnel.

  Having given careful consideration to the findings of the review, I have decided that with effect from 1 June 1991 no new investment will be accepted in Ulster Savings although existing investments and provisions for reinvestment will be maintained. The Department for National Savings has agreed that with effect from 1 June it will market national savings certificates in Northern Ireland through the Post Office.

  Local Government Finance
  Mr. William Ross
  To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will publish a table in the Official Report to show (a) the total amount to be rebated to ratepayers in Northern Ireland as a consequence of the announcement by his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer regarding reduced local government taxation, 19 March, Official Report, column 180, (b) the average sum for each domestic property in Northern Ireland, (c) the sum for each elector in Northern Ireland and (d) what sum £140 per elector in Northern Ireland represents.
  487
  Dr. Mawhinney
  [holding answer 26 March 1991]: The information is as follows:

  (a) The total reduction in domestic rates in Northern Ireland is £73·23 million.

  (b) This represents an average reduction per ratepayer of approximately £127.

  (c) The sum per elector in Northern Ireland is approximately £65

  (d) The sum of £140 per elector in Northern Ireland would amount to £159 million approximately.

  With regard to (c) and (d) it should be noted that there is no precise analogy between the adjustments in Great Britain and Northern Ireland because of the different financing regimes and the markedly different degree of existing central Government support. In neither case is the reduction in the burden of local finance related directly to the number of electors and the above figures are no basis for comparisons.

WALES

  Vacant Dwellings
  Mr. Gregory
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is his most recent information for the total number of local authority dwellings which are vacant in Wales; if he will list these for the period of(a) under three weeks, (b) four to six weeks, (c) seven weeks to six months, (d) seven months to one year and (e) over one year; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply given to him on 3 December 1990. The following information updates and revises this answer.

  Local authority vacant dwellings at 1 April 1990

  Welsh districts

  At 1 April 19901

  Vacant for more than six months

  Aberconwy

  23

  2

  Alyn and Deeside

  56

  8

  Arfon

  27

  0

  Blaenau Gwent

  124

  2

  Brecknock

  0

  0

  Cardiff

  293

  13

  Carmarthen

  22

  19

  Caredigion

  31

  3

  Colwyn

  26

  0

  Cynon Valley

  184

  44

  Delyn

  47

  7

  Dinefwr

  29

  0

  Dwyfor

  6

  0

  Glyndwr

  58

  0

  Islwyn

  170

  62

  Llanelli

  109

  33

  Lliw Valley

  46

  29

  Meirionnydd

  7

  2

  Merthyr Tydfil

  106

  1

  Monmouth

  74

  0

  Montgomeryshire

  36

  0

  Neath

  68

  1

  Newport

  96

  16

  Ogwr

  143

  0

  Port Talbot

  291

  0

  Preseli Pembrokeshire

  26

  1

  Radnorshire

  9

  0

  Rhondda

  83

  13

  Rhuddlan

  28

  0

  Rhymney Valley

  64

  0

  South Pembrokeshire

  6

  0

  Swansea

  134

  0

  Taff Ely

  125

  0

  488

  Welsh districts

  At 1 April 19901

  Vacant for more than six months

  Torfaen

  169

  31

  Vale of Glamorgan

  40

  8

  Wrexham Maelor

  229

  25

  Ynys Môn

  57

  7

  Wales Total

  3,042

  327

  1 Calculated using provisional stock estimates for 1 April 1990.

  Open Heart Surgery
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales, further to his answer of 21 March,Official Report, column 177, when the central collection of statistics on number of open heart surgery cases carried out in Wales was started in the form used in his answer.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  Open heart surgery in the NHS in Wales is provided by South Glamorgan health authority. Reflecting the central funding of the authority to provide the service, information on the number of operations carried out has been routinely collected by the Welsh Office since 1984, supplementary to the hospital activity analysis data provided by district health authorities.

  Railways
  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what measures he has taken to improve the rail infrastructure of Wales.

  Mr. David Hunt
  Improvement of rail infrastructure is essentially a matter for British Rail. However, my predecessors and I have given credit approvals to fund capital investment by Mid Glamorgan and South Glamorgan county councils in the valleys rail network.

  Health Authorities
  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many members of health authorities in Wales have interests in property development and in business generally.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The Department does not seek information about the commercial interests of members when making appointments. However, the Regional and Distict Health Authorities (Membership and Procedure) Regulations 1990 require a chairman or member to disclose any pecuniary interest in any contract, proposed contract or other matter under discussion at a meeting and in general preclude the chairman or member from taking any further active part in the related debate or decisions.

  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how much health authority property has been sold in each of the health authorities in Wales in each of the years from 1980 to 1990 inclusive.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The information is not immediately available in the form requested, but the table details the amount of NHS land sold in each DHA from 1980 to 1990.
  489

  NHS land sales 1980–90 (hectares)

  1980

  1981

  1982

  1983

  1984

  1985

  1986

  1987

  1988

  1989

  1990

  Clwyd

  0·4428

  —

  —

  0·3143

  0·2040

  0·1847

  0·1544

  0·4943

  0·9308

  0·3084

  —

  East Dyfed

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  5·0751

  0·0250

  1·2310

  0·2928

  0·1640

  —

  Gwent

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  0·6950

  0·0960

  0·7141

  —

  0·118

  Gwyneddd

  0·0043

  —

  —

  —

  0·3908

  —

  0·0324

  —

  0·2970

  0·1270

  0·192

  Mid Glamorgan

  0·2518

  2·9948

  —

  0·1710

  0·5535

  1·0328

  0·7650

  1·2158

  0·2343

  0·1817

  0·270

  Powys

  11·9892

  —

  0·2516

  0·2734

  0·3047

  0·0660

  —

  —

  4·4117

  —

  —

  South Glamorgan

  —

  2·2620

  2·3787

  2·0697

  —

  —

  0·2466

  0·0473

  0·0340

  —

  —

  West Glamorgan

  3·9510

  0·0995

  0·2870

  0·1615

  0·7335

  0·2808

  —

  0·9560

  0·0784

  4·2040

  —

  Pembrokeshire

  1 1·3560

  1 37·6372

  —

  —

  —

  —

  0·0243

  0·1644

  0·0650

  0·0772

  0·304

  Totals

  17·9951

  42·9935

  2·9173

  2·9899

  2·1865

  6·6394

  1·9427

  4·2048

  7·0581

  5·0623

  0·884

  1 Disposals by former Dyfed health authority.

  Green Belt Legislation
  Mr. Barry Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he proposes to publish a green belt Bill; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  Green belts are established through development plans. The Assembly of Welsh Counties has accepted my invitation to look at the role green belts might play in the planning and development of Wales, as part of the review of strategic planning guidance. I expect to receive a report from the assembly later in the spring, which will inform my consideration of the need to issue further advice on the subject.

  Parking Offences
  Mr. Tony Banks
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many parking tickets were received and paid by his Department in each year since 1988 in respect of official vehicles.

  Mr. David Hunt
  One in 1990.

  Company Takeovers
  Mr. Alan Williams
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many Welsh companies have been bought by European companies and how many by other overseas companies in each of the last two years.

  Mr. David Hunt
  Information known to Welsh Development International on acquisitions of companies with operations in Wales is as follows: in 1989, four acquisitions by companies based elsewhere in Europe and three by companies based in other countries; in 1990, four acquisitions by companies based elsewhere in Europe and 10 by companies based in other countries.

  Environmental Health Officers
  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many environmental health officers have been employed by local authorities in Wales for each year since 1980.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  The number of local authority non-manual staff employed in environmental health in

  Health authority

  Valid appeals lodged

  Appeals subsequently withdrawn

  Appeals held

  Successful appeals

  Clwyd

  75

  4

  12

  —

  East Dyfed

  82

  1

  8

  —

  Gwent

  258

  2

  6

  3

  Gwynedd

  288

  48

  59

  16

  490
  Wales for each of the last 10 years is given in the table. It is not possible to identify separately the number of environmental health officers included in this category.

  Number of non-manual staff employed in environmental health1

  Total Wales

  Numbers

  1981

  769

  1982

  748

  1983

  740

  1984

  796

  1985

  856

  1986

  822

  1987

  832

  1988

  826

  1989

  850

  1990

  2867

  1 Full-time equivalent as at March for each year.

  2 Provisional.

  Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales further to his answer to the hon. Member for South Shields on 13 March,Official Report, columns 529–30 whether he intends to exhume the bodies of the BSE confirmed cattle that were buried in 1990 and 1991.

  Mr. David Hunt
  No.

  Nurse Gradings
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will publish for each health authority area in Wales(a) the number of appeals that have been submitted to his Department by nursing staff disputing the grade to which they have been assigned, (b) the number of those appeals that have been determined, (c) the number of appeals that have been successful, (d) the mean median and modal times taken for those appeals to be determined and (e) the number of appeals that have been withdrawn.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  Relevant numbers of nurse clinical grading appeals made at the all-Wales level to the Welsh appeals committee for each health authority are as shown in the following table:
  491

  Health authority

  Valid appeals lodged

  Appeals subsequently withdrawn

  Appeals held

  Successful appeals

  Mid Glamorgan

  180

  —

  —

  —

  Pembrokeshire

  28

  —

  —

  —

  Powys

  166

  2

  19

  13

  South Glamorgan

  200

  9

  23

  —

  West Glamorgan

  129

  1

  24

  2

  WALES TOTALS

  1,406

  67

  151

  34

  The time taken to process an appeal depends crucially upon the provision of documentation from both staff organisations and management and upon the availability of representatives of both sides to act as panel members. Having regard to postponement and adjournments, the calculation of an average process time would not be meaningful.

  Councils (Dissolution)
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received on the subject of the dissolution of Welsh town and community councils; and if he will indicate the nature of those representations.

  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  We have received a number of letters expressing concern. Questions have been submitted by hon. Members, and my right hon. Friend has met the hon. Gentleman and representatives of the community council associations.

  Minor Works Grant
  Mr. Ron Davies
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is his estimate of the number of persons currently eligible for minor works grant who will lose their eligibility for such grant by virtue of the new poll tax reduction scheme.

  Mr. David Hunt
  The information is not held centrally.

  Local Government Finance
  Mr. Dewar
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will publish in the Official Report a table showing for each year from 1967–68 to 1991–92 the aggregate grant percentage for rate/revenue support grant.

  Mr. David Hunt
  I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply given to the hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd) on 14 March 1991 by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State. Information on a consistent basis is not available before 1981–82.

  Mr. Dewar
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will publish in the Official Report an analysis showing in the years 1990–91 and 1991–92 for each Welsh local authority and for Wales as a whole (a) the total standard spending and standard spending assessment, (b) the total standard spending and standard spending assessment expressed as pounds per capita, pounds per adult and pounds per community charge unit, (c) the community charge required to be levied to finance standard spending assessment, (d) the long-run' community charge required to be levied to finance standard spending assessment, (e) the long-run' community charge required to be levied to finance expenditure 1 to 5 per cent. and 10 per cent. below and 1 to 5 and 10 per cent. above standard spending
  492
  assessment, (f) the proportion of expenditure which would be financed by Government grant at each of the spending levels specified in (e), (g) the level of expenditure as a proportion of standard spending assessment which would require a zero community charge and (h) that level of expenditure as a percentage of standard spending assessment which would require a zero long-run' community charge.

  Mr. David Hunt
  I will write to the hon. Gentleman and place a copy of my letter in the Library of the House.

  A465
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is the current planned date for commencement for the A465 scheme between Aberdulais and Glynneath.

  Sir Wyn Roberts
  The 1991 supplement to "Roads in Wales" published in February shows the scheme as planned to start in the short term, that is, before April 1994.

  Earlswood Roundabout, Swansea
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when and what short-term measures are to be introduced to deal with the long delays experienced by traffic leaving Swansea at the Earlswood roundabout.

  Mr. David Hunt
  Delays due to the construction of the Earlswood to Lonlas section of the M4 have now been overcome. Earlswood roundabout itself is, however, a source of delay and it is being kept under study in conjunction with the Baglan and Briton Ferry roundabouts, which have already been improved.

  It is intended that by 1993 Earlswood roundabout will have part-time traffic signals and will be redesigned to provide better traffic flow.

  Youth Training
  Mr. Ron Davies
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the level and quality of youth training opportunities in Rhymney valley.

  Mr. David Hunt
  It is the responsibility of the Mid Glamorgan training and enterprise council to ensure that good quality youth training opportunities are provided at a level sufficient for the needs and circumstances of the Rhymney valley.

  Prince of Wales Hospital, Rhydlafar
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the effect of the closure of the children's ward at the Prince of Wales hospital, Rhydlafar, Cardiff, on the quality of facilities and treatment for children with orthopaedic ailments in Wales.
  493
  Mr. Nicholas Bennett
  South Glamorgan health authority has assured my right hon. Friend that the transfer of the children's orthopaedic facility at the Prince of Wales hospital, Rhydlafar, to the Cardiff royal infirmary should enhance the service available to children in Wales. It points out that the infirmary is the main centre for trauma and orthopaedic care in the district. As such, it has a supporting academic department, and on-site access to a wide range of support and diagnostic facilities, including the most modern body-scanning technology in Wales.

  The health authority also emphasise the benefits, in safety terms, of having anaesthetic cover and emergency services on site.

  Furthermore, the children involved will be accommodated in the authority's most recently upgraded and modernised children's ward. This includes a range of cubicles and bedded areas, together with a separate unit for teenagers, a children's play area, purpose-built accommodation for parents and a well-established ward-based educational service.

  Benefit Eligibility
  Mr. Ron Davies
  To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list those benefits or grants available to persons in receipt of poll tax benefit by virtue of their eligibility for such benefit.

  Mr. David Hunt
  The benefits and grants available to persons in receipt of community charge benefit are matters for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Security.

OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT

  Debt Reduction
  Mrs. Clwyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what action Her Majesty's Government are taking to encourage Paris Club members to give positive consideration to the Trinidad terms.

  Mrs. Chalker
  There is a growing consensus among Government creditors on the need to adopt a more generous treatment for the poorest countries than the maximum one-third debt reduction afforded by the Toronto terms. The need for a stock of debt approach is also increasingly being realised. Her Majesty's Government will continue to urge other creditors to agree quickly to a new treatment containing the most important elements of the United Kingdom proposals, launched by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, as Chancellor, in Trinidad last September.

  Mrs. Clwyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will list the Stabex replenishment obligations owed by all African, Caribbean and Pacific countries indicating which obligations are covered by the proposed debt reduction scheme put forward by Commissioner Marin.

  Mrs. Chalker
  The latest figures available from the Commission show the value of all actual and potential reconstitution obligations by the developing countries under Stabex as 899 mecu. (One mecu is worth approximately £0·7 million.)

  There are three categories, as follows:
  494

  Transfers for which reconstitution requirements have not already been notified

  Mecu

  Jamaica

  4·3

  Madagascar

  0·4

  Senegal

  49·5

  54·2

  Transfers for which reconstitution requirements have not yet been decided by the ACP-EEC council of Ministers

  Congo

  7·4

  Fiji

  2·1

  Gabon

  5·7

  Ghana

  25·6

  Liberia

  7·6

  Madagascar

  1·7

  Senegal

  66·1

  116·2

  Transfers for which it is not yet possible to determine what proportion would be repayable (which will depend on the trend in prices for the commodities covered, the quantities exported and the competitiveness of the ACP countries

  Cameroon

  180·8

  Cote d'Ivoire

  311·0

  Fiji

  0·7

  Gabon

  3·1

  Ghana

  47·6

  Kenya

  61·5

  Madagascar

  5·5

  Mauritius

  2·9

  Papua New Guinea

  80·8

  Senegal

  34·7

  728·6

  Total

  899·0

  All of the above transfers are covered by the provision of the proposed debt reduction scheme put forward by Commissioner Marin.

  Mrs. Clwyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will make it his policy to encourage greater flexibility in repayments and a reduction of International Monetary Fund and World bank debt.

  Mrs. Chalker
  All creditors regard the preferred creditor status of the international financial institutions as an integral part of the debt strategy. Flexibility in repayment of arrears to the International Monetary Fund would weaken its liquidity and threaten its financial standing. Any similar move on World bank debt would jeopardise the very favourable terms on which it can currently obtain finance from the market, and therefore increase interest charges to all its borrowers.

  Mrs. Clwyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what action Her Majesty's Government are taking to encourage a response from banks on commercial debt comparable to Paris Club action on official debt, as outlined by the Prime Minister, then Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his Trinidad terms speech on 19 September 1990.

  Mrs. Chalker
  Arrangements for dealing with commercial bank debt must be a matter for the parties to the loans to negotiate between them, but we continue to urge
  495
  comparability of treatment between official and commercial debt. We welcome the increasing use of debt reduction in commercial debt deals negotiated under the "Brady initiative".

  Ethiopia
  Mr. Cohen
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what consideration he is giving to assistance to the mining industry in Ethiopia.

  Mrs. Chalker
  I have no plans at present to give bilateral assistance to the mining industry in Ethiopia. The European Community's programme of development assistance to Ethiopia includes a project at the Lega Dembi goldmine in Sidamo.

  Development Education
  Mrs. Clwyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will publish a table showing the total amount, the percentage of gross national product and the percentage of overseas aid spent on development education by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development Governments in 1988 and 1989.

  Mrs. Chalker
  The information available to the OECD is as follows:

  £ million

  Development awareness

  Percentage GNP

  Percentage oda

  1988

  Australia

  0·10667

  0·0001

  0·02

  Austria

  0·97122

  0·0014

  0·61

  Belgium

  n/a

  Canada

  5·10313

  0·0019

  0·39

  Denmark

  0·83649

  0·0014

  0·16

  Finland

  1·45403

  0·0025

  0·37

  France

  n/a

  —

  —

  Germany

  2·52069

  0·0004

  0·09

  Ireland

  0·37052

  0·0023

  1·35

  Italy

  n/a

  —

  —

  Japan

  n/a

  —

  —

  Netherlands

  n/a

  —

  —

  New Zealand

  0·05053

  0·0002

  0·10

  Norway

  0·71859

  0·0015

  0·14

  Sweden

  2·66104

  0·0027

  0·26

  Switzerland

  0·64000

  0·0006

  0·20

  United Kingdom

  0·85894

  0·0002

  0·06

  United States of America

  n/a

  1989

  Australia

  0·34154

  0·0002

  0·05

  Austria

  1·14661

  0·0015

  0·66

  Belgium

  n/a

  —

  —

  Canada

  6·89187

  0·0021

  0·49

  Denmark

  n/a

  —

  —

  Finland

  0·82946

  0·0012

  0·19

  France

  n/a

  —

  —

  Germany

  n/a

  —

  —

  Ireland

  0·30495

  0·0017

  1·02

  Italy

  n/a

  —

  —

  Japan

  1·15881

  0·0001

  0·02

  Netherlands

  2·12855

  0·0016

  0·17

  New Zealand

  n/a

  —

  —

  Norway

  2·47009

  0·0046

  0·44

  Sweden

  2·52499

  0·0022

  0·23

  Switzerland

  0·65869

  0·0006

  0·19

  United Kingdom

  0·96364

  0·0002

  0·006

  United States of America

  n/a

  —

  —

  496
  These figures may not be strictly comparable given the OECD's widely drawn definition of "development awareness", which could be open to different interpretation by donor countries.

  Mrs. Clwyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how much the Overseas Development Administration has spent on development education in each year since 1979.

  Mrs. Chalker
  Raising awareness in this country of north-south interdependence and development issues is one of the principal objectives of the ODA's public information programme. It features in all ODA publications with a particular focus on schools.

  This financial year, for instance, we have provided a grant of £100,000 to the International Broadcasting Trust towards "The Global Environment", a television series which will be broadcast by BBC Schools Television for the next five years.

  In addition, specific development education grants are made to a wide range of organisations. Total annual expenditure is:

  Financial year

  £

  1978–79

  219,000

  1979–80

  560,000

  1980–81

  413,000

  1981–82

  223,000

  1982–83

  171,000

  1983–84

  106,000

  1984–85

  106,000

  1985–86

  131,000

  1986–87

  106,000

  1987–88

  146,000

  1988–89

  223,000

  1989–90

  138,000

  1990–91

  312,000

  In addition, the ODA provides an annual grant, currently £100,000, to the Overseas Development Institute for certain information and public awareness activities.

  Debt
  Mrs. Clwyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will publish a table showing, for the period 1975 to 1990, the total public and private long-term net transfer of financial resources including both principal repayments and interest repayments on public and private debt, between the United Kingdom and all developing countries, with a breakdown of these totals by continent.

  Mrs. Chalker
  Net official and private flows for the years 1975 to 1989, the most recent year for which figures are available, are:

  £ million

  Year

  Official flows

  Private flows

  (net)

  (net)

  1975

  422

  2,520

  1976

  957

  3,503

  1977

  695

  3,208

  1978

  948

  3,916

  1979

  1,083

  5,277

  1980

  726

  4,527

  1981

  1,265

  4,596

  1982

  1,117

  2,463

  1983

  1,200

  2,813

  497

  Year

  Official flows

  Private flows

  (net)

  (net)

  1984

  1,425

  2,196

  1985

  1,495

  423

  1986

  1,417

  3,144

  1987

  1,310

  819

  1988

  1,666

  787

  1989

  1,857

  396

  The figures are net of principal repayments but not of interest repayments. Data on interest repayments are not available by country.

  Refugees
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent initiatives have been taken by Her Majesty's Government to support refugees abroad.

  Mrs. Chalker
  Her Majesty's Government continue to be a major supporter of the work of international refugee organisations such as the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, the International Committee of the Red Cross, and the United Nations Relief and Works Agency. We also provide funding for a large number of British non-governmental organisations working in this field as well as other United Nations bodies such as the United Nations Border Relief Organisation on the Thai/Cambodia border.

  In 1990 our refugee assistance overall amounted to some £36·7 million. We expect at least to maintain this level of support in 1991.

  Sub-Saharan Africa
  Mr. Robert G. Hughes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what plans Her Majesty's Government have to give further support to structural adjustment in Africa under the second phase of the special programme of assistance for sub-Saharan Africa co-ordinated by the World bank.

  Mrs. Chalker
  Our support for economic reform programmes has been a central aspect of our aid policy in sub-Saharan Africa for several years. We pledged and provided £250 million of bilateral programme aid for the first three-year phase of the special programme of assistance for sub-Saharan Africa (SPA I). We are undertaking to commit up to £300 million bilaterally over the three years 1991–92 to 1993–94 in support of phase II of the special programme (SPA II). These funds will be available to countries selected by Her Majesty's government from among those pursuing economic reform programmes endorsed by the IMF and the IBRD and covered by the SPA.

  British funds will be made available alongside funds provided by most bilateral donors and by the key multilateral aid agencies including the World bank, the IMF, the African development bank and the European development fund. Up to 75 per cent. of the United Kingdom bilateral funds will be untied for procurement from developing countries and from donors who are untying a similar or greater proportion of their bilateral contributions to the SPA.

  Commonwealth Development Corporation
  Mr. Grist
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether the Commonwealth Development Corporation has been authorised to extend its area of operations; and if he will make a statement.

  Mrs. Chalker
  I have decided to give approval to the CDC undertaking activities in Nicaragua. This is subject to consultation between the CDC and my Department on the scale and content of the CDC's intended investment programme in that country.

PRIME MINISTER

  Channel Islands
  Mr. Bowis
  To ask the Prime Minister how many allegations he has received since the answer given to the hon. Member for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley (Mr. Foulkes), 21 October 1982,Official Report, columns 174–75, about maladministration and injustice in the administration of justice in the Channel Island of Jersey.

  The Prime Minister
  The number of such allegations made to me or to other members of the United Kingdom Government cannot be determined without disproportionate cost, but the total is known to be small.

  No. 10 Downing Street
  Mr. Tony Banks
  To ask the Prime Minister what organisational changes he has made in the running of No. 10 Downing street since becoming Prime Minister.

  The Prime Minister
  I have made no such changes.

  Atomic Energy
  Mr. Strang
  To ask the Prime Minister if he will make it his policy to make a one-off top-up donation to the International Atomic Energy Agency safeguards budget.

  The Prime Minister
  The International Atomic Energy Agency's safeguards activities are financed from its regular budget to which the United Kingdom contributes annually. When the agency's board of governors discusses the budget for 1991–92, later this year, the United Kingdom will continue to argue that safeguards activities deserve the highest priority. The Government continue to believe that the regular budget is the best way of financing the agency's safeguards activities, rather than by making extra-budgetary payments.

  Export Promotion
  Ms. Quin
  To ask the Prime Minister whether the proposed integration of the export support resources of the Department of Trade and Industry and of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office will entail an overall increase in Government expenditure on export promotion; and if he will make a statement.

  The Prime Minister
  The formation of the joint directorate, which was recently announced by Ministers, will not have any direct effect on the overall level of Government expenditure on export promotion. It will, however, help to ensure that the considerable volume of
  499
  resources available to the Department of Trade and Industry and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office for this work is used as efficiently and effectively as possible in support of United Kingdom businesses.

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS

  Fiji
  Mr. Vaz
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement of the Government's relations with the Fijian Government.

  Mr. Lennox-Boyd
  We have good relations with the Government of Fiji.

  Mr. Vaz
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many representations he has made to the Government of Fiji regarding the treatment of trade unionists and other opposition groups in that country.

  Mr. Lennox-Boyd
  Foreign Office Ministers have, on several occasions, made the Fiji Government aware of our concern about human rights issues and raised specific cases with Fiji Ministers.

  Mr. Vaz
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what diplomatic steps have been taken to ask the interim Government of Fiji to withdraw the constitution promulgated on 25 July 1990.

  Mr. Lennox-Boyd
  None.

  Turkey
  Mr. Cox
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what is the position of the British Government as to the entry of Turkey into full membership of the European Community.

  Mr. Garel-Jones
  We share the Community consensus that there should be no decisions on EC enlargement until 1993 at least. In the meantime, we are working to strengthen relations between the Community and Turkey within the framework of the existing association agreement.

  Cyprus
  Mr. Cox
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will list the support given by the Cyprus Government, including their approval for the use of facilities on the island of Cyprus during the Gulf war.

  Mr. Garel-Jones
  The Cyprus Government offered to make hospital beds available for Gulf war casualties though in the event they were not needed. The Cyprus Government also gave their firm support to the United Nations Security Council resolutons.

  As sovereign British territory, the use of the sovereign base areas (SBA) within the terms of the treaty of establishment is a matter for Her Majesty's Government.

  The Gulf
  Mr. Cox
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will list the help given by the Greek Government during the Gulf war.
  500
  Mr. Garel-Jones
  From the early stages of the crisis, the Greek Government supported the United Nations Security Council resolutions. A frigate, the Limnos, was sent to the Red sea to help with the naval blockade of Iraq. In addition, Greece contributed United States $10 million to EC economic and humanitarian assistance for Egypt, Jordan and Turkey.

  Baltic States
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what new initiatives he has to increase Britain's aid to the Baltic states.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  We are keen to assist economic reform in the Baltic states. The British Council is increasing its activities in the three Republics, and has recently established new scholarships for Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia. The Baltic states will also become eligible for know-how fund assistance when the fund begins disbursing in April. We are willing to consider new ideas for aid as they arise.

  Sri Lanka
  Mrs. Clwyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether Her Majesty's Government supports Australian proposals for peace negotiations in Sri Lanka.

  Mr. Lennox-Boyd
  I refer the hon. Member to my reply to the right hon. Member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale (Sir D. Steel) of 4 March.

  Foreign Affairs Council
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the outcome of the European Foreign Affairs Council held on 26 March in Luxembourg.

  Mr. Garel-Jones
  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs attended an informal meeting of EC Foreign Ministers in Luxembourg on 26 March. In a useful discussion of European security and defence my right hon. Friend set out our view that we need to develop the European defence identity by strengthening the WEU with links to both the alliance and the Twelve. They also discussed the situation in Yugoslavia, and issued a statement calling for a peaceful and democratic resolution to that country's constitutional crisis.

  Nuclear Facilities
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will set out the reasons why the United Kingdom abstained in the vote at the 45th General Assembly of the United Nations concerning the call for the prohibition of military attacks on civil-safeguarded nuclear facilities.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  In its explanation of vote on the resolution the United Kingdom stated:"The United Kingdom's policy is to maintain negotiations on this subject in the Conference on Disarmament. In our view operative paragraphs 1 and 4 of L38 are inconsistent with that approach".
  (Resolution L38 was entitled "Prohibition of Attacks on Nuclear Facilities".)

  Nuclear Weapons China
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what response was made by the United Kingdom to the criticisms made by the Nigerian delegation to the partial test ban treaty amendment conference in New York in January, about the failure of the United Kingdom and its two depositary power partners to meet its obligations under the 1963 partial test ban treaty to achieve a comprehensive nuclear test ban treaty.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  The head of the UK delegation addressed issues raised by other delegations in his speech to the conference on 11 January which concluded the general debate. He made clear that we continue to observe our obligations under the 1963 treaty through our participation in the conference on disarmament, and that we have a requirement to test for the foreseeable future because of the contribution to deterrence made by nuclear weapons.

  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what policy position was expressed by the United Kingdom delegation to the amendment conference of the partial nuclear test ban treaty held in New York in January in response to proposals put forward for a moratorium on nuclear testing worldwide.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  The head of the United Kingdom delegation to the conference made clear our position: because our security will depend for the foreseeable future on deterrence based in part on the possession of nuclear weapons, we have a continuing need to test our nuclear weapons to ensure that they remain effective and up to date.

  Israel
  Mr. Bernie Grant
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, pursuant to his answer of 15 March,Official Report, column 715, if he will specify the individual actions he has taken in the last 24 months, in pursuance of his continued active support for resolution 242.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  We have had innumerable contacts with the parties concerned, whether nationally or through the European Community, to discuss measures to further the peace process on the basis of Security Council resolution 242. The United Kingdom has also voted in favour of Security Council resolutions 672, 673 and 681 which reaffirm resolution 242.

  "World in Action" Programme
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will obtain for his departmental library(a) the transcript and (b) the video cassette of the "World in Action" programme broadcast on 25 March.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  We have already obtained a video cassette of this programme, but see no need to purchase a transcript.

  China
  Dr. Goodson-Wickes
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what progress is being made in implementing the Foreign Compensation (People's Republic of China) (Distribution) Order 1987.

  Mr. Lennox-Boyd
  The Foreign Compensation Commission, which has been assisted in the performance of administrative tasks by the accountants, Ernst and Young, will on 2 April 1991 begin making payments from the China fund amounting to approximately £25 million, representing 62·25 per cent. of the value assigned to claims, to successful claimants against the fund. These disbursements will exhaust the balance in the fund.

  Maritime Military Doctrine
  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what is his policy regarding participation in seminars on maritime military doctrine with non-NATO nations.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  In accordance with the commitment in the 1990 Vienna document on confidence and security-building measures we shall he participating in the second military doctrine seminar between all CSCE participating states which will be held in Vienna later this year. The agenda for the seminar has yet to be decided, but is likely to allow coverage of a range of conventional arms control issues.

  Naval Confidence-building Measures
  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what is his policy towards British participation in naval confidence-building measures; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Douglas Hogg
  There are a number of global and bilateral measures dealing with naval forces in which Britain participates, including incidents at sea agreements, which contribute to "confidence-building". We continue to keep under review the need for further arrangements in the maritime sphere.

  Capital Punishment
  Mr. Batiste
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps Her Majesty's Government are taking to abolish capital punishment in the Caribbean dependent territories and Bermuda.

  Mr. Hurd
  In order to be consistent with the position in the United Kingdom where Parliament has expressed a clear view, the British Government consider that the death penalty for murder should be abolished in those dependent territories which elect to remain under the Crown. Following consultations conducted by our Governors with their dependent territory Governments, we shall submit for the approval of Her Majesty the Queen at a forthcoming meeting of the Privy Council an order under which the death penalty for murder in the Caribbean dependent territories will be abolished and a sentence for life imprisonment substituted. The British Government hope that the Government of Bermuda will decide to follow this example as soon as possible.

  Immigration
  Mrs. Wise
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs for how long a person who applies for a visa for a three-month visit but is granted one for six months may remain in the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  I have been asked to reply.

  Visit visas do not specify the length of stay permitted. This is decided by the immigration officer in granting leave at the port of entry. A person granted leave to enter may remain for the period endorsed in the passport.

  Mrs. Wise
  To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many husbands have applied from India for settlement visas to join their wives in Britain in each of the last three years; how many have been granted; and how many have been refused.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  I have been asked to reply.

  The information requested is given in the table.

  Husbands applying in India for an entry clearance for settlement in the United Kingdom

  Number of persons

  Applications

  Newly received

  Granted

  Of which, granted on appeal

  Refused initially

  1988

  470

  360

  50

  260

  1989

  540

  400

  90

  250

  1990

  560

  390

  70

  330

TRANSPORT

  Cyclists
  Mr. David Nicholson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what measures he is taking to promote the use of reflective clothing, effective lights and other precautions by cyclists using the public highway.

  Mr. Chope
  Our spring child cyclist campaign will include advice on the need for cyclists to take steps to ensure they can be seen by other road users. Advice is also included in the highway code and other road safety material distributed by the Department.

  Number of flask movements (tonnage)

  Dover 1988

  22·79 tonnes)

  1989

  1,624·41 tonnes)

  Goole 1988

  Nil

  1989

  10·56 tonnes)

  Immingham 1988

  Nil

  1989

  10·56 tonnes)

  Barrow 1988

  82 (218·4 tonnes)

  1989

  89238·1 tonnes)

  Mr Malcolm Bruce
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will list the ports through which irradiated nuclear fuel from foreign research reactors was imported over the last 10 years and the number of flasks and tonnage of irradiated nuclear fuel imported through each port.

  Association of British Travel Agents
  Mr. Snape
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what discussions he has held with representatives of the Association of British Travel Agents about the extension of the air travel reserve fund to cover passengers travelling on scheduled flights and services.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  My right hon. and learned Friend has not held any recent discussions with representatives of the Association of British Travel Agents. However, the president of the association has written to my right hon. and learned Friend confirming the association's support for extending consumer financial protection to scheduled airline passengers. This followed my right hon. and learned Friend's recent request to the Civil Aviation Authority for advice on this issue.

  Radioactive Material
  Mr. Malcolm Bruce
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will list by year how many nuclear flasks from(a) research reactors and (b) nuclear power stations were imported on non-purpose built ships over the last 10 years.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  The details of imported shipments of irradiated nuclear fuel using non-purpose built vessels during the last 10 years are as follows:

  (a) Research reactors: One flask in 1990; and

  (b) Nuclear power stations: 148 flasks over the 10-year period broken down as follows:

  Shipment per year

  Year

  Total

  1980

  29

  1981

  45

  1982

  18

  1983

  26

  1984

  2

  1985

  11

  1986

  8

  1987

  6

  1988

  4

  1989

  16

  1990

  24

  Mr. Malcolm Bruce
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will list the ports through which irradiated nuclear fuel from nuclear power stations was imported in 1988 and 1989 and the number of flasks and tonnage of irradiated nuclear fuel imported through each port.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  The ports through which flasks were imported and the tonnage of irradiated fuel they contained for the years 1988 and 1989 are as follows:

  Mr. McLoughlin
  In the last 10 years there has been only a single import of irradiated fuel from a foreign research reactor, in 1990 through the port of Felixstowe. The radioactive content was 0·004 tonnes.

  Mr. Malcolm Bruce
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether the ship used to import irradiated
  505
  nuclear fuel from India was purpose built; which port was its point of entry; and what was the route taken to Dounreay.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  The port of entry for the recent movement of irradiated fuel from India was Felixstowe. Movement from Felixstowe to Dounreay was by road; the route was as follows:

  A45—A604—A1(M)/A1–A66—M6—A74/M74—M73/A80—M80—M9—A9—A895/882–836.

  The ship used for this journey is classed as a general cargo ship and is registered in India.

  Carlisle Bypass
  Mr. Martlew
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when he expects the consultant's report on the options for the Carlisle bypass to be finished.

  Mr. Chope
  The consultant's report is expected to be with the Department by the summer of 1992 to allow public consultation to take place in February 1993.

  Marine Safety
  Mr. McNamara
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what was the average fine in cases where employers in marine and waterways were found guilty of breaches of health and safety legislation.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  The fines in the successful prosecutions initiated by the Department of Transport on marine occupational health and safety matters since 1980 have varied generally between £50 and £750.

  Mr. McNamara
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many prohibition notices were issued by his Department to marine and waterway employers since 1980.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  Powers to issue prohibition notices were given to the Department under the Merchant Shipping Act 1984. The total number of prohibition notices issued from that date to the end of 1990 is 78.

  Mr. McNamara
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many improvement notices were issued by his Department to marine and waterway employers since 1980.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  Powers to issue improvement notices were given to the Department under the Merchant Shipping Act 1984. The total number of improvement notices issued from that date to the end of 1990 is 210.

  Mr. McNamara
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many prosecutions of employers in the marine and waterways sectors for failing to produce safety policies have been undertaken by his Department in the last 10 years.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  Employers are required to produce a safety policy under the Merchant Shipping (Health and Safety: General Duties) Regulations 1984. To date there have been no prosecutions for failure to comply with that provision.

  Mr. McNamara
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what proposals he has for statutory regulation of working time for marine workers; and what steps he is 506
  taking to implement International Labour Organisation convention 147 in respect of the regulation of working time for marine workers.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  Draft regulations together with a draft code of practice on seafarers' hours of work were recently circulated to representative organisations for comment.

  Mr. McNamara
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what changes are planned in the way in which statistics on health and safety of marine workers arc collected.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  The marine accident investigation branch is responsible for the collection and recording of accidents to seamen and is in the process of reviewing the system. It is too early to say what changes will be made but the object is to identify the essential factors in an incident and record them in a readily retrievable form.

  Mr. McNamara
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what proposals he has to change the list of possible causes of marine accidents to exclude placing responsibility on victims.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  No changes are proposed in the existing policy, which is that the apportionment of liability is not the purpose of marine accident investigation. However, to exclude personal fault or error from the possible causative factors would be unrealistic.

  Mr. McNamara
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether he will make it his policy in all accident recording for marine workers for the length of the continuous duty period preceding the accident, the lengths of time away from work available for rest and for continuous sleep, and the arrangements for rest and sleep within the 24-hour cycle for all persons involved to be recorded.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  Certain information concerning hours worked prior to an accident is already collected. Consideration is being given to whether this aspect needs to be widened to collect more detailed information.

  Mr. McNamara
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many marine surveyors are in post; and what is their establishment.

  Mr. McLouglin
  A total of 192 marine surveyors are currently in post in the Department against a complement of 204.

  Mr. McNamara
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many inspections of British and non-British registered ships took place during the last 10 years for which figures are available.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  The number of general inspections of United Kingdom ships and port state control inspections of foreign-registered ships for the years 1983–90 are as follows; equivalent data for earlier years are not available.

  Year

  United Kingdom ships

  Non United Kingdom ships

  1983

  581

  2,557

  1984

  587

  2,529

  1985

  731

  2,532

  507

  Year

  United Kingdom ships

  Non United Kingdom ships

  1986

  629

  2,788

  1987

  716

  2,122

  1988

  1810

  1,831

  1989

  1 23,342

  1,697

  1990

  3n/a

  2,087

  1 Financial year figures 1988–89 onwards.

  2 Following the Marchioness disaster it was decided to both increase numbers of inspections of United Kingdom ships and revise the statistical basis of their calculation. The figures for 1989–90 reflect this change of policy.

  3 Not available.

  Mr. McNamara
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many prosecutions of employers in the waterways and marine sectors have been initiated by his Department for health and safety breaches in the last 10 years.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  The Department of Transport has initiated 13 successful prosecutions on marine occupational health and safety matters since 1980.

  Mr. McNamara
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether he will introduce statutory regulations for working time to all crewed ships regardless of size.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  The industry is being consulted on the possible introduction of statutory regulations for seafarers' hours of work. The draft regulations circulated recently for comment apply to seagoing United Kingdom ships—other than fishing vessels and pleasure craft, neither of which are included in the International Labour Organisation convention No. 147—and to foreign ships in United Kingdom ports.

  Mr. McNamara
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when the Department last made a systematic assessment of the health and safety record of the waterways sector; and where the results of such an assessment were published.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  The general occupational health and safety of merchant seamen is under continuous assessment but the Department of Transport has made no specific study of the waterways sector. Responsibility for the health and safety of many land-based workers on waterways falls to my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Employment.

  Mr. McNamara
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will establish a port safety forum of employers, unions, safety inspectorates, harbourmasters and port authorities to assist in the avoidance of accidents.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  The National Accident Prevention Committee, run by the British Ports Federation, has provided such a forum for over 25 years.

  Mr. McNamara
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what consideration he has given to transferring the marine inspectorate to the Health and Safety Executive.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  Lord Cullen did not recommend any changes in Department of Transport responsibilities under the Merchant Shipping Acts and I am not considering any.
  508
  Mr. McNamara
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make it his policy to extend regulations and other legislation, pursuant to the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act to cover workers on British-registered ships.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  It would not be practicable to extend precisely the same health and safety legislation to workers on ships and on land, but it is the Department's policy to provide a level of protection for workers on United Kingdom-registered ships corresponding to that provided for land-based workers.

  Official Cars
  Mr. Tony Banks
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many parking tickets were received and paid by his Department in each year since 1988 in respect of official cars.

  Mr. Chope
  The information readily available records one parking ticket received and paid in 1989 and one in 1990 in respect of official cars operated directly by the Department of Transport.

  Motorways
  Mr. Day
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what is the current average speed of cars on motorways in Great Britain.

  Mr. Chope
  Data on vehicle speeds are collected by automatic counters as a by-product of the national traffic census. The counters are not placed near bends, hills or junctions and so can measure vehicle speeds only in uncongested conditions. The results do not, therefore, give any indication of overall average journey speeds.

  At present, only a limited number of counters are in operation on motorways, but the data so far available suggest that the average speed of cars in 1990 was 73 mph.

  Mr. Day
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what assessment he has made of the effect on(a) the fatality rate, in terms of distance travelled, and (b) the average speed of cars on motorways in Great Britain if the motorway speed limit were to be raised to 80 mph.

  Mr. Chope
  The relationship between speed, speed limits, accident risk and accident severity are complex and, in the absence of recent experience in the United Kingdom of changing speed limits, difficult to predict. On the basis of overseas experience and, in particular recent changes in speed limits in the United States and Switzerland, an increase in the motorway speed limit to 80 mph might result in an increase in the average free-flow speed of cars and a consequent increase in motorway fatalities.

  Mr. Day
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what was the fatality rate, in terms of distance travelled, on motorways in Great Britain for the latest 12-month period available.

  Mr. Chope
  The most recent data available are for 1989, when there were 228 fatalities on motorways and A(M) roads at an estimated rate of 3·8 fatalities per billion vehicle kilometres.

  Stansted Airport Rail Link
  Mr. Haselhurst
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what forecast of usage was used by British Rail when seeking approval of investment in the Stansted airport rail link; and what was the actual usage during the first week of operation.

  Mr. Freeman
  My right hon. and learned Friend has no information on the use of the Stansted express rail link in its first week of operation. My hon. Friend may wish to obtain this from British Rail. The rail service has been planned to accommodate the demand for rail travel associated with the capacity of the first phase of Stansted development, that is, about 2,500 rail passengers each way per day.

  Traffic Measures
  Mr. Tony Lloyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what representations he has received concerning the extension of proposed London traffic measures to all metropolitan districts; arid if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Chope
  The Department has received representations by and on behalf of a number of local authorities outside London for changes to be made to the Road Traffic Bill so that the new, decriminalised parking regime for London can be available elsewhere.

  We are considering these representations.

  Oil Spillages
  Mr. Tony Banks
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make a statement about the contingency plans which exist to deal with a major oil spillage in(a) the English channel and (b) the North sea.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  Because it is impossible to predict where or when a tanker accident may occur, the Department of Transport's marine pollution control unit's (MPCU) contingency plan for at-sea clean-up consists of highly mobile resources on short-notice standby. These are positioned at various locations around the United Kingdom, from where they can be deployed quickly to the English channel, the North sea or any other part of the UK that might be threatened by a major oil spillage.

  The responsibilty for onshore clean-up rests primarily with coastal local authorities. Those bordering the English channel and the North sea all have their own contingency plans for dealing with coastal pollution and can call on advice and specialist resources from the MPCU, which in a major spillage would co-ordinate the onshore response as well as directing offshore operations. This is to ensure that the at-sea and onshore clean-up response is fully integrated.

  A list of all directly owned or contracted counter-pollution resources available to the MPCU is held in the Library.

  Because of his overall responsibility for co-ordinating Government policy on environmental pollution, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment would be kept closely informed along with other
  510
  Departments and agencies such as the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the Nature Conservancy Council.

  The UK is a contracting party to the multilateral (Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, UK and EC) Bonn agreement for co-operation in dealing with pollution of the North sea by oil or other harmful substances and is a signatory to an Anglo-French joint maritime contingency plan (Mancheplan) for dealing with pollution in the English channel. Both of these international arrangements provide for the provision of assistance, if requested, to help combat major oil spillages.

  Resources would also be contracted in from the private sector as needed.

  North Tyneside Steam Railway
  Mr. Trotter
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when he expects to be able to approve the North Tyneside Steam Railway Light Railway Order.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  The order was approved Wednesday 27 March 1991.

  Poynton Bypass
  Sir Thomas Arnold
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what representations he has received from British Aerospace plc about the line of route of the proposed A523 Poynton bypass.

  Mr. Chope
  British Aerospace responded to the public consultation held at the end of 1989. The company supported the principle of a bypass but was concerned about the proximity of the consultation routes to its runway. Discussions with the company are continuing.

  M62
  Mr. Lewis
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what has been the cause of delays in the completion of the work between junctions 12 and 13 of the M62 motorway at Eccles/Worsley.

  Mr. Chope
  The works have been more extensive than initally thought necessary and in order to keep delays to a minimum in the long term, we are completing all the works required during the present closures.

  A45
  Sir Eldon Griffiths
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport on how many occasions the A45 east and west of Bury St. Edmunds has been the subject of repairs over the past 10 years; what was the reason in the case of each closure between the Westley-Fornham junction and Rookery crossroads; what was the approximate duration and cost of repairs relating to each closure; and when he expects the road to be fully up to standard.

  Mr. Chope
  From the information available, apart from routine maintenance, there have been eight occasions These are in the table.
  511

  Year

  Location

  Works

  Duration

  Cost £

  1984–85

  Bury bypass bridges

  Plane and resurface

  Not known

  120,580

  1986

  Rougham to Bury

  Reconstruction and resurface

  February-June

  1·25 million

  1986

  St. Saviours interchange

  Concrete repairs

  May-August

  140,000

  1986–87

  Bury to Rougham

  Concrete repairs

  Not known

  500,000

  1988

  Rougham westwards

  Major maintenance

  January-June

  1·08 million

  1988–89

  Bury bypass

  Concrete repairs

  Not known

  225,000

  1989

  Bury bypass bridges

  Bridge joints and resurface—lane closures

  October-December

  42,000

  1990–91

  Bury bypass

  Reconstruction, joint repairs and overlay

  October-April

  5 million

  Once the major maintenance has finished this week the road will be up to current standards.

  Child Safety Restraints
  Miss Lestor
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what plans he has for a new campaign educating drivers about the need for children to wear safety restraints.

  Mr. Chope
  We shall shortly be launching a campaign to encourage the wearing of seat restraints by both adults and children travelling in the rear seats of cars.

  Immingham
  Mr. Brandon-Bravo
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what steps his Department is taking to monitor the development of the port of Immingham to ensure its compliance with undertakings given by the developers to Parliament and to the Government.

  Mr. McLoughlin
  None. It is not for my Department to monitor developments authorised by private Acts. But I am assured by Associated British Ports that it will provide quarterly information about steam coal imports at Immingham from the arrival of the first ship at the new facilities to 31 December 1985 to the Department of Energy and the House of Commons Library, in accordance with the undertaking given to the Select Committee of the House of Commons during the passage of the Associated British Ports Act 1990.

  M62
  Mr. Lewis
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when junction 13 of the M62 motorway at Worsley will be reopened.

  Mr. Chope
  As soon as possible. We shall need to keep the northbound off-slip road closed for some time after the rest of the junction is reopened, while we carry out works on Worsley canal west bridge.

  Elderly Drivers
  Mr. Thurnham
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what is his estimate of the number of elderly people who have given up driving as a result of his Department's campaign; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Chope
  The Government recognise the value to older people of maintaining their independence and mobility and have not been running a campaign to encourage them to give up driving. It is, however, important that any driver should notify DVLA if he 512
  develops a medical condition which might affect his ability to drive safely. In the year to April 1990 some 32,000 people over the age of 70 gave up driving on medical grounds out of a total of 1·7 million licence holders in this age group.

  British Rail (Paddington)
  Mr. Gale
  To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make a statement on investment in British Rail services operating out of Paddington.

  Mr. Rifkind
  I am pleased to inform my hon. Friend that I have today approved investment of nearly £50 million in 65 class 165 Networker turbo vehicles. These new diesel multiple units will run on Thames line express services between Paddington and Oxford/Newbury. They will replace the existing loco-hauled trains which are becoming increasingly unreliable and costly to maintain, and bring about considerable improvements in quality of service.

THE ARTS

  Richmond Adult College (Exhibition)
  Mr. Jessel
  To ask the Minister for the Arts if he has considered an application for an exhibition of paintings from the Richmond upon Thames adult college to be held in the Upper Waiting Hall.

  Mr. Renton
  Yes. I am glad to sponsor "Richmond: The Place—the People" exhibition in the Upper Waiting Hall.

  Bradford Playhouse
  Mr. Madden
  To ask the Minister for the Arts what representations he has received about the proposal by the British Film Institute to transfer funding from the Bradford Playhouse and film theatre to the former Library theatre now owned by the national museum of photography; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Renton
  I have received no representations about this proposal, other than a letter from the hon. Member himself.

  Funding
  Mr. Madden
  To ask the Minister for the Arts how much funding his Department has provided directly or indirectly to the national museum of photography and the British Film Institute over each of the past three years, to date; what is his policy on cross-funding by bodies funded by his Department; and if he will make a statement.
  513
  Mr. Renton
  Since 1988 my Department has provided the following funding to the British Film Institute:

  £ million

  1988–89

  11·30

  1989–90

  11·90

  1990–91

  12·75

  In each of those years the national museum of science and industry has allocated some 10 per cent. of its grant in aid to the national museum of photography, film and television. The allocation for 1991–92 will amount to some £2 million. Cross-funding by Office of Arts and Libraries-funded bodies may occur, provided they are acting within their respective functions, however defined.

  British Film Institute
  Mr. Madden
  To ask the Minister for the Arts what control he exercises over the decisions by the British Film Institute on the allocation of its budgets; whether he monitors the implications of such decisions; and what reserve powers he has to overturn such decisions.

  Mr. Renton
  The OAL's relations with its grant-in-aid-funded bodies is on an arm's-length basis. The BFI's proposals for the allocation of its budget are monitored through the annual submissions of its corporate plan.

  Mr. Madden
  To ask the Minister for the Arts if he will call for a report from the board of the British Film Institute on the reasons for the transfer of old funds from

  £ million

  1985–86

  1986–87

  1987–88

  1988–89

  1989–90

  1990–91

  outturn

  outturn

  outturn

  outturn

  outturn

  estimated outturn

  Housing benefit

  England

  2,645

  2,814

  2,873

  3,048

  3,354

  3,950

  Scotland

  280

  330

  380

  398

  454

  526

  Wales

  167

  182

  183

  201

  214

  225

  Total

  3,092

  3,326

  3,435

  3,647

  4,021

  4,701

  Mandatory students awards

  England

  659

  675

  703

  765

  838

  1,127

  Wales

  45

  46

  49

  53

  60

  75

  Total

  704

  722

  752

  818

  898

  1,202

  Chancery plc
  Ms. Mowlam
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what consideration the Bank of England banking supervision department has given to Chancery plc's last submissions on capital adequacy; and what decisions it has reached.

  Mr. Maples
  That is a matter for the Bank of England, but the confidentiality restrictions of part V of the Banking Act 1987 would prohibit the bank from disclosing any such information about an individual institution.

  Knitting Patterns
  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) what reasons underlay his decision to change the VAT status of knitting patterns;

  (2) if he will zero-rate for VAT purposes knitting patterns for babywear and children's garments;
  514
  the Bradford Playhouse and Film Theatre to the Old Library Theatre Museum of Photography; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Renton
  I have no plans to do so.

NATIONAL FINANCE

  Customs and Excise
  Mr. Watts
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make it his policy to publish the total amount of revenue collected by Her Majesty's Customs and Excise in serious misdeclaration penalties since April 1990 to the most recent date for which figures are available.

  Mrs. Gillian Shephard
  Serious misdeclaration penalty has only been in force since 1 April 1990 and information on penalties imposed will be published in due course in the annual Customs and Excise Board's report.

  Local Authority Expenditure
  Mr. Dewar
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will publish a table, in the format of table 21.2.3 of Cm 621, analysing other current local authority expenditure consistent with table 5.8 of Cm 1520.

  Mr. Mellor
  Data are no longer held in a form which allows separate identification of all the items set out in table 21.2.3 of the 1989 public expenditure White Paper—Cm 621. The available information is shown in the table.

  (3) what are the reasons for the differing treatment for VAT purposes of individual knitting patterns and knitting patterns presented in a collection.

  Mrs. Gillian Shephard
  The law zero-rates books, booklets, brochures, pamphlets and leaflets. Knitting, patterns, including those for babywear and children's. garments, can therefore be zero-rated only if they fall to be classified under one of these headings. In the past, single or double sheet knitting patterns were accepted as qualifying for zero-rating. However, Customs and Excise have had to review this position in the light of recent decisions by the independent VAT tribunal, that"A leaflet must be limp, and generally, if not inevitably, on unlaminated paper".
  Having obtained legal opinion that these patterns do not in fact qualify for zero-rating, Customs have notified that they should be standard-rated with effect from 1 May 1991.

  Sports and Arts Foundation
  Mr. Pendry
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what proposals he has for monitoring and accountability of decision making by the proposed new foundation for sport and the arts.

  Mr. Mellor
  Suitable arrangements for monitoring and audit are among the conditions that will need to be satisfied before I could agree to a cut in pool betting duty. The most appropriate form for these arrangements will be determined in future discussions with the proposers of the new foundation.

  Mr. Pendry
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he plans to meet the pools companies to discuss the proposed foundation for sport and the arts.

  Mr. Mellor
  I have no immediate plans to meet the pools companies to discuss a proposed foundation for sport and the arts, but officials in the Treasury plan shortly to meet representatives of the companies.

  Mr. Pendry
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many meetings, and over what time scale, Ministers and officials from his Department held with representatives of the pools companies to discuss the establishing of a new foundation for sport and the arts.

  Mr. Mellor
  Before the Budget my right hon. Friend the Chancellor and I met representatives of one of the pools companies on 8 March to discuss their proposals to establish a new foundation for sport and the arts. My officials have also held meetings with representatives of the same company.

  Mr. Pendry
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the time scale involved in establishing the foundation for sport and the arts.

  Mr. Mellor
  Providing that a foundation can be established with satisfactory terms and conditions, I would expect it to start operating from the beginning of the 1991–92 football season in August.
  516
  Mr. Pendry
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) what method and criteria will be adopted in deciding the membership of the proposed foundation for sport and the arts;

  (2) how many individuals from each of (a) the Sports Council, (b) the Scottish Sports Council, (c) the Sports Council for Wales, (d) the Sports Council for Northern Ireland, (e) the British Olympic Association, (f) the Central Council for Physical Recreation, (g) the Department of Education and Science, (h) the Arts Council, (i) the Pools Promoters Association, (j) the Association of Metropolitan Authorities, (k) the Association of District Councils, (l) the Association of County Councils, (m) the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and (n) the Association of Local Authorities in Northern Ireland will be included in the membership of the proposed foundation for sport and the arts; and what other organisations will be represented;

  (3) what is his estimate of the ratio of funding between sport and the arts by the new foundation for sport and the arts;

  (4) how many staff will be employed by the proposed foundation for sport and the arts.

  Mr. Mellor
  In his Budget statement on 19 March my right hon. Friend announced that he had received a proposal from one of the pools promoters for a new foundation for sport and the arts. The matters raised in the hon. Member's questions, together with a number of others, will need to be determined in future discussions with the proposers of the new foundation.

  Mr. Fisher
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the pools scheme to benefit the arts and sports will also contribute to museums.

  Mr. Mellor
  [holding answer 26 March 1991]: It will be for the trustees to determine, once the foundation for sport and the arts is established, whether museums will benefit from the funds to be allocated.

  Value Added Tax
  Mr. Alex Carlile
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make it his policy to remove VAT from sanitary towels and tampons; and if he will make a statement.

  Mrs. Gillian Shephard
  The Government have no plans to remove VAT from sanitary products or other essential items of personal hygiene. In any case, this would be contrary to EC law.

  Mr. Waller
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he intends to compensate health authorities for the Budget increase in the standard rate of value added tax.

  Mrs. Gillian Shephard
  I have agreed that in the special case of the health programmes, the additional costs to health authorities should be added to existing provision as a claim against the reserve. This will also apply to comparable expenditure in Scotland and Wales. The increased provision will be granted to the national health service in supplementary estimates for 1991–92 to be presented in due course later in the year.

  Mr. Bernie Grant
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many firms were registered for value added tax, were new registrations for value added tax, and ceased to be registered for value added tax, in each year from 1987 to date, in the parliamentary constituencies of(a) Tottenham and (b) Hornsey and Wood Green.

  Mrs. Gillian Shephard
  [ holding answer 25 March 1991]: The local VAT Office at Enfield covers areas in addition to the constituencies of Tottenham and Hornsey and Wood Green. No distinction is made between businesses registering for the first time and other registrations, for example, a sole proprietor taking on a partner or forming a limited company.

  Years End December

  New Registrations

  Deregistrations

  1987

  2,740

  2,297

  1988

  2,816

  2,229

  1989

  3,583

  2,367

  1990

  3,087

  2,575

  Mr. Fisher
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what resources and how many civil servants for how many days were devoted to Her Majesty's Government's plans to raise value added tax to 17·5 per cent.

  Mrs. Gillian Shephard
  [holding answer 26 March 1991]: Civil servants provided advice to Ministers on a wide range of subjects during the Budget period. It is not possible to provide a reliable estimate of the time spent advising on any one particular issue.

  Mr. Fisher
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what he estimates will be the effect on the headline and core rates of inflation on value added tax at 17½ per cent.

  Mr. Maples
  [holding answer 26 March 1991]: The increase in the standard rate of value added tax from 15 to 17½ per cent. will add 1·1 percentage points to RPI inflation in 1991–92, on the assumption that it is fully passed on to the consumer. But this effect will be more than offset by the Budget measures on the community charge, which will reduce RPI inflation by 1·9 percentage points.
  518
  There is no unique measure of underlying inflation. Moreover, as explained in the Government's observations on the Treasury and Civil Service Committee's report on the 1990 Budget, it is helpful when analysing underlying inflation to abstract from once-off changes, such as changes to indirect taxes.

  The increase in VAT will have no effect on producer output price inflation. It will have the following effects on measured inflation between April 1991 and March 1992:
  add 1·2 percentage points to RPI inflation excluding mortgage interest payments, offset by the Budget reduction in the community charge;
  add 1·3 percentage points to RPI inflation excluding mortgage interest payments and community charge;
  add 1 percentage point to the increase in the market price GDP deflator.

  But these effects are best seen as once-off changes to the price level, associated with switching from community charge to indirect taxes, rather than increases in underlying inflation.

  Mr. Barry Field
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what arrangements he is making to allow guest house and hotel proprietors to recoup the increases in value added tax on holidays prebooked and prepaid before the rise from tour operators and by tour operators from their customers.

  Mrs. Gillian Shephard
  [ holding answer 26 March 1991]: No special arrangements are necessary. Guest houses and hotel proprietors and tour operators will either be able to use the normal arrangements governing a change of VAT rate or, where appropriate, arrangements under the tour operators' margin scheme. Details are explained in the relevant Customs and Excise public notice and leaflet. To the extent that guest house and hotel proprietors have received payment before 1 April 1991, they will have no additional VAT liability in respect of that payment.

  Trade Unions
  Dr. Marek
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if the Government policy on recognition of relevant trade unions for the purposes of representation and collective bargaining extends to all Government Departments and, with the exception of GCHQ, to agencies and non-departmental public bodies.

  Mrs. Gillian Shephard
  [holding answer 26 March 1991]: The Government as employer recognises relevant trade unions where they are representative. The level and extent of recognition is a matter for management discretion. Petrol Tax

  Petrol Tax
  Mr. Peter Bottomley
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much the tax on petrol would have to be increased to raise the amount equivalent to the community charge necessary to fund local authority spending up to standard assessment.

  Mrs. Gillian Shephard
  [holding answer 27 March 1991]: As set out in table 6.9 of the "Financial Statement and Budget Report", the net yield of the community charge in 1991–92 is now forecast to be £7·2 billion. Calculated on a basis consistent with the ready reckoner published in the 1990 autumn statement—table 4·7—an additional yield of £7·2 billion in 1991–92 would require an increase in petrol duties of around 92 per cent. However, this estimate is

  519
  subject to considerable uncertainty about the extent to which such a large increase in duties would induce consumers to switch between different categories of expenditure.

  Woolwich Building Society
  Mr. Tim Smith
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what has been the cost to public funds of defending the case brought by the Woolwich Equitable Building Society against the Commissioners of Inland Revenue arising from section 40 of the Finance Act 1985.

  Mr. Maude
  This information is not available. Confidential discussions are taking place between the parties to the action on the subject of costs.

  Mortgages
  Mr. Shore
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the estimated effect on the retail prices index of every 1 per cent. decrease in mortgage rates.

  Mr. Norman Lamont
  A fall of one percentage point in mortgage interest rates would currently reduce the all items retail prices index by approximately 0·5 percentage points.

  Banking Regulations
  Ms. Mowlam
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, following the collapse of Chancery plc, he has any plans to conduct a further review of the United Kingdom banking regulations.

  Mr. Maples
  No.

  Ms. Mowlam
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what criteria are followed in determining whether persons are fit and proper for the purposes of controlling banking operations.

  Mr. Maples
  The criteria for determining whether persons are fit and proper for the purposes of controlling banking operations are set out in schedule 3 of the Banking Act 1987 and are explained further in the statement of principles on section 16 of the Act.

  Share Shops
  Mr. Simon Coombs
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what are the criteria by which the Treasury will assess proposals for high street share shops; and how these will be integrated into the privatisation programme.

  Mr. Maude
  We will be looking for share-dealing mechanisms which provide easy access by the small-scale shareholder for buying and selling shares, either on an execution-only basis or with support and advice where customers seek it. The outlets could be shops, counters or other means of local delivery. Applicants could be individual organisations or joint ventures. The operator of the service will need to be able to comply with the regulatory requirements of the Financial Services and other relevant Acts.

  If suitable proposals come forward quickly enough, the Government would consider appointing a retail sales manager for the BT share sale to distribute shares through high street outlets.
  520
  I am delighted that a good deal of interest has already been expressed in this proposition.

  EC Budget
  Mr. Leighton
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what were the net contributions by the United Kingdom to the EC budget for each of the last four quarters.

  Mr. Norman Lamont
  The latest estimates for net contributions to the EC budget on a balance of payments basis are:

  £ million

  1990

  Q1

  353

  Q2

  694

  Q3

  542

  Q4

  887

  The figure for the fourth quarter has been revised upwards by £516 million in the light of corrected information which has become available since the press notice on the balance of payments was published by the CSO on 13 March.

  This and other revisions will be incorporated in the CSO press notice on the quarterly balance of payments accounts to be published in June.

  This revision to the fourth quarter of 1990 does not affect the projection of the invisible balance for January and February 1991 published in the CSO press notice of 25 March, nor does it affect the forecasts of the balance of payments for 1991 published in the FSBR tables 3.1 and 3.5.

  Secondary Banks' Collapses
  Ms. Mowlam
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what changes there have been in policy on secondary banks' collapses since 1974.

  Mr. Maples
  Significant improvements have been made to the system of banking supervision under the provisions of the Banking Acts 1979 and 1987. So far as individual cases are concerned, the bank's reaction continues to be determined on a case-by-case basis in the light of all the prevailing circumstances.

  VAT
  Mr. Simon Coombs
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he intends to compensate health authorities for the Budget increase in the standard rate of value added tax.

  Mrs. Gillian Shephard
  I have agreed that in the special case of the health programmes, the additional costs to health authorities should be added to existing provision as a claim against the reserve. This will also apply to comparable expenditure in Scotland and Wales. The increased provision will be granted to the NHS in supplementary estimates for 1991–92 to be presented in due course later in the year.

  Public Expenditure
  Mr. Dewar
  To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will publish a table showing(a) the population figures used for England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland

  521
  for the per capita calculations in his answer to the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Summerson) on identifiable public expenditure of 13 December, Official Report, columns 457–58, citing data sources and (b) the population figures used for England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and the English regions for the per capita calculations in the Treasury's note on public expenditure by territory and region in HC 41 of 1990–91, pp. 41–46, citing data sources.

  Table 1:

  Population Data1 for 1990 Territorial Analysis

  Thousands

  England

  Scotland

  Wales

  Northern Ireland

  1985–86

  47,111·7

  5,136·5

  2,811·8

  1,557·8

  1986–87

  47,254·5

  5,121·0

  2,821·0

  21,566·8

  1987–88

  47,406·7

  5,112·1

  2,836·2

  1,575·1

  1988–89

  47,536·3

  5,094·0

  2,857·0

  1,578·1

  1989–90

  47,689·4

  5,090·7

  2,873·1

  1,583·0

  1 The data are mid-year population estimates produced by the Office of Population, Censuses and Surveys. They are consistent with the figures published in Table 2 of Population Trends 62 (Winter 1990)

  2 During the course of the preparation of this reply a minor error has come to light in the figure used (1,556·8) to produce the per capita figures for Northern Ireland for 1986–87. The effect of this is to overstate total Northern Ireland per capita expenditure in that year by £19 (0·6 per cent.)

  Table 2:

  Population Data1 for Analysis of Regional Expenditure in England

  Thousands

  1987–88

  Northern Region

  3,076·8

  Yorks and Humberside

  4,900·2

  East Midlands

  3,942·3

  East Anglia

  2,013·7

  South East

  17,317·6

  South West

  4,588·4

  West Midlands

  5,197·7

  North West

  6,370·1

  England

  47,406·7

  1 The data are mid-year population estimates produced by the Office of Population, Censuses and Surveys. They are consistent with the figures published in Table 3 of Population Trends 62 (Winter 1990)

SOCIAL SECURITY

  Income Support
  Mr Ralph Howell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what is the total weekly income support entitlement for a married man with children aged four and six years of his income is(a) £50 per week, (b) £130 per week (c) £160 per week.

  Married couple with two children aged 4 and 6

  £ per week

  Child Benefit

  15·50

  Assumed rent

  25·60

  Assumed community charge

  9·62

  Gross earnings

  Tax

  National insurance

  Take home pay

  Family Credit

  Rent rebate

  Community charge benefit

  Total net income

  Net income after rent and community charge

  £ per week

  £ per week

  £ per week

  £ per week

  £ per week

  £ per week

  £ per week

  £ per week

  £ per week

  50·00

  0·00

  1·28

  48·72

  57·70

  16·49

  5·59

  144·00

  108·78

  130·00

  9·78

  8·48

  111·74

  23·06

  0·00

  1·34

  151·64

  116·42

  160·00

  17·28

  11·18

  131·54

  9·20

  0·00

  0·00

  156·24

  121·02

  Mr. Ralph Howell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will give of the number of
  522
  Mr. Mellor
  The population figures for England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland used for the per capita calculations in the 1990 analysis of identifiable public expenditure and in the updated version of the table on public expenditure by territory and region given in appendix F of the statistical supplement to the autumn statement (Cm 1520) are set out in table 1. The population figures for the regions of England used in the latter analysis are set out in table 2.

  Mr. Jack
  Income support is an inappropriate benefit, but my hon. Friend may be interested in the figures with family credit which is a more suitable benefit for the examples. The information is set out in the table. All assumptions are as set out in the published tax benefit model tables. Each family is assumed to live in council property appropriate to its size and to pay estimated average rent and community charge. Average rents are provisional 1991–92 figures and community charge has been assessed at £250 per annum. Any relevant changes announced in the Budget have also been incorporated.

  It should be noted that the results in the tables remain arbitrary. They cannot reflect, except by chance, the actual circumstances of particular people and cannot claim to be representative of the population at large. The tables use hypothetical rents so they do not reflect the full range of housing costs which people can pay.

  income support or family income supplement recipients

  523
  for each of the years 1979 to 1990 showing, in each case, the number of recipients estimated to be liable to income tax at the date of their previous claim.

  Mr. Jack
  Information on the number of recipients liable to income tax is not available.

  Incomes
  Mr.Ralph Howell
  To ask the Secretary of States for Social Security if he will publish tables similar to the tax benefit model table showing the net weekly spending power for each of(a) a single person, (b) a married couple with no children, (c) a couple with a child aged 11 years, (d) a couple with two children aged eight and 11 years, (e) a couple with three children aged eight, 11 and 15 years, (f) a couple with four children aged three, eight, 11 and 15 years with weekly earnings of (i) £60, (ii) £70, (iii) £80, (iv) £90, (v) £100, (vi) £110, (vii) £120, (viii) £130, (ix) £140, (x) £150, (xi) £160, (xii) £170, and (xiii) £180 together with net weekly spending power in the first weeks of unemployment when the individuals concerned are classified as long-term unemployed.

  Mr. Jack
  The information is set out in the tables. All assumptions are as set out in the published tax benefit model tables. Each family is assumed to live in council property appropriate to its size and to pay estimated average rent and community charge. Average rents are provisional 1991–92 figures and community charge has been assessed at £250 per annum. Any relevant changes announced in the Budget have also been incorporated.

  It should be noted that the results in the tables remain arbitrary. They cannot reflect, except by chance, the actual circumstances of particular people and cannot claim to be representative of the population at large. The tables use hypothetical rents so they do not reflect the full range of housing costs which people can pay.

  Single Person

  Total net income on income support: £64·73

  Net income after rent and community charge on income support: £38·69

  Gross earnings

  Net income before rent and community charge

  Net income after rent and community charge

  (£ per week)

  (£ per week)

  (£ per week)

  60

  72·36

  46·32

  70

  73·85

  47·81

  80

  75·40

  49·36

  90

  78·46

  52·42

  100

  85·06

  59·02

  110

  91·66

  65·62

  120

  98·26

  72·22

  130

  104·86

  78·82

  140

  111·46

  85·42

  150

  118·06

  92·02

  160

  124·66

  98·62

  170

  131·26

  105·22

  180

  137·86

  111·82

  524

  Married couple with no children

  Total net income on income support: £91·18

  Net income after rent and community charge on income support: £60·33

  Gross earnings

  Net income before rent and community charge

  Net income after rent and community charge

  (£ per week)

  (£ per week)

  (£ per week)

  60

  86·75

  55·90

  70

  95·85

  65·00

  80

  101·93

  71·08

  90

  103·75

  72·90

  100

  105·11

  74·26

  110

  106·43

  75·58

  120

  107·90

  77·05

  130

  113·51

  82·66

  140

  119·12

  88·27

  150

  124·94

  94·09

  160

  131·54

  100·69

  170

  138·14

  107·29

  180

  144·74

  113·89

  Married couple with one child aged 11

  Total net income on income support: £123·93

  Net income after rent and community charge on income support: £90·88

  Gross earnings

  Net income before rent and community charge

  Net income after rent and community charge

  (£ per week)

  (£ per week)

  (£ per week)

  60

  135·98

  102·93

  70

  137·14

  104·09

  80

  137·69

  104·64

  90

  138·23

  105·18

  100

  138·65

  105·60

  110

  139·05

  106·00

  120

  139·94

  106·89

  130

  141·63

  108·58

  140

  143·31

  110·26

  150

  144·99

  111·94

  160

  146·68

  113·63

  170

  148·36

  115·31

  180

  152·99

  119·94

  Married couple with two children aged 8 and 11

  Total net income on income support: £142·30

  Net income after rent and community charge on income support: £107·08

  Gross earnings

  Net income before rent and community charge

  Net income after rent and community charge

  (£ per week)

  (£ per week)

  (£ per week)

  60

  152·22

  117·00

  70

  153·38

  118·16

  80

  153·93

  118·71

  90

  154·47

  119·25

  100

  154·89

  119·67

  110

  155·29

  120·07

  120

  156·35

  121·13

  130

  158·04

  122·82

  140

  159·72

  124·50

  150

  161·40

  126·18

  160

  162·64

  127·42

  170

  164·62

  129·40

  180

  166·60

  131·38

  Married couple with three children aged 8, 11 and 15

  Total net income on income support: £164·90
  525
  Net income after rent and community charge on income support: £129·68

  Gross earnings

  Net income before rent and community charge

  Net income after rent and community charge

  (£ per week)

  (£ per week)

  (£ per week)

  60

  172·69

  137·47

  70

  173·85

  138·63

  80

  174·40

  139·18

  90

  174·94

  139·72

  100

  175·80

  140·58

  110

  177·48

  142·26

  120

  179·16

  143·94

  130

  180·85

  145·63

  140

  182·03

  146·81

  150

  184·01

  148·79

  160

  185·99

  150·77

  170

  187·97

  152·75

  180

  189·95

  154·73

  Married couple with four children aged 3, 8, 11 and 15

  Total net income on income support: £180·35

  Net income after rent and community charge on income support:£145·13

  Gross earnings

  Net income before rent and community charge

  Net income after rent and Community Charge

  (£ per week)

  (£ per week)

  (£ per weekj

  60

  186·76

  151·54

  70

  187·92

  152·70

  80

  188·14

  152·92

  90

  190·46

  155·24

  100

  192·21

  156·99

  110

  193·89

  158·67

  120

  195·57

  160·35

  130

  197·00

  161·78

  140

  198·98

  163·76

  150

  200·96

  165·74

  160

  202·94

  167·72

  170

  204·92

  169·70

  180

  206·90

  171·68

  Lone Parents
  Mr. Ralph Howell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what was the total number of lone parents and their dependants in November 1979 and November 1990 or the nearest date possible, dependent on receipt of social security benefit or income support and family income or payment; and what was the total number of lone parents and their dependants on the same dates, showing in each case the percentage change since 1979.

  Mr. Jack
  The information requested is set out in the table. The latest information available is shown, but the dates vary and the sets of figures are therefore not strictly comparable. The references to social security benefit and family income have been read as supplementary benefit and family income supplement/family credit respectively.

  Supplementary benefit 1 income support1

  November 1979

  May 1989

  Percentage increase

  Lone parents

  318,000

  767,000

  141

  Dependants

  558,000

  1,307,000

  134

  1 Annual Statistical Enquiries—November 1979 and May 1989. Figures do not include prisoners' partners.

  526

  Family income supplement/family credit2

  November 1979

  July 19904

  Percentage increase

  Lone parents

  42,000

  126,000

  200

  Dependants

  73,000

  200,000

  174

  2 Ten per cent, sample of family income supplement load and 5 per cent, sample of family credit load.

  4 The family credit figure for 1990 shows the position at the end of July.

  Total of lone parent families3

  November 1979

  November 1986

  Percentage increase

  Lone parents

  840,000

  1,010,000

  20

  Dependants

  1,400,000

  1,600,000

  14

  3 Office of Population, Censuses and Surveys—"Population Trends 45" (Autumn 1986) and "Population Trends 55" (Spring 1989).

  Benefits and Allowances
  Mr. Ralph Howell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what was the value in real terms, in absolute figures and as a percentage of retirement and other state pensions and all other welfare and national insurance benefits and allowances paid in(a) November 1979 and (b) November 1990; and what were the actual figures for each benefit in each year.

  Miss Widdecombe
  The last uprating date for which such calculations were made was April 1990 and I refer the hon. Member to the reply to the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Meacher) on 28 June 1990 at columns 355–66 and the reply to the right hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ashley) on 2 July 1989 at columns 455–56. The missing figures on the real level of invalidity pension are the same as those for retirement pension given in the earlier answer.

  These answers do not cover income-related benefits such as income support. The levels of all income-related benefits payable in November 1979 and 1990 can be found in "Social Security Statistics" for 1980 and 1990 respectively, which are in the Library. Changes over time to the benefit system have rendered increasingly meaningless any attempt to make hypothetical comparisons between what people get now under the various income-related benefits and what they might generally have got under previous schemes.

  Personal Pensions
  Sir Geoffrey Johnson Smith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what recent representations he has received about the 2 per cent. incentive for holders of personal pensions.

  Miss Widdecombe
  This year four letters have been received from members of the public about the 2 per cent. incentive. These have mainly been in response to press articles on the subject.

  Local Offices
  Mr. Meacher
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will publish a breakdown of the national and local benefit agency structure on a constituency basis.

  Miss Widdecombe
  There are currently no plans to publish a guide containing this information. However,
  527
  district office managers will be contacting individual Members in the near future with details of how the boundaries of the district structure relate to their constituencies.

  State Pensions
  Mr. Meacher
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many men aged 64 years are receiving a social security benefit; what would be the additional cost of paying them retirement pension; and what would be the cost of providing retirement pension to men aged 64 years not in receipt of any social security benefit.

  Miss Widdecombe
  The information requested is not available and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Social Fund
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what effect the £100 million cash limit on the social fund will have on the local and central administration of the fund; and what consideration he gave in fixing it at that level, to the risk of the fund running out of money before the end of the financial year.

  Mr. Scott
  The social fund has always operated nationally within a net budget, and the setting of a net cash limit now formalises this arrangement. This does not affect the local administration of the social fund where budgets will continue to operate on the basis of gross district budgets. We have no reason to believe that the £100 million net budget will not support the 1991–92 national gross budget of £227·7 million throughout the year.

  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security whether he will publish in the Official Report a table showing district office social fund allocations for 1991–92 and the allocations to the local offices comprised in each district for 1990–91.

  Mr. Scott
  Details of the local office social fund allocations in 1990–91 and the district office allocations for 1991–92 are in the Library. I will write to the hon. Member with details of the local offices covered by each new district office, and a copy will be placed in the Library.

  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what proportion of social fund loans was estimated to be non-recoverable in fixing the fund's cash limit for 1991–92.

  Mr. Scott
  The expected level of loan recoveries does not affect the social fund's cash limit of £100 million.

  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what is the social fund's cash limit for 1991–92 and its estimated net expenditure on discretionary grants and loans for 1990–91, in cash terms and in real terms.

  Mr. Scott
  The social fund net cash limit for 1991–92 is £100 million. Estimated net expenditure on grants and loans in 1990–91 in cash terms and real terms at 1991–92 prices is as follows:
  528

  Loans

  (At 1991–92 prices)

  Grants

  (At 1991–92 prices)

  £ million

  £ million

  31·4

  (33·6 million)

  67·1

  (71·8 million)

  Real terms figures have been calculated using the current GDP deflator and may alter. In any event the social fund budget is based on a number of factors, including the level of gross allocation permitted by expected loan recoveries and is not linked to inflation forecasts.

  Carers
  Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security, what steps he is currently taking to ensure that all payments to carers are made at the earliest possible date.

  Mr. Scott
  To ensure that all payments to carers are made at the earliest possible date, clearance times for invalid care allowance claims are kept under close and regular scrutiny. Despite claims increasing by 50 per cent. during the period October 1990 to January 1991 compared with the same period last year, the clearance time for the year to date is 38·5 days against a published target of 38 days.

  Disability
  Mr. Alfred Morris
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what methods of payment will be available to recipients of(a) disability living allowance and (b) disability working allowance.

  Miss Widdecombe
  Recipients of both disability living allowance and disability working allowance will normally be able to choose whether to be paid in the form of an order book encashable at a post office, or automated credit transfer direct to a bank or building society account.

  Child Benefit
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security whether widowed mothers, including war widows, will benefit from the increase in child benefit in October 1991.

  Mr. Jack
  It is our intention that the weekly rates of child dependency increases payable with widowed mother's allowance and of war widows' children's allowances, together with other benefits payable in respect of children, will not be affected by the increases in the rates of child benefit to be introduced in October 1991.

  Local Offices, Bradford
  Mr. Rooney
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many(a) permanent and (b) temporary staff are currently employed in the three Bradford offices; and what will be the numbers in each category from April under the district management unit.

  Miss Widdecombe
  The staffing position in the three Bradford offices on 26 March 1991 was as follows:

  Numbers

  Bradford East

  Permanent

  113·5

  Fixed-term contract

  10

  529

  Numbers

  Casuals

  7

  Bradford South

  Permanent

  113·5

  Fixed-term contract

  20

  Casuals

  11

  Bradford West

  Permanent

  120·5

  Fixed-term contract

  21·5

  Casuals

  12

  The staffing position from 1 April 1991 is expected to be as follows:

  Numbers

  Bradford East

  Permanent

  113·5

  Fixed-term contract

  4

  Bradford South

  Permanent

  113·5

  Fixed-term contract

  18

  Casuals

  8

  Bradford West

  Permanent

  119

  Fixed-term contract

  8

  Casuals

  4

  It is planned to make seven of the fixed-term contract staff permanent throughout the DMU from 1 May 1991.

  Direct Payments
  Mr. Alfred Morris
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security (1) if he will list the social security benefits which it is not possible to have paid directly into the claimant's bank account; if he will specify in each case the reason why this facility is not available; and if he will make a statement;

  (2) if he will list the social security benefits which it is possible to have paid directly into the claimant's bank account; and if he will specify in each case the date when this facility became available.

  Miss Widdecombe
  The facility for the payment of benefit directly into a bank account is limited to those benefits which are fully computerised.

  Pending completion of the Department's computerisation programme, the following benefits are those currently payable by automated credit transfer direct to a bank or building society. Also shown are the dates when that facility was introduced:

  Year

  Retirement pension/widows benefit

  1982

  Child benefit

  1983

  War pension

  1983

  Mobility allowance

  1983

  Attendance allowance

  1985

  Family credit

  1988

  Residential Homes
  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what information local benefit offices are required to supply him with in regard to income support payments to residents of private residential or nursing homes.
  530
  Miss Widdecombe
  Data are collected from the files of a 1 per cent. sample of all income support recipients in each local office. For people in residential care or nursing homes the income support data are the weekly amount in payment.

  AIDS
  Mr. Alfred Morris
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will conduct research into the effectiveness of the social security system in meeting the financial needs of people with AIDS; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Scott
  We have no plans to do so.

  Chief Adjudication Officer
  Mr. Paice
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security when he will publish the sixth annual report of the Chief Adjudication Officer; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Newton
  The report is being published today. As last year, it finds considerable variation in standards of adjudication both in the Department of Social Security and the Employment Service, and makes a number of comments and recommendations for improvements. These are being considered, and will be the subject of a formal response in due course.

  As the report recognises, the organisational changes currently being undertaken in conjuction with the inauguration of the Benefits Agency next month provide an opportunity to consider the scope for improving adjudication standards through greater specialisation in this work at the level of the new district offices. Although it makes no specific recommendation in this respect, I am arranging for the report's comments to be drawn to the attention of the agency's chief executive.

  Community Charges Bill
  Mr. Bowis
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security whether the provisions of the Community Charges (General Reduction) Bill entail any alterations in social security regulations.

  Mr. Newton
  We will be laying regulations making consequential amendments to the community charge benefit scheme. They will provide that any claim for benefit which is made within 56 days of the receipt of a demand notice reflecting the new levels of community charge can, where appropriate, be backdated to 1 April 1991. The regulations will also revoke the existing rule which prevents community charge benefit being paid if it would amount to less than 50p per week, and make a number of other technical changes.

  In view of the urgency the Social Security Advisory Committee has agreed to waive consultation on the regulations, which will be entirely beneficial.

  Pensions
  Sir Ian Gilmour
  To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security, further to his reply to the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Meacher) on 26 November 1990,Official Report, column 304, what are the figures at constant 1990 prices, retaining his original prices and

  531
  earnings assumptions; and if he will also show (a) the SERPS entitlement at earnings equal to half the upper earnings limit for national insurance contributions in each year at 1990 prices and (b) the category A national insurance pension in each year at 1990 prices.

  Miss Widdecombe
  [holding answer 30 January 1991]: The information requested on SERPS entitlement is in the table. Figures for the state retirement pension are set out in table 5 1(b) of the October 1990 edition of the DSS "Abstract of Statistics" a copy of which is available in the Library.

  Year

  1£ per week

  2£ per week

  1978

  —

  —

  1979

  2·95

  1·20

  1980

  5·50

  2·30

  1981

  8·85

  3·70

  1982

  13·05

  5·50

  1983

  17·35

  7·30

  1984

  21·30

  8·90

  1985

  25·20

  10·60

  1986

  29·80

  12·60

  1987

  35·00

  14·85

  1988

  40·20

  17·20

  1989

  44·30

  19·05

  1990

  48·65

  21·10

  1991

  53·20

  23·05

  1992

  57·85

  25·05

  1993

  62·75

  27·25

  1994

  67·65

  29·40

  1995

  72·70

  31·60

  1996

  78·00

  34·05

  1997

  83·25

  36·40

  1998

  88·65

  38·85

  1 Weekly amounts of additional pension payable on retirement on 6 April in the stated year (at 1990 prices) with earnings equal to the upper earnings limit.

  2 Weekly amounts of additional pension payable on retirement on 6 April in the stated year (at 1990 prices) with earnings equal to half the upper earnings limit.

ENVIRONMENT

  Housing
  Mr. Shersby
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what steps he is taking to encourage the citizens advice bureaux, SHAC and Shelter to use their grant in aid to give sufficient publicity to the availability of shorthold tenancies and to encourage private landlords to offer such accommodation.

  Mr. Yeo
  SHAC, Shelter and the National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux are receiving grant in aid in respect of work to relieve homelessness, part of which will involve advising people who are potentially homeless of the availability of other accommodation, including that in the private rented sector.

  NACAB has been closely associated with the Department's continuing campaign to publicise the changes to private renting legislation, most recently with the booklet "Now it's worthwhile being a landlord' in October 1990.

  Nitrogen Dioxide
  Mr. Gareth Wardell
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment, pursuant to his answer of 4 March,Official Report, columns 14–15, if he has any plans to establish monitoring stations for nitrogen dioxide levels at Cardiff or Swansea.

  Mr. Baldry
  The Government's intention to expand the air quality monitoring network was announced in the environment White Paper. A monitoring station will be established in Wales, but the site has yet to be decided.

  Limehouse Link
  Ms. Gordon
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment whether the mitigation agreement recently signed by the London Docklands development corporation and the contractors of the Limehouse link, Balfour Beatty and Fairclough joint venture, covering delays which occurred early in the project, involved additional payments from the Exchequer.

  Mr. Key
  No. LDDC had budgeted for potential contractors' claims. The costs of the mitigation agreement will therefore be met from within the corporation's existing resource provision and will not be funded by additional payments from the Exchequer.

  Water Pollution (Monitoring)
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what guidance notes he has issued to large-scale industry concerning the impending transfer of responsibility for monitoring of water pollution by industry from the National Rivers Authority to Her Majesty's inspectorate of pollution; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Baldry
  The NRA will continue to be responsible for monitoring and maintenance of water quality in controlled waters, and for discharges to controlled waters from non-prescribed processes. Discharges from prescribed processes will be the progressive responsibility of HMIP, resulting from IPC authorisations given under the Environmental Protection Act 1990.

  General guidance on standards and monitoring is outlined in the chief inspector's industry sector guidance notes to be published in April. Additional guidance will be given in the process, specific guidance notes to be published at least three months before IPC applications are required. Industry is a consultee to these guidance notes.

  The memorandum of understanding between HMIP and the NRA, signed in December 1990, covers agreed procedures for dealing with the HMIP-NRA interface of responsibility for monitoring and enforcement of aqueous discharges from both prescribed and non-prescribed substances to controlled waters.

  Capital Receipts
  Mr. Brandon-Bravo
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what value and percentage of capital receipts from the sale of local authority dwellings between 1980 and 1991 was spent each year by local authorities on(a) new building, (b) repairs and maintenance and (c) servicing of debt.
  533
  Mr. Yeo
  We have no figures on the use of capital receipts from the sale of dwelling houses for these purposes. This is because capital receipts form one element of each authority's pooled capital resources. As from 1 April 1990 authorities have been required to set aside 75 per cent. of capital receipts from the sale of dwellings for debt redemption.

  War Games
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment whether planning permission is required by those seeking to organise war games(a) on their own land or (b) on open land.

  Mr. Yeo
  The Town and Country Planning General Development Order 1988 grants planning permission for the temporary use of any land outside the curtilage of a building for war games, for up to 28 days in any calendar year. Use for more than 28 days requires specific planning permission.

  The consultation paper "Planning Controls over Sites of Special Scientific Interest", issued on 13 March, proposes additional safeguards for SSSIs including the withdrawal of permitted development rights for war games. This consultation paper was announced in my right hon. Friend's reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Mr. Hunter) on 13 March.

  River Severn
  Mr. Win Griffiths
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what action he proposes to take following the representations he has received on the problems of pollution and flooding along the River Severn.

  Mr. Baldry
  Water pollution control in England and Wales is primarily the responsibility of the National Rivers Authority. Representations received by my Department about local water quality or pollution problems along the River Severn are referred to the NRA in the first instance. Matters relating to flooding are the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.

  Housing Revenue Account Subsidy
  Mr. Soley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how much higher the estimated cost, and planned provision for HR,4S rent rebate subsidy, in the years 1990–91, 1991–92, 1992–93 and 1993–94, would be were it not for the assumed transfer of rental income from the tenants of some councils reducing the estimated and planned cost of that subsidy.

  Sir George Young
  Under the new arrangements each authority receives sufficient HRA subsidy to meet any deficit on its assumed income and outgoings. The total contributions to rent rebates which local authorities make from their housing accounts are currently estimated to be £195 million in 1990–91 and £311 million in 1991–92. No decisions have yet been made for later years.

  Radioactive Materials
  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if his Department is(a) currently sponsoring any research and (b) has plans to sponsor future research into methods of the safe destruction and neutralisation of radioactive materials, including wastes.
  534
  Mr. Baldry
  Research work is currently being carried out into dissolution of plastic materials contaminated with radioactivity. It is likely that the Department of the Environment will continue to fund this work in partnership with industry.

  Currently there is no research work being carried out by the Department into the destruction of radioactive materials.

  Further Education
  Mr. Bowis
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will give the amount of standard spending assessment for further education allocated to each local education authority, the principles on which this is allocated, including the formula used for student numbers, and the effect on the standard spending assessment, if any, of income generated by further education colleges.

  Mr. Key
  The standard spending assessment (SSA) element for post-16 education in 1991–92 is given in the table for each authority. The assessment includes provision for school pupils aged 16 years as well as those in further education. A separate element for further education is not identified. Details of the formula used to calculate this SSA and the overall number of students aged 16 years and over are given in the Revenue Support Grant Distribution Report (England) as amended by the Revenue Support Grant Distribution (Amendment) Report (England)—copies of these are in the Library. An estimate of fee and other income received by colleges is taken into account in calculating this element of the education SSA.

  1991–92 post 16 education SSA in million

  £ million

  Authority

  Post-16

  SSA

  City and London boroughs

  City of London

  0·398

  Camden

  11·071

  Greenwich

  13·624

  Hackney

  17·571

  Hammersmith and Fulham

  9·577

  Islington

  13·174

  Kensington and Chelsea

  6·743

  Lambeth

  21·862

  Lewisham

  16·361

  South wark

  14·037

  Tower Hamlets

  12·533

  Wandswworth

  19·749

  Westminster

  10·012

  Barking and Dagenham

  6·784

  Barnet

  21·339

  Bexley

  13·085

  Brent

  27·486

  Bromley

  17·403

  Croydon

  23·907

  Ealing

  23·909

  Enfield

  19·619

  Haringey

  20·322

  Harrow

  15·821

  Havering

  13·966

  Hillingdon

  14·408

  Hounslow

  14·385

  Kingston-upon-Thames

  9·232

  535

  Authority

  Post-16

  SSA

  Merton

  10·402

  Newham

  19·451

  Redbridge

  16·016

  Richmond-upon-Thames

  8·654

  Sutton

  10·127

  Waltham Forest

  17·085

  Greater Manchester Districts

  Bolton

  15,818

  Bury

  10,732

  Manchester

  29,553

  Oldham

  14,081

  Rochdale

  12,358

  Salford

  12,064

  Stockport

  18,976

  Tameside

  12,791

  Trafford

  13,649

  Wigan

  19,270

  Merseyside Districts

  Knowsley

  10,451

  Liverpool

  34,741

  St. Helens

  13,898

  Sefton

  19,250

  Wirral

  24,003

  South Yorkshire Districts

  Barnsley

  11,524

  Doncaster

  17,065

  Rotherham

  15,341

  Sheffield

  31,363

  Tyne and Wear Districts

  Gateshead

  9,717

  Newcastle upon Tyne

  15,134

  North Tyneside

  12,037

  South Tyneside

  9,183

  Sunderland

  16,319

  West Midlands Districts

  Birmingham

  74,585

  Coventry

  18,937

  Dudley

  17,651

  Sandwell

  19,930

  Solihull

  12,968

  Walsall

  16,304

  Wolverhampton

  16,631

  West Yorkshire Districts

  Bradford

  29,682

  Calderdale

  11,581

  Kirklees

  27,006

  Leeds

  38,712

  Wakefield

  16,302

  Shire counties

  Avon

  53·574

  Bedfordshire

  35·648

  Berkshire

  50·825

  Buckinghamshire

  45·164

  Cambridgeshire

  39·729

  Cheshire

  66·050

  Cleveland

  35·389

  Cornwall

  32·207

  Cumbria

  27·542

  Derbyshire

  53·101

  Devon

  57·768

  Dorset

  32·842

  Durham

  33·184

  East Sussex

  36·759

  Essex

  90·652

  Gloucestershire

  32·202

  Hampshire

  101·458

  536

  Authority

  Post-16

  SSA

  Hereford and Worcester

  42·782

  Hertfordshire

  66·569

  Humberside

  50·003

  Isle of Wight

  91·05

  Kent

  92·536

  Lancashire

  92·713

  Leicestershire

  55·843

  Lincolnshire

  37·423

  Norfolk

  41·174

  Northamptonshire

  32·813

  Northumberland

  16·896

  North Yorkshire

  47·544

  Nottinghamshire

  62·532

  Oxfordshire

  32·809

  Shropshire

  25·739

  Somerset

  29·717

  Staffordshire

  57·376

  Suffolk

  33·959

  Surrey

  67·831

  Warwickshire

  31·287

  West Sussex

  41·408

  Wiltshire

  34·554

  All purpose authorities

  Isles of Scilly

  0·169

  Gulf Pollution
  Mr. Tony Banks
  To ask the secretary of state for the environment if he will make a further statement on the extent of the ecological damage caused by the deliberate pollution of the Gulf and Kuwait.

  Mr. Baldry
  Reports available to me indicate that substantial environmental damage has occurred along parts of the coastline of Saudi Arabia between Khafji and the island of Abu Ali as a result of the oil slicks caused by deliberate release of oil into the Gulf. Damage to habitats such as seagrass beds, salt marshes and mangroves which are of particular importance as nursery grounds for fish and shellfish is likely to be severe and it has been estimated that 10,000 to 20,000 bird mortalities have occurred. However, a full picture must await a detailed ecological assessment of the coastline. In addition the most recent surveys show that offshore patches of light and weathered oil are now moving down the Gulf and affecting the coastline of Bahrain and Qatar.

  Air emissions from the burning oilfields of Kuwait will also have significant local environmental effects through reduced sunlight, heat and isolated cases of acid deposition equivalent to the worst cases experienced in Europe in recent years.

  Among the international experts and organisations seeking to assist the gulf states in responding to these problems, the United Nations Environment Programme has now put in hand a programme for a more comprehensive assessment of environmental damage arising from the Gulf conflict which also draws on the expertise of the other United Nations agencies concerned.

  British Waterways
  Mr. hardy
  to ask the secretary of state for the Environment what information he has on the attempts by British Waterways to sell property in advance of the
  537
  British Waterways Bill being enacted; and if he will instruct the board of this organisation to refrain from the sale of any property which would relieve British Waterways of the responsibility which that measure would create.

  Mr. Baldry
  I understand that the British Waterways Board (BWB) is proposing to sell at auction on 27 March some 60 properties as part of a programme of sale of low-income-yielding properties. The day-to-day responsibility for management of its property assets rests entirely with the BWB and the sale is in line with the integrated business strategy endorsed by the Government in February 1990.

  Mr. Hardy
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will request British Waterways to refrain from extensive sale of the properties before the new management strategy has been completed and entered effective operation.

  Mr. Baldry
  The sale of surplus properties by the British Waterways Board is entirely consistent with the board's objectives and the integrated business strategy endorsed by the Government last year. Receipts help provide waterway improvements and thereby enhance the network for the benefit of all users.

  Competitive Tendering
  Mr. Blunkett
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment (1) what changes to existing compulsory competitive tendering practice he is considering in order to implement the measures indicated in his statement to the House of 21 March,Official Report, column 402;

  (2) when he intends to introduce further local authority services into the scope of compulsory competitive tendering; and if he will make a statement;

  (3) if he plans to consult local authorities over his proposals to extend the scope of compulsory competitive tendering under the Local Government Act 1988 into housing management, legal services and computer services, as indicated in his statement in the House of 21 March, Official Report, column 402; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Portillo
  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment, will be looking at further local authority services to which competitive tendering could be applied. If further services are brought within the scope of the competitive tendering provisions of the Local Government Act 1988, consultation of local government representatives is a statutory requirement. If a new statutory framework is proposed, we shall want to take account of the views of local government in taking forward our proposals.

  Environmental Health Officers
  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how many environmental health officers have been employed by local authorities in England for each year since 1980.

  Mr. Portillo
  I refer the hon. Member to the answer my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (Mr. Key) gave the hon. Member for Wentworth (Mr. Hardy) on 12 March 1991, at column 477.

  Highway Maintenance
  Ms. Ruddock
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what consideration he has given to the implications for his Department's current review of finance and structure of local government of his reclassification of expenditure on highway structural maintenance on the primary route network as capital expenditure; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Key
  The review will take account of all relevant factors in examining the financial and structural arrangements for local government.

  Local Government
  Ms. Quin
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if, in his review of local government to date, he has considered the introduction of a regional tier of government in England; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Key
  As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment made clear in his statement to the House on 21 March, it seems likely that we shall move to a larger number of unitary authorities in England. The creation of a regional tier of local government does not feature in the Government's thinking.

  Community Charge
  Mr. Speller
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will publish in the Official Report the information in his answer of 21 March, Official Report, column 171–72, about local government support and average community charge once the figure for North Devon is available.

  Mr. Key
  North Devon has set an average community charge of £384 for 1991–92; if Parliament enacts the Community Charges (General Reduction) Bill, the new average charge will be £140 lower.

  Estuaries
  Mr. Hardy
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment in how many estuaries in England and Wales development or destruction is proceeding at a pace which he estimates is likely to damage the ecological character of those areas; and in how many of these their national or international obligation is to secure meaningful environmental protection.

  Mr. Baldry
  The Nature Conservancy Council's report "Nature Conservation and Estuaries in Great Britain" provides details of the main nature conservation interests of estuaries and the requirements to protect them. The report, which was published on 25 March, will be placed in the Library.

  Air and Water Pollution
  Mr. Wray
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will list the measures his Department will take to implement the EC Council of Environment Ministers directive of 18 March regarding(a) strict limits to toxic gas emissions by lorries and buses from 2 July 1992 and (b) the protection of urban towns with populations of more than 2,000 people from polluted waters by the year 2000; and if he will make a statement.
  539
  Mr. Baldry
  The first part of the question is a matter for my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Transport. As regards the second, member states are required to draw up programmes to implement the municipal waste water treatment directive by 31 December 1993, and these are currently under discussion with interested parties.

  Environment and Development Conference
  Mr. Steinberg
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what plans he has for consulting with non-government development organisations in the preparatory process for the United Nations conference on the environment and development to be held in Brazil in 1992.

  Mr. Baldry
  I refer the hon. Member to the reply given by my hon. Friend the Minister for the Environment and Countryside on 10 December 1990 to the hon. Member for Gordon (Mr. Bruce) at column 266.

  Local Government Finance
  Mr. Ronnie Campbell
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what has been the year on year increase in standard spending assessment of(a) Westminster, (b) Blyth Valley, (c) North Tyneside, (d) Wansbeck, (e) Castle Morpeth and (f) Northumberland county council.

  Mr. Key
  The percentage increases in standard spending assessments between 1990–91 and 1991–92 are as follows:(a) 22·1, (b) 29·6, (c) 19·5, (d) 29·3, (e) 27·2, and (f) 18·9.

  Mr. Lawson
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will give the proportion of total local government spending financed by(a) the community charge, (b) the national non-domestic rate, (c) government grants and (d) rents and local charges.

  Mr. Heseltine
  [holding answer 22 March 1991]: The proportion of budgeted expenditure in 1990–91 financed by the community charge net of community charge benefit and transitional relief is 28 per cent., by non-domestic rates is 29 per cent., and Government grants is 42 per cent., where Government grants comprise revenue support grant, special grants, specific grants in aggregate external finance, community charge benefits and transitional relief grant.

  Some 55 per cent. of housing revenue account expenditure is financed by central Government subsidies (including rent rebates), 40 per cent. from rents borne by tenants (excluding rent rebates), with the remainder from other income and balances.

  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will state the total sum(a) he expects to be raised in England from the community charge in the year 1991–92 and (b) raised by domestic rates in the year 1989–90, together with the percentage increase or decrease in the rates required to raise the sums raised in (a) above.

  Mr. Key
  [holding answer 27 March 1991]: Local authorities have budgeted to raise £13·5 billion from community charges in 1991–92, but this is expected to be reduced to £8·7 billion by the proposed community charge grant. After taking account of the community charge reduction scheme and community charge benefits, community charge income is likely to be about £6·4 billion.
  540
  Domestic rate yield in 1989–90 is provisionally estimated at £9·8 billion; net of domestic rate rebates the yield is £8·6 billion.

  The decrease in rate yield required to raise £8·7 billion is 11·5 per cent. After taking into account the community charge reduction scheme and community charge benefits/ rates rebates, the decrease is 25·0 per cent.

  Mr. Spearing
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will state for England the percentage of local government net expenditure contributed by(a) central Government, (b) industrial and commercial rates and (c) domestic rates in the year 1978–79, and of (i) central Government, (ii) uniform business rate and (iii) the estimated community charge income for the year 1991–92.

  Mr. Key
  [holding answer 27 March 1991]: In 1978–79 central Government contributed 58 per cent. of net expenditure through rate support grant and rate rebate grants. Non-domestic rates contributed 24 per cent. (of which commerce and industrial rates accounted for 20 per cent.), and domestic rates (net of domestic rate rebates) accounted for 17 per cent.

  In 1991–92 central Government grants, including revenue support grant, community charge grant, area protection and inner London education grants, and community charge reduction scheme grant, are expected to account for 47 per cent. of net revenue expenditure (equivalent to the sum of standard spending assessments); receipts from the non-domestic rates pool account for a further 34 per cent.; and community charges (net of community charge benefit and CCRS) for 18 per cent.

  Figures do not add to 100 per cent. because some expenditure is financed from reserves.

  Energy and Environment Committee
  Mr. Alan W. Williams
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment when was the last meeting of the standing committee on energy and the environment; what is its present membership; and when he next intends to convene a meeting.

  Mr. Baldry
  I know of no such committee, although my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy chairs a ministerial group on energy efficiency whose establishment was announced in the environment White Paper, "This Common Inheritance".

  House Purchase
  Mr. Gorst
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he has any plans to introduce measures which will protect house purchasers from incurring unreasonable expenses when one party to an informal agreement retracts before contracts are exchanged; and whether he will introduce legislation to require a non-returnable deposit to be paid by both parties to a house purchase contract immediately an offer is made and accepted, and prior to contracts being exchanged.

  Mr. Yeo
  I have no plans to do so. The law already accommodates several methods of buying and selling property. Buyers and sellers are free to insist on a pre-contract deposit, if they wish, in order to reduce the expenditure wasted when one of the parties withdraws before contracts are exchanged.

  Satellite Dish Antennae
  Dame Janet Fookes
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he has completed his review of the proposed changes to the regulations covering the siting of satellite dish antennae which was announced following the merger of British Satellite Broadcasting and Sky Television.

  Sir George Young
  My right hon. Friends the Secretary of State and the Secretary of State for Wales have given careful consideration to the implications of the merger. Their concern in originally proposing a general permission for two dishes per dwelling house was to ensure fair competition between major operators in the satellite broadcasting field. In the circumstances following the merger, they see no immediate case for pressing ahead with a general permission for two dishes.

  They propose, therefore, to retain the present general permission for one dish per dwelling house, but to go ahead with the other proposals which they made in November to secure better protection of visual amenity and sensitive areas. A small change is being made to the proposed definition of the size of a dish to bring it into line with current practice in the industry. The necessary amendments to the Town and Country Planning General Development Order will be laid in Parliament shortly. I should however make clear that, should the Independent Television Commission license another significant direct broadcasting by satellite (DBS) provider or should another major satellite service emerge that cannot be received by means of an Astra aerial, they would consider the case for moving back to a general permission for two dishes. They look to the industry to press ahead with technical innovation which will lessen the impact of these dishes on visual amenity.

  Renewable Energy
  Mr. Bellingham
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what.is his policy in relation to development proposals for wind farms and other kinds of renewable energy installations.

  Sir George Young
  The Government's policy on renewable energy is set out in the reply given today by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy to my hon. Friend the Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Mr. Evans).

  Local planning authorities should keep in mind the Government's policy on renewable sources of energy when preparing their development plans and in considering development proposals for renewable energy installations. In general, the planning system operates on the principle that planning permission should be granted unless the development proposal would cause demonstrable harm to interests of acknowledged importance; and those who decide planning applications and appeals must give clear and well-founded reasons for refusing permission. Within this framework, authorities should pay attention to the desirability of energy sources which do not result in emissions of gases harmful to the environment such as carbon dioxide; such sources of energy should be harnessed wherever practicable. Equally, authorities should pay attention to the need to protect the local environment from damage and any loss of amenity which
  542
  renewable energy installations may cause. Such loss of amenity may include any noise or smell likely to arise from the installations, and their visual impact on the countryside.

  The Departments of Energy and of the Environment and the Welsh Office are preparing planning policy guidance about this for local authorities. I hope that a draft of such guidance will be ready to issue for public

  "The Three Graces"
  Mr. Cormack
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment when he expects to be in a position to decide whether the statue of "The Three Graces", previously at Woburn abbey, is or was part of a listed building.

  Sir George Young
  In the light of all the available evidence and further legal advice, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has decided that the statue is not part of the listed building. He believes that the question whether the statue is part of a listed building turns on the question whether it was a fixture at the date of listing of the Woburn sculpture gallery in 1961. In deciding that question, he has applied the common law tests—degree of annexation and purpose of annexation. Although absolute certainty is not possible, he considers that the balance of argument is firmly against the statue having been a fixture in 1961.

  It follows from my right hon. Friend's decision that the question of listed building enforcement action no longer arises. He has also reconsidered the need for public consultation on the issue of controls over moveable fixtures in listed buildings, as previously envisaged. He is no longer persuaded that separate consultation on this issue is required. He intends, however, to include advice on the matter in forthcoming planning policy guidance. A draft of this guidance (which would replace DoE circular 8/87) will be issued for public consultation later this year.

  I have placed in the Library a copy of the letter which has been sent to the solicitors acting for the owners of the statue, setting out in full the basis of my right hon. Friend's decision.

HOME DEPARTMENT

  Passports
  Mr. Fishburn
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many British passports have been issued to foreign nationals in 1987, 1988 and 1989, broken down by year and country of origin.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  United Kingdom passports are issued to British citizens, including those who have been naturalised. British nationals (overseas), British overseas citizens, British subjects and British protected persons. In some cases, passports may be issued to persons who also hold the nationality of another country, but information about dual nationality of this kind is not collected.

  Youth Custody
  Mr. Maclennan
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many young people aged below 18 years were held in youth custody in 1990.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  On 30 June 1990 about 970 sentenced young offenders aged under 18 were held in Prison Service establishments in England and Wales. Of these, about 820
  543
  had been sentenced to detention in a young offender institution, 140 to detention under the Children and Young Persons Act, 1933 and about 10 to detention in default of payment of a fine, compensation order or costs.

  Mr. Maclennan
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will list in the Official Report the number of people who were sentenced to youth custody in 1988, 1989 and 1990; and how many (a) came from a one-parent family, (b) came from a home where there had been a marriage break-up, or (c) had no parents.

  Mr. John Patten
  In England and Wales in 1988, a total of 24,118 offenders were detained in a young offender institution. The figure fell to 19,092 in 1989. Data for 1990 are not yet available. This information is published annually in volumes 1 and 2 of the "Criminal Statistics, England and Wales, Supplementary Tables", copies of which are in the Library. Information is not collected centrally on the family background of these offenders.

  Mr. Maclennan
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the average weekly cost of keeping a person in youth custody.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  The average weekly cost of keeping a person in an open and closed youth establishment in 1989–90, the latest year for which information is available, was £459 and £346 respectively.

  Durham Prison
  Mr. Steinberg
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the cost per woman inmate in H wing of Durham prison per week.

  Mrs. Rumbold
  The cost of keeping a woman in H wing of Durham prison is not separately available. The average weekly cost of holding an inmate in Durham prison in 1989–90, the latest year for which information is available, was £260.

  Police Officers
  Ms. Gordon
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many police officers in London have taken early retirement in each of the past five years who have(a) been suspended, (b) taken extended sick leave or (c) were being investigated for any alleged offences.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  I will write to the hon. Member.

  Somali Nationals
  Mr. Soley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department in what order applications for entry of Somalians into Britain are processed; and if there is a priority system for urgent cases.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  Somali family reunion applications are processed in order of their receipt in the Home Office. We consider requests for priority only in exceptional cases.

  Mr. Soley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many civil servants are working on processing applications of Somalians wishing to join their families in Britain.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  There are 18 civil servants employed in the asylum division engaged among other duties in 544
  processing Somali family reunion cases. There are also a small number of entry clearance officers at posts outside Somalia who give some time to this work.

  Mr. Soley
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the average time it takes for applications to be processed for Somalians wishing to enter Britain to be reunited with their families; and what is the longest time for any one case.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  At present, because of conditions in the Horn of Africa, Somali family reunion applicants may, if they wish, lodge an application through a sponsor in the United Kingdom direct to the Home Office, rather than at a post abroad, as would normally be required. The average time between receipt of an application in the asylum division and a decision is 14 months. The oldest unresolved Somali family reunion application was received on 30 November 1989.

  Channel Islands
  Mr. Bowis
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what representations he has received from Mr. Geoffrey Cooper about the maladministration of justice in the Channel Island of Jersey under his responsibility for the good government of those islands.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  Between 1982 and 1987, we received from Mr. Cooper or from two hon. Members on his behalf representations that the United Kingdom Government should intervene in the administration of justice in Jersey, particularly in light of the conduct and outcome of civil litigation there involving Mr. Cooper. As was explained in reply to each such representation, we have found no reason so to intervene.

  Parking Offences
  Mr. Tony Banks
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many parking tickets have been received and paid by his Department in each year since 1988 in respect of official vehicles.

  Mr. Kenneth Baker
  Most fixed penalty notices are served direct on the driver of a vehicle, for payment by the driver in accordance with departmental rules; no record is kept of these. The number of fixed penalty notices to owner in respect of parking offences served on the Home Office was:

  1988 — 9

  1989 — 8

  1990 — 6

  These were forwarded to the drivers of the vehicles for them to pay.

  In exceptional circumstances, drivers may be reimbursed from official funds; details of such payments are not recorded separately and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

  Immigration
  Mr. Madden
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when the application for British citizenship submitted by Ms. Farhat Yasmin on 16 May 1989, Ref. F190117/2, will be considered; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  Consideration of the case has now started and a decison will be taken when the necessary inquiries have been completed.

  Forensic Science
  Mr. Morgan
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what discussions he has had with the Association of Chief Constables concerning the impact of the impending new charging system for Home Office forensic science laboratory work on the efficiency of large scale murder inquiries using(a) DNA testing and (b) other exhaustive advanced forensic technology.

  Mr. Peter Lloyd
  Discussions have taken place between senior managers in the forensic science service and representatives of the Association of Chief Police Officers about the impact of the new charging systems on the full range of services provided for the police by the service. Discussions on specific requests take place locally.

HEALTH

  GP Budgets
  Mr. Robin Cook
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will give the names and addresses of the general practices that will be budget holding from 1 April.

  GP fundholding preparatory allowance

  Region

  Estimated total expenditure 1990–91

  Number of fundholding units1

  Estimated total expenditure 1990–91—practices withdrawing during preparatory year

  Number of practices

  Northern

  464,000

  28

  16,000

  1

  Yorkshire

  558,481

  34

  14,481

  3

  Trent

  438,518

  28

  26,442

  2

  East Anglia

  157,353

  9

  41,291

  5

  North West Thames

  396,640

  22

  44,640

  5

  North East Thames

  186,317

  13

  Nil

  Nil

  South East Thames

  254,000

  15

  14,000

  1

  South West Thames

  347,417

  21

  11,417

  2

  Wessex

  233,200

  17

  12,412

  1

  Oxford

  401,480

  25

  68,990

  5

  South-Western

  300,228

  20

  Nil

  Nil

  West Midlands

  450,000

  26

  34,000

  13

  Mersey

  335,999

  21

  Nil

  Nil

  North-Western

  312,754

  16

  56,754

  4

  Total

  4,372,387

  295

  324,427

  41

  1 Includes practices grouping together to meet list size criteria.

  Annual Accounts
  Mr. Robin Cook
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if(a) general practitioner fund holders and (b) national health service trusts will be obliged to publish annual accounts.

  Mr. Waldegrave
  General practitioner fund holders are required to submit annual accounts to the family health services authority (FHSA) within six weeks of the end of the financial year. These are included in the FHSA's accounts in summary form, which will be audited by the Audit Commission. The FHSA's accounts, including the summary, are submitted to me. There has never been a requirement that these should be published and I do not propose to introduce such a change.

  There is similarly no requirement for national health service trusts to publish annual accounts. However, each national health service trust is required to present its
  546
  Mr. Waldegrave
  This information is not available centrally. Regional health authorities are announcing details of fund-holding practices in their regions as they approve them.

  Mr. Robin Cook
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) how many practices received the payment of £16,000 to help them prepare for general practitioner fund-holding status;

  (2) what has been the total level of grant payments for expenditure by his Department for prospective general practioner fund holders; and what was the amount, if any, paid to practices not becoming fund holders in April.

  Mr. Waldegrave
  [holding answer 19 March 1991]: The information, based upon estimates available at 25 March, on payments of preparatory allowance to prospective GP fund-holders is provided in the table. These payments have been used by the practices concerned to improve the quality of their management systems, which will be of benefit to patients. A number of those receiving payments in 1990–91 have chosen not to become fundholders from 1 April 1991 but continue to prepare themselves for fund-holding status from April 1992. Information on other payments made to potential fundholders in respect of computer systems is not available as it is not separately identifiable.

  annual report, audited accounts and any report on those accounts made by the auditor at a public meeting which the trust is required to hold in every calendar year except the year in which it becomes operational.

  Mr. Robin Cook
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what regulations cover publication of the annual accounts of general practitioner fund holders and national health service trusts.

  Mr. Waldegrave
  Section 98(2)c of the National Health Service Act 1977 inserted by section 20(2)b of the National Health Service and Community Care Act 1990 requires fund-holding practices to submit their annual accounts to the family health services authority. There is no requirement to publish these accounts.

  Similarly, national health service trusts are not required to publish annual accounts. However, under schedule 2, paragraph 7 of the Act and National Health Service Trusts

  547
  (Public Meetings) Regulations 1991, SI No. 482, each national health service trust is required to hold a public meeting every year except the one in which it becomes operational, at which it is required to present its annual report, audited accounts and any report on those accounts made by the auditor.

  Child Guidance
  Mr. Fraser
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what response has been made to his Department to a request from the Brixton child guidance unit of Camberwell health authority for support for the Brixton child guidance team.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  We have made it clear to health and social services authorities in the White Paper "Caring for People" that provision for children with psychological problems is a key component of a proper locally based service for people with a mental illness. There are also important links to be made to the education service. It must be for these authorities to judge what priority they can give to such services in the context of overall local pressure and resources.

  I will be responding to the request in similar terms.

  Prescription Charges
  Mr. Ashley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many people with rheumatoid arthritis pay prescription charges; and what would be the annual cost of exempting this group.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  This information is not available.

  Bio Products Laboratory
  Mr. Bellotti
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health, pursuant to the reply of 14 February,Official Report, columns 553–54, if he will list the reasons why the Bio Products Laboratory, as a special health authority, is not being made fully accountable for its income and expenditure; and whether these will be reported.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The Bio Products Laboratory (BPL) is the manufacturing arm of the Central Blood Laboratory Authority (CBLA). The CBLA is a special health authority which does account for the performance of all parts of the organisation and produces an annual report.

  Exhibitions
  Sir Michael McNair-Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if his Department has considered an application for an exhibition relating to organ transplantation to be displayed in the Upper Waiting Hall.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  Under procedures agreed by the Services Committee, I understand that arrangements have been made with the authorities of the House for the exhibition to be held in the Upper Waiting Hall from 22 to 26 April.

  Speech Therapists
  Mr. Thurnham
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what is the average(a) length of service and (b) age of speech therapists employed by the health service; and what is the percentage of female speech therapists.
  548
  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The precise information requested is not available centrally. The table shows the largest number of speech therapists employed by the health service in England were in the 25 to 29 age band at 30 September 1989. A total of 98 per cent. of speech therapists in England at 30 September 1989 were female.

  Qualified speech therapists in post by age at 30 September 1989

  Whole-time equivalents1 (England)

  Age band

  Speech therapists

  18–20

  2

  21–24

  463

  25–29

  811

  30–34

  502

  35–39

  294

  40–44

  267

  45–49

  202

  50–54

  154

  55–59

  95

  60–64

  18

  Unknown

  4

  Total

  2,811

  Source: Department of Health (SM13) Annual Census of NHS Non-Medical Manpower.

  1 All figures are independently rounded to the nearest whole-time equivalent.

  Mr. Thurnham
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what proportion of speech therapists employed by the health service left their employment in each of the last five years for which figures are available.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The only centrally available figures are for the year ended 31 March 1989 when there were 480 leavers in England. Of these 301 left the national health service; the remainder moved to other health authorities.

  Ambulance Service
  Ms. Mowlam
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what guidelines have been issued by the Government regarding the disciplinary procedures to be taken when members of the ambulance service are accused of misconduct; and what provisions exist to ensure that management follow these procedures correctly.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  Procedures for dealing with individual disciplinary cases are entirely a matter for the employing authority. Serious matters are handled in accordance with an agreement of the General Whitley Council.

  Census
  Mr. Beith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health whether he has any plans for either a statement advertising or a statement on the census form to assure members of the public that information provided in their answers to census questions will not be used to compile registers for any local government tax.

  Mr. Dorrell
  Personal information from the completed census forms will not be made available to anyone outside the census offices, including those compiling registers for the community charge or any other local charge. It would be against the law to do so. The following message is included in the information leaflet which will be delivered to every household with the census form:
  549
  "The information you put on your census form is used only to produce statistics. The Census Offices and their staff are bound by law to make sure that the information you give on your form remains secret and safe. The completed forms will be kept confidential and only used to produce information about the population in general. The Census Offices will not give any information about identified people or households to anyone else, in central government or elsewhere."

  Further, each census form contains a personal assurance from the Registrar-General that the answers will be treated in strict confidence and used only to produce statistics.

  The census offices are also publicising the message elsewhere, for example, in background leaflets, posters and advertisements.

  Southampton General Hospital
  Mr. Atkinson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if his Deparment is to compensate Southampton general hospital for the value added tax required to be paid on the cost of the construction of the children's cancer ward and development unit raised by the Piam Brown Child Cancer Fund; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The arrangements whereby the NHS could in some circumstances reclaim VAT on construction work ceased in April 1990 and health authorities' resources have been increased to compensate. I understand that the allocations of compensation made by Wessex region included an element to Southampton health authority.

  Iraqi Hospitals
  Mr. Dalyell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what representations he has received from the World Health Organisation, UNICEF or the Red Cross about sewage pipes burst under Iraqi hospitals.

  Mr. Dorrell
  I refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave the hon. Member for Newport, West (Mr. Flynn) on 27 March.

  Access to Health Records Act
  Mr. Sims
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health whether his Department has any plans to give publicity to the coming into force of the Access to Health Records Act on 1 November.

  Mr. Dorrell
  We have no plans for publicity beyond guidance which the Department will issue to the national health service. This guidance will explain the provisions of the Act and the steps which should be taken to ensure compliance.

  Mr. Sims
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health whether he has implemented a training programme relating to the coming into force of the Access to Health Records Act 1990.

  Mr. Dorrell
  No. The Department will issue guidance to the national health service. It will be a matter for individual health authorities to bring this guidance to the attention of their staff and to ensure that it is followed.

  Community Care
  Mr. Paice
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will make a statement on the implications for community care policy of the statement of 21 March by the Secretary of State for the Environment on the funding and structure of local government.

  Mr. Waldegrave
  Responsibility for managing social services, including the phased introduction of community care between 1 April 1991 and 1 April 1993, will continue to rest with local government.

  Middle East
  Mr. Dalyell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what representations he has received from medical experts and doctors about the trend in the scale of the epidemic in the middle east.

  Mr. Dorrell
  None. However, the Department is in touch with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office on the question of humanitarian assistance to the middle east and Iraq and Kuwait in particular.

  Services for the Deaf
  Mr. Ashley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many psychiatric consultants can communicate in sign language with deaf patients; and where they practice.

  Mr. Dorrell
  This information is not available centrally.

  Mr. Ashley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will list the services for which there is supra-regional funding and indicate those which provide services specifically related to deafness.

  Mr. Dorrell
  The following services will be designated and funded as supra-regional services in 1991–92:

  Choriocarcinoma services

  Craniofacial services

  Heart, heart-lung and lung transplantation

  Liver transplantation

  Specialised liver services

  Neonatal and infant cardiac surgery

  Services for primary bone tumours

  Spinal injury units

  Treatment of retinoblastoma

  Treatment of arterio-venous malformations by stereotactic radiosurgery

  Psychiatric services for deaf people

  The last-named service is the only one which is related specifically to deafness.

  Mr. Tony Lloyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) if he will make a statement on the future provision of psychiatric services for the deaf presently provided at Whittingham hospital;

  (2) what steps he is taking to resolve the financial position of psychiatric services for the deaf planned for Prestwich hospital.

  Mr. Ashley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will list the representations he has received regarding the re-location of the department of psychiatry for the deaf at Whittingham hospital; and what response he has made.

  Mr. Dorrell
  I refer the right hon. and hon. Members to the reply I gave the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Mr. Corbett) on 26 March at column 370.
  551
  We have received 10 letters from hon. Members. Officials have also received correspondence from the consultant psychiatrist involved in the provision of the service, and from the principal national organisation representing deaf people.

  Mr. Ashley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many psychiatric departments there are in the United Kingdom which specifically provide for profoundly deaf people and where specialists can communicate with deaf patients in sign language.

  Mr. Dorrell
  There are psychiatric units which specifically provide for the needs of profoundly deaf people at Whittingham hospital near Preston and Springfield hospital in Wandsworth. It is open to psychiatric units to obtain sign language services where they are needed to communicate with deaf patients.

  Mr. Ashley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many deaf people, reliant on sign language for communication, are(a) in-patients and (b) out-patients in psychiatric hospitals; and how many psychiatric hospitals have patients who are reliant on sign language.

  Mr. Dorrell
  This information is not available centrally.

  Residential Care
  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what advice he has given to local authorities as to the amount of direct provision of residential care for the elderly they should retain in order to meet their obligations under the National Assistance Act 1948.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The policy guidance "Community Care in the Next Decade and Beyond", issued to local authorities in November, made it clear that direct provision of services by local authorities is expected to continue to play an important part in the new mixed economy of care. It also stated that authorities should introduce changes in their service provision at a pace appropriate to their organisation and plans. The extent of direct provision of services is for local authorities to determine having regard to local factors.

  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what research he has undertaken into the comparative life expectancy of elderly persons in residential establishments as against those living independently in the community.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  I refer the hon. Member to the reply that I gave him on 15 March at column 707. The Department has not undertaken research bearing directly on this subject.

  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what guidance he gives to local authorities in respect of the placement of(a) elderly persons who have been assessed as financially able to pay the full costs of care provided and (b) persons eligible for social security benefits, as between part III accommodation and care home trusts or private homes.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  Decisions about residential placements should follow assessment of the individual's needs and consideration of the range of residential care available, not the financial resources of the individual. As explained in the White Paper "Caring for People",552
  individuals should be able to exercise the maximum possible choice about the home they enter. They should be able to look for a place in a more expensive home if they or their relatives and friends wish and are able to make a contribution towards the cost of care. Social services authorities will be expected to make maximum possible use of independent providers when arranging placements.

  Children's Hospital, Manchester
  Mr. Tony Lloyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what decision has been made by the North Western regional health authority as to whether the new children's hospital planned for Greater Manchester will be allowed to opt out; and if he will make a statement.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The North Western regional health authority has agreed in principle to proceed with a children's tertiary referral centre with St. Mary's hospital, central Manchester, as the preferred location. No firm decision on the timing of the development has been made.

  If this goes ahead, there are a number of possibilities: the centre may form part of Manchester central Hospitals and Community Care National Health Service Trust; remain a directly managed unit; or seek to become a trust in its own right.

  Eye Operations
  Sir Michael McNair-Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many eye cataract operations were carried out within the national health service in the years 1978–79 and 1989–90; and what was the success rate for each year.

  Mr. Dorrell
  Health authorities in England reported that 92,244 cataract operations were carried out in the year 1989–90. The figure for 1979 was 39,700. Information on the outcome of cataract operations is not held centrally.

  Sir Michael McNair-Wilson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what is the current waiting time for an eye cataract operation on the national health service.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  Information about waiting times is available by the specialty of intended treatment, not by specific condition.

  Prozac
  Mr. Ashley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many adverse reaction yellow cards related to Prozac there have been in the last six months.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The Committee on Safety of Medicines has received 370 reports of suspected adverse reactions to Prozac in the last six months. A report of a suspected adverse reaction does not necessarily mean that the reaction was caused by the drug.

  Mr. Ashley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health when his experts last reviewed the safety of the anti-depressant drug Prozac; and what advice they gave regarding the possibility of side effects.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The anti-depressant, Prozac, is a relatively new drug and therefore its safety is reviewed on a monthly basis. The Committee on Safety of Medicines has examined the possibility that Prozac may be
  553
  associated with suicidal thoughts or violent behaviour. The committee concluded that the available evidence does not support this hypothesis. The safety of Prozac will be kept under review.

  Cervical Smear Tests
  Mr. Hinchliffe
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what priority is given to cervical smear test results of patients with known abnormalities such as cancer.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  Department of Health guidance to health authorities on cervical screening states that it is essential that all abnormal smears are followed up. Information on local arrangements is not held centrally.

  AIDS
  Mr. Alfred Morris
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what is his estimate of the number of people with AIDS in Great Britain at the time the Office of Population Censuses and Surveys was undertaking its research on the prevalence of disability.

  Mrs. Virginia Bottomley
  The Office of Population Censuses and Survey's research was undertaken between 1985 and 1988. Data on AIDS cases are collected by the communicable disease surveillance centre (CDSC) and communicable disease (Scotland) unit (CD(S)U). The information is as follows:

  Year

  Cases reported to CDSC andCD(S)U

  Known deaths

  People alive

  1985

  393

  188

  205

  1986

  848

  451

  397

  1987

  1,490

  793

  697

  1988

  2,319

  1,192

  1,127

  Employment training

  Special needs groups as a proportion of all entrants

  percentage

  1988–89

  1989–90

  English as a second language

  People with disabilities

  Literacy and numeracy need

  English as a second language

  People with disabilities

  Literacy and numeracy needs

  Scotland

  1

  10

  11

  1

  9

  8

  Northern

  1

  9

  13

  1

  8

  11

  Yorkshire and Humberside

  1

  10

  16

  1

  10

  14

  North West

  1

  11

  15

  1

  9

  12

  West Midlands

  1

  12

  23

  2

  11

  18

  East Midlands

  2

  14

  19

  2

  13

  16

  Wales

  1

  11

  21

  1

  12

  14

  South West

  1

  15

  18

  1

  14

  19

  South East

  1

  15

  17

  1

  13

  13

  London

  2

  10

  22

  5

  9

  18

  Great Britain

  1

  12

  18

  1

  11

  15

  1 Less than 0·5 per cent.

  Source: ET Starts Database.

  Mr. Leighton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many trainees were on employment training for each of the last 24 months; and what numbers are planned in future.

  Mr. Jackson
  Numbers in training on ET for the last 24 months are given in the table. Negotiations are still

  Oil Wells, Kuwait
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Health what equipment has been made available to British troops still in Kuwait and the Kuwaiti Government for use by Kuwaiti residents to protect against the hydrocarbons released from the burning oil wells.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  I have been asked to reply.

  No equipments have been specifically requested or provided to protect either British troops or Kuwaitis against smoke from the burning oil wells, although we are continuing to assess the effects of the hydrocarbons being released. Further quantitative and qualitative analysis of the longer-term effects from the hydrocarbons released is being undertaken in liaison with the United States and Saudi civilian environmental health officials.

EMPLOYMENT

  Employment Training
  Mr. McLeish
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will give, for employment training, the total number and percentage of trainees with special needs in each of the years 1988–89 and 1989–90 for Great Britain and each of the standard regions plus Scotland and Wales; and if he will provide an estimate of special needs places in 1990–91 and 1991–92 for Great Britain and each of the TEC areas.

  Mr. Jackson
  Employment training is aimed at long-term unemployed people, many of whom have special training needs. Some groups are identified separately and the table gives details of these groups as a proportion of all starts in 1988–89 and in 1989–90. Actual numbers are not available. No forecasts are available for 1990–91 and 1991–92.

  underway with training and enterprise councils in relation to planned numbers of ET trainee weeks and outputs delivered in 1991–92.

  Employment training filled places April 1989 to March 1990 April 1990 to March 1991 (estimated)

  Month

  Numbers

  1989

  April

  185,000

  May

  189,000

  555

  Month

  Numbers

  June

  194,000

  July

  203,000

  August

  204,000

  September

  208,000

  October

  209,000

  November

  212,000

  December

  208,000

  1990

  January

  207,000

  February

  209,000

  March

  210,000

  April

  210,000

  May

  208,000

  June

  199,000

  July

  191,000

  August

  185,000

  September

  184,000

  October

  190,000

  November

  194,000

  December

  199,000

  1991

  January

  197,000

  February

  203,000

  March

  197,000

  Source: ET telephone census and Employment Service.

  Tourism
  Mr. Tony Lloyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will make a statement on the prospects for the tourist industry in 1991; and what assessment he has made of the percentage change in the proportion of British holidaymakers remaining in the United Kingdom this year.

  Mr. Forth
  The English tourist board has made no assessment of the proportion of British holidaymakers likely to stay in the United Kingdom this year. Latest available figures show that 79 per cent. of holidays taken by United Kingdom residents in 1989 were spent in the United Kingdom. My Department is giving its full support to the tourist board's "Britain's Great" campaign which is designed to promote holidays at home in 1991. We are also making available an additional £800,000 to the British Tourist Authority to market Britain overseas in the aftermath of the Gulf war.

  Marine Safety
  Mr. McNamara
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many deaths and serious accidents have taken place among waterways employees during each year since 1980.

  Mr. Forth
  Injuries to employees arising from inland water transport services, occurring in the years 1986–87 to 1989–90 (provisional), as reported1 to HSE's factory and agricultural inspectorates.

  Date of accident2

  Fatal

  Major

  Over 3 day

  1986–87

  —

  4

  24

  1987–88

  —

  4

  44

  1988–89

  —

  5

  54

  1989–903

  1

  10

  37

  1 Under the Reporting of injuries, Diseases and Dangerous Occurrences Regulations, 1985.

  2 Years commencing 1 April.

  556
  Note:—Information for earlier years was reported under different legislation and recorded under a different computerised coding system, not separately identifying the inland waterway sector.

  3 Provisional.

  Mr. McNamara
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what are the listed principal causes for deaths and serious accidents of waterways workers.

  Mr. Forth
  Injuries to employees arising from inland waterway transport support services, occurring in the years 1986–87 to 1989–901 (provisional), as reported2 to HSE's factory and agricultural inspectorates.

  Kind of Accident

  Fatal

  Major

  Over 3 Day

  Contact with moving machinery

  —

  1

  5

  Struck by moving including flying/ falling object

  —

  7

  27

  Struck by moving vehicle

  —

  5

  2

  Strike against something fixed or stationary

  —

  —

  15

  Injured while handling, lifting or carrying

  —

  —

  49

  Slip, trip or fall on same level

  —

  1

  32

  Fall from a height

  —

  8

  17

  Drowning or asphyxiation

  1

  —

  —

  Other/Not known

  —

  1

  12

  Total

  1

  23

  159

  1Years commencing 1 April

  2 Under the Reporting of Injuries, Diseases and Dangerous Occurrences Regulations, 1985

  Information for earlier years was reported under different legislation and recorded under a different computerised coding system, not separately identifying the inland waterway sector.

  Mr. McNamara
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what steps he has taken to ensure that employers of waterways workers are made fully aware of the importance of employers' safety policies.

  Mr. Forth
  Section 2(3) of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974—HSW—requires every employer of five or more persons to prepare and keep up to date a written statement of his general policy with respect to the health and safety of his employees, and the organisation and arrangements for carrying out that policy and bringing it to the attention of his employees.

  During visits to employers of waterways workers engaged in activities for which the Health and Safety Executive—HSE—is the enforcing authority for health and safety legislation, HSE inspectors remind employers of their duties under the HSW Act and pursue their enquiries and any enforcement action to the highest levels where standards of compliance do not measure up to those required.

  In addition, the Health and Safety Commission and HSE have published general guidance for employers on the preparation of safety policies.

  Mr. McNamara
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if, following privatisation of ports, he will set up a system to monitor the health and safety of workers on rivers and canals.

  Mr. Forth
  The privatisation of ports does not affect the legislation already in place which imposes duties on employers, as well as masters and owners of vessels to
  557
  ensure the health and safety of workers on rivers and canals. There is therefore no need to set up a further monitoring system.

  Work Accidents
  Mr. McNamara
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what were the fatal and serious accident rates of(a) waterways workers, (b) workers in the steel industry, (c) railway workers and (d) seamen in each of the last three years.

  Mr. Forth
  The available information is provided in the tables. Injury numbers in respect of waterways employees in Great Britain are available, but the employment data required for the calculation of injury incidence rates are not.

  Incidence rates1 in respect of injuries to railway employees2 in Great Britain reported3 4 to HSC/E enforcing authorities and agencies

  Fatal

  Major

  Over 3 day

  Total

  1986–87

  7·1

  133·0

  18,38·0

  19,78·1

  1987–88

  12·2

  162·1

  17,74·0

  1,948·4

  1988–89

  11·9

  231·5

  2,501·1

  2,744·6

  Incidence rates1 in respect of injuries to employees in the Great Britain metal manufacturing industry5 reported3 to HSC/E enforcing authorities and agencies

  Fatal

  Major

  Over 3 day

  Total

  1987–88

  11·2

  301·2

  2,430·5

  2,742·8

  1988–89

  6·0

  384·5

  2,552·9

  2,943·4

  1989–90

  4·1

  336·6

  2,605·5

  2,946·2

  Incidence rates1 in respect of injuries to merchant seamen reported6 to the Department of Transport

  7 Fatal

  Over 3 day

  Total

  1987

  158·8

  2,241·9

  2,400·7

  1988

  52·0

  2,404·0

  2,456·0

  1989

  27·6

  2,291·3

  2,318·9

  1 Rate per 100,000 employees.

  2 Railways defined by Standard Industrial Classification (revised 1980) (SIC80)—Class 71.

  3 As reported under the Reporting of Injuries, Diseases and Dangerous Occurences Regulations, 1985 (RIDDOR) and collected on a financial year basis (years commencing I April).

  4 Railway Inspectorate only able to provide data on injuries reported to them between April and December 1989 (9 months). Consequently, the calculation of the provisional 1989–90 annual injury incidence rate is not possible.

  5 Steel industry injuries cannot be separately identified from those occurring in the metal manufacturing industry as a whole. Metal manufacturing is defined by SIC80—Class 22.

  6 Injuries occurring on board, or on access equipment to, all vessels registered in the United Kingdom and as reported under the Merchant Shipping (Safety Officials and Reporting of Accidents and Dangerous Occurrences) Regulations 1982 (SORADO) and Merchant Shipping (Accident Investigation) Regulations 1989 and collected on a calendar year basis. This legislation categorises all non-fatal injuries causing over 3 days absence from work as an "over 3 day" injury. Major injuries are not separately classified. Injuries to merchant seamen injured on-shore and therefore falling within the jurisdiction of the HSE, cannot be distinguished from those occurring to dockers and other workers in shore establishments.

  7 The fatal injury incidence rate for 1987 includes the 38 deaths of crew members in the Herald of Free Enterprise Disaster.

  8 Provisional.

  Youth Training, Manchester
  Mr. Tony Lloyd
  To ask the Secretary of State For Employment what information he has on the closure or planned closure of youth training schemes and places in the Manchester TEC area since that TEC became operational.

  Mr. Jackson
  Manchester TEC decides on which youth training providers to contract with, taking into account the quality of training offered and value for money.

  Mr. Tony Lloyd
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will make a statement on the provision of special needs youth training in the Manchester TEC area.

  Mr. Jackson
  I am satisfied that adequate provision is available to meet the needs of all those young people with special training needs in the Manchester training and enterprise council area.

  Higher Qualifications
  Mr. McLeish
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what was the total number of people by higher qualifications held, by sex, for Great Britain and each of the standard regions in spring 1990.

  Mr. Jackson
  Preliminary results are available from the 1990 labour force survey. As they form an extensive set of tables, I will write to the hon. Member giving the information requested.

  NACRO, Bradford
  Mr. Rooney
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what guidance has been given to TECs on dealing with training providers covering special groups; which National Association for the Care and Resettlement of Offenders—employment training providers will not be funded in 1991–92; how many days' notice of closure was given to Bradford NACRO; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Jackson
  Training and enterprise councils have a contractual requirement to meet the training needs of individuals in certain special groups. It is for TECs to decide in the light of local circumstances with which providers they will contract. My Department does not keep information on the training providers with whom TECs sign contracts or details of their contract negotiations.

  Coats Viyella plc
  Mr. Carr
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what assessment he has made of the effect of the proposed takeover of the Tootal Group plc by Coats Viyella on employment levels in the textile industry in Ribbel Valley.

  Mr. Jackson
  I have made no such assessment.

  Labour Statistics
  Mr. Grocott
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will list the average hours worked per week for full-time workers in manufacturing mineral extraction, energy and water industries for each of the countries of the European Community.
  559
  Mr. Jackson
  The information requested is contained in the Eurostat labour force survey results of 1988, table 55, which is in the House of Commons Library.

  Single Parents
  Mr. Ralph Howell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what percentage of(a) all mothers with children aged 16 years or under, (b) mothers with children aged 16 years and under without working husbands, (c) single parent men with children aged 16 years or under and (d) single parent women with children aged 16 years or under that area (i) in full-time employment and (ii) in part-time employment.

  Mr. Jackson
  I will write to my hon. Friend.

  Training (Special Needs)
  Mr. McLeish
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what was the total number and percentage of youth training trainees with special needs in 1988–89 and in 1989–90 for Great Britain, Scotland, Wales and each of the standard regions; and if he will provide an estimate of special needs youth training places in 1990–91 and 1991–92 for Great Britain, Scotland, Wales and each standard region and each TEC area.

  Mr. Jackson
  [holding answer 4 March 1991]: The table gives information about those joining youth training for whom special training needs funding is paid for 1989–90. Information is not available for 1988–89 on a comparable basis and no forecasts are available for the years 1990–91 and 1991–92.

  Employment Training

  Special needs groups as a proportion of all entrants

  Percentage

  1988–89

  1989–90

  English as a second language

  People with disabilities

  Literacy and numeracy need

  English as a second language

  People with disabilities

  Literacy and numeracy need

  Scotland

  1—

  10

  11

  1—

  9

  8

  Northern

  1—

  9

  13

  1—

  8

  11

  Yorkshire and Humberside

  1—

  10

  16

  1

  10

  14

  North West

  1

  11

  15

  1

  9

  12

  West Midlands

  1

  12

  23

  2

  11

  18

  East Midlands

  2

  14

  19

  2

  13

  16

  Wales

  1—

  11

  21

  1—

  12

  14

  South West

  1

  15

  18

  1

  14

  19

  South East

  1

  15

  17

  1

  13

  13

  London

  2

  10

  22

  5

  9

  18

  Great Britain

  1

  12

  18

  1

  11

  15

  1—Less than 0·5 per cent.

  Source: ET Starts Database.

TRADE AND INDUSTRY

  Export Licences
  Dr. Thomas
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, pursuant to his answer to the hon. Member for Newport, West (Mr. Flynn)Official Report, 25 February, column 353, how many of the export licence applications refused in 1989 and 1990 were made, respectively, for exports to (a) Iraq and (b) member countries of the allied coalition in Operation Granby in the Gulf.
  560

  Youth Training

  Number and percentage of YTS entrants receiving special training needs funding in 1989–90

  Number

  Percentage

  Scotland

  1,441

  4·0

  North West

  2,770

  6·4

  Northern

  3,192

  10·6

  Yorks and Humberside

  1,465

  4·6

  West Midlands

  1,372

  4·3

  East Midlands

  1,448

  4·4

  Wales

  799

  4·4

  South West

  734

  3·6

  South East

  1,015

  3·4

  London

  2,610

  14·2

  Great Britain

  15,254

  5·4

  Mr. McLeish
  To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what were the total number and percentage of employment training trainees with special needs in 1988–89 and in 1989–90 for Great Britain and each of the standard regions plus Scotland and Wales; and if he will provide an estimate of employment training special needs plans in 1990–91 and 1991–92 for Great Britain and each of the standard regions, plus Scotland and Wales and each of the TEC areas.

  Mr. Jackson
  [holding answer 4 March 1991]: Employment training is aimed at long-term unemployed people many of whom have special training needs. Some groups are indentified separately and the table gives details of these groups as a proportion of all starts in 1988–89 and in 1989–90. Actual numbers are not available. No forecasts are available for 1990–91 and 1991–92.

  Mr. Sainsbury
  Refusals of export licence applications in 1990 were as follows:

  (a) Iraq—38.

  (b) Member countries of the allied coalition—69.

  Figures for 1989 could be provided only at disproportionate cost.

  Timeshare
  Mr. Colvin
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what are the current arrangements for regulation of the timeshare industry at home and abroad; and whether he has any plans to change them.
  561
  Mr. Leigh
  The timeshare industry is subject to the general law of contract and, where appropriate, to existing consumer protection legislation.

  Mailshots and award schemes are covered by the codes of practice administered by the Advertising Standards Authority. These codes are voluntary but, where they fail, the Director General of Fair Trading can take action under the Control of Misleading Advertisements Regulations. He can apply to the courts for an injunction to prevent the publication or continued publication of an advertisement. In some circumstances the Consumer Credit Act may apply. The Trade Descriptions Act would apply if, for example, false statements are made about facilities at a resort.

  As I announced on 18 February, I have accepted in principle the recommendations of the Director General of Fair Trading for changes to the Trade Descriptions Act to tighten controls on statements about services and to bring timeshare award schemes within the scope of that Act. They will be dealt with as part of the general review of the Act.

  Since most timeshares are located abroad, and much of the selling also takes place abroad, further regulation, to be effective, needs to be at Community level. The Commission has accordingly been made aware of the Government's view that Community action is necessary to implement the Director General of Fair Trading's recommendations for a prospectus for prospective buyers, a cooling off period and protection of deposit moneys.

  Brewing Industry
  Mr. Nicholas Winterton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what assessment he has made of the effects of his Department's policy on the implementation of the reforms of the brewing industry on tenants and licensees of public houses; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Redwood
  The Government have done a considerable amount to improve the position of tenants. In particular, we have enacted the Landlord and Tenant (Licenced Premises) Act 1990 in response to concerns tenants had over security of tenure. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has asked the Director General of Fair Trading to assess the effectiveness of the measures introduced following the MMC's report on the supply of beer in late 1993 when they will have had time to take effect. The Secretary of State and I keep in regular contact with the National Licensed Victuallers Association and the brewers.

  Mr. Nicholas Winterton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will make a statement on the reforms of the brewing industry sought by the Monopolies and Mergers Commission.

  Mr. Redwood
  [holding answer 15 March 1991]: I refer to the answer given by my right hon. Friend to my hon. Friend the Member for the Isle of Wight (Mr. Field), on 27 March, columns 433–4.

  Licensed Trade Tenants
  Mr. Nicholas Winterton
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what recent representations he has received from the licensed trade about the position of tenants threatened with eviction by breweries.
  562
  Mr. Redwood
  Written representations have been received from about 40 tenants of one of the major brewers expressing concern about letters they had received from that brewer informing them that they were likely to be sent "notices to quit" by the summer.

  Kuwait
  Mr. David Nicholson
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, pursuant to his answer to the hon. Member for Taunton of 20 March, what his Department is doing to ensure that appropriate medium-sized and small companies are able to play a part in the reconstruction of Kuwait.

  Mr. Sainsbury
  Small and medium-sized companies are welcome to register their interest with my Department's Kuwait reconstruction co-ordination team. They will also be in a position to receive information from the British industry task force in Kuwait through the trade associations which are represented on the joint DTI/ industry subgroups covering the main sectors of reconstruction work. We see a major role for them in supplying the larger contractors.

  In addition to the trade fair programme for the Gulf area it is likely that a number of trade fairs more directly associated with Kuwait will be organised, at which small and medium-sized firms will be expected to participate.

  Mr. Corbyn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, pursuant to his replies to the hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Speller), of 8 March,Official Report, column 304, what interest has been indicated to (a) his projects and export division and (b) his overseas trade division's Kuwait desk from environmental consultancy companies seeking contracts in Kuwait to provide environmental and ecological restoration.

  Mr. Sainsbury
  [holding answer 22 March 1991]: My Department has had approximately 5,000 inquiries from companies seeking work in the reconstruction of Kuwait including a number of environmental consultancy companies. Their details are being entered on to a computerised database, but until this is completed the full information requested will not be easily available. I will write to the hon. Gentleman when I have the information he requested.

  Postal Services
  Mr. Tony Banks
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what checks are made by his Department on the efficiency of international postal collections and deliveries to the United Kingdom; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Leigh
  My Department makes no such checks. These are operational matters for the Post Office, which regularly monitors the quality of both incoming and outgoing international postal services. I understand that the results of these checks are made available to, and discussed with, the Post Office Users National Council.

  Iraq (Exports)
  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, pursuant to his reply to the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Walden),Official Report, 1 March,

  563
  column 657, if he will set out the reasons why Iraq is excluded from the list of middle east countries listed; and if he will publish comparable data for exports to Iraq.

  Mr. Lilley
  My answer on 1 March to my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham (Mr. Walden) did in fact include Iraq in the definition of the middle east. Unfortunately, because of an error, the word "Iraq" did not appear in the Official Report but the Editor has been asked by my Department to rectify this for the bound volume.

  The table shows the value of exports to Iraq from the United Kingdom, Germany and Japan for the 12 months ending June 1990, the latest 12-month period for which complete information is available.

  Exports of goods to Iraq in the 12 months to the end of June 1990

  Millions US dollars

  Exports from:

  United Kingdom

  696

  Federal Republic of Germany

  1,119

  Japan

  491

  Source: OECD Monthly Statistics of Foreign Trade.

  Market Information
  Ms. Quin
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (1) how many substantive inquiries were made under the market information inquiries scheme for each month from March 1990 to date;

  (2) how many major inquiries were made by businesses under the market information inquiries scheme for each month from March 1990 to date.

  Mr. Sainsbury
  The table lists the numbers of market information inquiries billed to customers, in the financial year 1989–90 and between April 1990 and February 1991. The list shows the substantial increase in the sales of the service in 1990–91 against those in 1989–90.

  Number

  Value

  (£)

  1989–90

  1,152

  94,197

  1990–91

  April

  215

  19,197

  May

  219

  17,752

  June

  211

  16,717

  July

  216

  20,388

  August

  315

  24,148

  September

  336

  25,441

  October

  378

  30,370

  November

  351

  24,357

  December

  108

  9,987

  January

  701

  59,361

  February

  320

  22,033

  Total

  3,370

  269,751

  Charges for the market information inquiry service are baanded and are no longer split between "major" and "substantive".

  Export Services
  Ms. Quin
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will provide an update of the figures on export services given in his answer of 22 January 1990,Official Report, columns 503–4.
  564
  Mr. Sainsbury
  The following figures show gross and net expenditure by the Department on export services6 in constant price terms:

  £ million (1979–80 prices)

  Year

  Gross expenditure

  Net expenditure

  1979–80

  25·7

  21·2

  1980–81

  19·5

  15·8

  1981–82

  19·4

  15·4

  1982–83

  21·0

  16·6

  1983–84

  20·8

  15·5

  1984–85

  124·6

  118·8

  1985–86

  224·6

  217·4

  1986–87

  24·6

  15·5

  1987–88

  323·4

  314·7

  1988–89

  425·3

  416·5

  1989–90

  523·8

  16·6

  1 Expenditure on publicity and promotion was transferred from the COI budget with effect from 1984–85. On a constant price basis, the expenditure amounted to £1·4 million in 1984–85.

  2 Export Intelligence Service revenue was transferred to the exports budget from another DTI budget with effect from 1985–86. On a constant price basis this reduced net expenditure by £0·3 million in 1985–86.

  3 Includes expenditure on publications for the then Statistics and Market Intelligence Library previously treated as part of general library expenditure (value £0·2 million on a constant price basis).

  4 Figures for 1988–89 include grant-in-aid to the International Customs Tariff Bureau (value £0·038 million on a constant price basis), and the "New Products from Britain" service transferred from the FCO in the second half of the year (value £0·2 million on a constant price basis).

  5 Excludes expenditure on British Pavilion for EXPO 92 in Seville.

  6 Programme expenditure only—does not include manpower and running costs.

  All figures have been converted using the implied GDP factor cost deflator.

  Value Added Tax
  Mr. Alex Carlile
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will make a statement on the effect of the recent increase in VAT on manufacturers and wholesalers of pre-price-marked goods currently in stock and unsold before the price increase takes effect.

  Mr. Leigh
  Traders selling to the consumer must ensure that he is not misled as to the price at which they are offering goods for sale. If a retailer decides to recover the increase in the rate of VAT in respect of pre-price marked goods, he will have to ensure that the consumer is not misled as to their price. It would be for the retailer and the manufacturer or wholesaler to agree on whom the burden of any necessary relabelling should fall.

  Estate Agents
  Mr. Michael Brown
  To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry when he will implement the proposals announced last year to strengthen the law governing the regulation of estate agents.

  Mr. Leigh
  I am today laying orders and regulations under the Estate Agents Act 1979 to improve standards in the conduct of estate agency. I am convinced that these measures will deal effectively with malpractices by estate agents and significantly improve consumer protection. The Estate Agents (Specified Offences) Order will come into effect on 13 May and the Estate Agents (Undesirable practices) Order and the Estate Agents (Provision of Information) Regulations will come into force on 29 July.

DEFENCE

  The Gulf
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what assessment he has made of the threat posed to British forces involved in Operation Granby from Iraqi possession of French-made technology.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  Though it is not the practice to release information on threat assessments, potential and actual threats to the security of Her Majesty's armed forces are kept under constant review.

  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many rounds of depleted uranium shells and bullets were fired by allied forces in the Gulf war; and what steps have been taken to clean up the desert areas where such radioactive ammunition was used.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  A small proportion of the ammunition used by British forces during the conflict in the Gulf contained depleted uranium. The use of such material by other allied forces is a matter for the countries concerned. The uranium 235 content of these rounds is less than that which occurs naturally, and any residual hazard to health from such rounds would be minimal.

  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if, pursuant to his answer to the hon. Member for Liverpool, Broadgreen (Mr. Fields), of 19 March,Official Report, column 153, he will set out the methodology used to calculate the disaggregated breakdown of the £1·75 billion additional costs incurred by the United Kingdom through participation in military activities in the Gulf.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The figure of about £1·75 billion comprises two elements: the value of major equipments lost and munitions consumed in the conflict arid in associated training (on present estimates totalling about £450 million); and the additional costs of preparing for and participating in the conflict (assessed at about £1,300 million). The latter element includes some £700 million for new equipment and modifications; £200 million for sea and air transport; and £400 million for other operating costs both in and out of theatre. Costs yet to be incurred or assessed will include the recovery, maintenance and repair of equipment, the replacement of stores, the bringing of equipment back to common modification standards, and the consequential effects of the conflict on the defence programme.

  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if any of the United Kingdom service men killed in friendly fire action in the Gulf war were hit by depleted uranium radioactive bullets fired by United States forces.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The investigations into the incidents in which British service men were killed or injured by friendly fire are not yet complete.

  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, pursuant to his answer of 19 March, column 90, which British defence companies sent staff to the Gulf region in support of Operation Granby; what type of staff were sent; and how many staff each company sent.

  Mr. Alan Clarke
  These details are a matter for the companies concerned.
  566
  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what effect Operation Granby will have on planning the level of logistical support for BAOR units; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  Work is continuing to determine the size and shape of the Army's logistic support under "Options for Change", and account will be taken of any Granby lessons learned in this area.

  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what effect Operation Granby had on the level of maintenance available to those armoured units that remained in Germany; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  Operation Granby has had an effect on maintenance and spares support for vehicles belonging to units in Germany. I refer the hon. Member to the answers I gave to the hon. Member for Rhondda (Mr. Rogers) on 28 November 1990 at column 446.

  Training Courses
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will now make it his practice to answer questions on the numbers of students from specific foreign countries on his departmental training courses.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  Our normal practice is not to disclose details of military training provided for Foreign and Commonwealth countries as these are generally confidential between Her Majesty's Government and the Government concerned. There are no plans to change this.

  Nuclear Facility (Israel)
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what information he has on the Iraqi Scud missile attacks on the Israeli nuclear facility at Dimona.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  Iraq claimed on 17 February that during the previous evening it had fired three Scud missiles towards Dimona in Israel and one missile against Haifa. We have no information that the Scud attacks against Israel that night caused any casualties or damage.

  Embassy, Baghdad
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what plans he has to post a military attaché to the British embassy in Baghdad.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  I have asked my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs to reply. He will answer shortly.

  Nuclear Submarines
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will list in the Official Report all representations his Department has received in each year, respectively, since 1987 from (a) Committees of Parliament, (b) nongovernmental organisations, (c) associations of elected authorities and (d) individuals on the subject of the disposal of nuclear submarines.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  The Ministry of Defence has received a number of representations on the subject of the disposal of nuclear submarines and related issues since 1987. These have been from a range of individuals and organisations.

  Aeroplane Crash
  Sir David Steel
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what was the national identity of the pilots killed in each aeroplane crash during training over the area of the present constituency of Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale since 1979.

  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle
  There has been one fatal military aircraft accident in the present constituency of Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale since 1979. The accident involved a United States air force F111 aircraft, and occurred near Lauder on 28 July 1987. The pilot was American.

  "Options for Change"
  Dr. Reid
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) if there will be any additional expenditure(a) as a total and (b) per head on retraining and resettling service personnel staff who are made redundant as a consequence of "Options for Change";

  (2) whether there will be any changes in the length or scope of pre-release training offered to his Department's staff in the light of "Options for Change";

  (3) whether there will be any additional expenditure (a) as a total and (b) per head on retraining and resettling civilian support staff who are made redundant as a consequence of "Options for Change";

  (4) whether there will be any increase in the number of personnel attached to the Tri-Service Resettlement Organisation in the light of "Options for Change."

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  We are reviewing the arrangements for the resettlement of service personnel in the light of changing circumstances. As far as civilian staff are concerned, I refer the hon. Member to the replies I and my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence Procurement gave to the hon. Member for Clackmannan (Mr. O'Neill) on, respectively, 12 June 1990, at columns 142–43 and 25 July 1990, at column 297.

  Dr. Reid
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) what redundancy payments service personnel and civilian support staff who are made redundant as a consequence of "Options for Change" will receive;

  (2) what measures he intends to take to cope with reductions in service personnel and civilian support staff in the light of "Options for Change".

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State informed the House on 19 March at column 149, final decisions on the size and shape of the armed forces have yet to be taken. These decisions will also affect the nature of reductions among civilian support staff.

  The expected reductions in both service personnel and civilian staff will be achieved largely by natural wastage. The nature of any redundancy is still under consideration, as are the payments redundant personnel would receive.

  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what information has been provided to the defence industry regarding the "Options for Change" study.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  Ministers and officials in the Department have regular contacts with representatives of the defence industry and have discussed a number of issues related to "Options for Change".

  RAF Leuchars
  Mr. Menzies Campbell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether he has any proposals to discontinue search and rescue operations at RAF Leuchars; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The provision of military search and rescue cover around the United Kingdom is one of many areas of defence activity currently being reviewed under "Options for Change". It is too early to say whether this will have any implications for search and rescue operations at RAF Leuchars.

  RAF Bases, Lincolnshire
  Mr. Austin Mitchell
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the future of each of the RAF bases in Lincolnshire.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  My right hon. Friend the Minister of State for Defence Procurement announced on 28 February last year, at column 290, the withdrawal of Bloodhound from RAF North Coates, which will be closed, and RAF Barkston Heath, which will be retained as a relief landing ground for RAF Cranwell. At present we are examining the scope for rationalising a range of defence support activities, and this may well affect other RAF bases in Lincolnshire, but no decisions have yet been taken.

  South Atlantic Fund
  Mr. Ashley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how much money was donated to the South Atlantic fund; how much has been given to members of the South Atlantic forces; and what has happened to surplus money in the fund.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  I am unable to provide the information requested. These are matters for the trustees of the fund.

  Mr. Ashley
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will take steps to ensure that surpluses from the South Atlantic fund and the Gulf Trust are used specifically for members of the forces injured in other conflicts.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence has no power to make directions for the disbursement of surpluses from the South Atlantic fund or the Gulf Trust.

  Taylorplan Services Ltd.
  Mr. Madden
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, pursuant to his reply of 7 March,Official Report, columns 293–94, if he will list the 20 Ministry of Defence contracts awarded to Taylorplan Services Ltd., together with the total value of each contract; and if he will explain the circumstances in which the two contracts which are no longer current were ended.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  It is not our normal practice to publish detailed lists of contracts awarded to individual companies. The two contracts which are no longer current both expired on the completion of the agreed contract periods.

  Walter Somers Ltd.
  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, pursuant to his answer of 12 March,Official Report, column 444, whether the Ministry of Defence metallurgical expert was aware of the involvement of Dr. Gerard Bull in the proposed export of steel tubes to Iraq at the time of his two conversations with Walter Somers Ltd.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  No.

  United Nations
  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what involvement service personnel or other Ministry of Defence personnel have had in discussions at the United Nations in New York in the last two years.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The United Kingdom representative at the regular meetings of the United Nations military staff committee is a serving officer. A British Army major was attached to the United Nations field operations division in New York in the period between January 1989 and November 1990 to advise on logistic and other support aspects of peacekeeping and monitoring operations primarily, though not wholly, in connection with United Nations Transition Assistance Group Namibia. Military officers and officials from the Ministry of Defence have also visited the United Nations, particularly in connection with Namibia.

  Iraq
  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many British companies have supplied him with information regarding the export of British non-lethal defence equipment to Iraq in the last eight months.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  The supply of any such information would be treated in the strictest confidence.

  Export Controls
  Mr. O'Neill
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how the work of the co-ordinating committee for multilateral export controls has altered as a result of the Gulf crisis.

  Mr. Alan Clark
  The committee's work, which relates to strategic exports to the Soviet Union, eastern Europe and China, has been unaffected by events in the Gulf.

  Naval Bases
  Mr. McFall
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what discussions he has had with(a) NATO, (b) the Allied Commander, Channel, (c) the Supreme Allied Commander, Atlantic and (d) the Supreme Allied Commander, Europe on the future of naval bases in the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  None, although the NATO authorities are fully aware that we aim to achieve substantial savings in all areas of defence support.

  Guardsman Steven Kincaid
  Mr. Onslow
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when his Department expects to finalise the necessary arrangements for the release of Guardsman Steven Kincaid from the Irish Guards.
  570
  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  Arrangements are currently being finalised.

  BFPO 3000
  Mr. Stevens
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement about the BFPO 3000 appeal.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The BFPO appeal has proved enormously successful. The public responded with typical generosity, and well over 100 tonnes of mail and parcels have been sent out to troops serving in the Gulf. More than half our troops have already returned from the Gulf, and there is less of a requirement to maintain the type of support which BFPO 3000 provided. The appeal is therefore being closed. Any residual items will, where appropriate, continue to be sent to the Gulf, or will be redirected to service personnel serving in other locations, including Northern Ireland. I would like to record the Government's appreciation of the magnificent way the country showed its support for our armed forces throughout the Gulf conflict.

  RAF Maintenance Group, Brampton
  Mr. Barry Field
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement about defence agency status for the Royal Air Force support command maintenance group at Brampton.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  The maintenance group within RAF support command will become a defence support agency of the Ministry of Defence on 1 April 1991. The group comprises a headquarters at RAF Brampton and 12 RAF stations, together with a number of aerosystems, supply and signals units established at those stations and elsewhere within RAF support and strike commands. It is currently manned by some 7,780 RAF personnel and 5,830 civilians, and for financial year 1991–92 has a projected operating budget of £288 million and a full cost budget of £643 million.

  The role of the maintenance group is to provide aerosystems and signals engineering, warehousing and transportation, and communication services to the Royal Air Force. The high professional standards which have characterised the group's support for the RAF will be maintained, and agency status will provide the chief executive with new opportunities to improve the efficiency and value for money of his organisation. The Air Officer Commanding Maintenance Units, Air Vice Marshal D. G. Campbell, has been appointed the agency's chief executive.

  The chief executive has been set the following key targets for the first year of operation of the agency:
  To achieve at least 95 per cent. of specified tasks for 1991–92, representing approximately 75 per cent. of group activity, to standard and on time, and to develop similar measures of programme delivery to cover additional MG tasks by 1 April 1992;
  To reduce the proportion, in value terms, of the total annual throughput of avionic and mechanical components tied up in work by 10 per cent. in 1991–92, and to develop a general costing system for equipment in work by 1 April 1992;
  To perform all operational support tasks to RAF or NATO standards, as appropriate;
  To keep within agreed budget;
  To improve overall efficiency by saving the equivalent of 1·5 per cent. of cash costs in FY 1991–92;
  To determine for future years appropriate measures and targets for efficiency improvement, including units cost targets, by 1 April 1992;

  571
  In light of Options and PROSPECT studies, to complete planning for group estate and asset rationalisation, including investment appraisal, by 1 October 1992;
  To develop a consistent approach to defining units of output by 1 April 1992;
  To introduce a commercial costing system for all major tasks by 1 October 1992.
  To complete and validate all capital asset registers, and to develop performance indicators for asset utilisation, by 1 April 1992;
  To develop a total quality management (TQM) approach designed to bring out continuous improvement in quality, including increased attention to the balance of quality and cost and to customer satisfaction.

  Territorial Army
  Mr. Brazier
  To ask the Secretary of State for Defence up to what per cent. of its approved establishment the Territorial Army is by(a) TAVRA region and (b) Arm/Corp.

  Mr. Archie Hamilton
  [holding answer 26 March 1991]: The information requested, as at 31 December 1990, is as follows:

  (a) By TAVRA region (independent units only)1

  TAVRA Region

  Per cent. recruited

  Northern Ireland

  89·0

  Highland

  87·7

  Lowland

  72·2

  North of England

  75·6

  Yorkshire and Humberside

  76·4

  East Midlands

  98·8

  East Anglia

  126·1

  Greater London

  68·7

  South East

  81·0

  Eastern Wessex

  103·1

  Western Wessex

  72·4

  Wales

  73·0

  West Midlands

  81·9

  North West and Isle of Man

  91·5

  1 TAVRAS are only responsible for Independent Units. Specialist Units are recruited nationwide.

  (b) by Arm Corps

  Arm Corps

  Per cent, recruited

  RAC

  80·1

  RA

  84·1

  RE

  78·4

  RE PCS

  76·8

  R Signals

  78·5

  INF

  82·4

  AAC

  79·5

  RACHD

  89·2

  RCT

  73·6

  RAMC

  70·0

  RAOC

  73·3

  REME

  79·6

  RMP

  80·5

  RAPC

  74·5

  RAVC

  72·5

  RPC

  80·4

  UOTC

  122·7

  HSF

  65·8

ENERGY

  Renewable Energy
  Mr. David Evans
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if he will make a statement on his policy for the development of renewable energy.

  Mr. Moynihan
  Renewable energy sources offer both increased diversity of supply and environmental benefits in terms of reduced gaseous emissions. In particular, renewable energy sources can play a part in reducing Britain's emissions of greenhouse gases—carbon dioxide and methane.

  The Government's policy set out in Department of Energy paper 55, "Renewable Energy in the United Kingdom—The Way Forward", is to encourage the development of renewable energy sources wherever they have prospects of being both economically competitive and acceptable in terms of the impact on the environment. This policy is in line with the approach of the European Community. The government's White Paper "This Common Inheritance" published in September 1990, said that the Government would work towards 1,000 MW of electricity generating capacity from renewable sources by the year 2005. This will contribute towards achieving the United Kingdom's target of returning carbon dioxide emissions to 1990 levels by the year 2005.

  The Government introduced the non-fossil fuel obligation in the Electricity Act 1989, which empowers the Secretary of State for Energy to require the regional electricity companies to contract for specified minimum electricity generating capacity from renewable energy sources so as to encourage the exploitation of the country's renewable energy resources. Planning applications for projects which relate to orders under the 1989 Act are in pursuit of this policy. The first order, laid in 1990, resulted in 170 MW being contracted, and a further order is proposed in 1991 giving projects the opportunity to proceed as soon as possible.

  My hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Planning set out some planning guidance on renewable energy for local authorities in answer to a parliamentary question today. Officials in the Departments of Energy and of the Environment and the Welsh Office are preparing a planning policy guidance note on this subject.

  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if he will list by institution and amount the United Kingdom projects that have to date secured funds from the EC THERMIE programme on renewable energy technologies.

  Mr. Moynihan
  Three United Kingdom projects relating to renewable energy technologies were successful in the first call under the THERMIE programme and contracts are now being negotiated.

  Project

  Estimated total cost

  Maximum grant from the Commission

  (£)

  (£)

  Vacu-Lug Traction Tyres Ltd.

  2,000,000

  700,000

  Polytechnic of North London

  600,000

  240,000

  National Engineering Laboratory

  420,000

  170,000

  The projects relate, respectively, to environmentally acceptable energy and materials from scrap tyres;

  573
  demonstrating energy savings in traditional buildings using unconventional planning and daylighting design; and wind-powered desalination by reverse osmosis on a commercial scale.

  Magnox Spent Fuel
  Mr. Flynn
  To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if he will set out the arrangements agreed(a) bilaterally and (b) in regard to multilateral treaties to which the United Kingdom is a party, between the United Kingdom and (i) Italy and (ii) Japan, respectively, to apply safeguards to Magnox nuclear fuel sent for reprocessing at Sellafield; and in each case what was the date of the first receipt of spent fuel in the United Kingdom.

  Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
  The following agreements are in force:

  (i) INFCIRC 125—between the United Kingdom, Japan and the IAEA;

  (ii) INFCIRC 175—between the United Kingdom and the IAEA;

  (iii) INFCIRC 263—between the United Kingdom, the IAEA and the European Atomic Energy Community.

  In addition, all civil nuclear material, including that received for reprocessing from Italy and Japan, is subject to Euratom safeguards under the treaty establishing the European Atomic Energy Community of 1957.

  The first receipt of spent fuel from (i) Italy, took place in January 1966; and (ii) Japan took place in September 1969.

CIVIL SERVICE

  Recruitment Executive Agency
  Mr. Alexander
  To ask the Minister for the Civil Service what progress has been made towards the creation of an executive agency within his Department to carry out recruitment and related functions.

  Mr. Renton
  I am pleased to announce that the Recruitment and Assessment Services Agency (RAS) will be launched on 1 April 1991 to coincide with the wider changes in civil service recruitment that I referred to in my

  Non-domestic rateable values

  Average poundage

  Gross non-domestic rates income

  Domestic rateable values

  Gross domestic rates income

  Nett domestic rates income

  Year

  £ million

  pence

  £ million

  £ million

  £ million

  £ million

  1970–71

  84

  131·5

  108

  76

  99

  n/a

  1971–72

  142

  86·0

  120

  142

  119

  102

  1972–73

  146

  88·0

  127

  145

  126

  107

  1973–74

  151

  96·0

  144

  149

  141

  117

  1974–75

  157

  111·0

  170

  152

  164

  128

  1975–76

  163

  142·0

  222

  155

  208

  160

  1976–77

  168

  162·0

  261

  158

  241

  101

  1977–78

  175

  183·0

  304

  162

  272

  205

  1978–79

  770

  54·0

  386

  447

  220

  188

  1979–80

  801

  62·0

  460

  464

  256

  217

  1980–81

  619

  81·0

  625

  462

  346

  299

  1981–82

  327

  108·5

  842

  469

  475

  408

  1982–83

  822

  122·6

  927

  476

  539

  449

  1983–84

  839

  124·9

  944

  482

  537

  389

  1984–85

  336

  129·4

  982

  489

  569

  407

  1985–86

  1,813

  64·9

  1,027

  1,309

  739

  441

  1986–87

  1,663

  67·4

  1,124

  1,327

  794

  501

  1987–88

  1,878

  75·0

  1,257

  1,844

  996

  592

  1988–89

  1,862

  78·7

  1,889

  1,358

  960

  694

  1989–90

  1,824

  75·6

  1,221

  —

  —

  —

  574
  reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Mr. Hayes) on 26 March at columns 364–65. It will be the third executive agency to be established in my Department.

  The RAS is being created primarily to take over the executive recruitment functions currently performed by the Civil Service Commission. It will charge for all its services; and its customers—mainly Government Departments, other executive agencies and the civil service commissioners—will be free to recruit for themselves or to go elsewhere if they believe that they will obtain better value for money.

  Agency status, together with a range of additional managerial freedoms and flexibilities, will enable the RAS to compete effectively for business with other providers in the public and private sectors. I have set demanding targets in the areas of financial performance, operational efficiency and quality of service. These include recovery of full costs; a productivity increase of 6·8 per cent. in the first year; and achievement of an overall customer satisfaction level of at least 85 per cent.

  A copy of the framework document will be placed in the Library.

SCOTLAND

  Rating System
  Mr. Dewar
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will publish a table showing (i) for each of the years 1970–71 to 1991–92 an analysis by class of authority of non-domestic rateable values, average poundages, actual payments, and uncollected non-domestic rate-revenue and (ii) for each of the years 1970–71 to 1988–89 by class of authority of domestic rateable values, gross rates, rates net of rebates, and uncollected domestic rate revenue.

  Mr. Lang
  Figures by class of authority are not available and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. However, the table gives figures that are readily available for all authorities. The split of rates income between the domestic and non-domestic sectors has been estimated pro rata to rateable values. Data on uncollected rate revenue are not available centrally.
  575

  Non-domestic rateable values

  Average poundage

  Gross non-domestic rates income

  Domestic rateable values

  Gross domestic rates income

  Nett domestic rates income

  Year

  £ million

  pence

  £ million

  £ million

  £ million

  £ million

  1990–91

  2,586

  67·3

  11,188

  —

  —

  —

  1991–92

  n/a

  58·1

  21,335

  —

  —

  —

  n/a Not available.

  1 Provisional.

  2 Estimated.

  The figures for gross domestic rates income include rebate grants and the domestic element of rate support grant. The figures for net domestic rates income exclude those components.

  Public Expenditure
  Mr. Dewar
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will publish tables comparable to tables 1 to 3 and additional analyses 1 to 3 of "A Commentary on the Scotland Programme: Public Expenditure to 1992–93" consistent with the expenditure plans in Cm. 1515.

  Central Government Expenditure

  £ million

  1988–89

  1989–90

  1990–91

  1991–92

  1992–93

  1993–94

  Current

  Agriculture, fisheries and food

  151

  160

  180

  196

  210

  220

  Industry, energy, trade and employment

  7

  27

  61

  317

  340

  340

  Tourism

  7

  8

  9

  9

  10

  10

  Transport

  26

  32

  34

  34

  30

  30

  Housing

  113

  138

  131

  125

  140

  140

  Other environmental services

  42

  42

  49

  63

  70

  70

  Law, order and protective services

  199

  216

  254

  274

  290

  310

  Education

  255

  282

  336

  399

  430

  440

  Arts and libraries

  17

  18

  20

  25

  30

  30

  Health

  2,380

  2,568

  2,815

  3,082

  3,250

  3,370

  Social work

  8

  14

  16

  28

  30

  30

  Other public services

  109

  118

  132

  149

  160

  160

  Total Current

  3,314

  3,624

  4,037

  4,701

  4,980

  5,160

  Capital

  Agriculture, fisheries and food

  31

  35

  44

  52

  50

  50

  Industry, energy, trade and employment

  232

  196

  194

  211

  190

  180

  Tourism

  3

  3

  4

  4

  —

  —

  Transport

  114

  144

  180

  182

  190

  200

  Housing

  140

  152

  208

  271

  220

  240

  Other environmental services

  18

  27

  35

  32

  20

  20

  Law, order and protective services

  20

  31

  33

  36

  30

  30

  Education

  17

  19

  42

  54

  60

  70

  Arts and libraries

  6

  7

  12

  12

  20

  30

  Health

  120

  152

  175

  200

  200

  210

  Social work

  —

  —

  1

  1

  —

  —

  Other public services

  5

  5

  7

  10

  10

  10

  Total Capital

  708

  773

  933

  1,066

  1,020

  1,040

  Total

  Agriculture, fisheries and food

  182

  196

  224

  248

  260

  270

  Industry, energy, trade and employment

  239

  223

  255

  527

  530

  520

  Tourism

  10

  11

  12

  13

  10

  10

  Transport

  141

  176

  215

  217

  230

  230

  Housing

  253

  290

  338

  396

  370

  380

  Other environmental services

  60

  69

  84

  96

  90

  90

  Law, order and protective services

  219

  247

  288

  310

  320

  340

  Education

  272

  301

  378

  453

  490

  510

  Arts and libraries

  23

  25

  32

  38

  50

  50

  Health

  2,501

  2,721

  2,990

  3,283

  3,450

  3,570

  Social work

  9

  14

  16

  28

  30

  30

  Other public services

  115

  124

  139

  159

  170

  180

  Total Central Government

  4,022

  4,397

  4,970

  5,767

  5,990

  6,200

  576
  Mr. Lang
  Tables 1 to 3 and additional analyses 1 and 2 comparable to the tables in a "Commentary on the Scotland Programme: Public Expenditure to 1992–93" consistent with the expenditure plans in Cm. 1515 are as follows.

  Additional analyses table 3 is not readily available and I shall write to the hon. Gentleman as soon as it is.
  577

  Expenditure subject to cash limit control 1991–92

  £ million

  Programme total

  Cash limits

  Per cent.

  Agriculture, fisheries and food

  249

  104

  42

  Industry, energy trade and employment

  527

  435

  83

  Tourism

  13

  12

  92

  Transport

  381

  381

  100

  Housing1

  714

  688

  96

  Other environmental services

  364

  295

  81

  Law, order and protective services

  496

  293

  59

  Education

  553

  354

  64

  Expenditure within the Secretary of State's responsibility

  1985–86

  1986–87

  1987–88

  1988–89

  1989–90

  1990–91

  1991–92

  1992–93

  1993–94

  Agriculture and Fisheries Department

  202

  177

  170

  182

  197

  226

  249

  260

  270

  Industry Department (excluding Tourism)

  284

  327

  245

  240

  224

  254

  527

  540

  520

  Tourism

  9

  9

  9

  10

  11

  12

  13

  10

  10

  Transport

  301

  285

  284

  277

  342

  385

  381

  390

  400

  Housing

  518

  558

  648

  584

  609

  660

  714

  700

  740

  Other Environmental Services

  205

  215

  239

  264

  289

  316

  364

  410

  440

  Law, Order and Protective Services

  302

  330

  370

  415

  472

  524

  567

  580

  610

  Education

  303

  326

  339

  368

  390

  462

  553

  590

  610

  Arts and Libraries

  22

  26

  26

  28

  29

  35

  41

  50

  50

  Health

  1,954

  2,071

  2,248

  2,501

  2,721

  2,990

  3,283

  3,450

  3,570

  Social Work

  33

  25

  27

  31

  37

  40

  56

  60

  60

  Other Public Services

  100

  105

  111

  117

  126

  141

  159

  165

  176

  Central Government Grants:

  Revenue Support Grant

  —

  —

  —

  —

  2,244

  2,469

  2,651

  4,130

  4,240

  Rate Support Grant

  1,657

  1,713

  1,708

  2,007

  102

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Community Charge Transitional

  Relief

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  44

  25

  50

  30

  Rate Rebates

  39

  36

  32

  27

  25

  32

  31

  —

  —

  Non-Domestic Rates

  1,023

  1,108

  1,238

  1,290

  1,219

  1,189

  1,389

  Nationalised Industries External

  Financing Limits

  232

  235

  137

  127

  -103

  -89

  49

  50

  10

  Total

  7,167

  7,513

  7,805

  8,458

  8,919

  9,725

  11,052

  11,460

  11,780

  Expenditure within the Secretary of State's responsibility in real terms

  £ million

  1985–86

  1986–87

  1987–88

  1988–89

  1989–90

  1990–91

  1991–92

  1992–93

  1993–94

  Agriculture, fisheries and food

  251

  213

  194

  194

  197

  209

  218

  220

  220

  Industry, energy trade and employment

  353

  394

  280

  255

  224

  235

  460

  450

  420

  Tourism

  11

  11

  10

  11

  11

  11

  11

  10

  10

  Transport

  374

  343

  324

  295

  342

  356

  333

  330

  320

  Housing

  644

  672

  740

  621

  609

  611

  624

  580

  600

  Other environmental services

  255

  259

  273

  281

  289

  293

  318

  340

  350

  Law, order and protective services

  375

  397

  422

  441

  472

  485

  495

  480

  490

  Education

  377

  392

  387

  391

  390

  428

  483

  490

  490

  Arts and libraries

  27

  31

  30

  30

  29

  32

  36

  40

  40

  Health

  2,429

  2,493

  2,566

  2,660

  2,721

  2,769

  2,868

  2,880

  2,880

  Social Work

  41

  30

  31

  33

  37

  37

  49

  50

  50

  Other public services

  124

  126

  127

  124

  126

  131

  139

  140

  140

  Local authority

  Revenue support grant

  —

  —

  —

  —

  2,244

  2,311

  2,316

  3,440

  3,420

  Rate support grant

  2,060

  2,062

  1,949

  2,135

  102

  —

  —

  —

  —

  CCTR

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  41

  22

  40

  20

  Rate rebates

  48

  43

  37

  29

  25

  30

  27

  —

  —

  Non-domestic rates

  1,272

  1,334

  1,413

  1,372

  219

  1,101

  1,213

  —

  —

  National Insurance EFL

  288

  283

  156

  135

  -103

  -81

  43

  40

  10

  Total

  8,932

  9,082

  8,938

  9,008

  8,934

  8,998

  9,654

  9,560

  9,460

  578

  Programme total

  Cash limits

  Per cent.

  Arts and libraries

  41

  41

  100

  Health

  3,283

  2,664

  81

  Social Work

  56

  56

  100

  Other public services

  142

  142

  100

  Associated Departments

  88

  88

  100

  Nationalised Industries

  49

  0

  0

  Local authority

  4,096

  2,707

  66

  Total

  11,052

  8,260

  75

  1 Excludes £132 million in respect of Scottish Homes' NLF repayments which is a technical adjustment and does not represent part of Scottish Homes' usable programme expenditure—ref 4.31 of Departmental Report (Cm 1515).

  579

  Public expenditure within the Secretary of State's responsibility by spending sector, economic category and in total

  1986–87

  1987–88

  1988–89

  1989–90

  1990–91

  1991–92

  1992–93

  1993–94

  £ million

  £ million

  £ million

  £ million

  £ million

  £ million

  £ million

  £ million

  CURRENT EXPENDITURE

  Pay and related costs

  141

  157

  170

  187

  211

  238

  260

  280

  General administrative expenses

  32

  33

  40

  41

  47

  63

  60

  70

  Other pay and pension costs

  1,165

  1,290

  1,422

  1,548

  1,652

  1,781

  1,830

  1,880

  Grants to the private sector

  253

  268

  293

  348

  380

  453

  490

  500

  Other expenditure on goods and services

  965

  1,022

  1,154

  1,205

  1,402

  1,582

  1,710

  1,780

  Subsidies

  229

  228

  245

  303

  354

  594

  640

  670

  Current grants to local authorities

  3,029

  3,160

  3,528

  3,815

  4,021

  4,396

  4,510

  4,620

  TOTAL

  5,815

  6,157

  6,851

  7,448

  8,066

  9,107

  9,500

  9,790

  CAPITAL EXPENDITURE

  Capital grants

  1,182

  1,193

  1,213

  1,267

  1,301

  1,533

  1,410

  1,440

  Expenditure on capital assets

  258

  272

  289

  362

  441

  473

  490

  510

  Net lending

  -64

  334

  326

  1,014

  -120

  -82

  70

  30

  Borrowing by public corporations

  302

  -167

  -220

  -1,171

  37

  20

  —

  —

  TOTAL

  1,678

  1,633

  1,607

  1,472

  1,659

  1,944

  1,960

  1,980

  GRAND TOTAL

  7,494

  7,789

  8,458

  8,919

  9,725

  11,052

  11,460

  11,780

  CENTRAL GOVERNMENT

  Current

  Pay and related costs

  141

  157

  170

  187

  211

  238

  260

  280

  General administrative expenses

  32

  33

  40

  41

  47

  63

  60

  70

  Other pay and pension costs

  1,165

  1,290

  1,422

  1,548

  1,652

  1,781

  1,830

  1,880

  Grants to the private sector

  253

  268

  293

  348

  380

  453

  490

  500

  Other expenditure on goods and services

  965

  1,022

  1,154

  1,205

  1,402

  1,582

  1,710

  1,780

  Subsidies

  132

  134

  161

  176

  194

  200

  210

  230

  Capital

  Capital grants

  380

  294

  317

  169

  194

  183

  180

  170

  Expenditure on capital assets

  228

  248

  269

  347

  414

  452

  470

  490

  Net lending

  5

  6

  1

  1

  19

  34

  40

  50

  TOTAL

  3,300

  3,451

  3,827

  4,023

  4,512

  4,987

  5,250

  5,440

  TRANSFERS FROM CENTRAL GOVERNMENT TO LOCAL AUTHORITIES

  Current grants to local authorities

  3,029

  3,160

  3,528

  3,815

  4,021

  4,396

  4,510

  4,620

  Capital grants to local authorities

  26

  17

  20

  38

  38

  61

  70

  80

  Net capital allocations

  680

  782

  761

  772

  785

  780

  840

  870

  TOTAL

  3,735

  3,959

  4,309

  4,625

  4,843

  5,236

  5,420

  5,570

  £ million

  1986–87

  1987–88

  1988–89

  1989–90

  1990–91

  1991–92

  1992–93

  1993–94

  Public corporations

  Current

  Subsidies

  87

  84

  75

  119

  151

  384

  410

  430

  Capital

  Capital grants

  96

  99

  114

  288

  285

  509

  320

  320

  Expenditure on capital

  assets

  31

  24

  20

  14

  27

  21

  20

  20

  Net lending

  9

  35

  -13

  -46

  -5

  -134

  -10

  -10

  Total

  223

  242

  196

  374

  457

  780

  740

  760

  Nationalised industries

  Current

  Subsidies

  10

  10

  9

  9

  9

  10

  10

  10

  Capital

  Net lending

  -78

  294

  338

  1,059

  -133

  18

  30

  -10

  Borrowing by public corporations

  303

  -167

  -220

  -1,171

  37

  20

  —

  —

  Total

  235

  137

  127

  -103

  -88

  49

  50

  10

  The figures for the year 1985–86 are consistent with Public Expenditure to 1992–93". those in "A Commentary on the Scotland Programme:
  580
  Public Expenditure to 1992–93".

  Training
  Sir David Steel
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received on the ability of Scottish Enterprise and the local enterprise councils of Scotland to provide special needs training for those who require it; and if he will make a statement.

  Mr. Lang
  Since the beginning of 1991, I have received 25 representations which, among other issues, express concern about the ability of Scottish Enterprise and the local enterprise companies to provide special needs training for those who require it. Local enterprise companies were required to make adequate provision for people with special needs in their business plans; and the scrutiny of these business plans by Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise necessarily included assessment of how well the local enterprise companies' proposals met these needs. Furthermore, one of the criteria by which local enterprise companies are to be judged is their success in catering for special training needs. There is no reason to doubt that Scottish Enterprise, Highlands and Islands Enterprise and local enterprise companies are taking their responsibilities for people with special needs seriously and will deliver appropriate training provision.

  Sir David Steel
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what estimate the Scottish Office has made for the share of the youth training budget in the Borders for 1991–92 which is to come from private sources; and if he will make it his policy that if the sum is not forthcoming he will make up any shortfall.

  Mr. Lang
  The Scottish Office has no involvement in the allocation of resources by Scottish Enterprise to individual local enterprise companies. These decisions, and any estimates on which they are based, are matters for Scottish Enterprise.

  Local Authority Expenditure
  Mr. Dewar
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland why rate rebates appears as a line without expenditure under non-voted central Government grants to local authorities in table 12.1 of Cm. 1515.

  Mr. Lang
  This line is for money refunded to the Scottish Office by local authorities that have overclaimed in respect of rate rebate grants in earlier years. The information in this line should, however, accord with that given in the main table on page 2 and I am grateful to the hon. Member for drawing this omission to my attention.

  House Valuation
  Mr. Kirkwood
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what method the district valuer in Scotland intends to use to value the purchase price of tenanted housing in Scotland.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  This is a matter for individual district valuers to determine. I understand that valuations are based and will continue to be based on an analysis of available sales evidence. This is consistent with the approach used in sales of other properties in which district valuers are involved.

  Roads
  Sir Russell Johnston
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland when he expects to announce the outcome of the public local inquiry held in February 1990, following a compulsory purchase order submitted in 1989 to enable the Highlands regional council to acquire land for the north service road, Fort William.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  I expect a decision on the compulsory purchase order made by Highland regional council to acquire land for the north service road, Fort William, and which was the subject of a public local inquiry in February and March 1990, to be announced by the end of April.

  Radioactive Material
  Mr. Malcolm Bruce
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) if he will list the countries currently negotiating with AEA Fuel Services to reprocess or store research reactor irradiated fuel at Dounreay;

  (2) if he will list the countries that have contracts with AEA Fuel Services or the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Agency to reprocess or store research reactor irradiated fuel at Dounreay.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  I understand that the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority (UKAEA) is currently in discussion with a number of overseas customers about possible contracts to store or reprocess spent research reactor fuel at Dounreay. Until these negotiations have been concluded, however, information on the countries involved is commercially confidential.

  The UKAEA has confirmed contracts for storage or reprocessing with customers in Germany. The Government have specified that all reprocessing contracts entered into by the UKAEA with overseas customers must contain options for the return of waste and that these options should be exercised.

  Dounreay
  Mr. Cryer
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what recent developments have taken place at the Atomic Energy Development Establishment at Dounreay to reduce the levels of radioactive waste discharged to the sea.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  Significant process modifications were carried out during the period 1978–83, including the commissioning of an additional plant to reduce the activity in the aqueous discharges from nuclear fuel reprocessing. Since that time further improvements have been achieved by operational means.

  Because reprocessing requirements differ from year to year and the plants are not run continuously, discharges will vary from one period to another. They have consistently been well below the authorised limits. A revised liquid waste authorisation with reduced limits was issued in 1989.

  Parking Offences
  Mr. Tony Banks
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many parking tickets were received and paid by his Department in each year since 1988 in respect of official vehicles.
  583
  Mr. Lang
  The responsibility for parking fines incurred by official vehicles was until April 1990 the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment. Since that date 15 fines totalling £240 are attributed to vehicles of my Department.

  £ million

  Revenue Allocation

  Capital Allocation

  Total Allocation

  Cash

  At 1986–87 prices

  At 1990–91 prices

  Cash

  At 1986–87 prices

  At 1990–91 prices

  Cash

  At 1986–87 prices

  At 1990–91 prices

  1986–87

  234·034

  234·034

  303·594

  15·973

  15·973

  20·721

  250·007

  250·007

  324·312

  1987–88

  253·249

  240·423

  311·883

  18·776

  17·825

  23·123

  272·025

  258·248

  335·006

  1988–89

  283·328

  250·336

  324·741

  18·600

  16·434

  21·319

  301·928

  266·770

  346·060

  1989–90

  300·502

  249·603

  323·791

  29·819

  24·768

  32·130

  330·321

  274·371

  355·921

  1990–91

  333·738

  257·271

  333·738

  13·324

  10·271

  13·324

  347·027

  267·515

  347·027

  1991–92

  358·804

  258·500

  335·332

  21·821

  15·721

  20·394

  380·625

  274·221

  355·726

  Mr. Strang
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what was(a) the revenue, (b) the capital and (c) the total

  £ million

  Revenue Allocation

  Capital Allocation

  Total Allocation

  Cash

  At 1986–87 prices

  At 1990–91 prices

  Cash

  At 1986–87 prices

  At 1990–91 prices

  Cash

  At 1986–87 prices

  At 1990–91 prices

  1986–87

  1,454·658

  1,454·658

  1,887·017

  97·455

  97·455

  126·421

  1,552·113

  1,552·113

  2,013·438

  1987–88

  1,577·360

  1,497·476

  1,942·562

  105·955

  100·589

  130·486

  1,683·315

  1,598·065

  2,073·048

  1988–89

  1,765·424

  1,559·847

  2,023·470

  112·374

  99·288

  128·799

  1,877·798

  1,659·135

  2,152·270

  1989–90

  1,890·162

  1,570·006

  2,036·650

  143·399

  119·110

  154·512

  2,033·561

  1,689·116

  2,191·162

  1990–91

  2,095·331

  1,615·243

  2,095·331

  141·372

  108·980

  141·372

  2,236·703

  1,724·223

  2,236·703

  1991–92

  2,259·131

  1,686·373

  2,111·346

  198·403

  142·939

  185·424

  2,457·534

  1,770·528

  2,296·771

  Mr. Strang
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what was(a) the revenue, (b) the capital and (c) the total

  £,000s

  £,000s

  £,000s

  Revenue Expenditure

  Capital Expenditure

  Total

  Year

  Cash Terms

  1986–87 Prices

  1990–91 Prices

  Cash Terms

  1986–87 Prices

  1990–91 Prices

  Cash Terms

  1986–87 Prices

  1990–91 Prices

  1985–86

  274,584

  284,100

  368,541

  19,678

  20,360

  26,411

  294,262

  304,460

  394,952

  1986–87

  295,708

  295,708

  383,600

  16,212

  16,212

  21,031

  311,920

  311,920

  404,630

  1987–88

  326,063

  309,550

  401,556

  16,977

  16,117

  20,907

  343,040

  325,667

  422,463

  1988–89

  358,201

  316,490

  410,559

  18,881

  16,682

  21,641

  377,082

  333,172

  432,199

  1989–90

  393,526

  326,871

  424,025

  32,518

  27,010

  35,039

  426,045

  353,881

  459,063

  Notes:

  1. These figures include non-cash limited family practitioners services expenditure.

  2. Expenditure figures for 1990–91 are not yet available.

  Mr. Strang
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what was(a) the revenue, (b) the capital and (c) the total

  Health Boards
  Mr. Strang
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what was(a) the revenue (b) the capital and (c) the total allocation for Lothian health board for 1991–92 and each of the last five financial years in (i) cash terms, (ii) 1986–87 prices and (iii) 1990–91 prices.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  The information is as follows:

  allocation for Scottish health boards for 1991–92 and each of the last five financial years in (i) cash terms, (ii) 1986–87 prices and (iii) 1990–91 prices.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  The information is as follows:

  expenditure by Scottish health boards in each of the last five years in (i) cash terms, (ii) 1986–87 prices and (iii) 1990–91 prices.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  The information is as follows:

  expenditure by Scottish health boards in each of the last five years in (i) cash terms, (ii) 1986–87 prices and (iii) 1990–91 prices.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  The information is as follows:
  585

  £'000s

  Revenue expenditure

  Capital expenditure

  Total

  Year

  Cash terms

  1986–87 prices

  1990–91 prices

  Cash terms

  1986–87 prices

  1990–91 prices

  Cash terms

  1986–87 prices

  1990–91 prices

  1985–86

  1,739,554

  1,799,836

  2,334,790

  118,206

  122,303

  158,654

  1,857,761

  1,922,139

  2,493,444

  1986–87

  1,866,616

  1,866,616

  2,421,419

  103,567

  103,567

  134,350

  1,970,183

  1,970,183

  2,555,769

  1987–88

  1,889,936

  1,794,222

  2,327,507

  266,270

  252,785

  327,918

  2,156,206

  2,047,007

  2,655,426

  1988–89

  2,281,568

  2,015,888

  2,615,057

  113,928

  100,662

  130,581

  2,395,496

  2,116,549

  2,745,638

  1989–90

  2,453,199

  2,037,676

  2,643,322

  150,702

  125,176

  162,382

  2,603,901

  2,162,852

  2,805,703

  Notes:

  1. These figures include non-cash limited family practitioners services expenditure.

  2. Expenditure figures for 1990–91 are not yet available.

  Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
  Dr. David Clark
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland further to his answer to the hon. Member for South Shields on 13 March,Official Report, columns 616–17, whether he will exhume the bodies of the BSE confirmed cattle that were buried in 1990 and 1991.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  No.

  Hospitals
  Mr. Strang
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many hospitals have applied to opt out of health board contol in each of the Scottish health board areas.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  Expressions of interest have been received on behalf of seven Units. These are the South Ayrshire unit (Ayrshire and Arran health board), Foresterhill and West Grampian (Grampian health board), Forfar hospitals (Tayside health board), the Victoria infirmary and associated hospitals (Greater Glasgow health board), the Royal Scottish national hospital (Forth Valley health board) and the Princess Margaret Rose hospital (Lothian health board). Of these Foresterhill and South Ayrshire have indicated that they intend to bring forward an application in the near future.

  Education and Business Partnerships
  Mr. Bill Walker
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement about support for partnerships between education and business in Scotland.

  Mr. Allan Stewart
  I attach high priority to establishing effective links between the worlds of education and business. Each has a vital role in the future well-being of our country and it is essential that they work closely together. Much valuable work is already going on in this field but it is recognised by many of those involved that the effectiveness of these efforts could be improved.

  Proposals to promote and develop education-business link activities feature prominently in the business plans submitted by the local enterprise companies and I very much welcome this. In order to further assist this work and ensure that it attracts the priority which I believe it requires, additional financial support is being made available specifically to encourage the development of education-business partnerships.

  This funding will be provided to local enterprise companies through Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise to support a variety of aspects of liaison between business and education, including providing
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  placements with business for pupils and teachers, business visits to schools and a wide range of innovative activities which will bring benefits to both education and business.

  The LEC-promoted partnerships will be expected to raise funding from other sources so that maximum benefit can be gained from public support.

  I am confident that local enterprise companies, education authorities and organisations already involved in this area will work closely together to get these partnership arrangements under way to the benefit of the whole community and I am now inviting education authorities and other interested parties to approach their LECs to discuss how these proposals can best be taken forward.

  School Examinations
  Mr. Bill Walker
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what proposals he has to improve the quality of spelling, grammar and punctuation in Scottish school examinations.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  The ability to communicate clearly in writing is a fundamental skill which should be fostered in all school work and examinations. Good grammar and punctuation and correct spelling are essential to clear communication. Currently a variety of practices is operated by the Scottish Examination Board in its examinations in relation to these elements. The board has been asked to review these practices and it has this in hand. Meanwhile examiners will no doubt take account of spelling, grammar and punctuation in accordance with the arrangements that currently apply to each subject.

  Cash Limits
  Mr. Bill Walker
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he proposes to make any further changes to the cash limits for 1990–91 within his responsibility.

  Mr. Lang
  Yes, I intend to change one of the cash limits within my responsibility as follows.

  The cash limit for class XV, vote 15, education, arts, libraries and social work, Scotland will be reduced by £1,032,000 from £233,075,000 to £232,043,000. This represents the further cash limit reductions foreshadowed in my answer to the hon. Member for Tayside, North on 1 February at columns 685–86 and will offset the amounts of £617,000 required to meet increased expenditure in respect of the St. Helena ship and £415,000 in respect of the Department of the Registers of Scotland.

  Bone Marrow Transplants
  Mr. Galbraith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make additional facilities available to Greater Glasgow health board for bone marrow transplants at Glasgow royal infirmary.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  [holding answer 21 November 1990]: Central funding for this service has been assured until April 1991. Thereafter the revenue allocated to Greater Glasgow health board will provide the resources necessary to treat its own bone marrow transplant patients; and the board will be fully compensated during the course of the year for the costs to it of treating any bone marrow transplant patients referred by other boards.

  Mr. Galbraith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the current number of patients on the waiting list for bone marrow transplants at Glasgow royal infirmary.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  [holding answer 21 November 1990]: At the end of 1990 the waiting list for patients for bone marrow transplants at Glasgow royal infirmary was 31.
  588
  Mr. Galbraith
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many patients in the last year have died while awaiting bone marrow transplantation at Glasgow royal infirmary.

  Mr. Michael Forsyth
  [holding answer 21 November 1990]: During 1990, a total of seven patients died while awaiting bone marrow transplantation at Glasgow royal infirmary.

  Chemical Incinerators
  Dr. Godman
  To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what advice he offers to local authorities concerning the granting of planning permission for the construction of chemical incinerators; and if he will make a statement.

  Lord James Douglas-Hamilton
  [holding answer 26 March 1991]: No specific advice is given to local authorities concerning the granting of planning permission for the construction of chemical incinerators. General advice and guidance on handling planning applications and other planning matters is contained in a number of circulars issued by the Scottish Office.

Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers-Read by the Bishop of Portsmouth.

The Lord Chancellor: Leave of Absence
The Lord Chancellor (Lord Mackay of Clashfern): My Lords, before the commencement of business, I take the opportunity to inform the House that I have been invited to take part in the enthronement of the Archbishop of Canterbury on Friday 19th April. Accordingly, I trust that the House will agree to grant me leave of absence for Friday 19th April.

Royal Assent
2.37 p.m.
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, I have to notify the House, in accordance with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that the Queen has signified her Royal Assent to the following Act:
Community Charges (General Reduction) Act.

Water Charges
Lord Dean of Beswick Lord Dean of Beswick asked Her Majesty's Government:
What level of increase they expect in water charges for the 1991–92 financial year.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment (Baroness Blatch): My Lords, the Director General of Water Services, the economic regulator for the water industry, has announced that average household water and sewerage charges in England and Wales will be £156 from 1st April 1991. That represents an average increase of 15.5 per cent. over the 1990–91 average charge of £135. Individual companies' increases are subject to limits prescribed in their instruments of appointment and set according to their investment requirements.
Lord Dean of Beswiclk: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that detailed Answer. She must be aware that within that average figure some water users in this country will have inflicted on them an increase of nearly 27 per cent. Does the Minister agree that that is a substantial increase and is contrary to the Government's own policy of reducing inflation? Can the Minister confirm or deny that the area chairmen of the watchdog committees will receive an increase in remuneration of 33 per cent. from 1st April? Does the Minister agree that for that increase also to be borne by the water users of those areas, is disgraceful? In view of that, can she tell me what privatisation has done for the people in these areas?
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I am not aware of the increase for the water companies' chairmen and I shall
1214
therefore have to write to the noble Lord on that question. As a result of privatisation, investment by the water industry in England and Wales is expected to rise by over one-third in real terms this year and by a further 9 per cent. next year. That high level of investment will be maintained until 1994–95. That contrasts with a cut in investment on sewerage systems of 45 per cent. in real terms and a cut in water supply investment of 9 per cent. in real terms when the Labour Party was in power.
Lord Elliott of Morpeth: My Lords, as the chairman of a water company I speak with some feeling. Is my noble friend appreciative of the fact that for quite a number of years water companies—and before privatisation, water authorities also—were asked by governments of both major parties to keep their charges down? They did so to the detriment of investment which should have been made then and which most essentially should be made now because of European standards. That is the main reason for the increased charges.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, my noble friend makes an important point. It is absolutely essential that charges are linked to investment programmes. The K factor formula recognised the enormous backlog of work that needed to be completed. Much of that backlog goes back beyond the election of this present Government, to the previous government.
Lord Molloy: My Lords, can the Minister give some details about what the noble Lord has just said concerning the massive neglect from about 50 or 60 years ago right up until the date of privatisation? Can she also tell us about the wonderful changes that have since taken place? No one has yet heard of these things.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I gave a specific example of how cuts had taken place prior to privatisation and how investment is now almost spectacular in comparison. I can tell 1he noble Lord that £28 billion will be spent by water companies—
Lord Molloy: My Lords, the money "will be spent"?
Baroness Blatch:—and has started to be spent, as a result of privatisation and the freeing-up of artificially low charges.
Lord Dean of Beswick: My Lords, the Minister referred to the K factor which I clearly understand to be the additional money to be raised for development. Can the Minister tell the House what proportion of the billions of pounds which she mentioned is for further investment will come from the shareholders? As regards the answer to my first supplementary question on the 33.5 per cent. increase, the Minister must be aware that the chairmen and directors of these newly privatised water companies have already awarded themselves salary increases far in excess of what one would normally expect of people who behave reasonably. On that basis, if the Minister finds that the chairmen of the watchdog committees are to have an increase of 33.5 per cent., will she do her best

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to prevent the chairmen and directors of those companies using that as a criteria for a further massive increase which will have to be paid for by water users?
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, salary increases are very much a matter for the shareholders. There will continue to be downward pressure on the companies to be efficient and to make sure that the moneys that they spend are used to good effect. All shareholders, in addition to having invested their own moneys, are also consumers of the water provided. Therefore, they are also paying charges.

The Social Fund: Administration Cost
2.42 p.m.
Lord Stallard Lord Stallard asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether, in their view, the Social Fund is providing value for money when £61 million was spent administering benefit expenditure of £198 million in 1988–89.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Social Security (Lord Henley): My Lords, yes, although we are always seeking ways of providing greater value for money. However, I must add that it is misleading to make direct comparisons between the administrative costs of specific benefits without considering the individual nature of each benefit.
Lord Stallard: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer, although I doubt whether it is factually correct. Is he aware that the Social Fund is the most expensive benefit administered by the DSS? It is estimated that in 1988–89 the cost of administering the Social Fund was £61 million—about one-third of the total expenditure—yet at the same time, according to the report of the National Audit Office, the people who needed the benefit most were not getting it, as the fund was £40 million under-spent in that same year. Is the noble Lord further aware that there is a growing indebtedness to the fund by people who have been unable to repay their loans? How much is that costing at present? How much is owed and what will be the cost of recovery?
Lord Henley: My Lords, I accept the figure given by the noble Lord that in 1988–89 administration cost some 31 per cent. of the fund. In 1989-90, the last year for which I have records, the figure was some 32 per cent. However, its predecessor, the single payments scheme, cost a similar percentage to administer. The noble Lord must remember that any discretionary scheme is bound to be more expensive to administer than other benefits. It is important to remember that the fund deals with a wide variety of people in many different circumstances and with very diverse needs. The fund therefore has to be staffed at a level which enables it to respond quickly and flexibly to the wide variety of demands that may be made upon it.
Lord Carter: My Lords, can the Minister explain why a scheme which costs 31p in every pound of benefit to administer can reject nearly 800,000
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applications from the poorest people in society? On many occasions the reason for rejection is that the applicants are too poor. Is it a question of targeting and more target practice?
Lord Henley: My Lords, there are occasions when loans are rejected on the grounds that the applicants will find it difficult to repay the loan. But that happens only on rare occasions.
Lord Carter: My Lords, 23,000 applications represents a substantial number of very poor people who cannot get help from the fund.
Lord Henley: My Lords, as I said, it is a discretionary scheme. It would not be right if someone who could not afford to repay the loan could then embark on further debt.
Lord Stallard: My Lords, if the noble Lord reads the report, reads between the lines of the report and visits one or two offices, he will see that, in this age when consultation is fashionable, there is almost an argument for consulting someone about the wisdom of going back to the system of grants instead of loans.
Lord Henley: My Lords, the Social Fund has both grants and loans. I am sure that the noble Lord would not suggest that we go back to the old single payments which had grown completely out of control. It would not be right to spend taxpayers' money in that way.

VAT and Energy Conservation
2.46 p.m.
Lord Hatch of Lusby Lord Hatch of Lusby asked Her Majesty's Government:
What is their policy concerning the application of value added tax to energy-conserving goods.
The Minister of State, Department of Trade and Industry (Lord Hesketh): My Lords, VAT is a broad-based tax on expenditure in the domestic economy and most items, including energy conserving goods, are chargeable with VAT.
Lord Hatch of Lusby: My Lords, I realise that that is the position at the moment. However, is the noble Lord aware that in the fourth quarter of last year energy use in this country, despite the recession, increased by 1.8 per cent., thus increasing carbon dioxide emissions? Is he further aware that over the past two years sales of energy conserving equipment have dropped by 28 per cent. and the Office for Energy Efficiency has had its budget cut? I realise that the budget has now been restored. However, would it not be in the interests of their own environment White Paper if the Government were to encourage energy conserving equipment by reducing or abolishing VAT on it?
Lord Hesketh: My Lords, the first problem with the noble Lord's suggestion is that it is very difficult to define "energy conserving". I was in East Germany last week; I saw a number of very small cars called Trabants. They are very slow, use very little fuel and create a huge amount of pollution. But it would be

1217
possible to claim that they save energy. However, it is also fair to say that the failure to raise vehicle excise duty in the past six years and the increase in the differential on unleaded fuel, which now runs at some 18.5 pence per gallon, should be seen as the reverse of the point behind the noble Lord's Question. By increasing fiscal prices one can try to achieve the same effect of encouraging people to reduce pollution and, in the case of diesel, to reduce fuel consumption.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, is it not a fact that, unlike the Trabant car seen by the noble Lord in East Germany, many products are plainly energy saving? Do not the Government believe that it would he in their interests and in the interests of the environment to reduce or zero rate VAT on those products? Will the Minister come clean? Perhaps the Government would like to act but are constrained by the EC which does not want further extensions of zero rating.
Lord Hesketh: My Lords, I am more than happy to come clean on the matter. I should point out to the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, that I did not actually drive a Trabant. Indeed, I am not sure that I would have fitted into one. However, it is true to say that the EC sixth VAT directive allows only those VAT reliefs in force at 31st December 1975 to be maintained and precludes the introduction of new zero rates.
Lord Williams of Elvel: My Lords, given the fact that the price differential policy is accepted by the Minister, would it not be possible to proceed in another way; for example, by building on the experience of lower lead-free petrol charges compared to those for leaded petrol as regards other energy saving goods, thereby effecting what my noble friend wants?
Lord Hesketh: My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Williams, will accept that there are many other taxes raised by the Treasury. There is a great deal to be said for the simplicity of the current VAT arrangements as opposed to making them more complicated.
Lord Hatch of Lusby: My Lords, the Minister is a little disingenuous when he suggests that there is some dubiety about what is energy saving. Of course, it is possible that there is. Indeed, the Government themselves have listed certain equipment as being energy saving. They have their own energy conservation office to encourage that policy. In view of the advice given by the Government's previous environmental adviser—namely, Professor Pearce—on the basis that the polluter pays, surely there is a very strong case (especially as regards the Government White Paper and the experience of unleaded petrol) for reducing or abolishing VAT on those items of equipment which can save energy instead of, as has happened over the past week, increasing VAT on this equipment and on other items by 2.5 per cent.?
Lord Hesketh: My Lords, I cannot believe that there is a finer example than the freeze on the vehicle
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excise duties over the past six years and the increase in taxation on petrol which results in the polluter—that is, he who uses the most—paying more.
Lord Beloff: My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister agree that the noble Lord, Lord Hatch of Lusby, might set an example by conserving his own energy and not inflicting speeches upon this House during Question Time or during the early hours of the morning?
Lord Hesketh: My Lords, I can only say that I believe it is quite impossible to direct environmental strategy by using the blunt tool of VAT on its own.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, I should like the Minister to confirm and underline his previous reply to me. Even if he and the Government agreed with my noble friend Lord Hatch that it was desirable to zero rate any energy saving appliances, would they not be constrained from so doing by EC directives and regulations?
Lord Hesketh: My Lords, I am almost certain that neither I nor the Government will be agreeing with the noble friend of the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon.
Lord Hatch of Lusby: My Lords, the Minister is concentrating solely on cars and petrol. However, there are many other machines and much equipment which use energy. Indeed, many such items were mentioned in the Government's White Paper. Therefore, will he not agree that if the Government are serious about the expressions of intent which they declared in that White Paper, they would be doing something to reduce the cost of such items and to encourage people to buy energy saving equipment?
Lord Hesketh: My Lords, I am sure that if Members of the Benches opposite adhere to the clarion call of the noble Lord, Lord Hatch, they will, in the unlikely event that they ever receive the endorsement of the country at a general election, be introducing the imposition of VAT on domestic fuel.

Tay Road Bridge Order Confirmation Bill
2.54 p.m.
Brought from the Commons, read a first time, and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act 1936), deemed to have been read a second time and reported from the Committee.

British Railways (No. 2) Bill
Read a second time, and committed to a Select Committee.
Greater Manchester (Light Rapid Transit System) (No. 5) Bill [H.L.]
Read a third time, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

British Waterways Bill [H.L.]
2.55 p.m.
Earl Jellicoe: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.
Perhaps I may begin with an apology and a declaration of interest. My apology is for unpunctuality and tardiness in that we are having the Second Reading debate at what is possibly not the most convenient of times. My excuse is that until very recently I thought that I would be obliged to be in Southern Africa until the beginning of this week.
The interest which I declare is that of being, and having been for a good many years, the president of the Kennet and Avon Canal Trust—a trust which I can proudly claim has done a great deal, in conjunction of course with British Waterways, to restore the canal which Her Majesty the Queen reopened last August on a very happy summer occasion.
Before I turn to the Bill itself, I should like to emphasise the importance of the national asset represented by British Waterways. That is not, I fear, always fully appreciated. The board is responsible for no less than 2,000 miles of inland waterway, in addition to 1,500 miles of continuous footpaths in England, Scotland and Wales and for their associated harbours, docks and estates.
The range of the board's responsibilities and activities is very wide. Let us consider, for example, leisure and tourism. Over 25,000 power pleasure craft use the canal network. Moreover, on average 42,000 boaters and 300,000 anglers ply the waterways every month. Additionally, the amazing total of 125 million visits are made to those waterways each year. There is considerable scope for much more development of tourist and leisure activities on our waterways. There is also the example of freight. Four million tonnes a year of freight is moved on the waterways network. That is the equivalent of taking 200,000 heavy lorries off of our roads and it represents a clear capacity for the further growth of freight traffic. Another responsibility of the board is land drainage, valued at over £20 million a year.
However, the canals and waterways do not only stand for pleasure, leisure, freight movement and land drainage; they also have an enormous environmental value and potential. The canals traverse, and indeed often enhance, the beauty of some of the loveliest countryside in Britain. They pass through the centre of many of our greatest cities and about 2,000 of their waterway buildings and structures are listed as being of special architectural and historic interest.
Our waterways scene, therefore, offers very exciting opportunities, which I am glad to say the British Waterways Board is taking, for attractive schemes of urban development. I cite as an example some of the important schemes which are already in hand, some of which are very close to us. I refer to those in Limehouse and Paddington and, further afield, in Leeds and Sheffield.
So much then for British Waterways Board's portfolio, actual and potential. What of the Bill itself?
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It is of course a private Bill promoted by the British Waterways Board. As such it will go, after this Second Reading—to which I hope and anticipate your Lordships will agree—to a Select Committee, chaired by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brightman. Of course, it will be for that committee and not for us to consider the detailed provisions of the Bill and the 19 or so petitions which have been made against it. I shall, therefore, confine myself at this stage to making some general observations and the odd more personal aside.
At the start I wish to state clearly that a prime purpose of the Bill is safety: the need to safeguard not merely the lives and property of those who live near the canal network, but, equally important, the need to safeguard the lives of those who travel, work, cycle or fish on the network. Part II is designed to secure the first objective—the safety of the lives and property of those by or near the canals. The danger of a breach in some of the 200-year canal banks can be real with the danger of a serious flooding accident. There have been some potentially serious near misses in the past few years.
At present, as the MMC emphasised in its report of May 1987, British Waterways has no statutory right of access across private property to enable it to carry out what may be urgently needed repairs and maintenance. The waterways board's primary purpose in the Bill is to secure the right of entry to third party land—in an emergency, but only in an emergency, without notice, otherwise with due and proper notice, with the possibility of objections to that notice and a provision for the payment of compensation for any damage which may have been caused in the course of the work being carried out. All that is contained in Clauses 3 to 11, and in my view the powers sought are in principle right and unobjectionable.
The other important safety aspects relate to the boats themselves and those who travel in them. Many boats use the canal system, be they boats carrying freight, pleasure boats or houseboats. Safety again is no small matter. There have been 2,000 fires on boats on our inland waterways during the past six years, with 13 deaths and many hundreds of injuries. That is why in Clauses 12 to 22 and Schedules 1 and 2 the board seeks powers which will provide for the better regulation and management of our waterways network.
As traffic on our canals and inland waterways increases, and it is increasing steadily, such regulation is clearly and urgently required. Thus Clause 12 and Schedule 1 contain the standard terms on which in future houseboat certificates will be issued. The benefit for the owners is that there will now be a set of standard terms and British Waterways has told me that it intends to offer three-year, five-year or seven-year security of tenure for certificated moorings. In effect, those who live in houseboats will be placed in a position similar to those who live in caravans under the provisions of the Mobile Homes Act 1963. For its part, the other major clause in Part II (Clause 13) provides that the issue and validity of certificates, be it for houseboats or pleasure boats, will be subject to three important provisions. First, that the vessel

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complies with the standards applicable to its class; secondly, that there is adequate third party insurance; and, thirdly, that the proposed mooring is acceptable to the waterways manager.
Those of your Lordships who have read the petitions against the Bill will know that some of the provisions of Clauses 12 and 13, and elsewhere in this part of the Bill, have aroused some disquiet. Those petitions, and there are 19, will of course be carefully and impartially examined by the Select Committee. On Second Reading I shall confine myself to making just two general observations.
There is the anxiety that some who live in houseboats will not be able to meet the requirements and that that will add to the plight of the homeless in our cities. In London, for example, the waterways board believes that there may be upwards of 200 residential boats, some of which may be illegally moored. Clearly, there is a dilemma here. On the one hand, those houseboats, many in all probability unlawfully moored, may be unsafe, or they may be causing pollution or obstructing navigation. On the other hand, neither the board nor anyone else would wish unnecessarily to acid to the problem of London or inner city homelessness. The waterways board has been looking at that problem carefully and sympathetically. It is its intention to invite those concerned to register their need for permanent moorings by a certain date and place them on a waiting list. Thereafter there would be a five-year moratorium during which those on the waiting list would be found permanent moorings on the canal system, or themselves find, or be offered, alternative accommodation on land. In both cases the assistance and co-operation of the local authorities will be much needed and will be sought.
My second observation is this: a common theme running through the petitions on this part of the Bill is that those refused certificates of compliance with standards should be given the right of appeal. That seems only just to me and it is the intention of the board—I am authorised to say this by the board—to table an amendment providing for that before the Select Committee. Likewise, a number of the petitioners have called for statutory consultation by the board—for example, with the Inland Waterways Amenity Advisory Council—before standards for the various classes of boats are altered, and possibly about the timing of their introduction. I have some considerable sympathy with those suggestions which will be incorporated in the Bill.
Perhaps I may add one further purely personal comment. It relates to Clause 17(2) which has, I am told, a highly respectable legal parentage, but its wording might at least to me justify and even encourage what I would politely term a "sugar off" attitude on the part off f the board's charming and benevolent officers.
So much for Part III. I wish to comment on only two aspects of the Bill at this stage, because I realise that this is just before the Easter holidays and that some of your Lordships, although I fear not I, had a rather late night in your Lordships' House yesterday. I wish to comment first on Clause 23. I spoke at the
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outset of my remarks about the board's ample portfolio of splendid landscape and historic buildings. They include, for example, some beautiful aqueducts on the canal that I know best. I am glad to know that the chairman of the board and his team are fully conscious of their great architectural, historic and environmental heritage. Equally, I am glad, albeit not surprised, that under Clause 23 the board now accepts on a voluntary basis—it need not have—important new environmental and recreational responsibilities, the provisions being based on Section 8 of the Water Act 1989, as recommended by the Environment Select Committee of the other place. I am or course aware that some have stigmatised subsection (5) of the clause as an escape clause. That is not so, at least in my view. Enforcement can be provided, and no doubt if necessary will be provided, by ministerial direction.
My second observation relates to Clause 25. The purpose behind it is clear. It would allow the board, as Section 1 of the Transport Act 1981 allows British Rail, to hive off subsidiary businesses, such as hotels, for example, to release capital for investment in its mainline business—the canals themselves. British Waterways has a prime need for more capital, as I am only too acutely aware from my experience of the Kennet and Avon canal. It has a backlog, for example, of £65 million of really critical arrears of urgently needed maintenance and improvement to our main waterways. So if the waterways boa rd can create subsidiary businesses such as hotels, develop them and then at the right moment sell them off and plough back the profits into the waterways then in my view so much the better.
However, perhaps I may be quite clear about one matter. The clause has nothing to do with the privatisation of British Waterways To make this crystal clear beyond a shadow of doubt, the board proposes to introduce an amendment to the Bill at Committee stage stipulating that Clause 25 will not permit the board to dispose of any commercial or cruising waterways or any towpath adjoining any such waterways. Such a clear-cut amendment should allay any fears that the Bill could provide for the privatisation of British Waterways by the back door. I know that the noble Baroness, Lady White, will refer to an Instruction to the committee, which she would like to see adopted, which bears on Clauses 23 to 25. I shall wait to hear her speech before commenting on that aspect.
I believe that I have detained your Lordships quite long enough on the eve of your richly deserved Easter holidays. Perhaps I may add in conclusion that British Waterways today is an active and go-ahead organisation. I have good reason to know that through personal experience. It has a clear business strategy; it has adopted modern management methods; and it rightly puts a high value on safety. It is, I believe, fully alive to its responsibilities to the community and, not least, to the scope for creating more opportunities for leisure, fun and tourism. At the same time, it is determined to preserve and, where possible, enhance its great landscape and architectural heritage. Much of this is implicit in the Bill which I commend to your Lordships. I beg to move.

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Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time.—(Earl Jellicoe.)
3.12 p.m.
Baroness White: My Lords, I am sure that we are all deeply indebted to the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, for the way in which he introduced the Bill. The information which he has put at our disposal as to amendments which may be proposed later by the British Waterways Board are most welcome so far as they go. We are gratified that he should have accepted the responsibility for introducing the Bill. We congratulate him very warmly indeed on the success of the Kennet and Avon Canal restoration, the most notable canal restoration in recent times. No one could be better suited than the noble Earl to deal with the Bill in your Lordships' House.
I know that several noble Lords wish to raise points during consideration of Parts II and III of the Bill. I do not propose to deal with either. I shall leave it to my noble friends or noble Lords on the other side of the House who may wish to speak.
It is encouraging that the British Waterways Board is prepared to meet those who are deeply worried about the present lack of the right to appeal. That was the train of thought in a number of the petitions. I have read every one of the 19 petitions. It is quite clear that there is very strong feeling indeed that proper arrangements for appeal should be made. That is satisfactory as is the indication that where appropriate there should be more consultation with IWAAC than is currently provided for in the Bill. The noble Earl is absolutely right to emphasise the importance of the historic as well natural heritage of the canals.
Despite the most recent encouraging progress in various directions to which the noble Earl rightly referred, it is important to remind ourselves that much of the British canal system is still largely a prisoner of its past. Noble Lords will be aware that almost all our canals were built between 150 and 200 years ago for the conveyance of heavy freight. It may not be so clearly appreciated that as recently as 20 years ago our inland waterways were firmly classified, together with their historic rivals British Rail, as the direct responsibility of the Department of Transport. No doubt it is entirely fortuitous that the two preceding Bills on the Order Paper today were the British Railways (No. 2) Bill. and the Greater Manchester (Light Rapid Transit System) (No. 5) Bill.
However, it was not until 1970 that the British Waterways Board, created in 1963, came under the aegis of the Department of the Environment. Much of the primary legislation which still regulates the activities of the board is to be found in the Transport Acts of 1962 and 1968.
In examining the Bill before us, we must recognise that contemporary environmental considerations, as well as the current emphasis on leisure and peaceful public enjoyment, are relatively recent. I believe that it is a reasonable assumption that the Bill will receive a Second Reading in your Lordships' House. The 19 petitioners whose submissions will be studied by the Select Committee in due course are mainly concerned
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with anxieties of pleasure boat or houseboat owners or users, or persons or firms engaged in various waterways services or businesses, some of them quite modest but mostly, I hope, successful, engaged as they are in such activities as the restoration of boats with historic value. The petitioners mention certain difficulties which will face them if the board carries out its proposals exactly as indicated in the present draft of the Bill.
Other organisations, including the Ramblers Association and the Cyclists Touring Club are worried about what they see as possible loss of access to certain towpaths by walkers or cyclists. I do not believe that we shall see turnstiles on towpaths; but plainly some of those who have access to towpaths which are not registered as public rights of way have apprehensions. I hope that these can be fully dealt with in due course. Some riparian landowners or occupiers whose rights may be affected are also represented among the petitioners.
I am sure that all these anxieties will be most thoroughly and scrupulously examined by the Select Committee. I am also sure that we warmly welcome the fact that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brightman, has accepted the fairly onerous post of chairman of the committee.
The proposed Instruction to the committee standing in my name touches on rather wider issues. Part IV of the Bill includes the subsections referred to by the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe. The valuable section of Part IV is the commitment of the British Waterways Board to concern itself with protection and conservation of the natural and cultural features of the waterways under its charge. That commitment is consonant with the strongly expressed recommendation of the Select Committee on the Environment of another place, under the chairmanship of Sir Hugh Rossi, in its report on the British Waterways Board issued in 1989. Paragraph 103 of the report mentioned particularly the comparable provisions of Section 8 of the Water Act 1989. I have a copy of that Act with me in case any noble Lord should need to refer to it. The report referred to provisions in the Act affecting the duties of the water plcs and the National Rivers Authority. It recommended that a similar duty should be placed on the British Waterways Board. That recommendation was accepted by the Government. However, the addition of subsection (5) in Clause 23 has undoubtedly caused widespread alarm and despondency among conservationists and voluntary organisations. There is no equivalent to this subsection in the Water Act. The same wording as that used in subsection (5) is however to be found, although in a completely different context, in Section 46 of the Transport Act 1968. Clearly, that form of words must be beloved by lawyers as they find it necessary to use exactly the same words more than 20 years later.
To the non-legal mind subsection (5) of the current Bill appears to be a "get out" clause which could permit the British Waterways Board to renege on its obligations in a way which would not be open to the water plcs or to the National Rivers Authority. Hence there is the need for an authoritative opinion on the

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matter. It is largely for that reason that I thought it desirable to place on the Order Paper a draft Instruction to the Select Committee. I hope that as a result of the considerable disquiet which undoubtedly has been felt by conservationists and voluntary organisations, no one will feel this to be an unnecessary provision. It is only right that we as a House should indicate to the Select Committee that this is a matter which should be clarified and shown to be a proper and acceptable part of the Bill. If the arguments that are presented seem to indicate the contrary, the British Waterways Board may decide that if the water companies and the National Rivers Authority can get on without this provision, it might be able to do so too.
There is also disquiet about the meaning and possible effects of Clauses 24 and 25. Clause 24 appears to bring in the designated "remainder waterways" in addition to the commercial and cruising waterways. I myself am still not entirely clear about the arrangements proposed by the board. As I understand it—the noble Earl appeared to indicate this—the board is prepared to offer assurances for the future as regards not selling off the necessary assets of a commercial or a cruising waterway, but it does not appear, on the surface at any rate, to have any such safeguard in mind for the remainder waterways. The remainder waterways are in some respects more vulnerable to potentially undesirable land disposals or developments. For them longer term considerations are far more difficult to sustain than for the canals which are registered as commercial or cruising canals. Yet some at least of the remainder waterways are looking forward to a future. I believe I am correct in saying that the Kennet and Avon Canal was at least in part a remainder waterway before the recent successful restoration took place.
Earl Jellicoe: My Lords, I hope I may interrupt the noble Baroness. I am afraid that a great many miles of the Kennet and Avon Canal are still classed as a remainder waterway.
Baroness White: My Lords, in that case I am sure that I can carry the noble Earl with me. He will recognise that longer term considerations are more difficult to sustain for remainder waterways but can be just as important for them. Misjudgments or mismanagement now or in the near future could have serious consequences for the ultimate fortunes of any remainder canal. A canal is a continuum. A particular development can affect not just its immediate surroundings but also the future prospects of the canal as a whole. I speak with feeling as the President of the Montgomery Canal Restoration Trust. Perhaps we could induce the noble Earl to join us. I offer him a vice-presidency at once if he will give us the benefit of his influence and experience.
As I have said, I represent a canal for which great efforts have been made. A vast amount of voluntary work has been put into the restoration of that canal over the past 20 years that I have been associated with it. We have great difficulties, not the least of which is that the canal crosses the border between Wales and England. Unless certain differences of view can be
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reconciled, it may not be easy to do what should be done with the canal, and to do what was recommended in the report of the House of Commons Select Committee. The report stated that the canal should be seriously considered for upgrading, mainly to relieve other parts of the canal network, particularly the Llangollen Canal which is, if anything, overused. However, I must not take up your Lordships' time pursuing my own interests.
Nevertheless I feel that the Bill as it stands does not pay adequate attention to the problems and potential of some at least of the remainder waterways. The Select Committee would do well to take that into consideration. Meanwhile there seems to be a good deal of concern and uncertainty as to what the British Waterways Board will be entitled to do with its subsidiaries, with or without the consent of the Secretary of State. Canalside developments are normally subject to planning consents, but the British Waterways Board is in a weak position in relation to planning proposals by other interests in the vicinity of canals. Unlike most comparable statutory bodies, the British Waterways Board has, as I understand it, no right to be informed or to be consulted by the appropriate planning authority. That unsatisfactory situation may possibly be rectified in the Planning and Compensation Bill which is now passing through another place. I understand that some steps are being taken in that direction. I hope that the position can be rectified.
The Private Bill procedure has obvious advantages for corporate organisations or statutory bodies with legal advisers at their disposal. However, it can be bewildering —I use that word advisedly—for individuals, small organisations or small businesses who might feel they could put their case at a public local inquiry without too much difficulty. However, the prospect of dealing with possibly hostile counsel at the Palace of Westminster may be quite daunting. It is incumbent upon the Select Committee to do all it can to clarify situations which cause anxiety to people who are not in a position to brief expensive counsel to put their cases for them.
Were I to be a petitioner concerned with the future fortunes of a canal or a group of canals, I might have been a little disconcerted to learn yesterday of a sale by the British Waterways Board, at the Mayfair Hotel, of a considerable number of canalside properties. I have the sale catalogue with me and noble Lords can see that it is a handsome document. I understand that sales in advance or at the sale itself have brought in some £5 million, which is a considerable sum of money.
I was delighted to be informed by representatives of the board that the sale was of capital assets and was not, as some people seemed to think, to meet Treasury requirements in relation to current expenditure. It was genuinely a sale of assets and buildings, or in some cases sites, which are not necessary for the immediate purposes of the board and which the board is convinced—and I have no reason to doubt this—can provide capital which can be more economically employed in other capital schemes which the board

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may undertake. In other words, it is not a question of providing money which will be lost in the maw of Her Majesty's Treasury.
I believe that there are misapprehensions among people who are worried about such sales. I was uncertain of that point when I heard about the sale yesterday to which there was a reference in a London newspaper. It is only right to say that I was told immediately prior to this debate that such anxieties are not justified in this case and that the board is satisfied that it will be able to use the financial resources which will now be at its disposal to better advantage than if it had retained the properties. I hope that this possible source of misunderstanding or misapprehension has been removed.
I conclude by saying that we must trust the Select Committee to report on the Bill in such a way that the uncertainties and anxieties which some speakers in today's debate may well touch upon will at least be clarified, if not removed.
3.32 p.m.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: My Lords, I am very pleased to thank my noble friend Lord Jellicoe for his presentation of this very worthwhile Bill and for explaining some of the history and some of the recent achievements of the British Waterways Board, all of which we should applaud.
However, an anxiety remains in my mind. It seems strange to me that although discussions took place in 1977 and again in 1984 and 1987 there remain a very large number of petitioners, who are to be heard by your Lordships' Select Committee. It is a reflection upon the British Waterways Board that in that time it has not been able to come to an accommodation with those petitioners, many of whom, as the noble Baroness, Lady White, said are individuals, small institutions and associations.
Furthermore, today, at Second Reading, my noble friend felt obliged to advise your Lordships that a number of amendments are to be tabled, most notably dealing with the right of appeal. It is a very late stage for the board to make such a gesture, which was on the cards months ago. As my noble friend Lord Jellicoe underlined in his reference to Clause 17(2), the board has adopted a rather cavalier attitude in regard to a number of provisions.
My noble friend quite properly said that the Bill deals essentially with matters of safety in respect of persons and property. He quoted some figures: 13 deaths in the past six years, a number of injuries and some 2,000 fires. However, whenever we consider safety—as we so often do in your Lordships' House whether in relation to aeroplanes, the railways or the roads, and we are now considering safety on the waterways—a balance has to be struck. Some of the provisions of the Bill, particularly in Parts III and IV and the accompanying schedules, tip the balance slightly the wrong way.
I turn now to those anxieties. I shall begin with Clause 13 in Part III of the Bill. The clause deals with conditions relating to certificates and licences. My noble friend was quite right to say that some disquiet
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had been evidenced and that there was a possibility of some homelessness. There are two issues here. The conditions of certificates and licences deal both with moored boats and houseboats, which are homes, and with cruising craft. On each of those scores it would appear that the regulations, which do not form part of the Bill but which someone seeking a certificate or licence has to comply with, are fairly onerous. Even as recently as 1987 the board gave assurances that what could be termed grandfather's rights would obtain. Then it suddenly changed its position. That means that the new conditions and specifications applicable to craft and equipment which will have to be met in order to obtain a certificate or licence may place a very heavy burden on owners of houseboats or cruising craft.
Marine surveyors do not come cheap. It has been put to me by a number of people that a survey could cost anything between £150 or £500 as a result of the conditions which the board seeks to impose. Compliance with whatever the surveyor may recommend could be expensive because some of the craft are old. The cost of modernisation and of bringing such craft up to the standards would be disproportionate to the value of the craft. That seems to be a means of edging some people off the waterways.
The Royal Yachting Association, which has discussed the matter with the board, told me that it is almost impossible to obtain third party insurance at a reasonable rate on boats which are more than 10 years old. Some boats used for cruising are Dunkirk-type boats and are certainly that old. If third party insurance cannot be obtained for such boats they have to come off the water. That is not fair. If the board wishes to impose such high standards as its regulations appear to demand, it should make some endeavour to secure economic insurance, which is not normally available.
I turn to Part III Clause 15(6) (a). We are dealing here with the removal of vessels by the board. It seems to me that subsections (6) (a) and (b) are somewhat arbitrary because it is not always possible to act within six weeks, particularly given the fact that many people who live on the waterways work abroad and may be away on a three-months' contract. It will be difficult to find them in some foreign part.
Again, Clause 19, which deals with the removal of vessels to permit works, and so on, is another fairly arbitrary statement. I quote from the Bill at page 11, line 2:
"the owner of such vessel shall within 48 hours after receipt from the Board of notice requiring him so to do remove the vessel".
It does not say how much notice the boat owner may have, which is a pretty cavalier attitude.
I turn to the schedules.
Paragraph 3 of Schedule 1 refers to determination of the certificate. The last two lines of sub-paragraph (2) (d) state:
"since the date upon which the certificate was issued, as a result of which it is no longer appropriate that the houseboat should remain at the site".

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That is a determination made purely and simply by the board and no alternative appears to be offered to the boat user or owner.
Again, in paragraph 4(1) of that schedule, dealing with the qualifications of the right to moor, the third line states that:
"the period for which that right subsists shall not extend beyond the date when the estate or interest of the Board determines".
On the face of it, that again is a fairly arbitrary kind of statement.
I take great objection to sub-paragraph (2) of Schedule 1 which refers to the sale of houseboats. It states:
"Where the holder sells the houseboat, and assigns the certificate … a commission on the sale at the rate specified in the certificate and determined in case of dispute by arbitration"
shall be payable to the board. That reminds me of the discussions that we had with regard to the mobile homes Bill and the way in which caravan owners had to pay premiums to sell their own property and re-assign their leases. In many cases the owner of the caravan site refused permission unless a new caravan was put on the site. Something of that nature is repeated in this schedule, which I consider is unfair.
I have referred to insurance policies for vessels. Certainly the whole of Part I of Schedule 2 is a prescriptive set of conditions which would be hard to sustain. I referred to the standards for construction and equipment in Part II of Schedule 2. To me that has a little smell of Rachmanism and harassment in that from time to time the board can make different specifications, without giving any further notice. If the owner cannot meet the specification, he is off the water. That also seems to be cavalier.
In my view, a place should have been found in the Bill for something similar to the grandfather rights—that is, some form of exemption for older and historic boats (I referred to the Dunkirk type of boat) and some of the sailing vessels which are 20 or 30 years old which cannot be brought up to a modern standard. These are matters which I have not raised with my noble friend Lo rd Jellicoe and I apologise to him for not having done so. However, no doubt these points will come up during the committee stage.
I have a lot of faith in your Lordships' committees on Private Bills. Such committees consist of a small group which is able to put at ease the individual who is unused to appearing before a committee of your Lordships' House and is somewhat daunted by it. Undoubtedly some of the matters that have been raised in this House will be examined in the committee and receive consideration there. This Bill is so worthwhile and important that I am saddened because the board so far have not moved very far toward meeting the quite proper and, I believe, reasonable hopes of its tenants.
3.46 p.m.
Baroness Nicol: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for his helpful introduction which has explained the provisions of the Bill much more clearly than I first thought I welcome the safety considerations which are behind some of the actions
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that are proposed. In the matter of residential boats, I share the anxiety mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, but I am comforted by the idea of a five-year moratorium. Many of the problems could be solved in those five years, certainly those which relate to houseboats and people who need alternative accommodation.
The noble Lord drew our attention to some valid points about Schedule 1. I confess that I have not read the schedule as carefully as I might have done. I agree that some of the provisions to which he referred appear to be very harsh. Perhaps we can be comforted with an explanation from the noble Earl at the end of the debate. However, the board certainly seems to me to be asking rather a lot.
I am in particular bothered by the provision which asks for a commission on the sale of a certificate. I am sure that there must be an explanation for it but I find the proposal rather odd. I wonder whether it is meant to cover administrative costs. If so, they must be rather high. I am sure that we shall receive an answer on that point.
I have only two main points to make. I support the Instruction of my noble friend Lady White. I shall not cover all the ground that she dealt with so ably this afternoon. Many waterways have become important wildlife habitats. They are important also to local residents as areas of tranquillity. Due weight must be given to that by the committee.
Clause 23 provides a basis for a sensitive approach to conservation needs. If the waterways board accepts the spirit of Clause 23 I believe that a solution can be worked out in most cases without too much difficulty. The noble Earl's introduction was very comforting and encouraging on that point.
The Council for the Protection of Rural England which is very skilled in this kind of exercise, supports the principle of Clause 23 but is concerned about some of the wording in it. It points out that British Waterways is the only national body with responsibilities for inland waters which does not have a duty to further conservation; a duty which was placed on the water companies and others by Parliament under Section 48 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981.
In August 1989 the House of Commons Select Committee on the Environment, in its report on the British Waterways Board, recommended that the board should be given a duty to further conservation along the lines of the duty laid on the water companies and the National Rivers Authority in Section 8 of the Water Act 1989. In its response to the Select Committee's report, published in February 1990, the Government endorsed the committee's recommendation. They proposed to take the first suitable opportunity of placing a duty on British Waterways to further conservation. I understand that British Waterways accepted that that would happen. The Bill appears to be such an opportunity. The British Waterways Board has agreed to include it in its own private Bill. Welcome though that is, I refer to Clause 23(5) which prevents the environmental duty from being enforced by a court of law. That is quite

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contrary to the duty imposed on the National Rivers Authority or the water companies under the 1989 Water Act.
The noble Earl said that there was no need to delete subsection (5) because the alternative to the right to take the matter to court would be that the provisions would be enforced by ministerial direction. I am not sure exactly what that means. However, it does not sound to me like a good alternative. A ministerial direction depends very much on the Minister of the day and how he feels about such issues, not to mention the pressures that may be placed on him from other sides. I would rather rely on the discretion of the courts in a situation such as CPRE has in mind.
I hope that the committee will examine that aspect carefully and decide whether or not the board should be exempt from the restrictions that are placed on the NRA and water companies.
My second point refers to the use of towpaths. The Cycle Campaign Network—which as noble Lords know speaks for the Cyclist Touring Club and the London Cycling Campaign with a total of about 50,000 members—has petitioned against the Bill. It feels that the Bill as presently worded could allow future action by British Waterways which would adversely affect its cyclists. I shall quote from its petition in paragraphs 7, 8 and 9. It says:
"Clauses 24 and 27 provide for free development of the land owned by the Board. At present cyclists can, by way of purchasing a permit for a set fee, gain access to specified sections of the Board's towpaths. In many urban and rural areas this is recognised as a valuable and safe alternative to the road network. The Bill is silent on how public access to towpaths would be affected in the event of land development.
"Clause 25 provides for the disposal of land assets. Again, the Bill provides no safeguard against purchasers developing land and denying access to others, nor does it address any means of handover from the Board with regard to the present cycle permit system".
It states that the powers embodied in the Bill are lacking in clarity, and that it is not expedient for the board to be granted the powers in Clauses 24, 25 and 27 without a clear determination of the board's primary and residual powers. I believe that the areas of anxiety which need to be explored are quite clear.
The solicitors for British Waterways Board have responded to the anxiety by suggesting an amendment to the Bill which has reassured the petitioners to some extent. However, the Cycle Campaign Network is still uneasy about the standards of maintenance which would be necessary for continuing cycle use, and about standards of reinstatement in the event of severance to connect new developments. It is important that these anxieties should be met. The amendment as drafted would cause British Waterways Board to retain towpaths. But it does not say a word about the standards of maintenance.
The petition of the Ramblers Association draws attention to the extensive use of towpaths by walkers and the need to ensure that not only are existing rights of way respected but also that the Bill should provide, as my noble friend Lady White mentioned in her address, that all access presently enjoyed by members of the public should continue even when the land is
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sold to developers. I am not sure how that can be achieved in the Bill, but it is worthwhile aiming at such provision.
Walking and cycling are recreations most easily available to all sections of the population. They can be enjoyed irrespective of income. They pose little or no threat to the environment. By encouraging walkers and cyclists away from roads to clearly marked and well maintained paths, we can make a significant contribution to road safety.
The towpaths in the care of British Waterways are an important element in the network of paths nationwide. It is essential that the Bill before us should end its passage through Parliament with no ambiguity about its pathway provisions.
There is no reason to doubt the intentions of the noble Earl who introduced the Bill or of the present management of British Waterways. However, we are all mortal. Managements change and so do pressures. Assurances made now are welcome but they must be underpinned by clear wording in the Bill. I hope that these anxieties will be taken on board by the Select Committee and by British Waterways and that suitable amendments can be agreed before the Bill returns to us at Third Reading. We usually assume that the conclusion of the Second Reading debate of a Private Bill in this House is the end of the matter. However, I remind noble Lords that that is not the end of the matter. It comes back at Third Reading. It has been known for a Bill to be thrown out at Third Reading if the Select Committee has not met the anxieties in the meantime. With that rather terse reminder, I end my speech.
3.56 p.m.
Lord Norrie: My Lords, my main concern is with the environmental duty in Clause 23. Over the past few years this House has put into effect environmental duties on a range of authorities, agencies and companies. I refer to the Water Act 1989, the Electricity Act 1989 and the coal industry legislation of 1990. More recently we have pressed for similar duties during the Planning and Compensation Bill. I was therefore pleased to see that an environmental duty had been included in the first draft of the Private Bill. Indeed, I tried to secure just such a duty on British Waterways during the Environmental Protection Bill debated last year, but it was ruled out of order and I could not therefore table my amendment. With an environmental duty already written on the face of the Bill, I had thought that I would be able to relax on that issue. Unfortunately that was before I read Clause 23(5). I fear that subsection (5) makes the entire environmental duty ineffective by preventing its enforcement by a court of law.
We have heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Nicol, that in February last year the Government endorsed the recommendations of the House of Commons Select Committee on the Environment. The committee stated that an environmental duty along the lines of the Water Act 1989 should be placed on British Waterways. There could be no reason why

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British Waterways should be any more above the law than the National Rivers Authority or private water companies.
The environmental duty of Section 8 of the Water Act 1989 is a free-standing statutory environmental duty, and therefore fully enforceable through the courts. The same such duty should apply to British Waterways. A strong environmental duty will also help to balance the sometimes competing interests of conservation and recreation of our waterways. Every time a lock gate is opened on the Kennet and Avon Canal—which is only half a mile from my home—40,000 gallons of water are discharged downstream. That can cause major problems upstream and to the levels of any adjacent river in particular during a dry summer. The noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, in his opening speech stated that Her Majesty the Queen had opened the canal officially last August at Devizes. However, the water level in the canal above Devizes was so low that the barge for the official opening had to be transported by road so that the Queen could open the canal on water.
A strong environmental duty will ensure that British Waterways must balance all future considerations. The likelihood of such a problem occurring should therefore be reduced. However, I do not understand the logic in firstly proposing an environmental duty yet rendering it worthless in subsection (5). In my view subsection (5) should be deleted from the Bill and I trust that its proposers will see fit to do so.
I turn briefly to the draft Instruction tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady White. It draws the Select Committee's attention to planning and development issues connected specifically with remainder waterways. While I share her concern I doubt whether the Instruction goes far enough. The clauses quoted in it have a wider effect which is also of considerable importance. I shall not seek to amend it; I trust however that the Select Committee will read our debate with care.
I enter a plea that the committee should look carefully at two points. The first arises in Clause 25 which empowers British 'Waterways to dispose of its subsidiaries or of their property rights. Once disposed of, any land involved could be developed outside the framework of the board's environmental responsibility under Clause 23 without the consent of the Secretary of State. I suggest that we consider the use of restrictive covenants in such cases.
The second point relates to Clause 27 which seeks to repeal certain unidentified rights of owners, lessees and occupiers of land adjoining the waterways which were granted in legislation prior to 1947 but are not currently exercised. It is not unlikely that to do so would remove existing constraints on the commercial development of a considerable number of parcels of waterside land. We must be careful in dealing with those cases for the reasons that I gave when referring to Clause 25.
I hope that the Select Committee will take note of all the points raised in today's debate.
4.2 p.m.
Lord Howie of Troon: My Lords, I support the Instruction tabled by my noble friend Lady White. In doing so I wish the Bill a fair wind. I hope that the promoters will pay attention not only to the Instruction but also to the comments made in the course of the debate. My noble friend Lady Nicol indicated the consequences of their neglecting to do so. I do not wish to underline them too heavily, but they should be noted.
A number of provisions in the Bill require close attention by the Select Committee. I wish to make a few comments on Clause 4. It is obvious that the powers that the board wishes to use in cases of emergency should be granted to it. I do not believe that anyone would dispute or argue about that. However, Clause 4 asks for more. It provides for the board to carry out routine maintenance—not emergency maintenance—on private land. Where such works cannot conveniently be carried out without such entry the board can be permitted to leave plant and materials on other people's property for a period of time. That time must be stated and it can be appealed against, but it is a powerful demand to make.
How does it arise that in respect of routine maintenance the board requires to approach its canals through other people's properties? The natural method of access would be by barge, carrying out such maintenance as is possible from the waterside of the canal. It is conceivable that on certain canals that might be difficult because the water is too shallow. It is also conceivable—I do not speak from personal experience, which is slight—that the shallowness arises from inadequate dredging. Is it the fact that the necessity to carry out routine maintenance from other people's property arises from the board's neglect of the waterways? I make no accusation; I merely ask a question. If that is the case the arguments in favour of allowing the board entry other than in case of emergency is greatly weakened.
In turning to Part III I agree with much of what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth. He appeared to have seen clearly the weaknesses in the draconian provisions of Part III. There does not appear to be any reference to consultation with the Inland Waterways Amenity Advisory Council. Can that omission be remedied, or can we have an explanation of why no such reference can be made?
Part IV of the Bill is more significant to today's debate. Many noble Lords have spoken about it, especially Clause 23. I wonder whether Clause 23 is necessary because subsection (5) appear; to render it useless. If that is so there is no point in having the provision in the Bill. Subsection (5) merely provides that the board will do what it must do. The remainder of the clause is a declaration of intent—no doubt a worthy declaration—but it is pious. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Norrie, that subsection (5) should be removed from the Bill. At the same time I notice that the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, made conciliatory comments on subsection (5). We must see how far they go.
I have two further comments to make about Clause 23. One is in favour of the board. I am pleased that in

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subsection (6) the word "building" has been defined to include a structure. I have pressed that definition upon the House many times in recent years. This is the first time that it has been placed on the face of the Bill without prompting from me. I welcome it wholeheartedly. In respect of Clause 23(1) (b) I must raise a King Charles's head. Those of my noble friends and other noble Lords who have previously heard my comments need not listen but the promoters of the Bill might. Clause 23(1) (b) states:
"have regard to the desirability of protecting and conserving buildings, sites and objects of archaeological, architectural or historic interest".
I have argued the case before. In this sense "archaeological" means industrial archaeology and not artefacts of great antiquity. The inclusion of the word "architectural" interests me. It suggests that a building of some kind might be preserved and protected not because it has archaeological interest or historical interest—conceivably, it could have both—but because it has architectural interest.
The canal system is an elegant structure but it is not noted for its architecture. There is no doubt that the system contains elegant pieces of architecture but fundamentally it is an engineering system. There are artefacts in the system which may be preserved not for archaeological interest, nor for historical or architectural interest, but for engineering interest. I should like to see the word "engineering" slipped in the Bill beside "architectural". I have argued the case in the House many times, hitherto unsuccessfully. I hope that the board will pay greater heed to me than the Government have done thus far. The point is a real one, though so far the Government have not agreed with me.
I have little more to say except to agree with much of what was said regarding the board's apparent desire to become some kind of property company, or that it appears to give itself certain rights in that regard. Clause 25 suggests that in so far as the board is divesting itself of a property it is also divesting itself of many of the hopes held out under Clause 23; unless, as the noble Lord, Lord Norrie, suggested, restrictive covenants are imposed. I strongly support him in that respect. In regard to Clause 25 I strongly support the comments of the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, who said that it was proposed to table an amendment on privatisation. I shall watch for that with considerable interest.
I support also the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Norrie, in regard to Clause 27. I shall not go into the detail of that; he adequately covered the point and there is no need for me to repeat it. Clause 27 takes away the rights that people have held for some time. It hardly seems proper for private legislation to take away rights which were given by public legislation. If rights are to be removed then they should be removed by means of public rather than private legislation.
Finally, I wish to endorse what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, regarding the work carried out by parliamentary committees. They are excellent vehicles for discussing projects of this kind. I have no doubt that they are much better than public inquiries. I have every faith that the committee appointed to
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discuss this Bill will examine the proposals closely; that it will pay deep and thorough attention to the petitions, and I sincerely hope that a Bill will be returned at Third Reading which will please my noble friend Lady Nicol.
4.13 p.m.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I begin with the usual disclaimer in speaking from this Dispatch Box. My party does not take a collective view on any private legislation. Anything I say now expresses my personal opinion and not a collective view.
I am grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, for introducing the Bill. He was very clear and already quite conciliatory. He recognised some of the objections likely to arise and had soft answers for a considerable number of them. Whether he succeeded entirely in turning away the wrath, I am not certain.
I have identified four major areas of anxiety in this interesting debate and should like to make a few remarks in regard to each of them in turn. The first relates to residential boats; the second to the environment and environmental obligations; the third to access; and the fourth to disposals, with its implications both for the integrity of the waterways network and for the continued public obligations of the British Waterways Board.
In regard to residential boats the noble Earl opened by agreeing that there should be a right of appeal in any dispute between residential boat owners and the board regarding temporary or permanent mooring rights. He very properly told the House of the proposal by the board to establish a waiting list for those who do not have legal permanent moorings and to grant a five-year moratorium for those on the waiting list. That may go some way towards meeting some of the anxieties expressed. However, I do not believe they meet many of those expressed this afternoon.
It is clear that there are far too many permanent moorings on the waterways network, particularly in urban areas. It is clear also that, despite the good intentions of the board for the future, there has not been any significant increase in the number of moorings, particularly in London. A major effort will be required to provide the necessary increase in moorings even to accommodate those who are already living on residential boats. I do not suggest that it should be an objective of the board to continue to increase the number of moorings so that all who may in the future wish to live on residential boats are accommodated, but there must be some kind of compromise. There should be somewhere in the Bill an obligation on the board to provide more moorings than are presently available.
Regarding the environmental issue, I agree with those who say that the very welcome echoing in Clause 23 of the obligation to further environmental protection is vitiated by subsection (5) of that clause. In its defence the board says that that protection from the courts is provided in the Transport Act 1968. I am a great admirer of the Transport Act 1968. I say that even in the absence of my noble friend Lady Castle who created it. What the Transport Act 1968 did for

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public transport and the concept of public service obligations, particularly for British Rail, is perhaps something that should be revived and could continue to stand us in very good stead. However, in environmental terms the 1968 Act is very much out of date. Subsequent legislation has never included the kind of protection from the courts which the 1968 Act had. The Bill should be brought up to date with current legislation and with current environmental thinking.
The third area of anxiety concerns access. My noble friend Lady Nicol rightly spoke of the needs of walkers and cyclists. Waterways are in a curious position: they are a combination—historically and to some extent presently—of commercial enterprise and environmental resource. There must be a balance between those interests. I fear that the way in which progress is being made on the waterways is not that there is no balance between recreational access and the legitimate business of the waterways—in other words, carrying goods by water—but that there is a failure to achieve a balance between recreational access and the activities of the Waterways Board, in effect, as a property developer. Thai is the real conflict which will have to be resolved in favour of environmental access. After all, these are public assets and must not be allowed to leave the public domain. The public must continue to be protected.
The fourth and perhaps most important issue is that concerning disposals. Again, some progress has been made by the board. The board says that it is willing to secure against disposal the main navigable channels of any commercial or cruising waterway or towing path—I am paraphrasing; it is more complicated than that—or duties under the Transport Act 1968. In other words the board is saying that it is prepared to protect operational land.
I entirely support the Instruction tabled by my noble friend Lady White which goes further than that. It refers also to the residuary waterways and those which are not at present required for commercial use but which are required for recreational use. Nobody knows better than the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, that they can be brought back into operation for cruising use. It is the integrity of the network which it is important to preserve. There is a mixture of waterways: commercial, cruising and the remainder. If the remainder were to go the integrity of the network would be severely damaged. To that extent I hope that the Select Committee will take very serious note of the points made by my noble friend Lady White and others in support of the Instruction.
The second aspect of disposals is whether they are to be used as a back door for privatisation. We had a debate on this matter when we were discussing the Water Bill in 1989. The way in which back door privatisation is achieved is by disposal to subsidiaries, which is made easier than disposal to outside bodies. The problem is that the disposal is not restricted to subsidiaries, there can be disposal to a single subsidiary which would then be a sitting duck for privatisation. The danger of privatisation by the back door is not to be underestimated even if there are to be restrictions on the disposal of operational land. Here
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again, the Select Committee must pay great attention to the points which have been made by noble Lords in this debate.
It is fair to say that there has not been a very friendly reception for the Bill. However, that does not mean by any means that all parts of the Bill are undesirable; it simply means that there are significant parts which need to be put right before the Bill passes through your Lordships' House. I urge the promoters of the Bill to take seriously the very gentle threat put forward by my noble friend Lady Nicol. As the House will know, she holds the Swanage medal; she also holds the British Rail Heathrow Link bar and she is now looking to another bar on her row of medals. If she is not accommodated, I can assure your Lordships that she will achieve it.
4.23 p.m.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, it may be helpful if I intervene to state the Government's view on the Bill. The Government have considered the content of this Private Bill and have no objections in principle to the proposals in it. We have made it clear that we want the British Waterways Board to be run as commercially as possible commensurate with its statutory duties, in order to maximise income and reduce dependence on Government grant. BWB's Private Bill proposals will give the board additional powers to manage its assets to best advantage.
The additional powers do not represent a plan to privatise the board. Indeed, I understand that the board has undertaken to amend the Bill to make clear that Clause 25 (provisions as to disposal of subsidiaries etc.) does not apply to operational land. Those provisions reflect the board's integrated business strategy which we endorsed last year and announced in our response to the Commons Environment Select Committee. The strategy, which was welcomed by the Select Committee in their 1989 report, provides for the development of the board's property assets, in partnership with the private sector, as an integral part of their management of waterways, thereby protecting their essential character. Increased income from property development car be ploughed back into waterway-related improvements which will enhance the value of the network for users and for the whole community.
The Government are also pleased to see included Clause 23 (General environmental and recreational duties). This clause fulfils the remit we accepted in our response to the Environment Select Committee to extend the provisions of Section 8 of the Water Act 1989 to BWB at the first opportunity. The clause has been drafted in consultation with the department. The board is already under a general duty to have regard to the desirability of conserving the natural beauty and amenity of the countryside. The British Waterways Board has made considerable progress in developing the potential for recreation of the 2,000 miles of waterways under its control arid improving access to them; conserving 2,000 listed buildings and ancient monuments; and initiating developments which enhance and harmonise with the waterways.

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It is only recently that, along with a parliamentary colleague, Sir Robert Durant, from another place, that I was privileged to receive a commemorative scroll from the British Waterways Board and the Kennet and Avon Canal Trust of which my noble friend Lord Jellicoe is president. The occasion was to commemorate a splendid project to restore the waterway for navigation between Reading and Bristol. While congratulating the Kennet and Avon Canal Trust and the considerable voluntary effort, I was also able fully to recognise the co-operation with that project of the riparian local authorities and the British Waterways Board.
The British Waterways Board's willingness to promote additional legislation on its own behalf provides a practical demonstration of its commitment to protecting the environment while pursuing plans for development of the waterway network. All the additional powers BWB is seeking in the Bill are entirely consistent with the board's waterway responsibilities. In particular, the powers sought in Part II (entry on land) follow a Monopolies and Mergers Commission recommendation that the gap in the board's powers to cross third party land to carry out emergency powers should be made good.
While, generally, it is a sensible set of proposals, aimed at providing more effective waterway management and control in the interests of the safety and convenience of all users, not all are uncontroversial. Concern has been expressed about a number of provisions in the Bill. I note that there are 19 petitioners. They will have the opportunity to present their objections to the Select Committee. The committee will be in a much better position than we are this afternoon to examine in detail the issues involved.
It is of course primarily for the promoters to persuade Parliament that the powers are justified. I hope that in the conventional way, the House will give the Bill a Second Reading so that it can proceed to committee for that detailed consideration.
4.27 p.m.
Earl Jellicoe: My Lords, I believe that I have the right of reply. In a way I rather regret that I have that right because so many detailed points have been made by so many experts that I feel I could, to use marine terminology, easily find myself torpedoed. It is appropriate at this hour to confine myself to remarks which do not take too long at this moment. I thank noble Lords who have spoken for their general if at times rather mitigated and muted welcome for this admirable Bill.
As noble Lords have said, and as my noble friend the Minister has just said, it is now for the Select Committee to get down to most of the detailed points which have been raised. I wish to preface the few remarks I intend to make by saying to my noble friend Lord Lucas that it is my understanding that the board's intention is to continue the discussions that it is having with the petitioners. For one reason or another the board may have been unable to start those discussions as early as it would have liked. The
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discussions are continuing at the present time. It is my hope, and I know it is certainly the hope of the board, that between now and the Select Committee tackling this matter, some of the 19 petitioners will feel that their concerns have been met and will be able to withdraw their petitions.
As noble Lords know, there has been a number of so-called "second house undertakings" given to the public utilities. I very much hope that their concerns will be met in the course of the coming weeks. Having said that, the anxieties which have been quite rightly expressed centred on a number of matters. There is the question of access and standards on which my noble friend Lord Lucas particularly touched. There is the matter of disposals and perhaps most important of all, the question of the environmental aspects of this Bill. Perhaps I may make a few very brief remarks under those headings.
The noble Lord, Lord Howie of Troon, asked why, save in a case of emergency, it is necessary for access to be by land. Due notice is provided for in the Bill where there is not an emergency. A right of objection is provided and there is also compensation. Access by land is now normal because of the type of equipment now used. It is heavier and is therefore not very easily transported along the waterway network.
As regards access by walkers and cyclists—I heard very well what the noble Baroness, Lady Nicol, said about the anxieties of cyclists—it is the general policy of British Waterways to encourage and, indeed, optimise the use of the waterways in every way possible, including the use of towing paths. Where towing paths exist they are regarded as being absolutely integral to the waterways system. Subject to the board's general duties and powers, I am authorised to say that the paths will be maintained as such for public recreational use by anglers, walkers and cyclists, and indeed by everybody who desires access to them.
As the noble Baroness knows, some towpaths are public footpaths or bridleways. They will always maintain that status. The others which have not been dedicated as public rights of way have been used for many years on a permissive basis. The board has authorised me to say that that use will continue. That is the general policy of the board. I am sure there are some detailed points on this matter which the Select Committee should rightly consider, but certainly that is the board's general intention.
I turn now to standards. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, made some very trenchant criticisms in his usual way about the Bill in this respect. I remind him and other noble Lords who have touched on this matter that a right of appeal will be introduced, consultation with the Inland Waterways Amenity Advisory Council will be written in, standards are being changed and also the timing of their introduction.
There will be a moratorium on waiting lists for those who may be threatened with the possibility of homelessness as a result of failure to get certification. It is the intention of the board to double in the next four years the number of approved moorings in this respect in the London area. It will not be an easy

1241
problem to solve—I am sure the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, will recognise that—but that is the board's intention. It will require help and co-operation from the local authorities and I express the wish that that co-operation will be forthcoming.
I also noted what my noble friend said about rather short warning periods. That, again, is a very valid point for the Select Committee to look into. My noble friend mentioned three other points. Insurance is a matter for the Select Committee. It is a very detailed issue and I would get into much deeper water than I should like if I were to go further into that. Commission on the sale of houseboats was a point which worried me when I read the Bill. The explanation and justification is that if there is substantial improvement arising from the board's investment and so on, the value of the houseboat or boat concerned will be enhanced. In that case it does not seem unreasonable that the board should be able to charge a commission. Again, that could well be considered at Committee stage. My noble friend also referred to historic boats—old boats, Dunkirk boats, and the rest. My understanding is that the board would like to give some flexibility in that respect. How that can be worked into the Bill is once again a matter for the Select Committee.
On the question of disposals I do not think I can say really more than I have already said. It is the intention of the board to introduce an amendment to make it crystal clear that there can be no question of the board disposing of its main assets—the main waterways—which are under its control. The Select Committee will have plenty of opportunity to see whether or not that particular amendment is adequate. It is an important point. I should like once again to say quite categorically—I say that with some knowledge of the board's intentions in this matter—that nothing could be further from its thoughts in Clause 25 than privatisation of its main business by some backdoor method. That is quite contrary to the board's intentions.
In conclusion, I turn to the very important matter of the environment, on which noble Lords have quite rightly dwelt. There is the question of the escape clause, Clause 23(5). This clause is consistent, as I understand it, with Section 106 of the Transport Act 1968 and with the responsibilities of the National Rivers Authority, the water authorities and, indeed, the sewage undertakers; which likewise are not liable to any civil or criminal proceedings, to which they would not otherwise be subject, purely by being in breach of their duties in this regard. It is the function of the Minister to regulate their performance. It will be the function of the Minister to regulate the performance of the board by direction, if that is thought appropriate, by code of practice or by whatever means. That is an important aspect. As a non-lawyer I jibbed a little at subsection (5) when I first read it, but I have set out its very respectable pedigree. It is a matter now for the Select Committee to look at in the light of comments which have been made from all sides of your Lordships' House.
Another matter is the Instruction suggested by the noble Baroness, Lady White. I appreciate her anxiety
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and I also appreciate her deep interest not only in the waterways but in environmental matters generally. I have a fellow feeling for her in some respect because I am a remainder man myself, as she is a remainder woman in Wales on canals. I hate the phrase "remainder waterways" which reminds me of remainder clothes that one takes down to sell for charity. I hope very much that we can find a more respectable and reputable name for distinguished canals like that in which the noble Baroness is interested—distinguished canals such as the Kennet and Avon.
As I understand it, nothing in Clause 23 would put at risk any British waterways; not least the remainder waterways in respect of which the board has quite clearly defined duties and powers under previous Acts and which the board is not seeking to modify by this Bill. Indeed, both Clauses 23 and 25 are caught up in the matter.
Land development in the vicinity of the waterways is an integral part of the approved business strategy of the board. It has—rightly, in my view—a jealously guarded reputation for sensitive development of its properties. Moreover, it has carried out such development in close conjunction with the local authorities and local restoration groups.
However, I appreciate the concern expressed by the noble Baroness and others. Although I do not believe that the Instruction is necessary, if' it is your Lordships' wish that it should be given to the Select Committee, I shall not argue against it. It is phrased in language that I believe is moderate and sensible, as one would expect from the noble Baroness. As I said, although I do not believe it to be necessary, I shall not oppose it.
Having said that, it only remains for me to express my gratitude to all noble Lords who have spoken in the debate this afternoon. I wish the Bill well on its way to the Select Committee. I believe that we have given that committee many aspects to consider.
On Question, Bill read a second time, and committed to a Select Committee.
4.42 p.m.
Baroness White Baroness White rose to move, That it be an Instruction to the Select Committee to whom the Bill is committed that in considering Part IV of the Bill, in particular Sections 23(5), 24 and 25, it shall take account of the need to protect from unsuitable development, either of the waterway or of land in close vicinity, canals currently designated "remainder waterways" which have potential for future use as cruising waterways or as areas appropriate for quiet enjoyment by the public.
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I beg to move. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

Electricity Industry (Rateable Values) Amendment Order 1991
4.43 p.m.
Baroness Blatch Baroness Blatch rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 6th March be approved [14th Report from the Joint Committee].
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, this order deals with two small technical changes to the working of the prescribed rates assessment of the electricity generating industry. It corrects minor flaws in the existing orders dealing with independent electricity generators and the three generating companies formed from the Central Electricity Generating Board.
Article 2 of the order amends the way in which the prescription of rateable value applies to independent generators which burn refuse as their energy source or are part of a combined heat and power plant. Article 3 of the order corrects a fault in the annual updating factor used to adjust the prescribed values of the three generating successors to CEGB, namely, National Power, PowerGen and Nuclear Electric.
Before drafting this order, we consulted the ratepayers who would be affected by it. They raised no objection to what is contained in the order. Therefore, I commend it to the House.
Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 6th March be approved [14th Report from the Joint Committee].—(Baroness Blatch).
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Houses in Multiple Occupation (Charges for Registration Schemes) Regulations 1991
Baroness Blatch Baroness Blatch rose to move, That the draft regulations laid before the House on 6th March be approved [14th Report from the Joint Committee].
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, these draft regulations put into effect a promise which was given in another place during the passage of the Local Government and Housing Bill in 1989, to allow local authorities to levy fees in respect of registration schemes for houses in multiple occupation. The purpose of doing so would be to encourage local authorities to operate registration schemes by removing a financial disincentive to their doing so. I beg to move.
Moved, That the draft regulations laid before the House on 6th March be approved [14th Report from the Joint Committee].—(Baroness Blatch.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Mercury Communications Ltd. (Rateable
Values)—(Scotland) Order 1991
Caravan Sites and Pitches (Rateable
Values) (Scotland) Order 1991
Industrial and Freight Transport
(Rateable Values) (Scotland) Order 1991
British Railways Board (Rateable
Values) (Scotland) Order 1991
Glasgow Underground (Rateable Values)
(Scotland) Order 1991
Lochaber Power Company (Rateable
Values) (Scotland) Order 1991
Scottish Nuclear Limited (Rateable
Values) (Scotland) (No. 2) Order 1991
Scottish Power plc (Rateable Values)
(Scotland) (No. 2) Order 1991
Mines and Quarries (Rateable Values)
(Scotland) Order 1991
British Alcan Primary and Recycling
Ltd. (Rateable Values) (Scotland) Order
1991
British Gas plc (Rateable Values)
(Scotland) Order 1991
British Telecommunications plc (Rateable
Values) (Scotland) Order 1991
Water Undertakings (Rateable Values)
(Scotland) Order 1991
Electricity Generators (Rateable Values)
(Scotland) (No. 2) Order 1991
Scottish Hydro-Electric plc (Rateable
Values) (Scotland) (No. 2) Order 1991
Baroness Blatch Baroness Blatch rose to move, That the draft orders laid before the House be approved [14th Report from the Joint Committee].
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, the 15 draft orders standing in my name on the Order Paper all relate to matters of valuation and rating in Scotland. They conveniently divide into three groups and, with your Lordships' permission, I shall deal with them in the following way.
I shall deal first with the order relating to industrial derating. The draft Industrial and Freight Transport (Rateable Values) (Scotland) Order 1991 and the draft Mines and Quarries (Rateable Values) (Scotland) Order 1991 would set the level of industrial derating to apply in Scotland next year at 30 per cent. That is a reduction of five percentage points from the current level and is consistent with the Government's intention of phasing out industrial derating in parallel with the moves towards a national rate in Scotland at the level of the national non-domestic rate in England.
My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland has announced a further reduction in non-domestic rates next year of £100 million, and this allows a further reduction in the level of industrial derating of 30 per cent.
There are 12 draft orders relating to the rateable values for 1991–92 of the so-called formula valued industries. These are mainly public utilities which are not valued for rating by the regional assessors in the usual way but for which the rateable values are prescribed. The draft orders before the House today simply revise the rateable values prescribed for this year to take account both of the new level of industrial derating and also of material changes affecting the value of each industry's property holdings.
The final order relates to the valuation of caravans and caravan pitches. Following the simultaneous revaluations in Scotland and in England and Wales, which took effect from 1st April 1990, it became clear that harmonisation had not been achieved in the valuation of caravan sites and caravan pitches with rateable values being significantly higher in Scotland than in England and Wales. In the interests of achieving harmonisation the draft order would increase the derating previously enjoyed by only certain caravans from 40 per cent. to 60 per cent. and also extend this derating to all caravans and their pitches. That would be with retrospective effect from 1st April 1990. I should explain that we see this as being only an interim measure, pending full harmonisation at the next revaluations in 1995.
The orders in the main merely update for 1991–92 existing provisions which apply in respect of this financial year. The exception is the order relating to caravans where we have acted swiftly to correct a lack of harmonisation in the valuation of these subjects. I commend the orders to the House. I beg to move.
Moved, That the draft orders laid before the House be approved [14th Report from the Joint Committee].—(Baroness Blatch.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Representation of the People (Variation of Limits of Candidates' Election Expenses) Order 1991
Lord Reay Lord Reay rose to move that the draft order laid before the House on 5th March be approved [15th Report from the Joint Committee].
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move that the Representation of the People (Variation of Limits of Candidates' Election Expenses) Order 1991, a draft of which was laid before Parliament on 5th March, be approved. The draft order increases the limits on candidates' election expenses at parliamentary and local government elections, to take account of inflation.
The draft order was approved by another place on Tuesday 26th March. The existing limits were set in April 1989. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State has power under Section 76A of the Representation of the People Act 1983 to vary the sum specified in Section 76,
1246
"where in his opinion there has been a change in the value of money"
since the last occasion on which the sums were fixed and when the variation is
"such as in his opinion is justified by that change".
After nearly two years, it seems to us to be reasonable to increase the limits. The retail prices index has been used to indicate the
"change in the value of money"
between 10th April 1989 and 31st December 1990, the latest date for which figures were available when the order was drafted. The level of increase proposed is about 13.6 per cent.
Increases in the maximum levels of candidates' expenses normally follow consultation with the main political parties and local authority associations. This occasion is no exception. The recently-convened Consultative Group on Candidates' Expenses (set up to look into the whole question of election expenses and consisting of representatives from the political parties and local authority associations, under Home Office chairmanship) took the unanimous view at its meeting on 29th January that the maxima at both parliamentary and local government elections should be increased to take account of inflation since April 1989, and that the increases should come into force before the elections on 2nd May. The order will, therefore, give effect to the wishes of the consultative group. In the circumstances, I hope that it will meet with the approval of the House. I commend the order to the House.
Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 5th March be approved [15th Report from the Joint Committee].—(Lord Reay.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Vaccine Damage Payments Act 1979 Statutory Sum Order 1991
Lord Henley Lord Henley rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 7th March be approved—[14th Report from the Joint Committee].
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the draft order increases the amount of the payment under Section 1 of the Vaccine Damage Payments Act 1979 by 50 per cent. to £30,000 for claims made on or after 15th April 1991. The intention to make that increase was announced on 27th February by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Social Security. In making the announcement, he stressed that the proposed increase did not represent a changed judgment about the safety of vaccination but merely our view that it is once again appropriate to increase the payment. I am now happy to bring forward the necessary order to give effect to that announcement. I beg to move.
Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 7th March be approved [14th Report from the Joint Committee].—(Lord Henley.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Lord Reay: My Lords, perhaps I may take the opportunity to wish all noble Lords and all who work in the Palace of Westminster a very happy Easter.

Llanelli Borough Council (Dafen Estuary) Bill [H.L.]
The Queen's consent was signified, and the Bill was reported from the Unopposed Bill Committee with an amendment
House adjourned for the Easter Recess at ten minutes before five o'clock until Monday, 15th April next.

  THE THREE GRACES STATUE
  THE THREE GRACES STATUE
  RENEWABLE ENERGY INSTALLATIONS
  RENEWABLE ENERGY INSTALLATIONS
  SALE OF CLOSED SCHOOLS: PROCEEDS ARRANGEMENTS
  SALE OF CLOSED SCHOOLS: PROCEEDS ARRANGEMENTS
  COMMUNITY CHARGE PROPOSAL
  COMMUNITY CHARGE PROPOSAL
  PAINT FOR HISTORIC BUILDINGS: EC LEGISLATION
  PAINT FOR HISTORIC BUILDINGS: EC LEGISLATION
  "YOUR CHOICE FOR LIFE"
  "YOUR CHOICE FOR LIFE"
  SEX EDUCATION IN SCHOOLS
  SEX EDUCATION IN SCHOOLS
  BARKESTONE CHURCH OF ENGLAND SCHOOL
  BARKESTONE CHURCH OF ENGLAND SCHOOL
  CAR TELEPHONES AND ALLEGED DRIVING OFFENCES
  CAR TELEPHONES AND ALLEGED DRIVING OFFENCES
  WAR CRIMES: INQUIRIES
  WAR CRIMES: INQUIRIES
  LEYHILL PRISON NIGHT STAFFING LEVELS
  LEYHILL PRISON NIGHT STAFFING LEVELS
  CYCLISTS: LIGHTING OFFENCES
  CYCLISTS: LIGHTING OFFENCES
  NATIONAL SAVINGS: MINIMUM DEPOSIT POLICY
  NATIONAL SAVINGS: MINIMUM DEPOSIT POLICY
  CHINA FUND: PAYMENTS
  CHINA FUND: PAYMENTS
  RNIB EMBOSSED LITERATURE SERVICE
  RNIB EMBOSSED LITERATURE SERVICE
  MORI RESEARCH ON 16 AND 17-YEAR-OLDS
  MORI RESEARCH ON 16 AND 17-YEAR-OLDS